From freesft at usa.net  Sat Nov  1 00:40:53 1997
From: freesft at usa.net (freesft at usa.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:40:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Software!!
Message-ID: <9711010941.AA13078@noc.fh-aalen.de>



Have you been looking for the best way to advertise your product, 
service, or web site on the Internet only to find that nothing seems to 
work?  At Selective Marketing we are giving away over $700.00 in free 
promotional software that will increase your business by at least 50% 
overnight. Come check it out at  <http://207.207.204.57>

Be sure to mention Rep # 6682 when calling...





From art.w at usa.net  Sat Nov  1 00:49:31 1997
From: art.w at usa.net (art.w at usa.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:49:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Artwork for Webmasters...
Message-ID: <199711011819HAA36164@post.tidalwave.net>




Dear Webmaster,


Hi, my name is Peggy L. Emmel with Nikki's Web Creations. 
We would like to offer our artistic talents to enhance the presence 
of your Web Pages. We specialize in custom graphics for your entire 
site to include, logo's, image maps, buttons, backgrounds, and web 
advertisement banners. <b>Several of our banners have been featured on 
Lycos and National Television!</b> 


You can offer your clients that artistic, personal touch that makes their
site stand out in a crowd!  Adding this kind of value to your sites, 
will bring you <b>more profits...and more customers as well.</b>


 Visit  <A HREF="http://www.nikkiscreations.com/artwork.htm">Nikki's 
Custom Graphics</A> to review our artwork.  
<b>

For more information on our services, or any other design needs, please
hit reply and send us your name, daytime and evening phone numbers along
with the best time to call. One of our Design Consultants will contact 
you, and send any additional information you may need.
</b>


Sincerely,
Peggy L. Emmel
Senior Design Consultant
Nikki�s Web Creations


------------------------------------------------------>


This message brought to you by :

          High Energy Advertising
          Internet Advertising Services
          http://www.high-energy.com
          advertise at high-energy.com
          800-955-6771

If you would like to have your business or service advertised via the
Internet give us a call !! We also offer Hosting Programs, Database, 
Website Promotion, Internet Marketing and Consultation.  
                               
Re-seller opportunities are available!


**********************************************************************
If you prefer not to be on our Webmaster mailing list simply hit reply 
and type remove.    You will be removed from any future mailings.
**********************************************************************

















From cary at t-1net.com  Sat Nov  1 01:11:22 1997
From: cary at t-1net.com (cary at t-1net.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:11:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Did It Really Happen?                                        Did The Holocaust Really Happen?
Message-ID: <199710240546.AAA29858@ryan.t-1net.com>


        Not according to the Jews in Kurt Saxon's documentary "The Bogyansky Mystery".
        
        You can read it at:

                                   http://www.kurtsaxon.com/index-jb.html

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If you do not
wish to receive any future e-mail from us, simply do nothing. Your e-mail address has been
stored and will never be used again unless you ask to be placed on one of our return mailing lists.
And you can only do this by going to Kurt Saxon's Home Page and opening the Atlan Formularies
 Spamming Protocols link and following the directions therein.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////





From billy at bingo.edu  Sat Nov  1 03:58:53 1997
From: billy at bingo.edu (west)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 03:58:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: money making opportunity
Message-ID: <199711011169RAA39602@post.usps.gov>



<<Just what you needed, just when you needed it!>>

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. Initially I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.

Sincerely yours, 
Phillip A. Brown



"Please Read This Twice!"

Dear friend,



This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE" you were randomly selected to receive this. There is no need to reply to remove the message, you will receive no further mailings from us. If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION, please do not click reply, use the contact information in this message. Thank You! :-)



Print This Now For Future Reference

The following income opportunity is something you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!



You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed program.. THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!




This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the program... THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever see.  It has demonstrated ability to generate large sums of money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever growing population which needs additional income.
	

This is a legitimate LEGAL moneymaking opportunity.  It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If you believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been waiting for, this is it!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your dream will come true! This electronic multi-level marketing program works perfectly every time.

Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start their own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire!  This is your chance, so don't pass it up.

OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and email. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-level business on line (with your computer).

The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial reports. Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the e-mail address of the sender. To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours! This is the GREATEST electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
Let's face it, the profits are worth it! THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!So go for it. Remember the 4 points and we'll see you at the top!


*****I N S T R U C T I 0 N S*****


This is what you MUST do

1. Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.  For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.  When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on your computer and reselling them.

2. IMPORTANT-DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you should.

 Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to the bank.

 When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product positions!


3. Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list, and save it on your computer.

4. Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the WORLDWIDE WEB! Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive, but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also. Another avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists. You can buy    these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses. START YOUR  AD CAMPAIGN AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME

ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK
DELIVERY.


REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
TANYA Inc.
2057 Westchester Drive
Silver Spring, MD 20902

REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTILEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT#2 FROM:
ATD
808 Patchway Lane
Austin, TX 78748

REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT#3 FROM:
LIFE LINE ESSENTIALS
1247 Westbridge Drive
Ventura, CA 93003

REPORT#4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT#4 FROM:
KLS Enterprises
5312 S.E. 30 Ave
Ocala, FL 34480-7524

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet could EASILY get a better response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example for the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5 ($5 x 10)
2nd level--10 members from those $10 ($5 x 100)
3rd level--10 members from those $100 ($5 x 1,000)
4th level--10 members from those $1,000 ($5 x 10,000)
THIS TOTALS------------------------------------------------------------------>$55,550

Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone got 20 people to participate! Some people get 100's of recruits...THINK ABOUT IT!

By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE...REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.

REMEMBER-Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!


*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY, so you will have them when the orders start coming in , because when you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

The check point that guarantees your success is simply this-you MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1! THIS IS MUST! If you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. lf you don't, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX because you will be on your way to the BANK! -OR- You can DOUBLE your effort
s!

REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front of a DlFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

NOTE: IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes.



*******T E S T I M 0 N I A L S***********

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work, you'll lose a lot of money. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial trouble like I was, consider this a sign. I DID!
Good Luck & God Bless You, Sincerely, Chris Johnson

PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks like piled up on the kitchen table?...ITS AWESOME

My name is Frank. My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail"! I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the t
hing didn't work...well, the laugh was on me!. Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was stunned. I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work...I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby. I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
Frank T, Be-Air, MD

(just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. I even checked with the U.S. Post office to verify that the plan was legal.
It definitely is IT WORKS!!!
Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received. I participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered off I had mailed over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash. Dozens of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their good fortunes! It's been WONDERFUL.
Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK


This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders OVER $48,000!!! I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better
Your success is right around the comer, but you must do a little work. 
Good Luck! G. Bank

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders. After that it got so over-loaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before
. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
Mary Rockland, Lansing, Ml

I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came... didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
D.Wilbum, Muncie, IN

This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Remember, when you order your four reports, SEND CASH. Checks have to clear the bank and create too many delays. Good luck and happy spending!
Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to know if the company is strong, will it be there when it's time for my big pay off. In this crazy thing there is no company intervention for management to blow it. Just people like me ordering directly from the source! Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been trying to fund to no avaiI so I thought; Why not give it a try? Well 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in. One project is funded and I'm sure the other will be soon!
	


We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

To get your new business started quickly contact a bulk emailer to mail out 100,000 letters at once. This will help get you off to a good start. Here are some good quality mailers, you can also look at report # 3 for good sources:
	
Smith International	        352-629-7695	FL
ALG Marketing	        704-617-6131	NC

























From mirror at funmirror.com  Sat Nov  1 07:22:25 1997
From: mirror at funmirror.com (mirror at funmirror.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 07:22:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Gift of Laughter this Holiday
Message-ID: <smiles@funmirror.com>


This Christmas give your family the Gift of Laughter.  The fully adjustable Fun House
Mirror brings smiles to everyone.  Thousands of Bends, Millions of Laughs!  And,
under $30.   Visit   http://www.funmirror.com   

Best regards,







From obwoods at arias.net  Sat Nov  1 12:46:34 1997
From: obwoods at arias.net (obwoods at arias.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:46:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REQUESTING PERMISSION
Message-ID: <199711012344.PAA04551@mt.arias.net>


                Let Your COMPUTER Pay Your Mortgage 
                  and Car Payments Every Month!

Greetings:

If you're looking for a way to earn additional income then 
I would like your permission to update you on a revolutionary 
software that can transform your computer into a  21st Century
computer-based business.

This is NOT an MLM or "chain-letter"-type software, but rather a
legitimate business you can run -- either on or off the Internet.

If you�re interested in learning more about this incredible software
and would like me to send you some "FREE" information please hit
reply and type in "send info."  I'll send it a.s.a.p.

Thanks for your time and have a great day!

Roger








From BeaCampb at aol.com  Sat Nov  1 16:44:29 1997
From: BeaCampb at aol.com (BeaCampb at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:44:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Fountain of Youth....
Message-ID: <199711013443UAA24202@post.epcc.edu>


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#ff0000"></P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ff0000" SIZE=5><B>FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH DISCOVERED?
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4>MAYBE NOT
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5>BUT THE RESULTS ARE SAYING
YES!

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4></B><I>ELIMINATE ARTHRITIES PAIN FOREVER!
<B></I>100% GARUNTEED
</B>Does not treat the symptoms of Arthritis.  It corrects the cause of it
<B>It'll change the way you live!

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY></B>Two ways to make money marketing this product:

Explosive growth and momentum.  500% growth in July, 500% in August, 700% in Septempter.
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5>Ignoring this could cause you to live in physical & financial pain for the rest of your life.  It's your decision.<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4><B>
CALL NOW!
(918)534-0450

or
E-Mail: EConnor at fullnet.net<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</PRE></HTML>

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZ





From pafeze55 at mandex.com  Sat Nov  1 17:21:22 1997
From: pafeze55 at mandex.com (pafeze55 at mandex.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:21:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: XXX Live Sex!!!
Message-ID: <199711013008XAA53989@post.scseng.com>


The PINK PUSSY CLUB is the HOTTEST site for XXX Live Girl SEX SHOWS!!!

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* A Massive Selection of XXX LIVE GIRLS!!!!
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If you take offense to this email & wish to be taken off our list simply email us at:
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We apologize for any inconvience.
5�





From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 01:56:44 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:56:44 +0800
Subject: Eugene Kashpureff in custody
Message-ID: <199711010755.IAA24125@basement.replay.com>



Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:41:13 +1100
To: aussie-isp at aussie.net, link at www.anu.edu.au, aursc at lists.ah.net
From: Adam Todd <at at ah.net>
Subject: [Oz-ISP] Eugene Kashpureff in custody.

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:40:20 -0500 (EST)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSCTALK Discussion List.  Open.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eugene Kashpureff, known for his redirect of the NSI web page, was 
apprehended this morning in Toronto by undercover RCMP detectives.

Pending a deportation hearing, he will be returned to New York to face 
Felony Wire Fraud charges that were sworn out against him after he had 
settled out of court with NSI in regard to their civil suit.

Early in the week Eugene relinquished control of the Alternic to an adhoc 
industry group.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is alledged there are 40,000 individual charges being laid agains Euegene.

It is strongly expected ISP's and DNS operators world wide will provide
support to Eugene through RSC organisation to ensure his safe return.

For more information contact the Author.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The advice offered in this email is not considered professional advice,
or it would be accompanied by an invoice.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Business Development, Technology Domain Registration and Network Advisory
Telstra Convery Member
Adam Todd                                 Personal http://adamtodd.ah.net  
Phone +61 2 9729 0565                     Network  http://www.ah.net
AU Root Server Confederation              http://aursc.ah.net
AU Internet News  mailto:internet-request at ah.net  with "subscribe"






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov  1 01:58:03 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:58:03 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <2d9fdee2822cc80bd98da311efbf2459@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v03102807b08075502b6d@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:48 PM -0700 10/31/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:

>Tim May wrote:

>>Read "The Millionaire Next Door" for tips on what millionaires (who
>>are of course the "barely non-poor" these days) are likely to be
>>wearing and flaunting. Turns out that most Yuppies driving BMWs and
>>wearning Rolexes are doing so on _credit_. Driving a Mercedes or BMW
>>has nothing to do with actual ability to pay bills.
>
>Perception, not reality, is what is important here.  A wealthy
>appearing person will generally fare better.
>
>It's true, however, that you are probably better off with proof of
>insurance than an expensive watch when being wheeled into the
>emergency room.  (Except for your privacy, that is.)

Those deciding on admittance don't look for Rolexes (besides, fake Rolexes
sell for about $29 at any flea market).

What an insurance card is really a *line of credit*. Or a *proof of
payment*. The admitting hospital knows they'll at least be reimbursed for
the initial visit and emergency treatment.

By contrast, those lacking such a card may use all sorts of claims to avoid
payment fo the bill.

I certainly agree that there ought to be better ways to tell a hospital:

"Look, I can and will pay for treatment if you admit me to your emergency
room."

Even better,

"And I'd like to pay the "preferred rate," not the 3-4x inflated price you
publish as your "list price.""

However, at this time it looks like a Blue Cross or Blue Shield or
equivalent card is the only recognized way to meet these goals.

Perhaps there's a business idea for some enterprising Cypherpunk. A prepaid
hospital card, good for a few days' worth of treatment (e.g., $5000), but
only at the better rates. This could even be done with Chaumian
privacy-protecting methods. There's an idea.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From lurker at ottoman.net  Sat Nov  1 01:58:06 1997
From: lurker at ottoman.net (lurker at ottoman.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:58:06 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710312229.OAA27632@comsec.com>



October 30, 1997
Web posted at: 9:34 p.m. EST (0234 GMT) 

ROBY, Illinois (CNN) -- Shirley A. Allen, a mentally disturbed woman
who held police off for 39 days with a shotgun and entertained herself
by listening to public radio, was captured Thursday and taken to a
hospital. 

"The good news is she's safe," said Terrance Gainer, Illinois state
police director. "The great news is nobody got seriously hurt or killed."

The standoff ended when Allen ventured out on the deck behind her
home to throw away food and water left for her by the police. On her
third trip, she stooped to cut a wire attached to a pail in which a police
camera was hidden. 

A trooper fired six rubber bullets at her, striking her two or three times
and knocking her to the deck, where she was captured. 

Gainer said that Allen, who wore a full camouflage suit padded
with a pillow and magazines, was examined at a hospital and
reported to be in good condition  was feisty enough after the
ordeal to scold police for their tactics during the standoff. 

Gainer said she is still in custody and will undergo a psychiatric
examination. 

"I think she's probably as relieved right now as we are that this
is over," said Allen's brother, Byron Dugger, who talked with her
after she was captured. 

Gainer said Allen asked Dugger to open his mouth to prove he
wasn't someone wearing a mask that looked like him. 

'They have zapped my head with radar' 

The standoff in this small central Illinois town began
September 22 when Allen, 51, brandished a shotgun
as her brother and sheriff's deputies tried to
take her in for a court-ordered evaluation. 

Allen's relatives were concerned because she had
become increasingly depressed and paranoid
since her husband died of pancreatic cancer in 1989. More
recently, she had refused to see or talk to her brother or her
86-year-old mother. 

In a letter to her mother in May 1996, Allen wrote, "They have
zapped my head with radar. I have swelling and inflammation of
the brain." 

She did not say who "they" were, but when police offered her
water after she was captured, she said "the helicopters" told her
not to drink it. There were no helicopters in sight, but she finally
drank the water after troopers drank some to prove it wasn't
poisoned. 

She told them she hadn't eaten or had anything to drink in three
days. 

Allen also talked to her daughter, Kate Waddell, after she was
captured. "But she wasn't quite sure it was Mrs. Waddell,"
Gainer said. 

Allen's case attracted the sympathy of many neighbors and
became a rallying point for some who called it "Roby Ridge,"
likening it to shootouts at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas,
as an example of overzealous law enforcement. 

Standoff cost taxpayers about $1 million 

Others questioned the expense of the standoff.
Gainer tackled that one  head-on at a news conference Thursday, saying
it was about $15,000 a day.   He estimated the total cost
of the operation at $750,000 to $1 million. 

Obviously relieved that Allen was taken alive, an
unapologetic Gainer said,  "But I don't think Mrs.
Shirley Allen is worth a cent less than that." 

Police tried to get Allen out of her green frame
farmhouse with tear gas, pepper spray and music. They
also tried to coax her out with a visit from her favorite
stepdaughter. This week, they began giving her food
and restored her power, which had been shut off
earlier, in a goodwill gesture they hoped would calm
her down. 

Allen had fought off tear gas by smearing her face with
petroleum jelly and withstood beanbag bullets by wearing
heavy layers of clothing. 

She apparently slept in a sleeping bag in the living room -- the room
where her husband died -- and had two transistor radios with earplugs.
Gainer said the radios were tuned to a local public radio station. 

Protesters gathered daily to support her and criticized the police. 

'Mrs. Allen is where she needs to be' 

"The good feeling is it's over for her. The bad feeling
is how she's going to be trapped after this is over
with," said John Powers, a neighbor and one of the
protesters. "We don't know if they'll treat her as a
person who is sane or as a person who tried to shoot
their dog." 

Although Allen fired at state troopers and wounded a
police dog sent into her home Sunday, "it would serve
no useful purpose to charge her," Gainer said. "Given
what we have known from Day 1, Mrs. Allen is where
she needs to be right now." 

Reporter Lisa Price and The Associated Press
contributed to this report.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 02:55:55 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 18:55:55 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <059ba8257a50981b642ca5005181f75d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711011024.LAA08905@basement.replay.com>



>I am a bit confused. A post to the list claimed that the fifteen year
>old who raped and murdered the eleven year old (both boys) had not
>met his victim on the internet, as initial media sources indicated,
>but on an 800 number phone-chat line.
>I vaguely recall doing a web search to find out the facts for myself
>and confirming the claim. Now I am watching Sixty Minutes on tv and
>they keep repeating the mantra, "met on the internet, met on the 
>internet..."
>Does anyone have the so called real scoop on this?
>
>Thank You
>

Does it really matter now where they met? They could have met at school,
in the park, at a christian day camp, in the back room of a gay bar,
wherever. As long as they both had a passing interest in computers or
even had access to a computer they met on the internet. 

"people are hitting on kids"
"people are sending kiddie porn"
"terrorists and criminals are using it to hatch schemes to kill kids"
"kids are using it to meet criminals and terrorists"
"kids are hitting on terrorists who send kiddie porn"

If I were someone who wanted to make the internet look like a place 
that needed STRONG governmental controls I would put the words 
terrorists,criminals,pornographers,drug dealers/addicts,
hate groups, or any other words that the american public has 
been trained to associate with fear and hatred in a story about 
the internet and pepper it with lines like " 10,000,000 children 
have home computers" and "its the children that lose out" and 
"no longer safe in the dangerous urban streets, children must turn to
the internet" and a few things about losing their innocence at a tender
age. Then I would call the peice "the secret war against our children"

The same people who rushed to associate crime with rock and roll 
music then later rap music, and the same people that rushed to 
associate bizzare murders with dungeons and dragons and then later vampire
role playing games, and the same people who belive that someone
who has unprotected sex with someone to get drugs is not at all 
responsible when they get aids, the same people that endorse cerfews
"to protect children" and agree that high school students should be
sujected to mandatory drug tests and locker searches will all run to
endorse any laws that the government wishes to place regarding "protecting
children on the internet" 






From s67e3tG8D at actrix.gen.nz  Sat Nov  1 20:40:37 1997
From: s67e3tG8D at actrix.gen.nz (s67e3tG8D at actrix.gen.nz)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Reduce your taxes
Message-ID: <S2zB3W7pnuy>


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From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  1 05:12:30 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:12:30 +0800
Subject: apropos list talk and our culture
Message-ID: <199711011312.NAA13437@mail.iso.port.ac.uk>



>I will admit to a guilty pleasure: the opening scene, where the BATF agent
>gets shot in the face, was delicious.

It is often said that American TV is utter rubbish, but
surely this would be the saving grace of such a programme.

I too experienced such an effect a few days ago, when exiting
a stretch of dual-carriageway I saw a car accident up ahead, I
slowed down to see what had happened and saw a police motorcycle
crushed under a car`s wheels, and the badly injured officer being
stretchered away to an ambulance, a grin spread accross my face and
I started laughing. A fine sight.

Of course this story, which, since it involves the injury (and, I sincerely
hope, eventual death) of a jackbooted thug, has a sad side to it, The police
bikes 
were being riden unsafely and without any regard for other motorists (they
were in a 
convoy of about 30 bikes presumably guarding some statist motherfucker), but
I would 
lay money that the driver who was hit by the cop bike is blamed and
prosecuted for 
the accident.

Paul Bradley, currently in limbo between accounts but always reachable
at paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk

                Paul Bradley
          paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
           SMS: +44 (0)410933621
  "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov  1 05:35:36 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:35:36 +0800
Subject: BXA Agenda
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971101132827.00a5b8d0@pop.pipeline.com>



BXA has published its semiannual regulatory agenda
scheduling the issuance of export rules for encryption,
dual use technology, Wassenaar implementation, 
communications intercept devices, and, a new one (to me), 
controlling access to source code by foreign nationals, 
among other banes.

   http://jya.com/bxa-sra.htm  (60K)

Here's the abstract for GAK:

-----

   604. LICENSING OF, AND EXPANSION OF NATIONAL SECURITY 
   AND FOREIGN POLICY CONTROLS ON, RECOVERABLE 
   ENCRYPTION SOFTWARE

   Abstract: This rule will amend the Export Administration Regulations by 
   imposing enhanced national security and foreign policy controls on 
   certain recoverable encryption to supplement the national security 
   controls on those items. This rule will also amend the EAR to exclude 
   recoverable encryption software from the de minimis provisions for 
   exports from abroad of foreign-origin software incorporating U.S.-
   origin software. In addition, this rule amends the Commerce Control 
   List by adding ECCNs to control recoverable encryption software 
   transferred from the U.S. Munitions List.

-----

FIM, all departments of the USG are required to pulished twice
yearly (April and October) regulatory agendas for implementing 
rules devised to breed FAL outside GovBot and LAM within.

See compendium of all agendas published October 29 under
"Unified Agenda" at:

   http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html






From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov  1 07:06:46 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 23:06:46 +0800
Subject: Call for Papers - 3rd USENIX Electronic Commerce Workshop
Message-ID: <v03110744b080e4971754@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: treese at mail-60.OpenMarket.com
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:07:02 -0500
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
From: Win Treese <treese at openmarket.com>
Subject: Call for Papers - 3rd USENIX Electronic Commerce Workshop
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Win Treese <treese at openmarket.com>

>From: ec-mailing-owner at usenix.ORG
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:24:01 -0700 (PDT)
>Reply-To: ec-mailing-request at usenix.ORG
>Subject:  Call for Papers - 3rd USENIX Electronic Commerce Workshop
>Apparently-To: <treese at openmarket.com>
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>Electronic Commerce is a rapidly growing area with global economic
>implications.  I'm excited to be able to say that we're putting
>together the Third USENIX Workshop on Electronic Commerce, and I
>invite your participation.  This vital inter-disciplinary field
>thrives from a cross pollenation of ideas and techniques from many
>areas, and this workshop will be a great opportunity for you to
>present your findings as well as learn about other latest results.
>
>So, mark your calendars!  The workshop will take place from August 31
>to September 3, 1998, and paper submissions are due by March 6, 1998.
>I hope to see you in Boston!
>
>Bennet Yee
>Program Chair
>ec98chair at usenix.org
>=================================================================
>
>Announcement and Call for Participation
>
>3rd USENIX Workshop on Electronic Commerce
>August 31-September 3, 1998
>Tremont Hotel, Boston, MA
>
>Sponsored by USENIX, the Advanced Computing Systems Association
>
>For more information about this conference, see the Electronic
>Commerce Website:  http://www.usenix.org/events/ec98
>
>IMPORTANT DATES
>Extended abstracts due: 	March 6, 1998
>Notification to authors: 	April 17, 1998
>Camera-ready final papers due: 	July 21, 1998
>
>
>PROGRAM COMMITTEE
>Chair: Bennet S. Yee, UC San Diego
>
>Ross Anderson, Cambridge University
>Nathaniel Borenstein, First Virtual
>Marc Donner, Morgan Stanley
>Niels Ferguson, Digicash
>Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corp.
>Cliff Neuman, University of Southern California
>Avi Rubin, AT&T Labs
>Win Treese, OpenMarket
>Hal Varian, U.C. Berkeley
>Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University
>
>
>OVERVIEW
>
>The Third Workshop on Electronic Commerce will provide a major
>opportunity for researchers, experimenters, and practitioners in
>this rapidly self-defining field to exchange ideas and present the
>results of their work. It will set the technical agenda for work in
>electronic commerce by enabling workers to examine urgent
>questions, share their insights and discover connections with other
>work that might otherwise go unnoticed. To facilitate this, the
>conference will not be limited to technical problems and solutions,
>but will also consider their context: the economic and regulatory
>forces that influence the engineering choices we make, and the
>social and economic impact of network based trading systems.
>
>
>TUTORIALS PROPOSALS WELCOME
>
>One day of tutorials will precede the Workshop on August 31.
>USENIX's well-respected tutorials are intensive and provide
>immediately-useful information delivered by skilled instructors who
>are hands-on experts in their topic areas. Topics for the
>Electronic Commerce Workshop will include, but are not limited to,
>security and cryptography. If you are interested in presenting a
>tutorial, please contact:
>
>Dan Klein, Coordinator
>Email: dvk at usenix.org
>Phone: 412.421.2332
>
>
>WORKSHOP TOPICS
>
>Two and one-half days of technical sessions will follow the
>tutorials. We welcome submissions for technical and position paper
>presentations, reports of work-in-progress, technology debates, and
>identification of new open problems. Birds-of-a-Feather sessions in
>the evenings and a keynote speaker will round out the program.
>
>We seek papers that address a wide range of issues and ongoing
>developments, including, but not limited to:
>
>Advertising
>Anonymous transactions
>Auditability
>Business issues
>Copy protection
>Credit/Debit/Cash models
>Cryptographic security
>Customer service
>Digital money
>EDI
>Electronic libraries
>Electronic wallets
>Email-enabled business
>Exception handling
>Identity verification
>Internet direct marketing
>Internet/WWW integration
>Key management
>Legal and policy issues
>Micro-transactions
>Negotiations
>Privacy
>Proposed systems
>Protocols
>Reliability
>Reports on existing systems
>Rights management
>Service guarantees
>Services vs. digital goods
>Settlement
>Smart-cards
>
>Questions regarding a topic's relevance to the workshop may be
>addressed to the program chair via electronic mail to
>ec98chair at usenix.org. USENIX will publish Conference Proceedings
>which are provided free to technical session attendees; additional
>copies will be available for purchase from USENIX.
>
>
>WHAT TO SUBMIT
>
>Technical paper submissions and proposals for panels must be
>received by March 6, 1998. We welcome submissions of the following
>type:
>
>1. Refereed Papers - Full papers or extended abstracts should be five
>   to 20 pages, not counting references and figures.
>
>2. Panel proposals - Proposals should be three to seven pages,
>   together with a list of names of potential panelists. If
>   accepted, the proposer must secure the participation of
>   panelists, and prepare a three to seven page summary of panel
>   issues for inclusion in the Proceedings. This summary can
>   include position statements by panel participants.
>
>3. Work-In-Progress Reports - Short, pithy, and fun, WIP reports
>   introduce interesting new or ongoing work and should be 1 to 3
>   pages in length. If you have work you would like to share or a
>   cool idea that is not quite ready to publish, a WIP is for you!
>   We are particularly interested in presenting student work.
>
>Each submission must include a cover letter stating the paper title
>and authors, along with the name of the person who will act as the
>contact to the program committee. Please include a surface mail
>address, daytime and evening phone number, email and fax numbers
>and, if available, a URL for each author. If all of the authors are
>students, please indicate that in the cover letter for award
>consideration (see "Awards" below).
>
>USENIX workshops, like most conferences and journals, require that
>papers not be submitted simultaneously to more than one conference
>or publication and that submitted papers not be previously or
>subsequently published elsewhere. Submissions accompanied by
>non-disclosure agreement forms are not acceptable and will be
>returned to the author(s) unread. All submissions are held in the
>highest confidentiality prior to publication in the Proceedings,
>both as a matter of policy and in accord with the U.S. Copyright
>Act of 1976.
>
>
>WHERE TO SUBMIT PROPOSALS
>
>Please send submissions to the program committee via one of the
>following methods. All submissions will be acknowledged.
>
>Preferred Method: email (Postscript or PDF formats only) to:
>ec98papers at usenix.org.
>
>Files should be encoded for transport with uuencode or MIME base64
>encoding.  Authors should ensure that the PostScript is generic and
>portable so that their papers will print on a broad range of
>postscript printers, and should submit in sufficient time to allow
>us to contact the author about alternative delivery mechanisms in
>the event of network or other failure. If you send PostScript,
>remember the following:
>
>1) Use only the most basic fonts (TimesRoman, Helvetica, Courier).
>   Other fonts are not available with every printer or previewer.
>
>2) PostScript that requires some special prolog to be loaded into
>   the printer won't work for us. Please don't send it.
>
>3) If you use a PC- or Macintosh-based word processor to generate
>   your PostScript, print it on a generic PostScript printer before
>   sending it, to make absolutely sure that the PostScript is
>   portable.
>
>4) If you are generating the PostScript from a program running
>   under Windows, make sure that you establish the "portable"
>   setting, not the "speed" setting for PostScript generation.
>
>A good heuristic is to make sure that recent versions of Ghostview
>(e.g. Ghostview 1.5 using Ghostscript 3.33) can display your
>paper.
>
>Alternate Method: 10 copies, via postal delivery to:
>
>EC'98 Submissions
>USENIX Association
>2560 Ninth Street, Suite 215
>Berkeley, CA 94710
>
>For detailed submission guidelines, send email to ec98authors at usenix.org,
>refer to the conference Web page at
>www.usenix.org/events/ec98/guidelines.html,
>or send email to the program chair at ec98chair at usenix.org.  An
>electronic version of this Call for Papers is available at:
>www.usenix.org/events/ec98/.
>
>
>BIRDS-OF-A-FEATHER SESSIONS (BoFs)
>
>Do you have a topic that you'd like to discuss with others? Our
>Birds-of-a-Feather Sessions may be perfect for you. BoFs are very
>interactive and informal gatherings for attendees interested in a
>particular topic. Schedule your BoF in advance by telephoning the
>USENIX Conference Office at 714.588.8649 or sending email to:
>conference at usenix.org.
>
>
>AWARDS
>
>The program committee will offer awards of $500 for the best paper
>and the best student paper.
>
>
>REGISTRATION INFORMATION
>
>Materials containing all details of the technical and tutorial
>programs, registration fees and forms and hotel information will be
>available in June, 1998. If you wish to receive the registration
>materials, please contact USENIX at:
>
>USENIX Conference Office
>22672 Lambert Street, Suite 613
>Lake Forest, CA 92630
>Phone: 714 588 8649
>Fax: 714 588 9706
>Email: conference at usenix.org
>
>
>ABOUT USENIX
>
>USENIX is the Advanced Computing Systems Association. Since 1975
>USENIX has brought together the community of engineers, system
>administrators, and technicians working on the cutting edge of the
>computing world. For more information about USENIX:
>
>URL: http://www.usenix.org
>Email: office at usenix.org
>Fax: 510.548.5738
>Phone: 510.528.8649
>
>

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Nov  1 07:39:21 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 23:39:21 +0800
Subject: FBI Provides Soft Target List! (WAS: Suitcase packed, and nowhere to go...)
In-Reply-To: <345A9417.13FA@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971101162045.22341A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

> 
> *      Following is the list of the 33 IRS District
> * Headquarters Offices:
> * 
> * FROM:  FBI NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION
> * Pacific Northwest District--Seattle, WA
> * Northern California District--Oakland, CA.

The Oakland federal building is anything but a soft target. It is a
relatively new builing that was designed from the gound up with blast
control in mind. Tapered twin towers, glass roofs build to release
excess internal pressure, ample free space around the towers, five story
buffer buildings containg only non-essential human shield services
(public post office, childcare center) along the critical sides. Excellent
design.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From brianbr at together.net  Sat Nov  1 08:14:58 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:14:58 +0800
Subject: apropos list talk and our culture
Message-ID: <199711011611.LAA17911@mx02.together.net>



On 10/29/97 7:38 AM, Brad Dolan (bdolan at USIT.NET)  passed this wisdom:

>"Michael Hays" is a new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney.  Last
>night's episode was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener
>to kill a BATF agent and was brought to justice.  DA convinced a jury
>that some things were "more important" than the first amendment.

 No that was not the point made, in fact the show made a strong point in 
favor of the first amendment. They went after the shock-jock because he 
specifically incited a specific individiual with words which we he knew 
would have an immediate cause and effect result in getting this guy to go 
out and kill someone. There is a difference, and I personally thought 
they made the point well .... now the accused did try to hide behind the 
first amendment but that was not what the first amendment is all about.

  You have to pick yopur mountains to die on in those arenas and the 
shock-jocks cause would not have been one I would have touched were I a 
Constitutional lawyer.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user,
   he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy 







From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov  1 08:34:33 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:34:33 +0800
Subject: FYI re BATF (fwd)
Message-ID: <v03110757b081062aa3a5@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:04:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Peter F Cassidy <pcassidy at world.std.com>
To: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
Subject: FYI re BATF (fwd)
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by pop.sneaker.net id
LAA23122



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 06:35:29 -0500
From: Unka Bart <mendicant at buddhist.com>
To: Peter Cassidy <triarche at world.std.com>
Subject: FYI re BATF

From: John_Johnson <TXJohn47 at ix.netcom.com>
Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:30:51 -0600
To: FIREARMS at LISTSERV.UTA.EDU
Subject:      Fwd: Is the BATF Up to Their Old Tricks Again? **** Begin
              Forwarded Message ****

 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:32:09 -0700
 From: Douglas Davis <davisda at rmi.net>
 Subject: Is the BATF Up to Their Old Tricks Again?

> From: byteme at msn.com (Karmann Powell)
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:27:52 -0500
> Organization: AirPower Information Services (610) 259-2193
> Subject: Is the BATF Up to Their Old Tricks Again?
>
> I am cross posting this e-mailed information received from a
> Karmann in AZ. She has e-mailed me and sent local newspaper
> information via snail mail to support her claims that her
> community is being bullied by the BATF. For some reason they
> are having a difficult time getting the information out - even
> with a whole community and local newspaper of angry citizens.
> Anyone that can assist and verify the following would be most
> appreciated.
>
> ****************************************************************
>
> RIGHTS & FREEDOMS AT RISK IN NEW RIVER, ARIZONA
> New River is a small, non-incorporated community 30 miles north
> of Phoenix, AZ.  On September 10, 1997, the BATF raided the
> property of Charles Byers, a former munitions manufacturer.
> On the property they found a shed containing chemicals that the
> BATF claims are highly unstable and shock sensitive. A list of
> the chemicals obtained via court records shows that most of the
> chemicals are used in the production of fireworks. The shed has
> been described by some as "a glorified high school chem. lab".
> Our community, as well as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights,
> are under an all out assault.  The BATF has invaded New River and
> plans to create an environmental hazard against our wishes and
> without legal permits.  On September 23, 1997, the BATF blew up
> two bunkers full of explosives.  The community was not notified.
> The resulting shock wave rattled houses as far as four miles away.
> Kids at New River Elementary school were bounced out of their chairs
> and  scared half out of their wits. The materials in the shed did
> not ignite.
> The BATF brought in heavy equipment to build a berm around the shed,
> then constructed a concrete wall on top of it.  The BATF claims that
> the heavy equipment did not set off the chemicals in the shed because
> they used equipment with "rubber tires."
> The BATF decided the only way to solve the problems of the unstable
> chemicals is to burn the shed using Thermite as an accelerant to
> incinerate the shed and its contents at temperatures between 3000
> and 5000 degrees. This would completely destroy any organic compounds
> that might exist.  The inorganic compounds would not be destroyed,
> but would instead, vaporize and form possible new and deadly airborne
> combinations. The EPA approved the BATF's plan, a federal judge
> issued an evacuation order, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, went
> along.  The burn was set for October 18, 1997.  The Sheriff, a thirty
> year veteran of the DEA, sent his posse to notify residents that they
> were to evacuate their property, including all domestic animals and
> birds.  Since this is a rural area, most people have more than just
> a cat or dog. Folks here raise horses, pigs, chickens and exotic
> birds and animals.  Many raise more than one species and have
> multiple head.
> At a community meeting with the BATF, EPA and Sheriff Arpaio,
> residents asked questions of the assembled panel.  The panel could
> not or would not respond to residents inquires:  "What exactly was
> in the shed and in what quantities?  What effect would burning the
> chemicals have on our soil, air and ground water, both short and
> long term?  Where were residents to take their animals?  Who was
> going to pay for any damages sustained to properties (Brush fired
> hazard is very high this time of the years)?"
> It was evident that the effects of the burn had not been determined.
>  The EPA representative said numerous times, "We will monitor before
> and after."  Sheriff Arpaio threatened to forcibly remove anyone who
> refused to leave their property.  He could not understand why
> residents did not want - or appreciate - his 'protection'.  He stated
> that it is within his power and responsibilities to protect us from
> ourselves. So many people refused to evacuate that the October 18
> burn was postponed until November 1, 1997.  Three hundred fifty homes
> were to be evacuated, for 12 to 24 hours, within a three mile radius
> of Byers' property.  The evacuation maps provided to us, prepared by
> the BATF, were completely wrong.  They have been redrawn - with the
> radius now only extending 1.5 miles so as not to inconvenience the
> people in the Manufacturer's Outlet Mall nearly three miles from the
> proposed burn site.    When asked, "If these chemicals are so
> sensitive, why did the BATF set off explosions near the shed?", they
> said it was a mistake.
> We have not accepted that the federal, or even local, government can
> force us to leave our homes, proceed with reckless behavior with
> detrimental effects on our land, lives and livelihoods, and not be
> accountable.  The BATF and Sheriff Arpaio have tried to make us feel
> like we are over-reacting and just need to get with the program.
> Sheriff Arpaio did not stop his threats of forcible removal - until
> he was contacted by the community's attorney.
> On October 25,1997, New River residents held a peaceful demonstration
> at the site of the proposed burn.  We walked two miles up and down
> steep hills and stood before the BATF with American flags.  We wanted
> to remind the BATF that this is still America and that we have the
> right to live peacefully on our property.  Our government cannot, on
> a whim, destroy what we have worked so hard to build.
> Certain sections of our government are testing American's resolve.
> They are looking to see where we draw the line.  In New River, we
> have drawn that line in the dirt we hold sacred.  We will not allow
> the burn and will not leave our homes.
> A talk show host in Phoenix called what's happening here "The New
> River Rebellion."  We do not want New River added to the list of
> American Tragedies that  includes Ruby Ridge and Waco.  Call your
> own congressman or senator.  Let them know that you know about New
> River.  If we let it happen here, where will it stop?
>
> Contact the following people/locations for comments or more
> information:
> Karmann Powell - byteme at msn.com
> The Desert Advocate, Karen Seemeyer, Editor - thedesadv at aol.com
> The Arizona Republic - being covered by Timothy Tait
> timothy.tait at pni.com
>
> --
> (byteme at msn.com)
> AirPower Services BBS - (610) 259-2193 - info at airgunhq.com
> Interested in Firearms, RKBA, Airguns, the Shooting Sports?
>             PRN Regional HQ, Northeast United States
> *  Jim Henry and AirPower Services take no responsibility for *
> *  message content as this is an *un-moderated* list.         *
--
 John_Johnson
 TXJohn47 at ix.netcom.com
 � 1997 All rights reserved

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From brianbr at together.net  Sat Nov  1 08:36:13 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:36:13 +0800
Subject: apropos list talk and our culture
Message-ID: <199711011630.LAA23465@mx01.together.net>



On 10/29/97 10:06 AM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>>At 5:38 AM -0700 10/29/97, Brad Dolan wrote: "Michael Hays" is a 
>>new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney. Last night's episode 
>>was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener to kill a 
>>BATF agent and was brought to justice. DA convinced a jury that 
>>some things were "more important" than the first amendment.
>
>I was just about to mention this show, in connection with the Waco 
>incident.
>
>I was truly disgusted by the show. None of the relative balance and 
>realismthat "Law and Order" has, by comparison. For starters, very 
>unrealistic. Even Freeh and Company understand the role of the 
>First (to give them theirdue). Just plain bad writers.

  I really disagree with your overall assessment, but yes it definitely 
wasn't in a league with L&O and the script was somewhat uneven

>Some of the slimy stuff: (all quotes are rough paraphrases)
>
>* references to Waco followers as crazies: "they seem to show up 
>everywhere"
>
>* a black assistant to Hayes talks about the chat rooms and online 
>discussion groups that the "extreme right wing" people are in: "And 
>this stuff is completely unregulated!"

  these were out of line and sort of to be expected these days

>* the First Amendment is seen as a minor obstacle to prosecution. 
>Hayes congratulates his assistant at the end for finding a way 
>around the First as a defense.

  Thats not how I viewed it, I don't remeber the words, but I saw it that 
he was not going to 'go after' the first amendment and cautioned them 
about how unwise that was. 

>* the talk show host has apparently done nothing more than many of 
>us havedone on this list
>
>* he is convicted because he claimed not to have ever met the 
>murderer, buta tearful witness (girlfriend of the murderer) says 
>they did meet, briefly.
>
>(No evidence is presented that the talk show host participated, 
>supplied weapons, encouraged the murderer, etc.)

  maybe I am dreaming about something else, but I think they clearly 
showed that he had met with the guy and was fully aware that he was a 
crazy and could be pushed over the line

>* Oh, and to add to the sliminess, the DA's office promises the 
>tearful girlfriend that her boyfriend will get a life sentence 
>instead of death if she testifies, but "whoops."

  definite slime 

>After the assistant to Hayes talks about the Net being "completely 
>unregulated!," and after finding the "Pentium II with 48 megs of 
>memory," I was expecting some mention of encryption. As a way to 
>further show how evilthe online community is. But I saw no mention.

   well gee maybe we should arrest everyone with a pentium/ppc and more 
than 16 Megs of RAM for possesion of 'cyber-terrorist' tools

>I will admit to a guilty pleasure: the opening scene, where the 
>BATF agentgets shot in the face, was delicious.  

   I looked at it with mixed emotions ... BATF is made up of guys and 
gals just like us, some good, some bad, some sheep. The problem with BATF 
is that their leadership sucked and the bad ones got their way. Just like 
years ago, when Philadelphia elected Frank Rizzo (former Police 
Commsisioner) mayor ... he wasn't a bad cop but ran a little rough shod 
over the Bill of Rights from time to time ... with him as Mayor, the 
Philadelphia PD went to hell in a handbasket because all his old cronies 
could get away with murder (often literally!)



Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For my PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>   
        

  "...error reading WinOS. (A)bort, (R)etry, (M)acintosh?"







From Selective.Marketing at dthead.dwt.daewoo.co.kr  Sun Nov  2 01:21:45 1997
From: Selective.Marketing at dthead.dwt.daewoo.co.kr (Selective.Marketing at dthead.dwt.daewoo.co.kr)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:21:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Here It Is !!
Message-ID: < 199.232.240.13>


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From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov  1 09:24:48 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:24:48 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <199711011630.LAA23465@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102808b08102a45f8d@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:30 AM -0700 11/1/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>On 10/29/97 10:06 AM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>>* the First Amendment is seen as a minor obstacle to prosecution.
>>Hayes congratulates his assistant at the end for finding a way
>>around the First as a defense.
>
>  Thats not how I viewed it, I don't remeber the words, but I saw it that
>he was not going to 'go after' the first amendment and cautioned them
>about how unwise that was.

You said in your other post this morning that you thought this was clearly
not a First Amendment case. I disagree. Though the episode obfuscated the
issue. Read on.




>>* the talk show host has apparently done nothing more than many of
>>us havedone on this list
>>
>>* he is convicted because he claimed not to have ever met the
>>murderer, buta tearful witness (girlfriend of the murderer) says
>>they did meet, briefly.
>>
>>(No evidence is presented that the talk show host participated,
>>supplied weapons, encouraged the murderer, etc.)
>
>  maybe I am dreaming about something else, but I think they clearly
>showed that he had met with the guy and was fully aware that he was a
>crazy and could be pushed over the line

Since when is broadcasting a radio to relevision show or writing an essay
evidence of complicity in a murder, even when it "pushes someone over the
line"?

Is Senator Helms responsible if somebody shoots Clinton? ("Clinton had
better be wearing a bulletproof vest if he visits my state") How about talk
show host G. Gordon Liddy? ("Go for head shots")

How about the people on this list? Am I culpable for the actions of, say,
Jim Bell?

If this is the criterion, all publication and broadcast will cease if the
broadcaster or publisher or writer or whatever has any belief that some
crazy person might hear his words and act on it. If Dan Rather knows that
some crazy person watches his show and is enraged to see interracial
marriages, for example, is Dan then complicit when he shows such a scene
and the crazy racist commits murder?

(Would it matter if Dan Rather had been witnessed personally speaking to
the crazy racist?)

As the "Michael Hayes" episode showed things, the radio show guy had only
barely met the guy, in passing. This does not make him responsible for the
actions of the guy. (I agree that the talk show guy was stupid to have
denied meeting the shooter....he could have just said, "I meet a lot of
people...I don't remember all of them.")

(I think this was thrown in to obfuscate the basic constitutional issues,
hence my earlier comment that the talk show host was apparently convicted
because he lied, and not on the real issue of culpability. Bad writing. Bad
law.)

Lawyers talk about a "nexus." If I rant and rave on this list about taking
action against the State, about defending myself in predawn ninja raids,
and then someone like Bell or Vulis or Detweiler actually goes out and
(allegedly) commits some crime, can I held to be a co-conspirator or a
co-participant?

Even if I _know_ they're crazy?

If there is no nexus, no direct contact, then culpability is lost.

(One defense in court I would use to the "and was fully aware that he was a
crazy" point Brian raised above is "I'm not his psychiatrist...I didn't
diagnose him." Lawyers are always fond of reminding witnesses that they're
not qualified in certain areas, so....)

Look, I disagree with the "hate speech" laws, as many free speech advocates
do. (Check out what the ACLU has to say about such laws.) But the most the
talk show host should have been charged with was a violation of the hate
speech laws (not that I support this). Calling him a co-conspirator in a
murder is ludicrous.

But since I don't who on this list is crazy and who is not, and who may be
arrested tomorrow or during the Thanksgiving Day Raids, I'd better shut up.

--Tim May, Co-Conspirator in the Bell Case

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov  1 09:30:55 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:30:55 +0800
Subject: [FWD] Further Attacks on "cajones.com" Vindicate Jeff Burchell and the Huge Cajones Remailer
Message-ID: <a0f23b37c01ef3769a3b265ba166e085@anon.efga.org>



dr at ripco.com (David Richards) wrote:

> It appears that the domain 'cajones.com' is being abandoned due to the
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^
> massive forgery by spammers? No nameservers respond...
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Enclosed is a spam recently received, through the open relay 'rio.bravo.net'
> from an IBM.NET dialup.
>  
> Note that the only body text in this spam is a URL that doesn't work because
> the spammer truncated the URL, and the complete url points to what appears
> to be a legitimate site, so he was probably trying to promote a personal
> home page or other sub-site on 'http://www.fcl.metronet.lib.mi.us/'
>  
>  
> === Spam with headers intact ===
> 
> From cajones.com!weijoro79 Fri Oct 31 22:58:42 1997
> Return-Path: <weijoro79 at cajones.com>
> Received: from rio.bravo.net (root at 207.48.46.12)
>   by XXXXX.ZZZZZ.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 1997 04:58:38 -0000
> Received: from LOCALNAME (slip166-72-172-87.fl.us.ibm.net [166.72.172.87]) by rio.bravo.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) > with SMTP id WAA24372; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:32:27 -0600            
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:32:27 -0600
> From: weijoro79 at cajones.com               
> To: weijoro79 at cajones.com
> Comments: Authenticated sender is <weijoro79 at cajones.com>
> Errors-To: nobody at nowhere.com
> Subject: Create custom targeted e-mail address lists...
> Message-Id: <199711012578NAA22995 at cajones.bravo.net>
>  
> http://www.fcl.metronet.lib.m
 
That's quite interesting.  Spam is arriving with forged headers that
attempt to implicate "cajones.com".

That domain has quite a colorful history.  According to InterNIC records,
it's operated by Jeff Burchell, who is also the former operator of the
defunct Huge Cajones Remailer which he operated as part of that domain.

Along came Gary Burnore <gburnore at netcom.com>, CEO of DataBasix, who
claimed that Jeff's remailer at cajones.com was being used to "forge"
his e-mail address to Usenet articles.  His only evidence was a few 
messages which happened to have a "cajones.com" message id in the 
headers, and they weren't even very convincing forgery attempts at that. 

Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryan <eridani at ix.netcom.com>, and William J. 
McClatchie (aka "Wotan") <wmcclatc at primenet.com> managed to harass Jeff 
sufficiently that he shut the remailer down.  At the time, Burnore
refused to concede the possibility that any "forgeries" of articles in 
his name might also have forged headers designed to implicate 
"cajones.com" as well.  Rather he relied on the fact that Jeff kept no
logs which could prove the innocence of himself and his remailer.

Now the "cajones.com" domain is dead, and yet it's still showing up in
forged headers!  It looks like another of Gary Burnore's "shoot first
and ask questions later" accusations has been cast into doubt.
Unfortunately, it's probably too late to undo the disinformation
campaign that he waged against Jeff Burchell and other remailer
operators.

--
Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.

 -- General William Westmoreland   






From azur at netcom.com  Sat Nov  1 09:41:55 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:41:55 +0800
Subject: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07e6492650f@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b07fbff62fe0@[208.129.55.202]>



>An entity claiming to be Steve Schear wrote:
>: >: Tim May wrote:
>: >:
>: >: (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
>: >: consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably
>from
>: >: a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing
>libertarian
>: >: whacko.)
>: >
>: >Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still
>: >indicates a sociopath.
>:
>: Perhaps, but is being a sociopath that bad?  When those who administer the
>: justice system in society are out-of-control, or have consciously decided
>: to ignore the constitutional protections they are charged with upholding
>: then strong, extra-legal, measures may be called for in order to right the
>: apple cart.
>
>While being an eloquent statement of support for gang warfare, it still
>disagrees with the old adage of "two wrongs don't make a right" [1].  It does
>indicate that this concept of justice causes any traces of "law" to go right
>down the drain anytime one person oversteps the boundary.  If Tim were
>justified in breaking the law because a (hypothetical) LEO broke his end of
>the Constitutional bargain, wouldn't that make the "law" in question moot?

Yes, such direct measures by a wronged individual can set the stage for
further lawlessness and should only be undertaken after all reasonable
legal measures within the system have been exhausted.  Justice is, in my
opinion, more important than the survivial of the system, when that system
no longer can deliver justice.  If LEOs feel they can overstep their legal
restraints with impunity, because their superiors won't know or care, or
the courts are very unlikely to punish, then the laws have already become
moot.

>
>I'm not attacking your ideals, or Tim's, I'm just wondering if this sort
>of reactionary violence is valid.  If Tim were arrested on some bogus charge
>[2] and were held as a political prisoner, let's say he does as he says he
>would ... leaving a corpse in jackboots.  Wouldn't that add more fuel to the
>fires of the political reptiles, resulting in more oppresive law enforcement?

Yes, and this is exactly what is happening with the dramatic militarization
of enforcement units in unlikely government organizations.

>
>I'm not saying that he should just turn the other cheek, I'm just wondering if
>there aren't more effective ways of dealing with an out of control government.
>The American public won't be roused to open revolution quite so easily.  They
>have jobs, cars, houses, kids, dogs, digital watches [3] and lots of other
>things that they do not want to lose.  Revolution is untidy, and Americans
>know this, so does the government ... this gives them a BIG advantage, it
>makes the citizenry very compliant.

At the time of the American Revolution a similar situation existed.  The
crown set the stage with standing colonial armies paid for by colonial
citizens against their wishes, forced billeting of soldiers in residential
homes, harsh and unjust laws and extridition of accused to England for
trials by non-peers, etc.  It has been widely estimated that only 10-15% of
the colonists participated in the Revolution, most being either loyalists
or too afraid to get involved. Of course, we're a long way from this.

>
>How do you see Tim's stance as being practical?

For those who seek the overthrow of order imposed by who they accuse of
ignoring constitutional guarantees, nothing could be better than to manuver
them into ever more blatant and publicized abuses of civil rights.  So long
as instigators carefully chose the battle ground and keep collateral damage
to a minimum, common citizens (with no particular radical bent) will see
through the spin doctors, revealing the true stripes of those with naked
power ambitions and see themselves as possible next targets for abuse.  It
only takes 10-15%.

Personally, I doubt any actions short of those which sucessfully challenge
the ability of the Feds to protect citizens from lawlessness will cause
significant numbers of citizens to reconsider their allegence.

The problems we are facing were largely explored by Alexis de Toqueville in
the first quarter of the 19th century.  He predicted that "tyranny of the
majority",the darker side of democracy, was a possible result of the
American experiment.  Jefferson's solution, frequent revolutions, has
unfortuately been shunned.

--Steve







From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov  1 09:42:50 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:42:50 +0800
Subject: BATF as an internal army
In-Reply-To: <199711011630.LAA23465@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0810793884b@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:30 AM -0700 11/1/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:

>   I looked at it with mixed emotions ... BATF is made up of guys and
>gals just like us, some good, some bad, some sheep. The problem with BATF
>is that their leadership sucked and the bad ones got their way. Just like
>years ago, when Philadelphia elected Frank Rizzo (former Police
>Commsisioner) mayor ... he wasn't a bad cop but ran a little rough shod
>over the Bill of Rights from time to time ... with him as Mayor, the
>Philadelphia PD went to hell in a handbasket because all his old cronies
>could get away with murder (often literally!)

The problem with the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, for
you foreigners reading this) is that it is an agency designed solely to
fight contraband and smuggling.

Just as organized crime gained a major foothold in America by smuggling and
distributing booze (by this I mean the Kennedy Clan, of course, and some
random Sicilians), so too the BATF became a standing army to fight (or take
bribes from) their opponents.

If the government got out of the unconstitutional (I believe) business of
telling people what kind of stuff they could put in their mouths or bodies,
and got out of the business of trying to micromanage the types of Second
Amendment instruments they owned, their wouldn't be a need for the BATF,
would there?

The BATFis really an internal army, just like so many statist countries have.

This is why they're getting Blackhawk choppers, Bradley Fighting Vehicles,
fully automatic weapons, and access to SIGINT and COMINT resources. In
conjunction with the DEA, Customs, and other such agencies.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From phelix at vallnet.com  Sat Nov  1 10:33:29 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:33:29 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <345e6cee.15028468@128.2.84.191>



First, PGPsdk has been released:

	http://www.pgp.com/sdk/

The bad news:  the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
freeware or shareware applications using it.  Here's an example of the
licensing:

License Plan #1

                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
server) 

Add Certificate Server Integration: 
                                          $5,000 advance on royalties 

Support/Upgrades 
                            (includes email support by a trained
                            developer support technician) 
                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments 


Oh well, back to hacking an interface to PGPtray.

-- Phelix






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Nov  1 10:34:30 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:34:30 +0800
Subject: Source code obfuscation
In-Reply-To: <199710281613.LAA28421@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971101115621.21507D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>




If you can generate useful source code, you should be able to write a 
useful parser that strips out comments. You can also "search and replace" 
variable names w/ obscure ones - just dont miss any.  ;)

-r.w.

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028165130.13198F-100000 at pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>,
> on 10/28/97 
>    at 04:52 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> said:
> 
> >Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to 
> >obscure source code so that it builds, but no longer
> >contains comments or useful variable or procedure
> >names?
> 
> Write it in ASM, 99.9% woun't have a clue to what it is. :)
> 
> - -- 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3a
> Charset: cp850
> Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBNFYOgY9Co1n+aLhhAQGMIAQAx42lvkz9dynJF5jwjmzenn9VrjwNS1MB
> hq93tq2X8kQVjrZq4D+pmztCdFqatMiO4a4q0xLuwewQQ4gH7mcpVo5OixPONldr
> oS/rd6bf/U8yNDQvW9N+1nh2nzOV01UFoXbz0hUjhgvZpQlvs0Xs+2V1CVk1q6hA
> 3jhSS8ZwSaI=
> =ckXx
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov  1 10:39:31 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:39:31 +0800
Subject: [SURVEY] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
Message-ID: <d7398092218ec328be03256d0d8c83a9@anon.efga.org>



Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>Fill out and email me, and I'll tabulate results, and post here and on
>ietf-open-pgp:

>==============================8<==============================
>mini straw poll on pgp2.x and 5.x usage:
>
>1. What are you currently using for everyday use: 2.x or 5.x

>[ 2 or 5 ]

2.x. 5.x is purposefully incompatable and crippled.

>2. What proportion of people you use PGP to communicate with are using 5.x

>[ x / y ]

None. If they're using 5.x I by definition can't communicate with them.

>3. How many of the 5.x users you communicate with are cypherpunks

>[ z ]

See above.

>==============================8<==============================

>The question has come up on ietf-open-pgp as to how important it is
>for the OpenPGP standard to support backwards compatibility with
>pgp2.x.

Very. 5.x right now is nothing but annoying. I can understand wanting to use
the new algorithms. However if the authors want to do that and literally
force people into upgrading then they need to make sure that every
platform which had a version of 2.x has a version of 5.x available, and they
need to stop breaking *every* script and program which calls PGP. If they 
release a version of PGP for one platform before they do others and the new
version is incompatable with the old for all intents and purposes, they're
just feeding OS wars, frustration, and hostility.

>The IETF generally likes to steer clear of patented algorithms as
>MUSTs in standards.  This encourages implementations, etc.
>(Personally I'm pretty keen on this point, though I would like more
>backwards compatible pgp5.x implementations -- I've already received
>emails I can't read without resorting to the pgp5 command line app,
>which doesn't work with my mailer integrated system.)

That's exactly my situation. I figure, however, that if somebody is going to
send out broken email I won't bother kludging around to read it no more than
I will go start X11 and fire off a 20 MB browser (Communicator) because some
moron doesn't know how to use HTML as it was originally designed. I'm 
personally appalled at the number of Cypherpunks using a version of PGP
which is completely incompatable with previous versions and outrageously
annoying to use unless you run Windows since it breaks everything which is
integrated.

>So the question arises, just how many pgp2.x users are there.  PGP Inc
>are pointing to the ratio of RSA keys to DSA/EG keys on keyservers as
>showing that pgp2.x users are in the minority.  However that ratio is
>something like 20,000 to 75,000, and I'm sure we've heard statistics
>in the past about there being literally millions of pgp 2.x users.
>One suspects that either many pgp 2.x users aren't using keyservers (I
>know several cypherpunks who have something against key servers and
>avoid them for perceived security or privacy reasons), and/or the
>pgp2.x user base is exaggerated.

You can't compare the user bases this way. 

First, 5.x integrates easily into several Windows mailers. This encourages
people to go get it and install it over 2.x. 

Second, 5.x integrates keyserver functions. 2.x does not. It's really no
work for 5.x users to submit a key to a keyserver, where it takes some
effort with 2.x. 

Third, most people probably have Windows installed already. They heard 5.x
was out, and didn't realize that it was so...well, broken. I know I fetched
5.x when it came out and installed it. I almost sent my key to the servers, 
then stopped to think about how the generated key doesn't work with 2.x. 

Fourth, if you're using Windows and communicating with other Windows users
there is really no reason not to use 5.x. People communicating with
classmates at universities and such are likely to go install 5.x because it's 
easy to use, send their key to the keyservers because they can, and inflate the
numbers.

Fifth, there are far more Windows users than users of other OSes. Windows
users have no reason not to upgrade, while other users have every reason
to stick with previous version.

I think the major problem with 5.x right now as it stands is the complete
lack of support from http://beta.pgp.com, the forced command-line
incompatabilities, and the lack of a stable multiplatform version. Add to
that the CMR debacle. 

Now in defense of PGP 5.x I do like the keyserver integration, expiry dates
on keys, and some of the other features. I like how it integrates with the
mailers. 

This entire thing makes me think of a web site which checks your browser and
OS. If you aren't running what the author likes, it tells you that you suck,
you're a moron, you're behind the times, you're using an inferior operating
system, and then doesn't show you the data. This is analogous to what PGP 
Inc. has done. This compatability thing could have very easily been avoided.

Face it, PGP Inc. screwed up. I think it's ultimately going to be the job of
Cypherpunks outside of the Land of the Freeh to clean up their mess.

Has anyone considered hacking up 2.6.xi to handle the new format? It would
have to be saner than 5.x is at this point. I would try, but I'm in the Land 
of the Freeh where you put your backside on the line to write any crypto 
software at all.

Ah, I love America.

CompatabilityMonger






From wabe at smart.net  Sat Nov  1 10:42:18 1997
From: wabe at smart.net (wabe)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:42:18 +0800
Subject: 
Message-ID: <01bce70b$eb196da0$c27f61ce@dave>



yeah, so ABC has an absolutly discusting thing last night
(was that 20/20) that I watched for almost 20 minutes,
in which they actually showed the "raptists" (he met
and had sex? with a fifteen year old girl.)  

Who even meets girls on the internet?  Then there was a
proto-hacker who shut down the porn chat rooms on Aol.
(I commend him, if for nothing else, than for developing
software that shuts down parts of AOL. :>)   Anyways,
Mr. Protohacker actually cried on the camera, because he
was raped at age 4, and he couldn't believe we let
those pornographers on the internet to spread
their web of filth.

When TV gets into the war against the Internet, it 
scares me.  I don't want a war between the bible belt
and the technocrats...

_______________________________________
-wabe




From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Nov  1 10:45:23 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:45:23 +0800
Subject: Tim's AK47 is a BB gun
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b07d8d6546eb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971101120752.21507F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>





On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I wrote:
> 
> ---
> 
> The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo (7.62x29,
> as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles chambering this popular
> round).
> 
> ---
> 
>  Before you rush to correct me, I _meant_ to write "7.62x39" of course.
> 
> 
> (A round used by the Chinese, Soviet, and East Bloc nations, and roughly
> equivalent to the American M-16 round, known either as the .223 or 5.56mm.
> The NATO "7.62" is in a longer case length. 7.62x54, as I recall. Known in
> America as .308.
> 

Just how is a 7.62mmxanything equivilent to a 5.56mm?

The cartridge you refer to is typically used in AK-47 and similar 
weapons. The bullet is the same diameter (7.62mm) as the NATO 7.62mm / 
.308 round, but the cartridge has a different length.

OrdnanceMonger

Advice of the day: "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY"


> --Tim May
> 
> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Nov  1 10:49:41 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:49:41 +0800
Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
In-Reply-To: <v03110744b07e64c03d53@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971101122030.21507H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>




Along the lines of keeping a "throw away" handgun around ... keep a 
"throw away" computer.


On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:11:33 -0500
> X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
> protocol
> To: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> Cc: bostic at bsdi.com
> Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:04:22 -0500
> From: glen mccready <glen at qnx.com>
> Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2399
> X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> Precedence: list
> Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> 
> 
> Forwarded-by: Peter Tonoli <anarchie at brimstone.suburbia.net>
> 
> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:02:58 -0500
> From: David Kennedy <76702.3557 at compuserve.com>
> Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
> 
> Approved: proff at suburbia.net
> 
> Cyber Allegations (AP US & World  21 Oct 1997)
> 
> >   PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) -- A woman who said she was sexually assaulted by a
> > man she met through an on-line "chat room" has been ordered to turn over
> > her computer for examination by the defendant's lawyer.  Circuit Judge
> > Alice Gilbert issued the order Oct. 8 after the defendant said another
> > computer user told him that the woman had bragged on-line -- in a chat
> > room called "Man Haters" -- about making up the story.  The woman was
> > also ordered to reveal her password and on-line aliases.
> 
> o The accused, a 26-year old is alleged to have pulled a knife and attacked
> the victim after a date on Feb 28th.  Prosecutors have said they will
> appeal.
> 
> > "In my view, turning over somebody's computer these days is the same as
> > asking to go through their diary or mail," said prosecutor John
> > Pietrofesa.  Inspecting computer records from the opposing side, while
> > relatively new in criminal cases, has become common in civil cases, said
> > Michigan lawyer and computer law expert Robert A. Dunn.  In civil cases, a
> > judge will institute safeguards such as making both sides sign a
> > confidentiality agreement that information gleaned from computer records
> > will not be disclosed outside of court, he said.
> 
> Dave Kennedy CISSP, National Computer Security Assoc
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
> 
> 
> 






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov  1 11:18:33 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:18:33 +0800
Subject: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711010306.VAA27799@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971101101925.006eb57c@popd.netcruiser>

At 09:06 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>>                    TECHNOLOGY 'SECURES' GUNFIRE IN THE CITY
>>                                        
>>      Secures October 31, 1997
>>      Web posted at: 4:44 p.m. EST (2144 GMT)
>>      
>>      ARLINGTON, Virginia (CNN) -- If you heard gunshots ring out in your
>>      neighborhood, you might be able to tell the general direction they
>>      came from. And if you happened to glance at your watch, you could
>>      say about what time. In maybe a minute, if you were so inclined, you
>>      could call the police to report it.
>>      
>>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
>>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
>>      location of gunshots.

This would be a network of microphones and processing stations which could
perform a reverse-GPS location analysis of sounds picked up by 3 or more
microphones.  (Sounds common to 2 microphones could be localized with a
lower degree of accuracy if directional microphone arrays are used.)  Yet
another instance of Big Brother technology that is of limited value to the
police.  Of course, this means that you will have the police responding to
every backfiring car, which will dampen their enthusiasm for responding
unless full-auto fire or a prolonged gunfight is overheard.  Of course, if
you have a silenced weapon and some cherry bombs with cigarette time-delay
fuses, you can use this system to docoy the police into the wrong
neighborhood.  Or if you confine yourself to single-shot assassinations
near busy streets, it will probably be written off as a vehicle backfire,
especially if you are doing a drive-by with a suppressed shotgun.  (Not
possible to silence completely, but certainly possible to quiet to the
point that it wouldn't attract undue notice along a busy street.)

In order for this system to be worth anything, it would have to be able to:
1.  Use voice recognition techniques to classify the type of weapon
(primarily useful for machine guns--it could evaluate the frequency
characteristics, rate of fire, etc. to distinguish between an AK-47 and an
UZI) sufficiently well to distinguish between small-arms fire, fireworks
(cherry bombs, M-80's, etc) and vehicle backfires.

2.  Perform "scream analysis" to distinguish the typical screams of
children at play from those of gunshot victims.

3.  Monitor conversations throughout the coverage area.  A suspicious sound
preceded by a male voice saying "Give me your money, bitch" would be much
more interesting than one preceded by a revving engine.  This would have
the added benefits of allowing LEO's to track fugitives via the sound of
their footsteps, their breathing, vehicle engine sounds, etc., as well as
gathering voiceprint data from crimes in progress.

I think point 3 is the scariest.  A properly designed system could do
voiceprint analysis of almost every word spoken in public, tie the
conversations to the identities of the speakers, and archive the time,
location, content and participants of every spoken conversation for long
periods of time in a database that could be searched by keyword, speaker
identity, time, and/or location.  The following searches could be done:

1.  "I want a list of everyone who uttered the words 'buy' and 'crack' in
the same sentence between 2100 and 0330 hours within 500 feet of 123 Maple
Drive between August 7 and December 5."

2.  "I want a list of all participants in conversations with Citizen-Unit
754-35-9710 which included the phrase 'BATF agent' in the last 6 months.

3.  "I want a map of Citizen-Unit 754-35-9710's movements for the last 2
weeks."

4.  "I want to see the movement history of all '96 Ford Escorts with a
misfire on cylinder #1."

5.  "I want the identities of everyone involved in the assault that
happened at the corner of Maple and Main at 1752 hours yesterday.

The Big Brother potential of such a system should be obvious.  What is
really scary is that such a system could be built mostly with currently
existing hardware, and at most a few man-years of software development.  If
each node in the network performs its own speech to text conversion and
archiving, and coordinates with a central voiceprint ID server, (which
could also provide the sync signal that the nodes would use to
cross-reference between nodes to locate sounds) each node could consist of
a Pentium 200 with some specialized audio signal processing cards and 15-20
GB of storage.  The only really new thing required would be an .AVI-style
format for storing MPEG audio, a text transcript of said audio (which would
need to include keywords for gunshots, passing vehicles, and other events
of interest), and location coordinates (updated on a second to second
basis) which could be indexed for reasonably efficient searching.


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
-------------- next part --------------
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From vcarlos35 at juno.com  Sat Nov  1 11:18:55 1997
From: vcarlos35 at juno.com (vcarlos35 at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:18:55 +0800
Subject: New remailer in operation at CharmQuark@juno.com
Message-ID: <19971031.135402.3822.0.vcarlos35@juno.com>



Hi everyone,
I'm running an Type 1 (or Cypherpunks) Remailer at CharmQuark at juno.com,
using
GoddessHera's Juno Remailer ver 4.9, with nym capabilities turned on.
Send a message with subject "remailer-help" (No quotes) for more
information.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 11:46:15 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:46:15 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0810793884b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711011925.UAA05261@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May said:
> The problem with the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, for
> you foreigners reading this) is that it is an agency designed solely to
> fight contraband and smuggling.
> 
> [...]
> The BATFis really an internal army, just like so many statist countries have.
> 
> This is why they're getting Blackhawk choppers, Bradley Fighting Vehicles,
> fully automatic weapons, and access to SIGINT and COMINT resources. In
> conjunction with the DEA, Customs, and other such agencies.

Some argue that things have to get a lot worse before they'll get better.
The media coverups and brainwashing will ensure that it has to get pretty
damn bad before Joe Shmoe is going to notice anything is amiss.  Perhaps to
the stage that he knows a few people who have first hand experience of
family members assasinated by storm-troopers "protecting" them from
themselves.

The BATFuckers are just one symptom.

A few more major BOOMs would accelerate the trend.

But just how bad is bad enough?  As bad as Stalins Russia?  What was it, 1
in 10 assasinated?  What sort of place would this be like to live in when
it gets that bad?  What is the likely replacement system going to be like,
what sort of government is going to arise out of that kind of mess?

Would a similar system fill the power vacuum, or would we be left with a
the desired anarchy.

I wonder.  There might be an argument for just laying low until
cryptoanarchy starves the bloated cancerous growth.

Amad3us

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQCVAwUBNFt6ffKMuKFNFivhAQHagwP8DiNphzTEBFIxjMfuk0GMoTaSwY4Etjyb
Q234GnFkf5iqWgRsDnNJWeiQzfli9EV+/5xA/eY80N+AQxbln6eFwkG8U9btMoqS
Y7NCNwU6tDSckAOSSPOtdikZBxrNclW7ZK0ueuuHvFZGx5ciWCUBbx6bcxzphmhl
bWPRWC/asbc=
=I0Qy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0Pg==
=6dKS
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Nov  1 12:16:30 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:16:30 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711010114.TAA26954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711012006.UAA02716@server.test.net>



Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
> > The real problem as I see it with democracy is that not only do your
> > neighbours get to vote to have you locked up for something which is
> > none of their business, and has no conceivable effect up on them; but
> > they actually get to vote for you to be charged for the "service" of
> > being locked up to protect you from yourself.
> 
> Exactly what kind of democracy are you speaking of? Sounds like you are
> lumping them all into one big bucket, 

I figure it's a reasonable summary of a lot of democracies right now.

> If so, please be so kind as to demonstrate how a representative,
> constitutional, and majority democracy are the same? And for the
> record, we have a constitutional representative democracy.

Didn't say they were "the same".  But they do share a characteristic:
distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
laws on thought crimes.

> Personaly, I figure you must be one of those folks with a cognitive
> disfunction. What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not 
> understand?

I understand it, but US politicians either don't, or don't care and
largely ignore the constitution.  What does it matter whether I
understand it or not?  Your constitution says you can own and carry
guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
the constitution?

> > The wild west was better than this state of affairs -- people didn't
> > have the energy or inclination to waste their own resources being nosy
> > parkers, and those that did were apt to wind up full of lead.
> 
> Boy, you history is simply fucked. If you seriosly think the west was like
> television you should spend more time reading books and period newspapers
> and less time looking at the boob-tube. 

I don't own a TV, and so don't watch much (by choice -- it's mostly
garbage); printed mass media is a bit better, but not that much.

> At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated
> with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media
> and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking
> facts straight.

I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was low.
The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
neighbours what they could think.

> Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run
> around having gun fights all the time.

Right!

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 12:43:48 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:43:48 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711012037.OAA01218@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:06:10 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:
> > 
> > Exactly what kind of democracy are you speaking of? Sounds like you are
> > lumping them all into one big bucket, 
> 
> I figure it's a reasonable summary of a lot of democracies right now.

What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of democracies?

> > If so, please be so kind as to demonstrate how a representative,
> > constitutional, and majority democracy are the same? And for the
> > record, we have a constitutional representative democracy.
> 
> Didn't say they were "the same".

No, but you certainly imply it with your broad brush.

> But they do share a characteristic:
> distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
> redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
> micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
> laws on thought crimes.

Again, demostrate your assertion(s).

Who? What? When? Where? Why? How?

> > Personaly, I figure you must be one of those folks with a cognitive
> > disfunction. What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not 
> > understand?
> 
> I understand it, but US politicians either don't, or don't care and
> largely ignore the constitution.  What does it matter whether I
> understand it or not?

If you don't understand it you can't use it, effectively or otherwise.

>  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> the constitution?

No, my responce is prove your assertions. Explain to me why you believe
these are valid views and why they provide a more usable environment for
understanding what is going on then others.

> > > The wild west was better than this state of affairs -- people didn't
> > > have the energy or inclination to waste their own resources being nosy
> > > parkers, and those that did were apt to wind up full of lead.
> > 
> > Boy, you history is simply fucked. If you seriosly think the west was like
> > television you should spend more time reading books and period newspapers
> > and less time looking at the boob-tube. 
> 
> I don't own a TV, and so don't watch much (by choice -- it's mostly
> garbage); printed mass media is a bit better, but not that much.

Nice side step.

> > At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated
> > with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media
> > and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking
> > facts straight.
> 
> I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was low.

No, you said *nothing* about murder rate. What you did say was that back in
the old days people ran around killing those who bothered them. Which isn't
true either.

> The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> neighbours what they could think.

Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?
Demonstrate your point.






From ericm at lne.com  Sat Nov  1 12:46:02 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:46:02 +0800
Subject: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971101101925.006eb57c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199711012030.MAA03169@slack.lne.com>



Jonathan Wienke writes:
> 
> ----==--=----===--===--==---==-====--==--=-=----=-
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> At 09:06 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >Forwarded message:
> >
> >>                    TECHNOLOGY 'SECURES' GUNFIRE IN THE CITY
> >>                                        
> >>      Secures October 31, 1997
> >>      Web posted at: 4:44 p.m. EST (2144 GMT)
> >>      
> >>      ARLINGTON, Virginia (CNN) -- If you heard gunshots ring out in your
> >>      neighborhood, you might be able to tell the general direction they
> >>      came from. And if you happened to glance at your watch, you could
> >>      say about what time. In maybe a minute, if you were so inclined, you
> >>      could call the police to report it.
> >>      
> >>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
> >>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
> >>      location of gunshots.
> 
> This would be a network of microphones and processing stations which could
> perform a reverse-GPS location analysis of sounds picked up by 3 or more
> microphones.  (Sounds common to 2 microphones could be localized with a
> lower degree of accuracy if directional microphone arrays are used.)  Yet
> another instance of Big Brother technology that is of limited value to the
> police.  Of course, this means that you will have the police responding to
> every backfiring car, which will dampen their enthusiasm for responding
> unless full-auto fire or a prolonged gunfight is overheard.


They've been testing this in the city I live in.  The police got
the company who makes it to set it up as a demo.

There's a significant area of town in which most of the residents
are mexican, and they have a habit of firing guns in the air on
important holidays.  The gunshot locator was installed primarily for
tracking down such shooters.

It turns out that it doesn't work very well- when the demo came up or
review, the police said that they didn't want to buy the system, because
it can't tell the difference between a gunshot and a car backfire and
the cops were wasting time searching for non-existent 'gunfire'.

There was an outcry from the citizenry- evidently the gunshot locator
made them "feel safer" although even the cops claim its ineffective.
The sheeple prevailed, and the city council coughed up the money to buy it.




-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5






From mnuck at umr.edu  Sat Nov  1 13:06:39 1997
From: mnuck at umr.edu (Matthew Nuckolls)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:06:39 +0800
Subject: cute.
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0810793884b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971101145349.14850@ultra7.umr.edu>



Warning: The following message is apolitical.

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[snip]

> I wonder.  There might be an argument for just laying low until
> cryptoanarchy starves the bloated cancerous growth.
> 
> Amad3us
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> iQCVAwUBNFt6ffKMuKFNFivhAQHagwP8DiNphzTEBFIxjMfuk0GMoTaSwY4Etjyb
> Q234GnFkf5iqWgRsDnNJWeiQzfli9EV+/5xA/eY80N+AQxbln6eFwkG8U9btMoqS
> Y7NCNwU6tDSckAOSSPOtdikZBxrNclW7ZK0ueuuHvFZGx5ciWCUBbx6bcxzphmhl
> bWPRWC/asbc=
> =I0Qy
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
> 4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
> ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
> tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0Pg==
> =6dKS
> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

--
Matthew Nuckolls
mnuck at umr.edu






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Nov  1 13:37:15 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:37:15 +0800
Subject: pgp5.x bashing (Re: [SURVEY] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users)
In-Reply-To: <d7398092218ec328be03256d0d8c83a9@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711012117.VAA03414@server.test.net>




Anonymous writes:
> >The question has come up on ietf-open-pgp as to how important it is
> >for the OpenPGP standard to support backwards compatibility with
> >pgp2.x.
> 
> Very. 5.x right now is nothing but annoying. I can understand
> wanting to use the new algorithms. However if the authors want to do
> that and literally force people into upgrading then they need to
> make sure that every platform which had a version of 2.x has a
> version of 5.x available, and they need to stop breaking *every*
> script and program which calls PGP. If they release a version of PGP
> for one platform before they do others and the new version is
> incompatable with the old for all intents and purposes, they're just
> feeding OS wars, frustration, and hostility.

I think it is somewhat understandable that the windows and mac
versions work well before the unix versions, even if painful.  The way
that `make install' over-writes your pgp2.x binaries is mildly
annoying also.  (And the way the binary can't handle being renamed to
pgp5 -- insists on being called pgp which makes it more difficult to
have it coexist).

(An aside: I understand the linux version (that is if you use the unix
version under linux) is supposed to be free for any use (even
commercial) at least that's what Phil Zimmermann said sometime back --
this was to humor a Richard Stallman.)

> >The IETF generally likes to steer clear of patented algorithms as
> >MUSTs in standards.  This encourages implementations, etc.
> >(Personally I'm pretty keen on this point, though I would like more
> >backwards compatible pgp5.x implementations -- I've already received
> >emails I can't read without resorting to the pgp5 command line app,
> >which doesn't work with my mailer integrated system.)
> 
> That's exactly my situation. I figure, however, that if somebody is going to
> send out broken email I won't bother kludging around to read it no more than
> I will go start X11 and fire off a 20 MB browser (Communicator) because some
> moron doesn't know how to use HTML as it was originally designed. I'm 
> personally appalled at the number of Cypherpunks using a version of PGP
> which is completely incompatable with previous versions and outrageously
> annoying to use unless you run Windows since it breaks everything which is
> integrated.

Hmm.  It's not _completely_ incompatible, it's only broken.  If the
pgp5.x user uses an RSA key it works ok.  So people who want to
interoperate should generate two keys, one DSA/EG pair, and one RSA
key.  Use RSA for talking to pgp2.x, and DSA/EG for talking to 5.x.
(Or use RSA for everything, but 5.x has some security advantages
(better 0xdeadbeef resistance, no fingerprint spoofing problem,
separate signature and encryption keys, key expiry, etc)).

Problem is pgp5.x doesn't automate this.  It could.  It doesn't I
think because they are trying to get people to move away from RSA,
also perhaps (speculation here) because they are trying to get you to
pay for the new version.  (Though there are still freeware versions,
commercial users will need to switch, and some people may pay so they
get tech. support, etc.)

I figure a more friendly way for pgp5.x to behave would be to generate
both sorts of key (RSA and DSA/EG) and automatically do the right
thing depending on public key type of person being communicated with.

> I think the major problem with 5.x right now as it stands is the complete
> lack of support from http://beta.pgp.com, the forced command-line
> incompatabilities, 

I wouldn't say this is "forced", more that they haven't gotten to it
yet due to time pressure.  It's probably quite fiddly to get right.

> and the lack of a stable multiplatform version. Add to that the CMR
> debacle.

Uh yeah, well you won't get any arguments from me on the CMR front;
CMR is basically clipper VI (or whatever the clipper version is now).

> Face it, PGP Inc. screwed up. I think it's ultimately going to be the job of
> Cypherpunks outside of the Land of the Freeh to clean up their mess.

If you're interested, watch www.systemics.com, and enigma
http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/I.Brown/; presently they'll add pgp5.x
compatibility.  enigma and systemics cryptix is in _java_, you can't
get much more portable than that.  enigma works with any configurable
SMTP / POP3 MUA (netscape, eudora (I presume), etc)

> Has anyone considered hacking up 2.6.xi to handle the new format? It
> would have to be saner than 5.x is at this point. I would try, but
> I'm in the Land of the Freeh where you put your backside on the line
> to write any crypto software at all.

Probably someone will do this if the CMR debacle carries on.  I have
already heard some speculation on an alternative source tree branching
off from pgp2.6.x.

Watch ietf-open-pgp too, it'll be interesting to see what happens if
the long waited for draft from PGP includes CMR.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Nov  1 13:56:06 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:56:06 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <19971101214000.19314.qmail@nym.alias.net>



More proof that the PGP folks have some kind of alterior motive.

Translation: They created a software package which purposefully breaks the
previous free versions of that package. Then they release a development kit
for that package with outrageous licensing fees. 

Welcome to the new PGP Inc.

>First, PGPsdk has been released:

>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/

>The bad news:  the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
>freeware or shareware applications using it.  Here's an example of the
>licensing:

>License Plan #1

>                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
>                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
>royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
>server)

>Add Certificate Server Integration:
>                                          $5,000 advance on royalties

>Support/Upgrades
>                            (includes email support by a trained
>                            developer support technician)
>                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov  1 14:00:32 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:00:32 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <036a4cbae9aea71936796fe72e12643b@anon.efga.org>



More proof that the PGP folks have some kind of alterior motive.

Translation: They created a software package which purposefully breaks the
previous free versions of that package. Then they release a development kit
for that package with outrageous licensing fees. 

Welcome to the new PGP Inc.

>First, PGPsdk has been released:

>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/

>The bad news:  the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
>freeware or shareware applications using it.  Here's an example of the
>licensing:

>License Plan #1

>                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
>                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
>royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
>server)

>Add Certificate Server Integration:
>                                          $5,000 advance on royalties

>Support/Upgrades
>                            (includes email support by a trained
>                            developer support technician)
>                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 14:04:19 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:04:19 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711012145.WAA19449@basement.replay.com>




##
In-reply-to: <19971101145349.14850 at ultra7.umr.edu> (message from Matthew
	Nuckolls on Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:53:49 -0600)
Subject: Re: cute.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Matthew Nuckolls says
> Warning: The following message is apolitical.
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> > mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
> > ...
> > =6dKS
> > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>
> What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
> channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. 

The purpose is to create a persistent nym.  The signature, and public key
ensures that you know that this message is from the same person as you were
attempting to nit pick :-]

> I can't verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since
> you're anonymous.

True.  So it's only as good as the keys you might fetch from a keyserver
that you have no connection to in the web of trust.

You aren't supposed to link it to my True Name.

All that can be done is to get a signature from a timestamp server, and a
signature from Bill Stewart's nym key signing service.

I don't think there are any timestamp servers which provide key signatures.

Anyone want to start one?

This is important because it prevents someone else from generating more
keys with the same userID, such as happened with Tim May's blacknet key.
The only protection I have against that is the public record of my key
being posted to cypherpunks.  The http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
archive helps as a public record of first publishing of a key with this
userID.

A timestamp service signature on my key would be a better solution.

Amad3us

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQCVAwUBNFugu/KMuKFNFivhAQEJUwP7BUCoER9V60RDWQHLRNB1tGudDwWtQsRy
lnZJuI+VK9ljr5ze6O8b7/3WLItSqxyd4o+yyf/hx7SARqyZ1BV6KEljUXe7i3RQ
4Dy5H7/E+hZe9B4cN9OYs8A2oAcLKs5fIYSKqyEado6+IL4G9YrDTNmz28z/flmY
kvfVsPWKk7w=
=oXSI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0PokAlQMFEDRbjMPy
jLihTRYr4QEB38ED/1P9L2yLURl5B2GJok3eIf6EnF1ahFxSK7wuK++YfKRKb3Ku
oPTzwSXH+92PZX28dpC+aYu8Qb0dMSCk4Cadn9cxz4n42u509JU4z0o897lB4u2I
TxV3YKbBAQSv/jZ/Gq8drdFtemQXUPigNL6IjDAPc/REiHv7IZNKAniSBo1P
=N8Gg
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 14:07:14 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:07:14 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711012202.QAA01722@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:36:05 -0500
> From: Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org>
> Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free

> >License Plan #1
> 
> >                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
> >                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
> >royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
> >server)
> 
> >Add Certificate Server Integration:
> >                                          $5,000 advance on royalties
> 
> >Support/Upgrades
> >                            (includes email support by a trained
> >                            developer support technician)
> >                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments
> 

Hmmm, will have to rethink suggesting any PGP based products to my customers
now. I simply refuse to pay anybody any percentage of my product revenues
simply because I use their tool. I buy a SDK for a flat fee like I buy a
book, screwdriver, or a car. I can't imagine Black & Decker wanting a
percentage of the house sale simply because the carpenter used their hammers
and saws. Ford or Chevy wanting to see my income statement each year so they
can figure out how much I owe them because I drive their brand of vehicle to
my customers sites...yeah right.

$25k?...PGP Inc.....Get a clue. Hell, at those kinds of license fees I can
afford to develop my own libraries.

What I do with it and how much money I make with it is my income alone
(minus taxes) *unless* they want to cover some percentage of my business
costs (which I don't want).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From pooh at efga.org  Sat Nov  1 14:14:20 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:14:20 +0800
Subject: cute.
In-Reply-To: <199711011925.UAA05261@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971101165942.0365b498@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 02:53 PM 11/1/97 -0600, Matthew Nuckolls wrote:
>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

I don't think the message in question allows you to verify the state issued
id of the key owner, but it does allow you to verify that Amad3us's
message, and all similarly signed messages belong to the same person or
group .

I don't see any need for a key to be traceable to any specific person who
is in fact some particular natural person.  It seems to me that the fact
the message signature is good (I didn't check it) would be tend to prove he
is the owner of the key, since he can write messages with it.  Who he is on
his birth certificate and driver's license are beside the point.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Nov  1 14:19:50 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:19:50 +0800
Subject: democracy?!
In-Reply-To: <199711012037.OAA01218@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711012206.WAA04285@server.test.net>



Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:
> What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of
> democracies?

This is getting kind of repetitive.  Perhaps you could provide a
counter example to disprove my claim that democracies result in more
petty privacy and freedom invasive laws than would be the case with a
pure market anarchy (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
to consider as a comparison).  Do you have a democracy in mind which
doesn't result in lots thought crimes and other "crimes" which are so
far removed from normal free market schelling points.  It's just a
natural tendency of a democracy.

> > But they do share a characteristic:
> > distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
> > redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
> > micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
> > laws on thought crimes.
> 
> Again, demostrate your assertion(s).
> 
> Who? What? When? Where? Why? How?

Who?  What?  Current democracices.  When?  Now.  Why?  Market
distortion.  How?  Politicians brokering legalised mass theft and
market distortion for game theoretic reasons.

> >  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> > guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> > can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> > the constitution?
> 
> No, my responce is prove your assertions. 

You prove your assertion: are you saying there are no gun controls in
the US?

> Explain to me why you believe these are valid views 

because they are a statement of readily observable reality?

> and why they provide a more usable environment for understanding
> what is going on then others.

What others?  Give me some other views to compare for realistic value.

> > > At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated
> > > with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media
> > > and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking
> > > facts straight.
> > 
> > I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was low.
> 
> No, you said *nothing* about murder rate. 

You're right, what I said was:

: (Crime rate was reportedly pretty damn low too.)

murder rates were low to as far as I understood.  That's what I was
thinking when I wrote that.  (Of course I can't complain about your
statement above, you're right ... I didn't write what I was
thinking :-)

> What you did say was that back in the old days people ran around
> killing those who bothered them. Which isn't true either.

That bit was a statement of a belief that few people would be inclined
to invade someones privacy and attempt to impose sanctions for what
they viewed as thought crimes.  It takes governments or religions to
do this kind of thing, individuals aren't likely to -- the natural
schelling points would be far less invasive.  My thought was that if
some crazy person went invading peoples houses telling them how to
behave that that crazy person would have a decreased life expectancy
:-)

> > The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> > neighbours what they could think.
> 
> Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?
> Demonstrate your point.

I say: there were less laws in 1897 US than 1997 US.

Tell me: do you refute that claim?

How often do laws get repealed?  How often do new laws get bought in?
New laws are a lot more common.  Politicians want to produce new laws
because it makes it look like they're doing something useful to the
untrained eye.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From vznuri at netcom.com  Sat Nov  1 14:30:06 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:30:06 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b07aa62a7746@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711012215.OAA17651@netcom4.netcom.com>




the key battles will be waged in the courtrooms after any
laws get passed. frankly, I admit I am stunned with the
seeming ease with which various bad laws get passed. in my
youthful naivete I would have thought that an unconstitutional 
bill, or one with the slightest doubt, wouldn't even be
remotely *considered*. 

but what the last crypto bill 
runaround showed rather shockingly was that it is 
horrifyingly easy for bad bills to make it far into 
the legislative process, and a kind of frankensteinan
process can occur in which a bill ends up being manipulated
far beyond or to the direct opposite of 
its original intentions. moreover, virtually no congressmen
any more care about whether a law is constitutional--
it's a concept that is trampled underfoot in all the lobbying and
powermongering.

hence, I think we need to rely more on the courtroom-- it's
the only "language" that bureacrats understand. extremely 
expensive, but more effective. it forces us to put our money
where our mouths are. "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance"
and a lot of cash as well. the PRZ case proves the public
can support such a campaign. also tactics
as used by Softwar such as the FOIA attack approach. 

I predict that there are going to be major lawsuits of interest
to the cypherpunks in the near future. the telecom industry
is dragging its feet over implementing the orwellian FBI
digital wiretap law, last I heard. this is a big story that
Wired et. al. have not noticed imho. the telecom industry
from what I can tell considers it a bureacratic nightmare and
stalling as much as possible. just wait until it gets to the
point they feel like turning loose their armies of pit-bull
lawyers. these are companies that consider litigation virtually
part of their job description.

so the major GAK lawsuit might go like this. joe sixpack
uses a GAK system but "superencrypts" on top of it. fbi
gets a warrant but cannot read his mail, tries to prosecute
him on "obstruction of justice" or whatever, unrelated to
any actual crime. joe sixpack sues the FBI for violation
of the first amendment rights. it would be a great spectacle.

increasingly I think we should not be so alarmed when
orwellian laws pass. we need to fight them tooth and nail
in the beginning, but in many ways a court victory such as
with the CDA can be far more compelling to the government
bureacrats than lobbying.

and of course there is the "guerilla tactics" that everyone
here is so fond of advocating, which I think have some
appropriateness in some forms. even Gandhi advocated
"widespread civil disobedience"






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 15:35:13 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:35:13 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:06:03 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: democracy?!
> 
> Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:
> > What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of
> > democracies?
> 
> This is getting kind of repetitive. 

I agree, I keep asking for your examples and proof and you keep avoiding
providing them. You should consider being a politician or a lawyer. It's a
real pity you can't seem to approach this discussion in good faith and with
a sense of open analysis.

> Perhaps you could provide a
> counter example to disprove my claim that democracies result in more
> petty privacy and freedom invasive laws than would be the case with a
> pure market anarchy

Pure market anarchy? What the hell is a pure market? I know what a free
market is. Define it first. Explain how it, without an explicit
bill of rights, will protect my rights? Explain how we don't end up with a
Microsoft that owns everything which effectively reduces to a commercial
communism? Where are my 'exit' choices then? What in the world would
motivate such an entity to provide me with the resources to be a direct
competitor, something clearly not in its best interest for long-term
survival? How will others learn the technology and its applications outside
the purvue of these economic regulatory entities. The unlimited expansion of
the rail-roads in the 1800's is a excellent simili for comparison for both
what such a system would be like as well as the major problems it *doesn't*
address. Taminy Hall ring any bells? There was a free market political
system if there ever was one; pay me and I'll do it for you, don't and you 
can freeze in hell. A more modern example is the history of the
telecommunications companies which even after being broken up have now
re-combined so that we in effect only have 3 domestic tel-comm providers, and
they are discussing how to combine their resources. Further explain why such
a system will guarantee that my views will at least be addressed at some
level and not relegated a priori to a trash-heap because it goes against the
market analysis of some bunch of bean-counters? Who do I go to for
resolution of claims against these entities, the self-same entities? You
call that justice, equality, or even representation? Explain why and how such
a economic based system will guarantee my right to free speech or even to run
a small business which I currently do when it is clear that I am in open
competition with the very entities which provide me the resources to make the
money? What is the economic motivation for the resource controlling entities
to support my freedoms when it reduces their income? Explain how your system
prevents economic black-balling? Another implication is that we will see more
of the sort of business stategies implimented by PGP Inc. (for example) where
they want a percentage of your income *without* accepting a percentage of the
risk, economic tyrany is tyrany just the same. What recourse do I have if the
monopolies which arise in such a system decide that the services or resources
I need won't be provided? Am I then supposed to just calmly accept becoming
some prole for some zaibatsu? What happens when those monopolies decide that
if they work together they can further streamline the market, and my going to 
church or taking a vacation goes against those business requirements?

It sounds like you are supporting Hirshleifer who says:

"The mere fact of low income under anarchy... of itself provides no clear
indication as to what is likely to happen next."

[Personly, Hirshleifer is an idiot who apparently doesn't hang out on the
wrong side of the tracks and therefore has no clue as to what motivates
the poor or stupid.]

Which in effect breaks down into one of two results for individuals (which
all free market anarchists admit openly) who don't have sufficient income
to buy their indipendance and their say:

1.  they devote a great deal of effort to fighting to gain control over
    resources.

or 

2.  they capitulate to some other party and turn over their resources
    for food and shelter.

History would argue that people will accept neither of these as a solution
to day-to-day living. Economists should stay out of politics. It's one of
the reasons that at no point in either the Declaration of Indipendance or
the Constitution that businesses are given rights are even given
consideration except in regards of taxation of inter-state commerce. People
should have seperation of government and religion and that includes the
worship of wealth.

> (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
> to consider as a comparison).

If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore? If it provided such
a superior governmental system providing the maximum return on investment
why did it go away? Why did they instead elect to go with a king? Futher,
explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without demonstrating
the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual democracies such as
ancient Greek ran into? It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of
people who are related, share world-models and have limited resources and
quite another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not thousands 
of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?

>  Do you have a democracy in mind which
> doesn't result in lots thought crimes and other "crimes" which are so
> far removed from normal free market schelling points.  It's just a
> natural tendency of a democracy.

Thought crimes and such are not a result of any political system but a
result of the psychology of people. Please be so kind as to demonstrate
(along with my previous questions I am still waiting on) how a political
system effects the basic psychological development of the participants.
Further, explain how the belief in the resolving power of money is any
different than the resolving power of Buddha? You seem to be claiming that
if we pray to the all mighty dollar all will be right with the world.

> > > But they do share a characteristic:
> > > distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
> > > redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
> > > micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
> > > laws on thought crimes.
> > 
> > Again, demostrate your assertion(s).
> > 
> > Who? What? When? Where? Why? How?
> 
> Who?  What?  Current democracices.  When?  Now.  Why?  Market
> distortion.  How?  Politicians brokering legalised mass theft and
> market distortion for game theoretic reasons.

You seriously expect any reasonable person to be satisfied with such a
side-step?

And in case you hadn't realized it, the entire concept of free-market is a
result of those same game theories. Are you claiming that such free market
based systems will abandon game theory when it clearly provides insight into
how those free markets operate?

> > >  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> > > guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> > > can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> > > the constitution?
> > 
> > No, my responce is prove your assertions. 
> 
> You prove your assertion: are you saying there are no gun controls in

The simply fact that one has a constitution that guarantees certain rights is
*not* a guarantee that others won't find those rights threatening and want to
take them away (see Hirshleifer's two alternatives above). And your assertion
is that if we go to a free market anarchy then we no longer have to worry
about anyone telling us what we can and can't do? Please be so kind as to
demonstrate why a free market anarchy will prohibit monopolistic
organizations who would be just as threatened by armed individuals as any
other centralized organization?

> > Explain to me why you believe these are valid views 
> 
> because they are a statement of readily observable reality?

Where do I observe them? Give examples. Whose reality? Are you seriously
claiming that there is one absolute reality?

> > What you did say was that back in the old days people ran around
> > killing those who bothered them. Which isn't true either.
> 
> That bit was a statement of a belief that few people would be inclined
> to invade someones privacy and attempt to impose sanctions for what
> they viewed as thought crimes.  It takes governments or religions to
> do this kind of thing, individuals aren't likely to

Governments and religions *ARE* people. There are times where I think you
have said the stupidist thing possible and then you keep typing. Individuals
are the ones who killed the Jews, put pepper spray in the eyes of
demonstrators, and just about everything else that gets done.

> > > The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> > > neighbours what they could think.
> > 
> > Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?
> > Demonstrate your point.
> 
> I say: there were less laws in 1897 US than 1997 US.
> 
> Tell me: do you refute that claim?

I don't know, never looked at the numbers *AND* it isn't my job to refute
it. *IT IS* your job to prove it since it is *YOUR* claim and apparently has
some relevance to your thesis' validity. The number of laws at any given time
is irrelevant and immaterial to my position (nice attempt at a straw man).
It is plain stupidity to make claims and not have a clue as to the reality.
I shure as hell won't be asking people to put their lives in my hands unless
I could address such issues in a manner that they would feel comfortable with.
Gut feelings are almost always wrong. The mere fact that you feel that we
should take such claims at face value is a clear indication of what kind of
worth you place in others. You believe yourself to be an angel apparently.

Oh, and for the record. Studies of deaths during the 1800's indicate that
the vast majority were accidental self-inflicted gunshot wounds, far more
than the Indians or other 3rd parties inflicted combined.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 15:49:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:49:05 +0800
Subject: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711012339.AAA04637@basement.replay.com>



Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> At 09:06 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
> >>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
> >>      location of gunshots.
 
> In order for this system to be worth anything, it would have to be able to:
...
> 3.  Monitor conversations throughout the coverage area.  A suspicious sound
> preceded by a male voice saying "Give me your money, bitch" would be much
> more interesting than one preceded by a revving engine.  This would have
> the added benefits of allowing LEO's to track fugitives via the sound of
> their footsteps, their breathing, vehicle engine sounds, etc., as well as
> gathering voiceprint data from crimes in progress.
> 
> I think point 3 is the scariest.  A properly designed system could do
> voiceprint analysis of almost every word spoken in public, tie the
> conversations to the identities of the speakers, and archive the time,
> location, content and participants of every spoken conversation for long
> periods of time in a database that could be searched by keyword, speaker
> identity, time, and/or location.  The following searches could be done:
> 
> 1.  "I want a list of everyone who uttered the words 'buy' and 'crack' in
> the same sentence between 2100 and 0330 hours within 500 feet of 123 Maple
> Drive between August 7 and December 5."
> 
> 2.  "I want a list of all participants in conversations with Citizen-Unit
> 754-35-9710 which included the phrase 'BATF agent' in the last 6 months.
> 
> 3.  "I want a map of Citizen-Unit 754-35-9710's movements for the last 2
> weeks."
...

  Jonathan has hit on a point which illustrates the danger of the
surveillance technologies that are _already_ in place, vis a vis,
the Internet.
  Something lost in the euphoria over the citizen's radical new 
ability to access information: Yahoo Search--"Posts by _me_."
is that the same technolgy, and more, is at the fingertips of
the proverbial 4 Horsemen AND (now for the _really_ bad news)
at the fingertips of "John Law, the Citizen's Friend."

  Sadly, "garbage in--garbage out" _has_ always, and _will_ always,
result(ed) in such inanities as Drug Counselors being 'rated' at
the same level as Drug Dealers when the computer spits out the
results of a badly structured "search for the _bad_guys_."
  Naturally, when the police mistakenly kick in the door of a 
Drug Counselor, it is always a 'regretable tragedy' when they
shoot holes in the ten year old boy in the hallway who is holding
an over-ripe banana which 'looked like a weapon.' (Almost a true
life example, told to me by a friend who left her career in law
enforcement because she was still in possession of a conscience 
which was capable of recognizing that children killed by those 
who are 'just following orders' are just as dead as the children
killed by those who are 'out of control.')
{The person in question 'pulled' her shot at the last moment, upon
 realizing she was about to murder a child with a banana. Because
 the banana "could have been a weapon," an investigation was not
 required for an officer firing upon an unarmed citizen.
 I regard this lady as a wonderful example of someone who has held
 themself to a higher standard than their government regulators and
 their peers. What is a shame is that someone who _should_ be the
 type of person charged with protecting us had to leave the system
 because there is no future for those who choose sanity, logic and
 humanity over 'following orders.'}

  If you stop to consider Jonathan's examples of (paraphrased),
"give me the names of every citizen in location 'A' at time 'B'
who has used the word 'normal' in an email in the last ten years,
etc., etc." in light of Internet search engine capabilities being
extended to such technologies as 'citizen physical location 
monitoring', 'voice recognition', 'DNA pattern analysis' (e.g. 
heriditary potential for violence, etc.), then the future may be 
very scary, indeed.

Think about this:
"Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the person who is reading this
post is the 'only' individual, out of over 20 million processed by
the Never Wrong Criminal Identification Compter System, who is in
the post reader's general location, today, has completed their
high school education and has a family member who has committed
murder in the last five generations."
(What? You claim you are not the _only_ person in New York City,
 with a high school education. Nice try, pal, but the computer is
 never wrong.)
"Although no murder has been committed yet, statistics show that
someone in that area will be, within the next two days, so I ask
that you return a verdict of 'Guilty of murder in the first degree'
and we will pick up and execute the reader of this post as soon
as a body turns up."

...in light of _this_:
A citizen was found guilty of murder by a jury, based on the slim
eyewitness testimony of a passerby who caught a fleeting glimpse
of the murderer, despite testimony from over a dozen people that
the defendant was, at the time of the murder, attending a wedding
thousands of miles away.
Some of those giving testimony did not even know the man prior to
meeting him at the wedding, and were in no way related to the man,
but the jury was still swayed by the prosecutor's claim that this
wide variety of law-abiding, average citizens were lying to try
and protect the defendant.

Do you have a great-great-grandfather who committed murder? Then 
you are, by heridity, a potential murderer. It's in your blood!
This is '10 points against' you. All of the kindness you have don
in your life does not count in your favor, because any fool can
see that it was done in an attempt to trick the jury.

> The Big Brother potential of such a system should be obvious.  What is
> really scary is that such a system could be built mostly with currently
> existing hardware, and at most a few man-years of software development.  If
> each node in the network performs its own speech to text conversion and
> archiving, and coordinates with a central voiceprint ID server, (which
> could also provide the sync signal that the nodes would use to
> cross-reference between nodes to locate sounds) each node could consist of
> a Pentium 200 with some specialized audio signal processing cards and 15-20
> GB of storage.  The only really new thing required would be an .AVI-style
> format for storing MPEG audio, a text transcript of said audio (which would
> need to include keywords for gunshots, passing vehicles, and other events
> of interest), and location coordinates (updated on a second to second
> basis) which could be indexed for reasonably efficient searching.

  Of course, Jonathan is a raving lunatic for suggesting these
outlandish
possibilities, much like the mentally unstable people who history
records
as believing that one day people would be able to send electromagnetic
waves through the atmosphere and have their images and voices appear on
machines in distant places.

  Seriously, history has shown that any technology capable of being used
for great evil _will_ be used for great evil.
  The reason that technology radically increases the ante in the game 
between good and evil is that if one 'evil' person is in control of
technology that ten million 'good' people do not have access to, then
the basic humanity or inhumanity of humankind, in general, is really
not an important part of the equation which will determine the future.
  (I challenge all other cypherpunks to a fistfight, the only rule 
being that I can use an Uzi, and you can't.)

  Remember...when all is said and done, my dad was an optomist.

George Orwelle Jr.






From judith at SABOTAGE.ORG  Sat Nov  1 16:00:46 1997
From: judith at SABOTAGE.ORG (Judith)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:00:46 +0800
Subject: french cypherpunks
Message-ID: <19970901014525.47385@damage.sabotage.org>



Hi there,


Are there any french cypherpunks or french
speaking canadian cypherpunks on this list ?

I have to discuss privacy on the net in french.
To read some articles on this subject would be very helpfull
to learn to use the right type of jargon: the dutch-french dictionary 
does not handle jargon of any type. 

Btw: did anybody scan their photo's of the HIP '97 (in this case
near the cypherpunkerstent-site) yet?
I couldn't find any.


Merci,

best regards,




Judith






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov  1 16:04:43 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:04:43 +0800
Subject: cute.
In-Reply-To: <19971101145349.14850@ultra7.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102801b08164c3d437@[207.167.93.63]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 2:59 PM -0700 11/1/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>At 02:53 PM 11/1/97 -0600, Matthew Nuckolls wrote:
>>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.
>
>I don't think the message in question allows you to verify the state issued
>id of the key owner, but it does allow you to verify that Amad3us's
>message, and all similarly signed messages belong to the same person or
>group .
>
>I don't see any need for a key to be traceable to any specific person who
>is in fact some particular natural person.  It seems to me that the fact
>the message signature is good (I didn't check it) would be tend to prove he
>is the owner of the key, since he can write messages with it.  Who he is on
>his birth certificate and driver's license are beside the point.

I think Robert really "gets" it.

I have in the past been critical of some of his views, and suspected there
were things about crypto and rights he just didn't get.

But everything he says here is right on.

- --Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



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lx+DYDA83N0vKdkCSvTpAD9g
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From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Nov  1 16:42:28 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:42:28 +0800
Subject: Unlocking crypto-secrets Wired article
Message-ID: <199711020042.TAA27772@cti06.citenet.net>



>From: Dwight Arthur <dwightarthur at mindspring.com>
>To: "Dale R. Worley" <worley at ariadne.com>
>CC: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: Unlocking crypto-secrets Wired article

> I have no inside knowledge but picture yourself
> as a senator, really concerned about getting re-elected. Picture
> yourself looking at video of the victims of some terrorist act somewhere
> in the world, staggering out of some ruined building and expiring on
> camera. Then picture yourself hearing that if you vote the wrong way and
> this happens in the U.S. (or to U.S. citizens anywhere) your name will
> be in the papers as the reason that law enforcement was unable to
> prevent this. It's hard to argue.

And alsom maybe Jim Bell's stuff...  Does anybody have any knowledge or heard any 
rumors of Bell's essay circulating among political circles?

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C







From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sat Nov  1 17:10:11 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:10:11 +0800
Subject: cute.
Message-ID: <199711020051.QAA23884@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Amad3us wrote:
>Matthew Nuckolls says
>> What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>> channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. 
>
>The purpose is to create a persistent nym.  The signature, and public
>key ensures that you know that this message is from the same person
>as you were attempting to nit pick :-]

It has been my experience that it is more fun to operate a persistent
identity than to post unsigned and unverifiable messages.

Providing the key is at least a convenience for people who don't have
it already - it saved me a trip to the key server.

>> I can't verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since
>> you're anonymous.
>
>True.  So it's only as good as the keys you might fetch from a
>keyserver that you have no connection to in the web of trust.
>
>You aren't supposed to link it to my True Name.
>
>All that can be done is to get a signature from a timestamp server,
>and a signature from Bill Stewart's nym key signing service.

What would be really nice is if the mailing list machines time stamped
messages.

There was a discussion a little while ago suggesting that toad.com had
been compromised by people who were sowing dissension by partially
distributing certain messages.  Had toad signed all of its messages,
it would be possible to obtain evidence supporting this hypothesis
without relying entirely on the word of people we may not know.

Had somebody compromised toad, they would still have to correctly sign
messages.  Later it would have been possible to prove this had
occurred by comparing messages and signatures.

This would also prevent an attack where somebody forges mail from a
cypherpunks list machine to flush out identities.  If the attacker
sends a unique message to every person, he or she will be able to
break an identity if the message is replied to on the list.

>This is important because it prevents someone else from generating more
>keys with the same userID, such as happened with Tim May's blacknet key.
>The only protection I have against that is the public record of my key
>being posted to cypherpunks.  The http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
>archive helps as a public record of first publishing of a key with this
>userID.

I'm not sure a timestamp matters that much for "authenticating" your
key.  After all, you don't own "Amad3us", you own key 0x4D162BBE1.

If another "Amad3us" shows up, what matters if their string of posts
are worth reading, not whether they borrowed your handle.

It would cause confusion, but since the cypherpunks are so good at
slinging bits, we should be able to handle this.  It might even have
an advantage: reporters and secret police types will have a harder
time dealing with the cypherpunks without adopting some of our
technology and ideas and sharing them with others.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 17:24:35 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:24:35 +0800
Subject: Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw
Message-ID: <199711020120.TAA02325@einstein.ssz.com>



The fundamental flaw with the justification of a Free Market Anarchy and
also the fundamental condemnation of Democracy is that of taxation.

However, the theory of democracy does not in any way address the issues of
taxation, only how laws are made and what the boundaries on those laws are.
In fact, until about the first third of this century there was NO personal
taxation in this country at the federal level. Clear prima facia , and to use
Beck's verbage 'real', evidence that the assertion that personal taxation and
democracy are irrevocably wedded. Ask yourself, why is it that no free
market anarchist *ever* mentions commenality in humanity? Why do their have
inherent and implicit in their systems a class structure? They would have
you believe this is natural, it is not. Class structures are reflections of
the beliefs of the people, not some fundamental law of nature.

Furhermore, Free Market Anarchy does not address the issues of protection
from abuse. It does not recognize in any manner any mechanism for redress of
grievances unless you happen to be one of the few who controls the wealth.
It further assumes that those who don't have wealth will willingly take this
station in life as a given and simply work for those who do have wealth and
accept without resentment that they will forever be denied any sort of
opportunity to change their station in life except at the whim of the power
brokers. It further does not in any way address issues of life, liberty, or
pursuits of happines - only monetary wealth. It is clear that having wealth
does not in any manner guarantee any sort of empathy for others in the holder.
If anthing, history demonstrates that such 'lords of wealth' are pragmatic
about collecting wealth to the point of predation.

This argument from the specific to the general is fundamentaly flawed and
the conclusion suffers because of it.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. How that power is
obtained, by vote or specie, is irrelevant as clearly shown by history.

Some hold that the majority of the populace suffer taxation at the point of
a gun. This assertion is also false. There have historicaly been several
political parties which have promised to eliminate personal taxation. In
every case those parties could not control more than a truly minimal
percentage of the vote. Yes, people say taxation is too high, they do not
hold the assertion that taxes should be completely eliminated.

Free Market Anarchies are doomed to the same sort of death, and if ever
implimented the same sorts of abuse, as all other non-democratic systems.

Also, recognize that those who support such systems have a set of commen
character flaws. First, they can't differentiate the implimentation from the
theory of political systems. They would have you believe that if a given
implimentation of a system is flawed or broken than all systems of that ilk
are then broken or flawed. Clearly history does not support such assertions.
In short, they would throw the baby out with the bathwater. Secondly, these
in general are the sorts of people who find glee when they see a polic
officer run over in the street. Do you seriously believe that anyone this
cold and uncarring would not hesitate for an instant in putting pepper spray
in your eyes? Thirdly, they express a view which I call Theory X equality.
In short, as long as they are the ones making the profit, the fact that you
suffer for it, justly or not, is irrelevant and justified. In more prosaic
words, the ends *always* justifies the means. An assertion that history also
does not support.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 17:27:39 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:27:39 +0800
Subject: Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw (fwd) [correction]
Message-ID: <199711020123.TAA02381@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
> Subject: Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw
> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 19:20:20 -0600 (CST)

> The fundamental flaw with the justification of a Free Market Anarchy and
> also the fundamental condemnation of Democracy is that of taxation.
> 
> However, the theory of democracy does not in any way address the issues of
> taxation, only how laws are made and what the boundaries on those laws are.
> In fact, until about the first third of this century there was NO personal
> taxation in this country at the federal level. Clear prima facia , and to use
> Beck's verbage 'real', evidence that the assertion that personal taxation and
> democracy are irrevocably wedded.
                                  ^
                                  is false.


> Ask yourself, why is it that no free
> market anarchist *ever* mentions commenality in humanity? Why do their have
> inherent and implicit in their systems a class structure? They would have
> you believe this is natural, it is not. Class structures are reflections of
> the beliefs of the people, not some fundamental law of nature.
> 
> Furhermore, Free Market Anarchy does not address the issues of protection
> from abuse. It does not recognize in any manner any mechanism for redress of
> grievances unless you happen to be one of the few who controls the wealth.
> It further assumes that those who don't have wealth will willingly take this
> station in life as a given and simply work for those who do have wealth and
> accept without resentment that they will forever be denied any sort of
> opportunity to change their station in life except at the whim of the power
> brokers. It further does not in any way address issues of life, liberty, or
> pursuits of happines - only monetary wealth. It is clear that having wealth
> does not in any manner guarantee any sort of empathy for others in the holder.
> If anthing, history demonstrates that such 'lords of wealth' are pragmatic
> about collecting wealth to the point of predation.
> 
> This argument from the specific to the general is fundamentaly flawed and
> the conclusion suffers because of it.
> 
> Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. How that power is
> obtained, by vote or specie, is irrelevant as clearly shown by history.
> 
> Some hold that the majority of the populace suffer taxation at the point of
> a gun. This assertion is also false. There have historicaly been several
> political parties which have promised to eliminate personal taxation. In
> every case those parties could not control more than a truly minimal
> percentage of the vote. Yes, people say taxation is too high, they do not
> hold the assertion that taxes should be completely eliminated.
> 
> Free Market Anarchies are doomed to the same sort of death, and if ever
> implimented the same sorts of abuse, as all other non-democratic systems.
> 
> Also, recognize that those who support such systems have a set of commen
> character flaws. First, they can't differentiate the implimentation from the
> theory of political systems. They would have you believe that if a given
> implimentation of a system is flawed or broken than all systems of that ilk
> are then broken or flawed. Clearly history does not support such assertions.
> In short, they would throw the baby out with the bathwater. Secondly, these
> in general are the sorts of people who find glee when they see a polic
> officer run over in the street. Do you seriously believe that anyone this
> cold and uncarring would not hesitate for an instant in putting pepper spray
> in your eyes? Thirdly, they express a view which I call Theory X equality.
> In short, as long as they are the ones making the profit, the fact that you
> suffer for it, justly or not, is irrelevant and justified. In more prosaic
> words, the ends *always* justifies the means. An assertion that history also
> does not support.
> 
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    |
>    |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
>    |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
>    |                                                                    |
>    |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
>    |                                                                    | 
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
> 






From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Nov  1 18:26:50 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:26:50 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <199711020216.SAA06401@proxy4.ba.best.com>



At 05:02 PM 10/30/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
> Even if you were to use CMR, it is dumb, dumb, dumb, to allow the
> snoop key to remain after the message has passed the enforcer -- it
> should strip it off on the way out.

Unless, of course, the real intention of CMR is GMR.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Nov  1 18:28:04 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:28:04 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
Message-ID: <199711020216.SAA06135@proxy4.ba.best.com>



At 10:20 AM 10/30/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> Makes it easier for cops to see that you're not a threat,
> or that you are a threat.  If your underwear's not Kevlar,
> it's not contributing much to the process, and cops are
> probably more embarassed about beating up naked people.

Watch out for toilet plungers.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From srvce at micro-net.com  Sun Nov  2 10:58:04 1997
From: srvce at micro-net.com (srvce at micro-net.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:58:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hello, thought you should see this
Message-ID: <199711021857.NAA10961@candy.micro-net.net>



LEARN THE SECRET TO MAKING OVER $2750.00 A
WEEK, PART-TIME WITH YOUR HOME COMPUTER!

It's fun, it's rewarding, and it's easy.  This is so simple, most
children could do it!  All you need is a computer and E-Mail
address to begin making excellent money while relaxing in 
the comfort of your own home.  

All it takes is a couple hours a day, and you'll have more than 
$2750.00 arriving in your mailbox every week!  Right now there 
are only a few people around the country who know how to do 
this.  And these few people are having the greatest time of their 
lives while their computers make them a fortune.  They don't 
want anyone else to know how they're making all this money,
but we at Crown Industries have decided to let a few more
people in on the secret.  

Even if you are happy with your current job, you can use this 
system in your spare time to create a huge extra income.  And 
let us assure you this system is completely legal.  We are so 
sure anyone can make a fortune with this unique system, that 
we will even let you try it out for 30 days!  If you're not 100% 
satisfied, just send it back within 30 days for a full refund.  

Once you begin to see how easy it is to make money with your
computer, you will wish you had received this letter a long time 
ago.  Anyone can do this, and since very little of your time is 
required, you will have a lot more time to spend doing the things 
you have always wanted to do.

So take the first step toward financial freedom and order this 
powerful money making system today!  You'll be glad you did!

This offer will only be available for a limited time!  To insure 
you receive your copy, order today!

To receive your copy of our incredible computer money making 
system, along with a full 30 day money back guarantee, send 
a check or money order for $14.95 payable to:

Crown Industries
1630 North Main St. Suite# 310
Walnut Creek,  CA  94596

Allow 4-6 days for delivery

P.S.  You simply must see this to believe it.  Never in the 
history of America has it been possible to make this much 
money spending just a couple hours a day.  We guarantee 
that anyone can make more than $2750.00 a week, part-
time using our system and just one home computer or 
you get your money back!  













From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 19:27:54 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:27:54 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>




After seeing the intents of PGP Inc. with the
release of their new PGP that breaks the old
free versions, I have all but written them off 
as anything but the Enemy, and am waiting for
a public reply on the list by Tim May to make
it official.

But now what? Please someone answer my questions
about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
Is this so? Also, the direction they seem to be
heading is in providing more and more non-free
GAKked product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions
freeware? If so, can't others - a group of 
individuals - take that source code and build off
of that? Piss on these assholes and their licensing
fees. It was inevitable, anyway. They are a 
corporation after all, and the corporations are 
not on "our" sides.

I can see a scenario where government is impotent
and destroyed within 10 years. What will remain
and will be harder to eradicate are the corporations.
I don't think we should rely on corporate software
whenever possible, because it always comes with
an ulterior motive. Is there an effort to maintain
a version of PGP based on the free 2.x sources
that is not affiliateed with the fuckwads at 
PGP Inc.? If not, is it high time some of us 
began such an effort?






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 19:44:24 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:44:24 +0800
Subject: LAPD reject surplus bayonets [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711020342.VAA02835@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

>                     LAPD REJECTS, RETURNS SURPLUS BAYONETS
>                                        
>      Sheriff November 1, 1997
>      Web posted at: 10:03 p.m. EST (0303 GMT)
>      
>      SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- The Los Angeles Police Department has
>      decided to return the bayonets it has received from a U.S. military
>      surplus program.






From Opportunity at cyber-pages.net  Sun Nov  2 11:49:05 1997
From: Opportunity at cyber-pages.net (Opportunity at cyber-pages.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:49:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox everyday?  I am!!
Message-ID: <>


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!















------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 158        
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did
have
seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and
it's not
for me. We owe it all to MLM.
            Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

     The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system
is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
of
money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked
this
out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
            Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

     Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that
the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I
wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised
when I
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile,
it got
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll
make
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing
about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people
live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
          Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

      This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit
our
jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on
our
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you
do
it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden
opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
            Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET 
 STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Re: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox
everyday?  I
am!!
Date:    97-10-22 22:51:12 EST
From:    AWan0585
To:      Altophil

In a message dated 97-10-22 11:19:50 EDT, you write:

<< 
  I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!















------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 150          
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now!






From Opportunity at cyber-pages.net  Sun Nov  2 11:49:05 1997
From: Opportunity at cyber-pages.net (Opportunity at cyber-pages.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:49:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox everyday?  I am!!
Message-ID: <>


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!















------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 158        
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did
have
seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and
it's not
for me. We owe it all to MLM.
            Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

     The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system
is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
of
money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked
this
out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
            Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

     Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that
the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I
wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised
when I
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile,
it got
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll
make
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing
about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people
live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
          Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

      This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit
our
jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on
our
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you
do
it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden
opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
            Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET 
 STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Re: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox
everyday?  I
am!!
Date:    97-10-22 22:51:12 EST
From:    AWan0585
To:      Altophil

In a message dated 97-10-22 11:19:50 EDT, you write:

<< 
  I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!















------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 150          
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now!






From blancw at cnw.com  Sat Nov  1 19:49:14 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:49:14 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971101195003.0068de90@cnw.com>



Vlad the Mad wrote:

>hence, I think we need to rely more on the courtroom-- it's
>the only "language" that bureacrats understand. extremely 
>expensive, but more effective. it forces us to put our money
>where our mouths are. "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance"
>and a lot of cash as well. the PRZ case proves the public
>can support such a campaign. also tactics
>as used by Softwar such as the FOIA attack approach. 
.......................................................

I'm agreeing with Vlad (euwwwww), mainly because I've had the same idea for
a long time, about the effect of winning intellectual battles in a
courtroom.   This is a prime location for the airing-out of ideas,
clarification of concepts, and making decisive conclusions about what is/is
not the right way for governming bodies to behave, to do, to treat
citizens, in relation to the original ideal (and could that ideal be
clarified even further, for those who still don't get it?).   It would
require some 'real' libertarian lawyers of the kind cpunks could support.
But wouldn't it be grand to watch as they decimated the opposition, as they
reminded everyone of the raison d'etre for this exceptional nation, and as
they 'put it to' a jury, in black & white, just what the deal is in a free
society?

Shoot, we don't need another President - just a good lawyer.

Just imagine!
Dream on!
    ..
Blanc






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 20:09:06 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:09:06 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711020403.WAA02950@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 19:50:49 -0800
> From: Blanc <blancw at cnw.com>
> Subject: Re: effective GACK fighting

> Vlad the Mad wrote:
> 
> >hence, I think we need to rely more on the courtroom-- it's
> >the only "language" that bureacrats understand. extremely 
> >expensive, but more effective. it forces us to put our money
> >where our mouths are. "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance"
> >and a lot of cash as well. the PRZ case proves the public
> >can support such a campaign. also tactics
> >as used by Softwar such as the FOIA attack approach. 
> .......................................................
> 
> I'm agreeing with Vlad (euwwwww), mainly because I've had the same idea for
> a long time, about the effect of winning intellectual battles in a
> courtroom.   This is a prime location for the airing-out of ideas,
> clarification of concepts, and making decisive conclusions about what is/is
> not the right way for governming bodies to behave, to do, to treat
> citizens, in relation to the original ideal (and could that ideal be
> clarified even further, for those who still don't get it?).   It would
> require some 'real' libertarian lawyers of the kind cpunks could support.

I also agree. It is high time those of who believe in our rights put their
money where our mouth is.

But, why do we need a lawyer? We have the right to represent ourselves, why
let somebody who has a intimate stake in the status quo represent us?

Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. Also, let's start
something relating to the 2nd. We should also move to have an amendment
which requires all existing and future legislation pass constitutional
review *prior* to being voted into existance. We should also move to have an
amendment that *requires* government employees be responsible for their
actions on a individual basis and eliminate the protection that Congress has
put in place, that is *not* in the Constitution. We should further move to
have the seizure laws revoked because they are not constitutional. The drug
laws should also be attacked on that level as well.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov  1 20:20:01 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:20:01 +0800
Subject: cute.
Message-ID: <d1a2b3075f99c1845d71b5c406bf09c5@anon.efga.org>



>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

Well, there's some point in it. If I send an anonymous message, sign it with
a key, and then include that key you can use that key to verify that it
indeed was the key used to sign the message. For this to be of any value,
however, future messages should be signed with that key but should not
include it. This just proves that the person who wrote the last message is
the same guy who wrote the first. That's about the only poitn I can see,
though.






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov  1 20:38:44 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:38:44 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971101195003.0068de90@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b081a429b97f@[207.167.93.63]>



At 8:50 PM -0700 11/1/97, Blanc wrote:

>I'm agreeing with Vlad (euwwwww), mainly because I've had the same idea for
>a long time, about the effect of winning intellectual battles in a
>courtroom.   This is a prime location for the airing-out of ideas,

Where have you folks been the last couple of years? Given that the list has
been discussing the Bernstein case (and 30 of us even attended some of
Judge Patel's hearings in SF), and the Junger and Karn cases have been
extensively reported, and the CDA was overturned, I'd certainly say court
battles have been a priority for a long time.

In fact, the EFF has more or less officially de-emphasized legislative work
in favor of spending more time and money on court cases. The EFF was, of
course, deeply involved in the Bernstein case.

I'm not sure what Detweiler's point was, as I only saw his comment through
Blanc's quotes, but if he was calling for more of a legal focus, I think
this was realized by many a few years ago.

Certainly I don't know of any Cypherpunks pushing for legislative
solutions. Most of us have explicitly condemned the legislative actions,
realzing that Congress can only make things worse.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov  1 20:54:28 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:54:28 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971101201844.030ea1a8@popd.netcruiser>

At 04:24 AM 11/2/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:

>But now what? Please someone answer my questions
>about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
>compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
>Is this so? Also, the direction they seem to be
>heading is in providing more and more non-free
>GAKked product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions
>freeware? If so, can't others - a group of 
>individuals - take that source code and build off
>of that? Piss on these assholes and their licensing
>fees. It was inevitable, anyway. They are a 
>corporation after all, and the corporations are 
>not on "our" sides.

PGP 5.x is interoperable with PGP 2.6.x as long as you confine yourself to
using PGP 2.6.x RSA keys.  When you encrypt a message to a mix of RSA
(2.6.x) and ElGamal (5.x) keys, you will get a message stating that if you
insist on encrypting to the ElGamal keys, then 2.6.x users will not be able
to read the message.

I agree that the licensing fees posted are outrageous, but at least PGP
Inc. did release the source code so you CAN live without their SDK if you
are willing to analyze it.  How many other companies release source code?
How many other companies release freeware products like PGP 5.0?  They have
to make a few bucks here and there to stay in business, although I think
they are pricing themselves out of the market with their SDK fees.

PGP Inc. is not the enemy, although maybe some of the folks there ought to
have their heads examined.  When they implement mandatory CMR/GMR/GAK and
stop releasing source code, then I will throw rocks, too.  Until then, I
will continue to use their products, and sit on my high horse and laugh at
their marketing folks...


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
-------------- next part --------------
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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Nov  1 21:37:33 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:37:33 +0800
Subject: What I've been up to
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971102061929.23666A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

As some of you may know, I have been working on a skunk works project to
further knowledge about smartcards and add smartcard support to crypto
applications. 

While the latter isn't nearly ready for release, the former has resulted
in a number of tools some on this list should find useful. Namely, we have
a truly universal smartcard reader and software. Unlike the proprietary
protocol garbage the smartcard vendors will sell you for lots of cash
together with their overpriced toolkits, our reader uses only ISO
standards and can handle *any* smartcard. 

In addition, we developed drivers and fully-automated scanning 
software for UNIX and Win32. If you don't get results just by
typing "scan", then whatever you inserted isn't a smartcard.  :-) 

At this time, we need sample smartcards and documentation. Anonymous
donations of both is encouraged. For more information, please see
https://www.cypherpunks.to/

All questions/offers should be directed to scard-admin at cypherpunks.to

- -- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFwSMvXUPTw3WtkkEQLSZQCg8EVW2bprGr4E21W8Qg6EELc9+gcAoMdZ
6LbtU7WCfpfsYPi+Gj4l5ecX
=5Bi8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From pooh at efga.org  Sat Nov  1 21:56:14 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:56:14 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971102005347.006b8be4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:24 AM 11/2/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>But now what? Please someone answer my questions
>about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
>compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
>Is this so?

My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
message is signed, and my key is included within the message for those of you 
who have software that discards the non signed portion.  (If you don't know 
how to extract my key, copy it and fix the broken dashed line, or use a 
keyserver)

This is a store bought copy of Eudora 3.0.1 upgraded to 3.0.3 with PGP 5.0, 
and the $5 RSA add in from PGP.  If anyone who knows how to properly use PGP 
has a problem reading my signature, or my key, please let me know.

  -- Robert

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

mQBNAzIcsQUAAAECAOjT/WYy6iCh07ZEaohBwGOjWJc0RKarTJ1ZfKK3feoWW7QK
Wb13gBvgnMQeEo92OsW3nxwV20NGQakaFFeDk1kABRG0FFBvb2ggPHBvb2hAZWZn
YS5vcmc+tCpSb2JlcnQgQS4gQ29zdG5lciA8cmNvc3RuZXJAaW50ZXJnYXRlLm5l
dD4=
=kINy
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNFwVZUGpGhRXg5NZAQFIngH+K1v8JQD8g03mCtHb6ER3qHUvzwHLCOh2
npZUxxK0VFu23hpmc1wUCCZzEGTGYaoy2sxWYQy90eJJvnUU82/EeQ==
=czqz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Sat Nov  1 22:06:49 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:06:49 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <9217d0b2a7cb5c14a35269732b7d57a7@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>[Ed Note: Jim Choate wrote:]
>> At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders
>> associated with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular
>> entertainment media and spin-doctor culture would have you
>> believe. Get your fucking facts straight.
>
>I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was
>low.  The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling
>their neighbours what they could think.

It's not hard to believe that this was the case in some places and in
some times, but a term like the "Wild West" covers a lot of time and
territory.

For example, in San Francisco in the early 1860s there was a very high
murder rate, something like 1000 people were killed in one year and
nobody was convicted.  (Forgive minor factual errors as I haven't
studied this in awhile.)  I have also read reports of substantial
violence in the mining communities of Nevada and California with
minimal enforcement action taken.  It seems likely to me that the low
murder rate claim has some exceptions, even if we ignore the mutual
atrocities between various native groups, Americans, and Mexicans.

I would also like to see how pervasive the temperance movement was in
the Wild West.  By the late nineteenth century my impression is that
it was going strong in the Wild West although it possibly hadn't
grasped the levers of power yet.

>> Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run
>> around having gun fights all the time.
>
>Right!

I'm pretty sure there were gunfights, but that they happened a lot
more quickly and a lot less formally than we see on TV.  But, I could
believe that overall they happened infrequently.  Anybody have a
reference?

I am told that knife fighting was a lot more common than is widely
known.  A lot of poor runaways showed up to work in various mining
towns and they were unable to afford expensive toys like guns.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFu5n5aWtjSmRH/5AQGsoQf7BfsZArO2JaJEGVAw9IzRGEQeykgrkFzc
JXmCkT32PmZOA0uhMxPW9cC7ehmijwhr7HOVOKO7j4BlxqXemD4oV5M9/EwQfqzU
rFgJJ/GIW5LF7h+HCI8gjsoS0VJtbpDs/d2zsuCOvwM4yXkQ330jwaAfk/iErgYs
3thfm7ZAgYcLJPeeCDc541b+eKAtxvbHoOCp3UTqM3EBws0NpDlD9+A3ZzT1a87e
UAUsvesecZyz3e1ZHlqw4L08eHdmaMxtkHE3bDrnfJQA4Ij4HPa1ayMMlJmC1XhR
U7PEl8CWC9dSLN2Z6pUpC0pIp3A6zqhISPxDW8nGpUipKwhojicXfQ==
=lL5j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From 00291856 at unesesames.com  Sun Nov  2 14:18:57 1997
From: 00291856 at unesesames.com (00291856 at unesesames.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:18:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: **We will Pay You to use Your Computer at Home to Set-up New Accts.
Message-ID: <>



	***** Please Note:  This is NOT a business opportunity. *****

Dear Online Neighbor:

Please read carefully because we are very serious and this offer is 
Very Real.  

	WE WILL PAY YOU TO USE YOUR COMPUTER AT HOME!

If you are seriously interested in making $200.00 to $300.00 per day 
at home answering the phone and processing new accounts for us on 
your computer, then please call us immediately.

Our Number is:  

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Note: We Will Reimburse you for the call when you Receive
              Your First Check from us.

We are a Telecommunications Company with the Best Offer of All Time - 
800 Number Service with No Per Minute charges.  AT&T, Sprint, and 
MCI charge between 12 cents and 26 cents per minute.  We charge Zero 
cents per minute.  Our service is offered to each customer at a Low 
Flat Rate per month.  Our customers will no longer have to worry 
about a $200.00, $400.00, $500.00, or more phone bill for 800 number 
service.  Our Low Flat-Rate 800 Number Service is truly the best 
offer available today.

With our Great Service and Product Pricing, we are Extremely Busy.  
We need more Telecommunications Representatives to help us with the 
volume of calls that we receive each day.

By Simply Answering your phone and using your Computer to Set-Up 
New Accounts, you should easily Make $200.00 to $300.00 per day or 
$1,000.00 to $1,500.00 Per Week.

Please call us if you are serious and ready to join a Professional 
Team.

Once again, Our Number is:

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Keep in mind that We Will Reimburse You for the call on Your
 First Pay Day!

We will be more than happy to answer any further questions that you may have.
Thank you very much for reading our letter and we hope that you will decide to
become a part of our Winning Team.

**** P.S. PLEASE do not hit "Reply" and send us e-mail as we will NOT get it. ****

It is NOT necessary to send us an e-mail asking to be "removed" from our list as we will
assume that you are not interested if you do not respond to this letter.  We will respect
your wishes by not sending you any further letters in the future.  Best Regards.






From 00291856 at unesesames.com  Sun Nov  2 14:18:57 1997
From: 00291856 at unesesames.com (00291856 at unesesames.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:18:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: **We will Pay You to use Your Computer at Home to Set-up New Accts.
Message-ID: <>



	***** Please Note:  This is NOT a business opportunity. *****

Dear Online Neighbor:

Please read carefully because we are very serious and this offer is 
Very Real.  

	WE WILL PAY YOU TO USE YOUR COMPUTER AT HOME!

If you are seriously interested in making $200.00 to $300.00 per day 
at home answering the phone and processing new accounts for us on 
your computer, then please call us immediately.

Our Number is:  

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Note: We Will Reimburse you for the call when you Receive
              Your First Check from us.

We are a Telecommunications Company with the Best Offer of All Time - 
800 Number Service with No Per Minute charges.  AT&T, Sprint, and 
MCI charge between 12 cents and 26 cents per minute.  We charge Zero 
cents per minute.  Our service is offered to each customer at a Low 
Flat Rate per month.  Our customers will no longer have to worry 
about a $200.00, $400.00, $500.00, or more phone bill for 800 number 
service.  Our Low Flat-Rate 800 Number Service is truly the best 
offer available today.

With our Great Service and Product Pricing, we are Extremely Busy.  
We need more Telecommunications Representatives to help us with the 
volume of calls that we receive each day.

By Simply Answering your phone and using your Computer to Set-Up 
New Accounts, you should easily Make $200.00 to $300.00 per day or 
$1,000.00 to $1,500.00 Per Week.

Please call us if you are serious and ready to join a Professional 
Team.

Once again, Our Number is:

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Keep in mind that We Will Reimburse You for the call on Your
 First Pay Day!

We will be more than happy to answer any further questions that you may have.
Thank you very much for reading our letter and we hope that you will decide to
become a part of our Winning Team.

**** P.S. PLEASE do not hit "Reply" and send us e-mail as we will NOT get it. ****

It is NOT necessary to send us an e-mail asking to be "removed" from our list as we will
assume that you are not interested if you do not respond to this letter.  We will respect
your wishes by not sending you any further letters in the future.  Best Regards.






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Nov  1 22:48:12 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:48:12 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971102005347.006b8be4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971102073541.23843A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:

> 
> My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
> message is signed, and my key is included within the message for those of you 
> who have software that discards the non signed portion.  (If you don't know 
> how to extract my key, copy it and fix the broken dashed line, or use a 
> keyserver)

Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows
this. He simply hopes that there are some people that don't know this. The
idea behind the original post and others like it over the last few days is
to spread FUD about PGP 5.0 after other attacks failed for lack of merrit.
If you repeat a lie often enough, eventually some people will believe you. 
PSYOPS 101. Let's not fall for it.

[Yes, I know that DSA keys can not be read by PGP 2.6. Neither will Word
1.0 read Word 7.0 files. So what?]

 -- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From adam at homeport.org  Sat Nov  1 23:30:59 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:30:59 +0800
Subject: Japan's Constitution and GAK
Message-ID: <199711020716.CAA14575@homeport.org>



Does someone have access to a verificable copy of Japan's
Constitution?  Someone pointed me to one on the web, which would seem
to make difficult implemmenting international GAK systems.

http://www.leftjustified.com/leftjust/lib/sc/ht/wtp/japan.html

Article 21. Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech,
press and all other forms of expression are guaranteed. No censorship
shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of any means of
communication be violated.

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From jon at lasser.org  Sun Nov  2 00:13:45 1997
From: jon at lasser.org (J. Lasser)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:13:45 +0800
Subject: new PGP key
Message-ID: <19971102025751.44393@rwd.goucher.edu>



Due to a hard drive crash near the beginning of last month and an inane
lack of backups, I lost my old PGP keys (2047/0xDED5B791 and
1024/0xEC001E4D). I've generated a new key, enclosed below. Key info is
as follows:

Type Bits KeyID      Created    Expires    Algorithm       Use
sec+ 2047 0x4CDD6451 1997-10-12 ---------- RSA             Sign & Encrypt 
f16    Fingerprint16 = D8 5A 85 06 93 6C 86 E8  79 3A 07 AA 15 6E 3A BD

I will personally verify this information at the physical DC Cypherpunk
meeting tomorrow (well, today, actually), as well as hand out copies of
the fingerprint. The key is also available at my web page, at either
http://students.goucher.edu/jlasser/interests/pgpkey.html or
http://gwyn.tux.org/~lasser/interests/pgpkey.html

Yes, I keep backups now ;-)

Type bits/keyID    Date       User ID
pub  2047/4CDD6451 1997/10/12 Jon Lasser <jon at lasser.org>

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2
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=xg8Z
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-- 
Jon Lasser (410)383-7962                             jon at lasser.org
http://wauug.erols.com/~lasser/             New PGP key coming soon
      "Flap your ears, Dumbo!  The feather was only a trick!"






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 00:13:50 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:13:50 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711020810.JAA29037@basement.replay.com>




##
In-reply-to: <199711020051.QAA23884 at sirius.infonex.com> (message from Mix on
	Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:51:19 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: cute.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty says
> What would be really nice is if the mailing list machines time stamped
> messages.

That would be nice.  I wonder, could one of our list hosts add a
script to sign outgoing majordomo traffic?

Here's a script to do it:

- --------------------8<--------------------
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
$pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
$tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";
undef($/);
$post = <STDIN>;
($headers, at body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n", at body);
open(PIPE,"|$pgp -satf +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID > $tmp");
print PIPE $body;
close(PIPE);
open(SIGNED,"<$tmp");$signed=<SIGNED>;close(SIGNED);
print "$headers\n\n$signed";
unlink($tmp);
- --------------------8<--------------------

It handles one mail only.  If you want to run it on a mail folder, use
formail.

> This would also prevent an attack where somebody forges mail from a
> cypherpunks list machine to flush out identities.  If the attacker
> sends a unique message to every person, he or she will be able to
> break an identity if the message is replied to on the list.

You could do something similar with independent parties posting hashes
of messages in the feed they got to the list, or to subscribers to the
service.

The list bot signing is more convenient to check though with existing
software.  Also, unfortunately, most MUA pgp software doesn't check
nested signatures, so a signature from the list would break ability to
auto check signatures from posters.

Here's another script to check the list added signature on receipt:

- --------------------8<--------------------
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
$pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
$tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";$in="/tmp/.in$$";$msg="/tmp/.msg$$";
undef($/);
$post = <STDIN>;
($headers, at body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n", at body);
open(BODY,">$in");print BODY $body;close(BODY);
$res = system("$pgp -f +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID < $in > $tmp 2> $msg");
open(SIGNED,"<$tmp");$signed=<SIGNED>;close(SIGNED);
open(ERR,"<$msg");$err=<ERR>;close(ERR);
if ($res==0) {
    ($who) = ($err =~ m/Good signature from user "(.*)"\./);
    if ($who !~ m/$userID/) { $res=1; }
}
$headers =~ s/\[FORGERY\]//g;
if ($res) {
    $headers =~ s/(Subject: )([^\n]*)/\1\[FORGERY\] \2/g;
}
print "$headers\n";
print "X-Signature: ", $res ? "forgery" : "ok $who", "\n";
print "\n\n$signed\n";
unlink($tmp,$in,$msg);
- --------------------8<--------------------

> I'm not sure a timestamp matters that much for "authenticating" your
> key.  After all, you don't own "Amad3us", you own key 0x4D162BBE1.

Yes.  Except for minor nit: 0x4D162BBE1 is susceptible to a 0xdeadbeef
attack, anyone can generate another key with that keyID.  Even the
fingerprint is spoofable.  But the combination is truly hard to spoof,
and this I do own: 0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1
(fingerprint/keyID).

Amad3us (0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQCVAwUBNFwjxvKMuKFNFivhAQGYnAQA33Ss68TKF+QfDGweQZ7TAkbmlOeqPC/J
iBoV5zA+skqdgs+PD2afLAhQn5otm7xbx7rBEnBgMOYff9GyKB6Bfs/po7juwqs5
dACGPZhc5kNf4f18V04jv5sr6PWLWdwsoVegshVsiHmQgWtG9UlnZ0wKe2ORKzxf
sQkJsIe3/jA=
=naXX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  2 00:24:45 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:24:45 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
Message-ID: <199711020817.CAA31716@multi26.netcomi.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:
>After seeing the intents of PGP Inc. with the release of their new
>PGP that breaks the old free versions, I have all but written them
>off as anything but the Enemy, and am waiting for a public reply on
>the list by Tim May to make it official.

Personally, I don't think it is that useful to draw up enemy lists.
It is clear PGP, Inc. cannot be relied upon to achieve our goals for
us.  I think a lot of people half expected something like this out of
them, anyway.  All that left wing politics and weird anti-business
stuff from the PGP crowd did not augur well.

>But now what? Please someone answer my questions about PGP - it
>appears that the 5.x versions are not compatible with the 2.x
>versions which came previous.  Is this so? Also, the direction they
>seem to be heading is in providing more and more non-free GAKked
>product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions freeware? If so, can't
>others - a group of individuals - take that source code and build off
>of that?

The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
odd.  We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit
that it will be completely unencumbered.

It also gives us the opportunity to write it in a language other than
C, one which truly supports encapsulation.  C code is hard to verify
with great confidence because it is possible to obfuscate it and
introduce security holes.  This means that C requires one to trust the
authors to a greater extent than is desirable.

It would also be neat if the code were written outside the United
States and were put into the public domain.  If a company snaps it up
and bases a product on it - great!  The more people using the code the
better.

The whole issue of compatibility is an interesting one.  Would it be a
good idea to have a cryptographic system which was completely
incompatible with PGP, given the Big Brother risk?

Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
completely economical.

It also introduces security risk.  Let's say one of the three public
keys used to encrypt a message has been compromised.  Let's say the
other two parties live in places where they aren't supposed to be
exposed to bad ideas.  Once one key is compromised, the other
recipients are compromised in receiving a forbidden message.

On the other hand, if they were separately encrypted, the link between
the three messages is not obvious.  And, even if the messages *are*
linked, it's still not obvious that the other recipients didn't get
something else.  It provides a lot of deniability.

So, perhaps a protocol which does not support anything more than one
encryption key per message would be a good idea.

Something else that bothers me about PGP is compression.  It strikes
me as bad design to build this into an encryption program.  Zimmermann
has suggested that this increases security.  I doubt this.  Modern
algorithms like IDEA (please correct me if I am wrong) have the
property that if you get one bit, you've got them all.

And, I wonder if compression doesn't actually weaken security?  Let's
say I forward a known message with some commentary.  Since the
compression tables will be known, it seems like the increased size of
the message could provide some interesting information about the
preceding commentary.  All by itself, this probably doesn't matter,
but combined with other information it might result in a breach.  In
any event, that which is ambiguous should be eliminated.

It would also be nice if the messages were padded to predetermined
sizes, say 10K, 20K, 40K, etc.  (Once compression is eliminated this
is less of an issue.)

Anyway, if Adam Back wanted to undertake it, a nice project would be
design a good cypherpunk communications protocol.  Simple, clean, and
secure.

It seems to me that issues like wiping the stack as every function
returns, the formats of key rings, and security measures on the users
computer should not be in a communications standard.

Some other features: maybe a hashcash field which makes it possible to
quickly weed out junk.  The challenge string could be related to the
key.  Also, it would be neat if the system were designed with
steganography in mind.

How about a one time pad mode?  One time pads are more practical than
widely believed.  Many things we talk about we *do* want to keep quiet
for the rest of our natural lives.  Our present tool set and practices
do not do this reliably.  (But, I could be persuaded that one time pad
mode is actually something which should tunnel inside the cypherpunks
communication protocol.  Might as well keep everything clean and
orthogonal.)

>Piss on these assholes and their licensing fees.

There's nothing wrong with paying people for their work!  It's even
desirable if you want tools to be available.

>It was inevitable, anyway. They are a corporation after all, and the
>corporations are not on "our" sides.
>
>I can see a scenario where government is impotent and destroyed
>within 10 years. What will remain and will be harder to eradicate are
>the corporations.  I don't think we should rely on corporate software
>whenever possible, because it always comes with an ulterior motive.

I am of two minds on this question.  Free software is pretty darned
neat.  It's extremely easy to deal with and it's nifty that you can
write and release something and tens of thousands of people end up
using it.  If the code is simply placed in the public domain, then
anybody can use it for any purpose they like.  This has appeal.

On the other hand, corporations can be a good way to get things done,
too.  It is possible that the PGP approach of giving away software was
ultimately a mistake because now people don't expect to have to pay for
their code.  Elimination of a crypto market might be a bad thing.

It's clear that going the corporate route has to be handled with some
care.  Given the political implications, investors have certain risks.

Also, many people seem to switch into a different mode as soon as they
have a company.  Anything which they perceive as increasing their
profits becomes good.  PGP, Inc. has gone this way, we've seen First
Virtual do some unsavory things, and even good old C2 has made a few
people uncomfortable.

It doesn't have to be this way, of course.  Look at Comsec Partners.
We don't see any "conversation recovery", lying press releases, or any
other nonsense from them, just a beautiful product.

The key probably has to do with understanding clearly what it is you
want to do.  If you know you want to promote privacy and free speech
and are willing to volunteer a substantial amount of your time to do
so, then foregoing some blood money or maintaining your integrity is a
lot easier to do.

What I like about selling software is that you could actually make
good living by doing the right thing.  And, after all, if you've spent
six months writing something, why shouldn't the users kick in a little
money instead of freeloading?  I would like to see more crypto users
in the habit of paying for tools and in the habit starting security
companies.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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jKUJn0DDFD2pdZ66Unp3xeKpOMxLZ4Bqf704piaCSmj4Erul7x1Gmg==
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  2 00:47:39 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:47:39 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <199711020837.CAA00759@multi26.netcomi.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

phelix at vallnet.com wrote:
>First, PGPsdk has been released:
>
>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/
>
>The bad news: the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
>freeware or shareware applications using it.

1. It's not bad news because it didn't cost us anything for somebody
else to write it.  We are doing just as well as last week.

2. If the licensing fees are really high, this should be a good
opportunity for competing software.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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cGyf/WZuvWtCmpHgLk5FKPUQS4zQXpeaJJG7LYJY6Cq2I9H+OYusTQ==
=gc92
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From adam at homeport.org  Sun Nov  2 01:01:42 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:01:42 +0800
Subject: What Will Revolution Look Like?
In-Reply-To: <199710312207.OAA27506@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199711020848.DAA14964@homeport.org>



	The distinction between civilians and soldiers, which came
about in the 17th and 18th centuries, is close to meaningless in the
context of a modern revolution.  However, this distinction, and the
Clausewitzian claim that war is the continuation of politics by other
means, underly the 'law of war.'

	War as the continuation of politics implies that the State
sends soldiers to war against other soldiers to fight for policy
rights.  War to gain teritory, war over insults or honor, religious
war, is seen as a thing of the past.  Barbaric.  Modern warriors can
not understand people who play by other rules.  To some extent, this
has been good for us civilians.  The firebombings of German cities
were an exception, not the rule.

	However, as the anti-colonial movement demonstrated, a people
can effectively fight a modern army, and win.  They are marked as
terrorists, defamed for their capitalist activites such as drug
smuggling to finance the struggle, and hanged when caught. 

	A modern revolution, as Mao taught, is based on forcing people
to decide if they are with you or against you.  There are no neutrals
who simply want the status quo to continue, because once the
revolutionaries have started to do their job, the state lashes out,
passing facist new laws (see Northern Ireland, Peru, the United
States).  The status quo disappears, and the revolutionaries are
committed.  It is only by making starkly clear who stands where that
enough people to fuel the revolution can have the manpower to sucseed.
The alternative to the revolution becomes living under the government
that killed your family members.  In Algeria, once the first few
thousands of martyrs died, every additional person the French killed
was a new reason to fight.  Surrender, to the Alerians, became
inconcievable.  Life as French was not worth living.  So they fought.

	When the revolution comes to the United States, it will not be
a pretty thing.  Our best hope is for a rapid surrender of the current
government, which is not likely.  By deploying now the tools of
communication (remailers, strong encryption, directions for building
bombs and traps, cheap radio transmitters), as well as the tools for
deception (how hard is it to build a fake GPS transmitter?), and the
understanding that the US governemnt has grown cancerous, we bring
closer the begenning and the end of the revolution.

	We bring its start closer by forcing the Government to show
its true colors, turning more people against it.  We bring its finish
closer by having ready the tools to render ineffective the large
fighting machines we have paid for, by making it clear tht the
government does not have the support of the people, and by making it
clear that once committed, we will have to fight.

	So, Tim, we disagree that it will be like nothing seen before.
It will be like many modern revolutions, because we can't force the
government to fight on our terms today.

	20 years later, we will look back, and realize that
governments have murdered most of the innocents they will ever kill,
because will can deploy technology to make government voluntary.  But
we're not there, and getting there may be bloody.

	There is, of course, Duncan's Berlin Wall theory, but I fear
things will have to get worse before they get better.

Adam


Tim May wrote:
| Some of the questions by Mark Rogaski and others ask about the nature of
| the revolution I and others are predicting and encouraging.
| 
| What will a just revolution, like those anticipated by Jefferson, Franklin,
| and others, look like?
| 
| The British thought the colonial rebels were "playing dirty" by shooting
| from behind trees instead of marching in bright uniforms with drums and
| bugles to herald their way.
| 
| Modern armies think freedom fighters are "terrorist scum" for not fighting
| honestly and fairly in their own M-1 Abrams tanks and aircraft carriers.
| 
| So, too, will revolutionaries be seen as fighting "unfairly" and being
| unethical sneaks, child killers, and terrorists.
| 
| (As if children and other innocents did not die in various incidents in
| past wars, on all sides.)
| 
| When Jefferson predicted that a revolution was needed every 20 years or so,
| he surely was not saying that throwing one party out of leadership and
| putting the other party in was an example of such a revolution, or that
| "campaign reform" is such an example. Nor was he saying that the only valid
| revolution would be when a buch of citizens or states got together their
| own army and marched on Washington.
| 
| (Actually, raising such an army is in violation of numerous laws about
| heavy weaons, licenses to carry weapons, etc. No doubt illegal. Ironically.)
| 
| No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from anything
| quite like we've seen to date.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From blancw at cnw.com  Sun Nov  2 01:29:55 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:29:55 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971102012712.006cd37c@cnw.com>



Tim May wrote:

>Where have you folks been the last couple of years? Given that the list has
>been discussing the Bernstein case (and 30 of us even attended some of
>Judge Patel's hearings in SF), and the Junger and Karn cases have been
>extensively reported, and the CDA was overturned, I'd certainly say court
>battles have been a priority for a long time.
.............................................


The Bernstein, Junger, and Karn cases are all about a single issue.   The
EFF focuses on the same computer/internet/privacy issues.   What I was
envisioning was the fundamental conflicts like a basic observance of
respect for human beings in their pursuit of the Three Virtues (the
opposite of the Four Horsement <g>) - Life, Liberty, Happiness, and for
legitimate consent - not the manufactured "voluntary" complicity to demands
like taxation and all the other crimes which have been discussed on the list.

>Certainly I don't know of any Cypherpunks pushing for legislative
>solutions. Most of us have explicitly condemned the legislative actions,
>realzing that Congress can only make things worse.

I wouldn't expect any new laws to be passed as a result of this kind of
court battle, nor expect Congress or even the Supremes to approve of and
support it.  The only purpose would be to challenge the whole lot of
government agencies who accept the above-mentioned flaws as unquestionable
government rights-of-way.   A revolutionary sort of action, in other words,
not for the purpose of getting legislation/legislators on "our side", but
to back them up against the wall and squish them.   (Operation Squish.
heh-heh.  Ya'll remember that?)

I don't know exactly how this could be brought about, but I would expect it
would have more the structure and sense of a 'noble cause' such as the
Originals brought to their revolution, than simply to gather into groups
like the 'Patriots' and the 'Freemen' and such, who are more incoherent
than admirable.  

The Originals also made their attempts at negotiating their case with
unsympathetic rulers, preceding their realization that they were getting
nowhere.  And it is more than likely that current court judges are just as
dull and dense and morally asleep at the wheel as King George.   But the
thing is to bring out these flaws explicitly, in the place designed for
such things, where they may be attended to in the civilized manner created
for such conflicts of MO.    The Case of the Individual against the State.

I can dream, can't I?   It would make a great TV series.   (You, of course,
would rather spit-polish your guns and buy more ammo.)
    ..
Blanc






From blancw at cnw.com  Sun Nov  2 01:31:26 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:31:26 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971102004545.006cba90@cnw.com>



Jim Choate wrote:

>But, why do we need a lawyer? We have the right to represent ourselves, why
>let somebody who has a intimate stake in the status quo represent us?

Well, first of all I was being facetious, because of how people are always
saying we need Leadership (tm) and need to elect another President in order
to have a more Perfect Union.   But I said we need a "good" lawyer - a
libertarian lawyer - because I expect that it would take someone who had
studied the legal system and made it their project to be well-educated and
articulate on these matters, to be able to successfully represent the
Consitutional values which we subscribe to.   Maybe not.  I myself don't
think I could do it, although I would lend all kinds of backend support to
whoever would, and frankly I don't think I would select you, either, Jim,
because I don't think your arguments would be effective.   I would be
thrilled if someone like Tocqueville existed.   He would get my vote.

>Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
>Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
>relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
>the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. 

I don't know.   But this is the sort of issue I was thinking of.

>Also, let's start something relating to the 2nd. We should also move to [.
. . ]

Okay, you first. heh.  You're being quite free with your recommendations.
Remember, right now we're just a bunch of people sitting around their
computers talking.  Don't count your chickens before they hatch. 






From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov  2 01:35:51 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:35:51 +0800
Subject: <SIGH>
In-Reply-To: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711020928.EAA28968@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711020324.EAA29916 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/02/97 
   at 04:24 AM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>After seeing the intents of PGP Inc. with the
>release of their new PGP that breaks the old
>free versions, I have all but written them off 
>as anything but the Enemy, and am waiting for
>a public reply on the list by Tim May to make
>it official.

>But now what? Please someone answer my questions
>about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
>compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
>Is this so? Also, the direction they seem to be
>heading is in providing more and more non-free
>GAKked product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions
>freeware? If so, can't others - a group of 
>individuals - take that source code and build off
>of that? Piss on these assholes and their licensing
>fees. It was inevitable, anyway. They are a 
>corporation after all, and the corporations are 
>not on "our" sides.

>I can see a scenario where government is impotent
>and destroyed within 10 years. What will remain
>and will be harder to eradicate are the corporations.
>I don't think we should rely on corporate software
>whenever possible, because it always comes with
>an ulterior motive. Is there an effort to maintain
>a version of PGP based on the free 2.x sources
>that is not affiliateed with the fuckwads at 
>PGP Inc.? If not, is it high time some of us 
>began such an effort?


<sigh> What a bunch of drivel. I give this post an 8th Grade rating.

>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 03:22:14 -0600

Does your mommy know you are up this late??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From jeremey at cypherpunks.to  Sun Nov  2 01:37:57 1997
From: jeremey at cypherpunks.to (Jeremey Barrett)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:37:57 +0800
Subject: ANNOUNCE: pgp5-pine 0.1
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971102095959.24276A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

This is to announce version 0.1 of pgp5-pine, a set of shell (sh) scripts
for integrating pgp 5.x for unix into the pine mail reader. The scripts
operate via pine's facility for filters, both incoming and outgoing.

You can encrypt, decrypt, sign, and verify messages with some ease. The
send filter will automagically retrieve keys from a keyserver if told
to do so, and leans toward paranoia when it cannot encrypt a message.

This is the first released version, there is always the possibility
of bugs and/or behaviors you don't agree with. Note that these scripts 
do _not_ handle PGP/MIME, as pine does not pass the MIME structure of 
messages to filters.

For more information, see https://www.cypherpunks.to/

Disclaimer: I am not responsible for the choice of colors on the 
            cypherpunks.to web site, or any damage to anything yours
            from using this code.

Please direct all bug reports, requests, or other inquiries to
jeremey at cypherpunks.to

Regards,
Jeremey.
- --
Jeremey Barrett
jeremey at cypherpunks.to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

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XWe+IJGVTEj9dAFECSGuD259
=CmDv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 02:32:47 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:32:47 +0800
Subject: Definition: Spin Doctoring
Message-ID: <199711021025.LAA10659@basement.replay.com>




Definition: Spin Doctoring � You are standing naked in the gas chamber
with a thousand of your fellow ethnic outlaws when the voice of Herr
Himmler blares out from  the speakers,  "I have decided to spare your
lives." The loud cheers of yourself and your grateful ethnological
comrades are cut short by the sound of a deadly gas being released from
the ceiling vents. A different voice comes over the speaker, saying,
"What Herr Himmler _meant_ to say, was�"

Sick humor? Moi�?







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 02:33:43 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:33:43 +0800
Subject: InfoWar Feedback Form #AB7-09-C3F87-%&((&%$%*
Message-ID: <199711021023.LAA10521@basement.replay.com>



I, the undersigned undertoad, herby express my evaluation of the
TruthMonger multi-user persona, based on my understanding of the 
contents of Epilogue 8 of 'InfoWar'.

TruthMonger should:
1. Run for President of the United States of America. [ ] ~ Y/N
2. Seek medical help immediately. [ ] ~ Y/N

PLP Signature: 

Thanking you for your input,
A Concerned Illegal Immigrant







From Cindy at mcglashan.com  Sun Nov  2 19:18:21 1997
From: Cindy at mcglashan.com (Cindy Cohn)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:18:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Change in Bernstein oral argument time
Message-ID: <199711030249.SAA17142@gw.quake.net>


The time for the oral argument in the Bernstein case has been moved by the
court from 1:00 p.m. to 9:00 a.m.

Hope to see you there,

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy at McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov  2 03:19:26 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:19:26 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199711021023.LAA10521@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <b0b2eff9519332f40e8399dd3086038d@anon.efga.org>



Anonymous  <nobody at REPLAY.COM> writes:

> I, the undersigned undertoad, herby express my evaluation of the
> TruthMonger multi-user persona, based on my understanding of the 
> contents of Epilogue 8 of 'InfoWar'.

> TruthMonger should:
> 1. Run for President of the United States of America. [ ] ~ Y/N

[Y]

It can't be any worse than the adminstration we've had the last 10
years.

> 2. Seek medical help immediately. [ ] ~ Y/N

> PLP Signature: 

> Thanking you for your input,
> A Concerned Illegal Immigrant








From da at dev.null  Sun Nov  2 03:29:14 1997
From: da at dev.null (Don't Ask...)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:29:14 +0800
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 8 / TEXT
Message-ID: <345C615F.228B@dev.null>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * TruthMonger#1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Infowar circa 1850
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   "Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

The Reverend Green had been playing to a full house daily as long as
the rain had been falling and the rain had been falling for two
weeks. When the kid ducked into the ratty canvas tent there was
standing room along the walls, a place or two, and such a heady reek
of the wet and bathless that they themselves would sally forth into
the downpour now and again for fresh air before the rain drove them
in again. He stood with others of his kind along the back wall. The
only thing that might have distinguished him in that crowd was that he
was not armed.

Neighbors, said the reverend, he couldnt stay out of these here
hell, hell, hellholes right here in Nacogdoches. I said to him, said:
You goin to take the son of God in there with ye? And he said: Oh
no. No I aint. And I said: Dont you know that he said I will foller
ye always even unto the end of the road?

Well, he said, I aint askin nobody to go nowheres. And I said:
Neighbor, you dont need to ask. He's a goin to be there with ye ever
step of the way whether ye ask it or ye dont. I said: Neighbor, you
caint get shed of him. Now. Are you going to drag him, *him*, into
that hellhole yonder?

You ever see such a place for rain?

The kid had been watching the reverend. He turned to the man who
spoke. He wore long moustaches after the fashion of teamsters and he
wore a widebrim hat with a low round crown. He was slightly walleyed
and he was watching the kid earnestly as if he'd know his opinion
about the rain.

I just got here, said the kid.

Well it beats all I ever seen.

The kid nodded. An enormous man dressed in an oilcloth slicker had
entered the tent and removed his hat. He was bald as a stone and he
had no trace of beard and he had no brows to his eyes nor lashes to
them. He was close on to seven feet in height and he stood smoking a
cigar even in this nomadic house of God and he seemed to have removed
his hat only to chase the rain from it for now he put it on again.

The reverend had stopped his sermon altogether. There was no sound
in the tent. All watched the man. He adjusted the hat and then
pushed his way forward as far as the crateboard pulpit where the
reverend stood and there he turned to address the reverend's
congregation. His face was serene and strangely childlike. His hands
were small. He held them out.

Ladies and gentlemen I feel it my duty to inform you that the man
holding this revival is an imposter. He holds no papers of divinity
from any institution recognized or improvised. He is altogether
devoid of the least qualifications to the office he has usurped and
has only committed to memory a few passages from the good book for the
purpose of lending to his fraudulent sermons some faint flavor of the
piety he despises. In truth, the gentleman standing here before you
posing as a minister of the Lord is not only totally illiterate but is
also wanted by the law in the states of Tennessee, Kentucky,
Mississippi, and Arkansas.

Oh God, cried the reverend. Lies, lies! He began reading
feverishly from his opened bible.

On a variety of charges the most recent of which involved a girl of
eleven years - I said eleven - who had come to him in trust and whom
he was surprised in the act of violating while actually clothed in the
livery of his God.

A moan swept through the crowd. A lady sank to her knees.

This is him, cried the reverend, sobbing. This is him. The devil.
Here he stands.

Let's hang the turd, called an ugly thug from the gallery to the
rear.

Not three weeks before this he was run out of Fort Smith Arkansas
for having congress with a goat. Yes lady, that is what I said.
Goat.

Why damn my eyes if I wont shoot the son of a bitch, said a man
rising at the far side of the tent, and drawing a pistol from his boot
he leveled it and fired.

The young teamster instantly produced a knife from his clothing and
unseamed the tent and stepped outside into the rain. The kid
followed. They ducked low and ran across the mud toward the hotel.
Already gunfire was general within the tent and a dozen exits had been
hacked through the canvas walls and people were pouring out, women
screaming, folk stumbling, folk trampled underfoot in the mud. The
kid and his friend reached the hotel gallery and wiped the water from
their eyes and turned to watch. As they did so the tent began to sway
and buckle and like a huge and wounded medusa it slowly settled to the
ground trailing tattered canvas walls and ratty guyropes over the
ground.

The baldheaded man was already at the bar when they entered. On the
polished wood before him were two hats and a double handful of coins.
He raised his glass but not to them. They stood up to the bar and
ordered whiskeys and the kid laid his money down but the barman pushed
it back with his thumb and nodded.

These here is on the judge, he said.

They drank. The teamster set his glass down and looked at the kid
or he seemed to, you couldnt be sure of his gaze. The kid looked down
the bar to where the judge stood. The bar was that tall not every man
could even get his elbows up on it but it came just to the judge's
waist and he stood with his hands placed flatwise on the wood, leaning
slightly, as if about to give another address. By now men were piling
through the doorway, bleeding, covered in mud, cursing. They gathered
about the judge. A posse was being drawn to pursue the preacher.

Judge, how did you come to have the goods on that no-account?

Goods? said the judge.

When was you in Fort Smith?

Fort Smith?

Where did you know him to know all that stuff on him?

You mean the Reverend Green?

Yessir. I reckon you was in Fort Smith fore ye come out here.

I was never in Fort Smith in my life. Doubt that he was.

They looked from one to the other.

Well where was it you run up on him?

I never laid eyes on the man before today. Never even heard of him.
He raised his glass and drank.

There was a strange silence in the room. The men looked like mud
effigies. Finally someone began to laugh. Then another. Soon they
were all laughing together. Someone bought the judge a drink.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                   You are
                                 What you do
                               When it counts
                                 - The Masao
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                TruthMonger#1

             "Identity Theft Is the Sincerest Form of Flattery."

I would be the last one to deny that those who have followed the Chronicles
of InfoWar and/or my posts to the CypherPunks mailing list would be
justified in concluding that I am a raving lunatic, suffering from some
bizarre form of psychotic delusion which has yet to be properly researched,
defined and categorized by medical science.

However, please allow me to say a few words in my own defense, in the hope
of giving you at least a modicum of insight into the method of my madness,
and vice-versa.

I have lived a life which many people would consider rather remarkable and,
in some aspects, rather unbelievable, as well. {In reality, 'unusual' is
probably a more fitting, though mundane, description.}
In order to impress upon you that I am not consciously or (too)
subconsciously attempting to pretentiously portray (or inwardly deem) myself
as some kind of eminent, all-wise, all-seeing guru or genius at the expense
of the individual uniqueness, talents and value of others, such as yourself,
let me state that I truly recognize, even in my moments of cynicism, egoism,
or a plethora of other human states of consciousness and being, that what I
regard as the absolute wonderment of my own life is no less remarkable than
that of each and every other being sharing this corporeal and metaphysical
existence with me.

If I were able to single handedly bring about world-peace upon the earth
tomorrow, heal all of the sick and lame, and make life a proverbial bowl of
cherries for all humankind, I would still regard myself as no more
remarkable than any man or woman who is capable of bringing new life into
this world.
Anyone who has ever been present at the birth of a child is likely to
understand that I am speaking of the folly of our pretensions and our
posturing, in the face of the genuine mystery of creation.

Having said this, let me proceed to attempt to elucidate the reasons for the
sincerity I strive for in writing, no matter how 'right' or 'wrong' I may be
in my beliefs, values and world-view.

I was very young as a child�

OK, seriously�

The expression "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" applies to each and
every one of us in our own way.

My life has been a process of going everywhere, doing everything, seeing and
experiencing an amazing variety of the reality-bytes that life has to offer.
Many whom I have come in contact with, who have 'settled down' to live a
life very similar to that of their family, friends and neighbors, find me to
be an interesting fascinating 'character.' What many of them do not fully
realize is that I find them to be equally fascinating.
Despite the wild, far-ranging roller coaster of life I have experienced, I
recognize that it is in no way more reality-encompassing than the life of
someone who has borne and raised a child, or children, or who have dedicated
their life to the pursuit of total understanding of minute area of the total
scheme of reality. I have sometimes been involved in conversations with
people who pour out their woes, their self-doubts, their regrets of 'roads
not taken,' etc., and I have said, in reply, "You have raised a wonderful
child. You, and everyone else who has done so deserve a Pulitzer Prize. No
one on the face of the earth, however renowned, has ever done anything which
is superior to what you have accomplished."

Everyone has things that they have the background and ability to do and
corresponding life lessons and experience that they have to share with their
fellow terrestrial travelers.
What I believe I have to share is the perceptive viewpoint of someone who
has garnered a reasonably objective outlook on the life and society around
them, as a result of having always stood slightly outside the boundaries of
whatever situational reality they were interacting with at any point in
time.
To illustrate, allow me to point out that I have been through "The End of
the World" � twice, in my lifetime to date.

The first time was as a baptized member of Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide
Church of God. (I am not only Washed In The Blood Of The Lamb, but I also
scrubbed behind my ears-mom would be proud of me.)
One of the reasons I still regard the members of the WWCOG very highly is
that during my stay in the church I suffered very little discrimination or
judgment as a result of being vastly different from almost all other members
of the church, in ways that would have resulted, as a member of most
organizations (religious or secular), in my being the target of coercive
attempts at 'changing me for the better', or [Your Example of Infringement
of One's Right To Self-Determination Here].

Hard to believe that hard-core Christians could be this liberal (Example #
6):
"We would rather that you didn't strip naked during church services, paint
yourself blue and stand on your head while chanting 'Allah is good�Allah is
great. Hopefully, further Bible study will lead you to understand that these
actions are not necessary for spiritual development. But, hey! We could be
wrong."

While you may be chuckling at my humorous representation of what I am
explaining, here, let me assure you that this tongue in cheek example is no
more outlandish than 'the real facts.'

When "The End of the World" � was announced, church members made
preparations for holing up on the specified date, having a fantastic 'last
meal' and preparing for a final night of fellowship during which most
'masks' would be dropped (being as how the last day before the end of all
physical existence doesn't lend itself to being pretentious in the hope of
receiving future benefit from misleading yourself and others).
{FYI: Yes, I was tempted to make the obvious "going out with a bang
<nod-nod, wink-wink>" suggestions, all in good humor, but this was one of
the few times in my life that I was able to resist my basic urge to be
infantile and immature.}

After the WWCOG members, including myself, awoke the next morning to find
that it still hurt when they pinched their arm, so this couldn't possibly be
Heaven �, the church went through a major shake-up, with many members
becoming disillusioned and leaving for browner pastures. Most of those who
remained in the church went through great mental and emotional turmoil in
the process of resolving the dichotomy of remaining a member of a 'True
Church' which had failed the ultimate test of 'infallibility'.
Not me�

This is part and parcel of what I am trying to explain as an example of what
I regard as an ability on my part to exercise a great deal of objectivity,
even during my active participation in entering into membership in a
particular or specific belief-system.

I never, at any time, believed that the proverbial "End of the World" was
imminent. Quite the opposite, in fact, yet I participated fully in the
event.
Why? When you are a member of a bowling team, you bowl ten frames because
that is what you are there to do, as a member of the team. That is how those
involved keep score and the agreed basis upon which they judge the results.

I made no attempt to burst anyone else's bubble while preparing for an event
which I was certain would not occur but, when asked by other church members,
I did not attempt to obfuscate my beliefs in this regard, instead speaking
honestly about my view that the person reading the road map of the future
was not aware of the concept of magnetic deflection affecting the perception
of True North.
On the other hand, neither did I negate the possibility that I might, at the
appointed time, be proven wrong, as I found myself swept up into Heaven �,
to be confronted by a Supreme Being who was wagging a finger at me, saying,
"You are going to find your eternal stay in Heaven considerably more
enjoyable if you drop the cynicism."

As a result of having the objectivity which comes from being what I
characterize as "an insider watching from the outside," I found that I could
observe or participate in the debates between the 'True Believers' and the
'Disillusioned' and manage to separate the wheat from the chaff, chiefly
because I didn't have a 'position to defend.'
i.e.-I hadn't given away my bowling ball (metaphorically speaking) to
charity, out of certitude that I would not be needing it the following day,
so I had no need to 'place blame' on anyone for my having to buy a new
bowling ball for the upcoming tournament.

Although I ceased actively participating in the WWCOG shortly after The End
of the World � , it was a result of having already learned and experienced
most of those things which I was there to apperceive.

In the wake of the World inconsiderately failing to End on schedule, the
titular heads of the Worldwide Church of God rechecked their figures and,
sure enough, realized that they had forgotten to 'carry the three' and that
it had been a mistake to use the recently legislated value of pi (3.0) in
their calculations.
I found this to be very disturbing.
I personally had absolutely no problem with the World failing to End as
predicted, nor with those who had mistakenly (as it turned out) made the
prediction. My beliefs and core values were neither strengthened nor
weakened by the details of the event-I am proud to say that I felt no need
to paint myself 'green' instead of 'blue' thereafter, in an attempt to
rebuild a non-existent ivory tower of religious/spiritual belief.

Had those involved not busied themselves with attempting to pretend that
they were still infallible, but bad at math, my sojourn in the Worldwide
Church of God would have undoubtedly lasted a little longer. As it was, I
felt that there were more precipitous routes to additional knowledge and
learning, since advancement of corporal and ethereal cognitive capabilities
had been put on hold in the church in the interests of regeneration of
structures which were not truly necessary to the objectives of religious
spirituality.

To tell the truth, I find it rather ironic that intelligent, spiritually
oriented individuals who recognize the foolishness of worshipping golden
calves often fail to recognize that the 'semi-worshipping' of 'wooden'
calves may be a step forward, but is equally foolish, nonetheless.

My participation in the second (non-annual) "End of the World" � was as a
member of the Institute of Applied Metaphysics.
The event/process was very similar in concept to the WWCOG "End of the
World" �, with only the circumstantial details being significantly
different.
i.e. - As a member of IAM, I stripped naked, painted my self purple, and
stood on my head during the meetings, conferences and classes.

Once again, those involved in "The End of the World" � awoke the next
morning to find that it still hurt when they pinched their arm (or when I
pinched their butt). Again, there was a certain amount of disillusionment in
the wake of continued corporeal existence, but less so than in the WWCOG,
since there was less of a structured, ritual schematization involved.
i.e. - more people wearing jeans, fewer people wearing suits and ties

I eventually moved on to a divergent path in my quest toward finding new and
better ways to investigate the underlying unity within the boundaries of
diversity, once again taking along the lessons and experiences I had
garnered during my hiatus from constant motion (as opposed to fleeing from
the abomination of human fallibility).

The wake of this second failure of the World to End according to schedule
was of lesser amplitude than the previous one I had participated in, rocking
the boat of established position/beliefs less than before. I attribute this
to the fact that the response of the titular heads of the Institute of
Applied Metaphysics was not to 'deny' that there had been no failure, only a
slight miscalculation (PolitiSpeak), but was, instead, to 'reveal' to the
participants that the world had, in fact, come to an end, exactly as
predicted.
The 'loophole' that validated this Nostradamian spin-doctoring was that the
precise wording of the original prediction was "the world AS WE KNOW IT will
come to an end."

{Petty and cynical way to have fun with 'voices pontificating in the
wilderness' when they are so foolish as to give a date and time to their
"End of the World" � prediction: Ask them if the time quoted is Eastern
Time, Pacific Time, or Greenwich Mean Time.
NostraCanadaIsis: "The 'End of the World' � will be at 9:00 p.m. (9:30 p.m.
in Newfoundland).

Definition: Spin Doctoring - You are standing naked in the gas chamber with
a thousand of your fellow ethnic outlaws when the voice of Herr Himmler
blares out from the speakers, "I have decided to spare your lives." The loud
cheers of yourself and your grateful ethnological comrades are cut short by
the sound of a deadly gas being released from the ceiling vents. A different
voice comes over the speaker, saying, "What Herr Himmler meant to say, was�"

Sick humor? Moi�?

The two examples above involve group participation events which are
synchronous with individual examples of 'what I do.'

Everyone has things which they 'do'.
What I am speaking of here is something which I believe most people
inherently understand, but which is difficult to put into words.
i.e. - I can only describe my understanding of the concept I am expressing,
in the hope that you can compare and interpret what I say in the light of
your own knowledge and experience, be it a translation of what I say into a
mathematical equation, an emotional feeling, a graphical representation, or
whatever�

What some people do is to live a life of optimism which drives cynical
people crazy, particularly in light of the fact that the history of events
in the optimist's life confirms that his or her world-view is valid.
What other people do is live a life of cynicism which drives optimists
crazy, in light of the fact that the cynic's observations and logic are
irrefutable, thus forcing the optimist to face the fact that life is not a
bowl of cherries for those whose destiny is not to reflect the benefits of
the power of positive thinking but, rather, the reality that life is a crap
shoot.

i.e. <squared> - Some people always find a parking space exactly where they
need one, and other people never find a parking space in the needed spot.

The "End of the World" � is something that I do.
'Participate in' might equally describe what I refer to as 'something I do',
if viewed from the perspective of the interplay between myself and others.

To explain, on a one-on-one level of individuality, what I am speaking of, I
should explain that, on occasion, people I know, vaguely know, or don't know
from Adam, will show up on my doorstep, and spend time with me.
A total stranger sometimes shows up on my doorstep and, without a word of
explanation, spends several days helping me install a new carpet, trim my
hedges, or whatever I happen to be involved in at the time. All without
saying a word before departing at some point, never to cross my path again
before making their exit from this mortal plane.
Or, they may show up and sit in my living room for an hour, a day, a week,
and tell me their life story. "I was very young, as a child�then, this
morning�" Once again, after they have done whatever it is they needed to do,
they depart.

The common link between the people who enter my life to perform variations
upon the above themes, before moving on, is that they die a short time
later.
What is the 'explanation of'/'reason for' the process I have just described?
I have some opinions and/or theories in this regard, but the bottom line is
that it does not matter in the least whether I am correct or incorrect in
this regard. The bottom line is that it is something that I do/'participate
in' and experience has taught me that if I try to interpret the 'true
meaning and purpose' of these events, thereby convincing myself that I have
some imagined 'cause of action' by which I can control/influence the
'outcome' of the event in a 'proper' manner, everything goes to hell and
takes longer than it would have if I had resisted the impulse to
control/interfere.

At this point, I would like to point out that many people might regard the
preceding as what Tim May refers to as 'magical thinking' and that they
would, in a certain sense, be right. Tim May has, in more than a few
missives, indicated his disapproval of those who engage in the 'airy-fairy'
process of 'magical thinking,' in contradiction to the known physical laws
of reality.

I have long regarded Tim May as the original Philosopher King of the
CypherPunks mailing list, and I give considerable weight to his missives,
knowing that they are, for the most part, composed in a process which
involves careful thought and analysis of the issues or technicalities of
whatever topic that his missive is addressing.
If my first reading of his post to the CypherPunks list seems to indicate
that he is simply 'on the rag' and 'blowing smoke,' then I read the post
again to see if I am correct in the assumption that he is having a 'bad hair
day,' or if I have my head up my butt and I am failing to understand what
Tim is attempting to communicate.

Tim May sometimes comes off, in the context of the
not-totally-encompassing-media of InterNet communication, as a bit of a
Redneck/Ugly-American/Materialistically-Grounded/Fuck-the-Hippie-Crystal-Worshipers
kind of guy.
i.e. - Nuke Magical Thinkers
However, I think he would be surprised, given my above claims, to find that
I agree with him, for the most part-listen closely-within the context of his
definition of 'magical thinking.'

However, 'magical thinking' is something that I do, and I believe that it is
valid from within the context of my definition of what the term truly
comprises.
i.e. - I care not in the least whether you (or I) claim that it is possible
to 'psychically will' the balance of a bank account to increase by $100.00.
My view is that this-or-that claim doesn't matter in the least. What matters
is whether the bank account does or does not increase.

What I am getting at is that, as a mathematician, the certitude of what you
recognize and accept is not dependent on my mathematical ability to
understand the concepts which you know and understand. My belief that 1 + 1
= 3 is not likely to cause you to come to the belief that your whole life is
a lie, and that you should kill yourself.
Why is this? Because mathematics is something that you do.

Likewise, metaphysics is something that I do.
What I implore you to understand is that I have no more personal, emotional
investment in a blue aura meaning 'this' as opposed to 'that', than you, as
a mathematician, have in 1 + 1 = 2, as opposed to 1 + 1 = 3.
Your concern as a mathematician is that the value you recognize is valid
within the boundaries of the logic system within which you are working. My
concern as a metaphysician is the same.

In effect, what I am saying is that people, be they friends, acquaintances
or total strangers, show up on my doorstep and do whatever it is they need
to do before departing and going off to reunite with the Spirit of the
Cosmic Muffin, or whatever.
You don't understand? Me neither�

Do you believe or disbelieve what I am telling you? Do you think it is a
'good' thing or a 'bad' thing, if true? Do you think it is the work of God,
or the work of the Devil?
Pick 'one from Column A and two from Column B', or vice-versa-it's fine by
me. Regardless of your or my belief/disbelief, attitude or opinion�it
happens.

If you feel the urge to show up on my doorstep and spend the next few
decades helping to prove or disprove what I perceive as reality, feel free
to do so, but I believe that there are probably much better ways to spend
your time.

I guess what I am haphazardly attempting to explain is my view of what
objectivity truly means, insofar as I understand the concept and strive to
arrive at an objective, truthful perception of existence, during my journey
through 'madness cleverly disguised as sanity' (or vice-versa).

Non-Taoists often perceive those who are journeying in a direction opposite
to, or tangent to, their own vector of impetus as being 'in opposition to'
themselves.
>From a Taoist perspective, however, no one is truly 'going the wrong way.'

In effect, it is as if we live in a world where traveling both North and
South are required for survival/enlightenment/whatever.
Those who are dimly aware that they are traveling North after having already
fulfilled the 'traveling South' part of the equation, are likely to
subconsciously recognize that those traveling in the opposite direction may
be doing so because have already fulfilled the 'traveling North' part of the
equation. Those who have not yet traversed the opposite side of the equation
are more likely to believe that those traveling in the opposite direction
are 'evil incarnate', actively seeking to subvert the will of the OneWay
True God who rules the 'Turn Left To Go Towards Righteousness' universe.

I believe that it might help to clarify the concept I am attempting to
express here if I ask you to think of examples from your own life, and from
the lives of others you have observed, which might serve to illustrate
people who unthinkingly shout "You are going the wrong way!" to total
strangers when, in fact, they have no idea where the person they are
shouting at is coming from, or going to.
A parallax example would be a mature person trying to impose the logic of
grownup reasoning on a teenager who is firmly ensconced in the hormonal grip
of a still-growing movement toward balancing reason and emotion.

The value that our experience and understanding can play in communicating
with others is directly related to the degree to which we have recognized,
faced and resolved those events and situations in our life that require us
to strike a balance between order and chaos, individuality and communion
with the 'other', stability and evolution-Yin and Yang.

Obtuse Parallax Non-Involvement Participation Theory: The fact that life is
a crap shoot in no way detracts from the validity of 'self-determination
through the exercise of free will' playing an essential part in determining
the final outcome of the unfolding of our predestination.

{Pretty profound, eh? I wonder if it actually means anything�}

But, seriously�I was very young as a child�

OK, I'll quit kidding around. (Honest!)

Despite the extremely multitudinous verbal effusions which I often use to
convey my understanding of life's realities and peculiarities, much of what
my preceding voluminous asseverations are aimed toward communicating can be
summed up in a two-line poem which was written by an eccentric schizoid
component of my overall persona which lurks omnipresently behind the scar
tissue on the periphery of my brain, as the result of a failed lobotomy
attempt by a well-meaning, but misguided, member of the Manson family.

                           "All My Lies Are True"

                            All my lies are true�
                      And everything I do, I really am.

In short (but time-and-volume expanded to give you the benefit of
enlightenment through overcoming the confusion of my verbal obtuseness),
there exists-in the heart of the time-space continuum that is conspiring
with extemporaneous metaphysical actuality to bring us all to a sorry
end-two separate and distinct enemies of the current direction and goals of
our lifelong aspirations.

The first enemy is whatever runs contrary to our beliefs, aims and purpose
in life, and which threatens our existence/being/survival because of our
failure to recognize its value in our life, due to the fact that it
encompasses arenas of life which we have not yet had occasion to confront
and/or experience.
The second enemy is the 'friendly enemy' which represents those arenas of
life which we have already traversed, and which constitute a hazard to the
evolution of our consciousness only by virtue of the fact that it is always
tempting to bathe in the glory of treading familiar ground, deluding
ourselves that our competence in rehashing already-learned lessons in life
is a sign of superiority to those poor souls we pass by as they stumble and
fall in their evolutionary journey through unfamiliar territory.

For those of you who have consumed less than a quart of Scotch in the last
half-hour, and are thus mystified as to what I am talking about, here, I
will point out that what I have just expressed might be considered to be the
equivalent of those who teach second-grade math indulging themselves in the
bizarre and obscene delusion that the godlike reverence which the six and
seven year old children impute to them as a result of their superior
understanding of the mysteries of multiplication is somehow reflective of
their innate superiority to the entirety of humanity around them.

Or, as a parallax example, a school yard bully who considers himself to be a
'tough guy', despite the fact that he is six-foot eight, two hundred and
forty five pounds, forty three years of age, and is still in the third
grade.
[No, asshole, this example is not based on my own life experience.]

As you may have already guessed, I have pretty much lost track of what the
hell it is I had originally intended to communicate in this duplicitous
soliloquy concerning the divine triad of incremental quaternion.
So perhaps it is best that I toss my Thesaurus in the trash and entrust to
my limited lexicon the responsibility of conveying an important, though
insipid, axiom of life which should serve as an shining beacon which has the
capacity to enlighten the waters beyond the rocky shores of my limited
attention span, and open the door to a complete understanding of how to
properly interpret and evaluate the Chronicles of InfoWar.

In other words-in plain English-articulating my unknown thoughts in a manner
which accurately expresses my lack of social skills and my disposition
toward not really giving a fat rat's ass if my efforts at elocution are
appreciated, or whether I am just pissing in the wind�
I am the living, breathing incarnation of the Jules Pfiefer elucidation of
the "Mad Dog in possession of the last false smile."

I AM the TruthMonger.

If you think that my irreverence, sick humor, and my propensity toward
expressing myself in a manner which will lead those reading my mad ramblings
to conclude that I am an uncouth, insane asshole is an indication that I am
not totally sincere in seeking to share the enlightenment that it has been
my blessing to experience during the course of my life, then Fuck You!

We are all born into a predestined domain wherein our role as a warrior is
to fight the battles which can be waged by none other than ourselves.
My predestined battle is to rail loud and long against the anal-retentive
scourge of counterfeit substantiality which we and our fellow
anthropological sycophants kneel in obeisance to, for lack of true belief in
the primacy of our sovereign franchise which not only deems us to be the
captain of our ship of life and master of our ultimate destiny, but which
also demands that we recognize our divinity and our obligation to throw off
the bondage of outside authority, accepting total responsibility for living
our life according to the dictates of our conscience and our innate soul
pattern.

"To he who does what within him lies, God will not deny his grace."
- Saint Thomas Aquinas

"We make our Gods, do battle with them, and they bless us."
- Herman Hesse

"All my lies are TruthMongering."
- The Last Canadian Outlaw
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From da at dev.null  Sun Nov  2 03:30:51 1997
From: da at dev.null (Don't Ask...)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:30:51 +0800
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 8 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <345C60CC.7A43@dev.null>

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 03:56:03 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:56:03 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0 international patches and hacks
Message-ID: <199711021150.MAA18314@basement.replay.com>



A new resource page is up on the cypherpunks.to web site, to host
various patches and hacks to the pgp 5.0i source. Currently a patch
which fixes the expiration date for the software and "Version" comment
in ASCII-armored messages is available.

For more, visit https://www.cypherpunks.to/

-- 
pgp5hacks at cypherpunks.to






From 37387166 at prodigy.com  Sun Nov  2 20:10:18 1997
From: 37387166 at prodigy.com (37387166 at prodigy.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:10:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bulk E-mail Done Your Way !!!
Message-ID: < >


If you wish to be removed from this list please respond to Remove

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov  2 04:47:15 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:47:15 +0800
Subject: RSA Blows Smoke
Message-ID: <199711021240.HAA30685@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Wierd News
RSA Blows Standards Smoke
James Glave james at wired.com"
6:16pm 31.Oct.97.PST
http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/8196.html


Today's announcement "http://www.rsa.com/smimelive/html/9710311.html" by
RSA Data Security stating that the company has formally applied to the
Internet Engineering Task Force to establish an email security standard is
a blatant lie rooted in greed, allege sources close to the process.

"RSA is lying, and I am really livid," said Paul Hoffman of the Internet
Mail Coalition. "RSA has not submitted anything."

The flap centers around the company's ongoing efforts to get its
proprietary S/MIME email encryption technology endorsed as a standard by
the task force. Such an endorsement would give the company credibility,
and potentially, an increased market share over rival Pretty Good Privacy.
PGP submitted a competing protocol for standards consideration last month.

The Internet standards process is lengthy and complicated at best. The
sticking point in RSA's efforts to date is that the task force will only
consider non-proprietary technologies for the standards track. But S/MIME
2, the protocol at the heart of the effort, includes core RSA technologies
that must be licensed.

To be considered for standardization, RSA must relinquish "change
control," or the ability to modify the technology, to the task force. And
the portion the task force is most interested in altering is the portion
that requires RSA technology. As a result, getting change control "has
been like pulling teeth," claims Jeff Schiller, the organization's
security director. 

"Their goal has always been get this into the IETF but don't really give
up control," said Schiller. "[They want to] make sure that when the
standard comes down, if an anyone wants to implement it then they have to
be a licensee."

Schiller says that until change control is secured, RSA has no hope of
coming near a formal application - as they had claimed to have already
done this morning. RSA, however, claims that it has granted change
control.

"They are trying to get more market share by claiming that the IETF is
endorsing their commercial product," alleged Schiller.

RSA, in fact, is only one of five groups that have worked on S/MIME 2,
which is about to be submitted by the Internet Mail Coalition to the IETF
as an informational request for comments. Now, in order to retain its hold
on the S/MIME technology, RSA is taking sole credit for submitting it to
the task force, some observers claim.

"It's totally disacknowledging the work of a lot of other people," said
Hoffman. A request for comments is one of the initial steps in the
certification process, and Hoffman says that the Internet Mail Coalition
has yet to put S/MIME 2 forward.

Further, Schiller says, "When we do, it is not trying to get it as an
Internet standard. It won't go - and therefore we are not going to try."

Hoffman reiterated that S/MIME 2 won't be an Internet standard because it
relies on proprietary security technology and weak encryption. The
Internet Mail Coalition is about to begin work on S/MIME 3, which will use
stronger encryption and true open standards.

Tim Matthews, product manager for RSA, acknowledged that the announcement
may be open to misinterpretation. "It's basically a summation of all the
work we've been doing over the past month," he said.

Instead of helping its own cause, and gaining public mindshare, RSA's
announcement may end up flying back in its face.

"If it fragments the S/MIME camp it could help PGP a bit," said Charles
Breed, director of technology for competitor PGP.

"I hope [the announcement] hasn't sunk their chances because there are
still a lot of people who want to do S/MIME," said Hoffman. "RSA's
greediness could sink this, but I really hope it doesn't."

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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iQCVAwUBNFx0To9Co1n+aLhhAQHzQwQAwfbrjUYnFP2Q72Zbld6zDOeprNWV/9Lc
fzGy7wiS0Jewx9dgMxMw1jHonlqLak469XzJzJVbSnGpvfpau1QJjWus1sKDbUeL
YC87k71t7vTcnWumqnsndlItwbn8AVw5TRLqRxsF+cz4PaspIAx4hIY8V9jDBIk6
EY9J1FSeFkg=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Nov  2 05:03:15 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:03:15 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711020817.CAA31716@multi26.netcomi.com>
Message-ID: <199711021247.MAA07989@server.test.net>




Monty Cantsin writes:
> nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:
> >But now what? Please someone answer my questions about PGP - it
> >appears that the 5.x versions are not compatible with the 2.x
> >versions which came previous.  Is this so? Also, the direction they
> >seem to be heading is in providing more and more non-free GAKked
> >product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions freeware? If so, can't
> >others - a group of individuals - take that source code and build off
> >of that?
> 
> The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
> odd.  

I had a go at doing something with it (I'll let you know when I get it
to work) -- I had the damnest job figuring out what was going on.  The
problem I found with understanding it were all of the nested functions
called through vectors of functions and handler functions.  Makes it
hard to inspect what will happen without running the code under a
debugger -- lots control flow is decided at run time.

> We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit that
> it will be completely unencumbered.

Sounds maybe worth doing.

> It also gives us the opportunity to write it in a language other than
> C, one which truly supports encapsulation.  C code is hard to verify
> with great confidence because it is possible to obfuscate it and
> introduce security holes.  This means that C requires one to trust the
> authors to a greater extent than is desirable.

Some C programmers do have fun writing obfuscated chicken scratchings,
but you _can_ write C code optimised for readability.

What language did you have in mind?  modula-3?  iso-pascal/borland
pascal?

> The whole issue of compatibility is an interesting one.  Would it be a
> good idea to have a cryptographic system which was completely
> incompatible with PGP, given the Big Brother risk?

Theoretically perhaps, however I'm not sure a system will get very far
unless it can automatically interoperate with pgp2.x and 5.x.  You
could build something which did the right thing automatically based on
public key types:

hypothetical cpunks mail system (HCMS)

HCMS -> pgp2.x   use RSA/MD5/IDEA and pgp2.x message formats
HCMS -> pgp5.x   use DSA/EG/3DES/SHA1 and pgp5.x message formats
HCMS -> HCMS     use whatever goodies you want, stego, mixmaster, etc.

decision of compatibility mode to use would be based on public key
type you're sending to.

> Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
> to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
> conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
> cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
> completely economical.

This is more secure I agree.  The real kicker with this problem is
people who turn on encrypt to self -- I don't want messages with
encrypt to self (an extra door into the message) on them in my
mailbox, nor coming over the wire headed to me.

You can see the reason for multiple recipient though -- it's too ease
integration into mailers -- you can process the message and give it
back to the mailer, and then it can still send the message To: x, y;
Cc: z.

Doing away with multiple crypto recipient risk is more an issue of MUA
integration than rabid conservation of bits.

(Btw., if you've looked at pgp formats you will observe a tendency to
hand huffman encode everything -- yuck, makes decoding and encoding
fiddly, makes code bloat, is extra complexity which makes
implementation mistakes more likely).

> It also introduces security risk.  Let's say one of the three public
> keys used to encrypt a message has been compromised.  Let's say the
> other two parties live in places where they aren't supposed to be
> exposed to bad ideas.  Once one key is compromised, the other
> recipients are compromised in receiving a forbidden message.
> 
> On the other hand, if they were separately encrypted, the link between
> the three messages is not obvious.  And, even if the messages *are*
> linked, it's still not obvious that the other recipients didn't get
> something else.  It provides a lot of deniability.

Yes.  I was thinking this also.  Really paranoid cypherpunk mail
delivery should be via mixmaster, and should be forward secret.

> So, perhaps a protocol which does not support anything more than one
> encryption key per message would be a good idea.

You don't have to use it.  I tend not to.  I never use encrypt to
self, and I get annoyed with people who send me messages encrypt to
themselves, and very rarely do I use Cc on encrypted messages.

> Something else that bothers me about PGP is compression.  It strikes
> me as bad design to build this into an encryption program.  Zimmermann
> has suggested that this increases security.  I doubt this.  Modern
> algorithms like IDEA (please correct me if I am wrong) have the
> property that if you get one bit, you've got them all.

Well unless there's something wrong with IDEA it's fairly moot anyway.
Brute force of 128 bit key space is out of the question.

If IDEA did turn out to be weaker than thought -- say effective key
space turned out to be 64 bits -- then there would be some small value
to obscuring known plaintext.  But this doesn't argue for or against
compression -- firstly compression has I think a fixed known header
anyway, and secondly -- the weird IDEA CFB method includes a 16 bit
checksum anyway, which will mean that you have an instantly verifiable
way of reducing the need for more complicated checks to be only once
every 65536 keys tested.  Then you have the CTB on the contained data
-- a prefix ascii(1)||ascii(1) -- that's another 16 bits of known
plaintext.  And so it goes on :-)

> And, I wonder if compression doesn't actually weaken security?  Let's
> say I forward a known message with some commentary.  Since the
> compression tables will be known, it seems like the increased size of
> the message could provide some interesting information about the
> preceding commentary.  All by itself, this probably doesn't matter,
> but combined with other information it might result in a breach.  In
> any event, that which is ambiguous should be eliminated.

I don't understand this comment.

One thing that some people don't realise is that the plaintext gets
mixed into the random pool as an additional source of entropy.  In
automated environments (lots of MUAs which set +batchmode), this is
all the entropy you'll get -- except for the original key presses to
generate the key, and a small bit of entropy from the system clock.

It's fairly good normally because the way entropy is mixed in is a one
way function of the randseed.bin based on IDEA.  To make use of this
an attacker would need a copy of your randseed.bin before you sent the
target message, and to have suspicions of what the message is.  Even
after a few known messages it would still likely be possible to
attack, because the entropy added by the clock is partly predictable
from the message headers Date: field, and because it isn't that much
entropy each time.

> It would also be nice if the messages were padded to predetermined
> sizes, say 10K, 20K, 40K, etc.  (Once compression is eliminated this
> is less of an issue.)

It would be nice to have a system where you send 100k and receive 100k
per day regardless.  Say in 10 10k packets which get poured into a
mixmaster node.

> How about a one time pad mode?  One time pads are more practical than
> widely believed.  Many things we talk about we *do* want to keep quiet
> for the rest of our natural lives.  

Right.

The problem with this is that you need random numbers.  How do you
generate them?  If you use PGP's random pool, one suspects that if
IDEA becomes attackable at some point in the future the random pool
will start to look more like a predictable PRNG to the attacker.

I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
more suspect.

> It's clear that going the corporate route has to be handled with some
> care.  Given the political implications, investors have certain risks.
> 
> Also, many people seem to switch into a different mode as soon as they
> have a company.  Anything which they perceive as increasing their
> profits becomes good.  PGP, Inc. has gone this way, we've seen First
> Virtual do some unsavory things, 

What did FV do?  I know they don't use encryption, and Nathaniel
Borenstein wrote a few hype-hype articles about the _gasp_ newly
discovered security danger of "key board sniffers".

> and even good old C2 has made a few people uncomfortable.

Only thing slightly negative C2 did was to make a dubious decision in
handling of Mr Nemesis's fabricated claims about stronghold flaws.
C2 still rocks, though right?

> It doesn't have to be this way, of course.  Look at Comsec Partners.
> We don't see any "conversation recovery", lying press releases, or any
> other nonsense from them, just a beautiful product.

Quite so.  C2 hasn't got "web traffic recovery" either :-)

> What I like about selling software is that you could actually make
> good living by doing the right thing.  And, after all, if you've spent
> six months writing something, why shouldn't the users kick in a little
> money instead of freeloading?  I would like to see more crypto users
> in the habit of paying for tools and in the habit starting security
> companies.

New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.

If we get a real eternity service going (not the poor imitation perl
script up now where all traffic goes through a server unless you
install it locally) software copyright could become a thing of the
past :-)

Trust might be one way to go, rely on good will.  Or paying for
technical support.  Or mixmaster, or DC net packet delivery postage
charges.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Nov  2 05:15:30 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:15:30 +0800
Subject: What Will Revolution Look Like?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971102131057.00a611e0@pop.pipeline.com>



Warmaking is ever changing in response to the last wins
and losses. However, winners are less likely to change 
than losers, for why change a successful formula,
publish it, or a well-spun dissimulation.

As ever, unknown forms of war are in gestation, being
tested and debriefed, in military institutions and
wargames, in business, in education, in the amorphous
culture at large through legal competition and crime
and their variable gray areas where fair and unfair,
civilized rules and their breaking, are ever in grim 
and vicious dispute.

While there are piles of studies on organized and
guerilla wars of the past, the most provocative are
those that attempt to describe what's coming, how
to recognize its early warnings and what can be done
to head it off or, more likely, advance it.

The highest warmaking art is winning without physical
fighting, to outfox the enemy by demoralizing, by 
demonstrating that attack is futle, that there is no 
chance of defeating a superior force. That's why 
military exhibitionism and psy war is reputed
among military and political leaders to be as vital as 
that of brute force, as best exemplified by the Cold 
War 50-year stalemate and psychological "win-win" to
a status of Cool War.

To get a handle on what's in store, imagine that completely 
unbelievable methods of warfare, overt and covert, are 
being concocted now, composed of strategies, tactics, 
warfighters and armaments never before used -- and will 
not be revealed and understood until too late for defense. 

Try to forget everything you know about warfighting, 
crime fighting, conflict resolution, rules of engagement,
black operations, guerilla tactics, hiding among the 
people. Assume the enemy knows everything you know and
more, is better armed and smarter than you, has more 
spies among your supporters and in your most intimate 
circle.

Imagine that your toilet, your bed, your fridge, your car, 
your is triggered to explode by radio or your computer by
your password.

Consider that there will be no time to reflect and 
reconsider when things go catastrophically wrong and the
enemy is unrelenting attacking with inhuman viciousness, 
when you're defenses are crumbling and weapons failing,
when mates are squealing, dead or run away, when you can't 
stop shitting yourself, when your legs are buckling, when 
your minds racing out of control, when you're begging god
and mom for mercy and the upraised axe is descending, the
barrel back of head is firing.

Remember that who the enemy is is no secret to either side, 
on whichever side you're on, and presume that the emeny is 
more ready and able to cook your goose than you are theirs.

What actual war carnage teaches, what the current civil war 
in the US is showing, is what the TV-sofa war does not: 
nobody wins, ever, except the mindfuckers who've never gone
berzerk in combat or in the jobplace, killed friend and foe 
to save own asses.

You only win wars by never having to fight them, those 
started by weakling cowards unable to steal, cheat and lie 
well enough to satisfy their demonic lusts.

Best to outsmart the enemy in war, work and love, so that 
what you're up to is revealed only years later if ever. For
the best won wars are never known at the time, no parades,
no medals, no glory, no war stories, no memorial cemeteries
and monuments, no veteran hospitals filled with carrion, 
just peace and tranquility shooting deer, harpooning dolpins,
rip-tearing the landscape for profligate cowboy wargames
riding homicidal freeways.

We're all gonna lose our civil war in market place killings and 
road rage, thanks to today's warfighting lesson in free fire 
criminal enterprise by those who've never been shot and
shot and shot, and lost for good -- the vainglorious winners,
the losers desperate to regain glory days.







From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sun Nov  2 05:23:30 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:23:30 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <199711021310.FAA06433@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>Since when is broadcasting a radio or television show or writing an
>essay evidence of complicity in a murder, even when it "pushes
>someone over the line"?

The producers of the show had better hope that it is not evidence of
complicity in a murder.

Let's say Tim is crazy.(*)  He told us how much he enjoyed seeing the
BATF agent take one in the face.  If this were to inspire him to try
the same thing in real life, how would the producers of the show be
less guilty than the talk show host?

After all, the most intense and graphic aspect of the episode was the
scene where the BATF agent was killed.  The people who made the show
obviously intended this to have the most impact.  It must be the
actual point of the show.  (It's well known that television watchers
are far more responsive to imagery than boring dialogue.)

The rest was obviously a cynical attempt to undermine the machinery of
justice by appearing to be on the side of law enforcement.  Bad People
try this trick all the time.  Fortunately, the jury usually isn't
fooled.

I'm looking forward to the miscreants getting the justice they so
richly deserve, aren't you?

(*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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sgOIJq42ynz9q7eguqsE1I591hhNdhKE1mitPMirvm5Rh2Rwic1veiJMEc3uaHP+
SEiit3LcmqoV9xZ57oxuMRhHr63KQ24HaKDZkSnIIxC6c+8RiJ0pDy94hL15e/GQ
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WlA8Zxt5NNba4sQCe17m0Drxf9e99fX+inIVYKONK3kH2oCF564Hag==
=49tL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov  2 05:54:03 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:54:03 +0800
Subject: Japan's Constitution and GAK (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711021352.HAA04705@einstein.ssz.com>




Forwarded message:

> From: Adam Shostack <adam at homeport.org>
> Subject: Japan's Constitution and GAK
> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:16:36 -0500 (EST)

> Does someone have access to a verificable copy of Japan's
> Constitution?  Someone pointed me to one on the web, which would seem
> to make difficult implemmenting international GAK systems.
> 
> http://www.leftjustified.com/leftjust/lib/sc/ht/wtp/japan.html
> 
> Article 21. Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech,
> press and all other forms of expression are guaranteed. No censorship
> shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of any means of
> communication be violated.

It also outlaws secret or under-cover police such as the Kempetei (or
however you spell it, too lazy to look it up).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Nov  2 06:08:51 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:08:51 +0800
Subject: RSA Blows Smoke
In-Reply-To: <199711021240.HAA30685@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711021353.NAA09099@server.test.net>




William Geiger <whgiii at invweb.net> forwards article:
> The Internet standards process is lengthy and complicated at
> best. The sticking point in RSA's efforts to date is that the task
> force will only consider non-proprietary technologies for the
> standards track. But S/MIME 2, the protocol at the heart of the
> effort, includes core RSA technologies that must be licensed.

No hope then, cool :-)

> RSA, in fact, is only one of five groups that have worked on S/MIME 2,
> which is about to be submitted by the Internet Mail Coalition to the IETF
> as an informational request for comments. Now, in order to retain its hold
> on the S/MIME technology, RSA is taking sole credit for submitting it to
> the task force, some observers claim.

Who worked on S/MIME 2?  How comes it's the same "Internet Mail
Coalition" that is "submitting S/MIME 2 to the IETF" as the one which
Paul Hoffman is slagging off RSA and S/MIME 2?

What version of S/MIME does netscape support?

> Hoffman reiterated that S/MIME 2 won't be an Internet standard
> because it relies on proprietary security technology and weak
> encryption. The Internet Mail Coalition is about to begin work on
> S/MIME 3, which will use stronger encryption and true open
> standards.

What's the point?  Why have two competing standards OpenPGP and S/MIME
3 -- does RSA hope that they will get some value from it?

Does S/MIME 3 have key escrow or CMR snooping support?

> "I hope [the announcement] hasn't sunk their chances because there
> are still a lot of people who want to do S/MIME," said
> Hoffman. "RSA's greediness could sink this, but I really hope it
> doesn't."

Before I heard about CMR additions to pgp5.x I would have said I do
sincerely hope RSA's greed sinks this.  (40 bit RC2/40 feh!)

I think I still do hope RSA's greed sinks S/MIME on average, but I
would be much more certain if this pgp5.x CMR thing could be resolved
satisfactorily.

Unfortunately PGP Inc have closed off dialogue on the topic --
apparent blanket ban on employee discussion of CMR.

So will the OpenPGP draft which Jon Callas dubbed "non political"
include CMR?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov  2 06:20:32 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:20:32 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711021418.IAA04816@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: 2 Nov 1997 05:47:36 -0000
> From: Secret Squirrel <nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de>
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)

> Adam Back wrote:
> >[Ed Note: Jim Choate wrote:]
> >> At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders
> >> associated with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular
> >> entertainment media and spin-doctor culture would have you
> >> believe. Get your fucking facts straight.
> >
> >I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was
> >low.  The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling
> >their neighbours what they could think.
> 
> It's not hard to believe that this was the case in some places and in
> some times, but a term like the "Wild West" covers a lot of time and
> territory.

It was the case in all places. The Wild West simply wasn't that wild.

> For example, in San Francisco in the early 1860s there was a very high
> murder rate, something like 1000 people were killed in one year and
> nobody was convicted.  (Forgive minor factual errors as I haven't
> studied this in awhile.)

Damn, I have this book - but not here, at my shop apparently - that was
written by a eastern newspaper report who was in California, to write the
book, and he described San Francisco in the 1800's during the first gold
rushes. He doesn't note significant violence. What really makes the book
interesting is that the reporter took the 'long way' to California - across
Panama via coastal steamers and such. Very interesting descriptions. I'll
make note and get the book next time I'm out there and post to the list for
review.

Would you happen to remember your source? Nothing I have read has ever
mentioned a 1000/year homicide count in San Francisco - ever.

>  I have also read reports of substantial
> violence in the mining communities of Nevada and California with
> minimal enforcement action taken.

That's interesting since this is a specific and commen example of free
market anarchy supporters, the low violence rates in the Cali. gold fields
during the rush. In particular J.D. Davidson & Lord W. Rees-Mogg go to great
lengths at a couple of places in their book "The Sovereign Individual" to
hold it us as a 'model anarchy'.

Me thinks something is going on here below the covers when both sides of the
discussion use the same example (which is why I intentionaly don't use it
but wait for others to bring it up).

> It seems likely to me that the low
> murder rate claim has some exceptions, even if we ignore the mutual
> atrocities between various native groups, Americans, and Mexicans.

If you read "My Life as a Indian" this might change your view of how it was
in that period. "The Texas Rangers" also has quite a lot to say about what
the Indian wars were like in Texas (not really since there really wasn't
much). It is interesting to note that when the cattle drives started in the
1800's the people oppossed didn't pick up a gun and fight as a rule, they
hired lawyers and sued the cattle owners for damages to their farms and
ranches. This one was one of the primary forces behind the closing of the
fronteir - putting up barbed wire - the cattle barons kept losing the cases.

> I would also like to see how pervasive the temperance movement was in
> the Wild West.  By the late nineteenth century my impression is that
> it was going strong in the Wild West although it possibly hadn't
> grasped the levers of power yet.

Let us know how your research goes.

> >> Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run
> >> around having gun fights all the time.
> >
> >Right!
> 
> I'm pretty sure there were gunfights, but that they happened a lot
> more quickly and a lot less formally than we see on TV.  But, I could
> believe that overall they happened infrequently.  Anybody have a
> reference?

See above books as well as the Time*Life series I mentioned in a previous
submission. I would wager that from 1800 to 1900 there were less than a
dozen face-to-face shoot-outs at high-noon, if any at all. There is also a
very good book that covers the French and Spanish explorations of the
southwest starting in the late 1500's up to the early 1800's when they were
either forced out by political agreements or force. I believe the University
of New Mexico puts it out. If I stumble across it (I'll keep an eye out for
it) I'll get identifiying info. Very good book, but a mother to read.

> I am told that knife fighting was a lot more common than is widely
> known.  A lot of poor runaways showed up to work in various mining
> towns and they were unable to afford expensive toys like guns.

Generaly people shot each other with rifles from a distance or back-shots.
But the fact is that most, stats put it as high as 60%, of all homicides
(accidental or intentional) were people shooting themselves with their own
weapon by accident. These sorts of incidents were clearly much higher than
Indians or homicide.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From brianbr at together.net  Sun Nov  2 07:58:12 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:58:12 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
Message-ID: <199711021554.KAA07184@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/29/97 8:08 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo 
>(7.62x29, as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles 
>chambering this popular round).
> ---
>Before you rush to correct me, I _meant_ to write "7.62x39" of
>course.
>
>(A round used by the Chinese, Soviet, and East Bloc nations, and 
>roughly equivalent to the American M-16 round, known either as the 
>.223 or 5.56mm. The NATO "7.62" is in a longer case length. 
>7.62x54, as I recall. Known in America as .308.

 If I remember right they were able to do this because the only ammo
available for 7.62x39  is from the Chinese and uses steel core
projectiles not lead. Then when Olympic Arms came out with the cutdown
weapon chambered for 7.62x39 it was able to be banned uder a
regualtion banning "armor piercing ammo that could be used in a
handgun."

   One thing though,  7.62x39 really could not be compared to the 5.56
NATO, its really more potent out to 2-300 meters; it is still a .30
cal vs 5.56 NATOs .223,  but its far less potent than 7.62 NATO
(7.62x54). The 7.62x39 was the standard caliber of ComBloc weapons for
several decades, most specifically the AK-47, AKM-44 (sniper weapon),
and SKS carbine. I think the Dragunov sniper system used a more potent
cartridge.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFyiGMdZgC62U/gIEQJ62gCfbBu3uY42gRThKwxyi1I/uDm6pAwAoMkl
GuTW74QapGZbXo/kGN4KokYM
=qkl4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Bacon and eggs: A days work for a chicken; a lifetime commitment for a 
pig"







From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Sun Nov  2 08:11:26 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:11:26 +0800
Subject: auto signing messages Re: perl from Amad3us
Message-ID: <199711021541.PAA02992@notatla.demon.co.uk>





>  #!/usr/local/bin/perl
>  $userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
>  $pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
>  $tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";
>  undef($/);
>  $post = <STDIN>;
>  ($headers, at body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n", at body);
>  open(PIPE,"|$pgp -satf +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID > $tmp");


Real paranoiacs don't put temporary files in world-writeable directories.

If a hostile user symlinks your majordomo binary (or something)
to /tmp/.sig999 you're going to overwrite it with garbage.

A single purpose directory /tmp/mdsig writeable only by the
list account 'majordom' would be my preference.  (Correct owner
and mode for this directory and parents could be checked by the perl
script before it decides to write there.)


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Nov  2 08:24:50 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:24:50 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711021618.QAA00188@server.test.net>



Now, on the receiving end of Jim's argument style I come to understand
how those 100 article long flame wars that I never bother reading that
he gets involved with come about :-) Anyway, heedless to the folly,
I'll dive right in, it is quite interesting  :-)

Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:
> Forwarded message:

You complained earlier about misquotation, your quotation style is
unusual, it looks like you're pressing the `forward' button rather
than `reply'.

> Pure market anarchy? What the hell is a pure market? 

A free market.  (That should have said pure _free_ market).

Crypto anarchy is free market principles left to run with no
government.  Some people claim that this would actually work pretty
well.  The theory being that it gives you, the individual, maximal
choice.  Not only can you choose whether to purchase a "boob-tube", or
to instead spend the money on other things, but you can choose
protection services, laws, social insurance services, etc.

A problem with democracy is that some decisions are taken centrally
which reduces individual choice.

> Explain how it, without an explicit bill of rights, will protect my
> rights?

A bill of rights is nice, if anybody takes any notice of it.  If
nobody takes any notice it's just a piece of paper.

Crypto anarchy tends to protect your rights because typically your
rights are worth more to you than they are for others to take from
you.  Eg. your neigbours might not want to risk your wrath in invading
your house to see if you smoke something which they don't smoke.  Ie
it hardly matters one way or another to you what your neigbours do
inside their house.  But to you it matters a lot what you're free to
do.  So you can buy a .44 hand gun fairly cheaply.  Now if your
neigbour gets nosy, you can make clear that if he tries invading your
house you will be likely to aerate his skull.  Even if he is better
armed, or whatever, his small gained value in perverse amusement and
satisfaction in annoying you probably isn't worth the risk to him that
you may succeed in blowing him away.

> Explain how we don't end up with a Microsoft that owns everything
> which effectively reduces to a commercial communism?

Difficult to predict of course.  However large corporations are
typically subsidized by democratic governments.  This is a fairly
natural outcome if you think about it, because democracy is in most
current day examples quite biased to best represent the wishes of
those in positions to make large campaign contributions.  Hence the
term `corporate welfare'.

Microsoft's current $1M/day fine is one counter example.

> Where are my 'exit' choices then?

Do you have to buy microsoft software?  I sure don't buy any.  The
microsoft software that I have used (on equipment bought by employers)
is very poor quality, I'd recommend other vendors on quality for the
most part.

> What in the world would motivate such an entity to provide me with
> the resources to be a direct competitor, something clearly not in
> its best interest for long-term survival?

What do you figure they're going to do?  Nuke their competitors?

Someone will try to break the monopoly if it is charging to high
prices.  IBM could easily compete with Bill Gates -- however I hear
they don't bother upgrading OS/2 (an infinitely superior product) to
win95/winNT compatibility because they fear government monopoly
actions against themselves.

> How will others learn the technology and its applications outside
> the purvue of these economic regulatory entities. The unlimited expansion of
> the rail-roads in the 1800's is a excellent simili for comparison for both
> what such a system would be like as well as the major problems it *doesn't*
> address. Taminy Hall ring any bells? There was a free market political
> system if there ever was one; pay me and I'll do it for you, don't and you 
> can freeze in hell.

No pay, no goods.  Sounds good to me!

(I'm not sure what the stated problem was -- too many rail roads?
Surely that's self regulating: too many becomes too competitive, too
low profit margin, the less efficient ones go bankrupt.)

> A more modern example is the history of the telecommunications
> companies which even after being broken up have now re-combined so
> that we in effect only have 3 domestic tel-comm providers, and they
> are discussing how to combine their resources.

A government supported monopoly if ever I heard of one.  (Oooh that
statement is going to get me in trouble).

> Further explain why such a system will guarantee that my views will
> at least be addressed at some level and not relegated a priori to a
> trash-heap because it goes against the market analysis of some bunch
> of bean-counters?

I can't see any reason for any of your wishes to come true if there is
no one who can profit from fulfilling those wishes.

> Who do I go to for resolution of claims against these entities, the
> self-same entities?

An independent third party arbitrator service who's arbitration
services and terms were agreed up front in the contract?

> You call that justice, equality, or even representation?

Yes.  Representation of the $, excellent.

> Explain why and how such a economic based system will guarantee my
> right to free speech or even to run a small business which I
> currently do when it is clear that I am in open competition with the
> very entities which provide me the resources to make the money?

I don't know what your business is, but you're bright I'm sure you'll
thrive in a free market.

> What is the economic motivation for the resource controlling
> entities to support my freedoms when it reduces their income?

None.  Their interests are to keep their customers happy so that they
buy more products and services.  If you aren't a customer, or they
can't see any gain in helping you they may tell you to fuck off.
Sounds fair enough to me.  You want to pass laws telling them what
they can do with their resources?

> Explain how your system prevents economic black-balling? 

Anonymous payments, no reporting requirements.  Who are they going to
black ball?  Just start another nym.

> Another implication is that we will see more of the sort of business
> stategies implimented by PGP Inc. (for example) where they want a
> percentage of your income *without* accepting a percentage of the
> risk, economic tyrany is tyrany just the same.

That's fine by me.  If PGP Inc's price is fair, they'll do well.  If
it's too high they'll be under cut, and be forced to adjust or lose
trade to competition.

> What recourse do I have if the monopolies which arise in such a
> system decide that the services or resources I need won't be
> provided?

Go into a different line of business?  Buy the resources on the black
market?  Find another supplier of those resources, start a company to
supply those resoureces yourself.

> Am I then supposed to just calmly accept becoming some prole for
> some zaibatsu? What happens when those monopolies decide that if
> they work together they can further streamline the market, and my
> going to church or taking a vacation goes against those business
> requirements?

There is a danger that if monopolies thrive it could get dangerous.
However I'm not sure even then it's going to be worse than the current
situation... 50% income tax?  Corporations will I think learn that a
satisfied happy employee works harder.  It simply isn't worth it to
them to piss you off.  Also I'm not sure large corporations are the
most efficient company size -- I suspect some of them may fragment
without generous corporate welfare programs.

> It sounds like you are supporting Hirshleifer who says:
> 
> "The mere fact of low income under anarchy... of itself provides no clear
> indication as to what is likely to happen next."

I tend to think there would be an economic boom... all those previous
unproductive government employees joining the work productive force.

> Which in effect breaks down into one of two results for individuals (which
> all free market anarchists admit openly) who don't have sufficient income
> to buy their indipendance and their say:
> 
> 1.  they devote a great deal of effort to fighting to gain control over
>     resources.
> 
> or 
> 
> 2.  they capitulate to some other party and turn over their resources
>     for food and shelter.

Sounds fair enough to me.  If an individual can't manage his own
finances, perhaps he would be better off in some kind of managed
community.  Better than having the state steal money off productive
people to fund his laziness or ineptitude.

> History would argue that people will accept neither of these as a
> solution to day-to-day living. Economists should stay out of
> politics.

That's a strange statement.  Economics is reality.  If you can't
persuade people to part with their money through their own volition,
it's theft!  People's charity is your only recourse if you are unable
to provide any services.  Taking charity at gun point tends to annoy
people, and tends to be called theft.

> It's one of the reasons that at no point in either the Declaration
> of Indipendance or the Constitution that businesses are given rights
> are even given consideration except in regards of taxation of
> inter-state commerce. People should have seperation of government
> and religion and that includes the worship of wealth.

Disolve government, that should be a good way of separating it from
lobbying by religious fantasists.  Worship of wealth is much healthier
than worship of institutionalised theft.

> > (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
> > to consider as a comparison).
> 
> If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore?

Considering what a murderous bunch of savages they were it's simply
amazing that it lasted as long as it did.

> If it provided such a superior governmental system providing the
> maximum return on investment why did it go away? Why did they
> instead elect to go with a king? 

They didn't realise what they were losing.

> Futher, explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without
> demonstrating the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual
> democracies such as ancient Greek ran into?

It doesn't have to scale.  People will form all sorts of groups with
local ordnances, the choice is in picking one which suits you.

> It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of people who are
> related, share world-models and have limited resources and quite
> another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not
> thousands of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?

If some people preferred democracy such sheeple could find a company
who would be happy to fleece them of 50% of their incomes, and
institute local ordnances such as 10 year incarceration for smoking of
selected herbs.

> >  Do you have a democracy in mind which
> > doesn't result in lots thought crimes and other "crimes" which are so
> > far removed from normal free market schelling points.  It's just a
> > natural tendency of a democracy.
> 
> Thought crimes and such are not a result of any political system but a
> result of the psychology of people.

Yes.  However democracy is a good way to ensure that some powerful
lobbying groups have increased ability to enforce their view points on
others.

> Please be so kind as to demonstrate (along with my previous
> questions I am still waiting on) how a political system effects the
> basic psychological development of the participants.

It avoids the moral bankruptcy of stealing money from people at the
point of a gun to enforce your personal preferences on other people.

People will live and let live if for no other reason than it is too
expensive to try to pressure their views on others.

> Further, explain how the belief in the resolving power of money is
> any different than the resolving power of Buddha? You seem to be
> claiming that if we pray to the all mighty dollar all will be right
> with the world.

Pray to Buddha for food and shelter if you like.  I reckon a $ is more
effective.  It also ensures that buyers and sellers tend to maximise
their happiness (they make trade choices to maximise their personal
hapiness, and they have more scope to make these choices because there
are less restrictions).

> The simply fact that one has a constitution that guarantees certain
> rights is *not* a guarantee that others won't find those rights
> threatening and want to take them away (see Hirshleifer's two
> alternatives above). And your assertion is that if we go to a free
> market anarchy then we no longer have to worry about anyone telling
> us what we can and can't do? Please be so kind as to demonstrate why
> a free market anarchy will prohibit monopolistic organizations who
> would be just as threatened by armed individuals as any other
> centralized organization?

> > > Explain to me why you believe these are valid views 
> > 
> > because they are a statement of readily observable reality?
> 
> Where do I observe them? 

Turn on your boob-tube:-) It's even observable through the brain
washing and spin doctoring.

> Give examples. Whose reality? Are you seriously claiming that there
> is one absolute reality?

Well there clearly is one reality.  Your perception of it may differ
from mine.  However I sort of presumed that you were vaguely
libertarian and had noticed some of the excesses of your
democractically elected and oh so accountable government :-)

> Governments and religions *ARE* people. There are times where I
> think you have said the stupidist thing possible and then you keep
> typing. Individuals are the ones who killed the Jews, put pepper
> spray in the eyes of demonstrators, and just about everything else
> that gets done.

Herds of people do much worse things than individuals no their own on
average.  Just following orders: I just turn on the gas, etc.

> > I say: there were less laws in 1897 US than 1997 US.
> > 
> > Tell me: do you refute that claim?
> 
> I don't know, never looked at the numbers *AND* it isn't my job to refute
> it. *IT IS* your job to prove it since it is *YOUR* claim and apparently has
> some relevance to your thesis' validity. 

I don't think the veracity is even debatable, it's obviously true.
Your point seems to be that I must now run off to a library and dig up
some references for you.  Go do it yourself, you don't seem to even
disagree with the claim!

> It is plain stupidity to make claims and not have a clue as to the
> reality.

I think it is a clear reality that the number of laws is increasing
over time in the US.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From brianbr at together.net  Sun Nov  2 08:37:40 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:37:40 +0800
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: William Louis ... Pol Pot speaks...
Message-ID: <199711021632.LAA07951@mx02.together.net>



 I forwarded a copy of the above article to my friend Roger who lives and 
works in Thailand and this was his response ... I thought it might be of 
interest to the list.

---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
Date:        11/02  9:13 AM
Received:    11/02  10:39 AM
From:        Roger Adams, rogera at mozart.inet.co.th
To:          Brian B. Riley, brianbr at together.net

>Brian B. Riley wrote:
>>I came across this piece the other day and am rereading it for the 
>>fourth or fifth time. "Food for thought" doesn't even begin to 
>>describe it in my rarely very humble opinion. 
>  (snip)
>>Pol Pot Speaks
>>
>> On Oct. 16 Nate Thayer, an American correspondent for the weekly 
>>Far Eastern Economic Review, conducted the first known interview 
>>since 1979 with Cambodian Communist Pol Pot. The New York Times 
>>printed excerpts Oct. 23. 

>Brian,
>
>Nate is actually based in Bangkok and I have met him quite a few 
>times in one of my favourite watering holes. I was there last Friday 
>(31st Oct) and was told that he had gone back to Phnom Penh to 
>confront Hun Sen for calling him a liar and questioning the validity 
>of his interview with Pol Pot. Nate apparently got very upset at 
>this so he decided to sort it out. All of us who know him feel that 
>he is risking his life by going back to Cambodia at this time. The 
>situation there is very unstable and life is very cheap. We all 
>hope he makes it back safely.
>
>Just for some background information, Nate is a very intense and 
>proud fellow who takes his profession very seriously indeed. He is 
>the only journalist to have been able to get close enough to Pol 
>Pot (by close, I mean in very near proximity) to be able to watch 
>and film him being tried by his fellow commanders and to interview 
>him. A very facinating chap and very likeable. I am sure you came 
>across some of these types during the Vietnam War.
>
>Will keep you posted.
>
>Roger  

----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The
   savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe.
   Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
    -- Ayn Rand - The Fountainhead (1943)







From 1gh9TbMi2 at gen.com  Mon Nov  3 00:38:35 1997
From: 1gh9TbMi2 at gen.com (1gh9TbMi2 at gen.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:38:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Software
Message-ID: <1yB6APE@so2tUe7>



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From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov  2 09:20:31 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:20:31 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
In-Reply-To: <199711021554.KAA07184@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0825444fa4b@[207.167.93.63]>



At 8:54 AM -0700 11/2/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:

>On 10/29/97 8:08 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:
>
>>The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo
>>(7.62x29, as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles
>>chambering this popular round).
>> ---
>>Before you rush to correct me, I _meant_ to write "7.62x39" of
>>course.
>>
>>(A round used by the Chinese, Soviet, and East Bloc nations, and
>>roughly equivalent to the American M-16 round, known either as the
>>.223 or 5.56mm. The NATO "7.62" is in a longer case length.
>>7.62x54, as I recall. Known in America as .308.
>
> If I remember right they were able to do this because the only ammo
>available for 7.62x39  is from the Chinese and uses steel core
>projectiles not lead. Then when Olympic Arms came out with the cutdown
>weapon chambered for 7.62x39 it was able to be banned uder a
>regualtion banning "armor piercing ammo that could be used in a
>handgun."

Vinnie M. sent me a note also saying this. I guess the Eastern European
stuff is available--for now.

Some in the gun community are vilifying Olyarms for introducing this OA-93
"assault pistol" (the name often applied to politically incorrect pistols
like this). As if Olyarms should have been cowed into not introducing a
product out of fear that Clinton would abuse his authority to ban Chinese
ammo.

>   One thing though,  7.62x39 really could not be compared to the 5.56
>NATO, its really more potent out to 2-300 meters; it is still a .30
>cal vs 5.56 NATOs .223,  but its far less potent than 7.62 NATO
>(7.62x54). The 7.62x39 was the standard caliber of ComBloc weapons for
>several decades, most specifically the AK-47, AKM-44 (sniper weapon),
>and SKS carbine. I think the Dragunov sniper system used a more potent
>cartridge.

I've never owned anything in 7.62x39. I hear the SKS rifles are pretty good
for $150, or whatever, and a lot of people have bought them. To me they
look a little crude. And since I can afford things out of the AR-15 line....

(Debate rages in rec.guns and elsewhere about the relative merits of the
cartridges. I certainly see more variants of the AR-15 here in America,
more use by tactical and law enforcement teams, and more accessories. But
maybe I'm not looking in the right places.)

One of the more interesting images I ever saw was a photo in one of the gun
mags of a friendly meeting in the U.S. between Eugene Stoner, principal
designer of the AR-15 (the M-16 in its military version) and Mikhail
Kalashnikov, whose name needs no further explanation.

I suppose tree-hugging peaceniks would be aghast at a meeting between these
two merchants of death. I, being an antigovernment type, was nevertheless
impressed.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov  2 09:48:49 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:48:49 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <199711021310.FAA06433@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0825c6de50d@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:10 AM -0700 11/2/97, Mix wrote:

>Tim May wrote:
>>Since when is broadcasting a radio or television show or writing an
>>essay evidence of complicity in a murder, even when it "pushes
>>someone over the line"?
>
>The producers of the show had better hope that it is not evidence of
>complicity in a murder.
>
>Let's say Tim is crazy.(*)  He told us how much he enjoyed seeing the
>BATF agent take one in the face.  If this were to inspire him to try
>the same thing in real life, how would the producers of the show be
>less guilty than the talk show host?

According to the dubious logic of that episode, no doubt they would say
they were innocent because they had not _met_ me on any occasions. If,
however, the prosecution could produce a witness saying she had seen me in
the company of the writer, director, producer, etc., then their bacon would
be cooked. By the logic of their episode, of course.

>
>(*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
>The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
>

It used to be called "free speech."

Nowadays, admitting that one has guns is fed baiting. Admitting that one
will defend one's self is fed baiting. Admtting that one has read certain
books is fed baiting. And using unbreakable crypto is fed baiting.

Ah, what has the world come to?

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sun Nov  2 09:56:49 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:56:49 +0800
Subject: cute
Message-ID: <199711021741.JAA23263@sirius.infonex.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> There was a discussion a little while ago suggesting that toad.com had
> been compromised by people who were sowing dissension by partially
> distributing certain messages.  Had toad signed all of its messages,
> it would be possible to obtain evidence supporting this hypothesis
> without relying entirely on the word of people we may not know.

How do signed messages deal with the incompleat distribushun problem?
If legit signed messages are not sent to half the list, what does
the sig gain us?

> Had somebody compromised toad, they would still have to correctly sign
> messages.

But, depending on the compromise, this could be possible.

> > This would also prevent an attack where somebody forges mail from a
> > cypherpunks list machine to flush out identities.  If the attacker
> > sends a unique message to every person, he or she will be able to
> > break an identity if the message is replied to on the list.

Thats why its a good ideal to missquote peaple.   And to only reply
from the account you read on.  And to use remalers.


Monty Cantspell
Editor in Chief
Groan Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/groan_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantspell_10.htm

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From kelsey at plnet.net  Sun Nov  2 10:11:18 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:11:18 +0800
Subject: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia
Message-ID: <199711021808.MAA30033@email.plnet.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 10/30/97 ##
  Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia ]

>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:35:41 -0800
>From: Bill Stewart <stewarts at ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia

>At this year's CFP one evening we were playing the game of
>"You want to cause maximum disruption to the US
>infrastructure, and you've got 100 small explosive devices.
>Where do you put them?" Much creativity was displayed and
>substantial amounts of testosterone reveled in, and the
>overall conclusion was that we'd be in deep trouble if
>anybody even vaguely competent wanted to monkeywrench the
>system.

I agree.  This has always been my reaction to the infowar
folks--anyone who understands how to attack a system can
look around and find hundreds of fairly easy targets.  Some
of these targets just *can't* be protected in a
cost-effective way.  (Note the way the IRA and various
Palestinian terrorists still manage to find soft targets,
despite the fact that their intended victims have spent
years and millions of dollars hardening the obvious soft
points.)

>After that, we played the Russell-Brand-like game of
>"Destruction is easy.  What would you do if you wanted to
>create the most joy in the world instead."  That was harder
>:-)

Of course.  Any moron with a hammer can ruin a car engine;
it takes a skilled mechanic to fix one.  The same applies
almost everywhere--destroying something takes a fraction of
the skill of building or maintaining it.

>				Thanks!
>					Bill
>Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
>Regular Key PGP Fingerprint
>                D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36






From kelsey at plnet.net  Sun Nov  2 10:11:21 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:11:21 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: Perry's Crypto List, Cypherpunks ## Date: 11/01/97 ##
  Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol ]

I've been working on various copyright protection schemes
from time to time over the last three years.  The general
goal is (naturally enough) to make some digital data hard to
copy without some kind of permission or payment or record
being made.  Thus, a user may have a book (mostly text,
perhaps with some illustrations) he is reading on his
computer, and the publisher wants to make sure that that
user can't give copies of the book to all his friends, or
post it to the net, or whatever.

I'm convinced that there will never be a secure solution to
this problem.  (I can't imagine that this is news to anyone
on these two lists.)  I have somewhat mixed feelings about
this--I'd hate to see my favorite authors and musicians
either waiting tables for a living, or having to insert
references to their sponsors' products in their stories.
(``And then he bought her a Coke, and her eyes lit up.'') On
the other hand, a widespread copyright commerce system that
really works is most of the infrastructure for a massive
censorship mechanism.  (Reset the price of books you don't
like to a billion dollars US per copy made.)

Suppose I want to get paid for the next chapter of my
thrilling novel.  A whole bunch of people want to see me
publish my next chapter.  So, I make some statement like
``When I get $1,000 in donations, I will publish
the next chapter in this novel.''  Readers can go to my
website, see how much further there is to go, and donate
money to the cause of getting my novel out.  Note that I,
the author, don't care *who* pays to get the next chapter
out; nor do I care about free riders.  Instead, I just care
that my $1,000 pot gets filled.  When it does, I publish the
next chapter.

There are basically three things that can go wrong here:

a.  I set my price too high, and never reach my amount.  (It
might be possible to decrease the total amount required
later, though it would be a little questionable to do this
often.)

b.  I set my price too low, and get lots less than I could
have gotten.  (This is self-correcting.)

c.  I get my amount filled, but still don't publish the next
chapter of my novel.

The trust issues, especially with (c), are worth
considering.  The obvious (clunky) way to solve this is to
have a trusted third party handle the whole transaction.  We
will call him the Publisher.

Now, I submit my novel, or parts of it, to the Publisher.
He has his editors review it to see if it's worth trying to
sell (like any publisher, albeit with rather low
printing/binding costs).  If so, he and I agree on a price
and split.  For unknown authors, the first several chapters,
or even the first few books, may be freely available, in
hopes of drawing in customers.  For known authors, perhaps
the first chapter or two is free, and the rest go through
the payment mechanism.  He has my whole novel, and on his
web site, he makes available, say, chapters 1-3 for free,
and chapter 4 will become available when $1000 is donated to
the cause of getting it out, or on January 1, 1998.

If enough readers want to hurry up and see the next chapter,
they can make a payment.  The publisher needs no
identification for this, so anonymous payment systems work
quite well.  The Publisher holds the payments in escrow
until the chapter is released, and then sends me my cut.

I think I can build a similar protocol without the Publisher
taking anything but a backup role--he gets the money
transfers and holds them in escrow, and if the chpater isn't
released, either he can release it or he can return the
money, or donate it to some charity, or whatever.  (The
whatever has to be spelled out beforehand, and the money
mustn't go to the author, directly or indirectly.)

This is obviously not a complete solution.  The neat thing
is, it can be used with other systems.  (Thus, if you want
to include a shareware/guiltware message on each copy, or
try to use some kind of software or hardware protection for
the chapters once they're published, then this system
doesn't alter that much--the donors simply get prepurchased
copies of the book, released on the normal release date.)

Similar ideas may work in other areas.  In software, I
suspect it would be a way of getting a feel from the market
for what new features are wanted.  In music, perhaps this
could be used for individual songs, or maybe it would work
better for whole albums.  Television and movie serials could
work this way (it works for PBS, doesn't it?).  Some books,
music, and movies would be *awful* to release this way,
though.  I wish I had a more useful general solution, but
maybe this will help a little.

Comments?  This is clearly not all that new, but I've never
seen it in a crypto context from anyone but me.

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36






From kelsey at plnet.net  Sun Nov  2 10:15:13 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:15:13 +0800
Subject: Kyl's internet gambling bill
Message-ID: <199711021810.MAA30056@email.plnet.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 10/30/97 ##
  Subject: Kyl's internet gambling bill ]

>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:31:21 -0800
>From: Steve Schear <azur at netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Kyl S-474 Anti-Gambling Bill passes committee

[Stuff about Kyl's anti-internet gambling bill.]

>Prediction: this bill will be about as effective as
>outlawing spring.

>About 20% of gamblers are 'problem' types who now regularly
>game illegally and could careless about the penalties.  Once
>all on-line casinos offer real and 'play-money' wagering and
>strong crypto it will be neigh impossible for the Feds to
>know or prove which players are wagering real money and
>therefore gambling.  Once Onion and Crowds routers are
>operational and widespread the Feds won't even be able to
>find the casinos, and even if they do they may not be able
>to shut them down (especially if they are built in a
>distributed fasion).

I always find these laws entertaining.  In Missouri, we have
state-run gambling in the lottery system, and state-licenced
gambling on the riverboat casinos.  Our Attorney General has
been very vocal about shutting down internet casinos, to
protect Missouri's citizens from being exploited.  His
concern for the welfare of problem gamblers in our state
is touching.  Odd that he isn't worried about those same
citizens being taken advantage of by the in-state
operations.

Of course, the real issue here isn't about protecting
citizens from themselves, or even about keeping citizens
from being cheated by the electronic equivalent of weighted
dice.  It's about protecting the financial interests of
those who now benefit from having local gambling monopolies.
The state gets quite a bit of money from the lottery, and
the companies that have invested in building riverboat
casinos here are surely concerned about potential
competition via the internet.  The cities that have
riverboat casinos typically get some part of the money made
from them, which nicely brings those city governments into
line.  Presumably, something similar is happening with
various states' Indian Reservations opening casinos.

It's an interesting side-point that really anonymous
communications and payment systems applied to gambling
systems mean not only that *governments* can't shut down
competing gambling schemes, but also that organized crime
can't shut them down, whether through influencing corrupt
governments to try to shut them down, or through direct
action.


Ob Crypto:  There are cryptographic gambling protocols that
can be verified (given some set of assumptions about
underlying operations) to be fair.  Thus, it's possible for
a gambling operation to make their client software freely
available in source, and allow people to see what it does
and review it for fairness.  If you find a reviewer or two
you trust, you can ask them to digitially sign the
executable they got when they compiled the code, and refuse
to use any other code.  This gives you a level of certainty
that you're not being cheated by weighted dice that you
simply can't get in physical casinos.  (Sure, government
agencies inspect those casinos, but the inspectors aren't
incorruptible, and they can't be everywhere at once.)

For a simple example, consider a situation where Alice and
Bob need to agree on a shared seed.  Assume they already
have established a secure (encrypted and authenticated)
session. They can easily generate a new shared seed by doing
something like this:

1. Alice generates random R_0 and sends hash(R_0) to Bob.
2. Bob generates random R_1 and sends hash(R_1) to Alice.
3. Alice sends R_0 to Bob.
4. Bob sends R_1 to Alice.
5. Alice and Bob each generate their shared seed, R_0 XOR R_1.

If the hash function doesn't leak information about its
inputs, and if it is collision-resistant, then this protocol
should work.  If either party generates a random number,
then the resulting seed is random, regardless of the other
party's input.  (You still have to work out administrative

issues, like what happens when communications fail
conveniently just after Alice sends Bob R_0, but these are
easy enough to solve.)

>--Steve

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36






From brianbr at together.net  Sun Nov  2 11:41:39 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 03:41:39 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
Message-ID: <199711021935.OAA25880@mx01.together.net>



On 11/2/97 11:14 AM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

 [snip]

>Some in the gun community are vilifying Olyarms for introducing this OA-93
>"assault pistol" (the name often applied to politically incorrect pistols
>like this). As if Olyarms should have been cowed into not introducing a
>product out of fear that Clinton would abuse his authority to ban Chinese
>ammo.

  I would not villify them, but I would wonder if they considered that 
aspect when they decided to market the weapon.

>>   One thing though,  7.62x39 really could not be compared to the 5.56
>>NATO, its really more potent out to 2-300 meters; it is still a .30
>>cal vs 5.56 NATOs .223,  but its far less potent than 7.62 NATO
>>(7.62x54). The 7.62x39 was the standard caliber of ComBloc weapons for
>>several decades, most specifically the AK-47, AKM-44 (sniper weapon),
>>and SKS carbine. I think the Dragunov sniper system used a more potent
>>cartridge.
>
>I've never owned anything in 7.62x39. I hear the SKS rifles are pretty good
>for $150, or whatever, and a lot of people have bought them. To me they
>look a little crude. And since I can afford things out of the AR-15 line....

 Having faced down the SKS carbine in Nam on a couple of occasions, I can 
say its a rugged built and seemingly idiot proof weapon of reasonable 
accuracy out to 2-300 meters tops. Many versions come equipped with a 
three-fluted bayonette thats considerably longer than what we used and 
its *most* impressive when some guy comes out of the brush with one in 
your direction ... I got a chance to examine the blade from a few inches 
when I deflected his thrust and delivered a blow of my own ... I would 
just a soon have remained in blissful ignorance of the details ... <sigh>

>(Debate rages in rec.guns and elsewhere about the relative merits of the
>cartridges. I certainly see more variants of the AR-15 here in America,
>more use by tactical and law enforcement teams, and more accessories. But
>maybe I'm not looking in the right places.)

   The 7.62x39 really isn't much of a cartridge, its not potent enough to 
justify its size, 7.62x54 is more potent and its not small enough to 
capitalize on its wimpiness, 5.56 NATO delivers as much oomph in much 
less size. 

  It is relatively simple to appreciate the size difference. When the 
standard issue service rifle was the M-14 (7.62x54 NATA) the standard 
load for a soldier was six(6) magazines of twenty plus the seventh in the 
rifle. When the M-16 became the standard service rifle, the same ammo 
load weight permitted twenty (20) magazines of twenty plus a twenty-first 
in the rifle.
140 rounds versus 420 rounds - biiigggg difference

>One of the more interesting images I ever saw was a photo in one of the gun
>mags of a friendly meeting in the U.S. between Eugene Stoner, principal
>designer of the AR-15 (the M-16 in its military version) and Mikhail
>Kalashnikov, whose name needs no further explanation.
>
>I suppose tree-hugging peaceniks would be aghast at a meeting between these
>two merchants of death. I, being an antigovernment type, was nevertheless
>impressed.

 I too was quite impressed with that meeting, but not surprising. I 
brought a prisoner in once, an NVA regular, a major, and spent several 
days in the field with him before we could get lifted out. He spoke 
excellant English and wonderful education and a wry wit. I found I 
related better to him than I did to most of the upper ranks in the 1st 
MarDiv in DaNang ... almost had half a mind to say 'screw the suits' and 
let him go. Of course therein lies the problem of 'the suits' ... so long 
as they can get us to think of the enemy as 'gooks' or 'ragheads' or 
'krauts' they can con us into killing them ... but as soon as you realize 
they have wives and kids and jobs and bills and neighbors and aunts and 
uncles and nephews, in short, are just like use save for the cut of their 
uniform ... its gets a lot harder to see just why you should kill them 
(unless of course they are pointing a gun at you!)



Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "The strongest evidence of intelligent life on other planets is that
  they haven't come here yet.' -- from somewhere on The Net







From azur at netcom.com  Sun Nov  2 12:45:38 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:45:38 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b081a9259161@[10.0.2.15]>



>> (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
>> to consider as a comparison).
>
>If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore? If it provided such
>a superior governmental system providing the maximum return on investment
>why did it go away? Why did they instead elect to go with a king? Futher,
>explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without demonstrating
>the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual democracies such as
>ancient Greek ran into? It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of
>people who are related, share world-models and have limited resources and
>quite another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not thousands
>of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?

So, a solution is to encourage (e.g., through technological means) the
break-up of nation-states into smaller geo-political groupings.

--Steve







From azur at netcom.com  Sun Nov  2 12:45:41 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:45:41 +0800
Subject: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711010306.VAA27799@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b08196303f9c@[10.0.2.15]>



>>>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
>>>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
>>>      location of gunshots.
>
>This would be a network of microphones and processing stations which could
>perform a reverse-GPS location analysis of sounds picked up by 3 or more
>microphones.  (Sounds common to 2 microphones could be localized with a
>lower degree of accuracy if directional microphone arrays are used.)  Yet
>another instance of Big Brother technology that is of limited value to the
>police.  Of course, this means that you will have the police responding to
>every backfiring car, which will dampen their enthusiasm for responding
>unless full-auto fire or a prolonged gunfight is overheard.  Of course, if
>you have a silenced weapon and some cherry bombs with cigarette time-delay
>fuses, you can use this system to docoy the police into the wrong
>neighborhood.  Or if you confine yourself to single-shot assassinations
>near busy streets, it will probably be written off as a vehicle backfire,
>especially if you are doing a drive-by with a suppressed shotgun.  (Not
>possible to silence completely, but certainly possible to quiet to the
>point that it wouldn't attract undue notice along a busy street.)
>
>In order for this system to be worth anything, it would have to be able to:
>1.  Use voice recognition techniques to classify the type of weapon
>(primarily useful for machine guns--it could evaluate the frequency
>characteristics, rate of fire, etc. to distinguish between an AK-47 and an
>UZI) sufficiently well to distinguish between small-arms fire, fireworks
>(cherry bombs, M-80's, etc) and vehicle backfires.
>

In late 1994 several members of the Wireless Communication Alliance, an
organization related to Joint Venture Silicon Valley, gave a presentation
on such a system for which they were seeking LE/government funding.  As I
recall the pilot was for East Palo Alto (for those of you not familiar, its
a poor neighborhood, mostly minority, neighborhood between the Hwy 101 and
the Bay).  The wireless infrastructure was proposed to reduce costs to
practical levels by providing an inexpensive link to more centralized
processing. I haven't followed up and don't know if the project went
anywhere.

If reliable and used as presented it could reduce LE response to some
violent crimes. The prospects for misuse are truly scary.

--Steve







From equit at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  3 04:56:42 1997
From: equit at hotmail.com (equit at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:56:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: $600 Worth of FREE Software!
Message-ID: <199710311601.LAC19172@mail.nosuchplace.com>


 Hello,
  
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classified ads, newsgroups, AOL subscribers, Etc.
  
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 		 <mailto:cmillerton at hotmail.com>         

and you will receive information about this exciting opportunity right away!
  
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				cmillerton at hotmail.com 

for an immediate  response for more info.


Thanks,          






From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Sun Nov  2 13:38:51 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:38:51 +0800
Subject: cute.
Message-ID: <3758d87f6140a14b69fb75dda10350ef@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1 a.k.a Amad3us wrote:
>> I'm not sure a timestamp matters that much for "authenticating" your
>> key.  After all, you don't own "Amad3us", you own key 0x4D162BBE1.
>
>Yes.  Except for minor nit: 0x4D162BBE1 is susceptible to a
>0xdeadbeef attack, anyone can generate another key with that keyID.
>Even the fingerprint is spoofable.  But the combination is truly hard
>to spoof, and this I do own:
>0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1 (fingerprint/keyID).

Uhhh... that's what I meant to say.  (Although I can't think of a
circumstance where the fingerprint matters if the reputation is bound
to the key only.)

While we're on the subject, why are key IDs used anyway?  People don't
really use them for anything.  Software might as well use the complete
description of the key internally.

For that matter, I'm not sure the the e-mail address and user name are
good things to associate with the key.  The e-mail address changes all
the time.  The user name should be assigned by you as part of the
authentication procedure, not by the person offering the key.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  2 13:38:55 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:38:55 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <199711022133.PAA21644@multi26.netcomi.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>According to the dubious logic of that episode, no doubt they would
>say they were innocent because they had not _met_ me on any
>occasions. If, however, the prosecution could produce a witness
>saying she had seen me in the company of the writer, director,
>producer, etc., then their bacon would be cooked. By the logic of
>their episode, of course.

That's what their smart alecky lawyer will claim, anyway.  I am
confident that a jury made up of good red blooded Americans will see
through this sham.

The producers of the show certainly know that there are terrorist
elements and psychopaths who would be watching.  They know that these
people will be turned on by the imagery of a BATF agent being brutally
murdered.  They could have told the same story using different
imagery.  Instead of using graphic violence, they could have expressed
the idea of the BATF agent getting killed with a heartrending scene of
his wife getting the phone call.  That certainly would not have been
inflammatory.

But they didn't.  The opted to go with a glorification of the act.
Why?  Incompetence won't wash - anybody getting to national TV has
spent years in the business and is a total pro.  They know what effect
they are having.

They glorified this act of violence to encourage others to do the
same.  Where is the FBI?  Why isn't anybody doing anything?  If the
life of only one BATF agent is spared, it will be worthwhile!  Think
of his poor wife and kids.

>>(*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
>>The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
>>
>
>It used to be called "free speech."
>
>Nowadays, admitting that one has guns is fed baiting. Admitting that
>one will defend one's self is fed baiting. Admtting that one has read
>certain books is fed baiting. And using unbreakable crypto is fed
>baiting.
>
>Ah, what has the world come to?

Remailers?  ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  2 13:43:00 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:43:00 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
Message-ID: <199711022136.PAA21739@multi26.netcomi.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>> My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
>> message is signed, and my key is included within the message for those of you 
>> who have software that discards the non signed portion.  (If you don't know 
>> how to extract my key, copy it and fix the broken dashed line, or use a 
>> keyserver)
>
>Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
>this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows
>this. He simply hopes that there are some people that don't know this. The
>idea behind the original post and others like it over the last few days is
>to spread FUD about PGP 5.0 after other attacks failed for lack of merrit.
>If you repeat a lie often enough, eventually some people will believe you. 
>PSYOPS 101. Let's not fall for it.

Actually, the cry of "Infowar!" itself could be used as a disruptive
technique.  It undermines dialogue.  It breeds suspicion and paranoia.
It encourages people to think of those who disagree with them as The
Enemy.  It can be used by a mole for cover.

Gee, come to think of it, isn't Lucky the one who keeps trying to
demoralize everyone by saying that Big Brother is inevitable?

And, who was it that was waving around firearms at a Cypherpunks
meeting?  Isn't that a classic provocateur technique?  (See the Earth
First experience, for example.)

Now, I think it's unlikely that Lucky is a mole.  I'm just trying to
show that once you start witch hunting, it turns out that the supply
of witches tends to be highly responsive to demand.

The Back Technique of fighting Infowar seems to be effective.  Treat
the claims of the suspected Infowarrior as if they are credible and
carefully explain why there is an inaccuracy.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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lqEqWksZVDKTbW8Bwc/1Up5Eek/YXzj1kT/YMnxB2bbnASfIA19GtA==
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov  2 14:13:28 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:13:28 +0800
Subject: ISP is not an important part of identity
In-Reply-To: <3758d87f6140a14b69fb75dda10350ef@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0829a6373be@[207.167.93.63]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 2:28 PM -0700 11/2/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:

>For that matter, I'm not sure the the e-mail address and user name are
>good things to associate with the key.  The e-mail address changes all
>the time.  The user name should be assigned by you as part of the
>authentication procedure, not by the person offering the key.
>
>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine


Yep, I get people asking me to "prove" that the "Tim May" who uses the
got.net ISP is the same "Tim May" as "tcmay at netcom.com," which got
associated with my original 1992 key generation.

I try to tell them, "I'm that same entity, whoever that is, if I can sign
messages with that key."

They somehow think the tcmay at netcom.com vs. tcmay at got.net dichotomy is
what's really important. I then ignore them.

- --Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 14:15:39 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:15:39 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711022210.XAA19506@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Blanc wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>>But, why do we need a lawyer? We have the right to represent ourselves, why
>>let somebody who has a intimate stake in the status quo represent us?
>
>Well, first of all I was being facetious, because of how people are always
>saying we need Leadership (tm) and need to elect another President in order
>to have a more Perfect Union.   But I said we need a "good" lawyer - a
>libertarian lawyer - because I expect that it would take someone who had
>studied the legal system and made it their project to be well-educated and
>articulate on these matters, to be able to successfully represent the
>Consitutional values which we subscribe to.
[snip]

Fortunately some of these "good" lawyers already exist at the Institute for 
Justice.  Basically, they are a libertarian version of the ACLU.  They've 
accomplished some good things and deserve the support (read $$$) of 
freedom-minded individuals everywhere.  (note: I'm not connected with them
in any way; just letting the cypherpunk community know about an organization
in sync with our views)

 "If you seek a courtroom champion for individual liberty, free market
  solutions, and limited government, look only as far as the Institute
  for Justice.  When politicians pass sweepingly intrusive laws and
  bureaucrats build their empires of paperwork and power, only the
  Institute for Justice brings them to account in court."
  -- http://www.InstituteforJustice.org/

>>Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
>>Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
>>relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
>>the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. 
>
>I don't know.   But this is the sort of issue I was thinking of.

Bill Benson has done some extensive research (his book is called The Law 
That Never Was) regarding the 16th Amendment (the so-called Income Tax 
Amendment) and how it was ratified.  According to the information he has 
uncovered through exhaustive research in D.C. and all of the state capitals 
of the then 48 states, the 16th Amendment was never ratified by 3/4ths of 
the states. (see http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html for more info)

Friends of mine have spoken to Mr. Benson about this, and he says that the 
courts won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  He even sells a package (or at 
least he was selling it back in 1995) of legal information about the 
non-ratification of the 16th that can be used as a defense in an income tax 
case.  According to Mr. Benson (in 1995), each of the cases was dropped when 
the defense made it clear they were going to argue their defense based on 
this point.

I understand that folks in the "patriot" movement have tried to take this to 
the Supreme Court without success.  The Court refused to hear it.

Assuming Mr. Benson's research is accurate and legitimate, the 16th didn't 
even come close to being ratified and is truly a Law That Never Was.  Think 
about that next April 15th...the IRS's "lawful" authority is based upon a
legal fiction.  That's why it's called >voluntary< compliance.

Nerthus

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 14:29:33 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:29:33 +0800
Subject: Vote CypherPunk!
Message-ID: <199711022212.XAA19710@basement.replay.com>



At 20:24 -0500 10/31/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>* In August, the Boston Globe profiled the Taiwan National
>Assembly (which specializes in constitutional issues), where it is
>fairly common for the minority New Party to filibuster by merely
>grabbing the microphone and physically restraining majority-party
>members so that they cannot call for votes.  Fights break out,
>sometimes bloody ones.  Said a local political science professor, "It
>may not be civilized, but it's efficient" because citizens respond by
>re-electing the aggressive legislators.  

I'd probably have a lot more respect for Congresscritters if they cared
enough about any issue to physically fight about it. Maybe we could issue
them weapons, too; then term limits would become a moot point. (Who would
win if Jesse Helms and Diane Feinstein had a fight to the death? The 
American citizens.)

A suitable quote from Monty Python:

    We would like to apologize for the way politicians are
    represented in this programme. It was never our intention  to
    imply that politicians are weak-kneed, political time-servers
    who are concerned more with their personal vendettas and
    private power struggles than the problems of government, nor
    to suggest at any point that they sacrifice their credibility
    by denying free debate on vital matters in the mistaken
    impression that party unity comes before the well-being of
    the people they supposedly represent, nor to imply at any
    stage that they are squabbling little toadies without an
    ounce of concern for the vital social problems of today. Nor
    indeed do we intend that viewers should consider them as
    crabby ulcerous self-seeking vermin with furry legs and an
    addiction to alcohol and certain explicit sexual practices
    which some people might find offensive. We are sorry if this
    impression has come across.

In fact, they could run this at the top of every hour on C-SPAN. I'll call
my cable company.









From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov  2 14:35:43 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:35:43 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199711022231.QAA06224@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:10:11 +0100 (MET)
> To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> Fortunately some of these "good" lawyers already exist at the Institute for 
> Justice.  Basically, they are a libertarian version of the ACLU.  They've 
> accomplished some good things and deserve the support (read $$$) of 
> freedom-minded individuals everywhere.  (note: I'm not connected with them
> in any way; just letting the cypherpunk community know about an organization
> in sync with our views)
> 
>  "If you seek a courtroom champion for individual liberty, free market
>   solutions, and limited government, look only as far as the Institute
>   for Justice.  When politicians pass sweepingly intrusive laws and
>   bureaucrats build their empires of paperwork and power, only the
>   Institute for Justice brings them to account in court."
>   -- http://www.InstituteforJustice.org/

Thanks, I'll check them out as I am unaware of their position.

> >>Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
> >>Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
> >>relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
> >>the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. 
> >
> >I don't know.   But this is the sort of issue I was thinking of.
> 
> Bill Benson has done some extensive research (his book is called The Law 
> That Never Was) regarding the 16th Amendment (the so-called Income Tax 
> Amendment) and how it was ratified.  According to the information he has 
> uncovered through exhaustive research in D.C. and all of the state capitals 
> of the then 48 states, the 16th Amendment was never ratified by 3/4ths of 
> the states. (see http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html for more info)
> 
> Friends of mine have spoken to Mr. Benson about this, and he says that the 
> courts won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  He even sells a package (or at 
> least he was selling it back in 1995) of legal information about the 
> non-ratification of the 16th that can be used as a defense in an income tax 
> case.  According to Mr. Benson (in 1995), each of the cases was dropped when 
> the defense made it clear they were going to argue their defense based on 
> this point.
> 
> I understand that folks in the "patriot" movement have tried to take this to 
> the Supreme Court without success.  The Court refused to hear it.
> 
> Assuming Mr. Benson's research is accurate and legitimate, the 16th didn't 
> even come close to being ratified and is truly a Law That Never Was.  Think 
> about that next April 15th...the IRS's "lawful" authority is based upon a
> legal fiction.  That's why it's called >voluntary< compliance.

Actualy, his research is one of the reasons that I am so interested in an
actual lawsuit.

What if somebody were to go for several years with no contact at all with
the IRS, and no intention of making contact. Then when approached that
person makes enough noise to guarantee that they will be going to court.
What would it then take to bush-whack the beggars? What is the absolute last
point that your defence must be revealed prior to your presenting your case
to the jury? The reason I use the first person is because to me it seems
critical that no lawyer is actualy used in the defence. As I understand it,
and I ain't no lawyer, there are some actions that a defendent may do if
representing themselves that lawyers are prohibited from doing. Among them
is stating the obvious fact, if the jurors don't believe the law is just
they may refuse to find for that reason. If the Constitution and the actual
record of votes in concert with the general feeling of excess regarding this
matter doesn't prove the case, what will?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov  2 14:46:08 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:46:08 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711022240.QAA06284@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 19:55:02 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <azur at netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (fwd)

> >If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore? If it provided such
> >a superior governmental system providing the maximum return on investment
> >why did it go away? Why did they instead elect to go with a king? Futher,
> >explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without demonstrating
> >the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual democracies such as
> >ancient Greek ran into? It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of
> >people who are related, share world-models and have limited resources and
> >quite another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not thousands
> >of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?
> 
> So, a solution is to encourage (e.g., through technological means) the
> break-up of nation-states into smaller geo-political groupings.

Technological, societal, political, religous, whatever non-confrontational
(ie avoid the use of force unless physicaly attacked) mechanism that is
present in human societies. 

Exactly! See that is the aspect of our democracy that so few people seem to
understand. The relationship between the fed's and the states is supposed to
be as equals. If the fed's want to do something they have to get a lot of
the states to go along with it or else they don't get the resources. The
states can't get too far out of line because of their ability to represent
the other n-1 states.

The problem now, fundamentaly to my view, is that the states are seen as
chatels or sub-servient to the fed's.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  2 14:53:11 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:53:11 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711022247.QAA24111@multi26.netcomi.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[Long discussion about crypto-anarchy vs. democracy removed]

I suggest reframing the argument.  Right now, the discussion seems to
be: "If we were Gods, how would we institute a just political system
on these people."  Unfortunately, only a few Gods are reading the
cypherpunks list and they refuse to do our bidding.

The real question is: what should we do?

Our (oversimplified) choices:

1. Democracy: Participate in the political process by joining various
   organizations, lobbying, begging for money, voting, etc. etc.

2. Crypto-Anarchy: Write code, buy guns, make money, make more money,
   etc. etc.

The second choice is clearly better in terms of protecting your own
hide.

What if we want to protect the hides of other people?  I believe
choice 2 is still the better one.  In any event, this is the more
interesting discussion.

The problem with choice 1 is that even if you can convince yourself
that a group of people and an institution are sound and reliable
today, you do not know what it will be doing later on.  Choice 2, on
the other hand, is a low risk investment and brings you into contact
with a better group of people.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFzVSpaWtjSmRH/5AQG9LQf/WCepJirikSAU4DIVlRTqYQkfkahLDtxi
H8E3a0HSoOYSJAJefx4h2Zl0yy2lYT6mdNjNYsjIR3lDbkDJh97DfgueLHAhmivE
Ht4C9XzyzKB2CRGiLD5hlbGRzBYACUWU2sm5xNIxYJ44AuwyhHgpVp8vhQts7XRM
xQzLtF4fDD+8Hc5AKq4vE4lTpJzwHUO7T2yANZlFMpx0clJDj7/pr+gSUTaWQcK4
pok4wAj+Hd9wrTtOLG40SqEQmmISi8owutvGStQgb3PSjDFsmpAQimxr4agMcylZ
7qxkNRc/sUzfdN5uc89n1cQ+E2fenocs5W6GJ7N8GRnfYP6127uveQ==
=OuX5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From fred at dev.null  Sun Nov  2 15:04:24 1997
From: fred at dev.null (Fred)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:04:24 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <199711021310.FAA06433@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <345CF865.7B54@dev.null>



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

Mix wrote:

> (*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
> The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
                           ^^^ (typo)

Could you tell me the best way to kill a policeman, politician, or
world leader, without using a gun? 

Thanks,
  Fred







From millerd at vhoorl.rli-net.net  Sun Nov  2 15:17:52 1997
From: millerd at vhoorl.rli-net.net (Gabriel Millerd)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:17:52 +0800
Subject: domo & pgp
In-Reply-To: <199711022212.XAA19710@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971102165439.11732A-100000@vhoorl.rli-net.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

has anyone here gotten domo to work with pgp? at minimal signing outbound
messages?

- ---
Gabriel Millerd        |  The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as
RLI Internet Services  |     a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in
System Admin Attribu   |   philosophy because it is an exalted activity will
http://www.rli-net.net |   have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy...
                       |     neither its pipes nor its theories will hold
                       |                        water.

PGP Finger Print
DSS: 1024 0xE760079B = B6D4 DB5B 4990 C79F 00E7  BF4A 1E15 B47A E760 079B
D/H: 4096 0xD53C231B = BC6F C82E FD5C BE0A AF33  607C 8406 4A79 D53C 231B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Comment: Key on public key server http://keys.pgp.com
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF0FKx4VtHrnYAebEQIougCfRizGJwUBMc3ew3rt1VenKRfS3bsAn3bW
VahIGhTy7LHZfCdLj6TOh90m
=CUeL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Sun Nov  2 16:27:32 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:27:32 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <439400e9f3604a48781f48485a000403@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantspell, Editor in Chief of Groan Magazine, wrote:
>> There was a discussion a little while ago suggesting that toad.com had
>> been compromised by people who were sowing dissension by partially
>> distributing certain messages.  Had toad signed all of its messages,
>> it would be possible to obtain evidence supporting this hypothesis
>> without relying entirely on the word of people we may not know.
>
>How do signed messages deal with the incompleat distribushun problem?
>If legit signed messages are not sent to half the list, what does the
>sig gain us?

When Attila says "I have this message from the list" and it has a
valid signature, it makes things considerably more interesting because
we don't have to trust Attila very much.  For instance, it may give
the owner of the signing key incontrovertible proof that his machine
was compromised.  If we have several examples of messages which are
slightly different from each other and are signed by the list key, we
know that an attack was mounted, although we may not know by whom.

>> Had somebody compromised toad, they would still have to correctly sign
>> messages.
>
>But, depending on the compromise, this could be possible.

I phrased that badly.  What I meant to say was that the person who
compromised the machine may be able to sign messages, but he or she
will still have to sign all the messages going out.  Which means that
they can be compared later, which may show incontrovertible proof that
Something Is Wrong And It Is Wrong In A Most Interesting Way.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFzqp5aWtjSmRH/5AQFAsgf7B2F4xDdQZc4koltSO1exTkAGIzxH8nCP
7lh5r2P3vPhC1BfxkCMr3+kTIAuTcXPhvkmGxXNGjud+wqPOW/BYDPUfyjGDQ/rD
TZOM23iqVYZIfiiyEdl3DbqmiIv7W0Zrs8b9yhlDnjWPXGnqmgu5QV8LM3QHEEKk
nOhKz+qm3cv4UNI9wK87+PjmFKNN9JZCq3WsFCYPI9QSCJR9qgZ7YXnGAPGs7dbG
CYRhRYRUMPYBha2RfROvkU5xWH32iRE0bdLQ/uxCjL0vZxoMSq5gDMAjm1Hu02+L
8qTsyCK/LeCRBwtNBCHTO70E71lsV2jD+03Xcxm3SzYHnNo5G6RUHQ==
=x/pi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From steve at lvdi.net  Sun Nov  2 16:34:01 1997
From: steve at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:34:01 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b082c490dd70@[208.129.55.202]>



>Comments?  This is clearly not all that new, but I've never
>seen it in a crypto context from anyone but me.

The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV
presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."   The first
part proposed an Eternity-like system to anonymously publish information
which was compatible with most Web index engines.

In the second part, Eric predicted that because of the Net's economics and
anonymous mailing and publication potential copyrights were on their way
out.  He acknowledged that some workable method of artist compensation was
still needed and proposed the movie industry as a possible model.  In this
scenario a multi-level money collection and product distribution scheme
would be supported by artist reputation and completion bonds.

--Steve

(Esther Dyson is a supporter of alternative publication economics, and I've
heard Eric's approach.)







From tm at dev.null  Sun Nov  2 16:52:17 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:52:17 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <439400e9f3604a48781f48485a000403@squirrel>
Message-ID: <345D1D29.3FBF@dev.null>



> Monty Cantspell, Iditor in Grief of Groan Ragazine, writed:

> When Attila says "I have this message from the list" and it has a
> valid signature, it makes things considerably more interesting because
> we don't have to trust Attila very much.

Attila,
  If you are short on reputation capital, I could lend you some.

TruthMonger






From sales at morbrandnames.com  Mon Nov  3 11:32:48 1997
From: sales at morbrandnames.com (sales at morbrandnames.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:32:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE WATCH, ROLEX, NOVADO, GUCCI STYLES
Message-ID: <>


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TO VISIT OUR HOME PAGE GO TO  

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Have a Happy Holiday

*If for any reason you wish to be removed from our e mail list  
mailto:sales at morbrandnames.com 
and in your subject box type " remove".
We apologize for your inconvenience.










From sales at morbrandnames.com  Mon Nov  3 11:32:48 1997
From: sales at morbrandnames.com (sales at morbrandnames.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:32:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE WATCH, ROLEX, NOVADO, GUCCI STYLES
Message-ID: <>


FREE QUARTZ WATCH OFFER 
NO PURCHASE NECESSARY    !!!!!!!!!!

Free watch to any person who will visit our shopping mall
website. Free quartz watch with a leather band,White, black
or gold face. Valued at $30 retail in the  major department stores.
We offer over 500 assorted fashion watches like: 

ROLEX, GUCCI, CHANEL, MOVADO, styles and many more............
 
FREE PERFUME OFFER .......... SEE WEBSITE FOR DETAILS
Over 200 PERFUME  versions  1 OZ, 2 OZ, 3.3 OZ, 3.4 OZ 

For ladies: 
CHANEL #5, WHITE DIAMONDS, CK1, 
GIORGIO, COOL WATER   and many more............

for men: 
POLO SPORT, GIORGIO RED, TOMMY HILFIGER,
DRAKKAR NOIR, MICHAEL JORDAN and many more...

<<< Come  shop with us for the Holidays and save >>>

TO VISIT OUR HOME PAGE GO TO  

http://www.morbrandnames.com

Have a Happy Holiday

*If for any reason you wish to be removed from our e mail list  
mailto:sales at morbrandnames.com 
and in your subject box type " remove".
We apologize for your inconvenience.










From brianbr at together.net  Sun Nov  2 19:38:52 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:38:52 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711030332.WAA23276@mx02.together.net>



On 10/31/97 12:46 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>I had an engineer working for me who cheerfully used the company medical
>plan for all it was worth. If his kid had a cold, off to the doctor. If his
>wife felt feverish, off to the doctor. If he had an upset stomache after
>lunch (understandable considering the state of company food and
>burrito-vending machines in 1980), off to the doctor.  He may have paid $5
>per visit. Of course, he took off a lot of time to make these various treks
>to have his kids, himself, and his wife "treated" (given aspirin, told to
>drink plenty of fluids, whatever). A nice racket for the hospitals.

 This is one (of many) things my ex-wife and I used to disagree on ... 
she would want to haul the kid or herself off to the Emergency room 
everytime anything happened ... the idea of sleeping on it and seeing how 
it seemed in the morning was foreign to her; I can see that broken limbs 
getting sharp raps in head etc ... but every little sniffle ... of course 
premiums are up. For us, it was zero co-pay since between my retired 
military status and back then Raytheon medical coverage I never had to 
lay out a penny, when its that free eats easy to over-indulge ... and 
during those times I spent in the ER waiting room I saw many other doing 
the same thing.




Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

     "Home is where your books are" --	Kitty O'Neal







From brianbr at together.net  Sun Nov  2 19:46:59 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:46:59 +0800
Subject: Bell sentencing timed to coincide with raids on militia members?
Message-ID: <199711030342.WAA23471@mx02.together.net>



On 10/31/97 3:01 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>Get ready, folks. By the way, I'll be at the gun show at the Cow Palace in
>San Francisco on the weekend of November 8-9, probably Saturday, the 8th.
>Seems I'm running low on certain types of ammo, and I may want to pick up a
>couple more assault rifles before Swinestein succeeds in completely banning
>them.

 I used to think that way ... but then I thought, why pay all that money 
and walk the line of whatever Swinesteen et al come up with. Instead I 
have my deer rifles and a shotgun or two and ammo for both. The way this 
all is working now, I have more combat experience than 90% of the active 
duty military and most cops, and every day goes by more and more are 
retiring. If it ever comes down to that, I'll take down one or two of 
them with my deer rifle and help myself to their weapons and ammo ... 
also kind of makes sure I haven't set myself up to depend on an obsolete 
caliber ... if I am not good enough to take some of them down and take 
their weapons, no 300 nor 30,000 rounds for my very own Armalite is going 
to make any difference.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
   For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Everyone who lives dies; but not everyone who dies has lived"
    -- back of a 'No Fear' t-shirt







From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Sun Nov  2 21:05:38 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:05:38 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>



Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From pooh at efga.org  Sun Nov  2 21:21:29 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:21:29 +0800
Subject: Smartcards - Drivers Licenses in New Jersey
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103001906.0356e594@rboc.net>



The New Jersey legislature has announced that they will begin issuing
smartcards for driver's licenses.  The New license is reported to contain

 * biographical info
 * auto insurance info
 * medical insurance info
 * health info

The cards are also claimed to be capable of carrying

 * fingerprints
 * photographic images
 * health records
 * billing statements

The Capitol Report article and a Web based feedback forum can be found at
http://www.cpanj.com/legislative/drivers_license_1196.html




  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sun Nov  2 21:26:37 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:26:37 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971103161155.2405A-100000@dodinas>



On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

Its hard to tell.  However PGP has a number of advangers over S/MIME,
it is better supported by cilents, PGP signtures are smaller then S/MIME
sigs.  In addtion S/MIME sigs normaly have encoded in them a lot of
infomation about the user makeing it very difficalt to use via an anon
remailer.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. 
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Nov  2 23:53:03 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:53:03 +0800
Subject: the one Unbreakable crypto scheme.
Message-ID: <II3U8FPHjnZhca9XSBZfUg==@bureau42.ml.org>



/* Generic xor handler.

   With no args, xors stdin against 0xFF to stdout.  A single argument is a
   file to read xor-bytes out of.  Any zero in the xor-bytes array is treated
   as the end; if you need to xor against a string that *includes* zeros,
   you're on your own.

   *Hobbit*, 960208 */

#include <stdio.h>
#include <fcntl.h>

char buf[8192];
char bytes[256];
char * py;

/* do the xor, in place.  Uses global ptr "py" to maintain "bytes" state */
xorb (buf, len)
  char * buf;
  int len;
{
  register int x;
  register char * pb;

  pb = buf;
  x = len;
  while (x > 0) {
    *pb = (*pb ^ *py);
    pb++;
    py++;
    if (! *py)
      py = bytes;
    x--;
  }
} /* xorb */

/* blah */
main (argc, argv)
  int argc;
  char ** argv;
{
  register int x = 0;
  register int y;

/* manually preload; xor-with-0xFF is all too common */
  memset (bytes, 0, sizeof (bytes));
  bytes[0] = 0xff;

/* if file named in any arg, reload from that */
#ifdef O_BINARY				/* DOS shit... */
  x = setmode (0, O_BINARY);		/* make stdin raw */
  if (x < 0) {
    fprintf (stderr, "stdin binary setmode oops: %d\n", x);
    exit (1);
  }
  x = setmode (1, O_BINARY);		/* make stdout raw */
  if (x < 0) {
    fprintf (stderr, "stdout binary setmode oops: %d\n", x);
    exit (1);
  }
#endif /* O_BINARY */
  
  if (argv[1])
#ifdef O_BINARY
    x = open (argv[1], O_RDONLY | O_BINARY);
#else
    x = open (argv[1], O_RDONLY);
#endif
  if (x > 0) {
    read (x, bytes, 250);		/* nothin' fancy here */
    close (x);
  }
  py = bytes;
  x = 1;
  while (x > 0) {
    x = read (0, buf, sizeof (buf));
    if (x <= 0)
      break;
    xorb (buf, x);
    y = write (1, buf, x);
    if (y <= 0)
      exit (1);
  }
  exit (0);
}







From ryan at michonline.com  Mon Nov  3 00:07:59 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:07:59 +0800
Subject: PGP 50i Beta 8a for Unix.
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971103025727.13425A-100000@king>




I jsut went and got myself a copy of this.  It's frustratingly hard to get
to compile.  The source directories are all missing header files (filling
src/include with all the headers via symlinks seems to work) but other
files seem to be missing.  Is there a better distribution of this than the
mess on pgpi.com?

Ryan Anderson - PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
RSA in Perl: (Export violations for the lazy)
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`








From wabe at smart.net  Mon Nov  3 16:47:23 1997
From: wabe at smart.net (wabe)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:47:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
Message-ID: <01bce8d3$edc22b40$d17f61ce@dave>


THE FOLLOWING IS AN OPINION,
(this is a forged post anyway)

So I read Jodi's lawsuit as it is posted
on her web page.  I'll post some interesting
parts below.  Keep in mind that I'm not
a lawyer, nor do I play one in cyberspace...

Basically the lawsuit (supposably) is(was?) against
a school board in Florida where Jodi sent
her 3 children to middle school.

Jodi seeks mucho casho for emotional damages
she was inflicted by having to discover and
fight the sex-ed class.  Apparantly she originally
was one of the mothers who opted her children out,
but the school fumbled (or the child "forgot" to hand the
paper back in) and they took the class anyways.  After
one day, she yanked the kids out of school for a week,
and engaged on the legal battle we see here.  She also
seeks to shut down (or heavily amend) the sex ed class,
along with the newspaper part of a civics class, and
she wants more supervision of the children's internet
access.

As far as I can tell, oddly enough, the internet part
of the case is the only part with any real merit. (She
doesn't want her children using the internet at school to
see pornography while she isn't watching.)  That's reasonable,
and the school could have someone watching (or claim to)
to avoid it.

There's a lot of whining about the "secular humanism" of
the school which is entirely without merit and sounds foolish
in the context of a legal paper.

Selected interesting points are as follows:
(claimed as the school board's damaging sex ed class. . .)
  c) giving inaccurate and incomplete information about HIV/AIDS
transmission, by claiming students should not worry if their cut-free leg
was splashed with HIV positive blood;

  How innaccurate is this?  Do we have some "studies?"


  k) failing to emphasize abstinence from activity outside of marriage as
the expected standard for all school-age children and failing to teach the
benefits of monogamous hetero marriage;

This is CRAZY!  Not only does she want them to accept whatever she believes
as the "expected standard" but
she wants them to expound upon the glories of a boring sex life! :>

l) failing to emphasize that abstinence is a certain way to avoid
out-of-wedlock pregnancy, ly transmitted diseases, including acquired immune
deficiency syndrome (AIDS) and other associated health problems; abstinence
was only briefly mentioned and then ridiculed at length;

Not true! As claimed in her previous points (see 'bloody leg' above)

m) failing to respect the conscience and rights of parents and students;

respect is a hard thing to measure, and is often something EARNED.

  n) in addition, the opt out letter failed to fully and properly advise
parents of the nature and content of the lecture so that parents could
meaningfully decide to let their children opt out or attend the lecture;

Actually has some merit.

(Then the school board showed a laser disk purchased from the "homosexual
propagandizer" ABC which...)

c.) failing to promote an awareness of the benefits of abstinence, by
failing to equip students with abstinence decision-making techniques;

That last phase is just funny!

e.) promoting a secular humanist philosophy by teaching children that they
alone should decide when to become ly active;

hmmm....

(Now they have the GALL to buy some newspapers and provide them to the
children....these newspapers:)

a.) favoring, justifying, promoting, condoning and/or providing biased,
inaccurate and incomplete information about homo , by failing to discuss
adverse mental, physical and emotional consequences of engaging in homo
behavior and not discussing the changeability of orientation;

If they had advised the students that some of them could, if they wanted,
become homosexuals, would that
have been more proper?


  d.) failing to teach monogamous, hetero marriage as the expected standard
to prevent ly transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancy;

HAHAHA, isn't homosexual marriage a better way of avoiding pregnancy?



Then Jodi objects to some newspapers being shown in geography class which
contain an
"adult" advertisement section (aparantly)  Here are the whole of her
objections to this particular point:
  a.) providing inappropriate material as part of curriculum (one ad for an
adult video store invites customers to bring their wife, girlfriend,
boyfriend or all three);
  b.) providing material that does not promote core values;
  c.) providing material which does not promote the contributions made by
women to society, such as ads for sex-for-sale businesses;
  d.) failing to promote an awareness of the benefits of abstinence and the
consequences of teenage pregnancy;
  e.) failing to teach monogamous hetero marriage as the standard;
  f.) failing to teach respect for family and marriage;
  g.) failing to promote a moral society;
  h.) encouraging early activity of children;
  i.) contributing to the delinquency of minors by encouraging activity.

Those were very funny!  She is a comic in the classic Milk and Cheese sense!
I especially
loved c) which claims that ads for sex for sale businesses are contributions
made by women to society!
I wholeheartedly disagree!  How can she be sure the ads were placed and
created by WOMEN!?  Couldn't
a man have made the ads?

Other problems Jodi had with sex ed were:

a.) giving inaccurate, incomplete or biased information about masturbation,
by teaching there is no evidence that it is emotionally harmful, when there
is substantial evidence to the contrary;
  k.) failing to encourage respect for parents as authority figures by
telling children they can make decisions without consulting or relying on
parents' advice;

  l.) establishing a secular humanist philosophy by teaching, for example,
that children are in charge of their bodies and are free to make decisions
based on what they feel is the right thing to do at the time and by
excluding parents and other adults from decision-making processes;

Further explainations follow:

42. The actions of Defendant in paragraphs 25-28 , 30-32 and 34-40 were
outrageous, intentional and/or reckless and were intended to cause plaintiff
JODI HOFFMAN severe emotional distress and as a result of said acts,
Plaintiff suffered severe distress.
43. Plaintiff suffered an inability to sleep properly, met with the
publisher of the Miami Herald to ask that the ads be removed from the
schools, and suffered other emotional injury, loss and distress, became
anxious, worried about the safety and morals of her children as a result of
Defendant's conduct.


She then whines about the word "orientation" being added to the school's
policy of anti-discrimination
because "the undefined class known simply as " orientation" appears to
protect persons who could pose a threat to the health and safety of
students, impair the right of the school board to reject applications for
employment based on good cause and who, under 231.02 (1), may not be of good
moral character."

Among the many things she demands are:

(m.) Order that the school board institute a balanced comprehensive health
curricula, one that emphasizes abstinence until marriage and fidelity within
marriage,

  (5) Money damages for Defendant's intentional infliction of emotional
distress on Plaintiff parent and for the loss of educational opportunity to
Plaintiff's minor children.





Summery:

I WISH I could say that she was only going after the money.  In this case,
that would
be a severe case of moral improvement.  Specific phrases jump out of her
case ("failing to promote a moral society") that nail her down as a
Fundamentalist
Christian with an agenda, using the Law as one arm of her attack.  She ranks
up there
with those terrorists in Texas who filed liens against practically everyone,
in my opinion.




From Ghost at workline.com  Mon Nov  3 17:01:11 1997
From: Ghost at workline.com (Ghost at workline.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711040101.RAA12149@toad.com>


F <Ghost at workline.com>
R <cypherpunks at toad.com> (remote destination)
R <jlhoffm at ibm.net> (remote destination)
R <fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu> (remote destination)
X - Start
Received: by soi.hyperchat.com id 00e700 at Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:58:33 -700 (Mountain Standard Time)
Message-ID: <345E731B.12 at workline.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:58:03 -0500
From: Abstruse <abstruse at technologist.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
CC: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm at ibm.net>, fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
References: <199711032057.MAA08856 at k2.brigadoon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 01:48:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:48:38 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
Message-ID: <199711030925.KAA17872@basement.replay.com>



Anybody heard of syncrypt?  www.syncrypt.com

It is like pgp but has lots of cool features.  File wiping, group
encryption, automatic encryption of files put in certain directories.

Get this, hiding encrypted files in pictures!  Automatically.  It pulls
them back out again too.

Plus it has an interesting "20 questions" method for backing up your
passphrase.  If you forget your passphrase you have to answer 25 of 27
questions like "who was your favorite teacher" to get it back.

Bruce Schneier is working with them, so they should have good crypto.
It has blowfish, des and triple des, and idea.  The keys are el gamal.

Problem is the freeware is crippled to 10 encryptions (unlimited
decryptions).  $50 for full functions.

Is this the new pgp?  No gak or even cak in sight.

SynMonger






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Mon Nov  3 02:01:09 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:01:09 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971031120116.00c62d58@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971103015447.006e0abc@pop.sirius.com>



At 07:01 AM 10/31/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>
>Greg,
>
>What's your take on repeated delay in Jim's sentencing:
>

perhaps I'm just low on conspiracy juice this week, but I think that Kent's
suggestion that he's in the hospital is probably the best - his recent
letters/calls to Blanc mentioned a persistent staph infection. If he'd been
released, I expect that the docket would indicate that. (it's possible that
they've got a "phantom docket" which has parallel but different entries ..
but I doubt it.) 

I'm reluctant to wander down the "Is Jim a narc? Is Jim not a narc?" path
because it's too difficult to reach a dependable conclusion with the little
information available .. especially given that the feds may be trying to
make it look like he is, or isn't, or is but appears not to be, or
whatever. Too many people applying too much spin. My occam's razor thinks
he's in the jail ward of the local hospital, explaining why John got his
books back and why the sentencing hasn't happened.

If the feds wanted information from him, they've already got it .. and if
they're going to hold him until he testifies against co-conspirators, it's
going to take a lot longer than a continuation until mid-November. So I
doubt that's the reason for the delay.

And, to answer Tim's question re why he can't be sentenced immediately -
because that's not how it works in federal court. Federal defendants submit
to lengthy interviews with a probation officer, who then draws up a report
which summarizes the defendant's social/political/economic/pharmaceutical
background, lists the defendant's prior history of
education/crime/whatever, and so forth. The judge then imposes a sentence
based on the PSR (presentence report) and the guidelines range, which
creates a relatively narrow range of sentences matching a particular crime.
The idea is that the punishment should both be tailored to the defendant,
and be relatively standard across crimes of similar severity. More re
determinate sentencing at <http://www.ussc.gov>.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com






From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Mon Nov  3 02:04:53 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:04:53 +0800
Subject: A Legal Strategy
Message-ID: <d055dda10a1a6e5d60cbd7a5914bcac6@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Let's say you are James Joyce and you are writing "Ulysses" on your
nice little Linux machine.  Because you fear persecution, you use
encrypted virtual disks.

Because you are clever, you have ten such disks.  One contains your
drafts of "Ulysses", four contain harmless information, and five
contain noise.

The jack booted thugs kick down your door and drag you to jail.  The
Judge orders you to produce the pass phrases of all the disks or be
penalized for contempt of court.

Now, you are in an interesting situation.  You can't give the
passwords for half of the disks, but you are unable to prove this.
This means you have nothing to gain by giving the pass phrase to the
"Ulysses" disk - you will always be seen as holding out.  Even if you
convince the Judge that some of the disks are noise, you have no
reason not to include the "Ulysses" disk in this set.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNF1945aWtjSmRH/5AQGEMQf/Rv6ZMLV/Jw9lnKa2p9QjDd3L3oukDfL7
X/WEA4MpNJ80AHLfL9yro58iElJe8hSN0Ld6T56Cusw32numtO10du553ACTzeWP
6ktMokhKfsHFbmzbGu2U/ajlymEU3CwcD8sBkEJlCJ6J1E57jTaPpaxn6dPjak9p
EmSQD3LoI9C/soacZOJPbNoMu2WA9Xb+tQ+RDfwU2jkZnqjdjLt0WKz2GpiMA3EY
fQ2p69U0nKICyS/r7l8hM5aVMihxuexY7w1BNCKVSKIjGO+K0Niqz/APj782hKfy
3O1LHOmxcqVtxOTIZ9c1P8mSYpN/E4My8vcen9bp8a5GBzkIeVdQTQ==
=RpFf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Nov  3 02:26:28 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:26:28 +0800
Subject: One Time Pads (Real Ones!)
Message-ID: <199711031002.CAA26848@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
exportable.

I've been thinking about how practical they are.

One diskette holds about 150 messages.  The people we trust tend to be
people we communicate with a lot.  An exchange of one box of diskettes
should last a long time in most cases.

The first 128 bits of the pad can be used as a key to identify it.
This the recipient can figure out how to decode it by hunting through
his or her key collection for the one that matches.

When keys are exchanged, additional information can be exchanged and
associated with each key.  Length, for example.  This means no length
fields are needed because it can be recovered from the key itself.
There are probably more examples.

One time pads are self authenticating.

For increased security, the use of a double one time pad is a good
idea.  Both correspondents generate key sets.  The message is
encrypted using one key from each key set.  Again, no identifying
information is needed, because the recipient can look for pairs of
keys that work.

If these key sets are exchanged through separate secure channels, they
will be especially hard to compromise.

Also, each user can be confident that the message is secure with
regard to key material if they have generated the keys themselves.

Keys should be destroyed immediately after use.  This means that the
only time the rubber hose attack is effective is during message
transit.

Key destruction is a hard problem, though, because it is difficult to
be confident that the key has been completely erased from a disk.  Use
of diskettes improves the situation.  Other media might be better,
such as static memory.

There is no good reason not to wrap one time pads in other encryption
protocols.  It is hard, maybe impossible for some algorithms, to crack
a message when the contents have the appearance of noise.  This means
that it is hard to tell who is using one time pads and when they are
doing it.  Naturally, the user will send many messages which consist
of noise, indistinguishable from a one time pad.  This gives the user
plausible deniability, especially if the practice is common.

If the wrapper encryption protocol has not been compromised at the
time of use, it has the pleasing result that it buys time.  Should the
message be recorded and filed on tape at Ft. Meade, and the encryption
protocol broken ten years later, the user will have a very difficult
time producing the key material.

Key generation is an inadequately solved problem right now.  There are
chips which generate streams of random bits, but it is impossible to
tell if they have been compromised.  A home brew hardware based random
number generator with a serial interface is probably the best way to
go.  The output of this device could be XORed with other source of
randomness to increase confidence.

One time pads seem practical to me.

Comments?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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YkAWZs48knTFgtAS0sv5IRrKparKaKdgAQISscBSuW5YXGi9WJCA2/3+2/+iwvrK
1tIoEDF+fYaq6/a2yiyI4PVZ8qPMpyLayZ3K89P8N8zzuQSMS6pB7yOf4waOufcF
6nAmcVG8/O4BddID15XiKbdc7QSpHKK2R3LlwrS4ZQBHyhYvC5Quo41SHNiWIGjO
N6zMkBKuDXEpjmnX9O1LRelT7hEMX0ss6b4ZTmFw39NXwDwgFahP+C2/Zw+Kt0Je
+/PNDJXWWQDWovVrCW2yKmpKeTPgxTJ1R4aEpt2CBwdQlMqVwpVrAg==
=O5oZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov  3 03:06:15 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:06:15 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199711030925.KAA17872@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <2144e913358bc86168058feec1461cc7@anon.efga.org>



Anonymous  <nobody at REPLAY.COM> writes:

> Anybody heard of syncrypt?  www.syncrypt.com

> It is like pgp but has lots of cool features.  File wiping, group
> encryption, automatic encryption of files put in certain directories.

Am I supposed to be impressed?  They only support the proprietary
products of a company supporting draconian gun controls.






From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Nov  3 03:37:02 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:37:02 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971103025934.006dd7a0@cnw.com>



Greg Broiles wrote:

>perhaps I'm just low on conspiracy juice this week, but I think that Kent's
>suggestion that he's in the hospital is probably the best - his recent
>letters/calls to Blanc mentioned a persistent staph infection. 

Ach! Greg, that was supposed to be a "secret", since Jim said he didn't
want publicity over his case and I cheated by letting John post it on his
web site.   Although, it's not like most everyone suspected, hmh.

But anyway, what do you mean by saying that John's books were returned to him?
I sent a letter to Jim in the mail this past Saturday, encouraging him to
call me again and update me on his situation and on the sentencing date.
So I'll be waiting and will pass the info on to John.
    ..
Blanc






From declan at well.com  Mon Nov  3 03:45:10 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:45:10 +0800
Subject: Washington Times: "FCC wants to extend V chip to computers"
Message-ID: <v03007800b0836554aece@[204.254.21.242]>



Front page:

"Not content to monitor the progrom on your television set, the FCC now
wants to install a vchip in your personal computer -- a move that could
extend the agency's reach into cyberspace...

"Lawmakers said the vchip law was intended only for TV sets..."

"Some question whether this will lead to FCC regulation of the Internet..."

Dave Banisar, Rep. Tauzin, Ed Black make appearances.

-Declan







From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Nov  3 03:59:20 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:59:20 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
Message-ID: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>Monty Cantsin writes:
>> The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
>> odd.  
>
>I had a go at doing something with it (I'll let you know when I get
>it to work) -- I had the damnest job figuring out what was going on.
>The problem I found with understanding it were all of the nested
>functions called through vectors of functions and handler functions.
>Makes it hard to inspect what will happen without running the code
>under a debugger -- lots control flow is decided at run time.

So in other words, even though we have the source code we don't really
have confidence that we can tell what it is doing.

Even though the source code is available, I don't think it has been
studied all that carefully.  For example, hardly anybody knew that the
PGP 5.0 source had CAK features lurking in it.  Or, remember that bug
with the random number generator?  As I recall (i.e., feel free to
correct me), it was in Colin Plumb's code and he found it himself.
This would imply that it got by whoever went over the code when it was
released.  Not reassuring.

C is a big part of the problem.  Also, PGP was originally designed to
operate on some fairly slow machines and they tried very hard to
optimize the hell out of it.  Now, however, cycles are a lot cheaper.
I think we should give up speed for clarity.  Slow code that we can
really trust is better.

And, the PGP code does a bunch of careful things which complicate it
like burning the stack all the time.  In my judgement, this is
misplaced.  If you don't trust the platform you are using you can't
fix it in your encryption code.

>> We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit that
>> it will be completely unencumbered.
>
>Sounds maybe worth doing.

It's at least worth talking about.  Hashing out the design is a good
exercise and it can inspire other people when they are designing their
own crypto systems.

>> It also gives us the opportunity to write it in a language other than
>> C, one which truly supports encapsulation.  C code is hard to verify
>> with great confidence because it is possible to obfuscate it and
>> introduce security holes.  This means that C requires one to trust the
>> authors to a greater extent than is desirable.
>
>Some C programmers do have fun writing obfuscated chicken scratchings,
>but you _can_ write C code optimised for readability.

What's really bad is that any part of the code can betray the rest.
Let's say you had somebody who was really very good who wanted to
weaken things.  All he or she has to do is have a little obfuscated
code someplace that undermines the majority of nicely designed and
implemented C code.

A truly encapsulated language is a lot easier to verify because if
none of the magic functions exist in the code (easy to check), you can
be confident that when you have verified one piece of code that the
other pieces can't interfere.

>What language did you have in mind?  modula-3?  iso-pascal/borland
>pascal?

Hadn't thought of Modula-3, but that is an excellent idea.  Java would
be a candidate, although performance is an issue.  There's been some
good buzz around about Ada.  It might perform well and it's here to
stay.  Is Modula-3 being used in any serious way by anybody?  If it
is, let's consider it.  (I think there is a Modula-3 -> C compiler out
there someplace, which means it's totally portable.)

A good language choice would probably save a lot of time.

>> The whole issue of compatibility is an interesting one.  Would it be a
>> good idea to have a cryptographic system which was completely
>> incompatible with PGP, given the Big Brother risk?
>
>Theoretically perhaps, however I'm not sure a system will get very far
>unless it can automatically interoperate with pgp2.x and 5.x.

It would be nice to just shed the PGP baggage for the moment and think
about how we would do a system from scratch for our own uses.

Ultimately, this system could reside in an application which also
speaks PGP.  Or, it could just be its own thing.

>You could build something which did the right thing automatically
>based on public key types:
>
>hypothetical cpunks mail system (HCMS)

We should use the acronym CMR.  (Cypherpunk Message Remodel?
Suggestions invited.)

>HCMS -> pgp2.x   use RSA/MD5/IDEA and pgp2.x message formats
>HCMS -> pgp5.x   use DSA/EG/3DES/SHA1 and pgp5.x message formats
>HCMS -> HCMS     use whatever goodies you want, stego, mixmaster, etc.

CMR nee HCMS should be an independent system.  The mail system you are
using should decide whether to use it or some other system depending
on the correspondent.

While it may seem crazy to toss compatibility, it has some advantages.
For instance, the only people who will use it are the hardcore types.
I like the idea of an exclusive crypto system that only cool people
who are fairly with it use.

What do you think about mandating a key size?  I like the idea that
use of the protocol communicates "I am very serious about my privacy."
It's also slightly cripple resistant.  (And, were I to consider mass
market concerns which I am not, I would say that it makes it easier
for the user to make the right choice.)

How about finding a way to eliminate indicators?  It's nice not to
leak any information at all.  It also makes super-encryption stronger.
If each encrypted layer looks like noise, the total key size is the
sum of the bits of each layer.

One way to eliminate indicators is through the prior agreement of the
meaning of random bits.  In effect, you can say "when you see
0x234B4D234F, it means, outside layer RSA/IDEA, middle layer
3DES/SHA1, and inner layer the Captain Crunch decoder ring."  This
information can be exchanged at the time of key authentication,
securely, by telling your correspondent how you are encrypting
everything.  Later, you can send more random bits when the tank starts
getting low.

Super-encryption is something we should do more of.  Let's say we
believe, conservatively, that any particular cipher we are using has a
10% chance of falling in a particular year.  In ten years, that's a
35% chance of compromise.  But if three different ciphers are used,
there is only a 4% chance that it will fall in a decade.

Super-encryption has been unpopular because it takes too long.
However, if you are using a modern OS, even if it takes five minutes
running in the background it's just not a big deal.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to break out authentication from
the communication protocol.  Strictly speaking they are not the same
thing.  Both programs can be called by the same message composition
program.  This naturally leads to using separate communications and
authentication keys.

I am not fond of PGP's signature design.  The "BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE"
stuff clutters things up.  How about a one line signature with a
previous character count?  Note that this wraps beautifully without
modifying the message itself.  It's unobtrusive.

ASCII armor also sets off alarms with me, but I'm not sure exactly how
to solve this problem.  It seems right to define protocols in terms of
full 8 bit bytes.  Perhaps just uuencoding encrypted messages is the
way to go?

For authentication, it would probably be okay to define an ASCII mode.

I think key management is good to think of as a separate application.
The right way to do this isn't clear, yet.  The Web of Trust is a neat
idea, but I think the concept is flawed because you are unlikely to
tell something sensitive to somebody you wouldn't (or couldn't)
authenticate yourself.  Ultimately it relies on things like driver's
licenses issued by Big Brother, which is terrible.

>> Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
>> to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
>> conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
>> cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
>> completely economical.
>
>This is more secure I agree.  The real kicker with this problem is
>people who turn on encrypt to self -- I don't want messages with
>encrypt to self (an extra door into the message) on them in my
>mailbox, nor coming over the wire headed to me.
>
>You can see the reason for multiple recipient though -- it's too ease
>integration into mailers -- you can process the message and give it
>back to the mailer, and then it can still send the message To: x, y;
>Cc: z.

But this is just bad design if you care about security in a serious
way.  Even assuming you have to reveal who you are sending the message
to, why reveal that three messages are related to each other?

This is yet another mass market issue.  If we were to do it the right
way, all the mail header fields would be contained inside the
encryption envelope.

>Doing away with multiple crypto recipient risk is more an issue of MUA
>integration than rabid conservation of bits.

I'll buy that.

>> So, perhaps a protocol which does not support anything more than one
>> encryption key per message would be a good idea.
>
>You don't have to use it.  I tend not to.  I never use encrypt to
>self, and I get annoyed with people who send me messages encrypt to
>themselves, and very rarely do I use Cc on encrypted messages.

If the protocol doesn't accept multiple keys for a message it is
slightly CAK/GAK resistent.  And, it's a nice statement of intent.
It's also nice to have tools which help you to behave securely without
carefully thinking about it when you are using them.

>> And, I wonder if compression doesn't actually weaken security?  Let's
>> say I forward a known message with some commentary.  Since the
>> compression tables will be known, it seems like the increased size of
>> the message could provide some interesting information about the
>> preceding commentary.  All by itself, this probably doesn't matter,
>> but combined with other information it might result in a breach.  In
>> any event, that which is ambiguous should be eliminated.
>
>I don't understand this comment.

Let's say it is known with high probability that I am forwarding a
particular message with some unknown prefacing comments.  It seems to
me that (possibly) some information is be revealed by the size of
the compressed encrypted text.

That is, the known message will compress to a different size depending
on your prefacing comments.

For example, if I use lots of words that are in the known message, it
will compress very well.  The result will be significantly smaller
than if I use words that never appear in the known message.  This
might not be a problem, but I don't like "mights".

Also, I like things which are really orthogonal.  There's no
particular reason for the compression to be part of an encryption
program, if you use it at all.

>One thing that some people don't realise is that the plaintext gets
>mixed into the random pool as an additional source of entropy.  In
>automated environments (lots of MUAs which set +batchmode), this is
>all the entropy you'll get -- except for the original key presses to
>generate the key, and a small bit of entropy from the system clock.
>
>It's fairly good normally because the way entropy is mixed in is a one
>way function of the randseed.bin based on IDEA.  To make use of this
>an attacker would need a copy of your randseed.bin before you sent the
>target message, and to have suspicions of what the message is.  Even
>after a few known messages it would still likely be possible to
>attack, because the entropy added by the clock is partly predictable
>from the message headers Date: field, and because it isn't that much
>entropy each time.

The randseed.bin file has always bothered me.  What we really want is
some good sources of entropy in which we have tremendous confidence.

Also, if you signed the message the Date: field won't be needed.  This
is bad design, in my opinion.  A signature and a time stamp are two
different things.  For instance, I would prefer not to time stamp my
messages as it reveals the state of my clock and the transit time of
the messages I send.

>> It would also be nice if the messages were padded to predetermined
>> sizes, say 10K, 20K, 40K, etc.  (Once compression is eliminated this
>> is less of an issue.)
>
>It would be nice to have a system where you send 100k and receive 100k
>per day regardless.  Say in 10 10k packets which get poured into a
>mixmaster node.

Yes, this would be good.  Although, I would think of this as being on
a higher level than the encryption program itself.  Probably we want
an entire communications management program which tracks everything
you've sent and analyzes your activity for weaknesses.

>> How about a one time pad mode?  One time pads are more practical than
>> widely believed.  Many things we talk about we *do* want to keep quiet
>> for the rest of our natural lives.  
>
>Right.
>
>The problem with this is that you need random numbers.  How do you
>generate them?

You only need to generate keys once in awhile.  This means that you
can go to some trouble when doing it.  For instance, you might have
some hardware which is not routinely connected to your machine.

>If you use PGP's random pool, one suspects that if IDEA becomes
>attackable at some point in the future the random pool will start to
>look more like a predictable PRNG to the attacker.
>
>I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
>more suspect.

Well, neither of these would be good for a one time pad, of course.
It would be neat to have, say, three sources of hardware randomness
and then XOR the result with the above pseudo random output.

It's hard to recognize non-randomness, so some overkill is good
practice.

BTW, it would be nice if PGP or CMR/HCMS would let you supply bits of
entropy by hand.  It takes awhile to generate 128 bits by hand, but
for some things it would be worth it.

>> It's clear that going the corporate route has to be handled with some
>> care.  Given the political implications, investors have certain risks.
>> 
>> Also, many people seem to switch into a different mode as soon as they
>> have a company.  Anything which they perceive as increasing their
>> profits becomes good.  PGP, Inc. has gone this way, we've seen First
>> Virtual do some unsavory things, 
>
>What did FV do?  I know they don't use encryption, and Nathaniel
>Borenstein wrote a few hype-hype articles about the _gasp_ newly
>discovered security danger of "key board sniffers".

The hype article was what I had in mind.  I doubt very much that
Borenstein would ever have been involved with such a thing outside a
corporation.  It seems to have a bad effect on some people.

The problem is, you don't always know where that bad effect stops once
you've noticed it.

>> and even good old C2 has made a few people uncomfortable.
>
>Only thing slightly negative C2 did was to make a dubious decision in
>handling of Mr Nemesis's fabricated claims about stronghold flaws.
>C2 still rocks, though right?

Comme ci, comme ca.  The libel suit business was uncool.  Also, there
was a press release relating to one of the cracks which was somewhat
misleading, I thought.  C2 has shown some symptoms of institutional
paranoia, which is bad.  Sameer's comments along the lines of "this
isn't some cypherpunk hobby" are also not reassuring.  All of these
things arise from being in a corporation.

The problem is that I'm not tapping their phones.  I don't really know
what they are thinking or doing.  When something happens that is
troubling, it's hard to restore trust.  I don't give C2 five stars.

That said, C2 has done some very good things.  People seem to like
Stronghold a lot.  It really is a secure product.  They publish their
source code.  I do like what they have to say in many of their press
releases and they are getting certain ideas into the mainstream.  (The
Forbes article, for instance.)

Sameer's one line comment "sell code" had a lot of influence on me,
too.

>> It doesn't have to be this way, of course.  Look at Comsec Partners.
>> We don't see any "conversation recovery", lying press releases, or any
>> other nonsense from them, just a beautiful product.
>
>Quite so.  C2 hasn't got "web traffic recovery" either :-)

No kidding.  Yes, C2 is miles above PGP, Inc. in my book.

But, Comsec gets the five stars.  They have never done anything or
said anything that gave me less than complete confidence.

>> What I like about selling software is that you could actually make
>> good living by doing the right thing.  And, after all, if you've spent
>> six months writing something, why shouldn't the users kick in a little
>> money instead of freeloading?  I would like to see more crypto users
>> in the habit of paying for tools and in the habit starting security
>> companies.
>
>New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
>from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.

The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
it clear from day one that it is not free software.  If you want to
run it, you should buy it.  (The problem with share ware is that people
get used to "borrowing" it.)

This should work well.  Cryptoanarchists, in my experience, have
pretty high integrity.  Some people will pirate, true, but that's
life.  Ironically, people who honestly discuss their skepticism of
intellectual property laws are probably less likely to pirate.

>If we get a real eternity service going (not the poor imitation perl
>script up now where all traffic goes through a server unless you
>install it locally) software copyright could become a thing of the
>past :-)
>
>Trust might be one way to go, rely on good will.  Or paying for
>technical support.  Or mixmaster, or DC net packet delivery postage
>charges.

These are good ideas.

You know, it would be cool to define a software architecture for
remailer software.  Different remailers have different properties and
different strategies.  They may continue to differentiate.

When you decided to trust a particular remailer, it could give you a
module of code with a standard external interface which prepares
messages for that particular remailer.

Putting your idea another way, the code is "free" but the remailers
cost money.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov  3 04:08:20 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:08:20 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <1d429080fd14348402d587992a55f441@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>> Fortunately some of these "good" lawyers already exist at the Institute for 
>> Justice.  Basically, they are a libertarian version of the ACLU.  They've 
>> accomplished some good things and deserve the support (read $$$) of 
>> freedom-minded individuals everywhere.  (note: I'm not connected with them
>> in any way; just letting the cypherpunk community know about an organization
>> in sync with our views)
>> 
>>  "If you seek a courtroom champion for individual liberty, free market
>>   solutions, and limited government, look only as far as the Institute
>>   for Justice.  When politicians pass sweepingly intrusive laws and
>>   bureaucrats build their empires of paperwork and power, only the
>>   Institute for Justice brings them to account in court."
>>   -- http://www.InstituteforJustice.org/
>
>Thanks, I'll check them out as I am unaware of their position.

I should add that they haven't done anything in the field of cryptographic 
or technology issues, but have focused most of their efforts on protecting 
small entrepreneurs from overly zealous government agencies, particularly on 
the local level.  One item I found of particular interest was a report they 
published in July 1996 about the restrictive barriers New York City has 
erected to prevent entrepreneurship (i.e., expensive/restrictive licensing 
fees, tough penalties for doing business without the required permits, 
etc.).  An earlier post on this list referred to NYC as a cesspool of 
socialism.  There is truth to this statement.  Socialist politicians tend 
to punish those who help themselves, all for the public good of course.

[snip] 
>> Bill Benson has done some extensive research (his book is called The Law 
>> That Never Was) regarding the 16th Amendment (the so-called Income Tax 
>> Amendment) and how it was ratified.  According to the information he has 
>> uncovered through exhaustive research in D.C. and all of the state capitals 
>> of the then 48 states, the 16th Amendment was never ratified by 3/4ths of 
>> the states. (see http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html for more info)
>> 
>> Friends of mine have spoken to Mr. Benson about this, and he says that the 
>> courts won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  He even sells a package (or at 
>> least he was selling it back in 1995) of legal information about the 
>> non-ratification of the 16th that can be used as a defense in an income tax 
>> case.  According to Mr. Benson (in 1995), each of the cases was dropped when 
>> the defense made it clear they were going to argue their defense based on 
>> this point.
>> 
>> I understand that folks in the "patriot" movement have tried to take this to 
>> the Supreme Court without success.  The Court refused to hear it.
>> 
>> Assuming Mr. Benson's research is accurate and legitimate, the 16th didn't 
>> even come close to being ratified and is truly a Law That Never Was.  Think 
>> about that next April 15th...the IRS's "lawful" authority is based upon a
>> legal fiction.  That's why it's called >voluntary< compliance.
>
>Actualy, his research is one of the reasons that I am so interested in an
>actual lawsuit.
>
>What if somebody were to go for several years with no contact at all with
>the IRS, and no intention of making contact. Then when approached that
>person makes enough noise to guarantee that they will be going to court.

Funny you should mention this.  A few folks have this very intention. :-)

>What would it then take to bush-whack the beggars? What is the absolute last
>point that your defence must be revealed prior to your presenting your case
>to the jury? 

I'm not following the wording of this last question.  Could you clarify?

>             The reason I use the first person is because to me it seems
>critical that no lawyer is actualy used in the defence. As I understand it,
>and I ain't no lawyer, there are some actions that a defendent may do if
>representing themselves that lawyers are prohibited from doing. Among them
>is stating the obvious fact, if the jurors don't believe the law is just
>they may refuse to find for that reason. If the Constitution and the actual
>record of votes in concert with the general feeling of excess regarding this
>matter doesn't prove the case, what will?

That's exactly the point.  And that, I believe, is why the Supreme Court --
or any court for that matter -- will not go near this issue.  It is the
pivotal point that would collapse the whole house of cards that is the
Income Tax.  The feds have a huge vested interest in keeping the system
going as long as they can (Y2K bugs and all) and this issue is a
veritable hornets' nest.

Nerthus

p.s.  For those of you keeping tabs on nyms, this is the last time I will
include my public key in the body of my email.

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

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EL/Dl0D9qn1NRPiVwA==
=8W8j
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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=osod
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From lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de  Mon Nov  3 04:22:59 1997
From: lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:22:59 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711030925.KAA17872@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <slrn65rg8t.mv.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>



* Anonymous wrote:
>Is this the new pgp?  No gak or even cak in sight.

No source no security.






From lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de  Mon Nov  3 04:26:54 1997
From: lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:26:54 +0800
Subject: GAK for PGP 2.6.2
In-Reply-To: <199710301935.UAA16086@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <slrn65rgf4.mv.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>



* Anonymous wrote:
>Here's a patch to PGP 2.6.2 to force it to encrypt all messages to the
>FBI key.

Once again. Implement it into at least 60% existing implementation spread
out. Then come back.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 04:47:07 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:47:07 +0800
Subject: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
Message-ID: <199711031235.NAA08077@basement.replay.com>



Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
>> > If so, then burn in hell, Nazi scum-sucking weasel!
>> >
>> Ditto for Paul Pomes and Gary Burnore.
>
>I'm familiar with the role of Gary Burnore <gburnore at netcom.com> and that
>of his DataBasix associates Belinda Bryan <eridani at ix.netcom.com> and Billy
>McClatchie (aka "Wotan") <wmcclatc at primenet.com> in getting the Mailmasher
>and Huge Cajones remailers shut down.  Jeff Burchell posted a public
>expose' of their harassment to Usenet back in June, apparently catching the
>DataBasix folks off-guard.  But what's the story with Paul Pomes?  What has
>he done?

Paul Pomes was complaining about Jeff Burchell's huge cajones remailer to Jeff
Burchell's upstream and employers about the same time the rest of the Databasix
gang was doing it.  Paul Pomes appears to be a part of the Databasix gang.

>Perhaps the best thing that can be done with people like Burnore is to put
>together an FAQ about their tactics, similar to what his "fans" have done
>for the "Rev." Steve Winter.  Then when Burnore tries to stir up trouble by
>first fabricating anonymous "abuse" and then demanding that it either be
>stopped and the culprit(s) identified (knowing in advance that's
>impossible), or else that the remailer be shut down, someone can forward
>that FAQ to the remailer's upstream provider, or whoever is being pressured
>to pull the plug.  And if Paul Pomes engages in the same dishonest tactics,
>that needs to be done with him as well.

Gary Burnore had a mongo page at http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html.
So did Paul Pomes, Belinda Bryan, and the rest of the Databasix gang.
Too bad it's down for now, but it'll be back.






From loans at xitau.de  Mon Nov  3 21:00:46 1997
From: loans at xitau.de (loans at xitau.de)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:00:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Business Loans For You
Message-ID: <199711040443.UAA07994@post-office.nevada.edu>



Do you need to increase profits in your business?
Do you need venture capital to get you there?
Are you frustrated with your bank turning you down
for the capital your business needs to grow?  Be frustrated
no more.  Zion Worldwide can put you in touch with
hundreds of offshore investors waiting to invest in a
viable business just like yours.

What Is An Offshore Investor?

An offshore investor may be an offshore bank or a group of
offshore lenders looking to invest in and to lend money to
viable business enterprises both in the United States and
elsewhere around the world.

Why Not My Own Bank?

U.S. federal banking law permits American banks to tie up
a lot of their money in overhead expenses and advertising
costs.  Which means that American banks have less money
to lend out to their customers (the ones who gave the banks
their money in the first place!).  Offshore banks, on the other
hand, are required by offshore banking rules and regulations
to lend more of their customer's money to, you guessed it,
their customers.  And groups of offshore lenders (often referred
to as 'conglomerates'), are not necessarily restricted  to the
number or type of businesses that they can invest in, as long
as these businesses are viable and show potential for future growth and profit.

How Do I Take Advantage Of These Offshore Lending Opportunities?

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Zion Worldwide receives a brokerage fee from our offshore lenders
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Can I Apply?

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AnyThing Else?

Nope, except 'Apply Today'
  





From whgiii at invweb.net  Mon Nov  3 06:37:06 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:37:06 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199711031419.JAA11804@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971103044957.24885.qmail at hotmail.com>, on 11/02/97 
   at 08:49 PM, "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011 at hotmail.com> said:

>Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?


No it is not!

S/MIME specs require support for weak RC2/40 encryption. This is not
secure!!! Add to this the fact that to date no S/MIME vendor has ever
released their crypto source code. I for one would not trust Net$cape or
Micro$oft to secure an outhouse let alone my communications. They have
shown their incompentence in this area time and time again.

Weak Crypto = No Security
No Source   = No Security


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNF3c7I9Co1n+aLhhAQGtrQP/UoYnM5FpOfu2ytg5K3jGpz2i5t7x/K1+
MGSvPIMaPkrwkfRjFz3rTg8fRrUy0d4eG1s41DhNJIJ4EJZU3r2pHGTPJkjtr4Hr
7io3DDVjYyr5h+ssHED2xHMLySi2h5ZSQuraZm5/qWeDDjCxgWPxzEaD53ui+SSz
PrcexIJWb/E=
=fK4Z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Nov  3 07:09:09 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:09:09 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199711031450.GAA10370@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias at alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster at remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer at replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer at cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config at nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix at squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config at weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman at cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer at anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config at anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer at bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer at neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa at weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain at notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config at anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer at replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer at neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Mon Nov  3 07:53:40 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:53:40 +0800
Subject: Testing headers, ignore
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103154526.007a1390@pop3.demon.co.uk>




Test sent at 3:45pm 3/11/97 from c12


	          Paul Bradley	
            Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 08:35:46 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:35:46 +0800
Subject: FUD Trivia -- Sex, Bells, 'a'nd...  / [Fwd: Sampler: November 3]Sampler: November 3
Message-ID: <345DDDE1.8E6@dev.null>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 667
URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/19971104/44544a51/attachment.mht>

From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Mon Nov  3 08:51:54 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:51:54 +0800
Subject: One Time Pads (Real Ones!)
In-Reply-To: <199711031002.CAA26848@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199711031646.LAA02843@upaya.multiverse.com>



Mix writes:

: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
: 
: One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
: forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
: exportable.

If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
EAR.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From kelsey at plnet.net  Mon Nov  3 09:07:21 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:07:21 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711031657.KAA08353@email.plnet.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: Cypherpunks ## Date: 11/01/97 ##
  Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy ]

>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:24:39 -0700
>From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
>Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy

>There are interesting protocols which can be used to skirt
>statist laws about insurance. A la carte insurance, for
>specific illnesses, is one of the best examples. Thus, a
>heterosexual male who doesn't use IV needles can "opt out"
>of coverage for AIDS-related treatments, thus transferring
>the effective cost to those most worthy.

I can see practical problems with this (like finding out
that the fine print on page 248 of my insurance contract
turns out not to cover dog bites that occur on Thursdays),
but it's really just letting customers buy only what they
want.

>This has similarities to crypto protocols. And anonymity. To
>wit, it is possible to arrange anonymous blood tests for
>various conditions. So, Alice arranges a distributed set of
>such tests, perhaps at multiple labs. When she finds she has
>no preconditions or precursors for Diseases A, B, C, and D,
>she opts out of being covered for these diseases.

One problem with this is that, if it becomes widespread,
nobody will ever buy insurance for these diseases unless
they have it or probably will get it.  This kind-of defeats
the point of having insurance, which is to protect yourself
from low probability high cost things happening.  That is,
before I've taken the test for genetic disease X, my best
estimate of the probability that I will test positive is
very low.  Once I have taken it, I know the result.  If I
sign up for a-la-carte insurance for this disease, the
insurance company effectively knows I must have tested
positive for a predisposition to it, and so either won't
give me insurance, or will give me insurance only at an
extremely high rate (corresponding to a 1/10 chance of
getting the disease, rather than a 1/1,000,000 chance).

On the other hand, information isn't free--I have to spend
some money for each of the hundreds of genetic tests
available.  There may be a profitable business in providing
a battery of genetic tests for a large up-front fee, in a
sort-of inverse-lottery scheme--if you get unlucky enough to
have one or more of these disease precursors, we pay your
insurance costs, or at least give you a big bundle of money
to spend as you will.  This is subject to various kinds of
abuse (if you know you're predisposed to get some disease,
you have a strong incentive to enter the ``lottery''), but
it still might work.

>--Tim May

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNF1ZdEHx57Ag8goBAQFZsQQA7NGzgc39WbyB8eACZN71wrBwOdapExNn
fvn1aEFeHoLWZnHIcLHwzSuCiJ22I9kGK8Co88fDfjDebb+kzHj9oO4xpfMecHLr
pjvKWfEDOnv5th6hxCmzKrA6OpuMqYgtvX9USRuO1oLckjX4mTc6jvEp6ZBD96vB
uWvXhj1bPUM=
=Vc/C
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 09:14:45 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:14:45 +0800
Subject: Washington Times: "FCC wants to extend V chip to computers"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0836554aece@[204.254.21.242]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b083a50bf033@[207.167.93.63]>



At 4:34 AM -0700 11/3/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Front page:
>
>"Not content to monitor the progrom on your television set, the FCC now

Progrom?

This could mean either "program" or "pogrom."

Or both. So "progrom" is apt. Declan has coined a neologism.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Mon Nov  3 09:35:05 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:35:05 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <f3109104b3eeef55881629c96a224028@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Minty Cuntskin (Sorry Monty, I couldn't resist ;-) wrote: 
>The producers of the show certainly know that there are terrorist
>elements and psychopaths who would be watching.  They know that these
>people will be turned on by the imagery of a BATF agent being brutally
>murdered.  They could have told the same story using different
>imagery.  Instead of using graphic violence, they could have expressed
>the idea of the BATF agent getting killed with a heartrending scene of
>his wife getting the phone call.  That certainly would not have been
>inflammatory.
>
>But they didn't.  The opted to go with a glorification of the act.
>Why?  Incompetence won't wash - anybody getting to national TV has
>spent years in the business and is a total pro.  They know what effect
>they are having.

True.  I think the majority of the Hollywood community is on our side
in this one.  Folks likes Clint Eastwood have made a sincere effort to
expose the BATFucks for the thugs they are.  Some of you may recall
that Clint has become a vocal critic of the seige at Waco and spoken
out against it on several occasions.

>They glorified this act of violence to encourage others to do the
>same.  Where is the FBI?  Why isn't anybody doing anything?  If the
>life of only one BATF agent is spared, it will be worthwhile!  Think
>of his poor wife and kids.

Yes, imagine having to be related to such a creep.

Tim May wrote:
>>Ah, what has the world come to?
>
>Remailers?  ;-)

Though not a panacea, remailers do create some interesting possibilities
for the freedom of expression.

Nerthus


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNF1BiuFWwZe05jcJAQGGmgf7BS7N+fJ9M24l2S9rQ92iU3+/W5/K3AP2
sMdGoOKhsbKYPGhjiH4QjBw1cKWLf+99WqwDzcF+Z662zfElhShZS46TOaboxtof
B4QukJGKDws0Hqf5ixG7+H6SqEE0wyjYWMX19o204JJNIvS8dgg0egXzZiJFu6JM
aT7NS26jMXl/BAfAz73a3sWMiJ6Td92El05X2Keknblswf4WfrSCPOl1uBefLNzv
jE86NY51A2htaQO2mIa6ed1kdBG7GRhyOAw+gwRIAi3E6F7+ORJwMLmMi0lR8LSz
f+AqJDkV+INgwHj5algunSACrIkfRdEnMNjPwImFoBNPl7xpXfEBKg==
=e2sj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov  3 09:38:23 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:38:23 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <xzqGi3bpp7Q5D4OiLL+s6Q==@bureau42.ml.org>



Secret Spin wrote:
> -----BEGIN PLP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Let's say you are Robert E. Lee and you are writing "Ulysses" 
> on your nice little Linus blanket.  Because you fear Lucy in
> the Sky with Diamonds pulling away the football, you use
> encrypted virtual herniated disks.
> 
> Because you are the Beaver, you have ten such disks.  One 
> contains your glass of draft and "Ulysses", four contain 
> harmless nuclear information, and five contain killfiles
> full of TruthMonger posts.
> 
> The jack booted Sandfarts kick down your door and drag you 
> by your dick to jail.  The gay-hispanic-transexual liberal <spit>
> Judge orders you to produce the pass phrases of all the disks or be
> penisized for condemned of court.
> 
> Now, you are in an interesting situation.  You can't give the
> passwords for half of the disks, but you are unable to prove this.
> This means you have nothing to gain by giving the pass phrase to the
> "Ulysses" disk - you will always be seen as holding out.  Even if you
> convince the Judge that some of the disks are noise, you have no
> reason not to include the "Ulysses" disk in this set.

I am only going to not-say this once, so listen up (snoozing==luzing).
Since I am not-saying this, you are going to have to think about it.

-----NON-STANDARD DISCLAIMER----
I accept no legal responsibility for anyone who sprains, or otherwise
injures their brain, by stepping off the well-lit main streets of 
proper societal thought patterns and ducking into the dark alleyways
of their mind, where strange, outlawed personas still lurk, secretly
engaging in the lost arts of alchemical cognition and evolutionary 
development of logic, thought, rationality and common-fucking-sense.
-----IS THAT NON-STANDARD ENOUGH FOR YOU?-----

Free brochure:
Circleiculum at 'THE WORLD'S WORST CRYPTOGRAPHY SCHOOL'
-------------------------------------------------------
101 - Making Sure Mom Can't Find Your Dirty Pictures
201 - Making Sure Your Employee Can't Hide His Dirty Pictures
301 - Government Cryptography Issues--How Many Algorithms Can
      Stand On The Head Of A Pin?
302 - Your Legal Right To Refuse To Hand Over Secret Keys The
      Government Already Has!
401 - Trusting PRZ From The PGP Cradel To The PGP Grave.

Free brochure:
Magicircleiculum at 'THE WORLD'S NON-EXISTENT CRYPTOGRAPHY SCHOOL'
------------------------------------------------------------------
Open-Ended Course / Self-Structured
The student is given a plain text file upon entering the program,
and then told to "Fuck off."
When ready, the student returns for the test. The student gives
his/her encrypted file to a cryptanalyst, who proceeds to take the
test. The cryptanalyst gets all the time he/she needs to take the 
test, while the student waits.
If the cryptanalyst decrypts the file, he/she passes the test and 
the student is sentenced to death. If the cryptanalyst fails to 
decrypt the file, the student is told to "Fuck off."
Students sentenced to death are taken to Life or Death Row which 
has a Death Chamber at one end and a Door To Freedom at the other.
The Executioner asks the student, "Does PRZ talk in his sleep?"
If the student answers, the Door To Freedom automatically locks.
Once the Door To Freedom locks, it does the student no good to
realize that the proper answer was to turn and walk out the
Door To Freedom.
The school has no graduates...only survivors.






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov  3 09:40:09 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:40:09 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <BkQsuF3gzq4QYXew9s4okA==@bureau42.ml.org>



       NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict

                    by J. Orlin Grabbe

	One of the dirty little secrets of the 1980s is that 
the U.S. regularly provided Iraq's Saddam Hussein with 
top-secret communication intercepts by the U.S. National 
Security Agency (NSA).  Consider the evidence.

	When in 1991 the government of Kuwait paid the 
public relations firm of Hill & Knowlton ten million 
dollars to drum up American war fever against the evil 
dictator Hussein, it brought about the end of a long legacy 
of cooperation between the U.S. and Iraq.  Hill & 
Knowlton resurrected the World War I propaganda story 
about German soldiers roasting Belgian babies on 
bayonets, updated in the form of a confidential witness 
(actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the 
U.S.) who told Congress a tearful story of Iraqi soldiers 
taking Kuwaiti babies out of incubators and leaving them 
on the cold floor to die.  President George Bush then 
repeated this fabricated tale in speeches ten times over the 
next three days.

	What is remarkable about this staged turn of 
events is that, until then, Hussein had operated largely 
with U.S. approval.  This cooperation had spanned three 
successive administrations, starting with Jimmy Carter.  
As noted by John R. MacArthur, "From 1980 to 1988, 
Hussein had shouldered the burden of killing about 
150,000 Iranians, in addition to at least thirteen thousand 
of his own citizens, including several thousand unarmed 
Kurdish civilians, and in the process won the admiration 
and support of elements of three successive U.S. 
Administrations" [1].

	Hussein's artful slaughter of Iranians was aided by 
good military intelligence.  The role of NSA in the 
conflict is an open secret in Europe, the Middle East, and 
Asia.  Only in this country has there been a relative news 
blackout, despite the fact that it was the U.S. 
administration that let the crypto cat out of the bag.  

	First, U.S. President Ronald Reagan informed the 
world on national television that the United States was 
reading Libyan communications.  This admission was part 
of a speech justifying the retaliatory bombing of Libya for 
its alleged involvement in the La Belle discotheque 
bombing in Berlin's Schoeneberg district, where two U.S. 
soldiers and a Turkish woman were killed, and 200 others 
injured. Reagan wasn't talking about American 
monitoring of Libyan news broadcasts. Rather, his "direct, 
precise, and undeniable proof"  referred to secret 
(encrypted) diplomatic communication between Tripoli 
and the Libyan embassy in East Berlin.

	Next, this leak was compound by the U.S. 
demonstration that it was also reading secret Iranian 
communications.  As reported in Switzerland's Neue 
Z^�rcher Zeitung,  the U.S. provided the contents of 
encrypted Iranian messages to France to assist in the 
conviction of Ali Vakili Rad and Massoud Hendi for the 
stabbing death in the Paris suburb of Suresnes of the 
former Iranian prime minister Shahpour Bakhtiar and his 
personal secretary Katibeh Fallouch. [2]
	
	What these two countries had in common was they 
had both purchased cryptographic communication 
equipment from the Swiss firm Crypto AG. Crypto AG 
was founded in 1952 by the (Russian-born) Swedish 
cryptographer Boris Hagelin who located his company in  
Zug.  Boris had created the "Hagelin-machine", a 
encryption device similar to the German "Enigma".  The 
Hagelin machine was used on the side of the Allies in 
World War II.

	Crypto AG was an old and venerable firm, and 
Switzerland was a neutral country. So Crypto AG's 
enciphering devices for voice communication and digital 
data networks were popular, and customers came from 
130 countries. These included the Vatican, as well the 
governments of Iraq, Iran, and Libya.  Such countries 
were naturally skeptical of cryptographic devices sold in 
many NATO countries, so turned to relatively neutral 
Switzerland for communication security.

	Iran demonstrated its suspicion about the source of 
the leaks, when it arrested Hans Buehler, a top salesman 
for Crypto AG, in Teheran on March 18, 1992.  During 
his nine and a half months of solitary confinement in Evin 
prison in Teheran, Buehler was questioned again and 
again whether he had leaked Teheran's codes or Libya's 
keys to Western powers.  Luckily Buehler didn't know 
anything.  He in fact believed in his own sales pitch that 
Crypto AG was a neutral company and its equipment was 
the best.  They were Swiss, after all.  [3]

	Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for 
Buehler's release in January 1993, then promptly fired 
him once they had reassured themselves that he hadn't 
revealed anything important under interrogation, and 
because Buehler had begun to ask some embarrassing 
questions. Then reports appeared on Swiss television, 
Swiss Radio International, all the major Swiss papers, and 
in German magazines like Der Spiegel.  Had Crypto AG's 
equipment been spiked by Western intelligence services? 
the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4].

	 Swiss television traced the ownership of Crypto 
AG to a company in Liechtenstein, and from there back to 
a trust company in Munich. A witness appearing on Swiss 
television explained the real owner was the German 
government--the Federal Estates Administration. [5]

	According to Der Spiegel, all but 6 of the 6000 
shares of Crypto AG were at one time owned by Eugen 
Freiberger, who resided in Munich and was head of the 
Crypto AG managing board in 1982. Another German, 
Josef Bauer, an authorized tax agent of the Muenchner 
Treuhandgesellschaft KPMG, and who was elected to the 
managing board in 1970, stated that his mandate had 
come from the German company Siemens.  Other 
members of Crypto AG's management had also worked at 
Siemens. Was the German secret service, the 
Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), hiding behind the 
Siemens' connection?

	So it would seem.  Der Spiegel reported that in 
October 1970, a secret meeting of the BND had discussed 
how the Swiss company Graettner could be guided into 
closer cooperation with Crypto AG, or could even merged 
with it. The BND additionally considered how "the 
Swedish company Ericsson could be influenced through 
Siemens to terminate its own cryptographic business." [6]

	A former employee of Crypto AG reported that he 
had to coordinate his developments with "people from 
Bad Godesberg". This was the location of the "central 
office for encryption affairs" of the BND, and the service 
instructed Crypto AG what algorithms to use to create the 
codes.  The employee also remembers an American 
"watcher", who strongly demanded the use of certain 
encryption methods.

	Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG 
often. A memorandum of  a secret workshop at Crypto 
AG in August 1975, where a new prototype of an 
encryption device was demonstrated, mentions the 
participation of Nora L. Mackebee, an NSA 
cryptographer. Motorola engineer Bob Newman says that 
Mackebee was introduced to him as a "consultant".  
Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG in the seventies in 
developing a new generation of electronic encryption 
machines.   The Americans "knew Zug very well and gave 
travel tips to the Motorola people for the visit at Crypto 
AG," Newman told Der Spiegel.

	Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto 
AG enciphering process, developed in cooperation with 
the NSA and the German company Siemans, involved 
secretly embedding the decryption key in the cipher text.  
Those who knew where to look could monitor the 
encrypted communication, then extract the decryption key 
that was also part of the transmission, and recover the 
plain text message.  Decryption of a message by a 
knowledgeable third party was not any more difficult that 
it was for the intended receiver.  (More than one method 
was used.  Sometimes the algorithm was simply deficient, 
with built-in exploitable weaknesses.)

	Crypto AG denies all this, of course, saying such 
reports are ""pure invention".

	What information was provided to Saddam 
Hussein exactly?  Answers to this question are currently 
being sought in a lawsuit against NSA in New Mexico, 
which has asked to see "all Iranian messages and 
translations between January 1, 1980 and June 10, 1996". 
[7]

	The passage of top-secret communications 
intelligence to someone like Saddam Hussein brings up 
other questions.  Which dictator is the U.S. passing top 
secret messages to currently?  Jiang Zemin?  Boris 
Yeltsin?  

	Will Saddam Hussein again become a recipient of 
NSA largess if he returns to the mass slaughter of 
Iranians?  What exactly is the purpose of NSA anyway?

	One more question:  Who is reading the Pope's 
communications?

                   Bibliography

[1] John R. MacArthur, Second Front: Censorship and 
Propaganda in the Gulf War, Hill and Wang, New York, 
1992.

[2] Some of the background of this assassination can be 
found in "The Tehran Connection," Time Magazine, 
March 21, 1994.

[3] The Buehler case is detailed in Res Strehle, 
Verschleusselt: der Fall Hans Beuhler, Werd Verlag, 
Zurich, 1994.  

[4] "For years, NSA secretly rigged Crypto AG machines 
so that U.S. eavesdroppers could easily break their codes, 
according to former company employees whose story is 
supported by company documents,"  "No Such Agency, 
Part 4: Rigging the Game," The Baltimore Sun, December 
4, 1995.

[5] Reported in programs about the Buehler case that were 
broadcast on Swiss Radio International on May 15, 1994 
and July 18, 1994.

[6]  "Wer ist der befugte Vierte?":  Geheimdienste 
unterwandern den Schutz von Verschlusselungsgeraten," 
Der Spiegel 36, 1996.

[7] U.S. District Court for the District of New Mexico, 
William H. Payne, Arthur R. Morales, Plaintiffs, v. 
Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, Director 
of National Security Agency, National Security Agency, 
Defendant, CIV NO 97 0266 SC/DJS.









From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 10:08:45 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:08:45 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
Message-ID: <199711031755.SAA11526@basement.replay.com>



> > It is like pgp but has lots of cool features.  File wiping, group
> > encryption, automatic encryption of files put in certain directories.
> 
> Am I supposed to be impressed?  They only support the proprietary
> products of a company supporting draconian gun controls.

You mean Microsoft.  It's foolish to reject encryption software because
it runs on the OS used by 90% of its customers.

> >Is this the new pgp?  No gak or even cak in sight.
> 
> No source no security.

You don't trust Schneier?  You've seen the limitations of source code
release.  Experts like Schneier and his team designing the crypto is
worth more than a bunch of know nothings scratching their heads and
wondering where to begin with 1000+ pages of source code.






From declan at well.com  Mon Nov  3 10:24:45 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:24:45 +0800
Subject: Larry Lessig: a new CDA better than censorware?
Message-ID: <v03007805b083bdb0607e@[168.161.105.141]>



***********

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:11:56 -0500
From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic at WELL.COM>
Subject:      Law Professor calls for new CDA
To: NETLY-L at pathfinder.com

(I have been saying for some time that Professor Lessig, despite how he
characterizes himself, is no friend of freedom of speech. But here's where
the other shoe has dropped.)

 From the online edition of the New York Times:

 October 30, 1997

 By CARL S. KAPLAN

 Is a Better CDA Preferable To Opaque Censorship?

 he Communications Decency Act is dead, and most free speech advocates say,
 "good riddance." If there must be a solution to the problem of kids and
 cyber-pornography, let a thousand software-blocking packages bloom in
 homes, libraries and schools.

 Professor Lawrence Lessig of Harvard Law School is having none of this,
 however. In a recent controversial draft essay on the regulation of
 cyberspace, Lessig, a respected cyberlaw scholar, argues that if government
 must embrace a solution to indecent speech, a revamped CDA-like plan would
 be far more protective of traditional free speech values than the dangerous
 filtering products that many civil libertarians seem to love, or at least
 to prefer.

 "My sense is that this first major victory [in Reno v. ACLU]  has set us
 in a direction that we will later regret," Lessig writes, referring to the
 Supreme Court opinion striking down the CDA on First Amendment grounds.
 "It has pushed the problem of kids and porn towards a solution that will
 (from the perspective of the interest in free speech) be much worse. The
 (filtering products) touted by free speech activists in Reno are, in my
 view, far more restrictive of free speech interests than a properly
 crafted CDA."

 Lessig is not the first free speech advocate to damn filtering software.
 But he goes further than most in his nostalgia for a revised CDA. He also
 knows that his conclusions may invite some fury.

 "Promoting a CDA-like solution to the problemb of indecency is very much
 to step out of line," he writes. "I am not advocating a CDA-like solution
 because I believe there is any real problem. In my view, it would be best
 just to let things alone. But if Congress is not likely to let things
 alone, or at least if the President is more likely to bully a private
 solution then we need to think through the consequences of these different
 solutions. . . . We may well prefer that nothing be done. But if something
 is to be done, then whether through public or private regulation, we need
 to think about its consequences for free speech."

 Lessig's article, titled "What Things Regulate Speech," is a trove of
 ideas and legal scholarship on the permissible scope of government
 regulation of indecency, the evils of filtering and the nature of law in
 cyberspace, where restrictions on speech, for example, are apt to be
 enacted not by federal or state statues, but by minimally debated software
 codes. Happily, the article is written in plain English, not law school
 professor-ese. Many of the author's ideas have been expressed in earlier
 articles, law review essays and speeches.

 Boiled down and simplified, the main points of Lessig's CDA argument run
 like this:

 First, he argues that government has the power to place or "zone" hard-core
 pornography out of the reach of kids, so long as the means chosen is the
 least restrictive form of discrimination that existing technology permits.

 For example, Lessig notes that a California law making it a crime to sell
 porn in unattended vending machines, unless the machines are equipped with
 an adult identification system, was upheld by a Federal Appeals court. The
 Supreme Court earlier this year declined to review the case and thereby
 left the California law standing. In a historical footnote, the denial was
 issued in the same week the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in the CDA
 case w another matter involving the distribution of porn to kids.

 Next, Lessig points out that the success in the CDA case came in persuading
 the Court that other, less restrictive means for protecting children from
 porn were still available. The evils associated with the less restrictive
 means [ traditional blocking software ] are legion, however.

 For one thing, blocking software is crude because it tends to filter out
 too much [ sites opened to discuss AIDS or gay rights, for example ]
 because of mistaken associations with indecency. Also, blocking software is
 opaque, because the lists of banned sites are not published. Finally, the
 filtering companies, prompted by the demands of the market, tend to offer
 generalized censorship [ restrictions on access to a variety of potentially
 objectionable sites, from those dealing with violence to gambling ] not
 just censorship of so-called indecent sites.

 The upshot is that to the extent that government embraces filtering
 software, or mandates its use in libraries or schools, for example, such
 state action may be unconstitutional, because the government is exceeding
 its narrow justification in separating kids from hard-core pornography.

 As bad as private blocking is, PICS is worse, Lessig argues. PICS, an
 acronym for "Platform for Internet Content Selection," is a proposed
 labeling standard that makes it possible to rate and block material on the
 Net.

 "It was motivated as an alternative to the CDA," Lessig, 36, said in a
 recent telephone interview. "The MIT geniuses who thought it up realized
 it had broader potential that just blocking indecent speech."

 Like blocking software, PICS will probably be used as a general filtering
 tool w far exceeding the narrow interests of government, Lessig says.
 Another problem is the invisible nature of PICS: "If I use PICS on a
 search engine, and PICS returns two hits,  and blocks 8 hits, it doesn't
report
 back to me that 8 sites have fallen off the Earth," Lessig says.

 Most ominously, he argues, PICS can be imposed by anybody in the
 distribution chain. Thus a filter can be placed on an person's computer, or
 at the level of a company, an ISP or even a nation without the end user
 ever knowing it, Lessig says, making it easier for centralized censors to
 place filters on the Net.

 Taken together, filtering software and PICS lead to a hard-wired
 architecture of blocking that is antagonistic to the original free-wheeling
 and speech-enhancing values of the Internet, Lessig argues.

 By contrast, the scheme proposed by the old CDA wasn't that bad, he
 suggests. Of course, the original CDA was flawed because it went after a
 category of speech that was too vague to pass constitutional muster, Lessig
 says - a problem that CDA II could fix by taking sharper aim at hard-core
 pornography.

 More important, the scheme envisioned by the old law was somewhat
 protective of free speech values. Under the CDA, the "means" offered to
 separate kids from pornography was to put porn behind a wall that screened
 out kids with reasonable effectiveness. The technique was not filtering.  It
 was to set up identity checks on the doors through which people wanted to
 pass.

 This type of system has two things going for it, says Lessig. First, its
 restrictions extend only as far as the legitimate governmental interest w
 screening kids from porn. Second, it is unlikely to morph into a more
 comprehensive system for general censorship.

 Lessig adds that this type of identification system - contrary to the
 court's factual findings - is workable.

 Reaction to Lessig's ideas from the free-speech cohort is understandably
 mixed. James Boyle, a law professor at American University, for example,
 agrees with Lessig's point that people should be very suspicious of
 technological solutions to indecent speech on the Internet, like blocking
 software and PICS.

 "There's a kind of belief that technological solutions are pure and
 neutral. They have an allure - like Jetson's Jurisprudence," he says.
 "But I agree with Larry; people need to understand that technology isn't
 necessarily benign."

 Even so, Boyle is disinclined to reconsider the merits of the CDA adult
 identification scheme. "I do diverge there," he says, adding that it is
 impractical to be totally against filtering systems. "The question is how
 to design filtering systems so they have the maximum vibrancy."

 Jonathan Wallace, a New York lawyer and writer on cyberspace issues, also
 shares Lessig's skepticism on blocking software and PICS. But he thinks a
 dusting off of the CDA is "wrongheaded."

 Even assuming that an adult identification scheme were viable - which he
 doubts - Wallace asserts that any attempt to redefine indecent speech more
 narrowly would invite lawsuits from right-wing groups intent on proving
 that under their community standards, objectionable speech should be
 banned.


 Carl S. Kaplan at kaplanc at nytimes.com welcomes your comments and
 suggestions.

 Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We shot a law in _Reno_, just to watch it die.

Mike Godwin, EFF Staff Counsel, is currently on leave from EFF,
participating as a Research Fellow at the Freedom Forum Media Studies
Center in New York City. He can be contacted at 212-317-6552.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 10:37:56 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:37:56 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711031657.KAA08353@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b083b7b75331@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:02 AM -0700 11/3/97, John Kelsey wrote:

>One problem with this is that, if it becomes widespread,
>nobody will ever buy insurance for these diseases unless
>they have it or probably will get it.  This kind-of defeats

Such insurance is now common. A boat owner doesn't buy insurance for
iceberg collisions if he is never in arctic waters, a small plane pilot
doesn't buy cargo insurance if he doesn't ferry cargo, and so on.


>the point of having insurance, which is to protect yourself
>from low probability high cost things happening.  That is,

I have a different view of what insurance is than John does.

What insurance is, and how it is priced, is too long a topic to get into
here. Suffice it to say that the insurance company makes its profits by
charging more for coverage than it pays out. And the customer, of course,
tends to lose the differential.

Each side tries to get as much information as possible. If Joe Client knows
he never pilots a cargo plane, he doesn't opt for cargo insurance. If Joe
Client knows he never engages in unprotected sex with diseasy prostitutes,
etc., he skips HIV insurance. The fact that some "low probability events,"
like meteor strikes, are uncovered is part of the price of keeping Joe's
premiums tolerable.

>before I've taken the test for genetic disease X, my best
>estimate of the probability that I will test positive is
>very low.  Once I have taken it, I know the result.  If I
>sign up for a-la-carte insurance for this disease, the
>insurance company effectively knows I must have tested
>positive for a predisposition to it, and so either won't
>give me insurance, or will give me insurance only at an
>extremely high rate (corresponding to a 1/10 chance of
>getting the disease, rather than a 1/1,000,000 chance).

This is the idea. It causes those with the predilections to the disease to
pay the high coverage costs.

The alternative is not pretty: banning private testing (how?) and forcing
insurance companies to cover all applicants for all conditions at a fixed
rate.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From 5kir at juno.com  Tue Nov  4 02:38:31 1997
From: 5kir at juno.com (5kir at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:38:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Join The Online Goldrush!
Message-ID: <31514432_26079502>



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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++






From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Mon Nov  3 10:49:00 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:49:00 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>



[Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm at ibm.net>
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....

ALL:
I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.

Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the freezing
drizzle.  I really thought we could make a difference, standing there
with our banner and signs, one of which read, "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT."  Stupid me.  As the saying
goes...we've come a long way, baby.

As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
would say.
Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
to blur the lines of reality.
=====================
Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
reading this.
Paul and Jodi Hoffman
Weston, Florida

"When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
(Hitler Youth Corps).
==================================================
LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
the United States.
Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
answers.
Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

THE RULE:
The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
rights.
THE REALITY:
Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
Soviet Union.
The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA

THE RULE:
Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
control the minds of the people.

THE REALITY:
It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
presented.
Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.

This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
cold, hard reality.
The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
press itself.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE

THE RULE:
Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
and lose respect for government leaders.

THE REALITY:
Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
have the most open and honest political system in the world.   The
United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
"Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
things are run anyway!"

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING

THE RULE:
Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.

THE REALITY:
Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
than in any other nation in the world.

Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
"disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR

THE RULE:
Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
ours.

THE REALITY:
If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.

Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
claiming "impartiality."

Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?

In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).

Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
condemnation.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT

THE RULE:
Encourage government extravagance on every front.
Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
independence, motivation and strength.

THE REALITY:
The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
education.

We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
cutbacks in services are proposed.

And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.

They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES

THE RULE:
Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
one interest:   Themselves!

THE REALITY:
>From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moralrelativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The 
highest
goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
themselves.

Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
their problems on society.

We have truly become the "me generation."

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP

THE RULE:
Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.

THE REALITY:
When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
every corner.

The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
United States.

Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
banned.
After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
illegal, women will still get abortions.

RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES

THE RULES:
Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
within the ranks.
Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
of their armed forces.

THE REALITY:
Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
national product.
We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
Congress, and
(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
the new and streamlined armed services.

Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'

Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.

Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
================================================================
The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
and from the United States itself.
They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
great detail by many Americans.

-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361






From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Mon Nov  3 10:51:35 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:51:35 +0800
Subject: What Will Revolution Look Like?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971031102712.00c3d2dc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103111759.18286B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>





On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, John Young wrote:

> Preindicators to revolution and anti-revolution in US:
> 
> World's highest disparity between poor and rich population.
> 
> World's highest military expenditures.
> 
> World's highest justice expenditures.
> 
> World's largest percentage of population in prison.
> 
> World's largets percentage of population in law enforcement.
> 

This reminded me of a wonderful quote from Mr. Jefferson:

"To preserve [the] independence [of the people,] we must not let our
rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between
economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts
as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries
and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and
our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come
to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of
these to the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the
sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now
do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling
the mismanagers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring
ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers."

--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. 

(-: was he describing England or the US?  ;-)

jim







From declan at well.com  Mon Nov  3 11:28:32 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:28:32 +0800
Subject: More on Censorware Summit, from Communications Daily
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971103105516.12437G-100000@well.com>





---------- Forwarded message ----------

Communications Daily
November 3, 1997, Monday

ONLINE SUMMIT ON KIDS' ISSUES SET FOR DEC.


   Broad-based effort by industry, consumer and advocacy groups to come up with
means to protect children who use Internet and online services will begin to
announce its solutions at summit meeting Dec. 1-3 in Washington. Summit, which
could involve as many as 300 participants, is result of meeting at White House
in July following Supreme Court decision to strike down key parts of
Communications Decency Act (CDA). At meeting, industry promised to find ways to
protect children.

   While original focus was on protecting children from pornography, plan is
being drawn up to include examination of other issues with children online such
as privacy and marketing. Longer term project could take another 6 months or as
long as year, said Christine Varney, ex-FTC member now in private practice who
is chmn. of summit. She was heavily involved with online issues during her
tenure at FTC.

   Varney said there will be other events next year, tentatively set for Feb.,
April, May and June, although structure for those hasn't been set. Idea was to
concentrate first on children's safety issues for Dec. meeting, she said in
interview. Dec. conference in Washington will announce tools and
recommendations
that industry and interest groups have come up with in safety area, Varney
said,
and there will be "concrete action at each stage" of process on issues to be
considered.

   Those recommendations aren't yet final, but could include some types of
rating system. Varney rejected notion that there are First Amendment concerns
involved, saying project "is not at all about censorship." Biggest danger, she
said, is that there could be single rating system -- it's not censorship if
there are many rating systems. Daniel Weitzner, deputy dir. of Center for
Democracy & Technology (CDT), one of groups that challenged CDA, agreed, saying
that key difference is between govt.'s taking role of censor and parents'
deciding what can be seen by children. He, too, said he was worried about
proposals for "some kind of mandatory labeling, which would be clearly
unconstitutional." Because of technical limitations, TV can accommodate
only one
system, Weitzner said, but computers are much more flexible. He added: "I know
of no interpretation of the First Amendment which says individuals, private
citizens, can't control what they read."

   There is some disagreement, however. David Banisar of Electronic Privacy
Information Center (EPIC) called meeting "censorware summit." He said it's
"attempting to undo what the Supreme Court did when it struck down the
CDA," and
"this is something that should be avoided because it's worse than the disease."
Banisar agreed no First Amendment restraint is involved, but more basic
principles of free speech can be violated by filtering tools and software that
could be used on national level.  That possibility, he said, is "equally as
dangerous as the CDA." Banisar said he's working with "a coalition of free
speech groups on alternatives" to summit. He said private industry and group
effort is more dangerous than legislation because "at least with legislation
there are certain rights under the First Amendment that can be applied."

   One of Varney's challenges in heading project is to bring together
groups who
spent years fighting each other over CDA and to determine whether there
could be
some areas of agreement. So far, she said, process has been working very well.
In addition to goal of coming up with recommendations on substance of issues is
goal of "creating partnerships where they didn't exist before," process
that she
said was particularly important because it's taking place as new medium
develops. She acknowledged that there must be concerted effort to maintain
focus
on children in deliberations while persuading former opponents to "check their
differences at the door" on CDA and other issues. Donna Hughes, communications
dir. for Enough Is Enough, anti-child porn group, said she was pleased that
summit has adopted much of her group's agenda. She said she was "pleased to be
at the table, to work very closely with many people who we had debated for 3
years." One benefit of summit, she said, is to "get to know each other. That's
always constructive." Hughes said she doesn't view online summit process as
refighting of CDA issues, saying result of CDA debate was to focus public
attention on dangers to children. Varney agreed, saying that "great beauty" of
process is that "folks so divided on the CDA" are agreed on children's' issues.

   But Banisar takes different view. He said his group was part of anti-CDA
coalition that had view different from CDT. Now, he said, CDT is taking "a very
industry viewpoint on this." Commitment of America Online (AOL), another CDA
defendant and major sponsor of online summit, to free speech "has been premised
that it doesn't want to be held liable for what its people said. It doesn't
mind
when it's censoring."






From jon at pgp.com  Mon Nov  3 12:10:50 1997
From: jon at pgp.com (Jon Callas)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:10:50 +0800
Subject: RSA Blows Smoke
In-Reply-To: <199711021240.HAA30685@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103115159.0894a320@mail.pgp.com>



At 01:53 PM 11/2/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
   
   Unfortunately PGP Inc have closed off dialogue on the topic --
   apparent blanket ban on employee discussion of CMR.
   
Horsefeathers, Adam. We've been talking about this with you a lot and you
know it. We set up a mailing list to discuss it, you've received personal
phone calls, and lots of people have bent over backwards for you.

If you think you're being ignored, perhaps you should re-examine the
signal-to-noise ratio of your posts.

	Jon



-----
Jon Callas                                  jon at pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)






From marc at cygnus.com  Mon Nov  3 13:17:51 1997
From: marc at cygnus.com (Marc Horowitz)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:17:51 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <t53yb35r8pl.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>



Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
copy them.

While the cost of one-off CD duplication will certainly drop, I see no
reason that media will not change form in the future.  As long as it's
cheaper or more convenient to buy digital media from the publisher
than to copy it yourself, the piracy problem basically doesn't exist.
This is exactly what makes copyright work for books: I can duplicate a
book, but it will cost more than buying it legitimately.  (There is
still the problem of systematic large-scale piracy, but this is
relatively easy to notice and prosecute under existing law.)

Short works (newspapers, magazines, journals, etc.) will need a
different mechanism, such as advertising, but that infrastructure is
creating itself today.

I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem,
outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.

		Marc






From brianbr at together.net  Mon Nov  3 13:29:17 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:29:17 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711032113.QAA16739@mx02.together.net>



On 11/1/97 5:02 PM, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>Hmmm, will have to rethink suggesting any PGP based products to my customers
>now. I simply refuse to pay anybody any percentage of my product revenues
>simply because I use their tool. I buy a SDK for a flat fee like I buy a
>book, screwdriver, or a car. I can't imagine Black & Decker wanting a
>percentage of the house sale simply because the carpenter used their hammers
>and saws. Ford or Chevy wanting to see my income statement each year so they
>can figure out how much I owe them because I drive their brand of vehicle to
>my customers sites...yeah right.

 Have you ever priced earth moving equipment ... the price on them is 
easily 150-300% of what it should be, say comparing it to 'consumer' 
items, like cars and small pickups and extrapolating up for the backhoe 
or whatever ... everyone I talk to in the contracting business says the 
same thing,  "... its an item you are going to use to make money and they 
are taking a cut of your profits up front"


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 	"The Box said Win '95 or better - So I used a Macintosh!"
 			 -- Harold Herbert Tessman			       







From mskala at lyell.csc.UVic.CA  Mon Nov  3 13:29:30 1997
From: mskala at lyell.csc.UVic.CA (mskala at lyell.csc.UVic.CA)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:29:30 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <199711011024.LAA08905@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.971103130052.14176B-100000@lyell.csc.UVic.CA>



On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> If I were someone who wanted to make the internet look like a place 
> that needed STRONG governmental controls I would put the words 
> terrorists,criminals,pornographers,drug dealers/addicts,

Fnord.






From semprini at theschool.com  Mon Nov  3 13:31:01 1997
From: semprini at theschool.com (semprini at theschool.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:31:01 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711032057.MAA08856@k2.brigadoon.com>



> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

Wrong. Exposure to pornography does not cause "brain damage" or 
"structural changes in the brain." That's like saying that holding up 
dirty pictures in front of an office building is going to cause 
"structural changes" in the building. Sure, a percentage of the 
little people inside looking out the windows are going to have a 
twisted little grin on their face, but holding up the pictures isn't 
going to compromise the integrity of the building structure. I'd like 
to know where you get your information, because it's false.






From landon at best.com  Mon Nov  3 13:56:15 1997
From: landon at best.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:56:15 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711032133.NAA16067@shell9.ba.best.com>




> Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
> about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
> copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
> duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
> and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
> copy them.

  you can duplicate a CD for about $2, in half an hour

  i've already encountered some copy-protected software (the CD
duplicates don't work).  my guess is we'll see a lot more of this


> I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem

  check out the "warez" newsgroups...


  peace,

-landon






From jrussell at syncrypt.com  Mon Nov  3 14:05:50 1997
From: jrussell at syncrypt.com (Jim Russell)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:05:50 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
Message-ID: <01bce8a2$032602e0$2901320a@Polaris.domain>



>>Anybody heard of syncrypt?

I have.  Of course, being one of its authors, that's to be expected.

>>File wiping, group encryption, automatic encryption of files put in
certain directories... hiding encrypted files in pictures!

True, true, true and true.  I might add that the Secure Delete file wiping
passes Kent Briggs' "Directory Snoop" check on Windows 95.

>>It pulls them back out again too.

We'd have some unhappy customers if it didn't. <g>

>>Plus it has an interesting "20 questions" method for backing up your
passphrase.

For the algorithmically inclined among us, this was implemented via Shamir's
secret-sharing scheme.  There was also a great deal of discussion about what
questions to ask -- "What's your favorite color?" doesn't provide as much
entropy as "What was the last name of your favorite grade school teacher?",
for example.

>>Bruce Schneier is working with them, so they should have good crypto.

Yes, having Bruce and his colleague Chris Hall consulting with us was
invaluable.  They beat up on us pretty good during the betas, which is
exactly what we wanted.

>>No gak or even cak in sight.

Absolutely true.  Our enterprise level product, SynCrypt Gold, is currently
in development, and its data recovery features will be implemented in such a
way that it could *never* become an
infrastructure for GAK.

  Jim Russell <jrussell at syndata.com>
  Chief Software Engineer
  SynData Technologies, Inc.
  http://www.syncrypt.com







From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 14:10:39 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:10:39 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345E4500.5828@dev.null>



Having Tourette Syndrome can sometimes be a burden, particularly when
one goes through a long period where their obscene outbursts are serving
no particular purpose. So it is refreshing when I come across situations
where all of those huddled masses of naughty words, struggling to be
free, can be expressed in a meaningful manner, thus living a productive
life instead of being just wasted.

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
> reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]

  Rookie...
 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
> From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm at ibm.net>
> To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
> 
> ALL:
> I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.

  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

> As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
> me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> society?

  Why do I get the feeling that this Dumb Cunt (TM) has 'all of the
answers' for society and everyone in it, and is about to share them 
with us?
  Well, if she expects us to listen to the divine wisdom of her
words from the mount, I guess she had better explain to us how we
are just dirt under her feet, so that we will realize we need to
listen and learn from her.

>  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> them.

  The shame! The shame!

>  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
> taken from someone.  

  Typo...*should* read "Only a moron knows..."

>Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
> to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
> would say.

  That's right...you ask AND answer the questions, and we'll just 
sit here and shut the fuck up.

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.

  Does "numerous attempts at convincing" translate to "expressed an
opinion I disagreed with?"

>  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

  Good idea to make vague, unsubstantiated claims in this area. If you
provided sources and references, someone might be able to throw them
back in your face and laugh at you for being an ignorant sack of shit,
using self-serving 'studies' to support untenable logic.
 
> So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.

  Protecting? Hell, I strive to share them with as many people as
possible. 

>  That's exactly what happened with the Hitler youth, etc...

  Uuhhh...you've got a 'study' to not-quote on this theory too, eh?

>  After all, I'm sure it does help
> to blur the lines of reality.

  This makes even less sense than the last sentence. Are you trying
to communicate propaganda that you don't fully understand?
  Perhaps you should just stick to slogans and sound-bytes, rather 
than trying to turn strings of disparate sentences into paragraphs.

<end of 'Windup'>
> =====================
<and here comes the 'Pitch'>

> Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
> through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
> being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
> phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
> ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
> reading this.
> Paul and Jodi Hoffman
> Weston, Florida
> 
> "When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
> calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
> speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
> (Hitler Youth Corps).

  Are you positive this quote isn't from Eisenhower, in regard to the
American public educational system?

> ==================================================
> LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
> These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
> and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
> Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
> the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
> the United States.
> Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
> happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
> answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
> answers.
> Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
> be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.

  Are you sure this wasn't Nixon, taling about Vietnam and Democracy?
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

  Alright! Party time!
 
> THE RULE:
> The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
> religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
> from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
> involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
> rights.
>
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
> physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
> want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
> something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
> back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
> not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
> without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
> slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
> random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
> who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
> parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
> Soviet Union.
> The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
> nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
> good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
> it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  It sounds like the Dumb Cunt (TM) is suggesting that the former Soviet
Union would have been a better place to raise our kids.
  Yep, go to any high school and all the boys talk about is going over
to the maternity wing of the hospital and porking the little sluts as
they exit the womb. Honest! There are _studies_ that show this!

 > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
> 
> THE RULE:
> Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
> control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
> control the minds of the people.
>
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
> all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
> are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
> motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
> decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
> presented.
> Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
> governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
> particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
> "arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
> pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
> Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
> submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
> showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.
> 
> This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
> cold, hard reality.
> The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
> observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
> press itself.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  It is unconscienable for the mass media to hold traditional values 
up to scorn, and mock Ra, Isis, and the many, many gods who were born
of a virgin and died and rose after three days, the last of which was...
hang on, his name is on the tip of my tongue...Jesus!
  Remember: left wing values =/= decency and morality
  Is the Dumb Cunt telling us that the Moral Majority, which would
by definition be the "prevailing order of the day," are a bunch of
queer, violent aborionists with contempt for parental authority?
I _thought_ there was something weird about those fuckers.
  Those were non-Christian 'impartial' observers and study managers,
right? <snicker-snicker-guffah!>

 > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
> 
> THE RULE:
> Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
> world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
> and lose respect for government leaders.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
> history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
> average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
> hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
> have the most open and honest political system in the world.

  Hold it!
  <laugh> <barf> <laugh> <barf>
  OK, continue...

>   The
> United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
> them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
> representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
> themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
> On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
> pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
> homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
> struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
> "Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
> things are run anyway!"

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  This is the communists doing this, again, right? Flouridated water,
etc?
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
> 
> THE RULE:
> Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
> getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
> Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
> trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
> halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
> timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
> conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
> than in any other nation in the world.
> 
> Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
> or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
> them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
> to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
> cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
> Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
> concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
> "disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
> composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  If the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing bum-buddies would quit
opposing environmental concerns, animal-rights, sodomy and dozens 
of other Neoliberal causes, then there wouldn't be all of that 
bickering now, would there? 
  The TruthMonger of the fact is, the problem is that the "real issues
of importance" *_ARE_* the subject of "concrete action" by those who
have decided that their own conservative values should be legislated
into governmental existence in the interests of punishing and 
imprisoning those with different values.
  I've never seen anyone imprisoned for _not_ smoking a joint.
  Think about _that_ you Ignorant Nazi Bitch!

> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
> 
> THE RULE:
> Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
> ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
> ours.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
> by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
> other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
> a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
> in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.
> 
> Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
> media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
> traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
> claiming "impartiality."
> 
> Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
> people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
> groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
> time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?
> 
> In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
> valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).
> 
> Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
> the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
> international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
> condemnation.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  The Bibles were removed from the schools by the white Christian
kids barricaded inside, thowing the Bibles at the niggers, as they
tried to enter the school buildings. While waiting for the Bibles
to be replaced the students had nothing left to read but the
Constitution, and realized that the Bibles shouldn't have been
there in the first place.
  I would like to remind the Dumb Cunt that there are no laws
prohibiting her children from bowing and praying toward Mecca
three times a day, and it would probably do them some good.
  The rest of the points above merely serve to illustrate that
conservatives can't handle good acid, and should probably stick
to booze.
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
> 
> THE RULE:
> Encourage government extravagance on every front.
> Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
> government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
> independence, motivation and strength.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
> earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
> dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
> homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
> education.
> 
> We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
> of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
> government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
> cutbacks in services are proposed.
> 
> And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.
> 
> They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
> health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
> socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  I agree with the Dumb Cunt (TM) on this point. We need to fuck
away our money on billions and billions of dollars of nuclear arms,
weapons, surveillance equipment, secret agents and assassins, etc.
  A decent and moral society can only be ensured by buying 10,000
toilet seats for the Pentagon.
  (Jesus. You _really_are_ a Dumb Cunt (TM), aren't you?)
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
> 
> THE RULE:
> Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
> in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
> religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
> one interest:   Themselves!
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> >From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moral
> relativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The highest
> goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
> Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
> person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
> themselves.
> 
> Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
> faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
> one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
> alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
> their problems on society.
> 
> We have truly become the "me generation."

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  The Dumb Cunt (TM) is beginning to degenerate into drooling and
meaningless generalizations which make little sense.
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP
> 
> THE RULE:
> Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
> confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
> thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
> well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
> every corner.
> 
> The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
> United States.
> 
> Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
> completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
> submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
> permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
> disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
> banned.
> After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
> every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
> parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
> illegal, women will still get abortions.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  I guess it was a mistake for the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing
bum-buddies to join the left-wing sodomy artists in electing so
goddamn many Communist gun-snatchers to political office.
  I think we ought to give Hinkley his gun back, as soon as 
another Republican is elected President.

 > RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
> 
> THE RULES:
> Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
> Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
> ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
> within the ranks.
> Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
> and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
> of their armed forces.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
> national product.
> We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
> our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
> (1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
> Congress, and
> (2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
> it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
> the new and streamlined armed services.
> 
> Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
> honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
> as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'
> 
> Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
> if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.
> 
> Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  And all of the good soldiers, like Tim McVeigh, end up leaving.
 
> FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
> ================================================================
> The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
> that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
> attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
> extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
> from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
> and from the United States itself.
> They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
> Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
> 21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
> These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
> revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
> Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
> any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
> great detail by many Americans.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  Vladimir Lenin's best friend in the whole, wide world, is the Dumb
Cunt (TM) and her Nazi Christian bum-buddies. 
  The Godless Communists and the Nazi Christians could trade their
brochures and just interchange the words  "Commie" and "Christian."

  I wish I had a penny for every Dumb Cunt (TM) and Stupid Prick (TM)
who spent the majority of their time promoting the very same beliefs
as those they claim to oppose, the only difference being that their
'solution' is the MLM promoting of a 'god' with a different name,
or a 'flag' with a different 'hang time.'

> --
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> 1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
> Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

  Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
at others?

Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
If it saves the life of just one child...

TruthMonger






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 14:12:36 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:12:36 +0800
Subject: Export a random number, go to jail
In-Reply-To: <199711031002.CAA26848@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b083a8fedddf@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:46 AM -0700 11/3/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:

>: One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
>: forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
>: exportable.
>
>If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
>pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
>that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
>contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
>authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
>all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
>EAR.


"Export a random number, go to jail."


--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From ryan at michonline.com  Mon Nov  3 14:15:04 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:15:04 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <t53yb35r8pl.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971103163124.18441B-100000@king>



On 3 Nov 1997, Marc Horowitz wrote:

> Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
> about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
> copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
> duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
> and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
> copy them.

No, most game manufacturers have stopped worrying about piracy because no
matter wht ehy do about it, some cracker defeats it in under a week and
posts the whole game (or a useable subet) to the Internet.

Take Diablo, one of the more popular games of the last year.  It filled a
CD - 600 megabytes of sound, animations, etc.  It was *one* big file,
encrypted, with dlls stored inside it.

The guy who cracked it broke this in a week, chopped out a bunch of the
sounds that weren't adding anything to the game (most of the music, and
the voices of all the characters).  He ended up with 1 150 megabyte
version.  This got passed around the net.

This is *common*!  Over the last 20 years, the long-time game companies
have realized that it simply isn't worth th effort.  ID for example
doesn't even bother with a pretense of copy protection (at least with
Quake they didn't).  This probably contribted to the overwhelming success
of Quake.

In an even mildly technical group of friends, even teen-agers, somebody
probably has access to a CD-Rom burner.  It's trivial to spend a coupld of
days connnected to the net downloading the archives of a game, and burn
them onto a cCD to pass around to several friend to play.  (Or, have one
person buy the game, copy all the CDs, and return it.  This is trivial
with large computer chains such as CompUSA and Computer City)


Typically it will costy $6-$12 for a copy of a popular game in incremental
costs, with the game costing either $0 ro $50 depending on whether or not
someone wants the manuals (increasingly useless portion of the product,
BTW).  Startup hardwar costs are typicall $300-$500, and occassionally the
access is through work or school, reducing even this to virtually nothing.

It is interesting to note, however, that this problem seems to exist where
the lack of jobs and income prevent people from purchasing the games.
Typicall this is with students of middle-class (to upper-middle class)
families that are going to college and have little spare cash.  As soon as
this group begins to get the income necessary to support such a habit,
this trend changes.  So, I'm not sure it's something the game companies
care about, becuase they're simply locking in a portion of the market that
wasn't going to purchase the games anyway.

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 14:17:50 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:17:50 +0800
Subject: Charityware
In-Reply-To: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b083a67344ca@[207.167.93.63]>





My advice to Monty Cantsin or whomever actually wrote this: write shorter
pieces! The quote-and-coment style, especially for very long pieces,
usually results in people skipping huge sections, or the whole thing. I
only scanned this and stopped when I saw the word "cryptoanarchist."

At 4:41 AM -0700 11/3/97, Mix wrote:
(quoting someone else)

>>New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
>>from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.
>
>The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
>cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
>it clear from day one that it is not free software.  If you want to
>run it, you should buy it.  (The problem with share ware is that people
>get used to "borrowing" it.)

_This_ cryptoanarchist will almost _never_ pay for that which is free.

If someone gives me something, no strings attached, and then says, "Oh, the
"suggested donation" is $10," I tell them that they should have charged me
that in the first place. (I'm obviously not fond of leftie events which are
advertised as free, but which require a mandatory voluntary "suggested
donation.")

More to the point, I use various freebies I get off the Net. Some of them
have obscure schemes for sending payments to the alleged authors. Too much
hassle. And if it's _free_, why pay anything?

Charityware is not a viable business model.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 14:27:35 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:27:35 +0800
Subject: I Hold These Truths To Be Self-Evident
Message-ID: <345E4733.5069@dev.null>



BASIC TRUTHS
Everyone has a photographic memory.  Some don't have film. 
A day without sunshine is like, night.
Diplomacy is saying "nice doggy " until you find a rock. 
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
Back up my hard drive? How do I put it in reverse?
I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. 
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.
Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it. 
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't. 
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe. 
He's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be 
misquoted, then used against you.
I wonder how much deeper would the ocean be without sponges.
Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular? 
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization. 
He who laughs last, thinks slowest.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov  3 14:35:30 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:35:30 +0800
Subject: www.cypherpunks.to
Message-ID: <999fc34491ff840a6074ef2fcc763b96@anon.efga.org>



What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.






From wabe at smart.net  Mon Nov  3 14:39:05 1997
From: wabe at smart.net (wabe)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:39:05 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <01bce8be$792f3b20$d27f61ce@dave>



Dear Jodi-

So occasionally I like to turn these arguments around in my head:

Why should the smart, mature people under 18 in this
country be penalized because your immature, mentally 
retarded and over-fragile kids can't seem to handle
the sight of naked people?  What if I wanted to protect
my children from the evils of Christianity?  Could I 
ban that from the internet with the same sort of
high horse the anti-porn people seem to be riding?

 And damage and change are completely different things.  We're
all changed by our experiences.  Some people among us were 
apparantly beat over the head with dirty pictures as children
and are now horribly afraid of them.

The other bits in her letter (The bible being thrown out
of public schools for example) were just plain lies.

It's sad that when most of America has to chose between
its essential freedoms and the most trivial of
protection from objectionable thought, that we chose
to lose the freedoms.  

_______________________________________
-wabe




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 14:59:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:59:58 +0800
Subject: Charityware
Message-ID: <v03102800b083f5890c9e@[207.167.93.63]>





My advice to Monty Cantsin or whomever actually wrote this: write shorter
pieces! The quote-and-coment style, especially for very long pieces,
usually results in people skipping huge sections, or the whole thing. I
only scanned this and stopped when I saw the word "cryptoanarchist."

At 4:41 AM -0700 11/3/97, Mix wrote:
(quoting someone else)

>>New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
>>from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.
>
>The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
>cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
>it clear from day one that it is not free software.  If you want to
>run it, you should buy it.  (The problem with share ware is that people
>get used to "borrowing" it.)

_This_ cryptoanarchist will almost _never_ pay for that which is free.

If someone gives me something, no strings attached, and then says, "Oh, the
"suggested donation" is $10," I tell them that they should have charged me
that in the first place. (I'm obviously not fond of leftie events which are
advertised as free, but which require a mandatory voluntary "suggested
donation.")

More to the point, I use various freebies I get off the Net. Some of them
have obscure schemes for sending payments to the alleged authors. Too much
hassle. And if it's _free_, why pay anything?

Charityware is not a viable business model.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From jlhoffm at ibm.net  Mon Nov  3 15:10:16 1997
From: jlhoffm at ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:10:16 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345E53EF.14BB@ibm.net>



TruthMonger wrote:
<snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>

Monger:

Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
By the way...for whatever it's worth:
#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  
#3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
- Darth Vader
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361






From lizard at mrlizard.com  Mon Nov  3 15:23:48 1997
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:23:48 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971103150536.00c76d00@dnai.com>



At 05:45 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>TruthMonger wrote:
><snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>
>
>Monger:
>
>Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
>By the way...for whatever it's worth:
>#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

Jews, of all the people on this planet, should be the last to burn books.
We have always been a nation of scholars and readers, and the only reason
we still exist as a people is because we kept our books sacred. A Jew may
violate any commandment to save his own life, save one -- he may not
desecrate the Torah. Our culture survived through two millennia of
persecution because we had books with which we kept it alive. That you are
a bookburner is sickening to me.

Please, convert or something. I have an Uncle who would be glad to tell you
all the benefits of becoming a Christian. The Muslims would probably love
you, too. Or consider Buddhism. Anything. Please. I admit to being an
agnostic, to eating pork, to never knowing quite when Yom Kippur is...but I
still have some tiny, thin, shreds of pride in my ancestry and my heritage.

>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

You are a bookburner. That is enough for me.






From nobody at neva.org  Mon Nov  3 15:26:31 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:26:31 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711032308.RAA15514@multi26.netcomi.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Declan "Socrates" McCullagh wrote:
>[Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
>reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
>From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm at ibm.net>
>To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
>
>ALL:
>I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.
>
>Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
>Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the
>freezing drizzle.  I really thought we could make a difference,
>standing there with our banner and signs, one of which read, "DON'T
>SACRIFICE MY CHILD ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT."  Stupid me.
>As the saying goes...we've come a long way, baby.
>
>As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns
>on me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
>nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
>brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
>you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
>society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
>them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
>taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I
>have to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not
>many, I would say.

Hoffman's claim that she is unable to control what her child sees is
weak.  It's easy enough keep kids off the Net.  It's easy to buy
software that only reveals approved parts of the Net.

So what is it about our Constitution that Hoffman finds so offensive?
It certainly doesn't harm her own child.

If we were to be charitable, we would say that she is concerned about
other people's children seeing pornography.  The only problem is, that
the parents of these children are just as able as she is to control
their involvement with the Net.  Yet, apparently, she is unhappy with
the choices these parents are making and wishes to overrule them.  At
best, this is inconsistent with her claim that she believes parents
should decide what their own children see.

If we were to be accurate, instead of charitable, we would observe
that it is most likely that Hoffman is offended by pornography in
general, no matter who sees it.  For instance, this statement refers
to an adult, not a child: "So, keep protecting your porn-induced
orgasms."

Rather than stating her beliefs openly and honestly, she is hiding
behind children, particularly her own child, to put promote her
outrageous, unconstitutional, and un-American totalitarian policies.
(Hoffman may not even be completely conscious of her own motivations.
Often, this sort of person begins with an agenda, and then works him
or herself up into a rage using other reasons for the justification,
somewhat reminiscent of the "Two Minute Hate" sessions described in
Orwell's "1984".)

I said a few days ago that people who would use the excuse of
protecting children to promote their own twisted agenda are the lowest
of the low.  Hoffman is, I believe, a perfect example.  I pity her
child.

This is also a good example of why the use of remailers is advisable.
It lowers the odds that some whacko will come after you with an axe.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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xZ0j9y2EJBgekNwb0sC35BWkACZOuJSSG4bMGuWZR7NP3O/YaV19EA==
=zPYs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From ulf at fitug.de  Mon Nov  3 15:44:38 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:44:38 +0800
Subject: A Legal Strategy
In-Reply-To: <d055dda10a1a6e5d60cbd7a5914bcac6@squirrel>
Message-ID: <m0xSVv0-0003bcC@ulf.mali.sub.org>



Monty Cantsin writes:

>Now, you are in an interesting situation.  You can't give the
>passwords for half of the disks, but you are unable to prove this.
>This means you have nothing to gain by giving the pass phrase to the
>"Ulysses" disk - you will always be seen as holding out.  Even if you
>convince the Judge that some of the disks are noise, you have no
>reason not to include the "Ulysses" disk in this set.

Bryan Olson once discussed something like this in a sci.crypt post:
<URL:http://www.sevenlocks.com/papers/crypto/duress.txt>






From berezina at qed.net  Mon Nov  3 15:55:35 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:55:35 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <346258f1.10008797@mail.qed.net>



Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm at ibm.net> wrote:

>By the way...for whatever it's worth:
>#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

This makes you a Nazi-loving Jewish bitch. I concur in Monger's assessment
of you as a Dumb Cunt. To expand on this, nearly every position you take is
fascist -- to pick one at random, you accuse the American people of physical
flabbiness. Now, who -- in the nineteen-thirties -- abhorred such flabbiness
in the German people & made a show of public exercise rituals:

1. Jewish Intellectuals.
2. Nazis.

Not a coincidence, either. Sedentary activities include reading, discussion,
writing, &c. -- all abhorred by fascists. Yet you claim to oppose fascism.
Dumb cunt. & this is the most trivial example.

>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

To a degree, true. But apply the principle to others: you know as little, or
less, about me than I know about you. Stop trying to dictate my life.

>#3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

You're right? Sorry, I must have missed that. Was your post cyphertext?

>"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
>- Darth Vader

Yes, Darth Vader was a card-carrying member of the ACLU.

Paul

The final elegance, not to console
Nor sanctify, but plainly to propound.






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Nov  3 16:11:50 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:11:50 +0800
Subject: CMR/ARR revisited
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103115159.0894a320@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199711032338.XAA02005@server.test.net>




Jon Callas suggests that CMR has been discussed vigorously.  What was
the outcome?

Here's a short summary of a more secure and less politically
controversial alternative to CMR:

1. Escrow employee company use encryption keys.
2. Don't escrow employee personal use encryption keys.
3. Don't escrow employee company use signature keys.

As pgp5 packet format already supports multiple encryption sub keys
attached to signature keys, all that has to be done to support the
above is to put comments in the userID to say what purpose the keys
are for:

Jon Callas <jon at pgp.com> (personal use)
Jon Callas <jon at pgp.com> (company use)

Provide support in the business verion of the software to escrow the
company use key.  Provide support for both company use and personal
use keys.  If some companies want to disallow personal use, you might
consider adding this feature.


The above is already provided for without CMR/ARR.

CMR/ARR fields add political and security risks, so why bother?


So what is PGP Inc's position on the future of CMR?

Is it going to be phased out?

Is it going in the OpenPGP standard?

Are there any security, privacy or political objections to local
escrow?

Enciphering minds want to know...

Adam






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov  3 16:42:16 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:42:16 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
Message-ID: <iNX3RsnMvFVAxjTpyHr4HQ==@bureau42.ml.org>



Lucky Green wrote:

>Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
>this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows
>this. He simply hopes that there are some people that don't know this. The
>idea behind the original post and others like it over the last few days is
>to spread FUD about PGP 5.0 after other attacks failed for lack of merrit.
>If you repeat a lie often enough, eventually some people will believe you.
>PSYOPS 101. Let's not fall for it.

>[Yes, I know that DSA keys can not be read by PGP 2.6. Neither will Word
>1.0 read Word 7.0 files. So what?]

Let me guess, Lucky, you're using Windows, right? If I was a Windows user
exclusively I probably wouldn't give a damn either. Robert's version is
compatable because he's gone to strides to *make* it compatable. Most users
haven't done this.

PGP Inc. has taken a *multi-platform* *network-wide* system and broken it.
They released a Windows version months ago completely severing lines of
communication between 5.0 and 2.x users. 

Finally, after months, they get around to releasing a UNIX version so that
everybody else can use PGP 5.x. Of course the damned thing *still* isn't
stable, *still* has a timebomb in it, and *still* has the command line
broken. PGP Inc. recommends that people report bugs, get new versions, etc.
at http://beta.pgp.com, but as was covered in detail in another posting that
site is a pretty much disabled (or incomplete if you want to think of it
that way).

Microsoft Word is something completely different. We aren't distributing
Word 7.0 documents all over the Internet as a standard communications
practice.

When I encrypt a message to you using PGP 2.6, I'm using a version of a
program which is released for certain platforms. When I encrypt a message to
you using PGP 5.0 I'm using a version which is released for certain
platforms, but not all the platforms 2.x was available on. 5.x produces
messages which are incompatable with 2.x. As a result 2.x users, which
includes the UNIX community (which, last I checked, was rather large), 
are excluded from the message traffic the Windows users are sending
around. Of course I'm talking about signatures and sometimes encryption, 
but, again, last I checked that was a major reason to use PGP in the first 
place.

Then again, given the quality of the average Window user's message traffic
on the network today maybe that isn't such a great loss.

It should be worthy of note that I'd be using one of the betas for 5.x right
now if the PGP folks hadn't purposefully broken every script known to man. I
can comment out the timebomb for the expired (i.e. broken in yet another
way) versions they're releasing, or at least were as of last week.

Let's redefine SMTP, NNTP, FTP, and HTTP so that they looks nothing like what 
currently exists, install it on major providers, and write a set of UNIX 
clients. When Windows and Mac users complain about this we can all stand up 
proudly and proclaim that they'll just have to wait a few months for somebody 
to write the software which will allow them to again take part, and that their
complaining about this completely idiotic tactic is "FUD". And, of course,
since the SMTP2, NNTP2, HTTP2, and FTP2 protocols are so much better than
their previous versions (that wouldn't be too hard) this is all very smart and
nobody should mind.

If PGP Inc. had released a sane UNIX version along with their Mac and
Winblows versions there would be considerably less bitching happening right
now. Hell, they could have released patches for 2.6. Instead they've waited 
months and still don't have one out which works.






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Nov  3 16:50:47 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:50:47 +0800
Subject: www.cypherpunks.to
In-Reply-To: <999fc34491ff840a6074ef2fcc763b96@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971104013155.28262B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.

The server works fine and I can reach it from the US.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From emc at wire.insync.net  Mon Nov  3 16:51:13 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:51:13 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman Must Bite My Johnson
In-Reply-To: <199711032057.MAA08856@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <199711040037.SAA08312@wire.insync.net>



One of those Ranting, Spewing, anti-Porn FemiNazis Belches:
 
> Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
> Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the
> freezing drizzle.
 
Thus the "right" of parents to subject their minor children to
freezing drizzle, but not naked pictures, is affirmed.
 
> me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> them.
 
Actually, many of us have known for a long time that "child
protection" is just a codeword for "child disempowerment." Thanks for
confirming this.
 
The parents who whine the loudest about porn are the same parents who
want a Constitutional Ammendment declaring that those who do not vote
have no civil liberties, that anything short of lasting physical
injury is not abuse, and that the goverment has no power to interfere
with the "right" of parents to do as they wish to their slaves.
 
Fortunately, the Net is and will continue to be a level playing field,
which is ability-based, and not age-based.
 
> Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be taken
> from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.
 
Perish the thought.  I mean, it is inconceivable to some people that
any minor inconvenience on the part of some adult is not worth entire
gas chambers full of people under 18.
 
> I have to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not
> many, I would say. Someone on this list, I forget who, has made
> numerous attempts at convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to
> children.
 
One wonders why the first word out of the mouth of any self-righteous
scumbag sexuophobic parent when they are disagreed with is - "You
obviously don't have children."
 
> It is exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have
> shown that an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a
> second, within five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in
> the brain. Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in
> a child.
 
"Change" is not the same as "damage." Of course you probably regard
anyone as damaged who is not a frothing sexually inhibited lunatic
like yourself.
 
> So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
> happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does
> help to blur the lines of reality.
 
"Puritanism" might be defined as the fear that someone, somewhere, is
having a porn-induced orgasm.  Stable people tend to worry about their
own orgasms, and not their neighbors.  Perhaps if you had a few
orgasms yourself, you might lose interest in the orgasms of others.
 
[Nonsense Deleted]
 
Please bite my enormous throbbing love sausage with an ice cube in your
mouth. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 
 






From vznuri at netcom.com  Mon Nov  3 16:55:14 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:55:14 +0800
Subject: NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict
Message-ID: <199711040042.QAA13874@netcom8.netcom.com>




------- Forwarded Message

From: KALLISTE at delphi.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 02:51:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SNET: NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran War
To: snetnews at world.std.com


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

       NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict

                    by J. Orlin Grabbe

	One of the dirty little secrets of the 1980s is that 
the U.S. regularly provided Iraq's Saddam Hussein with 
top-secret communication intercepts by the U.S. National 
Security Agency (NSA).  Consider the evidence.

	When in 1991 the government of Kuwait paid the 
public relations firm of Hill & Knowlton ten million 
dollars to drum up American war fever against the evil 
dictator Hussein, it brought about the end of a long legacy 
of cooperation between the U.S. and Iraq.  Hill & 
Knowlton resurrected the World War I propaganda story 
about German soldiers roasting Belgian babies on 
bayonets, updated in the form of a confidential witness 
(actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the 
U.S.) who told Congress a tearful story of Iraqi soldiers 
taking Kuwaiti babies out of incubators and leaving them 
on the cold floor to die.  President George Bush then 
repeated this fabricated tale in speeches ten times over the 
next three days.

	What is remarkable about this staged turn of 
events is that, until then, Hussein had operated largely 
with U.S. approval.  This cooperation had spanned three 
successive administrations, starting with Jimmy Carter.  
As noted by John R. MacArthur, "From 1980 to 1988, 
Hussein had shouldered the burden of killing about 
150,000 Iranians, in addition to at least thirteen thousand 
of his own citizens, including several thousand unarmed 
Kurdish civilians, and in the process won the admiration 
and support of elements of three successive U.S. 
Administrations" [1].

	Hussein's artful slaughter of Iranians was aided by 
good military intelligence.  The role of NSA in the 
conflict is an open secret in Europe, the Middle East, and 
Asia.  Only in this country has there been a relative news 
blackout, despite the fact that it was the U.S. 
administration that let the crypto cat out of the bag.  

	First, U.S. President Ronald Reagan informed the 
world on national television that the United States was 
reading Libyan communications.  This admission was part 
of a speech justifying the retaliatory bombing of Libya for 
its alleged involvement in the La Belle discotheque 
bombing in Berlin's Schoeneberg district, where two U.S. 
soldiers and a Turkish woman were killed, and 200 others 
injured. Reagan wasn't talking about American 
monitoring of Libyan news broadcasts. Rather, his "direct, 
precise, and undeniable proof"  referred to secret 
(encrypted) diplomatic communication between Tripoli 
and the Libyan embassy in East Berlin.

	Next, this leak was compound by the U.S. 
demonstration that it was also reading secret Iranian 
communications.  As reported in Switzerland's Neue 
Z�rcher Zeitung,  the U.S. provided the contents of 
encrypted Iranian messages to France to assist in the 
conviction of Ali Vakili Rad and Massoud Hendi for the 
stabbing death in the Paris suburb of Suresnes of the 
former Iranian prime minister Shahpour Bakhtiar and his 
personal secretary Katibeh Fallouch. [2]
	
	What these two countries had in common was they 
had both purchased cryptographic communication 
equipment from the Swiss firm Crypto AG. Crypto AG 
was founded in 1952 by the (Russian-born) Swedish 
cryptographer Boris Hagelin who located his company in  
Zug.  Boris had created the "Hagelin-machine", a 
encryption device similar to the German "Enigma".  The 
Hagelin machine was used on the side of the Allies in 
World War II.

	Crypto AG was an old and venerable firm, and 
Switzerland was a neutral country. So Crypto AG's 
enciphering devices for voice communication and digital 
data networks were popular, and customers came from 
130 countries. These included the Vatican, as well the 
governments of Iraq, Iran, and Libya.  Such countries 
were naturally skeptical of cryptographic devices sold in 
many NATO countries, so turned to relatively neutral 
Switzerland for communication security.

	Iran demonstrated its suspicion about the source of 
the leaks, when it arrested Hans Buehler, a top salesman 
for Crypto AG, in Teheran on March 18, 1992.  During 
his nine and a half months of solitary confinement in Evin 
prison in Teheran, Buehler was questioned again and 
again whether he had leaked Teheran's codes or Libya's 
keys to Western powers.  Luckily Buehler didn't know 
anything.  He in fact believed in his own sales pitch that 
Crypto AG was a neutral company and its equipment was 
the best.  They were Swiss, after all.  [3]

	Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for 
Buehler's release in January 1993, then promptly fired 
him once they had reassured themselves that he hadn't 
revealed anything important under interrogation, and 
because Buehler had begun to ask some embarrassing 
questions. Then reports appeared on Swiss television, 
Swiss Radio International, all the major Swiss papers, and 
in German magazines like Der Spiegel.  Had Crypto AG's 
equipment been spiked by Western intelligence services? 
the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4].

	 Swiss television traced the ownership of Crypto 
AG to a company in Liechtenstein, and from there back to 
a trust company in Munich. A witness appearing on Swiss 
television explained the real owner was the German 
government--the Federal Estates Administration. [5]

	According to Der Spiegel, all but 6 of the 6000 
shares of Crypto AG were at one time owned by Eugen 
Freiberger, who resided in Munich and was head of the 
Crypto AG managing board in 1982. Another German, 
Josef Bauer, an authorized tax agent of the Muenchner 
Treuhandgesellschaft KPMG, and who was elected to the 
managing board in 1970, stated that his mandate had 
come from the German company Siemens.  Other 
members of Crypto AG's management had also worked at 
Siemens. Was the German secret service, the 
Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), hiding behind the 
Siemens' connection?

	So it would seem.  Der Spiegel reported that in 
October 1970, a secret meeting of the BND had discussed 
how the Swiss company Graettner could be guided into 
closer cooperation with Crypto AG, or could even merged 
with it. The BND additionally considered how "the 
Swedish company Ericsson could be influenced through 
Siemens to terminate its own cryptographic business." [6]

	A former employee of Crypto AG reported that he 
had to coordinate his developments with "people from 
Bad Godesberg". This was the location of the "central 
office for encryption affairs" of the BND, and the service 
instructed Crypto AG what algorithms to use to create the 
codes.  The employee also remembers an American 
"watcher", who strongly demanded the use of certain 
encryption methods.

	Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG 
often. A memorandum of  a secret workshop at Crypto 
AG in August 1975, where a new prototype of an 
encryption device was demonstrated, mentions the 
participation of Nora L. Mackebee, an NSA 
cryptographer. Motorola engineer Bob Newman says that 
Mackebee was introduced to him as a "consultant".  
Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG in the seventies in 
developing a new generation of electronic encryption 
machines.   The Americans "knew Zug very well and gave 
travel tips to the Motorola people for the visit at Crypto 
AG," Newman told Der Spiegel.

	Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto 
AG enciphering process, developed in cooperation with 
the NSA and the German company Siemans, involved 
secretly embedding the decryption key in the cipher text.  
Those who knew where to look could monitor the 
encrypted communication, then extract the decryption key 
that was also part of the transmission, and recover the 
plain text message.  Decryption of a message by a 
knowledgeable third party was not any more difficult that 
it was for the intended receiver.  (More than one method 
was used.  Sometimes the algorithm was simply deficient, 
with built-in exploitable weaknesses.)

	Crypto AG denies all this, of course, saying such 
reports are ""pure invention".

	What information was provided to Saddam 
Hussein exactly?  Answers to this question are currently 
being sought in a lawsuit against NSA in New Mexico, 
which has asked to see "all Iranian messages and 
translations between January 1, 1980 and June 10, 1996". 
[7]

	The passage of top-secret communications 
intelligence to someone like Saddam Hussein brings up 
other questions.  Which dictator is the U.S. passing top 
secret messages to currently?  Jiang Zemin?  Boris 
Yeltsin?  

	Will Saddam Hussein again become a recipient of 
NSA largess if he returns to the mass slaughter of 
Iranians?  What exactly is the purpose of NSA anyway?

	One more question:  Who is reading the Pope's 
communications?

                   Bibliography

[1] John R. MacArthur, Second Front: Censorship and 
Propaganda in the Gulf War, Hill and Wang, New York, 
1992.

[2] Some of the background of this assassination can be 
found in "The Tehran Connection," Time Magazine, 
March 21, 1994.

[3] The Buehler case is detailed in Res Strehle, 
Verschleusselt: der Fall Hans Beuhler, Werd Verlag, 
Zurich, 1994.  

[4] "For years, NSA secretly rigged Crypto AG machines 
so that U.S. eavesdroppers could easily break their codes, 
according to former company employees whose story is 
supported by company documents,"  "No Such Agency, 
Part 4: Rigging the Game," The Baltimore Sun, December 
4, 1995.

[5] Reported in programs about the Buehler case that were 
broadcast on Swiss Radio International on May 15, 1994 
and July 18, 1994.

[6]  "Wer ist der befugte Vierte?":  Geheimdienste 
unterwandern den Schutz von Verschlusselungsgeraten," 
Der Spiegel 36, 1996.

[7] U.S. District Court for the District of New Mexico, 
William H. Payne, Arthur R. Morales, Plaintiffs, v. 
Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, Director 
of National Security Agency, National Security Agency, 
Defendant, CIV NO 97 0266 SC/DJS.



- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo at world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: KALLISTE at delphi.com


------- End of Forwarded Message






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 17:18:16 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:18:16 +0800
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
Message-ID: <v03102801b08411aba8bb@[207.167.93.63]>




A few weeks ago I said that I thought the real reason for PGP's CMR
features and Policy Management Agent had little to do with the reasons
being discussed (by PGP employees, amongst others), things like "What if
Joe is not at his desk and his boss wants to access his encrypted e-mail?"
(and variants).

 I explicitly speculated that the real reason had more to do with snooping
on employees, with the corporate security and IS departments monitoring
what is being sent and received, etc. I even mentioned compliance with SEC,
FTC, and other agency rules.

(And I'm not saying such compliance isn't a valid concern, even a mandated
concern. And I'm not questioning the property rights of business owners to
enforce policies on their property with their equipment as they see fit. I
just think PGP is being disingenuous in saying they are not actually
building in snoopware. They are, and the very same objections Phil
Zimmermann had to Viacrypt's snoopware applies to PGP 5.5 and its "Policy
Management Agent.")

Well, it appears the real reason is now emerging.

In the 1997-10-27 issue of "Macweek," an article on corporate use of
crypto, including PGP, appears. "Mac encryption finding its way into
corporations," by Larry Stevens, p. 27.

Much discussion of crypto, symmetric vs. asymmetric approaches, reasons
companies haven't been using crypto, etc.

The final paragraph summarizes a key point:

"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
regulations.""

Note: I presume "IT" stands for Information Technology, or somesuch. That
is, some corporate Information Services or Computer Services group. In
other words, snoops in some department need to use the Policy Management
Agent to monitor messages.

Perhaps PGP, Inc. will say that Gartner Group does not speak for them. Fair
enough. But I think the Gartner comments correctly capture the real reason
we hear that corporations are insisting on snoopware.

And, incredibly dangerously for us all, why the SEC, FTC, OSHA, IRS, and
other agencies may seize on CMR as a feature which "must" be turned on,
with archives of messages kept, etc. Were I a bureaucrat in their shoes, I
know I would certainly want CMR mandated. "Not for Big Brother, but to
ensure compliance with corporate regulatory rules."

This is the dangerous world PGP, Inc. is helping to build. And I expect now
that RSADSI will enter this snoopware arms race and thus the escalation
will begin in earnest.

Sadly, had PGP kept true to its core foundations of personal privacy, it
might have been able to exert some moral guidance and slow down this
headlong rush into a snoopware world. But by becoming the annointed leader
of Corporate Message Recovery and Policy Management Agent products, the
other companies can jump in with their own snoopware products, pointing to
PGP. Sad. Very sad.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 17:22:00 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:22:00 +0800
Subject: Need info! / Re: Export a random number, go to jail
Message-ID: <199711040106.CAA04679@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:46 AM -0700 11/3/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:
> 
> >: One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
> >: forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
> >: exportable.
> >
> >If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
> >pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
> >that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
> >contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
> >authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
> >all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
> >EAR.
> 
> "Export a random number, go to jail."

Is it legal to export '37'?
How about '148'?
'276'?
'3,289,534'?
'6.33458'?

Thanks,
A Fucking Iditot







From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 17:22:01 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:22:01 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345E7485.1A49@dev.null>



Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> Monger: 
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.

  So you approve of my therapeutic self-abuse during email exchanges?
Looks like internet communication *does* help people to put aside
their differences and reach a common ground.

> By the way...for whatever it's worth:

  On the CypherPunks list, the going rate is $.02

> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

  It's OK, I won't tell anyone you killed Jesus.

> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.

  Only from your pictures on the 'Amateur Action' web site.

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

  I am happy that you are able to find joy and increased self-esteem 
in imputing specific motives and emotives to the mad ramblings of an
obviously raving fucking lunatic, such as myself.
  Like yourself, I have very little idea of just what it was you were 
really trying to express in _your_ rambling semi-coherent missive,
and, the truth be known, I was just trying to make small talk while
trying to work up the courage to ask you if you were wearing any
panties, but I chickened out when I remembered what a savage beating
Cynthia Brown (a girl cypherpunk) gave me when I asked her.

> Jodi Hoffman   T.R.A.M.P.  http://www.go_sin.com/tramp
> Violation of Children/Research & Education Council of America

  Thanks for replying to my email. It's the first one I ever got.
Everyone else just ignores me. Go figure...

TruthMonger






From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 17:34:05 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:34:05 +0800
Subject: Higher Horses / Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <01bce8be$792f3b20$d27f61ce@dave>
Message-ID: <345E6D7D.2474@dev.null>



Wannabe Smart, in a searching for the right caliber of logic, wrote: 
> Dear Jodi-
> So occasionally I like to turn these arguments around in my head:

  Why bother, when there are so many people already willing to do
it for you?

> What if I wanted to protect
> my children from the evils of Christianity?  Could I
> ban that from the internet with the same sort of
> high horse the anti-porn people seem to be riding?

  That's it! The answer is 'Higher Horses'!!!

> The other bits in her letter (The bible being thrown out
> of public schools for example) were just plain lies.

  Beware of Christians bearing facts...
 
> It's sad that when most of America has to chose between
> its essential freedoms and the most trivial of
> protection from objectionable thought, that we chose
> to lose the freedoms.

  Is that 'regular' choice, 'voluntary-mandatory' choice, or
a new type of choice which is currently being developed in
secret underground labs by reptilian Nazis?

  Higher 'Trojan' Horses...yeah!...

TruthMonger







From ryan at michonline.com  Mon Nov  3 17:36:16 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:36:16 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971103164317.18441C-100000@king>




> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.

More so than any other event lasting three-tenths of a second?  I doubt
it. Visual centers of the brain are certinly not predisposed to treat
natural acts (even if depicted in somewhat unusal circumstances) as any
different than any other visual stimuli.  You're distorting the issue
geratly here.

> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

In what sense?  In the sense that the child's view of the world doesn't
fully agree with yours?  Or in the sense that there is actual physical
damage to the brain that imparis the brains ability to function?  I might
believe that the former occurs, but not the latter.  



>So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
>happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
>to blur the lines of reality.

Name calling really doesn't help contribute to a clear view of reality
either.


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH
>THE REALITY:
>Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
>physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
[...]
>without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
>slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
>random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
>who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
>parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
>Soviet Union.

Who are you blaming for this?  the media or the parents that are
neglecting their duties as parents?  If you want a child to have certain
values and bleief structures, you must teach them those structures when
they are young.  You can't ignore them and expect the TV to do the job for
oyu.  If you're complaining about problems in the youth, the blame is
squarely on the shoulders of parents who don't take care of their children
or talk to them.

>The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
>nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
>good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
>it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

When these same children are increasingly treated in such a way as to have
no control over their own lives, and when their parents seem to be
driving the country into the ground, what kind of attitude do you expect?
This attitude is a mirror of the prevailing attitude in the country, and
those people that have become large-scale media figures.  The fact that
*Mike Tyson* can draw over $50 million dollars for a stupid boxing match
does nothing to improve the attitudes of today's youth.  


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
>Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
>governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A

IF this matieral offends you, eliminate it from your viewing habits, and
instruct your children as to why these types of material are offensive.

But you must remember, our Constitution was built upon the tenets of not
enforcing one person's religious beliefs upon another.  The Mayflower came
over to avoid religious persecution, the Quakers came over for similar
reasons.  Ignoring the fact that they immediately went on a were no
better, the country holds a tenet of reiligous tolerance.  This extends to
those areas where we may find things strange and offensive.  Buddhists,
(my spelling may be wrong, let me apologize now for that), etc, may have
religious observances that just make no sense to you, some may even
include ritual homosexuality.  You can't seek ot impose your belief
structure, (which is by far the minority int eh world) on the rest of the
world! 

>particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
>"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
>pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
>Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
>submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
>showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.

And you think the Ancient Greeks and Romans felt any different about the
roots of the Christian religion?  Look for the symbology behind the art.
Perhaps the artist is trying to demonstrate his frustration with the
religions today in their unquestioning belief in mythical figures and
their lack of acceptance of a chanign culture?  Maybe not, may he just
wanted to make fun of the4 savior so he'd be guarnateed a chance to meet
Satan.  

>This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
>cold, hard reality.

And the other cold-hard reality is that the media doesn't give a damn what
th epeople think - even Labor Unions are left out of this so-called
"left-wing bias".  If you haven't realized it already, there are only 2 or
3 large voices left in the national media that aren't dominated by large
businesses.  (NY Times, Washington Post and Wall Stree Journal are my
picks, Declan, feel free to clarify or expand if you want)  Most of the
rest of the TV stations, Radio stations and newspapers are owned by
sseveral large comapnies, or the networks.  

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
>THE REALITY:
>Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
>history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
>average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
>hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
>have the most open and honest political system in the world. 

The reason the media questions the government and poitns out every
instance of corruption they can find is so that we maintain our position
of leadership in open and honest government.  If they don't question
things that seem wrong, things will only get worse.

We *are* worse off now than 50 years ago.  I live near Detroit, and go to
school and work in Detroit.  Detroit is a city suffering from a rampant
and immovible city bureacracy that wont' change.  This is something the
local media is gradually attempting to expose and force to improve,
because the area wants to see the city continue its improvemtns!

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
>THE REALITY:
>Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
>Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
>trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
>halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
>timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
>conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
>than in any other nation in the world.

Environmental concerns are almost never trivial.  We can afford a few
trivial environmental concerns if they help us stop wiping out the planet.
We are running dangerously low in old-growth forest, El-Nino is a yearly
occurence now when it used to occur once ever 7.  We have serious global
warming concerns at this point, and we have serious ground-water depletion
and contamination problems.  

Animal rights activists would never have developed any public sympathy if
it weren't for ridiculous abuses by cosmetic companies and drug companies.
(Yes, they really did kill thousands of animals for studies of dubious
value)


>Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
>or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
>them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead

ahahahahaha, these have gotten *much* more press and concern that any of
the above issues.  Any mention of these creates problems in *any*
political campaign.


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
>THE REALITY:
>If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
>by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
>other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
>a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
>in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.

There is little to no porography being distribute in our schools.  And the
Supreme Court has rulesd that teaching *any* religion in public schools is
tantamount to the government favoring that religion over others.  If you
can't see that this is a clear violoation of the Constitution, you're not
reading it very well.

>Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
>the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
>international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
>condemnation.

Oh, that's because we feel a moral responsibility to do the right thing
when meddling in foreign affairs.  Frequently we've screwed up and are
attempting to correct for past mistakes.  (Persian Gulf War, for example).
There are limits to our influence in the world.  WE can't force China to
change policies, they could simply ignore us.  


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
>THE REALITY:  The United States is flat broke. It is the number one
>debtor nation on earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000
>(five trillion dollars).  Social programs pay for everything from 
>abortion and homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to
>comprehensive sex education. 


funny.  Many economists have been saying that the debt really doesn't
matter.  The entire western world is debt-ridden in the governments, it
hasn't really affected us a heck of a lot.  Sounds like you're objecting
to public money being spent on those things which offend you, while
ignoring the public money spent on things which don't offend you.

>They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
>health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
>socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

So you don't object to family funded benefits for lesbians?  (Note: I
don't believe they qualify as sodomites even under the wierdest
definitions)  Oh, you also object to all the people who perform oral sex
getting family benefits? doh!

Giving family benefits to all people who are living together, sharing
expenses and loving each other is a truly humane act.  Denying them
because you find their style of life or religion offensive is by far the
more evil act.  those who don't marry under state law because that law
doesn't fit their religious belifs get punished under current laws.
(Unless they work for IBM, Microsoft, The University of Michigan, etc)

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
>THE RULE:
>Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
>in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
>religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
>one interest:   Themselves!

Funny.  Whatever happened to Native American beliefs?


>Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
>faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
>one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
>alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
>their problems on society.

They don't have a very successful job at it.  Most blame abusive parents,
and get put in jail anyway.


>We have truly become the "me generation."

Whose fault is that?   I notice that now you seem to be for entitlement
programs, or at least helping others.  Make up your mind.



>RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
>THE REALITY:
>Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
>national product.
>We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
>our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
>(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
>Congress, and

You want the US Military to wander the world picking fights?  Like the
Persian Gulf?  Which was a Bush-administration fuck up in the first place?
A cautious Congress is a much better deal than one that just blindly
authorizes every military action.

Remember the words of our founders (Damit, I forget which one):  Avoid
foreign entaglements.  (Or something to that effect.  I'm braindead and
away from my reference materials right now)

>(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
>it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
>the new and streamlined armed services.

New and streamlined?  bloated with intel and officers, low on combat
troops.  And this reputation is as much the military's fault as anything.
I was talking to some active Marines 3 weeks ago.  They all bitched about
it and wished that they hadn't gone in.  One sargeant, One Corporal, and
one Army Sargeant.   

Most of the US has an enormous respect for the military.  We just don't
think we should use this power very often.  We use it too much as it is.

>Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
>if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.

Where do you get this shit?

>Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

umm. no.  We learned that lesson sometime between world war I and World
War II.  I think it was sometime around December 7, personally.


Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 17:36:58 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:36:58 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711040117.CAA07010@basement.replay.com>



Declan:

>[Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
>reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]

Best way to mobilize a society: give them a Devil to hate. It's much easier
to get people to hate than to love. Blame the Press, the Permissive Society,
the Liberals, the Educational System. Of course, once you get rid of the
Devil, it's usually a good idea to have the slave's collars on everyone
BEFORE they realize the problem's still around.

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
>From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm at ibm.net>
>To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....

[sneck]

>Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
>Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the freezing
>drizzle.  I really thought we could make a difference, standing there
>with our banner and signs, one of which read, "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
>ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT."  Stupid me.  As the saying
>goes...we've come a long way, baby.

You need a song to cheer you up. Try this one:

"There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working-class ties and his radical plans,
He refuses to bend, he refuses to fall,
And he's always at home with his back to the wall.
He's proud of the scars and the battles he's lost
And he struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross,
And he likes to be known as the angry young man."

                    --Billy Joel, "Angry Young Man"

[sneck]

>So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
>happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
>to blur the lines of reality.

You clearly need a better country to live in. I suggest China; they have a
long history of keeping impure materials out of the hands of the easily
influenced sheeple. If you have trouble there, perhaps Singapore, Iraq,
Syria, or Lebanon would be more to your liking. If you're interested in a
proven weight-loss program, maybe North Korea is your best bet. 

[sneck]

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

Done already, by the gub'mint. Kids can't read or write at all nowadays,
despite the high level of per-pupil spending.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA

Done already, by the FCC and the religious right.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE

Done already, by the actions of mudsucker politicians who seek re-election
at any cost, even the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. "I think
I'll vote Demopublican this year, or maybe Republicrat. I have such a
hard time telling their extremist positions apart."

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING

I could claim this was the reason Usenet was created, but I'm not a
conspiracy buff. Of course, on C-SPAN, we can see politicians ranting
at each other, the President, and nothing at all.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR

The religious right again.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT

See if you can guess who said this and when:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
largess out of the public treasury."

Was it:

a) Alexander Tytler, 18th century;
b) Thomas Jefferson, early 1800s;
c) Karl Marx, late 1800s;
d) V. I. Lenin, 1915

Here's a hint: Pick the Scottish historian who lived in the 1700s. So the
concept of a "bankrupt democracy" has been around for a while.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES

Create a climate of fear. Spread uncertainty and doubt among the populace.
Wave the battle flags of pedophilia and terrorism proudly from the ramparts,
so that people gladly give up their liberties to be saved from the Horsemen
of the Apocalypse.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP

If someone were to hang around your child's schoolyard with a full-auto
AK-47, would you scream "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD ON THE ALTAR OF THE
SECOND AMENDMENT"?

>RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES

Hey, that's one rule!

>THE REALITY:
>Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
>national product.

Defense of any kind is wasteful by nature. Even white corpuscles don't do
jack when there's no infection to fight.

>We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
>our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
>(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
>Congress, and
>(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
>it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
>the new and streamlined armed services.

Say what? The last I heard, military recruiting was up because it was a way
to get training in technical areas that might otherwise be impossible for
recruits to learn. (Of course, some people still have to carry rifles...)

>FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.

Land of the Freeh, and the home of the knave. Thanks for making it just a
little worse by your actions.







From chris at cyphercom.com  Mon Nov  3 17:38:55 1997
From: chris at cyphercom.com (Chris Wedgwood)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:38:55 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711040124.OAA22207@cyphercom.com>



Steve Schear <steve at lvdi.net> writes:

[...]

    In the second part, Eric predicted that because of the Net's economics
    and anonymous mailing and publication potential copyrights were on their
    way out.  He acknowledged that some workable method of artist
    compensation was still needed and proposed the movie industry as a
    possible model.  In this scenario a multi-level money collection and
    product distribution scheme would be supported by artist reputation and
    completion bonds.

This is just an observation, I have no idea how true this is and if it is to
what extent, but...

I have several friends who work in the `movie business' and all of these
people claim that the "multi-level money collection" system is in fact a
very poor system.

There is considerable fraud and abuse at all levels (from cinema to
production) which means that the end result is that the artists are no paid
all they are `owed' and that the consumer pays a premium for what they
receive.

Without going into details, I can think of many ways that abuse could indeed
occur and wouldn't necessarily encourage this type of model for 'net
commerce.

Perhaps a similar situation exists with books?



-Chris






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 17:53:59 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:53:59 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
Message-ID: <199711040136.CAA09703@basement.replay.com>



TruthMonger wrote:
>   Thanks for replying to my email. It's the first one I ever got.
> Everyone else just ignores me. Go figure...

Theory #1
TruthMonger's true identity is the ventriloquist dummy from 'Soap'.

Theory #2
Those strange sounds you hear when lying quietly in bed at night?
They are the sound of people slapping their foreheads when they
realize they are arguing with a dummy. (;>}

A. Dummy II






From steve at lvdi.net  Mon Nov  3 18:08:38 1997
From: steve at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:08:38 +0800
Subject: NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict
In-Reply-To: <BkQsuF3gzq4QYXew9s4okA==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03102802b084195fcf84@[208.129.55.202]>



At 5:17 PM +0000 11/3/1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>       NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict
>
>                    by J. Orlin Grabbe
[snip]
>	Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for
>Buehler's release in January 1993, then promptly fired
>him once they had reassured themselves that he hadn't
>revealed anything important under interrogation, and
>because Buehler had begun to ask some embarrassing
>questions. Then reports appeared on Swiss television,
>Swiss Radio International, all the major Swiss papers, and
>in German magazines like Der Spiegel.  Had Crypto AG's
>equipment been spiked by Western intelligence services?
>the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4].
>
[snip]
>
>	Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG
>often. A memorandum of  a secret workshop at Crypto
>AG in August 1975, where a new prototype of an
>encryption device was demonstrated, mentions the
>participation of Nora L. Mackebee, an NSA
>cryptographer. Motorola engineer Bob Newman says that
>Mackebee was introduced to him as a "consultant".
>Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG in the seventies in
>developing a new generation of electronic encryption
>machines.   The Americans "knew Zug very well and gave
>travel tips to the Motorola people for the visit at Crypto
>AG," Newman told Der Spiegel.
>
>	Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto
>AG enciphering process, developed in cooperation with
>the NSA and the German company Siemans, involved
>secretly embedding the decryption key in the cipher text.
>Those who knew where to look could monitor the
>encrypted communication, then extract the decryption key
>that was also part of the transmission, and recover the
>plain text message.  Decryption of a message by a
>knowledgeable third party was not any more difficult that
>it was for the intended receiver.  (More than one method
>was used.  Sometimes the algorithm was simply deficient,
>with built-in exploitable weaknesses.)

As I recall, this topic came up during a Cylink management meeting I
attended in late '92.  My recollection was that Cylink was asked by the
NSA/CIA to 'alter' some of its crypto units, which supposedly were being
sought by a Columbian cartele.  The party line was that we refused.  I
didn't follow up since I wasn't the product manager of that series.

--Steve







From jlhoffm at ibm.net  Mon Nov  3 18:15:04 1997
From: jlhoffm at ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:15:04 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <199711040117.CAA07010@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>



Anonymous wrote:
Jodi Hoffman propagandized:
> >RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
 
> See if you can guess who said this and when:
> 
> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
> largess out of the public treasury."
> 
> Was it:
> 
> a) Alexander Tytler, 18th century;
> b) Thomas Jefferson, early 1800s;
> c) Karl Marx, late 1800s;
> d) V. I. Lenin, 1915
> 
> Here's a hint: Pick the Scottish historian who lived in the 1700s. So the
> concept of a "bankrupt democracy" has been around for a while.

Can I get another hint?

-Jodi






From steve at lvdi.net  Mon Nov  3 18:29:07 1997
From: steve at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:29:07 +0800
Subject: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
In-Reply-To: <199711031235.NAA08077@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b084142d971c@[208.129.55.202]>



At 1:35 PM +0100 11/3/1997, Anonymous wrote:
>Gary Burnore had a mongo page at http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html.
>So did Paul Pomes, Belinda Bryan, and the rest of the Databasix gang.
>Too bad it's down for now, but it'll be back.


This looks like a job for Eternity Man!

--Steve







From berezina at qed.net  Mon Nov  3 18:29:42 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:29:42 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <199711040117.CAA07010@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <345e8076.9040556@mail.qed.net>



>Alexander Tyler wrote:
>> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
>> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
>> largess out of the public treasury."

This assumes there is a "majority of voters". Read James Madison, & kiss a
multiculturalist today.

Now can we get back to denouncing Jewish Nazis?

Paul

http://www,nihidyll.com/attributions.html






From lizard at dnai.com  Mon Nov  3 18:42:33 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:42:33 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103181416.03321944@dnai.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 02:04 AM 11/4/97 GMT, Paul Spirito wrote:
>>Alexander Tyler wrote:
>>> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It 
can only
>>> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote 
themselves
>>> largess out of the public treasury."
>
>This assumes there is a "majority of voters". Read James Madison, & 
kiss a
>multiculturalist today.
>
But what we actually have is countless pluralities voting to rob each 
other. The game would work, except for entropy, in the form of 
transaction costs. With each theft from one group to the other and 
back again, some money is lost -- so the tension between groups 
increases as each demands a larger share of a smaller pie.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF6E9zKf8mIpTvjWEQJqVgCdG36Rp9e5JpDeVNDhvR0PVa3pG/QAoIqH
wcgfeDhIpl8kP4Lz0qkA0W6v
=lktW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From berezina at qed.net  Mon Nov  3 18:51:33 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:51:33 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <346086e2.10685640@mail.qed.net>



Lizard wrote:

>But what we actually have is countless pluralities voting to rob each 
>other. The game would work, except for entropy, in the form of 
>transaction costs. With each theft from one group to the other and 
>back again, some money is lost -- so the tension between groups 
>increases as each demands a larger share of a smaller pie.

No -- you've got it *almost* right -- the negotiating pluralities, entropy
(as metaphor!), & all... but the pie is growing (at between 2% & 3% per
annum). So nearly everyone's content -- enough not to shoot each other,
anyway.

Paul

Her name was Julie; she wore Batman sneakers,
And she laughed when she sang,
"Money can't buy me love!"
North of Petaluma where the 1 meets the 101 --
Oh man, we took a lot of drugs...






From millerd at vhoorl.rli-net.net  Mon Nov  3 19:11:53 1997
From: millerd at vhoorl.rli-net.net (Gabriel Millerd)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:11:53 +0800
Subject: jargon generator
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103181416.03321944@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103205124.31828A-100000@vhoorl.rli-net.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Does anyone have a jargon generator?

- ---
Gabriel Millerd        |   I appreciate the fact that this draft was done in
RLI Internet Services  |     haste, but some of the sentences that you are
System Admin Attribu   |    sending out in the world to do your work for you
http://www.rli-net.net |     are loitering in taverns or asleep beside the
                       |   highway.  -- Dr. Dwight Van de Vate, Professor of
                       |    Philosophy, University of Tennessee at Knoxville

PGP Finger Print
DSS: 1024 0xE760079B = B6D4 DB5B 4990 C79F 00E7  BF4A 1E15 B47A E760 079B
D/H: 4096 0xD53C231B = BC6F C82E FD5C BE0A AF33  607C 8406 4A79 D53C 231B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF6OGB4VtHrnYAebEQIGnQCfUTKDWQI/MZ+ve2uhAoaWoyw4aF0An3U3
E/8+BUMjSgHsy0g1d8M+vTOv
=cn2s
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From rwright at adnetsol.com  Mon Nov  3 19:11:54 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:11:54 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>



From:

http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html

You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
sex-education programs. 


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://ross.adnetsol.com
Voice: (408) 259-2795






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 19:41:18 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:41:18 +0800
Subject: [ON TOPIC] Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711040323.EAA20527@basement.replay.com>



Paul Spirito wrote:
> >Alexander Tyler wrote:
> >> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
> >> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
> >> largess out of the public treasury."
 
> This assumes there is a "majority of voters". Read James Madison, & kiss a
> multiculturalist today.
 
> Now can we get back to denouncing Jewish Nazis?

Sorry, that's off-topic.
You _can_, however, discuss 'Remailer Hating Nazis'...







From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 19:41:23 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:41:23 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <345E93C8.3B51@dev.null>



Paul Spirito wrote:
> Lizard wrote:
> >But what we actually have is countless pluralities voting to rob each
> >other. The game would work, except for entropy, in the form of
> >transaction costs. With each theft from one group to the other and
> >back again, some money is lost -- so the tension between groups
> >increases as each demands a larger share of a smaller pie.
 
> No -- you've got it *almost* right -- the negotiating pluralities, entropy
> (as metaphor!), & all... but the pie is growing (at between 2% & 3% per
> annum). So nearly everyone's content -- enough not to shoot each other,
> anyway.

Close, but no cigar...
Actually, life is a pyramid scheme, people exist to provide fodder for
MLM marketing ventures, and I have 'dibs' on the last living tree.

TruthMonger






From steve at lvdi.net  Mon Nov  3 20:14:46 1997
From: steve at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:14:46 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803b08425599fe3@[208.129.55.202]>



At 1:25 PM -0500 11/3/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
>me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
>nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
>brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
>you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
>society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
>them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
>taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
>to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
>would say.

Daughter and two grandchildren.

>Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
>convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
>exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
>an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
>five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
>Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

Which studies?  By whom?  Have they been independently verified and are
they accepted within the appropriate medical practice?

In any case, the First Amendment stumbling block you mention is all that
stands between enlightenment and darkness.  Personally, I think the SC is
way out of line determining who's moral values are selected in order to
define any aspect of pornography.  The 'Crowded Theater Test' should be
used for all First Amendment decisions: does excercise of this speech
(e.g., yelling, "Fire") directly endanger a particular individual or
explicitly identified individuals, not some faceless group like our youth.
Sexually explicit material should no more be restricted than other
non-sexual expressions (e.g., media violence or information on the
manufacture and use of explosives.)  Since both are protected and widely
available, so should porn of all types, no limits.

--Steve







From jc at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 20:21:57 1997
From: jc at dev.null (Jesus Christ)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:21:57 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345E9DDB.1D94@dev.null>



Jodi "I'm not *really* a Jew, but I play one on the InterNet" Hoffman 
wrote: 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> <snipped, because Jodi CAN'T HANDLE the TruthMonger>
 
> Monger:
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
>
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp

Jodi,
  As you already know, I have been on extended leave from the world
for some time, having gone to visit my Father, to prepare for taking
over the family business.
  I've been catching up on my reading, in preparation for my return
in the near future, and I came across a book, "The Jesus Principle,"
which claimed that the Christian Coalition and the self-proclaimed
Moral Majority were making plans to launch a secret assault on the
electorate, pushing their hidden agendas while covering up the true
source of their Christian propaganda.
  Naturally, I laughed this off as ridiculous, but I seem to be
encountering more and more evidence of this indeed being the case.

  I am particularly perturbed by those who are doing a very, very
bad job of disguising their true intentions, goals, their hidden 
connections and secret agendas.
  In an increasingly InterNet savy world, no one who is paying
attention is going to miss the fact that your webspace is on
The Christian Interactive Network, which goes to great lengths
to make certain that those who visit their web site are made
aware that the CIN "is a 501 C (3) Nonprofit Ministry", and that
"All donations are tax exempt," so that contribitors can shift
the tax burden to non-Christians while using their own tax-exempt
money to support Christian political agendas under the guise of
religion.

  If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
  {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
   Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}

Love,
 ~JC~
"Yes I _do_ *'love'* the little children." <nod-nod, wink-wink>






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Nov  3 20:26:04 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:26:04 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0: Keyservers
Message-ID: <19971104042001.4745.qmail@nym.alias.net>



Out of curiosity, what protection is there for PGP 5.x users submitting keys
to the keyservers? Would it not be trivial for somebody to see what dialup
SLIP link a key is coming from and tie that key to the person submitting it?

That isn't a problem for personal keys, but it is a big problem for
psuedonyms. Is there some kind of mechanism in place for submitting such
keys via anonymous remailers? 

This might already have been covered by other Cypherpunks or the PGP folks.

ParanoiaMonger






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Mon Nov  3 20:41:08 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:41:08 +0800
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710301318.HAA17701@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711040529.XAA03597@smoke.suba.com>



> People kill for religion, politics, insanity, and fun.

	Nope. Economics, survival, revenge, and insanity. 






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Mon Nov  3 20:45:07 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:45:07 +0800
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <b05139e147%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <199711040533.XAA03610@smoke.suba.com>



>  We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the
>  life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in
>  the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a
>  sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified?

	When you can figure out a way to fix the problem without 
stepping on freedoms. Then legislation is justified. 

	Part of the problem is that people _assume_ that legislation fixes
problems. It doesn't. Laws just give society permission to punish the 
offender. In that case we have plenty of laws, it would be rare that we 
would need another.  






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Mon Nov  3 20:49:36 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:49:36 +0800
Subject: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b07e577ec20a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711040544.XAA03652@smoke.suba.com>



> >Tim May wrote:
> Well, now that wouldn't be very smart of me, would it, to tell the world
> where my defensive measures are? (I'm willing to let would-be ninjas know

	Security thru Obscurity Mr. May? Tsk. Tsk.

> >to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
> >happen during these night raids and robberies.
> >
> >Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?

	Get used to running around naked. Your testes are the least of your
concern at that point, and unless you are well outside the normal range, they
shouldn't cause much of a problem (side question...from a evolutionary 
standpoint, given a lack of clothing would "over-endowment" tend to be a 
non-survival trait, or do we not want to go there?).
 
> The usual advice is to secure one's bedroom for immediate invasion. (My
> bedroom is on the second floor, too.) This helps with burglars as well as
> with ninjas. For example, lock the bedroom door. This will slow down
> attackers, who first have to gain access to the main house, then have to
> get in the bedroom. The noise from the first step should provide valuable

	Ladders. I'd bet that any trained "ninja" could get a ladder up 
against the side of a house quietly enough to prevent those inside from waking
and be in thru the window before you could get the gun out from under the 
pillow. 

> seconds of awakening, grabbing a gun, etc. I don't think a locked bedroom
> door will stop an entry team from getting inside in a matter of seconds,
> but every second helps.

	Unless you are using exterior doors, I wouldn't count on more than
1/2 second. 

> (Experts also advise that homeowners facing such assaults "stay put,"
> unless, of course, they have to defend other family members in other rooms.)

	How many people have been thru enough of these to be considered 
experts? Seriously? When the law breaks in, you don't have _time_ to leave. 
Those people train to move fast. 






From hgp at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 21:11:29 1997
From: hgp at dev.null (Human Gus-Peter)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:11:29 +0800
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711040533.XAA03610@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <345EAB8F.927@dev.null>



My uncle wrote, anonymously:
>   I don't own any guns, so I guess when the Feds kick my door in,
> I'll just point at the dog, and hope they go for my clever ruse.
>   Hell, I'm even willing to testify...

"I blamed it on the dog, and all I got was this T-shirt and a spanking!"

Human Gus-Peter






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 21:11:29 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:11:29 +0800
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711040454.FAA00831@basement.replay.com>



snow wrote:
>         Part of the problem is that people _assume_ that legislation fixes
> problems. It doesn't. Laws just give society permission to punish the
> offender. 

Prosecutor: "You should find this nanny guilty of murder because
             young people like to party."
Jury: "Duuhhh...OK!"

  What I find ironically hilarious, offensive and sad, is that there
are still so many new laws being passed, in spite of the fact that
they are no longer really needed.
  Courtrooms now pretty much just serve as an arena for engaging in
the age-old sport of public stoning. Whoever does the best job of
finger pointing, while working the crowd into a frenzy, wins.

  Tim McVeigh was Dead Meat (TM) the minute the judge ruled that
fingers in the courtroom could only be pointed at Terrible Timmy.
  I guess I'm an old fart...I remember when $15 million could buy
you a decent attorney.

  I don't own any guns, so I guess when the Feds kick my door in,
I'll just point at the dog, and hope they go for my clever ruse.
  Hell, I'm even willing to testify...

Not-Me!






From wendigo at ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org  Mon Nov  3 21:48:44 1997
From: wendigo at ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org (Mark Rogaski)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:48:44 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711031755.SAA11526@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711040540.AAA03771@deathstar.jabberwock.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Anonymous wrote:

: 
: You mean Microsoft.  It's foolish to reject encryption software because
: it runs on the OS used by 90% of its customers.

If the software is only available for Windoze, I think it's safe to say
that 100% of it's users use Windoze.  Nonetheless, open standards are 
a very good thing indeed.  This message having reached you is proof of it.

: > No source no security.
: 
: You don't trust Schneier?  You've seen the limitations of source code
: release.  Experts like Schneier and his team designing the crypto is
: worth more than a bunch of know nothings scratching their heads and
: wondering where to begin with 1000+ pages of source code.

If the source were available, there would be no need to trust Schneier.
I trust his expertise, but have no basis (or inclination) to make guesses
about his character.  No matter how many people refer to Applied Crypto as
"a Bible", it's not the kind of book that encourages blind faith.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo at pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF61PMHFI4kt/DQOEQK4WQCgqUi1AX4giMyzycavyaK6GclkN+8AnApT
3QJByal4x6k6lyMd6LNpKoFq
=ymEt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From Abstruse at technologist.com  Mon Nov  3 21:53:47 1997
From: Abstruse at technologist.com (Abstruse)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:53:47 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <345EB20E.6A41@technologist.com>



> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).






From test.test.com at mail.txcc.net  Tue Nov  4 13:54:14 1997
From: test.test.com at mail.txcc.net (test.test.com at mail.txcc.net)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:54:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE
Message-ID: <199711042233.QAA23769@mail.txcc.net>


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From snow at smoke.suba.com  Mon Nov  3 21:58:24 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:58:24 +0800
Subject: To TruthMonger
Message-ID: <199711040544.XAA03985@smoke.suba.com>



Forwarded message:
> snow wrote:
> >         You must live in such a nice world, where the sky is always blue,
> > the grass always green, and the police eager and willing to serve a happy
> > populace.
> >         Can I come live in your world?
> snow
>   take two of the green ones, three of the yellow ones, and four of the
> red ones

	But But But all I have are little pale blue ones, and big honkin 
white ones. 






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 22:01:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:01:05 +0800
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711040552.GAA07032@basement.replay.com>



snow wrote:
> 
> > People kill for religion, politics, insanity, and fun.
> 
>         Nope. Economics, survival, revenge, and insanity.

	Nope. Voices inside my head.






From mbp at pharos.com.au  Mon Nov  3 22:01:16 1997
From: mbp at pharos.com.au (Martin Pool)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:01:16 +0800
Subject: Request for expert opinion and Feedback
In-Reply-To: <v0300784cb079ec72e4ce@[207.94.249.37]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971104153702.1151I-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>



On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> >c) Is there any benefit to implementing the random number generation
> >   system in the Kernel?
> 
> Yes.  In the kernel, you have access to many more hard-to-guess physical
> inputs than an application level program

Have a look at the implementation of the entropy device in Linux and
some other open systems.  Introductory comments are quoted below.
(Excuse the length, as the bishop said.)

Isn't the idea of an 'entropy device' so trippy?

--
Martin Pool



/*
 * random.c -- A strong random number generator
 *
 * Version 1.00, last modified 26-May-96
 * 
 * Copyright Theodore Ts'o, 1994, 1995, 1996.  All rights reserved.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
 * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
 * are met:
 * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
 *    notice, and the entire permission notice in its entirety,
 *    including the disclaimer of warranties.
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
 *    documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
 * 3. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote
 *    products derived from this software without specific prior
 *    written permission.
 * 
 * ALTERNATIVELY, this product may be distributed under the terms of
 * the GNU Public License, in which case the provisions of the GPL are
 * required INSTEAD OF the above restrictions.  (This clause is
 * necessary due to a potential bad interaction between the GPL and
 * the restrictions contained in a BSD-style copyright.)
 * 
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
 * WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES
 * OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE
 * DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT,
 * INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES
 * (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR
 * SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
 * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT,
 * STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)
 * ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED
 * OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
 */

/*
 * (now, with legal B.S. out of the way.....) 
 * 
 * This routine gathers environmental noise from device drivers, etc.,
 * and returns good random numbers, suitable for cryptographic use.
 * Besides the obvious cryptographic uses, these numbers are also good
 * for seeding TCP sequence numbers, and other places where it is
 * desirable to have numbers which are not only random, but hard to
 * predict by an attacker.
 *
 * Theory of operation
 * ===================
 * 
 * Computers are very predictable devices.  Hence it is extremely hard
 * to produce truly random numbers on a computer --- as opposed to
 * pseudo-random numbers, which can easily generated by using a
 * algorithm.  Unfortunately, it is very easy for attackers to guess
 * the sequence of pseudo-random number generators, and for some
 * applications this is not acceptable.  So instead, we must try to
 * gather "environmental noise" from the computer's environment, which
 * must be hard for outside attackers to observe, and use that to
 * generate random numbers.  In a Unix environment, this is best done
 * from inside the kernel.
 * 
 * Sources of randomness from the environment include inter-keyboard
 * timings, inter-interrupt timings from some interrupts, and other
 * events which are both (a) non-deterministic and (b) hard for an
 * outside observer to measure.  Randomness from these sources are
 * added to an "entropy pool", which is mixed using a CRC-like function.
 * This is not cryptographically strong, but it is adequate assuming
 * the randomness is not chosen maliciously, and it is fast enough that
 * the overhead of doing it on every interrupt is very reasonable.
 * As random bytes are mixed into the entropy pool, the routines keep
 * an *estimate* of how many bits of randomness have been stored into
 * the random number generator's internal state.
 * 
 * When random bytes are desired, they are obtained by taking the MD5
 * hash of the contents of the "entropy pool".  The MD5 hash avoids
 * exposing the internal state of the entropy pool.  It is believed to
 * be computationally infeasible to derive any useful information
 * about the input of MD5 from its output.  Even if it is possible to
 * analyze MD5 in some clever way, as long as the amount of data
 * returned from the generator is less than the inherent entropy in
 * the pool, the output data is totally unpredictable.  For this
 * reason, the routine decreases its internal estimate of how many
 * bits of "true randomness" are contained in the entropy pool as it
 * outputs random numbers.
 * 
 * If this estimate goes to zero, the routine can still generate
 * random numbers; however, an attacker may (at least in theory) be
 * able to infer the future output of the generator from prior
 * outputs.  This requires successful cryptanalysis of MD5, which is
 * not believed to be feasible, but there is a remote possibility.
 * Nonetheless, these numbers should be useful for the vast majority
 * of purposes.
 * 
 * Exported interfaces ---- output
 * ===============================
 * 
 * There are three exported interfaces; the first is one designed to
 * be used from within the kernel:
 *
 * 	void get_random_bytes(void *buf, int nbytes);
 *
 * This interface will return the requested number of random bytes,
 * and place it in the requested buffer.
 * 
 * The two other interfaces are two character devices /dev/random and
 * /dev/urandom.  /dev/random is suitable for use when very high
 * quality randomness is desired (for example, for key generation or
 * one-time pads), as it will only return a maximum of the number of
 * bits of randomness (as estimated by the random number generator)
 * contained in the entropy pool.
 * 
 * The /dev/urandom device does not have this limit, and will return
 * as many bytes as are requested.  As more and more random bytes are
 * requested without giving time for the entropy pool to recharge,
 * this will result in random numbers that are merely cryptographically
 * strong.  For many applications, however, this is acceptable.
 *
 * Exported interfaces ---- input
 * ==============================
 * 
 * The current exported interfaces for gathering environmental noise
 * from the devices are:
 * 
 * 	void add_keyboard_randomness(unsigned char scancode);
 * 	void add_mouse_randomness(__u32 mouse_data);
 * 	void add_interrupt_randomness(int irq);
 * 	void add_blkdev_randomness(int irq);
 * 
 * add_keyboard_randomness() uses the inter-keypress timing, as well as the
 * scancode as random inputs into the "entropy pool".
 * 
 * add_mouse_randomness() uses the mouse interrupt timing, as well as
 * the reported position of the mouse from the hardware.
 *
 * add_interrupt_randomness() uses the inter-interrupt timing as random
 * inputs to the entropy pool.  Note that not all interrupts are good
 * sources of randomness!  For example, the timer interrupts is not a
 * good choice, because the periodicity of the interrupts is to
 * regular, and hence predictable to an attacker.  Disk interrupts are
 * a better measure, since the timing of the disk interrupts are more
 * unpredictable.
 * 
 * add_blkdev_randomness() times the finishing time of block requests.
 * 
 * All of these routines try to estimate how many bits of randomness a
 * particular randomness source.  They do this by keeping track of the
 * first and second order deltas of the event timings.
 *
 * Ensuring unpredictability at system startup
 * ============================================
 * 
 * When any operating system starts up, it will go through a sequence
 * of actions that are fairly predictable by an adversary, especially
 * if the start-up does not involve interaction with a human operator.
 * This reduces the actual number of bits of unpredictability in the
 * entropy pool below the value in entropy_count.  In order to
 * counteract this effect, it helps to carry information in the
 * entropy pool across shut-downs and start-ups.  To do this, put the
 * following lines an appropriate script which is run during the boot
 * sequence: 
 *
 *	echo "Initializing random number generator..."
 *	# Carry a random seed from start-up to start-up
 *	# Load and then save 512 bytes, which is the size of the entropy pool
 * 	if [ -f /etc/random-seed ]; then
 *		cat /etc/random-seed >/dev/urandom
 * 	fi
 *	dd if=/dev/urandom of=/etc/random-seed count=1
 *
 * and the following lines in an appropriate script which is run as
 * the system is shutdown:
 * 
 *	# Carry a random seed from shut-down to start-up
 *	# Save 512 bytes, which is the size of the entropy pool
 *	echo "Saving random seed..."
 *	dd if=/dev/urandom of=/etc/random-seed count=1
 * 
 * For example, on many Linux systems, the appropriate scripts are
 * usually /etc/rc.d/rc.local and /etc/rc.d/rc.0, respectively.
 * 
 * Effectively, these commands cause the contents of the entropy pool
 * to be saved at shut-down time and reloaded into the entropy pool at
 * start-up.  (The 'dd' in the addition to the bootup script is to
 * make sure that /etc/random-seed is different for every start-up,
 * even if the system crashes without executing rc.0.)  Even with
 * complete knowledge of the start-up activities, predicting the state
 * of the entropy pool requires knowledge of the previous history of
 * the system.
 *
 * Configuring the /dev/random driver under Linux
 * ==============================================
 *
 * The /dev/random driver under Linux uses minor numbers 8 and 9 of
 * the /dev/mem major number (#1).  So if your system does not have
 * /dev/random and /dev/urandom created already, they can be created
 * by using the commands:
 *
 * 	mknod /dev/random c 1 8
 * 	mknod /dev/urandom c 1 9
 * 
 * Acknowledgements:
 * =================
 *
 * Ideas for constructing this random number generator were derived
 * from the Pretty Good Privacy's random number generator, and from
 * private discussions with Phil Karn.  Colin Plumb provided a faster
 * random number generator, which speed up the mixing function of the
 * entropy pool, taken from PGP 3.0 (under development).  It has since
 * been modified by myself to provide better mixing in the case where
 * the input values to add_entropy_word() are mostly small numbers.
 * Dale Worley has also contributed many useful ideas and suggestions
 * to improve this driver.
 * 
 * Any flaws in the design are solely my responsibility, and should
 * not be attributed to the Phil, Colin, or any of authors of PGP.
 * 
 * The code for MD5 transform was taken from Colin Plumb's
 * implementation, which has been placed in the public domain.  The
 * MD5 cryptographic checksum was devised by Ronald Rivest, and is
 * documented in RFC 1321, "The MD5 Message Digest Algorithm".
 * 
 * Further background information on this topic may be obtained from
 * RFC 1750, "Randomness Recommendations for Security", by Donald
 * Eastlake, Steve Crocker, and Jeff Schiller.
 */






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 22:16:08 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:16:08 +0800
Subject: 
Message-ID: <199711040559.GAA07579@basement.replay.com>



>On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>> If I were someone who wanted to make the internet look like a place 
>> that needed STRONG governmental controls I would put the words 
>> terrorists,criminals,pornographers,drug dealers/addicts,
>
>Fnord.
>

I have been wondering about all the media attention on "aids assasins"
recently. 

"With a national list of people infected with the HIV virus, people could
be more informed about the people they choose to have sex with"

	I'm sure that this national list will never be used by corporations when
hiring people. It will also never be used to discredit people either, who
would say "why are you listening to him, he is a faggot" or "he hangs out
with fags, you know how all fags are."






From aleph at cco.caltech.edu  Mon Nov  3 22:18:51 1997
From: aleph at cco.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:18:51 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103220718.00c60100@pop-server.caltech.edu>



I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
children the truth instead of made up fantasies.  Unreasonable fear is very
harmful to anyone's mental health, especially children.
At 06:59 PM 11/3/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>From:
>
>http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
>
>You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
>normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
>encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
>were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
>harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
>sex-education programs. 
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Ross Wright
>King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
>http://ross.adnetsol.com
>Voice: (408) 259-2795
>
>


                             -Colin






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov  3 22:23:48 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:23:48 +0800
Subject: Funding Cypherpunks Action Projects
Message-ID: <ezZ9JcCe5YIP5Wuq7tdZFQ==@bureau42.ml.org>



I have worked out a plan whereby we can auction off the role of
Cypherpunks Chief Spokesperson in order to fund CAP's.
The idea for a Spokesperson pyramid scheme came to me after
realizing that the list has not only a variety of individuals
competing as the chief list 'Fed baiters', but also quite a
number of people who enjoy 'Christian baiting', as well:

TruthMonger, playing with his private parts, wrote:
>  Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
> Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
> her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
> at others?
> Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
> If it saves the life of just one child...

Eric Cordian spit out:
> "Puritanism" might be defined as the fear that someone, somewhere, is
> having a porn-induced orgasm.  Stable people tend to worry about their
> own orgasms, and not their neighbors.  Perhaps if you had a few
> orgasms yourself, you might lose interest in the orgasms of others.
> [Nonsense Deleted]
> Please bite my enormous throbbing love sausage with an ice cube in your
> mouth. 

Jesus Christ wrote:
> If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
> that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
>  {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
>   Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}

There is no telling how much money we could raise by appealing to
the macho male egos on the list who lock horns in CypherPissing 
cock-size wars, if we were to take bids on the honor of being the
Cypherpunks' authorized 'Fed-baiter' or 'Christian-pisser', etc.

Given the wide variety of individuals, groups, organizations, 
corporations, government agencies, etc., which have been the
target of vicious attacks on this list, there is no end of the
number of CypherPisser Ambassadorships we could invent to fill
the Cypherpunks Action Projects coffers.

Cypherpunks Chief MLM Spokesman






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 22:38:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:38:46 +0800
Subject: www.cypherpunks.to
Message-ID: <199711040625.HAA10218@basement.replay.com>



Lucky Green wrote:
> > What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.
> 
> The server works fine and I can reach it from the US.

I tried www.cypherpunks.to and couldn't get connected.
I dropped the www and got sent to the www site.

And the root password there is...






From frantz at netcom.com  Mon Nov  3 22:52:48 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:52:48 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03110705b084525031c5@[207.94.249.121]>



A couple of real-world examples to go with your (good) ideas:

* Richard Stallman gives away the software, but sells the support.  This
technique has the perverse incentive for the author to make the software
require support.

* The Grateful Dead permitted taping at their concerts and did not object
to the non-commercial exchange of the tapes.  It is hard to tell whether
they made most of their money from performances or from sales of
recordings.  In general musicians can make money from live performance.
(Song writers have a different problem, more like that of poets.)

BTW - Marc Steigler tells me he has had a story accepted at Analog (but not
yet published) called something like, "The future of (eat more cheetos)
Copyright."

Cheers - Bill


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From hgp at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 22:55:12 1997
From: hgp at dev.null (Human Gus-Peter)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:55:12 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103220718.00c60100@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <345EC47E.462C@dev.null>



Colin A. Reed wrote:
> 
> I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
> promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
> monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
> now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
> Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
> children the truth instead of made up fantasies.

At the risk of sounding like a Bible-basher, I have to admit that
I used to regard an inordinate number of Christians as ignorant,
until I found out that many of them are quite simply being very
deceptive about their nonsensical, party-platform claims.
To tell the truth, I respected them more when I thought they
were just ignorant.

Most of the prosetylizing that I have been subjected to consists of
vague, unsubtantiated claims, followed by prophetic pronouncements
of 'the way things are', backed up by quoting the same prophetic
pronouncements to 'prove' this or that point.

Let me state that I think there are a great many 'good' Christians
in the world. i.e. - the ones that leave me the fuck alone!






From frantz at netcom.com  Mon Nov  3 22:55:17 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:55:17 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
In-Reply-To: <199711021554.KAA07184@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03110706b0845d62cbf5@[207.94.249.121]>



At 8:14 AM -0800 11/2/97, Tim May wrote:
>One of the more interesting images I ever saw was a photo in one of the gun
>mags of a friendly meeting in the U.S. between Eugene Stoner, principal
>designer of the AR-15 (the M-16 in its military version) and Mikhail
>Kalashnikov, whose name needs no further explanation.
>
>I suppose tree-hugging peaceniks would be aghast at a meeting between these
>two merchants of death. I, being an antigovernment type, was nevertheless
>impressed.

As a tree-hugging, peacenick, gun lover, I would have loved to hear the
conversation.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From aleph at cco.caltech.edu  Mon Nov  3 23:12:51 1997
From: aleph at cco.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:12:51 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103230305.00c574c0@pop-server.caltech.edu>



Oops, I meant unreasoning below.  Very different meaning.

At 10:07 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Colin A. Reed wrote:
>I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
>promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
>monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
>now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
>Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
>children the truth instead of made up fantasies.  Unreasonable fear is very
>harmful to anyone's mental health, especially children.
>At 06:59 PM 11/3/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>>From:
>>
>>http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
>>
>>You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
>>normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
>>encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
>>were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
>>harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
>>sex-education programs. 
>>
>>
>>=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>Ross Wright
>>King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
>>http://ross.adnetsol.com
>>Voice: (408) 259-2795
>>
>>
>
>
>                             -Colin
>
>


                             -Colin






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Nov  3 23:18:13 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:18:13 +0800
Subject: www.cypherpunks.to
In-Reply-To: <199711040625.HAA10218@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971104080834.29620A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> Lucky Green wrote:
> > > What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.
> > 
> > The server works fine and I can reach it from the US.
> 
> I tried www.cypherpunks.to and couldn't get connected.
> I dropped the www and got sent to the www site.

Seems there is an intermittent DNS problem. The machines alter ego,
http://pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to/ seems unaffected.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl  Tue Nov  4 15:19:34 1997
From: R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl (Ray Hirschfeld)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:19:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Final Call for Papers
Message-ID: <UTC199711042318.AAA06490.ray@prauw.cwi.nl>


		      Financial Cryptography '98
		   Second International Conference
		 February 23-26, 1998, Anguilla, BWI
			FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '98 (FC98) is a conference on the security of
digital financial transactions.  Meetings alternate between the island
of Anguilla in the British West Indies and other locations.  This
second meeting will be held in Anguilla on February 23-26, 1998.  FC98
aims to bring together persons involved in both the financial and data
security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas.

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including

    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility       
    Authentication                          Home Banking       
    Communication Security                  Identification     
    Conditional Access                      Implementations    
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance     
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms 
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects      
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments      
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments   
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues     
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues  
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards        
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability


Instructions for Authors:

Send a cover letter and 12 copies of an extended abstract to be
received by November 17, 1997 (or postmarked by November 7, 1997 and
sent via airmail) to the Program Chair at the address given below.

The extended abstract (a short draft of the full paper, typically 10
pages in length) should start with the title, the names of the
authors, and an abstract followed by a succinct statement appropriate
for a non-specialist reader specifying the subject addressed, its
background, the main achievements, and their significance to financial
data security.  Submissions are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of
12pt type.  Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to
authors no later than January 12, 1998.

Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will
be presented at the conference.


Proceedings:

Proceedings of the conference will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.
Instructions and deadlines for submission of final papers will be sent
later to authors of accepted papers.


Rump Session:

In addition to the regular conference program, a rump session will be
held to provide an opportunity for less formal presentations.
Although the rump session will be organized during the conference
itself, any advance proposals may be sent to the Program Co-Chair at
the email address given below.  Rump session contributions will not
appear in the conference proceedings.


Stipends:

A very limited number of stipends may be available to those unable to
obtain funding to attend the conference.  Students whose papers are
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to
apply if such assistance is needed.  Requests for stipends should be
addressed to one of the General Chairs.


Registration:

Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Anguilla itself will follow in a separate general announcement.  There
are special reduced registration rates for full-time academics and
students.  Further information about registration is available online
via the URL listed below.


Workshop:

A workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software development
experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with
FC98, to be held during the week following the conference.  Further
information about the workshop is available online via the URL listed
below.  For information about workshop registration, please contact
one of the General Chairs.


Special Attraction:

On Thursday, February 26, 1998, there will be a total eclipse of the
sun.  The narrow zone of 100% totality will pass just south of
Anguilla, and there should be an excellent view of the eclipse from
the conference site.


Send Submissions to:

Rafael Hirschfeld
FC98 Program Chair
CWI
Kruislaan 413
1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
email: ray at cwi.nl
phone: +31 20 592 4169
fax: +31 20 592 4199


Send Rump Session Contributions to:

Matthew Franklin
FC98 Program Co-Chair
email: franklin at research.att.com


Program Committee:

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY, USA


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rah at shipwright.com
Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI
   email: vince at offshore.com.ai


Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA
   email: julie at sneaker.net


Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA
   email: iang at cs.berkeley.edu


Financial Cryptography '98 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

FC98 is sponsored by:
RSA Data Security Inc. <http://www.rsa.com>
C2NET, Inc. <http://www.c2.net>
Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, Anguilla <http://www.hansa.net/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com>

Those interested in becoming a sponsor of FC98 or in purchasing
exhibit space, please contact the Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager.

A copy of this call for papers as well as other information about the
conference will be available at URL http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98.





From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov  3 23:34:13 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:34:13 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <f3109104b3eeef55881629c96a224028@squirrel>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103190201.03169298@popd.netcruiser>

At 05:24 PM 11/3/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Minty Cuntskin (Sorry Monty, I couldn't resist ;-) wrote: 

Just FYI, "Monty Cantsin" is not a real person.  According the the Neoism
web site (See "Monty's" posts for URL), "Everybody can BE Monty Cantsin,
but nobody IS Monty Cantsin." Same goes for Smile Magazine.  Neoism
encourages its adherents to start their own Smile Magazine.  Go figure...

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
-------------- next part --------------
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Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 190 bytes
Desc: "PGP signature"
URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/19971104/9ad88f3e/attachment.obj>

From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov  3 23:43:22 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:43:22 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103183411.0315aeb4@popd.netcruiser>

At 08:49 PM 11/2/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

No. S/MIME uses 40 bit keys, which are trivially breakable by paralell
brute-force key search attacks.

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
-------------- next part --------------
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Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 190 bytes
Desc: "PGP signature"
URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/19971104/7b11f8e3/attachment.obj>

From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Nov  3 23:52:55 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:52:55 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <iNX3RsnMvFVAxjTpyHr4HQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971104082253.29652A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



[It is probably a waste of time, but I'll try it anyway...]

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Let me guess, Lucky, you're using Windows, right? If I was a Windows user
> exclusively I probably wouldn't give a damn either.

Windows 95/NT, MacOS, FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, AIX, and right now I need
to deal with OS/390. 'Nuff said on the OS flame...

> PGP Inc. has taken a *multi-platform* *network-wide* system and broken it.
> They released a Windows version months ago completely severing lines of
> communication between 5.0 and 2.x users. 
> 
> Finally, after months, they get around to releasing a UNIX version so that
> everybody else can use PGP 5.x.

I probably should find it amusing to read such nonsene by people that
don't know what they are talking about, but frankly, I just find it
annoying.

PGP released their UNIX code the same day they released  their Windows
code. I know. I was there. I have 7 volume of source on my shelf to
prove it. Hurt my back lifting several boxes for re-distribution...

That it took so long before the source was available was due to the US
export laws. [The Windows and Mac source still  isn't 100% proofread].

BTW, how many pages did *you* proofread? Thought so. I
organized a 30 man tent full of proofreaders to get get stacks of
pages full of assembler proofread. By the end of the weekend, the
source was up for ftp. Your contribution to the project was...? 'Nuff
said on this topic.

 >Of course the damned thing *still* isn't
> stable,

You have/are going to contribute how many man months of highly qualified
programmer time to make PGP 5 fully stable? ... Right...I see. 

>*still* has a timebomb in it,

https://www.cypherpunks.to/pgp5hacks/ [For the braindead...]

> and *still* has the command line
> broken.

Compatibility mode is not yet implemented. Are you voluntering your
time?... Oh.... Hmm..

Anyway, I got to go and get some work done. Been nice talking with you.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From semprini at theschool.com  Tue Nov  4 00:05:39 1997
From: semprini at theschool.com (semprini at theschool.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:05:39 +0800
Subject: 
Message-ID: <199711040738.XAA26306@k2.brigadoon.com>



> 
> > Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> > convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> > exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
> let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
> porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
> facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).

Let me set some facts straight. The idea in the paragraph above from 
Jodi Hoffman is quite contrary to the ideas held by Scientologists. 
The idea in the paragraph above has to do with the ideas held by the 
secular humanists and their attempts to explain human behaviour as 
having nothing to do with a will, but as just chemical reactions. 
Make sure you know exactly what ideas are held by a particular group 
before you attempt to denounce them. As Mark Twain once said, "First 
get your facts straight; then you can distort them."

--Dylan

FWIW, I heartily agree that Jodi probably "despises porn so much she's 
seeing red", which she has every right to do. However! She's quoting 
studies that are crocks, so her entire agrument is fallacious, as 
TruthMonger so eloquently pointed out. :)






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Tue Nov  4 00:18:06 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:18:06 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <199711032057.MAA08856@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971104190029.29172H-100000@oberon>



On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 semprini at theschool.com wrote:

> > Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
> Wrong. Exposure to pornography does not cause "brain damage" or 
> "structural changes in the brain."

Well part of it true,  exsposure to porn will cause structural changers in
the brain,  so will exsposure to high art,  these are called memroise and
are necery for the propper functions of the brain.  Thay do not cause
brain dammige.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. 
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument






From Jim at famailcrt.com  Tue Nov  4 19:52:11 1997
From: Jim at famailcrt.com (Jim at famailcrt.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Web Site Hosting Starting at $15.00
Message-ID: <>


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply

with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you

from their future mailings

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Message Sent 11/04/97


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From Jim at famailcrt.com  Tue Nov  4 19:52:11 1997
From: Jim at famailcrt.com (Jim at famailcrt.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Web Site Hosting Starting at $15.00
Message-ID: <>


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply

with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you

from their future mailings

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Message Sent 11/04/97


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We can design a Web Site for you:

It's easy! You simply supply us with your company logo, your product and company information,

and we will take that information and develop it into a professional Web Site for your company! 

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Thank you for your time.







From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov  4 03:52:21 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:21 +0800
Subject: Pet Bog Crypto Ban
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971104114239.00a4cbac@pop.pipeline.com>



As a strategic bank shot for banning domestic use of encryption the 
US FBI and Fish and Wildlife Service have declared the pet Bog 
Snatch Algorithm a terrorist threat:

   http://jya.com/fws110497.txt  (134K)

B. Overutilization for Commercial, Recreational, Scientific, or 
Educational Purposes

    The bog turtle is a target for pet collectors due to its rarity in 
the wild, distinctive coloration, and small size. Take (primarily 
illegal) both for the national and international commercial pet trade 
industry has occurred for many years. Collecting is a significant 
factor in the species decline and is an ongoing threat to its continued 
existence in the wild (Anon. 1991; Earley 1993; David Flemming, U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife Service, in litt. 1991; Herman 1990; Klemens in 
press; Stearns et al. 1990; Tryon 1990; Tryon and Herman 1990). During 
the last 5 to 10 years, an increasing number of bog turtles have been 
advertised for sale, and prices have increased substantially. The 
increase in price most likely reflects the increase in demand for the 
turtles; the increase in demand increases the threats to the wild 
populations (Tryon and Herman 1990).
    Atlanta Zoo personnel reported that from 1989 to early 1991, over 
1000 bog turtles were exported to Japan. These figures differ 
significantly from CITES data and represent a significant amount of 
unreported illegal trade (Anon. 1991). The World Wildlife Fund recently 
listed bog turtles as among the world's top 10 ``most wanted'' 
endangered species (Earley 1993). According to Alan Salzburg, President 
of the American Turtle and Tortoise Society, the bog turtle is 
considered the most prized turtle in the United States, and when bog 
turtle locations become publicly known, they are exploited by 
collectors within 1 year (Laura Hood, Defenders of Wildlife, in litt. 
1997).
    Due to the threats facing bog turtle populations, the Society for 
the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles adopted a resolution calling for 
the prohibition of collection from wild populations (Stearns et al. 
1990). Due to the small size of existing populations, and the low 
reproductive and recruitment potential of this species, the removal of 
even a few breeding adults can do irrevocable damage to a population 
(Tryon 1990). Collecting has been a factor in the reduction or 
extirpation of several bog turtle populations in Delaware (Anon. 1991), 
Maryland (Anon. 1991; Smith, in litt. 1994), Massachusetts (Anon. 
1991), New Jersey (Farrell and Zappalorti 1989; Zappalorti, pers. comm. 
1994; Zappalorti, in litt. 1997), New York (Breisch, in litt. 1993; 
Breisch et al., in litt. 1994; Collins 1990; Behler, in litt. 1997), 
and Pennsylvania (Ralph Pisapia, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, in 
litt. 1992; Zappalorti, in litt. 1997). Many sites in these States have 
suitable habitat, but have much-reduced bog turtle populations, 
probably due to collecting.
    Throughout the bog turtle's entire range, States regulate take 
through classification of the species as endangered (in Connecticut, 
Delaware, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, and 
Virginia) or threatened (in Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, South 
Carolina and Tennessee), yet trade continues.
    Illegal trade is difficult to detect due to the questionable origin 
of turtles being offered for sale. Bog turtles are often ``laundered'' 
through States which either do not have native populations (e.g., West 
Virginia, Florida, California), or through States which have inadequate 
protection of their own bog turtle populations (Charles Bepler, U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife Service, in litt. 1993; Breisch, in litt. 1993; 
Michael Klemens, in litt. 1990). For example, in recent years dealers 
have claimed West Virginia as the State of origin for bog turtles; 
however, there is no evidence to support the contention that the bog 
turtle occurs in that State (Dennis Herman, Project Bog Turtle 
Coordinator, in litt. 1997; Tom Thorp, North Carolina Herpetological 
Society, in litt. 1997). Hatchling and juvenile turtles marketed as 
``captive-born'' are usually offspring from gravid adult females 
illegally brought into captivity and held until they deposit eggs. The 
eggs are then hatched in captivity, and the captive-born (but not 
captive-bred) offspring are then marketed or retained (Bepler, in litt. 
1993).
    A few specific instances of illegal bog turtle collecting and trade 
are reported below:
    (1) An undercover officer purchased eight bog turtles from a person 
who had collected them near Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Also, two 
additional bog turtles were recovered from persons who had gotten them 
from friends allegedly in the New York area (Bepler, in litt. 1993);
    (2) An individual from New Jersey was arrested for bringing bog 
turtles from New Jersey to Florida and selling them as captive-born. It 
is suspected that he collected about six turtles per year over a period 
of several years (Bepler, in litt. 1993);
    (3) A reliable source in New York reported that over 2000 wild-
caught bog turtles were shipped to Japan in a 2-year period (Murdock, 
in litt. 1990);
    (4) Researchers found several turtle traps and a much-diminished 
bog turtle population at an important bog turtle site in Pennsylvania 
(Pisapia, in litt. 1992);
    (5) In 1993, a New Jersey resident purchased 47 bog turtles in 
Florida, and since 1984 had also bought 20 additional bog turtles. This 
individual supposedly has an active breeding program for bog turtles 
(Terry Tarr, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, in litt. 1993);
    (6) When confronted in a New York wetland, an individual claiming 
to be a birdwatcher revealed the contents of the cloth bag he was 
carrying--a bog turtle and spotted turtle (Paul Novak, New York Natural 
Heritage Program, in litt. 1990);
    (7) A reliable source reported seeing approximately 60 bog turtles 
at the Ohio residence of a person who frequents reptile shows. Based on 
the physical appearance of the bog turtles, they were not captive-bred 
(Scott Smith, Maryland Department of Natural Resources, in litt. 1996);
    (8) Bog turtles have been available at the major Herpetological 
Expo in Orlando, Florida for the last 2 years (Herman, in litt. 1997; 
Thorp, in litt. 1997); and
    (9) Bog turtles were observed in several Florida dealerships in 
1996, although they have not been openly advertised for sale (Herman, 
in litt. 1997).
    The general consensus among bog turtle researchers, nongame 
biologists, and law enforcement officials is that illegal collecting is 
occurring at a much greater rate than detected or reported (Anon. 1991; 
Breisch, in litt. 1993; Flemming, in litt. 1991). Bog turtles are 
already extremely low in numbers throughout much of their range, and 
any additional take could eliminate marginal populations and hamper 
survival and recovery efforts.
    Protecting existing sites for bog turtles can pose a threat when 
these specific sites are revealed and publicized. In addition to the 
threat of collection for the pet trade industry, collection of bog
turtles for exhibition at nature centers is also a threat (Anon. 1991).







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 04:08:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:08:24 +0800
Subject: Porn gave me brain damage!!
Message-ID: <199711041153.MAA10955@basement.replay.com>



	I have been reading this list for some time now but have only posted a few
messages, you might recall them, they were about the government using
perceived threats to convince the public that they 
needed legislation to protect them from harmful elements on the 
Internet. I am not posting now about any sort of government conspiracy
or mind control tactics used to convince people they need to give up rights
in order to be safe, I am posting to tell you all how very wrong I was.

	I have just come from the neurologist where I was diagnosed with dementia
pornographia, a syndrome caused by exposure to pornography. 
I have been afflicted with an obsession with pornography since I first
realized I was attracted to women. I remember looking at them and imagining
them with no clothes on. I know now that this is when the damage was begun,
and there is nothing I can do now to reverse it.
	My first taste of pornography was in junior high school. We had a sex ed
class and the textbook was full of crudely drawn genetalia. I looked at
these pictures frequently while studying, little did I know what was being
done to me, the pictures were causing chemical changes in my brain,
stimulating synapses and causing neurons to fire.
	At first I was like any normal kid, very loving and close to my family. As
I got drawn deeper and deeper into pornography I changed, 
first I started hanging around with other boys interested in female
genetalia. Then I started searching through my parents belongings and
stealing whatever I could to support my habits. Newspapers, catalogs,
books, national geographic, anything with pictures of women in it would do.
My parents didn't understand what I was going through they just 
assumed that I was going through a phase, they didn't know that my little
"phase" caused new hormones to be released into my brain changing it 
for good.
	Through most of my high school and college years I was a 
dedicated porn user. I always surrounded myself with people that thought
porn was "cool" or that it was "no big deal". I became increasingly
estranged from my family and even went so far as to move away from home 
for my freshman year in college. I was 18 now and could legally buy
dangerous pornographic material. Once I was living away from home I started
experimenting with pre-marital sex. At first I knew it was 
wrong, but all my friends were doing it so I did it to fit in. Soon I
became to desire it, even need it. If I went for a while without it I would
do just about anything to "get laid". 
	When A friend of mine introduced me to the Internet all my
prayers had been answered, all the porn I could ever need and people 
werejust giving it away. I was chipping away at my brain bit by bit, 
every site, every newsgroup, every picture, every chatroom, was drawing me
deeper into the world of porn. Then I read Jodi Hoffmam's post and I knew
that I needed help. 

	I hope that this can help people, I am to far gone to be helped
now. I hope people can learn from the mistakes I made. I hope something 
can be done to stop the rampant proliferation of porn from hurting other
innocent children, too young to know better, but having lost their
innocence and having experienced more than any child should. It is the
children that are losing in the war against pornography.
   

	--Bucky






From mark at unicorn.com  Tue Nov  4 04:23:54 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (mark at unicorn.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:23:54 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
Message-ID: <878645811.4088.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>




Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm at ibm.net> wrote:
>Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
>Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the freezing
>drizzle. 

I'm sure that your daughter can't forget such an obvious example of child
abuse either. Perhaps someone should inform the BATF?

>Don't
>you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
>society?

Don't tell them or they'll all want one...

>Studies have shown that
>an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
>five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.

Studies have shown that anti-porn rhetoric kills babies and causes
cancer in lab rats. Which studies? The ones I just made up... of
course your comment isn't a total lie, it's just a blatant and, frankly,
inept attempt to twist reality to support your cause. The human brain
is a neural network; any data entering into it changes its structure.

Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that:

Exposure to anti-porn rhetoric causes actual brain damage, especially in 
a child.

>So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms. That's exactly what
>happened with the Hitler youth, etc... 

I think you'll find that the Hitler Youth were too busy burning 
'pornography' to read it, though I guess burning books may have
given them orgasms. Many people seem to have the hots for it,
after all.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1: CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

[Rest deleted; I'm glad to see that the revolution is proceeding as
planned. I'll mention you at the next Illuminati Grand Council.]

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2: CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA

Ah, this is where I come in; I have, sadly, been neglecting my cypherpunk
duties lately because I've been spending too much time on film-making. You
see, I have this dream; I want to make a movie of the entire Bible, and
not the old Charlton Heston version, but totally unexpurgated, keeping
entirely to the text, including all those embarassing bits about Lot's
daughters screwing their father while he slept in order to have his
children ('No, no your honor, it wasn't me, they did it to me in my
sleep'), men who are hung like stallions, and babies having their brains 
bashed out of their skulls.

Why? Because I want to see the religious censors squirm... I do so
enjoy their anti-porn and anti-violence rants when they're pushing
one of the most violent and pornographic novels ever written.

>Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
>Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America

Excuse me? You're part of the 'Victimization of Children Council'? You
mean child victimizers have their own lobby group these days? Boy, ain't
America wonderful?

    Mark






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov  4 05:30:16 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:30:16 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0: Keyservers
In-Reply-To: <19971104042001.4745.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199711041321.IAA25174@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971104042001.4745.qmail at nym.alias.net>, on 11/04/97 
   at 04:20 AM, lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu> said:

>Out of curiosity, what protection is there for PGP 5.x users submitting
>keys to the keyservers? Would it not be trivial for somebody to see what
>dialup SLIP link a key is coming from and tie that key to the person
>submitting it?

>That isn't a problem for personal keys, but it is a big problem for
>psuedonyms. Is there some kind of mechanism in place for submitting such
>keys via anonymous remailers? 

>This might already have been covered by other Cypherpunks or the PGP
>folks.

All the HTTP based servers also have e-mail access for submitting and
retreiving keys. Submitting a key via remailer should not be a problem.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNF8g149Co1n+aLhhAQETzwP/QmKn5T78nvDhETZBKPpP6pNs9wYafYnY
lVfkibjOctMRBFhI3bk2oCgwZZGTk3GFi1aOkFhr5aRgfuRSHjXV5LJHKrjUnNZU
0UhMVPXFKAEteIESSzD1qAveMXfbSb3r053GeRTQFF4eoFmLTPgo2zGDFQUSgx5d
cXPcdjDEZc4=
=sgYa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov  4 05:36:00 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:36:00 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971104082253.29652A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199711041329.IAA25247@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.BSF.3.96.971104082253.29652A-100000 at pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>,
on 11/04/97 
   at 08:52 AM, Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> said:

I don't want to get into the how much time have you devoted to PGP thread,
I am currious of if and when there will be a release of the unmodified
source code for 5.0. Curently the only available code is that which has
been modified for the unix beta. Will there be a release of this code??
IMHO this should have been the first thing released before the
modifications were started.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNF8iEI9Co1n+aLhhAQFTGwP/cz1LDx61bLU2EcyLcZ4i7J2pPNAh/DNn
P0Ra1lDb2OgoxJyIM0nkv4DjDr8mp5IlISb/wCSYt6v4yf6y+BNy/75Cg2OXjybz
fZjCbUEXMwhJlmMnKQugbxGOkVL+1u+0KDUXrnBK9zekHyQtqDJKYx4g2FuDqx3n
fV+ENDvYA7Y=
=RZSd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jlhoffm at ibm.net  Tue Nov  4 06:16:22 1997
From: jlhoffm at ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:16:22 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <345F2B21.1F66@ibm.net>



Ross Wright wrote:
> 
> From:
> 
> http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
> 
> You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
> normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
> encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
> were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
> harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
> sex-education programs.
> Hmmm...didn't I already have that written there?  If not, it's probably in our book.
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361






From kraiwut at samart.co.th  Tue Nov  4 06:42:25 1997
From: kraiwut at samart.co.th (kraiwut at samart.co.th)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:42:25 +0800
Subject: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>



Profiling/personal computer security at Ben Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv
I just had a rather unholy experience in Israel. Maybe someone with
expertise can email me a few suggestions with regards to securing a PC at
start up.

On Nov. 2nd I arrived three hours early to Ben Gurion Airport  for my flight
to Bangkok(via Amman, Jordan). While standing in line before the check-in
counters I listened to   Shin Bet representatives interrogating passengers.
When my turn came the friendly skies  turned dark. Apparently my responses
to the standardized  questions became  an unwelcome indictment. 
I believe a few things contributed to my being selected: 
1) jobless but carrying a generous roll of C notes and a stack of trav. checks
2) purchased a one-way the day before from an Arab travel agent(with credit
card, not cash)
3) declined an Israeli stamp in my passport(*red flag*)
4) numerous stamps from Arab countries; travelled overland from Sinai
5) I rented a car from an Arab agency located in East Jerusalem
These characteristics qualified me for a trip to the back room where they
opened my bag and discovered a computer. 

"Why didn't you tell me you had a computer?" the Shin Bet trainee demanded
in a somewhat agitated tone. "Because you didn't ask",  I replied. 

A few moments later someone emerged from yet another  back room and asked me
something stupid about the computer's  battery. I removed the battery as
requested. He then asked to see the computer ostensibly to send it through a
machine to determine  if it  was actually a well-disguised  bomb. That was
his  pretense as the computer disappeared for more than 45 minutes. About 5
minutes after he left with the computer someone else walked into the room
and gave me the floppy that I always leave in that drive. I assume that this
means that  they began working on the machine as soon as they left the room
with it. Later someone else from another building came to look at the
computer so I guess this means that they have a few guys who swing between
the four departure terminals checking on progress or doing whatever. 

When the guy returned my computer there was a half inch crack on the side of
my Toshiba that hadn't been there when he left with it. Perhaps they took a
hammer and chisel to my hardware.  I started it up and found that  the
Windows 95 password was compromised(no flames, please). I know that you can
by-pass the Win95 password by going to the DOS mode, then tweaking
something. However, I don't think that was done as  the network
configuration was altered and some sort of recent Win95 utility was
installed( and it wasn't mine). I say recent because I have a newer version
Win95  on my desktop so the slight differences are easily apparent to me.
The shut down option has a different("shut down and allow user to log on")
something or other than was there before.

Now the password feature is fucked and the battery management feature isn't
working either. I have PGP5.0 installed and a few other easy-to-use crypto
and stego programs but nothing was said about those. I have three documents
encrypted with PGP but I seriously doubt that they were found. They opened
four documents in WordPerfect but nothing in those documents is in the least
bit interesting. They easily could have copied the entire C drive and given
the machine back to me. Or they could snatch an identity or two and use them
for their own corrupt pursuits. 

What can I do to make the computer fucking impenetrable at start up? --- to
the point that they have to ask me for the password or  nothing moves. 

The whole episode was unfucking believable and that wasn't all. I had a $50
bill stashed in a small space in my backpack. While in the terminal waiting
to board I discovered it missing. One of the urchins who was protecting the
Jewish state from terrorism burned me. The adapter for my Canon printer is
missing as well. 


In short, the Israelis are unscrupulous bastards who deserve a suitcase
nuke. I am convinced of this after having visited the  tragedy known as the
Occupied Territories--- but that is another matter.

I wrote down most of the questions used for their  profiling scheme. If
anyone is interested I will send them if requested. If anyone is interested
in creating a page dedicated to these profiling schemes(American, Israeli,
anyone)  I would be happy to contribute. 

send security suggestions to: hico at hotmail.com











From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov  4 06:59:19 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:59:19 +0800
Subject: Interpol on Computer Crime / Cryptography
Message-ID: <v03110705b083a86866c2@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb at ai.mit.edu>
From: oldbear at arctos.com (The Old Bear)
Subject: Interpol on Computer Crime / Cryptography
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:50:39 -0500
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: oldbear at arctos.com (The Old Bear)
Status: U

--- Forwarded message follows ---

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:09:25 +-5-30
From: Rishab Aiyer Ghosh <rishab at dxm.org>
Subject: Interpol on Computer Crime
Telecom-Digest: Volume 17, Issue 299
Lines: 135

In the context of FBI Director Louis Freeh's statements on computer crime,
here's the Interpol take.
                                             -rishab

   [from American Reporter, the Internet's only daily newspaper,
   www.american-reporter.com]

EXCLUSIVE: INTERPOL'S TOP INTERNET CRIMEFIGHTER SPEAKS OUT

 Rishab Aiyer Ghosh
 American Reporter Correspondent
 New Delhi, India

 NEW DELHI -- The impact of the Internet on crime-fighting may not be
as great as some hope, Interpol's top expert on networked computer
crimes has told the American Reporter. Hiroaki Takizawa says
old-fashioned methods of seeking evidence and gathering information
may remain the staple of crimefighters for a long time to come.

Takizawa talked to the American Reporter at the 66th annual General
Assembly of the worldwide crime-fighting organization Interpol
<http://www.interpol-pr.com> in New Delhi last week, where one of the
key topics of the conference was the impact of the Internet on global
crime and enforcement.

In an interview, the top Interpol expert on Internet and computer
crimes, Hiroaki Takizawa, said despite the serious problems being
posed by the Internet to police everywhere, traditional, off-line
evidence gathering and investigation will remain the primary tools of
law enforcement.

Takizawa admitted that strong cryptography and anonymous email make
illicit transactions difficult to monitor or trace through the
Internet. Interpol, he said, is concerned at the spread of
cryptography, but does not advocate legislation banning it.

"What we concentrate on is the implementation of legislation, rather
than legislation itself," said Takizawa, when asked if he favored a
crypto ban. "Police need human and financial resources" to investigate
crime using the Internet, feels Takizawa, more than unenforceable
legislative bans.

Do police make use of intercepted messages much, on a global scale?
"Yes, I think so, yeah," said Takizawa. However, "we don't, we haven't
had many cases" that relied on undecipherable messages as evidence.

"I don't think the Interpol plays an important role so far as
[legislation on] cryptography is concerned," says Takizawa. The
Interpol cannot make binding treaties affecting national law -- "it is
not really a policy developing organization," he said.

Instead, it makes resolutions "from the police point of view" -- and
its members then go home to lobby with their governments. It does not
intend to make any resolutions on cryptography, though. Instead
"[Interpol] will focus on training and coordination" so that police
forces around the world "can develop practical solutions." As for
changing the law, "the OECD<http://www.oecd.org> has started
discussion" on cryptography -- and has come to the conclusion
<http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/crypto_e.html> that crypto bans are not
a good approach.

Interpol finds that an increasing amount of its work involves the Net
or computers in one way or another, and has set up a team to figure
out where police -- and the Interpol -- can have an effective
role. Interpol divides digital crime into three areas: computer crime,
which includes piracy, data-theft and time-theft (computer break-ins);
computer-related crime, which is mainly bank fraud -- "what was a
crime earlier with paper, but is now done with a computer," as
Takizawa says, and pornography.

The third, most recent area that "everyone's talking about now,"
Takizawa said, is what Interpol calls "network crime": the use of the
Internet for transactions that are already illegal -- child
pornography -- or aid illegal activity -- often involving the drug
trade, customs evasion and money laundering.

Takizawa finds that of these network crimes, child pornography and the
use of the Internet as an accessory to child sex abuse -- on-line
advertisements for Asian "sex tours" targeted at Westerners, for
example -- is the easiest to tackle. Stopping the distribution of
pornography itself is harder, though, thanks to the Internet --
"normally [pornography] was checked at the airport and confiscated by
customs, now you just download it by computer" -- so Interpol doesn't
even try, he says.

"Interception [is] impossible," said Takizawa bluntly.

Instead, Interpol uses the easily searched structure of the Net to
trace material back to its off-line origins. Police aided by
Interpol's global network locate brochures for sex tourism on the Net
much more easily than if they were in print, and follow up with
off-line investigations and arrests, he said.

The cross-jurisdictional nature of the Net -- and the fact that
countries disagree on precisely what activities are criminal -- is
less of a problem for child pornography than money-laundering.
Takizawa describes a recent case involving Germany and Japan: "from
Germany we received information [on child pornography found online]
pointing to Japan. Through Interpol we [passed] it on to Japan," where
authorities traced the originators and made arrests.

And what about money laundering? Doesn't the prospect of untraceable,
anonymous global electronic commerce on the Internet scare Interpol?

"Well, my counter-question is, have there been so many cases of
 ... [monetary] transactions using [the] Internet?" asks Takizawa.

Perhaps not -- yet. But once you have some form of the digital
currency required for any large-scale electronic commerce, what will
Interpol do about money laundering?

"We don't know," he admits. When cyberpayments are common, Takizawa
adds, "we cannot tell you what's going to happen. Everybody wants to
know that. If you can predict it perhaps you [will] get the Nobel
prize!"

For an organization sometimes represented as a global police force --
which Interpol is not -- being a coordinating body for 178 national
law enforcement agencies worldwide -- Takizawa's depiction of its
Internet policy is surprisingly tame. His view well may stem from a
basic understanding of the nature of crime, which doesn't occur on the
Internet so much as pass through it. However much criminals use the
Net, says Takizawa, police will always "need more evidence outside the
network."

                      ----------------

Rishab Aiyer Ghosh <rishab at dxm.org> is Editor of the New Delhi-based
Indian Techonomist, a popular technology journal.



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From iancly at entrust.com  Tue Nov  4 07:19:25 1997
From: iancly at entrust.com (Ian Clysdale)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:19:25 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104145454Z-34522@mail.entrust.com>



I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on that one.  S/MIME DOES use 40 bit 
RC2, by the standard, but the standard specifically states the 
weakness of those keys, and recommends using another implementation. 
 The standard strongly recommends the use of triple-DES, and 
apparently the Communicator and Outlook S/MIME triple-DES now 
interoperates properly.  Deming has also had a plugin which does 
triple-DES for quite a while.  In addition, individual vendors are 
allowed to put in any other algorithms into an S/MIME implementation 
that they desire - for example, the default algorithm in Entrust's 
S/MIME implementation is CAST-128.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that while PGP defines both 
algorithm and protocol, S/MIME just defines protocol.  As long as you 
have two clients which share common algorithms, then you can use any 
algorithms that you like with S/MIME.

								ian

----------
From:  Jonathan Wienke [SMTP:JonWienk at ix.netcom.com]
Sent:  Monday, November 03, 1997 9:34 PM
To:  Nobuki Nakatuji; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject:  Re: S/MIME

At 08:49 PM 11/2/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

No. S/MIME uses 40 bit keys, which are trivially breakable by 
paralell
brute-force key search attacks.

Jonathan Wienke







From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov  4 07:58:21 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:58:21 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104145454Z-34522@mail.entrust.com>
Message-ID: <199711041537.KAA26462@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In
<c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104145454Z-34522 at mail.entrust.com>,
on 11/04/97 
   at 09:54 AM, Ian Clysdale <iancly at entrust.com> said:

>I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on that one.  S/MIME DOES use 40 bit 
>RC2, by the standard, but the standard specifically states the  weakness
>of those keys, and recommends using another implementation. 
> The standard strongly recommends the use of triple-DES, and  apparently
>the Communicator and Outlook S/MIME triple-DES now  interoperates
>properly.  Deming has also had a plugin which does  triple-DES for quite
>a while.  In addition, individual vendors are  allowed to put in any
>other algorithms into an S/MIME implementation  that they desire - for
>example, the default algorithm in Entrust's  S/MIME implementation is
>CAST-128.

>The point that I'm trying to make here is that while PGP defines both 
>algorithm and protocol, S/MIME just defines protocol.  As long as you 
>have two clients which share common algorithms, then you can use any 
>algorithms that you like with S/MIME.


This is not true.

If you read the S/MIME specs it says one MUST implement the RC2/40
algorithm. A MUST in an RFC has a very definate purpose: If an aplication
does not implement all MUST sections of the RFC then it is not compliant!
To create an S/MIME compliant application one MUST implement RC2/40 and
one MUST pay RSA to do so!!

This is the BIG difference between S/MIME and Open-PGP. In Open-PGP there
is no MUST to implemnet weak crypto. In Open-PGP there is no MUST to
implement propritary algoritms.

For those in the cheap seats:

S/MIME:

- -Weak Crypto
- -Pay RSA

Open-PGP:

- -Strong Crypto
- -Don't Pay Anyone

I think that this should be simple enough for anyone here to understand.

If your Entrust product is going to be using S/MIME to communicate with
overseas users of Netscape and/or MS Outlook then you will be using RC2/40
to do so. That is the reason it is in the specs as a MUST, so MS and
Netscape can export their products!!!

Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are letting thier greed get in the way of
developing a message encryption protocol that provides strong crypto to
ALL users.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From iancly at entrust.com  Tue Nov  4 08:02:04 1997
From: iancly at entrust.com (Ian Clysdale)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:02:04 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104154014Z-34701@mail.entrust.com>



This is not true.

If you read the S/MIME specs it says one MUST implement the RC2/40
algorithm. A MUST in an RFC has a very definate purpose: If an 
aplication
does not implement all MUST sections of the RFC then it is not 
compliant!
To create an S/MIME compliant application one MUST implement RC2/40 
and
one MUST pay RSA to do so!!

   Umm....  If you read what I wrote, you will see that I said "S/MIME 
DOES implement 40 bit RC2, but it ALSO implements XXXXXXXX. 
 Personally, I'd rather see even weak crypto getting world-wide 
deployment than seeing no crypto getting out because of stupid 
draconian export laws.  However much you may dislike their "weak 
crypto", Netscape and Microsoft are getting more seats of 
crypto-compliant software out there than PGP ever has.  And once the 
infrastructure is out there where everyone can use weak crypto, people 
will (hopefully) realize that it is insecure, and shift to stronger 
algorithms that ARE supported currently in domestic US/Canada 
versions, and which I'm sure someone outside of the States will have 
coming out in the near future, if they're not already there.

Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are letting thier greed get in the way 
of
developing a message encryption protocol that provides strong crypto 
to
ALL users.

   Either that, or Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are being practical 
and doing something that will legally put SOME cryptography in the 
hands of everyone today.  It's all in how you look at it.

							ian






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov  4 08:37:08 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:37:08 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104154014Z-34701@mail.entrust.com>
Message-ID: <199711041609.LAA26750@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In
<c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104154014Z-34701 at mail.entrust.com>,
on 11/04/97 
   at 10:40 AM, Ian Clysdale <iancly at entrust.com> said:

>   Either that, or Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are being practical  and
>doing something that will legally put SOME cryptography in the  hands of
>everyone today.  It's all in how you look at it.

There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse than
no security at all".

I doubt that you would find few if any that would agree with you that it
is a good thing having the masses using weak crypto. At least the US
members of the Open-PGP group are willing to sacrifice overseas sales in
the effort to provide STRONG crypto to EVERYONE. It is the right thing to
do. I am sorry to see that you do not uderstand this. 

If you choose to dance with the Devil to line your pockets that is your
choice but don't expect me to recomend that anyone join in with you.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Tue Nov  4 08:45:28 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:45:28 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <345E4500.5828@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711041609.QAA03086@manifold.algebra.com>



This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
after baiting you so successfully.

I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
what she wrote, seriously.


igor

TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> 
> Having Tourette Syndrome can sometimes be a burden, particularly when
> one goes through a long period where their obscene outbursts are serving
> no particular purpose. So it is refreshing when I come across situations
> where all of those huddled masses of naughty words, struggling to be
> free, can be expressed in a meaningful manner, thus living a productive
> life instead of being just wasted.
> 
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > [Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
> > reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]
> 
>   Rookie...
>  
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
> > From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm at ibm.net>
> > To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> > Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
> > 
> > ALL:
> > I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.
> 
>   Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
> 
> > As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
> > me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> > nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> > brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> > you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> > society?
> 
>   Why do I get the feeling that this Dumb Cunt (TM) has 'all of the
> answers' for society and everyone in it, and is about to share them 
> with us?
>   Well, if she expects us to listen to the divine wisdom of her
> words from the mount, I guess she had better explain to us how we
> are just dirt under her feet, so that we will realize we need to
> listen and learn from her.
> 
> >  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> > them.
> 
>   The shame! The shame!
> 
> >  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
> > taken from someone.  
> 
>   Typo...*should* read "Only a moron knows..."
> 
> >Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
> > to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
> > would say.
> 
>   That's right...you ask AND answer the questions, and we'll just 
> sit here and shut the fuck up.
> 
> > Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> > convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.
> 
>   Does "numerous attempts at convincing" translate to "expressed an
> opinion I disagreed with?"
> 
> >  It is
> > exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
>   Good idea to make vague, unsubstantiated claims in this area. If you
> provided sources and references, someone might be able to throw them
> back in your face and laugh at you for being an ignorant sack of shit,
> using self-serving 'studies' to support untenable logic.
>  
> > So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.
> 
>   Protecting? Hell, I strive to share them with as many people as
> possible. 
> 
> >  That's exactly what happened with the Hitler youth, etc...
> 
>   Uuhhh...you've got a 'study' to not-quote on this theory too, eh?
> 
> >  After all, I'm sure it does help
> > to blur the lines of reality.
> 
>   This makes even less sense than the last sentence. Are you trying
> to communicate propaganda that you don't fully understand?
>   Perhaps you should just stick to slogans and sound-bytes, rather 
> than trying to turn strings of disparate sentences into paragraphs.
> 
> <end of 'Windup'>
> > =====================
> <and here comes the 'Pitch'>
> 
> > Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
> > through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
> > being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
> > phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
> > ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
> > reading this.
> > Paul and Jodi Hoffman
> > Weston, Florida
> > 
> > "When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
> > calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
> > speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
> > (Hitler Youth Corps).
> 
>   Are you positive this quote isn't from Eisenhower, in regard to the
> American public educational system?
> 
> > ==================================================
> > LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
> > These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
> > and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
> > Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
> > the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
> > the United States.
> > Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
> > happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
> > answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
> > answers.
> > Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
> > be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.
> 
>   Are you sure this wasn't Nixon, taling about Vietnam and Democracy?
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH
> 
>   Alright! Party time!
>  
> > THE RULE:
> > The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
> > religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
> > from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
> > involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
> > rights.
> >
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
> > physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
> > want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
> > something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
> > back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
> > not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
> > without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
> > slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
> > random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
> > who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
> > parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
> > Soviet Union.
> > The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
> > nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
> > good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
> > it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   It sounds like the Dumb Cunt (TM) is suggesting that the former Soviet
> Union would have been a better place to raise our kids.
>   Yep, go to any high school and all the boys talk about is going over
> to the maternity wing of the hospital and porking the little sluts as
> they exit the womb. Honest! There are _studies_ that show this!
> 
>  > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
> > control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
> > control the minds of the people.
> >
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
> > all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
> > are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
> > motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
> > decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
> > presented.
> > Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
> > governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
> > particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
> > "arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
> > pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
> > Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
> > submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
> > showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.
> > 
> > This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
> > cold, hard reality.
> > The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
> > observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
> > press itself.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   It is unconscienable for the mass media to hold traditional values 
> up to scorn, and mock Ra, Isis, and the many, many gods who were born
> of a virgin and died and rose after three days, the last of which was...
> hang on, his name is on the tip of my tongue...Jesus!
>   Remember: left wing values =/= decency and morality
>   Is the Dumb Cunt telling us that the Moral Majority, which would
> by definition be the "prevailing order of the day," are a bunch of
> queer, violent aborionists with contempt for parental authority?
> I _thought_ there was something weird about those fuckers.
>   Those were non-Christian 'impartial' observers and study managers,
> right? <snicker-snicker-guffah!>
> 
>  > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
> > world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
> > and lose respect for government leaders.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
> > history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
> > average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
> > hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
> > have the most open and honest political system in the world.
> 
>   Hold it!
>   <laugh> <barf> <laugh> <barf>
>   OK, continue...
> 
> >   The
> > United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
> > them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
> > representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
> > themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
> > On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
> > pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
> > homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
> > struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
> > "Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
> > things are run anyway!"
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   This is the communists doing this, again, right? Flouridated water,
> etc?
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
> > getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
> > Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
> > trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
> > halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
> > timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
> > conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
> > than in any other nation in the world.
> > 
> > Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
> > or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
> > them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
> > to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
> > cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
> > Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
> > concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
> > "disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
> > composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   If the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing bum-buddies would quit
> opposing environmental concerns, animal-rights, sodomy and dozens 
> of other Neoliberal causes, then there wouldn't be all of that 
> bickering now, would there? 
>   The TruthMonger of the fact is, the problem is that the "real issues
> of importance" *_ARE_* the subject of "concrete action" by those who
> have decided that their own conservative values should be legislated
> into governmental existence in the interests of punishing and 
> imprisoning those with different values.
>   I've never seen anyone imprisoned for _not_ smoking a joint.
>   Think about _that_ you Ignorant Nazi Bitch!
> 
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
> > ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
> > ours.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
> > by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
> > other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
> > a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
> > in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.
> > 
> > Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
> > media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
> > traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
> > claiming "impartiality."
> > 
> > Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
> > people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
> > groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
> > time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?
> > 
> > In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
> > valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).
> > 
> > Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
> > the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
> > international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
> > condemnation.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   The Bibles were removed from the schools by the white Christian
> kids barricaded inside, thowing the Bibles at the niggers, as they
> tried to enter the school buildings. While waiting for the Bibles
> to be replaced the students had nothing left to read but the
> Constitution, and realized that the Bibles shouldn't have been
> there in the first place.
>   I would like to remind the Dumb Cunt that there are no laws
> prohibiting her children from bowing and praying toward Mecca
> three times a day, and it would probably do them some good.
>   The rest of the points above merely serve to illustrate that
> conservatives can't handle good acid, and should probably stick
> to booze.
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Encourage government extravagance on every front.
> > Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
> > government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
> > independence, motivation and strength.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
> > earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
> > dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
> > homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
> > education.
> > 
> > We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
> > of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
> > government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
> > cutbacks in services are proposed.
> > 
> > And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.
> > 
> > They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
> > health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
> > socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   I agree with the Dumb Cunt (TM) on this point. We need to fuck
> away our money on billions and billions of dollars of nuclear arms,
> weapons, surveillance equipment, secret agents and assassins, etc.
>   A decent and moral society can only be ensured by buying 10,000
> toilet seats for the Pentagon.
>   (Jesus. You _really_are_ a Dumb Cunt (TM), aren't you?)
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
> > in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
> > religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
> > one interest:   Themselves!
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > >From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moral
> > relativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The highest
> > goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
> > Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
> > person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
> > themselves.
> > 
> > Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
> > faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
> > one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
> > alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
> > their problems on society.
> > 
> > We have truly become the "me generation."
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   The Dumb Cunt (TM) is beginning to degenerate into drooling and
> meaningless generalizations which make little sense.
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
> > confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
> > thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
> > well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
> > every corner.
> > 
> > The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
> > United States.
> > 
> > Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
> > completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
> > submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
> > permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
> > disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
> > banned.
> > After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
> > every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
> > parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
> > illegal, women will still get abortions.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   I guess it was a mistake for the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing
> bum-buddies to join the left-wing sodomy artists in electing so
> goddamn many Communist gun-snatchers to political office.
>   I think we ought to give Hinkley his gun back, as soon as 
> another Republican is elected President.
> 
>  > RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
> > 
> > THE RULES:
> > Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
> > Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
> > ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
> > within the ranks.
> > Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
> > and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
> > of their armed forces.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
> > national product.
> > We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
> > our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
> > (1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
> > Congress, and
> > (2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
> > it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
> > the new and streamlined armed services.
> > 
> > Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
> > honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
> > as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'
> > 
> > Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
> > if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.
> > 
> > Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   And all of the good soldiers, like Tim McVeigh, end up leaving.
>  
> > FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
> > ================================================================
> > The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
> > that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
> > attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
> > extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
> > from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
> > and from the United States itself.
> > They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
> > Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
> > 21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
> > These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
> > revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
> > Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
> > any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
> > great detail by many Americans.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   Vladimir Lenin's best friend in the whole, wide world, is the Dumb
> Cunt (TM) and her Nazi Christian bum-buddies. 
>   The Godless Communists and the Nazi Christians could trade their
> brochures and just interchange the words  "Commie" and "Christian."
> 
>   I wish I had a penny for every Dumb Cunt (TM) and Stupid Prick (TM)
> who spent the majority of their time promoting the very same beliefs
> as those they claim to oppose, the only difference being that their
> 'solution' is the MLM promoting of a 'god' with a different name,
> or a 'flag' with a different 'hang time.'
> 
> > --
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > 1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
> > Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361
> 
>   Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
> Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
> her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
> at others?
> 
> Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
> If it saves the life of just one child...
> 
> TruthMonger
> 



	- Igor.






From iancly at entrust.com  Tue Nov  4 09:01:33 1997
From: iancly at entrust.com (Ian Clysdale)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:01:33 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104162419Z-34904@mail.entrust.com>



There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse 
than
no security at all".

I doubt that you would find few if any that would agree with you that 
it
is a good thing having the masses using weak crypto. At least the US
members of the Open-PGP group are willing to sacrifice overseas sales 
in
the effort to provide STRONG crypto to EVERYONE. It is the right thing 
to
do. I am sorry to see that you do not uderstand this.

   Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is 
rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak 
crypto in certain circumstances, when it is KNOWN to be weak.   The 
phrase "Poor security is worse than no security" refers to the dangers 
in assuming that your communications are secure, even when they're 
not.  If you know that your cryptography is weak, it can still 
sometimes be sufficient for your purposes. What weak cryptography does 
is protect from passive attacks, such as simple wire-tapping.  While 
an RC2/40 message can be trivially broken in a matter of hours, it 
can't be broken in real-time.  If EVERYONE used even RC2/40, then 
passive attacks would be foiled, because the <insert evil NSA/CSIS/etc 
here> just isn't going to bother breaking every single transmitted 
message.
   Now, of course, if you're doing something where you don't want your 
communications to be intercepted under any circumstances, then you 
want to be using something stronger than RC2/40.  However, S/MIME 
doesn't prevent that at all.  DES is a published standard, and I'm 
waiting for somebody outside of the USA to implement triple-DES with 
S/MIME.  This will inter-operate with Outlook and Netscape clients 
inside the USA (theoretically).
   Including a minimum baseline of weak cryptography is NOT denying 
strong cryptography to everyone.  Once the patent on RC2 expires 
(which is very soon) or if RSA gets dropped on their head and finally 
does the intelligent move of releasing it to the public domain, then 
S/MIME provides an expandable infrastructure for secure mail, with a 
huge user base already out there, and in a form much more spoonable to 
the unwashed masses.

						Ian







From berezina at qed.net  Tue Nov  4 09:21:55 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:21:55 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3464504f.9626871@mail.qed.net>



Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>Ross Wright wrote:
>> 
>> From:
>> 
>> http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
>> 
>> You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
>> normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
>> encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
>> were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
>> harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
>> sex-education programs.
>> Hmmm...didn't I already have that written there?  If not, it's probably in our book.

He was *quoting* you -- the apparent homophobia needed no comment. God, you
really are a

[rest of drafted reply snipped in deference to Declan]

Paul

http://www.nihidyll.com/attributions.html






From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Tue Nov  4 09:34:09 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:34:09 +0800
Subject: Forging your return address.
In-Reply-To: <199711041533.JAA03467@orion.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <345F5723.44A3@sk.sympatico.ca>



Sympatico Admin wrote:
> Hi Larry,
> 
> We have determined that you have be trying set your email program to
> be anonymous; ie forging your return address. If you wish to be
> anonymous then get a free email account with hotmail.com or rocketmail.

Dan,

The Sympatico Netscape software you provide has features that allow
the user to choose not to give out their email address to those that
they wish to keep it from, such as spammers, criminals and sex-shop
operators.
I have not been made aware of any Sympatico policy which requires your
users to make themselves vulnerable to anyone and everyone who has
connections to the InterNet.

> Your forged reply-to addresses 'fred at dev.null' get rejected by our
> email system and sit in our mail queue.

My chosen reply-to addresses at 'dev.null' are a traditional UNIX
method of directing files and email to /dev/null, which is the
equivalent of the Trash Bin on a Mac. You seem to have set up your
UNIX system to emulate a Win95 Recycle Bin, in that it assumes that 
the user doesn't know what he or she is doing, so saves deleted items.
Dev.null addresses are designed to get rejected by the email system,
so it seems rather useless to keep them in your mail queue.

> Also please do not set your
> email program to relay through someone else's server in another domain as
> there have been complaints. We do not allow this to be done from anyone
> outside our domain.

You will have to explain to me what exactly you are talking about
here, as it is unclear to me what you are referring to.
Please forward me copies of the complaints.
 
> Please note: this note is being sent to our security dept. as we deem this type
> of activity to be mis-use of the mail system and as such you could loose
> your access privleges.

Since this seems to be of such serious concern to you, I would certainly
appreciate it if you could explain to me in greater detail exactly what
it is about my use of my account that Sympatico has a policy problem
with, and why.
  
> If you have any question or concerns then please reply to this note!

I notice that your reply to address, 'Sympatico Admin <deckd>', is not
a valid InterNet email address. Is this an internal system address?
 
Toto






From jim at acm.org  Tue Nov  4 09:54:56 1997
From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:54:56 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104162419Z-34904@mail.entrust.com>
Message-ID: <345F6ABC.1E6AB2C@acm.org>



Ian Clysdale wrote:

>    Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is
> rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak
> crypto in certain circumstances, when it is KNOWN to be weak.   The
> phrase "Poor security is worse than no security" refers to the dangers
> in assuming that your communications are secure, even when they're
> not.  If you know that your cryptography is weak, it can still
> sometimes be sufficient for your purposes. What weak cryptography does

There's a good reason this viewpoint is unpopular: it includes the tacit
assumption that strong crypto is harder to do than weak crypto.  In fact
that's not the case.  It's as fast and easy to do RC4/128 as to do
RC4/40 -- the only extra resource is keying material, which is cheap.

The <only> reason to use weak cryptography is political.

I'll also challenge your "If you know that your cryptography is weak"
meme:
most people have no idea what cryptography is, and at best can look at
the
little key to see if they're on a secure page.  Explaining to them that
they're
not really secure is normally possible in a one-to-one tutorial, but most

people just want to get their work done, and if the program says they're
now
in secure mode, they'll feel free to send their SSN/SIN/NID and their HIV

status.  They <don't> know their cryptography is weak, even if you tell
them.

Bad idea!  Bad!


--
        Jim Gillogly
        14 Blotmath S.R. 1997, 18:27
        12.19.4.11.12, 1 Eb 10 Zac, Seventh Lord of Night








From declan at well.com  Tue Nov  4 11:22:17 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:22:17 +0800
Subject: Senate Commerce cmte approves tax freedom bill 14-5
Message-ID: <v03007811b0851e2b3faf@[204.254.22.214]>



[Right now I'm over at the Digital/Altavista summit to discuss rating
systems in search engines so I missed the vote. (Barry Steinhardt from the
ACLU just finished speaking. Sen. Judd Gregg, a CDA fan, spoke this
morning.) This bill limits local and state governments' ability to tax the
Net. --Declan]

----

(forwarded to me by a House staffer)

>The full Senate Commerce Committee voted today 14-5 to approve an amended
>version of the Internet Tax Freedom Act.  Here's how members voted:
>
>14 Yes: McCain, Stevens, Burns, Snowe, Ashcroft, Frist, Abraham, Brownback,
>Hollings, Inouye, Rockefeller, Kerry, Breaux, Wyden
>5 No: Gorton, Hutchinson, Ford, Bryan, Dorgan
>1 Did not vote: Lott







From lars.hornell at ornskoldsvik.mail.telia.com  Tue Nov  4 11:53:13 1997
From: lars.hornell at ornskoldsvik.mail.telia.com (lars.hornell at ornskoldsvik.mail.telia.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:53:13 +0800
Subject: mixmaster...
Message-ID: <345F760C.2E90@ornskoldsvik.mail.telia.com>



Is mixmaster not avalible to download or what???
If it IS avalible to download. Where can I download it then???






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov  4 11:54:21 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:54:21 +0800
Subject: Monty Cantsin README
Message-ID: <+Ov6tov0v6CRImkYC6mE2g==@bureau42.ml.org>



Please post your public key somewhere. There's a variety of keyservers, or
even to this list would be adequate.

KeyMonger






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov  4 12:19:04 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:19:04 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <B6syLEj6903LAOBqpdIohA==@bureau42.ml.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Igor Chudov @ home spoke:
>
> This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> after baiting you so successfully.
>
> I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> what she wrote, seriously.

Believe it, Igor. There's a large number of people in the country
who believe as she does, though perhaps not too many of them have
the chutzpah to post such opinions to the fight-censorship list
(where it could certainly be interpreted as a troll).

Let's face it, there're a lot of people in the US who'd be happier
if they were governed like China or Singapore; they want a stern
authoritarian voice keeping society 'decent' and the homosexuals
and other 'perverts' under control and out of sight, regulating
what you can read and watch on TV, and what gets taught in schools,
regulating what you can smoke and drink and sniff, and
indoctrinating children into and enforcing the rules of the
locally preferred religion.

While they may pay lip service to it, they care little for the first
amendment (except as it assures //them// the right to express
//their// views or practice //their// religion). Sure, they'll wave
the flag and mouth the words 'Constitution' and 'Bill of Rights', but
their solution to every disagreement is 'put them in jail' or 'pass
another law'.


Frondeur

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From jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Tue Nov  4 12:26:31 1997
From: jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:26:31 +0800
Subject: Senate Commerce cmte approves tax freedom bill 14-5
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b0851e2b3faf@[204.254.22.214]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971104124700.18286Q-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> >The full Senate Commerce Committee voted today 14-5 to approve an amended
> >version of the Internet Tax Freedom Act.  Here's how members voted:
> >
> >14 Yes: McCain, Stevens, Burns, Snowe, Ashcroft, Frist, Abraham, Brownback,
> >Hollings, Inouye, Rockefeller, Kerry, Breaux, Wyden
> >5 No: Gorton, Hutchinson, Ford, Bryan, Dorgan
> >1 Did not vote: Lott
> 

Hmmmm.  With a yes vote from the above mentioned parties I wonder
what the possible implications are.  Specifically McCain, Inouye and
Rockefeller.

Ashcroft has been pro internet for years so I'm not concerned.

Is there anything in the ITFA that assigns specific powers that
didn't exist before?  Like a Federal Tax on Internet Access?

Interesting.

jim

-----
Jim Burnes
Security Software Engineer, SSDS Inc.
Denver, CO
Remove the n-o-s-p-a-m. from my email to respond
-----








From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov  4 12:29:44 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:29:44 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104162419Z-34904@mail.entrust.com>
Message-ID: <199711042002.PAA28874@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse 
>>than no security at all".

>>I doubt that you would find few if any that would agree with you that  it
>>is a good thing having the masses using weak crypto. At least the US
>>members of the Open-PGP group are willing to sacrifice overseas sales  in
>>the effort to provide STRONG crypto to EVERYONE. It is the right thing 
>>to do. I am sorry to see that you do not uderstand this.

In
<c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104162419Z-34904 at mail.entrust.com>,
on 11/04/97 
   at 11:24 AM, Ian Clysdale <iancly at entrust.com> said:


>   Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is 
>rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak 
>crypto in certain circumstances, when it is KNOWN to be weak.   The 
>phrase "Poor security is worse than no security" refers to the dangers 
>in assuming that your communications are secure, even when they're  not. 
>If you know that your cryptography is weak, it can still  sometimes be
>sufficient for your purposes. What weak cryptography does  is protect
>from passive attacks, such as simple wire-tapping.  While  an RC2/40
>message can be trivially broken in a matter of hours, it  can't be broken
>in real-time.  If EVERYONE used even RC2/40, then  passive attacks would
>be foiled, because the <insert evil NSA/CSIS/etc  here> just isn't going
>to bother breaking every single transmitted  message.
>   Now, of course, if you're doing something where you don't want your 
>communications to be intercepted under any circumstances, then you  want
>to be using something stronger than RC2/40.  However, S/MIME  doesn't
>prevent that at all.  DES is a published standard, and I'm  waiting for
>somebody outside of the USA to implement triple-DES with  S/MIME.  This
>will inter-operate with Outlook and Netscape clients  inside the USA
>(theoretically).
>   Including a minimum baseline of weak cryptography is NOT denying 
>strong cryptography to everyone.  Once the patent on RC2 expires  (which
>is very soon) or if RSA gets dropped on their head and finally  does the
>intelligent move of releasing it to the public domain, then  S/MIME
>provides an expandable infrastructure for secure mail, with a  huge user
>base already out there, and in a form much more spoonable to  the
>unwashed masses.

This is nothing but selfserving bullshit in a vain effort to justify YOUR
sellout for a paycheck.


Your product will use WEAK RC2/40 DOMESTICALLY as long as it is
communicating with someone useing these weak keys. How does your program
warn the user that the crypto being used is unacceptable?? Does it warn
them at all?? Does it refuse to use the WEAK crypto?? I know I get no
warning from NS if weak keys are being used, just the happy key to tell me
everything is ok. Do you see this as a GoodThing(TM)?? WEAK crypto is WEAK
crypto and should not be tolerated in any way shape or form. 

Having a minimum baseline of weak crypto is not a GoodThing(TM) it is a
BadThing(TM). If the people at Entrust can't figure that out then I have
serious question as to the security and quality of your product regardless
of the algorthims being used!!

PS: Please learn how to set up your mailer so that it quotes properly.
<sigh> one would think that someone in this business could grasp such
basic concepts.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNF9+wI9Co1n+aLhhAQFFmQQAwCkTiFRFkwzAKiN6fticBSDWLFBktCA/
Wmkr627F3MkTYEmESrtXdlFAB44rvuDsK65VT1SHvvpFzzhDxL3l/ZB3Jl8toWQs
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From declan at well.com  Tue Nov  4 12:36:46 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:36:46 +0800
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
Message-ID: <v03007804b0853170bbd3@[204.254.22.175]>



Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) is the chairman of the Senate appropriations
committee's subcommittee that funds the FBI. Today he spoke at
Digital/AltaVista's "Summit on Internet Content Filtering & Third-Party
Rating." He said that he "disagreed with the Supreme Court" ruling that
struck down the CDA as unconstitutional. He praised the FCC and the V-chip.
He also said:

"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
period."

Uh-huh.

-Declan







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 13:14:29 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:14:29 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: <199711042050.VAA08680@basement.replay.com>



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >>There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse
> >>than no security at all".

>    at 11:24 AM, Ian Clysdale <iancly at entrust.com> said:
> 
> >   Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is
> >rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak
> >crypto in certain circumstances

> This is nothing but selfserving bullshit in a vain effort to justify YOUR
> sellout for a paycheck.

Nortel is nothing more than a Canadian schill for the SnoopSpooks.

Just as the INSLAW Thieves & Murderers used Indian Reservations in an
attempt to pretend that they weren't breaking US law because their
actions were taking place on the soil of a Soverign Nation, the US
criminals use the same bullshit logic to circumvent the laws that
apply to their illegal actions.

It is no coincidence that Nortel is the nesting place of a wide
variety of censorship vermin such as Chris Lewis, and his ilk.
An analysis of a number of employees of Nortel and their bum
buddies shows that the time spent in their output of UseNet
cancels and FUD posts and emails corresponds to the hours of
a corporate work schedule.

Nortel is nothing more than a front for the SnoopSpooks who 
want to capitalize on Canada's image as a Soverign Country
to push their backdoor products in the global community.
These are the same lame fuckers who pulled off this act
in Switzerland, with governments and corporations buying
security products from a country noted for its neutrality,
and then finding out later that it was a front for a
German company that had the CIA's nose up their butt.

It amazes me that corporations and governments put their trust
in any company with the word 'Security' in its name, without
doing a check on their backgrounds and connections that is
at least as intensive as they would do for a new employee.






From ed at justanote.com  Wed Nov  5 05:22:18 1997
From: ed at justanote.com (ed at justanote.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:22:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Congress values your opinion
Message-ID: <199711030601.BAA29226@eclipse.freemanchester.com>


Visit this URL: http://www.netline-to-congress.com/ and cast a vote that really counts.





From star at 1daystar.com  Wed Nov  5 05:23:49 1997
From: star at 1daystar.com (star at 1daystar.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:23:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: UCE - Puts money in YOUR pocket!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@1daystar.com>


***********************************************************************************************************
This list has been run through all known remove lists.  If we missed you and want to removed
from this list, reply to neweb at 1daystar.com with "remove" in the subject field.  
***********************************************************************************************************

Work SMART......not hard!

Make $THOUSANDS$ a week and do absolutely NOTHING except pass out this 800
number with your code number.   NO SELLING! NO HASSLE! A NO BRAINER!!

This company does the selling for you,  closes the deal,  and sends you your
money every Friday.

Don't miss this opportunity! Call now!

1-800-811-2141   Code #44737  (This is HOT!  If it is busy, keep trying).

In Canada call 1-800-588-9786  Code #44737

PS.  The company is Fortune 5000.  They have been in business 15 months and are
registered with the BBB in Junction City, KS.










From phelix at vallnet.com  Tue Nov  4 13:32:33 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:32:33 +0800
Subject: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>
Message-ID: <345f8817.3651882@128.2.84.191>



On 4 Nov 1997 14:08:19 -0600, kraiwut at samart.co.th wrote:

>
>Profiling/personal computer security at Ben Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv
>I just had a rather unholy experience in Israel. Maybe someone with
>expertise can email me a few suggestions with regards to securing a PC at
>start up.
>
[ long horror story deleted]
>
>What can I do to make the computer fucking impenetrable at start up? --- to
>the point that they have to ask me for the password or  nothing moves. 

Nothing can stop them completely from starting up your machine.  The best
thing you can do is to use a bios password, but that won't hold up if
somebody cracks open the machine.

If somebody can get physical control of your computer, they can start it
up.  However, that doesn't mean that they can run anything important.
Encrypt your files and install everything on one of the secure filesystems
floating around ( like SFS from
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/sfs.html ).

Also check out the following site for a description of a secure notebook
machine:

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/cbintro.html

-- Phelix






From Money at cyber-pages.net  Wed Nov  5 05:42:54 1997
From: Money at cyber-pages.net (Money at cyber-pages.net)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:42:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: #36,000 in 14 Weeks
Message-ID: <>


The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown



 "Please Read This Twice!" 

 Dear friend,

 =========================================================
 =========================================================
 I've always been skeptical of programs like this. But, after quadrupling
my initial investment in 1 week, I became a believer!
 If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION,  please do not click
reply, 
 use the contact information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
 =========================================================
 =========================================================

              *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

 The following income opportunity is one you may be intersested in 
taking a 
 look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income
return
 is TREMENDOUS!!!  

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
 Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


 This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the 
 program...  THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever
 see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of
 money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever
 growing population which needs additional income.

 This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not
 require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
 of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If
you 
 believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been
 waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your
 dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing program
works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start
their
 own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is
 your chance, so don't pass it up.

 OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC 
 MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

 Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product
for 
 $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all
 multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new
partners
 and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit
 new multi- level business online (with your computer).

 The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial
 reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the
e-mail
 address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the
product to
 the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST
 electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!


 FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
 Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
 So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!


         ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

 This is what you MUST do:

 1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
     For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
     RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.
     When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
     will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on
     your computer and reselling them.

 2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
     instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
     should.

     Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
     the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
     address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
     under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
     REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
     the bank.

     When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
     address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
     positions!

 3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
     and save it on your computer.

 4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
     avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
     these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
     AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

 REQUIRED REPORTS

 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

 ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC
REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR
PRIORITY MAIL AND
PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #1
   "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
   
     TSH        
     P.O. Box 11115
     MANASSAS PARK, VA 20113

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #2
   "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

     L Jones
     3320 48th St
     Des Moines, IA  50310

-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #3
   "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

   ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

     G. D. Enterprises
     P.O. Box 197
     Charlestown, MD 21914


-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #4
   "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

        Chris Miller
        960 Laurel Springs Lane
        Marietta, GA 30064-3961
-------------------------------------------------


 HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume
 your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better
 response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION
 gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING
 results below.

 1st level --  your 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                     
$50
 2nd level --10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)                  $500
 3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)           $5,000
 4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     $50,000
                                 THIS TOTALS----------->       $55,550

 Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
 only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
 happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get
 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

 By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.
 You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!
 REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing
 email lists.

 REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!



 *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY,
 so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
 When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/
 report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,
 Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
 also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
 state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
    instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


 *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

         The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
 You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If
 you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
 until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at
 least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send
 out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more
 orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way
 to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

 REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in
 front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
 by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

 NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business
 name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the
Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and
answers to
 questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via
telephone
 and free seminars about business taxes.



         ******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

 This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
 rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work,
 you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really
is a
great
 opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If
you
 do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on
your
 way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in
financial
 trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                                         Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                         Sincerely, Chris Johnson

 P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks
 like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

         My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.
 I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
 pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris
 about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting
 my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it
 wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
 jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
 to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
 well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50
 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!
 I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't 
 work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby.
I
did
 have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race"
and
 it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
                                         Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

 I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. 
 Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even
 checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.  
 It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                                         Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

 This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I 
 participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised
 when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered
 off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens
 of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their
 good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
                                         Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK

 The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

 This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders
 OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you
follow
 the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not
better.
 Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
                                         Good Luck!  G. Bank

         Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make
 up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am
 I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
 just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money
 back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box
 crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to
 start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this
 year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this
 deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.
 There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                                 Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

         I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later
 I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
 idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I
 was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I
 didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
                                         D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

         This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have
 quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live
 off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan
 will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's
 sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order
 your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create
 too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
                                         Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

         Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to
 know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for
 my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention
 for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly
 from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been
 trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well
 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded
 and I'm sure the other will be soon!
                                         Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

 ====================================================

 We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!  

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
 STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!






From Money at cyber-pages.net  Wed Nov  5 05:42:54 1997
From: Money at cyber-pages.net (Money at cyber-pages.net)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:42:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: #36,000 in 14 Weeks
Message-ID: <>


The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown



 "Please Read This Twice!" 

 Dear friend,

 =========================================================
 =========================================================
 I've always been skeptical of programs like this. But, after quadrupling
my initial investment in 1 week, I became a believer!
 If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION,  please do not click
reply, 
 use the contact information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
 =========================================================
 =========================================================

              *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

 The following income opportunity is one you may be intersested in 
taking a 
 look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income
return
 is TREMENDOUS!!!  

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
 Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


 This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the 
 program...  THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever
 see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of
 money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever
 growing population which needs additional income.

 This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not
 require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
 of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If
you 
 believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been
 waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your
 dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing program
works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start
their
 own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is
 your chance, so don't pass it up.

 OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC 
 MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

 Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product
for 
 $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all
 multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new
partners
 and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit
 new multi- level business online (with your computer).

 The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial
 reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the
e-mail
 address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the
product to
 the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST
 electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!


 FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
 Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
 So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!


         ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

 This is what you MUST do:

 1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
     For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
     RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.
     When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
     will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on
     your computer and reselling them.

 2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
     instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
     should.

     Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
     the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
     address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
     under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
     REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
     the bank.

     When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
     address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
     positions!

 3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
     and save it on your computer.

 4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
     avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
     these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
     AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

 REQUIRED REPORTS

 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

 ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC
REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR
PRIORITY MAIL AND
PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #1
   "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
   
     TSH        
     P.O. Box 11115
     MANASSAS PARK, VA 20113

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #2
   "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

     L Jones
     3320 48th St
     Des Moines, IA  50310

-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #3
   "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

   ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

     G. D. Enterprises
     P.O. Box 197
     Charlestown, MD 21914


-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #4
   "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

        Chris Miller
        960 Laurel Springs Lane
        Marietta, GA 30064-3961
-------------------------------------------------


 HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume
 your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better
 response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION
 gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING
 results below.

 1st level --  your 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                     
$50
 2nd level --10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)                  $500
 3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)           $5,000
 4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     $50,000
                                 THIS TOTALS----------->       $55,550

 Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
 only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
 happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get
 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

 By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.
 You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!
 REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing
 email lists.

 REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!



 *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY,
 so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
 When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/
 report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,
 Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
 also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
 state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
    instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


 *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

         The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
 You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If
 you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
 until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at
 least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send
 out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more
 orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way
 to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

 REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in
 front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
 by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

 NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business
 name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the
Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and
answers to
 questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via
telephone
 and free seminars about business taxes.



         ******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

 This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
 rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work,
 you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really
is a
great
 opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If
you
 do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on
your
 way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in
financial
 trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                                         Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                         Sincerely, Chris Johnson

 P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks
 like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

         My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.
 I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
 pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris
 about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting
 my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it
 wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
 jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
 to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
 well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50
 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!
 I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't 
 work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby.
I
did
 have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race"
and
 it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
                                         Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

 I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. 
 Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even
 checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.  
 It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                                         Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

 This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I 
 participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised
 when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered
 off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens
 of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their
 good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
                                         Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK

 The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

 This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders
 OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you
follow
 the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not
better.
 Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
                                         Good Luck!  G. Bank

         Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make
 up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am
 I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
 just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money
 back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box
 crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to
 start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this
 year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this
 deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.
 There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                                 Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

         I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later
 I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
 idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I
 was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I
 didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
                                         D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

         This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have
 quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live
 off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan
 will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's
 sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order
 your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create
 too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
                                         Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

         Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to
 know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for
 my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention
 for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly
 from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been
 trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well
 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded
 and I'm sure the other will be soon!
                                         Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

 ====================================================

 We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!  

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
 STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!






From mhw at wittsend.com  Tue Nov  4 14:10:58 1997
From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:10:58 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711040540.AAA03771@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: <199711042146.QAA02613@alcove.wittsend.com>



Mark Rogaski enscribed thusly:
> An entity claiming to be Anonymous wrote:
	:
	: - Some of message deleted
	:
> : > No source no security.
> : 
> : You don't trust Schneier?  You've seen the limitations of source code
> : release.  Experts like Schneier and his team designing the crypto is
> : worth more than a bunch of know nothings scratching their heads and
> : wondering where to begin with 1000+ pages of source code.

> If the source were available, there would be no need to trust Schneier.
> I trust his expertise, but have no basis (or inclination) to make guesses
> about his character.  No matter how many people refer to Applied Crypto as
> "a Bible", it's not the kind of book that encourages blind faith.

	Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
whatever they are telling us.  And I agree...  No source, no security.
Windows only...  No way...

	Bruce?

> Doc
> 
> -- 
> [] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
> [] wendigo at pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw at WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!






From phelix at vallnet.com  Tue Nov  4 14:15:31 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:15:31 +0800
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0853170bbd3@[204.254.22.175]>
Message-ID: <3460988a.7864170@128.2.84.191>



On 4 Nov 1997 15:38:41 -0600, Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> wrote:

>
>Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) is the chairman of the Senate appropriations
>committee's subcommittee that funds the FBI. Today he spoke at
>Digital/AltaVista's "Summit on Internet Content Filtering & Third-Party
>Rating." He said that he "disagreed with the Supreme Court" ruling that
>struck down the CDA as unconstitutional. He praised the FCC and the V-chip.
>He also said:
>
>"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
>explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
>period."
>

Oh God. Please tell me they're not going to rehash that shit again (More
than anything, what's CMU now known for:  censorship.  makes me embarassed
to have a degree from that place.)

-- Phelix






From aleph at cco.caltech.edu  Tue Nov  4 14:22:49 1997
From: aleph at cco.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:22:49 +0800
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0853170bbd3@[204.254.22.175]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971104140135.00cbf7b0@pop-server.caltech.edu>



At 03:13 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) said:
>
>"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
>explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
>period."
>
	They spent 18 months searching and they only found a combined total
917,410 instances of the above?  That's hilarious!  It's times like these
that remind me that parents really do need to watch out for what their kids
do on the net.  Of course far more than 917,410 people are killed every 18
months in car accidents, so the net shouldn't be at the top of the list of
scary things a parent has to deal with by a long shot.  Good advice: Never
let your children use search engines.  _I_ can rarely find what I want
using them.  


                             -Colin






From jlhoffm at ibm.net  Wed Nov  5 06:25:29 1997
From: jlhoffm at ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:25:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
Message-ID: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>


From: Lizard <lizard at mrlizard.com>:
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
===========
Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
finally noticed something about Christians....
Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments, which is a hell of a
lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
how to conduct a Passover service!  Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
same as being "kind of" pregnant.

(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361





From askcarl at adelphia.net  Tue Nov  4 14:37:43 1997
From: askcarl at adelphia.net (Carl Beasley)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:37:43 +0800
Subject: maillist
Message-ID: <345F9F6A.5C77371C@adelphia.net>



please include me on the mail list.

thank you

carl






From berezina at qed.net  Wed Nov  5 06:52:33 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:52:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why, Jodi Hoffman?
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <346184a7.1422966@mail.qed.net>


Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>From: Lizard <lizard at mrlizard.com>:
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)

Lizard's a Semite. Could you cite examples of "anti-Semetic spears"?

Paul

The final elegance, not to console
Nor sanctify, but plainly to propound.





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Nov  4 14:53:21 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:53:21 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199711042232.WAA04306@server.test.net>




Monty writes:
> >What language did you have in mind?  modula-3?  iso-pascal/borland
> >pascal?
> 
> Hadn't thought of Modula-3, but that is an excellent idea.  Java would
> be a candidate, although performance is an issue.  

Java isn't so bad.  Just in time compilers are being shipped with some
browsers (netscape on some platforms).  Sun now has native bigint
library (good for you know what, and exportable because they haven't
included the few lines required to implement public key encryption
with it).

Modula-3 is also fairly clean... garbage collection, bounds checked
arrays, etc.  A `safe' language.  There is indeed a m3 -> c
translator.  I think GNU were working on a m3 module for their
retargetable gcc compiler suite (to go with ada, C, fortran, pascal).
I did hear talk of a java gcc front end also.

> While it may seem crazy to toss compatibility, it has some advantages.
> For instance, the only people who will use it are the hardcore types.
> I like the idea of an exclusive crypto system that only cool people
> who are fairly with it use.

I think there would be advantages to always tunneling the encrypted
messages inside PGP, that way no snoops know you're using it, until
it's too late.

> How about finding a way to eliminate indicators?  It's nice not to
> leak any information at all.  It also makes super-encryption stronger.
> If each encrypted layer looks like noise, the total key size is the
> sum of the bits of each layer.

That's a reasonable idea if you're going to use things like IDEA( k1,
3DES( k2, data ) ).

> If the protocol doesn't accept multiple keys for a message it is
> slightly CAK/GAK resistent.  And, it's a nice statement of intent.
> It's also nice to have tools which help you to behave securely without
> carefully thinking about it when you are using them.

Forward secrecy is what you want for GAK resistance -- can't get much
more GAK hostile than burning your keys seconds after message receipt.

> The randseed.bin file has always bothered me.  What we really want is
> some good sources of entropy in which we have tremendous confidence.

What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
your passphrase.

> >If you use PGP's random pool, one suspects that if IDEA becomes
> >attackable at some point in the future the random pool will start to
> >look more like a predictable PRNG to the attacker.
> >
> >I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
> >more suspect.
> 
> Well, neither of these would be good for a one time pad, of course.

Linux's /dev/random might not be bad.  There is some real entropy in
key strokes and mouse movements, and they are quite conservative about
entropy estimation.  You can easily make it more conservative -- XOR
together a load of it to derive a smaller key.

> It would be neat to have, say, three sources of hardware randomness
> and then XOR the result with the above pseudo random output.

That'd be fine.  Personally not being a hardware type, I am suspicious
of hardware RNGs.. I can't tell when they are going wrong.. failure
modes can be dangerous (whoops lead fell of geiger tube), etc.
Software and computers are easier to understand.  Provided you XOR the
lot together you should be fine though.

> You know, it would be cool to define a software architecture for
> remailer software.  Different remailers have different properties and
> different strategies.  They may continue to differentiate.

One thing that is sorely needed in my opinion is a simple way to
integrate with existing mailers.  Ie to have some code which acts as
an interface between various extensible email based functions
(remailers, signatures, DC nets, keyservers) and MUAs.  Then someone
gets to fight with the plugin API once, and after that we can
automatically add features which work with lots of MUAs.

The future is in extensibility.  Java is pretty good for this.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Nov  4 14:54:32 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:54:32 +0800
Subject: Charityware
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b083a67344ca@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711042214.WAA04293@server.test.net>




Tim May <tcmay at got.net> writes:
> Monty writes:
> >The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
> >cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
> >it clear from day one that it is not free software.  
> 
> _This_ cryptoanarchist will almost _never_ pay for that which is free.

It depends what you call free.  If someone puts a copy of eudora pro
5.67 or whatever other commercial software up on the eternity service,
is that "free"?

It is free to the extent that it is unlikely that you will be caught.
It is even less likely that you will be caught if you are a nym using
remailers mostly.

The difference with an anonymous cryptoanarchist run software house is
that you know that they probably aren't paying taxes on their sales.
So you have additional assurance that they can't touch you if you use
their software -- they'd have to blow their cover unless they just
made a donation to AP or something:-)

People copy commercial software all the time.  I suspect only some
small fraction of personal use software is ever paid for.  Companies
are less likely to do this because they are larger and more worth
going after, and because the SPA software police have caused some
companies problems already.

The shareware, beggarware, or "charityware" approach of giving it away
for free, and then demanding or begging payment is partly an
acknowledgement that there is no way to stop you redistributing it
even if they demanded payment up front.  Plus the advantage that you
get free distribution, if people like it, it'll be all over the place
in no time.  Beggarware has worked for a few people, I think, perhaps
ID software's DOOM was one example.  Yes most people didn't pay, but
the free advertising more than compensated I suspect.

We to frown on protocols which rely on "please give me money", or "and
then we call the cops".  Payment protocols should be clean.

One alternative which Intel is brewing up for us is clipper CPUs which
do things against their owners interests, like encrypted instruction
schemes... nasty stuff.  This would then be used to ensure your copy
of the software won't run on other peoples machines.  That could be
enabling technology for all sorts of snooping.

One idea which I did like was the open bidding for a product to be
developed, people interested in the feature or product pay how much it
is worth to them up front, developers bid to take the job on.  After
it's done the software is freeware.  Supporting ideas discussed before
on this topic are that first to complete gets paid, or lowest bidder
presents completion bond, and that there are independent aribitrators
checking quality.

There was someone who posted to the list that he was going to set this
up.  He even purchased the domain name if I recall.  What happened,
did anything come of it?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Nov  4 14:54:44 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:54:44 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <t53yb35r8pl.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <199711042243.WAA04316@server.test.net>




Marc Horowitz <marc at cygnus.com> writes:
> As long as it's cheaper or more convenient to buy digital media from
> the publisher than to copy it yourself, the piracy problem basically
> doesn't exist.
> [...]
> I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem,
> outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.

That principle works to some extent, particularly for the bandwidth
impoverished, and the currently bloated games software trying to fill
CD-ROMs with unnecessary junk for one presumes this very purpose.

Leave the bandwidth a while, and the problem may arise again.

I wonder at 2c/minute, say 2k/sec (28.8 modem) that's 6Mb/$ for me
(don't have free local call UK side).  That's $100 for a 600Mb CD!

So as long as the CD costs under $100 and the unnecessary bloatware is
hard for a warez hacker to strip out, that makes it worth buying the
CD.

Another advantage of having the CD is that it's a backup copy, and you
can keep large stuff (say electronic copies of manuals) on it without
chewing up disk space which is more expensive.

Be interesting to see what happens to software copyright as bandwidth
gets more plentiful, as huge solid state mass storage gets cheaper,
and as information becomes harder to track with widespread crypto, and
nicer anonymous protocols enabled by high bandwidth everywhere come
online.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From spector at zeitgeist.com  Tue Nov  4 15:10:40 1997
From: spector at zeitgeist.com (David HM Spector)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:10:40 +0800
Subject: Smartcards - Drivers Licenses in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103001906.0356e594@rboc.net>
Message-ID: <199711042303.SAA28199@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>



Robert, 

Um.... I think you are over stating things "just a little"...

The URL you referenced says:

	
	"State policy makers and officials are CONSIDERING [emphasis
	added] innovative plans to develop a smart driver's
	license. IF IMPLEMENTED,[emphasis added] New Jersey would be
	the first state in the nation to require drivers to carry the
	new "smart card," which will look more like a credit card... "
			:
			:
	<other stuff about contents of the smartcard not included>



There are plenty of things in the world of information privacy to get
hysterical about; but please lets not proclaim them realities before
they actually are...

Having said that... if you live in the Garden State, get on the phone
to your state legislators and express your concerns on this troubling
idea and how it may be used before is DOES become something to scream
about....


David


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector at zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security                 voice: +1 212.579.8573
Amateur Radio: W2DHM (ex-N2BCA) (ARRL life member)       GridSquare: FN30AS
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells






From j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net  Wed Nov  5 07:19:48 1997
From: j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net (James S. Tyre)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:19:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105071748.00776524@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>


At 02:23 PM 11/5/97 +0000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>From: Lizard <lizard at mrlizard.com>:
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
>===========
>Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
>finally noticed something about Christians....
>Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
>(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments, which is a hell of a
>lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
>Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
>how to conduct a Passover service!  Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
>is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
>same as being "kind of" pregnant.
>
>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)

The spears I would chuck would be anti-ignorance, not anti-Sem*i*tic
(spelling counts).

But I won't chuck them, because I have suddenly seen the light that the
religion I have practiced for almost half a century is a joke.  And I've
also just been enlightened that all of the members of my shul are jokes
too.  Damn, I've just come to realize that even my Rabbi is a joke.  (Well,
you may have a point there -- he is pretty funny.)  I'd like to go ask my
grandparents about this, but, alas, I can't.  See, 3/4 of them never quite
made it out of the camps alive.  So in their absense, I am ever so grateful
that you have chosen to explain my life to me.

I do have a question, though -- actually, two.

First, are you Orthodox?  I would not dream of presuming about you, even
though you seem to know all about me.

Second, do you believe that there is only one true flavor of Christianity,
or are you more tolerant of your Christian friends?  If there is only one
true Christianity, btw, please be so kind as let the world know what it is.

-Jim, the kind of pregnant conservative Jew, who knows full well how to
lead a Seder.





From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov  5 09:02:14 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:02:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Final Call for Papers
Message-ID: <v03110700b086549b8a27@[139.167.130.248]>



--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:23:39 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: online.offshore.com.ai: list set sender to
fc98-request at offshore.com.ai using -f
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:18:09 +0100 (MET)
From: Ray Hirschfeld <R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl>
To: R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Final Call for Papers
Resent-From: fc98 at offshore.com.ai
X-Mailing-List: <fc98 at offshore.com.ai> archive/latest
X-Loop: fc98 at offshore.com.ai
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: fc98-request at offshore.com.ai

		      Financial Cryptography '98
		   Second International Conference
		 February 23-26, 1998, Anguilla, BWI
			FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '98 (FC98) is a conference on the security of
digital financial transactions.  Meetings alternate between the island
of Anguilla in the British West Indies and other locations.  This
second meeting will be held in Anguilla on February 23-26, 1998.  FC98
aims to bring together persons involved in both the financial and data
security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas.

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including

    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility
    Authentication                          Home Banking
    Communication Security                  Identification
    Conditional Access                      Implementations
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability


Instructions for Authors:

Send a cover letter and 12 copies of an extended abstract to be
received by November 17, 1997 (or postmarked by November 7, 1997 and
sent via airmail) to the Program Chair at the address given below.

The extended abstract (a short draft of the full paper, typically 10
pages in length) should start with the title, the names of the
authors, and an abstract followed by a succinct statement appropriate
for a non-specialist reader specifying the subject addressed, its
background, the main achievements, and their significance to financial
data security.  Submissions are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of
12pt type.  Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to
authors no later than January 12, 1998.

Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will
be presented at the conference.


Proceedings:

Proceedings of the conference will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.
Instructions and deadlines for submission of final papers will be sent
later to authors of accepted papers.


Rump Session:

In addition to the regular conference program, a rump session will be
held to provide an opportunity for less formal presentations.
Although the rump session will be organized during the conference
itself, any advance proposals may be sent to the Program Co-Chair at
the email address given below.  Rump session contributions will not
appear in the conference proceedings.


Stipends:

A very limited number of stipends may be available to those unable to
obtain funding to attend the conference.  Students whose papers are
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to
apply if such assistance is needed.  Requests for stipends should be
addressed to one of the General Chairs.


Registration:

Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Anguilla itself will follow in a separate general announcement.  There
are special reduced registration rates for full-time academics and
students.  Further information about registration is available online
via the URL listed below.


Workshop:

A workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software development
experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with
FC98, to be held during the week following the conference.  Further
information about the workshop is available online via the URL listed
below.  For information about workshop registration, please contact
one of the General Chairs.


Special Attraction:

On Thursday, February 26, 1998, there will be a total eclipse of the
sun.  The narrow zone of 100% totality will pass just south of
Anguilla, and there should be an excellent view of the eclipse from
the conference site.


Send Submissions to:

Rafael Hirschfeld
FC98 Program Chair
CWI
Kruislaan 413
1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
email: ray at cwi.nl
phone: +31 20 592 4169
fax: +31 20 592 4199


Send Rump Session Contributions to:

Matthew Franklin
FC98 Program Co-Chair
email: franklin at research.att.com


Program Committee:

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY, USA


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rah at shipwright.com
Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI
   email: vince at offshore.com.ai


Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA
   email: julie at sneaker.net


Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA
   email: iang at cs.berkeley.edu


Financial Cryptography '98 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

FC98 is sponsored by:
RSA Data Security Inc. <http://www.rsa.com>
C2NET, Inc. <http://www.c2.net>
Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, Anguilla <http://www.hansa.net/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com>

Those interested in becoming a sponsor of FC98 or in purchasing
exhibit space, please contact the Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager.

A copy of this call for papers as well as other information about the
conference will be available at URL http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From ronc at deming.com  Tue Nov  4 17:19:40 1997
From: ronc at deming.com (Ron Craswell)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:40 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Deming_Software.%l=CANE-971105003101Z-2767@cane.deming.com>




On Tuesday, November 04, 1997 7:23 AM, 
William H. Geiger III [SMTP:whgiii at invweb.net] wrote:
> 
> To create an S/MIME compliant application one MUST implement RC2/40 and
> one MUST pay RSA to do so!!

Just to set things a little straight, RSA posted an internet draft
describing the RC2 algorithm (draft-rivest-rc2desc) on June 23 of this
year.  RSA has maintained trademark rights to the _name_ "RC2" but
you're free to implement the algorithm and call it "RC2 compatible" and
pay RSA nothing.

> This is the BIG difference between S/MIME and Open-PGP. In Open-PGP there
> is no MUST to implemnet weak crypto. In Open-PGP there is no MUST to
> implement propritary algoritms.

The other big difference is that you are comparing something that exists
with something that doesn't.  In order to level the playing field, let's
compare two things that don't exist -- OpenPGP and S/MIME v3.

The current intent for S/MIME v3 is that the only MUST algorithm set is
DH / El Gamal / 3DES for encryption and DH / DSS for signatures. All
free, all strong (in theory <g>).

> I think that this should be simple enough for anyone here to understand.

I think that this should be simple enough for anyone here to understand.

--
Ron Craswell
Worldtalk Corp.






From mack97 at erols.com  Tue Nov  4 17:19:48 1997
From: mack97 at erols.com (A. C. Szul)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:48 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103220718.00c60100@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <34600224.46B4@erols.com>



Colin A. Reed wrote:
> 
> I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
> promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
> monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
> now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
> Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
> children the truth instead of made up fantasies.  Unreasonable fear is very
> harmful to anyone's mental health, especially children.
--------------------->snip>------------------------

"Fear can only prevail when victims are ignorant of the facts." - Thomas
Jefferson

-A
http://www.erols.com/mack97
"The sharpest tool in the shed." -- anonymous






From jlhoffm at ibm.net  Tue Nov  4 17:19:53 1997
From: jlhoffm at ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:53 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345FC025.852@ibm.net>



Jesus Christ wrote:
> 
> Jodi "I'm not *really* a Jew, but I play one on the InterNet" Hoffman
> wrote:
> > TruthMonger wrote:
> > <snipped, because Jodi CAN'T HANDLE the TruthMonger>
> 
> > Monger:
> > Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> > By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> > #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
> >
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> 
> Jodi,
>   As you already know, I have been on extended leave from the world
> for some time, having gone to visit my Father, to prepare for taking
> over the family business.
>   I've been catching up on my reading, in preparation for my return
> in the near future, and I came across a book, "The Jesus Principle,"
> which claimed that the Christian Coalition and the self-proclaimed
> Moral Majority were making plans to launch a secret assault on the
> electorate, pushing their hidden agendas while covering up the true
> source of their Christian propaganda.
>   Naturally, I laughed this off as ridiculous, but I seem to be
> encountering more and more evidence of this indeed being the case.
> 
>   I am particularly perturbed by those who are doing a very, very
> bad job of disguising their true intentions, goals, their hidden
> connections and secret agendas.
>   In an increasingly InterNet savy world, no one who is paying
> attention is going to miss the fact that your webspace is on
> The Christian Interactive Network, which goes to great lengths
> to make certain that those who visit their web site are made
> aware that the CIN "is a 501 C (3) Nonprofit Ministry", and that
> "All donations are tax exempt," so that contribitors can shift
> the tax burden to non-Christians while using their own tax-exempt
> money to support Christian political agendas under the guise of
> religion.
> 
>   If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
> that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
>   {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
>    Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}
> 
> Love,
>  ~JC~
> "Yes I _do_ *'love'* the little children." <nod-nod, wink-wink>==============
You're a bright one, aren't you?  
Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
and trouble to write so damn much.....
CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
think that was very generous of them, don't you?

Bracing For Your Next Flame...
Jodi
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361






From lizard at mrlizard.com  Tue Nov  4 17:27:42 1997
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:27:42 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971104170109.00c98970@dnai.com>



At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>You're a bright one, aren't you?  
>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
>think that was very generous of them, don't you?

So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.






From hayden at phoenix.net  Tue Nov  4 17:40:58 1997
From: hayden at phoenix.net (hayden at phoenix.net)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:40:58 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345F1DC1.3AC6@phoenix.net>



I want to make a short comment-
First of all,
most of the Christians I know --in fact all-
dont use this kind of profanity that Jodi is using.
So I would not label her a "religous righter"
All this labeling of RRs and fundamentalists has to stop.
I believe in a fairly  literal interpretation of the bible(Lets not get into that) but--
I dont fit in your jar of fundamentalism and Jodi doesnt fit in mine--
Stereotypes of RRs are inaccurate as a whole.

You guys are preaching Free speech and acceptance and equality-
yet you are guilty of the very sins of hate  which you condemn others of.

:-)

BTW-
I found the mockery of Jesus offensive.

I am looking forward to some more posts on cyber stuff.
Before we got off on this tangent I was learning faster from this list about the net 
and its possibilities than I could ever teach myself.
Thanks!






From remailer at htp.org  Tue Nov  4 17:44:32 1997
From: remailer at htp.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:44:32 +0800
Subject: Forging your return address.
In-Reply-To: <345F5723.44A3@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <19971105012501.13508.qmail@nsm.htp.org>



>Sympatico Admin wrote:
>> Hi Larry,
      ^^^^^
Eek!  The snakes of Medusa?!!






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Tue Nov  4 18:00:59 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:00:59 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <199711041609.QAA03086@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971104185935.27758B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>





On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 ichudov at algebra.com wrote:

> This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> after baiting you so successfully.
> 
> I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> what she wrote, seriously.
> 
> 

I don't care, as long as she keeps writing. I love it when she talks 
dirty. There aren't many web sites dedicated to abnormal marsupial 
lifestyles, so I have to get my fun where I can.  Since my parents 
have installed NetNanny on my TRS80, thre's not much left for me.

OTOH, it might just be Toto sending another forge, trying to convince Tim 
May that Toto is actually Anita Bryant.

r.w.






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov  4 18:18:16 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:18:16 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <akicAIDdlwk83mHqUg3IQg==@bureau42.ml.org>



Adam Back writes:

> People copy commercial software all the time.  I suspect only some
> small fraction of personal use software is ever paid for.  Companies
> are less likely to do this

Companies do it because the boss can instruct the underlings to
do multi installs and then deny he did so.  Doesn't work on
pig-headed "Can I have that in writing" types (like me).


> One idea which I did like was the open bidding for a product to be
> developed, people interested in the feature or product pay how much it
> is worth to them up front, developers bid to take the job on.  After
> it's done the software is freeware.  Supporting ideas discussed before
> on this topic are that first to complete gets paid, or lowest bidder
> presents completion bond, and that there are independent aribitrators
> checking quality.

> There was someone who posted to the list that he was going to set this
> up.  He even purchased the domain name if I recall.  What happened,
> did anything come of it?


Bounty Software Group (BOUNTY3-DOM)
   818 West Sunnyside, Apt 3b.
   Chicago, IL 60640
   US

   Domain Name: BOUNTY.ORG

   Administrative Contact:
      Petro, Christopher  (CP588)  petro at SUBA.COM
      312.784.0099
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Strasheim, Alex R.  (AS55)  alex at SUBA.COM
      (312) 929-8008
   Billing Contact:
      Petro, Christopher  (CP588)  petro at SUBA.COM
      312.784.0099

   Record last updated on 23-Nov-96.
   Record created on 23-Nov-96.
   Database last updated on 4-Nov-97 05:29:24 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   SUBA01.SUBA.COM		198.87.202.2
   BIRD.SUBA.COM		198.87.202.33






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 18:45:15 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:45:15 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called, etc. etc.
Message-ID: <199711050210.DAA18934@basement.replay.com>



Lizard wrote:
>At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>>You're a bright one, aren't you?  
>>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
>>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
>>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
>>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
>>think that was very generous of them, don't you?
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
>pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
convenient.

If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
bottom-feeders taxed into penury.







From bs at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 19:14:05 1997
From: bs at dev.null (Bruce Schneier)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:14:05 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711042146.QAA02613@alcove.wittsend.com>
Message-ID: <345FD534.3258@dev.null>



Michael H. Warfield wrote:
>         Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
> So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
> them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
> from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
> point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
> whatever they are telling us. 

Help!!!
They are holding me hostage at syncrypt.com and using my name
to promote their product.

Please! Believe me! This is not just another unclever trick by
that forging rat bastard from sk.sympatico.ca.

Bruce







From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Nov  4 19:14:16 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:14:16 +0800
Subject: INFO-RUSS: POLITICAL PRISONERS DAY (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711050255.UAA17111@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu Tue Nov  4 20:48:11 1997
Message-Id: <9711042026.AA14816 at smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Precedence: bulk
From: info-russ <info-russ at smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
To: info-russ at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Date: Tus, 4 Nov 1997 14:05:10 +0100
Subject: INFO-RUSS: POLITICAL PRISONERS DAY

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Reprinted from RIA-Novosti
which adopted it from
Rossiiskiye Vesti, October 30

OCTOBER 30: POLITICAL PRISONERS DAY

        On October 30 Russia marks the Day of Memory of the
     Victims of Political Persecution Campaigns. We must
     admit that we lost the fervour with which we denounced
     the political butchers in the early 1990s, and the
     sympathy we felt for the victims of the Bolshevik
     regime. We tend to repeat the phrase which was popular
     in Brezhnev's time: "Persecution campaigns were evil,
     but not everything was plain black or white then." Why
     do we do this? Who is responsible for this drawback of
     public conscience? Our analyst, Anatoly GUBANOV,
     discusses this problem with famous scientist and
     politician Alexander YAKOVLEV, Chairman of the
     Presidential Commission on the Rehabilitation of
     the Victims of Political Persecution Campaigns.

  Question: The attitude to persecution campaigns has
changed in society and in some other terms. For example, on
October 30 the staff of the State Duma decided to hold
celebrations, with a concert and expensive gifts, to be given
above all to those who were responsible for the storming of the
city hall and the Ostankino TV centre. What kind of day of the
victims of the Bolshevik regime is that?
  Answer: There is nothing new in this. I remember that in
Soviet times, when the rehabilitation of the victims of
political persecution campaigns was barely launched, acts of
crawling sabotage were staged in the Politburo.
  Question: We are approaching the 80th celebration of the
October revolution. What will happen on that day?
  Answer: Instead of commemorating victims and repenting
sins, many people will "celebrate the red-letter day." Why?
Because nobody has provided a clear-cut and unambiguous
assessment of the past yet. I have spoken about this problem
before. I understand that this is difficult to accept, but
there was no revolution, not to mention a great socialist one.
What happened then?
  The power was lying on the autumn sidewalk. Nobody
governed the country. The army was ruined. The shop shelves
were empty and the people held demonstrations and plundered
bread and wine shops. A group of Bolsheviks entered the Smolny
Palace. Antonov-Ovseyenko arrested the ministers of the
Provisional Government.
  There was no resistance, just as there was no salvo from
the Avrora cruiser. Some shots were fired, but only into the
ceiling of the Smolny Palace. Later the storming of the palace
was presented as something heroic, following the scenario used
for the storming of the Bastille, which was not stormed since
nobody resisted its occupation. At that time there were only
seven prisoners in the Bastille - several crooks, two madmen
and one pervert. They were guarded by a group of invalids.
  Question: Does your commission encounter any difficulties
in its work? Can you answer this question honestly?
  Answer: Honestly? We submitted to the President two draft
decrees on the children of the Gulag and activists of socialist
and other similar parties, exterminated by the Bolsheviks. They
have been shelved. Not long ago I met with Valentin Yumashev,
head of the Presidential Administration, and asked him about
the fate of these drafts. He showed certain interest in the
problem, but it turned out that nobody had reported to him on
it. I know that bureaucrats, taking cover behind the idea of
accord and reconciliation, are prepared to gladly forget about
any crimes of the past.
  Our bureaucrat is a very interesting person. He trims his
sails to the wind: when there is no demand for something, he
will do nothing. Besides, a bureaucrat has a natural liking for
dictatorship. As a result, we get a terrible thing:
dictatorship by bureaucrats.
  There are also problems with archives. The law is the law,
but practical matters are something different. For example, our
commission is still waiting for the Office of the Prosecutor
General to provide the verdict on the case of Beria. They use
different pretexts to bide their time. We will have to
translate from English some so-called secret documents, since
they have long been sold abroad.

   4Russia in Facts and Figures 5
  In the first few years after the Bolsheviks came to power,
they persecuted peasants who took part in anti-governmental
action, workers who went on strikes, Cossacks, members of
socialist parties and anarchist organisations, the clergy, and
the seamen who took part in the 1921 Kronstadt "revolt."
  The authorities "neutralised" 16,000 rebel peasants,
confiscated about 500 homesteads and burned down 250 peasant
houses when crushing the revolt of the Tambov peasants in June
1921. Similar "measures" were taken when the Bolsheviks put out
other revolts of peasants, which rocked the Don, Western
Siberia, the Volga Region, Karelia and other regions of the
country in 1918-22.
  in 1921 through 1953, the VChK, OGPU, NKVD and MVD
agencies persecuted 4,060,306 people for political reasons.
Their fate was sealed outside courts. As many as 799,455 were
sentenced to capital punishment (shooting). The tidal wave of
persecutions swept the country in 1937-38, when 1.3 million
were sentenced to hard labour under the notorious Article 58
("counterrevolutionary crimes"), and more than a half of them
(682,000) were shot. At least 40 million were sentenced to
different prison terms in 1923-53. As many as 2.6 million
languished in prisons in 1950, and another 2.3 million lived in
special settlements (data of the late 1940s).

  Persecution Campaigns in the Countryside
  Over 500,000 peasants were persecuted in the late 1920s
and early 1930s. In 1930-31, a total of 1.8 million members of
peasant families were herded into special camps guarded by
special garrisons, without the right to leave them. In all,
over 1 million peasant homesteads were recognised as belonging
to kulaks (well-off peasants) during the collectivisation
campaign, and nearly 5 million peasants were sent into exile.

  Persecution of the Clergy
  The year 1918 was marked by the execution of 3,000
clergymen. Another 500-odd were shot in 1928, and 2,500 in
1930. As many as 136,900 Orthodox clergymen were persecuted in
1937, 85,300 of whom were shot. In 1938-41, the church lost
another 38,900 men, 36,400 of whom were executed. The
persecution of the clergy continued well into the 1970s. By
1976, the number of dioceses in the country dropped to 7,038
(there were 48,000 in 1918). In all, about 200,000 clergymen
suffered at the hands of Bolsheviks since the 1917 revolution.

  Persecution of the Military
  The trial of Tukhachevsky, Yakir and other military
leaders in June 1937 marked the beginning of mass persecutions
in the army, which affected over 40,000 servicemen. In all, the
army was "cleansed" of 45% of commanders who were accused of
political disloyalty. Those who had been unfortunate enough to
be encircled or taken prisoner during the 1941-45 war, and
repatriated Soviet  citizens were severely persecuted during
the war and in the first few years after it. In all, 994,000
servicemen were persecuted during the war, 157,000 of whom were
shot.

  Ethnic Persecution Campaigns
  The forceful movement of whole ethnic groups began before
the 1941-45 war. Poles, Kurds, Koreans, Buryats and other
ethnic groups fell victim to them. Since the mid-1940s to 1961,
a total of 3.5 million members of ethnic groups were
persecuted. The Germans were forced to leave their homes in the
Volga Region, Moscow and Moscow Region and other areas at
gunpoint. The Ingush, Chechens, Kalmyks, Crimean Tartars and
other ethnic groups were deported. In all, 14 ethnic groups
were deported fully, and 48, partially.
  The slightest signs of anti-governmental sentiments were
mercilessly crushed after the war, for example the workers'
demonstrations in Novocherkassk in 1962, when the workers
protested against price rises and simultaneous cuts in their
wages.
  Dissidents were the main victims of persecution campaigns
in the 1960s-1980s. In 1967 through 1971, the KGB "revealed"
over 3,000 groups of "politically dangerous nature," with
13,500 members of these groups persecuted. Since the mid-1950s,
the KGB widely used psychiatrists to combat dissent. According
to the 1986 information, 5,329 dissidents were the inmates of
the Kazan, Leningrad, Orel, Sychevka, Chernyakhovsk and
Blagoveshchensk psychiatric clinics of the USSR Interior
Ministry. The number of "mental cases" in the Leningrad
hospital of the Interior Ministry went up from 324 to 1,181
in 1956-86.
========================================================






From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 19:21:30 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:21:30 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971104185935.27758B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <345FDF5E.658A@dev.null>



Rabid Wombat wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 ichudov at algebra.com wrote:
> > This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> > after baiting you so successfully.
> >
> > I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> > what she wrote, seriously.

> I don't care, as long as she keeps writing. I love it when she talks
> dirty. There aren't many web sites dedicated to abnormal marsupial
> lifestyles, so I have to get my fun where I can.  Since my parents
> have installed NetNanny on my TRS80, thre's not much left for me.
> 
> OTOH, it might just be Toto sending another forge, trying to convince Tim
> May that Toto is actually Anita Bryant.

I am *really* Rabid Wombat...spam me unmercifully!

TruthBat






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 19:25:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:25:14 +0800
Subject: Higher Education
Message-ID: <199711050259.DAA24595@basement.replay.com>



>From News of the Weird:

* Five third-graders were suspended from school in April in Eaton,
Colo., for drug use.  Not only were they caught smoking marijuana
during recess, but they had rolled the joints using pieces of paper
torn from their homework.







From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 19:25:33 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:25:33 +0800
Subject: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
In-Reply-To: <199711042348.XAA04981@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <345FDE65.62BE@dev.null>



> ======================================================================
> 1. Are you using pgp5.x?

  Yeah...you got a problem with that?

> If answer to 1 is NO skip to question 4

  And if I _don't_?
 
>   2. have you placed your pgp5.x key on the public keyservers?

  Yeah. They sent it back and told me to fuck off.

>   3. Were you using an earlier version of pgp before getting pgp5.x

  6.0. I'm from the future.

>   If answer to 3 is NO skip to 6

  Hey, pal. Quit ordering me around!
 
> 4. Is your pgp2.x (or 4.x) key on a public key server

  Yes,  but it's under _your_ name.

> 5. What software did you use to put your pgp2.x (or 4.x) key on the
>    keyserver?  Was it pgp5.x, or was it some other software (eg web
>    browser, emailed key submission etc)?

  I put it on using their root account. They need better security

> 6. How many people do you communicate with using PGP?

  None, really. I usually just babble incoherently.

> 7. Of those how many are using pgp2.x (or pgp4.x)

  None. Do you think that is maybe why no one ever replies?

> 8. and how many are using pgp5.x

  How the fuck would I know if they never write (Adam) back?

> 9. how many of the pgp5.x users had never used PGP before pgp5.x
>    became available

  Like, I'm _sleeping_ with everyone I write to? How long till I
get to the 'smart' questions?

> 10. How many of the people who use pgp2.x (answer to 7) are
>     cypherpunks?

  Only the guy in the next cell.

> 11. How many of the people who use pgp5.x (answer to 8) are
>     cypherpunks?

  Only the ones promoting it in anonymous posts to the list.

> ======================================================================
 
> Thanks for your time. 

  That's more apprecitation than the Warden ever expressed.

CellMateMonger







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 19:26:06 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:26:06 +0800
Subject: Digital Signatures Come of Age
Message-ID: <199711050301.EAA24793@basement.replay.com>



* San Francisco "conceptual artist" Guy Overfelt, 29, was
prominently, if not favorably, reviewed for two recent projects:  For
a show at the Refusalon gallery in San Francisco, he called 2,000
toll-free numbers to request that information be sent to the gallery. 
(That's it.)  For a show at New York City's White Columns Gallery
in the winter, he exhibited two 1,000-name mailing lists of art
collectors, one for the East Coast and one for the West Coast. 
(Overfelt offered for sale a "signed" edition of the mailing lists, on
PC and Mac diskettes, for $20 each.)







From tj at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 19:26:23 1997
From: tj at dev.null (Thomas Jefferson)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:26:23 +0800
Subject: FUD
Message-ID: <345FD249.8D0@dev.null>



"Fear can only prevail when victims are ignorant of the facts." 
- Thomas Jefferson







From tp at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 19:34:39 1997
From: tp at dev.null (The Pervert)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:34:39 +0800
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0853170bbd3@[204.254.22.175]>
Message-ID: <345FD3A3.2677@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> "In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
> explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
> period."

Gee, I wonder who put the 'other' 410 on the InterNet.

The Pervert
"I thought I was the *only* one doing that shit."







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 19:34:51 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:34:51 +0800
Subject: Forcing someone to mow your lawn, in the commission of a crime...
Message-ID: <199711050301.EAA24892@basement.replay.com>



* In July, police in Lexington, Ky., were searching for Delbert
Buttrey, 47, who they believe is the man who kidnapped a transient
couple from Indiana, took them to an isolated spot, and forced
them to perform oral sex on him while Buttrey's girlfriend snapped
photographs.  After that, according to police, Buttrey took the
couple home with him and forced the man to mow his lawn.







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 20:09:34 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:09:34 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks Physical Meetings...The Rest of the Story
Message-ID: <199711050303.EAA25015@basement.replay.com>



>From News of the CypherPunks:

* In March, a 36-year-old man choked to death on a 6-inch tropical
fish he had popped into his mouth while showing off for friends in
Bayou Vista, La.  And in April, a 12-year-old boy was electrocuted
in East Palo Alto, Calif., after he climbed a high-voltage
transmission tower in the rain, dared his three companions to join
him, and then accidentally touched a wire.  And in July, a 22-year-
old man, described by his grandmother as "smart in school," died in
a bungee-cord accident on a railroad trestle in Fairfax County, Va. 
(Said a police spokesman:  "The length of the cord that he had
assembled was greater than the distance between the trestle and the
ground.")







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov  4 20:10:18 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:10:18 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <345FC025.852@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b085831fd8a7@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:01 PM -0700 11/4/97, Lizard wrote:
>At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>>You're a bright one, aren't you?
>>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time
>>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for
>>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.
>>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I
>>think that was very generous of them, don't you?
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
>pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
forms.

(I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
of truth.)

Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
conform...but such is life in many ways.

The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
plays.

Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov  4 20:10:51 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:10:51 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050210.DAA18934@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b085858a6a1a@[207.167.93.63]>



At 7:10 PM -0700 11/4/97, Anonymous wrote:

>More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
>therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
>that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
>convenient.
>
>If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
>for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
>bottom-feeders taxed into penury.

Nonsense. And a dangerous course.

One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
particularly strong opinion on either option.

But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
opinions expressed by a church!

One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30 years.
Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism "into
penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist Entity.

Think about it.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From js at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 20:14:31 1997
From: js at dev.null (Jesus Christ)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:14:31 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345FE31E.6C30@dev.null>



hayden at phoenix.net wrote:

> I found the mockery of Jesus offensive.

  Me too!

~J H.Fucking. C~
"So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them,
<red> 'A prophet is not without honour except in his own
       country and on his own mailing list.' <red> "







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 20:19:04 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:19:04 +0800
Subject: If it wasn't for the Internet, you might never know this... (WAS: Your Tax Dollars At Work...)
Message-ID: <199711050303.EAA24990@basement.replay.com>



>From News of the Weird:

* The February Scientific American reported on how conservation
biologist Joel Berger (University of Nevada at Reno) field-studies
moose, which are notoriously unfriendly to humans.  Berger needed
to be able to hurl fresh bear and wolf dung accurately enough to
assure that a moose immediately smelled it, to see if it made the
moose fearful or aggressive.  To be able to get that close to a
moose, he engaged a designer who worked on the movie "Star
Wars" to make a moose suit, which worked so well that Berger said
he spent much of his time in the suit worrying about being
mounted.







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 20:43:13 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:43:13 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
Message-ID: <199711050422.FAA04318@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> At 7:10 PM -0700 11/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
> >therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
> >that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
> >convenient.
> >
> >If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
> >for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
> >bottom-feeders taxed into penury.

> Nonsense. And a dangerous course.
> 
> One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
> particularly strong opinion on either option.
> 
> But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
> opinions expressed by a church!

  I feel that Tim is correct, in terms of "opinions," but the Christian
political agenda goes beyond 'opinions' and into the realm of political
activism which is regulated by law.
  It is a fact that the Moral Majority/Christian Right/Felons For Jesus,
etc., make no bones about using their tax-deductible resources to mount
political campaigns that illegally skirt the rules pertaining to the
direct support of political parties and candidates.

  If the Commie Chincs brunching at the Whithouse and sleeping in the
Lincoln bedroom tried to excuse their illegally made payoffs to the
current administration by getting a glazed look in their eye and
speaking about answering to 'a higher power', the press and the
citizens would lynch them.
  Certainly, the Christian political movement is no 'dirtier' or more
criminal than the rest of the Fools On the (Capitol) Hill, but they are
all the more hypocritical for claiming the higher moral ground in their
illegal activities.

Criminals is criminals...

JHFCMonger






From mhw at wittsend.com  Tue Nov  4 21:00:14 1997
From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:00:14 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <345FD534.3258@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711050436.XAA05517@alcove.wittsend.com>



Bruce Schneier enscribed thusly:
> Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> >         Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
> > So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
> > them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
> > from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
> > point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
> > whatever they are telling us. 

> Help!!!
> They are holding me hostage at syncrypt.com and using my name
> to promote their product.

	:-) :-) :-)

	Ok ok...  I was just making the point that they were claiming one
thing and we hadn't heard you chime in yet.  I yield.  :-)

> Please! Believe me! This is not just another unclever trick by
> that forging rat bastard from sk.sympatico.ca.

	Snicker...  I had "kinda" assumed (remember the spelling) that if
someone had been making baseless claims about your participation that you
would have been off da pad at warp one.  Just checking to make sure and
keep everyone honest (when was the LAST time I dropped out of lurk mode
on this list???).

> Bruce

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw at WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 21:00:22 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:00:22 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
Message-ID: <199711050439.FAA06121@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
> school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
> prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
> anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
> conform...but such is life in many ways.

  And then the rest of the children were made to stand at attention
while
the Jews, the Buddhists, the Muslims, et al, performed their own
religious
rituals, right?
 
> The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
> Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
> activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
> in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
> plays.

  Big news, Tim...non-violent discrimination against a particular 
religious faction is not quite the same as freedom from religious 
persecution.
  i.e. - Not kicking Seth's Christkilling little butt is not the 
equivalent of letting him engage in his religious activities in 
school just as the Christian kids do.

  Still looking for your shoes? Check under the bed...

~JC~






From emc at wire.insync.net  Tue Nov  4 21:05:42 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:05:42 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b085858a6a1a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711050458.WAA10404@wire.insync.net>



Tim May Writes:

> Nonsense. And a dangerous course.

> One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
> particularly strong opinion on either option. 

> But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on
> the opinions expressed by a church!

> One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
> anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30
> years.  Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism
> "into penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist
> Entity. 

> Think about it. 

I have no objection to churches holding opinions.  However, when they
become a tax-exempt mechanism for the illegal injection of money into
political campaigns, taxing is the minimally appropriate response.

There is a big difference between saying "Our religion disapproves of
abortion", and saying "Vote for candidate Y and attend the big rally we
are paying for out of last week's poorbox donations." 

The Christian right wing has made a mockery of the separation of church
and state in its conspicuous and direct support of particular political
candidates.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 21:14:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:14:24 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b085858a6a1a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711050452.FAA07439@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:


>
>Nonsense. And a dangerous course.
>
>One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
>particularly strong opinion on either option.
>
>But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
>opinions expressed by a church!
>
>One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
>anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30 years.
>Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism "into
>penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist Entity.
>
>Think about it.
>
>--Tim May

You should only tax churches who hand out guns instead of bizarre flat
bread and intone "this is my body, use it for target practice".
You should also tax any church where the priests routinely recruit young
boys and tell them anal sex with a priest will get them into heaven.
Also tax any church where the sermon is immediately followed by an orgy.







From mhw at wittsend.com  Tue Nov  4 21:21:45 1997
From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:21:45 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <345FD534.3258@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711050500.AAA05681@alcove.wittsend.com>



Uhhh....

	Can anyone tell for sure what's up with Bruce...

	After getting this message and responding to it, I dropped a note
over to Bruce's centerpane address...

Bruce Schneier enscribed thusly:
> Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> >         Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
> > So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
> > them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
> > from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
> > point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
> > whatever they are telling us. 

> Help!!!
> They are holding me hostage at syncrypt.com and using my name
> to promote their product.

> Please! Believe me! This is not just another unclever trick by
> that forging rat bastard from sk.sympatico.ca.

> Bruce

	When I forwarded my message to Bruce's address at centerpane
"just to be sure" here is what I got back...

> From schneier at mixer.visi.com  Tue Nov  4 23:46:24 1997
> Return-Path: <schneier at mixer.visi.com>
> Received: from mixer.visi.com (schneier at mixer.visi.com [204.73.178.1])
> 	by alcove.wittsend.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05599
> 	for <mhw at alcove.wittsend.com>; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:46:05 -0500
> Received: (from schneier at localhost) by mixer.visi.com (8.8.6/8.7.5) id WAA05081 for mhw at alcove.wittsend.com; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:45:43 -0600 (CST)
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:45:43 -0600 (CST)
> Posted-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:45:43 -0600 (CST)
> Message-Id: <199711050445.WAA05081 at mixer.visi.com>
> From: schneier at visi.com (via the vacation program)
> Subject: Schneier is missing; last seen headed for Beijing
> Status: RO
> 
> I will be away from my email until Saturday, 11/15. I won't be taking
> a computer with me, so I won't have any email access until I return.
> If you really need to get in touch with me, try leaving a voice 
> message at 612 823 1098.  And be patiend.
> 
> Information on Counterpane Systems consulting business, the 
> corrected 5th printing of Applied Cryptography 2nd Edition,
> my new book (The Electronic Privacy Papers), my S/MIME exploit,
> the PasswordSafe program, and a lot of other things can be found
> on my webiste:
> 
> 	http://www.counterpane.com/
> 
> Thanks,
> Bruce

	Ok...  If he didn't take a computer with him then he just gave
new meaning to sending a message from @dev.null...  Yeah right.  Got about
a week and a half till he's back, according to this...

	Is it Bruce or is it Memorex...  On the Internet...  Who can tell?

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw at WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 21:28:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:28:46 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b085831fd8a7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711050515.GAA10042@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
>There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
>forms.
>
>(I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
>of truth.)
>
>Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
>school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
>prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
>anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
>conform...but such is life in many ways.
>
>The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
>Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
>activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
>in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
>plays.
>
>Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
>withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
>kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

Huh? Since when has school prayer had anything to do with religion?
Its about indoctrination. If you force someone to say something day
after day, or even hear it day afterday, after a while it stops
representing a idea, and starts representing a truth. The pledge of
allegiance is a prime example. 

Ask a school age kid "does america have liberty and justice for all?"
and they will quote back without thinking the pledge of allegiance 

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god
indivisible with liberty and justice for all"

Long after they stop forcing you to say it you still remember it. You 
still believe that america is "a nation under god" and has "liberty and
justice for all" whether or not there is any evidence at all to support 
it. That is the beauty of it, there need be no evidence of liberty at 
all just like there is no evidence that terrorists and kiddie porn
collectors are running rampant on the internet. Just like there is no
evidence that the economy is worse than it has ever been. Just like 
there is no evidence that 2/3s of the crime in america is committed by
teenagers.Just like there is no evidence that you have a 50% chance of
being killed when you leave your house. People hear these "facts" day 
after day on tv but are never offered any proof but im sure if you ask most
people "how is the economy" they will say "worse than it has ever been".

Say something 3 times and it becomes true. 

forget my last post about only taxing some churches, tax them all.


--bucky






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov  4 21:31:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:31:55 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050422.FAA04318@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b085a39979d4@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:22 PM -0700 11/4/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  I feel that Tim is correct, in terms of "opinions," but the Christian
>political agenda goes beyond 'opinions' and into the realm of political
>activism which is regulated by law.

It shouldn't be. "Political activism" is speech. And "Congress shall make
no law...."

The First doesn't say that Congress gets to restrict some kinds of
"political activism" (assuming it is speech, writing, etc., and not
invading property, extortion, etc.).

This is why "campaign spending limits" are thought by many constitutional
scholars and all libertarians to be unconstitutional. If Bill Gates wants
to spend his money talking about how great gun control is, no one can stop
him.

(The current "campaign financing laws" are already afoul of the First. They
may eventually be challenged and, I hope, struck down.)

Needless to say, telling churches what they can say and cannot say is a
slam dunk violation of the First.



>  It is a fact that the Moral Majority/Christian Right/Felons For Jesus,
>etc., make no bones about using their tax-deductible resources to mount
>political campaigns that illegally skirt the rules pertaining to the
>direct support of political parties and candidates.

So? Then change the tax laws for _all_ religions, churches, creeds, and cults.

As for the Christian Right lobbying, what of the Christian *Left* lobbying
for the Sanctuary Movement, the anti-Sandinista side, against the Viet Nam
war, etc.? Those Berrigan brothers and their antiwar rhetoric...surely that
was enough to cause the Catholic Church to be "taxed into penury"? Or the
liberal pinko commie jew Quakers...too bad Nixon wasn't able to shut those
pinko fags down (er, I guess Nixon _was_ a Quaker...never mind).

I think you should see where this is all going. Shut down the Buddhists for
protesting the Viet Nam War. Shut down the Baptists for arguing against
abortion. Where would it end?

Fortunately, we have the First.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov  4 21:39:39 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:39:39 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b085858a6a1a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b085a65a1f91@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:58 PM -0700 11/4/97, Eric Cordian wrote:

>I have no objection to churches holding opinions.  However, when they
>become a tax-exempt mechanism for the illegal injection of money into
>political campaigns, taxing is the minimally appropriate response.

Taxation or not taxing is not a favor I entrust to government. This is the
way countries with state religions favor the state religion over other
religions.

Fortunately, we do things differently in this country.


>There is a big difference between saying "Our religion disapproves of
>abortion", and saying "Vote for candidate Y and attend the big rally we
>are paying for out of last week's poorbox donations."

How a church spends its money is not for government to approve of or
disapprove of.


>The Christian right wing has made a mockery of the separation of church
>and state in its conspicuous and direct support of particular political
>candidates.

The "separation of church and state" refers to what power the state may
have over the practice of religion, the establishment of a state religion,
etc.. It has nothing whatsoever to do with stopping the Amish, say, from
voting in blocs for various causes.

See my other post on this topic. The Christian *LEFT* has been active for
several decades in opposing U.S. involvement in wars, in aiding and
abetting draft dodgers, in supporting Marxist regimes in Latin America, in
establishing the Sanctuary Movement, in sabotaging ICBM production
facilities, and in urging churchgoers to vote the agenda being pushed.

So?

Tax all churches or tax no churches, but don't give government the power to
decide if a religion is "worthy" of special tax treatment.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 22:06:44 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:06:44 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
Message-ID: <199711050535.GAA12187@basement.replay.com>



Anonymous wrote:

>Also tax any church where the sermon is immediately followed by an orgy.

Well, so much for the Church of the SubGenius. Of course, they already
weren't tax-exempt, so it's kind of a moot point. The orgies are worth
it. though.

Can we at least tax the Scientologists, too? All that Reactive Mind shit
makes me puke.

JR"B"D







From frantz at netcom.com  Tue Nov  4 22:30:08 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:30:08 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050422.FAA04318@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03110714b085c0ba531b@[207.94.249.121]>



At 8:26 PM -0800 11/4/97, Tim May wrote:
>This is why "campaign spending limits" are thought by many constitutional
>scholars and all libertarians to be unconstitutional. If Bill Gates wants
>to spend his money talking about how great gun control is, no one can stop
>him.

You might be able to define campaign spending limits in terms of
qualifications for the job.  (I think it would take a constitutional
amendment for federal office holders).  Then you might see the amusing
sight of, e.g. the anti-Clinton people spending heavily on pro-Clinton TV
spots to force Clinton to be disqualified from the job.

Another way which should appeal to the property owner's rights crowd would
be to say that since the 1034 Communications Act says that the airways
belong to the people (i.e. the government), they may not be used for
political advertising more than 6 weeks before an election.  The spread of
private systems such as cable will frustrate this direction.

Please note, I don't advocate either of these "solutions".  I am just
amused to think about them.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 22:31:03 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:31:03 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views?
Message-ID: <199711050615.HAA16549@basement.replay.com>



J.F. Christ wrote:

>   I feel that Tim is correct, in terms of "opinions," but the Christian
> political agenda goes beyond 'opinions' and into the realm of political
> activism which is regulated by law.
>   It is a fact that the Moral Majority/Christian Right/Felons For Jesus,
> etc., make no bones about using their tax-deductible resources to mount
> political campaigns that illegally skirt the rules pertaining to the
> direct support of political parties and candidates.

So, perhaps the modern-western idea of separation of Church and State
is based on an unreasonable optimism that such a thing is possible.
Perhaps it's actually more honest to admit that the state will always
reflect the religious framework of the rulers, as (I believe) Muslim
countries tend to do.

Of course, there's no reason to believe that honesty actually
determines social structures, and so one might say that it's just more
useful to _claim_ that church and state are separated.

::Boots

                               Hug an abortionist today!







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 00:15:54 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:15:54 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050535.GAA12187@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711050759.IAA26701@basement.replay.com>



some person wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
>
>>Also tax any church where the sermon is immediately followed by an orgy.
>
>Well, so much for the Church of the SubGenius. Of course, they already
>weren't tax-exempt, so it's kind of a moot point. The orgies are worth
>it. though.
>
>Can we at least tax the Scientologists, too? All that Reactive Mind shit
>makes me puke.
>
>JR"B"D
>
>

You know whats wierd? there are these people that think a virgin gave birth
to a guy, and this guy was the son of god! And get this, he was killed, and
came back to life! They based an entire religion on this!

Its amazing what people will believe. 

--bucky






From Michael.Johnson at mejl.com  Wed Nov  5 00:35:20 1997
From: Michael.Johnson at mejl.com (Mike)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:35:20 +0800
Subject: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105092037.0098a7d0@localhost>



kraiwut at samart.co.th wrote:
>What can I do to make the computer fucking impenetrable at start up? --- to
>the point that they have to ask me for the password or  nothing moves. 

You could try Norton Your Eyes Only. The trial version with domestic
security is floating around as YEOtrial.zip.


Mike.






From holovacsOMIT at idt.net  Wed Nov  5 02:39:40 1997
From: holovacsOMIT at idt.net (aileen holovacs)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:39:40 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <34607414.73E4@idt.net>



Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> <snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>
> 
> Monger:
> 
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.
> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.
> 
>
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.	I have to assume you were not born Jewish, nor converted to 
Judaism. I have yet to meet a Jew w/ such a fundamentalist Christian view 
of the world. If you were indeed born Jewish, I will apologize ahead of 
time and say only that, your education in yiddishkeit(Jewish life) and 
halakhah(Jewish law) must either have been nonexistant, or Lubavich. I 
suspect you consider yourself jewish because you are a jew for jesus. A 
Christian who has decided to adopt jewish tradition and therefore calls 
themself jewish. I bring these points to your attention:

> "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
>ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT." Jews have never been advocates of censorship in any form. A Jews were not 
allowed to act, speak, or pray in WWII Germany, they were sent to death 
instead. Jews are not allowed to worship or read the holy books in 
communist countries. The greatest Jewish leaders through out history, 
read and argued dissenting viewpoints, they did not censor them.Even 
today, Jews take responsibility for their own children, they do not ask 
others to do it for them. The more orthodox place their children in 
private schools at their own expense, and teach their children to stay 
away from non-jews, they don't expect everyone else to bend to their 
views. 

I strongly doubt any Jew would choose use a quote from hitler. 

> Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
>are held up as objects of scorn Why do you use these terms? Why not Rabbis, teachers, and even the Ten 
Commandments? And the term Christ himself????As far as Jews are 
concerned, Jesus was nothing more than a minor prophet. It is upsetting 
that other religion's icons are held in scorn, but this is because we 
respect other people's belief.

>Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
>governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day. 	Yes homosexuality is forbbidden, however, abortion and 
contraception is NOT! Even for the very orthodox, abortion is ALWAYS 
allowed to save a woman's life and in ANY case rape or incest. Among 
non-orthodox Jews, it is allowed if necessary for the sake of the family, 
or for the mental health of the woman. Even among the most orthodox, 
contraception is allowed after the birth of at least 1 male and 1 female 
child, and the sexual act is considered a mandatory act of mutual 
pelasure!
	I think you would find most Jews believe that contempt for 
parents, and lack of respect for adults is a direct result of upbringing, 
not the media or the internet.Jews teach respect by example, including 
respecting their own children. That, plus a healthy dose of jewish guilt. 
Jewish parents hold their children in such high regard, that there is no 
worse feeling than dissapointing your parents.
	While I don't think Jews as a whole hold the government in 
contepmt, they are among the first to say 'question authority'.Look at 
what has happened to us when we don't!(and sometimes even when we do)

>particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
>"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
>pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
>Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
>submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
>showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.	Many Jews are great patrons of the arts. Art is a cultural 
legacy. If it's trash, don't by it or look at it; don't sponsor a museum 
that exhibits that trash, but censor? Never! Even pornography is 
allowable, it is up to the parents to educate the children on these 
matters.

> But they say not
>a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
>in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.	It's called the Tanakh(Old Testament) not the bible. Jews have 
always insisted that their children get a Jewish education as well as an 
ecumenical one. from kindergarten on, Jewish children usually spend hours 
each week in hebrew school learning jewish history, law and culture. You 
cannot be b'nai Mitzvoh unles you go through all this. Even someone who 
converts to Judaism, must study until the Rabbi feels the have learned 
enough, before they can b'nai Mitzvah.

>Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
>person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
>themselves.	Jews take responsibility not just for themselves but for the 
welfare of society, without any other agenda. The Mitzvah(good deed) is 
one of the top 5 most importanat things about being a jew. It means 
giving simply for the sake of others. Children are shown, very early, how 
good it feels to do a mitzvah, and all jews are encouraged to do a 
mitzvah a day. They don't blame  problems on society(as you seem to), nor 
do they expect the government to fix the problem(as you seem to). The 
best way to solve these problems is to offer help freely to resolve the 
problem, Not find a way to place blame(as you seem to). Is pornography 
really the problem, or is it that our youth are out of control and lack 
leadership and role models? Banning dirty words will not keep children 
from learning them. Teaching children how people use them and why they 
are innapropriate will. Teaching "bible" at school will not instill 
morality, teaching by example will. 
 
>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.	We have learned enough about you, through your messages here and 
you web site, to draw rather strong conclusions.

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that. 	I intensely dislike your views, I don't hate anyone. I feel sorry 
for you, that your lack of education has left you vulnerable to the 
pseudo-science that you quote. It is obvious that you have never had a 
course in statistics, politics and government, sociology, science, ot 
research methods, to name a few. Jewish culture AND religion take great 
pride in holding education as one of the primary foundations of being a 
Jew!

Jew prize knowledge and education. Ideas are things to be nurtured and 
grown, books are things to be cherished and absorbed.The idea of 
censorship is an anathema to the entire culture.

If you were Jewish you would know at least some of this. It makes you and 
your arguments even less credible when you portray yourself as something 
you're not. Let's at least have a little honesty here even if we 
completely disagree on the censorship issue. Khlallah: gey en dregk


Men roybt undz dos lebn un recht             
                                          
Derfar vayl mir emes farlangen

Frayhayt, far bafrayt

They steal our lives and our rights,
because of our true desire,
freedom, freedom for everyone    

(from"tortured to death in captivity")
G.A.Machtet, poet
dedicated to student revolutionaries
-- 
Channah beyt Yehudit 
holovacs at idt.net






From Michael.Johnson at mejl.com  Wed Nov  5 03:08:35 1997
From: Michael.Johnson at mejl.com (Mike)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:08:35 +0800
Subject: SMTP Encryption Extension
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971021082737.00928b20@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105115851.0096fe90@localhost>



Eric Murray wrote:
>There's a port defined for SMTP-over-SSL:
>ssmtp           465/tcp    ssmtp
>(from the IANA assigned port numbers document of feb '97)

No, there isn't. The port 465 has been revoked. See
<http://www.imc.org/draft-hoffman-smtp-ssl> for the current SMTP encryption
draft. It seems that port 25 will be reused with encryption.

Now, everybody please start implementing this draft and we'll soon have
secure mail. I'm already working on a DOS 8086 version for the HP 200LX.



Mike.






From adam at homeport.org  Wed Nov  5 03:16:15 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:16:15 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711050204.SAA02515@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199711051058.FAA02480@homeport.org>



Adam Back wrote:
| Monty Cantsin writes:

| > We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit that
| > it will be completely unencumbered.
| 
| Sounds maybe worth doing.
| 

Not maybe at all. The IETF will require a second, interoperable
implementation for standardization of OpenPGP.  Its sad that the
interoperable SSH was written for Pilots, since it uses some libraries
there that are not portable.

| > Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
| > to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
| > conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
| > cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
| > completely economical.
| 
| This is more secure I agree.  The real kicker with this problem is
| people who turn on encrypt to self -- I don't want messages with
| encrypt to self (an extra door into the message) on them in my
| mailbox, nor coming over the wire headed to me.

Pretty Good, not Perfectly Strong.

Never underestimate the value of pretty good security.  The bad guys
use scanners that need to work in real time; even 40 bit crypto with a
30 second delay creates huge headaches.  I see a PGP encrypted
message, even with encrypt to self on as pretty good.  Sure, its not
sealed with a two color wax seal in a tyvek envelope, but its pretty
good.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From berezina at qed.net  Wed Nov  5 03:23:05 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:23:05 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
Message-ID: <01bce9da$dad58560$357d8dcc@Berezina>



From: Lizard <lizard at mrlizard.com>:
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
>pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

Her Muse is Fear. She has that in common with her Christian allies.

Paul

Is this the progression of our lives
                                  or merely a comment on them?






From mark at unicorn.com  Wed Nov  5 04:01:02 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (mark at unicorn.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:01:02 +0800
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
Message-ID: <878730951.18011.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>



Tim May quoted from macweek:
>"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
>allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
>encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
>isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
>regulations.""

However, this doesn't seem to work, unless I'm mistaken about CMR
enforcement and the SEC regulations. CMR will only allow the snoops 
to read incoming email, not outgoing, and hence if Joe Blow at 
Foo-Bah.com wants to send me some handy insider trading tips CMR will 
not stop them. So this seems to be another justification for CMR 
which just doesn't make sense.

    Mark






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Wed Nov  5 04:41:05 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:41:05 +0800
Subject: Need info! / Re: Export a random number, go to jail
In-Reply-To: <199711040106.CAA04679@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711051229.HAA09540@upaya.multiverse.com>



Anonymous writes that I wrote:

: > >If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
: > >pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
: > >that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
: > >contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
: > >authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
: > >all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
: > >EAR.
: > 
: > "Export a random number, go to jail."

And then asked:

: 
: Is it legal to export '37'?
: How about '148'?
: '276'?
: '3,289,534'?
: '6.33458'?

Perhaps I was not clear enough.  The U.S. government's classifications
that I wrote about had to do with one-time pad programs, not the pads
themselves.  

I know of nothing official that says that the pads themselves are
exportable, but there is nothing in the regulations that suggests they
are not.  Random number and encrypted messages are not regulated by
the U.S. export regulations; only ``encryption software'' is
regulated.  So far as I know the government has never claimed that
one-time pads are, or are not, subject to the export regulations.

If anyone knows of a governmental classification relating to the
export status of one-time pads themselves, I would be very grateful
for a reference.

Thanks,
Peter
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From mark at unicorn.com  Wed Nov  5 05:08:56 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (mark at unicorn.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:08:56 +0800
Subject: Teaching Kids To Love Big Brother
Message-ID: <878734718.23058.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>



>From the Infowar Web site:

BRISBANE, Nov 2 AAP - Special computer software will stop Queensland 
school children accessing pornography on the Internet as schools are 
connected to the worldwide web over the next year, Education Minister 
Bob Quinn said today. 

[deletia]

"Students will not be permitted to deviate down the many unsavoury side 
roads off the information superhighway," Mr Quinn said in a statement. 

"We don't want children exposed to pornography. We don't want them learning 
how to make bombs. We don't want them gambling in cyberspace and we don't 
want them wasting their valuable time on silly games and other pointless pursuits." 

[deletia]

Attempts to access prohibited sites on school Internet terminals would 
trigger an automatic alarm monitored by Education Queensland's network administrators. 

Mr Quinn said e-mail would also be scrutinised and messages with 
prohibited words or phrases automatically directed to administrators. 

[deletia]

The monitoring system would also monitor traffic patterns used by 
Queensland's 450,000 students and 30,000 teachers, he said. 

>>> END

Shame about the export restrictions, or this would be a great market
for PGP's new snoopware.

    Mark






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Nov  5 05:48:19 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:48:19 +0800
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
In-Reply-To: <878730951.18011.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <199711051331.NAA01409@server.test.net>




Mark Grant <mark at unicorn.com> writes:
> Tim May quoted from macweek:
> >"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
> >allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
> >encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
> >isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
> >regulations.""
> 
> However, this doesn't seem to work, unless I'm mistaken about CMR
> enforcement and the SEC regulations. CMR will only allow the snoops 
> to read incoming email, not outgoing, and hence if Joe Blow at 
> Foo-Bah.com wants to send me some handy insider trading tips CMR will 
> not stop them. So this seems to be another justification for CMR 
> which just doesn't make sense.

I think that there is also a facility in the pgp5.5 for business
client to add yet another recipient: the sending companies snoop key.

I also got the impression that the policy enforcer could be set up to
bounce mail internally which did not have this extra recipient.

(Note, not having pgp5.5 for business to play with I am going on what
others have said.)

So now you've got mail headed out encrypted to 3 long term keys... if
the sender uses encrypt to self that will be 4 long term keys!  Then
the spooks in the sending country will want to be another recipient,
and spooks in the receiving country will also, bringing us to a total
of 6 long term keys.  Wew talk about security risks!

I thought it would be a good feature to put into the SMTP agent to
strip encrypt to self and recipients intended for internal snooping --
that would bring the recipients back down to 2 (or 4 with spooks).

Better still would be one recipient (as happens with adhoc local
escrow), and make that key a short term key which is burned after
expiry also.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us  Wed Nov  5 08:12:44 1997
From: bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us (Brandon Crosby)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:12:44 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711051559.JAA29516@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>



> 
> > Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> > convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> > exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
> let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
> porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
> facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).
> 
Take a young child to the mall. He or she sits on santa's lap.

Does the brain change at this point? The simple fact that the brain has
been altered in some way only proves that the child is concious.

-Brandon Crosby






From 94WD55P1211 at aol.com  Thu Nov  6 00:22:42 1997
From: 94WD55P1211 at aol.com (94WD55P1211 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:22:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: You Can Make $100 From Every FREE Phone Call !!!
Message-ID: <7492304188567@our.com>


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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov  5 09:05:53 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:05:53 +0800
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
In-Reply-To: <878730951.18011.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b08646cbca3f@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:31 AM -0700 11/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Mark Grant <mark at unicorn.com> writes:
>> Tim May quoted from macweek:
>> >"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
>> >allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
>> >encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
>> >isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
>> >regulations.""
>>
>> However, this doesn't seem to work, unless I'm mistaken about CMR
>> enforcement and the SEC regulations. CMR will only allow the snoops
>> to read incoming email, not outgoing, and hence if Joe Blow at
>> Foo-Bah.com wants to send me some handy insider trading tips CMR will
>> not stop them. So this seems to be another justification for CMR
>> which just doesn't make sense.
>

CMR and the Policy Management Agent can (and presumably will) be set to
scrutizine _all_  mail for "policy violations," outgoing as well as
incoming mail.  The PGP page has some descriptions of their products.


>I think that there is also a facility in the pgp5.5 for business
>client to add yet another recipient: the sending companies snoop key.
>
>I also got the impression that the policy enforcer could be set up to
>bounce mail internally which did not have this extra recipient.


Indeed, the Policy Management Agent enforces certain criteria, including
CMR, across _internal_ as well as external networks. "PGP� Policy
Management Agent for SMTP helps to protect an organization's vital
information by enforcing corporate security policies for email
communications across internal and external networks." (fromwww.pgp.com).

In more detail:

:"PGP Policy Management Agent works with standard SMTP mail servers,
intercepting and checking email to ensure that it conforms with desired
security
policies. A typical policy established for encryption software, for
example, is that
encrypted email must also be encrypted to a corporate message recovery key
to enable data recovery. Email that adheres to the policy is automatically
routed to the
 intended recipient. Email that fails to adhere to any of the established
policies is
 rejected by the server and sent back to the client with a configurable
SMTP error
 message, depending upon the policy failure. "

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov  5 09:11:25 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:11:25 +0800
Subject: ANNOUNCE: New Remailer - palnu@juno.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971105104055.234I-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <3460A427.5C0C@dev.null>



Andy Dustman wrote:
> 
> I've been pinging palnu for a day now, no response yet.

  Try looking at some dirty pictures while you do it...

IPingMyOwnPalnuTooMonger







From schear at lvdi.net  Wed Nov  5 09:14:41 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:14:41 +0800
Subject: Smartcards - Drivers Licenses in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103001906.0356e594@rboc.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b08651698ec0@[10.0.2.15]>



>There are plenty of things in the world of information privacy to get
>hysterical about; but please lets not proclaim them realities before
>they actually are...
>
>Having said that... if you live in the Garden State, get on the phone
>to your state legislators and express your concerns on this troubling
>idea and how it may be used before is DOES become something to scream
>about....

Has anyone done tests to see what effect putting a smartcard in a microwave
oven has ;-)

--Steve







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov  5 09:19:31 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:19:31 +0800
Subject: Need info! / Re: Export a random number, go to jail
In-Reply-To: <199711040106.CAA04679@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b08649a67633@[207.167.93.63]>



At 5:29 AM -0700 11/5/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>Anonymous writes that I wrote:

>: >
>: > "Export a random number, go to jail."

Actually, that was _my_ line, a riff on the old Cyphepunks joke, "Use a
random number, go to jail."

>And then asked:
>
>:
>: Is it legal to export '37'?
>: How about '148'?
>: '276'?
>: '3,289,534'?
>: '6.33458'?
>
>Perhaps I was not clear enough.  The U.S. government's classifications
>that I wrote about had to do with one-time pad programs, not the pads
>themselves.

As Shannon showed, the program to execute a one-time pad is ridiculously
simple: an XOR of two files or vectors. Not only can any student in any
country write such a program, it's built in to many systems.

(In a whimsical twist to Peter's own situation, he could describe in his
class what an XOR is and how it applies to one time pads, and he then would
have "conveyed" to any foreigners in his class all they need to implement a
truly unbreakable cryptosystem.)

With one time pads, the pads _are_ the only thing that matters!

While I was not seriously suggesting that one time pads would be barred
from export, I expect that permission to export one would not be granted if
applied for, for certain countries. (Someone could do this as an exercise,
by applying for an export permit to export a pad to some verboten
destination...of course, by giving a copy of the pad to the BXA/EAR folks,
one has just compromised the pad, and so....)


>I know of nothing official that says that the pads themselves are
>exportable, but there is nothing in the regulations that suggests they
>are not.  Random number and encrypted messages are not regulated by
>the U.S. export regulations; only ``encryption software'' is
>regulated.  So far as I know the government has never claimed that
>one-time pads are, or are not, subject to the export regulations.

My hunch is that if exports of one time pads ever became a concern for them
they'd find something in the BXA/EAR language to classify the pads as being
controlled.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From mark at unicorn.com  Wed Nov  5 09:36:33 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (mark at unicorn.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:36:33 +0800
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
Message-ID: <878750546.15974.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>



tcmay at got.net wrote:

> CMR and the Policy Management Agent can (and presumably will) be set to
> scrutizine _all_  mail for "policy violations," outgoing as well as
> incoming mail.  The PGP page has some descriptions of their products.

Hmm, I looked but couldn't find any real detail. If it can force
encryption to a company key for outgoing mail as well, it's even
worse than I thought.

    Mark






From mixmaster at as-node.jena.thur.de  Wed Nov  5 09:40:40 1997
From: mixmaster at as-node.jena.thur.de (Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:40:40 +0800
Subject: Libertaria in Cyberspace
Message-ID: <m0xSzF2-00045MC@as-node.jena.thur.de>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

A lot has been written about Libertaria in Cyberspace both before and
after Timothy May wrote the paper by the same name. I wonder how such a
Libertaria will form.

For a truly free communications medium we must have strong cryptography.
This is a given. Anonymity cannot be insured without strong cryptography
and the freedom of remailers or similar mechanisms to operate
unobstructed. Speech is never truly free unless it can be anonymous if
the author so chooses.  Who wants to espouse an opinion which will get
them flogged, either figuratively or literally, by their neighbors, their
government, or in some cases even their family? 

In my opinion, Mr. May is correct when he says that physical space is too
small and too exposed to outside intervention. A floating oil tanker can
be torpedoed, and a small island simply invaded. Libertaria cannot easily
build a standing army without inviting intervention by world powers and
being dubbed as terrorists or an organized gang. 

Yes, cyberspace does look much more promising. The amount of "space" in
cyberspace is unbelievably large. The amount of data I can store on one
gigabyte of hard drive is incredible by conventional standards. Data on
one computer can be made accessible through a network to any number of
other computers and it can further be distributed. And space is very cheap
in cyberspace. A three gigabyte hard drive runs around two hundred U.S.
dollars and that price is dropping all the time.

A truly free communications medium must allow its users to be anonymous. 
Speech is never truly free unless it can be anonymous if the author so
chooses. Who wants to espouse an opinion which will get them flogged,
either figuratively or literally, by their neighbors, their government, or
their own family? Who wants to die "under mysterious circumstances" or in
an automobile "accident" on an empty road? 

That an opinion is unpopular does not make that opinion wrong or invalid.
That an author does not want his "true name" attached to an opinion does
not diminish the value of that opinion. In some cases an author simply
does not want to attract attention regardless of whether such attention be
positive or negative. 

Strong cryptography is necessary for anonymity and the secure exchange of
information. A remailer system such as we have built is simply not secure
without the aid of cryptography. No network connection is secure when the
connection is visible to anyone who has the capability and curiosity to
listen in. 

A disturbing trend on the Internet today is the opinion that "good users
are known users" and that "good users have nothing to hide." This kind of
idea is offered by the government of the United States as well as many
users and system administrators. Such an opinion is detrimental to the
free flow of ideas and information.

The arguments that a "good users are known users" policy is necessary to
curb "computer crime" and network abuse are invalid in my opinion. A great
percentage of "computer crime" is simply due to lax security protocols in
the first place. When somebody can go into a university and run a sniffer
program to get hundreds of passwords the problem is not so much that the
user is running the program as it is that the data is available to the
user in the first place. When somebody can get a throw-away account and
post 30,000 ads to USENET the problem is not so much the abuser as it is
abusing the network as it is a fault in the system. When people post
mindless drivel to a network the problem isn't so much the poster as it is
that such drivel is read and ranked at the same level with more legitimate
postings. 

The first case of somebody running a packet sniffer can be avoided very
easily by using encrypted protocols and secure machines. If root
permissions can not be easily obtained on a machine and they are necessary
to install trojans one major avenue for our cracker is blocked. If all
network traffic is encrypted the cracker's job becomes all but impossible.
Sadly most people seem to send passwords and vital information in the
clear and most machines do not have encrypted communications tools
installed. The majority of TCP/IP traffic is cleartext. 

The second and third cases of network abuse and drivel propagation are
avoidable by various common sense means. First, news servers can be
altered to not propagate massively crossposted articles or articles which
are virtually identical and posted to many different groups over a short
time period. Second, readers of news can use reputation capital systems to
eliminate the remainder of off-topic postings and mindless drivel. If I
trust Bob's opinion and Bob says that a particular posting is rubbish
nobody has been censored unless Bob becomes very powerful and misuses 
that power to censor opinions he doesn't like without anybody knowing. 
However even that sort of abuse can be avoided by people being able to 
retrieve what they aren't normally seeing to occasionally check. 

And the argument that encryption must be outlawed or the government must
have access to decryption keys is rediculous. The law abiding citizens will
be monitored while the real terrorists, child pornographers, and tax evaders
will hide their data in sounds or pictures and use encryption anyway. 

Put simply, for Libertaria to truly thrive in Cyberspace many things need
to occur: 

First, encrypted network layers must become easily available. Nobody
sitting on a network backbone should be able to see what I am saying or
what anybody is saying to me. Authentication should be included here as
well. 

Second, traffic analysis must be made considerably harder if not thwarted
totally. When I go to http://www.cypherpunks.to an outside observer should
not be able to see that I was the one who filed this request by watching 
my TCP/IP traffic. A modification of CROWDS is perhaps appropriate here. 

Third, some form of true distributed and redundant data system must be
created. Eternity servers as currently implemented accomplish this to a
certain extent, but don't seem to quite reach the mark. Some form of
truly redundant, distributed, and secure filesystem which spreads across
many jurisdictions would be most appropriate, I think. There are many
technical problems involved in this however. As with anything else, such a
filesystem should be anonymous and should be very hard to shut down. 

Fourth, if indeed a programmer in the United States can use a crypto library
available outside the United States without infringing on ITAR then
programmers outside the United States should begin work on such a library.
Such a library should include many different algorithms for authentication,
encryption, and key exchange. This would allow programmers inside the United
States to legally write software which employs these technologies.

Fifth, existing news and mail readers on all major platforms need to be
altered to support anonymous remailers, encryption, decryption,
authentication, and key exchange. This should include, at minimum, Windows,
the Macintosh, and UNIX variants. 

Perhaps a whole new set of network protocols is necessary even if a bit
grandiose.

Tim May is correct: Libertaria will thrive in cyberspace. 

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K+X0iP1YTknbzSC0neSRBzZrM2w4DUUdD3yIsxx8Wy2O9vPJI8BD8KVbGI2Ou1WM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=TMag
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From frantz at netcom.com  Wed Nov  5 09:46:28 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:46:28 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03110716b0865fb9b2a0@[207.94.249.121]>



At 2:32 PM -0800 11/4/97, Adam Back wrote:
>What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
>rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
>your passphrase.

Think about it for a minute.  randseed.bin is a place to store entropy.
Entropy is about uncertainty.  If I do a reversible transform (e.g.
encrypt) to randseed.bin, I still recover the entropy without reversing
(e.g. decrypting) the transform.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From reusch at home.com  Wed Nov  5 10:24:18 1997
From: reusch at home.com (Reusch)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:24:18 +0800
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0853170bbd3@[204.254.22.175]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105131608.007f8100@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>



>"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
>explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
>period."
>
>-Declan

That's less than 1/10 porns per second! You would think that the
Carnegie Mellon Institute could afford a faster link.

-I am not myself today






From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Nov  5 10:39:21 1997
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:39:21 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971105100833.00c90b10@dnai.com>



At 09:23 AM 11/5/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>From: Lizard <lizard at mrlizard.com>:
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
>===========
>Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
>finally noticed something about Christians....
>Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
>(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments,

But they've got the Sabbath on the wrong day. :)
And they certainly worship power more than they worship God, which is a
violation of #1.

 which is a hell of a
>lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
>Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
>how to conduct a Passover service! 

You follow the step-by-step instructions in the little blue Maxwell House
book with all the Hebrew words transliterarted into english syllables. Duh!

 Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
>is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
>same as being "kind of" pregnant.
>
So, you're saying my formerly Greek Orthodox friend who converted to
Judaism (and who I call up when I need to remember what holiday is what
'cause she knows this stuff better than me) and goes to the only synagogue
in New York with a lesbian Rabbi isn't a good Jew? Or, for that matter, my
entire family? (Concervative Jews, except for my Uncle who got 'born again'
and is now a minister in Virginia or something. But he produced ample
grandchildren, so he was forgiven.)

>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)

Given the dominant number of Red Sea Pedestrians on this list, I doubt most
of the comments can be classed as anti-semetic. Anti-Jodi, perhaps -- but
unlike the Jews, you've earned every barb tossed at you.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 10:45:30 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:45:30 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks Web
Message-ID: <199711051825.TAA23083@basement.replay.com>



Cypherpunks International (CYPHERPUNKS5-DOM)
   23 Net St. Ste 31337
   New York, NY 10001

   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.ORG

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Burnham, Daniel E. A  (DEB48)  deab at FRESH.FLY.NET
      212-840-2600
   Billing Contact:
      Burnham, Daniel E. A  (DEB48)  deab at FRESH.FLY.NET
      212-840-2600

   Record last updated on 20-Sep-97.
   Record created on 04-Jul-97.
   Database last updated on 5-Nov-97 05:56:01 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS.OTEC.COM                  206.64.4.67
   NS1.EARTHWEB.COM             206.152.10.2

-----------------------------------------

Cypherpunks (CYPHERPUNKS4-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   US

   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.NET

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Shostack, Adam  (AS409)  adam at HOMEPORT.ORG
      (617) 354-4827
   Billing Contact:
      Shostack, Adam  (AS409)  adam at HOMEPORT.ORG
      (617) 354-4827

   Record last updated on 11-Apr-97.
   Record created on 11-Apr-97.
   Database last updated on 5-Nov-97 05:56:01 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS.HOMEPORT.ORG              205.136.65.205
   SATISFIED.APOCALYPSE.ORG     192.48.232.24

-----------------------------------------

cypherpunks (REMAILER-DOM)
   1819 Woolsey St.
   Berkeley, CA 94703

   Domain Name: REMAILER.NET

   Administrative Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric at SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1 at DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Billing Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric at SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526

   Record last updated on 16-Apr-97.
   Record created on 09-Nov-94.
   Database last updated on 5-Nov-97 05:56:01 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   FLYING.FISH.COM              140.174.97.13
   NS1.SAC.NET                  208.146.161.2







From bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us  Wed Nov  5 10:52:57 1997
From: bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us (Brandon Crosby)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:52:57 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711051838.MAA30824@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>



> 
> >More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
> >therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
> >that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
> >convenient.
> >
> >If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
> >for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
> >bottom-feeders taxed into penury.
> 
> Nonsense. And a dangerous course.
Yes.

> One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
> particularly strong opinion on either option.
> 
> But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
> opinions expressed by a church!
Agian, yes.

> One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
> anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30 years.
> Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism "into
> penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist Entity.

'Political Agenda' and free speech are two seperate things. Nowadays, free
speech is constantly being challanged by racism, bias and such. People sue
each other because they say something that makes someone feel bad. Churches
lie at the center of free speech, being awarded for their views by tax
exemption. Should 3M have tax exemptions because it gives people jobs?

While I do not want a debate over tax exemptions in churches, 'Free Speech'
may very well involve supporting canidates for positions in a democracy.
This is the very basis for elections. However, one begins to question this
reasoning when a church leader attempts to get into the government, using
the church's tax exemptions, for either support of the church, support of
self, or some illegal (or, at least, unethical) mix.

Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.

Uncle Sam (and his son, IRS) really shouldn't be applied to this subject:
What is free speech? Is tax exemption justifiable to all types of [free]
speech?

-Brandon Crosby




[Can you see the ghosts making snowmen?]






From eay at cryptsoft.com  Wed Nov  5 11:02:35 1997
From: eay at cryptsoft.com (Eric Young)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:02:35 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <t53yb35r8pl.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971106044557.26497A-100000@pandora.cryptsoft.com>




On 3 Nov 1997, Marc Horowitz wrote:
> Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
> about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
> copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
> duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
> and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
> copy them.

hmm... Besides the initial cost of a CD writer (which is coming down alot),
blank CDs cost $8AU (or about $5US).  I would not call that expensive relative
to the game cost (about $90AU).  On a double speed drive it takes about 30
minutes to duplicate a 600meg game, lots less for those that don't fill the
CD :-).

I think this is starting to become a real problem.

> I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem,
> outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.

Having visited some friends recently that had most of the recent interesting
games written onto a few CDs (multiple games on single CDs) I don't agree.

eric






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Nov  5 11:06:27 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:06:27 +0800
Subject: entropy theft (Re: Privacy Software)
In-Reply-To: <v03110716b0865fb9b2a0@[207.94.249.121]>
Message-ID: <199711051828.SAA09379@server.test.net>




Bill Frantz <frantz at netcom.com> writes:
> 
> At 2:32 PM -0800 11/4/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
> >rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
> >your passphrase.
> 
> Think about it for a minute.  randseed.bin is a place to store entropy.
> Entropy is about uncertainty.  If I do a reversible transform (e.g.
> encrypt) to randseed.bin, I still recover the entropy without reversing
> (e.g. decrypting) the transform.

You might get some entropy from it -- but you won't get my PRNG state!
An attacker is welcome to the entropy, but may find it cheaper to
generate his own entropy than to copy some of mine.

There are certain attacks which become possible when an attacker can
snarf a copy of your randseed.bin, eg. the attacker can predict
session keys if he can guess your plaintext, and you are using an
environment which does not allow pgp2.x to sample your keystrokes (eg
integrated mail scripts).

randseed.bin is more sensitive than people treat it.  pgp2.x encrypts
private keys because people could use them to decrypt traffic, but it
does not encrypt the randseed.bin which could in some circumstances
also allow traffic to be decrypted.

An ergonomic disadvantage of encrypting randseed.bin is that you would
need to enter the passphrase to decrypt it before being able to
encrypt messages.  (You could make that optional -- and just use it in
encrypted form when you couldn't be bothered entropy shows through :-)

Encrypted public and private key rings is a separate good, and this
because it obscures who you are talking to and what your nyms are.
premail does this for you.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Wed Nov  5 11:24:50 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:24:50 +0800
Subject: Sympatico Petition
In-Reply-To: <19971105023946.22696.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3460C3E2.5395@sk.sympatico.ca>



john smith wrote:
> 
> Please tell me everything Sympatico has done to make you think they
> moniter your email. Everything please and i can make something of it.

  When I first saw your email re: Sympatico petition, I assumed
that Sympatico would be monitoring activity surrounding the
petition. I visted your web site on Oct 28 and surfed around.
When I got to the petition-signing page, I decided not to sign,
in order to see if those merely visiting the page were being 
monitored.

I pretty much forgot about it until I got an email from Sympatico Admin
which dealt with what appeared to be bogus concerns, and containing
vague threats of loss of access.
I checked out the headers on my past incoming and outgoing email
and found changes in the way it was routed and dealt with--changes
which started shortly after I visited your website. I confirmed
the results of my traffic analysis on my own account by checking
them against those of another Sympatico account whose records 
I have access to, and which is used as a 'control' because it is 
used only for very normal and boring communications by a very regular
jane/joe.
(The changes started late on Oct 28th, and I got the threat from
 Sympatico on Nov. 4th.)

As well, my follow up communications with Sympatico Admin resulted in
replies which contained further evidence that the claims they were
making in regard for the reasons for their actions were askew.

Sympatico is little more than a company that acts as a front for
the Canadian Telecos, so that they can continue to operate what are
basically monopolies, without appearing to do so.
SaskTel charged outrageous connect charges of ~$5.00 an hour out
in the boonies, as long as they could. When it became apparent that
they couldn't get away with it for much longer, Sympatico appeared
on the scene, as SaskTel's 'competition'.
The two entered into a sweetheart deal which effectively allows
Sympatico and SaskTel to operate a dual monopoly, by making it
difficult for small operators in the boonies to get a cut of the
action.

You may have noticed that 'Sympatico Admin' is pretty much synonymous
with the SaskNet Admin. Their bum-buddy relationship is covered by
only a thin veil of pretension.
SaskTel still manages to maintain a semi-monopoly in the big cities,
but their real power comes in the boondocks, where the Sympatico
deal allowing no toll-charges effectively cuts out the smaller
providers who can only offer services to a handful of in-area
customers.

The bottom line is that there are advantages to the basic infrastrucure
of the system being developed by a single entity, such as SaskTel, but
if that entity is allowed to pick and choose who receives preferred 
treatment, then they tend to do so in their own interests, and not in
the interests of the end users.
SaskTel charged $5.00/hr connect time in the boonies until there were
enough complaints that they made a deal with Sympatico to control the
market at slightly less monopolistic rates. People tend not to figure
out that the change from $5.00/hr to around $1.50/hr, practically
overnight, merely reflects that SaskTel charged over twice what was
reasonable, for as long as they could get away with it.

I checked the numbers, in regard to bandwidth costs, etc., to hook up
and provide an InterNet service, and found that the types of rates
you quote on your website are not out of line, but are not possible
if one cannot get the type of deal Sympatico gets.
  e.g. - I charge you $20/month for total access, but you pay $6.00/hr
        to SaskTel for long-distance charges, to connect.

SaskTel/Sympatico will continue to maintain a monopoly whose prices
will reflect how much they can charge before complaints force them
to move toward more truly competitive rates.
I applaud your efforts to make some noise in this regard, and hope
that they have the effect of forcing SaskTel/Sympatico to maintain
their monopoly at more reasonable rates than at present.

I am somewhat notorious in certain areas of the underground computer
movement, having been involved in the dissemination of a number of 
subversive on-line manuscripts, so I often get hackers and phreaks 
sending me confidential information from my ISP's.
I found it rather humorous that the original email from the Sympatico
Admin:
> Please note: this note is being sent to our security dept. as we
> deem this type of activity to be mis-use of the mail system and
> as such you could loose your access privileges.
...contained an 'additional' note from a hacker named the Evil-1,
who added:
> [And I'll make sure you get a copy! (;>} ~~ Evil-1]

Toto
~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov  5 11:30:03 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:30:03 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks Web
In-Reply-To: <199711051825.TAA23083@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971105202030.2645A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>    Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.ORG
[...]
>    Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.NET
[...]
>    Domain Name: REMAILER.NET

Anonymous omitted CYPHERPUNKS.TO

Presumably because he couldn't figure out how to pull a whois for TO.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"







From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov  5 11:36:51 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:36:51 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971106044557.26497A-100000@pandora.cryptsoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971105202634.2645B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Eric Young wrote:
> 
> Having visited some friends recently that had most of the recent interesting
> games written onto a few CDs (multiple games on single CDs) I don't agree.

Things will get even better once DVD writers hit the street.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov  5 11:55:03 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:55:03 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711051838.MAA30824@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0866998c9a9@[207.167.93.63]>




List members should know that there is a debate about taxation of
corporations. That is, a corporation gets taxed on its profits, then the
profits are again taxed when they are dispersed in some form to the owners
of the corporation (shareholders). Thus, every dollar Alpha Corporation
earns as profit (roughly, sales revenues minus costs of doing business) is
taxed at the corporate rate, which is roughly 40-45%. Federal and state.
Not counting property taxes, energy taxes, etc.

Then the profits are dispersed, in some cases, to the owners and
shareholders, in the form of dividends or the like. This "income" is then
again taxed, at rates between 35 and 45%, again depending on the state and
other circumstances.

Bear this in mind when thinking about taxing churches or other charitable
contribution-based entities.

At 11:38 AM -0700 11/5/97, Brandon Crosby wrote:

>While I do not want a debate over tax exemptions in churches, 'Free Speech'
>may very well involve supporting canidates for positions in a democracy.
>This is the very basis for elections. However, one begins to question this
>reasoning when a church leader attempts to get into the government, using
>the church's tax exemptions, for either support of the church, support of
>self, or some illegal (or, at least, unethical) mix.
>
>Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
>I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
>removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.

(There's an important difference between "taxing churches," i.e., applying
the income tax to churches, and eliminating the "tax deduction" for
charitably contributions. I assume the discussion has mostly been about
taxing churches, based on the comments about "taxing them into penury." Tax
deductibility has not been an important factor for many to consider, I
believe, due to the complications of claiming the deduction, the limits on
deductions, etc.)

Most churches operate mostly on charitable contributions.  So, imagine that
the Mormon Church, for example, loses its tax-exempt status and must pay
income taxes.

Imagine a worker for Novell, in Utah. Novell pays 40% of profits in taxes
and, for this example, disperses the rest. The dividends or proceeds of
sales of stock are taxed at about 30%. A Mormon employee gives money to the
Mormon Church.. The Mormon Church pays 30-40% on this "income" (perhaps
less "expenses"--churches are going to have to act like corporations!).

(By the way, one of the big problems with taxing churches on income is this
very issue: what counts as a "profit" for the church?)

Do the math: the initial dollar earned by Novell has been taxed 3 times (to
multiple tax collectors, federal, state, and maybe local). And 75% of it
has been taken in the process.

This is the danger of taxation in general, and taxation of donations in
particular.

As to what the church does with the money, who cares? Another way of
looking at a church is as a pooling of donations to accomplish some end,
e.g., saving souls, getting the U.S. out of Viet Nam, removing bad engrams,
etc. Why should people who have already been taxed twice (first the
corporations, then their dividends) be forced to pay a third set of taxes
just because they are donating?

Oh, and the same logic applies to a political action committee.

It doesn't make sense. Which is why we can expect to see it in the tax code
next year.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From vipul at best.com  Wed Nov  5 12:22:55 1997
From: vipul at best.com (Vipul Ved Prakash)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:22:55 +0800
Subject: [news] TV station sets cybersex sting
Message-ID: <199711060101.BAA00649@fountainhead.net>



*** TV station sets cybersex sting

With cyperporn and cybersex ranking as sensational news items on
local TV stations, Fox's Los Angeles outlet has taken the trend a
step further by ensnaring adult sexual predators. KTTV's Fox 11 News
at 10 worked with a 21-year-old woman posing as a 14-year-old to
conduct cybersting operations that led to the arrests of five men.
KTTV used the unnamed woman as bait, having her enter online chat
rooms where she was immediately targeted. The station filmed the
online seductions as well as the arrests of the men, who included an
attorney, a doctor, a retired Army officer and an investigator for
the Dept. of Labor. See story at
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5777644-464






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 13:12:45 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:12:45 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711052039.VAA07597@basement.replay.com>



Brandon Crosby wrote:
> While I do not want a debate over tax exemptions in churches, 'Free Speech'
> may very well involve supporting canidates for positions in a democracy.
> This is the very basis for elections. However, one begins to question this
> reasoning when a church leader attempts to get into the government, using
> the church's tax exemptions, for either support of the church, support of
> self, or some illegal (or, at least, unethical) mix.

  The problem, as I see it, is that the laws regarding political
donations
and resulting political activity are different from the laws regarding
church donations, thus leading to the Christian Right using the
differences
to bypassing the restrictions that are placed on organizations
registered
as political groups.
  If 'Joe's Whorehouse and Illegal Drug Emporium' were to engage in the
same types of political activities that the 'We Wear Halos Church' did,
they would be subject to arrest and imprisonment for a wide variety of
violations of electoral law.

Vote-Reality is that most politicians would no sooner oppose a totally
unconstitutional law that promises to 'save the life of a single child',
than they would promote the prosecution of the 'good guys' for doing 
'bad things'.
Churches hold the same favored 'good guy' status as policemen who 
violate the civil rights of 'bad' citizens.

> Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
> I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
> removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.

  Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized 
entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
  Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.

Most of the issues/problems discussed on the Cypherpunks list are often
dealt with in terms of a combination of 'the way things are' vs. 'the
way things should be' vs. 'the way things are becoming'.
My view is that things have become so askew that any one of the above,
or any of them in combination, are not adequate for dealing with what
is to come in the near future.

The statement of one of the founding fathers, in regard to needing a
revolution every twenty years, or so, should be considered in the light
of the history of 'forest fires.'
Forest fires know that there should be a 'revolution every twenty years'
but humans do not. In our foolish wisdom, we decide to intervene in 
the natural course of things, to 'make things better'. We then proceed
to put the natural balance so far out of askew that, once we have 
'saved' the forests by not allowing forest kindling to burn for a
hundred years, the Forest Stock Market undergoes a major 'correction'.

The structure of American government, electoral laws, charitable tax
deductions, etc., are not inherently evil in themselves. The problem
is that they have all been subject to interference with the basic
underlying concepts, in efforts to improve them with a 'more is
better' mentality, that they are all ripe for burning.
["Welfare (charity) has resulted in many positive benefits. Hey! 
 I have a good idea! Let's put _everyone_ on welfare!]

The structure of government/laws/society is very similar to that
of the Internet, with everything being linked in ways that 
become increasingly complex once individual entities decide that
things need to be done a 'certain way' in their own self-interest,
instead of in the needs of the underlying infrastructure.
The problems multiply as the number of entities deciding which
'certain' way is the 'right' way becomes smaller.

"Spam is bad. _I_ am going to _save_ everyone from spam. Flames 
aren't so good, either. I'd better save you from 'flames' as
well. What constitutes a flame? Well, it all begins with
disagreement and, since I decide what is and is not a flame,
I guess that a flame could be defined as disagreement with
_me_!"
("In order to save the list from spam, we had to destroy the list.")

Now that we are all aware of the disruptive manipulations of the
Evil Dr. Vulis, perhaps he has changed his online persona to that
of 'Jodi Hoffman'. (:>}

NukeReality!
~~~~~~~~~~~~







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 13:17:25 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:17:25 +0800
Subject: [news] TV station sets cybersex sting
Message-ID: <199711052047.VAA08574@basement.replay.com>



Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>
> *** TV station sets cybersex sting
>
> With cyperporn and cybersex ranking as sensational news items on
> local TV stations, Fox's Los Angeles outlet has taken the trend a
> step further by ensnaring adult sexual predators. KTTV's Fox 11 News
> at 10 worked with a 21-year-old woman posing as a 14-year-old to
> conduct cybersting operations that led to the arrests of five men.
> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5777644-464

And Fox is going to do a similar entrapment sting on Catholic
priests, right?






From jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Wed Nov  5 13:41:45 1997
From: jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:41:45 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711052039.VAA07597@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971105135552.18286Z-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:


--- respond to jim.burnes at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com --- (you know the drill)

> Brandon Crosby wrote:
> > Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
> > I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
> > removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.
> 
>   Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized 
> entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
> The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
> types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
> is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
>   Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
> Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
> becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.
> 

Ha!  This is pretty interesting.  Rather than the typical cypherpunk
approach of eliminating such inefficient and corrupting methods as
income taxation and tax exemption we are playing by their game.

The whole of HG Wells warning to society was that by systematically
altering the language, you alter the things that can be discussed.

The phrase "Tax exemption" is the newspeak form of "favored religious
group that isn't currently being financially punished for speaking
out against their masters".  The unspoken assumption in the
exempt/not-exempt argument is that you want federal income
taxation for anyone.  It also assumes there are "favored" groups vs.
"unfavored"  groups by the federal government.  Of course this all flies
directly in the face of limited constitutional government. 

So rather than bitch and moan about how the Churches are exempt, why
not rejoice in the fact that at least the churches are free from
taxation.  We are part of the way there.

Or start your own church.  ;-)

Jim

jim.burnes at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com
(de-spamify if you wish to respond)







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 14:18:32 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:18:32 +0800
Subject: Springer/Gates Merger
Message-ID: <199711052159.WAA18144@basement.replay.com>



CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS:
[CNN, Bienfait, Saskatchewan] BAR OWNERS at the Coaldust Saloon, 
in violation of Canadian bartender/customer confidentiality laws, 
revealed details of a planned merger between Micro$oft and the
Jerry Springer Show.
Computer magnate Bill Gates has signed a secret deal with Jerry
Springer to host a variety of WebTV productions which will be
InterActive variations on the 'Terminal Man' theme.
Springer, upset over the news media outcry over his proposed move
toward bringing his Barnum & Baily act into the mainstream news
forum, plans to take his revenge by using Micro$oft's domination
in the lowest-common-denominator market to parlay his lack of
good taste and journalistic ethics into a full-scale assasult on
the elitest mainstream news media which continues to ignore the
real desires of the general public.

Philip R. Zimmerman, former head of PGP, Inc., announced his new
position as Publicity Representative for 'New Reality Productions'
by saying, "Daddy always told me, 'If you're going to sell out a
little, you might as well sell out a lot--and make the BIG bucks.'"
PRZ told gathered reporters that the increasing interest shown by
television viewers in shows such as 'The World's Scariest Police
Chases' threatened the growing popularity of the InterNet as the
medium of the future.

Zimmerman said, "The virtual reality of TV and the movies has always
been a harbringer of the virtual future. The success of Terminal Man
showed that the future was in snuff-flicks, and Police Chases was
the natural movement of that theme into the trend toward Real TV."
PRZ added, "The InterActive capabilities of the InterNet will allow
the Gates/Springer merger to give the viewers the ability to get
personally involved in the decisions as to who lives and who dies."

New technologies which enable law enforcement agencies to activate
kill-switches in fleeing automobiles have been abandoned in favor
of technologies which allow the home viewer to use joysticks to 
control the movement of the criminal's vehicle and those of their
police pursuers.
Zimmerman defended the use of the new technology by saying, "Sure,
snuff-flicks used to be illegal, but so did gambling and drinking.
'New Reality Productions' is just following the money."

The beta-testing of the new technology took place on the CypherPunks
mailing list, where list subscribers were given the opportunity to
actively participate in the second 'moderation experiment' on the
list by using their accumulated Moral Majority Reputation Credits 
to kill undesirable posts to the list.
Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson, Jodi Hoffman, said that putting 
control of the list in the hands of the lowest common denominator
had stemmed the "downward spiral" of the mailing list and that
the Christian CypherPunks mailing list was a definite improvement
over the original non-Christian-Jew infested CDR list.
"Once we got rid of the Christkillers and the Commies," Hoffman
proclaimed, "the list postings trickled down to two or three a
day, but if it saves the life of just one child..."






From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov  5 14:19:50 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:19:50 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: Horsemen]Horsemen
Message-ID: <3460EBD9.7527@dev.null>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 14:51:01 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:51:01 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711052226.XAA21798@basement.replay.com>



Jim Burnes wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >   Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized
> > entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
> > The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
> > types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
> > is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
> >   Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
> > Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
> > becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.

> Ha!  This is pretty interesting.  Rather than the typical cypherpunk
> approach of eliminating such inefficient and corrupting methods as
> income taxation and tax exemption we are playing by their game.

  Taxation and exemptions are, conceptually, no different than a
tribal agreement that those who bring home the deer will share
with those who guard the campsite, and that the shaman who keeps
the evil spirits at bay has to do neither.
  When one strips the semantics from various cypherpunks posts, 
there is usually an underlying agreement that there should be
no 'free rides' and no 'oppressive burdens.' <-- generality>

> The whole of HG Wells warning to society was that by systematically
> altering the language, you alter the things that can be discussed.

  I believe that half of the disagreements on the cypherpunks list,
and the vast majority of disagreements in the world in general, are
the result of disputes over semantics, rather than beliefs.
 
> rather than bitch and moan about how the Churches are exempt, why
> not rejoice in the fact that at least the churches are free from
> taxation.  We are part of the way there.

  Revolutionary idea! Instead of calling for Churches to be subject
to the same oppressive taxation as the rest of us, call for the rest
of us to be given the same exemptions as Churches.
  I vote Jim Burnes the honorary title of 'CypherPunks Chief Taxation
Spokesperson' (Norman Vincent Peale Chapter).

> Or start your own church.  ;-)

  I agree.

TruthPastor
"CypherPunks Church of One"
(All donations declared by myself to be tax deductible--check with the
 authorities in *your* jail cell (*after* sending me money) as to their
 views in this regard.)






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 14:55:54 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:55:54 +0800
Subject: Government goons force Goddard to recant
Message-ID: <199711052229.XAA22328@basement.replay.com>



Time to add a new horseman: "conspiracy theory-spreading libertarians"

...



   CNN logo
   [ISMAP]-Navigation
   Infoseek/Big Yellow
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros
   Barnes and Noble
   Main banner Weird guy. Cool phone. Click here.
   
                                    rule
                                      
                    TWA missile theory co-author apologizes
                                       
     Salinger
     
  Says report was 'reckless'
  
     From Correspondent Christine Negroni
     
     November 5, 1997
     Web posted at: 2:05 p.m. EST (1905 GMT)
     
     NEW YORK (CNN) -- Ian Goddard, co-author of a report that claimed
     the U.S. Navy shot down TWA Flight 800, has told CNN that those
     charges were "reckless and a mistake."
     
     In a written statement to CNN, Goddard apologized to "all those in
     the Navy I have wrongfully accused" and to "those who believed in
     my efforts and who are now upset with me for my change of mind."
     
     Goddard co-authored the report with former ABC news reporter Pierre
     Salinger and a third man, Mike Sommers.
     
     Ian Goddard's statement to CNN:
     "While many witness accounts remain a mystery to me, I believe that
     my effort to pin the crash of TWA 800 on the Navy was reckless and
     a mistake. I apologize to all those in the Navy I have wrongfully
     accused. I also apologize to those who believed in my efforts and
     who are now upset with me for my change of mind. "We all need to
     put our support behind the families of the victims of TWA 800. Many
     who died left children behind who now need your support... Please
     give."
     
     National Transportation Safety Board spokesman Peter Goelz, on
     learning of the Goddard apology, said that Goddard had done real
     damage, particularly to the victims' families, by promoting charges
     that the Navy's "friendly fire" caused the July 1996 crash.
     
     "He has caused innumerable people great agony," Goelz said, adding
     that both the FBI and the NTSB had to spend time responding to what
     were basically groundless accusations.
     
     Joe Lychner of Houston, who lost his wife and two daughters in the
     crash, told CNN that Goddard and Salinger owe an explanation to the
     American public.
     
     The so-called Salinger report laid out an elaborate conspiracy
     theory that alleged a huge government cover-up following the TWA
     crash. Goddard had kept the theory alive on a Web site he created,
     which now appears to have been discontinued.
     
  "I just wanted to give the government a black eye by any means that looked
  opportune. TWA 800 was just a vehicle for my larger agenda."
  
    &#151; Ian Goddard
    
     Goddard has recently E-mailed associates about his report. In those
     messages, Goddard called his support of the conspiracy theory "a
     big mistake," and said he only pursued the charges because he
     "wanted to give the government a black eye by any means that looked
     opportune."
     
     Goddard says he wanted to promote libertarian ideology by
     encouraging distrust of the government.
     
     CNN's Christine Negroni reports on the admission:
     icon 2 min. 30 sec. VXtreme video
     
     When contacted by CNN about Goddard's statement, Salinger said that
     he is moving on from his investigation into the TWA crash, although
     he did not retract any of his charges that a Navy missile brought
     down the 747. Salinger called FBI Deputy Director James Kallstrom
     last week and told him that he was giving up his probe.
     
     In his statement to CNN, Goddard asked that the public support the
     families of the victims of TWA 800 and that donations be made to
     the Flight 800 Family Relief Fund.
     
     TWA Flight 800 crashed off Long Island, killing all 230 people on
     board. The FBI and NTSB have not yet named an official cause of the
     accident.
       ______________________________________________________________
     
                                      
                      � 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
                            All Rights Reserved.
                                      







From kelsey at plnet.net  Wed Nov  5 14:56:59 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:56:59 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711052249.QAA06301@email.plnet.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 11/03/97 ##
  Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy ]

>Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:26:03 -0700
>To: "John Kelsey" <kelsey at plnet.net>,
>    "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks at Algebra.COM>
>From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
>Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy

>Such insurance is now common. A boat owner doesn't buy
>insurance for iceberg collisions if he is never in arctic
>waters, a small plane pilot doesn't buy cargo insurance if
>he doesn't ferry cargo, and so on.

Yes, I understand this.  Nobody with a grain of sense
insures himself for things he knows will never happen.

>>the point of having insurance, which is to protect yourself
>>from low probability high cost things happening.  That is,

>I have a different view of what insurance is than John does.

>What insurance is, and how it is priced, is too long a topic
>to get into here. Suffice it to say that the insurance
>company makes its profits by charging more for coverage than
>it pays out. And the customer, of course, tends to lose the
>differential.

An insurance broker and a bookie are in the same business.
A bookie takes a bet from me, at 1000 to 1 odds, for some
unlikely to occur event--which he thinks has a probability
of less than 1/1000.  An insurance broker does the same
thing.  The only important difference is my purpose in
placing the bet.  When I take out medical insurance, I am
placing a bet that I will get sick enough to spend more than
my deductable on doctors.  The insurance broker estimates
(based on whatever information is available) the probability
that this will happen, and makes me a bet at odds that are
in his favor, if his estimate is true.  If I get sick, I get
some money (or my doctors do).  If I stay well, I lose the
bet.  This is just paying someone to take some risk off my
hands.

>Each side tries to get as much information as possible. If
>Joe Client knows he never pilots a cargo plane, he doesn't
>opt for cargo insurance. If Joe Client knows he never
>engages in unprotected sex with diseasy prostitutes, etc.,
>he skips HIV insurance. The fact that some "low probability
>events," like meteor strikes, are uncovered is part of the
>price of keeping Joe's premiums tolerable.

>>before I've taken the test for genetic disease X, my best
>>estimate of the probability that I will test positive is
>>very low.  Once I have taken it, I know the result.  If I
>>sign up for a-la-carte insurance for this disease, the
>>insurance company effectively knows I must have tested
>>positive for a predisposition to it, and so either won't
>>give me insurance, or will give me insurance only at an
>>extremely high rate (corresponding to a 1/10 chance of
>>getting the disease, rather than a 1/1,000,000 chance).

>This is the idea. It causes those with the predilections to
>the disease to pay the high coverage costs.

Right.  I don't think I expressed my point too clearly,
because you seem to have responded to something different
than what I was saying.  Suppose there is some genetic
disease that kills its victims on their 31st birthday,
unless they get a $1,000,000 treatment first.  Before I have
taken the test for this disease, I have to accept a certain
risk--if I find out I have the disease, I have to raise a
million dollars in the next few months.  After I have taken
the test and gotten back the results, there's no more risk
involved (assuming the test is perfect)--I either have the
disease or I don't.  After the test, insurance isn't useful
(unless I defraud my insurer).  Before the test, though,
insurance might be useful--I could essentially place a bet
with someone that I had the disease--I pay $1, and get a
million dollars back if my test comes back positive--just
enough to pay for my treatment.

>The alternative is not pretty: banning private testing
>(how?) and forcing insurance companies to cover all
>applicants for all conditions at a fixed rate.

I know.  Let me make it clear that I am not at all
interested in banning private testing, coercing insurance
companies or anyone else into agreements they don't want to
make, etc.  I am saying it would be nice if I could buy
insurance against the results of the tests before I took
them.  The problem is, I can't see a really workable way to
do this, because there's no way to keep people from taking
the test beforehand.

>--Tim May

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36






From kelsey at plnet.net  Wed Nov  5 15:02:36 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:02:36 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711052249.QAA06303@email.plnet.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks, Perry's Crypto List ## Date: 11/03/97 ##
  Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol ]

>Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
>From: Marc Horowitz <marc at cygnus.com>
>Date: 03 Nov 1997 16:03:34 -0500

>Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have
>stopped worrying about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games
>come on CD-ROM, and copying a CD-ROM is an expensive,
>time-consuming operation.  Bulk duplication of CD's is
>substantially cheaper than one-off duplication, and since
>games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
>copy them.

This is a nice situation for CD-ROM-based video games.
However, it's probably a temporary situation.  Currently,
downloading a novel, even over modem lines, isn't all that
time-consuming.  If available bandwidth and storage capacity
keeps getting cheaper, the same will soon be true for
digital audio, and later, for digital video.  The number of
bits required to hold a twenty-minute piece of music at CD
quality isn't going to increase over time.

>While the cost of one-off CD duplication will certainly
>drop, I see no reason that media will not change form in the
>future.  As long as it's cheaper or more convenient to buy
>digital media from the publisher than to copy it yourself,
>the piracy problem basically doesn't exist.

Separate the medium from the information.  For computer
programs, it's possible to just keep bloating the data to
keep piracy from paying.  (To some extent, anyway.)  For
novels, music, and video, that's not going to work. The unit
of music I'm interested in listening to will probably not
change much.

>This is exactly
>what makes copyright work for books: I can duplicate a book,
>but it will cost more than buying it legitimately.  (There
>is still the problem of systematic large-scale piracy, but
>this is relatively easy to notice and prosecute under
>existing law.)

But once someone has scanned in the text from the book, it
costs approximately nothing to make another copy.  This
works as well for digitized music, video, and images.  Once
the data is available somewhere in digital form, it's almost
free to copy.  In a world with jurisdiction-shopping,
eternity servers, high-quality anonymous e-mail, anonymous
payment mechanisms, and cheap, high-bandwidth connections,
that digital data has to get onto the net *once*, and it is
free forever to anyon who will take the trouble to find it.

For books, one reason this doesn't happen more often now is
that the display technology for most computers is not nearly
as easy to read as even cheaply-printed paperbacks.  This is
sure to change with time.  Widespread use of DVDs will get
rid of the advantages of CDs and cassettes for listening to
music.

>Short works (newspapers, magazines, journals, etc.) will
>need a different mechanism, such as advertising, but that
>infrastructure is creating itself today.

It's essentially the same problem for text works.  A text
work you can't fit on one CD with compression is unlikely to
be something you can get many people to read all the way
through.  (The exception is reference material, where you
want *everything* of interest to be there, even though you
will surely read only a tiny fraction of the material.)

The real distinction here is timeliness.  If some
information is only valuable when it's timely, then it's
probably going to make sense to get the information from its
source, even if it costs money or you have to look at some
ads.  If the information is valuable weeks later, then it
may be hard to charge much money for access to it.

>		Marc

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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erGdU+e5cwQ=
=uFfo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36






From kelsey at plnet.net  Wed Nov  5 15:03:09 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:03:09 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711052249.QAA06307@email.plnet.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 11/05/97 ##
  Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy ]

>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:05:16 -0700
>From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
>Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy

>What an insurance card is really a *line of credit*. Or a
>*proof of payment*. The admitting hospital knows they'll at
>least be reimbursed for the initial visit and emergency
>treatment.

>Perhaps there's a business idea for some enterprising
>Cypherpunk. A prepaid hospital card, good for a few days'
>worth of treatment (e.g., $5000), but only at the better
>rates. This could even be done with Chaumian
>privacy-protecting methods. There's an idea.

This seems straightforward enough in principle.  It's just
like a prepaid credit card, or even a normal credit card,
right?  I mean, what it says on the card is probably
different, but the financial arrangements are pretty-much
the same.  I suspect it would be easier to implement this
(at least in the US) as an extra function on a credit card,
rather than as a new kind of insurance, since there are so
many odd insurance regulations out there.  Currently, lots
of credit cards offer special benefits like automatic
insurance on rental cars--this seems like a close variation
on the same idea.

>--Tim May


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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36






From gary at hotlava.com  Wed Nov  5 15:17:55 1997
From: gary at hotlava.com (Gary Howland)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:17:55 +0800
Subject: SSL Browser info
Message-ID: <199711052259.OAA29112@toad.com>



Hi,

You may be interested to know that I've set up a web page at

	http://www.hotlava.com/demos/ssl-query.html

which displays the SSL version and cipher types of your browser.

Gary
-- 
pub  1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22  Gary Howland <gary at hotlava.com>
Key fingerprint =  0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D  1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 







From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Nov  5 15:30:48 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:30:48 +0800
Subject: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0866998c9a9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711052325.XAA12486@server.test.net>




Seems to me that the distinction that churches are exempt from taxes
partly hinges on their non-profit, or not-for-profit status.

Now it's nice for those who can get tax breaks, as we surely all could
do with a few tax breaks after the double and triple taxation effects
which Tim describes.

But really it does seem kind of artificial -- what is a church, who
gets to decide, and as TruthMonger said who gets to decide on which
church status gets revoked because of statements which annoy the rule
maker.

Can I be a church and not pay taxes too?  (eg. Can I claim to be a
member of `The Cult of the Dead Cow' or whatever and not pay taxes?)

Scientologists are a fine example of a "church" which is largely
profit motivated.

Even if you drew the line at non-profit organisations that is easily
manipulated -- non-profits can pay good wages, and siphon money out in
other creative ways.  (Like those TV evangelical Bible bashers with
their fleets of Rolls Royces who get found out and disgraced now and
then.)

The whole thing is a mess, loop holes everywhere, complicated rules
will get written, etc.

Now it is an interesting question as to whether it is a good idea to
encourage governments to tax churches or not.  Taxation is a weapon.
Are the churches doing anything useful to our cause?  I think not on
average... religious right helped fuel the CDA, and is busting for
another one (cf far right censorship woman cross posting from
fight-censorship).

Not taxing them is subsidising their activities.

Can we start a `church of crypto anarchy' and have people make tax
exempt donations to fund over throwing the state by undermining
governments ability to collect taxes?

Yeah, right.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Wed Nov  5 15:33:32 1997
From: jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:33:32 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711052226.XAA21798@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971105155515.18286d-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Jim Burnes wrote:
> > On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > >   Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized
> > > entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
> > > The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
> > > types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
> > > is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
> > >   Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
> > > Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
> > > becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.
> 
> > Ha!  This is pretty interesting.  Rather than the typical cypherpunk
> > approach of eliminating such inefficient and corrupting methods as
> > income taxation and tax exemption we are playing by their game.
> 
>   Taxation and exemptions are, conceptually, no different than a
> tribal agreement that those who bring home the deer will share
> with those who guard the campsite, and that the shaman who keeps
> the evil spirits at bay has to do neither.
>   When one strips the semantics from various cypherpunks posts, 
> there is usually an underlying agreement that there should be
> no 'free rides' and no 'oppressive burdens.' <-- generality>
>

Thank someones god/shaman/whatever that we don't live in a tribal
society.  The whole reason money was invented was so that we could
"buy" the services we needed.  The invention of the firearm was so
that anyone could protect the campsite.

Whenever tribes go beyond a few hundred/thousand members barter
becomes hopelessly inefficient and pretty shells/rocks/silver/gold
becomes the next best thing.  This becomes a civilization.  Hopefully
its a limited constitutional representative democracy.  Thats democracy
in the old sense of republic, not in the new sense which is newspeak for
"socialism".

Unfortunately the essense of money is not a subject that is taught
in grade schools, high schools or university economics courses for
that matter.  Prices are information that indicate demand/supply
and money is the packetized communication medium of free association.
Anyone know of any monetary theories based on communication theory?

Does income-side taxation then constitute a limitation on free
association?  Does it limit the people who you could cooperate
with to build a car?  Negotiate a deal?  Rent a hall so that you could
discuss politics?

Isnt that a breech of the 1st amendment?  Freedom of assembly?

Is income taxation an a-priori limitation on free speech and association?

Wow.  I've got to either lay off the caffiene or (tm) that theory.

>  
> > rather than bitch and moan about how the Churches are exempt, why
> > not rejoice in the fact that at least the churches are free from
> > taxation.  We are part of the way there.
> 
>   Revolutionary idea! Instead of calling for Churches to be subject
> to the same oppressive taxation as the rest of us, call for the rest
> of us to be given the same exemptions as Churches.
>   I vote Jim Burnes the honorary title of 'CypherPunks Chief Taxation
> Spokesperson' (Norman Vincent Peale Chapter).
> 
> > Or start your own church.  ;-)
> 
>   I agree.
> 

Disclaimer:

All of the above discussion has been strictly theoretical.  Any
imputed relation to Jim Burnes' theories and ideas are strictly
coincidental.

Even if this were really coming from Jim Burnes, I'm sure he would
not want to be the Chief Taxation Spokesman^h^h^hperson.

Jim Burnes

---
FWIP: Fun With Internet Pseudonyms
FWIF: Fun With Internet Forgery








From aleph at cco.caltech.edu  Wed Nov  5 16:08:56 1997
From: aleph at cco.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:08:56 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105154710.00ce3410@pop-server.caltech.edu>



At 09:23 AM 11/5/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>From: Lizard <lizard at mrlizard.com>:
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
>===========
>Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
>finally noticed something about Christians....
>Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
>(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments, which is a hell of a
>lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
>Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
>how to conduct a Passover service!  Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
>is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
>same as being "kind of" pregnant.
>
>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)
	Does that mean you expect others to say anti-semitic stuff or claim that
you are being anti-semitic.  I would go with the latter.  Are you orthodox?
 If not, what right do you have to bash conservative or reform jews?  If
you are, please tell your friends in Israel that those of us with families
who survived the death camps do not look kindly on their reinvention of
fascism.  It is all well and good to love the group you come from, but
especially if you are jewish, pay attention to history.  Have we not been
persecuted throughout history, how dare we, now that we have some measure
of power, go on to persecue others?  Think before you write please.
	On your other point, christians routinely break the _important_
commandments.  (the first two)  Go to any church and you will see no end to
the idols they set up to their various saints, gods, etc.  And they pray to
whatever saint they want, or mary, or jesus (a mere messenger, even if the
son of god, he ain't god) or whoever they feel like.  Whatever happenned to
'Thou shalt have no gods before me!'  


                             -Colin






From jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Wed Nov  5 16:44:14 1997
From: jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:44:14 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711052226.XAA21798@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971105171619.18286g-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Jim Burnes wrote:
> > The whole of HG Wells warning to society was that by systematically
> > altering the language, you alter the things that can be discussed.
> 

Woops.  I'm mixing up my ontological icons.  Obviously I meant to
say "George Orwell".  Probably confused the two because they both
started out being semi-socialists.  HG Wells being a member of
the Rhodes Roundtable thought it would promote social justice.
Later he came to the conclusion that they just wanted to control
the world like any power-mad group that knows whats best for us.

Orwell fought in the Spanish civil war for the socialists and
against the fascists.  

Later, he worked as a propagandist for the British ministry of truth
during WWII -- eventually seeing his folly and writing 1984.

----

this moment in history brought to you by:

The Hitler^h^h^h^hstory Channel
All Hitler^h^h^h^hstory, All the Time

we now bring you back to your regularly scheduled spam.

jvb






From jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Wed Nov  5 16:44:25 1997
From: jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:44:25 +0800
Subject: Crypto in Videoconferencing?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971105172700.18286h-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



anyone:

is anyone aware of a videoconferencing system that supports
strong crypto -- or any type of crypto for that matter?

jim burnes


-----
Jim Burnes
Security Software Engineer, SSDS Inc.
Denver, CO
Remove the n-o-s-p-a-m. from my email to respond
-----






From jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Wed Nov  5 16:45:44 1997
From: jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:45:44 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971105154710.00ce3410@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971105170326.18286f-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Colin A. Reed wrote:
> At 09:23 AM 11/5/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> >Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
> >finally noticed something about Christians....
> >Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
> >(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments, which is a hell of a
> >lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
> >Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
> >how to conduct a Passover service!  Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
> >is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
> >same as being "kind of" pregnant.
> >
> >(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)
> 	Does that mean you expect others to say anti-semitic stuff or claim that
> you are being anti-semitic.  I would go with the latter.  Are you orthodox?
>  If not, what right do you have to bash conservative or reform jews?  If
> you are, please tell your friends in Israel that those of us with families
> who survived the death camps do not look kindly on their reinvention of
> fascism.  It is all well and good to love the group you come from, but
> especially if you are jewish, pay attention to history.  Have we not been
> persecuted throughout history, how dare we, now that we have some measure
> of power, go on to persecue others?  Think before you write please.
> 	On your other point, christians routinely break the _important_
> commandments.  (the first two)  Go to any church and you will see no end to
> the idols they set up to their various saints, gods, etc.  And they pray to
> whatever saint they want, or mary, or jesus (a mere messenger, even if the
> son of god, he ain't god) or whoever they feel like.  Whatever happenned to
> 'Thou shalt have no gods before me!'  
> 

Well, Colin.  The idols you spoke of are simply transmogrified versions
of Adonis and Demeter from Roman paganism.  (I assume youre referring to
the Roman Catholic Church).

Having been a Roman Catholic and for some twenty years been an ex-catholic
I've spent years research the apparent transition from a Roman Senate/
Emperor dominated world to a Roman PaganJudeoChristian dominated world.
(at least until the reformation took hold).

Then England dominated the seas which was just an extension of the
Roman power center.

To some degree that is why the founding fathers were so adamant about
separation of church and state.  The last thing they wanted was another
theocracy to graft itself onto their new creation.

Of course, given the vagaries of entropy, the state eventually became
their religion.

Be careful what you wish for.  You may get it.

jim burnes







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov  5 17:22:40 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:22:40 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03110731b086a0585c13@[139.167.130.248]>



At 7:13 pm -0500 on 11/2/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV
> presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."

I'm curious about this...

Did DEFCON IV happen before, or after, the rump session of FC97 (February
26? 1997), when Jason Cronk talked about recursive auctions on geodesic
networks? Actually, now that I think about it, Ian Grigg did a talk about
the sell-side inverse of the same idea in the same session...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From iang at systemics.com  Wed Nov  5 17:39:55 1997
From: iang at systemics.com (Ian Grigg)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:39:55 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <34611C3B.60ACCF02@systemics.com>



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> At 7:13 pm -0500 on 11/2/97, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> > The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV
> > presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."
> 
> I'm curious about this...
> 
> Did DEFCON IV happen before, or after, the rump session of FC97 (February
> 26? 1997), when Jason Cronk talked about recursive auctions on geodesic
> networks? Actually, now that I think about it, Ian Grigg did a talk about
> the sell-side inverse of the same idea in the same session...

DEFCON IV was well before FC97.  This was an issue I was chasing Eric
Hughes on.  As far as I understand it, this was unpublished in any form,
just presented, but many people have saw it (must have been a big
conference :-).  If anyone knows any different, please let me know
(except, "get in touch with Eric" because that was not resultful).

-- 
iang                                      systemics.com

FP: 1189 4417 F202 5DBD  5DF3 4FCD 3685 FDDE on pgp.com






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov  5 17:40:20 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:40:20 +0800
Subject: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711060135.TAA22071@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:25:02 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd))

> Seems to me that the distinction that churches are exempt from taxes
> partly hinges on their non-profit, or not-for-profit status.

No, it stems from the fundamental democratic axiom of seperation of church
and state. If the churches pay taxes they aren't seperate. If the state
supports churches they aren't seperate.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From jmayorga at netscape.com  Wed Nov  5 17:53:17 1997
From: jmayorga at netscape.com (John Mayorga)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:53:17 +0800
Subject: Is mixmaster dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971030072414.7999D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <34611D52.922EC6CE@netscape.com>

Funny, I get a:

File Not found

The requested URL was not found on this server.

This server is under construction. Please go to http://www.thur.de and look
there for your link or send a mail to www at thur.de.


John E. Mayorga


David E. Smith wrote:

> On 29 Oct 1997, Russell Nelson wrote:
>
> > Lance hasn't updated his mixmaster page in over a year.  Is mixmaster
> > dead?
>
> On the contrary. http://www.thur.de/ulf/mix has the latest Mixmaster stuff.
>
> dave
>
> --
>
> Today's pseudorandom quote:
> I'm on crack!  (http://www.rc5.cyberian.org/ for info.)
>
> David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
> Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)




begin:          vcard
fn:             John Mayorga
n:              Mayorga;John
org:            Netscape Communications Corp.
adr;dom:        ;;501 E. Middlefield Road, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA;9;;;
email;internet: jmayorga at netscape.com
tel;work:       4556
x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0
x-mozilla-html: FALSE
version:        2.1
end:            vcard


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From billy at bingo.edu  Thu Nov  6 10:06:45 1997
From: billy at bingo.edu (billy at bingo.edu)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:06:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Home Buisness Opportunity
Message-ID: <199711063319HAA34270@post.ix.netcom.com>


Subj:	 Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox everyday?  I am!!
Date:	97-10-19 21:33:41 EDT
From:	80285881 at prodigy.com
To:	You at aol.com


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the Proceeds!

Hello!

My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use my account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy subject line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm going to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly mailed four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a small fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks, my P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills up an extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am stunned by all the money that keeps rolling in!

My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a substantial downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with 40% down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be prepared to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count your money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need to be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can open an envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on your way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how easy it is.  If I can do this, so can you!

The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                          This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
         PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank!  

This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow the easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come true! When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!
Thousands of people have used this program to:
    -  Raise capital to start their own business
    -  Pay off debts
    -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

This is your chance, don't pass it up!

             ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
              ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
             ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next to nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you will increase your business building your downline and selling the products (reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (via your computer).

The products in this program are a series of four business and financial reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail" will include:

  * $5.00 cash
  * The name and number of the report they are ordering
  * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!  The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business anywhere! 

                           FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
                       BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                   ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

This is what you MUST do:
1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

     *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
        REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
        RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose 
        name appears on the list next to the report.
  
     *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
        reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save them
        on your computer and resell them.

     *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four reports. 
         Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send 
         to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next 
     to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is
     instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the
     majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this works, you'll 
     also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this method 
     has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

    a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

    b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement and 
         remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
         made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50 grand!

    c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

    d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

    e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

    f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

       Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save 
     it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this 
     letter.
  
4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
     avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
     You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
     can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report
     they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
     ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
     with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't
     advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------
***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
Notes:
-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
-  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper  
-  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an assumed "company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to millions of people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
__________________________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
             MF Group, Inc.
             3550 Centerville HWY Suite 107-145
             Lithonia, Ga  30058
__________________________________________________________________
REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
            The SRF Enterprises
            4117 Jami Lane
            Lithonia, Ga 30058
 __________________________________________________________________
REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
            FML
            P.O. Box 927603
            San Diego, Ca  92192-0603
__________________________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
           Marico
           2350 Spring Road
           #30-194
           Smyrna, GA 30080
__________________________________________________________________
         --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
         --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5...........................................$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS        ----------->$55,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!

 *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
     the directions accurately.

 *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
    the orders start coming in because:

    When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
    product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
    18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
    also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state 
    that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
    instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

 *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business!

 *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

     This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
          Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

     My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM.
           Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

    The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
           Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

    Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
         Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

     This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
           Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET 
STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!


For 52,000,000 E-mail addressess visit our website at:

http://www.edgetone.com/industry2/resellers/resell553.html






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov  5 18:57:11 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:57:11 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199711060252.UAA22237@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 07:47 MET
> From: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster at as-node.jena.thur.de>
> Subject: Libertaria in Cyberspace

> For a truly free communications medium we must have strong cryptography.

Seems to me that this is false. To have a truly free communcations medium we
must have no censors. The very fact that crypto is involved guarantees that
it isn't free. The use of crypto itself is a form of censorship if you don't
have the key.

> This is a given.

No, it isn't.

> Anonymity cannot be insured without strong cryptography

Tell that to publius. 200+ years later and we still fight over who wrote
what and they didn't even use a simple substitution cypher. The secret to
anonymity is the same as keeping a secret, those who know keep their mouths
shut.

> and the freedom of remailers or similar mechanisms to operate
> unobstructed.

How is crypto going to keep them from kicking the turning the phones off,
turning the power off, and kicking the front door in? It isn't.

> Speech is never truly free unless it can be anonymous if
> the author so chooses.

Speech can't be truly free as long as any party can censor the traffic.

> Who wants to espouse an opinion which will get
> them flogged, either figuratively or literally, by their neighbors, their
> government, or in some cases even their family? 

Then be so kind as to explain people who are intentionaly trying to force
legal cases in order to challenge standards? This is a clear 1-to-1 mapping
to flogging (per your example).

> In my opinion, Mr. May is correct when he says that physical space is too
> small and too exposed to outside intervention.

Unfortunately cyberspace can't exist without meatspace.

> Yes, cyberspace does look much more promising. 

Only if you don't have a clue as to the technical, social and economic milieu
that it exists within. Show me a way to run a remailer program without a
computer which exists in meatspace and your proposition might work.

> The amount of "space" in
> cyberspace is unbelievably large.

You have a small imagination. The amount of space in cyberspace in no more
than the sum total of all the hard drives in use on the network or network
accessible at any given time. It's measured in terabytes but that is hardly
unbelievable.

> The amount of data I can store on one
> gigabyte of hard drive is incredible by conventional standards.

Your standards are pretty low when one considers that the largest databases
on the planet are measured in terabytes (1,000 gig's).

> And space is very cheap
> in cyberspace.

Really? Then please be so kind as to pay my monthy bills related to Internet
access. I assure you they are far from 'cheap'.

> A truly free communications medium must allow its users to be anonymous. 

No, it must provide no moderation on traffic. All anonymous access buys one
is reasonable deniability, a far cry from free communcations; and in fact
fundamentaly unrelated to the concept of free speech.

> That an opinion is unpopular does not make that opinion wrong or invalid.

Doesn't make it correct either, the proof is in the pudding.

> That an author does not want his "true name" attached to an opinion does
> not diminish the value of that opinion.

In fact the validity of a thesis should in no way ever rest on the
personality or reputation capital, it should rest solely on what can be
proven and tested about it.

[other stuff deleted]

> Tim May is correct: Libertaria will thrive in cyberspace. 

Only in your collective wet dreams. Libertaria as described by Tim,
yourself, and others will never come to pass in that form.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov  5 19:13:42 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:13:42 +0800
Subject: IRS reform bill going strong [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711060309.VAA22343@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> IRS Reform Bill Skates Through House
> 
>     [INLINE]
>    
>    WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Nov. 5) -- A bill to reform the Internal
>    Revenue Service skated through the House of Representatives today on
>    an overwhelming 426-4 vote.
>    
>    The measure picked up the support of Democrats after its sponsors made
>    key changes that drew the approval of the Clinton Administration.
>    
>    The most significant change would preserve the president's power to
>    appoint the IRS commissioner. The original version of the bill would
>    have transferred that duty to an independent board.
>    
>    The bill's centerpiece is an 11-member board made up mostly of private
>    citizens that would oversee the IRS and help manage its long-term
>    projects.
>    
>    Bill sponsor Rob Portman (R-Ohio) said the measure marked "the first
>    time in 45 years that we have attempted as a Congress to enact
>    fundamental reform."






From anon at anon.efga.org  Wed Nov  5 19:40:32 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:40:32 +0800
Subject: [news] TV station sets cybersex sting
Message-ID: <2e0625753af7fff4e7937817f8607e96@anon.efga.org>



>*** TV station sets cybersex sting

>With cyperporn and cybersex ranking as sensational news items on
>local TV stations, Fox's Los Angeles outlet has taken the trend a
>step further by ensnaring adult sexual predators. KTTV's Fox 11 News
>at 10 worked with a 21-year-old woman posing as a 14-year-old to
>conduct cybersting operations that led to the arrests of five men.
>KTTV used the unnamed woman as bait, having her enter online chat
>rooms where she was immediately targeted. The station filmed the
>online seductions as well as the arrests of the men, who included an
>attorney, a doctor, a retired Army officer and an investigator for
>the Dept. of Labor. See story at
>http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5777644-464

And then they tricked a real 14 year old girl into meeting with them and
having sex so that maybe, if they really, really tried very hard, they 
could argue that a real crime had been committed, right?

Didn't think so. 






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 20:21:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:21:05 +0800
Subject: Government goons force Goddard to recant
Message-ID: <199711060407.FAA05681@basement.replay.com>



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Time to add a new horseman: "conspiracy theory-spreading libertarians"

>      Goddard says he wanted to promote libertarian ideology by
>      encouraging distrust of the government.

It's amazing how a few minutes in a cell with Jim Bell can help
people see the error of their ways.







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 20:24:10 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:24:10 +0800
Subject: IRS reform bill going strong [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711060406.FAA05588@basement.replay.com>



Jim Choate wrote:
> > IRS Reform Bill Skates Through House
> >    The bill's centerpiece is an 11-member board made up mostly of private
> >    citizens that would oversee the IRS and help manage its long-term
> >    projects.
> >
> >    Bill sponsor Rob Portman (R-Ohio) said the measure marked "the first
> >    time in 45 years that we have attempted as a Congress to enact
> >    fundamental reform."

Gee, and the IRS is being put in the hands of private citizens just
before the Y2K problem comes to a head.
Hhmmm...







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 20:25:18 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:25:18 +0800
Subject: A Constitutionalist Recants
Message-ID: <199711060410.FAA05997@basement.replay.com>



Law & Order has showed me the error of my ways.

After watching tonight's show, I realized that those who 'hide behind
the Constitution' are all murderers.

I was so proud of the judge who made his speech about supporting the
concepts behind the constitution, and then was able to see his error
in not throwing it out the window because of a single dead person.
I cheered when the judge dismissed a juror for quoting the founding
fathers.

God bless what used to be America!

ReformedConstitutionalistMonger
"Sure, Dan Quayle was an idiot for getting all worked up over a
 Murphy Brown episode, but this is different...isn't it?"






From phelix at vallnet.com  Wed Nov  5 20:52:42 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:52:42 +0800
Subject: [news] TV station sets cybersex sting
In-Reply-To: <2e0625753af7fff4e7937817f8607e96@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3465472c.118146292@128.2.84.191>



On 5 Nov 1997 22:24:09 -0600, Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:

>
>>*** TV station sets cybersex sting
>
>>With cyperporn and cybersex ranking as sensational news items on
>>local TV stations, Fox's Los Angeles outlet has taken the trend a
>>step further by ensnaring adult sexual predators. KTTV's Fox 11 News
>>at 10 worked with a 21-year-old woman posing as a 14-year-old to
>>conduct cybersting operations that led to the arrests of five men.
>>KTTV used the unnamed woman as bait, having her enter online chat
>>rooms where she was immediately targeted. The station filmed the
>>online seductions as well as the arrests of the men, who included an
>>attorney, a doctor, a retired Army officer and an investigator for
>>the Dept. of Labor. See story at
>>http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5777644-464
>
>And then they tricked a real 14 year old girl into meeting with them and
>having sex so that maybe, if they really, really tried very hard, they 
>could argue that a real crime had been committed, right?
>
>Didn't think so. 

And what will happen in court if these guys claim that they assumed that
the girl was really an older person pertending to be a 14 yr. old girl and
that they were just engaging in a little fantasy play?  Or have
thoughtcrimes finally become a reality?

-- Phelix






From phelix at vallnet.com  Wed Nov  5 20:52:42 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:52:42 +0800
Subject: PGP's SMTP enforcer and ISPs
Message-ID: <346647dc.118322082@128.2.84.191>



Recently, my ISP became the victim of spammers.  Their response, like many
other ISPs, is to block port 25 for all their dialup users.  This means
that all outgoing email must be routed through their mail server.

Now that PGP has an SMTP enforcers, and that others will eventually follow
with a S/MIME equivalent, we are literally an executive order away from an
effective (if not 100% complete) ban on "inappropriate" encryption on email
communications.

All it would take is a national emergency, like the next war against Saddam
Hussein, or a law that does not treat ISPs like common carriers and holds
them liable for what their users do.  

And the worst thing of all is that most people won't even notice it.  Hell,
I was the only person on my end to notice that my ISP had blocked port 25.

-- Phelix, "perfect paranoia is perfect awareness"






From fasc at mxtro.com  Thu Nov  6 13:10:14 1997
From: fasc at mxtro.com (fasc at mxtro.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:10:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First American Corp.
Message-ID: <199711062110.NAA05627@toad.com>


First American Scientific Corporation has developed new technology that
we feel is of global significance to problems arising from human waste
disposal activity.  Full details are available at
http://www.mxtro.com/fasc  .


The technology, which is built into ourKinetic Disintegratioin System, is called 
Kinetic Disintegration Technology (KDT) and incorporates standing 
sound waves and kinetic energy to disintegrate virtually all non-metallic
substances into powders as fine as -400 mesh.  This means that previously
problematic recyclables like rubber (tires), gypsum (drywall), plastics,
insulation, glass, and bio-solid wastes can be cost-effectively
"micronized" and separated for re-use as industrial raw materials.


This information will be of particular interest to investors, municipal
engineers, agricultural research facilities, waste disposal engineers,
recycled product developers, and others who have an interest in
solving the crises being generated from worldwide waste disposal.

Our apologies if you view this information as intrusive, but First American
Scientific Corporation will not contribute to global deforestation by 
disseminating information through printed materials.  We feel this
technology is of the highest global priority.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter.

Investor Relations
First American Scientific Corporation
NASD EBB:FASC

Please reply with "remove" in the subject line for easy
and permanent removal.





From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Wed Nov  5 21:21:05 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:21:05 +0800
Subject: Springer/Gates Merger
Message-ID: <eYSXr9I18sNRTO/NDnnmrw==@bureau42.ml.org>



> CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS:
> [CNN, Bienfait, Saskatchewan] BAR OWNERS at the Coaldust Saloon,
> in violation of Canadian bartender/customer confidentiality laws,
> revealed details of a planned merger between Micro$oft and the
> Jerry Springer Show.

> "The success of Terminal Man
> showed that the future was in snuff-flicks, and Police Chases was
> the natural movement of that theme into the trend toward Real TV."

Let's see...if the police with the TV camera in their car get in
a chase with another vehicle, their chances of getting on primetime
TV increase in proportion to the threat posed to all involved,
including innocent bystanders.
So if the 'perp' kills or gets killed, the police officer gets to
sing on 'Star Search'? If the TV camera on the police cruiser gets
a particularly gory shot of the fleeing vehicle splattering a child
in a crosswalk, the cop gets a free dining room set?

I can hardly wait until Jane and Joe Public get their chance to
participate in an InterActive snuff-flick in WebWorld.

"It will never happen." you say?"
Like the Great Evil of Alcohol will never be taken out of the hands
of murderous criminals who make outrageous profits, and put into
the hands of governement, who makes an equally outrageous profit.
Like the government will not use their armed power to out-muscle
the scar-faced, pug-nosed thugs in the dark underworld, to take
over control of the Great Evil of Gambling.

Trust me when I say that I am not just being cynical about the
Sheeple (TM) in saying this.
If I had a chance for a shot at Louis J. Freeh on the 
Pay-per-InterAct Snuff Channel...

SnuffMonger







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov  5 22:30:37 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:30:37 +0800
Subject: Raids on Cypherpunks?
In-Reply-To: <199711060410.FAA05997@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b08703c219d6@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:10 PM -0700 11/5/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Law & Order has showed me the error of my ways.
>
>After watching tonight's show, I realized that those who 'hide behind
>the Constitution' are all murderers.


Yep, more pre-dawn, no knock raids.

Lists of "members of Sons of Liberty" are seized.

Apparently the First Amendment is in suspension. At least in Hollywood.

Gee, and the grounds for the search warrant were that the Internet was used
to publish instructions for converting a Mac to full auto. (Gee, and I
thought everyone knew how to file down the sear on these old open bolt
pieces of shit?)

If I publish these widely-available instructions, will the Cypherpunks be
raided?

(One can only hope. I'm getting tired of setting my traps every night and
having no BATFags to show for it.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov  5 23:34:09 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:34:09 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711052249.QAA06301@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b08712c818ca@[207.167.93.63]>



At 11:58 AM -0700 11/5/97, John Kelsey wrote:

>I know.  Let me make it clear that I am not at all
>interested in banning private testing, coercing insurance
>companies or anyone else into agreements they don't want to
>make, etc.  I am saying it would be nice if I could buy
>insurance against the results of the tests before I took
>them.  The problem is, I can't see a really workable way to
>do this, because there's no way to keep people from taking
>the test beforehand.

That's my point. Since there can be no way to determine if someone has had
themselves tested, such "wouldn't it be nice" scenarios are meaningless.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From gnu at toad.com  Wed Nov  5 23:58:53 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:58:53 +0800
Subject: Crypto '98: Call for Papers
Message-ID: <199711060742.XAA02312@toad.com>



                               CRYPTO  '98

            August 23-27, 1998, Santa Barbara, California, USA

                             CALL FOR PAPERS 

                           GENERAL INFORMATION
Original papers on all technical aspects of cryptology are solicited for 
submission to Crypto '98, the Eighteenth Annual IACR Crypto Conference. 
Crypto '98 is organized by the International Association for Cryptologic 
Research (IACR), in cooperation with the IEEE Computer Society Technical 
Committee on Security and Privacy, and the Computer Science Department 
of the University of California, Santa Barbara.  For more information, 
access http://www.iacr.org/

                        INSTRUCTIONS FOR AUTHORS
Authors are strongly encouraged to submit their papers electronically. A 
detailed description of the electronic submission procedure will appear 
by December 1, 1997 at http://www.iacr.org/conferences/c98/submit.html. 
Electronic submissions must conform to this procedure in order to be 
considered.  Authors unable to submit electronically are invited to send 
a cover letter and 22 copies of an anonymous paper (double-sided copies 
preferred) to the Program Chair at the postal address below.  Submissions 
must be received by the Program Chair on or before February 16, 1998 (or 
postmarked by February 7, 1998, and sent via airmail or courier). Late 
submissions and submissions by fax will not be considered. The cover 
letter should contain the paper's title and the names and affiliations 
of the authors, and should identify the contact author including e-mail 
and postal addresses. 

Only original research contributions will be considered. Submissions must 
not substantially duplicate work that any of the authors have published 
elsewhere or have submitted in parallel to any other conference or 
workshop that has proceedings. The paper must be anonymous, with no 
author names, affiliations, acknowledgments or obvious references. It 
should begin with a title, a short abstract, and a list of key words, 
and its introduction should summarize the contributions of the paper at 
a level appropriate for a non-specialist reader. The paper should be at 
most 12 pages excluding the bibliography and clearly marked appendices, 
and at most 20 pages in total, using at least 11-point font and reason-
able margins. Committee members are not required to read appendices, so 
the paper should be intelligible without them.   Submissions not meeting 
these guidelines risk rejection without consideration of their merits.
Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to authors by April 
30, 1998. Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their
paper will be presented at the conference.

                          CONFERENCE PROCEEDINGS
Proceedings will be published in Springer-Verlag's Lecture Notes in 
Computer Science and  will be available at the conference.   Clear 
instructions about the preparation of a final proceedings version will 
be sent to the authors of accepted papers. The final copies of the 
accepted papers will be due on June 5, 1998.

SUBMISSION: February 16, 1998 
ACCEPTANCE: April 30, 1998 
PROCEEDINGS VERSION: June 5, 1998

PROGRAM COMMITTEE:
Dan Boneh, Stanford University, USA
Don Coppersmith, IBM Research, USA
Yair Frankel, CertCo, USA
Matt Franklin, AT&T Labs - Research, USA
Johan Hastad, Royal Institute of Technology, Sweden
Lars Knudsen, University of Bergen, Norway
Hugo Krawczyk, Chair, Technion, Israel and IBM Research, USA
Ueli Maurer, ETH Zurich, Switzerland
Alfred Menezes, Auburn University, USA
Andrew Odlyzko, AT&T Labs - Research, USA
Rafail Ostrovsky, Bellcore, USA
Jean-Jacques Quisquater, Universite de Louvain, Belgium
Tal Rabin, IBM Research, USA
Matt Robshaw, RSA Laboratories, USA
Phillip Rogaway, University of California at Davis, USA
Rainer Rueppel, $R^3$ Security Engineering AG, Switzerland
Kazue Sako, NEC, Japan
Dan Simon, Microsoft Research, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo, USA

ADVISORY MEMBERS:
Burt Kaliski, chair Crypto'97, RSA Laboratories, USA 
Michael J. Wiener, chair Crypto'99, Entrust Technologies, Canada
Joe Kilian, electronic submissions, NEC Research Institute, USA

ADDRESS FOR NON-ELECTRONIC SUBMISSIONS:
Hugo Krawczyk, Program Chair, Crypto '98
Department of Electrical Engineering
Technion - Israel Institute of Technology 
Technion City, Haifa 32000
ISRAEL
Phone: (972) 4-829-4652    Fax:   (972) 4-832-3041 
E-mail: crypto98 at ee.technion.ac.il

FOR OTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: 
Andrew Klapper, General Chair, Crypto '98
Department of Computer Science
763h Anderson Hall
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506  USA
Phone: (1) 606-257-3961 Fax:   (1) 606-323-1971
E-mail: crypto98 at iacr.org

STIPENDS: A limited number of stipends are available to those unable 
to obtain funding to attend the conference. Students whose papers are 
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to 
apply if such assistance is needed. Requests for stipends should be 
addressed to the General Chair.






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Nov  6 00:19:00 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:19:00 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711052249.QAA06301@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <199711060003.AAA12962@server.test.net>




John Kelsey <kelsey at plnet.net> writes:
> Suppose there is some genetic disease that kills its victims on
> their 31st birthday, unless they get a $1,000,000 treatment first.
> Before I have taken the test for this disease, I have to accept a
> certain risk--if I find out I have the disease, I have to raise a
> million dollars in the next few months.  After I have taken the test
> and gotten back the results, there's no more risk involved (assuming
> the test is perfect)--I either have the disease or I don't.  

The insurer can't determine whether you've taken the test.  The
insurer may insist on the test anyway or offer you unfavourable odds,
basically assuming you have privately tested and found positive
otherwise you wouldn't be refusing to have the test.  (A variation of
the `he must have something to hide' theme).  Unless you can afford
the premium for withholding this test, you're stuck.

> Before the test, though, insurance might be useful--I could
> essentially place a bet with someone that I had the disease--I pay
> $1, and get a million dollars back if my test comes back
> positive--just enough to pay for my treatment.

The insurance company would have no financial incentive to take on
such risks -- I reckon they'd sooner let the wanna-be customer die.
Nasty, but it's reality.

> >The alternative is not pretty: banning private testing
> >(how?) and forcing insurance companies to cover all
> >applicants for all conditions at a fixed rate.
> 
> I know.  Let me make it clear that I am not at all
> interested in banning private testing, coercing insurance
> companies or anyone else into agreements they don't want to
> make, etc.  I am saying it would be nice if I could buy
> insurance against the results of the tests before I took
> them.  The problem is, I can't see a really workable way to
> do this, because there's no way to keep people from taking
> the test beforehand.

I reckon your only option would be charity.  If these $1,000,000
treatment 1:1,000,000 odds genetically testable diseases are rare
(1:1mil is rare), perhaps a charity would be able to cover the costs.

The increased choice in insurance would ensure cheaper medical care
for all.  A deregulated medical profession with third party rating
services rather than top down government services should reduce prices
dramatically also.  Same for medical drugs, third party ratings.  Buy
your ratings service.

And being a hard line anarcho capitalist, I draw the conclusion that
if you can't afford to keep yourself alive, that is your problem.
(Heartless ain't it:-) Aside from comments about evolution in action
(perhaps I personally don't want to fund propogating these genetic
defects, and that is my choice), my suggestion is that such cases
would have to be met by charity.

A charity could also refuse to help people who hadn't donated, if
it chose.

I bet it would work too, and a lot more efficiently than the
government regulated setup now.

Heck I might even donate to it, with the savings I'd make from
the breakup of the medical cartel.

(UK is as socialist as it comes with medicine, and your taxes reflect
this.)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Nov  6 00:25:30 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:25:30 +0800
Subject: Raids on Cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971106002046.00694adc@cnw.com>



Tim May wrote:

>(One can only hope. I'm getting tired of setting my traps every night and
>having no BATFags to show for it.)
.....................................................


You know, a long time ago (in '93) when L..D.(etweiler) was provoking the
list with his various "Secret Operations" against the "Big Macs" on the
list, you (Tim) remarked that you half expected to hear one day that he had
been shot and arrested (or was it shot and killed) for his bizarre behavior.

Ironically, I wonder if it will not be yourself, who one day is found under
those circumstances.

(Not that your behavior is bizarre, or anything).

    ..
Blanc






From net at we-deliver.net  Thu Nov  6 16:29:43 1997
From: net at we-deliver.net (net at we-deliver.net)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:29:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Your Boardroom Info Package...
Message-ID: <199711062255.QAB07248@mercury.we-deliver.net>


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From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Nov  6 16:33:12 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:33:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ooops....!
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.971107012952.meddle@adept.co.za>
Message-ID: <199711070017.AAA11760@server.test.net>



meddle at adept.co.za writes:
> That should have been cypherpunks-request at toad.com ...

Actually toad.com is no longer the active list; it is just forwarding
posts back to the real list(s) to ease migration.  Subscribing to
toad, you'll get some small fraction of real traffic.

You ought to subscribe to one of:

cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
cypherpunks at algebra.com
cypherpunks at ssz.com

Which theoretically all contain same traffic.

Adam





From pgill at ultramax.net  Thu Nov  6 18:19:31 1997
From: pgill at ultramax.net (pgill at ultramax.net)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:19:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Advertisment: Free ISP
Message-ID: <199711070219.SAA06594@toad.com>


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From adam at homeport.org  Thu Nov  6 02:40:48 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:40:48 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711060003.AAA12962@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711061032.FAA08872@homeport.org>



Many insurance companies with Mutual in their name (Liberty Mutual is
large in the Northeastern US) get that from being founded as mutual
insurance companies, where you pay to be part of the mutual insurance
group, and when you get sick, injured, etc, the group pays money
towords your treatment.  I think it broke down with increases in
mobility.  They were implicitly based on reputation capital, and were
not highly fraud resistant.

Adam's suggestion of a charity which only pays for the treatment of
those who donate thus recreates an old system.

Adam

Adam Back wrote:

| And being a hard line anarcho capitalist, I draw the conclusion that
| if you can't afford to keep yourself alive, that is your problem.
| (Heartless ain't it:-) Aside from comments about evolution in action
| (perhaps I personally don't want to fund propogating these genetic
| defects, and that is my choice), my suggestion is that such cases
| would have to be met by charity.
| 
| A charity could also refuse to help people who hadn't donated, if
| it chose.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de  Thu Nov  6 02:48:49 1997
From: lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:48:49 +0800
Subject: SSL Browser info
In-Reply-To: <199711052259.OAA29112@toad.com>
Message-ID: <slrn6637rm.r8.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>



* Gary Howland wrote:
>	http://www.hotlava.com/demos/ssl-query.html
>which displays the SSL version and cipher types of your browser.

Respond: 'Unknown, try again'.

https attempt offer an outdated self cetificate. :-(






From lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de  Thu Nov  6 02:50:58 1997
From: lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:50:58 +0800
Subject: Is mixmaster dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971030072414.7999D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <slrn66380p.r8.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>



* John Mayorga wrote:
>This server is under construction. Please go to http://www.thur.de and look
>there for your link or send a mail to www at thur.de.

www.thur.de was damaged last week. Should be up again this morning. The data
on the server is somewhat outdated, because the backup is somewhat old.

The admin seems to be a good hacker. He followed the directive to try
everything forbitten: 'Do not forget backups.'






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Nov  6 02:58:23 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:58:23 +0800
Subject: Tim May Guilty in OKC Bombing!
Message-ID: <199711061041.LAA15555@basement.replay.com>



~
Prosecution tries to link May, McVeigh through literature

BIENFAIT (CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS) -- 
Drunks testifying Wednesday in the Oklahoma City bombing trial 
said they found anti-government literature in the home of 
defendant Tim C. May that was similar to that found in the car 
of Timothy McVeigh.
A shitfaced Lying Fuck Louis J. Freeh said, "Pro-constitution,
anti-government, it's all the same crap."
...
One document referred to the government raid on the Branch
Davidian compound near Waco, Texas, and contained the Thomas
Jefferson quote: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from 
time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." 
FBI agents snorting cocaine in the bathroom were heard to say
that they were looking into the possibility that John Doe #3
might, in fact, be Thomas Jefferson.
...
The government has argued that McVeigh and May were
incensed over how federal agents handled the 1993
clash with the Branch Davidian cult in Waco in which 80 cult
members died.	
Lying Nazi Cunt Janet Reno testified that, to her knowledge, 
May and McVeigh were the only two people in the US who were 
angered by the FBI murder of men, women and children.
...
One document seized in Timothy C. May's house was
a copy of a March 15, 1993, letter published in The Wall Street
Journal that referred to Waco and "equates federal agents with
Nazi SS agents exterminating Jews in World War II." 
When prosecutors entered this as evidence, May broke down on
his bar stool and confessed.
"When they introduced the evidence that I read The Wall Street
Journal," May told Canadian Nutly News reportwhores, "I knew it
was only a matter of time until they linked me to Jim Bell, who
has been learning how to read from prison copies of the newpaper."
...
Rumors that May ratted out other readers of The Wall Street Journal
in return for a double-shot of Tequila could not be confirmed.
All political figures queried by Nutly News reportwhores denied
reading the terrorist rag, including its publishers.
The editor of The Wall Street Journal vehemently denied rumors 
that May had secretly named him as an avid reader of his own paper,
claiming, "Hell, I can't even read." He also added that Tim May
and Jim Bell were known to be Janet Reno's secret lovers, though
admitting that they did not fuck her with their own dicks.

Tomorrow: FBI investigating reports that a majority of Cypherpunks
  mailing list subscribers used letters of the English alphabet
  that were 'similar' to those used by May and Bell.






From jk at stallion.ee  Thu Nov  6 03:23:37 1997
From: jk at stallion.ee (Jyri Kaljundi)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:23:37 +0800
Subject: SSL Browser info
In-Reply-To: <199711052259.OAA29112@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971106130526.15882G-100000@nebula>



On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Gary Howland wrote:

> 	http://www.hotlava.com/demos/ssl-query.html
> 
> which displays the SSL version and cipher types of your browser.

Which for me shows only Unknown - try again in the white window.

Jyri Kaljundi
jk at stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/







From fed at dev.null  Thu Nov  6 03:26:55 1997
From: fed at dev.null (Fed's Bait Shop)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:26:55 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <199711061118.FAA17251@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>



Fred wrote:
> Mix wrote:
> 
> > (*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
> > The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
>                            ^^^ (typo)
> 
> Could you tell me the best way to kill a policeman, politician, or
> world leader, without using a gun?

Of course, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am referring 
only to doing so as a member of a freedom-fighting organization
whose aims are fully supported by any government who might want
to prosecute me for asking a hypothetical question of this 
nature.
And, naturally, I would only be interested in those methods of
killing that would result in the deaths of only those who are
the evil enemies of any government who might want to prosecute
me for asking a hypothetical question of this nature.

Fred







From tri-max at t-1net.com  Thu Nov  6 20:08:10 1997
From: tri-max at t-1net.com (tri-max at t-1net.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:08:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ad: For Dog Owners Only
Message-ID: <199711070352.VAA01546@ryan.t-1net.com>


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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Nov  6 04:32:01 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:32:01 +0800
Subject: Mitnick Rings Bell
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971106122235.00a31158@pop.pipeline.com>



 6 November 1997, Digital Cellular Report:

 U.S. government takes hard line on Mitnick. US Hacker Pleads for Help 

 A US 'hacker'- Kevin David  Mitnick - has issued a plea for financial help to 
 fight his defence case through his lawyer, Donald  C Randolph of Santa Monica, 
 USA. Through Randolph, Mitnick is claiming that the US government is
seeking to 
 make an example of him for the possession of unauthorised cellular access
codes. 
 The issue is particularly important in the North American market where
analogue, 
 rather than digital cellular, is the norm. 

 In one of the most amazing claims, Mitnick claims to have been kept in solitary
 confinement for 23 hours a day, naked in a freezing air-conditioned cell
for eight
 months and led to the showers in chains. Perhaps the most puzzling aspect
to the
 whole case is the fact that while the US government has never sought to prove
 that Mitnick profited from his 'hacking' activities - although he could
certainly have
 done so by 'selling' stolen airtime to third parties. Instead they claim he
caused
 losses in excess of $80 million. Kevin certainly appears to be paying the
price for
 his nefarious deeds having already spent nearly two years in custody during
which
 time he has been prohibited from any access to wireless communications
 equipment, computer hardware or computer software. It's difficult to know
 exactly which side is the more paranoid since Mitnick is claiming that his
fate is
 part of a deliberate US government plot to divert scrutiny away from its plans
 concerning the control and regulation of both telecommunications and the
Internet.
 The case would seem to present a most powerful argument for the US to switch
 more swiftly over to digital cellular where 'hacking' is far more difficult. 






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Nov  6 04:59:42 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:59:42 +0800
Subject: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711060135.TAA22071@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711060852.IAA00795@server.test.net>



Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> > Seems to me that the distinction that churches are exempt from taxes
> > partly hinges on their non-profit, or not-for-profit status.
> 
> No, it stems from the fundamental democratic axiom of seperation of church
> and state. If the churches pay taxes they aren't seperate. 

I pay taxes, I am separated from the state.

> If the state supports churches they aren't seperate.

If the state doesn't tax churches they are subsidizing them relative
to other sorts of organisations.  This is surely a form of support.

Adam






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Nov  6 05:17:31 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:17:31 +0800
Subject: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711061315.HAA23838@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:52:15 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)) (fwd)

> Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:
> > Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> > > Seems to me that the distinction that churches are exempt from taxes
> > > partly hinges on their non-profit, or not-for-profit status.
> > 
> > No, it stems from the fundamental democratic axiom of seperation of church
> > and state. If the churches pay taxes they aren't seperate. 
> 
> I pay taxes, I am separated from the state.

Do you hold US citizenship? If so then, no, your assertion of seperation
from the state is incorrect. It's that pesky "We the people..." thing.
If you want to be considered seperate from the US *AND* you don't want to
pay US taxes then renounce your US citizenship and move to another country
*OR* figure out a way to become your own 1 person church.

Like it or not that's the way it works.

> > If the state supports churches they aren't seperate.
> 
> If the state doesn't tax churches they are subsidizing them relative
> to other sorts of organisations.  This is surely a form of support.

Subsidize means to pay, the government does not pay as a rule pay the
churches anything, that would violate the seperation clause as well.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From eay at cryptsoft.com  Thu Nov  6 06:02:19 1997
From: eay at cryptsoft.com (Eric Young)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:02:19 +0800
Subject: SSL Browser info
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971106130526.15882G-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971106233321.905P-100000@pandora.cryptsoft.com>




On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Gary Howland wrote:
> > 	http://www.hotlava.com/demos/ssl-query.html
> > which displays the SSL version and cipher types of your browser.
> Which for me shows only Unknown - try again in the white window.

If you have SSLeay 0.8.1, run
ssleay s_server -port xxxx -www

and when you connect to the port, it will return a page like
---
s_server -www 
Ciphers supported in s_server binary
SSLv3:RC4-SHA                  SSLv3:RC4-MD5         
SSLv3:EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA     
SSLv3:EDH-DSS-DES-CBC3-SHA     SSLv3:DES-CBC3-SHA
SSLv3:IDEA-CBC-MD5             
SSLv3:EDH-RSA-DES-CBC-SHA      SSLv3:EDH-DSS-DES-CBC-SHA
SSLv3:DES-CBC-SHA              
SSLv2:RC4-64-MD5               SSLv2:DES-CBC3-MD5
SSLv2:DES-CBC-MD5              
SSLv2:IDEA-CBC-MD5             SSLv2:RC2-CBC-MD5              SSLv2:RC4-MD5                  
SSLv3:EXP-EDH-RSA-DES-CBC      SSLv3:EXP-EDH-DSS-DES-CBC-SHA
SSLv3:EXP-DES-CBC-SHA          
SSLv3:EXP-RC2-CBC-MD5          SSLv3:EXP-RC4-MD5
SSLv2:EXP-RC2-CBC-MD5          
SSLv2:EXP-RC4-MD5              
---
Ciphers common between both SSL end points:
EXP-RC2-CBC-MD5
---
Reused, SSLv3, Cipher is EXP-RC2-CBC-MD5
SSL-Session:
    Cipher    : EXP-RC2-CBC-MD5
    Session-ID: 846612DBD344FBD663A000A621BD80C19786E2B38B352F38E17783282B8EEDB1
    Master-Key: D285F2AB4A9EC7D5D97E83480878CA24FF38E071FCD423C6BFE7C8A06BB77EADFF16A48BF1E3B45FEA4D1265ECBE2D50
    Key-Arg   : None
    Start Time: 878813292
    Timeout   : 7200 (sec)
---
   1 items in the session cache
   0 client connects (SSL_connect())
   0 client connects that finished
   4 server accepts (SSL_accept())
   4 server accepts that finished
   3 session cache hits
   0 session cache misses
   0 session cache timeouts
   0 callback cache hits
   0 cache full overflows (128 allowed)
---
no client certificate available







From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Nov  6 07:35:27 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:35:27 +0800
Subject: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the streetmusician protocol)
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v031107bab087886a0db9@[139.167.130.248]>



At 8:24 pm -0500 on 11/5/97, Ian Grigg wrote:

> DEFCON IV was well before FC97.  This was an issue I was chasing Eric
> Hughes on.  As far as I understand it, this was unpublished in any form,
> just presented, but many people have saw it (must have been a big
> conference :-).  If anyone knows any different, please let me know
> (except, "get in touch with Eric" because that was not resultful).

Fine.

Since it seems -- for the time being -- Eric was the first person to figure
this stuff out and talk about it publically (so, what else is new? :-)), we
should give him credit for it.

A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
information process bites the dust.

And, since a lot of people, like myself :-), claim that anonymous bearer
settlement will be the cheapest way to effect a transaction in an
internetworked environment, then this kind of market process should
approach ubiquity sooner or later, and we should have a nice short name for
it. :-).

So, I propose that we call these things "Hughes markets" or "Hughes
auctions" or something. At least until we find the apocryphal 1940's
Atlantic Monthly article, like they did with hypertext. :-).

If it *does* turn out that Eric was the first person to see this, he might
end up with a trip to Stockholm someday...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga






-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From ukasz.Bromirski at gazeta.pl  Thu Nov  6 07:48:48 1997
From: ukasz.Bromirski at gazeta.pl (£ukasz Bromirski)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:48:48 +0800
Subject: WINDOWS *.PWL program
Message-ID: <3461AD1F.AF21C26A@gazeta.pl>



Two years ago, you've posted an Windows 95 *.PWL cracking
program. However, it was severly broken in our news group.
Could you post me personally a full-working copy of it
(as an e-mail) or a source (full) of this program?

I'll be glad to see it. Thanx in advance.

--
###    ### ### ###  ## ######           �ukasz Bromirski
# #    # # # # # # ##  # ####   e-mail: szopen at gazeta.pl
# #    # # # # # ###   # ##     tel. (+48) 022 699 48 00
# #### # ### # # # ##  # ####    Agora-Gazeta Sp. z o.o.
###### ####### ###  ## ######      Dzia� Telekomunikacji







From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Thu Nov  6 08:07:42 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:07:42 +0800
Subject: Clarifying the Language
Message-ID: <199711061550.HAA23134@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

TruthPastor wrote:
>Jim Burnes wrote:
>> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>> >   Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized
>> > entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
>> > The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
>> > types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
>> > is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
>> >   Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
>> > Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
>> > becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.
>
>> Ha!  This is pretty interesting.  Rather than the typical cypherpunk
>> approach of eliminating such inefficient and corrupting methods as
>> income taxation and tax exemption we are playing by their game.

Pathetic, isn't it?

>  Taxation and exemptions are, conceptually, no different than a
>tribal agreement that those who bring home the deer will share
>with those who guard the campsite, and that the shaman who keeps
>the evil spirits at bay has to do neither.

The important word in this sentence is "agreement".  If the American 
taxpayer does not agree with how his tax money is being used, does he not 
have the right to demand that it be used in an appropriate way?  If his 
demands go unanswered, does he not have the right to refuse to continue 
paying?  If the American taxpayer does not like substandard education, 
abortion, weapons manufacturing, destructive environmental legislation, and 
so forth, why should she be forced to pay for it?

The simple fact is that taxation in America has ceased to be an agreement, 
and has devolved into extortion with the threat of jail/forfeiture for 
"non-compliance".

>> The whole of [Orwell's] warning to society was that by systematically
>> altering the language, you alter the things that can be discussed.
>
>  I believe that half of the disagreements on the cypherpunks list,
>and the vast majority of disagreements in the world in general, are
>the result of disputes over semantics, rather than beliefs.

If one were to break down the anti-Income Tax argument to its most basic 
level, it would be that the government does not have the right to extort 
money from its citizens to promote agendas which are destructive of the 
citizens' persons and property.  Basic Common Sense (TM).

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNGHX9uFWwZe05jcJAQGj8AgAhPmUFgdrB5Wf5TYARJs7BovxFd+irLSA
DlSehEMQfzergb3hsl90rW+HFxlw01CueQrkZpCKlRoHUxeoj3vimgpXBJRwjFDE
ky2qhCSlFcjXEtqB6IBvPkzqd7lUK/lpv7VQzgsUrz6kS97l566sQTSILzF10mN2
NUT2CawCaU+69ZzR+oNwe6V8Yf1CWygIDYKnOiSpwRYsB6AV0kZcb5RKIYfDnNe7
FFjLsbg6L7LhQvvHHcs8CRkzjwo70sDI6kLOdUJvWPhyzuf4laam8L+tguTxrA96
2TUsMuG6Hi3WJVcUkabkx8J4D6yy3Pqep/scSgaqvwAr6VFJBh+KLg==
=32Dc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From freematt at coil.com  Thu Nov  6 08:53:53 1997
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:53:53 +0800
Subject: CNN's "Ian Goddard Plot"
Message-ID: <v02130501b087a2a9668a@[198.4.94.240]>



From: Ian Goddard <igoddard at netkonnect.net>
Subject: CNN's "Ian Goddard Plot"

   _________________________________________________
  ( free to forward & copy nonprofit with attribute )
   -------------------------------------------------


 CNN's IAN GODDARD TWA 800 "PLOT"

(c) 1997 Ian Williams Goddard

I've tried to decisively extricate myself from my TWA 800 inquiry, but it
seems that CNN and the gov't don't want me to go. CNN is spreading gross
misinformation on television, indicating that I said my inquiry into TWA
800  was part of a "sham" and a "plot."  That is FALSE!! I've always
promoted what I believe, and now I believe promoting the Navy-missile
theory was a big mistake! I believe that the evidence is not sufficient to
blame the Navy and I wish to move away from that and all areas of
conspiracy inquiry forever. But I never said my inquiries were a "plot" or
a "sham."

Christine Negroni with CNN contacted me a few days ago to ask about my
change of direction,  I did not contact her. CNN reports now suggest that I
said my conspiracy inquiry was part of a "plot" (a secret scheme) to do
damage to the government's reputation. That's 100% FALSE !!

My only crime is honesty. I'm honest enough to admit, as I have for months,
that my inquiry into TWA 800 was an effort to identify untruth in the
government. I have a fact-based bias against government, I'm a libertarian.
My webpage was entitled "Anti-Authoritarian Journal," identifying my bias
up front, unlike most sources.

Such up-front honesty is NOT a "plot," as CNN attempts to portray it. The
fact is that anything that is labeled what it is up front is by definition
NOT a plot. I'd say CNN has a bias for the gov't line, however, does CNN
label its journalism "Authoritarian Journalism?" No.


WITNESSES NOT MY FAULT

I did not invent nor am I to blame for the fact that 150+ witnesses
reported having seen something fly upwards and explode at the spot TWA 800
was. That there were such wit- nesses, up to 154, has been widely reported
in the media.

CNN just reported in reference to me:

Joe Lychner of Houston, who lost his wife and two daughters in the crash,
told CNN that Goddard and Salinger owe an explana- tion to the American
public.

The basis of the missile theory are the witnesses, and I did not invent the
witnesses. If anyone owes America an explanation for the missile theory I
think it's the wit- nesses, not me. All I did was report what they said and
commit the error of theorizing that maybe that fiery thing shooting up was
a Navy missile and the Navy is covering it up. I also did not invent the
Navy-missile theory. My explanation for that theory is that the Navy is
known to have many missiles and is known to be off- shore where the plane
crashed. However, an inventory showed that all Navy missiles were accounted
for...

OK fine, I'm ready to move on, but it seems they aren't:

National Transportation and Safety Board spokesman Peter Goelz told CNN
that my re-reporting of witness accounts and theorizing that the Navy was
at fault has done "real damage" and "caused innumerable people great
agony." Wow! It seems I'm a human monster of immense proportions.

I am sorry for that, yet it would seem that the fault lies in part and
primarily with the major media for ever having reported the witness
accounts in the first place. I then made the mistake of suggesting that the
Navy may have been at fault and is covering it up, which I now see as a
mistake, for I could be wrong and if I'm wrong I've impugned the
reputations of America's finest, which is something I should not and do not
now want to do, and for which having done in the past, I am very sorry.

I don't know what happened to TWA 800, and at this point I don't care! I
just want to be left alone and no longer harassed by the major media and
others over the TWA 800 case. I'm sorry I thought the Navy did it. It was a
mistaken thought. I'm sorry my thoughts have "caused innumerable people
great agony." I'm a humani- tarian and have been a vegetarian for 19 years
because I want NOT to cause suffering to any living being.


CNN's "SECRET SCHEME" THEORY

I've never published anything I thought was false. I even published errata
notices when required. All claims I've made were meticulously referenced so
that readers could check up on what I said for themselves. Providing not
just referenced information and ideas but all the links necessary to access
the larger body of information about the case is what made my reports so
popular and what made this little guy the focus of world news.

My plan has been to end my "war on the Establishment." Wanting to move on
from conspiracy theory and set a new course, I asked Doctor David Stern,
who hosts the DEEP TIMES webpage, to remove my conspiracy reports. However,
due to CNN's misleading charges that I've admitted to having been engaged
in a "plot" and thus that I will- fully attempted to mislead people to
believe what I knew to be false, I have requested that David Stern
temporarily replace all my reports so that people can judge for themselves
if I was the liar CNN suggests.

It will take David some time to get the reports back up, but when they are
up you can access them directly at: http://www.copi.com/articles/Goddard or
indirectly at: http://www.copi.com/articles/. Please check the first site
within the next few days.


 _____________________________________________
  Ian Goddard, now at <igoddard at netkonnect.net>


**************************************************************************
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**************************************************************************







From rich at paranoid.org  Thu Nov  6 09:10:52 1997
From: rich at paranoid.org (Rich Burroughs)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:10:52 +0800
Subject: Mitnick Rings Bell
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971106122235.00a31158@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971106084928.3808A-100000@highly.paranoid.org>



On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:

>  6 November 1997, Digital Cellular Report:
>
>  U.S. government takes hard line on Mitnick. US Hacker Pleads for Help
[snip]

I think Kevin's time in custody shapes up to at least 31 months now.  He
was recently sentenced on a couple of charges, but his time served
exceeds the sentence he was given.  He has been held without bail for
this incredible length of time, yet he has never committed a violent
crime, AFAIK, and never profited financially from his hacking.  In a
hearing a few months back he finally established the fact that he was not
a "fugitive" when he went underground, but had completed the release terms
he was under shortly before.

While I'm not sure I can follow this all to the conclusion that the gov is
using his case to distract people from their attempts to regulate the
Net, I think it is clear they are using him as a warning sign to potential
hackers: Don't believe you have anything like civil liberties, because we
can lock your ass up for years without even having to take you to trial.

There is a pretty quiet majordomo list about Kevin's case at 2600 --
mitnick at 2600.com.  Some of us who are concerned about Kevin's case have
been participating in an RC5 team that's meant to hopefully draw attention
to his case.  We're working on RC5-64 now, and people who are interested
in joining can visit the URL below.

The judge in Kevin's case recently set a tentative trail date, for April
of '98, I believe.  That means he'll have been in for over 3 years before
his federal tial begins.  He is facing a 25-count indictment.



Rich

---
Rich Burroughs  rich at paranoid.org
PGP Key Fingerprint = 22 BA C5 D7 2C 34 BF 8E  B5 82 2E 13 46 38 AA 1D
Cracking RC5-64 for Kevin Mitnick   http://www.paranoid.org/mitnick/ 






From ulf at fitug.de  Thu Nov  6 09:24:48 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:24:48 +0800
Subject: Is mixmaster dead?
In-Reply-To: <34611D52.922EC6CE@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <9711061703.AA53960@public.uni-hamburg.de>



> Funny, I get a:
> 
> File Not found

The page is back online now <URL: http://www.thur.de/ulf/mix/>.






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov  6 09:27:49 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:27:49 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711052249.QAA06301@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0879c165aec@[207.167.93.63]>



At 5:03 PM -0700 11/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
>John Kelsey <kelsey at plnet.net> writes:
>> Suppose there is some genetic disease that kills its victims on
>> their 31st birthday, unless they get a $1,000,000 treatment first.
>> Before I have taken the test for this disease, I have to accept a
>> certain risk--if I find out I have the disease, I have to raise a
>> million dollars in the next few months.  After I have taken the test
>> and gotten back the results, there's no more risk involved (assuming
>> the test is perfect)--I either have the disease or I don't.

I want to say one more thing about the example John Kelsey cites here.

That million dollar disease example is not too compelling to me. For
starters, there are literally hundreds of millions of persons on the planet
who are expected to die from various diseases or nutritional deficiencies
for lack of, not a million dollar treatment, not a $100,000 treatment, not
even a $1000 treatment...

No, there are billions who will die early (in childhood, early youth, etc.)
for want of treatments or supplements costing a few hundred dollars.

Not that I support forcibly extorting money from those who have it to give
to these wretches.

Which means I can honestly tell the "million dollar disease" guy: "I hope
you saved up a million dollars."

>> Before the test, though, insurance might be useful--I could
>> essentially place a bet with someone that I had the disease--I pay
>> $1, and get a million dollars back if my test comes back
>> positive--just enough to pay for my treatment.
>
>The insurance company would have no financial incentive to take on
>such risks -- I reckon they'd sooner let the wanna-be customer die.
>Nasty, but it's reality.

And underwriters do this all the time. That is, they fine-tune their
estimates of risks and adjust premiums accordingly.

If Joe Patient makes a bet on this million dollar disease, but won't let me
see any test reports, or won't let me test him independently, I as an
undewriter am going to make the assumption he knows something I don't know.
And his premium is going to go way, way up.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Nov  6 09:47:11 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:47:11 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <03fc89ba5c3283279c439ca450c74fc1@anon.efga.org>



Two ways to tell if the person has had the test:

A) The company performing the test keeps track of everyone who has had it.
This could be by some biometric ID, perhaps even a DNA fingerprint.

B) The company performing the test marks people who have had it.  They
could have a harmless radioactive tracer injected.  This would degrade
after a while but it could be used to see if the test had been taken
within some time interval.

Both of these require that all companies able to issue the test cooperate
and that there is no black market source of testing.






From schear at lvdi.net  Thu Nov  6 10:15:31 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:15:31 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b082c490dd70@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v03102804b086ef23fdad@[208.129.55.202]>



At 5:20 PM -0500 11/5/1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:13 pm -0500 on 11/2/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>
>> The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV
>> presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."
>
>I'm curious about this...
>
>Did DEFCON IV happen before, or after, the rump session of FC97 (February
>26? 1997), when Jason Cronk talked about recursive auctions on geodesic
>networks? Actually, now that I think about it, Ian Grigg did a talk about
>the sell-side inverse of the same idea in the same session...

Eric's came first.  It was in July 1996.

--Steve







From vipul at best.com  Thu Nov  6 10:23:49 1997
From: vipul at best.com (Vipul Ved Prakash)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:23:49 +0800
Subject: [news] U.S. cyberterrorism report hit on encryption stance
Message-ID: <199711061434.OAA00250@fountainhead.net>



*** U.S. cyberterrorism report hit on encryption stance

The U.S. commission on critical infrastructure was criticized
Wednesday for endorsing the Clinton administration's policy requiring
government access to all private computer data. Sen. Patrick Leahy
said key questions had been raised about costs and feasibility of
so-called key recovery systems. "Until those significant questions
are ... answered, we should be cautious in adopting grand key
recovery encryption schemes that may exacerbate system
vulnerabilities," Leahy said. The commission's report warned key
telephone, power, water and financial systems were increasingly
vulnerable to computer attack. For story
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5804555-b01







From 0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM  Thu Nov  6 10:33:16 1997
From: 0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM (Michael Wilson)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:33:16 +0800
Subject: Govt. key escrow justification
Message-ID: <01IPP6D87B5YAR2N18@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>



I'm attaching the Nando and NYT pieces on the President's Commission
on Critical Infrastructure Protection.  As feared yet expected, their
effort is turning into another key escrow justification.  Anyone who
is interested, let me know, I've commented the PCCIP summary report
(the full report is classified).  I'm one of the few public strong-
crypto supporters who also happens to be a professional in the field
of infrastructural attacks, so this makes things even more lonely.
Michael Wilson
http://www.7pillars.com/

   ________________________________________________________________________
                                       
               U.S. cyberterrorism report hit on encryption stance
  ____________________________________________________________________________
                                        
      Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
      Copyright ) 1997 Reuters
      
   WASHINGTON (November 6, 1997 00:53 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - The
   U.S. commission on critical infrastructure drew strong criticism
   Wednesday for endorsing the Clinton administration's controversial
   policy that would require government access to all private computer
   data.
   
   Sen. Patrick Leahy, Democrat of Vermont, said significant questions had
   been raised about the costs and feasibility of so-called key recovery
   systems.
   
   "Until those significant questions are fully considered and answered, we
   should be cautious in adopting grand key recovery encryption schemes
   that may only exacerbate system vulnerabilities," Leahy said in a
   statement.
   
   The commission's report, delivered to President Clinton last month and
   later released to the public in declassified form, warned that critical
   telephone, power, water and financial systems were becoming increasingly
   vulnerable to computer attack.
   
   The commission also said it favored greater use of computer encryption
   programs, which use mathematical formulas to scramble information and
   render it unreadable without a password or software "key."
   
   Encryption programs could be used to prevent hackers or terrorists from
   infiltrating computer networks that run critical infrastructure systems,
   for example.
   
   But the commission backed use of key recovery, a technology to allow law
   enforcement officials to decode any encrypted message covertly.
   
   "Key recovery is needed to provide business access to data when
   encryption keys are lost or maliciously misplaced, and court-authorized
   law enforcement access to the plain text of criminal related
   communications and data lawfully seized," the report said.
   
   FBI director Louis Freeh and other law enforcement officials back
   legislation to require all encryption products to include such features,
   but many high-tech companies, scientists, and civil libertarians oppose
   mandatory back-door access to coded information.
   
   The Center for Democracy and Technology, an Internet advocacy group,
   noted that a recent report by cryptography experts found that key
   recovery features added numerous new vulnerabilities to computer
   systems.
   
   "Key recovery is inconsistent with the (commission's) own calls for
   greater security in our nation's critical infrastructures," the group
   said.
   
   Robert Marsh, who chaired the commission, defended the report to
   reporters after a hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee's
   technology and terrorism subcommittee.
   
   Marsh contended the report took a balanced view of the encryption
   debate. "We didn't get into the encryption debate and all the nuances
   and individual decisions," he said. "We simply came on strong for
   encryption."
   
   In its formal recommendations, the commission urged the government to
   speed up pilot programs on key recovery, promote efforts to plan for
   implementing large-scale key recovery systems and encourage
   private-sector key recovery efforts.
     ___________________________________________________________________

      November 6, 1997
      
Head of Cyber-Terrorism Panel Says Encryption Rules May Be Needed

      By JERI CLAUSING Bio
      
     WASHINGTON The head of a presidential commission on cyber-terrorism
     on Wednesday told a Senate panel that a mandatory system guaranteeing
     third-party access to scrambled computer communications may be
     necessary if industry does not embrace the Clinton administration's
     plan for a voluntary encryption decoding system.
       ________________________________________________________________
     
     Robert T. Marsh, an aerospace consultant and retired Air Force
     general who is chairman of the President's Commission on Critical
     Infrastructure Protection, made the remarks in his first
     non-classified report on the commission's 15-month study and its
     recommendations for protecting the nation's computer networks from
     high-tech terrorism.
     
     The commission recommended a variety of proposals, including
     increased private-public partnership and information sharing, more
     comprehensive background checks on people who hold sensitive
     positions, strengthening of government computer systems and spending
     more on research to improve network security.
     
     But the key to national security, Marsh said, is strong encryption
     coupled with a back-door access for law enforcement officials to
     sensitive communications.
     
     "We want to see that adopted over all the critical control functions
     at an early date," he told the Senate Judiciary Committee's
     Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Information.
     
     The commission's recommendation for a voluntary system that would
     give law enforcement officials the ability to decode electronic
     messages, called a key-recovery system, mirrors that of the
     administration, which says it wants ensure such officials can gain
     access to the coded communications of suspected criminals and
     terrorists.
     
     Encryption policy has been a volatile topic on Capitol Hill this
     year, where bills ranging from an industry-backed ban on key recovery
     to an FBI-supported mandatory key-recovery scheme have passed various
     House committees. The Clinton administration insists it supports a
     Senate bill establishing voluntary key recovery.
     
     "We didn't get into the encryption debate and all the nuances of
     individual positions," Marsh said. "We simply came on strong for
     encryption. We must have encryption."
     
     He told the panel that "we must lower the temperature of the
     encryption debate" long enough to complete pilot projects on key
     recovery that will prove to industry that such systems can work.
     
     Various agencies of the federal government currently are developing
     13 key recovery pilot projects, which were on display Wednesday at a
     Government Information Technology Services conference. Marsh said the
     National Security Agency and the National Institutes for Standards
     and Technology should head efforts to perfect those systems and set
     standards for a national infrastructure protection office to carry
     out.

     Asked by the subcommittee's chairman, Jon Kyl, an Arizona Republican,
     if those controls should be mandated, Marsh responded: "We think
     businessmen will find it in their best interest to incorporate these
     controls. ... Of course, in due time, that may be an option if they
     are not willing to accept them."
     
     Critics blasted the report as premature and contradictory.
     
     "I am concerned that the report's recommendations that large-scale
     key-recovery encryption systems which allow for surreptitious
     decryption by law enforcement be deployed for use by federal agencies
     and the private sector is premature," said Senator Patrick Leahy, a
     Vermont Democrat who has sponsored a bill to relax controls on
     encryption technology."
     
     "Significant questions have been raised by leading cryptographers
     about the security risks inherent in large-scale key recovery
     systems, which introduce new vulnerabilities and targets for attack,
     as well as about the costs and feasibility of implementing such
     systems."
     
     The Center for Democracy and Technology said the "increasing
     vulnerabilities," "increasing dependence on critical infrastructure,"
     and "wide spectrum of threats" identified by the commission all
     provide powerful arguments against the deployment of the vastly
     complex and insecure systems for back-door access that key recovery
     requires.
     
     The center cited a recent study by 11 expert cryptographers and
     computer security experts, "The Risks of Key Recovery, Key Escrow,
     and Trusted Third Parties," which identifies numerous risks in the
     widespread deployment of such key-recovery plans. Among those risks
     is insider abuse, which Marsh said so far has been the chief culprit
     in computer-related crimes.
     
     Marsh said a separate section of the report makes "recommendations
     that try to equip us better to deal with the insider threat, that's a
     separate problem."
       ________________________________________________________________

    Jeri Clausing at jeri at nytimes.com welcomes your comments and
    suggestions.
       ________________________________________________________________

                  Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company

---
For those who want to track this issue further, the PCCIP is at
http://www.pccip.gov/






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Nov  6 10:52:34 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:52:34 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711061032.FAA08872@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199711061844.SAA05867@server.test.net>




Adam Shostack <adam at homeport.org> writes:
> Many insurance companies with Mutual in their name (Liberty Mutual is
> large in the Northeastern US) get that from being founded as mutual
> insurance companies, where you pay to be part of the mutual insurance
> group, and when you get sick, injured, etc, the group pays money
> towords your treatment.  I think it broke down with increases in
> mobility.  They were implicitly based on reputation capital, and were
> not highly fraud resistant.
> 
> Adam's suggestion of a charity which only pays for the treatment of
> those who donate thus recreates an old system.

Saying that it would be a charity is just a statement of reality.
There exist no methods to insure when there is a near certainty of a
payout being required, as I think we all agree (Tim, Adam, Jon).

To call it anything other than charity is misleading, so I am really
just arguing for honesty in advertising.  (Something socialists are
not big on :-)

An insurance company would probably find customers and hope to make a
profit by offering a mutual fund, or charitable donation service.
There would be an agreement as to who could claim, and what types of
illness were covered, maximum payouts etc.  Then the business would
use the funds (minus it's profit margin) to pay for those treatments
affordable within the current funds.

This means that as funds may be limited that some people will go
untreated, if their treatments are too expensive and funds are short.
Efficient usage of funds is expected -- if it costs $1m to fix up some
old guy to live for a couple more years as opposed to giving cheaper
treatments to several younger people, well the old guy gets to die.

This might seem heartless to socialist types, but this kind of
decision gets made all the time by medics, who don't have unlimited
funds even in socialist countries.  In the UK some practices are funds
holding, which means that they get to manage their own money, they get
to decide which drugs to use, and who to give them to, and they get to
use profits (or more correctly surplus government grants) in certain
ways (equipment, etc).  (Or they did, Labour were threatening to
confiscate these surpluses).  I talk to medics a bit, as I am into
medical messaging security, and some of the people are bilingual
medics and medical informatics people.  Examples are drugs which are
3% more effective but cost 5x the price.  These kinds of optimisation
of available resources problems are all over the place in medicine,
and doctors balance these within budgets.

Another example is that doctors are able to tell smokers with lung
cancer who refuse to stop smoking that they will not treat them.  Or
switch off life support machines if it looks pretty hopeless, and is
costing a fortune to keep a half-alive person ticking over.

The failure with mutual funds is that people will attempt to start
donating once they realise they have some big medical bills coming (if
only donators get payouts).  To combat this the company might perhaps
have a policy of not paying out within 5 years of the first donation.
Then you'll have the counter attack of people re-selling proof of
donation receipts.  And then the company can counter that with a hash
of DNA code mixed in to the donation receipt such that only with the
patients consent can the receipt be used to link to him. 

The key point is the choice.  Many companies, many choices, freedom to
donate or not, or to stipulate terms of donation (eg., not to fund
lung cancer treatment for smokers).

It seems to me that people are on average more generous and charitable
than socialists would have us believe also.  For example a charity to
support people who had no insurance, or hit the maximum payout on
their insurance might get donations.  Perhaps even enough donations
that it would cover most cases.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From attila at hun.org  Thu Nov  6 11:03:17 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:03:17 +0800
Subject: Mitnick Rings Bell
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971106122235.00a31158@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971106.183435.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the assholes missed the point...

on or about 971106:0722, in 

>6 November 1997, Digital Cellular Report:
>
>U.S.  government takes hard line on Mitnick.  
>US Hacker Pleads for Help
>
>A US 'hacker'- Kevin David Mitnick - has issued a plea
>for financial help to fight his defence case through
>his lawyer, Donald C Randolph of Santa Monica,
>
>USA.  Through Randolph, Mitnick is claiming that the
>US government is seeking to make an example of him for
>the possession of unauthorised cellular access codes.
>The issue is particularly important in the North
>American market where analogue, rather than digital
>cellular, is the norm.
>
>In one of the most amazing claims, Mitnick claims to
>have been kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours a
>day, naked in a freezing air-conditioned cell for
>eight months and led to the showers in chains.
>
    anybody who thinks that does not happen in Federal
    prisons has their eyes closed.  the only light is
    through the observation port, and a 4 in. hole in
    the floor is provided for defecation, etc. the one
    hour per day is for exercise and the every other 
    day shower. cell space requirement: 49 sq. ft.

    the feds will not permit the states this torture,
    but that does not stop the BOP...

>Perhaps the most puzzling aspect to the whole case is
>the fact that while the US government has never sought
>to prove that Mitnick profited from his 'hacking'
>activities - although he could certainly have done so
>by 'selling' stolen airtime to third parties.  Instead
>they claim he caused losses in excess of $80 million.
>
    easier to charge losses for what he used and/or
    blocked

>Kevin certainly appears to be paying the price for his
>nefarious deeds having already spent nearly two years
>in custody during which time he has been prohibited
>from any access to wireless communications equipment,
>computer hardware or computer software.
>
    well, what do you expect? something of value?

>It's difficult to know exactly which side is the more
>paranoid since Mitnick is claiming that his fate is
>part of a deliberate US government plot to divert
>scrutiny away from its plans concerning the control
>and regulation of both telecommunications and the
>Internet.
>
    must be a cypherpunk candidate; we know they're
    trying to take over.  

>The case would seem to present a most powerful
>argument for the US to switch more swiftly over to
>digital cellular where 'hacking' is far more
>difficult.  
>
    sure...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNGIRg7R8UA6T6u61AQHiOwH/YCXytl6HUt4yqOn+9xJhBSRB1wdygg85
FUTb2uG34SGzBxtLGClnv9PysmVcEYuJNYIXcdq+AuubW8qNG528zw==
=4L+D
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Thu Nov  6 11:40:26 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:40:26 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711012037.OAA01218@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971102181317.414B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>



> >  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> > guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> > can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> > the constitution?
> 
> No, my responce is prove your assertions. Explain to me why you believe
> these are valid views and why they provide a more usable environment for
> understanding what is going on then others.

What do you want proven? That the second ammendment is absolute? Even if 
one does not believe that (I personally do from a simple libertarian 
point of view rather than that of a constitutionalist) then surely the 
level of infringement of 2nd ammendment rights currently seen must 
indicate to you a validity of the statement "Congress either doesn`t 
understand or ignores the constitution".

> > The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> > neighbours what they could think.
> 
> Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?

We really don`t need a "law count", more new laws are passed than old 
ones are repealed or fall into disuse. Therefore there is an increasing 
law count, of course a lot of laws have counter-laws that contradict them 
but this does not reduce the law count, infact it effectively increases 
it by making there a larger number of things for which one can be 
convicted of breaking the law.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Nov  6 11:42:45 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:42:45 +0800
Subject: Govt. key escrow justification
In-Reply-To: <01IPP6D87B5YAR2N18@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <199711061927.TAA06387@server.test.net>




This is scary stuff... Clipper VI (or whatever number we're up to) in
the making.  Expect a fresh onslaught of government master key
attempts from the US government based on this info war initiative.

Michael Wilson <0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM> forwards:
>    "Key recovery is needed to provide business access to data when
>    encryption keys are lost or maliciously misplaced, 

Where they pervert commercial key recovery to mean central government
master access.  Nasty lies expertly spin-doctored.

>    and court-authorized
>    law enforcement access to the plain text of criminal related
>    communications and data lawfully seized," the report said.

Where criminals who rate the expense of wiretaps will be using pgp2.x
downloaded from Russia, or where ever.  More spin doctoring.

>    In its formal recommendations, the commission urged the government to
>    speed up pilot programs on key recovery, promote efforts to plan for
>    implementing large-scale key recovery systems and encourage
>    private-sector key recovery efforts.

And there it is, they now want to encourage private sector key
recovery.  Now why would they want to do that, if they don't plan to
use it as an infrastructure.

>      WASHINGTON The head of a presidential commission on cyber-terrorism
>      on Wednesday told a Senate panel that a mandatory system guaranteeing
>      third-party access to scrambled computer communications may be
>      necessary if industry does not embrace the Clinton administration's
>      plan for a voluntary encryption decoding system.

And there so soon we have another repetition of Freeh's comments about
mandatory being necessary.

>      But the key to national security, Marsh said, is strong encryption
>      coupled with a back-door access for law enforcement officials to
>      sensitive communications.

I don't buy this at all.  For an infrastructure attack you're worried
about pervasive problems in case someone tries to bring down the whole
system.  Building central control in _anything_ is asking for trouble
in info war terms.  Everything should be as distributed as possible,
to minimise scope of an attacker who compromises keys.

Law enforcement with the master keys to the whole country is a huge
risk.  Some law enforcement key custodian will simply be bribed or
coerced for the key, and then they really will have an info war risk.

>      "We want to see that adopted over all the critical control functions
>      at an early date," he told the Senate Judiciary Committee's
>      Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Information.

They want to fast track mandatory government access also.

>      He told the panel that "we must lower the temperature of the
>      encryption debate" long enough to complete pilot projects on key
>      recovery that will prove to industry that such systems can work.

A dangerous climate to be building any recovery systems in, however
carefully constructed to reduce risks.  I am having doubts about the
safety of working on even about anything but the most ad-hoc local
recovery at this point.

>      Various agencies of the federal government currently are developing
>      13 key recovery pilot projects, which were on display Wednesday at a
>      Government Information Technology Services conference. Marsh said the
>      National Security Agency and the National Institutes for Standards
>      and Technology should head efforts to perfect those systems and set
>      standards for a national infrastructure protection office to carry
>      out.

Really gunning for it this time.  13 recovery pilots, NIST and NSA
involvement, standards setting.

>      Asked by the subcommittee's chairman, Jon Kyl, an Arizona Republican,
>      if those controls should be mandated, Marsh responded: "We think
>      businessmen will find it in their best interest to incorporate these
>      controls. ... Of course, in due time, that may be an option if they
>      are not willing to accept them."

That's a new one... give us master key access now, and we'll think
about allowing exceptions at some point in the future.

>      "Significant questions have been raised by leading cryptographers
>      about the security risks inherent in large-scale key recovery
>      systems, which introduce new vulnerabilities and targets for attack,
>      as well as about the costs and feasibility of implementing such
>      systems."

The main problem is the security and risk of government abuse.  I'm
not that sure cost or feasibility is a problem.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From listmanager at orange.redmans.com  Thu Nov  6 11:59:03 1997
From: listmanager at orange.redmans.com (R. Jason Cronk)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:59:03 +0800
Subject: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol)
In-Reply-To: <34611C3B.60ACCF02@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b087c75e4aa6@[199.227.220.35]>



 >Since it seems -- for the time being -- Eric was the first person to figure
>this stuff out and talk about it publically (so, what else is new? :-)), we
>should give him credit for it.


While we do need a shorter name and I don't really care what name is used
to describe it, I do think somebody needs to figure out exactly what "it"
is.  Since I don't know what Eric Hughes was talking about at DEFCON IV, I
can't know whether his "it" is the same thing I'm talking about.
Especially since everybody else I've seen talking about "it" seems to leave
out what I think is the most important part -- value added.

So far I have yet to see anyone write a clear and concise article
describing the economic system we've been discussing.  I've tried, but to
date I haven't had the time.  I'm too busy trying to steer my business in
that directon to write about it.

I leave as an exercise for everyone, describe the difference between a
recursive geodesic auction market and a chain letter or a multi-level
marketing scheme (which I might add are rampant on the net).  What prevents
the latter from being a subset of the former?


Jason Cronk









>
>A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
>auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
>bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
>networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
>the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
>information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
>information process bites the dust.
>
>And, since a lot of people, like myself :-), claim that anonymous bearer
>settlement will be the cheapest way to effect a transaction in an
>internetworked environment, then this kind of market process should
>approach ubiquity sooner or later, and we should have a nice short name for
>it. :-).
>
>So, I propose that we call these things "Hughes markets" or "Hughes
>auctions" or something. At least until we find the apocryphal 1940's
>Atlantic Monthly article, like they did with hypertext. :-).
>
>If it *does* turn out that Eric was the first person to see this, he might
>end up with a trip to Stockholm someday...
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
>
>
>
>For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
>"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".









From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Thu Nov  6 12:19:40 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 04:19:40 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971102182344.414C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> Governments and religions *ARE* people. There are times where I think you
> have said the stupidist thing possible and then you keep typing. Individuals
> are the ones who killed the Jews, put pepper spray in the eyes of
> demonstrators, and just about everything else that gets done.

Yes, but these people were "just obeying orders", these orders in turn 
came from a government which, although it consists of individuals is much 
more than that, The whole problem with demcracy is that it merges the 
views of those that give it a mandate to govern into one huge fudge, 
anarchies give less structural potential for the "mob rule" seen in 
modern democracies. Also, by and large, governments in modern democracies 
are free to commit small evils without ever influencing their share of 
the vote, the bigger evils are the ones that get noticed by the electorate.

Governments are just "collections of individuals", in the same way that a 
you are just "a load of assorted chemicals". To say something like that 
indicates a lack of understanding of the distinction between individual 
views and mob rule, I credit you with more intelligence than to ignore 
such a distinction Jim.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Nov  6 13:00:17 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 05:00:17 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <e101274e510cf3c0d04309ff3ddac7a8@anon.efga.org>



I have your GAK. Mail me your CAK and we'll trade.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Nov  6 14:08:35 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:08:35 +0800
Subject: Govt. key escrow justification
Message-ID: <199711062145.WAA28195@basement.replay.com>



Adam Back wrote:
> This is scary stuff... Clipper VI (or whatever number we're up to) in
> the making.  Expect a fresh onslaught of government master key
> attempts from the US government based on this info war initiative.
 
> Michael Wilson <0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM> forwards:
> >    In its formal recommendations, the commission urged the government to
> >    speed up pilot programs on key recovery, promote efforts to plan for
> >    implementing large-scale key recovery systems and encourage
> >    private-sector key recovery efforts.

> And there it is, they now want to encourage private sector key
> recovery.  Now why would they want to do that, if they don't plan to
> use it as an infrastructure.
> Building central control in _anything_ is asking for trouble
> in info war terms.  Everything should be as distributed as possible,
> to minimise scope of an attacker who compromises keys.

  InfoWar goes on all the time amongst the Heavy Hitters in governement
and commerce. It's called politics and money.

Scenario I:
  Bill Gate$ reads an article where US Federal LEA's are bragging to
insider politicians about their history of using their snooping and
InfoWar capacities to financially disrupt 'bad' governments and
corporations. Bill Gate$ then hands his company's secret keys over
to the government because he trusts them to settle their dispute
with him in court, instead of just 'grabbing' his money via his
secret keys.

Scenario II:
  Bill Gate$ gives his company's secret keys to Lucky Green, who runs
toward the site of the Cypherpunks physical meeting, shouting, "Party
time! Party time!" BillyG walks back to the limo, muttering, "That
Lucky sure has a good sense of humor...I hope!"

> Law enforcement with the master keys to the whole country is a huge
> risk.  Some law enforcement key custodian will simply be bribed or
> coerced for the key, and then they really will have an info war risk.

  The only thing security levels do is determine the end cost of 
compromising security. Do you have to bribe/coerce a janitor or an
executive?

> >      Asked by the subcommittee's chairman, Jon Kyl, an Arizona Republican,
> >      if those controls should be mandated, Marsh responded: "We think
> >      businessmen will find it in their best interest to incorporate these
> >      controls. ... Of course, in due time, that may be an option if they
> >      are not willing to accept them."

  Voluntary-Mandatory == Volmundatory ?  

  GAK, GMR, ATP (Access to Toilet Plungers)...Cookies, Identity
Tracking...
  What is going on is quite simply a battle for access to information.
  InoWar!

  Everybody wants access to the information of others, and to deny 
others access to their own information.
  Information is power, and power is kept by keeping the keys to that
information.

  Corporations want to play footsie with the Government when it comes to
getting access to all information and communications that pass through
the self-defined borders of the Corporate Electromagnetic Curtain, but
want to avoid being subject to total control within the borders of the
Government's own self-defined ElectroMagnetic Curtain.

  The issues of power and control are the same as they have always been,
but the Battle of the Bulge is now the Battle of the Byte.
  Government, Corporations, Organizations, Individuals...the players
will be the same as in MeatSpace, and so will the issues and underlying
concepts and ideals.
  Those seeking power and control will use the same tried-and-true
methods, such as Divide and Conquer. "We don't want no 'nigger' data
passing through our website. <---> We don't want no 'racist' data
passing through our website."
  Chorus: <everybody sings together> "THERE OUGHT TO BE A LAW!"

  The Government wants to seize contol of ElectroMagnetic Reality by
appointing themselves as our Electronic Protectors.
  Corporations are fighting to use the new technologies to protect
themselves, cutting the Government out of the power loop. Individuals
_should_ be trying to do the same.
  Government has declared Crypto munitions for the same reason they
increasingly declare Guns to be 'government-munitions'. Those who 
have no power to protect themselves are vulnerable to those who have
_reserved_ that power for themselves.

  Crypto or Guns...it's all about power and control of CyberSpace and
MeatSpace.

MunitionsMonger






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Thu Nov  6 14:22:11 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:22:11 +0800
Subject: BXA mtg in DC, 12/9/97
Message-ID: <Beta.32.19971106134658.043abc40@208.139.36.80>




In late September, I attended a meeting of the BXA's Regulations &
Procedures Technical Advisory Committee in Portland (OR), where there was
some discussion of crypto export control regulations, plans for changes to
those regs, etc. There will be another meeting of that group on 12/9/97 at
9 AM in the (Herbert C., not J. Edgar) Hoover Building, Room 3884, between
Pennsylvania & Constitution Avenues, NW, in Washington DC. The agenda is:

1.	Opening remarks by the Chairperson.
2.	Presentation of papers or comments by the public.
3.	Update on the encryption regulation.
4.	Update on the Wassenaar Arrangement implementation regulation.
5.	Discussion on the "deemed export" issue.
6.	Discussion on the Enhanced Proliferation Control Initiative and the
continued publication of Entities of Concern.
7.	Update on the Automated Export System.
8.	Discussion on efforts to conform the Foreign Trade Statistics
Regulations and the Export Administration Regulations on export clearance
requirements.

[Closed session]
9.	Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 19958,
dealing with U.S. export control program and strategic criteria related
thereto.
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com






From ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Nov  6 14:31:13 1997
From: ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca (Six)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:31:13 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [RePol] Donations Received]
Message-ID: <34623BFA.597D@sk.sympatico.ca>

This was sent through EFGA's Georgia Cracker Remailer, but seems to
have gotten 'lost' in the remail.
Go figure...


To: remailer at anon.efga.org
Subject: Re: [RePol] Donations Received
From: TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 22:24:00 -0600
Organization: "It's not FUD until *I* say it's FUD!"
References: <3.0.3.32.19971105220233.03538154 at rboc.net>
Reply-To: tm at dev.null

::
Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

Robert A. Costner wrote:
> 
> This week Electronic Frontiers Georgia (EFGA) found donations in our
> mailbox for the first time.  I'd like to thank those of you who have sent
> us your support.  As you know, EFGA has no endowment or source of income.

  I was rather surprised when I received a plea for donations from these
people via my subscription to a suicide survivors mailing list. Likewise
when my 10 year old daughter mentioned receiving one through her 4H Club
mailing list.
  Upon asking others at work, I found that these people have been
sending
their requests to millions of people, through every conceivable internet
forum, and that quite a few of the recipients had been taken in, and
sent
them donations.

  In the interests of stopping this obvious scam, I have founded a group
dedicated to wiping out this kind of fraud on the internet, starting
with
the scum at the EFGA.
  If you are interested in contributing to our effort, send donations
to:
	Electronic Fraud Fighters (EFF)
	Box 281,
	Bienfait, Saskatchewan
	  CANADA   S0C 0M0
or email me at:
TruthMistress <tm at dev.null>

> If we raise $2,000 we will be getting a new
> server.  If we raise $900, we will be doing upgrades on the current machine.

> The address again is
> 
>         Electronic Frontiers Georgia
>         Suite A-205
>         4780 Ashford Dunwoody Road
>         Atlanta, GA 30338
> 
> For membership info, http://www.efga.org/about/membership.html






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Thu Nov  6 15:09:20 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:09:20 +0800
Subject: BXA mtg in DC, 12/9/97
In-Reply-To: <Beta.32.19971106134658.043abc40@208.139.36.80>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971106235243.6951A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> 
> 
> In late September, I attended a meeting of the BXA's Regulations &
> Procedures Technical Advisory Committee in Portland (OR), where there was
> some discussion of crypto export control regulations, plans for changes to
> those regs, etc. There will be another meeting of that group on 12/9/97 at
> 9 AM in the (Herbert C., not J. Edgar) Hoover Building, Room 3884, between
> Pennsylvania & Constitution Avenues, NW, in Washington DC. The agenda is:

[...]
 
> [Closed session]
> 9.	Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 19958,
> dealing with U.S. export control program and strategic criteria related
> thereto.

I wonder if they bug sweep the meetings room after the audience leaves...

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From ulf at fitug.de  Thu Nov  6 15:38:56 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:38:56 +0800
Subject: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
In-Reply-To: <199711042348.XAA04981@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <m0xTajX-0003bQC@ulf.mali.sub.org>



20 % of the users who have posted digitally signed messages that are
available in my news spool (international and local newsgroups and
mailing lists) use PGP 5.  The sample contains 545 unique e-mail
addresses.  YMMV.

S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
     10
Version: 2.3a
      1
Version: 2.6.1
      1
Version: 2.6.2
     68
Version: 2.6.2, by FileCrypt 1.0
      2
Version: 2.6.2i
      5
Version: 2.6.3
      4
Version: 2.6.3a
      8
Version: 2.6.3i
     37
Version: 2.6.3ia
    278
Version: 2.6.3ig
      1
Version: 2.6.3in
      9
Version: 2.7.1
      2
Version: 4.5
      6
Version: Cryptix 2.2.2
      2
Version: Cryptix 2.21
      3
Version: Cryptix 2.3.0
      1
Version: PGP 5.0i
      1
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
     12
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
     86
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 Charset: noconv
      1
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
      7






From meddle at adept.co.za  Thu Nov  6 15:42:20 1997
From: meddle at adept.co.za (Dirko)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:42:20 +0800
Subject: Ooops....!
Message-ID: <XFMail.971107012952.meddle@adept.co.za>



That should have been cypherpunks-request at toad.com ...
SH**
sorry ... It's coffee buzz...
*shake*
---------------------------------- 
Dirko van Schalkwyk 
Dead Engineers Society
E-Mail: meddle at adept.co.za
Date: 11/07/97
Time: 01:28:37
-----------------------
Movie Quotes for Willow (1988)
-----------------------
Sorsha: What are you looking at?
Madmartigan: Your leg. I'd like to break it.
------------- 
All of the following stolen from selected poeple mailing to the AfterStep
mailing list
-----------------------
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.It just happens to be very
selective about who it decides to make friends with.
-----------------------
Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch
to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor,
written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition






From vznuri at netcom.com  Thu Nov  6 15:56:40 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:56:40 +0800
Subject: plugin to sell digital files in cyberspace announced!!
Message-ID: <199711062345.PAA05699@netcom15.netcom.com>




wow, I have been thinking that netscape/microsoft would put
something like this in their browser and that this would
kickstart the microcurrency market. however, it sounds like
someone has preempted them for the moment and
built a plugin. this is an extremely significant development
imho. I don't know how credible they are (the notice was
spam) but it's a step in the right direction, and the
creation of a whole new market I predict.



Date: Thu, 06 Nov 97 06:28:47 EST
To: InternetUser at The.Net
Subject: Turn your web-site into a pay-per-view site free in 10min!
Reply-To: powerit at venus.t-1net.com

I-vendor is offering a freeware version of a software plug-in that
allows
anyone to sell digital files such as photos, programs, text based
information etc. from any web site. You don't have to be a company, you
don't have to have credit card facilities, you don't have to do anything
fancy with your web site - just convert your files, put them on your
site and wait for the monthly checks. The software works with Window 3.x
& 95 and current versions of Netscape and Internet Explorer - full
instructions for use are provided.
- - ---
Visit http://members.aol.com/ivendor/index.htm to download the freeware
plug-in and information pack.




- ------- End of Forwarded Message


------- End of Forwarded Message






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Nov  6 16:08:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:08:24 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [RePol] Donations Received]
Message-ID: <199711062347.AAA15518@basement.replay.com>



Six wrote:
> This was sent through EFGA's Georgia Cracker Remailer, but seems to
> have gotten 'lost' in the remail.
> Go figure...

Perhaps they objected to you not using your Government approved 
'Prisoner of Citizenship' name.







From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Nov  6 16:39:06 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:39:06 +0800
Subject: new lanl patent?
Message-ID: <v0311074ab0880af8248c@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-cryptography at c2.org using -f
From: proff at iq.org
Date: 6 Nov 1997 06:35:37 -0000
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: new lanl patent?
Sender: owner-cryptography at c2.net


From: "Jongsma, Ken (NM75)" <ken.jongsma at das.honeywell.com>
Date: 24 Oct 1997 10:32:24 -0600
Subject: Hiding In Plain Sight

from the Oct 20 Aviation Week:

"Researchers at Los ALimos National Laboratory have patented a new
software technique that can hide secret information in the electronic
"noise" associated with the transmission of data and electronic
images.  Called "data embedding," the method allows classified data to
be stored and transferred in open transmissions and can serve as an
"electronic watermark" to prevent unauthorized manipulation of digital
images and other information, according to Ted Handel, project leader.
The software can be used on a desktop personal computer and consumes
only 512 kilobytes of memory, less than most word processing programs.
It is written in "C" computer language which conforms to virtually any
digital storage medium. Overall document length can remain the same."

Aside from the obvious errors in the story, do you suppose that someone
ought to clue the patent office in that steganography has existed for
quite a while now? If anyone would like to research the patent and
report back, it would be interesting to see what is so unique that the
could get a patent on it.

--
ken.jongsma at das.honeywell.com
505 828-5876 Voice
505 828-5500 Fax

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Nov  6 16:39:43 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:39:43 +0800
Subject: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street	musician protocol)
Message-ID: <v0311073fb08806bd261a@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: hutchinson at click.ncri.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:52:30 -0500
To: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
From: hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street
musician protocol)
Cc: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

Robert Hettinga wrote:

>A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
>auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
>bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
>networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
>the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
>information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
>information process bites the dust.

Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information
was stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin
to *persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes
and Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
range of parameters (including price, usage context, and any other variable
for which you can imagine having a certificate).  Whats fundamentally
different about what are generically referred to as secure envelopes, is
that they can maintain controls *indefinitely* (persistence), across an un-
known, ad hoc, web of distribution over which one otherwise has no
control.  And yes, this can all work even in a completely disconnected
environment (laptop at 35,000 feet).

They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new
ways, based on entirely new (or old) business models, that take advantage
of rich/elaborate conditions for usage (e.g. you can view this picture
anonymously, but it will cost you 2X as much, and you can only get it at
low resolution, and you can't view it at all unless you can prove that you
don't live in the Middle East).  No certificate for these conditions?
Sorry, no content.

They are based the same basic stuff (public key cryptography of course)
that *can* fuel wild anarchic visions of anonymous exchange.  ;)

But they aren't at all deterministic of any particular economic model.

Regards,

- Art

Art Hutchinson                                       hutchinson at ncri.com
Northeast Consulting Resources, Inc.     phone: (617) 654-0635
One Liberty Square                                 fax: (617) 654-0654
Boston, MA 02160                                 www.ncri.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Working at the intersection of business and IT strategy to
help organizations embrace electronic commerce opportunities"



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Nov  6 17:01:50 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:01:50 +0800
Subject: Jam Six
Message-ID: <3cb9eaf89bf7d6a74d1cecf63b5b5860@anon.efga.org>



Jam Six

Six






From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Nov  6 17:43:42 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:43:42 +0800
Subject: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street	 musician protocol)
In-Reply-To: <v0311073fb08806bd261a@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199711070123.UAA26060@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0311073fb08806bd261a@[139.167.130.248]>, on 11/06/97 
   at 06:44 PM, Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com> said:

>--- begin forwarded text


>X-Sender: hutchinson at click.ncri.com
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:52:30 -0500
>To: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
>From: hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
>Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street
>musician protocol)
>Cc: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
>Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

>Robert Hettinga wrote:

>>A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
>>auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
>>bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
>>networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
>>the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
>>information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
>>information process bites the dust.

>Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information was
>stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin to
>*persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes and
>Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
>range of parameters (including price, usage context, and any other
>variable for which you can imagine having a certificate).  Whats
>fundamentally different about what are generically referred to as secure
>envelopes, is that they can maintain controls *indefinitely*
>(persistence), across an un-
>known, ad hoc, web of distribution over which one otherwise has no
>control.  And yes, this can all work even in a completely disconnected
>environment (laptop at 35,000 feet).

>They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
>holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new
>ways, based on entirely new (or old) business models, that take advantage
>of rich/elaborate conditions for usage (e.g. you can view this picture
>anonymously, but it will cost you 2X as much, and you can only get it at
>low resolution, and you can't view it at all unless you can prove that
>you don't live in the Middle East).  No certificate for these conditions?
>Sorry, no content.

>They are based the same basic stuff (public key cryptography of course)
>that *can* fuel wild anarchic visions of anonymous exchange.  ;)

>But they aren't at all deterministic of any particular economic model.

Well how exactly does one prevent data from being stolen once it has been
unlocked? I pay my 2X to view the picture anonymously and now I copy it
save it and distribute it worldwide. I fail to see how any
encryption/watermark scheme can prevent me from doing so.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGJtMI9Co1n+aLhhAQGFlAQAokcnZwm0n4yfPfKge6oJD01xU2OgwAAG
ewQpeRZZWBvo86OgYEH9cNOX8JnGodmA70KeRNeyK1MeZl62RFj76IrPZkCCCB9w
42g9Y9AKevmKC+mVWhW7Q1IaidRs6nCj/uIzCtPwS/dIwdISE9bTyAbZIXV1xEOz
hboWKKX/fXM=
=Hoo8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Thu Nov  6 18:37:03 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:37:03 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0879c165aec@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971106194907.2054B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>




No, you die on your 30th birthday, when you ride the carrousel.

The insurance plan would only work if there was a significantly less than 
one-in-a-million chance of having the disease. Otherwise, the cost will 
be more than one dollar. The rates would be lower if you buy your policy 
well in advance, since the disease never strikes before you are 30 - 
there's money to be made on holding your premium, and you jsut might die 
of something else before requiring treatment.

As Tim pointed out, however, if you can be tested prior to obtaining the
insurance, without admitting to it, you would not obtain the insurance
unless the test showed that you had the disease. The price of the policy
would therefore be $1,000,000 or so, with minor adjustments. 

-r.w.

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:03 PM -0700 11/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >John Kelsey <kelsey at plnet.net> writes:
> >> Suppose there is some genetic disease that kills its victims on
> >> their 31st birthday, unless they get a $1,000,000 treatment first.
> >> Before I have taken the test for this disease, I have to accept a
> >> certain risk--if I find out I have the disease, I have to raise a
> >> million dollars in the next few months.  After I have taken the test
> >> and gotten back the results, there's no more risk involved (assuming
> >> the test is perfect)--I either have the disease or I don't.
> 
> I want to say one more thing about the example John Kelsey cites here.
> 
> That million dollar disease example is not too compelling to me. For
> starters, there are literally hundreds of millions of persons on the planet
> who are expected to die from various diseases or nutritional deficiencies
> for lack of, not a million dollar treatment, not a $100,000 treatment, not
> even a $1000 treatment...
> 
> No, there are billions who will die early (in childhood, early youth, etc.)
> for want of treatments or supplements costing a few hundred dollars.
> 
> Not that I support forcibly extorting money from those who have it to give
> to these wretches.
> 
> Which means I can honestly tell the "million dollar disease" guy: "I hope
> you saved up a million dollars."
> 
> >> Before the test, though, insurance might be useful--I could
> >> essentially place a bet with someone that I had the disease--I pay
> >> $1, and get a million dollars back if my test comes back
> >> positive--just enough to pay for my treatment.
> >
> >The insurance company would have no financial incentive to take on
> >such risks -- I reckon they'd sooner let the wanna-be customer die.
> >Nasty, but it's reality.
> 
> And underwriters do this all the time. That is, they fine-tune their
> estimates of risks and adjust premiums accordingly.
> 
> If Joe Patient makes a bet on this million dollar disease, but won't let me
> see any test reports, or won't let me test him independently, I as an
> undewriter am going to make the assumption he knows something I don't know.
> And his premium is going to go way, way up.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> 
> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Thu Nov  6 18:46:09 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:46:09 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <03fc89ba5c3283279c439ca450c74fc1@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971106200322.2054C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>





On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Two ways to tell if the person has had the test:
> 
> A) The company performing the test keeps track of everyone who has had it.
> This could be by some biometric ID, perhaps even a DNA fingerprint.
> 
> B) The company performing the test marks people who have had it.  They
> could have a harmless radioactive tracer injected.  This would degrade
> after a while but it could be used to see if the test had been taken
> within some time interval.

Something on your palm changes color.

> 
> Both of these require that all companies able to issue the test cooperate
> and that there is no black market source of testing.
> 
> 

For $1,000,000 a pop, there WILL be a black market.

The best "black market" scam would be set up by the insurer, to 
surreptitiously determine who not to insure. YOU think you're getting 
tested on the sly, and you are actually paying extra to compromise your 
insurability.

-r.w.






From attila at hun.org  Thu Nov  6 19:08:54 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:08:54 +0800
Subject: FEMA site using cookies
Message-ID: <19971107.025151.attila@hun.org>

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From fmouse at fmp.com  Thu Nov  6 20:54:57 1997
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:54:57 +0800
Subject: plugin to sell digital files in cyberspace announced!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971106223930.00914ae0@linux.fmp.com>



>wow, I have been thinking that netscape/microsoft would put
>something like this in their browser and that this would
>kickstart the microcurrency market. however, it sounds like
>someone has preempted them for the moment and
>built a plugin. this is an extremely significant development
>imho. I don't know how credible they are (the notice was
>spam) but it's a step in the right direction, and the
>creation of a whole new market I predict.

I looked at their website and it looks rather fishy to me.  Several issues
and questions are obvious, not the least being the observation that this is
an absolutely fabulous way to collect a bunch of credit card numbers.
There is no information on the website to say where I-Vendor is located, or
any way to judge whether it's even a legit company.  The website is on AOL,
so it's real ownership is effectivley concealed, and the owners could be
over the border into Mexico with a hard drive full of stolen CC numbers and
no one would be the wiser until it was too late :-(  

A legit domain name and website to use it on are pretty cheap, and make
obvious business sense for a legit business - likewise for a phone number,
which is also absent from the web pages.  Both provide business points of
contact and both provide trackability.  Maybe I-Vendor doesn't want
trackability.  Hmmmm.

So I download an exe file from a nearly anonymous site on AOL and run it to
find out more about it?  No thanks!!!  It looks too much like a juicy worm
on a hook to this fish.

Lindsay Haisley                   (______)
FMP Computer Services               (oo)        "The bull 
fmouse at fmp.com                /------\/            stops here!"
Austin, Texas, USA           / |    ||  
512-259-1190                *  ||---||             * * * * * *
                               ~~   ~~        http://www.fmp.com






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Nov  6 21:36:28 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:36:28 +0800
Subject: From Our Friends at the Fed
Message-ID: <v0311070eb08852eb87a8@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:23:25 -0800
From: jmuller at brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Subject: From Our Friends at the Fed
To: rah at shipwright.com
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.sneaker.net id
XAA28997

     Thought this missive from the Federal Reserve (SR Letter 97-28 for
     those who insist on a formal citation) might be of interest.  Not sure
     if it's e$ or dcsb or cypherpunk-type material or none of the above,
     so I punt and let you decide.  Cheers.

     John Muller
     mailto:jmuller at brobeck.com



     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     --
     Suggested Cover Letter


     To the Chief Executive Officer or General Manager of Each State Member
     Bank, Bank Holding Company, State Chartered, Non-Insured U.S. Branch
     or Agency of a Foreign Bank, and Edge and Agreement Corporation in
     Your District


     Dear ______________________:


              The Federal Bureau of Investigation, working with Federal
     Reserve staff and representatives from the other federal banking
     agencies as well as other federal law enforcement agencies, developed
     the attached guidance concerning the reporting of violations of the
     federal criminal statute relating to computer crimes, 18 U.S.C.
     � 1030 (Fraud and Related Activity in Connection with Computers) in
     Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs).  The guidance is intended to
     facilitate the timely and accurate reporting of apparent violations of
     this law to law enforcement and bank supervisory agencies.


               The guidance describes the provisions of 18 U.S.C. � 1030
     and gives some examples of conduct that may violate the law.  It also
     tells you how to report violations in a SAR.


               We would appreciate you bringing this matter to the
     immediate attention of all personnel in your organization responsible
     for reporting suspicious activity.


               In the event you have any questions concerning this matter,
     please contact __________________________.


     Sincerely,


     [Reserve Bank Official]





     Attachment




     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     --



     GUIDANCE CONCERNING THE REPORTING OF COMPUTER-RELATED CRIMES
     BY FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS



              This guidance is provided in order to explain the federal
     criminal statute relating to computer crimes, 18 U.S.C. � 1030, and to
     ensure the timely and accurate reporting of apparent violations of the
     statute to law enforcement authorities.


     Background


              Regulations issued by the Federal Reserve, OCC, FDIC, OTS,
     and NCUA generally require banks, thrifts, credit unions, the U.S.
     branches and agencies of foreign banks, and other types of financial
     institutions to file Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) whenever they
     detect any known or suspected federal criminal law violation or
     suspicious activity.  The SAR system facilitates the reporting of
     suspected criminal activity and money laundering in a standard format
     to a single collection point, from which the information may be
     rapidly disseminated to appropriate law enforcement agencies.  SARs
     play a critical role in collecting information about criminal activity
     affecting the financial community.  Under the five financial
     institutions supervisory agencies' current SAR rules, a financial
     institution is required to report any known or suspected criminal law
     violation involving an insider, regardless of amount.  A financial
     institution is also required to report any known or suspected federal
     criminal law violation that involves or aggregates more than $25,000
     in the event no suspect can be identified--a threshold that drops to
     $5,000 if a potential suspect can be identified.


               The current SAR form includes in Part III, Box 37, a listing
     of 17 various categories of criminal law violations and suspicious
     activities that a financial institution can check.  The categories
     include check, credit and wire transfer fraud,
     defalcation/embezzlement and mysterious disappearances, and also
     include a general category under "Other" that is to be used in the
     event the offense or activity does not appear to fit any of the
     delineated types of crimes.  There is no category in Part III, Box 37,
     specifically reserved for violations of the provisions of the U.S.
     criminal code relating to computer crimes--18 U.S.C. � 1030 (Fraud and
     Related Activity in Connection with Computers).


     Criminal Law Relating to Computers


                Computers and computer networks are at the heart of
     operations of a modern financial institution.  Criminals--both inside
     and outside of financial institutions-- recognize the potential
     vulnerability of computer systems.  Consequently, financial
     institutions must be cognizant of the federal computer crime law, 18
     U.S.C. � 1030. This statute specifically includes as a "protected
     computer," among other computers shielded by the statute, any computer
     exclusively for the use of a financial institution, or, if not
     exclusively for such use, used by or for a financial institution where
     the conduct constituting the offense affects that use.


                 Financial institutions should pay particular attention to
     three provisions of 18 U.S.C. � 1030.  Section 1030(a)(2) specifically
     prohibits intentionally accessing a protected computer to obtain
     certain kinds of information without authority or in excess of
     authority.  Not only does it generally prohibit improperly obtaining
     information from any "protected" computer, but it specifically
     prohibits improperly obtaining information contained in a "financial
     record" of a financial institution.  The provision may also apply to
     an individual who hacks into a financial institution computer system.
     "Financial record" is defined as information derived from any record
     held by a financial institution pertaining to a customer's
     relationship with the institution.


                 Another provision applicable to financial institutions is
     the prohibition on using a "protected" computer without authorization
     or in excess of authorization to commit fraud.  The provisions of 18
     U.S.C. � 1030(a)(4) criminalize the knowing use of a protected
     computer without authorization or in excess or authorization with
     intent to defraud, and by means of such conduct furthering the
     intended fraud and obtaining anything of value.  Thus, an individual
     who intentionally uses another person's home banking software and
     purloins that person's password in order to transfer money
     fraudulently into his or her personal bank account has committed a
     crime.


                  The third provision--18 U.S.C. � 1030(a)(5)--with
     applications to financial institutions is the prohibition on
     intentional access without authorization that results in "damage" to a
     protected computer.  Damage is defined to include any impairment to
     the integrity or availability of data, a program, a system, or
     information that causes loss aggregating at least $5,000 in value
     during any one-year period.  An example may involve a disgruntled
     former employee who maintains a "back door" into the computer system
     and uses it to introduce a virus that disrupts the system.  Another
     example may involve an intruder who causes a system outage by flooding
     an institution's computer system with e-mail requests for information.


                 Other provisions of 18 U.S.C. � 1030 applicable to
     financial institutions include subsection (a)(6), which outlaws
     trafficking in passwords knowingly and with intent to defraud.
     Subsection (a)(7) prohibits transmitting threats to cause damage to a
     protected computer with intent to extort money or any other thing of
     value from any legal entity, specifically including financial
     institutions.  This prohibition applies regardless of whether any
     actual damage is caused, or whether the offender actually had the
     ability to cause such damage.


                A violation of 18 U.S.C. � 1030 can result in a fine or
     imprisonment for up to ten years.


     Guidance


                A financial institution should report on a SAR any activity
     that appears to be violative of 18 U.S.C. � 1030.  If a reportable
     offense is detected, a financial institution should check Box 37r,
     marked "Other", and describe as completely as possible in Part VII,
     the narrative section of the SAR, the nature of the illegal or
     suspicious activity.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Nov  6 22:05:02 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:05:02 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <345E53EF.14BB@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <199711070545.XAA01094@smoke.suba.com>



> TruthMonger wrote:
> <snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>
> Monger:
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

	Well, with different parents, you'd have felt right at home in a 
brown shirt.

> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

	You just have no ideas of your own. 

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

	Actually, you are about as right as the bastard that torched your
ancestors.

> "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
> - Darth Vader

	Even your choice of "people" to quote gives away your intentions. 

	
	






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Nov  6 22:29:05 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:29:05 +0800
Subject: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>
Message-ID: <199711070615.AAA01201@smoke.suba.com>



> I wrote down most of the questions used for their  profiling scheme. If
> anyone is interested I will send them if requested. If anyone is interested
> in creating a page dedicated to these profiling schemes(American, Israeli,
> anyone)  I would be happy to contribute. 
> send security suggestions to: hico at hotmail.com

	If anyone is really interested in doing this, I have server space 
available. Send mail to petro at encodex.com.






From cableus at ecast.net  Fri Nov  7 14:45:11 1997
From: cableus at ecast.net (cableus at ecast.net)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:45:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Save Money...Own your own Cable Descrambler!
Message-ID: <bulk.19323.19971107180807@im1.ecast.net>


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From gwb at gwb.com.au  Fri Nov  7 14:49:21 1997
From: gwb at gwb.com.au (Global Web Builders)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:49:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pauline Hanson's One Nation Monthly Newsletter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971108082323.10f7954e@mail.pronet.net.au>


Issue 1.4, November 1997

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

PLEASE NOTE: No unsolicited email is sent. If you do not want to be on the
mailing list please say "REMOVE" in the subject line and return this message
in the body.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

Dear supporter in NSW,

Pauline Hanson's One Nation continues to grow an extraordinary rate.

There are now over 200 branches of the party nationwide - this just twenty
eight weeks after the April launch.

The interest in what we have to say and the level of our support is best
demonstrated by comparing the recent visits of National Senator Bill O'Chee
and Pauline Hanson to the traditional National heartland of Gympie in
central Queensland. At their respective dinners O'Chee managed to attract
just 12 people while Hanson attracted a full house of 400!

These are challenging times ahead for the party. With this explosive growth
and interest the Manly head office of One Nation has come under enormous
pressure with calls from the media, the growing need to manage the new
branches and a number of related teething problems.

Please be patient if you find delays in One Nation responding to an inquiry.
This is due to the workload being faced by the Manly office.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

As you will have read Pauline Hanson's One Nation will contest the
Queensland state elections after an independent survey revealed that the
party had, conservatively, up to 27% support in certain electorates. 

If you know of someone who would make a good candidate please contact Manly
office on (02) 9976 0283 for application forms. Please note closing date for
nominations is December 1st.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

There have been a number of One Nation press releases during October. These
can be viewed at:

http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/press

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Pauline Hanson's on-line Working Group:

There has been a tremendous response to the establishment of Pauline
Hanson's on-line Working Group and we thank those who have become involved
for their support.

If you would like to participate please email the following information for
consideration.

Name, Contact details (address, phone, fax), membership number (this is a
pre-requisite) and branch (default is Manly).

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Like any growing political organisation Pauline Hanson's One Nation needs
your financial support. Please help NOW if you are able... Their is an
on-line form that can be printed out and posted together with your donation at:

http://www.gwb.com.au/pledge.html

Let's get that donation-meter reading moving!




Pauline Hanson






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Nov  6 23:04:17 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:04:17 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b085a65a1f91@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711070645.AAA01308@smoke.suba.com>



> At 9:58 PM -0700 11/4/97, Eric Cordian wrote:
> See my other post on this topic. The Christian *LEFT* has been active for
> several decades in opposing U.S. involvement in wars, in aiding and
> abetting draft dodgers, in supporting Marxist regimes in Latin America, in
> establishing the Sanctuary Movement, in sabotaging ICBM production
> facilities, and in urging churchgoers to vote the agenda being pushed.
> So?
> Tax all churches or tax no churches, but don't give government the power to
> decide if a religion is "worthy" of special tax treatment.

	While I agree with some of your points, I would think that a clear line can
be drawn between Religions as expressed in organized churches, and religously 
oriented political organizations. Raplh Reed & Crew have distinctly different 
characteristics than does Da Pope. 

	I don't believe that the churches religious activities should be taxed or
regualted, however their commercial enterprises should be taxed like every other 
corporation.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov  7 00:43:40 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:43:40 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <778f0f4aea334245a9ecf97493e708c1@anon.efga.org>



Where can I get my hands on an anon-remailer that runs under Win95?  Does such a remailer even exist?  If not, why not?
        







From nobody at neva.org  Fri Nov  7 01:06:38 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:06:38 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711070852.CAA31307@multi26.netcomi.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Shostack wrote:
>Many insurance companies with Mutual in their name (Liberty Mutual is
>large in the Northeastern US) get that from being founded as mutual
>insurance companies, where you pay to be part of the mutual insurance
>group, and when you get sick, injured, etc, the group pays money
>towords your treatment.  I think it broke down with increases in
>mobility.  They were implicitly based on reputation capital, and were
>not highly fraud resistant.
>
>Adam's suggestion of a charity which only pays for the treatment of
>those who donate thus recreates an old system.

Mutual insurance companies are owned by the people who purchase their
policies.  The policy holders actually elect the management.  As there
are no policy holders who own a significant percentage of the
policies, the management of the companies do not have much feedback.
Surprisingly, they seem to function well.

However, these companies are not a thing of the past.  As of ten years
ago, the mutual life insurance companies managed about half the assets
in the life insurance market.

Many of them are quite old.  The Presbyterian Minister's Fund is the
oldest continuous life insurance company in the world.  It was founded
in 1759.

Mutuals are said to be formed when investors can't be found to provide
capital for the company.  A number of mutuals were formed in the
seventies to handle medical liability insurance which commercial
companies did not want to handle.  (It seems likely that somebody,
somewhere, was behaving irrationally. ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Fri Nov  7 02:39:07 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:39:07 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711071011.CAA00433@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>> Before the test, though, insurance might be useful--I could
>> essentially place a bet with someone that I had the disease--I pay
>> $1, and get a million dollars back if my test comes back
>> positive--just enough to pay for my treatment.
>
>The insurance company would have no financial incentive to take on
>such risks -- I reckon they'd sooner let the wanna-be customer die.
>Nasty, but it's reality.

They could charge an addtional $1 premium.

Insurance, if properly administered, is a bad bet for the customer if
we only pay attention to financial considerations.  However, the
customer can lose more than money, he or she can lose her life, which
is worth an up front premium to the insurance company.

The numbers we have been working with here are interesting, though.
Usually, the cost of the tests isn't justified by the information they
give us.  Presumably if the tests were economical, they would be
required.  Insurance companies do require checkups sometimes which is
really just a set of tests.

>And being a hard line anarcho capitalist, I draw the conclusion that
>if you can't afford to keep yourself alive, that is your problem.
>(Heartless ain't it:-)

In practice you might not be so heartless.  Even Monty Cantsin has
been known to help those who have fallen upon hard times.

The real philosophical question is whether other people should be
forced to support our charities.  (The real world question is whether
other people should be forced to support alleged charities.)

Those who advocate forced "charity" are making a curious assertion.
They themselves do not wish to dispense the charity they so highly
value, but they wish others to do so, at gunpoint if necessary.

I do not see any way in which such behavior may be defended as
civilized or decent.

>A charity could also refuse to help people who hadn't donated, if
>it chose.
>
>I bet it would work too, and a lot more efficiently than the
>government regulated setup now.

Many decades ago there used to be organizations called "mutual aid
societies".  They were sort of like mutual insurance companies, except
they may have been more flexible in the benefits they guaranteed.

They took care of whole sets of misfortunes for their members.  For
instance, if your house burned down or you were laid off, or whatever,
the other members of the society would help you get on your feet
again.  Note: the other members had a strong incentive to get you on
your feet.  (This cannot be said of welfare bureaucrats whose market
share dwindles the more they succeed.)

They were typically organized into local chapters which would then
belong to larger organizations which would, to some extent, insure
that the local chapter remained financially solvent.

The societies were more than insurance companies - they were also
social clubs.  This aspect was used to manage the moral hazard
problem.

These societies were tremendously successful.  A conservative estimate
of membership in the United States showed ten times as many people
belonged to these societies as belong to labor unions at the peak of
the labor movement.  Yet, they have been almost entirely ignored by
academia, probably because they do not fit nicely in a patronizing
ideological framework.

Tom Palmer of the Cato Institute has studied the subject.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From amp at pobox.com  Fri Nov  7 03:50:33 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:50:33 +0800
Subject: new lanl patent?
In-Reply-To: <v0311074ab0880af8248c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.878899242.amp@rcnu3077>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Some interesting hits for "data embedding" on IBM's patent server page...

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5671277
ISSUED: Sep. 23, 1997
FILED:  Oct. 21, 1994
Snip of abstract:  Additional data useful for the management of copies 
of a document for an image forming apparatus is embeddedin a hard 
copy of the document. The additional data is embedded in an inherent 
image of a document as pixels arranged in a prescribed format, and,
preferably, the size of the pixels is such as to not be easily 
recognized with the naked eye. 

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5659726
ISSUED: Aug. 19, 1997
FILED:  Feb. 23, 1995
ABSTRACT:   A method of embedding auxiliary information into a set of host 
data, such as a photograph, television signal, facsimile transmission, or 
identification card. All such host data contain intrinsic noise, allowing 
pixels in the host data which are nearly identical and which have values 
differing by less than the noise value to be manipulated and replaced with 
auxiliary data. As the embedding method does not change the elemental 
values of the host data, the auxiliary data do not noticeably affect the 
appearance or interpretation of the host data. By a substantially reverse 
process, the embedded auxiliary data can be retrieved easily by an 
authorized user. 


The patent office needs a fucking clue server. Hmmm... wonder if I can get a
patent for one?


- ------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 11/07/97
Time: 05:33:04
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
- ------------------------

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From nobody at neva.org  Fri Nov  7 05:14:27 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:14:27 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
Message-ID: <199711071306.HAA06073@multi26.netcomi.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>Java isn't so bad.  Just in time compilers are being shipped with
>some browsers (netscape on some platforms).  Sun now has native
>bigint library (good for you know what, and exportable because they
>haven't included the few lines required to implement public key
>encryption with it).

Okay, Java sounds pretty good.  The native bigint library clinches it!

>> While it may seem crazy to toss compatibility, it has some
>> advantages.  For instance, the only people who will use it are the
>> hardcore types.  I like the idea of an exclusive crypto system that
>> only cool people who are fairly with it use.
>
>I think there would be advantages to always tunneling the encrypted
>messages inside PGP, that way no snoops know you're using it, until
>it's too late.

Aside from political correctness issues, why not?  It would also be
nice to have an encrypted SMTP channel which happens to be riding on
IPSEC.

>> If the protocol doesn't accept multiple keys for a message it is
>> slightly CAK/GAK resistent.  And, it's a nice statement of intent.
>> It's also nice to have tools which help you to behave securely
>> without carefully thinking about it when you are using them.
>
>Forward secrecy is what you want for GAK resistance -- can't get much
>more GAK hostile than burning your keys seconds after message
>receipt.

The more I think about the more the separation of authentication keys
from communication keys seems like the way to go.  If both parties can
connect to each other's machines in real time, then a negotiated key
which is discarded is great.  More often everybody's offline, but that
just means you have to publish many different communications keys,
perhaps sorted by hours.  (Given remailer lag you might have to keep
communications keys around for a day or two after expiration, but
that's not too bad.)

>> The randseed.bin file has always bothered me.  What we really want
>> is some good sources of entropy in which we have tremendous
>> confidence.
>
>What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
>rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
>your passphrase.

It's also complicated and hard to understand.  The Right Thing (TM) is
to simply solve the entropy problem correctly.

>> >I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
>> >more suspect.
>> 
>> Well, neither of these would be good for a one time pad, of course.
>
>Linux's /dev/random might not be bad.  There is some real entropy in
>key strokes and mouse movements, and they are quite conservative
>about entropy estimation.  You can easily make it more conservative
>-- XOR together a load of it to derive a smaller key.

The problem with computers generating entropy is that they are
complicated machines which are designed to be deterministic.  While it
seems reasonable that keystrokes and mouse movements have some
entropy, its hard to really convince yourself that there couldn't be
patterns arising from the OS somehow.  For example, maybe the sample
times form weird patterns which are related to the scheduler.

By all means this can be XORed in, but it seems dangerous to rely upon
it if you are trying to be hardcore and use one time pads.

>> It would be neat to have, say, three sources of hardware randomness
>> and then XOR the result with the above pseudo random output.
>
>That'd be fine.  Personally not being a hardware type, I am
>suspicious of hardware RNGs.. I can't tell when they are going
>wrong.. failure modes can be dangerous (whoops lead fell of geiger
>tube), etc.

Most plausible failure modes in hardware should be detectable with the
usual tests for "randomness".

>Software and computers are easier to understand.  Provided you XOR
>the lot together you should be fine though.

Software and computers are highly complex devices and we don't truly
understand every aspect of their operation.  We can say it's unlikely
that there are patterns in the bits they generate, but if we resorting
to one time pads, it seems to me that the entropy question has to be
nailed down completely.  (Not that I have a good solution, yet.  As
you pointed out, one time pads consume a lot of entropy.  It takes a
long time to flip a coin 1.5 MB * 1024 bytes/MB * 8 bits/byte times!)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From tia at amateurland.com  Fri Nov  7 21:16:17 1997
From: tia at amateurland.com (tia)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:16:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: THANKS FOR YOUR BUSINESS--SEE WHAT'S NEW!
Message-ID: <199711080513.VAA00355@italy.it.earthlink.net>


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From dbrown at alaska.net  Fri Nov  7 06:48:34 1997
From: dbrown at alaska.net (Crisavec)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:48:34 +0800
Subject: FEMA site using cookies
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971107053024.007f2100@alaska.net>



Attila T. Hun typethed the following...
                             
>>         The USMC 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey:            #46. "The U.S.
>>government declares a ban on the              possession, sale,
>>transportation, and transfer               of all non-sporting firearms
>>...consider the              following statement:                        
>>                         
>>>                  I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or        
>>>         resist confiscation of firearms banned by the                
>>>U.S. government..."                                      
>
>  they were looking for a yes/no answer --no maybes.  if anybody thinks
>this is a joke --it was not; it was given to most units  at 29 Palms,
>Pendleton, LeJuene, and Paris Island. the percentage responses were
>interesting:  men with less than 5 years service were 90% "yes" --grizzled
>old NCOMs with 15 or  more years were less than 15% "yes."   shows what the
>federal government educational system is capable of conditioning with a
>little help from movies and television. subliminally, was has been
>glorified by the merchants of death:  arms manufacturers and power hungry
>politicians. --   

This doesn't surprise me at all Attila.They don't teach the constitution in
High School anymore. That accounts for the lower ranks. The NCOM's answers
are to be expected, They STRESS Posse Commitais<sp?> and the constitution
for ALL noncom's. It's part of the testing for promotion to E-5 and up.
Most of the noncom's have been in long enough to be thorouly  disillusioned
by the military in general. The only thing keeping a lot of them in is
enertia...



 --Dave

 Any neural system sufficiently complex to generate the axioms
   of arithmetic is too complex to be understood by itself.
                                       Kaekel's Conjecture






From listmanager at orange.redmans.com  Fri Nov  7 06:48:34 1997
From: listmanager at orange.redmans.com (R. Jason Cronk)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:48:34 +0800
Subject: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street	 musician protocol)
Message-ID: <v03102802b088d648c4e3@[199.227.220.35]>




>From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii at invweb.net>
>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 97 19:12:16 -0600
>To: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
>Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, cryptography at c2.net
>Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street
>musician protocol)
>

<SNIP>

>
>Well how exactly does one prevent data from being stolen once it has been
>unlocked? I pay my 2X to view the picture anonymously and now I copy it
>save it and distribute it worldwide. I fail to see how any
>encryption/watermark scheme can prevent me from doing so.

Most of my discussion on this subject took place in DCSB mailing list,
which I didn't cc to cypherpunks or cryptography at c2.net.

Anyway, the gist the most ERMs (Electronic Right Management) is that the
"unlocking" has to be integral with the playing.  In other words, you don't
pay for and then get an "unlocked" version on your computer, but rather the
player and decryption mechanism are integrated to the point that they can
be unintegrated.  Still this doesn't prevent one from sticking a microphone
up next to the speaker to pointing a camcorder at the video screen, but it,
in theory, prevents one from making an exact digital duplicate.

This is not to say that I agree that ERM will work.  I am of the impression
that market forces will negate the benefit of said system.  Its easy when
there are just a few media producers, but with hundreds of thousands vying
for attention, those that seek to control their content through ERM are at
a disadvantage in the marketspace.

Jason Cronk








From ulf at fitug.de  Fri Nov  7 06:49:14 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:49:14 +0800
Subject: french cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199711070004.TAA21854@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <9711071426.AA15936@public.uni-hamburg.de>



> > Btw: did anybody scan their photo's of the HIP '97 (in this case

There are some images and videos by Joichi Ito. Follow the link at
http://www.hip97.nl

> Je re�ois, disons, 20 messages CP par jour.  Robert �limine les flame wars et je lui en 
> suis reconnaissant.  M�me Tim May n'est apparemment plus sur CP ces temps-cis.

Mais si.  Try http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpnks/current/ to see what
you are missing.  (BTW, last I checked, I couldn't find any e$pam
subscription info at the e$ web site.)






From mouzairua57 at msn.com  Fri Nov  7 22:55:52 1997
From: mouzairua57 at msn.com (mouzairua57 at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:55:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Send Targeted Email, Make $$$
Message-ID: <199711081105EAA53293@post.net.tr>


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From 30501668 at compuserve.com  Fri Nov  7 23:12:11 1997
From: 30501668 at compuserve.com (30501668 at compuserve.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:12:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The New De Facto Standard....
Message-ID: <157834865234.GBB21218@compuserve.com>


{Removal instructions at bottom... }


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From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Nov  7 07:46:00 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:46:00 +0800
Subject: Totally Unbreakable VME
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971107152649.00a4af90@pop.pipeline.com>



News report Nov 7, 97:

AT&T, Hewlett Packard, Intel Corporation, Dell Computers, and 
many other leading computer corporations have been added to the 
challenge list by Meganet Corporation. The challenge started 
last week with Bill Gates, now some of his peers have an opportunity 
to validate or discredit the bold claim that Meganet's VME 
(Virtual Matrix Encryption) is totally unbreakable. 

Unbreakable encryption is the only answer to security 
in our electronic world. This is graphically illustrated 
by the recent report from the National Security Agency
reporting the open market availability of a $10 chip that 
can test up to 200 million keys per second. The 56-bit key, 
government and banking standard, can be compromised in 
twelve (12) seconds with brute force using ASIC
(Application-specific Integrated Circuits) chips. 

Meganet has the answer with its new VME (Virtual Matrix 
Encryption). The impenetrable VME also has extreme speed, 
much faster than any existing program available today. 

Major computer companies are already starting discussions 
to acquire the rights to market this incredible new data 
encryption system. More information about this
exciting new technology can be found at: www.meganet.com

----------

Hmm, wonder if it has impenetrable GAK and CAK options.






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov  7 08:23:24 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:23:24 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: *LCS - DLS Lecture - Robert Morris - NSA*]
Message-ID: <v0311070cb088e61abf06@[139.167.130.246]>




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:02:04 -0500
From: Richard Lethin <lethin at etcons.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Subject: [Fwd: *LCS - DLS Lecture - Robert Morris - NSA*]
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Richard Lethin <lethin at etcons.com>



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Message-Id: <v03020903b088c96cdfa8@[18.49.0.239]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:46:20 -0400
To: seminar at ai.mit.edu, seminars at lcs.mit.edu, help-teach at lcs.mit.edu,
        assistants at ai.mit.edu, mas-students at media.mit.edu,
        support at media.mit.edu, eecsfaculty at eecs.mit.edu,
        dchamber at warren.med.harvard.edu, wmurphy at mediaone.net,
        Kenneth_Burrell/CAM/Lotus at lotus.com, vijak at eecs.harvard.edu,
        CMCampos at aol.com, Stephanie_Leung at cmp4.ccmail.compuserve.com
From: Barbara Barry <bbarry at hq.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: *LCS - DLS Lecture - Robert Morris - NSA*

(Please excuse multiple posts)

*SEMINAR ANNOUNCEMENT ******************************

MIT Lab for Computer Science 	Distinguished Lecturer Series

Thursday, November 20, 1997	Lecture, 3:30pm
Location 34-101		Refreshments, 3:15pm
50 Vassar Street, Cambridge


Robert Morris, National Security Agency, Retired

Protection of Valuable Information

Over the past few decades, there has been a considerable shift in the area
of protection and exploitation of valuable information.  In the past, the
relevant skills were exercised by governments to protect or exploit
military and diplomatic information.  Nowadays, much of the interest in
information protection is by individuals wishing to protect their
privacy and by organizations wishing to protect their financial interests.

Here are the that come up that are worth some thought:

- does the breakup of the Soviet Union significantly reduce the
exploitation of U.S. Government information?

- has the world wide spread of ATMs (Automatic Teller Machines)
led to a great deal of electronic theft - and, if so how are they
protected?

- is cryptography more important than careful handling of information
and is cryptanalysis more important than burglary, bribery, and
blackmail?

Host: Michael Dertouzos

***************************************************
for the DLS season schedule check out
http://www.lcs.mit.edu/web_project/dls97.html
***************************************************







--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From billp at nmol.com  Fri Nov  7 08:47:08 1997
From: billp at nmol.com (billp)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:47:08 +0800
Subject: NSA lawsuit recent documents
Message-ID: <3463543E.ECC@nmol.com>

Guys,

I think NSA tangled with the wrong groups.

Let's hope for settlement.




From FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com  Fri Nov  7 09:55:35 1997
From: FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:55:35 +0800
Subject: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street	 musician protocol)
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749341D@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>



>Well how exactly does one prevent data from being stolen once it has
been
>unlocked? I pay my 2X to view the picture anonymously and now I copy it
>save it and distribute it worldwide. I fail to see how any
>encryption/watermark scheme can prevent me from doing so.

The short answer: you can't prevent theft of copyrighted data if the
user has physical control of the computer the data resides on.

The long answer: depending on the OS and the hardware, you can make it
difficult enough that it is not worth the effort for low-value data.  As
a veteran of the copy-protection wars (so, am I one of just 3 people on
this list approaching/into middle age? (hi Tim and William :))), I know
that it is impossible to protect unencrypted data if the user has
physical control of the system.  Unfortunately, in order to use the
data, you have to decrypt the darn stuff!!  Especially with the OSes
commonly in use on PCs (DOS, Win3.1, Win95, MacOS), there is very little
memory protection going on, so snarfing the data can be done entirely
through software by a determined cracker -- there is no need to resort
to hardware hacks.

Technological protection against theft of intellectual property is like
the search for the Philosopher's Stone during the Middle Ages -- many
are seduced by the promise, but it is a promise that cannot be kept by
personal computers.  If the display device is/incorporates a
general-purpose computer that can be physically accessed, then the data
in the display device is subject to compromise.  The very flexibility
and accessibility of a general-purpose computing device is its undoing
when it comes to protected unencrypted data -- and data has to be
unencrypted to be used.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm at indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"






From 56810465  Sat Nov  8 01:58:09 1997
From: 56810465 (56810465)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:58:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox everyday? I am !!
Message-ID: <75409320848hsu48040greet-me.com>


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
I Actually Read a Piece of e-mail and I'm Going to Europe on the Proceeds!

Hello!

My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom,wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy line, I
finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought, "OK, I give in, I'm going to try
this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other hand, there's
nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly mailed four $5
bills and, after receiving the reports, sent out some e-mail advertisements.
 After reading the reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for
free!

I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks, my P.O.
box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunned by all the money that keeps rolling in!

My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with 40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be prepared to
eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.  If you can open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                  This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
        PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may
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This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not require
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never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank!

This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come true!
 When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!
Thousands of people have used this program to:
     - Raise capital to start their own business
     - Pay off debts
     - Buy homes, cars, etc.
This is your chance, don't pass it up!

OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next to
nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all multi-level businesses, you will
increase your business building your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-level
business online (via your computer).

The products in this program are a series of four business and financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail" will
include:
     -$5.00 cash
     -The name and number of the report they are ordering
     -The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING
BENEFITS!

*******I N S T R U C T I O N S*********

This is what you MUST do:
1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

*For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE
ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a
problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report.

*When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports.
 You will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer
and resell them.

*Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four reports.  Save
them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the
1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2. IMPORTANT-DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each
report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed
below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the majority of your
profits.  Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it
doesn't work if you change it.!!  Remember, this method has been tested, and i
f you alter it , it will not work.

a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this advertisement and remove
the address under REPORT #4.  This person has made it through the cycle and
is no doubt counting their 50 grand!

c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.

d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

f.  Insert your name and address in the REPORT #1 position.

  Please make sure that you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it
to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter.

4. Now you,re ready to start an advertising campaign on the WORLDWIDE WEB!
 Advertising on the WEB is very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE
places to advertise.  Another avenue you could use for advertising is e-mail
lists.  You can buy these lists for under $20 for 2,000 addresses or you can
pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report
that they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL
ORDERS!  This will gaurantee that the e-mail THEY send out with YOUR name and
address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive
the report!

AVAILABLE REPORTS
******Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME******

Notes:
-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
-  Make sure that the cash is concealed by wrapping it in two sheets of paper
-  On one of those sheets of paper, include:  1.) the NUMBER and NAME of the
report you are ordering, 2.) your e-mail address and 3.) your postal address
(in case of problems) It is suggested that you rent a mailbox to avoid having
your home address being sent to millions of peolple.
__________________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "Making Millions Through Advertising"

Order REPORT #1 From:
         MJP Enterprises
         PO BOX 30404
         Alexandria, VA 22310
___________________________________________________________
REPORT #2 "Creating Your Ad"

Order REPORT #2 From:
         GCM, Dept. C
         8867 Highland Rd. Suite 112
         Baton Rouge, LA 70808
____________________________________________________________
REPORT #3 " Sales and Product Description"

Order REPORT #3 From:
      A.R. Ball
         1428 Josephine St.---suite D
         New Orleans, LA 70130
_____________________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "Online Advertising"

Order REPORT #4 From:
         F & T Marketing Group
         PO BOX 305
         Binghamton, NY 13902
_____________________________________________________________

   HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU MONEY$

Let's say that you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
 Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger
response.)  Also assume that everyone else in your organization gets ONLY 10
downline members.  Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results
below.

1st level-your 10 members with $5........................................
.$50
2nd level-10 members from those 10($5 x 100)..........................$500
3rd level-10 members from those 100($5 x 1,000)......................$5,000
4th level-10 members from those 1,000($5 x 10,000).................$50,000
                                       THIS TOTALS-----------$55,500

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate on;y recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people
to participate!  Most peolple get 100's of participants.  THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20).  You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is
FREE!

*****TIPS FOR SUCCESS*****

*  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow the

    directions accurately.

*  Send for the four reports immediately so you will have them when the
orders
   start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report
to comply with the U.S. Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 3005 in
the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regulations vol. 16, sections 255 and
436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money
received."

*  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

*  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
instructions exactly
   the results will undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

*  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

*****YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*****

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue
advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive
at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising until
you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN
RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

*****T E S T I M O N I A L S*****
This Program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rule
of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and
you'll lose alot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it works.  It
really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost
to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and
you'll be on your way to financial security.                  Sean
McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

My name is Frank.  My wife Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD.  I am a cost
accountant with a major U.S. corporation and I make pretty good money.  When
I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail".  I
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and the
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within 2 weeks she had received
over 50 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!  I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't work.  I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "hobby".  I
did have 7 more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and
it's not for me.  We owe it all to MLM.                          Frank T.,
Bel-AQir, MD

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of
money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked this
out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.                     Sincerely
Yours, Phillip A. Brown

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am, I decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy, was I surprised when I
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile, it got
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll
make more money this year than in any 10 years of my life before.  The nice
thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people
live.  There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                     Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have quit our jobs,
and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.
 The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it.  For
your sake, and for your family's sake, don't pass up this golden opportunity.
 Good luck and happy spending!
                                        Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!!!!!!







From vplain at hotmail.com  Fri Nov  7 10:21:45 1997
From: vplain at hotmail.com (virginia plain)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:21:45 +0800
Subject: wewease de secwet weapon
Message-ID: <19971107180619.8888.qmail@hotmail.com>



tell sam to eat the fruit before seven
don't forget to spit out the seeds.virginia

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From geeman at best.com  Fri Nov  7 10:28:09 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:28:09 +0800
Subject: Totally Unbreakable VME
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d5900@best.com>



It has just about all the earmarks of snakeoil.
It's got:
"breakthrough"
all sorts of nifty acronyms
sounds like a stream algorithm by another name
you of course can't get the source code
it's going to "revolutionize" cryptography... 
.... yawn ....
Remember Elementrix?

"In fact, Bill Gates and several of his competitors have been personally
challenged to validate or discredit these claims. "

I'll go one better than that! "Bill - you and your buddies all give me
$1,000,000"
I think I'll cut a press release right now ...



At 10:26 AM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>News report Nov 7, 97:
>
>AT&T, Hewlett Packard, Intel Corporation, Dell Computers, and 
>many other leading computer corporations have been added to the 
>challenge list by Meganet Corporation. The challenge started 
>last week with Bill Gates, now some of his peers have an opportunity 
>to validate or discredit the bold claim that Meganet's VME 
>(Virtual Matrix Encryption) is totally unbreakable. 
>
>Unbreakable encryption is the only answer to security 
>in our electronic world. This is graphically illustrated 
>by the recent report from the National Security Agency
>reporting the open market availability of a $10 chip that 
>can test up to 200 million keys per second. The 56-bit key, 
>government and banking standard, can be compromised in 
>twelve (12) seconds with brute force using ASIC
>(Application-specific Integrated Circuits) chips. 
>
>Meganet has the answer with its new VME (Virtual Matrix 
>Encryption). The impenetrable VME also has extreme speed, 
>much faster than any existing program available today. 
>
>Major computer companies are already starting discussions 
>to acquire the rights to market this incredible new data 
>encryption system. More information about this
>exciting new technology can be found at: www.meganet.com
>
>----------
>
>Hmm, wonder if it has impenetrable GAK and CAK options.
>
>
>






From declan at well.com  Fri Nov  7 11:10:34 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:10:34 +0800
Subject: Return of the Living Zundel, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007803b089126cf351@[168.161.105.141]>



****************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1561,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
November 6, 1997

Return of the Living Zundel
by Chris Stamper (cstamper at pathfinder.com)

        Does Ernst Zundel have the right to deny the Holocaust and brag
   about it on the Net? In the U.S. the answer is unequivocally yes. But
   in Canada, where Zundel resides, the Human Rights Commission has been
   holding hearings on whether the "Zundelsite" violates the country's
   hate speech laws. If Zundel loses the case, he'll be asked to pay
   damages and take any offending articles off the web site.

        "A lot of people think this case is about censoring the Net,"
   said Bernie Farber, national director of community relations for the
   Canadian Jewish Congress. "It isn't. It's about a Canadian violating
   Canadian law. In Canada and in every other Western democracy but the
   U.S., there are limits to free speech and one of those points is
   vilification. I should feel I have as much right to get on the Net and
   not feel demeaned because I'm a part of a particular group."

        A simple enough concept, except that the Canadian tribunal has no
   explicit jurisdiction over the Internet. However, it can regulate the
   phone system, and if the commission can equate Zundel's modems with
   answering machines and voice mail, it could set a precedent for
   regulating speech on the Net.

        Zundel claims that the whole case is simply an attempt by the
   commission to expand its powers into the realm of cyberspace. But then
   Zundel also claims that Hitler maintained a secret UFO base in
   Antarctica.

        The only certain truth about Zundel's case is that he's basking
   in free publicity as a result of the flap. "I was a nobody before they
   started hounding me," he told The Netly News. "Now everyone spells my
   name right. Every Canadian knows I think the Holocaust is a racket."

[...]







From emc at wire.insync.net  Fri Nov  7 11:17:12 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:17:12 +0800
Subject: Totally Unbreakable VME
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971107152649.00a4af90@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199711071910.NAA14321@wire.insync.net>



John Young Reports:
 
> AT&T, Hewlett Packard, Intel Corporation, Dell Computers, and many
> other leading computer corporations have been added to the challenge
> list by Meganet Corporation. The challenge started last week with Bill
> Gates, now some of his peers have an opportunity to validate or
> discredit the bold claim that Meganet's VME (Virtual Matrix
> Encryption) is totally unbreakable.
 
I am pleased to announce that I have added IBM, Gateway 2000, Netscape
Communications, and CISCO to my challenge list.  I started this challenge
last week with Andy Grove.  Now some of Andy's friends also have a chance
to break "CordianPlex", the secure One Time Pad based on the random
arrangement of droppings in my cat's litter box. 
 
None of these companies have ever heard of me, or my insignificant
product, but I think I will put their names in my press release to make me
sound more important to people who haven't a clue. 
 
> Major computer companies are already starting discussions to acquire
> the rights to market this incredible new data encryption system.
 
Name three.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 






From marc at cygnus.com  Fri Nov  7 11:30:43 1997
From: marc at cygnus.com (Marc Horowitz)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:30:43 +0800
Subject: BXA mtg in DC, 12/9/97
In-Reply-To: <Beta.32.19971106134658.043abc40@208.139.36.80>
Message-ID: <t53vhy4o6k1.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>



This happens to 

Greg Broiles <gbroiles at netbox.com> writes:

>> There will be another meeting of that group on 12/9/97 at 9 AM in
>> the (Herbert C., not J. Edgar) Hoover Building, Room 3884, between
>> Pennsylvania & Constitution Avenues, NW, in Washington DC. The
>> agenda is:
>> 
>> 3.	Update on the encryption regulation.

This happens to be during IETF, which happens to be in DC, which means
a large number of prominent cryptographers and implementors from all
over the world will be in town.  Is it worth showing up?  Maybe the
BXA can ask them how they manage to get the stuff from the US even
though it's export controlled :-)

>> [Closed session]
>> 9.	Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 19958,
>> dealing with U.S. export control program and strategic criteria related
>> thereto.

How closed?

		Marc






From accounts at attendant.com  Fri Nov  7 11:58:19 1997
From: accounts at attendant.com (Iproxy)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:58:19 +0800
Subject: Iproxy Confirmation code IS$g$IUtVFKb2V
Message-ID: <199711071947.NAA25052@attendant.com>



Please confirm your subscription to Iproxy by replying to this email,
leaving the subject line intact. To begin using Iproxy, go to:
http://www.iproxy.com/launch.html

Thank you.






From declan at well.com  Fri Nov  7 13:03:33 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 05:03:33 +0800
Subject: BXA mtg in DC, 12/9/97
In-Reply-To: <Beta.32.19971106134658.043abc40@208.139.36.80>
Message-ID: <v0300780bb0892bd2ec15@[168.161.105.141]>



At 14:19 -0500 11/7/97, Marc Horowitz wrote:
>This happens to be during IETF, which happens to be in DC, which means
>a large number of prominent cryptographers and implementors from all
>over the world will be in town.  Is it worth showing up?  Maybe the
>BXA can ask them how they manage to get the stuff from the US even
>though it's export controlled :-)

I'm planning to be there. I'm also going to be at IETF. Any recommendations
on which wg/sessions to attend?

>>> [Closed session]
>>> 9.	Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 19958,
>>> dealing with U.S. export control program and strategic criteria related
>>> thereto.
>
>How closed?

Pretty closed. Unless someone pursues Lucky's recommendation.

-Declan







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov  7 13:04:55 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 05:04:55 +0800
Subject: [patent] Secure electronic message transfer and voting scheme
Message-ID: <v0311075ab0893046f524@[139.167.130.246]>




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-cryptography at c2.org using -f
From: tamaster at technologist.com
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:14:46 -0600 (CST)
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: [patent] Secure electronic message transfer and voting scheme
X-Sender: Private Idaho 2.8b3
Sender: owner-cryptography at c2.net


Secure anonymous message transfer
and voting scheme (Assignee -- NEC
Research Institute, Inc.)

November 7, 1997


Assignee: NEC Research Institute, Inc.

Patent Number: 5682430

Issue Date: 1997 10 28

Inventor(s): Kilian, Joseph John{#buSako, Kazue#}


Abstract: A number-theoretic based algorithm provides for secure
anonymous message transfer and electronic voting. A voter or sender may
cast an encrypted vote or message that is processed through n centers
in a manner which prevents fraud and authenticates the votes. Any
interested party can verify that each vote has been properly counted.
The invention can be realized by current-generation personal computers
with access to an electronic bulletin board.

Ex Claim Text: A method of secure anonymous message transfer from a
plurality of senders by use of a plurality of mixing centers comprising
the steps of: (a) choosing constants which are posted for senders
S.sub.1, S.sub.2, . . . S.sub.l and mixing centers, C.sub.1, C.sub.2,
. . . C.sub.n ; (b) each sender S.sub.k constructing an encrypted
message which is posted; (c) a first mixing center C.sub.1 processing
the posted messages from each sender S.sub.k which processed messages
are then posted for use by the next center; (d) each mixing center
C.sub.2 through C.sub.n-1 sequentially processing the processed messages
from the previous center, which sequentially processed messages are then
posted for use by the next center; (e) the last mixing center C.sub.n
processing messages from the previous center C.sub.n-1 and posting the
result; (f) each mixing center proving the validity of its processing,
which proof is posted; and (g) channel checker verifying correctness of
the execution from posted messages when necessary. from posted messages
when necessary.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From declan at well.com  Fri Nov  7 14:26:54 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 06:26:54 +0800
Subject: FTC, Canada, Mexico officials launch "health claim surf day"
Message-ID: <v0300780fb08941d117ed@[168.161.105.141]>



[From Nov 5 Natural Healthline. --Declan]


******************************************
FTC Launches North American Health Claim Surf Day
******************************************

by Michael Evers

The Federal Trade Commission recently joined with public health and
consumer  protection and information agencies from the United States,
Canada, and  Mexico to "surf" the Internet for potentially false or
deceptive  advertising claims concerning treatments or cures for heart
disease,  cancer, AIDS, diabetes, arthritis, and multiple sclerosis.

The FTC announced today that in just a few hours during the recently
conducted North American Health Claim Surf Day, Internet surfers
identified more than 400 World Wide Web sites and numerous Usenet
newsgroups that contain promotions for products or services purporting
to help cure, treat or prevent these six diseases.

The FTC said that it sent hundreds of Web sites and newsgroups e-mail
messages pointing out that advertisers must have evidence to back up
their claims. FTC staff will follow-up by revisiting the targeted sites
in the coming weeks to determine if changes have been made. Suspected
violators received an e-mail warning which said the following:

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC), its federal and state law
enforcement  partners, and public health and consumer protection
agencies from Mexico  and Canada are sending you (and hundreds of other
Internet advertisers)  this message based upon a review of the promotion
you disseminated through  the Internet.

The FTC and its partners have NOT determined whether your Internet
promotion violates United States federal or state laws, Mexican law, or
Canadian law. Nevertheless, we want to remind you that when you make
health claims in promoting a product, service, or treatment, those
claims  must be truthful and non-deceptive.

Deceptive Acts or Practices Are Unlawful under the FTC Act

In the United States, Section 5 of the FTC Act (15 U.S.C. � 45),
prohibits  deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce. In
addition, Section  12 of the Act (15 U.S.C. � 52) prohibits the
dissemination of any false  advertisement to induce the purchase of any
food, drugs, or devices.

An advertisement is misleading and deceptive if the advertiser makes an
objective claim, either expressly or by implication, including through
the  use of consumer testimonials, without a "reasonable basis" to
support that  claim. As set out in the Commission's Advertising
Substantiation Policy  Statement, advertisements that specify the level
of substantiation that the  advertiser possesses (e.g., "tests prove" or
"studies show") must be  supported by at least that level of evidence.
If the advertisement does not  specify a particular type of
substantiation, the Commission considers  several factors in determining
the appropriate level of substantiation.  Typically, claims of the sort
included on your Internet site must be  substantiated by competent and
reliable scientific evidence. Competent and  reliable scientific
evidence is defined as tests, analyses, research,  studies, or other
evidence based on the expertise of professionals in the  relevant area,
that has been conducted and evaluated in an objective manner  by persons
qualified to do so, using procedures generally accepted in the
profession to yield accurate and reliable results. Anecdotal evidence
and  consumer testimonials are not considered competent and reliable
scientific  evidence. You may want to review your advertisement in light
of these  standards.

Possible Violations in Other Jurisdictions

Unfair or deceptive acts or practices are also unlawful under various
state  statutes in the United States. The standards under these statutes
may be  different from those of the FTC's. In addition, by placing an
Internet site  on the World Wide Web, you may be subject to scrutiny in
other countries  where you sell your products. You should be aware that
many countries,  including Mexico and Canada, also have laws that
generally require  advertisements to be truthful and non-deceptive.

"Hopeful and sometimes desperate consumers spend millions of dollars on
unproven, deceptively marketed, and often useless 'miracle cures' and
the  Internet should not become the newest medium for this age-old
problem,"  said Jodie Bernstein, Director of the FTC's Bureau of
Consumer Protection.  "In addition to wasting consumers' money, some
products or treatments may  even cause them serious harm or endanger
their lives. Even when the  advertised remedy is harmless, it can still
have a detrimental effect if it  causes consumers to stop or slow the
use of proven treatments."

In addition to today's effort to prevent health fraud, the FTC has
recently  conducted several other Internet Surf Days focusing on
different types of  fraud, including pyramid schemes and deceptive
business opportunity offers.

North American Health Claim Surf Day participants included:

U.S. Food and Drug Administration  Health Canada  Competition Bureau of
Industry Canada  Procuraduria Federal del Consumidor of Mexico  the
Secretaria de Salud of Mexico  Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention  Federal Communications Commission (Denver Office)  Attorney
General of Connecticut  Attorney General of Illinois  Attorney General
of Kentucky  Attorney General of Maryland  Attorney General of
Massachusetts  Attorney General of Minnesota  Attorney General of
Missouri  Attorney General of North Carolina  Attorney General of
Pennsylvania  Attorney General of Tennessee  Attorney General of Texas
Attorney General of Vermont  Attorney General of Virginia  Attorney
General of Wisconsin  Arthritis Foundation  American Heart Association
American Diabetes Association  Capital Area and Tristate AIDS Task
Force  Better Business Bureau serving northwest Ohio and southeast
Michigan.

For more information,

Federal Trade Commission Web site  http://www.ftc.gov

Tom Carter  FTC Dallas Regional Director  1999 Bryan Street, Suite 2150
Dallas, Texas 75201  (214) 979-9350







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov  7 14:53:43 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 06:53:43 +0800
Subject: FTC Making It's Move / FTC, Canada, Mexico officials launch "health claim surf day"
Message-ID: <199711072238.XAA12526@basement.replay.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [From Nov 5 Natural Healthline. --Declan]
> by Michael Evers
 > The Federal Trade Commission recently joined with public health and
> consumer  protection and information agencies from the United States,
> Canada, and  Mexico to "surf" the Internet for potentially false or
> deceptive  advertising claims concerning treatments or cures for heart
> disease,  cancer, AIDS, diabetes, arthritis, and multiple sclerosis.

TruthMonger Terrestrial Translation:
The FTC, fearing loss of its dictatorial powers over the information
that citizens are allowed and not allowed to access, wants the citizens
to do its legwork for them so that they can step forward to 'save' us
all from people who use herbs instead of nuclear radiation to maintain
their health.

You remember the FTC, don't you? They are those wonderfolks who gave
us the 'mainstream media' that used the citizen's airwaves to read
us the spoon-fed government propaganda during the Gulf War.

In other news: That pesky Sadaam Hussein is acting up again, as he
always
does during US elections. Funny how the Democrats always come out of
wars with Sadaam looking bad, and CIA-backed Republicans always come
out looking good.

Note to Clinton: You're a Democrat. If you try to show-off in the Gulf,
  all of your helicopters are going to crash.

TruthMonger






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov  7 15:14:32 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:14:32 +0800
Subject: Return of the Living Zundel, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199711072253.XAA14047@basement.replay.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1561,00.html
> Return of the Living Zundel
> by Chris Stamper (cstamper at pathfinder.com)
 
>         Does Ernst Zundel have the right to deny the Holocaust and brag
>    about it on the Net? In the U.S. the answer is unequivocally yes. But
>    in Canada, where Zundel resides, the Human Rights Commission has been
>    holding hearings on whether the "Zundelsite" violates the country's
>    hate speech laws. If Zundel loses the case, he'll be asked to pay
>    damages and take any offending articles off the web site.

  Canadian Shock TV!!!
Camilla Scott, competing for airtime with Jerry Springer's shows about
two-headed lady midget wrestlers in a bed full of chickens with a serial
killer who married his own daughter, recently had a show where people
who
wanted their friends/relatives to change their 'outrageous' behavior
could confront them live, on TV.
One of the guests was perturbed because his friend, a very successful 
businessman, always wore black. (Clothes of exceptional quality and
design, but _always_ black.)
Fortunately, the Canadian sheeple hooted and hollered derision at the
fellow, thus protecting us from unsavory types like the Man in Black.
Unfortunately, the fellow seemed much happier and satisfied with his
life than those doing the hooting and hollering, so chances are, he
will continue his diabolical wardrobe atrocities.

Canadians know that the answer to racism is to put the racists in 
ovens and gas them, then bury them in mass graves in Germany.

Glad I could clear that up.

MapleLeafMonger






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov  7 15:35:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:35:38 +0800
Subject: Beware of the 'ANY' Key / Re: Pauline Hanson's One Nation Monthly Newsletter
Message-ID: <199711072312.AAA16034@basement.replay.com>



Global Web Builders wrote:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> PLEASE NOTE: No unsolicited email is sent. If you do not want to be on the
> mailing list please say "REMOVE" in the subject line and return this message
> in the body.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That darned 'ANY' key is up to its pesky tricks again.

Long the scourge of computer neophytes everywhere, the elusive 'ANY'
key continues to be responsible for all of the evils that happen in
the computer world, at any place and point in time.
Now, the 'ANY' key, which no computer neophyte ever manages to find
when told to do so by Robert's Terribly Funky Manual, seems to be
responsible for those who 'do NOT send out unsolicited email' spamming
millions of computer users around the world.

Bleeding cunt liberal that I am, my pussy bleeds purple piss for Pauline
Hanson (whether she is wearing panties or not), for the great suffering
she must be undergoing as a result of the 'ANY' key mysteriously sending
out her message to millions of total strangers.
Perhaps the answer to the diabolical scourge of the 'ANY' key is to 
provide all computer users with a 'REMOVE' key similar to the big red
button that the US President has access to.

TruthMistress

> Dear supporter in NSW,
> 
> Pauline Hanson's One Nation continues to grow an extraordinary rate.
> 
> There are now over 200 branches of the party nationwide - this just twenty
> eight weeks after the April launch.
> 
> The interest in what we have to say and the level of our support is best
> demonstrated by comparing the recent visits of National Senator Bill O'Chee
> and Pauline Hanson to the traditional National heartland of Gympie in
> central Queensland. At their respective dinners O'Chee managed to attract
> just 12 people while Hanson attracted a full house of 400!
> 
> These are challenging times ahead for the party. With this explosive growth
> and interest the Manly head office of One Nation has come under enormous
> pressure with calls from the media, the growing need to manage the new
> branches and a number of related teething problems.
> 
> Please be patient if you find delays in One Nation responding to an inquiry.
> This is due to the workload being faced by the Manly office.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> As you will have read Pauline Hanson's One Nation will contest the
> Queensland state elections after an independent survey revealed that the
> party had, conservatively, up to 27% support in certain electorates.
> 
> If you know of someone who would make a good candidate please contact Manly
> office on (02) 9976 0283 for application forms. Please note closing date for
> nominations is December 1st.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> There have been a number of One Nation press releases during October. These
> can be viewed at:
> 
> http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/press
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Pauline Hanson's on-line Working Group:
> 
> There has been a tremendous response to the establishment of Pauline
> Hanson's on-line Working Group and we thank those who have become involved
> for their support.
> 
> If you would like to participate please email the following information for
> consideration.
> 
> Name, Contact details (address, phone, fax), membership number (this is a
> pre-requisite) and branch (default is Manly).
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Like any growing political organisation Pauline Hanson's One Nation needs
> your financial support. Please help NOW if you are able... Their is an
> on-line form that can be printed out and posted together with your donation at:
> 
> http://www.gwb.com.au/pledge.html
> 
> Let's get that donation-meter reading moving!
> 
> Pauline Hanson






From fiona at witcapital.com  Fri Nov  7 15:49:06 1997
From: fiona at witcapital.com (fiona at witcapital.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:49:06 +0800
Subject: IPO ALERT: Brass Eagle, Inc. Available through Wit Capital
Message-ID: <199711072330.PAA09874@toad.com>




Wit Capital Corporation is pleased to announce that we are able to provide first-come first-serve participation in the following initial public offering as described below:

Issuer:  Brass Eagle, Inc., a worldwide leader in the design, manufacture, marketing and distribution of paintball products, including paintball guns, paintballs and accessories.
Security:  Common Stock

Expected Size of Offering:  2,275,000 shares

Expected Price Range:  $10.00 to $12.00

Lead Underwriter:  McDonald & Co.

If you think you may be interested in this Initial Public Offering available through Wit Capital, please visit http://www.witcapital.com or call (888) 4wit-cap.
You can view, print or download the Preliminary Prospectus from the New Issues Section of our website.  To purchase shares, you must first open an account, which you can do online.

Investing in public offerings is speculative and may not be appropriate for every investor.
As with all of your investments with Wit Capital, you must make your own determination of whether an investment in this offering is consistent with your investment objectives and risk tolerance.
To learn more about the risks of investing in initial public offerings please visit the New Issues Section of our website.

A REGISTRATION STATEMENT RELATING TO THESE SECURITIES HAS BEEN FILED WITH THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION BUT HAS NOT YET BECOME EFFECTIVE.  THESE SECURITIES MAY NOT BE SOLD NOR MAY OFFERS TO BUY BE ACCEPTED PRIOR TO THE TIME THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE.  THIS COMMUNICATION SHALL NOT CONSTITUTE AN OFFER TO SELL OR THE SOLICITATION OF AN OFFER TO BUY, NOR SHALL THERE BE ANY SALE OF THESE SECURITIES IN ANY JURISDICTION IN WHICH SUCH OFFER, SOLICITATION OR SALE WOULD BE UNLAWFUL PRIOR TO REGISTRATION OR QUALIFICATION UNDER THE SECURITIES LAWS OF SUCH JURISDICTION.

NO OFFER TO BUY THE SECURITIES CAN BE ACCEPTED AND NO PART OF THE PURCHASE PRICE CAN BE RECEIVED UNTIL THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE, AND ANY SUCH OFFER MAY BE WITHDRAWN AND REVOKED WITHOUT OBLIGATION OR COMMITMENT OF ANY KIND, AT ANY TIME PRIOR TO NOTICE OF ITS ACCEPTANCE GIVEN AFTER THE EFFECTIVE DATE.  AN INDICATION OF INTEREST IN RESPONSE TO THIS RESPONSE TO THIS ADVERTISEMENT WILL INVOLVE NO OBLIGATION OR COMMITMENT OF ANY KIND.

A broker dealer or its agent may only transact business in a state after licensure or satisfying qualification requirements of that state. If you reside in a particular state that Wit Capital is not registered in as a broker dealer or has registered agents in, this message is not directed to you. Wit Capital will not open a brokerage account or sell securities to you until such time registration requirements in your home state are fulfilled.  Thank you.


Wit Capital Corporation
Member NASD/SIPC







From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov  7 16:55:59 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:55:59 +0800
Subject: Return of the Living Zundel, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b089126cf351@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <3463B4E6.6CD3@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1561,00.html
> 
> The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
> November 6, 1997
> 
> Return of the Living Zundel
> by Chris Stamper (cstamper at pathfinder.com)
> 
>         Does Ernst Zundel have the right to deny the Holocaust and brag
>    about it on the Net? In the U.S. the answer is unequivocally yes. But
>    in Canada, where Zundel resides, the Human Rights Commission has been
>    holding hearings on whether the "Zundelsite" violates the country's
>    hate speech laws.

  Zundel's web site contains pointers to the sites of those who disagree
with him. The Holocaust promotion web sites, however, contain pointers
only to sites which are in agreement with their views.
  e.g. - At Zundel's site:
> For relentless Holocaust promotion, on the other hand, contact Nizkor. 
> For another Jewish point of view, contact the Simon Wiesenthal Center (tm) 

  Thus, the Canadian Human Rights Commission's primary goal seems to
be to limit Canadian's access to infomation to only that which is in
alignment with the goals of those holding the reins of power.

TruthMunger






From fiona at witcapital.com  Fri Nov  7 17:03:04 1997
From: fiona at witcapital.com (fiona at witcapital.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:03:04 +0800
Subject: Come Celebrate the launch of Wit Capital Corporation!
Message-ID: <199711080043.QAA10156@toad.com>



When:
Thursday, November 13, 1997
6:00 pm to midnight
Where:
Wit Capital offices
826 Broadway
(corner of 12th St.)
6th floor
New York City
(212) 253-4400
                                                                  
What:
Eat, drink and dance the night away

____________________________________________
For a more colorful invitation, please visit 
http://www.witcapital.com/invite.html






From kimmi at 4integrity.com  Sat Nov  8 09:54:55 1997
From: kimmi at 4integrity.com (kimmi at 4integrity.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:54:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Do you suffer from...
Message-ID: <199711081754.JAA17322@toad.com>


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If you received this message in error, please e-mail us at  remove at 4integrity.com and you will be removed from our list.

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From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Nov  7 18:20:21 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:20:21 +0800
Subject: INFO-RUSS: school projects... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711080215.UAA29933@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu Fri Nov  7 20:09:14 1997
Message-Id: <9711072030.AA17690 at smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 15:22:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "LEONID I. KIRKOVSKY" <lkirkovsky at utmem1.utmem.edu>
To: info-russ at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Subject: INFO-RUSS: school projects...


---------------------------------------------------------------------
This is INFO-RUSS broadcast (1200+ subscribers). Home page, information, 
and archives: http://psi.ece.jhu.edu/~kaplan/IRUSS/inforuss.html
To post, or to subscribe/unsubscribe, mail to info-russ at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
INFO-RUSS assumes no responsibility for the information/views of its users.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, everybody!
My son is going to make two voluntary projects for his school. 
Tentative title of the projects are:

1. Transfer of military technologies to civil life. It is about technologies 
like microwave oven or diapers came from space stations, or automatic 
transmission first invented for tanks. 

2. Russian scientists/inventors worked/working in the USA (like Sikorski, or 
inventor of TV).

I am wondering if somebody  knows any good sources of information on the 
matter.

Many thanks in advance.

Leonid Kirkovsky
LKirkovsky at utmem3.utmem.edu






From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Nov  7 18:29:03 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:29:03 +0800
Subject: Crazy Isreali's... [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711080225.UAA30040@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

>                   CHILD HEIRESS AT THE CENTER OF TWISTED PLOT
>                                        
>       Onassis November 7, 1997
>      Web posted at: 7:50 p.m. EST (0050 GMT)
>      
>      JERUSALEM (AP) -- As part of a battle over a young girl's $2.4
>      billion trust fund, former Israeli secret service agents tracked her
>      father's movements using paragliders and cameras hidden in trees.
>      
>      At least, that's the Israeli version of what happened to Athena
>      Roussel, the granddaughter of Greek shipping magnate Aristotle
>      Onassis.
>      
>      Swiss authorities, however, suspect the Israelis may have been
>      involved in a plot to kidnap the 12-year-old girl and want them
>      arrested.
>      
>      Much of the story, hushed up for months, remains shrouded inmystery,
>      though bits and pieces have emerged in the Israeli media.
>      
>      The daily newspaper Maariv ran a banner headline Friday about"An
>      operation to save the Onassis fortune." Next to it was apicture of
>      an angelic-looking Athena wearing a white dress and a garland of
>      white flowers in her honey-colored hair.
>      
>      Athena is the only child of Christina Onassis, the shipping
>      magnate's daughter, and her fourth husband, Thierry Roussel. The
>      couple divorced 1987 and Christina Onassis died a year later.
>      Roussel has remarried and has three children with his new wife.
>      Athena lives with her father and his new family in Switzerland and
>      France.
>      
>      Athena stands to inherit some $2.4 billion when she turns 18,and in
>      the meantime her father and the Greek executors of hermother's will
>      have been fighting over control of the money.
>      
>      Roussel receives $5 million a year for personal expenses, under his
>      ex-wife's will. Expenses for Athena are confidential.
>      
>      Roussel recently sued the charitable Alexander S. Onassis Public
>      Benefit Foundation, accusing it of having mismanaged and embezzled
>      millions of dollars. A Greek court acquitted the foundation earlier
>      this year.
>      
>      Israeli police said that at some point, Greek trustees turned to
>      Israeli private investigators and asked them to find evidence that
>      Athena's father was involved in "immoral acts."
>      
>      The seven Israelis -- among them former top agents in Israel's Shin
>      Bet security service -- began by preparing surveillance on the
>      Roussel mansion near Geneva, according to Maariv and the Yediot
>      Ahronot daily newspaper.
>      
>      This was a complicated task, the newspapers said, sinceintruders
>      could easily be spotted near the heavily guarded,isolated compound.
>      One solution the agents came up with, saidYediot, was to use
>      paragliders to fly over the Roussel home and take pictures from the
>      air.
>      
>      Another scheme to avoid drawing attention was to have
>      agentsmasquerade as environmentalists driving around in a
>      vanplastered with "green" stickers.
>      
>      The Israeli team also proposed to hide surveillance cameras in the
>      trees of the compound and use state-of-the-art laser technology to
>      wiretap Roussel's home and office, Maariv said.
>      
>      In a second stage, the surveillance team hired another Israeli
>      investigator to check out Roussel's Paris apartment, the newspaper
>      said. The agent learned, said Maariv, that Roussel was running a
>      modeling agency there, and at one point hired a British model to try
>      and infiltrate Roussel's business.
>      
>      The surveillance efforts came to light when an Israeli businessman
>      and a friend of the Paris agent found out about it and tried to sell
>      the information for profit. The businessman was questioned by Swiss
>      police who began an investigation.
>      
>      It was at this stage, said Maariv and Yediot, that the Greektrustees
>      ordered the Israeli team to drop its efforts.
>      
>      In a statement Friday, the Onassis Foundation accused Roussel of a
>      campaign to remove his daughter from the control of the trustees,
>      "even in matters of security."
>      
>      However, foundation officials refused comment on the record when
>      asked whether trustees had hired the Israelis.
>      
>      Last month, Swiss police officials came to Israel to questionseveral
>      of the Israeli investigators who had since returned home.
>      
>      Israeli police said they decided to close the case because they had
>      no evidence of wrongdoing. An Israeli police investigator said he
>      was convinced the Israeli agents had simply carried out surveillance
>      and were not involved in a kidnapping plot.
>      
>      But a Swiss judge investigating the kidnapping suspicions said he
>      doubted the Israeli version.
>      
>      "It's their way of seeing things and it's convenient forthem," said
>      Judge Jacques Delieutraz of Geneva. "They don't have all the facts
>      we have."






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Fri Nov  7 19:47:20 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:47:20 +0800
Subject: Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting announcement
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971108044654.10403A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tomorrow's Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will be held at the offices of
C2Net Software in Oakland.

Agenda:
o Andrea Liles will present some cool new ideas about virtual CA's.

o Lucky Green will demonstrate the Dumb Mouse, a universal chipcard
reader, and associated analysis/manipulation software. If you are at all
interested in smartcards, especially smartcards for crypto and
authentication purposes, you don't want to miss this one. If there aren't
too many attendees, we will host a workshop. Attendees are encouraged to
bring any smartcards in their possession and discover what is /really/
happening on the card. The Cypherpunks Smartcard Developers Association
will accept smartcard donations after the workshop.

o Cypherpunks Tonga will announce the release of BSAFEeay, a BSAFE 3.0 API
compatible crypto library based on SSLeay.

o Cypherpunks Tonga will then combine BSAFEeay with the freeware SETref
(which requires BSAFE for the underlying crypto) and demonstrate the first
ever globally available *freeware* SET solution.

Location:
C2Net Software
1440 Broadway
7th Floor
Oakland, CA

Date/time: 
Saturday, 11/8, noon

Directions:
By BART:
Exit the system at 12th Street Oakland. Walk north on Broadway one block.
1440 is on the right side of the street.

By car:
http://www.mapquest.com/
Choose "Trip Quest" from the menu.

- -- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 5.0i
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNGPhYvXUPTw3WtkkEQKztACeIQwx4voyUVIP6u1HmosCWklX7osAnROD
TTJn3K2jCIrKUQtOc5Z3oW1P
=byR/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov  7 20:15:02 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:15:02 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32adfcca3eebc8a81ff728910558907f@anon.efga.org>



TruthMunger wrote:
>         Does Ernst Zundel have the right to deny the Holocaust and brag
>    about it on the Net? In the U.S. the answer is unequivocally yes. But
>    in Canada, where Zundel resides, the Human Rights Commission has been
>    holding hearings on whether the "Zundelsite" violates the country's
>    hate speech laws.

  Thus, the Canadian Human Rights Commission's primary goal seems to
be to limit Canadian's access to infomation to only that which is in
alignment with the goals of those holding the reins of power.

TruthMunger
-----------

The World Wide Web and its liberating impact is being confronted with some
realities from Big Brother.  I don't know the technicalities of how these things
are done.  Would someone enlighten me (us) on how government can shut out internet
traffice from or to undesireables?

Browsing back through some article by S. Garfinkel recently led me to

Electronic Border-Control, 14 July, 1997, Wired's Synapse

http://www.hotwired.com/synapse/feature/97/28/garfinkel0a_text.html

Some of Garfinkel's ideas about quite conventional about keeping the 
bad guys out and using government as the means of putting up a
cyber barbed-wire-fence. I don't agree with his opinion about this, but it
clued me in on the possiblities regarding what might be done under the
conditions of a controlled & regulated environment.

It would seem that as band-width increases dramatically, cheaper
access and greater familiarity with the net occurs that government
(taxes, regulations, der polizei, etc.) will come with it. The prospects
of having the internet smothered under regulations is a disappointing idea.

What are the possiblities for censoring/blocking communications on a technical basis?

Sparticus







From inbiz at ultramax.net  Sat Nov  8 12:50:43 1997
From: inbiz at ultramax.net (inbiz at ultramax.net)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:50:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Website for Any Business
Message-ID: <199711082050.MAA18255@toad.com>


I will give you a FREE FOREVER website for ANY BUSINESS
(except porn or illegal, of course) just for visiting my website.

That's right, I'm  trying to generate traffic to my website, so as
an incentive to get you there, I'll GIVE you your very own website.
(There's even a cool page wizard that makes it a snap to create 
your webpage).

Email me back and I'll tell you the address to go to.

Best Wishes to you in everything you're doing!
Lisa


If you'd like to be removed from this mailing list,
please hit reply and type remove in the subject line.






From blancw at cnw.com  Fri Nov  7 21:14:07 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:14:07 +0800
Subject: Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting announcement
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971107210508.006f972c@cnw.com>



Lucky Green wrote:

>o Cypherpunks Tonga will announce [...]
>
>o Cypherpunks Tonga will then combine [...]
........................................................

What is Cypherpunks Tonga?

    ..
Blanc






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov  7 21:43:03 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:43:03 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
Message-ID: <48aa69ecd4b055b2bfdf92ae0dd435b9@anon.efga.org>



There is a SERIOUS bug in all pentium CPUs. The following 
code will crash any machine running on a pentium CPU, MMX or no 
MMX, any speed, regardless of OS (crash as in instant seize, hard 
reboot the only cure):

char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };

main ()
{
       void (*f)() = x;
       f();
}

This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
Demand a new CPU from Intel.








From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Fri Nov  7 22:20:17 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:20:17 +0800
Subject: Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting announcement
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971107210508.006f972c@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971108071147.10551B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Blanc wrote:

> Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> >o Cypherpunks Tonga will announce [...]
> >
> >o Cypherpunks Tonga will then combine [...]
> ........................................................
> 
> What is Cypherpunks Tonga?

See https://www.cypherpunks.to/

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From brian at firstgear.com.firstgear.com  Sat Nov  8 15:44:25 1997
From: brian at firstgear.com.firstgear.com (brian at firstgear.com.firstgear.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:44:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: YOUR LISTING ON YAHOO!
Message-ID: <199611080646.GAA13297@mail.firstgear.com>


Hi:  This email is in  reference to YOUR LISTING ON YAHOO!  

If you are interested in placing your web site in the TOP TEN on the major
search engines, please read on.

(If not, please disregard this email and accept our apology for any
intrusion.) reply with remove in the subject.

For those of you who are interested, please read on!

(Ed. note: Yahoo asked that we mention that our group and Yahoo are not
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____________________________________________________________


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>
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>
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>
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>

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Marathon Key, Fl.  33050
Fax 305-289-1884
 http://www.servicebrokers.com/SES3.htm

________________________________________________________________________
                            
>________________________________________________________________________

>                                  FAX ORDER FORM
>                              (Please print clearly)
>
>FAX TO: Leeds Publishing
>
>FAX NUMBER: 1-305-289-1884

Hi:  Here is my order for Search Engine Secrets at $19.95 only. I understand
it is unconditionally guaranteed. Include my FREE BONUS of 500 search
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Date:__________________
>
NAME:_______________________________________________
>
E-MAIL
ADDRESS:______________________________________________________________
(PLEASE be accurate.  One small error and we can't send your order).
>
>CARD TYPE:_________________
>
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>
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>
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ASAP.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>____________________________________________________________
>
>
>Copyright 1997 Leeds and Rousseau Publishing.  All rights reserved.
Form 102 GD-Yahoo
>















From semprini at theschool.com  Sat Nov  8 01:08:22 1997
From: semprini at theschool.com (semprini at theschool.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:08:22 +0800
Subject: Totally breakable V(aporware) M(oney-making) E(ncryption)
Message-ID: <199711080901.BAA13088@k2.brigadoon.com>



I just finished reading the contents of the VME web-site. I have a 
few things to say. :)

First of all the web-site blows elephant cock. You would think with 
guys smart enough to come up with "unbreakable encryption", they 
would at least be able to design a good site.

Second, they make a big deal about how fast it is and how it can 
encrypt *ONE WHOLE FAT MEGABYTE A MINUTE*! Big whoop. Hope nobody 
wants to encrypt anything useful besides teensy weensy e-mails, 
'cause you're gonna grow old before it finishes encrypting.

Third, what the hell good is it if nobody can see the source code? 
It's well known that a trademark of bad cryptographic systems are the 
ones that rely on secrecy of the algorithm. Some happy little geek in 
his college computer lab is going to spend the time needed to reverse 
engineer the program, which they claim is "impossible to reverse 
engineer". Well, they didn't say it was "impossible", but they did 
say that the code is so complicated that nobody would be able to 
understand it if they ever did reverse engineer it. Bullshit. I know a 
15 year old kid who actually has the patience to go through a few 
thousand lines of assembly code just to see what a program really 
does.

Fourth, as someone else pointed out, the description of the algorithm 
is filled with words like "revolutionary" and "super-fast", etc. The 
descriptions of how the program works are so vague and general that 
it hards to believe they even have a running program. The description 
of the encryption sounds all very pretty, but I seriously wonder if 
that's the extent of the security. Almost like having a gold plated 
sign on your door saying "Keep out!" and then leaving your door 
unlocked. 

Fifth, their "challenge" to these major corportions merely states 
that they gave IBM, MS, and Netscape this big challenge to crack the 
system, but it never actually says the companies took up the offer 
and are actively trying to crack it. How's this one? "Microsoft, 
Netscape, and IBM!! I challenge you to crack my version of the Caesar 
Cipher!" There. I can now claim that I have challenged all the big 
corps to crack my crypto scheme. Challenging a big company doesn't 
prove a thing.

Anyway, that's my rant and rave. Just as a small side note, if you 
would like to see some good examples of Madison Avenue at work then 
just visit this web-site:

http://www.meganet.com

> News report Nov 7, 97:
> 
> AT&T, Hewlett Packard, Intel Corporation, Dell Computers, and 
> many other leading computer corporations have been added to the 
> challenge list by Meganet Corporation. The challenge started 
> last week with Bill Gates, now some of his peers have an opportunity 
> to validate or discredit the bold claim that Meganet's VME 
> (Virtual Matrix Encryption) is totally unbreakable. 
> 
> Unbreakable encryption is the only answer to security 
> in our electronic world. This is graphically illustrated 
> by the recent report from the National Security Agency
> reporting the open market availability of a $10 chip that 
> can test up to 200 million keys per second. The 56-bit key, 
> government and banking standard, can be compromised in 
> twelve (12) seconds with brute force using ASIC
> (Application-specific Integrated Circuits) chips. 
> 
> Meganet has the answer with its new VME (Virtual Matrix 
> Encryption). The impenetrable VME also has extreme speed, 
> much faster than any existing program available today. 
> 
> Major computer companies are already starting discussions 
> to acquire the rights to market this incredible new data 
> encryption system. More information about this
> exciting new technology can be found at: www.meganet.com
> 
> ----------
> 
> Hmm, wonder if it has impenetrable GAK and CAK options.
> 
> 






From 62789105 at 06090.com  Sat Nov  8 20:20:15 1997
From: 62789105 at 06090.com (62789105 at 06090.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:20:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Wallpaper Tip!!
Message-ID: <19971107005@hotmail.com>


Free Wallpaper Tip!!!!

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From hjk at ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de  Sat Nov  8 04:54:15 1997
From: hjk at ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de (=?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?=)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:54:15 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <48aa69ecd4b055b2bfdf92ae0dd435b9@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971108134328.9114I-100000@alien.lummerland.de>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


The german Chaos Computer Club distributes a Dos/Win binary (f00fc7c8.com,
5 Bytes :-) ) and a linux version.
Have a look at http://www.ccc.de .
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Heinz-Juergen Keller  hjk@[mail.]ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de   hjkeller at gmx.[net,de]
  2047bit PGP Public Key : http://www.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de/~hjk/
  MD5 Fingerprint: 4d33126fbf8c1bcd8e96ba90d99f0bdc
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

iQEVAwUBNGRgCyZWWJBRAP1VAQHVTgf/XhQy1bRhlLZh7E+/Xguusqd53/ZwKM7b
LHCZ3q02YuNc//UlW27uFSn31RPEjE0mQJWIjhgUxy3+JYa1ev8HIHcsi/0ls+9n
RXVkcYeclHs1r6YQc+IBtAteImRYsoyXJfE3vV07EdgGWrr9drdRwsAD6dHGcz0E
1hL/BmLeTTZJMbdc3vfj6fJGeQs5oH8oYnV70Tn6mdjmGkvohTCFSu/wTjaNwkSv
CT/Ubitt6u4kuK3+VaNVAb/1xiYVotcNHPRLIboLuIOihADTLdcCy/PWV4iMCYaS
G/r0mn5Unfil6vtRp1eawfk+h+qLf2fPC4POzIpakEW3ginvox1vYg==
=gE6c
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.org  Sat Nov  8 04:57:13 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:57:13 +0800
Subject: CHALLENGE to Meganet VME: million dollar hype?
Message-ID: <19971108.120158.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Meganet Corporation (818) 757-3890 
19528 Ventura Blvd. Suite 317 
Tarzana, CA 91356

    OPEN CHALLENGE TO YOU

over the last 30 years I have seen hundreds of new "unbreakable"
encryption programs; all of them have the same claims, the same
challenges, and the same secrecy.   but, with several notable
exceptions, each has contained a fatal flaw.  and I have seen
even my own "perfect" algorithms fall apart when I awake...

therefore, if you want any serious encryption experts to endorse
your product as having a factor of "unbreakability" by forcing the
level of brute force necessary to do so, provide the algorithm
and the associated source code to a few of us who enjoy breaking
algorithms as much as we enjoy trying to create them.

I dont have time, any more than my colleagues will have time, to 
waste on foolishness represented by your amateur challenge.

until you are willing to submit to an open review by your peers, 
your supposed encryption product is YAP. 

secondly, until your methodology is reviewed, we will consider 
the product a schill to Louis Freeh and other GAK and trap door
mandated system advocates.

if you wish to be considered a serious contender to replace RSA,
it's time to put your cards on the table; we see your nickel and
call.  in the matter of public encryption, there is no secrecy,
or there is no use.

your move.

    attila out...

cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNGRf3LR8UA6T6u61AQGbHgH8CRQZShIUzW0wr1ib7cQGSfMcUbJTygx9
ckzuU/NB4W4u11rEjSQzC5ozybWWxHcjSQel+CZ79wPAP0vM+HM7Jg==
=zTyp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov  8 07:32:29 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:32:29 +0800
Subject: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)
Message-ID: <v03110703b08a352fa207@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


From: Bob Antia <antia at leftbank.com>
Subject: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)
To: mjbauer at leftbank.com (Michael Bauer), rah at shipwright.com
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:04:14 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0


Approved-By: aleph1 at UNDERGROUND.ORG
Message-ID: <f58bccfc52aba91d0973f9bf33160ddd at anon.efga.org>
Date: 	Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:54:16 -0500
Reply-To: Anonymous <anon at ANON.EFGA.ORG>
Sender: Bugtraq List <BUGTRAQ at NETSPACE.ORG>
Comments:     This message was remailed by a FREE automated remailing service.
              For additional information on this service,
              send a message with the subject "remailer-help" to
              remailer at anon.efga.org. The body of the message will be
              discarded. To report abuse,
              contact the operator at admin at anon.efga.org.  Headers below this
              point were inserted by the original sender.
From: Anonymous <anon at ANON.EFGA.ORG>
Subject:      Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2
To: BUGTRAQ at NETSPACE.ORG

CyberCash v. 2.1.2 has a major security flaw that causes all credit
card information processed by the server to be logged in a file with
world-readable permissions.  This security flaw exists in the default
CyberCash installation and configuration.

The flaw is a result of not being able to turn off debugging.  Setting
the "DEBUG" flag to "0" in the configuration files simply has no
effect on the operation of the server.

In CyberCash's server, when the "DEBUG" flag is on, the contents of
all credit card transactions are written to a log file (named
"Debug.log" by default).

The easiest workaround I've found is to simply delete the existing
Debug.log file.  In my experience with the Solaris release, the
CyberCash software does not create this file at start time when the
DEBUG flag is set to 0.

The inability to turn off debugging is noted on CyberCash's web site
under "Known Limitations".  The fact that credit card numbers are
stored in the clear, in a world readable file, is not.

--jet

-b

Bob Antia                                           antia at leftbank.com
The Left Bank Operation, Inc.                       http://www.leftbank.com
TCP/IP Internetworking                              LAN/WAN/NT/UNIX Admin
PGP fingerprint          9B 70 FF 2D 03 CC 5F C1  3E 29 6E D4 16 79 44 A8

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Nov  8 07:56:03 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:56:03 +0800
Subject: Forging your return address.
In-Reply-To: <19971105012501.13508.qmail@nsm.htp.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971108092656.5770A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>



And I thought Toto was Moe!

On 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> >Sympatico Admin wrote:
> >> Hi Larry,
>       ^^^^^
> Eek!  The snakes of Medusa?!!
> 
> 






From colin at nyx.net  Sat Nov  8 09:00:24 1997
From: colin at nyx.net (Colin Plumb)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:00:24 +0800
Subject: Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting announcement
Message-ID: <199711080958.CAA05227@nyx10.nyx.net>



Additionally, there will be a release of the PGP 5.0 Unix Specific
Source Code Update at the public meeting.
-- 
	-Colin






From 99001680 at msn.com  Sun Nov  9 01:58:30 1997
From: 99001680 at msn.com (99001680 at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:58:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: DO YOU WAGER / GAMBLE ON SPORTS ?
Message-ID: <this.is.the.number.2.call.1.900.484.7777.2.win.big.cash>




MR ACTION HAS THE WINNERS FOR SUNDAY & MONDAY 

NFL & BASKETBALL    GUARANTEED TO WIN !!!

UP NOW AT  


1-900-484-7777


$18.00 per call

Under 18 years of age ??

Don't Call!!!

This is a guaranteed pick line. If you do not have a winning day with these selections we will replace the selections or make a refund!!






From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov  8 10:34:12 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:34:12 +0800
Subject: E-Peso's for tractors - McCaffrey on banking
Message-ID: <v0311070eb08a5388bb6a@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


From: "Blair Anderson" <blair at technologist.com>
To: "dcsb at ai.mit.edu" <dcsb at ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 97 01:53:59 +1300
Priority: Normal
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: E-Peso's for tractors - McCaffrey on banking
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "Blair Anderson" <blair at technologist.com>

06:24 p.m Nov 05, 1997 Eastern

         U.S. drug czar appeals to banks to track laundering

         By Anthony Boadle

         WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Bankers, watch those ``smurf''
         accounts.

         That was the message drug enforcement authorities gave
         the American Bankers Association and the American Bar
         Association at their annual money laundering conference
         Wednesday.

         Any innocent-looking person could be depositing a drug
         baron's cash parceled into amounts smaller that the
         $10,000 reporting threshhold to avoid suspicion, so get
         to know your customer, they warned.

         Traffickers hire individuals or ``smurfs'' who open
         small accounts at U.S. banks in their own or fictitious
         names.

         Once in the system, drug money becomes very hard to
         trace, White House drug policy director Gen. Barry
         McCaffrey said.

         Americans spend $49 billion a year on illegal drugs and
         much of that cash has to go through banks and
         corporations to get back to the Colombian cartels that
         ship cocaine and heroin to the the United States, he
         said.

         McCaffrey said drug traffickers were becoming
         increasingly sophisticated in laundering their proceeds,
         resorting to high tech communication encryption and
         ``cybercash'' transactions over the Internet.

         ``We are not going to find dumb guys stumbling into bank
         branches in New York City with cardboard boxes full of
         $20 bills that test positive for cocaine,'' he said.

         ``We are losing contact with the enemy,'' the general
         said. ''The government cannot follow laundering by
         itself. You are going to have to help.''

         McCaffrey said the drug trade was moving into new areas
         such as the securities industry to launder its profits.

         Treasury Department Undersecretary for Enforcement,
         Raymond Kelly, said Colombian cartels were using a black
         market peso brokering system to send home their profits.

         Cartels sell their dollars at a discount to Colombian
         businessmen who need to buy goods in the United States.
         The dollars go to pay the U.S. manufacturer or exporter.
         The pesos never leave Colombia and end up in the drug
         baron's account.

         A hooded Colombian woman testified in Congress last
         month that she had laundered money through large U.S.
         banks and corporations unwittingly used by black market
         peso brokers.

         She cited the case of drug dollars going to pay for a
         tractor for a Colombian farmer.

         Keely, a former New York City police commissioner,
         warned that money laudering was corroding financial
         institutions.

         ``It is the source and the product of a burgeoning
         global parallel trading system that serves the emerging
         criminal holding companies,'' he told the bankers and
         lawyers.

         Kelly said the Clinton administration has worked to
         lessen the burden of the Suspicious Activity Reports
         that banks are obliged to file under the Banking Secrecy
         Act.

         The banking industry complained it had to file 12
         million such reports in 1996, a time consuming and
         costly activity.

         New regulations exempts banks from reporting on certain
         customers, such as corporations listed on stock markets
         and their subsidiaries.

         But a new set of rules exempting additional businesses
         has caused an uproar among bankers because they would
         have to track the daily currency operations of these
         businesses for one year and project their annual
         currency needs.

         Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.


Blair Anderson  (Blair at technologist.com)

International Consultant in Electronic Commerce,
Encryption and Electronic Rights Management

   "Techno Junk and Grey Matter"  (HTTP://WWW.NOW.CO.NZ [moving servers,
currently inactive])
   50 Wainoni Road, Christchurch, New Zealand

          phone 64 3 3894065
          fax     64 3 3894065

Member 	Digital Commerce Society of Boston

---------------------------- Caught in the Net for 25 years
----------------------------



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov  8 10:34:27 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:34:27 +0800
Subject: Content controls
Message-ID: <v03110712b08a5490f95c@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: hutchinson at click.ncri.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:29:04 -0500
To: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
From: hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
Subject: Content controls
Cc: whgiii at invweb.net, dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

>>>A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
>>>auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
>>>bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
>>>networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
>>>the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
>>>information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
>>>information process bites the dust.
>
>>Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information was
>>stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin to
>>*persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes and
>>Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
>>range of parameters (including price, usage context, and any other
>>variable for which you can imagine having a certificate).  Whats
>>fundamentally different about what are generically referred to as secure
>>envelopes, is that they can maintain controls *indefinitely*
>>(persistence), across an un-
>>known, ad hoc, web of distribution over which one otherwise has no
>>control.  And yes, this can all work even in a completely disconnected
>>environment (laptop at 35,000 feet).
>
>>They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
>>holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new
>>ways, based on entirely new (or old) business models, that take advantage
>>of rich/elaborate conditions for usage (e.g. you can view this picture
>>anonymously, but it will cost you 2X as much, and you can only get it at
>>low resolution, and you can't view it at all unless you can prove that
>>you don't live in the Middle East).  No certificate for these conditions?
>>Sorry, no content.
>
>>They are based the same basic stuff (public key cryptography of course)
>>that *can* fuel wild anarchic visions of anonymous exchange.  ;)
>
>>But they aren't at all deterministic of any particular economic model.
>
>Well how exactly does one prevent data from being stolen once it has been
>unlocked? I pay my 2X to view the picture anonymously and now I copy it
>save it and distribute it worldwide. I fail to see how any
>encryption/watermark scheme can prevent me from doing so.

The control technologies to which I referred earlier turn the lock/unlock
idea into far more than a binary choice.  This is what I meant by
"persistence".  The content cannot be used without its accompanying
control set (which again, *might* include payment).  Part of the control
set I may impose on anonymous viewers could include preventing them from
copying or saving the content directly in digital form.

This is counter-intuitive to those of us who are used to having cut/paste
available at our fingertips in most applications, but its relatively trivial
to disable these functions on a file by file basis.  Alternatively, I might
impose controls that permit anonymous users to see *only* lower reso-
lution versions. (by analogy, if you're going to wear a ski mask into a
jewelry store, you aren't likely to be shown the expensive stuff - if they
let you in the door in the first place).

If you were really determined, you could always take a photo of the
screen, re-scan it, do some image enhancement to get rid of the graini-
ness, re-save it and post it on your web page for all to see, (the
so-called digital-to-analog-to-digital work-around), but this is darned
inconvenient.
Also, try doing that with music or movies.... while avoiding the roving
automated net 'bots that will be out looking for illegal copies of content
(these are already common).  Not worth it.  For most people.

If it were, we'd already have massive illegal scanning operations in
third-world countries, and plenty of demand for their wares.  Sure,
this exists, and may even grow a bit around the fringes, but this hardly
proves the case for a single vision of an anarchic Robin Hood future for
all content (Sell today else I rip you off tomorrow!!)

As a non-disclosed third party, I'm not at liberty to discuss the 'guts' of
either the Crytolope or Digibox technologies (though I have seen them)
Both are covered, as you might imagine, by a fairly extensive array of
active and pending patents.  If you want to learn more, I'd recommend
contacting them directly:

www.intertrust.com   (or their partner, Softbank NetSolutions)
www.infomkt.ibm.com

Cheers.

- Art

Art Hutchinson                                       hutchinson at ncri.com
Northeast Consulting Resources, Inc.     phone: (617) 654-0635
One Liberty Square                                 fax: (617) 654-0654
Boston, MA 02160                                 www.ncri.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Working at the intersection of business and IT strategy to
help organizations embrace electronic commerce opportunities"



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov  8 10:35:47 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:35:47 +0800
Subject: Hughes Markets? (finally some stimulating debate on dcsb)
Message-ID: <v03110710b08a5430e2ef@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: hutchinson at click.ncri.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:28:21 -0500
To: "R. Jason Cronk" <listmanager at orange.redmans.com>
From: hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (finally some stimulating debate on dcsb)
Cc: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

I wrote:

>>Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information
>>was stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin
>>to *persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes
>>and Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
>
><SNIP>
>
>>They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
>>holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new

To which R. Jason Cronk replied:

>"if they so choose"  and here is where I submit the two camps divide.

Yep.  I couldn't agree more.  There will be at *least* two, (and probably
more like 2000) 'camps'.  And here is where I think we diverge....

>Sure, you can decide to try to hold on to the rights, but it is going to be
>market suicide.  Your best bet is to sell it all off, get what you can for
>it and do it again. In other words, a recursive auction market.

With more sophisticated tools for rights management, the market contest
can  move to another level, with content business models *themselves*
vying for attention.  Recursive auctions are merely one of these models.

They may make perfect sense for the kind of content that is going to
decline in value over time anyway (news, for example).  Not all content
works this way though.  Recursive auction markets are exciting because
for the most part, they haven't been possible in 'copyright' industries
until recently.  Its easy to say that they will be more important than they
are today.  They will.  But to say that they are fore-ordained as the only
way for creators to get compensated is much too narrow.

This view would only make sense if detaching copies from usage controls
were easy.  Today it is, and there is a common misconception that this will
continue.  But it won't.  Cryptographers especially should understand this.

The same base technology that makes it extremely
difficult to mint one's own digital coins in someone else's currency will
make it extremely difficult to use someone else's digital content without
complying with their controls (including payment).  It is inconsistent to
say that digital money can have persistent value and digital content cannot.
Both are information.  Both based on a common faith in a 'brand': either
the U.S. Treasury or Disney.  Same idea.

Best,

- Art


Art Hutchinson                                       hutchinson at ncri.com
Northeast Consulting Resources, Inc.     phone: (617) 654-0635
One Liberty Square                                 fax: (617) 654-0654
Boston, MA 02160                                 www.ncri.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Working at the intersection of business and IT strategy to
help organizations embrace electronic commerce opportunities"



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From schear at lvdi.net  Sat Nov  8 11:06:33 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 03:06:33 +0800
Subject: New GAO y2k reports
Message-ID: <v03102802b08a3cb3fc04@[208.129.55.202]>

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From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov  8 11:14:25 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 03:14:25 +0800
Subject: S/MIME Mail Security WG approved - IETF
Message-ID: <v0311071db08a671c5524@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:37:28 -0500
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
From: Vin McLellan <vin at shore.net>
Subject: S/MIME Mail Security WG approved - IETF
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Vin McLellan <vin at shore.net>

<Forwarded message; off the IETF-Announce mailing list>
-------------------------

To: IETF-Announce: ;
Subject: WG ACTION: S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:19:29 -0500
From: Steve Coya <scoya at cnri.reston.va.us>

A new working group has been approved in the Security Area of the
IETF. Contact the Area Director or Working Group Chair for more
information.


S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
----------------------------


 Chair(s):
     Russ Housley <housley at spyrus.com>

 Security Area Director(s):
     Jeffrey Schiller  <jis at mit.edu>

 Security Area Advisor:
     Jeffrey Schiller  <jis at mit.edu>

 Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion:ietf-smime at imc.org
     To Subscribe:      ietf-smime-request at imc.org
     Archive:           http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/

Description of Working Group:

The S/MIME Working Group will define MIME encapsulation of digitally
signed and encrypted objects whose format is based on PKCS #7. [1] X.509
Certificates and CRLs as profiled by the existing PKIX Working Group
will be used to support authentication and key management. The Working
Group will base its work on the S/MIME version 2 specification
(available from RSA Data Security), but the Working Group will be free
to change any part of that specification. In particular, the Working
Group will prepare a new document that allows algorithm independence,
based on PKCS #7 1.5.

The message syntax specification, based on PKCS #7 version 1.5, will be
expanded to allow additional key signature and key exchange algorithms.
The message and certificate specifications will be revised to allow them
to become standards. The optional security extensions document will
specify protocols that allow for additional security features, such as
signed message receipts.

The S/MIME Working Group will attempt to coordinate its efforts with the
OpenPGP Working Group in areas where the work of the two groups overlap,
particularly in specification of cryptographic algorithms and MIME
structure.

[1] RSA Data Security publishes the PKCS Series of documents. RSA Data
Security has permitted the IETF to publish them as Informational RFCs as
well as to extend and enhance them.

 Goals and Milestones:

   Nov 97       Submit First draft of message syntax specification as an I-D.

   Nov 97       Submit First draft of S/MIME v3 message specification as an
                I-D.

   Nov 97       Submit First draft of S/MIME optional security extensions as an
                I-D.

   Nov 97       Submit First draft of S/MIME v3 certificate specification as an
                I-D

   Dec 97       WG Last Call on Message Syntax.

   Dec 97       WG Last Call on Certifiticate Specification.

   Dec 97       WG Last Call on Message specification.

   Jan 98       WG Last Call on Optional Security Extensions.

   Jan 98       Submit Message Syntax I-D to IESG for consideration as a

/end forwarded message/

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin at shore.net>    *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov  8 12:08:38 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 04:08:38 +0800
Subject: Senator Ashcroft on Encryption
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971108200131.00c02574@pop.pipeline.com>



[Congressional Record: November 7, 1997 (Senate)]
[Page S11959]
 
                         ENCRYPTION

  Mr. ASHCROFT. Mr. President, I wanted to take a moment to 
associate myself with the comments of the majority leader from 
October 21, 1997. Senator Lott has correctly highlighted the 
FBI's constantly shifting arguments and the Bureau's seemingly 
relentless attempts to grab more power at the expense of the 
Constitution, particularly the fourth amendment's protection 
of privacy and the fifth amendment's guarantee of due process.

  The FBI legislative proposal goes far beyond the Commerce 
Committee's misguided encryption legislation in further 
disregarding our Constitution. Instead of working with those who 
understand that S.909 gives the FBI unprecedented and troubling 
authority to invade lives, the FBI has attempted to grab even 
broader authority. The Senate would be foolish to pass S.909. 
In no way can we even consider the ill-advised FBI approach. 
The reach of the FBI has now extended so far that the President 
has taken the other side of the issue and supported a free 
market approach, according to his public comments delivered 
abroad.

  I can only conclude that the FBI has introduced its proposal 
as a ploy to make S.909 look like a reasonable compromise. The 
only other explanation for the FBI's proposal is that the Bureau 
will not be satisfied with S.909, but instead will continue to 
work to erode our Constitutional protections. In fact, the new 
proposal only draws attention to the many problems of the 
Commerce Committee language. Neither proposal is acceptable.

  The issue of encryption must be revisited in a real and serious 
way next year, both at the committee level and in the Senate 
chamber, to examine the many Constitutional implications of the 
various proposals. I look forward to working with the Majority 
Leader and other Senators who have expressed interest in 
encryption legislation.

  I yield the floor.

[End]

See Senator Lott's comments on encryption:

  http://jya.com/lott-crypto.htm






From whgiii at invweb.net  Sat Nov  8 13:12:50 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:12:50 +0800
Subject: Content controls
In-Reply-To: <v02140b10b08a1ba0a4ac@[198.115.135.201]>
Message-ID: <199711082059.PAA13397@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v02140b10b08a1ba0a4ac@[198.115.135.201]>, on 11/08/97 
   at 09:29 AM, hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson) said:

>>>>A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
>>>>auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
>>>>bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
>>>>networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
>>>>the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
>>>>information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
>>>>information process bites the dust.
>>
>>>Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information was
>>>stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin to
>>>*persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes and
>>>Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
>>>range of parameters (including price, usage context, and any other
>>>variable for which you can imagine having a certificate).  Whats
>>>fundamentally different about what are generically referred to as secure
>>>envelopes, is that they can maintain controls *indefinitely*
>>>(persistence), across an un-
>>>known, ad hoc, web of distribution over which one otherwise has no
>>>control.  And yes, this can all work even in a completely disconnected
>>>environment (laptop at 35,000 feet).
>>
>>>They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
>>>holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new
>>>ways, based on entirely new (or old) business models, that take advantage
>>>of rich/elaborate conditions for usage (e.g. you can view this picture
>>>anonymously, but it will cost you 2X as much, and you can only get it at
>>>low resolution, and you can't view it at all unless you can prove that
>>>you don't live in the Middle East).  No certificate for these conditions?
>>>Sorry, no content.
>>
>>>They are based the same basic stuff (public key cryptography of course)
>>>that *can* fuel wild anarchic visions of anonymous exchange.  ;)
>>
>>>But they aren't at all deterministic of any particular economic model.
>>
>>Well how exactly does one prevent data from being stolen once it has been
>>unlocked? I pay my 2X to view the picture anonymously and now I copy it
>>save it and distribute it worldwide. I fail to see how any
>>encryption/watermark scheme can prevent me from doing so.

>The control technologies to which I referred earlier turn the lock/unlock
>idea into far more than a binary choice.  This is what I meant by 
>"persistence".  The content cannot be used without its accompanying
>control set (which again, *might* include payment).  Part of the control 
>set I may impose on anonymous viewers could include preventing them from
>copying or saving the content directly in digital form.

>This is counter-intuitive to those of us who are used to having cut/paste
> available at our fingertips in most applications, but its relatively
>trivial  to disable these functions on a file by file basis. 
>Alternatively, I might impose controls that permit anonymous users to see
>*only* lower reso-
>lution versions. (by analogy, if you're going to wear a ski mask into a 
>jewelry store, you aren't likely to be shown the expensive stuff - if
>they let you in the door in the first place).

Can't do it. :)

Once you have given me the keys to unlock and display the data I can save
it, copy it, reproduce it and distribut it. To assume otherwise shows a
lack of understanding of computer systems and moderen OS's. Sure I would
need to write some software and jump through some hoops to do it but there
is nothing that your system can do to prevent me from doing so. Now wether
it is worth the effort to do so will depend on the value of the data
involved. Once you have given me the ability to display the data you have
lost the battle as I can do whatever I want with it. 

As far as the anonymous purchaces, no a big deal. Wan Sin Soo pays the
full $$$ amount decrypts the data, copies it and send it too his buddies
in Bangledesh. Next week there is a million copies of your data floating
around the Far-East and Wan Sin Soo is nowhere to be found. The fact that
he bought it non-anonymously is of little relevance.

>If you were really determined, you could always take a photo of the 
>screen, re-scan it, do some image enhancement to get rid of the graini-
>ness, re-save it and post it on your web page for all to see, (the
>so-called digital-to-analog-to-digital work-around), but this is darned
>inconvenient.   Also, try doing that with music or movies.... while
>avoiding the roving  automated net 'bots that will be out looking for
>illegal copies of content  (these are already common).  Not worth it. 
>For most people.

digital-analog-digital is completly unnessasary.

>If it were, we'd already have massive illegal scanning operations in 
>third-world countries, and plenty of demand for their wares.  Sure, this
>exists, and may even grow a bit around the fringes, but this hardly 
>proves the case for a single vision of an anarchic Robin Hood future for
>all content (Sell today else I rip you off tomorrow!!)

There are. China, Russia, Eastern Europe, Far East. You have multi-million
dollar operations that all they do is pirate software, movies, music,
...ect. If the can make money pirating your data then the will do so.

>As a non-disclosed third party, I'm not at liberty to discuss the 'guts'
>of  either the Crytolope or Digibox technologies (though I have seen
>them) Both are covered, as you might imagine, by a fairly extensive array
>of  active and pending patents.  If you want to learn more, I'd recommend
> contacting them directly:

I have not looked at Digibox but I have looked at Crytolope and the
technology can be defeated. All these systems do is make it hard for Joe
SixPack running WinBlows 2000 to make a couple of copies for his freinds.
For anyone determined to pirate the data this is just a minor
inconvienance just like other such schemes in the past.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Sat Nov  8 13:29:04 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:29:04 +0800
Subject: Hughes Markets? (finally some stimulating debate on dcsb)
In-Reply-To: <v03110710b08a5430e2ef@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199711082119.QAA13622@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03110710b08a5430e2ef@[139.167.130.248]>, on 11/08/97 
   at 12:39 PM, Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com> said:

>--- begin forwarded text


>X-Sender: hutchinson at click.ncri.com
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:28:21 -0500
>To: "R. Jason Cronk" <listmanager at orange.redmans.com>
>From: hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
>Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (finally some stimulating debate on dcsb)
>Cc: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
>Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: hutchinson at ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

>I wrote:

>>>Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information
>>>was stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin
>>>to *persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes
>>>and Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
>>
>><SNIP>
>>
>>>They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
>>>holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new

>To which R. Jason Cronk replied:

>>"if they so choose"  and here is where I submit the two camps divide.

>Yep.  I couldn't agree more.  There will be at *least* two, (and probably
>more like 2000) 'camps'.  And here is where I think we diverge....

>>Sure, you can decide to try to hold on to the rights, but it is going to be
>>market suicide.  Your best bet is to sell it all off, get what you can for
>>it and do it again. In other words, a recursive auction market.

>With more sophisticated tools for rights management, the market contest
>can  move to another level, with content business models *themselves*
>vying for attention.  Recursive auctions are merely one of these models.

>They may make perfect sense for the kind of content that is going to
>decline in value over time anyway (news, for example).  Not all content
>works this way though.  Recursive auction markets are exciting because
>for the most part, they haven't been possible in 'copyright' industries
>until recently.  Its easy to say that they will be more important than
>they are today.  They will.  But to say that they are fore-ordained as
>the only way for creators to get compensated is much too narrow.

>This view would only make sense if detaching copies from usage controls
>were easy.  Today it is, and there is a common misconception that this
>will continue.  But it won't.  Cryptographers especially should
>understand this.

You can use various "tricks" to make it more complicated but the fact
remains that at some point in time you have to present the data to the
user. Once you make this step the data can be snatched and seperated from
it's controls. Wether the effort to do this is worthwhile will depend on
the value of the data. 

>The same base technology that makes it extremely
>difficult to mint one's own digital coins in someone else's currency will
>make it extremely difficult to use someone else's digital content without
>complying with their controls (including payment).  It is inconsistent to
>say that digital money can have persistent value and digital content
>cannot. Both are information.  Both based on a common faith in a 'brand':
>either the U.S. Treasury or Disney.  Same idea.

Hogwash, you are compairing apples to oranges.

The value of money is that you can use it to purchase thing with it. A
forged copy of money is worthless because if the forgery is detected you
can buy anything with it. On the other hand a movie's value is in it's
entertainment from viewing it. I can just as easily be entertained by an
"forged" copy of snow white as well as an "official" copy. The fact that
it is a copy has not dimished it's value.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGTW8o9Co1n+aLhhAQFoUQP/WnsOpoCWCTROdcQ6Qf882ItTRdEVRmRc
YXEAfQpCyLmUewvOq1VobJDaIhvgI3gZPwQFEUuGRTDR18f9oLNbLFeY5DGB8VSO
fsDFanst/etOojx6k3w5cbQE0K/jNTTYRUUVW45UCFpwEvhP/x94dKqCMUxAMQZd
i251OO8Lraw=
=ud3e
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From emc at wire.insync.net  Sat Nov  8 13:34:22 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:34:22 +0800
Subject: F00FC7C8 Kills P5
Message-ID: <199711082128.PAA16878@wire.insync.net>



In comp.sys.intel, the keeper of the Intel Secrets Website,
rcollins at slip.net (Robert Collins) writes this absolutely amazing
paragraph:
 
> If nobody knew about this problem, nobody would be affected
> by it.  Therefore, without knowledge of this problem, there
> really isn't a reasonable security risk to multi-user
> systems.
 
> No, I had no desire to publicize the bug.
 
Egads.  Talk about "Security by Obscurity"!
 
Someone buy this poor man a Cypherpunks subscription.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov  8 14:11:54 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:11:54 +0800
Subject: Mathematician Sidney Darlington Dies
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971108220530.00bfc038@pop.pipeline.com>



NYT obit November 8:

Sidney Darlington, a Bell Labs mathematician who pioneered
the design of electronic circuits and whose formulas helped
launch rockets 300 times without error, died on Oct. 31 at his
home in Exeter, N.H. He was 91.

At Bell Labs, in Murray Hill, N.J., where he headed the 
mathematics research center, Dr. Darlington was ranked
alongside his colleague Claude Shannon for breakthroughs
in communications networks that foreshadowed the integrated
circuit and in turn computers and modern communications.

Dr. Darlington's discovery of ways to custom-design circuits
using precise mathematical specifications, a speciality now
called network synthesis theory, made him a leading authority
in electronic cirsuits for decades, said Dr. Ernest Kuh, a
former colleague who is now at the University of California
at Berkeley.

Before Dr. Darlington's work, circuits were designed in an
intuitive, ad hoc manner. His advances won him the highest
award in his field, the Medal of Honor of the Institute of
Electrical and Electronic Engineers.

At a chalkborad at Bell labs with three or four other rocket
guidance experts, he would scrawl equations that became
the basis for guiding the Air Force Titan I, the Thor-Delta
and dozens of other rockets.

His rocket guidance formulas could instantly plug in the
information from several sources -- the trajectory designed
to launch a staellite, the data from radar that tracked the
rocket, and the instruments in the rocket itself -- and
could then return a flow of commands to the rocket.

Always a tinkerer, Dr. Darlington in the 1950's spent a
weekend at home playing with a new gadget, the transistor.
Trying to get more gain from an amplifier the size of a kernel
of corn, he found a way to combine two or more transistors
in one chip, an idea that became the Darlington Compound
Chip and pointed the way toward integrated circuits.

-----

For more see NYT online: http://www.nytimes.com







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  8 14:47:55 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:47:55 +0800
Subject: Mixed Messages / Re: F00FC7C8 Kills P5 AND Re: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711082233.XAA11819@basement.replay.com>



Eric Cordian wrote:
> In comp.sys.intel, the keeper of the Intel Secrets Website,
> rcollins at slip.net (Robert Collins) writes this absolutely amazing
> paragraph:
> > If nobody knew about this problem, nobody would be affected
> > by it.  
> > No, I had no desire to publicize the bug.

> Egads.  Talk about "Security by Obscurity"!

Robert Hettinga wrote:
> Subject: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)

> CyberCash v. 2.1.2 has a major security flaw that causes all credit
> card information processed by the server to be logged in a file with
> world-readable permissions.  This security flaw exists in the default
> CyberCash installation and configuration.

We at the Electronic Fraud Foundation also have no desire for these
bugs to be publicized. We're making a goddamn fortune off of them.
(Damn near as much as we're making off of our remailer-donation scam.)

Ura Fishpal,
Flounder,
Electronic Fraud Foundation
[Note: You are required by Federal Law to pay me one dollar for reading
      this post. Send $1 to EFF, Box 281, Bienfait, Sask. Canada S0C
0M0]

[Note From Your System Administrator: Failure to comply with the above
    will result in loss of your access privileges and a hernia.]






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  8 15:11:08 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:11:08 +0800
Subject: Content controls
Message-ID: <199711082301.AAA15413@basement.replay.com>



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Someone typing with gloves on wrote:
> >by analogy, if you're going to wear a ski mask into a
> >jewelry store, you aren't likely to be shown the expensive stuff

Sounds like the voice of experience.

> Once you have given me the keys to unlock and display the data I can save
> it, copy it, reproduce it and distribut it. 

> As far as the anonymous purchaces, no a big deal. Wan Sin Soo pays the
> full $$$ amount decrypts the data, copies it and send it too his buddies
> in Bangledesh. Next week there is a million copies of your data floating
> around the Far-East and Wan Sin Soo is nowhere to be found. The fact that
> he bought it non-anonymously is of little relevance.

I have found WGMicro$oft.com to be much faster than the original web
site
as well as having much better prices. e.g. - $9.95 for Win95.
As well, access to the CIA Internal Search Engine ("The Search Engine
that Searches Back!") is just one of the many nice touches to be found
on pirate sites.

A.B. User
"It's not free until the *judge and jury* say it's free."






From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de  Sat Nov  8 16:33:18 1997
From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 08:33:18 +0800
Subject: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
In-Reply-To: <3463E8AC.3F54BC7E@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <m0xUKDq-0003bQC@ulf.mali.sub.org>



> > 20 % of the users who have posted digitally signed messages that are
> >  available in my news spool (international and local newsgroups and
> >  mailing lists) use PGP 5.  The sample contains 545 unique e-mail
> >  addresses.  YMMV.
> 
> These are very interesting results.  One question: what are the groups
> about?  Are they close in to PGP topics or far away?

A number of them are crypto related, including the OpenPGP and a
German PGP users' mailing list.  Perhaps someone with access to a
large newsserver could grep for PGP signatures on the rec.* hierarchy?






From Success at www.kse.or.kr  Sun Nov  9 09:00:47 1997
From: Success at www.kse.or.kr (Success at www.kse.or.kr)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:00:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE Software makes you MONEY
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@jakemax.com>


Fellow Networker:

Please take  a close look at MEGA RESOURCE software for fast cash building and advertising you product and program on software 
WORLDWIDE!

This is NOT Meganets, Megabucks, or like any of those other software programs out there. You actually get a product for each code
you buy to unlock the software.

UNLIMITED LEVELS-unlike the other programs where you drop off the disks.

For a FREE EVALUATION copy and the download site and info,

"mail to: freeinfo at globals-ads.com" for instant info back. DO NOT HIT "REPLY"

If you wish to be REMOVED from *this* mailing list, please
hit reply and type "REMOVE" in the SUBJECT field (not the body).
Our servers are will automatically remove you from our database within 24hrs.









From jal at acm.org  Sat Nov  8 17:08:06 1997
From: jal at acm.org (Jamie Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:08:06 +0800
Subject: Mixed Messages / Re: F00FC7C8 Kills P5 AND Re: Major securityflaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711082233.XAA11819@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03110701b08aabba48ad@[10.0.2.15]>



At 11:33 PM +0100 on 11/8/97, Anonymous wrote:


> Eric Cordian wrote:
> > In comp.sys.intel, the keeper of the Intel Secrets Website,
> > rcollins at slip.net (Robert Collins) writes this absolutely amazing
> > paragraph:
> > > If nobody knew about this problem, nobody would be affected
> > > by it.
> > > No, I had no desire to publicize the bug.

> We at the Electronic Fraud Foundation also have no desire for these
> bugs to be publicized. We're making a goddamn fortune off of them.
> (Damn near as much as we're making off of our remailer-donation scam.)

Hope you're making a kill(1)ing.

Too bad any semi-intelligent entity with access to Alta-Vista can find
enough info to exploit this bug, right now...

Here's to hoping the remailer scam works out better -

-j

--
"This analogy is like lifting yourself by your own bootstraps."
                                         -Douglas R. Hofstadter
_______________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                      jal at acm.org







From emc at wire.insync.net  Sat Nov  8 17:10:56 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:10:56 +0800
Subject: Sloppy Chips from Intel
Message-ID: <199711090056.SAA17235@wire.insync.net>



By now everyone has probably heard that Intel Pentium and Pentium MMX
chips hang when executing the instruction sequence F00FC7C8 even when
in an outer ring of privilege or in V86 mode.
 
With numerous small Linux-based ISPs out there, often providing shell
services to anonymous customers, or serving customer-provided CGI
programs, the existence and public disclosure such an easily
exploitable flaw in their CPU's hardware protection mechanism is
catastrophic.
 
Intel, rather than extensively verifying their microprocessors before
shipping them out the door, now advertises that its chips may contain
"errata," or "deviations from published specifications" and doesn't
seem to regard such problems as any big deal.
 
This latest flaw is the third unexpected surprise in Intel's Pentium
product line.  A serious precision problem in double precision
floating divide was discovered in early Pentium chips, and it was
recently disclosed that there are circumstances under which the
Pentium Pro may fail to generate an exception when a Float to Integer
conversion overflows.
 
While today's problem does not permit clandestine entry into a system,
since it kills the system when it is exercised, it does raise the
question of whether there are other more subtle problems in the
hardware protection mechanism, which might enable knowlegable users to
execute an occasional instruction at the wrong privelege level, or
otherwise do things which should be prohibited according to the
published hardware specifications.
 
It is interesting to note that such problems have not been reported in
compatible chips manufactured by AMD, a competitor of Intel.
 
Buggy microprocessor microcode can produce very subtle exploitable
faults in a chip, which are almost impossible to notice when running
ordinary applications and operating systems.  Instructions may do the
wrong thing only when they follow certain other instructions.  There
may be rare times when the processor is wrongly interruptable, or when
a restricted instruction is not forbidden, or is given access at the
wrong privilege level, or with incorrect address translation.
 
Were such features to be deliberately introduced into a chip, in order
to permit a backdoor for undetected entry, they could be made
completely undetectable, and could depend upon any number of unlikely
conditions, or even specific hidden register values, in order to be
made manifest.  Every microprocessor could even have its own "key" for
the activation of such "special features."
 
Unlike Unix, for which complete compilable source code is available,
we know little about what what microcode is run through the several
million transistors on a typical microprocessor. If sloppy engineering
alone produces such dangerous faults, imagine what could happen should
industry decide to deliberately cooperate with various LEAs and TLAs.
(In the national interest, of course.)
 
The possiblities are truly mind-boggling.  Perhaps exploits like tapping
Aldrich Ames' PC and crashing Saddam Husseins' PCs en masse were not done
by black bag jobs and viri, but by the activation of "National Security"
backdoors present in all complex modern microprocessors.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

 






From pooh at efga.org  Sat Nov  8 17:37:17 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:37:17 +0800
Subject: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
In-Reply-To: <3463E8AC.3F54BC7E@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971108202227.0353aeec@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:23 AM 11/9/97 +0100, Ulf M�ller wrote:
>> > 20 % of the users who have posted digitally signed messages that are
>> >  available in my news spool (international and local newsgroups and
>> >  mailing lists) use PGP 5.  The sample contains 545 unique e-mail
>> >  addresses.  YMMV.

Just to skew the numbers, I for instance have PGP 5.0 but am using a 2.6.2 
DOS generated key that is RSA, not DSS.  Grepping would show me to be PGP5.x, 
which perhaps technically I am, but my key is really 2.x


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNGUQUEGpGhRXg5NZAQF7fQH5AfV2VfTwuLYs1ND6UTwoWIzAf3OjTSA8
saBlUQJquCUotwr5zk3cU+KiJJ9/hgLsLzOfet16ow1Do3zop7zUJw==
=VDPv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From skyway at t-1net.com  Sun Nov  9 10:48:02 1997
From: skyway at t-1net.com (skyway at t-1net.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:48:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Make money From People Watching TV
Message-ID: <199709251239.GCC09047@t-1net.com>



                  Just Released

Bill Gates has just joined with Ted Turner and Rupert Murdock to form the
greatest consortium of combined technology and opportunity available today!

Their plan is to take over the digital communications market by setting up
people with DSS satellite equipment at no charge.  

As a representative with our company, you will get paid between $25 and
$100 for "giving away" Digital Direct Satellites, For every person that joins
the business with you  to give away free Digital Direct Satellites, you
will make an additional $55 to $280

We are getting paid for getting consumers set up with a total Digital Direct 
Satellite system with no charge, and building the distribution network of 
the future.  

Imagine how easy it is to give these away!  In the first week sharing it
with friends I gave away 5 not even trying and made an extra $375.  There
are no credit applications for the client to fill out, no mandatory 12
month contracts to join, and no surprises later down the line.  The company
will even upgrade the system later if it becomes obsolete, For Free!

This new union was created intentionally to capture a huge active ongoing
database of consumers.  That's right, consumers who will purchase
continuously from shows like QVC, HSN and many others, and when they
purchase off of the TV you as a distributor will also make a commission off
everything that they order, even while you are out golfing or sleeping, 24
hours a day.  All this from you having them fill out an application that
should take no more than 60 seconds.  There are several other ways to get
paid also, and I have enclosed the actual application for you to review.

Could you imagine Christmas when they are buying like crazy and you are
getting paid up to 30% of what they purchase off the television? I could
and that's why we are here.  Come "profit from the future of television"
and join the fastest growing segment of this company and become a winner
with us.

If you are ready for the greatest business opportunity to come down the
pike, don't miss this one, it is only 2 months old!!!

Give our information hot line a call at 1-800-942-9304 pin #20088


CHECK OUT http://www.millenniumgroup2000.com

--------------------------
Removes to skyway at t-1net.com, put remove in subject, thanks.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  8 19:13:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:13:38 +0800
Subject: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
Message-ID: <199711090303.EAA18301@basement.replay.com>



Robert A. Costner wrote:
> Just to skew the numbers, I for instance have PGP 5.0 but am using a 2.6.2
> DOS generated key that is RSA, not DSS.  Grepping would show me to be PGP5.x,
> which perhaps technically I am, but my key is really 2.x
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

This information is mostly for advertising/accreditation purposes.
As such, it provides very little information useful for statistical
purposes. e.g. - whether people are using PGP 5.X mostly for management
of their PGP 2.6.X keys.






From stevet at myofb.org  Sat Nov  8 20:34:51 1997
From: stevet at myofb.org (Steve Thompson)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:34:51 +0800
Subject: Return of the Living Zundel, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <878931021v03007803b089126cf351@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <199711090423.XAA01025@bofh.internal.net>



In local.lists.cypherpunks-moderated you write:
>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1561,00.html
>The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
>        "A lot of people think this case is about censoring the Net,"
>   said Bernie Farber, national director of community relations for the
>   Canadian Jewish Congress. "It isn't. It's about a Canadian violating
>   Canadian law. In Canada and in every other Western democracy but the
>   U.S., there are limits to free speech and one of those points is
>   vilification. I should feel I have as much right to get on the Net and
>   not feel demeaned because I'm a part of a particular group."

I took a short 'course' on hate-crimes in downtown Toronto where this goof was
the speaker.  In very short order, I had decided that his agenda was merely to
be in some small position of authority.  He's a pro-censorship freak who wants
to protect the chiiillldreeeen from views he doesn't like.  It was quite
amusing to pin him down a little -- he squirmed and stated that he _did_ want
the government to protect him from things he didn't want to hear; in a rather
shrill tone.  It made me laugh in retrospect but at the time I was, I confess,
shocked -- having encountered such idiocy only in print or on USENET.

I wish that I had been better at articulating my thoughts during some of the
discussions during the 'course'.  It was difficult to portray the idea that
well-supported arguements are the only _fair_ means to debunk someone else's
ideas with which you disagree.  I suppose that I should not have been suprised
that the other participants in the course were sympathetic to Bernie's
right-wing leanings, but there was a woman who owned or ran a feminist
bookstore who admitted that many books ordered by her store had been held (or
outright banned(?) by Canada Customs based on content; and yet, she was
more-or-less in agreement with this proto-tyrant with respect to the issue of
supressing the ideas of white supremists.

It boggles the mind.

-- 
Steve Thompson  Misanthrope  System Admin        O.B. Spam: bogus at myofb.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lately every time you turn around somebody's saying: "The eighties are
coming!"  Like at the stroke of midnite on New Year's Eve it's all gonna be
_different_!  And when you tell 'em, "Come on, you know everything's just
gonna keep on slowly sinking," they get downright _mad_!  -- Lester Bangs,
December 1979






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Nov  8 21:04:43 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:04:43 +0800
Subject: Sloppy Chips from Intel
Message-ID: <19971109050004.11002.qmail@nym.alias.net>



>The possiblities are truly mind-boggling.  Perhaps exploits like tapping
>Aldrich Ames' PC and crashing Saddam Husseins' PCs en masse were not done
>by black bag jobs and viri, but by the activation of "National Security"
>backdoors present in all complex modern microprocessors.

Of course a conspiracy theorist might guess that this "new bug" is really a
result of somebody hitting some "national security opcode" and we just
happened to hit one of the more benign "bugs". I think you alluded to this.






From cci at dev.null  Sat Nov  8 21:11:41 1997
From: cci at dev.null (Crypto Czar International)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:11:41 +0800
Subject: Unbreakable Crypto Challenge!!!
In-Reply-To: <19971108.120158.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <346544D9.254F@dev.null>



CCI:
   CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL ANNOUNCES UNBREAKABLE CRYPTO CHALLENGE
   ----------------------------------------------------------------

Crypto Czar International would like to announce the development of the
fastest and most secure encryption product on the market today.
We plan to develop this product early next week, as our employee has 
already finished the first two chapters of 'Applied Cryptography.'

We are so confident of our future product that we are challenging
MagNuts, Micro$oft, Nut$crape and everyone else to break it. We are
willing to pay out a $10,000,0000 prize to anyone willing to give us a 
$1,000 good-faith deposit, which will be returned upon completion of our
open-ended Crypto Challenge.

Please send ten copies of this to your friends and to your business
associates.

  The address to send the good-faith deposit to:
	Crypto Czar International
	c/o Electronic Fraud Foundation
	Box 281,
	Bienfait, Saskatchewan
		CANADA  S0C 0M0






From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov  8 21:13:39 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:13:39 +0800
Subject: Cop Nation / Re: E-Peso's for tractors - McCaffrey on banking
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb08a5388bb6a@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <34653BB8.4EF8@dev.null>



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> From: "Blair Anderson" <blair at technologist.com>
> Subject: E-Peso's for tractors - McCaffrey on banking

>          U.S. drug czar appeals to banks to track laundering
>          By Anthony Boadle
> 
>          WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Bankers, watch those ``smurf''
>          accounts.
...
>          Any innocent-looking person could be depositing a drug
>          baron's cash parceled into amounts smaller that the
>          $10,000 reporting threshhold to avoid suspicion, so get
>          to know your customer, they warned.

  Is it my imagination, or can the above be loosely translated as,
"_Everyone_ is a suspect!" 
 
>          ``We are losing contact with the enemy,'' the general
>          said. ''The government cannot follow laundering by
>          itself. You are going to have to help.''

  "I turned in my best customer, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt!"
 
>          McCaffrey said the drug trade was moving into new areas
>          such as the securities industry to launder its profits.

  Looks like we're going to need some additional snitches in that
area. I wonder if the grade-school narc-trainers are going to advise
the children to go through their parent's finiancial statements while
they are searching for the parent's bag of pot.
  Perhaps those who fail to graduate from high-school can get a GED
later in life by turning in their spouse's parents to John Law.
  Can't get that promotion at the bank because the position requires 
an MBA? Ratting out your customers (guilty or not--and *you* are 
keeping the books) can get you valuable college credits.

>          Keely, a former New York City police commissioner,
>          warned that money laudering was corroding financial
>          institutions.

   ...but failed to mention if there was a 'down-side' as well.

>          ``It is the source and the product of a burgeoning
>          global parallel trading system that serves the emerging
>          criminal holding companies,'' he told the bankers and
>          lawyers.

  Which provides funding for a large number of secret government
agencies. 

>          The banking industry complained it had to file 12
>          million such reports in 1996, a time consuming and
>          costly activity.

  The alternative is to risk being indicted as a co-conspirator in your
customer's crimes.
  That reminds me...I bought a glass of lemonade from a neighborhood
kid's sidewalk stand today. I'd better go rat her out to the Treasury
Department and the DEA, so that when they show up on my doorstep they
will have a T-shirt for me, instead of handcuffs.

RatMonger







From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov  8 21:51:08 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:51:08 +0800
Subject: Rape as Performance Art
Message-ID: <590d547aee74823c9eb0b34c295dbc5a@anon.efga.org>



I can sympathize with the demonstrators that the Humboldt Sheriff's
Department sprayed with pepper spray during their sit-in/protest.
The police have done the same thing to me during the closing scenes
of my performance art, as I climb out of the performance victim's
window and try to make a run for it.
I have found that judges are seldom impressed with a plea of, "Everyone
wants to be a critic!"

Art Lover
(aka 'SouthSide Slasher')
"It's not art until *I* have slashed it with a razor."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  8 21:55:47 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:55:47 +0800
Subject: Return of the Living Zundel, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199711090544.GAA04712@basement.replay.com>



Steve Thompson wrote:
> In local.lists.cypherpunks-moderated you write:
> >http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1561,00.html
> >The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
> >        "A lot of people think this case is about censoring the Net,"
> >   said Bernie Farber, national director of community relations for the
> >   Canadian Jewish Congress. "It isn't. It's about a Canadian violating
> >   Canadian law. In Canada and in every other Western democracy but the
> >   U.S., there are limits to free speech and one of those points is
> >   vilification.

> I took a short 'course' on hate-crimes in downtown Toronto where this goof was
> the speaker.  In very short order, I had decided that his agenda was merely to
> be in some small position of authority.  He's a pro-censorship freak who wants
> to protect the chiiillldreeeen from views he doesn't like.  It was quite
> amusing to pin him down a little -- he squirmed and stated that he _did_ want
> the government to protect him from things he didn't want to hear; in a rather
> shrill tone.  It made me laugh in retrospect but at the time I was, I confess,
> shocked -- having encountered such idiocy only in print or on USENET.

  After the government has finished arming park rangers, as well as all
federal daycare workers and filing clerks, I suppose they will begin
giving
surplus military weapons to USENET censors, and the like, and deputizing
them so that they can legally enforce their own narrow views.
 
> It boggles the mind.

  Hey! Watch your language, pal. You can't say 'boggles' on a family
list!

BogglesMonger






From matrix at meganet.com  Sat Nov  8 23:39:06 1997
From: matrix at meganet.com (VME Encryption)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:39:06 +0800
Subject: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971108233246.006dc0b0@ibcnet.com>



Please forward to this coward that have no balls to put his real email
address on his emails (I using you guys as he put CC to you guys in his
letter, but by no means does this reffer to you).

Dear CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL Idiot,

usually we ignore people at your level, but we'll try our best for you, as
it might be just temorary insanity.

1) The million dollars challenge have ended at May 15,1997. The current
challenge have NO monetary prize.
2) VME flowchart, algorithms and the VME application itself is already in
the hands of the large 250 sotware corporations for evaluation. If any of
them will prove otherwise, then you might be able to jump and make an idiot
of yourself as you did now.
3) We beleive they might like what they saw, as we currently have them
lined up to license the technology.
4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

Maybe you really should try and develop some future encryption algorithm
instead of mumbling with envy showing your stupidity and ignorance, But on
the other hand you're probably not capable of - you're too narrow minded
and busy sticking your long nose where it does not belong.

Do us and you a favour, keep yourself in your pathetic hole and shut your
mouth up.

Thanks and worst regards,

(we won't bother putting our name on the same email with your name).

At 11:06 PM 11/8/97 -0600, you wrote:
>CCI:
>   CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL ANNOUNCES UNBREAKABLE CRYPTO CHALLENGE
>   ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Crypto Czar International would like to announce the development of the
>fastest and most secure encryption product on the market today.
>We plan to develop this product early next week, as our employee has 
>already finished the first two chapters of 'Applied Cryptography.'
>
>We are so confident of our future product that we are challenging
>MagNuts, Micro$oft, Nut$crape and everyone else to break it. We are
>willing to pay out a $10,000,0000 prize to anyone willing to give us a 
>$1,000 good-faith deposit, which will be returned upon completion of our
>open-ended Crypto Challenge.
>
>Please send ten copies of this to your friends and to your business
>associates.
>
>  The address to send the good-faith deposit to:
>	Crypto Czar International
>	c/o Electronic Fraud Foundation
>	Box 281,
>	Bienfait, Saskatchewan
>		CANADA  S0C 0M0
>
>







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  9 01:17:20 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:17:20 +0800
Subject: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
Message-ID: <199711090908.KAA22793@basement.replay.com>




VME Encryption wrote:
> Please forward to this coward that have no balls to put his real email
> address on his emails (I using you guys as he put CC to you guys in his
> letter, but by no means does this reffer to you).

  Obviously, no one has informed the night janitor at VME that regular
list subscribers generally just put Toto's email address in replies to
particularly cowardly and/or stupid anonymous posts, since we then have
a 90% chance of having sent it to the right person.

  As an act of mercy toward Toto, I will personally correct the spelling
and grammar in the night-janitor's post and forward it to the madman
at 'Che(z) Sympatico.'

> Dear CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL Idiot,
> 1) The million dollars challenge have ended at May 15,1997. The current
> challenge have NO monetary prize.
...
> 4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
> around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

  According to a claim by TruthMonger, Dr. Vulis found the backdoor in 
VME's encryption program, and the test message contained a plea for
donations from the Georgia Cracker remailer operators.
  I was originally skeptical about this claim, until sources at C2Nut
confirmed it.

Sincerely,
Ura Fishpal,
  Flounder and Comptroller
  Electronic Fraud Foundation






From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov  9 02:04:44 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:04:44 +0800
Subject: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971108233246.006dc0b0@ibcnet.com>
Message-ID: <199711091000.FAA21529@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.32.19971108233246.006dc0b0 at ibcnet.com>, on 11/08/97 
   at 11:32 PM, VME Encryption <matrix at meganet.com> said:

>4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
>around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

OH NO!! Anything but that!!! I wouldn't send the lawyers after my worst
enemy, a bullet to the back of the head is much more humane!

I can only hope this is another post by the EFF (Electronic Fraud
Foundation) of course the poster could really be this clueless. If this is
the case, for the paltry sum of $100,000 I can set you up with a "CLUE
SERVER" and at no added charge I will teach you how to make use of digital
signature for message authentication.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGWJTI9Co1n+aLhhAQFpOAP+MaRm5NKRWd+jcL/rZq12yhYeoSTfS395
9z6MFlpoRqIRTaatHoUNty/KvzejCm3kI0K2rShFQb/sDAIskNLOx6xaTVIRJK0s
iZlIswtAsW5zb3sEJRYqbwd/6x5UipdsE6MHXKSNwmj20RWxrK+nz3Pfmu/wBa58
EUCyhOkLyF4=
=WBQM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From brian at firstgear.com  Sun Nov  9 18:45:08 1997
From: brian at firstgear.com (brian at firstgear.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:45:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Your Internet Privacy
Message-ID: <199611090943.JAB04289@mail.firstgear.com>




                           "NET DETECTIVE"
                     
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                          ORDER FORM
                     (Please print clearly)
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
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email ASAP.

Thanks again for ordering!


Brian Leeds
Leeds Publishing
>
>____________________________________________________________
>____________________________________________________________
>
>
>Copyright 1997 Leeds Publishing.  All rights reserved.
Form 10-24 GD-ND
>




































From 98052 at juno.com  Sun Nov  9 19:28:20 1997
From: 98052 at juno.com (98052 at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:28:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: LEARN HOW TO WIN MORE AT THE HORSE & DOG TRACKS!!!
Message-ID: <1432767@winner.com>


FINALLY... A PROVEN AND UNCOMPLICATED METHOD TO INCREASE YOUR
WINNINGS AT THE HORSE AND DOG TRACKS!  YOU MUST SEE IT TO BELIEVE 
IT                                                    IT WORKS!!!!!

                    CLICK ON OUR WEBSITE FOR MORE INFORMATION
  CLICK HERE NOW!!

                                  To remove your name from our list click below.
                        Remove







From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov  9 04:11:18 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:11:18 +0800
Subject: [URGENT] ZKP
Message-ID: <7052fc4fb6f7b91316495c4daba58576@anon.efga.org>



Tim C. Maypole, a product of anal birth, appeared with a coathanger 
through his head.

         (_) _____ (_)
            /O   O\   Tim C. Maypole
           !   I   !
           ! \___/ !
            \_____/






From 38121737 at ibm.net  Sun Nov  9 22:09:08 1997
From: 38121737 at ibm.net (38121737 at ibm.net)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:09:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SUCCESS ON THE NET
Message-ID: <>


Hello:

I would like to share with you some information that will help you be successful at 
marketing online. If you're not interested then click on the reply button and type REMOVE
in the subject area and send it back to me and I will remove you from my list.

First of all for only $69 you can become an Insider and receive many benefits:

EMAIL PLATINUM SOFTWARE/ONE MILLION EMAIL ADDRESSES/REMOVAL LISTS/
CHECK-BY-FAX, PHONE, EMAIL SOFTWARE/ADVERTISING/FORUMS & CHAT 
TO HELP YOU FIND OUT WHAT OTHER SUCCESSFUL MARKETERS ARE DOING 
AND LOTS OF OTHER SOFTWARE. CHECK OUT THE WEB SITE TO FIND OUT 
MORE!   http://www.insidermall.com    PIN# 1184

Maybe you don't have anything to market or would be interested in other opportunities
to market. Pull my fax-on-demand at 716-720-2103  document #1 for some excellent
opportunities and information on my fax broadcasting services and fax lists. Fax the last
page to 334-297-5905 and I will fax or email you 152 clean MLM fax numbers.

If you were to ask me which opportunity has the greatest income potential I would tell you-
SOLUTIONS FOR TROUBLED TIMES. It is a PC-based system that provides valuable
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also receive a self-replicating web page. Call the toll-free hotline at 800-935-5171 #3021
and then email or fax me for more information. You may also listen to the weekly
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Thanks for reading this and may you have success on the net!

 DON- EMAIL:  nobber at ibm.net      FAX: 334-297-5905





From 38121737 at ibm.net  Sun Nov  9 22:09:08 1997
From: 38121737 at ibm.net (38121737 at ibm.net)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:09:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SUCCESS ON THE NET
Message-ID: <>


Hello:

I would like to share with you some information that will help you be successful at 
marketing online. If you're not interested then click on the reply button and type REMOVE
in the subject area and send it back to me and I will remove you from my list.

First of all for only $69 you can become an Insider and receive many benefits:

EMAIL PLATINUM SOFTWARE/ONE MILLION EMAIL ADDRESSES/REMOVAL LISTS/
CHECK-BY-FAX, PHONE, EMAIL SOFTWARE/ADVERTISING/FORUMS & CHAT 
TO HELP YOU FIND OUT WHAT OTHER SUCCESSFUL MARKETERS ARE DOING 
AND LOTS OF OTHER SOFTWARE. CHECK OUT THE WEB SITE TO FIND OUT 
MORE!   http://www.insidermall.com    PIN# 1184

Maybe you don't have anything to market or would be interested in other opportunities
to market. Pull my fax-on-demand at 716-720-2103  document #1 for some excellent
opportunities and information on my fax broadcasting services and fax lists. Fax the last
page to 334-297-5905 and I will fax or email you 152 clean MLM fax numbers.

If you were to ask me which opportunity has the greatest income potential I would tell you-
SOLUTIONS FOR TROUBLED TIMES. It is a PC-based system that provides valuable
information on offshore banking/investments, reducing income taxes, and it is also a lead
generating and advertising program. You don't have to worry about some company
giving you the shaft because with SFTT you are in control. It pays on 7 levels and you 
also receive a self-replicating web page. Call the toll-free hotline at 800-935-5171 #3021
and then email or fax me for more information. You may also listen to the weekly
conference call on Tuesdays at 10:30 pm EST by calling 423-362-4350  ext. 4201.

Thanks for reading this and may you have success on the net!

 DON- EMAIL:  nobber at ibm.net      FAX: 334-297-5905





From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  9 07:29:32 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:29:32 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
Message-ID: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>




Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
>There is a SERIOUS bug in all pentium CPUs. The following 
>code will crash any machine running on a pentium CPU, MMX or no 
>MMX, any speed, regardless of OS (crash as in instant seize, hard 
>reboot the only cure):
>
>char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };
>
>main ()
>{
>       void (*f)() = x;
>       f();
>}
>
>This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
>average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
>Demand a new CPU from Intel.

This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  9 11:00:37 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:00:37 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
Message-ID: <199711091855.TAA23477@basement.replay.com>



>Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>There is a SERIOUS bug in all pentium CPUs. The following
>>code will crash any machine running on a pentium CPU, MMX or no
>>MMX, any speed, regardless of OS (crash as in instant seize, hard
>>reboot the only cure):
>>
>>char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };
>>
>>main ()
>>{
>>       void (*f)() = x;
>>       f();
>>}
>>
>>This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
>>average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
>>Demand a new CPU from Intel.
>
>This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?

Absolutely not. It crashed mine and is a major bug. It doesn't seem to
affect the PPro, though, and not the P2 due to its relation to the PPro. It
might be fixed in later Pentiums, which begs the question of why Intel
didn't issue a recall back then. Supposidly they were informed about it
months ago.

Read comp.sys.intel.






From rich at paranoid.org  Sun Nov  9 11:01:10 1997
From: rich at paranoid.org (Rich Burroughs)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:01:10 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971109105027.11688B-100000@highly.paranoid.org>



On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Neva Remailer wrote:

[snip]
> This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?

I wish.  It drops the P120 I tested it on like a rock, when executed
from a normal user account in Linux.  This does not crash the PPro or PII
-- my PII just dumps core.

There's been an article on this at CNet, for one, and a lot of discussion
on Bugtraq and comp.sys.intel.  If this is a hoax, a lot of pretty smart
people have been fished in.


Rich

---
Rich Burroughs  rich at paranoid.org
PGP Key Fingerprint = 22 BA C5 D7 2C 34 BF 8E  B5 82 2E 13 46 38 AA 1D
Cracking RC5-64 for Kevin Mitnick  http://www.paranoid.org/mitnick/







From dee at cybercash.com  Sun Nov  9 11:16:07 1997
From: dee at cybercash.com (Donald E. Eastlake 3rd)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:16:07 +0800
Subject: Freeware SET?
In-Reply-To: <v03110701b08a31e6dc15@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971109140648.27693D-100000@cybercash.com>



The SET reference implementation was written only with a concern for protocol
correctness and essentially no concern for operational usability.  It is not
clear to me that a product could be based on it without a lot of additonal
work.  But I suppose it might be useful for hacking... 


Donald

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote: 

> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:12:49 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
> 
> 
> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 04:49:34 +0100 (CET)
> From: Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to>
> To: cypherpunks-announce at toad.com, cypherpunks at algebra.com,
>         cryptography at c2.net, andrada at earthlink.net, andrea.liles at nike.com
> Subject: Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting announcement
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Reply-To: Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to>
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Tomorrow's Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will be held at the offices of
> C2Net Software in Oakland.
> 
> Agenda:
> o Andrea Liles will present some cool new ideas about virtual CA's.
> 
> o Lucky Green will demonstrate the Dumb Mouse, a universal chipcard
> reader, and associated analysis/manipulation software. If you are at all
> interested in smartcards, especially smartcards for crypto and
> authentication purposes, you don't want to miss this one. If there aren't
> too many attendees, we will host a workshop. Attendees are encouraged to
> bring any smartcards in their possession and discover what is /really/
> happening on the card. The Cypherpunks Smartcard Developers Association
> will accept smartcard donations after the workshop.
> 
> o Cypherpunks Tonga will announce the release of BSAFEeay, a BSAFE 3.0 API
> compatible crypto library based on SSLeay.
> 
> o Cypherpunks Tonga will then combine BSAFEeay with the freeware SETref
> (which requires BSAFE for the underlying crypto) and demonstrate the first
> ever globally available *freeware* SET solution.
> 
> Location:
> C2Net Software
> 1440 Broadway
> 7th Floor
> Oakland, CA
> 
> Date/time:
> Saturday, 11/8, noon
> 
> Directions:
> By BART:
> Exit the system at 12th Street Oakland. Walk north on Broadway one block.
> 1440 is on the right side of the street.
> 
> By car:
> http://www.mapquest.com/
> Choose "Trip Quest" from the menu.
> 
> - -- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP 5.0i
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQA/AwUBNGPhYvXUPTw3WtkkEQKztACeIQwx4voyUVIP6u1HmosCWklX7osAnROD
> TTJn3K2jCIrKUQtOc5Z3oW1P
> =byR/
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>

=====================================================================
Donald E. Eastlake 3rd     +1 978-287-4877(tel)     dee at cybercash.com
   318 Acton Street        +1 978-371-7148(fax)     dee at world.std.com
Carlisle, MA 01741 USA     +1 703-620-4200(main office, Reston, VA)
http://www.cybercash.com           http://www.privacy.org/ipc






From emc at wire.insync.net  Sun Nov  9 11:41:03 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:41:03 +0800
Subject: Motorola Boo-Boo
Message-ID: <199711091934.NAA18005@wire.insync.net>



In the discussion of the Intel F00FC7C8 problem, it was alleged that
the instruction "unlk a7" will lock up a Motorola 68040 CPU even from
user mode. 

Would someone care to test this on an old MAC?

Is anyone aware of non-privileged instructions which kill other popular
CPUs, like Alphas, SPARCS, and MIPS?

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"







From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov  9 12:19:47 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 04:19:47 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <199711091855.TAA23477@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711092010.PAA27370@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711091855.TAA23477 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/09/97 
   at 07:55 PM, Anonymous <nobody at replay.com> said:

>>Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>>There is a SERIOUS bug in all pentium CPUs. The following
>>>code will crash any machine running on a pentium CPU, MMX or no
>>>MMX, any speed, regardless of OS (crash as in instant seize, hard
>>>reboot the only cure):
>>>
>>>char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };
>>>
>>>main ()
>>>{
>>>       void (*f)() = x;
>>>       f();
>>>}
>>>
>>>This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
>>>average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
>>>Demand a new CPU from Intel.
>>
>>This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?

>Absolutely not. It crashed mine and is a major bug. It doesn't seem to
>affect the PPro, though, and not the P2 due to its relation to the PPro.
>It might be fixed in later Pentiums, which begs the question of why Intel
>didn't issue a recall back then. Supposidly they were informed about it
>months ago.

For the same reason Intel does nothing about any of thier bugs: they are
assholes. The only way any of these type of things are ever addressed is
by enough users putting pressure on Intel to fix their fuckups. (Really
slopy not testing the microcode)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGYYLI9Co1n+aLhhAQGLwQQAwDfA4nDXuz+4cgssUCoGWmjDf0wauWf8
+ZxSiqQTPHoNbu73HMKYCUw0ieALwOXr/7FRNl6RnfTdQM6RnJ8PV5Z93psptM35
Ww45IUchuyC8C1IrPPRbMLgIBXi0Ey0E67IlrL24GUp2PgcAurhdeENGoKi3/sPA
tlO63XZaFms=
=WP0X
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  9 14:11:22 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:11:22 +0800
Subject: Kill -9.9
Message-ID: <199711092157.WAA14309@basement.replay.com>



Eric Cordian wrote:
> In the discussion of the Intel F00FC7C8 problem, it was alleged that
> the instruction "unlk a7" will lock up a Motorola 68040 CPU even from
> user mode.

> Is anyone aware of non-privileged instructions which kill other popular
> CPUs, like Alphas, SPARCS, and MIPS?

In a world where government agencies using fear of the 'enemy' and
bragging about their 'dirty tricks' to gain increasing funding, I 
am surprised that few seem to realize that many of the 'bugs' are 
actually 'features,' and that when one finds a true, non-designed bug 
in major hardware or software, there are certain government agencies
which may pay handsomely for the information, depending on the potential
and obscurity of the bug.
In a world where the value of 'tracking chips' and 'kill switches' on
personal automobiles is recognized, does anyone truly believe that
government agencies with billions of dollars worth of funding have
not recognized and instituted this technology surrupticiously in the
same areas where they brag about introducing 'faulty parts' into
weapons systems?

The government is desperate to maintain their electronic snooping and
warfare abilities as Year2000 approaches.
Hardware & Software == Intel & MicroSoft == VX-Chip & GAK/GMR

The government is using Anti-Trust actions to muscle both computer
giants.
A million dollar a day assault on MicroSoft, and release of compromising
'bug' information to put the squeeze on Intel.

KillMonger






From announce at dmail1.real-net.net  Sun Nov  9 14:27:10 1997
From: announce at dmail1.real-net.net (RealPlayer News)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:27:10 +0800
Subject: FREE Downloads on the new RealPlayer 5.0; FREE November Music Madness for RealPlayer Plus users
Message-ID: <199711092208.OAA30968@dmail1.real-net.net>



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 future announcements, please visit:
 http://www.real.com/mailinglist/index.html






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov  9 14:38:54 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:38:54 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
Message-ID: <a234f0adb3ba47b745bd58db33237e21@anon.efga.org>



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii at invweb.net> wrote:

>For the same reason Intel does nothing about any of thier bugs: they are
>assholes. The only way any of these type of things are ever addressed is
>by enough users putting pressure on Intel to fix their fuckups. (Really
>slopy not testing the microcode)

Yeah. A conspiracy theorist might be prompted to theorize that Intel
deliberately placed this in their processor, took a chance that nobody else
would find it and publically release it, and then leaked the information
themselves. If they refuse to replace the P5s many people will upgrade to a
PPro or a P5. Of course Cyrix and AMD throw a wrench into this theory, but
I doubt there are a whole lot of people who won't be buying any more Intel
products due to this, and some of the clones have or did have big problems 
such as annoyingly slow FPUs.

If they don't make it extraordinarily easy for me to replace my processor
I'll probably be one of the people who falls into the latter catagory and
goes off to Cyrixland.






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov  9 15:01:58 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:01:58 +0800
Subject: cute.
In-Reply-To: <19971101145349.14850@ultra7.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971109131752.0068c468@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

As Robert and Tim point out, the important issue is that
you can tell that a posting claiming to be from "Amad3us"
is or is not by the same set of authors as the previous
articles by the pseudonym "Amad3us".  This allows authors
to create and defend "reputation capital", and allows readers
to use the pseudonym to help evaluate their postings
and read them in the context of the previous postings by that nym,
regardless of which human body (or bodies) and True Name/s may
be attached to the author.

Without the signatures, the posting may be by an imposter
trying to take advantage of the positive reputation of a nym,
or trying to discredit the nym's reputation by bad postings,
or just having a Good Time with a hoax.  Most of the pseudonymous
posters on Cypherpunks, and for that matter many of the
Probably True Name posters, don't sign most of their postings,
and we don't have a lot of forgeries, but every once in a while
somebody will do a lot of forgery, or will target an individual,
and you can know that any _signed_ posting is from someone
who holds the keys used to sign previous postings with those keys.

In the Name=Key=Body model of the world, somebody can get
other people to verify their identity and sign for it;
if you're a pseudonym, your only choices are to reveal and 
demonstrate your identity to someone who can sign your keys,
or to just publish the keys early on and use them as needed.
In particular, if you publish the key with your first posting,
then you can demonstrate later that you're the poster who
used that name.  Thus, Checkered Daemon announced his nym with
a key, and since I could find no other record of use of that name,
I was willing to sign that key 0x50EC521D as his (I do use
a separate key for signing nyms; I've signed them for a few other
people such as Black Unicorn, some of whom I've since met in person.)
You can also get similar results by posting your key fingerprint
in your messages and sending the key to a keyserver, and it's
a bit more compact, but for a first posting using a nym
it's worthwhile to include the key.

In Amad3us's case, I've only seen the posting referring to his original,
and not the original itself, and it was garbled enough that
I couldn't add the key to my keyring.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  9 16:37:10 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:37:10 +0800
Subject: Key Signing
Message-ID: <199711100021.BAA03513@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> In particular, if you publish the key with your first posting,
> then you can demonstrate later that you're the poster who
> used that name.  Thus, Checkered Daemon announced his nym with
> a key, and since I could find no other record of use of that name,
> I was willing to sign that key 0x50EC521D as his (I do use
> a separate key for signing nyms; I've signed them for a few other
> people such as Black Unicorn, some of whom I've since met in person.)
> You can also get similar results by posting your key fingerprint
> in your messages and sending the key to a keyserver, and it's
> a bit more compact, but for a first posting using a nym
> it's worthwhile to include the key.

Excellent advice, Bill!
I am including the key (below) for my new nym, which has not been used
before, and would like for people to sign it and send the signed key
to the list.
This way, people will know by the signature, that it is, indeed:

Necessarily Knot, ME

- -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2

lQD4AzRmZWoAAAECAMnJrqd/TERCLeFscdgNvwVxrVG4tRm0VThMEXXkctCGMaUD
jcETxcV0ZseRUcyUKfqlLd3CRsIwClozlWHHR7EABREAAfwJ5D1Ecilit/Mwsn4N
GcWZXWpg3mM6/Epzs2pEhi3I926ZiWPB1DKmdZR4nVemsnwv47SWLJyCnE4sben5
h8oHAQDTFaJDJSN7+9NToOE4NFiruAXXMIHEQ6ZH21oW1sYSiwEA9LmhvfahDVKo
1/CMtxxozAtG8rWycBYVIVrkDKiVgjMBAKeB2VY/f7tzmv7KxUUtN9607+CQlWPp
E3HBLTlwtuRAUxC0FU5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IEtub3R0LCBNRQ==
=caeb
- -----END PGP MESSAGE-----


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNGZSSApaM5Vhx0exAQHWcQH/VHc1j8RenSUsPd+UJMCcrPWS5Euu+VVn
hD4zGvaJ9irsyh1eKDLbMOUO5dOwxQuOQGDI5rB6cRuoh9ULdQjQyw==
=c+x0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov  9 18:36:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:36:55 +0800
Subject: cute.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971101165942.0365b498@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b08c13dc4f16@[207.167.93.63]>



At 2:17 PM -0700 11/9/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>>>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>>>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.
>
>As Robert and Tim point out, the important issue is that
>you can tell that a posting claiming to be from "Amad3us"
>is or is not by the same set of authors as the previous
>articles by the pseudonym "Amad3us".  This allows authors
>to create and defend "reputation capital", and allows readers
...

And several days ago someone said, basically, "Fine, but this is only
needed once, and shouldn't be sent more than once...blah blah"

Well, each new entrant into the "cycle" is like a first time viewer or
receiver of this signature information.

I'm not saying a public key block should accompany all posts--the
keyservers work for that--but there is certainly no harm done.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From ulf at fitug.de  Mon Nov 10 12:18:38 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:18:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [patent] Secure electronic message transfer and voting scheme
In-Reply-To: <199711071614.KAA29877@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <m0xUzXM-0003bQC@ulf.mali.sub.org>


>Patent Number: 5682430 
>Inventor(s): Kilian, Joseph John{#buSako, Kazue#} 

The full text is available at <http://patent.womplex.ibm.com>.

The novelty in this patent is an algorithm that uses Fiat-Shamir to
prove that the mixes operate correctly.  The general idea of using
non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs to verify that mixes follow the
protocol was already published by Rackoff and Simon in 1991, although
that is not acknowledged in the patent specification.

Does anyone have details about Kilian's patent application on identity
escrow, other than the paper at <http://www.princeton.edu/~erez/ident.ps>?





From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov  9 21:53:55 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:53:55 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <ee060f3a0e4bf55a83116f8e795b2216@anon.efga.org>



In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:

   main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}

- f00fie






From ichudov at algebra.com  Sun Nov  9 21:57:29 1997
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:29 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <199711091855.TAA23477@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711100431.EAA00232@manifold.algebra.com>



Anonymous wrote:
> >Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
> >>There is a SERIOUS bug in all pentium CPUs. The following
> >>code will crash any machine running on a pentium CPU, MMX or no
> >>MMX, any speed, regardless of OS (crash as in instant seize, hard
> >>reboot the only cure):
> >>
> >>char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };
> >>
> >>main ()
> >>{
> >>       void (*f)() = x;
> >>       f();
> >>}
> >>
> >>This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
> >>average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
> >>Demand a new CPU from Intel.
> >
> >This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?
> 
> Absolutely not. It crashed mine and is a major bug. It doesn't seem to

Crashed mine, too. The following piece of code does the same thing
but compiles cleaner:

char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };

main ()
{
       void (*f)() = (void (*)())x;
       f();
}

> affect the PPro, though, and not the P2 due to its relation to the PPro. It
> might be fixed in later Pentiums, which begs the question of why Intel
> didn't issue a recall back then. Supposidly they were informed about it
> months ago.
> 
> Read comp.sys.intel.
> 



	- Igor.






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sun Nov  9 21:57:33 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:33 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711100352.TAA23129@sirius.infonex.com>



Monday, November 10, 1997 - 04:25:17 MET

The following is from http://www.mobil.com/speedpass/

Note that I've only quoted the parts I think are relevent
to a security discussion...

---begin quote---

How does Mobil Speedpass work?

Speedpass uses an electronic system located in the pump to 
"talk" with a miniature radio-like device (a transponder). Together, 
these electronic devices provide "instant" access to gasoline 
by automatically charging fuel purchases to the credit card you've 
selected. The technology is similar to the state-of-the-art 
technology successfully used by many tollways.

What happens if my Speedpass is lost, stolen or damaged?

Treat it just like a credit card. Immediately notify our Service Center at 
1-800-459-2266. Tell us your name or Speedpass number. And we'll cancel your 
old Speedpass and send you a new one right away. You should write down your 
Speedpass number (8 digits on tag) and keep it in a safe place.

Is there a pin code with my Mobil Speedpass?

No.

Can other people intercept the transmission of my credit card number?

No. The Speedpass system operates on a dedicated transponder 
identification code. Your credit card code remains outside the Speedpass 
signal system, maintaining the confidentiality of that information and 
protecting your account from unauthorized use.

---end quote---

I see several options, none seem too secure:

1) "dedicated transponder identification code" (dtic from now on) is
    sent in the clear. Anyone who can listen and re-transmit
    can get free gas.
2) Speedpass and the gas pump negotiate DH key exchange
    and use DES/RC5/IDEA/Whatever. Anyone who can
    impersonate a gas pump can gain access to dtics and
    get free gas.
2) Gas pumps have an RSA keypair, and all of the speedpasses
    know the public key. The dtic is encrypted to the 
    gas pump's key along with some random data. Anyone
    who can compromise the gas pump's private key
    (including service station operators/employees?)
    can imitate a gas pump and get dtics, with which to
    get free gas.

The third option seems pretty secure at first, until you
realize that it's like putting all of your eggs in one basket
and giving thousands of people physical access to the basket.

Anybody know how they are actualy doing it? Is there
some more secure way I haven't thought of?

-Some anonymous guy with no 'nym






From rfiero at pophost.com  Sun Nov  9 21:57:38 1997
From: rfiero at pophost.com (Richard Fiero)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:38 +0800
Subject: Kill -9.9
In-Reply-To: <199711092157.WAA14309@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711100336.UAA15157@pophost.com>



Anonymous wrote:
> .
> .
>The government is using Anti-Trust actions to muscle both computer
>giants.
>A million dollar a day assault on MicroSoft . . .
>
>KillMonger 

Yeah, for a company of $7 million per day profit it oughta be $7 + $1 = $8
million per day.
-- Richard Fiero






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov  9 21:57:51 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:51 +0800
Subject: pentium bug/microprocessor design
In-Reply-To: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971109191311.00696508@popd.netcruiser>

At 06:00 PM 11/9/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>there are new schemes in the
>works by which Intel etc. are trying to deal with this,
>including a remarkable scheme in which new microcode
>can be downloaded to the chip. it also involves encryption
>in which one needs to know the encryption mechanism for
>the chip to accept the new instructions. apparently it's
>done in such a way that no one except those who know the
>encryption can successfully alter the chip.

Of course, this means that your least favorite TLA can introduce whatever
"features" they desire on your machine if they can install a Trojan horse
or virus on it...any security through obscurity scheme should be assumed to
be known by the government.



Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
-------------- next part --------------
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From vznuri at netcom.com  Sun Nov  9 21:57:56 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:56 +0800
Subject: pentium bug/microprocessor design
In-Reply-To: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711100200.SAA08396@netcom9.netcom.com>



I've been having a brief discussion with someone on this list about
the pentium flaws. for those of you who don't know,
there's actually a minor crisis brewing in
chip design. Intel probably tests their chips 
more rigorously than just about anybody. 

the crisis is
that because of the enormous increasing complexity of
individual chips, it's becoming statistically impossible
to completely test them. that is, as much as people want
to curse Intel for their bugs, it's actually the case
that they've been ahead of the curve as much as possible
in testing. 

there are new schemes in the
works by which Intel etc. are trying to deal with this,
including a remarkable scheme in which new microcode
can be downloaded to the chip. it also involves encryption
in which one needs to know the encryption mechanism for
the chip to accept the new instructions. apparently it's
done in such a way that no one except those who know the
encryption can successfully alter the chip.

but this does raise a lot of cypherpunk issues such as
about reverse engineering etc.








From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov  9 22:13:40 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:13:40 +0800
Subject: Australian banks using uncracakble IDEA!
Message-ID: <312e1ae944182fdff692ebfb31299567@anon.efga.org>





                     Conflicting agendas cloud
                     accord on internet trading

                            By John Davidson 

http://www.afr.com.au/content/971110/inform/inform3.html

Banks will lose their shirts; retailers will go bust if the import tax
threshold isn't lowered; retailers will go bust if the threshold isn't
raised; individuals will be monitored by a person or persons
unknown; the Tax Office will kill it first, or maybe it won't. 

These are just some of the often strange and always contradictory
claims heard by the Joint Parliamentary Committee of Public
Accounts during the Sydney leg of its inquiry into internet commerce
last week. 
[...]
One expert witness, who said he had been involved in the
establishment of the internet more than 20 years ago, testified that
internet commerce should be banned because the speed and
security of the network had barely improved in the last decade. 

Modem speeds, said Richard Marschall from Marschall Acoustics,
were still limited to 9600bps (contrary to the claims of ISPs and
modem makers, which offer speeds of around 50kbps) and using the
internet was still grossly inefficient compared to putting a disk in
the post. 

Worse, 90 per cent of all internet bandwidth was used to (slowly,
one presumes) download pornography. 

Claims that the internet could be used for serious business were
also grossly inflated, he said. 

Dr Marschall said that any banks that chose to use the internet for
commerce would "lose their shirts" because the security of the
internet was so poor. 

The cryptography relied on by banks to scramble data on the public
network could readily be cracked, he said, because law enforcement
agencies refused to let people use strong versions of the software
for fear of it falling into the hands of criminals. 

(Those Australian banks that offer Web banking sites do, in fact,
use a strong form of cryptography known as IDEA, which is thought
to be effectively uncrackable.) 

"The internet (is) an ideal media (sic) for fraud and other unethical
practices," he said in his submission. 

"It is not clear if there is any fix for these problems -- short of
pulling the plug and banning internet commerce. Commercial
transactions were banned for the first 15 years of the internet's
existence for precisely these reasons." 






From Cindy at mcglashan.com  Mon Nov 10 15:46:29 1997
From: Cindy at mcglashan.com (Cindy Cohn)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:46:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Appellee's Brief filed; Government granted extension
Message-ID: <199711102323.PAA22238@gw.quake.net>


Hi all,

The Brief for the Appellee Bernstein was filed today in the 9th Circuit
Court of Appeals.  It should be posted at the Electronic Frontier Foundation
site (www.eff.org) soon.

In addition to the Appellee's Brief, five amicus briefs were filed today in
support of the Appellee. 

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy at McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sun Nov  9 23:57:12 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:57:12 +0800
Subject: Crypto smartcard demo at the monthly meeting
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971110085905.17153C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



It seems that everybody had fun watching my smartcard demo at this month's
Cypherpunks meeting. It certainly generated a lot of interest in this, to
many US programmers still novel, technology.

I sincerely hope that the attendees walked away with more than the
realization, as you saw in my demonstration, that a 16 bit keyspace is not
cryptographically secure. :-)

On behalf of the Cypherpunks Smartcard Developer Association, I would like
to again issue a call for smartcards and smartcard Programmer Reference
Manuals. Without both, it will be difficult to move our research forward
in a timely fashion. If you have access to either, especially to those
made by Siemens or Bull, please contact me. Anonymous donations are
encouraged.

We also need inverse readers and serial port sniffers that do not affect
the traffic on the serial port. Pointers to commercial sources are
welcome. Schematics or better yet donations are preferred.

Furthermore, I would like everybody interested in obtaining one of the
universal smartcard readers used in the demo to contact me. Given enough
interest, I volunteer to coordinate another production run.

Thanks,



-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov 10 00:51:32 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:51:32 +0800
Subject: To: Amad3us Re: Your keys
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0810793884b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971109155117.006f1050@popd.ix.netcom.com>



I tried adding Amad3us's key to my PGP5.0 keyring,
and got a dialog box saying
	PGP failed to add the key(s) to your keyring

Is this really you correct key?  What are your
KeyID, fingerprint, and a keyserver that has your key?

	Thanks;  Bill

At 08:25 PM 11/01/1997 +0100, An Anonymous Poster wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
.....
>Amad3us
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>iQCVAwUBNFt6ffKMuKFNFivhAQHagwP8DiNphzTEBFIxjMfuk0GMoTaSwY4Etjyb
>Q234GnFkf5iqWgRsDnNJWeiQzfli9EV+/5xA/eY80N+AQxbln6eFwkG8U9btMoqS
>Y7NCNwU6tDSckAOSSPOtdikZBxrNclW7ZK0ueuuHvFZGx5ciWCUBbx6bcxzphmhl
>bWPRWC/asbc=
>=I0Qy
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
>4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
>ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
>tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0Pg==
>=6dKS
>-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From pageu at MCI.Com  Mon Nov 10 17:56:35 1997
From: pageu at MCI.Com (Streamline International)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Interested in Health, Wealth, & Early Retirement?!
Message-ID: <199706033080AAA55426@3453336985BCCD24345.196.90.246>



  This is a one time mailing and you will not need to respond to be REMOVED!

  ***************************************************************************************           
AOL                                                                                 Mon300K-Set50
               

Hello,

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                 Invest in this and improve your way of life drastically - FOR REAL!!!!                                                   

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than a few hundred dollars to finally be successful.  This allows most families to no longer 
have to rely on the income of one job and one boss!

Our powerful recruiting system offers you these benefits:

    1.  Distributors placed in your downline at no cost to you
    2.  Completely AUTOMATED SPONSORING SYSTEM
    3.  Only one customer needed - yourself
    4.  A 100% committed downline
    5.  Commission check increases every month
    6.  Most lucrative pay plan in the industry
    7.  Earn thousands in the first few months
    8.  Active upline support
    9.  National toll free sponsoring line
   10.  Free Self-replicating Webpage and autoresponders

This is without a doubt the most aggressive MLM company on or off the Internet.  
Last week,  a famous TV Infomercial self made millionaire joined our company.
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                   *********************************************************************
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                JUST GO TO MY WEB SITE AND REGISTER FOR IT AT NO COST
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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 10 02:14:39 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:14:39 +0800
Subject: To: Amad3us Re: Your keys
Message-ID: <199711101006.LAA13945@basement.replay.com>



Bill Stewart wrote:
> I tried adding Amad3us's key to my PGP5.0 keyring,
> and got a dialog box saying
>         PGP failed to add the key(s) to your keyring
> 
> Is this really you correct key?  What are your
> KeyID, fingerprint, and a keyserver that has your key?

Bill,

Try this one:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0PokAVQMFEDRm9noK
WjOVYcdHsQEBQAUB+QGswIJE3x2VPRwM6e7RdJdIvXeHa7pgZpDVEIetctxpTi2F
nj45S0V4oHqUNJvmYYeApxC2hkEjn9Ia/EFglF4=
=ossQ
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Signing Key:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQBNAzRmZWoAAAECAMnJrqd/TERCLeFscdgNvwVxrVG4tRm0VThMEXXkctCGMaUD
jcETxcV0ZseRUcyUKfqlLd3CRsIwClozlWHHR7EABRG0FU5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IEtu
b3R0LCBNRQ==
=eg16
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From cci at dev.null  Mon Nov 10 02:32:20 1997
From: cci at dev.null (Crypto Czar International)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:32:20 +0800
Subject: Words To Live By...
In-Reply-To: <199711100815.AAA19950@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <3466DE7A.6648@dev.null>



=========================================================
  Q. What's the motto of the "Man-Will-Never-Fly Society"?
  A. "Birds Fly, Men Drink."
 =========================================================
 
 LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
 http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm






From csm70830 at port.ac.uk  Mon Nov 10 05:07:16 1997
From: csm70830 at port.ac.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:07:16 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <10492831721@os05.iso.port.ac.uk>




> >This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
> >average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
> >Demand a new CPU from Intel.
> 
> This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?

No way, this P200 croaked instantly the code was run, in the wrong 
hands this has serious network takedown potential.


--                  
                            Paul Bradley 
                      paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
       "Why should anyone want to live on rails?" - Stephen Fry






From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Nov 10 05:36:44 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:36:44 +0800
Subject: Crypto Statements
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971110133229.00719e1c@pop.pipeline.com>



In November 8 Congressional Record:

Rep. DeLay calls for a new encryption policy:

   http://jya.com/delay-crypto.txt  (12K)

Sen. Murray supports US encryption exports:

   http://jya.com/murray-crypto.txt  (6K)

Sen. Abraham asks that high technology and encryption be freed 
from Washington interference:

   http://jya.com/abra-crypto.txt  (13K)






From 94M10P920IMS at aol.com  Mon Nov 10 22:08:20 1997
From: 94M10P920IMS at aol.com (94M10P920IMS at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:08:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: We Do All The Work And You Collect All The Cash
Message-ID: <7492304188567@inet.com>


If you're NOT currently looking for an income opportunity, then just 
delete this message.

If you ARE looking for an income opportunity, then...

WELCOME TO THE HOTTEST CASH GENERATING PROGRAM ON THE INTERNET!

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was probably doomed from the start, for 3 simple reasons.
	
	1) You needed to dedicate a lot more time and effort into 
	   the marketing of your program, than you originally planned.
	2) You needed to invest a lot more money into the marketing of 
           your program, than you originally expected.
	3) Your success depended solely on you. And, unless you're 
	   a marketing expert, your expected level of success just 
	   wasn't going to be achieved.  

Well, that's where our expertise comes in. We here at Internet Marketing 
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Mailing #2:       250,000 People
Mailing #3:       250,000 People
FOR A TOTAL OF:   750,000 People

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#1:            
Dr. J.A. Johnson
400 W 76th Ste#108
Anchorage, AK 99518

#2:
Patrick Rothbauer
5217 Northview Dr.
Wichita Falls, TX 76306

#3:
Business Success  ***PLEASE NOTE***
PO Box 273           
Doring               PUT ON 2- 32cent stamps
Surrey
RH5 5YN
ENGLAND, UK

STEP 2: Send $35.00, along with your name and address as you want it to 
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Internet Marketing Sevices
2375 E.Tropicana #135
Las Vegas, NV 89119
 		 
Please note, Internet Marketing Services does not participate in your 
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1%      Response @  7,500 X $5.00 = $37,500
1/2%    Response @  3,750 X $5.00 = $18,750
1/4%    Response @  1,875 X $5.00 = $ 9,375
1/8%    Response @    938 X $5.00 = $ 4,690

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Just go to www.freeyellow.com and follow the prompts.







From jba at 07979.com  Mon Nov 10 22:59:11 1997
From: jba at 07979.com (jba at 07979.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:59:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Do you want to have thousands $$$$ for Christmas???
Message-ID: <199702170025.GBA531042@xptdc.com>



Hello!

My name is John Alencar; I'm a 25-year-old, I have a little business and I never read junk mail, but after receiving for so many times this one I decided to read it. 

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The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                          This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
         PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

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    -  Raise capital to start their own business
    -  Pay off debts
    -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

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             ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
              ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
             ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

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  * $5.00 cash
  * The name and number of the report they are ordering
  * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!  The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business anywhere! 

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND BE PREPARED TO REAP THE AGGERING BENEFITS!

******* I N S T R U C T I O N S *******

This is what you MUST do:
1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

     *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report.
  
     *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them.

     *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits.  Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember that this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

    a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

    b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this advertisement and remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50 grand!

    c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.  

    d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

    e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

    f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter.
  
4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another avenue, which you could use for advertising, is an e-mail list. You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------
***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
Notes:
-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
-  Make sure wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper conceals the cash  
 - On one of those sheets of paper, include (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an assumed "company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to millions of people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.

REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  

                JBBA Enterprises, Inc.
	2818 Turnberry Dr. # 421
                Arlington, TX  76006-2329

REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

	TAMARA'S
	1550/F3 McMullen Booth Road
	Suite 224
	Clearwater, FL 34619


REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

	Netwares
	P.O. Box 309
	Vestal, NY 13851-0309

REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

	Information Services (D.B.)
	11006 4th Street North
	Box 160, Dept. A	
                St. Petersburg, FL 33716

         --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
         --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5				$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)		$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)		$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)	$50,000
                                           THIS TOTALS------------	$55,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE!

 *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately.

 *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:

    When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Reg. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

 *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business!

 *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

     This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
          Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

     My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM.
           Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

    The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
           Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

    Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
         Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

     This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
           Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET 
STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

It really works, I already made two trips with the extra income, and I can make sure that you will do the same�.

Good look for you, the only thing you need to do is to get your reports and start receiving $5 bills in your mail box.

John Alencar..






From raph at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu  Mon Nov 10 07:03:58 1997
From: raph at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:03:58 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199711101450.GAA02742@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias at alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster at remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer at replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer at cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config at nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix at squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config at weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman at cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer at anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config at anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer at bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer at neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa at weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain at notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config at anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer at replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer at neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 10 07:04:19 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:04:19 +0800
Subject: Festivity Levels
Message-ID: <199711101449.PAA14559@basement.replay.com>



       Festivity Level 1: Your guests are chatting amiably with each
other, admiring your Christmas-tree ornaments, singing carols around
the upright piano, sipping at their drinks and nibbling hors d'oeuvres.

        Festivity Level 2: Your guests are talking loudly -- sometimes
to each other, and sometimes to nobody at all, rearranging your
Christmas-tree ornaments, singing "I Gotta Be Me" around the upright
piano, gulping their drinks and wolfing down hors d'oeuvres.

        Festivity Level 3: Your guests are arguing violently with
inanimate objects, singing "I can't get no satisfaction," gulping down
other peoples' drinks, wolfing down Christmas tree ornaments and
placing hors d'oeuvres in the upright piano to see what happens when
the little hammers strike.

        Festivity Level 4: Your guests, hors d'oeuvres smeared all over
their naked bodies are performing a ritual dance around the burning
Christmas tree.  The piano is missing.

        You want to keep your party somewhere around level 3, unless
you rent your home and own Firearms, in which case you can go to level
4.  The best way to get to level 3 is egg-nog.
----------------------------------------------------------------
this is Fyodor's mailing list. to Subscribe/unsubscribe complain send
message to fygrave at ro0ted.amalker.com.kg
--------------------------------------------------------------------

 Old timer, n.:
        One who remembers when charity was a virtue and not an
organization.






From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 10 07:27:44 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:27:44 +0800
Subject: Judge's First InterNet Decision!!!
Message-ID: <34672513.770@dev.null>



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

A SIMPLE CHEMICAL CAN KEEP YOU ERECT!!!

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     The researchers found a shortage of this chemical would keep a 
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   THE ANSWER TO A MAN'S MOST IMPORTANT PROBLEM IS HERE.





                      UNCONDITIONAL GUARANTEE
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days for a full refund of your purchase price.

















To Order FORMULA 41, please mail to:
     Order Dept.
     PO Box 1242
     Snellville, Ga 30278-1242

Enclosed is my check or money order for $__________, Payable to NCS.

Name__________________________________________________
Address_______________________________________________
City, State Zip_______________________________________



Description                     Price           How Many
Two Month Supply                $54.95      ________ 

Three Month Supply      $69.95      ________

One Month Supply                $34.95      ________ 

                                                Sub Total
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$5.00
Srfsm                                     
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______






From harka at nycmetro.com  Mon Nov 10 08:35:49 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:35:49 +0800
Subject: Sloppy Chips from Int
Message-ID: <199711101615.KAA05208@einstein.ssz.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:emc at wire.insync.net to Harka <=-

 In> By now everyone has probably heard that Intel Pentium and
 In> Pentium MMX chips hang when executing the instruction sequence
 In> F00FC7C8 even when in an outer ring of privilege or in V86
 In> mode.

<snip>

 In> Unlike Unix, for which complete compilable source code is
 In> available, we know little about what what microcode is run
 In> through the several million transistors on a typical
 In> microprocessor. If sloppy engineering alone produces such
 In> dangerous faults, imagine what could happen should industry
 In> decide to deliberately cooperate with various LEAs and TLAs.
 In> (In the national interest, of course.)

 In> The possiblities are truly mind-boggling.  Perhaps exploits
 In> like tapping Aldrich Ames' PC and crashing Saddam Husseins'
 In> PCs en masse were not done by black bag jobs and viri, but by
 In> the activation of "National Security" backdoors present in all
 In> complex modern microprocessors.


This somewhat overlaps with another emerging possibility I've been
thinking about since the beginning of the DES and RC5-search.

While I am very supportive of the general idea of distributing any
such computationally intensive applications onto the many CPU's
available today, it also opens the door to another potential
horror: distributed horror.

The concept of "The Internet one big Supercomputer" makes sense,
but if _we_ can do it so can _they_! And herein lies the immense
potential danger of undisclosed source-code.

Who can guarantee, that Windows 3.1/95/NT/whatever and any other OS
and Applications with no open source won't employ a client
similar to RC5 of it's own...secretly running in the background
doing it's Big Brother work? The same might apply to the CPU's
themselves, or a combination thereof.

Especially Windows-users are by now more than sufficiently
conditioned to see installing regular "bug-fixes" disguised as
"service-packs" as a normal part of their "work". It would be
fairly easy to send along an application, that does something very
differently than merely fixing bugs...and since nobody can ever
verify the source-code independently from MS (or Intel etc.),
chances are, that it would remain undetected for the general public
for a long time.
The application could even be remotely triggered to cease working
or be deleted by the next "service-pack" to ensure sneakiness.

People might remember the Windows95 Registration-Wizard, which
apparently collected data about programs found on the hard drive
etc. and sent it along to Microsoft to be analyzed by them.
Since things have become that easy, it'd probably be trivial from a
technical perspective to send along secring.pgp, maybe even the
captured passphrase. Now that the average PC is connected to the Net
quite frequently if not constantly, it could do such things in the
background while the user is waiting for his "web page to download".

There's almost no way of telling if the system is closed off from
the user, such as Windows is.
First, there's no source-code. Nobody knows, what the (by now)
probably millions of lines of code actually do other than what's
visible.
Second, "looking under the hood" seems to become more and more
discouraged by the overall design and to actually know what your
system is doing at any time is now almost impossible with
Windows95/NT...at least outside the regular user-space.

Point 1 and 2 combined create a totally non-transparent system,
that could potentially be used for many (undetectable)
horror-"applications" such as mentioned before...

CPU's upgradable via software (Flash-ROM), modems etc. add to the
problem.

"Mind-boggling" indeed...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... "Every CPU you have can be used against you"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBNGcxhjltEBIEF0MBAQFnrQf+P1+6ZzdcJ2tKF//v2zu1z0d9b7fHqEW1
zX6U7d2SUqpuHcX3YSRGyd3fR5XPnxGj91iTA2pYnSr76Fcx06k+MfFpgpo1RxYn
Jnx4oBeeUyO5t2peR/CBb+2gJ54OMwv7azxpKZ1/F+GVWhzXR2KZjnWZ7vArK6kY
wcehcR/4QeJa1OxMVXWBYRPyUz8TLfAS5GPnOJrqYSf/HzgwrWWlJ2USzS5/uRwA
OcvI/w1fOsRKxvN6gKNeO2tZLqv2U/+AmCBCuCwos86yjXZTlpU0u2xhnxnIcJjR
T3EIAk3oSXvBBmK5QET//bRllD1JjttUMdRrCGwWunO/1PNRiFzTQw==
=HycV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From declan at well.com  Mon Nov 10 09:06:41 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:06:41 +0800
Subject: President's critical infrastructure commission and crypto
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971110084954.27719C-100000@well.com>





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 20:36:10 -0500
From: Kawika Daguio <KDAGUIO at aba.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu, declan at well.com
Subject: FC: President's critical infrastructure commission and crypto -Reply

I worked with the PCCIP and the National Security Telecommunications Advisory Council on their recent infrastructure assurance reports.  The financial sector received high marks and won praise from both groups.
We shared more information about ourselves and our systems than anyone other than the regulators have ever seen.  The investigators were impressed, as would you be if you were to see the unreleased parts of the report.    I expect, however, that much of the report will never be released.

Some of the information we shared included pictures, and physical locations (addresses, floor diagrams), and network diagrams 
identifying payment system and other financial sector traffic and infrastructure.  These kinds of data were shared only because of the protective terms of the information sharing understandings.  This information will not be made public as long as it remains sensitive.  Other information about the specific security infrastructures or the typical security infrastructures employed by banks and the ways we prevent, detect, contain, and pursue compromises is also sensitive.

I would hope that those seeking information about the unreleased portions of the report recognize our interest in protecting sensitive information.

******
my opinion
my employer's may differ
******
kawika daguio







From declan at well.com  Mon Nov 10 10:02:51 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:02:51 +0800
Subject: Profile of a Spammer, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007801b08cf87d482b@[168.161.105.141]>



**********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1569,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
November 10, 1997

Profile of a Spammer
by Robin Miller

       Whatever you do, don't call Kevin Jones a spammer. "Spammers are
   people who send all kinds of e-mail to everyone. I don't do that.
   Don't lump me with the spammers," he insists. "I send out nothing but
   targeted e-mail. It's not the same thing."

        But since Kevin's "targeting" has all the precision and subtlety
   of a sawed-off shotgun, chances are you've been spending your time
   deleting his spam. Since Kevin entered what he calls the "Internet
   promotion" business in January 1997, he's fired off more than 25
   million pieces of "targeted e-mail" on behalf of everything from
   credit repair kits to surplus merchandise. Every month he hones his
   software, attracts new clients -- and, most importantly, adds more
   unsuspecting users to his mailing lists. With a little luck, he'll
   send out up to 100 million pieces of e-mail next year. And since he
   gets paid by the piece, just like companies that handle direct postal
   mail promotions, the more e-mail Kevin sends out, the happier he is.

[...]

     Software is the second key to success in Internet direct
   marketing. Kevin's favorite program is NewsBlaster. It's probably the
   most popular spamware on the market today, and Kevin is one of its
   most devout adherents. NewsBlaster lets him extract up to 15,000
   e-mail addresses an hour from targeted newsgroups -- and automatically
   delete addresses with .edu, .gov and .org top-level domains (which
   tend to be more hostile to bulk e-mail than .net or .com). Kevin also
   prefers to bypass AOL members "because AOL sues guys like me a lot,"
   so he has NewsBlaster delete AOL members from his lists, and also
   removes e-mail addresses with more than 30 characters "because they
   upload so slow, and in this business speed is everything."

[...]

       But despite these precautions, Kevin and his clients still get
   their share of flames. "I figure on maybe 500 every time I send out
   e-mail," he says, "and I still have trouble figuring out why people do
   that. I'm a little guy trying to make a living on the Internet,
   helping other little guys make a few bucks. I'm not out stealing, I'm
   not hurting anyone... People who don't like getting e-mail are just
   making life hard for small guys to make a buck, that's all they're
   doing."

###







From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 10 11:45:03 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 03:45:03 +0800
Subject: New WorldCom Order
Message-ID: <346760D2.6352@dev.null>



http://www.msnbc.com/news/122668.asp

Re: WorldCom-MCI Merger

Internet access rates? It might raise them.
Indirectly, it could increase the cost of doing business for 
Internet Access Providers, or ISPs. WorldCom would now own a 
large part of the Internet backbone. All ISPs pay fees to 
connect to the backbone. Sprint would be rates for ISPs, 
which would be passed along to Internet consumers. 


Sidenote: To those kind and not-so-kind souls who took the time
  to inform me that my WorldCom prediction was ludicrous, because
  of the fact that MCI already had a done-deal in the bag with
  British TeleCom...
  Tthhhppptttoooee!

TthhhppptttoooeeMonger






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Mon Nov 10 12:24:59 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 04:24:59 +0800
Subject: [URGENT] ZKP
In-Reply-To: <7052fc4fb6f7b91316495c4daba58576@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971110130522.30618C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>



On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C. Maypole, a product of anal birth, appeared with a coathanger 
> through his head.
> 
>          (_) _____ (_)
>             /O   O\   Tim C. Maypole
>            !   I   !
>            ! \___/ !
>             \_____/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 10 13:11:06 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:11:06 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <v03102800b08d18c99cbf@[207.167.93.63]>




Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.

And people wonder why the militia movement is gaining strength every day.

The au pair Louise Woodward will serve less time in jail than Jim Bell
will. While Bell languishes in a Washington state jail, awaiting (for
almost 7 months!!) his sentence, the convicted babykiller is now free.

I guess having a couple of fake SS tattoos, er, "numbers," and possibly
opening a vial of mercaptin where some people would smell it, is a more
serious crime than shaking a baby to death.

Only in Amerika.

Lock and load.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 10 13:18:33 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:18:33 +0800
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199711102055.VAA28518@basement.replay.com>




test. after two inexplicable lost messages via replay.com--this test message.

anon






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 10 13:22:04 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:22:04 +0800
Subject: Gun Control brings on a New Arms Race
In-Reply-To: <199711090544.GAA04712@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b08c532f2fec@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:44 PM -0700 11/8/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  After the government has finished arming park rangers, as well as all
>federal daycare workers and filing clerks, I suppose they will begin
>giving
>surplus military weapons to USENET censors, and the like, and deputizing
>them so that they can legally enforce their own narrow views.


The arms race is on. The Feds are arming themselves, and the citizen-units
are doing likewise.

At the San Francisco Gun Show this past weekend, I watched with great
amusement as the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office deputies and Brisbane
Police stared in apparent horror as citizen-units loaded up on
high-capacity mags, armor-piercing ammo, Class III body armor, and on and
on. The cops are stationed at the door, ostensibly to spot gross violations
of the law, such as carry of loaded weapons. The cops asked me if I was
carrying guns into the show to sell...I just shrugged. Without a warrant,
they were helpless to do more than just ask. It was a gas.

(A friend of a friend scored a "cold" Glock 17L...$400 in "NQA" condition,
immediate delivery.)

Billy Boy Gates was a hit of the show. Because of his support of Washington
State "676" bill, t-shirts with his face in the crosshairs.

(Me, I think he' just a misguided billionaire with the usual Kennedyesque
guilt feelings that cause him to want to "do something." I wish him no
particular harm. But some of the guys I talked to said he ought to be taken
out with a .308 "unmaskable interrupt." This as they were looking over a
heavy barrel Remington Sendero in 300 Winchester Magnum. Just the thing for
reaching out and touching someone. A bit extreme, but the gun shows bring
out the honesty in people.)

All I bought were some lasers, some .223 vest-piercers, and a few special
parts for my Colt HBAR. Oh, and I took delivery on a so-called "assault
pistol"--30 rounds of .223 rifle ammunition in a package that fits under an
overcoat. I'll be ready for the November Raids.

Like I said, the cops appeared chagrinned. I think they realize the
anti-gun efforts have backfired, causing citizen-units to arms themselves
as never before. As fast as the Congressvermin can pass laws, loopholes
appear.

I used to go to gun shows a lot, back in the 70s and 80s, and I can tell
you that the efforts by Klinton and Swinestein and the American Jewish
Congress and all the other vermin are only having the effect of causing our
kind of people to arm themselves to the teeth. There are probably more
30-round assault rifle mags available now that at the height of the Viet
Nam war.


30-round Glock mags, 15-round HK USP mags, and literally thousands of
high-capacity AR-15, AK-47, and SKS mags were readily available.

A friend of mine scored at least 15 Glock mags, a dozen AR-15 mags, and a
set of four AK-47 mags. (Even I have to admit he's gone overboard...how can
he ever use the dozen or so assault rifles and submachine guns he owns?
Many of them "cold.")

Why can't the gun grabbers realize that Americans will not give up their
guns, and that every wave of efforts to try to grab them just stimulates
the market even more?

Interesting times. The rumored November raids could be very interesting.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From unicorn at schloss.li  Mon Nov 10 13:33:43 1997
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:33:43 +0800
Subject: Money Laundering Nonsense.
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971110150609.006e31f4@schloss.li>




Note- cypherpunks: reply by mail, I'm not on the list any longer.

Chicago Tribune
Monday, November 10, 1997

Money Laundering law netting more small fry.
Prosecutors putting new tool to work.

A sentencing weapon Congress intended for use against drug lords is being
wielded against other defendants.  Judges and others say this has
diminished legal fairness.

By Jan Crawford Greenburg
Washington Bureau

Washington-  Jose Caba considered himself a hardworking, law-abiding man,
and immigrant who built a business selling groceries in a poor Brooklyn
neighborhood.

But when he started illegally redeeming food stamps and depositing the
proceeds into a bank account, prosecutors thought otherwise.  They accused
him of money laundering and sought a harsh sentence.

Caba, who thought he was only bending administrative rules, isn't the kind
of criminal Congress had in mind when it decided to give prosecutors a
weapon to bring down powerful drug lords.  Nevertheless, he is one of a
growing number of defendants who commit routine fraud and find themselves
facing big-time charges of money laundering.

[...]

More and more prosecutors are invoking [money laundering statutes] in
simple fraud, bribery and embezzlement cases, a trend that doesn't sit well
with many federal judges or the U.S. Sentencing Commission.

In a strongly worded report, the commission... is recommending that the
sentences for money laundering be reworked.  The penalties are unfair, the
commission said, because they often vastly exceed the seriousness of the
crime.

Caba would have faced 2 to 2 1/2 years in prison for food stamp fraud, but
because he deposited the funds in a bank- thereby meeting the definition of
laundering the money- he was looking at 10 to 12 years.

[...]

Nationally, statistics show a marked increase in money laundering cases.
In 1995 prosecutors charged 1700 people with money laundering, up from 250
in 1990.  More than half of the defendants charged in 1995 were involved in
non-drug related crimes.

Critics say the charged is used even more than the figures show because
prosecutors threaten defendants with the charge to get them to plead guilty
to the underlying crime.

"It has tremendous implications in the criminal justice system because
prosecutors can use it as a tremendous bargaining stick..." said Gordon
Greenberg, a defense attorney and an expert on money laundering.  "Every
single crime, theoretically, can be converted into money laundering because
the statute is that broad."

What's more, prosecutors in some areas routinely file the charge, while
others decline to do so.  As a result, "proportionality is lost and
appropriate uniformity is lost," said Jonathan Wroblewski, director of
legislative and public affairs for the sentencing commission.

[] stiff sentences also apply to defendants who make no attempt to cover up
their proceeds.  Caba laundered money by depositing it into a bank, even
though his deposits were by check and he paid taxes on his proceeds.

"For all intents and purposes, if you use your ill-gotten gains, it's money
laundering." said Alan Chaset, a lawyer who chairs the American Bar
Association's committee on sentencing guidelines.  "If you take money and
put it in a bank and then withdraw it and buy a stick of gum, it's money
laundering."

Some judges refuse to impose the sentence in cases where there was no
elaborate scheme to conceal the money, such as a 1994 case in which
prosecutors charged a defendant with money laundering when he put cash from
drug sales into a shoe box. [...]








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 10 15:00:27 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:00:27 +0800
Subject: Gun Control brings on a new arms race
Message-ID: <199711102250.XAA13694@basement.replay.com>





Tim May wrote:
At the San Francisco Gun Show this past weekend, I watched with great
amusement as the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office deputies and Brisbane
Police stared in apparent horror as citizen-units loaded up on
high-capacity mags, armor-piercing ammo, Class III body armor, and on and
on. The cops are stationed at the door, ostensibly to spot gross violations
of the law, such as carry of loaded weapons. The cops asked me if I was
carrying guns into the show to sell...I just shrugged. Without a warrant,
they were helpless to do more than just ask. It was a gas.


Gee, sounds like Christmas. Christmas starts earlier every year.

Sparticus
       






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 10 15:32:02 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:32:02 +0800
Subject: State of the Nation [-]
Message-ID: <199711102317.AAA18283@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- -----BEGIN TERRORIST PLAINTEXT MUNITION MESSAGE-----
Version: 6.66
			State of the Nation
			by Jo Min Ivan

See Johnny run.
See Spot run.
See Spot the friendly wolf-hybrid bite Johnny in the ass.

Johnny can't read.
Johnny Kant spel too good neither.
Johnny is graded on a curve.
See Johnny get an 'A' on his next test.

Johnny works for minimum wage at Wall-Dart.
Most of Johnny's customers use their credit cards to go into even more debt.
See Johnny give incorrect change when someone payz with cash.
Johnny Kant Kount.

Read Johnny's employer's policy of giving discounts to debit card customers.
See the airport security body scanner at the front door of the store.
See the security camera in the dressing rooms.
Johnny feels very very safe.

Johnny feels goatees are cool.
Johnny feels that Trent and Kurdt are GOD.
Johnny is sooooo alternative.

Johnny has an AOL account.
Johnny feels nipple rings are passe.
Johnny wants to pierce his tooth with a power drill.

Johnny attends public school.
Johnny feels good about himself.
Johnny wants to work for the government when he growz up.
Johnny hearz it ain't too hard to get a job with guvmint.

Johnny is functionally illiterate, apathetic, and proud of it.
Johnny doesn't know the Bill of Rights from a Bill of Goods.
Johnny's teacher works for the government.
Johnny's teacher votes for higher taxes.
Johnny's teacher thinks the Declaration of Independence 
	is really an Entitlement to Dependence.

Hear Johnny's teacher complain about pornographers during her cigarette
	break.
See Johnny point his browser in the library to 
	WWW.BARELY14_CYBERSLUT_LUST.NL.CUM
Johnny kant unnerstan what he reedz.
Johnny knowz what consolez are.
Johnny knows how to get around NetGranny.

See Johnny's teacher's Ben-Her balls fall out of her purse in the cafeteria.
See Johnny's classmate put a fresh tape in the hidden video camera in his 
	teacher's bedroom. 
Johnny's teacher is dropping her kids off at soccer practice.
Johnny's teacher puts naughty things into her mouth when her children are at 
	soccer practice.

See Johnny's coins fall out of his pocket when he hops into the minivan.
Johnny feels carrying cash and coins is a nuisance.
Johnny doesn't know $1,000 Federal Reserve Notes were ever printed.
See Johnny carry a dozen credit cards in his pocket.
Johnny doesn't know FRN's were ever backed with anything other than empty
	promises and more debt.
See Johnny's digitized picture on his SmartCard.
Johnny doesn't know guvmint's promise to redeem FRN's with lawful money
	was nothing more than an empty lie.

Johnny feels only drug dealers carry $100 bills.
By Johnny's logic all of his ancestors were drug dealers.
All of his ancestors should be dug up and thrown in jail where they 
	belong; laws should be applied retroactively, don't you know.
Johnny has never bought a rifle with a 1000 Franc note.
Johnny has never bought a rifle.
Johnny has never seen a silver dollar.

See the ill-tempered bureaucrat at DMV take Johnny's fingerprints.
See Johnny get his retina scanned.
See Johnny apply for his Interstate Access TollCard.
See Johnny's complete life history updated on his SmartCard.
See the convicted pedophile on the state payroll enter Johnny's vital 
	statistics into the DMV database.
See the pedophile cross-reference several hundred guvmint and private sector
	databases to confirm that Johnny is not an illegal alien.
The pedophile is glad, he prefers little white boys to molest when he gets 
	out of jail again for the 3rd time.
Johnny just got his first drivers license.
Johnny is very very happy.

See Johnny crash the family minivan into a tree.
See Johnny's bong tip over.
See Johnny harm the environment. See Johnny contribute to deforestation.
See Johnny traumatized; mommy says he's can't drive again for six months.
See Johnny traumatized; he can't get laid in the back of the minivan for
	six more months.

See Johnny attend a tree-sensitivity group therapy session for traumatized
	youth.
See Johnny promise to be tolerant and compassionate towards all of 
	Mother Earth's creations.
See Johnny pledge to help plug the ozone hole.
See Johnny pledge to help stop global warming.
See Johnny pray to God to please stop El Nino and world hunger.
See Johnny pledge to do his part for sustainable development.
See Johnny pledge to help fight off the coming alien invasion.

Johnny feels empowered.
Johnny feels a sense of unity with the global village.
See Johnny promise never to own an assault weapon.
See Johnny's cousin smuggle black-market CFC's across the Mexican border.

Johnny's teacher tells the class that AIDS-infected crackheads are victims
	of societal neglect.
Johnny's teacher tells the class that teenage girls who have sex with 
	AIDS-infected crackheads in exchange for drugs are victims of 
	societal neglect.
Johnny's teacher feels that lack of sufficient sex education funding is an
	ongoing national crisis.
Johnny wonders if any of the cheerleaders like to take drugs.

See Johnny's teacher hand out strawberry-flavored condoms.
See many of the students complain that they aren't banana-flavored.
See the student body president complain the school is discriminating against
	third-world tropical fruit pickers. A lawsuit is threatened.
See the feminist activist protest the discrimination against lesbians. 
	A hunger strike is threatened.
Johnny's teacher explains the school ran out of dental dams and butt plugs 
	because mean-spirited rich people voted down the tax increase.

Johnny's mommy is afraid of scary-looking black guns.
Johnny's mommy wants the government to prevent her children or anyone else 
	from being able to read	messages written by people using anonymous 
	remailers and other terrorists who own scary-looking black guns.
Johnny feels Nazis who own scary-looking black guns are bad, bad people.
Johnny knows that all people without badges and battering rams who own
	scary-looking black guns are Nazis.
Johnny knows this because expert telejournalists report based on their
	interviews of expert professional fund-raisers that all people who
	own scary-looking black guns are Nazis; so it must be true.

Johnny doesn't know the first thing about proper firearms safety.
Johnny's been taught at school to run away very very fast when he sees a 
	gun and tell a responsible adult right away so that a responsible 
	BATF agent riding in an armored personnel carrier can go 
	confiscate it.
Johnny's idea of field-stripping is taking his girlfriends' bra and panties 
	off on the soccer field.
See Johnny's uncle shoot his friend in the foot while cleaning a
	loaded handgun.

Johnny's congressman wants to pass a law to confiscate any handgun a child
	sees. Studies have shown the image of scary-looking black guns 
	alters a young innocent child's brain development forever and 
	scars them for life.
Based on this study, the editorial board of the Suburba Sun Times urges all
	owners of scary-looking black guns to turn them in in exchange for 
	twenty lottery tickets and a donation of fifty dollars made in the 
	Nazi's name to the National Public Radio pledge drive.
The Suburba Sun Times endorses the congressman's Child Handgun Viewing 
	Prevention Safety Act.
Johnny's congressman's armed security detail is issued brand new 
	scary-looking black guns.

Johnny's dad feels more prisons need to be built for evil drug dealers and 
	money launderers.
Johnny's uncle is an unemployed ex-prison guard.
Johnny's uncle owes Johnny's dad money.
Johnny's dad complains about confiscatory taxes.
Johnny's dad complains about confiscatory child support payments.
Johnny's dad's mistress complains he doesn't buy her enough jewelry.
Johnny's dad blew his paycheck on homemade hidden-camera porno videos.

Johnny hears on the news that people who smoke cigarettes, get cancer and 
	then die are victims of evil tobacco companies.
Hear Johnny's dad tell his buddies pot-smokers should be locked up for life.
See Johnny's dad guzzle beer with his buddies during the football game.
See Johnny's dad get pretty damn drunk.
See Johnny's dad drive up to the 24-7 to buy another case of Schmeister.
Johnny's dad's buddies finished the pizza that arrived before he got back.

See Johnny's dad's buddy's enormous beer-belly.
See it giggle when he walks.
See Johnny's dad's buddy call Pizza Shack to order another one for himself.
See Johnny's dad's buddy drink Diet Choke.
See Johnny's dad's buddy eat potato chips made with an FDA approved fat
	substitute.
How can you see anything with all the cigar and cigarette smoke in the room?
Listen to Johnny's dad's buddy fart up a storm.

Johnny hears the government say that money launderers are very, very bad 
	people.
Johnny feels money launderers must be almost as bad as PGP exporters and
	other terrorists he keeps hearing about.
Johnny doesn't understand what it is exactly that money launderers do, 
	but if the government and the media say it's bad, then it must be 
	very very bad.
Johnny feels it must be even worse than what murderers and child molesters
	and cryptographers do. After all, his uncle says money launderers 
	stay in jail longer than murderers and child molesters, right?
Johnny feels, after all, crackheads and child molesters can't control what 
	they do, but people who keep money hidden away from the government,
	well, that's very, _VERY_ bad.
Johnny feels if there are too many money launderers, he might be forced to 
	have to use SmartCard to buy _his own_ strawberry-flavored condoms.
Johnny feels that would suck.

See Johnny's dad open a letter from his political party asking for
	contributions and investments for our children.
The politician writes to Johnny's dad that if Johnny's dad gives him enough
	investment capital, the politician will be elected, then he can form
	a bipartisan coalition of concerned politicians to finally declare 
	martial law to crack down on money launderers and other terrorists.
The politician says it is Johnny's dad's duty to contribute to the cause.
Johnny's dad writes a check for $999.99 made out to the Republicrat Peoples
	Party of America.
Johnny's dad delivers the check personally to the party office. He ran out 
	of stamps and doesn't like to go to the post office anyway for fear
	of getting shot.
The politician calls his buddy at the IRS.
Johnny's dad's scheduled audit is cancelled.
The check bounces.

The politician deposits the money in his Swiss bank account after routing it
	through multiple dummy corporations via cross-continent swaps and 
	a chain of wire-transfers performed by cut-out surrogates.
Strangely enough, during this time, the FINCEN Transactional Analysis 
	Software was down for maintenance.
So was INTERFIPOL's. How 'bout that?

Johnny's dad picks up the remote and starts to channel-surf. 
Johnny's dad's mistress is watching the Jerry Stringer show. Today's show
	is titled "A Dominatrix needs love too; a servant's Christmas guide
	to buying harnesses, dildos and lubricant for that special someone."

See Johnny's aunt go to the 24-7 to buy lottery tickets.
Johnny's aunt doesn't have a bank account and cashes her government checks 
	at a check cashing service. Johnny's aunt buys several money
	orders to send to distant relatives in the Czech Republic. FINCEN 
	goons suspect she is a money launderer.
Johnny's aunt buys a carton of cigarettes with her food stamps. She gets 
	into her old beater and drives off.
Johnny's aunt has a smile on her face.
At that moment a low-elevation spy satellite is passing over the 24-7.
A bored NSA spook is watching Johnny's aunt, too. He thinks to himself 
	'That Jerry Stringer show was much more interesting than this crap.
	If she's a money launderer, I'm Al Capone.'
Johnny's aunt wants to play bingo at the church fundraiser tonight. The 
	church is a thirty minute drive from the 24-7 if she gets on the 
	interstate. Since she doesn't have a TollCard, or a driver's 
	license for that matter, she decides to take the arterial roads.
Johnny's aunt is feeling very lucky.
She'll review her encrypted forwarded statements from Robber Barron Bank, 
	Grand Cayman branch, afterwards.

See Johnny's mommy stuff her face with cookies and cake.
See Johnny's mommy go to the instant-no-effort weight loss clinic.
See Johnny's mommy watch the nice network news anchor tell her about a new 
	approved breakthrough magic weight loss wonder drug pill.
See the nice multinational pharmaceutical's commercial promoting the 
	revolutionary miracle cure for those victimized by obesity. 
Johnny's mommy thinks, at last, I can stuff my face with all the munchies I 
	wanna eat, and still look thinner than a heroin junkie.
Johnny's mommy rolls her own joints.

See Johnny's sister pick up the remote. She starts to channel surf.
See Johnny's sister watch a breast-implant infomercial.

See Johnny's mommy pop two pen-pen pills.
Johnny's mommy needs heart surgery.
See the extremist doctor invent an effective treatment for pen-pen induced
	heart problems.
See the FDA not approve the treatment.
See the FDA helicopter gunships strafe the extremist terrorist doctor's 
	clinic and confiscate his property.
See Johnny's mommy get liposuction.
Johnny's mommy feels socialized medicine is a right. She is relieved to hear
	the government has dictated that liposuction is covered under her
	health plan since it is approved and not done for cosmetic reasons.

The government doctor that Johnny has a license to receive treatment from 
	has some very very disturbing news. While the super-duper-penicillin
	will probably kill off the super-penicillin resistant strain of
	syphilis he's picked up, there is an eight month waiting list for
	a week's supply at the government-run pharmacy. 
Even worse, the wonder drug that was supposed to be able to treat 
	that nasty rash on his private parts has been recalled
	because, although effective at removing herpes, it had the 
	unfortunate side effect of causing male reproductive organs to 
	shrivel up and fall off. 
Labeled "Lorena's Solution" by the press, several lawsuits are now pending.
	A spokesman for Cure My Willy LLC, had no comment.
'There's nothing more I can do except refer you to a qualified counselor."
	Johnny's assigned doctor said.

Something's wrong.
Johnny's depressed.
Life is tough these days what with all the drug-dealing gun-toting 
	money-laundering anonymous-remailing cash-using message-encrypting 
	mean-spirited insensitively-polluting insufficiently-contributing 
	pornography-consuming tax-evading conspiracy-theorizing 
	uncompassionate-hateful-moral-values-imposing 
	constitutionalist-reactionary-isolationist-survivalist 
	bomb-building-fertilizer-buying right-wing-fanatical terrorist cells
	running around out there tormenting Johnny and posing a threat to 
	all the other little children we must protect from harm.
Johnny's mommy is upset. It's not supposed to be this dangerous living in a
	social democracy like ours. Johnny's mommy decides to get involved. She forms
	She forms M.A.E.D.; Mothers Against Everything Dangerous.
Johnny's mommy is empowered now. Journalists quote her as an authoritative
	source when they write their stories. MAED is getting laws passed.
	Good things are happening.
But something's still wrong.
Johnny's still depressed. What could it be? He won't talk to me about it.
Johnny's mommy is frantic, she does what any decent responsible parent would
	do under the circumstances, Johnny's mommy e-mails her congressman:
NONE OF US ARE SAFE. DO SOMETHING. ANYTHING. MAKE IT GO AWAY! NOW!!!!

Johnny's therapist knows what's wrong with him.
He knows just what Johnny needs.
But lobotomies are not politically-correct.
So we'll put Johnny on Shitalin.
Johnny can cope now.
Ahhh, isn't Johnny adorable? Look how calm he is.

Johnny's goverment thinks Johnny is a model citizen. They'll pay for the 
Shitalin. Poorzac, too, if he wants it. No waiting list for those drugs.
Everyone knows we must all give up our freedom to protect The Children.
Anything for the Children. Like Johnny. We must make sacrifices jor Johnny.
There is too much freedom. And not enough protection for The Children.
If we don't do something now what does the future hold for all the Children?
Children are our most precious resource. The Children are the future.
Like Johnny... We can save them. Join MAED now won't you...

- -----END TERRORIST PLAINTEXT MUNITION MESSAGE-----

	� Copyright November 1997-2067 Jo Min Ivan. All Rights Reserved.

This touching bit of agitprop brought to you by:

POL POT CHUCK & Associates

"Exterminating the unarmed, socialist intelligentsia since 1917."

Pol Pot Chuck sayz:
Learn how to plant evidence, explosives and informants: Support your local
	N.G.O.
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From rab at stallion.oz.au  Mon Nov 10 16:01:29 1997
From: rab at stallion.oz.au (rab at stallion.oz.au)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:01:29 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <82E14F2F282AD11180330000010380310367B6@mallory.stallion.oz.au>



Tim May wrote:
> Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
> government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.
> 
> And people wonder why the militia movement is gaining strength every
> day.
> 
> The au pair Louise Woodward will serve less time in jail than Jim Bell
> will. While Bell languishes in a Washington state jail, awaiting (for
> almost 7 months!!) his sentence, the convicted babykiller is now free.
> 
> I guess having a couple of fake SS tattoos, er, "numbers," and
> possibly opening a vial of mercaptin where some people would smell it,
> is a more serious crime than shaking a baby to death.
> 
> Only in Amerika.
> 
> Lock and load.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
Here in Australia the media has been giving this trial regular coverage
with the spin "Innocent English Person Wrongly Found Guilty by US Jury".
The coverage led me to believe that despite scientific evidence to  the
contrary the jury found Woodward guilty.  One other point from the
coverage was that Woodward represented herself for at least some part of
the trial, did Jim Bell do this too?

Obviously Tim you have been exposed to very different media coverage.

RAB






From marshall at ibm.net  Mon Nov 10 16:24:44 1997
From: marshall at ibm.net (James F. Marshall)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:24:44 +0800
Subject: Mixmaster Port Question
Message-ID: <199711110014.AAA30800@out2.ibm.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The DOS version of Mixmaster requires Private Idaho.  Does a more
generic version, not dependent on Private Idaho, exist?

Has Mixmaster been ported to OS/2?

- -- James F. Marshall, Esq., Pasadena, California
   Subject "JFM Public Key" for PGP Public Key

- -- OS/2 is to Windows as Stradivarius is to Yamaha

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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From healthy1 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Nov 11 08:28:48 1997
From: healthy1 at bellatlantic.net (healthy1 at bellatlantic.net)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:28:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ....GUILT FREE HOLIDAYS !!
Message-ID: <199711111618.LAA28931@candy.micro-net.net>


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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 10 16:54:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:54:46 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <199711110037.BAA02171@basement.replay.com>



rab at stallion.oz.au wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > The au pair Louise Woodward will serve less time in jail than Jim Bell
> > will. While Bell languishes in a Washington state jail, awaiting (for
> > almost 7 months!!) his sentence, the convicted babykiller is now free.
> >
> > I guess having a couple of fake SS tattoos, er, "numbers," and
> > possibly opening a vial of mercaptin where some people would smell it,
> > is a more serious crime than shaking a baby to death.

> Here in Australia the media has been giving this trial regular coverage
> with the spin "Innocent English Person Wrongly Found Guilty by US Jury".
> The coverage led me to believe that despite scientific evidence to  the
> contrary the jury found Woodward guilty.  One other point from the
> coverage was that Woodward represented herself for at least some part of
> the trial, did Jim Bell do this too?

It was apparent to many Canadians that the au pair would be found guilty
of having 'traditional British Reserve.' The American system of justice
is nothing more than a dog-and-pony show, particularly in hi-profile
cases. The dumb British kid was under some mistaken impression that
the trial would be based on facts.

The prosecution could have mounted as good or better a case against
the child's parents. (Two physicians that don't notice that their child
has suffered a fractured wrist and skull? No wonder they were so hot
to have the girl convicted.)
The Judge knows damn well that reasonable doubt was visibly established,
and I suspect he's trying to get everyone out of the mess as quickly
and easily as possible. 

Bell's case is different. He was villainized within the court system
and there was little chance of it going to trial, unless he managed
to find an attorney who never wanted to win another case.
Bell's public defender turned down outside offeres of assistance from
veteran attorneys, and Bell was kept under wraps.
My guess is that Bell was the first Cypherpunk to receive the coming
digital implants.

MongerUnit #2347






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 10 16:57:08 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:57:08 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <82E14F2F282AD11180330000010380310367B6@mallory.stallion.oz.au>
Message-ID: <v03102802b08d4a594185@[207.167.93.63]>



At 4:47 PM -0700 11/10/97, rab at stallion.oz.au wrote:

>Here in Australia the media has been giving this trial regular coverage
>with the spin "Innocent English Person Wrongly Found Guilty by US Jury".
>The coverage led me to believe that despite scientific evidence to  the
>contrary the jury found Woodward guilty.  One other point from the
>coverage was that Woodward represented herself for at least some part of
>the trial, did Jim Bell do this too?
>
>Obviously Tim you have been exposed to very different media coverage.

Whatever. I've been exposed to entirely too much media coverage, that's for
sure.

I happen to believe Woodward was probably overcharged, in that I doubt she
had the requisite malice for a murder rap, though I think she did in fact
shake the baby.  So, manslaughter seems like an appropriate charge. From
what I've seen. But I wasn't on the jury. And those who _were_ on the jury
concluded she was guilty.

My main point was that James Dalton Bell has already spent nearly 7 months
in jail, and has yet to even be sentenced.  This seems out of whack. Where
I come from, sentence is part of a speedy trial.

Legally-trained Greg Broiles tells us that this is part of the Fed's
process of "determining" a sentence (my quotes, not necessarily Greg's).

Well, I call it "letting him twist slowly in the wind." Probably in the
hopes that he'll roll over on some of us who communicated with him, or
whose writings influenced him, on his Assassination Politics ideas. A kind
of psychological torture, designed to dangle a lighter sentence at the same
time a heavier sentence is threatened. Not my idea of a fair justice system.

>From Bell's notes to the outside world, reposted by John Young, it appears
the half-year of indeterminate sentence, as Bell awaits his "real"
sentence, has had the effect of breaking him, of causing him to recant his
views, and (speculating) perhaps rolling over on some of us.

When Bell is finally sentenced, supposedly on November 20th, it'll be
interesting to see what else happens.

I stand by my point that a convicted baby killer--whether the fickle media
thinks a nice girl like her did it or not--will end up serving less time in
jail than Jim Bell will. And Bell didn't kill a baby. Or anyone else. Nor
was anyone physically harmed by his crimes.

As for Australia, your countrymen acted like sheep in giving up their guns.
If they try that kind of shit here in this country, a *lot* of cops are
going to get killed.

(Not necessarily by me, though I'll defend my property and my
constitutional rights as best I can. But the militia and patriot and
anti-New World Order movements are preparing for war.)

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 10 17:15:48 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:15:48 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711110101.CAA05203@basement.replay.com>



"Paul Bradley" <csm70830 at port.ac.uk> wrote:

> > >This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
> > >average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
> > >Demand a new CPU from Intel.
> >
> > This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?
> 
> No way, this P200 croaked instantly the code was run, in the wrong
> hands this has serious network takedown potential.

The bug is a race condition in the L1 cache, so it doesn't always crash
when executing this, just sometimes.  It depends on what's in the cache.






From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Nov 10 17:28:19 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:28:19 +0800
Subject: More Crypto Statements
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111011926.00b3f2e4@pop.pipeline.com>



>From November 9 Congressional Record:

Rep. Sherman on encryption exports and domestic controls:

   http://jya.com/sher-crypto.txt  (15K)

Rep. Dreier on need for strong encryption to protect national
security:

  http://jya.com/dreier-crypto.txt  (4K)

----------

Declan, anyone, is this flood of statements due to an 
industry campaign, or one by Majortiy Leader Lott, 
or Speaker Gingrich, or a combination, or what?

What's your insider intel, Declan, will these initiatives continue
into the next session or are they just cheap dues paying 
for the moment, while getting ready to sellout when the 
rain of if-you-knew-what-we've-been-briefed shit showers 
down next year?

What's Kerrey, McCain, Solomon counter-campaigning 
with the TLAs?






From fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU  Mon Nov 10 17:30:43 1997
From: fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU (Fabrice Planchon)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:30:43 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b08d18c99cbf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971110200927.24490@math.princeton.edu>



On lun 10 nov  1997 � 01:06:08PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
> Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
> government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.

I just read the judge statement and found it rather good. It seems to me
that he explains quite well the motivations of his decisions and so
on. Now, wether he would have taken time to deeply think about the issue
if the whole thing was taking place in a small american town with a
babysitter from the neighborhood and no big media coverage, we don't
know. It seems that the only thing which can be argued is wether the
final sentence is appropriate or not. I guess the media will provide us
with statistics on "how long you have to stay in prison when you have
been convicted of manslaughter". I would expect a few years. She finally
spent a little bit more than one year. Ok. Still, from what we have seen
of the american justice system in the past few years, I feel like this
is an improvement, where common sense takes over money, racial issues,
politics, etc. Or am I fooled by the media ;-) ?

> The au pair Louise Woodward will serve less time in jail than Jim Bell
> will. While Bell languishes in a Washington state jail, awaiting (for
> almost 7 months!!) his sentence, the convicted babykiller is now free.

As I said, she served some time waiting for her trial, too. Don't you
think you are shooting the wrong target here ? I mean, I certainly agree
that what's happening to Jim Bell seems like a parody of justice (and
you have Mitnick, too, and other examples can be found), but why to make
a comparaison between the two (or, let me rephrase it, as you have
actually all the rights to make a comparaison, it terms of how long did
the procedure take, and so on), why would you say "as the judicial
system is not working with Jim Bell, it shouldn't be working with the
babysitter" ? or explain why you think it would be a fair sentence to
let her in jail for the rest of her life ? (well, ok, at least 15 years
before parole)

                        F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735








From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Nov 10 17:44:19 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:44:19 +0800
Subject: Gun Control brings on a New Arms Race
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971110173313.007023b0@cnw.com>



Tim May wrote:

>All I bought were some lasers, some .223 vest-piercers, and a few special
>parts for my Colt HBAR. Oh, and I took delivery on a so-called "assault
>pistol"--30 rounds of .223 rifle ammunition in a package that fits under an
>overcoat. I'll be ready for the November Raids.
..............................................


If we ever get into a real domestic war, I wanna go stay with Tim,
what with that arsenal stocked in his closet.
:>)


    ..
Blanc






From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Nov 10 18:01:24 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:01:24 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111015901.00b8b324@pop.pipeline.com>



There's been movement in Jim Bell's penal situation which is 
being looked into (not by me). Details coming soon.







From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 10 18:43:50 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:43:50 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b08d18c99cbf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b08d6576a063@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:09 PM -0700 11/10/97, Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>On lun 10 nov  1997 � 01:06:08PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
>> government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.
>
>I just read the judge statement and found it rather good. It seems to me
>that he explains quite well the motivations of his decisions and so
>on. Now, wether he would have taken time to deeply think about the issue
>if the whole thing was taking place in a small american town with a
>babysitter from the neighborhood and no big media coverage, we don't
>know. It seems that the only thing which can be argued is wether the
>final sentence is appropriate or not. I guess the media will provide us
>with statistics on "how long you have to stay in prison when you have
>been convicted of manslaughter". I would expect a few years. She finally
>spent a little bit more than one year. Ok. Still, from what we have seen

279 days.



>of the american justice system in the past few years, I feel like this
>is an improvement, where common sense takes over money, racial issues,
>politics, etc. Or am I fooled by the media ;-) ?

You were fooled by the "pathos pendulum." The media started treating her as
poor little Louise Woodward, innocent au pair from Merrye Olde England,
being oppressed by the patriarchal colonials.

(Watch for the pendulum to now swing in the other direction.)

>As I said, she served some time waiting for her trial, too. Don't you

279 days. Yes, this is well known to those who followed it.

>think you are shooting the wrong target here ? I mean, I certainly agree

No, else I wouldn't have written what I wrote.

I said in two different posts that my main point was about Bell spending
more time in jail than a convicted baby killer.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 10 18:48:59 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:48:59 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <199711110231.DAA17119@basement.replay.com>



MongerUnit #2347 writes:

>It was apparent to many Canadians that the au pair would be found guilty
>of having 'traditional British Reserve.' The American system of justice
>is nothing more than a dog-and-pony show, particularly in hi-profile
>cases. The dumb British kid was under some mistaken impression that
>the trial would be based on facts.

No doubt their decision to hire Barry Scheck was based on his quiet, gentle
demeanor in front of a jury.







From Turn.on.Inn at 25152.com  Tue Nov 11 11:57:58 1997
From: Turn.on.Inn at 25152.com (Turn.on.Inn at 25152.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:57:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Check in with us!
Message-ID: <This message contains adult themes.  If you are under 18 or are offended by such material please delete this message immediately!>


<HTML><PRE></P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=5><B>This email contains adult themes.  If you will be offended,</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" SIZE=5> click here!<FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" BACK="#000000" SIZE=3>










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From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Nov 10 21:37:52 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:37:52 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711110513.VAA13432@sirius.infonex.com>



While reading the report of the Presidential on Commission Critical Infrastructure Protection,
the Public Key Infrastructure Study and the draft plans for Internet-2, it is becoming
even more aparent what government schemers plan to do with encryption technology.

Some of the statements literaly call for key escrow/recovery systems and others
imply it extensively when one reads between the lines. They want security on the 
Internet-2 to be like the Berlin Wall.

What amazes me (I guess not, really) is all of the so-called free market corporations
that are in collusion with governent to enable this new Internet Security State. I have
long thought that if government is going to be successful at forcing key recovery onto
the nation in law that it was going to have to have the help of the major corporations
who are looking for the money. It was only one year ago that IBM was lobbying congress
for the contract on the new key escrow system congress was considering and the FBI, et al
were demanding. Never turn your back on the merchantilists.

The IRS, right now, is calling for assistance with their _second_ attempt at revitalising
their archaic networks, mainframes and software. Again, it's the major corporations
rushing in to their aid while looking for those "big dollars". [IRS just spent 4 Billion
a few years back on the very same effort and have virtually nothing to show for it]

Corporate America Saves the IRS. What a headline. Corporate America wants the IRS to be
able to survive to tax us all into oblivion, when what they ought to do is turn their
backs on the IRS, walk away and let them fall in on themselves just like the Soviet Union did.
If we're lucky, around December 31, 1999, the IRS will crash along with their computer systems.

Sparticus






From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Nov 10 23:26:27 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:26:27 +0800
Subject: 
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971110232351.0068a10c@cnw.com>



Sparticus wrote:

>Corporate America Saves the IRS. What a headline. Corporate America wants
the IRS to be
>able to survive to tax us all into oblivion, when what they ought to do is
turn their
>backs on the IRS, walk away and let them fall in on themselves just like
the Soviet Union did.
>If we're lucky, around December 31, 1999, the IRS will crash along with
their computer systems.
..............................................

And a lot of those corporations are probably highly Democrat-ic.
Something I've not yet understood is how some very successful companies and
individuals (like very wealthy entertainters) can be so supportive of the
likes of Clinton and the whole Democrat-ic welfare/taxation agenda (this is
not to say that Republicans are much better in their ideology, but only
outright, declared Socialists are worse).

I mean, these people may be able to write off a lot of business expenses
and so receive those types of benefits, but they will support regulations
which make it difficult for the non-business owning individual to keep much
of what the income they make or to become employed in their own small,
unlicensed occupations.

What could they be thinking?   Or maybe that's the deal -  they expect that
they themselves won't suffer too much economically, because they know how
to get the advantages of the regulations which they support, but being
control freaks they want to be in the position to "help" everyone else, and
regulations provides them with the image of "benefactors".

Still, anyone who "gets the advantage" of tax deductions for whatever
itemizing they can do on business deals is nevertheless required to answer
for their every move, their every economic decision, to the Higher
Authority of the IRS.  This is dumb, and demoralizing.  To me, anyway; it
appears that people like them don't care all that much about personal
sovereignty as long as they get to lord over others in the meantime.

    ..
Blanc






From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Nov 10 23:35:28 1997
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:35:28 +0800
Subject: Fwd: psychoceramics: Fighting back against the Government
Message-ID: <199711110737.XAA03002@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>



This is an interesting spin doctoring of Jim Bell's situation.  I picked
this up off the psychoceramics list.  Why it was there is unclear...

>>From http://www.usnews.com:80/usnews/issue/971117/17weap.htm

>Terrorism's next waveNerve gas and germs are the new weapons of choice
> BY DAVID E. KAPLAN
>
>Jeff Gordon thought he had seen it all. A veteran IRS investigator,
>Gordon's job since 1988 had been to probe threats and assaults against
>his fellow agents. There was no shortage in recent years--stabbings,
>fires, mortar attacks, and big unexploded bombs outside IRS offices in
>Los Angeles and Reno, Nevada. But in the first months of this year,
>Gordon found himself working on the strangest case of his career. From
>an informant, he had learned of a Portland, Ore., man named James Dalton
>Bell. Bell owed some $30,000 in back taxes and served as a juror in a
>local "common law court." Dozens of these self-appointed tribunals have
>issued "fines" and even death sentences against public officials.
>Bell was also active in antigovernment forums on the Internet, where he
>had posted a dark scheme threatening murder of troublesome federal
>agents. Participants could send encrypted messages to each other, Bell
>proposed, offering donations to whoever "predicted" how long a targeted
>official would live. The winner, presumably the assassin, would be
>rewarded with electronic fund transfers from anonymous donors, 
>hesuggested.
>Gordon checked further. Bell, it turned out, was an electronics engineer
>at a nearby circuit board manufacturer. He was also an MIT-educated
>chemist who had been arrested eight years earlier for making
>methamphetamine, but pleaded guilty to a lesser charge. According to
>court records, Bell had once told a friend: "The first thing to remember
>is: Never make a chemist angry at you."
>In February, the IRS docked Bell's wages and seized his 10-year-old car.
>Inside the vehicle, Gordon found instructions for making bombs and
>molotov cocktails. There was also far-right literature, a printout
>listing large amounts of cyanide, and detailed information on
>fertilizer, a key ingredient in the Oklahoma City bomb. But with no
>evidence that Bell had hurt anyone, Gordon could not move.
>A burning stench. Four weeks later, on a Monday morning in March, IRS
>officials encountered a terrible nose-burning stench as they arrived at
>their building in Vancouver, the Portland suburb where Bell lived.
>Investigators traced the smell to a welcome mat dosed with propanethiol.
>The chemical is used by utilities in minuscule concentrations to give
>natural gas its noticeable smell. "It's Bell," Gordon told his boss.
>"I'm sure of it." Bell had attempted twice to buy propanethiol from a
>chemical-supply company in Milwaukee, Gordon then learned. Worried that
>the stink bomb was a trial run for something much worse, on April 1,
>authorities raided Bell's home. They seized five computers and three
>semiautomatic assault rifles, then opened his garage door. Before them
>stood dozens of containers filled with chemicals. There were volatile
>solvents, explosives ingredients, sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and
>diisopropyl fluorophosphate--one of several ingredients that, if
>properly mixed, form nerve gas--all in a residential neighborhood. "The
>level and type of chemicals were extremely unusual," said Leroy
>Loiselle, who managed the cleanup for the Environmental Protection
>Agency. "You don't need nitric acid to keep aphids off your flowers."
>On Bell's computers, Gordon found two other items: the names and home
>addresses of over 100 public officials--IRS employees, FBI agents, local
>police officers--and a 169-page document, The Terrorist's Handbook, with
>detailed instructions for making chemical weapons and high explosives.
>Bell's friends told investigators that he had tried using green beans to
>make botulin toxin, which causes botulism, and that he claimed to have
>successfully made sarin, the nerve gas used by Japanese cultists in
>their 1995 attack on the Tokyo subway.
>Bell was arrested. In July he pleaded guilty to charges of obstruction
>of IRS agents and use of a false Social Security number, and also
>admitted to the stink bomb attack and the cyberassassination scheme. He
>faces up to eight years in prison and $500,000 in fines. Bell declined
>to comment, but he contended earlier that he is merely "a chemical
>hobbyist" and the assassination scheme only an abstract proposal. "I'm a
>talker, not a doer," he said. The IRS's Jeff Gordon remains wary.
>According to court records, after his arrest Bell boasted to a friend
>that police never found his most dangerous chemical weapons. Gordon
>believes they could include a secret stockpile of sarin.
>New generation. Characters like James Dalton Bell are giving federal
>officials fits these days. Bell, they believe, is one of a new
>generation of tinkerers and technicians, of college-educated extremists
>threatening to use biological, chemical, or radiological weapons to
>achieve their goals. Since the Aum cult's Tokyo nerve gas attack, FBI
>officials say the number of credible threats to use these weapons has
>jumped from a handful in 1995, to 20 last year, to twice that number
>this year. Among the incidents was the 1995 mailing of a videotape to
>Disneyland, showing two hands mixing chemicals and a note threatening an
>attack on the theme park. Despite a major investigation, the sender was
>never caught. Just last April someone sent a petri dish labeled anthrax,
>an animal disease deadly to humans, to the B'nai B'rith headquarters in
>Washington, D.C. That proved to be a hoax.
>But other threats appear to be quite real. Four militia members in
>Minnesota were convicted recently of planning to assassinate federal
>agents with a biological toxin. In Ohio in 1995, a white supremacist
>pleaded guilty to wire fraud in illegally obtaining three vials of
>bubonic plague bacteria. Investigators have found biochemical agents in
>the hands of political extremists, extortionists, murderers, and the
>mentally ill. U.S. News has learned that the FBI has 50 current
>investigations of individuals suspected of using or planning to use
>radiological, biological, or chemical agents. Bureau officials say a
>major attack in the United States no longer seems unlikely. "The
>consensus of people in the law enforcement and intelligence communities
>is that it's not a matter of if it's going to happen, it's when," warns
>Robert Blitzer, head of the FBI's terrorism section. "We are 
>veryconcerned."
>To prepare, federal agencies have scrambled to set up new
>counterterrorism strike forces (story, Page 32). Behind all this is the
>very real fear that the world has entered a new stage in terrorism.
>Widespread technical education and high-tech communications have vastly
>increased the number of people with knowledge of how to synthesize
>chemicals and culture bacteria. Books and videos on creating these
>substances--and turning them into weapons--are now available on the
>Internet, at gun shows and survivalist fairs, and through the mail.
>While its effects would be the most destructive, a nuclear incident is
>actually the least likely scenario, according to security experts. More
>likely, they say, would be a biological weapon attack; a chemical attack
>is the next likely possibility. The impact could range from the
>poisoning of an individual to sophisticated attempts at mass murder. So
>far, the majority have been limited efforts by loners or small groups.
>Most worrisome to officials is the possible involvement of more
>established, state-sponsored terrorist organizations--such as
>Hezbollah--with international reach.
>While the number of terrorist attacks, both in the United States and
>abroad, has gone down since the end of the cold war, there is a flip
>side. Individual acts themselves have grown more deadly, as illustrated
>by the Oklahoma City and World Trade Center bombings. In its annual
>terrorism report issued last April, the State Department sees a trend
>"toward more ruthless attacks on mass civilian targets" and the use of
>more powerful weapons.
>Threshold crossed. Until this decade, biological and chemical weapons
>were the province of superpowers or renegade states like Iraq and North
>Korea. But all that changed with Aum Supreme Truth, an obscure sect of
>New Age fanatics based at the foot of Mount Fuji, 70 miles outside
>Tokyo. Recent court testimony from sect members shows how the cult's
>young scientists produced not only anthrax and botulin toxin but also
>various nerve agents, including the sarin used on Tokyo's subway. Later
>attacks were planned for New York and Washington, D.C.
>Still, it is one thing to produce deadly agents and another to use them
>effectively. Aum's attack killed only 12 people of the thousands in the
>subway system, and on seven other occasions, attempted Aum attacks were
>dogged by equipment failures and human error. "Trying to produce 100,000
>casualties is much more difficult than is often stated," observes
>Jonathan Tucker of the Monterey Institute of International Studies.
>Tucker notes that problems abound with delivery systems, meteorological
>conditions, and the agents themselves. Still, he warns that even crude
>weapons can easily cause mass disruption. Aum's nerve gas, for example,
>was full of impurities, yet it sent thousands to the hospital.
>What worries police is growing evidence that others share similar
>ambitions. In 1993, two years before the Aum attack, Canadian border
>agents stopped an American electrician named Thomas Lavy and searched
>his car. They found four guns, 20,000 rounds of ammunition, 13 pounds of
>gunpowder, neo-Nazi literature, and $80,000 in cash. Lavy also had
>recipes for biological and chemical weapons and a plastic bag filled
>with white powder. Had the agents opened the bag, they likely would have
>died of respiratory failure and paralysis. Tests showed the substance to
>be ricin, a lethal toxin extracted from the castor bean plant. (Ricin,
>dabbed on a tiny pellet fired from an umbrella-gun, was used by Soviet
>agents to murder a Bulgarian in London in 1978.) The poison is 6,000
>times more toxic than cyanide, and there is no antidote. Lavy had a
>quarter pound of the stuff.
>In 1995, a man named Larry Wayne Harris was arrested after he obtained
>vials of the bacteria that cause bubonic plague (Page 28). Harris is an
>Ohio microbiologist and recent member of the white supremacist Aryan
>Nations. He says his friends will strike at government officials with
>biochemical weapons, if provoked. "If they arrest a bunch of our guys,
>they get a test tube in the mail," he told U.S. News. And, he says, far
>worse could come. "How many cities are you willing to lose before you
>back off?" he asks. "At what point do you say: `If these guys want to go
>off to the Northwest and have five states declared to be their own free
>and independent country, let them do it'?" Authorities take Harris's
>comments seriously.
>The recipes for such poison cocktails are available from underground
>publishers and on the Internet. One popularizer is an Arkansan named
>Kurt Saxon. Through books and videotapes, Saxon has been putting out
>ricin recipes for at least nine years. Convinced that the U.S. will be
>invaded and that the federal government can't be trusted to defend the
>country, he has fashioned various homemade explosives and poisons,
>including cyanide grenades and ricin applicators. In one segment of a
>$19.95 video, Saxon performs like a sinister Julia Child, blending salt
>water and solvents with castor beans. ("Pour in about 4 ounces of
>acetone," he says, "and shake it up nice.") "Uncle Fester," another
>near-legendary figure in the chem-bio underground, has authored such
>family classics as Silent Death, Improvised Explosives, and a guide to
>methamphetamine and LSD manufacture. Fester claims degrees in chemistry
>and biology, and his Silent Death describes how to produce poison gas,
>botulin and shellfish toxins, and ricin.
>Similarly, entire manuals for making homemade explosives--TNT, plastic,
>napalm--can be downloaded from the Net, as well as plans for building
>triggers, fuses, and timers. At least 11 online vendors offer books with
>recipes on biological or chemical weapons, including Silent Death and
>Kurt Saxon's The Poor Man's James Bond. All are based in the United
>States. Adding to the problem, many of the chemicals used to make nerve
>gas and other agents have perfectly legitimate uses and are readily
>available. "The genie has always been out of the bottle," says one
>intelligence analyst. "People are just discovering it."
>The genie is also loose in the Middle East. According to intelligence
>sources, notebooks and computer files recently seized from Hezbollah,
>the Iranian-backed Islamic militia, contain information on how to
>produce chemical agents. Hezbollah has also taken delivery of protective
>gear, including gas masks and bodysuits, and obtained Katyusha rockets
>able to deliver chemical warheads to Israel from their base in Lebanon.
>Hezbollah's interests are shared by at least one other Islamic
>terrorist, Ramzi Yusef, a trained engineer and reputed mastermind of the
>1993 World Trade Center bombing. Yusef's organization researched making
>sarin and reportedly planned to assassinate President Clinton in the
>Philippines with phosgene gas. The trade center bombers also packed
>cyanide into the charge that rocked the building; the chemical
>apparently evaporated in the explosion.
>Some analysts believe there have been other, unnoticed, attacks in the
>United States. "It's almost certain there have been uses of biological
>agents that have gone undetected," says Seth Carus, a proliferation
>expert at the National Defense University. "Most cases are known because
>they came to the attention of law enforcement through informants, not
>because of medical authorities." Health officials, for example, were
>mystified by a mass outbreak of salmonella poisoning in Oregon in 1984.
>The cause--an attack by a nearby religious sect--went undetected until
>the cult's demise a year later.
>Exotic poisons are attracting not only terrorists but also murderers and
>extortionists. Several recent trials have featured ricin as a murder
>weapon. Product tamperers, too, are increasingly turning to biological
>agents. Says Lori Ericson of Kroll Information Services: "We're seeing
>E. coli, cholera, salmonella, HIV." In one British case, microbiologist
>Michael Just threatened to contaminate the products of five food
>companies with dysentery-causing bacteria. To make his point, he sent
>the firms test tubes filled with the pathogen.
>Society can likely tolerate the occasional murderer or extortionist
>wielding biological or chemical weapons. The greater challenge
>undoubtedly will come from those with broader grievances, from
>terrorists steeped in extremism and political hatred. Perhaps scariest
>of all are the criminally insane, who may bring technical ability, but
>little judgment, to their homemade laboratories. Last April, authorities
>raided the house of one Thomas Leahy in Janesville, Wis. Leahy, who
>takes medication for schizophrenia, was obsessed with creating "killer
>viruses" to stop his enemies, both real and imagined, according to
>police. He pleaded guilty to possessing ricin, but a search of his home
>also found animal viruses and vaccines, staph bacteria culture,
>fungicides, insecticides, hypodermic needles, and gas masks. As Leahy
>reportedly told his wife, you can "never have too many poisons."
> With Douglas Pasternak and Gordon Witkin
>***********************************************************************
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>(letter
>
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---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk  Tue Nov 11 02:22:44 1997
From: jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk (jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:22:44 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <2278.9711111011@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>



Tim May Writes: 
> At 6:09 PM -0700 11/10/97, Fabrice Planchon wrote:
> >On lun 10 nov  1997 =E0 01:06:08PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >>
> >> Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
> >> government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.

Well the courts/administration seem to think so. Or at least think that
killing a baby is less deserving of punishment that standing against the
administration and spreading dangerous (to them) ideas (AP), which is what 
Jim is realy being punished for.
 
> 279 days.

It has been stated over here (by some American Law Professor) that this
sentence is only slghtly below the average usually served for this kind
of Involentary Manslaughter. Is this just made up because it is what people
over here want to hear of is it vaguely accurate?
 
> >think you are shooting the wrong target here ? I mean, I certainly agree
> 
> No, else I wouldn't have written what I wrote.

I think that perhaps the emphasis of what you said is being changed by other
writers who are hot under the collar about the Woodward case.

> I said in two different posts that my main point was about Bell spending
> more time in jail than a convicted baby killer.

Leaving aside the problem with a system where a judge can overturn the 
decision of a Jury (I have not seen all of the evidence so have no idea
if she is guilty or innocent but if you enter a country you implicitly
agree to abide by their laws and legal system, however what is the point
of having a Jury if the Judge can do this sort of thing?) then the actual
problem is the length of time that Jim is spending in prison and nothing 
to do with the Woodward case at all. It just goes to illustrate, once again, 
how laws are selectively enforced and procedures slowed in order to punish 
people who can not otherwise be punished as much as the administration would 
like to.

Forget Woodward, Free Jim Bell!

Jon






From hjk at ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de  Tue Nov 11 04:35:10 1997
From: hjk at ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de (=?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?=)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:35:10 +0800
Subject: Serious bug in Cyrix.IBM,SGS 6x86 CPU
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971111131245.3791B-100000@alien.lummerland.de>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


There is an article in the latest c't computer magazin about a bug
called 'Hidden CLI' in all the 6x86 CPUs including M2.
As I do not have access to such a CPU I can't verify it.
The code:
          MOV BX,70h
          STI
again:    XCHG AX,[BX]
          MOV DX,AX
          JMP again
The CPU hangs ignoring all interrupts.
Anybody heard about it?
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Heinz-Juergen Keller  hjk@[mail.]ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de   hjkeller at gmx.[net,de]
  2047bit PGP Public Key : http://www.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de/~hjk/
  MD5 Fingerprint: 4d33126fbf8c1bcd8e96ba90d99f0bdc
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

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QHgFokrrlMf4/bNzQnemUWR6L8a6/NMFc6TYJqv7iE13GvKG4gLjLZDBsvyaXLSH
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=MFmw
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From gs at dev.null  Tue Nov 11 04:38:58 1997
From: gs at dev.null (George Spelvin)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:38:58 +0800
Subject: InforWar Epilogue 9 / Geigerburg Text
Message-ID: <34684CDF.1503@dev.null>



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                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
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                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * M$ Cowboy

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                                  Epilogue
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The Criminalization of Poverty in Capitalist America by Jalil Abdul Muntaqim

                                 (Excerpts)

An anonymous poet in the 1700's wrote about crime: "The law will punish a
man or woman who steals the goose from the hillside, but lets the greater
robber loose who steals the hillside from the goose."
If you steal $5 you're a thief, but if you steal $5 million-you're a
financier .

In the dictionary, the word "crime" means "an act which is against the law."
Crime applies particularly to an act that breaks a law that has been made
for public good. Crime in one country, the dictionary continued, "may be
entirely overlooked by the law in another country or may not apply at all in
a different historical period."

That was interesting. What that really said was that concepts of "crime" are
not eternal. The very nature of crime is sociopsychological and defined by
time and place and those who have the power to make definitions.
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"The language of the prevailing Law and Order, validated by the courts and
by the police, is not only the voice but also the deed of suppression. This
language not only defines and condemns the Enemy, it also creates him; and
this creation is not the Enemy as he really is but rather as he must be in
order to perform his function for the Establishment..."
-Herbert Marcuse
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Hence the power to define is an awesome power. It is the power of
propaganda. It is the ability to manipulate our ideas, to limit our agenda,
to mold how we see, and to shape what we look at. It is the power to
interpret the picture we see when we look at the world �

It is the power to place the picture we see when we look at the world. It is
the power to place a frame around the picture, to define where it begins and
ends. It is, in fact, the power to define where our vision begins and ends,
the power to create our collective consciousness.

That kind of social propaganda is not only tremendously powerful, but it is
also mostly invisible.
{We can't fight what we don't see. Most people accept the images and
definitions that we have been taught as true, neutral, self-evident, and for
always.}
The power to paint the future, to define what is right and wrong, what is
lawful and what is criminal, is really the power to win the battle for our
minds.
{And to win it without ever having to fight it. Simply said, it is hard to
fight an enemy who has an outpost in our minds.}
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Since 1977, when California had 19,000 inmates in its prison system, the
California Legislature has passed more than 1,000 bills lengthening
sentences or defining new crimes, often in response to high-profile
offenders such as Davis. The result has been a more-than-sixfold increase to
today's population of 126,000. Between 1852 and 1984, California built 12
prisons. Since just 1984, California has constructed an additional 16
prisons.

But during the decade and a half that imprisonment was soaring, the crime
rate in California has stubbornly refused to budge, hovering today at
approximately the 1977 rate. Indeed, during 1993 and the first half of 1994,
the rate of both violent and property crime actually fell while public fear
of crime inexplicably rose.

A study by the Center for Media and Public Affairs in Washington, D.C.,
suggests one possible reason for such a paradox. The study shows that, while
the murder rate nationally remained stable between 1992 and 1993, the number
of homicides reported on the evening news of the nation's three major
networks tripled. Not surprisingly, the report continues, from May 1992 to
February 1993, there was a sixfold increase in the number of Americans who
rated crime as the country's most important problem.

-Three Strikes
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The Social Dynamics of Crime

In the March 12, 1993, issue of the Wall Street Journal an article entitled
"Common Criminals-Just About Everyone Violates Some Laws, Even Model
Citizens," byline by Stephen J. Adler and Wade Lambert stated:
"We are a nation of lawbreakers. We exaggerate tax-deductible expenses, lie
to customs officials, bet on card games and sports events, disregard jury
notices, drive while intoxicated --and hire illegal childcare workers."

The last of these was recently the crime of the moment, and Janet Reno
wouldn't have been in the position to be confirmed unanimously as attorney
general yesterday if Zoe Baird had obeyed the much-flouted immigration and
tax laws.
But the crime of the moment could have been something else, and next time
probably will be.

This is because nearly all people violate some laws, and many people run
afoul of dozens without ever being considered, or considering themselves,
criminals.
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An estimated 1,585,400 persons were incarcerated in the United States in
1995. Correctional authorities held in the Nation's prisons and jails 600
persons per 100,000 U.S. residents.
Prisoners in the custody of the 50 States, the District of Columbia, and the
Federal Government accounted for two-thirds of the incarcerated population
(1,078,357 inmates). The other third was held in local jails (507,044
inmates).
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In America, in the l990s, as was the case in England in the 1800s, it is a
crime to be poor. The poorer you are, the more criminal you are. If you are
so poor that you have no place to live, and you live on the pavement or
sleep in a car or in a park, you have committed a crime. It's against the
law to sleep on the streets or in a park. If we have no home, it's against
the law to sleep anywhere.

The Prison-Industrial Complex

Crime is big Business

The political decisions of the bankers are decisions about who will be poor.
Corporate decisions made in the late '50s to remove industry from
communities of color were about who would be unemployed. Decisions by
developers and bankers about redevelopment (redlining and gentrification)
are decisions about who will be homeless. Such decisions affect everyone,
but people have no say in the matter. Generally people, especially the poor,
have no say in most social and economic decisions that affect their lives.
Somehow that is not part of the democratic method of government, and because
people have no say in the process, creating homelessness is not criminal,
but being homeless is.
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"Membership in the class of people known as 'law-breakers' is not
distributed according to economic or social status, but membership in the
class 'criminals' is distributed according to social or economic status..."
- Professor Theodore Sarbin
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Hunger and homelessness are deliberately imposed socioeconomic conditions of
the disenfranchised large numbers of the American population. This is
especially significant when consideration is given to the method and means
by which the malfeasance of the powers that be operate to ensure that such
conditions stay the same. Thus such pathology ensures the rich get richer,
while the poor get prison and early death.
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   * Since 1985 the total number of inmates in the custody of State
     and Federal prisons and local jails has more than doubled to
     nearly 1.6 million -- an increase of 113%.
   * * On average, the incarcerated population has grown 7.9% annually
     since 1985. The State and Federal prison population has grown
     8.3% annually, while the local jail population has grown 7.0%.
   * * Over the 10-year period correctional authorities have found
     beds for nearly 841,200 additional inmates or the equivalent of
     almost 1,618 inmates per week.
   * * At yearend 1985, 1 in every 320 United States residents were
     incarcerated. By yearend 1995 that ratio had increased to 1 in
     every 167.

-PIAP
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Max Weber held that social stratification depends on the distribution of
three resources: wealth (economic resources), power (political resources),
and prestige (social resources).

We are able to determine the social and racial implications of certain
classes, then, having a vested interest in crime. It can be argued that
because an elite class of criminals is in charge, they commit capital
crimes, crimes against society and humanity. The jails are overflowing, but
that doesn't seem to help --because the real criminals aren't in jail.
They're in the board rooms and in the White House. They are the social
policy makers that run this country. And today, they are increasing social
repression by building more prisons, creating harsher legal sanctions (i.e.
52 death penalty laws, three strikes you're out), and becoming ever more
heedless to the social implications of poverty as an impetus to committing
crime.

Under their misleadership, over five million people are homeless, 37 million
have no health insurance, 30 million are illiterate, 30 million more are
functionally illiterate, one million are incarcerated, and 60 million live
in poverty and are struggling day to day.

Crime is big business in America. Annually the laws are changed to ensure
profitability in the industry of crime. Social conditions that serve to
maintain levels of poverty, feed the industry of crime, also put stress on
the social stratification's of society.
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Within the current processes of economic globalization, the establishment of
the Joint Venture Program has opened California prisoners to be used as a
new labor supply and to be manipulated within the world economy to meet the
interests of transnational corporations. Within the global economy, the
United States is becoming an increasingly service-based economy, and many of
the manufacturing and textile jobs prisoners are supposedly being trained
for don't even exist here anymore. Economic globalization has completely
altered the relationship between capital and labor that existed within the
economy of this capitalist nation-state, where massive increases in
incarceration directed at working-class communities and communities of color
would formerly have interfered with the interest of many corporations by
diminishing the labor pool. The hypermobility of capital has created an
economic setting that allows for mass incarceration, because there is no
longer a strong economic need for a large, free, unskilled, unemployed
population of workers in this country. [27] Capital can easily expand its
supply of labor to include any exploitable population of workers throughout
the world, including incarcerated workers.

The Labor of Doing Time
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Given the fact that America is a nation of criminals as elucidated in the
Wall Street Journal article, social conflict is inevitable. It then becomes
a matter of identifying the real culprits of crime, and seeking the means to
have them become accountable for their criminal behavior. This may very well
include the redistribution of their wealth, and the reorganization of the
social contract between the government and the governed.

In response to the stratification outlined above, it requires revolutionary
nationalist and socialist efforts to formulate a national political agenda
and policy that will challenge the prevailing social contract between the
oppressed and the oppressor nation. This means revolutionary nationalists
and socialists must have a clear and concise mass-line and political program
that identifies and explains the nature of poor peoples' oppression, and how
they are to be organized to confront their oppression.
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"There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: 'Death to Tyrants!'"
-Timothy C. May
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                                 M$ Cowboy

[Estevan Mercury, Oct 22, 1997] It's just like advancing to the NHL of the
computer world.
That was the comparison used by Jeff Sandquist to describe his new job with
Microsoft, one of the giants of the computer industry, right in their
Redmond, Washington campus headquarters.

Sandquist will be leaving his position at SRI Homes (Shelter-Regent
Industries) where he has been a design technologist for the past four years,
and will hook up with like-minded individuals in Redmond to serve big
industry.

"I guess I am now a developer support engineer," he said with a chuckle.
"I wanted this job because I get to work with cool stuff a year before the
public gets to see it." Sandquist said with another laugh.
He said one of his teammates is the author of the Inside Active Server
Pages, one of the more recent bibles of computerdom. Sandquist explained
that active server technology is relatively new to industry and the public.

"I can't believe I'm getting this shot," he said.

Sandquist starts work at Microsoft on November 3. He'll believe it then.

                        (by NORM PARK of The Mercury)
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CJ brought Shelter into the 'Wonderful World of Computers' but he did it in
Xenix, not in DOS. DOS is a nice, simple computer operating system that will
work fairly well for the uninitiated without giving them a lot of grief.
It's fairly primitive, but one can do a tolerably decent job of conducting
their affairs in bits and bytes without having to worry about the dark side
of their new hi-tech/toy-nology.
-Excerpt from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
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Subject: Sloppy Chips from Intel
From: Eric Cordian <emc at wire.insync.net>
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net

By now everyone has probably heard that Intel Pentium and Pentium MMX chips
hang when executing the instruction sequence F00FC7C8 even when in an outer
ring of privilege or in V86 mode.

With numerous small Linux-based ISPs out there, often providing shell
services to anonymous customers, or serving customer-provided CGI programs,
the existence and public disclosure such an easily exploitable flaw in their
CPU's hardware protection mechanism is catastrophic.
�
While today's problem does not permit clandestine entry into a system, since
it kills the system when it is exercised, it does raise the question of
whether there are other more subtle problems in the hardware protection
mechanism, which might enable knowledgeable users to execute an occasional
instruction at the wrong privilege level, or otherwise do things which
should be prohibited according to the published hardware specifications.
�
Buggy microprocessor microcode can produce very subtle exploitable faults in
a chip, which are almost impossible to notice when running ordinary
applications and operating systems. Instructions may do the wrong thing only
when they follow certain other instructions. There may be rare times when
the processor is wrongly interruptible, or when a restricted instruction is
not forbidden, or is given access at the wrong privilege level, or with
incorrect address translation.

Were such features to be deliberately introduced into a chip, in order to
permit a backdoor for undetected entry, they could be made completely
undetectable, and could depend upon any number of unlikely conditions, or
even specific hidden register values, in order to be made manifest. Every
microprocessor could even have its own "key" for the activation of such
"special features."

Unlike UNIX, for which complete compileable source code is available, we
know little about what microcode is run through the several million
transistors on a typical microprocessor. If sloppy engineering alone
produces such dangerous faults, imagine what could happen should industry
decide to deliberately cooperate with various LEAs and TLAs. (In the
national interest, of course.)

The possibilities are truly mind-boggling. Perhaps exploits like tapping
Aldrich Ames' PC and crashing Saddam Hussein's PCs en masse were not done by
black bag jobs and viri, but by the activation of "National Security"
backdoors present in all complex modern microprocessors.

   * Eric Michael Cordian 0+
     O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
     "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

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"I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build
rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy
anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive., and tell you that you are free"

-Eris, Goddess Of Chaos, Discord & Confusion
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Subject:
From: Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org>
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net

In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:

main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}

-f00fie
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Subject: pentium bug/microprocessor design
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri at netcom.com>
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net

For those of you who don't know, there's actually a minor crisis brewing in
chip design.

The crisis is that because of the enormous increasing complexity of
individual chips, it's becoming statistically impossible to completely test
them.

There are new schemes in the works by which Intel etc. are trying to deal
with this, including a remarkable scheme in which new microcode can be
downloaded to the chip. it also involves encryption in which one needs to
know the encryption mechanism for the chip to accept the new instructions.
apparently it's done in such a way that no one except those who know the
encryption can successfully alter the chip.

But this does raise a lot of cypherpunks issues such as about reverse
engineering etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: A.Word.A.Day - vomitorium
From: Wordsmith <wsmith at wordsmith.org>
To: linguaphile at wordsmith.org

vo.mi.to.ri.um n. A passage or opening in an ancient amphitheatre or
theatre, leading to or from the seats. Usu. pl.

1754 Dictionary of Arts & Sciences. I. 129/2
"They were entered by avenues, at the end of which were gates, called
vomitoria."
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"Programmers are the unifying force that supply the energy enabling two
separate and unique components, hardware and software, to have a
relationship that is capable of productivity and growth. A marriage of
matter that could spawn and produce a multitude of children to go forth and
do many new things in the world, for better or worse, for good or for evil."

"You are society's last hope for thwarting the Forces of Evil gearing up for
the final battle, readying themselves to wreak grievous havoc upon the
world, such that it has never known. It is up to you to 'raise the torch,'
and let the 'light of knowledge' spread throughout the civilized world, in
the thread of 'clues' scattered throughout the UNIX operating system, and
throughout your programming and your instructions."

"You must band together, man and woman, young and old, into a 'Magic Circle'
for your own protection from the Forces of Darkness! You must develop your
own secret codes and rituals to deal with the Evil Forces which will beset
you daily once you set foot on the Path of Righteousness."
-Bubba Rom Dos
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97

WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE? - sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
"a billionaire to be named later."
�

"We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassel-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and off."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Estevan Mercury, Oct 22, 1997] �
Sandquist will be leaving his position at SRI Homes (Shelter-Regent
Industries) where he has been a design technologist for the past four years,
and will hook up with like-minded individuals in Redmond to serve big
industry.
�

He said one of his teammates is the author of the Inside Active Server
Pages, one of the more recent bibles of computerdom. Sandquist explained
that active server technology is relatively new to industry and the public.

"I can't believe I'm getting this shot," he said.
�
"I can't believe I'm getting this shot," he said.
�
"I can't believe I'm getting this SHOT," he said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: A.Word.A.Day - vomitorium
From: Wordsmith <wsmith at wordsmith.org>
To: linguaphile at wordsmith.org

vo.mi.to.ri.um n. A passage or opening in an ancient amphitheatre or
theatre, leading to or from the seats. Usu. pl.

1754 Dictionary of Arts & Sciences. I. 129/2
"They were entered by avenues, at the end of which were GATES, called
vomitoria."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again the Forces of Good have been forced underground, faced with
incredulity and disbelief when they try to reveal to mankind that the Evil
One is once again afoot in the land, making His plans for the Final Battle.
The 'Circle of Eunuchs' find themselves working feverishly to rebuild a
silent underground dedicated to enlightening those few that are willing to
listen to the Whisper of Light that is being overwhelmed by the Roar of
Darkness.
~son of gomez
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"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for good
and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by its
nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who deem
only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

   * Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin at shore.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the Circle of Eunuchs discover themselves locked in a covert battle with
Forces that have railed against mankind for Millenniums, facing the
disbelief and terror of others in their efforts to enlighten mankind about
the Evil Forces once again massing throughout the world in a chilling
endeavor to bring us to our ultimate destruction.

While we sleep our way through our daily lives, in unawareness, the Movement
is spreading through Secret Circles spanning the face of the globe, helping
to prepare mankind for the Final Battle.
~son of gomez
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                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------








From gs at dev.null  Tue Nov 11 04:40:49 1997
From: gs at dev.null (George Spelvin)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:40:49 +0800
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 9 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <34684D9A.1F02@dev.null>

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From 34972880 at html.com  Tue Nov 11 21:09:47 1997
From: 34972880 at html.com (34972880 at html.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:09:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Your Christmas money is on its way!
Message-ID: <236587456982.GAA48925@vitssertas.com>



Dear online friend, 

I have received this LETTER at least three times in the last 2 months, 
so I gave in and said "Well, lets see if it really works".  To keep a 
long story short,  I have received over $12,000 in cash in less than 4 
weeks. I am now and forever a true believer of this money making 
concept. 
"What an Amazing Machine the computer is!".

John B,   Blue Wind Resources,  Iowa 
************************************************************************

You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 day's. Read the 
enclosed program:  THEN READ IT AGAIN!

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers. Fortunately,  sometime later I re-read everything and gave some 
thought and study to it.

My name is Chris Eckerson. Two years ago, the corporation where I had 
worked twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After 
unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the 
past years, I encountered many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my 
family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a 
toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to 
refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling 
business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.

AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am 
writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life 
financially......FOREVER!

In mid-March, I received this program via email. For six months (prior 
to receiving this program) I had been sending away for information on 
various business opportunities but the programs I received were not, in 
my opinion, cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to 
comprehend or the initial investment was too much of a risk to see if 
they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one 
year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it. 

So, as I was saying, in March I received this program. I didn't send for 
it nor ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK 
GOODNESS FOR THAT!  After reading it several times to make sure I was 
reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-
MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without 
putting myself further in debt. After I got a pencil and figured it out, 
I knew that in the WORST possible case I would still get my money back.  
After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I 
decided.....why not?

Initially, I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15.00 for my 
time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I didn't need any 
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fill my 
orders. I am telling you like it is and I hope it doesn't turn you off,  
but I promised myself that I would not  "rip anyone off" no matter how 
much money it cost me!

In less than one week, I started to receive orders for REPORT #1.  By 
April 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the 
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE 
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!  My first step in making  $50,000 in 20 to 90 
days was done. By April 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  
If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS 
FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL 
YOU DO." Once you have 100 orders, THE REST IS EASY! Relax, YOU WILL 
MAKE YOUR  $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2:  96 more 
than I needed!  So I sat back and relaxed....

By March 19th, I had received $58,000 with more coming in everyday!  I paid off ALL my debts 
and bought a much needed new car. 

PLEASE!  Take time to read the attached program;  IT WILL CHANGE YOUR 
LIFE FOREVER!  Remember,  it won't work if you don't try it.  This 
program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules 
of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work 
and you'll lose out on a lot of money.  REPORT #2 explains this.  Always 
follow the guarantee of 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or more 
orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 
days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really 
is great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to 
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial  
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like 
I was, or if you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  
I DID!

Sincerely,
Chris Eckerson

P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700   $5 bills ($58,500) looks like 
piled up on a kitchen table?   IT'S AWESOME!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"THREW IT AWAY"
"I received this program before . I threw it away, but later wondered if 
I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course I had no idea who to contact 
to get a copy so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another copy of the 
program.  Eleven months passed before it came. I DIDN'T throw this one 
away and I made $41,000 on the first try.
Dawn W., Evansville, IN
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, "Remember Alan, there is no free lunch 
in life. You get out of life what you put into it. ' Through trial and 
error and a somewhat slow and frustrating start, I finally figured it 
out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target 
group of people to e-mail it to. So far this year, I have made over 
$63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of 
me."
Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
------------------------------------------------------------------------

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM.
By the time you've read the enclosed information and looked over the 
program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program...and 
one that is legal, could have been created by an amateur.

Let me tell a little about myself. I had a profitable business for ten 
years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same 
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. 
Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation 
and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us 
since 1945. I don't have  to tell you what happened to the unemployment 
rate....many of you know from first hand experience. There were more 
failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing 
invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who 
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down the ranks of the 
poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND POOR GET POORER". The 
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up"  
or "get rich". Inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom 
for the rest of your life. With no risk and just a little bit of effort 
you can make more money in the next few months than you have ever 
imagined.

Let me also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor 
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have 
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program 
after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which 
market this and several other programs here in the U.S. and overseas. By 
early spring, we hope to be marketing the internet via a partnership 
with America On Line.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in anyway; it 
works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this 
exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people 
you send this to may send out 50,000 and your name will be on everyone 
of them! Remember, the more you send out, the more potential customers 
you will reach.

So, my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent.  NOW IT IS UP TO YOU!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take 
a little time to read it and THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out 
what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible 
response and no matter how you calculate, you will still make a lot of 
money! You'll definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have 
will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU MONEY
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and 
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. 
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good 
list the response could be much better.

Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead 
of 2,000. To continue with this example, you've sent out 2,000 programs; 
with a .5% response that is only 10 orders for report #1. Those 10 
people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. 
One half of one percent (.5%, or 100 people) respond and order REPORT 
#2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 
.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Finally, those 1,000 
send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to 
that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for 
you....CASH!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + 
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL
TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR 
A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR EVEN JUST HALF SENT OUT 
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000? Believe me, many people will do 
that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this was 
practically nothing. You obviously already have an Internet connection 
and e-mail is FREE!  REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk 
e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you 
to come into contact with people,  do any hard work, and best of all  
you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe 
that someday you'll get the big break that you've been waiting for THIS 
IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions and your dreams will come true. 
This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly 100% 
EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of 
this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!. The longer you wait, 
the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of 
this action!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is 
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research 
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 60% of all 
goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid 
to late 1990's. This is Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 
millionaires in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last 
several years in MLM's. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become 
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS
We at Ferris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising 
capitol that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use 
$50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "BULL", 
please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making 
opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level 
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling 
our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. 
ORDERS ARE PLACED AND FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL,  so you are not involved 
in personal selling. You do it privately, in your own home,  store or 
office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

STEP 1:  Order all 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by 
ordering the REPORT from each of the four names listed on the next page. 
For each REPORT, send  $5 CASH, (US DOLLAR) and a SELF-ADDRESSED, 
STAMPED envelope (Business size #10) to the person listed for the 
SPECIFIC REPORT. Print the  4 report sections and simply clip & INCLUDE 
the printed clip with the appropriate order. (no mix-ups that way) 
International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is 
essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested 
to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS 
because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.  DO NOT alter the 
names or sequence other than what the instructions say.  
**IMPORTANT!  Always provide same-day service on all orders!**

STEP 2:  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving 
the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address 
under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,  moving that one that was under there to 
REPORT #4.  The name and address that were under REPORT #4 is dropped 
from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When 
doing this, make certain you type the NAMES AND ADDRESSES CORRECTLY! DO 
NOT MIX UP or MOVE PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!

STEP 3:  Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a 
text ( .txt ) file in its own directory to be used with what ever e-mail 
program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of 
bulk e-mailing and acquiring email lists.

STEP 4:  E-mail a copy of the entire program  (all of this is very 
important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start 
with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take 
advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. (That's what I did 
and they love me more now than ever).

STEP 5:  E-mail to anybody and everyone! Use your imagination! You can 
get e-mail addresses from companies on the Internet who specialize in e-
mail mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around 
$35 dollars.  IMPORTANT: You wont get a good response if you use an old 
list, so always request a FRESH,  NEW list. You will find out where to 
purchase these lists when you order the third REPORT.

STEP 6:  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

REQUIRED REPORTS
***ORDER each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
ALWAYS SEND SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH
ORDER.  Print the following 4 report sections and simply clip & INCLUDE 
each clip with the appropriate order. (no mix-ups that way)
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
REPORT #1  "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
       BIC
       P.O. Box 1393
       Newtown, PA  18940
       USA
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
REPORT #2  "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
       K C Lambeth
      115-1 WILLOW TRACE 
      CLEMMONS NC 27012-8815
      USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
REPORT #3  "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" 
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
      KD Conrad
      73 LINCOLN AVE
      STAMFORD CT  06902-4102
      USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
REPORT #4  "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" 
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
      BWR377
      POBOX 15552
      WINSTON SALEM NC 27113-0552
      USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
REMEMBER:
ALWAYS SEND SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH
ORDER.  Print the above 4 report sections and simply clip & INCLUDE 
each clip with the appropriate order. (no mix-ups that way)
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying the fortune that I have made by sending out this program. 
You too will be making money in 20 to 90 days if you follow the SIMPLE 
STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial 
decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, 
retire or take a vacation.   A lack of money hold you back. 

Very few people reach financial independence however, because when 
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say 
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU 
ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you 
do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. 
Please re-read this material! This is a special opportunity. If you have 
any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this 
information. You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that 
cost me pennies to produce and e-mail. I should also point out that this 
program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is 
not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received 
chain letters, asking to send money on faith, but getting NOTHING in 
return, NO product whatsoever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but 
the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they 
purchase the products from you, they reproduce and resell them. It's 
simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the 
PRODUCT is a series of four FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The 
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making 
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to 
you in any other business decision you make in the years ahead. You are 
also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORT, which will be 
ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one 
and two page REPORTS you are buying can easily be reproduced at a local 
copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with program 
and good luck!

"Not being a gambling type, it took me several weeks to make my mind to 
participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that 
the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could 
not get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever 
surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with 
orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life."
Mary Riceland, Lancing, MI
------------------------------------------------------------------------

TIPS FOR SUCCESS
Send for your four REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the 
orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out 
the product/service to comply with US POSTAL and LOTTERY laws. Title 18 
Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE 
MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED." 

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
2. Get a post office box (preferred).
3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. Remember, your name and 
Address go next to report #1 and the others all move down one, with the 
Fourth one being bumped off the list.
4. Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you receive 
The information on mailing list companies in report #3.
5. Decide 0n the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you 
Send out & the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.
6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders. Copy the 
Four reports so you can send them out as soon as you receive an order. 
Important: always provide same-day service on orders you receive!
7. Make sure the letters & reports are neat and legible.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

YOUR GUARANTEE
The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  You must 
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must! If you don't 
within two weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do. Then, a couple 
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for report #2.  If 
you don't, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 
100 or more orders for REPORT #2 (Take a deep breath) you can sit back 
and relax, YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is 
a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and 
reached the above GOALS, ALL have reached their $50,000 GUARANTEE. Also 
remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front 
of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing 
what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY! REALLY!

REMEMBER:  "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING"
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE 
REST OF YOUR LIFE."

<FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3>







From lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de  Tue Nov 11 05:30:39 1997
From: lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:30:39 +0800
Subject: Profile of a Spammer, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b08cf87d482b@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <slrn66gn2u.t1.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>



* Declan McCullagh wrote:
>   removes e-mail addresses with more than 30 characters "because they
>   upload so slow, and in this business speed is everything."

Ever tried http://www.iks-jena.de/mitarb/lutz/usenet/teergrube.en.html?
Daily statistics at news://news.thur.de/thur.net.admin






From jk at stallion.ee  Tue Nov 11 06:13:26 1997
From: jk at stallion.ee (Jyri Kaljundi)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:13:26 +0800
Subject: Australian banks using uncracakble IDEA!
In-Reply-To: <312e1ae944182fdff692ebfb31299567@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971111160220.18498b-100000@nebula>



On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> (Those Australian banks that offer Web banking sites do, in fact,
> use a strong form of cryptography known as IDEA, which is thought
> to be effectively uncrackable.) 

Are there any numbers available about different countries that have web
banking services, how many banks there are in each country, how many
people are using the services, and may be a URL of the bank. If you know
this kind of data, please mail it to me, when I put together the list I
will make a summary of it.

Like in Estonia 3 banks of 11 have Internet banking services available, at
least the same amount will follow soon, and about 1% of country's
population is using Internet banking services. 

Jyri Kaljundi
jk at stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/







From sunder at brainlink.com  Tue Nov 11 07:20:21 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:20:21 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971108134328.9114I-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971111100836.20764H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>



On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, [iso-latin-de] Heinz-J�rgen Keller wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> The german Chaos Computer Club distributes a Dos/Win binary (f00fc7c8.com,
> 5 Bytes :-) ) and a linux version.
> Have a look at http://www.ccc.de .

So has anyone yet developed an ActiveX component of this? :) Heheheh...
come to my site and watch your pentium crash. Heheheheheh!

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From ryan at michonline.com  Tue Nov 11 08:13:19 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:13:19 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <2278.9711111011@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971111110228.19211D-100000@king>



On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk wrote:

> Leaving aside the problem with a system where a judge can overturn the 
> decision of a Jury (I have not seen all of the evidence so have no idea
> if she is guilty or innocent but if you enter a country you implicitly
> agree to abide by their laws and legal system, however what is the point
> of having a Jury if the Judge can do this sort of thing?) then the actual

My understanding of the system used in Massachusets is that the judge in a
trial there can overturn a conviction.  the judge can't overturn an
aquittal.

This is good for the defendent.  It's one more way to be freed.  

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From freedoment at ultramax.net  Wed Nov 12 00:36:10 1997
From: freedoment at ultramax.net (freedoment at ultramax.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:36:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dont feed the Fat man.
Message-ID: <199711120836.AAA17466@toad.com>


We will recover the last 3 years of Taxes ( state and federal )

Non-confrontational
100% success rate
No repercussions

As long as you put food in front of a Fat mans face he will eat
and eat.....and eat ........and eat,............... until he explodes!!
Our government now has a  5.4 Trillion dollar debt  !!!!
Your share is $20,000

Why would you keep feeding our Bloated Federal government
when you don't need to ---- unless you volunteered ????

Learn the truth about your income tax liability and where your
money goes !!!

Reply with "TAX" in the subject and include your address 
or call   1- 888- 820-1726 
we will mail a 23 page document that explains how this is
accomplished. 

If you have problems with the IRS, we'll get em off your back!

Thank you,
Freedom Enterprises
PS
We are not a "tax protest" group. We believe you should pay 
every cent of tax you legally owe.
**************************************************************************
If you are offended by this message please let us know so that
 we can remove you from our lists - our apologies. 
You may also want to join:  http://www:iemmc.org/
***************************************************************************






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Tue Nov 11 08:37:59 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:37:59 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <97Nov11.112515est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Mix wrote:

> Adam Back wrote:
> >Monty Cantsin writes:
> >> The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
> >> odd.  
> >
> >I had a go at doing something with it (I'll let you know when I get
> >it to work) -- I had the damnest job figuring out what was going on.
> >The problem I found with understanding it were all of the nested
> >functions called through vectors of functions and handler functions.
> >Makes it hard to inspect what will happen without running the code
> >under a debugger -- lots control flow is decided at run time.
> 
> So in other words, even though we have the source code we don't really
> have confidence that we can tell what it is doing.

There were only a few obscure points.  Most of it can be determined from
hex dumps of the files produced.  I had public key management before I saw
the source code.  Since I have a version that does not use any PGP source,
but PGP 5.x interoperates fully, I think I can tell precisely what it is
doing.

> Even though the source code is available, I don't think it has been
> studied all that carefully.  For example, hardly anybody knew that the
> PGP 5.0 source had CAK features lurking in it.  Or, remember that bug
> with the random number generator?  As I recall (i.e., feel free to
> correct me), it was in Colin Plumb's code and he found it himself.
> This would imply that it got by whoever went over the code when it was
> released.  Not reassuring.

There is that section for CAK in a future expansion note in Vol. 1 of the
source.  There is probably a note in the CP archives I posted eons ago,
long before the 5.5 controversy spawned all the traffic about CAK.  It was
near the new passphrase hash which was one thing I could not figure out
without the source. 

> C is a big part of the problem.  Also, PGP was originally designed to
> operate on some fairly slow machines and they tried very hard to
> optimize the hell out of it.  Now, however, cycles are a lot cheaper.
> I think we should give up speed for clarity.  Slow code that we can
> really trust is better.

C is not part of the problem, people who aren't good at abstraction are.
It would look even more horrid in modula-2(3?).  If you have something go
through three layers instead of one, it will be more complicated, for
instance I did something more like:

*hashstart[]() = {md5start,sha1start,ripemd160start};

instead of the layering.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Tue Nov 11 08:39:26 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:39:26 +0800
Subject: Source code obfuscation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028165130.13198F-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <97Nov11.112812est.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> 
> Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to 
> obscure source code so that it builds, but no longer
> contains comments or useful variable or procedure
> names?
> 
> Thanks,
> -- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
> 

Gimpel Software makes C-Shroud (commercial).  They also have a very good
Lint utility.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Tue Nov 11 08:47:14 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:47:14 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b085831fd8a7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Nov11.113405est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> >So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
> >pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
> 
> There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
> forms.
> 
> (I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
> of truth.)

> Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
> withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
> kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.

I believe in separation of church and state.  The state must get out of
things like education and welfare (charity) and other things that are not
their responsibility.

The mistake was when the courts ruled that prayer could not occur in
public (government) schools.  The very next day, every government school
should have been closed down (this would also have shown the court that it
should be careful with its rulings).  And society would not have
experienced as much decay as it has. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From emc at wire.insync.net  Tue Nov 11 08:53:43 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:53:43 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>



RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Ruling that the right to a free press doesn't
cover a how-to-kill book, a federal appeals panel said the families
of a hired killer's victims may sue the publisher of a book that he
consulted.
 
A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied
First Amendment protection to ``Hit Man: A Technical Manual for
Independent Contractors,'' saying publisher Paladin Press knew it
would be used by murderers.
 
``The Supreme Court has never protected as abstract advocacy speech so
explicit in its palpable entreaties to violent crime,'' the panel
said in its ruling Monday.
 
The book was sold to James Edward Perry, who was convicted of killing
Mildred Horn; her disabled 8-year-old son, Trevor; and the son's
nurse, Janice Saunders, in Silver Spring, Md., in 1993. The women were
shot between the eyes and the boy's respirator was unplugged.
 
Perry is on death row for the murders, and Lawrence T. Horn, Mrs.
Horn's former husband, was sentenced to life in prison for hiring
Perry. Horn's motive was to collect $1.7 million from a malpractice
settlement that his son Trevor won from a hospital after the accident
that left him a quadriplegic.
 
Paladin has never challenged Perry's claim that he followed some of
the 130-page paperback's advice.
 
``This decision says that if you're in the business of helping
instruct murderers on how to slaughter innocent women and children,
you aren't going to find any shelter in the First Amendment,'' said
Howard Siegel, an attorney for the families.
 
Paladin Press, based in Boulder, Colo., plans to ask the full 4th
Circuit to review the panel's decision and will seek a Supreme Court
review if necessary, said Lee Levine, the publisher's attorney.
 
The appeals court ''did not sufficiently take into account the First
Amendment implications of holding the publisher of a book legally
responsible for actions of someone reading the book,'' Levine said.
 
The lawsuit was supported by victim rights groups, while The
Washington Post Co., The New York Times Co. and other media
organizations filed briefs supporting Paladin's position.
 
In 1996, U.S. District Judge Alexander Williams ruled that the
victims' families could not hold Paladin liable because of the First
Amendment's guarantee of free speech.
 
The appeals panel sent the case back to Williams for trial.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 






From privuser at 15058.com  Wed Nov 12 01:27:56 1997
From: privuser at 15058.com (privuser at 15058.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:27:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: how's it going?
Message-ID: <31IPS2M13023A2WVZ@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET>


Would you be interested in...

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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 11 09:29:34 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:29:34 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <v03102808b08e34db5a2d@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:42 AM -0700 11/11/97, Eric Cordian wrote:
>RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Ruling that the right to a free press doesn't
>cover a how-to-kill book, a federal appeals panel said the families
>of a hired killer's victims may sue the publisher of a book that he
>consulted.
>
>A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied
>First Amendment protection to ``Hit Man: A Technical Manual for
>Independent Contractors,'' saying publisher Paladin Press knew it
>would be used by murderers.
>
>``The Supreme Court has never protected as abstract advocacy speech so
>explicit in its palpable entreaties to violent crime,'' the panel
>said in its ruling Monday.
>
>The book was sold to James Edward Perry, who was convicted of killing
>Mildred Horn; her disabled 8-year-old son, Trevor; and the son's
>nurse, Janice Saunders, in Silver Spring, Md., in 1993. The women were
>shot between the eyes and the boy's respirator was unplugged.

Having skimmed the "Hit Man" book, I can tell you it conveyed no unique
information about how to shoot someone between the eyes and unplug a
respirator.

If this Paladin case is not overturned, it will mean the "death through
lawsuits" of nearly all publishers of even slightly controversial material.
Loompanics will go, Delta Press will go, etc. "Unintended Consequences"
will be withdrawn by the publisher and the author will be sued. "The Turner
Diaries" will become a contraband item.

And why not sue other publishers and bookstores? Maybe a book on abortions
helped a woman perform an illegal abortion. Maybe a book about fighting for
liberty provided "abstract advocacy speech so explicit in its palpable
entreaties to violent crime" (and so it is unprotected, according to the
courts).

But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.

The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From frantz at netcom.com  Tue Nov 11 09:30:26 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:30:26 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971108134328.9114I-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
Message-ID: <v0311070cb08e44e2fabc@[207.94.250.122]>



At 7:09 AM -0800 11/11/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, [iso-latin-de] Heinz-J�rgen Keller wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>
>> The german Chaos Computer Club distributes a Dos/Win binary (f00fc7c8.com,
>> 5 Bytes :-) ) and a linux version.
>> Have a look at http://www.ccc.de .
>
>So has anyone yet developed an ActiveX component of this? :) Heheheh...
>come to my site and watch your pentium crash. Heheheheheh!

I saw an announcement of an Internet Explorer V4 bug where URLs longer than
256 bytes could cause the browser to execute arbitrary machine code.....


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 11 09:39:04 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:39:04 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <199711111725.MAA01146@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711111642.KAA20562 at wire.insync.net>, on 11/11/97 
   at 10:42 AM, Eric Cordian <emc at wire.insync.net> said:

>RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Ruling that the right to a free press doesn't cover
>a how-to-kill book, a federal appeals panel said the families of a hired
>killer's victims may sue the publisher of a book that he consulted.

Well another example of the "domino theory" at work. :(

first the 10th fell
then the 9th fell
the 4th, 5th & 6th fell in rapid sucession after that
the 7th is gone as is the 8th

now the 1st.

Well we have the 3rd at least :) Not very practical in the moder era but
who know, when they finaly get around to dispatching the military to go
door to door to confiscate the guns then need to quarter them in
individule's homes will arise and then the 3rd will fall too.

God bless Amerika!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGiUjY9Co1n+aLhhAQFy3QP/amwFR+oDsDh32YFXfIzladweVCNlt/I+
3pI2Q4JlCfryriqBqmjy+aKVVIwd/ptXc6+I2iSFm1UGZSw8q9tdpH1stUM2Sh8j
yVf1CKCqngmpXuXPsWw7qoiBIFucakvdL3TwOCp+N3tjwcGXAAi72r7A/HKWmx+f
fD5knWzxM5g=
=+fSp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 11 10:20:40 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:20:40 +0800
Subject: IE4 + FOOF = BWAHAHAHAH!
Message-ID: <v03110740b08e4fdbc47d@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:06:00 -0500
From: glen at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
To: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Cc: bostic at bsdi.com
Subject: New IE4 security hole discovered.
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:05:56 -0500
Sender: glen at shell.ncm.com
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2447
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request at substance.abuse.blackdown.org


what were the opcodes to hang a pentium again? -glen

Forwarded-by: "Per Hammer" <phammer at raleigh.ibm.com>

http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/8429.html

	A new security vulnerability uncovered in Microsoft
	Internet Explorer 4.0 will allegedly allow a malicious
	individual to write a line of HTML on a Web page that
	will execute native code on a user's machine. Such
	code could run, create, or delete a file - or do
	anything a user can do from sitting in front of his
	machine.

Uhm ... "Whops" ? Not that we needed an excuse not to run IE4 anyway, but
hopefully this will further deter the "large corporations", who according
to Microsoft wants to "run IE4 on all platforms" ...

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 11 10:24:01 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:24:01 +0800
Subject: Matters of Law
Message-ID: <v03102809b08e40f2313f@[207.167.93.63]>




Now that one level of the court system has ruled that the First Amendment
does not protect Paladin Press against a lawsuit over its sale of the book
"Hit Man," it may be timely to mention some of the issues.

It is often claimed (here, too) that "anyone may sue." This is true. Just
pay a filing fee, etc., and anyone can sue. Alice can sue Bob because he is
reading "War and Peace." I can sue Suzie because I didn't like the color of
the dress she wore. And so on, so the theory goes.

However, the court system need not let the suit proceed. Many (most?) filed
lawsuits are dismissed on "matters of law." Thus, Alice's lawsuit against
Bob over Bob's choice of reading materials would be thrown out.

(And the courts have even taken steps against those who have filed many
frivolous lawsuits with the apparent intent of harassment. )

It is in this sense that today's court decision allowing the suit against
Paladin to proceed is so pernicious. In a society where free speech and
free dissemination of ideas is protected by the First Amendment, a lawsuit
to stop others from reading or writing certain thoughts should be thrown
out immediately. On a "matter of law."

I'm not a lawyer, but my layman's understanding of "matter of law" is that
an act must have some element of illegality under the criminal code, or
under contract law, before a lawsuit can proceed. Thus, I cannot sue a
restaurant because it chooses not to serve my favorite food, nor can Alice
sue Bob over his choice of reading materials. Nor should anyone be allowed
to sue Paladin Press when no evidence of illegality has been shown (Paladin
was not implicated as a co-conspirator in the murder, and the book "Hit
Man" is not illegal to sell).

I expect the Paladin Press case will go to the Supreme Court now. I hope it
does, at least. And it'll be interesting to see if the ACLU supports a
politically incorrect case like this.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From burn81 at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 11 10:29:08 1997
From: burn81 at hotmail.com (burn81 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:29:08 +0800
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <3468A1E3.372CC4C9@hotmail.com>










From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Tue Nov 11 10:30:04 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:30:04 +0800
Subject: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971108233246.006dc0b0@ibcnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971109133212.1603A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> usually we ignore people at your level, but we'll try our best for you, as
> it might be just temorary insanity.

Anyone have the same suspicions as me as to who is marketing VME, I`ll 
guess trh same guy (his name escapes me for now) who spent a few weeks on 
the list earlier this year touting his unbreakable encryption scheme 
based on LCSRs.

> 2) VME flowchart, algorithms and the VME application itself is already in
> the hands of the large 250 sotware corporations for evaluation. If any of
> them will prove otherwise, then you might be able to jump and make an idiot
> of yourself as you did now.

Have they actually confirmed they are analyzing it, or have you just sent 
them the information.

> 4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
> around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

I`ll make you an offer, sue me for alleging fraud, I say you are a 
fraudulent cocksucker, and the email address on this is genuine, and I 
will, if you wish, allege fraud in a PGP signed mail. 

Ps. Are you fucking the guy who wrote the CMR code for PGP up the ass, or 
does your crypto experience not stretch even that far.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 11 10:34:24 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:34:24 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971102005347.006b8be4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971110125914.006e179c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>> My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
...
>Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
>this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows

Some of the free 5.0 versions can use RSA keys, and some can't.
Robert has the $5 RSA plugin, so his can.  The Eudora version can't,
and I think the MIT version can, or maybe it was the one on www.pgp.com.

By "can't", I mean that it not only won't let you generate RSA keys,
it also won't use existing RSA private keys from your old secring.pgp file;
I don't know if it can encrypt to other people's RSA public keys or not.

I found this very annoying a couple months ago when I was rebuilding my
PGP from backups after a disk crash :-)  The 5.0 version I'd been using
before the crash was happily using my RSA keys, and the brand new Eudora version
I used after the crash wouldn't take them, and wasn't very clear about why.
One of the local PGP folks told me there was a difference, and loading the right
version took care of the problem, and I don't remember encrypting to or
validating from any RSA keys in between.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov 11 10:35:02 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:35:02 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111182816.006cf7f4@pop.pipeline.com>



Tim May wrote:

>But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.

WSJ reports today on the increasing conservatism of the military and
disputes about the pretense of civilian control, with some officers calling
for responsible action to compensate for societal breakdown.

It cites several examples of military members preparing for war at home, 
as mentioned here earlier by Attila and others, with two Marine writers
claiming that the next Somolia will be here.

This, coupled with reports on LEA inheritance of military equipment and
lavish civilian funding to fight terrorism, portends more than Jim Bell 
(Tim May?) -type sniper takeouts.

Free fire zones may be in the offing, or surgical wasting of underground
bunkers and germmakers (troublemakers). Wrathful Mars sees no innocents, 
so preaches the terrorist freedom warfighters pursuing a dream of winner 
take all, so sorry constitutional fundies, we're the warmonger biz.







From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov 11 10:56:44 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:56:44 +0800
Subject: Senate Hearings on PCCIP
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111184335.009aa81c@pop.pipeline.com>



Thanks to Peter Neumann and David Wagner, we offer
a transcript of Senate hearings on PCCIP, including
statements on encryption:

   http://jya.com/pccip-hear.htm  (71K)






From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov 11 11:10:14 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:10:14 +0800
Subject: Matters of Law
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111190611.0097c150@pop.pipeline.com>



Tim May wrote:

>I expect the Paladin Press case will go to the Supreme Court now. I hope it
>does, at least. And it'll be interesting to see if the ACLU supports a
>politically incorrect case like this.

A reminder that the consitutional issues of "Hit Man" and similar cases 
are reviewed in the Department of Justice's April 1997 report to Congress, 

   "The Availability of Bombmaking Information, and the Extent to Which 
   Its Dissemination May Be Subject to Regulation Consistent with the 
   First Amendment to the United States Consitution":

   http://jya.com/abi.htm  (196K)






From andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu  Tue Nov 11 11:12:10 1997
From: andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu (Andy Dustman)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:12:10 +0800
Subject: Databasix conspiracy theories
In-Reply-To: <199711111830.TAA27254@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971111134448.8435V-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>



Note that these comments apply primarily to the cracker remailer. 

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Maybe the next time Gary, Linda, or Paul send a remailer operator a
> complaint, the operator will know what to expect next. 

I did get one complaint from Gary Burnore about stuff being sent directly
to him. He wasn't a jerk about it, and I haven't heard a peep out of him
since.

> thing that's not so random is the high percentage of words that are
> related to DataBasix, such as "DataBasix", "Burnore", and "Wotan".  I'm
> almost waiting for Gary Burnore to give the remailer and mail2news
> operators a "helpful" suggestion that they could curb most of this
> "abuse" by simply blocking any anonymous posts containing any of those
> three keywords. <g> Or perhaps he's done so and politely been turned
> down. 

He's never asked us, at least. Although, when spam-baiting started hot and
heavy this summer, another Databasix employee did suggest that his address
should not appear in posts. I made it quite clear we don't check for
specific names, words, or addresses, and that he was a legitimate topic of
discussion. Never heard back after that, and this was several months ago.

> Perhaps the next wave of attacks on remailers will not consist of
> attempts to shut them down altogether but to progressively cripple them
> by getting certain features disabled, one by one.  This seems to have
> already started.  The strategy seems to be to fabricate a form of
> "abuse", anonymously through remailers, for which the seemingly
> "logical" solution is to disable a certain feature.  This has already
> proven successful with header pasting, for example.  Now you can't post
> to Usenet and set the From: address to that of your own 'nym. 

If you really want the post to have the From: address of your nym, send
the post with your nym and not with the remailer as the last hop. The
point of anonymous remailers is to be anonymous. If you want to use a
psuedonym, use a nymserver.

>  I'm not even certain that you can set a Reply-To: address any more. 

You can at cracker. However, you can't post in From:, Sender:, Received:,
and a couple other "identifying" headers. 

>  If the "camel" can get his nose under the tent and convince operators
> to start filtering on the *CONTENT* of the Subject: line or body of
> usenet posts, the anti-privacy nuts will have scored a major victory. 
> In fact, from reading Jeff Burchell's posts, it looks like Gary and his
> DataBasux-ers had initially convinced Jeff to do exactly that.  But, in
> a symbolic victory for freedom of speech, he removed those filters for a
> week before he finally shut down Huge Cajones altogether. 

Cracker does have a spam-bait mangler which is somewhat simpler than the
scheme Jeff used. In a nutshell, if there are an inordinately large number
of addresses (compared to other text), the addresses are mangled, i.e.,
president at whitehouse.gov becomes president <AT> whitehouse <DOT> gov.
Still human-readable but useless for address harvesters. No posts get
dropped or filtered out under this scheme, and no keywords or particular
addresses are looked for.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<






From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Tue Nov 11 11:20:43 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:20:43 +0800
Subject: Mix talks about corporate gubmint by-ins
In-Reply-To: <199711110513.VAA13432@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971111115613.323B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



Sparticus wrote:
> 
> Corporate America Saves the IRS. What a headline. Corporate America wants the IRS to be
> able to survive to tax us all into oblivion, when what they ought to do is turn their
> backs on the IRS, walk away and let them fall in on themselves just like the Soviet Union did.
> If we're lucky, around December 31, 1999, the IRS will crash along with their computer systems.
> 
> Sparticus
> 
> 

I'm not sure that there is anything they can do about it anyway.  The
contract to fix the IRS's Y2K problem won't be awarded until October of
1998 (!!).  That leaves them 8 months until software oblivion to fix the
problem.  They have an estimated 60 to 80 million lines of code to fix and
test. (some of the code they don't have source code for, some of it is in
assembler) 

The Social Insecurity System started their fixes around 1992 and have
averaged (with 400 programmers) 1 millions lines of code debugged and
tested per year for Y2K. 

You do the math.

This wouldn't be a problem if the IRS was a self-contained entity, but we
all know that isn't true.  I've downloaded their request for prime
contractors to fix the thing.  It includes dataflow diagrams for most of
their *known* systems.  Using my PDF viewer I had to zoom 8 times (at
about 2-3x per zoom) to go from the total system view to the point where
individual systems began to resolve.

The interconnectivness between their systems is unbelievable.  From a
security standpoint that means that the weakest link in the chain
determines the viability of the whole system. 

And the IRS's accounting systems are tied into the accounting systems of
every major corporation in the US. 

The Fed, Wall Street, the US Government's Command & Control System and the
obiting GPS sattelite system all have the same problem.  (ohh...and I
forgot to mention the national railroad car routing system -- "where was
that wheat seed destined for?") 

The end result would be an interesting study in complexity and catastrophe
theory. 

For me, I will be on an extended fishing trip somewhere in the Rockies. 

If the system crashes then the joke will be on the megacorps that
volunteered to fix the thing.  All those US FRN electronic ledger entries
won't be worth the diskspace that holds them. 

Or so it would seem.  As the programmers who work on the system realize
that it will be impossible to fix the system, they will be buying hard
assets and leaving the Y2K project like rats from a sinking ship. 

The best thing that congress could do now is (1) chastise the agency for
alleged abuses and push for (2) a simpler tax code that doesn't
necessitate excessive bean counting for the populace and (3) eliminate the
"income" tax and replace it with a VAT tax or preferably (4) get the
several states to pony up a percentage of their sales taxes to the fed -
to be held in escrow every month by the states and forwarded unless the
state has a major gripe.  That would gets the feds attention real quick. 

It would seem they are implementing (1) and (2) already.  Could (3) and/or
(4) be coming?  I can't believe, giving the paranoia of the Feds, that
they are going to take the risk of letting the Y2K destabilize the entire
nation. 

Despite the fact that the people in charge piss me off sometimes I really
like the fact that 7-11's open every morning, that I can pick up a nice
greasy breakfast from Burger King if I wan't and that I can buy a new car
or fly to visit my family or place a long distance telephone call or buy a
new 9 gig HD for my Linux box or any of the 10 thousand cools things that
are available in civilization.

If any of the federal infrastructure protection specialists are listening
in on cypherpunks (and we know you are), then maybe you ought to pay some
real close attention to the things that are the most likely to bring about
TEOCAWKI (the end of civilization as we know it).  Y2K is much more of a
threat that the four horseman of the infocalypse. 

What really worries me is an idea I call "the population carrying capacity
of civilization".  With high technolgy in place the PCC is much greater
than with low technology.  I think thats obvious.  With so much of
civilization (especially the financial sector) depedent on computers, I
think that carrying capacity is about to go way down.  Lets say it goes
down 10% on Jan 1, 2000.  That would be .1*250,000,000 = 25,000,000
(dead/starved/homeless?)

I know I'm probably making a judgement error somewhere.  I'm certainly not
a Christian post-contructionist-millenialist.  I'm not waiting for the
savior to come down and bring us all up to heaven.  I don't savor living
in the wild for longer than my camping trip and am not a "survivalist".

I'd just like to keep getting my greasy Burger King breakfast, browse my
Barnes and Noble on the weekends, have a decent cup of java once in a
while and and enough time for my network feed to upgrade to a 320kbps
xDSL line.

Something tells me that if the IRS, the FED, Major Banks, US Army C&C, 
GPS Satellites and the Railroad shipments fail within months of each
other we are not going to be browsing Barnes and Noble on the weekends.

Jim










From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 11 11:27:52 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:27:52 +0800
Subject: NoneGary Burnore, Paul Pomes, and the DataBasix Gang (was: Re: Remailer hating Nazis)
Message-ID: <199711111830.TAA27254@basement.replay.com>



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:

> >I'm familiar with the role of Gary Burnore <gburnore at netcom.com> and that
> >of his DataBasix associates Belinda Bryan <eridani at ix.netcom.com> and Billy
> >McClatchie (aka "Wotan") <wmcclatc at primenet.com> in getting the Mailmasher
> >and Huge Cajones remailers shut down.  Jeff Burchell posted a public
> >expose' of their harassment to Usenet back in June, apparently catching the
> >DataBasix folks off-guard.  But what's the story with Paul Pomes?  What has
> >he done?
>  
> Paul Pomes was complaining about Jeff Burchell's huge cajones remailer to Jeff
> Burchell's upstream and employers about the same time the rest of the Databasix
> gang was doing it.  Paul Pomes appears to be a part of the Databasix gang.

It's sort of ironic that these anti-privacy, anti-anonymity Nazi wannabes
complain about remailers which give their users privacy, then somehow expect that 
their own complaints will be kept hidden.  I rather syspect that Gary Burnore, 
Belinda Bryan, and Paul Pomes were rather shocked when Jeff Burchell decided to 
tell the whole story (unfortunately AFTER shutting down the Huge Cajones remailer).

Maybe the next time Gary, Linda, or Paul send a remailer operator a complaint,
the operator will know what to expect next.  I'm wondering if that's at least
part of what's behind the faux spam-baiting that's underway, with messages to
varios MMF, MLM, and alt.sex.* NGs whose title and body consist of randomly-
chosen words, followed by a list of bogus e-mail addresses in the body.  The
thing that's not so random is the high percentage of words that are related to
DataBasix, such as "DataBasix", "Burnore", and "Wotan".  I'm almost waiting for
Gary Burnore to give the remailer and mail2news operators a "helpful" suggestion
that they could curb most of this "abuse" by simply blocking any anonymous
posts containing any of those three keywords. <g>  Or perhaps he's done so and
politely been turned down.

Perhaps the next wave of attacks on remailers will not consist of attempts to
shut them down altogether but to progressively cripple them by getting certain
features disabled, one by one.  This seems to have already started.  The strategy
seems to be to fabricate a form of "abuse", anonymously through remailers, for
which the seemingly "logical" solution is to disable a certain feature.  This has
already proven successful with header pasting, for example.  Now you can't post
to Usenet and set the From: address to that of your own 'nym.  I'm not even
certain that you can set a Reply-To: address any more.  If the "camel" can get
his nose under the tent and convince operators to start filtering on the *CONTENT*
of the Subject: line or body of usenet posts, the anti-privacy nuts will have
scored a major victory.  In fact, from reading Jeff Burchell's posts, it looks like
Gary and his DataBasux-ers had initially convinced Jeff to do exactly that.  But,
in a symbolic victory for freedom of speech, he removed those filters for a week
before he finally shut down Huge Cajones altogether.
     
> >Perhaps the best thing that can be done with people like Burnore is to put
> >together an FAQ about their tactics, similar to what his "fans" have done
> >for the "Rev." Steve Winter.  Then when Burnore tries to stir up trouble by
> >first fabricating anonymous "abuse" and then demanding that it either be
> >stopped and the culprit(s) identified (knowing in advance that's
> >impossible), or else that the remailer be shut down, someone can forward
> >that FAQ to the remailer's upstream provider, or whoever is being pressured
> >to pull the plug.  And if Paul Pomes engages in the same dishonest tactics,
> >that needs to be done with him as well.
>      
> Gary Burnore had a mongo page at http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html.
> So did Paul Pomes, Belinda Bryan, and the rest of the Databasix gang.
> Too bad it's down for now, but it'll be back.

It's already back, for the time being.  The new URL is:

   http://www.spambusters.dyn.ml.org/www.netscum.net/burnorg0.htm

I'll go look for Paul Pomes' page at that site.  Thanks for the tip!  Let's
see how long that site stays in operation before the self-styled "Thought
Police" attempt to shut it down.

--
Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.

 -- General William Westmoreland   






From dapeebjk12 at canopous.net.br  Wed Nov 12 03:45:18 1997
From: dapeebjk12 at canopous.net.br (dapeebjk12 at canopous.net.br)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:45:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: E-Mail Fortune Cookie
Message-ID: <>


To:  All humans who love to open fortune cookies, and are tired of icky, unhappy, thoughts clogging the brain cells of humanity!!

From:  Email Fortune Cookie Company....specializing in the manufacture and distribution of insightful, creative, positive wisdom and advice contained in a unique and funny email fortune cookies! 

Positive, funny fortunes are much needed in this sometimes not so happy world!  No political slant...No religious agenda...just pure goodness...pure happiness, officially prepared as an email fortune cookie for YOU!

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It is time to receive your own, positive email fortune cookie guaranteed to make you laugh, improve your thinking, and improve your life!  

You can receive your own email fortune cookie(EFC) and begin to change your thinking, and thus the thinking of our world.  The specially prepared EFC will speak to the purity and goodness of the human mind, and how well and good life is!  

It is time positive fortunes replace the end of the world idiots who love to hear themselves!! Lets wipe out negativity together and divert the apocolypse..acopolipt...or whatever!!!  hehe....

So, send one juicy dollar bill, <U>along with your email address, to:  

Email Fortune Cookie Company, 
P.O. Box 359, 
Preston, Missouri 65732

and a special, officially prepared "EFC" will be promptly delivered to your email address!

Why send one dollar?  Well, listen to this: money is a symbol of the life energy we extend to the universe.... I am sending you positive energy... and to prosper at the same time is the essence of living.  

Sincerely:

EMAIL FORTUNE COOKIE COMPANY

Disclaimer:  Your address was recently purchased from a mail list company as a person who is interested in business opportunities.  If  this is not correct and you would like to be removed off our master list, please e-mail removenow at rocketmail.com or call (800) 420-7252 and your address will be removed immediately.  Thank you for your patience.  






From dapeebjk12 at canopous.net.br  Wed Nov 12 03:45:18 1997
From: dapeebjk12 at canopous.net.br (dapeebjk12 at canopous.net.br)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:45:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: E-Mail Fortune Cookie
Message-ID: <>


To:  All humans who love to open fortune cookies, and are tired of icky, unhappy, thoughts clogging the brain cells of humanity!!

From:  Email Fortune Cookie Company....specializing in the manufacture and distribution of insightful, creative, positive wisdom and advice contained in a unique and funny email fortune cookies! 

Positive, funny fortunes are much needed in this sometimes not so happy world!  No political slant...No religious agenda...just pure goodness...pure happiness, officially prepared as an email fortune cookie for YOU!

Are you tired of watching tv... looking at the newspaper...listening to your boss...your friends... all spout off how unhappy they are, about how doomed world is?  Kinda makes you blue doesnt it?

It is time to receive your own, positive email fortune cookie guaranteed to make you laugh, improve your thinking, and improve your life!  

You can receive your own email fortune cookie(EFC) and begin to change your thinking, and thus the thinking of our world.  The specially prepared EFC will speak to the purity and goodness of the human mind, and how well and good life is!  

It is time positive fortunes replace the end of the world idiots who love to hear themselves!! Lets wipe out negativity together and divert the apocolypse..acopolipt...or whatever!!!  hehe....

So, send one juicy dollar bill, <U>along with your email address, to:  

Email Fortune Cookie Company, 
P.O. Box 359, 
Preston, Missouri 65732

and a special, officially prepared "EFC" will be promptly delivered to your email address!

Why send one dollar?  Well, listen to this: money is a symbol of the life energy we extend to the universe.... I am sending you positive energy... and to prosper at the same time is the essence of living.  

Sincerely:

EMAIL FORTUNE COOKIE COMPANY

Disclaimer:  Your address was recently purchased from a mail list company as a person who is interested in business opportunities.  If  this is not correct and you would like to be removed off our master list, please e-mail removenow at rocketmail.com or call (800) 420-7252 and your address will be removed immediately.  Thank you for your patience.  






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 11 12:00:57 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:00:57 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971111182816.006cf7f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab08e54b6d633@[207.167.93.63]>



At 11:28 AM -0700 11/11/97, John Young wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>
>>But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.
>
>WSJ reports today on the increasing conservatism of the military and
>disputes about the pretense of civilian control, with some officers calling
>for responsible action to compensate for societal breakdown.

Most of ex-military people I know have no desire to intervene in "societal
breakdown" of the sort the media and politicians seeking reelection like to
talk about (e.g., Dan Quayle's comments about "Murphy Brown" some years
back).

(I happen to agree with the sentiments Quayle expressed, that glorifying
single motherhood is a dangerous message to send, one that's been
successfully sent for decades. The vast majority of unmarried women cannot
plausibly raise children and continue to earn a living to pay for their
choices. Maybe "Murphy Brown" can, maybe Madonna can, but Latoya Q. Brown
in the inner city surely cannot. So, the unwed mothers get AFDC, WIC, food
stamps, welfare, etc. I say let the vermin and their litters starve.)

Where the ex-military I know want to intervene is in defending their
regions and towns against outside interference, rioters, black helicopters,
etc.

A friend of mine was an Army Ranger, and he's one of the biggest
stockpilers of armaments I've ever seen.

Many of us cheered the television coverage of Koreans shooting the Hispanic
and black looters in LA. When the next riot comes, gonna be a lot more dead
rioters. My brother, for example, lived 4 miles from the perimeter of the
free fire zone, and he and all of his buddies stocked up on Glocks, SIGs,
and AR-15s right after the riots ended and the gun stores re-opened.

>It cites several examples of military members preparing for war at home,
>as mentioned here earlier by Attila and others, with two Marine writers
>claiming that the next Somolia will be here.
>
>This, coupled with reports on LEA inheritance of military equipment and
>lavish civilian funding to fight terrorism, portends more than Jim Bell
>(Tim May?) -type sniper takeouts.

In the infamous "Twenty-Nine Palms" poll of soldiers, asking if troops
would fire on civilians if ordered to carry out an order, the longer the
soldier had been in the service, the less likely he was to say he would.
(The context of this order is generally believed to be related to a
Department of Defense involvement in the wholesale disarming of the
population under a state of emergency, FEMA or U.N. orders, etc.)

This is consistent with the military retireds I know being _extremely_
anti-government. Usually with a right-wing flavor, but then that is
understandable.

And they're also fed up with the political correctness witch hunt in the
active military. The campaign against "skinheads" being an example. If a
soldier murders someone, black or white or whatever, prosecute them. But
making membership in a political or ethnic group a crime is unworthy of the
United States.

But all too typical.

--TIm May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 11 12:13:53 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:13:53 +0800
Subject: Matters of Law
Message-ID: <199711111952.UAA07672@basement.replay.com>



>It is often claimed (here, too) that "anyone may sue." This is true. Just
>pay a filing fee, etc., and anyone can sue. Alice can sue Bob because he is
>reading "War and Peace." I can sue Suzie because I didn't like the color of
>the dress she wore. And so on, so the theory goes.

YMMV, depending on locality. Some places require a lawyer to certify that the
lawsuit has (in hir opinion) at least a reasonable chance of succeeding. That
may not apply in small claims court, tho.

>(And the courts have even taken steps against those who have filed many
>frivolous lawsuits with the apparent intent of harassment. )

They can go after the aforementioned lawyers for this, too. One of Scientology's lawyers, Helena ("The Kobra") Kobrin, has been sanctioned for filing frivolous lawsuits on behalf of that cult.







From lizard at mrlizard.com  Tue Nov 11 12:14:43 1997
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:14:43 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971111115626.00cf2150@dnai.com>



At 11:56 AM 11/11/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Ruling that the right to a free press doesn't
>>cover a how-to-kill book, a federal appeals panel said the families
>>of a hired killer's victims may sue the publisher of a book that he
>>consulted.
>> 
>>A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied
>>First Amendment protection to ``Hit Man: A Technical Manual for
>>Independent Contractors,'' saying publisher Paladin Press knew it
>>would be used by murderers.
>
>The decision is online in an incredibly difficult-to-read layout at:
>
><http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/nov97/962412.p.html>
>
So this is a reversal of the earlier decision? Looks like this is heading
for the SC...I think the SC will uphold the right to publish it, as this
book in no way falls into the category of 'imminent incitement'.






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 11 12:19:39 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:19:39 +0800
Subject: The Collapse is Coming
In-Reply-To: <199711110513.VAA13432@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb08e5a271d61@[207.167.93.63]>



At 12:57 PM -0700 11/11/97, Jim Burnes wrote:

>I'm not sure that there is anything they can do about it anyway.  The
>contract to fix the IRS's Y2K problem won't be awarded until October of
>1998 (!!).  That leaves them 8 months until software oblivion to fix the
>problem.  They have an estimated 60 to 80 million lines of code to fix and
>test. (some of the code they don't have source code for, some of it is in
>assembler)
....
>The end result would be an interesting study in complexity and catastrophe
>theory.
>
>For me, I will be on an extended fishing trip somewhere in the Rockies.

Yep, except I plan to be at home, in my compound, with a several-month
supply of food. (I'm on a well, and I have a generator, so a loss of the
grid in the ensuing chaos would not devastate me. Plus, central California
has a pretty mild climate...)

The dumbest thing to do is to pay big bucks, as many are, to be in some
exotic location to celebrate the rollover of the digits (if not the
century, as we all know). Imagine being stranded in Cairo or Machu Piccu
during this meltdown.

>If the system crashes then the joke will be on the megacorps that
>volunteered to fix the thing.  All those US FRN electronic ledger entries
>won't be worth the diskspace that holds them.
>
>Or so it would seem.  As the programmers who work on the system realize
>that it will be impossible to fix the system, they will be buying hard
>assets and leaving the Y2K project like rats from a sinking ship.

The consensus in the survivalist community is that the Y2K problem will
devastate the IRS system, exactly as Jim describes here (and as we
discussed on the list a couple of months ago, mid-September, under the
thread title, "Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis"). Too
many interdependencies, too much old code, not enough time or money to make
the changes, and probably not even enough knowledge about how to go about
it.

All it will take are a few systems failing. Checks arriving late, systems
crashing, a slowdown in an already slow system. (And of course the common
workarounds, such as keeping the computer clock set at 1998 or 1999, will
not work, as many benefits and IRS programs have dependencies on the clock
year, on the ages of taxpayers, on previous year's payments, and on and on.)

The loss of confidence in a highly-automated--but nevertheless
creaky--system will be glorious to watch.


>If any of the federal infrastructure protection specialists are listening
>in on cypherpunks (and we know you are), then maybe you ought to pay some
>real close attention to the things that are the most likely to bring about
>TEOCAWKI (the end of civilization as we know it).  Y2K is much more of a
>threat that the four horseman of the infocalypse.
>

You need to see the _bright side_ of the problem! By undermining the
system,  the changes that are needed will come sooner.

And I think the theory that tax protestors have been sabotaging the system
for decades is probably on target. Obfuscating the code, destroying source
code, inserting logic bombs.


>Something tells me that if the IRS, the FED, Major Banks, US Army C&C,
>GPS Satellites and the Railroad shipments fail within months of each
>other we are not going to be browsing Barnes and Noble on the weekends.

Just remember three words:

Lock and load.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From pethern at inet.uni2.dk  Tue Nov 11 12:29:16 1997
From: pethern at inet.uni2.dk (Peter Herngaard)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:29:16 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971111115626.00cf2150@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9711112118.A5630-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>



This ruling is interesting.
Does the First Amendment jurisprudence generelly require strict scrutiny in 
civil as it does in criminal action?
In other words, does a plaintiff in a civil case have to prove that the 
statement was intended  to incite imminent lawless action 
to recover damages like the goverment in a criminal case?






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Tue Nov 11 12:35:05 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:35:05 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971111115651.03c9c8e0@mail.io.com>



>RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Ruling that the right to a free press doesn't
>cover a how-to-kill book, a federal appeals panel said the families
>of a hired killer's victims may sue the publisher of a book that he
>consulted.
> 
>A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied
>First Amendment protection to ``Hit Man: A Technical Manual for
>Independent Contractors,'' saying publisher Paladin Press knew it
>would be used by murderers.

The decision is online in an incredibly difficult-to-read layout at:

<http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/nov97/962412.p.html>

.. I'm working on a more nicely formatted version, but am kinda getting my
ass kicked with things to do today, so that may not be ready until tomorrow. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 11 12:49:19 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:49:19 +0800
Subject: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971109133212.1603A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199711112033.PAA04786@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.91.971109133212.1603A-100000 at fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
11/09/97 
   at 01:38 PM, Paul Bradley <paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:



>> usually we ignore people at your level, but we'll try our best for you, as
>> it might be just temorary insanity.

>Anyone have the same suspicions as me as to who is marketing VME, I`ll 
>guess trh same guy (his name escapes me for now) who spent a few weeks on
> the list earlier this year touting his unbreakable encryption scheme 
>based on LCSRs.

>> 2) VME flowchart, algorithms and the VME application itself is already in
>> the hands of the large 250 sotware corporations for evaluation. If any of
>> them will prove otherwise, then you might be able to jump and make an idiot
>> of yourself as you did now.

>Have they actually confirmed they are analyzing it, or have you just sent
> them the information.

>> 4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
>> around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

>I`ll make you an offer, sue me for alleging fraud, I say you are a 
>fraudulent cocksucker, and the email address on this is genuine, and I 
>will, if you wish, allege fraud in a PGP signed mail. 

>Ps. Are you fucking the guy who wrote the CMR code for PGP up the ass, or
> does your crypto experience not stretch even that far.

Well this moron, whoever he may be has threaten to "have papers served" on
me in regards to my last post of this topic.

I am still unsure if it is actually someone from this company making these
posts. The poster still has not figured out how to make use of digital
signatures nor is he/she/it willing to put a name on their posts (hmmmm
what was their remark about cowards hiding behind anonymity??).

I guess we will see how far they are willing to take this or if it is just
the work of crafty operators from the EFF (Electronic Forgery Foundation).
:)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGjArI9Co1n+aLhhAQE/+gP/UOxshWJKcsgLLwcJNzTDjtf+dDq0BNeo
Ll5IDj0i8+UUIo4Mas0W+JGJKuusmaPagLze3yyRjcZJ6s8Y0DqtF4TclfmEAFSC
bGmgfIiQ5/lXIpSKCYZOabPw1ONP/OeH+70GPgswdU7fs7e44MjmT0pOBzz02ot0
EDgQMqtnYUk=
=w47j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ulf at fitug.de  Tue Nov 11 12:49:39 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:49:39 +0800
Subject: Mixmaster Port Question
In-Reply-To: <199711110014.AAA30800@out2.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <m0xVMm4-0003bcC@ulf.mali.sub.org>



>The DOS version of Mixmaster requires Private Idaho.  Does a more
>generic version, not dependent on Private Idaho, exist?

It can also be used with Potato or as a stand-alone command line
program.  I would more or less expect that it also runs under OS/2.






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 11 12:57:17 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:57:17 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <v03110741b08e51241192@[139.167.130.248]>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:21 am -0500 on 11/11/97, Tim May wrote:

> Maybe a book about fighting for
> liberty provided "abstract advocacy speech so explicit in its palpable
> entreaties to violent crime" (and so it is unprotected, according to the
> courts).

And then he wrote:

> But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I
> thought.
>
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.


"Please, Br'er Fox, don' throw me into that briar patch!"???


Sheesh.

Remind me not to lock myself up, all alone, with a bunch of live ammo and
almost no one to talk to but the internet, in an isolated hilltop
country-house-cum-cypherfortress, in the most liberal county, in the most
liberal state, in the world's last (crypto)socialist superpower.


I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy about being
next to soft targets these days, but I almost find myself agreeing with
other people, people you would respect otherwise, who are saying that you're
making yourself the greatest friend that Reno and Freeh ever had. A
vertiable poster boy for statism if there ever was one. And so on.


I figure the state, particularly the guys who work at the pointy end of the
bayonet, is kind of like Mongo in "Blazing Saddles": You shouldn't shoot at
them, because it only makes them mad. Unless, of course, they start shooting
at you first, and you have no other choice. Which, by the way, *you're* not
doing, even though you assert the opposite. "Mooning the ogre" of public
opinion, as Stuart Alsop puts it, and forcing a showdown with people who
would normally not give a shit about you, isn't going to do you, or anyone
who agrees with you, any good. It's like spitting on a cop as he walks by
and then marvelling at his suprising ferocity when he beats you to a bloody
pulp...

I mean, even the best Heinlien hero knows you don't piss off the bad guys
when there are more of them than you, especially when they know where you
live.


And, frankly, I even disagree with Tim's analysis of the situation. It took
a long time, all the way from the treaty of Westphalia to the Declaration of
Independence, for the modern nation-state to finally overthrow aristocracy
and demonstrate its superiority in the allocation of force. After that, it
took less than a generation, with the French revolution and Napoleon, for
the nation-state to show all the really bad things it can do with that
power.

I expect that, even with "net-years" and Moore's Law, it'll be quite a while
yet for the cryptoanarchy/Market Earth/geodesic society/whatever
"revolution" to finish, and, when it does, the result will probably be much
less violent than a SWAT raid on Tim's Way Cool Latter-Day
Farnham's-Freehold in the Santa Clara mountains.

What it'll mean *after* that, I leave as an excercise for the reader. Tim's
got just as good an idea about it as Duncan, or me, or anyone else with (in
my case, at least) a hyperactive imagination and too much time to use it.
Frankly, it would be nice to have Tim around to watch it happen, or at least
to think about it some more. If he's got nothing better to do, that is.


On the other hand, Tim, I suppose, there *is* Bosnia as a prima facie
counterexample, and I bet that *that* little fandango probably started with
a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself to be these
days.

Frankly, if that's the model you want to follow, Tim, I would suggest that
you actually move somewhere where other folks who think like you live
already, instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of every
statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland. Maybe (ironically)
the "Blue Heaven" neighborhoods in Idaho, or somewhere in southeast Nevada,
or Arizona, or Wyoming, or Montana. I like the North Fork of the Flathead,
myself, but that's just 'cause the country's so damn pretty. "Amerika", such
as it is, is still a pretty big place.

I bet if you go to a place like that, where intellegent people appreciate
guns and freedom, you won't have to clean the snot off the end of your
gunbarrel so often, and, you might have some help when -- or if -- Mongo's
Minions eventually *do* burn their way through your steel-reinforced front
door.

I also think using a nym for this kind of inflamitory stuff might also be
more useful, first amendment, or no. Write code, not laws, and all that.
Certainly the tools are there, now, and, if they're not to your liking, you
could probably build (or buy :-)) a few of your own. Even Patrick Henry had
um, common sense, about such things.


Finally, Tim, it seems to me like you've just gotten bored. You've figured
out how to work, and save, and invest the proceeds, so that now you're never
going to have to work again a day in your life unless you want to. Something
most of us, myself included, will never learn, I bet. But now, it's as if
you want to risk it all, and make your life, um, interesting, again, by, as
Kesey once said, "starring in your own movie".

And, it's a bad movie, Tim.  With all the good ideas you have about freedom,
and cryptography on free networks, and the way the world's probably going to
turn out as a result, not to mention the influence you've had on the way the
world thinks about such things, it's a shame that this particular movie of
yours has such a cliche', almost cringingly liberal, 1970's anti-hero in it,
ala "Marathon Man", or "Day of the Condor", or "Butch Cassidy". Or "Bonnie
and Clyde".


Frankly, I liked Lazarus Long, or even old Farnham himself, a lot better.
Hell, even a better, more libertarian (Nazi uniforms? Sheesh^2...), remake
of "Starship Troopers" would be preferrable to the scipt you've written
yourself.

At least Johnny Rico walks away when the bugs are finished coming out of the
bug-hole...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



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Yes. It's 5.5 . Resistance is futile...

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 11 13:49:32 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 05:49:32 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b08e34db5a2d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb08e6e08c8f3@[207.167.93.63]>



At 1:34 PM -0700 11/11/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Sheesh.
>
>Remind me not to lock myself up, all alone, with a bunch of live ammo and
>almost no one to talk to but the internet, in an isolated hilltop
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ad hominem becomes you, Bob.

A variation of the old "get a life" put down of anyone whose opinions one
disagrees with.

>I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy about being
>next to soft targets these days, but I almost find myself agreeing with
>other people, people you would respect otherwise, who are saying that you're
>making yourself the greatest friend that Reno and Freeh ever had. A
>vertiable poster boy for statism if there ever was one. And so on.

So we're back to the old "if we won't restrain our opinions, Reno and Freeh
will have to."

I say what I think. Not all of it publically.

Recently I was using my ComSec 3DES phone to talk privately (with one of
those rare persons, according to Bob, that I talk to outside of the Net)
with someone. He sent me later saying, "Nice talking to you this evening
(afternoon, for you) and nice to be able to speak freely. What used to be
taken for granted is now a
luxury. <sigh>"

Truer words were never spoken. Wiretaps, anti-terrorism task forces,
political prisoners in Washington state, Roby Rudge, Ruby Ridge, Waco, bans
on discussion of chemicals and bombs, and on and on.

>I figure the state, particularly the guys who work at the pointy end of the
>bayonet, is kind of like Mongo in "Blazing Saddles": You shouldn't shoot at
>them, because it only makes them mad. Unless, of course, they start shooting
>at you first, and you have no other choice. Which, by the way, *you're* not
>doing, even though you assert the opposite. "Mooning the ogre" of public
>opinion, as Stuart Alsop puts it, and forcing a showdown with people who
>would normally not give a shit about you, isn't going to do you, or anyone
>who agrees with you, any good. It's like spitting on a cop as he walks by
>and then marvelling at his suprising ferocity when he beats you to a bloody
>pulp...

More over the top nonsense from Bob. I've done nothing that will "force a
showdown." Precisely what crimes, Bob, have I committed? Cite a charge.
Even a single one.


>On the other hand, Tim, I suppose, there *is* Bosnia as a prima facie
>counterexample, and I bet that *that* little fandango probably started with
>a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself to be these
>days.

More typical Bob Hettinga insult arguments. You ought to form a club with
Kent Crispin, Detweiler, and Vulis.

>Frankly, if that's the model you want to follow, Tim, I would suggest that
>you actually move somewhere where other folks who think like you live
>already, instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of every
>statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland. Maybe (ironically)

You want to document a case where I've shoved a Mac-10 up anyone's nose,
let alone a tree hugger?

Or is talking now the same as shoving a gun in someone's nose? (You'd be
surprised how many liberals think this is so, even some judges who just
ruled against Evil Assault Literature.)

>I bet if you go to a place like that, where intellegent people appreciate
>guns and freedom, you won't have to clean the snot off the end of your

Bob, get back on your medications.

>Frankly, I liked Lazarus Long, or even old Farnham himself, a lot better.
>Hell, even a better, more libertarian (Nazi uniforms? Sheesh^2...), remake
>of "Starship Troopers" would be preferrable to the scipt you've written
>yourself.

I don't form or express my opinions to have you like me more than these
fiction characters you're obsessed with.

Get a life, Bob.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Tue Nov 11 14:18:42 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:18:42 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711112143.NAA06603@sirius.infonex.com>




John Young wrote:
WSJ reports today on the increasing conservatism of the military and
disputes about the pretense of civilian control, with some officers calling
for responsible action to compensate for societal breakdown.

It cites several examples of military members preparing for war at home, 
as mentioned here earlier by Attila and others, with two Marine writers
claiming that the next Somolia will be here.

This, coupled with reports on LEA inheritance of military equipment and
lavish civilian funding to fight terrorism, portends more than Jim Bell 
(Tim May?) -type sniper takeouts.

Free fire zones may be in the offing, or surgical wasting of underground
bunkers and germmakers (troublemakers). Wrathful Mars sees no innocents, 
so preaches the terrorist freedom warfighters pursuing a dream of winner 
take all, so sorry constitutional fundies, we're the warmonger biz.
----end quote

Evidently they assume a one sided strategy.

Wrathful Mars has little memory of recent history.       






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 11 14:28:06 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:28:06 +0800
Subject: Tygar cracks SET (was Re: Freeware SET?)
In-Reply-To: <v03110701b08a31e6dc15@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03110768b08e8307ca92@[139.167.130.248]>



At 2:11 pm -0500 on 11/9/97, Donald E. Eastlake 3rd wrote:


> The SET reference implementation was written only with a concern for protocol
> correctness and essentially no concern for operational usability.  It is not
> clear to me that a product could be based on it without a lot of additonal
> work.  But I suppose it might be useful for hacking...

At Doug Tygar's talk at Harvard last week, he claimed to have found a way
to crack it. I, um, forgot to press him on this. Has anyone heard about
this, or what it might be?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov 11 14:39:48 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:39:48 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <72R+hx1gRrVqJIcQoAlFog==@bureau42.ml.org>



nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com writes:

> I believe in separation of church and state.  The state must get out of
> things like education and welfare (charity) and other things that are not
> their responsibility.
> 
> The mistake was when the courts ruled that prayer could not occur in
> public (government) schools.  The very next day, every government school
> should have been closed down (this would also have shown the court that it
> should be careful with its rulings).  And society would not have
> experienced as much decay as it has. 

Amen!  I remember when as a young teacher I used to lead my third grade
class in our daily devotional to Ba'al and Ishtar.  It got everyone off 
to a good start and kept us grounded in proper moral values throughout 
the school day.  (Of course every year there was some small group of 
malcontent parents pissing and moaning about this and wanting me to lead 
the class in Christian prayers!  Can you imagine?)

Society just hasn't been the same since.  Everything's going to hell
in a hand basket.


--
Ba'al-Boy







From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Tue Nov 11 14:52:19 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:52:19 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Gotta love the Supreme Court
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971111153602.323D-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>




Whew.. Well I hope we don't have to depend on the Supreme
Court for further privacy decisions.....

>   
>U.S. High Court Denies Strip-Search Appeal
>
>   By James Vicini
>   
>   WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Supreme Court let stand Monday a ruling
>   that public school officials did not violate clearly established
>   constitutional privacy rights by twice strip-searching two girls in
>   the second grade.
>   
>   The justices left intact a U.S. appeals court ruling that the
>   officials may be guilty of "questionable judgment," but could not be
>   held liable for money damages for an unconstitutional search of the
>   8-year-old girls.
>   
>   The case began May 1, 1992, when a teacher and a school counselor in
>   Talladega, Ala., conducted the strip-searches after a classmate
>   reported $7 missing from her purse.
>   
>   Another classmate accused one of the girls, Cassandra Jenkins, of
>   stealing the money and putting it in the backpack of the other girl,
>   Oneika McKenzie. No money was found in the backpack.
>   
>   The two girls were taken to a restroom and told by music teacher
>   Susannah Herring to remove their clothes. They were told to come out
>   of the toilet stalls with their underpants down to their ankles, which
>   they did.
>   
>   No money was found on the girls or in their clothing. After a trip to
>   the principal's office, the girls were taken by Herring and guidance
>   counselor Melba Simon back to the restroom for another, unsuccessful
>   strip-search.
>   
>   The parents of the two girls sued for damages under the civil rights
>   laws, alleging violations of their constitutional right to be free
>   from unreasonable searches.
>   
>   A federal judge dismissed the lawsuit. A divided appeals court in
>   June upheld the decision, ruling that the teacher and counselor enjoyed
>   partial immunity from the constitutional claim.
>   
>   The appeals court said that in 1992 the law involving searches of
>   students at school had not been sufficiently developed to place the
>   educators on notice that their conduct was constitutionally
>   impermissible.
>   
>   The Supreme Court in a 1985 ruling gave school administrators greater
>   flexibility to search students, but said they still have a legitimate
>   right to privacy and added that the search cannot be "excessively
>   intrusive."
>   
>   Attorneys for the two girls appealed to the Supreme Court, arguing
>   that the appeals court decision conflicted with the 1985 precedent.
>   They said the appeals court decision sent the wrong message to
>   "school officials nationwide."
>   
>   They said school authorities may strip-search students to prevent
>   imminent danger from the possession of weapons or illegal drugs, but
>   they may not use intrusive searches for "the most minor suspected
>   infractions."
>   
>   The attorneys said Supreme Court guidance was urgently needed on the
>   extent of constitutional constraints on strip-searches in schools.
>   
>   Attorneys for the teacher and the counselor urged that the appeal be
>   denied, saying the appeals court correctly decided the case. The
>   Supreme Court turned down the appeal without any comment or dissent.
>    

"THE BILL OF RIGHTS: Void where prohibited by law."

jim







From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 11 15:07:31 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:07:31 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971111115626.00cf2150@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802b08e93782291@[168.161.105.216]>



Here are two portions I found interesting:

>the district court granted Paladin's motion for summary
>judgment and dismissed plain- tiffs' claims that
>Paladin aided and abetted Perry, holding that these
>claims were barred by the First Amendment as a matter
>of law. Because long- established caselaw provides
>that speech - - even speech by the press - - that
>constitutes criminal aiding and abetting does not
>enjoy the protection of the First Amendment, and
>because we are convinced that such caselaw is both
>correct and equally appli- cable to speech that
>constitutes civil aiding and abetting of criminal
>conduct (at least where, as here, the defendant has
>the specific pur- pose of assisting and encouraging
>commission of such conduct and the alleged assistance
>and encouragement takes a form other than abstract
>advocacy), we hold, as urged by the Attorney General
>and the Department of Justice, that the First
>Amendment does not pose a bar to a finding that
>Paladin is civilly liable as an aider and abetter of
>Perry's triple contract murder... the district court's
>grant of summary judgment in Paladin's favor is
>reversed and the case is remanded for trial.
>


>Thus, in a case indistinguishable in principle from that before us,
>
>the Ninth Circuit expressly held in United States v. Barnett, 667 F.2d
>
>835 (9th Cir. 1982), that the First Amendment does not provide pub-
>
>lishers a defense as a matter of law to charges of aiding and abetting
>
>a crime through the publication and distribution of instructions on
>
>how to make illegal drugs. In rejecting the publisher's argument that
>
>there could be no probable cause to believe that a crime had been
>
>committed because its actions were shielded by the First Amendment,
>
>and thus a fortiori there was no probable cause to support the search
>
>pursuant to which the drug manufacturing instructions were found,
>
>the Court of Appeals explicitly foreclosed a First Amendment defense
>
>not only to the search itself, but also to a later prosecution:
>
>To the extent . . . that Barnett appears to contend that he is
>
>immune from search or prosecution because he uses the
>
>printed word in encouraging and counseling others in the
>
>commission of a crime, we hold expressly that the first
>
>amendment does not provide a defense as a matter of law to
>
>such conduct.

-Declan







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 11 15:12:12 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:12:12 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <199711112252.XAA26901@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> At 9:42 AM -0700 11/11/97, Eric Cordian wrote:
> >A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied
> >First Amendment protection to ``Hit Man: A Technical Manual for
> >Independent Contractors,'' saying publisher Paladin Press knew it
> >would be used by murderers.
> >
> >The book was sold to James Edward Perry, who was convicted of killing
> >Mildred Horn; her disabled 8-year-old son, Trevor; and the son's
> >nurse, Janice Saunders, in Silver Spring, Md., in 1993. The women were
> >shot between the eyes and the boy's respirator was unplugged.
 
> Having skimmed the "Hit Man" book, I can tell you it conveyed no unique
> information about how to shoot someone between the eyes and unplug a
> respirator.

If I recall correctly, it suggests the back of the neck/head as the 
Miss Murderer proper point of entry for small projectiles.

The instructions on how to build a silencer were very useful, but
neglected to mention that being smart enough to follow the instructions
didn't necessarily mean you were smart enough to use it properly.
A word of advice...if you forget to take the steel rod used to align
the silencer out of the barrel before you use it, it stings like a
bitch when you shoot.
 
> If this Paladin case is not overturned, it will mean the "death through
> lawsuits" of nearly all publishers of even slightly controversial material.
> Loompanics will go, Delta Press will go, etc. "Unintended Consequences"
> will be withdrawn by the publisher and the author will be sued. "The Turner
> Diaries" will become a contraband item.

I wonder if any kids reading the Bible have murdered big guys by using
a slingshot? Sounds like a case for censorship, to me.
 
> And why not sue other publishers and bookstores? Maybe a book on abortions
> helped a woman perform an illegal abortion. Maybe a book about fighting for
> liberty provided "abstract advocacy speech so explicit in its palpable
> entreaties to violent crime" (and so it is unprotected, according to the
> courts).

Perhaps the British could launch a class-action suit against the author
of the Star-Spangled Banner, and have it banned. They could use Jimi
Hendrix's Woodstock version to work the jury into an emotional frenzy
against it as an anthem for drug-addicted freaks.

> But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.

 <muffled explosions in the background>
 
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.

Better have our fearless leader, Jim Bell, convene a Melatonin People's
Court, immediately. (The rest of you guys signed and returned the 
'secret oath' that Jim sent last week, too, didn't you?) 

:: B o o t s







From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov 11 15:21:33 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:21:33 +0800
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
Message-ID: <q+SBQ0LrswuGagNQrYIGtw==@bureau42.ml.org>



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, [iso-latin-de] Heinz-J�rgen Keller wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > The german Chaos Computer Club distributes a Dos/Win binary (f00fc7c8.com,
> > 5 Bytes :-) ) and a linux version.
> > Have a look at http://www.ccc.de .

> So has anyone yet developed an ActiveX component of this? :) Heheheh...
> come to my site and watch your pentium crash. Heheheheheh!

Jeff Sandquist?
 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> .+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
> ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
> ../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
> .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
> ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================








From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 11 15:22:22 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:22:22 +0800
Subject: Washington Post on dangers of self-censorship for the Net
Message-ID: <v03007804b08e94374f6b@[168.161.105.216]>



[The Washington Post has it right. This is what many civil libertarians
have been warning about for months: the industry and some advocacy groups
(who should know better -- http://www.netparents.org/summit_part.html) are
falling over themelves in a rush to label, sort, and filter. They hope to
stave off a CDA II. But their frantic scurrying is "voluntary" only in the
sense that "voluntary" is newspeak for the threat of government censorship.
--Declan]

*****************

The Washington Post
November 10, 1997
EDITORIAL; Pg. A20
'Self-Regulation' and the Net

   CLOSE WATCHERSs of the long-running TV ratings fight could read it as a
series of tussles over exactly how far the government can go in pushing the
proprietors of an expressive medium -- such as TV -- to curb that
expression through "voluntary" action. When do carrot-and-stick become just
stick? That story isn't over yet: Congress, though antsy, has so far
managed to stay on the safe side of the line that separates pressure from
outright censorship, and the different responses of different networks is
ironic proof that the policy isn't completely coercive. But those who want
to see yet more variations on the theme can watch the whole pattern play
out again in White House efforts to encourage self-regulation on the
Internet.

   The administration, after coming to grief over its dogged support for
the unconstitutional Communications Decency Act, now takes the position
that it's up to software providers, parents and citizen groups to make the
Internet safe for children, though the government has a beefed-up role to
play in enforcing existing laws in cyberspace, for instance, those against
child pornography, stalking or harassment. As an accompaniment, though, it
is putting considerable public pressure on Internet players to develop a
system of ratings and "taggings" for sites that would allow parents to sort
Internet access by a few broadly agreed-upon categories.

   In a July announcement of steps taken by several large software
companies to include "family-friendly" sorting features in their browsers,
the president emphasized the importance of law enforcement and parental
involvement alike in making sure "we do not allow pornographers and
pedophiles to exploit a wonderful medium to abuse our children." The vice
president, praising the various filters on the market, called them "safety
belts for children traveling the Information Superhighway" -- though surely
he's the only person who still calls it that. Last week, though, Ira
Magaziner, the administration point-person on Net issues, took a different
tone in a speech to Internet advertisers. The "tremendous economic
benefits" of the Net won't work, he said, "if we don't get efficient
industry self-regulation on issues like privacy and content. . . . If you
fail, we will have to go the legislative route. That gets caught up in the
political process and will be less rational and efficient."

   Well, yes -- and also less legal. Don't get us wrong: Self-restraint, in
some of these cases, is a pretty good place for the providers of what's now
called "content" to end up. But the line between urging self-restraint and
threatening government censorship is a thin one. The White House, no less
than Congress, needs to watch its step.








From anon at anon.efga.org  Tue Nov 11 15:30:57 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:30:57 +0800
Subject: Databasix conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <4e0fdef2bdef3513815dc369c8dda4fc@anon.efga.org>



Andy Dustman wrote:
> Note that these comments apply primarily to the cracker remailer.

> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > Perhaps the next wave of attacks on remailers will not consist of
> > attempts to shut them down altogether but to progressively cripple them
> > by getting certain features disabled, one by one.  This seems to have
> > already started.  The strategy seems to be to fabricate a form of
> > "abuse", anonymously through remailers, for which the seemingly
> > "logical" solution is to disable a certain feature.  This has already
> > proven successful with header pasting, for example.  Now you can't post
> > to Usenet and set the From: address to that of your own 'nym.

  I think this has not only "already started," but is already reaping
exactly the results intended.
  The remailer attacks are very similar to age-old methods of censorship
and control by government and society. Those who define the 'problem' 
have taken a large step toward directing/controlling the 'solution.'

  The 'final solution' to remailer spam is to host it @dev.null, but
then you end up with a sick, twisted entity like the TruthMailer.
<sounds of CypherPunks screaming in anguish, as they slash their wrists>

> >  If the "camel" can get his nose under the tent and convince operators
> > to start filtering on the *CONTENT* of the Subject: line or body of
> > usenet posts, the anti-privacy nuts will have scored a major victory.
> > In fact, from reading Jeff Burchell's posts, it looks like Gary and his
> > DataBasux-ers had initially convinced Jeff to do exactly that.  But, in
> > a symbolic victory for freedom of speech, he removed those filters for a
> > week before he finally shut down Huge Cajones altogether.

  "If I make the Subject: line, "Make $$$ Fast," then the person who I
am anonymously ratting out for murder/molestation is not likely to read
it, if there is a copy automatically saved somewhere by the software."
  My point being that a remailer operator has no way of knowing what 
the ultimate effect of *any* filtering/blocking will be. (Unless you
read all of the email, like I do as the 'Bad Remailer' operator.)

> Cracker does have a spam-bait mangler which is somewhat simpler than the
> scheme Jeff used. In a nutshell, if there are an inordinately large number
> of addresses (compared to other text), the addresses are mangled, i.e.,
> president at whitehouse.gov becomes president <AT> whitehouse <DOT> gov.
> Still human-readable but useless for address harvesters. No posts get
> dropped or filtered out under this scheme, and no keywords or particular
> addresses are looked for.

PLATITUDE WARNING!!!
"When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that
 your original objective was to drain the swamp."

  It has been my experience that the 'Fear of Spam/Abuse' is beginning
to be the controlling factor in the usefulness, or lack thereof, of an
increasing number of remailers.
  In my opinion, any form of blocking/filtering which is not described
in the remailer-help documentation defeats much of the purpose of
providing remailer service in the first place. In particular, the very
fact that people become confused as to what is, or is not, 'acceptable'
use of a remailer tends to lead to a decline in their use. Increasingly,
as well, the knowledge that vaguely described filtering/blocking is 
being done by the remailer leads one to become confused as to what is
an unacceptable 'method' of using a remailer.

  I cannot help but feel that there has to be some simple ways of
addressing the spam/abuse issue without making the remailers a hit and
miss proposition for the average computer user.
  e.g. - A stated policy of allowing only 'X' number of emails from
the same address/ISP per day--UCE spammers *could* work around this,
but they make money by speed and volume, not by farting around with
this-and-that.
  This would immediately eliminate the spammers who are only capable
of hitting the return key on their spamming software, leaving the
operator free to take specific actions against anyone who does take
the time and trouble to circumvent the policy. And someone who has
gone to all of that trouble, only to get an email saying, "It didn't
work.", is likely to move on to greener pastures fast.

  What I am getting at is that all an operator really needs to do to
eliminate volume-abuse/spamming is to make it 'difficult' for those
spamming, not 'impossible.' Remember that the UCE spammers need to
send *millions* of emails to survive.
  When spam became a problem, I joined an anti-spam list and a UCE
spammers list. Serious spammers do the same.
  I think it is important to take the time to *notify* those who you
are filtering/blocking, even if it means searching their messages
for an email or snailmail contact point. Remember that one reason
these people send out the volume they do is that they *need* volume
to survive. If you don't notify them that their time and resources
are *wasted* by using your remailer, then they will have no reason
not to drop you as a route for their spam.
  I used to see people on the UCE/Spam list bragging about how they
were sending 10,000 emails a day through 'X', and 'Y' and 'Z', and
then see sysadmins/operators at 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' posting to the
anti-spam list, complaining, "I'm spending all of my time dumping
10,000 emails a day from some asshole."

  I believe that remailer operators should provide examples/details
of how any filtering/blocking policy is instituted, in order to
inform those who wish to use the remailer, and to discourage those
who want to abuse your policy.
  Subject and Content filtering are a never-ending merry-go-round
in which you block "Make $$$ Fast," <including my own spam-spoofs
"Make $$$ Fast at Home, Licking Your Own Dick!!!">, and the spammers
switch the Subject: line to "In Reply To Your Email." <you all know
the drill...>
  If an operator wishes to block whitehouse.gov from abuse by psychotic
child-molesting, terrorist CypherPunks (like yourselves), then it 
should be stated plainly in the remailer-help, for the youngster who
mistakenly thinks they have sent a plea for help to the whitehouse,
or another .gov site, or an AOL site, or whoever you use your policy
to block.

  I know the problems faced by those providing public remailer services,
and I appreciate the efforts/problems of the operators. I help people
running private remailers for specific groups needing privacy and
security, and it is still not a piece of cake.
  My problem is in many ways the opposite of many remailer operators.
I have people who sometimes need to send out several hundred emails
to people in a manner where they can reply anonymously, and have run
into filtering/blocking problems which seemed to change randomly,
at times. So I can sympathize with those who have few computer skills
and give up on remailers because "...they don't seem to work."
  My concern is that efforts toward total abuse-security will result
in the same convuluted dysfunctionality that results from those seeking
total privacy-security (without ever achieving that, either).

  Blocking/Filtering == Censorship!
  I recognize the need for each remailer operator to set their policy
according to their own individual situation, as it may be better to
allow threatening letters to legislators only one day a week than not
to provide the service at all, but I think it is important to make it
as clear as possible what the policy is, and how it is instituted, so
that remailers can be more than just toys for the computer literate.
  I also think that the remailer-help sent out should contain some
way for a potential user to bypass remailer policy, if necessary.
  e.g. - "I run a suicide support list and need to send/receive several
hundred emails sometimes. Please reply to me at the *real* address I
am providing, as to whether you can allow me to send that many per
day through your system."

  Blocking/Filtering == Censorship!
  Certainly there are those who seek to invent newer and better forms
of 'abuse' in an attempt to exercise disruptive power over the remailer
operator, but it has been my experience that those who engage in those
activities in order to fight perceived 'hypocrisy/censorship' are much
more likely to target those who do not clearly explain their policies
and the reasons behind them, as well as asking for feedback from those
who disagree, or think they have a better idea.
  There will always be those who attack remailers who have a policy of
'censoring' life-threatening letters to legislators, or 'censoring'
pictures of Mickey butt-fucking Minnie addressed to children's lists.
What is important to remember is that they have a right to their view,
and to push the envelope, or yank your string, or whatever.
  As a remailer operator, it is *your* role to enforce whatever policy
you personally believe in (or need to institute in order to survive
as a remailer). It is also your burden to bear, to figure out how to
do so without negating the goals that have inspired you to offer the
service, in the first place.

  Personally, I think that remailers are one of the most important
remaining providers of tools supporting freedom of speech/communication
on the InterNet. I and many others appreciate the service much more than
is apparent from the ratio of thank you's to fuck you's that you
receive,
so you should all give yourselves a couple million pats on the back.
(Except for those greedy assholes at Cracker...and the Commies who run
 Replay...and the Mountie Jackboots running Jam...and the Godless
 anarchists at bureau42...and all those operators sucking John Gilmore's
 cock..and......







From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 11 15:33:31 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:33:31 +0800
Subject: "Lynch mob mentality" at Senate violent music hearing
Message-ID: <v03007807b08e992878f7@[168.161.105.216]>




***************

[Forwarded with permission. --Declan]

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:53:02 -0500
From: Nina Crowley <crowleyn at ultranet.com>
Subject: Senate hearing summary

Hi,
This is really long but I think everyone should get a sense of the lynch
mob mentality in last weeks Senate subcommittee hearing.

		Senate Subcommittee Hearing

Senator Sam Brownback�s subcommittee hearing on the possible effect of
music violence on society was a major disaster for music and freedom of
expression.

The hearing, held on Nov.6, for 2 hours, had a very restricted list of
speakers.  For the two weeks previous to the hearing I and many others
applied to testify and were denied.  Brownback�s staff member in charge of
overseeing the panels was Cherie Harder.  (Ms. Harder appeared in the Oct.
19 MTV special "Fight for the Right" representing  Empower America.)  Ms.
Harder was doggedly dedicated to preserving the short and biased list of
speakers, refusing to consider additional speakers or an extended hearing
time allotment.

Senator Brownback (who on Wednesday seemed open to exploring the issue)
took a totally different tack in his opening statement.  He outlined
society�s current ills including a jump in teen suicide, pregnancy, crime,
and drug use.  He talked of a "sense that we have lost ground" (in the war
against teens perhaps? nc) and that society has grown "coarser, meaner, and
more alienated". He reports that "there has been a marked increase in
explicit violence and misogyny in popular music".  (Sen. Brownback offered
no reference to statistics which support any of these statements. His
stated belief that "research, debate and discussion" were needed was
certainly not carried out in this biased and, it seemed at times, rehearsed
condemnation of popular music. nc)  He said "The most appropriate place to
begin that inquiry is with the music itself."  (It is astounding that he
could make this statement after refusing requests from several major
recording artists over the previous two weeks! nc) He cited the songs "Mo
Thugs" or "Slap a Ho" by Dove Shack and shock rockers Marilyn Manson and
Cannibal Corpse as examples of problem songs and artists.  (These are the
same songs and artists that were attacked by C. Delores Tucker, Wm.
Bennett, Sen Lieberman, and Sen. Nunn in May of 1996. Can you cite a rise
in violence in music if you don�t take the time to listen to new artists?
nc) Sen. Brownback went on to quote a Carnegie Foundation study (these are
the same people speaker Dr. Stanley Roberts wrote for in 1990) which shows
teens spending less time with their parents and more time listening to
music.  He ended with saying that "it stands to reason that prolonged
exposure to such hate-filled lyrics . . . could have an effect on one�s
attitudes, assumptions, . . . decisions, and behavior.  Understanding the
nature and extent of the influence of music violence may well be the first
step . . . for ensuring a more civil society."

Senator Joseph Lieberman was the first to testify. His testimony began here
and continued from the dais. At the conclusion of his testimony he took his
seat next to Senator Brownback on the subcommittee and preceded every
question to a panelist with another 3 or 4 minutes further outlining his
beliefs.  He effectively manipulated the situation to provide himself with
2 hours worth of pontificating and captive media attention.

He spoke of our "broken culture", our "surreal, Alice-in-Wonderland"
culture in which kids our better armed than police, we celebrate brazen
luminaries like Dennis Rodman, and "don�t seem to blink when prominent
corporate citizens sell music to our children that celebrates violence".
He cited tv shows like Fox�s "When Animals Attack" and video games like
"Postal", and advertisers like Calvin Klein as perverse and degrading.  (He
also mentioned the songs Brownback did but spelled Ho wrong.nc) He wants to
take a close look at gangsta rap, stating that rappers celebrate murder and
mayhem on their cds then live it on the streets which led to Tupac�s and
B.I.G.�s deaths. He also outlined FBI investigations of Death Row as
evidence of the kind of people who produce this music.  He, as did every
one of the speakers said I�m not "talking about censorship". He wants
corporate responsibility on the part of recording companies, particularly
Seagrams and Sony, adoption of basic standards for music, Seagrams to
"dump" Marilyn Manson, and said "In the meantime, I hope the RIAA will
consider improving its one-size-fits-all labeling system".
I urge you to go to Lieberman�s website at:
http://www.senate.gov/member/ct/lieberman/releases/r110697c.html to read
his statement in its entirety.

The next speaker was Mr. Raymond Kuntz of Burlington, ND.  He tearfully
related the story of his son�s suicide.  When his wife went to wake their
son for school they found him dead of a gunshot wound, still wearing his
headphones with Marilyn Manson�s Anti-Christ Superstar cd still in the
player.  The boy�s favorite song was "The Reflecting God", the lyrics to
which were included in Mr. Kuntz packet. He also included,(and entered into
the record) an interview with Marilyn  from the June 96 issue of High
Times. Mr. Kuntz, in his statement called MM a "drug fiend" who publicly
uses drugs and, who takes LSD and then goes to Disney World. He reported
that MM, during his shows has exposed his genitalia, sodomized himself with
a stick which he then threw into the crowd, and asks fans to spit on him.

(Keep in mind here that after each testimony, Sen. Lieberman would repeat
and expound on the most "heinous" anti-music facts in each presentation.
After this one he shook his head and said something like ~imagine asking
people to spit on you in this time of Aids~. nc)

Dr. Frank Palumbo, of the American Academy of Peditarics, is a practicing
pediatrician from Washington DC. He referred to the AAP Committee on
Communications policy statements of December 1989 and 1995 as the official
statements of the Academy.
(new paragraph in his statement - does this mean that what follows are his
thoughts, not the thoughts of the Academy - it�s not clear. nc)
He acknowledged the importance of music in a teen�s identity. He outlined
the increase in violence, drugs, and sex in rock music over the past four
decades citing heavy metal and rap as being of greatest concern. He quoted
lyrics from Nine Inch Nails "Big Man with a Gun" and some MM lyrics as
examples.  He reports that "To date, no studies have documented a
cause-and-effect relationship between sexually explicit or violent lyrics
and adverse behavioral effects. But we can all acknowledge the overall
effect music has on people." (!?) He stated that music videos may have a
significant behavioral impact by desensitizing violence and reported that
music videos by Guns-N-Roses and Beastie Boys videos each had 36 violent
episodes in performing just one song.
(And, back to that war against teens, nc) he referred to a report entitled
"Kids These Days: What Americans Really Think About the Next Generation"
which decried sex and violence but reported that "only half of those
surveyed (49%) think pressuring the entertainment industry . . . will be a
very effective way to help kids" and that "perhaps people doubt that the
industry will be responsive to public pressure". Dr. Palumbo ended his
testimony with a list of recommendations one of which was for the "music
industry to develop and apply a system of specific content labeling
regarding violence, sex, drugs, or offensive lyrics,".

Hilary Rosen, President of the RIAA was the next to testify. Before
beginning she entered into the record Mass. M.I.C.�s anti-censorship
petition directed at Sen. Lieberman among others, containing 7836 sigs. by
young people across the country.  She also mentioned presenting introducing
statements by musicians although I never saw evidence of them.

In spite of extensive research in preparation for this hearing Hilary was
astoundingly ill prepared.  The message by the RIAA in the days preceding
the hearing was that pro-music pro-speech forces should try not to �upset�
the Senators.  In spite of obvious anti-music sentiments expressed by
committee members in meetings previous to the hearing, the RIAA
underestimated the seriousness of the attack and was not prepared to push
back.  Hilary was asked for sales figures for MM�s cd and others and "had
no idea", when asked for demographic information about purchasers of this
and other cds she also had "no idea".  Sen. Brownback reiterated those
questions several times and was obviously angry that she either didn�t know
or was hiding something.  Hilary�s statement began with references to Elvis
and teen suicide references in "Romeo and Juliet" (Brownback said he felt
it  was insulting to even compare MM to Shakespeare.nc)

Hilary expressed the industry�s concern and gave examples of musicians
working to combat teen violence, sex, drug use etc.  She cited Heavy D, Ice
Cube, and Queen Latifah.  (However, RIAA, chose not to facilitate the
participation of a prominent rap artist in presenting his concerns to the
Senators.  Even though they cite his contributions among these others in
their research materials.nc)  Hilary went on to describe the Musician�s
Assistance Program and "our"(?) Rock The Vote campaign.  She said that "by
no means" are our "artists perfect" and reported that there were scenes
from Chain Saw Massacre or NYPD Blue that she would not let a 10 yr. old
see.  She then reported on the "parental advisory sticker" program and said
that "We support efforts to have retailers restrict sales of albums to
consumers under the age of 17."!!!!

(~This is exactly the issue that got me into the fight to preserve free
expression in the first place in 1995.  At that time the RIAA was actively
fighting cities and states that tried to enforce this kind of censorship.
RIAA�s attitudes seem to have changed dramatically over these two years.
You have to ask yourself how damaging their attitudes toward preserving
free expression could be in another 2 years! nc~)

Hilary reported that in a record store with 110,000 titles, less than � of
one percent of a store�s total inventory will carry a parental advisory
logo. (and more than 3/4s of of those titles are by black artists - Hilary
didn�t say that, I did nc).  (Does that mean that mean that stickered
product is not meaningful or is expendable? nc)
She reported that record company execs constantly make choices to not put
out songs which don�t meet the test of artistic credibility.

(Brownback questioned her on this issue repeatedly.  He managed not to say
�you think MM has artistic credibility� but it was clearly what he was
getting at.)

She encouraged parents to read the lyrics to songs their kids brought home.
(Brownback mentioned at one point that he wished lyrics could be printed in
the paper!) Hilary also stressed that if a parent disapproves of something
their kids bought the record stores would take it back.

Hilary said "As long as there is an audience demanding to listen, there
will be people willing to produce artists far outside the mainstream." !
(reasons for a war against teens,nc)

During questioning after her prepared testimony Hilary stated music stores
�will not sell stickered product to those under 17�, (a fact which is
totally untrue and an amazingly stupid and dangerous statement on her
part.nc)  By the end of the hearing C. Delores Tucker produced a kid who
testified as to how easy it was for kids under 17 to buy stickered product,
that kids can find out �on the street� where they can buy - (now Hilary has
managed to make stickered product look like an illegal narcotic.  She�s
also practically told legislators to push for mandatory labeling and
restrictions! nc)

(Hilary Rosen was clearly not concerned with freedom of expression or in
protecting music from the attacks of these Senators.  We would have fared
better if she had not spoken at all.nc)

The final two panelists were C. Delores Tucker and Dr. Donald F. Roberts of
Stanford University.  Tucker showed up with her blown up photos of Marilyn
Manson and had the same inflammatory statements to make against rap and
rock.  Her testimony was totally unremarkable and there was nothing new
(for that reason and because my fingers are about to fall off I�ll not go
into details. I will forward a copy of her testimony to anyone who would
like one.)

Unfortunately I did not get a copy of Dr. Roberts testimony.  It was brief
and significantly similar to Dr. Palumbo�s in terms of statements about
music�s effect on young people. Of note is the fact that Senator Lieberman
welcomed Dr. Roberts by saying that he was glad to see him and that they
had worked together before on these �important issues�. (enough said,nc).

As the hearing was about to end, Ms. Tucker begged that the young boy she�d
brought along "all this way" have a chance to speak.  Brownback�s initial
response was that he couldn�t allow it because so many others had asked to
speak but were refused.  Tucker begged a bit more and Brownback consented.
The boy testified as to how easy it was to buy "stickered" cds if you were
under 17 (which Brownback made sure he repeated a few times) and then the
young man described the satanic fans who had invaded his neighborhood
before an MM concert "doing violent stuff" like "smashing windshields."

At this point Michael Eric Dyson asked from his seat, if in the interest of
fairness, he be allowed to speak also.  Brownback refused him. (Dyson had
repeatedly sought an opportunity to appear at the hearing  and Jesse
Jackson had written to Brownback on his behalf asking that Dyson be heard,
all to no avail).

The hearing adjourned to a press conference in the hall. Speakers there
were Dyson, myself, and Bill Adler.  Mr. Dyson spoke eloquently on the
hearings, the bias in the panels, these repeated attacks on rap, and the
"mean spirited" tactic of Ms. Tucker among other things.  I spoke for a
couple of minutes after which Mr. Tucker pushed his way through the crowd
of reporters rushing Dyson and saying he was furious at how Dyson had
described his wife and that he would "die" protecting her reputation.
Several people stepped in to pull Mr. Tucker back while Michael Dyson
calmly stood by his previous statements.  As Mr. Tucker was pulled away he
pointed at Dyson saying that "the next time we meet you�d better bring an
extra pair of glasses, �cause you�re going to need them."  All of this was
caught on film.  Security then ended the press conference.

That�s pretty much what took place.  A real disaster for free speech and
for music.
Nina




Fight Censorship - Listen to the Banned!
             Mass. M.I.C.
http://www.ultranet.com/~crowleyn/mmic.html







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 11 15:35:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:35:55 +0800
Subject: Content controls
In-Reply-To: <v02140b10b08a1ba0a4ac@[198.115.135.201]>
Message-ID: <v0310280db08e8afb9644@[207.167.93.63]>



At 1:57 PM -0700 11/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Once you have given me the keys to unlock and display the data I can save
>it, copy it, reproduce it and distribut it. To assume otherwise shows a
>lack of understanding of computer systems and moderen OS's. Sure I would
>need to write some software and jump through some hoops to do it but there
>is nothing that your system can do to prevent me from doing so. Now wether
>it is worth the effort to do so will depend on the value of the data
>involved. Once you have given me the ability to display the data you have
>lost the battle as I can do whatever I want with it.

Exactly so. Once able to go into the listener's ears, the viewer's
eyeballs, or the customer's whatever, the battle is basically lost.

About the best that can be hoped for is to insert some "almost unnoticeable
mark"--a watermark, a notch filter (a la early scheme for combatting DAT
piracy), etc. And even these "almost unoticeable marks" are easily twiddled
away. Unless they are so noticeable that serious image or sound distortion
occurs when the marks are removed or obscured.

Even purely digital works are easily copied. Even unique IDs per software
piece are easily removed (e.g., by having N customers compare and diff out
the noncommon bits).

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 11 15:43:43 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:43:43 +0800
Subject: Selling a Persistent Identity
Message-ID: <199711112333.RAA02693@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

How would you sell a persistent identity with a good reputation?

The obvious method of selling the secret key doesn't work because the
buyer has to trust the seller not to resell it.  This could be solved
by revealing your True Name, but that's no fun.  A nym with a good
reputation for this sort of business could be used, but that wouldn't
be any fun either since it could link a series of identities with one
source.

The only thing I can think of is to have a trusted party who creates
and manages the key.  When the owner of the key wants to sign
something, he or she sends it to the trusted party for signing and
transmission.  To sell the key, the trusted party is instructed to
accept the buyer's messages instead of the seller's.  The buyer and
the seller never actually possess the key themselves.

Is there a better way to do this?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov 11 15:46:44 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:46:44 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111233358.00a03ac8@pop.pipeline.com>



Dumb of me to get in the middle of this, but the bloodlust's
up:

Tim's statements are gutsy and right: there's no gain
in self-censoring, shading one's anger to appease
the goons of whatever firepower. (Bob, go to end.)

Most massive firepower can't focus on or hit exclusively
small targets, that's what's a lie about "surgical" strikes. 
Waste the countryside, yes, hit one rabbit and not the
beloved dog and fellow hunter, little chance. What it
takes is sharpshooting: a one shot, one target, one
pig, one sticker.

True, Horushi's snipe worked, it nailed an innocent, though
a couple of others died to set him up for his own nailing.

True, Waco worked, it charred a crowd of innocents, though a
few others got plugged setting up the roast, and the 2nd roast.

True, firebombing works, as does mass weaponing --nukes, 
chemicals and germs -- but indiscriminately, by terrorism
of the masses, at the price of also terrifying the citizenry 
paying for the megadeath heritage.

All standoff firepower is limited against the individual by 
imprecision of the killing machines and cowardice of the
operators -- artillery, planes, ships, satellites, take your
pick. They savage territory to save the operator's ass,
who, as anyone knows who been around these candyass
strutters, aint got what it takes to cut the guy's throat
who's stabbing your eye.

What's my point? Well, for lack of a better word, it's personal
courage, going nuts when the time's right, the guts to not shut 
the fuck up when you're told to by those who're a whole lot 
bigger, who've got more armaments and thinks they're smarter 
and more ruthless and meaner and have the troops, rank and 
medals to back it up. Just remember that most of those strengths 
are for getting somebody else or a machine to do what is too 
fucking terrifying to do yourself directly.

Do this when the monster accosts: pull your forelock, say sorry 
sir, then upstab the fucker's groin, as he doubles, hack the cord, 
he'll go down quivering, then cut out his liver, kick up his green 
face, squat close, show him the blob, take a bite, chew, savor, 
swallow, put lip to dying ear, whisper, "tasty."

Go home, get a beer, stare the tube, sharpen your tool. Or as
maddog Tim sez, lock and load.

But look, I'm with Bob, too, my tool's philosophy gone berzerk,
trash words, wags, gags, alliterations, mouth shooting. My steel 
weapons are locked from burglars who scare the shit out of me just
by looking like ordinarily ugly wall streeters, that is, like my maddog 
neighbors eyeing me for junk IPO sales.

Sure glad my war's long over, happily getting dimmer, easier to forget
the godawful. Hey, it's veteran's day, anybody want to croak and limp 
to glories past?







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 11 16:20:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:20:38 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <199711112359.AAA07968@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> In the infamous "Twenty-Nine Palms" poll of soldiers, asking if troops
> would fire on civilians if ordered to carry out an order, the longer the
> soldier had been in the service, the less likely he was to say he would.
> (The context of this order is generally believed to be related to a
> Department of Defense involvement in the wholesale disarming of the
> population under a state of emergency, FEMA or U.N. orders, etc.)

  Note that "Twenty-Nine Palms" was the military home/liason of those
involved in the INSLAW travesty. (Everyone _not_ working for the 
Department of Justice who can say "Fuck You" to Congress and get away 
with it, raise your hand.)
 
> This is consistent with the military retireds I know being _extremely_
> anti-government. Usually with a right-wing flavor, but then that is
> understandable.

  It is a fact that we tend to narrow our range of perception when we
get involved in any cult/religion/organization and bestow some of our
own innate responsibility/authority upon them. Once separated from
the group, however, we then tend to regain more control over our
individual beliefs and values, whereupon we are more likely to recognize
where we stepped beyond or own moral/ethical values while caught up,
to whatever extent, in 'group mind.'
  This has been discussed on the list (e.g. Declan goes to Washington!)
and, thankfully, we have a weird enough assortment of not-quite-normal
SubGenius Bizzaro CypherPundits to keep us pissing all over ourselves
and one another to make the possibility of us becoming dues-paying
members of the CypherSheeple Union a remote possibility.

  A CypherPunk nuking DC would not be a tragedy. What would be a tragedy
would be if, after being asked "Why?", he or she turned around to ask
'the group', "Uuhhh...why did I do that, again? Hey! Where did everybody
go?"

  Any physical war or revolution in the future will be largely dependent
upon the success of the parallel InfoWar designed to direct (or prevent)
the thinking of those who the government provides with weapons and
authority.
  We need as many of them as possible to be smiling inwardly to
themselves
when they say, "My gun is loaded, Sarge...and I'm 'right behind' you,
all
the way."

LoadAndUnlockMonger







From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Tue Nov 11 16:24:04 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:24:04 +0800
Subject: Gun Control brings on a New Arms Race
Message-ID: <199711112344.PAA18904@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>(A friend of a friend scored a "cold" Glock 17L...$400 in "NQA"
>condition, immediate delivery.)

What is a "cold" weapon?  What does "NQA" mean?

Thanks.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 11 16:25:34 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:25:34 +0800
Subject: Control Freaks on the Rampage
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b08e992878f7@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v0310280fb08e92bf695f@[207.167.93.63]>



At 4:22 PM -0700 11/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>***************
>
>[Forwarded with permission. --Declan]
>
>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:53:02 -0500
>From: Nina Crowley <crowleyn at ultranet.com>
>Subject: Senate hearing summary
>
>Hi,
>This is really long but I think everyone should get a sense of the lynch
>mob mentality in last weeks Senate subcommittee hearing.
...the usual Congressional moves to shred the Constitution in the "name of
the children and everything that is decent."

This is all part of the death of a thousand cuts the Constitution is
undergoing, with new laws proposed faster by the subsidized vermin in
Congress than civil rights and liberty-advocating groups can respond.

Mandatory voluntary self-labelling, the CDA, the Swinestein ban on
bomb-making information on the Net, mandatory voluntary television ratings,
jawboning the cable industry, the suit against Paladin Press for a book,
the key escrow proposals, the PICS voluntary mandatory standard, Save the
Children, Donna Rice and her lap dancing compatriots, regulation of
Internet commerce, and Protection of the Critical Information
Infrastructure. (I assume you're all familiar with these examples, and
more.)

The death of a thousand cuts is that even if 900 or 980 of them are struck
down, overturned, derailed, or bypassed, the remaining cuts kill.

"Congress shall make no law..." doesn't mean "except if saves just _one_
child's life."

"Congress shall make no law..." doesn't mean "unless FEMA and Office of
Emergency Preparedness issue orders to the contrary."

"Congress shall make no law..." doesn't mean "Congress can threaten the
music industry with unconstitutional actions which will cost lots of money
to fight unless the music industry voluntary self-regulates."

"Congress shall make no law..." doesn't mean a thousand local jurisdictions
get to ban books, censor CD lyrics, restrict birth control information, ban
certain kinds of guns, or otherwise violate the U.S. Constitution (which
all states agreed to adhere to as a condition of their admittance to the
Union).

A lot of us are getting really tired of fighting the same battles over and
over again. It's time the Supreme Court said the same thing. Perhaps if
they issued a clearcut rebuke Congress might get the message, something
like:

"Look, free speech means you guys can't censor music, or lyrics, or books,
or hymnals, or just about anything else. And you can't use the threat of
passing legislation which we'll be dutybound to strike down to "pressure"
writers and publishers into accepting this Orwelllian notion of "mandatory
voluntary" self-regulation. Get this through your heads. "

I'm not holding my breath.

Sometimes I hope for a terrorist nuke in downtown Washington.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Tue Nov 11 16:33:47 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:33:47 +0800
Subject: Secure Hashing for Entropy
Message-ID: <199711112344.PAA18932@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Often we have a source of entropy whose output we use as the input to
a secure hash function.

Does it matter if the hashing function is secure?  I don't think so.
All that really matters is that the function hashes evenly so that any
input string is about as likely as any other input string to result in
a particular hash.  Even if the hash function is weak and collisions
can be found, if it is even the same level of entropy is still
available.

Have I got this right?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm


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From eff at dev.null  Tue Nov 11 16:34:10 1997
From: eff at dev.null (EFF)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:34:10 +0800
Subject: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <199711112033.PAA04786@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3468EED3.3F3A@dev.null>



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Paul Bradley <paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:

> >> usually we ignore people at your level, but we'll try our best for you, as
> >> it might be just temorary insanity.
 
> >Anyone have the same suspicions as me as to who is marketing VME, I`ll
> >guess trh same guy (his name escapes me for now) who spent a few weeks on
> > the list earlier this year touting his unbreakable encryption scheme
> >based on LCSRs.

> Well this moron, whoever he may be has threaten to "have papers served" on
> me in regards to my last post of this topic.
> 
> I am still unsure if it is actually someone from this company making these
> posts. The poster still has not figured out how to make use of digital
> signatures nor is he/she/it willing to put a name on their posts (hmmmm
> what was their remark about cowards hiding behind anonymity??).
> 
> I guess we will see how far they are willing to take this or if it is just
> the work of crafty operators from the EFF (Electronic Forgery Foundation).

  Nope. The EFF are just helpless victims of this rude asshole.
Please send the $50.00 you were planning to give to Nonookie
Masturbatshi
for his Musky source code to the EFF instead, so that we can get drunk
and heal our fragile egos.

EFFeminantMonger







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 11 16:43:49 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:43:49 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971111233358.00a03ac8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102810b08e98b7d044@[207.167.93.63]>



At 4:33 PM -0700 11/11/97, John Young wrote:
>Dumb of me to get in the middle of this, but the bloodlust's
>up:
>
>Tim's statements are gutsy and right: there's no gain
>in self-censoring, shading one's anger to appease
>the goons of whatever firepower. (Bob, go to end.)

One need only think back to the words of Patrick Henry, Jefferson, Thomas
Paine, and all the others. No doubt Bob H. would have argued that they
should cool their anger, silence their words, and not give King George a
"good reason" to crack down on the Colonies.

Or tell Eugene Debs to stop talking about the illegality of the draft and
stop talking about the mistake of entering the Great War to support some
duchies and satrapies. (Debs was jailed for his _speech_...so much for the
First Amendment, even back in the 1918 time period.)

And so on. Throughout history there have been those who spoke their mind.
And others who told them to cool it, to not anger the local prince, to not
rock the boat.

While I don't necessarily put myself  in their class, it's clear to me that
America stands for basically libertarian principles, of letting people say
and read whatever they damned well please. This can include denying the
Holocaust, preaching the Gospel of Satan, calling for certain judges to be
taken out into the parking lot and executed by firing squad, or even
calling for the overthrow of the government.

When we let the spectre of crackdowns by Louis Freeh and Janet Reno cause
us to self-censor ourselves, then they have well and truly won.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From pcw at access.digex.net  Tue Nov 11 16:51:02 1997
From: pcw at access.digex.net (Peter Wayner)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:51:02 +0800
Subject: Bug Bounty: Disappearing Cryptography...
Message-ID: <v03102840b08e3595d3ba@[199.125.128.5]>




My publisher is preparing to reprint my book _Disappearing
Cryptography_. As part of a general maintence scheme, I'm
offering a reward of $10.00 for the first person to discover a
technical error found in the book. Find as many as you can and
win some cash.


Naturally, there are some limitations to the offer:

* Only the first person to report an error is eligible for the
reward. The final decision in the case of a tie, will be up to
me. The ties will be broken using the time my SMTP server
(access.digex.net) receives the mail. I reserve the right to
give out multiple rewards in the case of a tie or a close
finish. In fact, I'll aim to do this. I just don't want the
situtation to emerge where everyone can send me the same bug
report and feel eligible for a reward.

* Some multiple errors may only count once. Imagine that the
third page was missing from the book. Technically, all following
pages would be misnumbered. I reserve the right to group any
collection of bugs together and label them one error. I will use
this right judiciously to avoid hair splitting arguments, but
not to deny people multiple rewards. The more errors that are
fixed, the better.

* Grammar errors aren't eligible, but I welcome any comments.
These disputes are often more issues of taste than rule.

-Peter Wayner







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 11 16:52:56 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:52:56 +0800
Subject: Gun Control brings on a New Arms Race
In-Reply-To: <199711112344.PAA18904@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102812b08e9ce1cac8@[207.167.93.63]>



At 4:44 PM -0700 11/11/97, Monty Cantsin wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Tim May wrote:
>>(A friend of a friend scored a "cold" Glock 17L...$400 in "NQA"
>>condition, immediate delivery.)
>
>What is a "cold" weapon?  What does "NQA" mean?

Cold = no paperwork, no report to authorities, no waiting period.

NQA = No Questions Asked

(I can't believe I have to explain to Monty Cantsin these things, which
ought to be deducible from context. Especially in combination. And
especially with the "immediate delivery" redundancy added.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Nov 11 16:57:44 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:57:44 +0800
Subject: Content controls
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db08e8afb9644@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <8k61Fe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May <tcmay at got.net> writes:
> Even purely digital works are easily copied. Even unique IDs per software
> piece are easily removed (e.g., by having N customers compare and diff out
> the noncommon bits).

About 15 years ago I was trying to break the code in some software
distributed by some Canadian folks... (It was cheap to buy, and
I was doing it for fun.) Basically, every customer's executables
were almost completely different because they were encrypted with
a totally different key and decrypted at runtime.  The trick was to
disassemble the decryption code and to compare the decryption
results from two copies to see where the customer name was embedded.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Nov 11 17:01:30 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:01:30 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb08e6e08c8f3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <F851Fe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May <tcmay at got.net> writes:
> >On the other hand, Tim, I suppose, there *is* Bosnia as a prima facie
> >counterexample, and I bet that *that* little fandango probably started with
> >a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself to be these
> >days.
>
> More typical Bob Hettinga insult arguments. You ought to form a club with
> Kent Crispin, Detweiler, and Vulis.

No, thanks.

(I think Detweiler is cool, but I wouldn't want to be in any club with
either Hettiga or Crispin :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From matrix at meganet.com  Tue Nov 11 17:13:36 1997
From: matrix at meganet.com (VME Encryption)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:13:36 +0800
Subject: ???
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971111165503.006da60c@ibcnet.com>



Dear Bill Geiger,

My first reacation to your followup letter was getting more upset, and I
almost replied with another mad letter. But then I decided to better myself
and see who I'm dealing with.

I've looked at your web site, and looks like you might be a nice person.
So, I tried to figure out the reason for the previous vicious letter that
was completely unjustified and the following attacks you placed.

I'll take it from the point that you might not know all the facts and
explain. If that's not enough, I'm sorry.

1) The million dollars challenge is no longer valid for the last 3 months.
2) The current challenge bares NO monetary prize.
3) VME flowcharts, algorithm AND a working application is in the hands of
250 software companies for evaluation (Microsoft, IBM etc.)
4) We can not put it on the net, due to strict US export rules (as you
mention in your web site as well)
5) Our program, flowcharts & algorithm have been filed with the US patent
office and will be public domain within a year.

If that helps explain our part, I'm glad. And if not, it's o.k. - it's a
free country and everybody is entitled to their own mind. It's just feel
sheety to be attacked by strangers that knows nothing about you, specially
people that you might think should have some interest in keeping the
individual right to privacy from government and te likes.

We started this challenge with some goals in mind, but fighting with a
group of cryptographers was not one of them. If anyone wants more technical
data, we'll be glad to submit what we can under the circumstances, if
someone wants to keep of flaming us, it's o.k. - but we won't respond anymore.

Thanks,

Project Management.

At 09:17 AM 11/11/97 -0600, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.32.19971110100935.006d91b0 at ibcnet.com>, on 11/10/97 
>   at 01:09 PM, VME Encryption <matrix at meganet.com> said:
>
>>I rest my case. Please email me your mailing address for the purpose of
>>serving and we'll meet in court.
>
>Serve whatever you want, I will be glad to forward them to my lawyers.
>
>Just out of curiosity do you threaten to sue everyone who says somthing
>you don't like??
>
>BTW: you should keep posting *publicly* I showed the thread from the
>CP-List and sci.crypt to my lawyers yesterday. They laughed so hard they
>bought me free drinks at the clubhouse. Who knows a few more posts from
>you and I may be able to get a steak dinner out of them. :)
>
>- -- 
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
            
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>Version: 2.6.3a
>Charset: cp850
>Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
>
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>=byvY
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>






From powerbiz at valumall.com  Wed Nov 12 09:28:13 1997
From: powerbiz at valumall.com (powerbiz at valumall.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:28:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: me again
Message-ID: <944099045634QHL76615@com>


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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        Secret to Permanent Wealth!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was given your name as someone likely to be 
interested in becoming wealthy. If this was 
an error, please go to:
http://www.mmaildirect.com/~valumall/remove.htm
You will be put on a list of those who do not 
wish to become financially independent. Thanks!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 12 09:40:29 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:40:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: DCSB: James O'Toole on Digital Coupons and Distributed Commerce
Message-ID: <v031107d3b08f94ebaca4@[139.167.130.248]>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



               The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                            Presents

                        Dr. James O'Toole
                        Open Market, Inc.

              Digital Coupons and Distributed Commerce

                      Tuesday, December 2, 1997
                             12 - 2 PM
                 The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                   One Federal Street, Boston, MA


Jim says,

"Open Market's Transact commerce system version 3.0 introduces
new Digital Coupon capabilities that enable merchants to create
price promotion and special discount offers for their customers.
Digital Coupons provide a secure way for an online merchant to
easily implement repricing rules that a Transact-based distributed
commerce system uses to adjust prices at the point of sale.
This talk will include a brief overview of Open Market's commerce
product suite and their architecture.  I will explain how Digital
Coupons work, provide concrete details of how Transact 3.0
processes coupons and their impact on APIs, screens, and smart
statements.  I will also discuss the implications of digital coupons
and similar artifacts on the design of distributed commerce solutions
that rely on trusted intermediaries."

Dr. O'Toole is a senior member of the research and advanced development
staff of Open Market.  His current focus is on technology development and
software product architecture.  In 1997, Jim was responsible for the
conception of Open Market's Digital Coupon products.  Prior to joining Open
Market in 1996, Jim completed his Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering and
Computer Science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, November 4, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$32.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, November 29, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $32.50. Please include your e-mail
address, so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

January   Joseph Reagle        "Social Protocols": Meta-data
                                 and Negotiation in Digital Commerce
February  Donald Eastlake      SET


We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah at shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo at ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo at ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston



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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 11 18:07:45 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:07:45 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <199711112359.AAA07968@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780cb08eb84bcb02@[168.161.105.216]>



At 00:59 +0100 11/12/97, Anonymous wrote:
>  It is a fact that we tend to narrow our range of perception when we
>get involved in any cult/religion/organization and bestow some of our
>own innate responsibility/authority upon them. Once separated from
>the group, however, we then tend to regain more control over our
>individual beliefs and values, whereupon we are more likely to recognize
>where we stepped beyond or own moral/ethical values while caught up,
>to whatever extent, in 'group mind.'
>  This has been discussed on the list (e.g. Declan goes to Washington!)

Heh. It's been discussed but no findings of fact have been made.

Ever since I moved back to Washington (I've lived here twice before) to
take a job as a political Net-reporter, my social circle has included many
folks with similar political beliefs. There's my S.O., who's an "Abolish
the FCC" Net and telecommunications lawyer. The Cato soccer team I'm on. My
friends, many of whom are involved in (or at least care about) issues like
crypto.

And there's also the more interesting question of the cypherpunks list as
an organization that influences the political stances of its participants.
If I hadn't been a cypherpunks subscriber for three years or so, would my
political beliefs be the same? I'm not sure.

-Declan







From matrix at meganet.com  Tue Nov 11 18:08:57 1997
From: matrix at meganet.com (VME Encryption)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:08:57 +0800
Subject: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971111175921.006da60c@ibcnet.com>



Dear Paul,

I'll ignore all profanities and go straight to the points you make:

1) Never heard of LCSR (or whatever) and we market our product ourself,
Meganet Corporation from California USA.

2) AOL, NCR, Perot Systems & dozens other have already looked into the
product and contaced us, so yes, they did saw it and liked what they saw.

3) you use a lot of acronyms - what is CMR ? LCSR ?

4) If you've been misinformed, then I hope that straighten it up for you,
and if you're still upset about whatever, may god bless you.

more info at www.meganet.com

If you want more info and can keep a decent language, email us back. If you
preffer to keep on flaming, cool for you, but we won't bother answering.

p.s. - I wonder if you know what's the source of all the bad rep we've got
- nobody knows us and we never posted anything on your forum, so what the
heck ?

Thanks.






From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov 11 18:14:58 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:14:58 +0800
Subject: FRB Crypto Systems
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971112020047.00a4d1e0@pop.pipeline.com>



Federal Register, November 10, 1997

Excerpt from a Federal Reserve Bank announcement:

      ... the Reserve Banks plan to change their policy 
for ownership of the encryption boards used by depository 
institutions with dial and multi-drop connections. These 
encryption boards are currently purchased and owned by the 
depository institutions. With the replacement of the 
encryption boards beginning in the second half of 1998 to 
enhance the security of the Federal Reserve's communications 
network, the Reserve Banks plan to purchase and assume 
ownership of these boards. This approach is consistent with 
Reserve Bank ownership of other equipment at depository 
institutions that is required for electronic connections to 
the Federal Reserve, specifically link encryptors and 
signaling equipment. Reserve Bank ownership should improve 
management of the security of the network and facilitate the 
implementation of an all-electronic key distribution system. 
This change in policy may affect future-year electronic 
connection fees, as priced services must recover depreciation 
costs associated with the new encryption boards.

----------

Are these systems related to Kawika Daguio's comments on
PCCIP forwarded by Declan yesterday? Anyone have more
detailed info on the boards and link encryptors?






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From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 11 18:24:13 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:24:13 +0800
Subject: "Lynch mob mentality" at Senate violent music hearing
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b08e992878f7@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <3468FF84.32D4@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [Forwarded with permission. --Declan]
 
> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:53:02 -0500
> From: Nina Crowley <crowleyn at ultranet.com>
> Subject: Senate hearing summary
> 
>                 Senate Subcommittee Hearing
> 
> Senator Sam Brownback�s subcommittee hearing on the possible effect of
> music violence on society was a major disaster for music and freedom of
> expression.
> 
> The hearing, held on Nov.6, for 2 hours, had a very restricted list of
> speakers.  For the two weeks previous to the hearing I and many others
> applied to testify and were denied.  Brownback�s staff member in charge of
> overseeing the panels was Cherie Harder.  (Ms. Harder appeared in the Oct.
> 19 MTV special "Fight for the Right" representing  Empower America.)  Ms.
> Harder was doggedly dedicated to preserving the short and biased list of
> speakers, refusing to consider additional speakers or an extended hearing
> time allotment.

  This illustrates *exactly* why maintaining freedom from censorship
on the InterNet is vitally important to help preserve what is left of
democracy in America.
  No matter what stance you take on this or that issue, one of the chief
underlying issues of democracy is the opportunity to have your voice
heard, or be heard via a balanced mix of representative voices.

  The citizen's right to _participate_ in democracy is denied even when
those who oppose them have their voices stifled.
  The strong shout out and/or silence the weak in the Halls of Power 
in America, and what is reported to the citizens by the mainstream
media is a dilution of this already aldulterated product of our
power-mongering politicians.

  None of us is likely to hear a desciption or report on this meeting
that is as accurate or comprehensive as that provided by Nina Crowley,
via Declan McCullagh, in the media's thirty second sound-bytes.
  Even more in-depth portrayals of the proceedings by the media still
inevitably reflect what those in power have put in the public media 
display-case. Those in power use manipulation, secrecy, and 'National
Security' to keep the citizens from learning the proverbial 'rest of
the story' long enough for them to retire with their reputations 
and their fortunes intact.
  Last week came the 'news' that Richard Nixon was an active and
knowing participant in the Watergate crimes. _News_? Give me a
break.

  The reality is that the InterNet is a media which currently allows
us to listen to the voices that were stifled by the power-mongers,
if we choose to do so. As well, we can listen to another voice in
a following post that explains why Nina Crowley is a drug-dealing,
terrorist pedophile.
  No doubt there are those ready and willing to 'save' us all from
Ms. Crowley's erronious facts/opinions, as well as those who are
equally ready and willing to 'save' us from those of her detractors.
  If we allow our 'saviours' to throw as many concrete lifesavers
to us on the InterNet as we have allowed those in government and 
society to do, to date, it won't be long until there is nothing
left to save.

  The 'Tree of Liberty' has a lot of branches, and I, for one, do
not plan to hang alone. I've got a rope, too...

TruthMonger







From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 11 18:25:52 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:25:52 +0800
Subject: Washington Post on dangers of self-censorship for the Net
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b08e94374f6b@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <34690F26.7819@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> The Washington Post
> November 10, 1997
> EDITORIAL; Pg. A20
> 'Self-Regulation' and the Net
> 
>    CLOSE WATCHERSs of the long-running TV ratings fight could read it as a
> series of tussles over exactly how far the government can go in pushing the
> proprietors of an expressive medium -- such as TV -- to curb that
> expression through "voluntary" action. When do carrot-and-stick become just
> stick? That story isn't over yet: Congress, though antsy, has so far
> managed to stay on the safe side of the line that separates pressure from
> outright censorship, and the different responses of different networks is
> ironic proof that the policy isn't completely coercive. But those who want
> to see yet more variations on the theme can watch the whole pattern play
> out again in White House efforts to encourage self-regulation on the
> Internet.

  On the InterNet the patterns will be Global, which means the censors
will have to act Globally (United Nations / New World Order), divide up 
the international pie into geopolitical slices, or a combination of
both.

  The InterNet and TV are not going to be separate entities for very
long, and the same applies to phones, faxes, etc.
  As a Canadian, I am 'allowed' to see bare tits on TV, even in prime
time on News Channel shows such as 'Fashion File.' I am not, however,
allowed to express hate toward coloreds, kikes, ragheads, wagon burners,
or left-handed people in general, on the InterNet. As an American, the
situation seems to be reversed.
  In the globalization of the combined media, it seems logical to assume
that the result will be either _both_ of the above being 'allowed,' or
_neither_ of them being 'allowed.' We can expect that the inanities and
injustices which take place on a regional basis, at present, will be
taking place on a global basis, in the future, with the Jackboots of
fascist censorship being wielded in bizarre and random ways.

  If a person in Utah (?) can be prosecuted for a child in another state
accessing material that is consided 'illegal' a thousand miles away,
then everyone who puts a picture of a female with her ankles showing
on the InterNet can potentially be prosecuted by Iraq. (In reality,
only our Iranian allies, not our Iraquian enemies, would be allowed
to exercise this 'right.')
  Anyone who disputes the above possibility should ask themselves if
they have more oil than Iran. History contains manifold examples of
the citizens being nothing more than pawns in the rulers games of
power and wealth.
  (Hell, the government doesn't even give a fat rat's ass about the
   medical problems of the citizens who went overseas to defend our
   source of foreign oil.)

 >    The administration, after coming to grief over its dogged support
for
> the unconstitutional Communications Decency Act, now takes the position
> that it's up to software providers, parents and citizen groups to make the
> Internet safe for children, though the government has a beefed-up role to
> play in enforcing existing laws in cyberspace, for instance, those against
> child pornography, stalking or harassment. As an accompaniment, though, it
> is putting considerable public pressure on Internet players to develop a
> system of ratings and "taggings" for sites that would allow parents to sort
> Internet access by a few broadly agreed-upon categories.

  In preparation for the justice system to point out that 'everbody
agrees'
that you and I are criminals.
  "We don't want to 'take' your guns, we just want to 'register' them,
for
your protection."
  We have fallen for the "taking your freedom, privacy and rights away
for
your own protection--an inch at a time" scam time and time again. If we
allow it to be done on the InterNet, it will be for the _last_ time.

  We are now dealing with GLOBAL rights and freedoms. This is very
important
to understand! We are not talking about our rights as an American, our
freedom as a Canadian, our privacy as an African. We are talking about
our rights and freedoms as a human being! 

> Ira
> Magaziner, the administration point-person on Net issues, took a different
> tone in a speech to Internet advertisers. The "tremendous economic
> benefits" of the Net won't work, he said, "if we don't get efficient
> industry self-regulation on issues like privacy and content. . . . If you
> fail, we will have to go the legislative route. That gets caught up in the
> political process and will be less rational and efficient."

  Translation~~"How dare you call it Jackboot Fascism if we promise only
to kick you if you don't comply?"

>    Well, yes -- and also less legal. Don't get us wrong: Self-restraint, in
> some of these cases, is a pretty good place for the providers of what's now
> called "content" to end up. But the line between urging self-restraint and
> threatening government censorship is a thin one. The White House, no less
> than Congress, needs to watch its step.

  The self-restraint should be applied by the children and their
parents.
Try defending yourself in any court of law by claiming that the fault
lies with others for not restraining you from breaking into their house
while they were gone, from not having better theft-protection for their
automobile.
  How have we come to the point where a burglar can sue you for falling
down your basement steps? How have we come to the point where a cop can
arrest you for sleeping in your car instead of driving drunk? How have
we come to the point where someone a thousand miles away can purposely
access your personal web site in order to have you imprisoned for
doing something which is perfectly legal in your physical location,
and many others?

  The bottom line is that censorship and fascism are going Global, in
all its forms, and this will only result in our falling under an ever
increasing multitude of laws, regulations, prohibitions and taboos.
  Whenever something is allowed in one physical space and prohibited
in another, the chances are that the merger/interaction of those
spaces will result in prohibition, or restriction (followed by
prohibition).

  This time the fight is Global. It is for ALL of the marbles!

  As always, 'they' only want Austria...'they' only want the dangerous
guns...'they' only want the Jews...'they' only want to prohibit nude
pictures of people under the age of 16...18...20...50...100.
  'They' only want to take away the freedoms and rights of the 'bad' 
people. Are you going to allow them to do that, indiscriminately,
without a fight, because _you_ are not one of the 'bad' people...today?

  You don't live in Austria, you don't own guns, you are not Jewish
and you have no nude pictures, so you are safe...for now.
  However, if your ankles are showing, or your head is uncovered...
tomorrow...

  'They' are going to think regionally, and act globally. Count on it!

TruthMonger






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 11 18:35:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:35:46 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <199711120215.DAA28008@basement.replay.com>



>Leaving aside the problem with a system where a judge can overturn the
>decision of a Jury (I have not seen all of the evidence so have no idea
>if she is guilty or innocent but if you enter a country you implicitly
>agree to abide by their laws and legal system, however what is the point
>of having a Jury if the Judge can do this sort of thing?) then the actual
>problem is the length of time that Jim is spending in prison and nothing
>to do with the Woodward case at all. It just goes to illustrate, once again,
>how laws are selectively enforced and procedures slowed in order to punish
>people who can not otherwise be punished as much as the administration would
>like to.

Throwing the woman in jail for eight months without her ever being convicted
is itself an injustice. She should have been aquitted because of that bit of
bullshit alone. Yes the same goes for anybody else who is punished in any
way before they are convicted.

That aside, you ask what the point of having a jury is if the judge can
overturn a conviction. There's no problem with the judge overturning a
conviction if the evidence warrants it, if the trial was a joke, or
something along those lines. We don't convict people in this country based
on what the public thinks of them, and that includes a jury. If the jury
convicts somebody when the evidence doesn't warrant a conviction --
regardless of the reason why they convicted them, which may be as inane as
"But he *might* have been gay, and Jesus doesn't like that" -- it is the
judge's duty in the interests of justice to overturn the conviction.

If the judge is overturning aquittals, then we have problems. And I would
suggest we lock and load if the judge had done that and thrown her in prison.
As it is, I only suggest that everyone lock and load because they threw her
in jail before she was convicted. She hadn't yet had her trial, so she
shouldn't have been in jail, period.

The same goes for Jim Bell, his "crimes," and his waiting 7 months for
sentencing.

Lock and load.






From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 11 18:47:13 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:47:13 +0800
Subject: More Crypto Statements
Message-ID: <v0300780db08ebbefa606@[168.161.105.216]>



What explains this flurry of crypto-statements on the floor of the Senate
on Saturday and Sunday?

Simple: Our elected representatives had nothing else to do.

By late Sunday evening, the vote over fast-track had been postponed ten
times as union and corporate lobbyists jockeyed for position with the White
House for votes. While smoke was filling the back rooms of the Capitol,
members had nothing else to do but twiddle their thumbs. Debate
noncontroversial legislation. Recount election battles. And pledge loyalty
to strong crypto.

Of course increased (or at least more effective) industry lobbying had
something to do with the floor statements. These sorts of brief speeches
are a sign of a well-honed lobbying campaign.

Note, BTW, the tone of the Senate statements. The defeat of Burns' ProCODE
bill in the Senate means that crypto-proponents are on the defensive.
Murray is forced to say S.909 (McCain-Kerrey) "does not go far enough" in
lifting export ctrls -- true, since it also sets up a key escrow
infrastructure. There is no pro-crypto bill in the Senate now for
crypto-advocates to rally around. (Leahy's is a key escrow wishlist.)

Also note that Dreier's statements are significant: "Congress should lift
the controls on encryption software" and not move towards mandatory key
escrow. He is a senior member of the House Rules committee, which will pass
judgement on and reconcile the five versions of SAFE sooner or later. One
of those versions is the FBI-friendly one with restrictions on manufacture,
distribution, and sale of unapproved crypto products.

-Declan


At 20:20 -0500 11/10/97, John Young wrote:
>Declan, anyone, is this flood of statements due to an
>industry campaign, or one by Majortiy Leader Lott,
>or Speaker Gingrich, or a combination, or what?
>
>What's your insider intel, Declan, will these initiatives continue
>into the next session or are they just cheap dues paying
>for the moment, while getting ready to sellout when the
>rain of if-you-knew-what-we've-been-briefed shit showers
>down next year?








From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 11 18:48:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:48:22 +0800
Subject: Australian sheep [WAS RE: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?]
In-Reply-To: <3f22f0f90f0b1f30a42aa9f7032de557@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102813b08eb3e33298@[207.167.93.63]>




(An interesting essay from an Australian was sent to me via an anonymous
remailer...at least he or she claimed to be Australian. As I can only
respond to him or her via the list, here's my reply.)

At 6:42 PM -0700 11/11/97, Anonymous wrote:
>>>>>> "T" == Tim May <tcmay at got.net>

>  T> As for Australia, your countrymen acted like sheep in giving up
>  T> their guns.  If they try that kind of shit here in this country,
>  T> a *lot* of cops are going to get killed.
>
>  T> (Not necessarily by me, though I'll defend my property and my
>  T> constitutional rights as best I can. But the militia and patriot
>  T> and anti-New World Order movements are preparing for war.)
>
>As an Australian I couldn't agree more with your conclusion Tim.
>Australians showed a shameful and cowardly disregard for individual
>liberty and freedom on the gun issue and a time will come I'm sure
...

And let me assure you that I am not insulting all Australians. I call them
as I see them, whether it's Americans (the most common target of my
analyses), Germans, French, Swedes, etc.
...
>sources. We have in doing this showed just how sheep like we are for
>instead of taking some responsibility for our own future defence needs
>we have placed ourselves at the feet of the USA for our continued
>freedom to pass even more restrictive laws on ourselves. We will all
>rue the day America loses interest in us and no doubt some of our
>ernest friends to our north will at that point suddenly show a very
>great interest in this land. Anyone who seriously believes otherwise

"Pax Americana" is the name for this trend. America sits astride the world,
as the only remaining military superpower, and an economic superpower as
well.

I say this not to be jingoistic, but as an expression of reality. The
former Soviet Union is in disarray, and its submarines and ICBMs are
apparently rusting away and will soon be inoperable. This is, in a sense,
good news. The United States almost bankrupted itself in the 40-year Cold
War. And now, instead of turning swords into plowshares, cutting taxes, and
getting on with life, American sends its aircraft carriers to far-off
places, acts as the world's policeman, draws lines in the sand and dares
Saddam to cross them, threatens trade wars, and browbeats other nations.

(I'd gladly settle for a broken up USA, with five or six economic/political
regions, each too small to run around the world butting into the affairs of
distant nations. The coming chaos may succeed in doing this.)

>is a fool.  Personally I have laid down a weapons cache that would, at
>the hands of our media, make me look like an invading army myself.
>Some of my friends have done likewise. I believe it is my right,
>indeed my duty to provide for my own defence. In doing so I am now run
>the risk of 20 years imprisonment. Of course since I run this risk
>(and self defence is no longer a justification for holding a weapon in
>this country) I have not limited myself to semi-auto weapons as they
>are now as illegal as automatic weapons, grenades, mines etc. In for a
>penny in for a pound.

One of the first things the invading U.S. forces did in Somalia was to
disarm the civilian population. (I am not making this up.) The farmers
protested that they would be left defenseless against the nomadic guerillas
and looters. Ah, but the benevolent U.S. decided, via consultations with
the U.N., that the key to peace lay in disarming those they could disarm.

As the U.S. found, those they were unable to disarm kicked their asses all
around Mogadishu. Dragging a chopper pilot around town was just the most
visible sign.

So the U.S. retreated. Is this portrayed as a defeat? Nope. The warmongers
talk about how America has "bounced back" from its loss in Viet Nam and has
not lost a war since. More reason to invade other nations.

Anyway, disarming the civilians is now U.S. policy. Not too surpising that
Clinton looks with favor on the recent disarmings in the U.K. and Australia
(and with newer restrictions in Canada, too).


>regardless. It is our right and duty, as free men and women to be able
>to defend ourselves and god help anyone who comes to disarm us. The
>ban, if anything has forced true patriots to decide just which side of
>the line they stand on and fostered a more extremist attitude towards
>those who would stand aside while the people are murdered. We realise
>that constitutional protections such as enshrined in your great
>Constitution are won only with blood and not with the talk of the
>corrupt. Some of us are awaiting the coming tide with relish.
>
>Good luck and good hunting,

Amen. And Australia should not be completely surprised if the U.S. offers
to send "peacekeeping troops" to your country to help with the disarmament.

The conspiracy theorists who talk about the New World Order and U.N. "Blue
Helmets" roaming U.S. streets have it only half right: the other side of
the New World Order is having U.S. troops, possibly under U.N. flags
(barf), patrolling conquered, er, liberated territories.

I don't want to see my fellow countrymen die in foreign wars, but it
wouldn't break my heart to see some Aussie sharpshooters taking out foreign
invaders. Should this event happen.

(Many of us are fighting the New World Order, and I don't personally think
there will be Americans sent in large numbers to quell large populations.
America likes picking on countries much smaller than itself.)

Good luck.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From BdavidC at venus.gmds.com  Wed Nov 12 10:51:53 1997
From: BdavidC at venus.gmds.com (BdavidC at venus.gmds.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:51:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 48 MILLION Email Leads $195 + BONUSES
Message-ID: <BdavidC@venus.gmds.com>





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> 
> 
> ________________________________________________
> List Removal instructions. Simply send an email to 
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   If you have sent remove before, Please send again
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   making it harder on those who do not wish to recieve
   commercial Email.
   Thank You
> _________________________________________________




ns
uns-jvm-3524
11-127
c#1





From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 11 19:02:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:24 +0800
Subject: FRB Crypto Systems
Message-ID: <199711120250.DAA02358@basement.replay.com>



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

John Young wrote: 
> Federal Register, November 10, 1997
> Excerpt from a Federal Reserve Bank announcement:
> 
>       ... the Reserve Banks plan to change their policy
> for ownership of the encryption boards used by depository
> institutions with dial and multi-drop connections. These
> encryption boards are currently purchased and owned by the
> depository institutions. With the replacement of the
> encryption boards beginning in the second half of 1998 to
> enhance the security of the Federal Reserve's communications
> network, the Reserve Banks plan to purchase and assume
> ownership of these boards.

  Not that they are preparing to take fascist control of all 
electronic funds in preparation for the coming Financial Holocaust.
  Has anyone that you can't look *anywhere* in the government
regulatory scheme without seeing signs of preparation for 
*seizing* control of information, finances and communications?

  I remember going into a black bar in a very bad neighborhood
in Seattle and being befriended by the nicest black man in the
whole world. After sharing intimate buddy-buddy details of his
life with me he suggested that if I gave him my wallet to hold
then I wouldn't have to worry about some of the "bad" black
people in the establishment robbing me.
  I didn't give him my wallet, but I _did_ vote for him. {;>)

El !Fool






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Nov 11 19:02:50 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:50 +0800
Subject: UN Conference - Limits on Internet speech [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711120300.VAA00603@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

>                U.N. CONFERENCE DEBATES LIMITS ON INTERNET SPEECH
>                                        
>      Internet racism graphic November 11, 1997
>      Web posted at: 9:14 p.m. EST (0214 GMT)
>      
>      GENEVA (AP) -- Concerned at the growing use of the Internet for
>      racist propaganda, international experts are debating how -- and
>      whether -- to combat the spread of computerized hate messages.
>      
>      Binding global controls on the Internet are unlikely, officials said
>      Tuesday, since the technology is changing faster than rules can be
>      made, and because of free speech protection in the United States.
>      
>      The United Nations is sponsoring a week-long meeting of human rights
>      activists, government officials and Internet service providers as
>      part of efforts to ensure compliance with an international treaty
>      banning racial discrimination. It ends Friday with a list of
>      recommendations.
>      
>      "There are 148 countries who have accepted this convention and they
>      are under obligation to enact measures to implement it," said Agha
>      Shahi of Pakistan, a member of the U.N. Committee on the Elimination
>      of Racial Discrimination.
>      
>      "Are we going to say the Internet should be exempt from any kind of
>      compliance with the rules of international behavior?" he asked.
>      
>      It is widely agreed that the Internet offers an open platform for
>      racists and white supremacists, although nothing has proved this
>      leads to a related rise in racist incidents.
>      
>      Much of the problem stems from the United States, where groups such
>      as the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Nations and skinheads base their Web
>      sites.
>      
>      Under the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees free speech, these
>      groups are permitted to post their views on the Internet, which can
>      be accessed by people in other countries.
>      
>      Although European countries like Sweden have moved toward making
>      Internet service providers responsible for the content they supply,
>      such restrictions are unlikely in the United States, and hence,
>      internationally.
>      
>      "In our tradition, it is only through the clash of views in vigorous
>      debate, and not through government censorship, that equality is well
>      served," Philip Reitinger of the U.S. Department of Justice said at
>      the U.N. meeting. "That principle -- one which accords freedom of
>      expression the highest respect -- applies with equal force to the
>      Internet."
>      
>      While the U.S. computer industry is voluntarily working on ways to
>      ensure that computer smut isn't accessible to minors, Eric Lee, of
>      the Internet service provider Commercial Internet eXchange, said it
>      was "not feasible and not desirable" for Internet providers to act
>      as censors.
>      
>      "It's difficult if not impossible to suppress content on the Web
>      because there are so many ways to evade controls," Lee said. "Which
>      does not mean that one should not take steps to limit behavior, but
>      coming up with foolproof controls is virtually impossible."
>      
>      Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
>      material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
>      redistributed.






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Tue Nov 11 19:28:44 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:28:44 +0800
Subject: Y2K: Canada status?
Message-ID: <199711120328.WAA14485@cti06.citenet.net>



Please reply to my personnal address, I am not on CPunks.

Is there anybody who knows about the Y2K situation in Canada?

Should we infer that the situation will be the same here or were any preparation steps 
taken by out govt that will postpone our contry's alledged fall by 2 microseconds (time for 
any major economic catastrophy in the US to reach us here)

Ciao
jfa

       "You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're
       up against -- then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful
       gestures. We're after power and we mean it. Your fellows were pikers,
       but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no
       way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power
       to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals,
       one makes them. Once declares so many things to be a crime that it
       becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a
       nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But
       just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor
       objectively interpreted -- and you create a nation of law-breakers---and
       then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system...that's the game, and
       once you understand it, you'll be easier to deal with."
 
Ayn Rand






From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 11 19:31:49 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:31:49 +0800
Subject: U.N. conference on "hate sites" on the Internet
Message-ID: <v03007808b08ece61be45@[168.161.105.216]>



[I've attached the conference agenda below. --Declan]

*************

Experts tell U.N. conference 'hate' sites on Internet may be here to
stay

Reuters

GENEVA (November 11, 1997 2:47 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -
Internet hate sites, such as one urging "Aryan brothers and sisters
... to combat racially inferior
parasites," are unlikely to be stamped out because this would limit
freedom of speech, experts said Tuesday.

The need to respect free speech, as well as the sheer size of the
task, emerged at a United Nations seminar as the two main obstacles
to eradicating such material.

The issue has become more pressing as the number of online hate sites
soars and racism, neo-Nazism and anti-Semitism, find new niches on
the Internet, speakers at the meeting said.

But there is no easy answer to the question: who decides what is
offensive on the Internet?

"In Europe, it would be racist to say, 'I don't like Arabs.' In the
United States, we can say 'I don't like Arabs, I don't like pink
people.' Under freedom of expression, it's not against the law," said
Debra Guzman, executive director of the U.S.-based Human Rights
Information Network.

"You can't ban this in the United States," she told a news
conference.

One problem is that Internet technology itself cannot distinguish
between the offensive and the non-offensive, said Eric Lee, public
policy director at the U.S. Commercial Internet Exchange.

[...]


*************

     Dear Madam/Sir,

        I have the honour to inform you that within the framework of the
     implementation of the Programme of Action for the Third Decade to
     Combat Racism and Racial Discrimination, in pursuance of General
     Assembly resolution 51/81, the High Commissioner for Human Rights will
     organize a seminar on "The role of Internet with regard to the
     provisions of the International Convention on the Elimination of all
     Forms of  Racial Discrimination".

        The purpose of the Seminar which will take place in Geneva from 10
     to 14 November 1997 and bring together experts on the subject matter,
     representatives of governments, Internet Service Providers, and
     representatives of non-governmental organizations, is to find ways and
     means to ensure a responsible use of the Internet in the light of the
     International Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Racial
     Discrimination.


        The draft agenda of the meeting reads as follows:

                (a)     Racism and Racial Discrimination on Internet

        (b)     Technical Aspects of screening racist propaganda on
     Internet:
                1.      National Measures
                2.      International Measures

        (c)     Prohibition of racist propaganda on the Internet. Juridical
     Aspects:
                1.      National Measures
                2.      International Measures

        (d)     Elements for an eventual Code of Conduct and good practice
     for displaying material on Internet

                (e)     Recommendations.

                                                       /...
     #012#

        I am very pleased, on behalf of the Secretary-General, to invite
     your Organization to send an observer to the seminar. In order that
     the necessary arrangements concerning conference facilities may be
     made in advance,  I would be grateful to receive his or her name by 30
     October 1997 at the latest. Under existing arrangements, your
     Organization would be expected to bear the costs of its
     representative.

                        I am attaching to this letter, for your
     convenience, a briefing note relating to the seminar.

                                   Yours sincerely,







                                        John Pace

                                  Chief
                                Research and Right to
                                          Development Branch








     ______________________________________________________________________

        IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PROGRAMME OF ACTION
        FOR THE THIRD DECADE TO COMBAT RACISM
        AND RACIAL DISCRIMINATION



        SEMINAR ON THE ROLE OF INTERNET WITH REGARD TO THE PROVISIONS
     OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE ELIMINATION
     OF ALL FORMS OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION


        Geneva, Palais des Nations
        10-14 November 1997



        PROVISIONAL AGENDA




     Monday 10 November

     Morning

10:00 - 13:00           Opening of the Seminar

                        -       Welcome address by High Commissioner for
Human
Rights
                        -       Election of the Bureau (Chairperson,
Vice-Chairperson, Rapporteur)
                        -       Adoption of the agenda
                        -       Organisation of work

Afternoon               Working session I

15:00 - 18:00           Item I: Racism and Racial Discrimination on Internet

                         -      Keynote address by Ms. Debra Guzman,
                                Executive Director
                                The Human Rights Information Network
                        -       General discussion
                        -       Conclusion
#012#

Tuesday 11 November

Morning         Working session II.a

10:00 - 13:00           Item II: Technical Aspects of screening racist
propaganda on Internet: National measures

                        -       Keynote address by Mr. Timothy L. Jenkins,
Chairman of Unlimited Visions
                        -       General discussion
                        -       Conclusion

Afternoon               Working session II.b

15:00 - 18:00           Item III: Technical Aspects of screening racist
propaganda on                           Internet: international measures

                                -       Keynote address by Mr. Eric Lee,
                                Commercial Internet Exchange
                        -       General discussion
                        -       Conclusion


Wednesday 12 November

Morning         Working session III.a

10:00 -13:00            Item IV: Prohibition of Racist Propaganda on the
Internet: Juridical Aspects, National Measures

                        -       Keynote address by an expert of the
Department
of Justice, USA
                        -       General discussion
                        -       Conclusion

Afternoon               Working session III.b

15:00 - 18:00           Item V: Prohibition of Racist Propaganda on the
Internet: Juridical Aspects, International Measures

                        -       Keynote address by Mr. Agha Shahi, member
of the
Commitee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination
                        -       General discussion
                        -       Conclusion

#012#
Thursday 13 November

Morning                 Working session IV.a

10:00 - 13:00           Item VI: Elements for an eventual Code of Conduct and
good practice for displaying material on Internet

                        -       Keynotes address by:
                                        Ms. Maya Sooka, Association for
Progressive Communication, Johannesburg
                        -       General Discussion
                        -       Conclusion

Afternoon               Working session IV.b

15:00 - 18:00           Item VI: Elements for an eventual Code of Conduct and
good practice for displaying material on Internet

                        -       Keynotes address by:
                                Mr. Tony Rutkowsky, former senior ITU
executive
                        -       General Discussion
                        -       Conclusion


Friday 14 November

Morning                 Free Time

Afternoon

15:00 - 18:00           Conclusions and Recommendations

                        Closing of the Seminar

                        -       Statement of the Chairperson
                        -       Final statement of the High Commissioner



        ------









From tien at well.com  Tue Nov 11 19:57:51 1997
From: tien at well.com (Lee Tien)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:57:51 +0800
Subject: Matters of Law
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b08e40f2313f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803b08ed102700f@[163.176.132.90]>



At 9:17 AM -0800 11/11/97, Tim May wrote:

>
>I expect the Paladin Press case will go to the Supreme Court now. I hope it
>does, at least. And it'll be interesting to see if the ACLU supports a
>politically incorrect case like this.
>
The 4th Circuit dec'n in Paladin is up on the FindLaw site, though when I
got it this morning parts of it were mixed up -- some footnote material got
into the body of the opinion.


These are among the amici on the appellate brief.  I'd guess they all
weighed in on Paladin's side.  It's a "publisher's rights" case -- not that
tough to pick sides.

AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION FOUNDATION; AMERICAN
CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF THE NATIONAL CAPITOL AREA; AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES
UNION OF COLORADO; ABC, INCORPORATED; AMERICA ONLINE, INCORPORATED;
ASSOCIATION OF AMERICAN PUBLISHERS; THE BALTIMORE SUN COMPANY; E.W. SCRIPPS
COMPANY; FREEDOM TO READ FOUNDATION; MAGAZINE PUBLISHERS OF AMERICA,
INCORPORATED; MCCLATCHY NEWSPAPERS, INCORPORATED; MEDIA GENERAL, INC.; MEDIA
PROFESSIONAL INSURANCE; NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BROADCASTERS; NEWSPAPERS
ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA; THE NEW YORK TIMES; THE REPORTERS COMMITTEE FOR
FREEDOM OF THE PRESS; SOCIETY OF PROFESSIONAL JOURNALISTS; THE WASHINGTON
POST

Lee Tien







From jleonard at divcom.umop-ap.com  Tue Nov 11 20:26:44 1997
From: jleonard at divcom.umop-ap.com (Jon Leonard)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:26:44 +0800
Subject: Secure Hashing for Entropy
In-Reply-To: <199711112344.PAA18932@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <9711120417.AA10746@divcom.umop-ap.com>



Monty Cantsin wrote:
> Often we have a source of entropy whose output we use as the input to
> a secure hash function.
> 
> Does it matter if the hashing function is secure?  I don't think so.
> All that really matters is that the function hashes evenly so that any
> input string is about as likely as any other input string to result in
> a particular hash.  Even if the hash function is weak and collisions
> can be found, if it is even the same level of entropy is still
> available.
> 
> Have I got this right?

In the case where:
1) Your entropy source is as good as you think it is
2) Your opponent knows nothing about the data from your entropy source
and
3) Your entropy mixes the way you expect it to.

this is indeed the case.

If you're not completely sure about the above, using a cryptographic
hash requires your hypothetical opponent to be able to reverse the hash
to exploit what they know, rather than simpler computations.

Since it seems that paranoia pays off in the design of cryptographic
software, I'd recommend always using a strong hash.

Jon Leonard






From wabe at smart.net  Tue Nov 11 20:29:54 1997
From: wabe at smart.net (wabe)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:29:54 +0800
Subject: Hmmm
Message-ID: <01bcef3a$154ada60$547f61ce@dave>



So, just as a question, what COULD the FBI do,
if it saw a real possibility for organized crime
to get out of control if they no longer could do
wiretaps?  I have a friend in berlin who says
the Russian Mob is moving in there.  Scary.

What should the FBI say?  Is there even a 
Constitutional option?
_______________________________________
-wabe






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 11 20:30:45 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:30:45 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03110741b08e51241192@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03110778b08e8b0ead48@[139.167.130.248]>



At 3:36 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Tim May wrote:

> >Remind me not to lock myself up, all alone, with a bunch of live ammo and
> >almost no one to talk to but the internet, in an isolated hilltop
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Ad hominem becomes you, Bob.
>
> A variation of the old "get a life" put down of anyone whose opinions one
> disagrees with.

I call 'em as I see 'em, Tim. Actually, I would probably call what I said
there an "amateur psychological diagnosis". :-). Your mileage may vary.
That's what I get for indulging in the pseudoscience of psychology, I
suppose.

I *do* know what an ad hominem is, however, and you missed on that one. I
should note that there are quite a few in your reply below, if you're
interested in further elucidation of the concept...


Anyway, I was stating, in the quote above, my opinion about the possible
cause of your sense of impending doom, doom which I personally find to be
unfounded generally (see the quote in my .sig, below, for details), except,
of course, in unusual circumstances, which you seem intent on percipitating
upon yourself.

> So we're back to the old "if we won't restrain our opinions, Reno and Freeh
> will have to."

Fair enough. However, in an era of no-cost "technology transfers" of
military training and hardware to your local police, of marines shooting
down shepherds who are in the wrong place at the wrong time and thinking
nothing of it, and of the entrapment and armed seige of people who knock a
few inches off a shotgun, the saying "the squeaky wheel gets greased" is
probably truer now than ever.

Remember my old Neitsche joke about the rabbits demanding their rights and
the lions asking to see their claws? You, Tim, or anyone else we know, even
those with arsenals :-), are but mere ferrets in comparison. In that case,
I'd say it's better to be more clever, and to avoid, than to try to
confront, the lions.

> I say what I think.

And so you do. Lots of people do. In this country, they don't go to jail or
dissapear or get killed for it as easily as they do elsewhere, but you can
bet it happens.

Particularly when they threaten, even in an elliptical fashion, the lives
of people like judges. :-). Mr. Bell seems to be our canonical proof of
that result at the moment, and all he did was threaten the tax man.

Once you have their attention, all it takes is one trumped-up charge and,
with armed resistance to that charge, poof... One more "armed extremist"
goes away, constitution, due process, or no.

> Recently I was using my ComSec 3DES phone to talk privately (with one of
> those rare persons, according to Bob, that I talk to outside of the Net)
> with someone. He sent me later saying, "Nice talking to you this evening
> (afternoon, for you) and nice to be able to speak freely. What used to be
> taken for granted is now a
> luxury. <sigh>"

Glad to know that you can afford the luxury yourself. Buy a few more, and
drive the price down for the rest of us. :-).

Clearly, the nosy nation state has replaced the nosy switchboard operator,
and, yes, the consequences are much more serious, and I think both should
be defeated by technical, and not legal means. I also think that privacy is
more economical than surviellance, especially in finance.

Meanwhile, on a *recorded* prison telephone line, a cocaine kingpin makes
$400million arranging dope deals, in traceable phone calls to *Medellin*,
with complete impunity. All because there's just too much recorded
information to monitor it all, even on only three little prison phone
lines, for Club Fed to process.

And, to make my point again, you can bet that *all* this guy's phone calls
are listened to now, even if he did turn state's evidence when someone,
someone who was not listening to his calls, mind you, snitched on him.

So, remember Mongo, again. *If* you get his attention, he *will* punch your
horse's lights out. And, of course, if you shoot him, you'll make him mad.
It's funny, of course, but Idi Amin was funny, too. The problem is being
able to laugh at these guys from a safe distance, which is hard to do if
they now know who and where you are, and they've decided they don't like
you anymore. Fidel reached out and touched several people in the US in the
late 70's, for instance. One was in DC, right under some apparent federal
surviellance.

> More over the top nonsense from Bob.

Well, over the top, I'll except. It's what I'm good at, after all. :-).
"Nonsense" I would normally except also, but not in this case. Your first
ad hominem, by the way.

> I've done nothing that will "force a
> showdown." Precisely what crimes, Bob, have I committed? Cite a charge.
> Even a single one.

You've just threatened a judge in public, among other things, over the past
24 hours alone, and, even if you haven't done it "technically",
"technically" doesn't count when one of Mongo's bunch decides they have
"probable cause" to bust your door down, shoot their way in, and plant
"evidence" on your body. Or, more probably, like they did with the shepherd
kid in Texas, or Mrs. Weaver in Ruby, or Waco, or the preacher who died in
a no-knock here in Boston, they'll just say "Woops. Our mistake. Sorry.
Never mind."

> >On the other hand, Tim, I suppose, there *is* Bosnia as a prima facie
> >counterexample, and I bet that *that* little fandango probably started with
> >a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself to be these
> >days.
>
> More typical Bob Hettinga insult arguments. You ought to form a club with
> Kent Crispin, Detweiler, and Vulis.

Ah. Now *that* last bit was a genuine ad hominem. Congratulations. (Notice,
class, the direct attack on personal charactistics, without reference to
the merits of the argument at hand... Woops. So sorry. Double score, Tim.
An ad homenim, *with* a red herring thrown in. Score: 2 ad hominems, 1 Red
Herring)


Actually, Tim, I think you *do* fancy yourself a freedom fighter. Certainly
most of us think of you that way, these days. Clearly your comments lately
seem to indicate it. You've made veiled intimations of impending
confrontation for, well, months, now, if not longer. Your attempt to get
arrested when Clinton went to Stanford this fall, something about hoping to
refuse to identify yourself if asked by Secret Service, I think, is a good
example of this. More recently, your thinly disguised threats against
anyone with authority to throw you in jail is the same kind of thing. I
don't think there's any doubt that you're trying very hard, at least in
your conversations on the net, to test that arsenal of yours some evening.

More to the point, I think what I said about Bosnia makes perfect sense,
even if I don't believe it's going to happen. The net result of a
population forceably homogenized for more than 75 years and then armed is
something like Bosnia. In the case of the US, we have a population which
was homogeneous and armed, then gradually disarmed and "diversified" with
various political policies and subsidies. Now, if you rearm those people,
or more precisely, they rearm themselves in attempt to keep themselves from
being disarmed further (your posting yesterday about the gun show was a
case in point), we could get another Bosnia, or Somalia, or whatever.
Clearly it's better to let Americans keep their guns, and stop trying to
"diversify" them.

I mean, Stalin went out and deliberately created these "ethnic" republics
where none existed before, (or where at least the czars had done a
reasonable job of repressing ethnicity for centuries before that) and we
all know what that "diversity" program did to the Soviet Union after
communism, and even to Russia today in places like Chechnaya. Fortunately,
lots of the former Soviet "republics", Kazakhstan, Mongolia (though not
officially a Soviet republic still a vassal state), etc., are pretty
stable. Homogeneous populations, again.

Maybe, at some point, Americans will realize that they're more alike than
they're different -- as anyone who's gone to Europe or Africa will attest
-- this "diversity" stuff will be put aside, and whether they're armed or
not won't really matter. Certainly turn-of-20th-century America was armed
to the teeth, mostly homogeneous, and quite peaceable. The modern Swiss
are, as well.

However, I wonder what modern American "freedom fighters" are going to do
when they have the Talaban-like ability to hold turf at the point of a gun
and try to create the "homogeneity" of their preference, like they did in
Afganistan or Bosnia. May we live in interesting times, indeed.

And, *that's* what I was getting at, with the Bosnia as alternate model,
bit, above. Giving your implicit argument its due, I suppose, even though I
don't think it's going to happen in this country.

I think that communication and computers will eventually create stable, and
probably homogeneous, societies, without the need for nation-states, or
armed political/ethnic enclaves, or whatever. Force, like mass and energy,
will be conserved, but it won't be applied giant industrial glops, like we
do it today. :-).

Now, Tim, is over the top. Whether it's nonsense, of course, I leave for
others to judge.


So, my overall point is, Tim, that you shouldn't try so hard to be a crash
test dummy for the new world order. Throwing rocks at cop cars is great fun
when you're say, 12, but doing it when you're 40 can do bad things to your
permanent physical health in rather short order. Revolution is really a
young man's game. I mean, even the IRA guys want to retire...

Whoops. I used metaphors, with those rocks and crash test dummies. Gotta
watch that, because...

> You want to document a case where I've shoved a Mac-10 up anyone's nose,
> let alone a tree hugger?

The error of my metaphor coupled with your own deliberate literal
interpretation?  I thought so. Red Herring. (Score: 2 ad hominems, 2 red
herrings.) Besides, I sincerely doubt that you even *have* something as
cheezy as a Mac-10. :-).

> Or is talking now the same as shoving a gun in someone's nose? (You'd be
> surprised how many liberals think this is so, even some judges who just
> ruled against Evil Assault Literature.)

Ah. Now you understand the metaphor. I feel better now.

No, Tim, I think that liberals *will* see it as free speech. They just will
decide that some speech, to paraphrase Orwell, should be freer than other
speech. I think that the guys with guns that they hire to enforce their
pseudoscientific views of the world will just shoot you for pissing them,
maybe even their bosses, off.

That would be a drag. Heck, they probably won't be atavistic enough to call
it "treason", or something.

> Bob, get back on your medications.

Another ad hominem. (Score: 3 ad hominems, 2 red herrings)

> >Frankly, I liked Lazarus Long, or even old Farnham himself, a lot better.
> >Hell, even a better, more libertarian (Nazi uniforms? Sheesh^2...), remake
> >of "Starship Troopers" would be preferrable to the scipt you've written
> >yourself.
>
> I don't form or express my opinions to have you like me more than these
> fiction characters you're obsessed with.

Of course you don't.

However, it doesn't keep me from having opinions of my own about you,
either. :-). Or other folks having opinions about you. Including people who
agree with you, except when you insist on standing up to have your head
chopped off for lack of something better to do.

Most of us have seen that movie, and we don't like the ending.


> Get a life, Bob.

(Score: 4 ad hominems, 2 red herrings)

Wait... Is there an *echo* in here?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 11 20:36:10 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:36:10 +0800
Subject: Y2K: Canada status?
Message-ID: <199711120419.FAA11926@basement.replay.com>



Jean-Francois Avon wrote: 
> Please reply to my personnal address, I am not on CPunks.
> 
> Is there anybody who knows about the Y2K situation in Canada?
> 
> Should we infer that the situation will be the same here or were any preparation steps
> taken by out govt that will postpone our contry's alledged fall by 2 microseconds (time for
> any major economic catastrophy in the US to reach us here)

Canadians have the additional problem of having a lot of software which
is customized to convert differing MM/DD/YY formats back and forth. More
so than many other countries, because of the close working relationship
of many small to medium companies with American customers and vendors.

Many Canadian companies do not seem to realize that their software 
works with their 'Joe America' software package only because the guy 
who left the company six years ago did some obscure customization. 
I have seen problems that appeared only when Canadian companies 
updated their 'Joe America' software, and that was _without_ date-code 
changes.
Many companies that run Canadian versions of software are also unaware
of the customizations made to it by vendors in order to 'make' it
work with US versions as it was advertised to do out of the box.

As well, even Canadian companies who are ready and willing to tackle
the Y2K problem are sometimes unable to do so until those who their
software needs to interact with do so. It is sometimes very difficult
for them to fix the 'Canadian' parts of the code without adjusting
the 'American' parts of the code, with no assurance that once their
American counterparts do their changes, all of their work/money goes
out the window.

During the decimal/metric changeover in Canada, I had more than one
car which required me to have tools for 'both' systems, to do even
the smallest of mechanical tasks on it.

Now might be a great time to invest in companies who resisted the
move to computerization, and who still have bookeepers and the
like on staff.

CanuckMonger






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Tue Nov 11 20:37:00 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:37:00 +0800
Subject: FRB Crypto Systems
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971112020047.00a4d1e0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971112052349.24855C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:
[On hardware crypto used in banking].

> Are these systems related to Kawika Daguio's comments on
> PCCIP forwarded by Declan yesterday? Anyone have more
> detailed info on the boards and link encryptors?

The hardware crypto used by banking networks is universally
underperforming and overpriced. As the leading vendor is losing market
share due to the fact that customers are starting to wonder why they are
paying $5-10k for a device that is outperformed by a Pentium 90, some
enterprising vendor of such devices has aparently convinced the Fed to
help him elimiate  competition by means of regulations. Your basic
government contract con job.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Nov 11 20:51:00 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:51:00 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711120444.WAA02100@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:18:49 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
> Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole

> Remember my old Neitsche joke about the rabbits demanding their rights and
> the lions asking to see their claws? You, Tim, or anyone else we know, even
> those with arsenals :-), are but mere ferrets in comparison.

'mere ferrets'? You obviously don't know much about the predatory nature of
the mustella clan (ferrets, weasels, badgers, etc.). From a predator
stand-point they are excellent hunters, routinely killing prey *three* times
their body weight by themselves. By no means is that routine of predators of
any ilk other than felines (statisticaly hitting 70% kill rates on average,
dogs do good if they hit 40% in packs). You should do a little research into
mustella negripe, the American Black-footed Ferret (distantly related to the
European Ferret at best).

No, being a ferret is *not* an insult but rather a compliment. Pound for
pound if you got to pick a fight don't pick one with felines or mustellids
they *will* kick your weasy little butt.

And yes, I am a cat & ferret lover.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 11 20:58:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:58:28 +0800
Subject: Communications
Message-ID: <199711120446.FAA14275@basement.replay.com>




Chaff

Import receive smuggle hide conceal compartments ship train truck vans illegal gang

weapons autos munitions ammunition explosives nitro c4 plastic powder casings bullets

rifles ammo sawed off pistols shipment cargo docks stash cache Bosnia France Libya

Africa Mexico Sud Amercia chopper plane night fight low runway drop pickup wait cover

kill execute hit target plan arrangement cash payoff $100,000 taxes evade $1,000,000

Switzerland Zurich offshore bank account numbered feds atf batf dea escape hidden

internet international gmt london interpol gs-9 brits sas terror government fuel oil

diesel fertilizer racing mix formula files secrets encrypt pgp intercept caution

fbi president plane movement ss mafia kennedy criminal shoot hackers militia

extremists fight constitution big brother congress freedom jefferson original

cia dia military joint chiefs council united nations new world order one russia

socialists communists crack cocaine

Copyright 1997 Noise Inc.

Distribute by law.        






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 11 21:20:44 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:20:44 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <199711120506.GAA16422@basement.replay.com>



>If the judge is overturning aquittals, then we have problems. And I would
>suggest we lock and load if the judge had done that and thrown her in prison.
>As it is, I only suggest that everyone lock and load because they threw her
>in jail before she was convicted. She hadn't yet had her trial, so she
>shouldn't have been in jail, period.

She was under indictment for murder, no? I don't know how Massachusetts
handles murder suspects before trial, but in many states those accused of
capital crimes don't get the benefit of bail. (Ditto for those who are
flight risks, etc.) Of course, prosecutors perforn their own dog-and-pony
show in front of the judge/magistrate, claiming that the accused is not
only guilty of everything one could imagine, but also a smarmy type who
would double-park during rush hour and probably has connections to the
Illuminati, neo-Nazi hate groups, and the O.T.O.

The logical extreme of what you propose is that, for a serial murderer, jail
would just be a rest stop between killings. "He was caught in Idaho and
indicted for murder, but they released him on bail. So he went over to
Montana and killed someone there, but they had to release him, too."
Surely there must be some reasonable middle ground.







From make at money.net  Wed Nov 12 13:36:43 1997
From: make at money.net (make at money.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:36:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: An open invitation! *!
Message-ID: <09d785449190cb7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>


X-Info:Filtered Via The Remove List At http://www.antispam.org
X-Info:Sent Using A Free Copy Of The Zenith Bulk Emailer



                                            
 INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE...

- For easy reading, please maximize this window -



NOTE... *** For those of you that don't have access to a server that allows you to bulk e-mail, I can give you a special gift. I know a url where you can get several different FREE software packages which will extract e-mail addresses from the internet and create mailing lists for you!  I also have a list of FREE e-mail servers that allow you to send bulk mail!  All you have to do to get them is to include a note asking me for "THE FREE E-MAIL SERVERS" and BE SURE TO ENCLOSE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER FOR REPORT # 1 ***



I won't use up bandwidth with useless comments about this program, or testimonials from people you have never heard about before. We all know that multi-level-marketing is the wave of the future and that it is very easy to make a large amount of money in a very short time. I know, this is my second time using this program and I made well over $50,000 on my last attempt. 

Unfortunately, most people look at this type of program and toss it out, a very big mistake because they are also tossing out a chance to gain financial independance! 

This program contains all of the components necessary to make it a legal, multi-level-marketing program, a tangible product, a service, and a guarantee, so don't let someone fool you into thinking it's illegal, it's not!

Plain and simple english... This Program Works!  All it takes is a little of your time, a VERY small investment, and the will to succeed! Using the internet and e-mail, this program WILL make you a lot of money, and you can run through it again and again! 

*** For those of you that don't have access to a server that allows you to bulk e-mail, I can give you a special gift. I know a url where you can get FREE software which will extract e-mail addresses from the internet and create mailing lists for you!  I also have a list of FREE e-mail servers that allow you to send bulk mail!  All you have to do to get them is to include a note asking me for "THE FREE E-MAIL SERVERS" and BE SURE TO ENCLOSE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER FOR REPORT # 1 ***



INCOME POTENTIAL

This plan works on a Four-level or Tier MLM Program plan.  This example that follows is
quite conservative;  however, you need to be aware that the numbers will change
(probably upward) depending on the distribution amounts, the response rate of return, and
the failure factor.  The only numbers which are imperative for you to remember, and be
able to match or exceed, are the number of orders received at Levels 1 and 2 (15 orders
and 105, respectively).  You must receive at least 15 orders for Report # 1, and 105
orders for Report # 2 for MATHEMATICALLY GUARANTEED SUCCESS.

Here is a VERY CONSERVATIVE  example of how this works.  First, you and those
following will each distribute 5,000 MLM Invitations to Participate in the program (what
you are now reading).  Second, the response rate of orders (future participants) is usually
.003 (three in a thousand).  Third, of those who respond with an order, $10, and the
willingness to enter this program, 50% will for whatever reason not redistribute it.  This is
call the failure factor.  The real number for these failures is closer to 30%, but remember
you are being presented  a very conservative example.

So, you decide to give the program a TRY and enter at Level One and redistribute 5,000
new invitations which, at the return rate of .003 will provide you with 15 orders within 10
days to 2 weeks from future participants at $10 each, totaling $150 (instant return on your
investment).  Remember, we assumed 50% of the 15 new participants will fail to
redistribute, so only 7 will send out the next 5,000 invitations (35,000 total).

At Level Two, out of these 35,000 you should receive 105 (three in a thousand) orders
within an additional 2-4 weeks at $10 totaling $1,050, and 52 new participants (half of the
105) will each send out the next 5,000 invitations for a new total of 260,000 prospects. 
>From these you will receive 780 orders at Level Three, increasing your income by $7,800. 
Then 390 (half of the 780) people will each distribute another 5,000 proposals, which will
total 1,950,000 potential participants as you reach Level Four.  With the .003 response
rate there will be 5,850 new orders equaling $58,500 !  The total for all levels is $67,500. 
Not a bad return for sending out only 5,000 e-mail invitations.

INVESTMENT

The investment necessary to enter this program is $40 for the purchase of all 4 reports. 
This is a fixed cost of purchasing the four individual reports from preexisting Program
Members at $10 each.  Beyond this, the costs are variable depending on how you choose
to redistribute the Program and the cost of reproducing the reports.  Most certainly the
order response from Level One will cover all costs even for the very aggressive
participants.  This is a very nominal investment for such a wonderful return.  

All those people you know who brag about all their investments, their portfolios, etc.,
would just die if they knew what you now know - that you can turn $40 into $67,500 or
more in the NEXT FEW MONTHS!

LEGALITY

After careful study and legal consultations, there are 2 important points you should now
and follow which keep this program perfectly legal and in compliance with US Postal and
Lottery Laws.  First, a product is being ordered by you and sold by the receiver of your
order.  Second, you need to request that your name be placed on the mailing list from
whom you order so a service is also being performed.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 of
the US Postal and Lottery Laws specifically states " A product or service must be
exchanged for money received."

Also remember when you receive your orders you MUST fill them promptly, preferably
the same day, with the Report being sold to comply with the law, and also to aid the new
participants in future order procurement not just for themselves but also for you.

GUARANTEE FOR SUCCESS

The check points which GUARANTEE your SUCCESS and the optimal financial return
for all participant members are simply these:

	1.  You must receive at least 15 orders for Report # 1
	2.  You must receive at least 105 orders for Report #2

This is easy, but it's an absolute must !!!   No matter how many program invitations you
chose to redistribute, if you don't receive the necessary 15 or more orders for Report # 1,
keep sending more invitations until you receive the necessary 15 orders.  The more you
get, the more money you will make.  This also applies for the 105 orders for Report # 2.

Once you have received the necessary 105 or more orders for Report # 2, simply sit back,
take a deep breath and relax because you are going to receive orders in excess of $67,500. 
This is a MATHEMATICALLY PROVEN  guarantee.  Of those who have participated in
this program and reached the above minimum orders, all have reached or exceeded their
goal.  Just imagine what would happen if there was no failure factor, or if it were just
lower than the calculated 50% !

The question is, do you really want to have $67,500 in your bank in the next few months? 
I am sure you do, so are you willing to give the program a TRY?  You will never know if
it works if you don't TRY.......

Remember, if you want your ship to come in, you have to launch it first.  The hardest part
of this program is deciding to do it.  Once you have taken that step then you need to
decide how to get the 5,000 or more names with whom you want to share this program. 
There are many companies that will provide mailing lists with e-mail addresses.  You have
gotten lots of advertisements over e-mail offering bulk mail services....NOW MAKE
THEM WORK FOR YOU !!

***  WHAT TO DO  ***

"OK, I am of THREE IN A THOUSAND - I've decided this venture is worth $40.00. 
What do I do now?

STEP # 1  -  Purchase each of the four Reports by NAME and NUMBER, and request to
be put on the mailing list (both street and e-mail addresses and important) to each seller. 
Do this by ordering one of the four Reports from each of the four names listed here after. 
For each Report send $10 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
(Business size #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.

It is essential that you specify each Report ordered by name and number for each person
to insure that you will receive all four Reports properly.  You will need all 4 Reports
because you will be REPRODUCING AND RESELLING them.  Do not alter the names
or the sequence of the name list in any way other than by what the instructions say.  It is
important for you to receive same day service on your orders, and you must also must also
provide it to others when you receive orders.

STEP # 2  -  Put your name on the list prior to your distribution of the Program
Invitations.  In doing so it is imperative for everyone's success in this Program that you
follow these instructions exactly.  First, delete the person's name from Report # 4 position
as they will be on their way to the bank.  Second, move the name in the Report # 3
position into the open # 4 position.  Third, move the name from Report # 2 spot into the #
3 position.

Fourth, move the name from the Report # 1 position to the # 2 place.  Finally, place your
name and address into the Report # 1 position.  When doing this, make certain to type the
names and addresses accurately, and to not mix up the order of the names with each
Report other than as how you have just been instructed.





REPORT AND NAME LIST

REPORT # 1 - "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
Order from:  Rick Kowalski  617 Gateway Road, WPG., MB., Canada, R2K-2X8

REPORT # 2 - "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
Order from:  Sarah Glade 168 Harbison Ave. West, Winnipeg MB, Canada, R2L-0A4

REPORT # 3 - "INCREASING THE ODDS WITH MAILING LISTS"
Order from:   Department 2, LBK Marketing & Graphics, PO Box 351509, Jacksonville,
FL 32235-1509


REPORT # 4 - "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
Order from :  USI, 3400-L MacArthur Blvd., Santa Ana, CA  92704

REMEMBER!  Order each report by name and number, and to include with the $10 cash
a self-addressed, stamped envelope.

DISTRIBUTION

Having made the changes in the name list, save the new Program as a text file, using
"Notepad" in Windows in its own directory to be used with whatever mass mail program
you like.  Report # 3 will give you some of the best methods for distributing this Program. 
Be creative!  Who knows what your personal twist will produce!

FULFILLMENT

It is essential that the Reports you reproduce look like the originals - not copies of copies
of copies.  The more professional you keep your business the more so will those behind
you.  Always provide same day service.  It's sound business and the sooner your buyers
get started, the sooner you start counting your money.

IN A NUTSHELL

1.  Name your new MLM Company.  You can use you own name if you desire.

2.  Get a Post Office box if you can, as it is a preferred way of doing MLM.

3.  Edit the names on the Program.  Remember, your name goes into the Report # 1
     position.  The others move down one position with the fourth name being deleted.

4.  Copy and save this program as it has become yours to reproduce for distribution via
     any and all methods you choose.  Make certain it remains neat and legible.

5.  Decide on the number of Programs you intend to distribute.  The more invitations you
     send out, and the quicker you get them into the hands of other interested people, the
     more money you will make.

6.  Decide on your methods of distribution and obtain as many e-mail addresses as
     possible to send to until you receive the information regarding mailing list companies
     in Report # 3.

7.  Distribute the Program Invitations, and get ready to fill your orders.

8.  Reproduce or copy each of the four Reports so you are ready to send them out as soon
     as you receive your orders.  Remember, when you do, to keep them looking like
     originals and to always provide same day service.

9.  Follow the program instructions exactly, but be as creative and aggressive as you can.


THANK YOU for taking the time to read this.  Now print it out, RE-READ IT and
envision that new car, that vacation, that new house, or that quality education for your
kids!

Is it too good to be true?  No, but it is too good to let slip through your fingers.  Are you
one of THREE IN A THOUSAND?  Are you going to prove to yourself whether or not
you can make alot of money in a short period of time by working smart?  Are you willing
to TRY?  

It is your decision.  GOOD LUCK !

*** Important Message - Sent Using The Zenith Bulk Emailer ***
*** For Your FREE Copy Of This Program - http://209.27.224.16 ***







From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 11 22:00:34 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:00:34 +0800
Subject: Here Come De' UN Train... / Re: UN Conference - Limits on Internet speech [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711120300.VAA00603@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34694472.7C8F@dev.null>



Jim Choate wrote:
> >                U.N. CONFERENCE DEBATES LIMITS ON INTERNET SPEECH
> >
> >      GENEVA (AP) -- Concerned at the growing use of the Internet for
> >      racist propaganda, international experts are debating how -- and
> >      whether -- to combat the spread of computerized hate messages.
...
> >      "Are we going to say the Internet should be exempt from any kind of
> >      compliance with the rules of international behavior?" he asked.

  Any guesses as to how many microseconds it is going to take the
fascist
censors in the US to start waving the United Nations flag when they
realize the advantage of having the World Press join them in castigating
'bad' Americans for their 'bad' behavior?
  We may have to ban freedom of speech (for starters), but "If it saves
the life of just one goat-herder's child in Lower Slobovia..."

  Does everyone remember voluntary-mandatory "Drive 55?"
  "You don't _have_ to make it a law in your state, but then you won't
get back the extra money we take from your state's citizens in order to
to hold it hostage for their state's 'bad behavior.'"
  Anyone ever have the paymaster tell them that an extra 10% of their
paycheck was being held, but you could have it if you kissed his ass?
I bet if you think long enough, you can come up with a parallel (and
*real*) example in your life.
  These same workplace and government squeezes will apply equally to
the burdgeoning global marketplace/economy.

  (Once Canada rules WebWorld, I expect everyone to be in compliance
   with my rule of International behavior which requires everyone
   to wear parkas during 'our' winter.)

> >      It is widely agreed that the Internet offers an open platform for
> >      racists and white supremacists, although nothing has proved this
> >      leads to a related rise in racist incidents.

  Where's the broad who found the dirty picture/brain damage study for
us?
Dime to a dollar, she's enroute to the UN building, even as we type.

> >      Under the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees free speech, these
> >      groups are permitted to post their views on the Internet, which can
> >      be accessed by people in other countries.

  I just finished raising/razing this issue in another post (perhaps
under
one of my devilishly clever 'other brother, Anonymous' personas) only to
find that I have, once again, been outflanked by an attack from the real
world, where what I am using my psychic powers to predict is already
taking place.
  An earlier post by Tim eloquently stated what most of us probably
already know, but were hoping no one would mention, so that we could
pretend that it's all going to be OK, as long as daddy tucks us in
and leaves the nightlite on...the ever-nefarious 'they' are dumping
it faster than we can shovel it.
  (And if we shovel faster, they will raise our taxes, so that they
   can buy more dump trucks, and we can buy fewer shovels.)

PLATITUDE ALERT!!! 
"Just when I started winning the rat race, they brought in faster rats."

  Sorry, but there is just so much happening, on so many fronts, that
brain lock is setting in and I will soon be reduced to responding to
important issues only with a blank stare and bad cliches.
<no wisecracks, please>

  I agree with Tim (whether he said yet it, or not) that the 'feared'
is quickly becoming the 'undeniable.' The speed and volume of the 
'openly blatant' lies and increasingly recognizable 'hidden agendas'
is reaching a point where I am tempted to show my Crayola Conspiracy
Charts (TM) to the normal folks down at the bar and see if they
finally start nodding their heads, instead of laughing riotously.
  It's damn near like a good horror movie, where the nice people are
all still laughing and drinking champagne, but the darkly disturbing
cello sounds in the background are being emmitted with increasing
frequency, like the growing birth pains of the bewildered lady
who is about to give birth to the CypherPunk From Hell.
  ("We plan to name the baby Dimitri, if it's a boy, and Kent, if 
    it's a girl. <sorry--couldn't resist>)

> >      Although European countries like Sweden have moved toward making
> >      Internet service providers responsible for the content they supply,
> >      such restrictions are unlikely in the United States, and hence,
> >      internationally.

  Ever hear of Trade Wars? What if your business counts on your email
being received promptly businesses in Sweden, where the government,
or their own ISP, is threatening to do source blocking unless your
employee takes down his 'Swedish Jokes' web site?
  I lived in a Ukranian town where everyone told Polish jokes. I moved
to a Polish town and the same jokes were Ukrainian jokes. Nobody shot
one another over it, and anyone offended would likely get an apology.
  Now, it may well be that I or you could be imprisoned for telling
what now probably qualifies as 'hate speech' in Canada, Land of the
Strong and the Free (but not free to tell 'racist' jokes...or own
a handgun...or...ad infinitum).
  I used to tell a joke about the Ukrainian renting an outhouse for
$300/month, and getting a good deal, because he could rent the
'basement' out to a Swede for $150. Now, even though I have some
Swedish blood coursing through my veins, I would still be a 
criminal for posting it on my web site.

  I can envision finding myself in the same position as Arlo Guthrie
in Alice's Restaurant, telling my fellow inmates, murderers, rapists,
and armed robbers, every one, that I'm doing time for the literary
equivalent of littering. 
  "Yeah man, I'm doing a deuce for Swedish jokes."

  Fucking hilarious, ain't I? Almost as funny as the woman in Tucson
who owned an everyday photography/art store, and got busted and had 
her business shut down and searched because she had a cute picture of
her naked baby boy playing with a rubber chicken.
  I have no doubt that there are equally scary real-life examples of
the same thing in regard to Canada's hate laws. Maybe even a Swedish
joke bust or two.

  Perhaps I am ranting but, to tell the truth, I find the 'little'
examples of daily fascist censorship/insanity every bit as scary as
the big, important things discussed on the list, such as the UN
moves toward putting an end to behavior that is 'bad' according to
International standards. Maybe even _more_ scary, because the examples
of Bob, who lives down the road, and Alice, who works as a cypherpunks
theories model for C2Net, bring the New World Order a step closer to
home when we hear their doors being kicked in.
  We are like the chickens in the henhouse, who have learned to live
with the occassional midnight raid by the fox who has, thus far,
never ventured to our end of the roost. However, things have gotten
to the point where there are more foxes and fewer chickens, and
many of us have begun nervously counting the number of chickens
left between us and the foxes. (Not that we wish them any harm...)
  Maybe, if we remain quiet and still, not making any aggressive
moves, the foxes won't...
  Right!

> >      "It's difficult if not impossible to suppress content on the Web
> >      because there are so many ways to evade controls," Lee said. "Which
> >      does not mean that one should not take steps to limit behavior, but
> >      coming up with foolproof controls is virtually impossible."

  Yes, and that is why 'stiffer penalties' will be required in order
to enforce the rules against 'bad' behavior.
  Everyone who thinks that the Fascists will surrender because it is
just too damn much work to oppress the Free without the proper tools,
Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect Your Daily Government Ration of Rice.

  Show me the legislation proposing to require parents to accept
responsibility for purchasing available software to protect their
children, or give up the right to whine and bitch about what their
children choose to access on the WWW.
  Show me the government funds being diverted from weapons programs
to encourage the development of software which will allow blocking
by choice, without infringing on the right of others to enjoy their
choice of visiting the sites others block.

  In every imaginable corner of government and society, the battle
cry of the Fascist Censors has been, "More laws...stiffer penalties
...more prisons."
  Now the Foxes are making loud proclaimations about how they have
no intention of eating the free-range InterNet Chickens. As a matter
of fact, they have every aim of helping us to build henhouses, for
our own protection...

  Excuse me, but I have to go buy a varmint gun...

TruthMonger






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Nov 11 22:03:35 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:03:35 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03110778b08e8b0ead48@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <ekJ2Fe10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com> writes:
> I mean, Stalin went out and deliberately created these "ethnic" republics
> where none existed before, (or where at least the czars had done a
> reasonable job of repressing ethnicity for centuries before that) and we

Bzzt!  Armenians killed 2 million Moslems under the tzars.

In 1918, the borders of the newly independent state of the Ukraine were defined
by the occupying Germans as "the farthest the German army reached East", which
is how borders were often defined historically, but then Stalin pretended that
it had something to do with an "ethnic" Uke republic.

> all know what that "diversity" program did to the Soviet Union after
> communism, and even to Russia today in places like Chechnaya. Fortunately,
> lots of the former Soviet "republics", Kazakhstan, Mongolia (though not
> officially a Soviet republic still a vassal state), etc., are pretty
> stable. Homogeneous populations, again.

I suggest you look up a standard reference, like the CIA world book, before
trying to show off your phoney expertise and looking like an ignorant fool.
Almost half of Kazakhstan's population are Russians and Ukrainians (many
of them moved there after Kazakhstan's borders were drawn). They're not
shooting right now, although there has been occasional interethnic violence
already (aimed not at Russians, but at some of the ethnic minorities that
Stalin forcibly exciled to Kazakhstan after WWI). "Homogeneous" my ass.
They're certain to have either a civil war (if the Slavs want to rejoin
Russia and the Moslems want an Islamic state) or have a real shooting war
with one or more neighbors over the Caspian oil within 30 years.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From blancw at cnw.com  Tue Nov 11 22:58:14 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:58:14 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971111225642.006a8a68@cnw.com>



Robert Hettinga wrote:

>So, my overall point is, Tim, that you shouldn't try so hard to be a crash
>test dummy for the new world order. Throwing rocks at cop cars is great fun
>when you're say, 12, but doing it when you're 40 can do bad things to your
>permanent physical health in rather short order. Revolution is really a
>young man's game. I mean, even the IRA guys want to retire...
.....................................................


Not to cut into Tim's War here, but Bob -  

The Truth is everybody's "game".  If a person is content with a lot of
nonsenical static on their connection to Reality, it's their decision if
they wish to tolerate it - and it's true they could leave it to someone
else (younger? wiser? more courageous? better equipped?) to take up the
cause of cleaning it up. 

It is also true that one can create around oneself a Reality full of
monsters and tigers and bears (oh, my!), totally leaving out the rest of
the functioning elements in the actual context of the given circumstance.
A person could focus so exclusively on the evil which permeates the social
atmosphere, that they miss out on the opportunities available for achieving
improvements by normal, rational, peaceful means.  

(I read once that Steve Jobs, during his Eastern Mystic Religion phase and
his trips to India and such, realized that the introduction of and
advancement in certain innovative, industrial tools had done more for the
cause of civilization than any other efforts - political, religious, or
otherwise - to improve it.  When he went home he kept this in his
philosophical file as he went forth with his ideas on a computer which
would "change the world".  And he did have some very positive,
revolutionary effects on artists everywhere. :>) )  

Perhaps you mean that *violent* revolution is best left for the young.
But you must acknowledge that the situation *could* get really bad, as bad
as he imagines.   It may not be wise to threaten the mad dogs into
aggression, but there is value in publically identifying the fundamental
poisoning of the intellectual air we are breathing; there is no reason to
forfeit ground for the sake of the delicate sensibilities of predators in
sheep's clothing.  

Tim being so fortified with guns & ammo, he may feel more free than anyone
to speak fearlessly (carelessly?).   Of course, it's easier to display
courage when your defenses are established & strong (and he does sound like
a hammer looking for a nail).   

    ..
Blanc






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Nov 11 23:24:14 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:24:14 +0800
Subject: Here Come De' UN Train... / Re: UN Conference - Limits on Interne
In-Reply-To: <34694472.7C8F@dev.null>
Message-ID: <sqN2Fe13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



TruthMonger <tm at dev.null> writes:
>   ("We plan to name the baby Dimitri, if it's a boy, and Kent, if
>     it's a girl. <sorry--couldn't resist>)

Congratulations.  Here's a virtual cigar.

>   Perhaps I am ranting but, to tell the truth, I find the 'little'
> examples of daily fascist censorship/insanity every bit as scary as
> the big, important things discussed on the list, such as the UN
> moves toward putting an end to behavior that is 'bad' according to
> International standards. Maybe even _more_ scary, because the examples
> of Bob, who lives down the road, and Alice, who works as a cypherpunks
> theories model for C2Net, bring the New World Order a step closer to
> home when we hear their doors being kicked in.

C2Net are the bad guys.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 11 23:24:59 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:24:59 +0800
Subject: PGP's SMTP enforcer and ISPs
In-Reply-To: <346647dc.118322082@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971111103811.006f0290@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 04:47 AM 11/06/1997 GMT, phelix at vallnet.com wrote:
>Now that PGP has an SMTP enforcers, and that others will eventually follow
>with a S/MIME equivalent, we are literally an executive order away from an
>effective (if not 100% complete) ban on "inappropriate" encryption on email
>communications.

Nah - private speech isn't something the President has authority over.
(I'm assuming you mean that kind of executive order, as opposed to
"the folks who run my ISP cut off port 25 by fiat and can cut off crypto
too".)
Besides, about all the PGP SMTP enforcer does is look for
	-----BEGIN PGP ENCRYPTED STUFF-----
or the equivalent binary formats, which is easy for anybody to write a
filter for,
but very tough to scale the average sendmail daemon to look for,
and it's easy enough to steganize your way around (Jon Callas recommends 
using -----BEGIN ZZZ ENCRYPTED STUFF----- to avoid the PGP SMTP filters :-)




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Tue Nov 11 23:29:16 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:29:16 +0800
Subject: Y2K: Canada status?
In-Reply-To: <199711120419.FAA11926@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971112164903.211A-100000@shirley>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

[...]

> Now might be a great time to invest in companies who resisted the
> move to computerization, and who still have bookeepers and the
> like on staff.

I think it is more the time to invest in companies who still have
bookmakers and the like on staff.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
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OzLfCeHVc7I=
=2zSq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From kent at songbird.com  Tue Nov 11 23:47:27 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Krispin)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:47:27 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03110741b08e51241192@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <19971111234121.21455@songbird.com>



On Tue, Nov 11, 1997 at 11:18:49PM -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 3:36 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > >Remind me not to lock myself up, all alone, with a bunch of live ammo and
> > >almost no one to talk to but the internet, in an isolated hilltop
> >    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Ad hominem becomes you, Bob.
> >
> > A variation of the old "get a life" put down of anyone whose opinions one
> > disagrees with.
> 
> I call 'em as I see 'em, Tim. Actually, I would probably call what I said
> there an "amateur psychological diagnosis". :-). Your mileage may vary.
> That's what I get for indulging in the pseudoscience of psychology, I
> suppose.

Speaking of which...

I found it quite interesting to note Tim's reaction when Igor poked
fun of him.  You may recall that Igor baited the trap by innocently
asking about the "technical" nature of Tim's "defense system", then
gently drawing it a little tighter with some droll comments about 
fighting off the assault forces when you were sleeping in the nude.  
By the time Tim realized he had been suckered a rollicking funny 
thread developed, and at least some of the humor was clearly at Tim's 
expense. 

Shortly thereafter Tim started laying down heavy angry shit -- recall
the post about the bleached bones of the demonstrators being left to
starve, handcuffed to the LLNL fences?...and the angry character of his
posts has continued to the present.

This is part of Tim's personal appeal, I guess -- it's obvious that
beneath all the bluster is a very fragile ego that is easily wounded.  
There are other signs, as well -- you mention them:  the dark 
hints about great and fearsome things to come, the recurring oblique 
comparisons between himself and the "founding fathers", the "I dare 
you" runs against the limits of legal safety.

Tim, like many, rationalizes his simmering anger by blaming it all on
the "bastids in the gubmit".  But it doesn't take much insight to see 
that there is something a little deeper going on, something a little 
sad. 
[...]

> > More typical Bob Hettinga insult arguments. You ought to form a club with
> > Kent Crispin, Detweiler, and Vulis.
> 
> Ah. Now *that* last bit was a genuine ad hominem. 

Sure was!

[....]

> > Get a life, Bob.
> 
> (Score: 4 ad hominems, 2 red herrings)
> 
> Wait... Is there an *echo* in here?


Kent "The Toto Mongrel Made Me Do It" Krispin






From jmr at shopmiami.com  Wed Nov 12 00:14:32 1997
From: jmr at shopmiami.com (Jim Ray)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:14:32 +0800
Subject: 1st Amendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971112015251.577fd49c@pop.gate.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is very worrisome to me. Miami author Paul Levine wrote a novel
a while back about using a naturally-occurring chemical available to
the medical profession called succhylcholine (sp?) to commit murder
almost untraceably.

He was inspired by someone trying it, and I think people have tried
it since, and the novel could be said to be a how-to, but nobody has
tried to stop him from making money on the book. This case, by looking
to the content of the how-to, promises to turn poorly-written how-to
books into poorly-written novels, I guess. (Levine's book is well-
written and a fun read, but not every author is Paul Levine.)
JMR
[If cypherpunks, please cc me on replies. I'm on a filtered version.]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From p.feldman at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 00:33:40 1997
From: p.feldman at mailexcite.com (Paul Feldman)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:33:40 +0800
Subject: Search engine supporting SSL
Message-ID: <IABHGFAAPJODDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Hi all,
is there a search engine around supporting SSL ? this will let one hide it's requests
to search engines from malicious eyes :)
-- Paul






Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From p.feldman at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 00:48:57 1997
From: p.feldman at mailexcite.com (Paul Feldman)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:48:57 +0800
Subject: Secure HTTP proxying
Message-ID: <NEEECPNEGFPDDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Hi,
do someone knows if there is any browser which uses SSL to contact a HTTP proxy ?

in the standard schema, we want to contact a secure server through a proxy, so the
browser sends the CONNECT  method to the proxy to contact the remote (secure) site.

in the schema of my interest, the browser wants to contact a remote secure or insecure
site with "hiding" of the communication from some intermediate sniffers, it does
so by using a http proxy in SSL mode and then contacting the site of his choice.

This is very important for permitting web navigation in insecure environnements if
the malicious eyes dont have access to the proxy's network.
talking about HTTP proxies in general, i think setting these is as important as setting
anonymous remailers, i hope there are some ppl with enough motivation and ressources
to help broadcast safe cyberculture.
Best Regards
-- paul




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From blancw at cnw.com  Wed Nov 12 01:16:16 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:16:16 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971112005006.00691888@cnw.com>



Kent Krispin wrote:

>Tim, like many, rationalizes his simmering anger by blaming it all on
>the "bastids in the gubmit".  But it doesn't take much insight to see 
>that there is something a little deeper going on, something a little 
>sad. 
..................................................


By jove, I think I've "got" it -  there *is* something deeper going on here:

Tim is really an undercover 'narc' -  through his provocative remarks he's
actually encouraging all the violent terrorists on the list to come out of
their lurking holes and reveal themselves.  Then he's going to turn them
all in for a cash reward, which he'll use to buy more high-tech stock.

Yeah, that's it!
    ..
Blanc






From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov 12 02:39:39 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:39:39 +0800
Subject: FREE PSYCHOANLYSIS NIGHT ON THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!!! / Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03110741b08e51241192@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <34698507.19B5@dev.null>



Kent Krispin wrote:
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > I call 'em as I see 'em, Tim. Actually, I would probably call what I said
> > there an "amateur psychological diagnosis". :-). Your mileage may vary.
> > That's what I get for indulging in the pseudoscience of psychology, I
> > suppose.
> 
> Speaking of which...

> Tim, like many, rationalizes his simmering anger by blaming it all on
> the "bastids in the gubmit".  But it doesn't take much insight to see
> that there is something a little deeper going on, something a little
> sad.
> [...]

  Since Dr. Crispin, like old Doc Hettinga, is making claims of being
able to recognize the subtle nuances of the psychological states of
other list members (patient May, in particular), I wonder if Kent is
equally adept at spotting the subtle psychological inferences in a
previous post.

~~~
  I agree with Tim (whether he said yet it, or not) that the 'feared'
is quickly becoming the 'undeniable.' The speed and volume of the 
'openly blatant' lies and increasingly recognizable 'hidden agendas'
is reaching a point where I am tempted to show my Crayola Conspiracy
Charts (TM) to the normal folks down at the bar and see if they
finally start nodding their heads, instead of laughing riotously.
  It's damn near like a good horror movie, where the nice people are
all still laughing and drinking champagne, but the darkly disturbing
cello sounds in the background are being emmitted with increasing
frequency, like the growing birth pains of the bewildered lady
who is about to give birth to the CypherPunk From Hell.
  ("We plan to name the baby Dimitri, if it's a boy, and Kent, if 
    it's a girl. <sorry--couldn't resist>)
~~~

(Subtle Hint: PENIS ENVY! PENIS ENVY!)

TOnight...the Band! / TOmorrow...the Dog!
~~                    ~~






From fred34 at netsix.com  Wed Nov 12 18:41:30 1997
From: fred34 at netsix.com (fred34 at netsix.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:41:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Computer Show Invittion
Message-ID: <Computer show 1275E-s Ticket>


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Wed Nov 12 02:49:35 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:49:35 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b08d18c99cbf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971111182249.735A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>





> Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
> government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.

Apparently so, I must say in this particular case I see a cause for an 
aquittal based on reasonable doubt, but I`m not a juror so I didn`t see 
all the evidence so my opinion is not really valid. The general principle 
concerning sentencing length still holds. I don`t know the spin in the US 
media on the Woodward story, I understand it was sympathetic to the 
defendant, the UK press has basically done what is usual whenever a high 
profile case is tried in a foreign court (eg. Deborah Parry and Lucille 
McLaughlin, the 2 nurses tried in saudi arabia for the murder of Yvonne 
Guildford, the UK media spin was that the saudi court was a crude inhuman 
system whereby public beheadings were handed out at the drop of a hat), 
and most UK papers were ranting about the "inhumanity" of giving a 19 
year old a life sentence for murder, hell, if she did it, kill the bitch.

> The au pair Louise Woodward will serve less time in jail than Jim Bell
> will. While Bell languishes in a Washington state jail, awaiting (for
> almost 7 months!!) his sentence, the convicted babykiller is now free.

Ah yes, but don`t forget Tim that in Amerika (The land of the free, 
remember?) the life of a child is of less value than the security of the 
state.

It makes a mockery of the judicial system that a judge can overturn a 
verdict like Zobel has done in the Woodward case, sure, allow her to 
appeal, but giving an appointed official the power to decide a verdict 
makes me sick, and a sentence of 279 days for manslaughter is a joke.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From attila at hun.org  Wed Nov 12 02:51:19 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:51:19 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971111233358.00a03ac8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971112.100558.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971111:1833, in <1.5.4.32.19971111233358.00a03ac8 at pop.pipeline.com>, 
    John Young <jya at pipeline.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>Dumb of me to get in the middle of this, but the bloodlust's
>up:

    the beast, John, remember the beast...

>Tim's statements are gutsy and right: there's no gain
>in self-censoring, shading one's anger to appease
>the goons of whatever firepower. (Bob, go to end.)

    yes, Bob, go to end, before I inflame you even more.
    that goes for the candy-ass left-wing Hallam-Baker, too.

>Most massive firepower can't focus on or hit exclusively
>small targets, that's what's a lie about "surgical" strikes. 
>Waste the countryside, yes, hit one rabbit and not the
>beloved dog and fellow hunter, little chance. What it
>takes is sharpshooting: a one shot, one target, one
>pig, one sticker.

    known fact, wipe 'em out one by one, including their pets.

>True, Horushi's snipe worked, it nailed an innocent, though
>a couple of others died to set him up for his own nailing.

>True, Waco worked, it charred a crowd of innocents, though a
>few others got plugged setting up the roast, and the 2nd roast.

    govt. instigation, to validate their need for more 
    suppressive laws on speech and firearms.

      "And the Clinton administration launched an attack
        on people in Texas because those people were
        religious nuts with guns.
       Hell, this country was founded by religious nuts 
        with guns." 
            --P.J.  O'Rourke.

    Ditto, Oklahoma City. classic case of burying the evidence, 
    literally.

>True, firebombing works, as does mass weaponing --nukes, 
>chemicals and germs -- but indiscriminately, by terrorism
>of the masses, at the price of also terrifying the citizenry 
>paying for the megadeath heritage.

    the zealot does not care. there has never been mercy in
    war, but only the losers stood for "war crimes" --until
    Lt. Calley.

>All standoff firepower is limited against the individual by 
>imprecision of the killing machines and cowardice of the
>operators -- artillery, planes, ships, satellites, take your
>pick. They savage territory to save the operator's ass,
>who, as anyone knows who been around these candyass
>strutters, aint got what it takes to cut the guy's throat
>who's stabbing your eye.

    real easy for the candystripers to send troops they've
    never seen to their deaths --they're just numbers and 
    statistics. the 30 day wonder boy 2nd lieutenant has a
    better than 50% chance of dying with a bullet in his
    back.

    then they send the more blatant and visible ones to
    spec-ops where we can all get down to some serious killing.

    look the killer in the eye --tap him upside the head to
    see if the light is still on, and you can read the writing
    on the back wall of the cranium. reality check.

    I'll take 500 more of those over 50,000 Marines, thank you.

>What's my point? Well, for lack of a better word, it's personal
>courage, going nuts when the time's right, the guts to not shut 
>the fuck up when you're told to by those who're a whole lot 
>bigger, who've got more armaments and thinks they're smarter 
>and more ruthless and meaner and have the troops, rank and 
>medals to back it up. Just remember that most of those strengths 
>are for getting somebody else or a machine to do what is too 
>fucking terrifying to do yourself directly.

    patience, John, patience... let them give the fucking orders,
    then just go and do the job right.  

    dont worry, the strutting bastards will claim the credit for
    your kill anyway.

>Do this when the monster accosts: pull your forelock, say sorry 
>sir, then upstab the fucker's groin, as he doubles, hack the cord,  he'll go
>down quivering, then cut out his liver, kick up his green  face, squat close,
>show him the blob, take a bite, chew, savor,  swallow, put lip to dying ear,
>whisper, "tasty."

    yup, wait until he moves into position, thinking he has his
    way, then put that boot on his gonads all the way to his 
    throat.  patience, patience, kill.

        then toss your calling card on the scene.

>Go home, get a beer, stare the tube, sharpen your tool. Or as
>maddog Tim sez, lock and load.

    I doubt Tim has his tools visible --just handy.

>But look, I'm with Bob, too, my tool's philosophy gone berzerk,
>trash words, wags, gags, alliterations, mouth shooting. My steel 
>weapons are locked from burglars who scare the shit out of me just by looking
>like ordinarily ugly wall streeters, that is, like my maddog  neighbors eyeing
>me for junk IPO sales.

    sure hate to be that maddog neighbor if he rubbed on you, 
    John.  who you kidding?

>Sure glad my war's long over, happily getting dimmer, easier to forget the
>godawful. Hey, it's veteran's day, anybody want to croak and limp  to glories
>past?

    remember 1964.

    my uncle was 40 when he reupped Marines NCO for WWII; he was
    50 when he tried to reup Marines for Korea--they wouldn't
    let him go Marines, but he did go to Inchon as a Navy 
    Seabee...

    in 1950, and even at the beginning of the 60s we thought we
    were doing our duty for God and for country --wrong.
    
    no, and I aint goin' to shut up with those bastards from
    Washington disgracing themselves and pissing away our 
    heritage in the New World Order bullshit --it's them same
    old stories of rape, pillage, and burn by the privileged 
    class --redistribution of wealth, disenfranchise the
    rest of us...  

    nothing new in history; read Catulus or Marcellus from 2,000 
    years ago.

    to the victor goes the spoils? not necessarily.

        to the victor goes the right to [re]write history.

    which is why crypto freedom is our freedom.

   "Giving money and power to the government is like
      giving whiskey and car keys to teenaged boys"
        --P J O'Rourke

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 12 03:47:09 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:47:09 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199711112333.RAA02693@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711121125.MAA21236@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Try this Monty:

The new owner of the Monty persona is defined to be the first public
key which is signed by Monty's private key and posted to this forum.

So the buyer sends Monty a public key, and Monty signs it and posts it
to the list.  (Optionally via a trusted third party to ensure fair
play.  There is a race condition in the making there but it's not too
bad, we could fix it if we were bothered.)

So Monty can cheat and post one he signed earlier selling to a
different key, but we will ignore those because we base it on first
posted.

Buyers will no longer be interested in buying Monty's persona after
they have seen it sold, because they know it is no longer his.

The person who buys Monty's persona could resell it.  Using the same
protocol.

Amad3us

(As there seems to be some confusion about my public key block, here
it is again with Version field and blank line; I surmise that the
problem Bill Stewart encountered was that pgp5.0 can't handle armor
without blank lines (or maybe without blank lines and Version))

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Version: 2.6.3i

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From mitch at duzen.com.tr  Wed Nov 12 04:38:37 1997
From: mitch at duzen.com.tr (S. M. Halloran)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:38:37 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b08d18c99cbf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711121324.PAA14037@ankara.duzen.com.tr>



On 11 Nov 97, Paul Bradley <paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk> was found to have 
commented thusly:

> 
> > Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
> > government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.
> 
> Apparently so, I must say in this particular case I see a cause for an 
> aquittal based on reasonable doubt, but I`m not a juror so I didn`t see 
> all the evidence so my opinion is not really valid. The general principle 

The question is why she shook the baby at all.  If you have a sick 
baby, you call the emergency medical services, period!   And especially 
if the child is not your own.

This 19-year old was way out of her league and not at all fit for 
child care activities.  I am a firm believer that baby care for 3 year 
olds and less should be licensed.  The requirements for the license 
would be minimal.  It just merely shows that you understand that babies 
less than 1 year of age often cry--some hardly at all, others damn near 
all the time--and that 97% of the time there is a reason that can be 
found and the solution implemented, and the other 3% of the time the 
reason is beyond our understanding, but things will just seem to take 
care of themselves.  The licensing procedure might also be a way of 
checking if you have the minimal temperment to deal with infants and 
small children.

I frankly think the 19 year-old is guilty of negligent homicide (that 
is, causing the death of the baby because of ignorance of proper baby 
care).  I could go on and on about my idea of proper 
parenting (and baby care), but I don't think the people on this list 
would like the drift.

> It makes a mockery of the judicial system that a judge can overturn a 
> verdict like Zobel has done in the Woodward case, sure, allow her to 
> appeal, but giving an appointed official the power to decide a verdict 
> makes me sick, and a sentence of 279 days for manslaughter is a joke.

Having lived on the outside of America now for some time, I know that 
those who are not Americans have a hard time figuring out our justice 
system.  But although each state has its own set of penal codes, they 
are pretty much uniform in their agreement about trial procedure 
regarding disposition of felonies.  I think there is a reasonable 
argument that the prosecution should be interested in justice or in 
being a representative of The People of the State of ...:  does the 
prosecutor really believe that the accused committed the crime, or is 
there a district attorney election coming up and this murder rap has to 
go down soon?

What about the judge?  His first purpose is to make sure the law is 
followed, especially with respect to trial procedure.  But with the law 
is JUSTICE!  It has always been my belief that the ultimate goal of 
these sacred occasions is justice.  In California--from where I come 
and a state which often leads in setting standards of 
jurisprudence--the judge has the absolute right to overturn a 
guilty verdict or modify it in some way rather than let it go to an 
appellate court and make those guys mad.

The judge in this case never overturned the verdict (an action 
appealable in any case) but said she was guilty of the crime of shaking 
the baby to death, but not intentionally.  Since the 19 year old 
doesn't deny shaking or "rough handling" the baby, there is no 
reasonable doubt.  In my state, she is guilty of voluntary 
manslaughter.  I also would have sentenced her to receive instruction 
on how to be a better parent and how to "chill out" whenever a baby 
cries.  gawdhelpusall, but one day this woman may be a mother!

I am rather curious to know where public opinion lies in the UK, just 
to get a fix on cultural differences.

Mitch Halloran
Research Biochemist/C programmer/Sequoia's (dob 12-20-95) daddy
Duzen Laboratories Group
Ankara   TURKEY
mitch at duzen.com.tr






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 12 05:05:16 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:05:16 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711120444.WAA02100@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v031107aab08f55821ff0@[139.167.130.248]>



At 11:44 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Jim Choate wrote:


> No, being a ferret is *not* an insult but rather a compliment. Pound for
> pound if you got to pick a fight don't pick one with felines or mustellids
> they *will* kick your weasy little butt.

I meant no insult to ferrets. I like ferrets. (Yes, I know, you know
ferrets, ferrets are friends of yours, and I'm no ferret. :-)) In fact, I
used ferrets on purpose, because I like them, and mere was a direct
reference to relative size and nothing else.

Could you admit, that in a showdown between a ferret and a lion, the ferret
would be best served using his brain rather than his claws?

I knew you could...

Cheers,
Bob "Aseop" Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 12 05:23:20 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:23:20 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb08e6e08c8f3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v031107a6b08f53b9b499@[139.167.130.248]>



At 11:18 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

Feh. A typo.

> Now, Tim, is over the top. Whether it's nonsense, of course, I leave for
      ^ that, ^
> others to judge.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From nobody at neva.org  Wed Nov 12 05:31:51 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:31:51 +0800
Subject: Minor Language Note
Message-ID: <199711121323.HAA28678@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>My main point was that James Dalton Bell has already spent nearly 7
>months in jail, and has yet to even be sentenced.

While it was not Tim's intention to make Jim look like a criminal, the
use of a defendent's full name is often used to connote criminality.

Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, John Wayne Gacy, Richard Milhous
Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton... there are many examples.

I propose we call Jim by the name he calls himself: Jim Bell.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Wed Nov 12 05:32:36 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:32:36 +0800
Subject: Databasix conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <199711121324.HAA28802@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
>My point being that a remailer operator has no way of knowing what
>the ultimate effect of *any* filtering/blocking will be. (Unless you
>read all of the email, like I do as the 'Bad Remailer' operator.)

If you are going to run a remailer, you had better expect that some of
the people who use it aren't going to be your friends.

>It has been my experience that the 'Fear of Spam/Abuse' is beginning
>to be the controlling factor in the usefulness, or lack thereof, of
>an increasing number of remailers.

And this has to be the lowest pressure attack on remailers that there
can be.  God forbid anybody should try for real to shut down the
remailer network.

This is understandable - running a remailer offers little tangible
reward.

On the other hand, if somebody were making $500,000 a year running a
remailer, they might defend it a little more vigorously.  And, if they
didn't, somebody in the Carribbean might be happy to snap up the
business.

>I cannot help but feel that there has to be some simple ways of
>addressing the spam/abuse issue without making the remailers a hit
>and miss proposition for the average computer user.

Here are two simple solutions: 1. charge hashcash 2. charge ecash.

This eliminates the spam problem.  It would probably reduce the
harrassment problem as well.

>e.g. - A stated policy of allowing only 'X' number of emails from the
>same address/ISP per day--UCE spammers *could* work around this, but
>they make money by speed and volume, not by farting around with
>this-and-that.

This is not a good idea.  I like being able to pump a few megabytes a
day through the remailer network to create cover traffic.  Right now
this would be an act of bad citizenship.

But, if we were paying for remailer usage it would be a good thing.
Good for me, good for the businesses I patronize.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From mark at unicorn.com  Wed Nov 12 05:50:15 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (mark at unicorn.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:50:15 +0800
Subject: PGP's SMTP enforcer and ISPs
Message-ID: <879341609.22334.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>



Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com wrote:
>(Jon Callas recommends 
>using -----BEGIN ZZZ ENCRYPTED STUFF----- to avoid the PGP SMTP filters
> :-)

This is another bizarre issue in the whole CMR saga. PGP Inc are going
to corporations and telling them that the SMTP enforcer will allow them
to read all incoming email. Then they go out on the Net and tell people
how to get around the system. Either their customers are as dumb as PGP
appear to think, or the corporations will simply scrap CMR and just escrow 
keys in case people start taking PGP Inc's advice.

    Mark






From justdoit at ultra-mail.com  Wed Nov 12 21:51:33 1997
From: justdoit at ultra-mail.com (justdoit at ultra-mail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:51:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: DOUBLING  " your"  PROFITS!
Message-ID: <199711130551.VAA03433@toad.com>



Hello Entrepreneurs,

ONLINE SUCCESS-THE DIRECT E-MAIL MLM THAT DOES IT ALL FOR YOU!

  If you have been looking at the exciting possibilities and INCOME that
  bulk e-mailing can bring to you, Online Success is the program for
  you, and it is a brand-new way to make money with 35million prospects
  online and more joining daily!

  We do ALL phases of bulk e-mailing for you. You collect the profits
  from your e-mail ads, and we do the work, month after month! Consider
  the benefits of having a professional bulk e-mailing firm working for
  you:

  ELIMINATE the hassles of lost dial-up ISP accounts, mail-bombs,
  undeliverable addresses, and expensive bulk e-mail software that
  doesn't perform as advertised! No more technical headaches and
  frustrations with so-called "bulk-friendly" providers that come and go
  every day.

  GET YOUR AD DELIVERED to 10,000 people every month! Best of all, we
  collect all the addresses, remove those we know that don't want e-mail
  ads, take out addresses like governments,schools,military and
  "flamers" BEFORE your mailing is ever sent! Your sales message only
  goes to buyers, not people who don't want bulk e-mail or should never
  be sent it!

  SIT BACK AND RECEIVE only prospects,sales, and further information
  responses. All mail is sent from Online Success, and all replies go
  directly to your account on our bomb-proof servers. We take out what
  you DON'T want: the flames,remove requests,and counter-offers, then
  send  YOU the responses that lead to profit!

  GET PAID by Online Success a very nice 50% commission for those you
  refer to our complete bulk e-mail services! Two ways to earn money:
  the results from your own 10,000 e-mails every month, and anyone you
  sponsor into the Online Success MLM program!

  NO GIMMICKS OR CATCHES to slow you down! Your ad runs completely by
  itself, and you are allowed up to 200 lines to promote your business
  or service with the monthly 10,000 e-mails. Say GOODBYE to
  fly-by-night companies or silly pyramid schemes......Online Success is
  a PROFESSIONAL organization consisting of 10 bulk e-mailing experts
  that are dedicated to helping you turn the Internet into your personal
  gold mine!

  For the exciting full details on this one and only Direct E-Mail MLM,
  see the Online Success company's web site at:

  Very Important Your Sponsers ID# 109, you will need to put it on the 
  application form.

  http://www.online-group.com

  if the above site is too busy, the exact site is also at:

  http://www.online-success.com

    P.S. Join NOW and get a MONTH of e-mails for FREE! You'll receive
  20,000 e-mails instead of 10,000, potentially DOUBLING your profits!
  Hurry, this offer from Online Success is for a limited time. Make sure
  you do not miss this new and exciting opportunity that will take the
  Internet by storm!

  
  To be removed from any future mailings from our company and many
  others, please reply with REMOVE as the subject.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Wed Nov 12 06:00:41 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:00:41 +0800
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <d03fa8451863be05cb9a3731414eb94b@anon.efga.org>



Anonymous wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
 
> Better have our fearless leader, Jim Bell, convene a Melatonin People's
> Court, immediately. (The rest of you guys signed and returned the
> 'secret oath' that Jim sent last week, too, didn't you?)
> 
> :: B o o t s

Bye, Boots. It's been nice knowin' ya.








From jootero14 at netcom.com  Wed Nov 12 22:08:47 1997
From: jootero14 at netcom.com (internazionale)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:08:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: I found you
Message-ID: <19971112665BAA47759@27364y34720w90nd82m2037.gateway.com>


NEW IMPROVED with FREE software, FEE bulk e mail system,  FREE web site to do what you wish, ongoing support (optional), and a lot more! all included.

...........this is a one time mailing...............

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\$\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
you  are about to make at least $50,000
In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...then read it again...
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Dear friend,
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly
believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. 
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a
pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money
back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN
LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to
fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't
turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,
no matter how much money it cost me!.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you
read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in  20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100
OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program
does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of
not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work,
you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this. 
Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20
to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way
to financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!
                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free
lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through
trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally
figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the
right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have
made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been
very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business
for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that
had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of
the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will
be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did,
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil
and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested. 
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT
WORKS!
                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With
a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made
their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics
show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level
Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Dothis
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a
           SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10)                    to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International            
           orders should also include $2 extra for postage. It is
           essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
           report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You
           will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
           and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
           other than what the instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always
           provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will
           tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring
           email lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
           encourage them to take  advantage of this  fabulous 
           money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they
           love me now, more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and
           everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get email
           addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in
           email mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000
           addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 USD CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
(International orders should also include $2 USD extra for postage) 
Add you e amil address when sending in for your report this is for updated information and continueing support (optional) that will be handed down by you sponcers.
______________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
J. Maz 
15774 S. LaGrange Rd 
suite #312
Orland Pk, IL 60462
USA

______________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

A. Siegmund #57
Trakehnenstr. 13
53332 Bornheim, Germany

______________________________________________________REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

B. Thompson
13504 Greencaslte ridge Tr.  404
Burtonsville MD. 20866

______________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

MUW #2
PO BOX 71442
SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84171-0442
______________________________________________________

CONCLUSION
.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 12 06:38:42 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:38:42 +0800
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
Message-ID: <199711121431.PAA11022@basement.replay.com>



It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika 
is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

I've been looking around for about a week, and the only country that's
looked good so far was Anguilla (lower travel costs for FC99!), but it
doesn't meet my requirements for a number of reasons...

Key features I'm looking for are:

1) Stable political environment. I'm making the move, after all, to AVOID
participation in a civil war.

2) Stable economy, with local sources for all the basics (food, water,
energy).

3) Reasonable level of medical technology, and local talent. I want good
care for my wife during childbirth, for instance.

4) A job market for unix sysadmins / networking gurus / hackers would be
nice, but I wouldn't mind learning a new trade either.

5) Right to keep & bear arms + Freedom of speech are musts, other
"bill of rights" type laws strongly desired.

6) Low or no taxes would be nice, but if the first five points are met
even a fairly high (30-40%) tax rate would be endurable.

So... any suggestions?






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 12 06:47:07 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:47:07 +0800
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
Message-ID: <199711121431.PAA10956@basement.replay.com>



It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika 
is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

I've been looking around for about a week, and the only country that's
looked good so far was Anguilla (lower travel costs for FC99!), but it
doesn't meet my requirements for a number of reasons...

Key features I'm looking for are:

1) Stable political environment. I'm making the move, after all, to AVOID
participation in a civil war.

2) Stable economy, with local sources for all the basics (food, water,
energy).

3) Reasonable level of medical technology, and local talent. I want good
care for my wife during childbirth, for instance.

4) A job market for unix sysadmins / networking gurus / hackers would be
nice, but I wouldn't mind learning a new trade either.

5) Right to keep & bear arms + Freedom of speech are musts, other
"bill of rights" type laws strongly desired.

6) Low or no taxes would be nice, but if the first five points are met
even a fairly high (30-40%) tax rate would be endurable.

So... any suggestions?






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 12 06:51:32 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:51:32 +0800
Subject: NoneRe: Databasix conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <199711121408.PAA07532@basement.replay.com>



Andy Dustman <andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu> wrote:

> > Maybe the next time Gary, Linda, or Paul send a remailer operator a
> > complaint, the operator will know what to expect next. 
> 
> I did get one complaint from Gary Burnore about stuff being sent directly
> to him. He wasn't a jerk about it, and I haven't heard a peep out of him
> since.

Jeff Burchell's systems, Mailmasher and Huge Cajones, seemed to bear the
brunt of the wrath and attacks by Gary Burnore and his associates Billy
McClatchie (aka "Wotan") and Belinda Bryan.  Perhaps that's because they
were most often utilized by one or more of his detractors in posting public
criticism about the tactics of himself, his company, and his associates.

> > thing that's not so random is the high percentage of words that are
> > related to DataBasix, such as "DataBasix", "Burnore", and "Wotan".  I'm
> > almost waiting for Gary Burnore to give the remailer and mail2news
> > operators a "helpful" suggestion that they could curb most of this
> > "abuse" by simply blocking any anonymous posts containing any of those
> > three keywords. <g> Or perhaps he's done so and politely been turned
> > down. 
> 
> He's never asked us, at least. Although, when spam-baiting started hot and
> heavy this summer, another Databasix employee did suggest that his address
> should not appear in posts. I made it quite clear we don't check for
> specific names, words, or addresses, and that he was a legitimate topic of
> discussion. Never heard back after that, and this was several months ago.

IMO, that's a good policy.  In fact, the best strategy seems to be to have a
plan in place before starting a remailer so that when attacks and/or demands
come in, the operator will have already decided what responses are appropriate
and what aren't.  To fail to do that is to leave one's system open to
"designer abuse" where a certain kind of fabricated abuse implies a certain
"cure", which is exactly why the abuser did it in the first place.  For
example, if someone comes along and starts spamming newsgroups, seemingly at
random, and the common thread seems to be that each of the spams mentions
Gary Burnore or DataBasix, the "obvious" solution would seem to be block all
posts which include the keywords "Burnore" or "DataBasix".  By doing that, you
stop the abuse -- as well as effectively censoring any anonymous criticism of
Gary Burnore and DataBasix.  It's not hard to figure out the motives behind
such actions.

> > Perhaps the next wave of attacks on remailers will not consist of
> > attempts to shut them down altogether but to progressively cripple them
> > by getting certain features disabled, one by one.  This seems to have
> > already started.  The strategy seems to be to fabricate a form of
> > "abuse", anonymously through remailers, for which the seemingly
> > "logical" solution is to disable a certain feature.  This has already
> > proven successful with header pasting, for example.  Now you can't post
> > to Usenet and set the From: address to that of your own 'nym. 
> 
> If you really want the post to have the From: address of your nym, send
> the post with your nym and not with the remailer as the last hop. The
> point of anonymous remailers is to be anonymous. If you want to use a
> psuedonym, use a nymserver.

If I remember correctly, the documentation for at least one of the nymservers
suggested that posting through a remailer and pasting in the return address
would be quicker and impose less burden on the server than having to process
each outgoing message through the server.

> >  If the "camel" can get his nose under the tent and convince operators
> > to start filtering on the *CONTENT* of the Subject: line or body of
> > usenet posts, the anti-privacy nuts will have scored a major victory. 
> > In fact, from reading Jeff Burchell's posts, it looks like Gary and his
> > DataBasux-ers had initially convinced Jeff to do exactly that.  But, in
> > a symbolic victory for freedom of speech, he removed those filters for a
> > week before he finally shut down Huge Cajones altogether. 
> 
> Cracker does have a spam-bait mangler which is somewhat simpler than the
> scheme Jeff used. In a nutshell, if there are an inordinately large number
> of addresses (compared to other text), the addresses are mangled, i.e.,
> president at whitehouse.gov becomes president <AT> whitehouse <DOT> gov.
> Still human-readable but useless for address harvesters. No posts get
> dropped or filtered out under this scheme, and no keywords or particular
> addresses are looked for.

I'm not sure that even that is a wise precedent to set.  In itself it seems
innocuous enough, but it could always lead to a demand, "Well, you already
mangle e-mail addresses contained in the bodies of posts, so why not also
alter the contents of posts in the following way..."

Also, I hope that your mangler is smart enough to distinguish e-mail addresses
from lists of Usenet message IDs, since a list of such references should be
perfectly valid in the body of a post.  The problem with destroying machine
readability of e-mail addresses is that many newsreaders will turn an e-mail
address into a hot link where one could simply click on it to send e-mail.  If
someone were to anonymously post a message in support of or in opposition to
a certain piece of legislation, and include a list of the e-mail addresses of
the Congress-critters on a certain committee considering that bill, such a
scheme might defeat the purpose of the list.  IMO, anything that makes posting
via a remailer less functional than doing so non-anonymously is ultimately
detrimental to the cause of privacy.

BTW, is there any evidence to indicate that anyone is really harvesting e-mail
addresses from the BODIES of Usenet posts?  Gary Burnore posts his flames quite
widely, so it's quite likely that any bulk e-mailing lists he's on is the
result of his (non-mangled) e-mail address being in the From: line of his own 
posts.

Perhaps the ultimate reality check is whether someone is seeking to impose a
standard on remailers that's stricter than the one imposed on the phone company
or the postal service.  I can drop some coins in a pay phone and call anyone at
any time.  The functionality of a public phone is not restricted merely because
the users are not identified.  Similarly, I can drop a letter in a public mailbox
without anyone verifying my identity.  No return address is required.  Or I can
write in a return address and nobody will check whether it's "genuine" or
"forged".  It would be ludicrous, for example, for someone who had received a
couple of crank phone calls from payphones to demand that the phone company
either totally prevent this abuse from ever happening again or else remove all of 
its pay phones!  And yet those are exactly the demands that anti-privacy zealots 
have made on remailers, and often they've succeeded.

Should one's willingness to broadcast his/her name and e-mail address 
indiscriminately to a WORLDWIDE newsgroup be a prerequisite for one to express
one's views?  Is that not tantamount to saying that one cannot walk down the
street without wearing a badge containing his name, address, and phone number for
all to read?  Or should one's name and e-mail address be considered his property
to be divulged only if and when he chooses?

--
Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.

 -- General William Westmoreland   






From mepemie15 at aol.com  Wed Nov 12 22:56:00 1997
From: mepemie15 at aol.com (mepemie15 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:56:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: " GET IT ALL FREE "
Message-ID: <199711131153IAA34581@kw4ust6d.web2000.net>





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From isparkes at q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de  Wed Nov 12 07:10:50 1997
From: isparkes at q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de (Ian Sparkes)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:10:50 +0800
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
In-Reply-To: <199711121431.PAA11022@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971112160109.006af458@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>



At 15:31 12.11.97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika 
>is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
>it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

I would have suggested Germany, but it seems to fail the meet the critera
on about 84% of the points. =:)

When you find out where you're headed, let me know. I'll see you there.
            \!!/
          ( o  o )  
+------ooO--(_)--Ooo-+---------------------------------------------------+
|  .oooO             | PGP5 Key Fingerprint:                             |  
| (    )    Oooo.    | 1F59 CADC 951E ADAD 5EA5  9544 FCCE 8E30 4988 551E|
|  \   (    (    )   | "Ian.Sparkes at T-Online.de" "Ian.Sparkes at ac.com"    |
|    \__)    )  /    |                                                   |
|           (__/     | Life empiricist and confused ethical hedonist     |
+--------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| I'm not your lawer, you're not my client. This is therefore not advice |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+






From declan at well.com  Wed Nov 12 07:59:56 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:59:56 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <v0300780db08f7e130017@[204.254.22.139]>



---

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:30:20 -0500
To: Declan McCullagh <declan at pathfinder.com>
From: Solveig Singleton <solveig at cato.org>
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole (fwd)

I am simply delighted to see that there is a cypherpunk/ferret connection.
They are charming animals; you simply have not lived until you have had one
deploy its highly evolved predatory instincts to pull the insoles out of all
your shoes and hide them under the bed, along with all the attachments from
the vacuum cleaner.

Feel free to post this, if you like.








From frissell at panix.com  Wed Nov 12 08:26:02 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:26:02 +0800
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
In-Reply-To: <199711121431.PAA11022@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971112111546.0077f570@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:31 PM 11/12/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:

>It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika 
>is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
>it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

Certainly Gary North's "Remnant Review" promotes this view and is causing 
many Right-Wing Nuts to experience bouts of severe depression.  I am not as 
pessimistic.  civil war seems much less likely now than it has in various 
times past.

>I've been looking around for about a week, and the only country that's
>looked good so far was Anguilla (lower travel costs for FC99!), but it
>doesn't meet my requirements for a number of reasons...

Bad net connections.

>Key features I'm looking for are:

>1) Stable political environment. I'm making the move, after all, to AVOID
>participation in a civil war.

The US has had the most stable (even self-satisfied) political environment in 
the world for the last 150 years or so.  Most European and Asian countries 
have been conquered by fascists or communists for some period over that 
timeline.  Switzerland has been stable for 150 years or so.  Hard to get into 
though.

>2) Stable economy, with local sources for all the basics (food, water,
>energy).

Rough in an integrated world.  There goes Japan, all of Africa, most of Asia 
and South America (stable economy).  You are stuck with the OECD countries 
(and Bermuda).

>3) Reasonable level of medical technology, and local talent. I want good
>care for my wife during childbirth, for instance.

The OECD countries.  The High Seas might otherwise qualify but they lack 
doctors.

>4) A job market for unix sysadmins / networking gurus / hackers would be
>nice, but I wouldn't mind learning a new trade either.

The OECD countries.

>5) Right to keep & bear arms + Freedom of speech are musts, other
>"bill of rights" type laws strongly desired.

What kind of free speech do you want?  Sex or hate?  The US is the only safe 
haven for "hate" and political speech.  A number of countries bordering on 
the North and Baltic Seas are reasonably safe for sex speech.  You have to 
choose.  

For guns it almost has to be the US.  Most Swiss Cantons have lax gun laws 
but the Federal Government passed a new law to take effect next year that 
restricts concealed carry and other aspects of gun freedom.  Switzerland will 
remain better than other European countries in this regard.  Since the UK 
recently banned all private ownership of any handguns it is obviously off the 
list.

Mozambique and Afghanistan have loss some of the gun freedoms they had a few 
years ago (open weapons markets and low prices) and fail you criteria for 
other reasons. 

Most tax havens have quite restrictive gun laws.

>6) Low or no taxes would be nice, but if the first five points are met
>even a fairly high (30-40%) tax rate would be endurable.

New Hampshire or Alaska.

DCF
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From Doug_Tygar at cs.cmu.edu  Wed Nov 12 08:29:38 1997
From: Doug_Tygar at cs.cmu.edu (Doug_Tygar at cs.cmu.edu)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:29:38 +0800
Subject: SET
Message-ID: <2325.879351741@tygar.trust.cs.cmu.edu>



rah at shipwright.com wrote:

>At Doug Tygar's talk at Harvard last week, he claimed to have found a way
>to crack it. I, um, forgot to press him on this. Has anyone heard about
>this, or what it might be?

Actually, I did not claim to break SET.  What I said was:

(a)  because SET is such a complicated protocol, I am certain that it
     does have flaws;
(b)  SET does not have a clear design philosophy -- for example, it has
     modes in which a consumer's credit card number is hidden from a
     merchant and modes when it is given to a merchant.  These ambiguous
     design points in the protocol make the protocol vulnerable to misuse.

I have not made a serious effort to crack SET, yet.

-- Doug Tygar






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 12 08:51:16 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:51:16 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971111233358.00a03ac8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v031107ccb08f6fe1522b@[139.167.130.248]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 6:31 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Tim May wrote:


> One need only think back to the words of Patrick Henry, Jefferson, Thomas
> Paine, and all the others. No doubt Bob H. would have argued that they
> should cool their anger, silence their words, and not give King George a
> "good reason" to crack down on the Colonies.

No. I'm saying something more on the order of hanging together and not
hanging separately, if we have to hang at all. I suppose I was too obscure
earlier, when I said:

> > Even Patrick Henry had
> > um, common sense, about such things.

Meaning of course, when Patrick Henry... --- Oops, Thomas Paine, sorry,
transposed my patriots there -- first stood up to be counted, he did it with
a pseudonym.

> Or tell Eugene Debs to stop talking about the illegality of the draft and
> stop talking about the mistake of entering the Great War to support some
> duchies and satrapies. (Debs was jailed for his _speech_...so much for the
> First Amendment, even back in the 1918 time period.)

Yes. He was jailed. And we still had the draft. And your point is?

Mine was that free speech is frequently honored in the breach in this
country. Debs, and all the others you're talking about, are proof of that.

Frankly, waving your Glock at the local sherriff and daring him to come
shoot you out of der MayBunker is not just free speech, it's, charitably,
grandstanding. Making a threat on the life of a judge, or even begging for
Washington to be nuked -- something you can't possibly do yourself -- is in
the same catagory of "will someone rid me of this priest",  or "but that
would be wrong", or the Castro assination exhortations which inspired Oswald
to kill JFK. In this country, it's all free speech, but that doesn't keep
you from getting impaled, "accidentally" or otherwise, on the pointy end of
the state, or public opinion, when you piss it off.

> And so on. Throughout history there have been those who spoke their mind.
> And others who told them to cool it, to not anger the local prince, to not
> rock the boat.

No, Tim. Your analysis is too simple, here. My point is, all John Brown &
Co. did was get shot up one afternoon in Harper's Ferry. They didn't help
the cause of abolition one whit. Same goes for Gordon Call, or even Timothy
McVeigh, and what they were trying to achieve.


In other words, standing in front of the bug hole all by yourself and
saying, "c'mon, put 'em up" doesn't usually work. Even with the guys on the
rude bridge at Concord, or the people massacred in Boston, or the "nest of
traitors" at the Old South Church, the American revolution wouldn't have
happened without the Continental Congress to raise money (questionable
methods or not) to pay the army. Hanging together, and all that, and more.
It was the only way at the time to organize force in such a way as to assure
success (however tenuous that assurance was when given).

And, I think, when *this* revolution comes, it won't be between the first
real nation-state and its aristocratic colonial power. It will be between a
new kind of power structure and the concept of the nation-state itself. It
*won't* be "give me liberty or give me death".  It'll be the nation state
devolving into a ceremonial entity, violently or not, just like the
aristocracy did before it, with all the real decisions being made in
efficient internetworked markets for anything which can be digitized --
which, of course, will be the only things that matter. Markets with perfect
pseudonymity, anonymous cash settlement, and all the other things you and I
both agree are coming. You call it cryptoanarchy, Duncan calls it
MarketEarth, I call it a geodesic economy, but we're all describing the same
elephant. :-).

> While I don't necessarily put myself  in their class, it's clear to me
that
> America stands for basically libertarian principles, of letting people say
> and read whatever they damned well please. This can include denying the
> Holocaust, preaching the Gospel of Satan, calling for certain judges to be
> taken out into the parking lot and executed by firing squad, or even
> calling for the overthrow of the government.

Right. And you can expect that the government, as a self-perpetuating
entity, and not something which actually has morals and obeys even its own
laws, will come out onto that parking lot and squash you like a, um, bug, in
order to shut you up.

> When we let the spectre of crackdowns by Louis Freeh and Janet Reno cause
> us to self-censor ourselves, then they have well and truly won.

Amen. However, the beauty of strong crypto, and tools like remailers, --
tools which you inspired the creation of -- is that you can yell as loud
about injustice as you want, including calls for extreme rectification of
that injustice, with a modicum of confidence in your personal safety. After
all, the object is to make something happen, not just to kill yourself.

On the net, reputation is orthogonal to biometric identity, as we both say
here all the time. You don't *have* to go sit on a mountaintop and wait for
the powers that be to come up there and shoot you off of it in order to
speak your mind.


Now, Tim, if you want to make yourself St. Joan of Corralitos, or the John
Brown of Santa Clara, you're perfectly welcome to do so. I just don't think
it's going to get you anywhere, except maybe famous and dead. I also think
I've said all I can to you on the subject without repeating myself. I'm sure
you're in the same position yourself.


I suppose it's my own respect for you, because of the rest of what you say
on this list and elsewhere, and the things we do agree on, that causes me to
try to talk you out of this particular bad idea. I think a lot of other
folks agree with me. People who agree with you about everything but getting
yourself killed on principle when nothing tangible will be the result.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 12 09:22:35 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:22:35 +0800
Subject: FREE PSYCHOANLYSIS NIGHT ON THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!!!
In-Reply-To: <v03110741b08e51241192@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b08f856eebc9@[207.167.93.63]>



At 3:29 AM -0700 11/12/97, TruthMonger wrote:

>  Since Dr. Crispin, like old Doc Hettinga, is making claims of being
>able to recognize the subtle nuances of the psychological states of
>other list members (patient May, in particular), I wonder if Kent is
>equally adept at spotting the subtle psychological inferences in a
>previous post.

There seems to be an unhealthy desire by some to "armchair psychoanalyze"
the motivations and inner motivations of others. In recent days, me. (And
in the past, too. This recent episode of moaning about "What makes Tim say
the things he does? is not new...we've seen this script before.)

Detweiler used to rant for pages and pages about my state of mind and how
my words were "torturing" him, and on and on. This was an unhealthy
fixation on me, in my not so humble opinion.

Now Hettinga seems to have again fallen into this state. Though he styles
himself as an astute observer of human behavior, he fails utterly to
persuade with his insults and whinings.

Bob, get a life. Go do something useful. Make some real money.

Just stop whining about how I'm not sending you money to finance your
"Geodesic Hothouse Enterprises," or whatever, startups. And just stop
whining about how we all ought to tone down our words and so not make Big
Brother angry.

--Tim May

(P.S. The recent "Kent Krispin" posts are of course not from Kent Crispin.
I know that. But I do recall Crispin being one of the handful who got into
the "let's psychoanalyze the motivations of others" mode, so the comments
above are by Toto or whomever are actually not too far off base.)

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 12 09:41:45 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:41:45 +0800
Subject: SET
In-Reply-To: <2325.879351741@tygar.trust.cs.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <v031107d1b08f8f625fc9@[139.167.130.248]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:22 am -0500 on 11/12/97, Doug_Tygar at cs.cmu.edu wrote:


> Actually, I did not claim to break SET.  What I said was:
>
> (a)  because SET is such a complicated protocol, I am certain that it
>      does have flaws;
> (b)  SET does not have a clear design philosophy -- for example, it has
>      modes in which a consumer's credit card number is hidden from a
>      merchant and modes when it is given to a merchant.  These ambiguous
>      design points in the protocol make the protocol vulnerable to misuse.
>
> I have not made a serious effort to crack SET, yet.

Great. Thanks. Looking forward to seeing what you get.

Personally, I'm becoming convinced that SET is practically Ptolmaic in it's
complexity. You can get money from point A to point B, but you have to go
through a lot of epicycles to get there.

Transactional shovelware, maybe. Not unlike a lot of digital signature
legislation out there.

Unfortunately, I think that no MIS manager will get fired for using SET, and
it'll take a serious demonstration of a security breach before people will
listen to anything else. At least until someone demonstrates a transaction
protocol which is, say 3 orders of magnitude cheaper...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From ericm at lne.com  Wed Nov 12 10:04:17 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:04:17 +0800
Subject: SET
In-Reply-To: <2325.879351741@tygar.trust.cs.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <199711121751.JAA01757@slack.lne.com>



Doug_Tygar at cs.cmu.edu writes:
> 
> rah at shipwright.com wrote:
> 
> >At Doug Tygar's talk at Harvard last week, he claimed to have found a way
> >to crack it. I, um, forgot to press him on this. Has anyone heard about
> >this, or what it might be?
> 
> Actually, I did not claim to break SET.  What I said was:
> 
> (a)  because SET is such a complicated protocol, I am certain that it
>      does have flaws;
> (b)  SET does not have a clear design philosophy -- for example, it has
>      modes in which a consumer's credit card number is hidden from a
>      merchant and modes when it is given to a merchant.  These ambiguous
>      design points in the protocol make the protocol vulnerable to misuse.

I agree completely.  The people involved in the SET "standards effort" 
seem to have relatively little concern about security compared to
say the TLS working group.  There are smart security-aware people
involved but the process is controlled by non-security-aware
card company VPs.

 
> I have not made a serious effort to crack SET, yet.

Neither have I, but I've already found a significant privacy problem
which would allow merchants to determine who else a cardholder has
made purchases from.  When I posted details to the set-discuss list
the response from the SET czars was "so what?".

[details: according to the spec the cardholder sends to the merchant
thumbs (SHA1 hashes) of all the certs in the cardholder's cert cache.
Since this will contain certs from merchants the cardholder has
made purchases from in the past, a merchant could simply match up
those merchant cert thumbs with cert thumbs he obtains from other
merchants, allowing him to build a list of merchants the cardholder has
attempted to make purchases from].

When the right people do make an effort to crack SET 1.0, it's quite likely
to be broken.


Sorry to sound so negative, but I just got back from a SET meeting
and those always seem to make me especially cynical.


-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5






From mail2.mihorse.com at idirect.com  Thu Nov 13 02:53:27 1997
From: mail2.mihorse.com at idirect.com (mail2.mihorse.com at idirect.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:53:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Prepaid phone cards and callback
Message-ID: <>


We thought that you should hear about this only if you make long distance phone calls.

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at    http://www.warsun.com





From mail2.mihorse.com at idirect.com  Thu Nov 13 02:53:27 1997
From: mail2.mihorse.com at idirect.com (mail2.mihorse.com at idirect.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:53:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Prepaid phone cards and callback
Message-ID: <>


We thought that you should hear about this only if you make long distance phone calls.

One of the leading phone card companies in the U.S. Warsun International Communications Corporation is offering the lowest International phone card rates.   Call from your home, office,  cellular,   or a pay phone by dialing a toll free number to any where in the world.   For more information please call customer service at 1800-4 warsun, or visit our web site

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at    http://www.warsun.com





From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 12 10:57:54 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:57:54 +0800
Subject: SET
In-Reply-To: <199711121751.JAA01757@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199711121845.NAA31064@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711121751.JAA01757 at slack.lne.com>, on 11/12/97 
   at 09:51 AM, Eric Murray <ericm at lne.com> said:

>[details: according to the spec the cardholder sends to the merchant
>thumbs (SHA1 hashes) of all the certs in the cardholder's cert cache.
>Since this will contain certs from merchants the cardholder has made
>purchases from in the past, a merchant could simply match up those
>merchant cert thumbs with cert thumbs he obtains from other merchants,
>allowing him to build a list of merchants the cardholder has attempted to
>make purchases from].


Sorry I haven't been keeping track of the SET but why would a merchant
need this info in the first place??? If anything one would think that this
would be client driven not server driven (ie the client queries the
merchant for the hash of his cert to see if the client already has a copy
or not). I am not quite sure what they are trying to accomplish by this
unless what you consider a "flaw" is realy a "feature by design"?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From sjacquet at musician.org  Thu Nov 13 03:06:23 1997
From: sjacquet at musician.org (=?iso-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_?= Jacquet)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:06:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971113113050.006bd510@193.248.225.73>



Give a visit to my home page !!!!!
And let me know what you think !!!
==================================
St�phane Jacquet
sjacquet at musician.org
http://www.worldnet.net/~sjacquet/





From ericm at lne.com  Wed Nov 12 11:14:12 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:14:12 +0800
Subject: SET
In-Reply-To: <199711121845.NAA31064@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711121902.LAA02041@slack.lne.com>



William H. Geiger III writes:
> In <199711121751.JAA01757 at slack.lne.com>, on 11/12/97
>    at 09:51 AM, Eric Murray <ericm at lne.com> said:
> 
> >[details: according to the spec the cardholder sends to the merchant
> >thumbs (SHA1 hashes) of all the certs in the cardholder's cert cache.
> >Since this will contain certs from merchants the cardholder has made
> >purchases from in the past, a merchant could simply match up those
> >merchant cert thumbs with cert thumbs he obtains from other merchants,
> >allowing him to build a list of merchants the cardholder has attempted to
> >make purchases from].
> 
> 
> Sorry I haven't been keeping track of the SET but why would a merchant
> need this info in the first place??? If anything one would think that this
> would be client driven not server driven (ie the client queries the
> merchant for the hash of his cert to see if the client already has a copy
> or not). I am not quite sure what they are trying to accomplish by this
> unless what you consider a "flaw" is realy a "feature by design"?


Sending them all from the client is bit more efficient-
this way the client sends one message with all its thumbs and
the merchant side sends back any certs that are required.

The other way, the merchant would send the thumbs for all
the required certs, then the client would send a list of thumbs
for certs it doesn't have, then the server would send those certs.

So this way there's one less round trip required.

Both methods are equally open to attack unless the list of thumbs is MAC'd.


-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5






From jeremey at bluemoney.com  Wed Nov 12 11:22:00 1997
From: jeremey at bluemoney.com (Jeremey Barrett)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:22:00 +0800
Subject: SET
In-Reply-To: <2325.879351741@tygar.trust.cs.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <199711121918.LAA20209@einstein.bluemoney.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga writes:
 > 
 > Personally, I'm becoming convinced that SET is practically Ptolmaic in it's
 > complexity. You can get money from point A to point B, but you have to go
 > through a lot of epicycles to get there.

Agreed, SET is overengineered hogwash.

 > 
 > Unfortunately, I think that no MIS manager will get fired for using SET, and
 > it'll take a serious demonstration of a security breach before people will
 > listen to anything else. At least until someone demonstrates a transaction
 > protocol which is, say 3 orders of magnitude cheaper...

Perhaps... OTOH, SET is SO bad that it will be impossible to deploy,
probably forcing everyone away from it anyway.

As far as a better protocol, it's already designed, implemented, and
running quite nicely in our software. :-)

Regards,
Jeremey.
- -- 
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64

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From loki at infonex.com  Wed Nov 12 11:26:56 1997
From: loki at infonex.com (Lance Cottrell)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:26:56 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:PGP's SMTP enforcer and ISPs
In-Reply-To: <199711072330.SAA01730@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b08fae4bf6f0@[206.170.114.18]>



SSH and a remote shell account can solve this problem. If they close port
22 it is time to change providers.

<shameless plug>
Cyberpass <http://www.cyberpass.net> provides anonymous shell accounts and SSH.
</shameless plug>

	-Lance

>Recently, my ISP became the victim of spammers.  Their response, like many
>other ISPs, is to block port 25 for all their dialup users.  This means
>that all outgoing email must be routed through their mail server.
>
>Now that PGP has an SMTP enforcers, and that others will eventually follow
>with a S/MIME equivalent, we are literally an executive order away from an
>effective (if not 100% complete) ban on "inappropriate" encryption on email
>communications.
>
>All it would take is a national emergency, like the next war against Saddam
>Hussein, or a law that does not treat ISPs like common carriers and holds
>them liable for what their users do.
>
>And the worst thing of all is that most people won't even notice it.  Hell,
>I was the only person on my end to notice that my ISP had blocked port 25.
>
>-- Phelix, "perfect paranoia is perfect awareness"
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>| The above message was sent from the Filtered Cypherpunks List, a free |
>| filtering service.  Direct any replies in regards to this message to  |
>| its author.  Archives available from  www.sundernet.com/fdigest.html  |
>-------> For help see http://www.sundernet.com/crypto.html <-------------


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki at infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 12 11:36:41 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:36:41 +0800
Subject: The Incredible Shrinking Tim, and e$lab
In-Reply-To: <34698507.19B5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v031107e4b08f9f22132a@[139.167.130.248]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



At 11:19 am -0500 on 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:

> There seems to be an unhealthy desire by some to "armchair psychoanalyze"
> the motivations and inner motivations of others. In recent days, me.

Guilty. Too much data. Too little pattern. Of course, the definition of
"unhealthy" is always relative, especially in a pseudoscience like
psychology.

> Detweiler used to rant for pages and pages about my state of mind and how
> my words were "torturing" him, and on and on. This was an unhealthy
> fixation on me, in my not so humble opinion.
>
> Now Hettinga seems to have again fallen into this state.

Yup, Tim. That's it.

Me. Detweiller.

Same people.

"Movies. Laundry. Same thing." as the MoviePhone commercial goes...


> Though he styles
> himself as an astute observer of human behavior, he fails utterly to
> persuade with his insults and whinings.

Well, I think you've got me beat on the insult front so far in *this* little
bit of repartee, Tim. As for whining, I suppose it's relative. I mean, when
all you can hear is mortar cuncussions, I bet *everything* sounds like
whining. If you can hear anything at all.

> Bob, get a life. Go do something useful. Make some real money.

Now, Tim. Are you *jealous* of my impecuniosity? I have to admit, I have
more fun than money these days, but things *are* getting interesting.

Fortunately, you seem to be making great strides to solve that problem you
have with our asset disparity... I guess chips on the sholder, mountaintop
fortresses, overwhelming firepower, and, someday, a team of defense lawyers
(if you live that long) are God's way of telling you that you have too many
assets and not enough people around you?

> Just stop whining about how I'm not sending you money to finance your
> "Geodesic Hothouse Enterprises," or whatever, startups.

Well, fortunately, e$lab's doing fine without such sage counsel. We're
spec'ing the first product, hopefully by the end of this week, and, we're
hoping to announce before, of course, FC98 in February.

And, actually, you were right, and we listened to you. We don't *need* that
much money to bootstrap these first few products (the technology of
peer-to-peer internet transactions with a 3 orders of magnitude cost
reduction goal seems to work quite nicely on the investment side of the
balance sheet, as well), so we might not need to go the "hothouse" route at
all. At the moment, e$lab looks more like a good old fashioned
investment/trading partnership than anything else. And, I'll admit that
your stinging rebuke on the subject a few weeks ago got me thinking about
what I was doing and how to do it better.

Also, I wasn't asking *you* for money at all. I was suggesting that you
might want to put your money where your mouth was, technology wise, which
is what more of us should be doing. Those of us with money, anyway. :-).
However, if you've been saving it up shoot it out with John Law, and, if you
survive, to bail yourself out and skip the country someday to continue the
revolution from Bolivia, I think I see the grand design, now. :-).

> And just stop
> whining about how we all ought to tone down our words and so not make Big
> Brother angry.

I've already answered this in a post which crossed with this one, so I'll
leave this little troll alone.

Of course, Tim, in turn, I wish you would stop "whining" about how the end
of the world is neigh. You're sounding positively millenialist, these days.

Or, now that I think about it, you sound a lot like I did in college when
the Russians invaded Afganistan and, horrors, Ronald Reagan looked like he
was going to be elected. I thought all the bombs were going to drop the day
Uncle Ronnie got the button. At that point, I had too much reputation
capital (not to mention hashish :-)) and not enough people around telling
me I was paranoid, if not just stone batshit. I had at least 20 people
working with me on various anti-war projects, all thinking the way I did.
RDF=13, Data=0.

Learned what "Liberal Until Graduation" meant, I did...

So, Tim, in that vein, are you an anarchist until after the firefight?

Fortunately, I made my mistakes at an age when I could afford them.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From Jim6 at jamesy.com  Thu Nov 13 04:28:56 1997
From: Jim6 at jamesy.com (OCS)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:28:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Smell This !!!!
Message-ID: <199711132595QAA39660@21.213.21>


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Just Print and fill out the following order form, and mail to the address above.

Name: ________________

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To be removed type "remove" in the subject box and reply.







From andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu  Wed Nov 12 12:34:39 1997
From: andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu (Andy Dustman)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:34:39 +0800
Subject: Databasix conspiracy theories
In-Reply-To: <199711121408.PAA07532@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971112144125.8435f-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>



On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Andy Dustman <andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > If you really want the post to have the From: address of your nym, send
> > the post with your nym and not with the remailer as the last hop. The
> > point of anonymous remailers is to be anonymous. If you want to use a
> > psuedonym, use a nymserver.
> 
> If I remember correctly, the documentation for at least one of the nymservers
> suggested that posting through a remailer and pasting in the return address
> would be quicker and impose less burden on the server than having to process
> each outgoing message through the server.

That's possible, and if true, it's probably in the documentation for
redneck. Personally, I would prefer to have the server handle those
messages, simply because there is a certain amount of "authentication",
i.e., you can be reasonably sure that that nym really sent the message and
wasn't forged.

> > Cracker does have a spam-bait mangler which is somewhat simpler than the
> > scheme Jeff used. In a nutshell, if there are an inordinately large number
> > of addresses (compared to other text), the addresses are mangled, i.e.,
> > president at whitehouse.gov becomes president <AT> whitehouse <DOT> gov.
> > Still human-readable but useless for address harvesters. No posts get
> > dropped or filtered out under this scheme, and no keywords or particular
> > addresses are looked for.
> 
> I'm not sure that even that is a wise precedent to set.  In itself it seems
> innocuous enough, but it could always lead to a demand, "Well, you already
> mangle e-mail addresses contained in the bodies of posts, so why not also
> alter the contents of posts in the following way..."

Well, I'm not real happy to have to do it. It was in response to a very
active spam-baiting campaign, apparently directed at the Databasix people,
and primarily consisted of lists of addresses with no (or very little)
other text. I doubt this methodology could realistically be applied to
anything else (or that I would consider doing it for anything else).

> Also, I hope that your mangler is smart enough to distinguish e-mail addresses
> from lists of Usenet message IDs, since a list of such references should be
> perfectly valid in the body of a post.

It's not.

> The problem with destroying machine readability of e-mail addresses is
> that many newsreaders will turn an e-mail address into a hot link where
> one could simply click on it to send e-mail.  If someone were to
> anonymously post a message in support of or in opposition to a certain
> piece of legislation, and include a list of the e-mail addresses of the
> Congress-critters on a certain committee considering that bill, such a
> scheme might defeat the purpose of the list.  IMO, anything that makes
> posting via a remailer less functional than doing so non-anonymously is
> ultimately detrimental to the cause of privacy. 

I agree with you in principle. I think in practice, though, not being able
do just click on the address to send mail (and then only in newsreaders
that support it) is not a huge loss of functionality, as the address is
still readable (by humans).

> BTW, is there any evidence to indicate that anyone is really harvesting e-mail
> addresses from the BODIES of Usenet posts?  Gary Burnore posts his flames quite
> widely, so it's quite likely that any bulk e-mailing lists he's on is the
> result of his (non-mangled) e-mail address being in the From: line of his own 
> posts.

I really don't know. I do know when the spam-baiting campaign started, the
spam-baiters would also use the remailers to contact the people
spam-baited to let them know they had been spam-baited so they would
complain to us. (There was another set of letters going around claiming to
be pro-remailer, but I was always skeptical that that was the true
intention.)

> Perhaps the ultimate reality check is whether someone is seeking to impose a
> standard on remailers that's stricter than the one imposed on the phone company
> or the postal service.  I can drop some coins in a pay phone and call anyone at
> any time.  The functionality of a public phone is not restricted merely because
> the users are not identified.  Similarly, I can drop a letter in a public mailbox
> without anyone verifying my identity.  No return address is required.  Or I can
> write in a return address and nobody will check whether it's "genuine" or
> "forged".  It would be ludicrous, for example, for someone who had received a
> couple of crank phone calls from payphones to demand that the phone company
> either totally prevent this abuse from ever happening again or else remove all of 
> its pay phones!  And yet those are exactly the demands that anti-privacy zealots 
> have made on remailers, and often they've succeeded.

Well, I agree, and I don't do anything to messages that are mailed from
person-to-person (except drop exact duplicates). The only anti-abuse stuff
I have works on USENET posts, so it's not quite analogous to the phone
company or postal service. (I use that analogy all the time when people
complain about messages they receive.)

> Should one's willingness to broadcast his/her name and e-mail address 
> indiscriminately to a WORLDWIDE newsgroup be a prerequisite for one to express
> one's views?  Is that not tantamount to saying that one cannot walk down the
> street without wearing a badge containing his name, address, and phone number for
> all to read?  Or should one's name and e-mail address be considered his property
> to be divulged only if and when he chooses?

And I agree with you here too. I guess I'd have to or I wouldn't be
running a remailer.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 12 12:48:09 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:48:09 +0800
Subject: See brother Ralph, bash billg for free.
Message-ID: <v031107ebb08fbfcdb559@[139.167.130.248]>



See Washington before it burns...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:35:24 -0500 (EST)
Reply-To: love at cptech.org
Originator: info-policy-notes at essential.org
Sender: info-policy-notes at essential.org
Precedence: bulk
From: James Love <love at cptech.org>
To: Multiple recipients of list <info-policy-notes at essential.org>
Subject: Microsoft Conference Scholarship Info
MIME-Version: 1.0

I have mentioned this a few times before, but apparently some are not
aware. People who want to attend the Essential Information Conference on
Microsoft, and who do not have funding for the conference fee, can
easily receive a scholarship by sending a note to Donna Colvin, who can
be reached at dcolvin at essential.org (fax 202.234.5176).  This is
available to anyone, including people who work in industry or
government.

Conference info is on the web at http://www.appraising-microsoft.org

Jamie

--
James Packard Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
202.387.8030 | fax 202.234.5176
love at cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 12:57:43 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:57:43 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <CHBBHMJLLGHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 12:58:55 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:58:55 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <KGMAJKJBLIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:00:13 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:00:13 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <GPMCMGBBBIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:00:15 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:00:15 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <EMNHOBDFBIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:00:17 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:00:17 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <BJMMGGKAIHHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:00:17 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:00:17 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <EGKFFMCMMIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:00:54 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:00:54 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <IMKJHFJNMIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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http://www.mailexcite.com






From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:01:00 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:01:00 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <BNPFIFCIIIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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http://www.mailexcite.com






From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:01:12 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:01:12 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <FMAFADHJIIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:02:08 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:02:08 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <NKMNHAIEMHHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:02:15 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:02:15 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <GLMEBGLBNHHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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http://www.mailexcite.com






From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:02:49 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:02:49 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <ONIMILADBIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:03:09 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:03:09 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <NEIINCIODIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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http://www.mailexcite.com






From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:03:10 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:03:10 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <HFBLLPIAEIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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http://www.mailexcite.com






From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:03:23 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:03:23 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <NFPEFLGGKHHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:03:31 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:03:31 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <BBFKOGALKIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:03:57 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:03:57 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <HBNHHAFLJHHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From gnu at toad.com  Thu Nov 13 05:10:59 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:10:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Prof. Bernstein's appeal brief and two major Amicus briefs online
Message-ID: <199711131245.EAA09636@toad.com>


The EFF Bernstein Legal web page has been updated to contain:

    *	the appeal brief by Prof. Bernstein

    *	the Amicus ("friend of the court") brief by EPIC, ACLU, CDT, CPSR,
	Economic Strategy Institute, Free Congress R&E, Human Rights Watch,
	Independence Institute, ISC2, IMC, ISOC, NAM, Privacy International,
	USACM, Whit Diffie, Peter Neumann, and Ron Rivest

    *	the Amicus brief by NCSA, RSA, Maynard Anderson, Jim Bidzos,
	Mark Rasch, Gene Spafford, and Ross Stapleton-Gray.

  http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/Legal/

There are still three more amicus briefs filed with the court, which
are not yet on the Web.

The Government's reply is due on November 20; we'll provide page images
shortly thereafter.

The appeal hearing is on December 8 at 9AM at the Ninth Circuit Court
of Appeals, 95 Seventh Street, San Francisco.

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation






From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:14:43 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:14:43 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <KOPGMDGPAIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



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From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:17:03 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:17:03 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <LECLHAFDLIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From free.hookers at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 12 13:17:06 1997
From: free.hookers at mailexcite.com (Joe Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:17:06 +0800
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <LHCPEOLGBIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 12 13:27:52 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:27:52 +0800
Subject: Amad3us's Key
In-Reply-To: <199711112333.RAA02693@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971112131520.00709ff8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>Amad3us
>
>(As there seems to be some confusion about my public key block, here
>it is again with Version field and blank line; I surmise that the
>problem Bill Stewart encountered was that pgp5.0 can't handle armor
>without blank lines (or maybe without blank lines and Version))

Yes, that appears to be the problem.  The original key with
a Version: and blank line added works fine, so I've signed it.

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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=/iQo
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From make at money.net  Thu Nov 13 06:02:39 1997
From: make at money.net (make at money.net)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:02:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: An open invitation! *!
Message-ID: <050ee3455130db7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>


X-Info:Filtered Via The Remove List At http://www.antispam.org
X-Info:Sent Using A Free Copy Of The Zenith Bulk Emailer



                                            
 INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE...

- For easy reading, please maximize this window -



NOTE... *** For those of you that don't have access to a server that allows you to bulk e-mail, I can give you a special gift. I know a url where you can get several different FREE software packages which will extract e-mail addresses from the internet and create mailing lists for you!  I also have a list of FREE e-mail servers that allow you to send bulk mail!  All you have to do to get them is to include a note asking me for "THE FREE E-MAIL SERVERS" and BE SURE TO ENCLOSE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER FOR REPORT # 1 ***



I won't use up bandwidth with useless comments about this program, or testimonials from people you have never heard about before. We all know that multi-level-marketing is the wave of the future and that it is very easy to make a large amount of money in a very short time. I know, this is my second time using this program and I made well over $50,000 on my last attempt. 

Unfortunately, most people look at this type of program and toss it out, a very big mistake because they are also tossing out a chance to gain financial independance! 

This program contains all of the components necessary to make it a legal, multi-level-marketing program, a tangible product, a service, and a guarantee, so don't let someone fool you into thinking it's illegal, it's not!

Plain and simple english... This Program Works!  All it takes is a little of your time, a VERY small investment, and the will to succeed! Using the internet and e-mail, this program WILL make you a lot of money, and you can run through it again and again! 

*** For those of you that don't have access to a server that allows you to bulk e-mail, I can give you a special gift. I know a url where you can get FREE software which will extract e-mail addresses from the internet and create mailing lists for you!  I also have a list of FREE e-mail servers that allow you to send bulk mail!  All you have to do to get them is to include a note asking me for "THE FREE E-MAIL SERVERS" and BE SURE TO ENCLOSE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER FOR REPORT # 1 ***



INCOME POTENTIAL

This plan works on a Four-level or Tier MLM Program plan.  This example that follows is
quite conservative;  however, you need to be aware that the numbers will change
(probably upward) depending on the distribution amounts, the response rate of return, and
the failure factor.  The only numbers which are imperative for you to remember, and be
able to match or exceed, are the number of orders received at Levels 1 and 2 (15 orders
and 105, respectively).  You must receive at least 15 orders for Report # 1, and 105
orders for Report # 2 for MATHEMATICALLY GUARANTEED SUCCESS.

Here is a VERY CONSERVATIVE  example of how this works.  First, you and those
following will each distribute 5,000 MLM Invitations to Participate in the program (what
you are now reading).  Second, the response rate of orders (future participants) is usually
.003 (three in a thousand).  Third, of those who respond with an order, $10, and the
willingness to enter this program, 50% will for whatever reason not redistribute it.  This is
call the failure factor.  The real number for these failures is closer to 30%, but remember
you are being presented  a very conservative example.

So, you decide to give the program a TRY and enter at Level One and redistribute 5,000
new invitations which, at the return rate of .003 will provide you with 15 orders within 10
days to 2 weeks from future participants at $10 each, totaling $150 (instant return on your
investment).  Remember, we assumed 50% of the 15 new participants will fail to
redistribute, so only 7 will send out the next 5,000 invitations (35,000 total).

At Level Two, out of these 35,000 you should receive 105 (three in a thousand) orders
within an additional 2-4 weeks at $10 totaling $1,050, and 52 new participants (half of the
105) will each send out the next 5,000 invitations for a new total of 260,000 prospects. 
>From these you will receive 780 orders at Level Three, increasing your income by $7,800. 
Then 390 (half of the 780) people will each distribute another 5,000 proposals, which will
total 1,950,000 potential participants as you reach Level Four.  With the .003 response
rate there will be 5,850 new orders equaling $58,500 !  The total for all levels is $67,500. 
Not a bad return for sending out only 5,000 e-mail invitations.

INVESTMENT

The investment necessary to enter this program is $40 for the purchase of all 4 reports. 
This is a fixed cost of purchasing the four individual reports from preexisting Program
Members at $10 each.  Beyond this, the costs are variable depending on how you choose
to redistribute the Program and the cost of reproducing the reports.  Most certainly the
order response from Level One will cover all costs even for the very aggressive
participants.  This is a very nominal investment for such a wonderful return.  

All those people you know who brag about all their investments, their portfolios, etc.,
would just die if they knew what you now know - that you can turn $40 into $67,500 or
more in the NEXT FEW MONTHS!

LEGALITY

After careful study and legal consultations, there are 2 important points you should now
and follow which keep this program perfectly legal and in compliance with US Postal and
Lottery Laws.  First, a product is being ordered by you and sold by the receiver of your
order.  Second, you need to request that your name be placed on the mailing list from
whom you order so a service is also being performed.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 of
the US Postal and Lottery Laws specifically states " A product or service must be
exchanged for money received."

Also remember when you receive your orders you MUST fill them promptly, preferably
the same day, with the Report being sold to comply with the law, and also to aid the new
participants in future order procurement not just for themselves but also for you.

GUARANTEE FOR SUCCESS

The check points which GUARANTEE your SUCCESS and the optimal financial return
for all participant members are simply these:

	1.  You must receive at least 15 orders for Report # 1
	2.  You must receive at least 105 orders for Report #2

This is easy, but it's an absolute must !!!   No matter how many program invitations you
chose to redistribute, if you don't receive the necessary 15 or more orders for Report # 1,
keep sending more invitations until you receive the necessary 15 orders.  The more you
get, the more money you will make.  This also applies for the 105 orders for Report # 2.

Once you have received the necessary 105 or more orders for Report # 2, simply sit back,
take a deep breath and relax because you are going to receive orders in excess of $67,500. 
This is a MATHEMATICALLY PROVEN  guarantee.  Of those who have participated in
this program and reached the above minimum orders, all have reached or exceeded their
goal.  Just imagine what would happen if there was no failure factor, or if it were just
lower than the calculated 50% !

The question is, do you really want to have $67,500 in your bank in the next few months? 
I am sure you do, so are you willing to give the program a TRY?  You will never know if
it works if you don't TRY.......

Remember, if you want your ship to come in, you have to launch it first.  The hardest part
of this program is deciding to do it.  Once you have taken that step then you need to
decide how to get the 5,000 or more names with whom you want to share this program. 
There are many companies that will provide mailing lists with e-mail addresses.  You have
gotten lots of advertisements over e-mail offering bulk mail services....NOW MAKE
THEM WORK FOR YOU !!

***  WHAT TO DO  ***

"OK, I am of THREE IN A THOUSAND - I've decided this venture is worth $40.00. 
What do I do now?

STEP # 1  -  Purchase each of the four Reports by NAME and NUMBER, and request to
be put on the mailing list (both street and e-mail addresses and important) to each seller. 
Do this by ordering one of the four Reports from each of the four names listed here after. 
For each Report send $10 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
(Business size #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.

It is essential that you specify each Report ordered by name and number for each person
to insure that you will receive all four Reports properly.  You will need all 4 Reports
because you will be REPRODUCING AND RESELLING them.  Do not alter the names
or the sequence of the name list in any way other than by what the instructions say.  It is
important for you to receive same day service on your orders, and you must also must also
provide it to others when you receive orders.

STEP # 2  -  Put your name on the list prior to your distribution of the Program
Invitations.  In doing so it is imperative for everyone's success in this Program that you
follow these instructions exactly.  First, delete the person's name from Report # 4 position
as they will be on their way to the bank.  Second, move the name in the Report # 3
position into the open # 4 position.  Third, move the name from Report # 2 spot into the #
3 position.

Fourth, move the name from the Report # 1 position to the # 2 place.  Finally, place your
name and address into the Report # 1 position.  When doing this, make certain to type the
names and addresses accurately, and to not mix up the order of the names with each
Report other than as how you have just been instructed.





REPORT AND NAME LIST

REPORT # 1 - "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
Order from:  Rick Kowalski  617 Gateway Road, WPG., MB., Canada, R2K-2X8

REPORT # 2 - "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
Order from:  Sarah Glade 168 Harbison Ave. West, Winnipeg MB, Canada, R2L-0A4

REPORT # 3 - "INCREASING THE ODDS WITH MAILING LISTS"
Order from:   Department 2, LBK Marketing & Graphics, PO Box 351509, Jacksonville,
FL 32235-1509


REPORT # 4 - "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
Order from :  USI, 3400-L MacArthur Blvd., Santa Ana, CA  92704

REMEMBER!  Order each report by name and number, and to include with the $10 cash
a self-addressed, stamped envelope.

DISTRIBUTION

Having made the changes in the name list, save the new Program as a text file, using
"Notepad" in Windows in its own directory to be used with whatever mass mail program
you like.  Report # 3 will give you some of the best methods for distributing this Program. 
Be creative!  Who knows what your personal twist will produce!

FULFILLMENT

It is essential that the Reports you reproduce look like the originals - not copies of copies
of copies.  The more professional you keep your business the more so will those behind
you.  Always provide same day service.  It's sound business and the sooner your buyers
get started, the sooner you start counting your money.

IN A NUTSHELL

1.  Name your new MLM Company.  You can use you own name if you desire.

2.  Get a Post Office box if you can, as it is a preferred way of doing MLM.

3.  Edit the names on the Program.  Remember, your name goes into the Report # 1
     position.  The others move down one position with the fourth name being deleted.

4.  Copy and save this program as it has become yours to reproduce for distribution via
     any and all methods you choose.  Make certain it remains neat and legible.

5.  Decide on the number of Programs you intend to distribute.  The more invitations you
     send out, and the quicker you get them into the hands of other interested people, the
     more money you will make.

6.  Decide on your methods of distribution and obtain as many e-mail addresses as
     possible to send to until you receive the information regarding mailing list companies
     in Report # 3.

7.  Distribute the Program Invitations, and get ready to fill your orders.

8.  Reproduce or copy each of the four Reports so you are ready to send them out as soon
     as you receive your orders.  Remember, when you do, to keep them looking like
     originals and to always provide same day service.

9.  Follow the program instructions exactly, but be as creative and aggressive as you can.


THANK YOU for taking the time to read this.  Now print it out, RE-READ IT and
envision that new car, that vacation, that new house, or that quality education for your
kids!

Is it too good to be true?  No, but it is too good to let slip through your fingers.  Are you
one of THREE IN A THOUSAND?  Are you going to prove to yourself whether or not
you can make alot of money in a short period of time by working smart?  Are you willing
to TRY?  

It is your decision.  GOOD LUCK !

*** Important Message - Sent Using The Zenith Bulk Emailer ***
*** For Your FREE Copy Of This Program - http://209.27.224.16 ***







From declan at well.com  Wed Nov 12 14:12:03 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:12:03 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
Message-ID: <v03007802b08fd68a40bd@[168.161.105.216]>



Just when you thought the Internet was safe from government
censorship, Sen. Dan Coats has introduced a sequel to the
notorious Communications Decency Act.

The bill punishes commercial distributors of material
that's "harmful to minors" with six months in jail and a
$50,000 fine. Unlike the original CDA, it applies only to
web sites -- not to chatrooms, newsgroups, or email.

Like the original CDA, it's certain to be controversial.
Sen. Coats (R-Indiana), chief GOP sponsor of the original
CDA, said his bill takes into account the Supreme Court's
unanimous vote in June that struck down his first try. "I
have studied the opinion of the Court and come before my
colleagues today to introduce legislation that reflects the
parameters laid out by the Court's opinion," he said on the
Senate floor.
  (ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c105/s1482.is.txt)

Coats' brainchild is strikingly similar to (and in fact not
as broad as) an ill-fated version of the first CDA that
Rep. Rick White (R-Wash.) and the Center for Democracy and
Technology embraced as a "compromise" in December 1995.
Like Coats' bill, the White-CDT measure restricted material
that was "harmful to minors."
  (http://www.epic.org/cda/hyde_letter.html)

A Coats staffer said the measure requires adult
pornographers to place images behind a firewall. "If you're
involved in the commercial distribution of material that's
harmful to minors, you have to take the bad stuff and put
it on the other side of a credit card or PIN number," David
Crane said.

But the bill applies to more than just visual pornography.
Its definition of material that could hurt minors includes
any offensive sexual "communication" or "writing" without
redeeming value. It applies to text-only web pages -- or
bookstores that place sample chapters on the web.

Since it covers anyone who "through the World Wide Web is
engaged in the business of the commercial distribution of
material that is harmful to minors," it could apply to
Internet providers and online services as well.

The FCC and the Department of Justice would be required to
publish on their web sites "such information as is
necessary to inform the public of the meaning of the term
`material that is harmful to minors.'" Solveig Singleton, a
lawyer at the Cato Institute, says: "The Supreme Court
struggled for years to come up with a national defintion of
obscenity. They failed. Harmful to minors is
obscenity-lite. The FCC and Department of Justice won't
have any luck coming up with a definition of
obscenity-lite."

Not a problem, predicts former porn-prosecutor Bruce
Taylor, now the head of the National Law Center for
Children and Families. "This bill will ensure that the
hardcore pornographers don't get off the hook," he says.

Next step for Coats is to attract co-sponsors and to forward
his bill to the Senate Commerce committee. Some judges
criticized Congress for holding no hearings on the original
CDA; Coats isn't going to make that mistake again. "There
will be a concerted effort to build a substantial
legislative history," says David Crane.

This bill won't be the end of Congressional interest in
cyberporn. "You'll probably see other legislation come
forward. Introducing this is not abandoning our other
concerns," Crane says.

-Declan







From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Wed Nov 12 14:41:54 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:41:54 +0800
Subject: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
Message-ID: <0LL6AuqqDgC9fMsOqjghIw==@bureau42.ml.org>



On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, VME Encryption wrote:

> p.s. - I wonder if you know what's the source of all the bad rep we've got
> - nobody knows us and we never posted anything on your forum, so what the
> heck ?

Exactly. You have not posted the source code to your allegedly secure crypto
algorithm, so every serious cryptographer will laugh at you.  Without
independent verification, and lots of it, the only people who will consider
your product are lobotomized IT departments.  We've never heard of you
before; we don't even know who your developers are, so we can only assume
they haven't "done their homework."

In essence: you have now been branded as complete morons. The only way to
avoid having to leave the country is to make the complete source for your
crypto available on your website in the next   24 hours.  Noncompliance will
lead to your mysterious reciept of a suitcase, followed shortly by the
mysterious disappearance of a large portion of your city.

AlgorithmMonger






From jad at dsddhc.com  Wed Nov 12 15:04:09 1997
From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:04:09 +0800
Subject: SET
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971112165216.00990790@labg30>



At 11:18 AM 11/12/97 -0800, Jeremey Barrett you wrote:
>Robert Hettinga writes:
> > 
> > Unfortunately, I think that no MIS manager will get fired for using
SET, and
> > it'll take a serious demonstration of a security breach before people will
> > listen to anything else. At least until someone demonstrates a transaction
> > protocol which is, say 3 orders of magnitude cheaper...
>
>Perhaps... OTOH, SET is SO bad that it will be impossible to deploy,
>probably forcing everyone away from it anyway.

Having spent the last ten years at this retail outfit, I can assure you
that "impossible to deploy" != "won't be deployed".  If Mastercard tells us
that they will jack our rates by 0.5% for every transaction processed
without SET, then management will demand SET be rolled out.  Function be
damned, security be damned, as long as some bookkeeper somewhere is
satisfied that SET happens, then we avoid a huge rate increase.

If the security of SET is questioned in the trade rags, our management's
approach will be to assume that Mastercard will fix it in the future, but
roll it out now anyway.  OTOH, it's obvious (even to them) that SET
couldn't possibly be any *less* secure than current authorizing techniques.

*Sigh*.  Look for copyrighted swirly red/orange logos to appear on
retailer's doors' soon:  
    "SET(tm) Transaction Processing -- 
     It's safe to use your Mastercard here"

John, who will get dragged into implementing it.  Got any suggestions?
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad at dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad at pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+






From craffert at ml.com  Wed Nov 12 15:17:14 1997
From: craffert at ml.com (Colin Rafferty)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:17:14 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b08fd68a40bd@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <ocrk9edzpat.fsf@ml.com>



I have so many issues with this, I don't even know where to start.

ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c105/s1482.is.txt writes:

>   `(e)(1) Whoever in interstate or foreign commerce in or through
> the World Wide Web is engaged in the business of the commercial
> distribution of material that is harmful to minors shall restrict
> access to such material by persons under 17 years of age.

What is the World Wide Web?  The Bill doesn't even attempt to define
it.  Is Usenet a part of it?  Are FTP sites a part of it?

If I have a link to a "bad" site, am I bad?  How about if I have a
forwarding link?

Anyway, AltaVista is certainly part of the WWW.  It is in the business
of the commercial distribution of material.  It does Usenet queries,
some of which are certainly harmful to minors (according to Coats).

They go down.

>   `(7) For purposes of this subsection:
>       `(A) The term `material that is harmful to minors' means any
>     communication, picture, image, graphic image file, article,
>     recording, writing, or other matter of any kind that--

Note that "article" and "writing" are included.

>   (b) AVAILABILITY ON INTERNET OF DEFINITION OF MATERIAL THAT IS
> HARMFUL TO MINORS- The Attorney General, in the case of the 
> Internet web site of the Department of Justice, and the Federal
> Communications Commission, in the case of the Internet web site of
> the Commission, shall each post or otherwise make available on such
> web site such information as is necessary to inform the public of
> the meaning of the term `material that is harmful to minors' under
> section 223(e) of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended by
> subsection (a) of this section.

Is Coats saying that his definition of "harmful to minors" is too vague?
Why can't he define it correctly in the Bill itself?

>           `(i) taken as a whole and with respect to minors, appeals
>         to a prurient interest in nudity, sex, or excretion;
>           `(ii) depicts, describes, or represents, in a patently
>         offensive way with respect to what is suitable for minors,
>         an actual or simulated sexual act or sexual contact, actual
>         or simulated normal or perverted sexual acts, or a lewd
>         exhibition of the genitals; and
>           `(iii) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or
>         scientific value.

By the way, my signature contains an ascii art rendition of an adult
about to have sex with a child.  I believe that (i) it appeals to a
prurient interest in sex; (ii) it depicts, in a patently offensive way,
a simulated sexual act; and (iii) lacks any value whatsoever.

Now all I need to do is put it up on a web page on a for-profit company.

-- 
Colin                 0
                     ---
                0|-< \|
                      ^
                     / \






From dgo at dev.null  Wed Nov 12 15:19:32 1997
From: dgo at dev.null (Dalton Gang of One)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:19:32 +0800
Subject: Minor Language Note
In-Reply-To: <199711121323.HAA28678@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <346A0E05.A5C@dev.null>



The persona who is thinking of 'selling out' wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> >My main point was that James Dalton Bell has already spent nearly 7
> >months in jail, and has yet to even be sentenced.
 
> While it was not Tim's intention to make Jim look like a criminal, the
> use of a defendent's full name is often used to connote criminality.
> 
> Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, John Wayne Gacy, Richard Milhous
> Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton... there are many examples.
> 
> I propose we call Jim by the name he calls himself: Jim Bell.
> 
> Monty Cantsin

Actually, I prefer 'Chief CypherPunks SpokesPerson'.

James Dalton Bell
Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson
CypherPunks Gang of One - Dalton Chapter







From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Nov 12 15:19:45 1997
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:19:45 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <Declan McCullagh's message of "Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:01:57 -0500">
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971112150957.00e3fb40@dnai.com>



At 06:05 PM 11/12/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>
>By the way, my signature contains an ascii art rendition of an adult
>about to have sex with a child.  I believe that (i) it appeals to a
>prurient interest in sex; (ii) it depicts, in a patently offensive way,
>a simulated sexual act; and (iii) lacks any value whatsoever.
>
>Now all I need to do is put it up on a web page on a for-profit company.
>
More to the point, since Deja News will bring it up if you post to Usenet
with it, they become 'porn distributors'.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 12 15:19:50 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:19:50 +0800
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
Message-ID: <199711122311.AAA27165@basement.replay.com>



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika
> is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
> it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

Comet CypherPunk Bop-Shoo-Bop will be approaching close to earth
in late 1999 to drop off Jesus and pick up the CypherPunks.
We're meeting at Tim's place.
{Anyone who makes it to the pick-up site get's a T-shirt that says,
 "Darwin was right!"}

Do[n't]







From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Wed Nov 12 15:26:12 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:26:12 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971112150957.00e3fb40@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971112181339.18407A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>



Even more to the point, Colin's ASCII-art post to a mailing list will be
on the web:
  ftp://vorlon.mit.edu/pub/f-c/v02.n508

-Declan


On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Lizard wrote:

> At 06:05 PM 11/12/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
> >
> >By the way, my signature contains an ascii art rendition of an adult
> >about to have sex with a child.  I believe that (i) it appeals to a
> >prurient interest in sex; (ii) it depicts, in a patently offensive way,
> >a simulated sexual act; and (iii) lacks any value whatsoever.
> >
> >Now all I need to do is put it up on a web page on a for-profit company.
> >
> More to the point, since Deja News will bring it up if you post to Usenet
> with it, they become 'porn distributors'.
> 






From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov 12 15:30:03 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:30:03 +0800
Subject: Incoming!!!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971112125803.8435d-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <346A36AE.197E@dev.null>



::
Anon-To: whitehouse.gov

Andy Dustman wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote: 
> > At 10:05 AM 11/12/97 -0500, Andy Dustman wrote:
> > >FYI, here is the list of things blocked at cracker:
...
> > >Addresses: whitehouse.gov (ONLY address in .gov domain).

> > Anonymous political speech is one the most highly protected forms of
> > constitutional speech.  I think that whitehouse.gov should be unblocked.
 
> Well, I agree, and since it's your ass, it's done.

Dear Bad BillyC,
  Realizing that a plethora of death-threats were undoubtedly sent your
way through the Georgia Cracker remailer even before the ink on Andy's
computer screen had dried (only two of them were from me--I'm beginning 
to like you), I thought I would dash off a quick note to you, hopefully 
arriving before you send the National Park Janitors SWAT Team out to 
Bob  and Andy's cities of residence in order to raze them to the ground.

  Outwardly, I am a fool and a cynic, but inwardly, I am a fool and a
secret believer in Truth, Democracy and the American Way (TM).
(God, the Flag, Mom's Apple Pie, "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington"...)
  Although I am a member of a CryptoAnarchist non-organization which
requires all of its non-members to have "NUKE DC" tattooed on their
foreheads in invisible ink (paranoid enough , nonetheless. to make 
certain it is covered by our cleverly designed aluminum foil hats),
I still have a small ember of hope burning deep inside that perhaps
there is still someone within the belly of the Great Beast (that
consumes the souls of all elected officials) who remains capable of
reading the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and
the Constitution, and saying, "My God, what have we done!"

  The Anonymous Remailers are a public service provided by those who
believe that "_mostly_ free speech" =/= "free speech."
  The anonymous remailer operators are willing to risk abuse, loss
of ISP service, prosecution, and a host of other headaches in order
to provide a mechanism by which those who fear retribution for
speaking freely can raise their voice anonymously, just as our
country's founding fathers did.
  No matter how eloquent the speech of those who claim that words
spoken by free men must be stifled if they are 'dangerous' to the
goals of democracy, national security, etc., the fact remains that
if the citizens are not allowed full freedom of speech, then there
is no democracy to defend, and no nation worth securing.

  Nothing personal, but if you have your hand resting on the Big 
Red Button and still feel the need to call out the militia every
time someone tells you to "Beware the Ides of March.", then maybe
you ought to lift weights, or something, and see if you can't
raise your level of confidence in your physical security.
  Has no one in DC ever heard the phrase, "Sticks and stones will
break my bones...?" Never seen Kato, in "The Pink Panther?"
  Personally, I think that you should institute National Death
Threat Week, where everyone is encouraged to send death threats
in one form or another to their legislative representatives,
employers, workers, family, neighbors, et al. Why? Because I
don't believe that the first indication of a 'problem' should
be seeing the muzzle flash and, if one is lucky, hearing the
shot.

  The Founding Fathers did not write the Constitution 'off the 
cuff.' They did not fail to consider someone shouting "Fire!" in
a crowded theater. They were aware of the existence of words
such as "nigger" and "cocksucker." Yet they still wrote that
the right to free speech should not be abridged.
  Figure it out...

  What has democracy come to when quoting those who wrote our
country's defining documents has become a cause for being labeled 
a fanatic, radical terrorist/pedophile/drug-dealer (and a Horseman
To Be Named Later)?
  Why does it take me half a day to find copies of the Bill of
Rights, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence when
searching government web sites, but only a few minutes to find
by searching the sites of those declared by the government to
be guilty of uttering 'dangerous' free speech?

  I know that it can be just as thankless being President as it
can being an anonymous remailer operator, so you, above all,
should recognize that they are trying to keep the alligators off
their ass while still remembering to drain the swamp.
  I have no doubt that there are several hundred laws that you or
others could use to force the Georgia Cracker remailer operators
to block anonymous email to whitehouse.gov, but I hope that you
realize the value, in your position, of having at least one forum
where people can communicate with you at a level that goes beyond
ass kissing, fear of retribution, etc.

My final offering of wisdom: Have "NUKE DC!" tattooed on your forehead.
  I have no doubt that this would create a groundswell of popular
support for you that would result in the citizens storming Congress
to have you declared "President For Life." Then you could have some
*real* fun, without worrying about political fallout.
("Did I say 'inhale'? I meant 'exhale'! Hee...hee...")

Your pal,
TruthMonger
"It's not FUD until *I* say it's FUD!"






From joe7bananas at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 12 15:30:35 1997
From: joe7bananas at hotmail.com (Wu Tang)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:30:35 +0800
Subject: Info
Message-ID: <19971112231043.23737.qmail@hotmail.com>



Does anyone have comments, used, or know the strength of 
George Barwoods' Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem "Pegwit" at 
http://ds.dial.pipex.com/george.barwood/v8/pegwit.htm

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From declan at well.com  Wed Nov 12 15:53:09 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:53:09 +0800
Subject: See brother Ralph, bash billg for free.
In-Reply-To: <v031107ebb08fbfcdb559@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007810b08fed03896e@[168.161.105.216]>



Yep, I'm going to be there. Saint Ralph vs. Bill Gates. What fun. --Declan


At 15:20 -0500 11/12/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>See Washington before it burns...
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:35:24 -0500 (EST)
>Reply-To: love at cptech.org
>Originator: info-policy-notes at essential.org
>Sender: info-policy-notes at essential.org
>Precedence: bulk
>From: James Love <love at cptech.org>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <info-policy-notes at essential.org>
>Subject: Microsoft Conference Scholarship Info
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>I have mentioned this a few times before, but apparently some are not
>aware. People who want to attend the Essential Information Conference on
>Microsoft, and who do not have funding for the conference fee, can
>easily receive a scholarship by sending a note to Donna Colvin, who can
>be reached at dcolvin at essential.org (fax 202.234.5176).  This is
>available to anyone, including people who work in industry or
>government.
>
>Conference info is on the web at http://www.appraising-microsoft.org
>
>Jamie
>
>--
>James Packard Love
>Consumer Project on Technology
>P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
>202.387.8030 | fax 202.234.5176
>love at cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org
>
>--- end forwarded text
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>








From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 12 15:54:53 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:54:53 +0800
Subject: Minor Language Note
In-Reply-To: <199711121323.HAA28678@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b08fe06c4c97@[207.167.93.63]>




>> While it was not Tim's intention to make Jim look like a criminal, the
>> use of a defendent's full name is often used to connote criminality.
>>
>> Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, John Wayne Gacy, Richard Milhous
>> Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton... there are many examples.

George Washington Carver, James Fennimore Cooper, Richard Dean Anderson,
Clare Booth Luce, Robert Anton Wilson, Francis Scott Key, .....

Your point was what, Monty?

(Sometimes people have three names, sometimes two names, popularly used.
Criminality has little to do with it. For example, Richard Speck, Charles
Manson, John Walker, Aldrich Ames, Ted Kaczynski, Timothy McVeigh, Terry
Nichols.  Most of them presumably have middle names.)

Oh, and as to divining what Tim's "intention" was, this mindreading and
psychoanalysis shtick is getting old.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From anon at anon.efga.org  Wed Nov 12 15:57:14 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:57:14 +0800
Subject: John Brown
Message-ID: <ff0c08ce54aa4c02073a252924d8e659@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>> And so on. Throughout history there have been those who spoke their
>> mind.  And others who told them to cool it, to not anger the local
>> prince, to not rock the boat.
>
>No, Tim. Your analysis is too simple, here. My point is, all John
>Brown & Co. did was get shot up one afternoon in Harper's Ferry. They
>didn't help the cause of abolition one whit.

"Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook
Got Wrong" by James W. Loewen, pages 167 through 169:

  "After 1890 textbook authors inferred Brown's madness from
his plan, which admittedly was farfetched.  Never mind that John Brown
himself presciently told Frederick Douglass that the venture would
make a stunning impact even if it failed.  Nor that his twenty-odd
followers can hardly be considered crazed too.  Rather, we must
recognize that the insanity with which historians have charged John
Brown was never psychological.  It was ideological.  Brown's actions
made no sense to textbook writers between 1890 and about 1970.  To
make no sense is to be crazy.
  "Clearly, Brown's contemporaries did not consider him insane.
Brown's ideological influence in the month before his hanging, and
continuing after his death, was immense.  He moved the boundary of
acceptable thoughts and deeds regarding slavery.  Before Harpers
Ferry, to be an abolitionist was not quite acceptable, even in the
North.  Just talking about freeing slaves - advocating immediate
emancipation - was behavior at the outer limit of the ideological
continuum.  By engaging in armed action, including murder, John Brown
made mere verbal abolitionism seem much less radical.
  "After an initial shock wave of revulsion against Brown, in the
North as well as in the South, Americans were fascinated to hear what
he had to say.  In his 1859 trial John Brown captured the attention of
the nation like no other abolitionist or slaveowner before or since.
He knew it: `My whole life before had not afforded me one half the
opportunity to plead for the right.'  In his speech to the court on
November 2, just before the judge sentenced him to die, Brown argued,
`Had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, it would
have been all right.'  He referred to the Bible, which he saw in the
courtroom, `which teaches me that all things whatsoever I would that
men should do to me, I should do even so to them.  It teaches me
further, to remember them that are in bonds as bound with them.  I
endeavored to act up to that instruction.'  Brown went on to claim the
high moral ground: `I believe that to have interfered as I have done,
as I have always freely admitted I have done, in behalf of His
despised poor, I did no wrong but right.'  Although he objected that
his impending death penalty was unjust, he accepted it and pointed to
graver injustices.  `Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should
forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle
my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of
millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked,
cruel, and unjust enactments, I say, let it be done.'
  "Brown's willingness to go to the gallows for what he thought was
right had a moral force of its own.  `It seems as if no man had ever
died in America before, for in order to die you must first have
lived,' Henry David Thoreau observed in a eulogy in Boston.  `These
men, in teaching us how to die, have at the same time taught us how to
live.'  Thoreau went on to compare Brown with Jesus of Nazareth, who
had faced a similar death at the hands of the state.
  "During the rest of November, Brown provided the nation graceful
instruction in how to face death.  In Larchmont, New York, George
Templeton Strong wrote in his diary, `One's faith in anything is
terribly shaken by anybody who is ready to go to the gallows
condemning and denouncing it.'  Brown's letters to his family and
friends softened his image, showed his human side, and prompted an
outpouring of sympathy for his children and soon-to-be widow, if not
for Brown himself.  His letters to supporters and remarks to
journalists, widely circulated, formed a continuing indictment of
slavery.  We see his charisma in this letter from `a conservative
Christian' - so the author signed it - written to Brown in jail:
`While I cannot approve of all your acts, I stand in awe of your
position since your capture, and dare not oppose you lest I be found
fighting against God; for you speak as one having authority, and seem
to be strengthened from on high.'  When Virginia executed John Brown
on December 2, making him the first American since the founding of the
nation to be hanged as a traitor, church bells mourned in cities
throughout the North.  Louisa May Alcott, William Dean Howells, Herman
Melville, John Greenleaf Whittier, and Walt Whitman were among the
poets who responded to the event.  `The gaze of Europe is fixed at
this moment on America,' wrote Victor Hugo from France.  Hanging
Brown, Hugo predicted, `will open a latent fissure that will finally
split the Union asunder.  The punishment of John Brown may consolidate
slavery in Virginia, but it will certainly shatter the American
Democracy.  You preserve your shame but kill your glory.'
  "Brown remained controversial after his death.  Republican
congressmen kept their distance from his felonious acts.
Nevertheless, Southern slaveowners were appalled at the show of
Northern sympathy for Brown and resolved to maintain slavery by any
means necessary, including quitting the Union if they lost the next
election.  Brown's charisma in the North, meanwhile, was not spent but
only increased due to what many came to view as his martyrdom.  As the
war came, as thousands of Americans found themselves making the same
commitment to face death that John Brown had made, the force of his
example took on new relevance.  That's why soldiers marched into
battle singing `John Brown's Body'.  Two years later, church
congregations sang Julia Ward Howe's new words to the song: `As He
died to make men holy, let us die to make men free' - and the
identification of John Brown and Jesus Christ took another turn.  The
next year saw the 54th Massachusetts Colored Regiment parading through
Boston to the tune, en route to its heroic destiny with death in South
Carolina, while William Lloyd Garrison surveyed the cheering
bystanders from a balcony, his hand resting on a bust of John Brown.
In February 1865 another Massachusetts colored regiment marched to the
tune through the streets of Charleston, South Carolina."

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From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 12 16:01:43 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:01:43 +0800
Subject: See brother Ralph, bash billg for free.
In-Reply-To: <v031107ebb08fbfcdb559@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03110719b08ff1495783@[139.167.130.248]>



At 6:32 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> Yep, I'm going to be there. Saint Ralph vs. Bill Gates. What fun. --Declan

Say hi to the plaintiff bar for us.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From AJD013187 at aol.com  Thu Nov 13 08:02:10 1997
From: AJD013187 at aol.com (AJD013187 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:02:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 
Message-ID: <971113110046_1603009864@mrin58.mail.aol.com>



 
   The Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend are artificial intelligence 
programs for your IBM PC or compatible and also for MACINTOSH. You 
can watch them, talk to them, ask them questions, tell them secrets, and 
relate with them.  Watch them as you ask them to take off different clothes
and guide them through many different activities. Watch and participate in
the hottest sexual activities available on computer, including: several
sexual positions, using many unique toys, even bringing in multiple partners.
This is no doubt one of the most realistic, sexually stimulating computer
games available. They will remember your name, birthday, your likes and your
dislikes. Every time you start the program, they say different things, and
act differently. Each time, they have a different personality. With the VGA
digital graphics, The Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend software have
some of the hottest, sexiest graphics out there.  And with a Soundblaster or
compatible card, you can actually hear their voice as they talk to you. This
is the first adult software title that was designed for both heterosexual and
homosexual people. I would like you to try the actual full copy out before it
is put on the market.  It will be sold for 1/5 of the actual price ($10.00)
until I can get back some information on what people think of the program.  
Please give it a try and write back any comments.      Thank you.

    If you are interested and would like to order a copy, then you can read
the mailing instructions below.  It comes in an unmarked package and is sent
out at most 4 days after the order is received. You are not put on any
mailing lists whatsoever, guaranteed. It will run on any 386, 486 or higher, 
and 100% IBM compatibles.  Required is VGA graphics, and a hard drive.  
The sound card is optional. Macintosh requires at least 4 meg of ram.  
Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend are artificial intelligence
programs, meaning they are completely interactive. It would be just like if
you were talking to someone.  You can actually have simple conversations.  
Their attitudes change with the different things you say, so you can say
things that will upset them, and then say things that will please them. The
more you play/talk with them, the more you learn what they can do, and what 
they like to do. It really is a blast.  With all these movies coming out
about virtual reality, it's amazing to actually have a virtual reality
program like this for your own computer. It's easy to install, and
instructions are easy
to follow.     

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Special Software Offer~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is to inform you about the new adult game that VCS Magazine
rated "The best game of "97".  "The Search for Paradise is no doubt one 
of the greatest XXX adult games available".  The first games where it is
as much fun as it is a turn on!  Travel the world to every continent, every
country you can think of, and meet some of the most beautiful women in
existence.  These women will treat you like a king and obey your every
command.  Any sexual wish you can think of, these women know it all.  
There is a different paradise for every guy out there, and this game will
have them all.  This game uses real models, digital video, and digital sound
to make it as realistic as possible.  You will feel like you're in the same
room
as the girl you're talking to!!!

          As an added bonus you'll receive "Club Celebrity X"
     Meet, talk to and even have your way with the celebrities of your
choice.
     Imagine being in a club with some very beautiful, well known, actual
     celebrities! You have seen these girls on T.V., Magazines and billboard
ads.
     Now they are on your computer begging for action.  This game is hot and
once you
     start playing, you won't be able to stop!!!

~Required: 386 or better, 4 meg ram or better, Windows 3.1 or higher (Win95
is fine), sound card is optional, Rom is optional.  (Game is given either
CD-rom or compressed 3.5" diskettes).~~$19.95!

                            Order now and get everything for just $24.95!!!!

     
At your request, the programs can come with a password protection utility
that only allows the program to run when the correct password is entered. 
                
                                   (You must be 18 or over to purchase)


Please fill out the following form and mail it to the address above.  
(Feel free to write out the order form by hand)

                        Questions?  Email us at: Virtualfriends4 at hotmail.com
            -    

           Send to:                    Mark Wrhel
                                         P.O. Box 0118
                                      Tujunga, Ca. 91043
       
                        
Your Name ___________________________________________ Date ____________

Address ______________________________________________________________

City ____________________________ State __________ Zip Code ______________

Phone#  _____________________ E-mail Address ___________________________

Do you have an IBM (   ) or MAC (   )?  CD rom (   ) or Disks (   )?

(   ) Virtual Girdfriend or (   ) Boyfriend for $10.00 (   ) *both just
$15.95

(   ) The Search for Paradise and Club Celebrity X for $19.95

(   ) Everything!!! The Search for Paradise, Club Celebrity X,
      Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend.  
       >>>>All for just $24.95<<<<
 







From jeremey at bluemoney.com  Wed Nov 12 16:03:39 1997
From: jeremey at bluemoney.com (Jeremey Barrett)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:03:39 +0800
Subject: SET
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971112165216.00990790@labg30>
Message-ID: <199711122359.PAA21389@einstein.bluemoney.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Deters writes:
 > At 11:18 AM 11/12/97 -0800, Jeremey Barrett you wrote:
 > >Perhaps... OTOH, SET is SO bad that it will be impossible to deploy,
 > >probably forcing everyone away from it anyway.
 > 
 > Having spent the last ten years at this retail outfit, I can assure you
 > that "impossible to deploy" != "won't be deployed".  If Mastercard tells us
 > that they will jack our rates by 0.5% for every transaction processed
 > without SET, then management will demand SET be rolled out.  Function be
 > damned, security be damned, as long as some bookkeeper somewhere is
 > satisfied that SET happens, then we avoid a huge rate increase.

I don't doubt that... but when they get zero orders because _noone_
has a SET wallet much less SET certs for their cards, that decision
will get re-evaluated pretty quickly (I would think). If the consumer 
has to get out of their chair to use SET, it's dead. And they have to 
do considerably more than that IMO.

The infrastructure required for SET to actually be used is outrageous,
especially for the consumer. All IMHO of course.

 > 
 > If the security of SET is questioned in the trade rags, our management's
 > approach will be to assume that Mastercard will fix it in the future, but
 > roll it out now anyway.  OTOH, it's obvious (even to them) that SET
 > couldn't possibly be any *less* secure than current authorizing techniques.
 > 

True enough...

Regards,
Jeremey.
- -- 
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64

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From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Nov 12 16:15:22 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:15:22 +0800
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
Message-ID: <19971113000002.17979.qmail@nym.alias.net>



>It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika
>is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
>it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

Lagrange 5 and Mars are good choices. The near side of the Earth moon
doesn't qualify and neither does Earth orbit since it's so easy to shoot you
down.






From declan at well.com  Wed Nov 12 16:27:09 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:27:09 +0800
Subject: In Burma, the Internet is access to democracy, from Newsday
Message-ID: <v03007814b08ff49c52c5@[168.161.105.216]>



A very nice piece in Newsday. My writeup of my visit to Burma a year ago is at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,475,00.html

Because of roadblocks, I had to hike across fields and through villages to
get to the site of the sole Burmese Net-connection at a local university.
It was set to become operational in spring 1997. I also heard of
unconfirmed reports that the military had a Net-connection through a
friendly nearby country, probably Singapore. (Perhaps to monitor
soc.culture.burma or somesuch.) BTW, the best mailing list on Burma news
I've found is burmanews-l at igc.apc.org.

I also hid my interview notes in the bottom of my bag. I made an extra copy
of the crucial ones and put the paper in my wallet, just in case.

-Declan

*************

Newsday (New York, NY)
November 12, 1997
LIFE IN CYBERSPACE / FOR MANY, THE INTERNET IS ACCESS TO DEMOCRACY

By Matthew McAllester

    RANGOON, Burma THE MAN LEANED across the table and spoke so quietly
that no one but the two of us could hear. His eyes moved from side to side,
scanning the restaurant and the street outside for possible informers or
military
intelligence agents. That's the way people communicate in Burma when
they're talking with a foreigner about something that could land them in
prison for several years.

   "You know what?" the man said. "I got e-mail."

   "You can't have," I said.

   For several reasons I knew he had to be telling me a tall story. For a
start, it's illegal to access the Internet in Burma. It's illegal to own an
unlicensed fax machine or modem. A few years ago a supporter of the largest
pro-democracy party in Burma died in prison, where he'd been sent because
he did not have a license for his fax machine.

   Besides, no one has e-mail or Internet access in Burma except for a
select few business owners who are friendly with the military regime that
rules the country. Diplomats at a few foreign embassies also acknowledge
that they have Net access and e-mail despite the Burmese government's
restrictions. Even then, they say their e-mail is intercepted and read by
the Burmese authorities.

   This is a country where reporters have to visit in the guise of
tourists, which is how I traveled in September and October. In Burma, all
international calls are listened to by the operator and, the Burmese people
assume, by military intelligence. When I wanted to make a call to the
United States, the receptionist at my hotel told me it would cost $35 for
five minutes if I wanted to dial direct. I opted for the storefront down
the road, where I sat for 30 minutes waiting for a connection. When I got
through to my friend, I was less than chatty about what I'd been up to.

   So how could the man I was talking to across the table possibly have
navigated these political and technological barriers to get e-mail?

   "No, I do. I got it," he said.

   The man smiled. He's a fixer. A small business owner. People come to him
for help. He's thinking of offering people access to his Net account - for
a price. Most of all, he looks out for himself, keeping on the right side
of the military authorities but not showing them the fear they are so used
to seeing in the faces of Burmese people.

   "I dial out anywhere I can," he said. "My account is in Australia, but
I'll use a server from anywhere. Anywhere."

   For the sake of communicating with the outside world, the man was
prepared to risk prison.

   I've written before about how a good number of governments around the
world restrict or ban Internet access to their citizens. Free-speech
advocates told me how some governments fear the spread of anti-government
information and opinions that dissent from the official line. The advocates
told me how democratizing the Internet is by its nature. But being told and
seeing with one's own eyes is a very different experience. After a couple
of weeks viewing how the military government's system of informers and
control of information contributed to its firm grip on power, I could
understand why it has banned the Net. The Net's speed and resistance to
control would be an unstoppable force in organizing opposition to the
military regime.

   "What would happen if you had Net access?" I asked another Burmese man,
who spoke in a whisper even when he was alone at home.

   "The government, it would be over," he said. "We could share information."

   Information and open communication in an oppressive state like Burma are
invaluable tools in fighting the status quo.

   I spent some time one evening in Rangoon with U Tin Oo, a former general
in the Burmese army and now a senior leader of the National League for
Democracy, the largest pro-democracy party. All told, he's spent nine years
in prison for his political activities.

   As we spoke, the phone often rang. Delegates to the party conference
that weekend were en route to Rangoon, and they called Tin Oo to discuss
the event. The conversations were superficial.

   "They tap my phone always," Tin Oo explained.

   When I left I had to take two taxis and walk among crowds in downtown
Rangoon to shake the military intelligence officials that a pro-democracy
contact had said would follow me.

   I worried about my own information, my notes. I longed to be able to
turn them into ones and zeroes and e-mail them home. Instead, I hid them at
the bottom of my backpack.

   A couple of weeks later I was in Thailand, interviewing Burmese
dissidents and refugees who have fled the Burmese government. Working with
them in the north of Thailand are several westerners who work as
human-rights campaigners, doctors and advocates for the refugees.

   E-mail is an important tool in their work, as it helps them coordinate
with people outside Thailand. One woman collects every story she can find
about Burma into the BurmaNet News e-mail newsletter. BurmaNet News is
delivered to the e-mail boxes of hundreds of journalists, activists and
government officials around the world. It's precisely the kind of
democratizing spread of information that the Burmese people are denied.

   But even in Thailand there are problems. The human-rights advocates and
health workers use encryption when communicating online. "They read all our
e-mail," said an Australian doctor, referring to the Thai authorities. The
Thai government maintains diplomatic relations with the Burmese government,
a pariah regime to many other democracies. "The other day I tried to get my
e-mail and my password had been changed."








From nobody at neva.org  Wed Nov 12 16:55:18 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:55:18 +0800
Subject: Selling a Persistent Identity
Message-ID: <199711130046.SAA02372@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Amad3us wrote:
>Try this Monty:
>
>The new owner of the Monty persona is defined to be the first public
>key which is signed by Monty's private key and posted to this forum.
>
>So the buyer sends Monty a public key, and Monty signs it and posts
>it to the list.  (Optionally via a trusted third party to ensure fair
>play.  There is a race condition in the making there but it's not too
>bad, we could fix it if we were bothered.)
>
>So Monty can cheat and post one he signed earlier selling to a
>different key, but we will ignore those because we base it on first
>posted.
>
>Buyers will no longer be interested in buying Monty's persona after
>they have seen it sold, because they know it is no longer his.
>
>The person who buys Monty's persona could resell it.  Using the same
>protocol.

This arrangement has analogs in the real world.  When a doctor sells
his practice, the patients are all notified.  But, I think there are
some True Name issues.  The doctor tends to assure the patients that
he has carefully selected the new doctor.  People know the doctor and
as a consequence tend to believe him.

This isn't really true of an anonymous persistent identity.  Let's say
it was doing a significant amount of business.  If you knew that its
ownership had changed, you might hesitate before doing a deal which
had a lot of fraud exposure.

On the other hand, the purchaser of the identity has an investment
which he may not want to endanger.  If the identity cost $1 million
and the outstanding deals only amounted to $100,000, fraud would be a
bad deal for the owner.

One reason why trading anonymous identities is a good idea is that it
baffles pursuit.  Every time you use one, information is revealed.
Even if you are doing things like transmitting 100K to the remailers
every hour, from time to time your net connection will go down, or
whatever, and increase the odds that The Enemy will have a more
accurate picture of your True Name.  (This works best if the
transaction is handled privately.)

But, if the persistent identity starts operating from someplace else,
it makes those attacks quite a bit more difficult, especially if there
is no public announcement regarding the change of ownership.

The transaction makes sense even if two identities of equal value are
traded.

(BTW, "Monty Cantsin" a.k.a. 0x5857856C436435C2D70FE503CA4E4190F766AD3
D16F9CFAA94105426C7DA7A1AEC488C0455AB4421C19B7D38F48DB7742112866EBB884
7570F61B072AFE5056A0339C4776128BB718C8C384D455031EDAAE94B07DE6C6211C83
FC06A844F1CF82240EC589C5C58DE2F699470A12802CCF14BEF0F45423E37879671DC4
E820A4416FDB6B6F2C5D5F694E5622F440ED1AF94A550A9D111749147945BA8D01AFB2
FE3EE908D9C54C639449ADF12CAF56D6CF29F414B23D8E74E9CFAE80D778F479E06326
075DDC599F8F50C8FC1685F9C98B702787C832DA6E7F63EB19658B1448BB5A97E3C564
4E5B75A66DD63977EE4B18EDF6D266AAD62349696B634A6447FF9 is not for sale.
After using one persistent identity for awhile, you become emotionally
attached to it!)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Wed Nov 12 16:57:33 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:57:33 +0800
Subject: Secure Hashing for Entropy
Message-ID: <199711130047.SAA02607@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jon Leonard wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>> Often we have a source of entropy whose output we use as the input to
>> a secure hash function.
>> 
>> Does it matter if the hashing function is secure?  I don't think so.
>> All that really matters is that the function hashes evenly so that any
>> input string is about as likely as any other input string to result in
>> a particular hash.  Even if the hash function is weak and collisions
>> can be found, if it is even the same level of entropy is still
>> available.
>> 
>> Have I got this right?
>
>In the case where:
>1) Your entropy source is as good as you think it is
>2) Your opponent knows nothing about the data from your entropy source
>and
>3) Your entropy mixes the way you expect it to.
>
>this is indeed the case.
>
>If you're not completely sure about the above, using a cryptographic
>hash requires your hypothetical opponent to be able to reverse the hash
>to exploit what they know, rather than simpler computations.
>
>Since it seems that paranoia pays off in the design of cryptographic
>software, I'd recommend always using a strong hash.

Let's say you are using the entropy to create a session key for a
symmetric cipher.  If The Enemy can guess the session key, you have
already lost the game.  It doesn't matter if the original
entropy-containing string can be guessed because the hash was weak.

If your entropy source is weak and the original string can be guessed,
then you've lost the game even if the hash function is strong.  The
Enemy knows how to compute hashes as well as you do.

But, I think I now see a way a secure hash can sort of help you.

Let's say you have an entropy source which gives you a base 3 number
of arbitrary length.  There is no even way to map base 3 numbers into
base 2 numbers.  Use of a hash function obscures the mapping.

For example, we want a random 8 bit number.  We can get this by
generating a 6 digit base 3 number, P, and computing P mod 2^8.

This has the unappealing property that it overlaps unevenly.

3^6 = 729 = 2 * 256 + 217.

There is an 89.3% chance that the resulting number will be between 0
and 216, inclusive.  The probability should be 84.7%.  This gives The
Enemy an edge if there are a number of messages to be broken.  The
cost to guarantee a break on a particular message is still the same.

The use of a secure hash means that we can hope that the nature of the
overlap cannot be determined.

The downside is that there are no secure hash functions whose
properties are completely understood.  All we know for sure is that
not much is really known to the public.

So, the secure hash function in your crypto system could be reducing
your effective entropy substantially if your entropic strings just
happen to hash down to a smaller subset of possible hashes than
expected.  The use of the secure hash function may obscure what is
happening from The Enemy.  All we know for sure is that it obscures it
from ourselves.

Ideally, we want to match our sources of entropy with the base of the
random number desired and eliminate the question.

In the field, the most widely available and reliable entropy generator
is a six sided die.  If we are using a cipher which takes a base 2
key, this is inconvenient.  You can only get one really good bit out
of each throw.

How hard would to be to construct a secure symmetric cipher which
accepted a base 6 key?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Wed Nov 12 16:57:55 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:57:55 +0800
Subject: FREE PSYCHOANLYSIS NIGHT ON THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!!!
Message-ID: <199711130047.SAA02591@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>There seems to be an unhealthy desire by some to "armchair
>psychoanalyze" the motivations and inner motivations of others. In
>recent days, me. (And in the past, too. This recent episode of
>moaning about "What makes Tim say the things he does? is not
>new...we've seen this script before.)

It's not too hard to figure out what is going on here.  I don't think
there is much question that Tim is the backbone of the list.  The
collective output of his critics has yet to reach even 10% of his
contribution.

Of course, writing interesting articles is hard work.  It's easier to
rain on the parade.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm


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From nobody at neva.org  Wed Nov 12 16:58:11 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:58:11 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711130046.SAA02417@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy
>about being next to soft targets these days, but I almost find myself
>agreeing with other people, people you would respect otherwise, who
>are saying that you're making yourself the greatest friend that Reno
>and Freeh ever had. A vertiable poster boy for statism if there ever
>was one. And so on.

As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
freedom itself."  Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are
lost."  We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become
poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which operated
in the 1790s from Philadelphia.  It made itself very unpopular with
Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country".  It
made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than
respectful, but astute, observations.

People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here.  If
they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
wouldn't have to be censored.

Even though the editors were attacked and beaten, imprisoned, and
charged with Federal crimes, they persevered.  It would not be
unreasonable to say that Jefferson owed his Presidency to their
efforts.  Indeed, it would not be too much to say that the
Constitution (which failed to protect them) might not have survived
without their efforts.

A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a
big difference.  This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever
malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power.  When you are asked to wear
a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.

Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection.
It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock
warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's
gone.  It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a
"heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting
the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov 12 17:41:48 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:41:48 +0800
Subject: Cancer Cure Foung! / Re: FTC, Canada, Mexico officials launch "health claim surf day"
In-Reply-To: <v0300780fb08941d117ed@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <346A475F.67F5@dev.null>



I have just discovered that shouting "Fuck the FTC!" at the top of
your lungs a half-dozen times cures cancer.
Look for the details soon, on my website.

http://truthmonger.dev

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> [From Nov 5 Natural Healthline. --Declan]
> 
> ******************************************
> FTC Launches North American Health Claim Surf Day
> ******************************************
> 
> by Michael Evers
> 
> The Federal Trade Commission recently joined with public health and
> consumer  protection and information agencies from the United States,
> Canada, and  Mexico to "surf" the Internet for potentially false or
> deceptive  advertising claims concerning treatments or cures for heart
> disease,  cancer, AIDS, diabetes, arthritis, and multiple sclerosis.
> 
> The FTC announced today that in just a few hours during the recently
> conducted North American Health Claim Surf Day, Internet surfers
> identified more than 400 World Wide Web sites and numerous Usenet
> newsgroups that contain promotions for products or services purporting
> to help cure, treat or prevent these six diseases.
> 
> The FTC said that it sent hundreds of Web sites and newsgroups e-mail
> messages pointing out that advertisers must have evidence to back up
> their claims. FTC staff will follow-up by revisiting the targeted sites
> in the coming weeks to determine if changes have been made. Suspected
> violators received an e-mail warning which said the following:
> 
> The Federal Trade Commission (FTC), its federal and state law
> enforcement  partners, and public health and consumer protection
> agencies from Mexico  and Canada are sending you (and hundreds of other
> Internet advertisers)  this message based upon a review of the promotion
> you disseminated through  the Internet.
> 
> The FTC and its partners have NOT determined whether your Internet
> promotion violates United States federal or state laws, Mexican law, or
> Canadian law. Nevertheless, we want to remind you that when you make
> health claims in promoting a product, service, or treatment, those
> claims  must be truthful and non-deceptive.
> 
> Deceptive Acts or Practices Are Unlawful under the FTC Act
> 
> In the United States, Section 5 of the FTC Act (15 U.S.C. � 45),
> prohibits  deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce. In
> addition, Section  12 of the Act (15 U.S.C. � 52) prohibits the
> dissemination of any false  advertisement to induce the purchase of any
> food, drugs, or devices.
> 
> An advertisement is misleading and deceptive if the advertiser makes an
> objective claim, either expressly or by implication, including through
> the  use of consumer testimonials, without a "reasonable basis" to
> support that  claim. As set out in the Commission's Advertising
> Substantiation Policy  Statement, advertisements that specify the level
> of substantiation that the  advertiser possesses (e.g., "tests prove" or
> "studies show") must be  supported by at least that level of evidence.
> If the advertisement does not  specify a particular type of
> substantiation, the Commission considers  several factors in determining
> the appropriate level of substantiation.  Typically, claims of the sort
> included on your Internet site must be  substantiated by competent and
> reliable scientific evidence. Competent and  reliable scientific
> evidence is defined as tests, analyses, research,  studies, or other
> evidence based on the expertise of professionals in the  relevant area,
> that has been conducted and evaluated in an objective manner  by persons
> qualified to do so, using procedures generally accepted in the
> profession to yield accurate and reliable results. Anecdotal evidence
> and  consumer testimonials are not considered competent and reliable
> scientific  evidence. You may want to review your advertisement in light
> of these  standards.
> 
> Possible Violations in Other Jurisdictions
> 
> Unfair or deceptive acts or practices are also unlawful under various
> state  statutes in the United States. The standards under these statutes
> may be  different from those of the FTC's. In addition, by placing an
> Internet site  on the World Wide Web, you may be subject to scrutiny in
> other countries  where you sell your products. You should be aware that
> many countries,  including Mexico and Canada, also have laws that
> generally require  advertisements to be truthful and non-deceptive.
> 
> "Hopeful and sometimes desperate consumers spend millions of dollars on
> unproven, deceptively marketed, and often useless 'miracle cures' and
> the  Internet should not become the newest medium for this age-old
> problem,"  said Jodie Bernstein, Director of the FTC's Bureau of
> Consumer Protection.  "In addition to wasting consumers' money, some
> products or treatments may  even cause them serious harm or endanger
> their lives. Even when the  advertised remedy is harmless, it can still
> have a detrimental effect if it  causes consumers to stop or slow the
> use of proven treatments."
> 
> In addition to today's effort to prevent health fraud, the FTC has
> recently  conducted several other Internet Surf Days focusing on
> different types of  fraud, including pyramid schemes and deceptive
> business opportunity offers.
> 
> North American Health Claim Surf Day participants included:
> 
> U.S. Food and Drug Administration  Health Canada  Competition Bureau of
> Industry Canada  Procuraduria Federal del Consumidor of Mexico  the
> Secretaria de Salud of Mexico  Centers for Disease Control and
> Prevention  Federal Communications Commission (Denver Office)  Attorney
> General of Connecticut  Attorney General of Illinois  Attorney General
> of Kentucky  Attorney General of Maryland  Attorney General of
> Massachusetts  Attorney General of Minnesota  Attorney General of
> Missouri  Attorney General of North Carolina  Attorney General of
> Pennsylvania  Attorney General of Tennessee  Attorney General of Texas
> Attorney General of Vermont  Attorney General of Virginia  Attorney
> General of Wisconsin  Arthritis Foundation  American Heart Association
> American Diabetes Association  Capital Area and Tristate AIDS Task
> Force  Better Business Bureau serving northwest Ohio and southeast
> Michigan.
> 
> For more information,
> 
> Federal Trade Commission Web site  http://www.ftc.gov
> 
> Tom Carter  FTC Dallas Regional Director  1999 Bryan Street, Suite 2150
> Dallas, Texas 75201  (214) 979-9350







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 12 17:41:57 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:41:57 +0800
Subject: John Brown
In-Reply-To: <ff0c08ce54aa4c02073a252924d8e659@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800b08ffa004f2a@[207.167.93.63]>



At 5:54 PM -0700 11/12/97, Anonymous wrote:

>lived,' Henry David Thoreau observed in a eulogy in Boston.  `These
...
>throughout the North.  Louisa May Alcott, William Dean Howells, Herman
>Melville, John Greenleaf Whittier, and Walt Whitman were among the
...
>congregations sang Julia Ward Howe's new words to the song: `As He
...
>Carolina, while William Lloyd Garrison surveyed the cheering


More examples of "three name criminals," eh Monty?

And John Brown, the one they hanged, only had two names....


(Not an important issue, but this meme that "most persons with three names
reported are criminals" is simply false.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From harka at nycmetro.com  Wed Nov 12 17:47:21 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:47:21 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--ju
Message-ID: <199711111646.KAA24552@zoom.bga.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:tcmay at got.net to Harka <=-

 In> As for Australia, your countrymen acted like sheep in giving
 In> up their guns. If they try that kind of shit here in this
 In> country, a *lot* of cops are going to get killed.

Hmm, I somewhat doubt that. After all, restricting guns more and
more has also been happening in the US for quite a while now and
overall resistance has been rather minimal.

While there may be a few, who'd actually take up guns "in the
defense of liberty" the gross majority of Americans seems just as
"sheepish" as people anywhere else. Too many hours of watching (the
good) "Cops" has left an imprint in many minds...

Granted, America does have a constitution establishing civil rights
for it's citizens, but America is also the country (among others)
of "But I have nothing to hide" and "If it just saves one child"...

 In> (Not necessarily by me, though I'll defend my property and my
 In> constitutional rights as best I can. But the militia and
 In> patriot and anti-New World Order movements are preparing for
 In> war.)

"Defending my property" is probably one of the more clear
situations, where it is fairly easy to make a judgement call, and I
support having the choice over necessary actions to take, if your
property gets forcefully invaded by whomever and your personal
freedom is being threatened.

But on a more general basis things tend to become more complicated,
IMHO. What if it's somebody else's liberty being taken? How many
people would then take up arms (see Waco, Ruby Ridge, Roby/Ill.
etc.)? It is much harder then to decide, if it's time for action or
not.

Especially because of pre-filtered information, that make it hard
to base such a decision on "available" facts. When Reuters reported
about the Shirley Allen Siege, in the first line they mentioned her
to be "mentally disturbed" (implying for many, that the
police-action was justified and correct in order "to save her").

People not immediately within the vicinity will have a hard time to
decide, if the media-information is correct and subsequently, if
"the war has now begun".
(In Shirley Allens case, her fellow neighbors _did_ protest the
police-action because they _knew better_, but people further away
had other information and thus no incentive to defend her in any
way.)

The same happened in Waco, Ruby Ridge etc.etc., even with Jim Bell
to a degree. Thus the .gov is able to pick us off one by one and I
doubt, that a lot of "cops are going to get killed" because of it.


It'd be rather interesting to devise a "Cypherpunks-911" system,
that immediately provides others all over the country/world with
necessary information, if something happens, and more importantly,
_what_ happens (before the media faithfully recites the
police-stories of "what happened")

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... "Use a Cipher - Be Free!"

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherp at decode.com  Wed Nov 12 17:51:51 1997
From: cypherp at decode.com (Dan Veeneman)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:51:51 +0800
Subject: SWAT: A Growth Industry
Message-ID: <wPi1Fe1w165w@decode.com>



US News & World Report 11/17/97
Everyone gets into the terrorism game

Too many SWAT teams spells confusion
BY DAVID E. KAPLAN

In 1995, Bill Clinton signed a presidential directive stating that the
nation has "no higher priority" than stopping terrorists who have
weapons of mass destruction.  Congress responded with new laws and
allocated more than a billion dollars in support.  The result has been
an extraordinary proliferation of counterterrorism programs, making this
one of the few areas of rapid growth in the federal budget.  But in the
rush to respond, say critics, government agencies have failed to
coordinate their efforts, and no one is even tracking how much taxpayer
money is being spent.

According to a September report by the General Accounting Office, more
than 40 federal agencies have roles in combating terrorism.  All of them
appear eager to gobble up the new funding.  Among the big winners is the
Pentagon, which is getting $52 million to train local officials to cope
with chemical, nuclear, and biological attacks.  Other agencies have set
up units inspired by NEST, the U.S. Department of Energy's Nuclear
Emergency Search Team, begun in the 1970s to thwart nuclear
extortionists.  The FBI has added DEST, its new Domestic Emergency
Support Team, and the State Department now runs FEST, the Foreign
Emergency Support Team.  The Public Health Service is busily planning
MMSTs, or Metropolitan Medical Strike Teams, for 100 cities.  And on
Energy Department drawing boards are plans for BEST, a Biological
Emergency Search Team, and CEST, its chemical counterpart.  (Critics
contend that the Energy Department lacks both expertise and a mandate to
deal with biological and chemical weapons, but that has not stopped it
from seeking funds.) And if an emergency is big enough, one can always
call in the Marines, who have formed their own $10 million Chemical
Biological Incident Response Force.

Among the biggest beneficiaries is the FBI, which has seen its
counterterrorism budget nearly triple to $243 million since 1994.
Bureau officials vow to "double the shoe leather" of agents working on
chemical and biological terrorism and are outfitting their elite Hostage
Rescue Team with $3.3 million worth of gas masks and protection suits.
The bureau also wants to build a multimillion-dollar Level 3 biolab, a
tightly sealed facility that would permit work with many of the world's
deadliest pathogens.  Some experts note that the Army and the Centers
for Disease Control and Prevention already have more than a dozen Level
3 labs; the bureau says it can best conduct forensic investigations in
its own facility.

The private sector is cashing in as well.  Contractors are arranging
much of the Pentagon's $52 million local training program, while
millions more are available for research and development.  "It's the
latest gravy train for consultants," says Larry Johnson, a terrorism
consultant.

Even the toughest critics acknowledge that many of the new programs are
needed.  For example, they agree that the training of local emergency
workers to deal with a chemical or biological attack is long overdue.
The problem, they say, is that the various programs have grown so
quickly that coordination and oversight have yet to catch up.  A
classified study this year for the CIA and Energy Department calls for a
national response program to deal with terrorism and weapons of mass
destruction, directed by the White House.  "The system is not well
organized at all," says former CIA head James Woolsey, one of the study
group's co-chairs.

One sign of the lack of oversight can be seen at the Office of
Management and Budget, the White House agency charged with managing the
federal budget.  An OMB guide lists over 600 areas of specialization by
the agency's staff, including entries for Micronesia and marine mammals.
Yet nowhere is there an analyst tracking the budget for
counterterrorism, a national security priority.  "It's not something we
have a hard number for," says an OMB analyst.

The rapid expansion of programs--likely to cost billions of dollars
overall--has left some observers dismayed.  "It was not our intent to
create this thing," says John Sopko, who as deputy chief counsel to Sen.
Sam Nunn played a key role in drafting legislation to respond to the new
terrorism.  "We did not want a massive entitlement program for
counterterrorism."


--
cypherp at decode.com (Dan Veeneman)
Cryptography, Security, Privacy BBS  +1 410 730 6734   Data/FAX






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 12 18:03:13 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:03:13 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
Message-ID: <v03102801b08ffcdcfb0f@[207.167.93.63]>




Several swirling themes here....

* More versions of the CDA...which the Supreme Court may let stand. (Cf. my
comments about "death by a thousand cuts" and the Constitution, which is
being "exceptioned" and "reinterpreted" into oblivion.)

* Crypto legislation is far from dead...it is just dormant right now.

* Game theoretically, Congress and the other bureaucrats win by expanding
the number and scope of laws. There is little constituency for lessening
the number and scope of laws, despite public opinion.

* Anti-militia rhetoric continues, with politicians saying militias must be
reigned in. (See misc.activism.militia for many examples.)

* The U.N. is trying to get the U.S. to "ban racism." Meaning, ban free
choice in whom one hires (already the case with Title 7 of the Civil Rights
Act, despite what this means for freedom of association). Meaning, place
even more limits on free speech. Meaning, pass laws against certain
organizations.

(If Paladin is upheld, expect more use of the civil law system to put
various clubs and organizations out of business.)

* And so it goes. More laws, more prisons, more pressure points on us all.

But the public is getting fed up. Here in my state of California we
decisively shot down the use of hiring quotas and admissions quotas based
on race. And the courts have upheld this. The free ride for unqualified
minorities and "people of color" is over, at least here in California. (And
a dozen or so other states are considering similar moves.)

Right-wing talk show hosts are more popular than ever.

Here's just the latest example, in the article below. The article makes
some good points.  Note especially the part about the murder of Donald
Scott, the guy murdered in his bedroom by BATFag agents.

No doubt Bob Hettinga thinks my mention of this case is dangerous, that
good little bunny rabbits don't make Big Brother angry. Well, I will say
what I said before: the BATF and LA County Sheriffs responsible and
involved in this case should be tried in a criminal court, should be
convicted (based on what I have seen), and they should then be sentenced to
die in the gas chamber at San Quentin. This is, after all, what they do to
gang bangers who shoot up liquor stores. Cops should face execution. In
this case, a mass execution of the dozen raiding officers would send a
strong message to other cops.)

Here's the item:


Hollywood Producer Says "Enough Is Enough!

                       AARON RUSSO IS MAD AS HELL


Aaron Russo, the Hollywood producer who produced The Rose with Bette
Midler and Trading Places with Eddie Murphy is now on a crusade to
wake up Americans to the wholesale assault on their liberties being
launched by governments at every level.

"America is becoming a totalitarian police state!" thunders Aaron
Russo as he paces back and forth across the stage of the colorful
"Mad As Hell" TV talk show set. He's not at all happy with the
sinister turn that America has taken in recent years and, like the
name of the new show, he is "Mad as Hell." But he's determined to do
something about it � and that is what "Mad As Hell" is all about.

A pilot for the show, including the above scene, is being
aggressively marketed to the networks and cable channels. Preview
showings of the show have drawn full houses in Las Vegas and Los
Angeles and Russo's angry outbreaks have provoked wild, enthusiastic
response wherever he goes. It appears that Russo isn't the only one
who's "Mad as Hell."

The theme of the first pilot, which was sent to ISIL staff for
evaluation, featured interviews and vignettes with Frances Plante
Scott; Brenda Grantland president of FEAR (Forfeiture Endangers
Americans' Rights), and Judy Osburn, herself a victim of civil
forfeiture and author of the book Spectre of Forfeiture.

Frances Plante Scott told of her chilling ordeal with Park Service
officials attempting to seize their ranch and of the SWAT team raid
in which her husband, Donald Scott, was shot to death by
trigger-happy police. Ventura and Los Angeles County Sheriffs, D.E.A.
and the Park Service were all vying to get a piece of the action and
seize the valuable property using trumped up marijuana charges (there
was no marijuana � as if it mattered). Following this event, Ms.
Scott's ranch house was burned in the Malibu firestorm and later was
subjected to punitive harassment by the IRS.

Colorado state Senator Charles Duke, also in the studio audience,
spoke about the 10th Amendment Sovereignty Resolution, a modern
version of Magna Carta designed to force a constitutional showdown
with the federal government. At this point in time 22 states have
emulated Duke by passing the resolution in their states. Duke,
incidentally, is scheduled as a speaker at the ISIL world conference
this August (see our conference web page).

The video ends with an eloquent statement on modern slavery by Rod
Taylor.

In mid-June, ISIL pres. Vince Miller, Exec. VP Jim Elwood, and Board
Member Jarret Wollstein had a meeting with Aaron Russo to discuss the
terrible dangers facing America today. We all agreed that a majority
of people have been kept almost completely in the dark regarding the
massive abuses of police power in this country.

I remembered the joke about how the govenment must think we are all
mushrooms because they seem to enjoy keeping us in the dark and
feeding us horseshit.

"How could they know," I exclaimed. "The national media is as
controlled as Pravda in the old Soviet Union."
Any real news is scrupulously excised from national news sources and
the waves of government propaganda are so pervasive that even some of
our own members believe the government line in spite of themselves
and think we have lost our marbles.

We agreed that there must be a vehicle for a wake-up-call � and
Russo's new program could be the ticket.

Russo also talked of establishing, with the assistance of ISIL, a
massive early-warning fax network to warn citizens of dangerous
legislation about to be passed. He has also created an action manual
with the phone and fax numbers of Members of Congress so that you will
know at whom to vent your wrath

With ISIL's world wide communications network � computer, fax, phone �
plus a network of correspondents we will be able to feed the data and
expose abuses of power before they get off the ground. A merchandise
line with caps, t-shirts with the blazing "Mad As Hell" logo is also
planned.

Stay tuned for more developments in fuure issues of the FNN.


FREEDOM NETWORK NEWS
International Society for Individual Liberty - The World's Foremost Liberty
Network

Editor: Vincent H. Miller * Assistant Editors: James R. Elwood * Tim Starr
* Anton Sherwood * Mark Valverde * June/July 1996







From rotenberg at epic.org  Wed Nov 12 18:33:06 1997
From: rotenberg at epic.org (Marc Rotenberg)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:33:06 +0800
Subject: FC: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
Message-ID: <v03007802b09014e0d7da@[168.161.105.216]>





Danny -

Since you have associated EPIC's position on the White
"compromise" with CDT's, I feel some obligation to
correct the record.

We did not, as you recall, support that bill which
included the harmful to minor standard because we
believed it was contrary to generally accepted First
Amendment standards.

CDT supported the White measure and went to great pains
to blame the members of the conference committee who
did not endorse it. (I'd be happy to dig out the
news reports on this point if there is any question).

The Court's opinion in Reno v. ACLU seems to support our
position. I do not think the White bill that you
supported would have survived a Constitutional
challenge.

I wish to make a second point also. You accused
Declan of mischaracterizing CDT's position on the
White legislation. I'm still not clear exactly what
he got wrong. But you have surely mischaracterized
Larry Lessig's position in suggesting that he
supports passage of new legislation.

The O'Connor opinion, which by the way is a concurrence
and not a dissent, relies on an article by Lessig in
which he observes that restrictions have been upheld
where procedures are established to segregate (zone)
adult content. Thus the so-called Ginsburg statute.

I read Larry's analysis and his subsequent commentary
more as a warning than a recommendation. Establish
such zones and content-based controls become
permissible. Thus O'Connor's opinion seems to suggest
that labels used to distinguish content based
not on traditional library classifications (history,
literature, etc) but on whether such information is
suitable for minors would make it easier to
permit regulation.

I am not particularly interested in a lengthy back
and forth on this topic. I do think it is important
to set the record straight on EPIC and CDTs views
on the White bill. We did not agree then. You
cannot change that now. I also think you should
think a little more carefully about whether the
rating systems you promote will make it easier
for a CDA II to survive a Constitutional challenge.

Regards,

Marc.


At 12:05 AM -0000 11/13/97, Daniel J. Weitzner wrote:
>Declan,
>
>It's kind of you to get the word out about this new Coats bill, but you
>have managed to seriously mischaracterize CDT's position on the White
>legislation of 1995.  We did not believe that Congress should have passed
>the White Compromise, and certaily never "embraced" it, as you write.
>Based on my initial reading of the Coats bill, we will certainly oppose it.
>
>The Coats bill, with it's emphasis on age verification as a means to
>"protect" kids and provide online publishers with liability limitation, is
>actually a direct result of Justice O'Connor's dissenting opinion in the
>CDA case and her desire to try to "zone" cyberspace.  Following Larry
>Lessig, she suggests that instead of relying on individually-controlled
>blocking and filtering software, it is better for the government to require
>that certain content be placed behind age verification firewalls.  Prof.
>Lessig prefers this zoning to what you have characterized as "censorware."
>I hope that you, as an opponent of user empowerment filtering tools like
>Larry, do not prefer this O'Connor/Lessig approach too?
>
>I can't remember whether you were actually around in 1995, either as
>journalist or activist, so let me remind you of what we and other civil
>liberties advocates like Marc Rotenberg of EPIC said.
>
>In the New York Times (12/2/95, p.A1)
>
>   "While it does embody much of the original Exon proposal, it does so in
>a way
>that tries to embody a constitutionally recognized standard," said Jerry
>Berman, director of the Center of Democracy and Technology, a nonprofit group
>that focuses on civil rights and technology issues.
>
>and Jerry went on to say:
>
>"I don't think we need any legislation at all."
>
>Marc seemed to take a similar position:
>
>"It is preferable to the Exon bill, but ultimately this issue will be
>resolved in the courts, which is where it should be resolved," said Marc
>Rotenberg....
>
>Both CDT and EPIC recognized that as a plain matter of constitional law,
>the "harmful to minor" standard is more broadly accepted by courts around
>the country, but that the legislation was still an unwise infringement on
>Internet speech.
>
>We still believe that.
>
>We can certainly have a discussion about the various legislative strategies
>employed during the final days of the CDA debate and House-Senate
>conference, but frankly I think there's more important work to do.
>
>I hope that future discussions on this list can focus on how to defeat
>misguided efforts like the Coats bill, instead of misleading
>characterization of the past.
>
>Finally, Declan, I would suggest that when you want to characterize CDT
>positions you talk to someone at CDT, or at least find some documentation
>of your assertions.  I know that you recognize you have an obligation as a
>journalist to check facts and sources with some care.  That sort of care
>would also help in discussions among activists.  I'm never exactly sure
>whether you think of yourself as a journalist or activist when writing to
>FC, but whichever it is, I hope you'll try to avoid this confusion in the
>future by talking to us.
>
>At 5:01 PM -0500 11/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Just when you thought the Internet was safe from government
>>censorship, Sen. Dan Coats has introduced a sequel to the
>>notorious Communications Decency Act.
>>
>>The bill punishes commercial distributors of material
>>that's "harmful to minors" with six months in jail and a
>>$50,000 fine. Unlike the original CDA, it applies only to
>>web sites -- not to chatrooms, newsgroups, or email.
>>
>>Like the original CDA, it's certain to be controversial.
>>Sen. Coats (R-Indiana), chief GOP sponsor of the original
>>CDA, said his bill takes into account the Supreme Court's
>>unanimous vote in June that struck down his first try. "I
>>have studied the opinion of the Court and come before my
>>colleagues today to introduce legislation that reflects the
>>parameters laid out by the Court's opinion," he said on the
>>Senate floor.
>>  (ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c105/s1482.is.txt)
>>
>>Coats' brainchild is strikingly similar to (and in fact not
>>as broad as) an ill-fated version of the first CDA that
>>Rep. Rick White (R-Wash.) and the Center for Democracy and
>>Technology embraced as a "compromise" in December 1995.
>>Like Coats' bill, the White-CDT measure restricted material
>>that was "harmful to minors."
>>  (http://www.epic.org/cda/hyde_letter.html)
>>
>>A Coats staffer said the measure requires adult
>>pornographers to place images behind a firewall. "If you're
>>involved in the commercial distribution of material that's
>>harmful to minors, you have to take the bad stuff and put
>>it on the other side of a credit card or PIN number," David
>>Crane said.
>>
>>But the bill applies to more than just visual pornography.
>>Its definition of material that could hurt minors includes
>>any offensive sexual "communication" or "writing" without
>>redeeming value. It applies to text-only web pages -- or
>>bookstores that place sample chapters on the web.
>>
>>Since it covers anyone who "through the World Wide Web is
>>engaged in the business of the commercial distribution of
>>material that is harmful to minors," it could apply to
>>Internet providers and online services as well.
>>
>>The FCC and the Department of Justice would be required to
>>publish on their web sites "such information as is
>>necessary to inform the public of the meaning of the term
>>`material that is harmful to minors.'" Solveig Singleton, a
>>lawyer at the Cato Institute, says: "The Supreme Court
>>struggled for years to come up with a national defintion of
>>obscenity. They failed. Harmful to minors is
>>obscenity-lite. The FCC and Department of Justice won't
>>have any luck coming up with a definition of
>>obscenity-lite."
>>
>>Not a problem, predicts former porn-prosecutor Bruce
>>Taylor, now the head of the National Law Center for
>>Children and Families. "This bill will ensure that the
>>hardcore pornographers don't get off the hook," he says.
>>
>>Next step for Coats is to attract co-sponsors and to forward
>>his bill to the Senate Commerce committee. Some judges
>>criticized Congress for holding no hearings on the original
>>CDA; Coats isn't going to make that mistake again. "There
>>will be a concerted effort to build a substantial
>>legislative history," says David Crane.
>>
>>This bill won't be the end of Congressional interest in
>>cyberporn. "You'll probably see other legislation come
>>forward. Introducing this is not abandoning our other
>>concerns," Crane says.
>>
>>-Declan
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
>>"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu.
>>More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>
>
>============================================================================
>* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
>            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
>
>				-------------
>
>Daniel J. Weitzner, Deputy Director                       <djw at cdt.org>
>Center for Democracy and Technology                       202.637.9800 (v)
>1634 Eye St., NW Suite 1100                               202-637.0968 (f)
>Washington, DC 20006                                      http://www.cdt.org/
>



==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg at epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================







From declan at well.com  Wed Nov 12 18:33:19 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:33:19 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
Message-ID: <v03007800b0900374bd99@[168.161.105.216]>



Danny,

Trying to deny that CDT supported the White harmful to minors "compromise"
is a sad attempt at history revisionism. As Marc Rotenberg said, "CDT
supported the White measure and went to great pains to blame the members of
the conference committee who did not endorse it."

Which is of course true. After the vote you lost on the harmful to minors
"compromise":

     -- Comm Daily reported: Jerry Berman, exec. dir. of Center for
	Democracy & Technology, which had tried to forge
	compromise on issue, said he had been betrayed "by
	liberal Democrats, who are supposed to be protectors of
	the Constitution.

     -- IISR reported: Jerry Berman, executive director of the
	Center for Democracy and Technology, called the [vote on
	the] White proposal "a significant defeat for civil liberties
	in cyberspace.

     -- EETimes reported: "The House came within an inch of
	getting it right," says Jerry Berman, Center for
	Democracy and Technology.

Either the world's population of journalists are in a vast clandestine
conspiracy to misrepresent your organization's position or ... CDT (gasp!)
did in fact embrace the HTM so-called compromise.

You must remember, after all, that CDT declined to sign a December 5, 1995
coalition letter that told Congress to "to reject *all* proposals to impose
new government censorship regulations on cyberspace." Why didn't you sign
it?  (http://www.epic.org/cda/hyde_letter.html)

Instead, as I recall, CDT was up on stage with the anti-porn advocates to
unveil the "compromise." (I admit my memory's fuzzy on this point. I'm sure
you'll clarify.)

Where was I then? When the news of the "compromise" broke in December 1995,
I was in Cambridge having brunch with Harvey Silverglate (who's now
defending the Au Pair case) and other local free-speech advocates. As I
wrote in a post to f-c at the time, all of us were astonished to see the
headline in the New York Times: "Civil liberties groups accept compromise."
Of course it was CDT that accepted it. ACLU said at the time here on f-c
that "no true civil liberties group" would ever agree to supporting that
kind of censorship.

Also, contrary to what you claim, I'm not an "opponent" of filtering
software. Parents have the right to use it with their children. I believe,
however, that public institutions must abide by the First Amendment when
installing it.

I'm glad you provided this opportunity to clarify these issues. Now perhaps
we can move on to discussing the Coats bill.

-Declan


On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Daniel J. Weitzner wrote:

> Declan,
>
> It's kind of you to get the word out about this new Coats bill, but you
> have managed to seriously mischaracterize CDT's position on the White
> legislation of 1995.  We did not believe that Congress should have passed
> the White Compromise, and certaily never "embraced" it, as you write.
> Based on my initial reading of the Coats bill, we will certainly oppose it.
>
> The Coats bill, with it's emphasis on age verification as a means to
> "protect" kids and provide online publishers with liability limitation, is
> actually a direct result of Justice O'Connor's dissenting opinion in the
> CDA case and her desire to try to "zone" cyberspace.  Following Larry
> Lessig, she suggests that instead of relying on individually-controlled
> blocking and filtering software, it is better for the government to require
> that certain content be placed behind age verification firewalls.  Prof.
> Lessig prefers this zoning to what you have characterized as "censorware."
> I hope that you, as an opponent of user empowerment filtering tools like
> Larry, do not prefer this O'Connor/Lessig approach too?
>
> I can't remember whether you were actually around in 1995, either as
> journalist or activist, so let me remind you of what we and other civil
> liberties advocates like Marc Rotenberg of EPIC said.
>
> In the New York Times (12/2/95, p.A1)
>
>    "While it does embody much of the original Exon proposal, it does so in
> a way
> that tries to embody a constitutionally recognized standard," said Jerry
> Berman, director of the Center of Democracy and Technology, a nonprofit group
> that focuses on civil rights and technology issues.
>
> and Jerry went on to say:
>
> "I don't think we need any legislation at all."
>
> Marc seemed to take a similar position:
>
> "It is preferable to the Exon bill, but ultimately this issue will be
> resolved in the courts, which is where it should be resolved," said Marc
> Rotenberg....
>
> Both CDT and EPIC recognized that as a plain matter of constitional law,
> the "harmful to minor" standard is more broadly accepted by courts around
> the country, but that the legislation was still an unwise infringement on
> Internet speech.
>
> We still believe that.
>
> We can certainly have a discussion about the various legislative strategies
> employed during the final days of the CDA debate and House-Senate
> conference, but frankly I think there's more important work to do.
>
> I hope that future discussions on this list can focus on how to defeat
> misguided efforts like the Coats bill, instead of misleading
> characterization of the past.
>
> Finally, Declan, I would suggest that when you want to characterize CDT
> positions you talk to someone at CDT, or at least find some documentation
> of your assertions.  I know that you recognize you have an obligation as a
> journalist to check facts and sources with some care.  That sort of care
> would also help in discussions among activists.  I'm never exactly sure
> whether you think of yourself as a journalist or activist when writing to
> FC, but whichever it is, I hope you'll try to avoid this confusion in the
> future by talking to us.







From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 12 18:33:30 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:33:30 +0800
Subject: about RC4
Message-ID: <19971113022149.19102.qmail@hotmail.com>



Is inhabit RC4 sourcecode same RC4 developed RSADSI perfectly ?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 12 18:35:00 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:35:00 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711130046.SAA02417@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b090052def34@[207.167.93.63]>



At 5:45 PM -0700 11/11/97, Monty Cantsin wrote:

>As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
>freedom itself."  Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are
>lost."  We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become
>poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

Just so. The notion that we have to tone down, moderate, and soften our
words so that the Authorities won't get angry at us is 90% of the problem
in America today. (And a problem in most other countries, where one finds
otherwise reasonable folks talking about the need to restrain habits like
chewing gum, practicing Scientology, and seeking birth control information.
Not to mention "voluntary mandatory" silence about the Holocaust.)

>Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
>does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
>hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
>credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

Thank you. And contrary to what Hettinga claimed in one of his posts, I did
not call for a judge to be killed. (Though, as I understand the law, that's
not in and of itself illegal.) What I said was that the judge(s) in the
Paladin case had committed a capital crime. Saying, for example, that OJ
committed a capital crime is not uncommon, so why should judges be exempt
from similar opinions?

What we are seeing with Hettinga's anguished armchair analysis of me and my
motivations is a lot of overly personal, even fixated, attention on me and
my life. He pretends to know my social life, pretends to understand why I
won't just tone down my comments and not rock the boat. Utter nonsense.

....
>People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here.  If
>they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
>wouldn't have to be censored.
...
>A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a
>big difference.  This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever
>malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power.  When you are asked to wear
>a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.
>
>Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection.
>It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock
>warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's
>gone.  It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a
>"heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting
>the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

I fully agree, and have not said I expect a full-scale assault on me, nor
have I said I would expect to win such a war. The context of my recent
comments about guns was the Gun Shows recently.

(I haven't seen Hettinga foaming at the mentions by certain other
Cypherpunks of the Cypherpunks Shooting Club (which I am too far away from
to attend, by the way). Nor did I see him remonstrate against the list
member who brought his AR-15 carbine to a Cypherpunks meeting and held it
up, like any good revolutionary holding up his Kalashnikov.)

It happens that a lot of totalitarian moves are happening at this time. My
"Mad as Hell" article lists a bunch of them. CDA clones, new crypto
legislation, Clinton banning importation of fully-compliant foreign
weapons, etc.

And the rumors are mounting about a series of possible raids around the
holidays this Thanksgiving Day. The FBI has acknowledge the fax sent out as
legitimate.

While militia members and Cypherpunks may not be able to withstand a full
out war for very long, the mere willingness to defend oneself can itself
act as a deterrent. This is basic game theory, basic strategy.

Scared bunny little rabbits who tone down their words so as not to make
their masters angry at them will not be any safer, ironically enough.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 12 18:52:43 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:52:43 +0800
Subject: INFO-RUSS: Action alert:  A. Nikitin (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711130247.UAA09669@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu Wed Nov 12 18:39:46 1997
Message-Id: <9711121841.AA10833 at smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:53:13 -0500
To: info-russ at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
From: Union of Councils <ucsj at ucsj.com>
Subject: INFO-RUSS: Action alert:  A. Nikitin

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This is INFO-RUSS broadcast (1200+ subscribers). Home page, information, 
and archives: http://psi.ece.jhu.edu/~kaplan/IRUSS/inforuss.html
To post, or to subscribe/unsubscribe, mail to info-russ at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
INFO-RUSS assumes no responsibility for the information/views of its users.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Sen. Bingaman and Rep. Skaggs Appeal to Colleagues to Urge Review of
Nikitin Case

UCSJ encourages human rights supporters to call their Senators and
Representatives and act on Nikitin's behalf

Below is a "Dear Colleague" letter from Congressman David Skaggs (D-CO) on
the case of Alexander Nikitin. Senator Jeff Bingaman (D-NM) is circulating
a similar letter in the Senate.

Please call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to sign these
crucial letters.  Maximum pressure and publicity is needed to help convince
the Russian authorities to drop this case.  It is essential that Nikitin's
rights are protected and that the Russian security apparatus not be
permitted to win this power struggle.

(For more on the Nikitin case, please email Jason Silberberg at
jsilb at ucsj.com.)

Union of Councils ucsj at ucsj.com


November 4, 1997

RUSSIAN ENVIRONMENTALIST CHARGED WITH TREASON
FOR WARNING OF NUCLEAR WASTE DISASTER

Dear Colleague,

I am writing to bring to your attention new developments in the case of
Alexander Nikitin, a case that has broad repercussions for the future of
democracy, free speech, and due process in Russia.  I ask you to join me in
sending the attached letter to Russian President Boris Yeltsin.

Alexander Nikitin, a Russian environmentalist who co-authored a report that
revealed a nuclear waste disaster in the making, has been charged with
treason by the Russian Federal Security Service (the former KGB), which
completed its investigation on September 19.  The Russian Procurator, Yuri
Skuratov, who was appointed by President Boris Yeltsin, will now have to
decide whether to move to trial in this case.

Nikitin co-authored a report published by the Norwegian environmental
group, Bellona, that revealed that unprotected nuclear waste is stored at
bases and shipyards near Murmansk, and that retired nuclear-powered
submarines docked in the Arctic Circle still contain highly radioactive
spent fuel.  Despite the fact that all the information used for the report
was taken from open sources, Nikitin was charged with having released state
secrets.

Nikitin had been charged with violating secret Defense Ministry decrees --
even though the Russian constitution prohibits such charges.  He has now
been charged with violating a Defense Ministry decree that was issued seven
months after Nikitin was arrested -- even though the Russian constitution
prohibits ex post facto prosecution.  Federal Security Services
investigators have changed their determination five times regarding the
choice of decrees on which to base their investigation.

This case is critical, not only for Russian environmental policy, but for
the future of Russian democracy.  It is disturbing if Russia is unable to
face up to these enormous environmental problems without prosecuting the
citizen that exposed them.  It raises questions about whether free speech
and the publication of reports critical of the government will be
permitted.  The grave issues of due process in the Nikitin case cause doubt
about whether Russia has truly put Soviet-style justice behind it.

Please join me in sending the attached letter to Russian President Boris
Yeltsin, asking him to seek a thorough review before any decision is made
to take this case to trial.  If you would like to cosign the letter, or if
you have further questions, please call Sue Hardesty of my staff at 52161.

Sincerely yours,
						    
David E. Skaggs



--------------------------------------------------------------------

His Excellency Boris Yeltsin
President of Russia
Moscow, Russian Federation

Dear Mr. President:

We are writing to bring to your attention the case of Alexander Nikitin. We
understand that the Federal Security Service has completed its
investigation, and the Procurator General must now decide whether to take
the case to trial.

We applaud the enormous strides Russia has taken since the end of the
Soviet era to establish a rule of law, and end the old Soviet-style
approach to criminal prosecution.  That is why we are very concerned that
this case, if pursued, would mark a serious setback for the rule of law in
Russia.

Alexander Nikitin co-authored a report published by Bellona, a Norwegian
environmental organization.  The report revealed that unprotected nuclear
waste is stored at bases and shipyards near Murmansk, and that retired
nuclear-powered submarines docked in the Arctic Circle still contain highly
radioactive spent fuel.  Despite the fact that all the information used for
the report was taken from open sources, Nikitin was charged with having
released state secrets.

Nikitin had been charged with espionage for violating secret Defense
Ministry decrees -- even though the Russian constitution prohibits such
charges.  He has now been charged with violating a Defense Ministry decree
that was issued seven months after he was arrested -- even though the
Russian constitution prohibits ex post facto prosecution.  Federal Security
Services investigators have changed their determination five times
regarding their choice of decrees on which to base their investigation.

It appears that the rule of law as embodied in the Russian constitution has
not been followed in this case.  We urge you to ask your government's
Procurator General to order a thorough review.  We believe that such an
unbiased review of the case would lead to a dismissal of the charges
against Alexander Nikitin, and ask that you take steps to see that such a
review is conducted.

We see this case as extremely significant.  Thank you for your
consideration of our views. 






From nobody at neva.org  Wed Nov 12 19:27:18 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:27:18 +0800
Subject: Minor Language Note
Message-ID: <199711130307.VAA17065@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>>> While it was not Tim's intention to make Jim look like a criminal,
>>> the use of a defendent's full name is often used to connote
>>> criminality.
>>>
>>> Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, John Wayne Gacy, Richard
>>> Milhous Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton... there are many
>>> examples.
>
>George Washington Carver, James Fennimore Cooper, Richard Dean
>Anderson, Clare Booth Luce, Robert Anton Wilson, Francis Scott Key,.....

We don't usually think of these people as defendants.

>(Sometimes people have three names, sometimes two names, popularly
>used.  Criminality has little to do with it. For example, Richard
>Speck, Charles Manson, John Walker, Aldrich Ames, Ted Kaczynski,
>Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols.  Most of them presumably have middle
>names.)

I did not say that the use of middle names was required for
defendants.

>Oh, and as to divining what Tim's "intention" was, this mindreading
>and psychoanalysis shtick is getting old.

My opening sentence was intended to be friendly.  It was supposed make
clear that it was not suggested that you thought Jim Bell was a
criminal.  Certainly that was obvious, but a little redundancy never
hurts.  It looks like the meaning didn't convey properly, so I'm sorry
if I seemed to be psychoanalyzing you.

It's generally considered courteous to call people by the name they
wish to be called.  Jim Bell seems to go by the name "Jim Bell".
(This would not hold if somebody makes an inappropriate request such
as asking to be addressed as "James Dalton Bell, Defender of the
Faith, God of Vengeance, and Lord of the Universe.")

Back to the original point, I believe that it's hard to find instances
in which two-named people are involuntarily converted to three-named
people when they are not charged with a crime.  Lee Oswald became "Lee
Harvey Oswald" after the Kennedy Assassination, for example.

I've also noticed that Wardens have a marked tendency to refer to
inmates on death row by their first name, even when speaking publicly.
As in, "Don's death was very upsetting as it was obviously very
painful."  (Paraphrased from a real example.)

I believe the wardens are expressing a few things with this name
choice.  One is that they have complete power over the inmate.
Teachers call children by their first names, and it seems to me that
there is an element of that here.  (Admittedly, this is a troubling
image.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From blancw at cnw.com  Wed Nov 12 20:02:54 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:02:54 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971112200122.006a8b1c@cnw.com>



Tim May wrote:

>Colorado state Senator Charles Duke, also in the studio audience,
>spoke about the 10th Amendment Sovereignty Resolution, a modern
>version of Magna Carta designed to force a constitutional showdown
>with the federal government. 

This sounds interesting!  This is what I had in mind, in that other thread
about "What Will Revolution Look Like"


>[...]A merchandise ine with caps, t-shirts with the blazing
>l "Mad As Hell" logo is also planned.

However, this is unfortunate.   Trinkets like these may bring in useful and
needed funds, but they take away from the seriousness of the effort, from
the respect the cause deserves.  They make the wearers look like weenies
playing a child's game, rather than serious individuals in their rights
minds with the concentration and commitment to do important work for the
purpose at hand.

(In a silly mood, I could see a gathering of such supporters in a large,
crowded courtroom, all wearing T-shirts saying, "It's *ShowTime* !!!" )


    ..
Blanc






From declan at well.com  Wed Nov 12 20:17:06 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:17:06 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0900374bd99@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03007805b0902b2616d6@[204.254.21.105]>



[Got a note from a longtime Hill observer on CDT and their "harmful to
minors" compromise. --Declan]

>I remember a press conference, or a briefing, on the Hill in which
>White, AOL, ISA, CDT, et. al. were promoting the measure very
>heavily.  Jerry spoke out strongly in favor of it.
>
>Memories in Washington are short, and distortions are the currency of
>the realm.








From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 12 20:26:38 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:26:38 +0800
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
In-Reply-To: <199711121431.PAA11022@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971112201252.032a1f74@popd.netcruiser>

At 03:31 PM 11/12/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika 
>is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
>it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

Vermont still allows anyone not convicted of a violent crime to carry a
concealed weapon, no permit required.  Oddly enough, it has one of the
lowest crime rates in the U.S.


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
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From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 12 20:28:36 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:28:36 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711120444.WAA02100@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971112200525.0329d46c@popd.netcruiser>

I think that Tim May (and formerly Jim Bell) serve a useful purpose--that
of the canary in the coal mine.  When Tim gets disappeared, the rest of us
should know to convert our weapons to full auto, pack up our ammo caches,
head for the wilderness, and wait for the sewage to hit the fan. ;) Of
course, you actually have a life, your mileage may vary.

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
-------------- next part --------------
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URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/19971113/73accece/attachment.obj>

From toads70 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 13 12:36:38 1997
From: toads70 at hotmail.com (toads70 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:36:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IMMEDIATE RELEASE:  El Nino market update
Message-ID: <>


<HTML><PRE>
Learn how to take advantage of the potential effects of El Nino on the agricultural commodities markets!!

El Nino is a weather system forecasted by the National Weather Service to cause weather changes that could affect global agricultural production over the next 9 to 10 months.  El Nino is associated with droughts in the Western Pacific and irregular temperatures and rainfall across North America, South America, Central America and Africa. 

Some weather experts say the 1997/1998 El Nino could be the worst one in 150 years.  The 1982-1983 El Nino was the strongest of the century, spreading drought, floods, and extreme weather conditions across vast stretches of the globe.  Total combined losses to property and agriculture from related weather catastrophes are estimated to have exceeded $10 billion.

If the 1997/1998 El Nino comes close to the effects of the 1982/1983 El Nino there could be many opportunities in the futures and options market.

The price moves of agricultural commodities for the 1982 / 1983 growing season were as follows:

Soybeans  10/82- $5.18/bushel  to  9/83- $9.60/bushel     +85.32%	$22,100 gain per contract
Corn            9/82- $2.12/bushel  to 8/83-  $3.76/bushel     +73.67%	$8,200  gain per contract
Wheat        10/82- $3.00/bushel  to  8/83-  $4.19/bushel     +39.66%	$5,950  gain per contract
Cocoa          7/82-  $1275/ton      to  7/83-  $2450/ton         +92.99%	$11,750 gain per contract
Sugar           9/82-  $5.85/cents/lb  to 5/83- $13.47cents/lb  +104.09%	$8534    gain per contract

Minimum Investment $6000---Please only serious inquiries.

Click Here To Receive Free Information Package






(DISCLAIMER)
Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.  You could lose part or all of your investment.  However, when purchasing options, your risk is predetermined to the amount returned to the client.  Options do not move dollar for dollar with the underlying futures contract until expiration date.  No implication is being made that any client has or will obtain such a profit.  This advertisement contains a mathematical example of leverage in the commodity futures






From toads70 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 13 12:36:38 1997
From: toads70 at hotmail.com (toads70 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:36:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IMMEDIATE RELEASE:  El Nino market update
Message-ID: <>


<HTML><PRE>
Learn how to take advantage of the potential effects of El Nino on the agricultural commodities markets!!

El Nino is a weather system forecasted by the National Weather Service to cause weather changes that could affect global agricultural production over the next 9 to 10 months.  El Nino is associated with droughts in the Western Pacific and irregular temperatures and rainfall across North America, South America, Central America and Africa. 

Some weather experts say the 1997/1998 El Nino could be the worst one in 150 years.  The 1982-1983 El Nino was the strongest of the century, spreading drought, floods, and extreme weather conditions across vast stretches of the globe.  Total combined losses to property and agriculture from related weather catastrophes are estimated to have exceeded $10 billion.

If the 1997/1998 El Nino comes close to the effects of the 1982/1983 El Nino there could be many opportunities in the futures and options market.

The price moves of agricultural commodities for the 1982 / 1983 growing season were as follows:

Soybeans  10/82- $5.18/bushel  to  9/83- $9.60/bushel     +85.32%	$22,100 gain per contract
Corn            9/82- $2.12/bushel  to 8/83-  $3.76/bushel     +73.67%	$8,200  gain per contract
Wheat        10/82- $3.00/bushel  to  8/83-  $4.19/bushel     +39.66%	$5,950  gain per contract
Cocoa          7/82-  $1275/ton      to  7/83-  $2450/ton         +92.99%	$11,750 gain per contract
Sugar           9/82-  $5.85/cents/lb  to 5/83- $13.47cents/lb  +104.09%	$8534    gain per contract

Minimum Investment $6000---Please only serious inquiries.

Click Here To Receive Free Information Package






(DISCLAIMER)
Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.  You could lose part or all of your investment.  However, when purchasing options, your risk is predetermined to the amount returned to the client.  Options do not move dollar for dollar with the underlying futures contract until expiration date.  No implication is being made that any client has or will obtain such a profit.  This advertisement contains a mathematical example of leverage in the commodity futures






From so at dev.null  Wed Nov 12 20:39:17 1997
From: so at dev.null (Shylock Ohms)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:39:17 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b090052def34@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <346A7FC4.5407@dev.null>



Tim May allegedly wrote:
> 
> What we are seeing with Hettinga's anguished armchair analysis of me and my
> motivations is a lot of overly personal, even fixated, attention on me and
> my life. He pretends to know my social life, pretends to understand why I
> won't just tone down my comments and not rock the boat. Utter nonsense.

  I have reason to believe that this post is not from Tim May, at all.
  My investigation into the matter suggests that it was written by a 
small man, around 4 feet tall, 85 pounds, with black hair, green eyes,
walks with a slight limp, has ketchup on his tie, and $3.24 in change
in his right pants pocket.
  If you check the headers of the message, you will find an anagram 
for, "Throw rocks at DC!"

  Does this sound like the Tim May that you all know?

Shylock Ohms






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Wed Nov 12 20:41:47 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:41:47 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971113001015.0e6f3a5e@pop.mindspring.com>



At 05:01 PM 11/12/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Just when you thought the Internet was safe from government
>censorship, Sen. Dan Coats has introduced a sequel to the
>notorious Communications Decency Act.

>The bill punishes commercial distributors of material
>that's "harmful to minors" with six months in jail and a
>$50,000 fine. Unlike the original CDA, it applies only to
>web sites -- not to chatrooms, newsgroups, or email.

        On the legal side this narrowing has a modest merit in that the
government has established (rightly or wrongly) the power to control
publishers. It is difficult to find a reference to a website that does not
make a reference to publishing. Thus it falls under a reasonable
interpretation of existing law and precident (and distinguished from, the
internet is a telephone as the frozen brains would have it.) 

        The critical problem is obvious, harmful to minors. Tooth decay is
harmful to minors, all product advertising that can be construed as
increasing the incidence of tooth decay is harmful to children. 

        It also brings up the German "I can trump your arguement and invent
a new one" excuse for banning Zundelsite, that it was "ethically
disorienting to children." If one presumes ethical disorientation is a harm
then one has to hold all forms of education that promote independent
thinking are harmful to children. It would therefore make huge numbers of
academic sites criminal including the Gutenberg Project for carrying
materials that resulted in the prosecution of Socrates for essentially the
same crime. 

        It is not a viable concept without a definition of harm to
children. Given current events, any mention of air bags is not merely
harmful to children but lethal to children. 

-=-=-
I have contacted the owner with a problem. It still sends to me but does
not receive. Until the mailing list problem is corrected I will try to
continue participation this way. Let me know if you have a problem with
this method. 






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 12 20:45:27 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:45:27 +0800
Subject: SWAT: A Growth Industry
Message-ID: <199711130433.FAA10917@basement.replay.com>



Dan Veeneman wrote:
> US News & World Report 11/17/97
> Everyone gets into the terrorism game
> BY DAVID E. KAPLAN
>
>Congress...allocated more than a billion dollars in support
...
> Even the toughest critics acknowledge that many of the new programs are
> needed.  For example, they agree that the training of local emergency
> workers to deal with a chemical or biological attack is long overdue.

  Are these guys with the same government that ignores the fact 
that the development of antibiotic-resistant *natural* diseases 
due to the greed of the medical and pharmaceutical industries may
well lead to more death and disaster than any terrorist threat?







From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov 12 20:47:48 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:47:48 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0900374bd99@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <346A7C1C.100@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote: 
> Danny,
> Trying to deny that CDT supported the White harmful to minors "compromise"
> is a sad attempt at history revisionism. As Marc Rotenberg said, "CDT
> supported the White measure and went to great pains to blame the members of
> the conference committee who did not endorse it."

  Do people actually listen to the CDT and give them money, or do they
just give them money?
  Every time I have read one of the CDT's releases, I have to shake my
head and read it again in order to make certain it not is some kind of
spoof by a semi-retarded government spook. The releases are ofen not
even consistent within themselves, let alone when compared to their
other press releases and the claims of their employees in emails.
  I keep reading variations of "We're fighting for peace, and fucking
for virginity!" or some such nonsensical crap.

  Invariably, after the dust has settled, and the CDT embarks on some
new campaign, I look at their new releases, or the email of their
employees, and I see them claiming all kinds of things which I remember
as being the complete opposite of their claim.
  The last two times this happened, I checked the archives myself, but
this time I am going to just take the word of the other hundred people
who post to say that the CDT is full of lying, fraudulent fucks.

  Is it really that easy to make bucks in the 'Defenders of Freedom'
marketplace? Maybe I need to start an organization to save the rest
of you poor, pathetic creatures on the list from [Your Cause Here].
  What are the high-dollar buzzwords, these days? Liberal, Democracy,
Freedom? How about 'Free-Dumb' to get a little cash coming in from
slow Republicans, too?

  What is *really* scary is the thought that the people who give money
to the CDT probably vote, too.

TruthMonger







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 12 20:50:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:50:46 +0800
Subject: Think Locally...Act Globally / Re: FTC, Canada, Mexico officials launch "health claim surf day"
Message-ID: <199711130433.FAA10952@basement.replay.com>



> > ******************************************
> > FTC Launches North American Health Claim Surf Day
> > ******************************************
> > by Michael Evers
...
> > The Federal Trade Commission (FTC), its federal and state law
> > enforcement  partners, and public health and consumer protection
> > agencies from Mexico  and Canada are sending you (and hundreds of other
> > Internet advertisers)  this message based upon a review of the promotion
> > you disseminated through  the Internet.

  How about if you are selling something on your web site and giving
pointers to information/advertisements located on a foreign website?
  Let me guess...hhmmm...disabled grandmothers who are selling their
home-grown chamoemille tea will have their homes confiscated, and
corporations with expensive lawyers will be approved for an exemption
on some flimsy grounds.

  Anybody know of any Mexican laws I can break by putting something
illegal there, but legal in Canada, on my web site?
  Any CypherSpics who would like to put up a "Canadian Hate" page
that I could link to?

CyhperCanuck







From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 12 20:50:57 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:50:57 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711130452.WAA10417@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:02:38 -0800
> From: Blanc <blancw at cnw.com>
> Subject: Re: Mad as Hell

> Tim May wrote:
> 
> >Colorado state Senator Charles Duke, also in the studio audience,
> >spoke about the 10th Amendment Sovereignty Resolution, a modern
> >version of Magna Carta designed to force a constitutional showdown
> >with the federal government. 
> 
> This sounds interesting!  This is what I had in mind, in that other thread
> about "What Will Revolution Look Like"
> 
> >[...]A merchandise ine with caps, t-shirts with the blazing
> >l "Mad As Hell" logo is also planned.
> 
> However, this is unfortunate.   Trinkets like these may bring in useful and
> needed funds, but they take away from the seriousness of the effort, from
> the respect the cause deserves.  They make the wearers look like weenies
> playing a child's game, rather than serious individuals in their rights
> minds with the concentration and commitment to do important work for the
> purpose at hand.
> 
> (In a silly mood, I could see a gathering of such supporters in a large,
> crowded courtroom, all wearing T-shirts saying, "It's *ShowTime* !!!" )

A reasonable motto should be something like:

10th?

I'm all for a political faction, they really don't have to be as organized
as the Big Two & Little Third would like you to believe. Perhaps the
concepts of multiple political parties with their own popularist views has
become truly effective because of the impact of technology in particularly
on concept expression, and communications.

What needs to happen is a small group of suitably inspired whiz kids need to
get together and form a complete plan for creating legal cases to decide the
respective aspects of the 10th.

 
				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 


In some manner the question of whether the first sentence is an implicit
limitation of *all* laws and regulations at the federal level needs to be
tested. In other words, each and every law *must* trace its existance to a
specific set of sentences in the Constitution. If it could be found to be so
then each and every law and regulation at the federal would have to pass
constitutional review at every stage of its existance within the federal
government. Then a case needs to found of some situation say the founding of
a church based on smoking marijuana was a illegal entity under the 1st where
it is found that such organizations were illegal (rather trivial I suspect).
At this point the wording of the 1st becomes *much* more specific.

 
				ARTICLE I. 
 
	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
 

Under this light it becomes glaringly clear that not only is Congress not
allowed to even discuss legislation respecting claims of religion. Per the
10th that would fall to the individual states to resolve under their
individual constitutions. This would force many of the major social issues
onto a regional basis where they could be dealt with in a plurality of ways.
Issues regarding infringement of private ownership of weapons becomes
glaringly clear in that light. It simply isn't a federal issue. Per the 10th
it must be dealt with at the state level. Other issues such as no searches
except under warrant issued with probable causes automaticaly prohibits
various sorts of searches including samples of body tissue. The issue of the
use of federal military troops for any sorts of operations except those
respecting the operations of the defence of the US would be clearly decided.
Such silliness as the Supreme Court finding that teachers have the
Constitutional right to search kids because of supposed criminal wrong doing
is clearly shown for what it is, an violation of an individuals civil
rights. Warrants can only be issues on probably cause. Under these sorts of
conditions the various consensual crimes our government now routinely
practices would end. This is vary scary to the status quo crowd. And here
lies the rub, the initial 10th test cast must be irrefusable concerning the
10th. The question then becomes, "What is the issue?". What law or aspect
thereof is found so compelling that the Supreme Court *must* accept the case
for ruling *and* must find in favor of Constitutional review. For maximum
impact somebodies life must hang in the balance in such a manner that some
fundamental question of legal lineage is brought forth. This reduces the
issue to its most fundamental, "Is the right of the state more important
than the life of the individual?"

Why some lawyer has not used this basic question in the numerous murder
trials is truly amazing. If he wins a legal precidence is set. If he looses
and gets to appeal. Then walk that appeals train right up to the fundamental
question of the 10th. Forcing the Supreme Court to either reject, stating
clearly their answer in favor of the majority, or else to review and find
that laws must pass Constitutional muster. Either way the question gets
answered.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 12 21:14:49 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:14:49 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
Message-ID: <199711130505.GAA14379@basement.replay.com>



>Just when you thought the Internet was safe from government
>censorship, Sen. Dan Coats has introduced a sequel to the
>notorious Communications Decency Act.

Oh joy.

>The bill punishes commercial distributors of material
>that's "harmful to minors" with six months in jail and a
>$50,000 fine. Unlike the original CDA, it applies only to
>web sites -- not to chatrooms, newsgroups, or email.
 ^^^^^^^^^

What defines a "web site?" "The World Wide Web" originally meant "material
accessible using the HyperText Transfer Protocol." The media and Klintonkov
distorted the term into something else, but that's what the term still
means. USENET newsgroups do not become "Internet chat groups" just because
the clueless sheeple start calling them that. Of course this is how the
government thinks.

If I make a posting to USENET did I post the material on a "web site?" If I
make the material accessible via ftp is it posted on a "web site?" What if
it's available using FSP? How about IRC? What about a Bob's Proprietary
Pornography Transfer Protocol? 

How are they going to track this? What happens when I post this material on
an Eternity server outside of the U.S.? What if I just keep posting my porn
through the remailer network? What if the porn site is in Amsterdam? What if
I just get tired of the totalitarians and double-blind the entire process
using the remailer network and while I'm at it I accept anonymous payment?
What if I bring my porn into a public computer lab and upload it somewhere
without any identification or with a psuedonym? Is the P.Q.R.T. (Pornography
Quick Response Team) going to bust through the door before I've done this,
which takes all of about 30 seconds?

What happens when people start posting such porn to sci.chem? What about
sci.crypt or alt.christnet? What about misc.legal? comp.org.eff.talk?
news.groups? 

>Like the original CDA, it's certain to be controversial.
>Sen. Coats (R-Indiana), chief GOP sponsor of the original
>CDA, said his bill takes into account the Supreme Court's
>unanimous vote in June that struck down his first try. "I
>have studied the opinion of the Court and come before my
>colleagues today to introduce legislation that reflects the
>parameters laid out by the Court's opinion," he said on the
>Senate floor.
>  (ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c105/s1482.is.txt)

Is this bill available on the "World Wide Web?" I would argue that reading
this bill is "harmful to minors" because it completely ignores the
Constitution of the United States. Further, it encourages people to lie,
cheat, violate oaths of office, and generally abuse power. 

Senator Coats, what an example for America's youth!

>Coats' brainchild is strikingly similar to (and in fact not
>as broad as) an ill-fated version of the first CDA that
>Rep. Rick White (R-Wash.) and the Center for Democracy and
>Technology embraced as a "compromise" in December 1995.
>Like Coats' bill, the White-CDT measure restricted material
>that was "harmful to minors."
>  (http://www.epic.org/cda/hyde_letter.html)

>A Coats staffer said the measure requires adult
>pornographers to place images behind a firewall. "If you're
>involved in the commercial distribution of material that's
>harmful to minors, you have to take the bad stuff and put
>it on the other side of a credit card or PIN number," David
>Crane said.

What happens when they say "this material must be put behind a firewall?" Do
I comply with the letter of the law if I firewall some random port like
49554? What if I firewall everything except port 80? What if I use a
dedicated box as a network router and firewall? These things are all
"firewalls."

Who determines what is a "valid firewall?" Microsoft? A Coats staffer? A
credit card company?

What happens when these credit card numbers are sent all over the network in
the clear? As it stands now you usually send a credit card number when you
want to buy something. What they want here is for everybody to go send
credit card numbers all over the net just to view free previews and get to
text-based information. And, of course, since we have to protect society
from the Four Horsemen, these credit card numbers will likely be sent in the
clear or using encryption which can be cracked by a college student running
a distributed cracker at idle priority on each of the several hundred
machines in a lab. And getting even *one* credit card number is worth a lot.

What prevents me from setting up a bogus site which asks for credit card
numbers to view some nudie pictures I pulled off USENET or other sites and
just storing the credit card numbers? How many of these people access just
one porn site so it would be that easy to track? How can anybody prove
that's what I did? Once handing credit card numbers out is as second nature
as SSNs, all bets are off.

And what happens when Little Johnny goes and gets Daddy's credit card and
uses the number as ID? If they aren't charging, this probably won't be
showing up on an invoice. And Little Johnny has plausible deniability
anyway. What about stolen credit card numbers?

Who determines what is "material harmful to minors?" Coats? The Supreme
Court? Psychologists? Scientologists? Klitonkov? The United Nations? My
hamster? Duncan McLeod of the Clan McLeod? Who?

Well, I guess this outlaws any meaningful political discussions, discussions
of abortions, any meaningful social discussions, any meaningful discussions
about sex or romance, any discussions about the prevention of sexually
transmitted diseases, any discussions of firearms, any discussions of
hand-to-hand combat, any discussions of self defense, any discussions of
guerilla warfare, any discussions of pyrotechnics, any discussions about
chemistry, lists like BUGTRAQ where exploits are posted, et cetera ad nauseum.

All of those things might be considered "harmful to minors." Damn the
Constitution and freedom! If it saves the life of one innocent yet
incredibly stupid child then just forget about that pesky freedom thing.
After all, that's only the domain of "far right-wing nazi gun nuts and
radicals," right?

>But the bill applies to more than just visual pornography.
>Its definition of material that could hurt minors includes
>any offensive sexual "communication" or "writing" without
>redeeming value. It applies to text-only web pages -- or
>bookstores that place sample chapters on the web.

Yeah! Go Senate! Go ahead and ban any digital copies of books like 1984 (oh
the irony!), digital versions of the Christian Bible, the Torah, et cetera
ad nauseum.

>Since it covers anyone who "through the World Wide Web is
>engaged in the business of the commercial distribution of
>material that is harmful to minors," it could apply to
>Internet providers and online services as well.

How are they going to enforce this one? Mandate that sites only serve
"government certified safe" or "independantly certified safe" sites? Turn
off all phone and network access, jam all radio and sattelite communications, 
and legislate that anybody caught with a laser capable of communications or
floppy disks with files on them which might contain stegoed data will be 
summarily executed?

>The FCC and the Department of Justice would be required to
>publish on their web sites "such information as is
>necessary to inform the public of the meaning of the term
>`material that is harmful to minors.'" Solveig Singleton, a
>lawyer at the Cato Institute, says: "The Supreme Court
>struggled for years to come up with a national defintion of
>obscenity. They failed. Harmful to minors is
>obscenity-lite. The FCC and Department of Justice won't
>have any luck coming up with a definition of
>obscenity-lite."

>Not a problem, predicts former porn-prosecutor Bruce
>Taylor, now the head of the National Law Center for
>Children and Families. "This bill will ensure that the
>hardcore pornographers don't get off the hook," he says.

"This bill will ensure that our freedoms are further eroded."

>Next step for Coats is to attract co-sponsors and to forward
>his bill to the Senate Commerce committee. Some judges
>criticized Congress for holding no hearings on the original
>CDA; Coats isn't going to make that mistake again. "There
>will be a concerted effort to build a substantial
>legislative history," says David Crane.

>This bill won't be the end of Congressional interest in
>cyberporn. "You'll probably see other legislation come
>forward. Introducing this is not abandoning our other
>concerns," Crane says.

>-Declan

My fellow Cypherpunks, what we have here is best explained by an analogy
like this:

The government decides that the youth of America is corrupting themselves
and harming their health by drinking soft drinks. The Congress introduces
legislation to outlaw softdrinks. Everyone except the National Law Center
for Fruit and Vegetables and some other far flung totalitarians think that
this legislation is rediculous and an unreasonable restriction of rights. It
passes anyway. It goes to the Supreme Court and the Court shoots it down.

Two years later Congress again tries to outlaw soft drinks. Since outlawing
of soft drinks en masse was not allowed by the Supreme Court, they just
outlaw Coke. This passes. People start drinking Mountain Dew and JOLT
instead. The Justice Department brings charges against these drinkers, the
people who manufactured it, the people who sold it to them, and the truck
drivers who shipped it. It goes to court and the defendants claim that the
law wasn't broken. The State says that the law was indeed broken because
"everybody refers to soft drinks as Coke."

This, of course, begs the question of why, if "Coke" is a synonym for
"soft drinks" they passed a law after the Supreme Court clearly stated that
they couldn't do such. If "Coke" is not a synonym for "soft drink" then they
have no charge against these people. 

Welcome to the Land of the Freeh.








From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 12 21:51:03 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:51:03 +0800
Subject: Fight CDA 2...?
Message-ID: <199711130553.XAA10731@einstein.ssz.com>



Seems to me that the fundamental question that should be asked here is:

Does the 10th require strict compliance with the wording of the Constitution
per the first sentence of the 10th or explain specificaly what
Constitutional sentences are being used to justify the 10th and by extension
the entire Constitution itself being exempt of mandatory constitutional
review at all stages of a laws life.

This is perhaps the key question that needs to be asked in order to properly
understand the language of the Constitution. Viewed in the light of strict
compliance the wording of the Constitution becomes remarkably free of
ambiguity.

If the 10th is taken literaly it can only be interpreted as saying:

 -  The federal government is required to justify all its rules,
    regulations, and offical actions within the explicit context of
    the text of the Constitution.

 -  In situations where there is no clear ruling the issue is remanded
    to the states for resolution per their own individual constitutions.
    Or in cases where the state constitution would not apply to the people.

 -  "to the people" needs to be interpreted as meaning to be left to
    individual discretion and therefore fundamentaly exempt from review
    at the state or federal level.

 -  This is the level a behaviour or action becomes a Constitutionaly
    recognized right exempt from future regulation per the 9th.

 -  The above interpretations are open to change per the methods described
    for Constitutional Amendments.

 -  "Congress shall make no law..." & "shall not be infringed." become
    much clearer and less open to federal level inteference.

Some of the results of this would be:

 -  The entire 'Drug War' machine would grind to a halt

 -  Many people in jail on solely drug possession and use charges
    with no other jailable charge would be released immediatly

 -  NASA would require some sort of Constitutional amendment to continue
    to operate

 -  The interaction and use between the US military and the state and
    local level regarding law enforcement would cease immediately

 -  CDC would require Constitutional amendment funding

 -  Issues of what is and what is not 'legal' speech would be resolved
    at the state level.

 -  Confiscation of property without compensation would be completely
    abandoned.

 -  The recognition that police have no fundamental rights under the
    Constitution because it in no way draws a distinction between
    polic & a non-police citizen. Laws can not draw distinction of
    this sort at the federal level.

 -  Each and every search *must* be at the direct interaction of a
    magistrate *and* must explicity describe what is being searched
    for *and further* demonstrate probable cause within a much more
    precise environment.

 -  The recognition that laws based on the distinction of 'victimless'
    and 'victim' crimes is a distinction that can't be drawn at the
    Constitutional level.

 -  A action or behaviour is either protected or it isn't.


This would create a set of states with quite a range of constitutional
environments. I can just see the "Mormon State of Utah" where the official
constitutional religion is Mormonism by amendment.



 --------------------------------------------------------------------

 
				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 
 

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 12 21:53:09 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:53:09 +0800
Subject: about RC4
Message-ID: <19971113053703.15152.qmail@hotmail.com>



There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 12 22:17:24 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:17:24 +0800
Subject: about RC4
In-Reply-To: <19971113053703.15152.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0903be209fb@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
>but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
>

It am developed.

You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.

Sayonara!

(And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Wed Nov 12 22:18:43 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:18:43 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <1f6c13f75e895afd9ec8f5d61ed19ff9@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Meaning of course, when Patrick Henry... --- Oops, Thomas Paine, sorry,
>transposed my patriots there -- first stood up to be counted, he did it with
>a pseudonym.

Think how difficult it must have been to publish a pseudonymous writing back
in their day.  And compare how easy it is now.  With a basic Internet
connection and some software I can post this message under the name Nerthus,
and anyone who took the time to save my public key in their keyring can
verify with almost complete certainty that "Nerthus" wrote this.

But as we progress on some fronts, we digress on others.  The tools which
can empower the individual are readily available, but the individual is
quickly becoming an automaton, a shell of the man he used to be.

"I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, 
or give me death." -- Patrick Henry

What is life without liberty?  Abject slavery.  Any sane man would rather
die than be a slave.  But what is this slavery?

It is the state in which we live our lives.  More often than not, our
oppressors are our own selves: our fears, our imaginings, our hatred.

Everyone does this: the "right-wing-gun-nut" who detests the actions of
the BATF, the Christian zealot who detests the pro-abortion crusaders/
Zoroastrians/creationists/NWO types, the IRS agent who detests the "tax
protestors", the treehugger who detests the corporate greed/profit
machine that is destroying the planet... I could go on but I think you
get my point.

Injustice happens everyday.  The next time you find yourself at Burger
King stuffing yourself with greasy slop, think of the millions of people
in Africa who are slowly starving to death.  Injustice, yes, but what
are you going to do about it?  Anything?

The fact is you can't do anything, even if you wanted to.  And because
of that we all become reactionary, angered, resentful, violent.  We
perpetuate the disintegration of mankind, of ourselves.

No people in their right mind should bow down and lick the boots of their
oppressors.  But neither should they kill them either.  The intelligent
action is to show the oppressors the errors in their ways.  Every human 
being, even our "enemies" have a mind that is not completely devoid of
reason.  The sooner we show them a better way of living, the sooner we can 
move toward it.  Then the possibility for an end to the injustices that
surround us becomes more available.

I leave you with a quote to ponder:

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."

Any idea who the pinko-liberal, NWO cocksucker was that said this?

It was Thomas Paine in his book "Rights of Man".

Nerthus

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From hamr at great-mail.com  Thu Nov 13 14:49:26 1997
From: hamr at great-mail.com (hamr at great-mail.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:49:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Advertisement: DON'T BUY TARGET E-MAIL LISTS!!
Message-ID: <>


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From hamr at great-mail.com  Thu Nov 13 14:49:26 1997
From: hamr at great-mail.com (hamr at great-mail.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:49:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Advertisement: DON'T BUY TARGET E-MAIL LISTS!!
Message-ID: <>


We have many great products and programs, which benefit the Internet
Marketer. If we have reached you in error and you don't wish to receive
future mail from us, double click the reply to address and type remove as the subject.  
Your address will be removed immediately!!


________________Don't Buy Target Email Lists!!________________

Create your own target lists with, with the same tools the professionals use!!

GEOLISTtm Version 1.0 Beta 3     Geographical Email Address Collector   
GeoList 1.0 lets you create geographically targeted email address lists without knowing a thing
about URLS or HTML. With this powerful new collector, target any city, in any state! then click extract!
GeoList will start gathering addresses automatically!! Watch as the list of e-mail addresses appears!

This is the same program the professionals use to gather and sell their own target lists!!

Build an entire Nation wide marketing campaign by state, or specific city.
GeoList will make it easier than ever, with its powerful multithreaded program.

Download the demo and try it! Once you see GeoList in action, you will buy it!
You can purchase GeoList  and within 30 to 60 seconds after purchase have a registered 
FUNCTIONAL program!!  
We have a user friendly "SUPER FAST" secure order-processing system!!!

To download the free demo send e-mail to   hamr at great-mail.com   Geolist Demo as subject


 DejaVuTM   Version 1.0     Collect Address from the History of the NewsGroups! 

Introducing a completely new target oriented email collection software linked directly to Deja News. 
Use DejaVu to automate your collection from Deja News, a complete historical archive of anyone who 
ever posted to a newsgroup!  30 to 60 seconds and you are a registered user!!
Millions of Newsgroup Articles to search!
You can choose to search through recent (last two months) articles, or articles dating back to 1995. 
 Simply enter a keyword to search with and press go!
To download the free demo send e-mail to hamr at great-mail.com    DejaVu Demo as subject

 SonicTM  Version 1.0 build 6     Multi-Tasking Email Address Collector     

The Sonic is an all-in-one, Web collection tool, that includes TargetSmart� Technology, 30 Second 
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a process which lets you capture and extract your targeted search results at staggering speeds.
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       Ability to search multiple sites simultaneously. 
       Search any one of 9 different search engines, or search them ALL simultaneously!

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Send e-mail to hamr at great-mail.com     Mailer demos as subject.

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2. Our CD of 28 million addresses, updated as of 11/7/97. The best list available.

All software is sold with tech support. We will take the time to walk you through the process
step by step.
               






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 12 23:09:35 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:09:35 +0800
Subject: John Brown
In-Reply-To: <ff0c08ce54aa4c02073a252924d8e659@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v0400270db0903bbee432@[139.167.130.248]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Fine.

I stand corrected.

John Brown not only started the civil war, but he also was the only reason
the union won.

"Movies. Laundry. Same thing."

The ganglia twitch.

The last guy who thought that kind of rubbish was Charlie Manson.

Helter Skelter,
Bob Hettinga

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 12 23:17:40 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:17:40 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711130046.SAA02417@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04002715b0903ef3a538@[139.167.130.248]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 7:45 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Monty wrote:

> As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
> freedom itself."

The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

>  Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are
> lost."

True enough, but it doesn't follow from your Foucault quote very much.
Besides, I'd rather say "because it can be done, it will be done."
Especially if it's better.

Freedom gives you all kinds of benefits you don't get from totalitarianism,
including a more robust economy, and thus, the society it's founded on.

Yeah, I know. It smacks of utilitarian determinism, even, horrors, logical
positivism. So, um, shoot me, okay? :-). On second thought, don't. I'm not
the guy asking for a no-knock around here...

> We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become
> poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

No, but that's not the point people are making about Tim. If you see a pride
of lions before they see you, it's probably a good idea to give them a
little room. It's not usually a good idea to walk up to them unarmed, and
scold them for being carnivorous. And, frankly, Tim's arsenal, against a
good entry team, is the equivalent of facing that entry team unarmed.
Shooting them only makes them mad.

However, to continue the above analogy, I know not why :-), if you're just
waiting for a Land Rover to come by, so you can get closer without the lions
eating you, I, personally, would call that prudent. Once ensconced in
Leyland's Finest, you can scold your lions all you want, because the
technology protects your foolishness.

So, by the same token, I would also say that if you're going to threaten a
federal judge with death on a public email list, it might behoove you to use
a nym and a remailer. Like you do, Monty. Using a nym and a remailer, I
mean, not threatening a federal judge. :-).

> Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
> does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
> hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
> credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

Yes. Fine. Tim has courage. God bless him. Hope he enjoys his firefight. May
the laser sights of his enemies never stay long enough on his motor cortex
to get a clean shot off. Etcetera.

> I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which operated
> in the 1790s from Philadelphia.

Yes. I read it too, when it came out. Franklin was my favorite patriot.
Aurora was founded by his grandson(?), if I remember. The one who went with
Franklin to Paris, as a kid, right?

> It made itself very unpopular with
> Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country".  It
> made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than
> respectful, but astute, observations.

Right. And then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition laws. And then the
Supreme court took him out. Game over.

> People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here.

First of all, let's clear the air about this right now. The bit where I
said,

> >I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy
> >about being next to soft targets these days,

is not me saying that I'm afraid that Tim is going to get us all sent to
Auschwitz-on-the-Patomac, or something. Far from it. It means exactly what I
said. That the situation *does* seem politically unstable at the moment.
Well, technologically unstable, anyway, with the rumored availabilty of
suitcase nukes, and a jumpy bunch of Feds almost hoping it's so, so they'll
have a few years more of the Cold War ricebowl to last them 'till
retirement. Winn Schwartau and the "InfoWar" boys are good examples of this
kind of dreck.

To return to the point, my actual concern, if you can call it that at this
point after so much haggling about it, is this now marginal feeling I have
that Tim's going to go piss on some cop's shoes and find himself with a 9
millimeter lobotomy one day. It, frankly, makes me feel sad. Tim's very
smart guy, and I've learned a lot from him, as I expect most people on this
list have.

All that, coupled with the "Final Days" pseudomillenial, well, literally,
FUD, that seems to pervade this list lately, finally brought me to my feet
out of lurker mode to call a spade a spade: The emperor, ladies and
gentleman, has no clothes. The sky isn't falling. The martians aren't
coming, and, face it, folks, the revolution ain't comin' at sunrise
tomorrow, romantic though it may be to believe. We aren't even going to have
Bosnia on the Bay next *week*, even if some people *do* want a little more
challenge in their lives than they're currently getting. :-). At the very
worst, all we're going to get is Tim and his local federales playing king of
the hill, probably with a resultant sinecure for a bunch of defense lawyers
and prosecutors. The irony of Tim, the putative anarchist, shooting his hard
earned asset wad on a bunch of lawyers is a sad one, to say the least.

> If
> they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
> wouldn't have to be censored.

Hogwash. What the conventional wisdom held, back in the 1790's, was a bunch
of neoaristocratic justifications for the devine rights of the state,
reminiscent of the devine rights of kings, and that George Washington, as
the victor of the revolutionary war, deserved as much power as he wanted.
(Sounds an awful lot like Napoleon, a generation later, who inherited a
similar post-revolutionary society, but one without any prior democratic
traditions.) By their logic, Adams, as his successor, was due the same power
that Washington "abdicated" when he stepped down after his second term.

Fortunately, a certain "nym" named Publius advocated the separation of
powers in the constitution, which created a supreme court, which used
Jefferson's Bill of Rights to shut all that crap down before it went too
far, modulo a little jail time for those who crash-tested the idea. Frankly,
the fact that the constitutional convention *voted* for the Bill of Rights,
or that the Continental Congress voted for the Declaration of Independence
before that, said more about the efficacy of 150 years of prexisting
decentralized personal autonomy in America than it ever did about
Jefferson's euclidean derivation of the rights of man, duly voted on and
approved in Philadelphia.

And, as I've said in another post in this thread, that's the point. The
technological conditions are right again, this time for the kind of
devolution from central authority that we had at the time of the American
revolution, but, instead of the formation of smaller nation-states, or even
Somolian clan warfare on the streets of Cupertino :-), I think that most
industrialized countries will just continue see the further replacement of
government control with economic forces. More freedom, in other words, all
because of the collapse in the price of information processing. The nation
state will become more ceremonial, not more dictatorial.

> Even though the editors were attacked and beaten, imprisoned, and
> charged with Federal crimes, they persevered.  It would not be
> unreasonable to say that Jefferson owed his Presidency to their
> efforts.  Indeed, it would not be too much to say that the
> Constitution (which failed to protect them) might not have survived
> without their efforts.

Really? Exactly how were they released then, when the Alien and Sedition
Acts were found unconstitional?

Again, I find the result more a function of the economics -- and not the
mysticism -- of freedom, than anything else. To be viciously blunt, here,
people live longer, and make more money, when they're free. That's why we
have freedom now. The cost of anything is the foregone alternative. When you
have a free society you forego misery. :-). I love progress.

> A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a
> big difference.  This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever
> malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power.  When you are asked to wear
> a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.
>
> Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection.
> It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock
> warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's
> gone.  It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a
> "heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting
> the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

Wow. Not a dry eye in the house. Here. Have a hankie, yourself.

Very eloquent, Monty, but it's still just mystical thinking.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From emc at wire.insync.net  Wed Nov 12 23:23:45 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:23:45 +0800
Subject: about RC4
In-Reply-To: <19971113053703.15152.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199711130718.BAA24142@wire.insync.net>




> There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?

The code interoperates with the RSADSI RC4, but the various RC4 sources
offered in the FTP lib were coded by individuals not affiliated with
RSADSI. 

So, same cipher mathematically speaking, but not the specific
copyrighted code RSADSI licenses to its customers. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Nov 13 03:33:20 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:33:20 +0800
Subject: Minor Language Note
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b08fe06c4c97@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <0uD4Fe14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tiny Tim <tcmay at got.net> writes:
> (Sometimes people have three names, sometimes two names, popularly used.
> Criminality has little to do with it. For example, Richard Speck, Charles
> Manson, John Walker, Aldrich Ames, Ted Kaczynski, Timothy McVeigh, Terry
> Nichols.  Most of them presumably have middle names.)

We all know what the "C." in "Timmy C. May" stands for...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Nov 13 03:47:59 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:47:59 +0800
Subject: Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <f63b7db85ca7d5965e82fb174acf2ba6@anon.efga.org>



Timothy May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly 
wired to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. 
That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has caused 
extensive brain damage.

         o_,   o
        <\__, v|> Timothy May
         |    < \






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Thu Nov 13 04:35:01 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:35:01 +0800
Subject: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971111175921.006da60c@ibcnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971112105110.1358A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> I'll ignore all profanities and go straight to the points you make:
> 
> 1) Never heard of LCSR (or whatever) and we market our product ourself,
> Meganet Corporation from California USA.

Linear Shift Feedback Registers. If you haven`t heard of this common type 
of RNG you don`t seem to have much cryptographic experience. 

> 2) AOL, NCR, Perot Systems & dozens other have already looked into the
> product and contaced us, so yes, they did saw it and liked what they saw.

AOL is not a crypto company, what dozen others? Anyone serious, eg. RSA, 
Netscape, any other serious crypto company.

> 3) you use a lot of acronyms - what is CMR ? LCSR ?

Corporate Message Recovery, Linear Shift Feedback Register (I used the 
wrong acronym, I should have said LSFR, my appologies). 

> p.s. - I wonder if you know what's the source of all the bad rep we've got
> - nobody knows us and we never posted anything on your forum, so what the
> heck ?

I flame you because I get tired of seeing snake-oil peddlers who won`t 
listen. If you come to a list with a serious proposal, present your 
scheme and say "here it is, do your best" people will take you seriously, 
you will be flamed if you constantly persist in saying your product is 
unbreakable. The crypto community is highly receptive to beginners but 
not to snake-oil merchants.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From nobody at neva.org  Thu Nov 13 05:19:52 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:19:52 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711131314.HAA05512@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Blanc wrote:
>By jove, I think I've "got" it - there *is* something deeper going on
>here:
>
>Tim is really an undercover 'narc' - through his provocative remarks
>he's actually encouraging all the violent terrorists on the list to
>come out of their lurking holes and reveal themselves.  Then he's
>going to turn them all in for a cash reward, which he'll use to buy
>more high-tech stock.
>
>Yeah, that's it!

While Blanc is only joking, I want to take this opportunity to comment
on the Find The Mole game.

Moles look just like everyone else.  Speculation on who is actually a
provocateur or an informant or a saboteur or whatever only has the
purpose of creating unhappiness and undermining anything worthwhile
that is going on.

It is likely that there are informants lurking amongst the
cypherpunks.  The secret police watch and infiltrate far less
interesting groups, and this one has received more than its share of
publicity.  (In a couple of decades we'll probably learn who they
were.  Hopefully things will work out in such a way that this will be
worth a good laugh.)

The right thing to do is to assume there are a certain number of moles
around and engineer your activities accordingly.  If you really think
you can Find The Mole, then I would think your first step is to keep
quiet about what you are doing.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Thu Nov 13 05:20:30 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:20:30 +0800
Subject: Laws Controlling Speech
Message-ID: <199711131315.HAA05632@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>What I said was that the judge(s) in the Paladin case had committed a
>capital crime. Saying, for example, that OJ committed a capital crime
>is not uncommon, so why should judges be exempt from similar
>opinions?

Laws prohibiting speech are notoriously difficult to define and to
enforce impartially.  They quickly evolve into a blank check for the
authorities.  (Note that even if these laws didn't have this property,
Monty Cantsin would oppose them.)

OJ is fair game because the authorities would like to see him in
prison.  The judge is not fair game because he is a judge and this is
a list with a bad attitude.

The wonderful thing about language is that it is infinitely malleable.

You could write a play in which a prominent character was a bear.
Sounds harmless, right?  In 1969 in Czechoslovakia, this is how people
wrote unfriendly plays about the Russians.

Child porn is notoriously difficult to define.  A few years ago there
was a case in which a convicted child pornographer or molester (my
memory fails) was paroled.(1.) One of the conditions was that he was
not to have any child pornography.  Later, he was found with a
videotape of children in bathing suits and his parole was revoked.
The children were not involved with any sexual acts, however, the
judge decided that the motion of the camera was overly suggestive.

A few years ago I saw an ad for soap in which cute little girls were
cast in the roles that lovely adult women usually play.  To most
people, this was an amusing and even charming advertisement.  But,
were similar footage found in the hands of a child molester there
would be serious legal consequences.

Pornography in general is not so hard to define.  If the material in
question is enjoyed by working class people and is inexpensive to
purchase, then it is pornography.  If the material is enjoyed by
wealthy or "cultured" people, hangs in a museum, and would be
expensive to purchase, then for the most part it is Art and not
pornography.

Let's take Michelangelo.  Here is an artist who seldom portrays women.
(I know of no instance, actually.)  When the image of a woman was
unavoidable to the work, he used male models anyway.  (The Sibyls in
the Sistine Chapel are a good example.)  It is quite obvious that a
large proportion of his work is, in fact, homoerotic in nature.  Yet,
it has been promoted for centuries because it was primarily enjoyed by
ruling elites.  For that matter, consider the centuries long
fascination with images of Christ and the Saints undergoing various
tortures.  Clearly homoerotic in many cases and juxtaposing images of
pain and death with sex.  Remove the religious imagery, and anybody
found painting or possessing such work will generally be relegated to
the fringes of society.

When speech is regulated, the meaning of the speech is defined by
whether the speaker is in favor with the authorities.  This is well
understood by the people who propose and pass these laws.  Their
intention is not only to suppress bad ideas, but to liberate the
government from the annoying inconvenience of obeying the law, most
especially (but not exclusively) with regard to the government's
political opponents.

And, as we all know, this issue is particularly insidious when it
comes to laws prohibiting free encrypted speech.  The art of
steganography has reached the point where anything can be "shown" to
be a secret message of some kind.  Should it be decided to truly
enforce these laws, it will be done by letting the cops off the leash
to do whatever they please to whomever they like.

(1. Why we parole child molesters so we can imprison drug users is
beyond me.  It has every appearance of complete insanity on the part
of the authorities.  Or, I suppose, it could mean they don't really
care about kids in spite of all their talk on the subject.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From jseiger at cdt.org  Thu Nov 13 05:34:08 1997
From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:34:08 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0900374bd99@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0909ec791b0@[204.254.21.165]>



At 10:59 PM -0500 11/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[Got a note from a longtime Hill observer on CDT and their "harmful to
>minors" compromise. --Declan]

Will you give this up aleady? What, exactly, are you trying to accomplish?

>>I remember a press conference, or a briefing, on the Hill in which
>>White, AOL, ISA, CDT, et. al. were promoting the measure very
>>heavily.  Jerry spoke out strongly in favor of it.

This briefing was NOT about the "white compromise", it was about the
Cox-Wyden "Internet Freedom and Family Empowerment Act" in July of 1995.
As you may recall, the Cox-Wyden bill, which passed the house 420-4,
prohibited the gvt from imposing content regulations on the Net.  CDT did
indeed strongly support the Cox-Wyden bill.

The "White Compromise" was brought together and offered at the 11th hour of
the conference committee negotiations in December of 1995.  There was never
a press conference about it. And, for the record, CDT's policy post about
the White bill can be found at http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp311204.html

>>Memories in Washington are short, and distortions are the currency of
>>the realm.

Unfortunately, so is forwarding completely false and misleading information
Declan.  This is just so foolish.

Jonah


  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger at cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/







From FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com  Thu Nov 13 05:43:34 1997
From: FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:43:34 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A7493430@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>



Bob Hettinga wrote:
>Frankly, waving your Glock at the local sherriff and daring him to come
>shoot you out of der MayBunker is not just free speech, it's,
charitably,
>grandstanding. Making a threat on the life of a judge, or even begging
for
>Washington to be nuked -- something you can't possibly do yourself --
is in
>the same catagory of "will someone rid me of this priest",  or "but
that
>would be wrong", or the Castro assination exhortations which inspired
Oswald
>to kill JFK. In this country, it's all free speech, but that doesn't
keep
>you from getting impaled, "accidentally" or otherwise, on the pointy
end of
>the state, or public opinion, when you piss it off.

I think you are falling into the "map _is_ the territory" mistake here,
Bob.  Tim is just speaking his mind, lucidly and forcefully as usual.
(The same way you do, which is why I enjoy reading both your posts so
much, although your prose styles differ so greatly.)  Tim isn't "waving
your Glock at the local sherriff" -- he is talking about his actions if
law enforcement decides to violate the Constitution personally upon him.
Although it is certainly the case that all rights, at their boundaries,
may be observed more in the breech, I don't think the situation is so
bad _yet_ that Tim has to lay awake nights worrying about a no-knock.

Tim, I guess I see you as someone who has spotted a bunch of
thunderclouds on the horizon, so you have decided to stock up on
raingear before the deluge.  But, with a little luck and a lot of common
sense on the part of the populace, neither Tim nor anyone else will have
to go through that particular hell.  As one additional datapoint, when
our local "FAX Daily" (a daily FAXed paper) took a poll on GAK, 66% were
against government access to keys (and "FAX Daily" is aimed at the
general population).  (I have this suspicion that California is more
likely to develop "thunderclouds on the horizon" that don't turn into
local storms, due to the greater concentration of Democratic Party
members there -- Indiana, as a Republican state, certainly sees a lot of
posturing about family values and such, but with Republican
anti-government rhetoric, it is hard for Republicans to push too hard
for the massive increases of government regulation that would be
required to actually enforce family values by governmental fiat.)

Tim, from what I understand of what he said, is just getting prepared if
the worst comes.  One of the functions of this list as I see it is just
this sort of preparation, which can often stave off the actual worst.
If those who would desire this sort of power over the population are
made aware that the population won't stand for it, they are less likely
to continue to seek that level of power.


To close with a quote that I think (from my Midwest perception of the
situation) describes best how the near-term will actually work out:
"There's no way the federal government could oppress the citizens,
because
the populace is armed to the teeth, and the officials would just get
their
heads blown off."
   -- James Madison argues the pro-government position, Federalist
Papers #46
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm at indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"






From declan at well.com  Thu Nov 13 05:59:53 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:59:53 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b0902b2616d6@[204.254.21.105]>
Message-ID: <v03007801b090b35f2a14@[204.254.21.61]>



Jonah,

Contrary to what you claim, I'm not "trying to accomplish" anything except
report the facts. (Somehow you don't seem to like them very much.) You'll
remember that when I wrote about the Coats CDA II bill, I included one
paragraph about the history of "harmful to minors" legislation:

>Coats' brainchild is strikingly similar to (and in fact not
>as broad as) an ill-fated version of the first CDA that
>Rep. Rick White (R-Wash.) and the Center for Democracy and
>Technology embraced as a "compromise" in December 1995.
>Like Coats' bill, the White-CDT measure restricted material
>that was "harmful to minors."

Then CDT responded to my article publicly, incorrectly claiming that CDT
did not embrace the harmful to minors "compromise." My post was to correct
those inaccuracies and clear the air -- and, you'll remember I concluded by
saying I hoped we could move forward to discussing Coats. You seem unable
-- or unwilling -- to do that.

So, if you insist, we'll revisit your "harmful to minors" compromise.
You're now denying that CDT's Jerry Berman stood up with Rick White and
Bruce "CDA" Taylor in a House hearing room to announce the "compromise?"
You're arguing that the three press reports I forwarded about CDT
supporting the "compromise" are inaccurate?

-Declan


At 08:21 -0400 11/13/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>At 10:59 PM -0500 11/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>[Got a note from a longtime Hill observer on CDT and their "harmful to
>>minors" compromise. --Declan]
>
>Will you give this up aleady? What, exactly, are you trying to accomplish?
>
>>>I remember a press conference, or a briefing, on the Hill in which
>>>White, AOL, ISA, CDT, et. al. were promoting the measure very
>>>heavily.  Jerry spoke out strongly in favor of it.
>
>This briefing was NOT about the "white compromise", it was about the
>Cox-Wyden "Internet Freedom and Family Empowerment Act" in July of 1995.
>As you may recall, the Cox-Wyden bill, which passed the house 420-4,
>prohibited the gvt from imposing content regulations on the Net.  CDT did
>indeed strongly support the Cox-Wyden bill.
>
>The "White Compromise" was brought together and offered at the 11th hour of
>the conference committee negotiations in December of 1995.  There was never
>a press conference about it. And, for the record, CDT's policy post about
>the White bill can be found at http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp311204.html
>
>>>Memories in Washington are short, and distortions are the currency of
>>>the realm.
>
>Unfortunately, so is forwarding completely false and misleading information
>Declan.  This is just so foolish.
>
>Jonah
>
>
>  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
>            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
>
>--
>Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
>Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
><jseiger at cdt.org>
>
>http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
>http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/








From ryan at michonline.com  Thu Nov 13 06:18:25 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:18:25 +0800
Subject: about RC4
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0903be209fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971113090618.8672D-100000@king>



> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

Because they couldn't speak a non-native language perfectly?

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From adam at homeport.org  Thu Nov 13 06:51:14 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:51:14 +0800
Subject: Minor Language Note
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b08fe06c4c97@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711131442.JAA19758@homeport.org>



The current? US New & World Report has a cover story on terrorism, in
which they report on James Dalton Bell.  Pictures, claims that we're
right wing extremists, the whole shebang.  James Dalton Bell does
sound more threatening than Jim Bell.  And as to your list, Tim, many
of the people you quote are either long dead or serious troublemakers.
(Robert Anton Wilson).  It does seem that the full name invocation is
intentional.

Adam


Tim May wrote:
| 
| >> While it was not Tim's intention to make Jim look like a criminal, the
| >> use of a defendent's full name is often used to connote criminality.
| >>
| >> Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, John Wayne Gacy, Richard Milhous
| >> Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton... there are many examples.
| 
| George Washington Carver, James Fennimore Cooper, Richard Dean Anderson,
| Clare Booth Luce, Robert Anton Wilson, Francis Scott Key, .....
| 
| Your point was what, Monty?
| 
| (Sometimes people have three names, sometimes two names, popularly used.
| Criminality has little to do with it. For example, Richard Speck, Charles
| Manson, John Walker, Aldrich Ames, Ted Kaczynski, Timothy McVeigh, Terry
| Nichols.  Most of them presumably have middle names.)
| 
| Oh, and as to divining what Tim's "intention" was, this mindreading and
| psychoanalysis shtick is getting old.
| 
| --Tim May
| 
| The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
| ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
| Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
| ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
| W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
| Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
| "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
| 
| 
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Nov 13 06:57:41 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:57:41 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks - passing mention [FYI] [sci-fi]
Message-ID: <199711131457.IAA12033@einstein.ssz.com>



Informational/Entertainment content only:


Minimal crypto relevance but in Allen Steele's book Tranquillity Alternative
(ISBN 0-441-00433-4) which concerns a alternate-history of the space program
there is mention of 'cypherpunks' made in reference to cracking double-key
encrypted passwords on Le Matrix.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Nov 13 08:20:18 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:20:18 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711130046.SAA02417@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04002727b090b930190b@[139.167.130.248]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


At 8:31 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:


> Thank you. And contrary to what Hettinga claimed in one of his posts, I
>did not call for a judge to be killed. (Though, as I understand the law,
>that's not in and of itself illegal.) What I said was that the judge(s) in
>the Paladin case had committed a capital crime. Saying, for example, that
>OJ committed a capital crime is not uncommon, so why should judges be
>exempt from similar opinions?

Fair enough. However, I'm sure that any average junior-college educated
"BATFag" agent, or whatever, would read that stuff exactly as you intended
it. As a violent threat against a judge. No amount of sophistical
gerrymandering of pseudolegal semantics after the fact will dissuade the
guys with the leftover NATO toys from showing up and leaving their own
calling cards, to quote someone here recently.

> What we are seeing with Hettinga's anguished armchair analysis of me and
>my motivations is a lot of overly personal, even fixated, attention on me
>and my life. He pretends to know my social life, pretends to understand
>why I won't just tone down my comments and not rock the boat. Utter
>nonsense.

Speak for yourself, Tim. Actually, I think this entire argument of yours is a
red herring. To the extent that I, like most of the remaining members of this
list, stick around because you ocassionally say something very interesting is
not prima facie evidence of a "fixation" as you call it. Guessing at your
possible motives for doing some patently foolish things lately has become a
pretty good pastime among those who have read, and respected, what you've
written here on cypherpunks over the years. Call it armchair psychology, if
you want.

> I fully agree, and have not said I expect a full-scale assault on me, nor
> have I said I would expect to win such a war. The context of my recent
> comments about guns was the Gun Shows recently.

And the context of other comments within recent memory has been about
how much ammunition you have, how you've covered your property with sensors,
how you've reinforced various doors and windows, how you've put firearms
around your house, all just waiting for an eventual assault. All prudent
measures, mind you, if taken privately. And if you weren't also threatening
federal officials with their lives on a public email list.

:-).


> (I haven't seen Hettinga foaming at the mentions by certain other
> Cypherpunks of the Cypherpunks Shooting Club (which I am too far away from
> to attend, by the way). Nor did I see him remonstrate against the list
> member who brought his AR-15 carbine to a Cypherpunks meeting and held it
> up, like any good revolutionary holding up his Kalashnikov.)

Nope. You haven't. And I know members of the Cypherpunks Shooting Club, and,
while the AR-15 gag was a little silly, it can probably be chalked up to,
the um, irrational exuberence of youth, or something. :-).

I also happen to know that the person with the AR-15 bought it for personal
defense, probably brought about by the kind of quasi-millenial FUD going
around these days, and not to bring down the new world order or something.

I mean, some of my best friends are gun nuts. :-). I'd even let my daughter
marry one, if I had a daughter. Wish I could go out and play with a varmit
rifle, myself. I've read "Unintended Consequences" at the request of a gun nut
friend, :-), and it was well worth reading, if for all the gun lore alone.
Someday, it would even be nice to go shooting, if I can be trusted on a range,
anyway.

However, Tim, *none* of those people you've mentioned, and, frankly, no one I
know of but you, has effectively broadcasted a threat to kill federal
officials, or, to interpret it charitably, a not-so elliptical request to have
federal officials killed, ala "Beckett". Or a blanket invitation to a midnight
fandango on a California hilltop, for that matter.


> It happens that a lot of totalitarian moves are happening at this time. My
> "Mad as Hell" article lists a bunch of them. CDA clones, new crypto
> legislation, Clinton banning importation of fully-compliant foreign
> weapons, etc.

Yup, and it should be brought to people's attention, (like I'm pointing out
your present silliness),  paid attention to, and taken care of by saying,
publically, how silly, illegal, and draconian it all is. Calling for the
assassination of a judge won't get the job done, however.


Personally, I think the best way to stop all statist crap in its tracks is to
make it economically unrealistic to ban cryptography and anonymity, and the
best way to do that is with the widespread development and use of the
strongest possible financial cryptography. And, of course, the best way to do
that is to create internet transaction settlement protocols which are
so much cheaper to execute than any other way to move money, that they are
ignored at the economic peril of the country which tries to control them. I
find the fact that most of these transaction protocols, such as Chaum's blind
signatures, will prove to be cheaper *because* they're anonymous, more than a
little intriguing, myself. :-).


Nonetheless, whatever people themselves do to make strong crypto happen, it
sure beats wasting time with lawyers (ala EFF and CDT), and now, with this
Fortress May�ana adventure, guns. Well, offensive threats with guns, anyway.
(And certainly not, of course, with money, to drag Warren Zevon into it. :-)).


I seem to remember someone saying "Cypherpunks write code" around here, once.
That's because running code is a fait accompli. Reality is not optional.


Yes, Tim, I know. You've forgotten more about cryptography and software than
I will ever learn, and you're right. The fact remains, nonetheless, that
you're wasting that all that hard-won experience and information if it has a
9mm hole in it.

> And the rumors are mounting about a series of possible raids around the
>holidays this Thanksgiving Day. The FBI has acknowledge the fax sent out
>as legitimate.

I have one question. Exactly what are you going to say, having made this
incredible prediction of your impending seige at Casa Timothy, when nothing
happens? Are you going to march into the local FBI office and demand that
they lock you up, or something? Exactly how does escalating a violent
confrontation with people who wouldn't care about you otherwise do anything
more than make them want to shut you up the hard way?

More to the point, exactly how does it speed the deployment of cryptography
and privacy?

"Ah", as an Irish friend once used to say, "there's that, isn't it?"


> While militia members and Cypherpunks may not be able to withstand a full
> out war for very long, the mere willingness to defend oneself can itself
> act as a deterrent. This is basic game theory, basic strategy.

With, of course, as Tim ("we're just a mailing list", "anarchy is about no
leaders") May, as Maximum Generalissimo of the Revolution, or better yet, as
the Old Man on the Mountain?

Give me a break.

> Scared bunny little rabbits who tone down their words so as not to make
> their masters angry at them will not be any safer, ironically enough.

Yup, Tim. That's me. A slave. </CatoKalienMode> Hold on? I've got a tattoo
on my forearm somewhere? Nope? That's right... they gave me an implant? I
know I have one, too? because at night? they *talk* to me through it?...
</CKM>

The ganglia twitch. Call it ameteur psychology, I suppose.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Nov 13 08:20:46 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:20:46 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b08ffcdcfb0f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v04002726b090ae3684e1@[139.167.130.248]>



At 7:56 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:


> No doubt Bob Hettinga thinks my mention of this case is dangerous, that
> good little bunny rabbits don't make Big Brother angry.

:-). Actually, Tim, I don't think it's dangerous, at least to me
personally, and to anyone else on this list, for that matter. What I said
was, you're counterproductive to your own cause (you could become a poster
for statism, as I said before), and, if you continued to directly threaten
the lives of people who had the power to hurt you, in public, with direct
attribution including your name, location, and email address, you,
personally, could wind up waking up very surprised one night, consitutional
free speech guarantee or no. Which would be a drag, because, as Monty and
everyone else here knows, you are the backbone of this list. :-). You've
taught all of us a lot over the years, but, frankly, this stuff lately
makes you look like you've lost it.


> Well, I will say
> what I said before: the BATF and LA County Sheriffs responsible and
> involved in this case should be tried in a criminal court, should be
> convicted (based on what I have seen), and they should then be sentenced to
> die in the gas chamber at San Quentin. This is, after all, what they do to
> gang bangers who shoot up liquor stores. Cops should face execution. In
> this case, a mass execution of the dozen raiding officers would send a
> strong message to other cops.)

Though containing a little more due process in it than normal, :-), the
above is mostly the same as all the other public threats you've made
against people who whave many more guns than you do.

Frankly, I agree with what you're saying, to the extent that people who
make armed assaults against innocent people shouldn't get away with it.
And, further, I think that as more people speak out against it, with more
fact and less hysteria than you do, those making armed assaults won't do it
anymore. Heck, if people kept just more firearms in their homes, and shot
back occasionally, those armed assaults would stop. However, that's quite
different from what you're doing, which is more along the lines of "come
and get me, Copper". Top o' the morning, and all that.

Oh well. It's free country. Even hysteria's alright, I suppose, if you want
die for it by using your true name to do it. And, frankly, Tim, who's to
begrudge you your spot on the Brokaw show. You being Mad as Hell, and all
that. I mean, sure: "Tim May. John Brown. Same thing.", right?

I just don't think the apacolypse is coming on January 1, 2001, much less
this Thanksgiving, is all.

The sky is not falling. I agree with Gibbon, below. As attractive as the
conclusion is sometimes, the end of the world has yet to actually happen.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Nov 13 08:52:51 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:52:51 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>



> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
> >
> 
> It am developed.
> 
> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
> 
> Sayonara!
> 
> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
> 
> --Tim May

This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
its leader.






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Nov 13 08:54:58 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:54:58 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0909ec791b0@[204.254.21.165]>
Message-ID: <v0400272db090db000ad9@[139.167.130.248]>



At 8:51 am -0500 on 11/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> Bruce "CDA" Taylor

Nit. It's not Bruce "CDA" Taylor. It's Bruce "Penis with a Blister on it"
Taylor.

A moniker assigned to Mr. Taylor for his continued repetition of the phrase
into a microphone, in order to drown the speech of someone on a panel with
him at CFP96.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Nov 13 08:58:02 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:58:02 +0800
Subject: Find the Mole in the Mirror
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971113164457.00bf071c@pop.pipeline.com>



Monty Cantsin wrote:

>The right thing to do is to assume there are a certain number of moles
>around and engineer your activities accordingly.  If you really think
>you can Find The Mole, then I would think your first step is to keep
>quiet about what you are doing.

Like, if you will, Monty Cantsin, the venerable generic pseudonym
for sub rosa strategems. You fingering yourselves, Monty?

If you haven't been IDed as a mole here yet, you will, probably by
your own woefully engineered statements.

All of us are moles for one ideology or another, maybe for
several if the blowing wind tosses us that way. What's the
point of being here if not for relishment of deceitful faux combat, to
draw out the enemy (enemies) as Tim and Bob admirably display
in their artful allure of ulterior motivated peacemakers and
condescendors, me for one, as Declan love jousts CDT,
as many us pisswind DC, NWO, ZOG, Armenians, Nipponese. 

A mole is a disguise of something more treacherously insidious 
than that, say, a rational human, a benevolent mediator, an advocate 
for peace, for justice, for the constitution, or another an unadmitted 
plot for no-work supremacy through criminal law (lawful crime).

The mole(s) here are known, look in the mirror, and marked by the 
beast, look closely in the mirror, for XORing, their coming in all 
conceivable disguises welcomed, then tricked, attacked, ridiculed, 
and finally filtered, erased, deleted, plonked, censored, to resub
pseudonymously, rebooted, zapped, ignored, still we-they come 
back for more S&M, it's an addictive calling to evangelism, 
anon-remailer generic pseudonym reputation-capital real and 
imagined Ritalin nirvana. 

Nothing better to do with wasted lives, the option of getting one is 
a dream long gone. Faking one is all that's left, the mole in the
hole.







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 13 09:22:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:22:22 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A7493430@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b090d5290cea@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:39 AM -0700 11/13/97, Fisher Mark wrote:

>I think you are falling into the "map _is_ the territory" mistake here,
>Bob.  Tim is just speaking his mind, lucidly and forcefully as usual.
>(The same way you do, which is why I enjoy reading both your posts so
>much, although your prose styles differ so greatly.)  Tim isn't "waving
>your Glock at the local sherriff" -- he is talking about his actions if
>law enforcement decides to violate the Constitution personally upon him.
>Although it is certainly the case that all rights, at their boundaries,
>may be observed more in the breech, I don't think the situation is so
>bad _yet_ that Tim has to lay awake nights worrying about a no-knock.

Indeed, I'm saying I plan to defend myself should a Donald Scott-type
predawn raid occur. (The FBI fax about gun stockpilers, the Northwest
connection, the Jim Bell sentencing at about the same time, and other
indicators tell me that the upcoming months could be crucial.)

>Tim, I guess I see you as someone who has spotted a bunch of
>thunderclouds on the horizon, so you have decided to stock up on
>raingear before the deluge.  But, with a little luck and a lot of common
>sense on the part of the populace, neither Tim nor anyone else will have
>to go through that particular hell.  As one additional datapoint, when

Yep, "there's a storm coming." A great line from a great movie.

Those "increasing numbers of laws I'm a felon under" are how the government
threatens those who speak out, those who exercise constitutional rights.
Civil forfeiture, RICO, and selective prosecution are becoming major tools
to suppress dissident actions.


>Tim, from what I understand of what he said, is just getting prepared if
>the worst comes.  One of the functions of this list as I see it is just
>this sort of preparation, which can often stave off the actual worst.
>If those who would desire this sort of power over the population are
>made aware that the population won't stand for it, they are less likely
>to continue to seek that level of power.

Just so.

Frankly, I have a lot more interest these days in practicing down at the
gun range than I do in trying to "do crypto" by, for example, wading
through the SET specs.

(I heard some talks on SET at last year's Hackers Conference, and it was
mind-numbingly boring stuff. Several pounds of bureaucratic bullshit. And
nothing to do with Cypherpunks goals, either. Just a credit card company
spec, about as Cypherpunkish as exploring printer driver protocols.)

For those forced by their employers to work on SET, may you pray at the
Temple of SET, San Francisco Zodiac Chapter. I'll be somewhere else.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 13 09:27:59 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:27:59 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b08ffcdcfb0f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b090d9440404@[207.167.93.63]>



At 7:03 AM -0700 11/13/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:56 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>> No doubt Bob Hettinga thinks my mention of this case is dangerous, that
>> good little bunny rabbits don't make Big Brother angry.
>
>:-). Actually, Tim, I don't think it's dangerous, at least to me
>personally, and to anyone else on this list, for that matter. What I said
>was, you're counterproductive to your own cause (you could become a poster
>for statism, as I said before), and, if you continued to directly threaten
>the lives of people who had the power to hurt you, in public, with direct

You have now repeated this "Tim has directly threatened the life of a
federal judge" charge several times.

This is false.

You claim I am doing "the cause" a disservice. I claim you are spreading
misinformation and trumping up a charge which you must hope is being read
by the Feds.

You sicken me.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Nov 13 09:50:03 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:50:03 +0800
Subject: Fwd: Set Phasers to Stun.
Message-ID: <v04002736b090e9185a7c@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:56:52 -0500
From: glen at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
To: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Cc: bostic at bsdi.com
Subject: Set Phasers to Stun.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:56:48 -0500
Sender: glen at shell.ncm.com
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2463
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request at substance.abuse.blackdown.org


Forwarded-by: Mark Stewart <mark at ps.cus.umist.ac.uk>
Forwarded-by: DarkTrick <dan at coromir.demon.co.uk>

      1    NS  01 Nov 97 SET PHASERS TO SHOCK . . . (358)

           By PAUL GUINNESSY

Real life is catching up with Star Trek. Hans Eric Herr from San
Diego,California, has been granted a patent for a 'phaser' that uses
laser light to stun or kill.

Crude stun weapons called tasers are already available in the US. The
weapons fire two small darts attached to a wire. A pulsing electrical
current passes down the wire and stuns the victim by 'tetanisation'. The
pulses make the muscles of the victim contract in unison, rendering
them helpless.

The disadvantages of tasers are that they can only be fired once before
they have to be reloaded. They are also classified as firearms because
they fire projectiles.

One attempt to overcome the limitations of tasers uses a stream of
liquid that hits a victim with a 10 000-volt charge. This causes painful
muscle spasms in the victim. But the liquid can split into droplets,
breaking the electrical connection, and is hard to aim. Herr's invention
uses lasers to generate intense beams of ultraviolet light.

These create a path of ionised air down which precisely modulated
electrical current is sent. The currents can be manipulated to cause
painful contractions, stun a victim painlessly, or induce a heart
attack. It has a far longer range than the taser-over 100 metres-and the
beam can penetrate clothing. The phaser can also fire many shots before
it needs reloading.

Using ultraviolet light avoids legal restrictions on weapons that blind
with laser light, since it would take several minutes to damage the
retina with the wavelength of light used by the device.

A hand-held version of the phaser is not yet available because the
argon-fluoride discharge-pumped excimer laser it uses is as big as a
kitchen table. Herr is hoping that others will find ways to make his
device smaller and more powerful, as well as improve its range. He says
that any technically competent person would be able to build a phaser.

Steve Aftergood, a senior research analyst at the Federation of American
Scientists in Washington, says: 'At first glance it seems incredible,
and rather disturbing.'

New Scientist
Volume  156.   Issue   2106.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 13 09:54:30 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:54:30 +0800
Subject: Weapons on the Web, and mention of remailers
Message-ID: <v03102804b090db9f91b4@[207.167.93.63]>




This is from http://techweb.cmp.com/ng/online/current/specials/guns/guns2.htm

Lots of misinformation and disinformation. Perfectly legal items are
referred to as "banned." Scare tactics about silenced machine guns, sniper
rifles, and even "speed loaders to load all of the cylinders of a revolver
at once" (horrors! does the author know that every gun store I've ever been
in sells these things for about $6 each?).

One quote even refers to "our" technologies: "It might seem that the
contents of rec.guns alone could be easily monitored for illegal
transactions. However, my sources have shown me that with the availability
of anonymous remailers and several sources of digital cash, it is
increasingly possible for seller and buyer to never know who the other
party is or where they are."

(This of course is nonsense, about the digital cash, etc. If one exchanges
an item in physical space, at least for now there is some mailing or
shipping nexus. (Anonymous drops in storage lockers are a possibility,
though ripe for stings.) Certainly I have never heard of a digital cash
transaction for a gun...and not for a lot of other things, either.)

In view of the Paladin case, the Feinstein "bomb-making instructions ban,"
and calls to shut down gun shows, this article may give some tips on coming
actions. And the plans for the Federal Trade Commission and Food and Drug
Administration to start cruising the Web looking for illegal speech also
provides a clue.

Personally, I'm beginning to think

--Tim May


--begin quote--

Threaded Chat
The rec.guns group is a bit like a combination of Town Hall and Market
Square in Firearms Land. People sound off about government regulations, at
any level, in any locale. Disgruntled users warn others about substandard
products. New members ask advice and old hands compare notes on match grade
ammunition. Once I saw an advisory posted to all people who had bought
surplus East German ammunition. This writer had acquired an old East German
technical manual that showed the exact chemical composition of the
propellant charges in their bullets. It included a warning that after 5
years, the charges could chemically degrade and become subject to misfires
or dud rounds, a useful thing to know about if you happen to be holding
some of said ammunition, certainly. There are also quite a lot of messages
on rec.guns on the best legal way to buy a gun online (decidedly not the
procedure followed by Z and many others).

But rec.guns is also a marketplace: long banana clip magazines (usually
30-40 shot magazines for semiautomatic rifles that were banned under the
Assault Rifle ban; of course, all these are advertised as being
manufactured "pre-ban"), speed loaders to load all of the cylinders of a
revolver at once, equipment for hand-loading one's own ammunition, and, of
course, guns: revolvers, semiautomatic pistols, rifles, shotguns, and
others. One night while writing this article I saw a Galil for sale. The
Galil is an Israeli-made assault rifle, rated as one of the best in the
world. On an earlier visit I saw an ad for quantities of Dragunovs. The
Dragunov was the standard issue sniper rifle for the Red Army. In the hands
of a sharpshooter, such a gun can be accurate to within inches at ranges
out to 2/3 of a mile. And given the present state of the economy in Russia,
we are likely to see more, not less, of any of the standard Russian
weapons, Dragunovs and others.

It might seem that the contents of rec.guns alone could be easily monitored
for illegal transactions. However, my sources have shown me that with the
availability of anonymous remailers and several sources of digital cash, it
is increasingly possible for seller and buyer to never know who the other
party is or where they are.

That becomes even more of a concern on the World Wide Web, where, just as
all other forms of advocacy and commerce are flourishing, so are firearms
advocacy and sales. The NRA is online; everyone knows their position. At
Sniper Country/Extreme Shooting Sports, the motto is "happiness is a
confirmed kill," and you can learn all about famous and infamous snipers.
At Shootin' Stuff you can read comparisons of handguns for home or self
defense use, including the Makarov 9mm, the sidearm once issued only to
officers in the Red Army. You can even download images of slugs being fired
from a stationary rifle held in a vise.

If this puts you in a buying mood, you can travel over to Stokes's Firearms
Enthusiasts' Web Magazine, where a graphic of a silenced submachine gun
greets you. When I first went to this site earlier this year, it was open
and anyone could peruse the ads and offerings; now, however, a password is
required.

For those who lack patience or don't want yet another net password, there
are sites that offer immediate access to their ads. The Champion Firearms
Home Page, Guncraft Sports Web Pages, and the Electronic Gun Shop are all
open for business now. They offer, variously, revolvers, semiautomatic
pistols, rifles, and shotguns. It must be emphasized that there is nothing
illegal about any online gun commerce; there are existing laws and
regulations that do cover the situation. But when UPS, however unknowingly,
delivers 9mm pistols, it is clear that ignoring the existing rules is
accomplished rather easily online, a point that applies for any other sort
of online commerce, whether presently regulated by law or not.
...

--end excerpt---










From zooko at xs4all.nl  Thu Nov 13 09:57:16 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:57:16 +0800
Subject: John Young, stegonym
Message-ID: <199711131747.SAA14458@xs1.xs4all.nl>




Most pseudonym users cope with the possibility that Mallet
will hate what they say by ensuring that he can't figure out 
their True Name.  JY is the next step-- Mallet can't figure
out what he is saying, or if it is serious, so J remains safe.


Z

P.S.  Sorry to blow your cover, there, John...

P.P.S.  Of course "True Name" is a confusing, abused concept. 
There are three possible ideas-- (A): given a name "N", people
can map from N to your physical body, thus exposing you to the 
risk of extortion, assassination, etc., or (B): given an 
individual "I", people can find a name "M" such that they are 
sure I is the brain directly behind M.  Alternately, (C): given
a name "O" and a name "P", people can be sure that the brain 
directly behind O is not also the brain directly behind P.  
Both N and M and occasionally are sometimes thought of as "True
Names".  (B) and (C) can sometimes be desirable, but 
unfortunately most implementations of (B) and/or (C) imply (A).
(A) is never desirable.

P.P.P.S.  TCM is the opposite (regressive?)-- he goes out of 
his way to give a clear impression, to Mallet as well as to 
friends and strangers, that he is dangerous, violent, racist, 
homophobic, bigoted, emotionally disturbed, and irrational.  We
know better, but unfortunately not everyone is so perceptive.

P.P.P.P.S.  I know TCM likes discussing the True Name concepts
when he is in a good mood, but I hereby promise not to give him
the satisfaction of conversation until he writes 100 times on 
the blackboard "I am not a threat to myself, my neighbors, or 
the authorities.".







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 13 09:58:18 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:58:18 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102805b090df9980d5@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:42 AM -0700 11/13/97, Anonymous wrote:

>This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
>The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
>and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
>one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
>all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
>its leader.

If you don't like my views, use your filters.

Or set up Yet Another Personal List (like those set up by Perry, Lewis,
Declan, Bob, Nick, and others). Then you can exclude me from your YAPL. The
Cypherpunks list is, unlike these YAPLs, uncensored, unfiltered at the
source, and open to any and all subscribers.

I call em as I see em when it comes to our Japanese (in name, as he may
actually not be Japanese, given his "hotmail" account) who sends us his
"send me money I send you Misty code" crap.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Nov 13 10:07:21 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:07:21 +0800
Subject: NSAscape
Message-ID: <199711131759.SAA03444@basement.replay.com>




http://home.netscape.com/info/security-doc.html

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From attila at hun.org  Thu Nov 13 10:35:08 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:35:08 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v031107ccb08f6fe1522b@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <19971113.181249.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971112:1136, in <v031107ccb08f6fe1522b@[139.167.130.248]>, 
    Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>tcmay said:
>
>> And so on. Throughout history there have been those who spoke their mind.
>> And others who told them to cool it, to not anger the local prince, to not
>> rock the boat.

>No, Tim. Your analysis is too simple, here. My point is, all John Brown & Co.
>did was get shot up one afternoon in Harper's Ferry. They didn't help the cause
>of abolition one whit. Same goes for Gordon Call, or even Timothy McVeigh, and
>what they were trying to achieve.

    yeah, well, my old lady just told me that (having been born in
    in the same small town as John Brown) John Brown's younger sister
    was my great-great-great-grandmother...

    I guess that gives me the right to express the thought that 
    anybody pushed far enough into the corner will behave like
    any other cornered animal --and some of us will just react
    a little sooner... and a great deal nastier.

    I never picked a fight, but I have more than finished a few.

    remember:  revenge is best served up cold.

        attila out...

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Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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XoWyS17rwdLmai/NDjxYotbWwpmD4e+zuGprf65X/uDlnJoUfVZ6vw==
=dbWH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 13 10:39:17 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:39:17 +0800
Subject: Weapons on the Web, and mention of remailers
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b090db9f91b4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102807b090e75e5428@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:46 AM -0700 11/13/97, Tim May wrote:

>In view of the Paladin case, the Feinstein "bomb-making instructions ban,"
>and calls to shut down gun shows, this article may give some tips on coming
>actions. And the plans for the Federal Trade Commission and Food and Drug
>Administration to start cruising the Web looking for illegal speech also
>provides a clue.
>
>Personally, I'm beginning to think

This got sent before I finished this comment. Here's the rest:

Personally, I'm beginning to think that "regulation of commerce" will be a
major tool for controlling the Web and the Net in general. Under the
precedent that commercial speech is not as protected as, say, political
speech (*),

(* though even political speech is coming under pressure, as shown by
"campaign finance laws" which limit the speech rich people or corporations
may exercise in support of others or of causes)

we may seet "bots" patrolling cyberspace looking for mentions of contraband
items, looking for evidence of offerings of items for sale, and checking
for illegal claims, false advertising, etc.

Some of us, like me, are fairly open about our viewpoints, our lifestyles,
and our supplies of guns and other such things. In fact, I view my "up
frontness" as one of my best protections.

But others will fear that comments made in rec.guns, or rec.pyrotechnics,
or rec.woodworking (*), will generate unwelcome attention.

(* One longtime Cypherpunk received a visit from the FBI during the
Unabomber search. His interest in woodworking, and his subsriptions to
woodworking magazines, and his connections to the Berkeley math department,
all caused him to "fit the profile," it would seem. (Never mind that he was
in high school or earlier when the Unabomber started his bombings.))

Being "up front" is a lot easier than keeping a solid cover, watching every
post for slips, using digital pseudonyms religiously and without ever
slipping up or providing clues for correlation analysis. Your mileage may
vary, but I prefer to be out in the open about my views and (most of) my
activities.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Nov 13 10:46:51 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:46:51 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711131837.NAA19756@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da at anon.efga.org>, on 11/13/97 
   at 11:42 AM, Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> said:

>> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
>> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
>> >
>> 
>> It am developed.
>> 
>> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
>> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
>> 
>> Sayonara!
>> 
>> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
>> 
>> --Tim May

>This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the
>cypherpunks. The group is becoming just another militia front, identified
>with racism and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government
>agents, one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original
>purpose all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred
>flowing from its leader.

Leader?!? Leader what leader??? ROTFLMAO!!!!

If any group was absent of "leadership" this is it. Finding a leader of
anarchists is like trying to find truth in DC.

FWIW: ol' Harry should have droped a couple more *after* their surrender
for good measure.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Nov 13 11:31:41 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 03:31:41 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
Message-ID: <v0400273cb091012f0380@[139.167.130.248]>



At 11:23 am -0500 on 11/13/97, Tim May wrote:

> >:-). Actually, Tim, I don't think it's dangerous, at least to me
> >personally, and to anyone else on this list, for that matter. What I said
> >was, you're counterproductive to your own cause (you could become a poster
> >for statism, as I said before), and, if you continued to directly threaten
> >the lives of people who had the power to hurt you, in public, with direct
>
> You have now repeated this "Tim has directly threatened the life of a
> federal judge" charge several times.
>
> This is false.


Well, I certainly used two forms of the word 'direct', right there in black
and white, didn't I?

And, having just watched Nat Hentoff say on TV that a threat would be
something where you specified the time and place of some kind of violence
against a person, maybe your saying something like,

> But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I
> thought.
>
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.

was *not* a threat against a judge?

Right, Tim, if you say so.

I expect that, in the legal, Hentoff sense, it's not a threat. After all,
you didn't specify a date and time, and you didn't even say you,
personally, were going to do anything at all. However, it's probably more
than enough reason for someone with too may kevlar coats back in the office
closet to trump something up and force a confrontation with you, just like
they did with Bell. Well, no. Bell's arrest was just a byproduct of his
car's siezure, like they said in the papers, wasn't it?

Nonetheless, it's  well within conception that, since everyone's breaking
the law somehow, that something you're doing or have done would be used to
cause a percipitating event, which you yourself say you would respond to
with force.

Astoundingly, it also seems like you're *trying* to create a confrontation.
You seem to dare to them to do something so that you can meet them at the
door, Mossberg in hand. "Please don't throw me in that briar patch", in
other words. For instance, just last night, you said,

> And the rumors are mounting about a series of possible raids around the
> holidays this Thanksgiving Day. The FBI has acknowledge the fax sent out as
> legitimate.
>
> While militia members and Cypherpunks may not be able to withstand a full
> out war for very long, the mere willingness to defend oneself can itself
> act as a deterrent. This is basic game theory, basic strategy.

It sounds an awful lot like Fort Apache, Corrolitos, to me, Tim.

> You claim I am doing "the cause" a disservice.

Well, your "cause", whatever it is, certainly. I'm not sure, for instance,
that holing yourself up behind a steel-reinforced door with lots of fun
firepower is doing much for the spread of strong cryptography, I'll grant
you that...

> I claim you are spreading
> misinformation and trumping up a charge which you must hope is being read
> by the Feds.

Right. And when Thanksgiving day comes, Tim, and the no-knock doesn't
happen, or, even more interesting, nothing happens anywhere on Thanksgiving
day, what are you going to say about my "misinformation" attack, then? That
it "failed"?

Remarkable. You win no matter what, right? Prove to me that there is no
conspiracy? Or flying saucers, or whatever else?

:-).


Frankly, Tim, I don't think the Feds really care about you, or anything
you've done, to date. Or at least they wouldn't, if you weren't, like the
forest knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, daring them to hack off
another limb all the time.

It seems to me that, before this little interchange we've been in, where
someone finally stood up and said that the emperor had no clothes (at least
as far as kevlar outerware and the global conspiracy to destroy the
American Way is concerned) you would have continued to try to bait the
federales, imaginary or not, with inflamatory trolls like those above,
apparently in the hope that you could force a showdown with them.

Hell, maybe you'll actually make it happen, someday. I guess I won't be
surprised when it does. Or particularly care, even, given your vitriolic
reception the mirror in your face.

> You sicken me.

Um, well... Take a pill, maybe?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Nov 13 11:42:54 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 03:42:54 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971113192235.00c03744@pop.pipeline.com>



Anonymous of EFGA wrote:

>This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
>The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
>and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
>one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
>all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
>its leader.

Wait a minute, that list is way too short. This list is far more diversely
mean-spirited, and venomously hilarious, than that. It offers a lot more 
hatred and humor than you give credit for, or maybe can enjoy.

All praise to Tim, beloved mad as hell assassin, he's one of the sharpest 
killer humorists-satirists here, call's the jokes and the buffoons as he sees 
them, insults hot shot leaders and fawning beggars indiscriminately.
Hate and love on both Glocks.

Check the anarchives: Tim's no leader, says it often, proves it more so
by destroying anyone who pretends to be, scares off anyone who tries 
to suck up to him for protection, and promises to kill (filter) the
bloodsuckers 
if they send PGPed tips. Kill them with ridicule for not thinking for 
themselves, paying their own way, lapping others' blood and brains. If 
that doesn't work he tells a public joke about their overtures. Then the 
anon shits fly.

Is he not these very days razzing the big iron folks, taunting the tank
in Tienamen Square? We'll yet see some anon turds for this, too,
maybe yours is one.

Some have weird sense of playfulness, cut your throat to see you flop.
Call you a leader, a bullseye target.

Hettinga, helluva beloved Bob, another bleeding edge satirist, self-flagellator
for philo-fun and E$, this is adose of clap also for your exemplary rant of a
schtick of a buffoonery of a calling them as you deadeyedly see them
miraging the desert of Maine.







From rwright at adnetsol.com  Thu Nov 13 11:54:49 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 03:54:49 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!
Message-ID: <199711131942.LAA29385@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>



------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:45:16 -0800 (PST)
From:          gregruggiero at earthlink.net (Greg Ruggiero)
Subject:       Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!

Friends,

This should raise the hopes of all microbroadcasters.  We, who oppose
the barriers against free communications and the corporate takeover of
our media institutions, need to do all we can to ensure that the
airwaves really become free.

Support your local alternative media.

 Howard Rosenfeld

----------------------------------------------

ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FREE RADIO BERKELEY & MICROPOWER BROADCASTING

At 7 PM on Thursday, [ed: correction - Wednesday] November 12
attorneys for Stephen Dunifer & Free Radio Berkeley received a 14 page
decision via fax from Federal District Court Judge Claudia Wilken
announcing her ruling in favor of Stephen Dunifer and Free Radio
Berkeley. Her ruling denies the FCC's motion for summary judgement for
a permanent injunction, states that she has jurisdiction in this case
and that the FCC's regulatory structure is unconstitutional. Further,
she orders the FCC to submit within 14 days a brief on the
constitutional issues raised. Essentially Judge Claudia Wilken affirms
all the merits and arguments raised by the defense attorneys for
Stephen Dunifer and Free Radio Berkeley. Stay tuned for further
details. The full text of the decision will be posted ASAP. A victory
party will take place on Saturday evening, November 15 in Berkeley.
Place to be announced as soon as one is secured. Everyone is invited.

Stephen Dunifer
Free Radio Berkeley

*******************************************************************

                                              NEW YORK
Media for Change         <<< FREE MEDIA >>>     Changing the Media
                                               ALLIANCE

                              listserve: nyfreemedia at tao.ca
                                voicemail: (212) 969-TOFM
              website: http://artcon.rutgers.edu/papertiger/nyfma

*******************************************************************








=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://ross.adnetsol.com
Voice: (408) 259-2795






From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Nov 13 12:38:57 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:38:57 +0800
Subject: NSAscape
In-Reply-To: <199711131759.SAA03444@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711132029.PAA20859@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711131759.SAA03444 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/13/97 
   at 06:59 PM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>NETSCAPE PRODUCTS WITH FORTEZZA 

Anyone who thinks that N$ is on "our" side of the crypto/privacy issues
has not been paying any attention to their products and policies over the
past years.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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n1bpZY8y3iA=
=eBkJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Nov 13 12:39:15 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:39:15 +0800
Subject: The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb091012f0380@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199711132026.PAA20827@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.





- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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JAZyZz/ryWRCddlnsfpV9SKNoa1L5mbHOE9uG3z+yprFIYPYVoxItire9FoUEH4a
xOcYDyGevG8=
=Iad9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From declan at well.com  Thu Nov 13 12:44:27 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:44:27 +0800
Subject: "Son of CDA" Ignores Supreme Court Ruling, ACLU Says
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971113121510.9215A-100000@well.com>





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:40:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Emilyaclu at aol.com
To: Emilyaclu at aol.com
Subject: "Son of CDA" Ignores Supreme Court Ruling, ACLU Says

                                ACLU Says New Internet Censorship Statute 
                                       Ignores Landmark Supreme Court Ruling

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Thursday, November 13, 1997
Contact: Emily Whitfield, (212) 549-2566

WASHINGTON--New legislation  aimed at banning online material deemed "harmful
to minors" would run roughshod over the landmark Supreme Court decision
affirming free speech on the Internet, the American Civil Liberties Union
said today.

The ACLU, which led the successful battle to defeat the unconstitutional
Communications Decency Act (CDA), said S. 1482, like the CDA, would restrict
adults from accessing constitutionally protected speech.  The bill was
introduced earlier this week by Sen. Dan Coats, R-IN, an original sponsor of
the ill-fated CDA.

Under the statute, commercial online distributors of material deemed "harmful
to minors" could be punished with up to six months in jail and a $50,000
fine.  The definition could include the virtual bookstore amazon.com or a
promotional site for a Hollywood movie, as well as Internet Service Providers
(ISPs) such as Microsoft and America Online, the ACLU said.  And unlike the
CDA, the statute applies only to web sites, not to chat rooms, e-mail or news
groups.

"By claiming that the bill addresses only web sites involved in commercial
distribution, Senator Coats says he is �hunting with a rifle,' but in fact,
he has lobbed another virtual grenade into the heart of the Internet" said
Ann Beeson, an ACLU National Staff Attorney and member of the legal team that
defeated the CDA. 

Any business merely displaying material without first requiring a credit card
or other proof of age could be found liable under the statute, which
criminalizes commercial distribution of words or images that could be deemed
"harmful to minors," even if no actual sale is involved, Beeson said.

"This is the equivalent of having to pay a fee every time you want to browse
in the bookstore or watch a trailer for an R-rated  movie," Beeson said.  "As
the Supreme Court noted in its landmark decision,  requiring a credit card or
other age verification would impose a severe financial and logistical burden,
even on commercial websites."

The ACLU said there were serious constitutional problems as well with the
bill's definition of "harmful to minors."  In addition to using a vague
definition of what constitutes "harmful material,"  the bill does not make
any distinction between material that may be harmful to a six-year-old but
valuable for a 16-year-old, such as safer-sex information, said Chris Hansen,
an ACLU Senior Staff Attorney and member of the Reno v. ACLU legal team.  

Further, Hansen pointed out, unlike other "harmful to minors" statutes that
have been upheld in the courts, the bill does not define whose community
standard will be used to determine what material is harmful.  

"Invariably, those who decide what is harmful to a minor are going to be the
least tolerant members of a given community -- such as the group in Oklahoma
who sought to remove the award-winning film �The Tin Drum' from  local
libraries and video stores," Hansen said.

The Supreme Court's landmark decision striking down the CDA was issued on
June 26 of this year, 16 months after the law was enacted and the ACLU filed
its challenge.  In a ringing affirmation of online free speech, the Court
said that �the interest in encouraging freedom of expression in a democratic
society outweighs any theoretical but unproven benefit of censorship.'  

	"While we rejoiced in the Supreme Court's decision last June, we knew that
the battle was not yet over," said Solange Bitol, legislative counsel on
First Amendment issues for the ACLU's Washington National Office.  "When
Congress returns to session in the New Year, we will be ready for Round Two
in the battle to protect our free speech rights."
	
-endit-
	







From ksahin at best.com  Thu Nov 13 13:19:20 1997
From: ksahin at best.com (Koro)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:19:20 +0800
Subject: "Son of CDA" Ignores Supreme Court Ruling, ACLU Says
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971113121510.9215A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <346B6815.2F08@best.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Any business merely displaying material without first requiring a credit card
> or other proof of age could be found liable under the statute, which
> criminalizes commercial distribution of words or images that could be deemed
> "harmful to minors," even if no actual sale is involved, Beeson said.

A credit card passes for proof of age?  I had a credit card as soon as I
was old enough to drive (it made my father's job of family accounting
easier when all of the gas payments showed up on the credit card bill)
at age 16.

A larger problem I see with credit cards being used as a form of ID is
that it may become comon practice to ask for name and credit card number
at the enterance to every contravercial site.  If so, people will begin
to abuse the system, as it is a very simple matter to start logging all
names, credit card numbers, and expiration dates of people who enter
your site, and then make charges to their credit cards.
-- 
					KORO






From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 13 13:29:19 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:29:19 +0800
Subject: CDT: The Recycling / Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b0902b2616d6@[204.254.21.105]>
Message-ID: <346B6B43.487@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Jonah,
> Contrary to what you claim, I'm not "trying to accomplish" anything except
> report the facts.
... 
> Then CDT responded to my article publicly, incorrectly claiming that CDT
> did not embrace the harmful to minors "compromise." My post was to correct
> those inaccuracies and clear the air -- and, you'll remember I concluded by
> saying I hoped we could move forward to discussing Coats. You seem unable
> -- or unwilling -- to do that.

  Has anyone noticed that the cycles of CDT intrusions into the
CypherPunks list occurs with about the same frequency as the phone
calls from the aluminum siding salesmen who call us in their search
for old people with huddled life savings, struggling to be free?
  The underlying concept is the same. Once they stretch their scam
a little too far, and get run out of town, the perpetrators move on
to fresh territory. When they run out of new areas to run their scam,
then they begin re-working old territory, starting with the areas
where their targets are likely to have forgotten the details of their
last scam.
  CDT should take a lesson from the aluminum siding salesmen, and 
change their name when they start a fresh round of scamming. 
 ("No ma''m, we're the CD'T&A'. No connection to those scumbag, lying
ratfuckers that suck the dicks of the Fascist powermongers. No...that 
was _another_ Jonah Seiger. I am trying to atone for his sins against 
my name by offering you a special deal on a revolutionary new product
called VaporSiding."

  Right...
  What list subscribers need to understand is that the CDT recognizes
the need to compromise on important issues, so that 'reasonable' people
like themselves are not unjustly linked with terrorists like Tim May,
who threaten the lives of judges four or five times a day.
 (Which we know, because Little Bobby Hettinga has been pointing his
  finger at Tim eighty times per post, reminding us of Tim's death
  threats against the OKC bombing judge, who Tim plans to slaughter
  at 4 p.m. next Thursday.)

  Tim May, JUDGE KILLER, sent a post to the list that quoted the
passage that Louis F. Hettinga has been misrepresenting, only to
have LFH and other list members (some of who should know better)
continue to recycle/respond-to this misrepresentation of CONVICTED
JUDGE MURDERER Tim May's words.
  Naturally, 'reasonable' organizations, such as the CDT, will need
to distance themselves from CONVICTED JUDGE MURDERERS AND RAPISTS
like Tim May, in order to get at the life savings of increasingly
senile supporters, and be listened to seriously by those with whom
they are seeking to compromise our freedom and privacy as a good-
faith gesture to those who would frown on the CDT supporting those
freedoms and privacies for even CONVICTED JUDGE MURDERING, RAPIST
PEDOPHILE, DRUG-DEALING TERRORISTS such as Tim May.

  My respose to the CDT is thus: "Beat it, guys. The Electronic Fraud
Foundation is working this side of the street. The Georgia Cracker
remailer operators tried cutting our action on this list, but they 
quickly found that you can't type with broken fingers."

TruthMonger
"It's not VaporSiding until *I* say it's VaporSiding!"







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Nov 13 13:33:56 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:33:56 +0800
Subject: [OB: CRYTO] Re: about RC4
Message-ID: <199711132115.WAA27662@basement.replay.com>



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> > (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

> Because they couldn't speak a non-native language perfectly?

  No...because they couldn't speak a 'Native' language perfectly.
Cherokee!

WagonBurner






From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 13 13:59:33 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:59:33 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <346B737A.1C58@dev.null>



Anonymous wrote: 
> > At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> > >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?

> > You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> > questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.

> > (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
> >
> > --Tim May
 
> This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.

  Hey, pal. If you're going to attack Tim May on this list, you'd better
be ready to back it up with some ASCII Art graphics.

> The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> and white supremacy

  I tried to tell my fellow CypherPunks that it was a mistake to 
include that racist, white supremacist cypherpunks-j list in with 
the other CDR lists, but they still let those slant-eyed white
supremacists join our Mary band, skirts and all.

> applauding violent murder of government agents

  As opposed to promoting the wearing of "Shoot Me First!" T-shirts
to bed, in support of no-knock, black-clad government Ninja's?

> one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  

  You must have had your hands over your ears if you missed the
cheering, whistling, hooting and cat-calls by _some_ of the
list subscribers over the OKC wake-up call issued by some unknown
person, in response to the government slaughter of men, women and
children at Waco.

> Its original purpose all but forgotten, 

  I believe that the original purpose of the list was to piss off
people such as yourself. I imagine that individual list subscribers
all have their own concept of what the "original purpose" of the
list was, even if they only subscribed yesterday, like yourself.

> the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from its leader.

  Sure, change the subject and attack _me_, now! (Did I forget to
announce the results of the vote taken last night at the Coal Dust
Saloon in Bienfait, Saskatchewan?)

EgoisticPretentiousSelfPromotingAssholeMonger






From declan at well.com  Thu Nov 13 14:05:20 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:05:20 +0800
Subject: Microsoft World 1.0 from the Netly News (and a funny response)
Message-ID: <v03007805b091246a302e@[168.161.105.216]>



*********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1576,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
November 13, 1997

Microsoft World 1.0
by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

        If you're Bill Gates, the last place on earth you want to be
   today is 2500 Calvert St., Washington, D.C. That's the address of the
   "Appraising Microsoft" conference, where politicos and high tech
   leaders from around the country are teaming up to take a big swing at
   the richest man in America.

        It would be a slugfest -- if only Gates were around to defend
   himself. Ralph Nader, the conference's organizer, invited him, but
   Gates declined through his lawyers. "It appears that your conference
   will provide a forum for anti-Microsoft pundits and business
   competitors to raise their litany of tired allegations in an attempt
   to manipulate public opinion against our company," wrote attorney
   William Neukom, who is defending Microsoft from antitrust allegations.

        Which is only natural. Everyone Microsoft has ever pissed off
   (and Microsoft has pissed off a lot of people) seems to be here today.
   Who would pass up a chance to flame the Boy Billionaire -- especially
   when there's safety in numbers?

[...]

***********

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:27:41 -0500
To: declan at pathfinder.com
From: Steve Kremer <steve at jokewallpaper.com>
Subject: Ralph Nader's Computer?

I enjoyed your story about the conference.  When I first heard about it I
had a question to ask Ralph for my monthly humor newsletter...So I called
his office.  Here's the item..

Have Fun,
Steve Kremer

JAMES SPADER, DARTH VADER, RALPH NADER. WHICH OF THESE THREE
OWN A COMPUTER??

In the month of November you will be hearing a lot about a media event called
the "Appraising Microsoft Conference" held in Washington, D.C. and hosted
by consumer gadfly Ralph Nader.  If you visit their Web site at:

http://www.essential.org/appraising/microsoft/

you can read about their plans to discuss Microsoft. They profess
high intentions of seriously discussing Microsoft's influence on the future,
but it looks to me like a "trash Microsoft festival".  Not that
Microsoft doesn't deserve to be trashed, but I thought the Nader folks
and their "conference" was utterly transparent.  I began to wonder...just
how much does Ralph Nader know about computers and the World Wide Web.  On
their
Web site they list their phone number and the name of their media contact
Caroline Jonah.  Armed with my trusty Sony integrated phone/recorder I gave
her a
call.  Below is a transcript of a portion of our conversation.

Steve Kremer:
"Do you happen to know what computer system Ralph Nader uses.
Is he a Windows or Mac guy?"

Caroline Jonah:
"Umm, I don't think, let me think, he doesn't even have a computer
in his office to tell you the truth."

Steve Kremer:
"Oh really, he isn't one of those laptop toting people?

Caroline Jonah:
"In our office we have both, we use both, yeah."

Steve Kremer:
"O.K., so Mr. Nader doesn't even have a computer?"

Caroline Jonah:
"We have both in our office, so he can use either one, so. But in his
office, I don't think he even has one in his office."

I asked if she had actually ever seen Ralph using a computer and she said
I would have to talk to him directly. She promised that she would have Mr.
Nader give me a call later that day.  He never called.

So when you read the inevitable story coming out of Washington D.C. in the
middle of the month about Consumer Crusader Ralph Nader taking Microsoft
to task, remember it's being headlined by someone who has probably never had
their hand on a mouse except maybe to take a dead one out of an
OSHA approved trap.








From lh at dev.null  Thu Nov 13 14:21:16 1997
From: lh at dev.null (Lobelt Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:21:16 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <346B7B5D.2CAF@dev.null>



Anonymous wrote: 
> > At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> > >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?

> > It am developed.

> The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents

I *rove* this rist!

Banzai,
  Lolbelt






From nobody at neva.org  Thu Nov 13 14:23:44 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:23:44 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711132215.QAA07760@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:45 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Monty wrote:
>> As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
>> freedom itself."
>
>The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
>absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
>independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

Physician heal thyself!  Much of your discussion consists of ad
hominem attacks with little content such as the paragraph quoted
above.

The Foucault discussion quoted is worth reading.  Unfortunately, it's
been a long time and I cannot provide a reference.

At any rate, the upshot of his argument was that there are often
attempts to ensure freedom, but in reality it can only be assured
through its exercise.

He gave the example of a building in France which was designed to make
people feel free.  Instead of winding little corridors and small rooms
where people would be locked away, it had a large open courtyard and
it was designed so that when you entered the building, everybody could
see you and you could see them.

Foucault argued that in the context of people who are free, this
building would have the intended effect.  In the context of a fearful
and oppressive society, the effect would be quite the opposite.
Everybody would feel that they were being watched all the time.

>> Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are lost."
>
>True enough, but it doesn't follow from your Foucault quote very
>much.  Besides, I'd rather say "because it can be done, it will be
>done."  Especially if it's better.

If Tim believes that a judge has committed a capital crime, I want to
hear about it.  If Tim and others fail to exercise their right to say
what they believe, then it is likely those rights will be suspended in
due time.

>So, by the same token, I would also say that if you're going to
>threaten a federal judge with death on a public email list, it might
>behoove you to use a nym and a remailer. Like you do, Monty. Using a
>nym and a remailer, I mean, not threatening a federal judge. :-).

It seems to me that Tim said "The judge in the Paladin case committed
a capital crime" and not "The judge in the Paladin case committed a
capital crime and should be gunned down in the streets like a dog."

Tim is a good writer.  If he meant the latter I am sure he would have
written the latter.  If anything, the term "capital crime" suggests a
legal proceeding.

Personally, I don't consider violation of oath of office a capital
crime.  But, the judge should be fired.  He clearly isn't taking the
Constitution very seriously.

>> Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
>> does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
>> hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
>> credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.
>
>Yes. Fine. Tim has courage. God bless him. Hope he enjoys his
>firefight.

I don't understand why you keep insulting Tim.  Your first post was
insulting and comments like these are likewise insulting.

>> I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which
>> operated in the 1790s from Philadelphia.
>
>Yes. I read it too, when it came out. Franklin was my favorite
>patriot.  Aurora was founded by his grandson(?), if I remember. The
>one who went with Franklin to Paris, as a kid, right?

The book I am reading is called "The Aurora: A Democratic-Republican
Returns" by Richard N. Rosenfeld.

>> It made itself very unpopular with
>> Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country".  It
>> made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than
>> respectful, but astute, observations.
>
>Right. And then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition laws. And then
>the Supreme court took him out. Game over.

We must be reading different books.  The Supreme Court did nothing
while the Executive Branch ran rampant.  My guess is that the members
of the Court identified with the political faction represented by the
Adams administration.  Incidentally, it has only been during the 20th
century that the Court has protected the Bill of Rights in any
significant way.

After the editor of "The Aurora" was publicly beaten by Federal
troops, citizens of Philadelphia formed an armed militia and stood
guard outside the offices of the newspaper.  That's why it wasn't
suppressed.

Here's an example of what was going on (pp: 526-527):
> In the midst of this campaign [for the House of Representatives],
> the federal government indicted Matthew Lyon for sedition (October
> 5), arrested him (October 6), tried him without legal representation
> (October 8), fined him $1,000, and sentenced him to four months in
> prison (starting October 9).  His "seditious libel" was the claim
> that President John Adams has demonstrated "a continual grasp for
> power" and an "unbounded thirst for ridiculous pomp, foolish
> adulation, or selfish avarice," &c.  Today, Vermont Congressional
> Congressman Matthew Lyon is in jail."

The Alien and Sedition Acts had a built in expiration period at the
end of Adams's term so that they couldn't be used against the party
that passed them.  They also did not apply to speech against the Vice
President, Thomas Jefferson, who did not belong to the Adams faction.

When Jefferson was elected he pardoned everybody who was tried under
these acts.

Abigail Adams apparently wrote him about these pardonings.  She had
been quite enthused about the suppression of free speech in the United
States and was upset that people who insulted her husband, in her
view, would be allowed to go unpunished.  Jefferson's reply (page
902):
> I discharged every person under punishment or prosecution under the
> Sedition law, because I considered and now consider that law to be a
> nullity as absolute and as palpable as if Congress had ordered us to
> fall down and worship a golden image... [The discharge] was
> accordingly done in every instance without asking what the offenders
> had done or against whom they had offended but whether the pains
> they were suffering were inflicted under the pretended sedition law.
> It was certainly possible that my motives... might have been to
> protect, encourage, and reward slander; but they may also have
> been... to protect the Constitution violated by an unauthorized act
> of Congress.  Which of these were my motives must be decided by a
> regard to the general tenor of my life.  On this I am not afraid to
> appeal to the nation at large, to posterity, and still less to that
> Being who sees himself our motives, who will judge us from his own
> knowledge of them, and not on the testimony of Porcupine or Fenno.

The Constitutional mechanisms to preserve liberty all failed, except
for the election of 1800.

>> If they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
>> wouldn't have to be censored.
>
>Hogwash. What the conventional wisdom held, back in the 1790's, was a
>bunch of neoaristocratic justifications for the devine rights of the
>state, reminiscent of the devine rights of kings, and that George
>Washington, as the victor of the revolutionary war, deserved as much
>power as he wanted.

Abigail Adams (page 84):
> Bache [editor of the "Aurora"] has the malice & falsehood of
> Satin... But the wretched will provoke to measures which will
> silence them e'er long.  An abused and insulted publick cannot
> tollerate them much longer.  In short they are so criminal that they
> ought to be Presented by the grand jurors.

>Fortunately, a certain "nym" named Publius advocated the separation
>of powers in the constitution, which created a supreme court, which
>used Jefferson's Bill of Rights to shut all that crap down before it
>went too far, modulo a little jail time for those who crash-tested
>the idea.

1. Publius was John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison.  Jay
and Hamilton were leaders of the party attempting to subvert the
Constitution.

2. The Federalist version of the Constitution was intended to have
aristocratic elements - the Senate and the President.  Adams even
suggested privately that the Senators should have life long terms and
that Senate seats should be hereditary.

3. The separation of powers failed completely during the Adams
administration.  The Federalists had control of the Congress, the
Executive Branch, and, I suspect, the Supreme Court.

4. The rights and freedoms of Americans were protected only by the
fact that the voters threw the bastards out.  Something to keep in
mind when people tell us that the voters are less trustworthy than
career politicans.

5. The Supreme Court did nothing.

6. Jefferson did not write the Bill of Rights.  He was in France at
the time and was pleased to hear these amendments had been added to
the Constitution.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From Georg.Uphoff at uni-konstanz.de  Thu Nov 13 14:24:09 1997
From: Georg.Uphoff at uni-konstanz.de (Georg Josef Uphoff)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:24:09 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Beta.32.19971113230903.00dd53b0@popserver.uni-konstanz.de>










From nobody at neva.org  Thu Nov 13 14:32:36 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:32:36 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711132216.QAA07981@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:45 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Monty wrote:
>> As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
>> freedom itself."
>
>The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
>absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
>independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

Physician heal thyself!  Much of your discussion consists of ad
hominem attacks with little content such as the paragraph quoted
above.

The Foucault discussion quoted is worth reading.  Unfortunately, it's
been a long time and I cannot provide a reference.

At any rate, the upshot of his argument was that there are often
attempts to ensure freedom, but in reality it can only be assured
through its exercise.

He gave the example of a building in France which was designed to make
people feel free.  Instead of winding little corridors and small rooms
where people would be locked away, it had a large open courtyard and
it was designed so that when you entered the building, everybody could
see you and you could see them.

Foucault argued that in the context of people who are free, this
building would have the intended effect.  In the context of a fearful
and oppressive society, the effect would be quite the opposite.
Everybody would feel that they were being watched all the time.

>> Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are lost."
>
>True enough, but it doesn't follow from your Foucault quote very
>much.  Besides, I'd rather say "because it can be done, it will be
>done."  Especially if it's better.

If Tim believes that a judge has committed a capital crime, I want to
hear about it.  If Tim and others fail to exercise their right to say
what they believe, then it is likely those rights will be suspended in
due time.

>So, by the same token, I would also say that if you're going to
>threaten a federal judge with death on a public email list, it might
>behoove you to use a nym and a remailer. Like you do, Monty. Using a
>nym and a remailer, I mean, not threatening a federal judge. :-).

It seems to me that Tim said "The judge in the Paladin case committed
a capital crime" and not "The judge in the Paladin case committed a
capital crime and should be gunned down in the streets like a dog."

Tim is a good writer.  If he meant the latter I am sure he would have
written the latter.  If anything, the term "capital crime" suggests a
legal proceeding.

Personally, I don't consider violation of oath of office a capital
crime.  But, the judge should be fired.  He clearly isn't taking the
Constitution very seriously.

>> Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
>> does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
>> hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
>> credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.
>
>Yes. Fine. Tim has courage. God bless him. Hope he enjoys his
>firefight.

I don't understand why you keep insulting Tim.  Your first post was
insulting and comments like these are likewise insulting.

>> I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which
>> operated in the 1790s from Philadelphia.
>
>Yes. I read it too, when it came out. Franklin was my favorite
>patriot.  Aurora was founded by his grandson(?), if I remember. The
>one who went with Franklin to Paris, as a kid, right?

The book I am reading is called "The Aurora: A Democratic-Republican
Returns" by Richard N. Rosenfeld.

>> It made itself very unpopular with
>> Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country".  It
>> made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than
>> respectful, but astute, observations.
>
>Right. And then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition laws. And then
>the Supreme court took him out. Game over.

We must be reading different books.  The Supreme Court did nothing
while the Executive Branch ran rampant.  My guess is that the members
of the Court identified with the political faction represented by the
Adams administration.  Incidentally, it has only been during the 20th
century that the Court has protected the Bill of Rights in any
significant way.

After the editor of "The Aurora" was publicly beaten by Federal
troops, citizens of Philadelphia formed an armed militia and stood
guard outside the offices of the newspaper.  That's why it wasn't
suppressed.

Here's an example of what was going on (pp: 526-527):
> In the midst of this campaign [for the House of Representatives],
> the federal government indicted Matthew Lyon for sedition (October
> 5), arrested him (October 6), tried him without legal representation
> (October 8), fined him $1,000, and sentenced him to four months in
> prison (starting October 9).  His "seditious libel" was the claim
> that President John Adams has demonstrated "a continual grasp for
> power" and an "unbounded thirst for ridiculous pomp, foolish
> adulation, or selfish avarice," &c.  Today, Vermont Congressional
> Congressman Matthew Lyon is in jail."

The Alien and Sedition Acts had a built in expiration period at the
end of Adams's term so that they couldn't be used against the party
that passed them.  They also did not apply to speech against the Vice
President, Thomas Jefferson, who did not belong to the Adams faction.

When Jefferson was elected he pardoned everybody who was tried under
these acts.

Abigail Adams apparently wrote him about these pardonings.  She had
been quite enthused about the suppression of free speech in the United
States and was upset that people who insulted her husband, in her
view, would be allowed to go unpunished.  Jefferson's reply (page
902):
> I discharged every person under punishment or prosecution under the
> Sedition law, because I considered and now consider that law to be a
> nullity as absolute and as palpable as if Congress had ordered us to
> fall down and worship a golden image... [The discharge] was
> accordingly done in every instance without asking what the offenders
> had done or against whom they had offended but whether the pains
> they were suffering were inflicted under the pretended sedition law.
> It was certainly possible that my motives... might have been to
> protect, encourage, and reward slander; but they may also have
> been... to protect the Constitution violated by an unauthorized act
> of Congress.  Which of these were my motives must be decided by a
> regard to the general tenor of my life.  On this I am not afraid to
> appeal to the nation at large, to posterity, and still less to that
> Being who sees himself our motives, who will judge us from his own
> knowledge of them, and not on the testimony of Porcupine or Fenno.

The Constitutional mechanisms to preserve liberty all failed, except
for the election of 1800.

>> If they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
>> wouldn't have to be censored.
>
>Hogwash. What the conventional wisdom held, back in the 1790's, was a
>bunch of neoaristocratic justifications for the devine rights of the
>state, reminiscent of the devine rights of kings, and that George
>Washington, as the victor of the revolutionary war, deserved as much
>power as he wanted.

Abigail Adams (page 84):
> Bache [editor of the "Aurora"] has the malice & falsehood of
> Satin... But the wretched will provoke to measures which will
> silence them e'er long.  An abused and insulted publick cannot
> tollerate them much longer.  In short they are so criminal that they
> ought to be Presented by the grand jurors.

>Fortunately, a certain "nym" named Publius advocated the separation
>of powers in the constitution, which created a supreme court, which
>used Jefferson's Bill of Rights to shut all that crap down before it
>went too far, modulo a little jail time for those who crash-tested
>the idea.

1. Publius was John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison.  Jay
and Hamilton were leaders of the party attempting to subvert the
Constitution.

2. The Federalist version of the Constitution was intended to have
aristocratic elements - the Senate and the President.  Adams even
suggested privately that the Senators should have life long terms and
that Senate seats should be hereditary.

3. The separation of powers failed completely during the Adams
administration.  The Federalists had control of the Congress, the
Executive Branch, and, I suspect, the Supreme Court.

4. The rights and freedoms of Americans were protected only by the
fact that the voters threw the bastards out.  Something to keep in
mind when people tell us that the voters are less trustworthy than
career politicans.

5. The Supreme Court did nothing.

6. Jefferson did not write the Bill of Rights.  He was in France at
the time and was pleased to hear these amendments had been added to
the Constitution.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Thu Nov 13 14:35:20 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:35:20 +0800
Subject: FC: CEI says Nader's anti-Microsoft campaign hurts consumers (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971113171623.1207J-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:50:45 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: CEI says Nader's anti-Microsoft campaign hurts consumers

[CEI (http://www.cei.org/) is a free-market nonpartisan think tank here in
Washington, DC. --Declan]

*******

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:11:36 -0500
From: Emily McGee <emcgee at cei.org>
To: "'declan at well.com'" <declan at well.com>
Subject: Posting for fc


Competitive Enterprise Institute
For Immediate Release
Contact: Wayne Crews CEI (202) 331-1010

Ralph Nader's Anti-Microsoft Campaign Hurts Consumers

WASHINGTON, DC, November 12 , 1997 - The Competitive
Enterprise Institute (CEI) suspects that Ralph Nader
does not speak for all consumers in his current
crusade against Microsoft.

Nader is hosting a November 13-14 conference in
Washington, D.C entitled "Appraising Microsoft and Its
Global Strategy."  Designed to elicit public support
for federal antitrust action against the company's
expansion of computer services, "Appraising Microsoft"
features speakers prominently drawn from the ranks of
Microsoft's rivals.

According to Nader and some competitors, Microsoft's
offering of its web browser free with the Windows 95
operating system is only the latest in the company's
long line of "offenses."  Yet consumers consistently
benefit when more and better features are added to
computers.  As noted in the Washington Post, the
computing power of today's $2,800 "Wintel" would have
required a multi-million-dollar Cray supercomputer a
decade ago.  Indeed, "voting" with their mouse button,
consumers have voluntarily downloaded millions of
copies of Microsoft's new web browser.

"The Competitive Enterprise Institute hopes the media
covering 'Appraising Microsoft' will maintain a
healthy skepticism and explore who really gains if the
government substitutes its will for the free choices
of individuals in the marketplace," CEI fellow Wayne
Crews noted. "Antitrust authorities must guard against
Microsoft's rivals' efforts to 'compete' in court to
achieve what they couldn't by consumers' voluntary
consent.

"Ralph Nader's brand of 'consumer advocacy' is
confusing," Crews noted.  "When outside crusaders and
government forcibly limit consumers' free choices and
slam the brakes on a torrent of low-cost features,
they increase consumer prices and prop up
less-efficient competitors."  Crews continued, "This
is not pro-consumer behavior, it is merely
anti-Microsoft behavior."

"Consumers have spoken, and there is nothing amiss in
their having chosen an operating system standard that
some happen to despise," Crews concluded.  "Let's hope
Ralph Nader hears consumers more than the complaints
of competitive also-rans."

To address some of the common complaints against
Microsoft, CEI today also released the attached
two-pager "Five Myths About Microsoft."

CEI is a non-profit, non-partisan public policy group
dedicated to free markets and limited government.  For
more information contact Wayne Crews at 202-331-1010.

-30-


The Competitive Enterprise Institute's

Five Myths About Microsoft*

(Note: The following "myths" apply to many of today's
supposed examples of "lock-in" of allegedly
inefficient technologies.  Microsoft happens to be the
most prominently cited example of the phenomenon.)

Leveraging Windows to Dominate the Browser Market
Represents Unfair Competition: A popular myth today is
that a savvy company can routinely leverage a
"monopoly" in one product to force on consumers a
product that they do not want.  Companies lack this
ability.  Microsoft was unable to sell consumers on
its Microsoft Network rival to America Online -- even
though MSN had been "bundled" with the Windows 95
operating system.  Similarly, Microsoft Money still
lags behind Quicken.  And as Netscape learned the hard
way by bundling its Navigator browser with its
Communicator suite, and as Apple leaned by bundling
its entire computer with its operating system,
bundling products doesn't work unless consumers want
the bundling.  In any case, Netscape, not Microsoft,
dominates today's browser market, and retains every
opportunity to maintain dominance by satisfying
customers.  In a sense, browser competition could
hardly be more perfect: Because downloading Netscape's
Navigator or Microsoft's Internet Explorer is equally
simple, either firm will have to win on the basis of
superior features.

Microsoft Illegitimately Dominates Operating System
Software:  Microsoft's rivals tend to imply that
Microsoft's operating system is utterly impervious,
seemingly as if it dropped out of the sky unbidden.
Rather, rivalry among operating systems for desktop
dominance has been and still is intense.  Microsoft's
operating system dominance was not pre-ordained.
Nothing prevented Sun, whose UNIX operating system was
developed ten years before MS-DOS, from transferring
that technology to the early PC marketplace.  Nor did
anyone force Sun to wait until 1991 to finally
introduce a version for the Intel x86 platform.  No
one forced Apple back in 1984 to take the course it
chose in not licensing its operating system to others
as Microsoft did. There is nothing unseemly about one
competitor winning out over the others and setting a
standard.  That was the purpose of the nearly 20 years
of protracted battle, during which consumers made
their choice.

Microsoft is Illegitimately Monopolizing the Internet:
 Some claim Microsoft's proprietary knowledge and
policies on sharing information about its operating
system are oppressive and geared toward helping
Microsoft dominate the Internet with its own software.
 But on the other hand, it would appear that, while
application developers do depend upon Windows 95,
Microsoft in turn has a stake in nurturing developers'
success rather than in undermining them.  But for the
sake of argument, take the critics at their word: If
such dissatisfaction with Microsoft is indeed
universal, then the market is ripe for moving to a new
platform - just as we moved rapidly from vinyl records
to compact disks.  There's no need for government to
step in if a problem really exists: If Microsoft ($9
billion in 1996 revenues) were untrustworthy, nothing
prevents the formation of consortia between developers
and (for example) Compaq ($18 billion), Sun ($7
billion), and Apple ($8 billion) and others to offer
consumers their allegedly superior hardware and
software alternatives.  Indeed, competitors by their
own account already have another option.  Given their
glowing claims about the superiority of Sun's Java
programming language -- which allows programs to
execute in Netscape's browser on any operating system
-- competitors should simply issue applications
programs in Java format and be done with it.
Otherwise, consumers retain the right to deal
unobstructed with Microsoft to secure the services
that competitors cannot yet provide.  (Moreover,
nothing precludes the future creation of rival "Javas"
that work better.)  Longer term, particle physicist
Michio Kaku in his book Visions anticipates a future
of 1-cent microprocessors as plentiful as scrap paper,
a world where desktop computers will be only one among
myriad devices connected to the Internet.
Additionally, as engineers approach the physical
limits of silicon chips, revolutions in quantum
computing and DNA computing will change the
competitive landscape.  Microsoft has no obvious
advantage in such a world, though it should be free to
offer services there.

The Consent Decree with the Justice Department Should
Preclude Bundling a Web Browser With Windows: A
technical legal debate exists over whether the
bundling of Microsoft's browser is an allowed
enhancement to the Windows operating system, or
whether it is a disallowed "separate product."  One
problem with the claim that Internet Explorer is not
allowed under the consent decree is that the browser
was offered with Windows 95 at the outset.  But most
relevant, such arbitrary distinctions interest only
those with a stake in using government force to
overrule customers' free choices.  In a free market,
products must evolve and be "bundled" as consumer
demand and convenience requires.  Making artificial
distinctions between the retrieval of data on the hard
drive vs. on the Internet is counterproductive, unfair
and anti-consumer.  Prohibiting Microsoft's branching
out into the Internet artificially cripples the
company, just as did a former consent decree with
Sears prevent it from anchoring stores in shopping
malls.

Microsoft Borrows and Doesn't Innovate: Subjective
criticisms about whether a company is an innovator are
hardly grounds for police action and completely
irrelevant to an antitrust proceeding.  What matters
as far as free markets are concerned is the ability to
meet needs and market one's offering.  The history of
innovative business is one in which enterprising
businessmen and engineers take the scientists'
inventions out of the laboratory and make them
practical for consumers.  Thus innovation need not
equate with invention.  For example, Microsoft indeed
didn't invent MS-DOS -- its key operating system
during its early history -- but it purchased and owns
it.  Apple's graphical user interface, typically
regarded as having been copied by Microsoft, was
actually "borrowed" from Xerox PARC by both companies.
 Neither "innovated," strictly speaking.  Nonetheless,
it is disingenuous to argue that any company's ability
to anticipate consumer needs in positioning and
improving its operating system, word processing and
spreadsheet software reflects a lack of innovation.  A
better definition of innovation is one that includes a
company's ability to deliver new services cheaply and
efficiently to consumers.


# 	# 	#


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu.
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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Nov 13 14:41:32 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:41:32 +0800
Subject: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
Message-ID: <199711132225.XAA06230@basement.replay.com>



>Please forward to this coward that have no balls to put his real email
>address on his emails (I using you guys as he put CC to you guys in his
>letter, but by no means does this reffer to you).

Well, you don't like anonymity. No hope scoring points there.

>Dear CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL Idiot,

Well, that was an ad hominem attack against the poster of a bit of satire.

>4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
>around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

Learn to use message authentication. A company which claims to sell such
strong algorithms but doesn't employ message authentication makes one wonder.

>Maybe you really should try and develop some future encryption algorithm
>instead of mumbling with envy showing your stupidity and ignorance, But on
>the other hand you're probably not capable of - you're too narrow minded
>and busy sticking your long nose where it does not belong.

>Do us and you a favour, keep yourself in your pathetic hole and shut your
>mouth up.

Another ad hominem. You're on a roll.

>Thanks and worst regards,

No problem. Don't mention it.






From lh at dev.null  Thu Nov 13 15:09:59 1997
From: lh at dev.null (Lobelt Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:09:59 +0800
Subject: MicroStock -- the WoodStock of the 90's ? / Re: Microsoft World 1.0 from the Netly News (and a funny response)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b091246a302e@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <346B8495.5698@dev.null>



> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1576,00.html
> The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
> November 13, 1997
> Microsoft World 1.0
> by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
> 
>         If you're Bill Gates, the last place on earth you want to be
>    today is 2500 Calvert St., Washington, D.C. That's the address of the
>    "Appraising Microsoft" conference, where politicos and high tech
>    leaders from around the country are teaming up to take a big swing at
>    the richest man in America.

	GIVE ME A 'B'!		"BS!"
	GIVE ME AN 'I'!		"AYE!"
	GIVE ME AN 'L'!		"HELL!"
	GIVE ME AN 'L'!		"HELL!"

	WHAT'S THAT SPELL!	"GATES!"
	WHAT'S THAT SPELL!	"MICROSOFT!"
	WHAT'S THAT SPELL!	"NEW WINDOWS ORDERS!"

 "Well, come on all you big strong persons,
  Uncle Bill is really hurtin',
  Getting lynched in old DC,
  $weet Capital of Liberty,
    So put down Windows and roll in the muck,
    We're gonna yell 'MicroSoft Sucks!'"

 "And it's one, two three, what are we whining for?   
  Don't ask me, I don't give a shit,
  Next stop is JavaScript.
    And it's five, six, seven, open up on Billy Gates,
    Ain't got time to learn command-line,
    Whoppee, we're going to point-and-click!"

DC is a natural site for the WebWorld 1.0 conference, since it is 
obvious from the political rhetoric coming from that direction that
DC is where the _good_ drugs are.
What was the name of the conference, again? "Razing Micro$oft?"

CountryJoeAndTheMongers






From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 13 15:23:21 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:23:21 +0800
Subject: MicroStock -- The Album!
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b091246a302e@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <346B88C2.2742@dev.null>



----- Begin Included Message -----
From: zmelrose at wellsfargo.com
To: vivigomez at basisinc.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:02:45 -0800

(if Paul McCartney had been in systems..)

YESTERDAY
 ------------------
Yesterday,
All those backups seemed a waste of pay.
Now my database has gone away.
Oh I believe in yesterday.

Suddenly,
There's not half the files there used to be,
And there's a milestone hanging over me
The system crashed so suddenly.

I pushed something wrong
What it was I could not say.

Now all my data's gone
and I long for yesterday-ay-ay-ay.

Yesterday,
The need for back-ups seemed so far away.
I knew my data was all here to stay,
Now I believe in yesterday.

        ~~~~~~~
ELEANOR RIGBY
 --------------------------
Eleanor Rigby
Sits at the keyboard
And waits for a line on the screen
Lives in a dream
Waits for a signal
Finding some code
That will make the machine do some more.
What is it for?

All the lonely users, where do they all come from?
All the lonely users, why does it take so long?

Guru MacKenzie
Typing the lines of a program that no one will run;
Isn't it fun?
Look at him working,
Munching some chips as he waits for the code to compile;
It takes  a while...

All the lonely users, where do they all come from?
All the lonely users, why does it take so long?

Eleanor Rigby
Crashes the system and loses 6 hours of work;
Feels like a jerk.
Guru MacKenzie
Wiping the crumbs off the keys as he types in the code;
Nothing will load.

All the lonely users, where do they all come from?
All the lonely users, why does it take so long?

        ~~~~~~~

UNIX MAN (aka NOWHERE MAN)
 -------------------------------
He's a real UNIX Man
Sitting in his UNIX LAN
Making all his UNIX plans
For nobody.

Knows the blocksize from du(1)
Cares not where /dev/null goes to
Isn't he a bit like you
And me?

UNIX Man, please listen(2)
My lpd(8) is missin'
UNIX Man
The wo-o-o-orld is at(1) your command.

He's as wise as he can be
Uses lex and yacc and C
UNIX Man, can you help me At all?

UNIX Man, don't worry
Test with time(1), don't hurry
UNIX Man
The new kernel boots, just like you had planned.

He's a real UNIX Man
Sitting in his UNIX LAN
Making all his UNIX  plans For nobody ...
Making all his UNIX  plans For nobody.

        ~~~~~~~

WRITE IN C (aka LET IT BE)
 ------------------------
When I find my code in tons of trouble,
Friends and colleagues come to me,
Speaking words of wisdom:
"Write in C."
As the deadline fast approaches,
And bugs are all that I can see,
Somewhere, someone whispers:
"Write in C."
Write in C, Write in C,
Write in C, oh, Write in C.
LOGO's dead and buried,
Write in C.

I used to write a lot of FORTRAN,
For science it worked flawlessly.
Try using it for graphics!
Write in C.

If you've just spent nearly 30 hours,
Debugging some assembly,
Soon you will be glad to
Write in C.

Write in C, Write in C,
Write in C, yeah, Write in C.
BASIC's not the answer.
Write in C.

Write in C, Write in C
Write in C, oh, Write in C.
Pascal won't quite cut it.
Write in C.

        ~~~~~~~

SOMETHING
 -------------------
Something in the way it fails,
Defies the algorithm's logic.
Something in the way it coredumps...
I don't want to leave it now
I'll fix this problem somehow

Somewhere in the memory I know,
A pointer's got to be corrupted.
Stepping in the debugger will show me...
I don't want to leave it now
I'm too close to leave it now

You're asking me can this code go?
I don't know, I don't know...
What sequence causes it to blow?
I don't know, I don't know...

Something in the initializing code?
And all I have to do is think of it!
Something in the listing will show me...
I don't want to leave it now
I'll fix this tonight I vow..


----- End Included Message -----






From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Nov 13 15:43:32 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:43:32 +0800
Subject: NISSC97 Papers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971113233431.00c044d4@pop.pipeline.com>



The 113 collected papers of the 20th National Information Systems 
Security Conference, held October 7-10, 1997, in Baltimore, 
Maryland, USA, are available in PDF format in a compressed file: 

   http://csrc.nist.gov/nissc/1997/proceedings/nissc97.zip  (6.2MB)

Some subscribers here participated in the conference.

We offer an HTML version of the Table of Contents:

   http://jya.com/nissc97.htm (31K)






From ryan at michonline.com  Thu Nov 13 16:22:39 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:22:39 +0800
Subject: [OB: CRYTO] Re: about RC4
In-Reply-To: <199711132115.WAA27662@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971113185818.17808D-100000@king>



On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> > > (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
> 
> > Because they couldn't speak a non-native language perfectly?
> 
>   No...because they couldn't speak a 'Native' language perfectly.
> Cherokee!
> 

Navajo, if I understand what reference you're making. :-)  You are
referring to the practice of using Navajo Indians for much of the
top-secret communications during WWII, right?


Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From schear at lvdi.net  Thu Nov 13 17:17:09 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:17:09 +0800
Subject: Internet Casinos
Message-ID: <v03102804b091551631d5@[208.129.55.202]>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 10527 bytes
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From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Nov 13 18:57:55 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:57:55 +0800
Subject: TWA FLIGHT 800 (Subject matter - Terrorism)
Message-ID: <199711140249.VAA26185@users.invweb.net>



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>To: TERRORISM at mediccom.org
>From: "Malcolm R.Innerarity" <m.innera at pcps.edu>
>Subject: TWA FLIGHT 800 (Subject matter - Terrorism)
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>Status:   

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:23:33 -0800
From: ewolfe at involved.com (Ed Wolfe)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win95; I)

From: Ian Goddard <igoddard at netkonnect.net>
 

CNN said that my TWA 800 research was a "sham" and a "plot."

That is a lie. Here is one of my reports. All these referenced

items are accurate. Can you find any "sham" or "plot"? If not,

what does that tell us about CNN?  Spread this far and wide.

Please save this now historical report. Other reports may

be found here: http://www.copi.com/articles/Goddard

<smaller>


</smaller>

        ______________________________________

       (free to forward & copy  with attribute)

        --------------------------------------



      T W A   8 0 0   M I S S I L E   T H E O R Y


        -  S T R O N G E R   T H A N   E V E R



        (c) (07/17/97) Ian Williams Goddard


        One year after the pulverized remains of

        TWA Flight 800 plunged into the sea, it's

        clearer than ever that the passengers on

        board were victims of a missile strike.


        While most of the 154 missile-witness

        accounts taken by the FBI remain covered

        up, a few accounts are available to the

        public, such as the accounts of 5 pilots

        who were flying in the area when TWA 800

        was suddenly annihilated:



        FIVE PILOTS - FIVE MISSILE WITNESSES


        PILOT 1: Colonel William Stratemeier, Jr.


        AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY reported

        that Air National Guard C-130 pilot Colonel

        Stratemeier "said he had seen what appeared

        to be the trail of a shoulder-fired SAM ending

        in a flash on the 747." [1] However, in the

        next issue of AVIATION WEEK Stratemeier re-

        cants, saying: "We did not see smoke trails

        [from a missile], any ignition source from

        the tail end of a rocket nor anything..."[2]


        Col. Stratemeier recanted and therefore was

        not hit with an FBI gag order, but the next

        two ANG pilots did not recant their accounts

        and therefore were hit with FBI gag orders.



        PILOT 2: Captain Christian Baur


        AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY reports

        that right after the TWA 800 accident, ANG

        HH-60 helicopter co-pilot Captain Baur told

        federal officials: "Almost due south, there

        was a hard white light, like burning pyrotech-

        nics, in level flight. I was trying to figure

        out what it was. It was the wrong color for

        flares. It struck an object coming from the

        right [TWA 800] and made it explode." [3]



        PILOT 3: Major Frederick Meyer


        At a press conference the day after the TWA

        800 accident, ANG HH-60 helicopter pilot Major

        Meyer said: "I saw something that looked to me

        like a shooting star.  Now you normally don't

        see a shooting star when the sun is up. It was

        still bright... Almost immediately thereafter,

        I saw, in rapid succession, a small explosion

        then a large explosion." [4] Meyer said that

        the initial explosion  "looked identical to

        the detonation of an antiaircraft shell."[3]



        PILOT 4: Vasilis Bakounis


        Private Pilot and Olympic Airlines engineer

        Vasilis Bakounis told the Greek publication

        ELEFTHEROTYPIA [5] that as he was heading

        toward Gabreski Airport on July 17, 1996,

        "Suddenly I saw in the fog to my left toward

        the ocean, a small flame rising quickly to-

        ward the sky. Before I realized it, I saw

        this flame become huge. My first thought was

        that it was a flare that had been launched

        from some boat... This flame then started

        to quickly lose altitude and a few seconds

        later there was... a second explosion."



        PILOT 5: Sven Faret


        Flying at 8,500 feet moments before the

        cataclysmic explosion of TWA 800, private

        pilot Sven Faret reported that a "short

        pin-flash of light appeared on the ground,

        perhaps water." [6] When asked if the flash

        of light rose upwards vertically from the

        earth, Sven confirmed that it did, stating

        that it was "like a rocket launch at a

        fireworks display" with a point-of-origin

        "near the shoreline or in the water." [7]


        All 5 pilots witnessed a rapidly moving

        luminous and fiery object that was:


        1. like a surface-to-air missile

        2. like burning pyrotechnics

        3. like a meteor yet not like a meteor

        4. like a small flame rising quickly

        5. like a rocket at a fireworks display


        All 5 accounts indicate that this rapidly

        moving fiery object hit TWA 800 initiating

        the explosions that killed all on board.

        At least 2 of the pilots saw the object

        early enough in its trajectory to have

        seen it rise upwards from the Earth.


        The accounts of the pilots in the air are

        corroborated by over 100 witnesses on the

        ground who also saw a fiery object shoot

        upwards and intercept TWA 800. Some of

        them said that the fiery object was:


        * like a flare

        * like a thin white line

        * like Grucci fireworks

        * like a skyrocket


        Most witnesses, such as Naneen Levine

        on CNN [8], report that the fiery object

        followed a curving trajectory as it shot

        upwards toward TWA 800. There is simply

        no phenomena other than the firing of a

        missile that can explain all the details

        reported by the witnesses who saw that

        luminous object streak toward TWA 800.


        When we also consider that TWA 800 wreck-

        age shows the signs of missile damage,[9]

        the real question is not was it a missile

        that hit TWA 800, but whose missile was it.



        TERRORISTS OR THE U.S. NAVY?


        While the number of "terrorist-missile

        theories" is greater than zero, the number

        of terrorists known to be in the area during

        the crash is zero. Military experts have

        shown that the probability that terrorists

        could even deploy the military hardware

        necessary to destroy TWA 800 with a missile

        is near zero. In sum, the terrorist-missile

        theory offers us a whole lot of nothing.


        In contrast to the terrorist-missile theory,

        the U.S. Navy (a) could deploy the military

        hardware necessary to take out TWA 800, (b)

        did deploy assets to the area that were both

        below and above TWA 800 when it was hit, and

        (c) did activate warning zones near TWA 800

        for military exercises and live-firings. TWA

        800 even changed course to avoid an active

        naval-warning zone moments before it was hit.

        Unlike the terrorist theory, the Navy-missile

        theory is overflowing with evidence.



        THE NAVY SHUFFLE


        It is common for the guilty to try to deny the

        facts that place them at the scene of the crime

        or accident. The U.S. military tried to deny

        the fact that it was at the scene of the TWA

        800 accident. On July 23, 1996, Department of

        Defense spokesman Kenneth Bacon told the press:


            I'm not aware [that] there were any

            military exercises in the area. I've

            been told by the Joint [Chiefs of]

            Staff that there were not. [10]


        Yet after eight months of such denials, the

        Navy finally admitted that naval exercises

        were taking place off Long Island at the time

        of the TWA 800 accident. [11] The Navy also

        admitted that they had three submarines off

        Long Island in the ocean below TWA 800. [11]


        We know that there were at least 8 military

        assets in the area of the TWA 800 accident:


        1. NAVY: The ALBUQUERQUE, attack sub

        2. NAVY: The TREPANG, attack sub

        3. NAVY: The WYOMING, ICBM sub

        4. NAVY: P-3 Orion aircraft

        5. NAVY: The NORMANDY, missile cruiser

        6. USCG: The ADAK, CG patrol boat

        7. NYANG: HC-130 aircraft

        8. NYANG: HH-60 helicopter


        Every asset except the Adak has either

        (a) been denied to exist or (b) had its

        reported location at the time of the TWA

        800 accident changed by the military. For

        example, while shuffling around crash-time

        locations for months, the military placed

        4 of its assets in 11 locations:



        The Navy-missile-cruiser Normandy was:

        1. 180 miles away [12]

        2. 185 miles away [13]

        3. over 200 miles away [11]


        The Navy P-3 Orion aircraft was:

        1. 15 miles to the south [14]

        2. about 1 mile southwest [15]

        3. 3,700 feet below TWA 800 [16]

        4. 7,000 feet above TWA 800 [15]


        The ANG C-130 aircraft was:

        1. 10 miles offshore [17]

        2. flying along the coast [18]


        The ANG HH-60 helicopter was:

        1. 10 miles offshore at 3,000 feet

           doing search and rescue practice.[1]

        2. 3 miles inland at 100 feet

           doing practice landings. [19]


        Are we to believe that with as many as

        nine military radar systems blanketing

        the area [20] it would take months for

        the military to figure out where it was?

        The pattern of location shifting has

        been to move military assets further

        away from the accident than initially

        reported or further than was eventually

        discovered, as in the case of the P-3,

        which tapes proved was more than 10x

        closer to TWA 800 than once claimed.


        If the denial of evidenced proximity to

        the crime scene is evidence of culpability,

        then, since multiple instances of military

        proximity to TWA 800 have been denied by

        the military, the evidence that the mili-

        tary is culpable in the downing of TWA

        800 is significant.  The fact that not

        only assets but military exercises were

        denied, makes this evidence compelling.



        CONNECTING THE DOTS


        TWA 800 researcher Tom Shoemaker recently

        discovered documents showing that both the

        New York Air National Guard and the Navy

        were engaged in a large-scale exercise

        called "Global Yankee '96" taking place

        off shore between July 16 and 26, 1996.[20]


        Shoemaker's findings confirm the claim of

        TWA 800 researcher James Sanders that the

        Navy and the ANG were working together

        at the time of the accident. [21]


        While the fact that ANG pilots reported

        what they saw would seem to contradict

        the possibility of their culpability, it

        is clear that the ANG is not being forth-

        right about the locations of ANG assets

        at crash time.[18,URL] It should also be

        noted that ANG co-pilot Baur never said

        what he saw when he had the chance to at

        a press conference after the crash; that

        Major Meyer suggested first and foremost

        that TWA 800 was hit by a meteorite; and

        that Stratemeier suggested it was hit by

        a terrorist-style missile, then suddenly

        claimed he saw nothing. If the Navy and/

        or the ANG are guilty, then the ANG pilot

        responses would be predictable misleads.


        One year after the fiery demise of TWA

        800, the  Navy-missile theory not only

        remains superior to all other TWA 800

        theories, but is stronger than ever.


_____________________________________________________________

REFERENCES___________________________________________________


[1] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: Terrorist Fears Deepen

    With 747's Destruction. E.Phillips, P.Mann (7/22/96) p.20.

[2] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: ANG Eyewitnesses Reject

    Missile Theory. David Fulghum, July 29, 1996, page 32.

[3] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: ANG Pilot: Jet Hit

    by Object. By David Fulghum, March 10, 1997.

[4] New York Air National Guard, 106th Rescue

    Wing press conference, July 18, 1996.

[5] ELEFTHEROTYPIA. Greece, August 23, 1996.

    Article by Aris Hatzigeorgiou. http://www.enet.gr

[6] Report of TWA 800 witness Sven Faret:

    http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/aviator.html

[7] http://www.erols.com/igoddard/sven.htm

[8] CNN: TWA 800 witness Naneen Levine illustrates missile

    trajectory: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/levine.htm

[9] Debris: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/crash.htm

[10] Department of Defense press conference, July 23, 1996:

http://www.dtic.mil/defenselink/news/Jul96/t072396_t0723asd.html

[11] NEWSDAY: TWA Probe: Submarines Off LI. By R.E. Kessler,

     03/22/97. http://www.newsday.com/jet/cras0322.htm

[12] ASSOCIATED PRESS: Missile Attack a Favorite

     of Conspiracy Theorists. 09/03/96.

[13] ASSOCIATED PRESS: Document Says Navy Hit

     TWA Plane. By Jocelyn Noveck, 11/08/96.

[14] NEWSDAY: The Story So Far. By Craig Gordon, Lima Pleven,

     08/20/96. http://www.newsday.com/jet/jemyst20.htm

[15] ASSOCIATED PRESS: FBI Says Mystery Blip on Radar Tape

     is Unarmed Navy Reconnaissance Plane. 03/21/97.

[16] THE NEW AMERICAN: What Really Happened to TWA 800? By W.

     Jasper, 10/14/96. http://www.jbs.org/vo12no21.htm#TWA800

[17] NYANG says that the C-130 was in the area JAWS:

http://www.infoshop.com/106rescue/html/twa800-pres/sld002.html

     NYANG rep. James Finkle says JAWS is 10 miles offshore:

     http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html

[18] NYANG rep. James Finkle says the C-130 was not in JAWS:

     http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html

[19] In [1] the HH-60 is reported to have been offshore with the

     C-130, which the ANG says was in JAWS ten miles offshore,

     but then suddenly the HH-60 was moved over Gabreski Airport:

     http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html

     I called AVIATION WEEK and was told that it was an NYANG

     representative who told them that the HH-60 was offshore.

     I was told that the NYANG rep. read the off shore 3,000

     ft altitude location straight from Major Meyer's report.

[20] http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/newsfour.html

     Visit these pages and copy their contents:

     http://www.ang.af.mil/angrc-xo/xoom/aargy96.htm

     http://www.ang.af.mil/angrc-xo/glbynk/partcpnt.htm

     http://www.rl.af.mil/Lab/C3/current-events/gy_rap1.jpg

[21] The Downing of TWA Flight 800. By James Sanders, 1997.

<smaller>


</smaller>A pack of "unreferenced rumors"? HA! The media's presentation

of Ian Goddard's TWA 800 inquiry is a Big Lie in full display.




_____________________________________________

Ian Goddard <<igoddard at netkonnect.net>


- -- 
Ultimately, a nation of people are governed 
as they wish to be governed. - Jon Dougherty


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- -----------------------------------------------------
 -- End of forwarded message
- -----------------------------------------------------
- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From doitnow at t-1net.com  Fri Nov 14 11:19:06 1997
From: doitnow at t-1net.com (doitnow at t-1net.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:19:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Arthritic aardvarks?
Message-ID: <l03102813b087cec1f321@[207.215.86.169]>



------------------------------------------------------------------
 We sell the one product that everybody needs... MONEY!
------------------------------------------------------------------

     Let me show you how... mailto:reports4u at t-1net.com


------------------------------------------------------------------
 Any questions... 
     mailto:doitnow at t-1net.com?subject=i_like_money

 For list removal
     mailto:doitnow at t-1net.com?subject=please_remove ... Thanks.
------------------------------------------------------------------







From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Nov 13 20:45:46 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:45:46 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711132215.QAA07760@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04002703b0914a6c47bb@[139.167.130.248]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 5:13 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Monty writes:


> Physician heal thyself!  Much of your discussion consists of ad
> hominem attacks with little content such as the paragraph quoted
> above.

I sure if you actually read what I wrote, you actually might find one or two,
and when you do, I'm sure you'll find while Tim far exeeded me in quantity,
that *my* ad hominae were *much* better. So? Are you flowcharting the
discussion as well? :-). (Though, I think if you did, you'd find that I'm
hammering his ass there, as well, which is probably why there's a little bit
more foam at the corner of his mouth than usual at the moment... Oops.
*Another* ad hominem. So sorry.)

> The Foucault discussion quoted is worth reading.  Unfortunately, it's
> been a long time and I cannot provide a reference.

Frankly, I find Foucault tiresome. Self-referent relativism is always
tiresome. Politically correct self-referent relativism is the most tiresome
kind.

> At any rate, the upshot of his argument was that there are often
> attempts to ensure freedom, but in reality it can only be assured
> through its exercise.

If you lived here you'd be home now? Please.

> He gave the example of a building in France which was designed to make
> people feel free.  Instead of winding little corridors and small rooms
> where people would be locked away, it had a large open courtyard and
> it was designed so that when you entered the building, everybody could
> see you and you could see them.
>
> Foucault argued that in the context of people who are free, this
> building would have the intended effect.  In the context of a fearful
> and oppressive society, the effect would be quite the opposite.
> Everybody would feel that they were being watched all the time.

And the point is, as it almost always is with Foucault, that meaning is a word
game entirely dictated by culture, and no culture is better than any other,
and, so, like I said above, "If you lived here, you'd be home now". The
effects of architecture on people is pretty much a fact, as I expect that any
prisoner of Auschwitz ("Arbeit macht frei"?) would tell you. Unless, of
course, you've seen the pictures of SS men herding prisoners using machine
guns with empty chambers and the safties on. That, however, is more a question
of ignorance than anything else, I'd say. Ironic, I suppose, coming from me,
who wouldn't know whether a gun had a round in the chamber, either...

> If Tim believes that a judge has committed a capital crime, I want to
> hear about it.

Right. The judge made a decision that Tim thinks the judge should die for.

My point is not the fact of whether the judge committed an "executable"
offense, or didn't. It was that Tim made a thinly veiled threat. To wit, Tim
implied that the Judge should be executed for his court decision. I'm saying
that guys with associates' degrees in "criminal justice" would love any reason
to make Tim a new wife of one of their permanent jail residents after a, um,
crack, like that, and Tim, more to the um, point, seems to, um, up the ante,
by sauntering down to the the jailhouse and pissing on the guard's shoes.

Metaphorically, of course. :-).


> If Tim and others fail to exercise their right to say
> what they believe, then it is likely those rights will be suspended in
> due time.

Like I said before, it makes sense, but not because Foucault said it. Broken
clocks, and all that. Besides, Monty, I hate appeals to authority almost as
much as I hate ad honminae. I mean, Tim appeals to authority all the time, so
why should I? ;-). (Double score, for those of you who are keeping count :-))


> It seems to me that Tim said "The judge in the Paladin case committed
> a capital crime" and not "The judge in the Paladin case committed a
> capital crime and should be gunned down in the streets like a dog."

Frankly, I believe that the two sentences above are exactly the same thing,
and you're making a false difference between them. I'll grant you that Tim
said what he did say on this list, however, and that what he really meant at
the time, only he'll ever know, but that it was pretty apparently a wish (if
not a threat, if you want to pull semantic hairs until one bleeds) that the
judge be assassinated, because a judge can't be killed, legally, for *any*
decision he makes. I expect that gunning the judge down in the street like a
dog would fit Tim's bill quite nicely.

And, again, Tim's simply wishing it so in public might make him elligible for
the jailhouse dating game, if not that hilltop fandango I mentioned earlier.

> Tim is a good writer.  If he meant the latter I am sure he would have
> written the latter.  If anything, the term "capital crime" suggests a
> legal proceeding.

I'm quite certain, that since there's no legal way in this country to execute
a judge for making *any* decision, that Tim's "capital crime" is a thinly
vield reference to street justice, and nothing less.

> Personally, I don't consider violation of oath of office a capital
> crime.  But, the judge should be fired.  He clearly isn't taking the
> Constitution very seriously.

Not the point. The point is Tim's implied threat of violence to a sitting
judge.


> >Yes. Fine. Tim has courage. God bless him. Hope he enjoys his
> >firefight.
>
> I don't understand why you keep insulting Tim.  Your first post was
> insulting and comments like these are likewise insulting.

Me? Insult Tim? I meant everything I said, there, and, in my first post, I
meant it without any, um, malice aforethought. Tim is the one who seems to
take the facts so personally. And, if you haven't noticed, I keep repeating
the same point, though, Monty, you still don't seem to get it yourself: Tim
keeps predicting the end of the country as we know it, in some kind of violent
cataclysm, and, as if to precipitate that, he keeps saying outrageous things
in an apparent attempt to piss off law "enforcement" people, particularly the
ones with all the surplus military hardware.

Whether they listen to him, or not, is immaterial, though it may become
material if he keeps threatening judges with "capital punishment" for making
(admittedly stupid, if not scary) judicial rulings he doesn't like.

Those, Monty, are the facts, and they're pretty much indisputable.

And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to end on Thanksgiving
Day, much less at the beginning of the millenium. Armed storm troopers are
probably *not* going to decend on the denizens of this list and haul them off
to newly built gulags in the Rockies somewhere, or whatever the current
fantasy of the moment is.

It'll be the same old shit, on a different day. Though, maybe, the cost of
moving money will be a little lower from one day to the next. :-).

> The book I am reading is called "The Aurora: A Democratic-Republican
> Returns" by Richard N. Rosenfeld.

Okay. Here's where I cop to bad craziness. It's now time for me to fess up and
get my butt hammered like a gentleman. :-).

> >Right. And then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition laws. And then
> >the Supreme court took him out. Game over.
>
> We must be reading different books.

Maybe I was reading the Cliff Notes version. :-).

> After the editor of "The Aurora" was publicly beaten by Federal
> troops, citizens of Philadelphia formed an armed militia and stood
> guard outside the offices of the newspaper.  That's why it wasn't
> suppressed.

Well, to salvage what's left of my tattered reputation on this, :-), at least
I can take solice in what I said about 150 years of prior democracy being more
of a factor than legal fiat...

>  Jefferson's reply (page
> 902):
> > I discharged every person under punishment or prosecution under the
> > Sedition law, because I considered and now consider that law to be a
> > nullity as absolute and as palpable as if Congress had ordered us to
> > fall down and worship a golden image... [The discharge] was
> > accordingly done in every instance without asking what the offenders
> > had done or against whom they had offended but whether the pains
> > they were suffering were inflicted under the pretended sedition law.
> > It was certainly possible that my motives... might have been to
> > protect, encourage, and reward slander; but they may also have
> > been... to protect the Constitution violated by an unauthorized act
> > of Congress.  Which of these were my motives must be decided by a
> > regard to the general tenor of my life.  On this I am not afraid to
> > appeal to the nation at large, to posterity, and still less to that
> > Being who sees himself our motives, who will judge us from his own
> > knowledge of them, and not on the testimony of Porcupine or Fenno.

Sounds an awful lot like the guy who wrote the Bill of Rights to me. More in a
bit.


> 1. Publius was John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison.  Jay
> and Hamilton were leaders of the party attempting to subvert the
> Constitution.

Mostly Madison, I believe, and, oddly enough, a protoge of Jefferson at one
point.

> 2. The Federalist version of the Constitution was intended to have
> aristocratic elements - the Senate and the President.  Adams even
> suggested privately that the Senators should have life long terms and
> that Senate seats should be hereditary.

Yup. There's that aristocratic will to power, and all that. Here a magna
carta, there a magna carta, everywhere a magna carta... :-). Meanwhile
everyone who worked for a living already knew they had a democracy disguised
as a republic, whether it was written down somewhere or not.

> 3. The separation of powers failed completely during the Adams
> administration.  The Federalists had control of the Congress, the
> Executive Branch, and, I suspect, the Supreme Court.

So it seems.

> 4. The rights and freedoms of Americans were protected only by the
> fact that the voters threw the bastards out.  Something to keep in
> mind when people tell us that the voters are less trustworthy than
> career politicans.

Right. Which is the only straw of prior argument I can hold onto in this whole
deluge. :-). I should have read my Cliff Notes better. ;-).

> 6. Jefferson did not write the Bill of Rights.  He was in France at
> the time and was pleased to hear these amendments had been added to
> the Constitution.

I don't believe that's right. I believe, if you check it out, that Jefferson
sent the Bill of Rights to the Constitutional Convention from France, and that
Madison, ironically enough, had a hand in getting it passed. The Bill of
Rights and the Constitution were then ratified together as a single package on
a state by state basis. Madison and Jefferson were on friendly terms
throughout the Constitutional process.

Unless, of course, "History Your Mother Never Taught You" says otherwise. :-).

Before he left for France, Jefferson wrote what I think amounts to the
Constitution of Virginia, which includes a bill-of-rights-like section in it.
I can't remember the document's name, but it's on Jefferson's tombstone as one
of his few self-acknowleged accomplishments.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Nov 13 21:02:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:02:28 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.5 Conventional Encryption: Which Algorithm?
Message-ID: <199711140450.FAA28065@basement.replay.com>




Does anyone know what algorithm PGP 5.5 uses for conventional  encryption?
Also is PGP 5.5 capable of generating RSA keys of 4096 bits?
Thanks.







From jf_avon at citenet.net  Thu Nov 13 21:08:29 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:08:29 +0800
Subject: Quote from Mao
Message-ID: <199711140508.AAA23933@cti06.citenet.net>



===== forwarded from the Canadian Firearms Digest mailing list ====

>"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" 
>                                                                               - Mao

Which is why the Liberals only want the state to have guns.

- -keith

Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng  -  NFA Field Officer
kdesolla at cyberus.ca
http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/eohc.htm

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Nov 13 21:19:02 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:19:02 +0800
Subject: [OB: CRYTO] Re: about RC4
Message-ID: <199711140509.GAA00261@basement.replay.com>



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

> > > Because they couldn't speak a non-native language perfectly?

> >   No...because they couldn't speak a 'Native' language perfectly.
> > Cherokee!

> Navajo, if I understand what reference you're making. :-)  You are
> referring to the practice of using Navajo Indians for much of the
> top-secret communications during WWII, right?

  Right! It is em-bare-ass'ing to admit that my second 'guess' was
going to be Comanche...
  I'm not too dumb to use a Search Engine, just too lazy.






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Thu Nov 13 21:19:59 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:19:59 +0800
Subject: getting premail
Message-ID: <199711140511.XAA10505@manifold.algebra.com>



Anyone know of a WORKING site where I can download premail from?
kiwi...berkeley is refusing connections.
thanxZ
ignoramus






From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Nov 13 21:22:44 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:22:44 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.5 Conventional Encryption: Which Algorithm?
In-Reply-To: <199711140450.FAA28065@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711140514.AAA28608@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711140450.FAA28065 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/14/97 
   at 05:50 AM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>Does anyone know what algorithm PGP 5.5 uses for conventional 
>encryption? Also is PGP 5.5 capable of generating RSA keys of 4096 bits?

Well PGP 5.x makes use of 3 different symetric cyphers (CAST5, 3DES, &
IDEA) with CAST5 being the default. I haven't used the "conventional
encryption" (I am assuming that you are referring to file encryption) but
I would imagine that it does the same as the message encryption and
defaults to CAST5.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From mix at magusnet.com  Thu Nov 13 21:29:11 1997
From: mix at magusnet.com (Magus Mixmaster Anonymous Remailer Service)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:29:11 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <d96c40fc9c93dfc981de51eba53e6b67@magusnet.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bob Hettinga wrote:
>But then, logic, much less independent thinking, was never 
>Foucault's strong point.

I took this statement at face value, but out of curiousity I decided to find
out who this guy Foucault was.  The things I read about him lead me to 
believe otherwise.

Some quotes from Michel Foucault:

 "The judges of normality are present everywhere.  We are in
  the society of the teacher-judge, the doctor-judge, the 
  educator-judge, the 'social worker'-judge."

 "Prison continues, on those who are entrusted to it, a work
  begun elsewhere, which the whole of society pursues on each
  individual through innumerable mechanisms of discipline."

How quick we are to condemn those who step out of the "norm", no?  As soon 
as someone says something even slightly controversial, our inner censors 
rush in to separate ourselves from that person, to chastise him, to condemn 
him, regardless of the relationship we have developed with him in the past.

There is this unfortunate property in man that leads him to disassociate 
himself from the ideas he holds true if it is convenient, and especially if 
it will allow him to avoid the ridicule, hatred and disdain of others.  In 
the never ending "pursuit of happiness" we seek to make our lives so 
comfortable that we will give up that which we hold dearest.

 "The work of an intellectual is not to mould the political 
  will of others; it is, through the analyses that he does in 
  his own field, to re-examine evidence and assumptions, to 
  shake up habitual ways of working and thinking, to dissipate
  conventional familiarities, to re-evaluate rules and 
  institutions and...to participate in the formation of a 
  political will (where he has his role as citizen to play)."

In other words, to make people think.  This is the goal of the intellectual. 
To subtly influence the mass of humanity by appealing to their minds, their 
reason, instead of their base instincts and emotions.  Tolerance and 
acceptance are results brought about in us by communion with the mind, that 
which is greatest in us.  Hatred, persecution, violence are what we fall 
back upon when we cease to live to our fullest potential.  We degenerate 
into the animals we once were.

Once again, Bob wrote:
>The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
>absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
>independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

Perhaps one way of looking at it is that if you can't see the black and
the white, you're missing the whole picture.

After all, who would think that one would need to use an anonymous remailer
and a pseudonym to express oneself in a free and open society such as ours?

Nerthus

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Nov 13 21:30:04 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:30:04 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711140523.GAA01754@basement.replay.com>



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > At any rate, the upshot of his argument was that there are often
> > attempts to ensure freedom, but in reality it can only be assured
> > through its exercise.
 
> If you lived here you'd be home now? Please.

Don't you feel more like you do now than you did earlier?

Footfault






From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 13 21:36:36 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:36:36 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v04002703b0914a6c47bb@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <346BDEBB.2977@dev.null>



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > At any rate, the upshot of his argument was that there are often
> > attempts to ensure freedom, but in reality it can only be assured
> > through its exercise.
 
> If you lived here you'd be home now? Please.

Don't you feel more like you do now than you did earlier?

Footfault






From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 13 21:37:28 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:37:28 +0800
Subject: Yeah, but you can do anything with statistics... / WAS: Troublemaking Bleeding Heart Liberals
Message-ID: <346BD7E2.2FC3@dev.null>



* In July, a group of lawyers and state legislators petitioned the
Illinois Supreme Court to halt all executions immediately and
appoint a commission to study why, in the 20 years since the state
reinstituted the death penalty, more death row convicts have been
subsequently been found innocent and freed (9) than have been
executed (8). 

~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no audio. 
 Just text.  Deal with it.)







From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 13 21:40:07 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:40:07 +0800
Subject: A Leaner's as good as a Ringer! / WAS: Asleep on Crime
Message-ID: <346BD88C.7A81@dev.null>



* In June, the Court of Appeal in London, England, turned down
Thomas Moringiello's challenge to his fraud conviction and 18-
month prison sentence.  Although Moringiello was able to prove
that Judge Richard Hamilton had slept through portions of the
testimony at trial the year before, the higher court said Moringiello
was not harmed because Hamilton still was able to give a summary
of the case for the jury's deliberation. 

~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no audio. 
 Just text.  Deal with it.)







From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 13 21:42:56 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:42:56 +0800
Subject: TWA FLIGHT 800 (Subject matter - Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <199711140249.VAA26185@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <346BD529.432D@dev.null>



William H. Geiger III wrote:

> >From: "Malcolm R.Innerarity" <m.innera at pcps.edu>
> >Subject: TWA FLIGHT 800 (Subject matter - Terrorism)
> From: Ian Goddard <igoddard at netkonnect.net>
> 
> CNN said that my TWA 800 research was a "sham" and a "plot."
> That is a lie. Here is one of my reports. All these referenced
> items are accurate. Can you find any "sham" or "plot"? If not,
> what does that tell us about CNN?  Spread this far and wide.
> Please save this now historical report. Other reports may
> be found here: http://www.copi.com/articles/Goddard

  Isn't CNN that wonderful source of news that recently brought us
the startling revelation that Richard Nixon really was a criminal?
  Next Week on CNN: Vietnam was a WAR, not a Police Action!

  Why does the FBI slap a gag order on witnesses who report facts
of what they have seen? To suppress the facts, obviously.
  What do the Nixon tapes now contain that they didn't contain at 
the time his criminality was being denied, he was being officially
pardoned, and there was an attempt to rehabilitate his public image? 
  Nothing!

  Now that the Official Explaination (TM) of the TWA affair has
turned out according to the Official Script (TM), I guess we have to
wait twenty or thirty years to find out exactly what information 
about the TWA affair is being suppressed.
  Until then, the government is once again our best friend, protecting
us from facts we do not need to know. Surprise, surprise!

TruthMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~
         ______________________________________
> 
>        (free to forward & copy  with attribute)
> 
>         --------------------------------------
> 
>       T W A   8 0 0   M I S S I L E   T H E O R Y
> 
>         -  S T R O N G E R   T H A N   E V E R
> 
>         (c) (07/17/97) Ian Williams Goddard
> 
>         One year after the pulverized remains of
> 
>         TWA Flight 800 plunged into the sea, it's
> 
>         clearer than ever that the passengers on
> 
>         board were victims of a missile strike.
> 
>         While most of the 154 missile-witness
> 
>         accounts taken by the FBI remain covered
> 
>         up, a few accounts are available to the
> 
>         public, such as the accounts of 5 pilots
> 
>         who were flying in the area when TWA 800
> 
>         was suddenly annihilated:
> 
>         FIVE PILOTS - FIVE MISSILE WITNESSES
> 
>         PILOT 1: Colonel William Stratemeier, Jr.
> 
>         AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY reported
> 
>         that Air National Guard C-130 pilot Colonel
> 
>         Stratemeier "said he had seen what appeared
> 
>         to be the trail of a shoulder-fired SAM ending
> 
>         in a flash on the 747." [1] However, in the
> 
>         next issue of AVIATION WEEK Stratemeier re-
> 
>         cants, saying: "We did not see smoke trails
> 
>         [from a missile], any ignition source from
> 
>         the tail end of a rocket nor anything..."[2]
> 
>         Col. Stratemeier recanted and therefore was
> 
>         not hit with an FBI gag order, but the next
> 
>         two ANG pilots did not recant their accounts
> 
>         and therefore were hit with FBI gag orders.
> 
>         PILOT 2: Captain Christian Baur
> 
>         AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY reports
> 
>         that right after the TWA 800 accident, ANG
> 
>         HH-60 helicopter co-pilot Captain Baur told
> 
>         federal officials: "Almost due south, there
> 
>         was a hard white light, like burning pyrotech-
> 
>         nics, in level flight. I was trying to figure
> 
>         out what it was. It was the wrong color for
> 
>         flares. It struck an object coming from the
> 
>         right [TWA 800] and made it explode." [3]
> 
>         PILOT 3: Major Frederick Meyer
> 
>         At a press conference the day after the TWA
> 
>         800 accident, ANG HH-60 helicopter pilot Major
> 
>         Meyer said: "I saw something that looked to me
> 
>         like a shooting star.  Now you normally don't
> 
>         see a shooting star when the sun is up. It was
> 
>         still bright... Almost immediately thereafter,
> 
>         I saw, in rapid succession, a small explosion
> 
>         then a large explosion." [4] Meyer said that
> 
>         the initial explosion  "looked identical to
> 
>         the detonation of an antiaircraft shell."[3]
> 
>         PILOT 4: Vasilis Bakounis
> 
>         Private Pilot and Olympic Airlines engineer
> 
>         Vasilis Bakounis told the Greek publication
> 
>         ELEFTHEROTYPIA [5] that as he was heading
> 
>         toward Gabreski Airport on July 17, 1996,
> 
>         "Suddenly I saw in the fog to my left toward
> 
>         the ocean, a small flame rising quickly to-
> 
>         ward the sky. Before I realized it, I saw
> 
>         this flame become huge. My first thought was
> 
>         that it was a flare that had been launched
> 
>         from some boat... This flame then started
> 
>         to quickly lose altitude and a few seconds
> 
>         later there was... a second explosion."
> 
>         PILOT 5: Sven Faret
> 
>         Flying at 8,500 feet moments before the
> 
>         cataclysmic explosion of TWA 800, private
> 
>         pilot Sven Faret reported that a "short
> 
>         pin-flash of light appeared on the ground,
> 
>         perhaps water." [6] When asked if the flash
> 
>         of light rose upwards vertically from the
> 
>         earth, Sven confirmed that it did, stating
> 
>         that it was "like a rocket launch at a
> 
>         fireworks display" with a point-of-origin
> 
>         "near the shoreline or in the water." [7]
> 
>         All 5 pilots witnessed a rapidly moving
> 
>         luminous and fiery object that was:
> 
>         1. like a surface-to-air missile
> 
>         2. like burning pyrotechnics
> 
>         3. like a meteor yet not like a meteor
> 
>         4. like a small flame rising quickly
> 
>         5. like a rocket at a fireworks display
> 
>         All 5 accounts indicate that this rapidly
> 
>         moving fiery object hit TWA 800 initiating
> 
>         the explosions that killed all on board.
> 
>         At least 2 of the pilots saw the object
> 
>         early enough in its trajectory to have
> 
>         seen it rise upwards from the Earth.
> 
>         The accounts of the pilots in the air are
> 
>         corroborated by over 100 witnesses on the
> 
>         ground who also saw a fiery object shoot
> 
>         upwards and intercept TWA 800. Some of
> 
>         them said that the fiery object was:
> 
>         * like a flare
> 
>         * like a thin white line
> 
>         * like Grucci fireworks
> 
>         * like a skyrocket
> 
>         Most witnesses, such as Naneen Levine
> 
>         on CNN [8], report that the fiery object
> 
>         followed a curving trajectory as it shot
> 
>         upwards toward TWA 800. There is simply
> 
>         no phenomena other than the firing of a
> 
>         missile that can explain all the details
> 
>         reported by the witnesses who saw that
> 
>         luminous object streak toward TWA 800.
> 
>         When we also consider that TWA 800 wreck-
> 
>         age shows the signs of missile damage,[9]
> 
>         the real question is not was it a missile
> 
>         that hit TWA 800, but whose missile was it.
> 
>         TERRORISTS OR THE U.S. NAVY?
> 
>         While the number of "terrorist-missile
> 
>         theories" is greater than zero, the number
> 
>         of terrorists known to be in the area during
> 
>         the crash is zero. Military experts have
> 
>         shown that the probability that terrorists
> 
>         could even deploy the military hardware
> 
>         necessary to destroy TWA 800 with a missile
> 
>         is near zero. In sum, the terrorist-missile
> 
>         theory offers us a whole lot of nothing.
> 
>         In contrast to the terrorist-missile theory,
> 
>         the U.S. Navy (a) could deploy the military
> 
>         hardware necessary to take out TWA 800, (b)
> 
>         did deploy assets to the area that were both
> 
>         below and above TWA 800 when it was hit, and
> 
>         (c) did activate warning zones near TWA 800
> 
>         for military exercises and live-firings. TWA
> 
>         800 even changed course to avoid an active
> 
>         naval-warning zone moments before it was hit.
> 
>         Unlike the terrorist theory, the Navy-missile
> 
>         theory is overflowing with evidence.
> 
>         THE NAVY SHUFFLE
> 
>         It is common for the guilty to try to deny the
> 
>         facts that place them at the scene of the crime
> 
>         or accident. The U.S. military tried to deny
> 
>         the fact that it was at the scene of the TWA
> 
>         800 accident. On July 23, 1996, Department of
> 
>         Defense spokesman Kenneth Bacon told the press:
> 
>             I'm not aware [that] there were any
> 
>             military exercises in the area. I've
> 
>             been told by the Joint [Chiefs of]
> 
>             Staff that there were not. [10]
> 
>         Yet after eight months of such denials, the
> 
>         Navy finally admitted that naval exercises
> 
>         were taking place off Long Island at the time
> 
>         of the TWA 800 accident. [11] The Navy also
> 
>         admitted that they had three submarines off
> 
>         Long Island in the ocean below TWA 800. [11]
> 
>         We know that there were at least 8 military
> 
>         assets in the area of the TWA 800 accident:
> 
>         1. NAVY: The ALBUQUERQUE, attack sub
> 
>         2. NAVY: The TREPANG, attack sub
> 
>         3. NAVY: The WYOMING, ICBM sub
> 
>         4. NAVY: P-3 Orion aircraft
> 
>         5. NAVY: The NORMANDY, missile cruiser
> 
>         6. USCG: The ADAK, CG patrol boat
> 
>         7. NYANG: HC-130 aircraft
> 
>         8. NYANG: HH-60 helicopter
> 
>         Every asset except the Adak has either
> 
>         (a) been denied to exist or (b) had its
> 
>         reported location at the time of the TWA
> 
>         800 accident changed by the military. For
> 
>         example, while shuffling around crash-time
> 
>         locations for months, the military placed
> 
>         4 of its assets in 11 locations:
> 
>         The Navy-missile-cruiser Normandy was:
> 
>         1. 180 miles away [12]
> 
>         2. 185 miles away [13]
> 
>         3. over 200 miles away [11]
> 
>         The Navy P-3 Orion aircraft was:
> 
>         1. 15 miles to the south [14]
> 
>         2. about 1 mile southwest [15]
> 
>         3. 3,700 feet below TWA 800 [16]
> 
>         4. 7,000 feet above TWA 800 [15]
> 
>         The ANG C-130 aircraft was:
> 
>         1. 10 miles offshore [17]
> 
>         2. flying along the coast [18]
> 
>         The ANG HH-60 helicopter was:
> 
>         1. 10 miles offshore at 3,000 feet
> 
>            doing search and rescue practice.[1]
> 
>         2. 3 miles inland at 100 feet
> 
>            doing practice landings. [19]
> 
>         Are we to believe that with as many as
> 
>         nine military radar systems blanketing
> 
>         the area [20] it would take months for
> 
>         the military to figure out where it was?
> 
>         The pattern of location shifting has
> 
>         been to move military assets further
> 
>         away from the accident than initially
> 
>         reported or further than was eventually
> 
>         discovered, as in the case of the P-3,
> 
>         which tapes proved was more than 10x
> 
>         closer to TWA 800 than once claimed.
> 
>         If the denial of evidenced proximity to
> 
>         the crime scene is evidence of culpability,
> 
>         then, since multiple instances of military
> 
>         proximity to TWA 800 have been denied by
> 
>         the military, the evidence that the mili-
> 
>         tary is culpable in the downing of TWA
> 
>         800 is significant.  The fact that not
> 
>         only assets but military exercises were
> 
>         denied, makes this evidence compelling.
> 
>         CONNECTING THE DOTS
> 
>         TWA 800 researcher Tom Shoemaker recently
> 
>         discovered documents showing that both the
> 
>         New York Air National Guard and the Navy
> 
>         were engaged in a large-scale exercise
> 
>         called "Global Yankee '96" taking place
> 
>         off shore between July 16 and 26, 1996.[20]
> 
>         Shoemaker's findings confirm the claim of
> 
>         TWA 800 researcher James Sanders that the
> 
>         Navy and the ANG were working together
> 
>         at the time of the accident. [21]
> 
>         While the fact that ANG pilots reported
> 
>         what they saw would seem to contradict
> 
>         the possibility of their culpability, it
> 
>         is clear that the ANG is not being forth-
> 
>         right about the locations of ANG assets
> 
>         at crash time.[18,URL] It should also be
> 
>         noted that ANG co-pilot Baur never said
> 
>         what he saw when he had the chance to at
> 
>         a press conference after the crash; that
> 
>         Major Meyer suggested first and foremost
> 
>         that TWA 800 was hit by a meteorite; and
> 
>         that Stratemeier suggested it was hit by
> 
>         a terrorist-style missile, then suddenly
> 
>         claimed he saw nothing. If the Navy and/
> 
>         or the ANG are guilty, then the ANG pilot
> 
>         responses would be predictable misleads.
> 
>         One year after the fiery demise of TWA
> 
>         800, the  Navy-missile theory not only
> 
>         remains superior to all other TWA 800
> 
>         theories, but is stronger than ever.
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> 
> REFERENCES___________________________________________________
> 
> [1] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: Terrorist Fears Deepen
> 
>     With 747's Destruction. E.Phillips, P.Mann (7/22/96) p.20.
> 
> [2] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: ANG Eyewitnesses Reject
> 
>     Missile Theory. David Fulghum, July 29, 1996, page 32.
> 
> [3] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: ANG Pilot: Jet Hit
> 
>     by Object. By David Fulghum, March 10, 1997.
> 
> [4] New York Air National Guard, 106th Rescue
> 
>     Wing press conference, July 18, 1996.
> 
> [5] ELEFTHEROTYPIA. Greece, August 23, 1996.
> 
>     Article by Aris Hatzigeorgiou. http://www.enet.gr
> 
> [6] Report of TWA 800 witness Sven Faret:
> 
>     http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/aviator.html
> 
> [7] http://www.erols.com/igoddard/sven.htm
> 
> [8] CNN: TWA 800 witness Naneen Levine illustrates missile
> 
>     trajectory: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/levine.htm
> 
> [9] Debris: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/crash.htm
> 
> [10] Department of Defense press conference, July 23, 1996:
> 
> http://www.dtic.mil/defenselink/news/Jul96/t072396_t0723asd.html
> 
> [11] NEWSDAY: TWA Probe: Submarines Off LI. By R.E. Kessler,
> 
>      03/22/97. http://www.newsday.com/jet/cras0322.htm
> 
> [12] ASSOCIATED PRESS: Missile Attack a Favorite
> 
>      of Conspiracy Theorists. 09/03/96.
> 
> [13] ASSOCIATED PRESS: Document Says Navy Hit
> 
>      TWA Plane. By Jocelyn Noveck, 11/08/96.
> 
> [14] NEWSDAY: The Story So Far. By Craig Gordon, Lima Pleven,
> 
>      08/20/96. http://www.newsday.com/jet/jemyst20.htm
> 
> [15] ASSOCIATED PRESS: FBI Says Mystery Blip on Radar Tape
> 
>      is Unarmed Navy Reconnaissance Plane. 03/21/97.
> 
> [16] THE NEW AMERICAN: What Really Happened to TWA 800? By W.
> 
>      Jasper, 10/14/96. http://www.jbs.org/vo12no21.htm#TWA800
> 
> [17] NYANG says that the C-130 was in the area JAWS:
> 
> http://www.infoshop.com/106rescue/html/twa800-pres/sld002.html
> 
>      NYANG rep. James Finkle says JAWS is 10 miles offshore:
> 
>      http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html
> 
> [18] NYANG rep. James Finkle says the C-130 was not in JAWS:
> 
>      http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html
> 
> [19] In [1] the HH-60 is reported to have been offshore with the
> 
>      C-130, which the ANG says was in JAWS ten miles offshore,
> 
>      but then suddenly the HH-60 was moved over Gabreski Airport:
> 
>      http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html
> 
>      I called AVIATION WEEK and was told that it was an NYANG
> 
>      representative who told them that the HH-60 was offshore.
> 
>      I was told that the NYANG rep. read the off shore 3,000
> 
>      ft altitude location straight from Major Meyer's report.
> 
> [20] http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/newsfour.html
> 
>      Visit these pages and copy their contents:
> 
>      http://www.ang.af.mil/angrc-xo/xoom/aargy96.htm
> 
>      http://www.ang.af.mil/angrc-xo/glbynk/partcpnt.htm
> 
>      http://www.rl.af.mil/Lab/C3/current-events/gy_rap1.jpg
> 
> [21] The Downing of TWA Flight 800. By James Sanders, 1997.
> 
> <smaller>
> 
> </smaller>A pack of "unreferenced rumors"? HA! The media's presentation
> 
> of Ian Goddard's TWA 800 inquiry is a Big Lie in full display.
> 
> _____________________________________________
> 
> Ian Goddard <<igoddard at netkonnect.net>
> 
> - --
> Ultimately, a nation of people are governed
> as they wish to be governed. - Jon Dougherty







From schear at lvdi.net  Thu Nov 13 21:50:52 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:50:52 +0800
Subject: Fwd: Set Phasers to Stun.
In-Reply-To: <v04002736b090e9185a7c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0918601affc@[208.129.55.202]>



>One attempt to overcome the limitations of tasers uses a stream of
>liquid that hits a victim with a 10 000-volt charge. This causes painful
>muscle spasms in the victim. But the liquid can split into droplets,
>breaking the electrical connection, and is hard to aim. Herr's invention
>uses lasers to generate intense beams of ultraviolet light.
>
>These create a path of ionised air down which precisely modulated
>electrical current is sent. The currents can be manipulated to cause
>painful contractions, stun a victim painlessly, or induce a heart
>attack. It has a far longer range than the taser-over 100 metres-and the
>beam can penetrate clothing. The phaser can also fire many shots before
>it needs reloading.
>
>Using ultraviolet light avoids legal restrictions on weapons that blind
>with laser light, since it would take several minutes to damage the
>retina with the wavelength of light used by the device.
>
>A hand-held version of the phaser is not yet available because the
>argon-fluoride discharge-pumped excimer laser it uses is as big as a
>kitchen table. Herr is hoping that others will find ways to make his
>device smaller and more powerful, as well as improve its range. He says
>that any technically competent person would be able to build a phaser.

I can't fathom why the PTO issued the patent.  This technology is well known in military circles (I'm sure I saw an article in Aviation Leak and Space Technology about this a few years back) for downing planes and even missiles. 

A shortcoming of the proposed approach, as noted above, is the size and cost for such lasers.  However, if one assumes that some portions of the system are single use, like cartridges and bullets in firearms, it might be possible to safely employ small explosive charges to pump a laser (either an excimer or FEL, free electron laser), either chemically or electrically.  See : http://www.cdsar.af.mil/kopp/apjemp.html

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
Lammar Laboratories       |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: schear at lvdi.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------







From schear at lvdi.net  Thu Nov 13 21:51:40 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:51:40 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711131942.LAA29385@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b091947a167f@[208.129.55.202]>



Kuddos!

At 11:45 AM -0700 11/13/1997, Ross Wright wrote:
>
>ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FREE RADIO BERKELEY & MICROPOWER BROADCASTING
>
>At 7 PM on Thursday, [ed: correction - Wednesday] November 12
>attorneys for Stephen Dunifer & Free Radio Berkeley received a 14 page
>decision via fax from Federal District Court Judge Claudia Wilken
>announcing her ruling in favor of Stephen Dunifer and Free Radio
>Berkeley. Her ruling denies the FCC's motion for summary judgement for
>a permanent injunction, states that she has jurisdiction in this case
>and that the FCC's regulatory structure is unconstitutional. Further,
>she orders the FCC to submit within 14 days a brief on the
>constitutional issues raised. 

I made similar comments unrelated to Stephen's case in my "Basis of FCC jurisdiction" rant posted to Cypherpunks and Telecom Regulation lists in September of '96.

"I've been wondering lately about the jurisdictional limits of the FCC
vis-a-vis the Article(s) of the Constitution from which they derive their
authority.  My understanding is that the FCC is empowered under the Fed's
interstate commerce clauses.  If so, how valid is their jurisdiction over
low power and/or millimeter wave transmissions.  It seems a case can be
made that such transmissions represent little or no possibility of
interstate transmission."


--Steve







From semprini at theschool.com  Thu Nov 13 22:28:48 1997
From: semprini at theschool.com (semprini at theschool.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:28:48 +0800
Subject: Microsoft Addresses Justice Department Accusations
Message-ID: <199711140617.WAA27386@k2.brigadoon.com>



Microsoft Addresses Justice Department Accusations

REDMOND, Wash. -- Oct. 21, 1997 -- In direct response to accusations 
made by the Department of Justice, Microsoft Corporation announced 
today it will be acquiring the Federal Government of the United States 
of America for an undisclosed sum. "It's actually a logical extension 
of our growth," said Microsoft chairman and CEO Bill Gates. "It's a 
positive arrangement for everyone."

Microsoft representatives held a briefing at the Oval Office with US
President Bill Clinton, and assured members of the press that changes 
to US Government policy will be "minimal." The United States will be 
managed as a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft Corp. An initial 
public offering is planned for July 4 of next year, and the Federal 
Government is expected to be profitable by 1999, according to 
Microsoft president Steve Ballmer.

In a related announcement, President Bill Clinton stated that he had
"willingly and enthusiastically" accepted a position as vice 
president of USA Operations with Microsoft, and will continue to 
manage the United States government, reporting directly to Microsoft 
chairman and CEO Bill Gates. When asked how it felt to give up the 
mantle of executive authority, Clinton smiled and referred to it as "a 
relief." He went on to say that Gates has a "proven track record," and 
that US citizens should offer Gates their "full support and 
confidence."

In his new role at Microsoft, Clinton will reportedly be earning 
several times the $200,000 annually he currently earns as US 
president. Gates dismissed a rumor that the US Capitol be moved to 
Redmond as "silly," though he did say he would make executive 
decisions for the US government from his existing office at Microsoft 
headquarters.

Gates did say, however, that the US House and Senate would "of 
course" be abolished. "Microsoft isn't a democracy," Gates said, "yet 
look how well we're doing." When asked if the rumored attendant 
acquisition of Canada was proceeding, Gates would only say that 
Microsoft doesn't comment on unannounced products.

Microsoft representatives closed the conference by stating that United
States citizens will be able to expect lower taxes, increases in
government services, discounts on all Microsoft products, and the
immediate arrest of all executive officials of Sun Microsystems Inc. 
and Netscape Corp.

About Microsoft - Founded in 1975, Microsoft (NASDAQ "MSFT") is the
worldwide leader in software for personal computers, and democratic
government. The company offers a wide range of products and services 
for public, business and personal use, each designed with the mission 
of making it easier and more enjoyable for people to take advantage of 
the full power of personal computing and mostly free society every 
day. 

About the United States - Founded in 1776, the United States of 
America is the most successful nation n the history of the world, and 
has been a beacon of democracy and opportunity for over 200 years. 
Headquartered in Washington, DC, the United States is a wholly owned 
subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation.

"The United States of America" and "Microsoft" are registered 
trademarks of Microsoft Corporation.






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov 13 22:47:13 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:47:13 +0800
Subject: getting premail
In-Reply-To: <199711140511.XAA10505@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971113223820.0070f958@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 11:11 PM 11/13/1997 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Anyone know of a WORKING site where I can download premail from?
>kiwi...berkeley is refusing connections.

http://atropos.c2.net/~raph/premail.html

Also look at www.publius.net

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From ryan at michonline.com  Thu Nov 13 22:50:02 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:50:02 +0800
Subject: [OB: CRYTO] Re: about RC4
In-Reply-To: <199711140509.GAA00261@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971114013803.17808F-100000@king>



On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> > >   No...because they couldn't speak a 'Native' language perfectly.
> > > Cherokee!
> 
> > Navajo, if I understand what reference you're making. :-)  You are
> > referring to the practice of using Navajo Indians for much of the
> > top-secret communications during WWII, right?
> 
>   Right! It is em-bare-ass'ing to admit that my second 'guess' was
> going to be Comanche...
>   I'm not too dumb to use a Search Engine, just too lazy.

That's not as embarassing as the fact that we're running low on speakers
of Navajo in this country now.  It would be kinda convenient to have that
ability available again.  My gut feeling is that Navajo remains one of the
most poorly documented languages in the world....  government research
(funny name for it, come to think of it) into the language is probably
quite classified....

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From ryan at michonline.com  Thu Nov 13 22:53:54 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:53:54 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b091947a167f@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971114014118.17808G-100000@king>



On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Kuddos!

Actually, I've got a bad feeling about this.  (cliche, but it fits)  Out
of *all* the government agencies, the least screwed up has got to be the
FCC.  If we're going to eliminate agencies, this isn't the place to start.

Yes, I've been an Amateur Radio op for 10 years now.  From what I've seen,
the FCC does it's best to keep things from getting totally screwed up.
Can't say that about some others (hmm.. any of the ones with guns, would
the the "others")


Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Thu Nov 13 22:56:52 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:56:52 +0800
Subject: getting premail
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971113223820.0070f958@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711140644.AAA11157@manifold.algebra.com>



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 11:11 PM 11/13/1997 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Anyone know of a WORKING site where I can download premail from?
> >kiwi...berkeley is refusing connections.
> 
> http://atropos.c2.net/~raph/premail.html
> 
> Also look at www.publius.net

Nope, all of these sites refer me to kiwi, which is refusing connections.

	- Igor.






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov 13 22:58:18 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:58:18 +0800
Subject: Tim May is in good company
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971113224810.03246fbc@popd.netcruiser>

I think the following quotes speak for themselves:

	"You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go around repeating the
very phrases which our founding fathers used in their struggle for
independence."
	Charles M. Beard

	"They tell us we are weak�-unable to cope with so formidable an adversary.
But when shall we be stronger? Will it be next week, or the next year? Will
it be when we are totally disarmed? Shall we acquire the means of effectual
resistance by lying supinely on out backs and hugging the delusive phantom
of hope, until out enemies have bound us hand and foot?
	"We are not weak if we make a proper use of the means which the God of
nature has placed in out power. Millions of people armed in the hold cause
of Liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible.
Besides, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who
presides over the destinies of nations, who will raise up friends to fight
our battles for us. The battle, is not to the strong alone; it is to the
vigilant, the active, the brave.
	"Many cry 'Peace, peace'-�but there is no peace. The war is actually
begun! Why stand we here idle? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be
purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I
know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me Liberty or
give me death!"
	Patrick Henry

	"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are
in almost every Kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot
enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are
armed..."
	Noah Webster


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
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From schear at lvdi.net  Thu Nov 13 23:33:05 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:33:05 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b091947a167f@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb091aab14e81@[208.129.55.202]>



>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> Kuddos!
>
>Actually, I've got a bad feeling about this.  (cliche, but it fits)  Out
>of *all* the government agencies, the least screwed up has got to be the
>FCC.  If we're going to eliminate agencies, this isn't the place to start.

Was my "commerce clause" argument essentially the same as Stephen's?

>
>Yes, I've been an Amateur Radio op for 10 years now.  From what I've seen,
>the FCC does it's best to keep things from getting totally screwed up.
>Can't say that about some others (hmm.. any of the ones with guns, would
>the the "others")

The states are certainly ill equiped to handle the FCC's role, but ignoring the Constitution because it's inconvenient is the slippery slope we've been on since  Federal power was "illegally" expanded and the principle of judicial review was established in 1803 in the famous case of Marbury v. Madison.  Since then, any excuse the President and Congress can come up with is sufficient to create a  new agency and expanded authority.  Completely circumventing Constitutional intent.

The demise a needed Federal agency is but a small price to pay for puttling right the apple cart.  Besides, Congress can always call for an ammendment and if the people (through their state leglislature) agree re-instate FCC authority through proper means.

--Steve







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 13 23:40:43 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:40:43 +0800
Subject: Navajo Code Talkers
In-Reply-To: <199711140509.GAA00261@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808b091a0d3e689@[207.167.93.63]>



At 11:39 PM -0700 11/13/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:

>That's not as embarassing as the fact that we're running low on speakers
>of Navajo in this country now.  It would be kinda convenient to have that
>ability available again.  My gut feeling is that Navajo remains one of the
>most poorly documented languages in the world....  government research
>(funny name for it, come to think of it) into the language is probably
>quite classified....

But the basis of using the Navajo code talkers was classic "security
through obscurity." The U.S. was expecting, quite reasonably, that the
Japanese side would not have any Navajo speakers available (nor that they
Japanese would even figure out _what_ the language was).

The jig is up on using Navajo code talkers, so this particular role is now
history.

And modern crypto doesn't need this kind of code talking.

Finally, there are a couple of Navajo lexicons and dictionaries now
available, so the government has obviously not classified Navajo
scholarship...nor could it.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 13 23:52:00 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:52:00 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711131314.HAA05512@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b091a2aa5500@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:13 AM -0700 11/12/97, Neva Remailer wrote:

>While Blanc is only joking, I want to take this opportunity to comment
>on the Find The Mole game.
>
>Moles look just like everyone else.  Speculation on who is actually a
>provocateur or an informant or a saboteur or whatever only has the
>purpose of creating unhappiness and undermining anything worthwhile
>that is going on.
>
>It is likely that there are informants lurking amongst the
>cypherpunks.  The secret police watch and infiltrate far less
>interesting groups, and this one has received more than its share of
>publicity.  (In a couple of decades we'll probably learn who they
>were.  Hopefully things will work out in such a way that this will be
>worth a good laugh.)

At last year's Hacker's Conference, a programmer/analyst from the CIA told
me that the Cypherpunks list was well known to folks there. I don't know if
they're still reading it, what with the list hiccups earlier this year and
subsequent drop-off in number of subscriptions.

At this year's CFP, an NSA guy said the same thing about NSA getting the list.

I assume the government agents know exactly what we're talking about.

Someone who has corresponded with me privately said he works for a defense
contractor on intelligence matters, and he said they took my posts about
how unbreakable crypto would facillitate perfect espionage and perfect
black markets in information very seriously. He also said "Blacknet" was
used as an example of the dangers of info-terrorism.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From rwright at adnetsol.com  Fri Nov 14 00:02:50 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:02:50 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!
Message-ID: <199711140720.XAA17142@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>



Wow.  I'm glad the monger himself liked this little tidbit.  I 
thought it was relevant.

On or About 14 Nov 97 at 0:46, TruthMonger wrote:

> > At 11:45 AM -0700 11/13/1997, Ross Wright wrote:
> > >
> > >ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FREE RADIO BERKELEY & MICROPOWER BROADCASTING
> 
> Great lead for tracking parallels to the gubmint's plans for the
> Net, as well.
> 
> Thanks

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://ross.adnetsol.com
Voice: (408) 259-2795






From frantz at netcom.com  Fri Nov 14 00:05:09 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:05:09 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b08ffcdcfb0f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03110721b0919b0ac313@[207.94.250.122]>



At 4:56 PM -0800 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>... Well, I will say
>what I said before: the BATF and LA County Sheriffs responsible and
>involved in this case should be tried in a criminal court, should be
>convicted (based on what I have seen), and they should then be sentenced to
>die in the gas chamber at San Quentin. This is, after all, what they do to
>gang bangers who shoot up liquor stores. Cops should face execution. In
>this case, a mass execution of the dozen raiding officers would send a
>strong message to other cops.)

A minor point.  The gas chamber has been declared a cruel and unusual
punishment.  We use lethal injection now.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 14 00:11:14 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:11:14 +0800
Subject: Hyperlinks case settles at door of court
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971113225202.0071ece0@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>The Shetland Times case has been settled - links will be permitted with
>certain conditions
>
>See http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/headline/97nov/settled/settled.html

And it was even settled reasonably, and without setting new bad UK case law.

(For those who don't remember the case, the Shetland News and 
Shetland Times are Scottish newspapers with web pages.  
The News was linking from its page to some of the Times's stories 
without pointing out that the stories were in their competitor's paper,
and the Times sued them.  In the settlement they agree that the
News may link to the Times's pages, and that they'll only do so
with visible indications that they're doing so.)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 14 01:05:24 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:05:24 +0800
Subject: Key Signing
In-Reply-To: <199711100021.BAA03513@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971113235828.0072b134@popd.ix.netcom.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:21 AM 11/10/1997 +0100, Necessarily Knot, ME wrote:
>I am including the key (below) for my new nym, which has not been used
>before, and would like for people to sign it and send the signed key
>to the list.
>This way, people will know by the signature, that it is, indeed:
>Necessarily Knot, ME

This was bizarre - what did you do to create the key and the ASCII version?
I imported the key into my PGP 5.0, and saw the double-key icon,
which says I have the private key as well as the public key,
and sure enough, it was willing to let me change the passphrase
(which was previously not set.)  

I'm not sure how comfortable I am signing a key which has the
private keys made public - so I signed it, and revoked it,
and you're welcome to the signed revocation certificate :-)

The keyserver says it accepted the certificate, but doesn't
find it when I query it for the key, but then it did that to me
earlier today, so I'm not sure if it's there or not.
(It's the server at http://www.pgp.com/keyserver/pks-lookup.cgi .)

The KeyID was 0x61C747B1 - 512-bit RSA 

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

mQBNAzRmZWoAAAECAMnJrqd/TERCLeFscdgNvwVxrVG4tRm0VThMEXXkctCGMaUD
jcETxcV0ZseRUcyUKfqlLd3CRsIwClozlWHHR7EABRGJAFUDBSA0bAHUClozlWHH
R7EBARcXAf9oQLI0CvkPpxPLcUgdlolZ6J9Y5f5AAeX169o6SPtxaJBaHp0C39+0
h4EimgD+TB4kiCWvklDhkTDckAxweIjbtBVOZWNlc3NhcmlseSBLbm90dCwgTUWJ
AJUDBRA0bAGS+fMmybV+y8UBAYRCA/99H8XcS1h0X0l2vQ5zPqmOSiYQ0mfi5dXZ
iMOlqlnFzVyus3L6sIr9X7Xyzg8emaNfLslQBqiagLRyVVc6e5wTVSXOKQoMzqTm
s26OA/e+/1oZHx3mCgrJm2YWyjOVm8Vx1BwbrFSgTVgdiaKbeVKrj9Zbx178BYqs
Gd1RHLXjWQ==
=ANSy
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

But hey, since I've got this bogus key around, might as well sign
something with it :-)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNGwEogpaM5Vhx0exAQGupAH/duqAF915VFqxcFHk3wlmXzmU2DDQv9nP
6FM0rU2MSfiFmfQu76dBAyriBAdEzk1Ry+oyZiWIlixGZYbLaXLU8Q==
=5ZQC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 14 01:05:29 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:05:29 +0800
Subject: Victory for Microbroadcasting
Message-ID: <346BF993.3418@dev.null>

The federal war against Microbroadcasting should be studied by all
InfoWarriors who plan to shed their ElectroBlood defending the coming
attacks against MicroWeb free speech.

The Intenet Content Coalition (ICC) made a cheap grab at trying to form
a corporate FCC to put the InterNet media-power brokering in the hands
of those who already rule the roost overseen by the FCC. (Eliminating
the middle-man, so to speak.)
The fact of the matter is, the mainstream media is not going to have
a lot of trouble herding the majority of the sheeple into their feeding
pens, given the power, money and position that they already have, so
it is a bit tacky for them to have made an attempt to put themselves
in a position to 'enforce' standards favorable to themselves.

The difference between MicroBroadcasting and the MicroWeb/WebRings
that are being independently formed, is that MicroBroadcasting is
trying to get back what was stolen, and those on the InterNet are
trying to keep from getting what we already have, stolen in the
future.

TruthMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~



~~~~


           JUDGE WILKEN DENIES FCC MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGEMENT!!!

        National Lawyers Guild Committee on Democratic Communications

                    558 Capp Street, San Francisco 94110

                            FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                 COURT REJECTS FCC's CONSTITUTIONAL CATCH 22

     United States District Court Judge Claudia Wilken has rejected
     another attempt by the Federal Communications Commission to
     silence Berkeley Micro Radio Broadcaster Stephen Dunifer, founder
     of Free Radio Berkeley.

     In a 13 page opinion released on November 12, 1997, Judge Wilken
     once again rejected the government's motion for an injunction to
     silence micro radio broadcasts by local radio pioneer Stephen
     Dunifer.

     In 1995, Judge Wilken rejected the government's first motion for a
     preliminary injunction against Dunifer's broadcasts. At that time
     the Court found merit in Dunifer's argument that the FCC's ban on
     low power, affordable FM broadcasting was a violation of the First
     Amendment's guarantee of free speech to all in the United States.

     In a blatant attempt to avoid facing its First Amendment
     obligations the FCC then urged Wilken to permanently enjoin
     Dunifer from Broadcasting and at the same time argued that she
     could not even consider the issue of whether its rules, which
     prevent him from getting a license, are unconstitutional. In a
     Kafkaesqe argument, the Commission argued that Wilken had
     jurisdiction to issue an injunction, but no jurisdiction to hear
     Dunifer's constitutional arguments. The government claimed that
     only the higher federal courts could consider the constitutional
     question.

     In her November 12 decision rejecting the Government's position,
     Judge Wilken pointed to the fact that the FCC had taken exactly
     the opposite position in the 1994 case of Dougan vs FCC. In that
     case, an Arizona micro radio broadcaster had appealed an FCC fine
     (for broadcasting without a license) to the 9th Circuit Federal
     Court of Appeal, and the FCC had argued that the Court of Appeal
     had no jurisdiction over the case, and that it had to be heard by
     the District Court. The Court of Appeals agreed with the FCC and
     sent the case back to the District Court.

     Judge Wilken noted that the Arizona broadcaster had raised the
     same constitutional arguments in the Court of Appeals that Dunifer
     is raising. The Court ruled that in sending all of the issues in
     the Arizona case to the District Court, the Appeals Court
     recognized that the District Court had jurisdiction over all
     aspects of the case.

     In denying the Government's motion for an injunction "without
     prejudice," Judge Wilken ordered the Government to file a further
     brief on the question of whether the unconstitutionality of the
     FCC's ban on micro radio is a valid legal defense to an injunction
     against broadcasting at low power without a license. Dunifer's
     attorneys, Louis Hiken and Allen Hopper of San Francisco, will
     have an opportunity to rebut the government's arguments on this
     point.

     In response to pressure from the commercial broadcaster's lobby,
     the National Association of Broadcasters (N.A.B.), the FCC has in
     recent months been stepping up its campaign of harassment against
     the thousands of micro radio stations now on the air in this
     country. Hiken commented "The broadcast industry is clearly afraid
     of these little community stations which are speaking truth to its
     power. In trying to do the N.A.B.�s bidding, the FCC demonstrates
     that it is nothing but an enforcement arm of the commercial
     broadcast industry and the multi-national corporations which own
     it."

     The National Lawyers Guild's Committee on Democratic
     Communications has represented the Lawyers Guild, San Francisco's
     Media Alliance, and the Women's International News Gathering
     Services as a "Friend of the Court" (Amicus) in this case. In its
     Friend of the Court brief the Lawyers Guild pointed out that FCC
     regulations make it impossible for all but the very wealthy to
     even apply for a broadcast license. This, they told the Court, is
     the equivalent of saying anyone could speak from a soap box in the
     park, but the box had to be made of gold. Guild attorney Peter
     Franck commented "In an era when Disney owns ABC, the world's
     largest defense contractor owns NBC and CNN merges with Time which
     merges with Warner, and when 'public' broadcasting is told to get
     its money from corporations, micro radio may be our last best hope
     for democracy on the air ways." He continued "Judge Wilken's
     decision is a courageous rejection of the Government's attempt to
     use a legal Catch-22 to avoid facing the fact that its ban on
     micro radio flies in the face of the Constitution."

     The legal team representing Dunifer and the Amicae are very
     pleased with Judge Wilken's reasoned and thorough decision denying
     the FCC's motion to have the case resolved without a trial on the
     merits. For almost 70 years, the FCC has catered solely to the
     interests of commercial corporate giants, through their
     mouthpiece, the National Association of Broadcasters. These are
     the pirates, who have stolen the airwaves from the American
     people, and who represent corporate interests valued at more than
     60 billion dollars. Only the Pentagon, the Silicon Valley and the
     transportation industries possess the financial wallop represented
     by the NAB and its constituents.

     Judge Wilken's decision represents a vision of what it would be
     like for the American people to be given back their own voice. The
     decision suggests the likely unconstitutionality of the entire
     regulatory structure underlying the FCC's ban on low power radio.
     It forewarns of the total failure of that agency to carry out its
     statutory obligation to regulate the airwaves in the public
     interest -- that is, in the interest of the American people,
     rather than the media monopolies that control our airwaves.

     The legal team welcomes the opportunity to have a court identify
     the real pirates of the airwaves -- not the thousands of
     microradio broadcasters who seek to communicate with the people of
     their communities, but rather the billionaire commercial interests
     that control the airwaves as if they own them. Is it General
     Electric, Westinghouse and the Disney Corporation that have the
     right to control local community radio, or is that a right that
     belongs to all of the American people, regardless of economic
     status?

     FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT:

     Peter Franck, Counsel for Amicus
     415-415-995-5055
     pfranck at hbmvr.com (days)
     pfranck at a.crl.com(evs, wknds)
     http://www.368Hayes.com/nlg.cdc.html

     Alan Korn, Counsel for Amicus
     415-362-5700
     aakorn at igc.org

     Stephen Dunifer, Free Radio Berkeley
     415-644-3779
     frbspd at crl.com
     http://www.freeradio.org

     Louis Hiken
     Counsel for Stephen Dunifer
     415-575-3220
     hiken at igc.org
     http://www.368Hayes.com

     Allen Hopper
     Counsel for Stephen Dunifer
     415-575-3222
     lazlo at igc.org
     http://www.368Hayes.com

TO STEPHEN DUNIFER/FREE RADIO BERKELEY INFORMATION PAGE

TO FREE RADIO BERKELEY LEGAL BATTLE PAGE

TO NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD INFORMATION PAGE

TO THE OFFICIAL NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD WEB SITE

TO NLG COMMITTEE ON DEMOCRATIC COMMUNICATIONS PAGE

TO FREE RADIO BERKELEY WEB SITE

BACK TO LAW OFFICES AT 368 HAYES STREET




From attila at hun.org  Fri Nov 14 01:39:01 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:39:01 +0800
Subject: MEGAVAPOUR ENCRYPTION [was CHALLENGE to Meganet VME...]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971108112126.006dab28@ibcnet.com>
Message-ID: <19971114.035251.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971108:1121, in <3.0.32.19971108112126.006dab28 at ibcnet.com>, 
    Matrix Encryption <matrix at meganet.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>Dear Atilla,
>
    normally I would not waste my time replying to an 
    illiterate, ignorant flim-flam artist with a forced 
    error [sic] of superiority to hide his/her paranoid 
    insecurity.

    first: I am not, and have never been, a coward hiding 
    behind a nym. I have been known by "Attila T. Hun" for
    more years than you have probably been alive. thus, the
    interNIC record:

    20:56:01 attila 501-> whois hun.org

        Attila T. Hun (HUN5-DOM)
        31 N. 700 E. Suite 134
        St. George, UT 84770-3208
        US

        Domain Name: HUN.ORG
        ...
        Record last updated on 31-Jul-97.

    AND

    Welcome to Primenet, Attila T. Hun
    Your last login was Thu Nov 13 22:19:11 PST 1997 
    USER     TTY FROM              LOGIN@  IDLE WHAT
    attila   p3  attila.infowest.  7:02AM     0 w attila
    processing mail folders 
                msgs   lines   chars message group
                  21    2157   98506 .incoming_mail
    
    00:02:25 attila 501-> finger attila at primenet.com

        [primenet.com]
        Login: attila                           Name: Attila T. Hun
        Directory: /user/a/attila               Shell: /bin/bash
        Mailbox last read:    Fri Nov 14 00:02 (MST)
        Plan:
        
            ENCODE ALL MESSAGES WITH 2048 BIT SIGNAL KEY: 2048/463141C9
        
    now, all that being said...  it has been asked...  
    
    "attila, who the fuck are you?" 
    
        "just nobody, I guess;
        
        "well, let's see...
        
        "I have a Piled higher and Deeper in Information Techniques 
            from Zuerich (undergrad at Harvard in dual honors
            physical chemistry);
        
        "I have been around since before the dawn of arpanet, probably
            even longer than TCMay; in fact, I was born before Franklin
            D. Roosevelt dusted off Wendell L. Willkie;
        
        "I've never held a job;
        
        "but, I have personally coded more than a few 250,000+ line
            packages, which made me quite comfortable at one time, even
            if more than one did go down the black hole (along with
            countless other projects like the bit-slice hardware and
            firmware to replace B3500s in missile silos);
                 
        "I have been the hatchet man in a few bleeding tech 
            recoveries;
        
        "I have been detained for crypto offenses by the Feds;
        
        "I have been detained for 'treasonable' technology export; and,
            I have been charged;
        
        "a long time ago, in a land far, far away, there was more than
            one tour in "deep-deep black" special operations; the
            battalion commanding officer for the 'Let's do some serious
            killing...' permanently vacant eyes, misfits;
        
        "a combat chopper pilot; an instrument rated multi-engine pilot;
            a rider of a 102 cu.  in.  115+ mph qtr. miler hawg on the
            street; "plus a few other reasons to guarantee an
            autobiography to be found on the fiction shelf.
        
        "if you really want to know...  just play Hotel California,
            but I live in the high desert country of Utah with a 
            bunch of gun nuts (only state in the Union where opening
            day of the hunting season is a state holiday).
        
        "So, who the 'fuck' am I?  Just another aging 300 lb gorilla,
        
        "Oh, yeah, I forgot, I hold a license to practice before the
            court in a couple European countries...
        
        "So, who am I, really?
        
        "Nobody, I guess, just attila!
        
        "you probably will not be last, you may not be next, 
            but you are certainly too late to have been first."
        
                --attila
         
>Youe letter show us that you might not be aware of all the facts
>surrounding VME.

    now, let's get several important points straight out front:

    1.  matriculate in a liberal arts program for English grammar 
        and composition; your writing is unintelligible, often 
        contradictory  --no class.

    2.  until you publish the algorithm[s] and the implementation
        code, you do not have a product, you have "vapourware" in
        the encryption business --your trust model reputation
        capital is zero.

    3.  anybody can propose a specification; but over the last
        25 years less than a handful of the hundreds proposed, 
        have been bullet proof --so far; they can still fail.

    4.  a 2^20 keylength is an absurd dimension, more than
        120Kbytes; the efficiency for an average 2K memo is
        less than 2%. just handling the data stream is a load
        on both the processor[s] and the communication link[s].

    if you are still with me...

    1.  I do not believe your claim that you have placed your
        encryption with 250 of the top software companies;
        there are not 250 software companies in the world who 
        could afford your outrageous $1 million base licensing
        be --particularly for what appears to be vapourware.
        Nobody in this business places that level of financial
        commitment on the PASS line in las vegas.  and to pay 
        this fee annually? well, dreams are still permissable;
        but outside of that forum, your hypothesis is a dream.

            corollary: the way to make money is to sell millions
            of licenses at $10, not get down on your knees and
            pray that someone will lay $1 million on you for 
            something which has not been proven in the trenches.

    2.  I do not believe you _ever_ had the $1 million prize 
        money for your alleged contest.

    3.  I do not believe you even have a working model or beta
        release of the software.

    4.  I do not believe you are doing anything other than 
        putting us all on.

    now, if we can get past the above problems for YOU to solve,
    and/or demonstrate the efficacy thereof, to US, the final
    "problem" in your demonstrated inability to communicate can
    be addressed:

    I did NOT ask to participate in your EXPIRED CHALLENGE; that 
    was obviously a farcical expression of egotistical
    tomfoolery or shenanigans --maybe even hooliganism. that
    not withstanding, you never had the money to pay a claim; 
    your ego told you there would never be a claim.

    I DID CHALLENGE YOU to publish your algorithms, source code, 
    and implementations to the group for evaluation. 

        if your hypothesis survives a rigorous exercise and 
        proof of its claims, you will be a hero.

        if your hypothesis, which from this perceptive point
        appears to be vapourware, goes down in flames, you 
        will be no worse a fool than any of the last crop of 
        bulletproof pretenders.

    and that, my friend is living in the real world, not even
    the fast lane.

    the rest of your letter is hokey. ...it's your move.

        attila out...

    ------------ balance of your original drivel follows -----------

>Well, lets start:

>1) The is no "secret" behind the VME flowchart - we have filed with the US
>patent office, and when it's approved, anybody in the world can see the
>flowcharts and diagrams.

>2) We have given a select 250 major software corporations ALL of the
>flowcharts, diagrams and even a WORKING COPY of the VME application.

>3) Why don't we do the same with the general public ? a copule of reasons:

>	a) Due to VME key size (1 million bits) we are forbidden by the US export laws
>to put
>	   it on the Internet, which is a world wide platform (see Paul Zimerman & PGP
>case).
>	b) For the above reasons we can not put any of the flowcharts, diagrams or a
>demo of
>	   of the application without violating the law and getting Big Bro real
>upset.
>	c) VME is currently targeted at the large corporations and a site licensing
>fee is
>	   currently a $1,000,000 annualy, so we have no "General Use" version for
>public use.

>But, as I mentioned before, the top 250 software corporations DO HAVE the
>flowcharts, diagrams and a working copy of VME. Therefore, we do have a team of
>the leading cryptographers working on VME to credit or discredit our claims,
>and that was the challenge all about to begin with.

>Thank you for your interest in VME.

>Saul Backal,
>Project Manager.

p.s. - I've noticed too late of the title to your email - just for your
knowledge, the million dollars challenge have ended May 15,1997 and the
current challenge bear no monetary prize.

Take Care,

Saul.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNGwYjrR8UA6T6u61AQHMTQH9HWjpk7vS6YfvyXRgQdy70X4YoptHA2Q4
asWcwSr962+JHNqbNPEgaBJbZWT4vesR+NsOtOCUNy4ylatwO3WeLA==
=ymMn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 02:08:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:08:28 +0800
Subject: Hyperlinks case settles at door of court
Message-ID: <199711141000.LAA02050@basement.replay.com>



Bill Stewart wrote:
> >The Shetland Times case has been settled - links will be permitted with
> >certain conditions
> >See http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/headline/97nov/settled/settled.html

> And it was even settled reasonably, and without setting new bad UK case law.

  People acting reasonably and settling their differences without
resorting to promoting strict new laws enforced by armed agents
of the government?
  The end of the world _really_is_ drawing close, isn't it?
[That wasn't an earthquake...that was the people in Hell, beginning
 to shiver, from the cold.]

BrrrrMonger
 
> (For those who don't remember the case, the Shetland News and
> Shetland Times are Scottish newspapers with web pages.
> The News was linking from its page to some of the Times's stories
> without pointing out that the stories were in their competitor's paper,
> and the Times sued them.  In the settlement they agree that the
> News may link to the Times's pages, and that they'll only do so
> with visible indications that they're doing so.)
>                                 Thanks!
>                                         Bill
> Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
> Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639







From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 14 02:09:24 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:09:24 +0800
Subject: Progressive Government Programs That WORK!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711140815.AAA07701@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <346C16C5.74F5@dev.null>



sampler-request at lmboyd.com wrote:
> 
> ======================================================
>  The powerful William the Conqueror became the even more
> powerful Duke of Normandy, and thereafter enforced the
> Truce of God. It forbade violence on Mondays, Tuesdays,
> Thursdays and Fridays. This cut murderers down to a
> three-day week.
> ==============================================
> 
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 02:22:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:22:28 +0800
Subject: Key Signing
Message-ID: <199711141003.LAA02307@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 01:21 AM 11/10/1997 +0100, Necessarily Knot, ME wrote:
> >I am including the key (below) for my new nym, which has not been used
> >before, and would like for people to sign it and send the signed key
> >to the list.
> >This way, people will know by the signature, that it is, indeed:
> >Necessarily Knot, ME
> 
> This was bizarre - what did you do to create the key and the ASCII version?
> I imported the key into my PGP 5.0, and saw the double-key icon,
> which says I have the private key as well as the public key,
> and sure enough, it was willing to let me change the passphrase
> (which was previously not set.)

  I was testing the procedure outlined in Epilogue 5 of InfoWar
on a friend's machine and, sure enough, I got PGP 2.62 to spit
out the private key he had created as Necessarily Knott, ME.
 
> I'm not sure how comfortable I am signing a key which has the
> private keys made public - so I signed it, and revoked it,
> and you're welcome to the signed revocation certificate :-)

  Perhaps we have inadvertently taken key-signing to a new level.
i.e. - develop software that will allow a user to have another
user sign the key and then, when revoked, the software allows
the user to sign with the revoked key, but not to recreate it
or change it in any way.
  The software could be marketed to cryptographers with low
self-esteem.
 
> The keyserver says it accepted the certificate, but doesn't
> find it when I query it for the key, but then it did that to me
> earlier today, so I'm not sure if it's there or not.
> (It's the server at http://www.pgp.com/keyserver/pks-lookup.cgi .)

  I added the secret key to the keyserver, and it also said it
had accepted it, but does not show it on a query.
 
> The KeyID was 0x61C747B1 - 512-bit RSA
> 
> - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> 
> mQBNAzRmZWoAAAECAMnJrqd/TERCLeFscdgNvwVxrVG4tRm0VThMEXXkctCGMaUD
> jcETxcV0ZseRUcyUKfqlLd3CRsIwClozlWHHR7EABRGJAFUDBSA0bAHUClozlWHH
> R7EBARcXAf9oQLI0CvkPpxPLcUgdlolZ6J9Y5f5AAeX169o6SPtxaJBaHp0C39+0
> h4EimgD+TB4kiCWvklDhkTDckAxweIjbtBVOZWNlc3NhcmlseSBLbm90dCwgTUWJ
> AJUDBRA0bAGS+fMmybV+y8UBAYRCA/99H8XcS1h0X0l2vQ5zPqmOSiYQ0mfi5dXZ
> iMOlqlnFzVyus3L6sIr9X7Xyzg8emaNfLslQBqiagLRyVVc6e5wTVSXOKQoMzqTm
> s26OA/e+/1oZHx3mCgrJm2YWyjOVm8Vx1BwbrFSgTVgdiaKbeVKrj9Zbx178BYqs
> Gd1RHLXjWQ==
> =ANSy
> - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> 
> But hey, since I've got this bogus key around, might as well sign
> something with it :-)
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQBVAwUBNGwEogpaM5Vhx0exAQGupAH/duqAF915VFqxcFHk3wlmXzmU2DDQv9nP
> 6FM0rU2MSfiFmfQu76dBAyriBAdEzk1Ry+oyZiWIlixGZYbLaXLU8Q==
> =5ZQC
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  Yep. That confirms that your message was sent by someone who
is Neccesarily Knott, ME.

  Took a few days for you to reply to the message. Have you been
waiting for the wee hours to see if you could narrow down the
list of senders by seeing who is online at the time you receive
a reply?
  I could add latency to this anonymous email, but that would
be tacky.

Necessarily Knott, ME


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNGwftQpaM5Vhx0exAQGYzAH9HMbEev5KxJs9cqzYm4wbXv8+7Atxx5D/
gymQS2nhxp2aupDIewq9JkzK++VN7JAZJqyexrimiOh7ndvwI7ZOvA==
=H6JV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From carolann at censored.org  Fri Nov 14 02:39:31 1997
From: carolann at censored.org (Carol Anne Cypherpunk)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:39:31 +0800
Subject: Nader on CBS
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971114042846.006fcb48@pop.primenet.com>



Ralph was just on CBS "Up-To-The-Minute", bashing MS....
I think it is running every hour, so you might still be able
to get it on the West Coast.

I wonder though, if all this "Bill-Bashing" is somehow
causing problems in the financial markets. Yet "Bill-Bashing"
in the political sense doesn't seem  to have done that.
hmmmm...

http://uttm.com/drive/  is their site, and there is a RealAudio clip
available for the day owls.....


Member Internet Society  - Certified Mining Co. Guide  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann at censored.org   206.165.50.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************
Will lobby Congress for Food & Expenses!!!






From 203.148.250.130  Fri Nov 14 19:01:12 1997
From: 203.148.250.130 (203.148.250.130)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:01:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE SOFTWARE TURN$ COMPUTER$ INTO CA$H MACHINE$!!
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@nowhere.com>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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in the message.  Upon receiving we will remove your name from our mailing list.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 14 03:38:11 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:38:11 +0800
Subject: MEGAVAPOUR ENCRYPTION [was CHALLENGE to Meganet VME...]
Message-ID: <2da73c065126ecb50fd187bcda48a502@anon.efga.org>



Attila T. Hun wrote:
> on or about 971108:1121, in <3.0.32.19971108112126.006dab28 at ibcnet.com>,
>     Matrix Encryption <matrix at meganet.com> was purported to have
>     expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:
 
> >Dear Atilla,

>     1.  I do not believe your claim that you have placed your
>         encryption with 250 of the top software companies
>     2.  I do not believe you _ever_ had the $1 million prize
>         money for your alleged contest.
>     3.  I do not believe you even have a working model or beta
>         release of the software.
>     4.  I do not believe you are doing anything other than
>         putting us all on.

I shook down their entire web site and could find no indication that
these fuckers even existed before Oct. 30/97. (Shortly before their
announcement of the supposed million dollar encryption challenge
that expired in May/97, which no cryptographer I know has ever 
seemed to have heard of.)
It is also interesting that there seems to be no actual mention of
real, live people connected to their corporation, whom one can
contact. (Although there is contact information for their press
agents.)

Meganet is either one of the best Bad-Encryption spoofs to the list,
to date, or one of the best Bad-Encryption scams going.
Maybe Maganet was formed by the press agent that DataETRetch fired.
That would explain why they only seemed to have offered their
challenge to corporations with no cypherpunks in them.

I will shortly be announcing my Million Dollar Encryption Challenge
which, unfortunately, expired on Jan 1, 1754.
(However, if you check the Document Source on the files at my web
site, they will confirm that the HTML document announcing the
challenge was created in 1753.)

BaitrickS MegaNut <bs at meganut.com>
"Navel Ho' encryption products since 1753."







From goddesshera at juno.com  Fri Nov 14 03:56:10 1997
From: goddesshera at juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:56:10 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <19971114.044546.8151.39.goddesshera@juno.com>



On Wed, Nov 12, 1997 at 01:16:36AM -0800, Blanc wrote:
> Kent Krispin wrote:
> 
> >Tim, like many, rationalizes his simmering anger by blaming it all on
> >the "bastids in the gubmit".  But it doesn't take much insight to see 
> >that there is something a little deeper going on, something a little 
> >sad. 
> ..................................................
> 
> 
> By jove, I think I've "got" it -  there *is* something deeper going on
here:
> 
> Tim is really an undercover 'narc' -  through his provocative remarks
he's
> actually encouraging all the violent terrorists on the list to come out
of
> their lurking holes and reveal themselves.  Then he's going to turn
them
> all in for a cash reward, which he'll use to buy more high-tech stock.
> 
> Yeah, that's it!

Could be, almost.  He wouldn't be a narc -- he would work for another
agency -- and he doesn't have to turn them in: they reveal themselves. 

In any case, he serves the function, whether deliberately or not. 




This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera at juno.com>.






From frissell at panix.com  Fri Nov 14 04:22:13 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:22:13 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb091012f0380@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971114070820.03820250@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:11 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>> But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I
>> thought.
>>
>> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
>
>was *not* a threat against a judge?
>
>Right, Tim, if you say so.

The phrase "capital crime" (literaly "head crime") just means "worst crime".  
It does not imply punishment.  Punishment for capital crimes varies with time 
and place.  Saying someone is guilty of an infamous crime is not a death 
threat.  It's not even a death threat to say, "I think X should be arrested, 
tried by a court, and gassed."  You are merely expressing opinions about 
criminal guilt and perhaps capital punishment but you are not making a 
threat.

"Hey, hey, LBJ.  How many kids did you kill today?"

Tim was *not* threatening to set up his own court and try anyone himself and 
carry out a punishment.

"You shall receive more than you deserve.  You shall receive justice."

>> You sicken me.
>
>Um, well... Take a pill, maybe?
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga

Bob, Tim's is just a different approach.  It shouldn't sicken you.  Tim and I 
are members of the same birth cohort and I think you are a little bit younger 
but it seems to me that he has absorbed the major message of modern education 
better.  You know -- Multi Culturalism.  Or as Mao said "let a thousand 
flowers bloom".  Tim's a very Multi Culti guy.  Individuation.  Big time.  
Micro Cultures.  He believes in letting other people explore the rich 
diversity of their lives and experiences as long as they let him do the same. 
 He's trying to make sure that everyone is aware that Multi Culturalism is 
*real*.  Too many proponents of same treat it as some bland mush.  Tim is 
keeping them aware of the spice.

Or as my grandfather said "It doesn't matter what your race, creed or color 
is.  You can still be a son of a bitch."  True equality requires true 
liberty.

DCF


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Charset: noconv

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+vrcdrU8PeAZuVL27BKa0tNiDn8i0jV0iDO0UXeiaLe++8Cympz+l2Y/HRoJAkw3
Js4MGNmUi0cYKnZFbqMUBRbLSmbFJz1UMBqUPkAHHxHnwwvpDVnkqjoPj+SYcJw+
AqfrWO2s0PQ=
=0gH9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 04:33:26 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:33:26 +0800
Subject: Key Signing
Message-ID: <199711141219.NAA14497@basement.replay.com>



Bill Stewart wrote:
> I'm not sure how comfortable I am signing a key which has the
> private keys made public - so I signed it, and revoked it,
> and you're welcome to the signed revocation certificate :-)
> 
> The keyserver says it accepted the certificate, but doesn't
> find it when I query it for the key, but then it did that to me
> earlier today, so I'm not sure if it's there or not.
> (It's the server at http://www.pgp.com/keyserver/pks-lookup.cgi .)
> 
> The KeyID was 0x61C747B1 - 512-bit RSA

The PGP Keyserver could not find the key when accessed from the
PGP web site (Find a Public Key), but when requesting it from
inside PGP 5.0, it retrieved the key, revoking the key on my
secret key ring, in the process.

Necessarily Knott, ME
(Although it _may_ be me, since I have not signed the message...
 Or is it the other way around? This is getting confusing.)






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 05:08:48 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:08:48 +0800
Subject: Key Signing
Message-ID: <199711141254.NAA17633@basement.replay.com>



Bill Stewart wrote:

> I'm not sure how comfortable I am signing a key which has the
> private keys made public - so I signed it, and revoked it,
> and you're welcome to the signed revocation certificate :-)

BTW, I was farting around and discovered that I could change the
password on a revoked secret key. This means that someone can crack
the password on your revoked secret key if they have access to it.
This would make your new key vulnerable if you used the same password.

I suppose this qualifies as PGP trivia, but if it saves the life of
just one fascist dicator...

!Knott (Who's dare?)






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov 14 21:23:05 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:23:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Developing Non-Commercial Products with the PGPsdk!
Message-ID: <v04002745b092d91e02e3@[139.167.130.248]>



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:23:46 -0800
To: mac crypto list <mac-crypto at vmeng.com>
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie at vmeng.com>
Subject: Developing Non-Commercial Products with the PGPsdk!
Sender: <mac-crypto at vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
Status: U


--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:22:04 -0800
To: vinnie at vmeng.com
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie at pgp.com>
Subject: Developing Non-Commercial Products with the PGPsdk
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Attention:  freeware and non-commercial developers.

PGP would like to encourage the development and deployment of PGP
Secured freeware or other non-commercial products and will grant you a
licence to develop to the PGPsdk and distribute the PGPsdk shared
libraries with your non-commercial application. We have added a
special section for  freeware or non-commercial developers to the
PGPsdk website http://www.pgp.com/sdk/


 Shareware developers take note: PGP hasn't  forgoten about you. we
are working on a licence agreement forS hareware or small developers
too. Stay Tunned!

________________________________________________________________________
_
PGP Developer Support	    main: 415.572.0430       Pretty Good
Privacy, Inc.
                                                     2121 S. El Camino
Real
<sdkinfo at pgp.com>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/     San Mateo, CA
94403

DH Key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xE12C71C1
________________________________________________________________________
__




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNGunuIjx9Q4HClz/EQKWRACfXp9rkKs+OFu5jnl3Y3nXdn2WqIcAoOFr
/+NBznWGPMHC/mPIP6ZUfCE6
=Mv4V
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--- end forwarded text




Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 3F903472C3AF622D5D918D9BD8B100090B3EF042

     "You can get a lot more with a smile and a gun
     then a smile, alone."
			- Al Capone

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From vince at offshore.com.ai  Fri Nov 14 05:27:03 1997
From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:27:03 +0800
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114091443.32761B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114091457.32758D-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>




> > It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika
> > is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
> > it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?
> 
> Comet CypherPunk Bop-Shoo-Bop will be approaching close to earth
> in late 1999 to drop off Jesus and pick up the CypherPunks.
> We're meeting at Tim's place.
> {Anyone who makes it to the pick-up site get's a T-shirt that says,
>  "Darwin was right!"}

A splinter group of cypherpunks will be taking a boat from Anguilla to the
volcanic island of Montserrat for a religious experience.  The prophecy is
that at 2:33 during the afternoon of Feb 26th, 1998 the island will be
consumed by total darkness. 

T-shirts expected.  Watch http://fc98.ai/ for details. 

   -- Vince

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Vincent Cate                           Offshore Information Services
 Vince at Offshore.com.ai                  http://www.offshore.com.ai/
 Anguilla, BWI                          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From nobody at neva.org  Fri Nov 14 05:40:24 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:40:24 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711141334.HAA25416@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org>
>This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the
>cypherpunks.  The group is becoming just another militia front,
>identified with racism and white supremacy, applauding violent murder
>of government agents, one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.
>Its original purpose all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned
>by the hatred flowing from its leader.

What would be the most effective way of managing the problem you
perceive?

Probably by writing the kinds of articles you would like to see on the
list.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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4VcIfgZo/xQrQcb5HjMIj6F1mJ2modxqM4o33/SqKjceMZxGKPh3lmzraiogM7TS
V/saJqc0hS4Dx7FheUeA6l6WO1vlLmDBgWBF6Wza4F2finYdviB7YOKA2PW9Qm9w
uC1SQEO90mZfNHbQPYUAFXmVMSf9fvLbJL273YViV8NDWI6Fgca9gc5MZKuOyv2G
1IreweSHPfJLi0005bMKFrQWdMW+0DPUBoDTXLAzL87b9P7oRL+iDdrGqF9tc2H8
SJQ8WZpi2/tCMK15UQyNkFydm3gS29wjhToZQWK07T18SC6tDqcpww==
=vTAR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From nobody at neva.org  Fri Nov 14 05:41:01 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:41:01 +0800
Subject: Find the Mole in the Mirror
Message-ID: <199711141333.HAA25291@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Young wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>The right thing to do is to assume there are a certain number of moles
>>around and engineer your activities accordingly.  If you really think
>>you can Find The Mole, then I would think your first step is to keep
>>quiet about what you are doing.
>
>Like, if you will, Monty Cantsin, the venerable generic pseudonym for
>sub rosa strategems. You fingering yourselves, Monty?
>
>If you haven't been IDed as a mole here yet, you will, probably by
>your own woefully engineered statements.
>
>All of us are moles for one ideology or another, maybe for several if
>the blowing wind tosses us that way. What's the point of being here
>if not for relishment of deceitful faux combat, to draw out the enemy
>(enemies) as Tim and Bob admirably display in their artful allure of
>ulterior motivated peacemakers and condescendors, me for one, as
>Declan love jousts CDT, as many us pisswind DC, NWO, ZOG, Armenians,
>Nipponese.

No, I mean a real mole.  The kind that gets people killed or
imprisoned.

Actually, the nature of this particular group imposes some twists on
Find The Mole.  If this were some church group, and we tapped the
phone of a suspected mole, and all we could get is 3DES encrypted
speech, we could be pretty sure we found one.  But that doesn't work
around here.  Anytime you see somebody doing something unusual, it is
just as likely to mean it's Just Another Cypherpunk Who Is Up To
Something.

Likewise, operators of a mole will have a terrible time determining
mole loyalty.  A problem with informants is that they sometimes
discover the target group is made up of pretty reasonable people and
go native.  And since using remailers is part of the cover...

Moles can burrow in two directions.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNGtwoZaWtjSmRH/5AQFW1Af9Fu1B4bSiUbIiJuJnE48Xv/qScqldFqzT
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5ceDScGKtbp5uLtyaW0MbRvYPhY9RTvCl4IQbu++6AojiGd6/JxJFHD8L7XOlWV6
/IgfJ4r3aldRXZQpo+jTN2BL4HuvcrUSbBcj4H/rT7iZTS+Id1ZaR2FwxT01+z1g
NaNxjaa83zlCyIUfRydPCmUPzk1lBjVQ3D6FKJjQ2A/PpQAly0Ynz6WQEYqE8h5N
vA7vlm7W48kDS86DvK7RCaSe0w19BHcWQxyhDprAYUQ+XIrD2jZNaA==
=mzrr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From declan at well.com  Fri Nov 14 06:20:38 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:20:38 +0800
Subject: Appeals court says CDA blocks liability for Internet providers
Message-ID: <v03007809b0920a3120da@[204.254.21.61]>




http://caselaw.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=4th&navby=case&no=971523P

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:14:23 -0500
From: Patrick Carome <pcarome at WILMER.COM>
Subject:      Fourth Circuit Rules in AOL v. Zeran

        I want to bring to the attention of this group an important
     decision issued yesterday by the United States Court of Appeals for
     the Fourth Circuit in a case that I argued on behalf of America
     Online, Inc.  The Fourth Circuit affirmed the decision in Zeran v.
     America Online, Inc. that has been a frequent topic of discussion in
     this forum.  In particular, the Fourth Circuit held that Section 230
     of the Communications Decency Act (47 U.S.C. � 230) "plainly immunizes
     computer service providers like AOL from liability for information
     that originates with third parties."  In an opinion written for a
     unanimous panel by Chief Judge Harvey Wilkinson, the court affirmed a
     ruling by the United States District Court for Eastern District of
     Virginia that is reported at 958 F. Supp. 1124 (1997).  The case
     concerned the question of whether AOL may be liable for allegedly
     being unreasonably slow to remove a series of allegedly defamatory
     messages posted on AOL message boards by an unidentified third party.
     The Court of Appeals based its ruling on Section 230(c)(1), which
     states that "No provider or user of an interactive computer service
     shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information
     provided by another information content provider."  The Court of
     Appeals also rejected the argument that Section 230 should not apply
     in this case because the messages at issue had been posted before the
     statute was enacted.







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Fri Nov 14 06:40:48 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:40:48 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971113183601.846A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




Uk News:

Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green 
Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the 
magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights 
activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause 
of animal liberation.

Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Fri Nov 14 06:44:29 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:44:29 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <199711121324.PAA14037@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971113125835.725B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> This 19-year old was way out of her league and not at all fit for 
> child care activities. 

Obviously, but this isn`t the point in question.

> I am a firm believer that baby care for 3 year 
> olds and less should be licensed.  The requirements for the license 
> would be minimal.  It just merely shows that you understand that babies 
> less than 1 year of age often cry--some hardly at all, others damn near 
> all the time--and that 97% of the time there is a reason that can be 
> found and the solution implemented, and the other 3% of the time the 
> reason is beyond our understanding, but things will just seem to take 
> care of themselves.  

Wrong, there is no justification for licensing whatsoever, I suggest 
parents taking on carers for their children agree a responsibility
distribution for the welfare of the child, and have the good sense not to 
employ inept unqualified childcare staff. The parents are much to blame 
in the death of the child, particularly in this case because they were 
both qualified doctors and did not notice the child was unwell.
I can see a motivation for wanting better regulation, but it is attacking 
the situation in the wrong way, more laws never help. A voluntary 
organisation for childcare workers, admission to which depended on 
fulfilling the requirements you outline above for your licence idea, 
would be useful, concerned parents could simple ensure their chosen 
applicant was a member of the organisation before hiring them. Mandatory 
licensing is wrong.

> The licensing procedure might also be a way of 
> checking if you have the minimal temperment to deal with infants and 
> small children.

No, this is of no value, I don`t have the right temperament to deal with 
children, I am too easily made angry by them, this does not indicate I 
would harm a child, I simply have the sense to recognise I am not suited 
to caring for children.
I do not see anyway how such a character judgement might be made, and by who?

> What about the judge?  His first purpose is to make sure the law is 
> followed, especially with respect to trial procedure.  But with the law 
> is JUSTICE!  It has always been my belief that the ultimate goal of 
> these sacred occasions is justice. 

And justice cannot be served when an appointed official can overturn or 
reduce a conviction, only an appeal should do this. Sure, if the jurors had 
ignored proper procedure it is the duty of the judge to declare a 
mistrial, that is entirely different from reducing a charge and basically 
letting a convicted felon go free.

> I am rather curious to know where public opinion lies in the UK, just 
> to get a fix on cultural differences.

The opinion is generally very simplistic, most people think she 
didn`t do anything, and ask most people if she shook the child and they 
will say she didn`t, even though Woodward herself doesn`t deny doing so.
Most people don`t have any defined opinion on the judicial aspect of the 
case as regards the actions of the judge, other than to be pleased he 
freed her. The UK media spin has been very favourable to the Woodwards.
I also think there is a certain amount of truth in the suggestion that 
the defendant was convicted by the jury because of her traditional 
British "stiff upper lip" reserve, wheras the Eappen family knew just how 
to play the court with the usual American "Victim impact statement" 
designed to be emotive and persuasive to the judge in gaining a high 
sentence, of course in this case it had little effect. 
I don`t know if you have seen a well publicised British trial (cameras 
aren`t allowed into court rooms here so many never get to be high profile), 
but although the system is much the same as regards proper procedure, the 
atmosphere is entirely different. Something like the Eappen victim 
statement would make a UK jury sick, and probably encourage an aquittal.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From jito at eccosys.com  Fri Nov 14 06:55:24 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:55:24 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711141442.XAA00592@eccosys.com>



At 15:39 97/11/13 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:

>   I tried to tell my fellow CypherPunks that it was a mistake to 
> include that racist, white supremacist cypherpunks-j list in with 
> the other CDR lists, but they still let those slant-eyed white
> supremacists join our Mary band, skirts and all.

Actually, cypherpunks-j is not connected to the CDR lists.
I have made a local distribution of the cypherpunks list
called cypherpunks-e, but there currently only 2 subscribers.
I wonder why... ;-P

Cypherpunks-j and the meetings in Tokyo are focused more on
writing code and less on stroking and beating each other.

We were going to call the list something else, but Eric Hughes
attended one of our meetings and convinced us to call ourselves
cypherpunks... maybe that was a stupid decision.

But, I suppose chaos is good. For you and for us. It's always
nice to be reminded that racisms in the US is still alive
and active. Sometime I forget and almost identify with you
folks.

Oh and by the way:

Article 21 of the Constitution of Japan

Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press
and all other forms of expression are guaranteed.
2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of
any means of communication be violated. 

"nya nya na nya nya..."

 - Joi


--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 14 08:31:02 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:31:02 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <78ce81bf80f38ec4664ed8e4cdcd402f@anon.efga.org>



At 11:42 PM 11/14/97 +0900, Joichi Ito wrote:
>Oh and by the way:
>
>Article 21 of the Constitution of Japan
>
>Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press
>and all other forms of expression are guaranteed.
>2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of
>any means of communication be violated. 
>
>"nya nya na nya nya..."

Is that Japanese for "Wassenaar"?






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Nov 14 08:39:01 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:39:01 +0800
Subject: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <ee060f3a0e4bf55a83116f8e795b2216@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711141623.QAA03067@server.test.net>




f00fie writes:
> In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
> Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:
> 
>    main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}

Hey, challenge is on:

main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();} /* f00fies 44 char */
main(){((int(*)())"\360\017\307\310")();}
main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0,(*f)()=&i;f();}
main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
(*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
(*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */

Compiled with gcc.

(Note that I haven't tested them because I have an AMD k5 which
doesn't suffer from this bug -- perhaps someone with an Intel pentium
could try them).

Adam






From jim at mentat.com  Fri Nov 14 08:57:53 1997
From: jim at mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:57:53 +0800
Subject: smaller f00f.c
Message-ID: <9711141643.AA18973@mentat.com>



Adam says:
> Hey, challenge is on:
> 
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();} /* f00fies 44 char */
> main(){((int(*)())"\360\017\307\310")();}
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0,(*f)()=&i;f();}
> main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
> (*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */
> 
> Compiled with gcc.

long main=0xc8c70ff0;	/* also gcc; 21 chars, and not my invention */
Without the "long" you get a warning, but it compiles anyway... 16 chars.

	Jim Gillogly
	jim at acm.org






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 09:10:38 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:10:38 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <78ce81bf80f38ec4664ed8e4cdcd402f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab092257910a1@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:12 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
>At 11:42 PM 11/14/97 +0900, Joichi Ito wrote:
>>Oh and by the way:
>>
>>Article 21 of the Constitution of Japan
>>
>>Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press
>>and all other forms of expression are guaranteed.
>>2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of
>>any means of communication be violated.
>>
>>"nya nya na nya nya..."
>
>Is that Japanese for "Wassenaar"?

No. But close. Joichi Ito's keyboard is having that stuck key problem
again. What he meant to type was:


"nsa nsa nsa nsa nsa..."

Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn
from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as
an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges
were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 09:16:29 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:16:29 +0800
Subject: Pointer?
Message-ID: <199711141659.RAA14248@basement.replay.com>



I would like a pointer to the best source of information in regard
to export laws about PGP.
Please send the information privately encrypted to the key below.
(my address is included in the key)

Thanks

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0rIrq8heLg==
=/bSN
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From stutz at dsl.org  Fri Nov 14 09:26:49 1997
From: stutz at dsl.org (Michael Stutz)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:26:49 +0800
Subject: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <199711141623.QAA03067@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114120723.4898B-100000@devel.nacs.net>



On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> f00fie writes:
> > In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
> > Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:
> > 
> >    main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}
> 
> Hey, challenge is on:
> 
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();} /* f00fies 44 char */
> main(){((int(*)())"\360\017\307\310")();}
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0,(*f)()=&i;f();}
> main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
> (*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */
> 
> Compiled with gcc.


How about:

long main[]={0xc8c70ff0};

or even

main[]={0xc8c70ff0}; /* 21 chars */

Compiles with gcc, but I haven't tested it.






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Nov 14 09:46:08 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:46:08 +0800
Subject: Navajo Code Talkers
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b091a0d3e689@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <1kT6Fe17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tiny Timmy <tcmay at got.net> writes:
> Finally, there are a couple of Navajo lexicons and dictionaries now
> available, so the government has obviously not classified Navajo
> scholarship...nor could it.

They could try.  The Communist government of Mongolia couldn't come up
with any information worth classifying, so they made the locations of
the dinosaur bones (plentiful there) secret and even executed some locals
for "spying" (revealing to white devils where to dig for dinosaur bones).

Why is this any more silly than "classifying" the A-bomb recipes or
forbidding a college professor to explain crypto in his classroom?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com  Fri Nov 14 09:53:53 1997
From: FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:53:53 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749343D@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>



Bob Hettinga writes in reply ('>'):
>> If Tim believes that a judge has committed a capital crime, I want to
>> hear about it.
>
>Right. The judge made a decision that Tim thinks the judge should die
for.
>
>My point is not the fact of whether the judge committed an "executable"
>offense, or didn't. It was that Tim made a thinly veiled threat. To
wit, Tim
>implied that the Judge should be executed for his court decision. I'm
saying
>that guys with associates' degrees in "criminal justice" would love any
reason
>to make Tim a new wife of one of their permanent jail residents after
a, um,
>crack, like that, and Tim, more to the um, point, seems to, um, up the
ante,
>by sauntering down to the the jailhouse and pissing on the guard's
shoes.
>
>Metaphorically, of course. :-).

I think you're making a mountain out of a metaphor, here, Bob (sound of
language processor set on "puree"...)

In what seems to worry you about Tim, I see him just saying that if
things he thinks may come to pass, do come to pass, he isn't going to go
"quietly into that goodnight".  I suspect his view of what is coming is
influenced by where he lives (Corralitos, CA) just as yours is
influenced by your location (Boston, MA) and my viewpoint is necessarily
influenced by my location (Noblesville/Indianapolis, IN).  It seems to
me that a lot of social changes start on the West Coast, often including
those of a greater governmental powers nature -- Tim may actually have
more to worry about than you or me.  Or none of us may have these
worries *if* we make sure, in whatever ways we can, to influence others
to resist the continuing encroachment of governmental power upon
individual freedoms.  Plus I think (from what I can see):
* Tim likes to be prepared; and
* Tim finds weaponry intrinsically interesting;
so these elements enter his writing.


To make a long story short (too late!), when I read Tim saying that the
judge has committed a capital crime, I interpret that as he should be
tried, and if found guilty (as Tim thinks likely so), then he should
receive a severe punishment consistent with the nature of his crime.
Both Tim and you, Bob, write very clearly and coherently.  I have never
read anything that Tim has written that makes me think he is anywhere
near ready to make a "first strike" against government -- but if the
government chooses to act illegally and unconstitutionally against Tim,
he says he will defend himself as is his right.


I dunno... Sometimes, Bob, I think that you and Tim have so much trouble
because you are in such violent agreement about the importance of
cryptography...
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm at indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"






From remailer at htp.org  Fri Nov 14 09:56:32 1997
From: remailer at htp.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:56:32 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
Message-ID: <19971114173500.28409.qmail@nsm.htp.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Blanc wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>
>>Colorado state Senator Charles Duke, also in the studio audience,
>>spoke about the 10th Amendment Sovereignty Resolution, a modern
>>version of Magna Carta designed to force a constitutional showdown
>>with the federal government. 
>
>This sounds interesting!  This is what I had in mind, in that other thread
>about "What Will Revolution Look Like"

Be wary of the faux freedom advocates who hide behind the 10th.  Duke and
his ilk seek to pull the rug out from under the feds so as to impose their
own version of law on their "constituents": CDA-morality rammed down the
throats of hapless citizens living within the wrong borders.

In many cases, State Sovereignty is just another phrase for the "Petty
Bureaucrats Reempowerment Act": moral dictators hiding behind the flag
of freedom.

As for me, I'll take Individual Sovereignty over State Sovereignty on
any day.  The 9th Amendment states:

 "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be
  construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine what those
"others retained by the people" are.  (hint: I'm not talking about
Civil Rights)

>(In a silly mood, I could see a gathering of such supporters in a large,
>crowded courtroom, all wearing T-shirts saying, "It's *ShowTime* !!!" )

Given the public interest in Court TV and the OJ trials, it seems the US
justice system has become a form of entertainment.  Nothing wrong with
wearing a T-shirt that states the obvious.

How about an interactive TV show called "Kangaroo Court" that lets the
viewers at home be the jury?  "Press 1 to fry him, Press 2 for a slap
on the wrist, Press 3 for ... "

Nerthus

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From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Fri Nov 14 10:13:14 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:13:14 +0800
Subject: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114120723.4898B-100000@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <199711141815.NAA28804@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



Michael Stutz writes:
> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > f00fie writes:
> > > In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
> > > Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:
> > > 
> > >    main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}
> > 
> > Hey, challenge is on:
> > 
> > main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();} /* f00fies 44 char */
> > main(){((int(*)())"\360\017\307\310")();}
> > main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0,(*f)()=&i;f();}
> > main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> > main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
> > (*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> > (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */

> How about:
> 
> long main[]={0xc8c70ff0};
> 
> or even
> 
> main[]={0xc8c70ff0}; /* 21 chars */
> 
> Compiles with gcc, but I haven't tested it.

No need for an array, so my entry is:

int main=0xc8c70ff0; /* 20 chars */


Compiles and runs, core dumping with illegal instruction on my
Linux box (obviously, it's not a Pentium).


-- Jeff






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 10:15:24 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:15:24 +0800
Subject: Hyperlinks case settles at door of court
In-Reply-To: <199711141000.LAA02050@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb09233374b45@[207.167.93.63]>



At 3:00 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Bill Stewart wrote:
>> >The Shetland Times case has been settled - links will be permitted with
>> >certain conditions
>> >See http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/headline/97nov/settled/settled.html
>
>> And it was even settled reasonably, and without setting new bad UK case law.
>
>  People acting reasonably and settling their differences without
>resorting to promoting strict new laws enforced by armed agents
>of the government?
>  The end of the world _really_is_ drawing close, isn't it?
>[That wasn't an earthquake...that was the people in Hell, beginning
> to shiver, from the cold.]

Don't be so fast to applaud this agreement to "settle."

The "settlement" was at the point of a gun, figuratively. The lawsuit.

In the view of many legal experts, and most libertarians I know, one does
not have property rights to _footnotes_ or _pointers_.

Citing a URL is like saying "Read "War and Peace."" Or even giving its call
number in a library.

If some newspaper has URLs for anyone to access, and another newspaper
publishes those URLs, the situation is exact.

I will admit that the Web has made the metaphor of "looking something up"
now much easier. There is a _sense_ that clicking on a link "takes one
there" (to a place). There is a _sense_ that links embedded in a text or on
a page are the property of, or were created by, the author of the text or
page that included them.

This is clearly false, in most cases. People need to be educated about this.

"Settlements" of the sort here are not a good thing if they help establish
the precedent (I realize only court decisions will do that, formally) that
one must ask permission before including pointers, footnotes, references,
and URLs.

And there are many technical solutions. From password security to placement
of large banners in the destination URLs.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From jito at eccosys.com  Fri Nov 14 10:22:11 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:22:11 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4284] Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <78ce81bf80f38ec4664ed8e4cdcd402f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711141811.DAA01704@eccosys.com>



At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 9:12 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >At 11:42 PM 11/14/97 +0900, Joichi Ito wrote:
> "nsa nsa nsa nsa nsa..."
> 
> Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn
> from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as
> an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges
> were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.
> 
> --Tim May

True Tim, but we are working on ways of getting it shipped.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 10:22:33 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:22:33 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711141755.SAA20812@basement.replay.com>



Monty Cantsin wrote:

> Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org>
> >This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the
> >cypherpunks.  The group is becoming just another militia front,
> >identified with racism and white supremacy, applauding violent murder
> >of government agents, one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.
> >Its original purpose all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned
> >by the hatred flowing from its leader.
> 
> What would be the most effective way of managing the problem you
> perceive?
> 
> Probably by writing the kinds of articles you would like to see on the
> list.

If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.  How many people have
objected to Tim May's racist comments?  Only one or two.  How many objected
when William Geiger suggested that more nuclear bombs should have been
dropped on Japan?  None.  How many have objected to the notion that
residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed?  Hardly any.

At one time the cypherpunks stood for freedom of speech and protection of
privacy.  Today they stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and
murder, racism, homophobia, jingoism.

It's ironic to see that the kind of off-topic, flaming, irrelevant
posts which have caused such consternation in the past are now the norm.
Reasonable people have been largely driven off the list, leaving it to
supporters of violence and hate.

The sad thing is, this is all unnecessary.  The original conception was
that cryptography would allow people to protect the privacy of voluntary
interactions.  Laws forbidding voluntary transactions will be difficult
or impossible to enforce.  We will move into a world where there is far
more liberty and freedom for everyone.

There is no need to blast government agents' heads open.  There is no
need to nuke D.C., or Japan.  There is no need to disparage people of other
races and cultures.

Step back from this immersion in a culture of violence.  Draw the cloak
of privacy about your actions.  That is the true cypherpunk way.






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 10:27:40 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:27:40 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971113183601.846A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>



At 11:39 AM -0700 11/13/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>Uk News:
>
>Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
>Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
>magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
>The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights
>activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause
>of animal liberation.
>
>Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

This stifling of free speech, by both state and corporate interests, is a
trend spreadingl like wildfire in the Western world.

Libel, slander, defamation, damage, incitement, sedition, and obscenity
cases are squelching free speech. Publishers are held liable for the words
of others, and even distributors are held liable.

Even here on Cypherpunks we see toadies like Bob Hettinga fretting that our
words are going too far, that we must learn to police ourselves or the
police will be forced to do so.

(Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his upheld,
look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal charges.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From stutz at dsl.org  Fri Nov 14 10:28:08 1997
From: stutz at dsl.org (Michael Stutz)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:28:08 +0800
Subject: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <199711141815.NAA28804@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114130737.4898E-100000@devel.nacs.net>



On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Jeff Barber wrote:

> No need for an array, so my entry is:
> 
> int main=0xc8c70ff0; /* 20 chars */

Cool. This also compiles:

main=0xc8c70ff0; /* 14 chars */


Just as many chars as the assembly code, f00f.s:

lock cmpxch8b

[can unknown intructions like this be force compiled?]






From 75366380 at aol.com  Sat Nov 15 02:33:04 1997
From: 75366380 at aol.com (Mary)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:33:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "YOU TOO CAN MAKE MORE THAN $50,000.- "
Message-ID: <12564235322.GAA15852@aol.com>



YOU DO NOT WANT TO TRASH THIS ONE !!!!!!!!!
PLEASE READ THIS AT LEAST TWICE !!!!!!!!!!

Please accept my apology if this were sent to you in error!

***************************************************************
You could make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.
Read the enclosed program. . .  
THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!
***************************************************************

Dear Friend,

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I reread everything and gave some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years, downsized and they eliminated my position.  After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors more than $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just could not seem to make ends meet.   

I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER. . .FINANCIALLY!!! 

In mid-December, I received this program via e-mail.  Six months before receiving this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk seeing if they worked or not.  One claimed I could make a million dollars in one year. . .  It didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it. 

But as I was saying, in December I received this program.  I did not send for it, or ask for it, they got my name off a mailing list.  THANK
GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I could not believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETER, I decided "WHY NOT." 

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I did not need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it does not turn you off, but
I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me! 

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT#1.  By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DO NOT, THEN SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for 
REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. 

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I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time to read the attached program.  It WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!  Remember, it will not work if you do not try it.  This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!  REPORT #2 explains this.  

Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2.  You will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! 

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It really
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security. 

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I
DID!! 

Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson

PS.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) look like piled up on a kitchen table?  It is AWESOME! 


"THREW IT AWAY"

"I had received this program before.  I threw it away, but later wondered if I should not have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DID NOT throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try." 

Dawn W., Evansville, IN


"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.  The
program works very well.  I just had to find the right target group of
people to e-mail it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me." 

Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. 

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same things that were previously sucessful for me, but it was not working. 

Finally, I figured it out.  It was not me, it was the economy.  Inflation
and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I do not have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate. . .  because many of you know from first hand experience.  There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. 

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich," inflation will see to that. 

You have just received information that can give you FINANCIAL FREEDOM for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. 

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made more than FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after sending out more than 16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices that market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE. 

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.  It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000. . . and your name will be on every one of them!  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. 

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials, and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! 

"THINK ABOUT IT" 

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS! 

Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE$$$$$$$$$$

Let us say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes.  We
will assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.  Let us also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good list, the response could be much better.  

Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  Nevertheless, continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out of those .5%, or 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  

Those 100 e-mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 e-mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 2,000,000.  The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That is 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!! Your total income in the example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of
$55,000!!! 

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. . .  AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR JUST 1/2 SENT OUT 100,000
PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  

Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate is practically nothing if you follow the program as it is outlined.  You obviously already have an internet connection and e mail is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists. 

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get your mail.  If you believe that someday you will get that big break that you have been waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly. . .  100% EVERY TIME.  

E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail.  Get your piece of the pie!!! 

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold by Multi-Level methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the USA, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in the MLM industry.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millio
naires everyday throught Multi-Level Marketing. 

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.  YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home or office. 

This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere.

Step (1) Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5.00 cash and a SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed on that SPECIFIC REPORT. 

International orders should also include $1.00 extra for return postage. For orders to Canada from the USA NO return postage is required. The USA exchange rate on the $5.00 will cover the return postage, just send the self-addressed envelope with your $5.00.  It is essential that you specify the NAME AND NUMBER OF THE REPORT requested of the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING AND RESELLING them.  

DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same day service on all orders. 

Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with your name, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list, and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing this make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING THE PRODUCT OR REPORT POSITIONS!!! 

Step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever e-mail
program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of BULK E-MAILING and acquiring e-mail lists. 

Step (4) E-mail a copy of the entire (all of this is very important) to
everyone whose address you can get your hands on.  Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever.  Then e-mail to anyone and everyone!  Use your imagination! 

You can get e-mail addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in e-mail lists.  They are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00. 

*** IMPORTANT *** You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, NEW LIST.  You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS. 

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5.00 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER!!! 

____________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

M. A. STELLATO
584 RIDGEMOUNT CRES. SUITE 201.
MISSISSAUGA  ONTARIO
L5G1Z1
CANADA
_____________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM

G. P. CALLARMAN
P.O.BOX 13526
ODESSA, TEXAS 79768-3526
____________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

M+P FORGUES
Box 2085 
Hearst Ontario
P0L1N0
CANADA
____________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Associated Business Connections
P.O.Box 643
New Albany, OH 43053-0643

____________________________________________________
CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.  You
too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing. 

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back. 

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?  If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.  If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information.  Yo
u will get a prompt and informative reply. 

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs me pennies to produce and e-mail.  I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.  This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times, you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractiv
e. 

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.  It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.  

You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reporduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 5 cents a copy.  Best wishes with the program and GOOD LUCK! 

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING" 

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before." 

Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four (4) REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in.  When you receive an order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECIEVED." 

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.  Name your new company.  You can use your own name if you desire. 

2.  Get a post office box (preferred). 

3.  Edit the names and addresses on the program.  You must remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1, and all the others move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list. 

4.  Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you recieve the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3. 

5.  Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 

6.  After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders. 

7.  Copy the four (4) REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT:  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE! 

8.  Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible. 

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't within two weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 orders or more for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back an relax, because YOU COULD MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. 

Mathmatically it is a proven guarantee.  Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, everytime your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.  IT IS THAT EASY.  REALLY, IT IS!!! 

REMEMBER: "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."  "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE." 
**********************************************************************








From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 10:35:27 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:35:27 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749343D@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280db09235b1e011@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:37 AM -0700 11/14/97, Fisher Mark wrote:
...stuff elided...

>I dunno... Sometimes, Bob, I think that you and Tim have so much trouble
>because you are in such violent agreement about the importance of
>cryptography...

I had no "trouble" with Bob recently until he launched a major attack on
one little phrase, and chose to buttress it with over-the-top foamings
about "snot running down his barrell" and allusions to me being a hermit,
being a fool, styling myself as a freedom fighter, and various other
metaphors about The Old Man of the Mountain, and other stuff I can't quote
exactly because I chose to delete Bob's rants after glancing at them.

(I found one I hadn't deleted yet, the actual kick-off of this campaign:
"Tim's Way Cool Latter-Day Farnham's-Freehold in the Santa Clara
mountains.... a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself
to be these days... instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of
every statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland.... you won't
have to clean the snot off the end of your
gunbarrel so often...)

A charming way of making his point, eh? Some would call it "clever"
writing. I call it just a string of insults. And not even as creative as
Detweiler used to pull off.

His general writing style, liberally laced with what I think of as "New
Wave Journalism" metaphors, is not my writing style, and I usually don't
have the patience to wade through his verbiage to find his actual points.
Fine. His style is not mine. Neither is John Young's. Or Toto's. Or even
Bill Stewart's. Such is life.

But overly personal attacks which concentrate on Bob's apparent intense
dislike of _my_ style (despite his overuse of disingenuous smileys, like
":-)"), is a different matter.

As Monty noted, "Physician heal thyself!  Much of your discussion consists
of ad
hominem attacks with little content such as the paragraph quoted above."

I've tried to keep my replies to him brief. It delights me that many of my
brief replies have generated long, overwrought replies from him. Delights
me as I skim them to get the gist of his insults, then send his missive
into oblivion.

If Bob has objections or differences of opinion, fine. But he should not
squander his reputation capital by foaming about my personal choices, by
referring to snot running down my barrel, by claiming I said I was going to
kill a judge, and other such lies.

And he really ought to tone down his "Hunter S. Thompsen wannabee" style of
writing. It was old a couple of years ago.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 11:07:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:07:55 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711141755.SAA20812@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb0923cb084e6@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:55 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:

>If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
>implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.  How many people have
>objected to Tim May's racist comments?  Only one or two.  How many objected
>when William Geiger suggested that more nuclear bombs should have been
>dropped on Japan?  None.  How many have objected to the notion that
>residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed?  Hardly any.

Whomever you are, you don't sound as though you've been reading the list
for as many years as many of us have. People say all sorts of things, some
provocative, some politically incorrect, some even outrageous. Get used to
it.

I have never said "residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed." As I
recall my first comment along these lines, it was, paraphrasing (as I don't
feel like spending 15 minutes sifting through my archived mail), along the
lines of: "I fully expect to wake up some morning and hear that some
terrorist nuke has destroyed Washington, D.C. I can't say I'll be crying."

Big deal. Nothing Tom Clancy hasn't talked about in his novels. (And recall
Clancy's delicious description of a Japanese 747 loaded with jet fuel being
crashed into the main hall of Congress during a joint session, with the
President and cabinet in attendance. It was clear that Clancy was vicarious
relishing this vermin removal effort. Gonna suggest that Clancy has
committed a crime? No doubt Hettinga would.)

>At one time the cypherpunks stood for freedom of speech and protection of
>privacy.  Today they stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and
>murder, racism, homophobia, jingoism.

I've been here since the beginning...since before the beginning, actually.
And I can tell you that the "political incorrectness" was the same in
1992-4 as now. Perhaps you recall a little thing called Waco that happened
around that time? Go back and read the traffic.

As for "standing" for guns, violence, racism, homophobia, etc., there is no
Official Cypherpunks Position on _anything_. Individual list members make
individual comments. Some humorous, some angry, some stupid, some
offensive, whatever.

Many of us don't "stand" for freedom of speech if it really means
suppression of racist, homophobic, whatever speech, as it seems to me in
many countries today. The Orwellian "freedom of speech does not mean
freedom to say wrong or offensive things" is a meme that seems to be
spreading.

Ultimately, freedom of speech and of assembly, and privacy itself, is not
something the state can ensure. Technology may.


>It's ironic to see that the kind of off-topic, flaming, irrelevant
>posts which have caused such consternation in the past are now the norm.
>Reasonable people have been largely driven off the list, leaving it to
>supporters of violence and hate.

Perry was saying the same thing several years ago, even arguing that the
very name "Cypherpunks" would send the wrong message to the suits and other
responsible persons. Fine. He eventually went off and formed his own list,
with Perry's Rules of Order. Sounds fair to me.

But this list ain't that list. It doesn't run by _anybody's_ Rules of
Order. Get used to it.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From frantz at communities.com  Fri Nov 14 11:12:34 1997
From: frantz at communities.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:12:34 +0800
Subject: Humor? - WARRANTY CARD ON PURCHASED GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL[tm]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971114105441.00c74d74@homer>



WARRANTY CARD ON PURCHASED GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL[tm]

Dear Special Interest,

Congratulations on the purchase of your genuine Government Official[tm].
With regular maintenance your Government Official[tm] should provide you
with a lifetime of sweetheart deals, insider information, preferential
legislation and other fine services.

Before you begin using your product, we would appreciate it if you would
take the time to fill out this customer service card. This information will
not be sold to any other party, and will be used solely to aid us in better
fulfilling your future needs in political influence.

1. Which of our fine products did you buy?

__ President
__ Vice-President
__ Senator
__ Congressman
__ Governor
__ Cabinet Secretary - Commerce
__ Cabinet Secretary - Other_____________
__ Other Elected Official (please specify)______________
__ Other Appointed Official (please specify)_____________

2. How did you hear about your Government Official[tm]?
Please check all that apply.

__ TV ad.
__ Magazine / newspaper ad.
__ Shared jail cell with.
__ Former law partner of.
__ Unindicted co-conspirator with.
__ Arkansas crony of.
__ Procured for.
__ Related to.
__ Recommended by lobbyist.
__ Recommended by organized crime figure.
__ Frequently mentioned in conspiracy theories. (On Internet.)
__ Frequently mentioned in conspiracy theories. (Elsewhere.)
__ Spoke at fundraiser at my temple.
__ Solicited bribe from me.
__ Attempted to seduce me.

3. How do you expect to use your Government Official[tm]?
(Please check all that apply.)

__ Obtain lucrative government contracts.
__ Have my prejudices turned into law.
__ Obtain diplomatic concessions.
__ Obtain trade concessions.
__ Have embargo lifted from own nation / ally.
__ Have embargo imposed on enemy / rival nation / religious infidels.
__ Obtain patronage job for self / spouse / mistress.
__ Forestall military action against self / allies.
__ Instigate military action against internal enemies / aggressors /
      targets for future conquest.
__ Impede criminal / civil investigation of self / associates / spouse.
__ Obtain pardon for self / associates / spouse.
__ Inflict punitive legislation on class enemies / rivals / hated ethnic
      groups.
__ Inflict punitive regulation on business competitors / environmental
   exploiters / capitalist pigs.

4. What factors influenced your purchase?
(Please check all that apply.)

__ Performance of currently owned model.
__ Reputation.
__ Price.
__ Appearance.
__ Party affiliation.
__ Professed beliefs of Government Official[tm].
__ Actual beliefs of Government Official[tm].
__ Orders from boss / superior officer / foreign government.
__ Blackmail.
__ Celebrity endorsement.

5. Is this product intended as a replacement for a currently owned
Government Official[tm]? ______

If you answered "yes," please indicate your reason(s) for changing
models.

__ Excessive operating / maintenance costs.
__ Needs have grown beyond capacity of current model.
__ Defect in current model:
__ Dead.
__ Senile.
__ Indicted.
__ Convicted.
__ Resigned in disgrace.
__ Switched parties / beliefs.
__ Outbribed by competing interest.

Thank you for your valuable time.
Always remember: in choosing a Government Official[tm] you have
chosen the best politician that money can buy.


[The joke appeared on a mailing list. No attribution.]








From schear at lvdi.net  Fri Nov 14 11:23:54 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:23:54 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711130452.WAA10417@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb09249288971@[208.129.55.202]>



At 10:52 PM -0600 11/12/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>				ARTICLE X. 
> 
>	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
>nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
>or to the people. 
>
>
>In some manner the question of whether the first sentence is an implicit
>limitation of *all* laws and regulations at the federal level needs to be
>tested. In other words, each and every law *must* trace its existance to a
>specific set of sentences in the Constitution. If it could be found to be so
>then each and every law and regulation at the federal would have to pass
>constitutional review at every stage of its existance within the federal
>government. Then a case needs to found of some situation say the founding of
>a church based on smoking marijuana was a illegal entity under the 1st where
>it is found that such organizations were illegal (rather trivial I suspect).
>At this point the wording of the 1st becomes *much* more specific.

[snip]
>
>Why some lawyer has not used this basic question in the numerous murder
>trials is truly amazing. If he wins a legal precidence is set. If he looses
>and gets to appeal. Then walk that appeals train right up to the fundamental
>question of the 10th. Forcing the Supreme Court to either reject, stating
>clearly their answer in favor of the majority, or else to review and find
>that laws must pass Constitutional muster. Either way the question gets
>answered.

Ignoring the Constitution because it's inconvenient is the slippery slope we've been on since  Federal power was "illegally" expanded and the principle of judicial review was established in 1803 in the famous case of Marbury v. Madison.  (As I recall this case centered on the establishment of a Federal Bank, the authority for which was not mentioned in said document, but which some wealthy and influential U.S. and Eurpoean bankers dearly wanted as a means to indebt our early republic and make it dependent on their largess.  Hamilton, an avid supporter of commerce and the need for monetary policies and controls to foster expanded U.S. manufacturing, strongly backed such a bank.  Hamilton was also the main political instigator of the unfair taxation which precipitated the Whiskey Rebellion, I believe the only time in which U.S. Army troops were ordered to fire on our own citizens.)  Since then, any excuse the President and Congress can come up with is sufficient to create a  new!
 agency and expanded authority.  Completely circumventing the Constitutional intent of the founders, which was only non-obvious to the politically savy SC judges.

----

Friday, July 11, 1997


                    Isn't this court made up of conservatives? 


By Leon Friedman
The Supreme Court has declared 141 federal laws unconstitutional, an average of less than one law every year.

But in the last week of its 1996-97 term, the Supreme Court declared three federal laws unconstitutional. 

The laws involved were not minor or technical statutes. The court struck down the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, a law making it more difficult for government to burden religious practice, which was endorsed by almost all religious groups and passed by an almost unanimous Congress.

The court invalidated a provision of the Communications Decency Act, which tried to protect against indecent material being posted on the Internet where it would be available to children -- another provision that received almost complete Congressional approval.

Finally, the court nullified a crucial Brady Act section requiring local police to make background checks of gun buyers to ensure that ex-criminals or mental patients don't purchase firearms.

The Rehnquist court is supposed to be composed of conservatives. Isn't it an article of faith among conservatives that the high court and all federal judges are supposed to defer to popular will as expressed through the legislature?

Throughout our history, judicial review has been a double-edged sword. In the 1930s, a conservative Supreme Court -- the nine old men -- invalidated many New Deal laws on the grounds that Congress lacked power to regulate business affairs
across state lines. It was only when President Franklin Roosevelt threatened to pack the court that it backed off and decided that the New Deal Congress had the power to pass most of the reform laws in question.

Thirty years later, the situation was reversed. The Warren court invalidated a series of laws punishing Communist Party membership or restricting individual rights, relying on the First Amendment and other provisions of the Bill of Rights as the basis for its decisions. Then a howl went up among conservative critics that it was usurping the role of the legislature.

What has happened more recently is that leading members of the court have found a new rationale for striking down federal laws. Focusing on the structure of the Constitution and the need to restrict governmental power on all levels, this court has found new limits on what Congress can do.

In the Brady Act case, it held that Washington cannot make the states or state officials carry out federal policies or federal directives. 

The other recent cases were also significant. The decision striking down the ``indecency'' sections of the Communications Decency Act was in keeping with the court's concern about protecting First Amendment rights from being restricted by
Congress. But the other key decision was based on the court's conclusion that Congress could not expand individual rights, either.

In a case decided seven years ago, the court had limited the free exercise clause of the First Amendment. But under Section Five of the 14th Amendment, Congress has the power to ``enforce the provisions'' of that amendment ``by appropriate legislation,'' including the power to protect the constitutional rights of citizens against state encroachment. 

Congress decided that the court's analysis of the free exercise clause was too restrictive, and it sought to expand religious rights by relying on its enforcement powers under Section Five.  But the Supreme Court held that its judicial interpretation of the Bill of Rights was conclusive. 

In restricting the power of Congress to act, the court has arrogated to itself far greater governmental powers than any other branch of government, and it has taken on far greater powers. And all this is being done under a conservative banner of judicial restraint

------
Leon Friedman is a professor of constitutional law at Hofstra University Law School.







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Fri Nov 14 11:35:29 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:35:29 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971114141408.1522C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
> The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
> one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
> all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
> its leader.

At the risk of responding to a post which has a good probability of being 
a troll I will at least say that the above opinion may be that of several 
members, but the fact is the list has evolved, it never had an original 
defined purpose, at least not one easily put into words, and applauding 
murder of government agents is a part of the whole strong crypto privacy 
and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 14 11:41:56 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:41:56 +0800
Subject: Y2K: Canada status?
In-Reply-To: <199711120328.WAA14485@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971114110336.00716324@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 07:22 PM 11/11/1997 -0500, Jean-Francois Avon wrote:
>Please reply to my personnal address, I am not on CPunks.
>
>Is there anybody who knows about the Y2K situation in Canada?

Canada is expected to remain relatively intact until 2000 :-)

Some computers may become upset on April Fools, 1999,
when the Northwest Territories splits into Nunavut and Bob*,
either because they can't accommodate the extra slack,
or because they think a large fraction of the inhabitants moved,
or because they use numbers or a small set of abbreviations
to indicate provinces and weren't designed for that to change...

[* Some residents prefer to retain the old name of Northwest Territories,
but they'll eventually lose....]
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 12:30:48 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 04:30:48 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v0310280fb092516361eb@[207.167.93.63]>



At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:

>and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
>find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
>not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

Just so.

I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
denounced me as a racist.  As a member of a "mongrelized society," as one
prominent Japanese put it a while back (and not back in the 1940s...it was
the 1980s), I am always happy to be called a racist by someone from one of
the most racially homogeneous nations on earth, a nation which of course
did not allow any "boat people" to settle in their nation, all the while
denouncing the U.S. for letting only several hundred thousand boat people
in.

The history of our "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011 at hotmail.com> is apparently
unknown to Joichi Ito, else he would not have been so quick to brand me a
racist for my humor.

I'm not even sure Nobuki Nakatuji is even an actual Japanese, given his
hotmail.com account and his stereotypically
Japanese-trying-to-write-English skills. It may just be a troll. Or a
get-rich-quick scheme.

I've probably deleted most of this Nakatuji guy's posts, but I did manage
to find a dozen or so. Here are some excerpts for those who have forgotten
what he has written. (Oh, and he seems to never engage in any discussions,
never responding substantively to anything people say to him. I suspect a
bot at work.)

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011 at hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Please show me these encryption algorithms
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:09:06 PDT


Does anybody know RC4,RC2,CDMF,MISTY,MULTI2 encryption algorithms?
If you know these encryption algorithms,
Please show me these encryption algorithms.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011 at hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: GAO's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithms
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:15:21 PDT

Do you want Gao's chaos cryptosytem's thesis
written in English ?
If you want it,Please send check or money order
of 50 dollar to me.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011 at hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:30:40 PDT

Does anybody know MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm ?
If you know it,Please send e-mail to me.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011 at hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: MISTY algorithm
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:00:20 PDT

Does anybody want MISTY algorithm ?
If you want it,Please send e-mail to me.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011 at hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Where are another cypherpunk
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:18:23 PDT

Where are another cypherpunk mailinglist ?












From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 14 12:34:25 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 04:34:25 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <d5d52575805da34d1a21fcf126379b15@anon.efga.org>



On 11/14/97, Tim May wrote:

> Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn
> from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as
> an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges
> were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.

So, Tim, exactly how much stock in RSA did you have in RSA at the time, and
how much did the stock tank afterward?

Say hello to Bidzos from us the next time you two have lunch...






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Nov 14 12:57:05 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 04:57:05 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971114204434.00c77790@pop.pipeline.com>



Nobody at replay.com spake:

>Step back from this immersion in a culture of violence.  Draw the cloak
>of privacy about your actions.  That is the true cypherpunk way.

Now this is A-1 cpunk-bonic blacknet stocking. Hectoring, condescending, 
intolerant, imperative, in perfect denial of all possible put-ons save the 
sound of one maggot gobbling a numbskull's braincell, backgassing a 
heed-this screed.

As H bobs, eye *snot* dis lip.

Suss is lisp (wa tmor (wa rc4)).

wa locking intel inside

wa nya, nya, nya

wa wa?

wa nsa, nsa, nsa

wa wa, wa, wha the?

wa

w'

.[Stego]






From declan at well.com  Fri Nov 14 12:57:08 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 04:57:08 +0800
Subject: The V-Chip for PCs, the FCC, and broadcasting on the Net
Message-ID: <v03007803b0926853ecf7@[204.254.21.61]>



My original article on the VChip for PCs:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1528,00.html

-Declan

**********

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:37:34 -0800
From: Robert Cannon <cannon at DC.NET>
Subject:      Re: VCHIP (was Son of CDA)

>>> David Lesher <wb8foz at NRK.COM> 11/14/97 09:37am >>>
Cassidy Sehgal sez:
>>
>> The FCC proceedings currently on the mandatory inclusion of the V-Chip
>> in televisions also refer to including the chip in personal computers. I
>> think that is the back door the administration and groups like CDT are
>> looking for to censor the net.
>
>If I recall correctly, that was an interpretation by a reporter
>and has been revised...
>


The interpretation of the proceeding is correct.  There has been no
revision.  There have been quotes in the press from FCC officials
stating VCHIP does not apply to PCs because PCs cant display broadcast.
This is inaccurate.

Here is the language from the rulemaking itself:

<SNIP>

Para. 22:   Other Television Receiving Apparatus. . . . In addition,
personal computer systems, which are not traditionally thought of as
television receivers, are already being sold with the capability to view
television and other video programming. Section 551(c) of the
Telecommunications Act makes it clear that the program blocking
requirements were intended to apply to any "apparatus designed to
receive television signals" that has a picture screen of 13 inches or
larger. Accordingly, we believe that the program blocking requirements
we are
proposing should apply to any television receiver meeting the screen
size requirements, regardless of whether it is designed to
receive video programming that is distributed only through cable
television systems, MDS, DBS, or by some other distribution
system. These requirements would also apply to any computer that is sold
with TV receiver capability and a monitor that has a
viewable picture size of 13 inches or larger, as we currently do for
closed captioning.

<END SNIP>

First, there have been a series of articles lately on technical
developments for computers.  There is the expectancy that soon all PC's
will be able to receive and display broadcast signals.  W3C is
developing a standard for the display of broadcast over the Internet.
So, if all future PC's can display broadcast, they fall under the
provisions of para 22.  See Spec to bring TV-like content to Net C|NET
November 6, 1997; W3C Issues First Public Draft of Synchronized
Multimedia Integration Language (SMIL): Key Industry Players and
Research
Organisations Team-Up to Merge the Web with Television (Nov 6, 1997);
Changing Channels: Will the Internet Become TV, PC Magazine (November
1997).

Second, if they fall under para. 22, then the VCHIP would be required to
block the transmission, whatever the source.  Para 22 states that the
VCHIP will block "video programming that is distributed . . . by some
other distribution system."  Arguably, the Internet falls under "some
other distribution system.

Final thought, if you think this analysis is wrong, make sure you file
comments with the FCC by November 24 at vchip at fcc.gov telling them so.
Make sure the FCC understands this issue the way you think it should be
understood.

-Robert Cannon
Internet Telecommunications Project
http://www.cais.net/cannon/







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov 14 13:00:15 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:00:15 +0800
Subject: Key Signing
In-Reply-To: <199711141003.LAA02307@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v04002705b09258139cc2@[139.167.130.248]>



At 5:03 am -0500 on 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:


>   I was testing the procedure outlined in Epilogue 5 of InfoWar
> on a friend's machine and, sure enough, I got PGP 2.62 to spit
> out the private key he had created as Necessarily Knott, ME.

True confession time. Last March, when I was clearly still figuring PGP
out, while experimenting with a nameless Mac PGP crypto package (hint, it
wasn't built here on this side of the pond) based on 2.6.2, I accidentally
exported my private key and sent it to someone famous so they could sign
it.

Fortunately, that person (hint, he knew PRZ, once, and got in trouble for
it) physically showed up to visit me where I was working at the time, and
stood over me while I genned up a new private key (I went to 2048 then) and
revoked the old one, talking all the time about how many ways he could do a
dictionary for the passphrase... I was feeling pretty stupid until he told
me that PRZ did the same thing, back when they were playing with the
original version of PGP. Actually, I still felt stupid after that.

Believe it... or not.

So, anyone want to bet that this key was done the same way?

Except, how was Bill able to change the passphrase if he didn't know the
old one?

Curiouser and curiouser...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Fri Nov 14 13:19:03 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:19:03 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971114204434.00c77790@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114150145.4320G-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:

> Nobody at replay.com spake:
> 
> >Step back from this immersion in a culture of violence.  Draw the cloak
> >of privacy about your actions.  That is the true cypherpunk way.
> 
> Now this is A-1 cpunk-bonic blacknet stocking. Hectoring, condescending, 
> intolerant, imperative, in perfect denial of all possible put-ons save the 
> sound of one maggot gobbling a numbskull's braincell, backgassing a 
> heed-this screed.
> 
> As H bobs, eye *snot* dis lip.
> 
> Suss is lisp (wa tmor (wa rc4)).
> 
> wa locking intel inside
> 
> wa nya, nya, nya
> 
> wa wa?
> 
> wa nsa, nsa, nsa
> 
> wa wa, wa, wha the?
> 
> wa
> 
> w'
> 

Man!  Steely Dan's Donald Fagen couldn't hold a candle
to John's syntactic(*synaptic*?) constructs.  

When is John going to share some of those drugs?

jim






From ulf at fitug.de  Fri Nov 14 13:20:28 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:20:28 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711141755.SAA20812@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <9711142104.AA49354@public.uni-hamburg.de>



> If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
> implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.

I'm not implicitly condoning the ASCII art insultbot just because I
ignore it.  Nor am I implicitly condoning William Geiger's posts when
I don't read them.






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Nov 14 13:28:46 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:28:46 +0800
Subject: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <9711141643.AA18973@mentat.com>
Message-ID: <199711142008.UAA05152@server.test.net>




Jim Gillogly <jim at mentat.com> writes: (Jim Gillogly)
> Adam says:
> > (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */
> > 
> > Compiled with gcc.
> 
> long main=0xc8c70ff0;	/* also gcc; 21 chars, and not my invention */
> Without the "long" you get a warning, but it compiles anyway... 16 chars.

Wow!  Completely out-classed :-)

I did try this one in my efforts:

main="\360\017\307\310";

which compiles, but obviously doesn't work.

So... I see the light now: you can write var=5; and it'll assume int,
and so if you do main=5; it will create asm label _main against a
memory location initialised to that constant ... due to lack of type
checking, that'll make the linker happy and voila.  Excellent.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From bryce at digicash.com  Fri Nov 14 13:31:07 1997
From: bryce at digicash.com (Bryce)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:31:07 +0800
Subject: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <199711141815.NAA28804@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <199711142121.WAA02716@digicash.com>




> > > main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> > > main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
> > > (*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> > > (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */
> 
> > How about:
> > 
> > long main[]={0xc8c70ff0};
> > 
> > or even
> > 
> > main[]={0xc8c70ff0}; /* 21 chars */
> > 
> > Compiles with gcc, but I haven't tested it.
> 
> No need for an array, so my entry is:
> 
> int main=0xc8c70ff0; /* 20 chars */


On a DOS box, no need to compile.  Cut-n-paste the magic words
into a file.  Name the file "foof.com".  Run it.


4 bytes.  I win.  :-)


Bryce

P.S.  Not original with me.  Attribution lost in the mists of 
comp.sys.intel.






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Fri Nov 14 13:32:57 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:32:57 +0800
Subject: Victory for Microbroadcasting
Message-ID: <Js7Cx+Ed7LaZDLfit8DnEQ==@bureau42.ml.org>



TruthMonger wrote:
> The Intenet Content Coalition (ICC) made a cheap grab at trying to form
> a corporate FCC to put the InterNet media-power brokering in the hands
> of those who already rule the roost overseen by the FCC. 

> The fact of the matter is, the mainstream media is not going to have
> a lot of trouble herding the majority of the sheeple into their feeding
> pens, given the power, money and position that they already have, so
> it is a bit tacky for them to have made an attempt to put themselves
> in a position to 'enforce' standards favorable to themselves.

  Amen! These fools have to start realizing that their best allies in
getting out from under the thumb of big gubmint are the citizens, many
of whom share similar goals in this regard.
  If the corporations try to get too greedy, then they will be no better
option for the citizens than the government currently is, and will have
to fight their war on two fronts, which history has shown to be a very
untenable position.
 
> The difference between MicroBroadcasting and the MicroWeb/WebRings
> that are being independently formed, is that MicroBroadcasting is
> trying to get back what was stolen, and those on the InterNet are
> trying to keep from getting what we already have, stolen in the
> future.

  We should all encourage ourselves and others to develop as many
communities and inter-related/active communities on the Net as
possible in the near future. The more people who have something to
defend, something to lose, by the loss of freedom on the Net, then
the more who will be ready and willing to raise their voice when
the Fascist Censors/Controllers attempt to steal what does not
belong to them--our speech, privacy, and liberty.
 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
>         National Lawyers Guild Committee on Democratic Communications
>                     558 Capp Street, San Francisco 94110

>                  COURT REJECTS FCC's CONSTITUTIONAL CATCH 22
 
>      In 1995, Judge Wilken rejected the government's first motion for a
>      preliminary injunction against Dunifer's broadcasts. At that time
>      the Court found merit in Dunifer's argument that the FCC's ban on
>      low power, affordable FM broadcasting was a violation of the First
>      Amendment's guarantee of free speech to all in the United States.
...
>      In response to pressure from the commercial broadcaster's lobby,
>      the National Association of Broadcasters (N.A.B.), the FCC has in
>      recent months been stepping up its campaign of harassment against
>      the thousands of micro radio stations now on the air in this
>      country. 

  They are trying to find a few sympathetic/bought judges to make 
rulings which they can use against those who do not have the funds 
and the political savy that the Berkeley people do, in order to have
a basis for further injunctions while they apply pressure from other
fronts, as well.

>      Hiken commented ...
>      "In trying to do the N.A.B.�s bidding, the FCC demonstrates
>      that it is nothing but an enforcement arm of the commercial
>      broadcast industry and the multi-national corporations which own
>      it."


>      In its
>      Friend of the Court brief the Lawyers Guild pointed out that FCC
>      regulations make it impossible for all but the very wealthy to
>      even apply for a broadcast license. This, they told the Court, is
>      the equivalent of saying anyone could speak from a soap box in the
>      park, but the box had to be made of gold. 

  Freedom of speech for the rich and powerful...sound familiar?

>      For almost 70 years, the FCC has catered solely to the
>      interests of commercial corporate giants, through their
>      mouthpiece, the National Association of Broadcasters. These are
>      the pirates, who have stolen the airwaves from the American
>      people, and who represent corporate interests valued at more than
>      60 billion dollars.

>      The legal team welcomes the opportunity to have a court identify
>      the real pirates of the airwaves -- not the thousands of
>      microradio broadcasters who seek to communicate with the people of
>      their communities, but rather the billionaire commercial interests
>      that control the airwaves as if they own them.

  We have criminals running the government, and pirates running the
corporations. What should our role, as citizens, be?
  I submit that our role in society is to support the organizations
(government, corporate, secular, religious...ad infinitum) which will
serve our best interests in the process of serving their own.
  I further submit that the Globalization of society and government
brings to life the concept that 'no man is an island,' and that it
is no longer possible for us to support discrimination against, or
oppression of, any individual or group of individuals without it
coming back to haunt us much more quickly than in the past.

  The recent initiative by the US, Candada and Mexico, in conjunction
with one another, to seek out 'bad' information/behavior in the health
area on the Internet, is but one example of those who are thinking
locally and acting globally.
  i.e. - If Canucks support legislation which will 'stick it to the
Spics,' they will find themselves freezing to death because of a ban
on jalopenos because of unsupported health claims by the Mexicans 
that jalapenos are 'good for you.'

  It is imperative that those of us concerned with the development
and regulation of the Internet resist falling into the same sense
of fatalism that has led us to allow the government and corporations
to lead us into narrower and narrower chutes which separate us into
feeding pens designed to turn us into docile consumers of spoon-fed
government and corporate fascism.
  We need to make every attempt to keep the Internet a form of free-
market socialism where 1 Byte == 1 Byte, no matter whether it is a
Swedish byte, a communist byte, an Afro-American byte, a liberal
byte, a gay byte, a Marv Alpert bite, etc.

  The minute that a Holocaust byte becomes of more or less inherent
value or righteousness than an anti-Holocaust byte, then we enter 
the same quagmire which is suffocating and oppressing the established
forms of government and society.
  We have allowed the mediums of politics and social customs to turn
our world into a place where there is a difference of value in a
symbol of currency, such as a dollar, which is dependent upon whether
it is in a rich man's pocket, a poor man's pocket, a government pocket,
a church pocket, etc.
  We have allowed ourselves to be sucked into the belief that we are
separate individuals, separate nations, and that we can gain by taking
from others. This is true, to a certain extent, as long as we remain
prisoners of local geographical borders, but it will be less so in
a global society. 

  Who is the enemy?
  The enemy is whoever takes away your freedom. The enemy is whoever
takes away my freedom. The enemy is whoever takes away our neighbor's
freedom, or the freedom of strangers throughout our global community.
  The same applies to privacy, free speech, money, dignity, and a 
host of other things which are basic to our personal and group liberty.

  Who is our friend and ally?
  It is whoever mirrors the web site which is banned/stolen from us,
whether they agree or disagree with our beliefs and goals. It is the
anonymous remailer operator who replies to the anti-remailer lies
and diatribes I send through their system, rather than blocking them.
It is the person who attacks the organizations that seek to censor
or ban our individual beliefs and opinions, even while attacking
our beliefs and opinions in expressing their own.

  Freedom is our friend. Censorship is our enemy.

George Spelvin 
(Mein Fuhrer--and nobody else's!)








From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 14 13:33:50 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:33:50 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <65a00aae0e204b2dbf6415a44da035dd@anon.efga.org>



How "anonymous" (to what degree) are email messages
sent through the various remailers (Mixmaster,
EFGA, ml.org, etc)?

Have there been any studies done as to the degree
of anonymity obtained from using these remailers?
(I haven't been able to find any.)

And does anyone know of any studies being done
in determining whether or not content-based
analysis - diction and language - is a reliable
way to determine identity?

It seems that if Dick has a certain vocabulary,
uses a certain sentence structure, etc., and
regularly posts using a nym, that this form and
content could be traced to Dick, so the likelihood
of the post coming from him and not Jane would
be that much increased.







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 13:47:13 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:47:13 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fb092516361eb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711142125.WAA13486@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:

> Just so.
> 
> I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> denounced me as a racist.

Dimitri's humor is more humorous, anyway.






From kent at songbird.com  Fri Nov 14 14:36:09 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:36:09 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <1f6c13f75e895afd9ec8f5d61ed19ff9@squirrel>
Message-ID: <19971114142015.35203@songbird.com>



On Thu, Nov 13, 1997 at 05:59:51AM -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
[...]
> 
> "I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, 
> or give me death." -- Patrick Henry
> 
> What is life without liberty?  Abject slavery.  Any sane man would rather
> die than be a slave.

It makes nice rhetoric, but this is simply not true, you know.  Most 
people correctly evaluate that you have no chance for freedom at all 
if you commit suicide, whereas a slave *does* have a chance.

But of course we know from game theory that being completely
predictable can be a weakness.  So having a certain percentage of the
population who will behave irrationally is probably necessary for the
health of a society.  But if too many people act irrationally, 
society will disintegrate.  (By "irrational" here I am referring to 
behaviour clearly contrary to your own survival.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 14:37:40 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:37:40 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Message-ID: <199711142225.XAA20666@basement.replay.com>



Anonymous blathered:
>If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
>implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.  How many people have
>objected to Tim May's racist comments?  Only one or two.  How many objected
>when William Geiger suggested that more nuclear bombs should have been
>dropped on Japan?  None.  How many have objected to the notion that
>residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed?  Hardly any.

How many of us SHOULD bother responding to these trolls?

Tim May froths at the mouth.
William Geiger froths at the mouth.
Dimitri Vulis (KOTM) froths at the mouth.
Paul Bradley froths at the mouth.  (I just included him as a troll.)
Anonymous froths at the mouth.

How much pointless outrage should I feign everytime one of these people posts?
How much crap do you want to read?

If you don't like 'em, stick 'em in your kill file.

It's your right to complain, but don't expect me to give a shit.

>At one time the cypherpunks stood for freedom of speech and protection of
>privacy.  Today they stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and
>murder, racism, homophobia, jingoism.

No, we've always stood for homophobia, you anonymous cocksucker.

>It's ironic to see that the kind of off-topic, flaming, irrelevant
>posts which have caused such consternation in the past are now the norm.
>Reasonable people have been largely driven off the list, leaving it to
>supporters of violence and hate.

Is it better to wave your magic wand and ignore the erosion of our rights, or take up a gun and defend them?  You can try the political route if you want, but we're stuck in a tyranny of the majority.  The politicos stand behind a podium, claim they've got to "do something" to "save the children" and nobody argues.  How can you win an argument on free speech when Joe Sixpack only sees the EyeWitless News drones crying "Children get porn on the Internet!"?

Joe Sixpack would like nothing better than to silence the minority.  The other 49% of people really piss him off, what with their crucifixes in urine and that other liberal shit.  And Catholics.  They piss him off too.

The Constitution is supposed to protect our right to free speech.

Congress, at the urging of this majority of Joe Sixpacks, is trying to suppress it.

The answer cannot come through congress.  Cypherpunks would have to outnumber the civilians in an election, and that's just not gonna happen.  Our only hope is the defenses we can provide ourselves, and if that's court challenges, guns and crypto, well then as Tim almost sez:

Lock and load and encypher.  (Nuke the lawyers anyway.)

>The sad thing is, this is all unnecessary.  The original conception was
>that cryptography would allow people to protect the privacy of voluntary
>interactions.  Laws forbidding voluntary transactions will be difficult
>or impossible to enforce.  We will move into a world where there is far
>more liberty and freedom for everyone.
>
>There is no need to blast government agents' heads open.  There is no
>need to nuke D.C., or Japan.  There is no need to disparage people of other
>races and cultures.
>
>Step back from this immersion in a culture of violence.  Draw the cloak
>of privacy about your actions.  That is the true cypherpunk way.

Oh, come on, Zooko (oops, did I write that?  I meant "anonymous".)  What the hell do you know about the "True Cypherpunk Way", other than that's the name of the street in Bienfait, Saskatchewan that I live on?

JoeSixpackMonger






From nobody at neva.org  Fri Nov 14 15:01:03 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:01:03 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711142245.QAA05891@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>> If Tim and others fail to exercise their right to say what they
>> believe, then it is likely those rights will be suspended in due
>> time.
>
>Like I said before, it makes sense, but not because Foucault said
>it. Broken clocks, and all that. Besides, Monty, I hate appeals to
>authority almost as much as I hate ad honminae.

Are you asking me to use Foucault's line without giving him credit?
That doesn't seem right to me.

Foucault's essay was insightful and significantly influenced my point
of view.  Not only does he deserve the credit, but mentioning his name
may direct other interested readers toward his work.

BTW, how much of Foucault have you actually read?  I am generally
unfamiliar with his work, but I have a sinking feeling the same can be
said for certain of his critics.

It is easy to give French intellectuals a cursory reading and conclude
that there is nothing there.  However, often there is quite a lot of
something there, but it comes from people with a different
intellectual tradition than our own so it is harder to understand.  An
apparently absurd sentence is often a reference to a body of work with
which we are not familiar.

>> It seems to me that Tim said "The judge in the Paladin case
>> committed a capital crime" and not "The judge in the Paladin case
>> committed a capital crime and should be gunned down in the streets
>> like a dog."
>
>Frankly, I believe that the two sentences above are exactly the same
>thing,...

No, in the first case the possibility of a fair trial with an
impartial jury exists.  They are different statements.

>...but that it was pretty apparently a wish (if not a threat, if you
>want to pull semantic hairs until one bleeds) that the judge be
>assassinated,...

Tim has repeatedly made it clear to the world that this was not his
meaning.  What is your purpose in declaring otherwise?

>...because a judge can't be killed, legally, for *any* decision he
>makes. I expect that gunning the judge down in the street like a dog
>would fit Tim's bill quite nicely.

In every other instance in which Tim has discussed capital punishment,
it has been in the context of a trial.

If OJ had committed a brutal murder in a state without the death
penalty, say Massachusetts, and Tim said "OJ is guilty of a capital
crime", would you conclude that he was calling for his murder?

Clearly that would not be reasonable.  So why do you feel the meaning
changes when "OJ" is substituted for "The judge"?  Perhaps you harbor
latent urges to murder our public officials and wish to draw attention
from yourself by pointing the finger at Tim.  You seem to be talking
about it more than anybody else.

>And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to end on
>Thanksgiving Day, much less at the beginning of the millennium. Armed
>storm troopers are probably *not* going to decend on the denizens of
>this list and haul them off to newly built gulags in the Rockies
>somewhere, or whatever the current fantasy of the moment is.

When you drive do you always wear your seat belt, or just when you are
going to have an accident?

Incidentally, it is well documented that in the 1980s, the USG had
detailed plans for mass arrests of dissident citizens.  Ten army camps
had been selected for this purpose.  The plan was to be executed in
the event the country invaded Nicaragua.  The USG has incarcerated
masses of U.S. citizens without trial at least twice during the 20th
century.

To claim it cannot happen again seems a little naive.

>> The book I am reading is called "The Aurora: A Democratic-Republican
>> Returns" by Richard N. Rosenfeld.
>
>Okay. Here's where I cop to bad craziness. It's now time for me to
>fess up and get my butt hammered like a gentleman. :-).

You certainly take your medicine like a man.  Good.

>> 1. Publius was John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison.
>> Jay and Hamilton were leaders of the party attempting to subvert
>> the Constitution.
>
>Mostly Madison, I believe, and, oddly enough, a protoge of Jefferson
>at one point.

Hamilton wrote 51 of the essays, Madison 26, Jay 5, and 3 were written
jointly by Madison and Hamilton.

If you are saying he attempted to subvert the Constitution, this
letter will be of interest.  (May 20, 1798 Madison to Jefferson):

>The Alien bill proposed in the Senate is a monster that must forever
>disgrace its parents.  I should not have supposed it possible that
>such a one could have been engendered in either House & still
>persuade myself that it cannot be fathered by both... These addresses
>to the feelings of the people from their enemies may have more effect
>in opening their eyes than all the arguments addressed to their
>understandings by their friends.  The President also seems to be
>co-operating for the same purpose.  Every answer he gives to his
>addressers unmasks more and more his principles & views.  His
>language to the young men at Ph[iladelphia] is the most abominable &
>degrading that could fall from the lips of the first magistrate of an
>independent people...  It throws some light on his meaning when he
>remarked to me "that there was not a single principle the same in the
>American & French Revolutions;"... the abolition of Royalty was, it
>seems, not one of his Revolutionary principles...

>> 6. Jefferson did not write the Bill of Rights.  He was in France at
>> the time and was pleased to hear these amendments had been added to
>> the Constitution.
>
>I don't believe that's right. I believe, if you check it out, that
>Jefferson sent the Bill of Rights to the Constitutional Convention
>from France, and that Madison, ironically enough, had a hand in
>getting it passed.

Perhaps it is your turn to crack open a book and find the reference.
I would be quite interested (and surprised) if you can substantiate
your claim.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From ljh at dev.null  Fri Nov 14 15:17:25 1997
From: ljh at dev.null (Louis J. Freeh)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:17:25 +0800
Subject: Remailer Security
In-Reply-To: <65a00aae0e204b2dbf6415a44da035dd@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <346CD981.7ED2@dev.null>



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

Anonymous wrote:
 
> How "anonymous" (to what degree) are email messages
> sent through the various remailers (Mixmaster,
> EFGA, ml.org, etc)?

  Everyone who uses a remailer is perfectly anonymous, and thus safe
from having their identity discovered. Remailers are now so advanced
that it is virtually impossible for anyone to discover the user's true
identity.
  Also, the Law Agency Freedom Foundation has verified that no law
enforcement agencies are running remailers, out of respect for the
citizen's right to anonymity.

> And does anyone know of any studies being done
> in determining whether or not content-based
> analysis - diction and language - is a reliable
> way to determine identity?

  This is patently ridiculous. CypherPunks have long tried to figure
out, by use of, as you said, these means, to ferret out schills,
yes, schills, on the list. In totoal, to date, they have been unable
to successfully do so.
  ? the Platypus say heyed to me joust the otter day that hee...hee
warts able two foal Manny peephole awn the CyperPukes lips width
his alanon e-mouse pastes.

  Hope this clears things up for you...

Anonymous (see! it worked for me)
p.s. - and headers are meaningless, too






From ft at dev.null  Fri Nov 14 15:47:14 1997
From: ft at dev.null (FBI Target)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:47:14 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <9711142104.AA49354@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <346CDCE0.793C@dev.null>



Ulf M�ller wrote:
> 
> > If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
> > implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.
> 
> I'm not implicitly condoning the ASCII art insultbot just because I
> ignore it.  Nor am I implicitly condoning William Geiger's posts when
> I don't read them.

  I would like everyone to know that I am implicitly condoning
everything
said on this list, even the stuff James Dalton Bell said before I joined
the list. As a matter of fact I am even implicitly condoning the things
that I disagree with. So there...

A Lurker From Bienfait
"Here's the belt, daddy!"






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 16:09:27 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:09:27 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711142345.AAA02020@basement.replay.com>



Tim May writes:
>At 10:55 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
>
>>If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
>>implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.  How many people have
>>objected to Tim May's racist comments?  Only one or two.  How many objected
>>when William Geiger suggested that more nuclear bombs should have been
>>dropped on Japan?  None.  How many have objected to the notion that
>>residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed?  Hardly any.
>...SNIP...
>I have never said "residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed." As I
>recall my first comment along these lines, it was, paraphrasing (as I don't
>feel like spending 15 minutes sifting through my archived mail), along the
>lines of: "I fully expect to wake up some morning and hear that some
>terrorist nuke has destroyed Washington, D.C. I can't say I'll be crying."

Try this:

: To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
: From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
: Subject: Snickering at the Compromisers
: Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:03:37 -0800
: 
: For the 3rd or 4th time, I have never advocated terrorism, at least not of
: a physical sort. I have said I hope to see D.C. nuked, which is hardly the
: same as "advocating" terrorism in any meaningful sense (not even the "will
: no one rid me of this corrupt city?" sense, given that I have no
: Beckett-like powers).

You admit here that you've said you hope to see D.C. nuked.

Do you really hope that D.C. gets nuked?  Do other list readers agree?
How many people would this kill?  Over half a million live in the city
proper, with millions more in the surrounding areas.  You have now said
that you would hope to see many of these millions of people killed.

It is this kind of support for depraved violence which has poisoned
discourse on this mailing list.  It is unconscionable to support such
an act of cold-blooded terrorism.

You're not even the worst.  Other posters have supported this kind of
sickening violence even more openly.  No one complains.  Apparently
everyone with an ounce of moral sense has left the list long ago.

>>At one time the cypherpunks stood for freedom of speech and protection of
>>privacy.  Today they stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and
>>murder, racism, homophobia, jingoism.
>
>I've been here since the beginning...since before the beginning, actually.
>And I can tell you that the "political incorrectness" was the same in
>1992-4 as now. Perhaps you recall a little thing called Waco that happened
>around that time? Go back and read the traffic.

You seem to think that the only problem with Waco is that the wrong
innocents were killed.  You have no problem taking out innocents
in Washington D.C. if it lets you get at your enemies.  You are no
different from the agents who killed the men, women and children in Waco.
You have no right to set yourself apart from them.  You are as ruthless
and violent as the worst of them.

This list reeks of death and violence.  Apparently there is no problem
which can't be solved by killing.  Kill the innocents of D.C.  Kill the
children in the day care center in Oklahoma City.  Drop more bombs on
Japan.  Cheer the cold-blooded murder of a government agent.  Kill the
children who scrawl graffiti on your mailbox.

>Many of us don't "stand" for freedom of speech if it really means
>suppression of racist, homophobic, whatever speech, as it seems to me in
>many countries today. The Orwellian "freedom of speech does not mean
>freedom to say wrong or offensive things" is a meme that seems to be
>spreading.

Of course you have the right to post what you like.  But when you spew
garbage, I have the right to say it stinks.  It seems that other posters
have lost their sense of smell.  They say that's what happens when you
spend your time wallowing in sewage.






From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de  Fri Nov 14 16:30:14 1997
From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:30:14 +0800
Subject: degree of anonymity
In-Reply-To: <65a00aae0e204b2dbf6415a44da035dd@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <m0xWVrY-0003bcC@ulf.mali.sub.org>



> Have there been any studies done as to the degree
> of anonymity obtained from using these remailers?
> (I haven't been able to find any.)

Have a look at:

David Chaum: Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return Addresses, and Digital
Pseudonyms, Communications of the ACM 24 (1981) 2, pp 84--88,
http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/chaum-acm-1981.html

Wei Dai: Traffic analyzing Chaum's digital mix, 1995,
http://www.eskimo.com/~weidai/traffic.txt

Lance Cottrell: Mixmaster and remailer attacks, 1995,
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/remailer-essay.html


> And does anyone know of any studies being done
> in determining whether or not content-based
> analysis - diction and language - is a reliable
> way to determine identity?

Thomas Horton: Stylometry. In: R. Asher (ed.): The Encyclopedia of
Language and Linguistics, Pergamon Press, 1994, pp 4383--4385.

Joseph Rudman, David I Holmes, Fiona J. Tweedie, R. Harald Baayen: The
State of Authorship Attribution Studies, 1997,
http://www.qucis.queensu.ca/achallc97/papers/s004.html

A somewhat related area:

Ivan Krsul, Eugene Spafford: Authorship Analysis: Identifying The
Author of a Program, 1997,
ftp://coast.cs.purdue.edu/pub/COAST/papers/krsul-authorship_analysis_NISSC.ps.Z






From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 14 17:14:47 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:14:47 +0800
Subject: Ataka Dorn
Message-ID: <199711150104.TAA01930@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>



Anonymous screamed:
> Tim May writes:
  <stuff>
 
> You admit here that you've said you hope to see D.C. nuked.
> 
> Do you really hope that D.C. gets nuked?  Do other list readers agree?
> How many people would this kill?  Over half a million live in the city
> proper, with millions more in the surrounding areas.  You have now said
> that you would hope to see many of these millions of people killed.

  Are you preparing this testimony for the trial, or for the press?
I'd be more than happy to kick in some leftover plutonium for you to
plant in Tim's home, if you plan on setting him up after I've finished
my...uuhhh...home project.
 
> It is this kind of support for depraved violence which has poisoned
> discourse on this mailing list.  It is unconscionable to support such
> an act of cold-blooded terrorism.

  Most of the "poison" seems to be coming from Tim's detractors, chief
of whom is yourself, at present. Why don't you try limiting yourself
to 10,000 words of ranting and finger-pointing for every "Nuke DC"
statment Tim makes?
 
> You're not even the worst.  Other posters have supported this kind of
> sickening violence even more openly.  No one complains.  Apparently
> everyone with an ounce of moral sense has left the list long ago.

  Please give the rest of us credit for being self-willed individuals
who are perfectly capable of promoting our own brand of sickening
violence, rather than just going along with the suggestions that
Tim makes in our late-night secret meetings where we discuss the
our plans for the overthrow of anarchy in the world.

> You seem to think that the only problem with Waco is that the wrong
> innocents were killed.  You have no problem taking out innocents
> in Washington D.C. if it lets you get at your enemies.  You are no
> different from the agents who killed the men, women and children in Waco.
> You have no right to set yourself apart from them.  You are as ruthless
> and violent as the worst of them.

  As Robert Hettinga stated in a previous post, I think that your
constant rants about innocent childen betray some kind of sick 
fixation on them. Please try to keep your hands away from your
private body parts when thinking about them. That might help.
 
> This list reeks of death and violence.  Apparently there is no problem
> which can't be solved by killing.  Kill the innocents of D.C.  Kill the
> children in the day care center in Oklahoma City.  Drop more bombs on
> Japan.  Cheer the cold-blooded murder of a government agent.  Kill the
> children who scrawl graffiti on your mailbox.

  Boy, now I'm having problems keeping my hands away from _my_ private
parts. Back in a minute...

... 
> Of course you have the right to post what you like.  But when you spew
> garbage, I have the right to say it stinks.  It seems that other posters
> have lost their sense of smell.  They say that's what happens when you
> spend your time wallowing in sewage.

  You seem to be the one both pumping most of the sewage and doing
most of the wallowing in it. Of course, you're just groping around
in it looking for 'bad' people, aren't you? It's not like you get
cheap, vicarious thrills dwelling on these kinds of topics.
  When you testify in court, or give your interviews to the press,
remember to keep your hands tucked in your armpits. Folding them
together on your lap might prove to be too much of a temptation.

TruthMangler
  BTW, thanks for those pictures of Princess Di's death scene that
you sent me. Great closeups!






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 17:44:12 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:44:12 +0800
Subject: degree of anonymity
Message-ID: <199711150129.CAA22410@basement.replay.com>



Ulf M�ller wrote:
> Have a look at:
> 
> David Chaum: Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return Addresses, and Digital
> Pseudonyms, Communications of the ACM 24 (1981) 2, pp 84--88,
> http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/chaum-acm-1981.html

 Do other list readers agree? How many people would this kill?  

> Wei Dai: Traffic analyzing Chaum's digital mix, 1995,
> http://www.eskimo.com/~weidai/traffic.txt

It is this kind of support for depraved violence which has poisoned
discourse on this mailing list

> Lance Cottrell: Mixmaster and remailer attacks, 1995,
> http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/remailer-essay.html

This list reeks of death and violence.  Apparently there is no problem
which can't be solved by killing.  Kill the innocents of D.C.  Kill the
children in the day care center in Oklahoma City.  Drop more bombs on
Japan.  Cheer the cold-blooded murder of a government agent.  Kill the
children who scrawl graffiti on your mailbox.

> Thomas Horton: Stylometry. In: R. Asher (ed.): The Encyclopedia of
> Language and Linguistics, Pergamon Press, 1994, pp 4383--4385.

You admit here that you've said you hope to see D.C. nuked.
 
> Joseph Rudman, David I Holmes, Fiona J. Tweedie, R. Harald Baayen: The
> State of Authorship Attribution Studies, 1997,
> http://www.qucis.queensu.ca/achallc97/papers/s004.html

Nothing more than a forged spoof by TruthMangler.
 
> Ivan Krsul, Eugene Spafford: Authorship Analysis: Identifying The
> Author of a Program, 1997,
> ftp://coast.cs.purdue.edu/pub/COAST/papers/krsul-authorship_analysis_NISSC.ps.Z

You have no right to set yourself apart from them.  You are as ruthless
and violent as the worst of them.

Now maybe everyone will see what I mean when I say that those on this
list now only stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and murder,
racism, homophobia.

Anne Ahole






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 14 17:47:07 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:47:07 +0800
Subject: How anonymous?
Message-ID: <145e152a12d12c409f67fd9e4aaa33f4@anon.efga.org>



> It seems that if Dick has a certain vocabulary,
> uses a certain sentence structure, etc., and
> regularly posts using a nym, that this form and
> content could be traced to Dick, so the likelihood
> of the post coming from him and not Jane would
> be that much increased.

This is true.  Probably most people know who I am.






From jito at eccosys.com  Fri Nov 14 17:52:25 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:52:25 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971114141408.1522C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199711150147.KAA08160@eccosys.com>



At 12:22 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> denounced me as a racist.  As a member of a "mongrelized society," as one
> prominent Japanese put it a while back (and not back in the 1940s...it was
> the 1980s), I am always happy to be called a racist by someone from one of
> the most racially homogeneous nations on earth, a nation which of course
> did not allow any "boat people" to settle in their nation, all the while
> denouncing the U.S. for letting only several hundred thousand boat people
> in.

I'm not going to defend Japan on this one. Japan is a rascist society.
Does that make it OK for you to be one too?

> The history of our "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011 at hotmail.com> is apparently
> unknown to Joichi Ito, else he would not have been so quick to brand me a
> racist for my humor.

I'm sorry, but a racial remark is a racial remark. I never said it wasn't
funny and I never said this guy didn't deserve it. But what you said
was racist, no doubt about it, and even if they are funny, I personally
think that racial jokes are stupid and cheap.

On and by the way, I actually didn't think your message was very funny,
and I don't see how you can argue that I shouldn't brand you a rascist
just because you thought you were funny and the guy deserved it.

 - Joi


--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 14 18:00:43 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:00:43 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>



Tim May <tcmay at got.net> wrote:

> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
> >
> 
> It am developed.
> 
> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
> 
> Sayonara!
> 
> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)


Paul Bradley <paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
> find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?

His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers?  That comment
about kicking Japan's butt would really be humorous, wouldn't it?

It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 18:00:47 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:00:47 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
Message-ID: <199711150145.CAA24285@basement.replay.com>



Paul Bradley writes:
>Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
>Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
>magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
>The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights
>activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause
>of animal liberation.
>
>Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

Another example of the violent rhetoric which goes without comment on
this list.

The death penalty is completely inappropriate for this kind of crime.
It should be reserved for the most serious of criminal actions, the most
egregious murders, terrorism, genocide.

An appropriate punishment for a judge who violates his oath of office
and sentences someone wrongly to prison would be a prison sentence for
the judge himself, some multiple of the unjust sentence.

Calling for the death penalty for crimes which do not themselves involve
killing only cheapens life.  Before long you too will support shooting
graffiti vandals and nuking London.






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 18:14:30 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:14:30 +0800
Subject: Tim plans to kill a federal judge
Message-ID: <v03102814b092a6fc7e52@[207.167.93.63]>



At 3:43 PM -0700 11/13/97, Neva Remailer wrote:

>Robert Hettinga wrote:
>>> If Tim and others fail to exercise their right to say what they
>>> believe, then it is likely those rights will be suspended in due
>>> time.
>>
>>Like I said before, it makes sense, but not because Foucault said
>>it. Broken clocks, and all that. Besides, Monty, I hate appeals to
>>authority almost as much as I hate ad honminae.

I just saw this, courtesy of Monty's reply.

This is really rich. Hettinga hates "ad hominae."

This from the guy who started this latest flame war with such choice
phrases as:

"Tim's Way Cool Latter-Day Farnham's-Freehold in the Santa Clara
mountains.... a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself
to be these days... instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of
every statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland.... you won't
have to clean the snot off the end of your
gunbarrel so often..."

Hettinga, heal thyself.

A comment or two on the rest of what Monty is saying:

>Are you asking me to use Foucault's line without giving him credit?
>That doesn't seem right to me.
>
>Foucault's essay was insightful and significantly influenced my point
>of view.  Not only does he deserve the credit, but mentioning his name
>may direct other interested readers toward his work.
>
>BTW, how much of Foucault have you actually read?  I am generally
>unfamiliar with his work, but I have a sinking feeling the same can be
>said for certain of his critics.
>
>It is easy to give French intellectuals a cursory reading and conclude
>that there is nothing there.  However, often there is quite a lot of
>something there, but it comes from people with a different
>intellectual tradition than our own so it is harder to understand.  An
>apparently absurd sentence is often a reference to a body of work with
>which we are not familiar.

By the way, the same can be said about the work of Heidegger, a thinker who
has had some influence on me. Whenever I cite anything Heidegger ever said,
I can count on some numbskull to parrot the "Heidegger was a Nazi" shtick.

(These same kind of folks use to automatically label anything Nietzsche
said as tainted because of the Nazi's later affinity for some of his works,
but the "rehabilitation" of Nietzsche has been largely successful, and N.
is of course now a hero of the Left. Whatever. Nietzsche was of course
neither a leftist nor a rightist...he was just who he was.)

Hettinga has admitted basic ignorance of Foucault, just as he backpedalled
furiously on the "Aurora" claims he made.

(about Hettinga's repeated, and loud, claims in recent days that I have
called for the death of a federal judge)

>Tim has repeatedly made it clear to the world that this was not his
>meaning.  What is your purpose in declaring otherwise?
>

Hettinga shows his true colors by repeating these lies over and over again.
I would not be at all surprised if he has forwarded carefully excerpted
fragments to his friendly FBI offices, hoping they'll make a move to
investigate me.

>In every other instance in which Tim has discussed capital punishment,
>it has been in the context of a trial.
>
>If OJ had committed a brutal murder in a state without the death
>penalty, say Massachusetts, and Tim said "OJ is guilty of a capital
>crime", would you conclude that he was calling for his murder?
>

I have, over the years, expressed my constitutional opinion about many
people whom I think have committed capital crimes. OJ, of course. And Lon
Horiuchi, the shooter at Ruby Ridge. And, if you check the archives, Tim
McVeigh. Fact is, many people have committed capital crimes. And I don't
particularly feel like paying my share of the $50-100K a year to keep them
well fed and housed at Club Fed, so I'd just as soon spend a quarter on a
rifle round and be done with them.

I don't have a clue who "Monty Cantsin" is, but his clear thinking makes it
kind of a shame he will remain a nym forever, unless he declares himself.

(No one, not even Vinge or Card, ever said nyms would carry the same
reputation capital True Names do. Maybe someday. But not in the foreseeable
future.)

>Clearly that would not be reasonable.  So why do you feel the meaning
>changes when "OJ" is substituted for "The judge"?  Perhaps you harbor
>latent urges to murder our public officials and wish to draw attention
>from yourself by pointing the finger at Tim.  You seem to be talking
>about it more than anybody else.
>

Indeed. Hettinga keeps quoting this "Tim plans to kill a federal judge"
mantra so much that I'd better rename the thread to this just to keep
Hettinga happy. There, it's done.

>Incidentally, it is well documented that in the 1980s, the USG had
>detailed plans for mass arrests of dissident citizens.  Ten army camps
>had been selected for this purpose.  The plan was to be executed in
>the event the country invaded Nicaragua.  The USG has incarcerated
>masses of U.S. citizens without trial at least twice during the 20th
>century.
>

Yep. And to show that I am not the jingoist Ito presumes I am, arresting
and imprisoning those of Japanese descent without due process was, of
course, a capital crime.

Had I been a Japanese-American, deprived of my liberty for several years,
with no evidence that I had committed a crime, and with my property
forfeited to the government (often for failure to pay taxes--duh!!!!), I'd
have advocated the death penalty for those who falsely imprisoned me and
stole my land.

But most Jap immigrants were wimps.
....
>Perhaps it is your turn to crack open a book and find the reference.
>I would be quite interested (and surprised) if you can substantiate
>your claim.

Hettinga doesn't bother with research. He just shoots from the hip. He
concentrates on _style_ over substance. Must be his liberal arts training.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Nov 14 18:18:24 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:18:24 +0800
Subject: How anonymous? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711150214.UAA05543@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:36:59 -0500
> From: Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org>
> Subject: How anonymous?

> > It seems that if Dick has a certain vocabulary,
> > uses a certain sentence structure, etc., and
> > regularly posts using a nym, that this form and
> > content could be traced to Dick, so the likelihood
> > of the post coming from him and not Jane would
> > be that much increased.
> 
> This is true.  Probably most people know who I am.

Most people don't care who you are.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 18:18:29 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:18:29 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fb092516361eb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102815b092a7a1a4ec@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:47 PM -0700 11/14/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>I'm sorry, but a racial remark is a racial remark. I never said it wasn't
>funny and I never said this guy didn't deserve it. But what you said
>was racist, no doubt about it, and even if they are funny, I personally
>think that racial jokes are stupid and cheap.

And where was there any mention of "race"? If a Chinese person made the
same joke about Nakatuji-san's "You send money, I send Misty" nonsense,
would this be "racist" (or "racialist," in your parlance)? How about if a
Pole made the same joke about a Ukrainian, or a Swede, or a German?


>On and by the way, I actually didn't think your message was very funny,
>and I don't see how you can argue that I shouldn't brand you a rascist
>just because you thought you were funny and the guy deserved it.
>
> - Joi

I really don't care if you found it funny or not.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Nov 14 18:24:16 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:24:16 +0800
Subject: Key Signing
Message-ID: <19971115022001.20918.qmail@nym.alias.net>



>BTW, I was farting around and discovered that I could change the
>password on a revoked secret key. This means that someone can crack
>the password on your revoked secret key if they have access to it.
>This would make your new key vulnerable if you used the same password.
>
>I suppose this qualifies as PGP trivia, but if it saves the life of
>just one fascist dicator...
>
>!Knott (Who's dare?)

When I read this a quote from Independance Day came to mind. The aliens just
blew up New York and a cable exec is sitting in his car. As the firestorm
comes towards him and he's facing both immiment death by being crushed by
cars displaced by the explosion and becoming a Whopper(tm) from the
firestorm he looks out and says simply:

"Ohhhhhhhh craaaaaaap."






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Nov 14 18:28:58 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:28:58 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711142125.WAA13486@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <uZT7Fe22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Tim May wrote:
>
> > Just so.
> >
> > I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> > denounced me as a racist.
>
> Dimitri's humor is more humorous, anyway.

Timmy's not funny.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Nov 14 18:30:52 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:30:52 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <36s7Fe20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May <tcmay at got.net> writes:
> Even here on Cypherpunks we see toadies like Bob Hettinga fretting that our
> words are going too far, that we must learn to police ourselves or the
> police will be forced to do so.

Don't forget C2Net emplpoyess "Lucky Green" and Greg Broils spreading lies
about their employer's censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 18:30:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:30:58 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102816b092a92800d7@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:54 PM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:

>Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?
>
>His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
>you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
>included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers?  That comment
>about kicking Japan's butt would really be humorous, wouldn't it?

Seems to me that people imitate the accents of others all the time. I just
saw Eddie Griffin on HBO, "Voodoo Child," doing some dead-on imitations of
honkeys, Brits, and other blacks. So?

>It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
>make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
>racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
>to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
>have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

Their likely clients don't given one whit what comments they may have made
on mailing lists. Hell, their clients don't even care if they're
card-carrying members of the KKK.

>Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
>not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
>you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
>case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.

Utter nonsense. Business clients don't care. Nor do the Japs care, as they
have made vastly more racist remarks every day of every year for the past
half century or more.

Sensitive flowers such as yourself need to move out of places like
Amsterdam and get with the program.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Nov 14 18:37:47 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:37:47 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Mug Shot
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971115023114.00c93684@pop.pipeline.com>



Jim Bell's mug shot from US News (and mine):

   http://jya.com/jbjy.jpg

The terrifying story itself:

   http://jya.com/next-wave.htm







From jito at eccosys.com  Fri Nov 14 18:43:38 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:43:38 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711150147.KAA08160@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711150238.LAA08322@eccosys.com>



At 18:16 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> And where was there any mention of "race"? If a Chinese person made the
> same joke about Nakatuji-san's "You send money, I send Misty" nonsense,

At 22:10 97/11/12 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> It am developed.
> 
> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
> 
> Sayonara!
> 
> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

No, you didn't mention "race". Why don't you look up racist in the
dictionary.

> I really don't care if you found it funny or not.

And I don't care that you don't care. ;-P

- Joi

P.S. One famous cypherpunk once told me, "Never corner a Tim May."
Maybe I better stop...

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From dev-null at netscape.com  Fri Nov 14 18:54:16 1997
From: dev-null at netscape.com (Frederick G.M. Roeber)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:54:16 +0800
Subject: CH (Was: Scared of US; Where to relocate?)
In-Reply-To: <199711121431.PAA10956@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <346D0ACC.19BD7A86@netscape.com>



Switzerland jumps to mind for points 1-3: stable politically, good
economy, and first class medical.  There is a job market, but they're
very restrictive about letting people in, particularly if you might want
a job that a Swiss would do.  It helps if you're rich.

That every reservist has a machine gun at home is well known, but I
don't know what restrictions would be placed on an immigrant.  One of
the safest places I've been, though.

"[American] Bill of Rights" type freedoms may not be as enshrined as in
the US, but on the other hand they often take a more pragmatic aproach
to issues (like drugs).

The taxes are high, as is the cost of living.  There are strong social
programs just about everywhere.  It's landlocked.  Consumerism isn't as
developed there, which translates to poor service and bad selections.

Not perfect, but nice.  I'd feel a lot happier raising kids there than
here in the US.
-- 
Frederick G.M. Roeber
My e-mail address is "roeber," not "dev-null."  Anti-spam thing..






From jito at eccosys.com  Fri Nov 14 18:57:53 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:57:53 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711150250.LAA08346@eccosys.com>



At 18:25 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Utter nonsense. Business clients don't care. Nor do the Japs care, as they
> have made vastly more racist remarks every day of every year for the past
> half century or more.

Bullshit. I won't work with racist Japanese or racist Americans.
I've seen many business deals fall apart because of a few stupid
racist remarks.

And not all Japanese are racist pigs. And before you flank me,
I take back my previous remark where I insinuated that Americans
were racist. Not all Americans are racists. Just the stupid ones are.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 20:40:16 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:40:16 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102819b092c8404f19@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:26 PM -0700 11/14/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> (Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his upheld,
>> look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal charges.)
>
>I do not think that it is entirely impossible either, but the likely
>scenario is that the government may first try to harass us and attempt
>the criminal charges only after some time.
>
>In any case, the present structure of cypherpunks list is entirely
>unacceptable. We have only three working nodes. This is bad since all
>of these nodes reside in the US and can be taken out easily.
>
>Besides government raids, we are all too susceptible on things like
>internet providers kicking us out, hard drives failing, and so on.
>Theree nodes is not a good redundancy.
>
>I plead foreign cypherpunks to at least establish backup nodes that could
>be turned on should anything happen to the US-based ones.

I said this several years ago and I'll say it again: the Usenet is already
set up for multinational, distributed, essentially uncensorable
communication.

I used to try to copy many of my posts to alt.cypherpunks shortly after it
was created, right after the the Great February End of Toad.com, but in
recent months I haven'te bothered (mainly because no interesting
communication was occurring in the alt.cypherpunks arena).

One need only look to Usenet for a robust, automatically (and
automagically) distributed system.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From ichudov at algebra.com  Fri Nov 14 21:04:09 1997
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:04:09 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711150426.WAA19726@manifold.algebra.com>



Tim May wrote:
> (Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his upheld,
> look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal charges.)

I do not think that it is entirely impossible either, but the likely
scenario is that the government may first try to harass us and attempt
the criminal charges only after some time.

In any case, the present structure of cypherpunks list is entirely
unacceptable. We have only three working nodes. This is bad since all
of these nodes reside in the US and can be taken out easily.

Besides government raids, we are all too susceptible on things like 
internet providers kicking us out, hard drives failing, and so on.
Theree nodes is not a good redundancy.

I plead foreign cypherpunks to at least establish backup nodes that could
be turned on should anything happen to the US-based ones.

	- Igor.






From ichudov at algebra.com  Fri Nov 14 21:05:34 1997
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:05:34 +0800
Subject: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <199711141623.QAA03067@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711150429.WAA19784@manifold.algebra.com>



int main=0xc8c70ff0;


igor

Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> f00fie writes:
> > In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
> > Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:
> > 
> >    main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}
> 
> Hey, challenge is on:
> 
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();} /* f00fies 44 char */
> main(){((int(*)())"\360\017\307\310")();}
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0,(*f)()=&i;f();}
> main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
> (*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */
> 
> Compiled with gcc.
> 
> (Note that I haven't tested them because I have an AMD k5 which
> doesn't suffer from this bug -- perhaps someone with an Intel pentium
> could try them).
> 
> Adam
> 



	- Igor.






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 21:05:41 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:05:41 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711150345.EAA06240@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102818b092c617ccff@[207.167.93.63]>



At 8:45 PM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Joichi Ito, <jito at eccosys.com>, writes:
>> And not all Japanese are racist pigs. And before you flank me,
>> I take back my previous remark where I insinuated that Americans
>> were racist. Not all Americans are racists. Just the stupid ones are.
>
>This is not true.  Tim May is not stupid.  He is insensitive and bigoted,
>violent and dangerous.
>
>He is certainly a racist, and believes in the superiority of the white race.
>
>But he is not stupid.

Interestingly, I don't even believe there is such a thing as "the white
race." The 19th century classification of homo sapiens into Negroid,
Caucasoid, and Mongoloid, the putative "three races," is without merit.

Based on certain external characteristics, there are at least a dozen
"races." And the concept is largely meaningless. Italians are as "far" from
Swedes as, say, Thais are from Han Chinese. The point being....

The point being  I don't care what race a person is officially classed as
(and yet I had to racially classify job applicants when I was at Intel,
courtesy of the EEOC rules on quotas).

I call a spade a spade.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Nov 14 21:09:02 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:09:02 +0800
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b0902b2616d6@[204.254.21.105]>
Message-ID: <v0300780fb092da59bde9@[168.161.105.216]>



Jonah, mon ami, I had almost forgotten the details of this little episode
in 1995 where CDT praises the "harmful to minors" version of the CDA.
Thanks for reminding me to refresh my memory. This excerpt is from a
document called "CDT-led Coalition letter to Telecomm Conferees, 11/9/95"
that lives at your web site.

http://www.cdt.org/policy/freespeech/1109_iwg_ltr.html
>"We believe it is possible to craft a criminal statute that punishes
>those who provide truly harmful material to children in a manner
>that both targets the serious offenses about which some conservative
>family groups are most concerned, and that also will withstand
>constitutional scrutiny. In particular, rather than relying on the
>vague and constitutionally suspect "indecency" standard, Congress
>should instead consider the "harmful to minors" standard within the
>framework of Title 18 of the United Sates Code. This standard is
>used in numerous state statutes and has been found constitutional
>by the United States Supreme Court."

-Declan

ObBillGates: Microsoft signed the letter too.







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 21:10:54 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:10:54 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711150345.EAA06240@basement.replay.com>



Joichi Ito, <jito at eccosys.com>, writes:
> And not all Japanese are racist pigs. And before you flank me,
> I take back my previous remark where I insinuated that Americans
> were racist. Not all Americans are racists. Just the stupid ones are.

This is not true.  Tim May is not stupid.  He is insensitive and bigoted,
violent and dangerous.

He is certainly a racist, and believes in the superiority of the white race.

But he is not stupid.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 21:10:56 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:10:56 +0800
Subject: What cypherpunks used to be
Message-ID: <199711150400.FAA07660@basement.replay.com>



Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
to defend it.

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
cryptosystems.

Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
to play with secure communications of all kinds.

Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks
may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write.
Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down. This is why cypherpunks
itself is a distributed mailing list.

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.






From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Nov 14 21:10:58 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:10:58 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Mug Shot
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971115023114.00c93684@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809b092c7835040@[168.161.105.216]>



At 21:31 -0500 11/14/97, John Young wrote:
>   http://jya.com/next-wave.htm

Fascinating. My original article about Jim Bell's raid is at:

 http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html

I like these grafs:

Characters like James Dalton Bell are giving federal officials fits these days.
Bell, they believe, is one of a new generation of tinkerers and
technicians, of college-educated
extremists threatening to use biological, chemical, or radiological weapons
to achieve their goals.
Since the Aum cult's Tokyo nerve gas attack, FBI officials say the number
of credible threats to use
these weapons has jumped from a handful in 1995, to 20 last year, to twice
that number this year.
Among the incidents was the 1995 mailing of a videotape to Disneyland,
showing two hands
mixing chemicals and a note threatening an attack on the theme park.
Despite a major investigation,
the sender was never caught. Just last April someone sent a petri dish
labeled anthrax, an animal
disease deadly to humans, to the B'nai B'rith headquarters in Washington,
D.C. That proved to be
a hoax.

The recipes for such poison cocktails are available from underground
publishers and on the
Internet. One popularizer is an Arkansan named Kurt Saxon. Through books
and videotapes,
Saxon has been putting out ricin recipes for at least nine years. Convinced
that the U.S. will be
invaded and that the federal government can't be trusted to defend the
country, he has fashioned
various homemade explosives and poisons, including cyanide grenades and
ricin applicators. In one
segment of a $19.95 video, Saxon performs like a sinister Julia Child,
blending salt water and
solvents with castor beans. ("Pour in about 4 ounces of acetone," he says,
"and shake it up nice.")
"Uncle Fester," another near-legendary figure in the chem-bio underground,
has authored such
family classics as Silent Death, Improvised Explosives, and a guide to
methamphetamine and LSD
manufacture. Fester claims degrees in chemistry and biology, and his Silent
Death describes how to
produce poison gas, botulin and shellfish toxins, and ricin.

Similarly, entire manuals for making homemade explosives--TNT, plastic,
napalm--can be
downloaded from the Net, as well as plans for building triggers, fuses, and
timers. At least 11
online vendors offer books with recipes on biological or chemical weapons,
including Silent Death
and Kurt Saxon's The Poor Man's James Bond. All are based in the United
States. Adding to the
problem, many of the chemicals used to make nerve gas and other agents have
perfectly legitimate
uses and are readily available. "The genie has always been out of the
bottle," says one intelligence
analyst. "People are just discovering it."

-Declan







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov 14 21:20:30 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:20:30 +0800
Subject: Fwd: RNC/Lister's Calls Marines "Dangerous", "Extremists"
Message-ID: <v04002723b092ce0767ec@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


From: <Somebody>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:20:08 -0500 (EST)
To: rah at shipwright.com, <A bunch of other people...>
Subject: Fwd: RNC/Lister's Calls Marines "Dangerous", "Extremists"

I'm sure you all saw this in the newspapers and on TV.  The media were on it
like...
like..., well, like media in pursuit of Democrats.

I don't know why I thought of <one of above bunch>

Re: Br'er Tim....

I was sure Bob's mother taught him better than to get into a pissing match
with the business end of a sewer.


<Somebody's .sig>
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	shenry2 at ix.netcom.com (Sean Henry)
Sender:	PRESSLIST at rnc.org (RNC Press List)
Reply-to:	shenry2 at ix.netcom.com (Sean Henry)
To:	PRESSLIST at BRONZE.RNC.ORG (Multiple recipients of list PRESSLIST)
Date: 97-11-13 16:29:57 EST

RNC News Release

November 13, 1997

Nicholson Calls On Assistant Army Secretary To Step Down
Lister Calls Marines "Dangerous," "Extremists"

     Republican National Committee Chairman Jim Nicholson today
called on Assistant Secretary of the Army Sara E. Lister to resign
her position, following a speech in which she referred to U.S.
Marines as "extremists," and "a little dangerous."

     "It's astonishing that Secretary Lister has chosen to
denigrate the Marine Corps, and it is absolutely unacceptable to
have a person with this kind of mindset in a position of power at
the Pentagon," Nicholson said.  "For the good of the morale of
America's Armed Forces, she should publicly apologize and resign
immediately."

     Lister, one of President Clinton's Pentagon appointees, told
a panel of academics and military personnel at Harvard
University's Olin Institute in Baltimore on October 26, that "The
Marines are extremists.  Wherever you have extremists, you've got
some risks of total disconnection with society.  And that's a
little dangerous."

     "These 'extremists' have fought and died for our country for
more than two centuries," Nicholson said, noting that the Marine
Corps celebrated its 222nd anniversary November 10.  "Service
secretaries are supposed to support our men and women in uniform,
not publicly degrade their valor.  Her remarks serve as evidence
of her ignorance about what it takes to assemble and maintain an
effective fighting unit."

     Nicholson, a retired Army colonel, Army Ranger in Vietnam and
West Point graduate, said Lister's comments are reflective of what
he called the Clinton Administration's anti-military attitude.
"Bill Clinton wrote that he 'loathed' the military and he's
apparently appointed people who share his anti-military view,"
Nicholson said.

     Rising tensions between the U.S. and Iraq also demonstrate
the need for effective military leadership.  "A person with such a
negative attitude toward the patriots who serve in uniform has no
business in any military organization," Nicholson said.  "With
this administration contemplating the use of military force in
response to Saddam Hussein's lawless arrogance, it is inexcusable
for the Assistant Secretary of the Army to insult the very men and
women who would be on the front lines."

(Visit http://www.rnc.org for the latest news and information)

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 21:28:01 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:28:01 +0800
Subject: What cypherpunks used to be
Message-ID: <199711150522.GAA15493@basement.replay.com>



evolve or die






From emc at wire.insync.net  Fri Nov 14 21:28:57 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:28:57 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v03102819b092c8404f19@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711150525.XAA27459@wire.insync.net>



Timothy C. May writes:

> One need only look to Usenet for a robust, automatically (and
> automagically) distributed system.

Usenet is horribly unreliable, alt and obscure newsgroups doubly so. 

Usenet is also slow.  Posts can take days to schlep their way across
servers.

A mailing list or web-based Cypherpunks, gated to and from a newsgroup,
might be an acceptable compromise.  That way we could still chat in
something resembling real time, with the newsgroup to fall back upon in
case SWAT teams took out all the list servers.

Of course, a newsgroup any moron could access from AOL without having to
"subscrive" would probably attract additional trolls and spam. 

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"








From schear at lvdi.net  Fri Nov 14 21:37:46 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:37:46 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <1f6c13f75e895afd9ec8f5d61ed19ff9@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v03102810b092543a2372@[208.129.55.202]>



>Injustice happens everyday.  The next time you find yourself at Burger
>King stuffing yourself with greasy slop, think of the millions of people
>in Africa who are slowly starving to death.  Injustice, yes, but what
>are you going to do about it?  Anything?
>
>The fact is you can't do anything, even if you wanted to.  And because
>of that we all become reactionary, angered, resentful, violent.  We
>perpetuate the disintegration of mankind, of ourselves.
>
>No people in their right mind should bow down and lick the boots of their
>oppressors.  But neither should they kill them either.  The intelligent
>action is to show the oppressors the errors in their ways.  Every human 
>being, even our "enemies" have a mind that is not completely devoid of
>reason.  The sooner we show them a better way of living, the sooner we can 
>move toward it.  Then the possibility for an end to the injustices that
>surround us becomes more available.

Many injustices follow from form and scale of government.  I won't be the first to point out that as the number of people, geography and ethnic diversity increase governance becomes ever more difficult and as is the balancing of individual liberty over the "overiding interests of the society."  The solution is clear, the method of its emergence is not.  Smaller geo-political units.  I doubt that our pressing social and political problems can be adequately delt with until the scale of governance is changed, but this requires those in the center to give up much and historically this has rarely if ever happened without bloodshed.

--Steve







From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Nov 14 22:05:56 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:05:56 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <97Nov11.113405est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971115153741.130D-100000@shirley>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:

[...]

> I believe in separation of church and state.  The state must get out of
> things like education and welfare (charity) and other things that are not
> their responsibility.

The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
because of this free scular education is a basic right that
should be prodided by the state.  

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Fri Nov 14 22:10:25 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:10:25 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <xTDuLiJ7Ea7FB3r2TlUnFw==@bureau42.ml.org>



 15 Nov 97 at 0:45, Anonymous wrote:

> Tim May writes:
> >At 10:55 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >>If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable,
> >>you are implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent. 

No it does not.  Silence may mean you are to appalled to even post!

> >>How many
> >>people have objected to Tim May's racist comments?  Only one or
> >>two.  How many objected when William Geiger suggested that more
> >>nuclear bombs should have been dropped on Japan? 

Maybe the little marine was right about that.

> >through my archived mail), along the lines of: "I fully expect to
> >wake up some morning and hear that some terrorist nuke has
> >destroyed Washington, D.C. I can't say I'll be crying."
> 
> Try this:
> 
> : To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
> : From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
> : Subject: Snickering at the Compromisers
> : Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:03:37 -0800
> : 
> : For the 3rd or 4th time, I have never advocated terrorism, at
> least not of : a physical sort. I have said I hope to see D.C.
> nuked, which is hardly the : same as "advocating" terrorism in any
> meaningful sense

> You admit here that you've said you hope to see D.C. nuked.
> 
> Do you really hope that D.C. gets nuked?  Do other list readers
> agree?

No way.  But I feel, at times, it's bad enough to be *reading* that 
stuff let alone posting about it!

> How many people would this kill?  Over half a million live in
> the city proper, with millions more in the surrounding areas.  You
> have now said that you would hope to see many of these millions of
> people killed.

I think "nuke DC" has become almost a turn of the phrase, these days.
 
> It is this kind of support for depraved violence which has poisoned
> discourse on this mailing list.  It is unconscionable to support
> such an act of cold-blooded terrorism.
> 
> You're not even the worst.  Other posters have supported this kind
> of sickening violence even more openly.  No one complains. 

OK.  Here I go.  I come down on the complaining side.

> Apparently everyone with an ounce of moral sense has left the list
> long ago.

Nope.  Just lurking.
 
> >>At one time the cypherpunks stood for freedom of speech and
> >>protection of privacy.  Today they stand for guns, violence,
> >>threats of terrorism and murder, racism, homophobia, jingoism.

Those things all go hand in hand.

> >I've been here since the beginning...since before the beginning,
> >actually. And I can tell you that the "political incorrectness" was
> >the same in 1992-4 as now. Perhaps you recall a little thing called
> >Waco that happened around that time? Go back and read the traffic.

I first signed on in 1994.
 
> You seem to think that the only problem with Waco is that the wrong
> innocents were killed.  You have no problem taking out innocents in
> Washington D.C. if it lets you get at your enemies.  You are no
> different from the agents who killed the men, women and children in
> Waco. You have no right to set yourself apart from them.  You are as
> ruthless and violent as the worst of them.
> 
> This list reeks of death and violence.  Apparently there is no
> problem which can't be solved by killing.  Kill the innocents of
> D.C.  Kill the children in the day care center in Oklahoma City. 
> Drop more bombs on Japan.  Cheer the cold-blooded murder of a
> government agent.  Kill the children who scrawl graffiti on your
> mailbox.

Well, I used to say Kill Them All And Let God Sort Them Out back when 
I was in the military.

NoMongerHere







From blancw at cnw.com  Fri Nov 14 22:17:56 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:17:56 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Mug Shot
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971114221533.006c1b70@cnw.com>



John Young wrote:

>Jim Bell's mug shot from US News (and mine):
>
>   http://jya.com/jbjy.jpg
.............................................

Well, John, this is kind of amusing - why in the world did you put your
photos together?   You could become confused as being associated, you know.  
    ..
Blanc






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 14 22:25:39 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:25:39 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <97Nov11.113405est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v0310281db092e0eb1aa8@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:40 PM -0700 11/14/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
>because of this free scular education is a basic right that
>should be prodided by the state.

The"system" asssumes no such thing, any more than "the system assumes a
non-starving electorate, hence the state should provide meals for all."

Get an education, kid.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From bsafeeay at cypherpunks.to  Fri Nov 14 23:15:35 1997
From: bsafeeay at cypherpunks.to (BSAFE International)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:15:35 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971116023658.410D-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

BSAFEeay alpha 1 is now available! 

BSAFEeay, also known as BSAFE International, is a public domain 
implementation of the BSAFE API, implemented outside the US and 
based on public domain source code which uses BSAFE, such as SETref.

BSAFEeay currently implements enough of the BSAFE API to support
SETref, with more support coming soon. Combined with SETref, BSAFEeay
enables the first entirely public domain SET implementation.

For more information and to download, visit:

        https://www.cypherpunks.to/

BSAFEeay is NOT a product of RSA Data Security, Inc. and you still
must license RSA in the US.

- --
BSAFE International <bsafeeay at cypherpunks.to>
https://www.cypherpunks.to/



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 5.0i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNG6bj5M0Bmsl+tm9AQFZuwP/SiLg3ZB6RbZ/+I6Wl8+luIP5fiYgS1Yv
ItxyZQ+EHxV5Ud6fSC2PEf2hw2vWo/S77AMSp5jf1I8xCWk6hcfyI/c/5kS3vKzo
hmns6B6y2puzfwmtLltuzhgoldxkmh1aFsRnzymuH1NT+jpPjvmCTIVX+7kDAJYR
SBfAK0ZO3Zs=
=X7Yl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Fri Nov 14 23:27:00 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:27:00 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <WTpiWQFqaSehTjY5K+b63g==@bureau42.ml.org>



Mark Koernke "Mark of Michigan" Arrested Today

by WebToday Staff Writers


November 14, 1997


Mark Koernke (aka "Mark of Michigan") was arrested on Friday, November 
14, 1997. 

A warrant for his arrest was issued on November 7 in Washteneau County 
for aggravated assault for allegedly beating up process server Roger 
Gainer while being served with a summons by the defense lawyers of John 
Stevenson. Stevenson had plead guilty of being an accessory after the 
fact in the murder last year of William "Bill" Gleason in Hillsdale, 
Michigan. 

More charges are expected to be filed against Korernke and other 
individuals in the ongoing investigation of the Gleason murder which is 
often referred to as "the Hillsdale murder."

Richard Champion (aka Carl Miller) was arrested two weeks ago for 
failure to respond to a subpoena but has since bonded out of jail. Bond 
was set at $22,000.

Bill Gleason was reportedly one of Mark Koernke's bodyguards. Both were 
members of the U. S. Militia. Neither Koernke nor Gleason were ever 
members of the Michigan Militia Corps Wolverines (MMCW). The MMCW, 
headquartered in Muskegon, Michigan and is led by Commander Lynn Jon Van 
Huizen. It is believed to be the largest militia group in Michigan and 
perhaps the largest in the U. S. 

Koernke is a resident of Dexter, Michigan and works for the University 
of Michigan in Ann Arbor. He is known for his "American in Peril" video 
and is a shortwave radio commentator.
--------------------------------------------------------------------


This is confirmed as I spoke with John Statdmiller personally 10 minutes ago.

Mark Koernke was arrested a few hours ago. Charges are felony firearms
possession.Local County prosecuter bringing the charges is Donald Ray of the
14th District. His office number is 313 971 0078
Mark is scheduled for arraignment at 2PM Eastern Time










From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 14 23:51:47 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:51:47 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711150745.IAA29472@basement.replay.com>



On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 8:00 PM -0700 9/26/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >Does anybody want MISTY algorithm ?
> >If you want it,Please send e-mail to me.
> >
> 
> I thought we got rid of your sorry ass two weeks ago!
> 
> Go back to trying to arrange "male penpals," which Dejanews shows to be
> your activity on the Net prior to this recent playing of Misty.
> 
> You go, chop chop.

More of Tim "chop chop" May's racism.  This is the man that you claim to
have respect for.  You must be turning your head away in embarrassment
from this offensive behavior.  But he's not embarrassed about it, so why
should you be?  Look plainly at the kind of man you are dealing with,
and ask whether he deserves your respect.






From kent at songbird.com  Sat Nov 15 00:05:51 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:05:51 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971114235753.18387@songbird.com>



On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 02:17:12PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
> > The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> > and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
> > one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
> > all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
> > its leader.
> 
> At the risk of responding to a post which has a good probability of being 
> a troll I will at least say that the above opinion may be that of several 
> members, but the fact is the list has evolved, it never had an original 
> defined purpose, at least not one easily put into words, and applauding 
> murder of government agents is a part of the whole strong crypto privacy 
> and liberty ethic.

Bullshit.  Applauding murder has nothing to do with strong crypto 
privacy or liberty.

> As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
> find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

Tim's post is an example of what the RACIST world knows as humor, 
Paul.  Racism isn't an intellectual phenomenon, it is a gut 
phenomenon.  Frequently it manifests itself in humor.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From kent at songbird.com  Sat Nov 15 00:17:42 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:17:42 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971115000110.24436@songbird.com>



On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 12:22:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> 
> Just so.

Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.

> I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> denounced me as a racist.  As a member of a "mongrelized society," as one
> prominent Japanese put it a while back (and not back in the 1940s...it was
> the 1980s), I am always happy to be called a racist by someone from one of
> the most racially homogeneous nations on earth, a nation which of course
> did not allow any "boat people" to settle in their nation, all the while
> denouncing the U.S. for letting only several hundred thousand boat people
> in.

Translation:  Don't look at me, look at those dirty racist japs.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 15 00:29:24 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:29:24 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115001920.007385fc@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 08:54 PM 11/14/1997 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  

Well of _course_ it's offensive - he was trying to offend the guy, after all.....


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 15 00:33:00 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:33:00 +0800
Subject: Key Signing
In-Reply-To: <199711141003.LAA02307@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115002328.00739298@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 02:47 PM 11/14/1997 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Except, how was Bill able to change the passphrase if he didn't know the
>old one?

It's one of Richard Stallman's old passwords.....

I was surprised that PGP 5.0 does the right thing when the passphrase
is empty - it's one of those things that's easy to miss, and in C
often leads to bad behaviour.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From phelix at vallnet.com  Sat Nov 15 01:20:05 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:20:05 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
Message-ID: <346f67da.7701710@128.2.84.191>



Well, PGP has come to it's senses and is allowing non-commercial developers
to use the sdk for free.  I didn't notice anything too ominous in the
license agreement, and they promise a new licensing/prices for shareware
and small commercial developers.

Perhaps nobody is buying the sdk at it's current highly inflated licensing
price.

http://www.pgp.com/sdk/noncomm.cgi

-- Phelix






From phelix at vallnet.com  Sat Nov 15 01:25:29 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:25:29 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk and freeware developers
Message-ID: <34706895.7888814@128.2.84.191>



I just had a thought.

How does a freeware developer in the US distribute a program that uses
PGPsdk?  Would one have to set up an export-controlled web site to make
sure them 'bad' foreigners don't get it?  

-- Phelix






From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 15 01:37:43 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:37:43 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <346D6BA2.1DDC@dev.null>



Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 12:22:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:

> > >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> > >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> > >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> >
> > Just so.
 
> Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.

Jesus H. Fucking Christ!
I'm beginning to doubt if anyone participating in this thread knows
what the fuck racism even is...or what humor is, either, for that
matter.
  Racism is a bunch of idiots who think that pissing on someone who
_may_ be of a differnet ethinic origin, in a pissing contest, is racism.
  Humor is listening to you idiots piss all over each other while
Nonookie Masturbatshi, or whatever the fuck Hoshito Hotmail's alias is,
sits back pulling his or her pud (I noticed all you sexists assume
the anonymous poster is a 'male') laughing like a banshee.

  I wish I had a dime for every dipshit who has given me crap over the
years treating [your politically correct word for 'colored folks' here]
and [your politically correct word for 'cripples' here] like everyone
else, instead of bending over backwards to treat them 'special' by
kissing their ass, or pretending they aren't different from me.
  Well, when a spic, nigger, wop, kike, raghead, slant or wagon burner
is broken down on the side of the road on a dark and stormy night, I'm
the fucking one out there getting cold and wet helping them out, while
all of the politically correct types lock their doors while driving
by at 60 mph.

  I put out Country Porno albums that are sexist, racist, and contain
plenty of violence and obscenity. I've sold them to both sexes, all
races, pacifists and anal-retentives. I've sang "There's no niggers
left in Oakland, babe, and all my lies are true." for 2,000 midnight
black people in Nairobi, Kenya, and for the crowd passing the bottle
around in front of the Greyhound station in the heart of Oakland.
I've sung "Butt-fuck me Jesus, through the bedposts of life." in the
heart of the Bible Belt, and "I ate my dog last night." to a roomful
of Vietnamese. And I usually get standing ovations, except when the
boys and girls down at the Greyhound station aren't in any condition
to stand.
  I played up on White Bear Reserve a few weeks back, and when my fans
asked me how I liked their reservation, I told them it was real nice,
but that there were too fucking many Indians there. I'm sure if there
was some round-eyed, foreign-devil white-bread asshole listening in,
I would have gotten a lecture on racism.

  What the fuck is wrong with the dweebs who have nothing better to
do than run around trying to make political hay (and big bucks)
whining about Cleveland Indian fans doing the tomahawk-chop, and
Mr. Magoo knocking stuff over?
  I knew the guy in New York who started the campaign to clothe
horses and other animals so that their dicks were covered. He thought
it was a hoot, but he had people that were ready to kill for the
cause. I can hardly wait until we are all subject to imprisonment
for calling ducks web-footed, instead of 'digitaly enjoined,' or some
such crapola.

  Why the fuck is everybody on the list fighting Masturbatshi's battles
for him when she doesn't seem to feel the need to do so itself?
  NEWS FLASH!!!
  You're all fighting your own inner demons. I didn't hear Nonooke
crying out for your help.

  "In reality, we talk only to ourselves, but sometimes we talk loud
enough that others may hear us."
- Kahil Gibran

  I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference. 
Except when I'm having a bad no-hair between my teeth day.

  I used to play in Austin with a Japanese kid who did Hank Williams
songs and I laughed my ass off at him. When I sang "I got a feering
carred the bruise." in a Vietnamese karokee bar, everyone laughed 
their ass off at me.
  MAJOR HINT: "We're here for a good time, not a long time, so have a
good time, the sun doesn't shine every day."

  I may be wearing oversized shoes and have a red bulb on my nose, but
you fuckers are hilarious.

TruthMonger,
Former President,
   Pearl Harbor Computers
"We've been bombed since 1941."






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov 15 01:37:51 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:37:51 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971114182550.229A@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> >Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.
> 
> This stifling of free speech, by both state and corporate interests, is a
> trend spreadingl like wildfire in the Western world.

Indeed, it is more and more the case that I see opinions in officials and 
members of the public that would be comically stupid, if they did not 
infringe so far on the rights of others. There are many reasons for this, 
mostly rooted in the controlled media, education as well, to choose any 
old example, the use in schools of the word "wrong" to mean "illegal" 
restricts the vocabulary of children in such a way as to encourage the 
synonymity of the two words, eg. If the govt. says it`s wrong it is wrong, 
regardless of the ethical arguments. Even seemingly intelligent adults 
fail to make the distinction between legality/illegality and right/wrong.
I may be ranting here, but whenever I get into discussion about this I am 
reminded of the stubborn behaviour of many acquaintances of mine, even some 
fairly intelligent family members who, given the chance, would restrict 
the speech of others to what was deemed "appropriate", this in turn leaves 
me ranting and frustrated because I cannot get away with putting these 
people up against a wall and taking the appropriate action with a .45,
which, I can assure you, would relieve a great deal of stress.

> Libel, slander, defamation, damage, incitement, sedition, and obscenity
> cases are squelching free speech. Publishers are held liable for the words
> of others, and even distributors are held liable.

Indeed, Libel is merely an official way of recovering losses incurred due 
to the stupidity of the general public, if I publish a defamatory and 
unpleasant story about Tim in a newsgroup, he can sue me because of the 
damage done to his reputation, of course, only stupid members of the 
public believe unfounded and referenceless (is that a real word???? ;-)) 
defamatory stories about others, and the more people that believe a 
story, the higher the compensation required, hence, it can be shown that 
the relative size of libel case settlements is inversely proportional to 
the average IQ of the general public ;-)....

> (Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his upheld,
> look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal charges.)

Looks like it`s about time I set up majordomo on my other acct and 
started running a node, lets see what UK law has to say.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 15 02:26:08 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:26:08 +0800
Subject: What Joichi *meant* to say was...
In-Reply-To: <199711150345.EAA06240@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <346D73DB.7CA8@dev.null>



Joichi Ito, <jito at eccosys.com>, writes:
> And not all Japanese are racist pigs. And before you flank me,
> I take back my previous remark where I insinuated that Americans
> were racist. Not all Americans are racists. Just the stupid ones are.

  Jesus! Is *everyone* working for the fucking CDT spin-doctors, now?

  "I take back my remark where I insinuated that Japs are slant-eyed
gooks who smell bad, so I'm not *really* a racist...
  "And by this time tomorrow, I will *never* have said it at all."

  I wouldn't be so quick to call all racists stupid...remember, we
can't be sure that was really Hitler's body they found, and people
who set out to conquer the world don't usually take kindly to being
called stupid.

  Is it National Paint With A Wide Brush Day?
  Did I miss the announcement? 
  If all racists are stupid, are all liberals queer? Are we still 
working that old, tired game?

  Is it my imagination, or is the rapid decline of the quality of posts
to the list in the last few days a direct result of the ignorant and
emotional posts by those complaining about the decline in the quality
of the posts to the list?
  Can you say, "Self-fulfilling prophecy?"...sure, you can...

TruthMonger
"I'm always right, and I never lie."  - Richard Whitehouse Nixon







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov 15 02:53:25 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:53:25 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711151035.LAA13810@basement.replay.com>



On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
> Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.

Not much ambiguity here, is there?  No waffling about what a capital
crime is.  This is a clear statement that Florida governor Chiles as well
as various federal officials should be shot.  More deaths, more killings,
more murders.  That is what Tim May stands for.

> Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.

This speaks for itself.  Only an utterly depraved, sick, and vicious
individual could support the killings in Oklahoma City.  This is the man
who many would say is the most respected on the list.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov 15 03:12:41 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:12:41 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711151109.MAA16774@basement.replay.com>



Tim May-San says:
> At 6:54 PM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >It is astonishing that people like you [Paul "Fatmans" Bradley] and
> >William Geiger, who apparently make their living as consultants,
> 
> Their likely clients don't given one whit what comments they may have made
> on mailing lists. 

Tim: Fatmans doesn`t have any clients.  He`s just a wannabe consultant.  
He`s actually an undergrad at some limey univesity, and has too much
time on his hands.

> Hell, their clients don't even care if they're card-carrying members
> of the KKK.

Yeah likely.

> >Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
> >not also share his wealth.  
>
> Sensitive flowers such as yourself need to move out of places like
> Amsterdam and get with the program.

Oooo another subtle suggestion that the Journeyman is the anonymous
poster.

TruthMongrel-San






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov 15 03:31:10 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:31:10 +0800
Subject: The joke's on Joichi (hee, hee)
Message-ID: <199711151122.MAA17951@basement.replay.com>



Joichi Ito wrote:
> I'm sorry, but a racial remark is a racial remark. I never said it wasn't
> funny and I never said this guy didn't deserve it. But what you said
> was racist, no doubt about it, and even if they are funny, I personally
> think that racial jokes are stupid and cheap.

  Heh, heh. Joichi's English is so good that I have been improving
my own grammar and spelling in my posts in order to make fun of him 
through imitating him.

? the Racist Platypus







From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov 15 03:38:07 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:38:07 +0800
Subject: Gieger dies in poverty...not!
Message-ID: <4d6eb9fde26d7cea2f4cb06471340fad@anon.efga.org>



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 6:54 PM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> >make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> >racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
> >to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> >have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
> 
> Their likely clients don't given one whit what comments they may have made
> on mailing lists. Hell, their clients don't even care if they're
> card-carrying members of the KKK.

  Did anyone check out the Heaven's Gate group's computer work? I doubt
that many of their customers would not welcome a chance to have them
back on board. I've worked in plenty of environments where people had
vastly different religious, social, racial and political beliefs, and
most people don't (and shouldn't) give a rat's ass as long as they
pull their weight.
  Of course, if enough people complain and picket, or whatever, then
a 'cult' or a 'racist' or a 'sexist' can become a business liability,
not due to the quality of their work, or their unfitness for the job,
but because of the hateful intolerance of those with the 'right'
beliefs.

  Want to experience hateful intolerance? Read your Bible and believe
that it states the races should remain separate. You will soon be
pointed out as a person who 'hates niggers' and burns crosses on
their lawn, etc, etc, ad infinitum.
  Why? Because those being hatefully intolerant have the 'right'
beliefs as to what the Bible says. 
(Am I a racist if I don't also include an example from the Koran?)

  The fact that different nations, races and idealists are busy 
slaughtering one another during various wars never seems to interfere
with the balance sheets of the movers and shakers in the financial
world. Many of our Presidents since World War II were elected as
a result of the proceeds of their family or friends' ill-gotten
war gains from supporting the war machines that their own children
were fighting against.

  Little BillyG isn't going to go hungry tonight just because he's
snake-bit, onery and mean.







From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 15 04:07:27 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:07:27 +0800
Subject: True Identities of Monty Cantsin and Anonymous Exposed!!!
Message-ID: <346D8EF1.2D9F@dev.null>



The Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend are artificial
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programs for your IBM PC or compatible and also for MACINTOSH. You 
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and guide them through many different activities. Watch and participate
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This is no doubt one of the most realistic, sexually stimulating
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and
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VGA
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have
some of the hottest, sexiest graphics out there.  And with a
Soundblaster or
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This
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From holovacs at idt.net  Sat Nov 15 04:43:44 1997
From: holovacs at idt.net (Jay Holovacs)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:43:44 +0800
Subject: The V-Chip for PCs, the FCC, and broadcasting on the Net
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971115123320.006be824@idt.net>



At 03:43 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>requirements were intended to apply to any "apparatus designed to
>receive television signals" that has a picture screen of 13 inches or
>larger. Accordingly, we believe that the program blocking requirements

OK boys & girls, be sure purchase your new computer without a monitor. After
all, who is to say that your new g-wiz PentiumII MMX or DEC Alpha box isn't
going to be attached to a 12" monitor?  ;-)


Jay






From Georg.Uphoff at uni-konstanz.de  Sat Nov 15 04:50:16 1997
From: Georg.Uphoff at uni-konstanz.de (Georg.Uphoff at uni-konstanz.de)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:50:16 +0800
Subject: PGP 5 SDK
Message-ID: <199711151246.EAA18443@toad.com>




Does anyone know where you can get PGP 5 SDK  except PGP.Inc. ?

It would be lovely if it be free and under circumvention of U.S. export control !

Thanks in advance.

Nappy






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov 15 05:07:18 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:07:18 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Mug Shot
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971115130556.00c619a0@pop.pipeline.com>



Blanc wrote:

>Well, John, this is kind of amusing - why in the world did you put your
>photos together?   You could become confused as being associated, you know.  

It's true, Officer Law, Jim and me did associate, here, and still at it, here, 
with our freely assembled, disputatious co-conspirators and moles.

My photo's with Jim's, officer, because he in a jam and isolated, and he's 
being flaunted by the news story to boost the campaign to intimidate and 
isolate all us. Bet you think that's great fun, officer.

So I confess, officer, that I'm an associate of Jim Bell whether I want to be 
or not. Confirmed by an IRS letter saying so, sent four times. 

Your news story, officer, aims to frighten us to hunker in an isolation of fear 
that it could be any of us being mugged by officers of law, awaiting penalty, 
indefinitely. To warn us to cooperate, behave, pay tithe, recant, beg for 
mercy.

That shit sucks, officer, made me want to join Jim's lineup, nightmare your
babies with my guilty puss.







From proff at iq.org  Sat Nov 15 05:11:34 1997
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:11:34 +0800
Subject: Gieger dies in poverty...not!
In-Reply-To: <4d6eb9fde26d7cea2f4cb06471340fad@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <wx200ib92t.fsf@profane.iq.org>



Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> writes:

>   Why? Because those being hatefully intolerant have the 'right'
> beliefs as to what the Bible says. 
> (Am I a racist if I don't also include an example from the Koran?)

No, just an illiterate.

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your
		      | Ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down
proff at iq.org          | people's throats." -- Stolen quote from Howard Aiken
proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |                           http://underground.org/book






From jito at eccosys.com  Sat Nov 15 05:45:22 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:45:22 +0800
Subject: What Joichi *meant* to say was...
In-Reply-To: <199711150345.EAA06240@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711151341.WAA15213@eccosys.com>



At 04:05 97/11/15 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
> Joichi Ito, <jito at eccosys.com>, writes:

>   I wouldn't be so quick to call all racists stupid...remember, we
> can't be sure that was really Hitler's body they found, and people
> who set out to conquer the world don't usually take kindly to being
> called stupid.

>   Is it National Paint With A Wide Brush Day?
>   Did I miss the announcement? 
>   If all racists are stupid, are all liberals queer? Are we still 
> working that old, tired game?
> 
OK. You're right. As several people have pointed out, not all racists
are stupid and not all stupid people are racists. I also agree that
Tim is non-stupid racist. (One of the worst kind.)

>   Is it my imagination, or is the rapid decline of the quality of posts
> to the list in the last few days a direct result of the ignorant and
> emotional posts by those complaining about the decline in the quality
> of the posts to the list?
>   Can you say, "Self-fulfilling prophecy?"...sure, you can...

I'm wouldn't call the recent posts ignorant, but I agree that the
I don't have much more to say about all of this so I'll shut up
until someone attacks me.

 - Joi

P.S. If the only thing Platypus has to make fun of me for is my
English ability, I'm flattered. ;-P

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From 456S15P1008 at juno.com  Sat Nov 15 22:47:09 1997
From: 456S15P1008 at juno.com (456S15P1008 at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:47:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The World's Easiest Income Opportunity
Message-ID: <0418821772212@juno.com>


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YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF, CALL NOW!!!






From amaret at infomaniak.ch  Sat Nov 15 07:13:55 1997
From: amaret at infomaniak.ch (Alexandre Maret)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:13:55 +0800
Subject: trusting untrusted platforms
Message-ID: <346DBAD1.C8632971@infomaniak.ch>



hello

Here is the problem: how to make sure that an untrusted
computer really run the code you ask him to run.

Practically, we can take the example of the RC5 contest.
If I ask an untrusted computer to search for the key in
a particular sub-keyspace, how can I make sure that this
machine really looked for the key, and that it doesn't
just say "the key is not in this block, give me another
block" just to get higher in the stats...

I've heard about smartcards being helped by ATMs, so
maybe this could be a direction to look into...

Any pointer, info, help, ... very appreciated

  alex

-- 
\\-----------------------------------------------------------\\
// Alexandre Maret -- Linux : The choice of a GNU generation //
\\ amaret at infomaniak.ch -- http://www.infomaniak.ch/~amaret  \\
//-----------------------------------------------------------//






From newfile1 at juno.com  Sat Nov 15 23:15:33 1997
From: newfile1 at juno.com (newfile1 at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:15:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secret Information
Message-ID: <199711160602.JAA25802@mail1.relcom.ru>


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From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Sat Nov 15 07:51:33 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:51:33 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v03102819b092c8404f19@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711151544.JAA00623@manifold.algebra.com>



Tim May wrote:
> At 9:26 PM -0700 11/14/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Tim May wrote:
> >> (Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his upheld,
> >> look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal charges.)
> >
> >I do not think that it is entirely impossible either, but the likely
> >scenario is that the government may first try to harass us and attempt
> >the criminal charges only after some time.
> >
> >In any case, the present structure of cypherpunks list is entirely
> >unacceptable. We have only three working nodes. This is bad since all
> >of these nodes reside in the US and can be taken out easily.
> >
> >Besides government raids, we are all too susceptible on things like
> >internet providers kicking us out, hard drives failing, and so on.
> >Theree nodes is not a good redundancy.
> >
> >I plead foreign cypherpunks to at least establish backup nodes that could
> >be turned on should anything happen to the US-based ones.
> 
> I said this several years ago and I'll say it again: the Usenet is already
> set up for multinational, distributed, essentially uncensorable
> communication.
> 
> I used to try to copy many of my posts to alt.cypherpunks shortly after it
> was created, right after the the Great February End of Toad.com, but in
> recent months I haven'te bothered (mainly because no interesting
> communication was occurring in the alt.cypherpunks arena).
> 
> One need only look to Usenet for a robust, automatically (and
> automagically) distributed system.

You are right, USENET is a good medium.

If cypherpunks list ever gets seriously harassed by authorities, migrating
to a USENET newsgroup makes sense. At the same time, since a lot of people
actually prefer the list as the cypherpunks medium, it would be "nice" to
keep it working the way it is now if it is possible at all. 

The more likely scenario than gummint harassment, at least right now,
is a technical failure of one or two nodes. Adding more redundancy would
keep the list that we like more stable.

	- Igor.






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 15 09:46:57 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:46:57 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711150250.LAA08346@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <eRw8Fe24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Joichi Ito <jito at eccosys.com> writes:

> Bullshit. I won't work with racist Japanese or racist Americans.
> I've seen many business deals fall apart because of a few stupid
> racist remarks.

A company that lets a moron like you make business decision deserves
to go under.

> And not all Japanese are racist pigs.

Just "almost all" are.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Nov 15 09:54:34 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:54:34 +0800
Subject: Aces and Eights
Message-ID: <wUjSt45u3uQCPGVtCtJ/8A==@bureau42.ml.org>



Tim May wrote:

> I call a spade a spade.

  spade...kettle...black








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 15 09:56:05 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:56:05 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <v03102816b092a92800d7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <40V8Fe23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May <tcmay at got.net> writes:
> >It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> >make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> >racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
> >to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> >have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
>
> Their likely clients don't given one whit what comments they may have made
> on mailing lists. Hell, their clients don't even care if they're
> card-carrying members of the KKK.

I've consulted for lots of weird people, from Baha'i to Serbs to Black
Panthers, but I'd be reluctant to knowingly work for any Japs because Japs are
onboxious and dishonest and I don't like them. I used to work with a guy who
did a lot of work for AUM, who I think did a good job, but should have gassed
many more Japs. I'm further convinced that Japs are shit by their postings to
this list. It's such a pity the Jap cowards capitulated before Truman had a
chance to drop a few dozen more nukes on them! We also shoud have used poison
gas on them, just like they used it on Chinese civilians. We also should have
executed all of their POWs, just like they tortured to death most of European
POWs. The Japs got off way too easy for their crimes in WW2. Why wasn't your
silly little Emperor Hirohito (spit) hanged with the other war criminals? Now
the Japs are hoarding up all the available plutonium, obviously preparing to
nuke China and other neighbors (and possibly U.S.) in a likely future war.

By the way, someone I know in real life claims that they've seen the "Silicon
Valley don't hire list" and I really am on it. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 15 09:57:50 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:57:50 +0800
Subject: Gieger dies in poverty...not!
In-Reply-To: <4d6eb9fde26d7cea2f4cb06471340fad@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <VPX8Fe25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



(also bcc'd Philip Stromer in case he cares to comment :-)

>   Did anyone check out the Heaven's Gate group's computer work? I doubt
> that many of their customers would not welcome a chance to have them
> back on board. I've worked in plenty of environments where people had
> vastly different religious, social, racial and political beliefs, and
> most people don't (and shouldn't) give a rat's ass as long as they
> pull their weight.

I generally agree, except that if you're trying to determine in a big hurry if
a potential contractor is worth hiring, and you become aware that s/he exhibits
a trait that you believe is corelated with being a mentally retarded sociopath
(e.g., is a Klintonista or (a guy) wears a pair of earrings to an interview),
then you should proceed to the next candidate.

>   Of course, if enough people complain and picket, or whatever, then
> a 'cult' or a 'racist' or a 'sexist' can become a business liability,
> not due to the quality of their work, or their unfitness for the job,
> but because of the hateful intolerance of those with the 'right'
> beliefs.

But then some of the other folks working there will likely start looking for
other jobs... and it's damn hard to find good people, be it in NYC or in the
Silicon Valley - harder than to find a job. :-)

Ever since Sun Micro fired Philip Stromer for posting "homophobic" jokes to
Usenet, I've done what I could to hurt their sales. I estimate the value of
sales where Sun boxes were considered, I asked that no Suns be bought, and
other boxes (HPs etc) were purchased, to be about $60MM. (Of course, my inputs
were almost never pivotal, but I made my opinion known.) I also boycott
their software.

It's a pity Whit Diffie works for a company that fires people for posting
"homophobic" jokes to Usenet.






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Nov 15 11:22:48 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:22:48 +0800
Subject: Y2K: Canada status?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971114110336.00716324@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971115125453.20901C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>





On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 07:22 PM 11/11/1997 -0500, Jean-Francois Avon wrote:
> >Please reply to my personnal address, I am not on CPunks.
> >
> >Is there anybody who knows about the Y2K situation in Canada?
> 
> Canada is expected to remain relatively intact until 2000 :-)

Don't be ridiculous; everybody knows that Canada uses metric dates, and 
won't have a probelm until the year 10,000.


























;)






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov 15 11:41:10 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:41:10 +0800
Subject: Silicon Valley Don't Hire List
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971115193644.006ab5a4@pop.pipeline.com>



Dimitri,

Do you think you could get a copy of the list for publication? Sounds
like a most controversial blackballer. Especially if it includes the
names of the assholes who started it, keep it up to date and use it
to win by smearing whoever they can't beat openly.


>By the way, someone I know in real life claims that they've seen the "Silicon
>Valley don't hire list" and I really am on it. :-)






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 15 11:42:09 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:42:09 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Mug Shot
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971115023114.00c93684@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115113258.006fee50@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 09:31 PM 11/14/1997 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Jim Bell's mug shot from US News (and mine):
>   http://jya.com/jbjy.jpg
>The terrifying story itself:
>   http://jya.com/next-wave.htm


One of the articles was on the increase in government SWAT teams
	More shoe leather
	Among the biggest beneficiaries is the FBI, which has seen its 
	counterterrorism budget nearly triple to $243 million since 1994. 
	Bureau officials vow to "double the shoe leather" of agents working 
	on chemical and biological terrorism and are outfitting their elite 
	Hostage Rescue Team with $3.3 million worth of gas masks and protection suits. 

Doubling the shoe leather is easy - they're replacing gumshoes with jackboots.....
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From kent at songbird.com  Sat Nov 15 11:47:46 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:47:46 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971115113653.59396@songbird.com>



On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 03:30:11AM -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 12:22:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > > At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > > >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> > > >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> > > >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> > >
> > > Just so.
>  
> > Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.
> 
> Jesus H. Fucking Christ!
> I'm beginning to doubt if anyone participating in this thread knows
> what the fuck racism even is...or what humor is, either, for that
> matter.
>   Racism is a bunch of idiots who think that pissing on someone who
> _may_ be of a differnet ethinic origin, in a pissing contest, is racism.

No.  Using ethnic characteristics as a criteria for attaching
emotional labels is racism.  If you have a gut level dislike of
Japanese (blacks, jews, etc), because they are Japanese (blacks, jews,
etc), that's racism.  

Of course, I grant you that on a mailing list it isn't possible to
know whether the human Tim May is "really" a racist, so it would have
been more accurate to say that the persona "Tim" on this mailing list
is clearly racist.  However, the usage is common.  And also granted 
that the overwhelming thrust of Tim's writings are negative, so his 
racist comments are almost lost in the noise.

[...]

>   Well, when a spic, nigger, wop, kike, raghead, slant or wagon burner
> is broken down on the side of the road on a dark and stormy night, I'm
> the fucking one out there getting cold and wet helping them out, while
> all of the politically correct types lock their doors while driving
> by at 60 mph.

And Tim would be right beside you,  helping out.  Right... 

[...]

>   I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
> I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
> fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference. 

courtesy = censorship

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov 15 12:16:25 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 04:16:25 +0800
Subject: auto signing messages Re: perl from Amad3us
Message-ID: <199711152003.VAA10615@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Antonomasia says:
> excerpt from Amad3us' script:
> >  #!/usr/local/bin/perl
> >  $userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
> >  $pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
> >  $tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";
> >  undef($/);
> >  $post = <STDIN>;
> >  ($headers, at body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n", at body);
> >  open(PIPE,"|$pgp -satf +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID > $tmp");
> 
> Real paranoiacs don't put temporary files in world-writeable directories.
> 
> If a hostile user symlinks your majordomo binary (or something)
> to /tmp/.sig999 you're going to overwrite it with garbage.

Sure.  But have you looked at pgp2 source code? (smirks).

(Hint, temporary files all over the place.)

Amad3us

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Sat Nov 15 12:47:07 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 04:47:07 +0800
Subject: Woodwose.Nym
Message-ID: <LPFKEBNOJAOCAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

mQENAzRgm1kAAAEIAKuDuhI2L3bR4InCJxzaiPLtLHU+tFaD8NeVWAh+XiYme5Cp
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+VP1+pyo
=7OWl
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Sat Nov 15 13:49:00 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 05:49:00 +0800
Subject: Announcing a disposable remailer
Message-ID: <APLDIAHAICBDAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Announcing the Woodwose Remailer!

Instructions for Use:
Point a web browser to:

http://mailexcite.com/

Use the name woodwose and password jaguar7.

The buttons for operating the mailer page are clearly marked--I won't
bore anyone with trivia.

Since the username and password for this account have now been
publicly posted, anyone can use this account to send/receive email. 
Obviously anyone who can log in can read replies to your messages, and
delete them too.  PGP encrypted replies are highly recommended, and
don't count on getting replies too much.

The name under which this account was created is not my real name.

This is my nym-persistence key:

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

mQENAzRgm1kAAAEIAKuDuhI2L3bR4InCJxzaiPLtLHU+tFaD8NeVWAh+XiYme5Cp
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RwfXJT3CmjiCQFpHQIGNDwZmc4YaFaFUGobI47nEJXksdTrE8o1f9ISwrDc2RZIX
+VP1+pyo
=7OWl
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

This one is included for fun & entertainment:

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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AJ/VLm2vHLpMhVqRuwaRgI9KDAxPOinLxbXKCGdAXEZeNrUCgcHE7DqoZv/B9R+/
XAiNXyCMZb0fw0XGlsV8OTRaYr7fQj6zZO5TPBksmgwxPoF8oKqUjO4kE7CCIpA2
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bS4G8rUv9I0pQlThE78A78Y=
=OcKK
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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VFUGztzyBkRN+QT7Ei2GRD31bzprwYXy7QcmjuE6CjBsE+lQ2aZwPQ==
=6lXj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From jnn at dev.null  Sat Nov 15 15:05:12 1997
From: jnn at dev.null (JNN)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 07:05:12 +0800
Subject: News Extra: Return of the Vulis brings Peace to CypherPunks List!!!
In-Reply-To: <40V8Fe23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <346E28D9.2A26@dev.null>



[JAPANESE NUTLY NEWS: Soyabeanfeit,Japan] CHIEF CYPLEPUNKS SPOKESPELSON
Nonookie Masturbatshi told reportwhores gathered at the Nucrear Sulvivol
Sushi Bar & Grill that CypherPunks everywhere were happy over the
return of Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM, to the CypherPunks Distributed List,
apparently once again in his usual fighting form.

> I've consulted for lots of weird people, from Baha'i to Serbs to Black
> Panthers, but I'd be reluctant to knowingly work for any Japs because Japs are
> onboxious and dishonest and I don't like them. I used to work with a guy who
> did a lot of work for AUM, who I think did a good job, but should have gassed
> many more Japs. I'm further convinced that Japs are shit by their postings to
> this list. It's such a pity the Jap cowards capitulated before Truman had a
> chance to drop a few dozen more nukes on them! We also shoud have used poison
> gas on them, just like they used it on Chinese civilians. We also should have
> executed all of their POWs, just like they tortured to death most of European
> POWs. The Japs got off way too easy for their crimes in WW2. Why wasn't your
> silly little Emperor Hirohito (spit) hanged with the other war criminals? Now
> the Japs are hoarding up all the available plutonium, obviously preparing to
> nuke China and other neighbors (and possibly U.S.) in a likely future war.

  "Everyone familiar with group dynamics recognizes that when a list
member leaves, or is absent for a period of time, that it is up to the
other members of the group to help pick up the slack." Joichi Ito told
reporterwhores, in amazingly good English, as the rest of the Japanese
CypherPunks looked at each other and shrugged.
  "It has been difficult, with Dimitri laying low, to keep up the level
of racist ranting that is expected by list subscribers, but fortunately,
other list members have stepped into the void and performed remarkably
well in his absence. Including myself..." Joichi added, stretching his
eyelids out to form wide, round circles, as the other CypherPunks hooted
loudly and banged Saki bottles on the floor, shouting "Foleign Devirs!"

  As Jun Yoshitake farted 'Misty' for the gathered band of protruding
nails, the only black member of the cypherpunks-e mailing list, Nobuki
Nakatuji, from Athens, Georgia, opened the gift he had brought as a
peace offering from their American counterparts.
  There were a lot of angeled and angered eyebrows raised when the
gift turned out to be a microwave oven from a company in New Mexico,
but the frowns quickly turned to smiles when Joichi Ito presented
Nobuki with a gift to take back to the American CypherPunks--a small
model of the U.S.S. Arizona, carved out of volcanic rock and resting
at the bottom of a small fish tank.
  "OUBAKAYAROU!!" shouted Jun Yoshitake, leaping up and handing an
invoice for $50.00 from Mitsubishi to Tim C. May, for the 'gift'.

  Once again, there were many hoots and the banging of Saki bottles
by the gathered Japanese crypto-munitions experts.
  After the ceremonial gifts had been exchanged, the group shared
dinner and many more drinks, expressing regret that their good
fortune in Dimitri's return bringing a wider range of racism back
to the list would be at the expense of others, such as the murdering
Armenian bastard, Ray Arachelian.
  There was also a discussion about the problems surrounding the
current implementation of the Misty algorithm. Some felt that Peter
Trei had purposely given them the wrong value for 5 + 7, but others
pointed out that he may have merely been too hasty in trusting the
answer sent by TruthMonger in reply to Trei's question to the list.

  TluthMongler, keeping his back to the wall in case the others
tried to kill and eat him, announced that Dimitri had been added to
the Nuclear Alley "don't hire list."
  Everyone at the meeting soon began nodding out from overdoing the
festivities, mumbling things like, "Miclowave Tokoyo," or stumbling
off to the toilet saying, "I go make smarr Timmy Mayonnaises..chop,
chop--hee, hee."

----------------------------------------------------------------------
  This message here that you read cleated undel the auspices of the 
  Japanese Chaptel of the Erectlonic Folgely Foundation. If you lead,
  you send fify dorrals, OK? (Onry lound-eyes have to pay...and also
  Chinamen...chop, chop.) You not pay, you go nuke youlserf, OK?
----------------------------------------------------------------------






From rennie at one.net.au  Sat Nov 15 15:34:17 1997
From: rennie at one.net.au (Jason)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 07:34:17 +0800
Subject: Mail interception
Message-ID: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>



Hi all,

I was trying to convince some friends of mine of the need for crypto in
email. They don't however bel;ive it is possible to intercept email on
the wauy through.

So, does anybody know how to or where i can get information on
intercepting email from ?

Any help that can be provided would be greeatly appreciated.

regards jason






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov 15 15:57:24 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 07:57:24 +0800
Subject: Clinton freezes imported assault weapons [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711152357.RAA09522@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

>                   CLINTON FREEZES IMPORTS OF ASSAULT WEAPONS
>                                        
>      graphic November 15, 1997
>      Web posted at: 1:19 p.m. EST (1819 GMT)
>      
>      LAS VEGAS (CNN) -- President Clinton has ordered a four-month freeze
>      on the import of assault weapons while the administration and
>      Treasury Department officials develop a plan to permanently ban the
>      weapons.
>      
>      Clinton announced his executive order, issued Friday, in his weekly
>      radio address.
>      
>      "I'm not going to let people overseas turn our streets into battle
>      zones, where gangs are armed like they were guerrilla warriors
>      halfway around the world, if I could stop it," he told supporters at
>      a Democratic fund-raising dinner in Las Vegas on Friday.
>      
>      The freeze will keep an estimated 1.6 million weapons from coming
>      into the United States while Treasury officials review a ban passed
>      in 1994 as part of a larger crime bill. Clinton says overseas
>      manufacturers are taking advantage of a loophole in the law by
>      making cosmetic changes that enable the weapons to be imported for
>      "sporting" purposes.
>      
>      Clinton seems to be angered by a recent surge in the number of
>      permit applications for the modified weapons.
>      
>      Officials say firearms importers have obtained permits for the
>      shipment of nearly 600,000 altered guns, and that an additional 1
>      million permit applications are pending. Approximately 20,000 of the
>      weapons have already entered the country, officials said.
>      
>      No more will be imported until the Treasury Department's review is
>      completed. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms stopped
>      taking applications last month, the Washington Post reported on
>      Friday.
>      
>      The National Rifle Association says Clinton's order "shows more
>      hypocrisy and deception than ever before."
>      
>      "The guns Clinton wishes to ban from importation conform in every
>      way to the law Clinton wrote, signed, pledged would rid the streets
>      of violence in 1994, and trumpets to the press whenever his scandals
>      get out of hand," said NRA spokeswoman Tanya Metaksa.
>      
>      Correspondent John King, The Associated Press and Reuters
>      contributed to this report.






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 15 16:10:11 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:10:11 +0800
Subject: Discrimination and Prejudice are Not Necessarily Bad Things
Message-ID: <v0310281eb093cfb6329b@[207.167.93.63]>




The recent list discsussion reminds me that not all of you have yet thrown
off your knee-jerk reaction to "prejudice" and "discrimination."

I'm not surprised to hear high school students, when asked what the world's
Number One problem is, cite "prejudice." Or "bigotry." Or "racism." Their
teachers have drilled this idea into their heads for most of their school
years, and the media does its part with public service announcements,
heart-warming after school specials about the wonderfulness of
multiculturalism, and so on.

But I am surprised that more members of this list have not managed to throw
off the baggage of "discrimination is bad" simplemindedness.

To be sure, certain forms of racism, bigotry, and discrimination are both
irrational and counterproductive. The black man who thinks of all whites as
devils is no different from the white man who thinks of all blacks as
illiterate criminals.

But let's not forget what "discrimination" means. It means choosing some
actions or beliefs over others. It used to be a compliment  to say someone
had "discriminating tastes."

(Of course, this sense is still used, and I understand that the sense in
which people say "discrimination is bad" is the sense related to
unreasonable or irrational beliefs about certain races. But the good
meanings of discrimination are tending to get lost in the political
correctness baggage surrounding the term.)

I happen to believe many, even most, aspects of "black culture" in America
today are highly destructive to those who practice this culture. Extremely
high rates of illegitimacy (exceeding 70% overall, and exceeding 80% in
inner cities, compared to less than 25% for whites overall, and less than
20% for suburban whites). An extreme aversion to professional careers (on
average, obviously, not in any particular cases). And so on.

My "discrimination" is to avoid these kinds of people, to not hire them,
and to urge their culture to change, and fast. (Many black leaders, even
Jesse Jackson, are urging the same thing. Even Louis Farrakhan is saying
black culture in America is corrupt.)

Does this mean I have a morbid fear of black people? Nope. Does it mean I
would never hire a black? Nope. (I did in fact help hire a black scientist
when I was at Intel.)

And I also don't think certain words are off limits to white people. If
blacks use the term "nigger" (or "nigga") and refer to black women as
"hoes" (whores, in Ebonics), why are these terms then bowdlerized in
mainstream texts as "the "N" word" (etc.)?

Likewise, if homosexuals call themselves "queers" and "dykes," as in "Queer
Nation," "Dykes on Bikes," and so on, how can they object when others use
these words? (I know the post-Marxist, deconstructionist claptrap about
their reclaiming of patriarchal words, blah blah. It still remains a case
of "If we use it, it's OK, but if you use it, it's racist and homophobic.")

I really don't care what people do with their bodies, so long as they don't
interfere with me in any way. Or force me to subsidize them, or hire quotas
of them, or otherwise require me to change what I would do of my own free
will. If a store doesn't want to serve homosexuals, or doesn't want to hire
men as servers (the Hooters case), this is their basic property right. (And
this was recognized in the freedom of association interpretation of the
Constitution, even after the 14th Amendment (and its "equal protection"
language). It only became a "crime" for a restaurant to disallow certain
groups, or for a church to "discriminate against" Satanists, or for a
health food store to "discriminate against" 300-pound women seeking
employment in the store, etc., after the 1964 Civil Rights Act. More
specifically, the "Title 7" nonsense.

>From a a liberty, freedom, and property rights viewpoint, anyone is free to
do with their property as they wish, to set admissions policies, to invite
those they wish to enter (and to exclude others), and so on. The 14th
Amendment, more than a century ago, established certain voting and other
rights AS RELATED TO GOVERNMENT AND TO THE STATES! Basically, ensuring
freedom from slavery, repeal of Jim Crow laws, and other STATE INTRUSIONS
into fundamental constitutional rights. Again, rights as they related to
the government.

The 14th did not say that government had some right to tell a shopkeeper
that he had to serve all creeds, colors, and genders. It did not "ban
discrimination."

And the 1964 Civil Rights Act corrected a few wrongs that had remained
after  the 14th, mostly related to voting rights and such in the South.
Still, many thoughtful persons believed it just wasn't needed, that the
14th was already sufficicent, were it to be enforced, to halt certain
government-sanctioned cases of "discrimination."

(What might be called "Discrimination," with a capital D, implying state
sanction, and not "discrimination," with a small D.)

But over the decades following the Civil Rights Act, the language of Title
7 was used to "ban discrimination" (little D), so that a private store or
restaurant could not choose whom it wished to serve, for example. More
importantly, a business could not choose whom it wished to hire.

Hence the lawsuits charging "discrimination." Hence the EEOC and formal
quotas. Hence the conflicting laws about employers being _barred_ from
inquiring about race or ethnicity while at the same time being _required_
to meet certain EEOC guidelines and quotas.

(As I have said here before, when I was out college recruiting for Intel in
the late 70s, I was forbidden from noting an applicant's race or ethnicity
on the forms I filled out, but I was _required_ to put a small letter on
the top of the form, one of the letters in "C O I N S"--Caucasion Oriental
Indian Negro Spanish. These letters were so that Intel could obey the law,
Title 7 style, and report that it had indeed interviewed (and later hired)
the appropriate quotas of Negro and Spanish engineers! One part of the law
said it was illegal to hire based on race, another part of the law said it
was mandatory. True Orwellian doublethink.)

And so now we have the situation where a group of men can sue Hooters
demanding to be made into jiggly servers. Never mind that Hooters doesn't
want them. Never mind that such suits ought to be (and woudl have been,
prior to the Civil Rights Act) dismissed on a matter of law: it isn't a
crime for business owners to hire whom they wish. Period.

And the language of Title 7  and its descendants has been used to harass
businesses. As when the City of Los Angeles decided it did not want a strip
club open. It inspected the strip club and found that the "shower dance"
stage was not "wheelchair accessible." (!!!) Never mind that the strip
joint was not about to hire any cripples as strippers.

(Oh, and even though this is the most basic common sense point one can
make, that strip joint had better not _say_ it doesn't want cripples, else
it'd be hit with a multmillion dollar damage suit the next day.)

So, this is what we've come to. The mantra of "discrimination is illegal"
has now impinged on basic rights of free association and the basic liberty
to say what one wishes. Say certain things today and face a lawsuit. Or a
probe by the EEOC and its related agencies.

Blacks can call each other niggas and hoes, but let a honkey use these
words and he may be in real trouble. Homosexuals can call themselves fags,
queers, queens, and dykes, but the rest of us had better use the PC term du
jour. If Joe Whitey makes an "insensitive" or "discriminatory" remark, look
out. He may even lose his teaching job, or his engineering job at Sun, or
be denounced as a racist by Joichi Ito, Protector of Nipponese
Unmongrelized Sensibilities.

Some discrimination is good. In fact, a lot of it is. Think of it as
evolution in action.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 15 16:15:15 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:15:15 +0800
Subject: Clinton freezes imported assault weapons [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711152357.RAA09522@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0310281fb093db21e155@[207.167.93.63]>



At 4:57 PM -0700 11/15/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>>                   CLINTON FREEZES IMPORTS OF ASSAULT WEAPONS
>>
>>      graphic November 15, 1997
>>      Web posted at: 1:19 p.m. EST (1819 GMT)
>>
>>      LAS VEGAS (CNN) -- President Clinton has ordered a four-month freeze
>>      on the import of assault weapons while the administration and
>>      Treasury Department officials develop a plan to permanently ban the
>>      weapons.

It's what I've been saying here! The ban is coming.

>>      The freeze will keep an estimated 1.6 million weapons from coming
>>      into the United States while Treasury officials review a ban passed
>>      in 1994 as part of a larger crime bill. Clinton says overseas
>>      manufacturers are taking advantage of a loophole in the law by
>>      making cosmetic changes that enable the weapons to be imported for
>>      "sporting" purposes.

Translation: We passed some laws, importers found ways to fully comply with
the laws (at their expense). But now we're going to ignore the law, and
ignore their compliance, and take steps to force these importers out of
business.

Amerika is no longer a nation of laws. Even the draconian laws are ignored
for political grandstanding.

>>      The National Rifle Association says Clinton's order "shows more
>>      hypocrisy and deception than ever before."
>>
>>      "The guns Clinton wishes to ban from importation conform in every
>>      way to the law Clinton wrote, signed, pledged would rid the streets
>>      of violence in 1994, and trumpets to the press whenever his scandals
>>      get out of hand," said NRA spokeswoman Tanya Metaksa.

I quit the NRA a few years ago, feeling it was too wimpy and namby pamby
about basic rights.

They tried to bargain with the Administration, they tried to reach a
"compromise." This is what it got them.

There are obvious lessons for the crypto industry here. And for the efforts
by CDT, EPIC, and others to negotiate with politicians.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov 15 16:34:26 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:34:26 +0800
Subject: auto signing messages Re: perl from Amad3us
Message-ID: <199711160027.BAA16314@basement.replay.com>



Amad3us Anonymous (if that is his/her *real* name wrote:
> Antonomasia says:
> > Real paranoiacs don't put temporary files in world-writeable directories.

> > If a hostile user symlinks your majordomo binary (or something)
> > to /tmp/.sig999 you're going to overwrite it with garbage.
 
> Sure.  But have you looked at pgp2 source code? (smirks).
> 
> (Hint, temporary files all over the place.)

  For you old farts who have not been out in the real world for a
while, you should make note of the fact that the price of memory
has dropped, and it is now feasible to implement RAM disks to
store temporary files.
  You can also direct a program to use a RAM trash-disk for its
temporary files, wiping it immediately after use without having
to worry about fucking up your other temporary files.







From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 15 16:34:49 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:34:49 +0800
Subject: Kent Cripin's cynical liberalism
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <346E3C9E.7756@dev.null>



Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 03:30:11AM -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
> > I'm beginning to doubt if anyone participating in this thread knows
> > what the fuck racism even is...or what humor is, either, for that
> > matter.
> >   Racism is a bunch of idiots who think that pissing on someone who
> > _may_ be of a differnet ethinic origin, in a pissing contest, is racism.
 
> No.  Using ethnic characteristics as a criteria for attaching
> emotional labels is racism.  

  Double-No! It is a damn fine way of pissing in someone's boot when
that is your purpose, and it is really nobody's business but the
pisser and the pissee (not even those who wear the same brand of
boots).
  Why didn't Eddie Murphy say, "I'm your worst nightmare...a Black-Afro
American with a gun!"? Could it be that the character he was playing
was the type of person who recognized the difference between a tea
party and a bar fight?
  (Kent, are you the one sending anonyous emails to whitehouse.gov
   saying, "Throw rocks at DC!"?)

> Of course, I grant you that on a mailing list it isn't possible to
> know whether the human Tim May is "really" a racist, so it would have
> been more accurate to say that the persona "Tim" on this mailing list
> is clearly racist.  However, the usage is common.  And also granted
> that the overwhelming thrust of Tim's writings are negative, so his
> racist comments are almost lost in the noise.

  Thanks for clearing that up. It would be a shame to 'inaccurately'
flame someone on this list. It takes longer to fill their boots up
if you are not quite on the mark.

> [...]
> 
> >   Well, when a spic, nigger, wop, kike, raghead, slant or wagon burner
> > is broken down on the side of the road on a dark and stormy night, I'm
> > the fucking one out there getting cold and wet helping them out, while
> > all of the politically correct types lock their doors while driving
> > by at 60 mph.
> 
> And Tim would be right beside you, helping out.  Right...

  Sure, if they were headed 'out of town' instead of 'toward' town...

  Really, Kent, you surely can't have lived such a cloistered life that
you judge everything in life by the words and images cast upon the 
Silver Screen of alleged reality.
  In my younger days I used to get picked up by dirt-farmers while
hitchiking, and be subjected to a predictable lecture about long
hair, hippies all ought to get a job, kids today...blah, blah.
Most of the time, before dropping me off, the farmer would dig
a few bucks out of his pocket and offer it to me, saying, "Have
you eaten today? Here, take this."

> [...]
> >   I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
> > I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
> > fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference.
 
> courtesy = censorship

Courtesy = free choice of words = honest self-censorship
Politcially Correct Politeness = Mandatory/voluntary self-censorship

NEWS FLASH!!!
  Once you grow up and move away from home, then many things that were
formerly mandatory (or else!) become voluntary. People who were easy
to toilet train often go through life thinking that they are 'good'
people just because they still haven't figured out that they have
a 'choice' of how to speak, act, behave.  
  I'll take a good old redneck who has learned not to 'hate niggers'
as much as he used to, over an anal retentive batik artist who 
still hasn't figured out that he clenches his teeth when he speaks
of the 'Black-Afro American' who robbed and pistol-whipped him.

  When Adam Back agrees with me, he's British. When he disagrees with
me, he's a fucking Limey. (And it doesn't matter a shit whether he
is white, black, yellow or green.)

  The best way to eliminate racism is to hire a racist, go to dinner
with a racist, talk with a racist--not to sit drinking cafe latte 
with your friends while denouncing racism.
  I find it hard to believe that the slants and the round-eyes on
this list think that apparent differences in the backgrounds and
beliefs of list members deserves more discussion than the loss of
our common freedoms, just because some Anonymous shit-disturber
(who may also be Nonookie Masturbatshi, for all we know) wants
to impress Bob Hettinga in the hopes of being able to put his
dick in A Body Orfice To Be Named Later at some point in the
future (or already has, at some point in the past).

  In the course of pursuing things which are important in our life
(such as producing the Nutly News), we will be much more productive
if we refrain from joining in mouth-jerk reactions to the worms
that get dangled in front of us by the anonymous entities posting
from the boat above us.

  And the way this relates to crypto is...NONE OF YOUR FUCKING
BUSINESS! (<--- Topically Incorrect)

TruthMonger






From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Sat Nov 15 16:56:25 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Information Server)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:56:25 +0800
Subject: Mail interception
In-Reply-To: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <346E4255.702B@sk.sympatico.ca>



For information on the interception of plaintext email,
send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov 15 17:17:52 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:17:52 +0800
Subject: Clinton on Forces of Destruction and Illicit Arms
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971116011608.00b6e090@pop.pipeline.com>



Excerpt from the President's remarks to the Democratic National
Committee in Sacramento this afternoon:

...
             But the most likely problems -- there are a couple 
little babies in this audience, or there were today, and some 
children -- the most likely problems these children will face 
when they come of age will be problems that cross national 
borders -- terrorism, organized crime and drug running, the 
spread of weapons of mass destruction, chemical and biological 
weapons and maybe small-scale nuclear weapons.
             
             This much nuclear cake put in a bomb would do ten 
times as much damage as the Oklahoma City bomb did.  
             
             The spread of environmental problems or diseases 
across national lines -- we are going to have to, in other words, 
find ways to cooperate, to keep the organized forces of 
destruction that are taking advantage of the Internet, the 
technological revolution, the freedom of travel and the freedom 
of movement, access to computers and moving money around and all 
that -- there will always be organized forces of destruction.  
             
             That is fundamentally what is at stake in the stand 
off we're having in Iraq today.  I don't want you to look at this 
backward through the prism of the Gulf War and think it's a 
replay.  I want you to look at it forward and think about it in 
terms of the innocent Japanese people that died in the subway 
when the saran gas was released; and how important it is for 
every responsible government in the world to do everything that 
can possibly be done not to let big stores of chemical or 
biological weapons fall into the wrong hands, not to let 
irresponsible people develop the capacity to put them in warheads 
on missiles or put them in briefcases that could be exploded in 
small rooms.  
             
             And I say this not to frighten you.  The world will 
always have challenges.  I think the chances are quite good that 
we can organize ourselves for this challenge and deal with it 
very effectively.  I personally believe that the next 50 years 
will be far more peaceful and less dangerous for our children and 
our grandchildren than the last 50 years were.  I also believe 
they will be the most prosperous and interesting time in all of 
human history -- but only if we do the right things.

...

From: http://library.whitehouse.gov/ThisWeek-plain.cgi

----------

For more on the US ban of assault weapons and the US and Mexico's 
convention to fight illicit arms trafficking, signed yesterday:

   http://jya.com/piat111597.htm







From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 15 17:35:45 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:35:45 +0800
Subject: Clinton on Forces of Destruction and Illicit Arms
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971116011608.00b6e090@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102821b093ee425fc3@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:16 PM -0700 11/15/97, John Young wrote:
>Excerpt from the President's remarks to the Democratic National
>Committee in Sacramento this afternoon:
>
>...
>             But the most likely problems -- there are a couple
>little babies in this audience, or there were today, and some
>children -- the most likely problems these children will face

"Save the children."

"If rolling over the Second Amendment saves the life of just one child...if
rolling over the First saves the life of just one child..."


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Nov 15 18:25:59 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:25:59 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <v0310281db092e0eb1aa8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971116113823.133A-100000@shirley>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 9:40 PM -0700 11/14/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> >The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
> >because of this free scular education is a basic right that
> >should be prodided by the state.
> 
> The"system" asssumes no such thing,

So an informed electorate is not neccery for democarsy to work?  Creating
such an electorate has been one of the fundermentle elerments in most
education policies of westion democries.


- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNG5FaaQK0ynCmdStAQF1fwQApRRJwkn6QST8KN2mXxcsdyO9iyJVsIiT
9huQd+qUq+ek8HzGsDX0H7rX61AbSy0YtPq6uUsR3e5uxvsg2Tf861H+rXeXv9m9
5PTIgCvYhF1Z8osW2WJAQdLOpV2xvugduVZLczvRZbFnssJoxf8sQYPbu/V6okmy
UQnScLq7A8s=
=f15d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 15 19:03:29 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:03:29 +0800
Subject: Clinton on Forces of Destruction and Illicit Arms
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971116011608.00b6e090@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <346E5F94.4CA2@dev.null>



John Young wrote:
> Excerpt from the President's remarks to the Democratic National
> Committee in Sacramento this afternoon:
> ...
>              But the most likely problems -- there are a couple
> little babies in this audience, or there were today, and some
> children -- the most likely problems these children will face
> when they come of age will be problems that cross national
> borders -- terrorism, organized crime and drug running, the
> spread of weapons of mass destruction, chemical and biological
> weapons and maybe small-scale nuclear weapons.

  If a New World Order saves the life of just one child...

>              The spread of environmental problems or diseases
> across national lines -- we are going to have to, in other words,
> find ways to cooperate, to keep the organized forces of
> destruction that are taking advantage of the Internet, the
> technological revolution, the freedom of travel and the freedom
> of movement, access to computers and moving money around and all
> that -- there will always be organized forces of destruction.

  Anyone that's ever looked at a voting ballot can tell you he
speaks the truth about the forces of organized destruction being
with us forever.

  I've always said that Freedom of Movement was one of the main
reasons for the rapid decline of society. It's all that moving
around that people do between their work desks and their beds
at home that is the problem. Increased use of prison labor has
certainly proven that a War on Movement is a viable option.

  If we allow people to move their money around wherever they
want, as if it is really theirs, then the next thing you know,
they might start doing the things they want with the money
they earn, instead of what they are required to do with it.
  If we allow people to access computers, the organized forces
of destruction will use them to get an education, earn a living,
entertain themselves, and conspire to move around.

>              That is fundamentally what is at stake in the stand
> off we're having in Iraq today. 

(Summary, so far:)
	CHILDREN AND BABIES 
cross national borders	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
	TERRORISM / ORGANIZED CRIME / DRUG RUNNING 
the spread of		{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
	WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION / CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS
 	SMALL-SCALE NUCLEAR WEAPONS
across national lines	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
	ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEMS OR DISEASES
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF 
	the Internet
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF 
	the technological REVOLUTION
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF 
	freedom of travel	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF 
	freedom of movement	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF 
	access to computers	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF
	moving money around	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF
	and all that	{EVERYTHING IMAGINABLE!!!}
		ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION!!! 
			IRAQ!!!

>              And I say this not to frighten you. 

  Stand-up comedy at its finest.

> I think the chances are quite good that
> we can organize ourselves for this challenge and deal with it
> very effectively.  

  "We" being the elite "across national borders" and "across
national lines"--the elite of the WORLD.
  "Organize ourselves" meaning: creating a NEW ORDER of organized
authority, laws and government.
  
> I personally believe that the next 50 years
> will be far more peaceful and less dangerous for our children and
> our grandchildren than the last 50 years were.

  I *knew* he was going to mention children a couple more times
after the scare tactics. Am I goddamn *psychic*, or what?

>  I also believe
> they will be the most prosperous and interesting time in all of
> human history -- but only if we do the right things.

  Translation~~"Only" those who "do the right things" are going to
find the NEW WORLD ORDER future "prosperous" and "interesting."

	BILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!
  If any of you can read this speech by El Presidante and think of
those who spoke out against the National Socialists, the brownshirts,
the Nazis--at the same time--and not get a shiver down your spine...
  I will give you a check for $1,000,000,000 (postdated Jan 1, 2000).

OrganizedTruthMonster






From mitm at dev.null  Sat Nov 15 19:16:40 1997
From: mitm at dev.null (Man In The Middle)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:16:40 +0800
Subject: RTFM-709 / Email Inteception
In-Reply-To: <19971116012606195.AAA200@polo>
Message-ID: <346E6303.4A0A@dev.null>



Is there anything else you would like to know about email interception?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
joseph gonzales wrote:
> 
> ----------
> > From: Information Server <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>
> > To: Jason <rennie at one.net.au>
> > Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
> > Subject: Re: Mail interception
> > Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 6:46 PM
> >
> > For information on the interception of plaintext email,
> > send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
> > and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".







From mitm at dev.null  Sat Nov 15 19:16:48 1997
From: mitm at dev.null (Man In The Middle)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:16:48 +0800
Subject: RTFM-709 / Email Interception
In-Reply-To: <199711160134.UAA21805@borg.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <346E63A9.2258@dev.null>



Is there anything else you would like to know about email interception?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom McCaskill wrote:






From rfarmer at HiWAAY.net  Sat Nov 15 19:22:37 1997
From: rfarmer at HiWAAY.net (Randall Farmer)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:22:37 +0800
Subject: "No one complains" / Stylometry
In-Reply-To: <199711150104.TAA01930@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971114204711.24140A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>



> No one complains.  Apparently everyone with an ounce of moral sense has left
> the list long ago. 

Silence doesn't necessarily denote agreement, especially from someone (for
example, me :) who avoids political posts altogether... 

============================================================================

That stylometry thing (figuring out who wrote a message from its content) 
seems to be a big problem for people using remailers. Initially, I thought you
could avoid it by using some software to tinker with your words. Although that
can confuse some attacks, there are still author-dependent things you can't
hide so easily. For example, someone with a sufficiently big sample of your
writing (i.e., all a nym's public traffic) could measure, say, the number words
per sentence, or how likely you are to use certain punctuation/function words,
and use that to match it to something you wrote under your own name. And the
measurement part isn't rocket science, either -- I slapped together a simple
stylometer from basic UNIX tools (sed, sort, uniq, grep) and a calculator, and
it appears to actually _work_.

(In addition to being able to say two messages are by the same person, it looks
like you can also tell a little bit about the author, but as for how much and
what...?) 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer at hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer







From ljf at fbi.gov  Sat Nov 15 19:30:22 1997
From: ljf at fbi.gov (Louis J. Freeh)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:30:22 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: RTFM-79 / Email Interception]RTFM-79 / Email Interception
In-Reply-To: <yam7259.1396.270667912@Mail.amitar.com.au>
Message-ID: <346E663F.29E@fbi.gov>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 160
URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/19971116/9920b187/attachment.mht>

From ljf at fbi.gov  Sat Nov 15 19:39:35 1997
From: ljf at fbi.gov (Louis J. Freeh)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:39:35 +0800
Subject: RTFM-709 / Email Interception
In-Reply-To: <199711160305.VAA11358@clockking.lse.fullfeed.com>
Message-ID: <346E6786.FA0@fbi.gov>



Mr. Belton,
  Please stop by your local FBI headquarters first thing in the 
morning. We just need to ask you a few questions.
 (Bring your passport.)

Sincerely,
  Louis J. Freeh

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mike belton wrote:






From rennie at one.net.au  Sat Nov 15 20:38:41 1997
From: rennie at one.net.au (Jason)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:38:41 +0800
Subject: Mail interception
In-Reply-To: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <346E7541.5A13@one.net.au>



David E. Smith wrote:
> Jason wrote:
> > So, does anybody know how to or where i can get information on
> > intercepting email from ?
> >
> > Any help that can be provided would be greeatly appreciated.

> Jason,
> Some asshole spoofed the list with the wrong reply address for the
> Information Server at Sympatico. 
> The correct address is: Information Server <ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca>
> Your subject header should be: "Help"
> The body of the message should contain: "email security"
>
> I hope this helps. 

Dave,
  It worked, thanks. It is a shame that a few jerkoffs have to spoil
the list for everyone else.

regards jason






From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Nov 15 20:52:05 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:52:05 +0800
Subject: Email Interception Information
In-Reply-To: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <346E77AA.70F7@bureau42.ml.org>



Ann Oy wrote:
>

Ann,
  The correct address for the Information Server at Sympatico is:
Information Server <ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca>
  Use a subject header of "Help" and put "email security" in the
message body.

Dave






From rennie at one.net.au  Sat Nov 15 21:00:53 1997
From: rennie at one.net.au (Jason)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:00:53 +0800
Subject: Mail interception
In-Reply-To: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <346E7AFC.62CDD4FE@one.net.au>



>
>
> Dave,
>   It worked, thanks. It is a shame that a few jerkoffs have to spoil
> the list for everyone else.
>
> regards jason

  thank you really dave.

some jerk off continues to spoof the list.

THanks for the info dave

really regards jason






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 15 21:12:08 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:12:08 +0800
Subject: Email Interception Information
In-Reply-To: <346E77AA.70F7@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <mVw9Fe39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



> Information Server <ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca>

This sounds like a pedophile address.  The RCMP should check it out for
kiddie porn and bomb- and poison gas making instructions.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 15 21:51:56 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:51:56 +0800
Subject: RTFM-709
In-Reply-To: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <346E86EC.1DF0@dev.null>

Jason wrote:
> Information Server wrote:
> > For information on the interception of plaintext email,
> > send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
> > and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".

Jason,
  I have attached a file which includes some of the responses
sent to "Information Server <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>", as well
as a post to the list, apparently from David E. Smith, the
remailer operator at Bureau42, giving the 'correct' address
of the non-existent 'Information Server' supposedly at
Sympatico...and, as a special bonus, a post to the list,
purportedly from you, thanking 'Dave' for the information.

  You are a victim of your own misplaced faith in the great god 
known as WYSIWYG. (What you see, is what you get. -- NOT!)
  If I _am_ <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>, then you have the satisfaction
of knowing that if I suffer a serious regression into my former
violent, psychotic delusional state, that the proper authorities
will likely be able to track me down and prosecute me for you
bizarre, sadistic murder.
  If I am _not_ <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>, well...

  Regardless, whether you are seeking information on email interception
or home-study on how to committ bizarre sex acts with farm animals,
your interest in this information is known to both whomever you send
your request to, as well as everyone who you reply to in regard to
offered information, as well as everyone that the recipients share
your email with _and_ anyone who manages to access the email accounts
or systems of _all_ of the forementioned.
  Since both your real and forged corresponedence has already gone
to private email accounts, public mailing lists, and perhaps to
USENET and beyond, I think you can see the advisability of using
encryption to limit access to the plaintext of your message to
only those you specifically encrypt the message to.

  You may not care if the whole world knows that you want information
on email interception, or even about your fondness for farm animals,
but there are undoubtedly things which you would rather keep between
yourself and the intended recipient.
  If a real 'Information Server' had a verifiable Public Key for
you to encrypt your reply to, then it would not likely matter if you
sent the message to a spoof address, as unknown recipients could
not likely read it. The same applies to your friends, relatives and
bussiness acquaintances. If you use encryption for those things
which are important for you to keep private, then you do not have
to worry as much if they share an email account, computer or system
with friends, family, coworkers or strangers.

  The 'spoof' I did was neither technically complicated nor even
particularly clever. On the other hand, there are a plethora of
people in existence who are both clever _and_ skilled at poking
their noses in wherever they want and doing whatever they like
with the information.

Sincerely,
Louis J. Freeh  (aka TruthMonger)
Director  (aka Lunatic)
Federal Bureau of Investigation  (aka Electronic Forgery Foundation)
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"


>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:35 1997
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>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:30 1997
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----------
> From: Information Server <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>
> To: Jason <rennie at one.net.au>
> Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: Re: Mail interception
> Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 6:46 PM
> 
> For information on the interception of plaintext email,
> send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
> and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".

>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:36 1997
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From: Shane Cracknell <shane at Amitar.com.au>
Reply-To: shane at Amitar.com.au
To: Information Server <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>
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>From - Sat Nov 15 21:19:53 1997
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From: mike belton <meb at clockking.lse.fullfeed.com>
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>From - Sat Nov 15 22:24:16 1997
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To: toto at sk.sympatico.ca
From: Ann Oy <annoy at innocent.com>
Subject: RTFM-709
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>From - Sat Nov 15 22:35:14 1997
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Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:23:29 -0600
From: Jason <rennie at one.net.au>
Reply-To: cypherpunks at toad.com
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David E. Smith wrote:
> Jason wrote:
> > So, does anybody know how to or where i can get information on
> > intercepting email from ?
> >
> > Any help that can be provided would be greeatly appreciated.

> Jason,
> Some asshole spoofed the list with the wrong reply address for the
> Information Server at Sympatico. 
> The correct address is: Information Server <ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca>
> Your subject header should be: "Help"
> The body of the message should contain: "email security"
>
> I hope this helps. 

Dave,
  It worked, thanks. It is a shame that a few jerkoffs have to spoil
the list for everyone else.

regards jason

>From - Sat Nov 15 22:39:32 1997
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Message-ID: <346E77AA.70F7 at bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:33:46 -0600
From: "David E. Smith" <dave at bureau42.ml.org>
Reply-To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Organization: Bureau42 Enterprises - An EFF Subsiduary
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To: Ann Oy <annoy at innocent.com>
CC: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Email Interception Information
References: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2 at one.net.au> <4.0.32.19971115201303.00e102f0 at postoffice.pacbell.net>
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Ann Oy wrote:
>

Ann,
  The correct address for the Information Server at Sympatico is:
Information Server <ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca>
  Use a subject header of "Help" and put "email security" in the
message body.

Dave





From mixmaster at as-node.jena.thur.de  Sat Nov 15 21:54:21 1997
From: mixmaster at as-node.jena.thur.de (Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:54:21 +0800
Subject: degree of anonymity
Message-ID: <m0xWwle-0005S3C@as-node.jena.thur.de>



One blithered:

>Now maybe everyone will see what I mean when I say that those on this
>list now only stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and murder,
>racism, homophobia.

Speak for yourself, mate!

The crypto content is still worthwhile, what there is of it.






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Sat Nov 15 22:39:36 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:39:36 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <40V8Fe23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199711160624.AAA06173@manifold.algebra.com>



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> By the way, someone I know in real life claims that they've seen the "Silicon
> Valley don't hire list" and I really am on it. :-)

Do you think that you are on it because of Tim or for some other reason?

	- Igor.






From kent at songbird.com  Sat Nov 15 23:33:43 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:33:43 +0800
Subject: Discrimination and Prejudice are Not Necessarily Bad Things
In-Reply-To: <v0310281eb093cfb6329b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971115232707.00614@songbird.com>



On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 04:03:22PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
> The recent list discsussion reminds me that not all of you have yet thrown
> off your knee-jerk reaction to "prejudice" and "discrimination."

You are so kind to enlighten us.

[...]

> But I am surprised that more members of this list have not managed to throw
> off the baggage of "discrimination is bad" simplemindedness.
>
> To be sure, certain forms of racism, bigotry, and discrimination are both
> irrational and counterproductive. The black man who thinks of all whites as
> devils is no different from the white man who thinks of all blacks as
> illiterate criminals.

OK, so it is valuable to be able to "discriminate" between roses and
thistles, and squares and triangles.  And I'm glad that you think
"certain forms" of racism and bigotry are irrational and
counterproductive.  But the obvious inference from your statement is
that there are other forms of bigotry and racism, forms that you think
are "productive and rational". 

> But let's not forget what "discrimination" means. It means choosing some
> actions or beliefs over others. It used to be a compliment  to say someone
> had "discriminating tastes."

How about we forget your dance around the delicate shades of 
meaning accorded the word "discriminate", and get back to "bigotry" 
and "racism"?  I'm sure that a description of the the forms of 
bigotry and racism you value would be most enlightening. 

[...]

> Does this mean I have a morbid fear of black people? Nope. Does it mean I
> would never hire a black? Nope. (I did in fact help hire a black scientist
> when I was at Intel.)

Whooeee.

> And I also don't think certain words are off limits to white people. If
> blacks use the term "nigger" (or "nigga") and refer to black women as
> "hoes" (whores, in Ebonics), why are these terms then bowdlerized in
> mainstream texts as "the "N" word" (etc.)?
> 
> Likewise, if homosexuals call themselves "queers" and "dykes," as in "Queer
> Nation," "Dykes on Bikes," and so on, how can they object when others use
> these words? (I know the post-Marxist, deconstructionist claptrap about
> their reclaiming of patriarchal words, blah blah. It still remains a case
> of "If we use it, it's OK, but if you use it, it's racist and homophobic.")

You make a standard racist apologist argument there, and it's still
wrong, as it always has been.  What is telling is that you make it.

The actual situation is this: racism is an emotional state, not a set
of words: you are a racist because of your feelings, not because of
your active vocabulary.  When words are used to express racist
sentiments they are racist words; when they are used with affection
they are not.  In practice, certain words are used with fair
regularity by bigots to express their bigotry; the targets of that
bigotry note those words. 

But the words really aren't the issue.  What marks someone as a bigot
are the emotions underlying the words.  When that someone is extremely
clever with words, like Tim May, it may be a little while before a
consistent emotional fingerprint comes through.  [In Tim's case the
emotional fingerprint is heavy contempt for most of the human race,
with special contempt for certain groups.]

It's worth noting that as an emotional phenomenon low-level racism and
bigotry are extremely common.  Anyone with a healthy amount of
emotional self-awareness realizes that they have irrational likes and
dislikes for other people that are triggered by appearance or 
behavior.  This is what makes Tim's apologia so pathetic.

[whole raft of dissembling racist apologia deleted]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






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Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:55:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Internet Marketing System
Message-ID: <199711162355.PAA21685@toad.com>



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to be removed from this mailing list,  reply and type remove in subject area






From kent at songbird.com  Sun Nov 16 01:18:28 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:18:28 +0800
Subject: Kent Cripin's cynical liberalism
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971116010003.07624@songbird.com>



On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 06:21:50PM -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
[accuses me of not knowing humor]
>   (Kent, are you the one sending anonyous emails to whitehouse.gov
>    saying, "Throw rocks at DC!"?)

No.  But here's a joke:

    The pope and President Clinton died on the same day, but due to an
    administrative foul up, Clinton was sent to heaven and the Pope
    was sent to hell. 

    The Pope explained the situation to the devil, he checked out all
    of the paperwork, and the error was acknowledged.  The Pope was
    told, however, that it would take about 24 hours to fix the
    problem and correct the error. 

    The next day, the Pope was called in and the devil said his
    good-bye as he went off to heaven. 

    On his way up, he met Clinton who was on his way down, and they
    stop to chat. 

    Pope: Sorry about the mix up. 

    President Clinton: No problem. 
          
    Pope: Well, I'm really excited about going to heaven. 

    President Clinton: Why's that?

    Pope: All my life I've wanted to meet the Virgin Mary. 

    President Clinton: You're a day late. 

[...]

>   Really, Kent, you surely can't have lived such a cloistered life that
> you judge everything in life by the words and images cast upon the 
> Silver Screen of alleged reality.

I don't think anyone who knows me would say I have lived a cloistered 
life.  "Checkered" is the word that comes to mind.  Though I've been pretty 
stable the last 20 years. :-)

>   In my younger days I used to get picked up by dirt-farmers while
> hitchiking, and be subjected to a predictable lecture about long
> hair, hippies all ought to get a job, kids today...blah, blah.
> Most of the time, before dropping me off, the farmer would dig
> a few bucks out of his pocket and offer it to me, saying, "Have
> you eaten today? Here, take this."

My youth was similar.  But now the tables have turned, eh? Last
Tuesday I was coming home from a doctors appt., and saw a guy 
standing at a light with a sign "Homeless -- will work for food".  It 
was getting dark; I happened to have a $10 bill handy, so I rolled 
down my window and gave it to him -- just another bleeding heart 
liberal, I guess.  But I didn't give him a lecture.

> > >   I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
> > > I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
> > > fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference.
>  
> > courtesy = censorship
> 
> Courtesy = free choice of words = honest self-censorship
> Politcially Correct Politeness = Mandatory/voluntary self-censorship

I just tossed that out to think about.  The relationship between 
courtesy and censorship is pretty subtle.


> NEWS FLASH!!!
>   Once you grow up and move away from home, then many things that were
> formerly mandatory (or else!) become voluntary. People who were easy
> to toilet train often go through life thinking that they are 'good'
> people just because they still haven't figured out that they have
> a 'choice' of how to speak, act, behave.  
>   I'll take a good old redneck who has learned not to 'hate niggers'
> as much as he used to, over an anal retentive batik artist who 
> still hasn't figured out that he clenches his teeth when he speaks
> of the 'Black-Afro American' who robbed and pistol-whipped him.

Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once.  The
perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing a
gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of the
cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I don't clench my teeth over it.  But racism does get under my skin,
in a very personal way. 

[...]

>   The best way to eliminate racism is to hire a racist, go to dinner
> with a racist, talk with a racist--not to sit drinking cafe latte 
> with your friends while denouncing racism.

Hardly an exhaustive list of options.

>   I find it hard to believe that the slants and the round-eyes on
> this list think that apparent differences in the backgrounds and
> beliefs of list members deserves more discussion than the loss of
> our common freedoms,

It's because there are enough people on the list who see a distinction
between preservation of freedom, and hate and fear mongering.  Even
more, I think that many feel that the hate and fear mongering is
actually contrary to the goal of preserving freedom. 

[...]

>   In the course of pursuing things which are important in our life
> (such as producing the Nutly News), we will be much more productive
> if we refrain from joining in mouth-jerk reactions to the worms
> that get dangled in front of us by the anonymous entities posting
> from the boat above us.

Right.  I never pay attention to anonymous entities.

>   And the way this relates to crypto is...NONE OF YOUR FUCKING
> BUSINESS! (<--- Topically Incorrect)
> 
> TruthMonger

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From schear at lvdi.net  Sun Nov 16 01:43:01 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:43:01 +0800
Subject: Anti-Grav?
Message-ID: <v03102807b094261c9844@[208.129.55.202]>



I must have been sleeping, but it appears I missed the emergence of another Fleischman-Pons ("cold fusion") style episode, this time having to do with antigravity.  Experiments in 1992 in Finland seemed to show that the Earth's gravity could be shielded with a superconductor.  This experiment, by Eugene Podkletnov, at Finland's Tampere University of Technology, apparently displayed a reduction in the weight of objects placed above a levitating, rotating high Tc superconducting disk, exposed to high frequency magnetic fields. 

http://www.virtualpet.com/rbbi/folders/tech/basic/gravity.htm

http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/gravity.html#pandb

There are at least three different theoretical models for the effect -- gravitomagnetism, local change to cosmological constant, and outright shielding.  Detractors have pointed to possible experimental errors as the cause for the apparent levitation.  

Gravitomagnetism
The coupling of supercurrents to the classical gravitational field is extremely weak. The reason, of course, stems from the smallness of the coupling between gravity and the energy-momentum tensor of matter. One might wonder whether in a quantum theory of gravity - or at least in an approximation of the theory for weak fields - the Bose condensate of the Cooper pairs, due to its macroscopic quantum character, can play a more subtle role than as a simple contribution to the energy-momentum tensor. 

In other words, we wonder if the macroscopic quantum coherence of the condensate can be taken into account at a fundamental level in computing the interaction between the superconductor and the external gravitational field.  Results might then differ from those obtained for the gravitational coupling of "regular", incoherent matter.

Shielding
It appears that a theory is being developed for simple shielding of gravity, in analogy with the shielding of microwaves by metal.  Different materials shield or don't  shield EM ratiation at various frequencies; metal shields microwaves, but plastic does not. Pure YBCO superconductors do not shield microwaves, but YBCO  doped with small amounts of lead or silver does.  They relate this to gravity shielding by virtue of two ideas -- that gravity might have a frequency (very high, on the order of the Planck length, or 10^34) -- a very speculative idea -- and that the bose condensate within a superconductor could radically lower the effective interaction frequency of gravity so that it could be shielded by ordinary matter. 

On a related note, NASA has Breakthrough Propusion page http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp which outlines their plans and activities to explore (and hopefully perfect) non-mass based propusion technologies.  They seem to be taking this seriously enough to form a Delta-G group at their Marshall Space Flight Center to try and reproduce Podkletnov's (and others) experiments.  

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
Lammar Laboratories       |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: schear at lvdi.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------







From blancw at cnw.com  Sun Nov 16 01:54:08 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:54:08 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971115222916.006bc088@cnw.com>



Nerthus wrote:

>In many cases, State Sovereignty is just another phrase for the "Petty
>Bureaucrats Reempowerment Act": moral dictators hiding behind the flag
>of freedom.
>
>As for me, I'll take Individual Sovereignty over State Sovereignty on
>any day.  The 9th Amendment states: 
[....]
................................................................


The statement from Colorado Senator Charles Duke on the "10th Amendment
Sovereignty Resolution" was the first I'd heard of it, so I wasn't aware
that it was limited to a vision of smaller States over Larger States.   I,
too, would prefer a showdown for a recognition of  Individual Sovereignty,
distant as such a thing may seem in possibility.   Only science fiction
authors and readers seem to be able to identify individuality out of a mass
of "social factors".
    ..
Blanc






From blancw at cnw.com  Sun Nov 16 01:54:12 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:54:12 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971115221801.006c1504@cnw.com>




As good crypto-anarchists, no one on this list should care what Tim's views
are on race.   Your main concern should be a good defense against
aggression;  if Tim hasn't taken any action to bring harm to others, then
there's isn't any need to worry about his opinion.

Just lock & load.

    ..
Blanc






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Nov 16 04:52:13 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:52:13 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <199711150145.CAA24285@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971116123336.915D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> >Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
> >Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
> >magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
> >(...)
> >Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

> The death penalty is completely inappropriate for this kind of crime.
> It should be reserved for the most serious of criminal actions, the most
> egregious murders, terrorism, genocide.

No, this judge is guilty of false imprisonment, if I kidnapped you and 
falsely imprisoned you for 3 years in a 6x9 cell where you would live 
with another inmate, and prison officers who may turn a blind eye when 
you were raped by the other prisoners, I should be expecting to die for 
my crimes.

> Calling for the death penalty for crimes which do not themselves involve
> killing only cheapens life.  Before long you too will support shooting
> graffiti vandals and nuking London.

No, I support flogging of graffiti vandals (killing for repeat 
offenders), and assasinations as a means of removing government 
criminals, nuking is too indiscriminate.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Nov 16 04:53:07 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:53:07 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971115143130.915B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> > find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> > not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> 
> Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?

It seems like something which has been blown out of all proportion by a 
few over-zealous pinko-liberal members of the list who support free 
speech right upto the point where someone says something which upsets 
them, then they run crying to mommy or hide under the bed. 
Racist comments to me would be those that generalised the opinion to all 
Japanese, Tim insulted one particular person. If you are going to become
oversensitive about such comments the cypherpunks list is probably the
worst place to be.

> His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
> you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
> included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers? 

No, because most people would misinterpret it in the same way you, and 
some other list members have, if I could be assured they would understand 
it as a light hearted mild insult rather than a racist remark I would 
have no problem saying it in those circumstances.

> It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> racist comments directed against the Japanese. 

Correction: I don`t make a living as a consultant, it`s merely a 
part-time bit of cash on the side thing, but, personal circumstances 
aside, were I a full time consultant, doing it for a living, I don`t see 
how it would affect my opinion as to what constitutes a serious racist 
comment.

> Does William expect ever
> to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

Most customers are too clueless to be reading such a list and won`t know 
what he said, that aside I don`t see the relevance.

> Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
> not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
> you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
> case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.

I don`t shy away from saying what I think for financial reasons (at least 
not in most cases, that said I wouldn`t call my employer a 
nigger/wop/greezer/kike if I thought it would cost me my job.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Nov 16 04:56:27 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:56:27 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <19971114235753.18387@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971116122006.915C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> > At the risk of responding to a post which has a good probability of being 
> > a troll I will at least say that the above opinion may be that of several 
> > members, but the fact is the list has evolved, it never had an original 
> > defined purpose, at least not one easily put into words, and applauding 
> > murder of government agents is a part of the whole strong crypto privacy 
> > and liberty ethic.
> 
> Bullshit.  Applauding murder has nothing to do with strong crypto 
> privacy or liberty.

Yes it does, if one has a strong moral sense about things like individual 
rights and privacy, and the government attempt to deny the people these 
rights, the government have commited a great wrong, it is only to be 
expected that the natural response is to encourage their removal. I find 
it amazing how many people support the punishment of murderers and 
kidnappers in society at large, but exempt from this the particular group 
of people composing the government.

> > As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
> > find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> > not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> 
> Tim's post is an example of what the RACIST world knows as humor, 
> Paul.  Racism isn't an intellectual phenomenon, it is a gut 
> phenomenon.  Frequently it manifests itself in humor.

Oversensitivity, plain and simple, I find some racist jokes funny, I am 
not racist.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Nov 16 05:03:56 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:03:56 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <19971115000110.24436@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971115142733.915A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> > >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> > >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> > >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> > 
> > Just so.
> 
> Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.

I do wish members of a list where I would expect the IQ and education of 
the people who post often to be higher than average would see through 
this politically correct BS, there is a difference between penning a 
mildly insulting humorous note to an idiot on a mailing list and being a 
card-carrying white supremacist. 

Nothing more to it...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov 16 05:44:17 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:44:17 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711161339.HAA15559@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Joichi Ito wrote:
>But, I suppose chaos is good. For you and for us. It's always nice to
>be reminded that racisms in the US is still alive and
>active. Sometime I forget and almost identify with you folks.

Wait a second.  Are you claiming that because one (1.) racist is on a
list, that everybody on the list is a racist?  How curious.

Could this be an artifact of Japanese culture?  I have heard that
Japanese culture emphasizes collective responsibilty to a higher
degree than in the United States.  So, for instance, a group like this
one would be both more formally regulated and also informally socially
regulated.  That is, when Tim makes some sort of comment, everybody
else would be somehow responsible for it.

I am glad this is not that kind of group.  I believe such groups are
not very interesting and have difficulty exploring novel ideas.

Perhaps it would be better to think of this list as a park which can
be visited by anybody in the world.

(1. Even that one is greatly in doubt!)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov 16 05:44:33 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:44:33 +0800
Subject: Racism: Wrong or incorrect?
Message-ID: <199711161339.HAA15536@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Racism is one of those very interesting topics to discuss because
large areas of the discussion are forbidden territory.

Is racism wrong or is it incorrect?  The most generally held belief in
the United States is that it is wrong to express racist ideas
publicly, but that many of these ideas are, in fact, correct.  Most
white Americans truly believe in their innermost hearts that black
Americans are fundamentally more violent, less intelligent, and to be
pitied.  At the same time, many of these white Americans believe they
are committing some sort of sin in having these beliefs.

If the belief is true, how can it be sinful to believe it?  If it is
not true, then why believe it?

A good friend was driving through the American South recently.  He is
not of the dominant racial group.  He was involved in more than one
scary incident on his drive.  What was initially surprising to me was
that he said he sort of preferred the South to the North because at
least in the South people were more "up front."  When you think about
it for a minute that makes a lot of sense.  Who would want to spend
time with people who are patronizing?

This can be seen in just about every aspect of the racial policies of
the United States government.  The fundamental assumption of an
affirmative action program is that nobody would actually want to hire
a member of the subordinate ethnic group.  When somebody chooses to
hire based on ethnicity it doesn't hurt their business in most cases.
The advocates of affirmative action claim not be racists, yet we
rarely find them promoting racial integration in the work place by
advertising the fantastic deal which is available by hiring people who
are irrationally discriminated against by other employers.  We must
conclude that many advocates of affirmative action believe that the
subordinate group is actually inferior in many ways.

It's good for people to discuss their ideas.  That's how we arrive at
truth and mutual understanding.  It is terribly unfortunate that
discussions of racism, which is allegedly an important topic, have
been methodically discouraged for a number of decades in the United
States.

On one hand, I would prefer Tim had not made his "go now, chop chop"
posts.  I would like to see Nobuki Nakatuji stay around, write code,
master English, American culture, and Cypherpunk Life.  Tim's comments
may not promote that.

On the other hand, I'm not sure it's a good idea to discourage
anyone's explorations into certain highly forbidden areas.  Somehow
the work of Robert Crumb comes to mind.  Crumb has dallied with a
number of forbidden racial and sexual ideas.  I can't even say I like
the feeling or the tone of his work, yet, somehow, there is something
of value there which is hard to articulate.

Of course, what is most interesting about Tim's comments is that he
appears to be out on the end of three bell curves in the United
States:

1. He does not believe (I think) that it is morally wrong to have a
racist belief.

2. He does not believe racist beliefs are a correct description of
reality.

3. He says what he thinks.

Another curious aspect of the taboos on racial discussions is the
weird racially defined double standard of conduct.  Black power is
more or less an acceptable topic of discussion.  White power is
absolutely not.  Why?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov 16 05:44:43 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:44:43 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
Message-ID: <199711161339.HAA15521@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody at replay.com>
>Paul Bradley writes:
>>Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
>>Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
>>magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
>>The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights
>>activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause
>>of animal liberation.
>>
>>Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.
>
>Another example of the violent rhetoric which goes without comment on
>this list.

This is simply untrue.  In several instances I have argued against the
use of violence as impractical.  (It's also distasteful.)

Incidentally, who is it that should be creating articles that express
your beliefs?  Since you haven't seen the quantity of articles
opposing violence that you would like, perhaps you wouldn't mind
telling us why you haven't been writing them?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov 16 05:45:10 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:45:10 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
Message-ID: <199711161339.HAA15580@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Addressing Tim May, Anonymous <nobody at replay.com> wrote:
>Do you really hope that D.C. gets nuked?  Do other list readers
>agree?  How many people would this kill?  Over half a million live in
>the city proper, with millions more in the surrounding areas.  You
>have now said that you would hope to see many of these millions of
>people killed.

There is probably a double standard in play here.  (BTW, one advantage
of persistent identity is that it creates a context for the discussion
which makes it possible to explore deeper ideas.)

Very few people eschew violence completely or are overly troubled by
the deaths of innocents in the process...

>You're not even the worst.  Other posters have supported this kind of
>sickening violence even more openly.  No one complains.  Apparently
>everyone with an ounce of moral sense has left the list long ago.

..so when you claim that nobody with any moral sense would favor
violence, you have essentially declared that most of the human race is
without moral sense.  It's an interesting proposition, but it is by no
means obvious that it is true.

Also, it is puzzling that you have singled out a few subscribers to
this list for attention.  There are literally millions of people all
over the globe who are actively involved with planning and executing
horrible acts of violence.  In this company, the readers of this list
are pretty insignificant.  I do not know of a single act of violence
associated with any list member.  In practice, you would be hard
pressed to find a more peaceful group anywhere in the world.

One of the things that appeals to me about the tools the cypherpunks
are developing is the likelihood that they will end war.  What
percentage of wars are instigated and organized by governments?  That
is, how many wars can we think of in which a war originated in the
population of country and dragged its unwilling government into the
fray?  I cannot think of any.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From tm at dev.null  Sun Nov 16 06:19:42 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:19:42 +0800
Subject: InfoWarriors - Alpha / TEXT
Message-ID: <346EFE30.5731@dev.null>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Predilogue
   * InfoWarriors

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                 Predilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           Prologue to 'WebWorld'

The great tragedy of it, is that it didn't have to happen. Not at all...we
were warned.
And yet, still, it has come to this.

I don't know why I feel this overwhelming compulsion to go on and on about
it. I could have done something. We all could have done something.
Perhaps the final epitaph on the gravestone of Freedom will be,
"Why didn't somebody do something?"

That seems to be the common battle-cry of the legions of humanity that have
been sucked into the vortex of the New World Order.
None of the imprisoned seem to know that the very phrase itself is
reflective of the source of their imprisonment...that this desperate cry of
anguish is in no way an antidote for the terrible disease that has afflicted
'Liberty and Justice', and that it is, rather, merely the final symptom of
the cursed blight itself.

I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come up the street, and soon I
will be hearing the thumping of the jackboots storming up the staircase, as
I have heard them so many times before. But I suspect that this time, the
sound will be different, that it will have an ethereal quality about it, one
which conveys greater personal meaning than it did when I heard it on
previous occasions.
This time, they are coming for me.

My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere inside
myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there is a 'they'
to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally come to this for me,
as for countless others.

The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is essential for
any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and liberty to ask themselves
upon finding themselves marveling at the outrageousness being perpetrated
upon their neighbors by 'them'...by 'others'...by 'Friends of the
Destroyer.'

                The question is: "Why didn't I do something?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience."

-Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            InfoWarriors - Alpha

Subject: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

Some of the questions by Mark Rogaski and others ask about the nature of the
revolution I and others are predicting and encouraging.

What will a just revolution, like those anticipated by Jefferson, Franklin,
and others, look like?

The British thought the colonial rebels were "playing dirty" by shooting
from behind trees instead of marching in bright uniforms with drums and
bugles to herald their way.

Modern armies think freedom fighters are "terrorist scum" for not fighting
honestly and fairly in their own M-1 Abrams tanks and aircraft carriers.

So, too, will revolutionaries be seen as fighting "unfairly" and being
unethical sneaks, child killers, and terrorists.
(As if children and other innocents did not die in various incidents in past
wars, on all sides.)

When Jefferson predicted that a revolution was needed every 20 years or so,
he surely was not saying that throwing one party out of leadership and
putting the other party in was an example of such a revolution, or that
"campaign reform" is such an example. Nor was he saying that the only valid
revolution would be when a bunch of citizens or states got together their
own army and marched on Washington.
(Actually, raising such an army is in violation of numerous laws about heavy
weapons, licenses to carry weapons, etc. No doubt illegal. Ironically.)

No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from anything
quite like we've seen to date.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Blanc <blancw at cnw.com>
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

Tim May wrote:
>No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from anything
>quite like we've seen to date.
....................................................

In the revolution against the British, the U.S. was a small colony sitting
on a vast "new" land, with the Natives but a minor obstacle to expansion.
Presently there is no such unoccupied place which could be claimed for the
cause of liberty, and revolutionaries are sitting in the middle of the enemy
camp, surrounded everywhere by people who "just want to save lives".

You could temporarily send a political message and get your names in the
news, but then totally lose the war from being outnumbered and overwhelmed
by non-sympathizers. A long time ago it was possible, given the distance of
water and land between peoples, to make a break with them physically. The
enemy could be driven out, sent "home", and the winners could develop their
new living arrangements in the new setting.

But there is no new setting to go to, there is nowhere to send the infidels.
The life of a new libertarian "society" would have to be created as a
virtual one, existing among or in-between the others. Of course the basis of
the original setup is still mentioned every once in a while, and so it is
still in the minds of everyone, even if only as a dim reference, so it could
be said that the most a current revolution could accomplish would be the
return of the original ideal to the minds of the population. But I think
that it would take much more than a few skirmishes to accomplish that, as it
doesn't appear that it carries all that much support. It would be like
getting a kid to take down some medicine; many don't really want to live so
independently, nor feel the need to identify what kind of life would be the
more ideal (i.e. they don't identify precisely the difference between a
socialist atmosphere and a libertarian one, nor concern themselves with why
they should spend any time worrying about the difference it makes.)

An intentional revolution, I fear, would just look like an attempt to make
people think. And therefore not taken too seriously. (And if the
revolutionaries lose? tough luck. Oh, well. )

..
Blanc
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Adam Shostack <adam at homeport.org>
To: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
CC: cypherpunks at toad.com

The distinction between civilians and soldiers, which came about in the 17th
and 18th centuries, is close to meaningless in the context of a modern
revolution. However, this distinction, and the Clausewitzian claim that war
is the continuation of politics by other means, underlay the 'law of war.'

War as the continuation of politics implies that the State sends soldiers to
war against other soldiers to fight for policy rights. War to gain
territory, war over insults or honor, religious war, is seen as a thing of
the past. Barbaric. Modern warriors can not understand people who play by
other rules. To some extent, this has been good for us civilians. The
firebombing of German cities were an exception, not the rule.

However, as the anti-colonial movement demonstrated, a people can
effectively fight a modern army, and win. They are marked as terrorists,
defamed for their capitalist activities such as drug smuggling to finance
the struggle, and hanged when caught.

A modern revolution, as Mao taught, is based on forcing people to decide if
they are with you or against you. There are no neutrals who simply want the
status quo to continue, because once the revolutionaries have started to do
their job, the state lashes out, passing fascist new laws (see Northern
Ireland, Peru, the United States). The status quo disappears, and the
revolutionaries are committed. It is only by making starkly clear who stands
where that enough people to fuel the revolution can have the manpower to
succeed. The alternative to the revolution becomes living under the
government that killed your family members. In Algeria, once the first few
thousands of martyrs died, every additional person the French killed was a
new reason to fight. Surrender, to the Algerians, became inconceivable. Life
as French was not worth living. So they fought.

When the revolution comes to the United States, it will not be a pretty
thing. Our best hope is for a rapid surrender of the current government,
which is not likely. By deploying now the tools of communication (remailers,
strong encryption, directions for building bombs and traps, cheap radio
transmitters), as well as the tools for deception (how hard is it to build a
fake GPS transmitter?), and the understanding that the US government has
grown cancerous, we bring closer the beginning and the end of the
revolution.

We bring its start closer by forcing the Government to show its true colors,
turning more people against it. We bring its finish closer by having ready
the tools to render ineffective the large fighting machines we have paid
for, by making it clear that the government does not have the support of the
people, and by making it clear that once committed, we will have to fight.

So, Tim, we disagree that it will be like nothing seen before. It will be
like many modern revolutions, because we can't force the government to fight
on our terms today.

20 years later, we will look back, and realize that governments have
murdered most of the innocents they will ever kill, because will can deploy
technology to make government voluntary. But we're not there, and getting
there may be bloody.

There is, of course, Duncan's Berlin Wall theory, but I fear things will
have to get worse before they get better.

Adam
--
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
-Hume
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks at toad.com

Warmaking is ever changing in response to the last wins and losses. However,
winners are less likely to change than losers, for why change a successful
formula, publish it, or a well-spun dissimulation.

As ever, unknown forms of war are in gestation, being tested and debriefed,
in military institutions and wargames, in business, in education, in the
amorphous culture at large through legal competition and crime and their
variable gray areas where fair and unfair, civilized rules and their
breaking, are ever in grim and vicious dispute.

While there are piles of studies on organized and guerrilla wars of the
past, the most provocative are those that attempt to describe what's coming,
how to recognize its early warnings and what can be done to head it off or,
more likely, advance it.

The highest warmaking art is winning without physical fighting, to outfox
the enemy by demoralizing, by demonstrating that attack is futile, that
there is no chance of defeating a superior force. That's why military
exhibitionism and psy war is reputed among military and political leaders to
be as vital as that of brute force, as best exemplified by the Cold War
50-year stalemate and psychological "win-win" to a status of Cool War.

To get a handle on what's in store, imagine that completely unbelievable
methods of warfare, overt and covert, are being concocted now, composed of
strategies, tactics, warfighters and armaments never before used -- and will
not be revealed and understood until too late for defense.

Try to forget everything you know about warfighting, crime fighting,
conflict resolution, rules of engagement, black operations, guerrilla
tactics, hiding among the people. Assume the enemy knows everything you know
and more, is better armed and smarter than you, has more spies among your
supporters and in your most intimate circle.

Imagine that your toilet, your bed, your fridge, your car, your is triggered
to explode by radio or your computer by your password.

Consider that there will be no time to reflect and reconsider when things go
catastrophically wrong and the enemy is unrelenting attacking with inhuman
viciousness, when you're defenses are crumbling and weapons failing, when
mates are squealing, dead or run away, when you can't stop shitting
yourself, when your legs are buckling, when your minds racing out of
control, when you're begging god and mom for mercy and the upraised ax is
descending, the barrel back of head is firing.

Remember that who the enemy is no secret to either side, on whichever side
you're on, and presume that the emery is more ready and able to cook your
goose than you are theirs.

What actual war carnage teaches, what the current civil war in the US is
showing, is what the TV-sofa war does not: nobody wins, ever, except the
mindfuckers who've never gone berserk in combat or in the jobplace, killed
friend and foe to save own asses.

You only win wars by never having to fight them, those started by weakling
cowards unable to steal, cheat and lie well enough to satisfy their demonic
lusts.

Best to outsmart the enemy in war, work and love, so that what you're up to
is revealed only years later if ever. For the best won wars are never known
at the time, no parades, no medals, no glory, no war stories, no memorial
cemeteries and monuments, no veteran hospitals filled with carrion, just
peace and tranquillity shooting deer, harpooning dolphins, rip-tearing the
landscape for profligate cowboy wargames riding homicidal freeways.

We're all gonna lose our civil war in market place killings and road rage,
thanks to today's warfighting lesson in free fire criminal enterprise by
those who've never been shot and shot and shot, and lost for good -- the
vainglorious winners, the losers desperate to regain glory days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Bell sentencing timed to coincide with raids on militia
members?
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr at together.net>
To: "Tim May" <tcmay at got.net>, "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks at Algebra.COM>

On 10/31/97 3:01 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) passed this wisdom:

>Get ready, folks. By the way, I'll be at the gun show at the Cow Palace in
>San Francisco on the weekend of November 8-9, probably Saturday, the 8th.
>Seems I'm running low on certain types of ammo, and I may want to pick up a
>couple more assault rifles before Swinestein succeeds in completely banning
>them.

I used to think that way ... but then I thought, why pay all that money and
walk the line of whatever Swinestein et al come up with. Instead I have my
deer rifles and a shotgun or two and ammo for both. The way this all is
working now, I have more combat experience than 90% of the active duty
military and most cops, and every day goes by more and more are retiring. If
it ever comes down to that, I'll take down one or two of them with my deer
rifle and help myself to their weapons and ammo ... also kind of makes sure
I haven't set myself up to depend on an obsolete caliber ... if I am not
good enough to take some of them down and take their weapons, no 300 nor
30,000 rounds for my very own Armalite is going to make any difference.

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
For PGP Keys <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

"Everyone who lives dies; but not everyone who dies has lived"
-- No Fear
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes at ssds.com>
To: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
CC: cypherpunks at toad.com

"To preserve [the] independence [of the people,] we must not let our rulers
load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and
liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we
must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our
comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds,
as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor
sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to
the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the sixteenth being
insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal
and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to
account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet
their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers."

--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816.

jim
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: FEMA site using cookies
From: Crisavec <dbrown at alaska.net>
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

Attila T. Hun typethed the following...

>> The USMC 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey:

>>"The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale,
>>transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms
>>...consider the following statement:
>>> I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or
>>> resist confiscation of firearms banned by the
>>> U.S. government..."
>
> they were looking for a yes/no answer --no maybes. if anybody thinks
>this is a joke --it was not; it was given to most units at 29 Palms,
>Pendleton, LeJuene, and Paris Island. the percentage responses were
>interesting: men with less than 5 years service were 90% "yes" --grizzled
>old NCOMs with 15 or more years were less than 15% "yes." shows what the
>federal government educational system is capable of conditioning with a
>little help from movies and television. subliminally, was has been
>glorified by the merchants of death: arms manufacturers and power hungry
>politicians. --

This doesn't surprise me at all Attila. They don't teach the constitution in
High School anymore. That accounts for the lower ranks. The NCOM's answers
are to be expected, They STRESS Posse Commitais<sp?> and the constitution
for ALL noncom's. It's part of the testing for promotion to E-5 and up.
Most of the noncom's have been in long enough to be thoroughly disillusioned
by the military in general. The only thing keeping a lot of them in is
inertia...

--Dave

Any neural system sufficiently complex to generate the axioms
of arithmetic is too complex to be understood by itself.
Kaekel's Conjecture
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Fwd: psychoceramics: Fighting back against the Government
From: Alan Olsen <alan at clueserver.org>
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

This is an interesting spin doctoring of Jim Bell's situation. I picked this
up off the psychoceramics list. Why it was there is unclear...

Terrorism's next wave -- Nerve gas and germs are the new weapons of choice
BY DAVID E. KAPLAN

Jeff Gordon thought he had seen it all. A veteran IRS investigator, Gordon's
job since 1988 had been to probe threats and assaults against his fellow
agents. There was no shortage in recent years--stabbings, fires, mortar
attacks, and big unexploded bombs outside IRS offices in Los Angeles and
Reno, Nevada. But in the first months of this year, Gordon found himself
working on the strangest case of his career. From an informant, he had
learned of a Portland, Ore., man named James Dalton Bell. Bell owed some
$30,000 in back taxes and served as a juror in a local "common law court."
Dozens of these self-appointed tribunals have issued "fines" and even death
sentences against public officials. Bell was also active in antigovernment
forums on the Internet, where he had posted a dark scheme threatening murder
of troublesome federal agents. Participants could send encrypted messages to
each other, Bell proposed, offering donations to whoever "predicted" how
long a targeted official would live. The winner, presumably the assassin,
would be rewarded with electronic fund transfers from anonymous donors, he
suggested. Gordon checked further. Bell, it turned out, was an electronics
engineer
at a nearby circuit board manufacturer. He was also an MIT-educated
chemist who had been arrested eight years earlier for making
methamphetamine, but pleaded guilty to a lesser charge. According to
court records, Bell had once told a friend: "The first thing to remember
is: Never make a chemist angry at you."
In February, the IRS docked Bell's wages and seized his 10-year-old car.
Inside the vehicle, Gordon found instructions for making bombs and molotov
cocktails. There was also far-right literature, a printout listing large
amounts of cyanide, and detailed information on fertilizer, a key ingredient
in the Oklahoma City bomb. But with no evidence that Bell had hurt anyone,
Gordon could not move. A burning stench. Four weeks later, on a Monday
morning in March, IRS officials encountered a terrible nose-burning stench
as they arrived at their building in Vancouver, the Portland suburb where
Bell lived. Investigators traced the smell to a welcome mat dosed with
propanethiol. The chemical is used by utilities in minuscule concentrations
to give natural gas its noticeable smell. "It's Bell," Gordon told his boss.
"I'm sure of it." Bell had attempted twice to buy propanethiol from a
chemical-supply company in Milwaukee, Gordon then learned. Worried that the
stink bomb was a trial run for something much worse, on April 1, authorities
raided Bell's home. They seized five computers and three semiautomatic
assault rifles, then opened his garage door. Before them stood dozens of
containers filled with chemicals. There were volatile solvents, explosives
ingredients, sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and diisopropyl
fluorophosphate--one of several ingredients that, if properly mixed, form
nerve gas--all in a residential neighborhood. "The level and type of
chemicals were extremely unusual," said Leroy Loiselle, who managed the
cleanup for the Environmental Protection Agency. "You don't need nitric acid
to keep aphids off your flowers." On Bell's computers, Gordon found two
other items: the names and home addresses of over 100 public officials--IRS
employees, FBI agents, local police officers--and a 169-page document, The
Terrorist's Handbook, with detailed instructions for making chemical weapons
and high explosives. Bell's friends told investigators that he had tried
using green beans to make botulin toxin, which causes botulism, and that he
claimed to have successfully made sarin, the nerve gas used by Japanese
cultists in their 1995 attack on the Tokyo subway.
Bell was arrested. In July he pleaded guilty to charges of obstruction of
IRS agents and use of a false Social Security number, and also admitted to
the stink bomb attack and the cyberassassination scheme. He faces up to
eight years in prison and $500,000 in fines. Bell declined to comment, but
he contended earlier that he is merely "a chemical hobbyist" and the
assassination scheme only an abstract proposal. "I'm a talker, not a doer,"
he said. The IRS's Jeff Gordon remains wary. According to court records,
after his arrest Bell boasted to a friend that police never found his most
dangerous chemical weapons. Gordon believes they could include a secret
stockpile of sarin.

New generation. Characters like James Dalton Bell are giving federal
officials fits these days. Bell, they believe, is one of a new generation of
tinkerers and technicians, of college-educated extremists threatening to use
biological, chemical, or radiological weapons to achieve their goals. Since
the Aum cult's Tokyo nerve gas attack, FBI officials say the number of
credible threats to use these weapons has jumped from a handful in 1995, to
20 last year, to twice that number this year. Among the incidents was the
1995 mailing of a videotape to Disneyland, showing two hands mixing
chemicals and a note threatening an attack on the theme park. Despite a
major investigation, the sender was never caught. Just last April someone
sent a petri dish labeled anthrax, an animal disease deadly to humans, to
the B'nai B'rith headquarters in Washington, D.C. That proved to be a hoax.

But other threats appear to be quite real. Four militia members in Minnesota
were convicted recently of planning to assassinate federal agents with a
biological toxin. In Ohio in 1995, a white supremacist pleaded guilty to
wire fraud in illegally obtaining three vials of bubonic plague bacteria.
Investigators have found biochemical agents in the hands of political
extremists, extortionists, murderers, and the mentally ill. U.S. News has
learned that the FBI has 50 current investigations of individuals suspected
of using or planning to use radiological, biological, or chemical agents.
Bureau officials say a major attack in the United States no longer seems
unlikely. "The consensus of people in the law enforcement and intelligence
communities is that it's not a matter of if it's going to happen, it's
when," warns Robert Blitzer, head of the FBI's terrorism section. "We are
very concerned."

To prepare, federal agencies have scrambled to set up new counterterrorism
strike forces (story, Page 32). Behind all this is the very real fear that
the world has entered a new stage in terrorism. Widespread technical
education and high-tech communications have vastly increased the number of
people with knowledge of how to synthesize chemicals and culture bacteria.
Books and videos on creating these substances--and turning them into
weapons--are now available on the Internet, at gun shows and survivalist
fairs, and through the mail.

While its effects would be the most destructive, a nuclear incident is
actually the least likely scenario, according to security experts. More
likely, they say, would be a biological weapon attack; a chemical attack is
the next likely possibility. The impact could range from the poisoning of an
individual to sophisticated attempts at mass murder. So far, the majority
have been limited efforts by loners or small groups. Most worrisome to
officials is the possible involvement of more established, state-sponsored
terrorist organizations--such as Hezbollah--with international reach.

While the number of terrorist attacks, both in the United States and abroad,
has gone down since the end of the cold war, there is a flip side.
Individual acts themselves have grown more deadly, as illustrated by the
Oklahoma City and World Trade Center bombings. In its annual terrorism
report issued last April, the State Department sees a trend "toward more
ruthless attacks on mass civilian targets" and the use of more powerful
weapons.

Threshold crossed. Until this decade, biological and chemical weapons were
the province of superpowers or renegade states like Iraq and North Korea.
But all that changed with Aum Supreme Truth, an obscure sect of New Age
fanatics based at the foot of Mount Fuji, 70 miles outside Tokyo. Recent
court testimony from sect members shows how the cult's young scientists
produced not only anthrax and botulin toxin but also various nerve agents,
including the sarin used on Tokyo's subway. Later attacks were planned for
New York and Washington, D.C.

Still, it is one thing to produce deadly agents and another to use them
effectively. Aum's attack killed only 12 people of the thousands in the
subway system, and on seven other occasions, attempted Aum attacks were
dogged by equipment failures and human error. "Trying to produce 100,000
casualties is much more difficult than is often stated," observes Jonathan
Tucker of the Monterey Institute of International Studies. Tucker notes that
problems abound with delivery systems, meteorological conditions, and the
agents themselves. Still, he warns that even crude weapons can easily cause
mass disruption. Aum's nerve gas, for example, was full of impurities, yet
it sent thousands to the hospital.

What worries police is growing evidence that others share similar ambitions.
In 1993, two years before the Aum attack, Canadian border agents stopped an
American electrician named Thomas Lavy and searched his car. They found four
guns, 20,000 rounds of ammunition, 13 pounds of gunpowder, neo-Nazi
literature, and $80,000 in cash. Lavy also had recipes for biological and
chemical weapons and a plastic bag filled with white powder. Had the agents
opened the bag, they likely would have died of respiratory failure and
paralysis. Tests showed the substance to be ricin, a lethal toxin extracted
from the castor bean plant. (Ricin, dabbed on a tiny pellet fired from an
umbrella-gun, was used by Soviet agents to murder a Bulgarian in London in
1978.) The poison is 6,000 times more toxic than cyanide, and there is no
antidote. Lavy had a quarter pound of the stuff.

In 1995, a man named Larry Wayne Harris was arrested after he obtained vials
of the bacteria that cause bubonic plague (Page 28). Harris is an Ohio
microbiologist and recent member of the white supremacist Aryan Nations. He
says his friends will strike at government officials with biochemical
weapons, if provoked. "If they arrest a bunch of our guys, they get a test
tube in the mail," he told U.S. News. And, he says, far worse could come.
"How many cities are you willing to lose before you back off?" he asks. "At
what point do you say: `If these guys want to go off to the Northwest and
have five states declared to be their own free and independent country, let
them do it'?" Authorities take Harris's comments seriously.

The recipes for such poison cocktails are available from underground
publishers and on the Internet. One popularizer is an Arkansan named Kurt
Saxon. Through books and videotapes, Saxon has been putting out ricin
recipes for at least nine years. Convinced that the U.S. will be invaded and
that the federal government can't be trusted to defend the country, he has
fashioned various homemade explosives and poisons, including cyanide
grenades and ricin applicators. In one segment of a $19.95 video, Saxon
performs like a sinister Julia Child, blending salt water and solvents with
castor beans. ("Pour in about 4 ounces of acetone," he says, "and shake it
up nice.") "Uncle Fester," another near-legendary figure in the chem-bio
underground, has authored such family classics as Silent Death, Improvised
Explosives, and a guide to methamphetamine and LSD manufacture. Fester
claims degrees in chemistry and biology, and his Silent Death describes how
to produce poison gas, botulin and shellfish toxins, and ricin.

Similarly, entire manuals for making homemade explosives--TNT, plastic,
napalm--can be downloaded from the Net, as well as plans for building
triggers, fuses, and timers. At least 11 online vendors offer books with
recipes on biological or chemical weapons, including Silent Death and Kurt
Saxon's The Poor Man's James Bond. All are based in the United States.
Adding to the problem, many of the chemicals used to make nerve gas and
other agents have perfectly legitimate uses and are readily available. "The
genie has always been out of the bottle," says one intelligence analyst.
"People are just discovering it."

The genie is also loose in the Middle East. According to intelligence
sources, notebooks and computer files recently seized from Hezbollah, the
Iranian-backed Islamic militia, contain information on how to produce
chemical agents. Hezbollah has also taken delivery of protective gear,
including gas masks and bodysuits, and obtained Katyusha rockets able to
deliver chemical warheads to Israel from their base in Lebanon. Hezbollah's
interests are shared by at least one other Islamic terrorist, Ramzi Yusef, a
trained engineer and reputed mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center
bombing. Yusef's organization researched making sarin and reportedly planned
to assassinate President Clinton in the Philippines with phosgene gas. The
trade center bombers also packed cyanide into the charge that rocked the
building; the chemical apparently evaporated in the explosion.

Some analysts believe there have been other, unnoticed, attacks in the
United States. "It's almost certain there have been uses of biological
agents that have gone undetected," says Seth Carus, a proliferation expert
at the National Defense University. "Most cases are known because they came
to the attention of law enforcement through informants, not because of
medical authorities." Health officials, for example, were mystified by a
mass outbreak of salmonella poisoning in Oregon in 1984. The cause--an
attack by a nearby religious sect--went undetected until the cult's demise a
year later.

Exotic poisons are attracting not only terrorists but also murderers and
extortionists. Several recent trials have featured ricin as a murder weapon.
Product tamperers, too, are increasingly turning to biological agents. Says
Lori Ericson of Kroll Information Services: "We're seeing E. coli, cholera,
salmonella, HIV." In one British case, microbiologist Michael Just
threatened to contaminate the products of five food companies with
dysentery-causing bacteria. To make his point, he sent the firms test tubes
filled with the pathogen.

Society can likely tolerate the occasional murderer or extortionist wielding
biological or chemical weapons. The greater challenge undoubtedly will come
from those with broader grievances, from terrorists steeped in extremism and
political hatred. Perhaps scariest of all are the criminally insane, who may
bring technical ability, but little judgment, to their homemade
laboratories. Last April, authorities raided the house of one Thomas Leahy
in Janesville, Wis. Leahy, who takes medication for schizophrenia, was
obsessed with creating "killer viruses" to stop his enemies, both real and
imagined, according to police. He pleaded guilty to possessing ricin, but a
search of his home also found animal viruses and vaccines, staph bacteria
culture, fungicides, insecticides, hypodermic needles, and gas masks. As
Leahy reportedly told his wife, you can "never have too many poisons." With
Douglas Pasternak and Gordon Witkin

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---
| "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.|
| http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From tm at dev.null  Sun Nov 16 06:19:45 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:19:45 +0800
Subject: InfoWarriors - Alpha
Message-ID: <346EFDB9.3910@dev.null>

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From rdl at mit.edu  Sun Nov 16 06:48:12 1997
From: rdl at mit.edu (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:48:12 +0800
Subject: trusting untrusted platforms
Message-ID: <199711161443.JAA01554@tana.mit.edu>



> > Alexandre Maret <amaret at infomaniak.ch> says:

> > [how to do trusted computation on untrusted platforms]

I'm working on a paper, it's one of the technical hurdles on the way
to my Eternity DDS eternity service implementation.

> rdl, less frustrated with changing from vtwm/athena to KDE, says:

> I so far have been approaching it as "Type I (active)" and "Type II (passive)"
> attackers.  In the first case, people lie about the results, in the second,
> they give you the correct results, but snoop on the data. (For some reason
> the terminology is kind of lame, but it helps to have some)
> 
> There are a bunch of mathematical/cryptographic ways of hiding data from
> those doing computations on it, at least for a subset of computations.  I'm
> trying to put together a generalized computing model for this which would be
> turing complete if it can be, although it is not clear it can be.  Some
> operations practically will be a lot more expensive in this model than in
> the conventional environment, and perhaps to a computation which would require
> 10 units of conventional secret CPU time, you will need 9 units of secret
> CPU to encode/decode the data and 41 units of public CPU time.  You also need
> to guard against covert channels, such as the total amount of public CPU time
> you are requesting as a clue to what you're doing with it.  I am confident
> type II security can be realized with at least a minor amount of performance
> improvement over purely secret use, assuming public time is free.
> 
> Type I security is a lot more difficult to realize in true theoretical
> sense, but is easier in a practical sense.  A simple solution is to do the
> same computation on a bunch of different remote machines, and as long as
> they don't collude, you can just make sure they all answered the same, modulo
> rounding errors and stuff.  This isn't the kind of provable security you
> can conceivably get against type II attackers, but it doesn't have any innate
> performance hit.
> 
> It's possible there are systems which are byzantine fault tolerant to
> the former kind of attack -- instinctively, you can just split up the
> computation in small enough pieces that you don't care if it is compromised.
> 
> I'm interested in finding a provably secure computation-checksum technique.
> I think there are most likely reductions for a lot of problems to things
> which can be verified, and again, my goal is to have a Turing-complete
> model of computation with this property.
> 
> > [can cryptography be helpful?]
> 
> It's as much a theory of computation problem as anything else, once you
> have some functions through which you can carry some operations.  
> 
> Most of the stuff I've done so far focuses on the graph coloring problem.
> I'm probably going to finish a quick version which can only deal with
> a subset of problems, then work on a general model.

> > [paper availability issues]

> Yes, it will be publically available.  It will be available when it's closer
> to done; I will send something to cypherpunks about it, and I'll put it
> up on the web somewhere.  If it doesn't suck, and I can convince someone
> at LCS-CIS of this/to be a co-author/etc., I might try to get it published.

Anyone know anything very relevant to this?  I've mostly just started on
the research (my current exciting project has been Linux Fibre Channel and
making a bloody fast, yet maybe secure, yet small cipher for an on board
processor), and pointers would be useful.  It isn't as hard a problem as
I first thought, though.  This seems like the kind of thing everyone's favorite
judge-threatening tree-hugger-nose-mac-10-inserting gun-hoarding
old-man-on-the-mountain would have done N years ago :) [flames, fan.  
gasoline. rdx...] so I'd rather not reinvent the wheel more than once or twice.

Ryan (getting dangerously close to having a working Eternity DDS demo,
and wondering if FC98 will be on mbone, particularly the solar eclipse, since
even if he had the money to go, it's in the middle of next semester, and 
disappearing for a week would kind of be difficult, although not at all
impossible of someone wants to pay for me to go...ahh, but there's always
next year) 
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl at mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/		







From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov 16 06:53:48 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:53:48 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711161448.JAA12017@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/14/97 
   at 09:18 AM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>At 11:39 AM -0700 11/13/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>>Uk News:
>>
>>Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
>>Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
>>magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
>>The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights
>>activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause
>>of animal liberation.
>>
>>Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

>This stifling of free speech, by both state and corporate interests, is a
>trend spreadingl like wildfire in the Western world.

>Libel, slander, defamation, damage, incitement, sedition, and obscenity
>cases are squelching free speech. Publishers are held liable for the
>words of others, and even distributors are held liable.

>Even here on Cypherpunks we see toadies like Bob Hettinga fretting that
>our words are going too far, that we must learn to police ourselves or
>the police will be forced to do so.

>(Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his
>upheld, look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal
>charges.)

If anyone here needs a real world example of how fear and intimidation
have a stifling effect on free speech all one has to do is look at the
abandoned British subjects in Hong Kong (truly a dark day in this history
of UK). While China has done nothing yet to clamp down on speech in Hong
Kong self censorship is rampet their for fear of what they "might" do.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From maicagii34 at msn.com  Sun Nov 16 22:55:52 1997
From: maicagii34 at msn.com (DOPlan for You and Your Family)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:55:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dental/Optical Plan 2-3 Dollars a Week
Message-ID: <199711162352RAA52526@MAILSERVE.pilot.net>


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From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov 16 07:02:02 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:02:02 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <9711142104.AA49354@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <199711161451.JAA12050@users.invweb.net>

In <9711142104.AA49354 at public.uni-hamburg.de>, on 11/14/97 
   at 10:04 PM, ulf at fitug.de (Ulf M�ller) said:

>> If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
>> implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.

>I'm not implicitly condoning the ASCII art insultbot just because I
>ignore it.  Nor am I implicitly condoning William Geiger's posts when I
>don't read them.

Come on Ulf, your among friends you can admit it, late at night when no
one is looking you are reading my posts with joyfull glee. :)


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov 16 07:09:40 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:09:40 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711161505.KAA12279@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667 at anon.efga.org>, on 11/14/97 
   at 08:54 PM, Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> said:

>Tim May <tcmay at got.net> wrote:

>> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
>> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
>> >
>> 
>> It am developed.
>> 
>> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
>> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
>> 
>> Sayonara!
>> 
>> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)


>Paul Bradley <paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

>> As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
>> find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
>> not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

>Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?

>His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would you
>feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
>included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers?  That comment
>about kicking Japan's butt would really be humorous, wouldn't it?

>It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
>make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
>racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
>to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
>have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

>Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
>not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
>you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
>case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.


Exactly how do you equate everything negative that is said against Japan
as to being racist? I guess if I had said it about Germany then it would
have been ok?? I bet you are one of those skirt wearing liberals that shed
tears over nuking Japan as being evil but have no problems with the
firebombing of Dresdin.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From jjn43 at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 16 23:18:34 1997
From: jjn43 at ix.netcom.com (jjn43)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:18:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19943672.886214@relay.comanche.denmark.eu>


Authenticated sender is <jjn43 at ix.netcom.com>
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From spector at zeitgeist.com  Sun Nov 16 07:54:50 1997
From: spector at zeitgeist.com (David HM Spector)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:54:50 +0800
Subject: mini-review: The Electronic Privacy Papers
Message-ID: <199711161549.KAA17326@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>




This has got to be the "Book of the Year"...If you only read one book
before the end of the year, or even one book ALL of next year, this is
the book you MUST read:

		    The Electronic Privacy Papers
		  by Bruce Schneier and David Banisar
	  Wiley Computer Publishing/John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
			 ISBN: 0-471-12297-1

I just got it this morning, and cruised though the first chapters (I'm
a fast reader...) and its positively explosive.

The book consists of information gleaned from public sources and pried
out of the Government via the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) and
logically takes the reader through a chronological history of
government surveillance and public reactions to it.

Schneier and Banisar examine the arguments for and against state
surveillance and how these policies are formulated and how (from my
reading so far) they are often implemented with little or no public
discussion or input by agencies that seem to deeply distrust and
dislike the lawmaking process and constitutional protections that are
supposed to protect Americans from overzealous agents and Government
abuse.

Positively riveting....

For you Amazon.com junkies, here's the URL:

   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/9615-8912043-502933

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                          spector at zeitgeist.com
	         Network Design & Infrastructure Security











From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 16 07:56:11 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:56:11 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971115221801.006c1504@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <D9o0Fe41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Blanc <blancw at cnw.com> writes:

> As good crypto-anarchists, no one on this list should care what Tim's views
> are on race.   Your main concern should be a good defense against
> aggression;  if Tim hasn't taken any action to bring harm to others, then
> there's isn't any need to worry about his opinion.

Blanc, you're not getting it.

In the Klintonista kriminal kode, calling someone a "nigger" or even thinking
that some aspects of the "african-american kulture" (drug use, illegitimacy,
violence, unwillingness to work) are "inferior" are far worse krimes than
when a representatives of said kulture takes away your property (at gunpoint
or via taxation/welfare/wealth redistribution). When a black man kills a
white man for calling the black man "nigger", it's justifiable homicide.

Just having racist thoughts, let alone expessing them, is equivalent to
extreme violence. Remember the student who got suspended for a semester
for laughing while singing "We shall overcome"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov 16 08:02:27 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:02:27 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <199711150145.CAA24285@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711161558.KAA12925@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711150145.CAA24285 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/15/97 
   at 02:45 AM, Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> said:

>Paul Bradley writes:
>>Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
>>Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
>>magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
>>The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights
>>activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause
>>of animal liberation.
>>
>>Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

>Another example of the violent rhetoric which goes without comment on
>this list.

>The death penalty is completely inappropriate for this kind of crime. It
>should be reserved for the most serious of criminal actions, the most
>egregious murders, terrorism, genocide.

>An appropriate punishment for a judge who violates his oath of office and
>sentences someone wrongly to prison would be a prison sentence for the
>judge himself, some multiple of the unjust sentence.

>Calling for the death penalty for crimes which do not themselves involve
>killing only cheapens life.  Before long you too will support shooting
>graffiti vandals and nuking London.

Well I can't say much for the UK AFAIK they have no constitutional
protections of free speech. Here in Amerika any elected offical or
government employee found to have willfully violated the Constution of the
United States of America should be put to death.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cpickett2 at juno.com  Mon Nov 17 00:40:17 1997
From: cpickett2 at juno.com (cpickett2 at juno.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:40:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: as promised...
Message-ID: <199 7043 567 32.CIA 78890@juno.com>


Frank, 
check this one out today ( just don't let Jan know)
http://www.1on1xxx.com
check it out 
This is live sex !
They do what you tell them and they give you 5 MINUTES FREE
The Babes are excellent!!!
http://www.1on1xxx.com

See you on monday...
Carl






From jito at eccosys.com  Sun Nov 16 08:44:45 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:44:45 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan : Was Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <78ce81bf80f38ec4664ed8e4cdcd402f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711161635.BAA06329@eccosys.com>



At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn
> from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as
> an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges
> were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.
> 
> --Tim May

By the way, the chip was not "withdrawn from the market." MITI
has not approved its export. The imporant point is, a recent regulation
called the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" (translates roughly as,
"ministry administrative law/guidelines") makes it illegal for a ministry
to regulate or restrict an activity without a clear and easy to understand
process and documentation. MITI's current method of "case-by-case"
export permission could technically be viewed as a breach of this
law/regulation. Also, the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" has time limits
for ministries to respond to requests. I have informed RSA that they
could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't.
So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA
haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export
of their products from Japan.

Maybe we should try to get Mr. Nakatuji to apply for a permit to
export his Misty stuff. ;-P

 - Joi

P.S. We had a cypherpunks-j meeting the other day and no one
knew who this Nakatuji guy was. I thought he might be some anti-Japanese
person trying to discredit the Japanese cypherpunks, but another participant
pointed out that the curses he launched at Tim were very authentic
Japanese so my theory was unlikely. For the record, he is not one
of "us". Whatever that means...
--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From kent at songbird.com  Sun Nov 16 09:08:42 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:08:42 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971116085933.51526@songbird.com>



On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 02:38:48PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > > find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> > > not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> > 
> > Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?
> 
> It seems like something which has been blown out of all proportion by a 
> few over-zealous pinko-liberal members of the list who support free 
> speech right upto the point where someone says something which upsets 
> them, then they run crying to mommy or hide under the bed. 

So far as I know, there hasn't been a single post suggesting that 
Tim's freedom of speech be curtailed.  Nobody is running to mommy, or 
hiding under the bed.  And in the context of this list I have no idea 
what "over-zealous pinko liberal" means.

> Racist comments to me would be those that generalised the opinion to all 
> Japanese, Tim insulted one particular person.

I don't base my assessment of Tim on that single incident -- it's 
based on a history of his comments going back some time.  And I only 
bring it up now because others have.  

> If you are going to become
> oversensitive about such comments the cypherpunks list is probably the
> worst place to be.

I'm not oversensitive -- just stating the obvious to the oblivious.
It is an unfortunate fact that a large percentage of the population is
racist without even being aware of it, and, like you, vigorously deny
it.

> > His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
> > you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
> > included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers? 
> 
> No, because most people would misinterpret it in the same way you, and 
> some other list members have, if I could be assured they would understand 
> it as a light hearted mild insult rather than a racist remark I would 
> have no problem saying it in those circumstances.

Quit a few years ago I was at a Cray User Group meeting.  Mike Booth,
a very bright technical guy who realized where the money was, and was
transitioning to sales, was giving a presentation on an idea he had
that Cray was marketing as "Microtasking".  It was a very large hall;
there were probably 700 people in attendance, largely white male.  I
was sitting way in the back; I had already seen the presentation. 
Mike was describing how the processors find work: "It's like a Chinese
fire drill." A slight figure in the front, about the 15th row, stood
up and said something I couldn't hear.  Mike couldn't hear it either. 
He asked the individual to speak up.  The crowd was quiet, and a thin,
heavily accented voice floated over it: "Please not to use the term
'Chinese fire drill'".

I have come to appreciate the level of courage involved.  It's not
like spitting out obnoxious statements to a friendly crowd of toadies
on cypherpunks. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 16 09:09:16 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:09:16 +0800
Subject: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102822b094c86ba119@[207.167.93.63]>



At 7:38 AM -0700 11/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>If anyone here needs a real world example of how fear and intimidation
>have a stifling effect on free speech all one has to do is look at the
>abandoned British subjects in Hong Kong (truly a dark day in this history
>of UK). While China has done nothing yet to clamp down on speech in Hong
>Kong self censorship is rampet their for fear of what they "might" do.

William Burroughs warned of "the policeman inside."

(A variation of my "Big Brother Inside" logo might be "Policeman Inside."
Perhaps as many as one in ten thousand might catch the Burroughs reference.)

As Bob Hettinga, Kent Crispin, and other policemen inside are warning, if
we don't censor ourselves, if we don't narc out others, the real police
will have to do it for us. Welcome to the New World Order.

Of course, an alternative is to say "Fuck you" to those who want us to shut
up, to deploy more unbreakable crypto, to encourage more armed militias to
spring up, to destabilize the regimes in Hong Kong, Japan, and India, and
to "Just Say No" to backdoors in PGP and other crypto products. Bring on
crypto anarchy.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From mixmaster at as-node.jena.thur.de  Sun Nov 16 09:26:18 1997
From: mixmaster at as-node.jena.thur.de (Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:26:18 +0800
Subject: technical issues of the list
Message-ID: <m0xWxe3-0005TqC@as-node.jena.thur.de>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Issues:


1.  Robustness.  Usenet wins.
2.  Efficiency.  Usenet loses, but perhaps some kind of hack 
     could be implemented combining mail and news delivery for
     greater efficiency without losing robustness?  I'm not 
     familiar with NNTP.
3.  Access control.  Usenet is too easy to get in to.  We need
     to discourage clueless newbies from bothering us.  This 
     too could be hacked, e.g. set up a PGP cancel bot which
     only allows PGP signed posts.  (This has many other 
     convenient benefits such as encouraging nyms, and 
     preventing spam.)


Hm..  But people might worry that sigs could increase their
legal exposure, even if they use (less than perfectly strong) 
nyms.  So a good variation is to generate the canonical key 
pair and share the secret key around.  Hell, post the secret 
key once a week in the FAQ...  The cancel bot should allow
sigs by either that key or any arbitrary key.  Whoops!  Such
a cancel-bot undermines our goal of robustness..   HMMMmm.


Okay the best solution to signal/noise management is (as 
always) filtering at the reader's desk.  I don't read William 
H. Geiger III or Paul Bradley posts (usually), I don't read
anything Subject: "Make Money Fast", from "Graham-John 
Buellers" or containing "Timmy" in the first sentence, and if 
we switch to Usenet, I won't read articles posted by unknowns 
without PGP sigs.  There.  :-)



Regards,

Zooko

P.S.  I am not a crook.  Nor am I the anonymous who is so 
earnestly pleading for some sanity-checking around here, 
although I tend to agree with some of his points.

P.P.S.  Hi, Joichi Ito!  Nice to see some articles from the
Japanese chapter of The International Committee to Put The 
Bastards Up Against A Wall---  whoops-  I mean, the Japanese 
chapter of the Peace-Loving, Code-Writing, Money-Making 
Cypherpunks.


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Charset: noconv
Comment: http://www.c2.net/~bryce -- 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.01

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From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 16 09:32:28 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:32:28 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab092257910a1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:35 AM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
>At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn
>> from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as
>> an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges
>> were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.
>>
>> --Tim May
>
>By the way, the chip was not "withdrawn from the market." MITI
>has not approved its export. The imporant point is, a recent regulation
>called the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" (translates roughly as,
>"ministry administrative law/guidelines") makes it illegal for a ministry

This is, of course, a distinction without a difference. The point is that
NSA was very pissed off that Bidzos would hold up a Japanese chip in front
of Congress, thereby proving that export controls were hardly needed or
even relevant in today's world.

And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable." A
longterm Cypherpunk, who can speak up if he desires to, had a few of these
chips in the U.S. before the NSA ordered Chobetsu/MITI to halt export (and
probably even to halt internal use in products developed for export). He
told me the chips had suddenly become "unavailable," with no apparent
prospects for them _ever_ becoming available. The stooges in Nippon listen
when their masters speak.


>to regulate or restrict an activity without a clear and easy to understand
>process and documentation. MITI's current method of "case-by-case"
>export permission could technically be viewed as a breach of this
>law/regulation. Also, the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" has time limits
>for ministries to respond to requests. I have informed RSA that they
>could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't.
>So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA
>haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export
>of their products from Japan.

RSA the company may have various reasons for not pushing the issue too
hard. For one thing, pissing off the NSA (even more) may cut into business
contracts. For another, designing the Japanese chip into products could be
a dangerous thing, if the supply is uncertain (and winning one court battle
in Japan may not ensure continued supplies). Finally, recall that I
publically described threats by NSA agents to have Bidzos "run over in your
parking lot."

This is the way the Amerikan government works in this era of freedom. It
threatens to kill the chief executives of Amerikan companies who don't play
along with Big Brother's rules. It leans on allies like Japan and Germany
to crack down on crypto products. It ignores import and export laws at will
(as yesterday's "executive order" barring import of more rifles shows), and
it engages in New World Order/OECD/Wassenaar deal cuttings with other
tyrants. Oh, and it holds out the prospect of lucrative contracts to
Netscape, Intel, H-P, TIS, and other such companies if they "build in Big
Brother."


>Maybe we should try to get Mr. Nakatuji to apply for a permit to
>export his Misty stuff. ;-P
>
> - Joi
>
>P.S. We had a cypherpunks-j meeting the other day and no one
>knew who this Nakatuji guy was. I thought he might be some anti-Japanese
>person trying to discredit the Japanese cypherpunks, but another participant
>pointed out that the curses he launched at Tim were very authentic
>Japanese so my theory was unlikely. For the record, he is not one
>of "us". Whatever that means...

Yes, this fits my view that Nakatuji is either an American trolling the
list, or some "dark person" (in the Japanese hacker sense) connecting to
the Net with his "hotmail" account.

That his English is poor is not the real issue. There are plenty of people
with poor English skills. No, the issue is that he sends out short trolls,
first asking "what am Misty?," then offering to sell documentation on
crypto for money sent to him. And he never engages in discussion, broken
English or not.

I was quite serious when I said in a post a few months back that I'd done
some Web and Dejanews searches on his precise name string and had only
found some requests for "male pen pals." This is not a "homophobic" remark,
just a statement of what I found.

(I did the same search several days ago, as Nakatuji once again became news
here, and couldn't find any references at all to his exact name. Maybe the
sites or archives that carried his pen pal requests, if it was he and not
some other with the same name, had flushed this older stuff.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 16 09:46:37 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:46:37 +0800
Subject: Anti-Grav?
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b094261c9844@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v03102824b094d230eca7@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:57 PM -0700 11/15/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>I must have been sleeping, but it appears I missed the emergence of
>another Fleischman-Pons ("cold fusion") style episode, this time having to
>do with antigravity.  Experiments in 1992 in Finland seemed to show that
>the Earth's gravity could be shielded with a superconductor.  This
>experiment, by Eugene Podkletnov, at Finland's Tampere University of
>Technology, apparently displayed a reduction in the weight of objects
>placed above a levitating, rotating high Tc superconducting disk, exposed
>to high frequency magnetic fields.
>
>http://www.virtualpet.com/rbbi/folders/tech/basic/gravity.htm
>
>http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/gravity.html#pandb
>
>There are at least three different theoretical models for the effect --
>gravitomagnetism, local change to cosmological constant, and outright
>shielding.  Detractors have pointed to possible experimental errors as the
>cause for the apparent levitation.


Don't feel bad about not hearing about it....I only heard about it from
some friends this past summer. My first reaction was "say what?"

After looking at a summary of news reports, I was less than
enthusiastically interested any more.

(My hunch: eddy current effects)

An effect this important, requiring so little equipment, is confirmable in
a matter of days or weeks. That this report has been floating around--pun
intended--for more than several years, tells us somthing important.

Wake me up if it's actually confirmed. But don't wake me up just to tell me
the claims have been withdrawn.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 16 10:09:35 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:09:35 +0800
Subject: technical issues of the list
In-Reply-To: <m0xWxe3-0005TqC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Message-ID: <v03102825b094d42261b8@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:53 PM -0700 11/15/97, Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver (actually Zooko,
actually B.) wrote:

>Issues:
>
>
>1.  Robustness.  Usenet wins.
>2.  Efficiency.  Usenet loses, but perhaps some kind of hack
>     could be implemented combining mail and news delivery for
>     greater efficiency without losing robustness?  I'm not
>     familiar with NNTP.

Many mailing lists are now hosted on Web sites. (There's probably some
widely-available code for setting this up, as I'm seeing more and more of
these Web forums.)

A Web site for the list has certain advantages:

a. archiving becomes transparent

(There is, by the way, a project simmering along to put the 5 years of
Cypherpunks traffic on a Web site....)

b. Web sites can be mirrored around the world

(With some technical issues of latency, synchronization, and "lock time,"
e.g., what happens to articles posted to one site while another site is
being mirrored? I/O thrashing could become a problem. I don't know if much
work has been done on Web site mirroring when the sites are being updated
or changed many times an hour. It's a variant of the airline reservation
problems...I have to assume someone has solved this cleanly.)

c. Web sites can also carry ancillary stuff, like code for programs, long
documents, etc.

(I just added a 6.4 GB drive to my system for the astounding price of $440.
Even cheaper deals may exist.)

d. having all CP traffic on a Web site, organized by thread name, author,
date, etc., as such archived lists routinely seem to be, would make it easy
to generate "the Cypherpunks CD-ROM." Wouldn't it be great to have the 5
years' worth of traffic on a single CD-ROM? (Or two, or three, if that's
what it takes.)

e. Web sites are easily "distributed" just by having URL pointers.

And so on...

>3.  Access control.  Usenet is too easy to get in to.  We need
>     to discourage clueless newbies from bothering us.  This
>     too could be hacked, e.g. set up a PGP cancel bot which
>     only allows PGP signed posts.  (This has many other
>     convenient benefits such as encouraging nyms, and
>     preventing spam.)

I'm skeptical of this "speed bump" approach. After all, our current
subscription process hasn't exactly stopped clueless newbies from wandering
in, has it?

A better approach is to encourage wider participation, with individual
readers becoming merciless with their filters.

(I'd hate to lose my Eudora Pro filtering capabilities, but progress is
progress. And some of the browsers and whatnot can probably be set to mark
for "reputation capital" and the like. If not, this would be a good project
for someone to tackle.)

(More on this: We must avoid the kind of "centralized reputation registry"
that some architects seem to prefer. This defeats the whole idea of people
making their own choices. Something very decentralized, like the Web of
Trust. But even more so. I don't want my name in the data base saying whom
I want to read and whom I don't, unless as a piece of side information. If
this point is not clear, and there's interest in this whole project, I'll
elaborate in more detail.)


>Regards,
>
>Zooko
>

Glad to see B. posting on this topic.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 16 10:16:52 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:16:52 +0800
Subject: Nakatuji-san and Male PenPals
In-Reply-To: <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102826b094d9429605@[207.167.93.63]>



Someone sent this to me privately. I don't know why he didn't cc: the list.
But I'll respect his apparent wishes and excise any clues as to who he is.

At 10:37 AM -0700 11/16/97, xxxxxxxxx wrote:

>In <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/16/97
>   at 09:26 AM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:
>
>>(I did the same search several days ago, as Nakatuji once again became
>>news here, and couldn't find any references at all to his exact name.
>>Maybe the sites or archives that carried his pen pal requests, if it was
>>he and not some other with the same name, had flushed this older stuff.)
>
>Well I did some searching myself and the only thing I could find out side
>of the CP-Archives was the one post to the Einstein Male PenPal webpage
>using the e-mail address below.
>
>http://cuy.net/~einstein/local/malebook.html
>
>Nobuki Nakatuji <nn1332 at galaxynet.or.jp>
>
>Neither the addresses or the name showed anything up on Deja-News or any
>of the other search engines.


Yes! This was it! This was what I saw. Some crazy "Einstein Male PenPals"
stuff.

I have no idea why I couldn't find it again...must've used a slightly
different search engine, with a slightly different set of reachable nodes.

Here's the entry for "Nobuki Nakatuji":

My hobbies are playing guitar and listening music.
Nobuki Nakatuji <nn1332 at galaxynet.or.jp>
Takarazuka, Japan - Saturday, December 14, 1996 at 23:34:01 (EST)

Is this the same Nobuki Nakatuji asking for money  for descriptions of
crypto programs? ("What am Misty?"..."You send money, I send description")


--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 16 10:42:43 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:42:43 +0800
Subject: Please not to use the term
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971115143130.915B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102827b094dd278047@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:59 AM -0700 11/16/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Mike was describing how the processors find work: "It's like a Chinese
>fire drill." A slight figure in the front, about the 15th row, stood
>up and said something I couldn't hear.  Mike couldn't hear it either.
>He asked the individual to speak up.  The crowd was quiet, and a thin,
>heavily accented voice floated over it: "Please not to use the term
>'Chinese fire drill'".

"Please not to use the term 'welshing on a bet.'"

"Please not to use the term 'going Dutch.'"

"Please not to use the term 'Indian giver.'"

"Please not to use the term 'It's a black thing...you wouldn't understand.'"

"Please not to use the term 'Russian roulette.'"

"Please not to use the term 'scotch' for thrifty."

"Please not to use the term 'white men can't jump.'"

"Please not to use the term 'French kissing.'"

"Please not to use the term 'Polish' to modify another word."

"Please not to use the term 'Whopper.'"

And, my favorite,

"Please not to use the term 'Please not to use the term.'"

Get over it. Sit down and get over it.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 16 11:07:42 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:07:42 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <19971116085933.51526@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <9yX0Fe43w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Kent Crispin <kent at songbird.com> writes:
> I have come to appreciate the level of courage involved.  It's not
> like spitting out obnoxious statements to a friendly crowd of toadies
> on cypherpunks.

Are you calling me a Timmy May toady, Kent?  What have you been smoking?
I will fight for Timmy's freedom of speech even though I think he knows
very little about modern cryptography.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 16 11:07:43 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:07:43 +0800
Subject: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <v03102822b094c86ba119@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <R4X0Fe44w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May <tcmay at got.net> writes:
> up, to deploy more unbreakable crypto, to encourage more armed militias to
> spring up, to destabilize the regimes in Hong Kong, Japan, and India, and

And the U.S. too.  Death to the fascists!  Nuke Washington, DC!!!!1!1!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 16 11:12:00 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:12:00 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan : Was Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <199711161635.BAA06329@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <oPX0Fe42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Joichi Ito <jito at eccosys.com> writes:
[alleging that Jap MITI ministry is in violation of Japs' own laws]
>                                        I have informed RSA that they
> could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't.
> So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA
> haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export
> of their products from Japan.

So, an American company should seek redress in Jap courts against a branch
of the Jap gubmint violating Japs' own laws?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!1!!

Tell that to the American suckers who bought some Jap stock and tried to
attend Jap stockholder meetings and asked Jap courts to protect their
property rights as stockholders.  Do you remember that one, Ito-san?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From wabe at smart.net  Sun Nov 16 11:13:14 1997
From: wabe at smart.net (wabe)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:13:14 +0800
Subject: evolRe: What cypherpunks used to be
Message-ID: <01bcf27e$a115e8e0$737f61ce@dave>




ANONYMOUS said:
> evolve or die

Evolution requires death, by definition.  
_______________________________________
-wabe




From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 16 11:30:03 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:30:03 +0800
Subject: The Policeman Inside
Message-ID: <199711161926.UAA10741@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May says:
> Of course, an alternative is to say "Fuck you" to those who want us to shut
> up, to deploy more unbreakable crypto, to encourage more armed militias to
> spring up, to destabilize the regimes in Hong Kong, Japan, and India, and
> to "Just Say No" to backdoors in PGP and other crypto products. Bring on
> crypto anarchy.

Sounds like a good plan to me!

What do people think this nym is for?  Only nyms can trade with
impunity in the tax free cypherspace.

Amad3us

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 16 11:34:26 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:34:26 +0800
Subject: Nakatuji-san and Male PenPals
Message-ID: <199711161929.UAA11019@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> At 10:37 AM -0700 11/16/97, xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:
> >>(I did the same search several days ago, as Nakatuji once again became
> >>news here, and couldn't find any references at all to his exact name.
> >>Maybe the sites or archives that carried his pen pal requests, if it was
> >>he and not some other with the same name, had flushed this older stuff.)
> >
> >Well I did some searching myself and the only thing I could find out side
> >of the CP-Archives was the one post to the Einstein Male PenPal webpage
> >using the e-mail address below.
> >
> >http://cuy.net/~einstein/local/malebook.html
> >
> >Nobuki Nakatuji <nn1332 at galaxynet.or.jp>

> Is this the same Nobuki Nakatuji asking for money  for descriptions of
> crypto programs? ("What am Misty?"..."You send money, I send description")

ROTFL!

I look up all of the URLs in the InfoWar Chronicles sent
to the list and I was mystified as to why the one you
just mentioned (http://cuy.net/~einstein/local/malebook.html)
was linked to when I clicked on the word _extortion_.
Now it makes sense. Kinda. Maybe.

If you click on the highlighted text _terrorists steeped in 
extremism and political hatred_ it sends you to whithouse.gov.
When I get one of those chapters when I am too fucked up to
read I just read the highlighted text and see where it goes
and its usually pretty weird.
I wonder if Nobuki charges his _pen pals_ the same price as
he charges cypherpunks. ;P ($50 to have him _play Misty_
for us). ;P






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Nov 16 11:46:28 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:46:28 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971116194155.0071d8f4@pop.pipeline.com>



Dimitri,

Thanks for reposting Kent's slur of toads.

Where to begin defense of toadism? Why not with Toad,
(see from above) the mother of toads, the nodehome of thousands 
of Toadies, year after year, even now for few, until ... well, no 
need for that again.

How about the newly built To, the safehome of www.cpunks.

Toto? Maybe a stretch.

Request-Remailing-To:? Now, that's close family.

Reply to:

X-post to:

And forward to:

Come on, Kent, why deny the fundamental purpose of the Net:

Send to:
Spoof to:
Lie to:
Obnox to:
Joke to:

Friendly crowds of to-addicts.






From nobody at REPLAY.COMAmad3us  Sun Nov 16 12:05:48 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COMAmad3us (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:05:48 +0800
Subject: the art of fighting without fighting
Message-ID: <199711161959.UAA14136@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bruce Lee film.

Scene on a sailing ship headed for island where tournament
is to be held.

Thug karate type hassles Mr Lee, picking a fight.  Thug
asks: "so what kind of karate do you fight."  Mr Lee: "the
art of fighting without fighting."  Thug asks for fight.  Mr
Lee: "not here, on that island over there," points.  OK says
thug eagerly and climbs down into rowing boat.  Mr Lee
unties end of rope and hands to children playing, leaning
over edge of ship.  Thug screams obscenities from row boat,
trys to pull himself in but children threaten to let go of
rope.

Mr Lee walks off camera unperturbed with smug look.

Moral of story: fight smart.  That's what cypherpunks tactic
is.  Multiplies your efficacy.

Anonymous decries talk of violence on list.  Understand
anonymous, we are not the aggressors, we are the aggressed.
It is annoying being on the receiving end of aggression
especially where the aggressor is the local force monopoly
and you have no recourse.  Hence talk of nuking DC, and of
capital punishment for criminal government officials.  There
is certain poetic karmic value to these expressions of
annoyance.  Helps spread the dissatisfaction with
government.

However, the fact that criminal officials deserve punishment
does not mean that any of us are interested to actually
deliver that punishment.  There are more efficient methods
of utilising our available resources: write crypto code,
hasten crypto-anarchy.  Have the government collapse through
lack of funding, have it's power eroded.

Let's get to it.

Amad3us

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From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 16 12:37:28 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:37:28 +0800
Subject: the art of fighting without fighting
In-Reply-To: <199711161959.UAA14136@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102828b094f81bd564@[207.167.93.63]>



At 12:59 PM -0700 11/16/97, Amad3us wrote:

>Anonymous decries talk of violence on list.  Understand
>anonymous, we are not the aggressors, we are the aggressed.
>It is annoying being on the receiving end of aggression
>especially where the aggressor is the local force monopoly
>and you have no recourse.  Hence talk of nuking DC, and of
>capital punishment for criminal government officials.  There
>is certain poetic karmic value to these expressions of
>annoyance.  Helps spread the dissatisfaction with
>government.
>
>However, the fact that criminal officials deserve punishment
>does not mean that any of us are interested to actually
>deliver that punishment.  There are more efficient methods
>of utilising our available resources: write crypto code,
>hasten crypto-anarchy.  Have the government collapse through
>lack of funding, have it's power eroded.

 Just so.

Hettinga seems to think I am criminally liable in case some terrorist
decides to spend $10 million or so (the going rate, I hear) to buy a nuke
so that he can make me happy in my, Hettinga claims, "will no one rid me of
this city of pesitlence and vermin" entreaties.

"As if." (to quote the GenXers)

While I believe the odds are increasing that a nuclear or biological weapon
will be used against the centers of oppression--Washington, New York, Tel
Aviv, etc.--I certainly can't imagine any self-respecting member of Abu
Nidal's team, for example, spending this kind of bread just to make Tim May
happy.

But people like Hettinga and Crispin believe in guilt by viewpoint, and in
keeping quiet so as not to make the authorities mad.

Me, my actions have been to move away from "soft targets." Even in a major
nukewar with the Evil Empire, I'm 30 miles _south_ of the major targets in
Silicon Valley, like the Satellite Operations Center at Onizuka/Moffet in
Sunnyvale and Mountain View. (The famed "Blue Cube.") The Blue Cube is now
mirrored at Falcon AFB in Colorado, and may by now even be the main site
for satellite tracking.

Hint: Given the prevailing winds and jet stream in this part of the world,
and given the mountain range between my location and Silicon Valley, I'm
almost certainly completely safe. Except from the aftereffects of a
nukewar, namely, human vermin spreading out through the mountain passes
trying to steal what they can. Hence my "other measures."

A bio weapon is more troublesome, where I am, but I doubt any CBW agent
could have toxicity to cover even those of us in fairly isolated ocean
valleys.

I expect one day to hear that some major world capital has been nuked or
devastated with botulinin toxin. I doubt I'll be crying.

(Hettinga plans to call the cops because of this comment.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 16 12:53:49 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:53:49 +0800
Subject: Please not to use the term
In-Reply-To: <v03102827b094dd278047@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <k140Fe46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Timmy May <tcmay at got.net> writes:
> "Please not to use the term 'Russian roulette.'"

Russian roulette was invented by the Russian poem Lermontov, who
also had some unkind things to say abotu Armenians (sorry, Ray).

What about "Russian leather" and "black Russian"?

"Please not to use Russian leather when binding books".

Or is it, "Please to use, but to call something vegetarian."

Russians also invented baseball (called "lapta" in Russian).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From kent at songbird.com  Sun Nov 16 13:25:18 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 05:25:18 +0800
Subject: the art of fighting without fighting
In-Reply-To: <199711161959.UAA14136@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971116131753.23782@songbird.com>



On Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 12:33:59PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> But people like Hettinga and Crispin believe in guilt by viewpoint,

Coming from you this is truly funny statement.

> and in keeping quiet so as not to make the authorities mad.

??Don't believe I ever said anything to that effect...

> Me, my actions have been to move away from "soft targets." 

You're a dead man regardless, Tim, as are we all. It's just a matter of
time. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From emc at wire.insync.net  Sun Nov 16 14:30:33 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 06:30:33 +0800
Subject: Politically Correct Riding Hood
Message-ID: <199711162222.QAA29767@wire.insync.net>



Author Unknown (to me at least) but it fits in well with our current
discussion of how not to offend various minority groups.
 
-----
 
There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived
on the edge of a large forest full of endangered owls and rare plants
that would probably provide a cure for cancer if only someone took the
time to study them.
 
Red Riding Hood lived with a nurture giver whom she sometimes referred
to as "mother," although she didn't mean to imply by this term that
she would have thought less of the person if a close biological link
did not in fact exist.
 
Nor did she intend to denigrate the equal value of non traditional
households, although she was sorry if this was the impression
conveyed.
 
One day her mother asked her to take a basket of organically grown
fruit and mineral water to her grandmother's house.
 
"But mother, won't this be stealing work from the unionized people who
have struggled for years to earn the right to carry all packages
between various people in the woods?"
 
Red Riding Hood's mother assured her that she had called the union
boss and gotten a special compassionate mission exemption form.
 
"But mother, aren't you oppressing me by ordering me to do this?"
 
Red Riding Hood's mother pointed out that it was impossible for womyn
to oppress each other, since all womyn were equally oppressed until
all womyn were free.
 
"But mother, then shouldn't you have my brother carry the basket,
since he's an oppressor, and should learn what it's like to be
oppressed?"
 
And Red Riding Hood's mother explained that her brother was attending
a special rally for animal rights, and besides, this wasn't
stereotypical womyn's work, but an empowering deed that would help
engender a feeling of community.
 
"But won't I be oppressing Grandma, by implying that she's sick and
hence unable to independently further her own selfhood?"
 
But Red Riding Hood's mother explained that her grandmother wasn't
actually sick or incapacitated or mentally handicapped in any way,
although that was not to imply that any of these conditions were
inferior to what some people called "health".
 
Thus Red Riding Hood felt that she could get behind the idea of
delivering the basket to her grandmother, and so she set off.
 
Many people believed that the forest was a foreboding and dangerous
place, but Red Riding Hood knew that this was an irrational fear based
on cultural paradigms instilled by a patriarchal society that regarded
the natural world as an exploitable resource, and hence believed that
natural predators were in fact intolerable competitors.
 
Other people avoided the woods for fear of thieves and deviants, but
Red Riding Hood felt that in a truly classless society all
marginalized peoples would be able to "come out" of the woods and be
accepted as valid lifestyle role models.
 
On her way to Grandma's house, Red Riding Hood passed a woodchopper,
and wandered off the path, in order to examine some flowers.
 
She was startled to find herself standing before a Wolf, who asked her
what was in her basket.
 
Red Riding Hood's teacher had warned her never to talk to strangers,
but she was confident in taking control of her own budding sexuality,
and chose to dialogue with the Wolf.
 
She replied, "I am taking my Grandmother some healthful snacks in a
gesture of solidarity."
 
The Wolf said, "You know, my dear, it isn't safe for a little girl to
walk through these woods alone."
 
Red Riding Hood said, "I find your sexist remark offensive in the
extreme, but I will ignore it because of your traditional status as an
outcast from society, the stress of which has caused you to develop an
alternative and yet entirely valid world view. Now, if you'll excuse
me, I would prefer to be on my way."
 
Red Riding Hood returned to the main path, and proceeded towards her
Grandmother's house.
 
But because his status outside society had freed him from slavish
adherence to linear, Western-style thought, the Wolf knew of a quicker
route to Grandma's house.
 
He burst into the house and ate Grandma, a course of action
affirmative of his nature as a predator.
 
Then, unhampered by rigid, traditionalist gender role notions, he put
on Grandma's nightclothes, crawled under the bedclothes, and awaited
developments.
 
Red Riding Hood entered the cottage and said,
 
"Grandma, I have brought you some cruelty free snacks to salute you in
your role of wise and nurturing matriarch."
 
The Wolf said softly "Come closer, child, so that I might see you."
 
Red Riding Hood said, "Goddess! Grandma, what big eyes you have!"
 
"You forget that I am optically challenged."
 
"And Grandma, what an enormous, what a fine nose you have."
 
"Naturally, I could have had it fixed to help my acting career, but I
didn't give in to such societal pressures, my child."
 
"And Grandma, what very big, sharp teeth you have!"
 
The Wolf could not take any more of these specist slurs, and, in a
reaction appropriate for his accustomed milieu, he leaped out of bed,
grabbed Little Red Riding Hood, and opened his jaws so wide that she
could see her poor Grandmother cowering in his belly.
 
"Aren't you forgetting something?" Red Riding Hood bravely shouted.
"You must request my permission before proceeding to a new level of
intimacy!"
 
The Wolf was so startled by this statement that he loosened his grasp
on her. At the same time, the woodchopper burst into the cottage,
brandishing an ax.
 
"Hands off!" cried the woodchopper.
 
"And what do you think you're doing?" cried Little Red Riding Hood.
"If I let you help me now, I would be expressing a lack of confidence
in my own abilities, which would lead to poor self esteem and lower
achievement scores on college entrance exams."
 
"Last chance, sister! Get your hands off that endangered species! This
is an FBI sting!" screamed the woodchopper, and when Little Red Riding
Hood nonetheless made a sudden motion, he sliced off her head.
 
"Thank goodness you got here in time," said the Wolf. "The brat and
her grandmother lured me in here. I thought I was a goner."
 
"No, I think I'm the real victim here," said the woodchopper. "I've
been dealing with my anger ever since I saw her picking those
protected flowers earlier. And now I'm going to have such a trauma. Do
you have any aspirin?"
 
"Sure," said the Wolf.
 
"Thanks."
 
"I feel your pain," said the Wolf, and he patted the woodchopper on
his firm, well padded ass, gave a little belch, and said, "Do you have
any Maalox?"

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 16 15:19:56 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:19:56 +0800
Subject: Politically Correct Riding Hood
In-Reply-To: <199711162222.QAA29767@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <XNaage47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Eric Cordian <emc at wire.insync.net> writes:
>
> Author Unknown (to me at least) but it fits in well with our current
> discussion of how not to offend various minority groups.
>
> -----
>
> There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived
...

This is the first story in a very funny little book called _Politically Correct
Bedtime Stories: Modern Tales for Our Life & Times_ by james Finn Garner,
Macmillann, ISBN 0-02-542730-X, *** (C) 1994 by James Finn Garner ***.

I also have his _Once Upon a More Enlightened Time: More Politically Correct
Bedtime Stories_, Macmillan, ISBN 0-02-860419-9.  Both highly recommended.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From jito at eccosys.com  Sun Nov 16 15:49:43 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:49:43 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711161635.BAA06329@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711162343.IAA12079@eccosys.com>



At 09:26 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 9:35 AM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> >At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable." A
> longterm Cypherpunk, who can speak up if he desires to, had a few of these
> chips in the U.S. before the NSA ordered Chobetsu/MITI to halt export (and
> probably even to halt internal use in products developed for export). He
> told me the chips had suddenly become "unavailable," with no apparent
> prospects for them _ever_ becoming available. The stooges in Nippon listen
> when their masters speak.

It was for this longterm Cypherpunk that I looked into the RSA export
issue and gave them the recommendation. It is likely that some pressure
from the US government is being put on Japanese ministries such as MITI,
but there are certain government agencies that aren't as exposed to US
pressure
who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu"
that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the
"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often
rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
current
RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to
receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for
the
benefit of some of the lurkers, I think it's worth it...) My point is, you
are probably
right that there is some activity by groups like the NSA putting pressure on
exposed parts of Japanese government to stifle export of crypto. But... the
current Japanese government is not as organized as you might think and
there are many different groups with different opinions. I don't think it is
necessary to write off all Japanese as stooges. Also, I disagree that there
is "no apparent prospects for them _ever_ becoming available." This is not
true. There is quite a bit a dialog going on in Japan about US pressure on
Japan, US "information imperialism" and about those groups within Japan
who are listen to the US. Some of the Japanese who have been speaking up
against US policy have begun being labeled as "right-wing nationalists".
(Which is probably better protection in Japan than being called a "left-wing
liberal.") In any case, there is a fight going on inside Japan which isn't
just
a show. So much of what you are saying is true in a general sense, but there
are still a lot of unresolved issues in Japan worth fighting for if anyone
is interested in looking into the detail. I personally think that the
impact of
Japan's actions is great enough so that it might be worth engaging rather
than just writing us off.

> >to regulate or restrict an activity without a clear and easy to understand
> >process and documentation. MITI's current method of "case-by-case"
> >export permission could technically be viewed as a breach of this
> >law/regulation. Also, the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" has time limits
> >for ministries to respond to requests. I have informed RSA that they
> >could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't.
> >So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA
> >haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export
> >of their products from Japan.
> 
> RSA the company may have various reasons for not pushing the issue too
> hard. For one thing, pissing off the NSA (even more) may cut into business
> contracts. For another, designing the Japanese chip into products could be
> a dangerous thing, if the supply is uncertain (and winning one court battle
> in Japan may not ensure continued supplies). Finally, recall that I
> publically described threats by NSA agents to have Bidzos "run over in your
> parking lot."

Well, I can understand that Mr. Bidzos doesn't want to get run over in
the parking lot, but don't you think strong crypto for the world is more
important? Why doesn't he buy a gun and sue MITI. ;-P

- Joi

P.S. I can already see this message going down in a flurry a flames.
Although I'm getting used to ignoring irrelevant messages and taking
cheap shots at Tim when I have the chance, I'm still not sure if the risk
of engaging in dialog "out in the open" is worth the net reputation
capital earned after all of the mud is slung. Also, I'm not sure whether
giving away all of my tactics just to win an arguement is worth it.
Maybe it is better to save those rounds for the real fight. My point is,
if people on this list are really going to do anything about crypto
I'll continue to weather the attacks and engage in dialog with you.
If the point of this list is to just beat each other up and talk about how
bad it all is, then I'm going to give up.

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 16 15:59:56 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:59:56 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711162350.AAA16143@basement.replay.com>



The DEA announced friday that doctors in Oregon that participate in doctor assisted suicides will have their licence to prescribe drugs revoked. Since when did the DEA gestapo obtain the power to regulate physician's rights to prescribe the drugs their patients need? But more important is the realization that the thugs in DC now consider our votes null and void, the _people_ of Oregon voted to allow assisted suicide, TWICE, I thought this was a government _of_ the people? In Arizona, the people voted to allow doctor prescribed marijuana for those that the doctors thought it would help relieve their pain, the governor of that state the morning after the vote declared the people of Arizona were stupid and he would block implementation of the law, what the fuck are these hicks voting for don't they read the pabulum we spoon feed them day after day about the dangers of drugs?

The Kent Crispins of the world wake up, voting is a waste of time, the bastards only allow us to vote for Moe, Curly, or Larry, all of the same union of thugs, some assigned to the Republican party, some assigned to the Democratic party, soon even that fig leaf of democracy will be discarded and the maximum leader will tell us it is necessary for national security reasons to suspend voting on our leaders.

Lock and Load? No I dont think so, it is pointless, go out get drunk, screw anybody that will consent, have a good time, the chains will soon clamp on your neck.

Amerika love it or leave it.






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 16 16:12:58 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:12:58 +0800
Subject: evolRe: What cypherpunks used to be
In-Reply-To: <01bcf27e$a115e8e0$737f61ce@dave>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116130115.007134ec@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 02:58 AM 11/16/1997 -0800, wabe wrote:
>ANONYMOUS said:
>> evolve or die
>
>Evolution requires death, by definition.  

No - it requires different reproduction rates.
If the old population hangs around without dying, 
or reproduction works by splitting, that's fine.
Seems to have happened to the list....
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From jito at eccosys.com  Sun Nov 16 16:13:56 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:13:56 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan : Was Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <199711161635.BAA06329@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711170007.JAA12138@eccosys.com>



At 13:11 97/11/16 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tell that to the American suckers who bought some Jap stock and tried to
> attend Jap stockholder meetings and asked Jap courts to protect their
> property rights as stockholders.  Do you remember that one, Ito-san?

Yes. That was the Kubota/Pickens case. My lawyer represented the US
side. He lost. That doesn't mean it wasn't worth trying.

Anyway, I responded to your message for the benefit of the other members
of the list.

Go ahead and flame away Vulis. Being called a moron by you is a
compliment. ;-P Your reputation is so low that I don't care what you say
about me or what your think for that matter.

 - Joi

Administrative note: This will probably be the last Vulis message I will
ever respond to or refer to.

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 16 16:17:00 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:17:00 +0800
Subject: RAM disks for temp files?
In-Reply-To: <199711160027.BAA16314@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116125402.007134ec@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 01:27 AM 11/16/1997 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>> (Hint, temporary files all over the place.)
>  For you old farts who have not been out in the real world for a
>while, you should make note of the fact that the price of memory
>has dropped, and it is now feasible to implement RAM disks to
>store temporary files.

I was using RAM disks on my 386 machines with Win3.1.
Now that I've got faster machines with more RAM,
I'm running Win95 and can't find a ramdisk program - 
does anybody know where to find one?

On Unix, you _could_ do things with temp files,
but it usually made much more sense to structure your programs
to use pipes, which means there's no temp file and only
a few KB of RAM buffering in between each program.
PGP's DOS heritage doesn't encourage this sort of programming,
though the new design for one-pass processing may have
made it either possible or unnecessary.

On machines with real operating systems, designing a 
ramdisk includes deciding whether to make it virtual memory
that might get swapped if necessary, or nail it into RAM.
Since RAMdisks are usually intended for increasing speed,
it usually makes more sense to let the vm manager decide
what pages to page out and what pages not to,
but obviously if you're using it for security that's different.

SunOS had the /tmpfs file system design which let you
get hybrid behavior - temp files stay in RAM until
they need to get swapped out to disk, and most programs
delete them before that ever happens - really speeds up compiles.
>From a cryptographic standpoint, it's not ideal, since occasionally
your files would end up on disk, but they'd usually be safe.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From dvandom at pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu  Sun Nov 16 16:32:41 1997
From: dvandom at pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:32:41 +0800
Subject: Naziworld
In-Reply-To: <346EF434.4C3F@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711170022.TAA27688@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>



Which link?  And which Naziworld are you referring to?  There's lots out
there in comics, fiction and gaming.

     Dave






From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 16 16:35:21 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:35:21 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0952d88bc56@[207.167.93.63]>



At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu"
>that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the
>"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often
>rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
>going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
>current

My first knowledge of Chobetsu came from noted intelligence expert Jeffery
Richelson's book on intelligence agencies. Also, as I noted some months
back, various Web sources cite it. As to the spelling, I'm using
Richelson's. He cites Chobetsu's role in various NSA-like activities.

(And I recall Seymour Hersh, in "Shootdown," describing some of the SIGINT
and COMINT functions of this and other agencies.)

My strong suspicion is that Japanese journalists and source are NOT the
best place to learn about Japanese SIGINT and COMINT capabilities. Not hard
to see some reasons for this.


>RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
>kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to
>receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for
>the
>benefit of some of the lurkers, I think it's worth it...) My point is, you
>are probably
>right that there is some activity by groups like the NSA putting pressure on
>exposed parts of Japanese government to stifle export of crypto. But... the
>current Japanese government is not as organized as you might think and
>there are many different groups with different opinions. I don't think it is

Aside from these issues of whether they're as organized as you think I
think they are, all that matters is how quickly they yanked the RSA chip
after Bidzos held it up before Congress.



>is interested in looking into the detail. I personally think that the
>impact of
>Japan's actions is great enough so that it might be worth engaging rather
>than just writing us off.

Oh, OK. I'll "engage" and not just write Japan off.

Please notify me, and us, of the forums where these engagements are
occurring. For starters, how about some e-mail addresses of cabinet
ministers and other officials.


>P.S. I can already see this message going down in a flurry a flames.
>Although I'm getting used to ignoring irrelevant messages and taking
>cheap shots at Tim when I have the chance, I'm still not sure if the risk
>of engaging in dialog "out in the open" is worth the net reputation
>capital earned after all of the mud is slung. Also, I'm not sure whether
>giving away all of my tactics just to win an arguement is worth it.
>Maybe it is better to save those rounds for the real fight. My point is,
>if people on this list are really going to do anything about crypto
>I'll continue to weather the attacks and engage in dialog with you.
>If the point of this list is to just beat each other up and talk about how
>bad it all is, then I'm going to give up.

This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too
sensitive to engage in robust debate.

Frankly, I've seen no mentions in the American press, let alone the
Japanese press, about how Japan caved in to U.S. pressures. (There may have
been some minor mentions in the U.S. press, but they had little impact.)

So, Joichi, why don't you stir the shit on this one? And I don't mean with
"constructive engagement." That's a synonym for inaction.

Point out to your Japanese readers the nefarious role the NSA is playing,
the role of the U.S. spy facilities in Misakawa Air Force Base, where the
NSA and its military liason offices, intercept the communications of
Toshiba, Fujitsu, Hitachi, NEC, and so on and feed them, selectively, to
U.S. COMINT consumers. (Why Japan and Germany allow U.S. SIGINT facilities
in their own territory is a mystery to me...must be some nice payoffs to
senior officials.)

Declare war on the NSA. You've several times trumpetted the Japanese
Constitution as supporting basic rights even more than the Amerikan
Constitution does, so this is your chance to say "Fuck the National
Security State."

Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia could
use it right now.

(No, this is not a joke. I favor full availability of any and all drugs to
anyone who wants them. This makes the Triads and Yakuza allies in defeating
the New World Order. The ComSec 3DES phones are a step in defeating the
DEA, Interpol, and other police state agencies, but the RSA chip would make
a lot of such things much more interesting.)

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From schear at lvdi.net  Sun Nov 16 16:36:44 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:36:44 +0800
Subject: Citizenship, soverignty and insular areas
Message-ID: <v03102802b0952c4c31a1@[208.129.55.202]>

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From schear at lvdi.net  Sun Nov 16 16:36:54 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:36:54 +0800
Subject: mini-review: The Electronic Privacy Papers
In-Reply-To: <199711161549.KAA17326@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b09520dd8206@[208.129.55.202]>



At 10:49 AM -0500 11/16/1997, David HM Spector wrote:
>This has got to be the "Book of the Year"...If you only read one book
>before the end of the year, or even one book ALL of next year, this is
>the book you MUST read:
>
>		    The Electronic Privacy Papers
>		  by Bruce Schneier and David Banisar
>	  Wiley Computer Publishing/John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
>			 ISBN: 0-471-12297-1
>
>For you Amazon.com junkies, here's the URL:
>
>   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/9615-8912043-502933

Amazon has it on 3-5 week back order :-(

--Steve







From schear at lvdi.net  Sun Nov 16 16:37:40 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:37:40 +0800
Subject: House Panel Questions FBI Implementation of Wiretap Law
Message-ID: <v03102803b09534dc34a1@[208.129.55.202]>



I doubt any of these revelations will come as a shock to list members.

--Steve

------------------

Excerpt from ACLU News 10-26-97

House Panel Questions FBI Implementation of Wiretap Law

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Thursday, October 23, 1997

WASHINGTON -- Amid growing concerns about privacy implications and
costs, a House subcommittee today questioned FBI implementation of a
controversial 1994 law that forced telephone companies help law
enforcement agencies gain access to digital phone lines for
surveillance operations.

During the four-hour hearing before the Crime Subcommittee of the House
Judiciary Committee, two Republicans -- Bob Barr of Georgia and Steve
Chabot of Ohio -- were harshly critical of the 1994 law, has
implemented it, saying it represents an enormous invasion of privacy
and could lead to a system of ongoing government surveillance.

Seconding those criticisms, the American Civil Liberties Union said
that safeguards originally implemented in the legislation have failed
to protect the American public. "The hearing today clearly revealed
that the FBI is embarked on a scheme to undermine the privacy of every
law-abiding American," said Donald Haines, a Legislative Counsel with
the ACLU's Washington National Office.

"From the very beginning, the FBI has flagrantly violated both the
process and the requirements set out in the legislation," Haines
added.  "The FBI has repeatedly sought to coerce the telecommunications
industry into changing its technology so that law enforcement agencies
could increase their wiretapping."

The 1994 telecommunications act is far from the only effort by the FBI
to gain backdoor access to private communications. In another ongoing
Congressional debate, the FBI is trying to impose restrictions on the
use of privacy-protecting encryption technology.

"Congress must squarely confront this persistent pattern of FBI and law
enforcement intrusions into our privacy," Haines said. "Congress should
act immediately to repeal the 1994 law, or, at an absolute minimum,
refuse to fund any implementation activities."








From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 16 16:43:51 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:43:51 +0800
Subject: Licensing, Guilds, Rent-Seeking, and the Shakedown State
In-Reply-To: <199711162350.AAA16143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b09532f40293@[207.167.93.63]>



At 4:50 PM -0700 11/16/97, Anonymous wrote:
>The DEA announced friday that doctors in Oregon that participate in doctor
>assisted suicides will have their licence to prescribe drugs revoked.
>Since when did the DEA gestapo obtain the power to regulate physician's
>rights to prescribe the drugs their patients need? But more important is
>the realization that the thugs in

This has happened before, of course. A case in Virginia got a lot of
attention not too long ago, e.g., on "60 Minutes." And here in California,
where voters also passed a "medical use of marijuana" proposition,
Washington is threatening revocation of doctor's licenses.

There are obviously some major "states rights" issues here, and there may
be some Supreme Court cases coming down the pike.

A larger issue, one at a meta-level, is where "licensing" of _any_
profession or career comes from. How can some professions require licenses?
Where does this authority come from? And what are the roles of ostensibly
private organizations like the American Medical Association and the
American Bar Association  in the administration and granting of such
licenses?

(Long-time readers should of course know my views, that these entities are
essentially modern versions of "guilds." Hardly a position original with
me. But a disturbing trend, as more and more fields arrange for licensing.
Economists call this "rent-seeking." The American Aptical Foddering
Association sets themselves up as the arbiters of who can be an Aptical
Fodderer, and rigs a deal with the police state to arrest and jail anyone
who "practices aptical foddering without a license." A shakedown state.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Nov 16 17:09:25 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:09:25 +0800
Subject: The Electronic Privacy Papers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971117010344.0075186c@pop.pipeline.com>



Thanks to David Spector's praise and pointer for:

   "The Electronic Privacy Papers: Documents on the 
   Battle for Privacy in the Age of Surveillance"

   by Bruce Schneier and David Banisar

we offer its 10-page detailed TOC, foreword, preface and epilog:

   http://jya.com/tepp.htm  (49K)

The 747-page volume is an excellent read and rich resource of once secret 
documents, legislation, regulations, letters, memos, names, events, policies,
opinions and disputes of the surveillance age and crypto battles. Subscribers
to this list are amply represented.

In addition to the Amazon URL provided by David:

   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/9615-8912043-502933

Bruce offers a 15% discount off the $60 price at:

   http://www.counterpane.com/privacy.html

B&N sells it in Manhattan for $39.95, hardcover.







From dabi-do at juno.com  Sun Nov 16 18:34:30 1997
From: dabi-do at juno.com (Six 6 Six)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:34:30 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab092257910a1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971116.212452.9166.0.dabi-do@juno.com>



To Mr. May and Jito-san and all fellow and aspiring Cypherpunks:

	The future of technological products threatened by bureaucratic
and restrictive governmental interests
may lie in the proven business powers of the black market and its related
syndicates.


Dabi-do
dabi-do at juno.com






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 16 18:39:59 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:39:59 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116182648.00706d44@popd.ix.netcom.com>



[I'm also posting this to coderpunks, but cypherpunks is probably 
a better place for discussions.]

At 10:13 PM 11/15/1997 -0800, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 1:06 AM -0800 11/15/97, phelix at vallnet.com wrote:
>>Well, PGP has come to it's senses and is allowing non-commercial 
>>developers to use the sdk for free.  I didn't notice anything too
>>ominous in the license agreement, and they promise a new 
>>licensing/prices for shareware and small commercial developers.
>>
>>Perhaps nobody is buying the sdk at it's current highly 
>>inflated licensing price.
>
>Much more likely is that more than a few cypherpunks discussed 
>the issue with PRZ at the last SF Bay Area Physical meeting, 
>and that discussion is bearing fruit.

I'm pleased to see PGP Inc. permitting development of freeware,
but at leased from a first reading of the license, 
it's a _really_ restrictive definition of "freeware" - 
not only does the software have to be free, but it can only be used 
in extremely restrictively non-commercial activities.
It's far more restrictive than RSAREF (though more precisely defined.)
Here's an excerpt from the web page at
	http://www.pgp.com/sdk/sdklicencefree.html
	For purposes hereof, the term "non-commercial" shall mean that
	the application 
	(a) has been distributed or otherwise made available at no charge 
	(direct or indirect) and 
	(b) is not used for any commercial purpose, which includes, 
	but is not limited to, any activity engaged for the purpose 
	of generating revenues (directly or indirectly). 
	For example, a commercial purpose includes the use of the 
	application within a commercial business or facility or 
	the use of the product to provide a service, or in support 
	of service, for which you charge. 
	Commercial purpose also includes use by any government agency
	or organization. 
	Examples of non-commercial purposes include use 
	at home for personal correspondence, 
	use by students for academic activities, 
	or use by human rights organizations. 

First of all, it sounds like it can only be used by students at
non-government-run universities, but not at Berkeley, and if
Random MIT Student develops PGPwidget using the toolkit,
students at U.C.Berkeley can't use it for academic use either,
except perhaps on their PCs at home (if they live off-campus.)
(Do any of the UK universities count as non-government-run?)

But "within a commercial business or facility" is far more 
restrictive.  
I use a laptop for my home and work email, and carry it around.
It sounds like I can't use PGPwidget or PGPsdk for encrypting 
personal email at lunchtime when my laptop is at the office,
and perhaps not from a hotel (at least if I'm there on business)?
I probably can't start PGPwidget at home and leave it running
when I carry the laptop to work.  I probably can't use PGPwidget
when I'm reading my work email at home, though perhaps it's ok
to use it on personal mail that someone sent to my work MSExchange,
assuming it's not a widget that competes with a PGP product.

This is frustrating - today, I can use PGP 2.6.2, and maybe 5.0,
at work, though I can't sell it without a license, and it's
not very clear whether I can run a commercial service without
a license (I probably need a license from RSA, but not PGP,
and non-RSA keys probably don't require that.)  And I can certainly
write programs that use PGP command-line interfaces to 
encrypt things without any restrictions on my code.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From dabi-do at juno.com  Sun Nov 16 18:45:21 1997
From: dabi-do at juno.com (Six 6 Six)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:45:21 +0800
Subject: Apologies to Joichi Ito
Message-ID: <19971116.213654.9166.1.dabi-do@juno.com>



Mr. Ito:

	Apologies for misspelling your surname.  Ito-san was what I had
in mind.

Dabi-do
dabi-do at juno.com






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 16 18:46:04 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:46:04 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
Message-ID: <19971117023732.14581.qmail@hotmail.com>



Do you readJapanese import & export law book?
If you don't read at yet,You must read it.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 16 18:46:18 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:46:18 +0800
Subject: Digital Revolution!
Message-ID: <199711170236.DAA14301@basement.replay.com>



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	This message has gone to everyone in the world with a
	computer, and we are asking you to go to the homes and
	businesses of ten people you know, and delete it.
		~~~ IMPORTANT NOTE ~~~

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From shamrock at netcom.com  Sun Nov 16 18:59:35 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:59:35 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <v0311072bb0943f37b4d6@[207.94.250.122]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971116185328.006d9ca8@netcom12.netcom.com>



At 06:25 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>I'm pleased to see PGP Inc. permitting development of freeware,
>but at leased from a first reading of the license, 
>it's a _really_ restrictive definition of "freeware" - 
>not only does the software have to be free, but it can only be used 
>in extremely restrictively non-commercial activities.

The idea is simple: you make money from software that costs the authors
lots of money to develop or use their software in a business environment
(=to make money), you have to pay the people that spent time, effort, and,
yes, money, on making it happen.

Sounds reasonable to me.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock at netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi






From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Nov 16 19:11:54 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:11:54 +0800
Subject: Email Interception Information
In-Reply-To: <346E77AA.70F7@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971116192306.6417E-100000@bureau42.ml.org>



Is it a good sign or a bad sign when you start appearing as a spoofgram from
somewhere in Canada?  (This isn't me, but it's an above-average forgery. :)

dave

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, David E. Smith wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:33:46 -0600
> From: "David E. Smith" <dave at bureau42.ml.org>
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> To: Ann Oy <annoy at innocent.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: Email Interception Information
> 
> Ann Oy wrote:
> >
> 
> Ann,
>   The correct address for the Information Server at Sympatico is:
> Information Server <ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca>
>   Use a subject header of "Help" and put "email security" in the
> message body.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 

--

Today's pseudorandom quote:
`Nineteen Eighty-Four' was a warning, not a blueprint!

David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 16 19:35:14 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:35:14 +0800
Subject: Apologies to Joichi Ito
In-Reply-To: <19971116.213654.9166.1.dabi-do@juno.com>
Message-ID: <iTmage3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



dabi-do at juno.com (Six 6 Six) writes:

>
> Mr. Ito:
>
> 	Apologies for misspelling your surname.  Ito-san was what I had
> in mind.

Too much rice no good for the brain.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From usacm_dc at acm.org  Mon Nov 17 11:55:14 1997
From: usacm_dc at acm.org (USACM Washington Office)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:55:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ACM Washington Update 1.7
Message-ID: <v03110706b0964f4ab553@[204.91.138.218]>


 ____________________________________________________________
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                     ACM WASHINGTON UPDATE

                U.S. Office of Public Policy of the
                   Association for Computing

         __________________________________________
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                      November 14, 1997
                          Volume 1.7

_____________________________________________________
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CONTENTS
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INTRODUCTION

USACM ACTIVITIES

        USACM Signs Amicus Brief in Cryptography Case
        Leading US Science Groups Protest Crypto Restrictions
        USACM Meets With Congressional Staff
        USACM To Sponsor ACM Policy 98 Conference

POLICY BRIEFS

        Congress To Re-Think U.S. Science Policy
        New Net Decency Bill Introduced in Senate
        Copyright Legislation Introduced
        NRC Solicits Comments on Information Literacy
        Proposed Database Protection Legislation
        National Research Investment Act of 1998 Introduced
        Digital Signatures Discussed in Congressional Committees
        Federal Involvement Seen as Crucial to Science Education Reform
        President's Commission Releases Infowar Report.
        Nominations and New Appointments

__________________________________________________________
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INTRODUCTION
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The Association for Computing is an international professional society
whose 75,000 members (60,000 in the U.S.) represent a critical mass of
computer scientists in education, industry, and government. The USACM
provides a means for promoting dialogue on technology policy issues with
United States policy makers and the general public. The WASHINGTON UPDATE
will report on activities in Washington which may be of interest to those
in the computing and information policy communities and will highlight
USACM's involvement in many of these issues.

To subscribe to the ACM WASHINGTON UPDATE send an e-mail to
listserv at acm.org with "subscribe WASHINGTON-UPDATE" (no quotes) in the body
of the message. Back issues are available at
http:/www.acm.org/usacm

For information about joining the Association for Computing, see:
http://www.acm.org/membership/join.html

_________________________________________________________
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ACM POLICY 98 CONFERENCE
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                ACM POLICY '98
        "Shaping Policy in the Information Age"
                May 10-12, 1998
             Washington Renaissance Hotel
                Washington, DC

                          + Electronic Commerce
                          + Intellectual Property
                          + Learning Online
                          + Universal Service

        Sponsored by USACM in cooperation with
              SIGCAS, SIGGRAPH, and SIGCHI.

        For Conference and Registration information see:
        http://www.acm.org/usacm/events/policy98/
_________________________________________________________
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USACM ACTIVITIES
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USACM SIGNS AMICUS BRIEF IN CRYPTOGRAPHY CASE

USACM has joined 14 other groups and three distinguished computer security
experts and cryptographers to sign a brief on encryption submitted to the
9th Circuit Court of Appeals in the Bernstein v. State Department case. The
case challenges the constitutionality of export controls of encryption. In
a lower court decision issued in August, Judge Marilyn Patel ruled that
source code is protected by the First Amendment.
http://www.acm.org/usacm/crypto/bernstein_brief.html

LEADING U.S. SCIENCE GROUPS PROTEST CRYPTO RESTRICTIONS

On September, 24 the leading U.S. scientific, mathematics, and engineering
societies sent a
united message to Congress protesting proposed U.S. cryptography policies
that would maintain export restrictions limiting the open exchange of
scientific information and the progress of scientific research and
development.  In addition, these organizations warned that new requirements
for domestic key recovery raise serious scientific and technical problems
that undermine its viability as a policy alternative.  In a letter to the
House Commerce Committee, the societies indicated that the policies will
"diminish the scientific reputation of the United States and weaken us
economically."

This is the first time these highly influential societies have united to
inform Congress how cryptography policies will effect the future of
scientific research and development in the U. S.  Until now,  the debate
has focused on commercial, civil liberties, and national security/ law
enforcement interests. The letter urges the Committee to reject restrictive
proposals or " U.S. leadership in many areas of  science and technology is
likely to be jeopardized with no discernible benefits to our National
Interests."
http://www.acm.org/usacm/crypto/societies_crypto_letter_1997.html

USACM MEETS WITH CONGRESSIONAL STAFF

On October 9 and 10, USACM Chairperson Barbara Simons met with staffers
from Sen. Boxer, Sen. Feinstein, Sen. Kerry, Rep. Eshoo, and Rep.
Campbell's offices to discuss U.S. cryptography policy.  Simons discussed
both California Resolution SJR29 which  sets forth the Legislature's
vigorous disagreement with the Administration's crypto export policy and
the letter from the scientific societies.
http://www.acm.org/usacm/crypto/usacm_cal_resolution.html

USACM TO SPONSOR ACM POLICY 98 CONFERENCE

USACM is sponsoring the ACM Policy '98 Conference to be held May 10-12 in
Washington DC.  The purpose of the conference is to increase the influence
of computer professionals in shaping the future of computing by
establishing a discourse between computer professionals and policy makers.
ACM proposes to exert leadership in this area through USACM and SIGCAS by
bringing together relevant audiences from academia, government, industry,
and journalism. Leading experts in the field will be invited to discuss,
debate, and develop policies to manage the impact of these technologies to
produce outcomes beneficial to society. The co-chairs of the conference are
Ben Shneiderman, USACM and C. Dianne Martin, SIGCAS and the conference is
being held in cooperation with SIGCAS, SIGGRAPH, and SIGCHI.

The conference will feature discussions on Universal Access, Electronic
Commerce, Intellectual Property, and Learning Online.  The panel
coordinators are USACM members David Farber, Jim Horning,  Pam Samuelson,
and Chuck Brownstein.
http://www.acm.org/usacm/events/policy98/
__________________________________________________________
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POLICY BRIEFS
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CONGRESS TO RETHINK U.S. SCIENCE POLICY

On Oct. 23,  Congressman Vern Ehlers (R-Mich), Vice Chairman of the House
Science Committee, began an effort to redefinine U.S. Science Policy  for
the next century.  The project was initiated by Rep. Newt Gingrich, who
requested that the House Science Committee develop a new, post-Cold War,
paradigm for national science policy. Ehlers convened a meeting of
distinguished policy experts including the Presidents of the National
Academies of Science and Engineering; the President, Vice-President,
Chairman, plus a Senior Fellow from the Council on Competitiveness; leaders
of the Sandia and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratories; the retired
President of Hewlett Packard Corporation; and the President of MIT.

This project offers novel opportunities for scientists and science policy
makers to be involved in the creation of a new paradigm for US science
policy. Vice Chairman Ehlers has set up a web site that will provide
information on this year-long effort and where he will solicit comments on
developing the new policy outline.  First, he is planning to post a
mission/challenge statement and then will begin fashioning a draft science
policy statement.  Beginning in the early summer 1998, he will hold
hearings on the statement.  Subsequently, he will submit the final science
policy document and it will hopefully be adopted as a concurrent resolution
of the Congress. http://www.house.gov/science/science_policy_study.htm

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NEW NET DECENCY BILL INTRODUCED IN SENATE

Senator Dan Coates (R-IN) introduced S. 1482 on November 8. The bill
criminalizes commercial distribution of materials "harmful to minors" on
the Internet.  Under the statute, commercial online distributors of
material deemed "harmful to minors" could be punished with up to six months
in jail and a $50,000 fine unless they have developed age verification or
credit card processing systems.  This is a second iteration of the
Communications Decency Act which the Supreme Court held unconstitutional
this past summer.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:S.1482.IS:

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COPYRIGHT LEGISLATION INTRODUCED

Sen. John Ashcroft (Mi.) has introduced Digital Copyright Clarification and
Technology Education Act of 1997, S. 1145, a comprehensive bill that
provides implementing legislation for the WIPO Copyright Treaty passed last
year.  The bill contains three separate titles covering, OSP/ISP Liability,
Technology for Teachers and Librarians, and WIPO Implementation.

The OSP/ISP Liability section would clarify that merely providing network
services and facilities for transmitting an electronic communication will
not result in liability under the Copyright Act; confirm that providing a
site-linking aid, a navigational aid (including a search engine or
browser), or the tools for creating a site-linking aid will not result in
liability under the Copyright Act; clarify that Internet and on-line
service providers will not be liable for third-party copyright infringement
unless they have received notice and have a reasonable opportunity to limit
the third-party infringement; and confirm that an employee of an
educational institution, library, or archives will not be deemed to have
received notice and thus will not be required to "take down" an allegedly
infringing work if she believed the use was a fair use or otherwise lawful.

The WIPO Implementation title implements provisions of two international
copyright treaties adopted by the World Intellectual Property Organization.
The WIPO treaties oblige signatory nations to offer legal protection
against circumvention of technology intended to protect copyrighted
material against infringement, but do not require the broad prohibition of
software or devices that might be used by infringers.  Section 1201 would
only create liability for a person who--for purposes of infringing a
copyrighted work--knowingly circumvents the application of an effective
anti-copying measure used to protect a work in a digital format.  Section
1202 would create liability for a person who knowingly provides false
copyright management information or who removes or alters copyright
management information without the authority of the copyright owner.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:S.1146:

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NRC SOLICITS COMMENTS ON INFORMATION LITERACY

The Computer Science and Telecommunications Board (CSTB) of the National
Research Council is undertaking a project "to explicate the various
dimensions of what might be called information technology (IT) literacy,
i.e., what everyone needs to know about information technology.  A major
part of the project's task is to develop a consensus for the appropriate
definitions of "everyone", "know", and "information technology"." The
committee responsible for this project is chaired by Larry Snyder,
professor of computer science and engineering at the University of
Washington.

Because the subject of IT literacy is subject to many differing opinions,
the committee has developed a number of questions for which it hopes to
generate a broad response.  Sets of questions have been developed for
computer and communications scientists and engineers, employers and labor
professionals, librarians, K-12 educators, and other groups.  The committee
invites you to submit your answers to these questions in the form of a
short position paper.  For more information, see
http://www2.nas.edu/cstbweb/549a.html

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PROPOSED DATABASE PROTECTION LEGISLATION

Chairman Coble has introduced H.R. 2652, the Collections of Information
Antipiracy Act.  This database bill is designed as a misappropriation bill,
not a sui generis protection bill which had previously been proposed.  In
other words, it in theory does not create a property right in the database;
it simply prohibits the unfair use of the data one has collected.  As this
bill is drafted, however, there is little to distinguish it from a sui
generis protection bill.

Historically, the misappropriation approach in the U.S. is based on the
Supreme Court's holding that the state common law of misappropriation was
not preempted by the copyright law when it covered *hot news.*  This
doctrine was explained in the recent NBA v. Motorola case, where the Court
listed five conditions for misappropriation not to be preempted.  However,
H.R. 2652 appears far broader than the traditional misappropriation
doctrine. Significantly, traditional misappropriation is limited to time
sensitive information, while H.R. 2652 applies to all information.  Also,
the definitions in the statute are extremely vague.   The bill contains
several exceptions and exclusions, but they appear limited. Finally, H.R.
2652 contains civil and criminal penalties ($500,000 penalty and 10 years
in jail).

H.R. 2652 expressly does not extend to computer programs, but this
exclusion "does not apply to a collection of information directly or
indirectly incorporated in a computer program."  There are numerous
interpretations to that language.  For example,  would a command structure
be viewed as a collection of information incorporated in a program?  Or,
what about a look-up table for translation purposes?  One could argue that
the phrase "collection of information ... incorporated in a computer
program" refers to information related to the application rather the
functioning of the program itself.  For example, in a program designed to
determine structural stress, the engineering constants in the program would
be protected, while the interface specifications would not.  This
interpretation, however, is not clear from the face of the statute.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2652:

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NATIONAL RESEARCH INVESTMENT ACT OF 1998 INTRODUCED

On November 7, Sens. Lieberman (D-Conn.) and Gramm (R-Texas) introduced S.
1305, the National Research Investment Act of 1998. The Act is designed to
reverse a downward trend in the federal government's allocation to science
and engineering research by authorizing the doubling of federal research
spending over the next ten years. According to Sen. Lieberman, "...Publicly
funded science has shown to be surprisingly important to the innovation
system. A new study prepared for the National Science Foundation found that
73 percent of the main science papers cited by American industrial patents
in two recent years were based on domestic and foreign research financed by
governments or nonprofit agencies."  He continued, "Yet, despite the
demonstrated importance of publicly funded scientific research, the amount
spent on science and engineering by the Federal Government is declining.
Senator Gramm has already noted that  in 1965, 5.7 percent of the Federal
budget was spent on non defense research and development. Thirty-two years
later, that figure has dropped by two-thirds to 1.9 percent."

On November 12, S. 1305, was discussed at a conference in Washington.  A
member of Senator Gramm's staff indicated that  passage of S. 1305 is
"going to be very difficult."  That is why the Bill supports a ten
yearperiod during which federal spending on R&D will continue to grow until
it is doubled in 2008.  S. 1305 differs from Gramm's previous bill because
of its bipartisan support.  Having both a Democratic and a Republican
original cosponsors will help to reassure other senators.

Also participating in this session were speakers from the AAAS and the
Office of Management and Budget.  AAAS recently calculated that total
federal R&D for FY 1998 increased 3.9% over last year.  Basic research
support increased by 4.0% (both figures subject to change as remaining
appropriations bill are passed.)   The OMB official predicted that
previously forecasted dramatic cuts in federal support for R&D seem
unlikely, as is a doubling of future federal support.

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DIGITAL SIGNATURES DISCUSSED IN CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES

The Senate Banking and House Science Committee held hearings on October 28
on digital signatures. The witnesses at the hearings recommended that any
bill proposed be limited in its scope. They argued that since many
companies are using digital signatures for different reasons, it would be
premature for Congress to pass far- reaching legislation. Andrew Pincus
from the Commerce Department noted "it seems unlikely that the market will
settle on one universal authentication mechanism." Senator Robert Bennett
(R-UT) announced that he is planning to introduce legislation early next
year.

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FEDERAL INVOLVEMENT SEEN AS CRUCIAL TO SCIENCE EDUCATION REFORM

Efforts are being made to improve U.S. K-12 science and math education.
An October 29  House Science Committee hearing reviewed the federal role in
improving science education and asked the question: is the federal
government coordinating its many programs for maximum effectiveness?
Committee Vice Chair Vern Ehlers (R-MI), who has run this series of
hearings, blamed the lack of a  national consensus for the current
"fragmented, mile-wide and inch-deep science and math curricula" that
students face.  He believes the federal government should play a role in
correcting this trend.

At an October 8 hearing in the same series, three experts in the field of
science education were invited to discuss the lessons learned from TIMMS,
the Third International Mathematics and Science Study which analyzed
international achievement in math and science at several grade levels.  The
TIMMS results showed that US fourth-graders performed above the
international average in math and were second only to South Korea in
science.  But by eighth grade, US students performed only slightly above
the international average in science and below the average in math.  This
drop in achievement from fourth to eighth grade, said TIMMS National
Research Coordinator William Schmidt, demonstrated that "US students don't
start out behind the rest of the world, but fall behind during the middle
school years."   All three witnesses attributed this failing of US math and
science education to the lack of a national consensus on what should be
taught at each grade.
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PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION RELEASES INFOWAR REPORT

The President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection released
its final report on November 5.  The report recommends increased spending
for computer security and training and warns that currently, most major
U.S. infrastructures which depentd on computer systems are unprotected. In
a controversial section, it recommended that key escrow/recovery systems be
adopted.  The report was heavily criticized by industry representatives in
hearings before the House and Senate.  USACM member Peter Neumann testified
about the report before the House Science Committee on November 6, 1997
criticizing numerous findings of the Commision..

The President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection was
established in July 1996 to examine both physical and electronic cyber
threats to eight key U.S. infrastructures (energy, telecommunications,
banking and finance, transportation, gas and oil storage, water supply
systems, government services and emergency service). The Commission will
develop a comprehensive national strategy for infrastructure assurance.

The full report is available at http://www.pccip.gov

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NOMINATIONS AND NEW APPOINTMENTS

The President's National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee was
established under Executive Order 12382 to provide the President with
technical information and advice on national  security telecommunications
policy. The committee is composed of  no more than 30 members who have
particular knowledge and expertise  in the field of  telecommunications and
who represent elements of the Nation's telecommunications industry. The
President appointed Mr. Charles R. Lee and Mr. Van B. Honeycutt to the
Committee.

The Advisory Committee on High Performance Computing and Communications,
Information Technology, and The Next Generation Internet will provide
valuable guidance and advice on all areas of high performance computing,
communications, and information technologies to the President, the Office
of Science and Technology Policy, and the Federal agencies involved in the
Computing, Information, and Communications R & D, including the Next
Generation Internet Initiative.  They will also provide valuable guidance
on the Administration's efforts to accelerate development and adoption of
Information technologies that will be vital for American prosperity in the
21st century.  The President announced his intent to appoint Mr. David W.
Dorman, Dr. Joe F. Thompson, Dr. Irving Wladawsky-Berger, and Dr. John P.
Miller to the Committee.

President Clinton announced his intent to appoint Dr. Jeffrey Jaffe, Mayor
Sharon Sayles Belton, Norman Mineta, and Joseph Holmes as Members to the
Advisory Committee to the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure
Protection.  The Advisory Committee, which is made up of infrastructure
industry executives and private-sector leaders will advise and support the
President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection.
 ________________________________________________________________________
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Washington Update is a biweekly publication of the U.S. Public Policy
Office of the Association for Computing http://www.acm.org/usacm 666
Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 302B, Washington, DC
20003. 202/298-0842 (tel), 202/547-5482 (fax).
________________________________________________________________________








From alan at clueserver.org  Sun Nov 16 19:58:31 1997
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:58:31 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116182556.0072fe08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711170358.TAA14061@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 06:53 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>At 06:25 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>I'm pleased to see PGP Inc. permitting development of freeware,
>>but at leased from a first reading of the license, 
>>it's a _really_ restrictive definition of "freeware" - 
>>not only does the software have to be free, but it can only be used 
>>in extremely restrictively non-commercial activities.
>
>The idea is simple: you make money from software that costs the authors
>lots of money to develop or use their software in a business environment
>(=to make money), you have to pay the people that spent time, effort, and,
>yes, money, on making it happen.
>
>Sounds reasonable to me.

I can see where they want to make a profit, but the licence makes the
software virtually undistributable by normal shareware channels.  

>From what I have read of the license it is against the license agreement to
ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products for which a price is charged.

If I were to create a program using the libraries and upload them to Simtel
or one of the other big archives, it could not be distributed on a Simtel
CD-ROM that someone was charging money for.  (Ignoring the usual export
issues.)

I see this as a big problem.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov 16 20:01:29 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:01:29 +0800
Subject: RAM disks for temp files?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116125402.007134ec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711170351.WAA27712@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971116125402.007134ec at popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 11/16/97 
   at 12:54 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts at ix.netcom.com> said:

>At 01:27 AM 11/16/1997 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>>> (Hint, temporary files all over the place.)
>>  For you old farts who have not been out in the real world for a
>>while, you should make note of the fact that the price of memory
>>has dropped, and it is now feasible to implement RAM disks to
>>store temporary files.

>I was using RAM disks on my 386 machines with Win3.1.
>Now that I've got faster machines with more RAM,
>I'm running Win95 and can't find a ramdisk program - 
>does anybody know where to find one?

>On Unix, you _could_ do things with temp files,
>but it usually made much more sense to structure your programs to use
>pipes, which means there's no temp file and only
>a few KB of RAM buffering in between each program.
>PGP's DOS heritage doesn't encourage this sort of programming, though the
>new design for one-pass processing may have
>made it either possible or unnecessary.

>On machines with real operating systems, designing a 
>ramdisk includes deciding whether to make it virtual memory
>that might get swapped if necessary, or nail it into RAM.
>Since RAMdisks are usually intended for increasing speed,
>it usually makes more sense to let the vm manager decide
>what pages to page out and what pages not to,
>but obviously if you're using it for security that's different.

>SunOS had the /tmpfs file system design which let you
>get hybrid behavior - temp files stay in RAM until
>they need to get swapped out to disk, and most programs
>delete them before that ever happens - really speeds up compiles. >From a
>cryptographic standpoint, it's not ideal, since occasionally your files
>would end up on disk, but they'd usually be safe.
>				Thanks! 

For OS/2 there is a very nice RAM Disk program called SVDisk. It allows
you to "lock" a portion or all of your Ramdisk to be non-swapable. Also
has multiple disk support, HPFS & FAT support, and various floppy format
support for VFloppies.

The initial VDisks must be set-up in the config.sys via the VDisk.sys
driver. After bootup the user is free to mount & unmount disks, format
disks, and lock and unlock portions of the VDisks.

I usally run a 8Mb HPFS VDisk Locked for a temp directory.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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6tBnW9WLsPU=
=QtTf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From shamrock at netcom.com  Sun Nov 16 20:10:43 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:10:43 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971116185328.006d9ca8@netcom12.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971116200126.006de1a4@netcom12.netcom.com>



At 07:47 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>From what I have read of the license it is against the license agreement to
>ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products for which a price is
charged.

o There is typically an exemption in license agreements for distribution of
software that charges nominal media costs. If PGP overlooked this, it can
be added trivially. No need to get excited about it.

o The current license agreement for the PGPsdk is for use freeware only.
The license agreement for shareware has not yet been made public (=been
written).





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock at netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi






From frissell at panix.com  Sun Nov 16 20:22:03 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:22:03 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971116231506.0387c394@panix.com>



At 08:54 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
>make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
>racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
>to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
>have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
>
>Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
>not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
>you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
>case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.

Actually, the beauty of modern capitalism is that there are so many customers for whatever it is one sells (or could sell) that you can say anything you want and not suffer economically for it (for very long).  Freedom, it's wonderful.

DCF






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Nov 16 20:27:24 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:27:24 +0800
Subject: kiwi not home (was: getting premail)
Message-ID: <ciQ052BPHhNlGI87sr7/tQ==@bureau42.ml.org>



Igor Chudov wrote:

> > Bill Stewart wrote:
> > 
> > At 11:11 PM 11/13/1997 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >Anyone know of a WORKING site where I can download premail from?
> > >kiwi...berkeley is refusing connections.
> > 
> > http://atropos.c2.net/~raph/premail.html
> > 
> > Also look at www.publius.net
> 
> Nope, all of these sites refer me to kiwi, which is refusing > connections.

kiwi is NOT refusing connections.  It is just not there.  There's 
a difference.

The host:

	http://kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu/

does not respond to connection requests to port 80, nor 8080, nor 8001.

Ping yields "Host lookup failed - Non-authoritative host not found."

The browser indicates it is trying to contact, which can mean anything
up to and including that it is awaiting a cascading name lookup, but 
has not yet opened a TCP connection to the target. I'm guessing kiwi 
is Raph's computer in Computer Science and that maybe it is hosed. 
Maybe Raph has been hosed... 

    "(WHAP!) Tell us the name of your leader! (WHAP!) Talk! (WHAP!)" 

Maybe Raph will turn up one of these days writing plaintive 
notes of contrition. Maybe... oh, never mind.

Oddly, while Raph has a home page at www.cs.berkeley.edu and 
at atropos.c2.net/, all the critical roads seem to lead to kiwi, 
including the mixmaster list. Search engines show precious few references to critical remailer files except in the links that 
point to the dead host. Is it really this easy to make the whole
remailer network go stale -- like cutting off jet fighter spare 
parts to suddenly unfriendly nation-states?

Wouldn't it be prudent to mirror the remailer lists, keys and 
stats at a few dozen places scattered around the world? Would
it take more than a few percent of the effort and time that have
recently been pissed down a hole writing and reading the flames
that have consumed the list of late? Hmmmm?






From grafolog at netcom.com  Sun Nov 16 20:31:11 1997
From: grafolog at netcom.com (jonathon)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:31:11 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711162343.IAA12079@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.971117041411.4208F-100000@netcom13>



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Joichi Ito wrote:

> issue and gave them the recommendation. It is likely that some pressure
> from the US government is being put on Japanese ministries such as MITI,

	Some pressure?  A simple little phone call is all it took,
	for Japan INC, to knuckle down to the NSA.  

> necessary to write off all Japanese as stooges. Also, I disagree that there
> is "no apparent prospects for them _ever_ becoming available." This is not

	Japan INC, won't make those chips, untill either:
	1: the NSA tells them to go ahead and make the
	or
	2:  Japan thinks it is ready to declare war on the US, again,
	and needs those chips for military conquest.   

	I vote for option 2 happening far sooner than option 1.
	
	Just how soon do you think Japan will be willing to declare
	war against the US, with a hope of winning it?  

          xan

          jonathon
          grafolog at netcom.com


	There are operating systems that were not dreamed up,
	in Redmond.

	Some of them even are bug-free.








From frissell at panix.com  Sun Nov 16 20:40:47 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:40:47 +0800
Subject: CH (Was: Scared of US; Where to relocate?)
In-Reply-To: <199711121431.PAA10956@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971116232947.03d00e38@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:37 PM 11/14/97 -0800, Frederick G.M. Roeber wrote:
>Switzerland jumps to mind for points 1-3: stable politically, good
>economy, and first class medical.  There is a job market, but they're
>very restrictive about letting people in, particularly if you might want
>a job that a Swiss would do.  It helps if you're rich.

Actually, this is not true if you don't mind temp work.  Computer 
professionals can easily get temp assignments in Switzerland and become 
permanent temps.  With luck they can get B permits and then C permits 
(permanent residency) after a year.

>The taxes are high, as is the cost of living.  There are strong social
>programs just about everywhere.  It's landlocked.  Consumerism isn't as
>developed there, which translates to poor service and bad selections.

The taxes (and everything else) vary by Canton.  Some Cantons (Zug for 
example) have taxes low enough to qualify them as low-tax countries.  Stay 
out of Zurich though.

>Not perfect, but nice.  I'd feel a lot happier raising kids there than
>here in the US.

A lovely Osteria in Ticino (the Italian Canton).  Polenta cooking in a pot 
over the fire in the fireplace.  Walls covered with the heads of dead animals 
and literally dozens of long guns of all vintages including a few semi-
(full?)autos.  Ten minutes outside of one of Switzerland's major cities.

Nice people.

DCF
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qQQYig8uSbc=
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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 16 21:07:22 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:07:22 +0800
Subject: cryptx spam - des-based program.
In-Reply-To: <199711152150.NAA21132@ixmail2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116190522.00724224@popd.ix.netcom.com>



I got spammed by someone selling Cryptx, a DES-based encryption program.
I'm assuming they know they're spamming; at least the person who
sent the email did, though perhaps the vendor doesn't understand it.
In addition to selling crypto, their web page says they also sell an
"Automates the process of submitting your URL's to over 370 sites!"
which is at least on the borderline tacky side.

Their web page doesn't look like snake oil, though they _really_ 
need to emphasize the importance of good keys 
(they talk about DES having been cracked once by the distributed 
internet crack, and neglect to mention that DES with easy-to-guess 
keys has been cracked regularly for years.  
So not only do the Bad Guys abuse the level of effort of the crack, 
but so do well-meaning but clueless people.) 
I'd guess they don't do anything like generating a random high-entropy 
session key and encrypting it with a passphrase.
Also, they promise an "Update to 448-Bit encryption", which says
that even if there's no snake oil now, there may be soon.
Upgrade so you can email your encrypted files right through Cryptx. You
will never have to worry about sending uncompromised email again.

All of the domain names in the SPAM are from directsend.com
   Info World 
   PO BOX 92223
   City of Industry, CA 91715-2223
except of course than nrply.com is non-existent.
The web page gives its identity as
 PBD Technologies
 13502-H Whittier Blvd.
 Suite 304
 Whittier, CA 90605
Their web page also says they have offices in Portland and Toronto,
presumably including the person named in the whois for crypt-x.com 
   Mark Weber CRYPT-X-DOM
   4534 SE 17th Ave. Ste. 153B
   Portland, OR 97202
   US
   Administrative Contact:
      Weber, Mark  MW3634  coolio at AIMARKET.COM
      503-235-9442 (FAX) 503-235-9254

> Return-Path: <cryptx at ultra-mail.com>
> Received: from digital-coupons.com ([206.84.21.30])
>	by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7/(NETCOM v1.01)) with ESMTP id NAA21132; ;
>	Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:50:22 -0800 (PST)
>From: cryptx at ultra-mail.com
>Message-Id: <199711152150.NAA21132 at ixmail2.ix.netcom.com>
>Received: by digital-coupons.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA07327;
>        Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:48:59 -0500 (EST)
>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:48:59 -0500 (EST)
>Received: from  by  (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA02678 for ;  Sat, 15 November 1997 13:38:59 -0700 (EDT)
>To: GetProtected at nrply.com
>Subject: Protect your data from prying eyes!
>
>Hello -
>Do you have information that is vulnerable?  Do you 
>utilize Email, FTP, HTTP, or just browse the Net?  
>If so, your personal and business information is accessable 
>to those who know how to find it.  Now you can have the most 
>powerful Data Security program, Cryptx, completely encrypt 
>your data to keep out prying eyes.  Why take the chance?  Get 
>your information completely secured and keep everyone from 
>children to co-workers OUT of your private data.  For more 
>information and to get your FREE, fully-functional, Demo today 
>simply go to our website at:
>http://www.ultra-mail.com/cryptx
>For questions or information on Dealer opportunities, please
>send a message to:  cryptx at ultra-mail.com
>Thanks-
>Cryptx Staff
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>to be permanently removed, please send a message
>to:  remove at ultra-mail.com
>
>
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From schear at lvdi.net  Sun Nov 16 21:14:06 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:14:06 +0800
Subject: [FWD] Technology and Privacy: The New Landscape
Message-ID: <v03102808b0954c4eb6f9@[208.129.55.202]>



    Date: 06 Nov 1997 07:58:03 -0800 (PST)
    From: Phil Agre <pagre at weber.ucsd.edu>
    Subject: Technology and Privacy: The New Landscape

Feel free to post where appropriate.

  Technology and Privacy:
  The New Landscape

  edited by

    Philip E. Agre
    University of California, San Diego

    Marc Rotenberg
    Electronic Privacy Information Center

  MIT Press, 1997

  Hardcover
  ISBN: 0-262-01162-X
  $25.00

  Available through the EPIC Bookstore:

    http://www.epic.org/bookstore/

  Excerpts from the introduction can be found at:

    http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/landscape.html

  MIT Press Web site:

    http://mitpress.mit.edu/

Privacy is the capacity to negotiate social relationships by
controlling access to personal information.  As laws, policies, and
technological design increasingly structure people's relationships with
social institutions, individual privacy faces new threats and new
opportunities.  Over the last several years, the realm of technology
and privacy has been transformed, creating a landscape that is both
dangerous and encouraging.  Significant changes include large increases
in communications bandwidths; the widespread adoption of computer
networking and public-key cryptography; mathematical innovations that
promise a vast family of protocols for protecting identity in complex
transactions; new digital media that support a wide range of social
relationships; a new generation of technologically sophisticated
privacy activists; a massive body of practical experience in the
development and application of data-protection laws; and the rapid
globalization of manufacturing, culture, and policy making.

The essays in this book provide a new conceptual framework for the
analysis and debate of privacy policy and for the design and
development of information systems.  The authors are international
experts in the technical, economic, and political aspects of privacy;
the book's strength is its synthesis of the three.  The book provides
equally strong analyses of privacy issues in the United States, Canada,
and Europe.


Contributors:

  Philip E. Agre
    Beyond the mirror world: Privacy and the representational
    practices of computing

  Victoria Bellotti
    Design for privacy in multimedia computing and communications
    environments

  Colin J. Bennett
    Convergence revisited: Towards a global policy for personal
    data protection

  Herbert Burkert
    Privacy enhancing technologies: Typology, vision, critique

  Simon G. Davies
    Re-engineering the privacy right: How privacy has been
    transformed from a right to a commodity 

  David H. Flaherty
    Controlling surveillance: Can privacy protection be made
    effective?

  Robert Gellman
    Does privacy law work?

  Viktor Mayer-Schoenberger
    Generational development of data protection in Europe

  David J. Phillips
    Cryptography, secrets, and the structuring of trust

  Rohan Samarajiva
    Interactivity as though privacy mattered








From phelix at vallnet.com  Sun Nov 16 21:18:30 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:18:30 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116182556.0072fe08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <346fceac.2664896@128.2.84.191>



On 16 Nov 1997 22:18:39 -0600, Alan Olsen <alan at clueserver.org> wrote:

>>From what I have read of the license it is against the license agreement to
>ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products for which a price is charged.
>
>If I were to create a program using the libraries and upload them to Simtel
>or one of the other big archives, it could not be distributed on a Simtel
>CD-ROM that someone was charging money for.  (Ignoring the usual export
>issues.)
>
>I see this as a big problem.

This, unfortunately, is a non-issue.  I just reread the license agreement
and noticed the following:

Non-Commercial Distribution License.

 Subject to all the terms and conditions of this Agreement, PGP hereby
grants to you or your organization a limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable
license (a) to incorporate [... stuff deleted ...] 
and (b) to reproduce and distribute the Bundled Freeware Application to end
users solely by electronic means (for example, posting on networks or
Internet sites for others to download), 

So, the only way to really (legally) distribute this would be on your own
web site, or a web site that will never be picked up on a cdrom
distribution.

The as of yet unreleased shareware licensing agreements will probably cover
cdrom distribution.

-- Phelix

(ps.  always read anything written by lawyers twice)







From alan at clueserver.org  Sun Nov 16 21:48:22 1997
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:48:22 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <199711170358.TAA14061@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199711170552.VAA14639@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 08:01 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 07:47 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>>From what I have read of the license it is against the license agreement to
>>ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products for which a price is
>charged.
>
>o There is typically an exemption in license agreements for distribution of
>software that charges nominal media costs. If PGP overlooked this, it can
>be added trivially. No need to get excited about it.

I know that, you know that, but do the lawyers know that?

Shareware and freeware share the same distribution channels, so it is a
problem for freeware until the licence gets upgraded.

>o The current license agreement for the PGPsdk is for use freeware only.
>The license agreement for shareware has not yet been made public (=been
>written).

I know that.

I just find the current versions on the licence agreement to be not well
thought out.  I expect similar problems to be found in the shareware licence.

By version 2.x of the license agreement, I expect it to be something that
will not make problems for freeware/shareware developers.

[Note: I am not claiming consipracy or illwill by PGP in this matter.  This
stuff just reads like the lawyers had not quite enough understanding of the
issues when they wrote this.  Could be worse, Borland has had some pretty
unworkable license restrictions.  And I won't even get into Microsoft...]
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From alan at clueserver.org  Sun Nov 16 21:48:37 1997
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:48:37 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116182556.0072fe08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711170552.VAA14642@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 05:11 AM 11/17/97 +0000, phelix at vallnet.com wrote:
>
>On 16 Nov 1997 22:18:39 -0600, Alan Olsen <alan at clueserver.org> wrote:
>
>>>From what I have read of the license it is against the license agreement to
>>ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products for which a price is
charged.
>>
>>If I were to create a program using the libraries and upload them to Simtel
>>or one of the other big archives, it could not be distributed on a Simtel
>>CD-ROM that someone was charging money for.� (Ignoring the usual export
>>issues.)
>>
>>I see this as a big problem.
>
>This, unfortunately, is a non-issue.� I just reread the license agreement
>and noticed the following:
>
>Non-Commercial Distribution License.
>
> Subject to all the terms and conditions of this Agreement, PGP hereby
>grants to you or your organization a limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable
>license (a) to incorporate [... stuff deleted ...] 
>and (b) to reproduce and distribute the Bundled Freeware Application to end
>users solely by electronic means (for example, posting on networks or
>Internet sites for others to download), 
>
>So, the only way to really (legally) distribute this would be on your own
>web site, or a web site that will never be picked up on a cdrom
>distribution.
>
>The as of yet unreleased shareware licensing agreements will probably cover
>cdrom distribution.

Freeware and shareware often share the same distribution channel.  It kind
of puts a crimp in distribution if you cannot upload to any archive that
might wind up on a cd-rom.  (Furthermore, uploads to those archives are not
always under the control of the author.)

Hopefully they will go back and update the freeware license agreement as well.
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 16 22:04:35 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:04:35 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971116231506.0387c394@panix.com>
Message-ID: <BsRage5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



frissell at panix.com writes:

> At 08:54 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
> >It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> >make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> >racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
> >to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> >have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
> >
> >Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
> >not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
> >you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
> >case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.
>
> Actually, the beauty of modern capitalism is that there are so many customers

Net.scum like Ito-San try to get people fired from their jobs because of
what they say on the Internet.  Nuke the Yellow Peril (again)!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 16 22:04:46 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:04:46 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <199711170358.TAA14061@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116212137.00730320@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 08:01 PM 11/16/1997 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 07:47 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>>From what I have read of the license it is against the license 
>>agreement to ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products 
>>for which a price is charged.

>o There is typically an exemption in license agreements for distribution of
>software that charges nominal media costs. If PGP overlooked this, it can
>be added trivially. No need to get excited about it.

I assume it was deliberate - it goes out of its way to say that you
can't use it to generate revenues, directly or indirectly,
and even including it on a disk of freeware that you sell
would appear to count, as would providing the free widget for
free download on a web page with commercial advertising banners.

It's far more restrictive than the previous PGP policies,
and not being able to use it in my office building is even more
annoying than not being able to use it to encrypt work email.

>o The current license agreement for the PGPsdk is for use freeware only.
>The license agreement for shareware has not yet been made public (=been
>written).

I'm not bothered by the freeware permissions not applying to shareware;
it would be nice if they negotiate a low enough price for shareware
authors to use, but if you're going to make money off their code,
I don't mind if PGP wants their cut.  
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From schear at lvdi.net  Sun Nov 16 22:04:52 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:04:52 +0800
Subject: [FWD] Finding a Face in the Crowd
Message-ID: <v03102807b09549870fe1@[208.129.55.202]>



From: Jeffrey Waters 000-000-0000 <WATERSJ1 at mail.firn.edu>
Date: 06 Nov 1997 08:23:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Finding a Face in the Crowd

Found this on a visit to "Science NEWS - EurekAlert! Public Contents"
at  http://www.eurekalert.org . Interesting to note that the technology
was developed with US military funding and is commercially marketed in
the EU.

Oh well Mr. Orwell, you've never believe how far we've come...

"Mugspot" Can Find A Face In The Crowd - Award-Winning Face-Recognition
Software Prepares to Go to Work in the Streets

Computer "eyes" are now up to such tasks as watching for fugitives in
airline terminals and other busy locations. A sophisticated
face-recognition system that placed first in recent Army competitive
trials has been given the added ability to pick out faces in noisy or
chaotic "street" environments.

The new "Mugspot" software module developed at the University of
Southern California automatically analyzes video images, looking for
passers-by.  When it finds them, it picks out the heads in the images
and then tracks the heads for as long as they remain in the camera's
field.

Throughout this tracking process, the software is watching for the best
possible view of the subject's face -- the one that shows him or her
looking most directly at the camera. It selects the best view presented
and passes it on to the main face-recognition program.

This face-recognition software, developed at USC and the University of
Bochum, Germany, and now in commercial use for clients such as
Germany's Deutsche Bank, is robust enough to make identifications from
less-than- perfect face views. It can also often see through such
impediments to identification as mustaches, beards, changed hair styles
and glasses -- even sunglasses.

<...snip...>

Cameras mounted in airports and bus stations, or aimed at oncoming cars
at traffic intersections, might continuously watch for known fugitives,
von der Malsburg says. Bank surveillance cameras could identify persons
seen at previous bank robberies.

The Mugspot system can scan eight video frames per second in real time,
and takes about 13 seconds to select the best view, process it for
identification, compare it to the several hundred faces in its memory
and decide whether it has found a match.

The three research associates who developed Mugspot with von der
Malsburg -- USC graduate student Egor Elagin, postdoctoral researcher
Hartmut Neven and Bochum University visiting graduate student Johannes
Steffens -- believe further refinement of the system can shorten that
time by half.

Mugspot is only the latest improvement in the USC/Bochum face
recognition software, developed with funds from the Army Research
Laboratory (ARL) and marketed commercially in Europe under the
trade-name ZN-Face.

<...snip...>

The USC/Bochum system also shone in tests conducted under substandard
lighting conditions: It lost only a small fraction of its accuracy,
while competitors showed drastic falloffs in less-than-brilliant
illumination.

The USC/Bochum system uses an unusual approach that mimics the
technique scientists believe the brain uses to recognize images. Von
der Malsburg, whose principal research interests lie in the
investigation of living brains, in fact carried out much of the
original research on the system as part of an attempt to understand
human face recognition. His research led to creating a computer model
of the way the brain's visual cortex processes information.

EM.MALSBURG3 -USC- NOV. 5, 1997

For Immediate Release: 5 November 1997

Contact: Eric Mankin   mankin at usc.edu       213 740 9344

from the University of Southern California News Service 3620 South
Vermont Avenue, Los Angeles, CA 90089-2538 Tel: 213 740 2215 Fax: 213
740 7600 http://www.usc.edu







From jito at eccosys.com  Sun Nov 16 23:05:15 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:05:15 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711162343.IAA12079@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711170700.QAA13617@eccosys.com>



At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> My strong suspicion is that Japanese journalists and source are NOT the
> best place to learn about Japanese SIGINT and COMINT capabilities. Not hard
> to see some reasons for this.

I will agree with you on this. I am not an expert. (I am not a traditional
journalist either.) I was just stating my honest understanding and
impression.

> Please notify me, and us, of the forums where these engagements are
> occurring. For starters, how about some e-mail addresses of cabinet
> ministers and other officials.

The main problem is that most of it is in Japanese. 

The discussion in the media is definitely not enough, but it exists.
Mr. Makino, a lawyer is tracking the wiretap stuff closely and
Gosuke Takama is tracking the crypto stuff. Wired Japan (in Japanese)
is probably the most comprehensive in tracking government policy
in this area. Some of the major newspapers have published some good
articles. I'll see if I can get permission to post one by Mr. Makino
in English.

Most of the "talking" goes on in study groups run be the ministries.
The members of the study groups usually included party-line academics,
industry people, and some outsiders such as myself. I am usually included
in study groups that either want to protect themselves from my
criticism later or that feel I actually add value. The ministry will
usually go to each of the members of the committee and try to talk
through any important points before the actual study session occurs
so that there is no conflict during the session. In practice, there
are several of us who do not necessarily agree and we are verbal
during the sessions. These points get dilligently put on record and
impact the actual report if we are stuborn enough. These reports then
get distributed and used by politicians and media as references.

One way, other than being a member of such a study group, to impact
these study groups is to be invited as a speaker or to have written
material distributed and discussed. I have made a point of distributing
as much material from the Net as possible arguing against key escrow
and wiretap. If anyone is willing to come to Japan to make a presentation,
I would be happy to arrange such hearing.

The fact of the matter is, the system is very inefficient and many things
don't turn out the way I would like, but being one of the handful of
people who can say what they think in these study groups, I feel it
is my responsibility to actively engage in the method to trying to make
things better.

All of the ministries have web pages and email addresses, but I doubt
they have much effect.

I really am sorry I don't have a better answer.

> This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too
> sensitive to engage in robust debate.

This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust
debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will
probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me
no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.

> Frankly, I've seen no mentions in the American press, let alone the
> Japanese press, about how Japan caved in to U.S. pressures. (There may have
> been some minor mentions in the U.S. press, but they had little impact.)

There are journalists focusing on this issue. I don't think anything
is in print yet.

> So, Joichi, why don't you stir the shit on this one? And I don't mean with
> "constructive engagement." That's a synonym for inaction.

Sorry. I am stiring the shit way too hard already. Not enough for you,
I'm sure, but my risk is already rather high just talking to you here. :-)

> Point out to your Japanese readers the nefarious role the NSA is playing,
> the role of the U.S. spy facilities in Misakawa Air Force Base, where the
> NSA and its military liason offices, intercept the communications of
> Toshiba, Fujitsu, Hitachi, NEC, and so on and feed them, selectively, to
> U.S. COMINT consumers. (Why Japan and Germany allow U.S. SIGINT facilities
> in their own territory is a mystery to me...must be some nice payoffs to
> senior officials.)

This is actually rather well documented in the press and I think 
several analysts such as Mr. Kazuhisa Ogawa actively talk about this
point.

> Declare war on the NSA. You've several times trumpetted the Japanese
> Constitution as supporting basic rights even more than the Amerikan
> Constitution does, so this is your chance to say "Fuck the National
> Security State."

Nope. You're not going to catch me declaring war on the NSA on this
mailing list. ;-P

> Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia could
> use it right now.

I am going to actively work on trying to get people like RSA to export
their chip, but not necessarily for the drug trade.

So... I am a wimpy moderate, but at least I'm talking to you folks.
If you want me to shit or get off the pot, I think I'll get off the
pot.

- Joi

P.S. I am going out of town for two days and may not have
net connectivity. So, if I don't respond to something, it's not
because I'm hiding. If you don't hear from me in 3 days, call John
Markoff for me. ;-P

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Nov 16 23:05:36 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:05:36 +0800
Subject: kiwi not home (was: getting premail)
In-Reply-To: <ciQ052BPHhNlGI87sr7/tQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971117064636.20387A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> kiwi is NOT refusing connections.  It is just not there.  There's 
> a difference.
Yep. Kiwi is dead. Most everything that was on kiwi has moved to publius.net.

> stats at a few dozen places scattered around the world? Would
They are. You can get different perspectives on remailer stats by fingering:

rlist at anon.efga.org
mlist at anon.efga.org (Mixmaster stats)
rlist at anon.lcs.mit.edu
mlist at anon.lcs.mit.edu (guess what)

Or rlist at publius.net; I don't recall what the syntax for the Mixmaster list
is over there (and no, it's not mlist at publius).

dave

--

Today's pseudorandom quote:
"How many of those words did you just make up?" -- from "Dilbert", 11-8-90

David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)






From kent at songbird.com  Sun Nov 16 23:16:56 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:16:56 +0800
Subject: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971116230732.31621@songbird.com>



On Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 09:03:50AM -0700, Tim "Ad Hominem" May wrote:
[...]
> As Bob Hettinga, Kent Crispin, and other policemen inside are warning, if
> we don't censor ourselves, if we don't narc out others, the real police
> will have to do it for us. Welcome to the New World Order.

You're of the "courtesy == censorship" school, clearly.

> Of course, an alternative is to say "Fuck you" to those who want us to shut
> up,

Apparently the only alternative that you understand.

> to deploy more unbreakable crypto, to encourage more armed militias to
> spring up, to destabilize the regimes in Hong Kong, Japan, and India, and
> to "Just Say No" to backdoors in PGP and other crypto products. Bring on
> crypto anarchy.

Yeah, yeah.  You won't live to see it, Tim.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From shamrock at netcom.com  Sun Nov 16 23:21:31 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:21:31 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971116200126.006de1a4@netcom12.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971116232006.00722604@netcom12.netcom.com>



At 09:33 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>
>>o There is typically an exemption in license agreements for distribution of
>>software that charges nominal media costs. If PGP overlooked this, it can
>>be added trivially. No need to get excited about it.
>
>I know that, you know that, but do the lawyers know that?

I trust they do now.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock at netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi






From blancw at cnw.com  Sun Nov 16 23:36:34 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:36:34 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971116233241.006c050c@cnw.com>



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

>Just having racist thoughts, let alone expessing them, is equivalent to
>extreme violence. Remember the student who got suspended for a semester
>for laughing while singing "We shall overcome"?
.....................................................

Didn't hear about that.   Don't care.   Cypherpunks should know better.   

"Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
beneficence."

Cypherpunks also realize that with the secure privacy they enable, people
will be free to exchange not only pornographic thoughts, but all manner of
other opinions, including racist misgivings.   Most cypherpunks feel pretty
free to hold all manner of offensive impressions not only of governments
and major software companies, but of each other, as well, and especially
feel pretty free to express these personal impressions, not only in
private, but in public, even if Interpol is watching.  This is not unusual
and quite understandable, as most cypherpunks are male and lacking in the
delicacy of gentlemanly manners (except for Tim May, who is always careful
with his words and focuses mainly on the point of code in the swiftly
evolving world of cyberspace).

Any list member who hasn't yet realized this needs help and should spend
some time communicating with TruthMonger.

    ..
Blanc
p.s.  and Dimitry, you shouldn't be posting through 'toad' anymore, if you
don't want to be identified as a 'toady'.






From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Nov 17 00:05:06 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:05:06 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) NaiF Meeting on Data Mining - MONDAY 11/17
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971117000344.00688174@cnw.com>



Thought this might be of interest to some of you in the Puget Sound area.
    ..
Blanc

>	NORTHWEST ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE FORUM
>
>WHEN:    Monday, November 17th, 1997. 
>                No-host dinner: 5:30 - 6:30 p.m.
>                Social hour: 6:00 - 7:00 p.m.
>                Training: 7:00 - 8:30 p.m.
>     
>WHERE:	The College Club, 5th Avenue & Madison Street, 
>		in Seattle.  (Directions later in this notice.)
>
>TOPIC:		Data Mining and KDD: An Introductory Overview
>
>SPEAKER:  	Usama M. Fayyad, Ph.D., Microsoft Research
>
>COST:   	Public $10, NaiF members free. Complimentary parking
>              	until 9 p.m. for all attendees in the College Club garage. 
>
>ABSTRACT
>
>Knowledge Discovery in Databases (KDD) and Data Mining are concerned with
>the extraction of high-level information (knowledge) from low-level data
>(usually stored in large databases).  Dr. Fayyad will give an overview of
>this rapidly growing area, define the goals, present motivation, and give a
>high-level definition of the KDD Process and how it relates to Data Mining.
>He will then focus on data mining methods.  These methods have their origins
>in statistics, pattern recognition, learning, visualization, databases, and
>parallel computing.  Basic coverage of a sampling of methods will be
>provided to give a feel for what the methods are about and how they are
>used.  
>
>He will outline the research challenges and opportunities posed by the
>problem of extracting models from massive data sets (i.e., much larger than
>main memory). Operating under such scalability constraints poses interesting
>problems for how models can be built and what methods are practical.  He
>will use an application in astronomy, done at JPL/Caltech, to motivate the
>need for dealing with large databases, to illustrate problems of
>classification and clustering with verylarge data sets, and to illustrate
>how these techniques can offer powerful novel solutions to significant
>problems.
>
>BIOGRAPHY
>
>Usama Fayyad is a Senior Researcher at Microsoft Research
>(http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/dtg/fayyad)
><http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/dtg/fayyad)> .  After receiving
>the Ph.D. degree in 1991, he joined the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL),
>California Institute of Technology, until 1996.  At JPL, he headed the
>Machine Learning Systems Group where he developed data mining systems for
>automated science data analysis.  He remains affiliated with JPL as a
>Distinguished Visiting Scientist.  Dr. Fayyad received the 1993 JPL Lew
>Allen Award for Excellence in Research, and the 1994 NASA Exceptional
>Achievement Medal.   
>He was program co-chair of KDD-94 and KDD-95 (the First International
>Conference on Knowledge Discovery and Data Mining).  He was general chair of
>KDD-96, is editor-in-chief of the journal "Data Mining and Knowledge
>Discovery," and co-editor of the new MIT Press book (1996) "Advances in
>Knowledge Discovery and Data Mining."  His research interests include
>knowledge discovery in large databases, data mining, machine learning,
>statistical pattern recognition, and clustering.  
>
>DINNER & AI
>
>NaiF members and non-members are invited to come early and order your own
>dinner from the College Club's delicious and economical menu.  The College
>Club offers free beer and some soft drink selections to Club members and
>their guests (that includes all NaiF program participants) during their
>happy hour" from 5 to 7 p.m.  Why not come directly from work (please arrive
>by 5:30 p.m.) and join the NaiF Board, NaiF members and friends in a great
>dinner before the evening program?  To aid in their planning, the College
>Club requires a count of the NaiF dinner participants.
>R.S.V.P. for the dinner only to Dave Ault (DAAult at Brigadoon.com
><mailto:DAAult at Brigadoon.com> , or 206-783-2917) by Noon on Wednesday,
>November 12th, 1997.
>
>SOCIAL HOUR
>
>Come early (or join us after dinner) and network with other AI professionals
>and enthusiasts during our social hour from 6:00 to 7:00 p.m.  NaiF provides
>complimentary coffee and sodas during the social hour and program
>presentation.
>
>DIRECTIONS TO COLLEGE CLUB
>
>FROM THE SOUTH -
>*	Take the Madison Street exit from I-5.
>*	Turn left (west) at the light onto Madison St.
>*	Turn left (south) at the second light onto 5th Avenue.
>*	Turn left immediately into the garage under the College Club.
>
>	FROM THE NORTH -
>
>*	Take the Union Street exit from I-5.
>*	Turn left (south) onto 5th Avenue.
>*	After Madison St. turn left into garage under the College Club.
>
>
>	NaiF BOARD & OFFICERS
>
>	Dave Ault, Ph.D.   
>	Frank Christopherson, Ph.D.
>	Paul Gianattasio (President)
>	Robin Gianattasio (Secretary)
>	Al Leichner, C.P.A. (Treasurer)
>	Rae Mackay
>	Dan Mahler (Vice President)
>	Mike Michaels, Ph.D.
>	Philip Murphy, Ph.D.
>	Brian Weisbrod
>
>
>	NaiF ACTIVITIES
>
>*	To volunteer for NaiF activities please contact NaiF President Paul
>Gianattasio at <Topper at Halcyon.com <mailto:Topper at Halcyon.com> >.
>*	NaiF gives AI practitioners a forum to share their experiences and
>results.  Interested?  Contact Program Director Dr. Dave Ault at
><DAAult at Brigadoon.com <mailto:DAAult at Brigadoon.com> >.
>
>For additional information on NaiF's activities please connect to our WWW
>Web Site.
>
>CONTACTING NaiF
> 
>P.O. Box 181                            
>Bellevue, WA, 98009-0181   
>  
>World Wide Web Site:
>	http://www.halcyon.com/topper/naif.htm
><http://www.halcyon.com/topper/naif.htm> 
>If you know of others who would like to be included on NaiF's e-mail
>distribution list, with their permission, please forward their name and
>e-mail address to the sender of this message.
>David A. Ault, Ph.D.                	<DAAult at Brigadoon.com
><mailto:DAAult at Brigadoon.com> >
>P.O. Box 31864                        
>Seattle, WA 98103-1864	 (206) 783-2917
>
>
>
>






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 17 00:12:08 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:12:08 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0952d88bc56@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0959a3b462b@[207.167.93.63]>



At 11:53 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:


>> Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia could
>> use it right now.
>
>I am going to actively work on trying to get people like RSA to export
>their chip, but not necessarily for the drug trade.
>


I'll just focus on this one point for now....

The "but not necessarily for the drug trade" shows up what I think is a
common misconception: that "good users of crypto" can be distinguished from
"bad users of crypto."

("But not necessarily for" has another interpretation, that strong crypto
is not being developed _for_ the drug trade. This is really the same
point--who will use strong crypto is not something easily controlled.)

The thoughtful officials who decide crypto policy (there are some) actually
understand the fallacy of this notion. They understand that once
"unbreakable crypto" is widely available, that once secure phones are for
sale at every electronics store, their is no way to distinguish good users,
e.g., freedom fighters, from bad users, e.g., terrorists. Or Oceania users,
who are our allies, from Eastasia users, who are our enemy (this week).

Those of us who support liberty, personal choices, and freedom from state
control understand this, too. We understand that strong crypto will help
black marketeers keep secrets and avoid surveillance just as it will help
civil rights groups.

How else could it be?

I embrace the use of strong crypto by the "underworld" for the simple
reason that historically this has been a major vector for the spread of new
technologies. And it tends to undermine governments. And most of what is
declared to be contraband, or illegal to consume, is no violation of the
real rights of others.

(I have used the same sig, with only minor modifications, for more than
five years.  The inclusion of "black markets, collapse of governments" was
deliberate.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Nov 17 00:14:25 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:14:25 +0800
Subject: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711170804.AAA02434@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Thu, Nov 13, 1997 at 05:59:51AM -0000, [Nerthus] wrote:
>[...]
>> 
>> "I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, 
>> or give me death." -- Patrick Henry
>> 
>> What is life without liberty?  Abject slavery.  Any sane man would rather
>> die than be a slave.
>
>It makes nice rhetoric, but this is simply not true, you know.  Most 
>people correctly evaluate that you have no chance for freedom at all 
>if you commit suicide, whereas a slave *does* have a chance.

Assuming he recognizes that he *is* a slave.  Most people are oblivious
to this fact.

>But of course we know from game theory that being completely
>predictable can be a weakness.  So having a certain percentage of the
>population who will behave irrationally is probably necessary for the
>health of a society.  But if too many people act irrationally, 
>society will disintegrate.  (By "irrational" here I am referring to 
>behaviour clearly contrary to your own survival.)

'Tis true.  War is a perfect example of what happens when too many
people act irrationally.

I'm interested in avoiding war without becoming a slave in the process.
Anyone else?

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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=0zEn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jk at stallion.ee  Mon Nov 17 00:31:44 1997
From: jk at stallion.ee (Jyri Kaljundi)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:31:44 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971117102403.17390E-100000@nebula>



On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable."

Which reminds me of a cryptochip done here in Estonia, which does 768-bit
RSA encryption / key exchange and 10Mbps 128-bit IDEA. It should be fairly
easy to change RSA length to 1024 or 2048. If someone is curious about the
price I could find it out.

Jyri Kaljundi
jk at stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Mon Nov 17 00:31:49 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:31:49 +0800
Subject: Announcing a disposable remailer
Message-ID: <LEIKCCAFKCDKAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Announcing the Woodwose Remailer!

Instructions for Use:
Point a web browser to:

http://mailexcite.com/


Use the name woodwose and password jaguar7.

The buttons for operating the mailer page are clearly marked--I won't
bore anyone with trivia.

Since the username and password for this account have now been
publicly posted, anyone can use this account to send/receive email. 
Obviously anyone who can log in can read replies to your messages, and
delete them too.  PGP encrypted replies are highly recommended, and
don't count on getting replies too much.

The name under which this account was created is not my real name.

This is my nym-persistence key:

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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Mon Nov 17 00:34:10 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:34:10 +0800
Subject: Announcing a disposable remailer
Message-ID: <AIIPCPIBKDDKAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Announcing the Woodwose Remailer!

Instructions for Use:
Point a web browser to:

http://mailexcite.com/


Use the name woodwose and password jaguar7.

The buttons for operating the mailer page are clearly marked--I won't
bore anyone with trivia.

Since the username and password for this account have now been
publicly posted, anyone can use this account to send/receive email. 
Obviously anyone who can log in can read replies to your messages, and
delete them too.  PGP encrypted replies are highly recommended, and
don't count on getting replies too much.

The name under which this account was created is not my real name.

This is my nym-persistence key:

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From mitch at duzen.com.tr  Mon Nov 17 00:48:40 1997
From: mitch at duzen.com.tr (S. M. Halloran)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:48:40 +0800
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <199711121324.PAA14037@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
Message-ID: <199711170939.LAA27404@ankara.duzen.com.tr>



On 13 Nov 97, Paul Bradley <paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk> was found to have 
commented thusly:

> 
> > This 19-year old was way out of her league and not at all fit for 
> > child care activities. 
> 
> Obviously, but this isn`t the point in question.
>

I'd say it was entirely the question (or perhaps you can tell me the 
specific question you are addressing).  She was in court because there 
are certain people in this world whether it is appropriate to be 
physical in any manner--even when attempting to be (medically) 
helpful--with an infant, small child, perhaps even a minor.

> > I am a firm believer that baby care for 3 year 
> > olds and less should be licensed.  The requirements for the license 
> > would be minimal.  It just merely shows that you understand that babies 
> > less than 1 year of age often cry--some hardly at all, others damn near 
> > all the time--and that 97% of the time there is a reason that can be 
> > found and the solution implemented, and the other 3% of the time the 
> > reason is beyond our understanding, but things will just seem to take 
> > care of themselves.  
> 
> Wrong, there is no justification for licensing whatsoever, I suggest 
> parents taking on carers for their children agree a responsibility
> distribution for the welfare of the child, and have the good sense not to 
> employ inept unqualified childcare staff. The parents are much to blame 
> in the death of the child, particularly in this case because they were 
> both qualified doctors and did not notice the child was unwell.
> I can see a motivation for wanting better regulation, but it is attacking 
> the situation in the wrong way, more laws never help. A voluntary 
> organisation for childcare workers, admission to which depended on 
> fulfilling the requirements you outline above for your licence idea, 
> would be useful, concerned parents could simple ensure their chosen 
> applicant was a member of the organisation before hiring them. Mandatory 
> licensing is wrong.

Don't get me wrong...I am no socialist who is saying that govt is there 
to do everything for us.  You didn't read in any of my messages that I 
took away the ultimate responsibility from the parents, who are the 
last word in securing the best interests of their children.  I 
currently live in a society which might be an anarchist's dream in 
certain respects:  there is virtually no licensing whatsoever of the 
things you take for granted:  child care, operating a motor vehicle.  
(Actually there is a licensing system for drivers, but a law is only a 
law if it is enforced, and since enforcement is virtually nil or at the 
least haphazard).  I will support a mandatory licensing scheme for 
child care as long as the govt involves itself with licensing other 
less important matters that themselves supposedly require licensing:  
such as the practice of medicine or the practice of law or the practice 
of plumbing.  Licensing--in my eyes, is but a simple barrier to leap 
yet tough enough to show that you are serious about getting into this 
business.  I care less that barbers & surgeons & physicians & various 
other bloodletters, as well as the guy who knows that shit runs 
downhill and Friday is payday (the common electrician's joke about 
plumbers) are licensed than that someone (or some nongovt 
organization) has taken the first step for me and is willing to endorse 
the smiling face at my door who is to be entrusted with my spawn.  
Throw out ALL licensing schemes and then I'll consider de-regulation of 
barriers to child killers and molesters.

> 
> > The licensing procedure might also be a way of 
> > checking if you have the minimal temperment to deal with infants and 
> > small children.
> 
> No, this is of no value, I don`t have the right temperament to deal with 
> children, I am too easily made angry by them, this does not indicate I 
> would harm a child, I simply have the sense to recognise I am not suited 
> to caring for children.
> I do not see anyway how such a character judgement might be made, and by who?

I was overreaching when I said that the licensing procedure would 
involve a psychoanalysis or something like that.  The licensing 
procedure would only involve a simple test wherein you are asked 
questions about baby care and how you might respond to certain 
situations.  It might not even flunk the test-taker who said "If I see 
an incessantly screaming baby, I am most like to throw it through the 
wall."  The licensing procedure would be a way of informing or 
reminding someone about to undertake this task just what their 
liabilities are if something goes wrong and they were ignorant of the 
things they should have done.  In this case, the "check" on temperment 
is an inquiry into "how much do you really understand about what you 
are going to do?"

The licensing of medicine and law and plumbing is 
really nothing but an acknowledgement that you know how to conform to 
standard practice and are aware of the heresies of tradition and 
convention.  You might undertake to do something radical and 
unacceptable to your colleagues or the standards set by your 
professional society, but you are warned that you assume the blame if 
something goes wrong.

> 
> > What about the judge?  His first purpose is to make sure the law is 
> > followed, especially with respect to trial procedure.  But with the law 
> > is JUSTICE!  It has always been my belief that the ultimate goal of 
> > these sacred occasions is justice. 
> 
> And justice cannot be served when an appointed official can overturn or 
> reduce a conviction, only an appeal should do this. Sure, if the jurors had 
> ignored proper procedure it is the duty of the judge to declare a 
> mistrial, that is entirely different from reducing a charge and basically 
> letting a convicted felon go free.
> 

Are you saying wisdom and justice can only be had when we put the 
decision to a larger number of people, presuming an appellate court is 
not itself the purview of a SINGLE appellate court justice?  Some 
anarchist on this list must have mentioned the principle of AMERICAN 
justice:  it is better to let nine guilty men go free than let one 
innocent man go to prison.  For better or worse, that is the American 
way.  You will note that an American judge (Roy Bean excepted) can 
overturn a guilty verdict, but not an acquittal.  It is rarely done 
anyway, since CNN's cameras are not in every courtroom and few foreign 
nationals get led in chains to American docks.

Do I think justice was done?  How the hell should I know!?  I was not 
in the courtroom, although I do admit to having made a judgement 
(guilty of involuntary manslaughter;  I correct an earlier statement 
where I said 'voluntary manslaughter').  The burden of this entire 
matter is now on the judge's shoulders, and if there is a God, may this 
God show as much mercy to the judge as he showed to Woodward.  (The 
parents can go to hell.)

> > I am rather curious to know where public opinion lies in the UK, just 
> > to get a fix on cultural differences.
> 
> The opinion is generally very simplistic, most people think she 
> didn`t do anything, and ask most people if she shook the child and they 
> will say she didn`t, even though Woodward herself doesn`t deny doing so.

The answer to the poll question probably is meant to reflect:  "did she 
shake the child TO DEATH?" and the masses are probably replying in this 
light.

> Most people don`t have any defined opinion on the judicial aspect of the 
> case as regards the actions of the judge, other than to be pleased he 
> freed her. The UK media spin has been very favourable to the Woodwards.
> I also think there is a certain amount of truth in the suggestion that 
> the defendant was convicted by the jury because of her traditional 
> British "stiff upper lip" reserve, wheras the Eappen family knew just how 
> to play the court with the usual American "Victim impact statement" 
> designed to be emotive and persuasive to the judge in gaining a high 
> sentence, of course in this case it had little effect. 

Despite what foreign nationals might believe, 99.9% of American judges 
(i.e., those not in the United States Supreme Court and in the federal 
court system) make it their duty to insulate themselves from public 
pressure on these matters.  Most of them truly don't give a damn what 
the American public thinks about them or that they may be reversed on 
appeal, assuming the judge truly believes in what he/she is doing.  I 
think the judge in the Woodward case saw through all the public 
relations campaigning and press offensive.  He knows how 
media-intensive the open American criminal and civil justice has 
become, especially if he has been on the bench 10 or more years, and he 
knows that the baby is dead and cannot be resurrected and he wants to 
see Woodward understand what happened and realize if she had any 
responsibility and also important, whether she is remoresful if she is 
to shoulder some of the blame.

I suspect he looked for all these things, and figured that Woodward has 
been sufficiently punished, truly guilty or not.  As for Americans 
not quite impressed with the "stiff upper lip":  I know quite a few 
Englishmen here who think that the reserved one is me.  I think "the 
stiff upper lip" is something the British tourism industry likes to 
promote, and that Prince Charles is told to maintain despite it going 
against his nature.

> I don`t know if you have seen a well publicised British trial (cameras 
> aren`t allowed into court rooms here so many never get to be high profile), 
> but although the system is much the same as regards proper procedure, the 
> atmosphere is entirely different. Something like the Eappen victim 
> statement would make a UK jury sick, and probably encourage an aquittal.
> 

I wasn't privy to the media blitz in the states (I can't even get CNN 
International here!) during the trial, but I rather suspect this crap 
also sickens quite a few Americans.  Not every black person in America 
wanted to set OJ free just because he was 'a bruh thuh goin' agin' the 
system.'  And not every white guy wanted to hang the double murderer 
either.  I know in the end however, that a British jury would set their 
minds on the case of an American defendant, not voting innocent just 
'cause the parents want to preen before the national press (and make 
book deals), and not voting guilty just cause American culture, if it 
exists, turns their stomach.


Mitch Halloran
Research Biochemist/C programmer/Sequoia's (dob 12-20-95) daddy
Duzen Laboratories Group
Ankara   TURKEY
mitch at duzen.com.tr






From remailer at htp.org  Mon Nov 17 01:08:32 1997
From: remailer at htp.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:08:32 +0800
Subject: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <19971117090501.6118.qmail@nsm.htp.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Thu, Nov 13, 1997 at 05:59:51AM -0000, [Nerthus] wrote:
>[...]
>> 
>> "I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, 
>> or give me death." -- Patrick Henry
>> 
>> What is life without liberty?  Abject slavery.  Any sane man would rather
>> die than be a slave.
>
>It makes nice rhetoric, but this is simply not true, you know.  Most 
>people correctly evaluate that you have no chance for freedom at all 
>if you commit suicide, whereas a slave *does* have a chance.

Assuming he recognizes that he *is* a slave.  Most people are oblivious
to this fact.

>But of course we know from game theory that being completely
>predictable can be a weakness.  So having a certain percentage of the
>population who will behave irrationally is probably necessary for the
>health of a society.  But if too many people act irrationally, 
>society will disintegrate.  (By "irrational" here I am referring to 
>behaviour clearly contrary to your own survival.)

'Tis true.  War is a perfect example of what happens when too many
people act irrationally.

I'm interested in avoiding war without becoming a slave in the process.
Anyone else?

Nerthus

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 17 01:21:18 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:21:18 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroad
Message-ID: <199711170905.KAA06467@basement.replay.com>



On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 at 21:45:14 -0800 Steve Schear quoted himself
as having written:

> "I've been wondering lately about the jurisdictional limits 
> of the FCC vis-a-vis the Article(s) of the Constitution from 
> which they derive their authority.  My understanding is that 
> the FCC is empowered under the Fed's interstate commerce 
> clauses.  If so, how valid is their jurisdiction over low 
> power and/or millimeter wave transmissions.  It seems a case 
> can be made that such transmissions represent little or no 
> possibility of interstate transmission."

Oh dear! If interstate commerce is indeed the constitutional 
excuse, er, basis for the FCC (and I don't know that it is),
then current doctrine would probably recognize the following
as providing FCC jurisdiction over micropower stations:

  *  Transmitter/components acquired in Interstate Commerce

  *  Electricity used was generated in part in another state

  *  Station owner deemed to have moved interstate to set up

  *  Air breathed by staff moved across state lines

  *  "Ether" inseparably integral with ether of other states

Once they assert that stuff, bashing a fellow radio station
employee with a burned-out klystron will be a federal crime.

Come to think of it, this might be a good time for anyone in
danger of being in a bar fight to make sure they are wearing
clothes manufactured entirely in the same state and to drink
only locally produced adult beverages.

The way things have been going the entire law enforcment and
criminal justice system could be co-opted by the feds, making
local police just deputized body-collectors for the federal
meat grinder.  Freeh's wet dream, I suppose.






From isparkes at q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de  Mon Nov 17 01:25:10 1997
From: isparkes at q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de (Ian Sparkes)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:25:10 +0800
Subject: How anonymous?
In-Reply-To: <145e152a12d12c409f67fd9e4aaa33f4@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971117102015.006a8080@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>



At 20:36 14.11.97 -0500, you wrote:
>> It seems that if Dick has a certain vocabulary,
>> uses a certain sentence structure, etc., and
>> regularly posts using a nym, that this form and
>> content could be traced to Dick, so the likelihood
>> of the post coming from him and not Jane would
>> be that much increased.
>
>This is true.  Probably most people know who I am.
>
>

If all anonymous posters make a concerted effort to write like Mr.
Nakatuji, not only will anonymity be assured, but the list will be a *lot*
funnier.


            \!!/
          ( o  o )  
+------ooO--(_)--Ooo-+---------------------------------------------------+
|  .oooO             | PGP5 Key Fingerprint:                             |  
| (    )    Oooo.    | 1F59 CADC 951E ADAD 5EA5  9544 FCCE 8E30 4988 551E|
|  \   (    (    )   | "Ian.Sparkes at T-Online.de" "Ian.Sparkes at ac.com"    |
|    \__)    )  /    |                                                   |
|           (__/     | Life empiricist and confused ethical hedonist     |
+--------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| I'm not your lawer, you're not my client. This is therefore not advice |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov 17 01:25:57 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:25:57 +0800
Subject: Hard To Read PGP 5.5 Key
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117012039.0074c0f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose at mailexcite.com>
posted a message with the PGP 5.5 key attached below.
My Eudora 3.0.3 plugin couldn't find any PGP-relevant information,
though I had no problem using PGPtray's Add Key From Clipboard.
PGP 5.0 indicates it's an RSA key and doesn't show anything special
about it like CMR :-)

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
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=7OWl
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBUAwUBNHAMZfthU5e7emAFAQG6kAH4zcbnumeZlyG6N5jP5TLPHVQYXM82P314
su1zAC/GnrlwtAnwgN8UtlYpr+Gkz8SkIK740DCgc+PRirzfF0K6
=c1lS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From steve at xemacs.org  Mon Nov 17 01:51:38 1997
From: steve at xemacs.org (SL Baur)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:51:38 +0800
Subject: Hard To Read PGP 5.5 Key
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117012039.0074c0f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <m2zpn34ztb.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>



Bill Stewart <stewarts at ix.netcom.com> writes:

> "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose at mailexcite.com>
> posted a message with the PGP 5.5 key attached below.
> My Eudora 3.0.3 plugin couldn't find any PGP-relevant information,

Maybe you need a more modern email program.

It worked fine for me with the (relatively ancient) Mailcrypt in
XEmacs.






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Mon Nov 17 01:54:39 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:54:39 +0800
Subject: KC is an Idiot
Message-ID: <HJJIHMFFBLHKAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:00 AM 11/16/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once. 
The
>perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing
a
>gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of
the
>cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
>guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I thought Kent was a liberal suckup shill, but now I realize he is
merely a stupid jackass. Unless Kent walks around in a semipermanent
state of rectal defilade, having a gun in his posession WOULD have
made a significant difference in each case. A certain amount of
situational awareness IS required to have your gun aimed at the
punk(s) before the punks get the drop on you. Anyone unable to be
aware of their surroundings deserves whatever they get--natural
selection removing stupid genes from the pool and all that.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNG/tXPVLt662DSXhAQF89Qf+PDc57MywdPm+Fq3UxUekkbwRs9Ltp8bo
1owPCO2Ea3rBTm7+sWBklDNbNc2RXA0Id6BZv3PDxkJtKvimsMiaQ9jfxk/x+tts
jNpZWSJnN3AJWdsqF1t9nD7A6cVl/MAS5gC6A16rNcG1IKVCB4Om6kD9e1Dc+d1W
ynzUxEQ7y0xbs5YnZvZtDSHjTPSSGEIDThBQMkuhXVH8Uy7MCTbLMhG9Y3alF+ET
ydxVqIPxZzKWV/vBC9DC9OkOymKoL/bAoZYk85qgUSk/B6Boj6SNizN9uYaUNB4n
eNtW4FL/tSuPxjJyDDZhyEiMGvvkjD4TawTTtOXWMt4lPHeTnjKuoQ==
=wGpo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Mon Nov 17 01:57:31 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:57:31 +0800
Subject: KC is an Idiot
Message-ID: <KLFBDPGIHNHKAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:00 AM 11/16/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once. 
The
>perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing
a
>gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of
the
>cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
>guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I thought Kent was a liberal suckup shill, but now I realize he is
merely a stupid jackass. Unless Kent walks around in a semipermanent
state of rectal defilade, having a gun in his posession WOULD have
made a significant difference in each case. A certain amount of
situational awareness IS required to have your gun aimed at the
punk(s) before the punks get the drop on you. Anyone unable to be
aware of their surroundings deserves whatever they get--natural
selection removing stupid genes from the pool and all that.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNG/tXPVLt662DSXhAQF89Qf+PDc57MywdPm+Fq3UxUekkbwRs9Ltp8bo
1owPCO2Ea3rBTm7+sWBklDNbNc2RXA0Id6BZv3PDxkJtKvimsMiaQ9jfxk/x+tts
jNpZWSJnN3AJWdsqF1t9nD7A6cVl/MAS5gC6A16rNcG1IKVCB4Om6kD9e1Dc+d1W
ynzUxEQ7y0xbs5YnZvZtDSHjTPSSGEIDThBQMkuhXVH8Uy7MCTbLMhG9Y3alF+ET
ydxVqIPxZzKWV/vBC9DC9OkOymKoL/bAoZYk85qgUSk/B6Boj6SNizN9uYaUNB4n
eNtW4FL/tSuPxjJyDDZhyEiMGvvkjD4TawTTtOXWMt4lPHeTnjKuoQ==
=wGpo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Mon Nov 17 01:57:47 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:57:47 +0800
Subject: KC is an Idiot
Message-ID: <GFDMOJOEKNHKAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:00 AM 11/16/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once. 
The
>perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing
a
>gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of
the
>cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
>guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I thought Kent was a liberal suckup shill, but now I realize he is
merely a stupid jackass. Unless Kent walks around in a semipermanent
state of rectal defilade, having a gun in his posession WOULD have
made a significant difference in each case. A certain amount of
situational awareness IS required to have your gun aimed at the
punk(s) before the punks get the drop on you. Anyone unable to be
aware of their surroundings deserves whatever they get--natural
selection removing stupid genes from the pool and all that.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNG/tXPVLt662DSXhAQF89Qf+PDc57MywdPm+Fq3UxUekkbwRs9Ltp8bo
1owPCO2Ea3rBTm7+sWBklDNbNc2RXA0Id6BZv3PDxkJtKvimsMiaQ9jfxk/x+tts
jNpZWSJnN3AJWdsqF1t9nD7A6cVl/MAS5gC6A16rNcG1IKVCB4Om6kD9e1Dc+d1W
ynzUxEQ7y0xbs5YnZvZtDSHjTPSSGEIDThBQMkuhXVH8Uy7MCTbLMhG9Y3alF+ET
ydxVqIPxZzKWV/vBC9DC9OkOymKoL/bAoZYk85qgUSk/B6Boj6SNizN9uYaUNB4n
eNtW4FL/tSuPxjJyDDZhyEiMGvvkjD4TawTTtOXWMt4lPHeTnjKuoQ==
=wGpo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Mon Nov 17 01:58:09 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:58:09 +0800
Subject: KC is an Idiot
Message-ID: <KPLJFDFLJMHKAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:00 AM 11/16/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once. 
The
>perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing
a
>gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of
the
>cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
>guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I thought Kent was a liberal suckup shill, but now I realize he is
merely a stupid jackass. Unless Kent walks around in a semipermanent
state of rectal defilade, having a gun in his posession WOULD have
made a significant difference in each case. A certain amount of
situational awareness IS required to have your gun aimed at the
punk(s) before the punks get the drop on you. Anyone unable to be
aware of their surroundings deserves whatever they get--natural
selection removing stupid genes from the pool and all that.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNG/tXPVLt662DSXhAQF89Qf+PDc57MywdPm+Fq3UxUekkbwRs9Ltp8bo
1owPCO2Ea3rBTm7+sWBklDNbNc2RXA0Id6BZv3PDxkJtKvimsMiaQ9jfxk/x+tts
jNpZWSJnN3AJWdsqF1t9nD7A6cVl/MAS5gC6A16rNcG1IKVCB4Om6kD9e1Dc+d1W
ynzUxEQ7y0xbs5YnZvZtDSHjTPSSGEIDThBQMkuhXVH8Uy7MCTbLMhG9Y3alF+ET
ydxVqIPxZzKWV/vBC9DC9OkOymKoL/bAoZYk85qgUSk/B6Boj6SNizN9uYaUNB4n
eNtW4FL/tSuPxjJyDDZhyEiMGvvkjD4TawTTtOXWMt4lPHeTnjKuoQ==
=wGpo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Mon Nov 17 02:14:45 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:14:45 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
Message-ID: <KAKPEOBNNKIKAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:37 PM 11/16/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Do you readJapanese import & export law book?
>If you don't read at yet,You must read it.

I bet that NoNookie's next post offers copies of Jap inport/export
laws for $50.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNHAPCfVLt662DSXhAQHt9wgAkGTzSVIZp2jXh0df22a7Ah3y8hVPyzb4
3kuPrFs4o6+lhdgX3pE6r9F213Hl7/qaDheB/u0bXgnlGtK6gEdL+QBtGg78myRe
F82sLxoNQHam31lZ7SRRqJ1GzlbPtPSWuHf3KwN7oaf7QaV/0mWViUYROCB94oqR
cpAPnXLzXmeUmHmw8tePSES8KRHA5Gt2MD4Sda2LrJ+RUFvnXw2sG9TCrXeDLFx2
d8LBocy8eCYugc/lowF6NY80EfcFZb1fY+0lAGHg0d1NydJg+x9XxjNR2HBLEmTB
+jF1b5gg6f9pVPrqqncmQWHLZAYUO0NuA4DHzHtM0cRh0V2bDBXTSg==
=guKp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov 17 02:16:22 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:16:22 +0800
Subject: Politically Correct Riding Hood
In-Reply-To: <199711162222.QAA29767@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117011300.032b526c@popd.netcruiser>

At 05:51 PM 11/16/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Eric Cordian <emc at wire.insync.net> writes:
>>
>> Author Unknown (to me at least) but it fits in well with our current
>> discussion of how not to offend various minority groups.
>>
>> -----
>>
>> There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived
>...
>
>This is the first story in a very funny little book called _Politically
Correct
>Bedtime Stories: Modern Tales for Our Life & Times_ by james Finn Garner,
>Macmillann, ISBN 0-02-542730-X, *** (C) 1994 by James Finn Garner ***.
>
>I also have his _Once Upon a More Enlightened Time: More Politically Correct
>Bedtime Stories_, Macmillan, ISBN 0-02-860419-9.  Both highly recommended.

Yeah, but the story in Garner's book didn't end with
>"I feel your pain," said the Wolf, and he patted the woodchopper on
>his firm, well padded ass, gave a little belch, and said, "Do you have
>any Maalox?"


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
-------------- next part --------------
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Name: pgp00009.pgp
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 190 bytes
Desc: "PGP signature"
URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/19971117/79a47753/attachment.obj>

From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Mon Nov 17 02:19:06 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:19:06 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
Message-ID: <JPOGPNJHEAJKAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:37 PM 11/16/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Do you readJapanese import & export law book?
>If you don't read at yet,You must read it.

I bet that NoNookie's next post offers copies of Jap inport/export
laws for $50.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNHAPCfVLt662DSXhAQHt9wgAkGTzSVIZp2jXh0df22a7Ah3y8hVPyzb4
3kuPrFs4o6+lhdgX3pE6r9F213Hl7/qaDheB/u0bXgnlGtK6gEdL+QBtGg78myRe
F82sLxoNQHam31lZ7SRRqJ1GzlbPtPSWuHf3KwN7oaf7QaV/0mWViUYROCB94oqR
cpAPnXLzXmeUmHmw8tePSES8KRHA5Gt2MD4Sda2LrJ+RUFvnXw2sG9TCrXeDLFx2
d8LBocy8eCYugc/lowF6NY80EfcFZb1fY+0lAGHg0d1NydJg+x9XxjNR2HBLEmTB
+jF1b5gg6f9pVPrqqncmQWHLZAYUO0NuA4DHzHtM0cRh0V2bDBXTSg==
=guKp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov 17 02:30:10 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:30:10 +0800
Subject: Hard To Read PGP 5.5 Key
In-Reply-To: <Bill Stewart's message of "Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:20:39 -0800">
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117022350.0328cb5c@popd.netcruiser>

At 01:47 AM 11/17/97 -0800, SL Baur wrote:
>Bill Stewart <stewarts at ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>> "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose at mailexcite.com>
>> posted a message with the PGP 5.5 key attached below.
>> My Eudora 3.0.3 plugin couldn't find any PGP-relevant information,
>
>Maybe you need a more modern email program.
>
>It worked fine for me with the (relatively ancient) Mailcrypt in
>XEmacs.

Try highlighting the public key block including the "Begin Public Key" and
the "End Public Key" lines, then click the extract key button.  I use
Eudora 3.0.3 and that worked fine.  I think the multiple keys in the
message may confuse the plug-in.


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: pgp00010.pgp
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 190 bytes
Desc: "PGP signature"
URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/19971117/a3a3f1ea/attachment.obj>

From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Mon Nov 17 02:38:03 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:38:03 +0800
Subject: [FWD] Finding a Face in the Crowd
Message-ID: <MEPLJOFKGBKKAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:09 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>Oh well Mr. Orwell, you've never believe how far we've come...
>
>"Mugspot" Can Find A Face In The Crowd - Award-Winning Face
Recognition
>Software Prepares to Go to Work in the Streets
>
>Computer "eyes" are now up to such tasks as watching for fugitives in
>airline terminals and other busy locations. A sophisticated
>face-recognition system that placed first in recent Army competitive
>trials has been given the added ability to pick out faces in noisy or
>chaotic "street" environments.
><...snip...>
>
>The USC/Bochum system also shone in tests conducted under substandard
>lighting conditions: It lost only a small fraction of its accuracy,
>while competitors showed drastic falloffs in less-than-brilliant
>illumination.
>
>The USC/Bochum system uses an unusual approach that mimics the
>technique scientists believe the brain uses to recognize images. Von
>der Malsburg, whose principal research interests lie in the
>investigation of living brains, in fact carried out much of the
>original research on the system as part of an attempt to understand
>human face recognition. His research led to creating a computer model
>of the way the brain's visual cortex processes information.

To make this work really well, link it to the
listening/locating/voiceprinting system described in the "Technology
Secures Gunfire" thread for the purpose of aiming the cameras for
greatest effect.  1984's "Big Brother" wasn't shit compared to this.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNHAN7PVLt662DSXhAQHK2wgAilb7w4bBZ8ieNxgT1w4LkPqVSHF0U/3E
TFcnrAQXMnIky7Pvh3PoU3+0GmPDCJ7hFwrXo3IkNFpTbqkEZkSYx2VCR1soVdSW
yUnYeq13A4aYwhuw17Rb+gp/iOm0mJdVhLcWyntHdRrNtjqPq1Kz1G7jidVYo/LS
PpP/W9Xf4JJdlz5Wi84skupl5oX3UC6lKC9ag5JU+VGcunmy0QkRkTZRCkIEBtvG
tGjKp5KOst8MdMHeGFmKKS3/ckBXwn9drUntOrJBARihuzXU9cXnTGMHqUkRAc59
RFPHYuVDeNmw4dHsZ4Dg01cC0AXPIytjbH9sMrWitmF6hJCLxydOcw==
=RbMM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Mon Nov 17 03:45:40 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:45:40 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <a0c766cd7eac94b862b5202e12d07b45@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bob Hettinga wrote:
>But then, logic, much less independent thinking, was never 
>Foucault's strong point.

I took this statement at face value, but out of curiousity I decided to find
out who this guy Foucault was.  The things I read about him lead me to 
believe otherwise.

Some quotes from Michel Foucault:

 "The judges of normality are present everywhere.  We are in
  the society of the teacher-judge, the doctor-judge, the 
  educator-judge, the 'social worker'-judge."

 "Prison continues, on those who are entrusted to it, a work
  begun elsewhere, which the whole of society pursues on each
  individual through innumerable mechanisms of discipline."

How quick we are to condemn those who step out of the "norm", no?  As soon 
as someone says something even slightly controversial, our inner censors 
rush in to separate ourselves from that person, to chastise him, to condemn 
him, regardless of the relationship we have developed with him in the past.

There is this unfortunate property in man that leads him to disassociate 
himself from the ideas he holds true if it is convenient, and especially if 
it will allow him to avoid the ridicule, hatred and disdain of others.  In 
the never ending "pursuit of happiness" we seek to make our lives so 
comfortable that we will give up that which we hold dearest.

 "The work of an intellectual is not to mould the political 
  will of others; it is, through the analyses that he does in 
  his own field, to re-examine evidence and assumptions, to 
  shake up habitual ways of working and thinking, to dissipate
  conventional familiarities, to re-evaluate rules and 
  institutions and...to participate in the formation of a 
  political will (where he has his role as citizen to play)."

In other words, to make people think.  This is the goal of the intellectual. 
To subtly influence the mass of humanity by appealing to their minds, their 
reason, instead of their base instincts and emotions.  Tolerance and 
acceptance are results brought about in us by communion with the mind, that 
which is greatest in us.  Hatred, persecution, violence are what we fall 
back upon when we cease to live to our fullest potential.  We degenerate 
into the animals we once were.

Once again, Bob wrote:
>The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
>absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
>independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

Perhaps one way of looking at it is that if you can't see the black and
the white, you're missing the whole picture.

After all, who would think that one would need to use an anonymous remailer
and a pseudonym to express oneself in a free and open society such as ours?

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNGu85OFWwZe05jcJAQGvYwgAlI0R3rJW67A9fFIs9ai5FY/jEAwV2oQ1
112bd/UmgfJ11DYPWUpG6GKt2XcBUd6UfYPnidY27hT+GGBTTKjAeF88z0XMu6Ep
jWUPllwb0Dw5or1o9IBg8ZAOPaAu/SMy9yVgcfaEbAqmfNken+dBhbfoAORjaLd8
BJSYCGs1Bw3Aw1gE7e3aJdjlYs/gKKNkoTQCkgkt6VBBCEQ7dXG1qbq2BTYS3py9
meK2utOM+YLG/+bJSoGRLT5oFiIpnYrkIwAziAtO7WAfydq+vwf8EsTdnX5mwUxg
THngvvyaAbZtVm/yObAPgifbfpfDbnfYOL/rrJQzGMXVJCUBNKTQKg==
=zZLC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com  Mon Nov 17 05:04:38 1997
From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:04:38 +0800
Subject: List
Message-ID: <199711170751_MC2-2873-FC51@compuserve.com>



I will appreciate to be included in your list.
Sincerely
Pier Carlo Montecucchi
Intelligence-Net Office
540 Beverly Ct. - suite 1
Tallahassee Fl 32301 - USA
Email: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com
phone: 212-208-2647
fax: 212-208-2648






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Nov 17 05:19:51 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:19:51 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971117102403.17390E-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <6RBBge8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Jyri Kaljundi <jk at stallion.ee> writes:

> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
> > And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable."
>
> Which reminds me of a cryptochip done here in Estonia, which does 768-bit
> RSA encryption / key exchange and 10Mbps 128-bit IDEA. It should be fairly
> easy to change RSA length to 1024 or 2048. If someone is curious about the
> price I could find it out.

This reminds me how I once did a project on a distinguished gentleman named
Jakubaitis. Is he still alive? Oh wait, he's in another country now. :-)

Yes, I think many people would be interested to see prices/availability,
please post them.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Nov 17 05:21:39 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:21:39 +0800
Subject: Joichi Ito's reputation as a pedophile (Was: Exporting child pornography from Japan)
In-Reply-To: <199711170700.QAA13617@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <icBBge7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Joichi Ito <jito at eccosys.com> writes:

> At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
> > My strong suspicion is that Japanese journalists and source are NOT the
> > best place to learn about Japanese SIGINT and COMINT capabilities. Not hard
> > to see some reasons for this.
>
> I will agree with you on this. I am not an expert. (I am not a traditional
> journalist either.) I was just stating my honest understanding and
> impression.

"Honest"?  Bwa-ha-ha!

This "journalist" (a colleague of the pathological liar Charlie Platt)
probably writes pornographic for Jap X-rated rags.

> > Please notify me, and us, of the forums where these engagements are
> > occurring. For starters, how about some e-mail addresses of cabinet
> > ministers and other officials.
>
> The main problem is that most of it is in Japanese.

Learn some English, asshole.

> > This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too
> > sensitive to engage in robust debate.
>
> This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust
> debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will
> probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me
> no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.

Ito-san's repuatation is that of a pedophile.  Japs don't export crypto
(that would upset the NSA) but they do export pictures of little Jap girls
being sexually molested.  Is Ito-san one of the major exporters of child
pornography from Japan, or is he one of the male models in those pictures?

Nuke the Yellow Peril (again)






From Biz-Man at Inteligence-9.com  Mon Nov 17 21:24:57 1997
From: Biz-Man at Inteligence-9.com (Biz-Man at Inteligence-9.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:24:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: -Make A Fortune In Foreclosures-
Message-ID: <17234426_149376>



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enclosing a check or money order for $29.95 plus$4.95 for S/H.

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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Nov 17 05:54:50 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:54:50 +0800
Subject: Politically Correct Riding Hood
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117011300.032b526c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <11BBge9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk at ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 05:51 PM 11/16/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >Eric Cordian <emc at wire.insync.net> writes:
> >>
> >> Author Unknown (to me at least) but it fits in well with our current
> >> discussion of how not to offend various minority groups.
> >>
> >> -----
> >>
> >> There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived
> >...
> >
> >This is the first story in a very funny little book called _Politically
> Correct
> >Bedtime Stories: Modern Tales for Our Life & Times_ by james Finn Garner,
> >Macmillann, ISBN 0-02-542730-X, *** (C) 1994 by James Finn Garner ***.
> >
> >I also have his _Once Upon a More Enlightened Time: More Politically Correct
> >Bedtime Stories_, Macmillan, ISBN 0-02-860419-9.  Both highly recommended.
>
> Yeah, but the story in Garner's book didn't end with
> >"I feel your pain," said the Wolf, and he patted the woodchopper on
> >his firm, well padded ass, gave a little belch, and said, "Do you have
> >any Maalox?"

I only looked at the _first few paragraphs.

Is there any stego meaning to the variations from the printed version? :-)

"Nuke the Yellow Peril (again).  Castrate the reputed pedophile Joichi Ito."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Nov 17 05:55:24 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:55:24 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <JPOGPNJHEAJKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <q5BBge10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



"Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose at mailexcite.com> writes:

> At 06:37 PM 11/16/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >Do you readJapanese import & export law book?
> >If you don't read at yet,You must read it.
>
> I bet that NoNookie's next post offers copies of Jap inport/export
> laws for $50.

I further bet that Ito-san will offer the same for $40, AND will bundle
in JPEG pictures of himself fucking a herd 14-year-old Jap schoolgirls.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Nov 17 05:56:05 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:56:05 +0800
Subject: Hey Punk!!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971105144332.28931B-100000@bambi.visi.com>
Message-ID: <TBDBge12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Josh Lynch writes:

> I just mailed Jason. I feel like an asshole about missing my third day.
> I haven't got any sleep since tuesday, and I haven't kept any food down
> since Subway yesterday. I have a nice fever, and I can't sleep because my
> stomach feels nautious (sp?). Well enough of my sob story, I think I made
> a great impression today (not) you'll probably be lucky to see me tomarrow
> if I get fired. Oh yeah, on top of all that I miss the metting that I
> needed to go to the most. Later
>
> josh
>
> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Super-User wrote:
>
> > Hey ya punk!!
> >
> > 	What's this crap about being sick??  Ya punk, wheere's the desire, the
> > ambition, the need to puke on your client's terminal??
> > 	We're headed out to Impressions Inc.  to do some Xinet shit and to talk
> > to the Xinet Rep.  Jason wanted you to come along to meet Xinet reps.
> > Ya better feel special 'cause I never got asked to meet any reps, I had
> > to corner'em and kick their ass to get a response.  Anyway, if you feel
> > good enough to come with, call Jason's cel @ 8674526 or the condo @
> > 9276596.
> >
> > 			Later,
> > 			Murray
> >
> >
> > P.S.- I made you an account on the SGI (josh, passwd:calvin1)
                                            ^^^^         ^^^^^^^
> >      IP:206.144.185.110
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Note the risks of sending passwords in cleartext and fucking up the
e-mail addresses so they end up in my orphan mailbox. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From user0105 at mallmaster1.com  Mon Nov 17 22:04:20 1997
From: user0105 at mallmaster1.com (user0105 at mallmaster1.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:04:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: See Ya Tomorrow
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@mallmaster1.com>


Hey there, what's going on.  I just signed up for this great web site,
and thought you would get a kick out of it.  Here is my 
password, check it out if you want. The video sex is unreal..

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/8873/
User name= 239949
Password= porn2

See you at the golf corse in the morning. 
 You better not be late this time.......
D
P.S. Tell Kathy to give my wife a call..
















From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Nov 17 06:37:53 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:37:53 +0800
Subject: [REPOST] Gary Burnore's Attack on Privacy
Message-ID: <199711171412.GAA08263@sirius.infonex.com>



If anyone doubts Gary Burnore's vindictive nature and his disregard for the
privacy of others, read this message from him where he dug up an old tax
lien filed against one of his critics and broadcast it worldwide on Usenet in 
order to embarass him and intimidate him into silence about Gary Burnore and
his abusive tactics:

--- BEGIN INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

Subject: Re: Monkey-boys position
From: gburnore at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:01:14 GMT 
Message-ID: <gburnoreE5Iqy2.H8C at netcom.com>
Organization: the home office in Wazoo, NE
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
References: <gburnoreE51xvo.2zK at netcom.com>
            <5doim6$32q$1 at monkeys.com> <twficE5G4HL.Fp9 at netcom.com>
            <wotanE5Gu0t.8Hv at netcom.com> <5drvl3$bvr$1 at monkeys.com>
 
Ronald F. Guilmette (rfg at monkeys.com) wrote:
{ In article <wotanE5Gu0t.8Hv at netcom.com>,  <Wotan> wrote:
{ >In article <twficE5G4HL.Fp9 at netcom.com>,
{ >Ty Fairchild <twfic at netcom.com> wrote while drinking:
{ >
{ >>Fortunately this thread will not be extended by any further follow from
{ >>monkeyboy.  His public pronouncement states his position.
{ >          
{ >Y'all mean bent over a post spreading his ass cheeks and yelling "Fuck
{ >me" to any passing entity?
 
{ Atta boy Wotan, my little BaBaBasicks bean brain.  Jump in again any time.
 
What say each time you slam DataBasix for no reason, we post some
publicly available information about monkeys.com.  HEre's the first try:
 
 
+ 
+Filing Number:          90226822 
+Document Type:      STATE TAX
+Filing Date:               04/30/90
+Amount:                    $157,705
+Debtor:                      GUILMETTE, RONALD F, <ssn deleted>
+                                   550 PAULARINO AV, COSTA MESA, CA
+Court/County:           ORANGE REC, ORANGE, CA
+Certificate:                90114005621 
+Tax Authority:           FRANCHISE TAX BOARD
+Release Number:     90431912
+Release Date:          08/15/90
+
+Filing Number:          336573L
+Document Type:      STATE TAX
+Filing Date:               04/27/90
+Amount:                    $157,705
+Debtor:                      GUILMETTE, RONALD F, <ssn deleted>
+                                   550 PAULARINO AV, COSTA MESA, CA
+Court/County:           SANTA CLARA REC, SANTA CLARA, CA
+Certificate:                90114005622
+Tax Authority:           FRANCHISE TAX BOARD
+Release Number:    4451377L
+Release Date:         08/10/90
+
 
 
More where this came from. Yu wanna keep slamming DataBasix for no good
reason?
 
--
gburnore at databasix.com                       mailto:gburnore at databasix.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    What's another word for Thesaurus?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary L. Burnore                       |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3  
DataBasix                             |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3
San Francisco, CA                     |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3
                                      |  ][3 3 4 1 4 2  ]3^3 6 9 0 6 9 ][3
http://www.databasix.com              |     Official Proof of Purchase
===========================================================================

--- END INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

--






From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Nov 17 07:09:51 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:09:51 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199711171450.GAA08163@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias at alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster at remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer at replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer at cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config at nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix at squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config at weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman at cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer at anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config at anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer at bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer at neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa at weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain at notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config at anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer at replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer at neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From declan at well.com  Mon Nov 17 07:28:58 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:28:58 +0800
Subject: Korean "red alert" -- national ID cards proposed
Message-ID: <v0300782cb0960e7c0959@[204.254.22.5]>




> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:04:32 +0900
> From: Ko Youngkyong <frontist at member.sing-kr.org>
> Subject: RED ALERT of Privacy in Korea!
>
> Dear Comrads,
>
> About the Electronic National ID Card project,
> situations gets rough in South Korea.
> The ruling party, Shin-han-kuk Dang, and some politicians
> of conservative Opposition party has passed related laws
> on ID card project on November 13 in Domestic Affair Session.
> It was a sudden terror to us and to the privacy of Korean people.
> In Korea, for a law to be passed, it must be passed in the partial
> session of National Assembly and be finally determined by
> whole conference(I don't assure whether it correct or not).
> Whole conference will be held on November 17.
> It may be difficult to stop passing of the law, though we lobby
> some M.P.s.
> If the law should be passed, we will and must begin a long,
> harsh struggle to the denial movement of ID card.
> We think it may take several years like Australia.
> We, Task Force against Electronic ID Card, and privacy advocates
> in Korea are planning demonstrations within 2,3 days and some other
> actions of expressing protest. We will do whatever we can.
>
> Keep your eyes on! Please inform your fellows of this crisis of privacy
> and help us in every way you can.
> It's RED ALERT of privacy in Korea.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Korean NGO Task Force against Electronic National ID Card
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Homepage URL:   http://kpd.sing-kr.org/idcard/
> E-mail : frontist at member.sing-kr.org
> Phone : +82-2-855-1913
> Fax : +82-2-858-1913








From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Mon Nov 17 08:16:28 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:16:28 +0800
Subject: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <608de478834f3fb5b4a7cd41ff59a717@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Steve Schear wrote:
>Many injustices follow from form and scale of government.  I won't be the 
>first to point out that as the number of people, geography and ethnic 
>diversity increase governance becomes ever more difficult and as is the 
>balancing of individual liberty over the "overiding interests of the 
>society."  The solution is clear, the method of its emergence is not.  
>Smaller geo-political units.  I doubt that our pressing social and political 
>problems can be adequately delt with until the scale of governance is 
>changed, but this requires those in the center to give up much and 
>historically this has rarely if ever happened without bloodshed.

Monty Cantsin wrote elsewhere:
>One of the things that appeals to me about the tools the cypherpunks
>are developing is the likelihood that they will end war.  What
>percentage of wars are instigated and organized by governments?  That
>is, how many wars can we think of in which a war originated in the
>population of country and dragged its unwilling government into the
>fray?  I cannot think of any.

War is often used to justify the existence of government.  If politicians 
can convince the people that they have an enemy that must be destroyed, the 
people willingly give their lives and livelihood to the government to fight 
this assumed enemy.  War feeds the expansion of a government's power over 
its citizens.  After the war has ended, the government maintains this 
newfound power.

Interestingly, the 20th century, which has been the bloodiest in recorded 
history, has also been the century of failed experiments in large-scale 
government.  The former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia are clear examples of 
what happens when different groups of people (who would rather not be 
associated) are forced to live together at the point of a gun.  The 
disolution of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, and the subsequent violence 
and unrest clearly illustrate the results of forced association.

Governments are impedements to the free and voluntary interaction among the 
world's people.  Look how vehemently governments attempt to block the flow 
of certain types of information to their people.  Trade barriers, censorship 
and control of communications channels are three of the tools governments 
use to restrict a free global society.

The trend now is toward smaller political units.  The recent dissolution of 
former socialist nation-states is one example.  The growth in the "State 
Sovereignty" movement in America is another.  "Those in the center", as 
Steve refers to them, may not have any choice about giving up what they 
have.  Their only hope would be to spread enough lies (via the mass media 
channels) to convince the majority of people to back them, in another war of 
course.

We must remember that people are reluctant -- and for good reason -- to go 
to war.  Common sense prevails, though it may not be exercised all that
often.  War can be avoided if the truth of the situation is revealed to the
populace: the spotlight shone on the puppetmasters.

At the same time, clear solutions to the problems that have accumulated due 
to blind faith in an unworkable system have to be presented and implemented. 
The transition will not be easy.

We have our work cut out for us.

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNG85MeFWwZe05jcJAQFddAf/boDWEY9HU5OxiRkOthDmEOn6fGbe/m/q
r1QJz26TYQ+VH/3fMjbHeTpcOv9LwPPFpFx0HgW+FQOjFs5cBDUfbAZCliq8mDb8
CLXLmqh/DeFEPtMDMHHMakIYxT+uL06vR2jWXyvQFHQZLX/D0PvLTDf2/PFN2B3A
yKln3C5yDcO54aHmlWjMz3nBVMBokGYcrvqUj8qlTX29B7CVq3bFPlbtm98mUhrD
tpHCAHgLugjocNcoKPcNZblB0G52SP6uN/gvQj9fm0dixqKZbMjp6VHWpTAkQ2HR
dfGlpcEZz7rnf3teqOMHlY858Z0Dkax+/9GvBbBSv8yGcOeaZRQuow==
=eqJh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Nov 17 08:16:34 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:16:34 +0800
Subject: Secret No More: FBI Files
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971117160747.00c5ebc0@pop.pipeline.com>



An informative site, titled "Secret No More," lists FBI 
files of 2000 targets compiled by Michael Ravnitzky from
FOIA requests:

   http://www.crunch.com/01secret/01secret.htm

Happy to report that at least three of the targets (one named
thrice) dragnetted this rioter in younger days at Columbia, 
maybe others have shagged me since.







From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Nov 17 08:37:46 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:37:46 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711170700.QAA13617@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711171623.QAA01215@server.test.net>




Joichi Ito <jito at eccosys.com> writes:
> At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too
> > sensitive to engage in robust debate.
> 
> This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust
> debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will
> probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me
> no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.

I am not sure why discussion should lower your reputation capital,
unless open discussion is frowned upon by those who you wish to
influence.  Perhaps you fear that you will be dismissed as a
cypherpunk, a hardliner, whilst you are trying to appear less radical.

> > So, Joichi, why don't you stir the shit on this one? And I don't mean with
> > "constructive engagement." That's a synonym for inaction.
> 
> Sorry. I am stiring the shit way too hard already. Not enough for you,
> I'm sure, but my risk is already rather high just talking to you here. :-)

I am pleased that you are discussing with us crypto politics in
Japan... we have few contributors from Japan in the past.  The lower
protection for political speech in your country I always suspected was
the problem.  Dissidents who speak out against the government line in
Japan I suspect are taking bigger risks than in the US, UK, and
Europe.

> > Declare war on the NSA. You've several times trumpetted the Japanese
> > Constitution as supporting basic rights even more than the Amerikan
> > Constitution does, so this is your chance to say "Fuck the National
> > Security State."
> 
> Nope. You're not going to catch me declaring war on the NSA on this
> mailing list. ;-P

I would've thought that the NSA's world policeman attempts would be
resented by Japanese secret service types.  I get the impression there
are tensions between EU, UK and US secret services.

> So... I am a wimpy moderate, but at least I'm talking to you folks.
> If you want me to shit or get off the pot, I think I'll get off the
> pot.

Well be careful of doing deals with the devil.  Several crypto
lobbying groups in the US some suspect did more harm than good.  These
groups lost their no compromise stance, and ended up helping to draft
laws to ban crypto because they thought they could make the laws
mildly less obnoxious by doing so.  It may even have been the case
that they had a net negative impact on freedom of crypto.  Making
deals with politicians is a dangerous game to play.  They are
opinionless power brokers, and will just use you as a bargaining chip.

> P.S. I am going out of town for two days and may not have
> net connectivity. So, if I don't respond to something, it's not
> because I'm hiding. If you don't hear from me in 3 days, call John
> Markoff for me. ;-P

Don't know how things work in Japan, but I hear from people who've had
spooky attentions that the best protection against spooks is harsh
bright lights: they hate publicity.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Nov 17 09:20:26 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:20:26 +0800
Subject: [REPOST] Gary Burnore's Harassment of the Huge Cajones Remailer
Message-ID: <199711171701.JAA23788@sirius.infonex.com>








From kent at songbird.com  Mon Nov 17 09:21:51 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:21:51 +0800
Subject: KC is an Idiot
In-Reply-To: <HJJIHMFFBLHKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <19971117090946.16451@songbird.com>



On Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 01:51:05AM -0700, Benjamin Chad Wienke wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 01:00 AM 11/16/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once.  The
> >perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing a
> >gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of the
> >cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
> >guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)
> 
> I thought Kent was a liberal suckup shill, but now I realize he is
> merely a stupid jackass. Unless Kent walks around in a semipermanent
> state of rectal defilade, having a gun in his posession WOULD have
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nice phrase.

> made a significant difference in each case. A certain amount of
> situational awareness IS required to have your gun aimed at the
> punk(s) before the punks get the drop on you. Anyone unable to be
> aware of their surroundings deserves whatever they get--natural
> selection removing stupid genes from the pool and all that.

You quite clearly don't know what you are talking about, little boy. 
My Dad got me my first gun when I was around 8, 40 some years ago.  By
the time I was your emotional age (12) I knew that guns weren't toys. 

Say "hi" for us, to Tinkerbell and the rest of the crowd in Nevernever
Land. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Nov 17 09:44:12 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:44:12 +0800
Subject: [REPOST] Gary Burnore's Harassment of the Huge Cajones Remailer
Message-ID: <199711171711.JAA24770@sirius.infonex.com>



Since Gary Burnore has been making posts in the alt.privacy.anon-server NG
about how remailers are supposedly being "abused" in order to "forge"
articles in his name, I figure it's time to repost a Usenet article from
Jeff Burchell, operator of the Huge Cajones Remailer, about Gary Burnore's
harassment which ultimately convinced him to shut down the remailer, in
order to document Mr. Burnore's modus operandi, in case he attempts a
similar attack against another remailer:

--- BEGIN INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

Subject:      Jeff's Side of the Story.
From:         toxic at hotwired.com (Jeff Burchell)
Date:         1997/07/01
Message-ID:   <5pbnoe$f29$1 at re.hotwired.com>
Followup-To:  alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,
              alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,
              alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,
              news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Organization: Content, Inc
Newsgroups:   alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,
              alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,
              alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,alt.cypherpunks,
              comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc


Anonymous (nobody at REPLAY.COM) wrote:

: > Only Jeff knows the whole story.

Actually, not even I know the whole story.  If I truely knew who it was
that was orchestrating this attack, it would have stopped, one way or
another.  The problem is, I don't know all the players (I have some
suspicions, which I'll elaborate on further in a little bit) but I don't
_really_ know who did it, and I really don't know why (other than a "I
don't like remailers, I think I'll shut one down").  And I really don't
know the background or what precipitated this.

: > But I have to ask. Could this
: > just be an" I'm sick of this shit, f**k it, I quit, who needs this
: > aggravation, I'll just pull the plug and go have a beer" reaction
: > to what really seems like a fairly small problem.

It is not a small problem anymore when you're getting >200 complaint
messages a day, plus 5-10 phone calls to your employer (and your
employer's legal department).  Fortunately, Wired is a very progressive
company, and supported my efforts to provide anonymity, but our lawyers
aren't paid to answer phone calls on my behalf.  Running a remailer is
one thing... getting harassed at work is an entirely different matter, and
getting a THIRD PARTY harassed at work is yet another one.

But yes, The ultimate "take this thing down" decision was one made
because I was sick of this bullshit.  But you know what?  I volunteer
my time, my computer equipment, and bandwidth that is given to me
as part of my salary.  I do (well did) all of this because I believe
that anonymity is a right, and because I have the capabilities of
helping to provide anonymity to the masses.  When the remailer was
self-sufficient (before the attacks started), it took maybe 10 minutes
of my time a day, and minimal resources on my machine.  Afterwards,
even after I put in the auto-blocking feature (send a blank message
to a particular address and get your address blocked) and the
autoresponder on the remailer-admin account, I was still getting >100
messages a day reporting abuse... almost all of it spam-bait related.
I receive no benefit from running the remailer (I don't even use it
myself), and when it becomes a fairly major hassle without any
rewards, the decision is not a hard one to make.

And frankly, I already have enough to do, and get enough mail on a
daily basis (at last check it was hovering around 600 messages/day).
As soon as the remailer started taking up a lot of my time, it became
time to rethink why I was running it.  The moment that the spam-baiter
started alerting people who had been baited, and telling them to
contact me, it became personal.  And I don't have time to get into
personal pissing-contests.  Yes, I took the easy way out, but that
was my choice to make.

Anyone who doesn't run a remailer has very little right questioning my
 choice, because you have no idea what precipitated it.  Most people
reading this group have the capabilities of running a remailer (it only
takes a POP account and a Windows machine to run the Winsock remailer),
but very few of us actually do.  Why is that?  I've been running huge.
cajones for just under 2 years, and it averaged just over 3000 messages
a day, so my remailer was responsible for about 2 million anonymous
messages in its lifetime.  I think I've done my part (at least for now),
it's time for someone else to do theirs.  If we had 15 disposable remailers
that operated for 2-3 months each before moving/going away, we'd have
paths for millions more anonymous messages.  And isn't that what we're
really trying to provide?

: The first was doing questionable things, like installing content-based
: filtering in an attempt to placate the attacker.  Giving in to the demands

When I first put the filters in, I was entirely unaware of exactly what
the hell was going on.  It seemed that someone had a bone to pick with
databasix, and was using the remailer to get databasix harassed by
third parties.  So, Burnore's complaint seemed reasonable at the time, and
I tried to come up with a way to block spam-bait abuse, without blocking
anything else (like a reply to burnore in Usenet).

See, if someone was doing to me what they appeared to be doing to Burnore,
I would be pissed.  I figured placating him would be the best thing to
do.  In hindsight, I was wrong, but at the time, it seemed like the correct
decision.  (Also at the same time, the SPA threatened Wired with a
lawsuit because of The MailMasher, so things were a little tense between
me and the legal department already, I didn't need to make them any worse.)

The final content-based-filter (there was an interim one) looked for the
 following things:

1. Any address at databasix (Yes, at the request of Burnore)
2. Any address from my destination block list
3. More than 5 addresses in a row, one line each, without other content
   in-between.
4. Patterns of particular Usenet groups.
5. Particular subject lines.

If any THREE of these items were spotted, the message got thrown into a
reject bin.  I periodically examined the reject bin, and can personally
attest that it didn't block ANYTHING that it wasn't intended to.  (The
test posts reeked of spam-bait to me, and I believe were correctly
blocked)

FWIW, the filters were removed about a week ago.

Because the filters were looking for a specific form of ABUSE, and not
just doing basic pattern matches, I don't consider them to be "content
filters".  I would think that just about anyone would agree that
posting lists of email addresses to mlm newsgroups would qualify
as abuse, and _should_ be blocked.   Blocking of this nature does NOT
restrict free speech (or at least that is not the intentions of it), and
it would keep the remailer out of lawsuit territory.

See, the big problem with lawsuits is not the fact that _I_ don't want
to be sued.  The problem is that anyone with half a brain can determine
that Wired is somehow related to any remailer that I am running on their
bandwidth.  Wired has deeper pockets than Mr. Burchell, so they are a
much better group to sue... and they are a lot more willing to give
in to a threat than I am.

: What I *MIGHT* have done was to respond as follows:
:
:    Your legal demands are unacceptable.  I'd rather close the remailer than
:    compromise its integrity to suit your whims.  But understand this -- unless
:    you withdraw your demands, I will not only close the remailer but also make
:    damn sure all of its users know exactly who forced me to take this action!

I did respond in a fashion much like this, about a week before the attacks
started coming.  Mr. Burnore requested a copy of my (non-existant) logs.
I told him to get me something in writing, signed by his lawyer that
stipulated that the logs were confidential, and not to be revealed to
anyone outside of the lawyer's office.

I received a letter from Belinda Bryan.  She is not registered with the
State Bar of California, and is thus, not a California lawyer.  I then
ignored the request, and forwarded the correspondence to the State
Attorney General's office (as impersonating a lawyer in CA is defined
as fraud with extenuating circumstances).  They have been working with
me and the San Francisco DA's office.  Look out DataBasix... I'm not done
with you yet.

: The second mistake I perceive is not fully disclosing the circumstances that
: brought down Huge Cajones, and *NAMING NAMES*.  That way, even if the remailer
: shuts down, other remailer operators will learn about the tactics employed
: against it, know *WHO* made the demands, etc.  IOW, when you get an innocent
: sounding, polite complaint from xxxx at yyy.com alleging "abuse", here's the
: scenario that's likely to follow ...  (It's not too late to make that
: disclosure, Jeff.)

In fact, now is the time to.  Making a disclosure like this while I
was still running the remailer would have probably been a bad move.
Now that the remailer is closed, I'll name the names that I've got.

Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an
anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
coincidences of timing.

I still don't know what the hell is going on with DataBasix, Wells Fargo
and Gary Burnore, but I suspect that someone used huge.cajones to say
something extremely unflattering about Burnore (from what I can tell,
he had it coming).  Burnore then decided that he would make things
difficult for me.  First, he wanted the user who had posted something
"inflammatory" about him revealed.  When I told him that I couldn't
do that, he carried on about mail logs and identifying the host that
a message came from (the usual).  I didn't explain to him that my
machine keeps logs, but not anything involving a *@cajones.com
address.  He then requested the logs, which I denied (and told him
to get his lawyer to send a request...)

I'll admit, after my second or third contact with Mr. Burnore, I
no longer was particularly civil with the guy.  He's a kook, and
really didn't deserve my courtesy.

Between the time he first contacted me, and the time I received the
letter from Belinda Bryan, is when the baiting of databasix addresses
began (slowly, with just a few posts).  After a while, I received
requests from the other members of DataBasix (including William McLatchie
(sp) (aka wotan) who actually seems to be a remailer supporter (?)).

It was at this point that I realized something was completely amiss.
I asked McLatchie to please tell me the story of DataBasix, and he
said that he was going to, but never did.  Anyone who can tell me
the story is invited to do so.

As a side note (and just because I am naming names).  Peter Hartly
(hartley at hartley.on.ca) yesterday spam-baited me.  Fortunately,
I've got good filters in place.

As another side note, I've seen nothing to make me believe that Belinda
Bryan is even a real person.  Anyone?

: > Given the importance of what Jeff was doing, I hope that he
: > did all that he could, before declaring defeat. If that is the case,
: > I commend him for a job well done. If not, why?

I can't claim to have done _everything_ that I could have done, but I
did certainly make an effort.  I'm not willing to go to court to defend
a practice like spam-baiting (and given the current public-opinion situation
and impending anti-UCE legislation, this would be a terrible test-case).

I am not new to threats of lawsuit, even ones that come from legitimate
lawyers.  About 8 months previous, I was threatened repeatedly by the
legal wing of the "Church" of Scientology.  I answered with a letter
from my lawyer that explained the policies of the remailer, and
threatened a harrassment lawsuit if the "Church" contacted me again asking
for information (that they now knew I didn't have) about a remailer user.
They complied, and went away (and haven't been too difficult with
other remailer operators lately).

: Agreed.  Otherwise, these "asshole(s)" are simply going to do it all over
: again against another remailer, eventually taking them all down one at a time.
Except that right now, new remailers are springing up.  If we could get
three more online for every one shut down, it wouldn't much matter, would
it?  I may very well end up running a mailer again in the future, but if
I do, it will probably be either a throwaway exit-man or a truely anonymous
middleman (i.e. nobody will actually know who is running it).  It also
will probably be hosted outside of the United States (Floating in
international waters with a sat feed would be nice).

: It's time for them to stand up and say "Next time you come for one of us
: he's
: not going quietly as the others have.  You'll have to face ALL of us at once,
: instead."

Aah, you imagine much more solidarity among remailer operators than actually
exists.  It doesn't work that way.  It would be nice if it did, but many of
us are running remailers on borrowed bandwidth (or have other "situations"
to be concerned about).  Being the squeaky wheel is not always a good idea
for many of the operators (most of whom try to keep a low profile).

The reality is, for all the good they do, remailers are tools that can
very easily be abused.  And, as the internet gets more and more commonplace,
the average Joe and Joesphine, who don't have the strict Cyber-Libertarian
viewpoints that are shared by most of us old-timers, will start to wonder
just why anyone would want to run a service that allows anyone to speak their
mind without fear of reprisal.  When you get people with more extreme
viewpoints (the ones who have a really legitimate need for anonymity) posting
all kinds of stuff to all kinds of places, it will get the attention of
Middle-America, which will then bring it to the attention of legislators.
Any time a legislator can say "This is a blow to Child Pornographers and
others who hide behind anonymity to commit crimes without fear of reprisal"
you can guarantee that the bill will pass.

When that happens, we're in trouble.  America is scared of computers, and
remailers are thought to be havens for the big 3 (Terrorists, Organized
Crime and Child Pornographers).  Now that the spammers are involved
(spammers possibly being hated more than the big 3), most users are
exposed to anonymous remailers in negative ways (Imagine what you would
think if the first time you heard about the existance of remailers, it
was because someone had spam-baited you, and then told you about it).

The right to anonymity in the US will be legislated away within 18 months,
partially because of spam.  I do hope there's a _good_ test case waiting,
and someone willing to fight it to the end, but I have my doubts.  Ultimately
the remailer network will be forced to move offshore, the way Crypto
development currently has.

Don't like the News?  Go out and make some of your own.

-Jeff

|o|                                                   |o|
|o| Jeff Burchell                     toxic at wired.com |o|
|o|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -|o|
|o|     I am not speaking for anyone but myself.      |o|
|o|                                                   |o|

--- END INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

This article is archived in DejaNews under their "old" database if you
wish to verify its authenticity.

--






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Mon Nov 17 11:18:07 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 03:18:07 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <19971116085933.51526@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971116175711.1782A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>




> So far as I know, there hasn't been a single post suggesting that 
> Tim's freedom of speech be curtailed.  Nobody is running to mommy, or 
> hiding under the bed.  And in the context of this list I have no idea 
> what "over-zealous pinko liberal" means.

I agree that a lot of comment on the subject has been from the point of 
view you outline above, but several anonymous posts have been of the 
ranting kind that suggests the poster is a quasi-libertarian who believes 
in "freedom of speech, almost". As for the quote, I think in the ranting 
context of the discussion a few pointless and out of context mild flames 
aren`t entirely out of place, and "over-zealous pinko liberal" was just 
the first one that sprang to mind after a few too many whiskeys.

> > Racist comments to me would be those that generalised the opinion to all 
> > Japanese, Tim insulted one particular person.
> 
> I don't base my assessment of Tim on that single incident -- it's 
> based on a history of his comments going back some time.  And I only 
> bring it up now because others have.  

If this is truly the case you have more justification for your comments 
(even though I happen to disagree with them) than most who have posted on 
this subject, who have reacted soley on this one isolated statement without 
any reference to Tims other posts.

> > If you are going to become
> > oversensitive about such comments the cypherpunks list is probably the
> > worst place to be.
> 
> I'm not oversensitive -- just stating the obvious to the oblivious.

Not so, making a distinction between different races is not the same as 
being racist, I could call you a yank, any of our 2 japanese posters a 
slant-eyed jap, and you could refer to me as a closeted limey, we both 
know the other has no serious intention to offend a whole ethnic group, 
even if the statement is intended to be offensive to its particular 
recipient. Someone over sensitive would however feel the comment was 
racist, ymmv, if it did, I would think your opinion wrong.

> It is an unfortunate fact that a large percentage of the population is
> racist without even being aware of it, and, like you, vigorously deny
> it.

I do not consider myself racist, merely able to see past PC bullshit 
about not calling a violent drug addicted "person of colour" a "fucked up 
nigger".

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From nobody at neva.org  Mon Nov 17 11:45:09 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 03:45:09 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711171934.NAA24335@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>If Bob has objections or differences of opinion, fine. But he should not
>squander his reputation capital by foaming about my personal choices, by
>referring to snot running down my barrel, by claiming I said I was going to
>kill a judge, and other such lies.
>
>And he really ought to tone down his "Hunter S. Thompsen wannabee" style of
>writing. It was old a couple of years ago.

I am of the opinion that Hettinga still has some value, but he should
work on his style and do a little more homework before posting.

I think what he is trying to convey is relentless positive energy and
friendliness.  This may work in person, but it tends to fail in ASCII.

He also doesn't seem to be aware that a good portion of his articles
are insulting.  It's somewhat understandable if he is a recovering
Democrat.  I've seen cases like this before and they are treatable.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From usura at sabotage.org  Mon Nov 17 12:34:39 1997
From: usura at sabotage.org (Alex de Joode)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 04:34:39 +0800
Subject: PGP 5 SDK
Message-ID: <199711172013.VAA15130@basement.replay.com>



Georg.Uphoff at uni-konstanz.de sez:


: Does anyone know where you can get PGP 5 SDK  except PGP.Inc. ?

: It would be lovely if it be free and under circumvention of U.S. 
: export control !

ftp.replay.com:/pub/crypto/pgp/pgpsdk

Unfortunately one .dll in the win32 file seems corrupt (bad crc),
so until that get's fixed you can do with unix.

: Thanks in advance.

: Nappy


--
  Alex de Joode | usura at SABOTAGE.ORG | http://www.sabotage.org
	Sabotage Internet: Your Internet Problem Provider.






From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Nov 17 12:51:46 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 04:51:46 +0800
Subject: Speed the Net
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971117203049.00ca75a0@pop.pipeline.com>



   Wall Street Journal, November 17, 1997, p. 28

   Congress Asked To Help Speed Internet Growth 

   High-Tech Firms Propose Controls to Build Trust In Digital
   Marketplace 

   By John Simons

   Washington - In an attempt to assert their newfound clout
   along the Potomac, 11 major U.S. high-technology companies
   are asking Congress and the White House to speed the growth
   of electronic commerce.

   Among the things they want are a moratorium on Internet
   taxes, the addition of Internet-specific language to the
   Uniform Commercial Code and a loosening of
   encryption-export controls.

   In an 18-page policy paper, to be released tomorrow, the
   chief executives of companies including Compaq Computer
   Corp., Digital Equipment Corp., Hewlett-Packard Co.,
   International Business Machines Corp., and Sun Microsystems
   Inc. outline their recommendations on several prickly
   issues, including sales taxes and tariffs, encryption,
   consumer privacy and content regulation. The coalition,
   also known as the Computer Systems Policy Project, urges
   governments to act quickly to help cyber-merchants foster
   consumer trust in the emerging digital marketplace. Most of
   the companies that endorsed the proposals are poised to
   take advantage of what could be a $200 billion-plus sales
   arena by the year 2000.

   Other companies in the coalition include Apple Computer
   Inc., Data General Corp., NCR Corp., Silicon Graphics Inc.,
   Stratus Computer Inc. and Unisys Corp.

   Although the policy recommendations are another example of
   Silicon Valley's current hot and heavy relationship with
   the nation's capital, the paper is hardly a love letter.
   One familiar refrain: Though industry needs government's
   help, Washington should keep its presence to a minimum.
   There is even a sense that some of the CEOs are reluctant
   to sully themselves by becoming overly involved in matters
   of politics.

   "I have no specific interest in lobbying in the strict
   sense," says Lars Nyberg, the CEO of NCR, co-chairman of
   the authoring committee with IBM's Louis V. Gerstner Jr.
   "Politicians can help this change or they can slow the
   evolution dramatically. We have the responsibility to make
   sure that doesn't happen. So, this is just something we
   have to do."

   The paper's authors are perhaps at their least subtle where
   they chide the Federal Communications Commission for what
   they believe is a plodding and shoddy implementation of the
   Telecommunications Act of 1996. The group argues that in
   order to populate the new digital domain, consumers need
   inexpensive, readily available access to an array of
   telecommunications services.

   Coalition members are concerned about the lack of
   competition in local telephone markets. They insist that
   local monopolies have hampered technological progress.
   "Until there is competition in the local markets for data
   and digital traffic, there will be no pressure on the
   incumbent telephone carriers to deploy new technologies."
   the group states.

   On the tax issue, the CEOs advocate "tax neutrality,"
   meaning that no tax system should discriminate based on the
   way a consumer purchases a product. Uncoordinated attempts
   to "force fit" existing tax structures, for example, "could
   impose discriminatory and multiple taxes on e-commerce
   transactions." they say. To avoid the problem, the group
   prods Congress to pass pending legislation to put a
   moratorium on new Internet sales taxes while industry,
   federal and local governments worked out a national
   standard for levying taxes on Internet commerce. The
   paper's authors are also pushing for a comparable
   international moratorium.

   As for the Internet's legal framework, the paper calls for
   an immediate amendment to the Uniform Commercial Code, one
   that updates contract laws and consumer protection rules
   for on-line transactions.

   The paper is most vague in its prescriptions for encryption
   policy, an area where government and industry have clashed
   on numerous occasions. The U.S. has held tight restrictions
   on the export of strong encryption software, which can be
   used to ensure security for Internet transactions,
   contending that it would be impossible to protect citizens
   from hacker attacks and other digital misdeeds if strong
   encryption were  made available overseas. The coalition is
   critical of the administration's stance, but offers few
   specific solutions.

   In part, the paper is a response to a challenge the White
   House issued last summer. In July, the Clinton
   administration released its "Framework for Global
   Electronic Commerce," a far-reaching set of policy
   prescriptions authored by Ira Magaziner, the president's
   senior adviser on policy development. Throughout the paper,
   Mr. Magaziner stressed that government should take a
   passive role in regulating the Internet. His preferred
   alternative: Help industry to set its own rules and standards.

   Mr. Magaziner called the coalition's paper "a very
   interesting, useful and helpful initiative." He said, "The
   principles are consistent with what we're hoping for. And,
   what's important is they are stepping up and leading."

   Convincing Congress, much less foreign entities, to agree
   on these issues will be difficult, however. Over the next
   few weeks, members of the coalition plan to travel overseas
   with their message. The group expects to meet with members
   of Congress, White House advisers and FCC officials
   sometime in January.

   -----













From news at phonemenow.com  Tue Nov 18 05:10:56 1997
From: news at phonemenow.com (news at phonemenow.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:10:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: A phone jack for your web site
Message-ID: <>


Dear cypherpunks at toad.com,

Announcing a new service for web pages from PhoneMeNow.  PhoneMeNow service provides 
your web site with instant connections to the public telephone network.  

Instantly connect your sales, customer service or other departments to browsers of 
your web site with the simple click of a button on your web site through
the public telephone network with PhoneMeNow service.

PhoneMeNow also offers virtual office, fax and find me services.

Visit our web site at www.phonemenow.com for further information about our
exciting new service designed to connect your web site to your customers. 

You may try out our service for FREE by visiting http://www.phonemenow.com.

http://www.phonemenow.com
news at phonemenow.com






From news at phonemenow.com  Tue Nov 18 05:10:56 1997
From: news at phonemenow.com (news at phonemenow.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:10:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: A phone jack for your web site
Message-ID: <>


Dear cypherpunks at toad.com,

Announcing a new service for web pages from PhoneMeNow.  PhoneMeNow service provides 
your web site with instant connections to the public telephone network.  

Instantly connect your sales, customer service or other departments to browsers of 
your web site with the simple click of a button on your web site through
the public telephone network with PhoneMeNow service.

PhoneMeNow also offers virtual office, fax and find me services.

Visit our web site at www.phonemenow.com for further information about our
exciting new service designed to connect your web site to your customers. 

You may try out our service for FREE by visiting http://www.phonemenow.com.

http://www.phonemenow.com
news at phonemenow.com






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov 17 13:33:27 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:33:27 +0800
Subject: Databasix conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <0738cb51233c79e1c67184be72abdb44@anon.efga.org>



Andy Dustman <andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu> wrote:

> > If I remember correctly, the documentation for at least one of the nymservers
> > suggested that posting through a remailer and pasting in the return address
> > would be quicker and impose less burden on the server than having to process
> > each outgoing message through the server.
>   
> That's possible, and if true, it's probably in the documentation for
> redneck. Personally, I would prefer to have the server handle those
> messages, simply because there is a certain amount of "authentication",
> i.e., you can be reasonably sure that that nym really sent the message and
> wasn't forged.

I think it's just as well that people NOT get the idea that the e-mail
address in the headers (from *ANY* ISP) is somehow authenticated and reliable.
The only advantage to sending the message through the 'nymserver would be if 
the server itself would PGP sign the message with its own key to prove that
the message was sent through the server by a properly authenticated user.

The remailers themselves have become the victims of forgeries.  Back during
the DataBasix "reign of [t]error" directed at Jeff Burchell, the "DataBasix
cabal" (called that by a Netcom news admin, BTW) accused the Mailmasher
'nymserver of being used for "forgery" of Gary Burnore's name and address
to various posts.  And now, even after the cajones.com domain has apparently
bitten the dust, I've seen complaints of spam being received by people that's
been forged to look as if it had come from that domain.  In the case of the
Burnore forgeries, the Path: was only traceable back to the mail2news gateway, 
so the header items implicating Mailmasher could have easily been forged just 
as Mr. Burnore's address was.  Nevertheless, these alleged "forgeries" 
comprised the rationale used by a DataBasix employee, Billy McClatchie, for 
demanding the Mailmasher be shut down.

Any kid with a throwaway Netcruiser account and a copy of Netscape or some
other mailer that allows you to set an arbitrary From: address on outgoing
SMTP mail can easily "forge" a return address, and certainly do a more 
convincing job than you could ever hope to do by pasting headers through a 
remailer.  I'll bet if that happened, people like Mr. Burnore would not be
so quick to demand that Netcom be shut down if it can't put a stop to this.

> > I'm not sure that even that is a wise precedent to set. In itself it seems
> > innocuous enough, but it could always lead to a demand, "Well, you already
> > mangle e-mail addresses contained in the bodies of posts, so why not also
> > alter the contents of posts in the following way..."
>     
> Well, I'm not real happy to have to do it. It was in response to a very
> active spam-baiting campaign, apparently directed at the Databasix people,
> and primarily consisted of lists of addresses with no (or very little)
> other text. I doubt this methodology could realistically be applied to
> anything else (or that I would consider doing it for anything else).

Your solution was undoubtedly more clever than they had counted on.  Unless I
miss my guess, they were hoping that anything that contained one of their
e-mail addresses would get blocked.  They did manage to convince Jeff Burchell
to do that, at least until he figured out what they were up to and he
discontinued his content filtering.

I once tried an experiment.  I got one of those free e-mail accounts and stuck
its e-mail address in the body of a Usenet post that was sent to the same set 
of NGs that were involved in this "spam baiting".  I did this once daily for 
several weeks and only received one piece of spam.  Knowing that, I could have
confidently "spam baited" myself, if I wished, without any real consequences.

Back when this was all happening, Gary was posting perhaps a dozen messages a
day to usenet with his own (unmangled) address in the headers.  I doubt that
he'd have noticed any difference from having his address included in the
BODIES of anonymous posts.  Anyone who was going to harvest his address would 
have already done so from his own posts.

> > BTW, is there any evidence to indicate that anyone is really harvesting e-mail
> > addresses from the BODIES of Usenet posts? Gary Burnore posts his flames quite
> > widely, so it's quite likely that any bulk e-mailing lists he's on is the
> > result of his (non-mangled) e-mail address being in the From: line of his own
> > posts.
>   
> I really don't know. I do know when the spam-baiting campaign started, the
> spam-baiters would also use the remailers to contact the people
> spam-baited to let them know they had been spam-baited so they would
> complain to us. 

That's even more evidence that the real target of the spam baiter(s) was the
remailers themselves.  Why else would you "attack" people, then anonymously
warn them of what you'd done?  Perhaps that's why the spam baiting reportedly
was directed not only at the DataBasix gang, but also at their detractors,
such as Ron Guilmette, Scott Dentice, etc.

I did notice several non-anonymous Usenet "warnings" going out from Peter 
Hartley <hartley at hartley.on.ca>, the sysadmin of an infamous Canadian 
domain that provides autoresponders for spammers.  He was even "helpful" 
enough to include several contact addresses for Jeff  Burchell and his 
upstream providers.  I'm not sure how/why he was involved, unless the spam 
baiters managed to push his buttons and sucker him into joining their 
clandestine anti-remailer campaign.

> (There was another set of letters going around claiming to
> be pro-remailer, but I was always skeptical that that was the true
> intention.)

Sounds like a classic, "F.U.D." disinformation campaign like another
anti-privacy bunch, the Co$, would engage in.  What better way to discredit
remailers that to, for example, send out anonymous messages saying "Preserve
your rights -- defend remailers!" and making it look like the message came
from a member of the KKK, or NAMBLA, or some other unpopular group.






From andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu  Mon Nov 17 14:13:52 1997
From: andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu (Andy Dustman)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 06:13:52 +0800
Subject: Databasix conspiracy theories
In-Reply-To: <0738cb51233c79e1c67184be72abdb44@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971117164118.224h-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> I think it's just as well that people NOT get the idea that the e-mail
> address in the headers (from *ANY* ISP) is somehow authenticated and reliable.

There is some merit to that...

> The remailers themselves have become the victims of forgeries.  Back during
> the DataBasix "reign of [t]error" directed at Jeff Burchell, the "DataBasix
> cabal" (called that by a Netcom news admin, BTW) accused the Mailmasher
> 'nymserver of being used for "forgery" of Gary Burnore's name and address
> to various posts.  And now, even after the cajones.com domain has apparently
> bitten the dust, I've seen complaints of spam being received by people that's
> been forged to look as if it had come from that domain.  In the case of the
> Burnore forgeries, the Path: was only traceable back to the mail2news gateway, 
> so the header items implicating Mailmasher could have easily been forged just 
> as Mr. Burnore's address was.  Nevertheless, these alleged "forgeries" 
> comprised the rationale used by a DataBasix employee, Billy McClatchie, for 
> demanding the Mailmasher be shut down.

I've never really been convinced that Databasix has much to do with the
Huge Cajones fiasco. I'm not saying nobody from there is involved, though.
I'm just trying to keep an objective opinion on the subject.
   
> That's even more evidence that the real target of the spam baiter(s) was the
> remailers themselves.  Why else would you "attack" people, then anonymously
> warn them of what you'd done?  Perhaps that's why the spam baiting reportedly
> was directed not only at the DataBasix gang, but also at their detractors,
> such as Ron Guilmette, Scott Dentice, etc.

That the primary target of the spam-baiting campaign was the remailer net
(one at a time), I have little doubt.

> > (There was another set of letters going around claiming to
> > be pro-remailer, but I was always skeptical that that was the true
> > intention.)
> 
> Sounds like a classic, "F.U.D." disinformation campaign like another
> anti-privacy bunch, the Co$, would engage in.  What better way to discredit
> remailers that to, for example, send out anonymous messages saying "Preserve
> your rights -- defend remailers!" and making it look like the message came
> from a member of the KKK, or NAMBLA, or some other unpopular group.

Yes, and that's how it appeared to me, as well. In fact, I really would
doubt any other possible scenario, mainly because much of the spam-baiting
was done to IP addresses (same people, different hosts), so IP addresses
were basically outlawed (if you have an IP address, you've got to have a
FQDN, right?). That and people were apparently being sent many copies of
the "warning" (to the same address). Also, the tone of the letter seemed
counter to what it was supposedly intended to accomplish, i.e., "there's
nothing you can do about it, so stop whining". OTOH, I did make a public
request for whoever it was doing it to stop, and they did seem to stop
rather shortly after that, though spam-baiting continued.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<







From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov 17 16:07:54 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:07:54 +0800
Subject: GAK
Message-ID: <e6c0e6142c88bba527aef8e8ed4f4578@anon.efga.org>



Timothy C. Mayonnaise is not only as queer as 
a three dollar bill, but he is also into 
having sex with children.

  ___
 <*,*> Timothy C. Mayonnaise
 [`-']
 ' - '






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov 17 16:08:19 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:08:19 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711142245.QAA05891@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <6jdrcEm2QGt4Ocy3i4WTCw==@bureau42.ml.org>



> In every other instance in which Tim has discussed capital punishment,
> it has been in the context of a trial.

Timmy said that OJ Simpson should be shot without trial.






From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Nov 17 16:42:39 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:42:39 +0800
Subject: trusting untrusted platforms
In-Reply-To: <199711161443.JAA01554@tana.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0400274db09666e36296@[139.167.130.248]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 9:43 am -0500 on 11/16/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:

> Ryan (getting dangerously close to having a working Eternity DDS demo,
> and wondering if FC98 will be on mbone, particularly the solar eclipse,
> since even if he had the money to go, it's in the middle of next
>semester, and disappearing for a week would kind of be difficult, although
>not at all impossible of someone wants to pay for me to go...ahh, but
>there's always next year)

Ding! You rang? Welcome to Random Acts of Kindness, Inc. Our motto: "You never
know when we're going to make your day!"...

Ryan, if you get airfare to Anguilla somehow, we'll find a way to put you
up and feed you. And comp you your conference badge, of course. *But*, you may
have to work (some) for it...

Thank you for playing "Be Careful What You Wish For"... :-).


By the way, the FC98 organizing committee has decided, it appears, that we
can't fight mother nature, much less celestial mechanics, and we're probably
(it might mess up a lot of people's schedules, which is why we say "probably"
right now) just going to skip conference sessions on Thursday so people can go
park a boat (bring lots of dramamine, the waves start in Africa) off
Montserrat(!) or wherever, to see the total eclipse. We're probably also going
to mount an organized (such as it is) official FC98-sanctioned expedition
to do it.


Now, exactly *how* far can a pyroclastic flow go out to sea?...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Nov 17 16:53:41 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:53:41 +0800
Subject: Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
Message-ID: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>




I've been writing a gigantic e$ rant, :-), which I haven't done in a while,
and so I've left things to pile up in my POP account until I was done. I'm
done, and I'm still bashing the (blatant :-)) silliness out of it, and will
send it here soon.

In the meantime, I wanted to find a quick and dirty list of informal
logical fallacies, and, while I was at it, I bumped into Mission:Critical,
which is fairly comprenensive website on logic an critical thinking.
Evidently you can earn college credit on it, for those of you who need
college credit. :-). Here it is.

http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/

Also, I've found a reasonable list of informal fallacies, from
<http://ddi.digital.net/~setzerl/LOGIC.htm>, (which see for applicable
attributions) which I've appended here. That way, you can all keep score at
home. Expect me to use a bunch, whether I want to or not... :-). Notice
that argumentum ad hominem is when you discount someone's opinion because
of who they are or what they do. Vuperative insults, it seems, are another
thing altogether.  :-).


It's a shame that Tim seems to have killfiled me at this point. Usually, I
like it, because then I can post stuff here without him tearing me a new
asshole very time.  This time, since I'm doing the tearing, maybe he's just
hiding. Which is fine, because he can run, but he can't hide on this crap
anymore...

More in a bit, when I get e$pam all caught up.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-------


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Slick Maneuver Identification Table #1

                       Fallacies of Oversimplification

           SLICK MANEUVER                           EXAMPLE

  Special Pleading or                "During a period of war sales
  Card-Stacking: Stacks the deck of  increase, prices rise, and greater
  evidence to facilitate a desired   profits are made. Therefore wars are
  outcome.                           brought about by persons who profit
                                     financially from them."

  Genetic Fallacies: Attempt to
  reduce the significance of a       "Our nation cherishes freedom today,
  movement or a state of affairs     since many of the founders of the
  merely to a proposed account of    republic were men who prized freedom
  its origins or earliest            more than life itself."
  antecedents.

  False Cause: Oversimplifies the
  relevant antecedents of a given    "Rome fell because its leaders
  series of events.                  quarreled among themselves."

  False Analogy: Takes two or more
  objects which are similar in some  "Minds, like rivers, can be broad. The
  ways and makes an unwarranted      broader the river, the shallower it
  inference about the additional     is. Therefore, the broader the mind,
  ways in which such objects could   the shallower it is."
  be similar.

  Black-and-White Fallacy:
  Overlooks both gradations and      "All politicians are either highly
  additional alternatives between    efficient or completely inept."
  extreme positions.

  Accident: Applies a general        "If it is wrong to break into a cabin,
  principle to an exceptional case   then a cabin should not entered to
  without critical examination or    save a party from freezing even though
  regard to context.                 they are caught in a blizzard."

                                     "Since it is permissible for a student
  Converse Accident: Generalizes     to delay handing in his assignment if
  from an exceptional case to a      he is called home on an emergency, it
  proposed general principle.        is permissible for a student to delay
                                     handing in an assignment whenever he
                                     chooses to do so."

                                     "Smith, Jones, and Brown are members
  Hasty Generalization: Reaches a    of labor unions and each of them is
  generalized conclusion on the      interested in gaining the maximum pay
  basis of too limited a range of    with the least amount of work.
  examples.                          Therefore, all members of labor unions
                                     are interested only in gaining the
                                     highest wage for the least work."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Slick Maneuver Identification Table #2

                  Fallacies of Misuse of Appeal to Emotions

           SLICK MANEUVER                           EXAMPLE

  The Misuse of Appeal to Laughter:  "Anyone who accepts the conclusions of
  Diverts attention from the         my opponent would also be forced to
  central issues and stifles         accept the view that the tail wags the
  serious thought and analysis.      dog."

  The Appeal to Pity (Argumentum Ad  "John deserves a 'C' in this class
  Misericordiam): Replaces relevant  since his parents have sacrificed to
  evidence for a conclusion with a   send him to college and he will not
  bid for the sympathy of an         graduate if he receives a lower
  audience.                          grade."

  The Appeal to Reverence: Replaces  "We must beware of foreign entangling
  relevant evidence for a            alliances since Washington, the
  conclusion with a bid for respect  founder of our nation, warned us
  for traditions.                    against taking such a course of
                                     action."

  The Bandwagon Fallacy: Appeals to
  an interest in following the       "You ought to buy a small European
  crowd and doing as they do rather  sports car as all members of the smart
  than to adequate evidence          crowd now own one of these cars."
  justifying a conclusion.

                                     "I'm sure that you will recognize that
  The Common-Folks Appeal: Appeals   I am more competent than my opponent.
  to attempts to secure acceptance   When I was in high school I had to get
  of a conclusion by the speaker's   up at four-thirty every morning to
  identification with the everyday   deliver papers. In college I was
  concerns and feelings of an        barely able to make C's and had to do
  audience rather than on the basis  janitorial work in order to make ends
  of adequate evidence.              meet to put myself through school.
                                     Therefore, I would make a better
                                     Congressman."

  Appeal to the Gallery (Argumentum  "As you union members know, I am a
  Ad Populum): Seeks acceptance of   champion of the labor movement, and
  a point of view by an emotional    seek to eliminate exploitation of the
  reaffirmation of a speaker's       common worker by big business.
  support of values, traditions,     Therefore, you know you can trust my
  interests, prejudices, or          judgment when I say that this
  provincial concerns shared widely  agricultural legislation will be good
  by members of an audience.         for the country."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Slick Maneuver Identification Table #3

                Fallacies of Involved or Complex Assumptions

              SLICK MANEUVER                           EXAMPLE

  Begging the Question (Petitio
  Principii): Assumes what needs to be    "All the events in nature are
  proven and offers this assumption as    determined. Human events are
  evidence for a conclusion that only     part of the events in nature.
  particularizes the assumption or that   Therefore, human events are
  restates an equivalent form of the      determined."
  original assumption.

  Arguing in a Circle: Uses a premise as  "Democracy is desirable because
  evidence to establish a conclusion,     it promotes freedom of inquiry.
  and this conclusion is used as          But why is freedom of inquiry
  evidence to establish the original      desirable? Because it promotes
  premise.                                democracy."

  Name-Tagging: Assumes the attachment
  of labels to persons or things          "This application is easy to
  constitute evidence for conclusions     use. Look at its label, 'Easy
  about the objects to which the labels   Applicator.'"
  are applied.

                                          "Anything that you say would be
  Poisoning the Wells: Discredits the     influenced by your interest in
  source of proposed evidence, so that    civil rights. You may make your
  the evidence is ruled out prior to any  statement, but we shall know
  consideration of its merits.            beforehand that it will be
                                          distorted and unreliable."

  Complex Question: Assumes or
  presupposes a certain state of
  affairs, so that any answer involves    "Have you stopped telling lies?"
  the granting of the assumption.

  Leading Question: "Plants" a proposed   "You do believe that longer
  answer to a question by the manner in   vacations are desirable, do you
  which the question is asked.            not?"

  Contradictory Assumptions: Attempts to
  make two or more contradictory          "What would happen if an
  assumptions, thus violating the         irresistible force met an
  Aristotelian rule of "either-or."       immovable object?"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Slick Maneuver Identification Table #4

               Fallacies of Imprecision in the Use of Language

          SLICK MANEUVER                           EXAMPLE

  The Misuse of Vague             "You claim that you believe in free
  Expressions: Occurs if a        enterprise, yet you accept socialistic
  conclusion not justified by     practices of government like the War on
  evidence is attributable to     Poverty and Medicare. The American way
  the misinterpretation of a      of life has never endorsed a policy of
  vague expression.               providing something for nothing."

  The Fallacy of Simple
  Ambiguity: Results from an
  effort to establish a           "We cannot expect John to come since he
  conclusion by interpreting a    said, 'Nothing will deter me from
  statement in a manner not       coming.'"
  justified by the context.

  The Fallacy of Equivocation:    "Everything subject to law is subject to
  Changes or shifts the meaning   a lawgiver. The natural order is subject
  of a key expression in the      to a law. Therefore, the natural order
  middle of an argument.          is subject to a lawgiver."

  The Fallacy of Amphibole:
  Occurs if a conclusion not      "No cat has nine tails. Any cat has one
  justified by evidence is based  more tail than no cat. Therefore, any
  upon ambiguity attributed to    cat has ten tails."
  the syntax of a sentence.

  The Fallacy of Ambiguity of
  Significance: Occurs in the     "A period of higher unemployment is
  drawing of an improper          developing, since there was a one
  conclusion by                   percent increase in the rate of
  misinterpretation of the        unemployment in January."
  significance of a statement.

                                  A theme was returned to a student with
  The Fallacy of Accent: Occurs   the notation, "Some parts of this theme
  when improper emphasis is       are good and other parts interesting.
  placed upon a word, phrase, or  The interesting parts are inaccurate and
  a sentence and on this basis a  the good parts were copied." The student
  conclusion is inferred.         wrote his parents, "The grader wrote
                                  that my theme was 'good' and
                                  'interesting.'"

  The Fallacy of Division:        "Since surgeons have spent many years in
  Infers that the property of an  perfecting appendectomies, Dr. James
  organized whole also            Doe, the new surgeon in our town, has
  characterizes the parts of the  spent many years in perfecting his
  whole.                          technique in performing appendectomies."

  The Fallacy of Composition:     "Since the members of this team are the
  Infers that the qualities or    best players of their respective
  characteristics of parts of a   positions in the conference, a team
  whole must also characterize    composed of these players would be the
  the whole itself.               best team in the conference."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Slick Maneuver Identification Table #5

                          Fallacies of Irrelevance

           SLICK MANEUVER                           EXAMPLE

  Fallacies Misusing Appeals to
  Authoritative Sources: Support a
  conclusion by appeals to           "Man must be immortal because this
  documents, generally held          belief has tended to be present in
  beliefs, or the opinions of        such widely differing societies in
  well-known persons that are not    highly divergent circumstances over
  particularly germane or qualified  such a long span of history."
  to deal with the point at issue.

  The Appeal to Force (Argumentum    "You should accept the view that our
  Ad Baculum): Substitutes force or  protection society can strengthen the
  the threat of its use for          sales of your product. Otherwise you
  rational evidence in the support   might find that your machinery has
  of a conclusion.                   been damaged and that your labor
                                     troubles increase."

  The Appeal to the Man (Argumentum
  Ad Hominem): Seeks to prove a      "The statement of this witness cannot
  conclusion false by attacking the  be accepted as reliable, since he
  character, reputation,             participated in a protest
  associations, or social            demonstration against the United
  situations of the person           States' foreign policy when he was a
  proposing it.                      student in college."

  The Argument from Intimidation:
  Asserts arbitrarily that a
  person's idea is false and then
  uses the assertion as proof of     "John asserts that no man is his
  that person's immorality. This     brother's keeper. This is a false
  fallacy was identified by Ayn      idea. Therefore, John is immoral."
  Rand in The Virtue of
  Selfishness.

  The Appeal to Ignorance
  (Argumentum Ad Ignorantium):
  Advances the position that if one  "Since you cannot disprove that there
  conclusion in an argument cannot   are flying saucers, you should accept
  be established convincingly, then  as reliable the reports of those
  the opposing view can be           claiming to have seen such objects."
  accepted.

                                     "Any high school graduate should be
  The Fallacy of an Irrelevant       admitted to any university supported
  Conclusion or of "Missing the      by taxes in his state, since he
  Point of the Evidence" (Ignoratio  should be assured of all privileges
  Elenchi): Stresses factors that    of citizenship guaranteed to him by
  may support a conclusion other     the Constitution, his family also
  than the one proposed.             pays taxes in that particular state,
                                     and he can get a better job if he is
                                     a graduate of a university."

  The Argumentative Leap (Non
  Sequitur): Jumps to a conclusion   "The electoral college is subject to
  with no immediate basis for        extreme criticism. Therefore,
  drawing the proposed conclusion    presidential candidates should be
  provided internally within the     nominated by popular votes rather
  argument.                          than by political conventions."

  Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc (After
  This, Therefore Because of This):
  Suggests that because one event    "John had a cold. John took large
  follows another, the former must   doses of vitamin C. The cold
  have caused the latter, without    subsided. Therefore, the large doses
  showing a causal link. This        of vitamin C caused the cold to
  fallacy was identified by Frank    subside."
  R. Wallace in The Neo-Tech
  Discovery.
-----


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From whgiii at invweb.net  Mon Nov 17 17:29:26 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:29:26 +0800
Subject: Special Thanks (Was: Re: PGP 5 SDK)
In-Reply-To: <199711172013.VAA15130@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711180120.UAA15023@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711172013.VAA15130 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/17/97 
   at 09:13 PM, Alex de Joode <usura at sabotage.org> said:

>Georg.Uphoff at uni-konstanz.de sez:


>: Does anyone know where you can get PGP 5 SDK  except PGP.Inc. ?

>: It would be lovely if it be free and under circumvention of U.S. 
>: export control !

>ftp.replay.com:/pub/crypto/pgp/pgpsdk

>Unfortunately one .dll in the win32 file seems corrupt (bad crc), so
>until that get's fixed you can do with unix.


I just would like to give a special thanks to Alex and those at replay.com
for the invaluable service that they provide.

For those of you who think that their service only helps those outside the
US you are wrong. For the past year IBM has refused to publicly release
the 128bit version of the Netscape Navigator for OS/2 domestically. Just
this weekend someone uploaded this program to replay.com making it
available not only for those overseas but those of us here in the US.

Omce again Thanks!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNHDs5Y9Co1n+aLhhAQGf7QP+Ip8muLJOxA7IzUA/lCRkrzhRNtUoOTRy
A4ZBXwH0d3zqJdsR8PDoAv/qRsxs0BcdRgceZCZi8hHzkureYXbv13yamsmaEW1H
h3prhL0ycUOi9j16zkKVlR3JIXVFtap7kNfP1tMtxkgx9ER7GJLkCUQHplzDZeH2
sAByUul7TYw=
=wBcH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From MakeCash at moremoney.com  Tue Nov 18 09:54:48 1997
From: MakeCash at moremoney.com (MakeCash at moremoney.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:54:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711181754.JAA28907@toad.com>


DATA
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From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 17 17:57:56 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:57:56 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9)
In-Reply-To: <199711171934.NAA24335@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3470F1F2.4A47@dev.null>



Neva Remailer, cleverly pretending to be Monty Can2sin wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP FORGED MESSAGE-----
> I am of the opinion that Hettinga still has some value, but he should
> work on his style and do a little more homework before posting.
> 
> I think what he is trying to convey is relentless positive energy and
> friendliness.  This may work in person, but it tends to fail in ASCII.

  Electronic communication is a bare-bones ASCII interpretation of
our intended communication. i.e. - stripped of intonation and other
physical gestures which convey a meaning beyond the mere words we
speak, in themselves.
  Although there are some rudimentary ASCII images (:>) which can be
used to add elements of shared emotional or conceptual constructs to
the message we are attempting to convey.

  The Medium IS the Message.
  Until the email/communications medium evolves to allow us the ability
to add not only smiles and winks, etc., but also chagrin, doubt, self-
doubt, etc., to our online communications, the medium will remain an
impediment to conveying the totality of our true message, as opposed to
being merely an electronic version of 'pidgin Englich'.
  e.g. - When I read 'ymmv', I interpret it as 'You Make Me Vomit.'
 despite the fact that I now know it is usually meant as 'Your Mileage
 May Vary'. I still instinctively take it to mean the former, which
 sometimes results in miscommunication, and sometimes results in some
 of the most outrageous humor imaginable.

> He also doesn't seem to be aware that a good portion of his articles
> are insulting.  It's somewhat understandable if he is a recovering
> Democrat.  I've seen cases like this before and they are treatable.

  One of the advantages of the shortcomings of email as a communications
medium is that we _do_ see our intended meaning stripped bare, with the
result that we then have to 'think' (god forbid!) about what portion of
our message is being 'twisted' by the loss of our accompanying physical
gestures, and what portion of our message is being 'revealed' by the
removal of the 'socially polite' gestures that we use to 'conceal' our
true intent in our message.
  e.g. - When a dog bares its teeth while cringing, and the dog's human
 companion says, "It's just her way of smiling." Right...

  When we are attacked for what our ASCII Doppleganger 'appears' to 
reveal about us and our message, we tend to adopt a 'fight or flight'
posture, in which we then proceed to either 'suck ass', drooling on
ourself as we try to explain what we "meant to say," or we launch
a counter-attack which tends to confirm the opposite of what we had
intended to convey.
  The only True (TM) response to, "You are a racist, sexist, violent
asshole piece of shit!" is, "Yeah? So what's your point?"

  If you take a look at the posts which stir-up long threads of
animosity and dissention, I think you will recognize that they
are based on simple, universal 'keywords' which we then react to
by aligning ourself on this-or-that side of the Newtonian equation.
  We need to remind ourselves that, ever since the Theory of 
Relativity was born, we should take into account that Dr. Vulis'
theory that "All CypherPunks are cocksuckers." is subject to wide
variations of interpretation/acceptability, depending on whether
the 'CypherPunk' is named John Gilmore, or Carol Anne Cypherpunk.

  Not that I'm a 'sexist'...:> (;P) {:0) (:) {;{>}

  (:>)=======<  Help! They knocked me down and cut off my arms!

       \
  (:>)-------<  I'm healed! I'm healed.
       /

ArmMonger







From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 17 18:00:21 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:00:21 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4545] Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
In-Reply-To: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3470F3FD.321D@dev.null>



Robert Hettinga wrote:
>  Notice
> that argumentum ad hominem is when you discount someone's opinion because
> of who they are or what they do. Vuperative insults, it seems, are another
> thing altogether.  :-).

  Right... Like we're going to believe this when communist pedophile 
Nazi cocksucker Robert Hettinga tells it to us.
  I bet that when I look up 'vuperative' in the dictionary, he'll be
wrong about that, too.

AdHomineMonger






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 17 18:25:06 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:25:06 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711180218.UAA19348@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:40:02 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>
> Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9)

>   Electronic communication is a bare-bones ASCII interpretation of
> our intended communication. i.e. - stripped of intonation and other
> physical gestures which convey a meaning beyond the mere words we
> speak, in themselves.
>   Although there are some rudimentary ASCII images (:>) which can be
> used to add elements of shared emotional or conceptual constructs to
> the message we are attempting to convey.
> 
>   The Medium IS the Message.

You clearly don't read real books...especialy those of the great authors of the
world.

People who believe the spin doctorism 'The medium is the message' usualy
spend their time watching television or working for it.

>   Until the email/communications medium evolves to allow us the ability
> to add not only smiles and winks, etc., but also chagrin, doubt, self-
> doubt, etc., to our online communications, the medium will remain an
> impediment to conveying the totality of our true message, as opposed to
> being merely an electronic version of 'pidgin Englich'.

This could happen provided we got rid of television and made graphics harder
to print...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 17 19:03:33 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:03:33 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711180218.UAA19348@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34710248.5FA@dev.null>



Austin redneck hippie, Jim Choate, wrote:
> > From: TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>
> > Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9)
> >   Electronic communication is a bare-bones ASCII interpretation of
> > our intended communication. i.e. - stripped of intonation and other
> > physical gestures which convey a meaning beyond the mere words we
> > speak, in themselves.
> >   Although there are some rudimentary ASCII images (:>) which can be
> > used to add elements of shared emotional or conceptual constructs to
> > the message we are attempting to convey.
> >
> >   The Medium IS the Message.
> 
> You clearly don't read real books...especialy those of the great authors of the
> world.

  Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, had no idea what it meant...

> People who believe the spin doctorism 'The medium is the message' usualy
> spend their time watching television or working for it.

  Those who *do*not* believe 'The medium is the message' usually think
that Socrates' world-veiw would have been exactly the same if he had
been using the InterNet as his means of viewing and communicating with
the world.
 
> >   Until the email/communications medium evolves to allow us the ability
> > to add not only smiles and winks, etc., but also chagrin, doubt, self-
> > doubt, etc., to our online communications, the medium will remain an
> > impediment to conveying the totality of our true message, as opposed to
> > being merely an electronic version of 'pidgin Englich'.
> 
> This could happen provided we got rid of television and made graphics harder
> to print...

  Right, Jim. Give us your prediction of when this is going to happen...
(Yes, I *am* laughing at you...thanks for asking.)

  Reality is that even when the medium evolves to the point where we
can use it to convey the totality of what we are trying to convey, that
after we have done so the 'powers that be' will flash a graphic of
us on the computer screen, making us look for all the world like a
drug-dealing, terrorist pedophile.
  There will be few sheeple with the dicrimination to recognize that,
in your case, it is true, in 'my' case, it is not.

Not that I'm a troublemaker...

TruthMonger






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov 17 19:08:36 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:08:36 +0800
Subject: Databasix conspiracy theories
In-Reply-To: <0738cb51233c79e1c67184be72abdb44@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117175315.006a2520@popd.netcruiser>

At 03:24 PM 11/17/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>Any kid with a throwaway Netcruiser account and a copy of Netscape or some
>other mailer that allows you to set an arbitrary From: address on outgoing
>SMTP mail can easily "forge" a return address, and certainly do a more 
>convincing job than you could ever hope to do by pasting headers through a 
>remailer.  I'll bet if that happened, people like Mr. Burnore would not be
>so quick to demand that Netcom be shut down if it can't put a stop to this.

Woodwose (who appears to have borrowed my last name for his "True Name")
appears to have done a variation of this--except that if there are
complaints about messages being sent from woodwose at mailexcite.com, I doubt
anything will happen other than the woodwose account at mailexcite.com
being closed.  Hence, his "disposable remailer" claim.  Any shmuck can log
on and input a fake name, address, and demographic data to create a new
account at hotmail, mailexcite, or juno.  In this way, as existing
remailers are harassed out of existence, new ones can be created on a daily
or hourly basis.  It would probably be interesting to find out how much
info these outfits collect (cookies, etc.) that could be definitively
linked to a True Name.


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
-------------- next part --------------
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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 17 19:15:07 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:15:07 +0800
Subject: RTFM-709
Message-ID: <199711180259.DAA11398@basement.replay.com>



Anonymous wrote:
> (sweet fuck-all)

Jason wrote:
> Information Server wrote:
> > For information on the interception of plaintext email,
> > send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
> > and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".

Jason,
  I have attached a file which includes some of the responses
sent to "Information Server <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>", as well
as a post to the list, apparently from David E. Smith, the
remailer operator at Bureau42, giving the 'correct' address
of the non-existent 'Information Server' supposedly at
Sympatico...and, as a special bonus, a post to the list,
purportedly from you, thanking 'Dave' for the information.

  You are a victim of your own misplaced faith in the great god 
known as WYSIWYG. (What you see, is what you get. -- NOT!)
  If I _am_ <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>, then you have the satisfaction
of knowing that if I suffer a serious regression into my former
violent, psychotic delusional state, that the proper authorities
will likely be able to track me down and prosecute me for you
bizarre, sadistic murder.
  If I am _not_ <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>, well...

  Regardless, whether you are seeking information on email interception
or home-study on how to committ bizarre sex acts with farm animals,
your interest in this information is known to both whomever you send
your request to, as well as everyone who you reply to in regard to
offered information, as well as everyone that the recipients share
your email with _and_ anyone who manages to access the email accounts
or systems of _all_ of the forementioned.
  Since both your real and forged corresponedence has already gone
to private email accounts, public mailing lists, and perhaps to
USENET and beyond, I think you can see the advisability of using
encryption to limit access to the plaintext of your message to
only those you specifically encrypt the message to.

  You may not care if the whole world knows that you want information
on email interception, or even about your fondness for farm animals,
but there are undoubtedly things which you would rather keep between
yourself and the intended recipient.
  If a real 'Information Server' had a verifiable Public Key for
you to encrypt your reply to, then it would not likely matter if you
sent the message to a spoof address, as unknown recipients could
not likely read it. The same applies to your friends, relatives and
bussiness acquaintances. If you use encryption for those things
which are important for you to keep private, then you do not have
to worry as much if they share an email account, computer or system
with friends, family, coworkers or strangers.

  The 'spoof' I did was neither technically complicated nor even
particularly clever. On the other hand, there are a plethora of
people in existence who are both clever _and_ skilled at poking
their noses in wherever they want and doing whatever they like
with the information.

Sincerely,
Louis J. Freeh  (aka TruthMonger)
Director  (aka Lunatic)
Federal Bureau of Investigation  (aka Electronic Forgery Foundation)
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"


>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:35 1997
Received: from borg.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com
[207.69.200.122])
        by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA11966
        for <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:34:39 -0600
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Message-Id: <199711160134.UAA21805 at borg.mindspring.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mccaskill@[204.180.128.14]>
From: "Tom McCaskill" <mccaskill at mindspring.com>
To: toto at sk.sympatico.ca
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:32:32 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:30 1997
Received: from plato.stic.net (mail.stic.net [204.57.118.5])
        by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10112
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From: "joseph gonzales" <polo at stic.net>
To: <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RTFM-709
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:23:42 -0600
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----------
> From: Information Server <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>
> To: Jason <rennie at one.net.au>
> Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: Re: Mail interception
> Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 6:46 PM
> 
> For information on the interception of plaintext email,
> send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
> and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".

>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:36 1997
Received: from amiga.amitar.com.au (root at amiga.amitar.com.au
[203.57.242.1])
        by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA17491
        for <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:58:07 -0600
(CST)
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          by amiga.amitar.com.au (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP
          id JAA11177 for <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>; Sun, 16 Nov 1997
09:46:33 +0800
From: Shane Cracknell <shane at Amitar.com.au>
Reply-To: shane at Amitar.com.au
To: Information Server <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:58:27 +0800
Message-ID: <yam7259.1396.270667912 at Mail.amitar.com.au>
In-Reply-To: <346E4255.702B at sk.sympatico.ca>
X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck
Organization: Arthur do nowt...{We sell Apathy and inefficiency}
Subject: RTFM-79
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>From - Sat Nov 15 21:19:53 1997
Received: from clockking.lse.fullfeed.com ([199.201.90.25] (may be
forged))
        by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA03935
        for <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:06:16 -0600
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Received: by clockking.lse.fullfeed.com id VAA11358; Sat, 15 Nov 1997
21:05:52 -0600 sender meb for toto at sk.sympatico.ca
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:05:52 -0600
From: mike belton <meb at clockking.lse.fullfeed.com>
Message-Id: <199711160305.VAA11358 at clockking.lse.fullfeed.com>
To: toto at sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: RTFM-709
X-UIDL: 4396d0a3c0e4a0852673e89633beb9e4
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Content-Length: 0

>From - Sat Nov 15 22:24:16 1997
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        by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA21139
        for <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:17:23 -0600
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        with Novell_GroupWise; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:19:52 -0800
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X-Sender: ShellShocked (Unverified)
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Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:13:25 -0800
To: toto at sk.sympatico.ca
From: Ann Oy <annoy at innocent.com>
Subject: RTFM-709
In-Reply-To: <346E4255.702B at sk.sympatico.ca>
References: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2 at one.net.au>
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>From - Sat Nov 15 22:35:14 1997
Received: from nsm.htp.org ([210.141.239.33] (may be forged))
        by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA25016
        for <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:34:36 -0600
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Delivered-To: mailing list cypherpunks-e at htp.org
Message-ID: <346E7541.5A13 at one.net.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:23:29 -0600
From: Jason <rennie at one.net.au>
Reply-To: cypherpunks at toad.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: [cpe:4407] Re: Mail interception
References: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2 at one.net.au>
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David E. Smith wrote:
> Jason wrote:
> > So, does anybody know how to or where i can get information on
> > intercepting email from ?
> >
> > Any help that can be provided would be greeatly appreciated.

> Jason,
> Some asshole spoofed the list with the wrong reply address for the
> Information Server at Sympatico. 
> The correct address is: Information Server <ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca>
> Your subject header should be: "Help"
> The body of the message should contain: "email security"
>
> I hope this helps. 

Dave,
  It worked, thanks. It is a shame that a few jerkoffs have to spoil
the list for everyone else.

regards jason

>From - Sat Nov 15 22:39:32 1997
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
        by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA25972
        for <toto at sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:38:22 -0600
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Message-ID: <346E77AA.70F7 at bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:33:46 -0600
From: "David E. Smith" <dave at bureau42.ml.org>
Reply-To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Organization: Bureau42 Enterprises - An EFF Subsiduary
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Ann Oy <annoy at innocent.com>
CC: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Email Interception Information
References: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2 at one.net.au>
<4.0.32.19971115201303.00e102f0 at postoffice.pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Content-Length: 227

Ann Oy wrote:
>

Ann,
  The correct address for the Information Server at Sympatico is:
Information Server <ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca>
  Use a subject header of "Help" and put "email security" in the
message body.

Dave







From kent at songbird.com  Mon Nov 17 19:21:18 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:21:18 +0800
Subject: Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
In-Reply-To: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <19971117190850.56376@songbird.com>



On Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 06:49:45PM -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
[...]
> In the meantime, I wanted to find a quick and dirty list of informal
> logical fallacies, and, while I was at it, I bumped into Mission:Critical,
> which is fairly comprenensive website on logic an critical thinking.
> Evidently you can earn college credit on it, for those of you who need
> college credit. :-). Here it is.
> 
> http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/
> 
> Also, I've found a reasonable list of informal fallacies, from
> <http://ddi.digital.net/~setzerl/LOGIC.htm>, (which see for applicable
> attributions) which I've appended here. That way, you can all keep score at
> home. Expect me to use a bunch, whether I want to or not... :-). Notice
> that argumentum ad hominem is when you discount someone's opinion because
> of who they are or what they do. Vuperative insults, it seems, are another
> thing altogether.  :-).

Another very good source on critical thinking is the alt.athiesm faq.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 17 19:22:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:22:58 +0800
Subject: Racism: Wrong or incorrect?
In-Reply-To: <199711161339.HAA15536@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b096a7ce6df0@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:38 AM -0700 11/15/97, Monty Cantsin wrote:

>Racism is one of those very interesting topics to discuss because
>large areas of the discussion are forbidden territory.
>

"Forbidden territory"? Not to me it isn't. I've seldom shied away from such
debate, except for a brief period in college when the local black
potentate, Judy McClellan, had her squad of black enforcers to beat up
anyone who spoke out against the black view on things. (Shades of Winnie
Mandela, multiple murderess.)

Since then I've acquired guns, and moved far away from where blacks
congregate in large numbers.


>Of course, what is most interesting about Tim's comments is that he
>appears to be out on the end of three bell curves in the United
>States:
>
>1. He does not believe (I think) that it is morally wrong to have a
>racist belief.
>
>2. He does not believe racist beliefs are a correct description of
>reality.
>
>3. He says what he thinks.

You left out I.Q. and general common sense. As Hettinga would put it:  ":-)".

(Period moved outside of quotes, despite rules of grammar, to avoid
confusion with the smiley.)

In any case, yes, I write what I think. I worked long and hard to ensure
that I can say whatever I damned well please.

>Another curious aspect of the taboos on racial discussions is the
>weird racially defined double standard of conduct.  Black power is
>more or less an acceptable topic of discussion.  White power is
>absolutely not.  Why?

Indeed, the "Black Student Union" is acceptable, but the "White Student
Union" is not only nonexistent on U.S. campuses, but it would probably be
forcibly shut down by law enforcement, or lawuits (same difference, these
days).

Ditto for "Black Studies." How many "Aryan Studies" programs do you see?

(I am well acquainted with the dominant leftist paradigm: "All fields,
espeically scientific fields, are expressions of the dominant whitemale
dead European cracker dominance of discourse. Marginalized peoples must
reclaim their voice by establishing safe havens for expression of their
racial and cultural aspirations.")

Seems some kinds of racism are more equal than others.


Fuck these racists.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 17 19:39:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:39:28 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4545] Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
Message-ID: <199711180328.EAA15488@basement.replay.com>



TruthMonger wrote:
>Robert Hettinga wrote:
>>  Notice
>> that argumentum ad hominem is when you discount someone's opinion because
>> of who they are or what they do. Vuperative insults, it seems, are another
>> thing altogether.  :-).
>
>  Right... Like we're going to believe this when communist pedophile 
>Nazi cocksucker Robert Hettinga tells it to us.

Careful, TM, you're starting to sound like a member of the Usenet Kook Cabal.

>  I bet that when I look up 'vuperative' in the dictionary, he'll be
>wrong about that, too.

I was stuck on 'vituperative.' Shows what I know. But 'attack the messenger,
not the message' is old news here.

>AdHomineMonger

Kiss my ass. :-)







From sherman at gl.umbc.edu  Mon Nov 17 19:52:54 1997
From: sherman at gl.umbc.edu (Dr. Alan Sherman)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:52:54 +0800
Subject: Two views on encryption policy
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.971117222943.1781F-100000@pomeranian.cs.umbc.edu>




I would like to air the following lectures on the
Mbone, through videotaping and rebroadcast.  Our
AV Dept. will charge $50 for a basic videotaping.
Would anyone like to donate $50 to UMBC
to make this happen?  (Please make out check
to "UMBC".)  Thanks.

Dr. Alan T. Sherman
Dept. of Computer Science and Electrical Engineering
UMBC
1000 Hilltop Circle
Baltimore, MD 21250

sherman at cs.umbc.edu
(410) 455-2666
-------------------------------------------------
   The UMBC Security Technology Research Group presents

	     Two Views on Encryption Policy:

I.  Wisdom and Constitutionality in US Cryptography Policy
 John Gilmore, Co-Founder, Electronic Frontier Foundation

  II. A Law-Enforcement Perspective on Encryption Policy
       Barry Smith, Supervisory Special Agent, FBI

Two divergent views on the topic of encryption policy by
freedom activist John Gilmore and FBI spokesperson Barry
Smith.  Journalist Peter Wayner will moderate the event,
which is free and open to the public.

  8-10:30 pm
  Tuesday, December 16, 1997
  Lecture Hall III 
  University of Maryland Baltimore County
  http://www.cs.umbc.edu/events/fall97/crypto.shtml

The fifth employee of Sun Microsystems and a strong believer
in the U.S. Constitution, John Gilmore is currently involved
in litigation against several government agencies over
matters of freedom of information, freedom of expression,
and encryption policies.  He will discuss the
constitutionality of controlling encryption. Barry Smith
will articulate the needs of law enforcement to conduct
lawful wiretaps; he will advocate the use of key-recovery
techniques to achieve this end as a way that provides
adequate privacy to law-abiding citizens.

Directions: Take Exit #47B off interstate I-95 and follow
signs to UMBC.  LH III is on the ground floor of the (tall)
administration building, adjacent the visitor's parking
lot, near the I-95 entrance to UMBC.

Host: Dr. Alan T. Sherman
      Associate Professor, Computer Science
      sherman at cs.umbc.edu
      http://www.umbc.edu
      (410) 455-2666

     This event is held in cooperation with the UMBC
	       Intellectual Sports Council






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Mon Nov 17 19:53:41 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:53:41 +0800
Subject: How anonymous?
In-Reply-To: <145e152a12d12c409f67fd9e4aaa33f4@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971117211842.25093D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>



It would seem that if you are able to profile Dick's writing style to 
such a degree that you can verify that a post is from Dick, then I can 
profile Dick's writing style in such a way as to accurately mimic Dick. 
On the other hand, if you knew Dick, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> > It seems that if Dick has a certain vocabulary,
> > uses a certain sentence structure, etc., and
> > regularly posts using a nym, that this form and
> > content could be traced to Dick, so the likelihood
> > of the post coming from him and not Jane would
> > be that much increased.
> 
> This is true.  Probably most people know who I am.
> 
> 






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Nov 17 19:54:25 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:54:25 +0800
Subject: Reputed child molester Joichi Ito exporting kiddie porn from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711171623.QAA01215@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <yHgcge15w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>
> Joichi Ito <jito at eccosys.com> writes:
> > At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > > This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too
> > > sensitive to engage in robust debate.
> >
> > This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust
> > debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will
> > probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me
> > no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.
>
> I am not sure why discussion should lower your reputation capital,
> unless open discussion is frowned upon by those who you wish to
> influence.  Perhaps you fear that you will be dismissed as a
> cypherpunk, a hardliner, whilst you are trying to appear less radical.

Because Ito-san is a lying sack of shit. "I support crypto, although
not for the four horsemen." "My country will export pornography involving
underage schoolgirls, but not the RSA chip." "Politically incorrect racists
must be silenced". Fuck you, Ito-sun. Go suck a sashimi.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov 17 19:58:19 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:58:19 +0800
Subject: How anonymous?
Message-ID: <2069a5e2f999960574b51cd3dcbceac3@anon.efga.org>



>If all anonymous posters make a concerted effort to write like Mr.
>Nakatuji, not only will anonymity be assured, but the list will be a *lot*
>funnier.

I not RSA know how can be used, please to me send about anonymous
information messages.






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 17 20:00:32 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:00:32 +0800
Subject: Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
In-Reply-To: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b096b2d7b4c9@[207.167.93.63]>



At 4:49 PM -0700 11/17/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>It's a shame that Tim seems to have killfiled me at this point. Usually, I
>like it, because then I can post stuff here without him tearing me a new
>asshole very time.  This time, since I'm doing the tearing, maybe he's just
>hiding. Which is fine, because he can run, but he can't hide on this crap
>anymore...

You give yourself too much credit, Little Bunny Rabbit.

Given that I've been posting, and you haven't, you appear to be delusional
as well as frightened.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 17 20:02:57 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:02:57 +0800
Subject: You're Dead
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971117065157.20387D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <34710FAD.741B@dev.null>



David E. Smith wrote:
> 
> > In InfoWarriors-Alpha (Beyond the Valley of the Planet of the
> > Return of the InfoWarriors) I put a link to bureau42 from the
> > text: cyberassassination scheme. I was going to put a pointer
> > to the file itself, but couldn't get the URL. Feel free to
> > change it on your copy, if you like.
> 
> Fixed. This latest incarnation of the saga will be at
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/warriors/ . BTW, if you know of places where
> I can get reliable, non-censored, decent-bandwidth, and cheap! web space let
> me know. The account which is the home for bureau42 is dangerously close to
> its quota, and I can't yet afford to have that T1 piped into my apartment.
> (sigh)

Dave,
  You must be a boonie-dweller, like myself. I live in an area where,
if I lose my account, I have no options. It amazes me that I have been
able, thus far, to send thinly veiled death threats to world leaders
and The Richest Man in the US (TM) without being 'killed or caught.'

> > p.s. - Do you have any good pointers to email interception
> > information? My little 'spoof' has resulted in quite a few
> > inquiries and I should probably send these poor people the
> > best info I can, to keep from going to CypherHell.
> 
> Heh. I'm sure, given all the research you and your people did for that
> InfoWarriors document, you can come up with something on your own. Some
> places to start: dig up information on the major NAPs, like MAE-East and the
> two or so incarnations of MAE-West; since something like 80% of traffic on
> the whole damn internet is routed through one of those, regardless of where
> it's going, a tap there could prove interesting indeed. (And I recall seeing,
> a few months ago, a cute article on MAE-East, which lives in the basement of
> a parking garage in New Jersey. Talk about security through obscurity.)

  For all of the 'dire predictions' that we hear about terrorists, etc.,
I find it amazing that systems such as those you mention are not
disabled
at will by these alleged 'enemies of mankind', despite their obvious
vulnerability. Could it possibly be that The Enemy (TM) is dancing with
our Protectors (TM) in a reality-spoof that consists of
behind-the-scenes
Puppeteers pulling our strings?

  The (successful) attempts of grey-shrouded background entities to
launch attacks on Tim May, the CypehrPunks list, etc., have given many
of those I communicate with privately cause to believe that it may be
time for The Movement (TM) to move underground, once again.
  What is interesting is that, for all of my paranoid, conspiratorial
rantings, I am only a fool making light parody of the true dark forces
which are operating in the background of our reality. Anyone who thinks
I jest about this might want to get a second opinion from Jim Bell...

  After cleaning up my Sympatico web site, I will send you the
information you need to access it. Feel free to use it as a temporary
solution to your space constraints, but keep in mind that it may well
be yanked at any moment.
  Perhaps someone with a direct InterNet connection will be able to
provide you with the needed cyberspace.
  To me, *you* are one of the "Heroes of the Revolution," as are all
of the remailer operators, Eternity Server developers, and slant-eyed
schills such as Joichi Ito, who are trying to make the best of a bad
situation (TM) in an attempt to move toward a goal which is very
likely improbable, impossible, or just plain inexplicable.

As the 'Youth in Asia Society' says: "Kill The President!"

TruthMonger






From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 17 20:07:01 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:07:01 +0800
Subject: How anonymous?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971117211842.25093D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <347111E8.6910@dev.null>



Rabid Wombat wrote:
> 
> It would seem that if you are able to profile Dick's writing style to
> such a degree that you can verify that a post is from Dick, then I can
> profile Dick's writing style in such a way as to accurately mimic Dick.
> On the other hand, if you knew Dick, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

  I *know* dick, and you're not Dick!

  ...uuhhh...is that an insult? I'm confused...

ConfusedMonger






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 17 20:19:35 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:19:35 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711180415.WAA20098@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:49:44 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>
> Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)

> Austin redneck hippie, Jim Choate, wrote:

OH, that is truly funny...

Just 'cause I happened to be raised by hippies doesn't mean I am a hippie.
Backfield in motion...Sugar Sugar...

> > > From: TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>
> > > Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9)
> > >   Electronic communication is a bare-bones ASCII interpretation of
> > > our intended communication. i.e. - stripped of intonation and other
> > > physical gestures which convey a meaning beyond the mere words we
> > > speak, in themselves.
> > >   Although there are some rudimentary ASCII images (:>) which can be
> > > used to add elements of shared emotional or conceptual constructs to
> > > the message we are attempting to convey.
> > >
> > >   The Medium IS the Message.
> > 
> > You clearly don't read real books...especialy those of the great authors of the
> > world.
> 
>   Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, had no idea what it meant...

Exactly. Thank you for being so obliging.

> > People who believe the spin doctorism 'The medium is the message' usualy
> > spend their time watching television or working for it.
> 
>   Those who *do*not* believe 'The medium is the message' usually think
> that Socrates' world-veiw would have been exactly the same if he had
> been using the InterNet as his means of viewing and communicating with
> the world.

Who's Socrates?

A more interesting question is whether the technology would have impacted his
base psychology...

I know this, way down deep there is a fundamental dialog between people and
all the technology in the world doesn't change that. Those base topics are
what define human societies. If this weren't so then how can the human
experience be so stable over recorded history & cultures? Why do we discuss
the exact same sorts of questions all societies & individuals have asked?

But, to counter your suggestion, please be so kind as to demonstrate your
evidence where the method of expression might have changed the basic
fundamentals of his dialogue? What are those fundamental issues that you
claim have changed so radicaly? While your'e at it, how about extrapolating
that nifty keen cliological analysis to say 500 years into the future and
explain your own biases and bigottries? You can leave the whip and chains
out of the dialog, those never change.

I would propose that there are more fundamental issue than the level of
technology. For example, consider the impact of experimentation on a
basicaly experiential world-view as that commen in ancient Greece. As
another example, consider the reaction when pi was shown to be irrational
and this knowledge was banned upon pain of death. Clearly we have the
technology yet we have not escaped the more base human experience. The
reality would seem to indicate that no, the most base messages of Socrates,
Sun Tzu, Christ, or the cypherpunks are still the same old ones...

 -  People are people, people are strange

 -  What makes one person happy is guaranteed to piss somebody else off

 -  Most people will never figure the first two out even if you tell
    them the answers

> > >   Until the email/communications medium evolves to allow us the ability
> > > to add not only smiles and winks, etc., but also chagrin, doubt, self-
> > > doubt, etc., to our online communications, the medium will remain an
> > > impediment to conveying the totality of our true message, as opposed to
> > > being merely an electronic version of 'pidgin Englich'.
> > 
> > This could happen provided we got rid of television and made graphics harder
> > to print...
> 
>   Right, Jim. Give us your prediction of when this is going to happen...
> (Yes, I *am* laughing at you...thanks for asking.)

Uh...like cold day in hell...

I'm beginning to think your attention span is tuned to those 30 second
blip-verts...and who asked? Are the voices back already?

>   Reality is that even when the medium evolves to the point where we
> can use it to convey the totality of what we are trying to convey, that

"convey the totality"? What kind of double-speak bullshit is that? 

Look junior, the absolutely *ONLY* way to express the 'totality' of an
experience is to be the one doing the experience. You can pop all the
moddies and daddies you wanna but it's still a pale imitation; a rose it is
not in any language. Now unless you have just instantly warped our happy
assess into the far flung future we are a long walk from plugging brains
together, nic's & protocols not withstanding.

> after we have done so the 'powers that be' will flash a graphic of
> us on the computer screen, making us look for all the world like a
> drug-dealing, terrorist pedophile.
>   There will be few sheeple with the dicrimination to recognize that,
> in your case, it is true, in 'my' case, it is not.
> 
> Not that I'm a troublemaker...

Well that's good, you shouldn't be as disappointed at your steady failures.

My suggestion, don't quit your day job, assuming your old enough to have a
job. They can't tell you're a dawg on the Internet.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Mon Nov 17 20:28:20 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:28:20 +0800
Subject: KC is an Idiot
Message-ID: <MOPAGGPJEBEOAAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:09 AM 11/17/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>You quite clearly don't know what you are talking about, little boy. 
>My Dad got me my first gun when I was around 8, 40 some years ago. 
By
>the time I was your emotional age (12) I knew that guns weren't toys.

Well, you got the edge on me there; I got my first when I was 12, but
my dad let me shoot his .357 Magnum when I was 7.

I recall a period of time when some punks were following me around
because I had ratted on one of their friends. I got tired of it, got a
B-27 silhouette target, and shot out the X-ring with my Para-Ordnance
P10.45. I nailed the used target to my front door, and started wearing
a fanny pack, and it was amazing how the punk sightings diminished
dramatically. I never even had to draw my gun--all I had to do was
convince them I carried one and was willing to use it effectively if
necessary. Of course, if you would rather be shot than live with the
consequences of shooting someone that is your choice. But saying that
having a gun wouldn't make a difference is pretty ignorant--it can
make a HUGE difference IF you are willing to use it--and pay attention
to your surroundings such that you have the gun in hand before you are
in the middle of a circle of assholes with drawn weapons.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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=sgBM
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Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 17 20:42:16 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:42:16 +0800
Subject: You're Dead
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971117065157.20387D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03102803b096bab88e9b@[207.167.93.63]>



At 8:46 PM -0700 11/17/97, TruthMonger wrote:

>  You must be a boonie-dweller, like myself. I live in an area where,
>if I lose my account, I have no options. It amazes me that I have been
>able, thus far, to send thinly veiled death threats to world leaders
>and The Richest Man in the US (TM) without being 'killed or caught.'

But I am nowhere near the Richest Man in the U.S., though I had lunch
several times with the 4th or 5th richest man in the U.S.

--TM

>  The (successful) attempts of grey-shrouded background entities to
>launch attacks on Tim May, the CypehrPunks list, etc., have given many
>of those I communicate with privately cause to believe that it may be
>time for The Movement (TM) to move underground, once again.

There's that TM again. I may be a shit to some, but I'm not _The_ Movement.
Trademark, Truth Monger, Tim May, or The Movement.


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov 17 20:48:07 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:48:07 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <23aaeadc7b197cfa0578eccf7f284749@anon.efga.org>



Since Gary Burnore has been making posts in the alt.privacy.anon-server NG
about how remailers are supposedly being "abused" in order to "forge"
articles in his name, I figure it's time to repost a Usenet article from
Jeff Burchell, operator of the Huge Cajones Remailer, about Gary Burnore's
harassment which ultimately convinced him to shut down the remailer, in
order to document Mr. Burnore's modus operandi, in case he attempts a
similar attack against another remailer:

--- BEGIN INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

Subject:      Jeff's Side of the Story.
From:         toxic at hotwired.com (Jeff Burchell)
Date:         1997/07/01
Message-ID:   <5pbnoe$f29$1 at re.hotwired.com>
Followup-To:  alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,
              alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,
              alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,
              news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Organization: Content, Inc
Newsgroups:   alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,
              alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,
              alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,alt.cypherpunks,
              comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc


Anonymous (nobody at REPLAY.COM) wrote:

: > Only Jeff knows the whole story.

Actually, not even I know the whole story.  If I truely knew who it was
that was orchestrating this attack, it would have stopped, one way or
another.  The problem is, I don't know all the players (I have some
suspicions, which I'll elaborate on further in a little bit) but I don't
_really_ know who did it, and I really don't know why (other than a "I
don't like remailers, I think I'll shut one down").  And I really don't
know the background or what precipitated this.

: > But I have to ask. Could this
: > just be an" I'm sick of this shit, f**k it, I quit, who needs this
: > aggravation, I'll just pull the plug and go have a beer" reaction
: > to what really seems like a fairly small problem.

It is not a small problem anymore when you're getting >200 complaint
messages a day, plus 5-10 phone calls to your employer (and your
employer's legal department).  Fortunately, Wired is a very progressive
company, and supported my efforts to provide anonymity, but our lawyers
aren't paid to answer phone calls on my behalf.  Running a remailer is
one thing... getting harassed at work is an entirely different matter, and
getting a THIRD PARTY harassed at work is yet another one.

But yes, The ultimate "take this thing down" decision was one made
because I was sick of this bullshit.  But you know what?  I volunteer
my time, my computer equipment, and bandwidth that is given to me
as part of my salary.  I do (well did) all of this because I believe
that anonymity is a right, and because I have the capabilities of
helping to provide anonymity to the masses.  When the remailer was
self-sufficient (before the attacks started), it took maybe 10 minutes
of my time a day, and minimal resources on my machine.  Afterwards,
even after I put in the auto-blocking feature (send a blank message
to a particular address and get your address blocked) and the
autoresponder on the remailer-admin account, I was still getting >100
messages a day reporting abuse... almost all of it spam-bait related.
I receive no benefit from running the remailer (I don't even use it
myself), and when it becomes a fairly major hassle without any
rewards, the decision is not a hard one to make.

And frankly, I already have enough to do, and get enough mail on a
daily basis (at last check it was hovering around 600 messages/day).
As soon as the remailer started taking up a lot of my time, it became
time to rethink why I was running it.  The moment that the spam-baiter
started alerting people who had been baited, and telling them to
contact me, it became personal.  And I don't have time to get into
personal pissing-contests.  Yes, I took the easy way out, but that
was my choice to make.

Anyone who doesn't run a remailer has very little right questioning my
 choice, because you have no idea what precipitated it.  Most people
reading this group have the capabilities of running a remailer (it only
takes a POP account and a Windows machine to run the Winsock remailer),
but very few of us actually do.  Why is that?  I've been running huge.
cajones for just under 2 years, and it averaged just over 3000 messages
a day, so my remailer was responsible for about 2 million anonymous
messages in its lifetime.  I think I've done my part (at least for now),
it's time for someone else to do theirs.  If we had 15 disposable remailers
that operated for 2-3 months each before moving/going away, we'd have
paths for millions more anonymous messages.  And isn't that what we're
really trying to provide?

: The first was doing questionable things, like installing content-based
: filtering in an attempt to placate the attacker.  Giving in to the demands

When I first put the filters in, I was entirely unaware of exactly what
the hell was going on.  It seemed that someone had a bone to pick with
databasix, and was using the remailer to get databasix harassed by
third parties.  So, Burnore's complaint seemed reasonable at the time, and
I tried to come up with a way to block spam-bait abuse, without blocking
anything else (like a reply to burnore in Usenet).

See, if someone was doing to me what they appeared to be doing to Burnore,
I would be pissed.  I figured placating him would be the best thing to
do.  In hindsight, I was wrong, but at the time, it seemed like the correct
decision.  (Also at the same time, the SPA threatened Wired with a
lawsuit because of The MailMasher, so things were a little tense between
me and the legal department already, I didn't need to make them any worse.)

The final content-based-filter (there was an interim one) looked for the
 following things:

1. Any address at databasix (Yes, at the request of Burnore)
2. Any address from my destination block list
3. More than 5 addresses in a row, one line each, without other content
   in-between.
4. Patterns of particular Usenet groups.
5. Particular subject lines.

If any THREE of these items were spotted, the message got thrown into a
reject bin.  I periodically examined the reject bin, and can personally
attest that it didn't block ANYTHING that it wasn't intended to.  (The
test posts reeked of spam-bait to me, and I believe were correctly
blocked)

FWIW, the filters were removed about a week ago.

Because the filters were looking for a specific form of ABUSE, and not
just doing basic pattern matches, I don't consider them to be "content
filters".  I would think that just about anyone would agree that
posting lists of email addresses to mlm newsgroups would qualify
as abuse, and _should_ be blocked.   Blocking of this nature does NOT
restrict free speech (or at least that is not the intentions of it), and
it would keep the remailer out of lawsuit territory.

See, the big problem with lawsuits is not the fact that _I_ don't want
to be sued.  The problem is that anyone with half a brain can determine
that Wired is somehow related to any remailer that I am running on their
bandwidth.  Wired has deeper pockets than Mr. Burchell, so they are a
much better group to sue... and they are a lot more willing to give
in to a threat than I am.

: What I *MIGHT* have done was to respond as follows:
:
:    Your legal demands are unacceptable.  I'd rather close the remailer than
:    compromise its integrity to suit your whims.  But understand this -- unless
:    you withdraw your demands, I will not only close the remailer but also make
:    damn sure all of its users know exactly who forced me to take this action!

I did respond in a fashion much like this, about a week before the attacks
started coming.  Mr. Burnore requested a copy of my (non-existant) logs.
I told him to get me something in writing, signed by his lawyer that
stipulated that the logs were confidential, and not to be revealed to
anyone outside of the lawyer's office.

I received a letter from Belinda Bryan.  She is not registered with the
State Bar of California, and is thus, not a California lawyer.  I then
ignored the request, and forwarded the correspondence to the State
Attorney General's office (as impersonating a lawyer in CA is defined
as fraud with extenuating circumstances).  They have been working with
me and the San Francisco DA's office.  Look out DataBasix... I'm not done
with you yet.

: The second mistake I perceive is not fully disclosing the circumstances that
: brought down Huge Cajones, and *NAMING NAMES*.  That way, even if the remailer
: shuts down, other remailer operators will learn about the tactics employed
: against it, know *WHO* made the demands, etc.  IOW, when you get an innocent
: sounding, polite complaint from xxxx at yyy.com alleging "abuse", here's the
: scenario that's likely to follow ...  (It's not too late to make that
: disclosure, Jeff.)

In fact, now is the time to.  Making a disclosure like this while I
was still running the remailer would have probably been a bad move.
Now that the remailer is closed, I'll name the names that I've got.

Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an
anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
coincidences of timing.

I still don't know what the hell is going on with DataBasix, Wells Fargo
and Gary Burnore, but I suspect that someone used huge.cajones to say
something extremely unflattering about Burnore (from what I can tell,
he had it coming).  Burnore then decided that he would make things
difficult for me.  First, he wanted the user who had posted something
"inflammatory" about him revealed.  When I told him that I couldn't
do that, he carried on about mail logs and identifying the host that
a message came from (the usual).  I didn't explain to him that my
machine keeps logs, but not anything involving a *@cajones.com
address.  He then requested the logs, which I denied (and told him
to get his lawyer to send a request...)

I'll admit, after my second or third contact with Mr. Burnore, I
no longer was particularly civil with the guy.  He's a kook, and
really didn't deserve my courtesy.

Between the time he first contacted me, and the time I received the
letter from Belinda Bryan, is when the baiting of databasix addresses
began (slowly, with just a few posts).  After a while, I received
requests from the other members of DataBasix (including William McLatchie
(sp) (aka wotan) who actually seems to be a remailer supporter (?)).

It was at this point that I realized something was completely amiss.
I asked McLatchie to please tell me the story of DataBasix, and he
said that he was going to, but never did.  Anyone who can tell me
the story is invited to do so.

As a side note (and just because I am naming names).  Peter Hartly
(hartley at hartley.on.ca) yesterday spam-baited me.  Fortunately,
I've got good filters in place.

As another side note, I've seen nothing to make me believe that Belinda
Bryan is even a real person.  Anyone?

: > Given the importance of what Jeff was doing, I hope that he
: > did all that he could, before declaring defeat. If that is the case,
: > I commend him for a job well done. If not, why?

I can't claim to have done _everything_ that I could have done, but I
did certainly make an effort.  I'm not willing to go to court to defend
a practice like spam-baiting (and given the current public-opinion situation
and impending anti-UCE legislation, this would be a terrible test-case).

I am not new to threats of lawsuit, even ones that come from legitimate
lawyers.  About 8 months previous, I was threatened repeatedly by the
legal wing of the "Church" of Scientology.  I answered with a letter
from my lawyer that explained the policies of the remailer, and
threatened a harrassment lawsuit if the "Church" contacted me again asking
for information (that they now knew I didn't have) about a remailer user.
They complied, and went away (and haven't been too difficult with
other remailer operators lately).

: Agreed.  Otherwise, these "asshole(s)" are simply going to do it all over
: again against another remailer, eventually taking them all down one at a time.
Except that right now, new remailers are springing up.  If we could get
three more online for every one shut down, it wouldn't much matter, would
it?  I may very well end up running a mailer again in the future, but if
I do, it will probably be either a throwaway exit-man or a truely anonymous
middleman (i.e. nobody will actually know who is running it).  It also
will probably be hosted outside of the United States (Floating in
international waters with a sat feed would be nice).

: It's time for them to stand up and say "Next time you come for one of us
: he's
: not going quietly as the others have.  You'll have to face ALL of us at once,
: instead."

Aah, you imagine much more solidarity among remailer operators than actually
exists.  It doesn't work that way.  It would be nice if it did, but many of
us are running remailers on borrowed bandwidth (or have other "situations"
to be concerned about).  Being the squeaky wheel is not always a good idea
for many of the operators (most of whom try to keep a low profile).

The reality is, for all the good they do, remailers are tools that can
very easily be abused.  And, as the internet gets more and more commonplace,
the average Joe and Joesphine, who don't have the strict Cyber-Libertarian
viewpoints that are shared by most of us old-timers, will start to wonder
just why anyone would want to run a service that allows anyone to speak their
mind without fear of reprisal.  When you get people with more extreme
viewpoints (the ones who have a really legitimate need for anonymity) posting
all kinds of stuff to all kinds of places, it will get the attention of
Middle-America, which will then bring it to the attention of legislators.
Any time a legislator can say "This is a blow to Child Pornographers and
others who hide behind anonymity to commit crimes without fear of reprisal"
you can guarantee that the bill will pass.

When that happens, we're in trouble.  America is scared of computers, and
remailers are thought to be havens for the big 3 (Terrorists, Organized
Crime and Child Pornographers).  Now that the spammers are involved
(spammers possibly being hated more than the big 3), most users are
exposed to anonymous remailers in negative ways (Imagine what you would
think if the first time you heard about the existance of remailers, it
was because someone had spam-baited you, and then told you about it).

The right to anonymity in the US will be legislated away within 18 months,
partially because of spam.  I do hope there's a _good_ test case waiting,
and someone willing to fight it to the end, but I have my doubts.  Ultimately
the remailer network will be forced to move offshore, the way Crypto
development currently has.

Don't like the News?  Go out and make some of your own.

-Jeff

|o|                                                   |o|
|o| Jeff Burchell                     toxic at wired.com |o|
|o|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -|o|
|o|     I am not speaking for anyone but myself.      |o|
|o|                                                   |o|

--- END INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

This article is archived in DejaNews under their "old" database if you
wish to verify its authenticity.

--






From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Nov 17 20:51:12 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:51:12 +0800
Subject: OECD on E-Commerce Tax
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971118044218.00c09c00@pop.pipeline.com>



We offer an HTML version of OECD's paper:

   "Electronic Commerce: The Challenges to Tax Authorities 
   and Taxpayers"

   An Informal Round Table Discussion between Business 
   and Government

   To be held at the Marina Palace Hotel, in Turku, Finland 
   on Tuesday 18th November 1997

   http://jya.com/turku18.htm  (122K)

This is part of the documentation for a three-day conference
on "Dismantling the Barriers to Global Electronic Commerce,"
November 19-21, Turku, Finland, sponsored by the Government
of Finland and OECD, with help of the European Commission, 
Japan and BIAC, described at:

   http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/e-comm/dismantl.htm







From gayart at internetmedia.com  Tue Nov 18 12:56:08 1997
From: gayart at internetmedia.com (Joe Lang)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:56:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: College Wrestler Promotes Gay Art!
Message-ID: <bulk.6433.19971118145804@ns.internetmedia.com>


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Gay-art.com respects your online time and Internet privacy! 
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From brianbr at together.net  Mon Nov 17 20:56:09 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:56:09 +0800
Subject: See How They Lie (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711180448.XAA25096@mx02.together.net>



http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe/globehtml/317/See_how_they_lie.htm

SEE HOW THEY LIE

By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist, 11/13/97 

This column is about lying, so let me just confess, full-disclosurewise,
that I have on occasion failed to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth. Like everyone else, I learned early on that
honesty is sometimes the best policy - for getting in trouble. My father
often warned my siblings and me that if we got caught doing something
wrong, we would be punished, but if we got caught lying, the punishment
would be doubled. Naturally, we lied, hoping not to get caught at all.
Sometimes it even worked.

So, yes, I've told my share of fibs and fabrications. But it is one thing
to bend the truth in hopes of not being punished. It is something rather
different to shamelessly falsify one's personal history in order to score
cheap political points.

Which brings us to James Ware, a federal judge nominated by President
Clinton to the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. 

For years, Judge Ware has been telling a heartbreaking story about his
youth in Birmingham. It occurs during the racial turmoil of 1963, shortly
after the deadly bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. James is
bicycling to a football game; his kid brother Virgil, a 13-year-old, is
riding on the handlebars. Suddenly two white racists open fire.

The gunshots knocked Virgil off the bike, Judge Ware recalled in a 1994
interview with the San Jose Mercury News, one of many occasions on which
he has told the story. ''He died there by the side of the road.''
Understandably, the murder of his brother left a deep mark. ''What
happened to me,'' Ware said, ''was a defining experience, a turning point
in my life.''

As well it might have been - if it were true. A young man named Virgil
Ware was murdered in Birmingham in 1963, but he was no relation to the
judge. To further his own career, James Ware simply helped himself to
another family's grief and martyrdom. Not until last week, when an
Alabama paper tracked down Virgil Ware's true relatives and confronted
Judge Ware with the facts, did he admit being a liar. 

Obviously his nomination to the Ninth Circuit is blown. But the president
shouldn't give up on Ware quite yet. This faker would be perfect for the
administration. After all, someone prepared to lie so brazenly about his
own past ought to feel right at home with the Clinton-Gore crowd.

Consider former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, who just published a memoir
filled with stormy scenes that never happened. In one episode, he
describes a 1995 appearance before the Joint Economic Committee. As Reich
tells it, US Representative Jim Saxton, the Republican chairman, flayed
him mercilessly. ''Where did you learn economics, Mr. Secretary?''
Saxton demands. Then, pointing to a chart, Saxton jumps up and down in
his chair, crying ''Evidence! Evidence!''

Pure fiction, discovered Jonathan Rauch, a respected Washington editor,
when he checked the transcript. ''I was flabbergasted,'' Rauch wrote in
Slate, ''so I checked the C-SPAN tapes, and they leave no doubt. Reich
appears to have fabricated much of this episode for dramatic effect.
Saxton was, in fact, decorous and polite. He did not jump up and down ...
he did not shout `Evidence! Evidence!''' Most of the quotations Reich
attributes to Saxton ''appear never to have been said at all.''

Reich doesn't deny making up events and quotations. ''These are my
perceptions,'' he shrugs. ''I might have goofed.'' Mmm-hmm. The same way
Judge Ware ''goofed.''

At least Reich never exploited the death of a close relative. Vice
President Al Gore, by contrast, mesmerized the 1996 Democratic convention
with the story of his sister's death from lung cancer 12 years earlier.
Gore detailed his ''final hours'' with Nancy and said the ''nearly
unbearable pain'' of her death made him take a vow: ''Until I draw my
last breath, I will pour my heart and soul into the cause of protecting
our children from the dangers of smoking.''

Very moving. But Gore almost certainly made no such vow. For years
following Nancy's death, he pocketed annual earnings from his family's
tobacco crop. In 1988 he boasted to North Carolina voters, ''I raised
tobacco. I want you to know that with my own hands, all of my life, I put
it in the plant beds and transferred it. I've hoed it. I've chopped it.
I've shredded it, spiked it, put it in the barn and stripped it and sold
it.''

When challenged on the inconsistency, the VP explained that ''you never
fully learn the lessons that life has to teach you.'' How profound.
Sounds like just the guy James Ware would enjoy working for.

Then there is Clinton himself, who is not above exploiting any tragedy if
there is political benefit in it. During the rash of church burnings in
1996, Clinton solemnly told a national radio audience that he has ''vivid
and painful memories of black churches being burned in my own state when
I was a child.'' 

It must indeed have been a traumatic experience. Except - there weren't
any black churches burned in Arkansas when Clinton was a child. The
Arkansas Democrat-Gazette checked: Not one civil rights leader or
historian could confirm Clinton's ''memories.'' Once again the president
had ''told a lie designed to make him look good,'' the paper concluded.

Spinning lies to look good seems to be a specialty of the administration.
Tell me Ware wouldn't fit right in.

Jeff Jacoby is a Globe columnist. 

This story ran on page A29 of the Boston Globe on 11/13/97. 
� Copyright 1997 Globe Newspaper Company.




Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

"The reason worry kills more people than work is that more people worry
 than work" -- Robert Frost (1874-1963)







From vznuri at netcom.com  Mon Nov 17 20:59:54 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:59:54 +0800
Subject: secret life of bill clinton
Message-ID: <199711180449.UAA02113@netcom4.netcom.com>




based on rumor this book is selling extremely well.
why have you not seen it in the mainstream media? answer:
because the mainstream media is secretly controlled.

it is my opinion that we have the government we deserve
based on our total apathy and irresponsibility when it
comes to the political process, speaking as an american.

as slimy and corrupt as Bill is, I think he is just the
first layer of the rotteness and that there are many people
in government who are far more sinister who use him as a pawn
in even more diabolical schemes.

I think we are witnessing a scale of corruption at such
high levels and of such an extent as to have never
before been seen in western civilization.

the big question is whether the american public will wake
up before the next election, or whether nothing
will happen with "business as usual"...

buy this book and help free yourself from the invisible
prison we find ourselves in!!


------- Forwarded Message

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:05:21 -0600
From: jlbtexas <jlbtexas at swbell.net>
To: Ignition Point <Ignition-Point at majordomo.pobox.com>
Subject: IP: THE SECRET LIFE OF BILL CLINTON

THE SECRET LIFE OF BILL CLINTON
                           Book Review

By Cathy Leahy

Two hundred years ago Frenchman Alexis  de  Tocqueville  came  to
America  to analyze a fledgling democracy and he left celebrating
her  by  writing  "Democracy  in  America."   Four   years   ago,
Englishman  Ambrose  Evans-Pritchard came with that same hope and
instead has written America's eulogy in "The Secret Life of  Bill
Clinton".  After  reading  this  well written and well documented
book, one might wish  to  rename  it,   "The  Death  of  American
Democracy At The Hands of Bill Clinton."

And if one didn't know the book is about an  American  president,
one  would  think  it describes Hitler, Stalin or better yet, the
(now executed for their crimes) Ceaucescus of Romania.  In  fact,
Evans-Pritchard  warns that under the corruption of Bill Clinton,
"you can sniff the pungent odors of decay in  the  American  body
politic" that was in evidence in continental Europe in the 1920s.

This is a chilling account of  an  emerging  Clinton  pattern  of
lawlessness  with  the  witting  and  unwitting  complicity  of a
complacent establishment that should know  better.  And  although
Evans-Pritchard  doesn't  say  it, he paints a startling parallel
for anyone who has studied history and the rise of Adolf Hitler.

Like Hitler, Clinton used established rules to legally  establish
himself  and quickly went about subverting those same rules. Like
Hitler, once in  office  Clinton  set  about  politicizing  every
government  agency  under  his control, replacing established law
enforcement  with  his  own  loyalists  that  would  silence  his
critics.   Like  Hitler,  he  then  took  control of the press to
further silence  dissent,  although  Clinton  has  done  it  with
seduction  and  lies.   Then,  unencumbered by law, he went about
exterminating his inconvenient associates, two of whom were Vince
Foster  and  Jerry Parks.  That done, he must now create a reason
for people to give up their liberty in favor of safety  with  the
Oklahoma  City  bombing.  Hitler used his henchman to provoke and
help an already irate dissident, Marinus van der Lubbe,  to  burn
the  German  Reichstag  in  1933.  Clinton  used Oklahoma City to
expand his power. If not stopped - and  soon,  what  will  he  do
next?

Evans-Pritchard tells us of the Dixie Mafia and  about  Clinton's
rampant  corruption in Arkansas. He tells us that the Dixie Mafia
is far more dangerous than the Cosa Nostra. Thirty murders  in  a
ten  year period is nothing to Clinton's Dixie Mafia with its one
hundred and fifty.

This  book  is  a  portrait,  with  documentation,  of   American
despotism  that  we  never thought could happen.  Left to his own
devices, Clinton will  put  the  final  nail  in  the  coffin  of
American  democracy. The author does offer some hope, though, but
it will have to come from ordinary citizens who still believe  in
the rule of law.

But if Clinton is tried and convicted for his crimes, will he  be
punished  properly?  Will  he  be  locked  away  along  with  his
accomplices never to be heard from again or will he simply be set
out  to pasture, free to live out his goal of a "one world order"
with himself at the helm?

It's a frightening account but it is a "must  read"  by  we,  the
"ordinary   citizens."    And   although   America's   government
controlled schools will never  allow  it,  this  book  should  be
required reading in every classroom - to save the country.


[The Secret Life of Bill  Clinton.  By  Ambrose  Evans-Pritchard,
Regnery  Publishing,  Inc.,  Nov.  1997.  Available  through  the
Washington Weekly web site.]




  Published in the Nov. 17, 1997 issue of The Washington Weekly
  Copyright 1997 The Washington Weekly (http://www.federal.com)
          Reposting permitted with this message intact


**********************************************
To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
     majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com
with the message:
     subscribe ignition-point email at address
or
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**********************************************
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------- End of Forwarded Message






From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 17 21:00:08 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:00:08 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4563] Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711180415.WAA20098@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34711E65.9E2@dev.null>



Jim Choate, dipping into Hettinga and Young's drug stash, wrote:

> > From: TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>
> > Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) 
> > > People who believe the spin doctorism 'The medium is the message' usualy
> > > spend their time watching television or working for it.
> >
> >   Those who *do*not* believe 'The medium is the message' usually think
> > that Socrates' world-veiw would have been exactly the same if he had
> > been using the InterNet as his means of viewing and communicating with
> > the world.
> 
> Who's Socrates?

  He's the guy who edited this post so that those reading it will be
very confused as to who said what...

> I know this, way down deep there is a fundamental dialog between people and
> all the technology in the world doesn't change that. Those base topics are
> what define human societies. If this weren't so then how can the human
> experience be so stable over recorded history & cultures? Why do we discuss
> the exact same sorts of questions all societies & individuals have asked?

  What you say is true, but the fact of the matter is that our current
misperceptions are defined by the medium through which we
miscommunicate.
  True communication goes beyond the medium it passes through, but is
nonetheless limited by the capacity of the medium to convey what we are
trying to express. (As well as by the capacity of our experience to
interpret what we are receiving via that medium.)

> But, to counter your suggestion, please be so kind as to demonstrate your
> evidence where the method of expression might have changed the basic
> fundamentals of his dialogue? What are those fundamental issues that you
> claim have changed so radicaly? While your'e at it, how about extrapolating
> that nifty keen cliological analysis to say 500 years into the future and
> explain your own biases and bigottries? You can leave the whip and chains
> out of the dialog, those never change.

  The whips and chains are the best part...
  The Eskimos have something like 30 different words for "snow." If you
or I want to 'talk snow' with an Eskimo, our "method of expression"
(language) will be affected by the "basic fundamentals" by which our
differing languages are constructed. If we filter these already obvious
differences through different medium of communiations (words, pictures,
ASCII characters, etc.), then the "fundamental issues" will "change
radically" according to the number and type of filters that our
communications are interpreted through.
  500 years from now, my own biases and bigottries will be revealed
by the stripping away of the current commonly understood methods
of misdirection by which I attempt to disguise them, as well as
disguised by the the future misunderstandings of the unique meaning
that my current commonly understood methods of communication convey
to those steeped in the the peculularities of our era.
  i.e. - People drunk on Scotch, 500 years in the future, will 
understand what I just said, whereas even I, myself, am unlikely
to understand it in the morning, once I sober up.

> I would propose...

  Thanks, but I don't go that way...

>  -  People are people, people are strange
> 
>  -  What makes one person happy is guaranteed to piss somebody else off
> 
>  -  Most people will never figure the first two out even if you tell
>     them the answers

  Young and Hettinga are going to be really pissed when they find out
that you've been dipping into their 'stash'...
 
> I'm beginning to think your attention span is tuned to those 30 second
> blip-verts...and who asked? Are the voices back already?

  Nope. I'm wearing the aluminum foil hat...
 
> >   Reality is that even when the medium evolves to the point where we
> > can use it to convey the totality of what we are trying to convey, that
> 
> "convey the totality"? What kind of double-speak bullshit is that?

  I was hoping that I could slip that one by you.
 
> Look junior, the absolutely *ONLY* way to express the 'totality' of an
> experience is to be the one doing the experience. You can pop all the
> moddies and daddies you wanna but it's still a pale imitation; a rose it is
> not in any language. Now unless you have just instantly warped our happy
> assess into the far flung future we are a long walk from plugging brains
> together, nic's & protocols not withstanding.

  Whoa! Sounds like you took a few too many of the 'red' ones...
 
> My suggestion, don't quit your day job, assuming your old enough to have a
> job. They can't tell you're a dawg on the Internet.

  I'm a 13 year-old dawg, and I'm not wearing any panties.
(91 in people-years.)

SaggingTitsMonger






From Abstruse at technologist.com  Mon Nov 17 21:51:18 1997
From: Abstruse at technologist.com (Abstruse)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:51:18 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4563] Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711180415.WAA20098@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34712BC1.A6F@technologist.com>



TruthMonger wrote:
>   The whips and chains are the best part...
>   The Eskimos have something like 30 different words for "snow." If you
> or I want to 'talk snow' with an Eskimo, our "method of expression"
> (language) will be affected by the "basic fundamentals" by which our
> differing languages are constructed. If we filter these already obvious
> differences through different medium of communiations (words, pictures,
> ASCII characters, etc.), then the "fundamental issues" will "change
> radically" according to the number and type of filters that our
> communications are interpreted through.
>   500 years from now, my own biases and bigottries will be revealed
> by the stripping away of the current commonly understood methods
> of misdirection by which I attempt to disguise them, as well as
> disguised by the the future misunderstandings of the unique meaning
> that my current commonly understood methods of communication convey
> to those steeped in the the peculularities of our era.
>   i.e. - People drunk on Scotch, 500 years in the future, will
> understand what I just said, whereas even I, myself, am unlikely
> to understand it in the morning, once I sober up.
> 
> > I would propose...
> 
>   Thanks, but I don't go that way...
> 
> >  -  People are people, people are strange
> >
> >  -  What makes one person happy is guaranteed to piss somebody else off
> >
> >  -  Most people will never figure the first two out even if you tell
> >     them the answers
> 
>   Young and Hettinga are going to be really pissed when they find out
> that you've been dipping into their 'stash'...
> 
> > I'm beginning to think your attention span is tuned to those 30 second
> > blip-verts...and who asked? Are the voices back already?
> 
>   Nope. I'm wearing the aluminum foil hat...
> 
> > >   Reality is that even when the medium evolves to the point where we
> > > can use it to convey the totality of what we are trying to convey, that
> >
> > "convey the totality"? What kind of double-speak bullshit is that?
> 
>   I was hoping that I could slip that one by you.
> 
> > Look junior, the absolutely *ONLY* way to express the 'totality' of an
> > experience is to be the one doing the experience. You can pop all the
> > moddies and daddies you wanna but it's still a pale imitation; a rose it is
> > not in any language. Now unless you have just instantly warped our happy
> > assess into the far flung future we are a long walk from plugging brains
> > together, nic's & protocols not withstanding.
> 
>   Whoa! Sounds like you took a few too many of the 'red' ones...
> 
> > My suggestion, don't quit your day job, assuming your old enough to have a
> > job. They can't tell you're a dawg on the Internet.
> 
>   I'm a 13 year-old dawg, and I'm not wearing any panties.
> (91 in people-years.)
> 
> SaggingTitsMonger


Innuit words for snow..

     Aniugavinirq: very hard, compressed and frozen snow 

     Apijaq: snow covered by bad weather 

     Apigiannagaut: first snow of Autumn 

     Apimajug: snow-covered 

     Apisimajug: snow-covered, but not snowed in 

     Apujjag: snowed-in 

     Aput: snow 

     Aputiqarniq: snowfall on ground 

     Aqillutaq: new snow 

     Auviq: snow block 

     Katakaqtanaq: hardcrust snow that gives way underfoot 

     Kavisilaq: snow roughened by frost 

     Kiniqtaq: compact, damp snow 

     Mannguq: melting snow 

     Masak: wet, falling snow 

     Matsaaq: half-melted snow 

     Mauja: soft, deep snow footsteps sink in 

     Natiruvaaq: drifting snow 

     Pirsirlug: blowing snow 

     Pukajaak: sugary snow 

     Putak: crystalline, breaks into grains 

     Qaggitaq: snow ditch to trap caribou 

     Qaliriiktaq: snow layer of poor quality for an igloo 

     Qaniktaq: new snow on ground 

     Qannialaaq: light, falling snow 

     Qiasuqqaq: thawed snow that refroze with an icy surface 

     Qimugjuk: snow drift 

     Qiqumaaq: snow with a frozen surface after spring thaw 

     Qirsuqaktuq: light snow 

     Qukaarnartuq: crusted snow 

     Sitilluqaq: hard snow" 

SnowMonger (even though not anonymous..yet, subscribing to the
DrunkMonger tendencies)






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov 17 21:55:22 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:55:22 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <OuM0cZLf4l/0Z1D/Fl/cKA==@bureau42.ml.org>



On or About 16 Nov 97 at 16:30, Tim May wrote Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan:

> Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia
> could use it right now.

Yes, yes, yes.  This is the kind of talk I like.  Much better than the
talk of nukes, and guns.
 
> (No, this is not a joke. I favor full availability of any and all
> drugs to anyone who wants them. This makes the Triads and Yakuza
> allies in defeating the New World Order. The ComSec 3DES phones are
> a step in defeating the DEA, Interpol, and other police state
> agencies, but the RSA chip would make a lot of such things much more
> interesting.)

Thank you, Tim. You have a very excellent point, here.  All drugs should
be legal.  And I wish I had the balls to write this without using a 
remailer.  But I'm a pot dealer, so I can't.

Thanks for speaking for us.

PotSeller







From mpj at ebible.org  Mon Nov 17 22:25:36 1997
From: mpj at ebible.org (Michael Paul Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:25:36 +0800
Subject: http://www.cryptography.org - thanks to Bay Area Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117231359.009ce7e0@teal.csn.net>




A while ago, the Bay Area Cypherpunks took up a collection to help secure
the future of the North American Cryptography Archive. So far, I have used
part of that money to register the cryptography.org domain name and part of
it to partially cover some other expenses. Since the current main host site
is being freely lent to us, that donation should stretch for several years.
:-)

I have just changed jobs, and am working very long hours, but I still
manage to get a little time here and there to maintain the crypto site. If
nothing else, it provides a place for people who are concerned about
possible government persecution to publish their crypto software legally.
(I know that some people may differ with my interpretation of the current
rules, but what do you expect from FUD mud?)

Anyway, THANK YOU for your help. I am honored by your very tangible
expression of appreciation for keeping a crypto site open for years.

The new site is functional, now, and has a new name
(http://www.cryptography.org). I know that it could use some better
indexing, etc., but some of that may come in my spare time. :-)

To guard against various forms of disaster (natural or human), I am
encouraging others to mirror the site. (I claim no "compilation copyright"
- I just want this information to be freely available.) As the regulatory
climate changes, I will be watching for windows of legal opportunity (as we
almost had with the Bernstein case) to tear down the "front door" to the
archive and invite mirroring outside of North America. Until then, of
course, most (if not all) of the data in the archive is available outside
of North America. U. S. and Canadian citizens are clearly not the only ones
who understand and enjoy cryptography!

Note: nothing in this message should be construed as an invitation to
anyone to violate any valid applicable law.  ;-)

Thanks again, my friends.





Michael Paul Johnson    mailto:mpj at ebible.org (aka mpj at csn.net)
PO Box 1151             http://www.ebible.org/bible     <- Holy Bible
Longmont CO 80502-1151  http://www.cryptography.org     <- Crypto archive
USA       

PGP RSA key fingerprint (mpjA): 3E67 A580 0DFB D16A  6D52 D3A9 1C07 4E41
PGP DSS/DH fingerprint: 28AE B775 DD65 62C7 0717  ECDA 448F E0C7 17D7 47BB







From Biz-Man at Inteligence-9.com  Tue Nov 18 14:47:46 1997
From: Biz-Man at Inteligence-9.com (Biz-Man at Inteligence-9.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:47:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: -FREE Vitamins & Business-
Message-ID: <70940415_12782605>



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From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov 17 23:24:02 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:24:02 +0800
Subject: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <191ec603c49425d3e3971da9d01f0f1f@anon.efga.org>



Monty Cantsin writes:

>One of the things that appeals to me about the tools the cypherpunks
>are developing is the likelihood that they will end war.  What
>percentage of wars are instigated and organized by governments?  That
>is, how many wars can we think of in which a war originated in the
>population of country and dragged its unwilling government into the
>fray?  I cannot think of any.

That's a good point.  Cypherpunk technologies should actually _reduce_
the scope of violence, killing, death.  These technologies will
make it easier to bypass regulations and reduce government control.
Free access to communications will make it harder for governments
to use propaganda to direct popular opinion as they have in the past.
People communicating anonymously will be able to express unpopular views
without fear of retribution.

It's ironic that some of the greatest supporters of crypto privacy are
also the ones who call for more killing, who support terrorist actions
like the Oklahoma bombing or a nuclear massacre.  They don't seem to
understand what this technology is all about.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 17 23:24:23 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:24:23 +0800
Subject: Tentsicles
Message-ID: <199711180711.IAA12627@basement.replay.com>



                 IS FOSTER KEY TO "THE OCTOPUS?"
                          Editorial

    When you start digging into the circumstances surrounding the
death  of  White  House aide Vince Foster, a number of names keep
popping up that have popped up in relation to a number  of  large
scandals of the last two decades.

    Starting with the "October Surprise,"  the  alleged  plot  to
delay the release of hostages from Iran to after the presidential
election in 1980 in an attempt to embarrass President Carter,  it
is  indeed  striking  that  the hostages were released just a few
hours after President Reagan was sworn in.  A number of witnesses
have testified to the involvement of Vice President Bush and Earl
Brian in this secret plot. These witnesses,  all  CIA  or  Mossad
assets,  have  received the "Terry Reed treatment": indictment on
false charges and  thorough  discrediting.  But  it  was  another
source, White House staffer Barbara Honegger, who wrote the first
"October Surprise" book in 1989.

    It was early in the Reagan administration  that  Earl  Brian,
Richard Secord and others used their influence and connections to
make money on selling the pirated  PROMIS  software  from  Inslaw
Inc.  Former  OSS  agent Jackson Stephens is alleged to have made
money on PROMIS as well through his Arkansas Systematics Inc.  It
was  there  that Vince Foster, as a partner of Hillary Clinton in
the Rose Law Firm and representing Systematics,  became  involved
with the Inslaw affair.

    A much  bigger  scandal  of  government  corruption  was  the
Savings  and  Loan  scandal  of  the  1980.  The federally backed
savings-and-loans were not only looted by  crooks  and  criminals
but  also  by well-connected politicians who needed an easy buck.
Neil Bush and Bill and Hillary Clinton are just a few examples.

    Apparently not content with the hundreds of billions in S & L
loot  from  the  taxpayer, corrupt government officials turned to
drugs. The CIA-sponsored Contra re-supply  network  was  used  to
ship  illegal  drugs of incredible volume into the United States.
CIA assets Terry Reed and  L.D.  Brown  implicate  Bill  Clinton,
George  Bush and Oliver North with this operation. A confidential
CIA document obtained  by  the  Washington  Weekly  supports  the
involvement  of  George  Bush by linking him to arms-dealer Adnan
Khashoggi, Richard Secord, and CIA asset John Hull,  whose  ranch
in  Costa  Rica  was  used  for  transshipment  of drugs and arms
through Mena, Arkansas and other U.S. destinations.

    Another of these scandals during the 1980s  was  the  illegal
penetration of the bank that the CIA preferred - the BCCI Bank of
Crooks  and  Criminals.  Politicians  across  the  spectrum   are
implicated  in  taking  bribes  to  allow  this bank to take over
American banks with  the  help  of  Jackson  Stephens  and  Vince
Foster.  No serious investigations have been launched by the Bush
and Clinton Justice Departments.


    Leaving aside for a moment the dispute over  whether  any  of
these  scandals  have  been proven, there is one remarkable facet
about the facts as they have been presented: some names appear in
several of these alleged scandals.

    Topping the list is George Bush, the  only  CIA  director  to
become  President  of  the  United  States.  It  is  difficult to
reconcile these serious allegations with the rather decent public
image   of   George  and  Barbara  Bush.  But  to  dismiss  these
allegations out of hand is to accept a conspiracy that includes a
large  number  of unrelated witnesses naming the same culprits in
different scandals.

    But it  should  also  be  said  that  participants  in  these
scandals  may  have thought they acted to defeat Communism, where
the end would justify every means. After all, that was the  prime
objective of the CIA during the Cold War.

    Are these  the  arms  of  the  octopus  that  reporter  Danny
Casolaro  referred  to just before he was found dead in his hotel
room in 1991? He  told  friends  he  was  tracing  a  network  of
government  corruption  involving  Inslaw,  BCCI, and the October
Surprise. Washington D.C. attorney Paul Wilcher was  tracing  the
same Octopus when he was found dead three days after Vince Foster
died.

    Think back to the 1992 elections for  a  moment.  Did  George
Bush  bring  up  any  of  the  scandals  that could have defeated
Clinton?  Did he mention  Whitewater,  Cattlegate,  Paula  Jones,
Gennifer  Flowers,  Mena?   Why  not?  Did  he know that it could
backfire seriously because of what Bill Clinton knew  about  him?
Did  Bill  Clinton take advantage of that in his unlikely bid for
the presidency?


    What, then, is this Octopus? It appears to be an  association
between  rogue elements of the CIA and certain elected officials.
An analysis of these structures  will  show  that  corruption  is
inevitable.  The CIA has a budget of $28 billion, it assassinates
people without being held accountable  in  a  court  of  law,  it
operates  in  secret,  it  has  almost unlimited power and is not
subject to any meaningful  oversight.  Only  saints  could  avoid
corruption and abuse of power in such an environment.

    Then what can we do about it? Limit the budget  of  the  CIA,
limit  its  role,  subject it to greater outside scrutiny, expose
past scandals and hold individuals responsible for their  crimes.
Three  presidents tried to do just that: John F. Kennedy, Richard
Nixon, and Jimmy Carter. None of them stayed in office for  long,
and none of them achieved their goal.





Copyright (c) 1995 The Washington Weekly (http://www.federal.com)






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 00:08:59 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:08:59 +0800
Subject: I'm from the government, and I'm here to fuck you silly...
Message-ID: <199711180701.IAA11345@basement.replay.com>



                        INSLAW SUMMARY
                         By Bill Hamilton


The following information has been given to each member of the House
Judicary Committee and was placed on the Internet in electronic form
by Bill Hamilton of Inslaw Corporation.  The complete document with
supporting details may be obtained from:
 
    Inslaw
    1125 15th Street, NW
    Washington, DC 20005-2707
    Telephone (202) 828-8638
...
     One of the organizational units that reports to Mark Richard is
the Office of Special Investigations (OSI).  OSI's publicly-declared
mission is to locate and deport Nazi war criminals. The Nazi war
criminal program is, however, a front for the Justice Department's
own covert intelligence service, according to disclosures recently
made to INSLAW by several senior Justice Department career officials.
 
     One undeclared mission of this covert intelligence service has
been the illegal dissemination of the proprietary version of PROMIS,
according to information from reliable sources with ties to the U.S.
intelligence community.  INSLAW has, moreover, obtained a copy of a
27-page Justice Department computer printout, labelled "Criminal
Division Vendor List." That list is actually a list of the commercial
organizations and individuals who serve as "cutouts" for this secret
Justice Department intelligence agency, according to intelligence
community informants and a preliminary analysis of the computerized
list.  A significant proportion of the 100-plus companies on the list
appear to be in the computer industry.  The Justice Department's
secret intelligence agency also has its own "proprietary" company
that employs scores of agents of diverse nationalities, as well as
individuals who appear to be regular employees of various departments
and agencies of the U.S. Government or members of the U.S. Armed
Forces, according to several sources.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 00:16:27 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:16:27 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
Message-ID: <199711180715.IAA13188@basement.replay.com>



Adam Back writes:

> I am pleased that you are discussing with us crypto politics in
> Japan... we have few contributors from Japan in the past.

Yeah, surprising, isn't it, considering how open and welcoming the
cypherpunks have been to foreigners and minority races...

Actually Adam Back should be nominated for cypherpunk of the year.
Unlike a blowhard do-nothing like Timothy "Chop-chop" May (and now we know
what the C stands for, don't we?), Adam actually accomplishes things.
His 3-line RSA has dramatized the absurdity of the export controls like
nothing else.  He built a working prototype of an eternity server while
everybody else just talked about it.  He's been a leader in the fight to
oppose PGP GAKware.  He has strong political views but is not motivated
by hatred and fear.

Adam doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves, probably because he's
not much of a wordsmith.  Tim May's sophistry is good enough to pull
the wool over most people's eyes.  But look deeper and you'll see that
Adam's heart is pure.  That's worth far more than May's skill at artfully
wrapping his garbage.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 00:16:27 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:16:27 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4577] Re: List Robustness
Message-ID: <199711180741.IAA16369@basement.replay.com>



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> Then there's the mirror at Ft. Meade :-)

  Now that you've told us, are you going to have to kill us?






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 00:20:23 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:20:23 +0800
Subject: trusting untrusted platforms
In-Reply-To: <346DBAD1.C8632971@infomaniak.ch>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117232412.00688de4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 04:08 PM 11/15/1997 +0100, Alexandre Maret wrote:
>Here is the problem: how to make sure that an untrusted
>computer really run the code you ask him to run.

In general, you can't.  Many interesting problems are NP,
so you can quickly tell from the output whether it matches the input,
but many more interesting problems are not, especially in crypto.
Often there's a special form that lets you detect
false positives, but for false negatives you're usually out of luck.
And for complex calculations other than searches, 
such as numerical stuff, you usually lose too.

>Practically, we can take the example of the RC5 contest.
>If I ask an untrusted computer to search for the key in
>a particular sub-keyspace, how can I make sure that this
>machine really looked for the key, and that it doesn't
>just say "the key is not in this block, give me another
>block" just to get higher in the stats...

The common solution, which also covers "this machine started looking
but stopped and didn't tell me", is to assign problem space
to multiple users (and hope they don't collude :-).
Random search is surprisingly effective, and has the
advantage that it doesn't require coordination.
It's sometimes helpful to structure the searches a bit
so you can easily compare results from multiple players.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 00:24:29 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:24:29 +0800
Subject: List Robustness
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117190222.00688de4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 10:26 PM 11/14/1997 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>I do not think that it is entirely impossible either, but the likely
>scenario is that the government may first try to harass us and attempt
>the criminal charges only after some time.
>
>In any case, the present structure of cypherpunks list is entirely
>unacceptable. We have only three working nodes. This is bad since all
>of these nodes reside in the US and can be taken out easily.

Cypherpunks-e at htp.com is in Japan, though I don't know if it only gets feeds
off of ssz or also off algebra and cyberpass.  And the archive's in Singapore.
Also, there are a bunch of Usenet mirrors, mostly local newsgroups.

Just to balance Singapore, it'd be nice to have an archive in Amsterdam :-)
Or in Virtual Tonga, or Niue.   Then there's the mirror at Ft. Meade :-)

At some point, though, it's difficult not to have reinvented Usenet.
Tim reiterates that Usenet really is distributed, robust, and uncensorable.
But the real Usenet has different failure modes - social ones:
> I used to try to copy many of my posts to alt.cypherpunks shortly after it
> was created, right after the the Great February End of Toad.com, but in
> recent months I haven'te bothered (mainly because no interesting
> communication was occurring in the alt.cypherpunks arena).
Usenet is a _great_ place to run Blacknet, because background noise is your friend,
and the uncensorability depends on piggybacking on the firehose.
It's a tougher place to run a cypherpunks list, which has enough problems
with signal-to-noise ratio as a mailing list, where majordomo filters out
the totally non-RTFM-capable users, without being an attractive nuisance for
crossposts from rec.politics.guns or alt.2600.flame.your.mama.
To some extent, running a sub-Usenet, or a robomoderated newsgroup which
kills crossposts from all but a select few groups, can help this.
But sci.crypt.research gets very little signal these days either, though no noise.




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From sbj123456 at aol.com  Tue Nov 18 00:28:34 1997
From: sbj123456 at aol.com (SBJ Enterprises)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:28:34 +0800
Subject: Get Started Right Away And Have A Great Christmas
Message-ID: <18161.235751.90463299 cypherpunks@toad.com>



Dear friend,

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a
look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return
is TREMENDOUS!
When you order you will be given instructions of a conference call 
that will give you technical support, step by step how to e-mail your own
email.
This really works!  

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided
"WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire,
an email extracting and mass mail program:
  http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/


Another more advanced one can be found at:
  http://www.extractor.com/ads.htm

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15
TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making
$50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received
196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN
TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and
error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
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unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
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The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate
in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS:

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.


This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
           should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
           that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
           to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
           4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
           lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
           them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
           opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
           than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
           imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
           the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
           are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
Please, no checks, cash only !
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
SJB Enterprises
640-A Valley View Loop
Honolulu, HI 96818

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
Freedom Investments
PO Box 199	
Wadesville, IN. 47638-0199
________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Katz Investments
6545 Quiet Hours	
Columbia, Md 21045

________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
Aquarian Enterprises
3965 Phelan #105-304
Beaumont,TX 77707

_______________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

Very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.      Get a post office box (preferred).

3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
        your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
        move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.      Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
        receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
        more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as
        soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!


YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!



"I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting
myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than
ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."  
                                                                        -
Sir Isaac Newton








From anon at anon.efga.org  Tue Nov 18 02:30:39 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:30:39 +0800
Subject: Fairy gold
Message-ID: <381fbc9309f2c3a22a848b5337971e48@anon.efga.org>



Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.






From kent at songbird.com  Tue Nov 18 02:37:03 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:37:03 +0800
Subject: Ben slowly learns
In-Reply-To: <MOPAGGPJEBEOAAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <19971118011322.54870@songbird.com>



On Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 08:17:32PM -0700, Benjamin Chad Wienke wrote:
> At 09:09 AM 11/17/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >You quite clearly don't know what you are talking about, little boy. 
> >My Dad got me my first gun when I was around 8, 40 some years ago. 
> By
> >the time I was your emotional age (12) I knew that guns weren't toys.
> 
> Well, you got the edge on me there; I got my first when I was 12, but
> my dad let me shoot his .357 Magnum when I was 7.
> 
> I recall a period of time when some punks were following me around
> because I had ratted on one of their friends. I got tired of it, got a
> B-27 silhouette target, and shot out the X-ring with my Para-Ordnance
> P10.45. I nailed the used target to my front door, and started wearing
> a fanny pack, and it was amazing how the punk sightings diminished
> dramatically. 

Sometimes leaving a bloody dogs head on their doorstep works, or 
putting a few rounds in the side of their car...

> I never even had to draw my gun--all I had to do was
> convince them I carried one and was willing to use it effectively if
> necessary. Of course, if you would rather be shot than live with the
> consequences of shooting someone that is your choice. But saying that
> having a gun wouldn't make a difference is pretty ignorant--it can
> make a HUGE difference IF you are willing to use it--and pay attention
> to your surroundings such that you have the gun in hand before you are
> in the middle of a circle of assholes with drawn weapons.

There are many circumstances that don't involve a circle of assholes
with drawn weapons.  Perhaps you have a job that allows you to carry a
gun; most don't.  Perhaps you drive with your weapon on your lap, and
are always on the lookout for snipers; but I doubt it.  Maybe you have
eyes in the back of your head, and can read people's minds, but I
doubt that, too.  The cold fact is, Ben, if I wanted bad enough to
kill you, you would almost certainly be dead, never knowing it
happened.  That's not magic -- you could do the same to me, and if you
gave 10 minutes thought you would realize this is so. 

All this stuff about always being on guard and being totally aware of
your surroundings is silly macho bullshit.  And even if it wasn't,
it's an braindead empty argument -- if you were always on guard and
totally aware of your surroundings you would never need a gun for
anything, anyway.

And Ben, it's not that I would rather be shot than live with the
consequences of shooting someone.  If that really were the choice I
wouldn't give it a second thought.  But that's almost never really the
choice. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 03:23:56 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:23:56 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711180955.KAA01687@basement.replay.com>



Anybody remember when people still used the term "ObCrypto" in their
posts?  That was back when the list still meant something about crypto
and freedom, before it became dedicated to racial hatred.  I understand
that the catchphrase de rigeur is now "ObJapBashing".






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 03:57:53 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:57:53 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711181035.LAA05189@basement.replay.com>



William H. Geiger III, <whgiii at invweb.net>, writes:

>Exactly how do you equate everything negative that is said against Japan
>as to being racist? I guess if I had said it about Germany then it would
>have been ok?? I bet you are one of those skirt wearing liberals that shed
>tears over nuking Japan as being evil but have no problems with the
>firebombing of Dresdin.

So you are proud of your statement about Japan?  You believe that
President Truman should have dropped additional atomic bombs (if he had
them) on Japan, even _after_ they surrendered?  This would have been in
contravention of every shred of decency and honor.  Such a bloodthirsty
act of revenge would have branded the U.S. as hopelessly barbaric, savage
and inhuman.

Your comments do fit in well with the current tenor of the cypherpunks
list, though.  Barbaric, savage, indecent, dishonorable.  These are the
new codewords of the cypherpunks movement.  The uglier it gets, the more
they like it here.  You do indeed fit right in.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Tue Nov 18 04:17:01 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:17:01 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
Message-ID: <abb1add8bd15a907a1704e6641aa7854@anon.efga.org>



Bill Stewart writes:

> I'm pleased to see PGP Inc. permitting development of freeware,
> but at leased from a first reading of the license, 
> it's a _really_ restrictive definition of "freeware" - 
> not only does the software have to be free, but it can only be used 
> in extremely restrictively non-commercial activities.
> It's far more restrictive than RSAREF (though more precisely defined.)
> Here's an excerpt from the web page at
>         http://www.pgp.com/sdk/sdklicencefree.html
>         For purposes hereof, the term "non-commercial" shall mean that
>         the application 
>         (a) has been distributed or otherwise made available at no charge 
>         (direct or indirect) and 
>         (b) is not used for any commercial purpose, which includes, 
>         but is not limited to, any activity engaged for the purpose 
>         of generating revenues (directly or indirectly). 
>         For example, a commercial purpose includes the use of the 
>         application within a commercial business or facility or 
>         the use of the product to provide a service, or in support 
>         of service, for which you charge. 
>         Commercial purpose also includes use by any government agency
>         or organization. 
>         Examples of non-commercial purposes include use 
>         at home for personal correspondence, 
>         use by students for academic activities, 
>         or use by human rights organizations. 
> 
> First of all, it sounds like it can only be used by students at
> non-government-run universities, but not at Berkeley, and if
> Random MIT Student develops PGPwidget using the toolkit,
> students at U.C.Berkeley can't use it for academic use either,
> except perhaps on their PCs at home (if they live off-campus.)
> (Do any of the UK universities count as non-government-run?)

You consider use by students at U.C.Berkeley to be use by a "government
agency or organization".  I don't think that is what is meant.  They mean
something like the NSA, or Congress, or the military.

It would be better if they explicitly explained how public schools
were to be dealt with.  My guess would be that instructors and staff
members would require a license, but that students could use it for free.
Probably the best thing to do is to send email to PGP and ask them to
issue a clarification.

> But "within a commercial business or facility" is far more 
> restrictive.  
> I use a laptop for my home and work email, and carry it around.
> It sounds like I can't use PGPwidget or PGPsdk for encrypting 
> personal email at lunchtime when my laptop is at the office,
> and perhaps not from a hotel (at least if I'm there on business)?

"Within" is probably meant in the organizational sense, not in terms of
physical inclusion.  The fundamental point is whether revenue generation
is involved.  Personal email does not generate revenue (arguably reading
your personal email at work interferes with generating revenue).

> I probably can't start PGPwidget at home and leave it running
> when I carry the laptop to work.  I probably can't use PGPwidget
> when I'm reading my work email at home, though perhaps it's ok
> to use it on personal mail that someone sent to my work MSExchange,
> assuming it's not a widget that competes with a PGP product.

You can't use it to do your work.  Your company should buy a copy in
that case.  Reading your work email counts as part of doing your work.

Mostly these seem like reasonable definitions of non-commercial use.
But you have identified some gray areas that should be fleshed out.

Xcalibur






From iang at systemics.com  Tue Nov 18 04:43:04 1997
From: iang at systemics.com (Ian Grigg)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:43:04 +0800
Subject: cryptx spam - des-based program.
In-Reply-To: <v0400276eb096754dc58b@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <347182CF.DA81779@systemics.com>



Bill Stewart said:
> I got spammed by someone selling Cryptx, a DES-based encryption program.

Sheez, not only spam, but perverting our good name!  Cryptix is good
strong stuff, they are simply hoping to confuse customers by dropping a
vowel.

-- 
iang                                      systemics.com

FP: 1189 4417 F202 5DBD  5DF3 4FCD 3685 FDDE on pgp.com






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 04:47:04 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:47:04 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711180715.IAA13188@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711181238.HAA04276@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711180715.IAA13188 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/18/97 
   at 08:15 AM, Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> said:

>Adam Back writes:

>> I am pleased that you are discussing with us crypto politics in
>> Japan... we have few contributors from Japan in the past.

>Yeah, surprising, isn't it, considering how open and welcoming the
>cypherpunks have been to foreigners and minority races...

>Actually Adam Back should be nominated for cypherpunk of the year. Unlike
>a blowhard do-nothing like Timothy "Chop-chop" May (and now we know what
>the C stands for, don't we?), Adam actually accomplishes things. His
>3-line RSA has dramatized the absurdity of the export controls like
>nothing else.  He built a working prototype of an eternity server while
>everybody else just talked about it.  He's been a leader in the fight to
>oppose PGP GAKware.  He has strong political views but is not motivated
>by hatred and fear.

>Adam doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves, probably because he's
>not much of a wordsmith.  Tim May's sophistry is good enough to pull the
>wool over most people's eyes.  But look deeper and you'll see that Adam's
>heart is pure.  That's worth far more than May's skill at artfully
>wrapping his garbage.

So when is the marriage planed??

Are you and Adam registered at Harrod's so I can send a gift?


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNHGMA49Co1n+aLhhAQGmqwP/bBf0Hf89+rWaPIWW9Y/zhC/xgaITpJv5
+sGDK7d/4aBup+nLHpA7P7TFkhGIO1QA71bK8RcrIPbD2HEYt9TV6E3B5joDRady
ZDluYBw5ymhuiwXd/aHf9NTcP5NFUm0ThSyh5mRNlzkzbMyCyT7oQUYWRMbvm6tX
7Q1L5PIAmYo=
=0hkK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 04:49:27 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:49:27 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711180955.KAA01687@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711181241.HAA04320@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711180955.KAA01687 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/18/97 
   at 10:55 AM, Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> said:

>Anybody remember when people still used the term "ObCrypto" in their
>posts?  That was back when the list still meant something about crypto
>and freedom, before it became dedicated to racial hatred.  I understand
>that the catchphrase de rigeur is now "ObJapBashing".

How about:

ObPoliticalCorrectness
ObBleadingHartLiberal
ObPCHistoricalRevisionist
ObThereShouldBeALaw


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNHGMt49Co1n+aLhhAQEAkAP+P0fRbVsdA0VRM3paiq0jAxN17BztfFeP
FdyrPlwNMCw5yHG5WV1BVEgHNcNYzrl1mNOrLBRS8V07Uzcb5ppXzQYqXFCPAtKo
Aj899GjDvM56aUT28/Jy9JGExTCK3YenNgHO/UYCw/w49sINllrmyVG2eH+K1B//
LD8hJsIkb9g=
=t0Vu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jk at stallion.ee  Tue Nov 18 04:51:47 1997
From: jk at stallion.ee (Jyri Kaljundi)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:51:47 +0800
Subject: OECD on E-Commerce Tax
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971118044218.00c09c00@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118143718.21511H-100000@nebula>



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:

> We offer an HTML version of OECD's paper:
> 
>    "Electronic Commerce: The Challenges to Tax Authorities 
>    and Taxpayers"

There were some reports released lately by the International Chamber of
Commerce (http://www.iccwbo.org/) also. These were in connection with
World Business Agenda for Electronic Commerce conference some days ago in
Paris. Most of the materials seemed to be there on the web.

Jyri Kaljundi
jk at stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/






From jk at stallion.ee  Tue Nov 18 04:58:06 1997
From: jk at stallion.ee (Jyri Kaljundi)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:58:06 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118144118.21511I-100000@nebula>




How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest money
into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
Europe? 

Since Sun bought the Russian Elvis+ company it seems to be Ok, just wanted
to check if there are any other opinions. Does anyone know of any other
non-US companies that have received US investments, or venture capital or
whatever?

Jyri Kaljundi
jk at stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 04:58:32 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:58:32 +0800
Subject: obPoliticalIncorrect
Message-ID: <199711181252.HAA04463@users.invweb.net>



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BTW, did you hear about the blonde who walked into a bar with a headset
on? The bartender said, "Take them off, you can't wear those in here." She
replied that she couldn't whereupon the bartender ripped them off her. She
collapsed immediately and was dead by the time the Rescue Squad arrived.
This happened three days in a row with different blonds. Finally, the
bartender picked up the headphones and listened. He heard "Breathe In.
Breathe Out. Breathe IN. Breath Out."


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov 18 05:26:01 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:26:01 +0800
Subject: ICC on E-Commerce
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971118131310.00c4ca10@pop.pipeline.com>



Jyri Kaljundi wrote:

>There were some reports released lately by the International Chamber of
>Commerce (http://www.iccwbo.org/) also. These were in connection with
>World Business Agenda for Electronic Commerce conference some days ago in
>Paris. Most of the materials seemed to be there on the web.

Yes, and good reports they are. We've mirrored one of them:

   "Guide to International Digitally Ensured Commerce":

   http://jya.com/guidec2.htm  (130K)






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 05:27:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:27:38 +0800
Subject: Overcoming prejudice
Message-ID: <199711181305.OAA21511@basement.replay.com>



Former Klan hotbed elects first black mayor

November 16, 1997

STONE MOUNTAIN, Georgia (AP) -- By the light of a blazing cross, the Ku
Klux Klan proclaimed its 20th century rebirth on the granite mountain
that gives the town its name. For decades, white-hooded Klansmen flocked
here for annual gatherings, and Confederate heroes are sculpted into
the side of the mountain.

Today, the mayor's office once held by an imperial wizard of the Klan
is about to be filled by a black man, who also lives in the former KKK
leader's house.

Elected with biracial support, Chuck Burris is more concerned about
getting new sidewalks and more police than with Stone Mountain's old
image of racial division.

Burris, a city councilman, defeated a six-year incumbent in the November
4 election and will lead a black majority City Council in January.

Campaign didn't focus on race
<snip>
'We wanted the best-qualified candidate'
<snip>
New mayor lives in house that belonged to Klan wizard

---

>From cnn.com.
If the birthplace of the KKK can rise above its racial prejudice, is it
too much to ask the same of ourselves?






From news at phonemenow.com  Tue Nov 18 05:30:02 1997
From: news at phonemenow.com (news at phonemenow.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:30:02 +0800
Subject: A phone jack for your web site
Message-ID: <>



Dear cypherpunks at toad.com,

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You may try out our service for FREE by visiting http://www.phonemenow.com.

http://www.phonemenow.com
news at phonemenow.com






From Afriend at good-buddy-911.com  Tue Nov 18 21:36:28 1997
From: Afriend at good-buddy-911.com (Afriend at good-buddy-911.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:36:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Best Internet Phone!! Read all about it.......
Message-ID: <99556025_93313642>



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From cb_brown at mail.jax.bellsouth.net  Tue Nov 18 21:56:14 1997
From: cb_brown at mail.jax.bellsouth.net (cb_brown at mail.jax.bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:56:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Trying To Reach You !!
Message-ID: <199711190555.AAA19085@mail.jax.bellsouth.net>


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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Nov 18 06:02:26 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:02:26 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711180715.IAA13188@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Xc8cge17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> writes:
> Adam doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves,

Adam Back gets LOTS of respect from me.  He's exremely kewl.

Since I obviously have a little more time right now than usual, I
wrote a prototype "Stalingrad" exploit last weekend (for Winsock -
a Unix version shouldn't be too far away).  Anyone wants to test it?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 06:03:41 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:03:41 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118144118.21511I-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <199711181351.IAA05510@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118144118.21511I-100000 at nebula>, on 11/18/97 
   at 02:44 PM, Jyri Kaljundi <jk at stallion.ee> said:

>How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
>companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest
>money into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
>Europe? 

>Since Sun bought the Russian Elvis+ company it seems to be Ok, just
>wanted to check if there are any other opinions. Does anyone know of any
>other non-US companies that have received US investments, or venture
>capital or whatever?

AFAIK there is no restrictions on US citizens investing in foreign
companies. The only restrictions that I know of deal with the exchange of
crypto technical information (IE a US company can not buy into a foreign
company and then ship their crypto through them.) All crypto sales done by
the foreign company must be developed independently of the US company.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 06:04:49 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:04:49 +0800
Subject: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711181358.HAA05198@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nerthus wrote:
>>It makes nice rhetoric, but this is simply not true, you know.  Most
>>people correctly evaluate that you have no chance for freedom at all
>>if you commit suicide, whereas a slave *does* have a chance.
>
>Assuming he recognizes that he *is* a slave.  Most people are
>oblivious to this fact.

>>(By "irrational" here I am referring to behaviour clearly contrary
>>to your own survival.)
>
>'Tis true.  War is a perfect example of what happens when too many
>people act irrationally.
>
>I'm interested in avoiding war without becoming a slave in the
>process.  Anyone else?

Sounds like a good deal.

However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and
the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is
the elimination of freedom and privacy.

It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first
become enslaved.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 06:05:24 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:05:24 +0800
Subject: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <199711181358.HAA05228@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nerthus wrote:
>War is often used to justify the existence of government.  If
>politicians can convince the people that they have an enemy that must
>be destroyed, the people willingly give their lives and livelihood to
>the government to fight this assumed enemy.  War feeds the expansion
>of a government's power over its citizens.  After the war has ended,
>the government maintains this newfound power.

Governmentally inclined organizations stir up violence and trouble all
the time to strengthen their positions.  I would make a more extreme
statement and say that the source of most wars are governments.  The
counter example would be a war in which a government was dragged
unwillingly to the battlefield by its people.  Can anybody think of a
single counter example?  I cannot, but there might be one or two.

>Interestingly, the 20th century, which has been the bloodiest in
>recorded history, has also been the century of failed experiments in
>large-scale government.  The former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia are
>clear examples of what happens when different groups of people (who
>would rather not be associated) are forced to live together at the
>point of a gun.  The disolution of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia,
>and the subsequent violence and unrest clearly illustrate the results
>of forced association.

How much of this violence arises spontaneously and how much of it is
instigated by politicians?  I haven't studied the dissolution of
Yugoslavia, but it seems likely that the new governments which were
formed strengthened their somewhat weak positions through the
instigation of violence.  The post-Yugoslav governments probably
cooperated in creating hatreds and division to lock in their rule.

This can be hard to study because usually we don't have access to the
people doing this, their files, or their communications.

There are instructive examples, however.  On Christmas Day, 1914, the
men in the trenches in France stopped fighting and left their trenches
to celebrate the day together.  Officers on both sides worked very
hard to make sure nothing so terrible would ever happen again!

It's hard to understand what terrible thing would have occurred if
World War I were simply called off.

>We must remember that people are reluctant -- and for good reason --
>to go to war.  Common sense prevails, though it may not be exercised
>all that often.  War can be avoided if the truth of the situation is
>revealed to the populace: the spotlight shone on the puppetmasters.

Preventing war entirely might be hard.  But, we can certainly create
tools and customs which make it possible for many people to evade
participation in a war.  For instance, widely available highly liquid
assets means that it is possible to be somewhat independent of a
particular nation.  This means that spending a few years outside a
warring nation is far more practical.  If things settle down, you can
go back home.  If not, stay away!

A good real life example is the Jewish people living in Germany.  They
were not allowed to take their assets with them.  If you were worth,
say, $500,000 and your choice was to lose it all or stay in the
country, you might persuade yourself that things had already hit
bottom and if you just stuck it out, you wouldn't lose your life or
your fortune.  This is a bad decision to have to make.

If we think of human beings as points in a graph and their
relationships as the edges we can create a nifty model of the world of
the future.  Right now, nations are sets of people whose relationships
are almost entirely confined to the set.  The elites of nations have
some contact with each other, but for the most part nations are
disjoint sets.

What the Net and cypherpunkly tools create is a world in which there
are not easily identified disjoint sets because any particular net of
relationships that a person has tends to overlap the relationship nets
of other people who have a dissimilar set of relationships.

This is a more reliable and robust world to live in because there is a
great deal of redundancy.  That is, the elites of two countries cannot
conspire to use their respective sets of serfs as cannon fodder in
some ill advised adventure.  It's hard to get excited about a war run
by people who are not your friends against people who happen to live
in another part of the world but with whom you have a relationship.

You are entirely right in your observation that the governments of the
world work hard at keeping the sets of people disjoint from each other
without appearing to do so.  My favorite example is the outrageous
taxes imposed on cross border communications.

>At the same time, clear solutions to the problems that have
>accumulated due to blind faith in an unworkable system have to be
>presented and implemented.  The transition will not be easy.

Personally, I like the approach of finding easy ways to do things.  I
don't think the nature of the situation requires an all or nothing
approach.  Let's say crypto is completely outlawed in the United
States and the phones are all tapped.  It still won't be possible to
suppress an underground press since the reproduction costs are so low.
In the past people have managed to publish underground newspapers
under extremely harsh conditions.  Nowadays it's as hard as copying a
diskette.

I believe that the things we do to move in a forward direction are
additive, just like money.  This goes for techniques we develop as
well as people who are involved in our projects.

We should design our systems so that they do not rely on the goodwill
of the masses.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 06:05:56 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:05:56 +0800
Subject: Violence and depravity
Message-ID: <199711181358.HAA05206@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody at replay.com> wrote:
>> Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the
>> right thing.  Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken
>> eggs and all that.
>
>This speaks for itself.  Only an utterly depraved, sick, and vicious
>individual could support the killings in Oklahoma City.  This is the
>man who many would say is the most respected on the list.

I suppose it could be true that after consideration, only a morally
bad or evil person would view positively the Oklahoma City bombing.
However, the discussion is valuable and it is a productive one in
which to engage.  The morality of war is an exceptionally important
question to resolve.

What is interesting about Timothy McVeigh's world view is how
astonishingly similar it is to the view of most people in the
organizations he is attacking or, indeed, the view of most people in
American society or even the world.  In general, the massacre of
innocents is considered "depraved" when the acts are committed by
those far from the levers of power.  The USG was exposed to some
criticism in the Gulf War, but much less than would be proportional to
the number of innocents who died.  For the most part, the people who
die in modern war are non-combatants.

McVeigh apparently found it to be acceptable to kill, for the most
part, a bunch of office workers to get at his actual target the ATF
offices on the top floor of the building.  (I have no idea whether he
knew of the day care center and whether this would have affected his
decisions.)  Generally, when a military mind is confronted with a
shield of innocents, the innocents won't last long.

Once this reasoning is accepted, and it is widely, the real question
is whether the war is justified.  After seeing the horrifying picture
of the body of an 8 year old girl who was gassed and then burned at
Waco, it's difficult to dismiss war as a moral and just response.  For
those who have not seen this picture, the poor child's arms and legs
were horribly twisted into unnatural positions as a consequence of
cyanide poisoning which causes muscles to violently contract.  The
muscles in the back and on the back of the legs are stronger than the
other muscles.  In executions, the contractions can be so violent as
to break bones.

Gassing is particularly hard on children as they typically will not
have closely fitting gas masks.  (Children come in all sizes, but the
available gas masks may often do not.)

While some aspects of what happened at Waco are debatable, there is no
question that representatives of the United States government
consciously decided to gas the people in the house.  This was not a
mistake made in a time critical situation.  It was carefully planned.

It is my sense that we must not allow these sorts of acts to occur in
the future.  I feel quite strongly about this.

"The System" failed to prevent the murders and it failed to prosecute
even a single Federal official for the crimes committed.  Crimes which
can certainly be compared to "crimes against humanity".  Little seems
to be publicly known of the responsibility of the various levels of
the chain of command.  We do know that there was a great deal of
communication with the highest levels of the United States government.
William Jefferson Clinton and Janet Reno may not be guilty of
premeditated murder.  But, a series of fair trials would have cleared
up this question.  Instead, some of the surviving victims were tried.

Given that the government itself committed the atrocities and the
mechanisms to discourage future atrocities through public condemnation
and punishment were not invoked, it is clear that the solution will
not come from "within the system."

McVeigh apparently decided that the proper response was a war on the
United States government with the attendant loss of innocents.  This
decision expresses a moral code indistinguishable from that of most
officials in the government itself.  McVeigh even implied that his
government is his "great teacher"!  In my view, this is an error.
Surely we can choose better moral teachers than the United States
government!

Returning to Tim May's comment that he was feeling sympathetic with
Tim McVeigh's decisions, it seems to me that it is understandable why
such a thought would cross the mind of a person who is not morally bad
or evil.  However, it may be that after thought and discussion that a
person with sound morals and good intentions may also decide that
McVeigh's actions should not be emulated.  The important word here is
"discussion".  The interesting property of discussion is that one does
not always know at the beginning what one will believe at the end.
That's why they are worth having.  That's why it is not "utterly
depraved, sick, and vicious" for somebody to discuss an idea, even one
with which we do not agree.

Most people are not pacifists.  Brian Riley related an experience
he had in Vietnam in which somebody came running out of the bushes
with a bayoneted SKS rifle.  It would be hard to find anybody who
wouldn't do the obvious thing in this situation.

That said, I do not believe that McVeigh did the right thing.  Few of
his victims can be said to be responsible for the actions taken at
Waco.  And the problem with the use of violence is that it is hard to
control and the consequences of the act are often hard to predict.
Violence is often dangerous to the user.  Those participating in the
use of organized violence seldom have much choice in the targets,
type, or quantity of the violence employed.

Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time, money,
and energy.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 06:06:33 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:06:33 +0800
Subject: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <199711181358.HAA05201@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nerthus wrote:
>War is often used to justify the existence of government.  If
>politicians can convince the people that they have an enemy that must
>be destroyed, the people willingly give their lives and livelihood to
>the government to fight this assumed enemy.  War feeds the expansion
>of a government's power over its citizens.  After the war has ended,
>the government maintains this newfound power.

Governmentally inclined organizations stir up violence and trouble all
the time to strengthen their positions.  I would make a more extreme
statement and say that the source of most wars are governments.  The
counter example would be a war in which a government was dragged
unwillingly to the battlefield by its people.  Can anybody think of a
single counter example?  I cannot, but there might be one or two.

>Interestingly, the 20th century, which has been the bloodiest in
>recorded history, has also been the century of failed experiments in
>large-scale government.  The former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia are
>clear examples of what happens when different groups of people (who
>would rather not be associated) are forced to live together at the
>point of a gun.  The disolution of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia,
>and the subsequent violence and unrest clearly illustrate the results
>of forced association.

How much of this violence arises spontaneously and how much of it is
instigated by politicians?  I haven't studied the dissolution of
Yugoslavia, but it seems likely that the new governments which were
formed strengthened their somewhat weak positions through the
instigation of violence.  The post-Yugoslav governments probably
cooperated in creating hatreds and division to lock in their rule.

This can be hard to study because usually we don't have access to the
people doing this, their files, or their communications.

There are instructive examples, however.  On Christmas Day, 1914, the
men in the trenches in France stopped fighting and left their trenches
to celebrate the day together.  Officers on both sides worked very
hard to make sure nothing so terrible would ever happen again!

It's hard to understand what terrible thing would have occurred if
World War I were simply called off.

>We must remember that people are reluctant -- and for good reason --
>to go to war.  Common sense prevails, though it may not be exercised
>all that often.  War can be avoided if the truth of the situation is
>revealed to the populace: the spotlight shone on the puppetmasters.

Preventing war entirely might be hard.  But, we can certainly create
tools and customs which make it possible for many people to evade
participation in a war.  For instance, widely available highly liquid
assets means that it is possible to be somewhat independent of a
particular nation.  This means that spending a few years outside a
warring nation is far more practical.  If things settle down, you can
go back home.  If not, stay away!

A good real life example is the Jewish people living in Germany.  They
were not allowed to take their assets with them.  If you were worth,
say, $500,000 and your choice was to lose it all or stay in the
country, you might persuade yourself that things had already hit
bottom and if you just stuck it out, you wouldn't lose your life or
your fortune.  This is a bad decision to have to make.

If we think of human beings as points in a graph and their
relationships as the edges we can create a nifty model of the world of
the future.  Right now, nations are sets of people whose relationships
are almost entirely confined to the set.  The elites of nations have
some contact with each other, but for the most part nations are
disjoint sets.

What the Net and cypherpunkly tools create is a world in which there
are not easily identified disjoint sets because any particular net of
relationships that a person has tends to overlap the relationship nets
of other people who have a dissimilar set of relationships.

This is a more reliable and robust world to live in because there is a
great deal of redundancy.  That is, the elites of two countries cannot
conspire to use their respective sets of serfs as cannon fodder in
some ill advised adventure.  It's hard to get excited about a war run
by people who are not your friends against people who happen to live
in another part of the world but with whom you have a relationship.

You are entirely right in your observation that the governments of the
world work hard at keeping the sets of people disjoint from each other
without appearing to do so.  My favorite example is the outrageous
taxes imposed on cross border communications.

>At the same time, clear solutions to the problems that have
>accumulated due to blind faith in an unworkable system have to be
>presented and implemented.  The transition will not be easy.

Personally, I like the approach of finding easy ways to do things.  I
don't think the nature of the situation requires an all or nothing
approach.  Let's say crypto is completely outlawed in the United
States and the phones are all tapped.  It still won't be possible to
suppress an underground press since the reproduction costs are so low.
In the past people have managed to publish underground newspapers
under extremely harsh conditions.  Nowadays it's as hard as copying a
diskette.

I believe that the things we do to move in a forward direction are
additive, just like money.  This goes for techniques we develop as
well as people who are involved in our projects.

We should design our systems so that they do not rely on the goodwill
of the masses.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 06:06:59 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:06:59 +0800
Subject: For a Dignified and Effective Demonstration
Message-ID: <199711181359.HAA05354@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- From an anonymous leaflet, London, early 1980s.


	     FOR A DIGNIFIED AND EFFECTIVE DEMONSTRATION

    Brought to you by the ALL-LONDON UNITED ALLIANCE OF SOCIALIST
CAUCUSES to whom teh following are signatories: G.L.C., London Labour
Party, T.U.C., S.W.P., W.R.P., I.M.G., C.N.D., Ecology Party, Y.C.L.,
and B.F.

We welcome everyone to today's demonstration, which we hope will be
amongst the biggest London has seen for many years.  We are confident
that the vast majority of you will keep intact your dignity.  A
disciplined rally is essential if we are to avoid discrediting
ourselves in the eyes of the public and losing the approval of the
police.  We want to give the media no reason to condemn our campaign
by pointing to any over-imaginative acts.  To this end, we call on
everyone to obey the dictates of the stewards who will be found
alongside the police.  They will be acting in your interests.  They
are sensible people - please be sensible with them.  Beware of
troublemakers - some may be in the crowd with you.  If you see any do
not hesitate to summon stewards or the police, who, we must remember,
are our brothers in work.  Comrades!  Even in a socialist society we
shall still need Specialists-In-Order to combat hooligans and
deviants.  While it's true that nowadays the police are occasionally
over-zealous in their protection of privilege, property, and the
violence of the world market, the best way of dealing with this is by
demanding public accountability through elected local government or
some other representation of submissive community.  In the meantime we
should recognize that they will only listen to our complaints if we
conduct ourselves in the correct manner.

			 RESPECT FOR THE DEAD

    Our tactics are those to which the greatest number can conform
with the least difficulty.  They require no more than your presence
and a minimum of participation.  All that we ask is that you recreate
the conditions of your work.  Remember!  It's numbers that count; the
boredom you feel is also imposed by the demo on everyone else.  Each
demonstrator must be equivalent to and replaceable by any other.  Just
like our old friend, the commodity.  Please bear in mind that love and
marriage go together like a horse and carriage, OK?

    We therefore ask you to comply with the following simple rules:

1. Exactly one hundred to a line, each rank to be one yard clear of
   the line in front.  No lounging please.
2. Wait for the initiative of the official loud-speakers before
   repeating the correct slogans, always recognisable by their format.
   For example: "X - IN! . . . Y - OUT!" or "WHAT DO WE WANT? -
   SOMETHING! . . . WHEN DO WE WANT IT? - WHENEVER YOU GET AROUND TO
   GIVING IT TO US!".  Kindly check that all Extra-Parliamentary
   slogans recognize the ultimate sovereignty of Parliament.  If you
   have any doubts, consult our easy-to-read list of DEMONSTRATION
   SLOGANS DO'S & DON'TS: -

CHANT                                     DO NOT CHANT
Cheap Fares Now!             NOT          Helicopters on Demand!
Victory to Fares Fight!      NOT          Total Contestation!
No Return to the 30's!       NOT          No Adventure for the '80s!
Slogans are jolly good fun!  NOT          Bollocks to Demands of our Enemies!
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa!             NOT          Riot for Romance!

3. The left-hand side of the rally has been designated a 'No Smoking'
   area.  Demonstrators are respectfully asked to comply with this
   request.
4. If you see any impatient extremists please inform us immediately.
   They are easily distinguishable by the following kinds of sectarian
   individualism:
   a) Inventing unofficial slogans such as "Kenny is a Cop!", "Neither
   Left, Right, nor Centre!"  or "Revolution is the Festival of the
   Depressed!" or some other aggressive utopian rubbish.
   b) Departing from the prescribed site of the demo for the purpose
   of indulging in manual waltzes through shop windows and the wilful
   destruction of saleable goods.  Take care to note that Piccadilly,
   offering gold-drenched shops and fine vistas of the commodity, is a
   holiday of sheer temptation you should avoid.
   c) Making unauthorised alterations to luxury cars.
   d) Using banner poles in an extravagantly exhuberant manner.
   e) Smoking excessively long cigarettes or 'joints'.
   f) Drinking looted alcohol.

			 COORDINATED FEROCITY

   g) Suggesting that demonstrators should band together in groups of
   fifty or more in order to spread disruption of traffic as widely as
   possible.  For example, by the continuous use of zebra crossings,
   standing around chatting in the middle of the road or arranging
   obstacles to prevent the free flow of carbon monoxide, lead, cop
   cars, and tension-producing noises through our streets.
   h) Any clever, erotic, or playful expression of individual or group
   initiative.

			  CLOCKWORK FUTILITY

5. During the rally you are urged to clap your favourite speakers.
   Please confine your enthusiasm to 15 secs per point made in the
   middle of a pseech and a maximum of 30 secs at the end of one.
   Please do not interrupt with shouts of "BORING"!
6. Always remember to smile at the press cameras and adopt a suitably
   militant stance even when you feel pissed off with the whole
   business.
7. If you are uncertain whether a particular mode of behaviour is
   orderly or not, just do what everybody else is doing.  Should any
   unconventional urges remain do not hesitate to discuss them with
   one of our stewards.  They will be only too pleased to refer you to
   the appropriate specialist, whether G.P. or S.W.P.
8. At the end of the demo please do not dawdle.  Failure to make your
   way home quickly could result in you missing the sight of yourself
   on TV.

This leaflet is brought to you courtesy of the ALL-LONDON UNITED
ALLIANCE OF SOCIALIST CAUCUSES.

The following have refused to sign this leaflet:

The vandals of St. Saviours Primary School who refused to accept their
discipline quietly and who wrecked their compuslory prison, causing a
sobbing teacher to lament "These youngsters have hardly left their
cradles, but they are threatening to take over the school."

The rioters at Bydgoszcz Prison in Poland who fought Communist Party
hacks, State Police, and Solidarity union officials, all allied in
defence of the walls of the prison against the townspeople who were
helping prisoners escape.

The ASLEF traindrivers who avoid wage slavery as much as possible,
preferring dancing and drinking to sacrificing themslves to a job
which mainly involves transporting other slaves so that they may
perpetuate the futility of it all.

The black and white joyriding youth of Clapham who used CB radios for
the fun of organising efficient looting.

The Deptford New Cross Marchers of a year ago who in anger and
audacity broke away from the march in order to re-distribute weatlh in
the Bond Street area.

The Toxteth and Southall youths who shouted down Left Labour activists
patronising enough to characterize the riots as "understandable but
inexcusable".

The truckdrivers of Cleveland, USA, who took over the local
distribution of food, medicine, and other necessities, by themselves
and without mediation, for over 3 weeks.

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From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 06:24:38 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:24:38 +0800
Subject: Robust Debate
Message-ID: <199711181359.HAA05388@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Joichi Ito wrote:
>> This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently
>> too sensitive to engage in robust debate.
>
>This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a
>robust debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate
>will probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for
>me no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take
>this risk.

1. IMO, robust debate is the source of new ideas.  New and worthwhile
ideas are often shocking.  For example, the music by Bach, Beethoven,
the Beatles, and even the Sex Pistols were all shocking in their time.

2. Attacks on your posts only lower your reputation if the attacks
have substance.  Tim May has been attacked more than anybody else on
the list for years.  His reputation capital is doing just fine.

3. Use of remailers simplifies True Name reputation management.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 06:41:42 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:41:42 +0800
Subject: The Judge On War
Message-ID: <199711181359.HAA05387@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac
McCarthy

  On a rise at the western edge of the playa they passed a crude
wooden cross where Maricopas had crucified an Apache.  The mummied
corpse hung from the crosstree with its mouth gaped in a raw hole, a
thing of leather and bone scoured by the pumice winds off the lake and
the pale tree of the ribs showing through the scraps of hide that hung
from the breast.  They rode on.  The horses trudged sullenly the alien
ground and the round earth rolled beneath them silently milling the
greater void wherein they were contained.  In the neuter austerity of
that terrain all phenomena were bequeathed a strange equality and no
one thing nor spider nor stone nor blade of grass could put forth
claim to precedence.  The very clarity of these articles belied their
familiarity, for the eye predicates the whole on some feature or part
and here was nothing more luminous than another and nothing more
enshadowed and in the optical democracy of such landscapes all
preference is made whimsical and a man and a rock become endowed with
unguessed kinships.
  They grew gaunted and lank under the white suns of those days and
their hollow burnedout eyes were like those of noctambulants surprised
by day.  Crouched under their hats they seemed fugitives on some
grander scale, like beings for whom the sun hungered.  Even the judge
grew silent and speculative.  He'd spoke of purging oneself of those
things that lay claim to a man but that body receiving his remarks
counted themselves well done with any claims at all.  They rode on and
the wind drove the fine gray dust before them and they rode an army of
graybeards, gray men, gray horses.  The mountains to the north lay
sunwise in corrugated folds and the days were cool and the nights were
cold and they sat about the fire each in his round of darkness in that
round of dark while the idiot watched from his cage at the edge of the
light.  The judge cracked with the back of an axe the shinbone of an
antelope and the hot marrow dripped smoking on the stones.  They
watched him.  The subject was war.
  The good book says that he that lives by the sword shall perish by
the sword, said the black.
  The judge smiled, his face shining with grease.  What right man
would have it any other way? he said.
  The good book does indeed count war an evil, said Irving.  Yet
there's many a bloody tale of war inside it.
  It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge.  War
endures.  As well ask men what they think of stone.  War was always
here.  Before man was, war waited for him.  The ultimate trade
awaiting its ultimate practitioner.  That is the way it was and will
be.  That way and not some other way.
  He turned to Brown, from whom he'd heard some whispered slur or
demurrer.  Ah Davy, he said.  It's your own trade we honor here.  Why
not rather take a small bow.  Let each acknowledge each.
  My trade?
  Certainly.
  What is my trade?
  War.  War is your trade.  Is it not?
  And it aint yours?
  Mine too.  Very much so.
  What about all them notebooks and bones and stuff?
  All other trades are contained in that of war.
  Is that why war endures?
  No.  It endures because young men love it and old men love it in
them.  Those that fought, those that did not.
  That's your notion.
  The judge smiled.  Men are born for games.  Nothing else.  Every
child knows that play is nobler than work.  He knows too that the
worth or merit of a game is not inherent in the game itself but rather
in the value of that which is put at hazard.  Games of chance require
a wager to have meaning at all.  Games of sport involve the skill and
strength of the opponents and the humiliation of defeat and the pride
of victory are in themselves sufficient stake because they inhere in
the worth of the principals and define them.  But trial of chance or
trial of worth all games aspire to the condition of war for here that
which is wagered swallows up game, player, all.
  Suppose two men at cards with nothing to wager save their lives.
Who has not heard such a tale?  A turn of the card.  The whole
universe for such a player has labored clanking to this moment which
will tell if he is to die at that man's hand or that man at his.  What
more certain validation of a man's worth could there be?  This
enhancement of the game to its ultimate state admits no argument
concerning the notion of fate.  The selection of one man over another
is a preference absolute and irrevocable and it is a dull man indeed
who could reckon so profound a decision without agency or significance
either one.  In such games as have for their stake the annihilation of
the defeated the decisions are quite clear.  This man holding this
particular arrangement of cards in his hand is thereby removed from
existence.  This is the nature of war, whose stake is at once a game
and the authority and the justification.  Seen so, war is the truest
form of divination.  It is the testing of one's will and the will of
another within that larger will which because it binds them is
therefore forced to select.  War is the ultimate game because war is
at last forcing of the unity of existence.  War is god.
  Brown studied the judge.  You're crazy Holden.  Crazy at last.
  The judge smiled.
  Might does not make right, said Irving.  The man that wins in some
combat is not vindicated morally.
  Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of
the powerful in favor of the weak.  Historical law subverts it at
every turn.  A moral view can never be proven right or wrong by any
ultimate test.  A man falling dead in a duel is not thought thereby to
be proven in error as to his views.  His very involvement in such a
trial gives evidence of a new and broader view.  The willingness of
the principals to forgo further argument as the triviality which it in
fact is and to petition directly the chambers of the historical
absolute clearly indicates of how little moment are the opinions and
of what great moment the divergences thereof.  For the argument is
indeed trivial, but not so the separate wills thereby made manifest.
Man's vanity may well approach the infinite in capacity but his
knowledge remains imperfect and howevermuch he comes to value his
judgements ultimately he must submit them before a higher court.  Here
there can be no special pleading.  Here are considerations of equity
and rectitude and moral right rendered void and without warrant and
here are the views of the litigants despised.  Decisions of life and
death, of what shall be and what shall not, beggar all question of
right.  In elections of these magnitudes are all lesser ones subsumed,
moral, spiritual, natural.
  The judge searched out the circle for disputants.  But what says the
priest? he said.
  Tobin looked up.  The priest does not say.
  The priest does not say, said the judge.  Nihil dicit.  But the
priest has said.  For the priest has put by the robes of his craft and
taken up the tools of that higher calling which all men honor.  The
priest also would be no godserver but a god himself.
  Tobin shook his head.  You've a blasphemous tongue, Holden.  And in
truth I was never a priest but only a novitiate to the order.
  Journeyman priest or apprentice priest, said the judge.  Men of god
and men of war have strange affinities.
  I'll not secondsay you in your notions, said Tobin.  Dont ask it.
  Ah Priest, said the judge.  What could I ask of you that you've not
already given?

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From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov 18 06:48:40 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:48:40 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <UwnQ4MdR7Gmffv8HRfEj/A==@bureau42.ml.org>



Tim May will fuck anything that moves, but he'd 
rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.

           /\
        __/__\__
         | 00 |  Tim May
        |:  \ :|
         | \_/|
          \__/






From anon at anon.efga.org  Tue Nov 18 06:49:24 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:49:24 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <137782560eda24a2e39eb7a805f94497@anon.efga.org>



If anyone doubts Gary Burnore's vindictive nature and his disregard for the
privacy of others, read this message from him where he dug up an old tax
lien filed against one of his critics and broadcast it worldwide on Usenet in 
order to embarass him and intimidate him into silence about Gary Burnore and
his abusive tactics:

--- BEGIN INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

Subject: Re: Monkey-boys position
From: gburnore at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:01:14 GMT 
Message-ID: <gburnoreE5Iqy2.H8C at netcom.com>
Organization: the home office in Wazoo, NE
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
References: <gburnoreE51xvo.2zK at netcom.com>
            <5doim6$32q$1 at monkeys.com> <twficE5G4HL.Fp9 at netcom.com>
            <wotanE5Gu0t.8Hv at netcom.com> <5drvl3$bvr$1 at monkeys.com>
 
Ronald F. Guilmette (rfg at monkeys.com) wrote:
{ In article <wotanE5Gu0t.8Hv at netcom.com>,  <Wotan> wrote:
{ >In article <twficE5G4HL.Fp9 at netcom.com>,
{ >Ty Fairchild <twfic at netcom.com> wrote while drinking:
{ >
{ >>Fortunately this thread will not be extended by any further follow from
{ >>monkeyboy.  His public pronouncement states his position.
{ >          
{ >Y'all mean bent over a post spreading his ass cheeks and yelling "Fuck
{ >me" to any passing entity?
 
{ Atta boy Wotan, my little BaBaBasicks bean brain.  Jump in again any time.
 
What say each time you slam DataBasix for no reason, we post some
publicly available information about monkeys.com.  HEre's the first try:
 
 
+ 
+Filing Number:          90226822 
+Document Type:      STATE TAX
+Filing Date:               04/30/90
+Amount:                    $157,705
+Debtor:                      GUILMETTE, RONALD F, <ssn deleted>
+                                   550 PAULARINO AV, COSTA MESA, CA
+Court/County:           ORANGE REC, ORANGE, CA
+Certificate:                90114005621 
+Tax Authority:           FRANCHISE TAX BOARD
+Release Number:     90431912
+Release Date:          08/15/90
+
+Filing Number:          336573L
+Document Type:      STATE TAX
+Filing Date:               04/27/90
+Amount:                    $157,705
+Debtor:                      GUILMETTE, RONALD F, <ssn deleted>
+                                   550 PAULARINO AV, COSTA MESA, CA
+Court/County:           SANTA CLARA REC, SANTA CLARA, CA
+Certificate:                90114005622
+Tax Authority:           FRANCHISE TAX BOARD
+Release Number:    4451377L
+Release Date:         08/10/90
+
 
 
More where this came from. Yu wanna keep slamming DataBasix for no good
reason?
 
--
gburnore at databasix.com                       mailto:gburnore at databasix.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    What's another word for Thesaurus?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary L. Burnore                       |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3  
DataBasix                             |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3
San Francisco, CA                     |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3
                                      |  ][3 3 4 1 4 2  ]3^3 6 9 0 6 9 ][3
http://www.databasix.com              |     Official Proof of Purchase
===========================================================================

--- END INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

--






From nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus  Tue Nov 18 07:35:21 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:35:21 +0800
Subject: How anonymous?
Message-ID: <199711181526.QAA07169@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ian Sparkes wrote:
>If all anonymous posters make a concerted effort to write like Mr.
>Nakatuji, not only will anonymity be assured, but the list will be a *lot*
>funnier.

"You know Mixmaster?  Send me 50 dollar, I show you how use."

But seriously, there is something to be said for adopting a style of writing 
specific to a nym or group of nyms.  Anyone who has read The Economist 
magazine on various occasions knows how its language and tone are 
consistent, as if one author writes every article, issue after issue.  
Having the writings of a nym "edited" by others as a way of foiling 
Stylometry -- the statistical analysis of literary style -- may prove to be 
a lucrative business if nyms ever gain wide use, especially if they are used 
in ecommerce where anonymity of the nym holder is paramount to avoid the 
wrath of the tax man in his physical jurisdiction.

Much of our writing style is unconscious.  We habitually use certain 
vocabulary, sentence structure, punctuation.  Our writings are like a 
fingerprint.  The more we write, the greater the detail of that fingerprint. 
 We can try to alter the style.  Write shorter or longer sentences.  Choose 
our words capriciously.

But on some occasions (think ecommerce) it may be necessary to have a second 
party rewrite the original text.  Enter the "nym editor" to remove the 
stylometric clues from a nym's writings.  Correspondence between the nym 
owner and editor could be achieved anonymously using remailers, nym servers 
and "throw away" email accounts (Hotmail and Mailexcite).  

When the nym owner locates an editor and they agree on the terms of 
engagement, the owner submits his text to the editor.  The editor reworks 
it, and sends it back to the owner.  The owner may then make a few small 
changes or even submit it to another nym editor before posting the text 
under his nym.  A nym owner may prefer a certain editor's style and continue 
to use him.  Thus the nym will offer stylometric clues of the editor, not 
the owner.

The nym owner can pay the editor using ecash, preferably of the 
fully-anonymous flavor.  If the nym owner stiffs the editor on a payment, he 
can then broadcast it through the relevant channels.  The nym suffers loss 
of reputation capital.  It seems reasonable to assume that the likelihood of 
fraud by the nym holder is slim, especially if the editor tends to deal with 
persistent nyms.

Fraud by the nym editor is also unlikely.  The worst he could do is publish 
the unedited text, giving stylometric clues about the nym holder.  The 
prudent nym holder who uses more than one editor can better avoid such a 
situation, though that risk is never entirely eliminated.  However if the 
nym editor is uncertain of the author of the text he is reworking, there is 
little incentive to blackmail the nym holder since all he may be doing is 
passing on stylometric clues about another nym editor.

Amad3us wrote elsewhere:
>What do people think this nym is for?  Only nyms can trade with
>impunity in the tax free cypherspace.

But only as long as the nym holder remains anonymous.  Digital mixes are 
superb, but what good are they when we give away clues about who we are with 
every keystroke we embed in our digitally-signed messages?

Nerthus

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From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Tue Nov 18 07:47:27 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:47:27 +0800
Subject: Databasix conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <199711181511.HAA28132@sirius.infonex.com>



Andy Dustman <andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu> wrote:

> > The remailers themselves have become the victims of forgeries.  Back during
> > the DataBasix "reign of [t]error" directed at Jeff Burchell, the "DataBasix
> > cabal" (called that by a Netcom news admin, BTW) accused the Mailmasher
> > 'nymserver of being used for "forgery" of Gary Burnore's name and address
> > to various posts.  And now, even after the cajones.com domain has apparently
> > bitten the dust, I've seen complaints of spam being received by people that's
> > been forged to look as if it had come from that domain.  In the case of the
> > Burnore forgeries, the Path: was only traceable back to the mail2news gateway,
> > so the header items implicating Mailmasher could have easily been forged just
> > as Mr. Burnore's address was.  Nevertheless, these alleged "forgeries"
> > comprised the rationale used by a DataBasix employee, Billy McClatchie, for
> > demanding the Mailmasher be shut down.
>  
> I've never really been convinced that Databasix has much to do with the
> Huge Cajones fiasco. I'm not saying nobody from there is involved, though.
> I'm just trying to keep an objective opinion on the subject.

While I have no first-hand information on that, Jeff Burchell, operator of the
Huge Cajones Remailer, reported involvement of three DataBasix staff members:
Gary L. Burnore, Belinda Bryan, and William J. McClatchie (better known by the
pseodonym "Wotan").  McClatchie was also extensively involved in the public
campaign to get Mailmasher shut down.  Jeff's "post mortem" expose' on all
this can be viewed at the following URL:

  http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com/HTML-1997-11/msg00536.html

While it's perhaps not the kind of evidence, being circumstancial in nature,
that you'd take to court, it could certainly useful in trying to anticipate
and avoid potential future attacks.  Of the parties involved in the 
conflict(s) that led up to the remailer attacks, Burnore/DataBasix was the 
only one who had a motive to attack the remailers.  Gary's alternative theory 
on who was responsible, Ron Guilmette, is much less plausible.  Gary, for 
example, has consistently displayed a very bigoted attitude towards those who 
choose to utilize anonymity to maintain their privacy.  He would often refer 
to anonymous posters as "anonymous assholes", "cowards", "hiding behind the 
skirts of a remailer", etc.  

Let's take that first phrase -- "anonymous assholes".  If a person were to 
be arguing with a black man, and called him an "asshole", that would be 
somewhat acceptable.  But if he called him a "black asshole" or a "ni**er
asshole", he would be revealing his innate bigotry and you'd rightly call him 
a RACIST, implying that a member of that race had no right to express a
dissenting opinion.  The same applies when an ad hominem attack targets a 
poster's anonymity.  IMO, that makes him an anti-privacy bigot.  While he's
now tried to clean up his act by claiming that "remailers have their place",
he's on record as saying that they shouldn't be used for "abuse" and he's
defined anonymous criticism as "abuse".  Going back to the racism analogy, that 
statement is equivalent to the old line "Me?  A racist?  Why some of my best 
friends are ______".

Also, Gary Burnore expressed the repeated desire that anonymous posts that
were critical of him were designed to "stir up trouble" and represented
"abuse" that the remailers should have blocked.  If the remailer operators
wouldn't censor the criticism in the MESSAGEs, then killing the MESSENGER
(the remailers) would accomplish the same thing.

Belinda Bryan and Billy McClatchie, two other DataBasix staff members, issued 
even more scathing attacks on the posters' choice of anonymity, and against 
the remailer.  Upon occasion, they both referred to the remailer as the "No 
Balls Remailer" and implied that the poster had "tiny testicles".  Although
Belinda and Billy's comments were cloaked with a "no archive" header, and
Gary Burnore has recently requested that his posts be removed from the 
DejaNews archives, the essence of their comments can still be followed via 
the portions of their posts which were quoted by others in posts that remain 
archived.
  
> > That's even more evidence that the real target of the spam baiter(s) was the
> > remailers themselves.  Why else would you "attack" people, then anonymously
> > warn them of what you'd done?  Perhaps that's why the spam baiting reportedly
> > was directed not only at the DataBasix gang, but also at their detractors,
> > such as Ron Guilmette, Scott Dentice, etc. 
>      
> That the primary target of the spam-baiting campaign was the remailer net
> (one at a time), I have little doubt.

Which leaves two alternatives: either one of the participants in the Gary 
Burnore/Ron Guilmette/Netcom flame war was responsible, or the timing was 
merely coincidental.
 
> > > (There was another set of letters going around claiming to
> > > be pro-remailer, but I was always skeptical that that was the true
> > > intention.)
> >
> > Sounds like a classic, "F.U.D." disinformation campaign like another
> > anti-privacy bunch, the Co$, would engage in.  What better way to discredit
> > remailers that to, for example, send out anonymous messages saying "Preserve
> > your rights -- defend remailers!" and making it look like the message came
> > from a member of the KKK, or NAMBLA, or some other unpopular group.
>  
> Yes, and that's how it appeared to me, as well. In fact, I really would 
> doubt any other possible scenario, mainly because much of the spam-baiting
> was done to IP addresses (same people, different hosts), so IP addresses
> were basically outlawed (if you have an IP address, you've got to have a
> FQDN, right?). That and people were apparently being sent many copies of
> the "warning" (to the same address). Also, the tone of the letter seemed
> counter to what it was supposedly intended to accomplish, i.e., "there's
> nothing you can do about it, so stop whining". OTOH, I did make a public 
> request for whoever it was doing it to stop, and they did seem to stop
> rather shortly after that, though spam-baiting continued.

Yes, the multiple copy thing was quite "ingenious", in an anti-remailer sort
of way.  They could either be viewed as a "friendly" warning about "abuse"
involving the remailers, or they could be viewed as abusive themselves.  But
since they, like the spam bait, were also sent through the remailers, the
remailer net was the visible target either way!

Several things didn't add up about the whole "spam baiting" thing.  While
Burnore claimed that he and other DataBasix users were the primary targets of
the spam bait, their addresses seemed to comprise only a small percentage of
the e-mail addresses I saw "baited".  My own test indicated that inclusion of
an e-mail address in the body of a Usenet post was ineffective in attracting
UCE.  And one of the most visible opponents of spam baiting, Peter Bell, said
pretty much the same thing.  He was apparently one of the original "spam bait"
targets, and would publish daily "reports" on which addresses were being
baited.  When the technique suddenly switched from individual messages with
addresses in the headers to the format where lists of addresses were instead
in the BODY of the message, he concluded, based on his observations, that the
new technique was ineffective and announced that he was discontinuing his
daily reports.

Despite this fact, the DataBasix folks continued to claim that they were
being inundated with e-mailed spam due to the ongoing spam baiting.  Of course, 
since the new technique involved e-mail addresses in the BODY of
the post, their suggested "solution" was to filter anonymous posts that
contained any mention of the e-mail addresses of DataBasix staff members.
Since such blockage was what they'd wanted all along, this new form of spam
baiting provided the ideal excuse for demanding that Usenet posts that
contained any reference to them be blocked.  Jeff Burchell's post indicated
that he originally acceded to this demand, but later admitted that it was
ill-advised and he discontinued it.






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Tue Nov 18 08:03:47 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:03:47 +0800
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <JCEANJBLMCKABAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I wonder if the courts would buy a "retroactive abortion" defense in
the case of the death of an oppressive official?
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Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From rdl at mit.edu  Tue Nov 18 08:26:33 1997
From: rdl at mit.edu (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:26:33 +0800
Subject: mailing list archive
Message-ID: <199711181616.LAA07392@tana.mit.edu>



My hard disk now contains an archive of all the messages (I hope...there
are 90k of them) posted on cypherpunks, since the beginning.  It's
CD-ROM sized; I'm building a glimpse index of them right now and will put
them up on the web (tentatively somewhere on http://sof.mit.edu/) soon.  

I'll also be happy to copy them onto particular media (tape, cd, etc.) if I 
have access to the drive, for cost + a meager amount to make it worth the
effort.  I think getting list archives distributed to as many people as
possible would be a good thing -- hopefully a recursive auction market will
start and people will leave me alone after a while.

I'm doing this because there isn't a decent searchable index anywhere
that I've found, and it would be a nice thing to have, and I don't think
the time is too far off when people will try to eliminate the list.  I've
been using the archive of cpunks as my test data set in writing Eternity
DDS -- I thought it was vaguely poetic, in a way.






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Tue Nov 18 08:28:15 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:28:15 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971116113823.133A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <97Nov18.110340est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > At 9:40 PM -0700 11/14/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> > 
> > >The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
> > >because of this free scular education is a basic right that
> > >should be prodided by the state.
> > 
> > The"system" asssumes no such thing,
> 
> So an informed electorate is not neccery for democarsy to work?  Creating
> such an electorate has been one of the fundermentle elerments in most
> education policies of westion democries.

The problem is that current government (what everyone usually calls
"public") schools are creating a disinformed electorate.  Most high school
and college students think "From each according to his ability, to each
according to his needs" is in the Constitution.  For the last 30 years,
our free education has degraded to "you get what you pay for".

When we had a public/non-governmental school system (with businessmen
parents on school boards and teachers who viewed their duties as a
vocation instead of just another career) children came out of high school
knowing how to read and write (and diagram sentences), and do mathematics,
and usually several useful arts.  Now they have high self esteem in their
ignorance.

So while education is fundamental to freedom, no where does it say that
government should be the main or only provider of education.  Most other
countries are different since they don't have the same type of church and
state problems (the Church ran the education system for centuries in
some), so simply have subsidized what was there.  In the US, the
Government ensures that no part of religion - including morality and
virtue - can be part of education, so things like diligence in doing
homework are foreign to the system as much as not stabbing your
classmates.  Since it would be judgmental to teach them not to shoot or
stab people, we place metal detectors in schools.

There is also one enlightment era concept implicit in "informed
electorate" I disagree with, and is clear at this point in history.  Many
people would argue that Reason = Virtue, i.e. that all evil comes from
ignorance of some consequence of an act.  Currently, even if I prove that
something won't work because of economic laws, and even show that every
time in the past something bad happened, the answer is usually that we are
smarter (reason), or have better intentions (virtue) this time around. 
Reason is used to rationalize vice (Because of global warming...), and
Virtue is used to rationalize tyranny (gun bans - nice people have no use
for them - for an obvious example).  Reason without virtue only creates
greater evils, and virtue without reason causes more unintentional harm
than intentional good.

Both are necessary for the electorate in a democracy, and our supreme
court says we cannot teach virtue in public school, and the educators have
stopped teaching reason.  So the basic right you argue for is to be
viceous and ignorant via government schooling.  Such an electorate will
remain neither free nor democratic for long.







From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 08:42:51 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:42:51 +0800
Subject: Ben slowly learns
In-Reply-To: <MOPAGGPJEBEOAAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118082605.031957d4@popd.netcruiser>

At 01:13 AM 11/18/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>There are many circumstances that don't involve a circle of assholes
>with drawn weapons.  Perhaps you have a job that allows you to carry a
>gun; most don't.  Perhaps you drive with your weapon on your lap, and
>are always on the lookout for snipers; but I doubt it.  Maybe you have
>eyes in the back of your head, and can read people's minds, but I
>doubt that, too.  The cold fact is, Ben, if I wanted bad enough to
>kill you, you would almost certainly be dead, never knowing it
>happened.  That's not magic -- you could do the same to me, and if you
>gave 10 minutes thought you would realize this is so. 

Ummmm, when was the last time you were robbed or pistol-whipped by a
sniper?  IIRC, the original context was face to face encounters with
larcenous scum, modulo some gratuitous insults.  This is kind of a red
herring, Kent.

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
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From frantz at netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 10:05:30 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:05:30 +0800
Subject: Judge Marilyn Patel
In-Reply-To: <199711180715.IAA13188@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03110753b09783af5268@[207.94.250.122]>



The San Jose Mercury News reports that Judge Patel has been promoted to
Chief Judge of the Northern District of California.  It lists some of her
decisions as:

* The first judge to declare illegal the WW2 internment of Japanese-Americans

* The gas chamber is a cruel and unusual punishment.

Given the way these high profile decisions have been upheld on appeal, we
can hope for the Burnstein case to be upheld as well.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From kent at songbird.com  Tue Nov 18 10:11:39 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:11:39 +0800
Subject: Ben slowly learns
In-Reply-To: <MOPAGGPJEBEOAAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <19971118095509.08331@songbird.com>



On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 08:26:05AM -0800, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> At 01:13 AM 11/18/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >There are many circumstances that don't involve a circle of assholes
> >with drawn weapons.  Perhaps you have a job that allows you to carry a
> >gun; most don't.  Perhaps you drive with your weapon on your lap, and
> >are always on the lookout for snipers; but I doubt it.  Maybe you have
> >eyes in the back of your head, and can read people's minds, but I
> >doubt that, too.  The cold fact is, Ben, if I wanted bad enough to
> >kill you, you would almost certainly be dead, never knowing it
> >happened.  That's not magic -- you could do the same to me, and if you
> >gave 10 minutes thought you would realize this is so. 
> 
> Ummmm, when was the last time you were robbed or pistol-whipped by a
> sniper?  IIRC, the original context was face to face encounters with
> larcenous scum, modulo some gratuitous insults.  This is kind of a red
> herring, Kent.

No, the original context was my statement that I had been robbed three
times at gunpoint, and that having a gun wouldn't have made any
difference at the time.  Ben wasn't there and doesn't have a clue
about the circumstances (of course), but felt free to comment (in
essence) that I must be stupid to let someone get the drop on me.

That's macho bullshit.  There is no perfect defense, and my example 
was to demonstrate that simple fact.

Please note that I didn't say that guns were *always* worthless.  So
Ben's example of ratting on someone and then packing heat to scare off
people who might retaliate is the real red herring.  It also obviously
demonstrates a certain amount of basic, dealing-with-life kind of
cluelessness on his part, for other reasons I won't go into. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From ryan at michonline.com  Tue Nov 18 10:26:34 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:26:34 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711181241.HAA04320@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118131341.28784D-100000@king>



> ObThereShouldBeALaw

This one's almost good enough to start using....

ObThereShouldBeALaw: Everyone should be required to submit an
ObThereShouldBeALaw..






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 10:30:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:30:14 +0800
Subject: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <199711181815.TAA24353@basement.replay.com>



Monty Cantsin writes:

> What the Net and cypherpunkly tools create is a world in which there
> are not easily identified disjoint sets because any particular net of
> relationships that a person has tends to overlap the relationship nets
> of other people who have a dissimilar set of relationships.
> 
> This is a more reliable and robust world to live in because there is a
> great deal of redundancy.  That is, the elites of two countries cannot
> conspire to use their respective sets of serfs as cannon fodder in
> some ill advised adventure.  It's hard to get excited about a war run
> by people who are not your friends against people who happen to live
> in another part of the world but with whom you have a relationship.

Good point, but it's important to realize that these new attitudes are
only available to people who have access to the tools.  Much of the world
is still trapped in a dark age, without access to the light brought by
tools for communication.  Powerful interests seek to keep them that way.
Until that changes, the old mindset of us-against-them will continue to
be a threat to peace.

We as cypherpunks must be leaders in encouraging wider access to
communications and the tools which manage information.  It's not
right to target our message narrowly to the militias and racists
who gravitate towards anti-government causes.  We must be inclusive,
offering encouragement to other cultures, other races, other countries.
Anti-Japanese, anti-Jewish, anti-Black, anti-Arab sentiments will only
hinder our success, and likewise with our emphasis on violence, killing,
and death as solutions to problems.

The fact that other cultures are often repressive in their own right is
no excuse.  The tools we offer will help them become more open-minded
and inclusive.  But we must set an example ourselves.  It is a tragedy
that the message of hate is being propagated within a technological
movement which should foster openness and enlightenment.  We can do
better than this.






From rdl at mit.edu  Tue Nov 18 10:38:02 1997
From: rdl at mit.edu (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:38:02 +0800
Subject: mailing list archive
Message-ID: <199711181827.NAA08131@tana.mit.edu>



Doh -- I thought my dataset included everything, but it instead just
covers every article I can think of between:

> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 22:53:39 BST
> From: whitaker at eternity.demon.co.uk (Russell E. Whitaker)
> Reply-To: whitaker at eternity.demon.co.uk
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Cc: whitaker at eternity.demon.co.uk

and the present.  I'm also feeling tempted to incorporate the archives of
some of the offshoot mailing lists, like coderpunks, etc.  

Does anyone know of a good source for the messages before that one?  How
many were there, approximately?  If there are a bunch of them and you can
merge them with mine, I'll be happy to send you a cd of the result.

If enough people want to buy CDs of the data, I'll set up an order page,
establish pricing, etc.  Right now, for me to make a CD requires buying
media and doing it at the media lab, unless I buy a drive, so the cost
is somewhat dependent upon how many people are interested.  If someone wants
to use corporate or government money to overpay for a cd so I can buy
a cd-r writer and make it cheaper for everyone else, I'll think fondly of
whatever organization you represent :)  

Utterly ignoring the copyright issues in the interest of getting wide
dispersal, especially since it's unlikely anyone cares since no one will
get rich selling cypherpunks cd-roms,
Ryan
(the last time I wished for something in parenthetical postscript it worked.
Wish granting service, will you please make the people of the world 
clueful enough to replace governmental/military force with cryptography?  Or
convince one of my professors that they should sign a blank thesis?)
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl at mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/		







From rdl at mit.edu  Tue Nov 18 11:00:41 1997
From: rdl at mit.edu (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:00:41 +0800
Subject: technical issues of the list
Message-ID: <199711181854.NAA08249@tana.mit.edu>



Tim May wrote:

> (There is, by the way, a project simmering along to put the 5 years of
> Cypherpunks traffic on a Web site...)

I have everything but the first 8 months or so of traffic in the process
of going up on the web soon. (Stupid deadline appeared which put this off
for a few hours).  If the first 8 months were in someplace I could find
them, then there would be a nice complete archive no longer simmering, but
up on the web, ready for people to mirror.  Dr. Dobbs' Journal sells
a Cryptography CD-ROM with AC v 2, etc. on it for $99, and combined with
a Cypherpunks CD-ROM containing list archives of cypherpunks, coderpunks,
cryptography at c2.org, and maybe some other stuff for $50 or so, there would
be 2-cd solution.

I'm pretty sure all 5 years fit on one cd-rom -- I've been using 4 years
as an eternity dds dataset, along with some other stuff, and I think it is
less than 500mb, although one of the problems with my current eternity
file system under linux is that there is no way of telling how big a
directory is (yay VFS kludges). 
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl at mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/		







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 11:22:56 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:22:56 +0800
Subject: mailing list archive
In-Reply-To: <199711181827.NAA08131@tana.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102800b097862f9d3e@[207.167.93.63]>



At 11:27 AM -0700 11/18/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:

>Does anyone know of a good source for the messages before that one?  How
>many were there, approximately?  If there are a bunch of them and you can
>merge them with mine, I'll be happy to send you a cd of the result.

You should talk to Hugh Daniel, who has a project to put the entire
archives of the list from toad.com on a server, or whatever. (Hugh is
working hard on the SWAN project, so this may be on the back burner.)

My understanding is that essentially complete archives exist, possibly with
some overlaps that would need some tuning or filtering, since the list went
online in October 1992. (Until, of course, toad.com stopped being the host
of the list.)

I presume there must be "merge and filter out dupes" programs, based on
message ID or some hash of the contents, to allow the many separate
archives to be dumped into one giant data base and then sorted to weed out
dupes.


>If enough people want to buy CDs of the data, I'll set up an order page,
>establish pricing, etc.  Right now, for me to make a CD requires buying
>media and doing it at the media lab, unless I buy a drive, so the cost
>is somewhat dependent upon how many people are interested.  If someone wants
>to use corporate or government money to overpay for a cd so I can buy
>a cd-r writer and make it cheaper for everyone else, I'll think fondly of
>whatever organization you represent :)

You don't need to ask for donations...either use a CD-R burning service and
charge enough to cover your costs and a bit more, or take a small gamble
and set yourself up as your own CD-R burner (something you'll want for your
Eternity Service anyway...for backups if for nothing else). I'm skeptical
of charityware projects...

A CD-ROM is no more expensive than a Cypherpunks t-shirt, and there have
been several different versions of them. All done without asking for
donations.

I'll certainly order one or two of these CD-ROMs, if they're done
reasonably well.

The CD-ROM ought to be in format readable by the major platforms, which is
usually not a big problem, if the right protocol is used. And probably just
in sendmail "linear" file format, so that the mailers we have can read the
file in. Getting fancy with sorting the messages into subdirectories would
get hairy. Possibly the files could be arranged by month, or year. Many of
the "Web archives," e.g., of the Extropians and Cypherpunks lists,
apparently organize by months and years, so this software may already be
available for you to use.

I don't think you need to buy a CD-R for this one-shot product (though CD-R
drives are now very cheap and you might want one for yourself, anyway). A
vast number of services have sprung up to do this for you, for reasonable
fees. Check the ad pages of any of the PC magazines, or do a Web search.

(The way it works is that one sends them a disk drive, or Bernoullis, or MO
disks, or tapes, properly formatted, and they do a run of disks. I have no
idea what you have available, but you ought to be able to get access to an
external 650 MB hard disk, which can then be taken down to a local burner
outfit, probably one near you in Cambridge or Boston. They hook up the
drive, transfer the files, and make the run.)

A service will even label the CD-ROMs produced.

>
>Utterly ignoring the copyright issues in the interest of getting wide
>dispersal, especially since it's unlikely anyone cares since no one will
>get rich selling cypherpunks cd-roms,

I wouldn't count on this. I think you can assume that at least _someone_
will raise a stink, if only to see the sparks fly (to mix some metaphors).
At least someone will threaten to sue, claiming that their words are
copyrighted.

Furthermore, many of the posts over the years have contained copyrighted
newspaper articles, copyrighted programs, even stolen material.

This shouldn't discourage you, necessarily, and you may be able to use some
protections as a "archiver" rather than as a "editor."

(BTW, using editorial discretion to remove some items, such as "Wall Street
Journal" copyrighted articles, or ASCII art insults, or RC4 code apparently
liberated from RSADSI, etc., will _increase_ your liability and exposure,
not decrease it. For you will then unambiguously be making editorial
choices, and hence certain protections lapse.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From ryan at michonline.com  Tue Nov 18 11:23:25 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:23:25 +0800
Subject: technical issues of the list
In-Reply-To: <199711181854.NAA08249@tana.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118140956.28784H-100000@king>



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Ryan Lackey wrote:

> up on the web, ready for people to mirror.  Dr. Dobbs' Journal sells
> a Cryptography CD-ROM with AC v 2, etc. on it for $99, and combined with

Has anyone actually received this yet?  I ordered mine in August, and I
still  haven't gotten it.  (I hadn't bothered to call, because I'd noticed
in sci.crypt that *no one* had gotten theirs..)

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 11:34:12 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:34:12 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118144118.21511I-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0978b70d918@[207.167.93.63]>



At 5:44 AM -0700 11/18/97, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:
>How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
>companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest money
>into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
>Europe?
>


Until recently it was legal for U.S. folks to invest at they saw fit,
modulo that they could not invest in Cuba, Yemen, N. Korea, Eastasia,
Oceania, and other such Enemies of the People.

And a U.S. company could not export expertise to a foreign site to avoid
the export laws (ITARS, now EARs). Thus, RSA could not send Rivest and
others to Estonia to develop s/w to bypass U.S. export laws. (In a sense,
Rivest is non-exportable.)

All this may be changing, for the worse.

The Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995 made _financial_ support of some list of
organizations illegal. This list was finally published, and includes a few
dozen "terrorist" organizations.

This has been interpreted by many to mean that charitable donations to one
of the listed groups, the Irish Republican Army, for example, could be a
crime.

Will some of these offshore crypto and software companies be placed on this
list? Will this make investment in these companies a crime under the
Anti-Terrorism Act?

I believe this will happen. Maybe not next year, but within five years.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From kent at songbird.com  Tue Nov 18 11:55:21 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:55:21 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <199711181241.HAA04320@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <19971118113132.27598@songbird.com>



On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 01:15:16PM -0500, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> > ObThereShouldBeALaw
> 
> This one's almost good enough to start using....
> 
> ObThereShouldBeALaw: Everyone should be required to submit an
> ObThereShouldBeALaw..

Though I think it would sound a little better as

ObThereOttaBeALaw:

Here's an ObCrypto:

A prisoner in jail receives a letter from his wife. "I have decided to
plant some lettuce in the back garden. When is the best time to plant
them?" The prisoner, knowing that the prison guards read all mail,
replied in a letter, "Dear Wife, whatever you do, do not touch the back
garden. That is where I hid all the money."

A week or so later, he recieved another letter from his wife: "You
wouldn't believe what happened, some men came with shovels to the house,
and dug up all the back garden."

The prisoner wrote another letter: "Dear wife, now is the best time to
plant the lettuce."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Nov 18 12:16:02 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:16:02 +0800
Subject: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711182014.OAA23881@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:07:49 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
> Subject: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street?

> In the study of American theological history, the period when Mormonism was
> invented is called the Great Awakening.

Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at best.
Ol' Joe Smith lived in the early and late 1800's nearly a hundred years
after the traditional Great Awakening. Is your claim that there was a 
second Great Awakending or are you saying the traditional (if you will)
dating is incorrect?

> that Vlad Dracul, the Impaler, was Transylvanian

Actualy, to be accurate his name was Vlad Teppish. He was eventualy killed by
his lord for carrying on excesses such as killing a woman because she let her
husband walk around with a tattered coat. Dracul and Dracula are derived
from dragon and imply a connection with the devil (which also derives its
own existance from this lexical tree).

> Of opinion, influence, and reputation, opinion is the most atomic. An opinion
> can be safely defined as a judgement, right or wrong, based on some accepted,
> or maybe just perceived, set of facts.

Doesn't the use of 'perceived' imply some a priori assumptions about the 
base structure of reality and in fact imply a more atomistic issue, that
of conceptual viability? How does an opinion become atomistic if in order
to express it we must invoke other equaly critical (or atomistic)
expressions? Further, without testing a 'perceived' fact is nothing but an
opinion.

> word about whether Socrates said the words himself. Opinion can be completely
> dissociated from identity. An anonymous post on a mailing list can have an
> opinion, and people can agree or disagree with that opinion as they see fit.

That doesn't change the fact that the opinion, anonymous or not, originated
from a single source. While I can accept that testable facts can be isolated
from source biases it escapes me how an opinion can be so isolated. At its
lowest level it is nothing more than a description of an individuals
beliefs about reality and their place in it and clearly has impact on the
sorts of ideas that are expressible in them.

Perhaps opinion & fact are unwittingly being confused. Opinions tell the
observer about the holder of the opinion, not the subject the opinion is
direct toward.

> can't *prove* our opinions are right. The definition of modern human thinking,
> is, however, that at the core of it all, someone, somewhere, is using science
> - -- which is all about verifiable and replicable physical results -- to
> validate, and occasionally create, the set of opinions most of us would now
> call knowlege. So, science or no, our thinking is still functionally,
> heuristics, but it works. Oh, well. Life is hard. :-).

Science is about how to ask questions, it is NOT concerned with the results
directly. Science is a non-intuitive mechanism whereby we can regulate how
we think about the world around us. What to do with the results is engineering.
Science itself is heuristic.

> I think the nice thing about science in the geodesic age, by the way, is that
> the technology of microcomputers and networks makes it easier for more people
> to be closer to scientific truth.

There is no 'scientific truth', THE main axiom of science is that everything
is open to review and change in responce to the observation and description
of the item under studies interactions with the environment around it.

> So, what's influence? On a personal basis, influence occurs when someone else
> agrees with your opinions.

Only if they changed their opinions *because* of the expression of your
opinions. Otherwise we are left with independant discovery. Influence is
the ability of one theory to cause the holder of another theory to add
data or tests that could potentialy alter the outcome of that original
theory. The results may or may not support either of the original theories
or could even cause a 3rd theory to be born.

> The more people agree with your opinions, the more
> influence you have.

The more people agree with your opinions AND are willing to act on them is
a measure of influence. Also, the fact that others may in fact be motivated
to act because they *disagree* with you also is clearly a possibility you
don't address. Never confuse popularity with influence.

> Back to our stack of planes, by no means does the "line" of someone's identity
> have to be a straight one

This runs counter to your assumption regarding the number of line-plane
intersections. If the line is not geometricaly 'straight' it can in fact have
zero, one, or more intersections. This causes a problem with this part of the
conclusion, you are using the axiom as proof of the assertion (the axiom).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 12:16:57 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:16:57 +0800
Subject: Flight 007 and our Civil Liberties
Message-ID: <v03102802b09795d84b18@[207.167.93.63]>




The FBI has just completed a long press conference in which it reported its
"no terrorist activity suspected" conclusions. Having watched most of it,
and having seen the CIA animation shown at the press conference, I agree
with their conclusions.

(Cypherpunks arch-enemy James Kallstrom, Assistant Director of the FBI,
nevertheless did a fine job,  both in the investigation and in the
reporting. Credit where credit is due.)

However, now that the Flight 007 explosion has been ruled a non-terrorist
event, will we get our freedoms back?

The other big "terrorist event" of that summer of 1996 was the bomb in a
crowd at the Summer Olympic Games in Atlanta. The "fits the profile" perp,
Richard Jewell, was finally cleared of all charges.

So, these were the two big events which stimulated the FAA, under higher
orders, to require mandatory ID of all travelling passengers. And more
multimillion dollar sniffers to be installed in airports.

It seems that each such event ratchets down certain civil liberties, and
even the later repudiation of terrorists and other Horsemen in these events
never results in the liberties coming back....

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Tue Nov 18 12:30:38 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:30:38 +0800
Subject: List Robustness
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117190222.00688de4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971119211744.9826A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
> Just to balance Singapore, it'd be nice to have an archive in Amsterdam :-)
> Or in Virtual Tonga, or Niue.   Then there's the mirror at Ft. Meade :-)

I currently see no need for another archive. Certainly not on this Tongan
box. If some nodes go away, I might reconsider.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From gwb at gwb.com.au  Wed Nov 19 04:35:39 1997
From: gwb at gwb.com.au (Global Web Builders)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:35:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Pauline, The Hanson Phenomenon" by Helen Dodd
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971119221351.6c6f3956@mail.ipswich.gil.com.au>


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PLEASE NOTE: No unsolicited email is sent. If you do not want to be on the
mailing list please say "REMOVE" in the subject line and return this message
in the body.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Special Newsletter No 1.5a


Dear Pauline Hanson One Nation Supporters in NSW,

The 250 page authorised biography of Pauline Hanson (with pictures),
"Pauline, the Hanson Phenomenon" by Helen Dodd will be launched this Friday.
The book will make an excellent Christmas present.

The background on the book can be seen (together with a printable order
form) at:

http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/news/onenation/book.html

If you order the book by fax by midnight Thursday night (20th November) you
will get a copy in the mail signed by Pauline Hanson at Friday's launch.

Fax your order to: (07) 3201 0961

Alternatively, if you wish, you may send your credit card and other details
(as per the on-line form) to the author by email at:

camint at geocities.com

(signing timeline as per fax)

If you are paying by cheque, please make your cheques payable to: 

CYBER ADVERTISING AND MARKETING.

------------
Book costs:

The soft covered book sells for Au$24.95 (including postage).

The limited edition numbered hard copy edition (only 150) sells for
Au$70.00. (Please note nearly half of these hard copy editions have been
sold already).

Any orders received after midnight Thursday night WILL NOT BE SIGNED AT THE
LAUNCH because of administrative restrictions..... so get your order in now!

GWB



Scott Balson






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Tue Nov 18 12:48:01 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:48:01 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118144118.21511I-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971119212443.9826B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:

> 
> 
> How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
> companies?

They don't.

> Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest money
> into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
> Europe? 

It is legal. For now.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 12:51:46 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:51:46 +0800
Subject: How anonymous?
In-Reply-To: <199711181526.QAA07169@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118100119.006d70e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 04:26 PM 11/18/1997 +0100, Nerthus wrote:
>Having the writings of a nym "edited" by others as a way of foiling 
>Stylometry -- the statistical analysis of literary style -- may prove to be 
>a lucrative business if nyms ever gain wide use, especially if they are used 
>in ecommerce where anonymity of the nym holder is paramount to avoid the 
>wrath of the tax man in his physical jurisdiction.

As computer programs for analyzing and generating natural language improve,
there's a lot that can be automated, though stylometry does give away which
rewriters you commonly use, the way typewriter differences used to generate clues.
There are crude examples today, like Jive and Valspeak,
and you probably wouldn't want to use a Zippyfier on your ecommerce
	Yow!  Here's $50 for that polysorbate-80!   The Net is a blur of
	Republicans and 0xdeadbeef!  Deposit to account 1028804154422215!
	I'm eating 33 bushels of soybean futures! Yow!
Also, I'm sure there will be freelance writing coaches out there on the net,
who make a business of editing, and who'll be happy to take your
grody Valley-Accent writing and help you write proper formal business jargon,
and if you're giving them the already robo-rewritten text, that's pretty secure.

Also, formal grammars, such as EDI, often constrain the expressiveness of 
commercial communications, reducing the need for obfuscation.




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Nov 18 12:53:13 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:53:13 +0800
Subject: List Robustness
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117190222.00688de4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711181135.LAA00174@server.test.net>




Bill Stewart <stewarts at ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Usenet is a _great_ place to run Blacknet, because background noise
> is your friend, and the uncensorability depends on piggybacking on
> the firehose.

Piggy-backing the firehose to borrow it's uncensorability was the idea
with the prototype eternity server.  I am not sure USENET is really
that reliable is the problem for it.  So perhaps you can boost
reliability by redundancy, secret split messages.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Nov 18 12:55:34 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:55:34 +0800
Subject: hotmail &c as exit remailers (Re: Databasix conspiracy theories)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117175315.006a2520@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199711180916.JAA01136@server.test.net>




Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk at ix.netcom.com> writes:
> [free mail by web accounts on mailexcite.com as remailers..]
> 
> Any shmuck can log on and input a fake name, address, and
> demographic data to create a new account at hotmail, mailexcite, or
> juno.  In this way, as existing remailers are harassed out of
> existence, new ones can be created on a daily or hourly basis.  It
> would probably be interesting to find out how much info these
> outfits collect (cookies, etc.) that could be definitively linked to
> a True Name.

A shortish while ago using these free email by web accounts as exit
remailers in the remailer net was discussed.  Someone enthused with
the practicality of the idea said "let's do it".  Ian Goldberg said
"OK" and did it, posting perl code to interface to them.

His code also automates the process of opening accounts on several of
these services, and even automates the process of grabbing a random
open web proxy address from a public list of them, and sending
outgoing mail via them so that the sending remailer hosts IP address
is not included in the headers.  (Several of the email by web things
include your IP address in the headers).

I think several of the remailers are using this setup.

If any remailers are thinking of throwing in the towel due to abuse,
I'd highly recommend switching to using Ian's script as the final hop
mail delivery agent.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 13:04:15 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:04:15 +0800
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118094016.006d70e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



Forwarded from IETF-Announce at ietf.org and ietf-open-pgp at imc.org
---------------------------------------------------------------
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the An Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: OP Formats - OpenPGP Message Format
	Author(s)	: R. Thayer, J. Callas, L. Donnerhacke, H. Finney
	Filename	: draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
	Pages		: 40
	Date		: 17-Nov-97
	
This document is maintained in order to publish all necessary
information needed to develop interoperable applications based on the
OP format.  It is not a step-by-step cookbook for writing an
application, it describes only the format and methods needed to read,
check, generate and write conforming packets crossing any network.  It
does not deal with storing and implementation questions albeit it is
necessary to avoid security flaws.
 
OP (Open-PGP) software uses a combination of strong public-key and
conventional cryptography to provide security services for electronic
communications and data storage.  These services include
confidentiality, key management, authentication and digital signatures.
This document specifies the message formats used in OP.

Internet-Drafts are available by anonymous FTP.  Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address.  After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt".
A URL for the Internet-Draft is:
ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt

Internet-Drafts directories are located at:

	Africa:	ftp.is.co.za
	
	Europe: ftp.nordu.net
		ftp.nis.garr.it
			
	Pacific Rim: munnari.oz.au
	
	US East Coast: ds.internic.net
	
	US West Coast: ftp.isi.edu

Internet-Drafts are also available by mail.

Send a message to:	mailserv at ds.internic.net.  In the body type:
	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt".
	
NOTE:	The mail server at ds.internic.net can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
	how to manipulate these messages.
		
		
Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:	<19971117171828.I-D at ietf.org>

ENCODING mime
FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt

<ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt>

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 13:04:17 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:04:17 +0800
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118094058.006d70e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



From: Paul Hoffman / IMC <phoffman at imc.org>

At 09:45 AM 11/18/97 -0500, Internet-Drafts at ietf.org wrote:
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
>This draft is a work item of the An Open Specification for Pretty Good
Privacy Working Group of the IETF.
>
>	Title		: OP Formats - OpenPGP Message Format
>	Author(s)	: R. Thayer, J. Callas, L. Donnerhacke, H. Finney
>	Filename	: draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
>	Pages		: 40
>	Date		: 17-Nov-97
>	

This is also available as <http://www.imc.org/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats>.
As the draft gets revised in the future, this URL will always point to the
latest version.


--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 13:04:21 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:04:21 +0800
Subject: Synergy between IE4 bug and Intel flaw
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118103354.006d70e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



RISKS DIGEST 19.46 http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/19.46.html     
has several articles on the Pentium F00FC7C8 bug.
Apparently there are workarounds for it, but there's also the article below.
(Also, Microsoft has supposedly issued a fix for the IE4 bug, 
but fat chance on everybody deploying it quickly enough.)
-----------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:27:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Jonathan Levine <jonathan at canuck.com>
Subject: Synergy between IE4 bug and Intel flaw

By now I'm sure you've heard about this delightful synergy:
> ------- Forwarded Message
> Date:    Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:53:45 -0500
> From:    "Per Hammer" <phammer at raleigh.ibm.com>
> Subject: New IE4 security hole exploited ...
> 
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/8429.html
> 
> The deal is, if your use a 'RES://' URL that us longer than 256 characters,
> byte 257 onwards will be executed as machine code. Now ... think ...
> F0 0F C7 C8
> 
> Which is only slightly less malicious than deleting any files ...
> 
> Per Hammer  phammer at raleigh.ibm.com			






From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 13:35:45 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:35:45 +0800
Subject: Overcoming War by Making Friends
Message-ID: <199711182118.PAA27868@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody at replay.com> wrote:
>Monty Cantsin writes:
>
>> What the Net and cypherpunkly tools create is a world in which there
>> are not easily identified disjoint sets because any particular net of
>> relationships that a person has tends to overlap the relationship nets
>> of other people who have a dissimilar set of relationships.
>> 
>> This is a more reliable and robust world to live in because there is a
>> great deal of redundancy.  That is, the elites of two countries cannot
>> conspire to use their respective sets of serfs as cannon fodder in
>> some ill advised adventure.  It's hard to get excited about a war run
>> by people who are not your friends against people who happen to live
>> in another part of the world but with whom you have a relationship.
>
>Good point, but it's important to realize that these new attitudes
>are only available to people who have access to the tools.  Much of
>the world is still trapped in a dark age, without access to the light
>brought by tools for communication.  Powerful interests seek to keep
>them that way.  Until that changes, the old mindset of
>us-against-them will continue to be a threat to peace.

True.  However, to the extent that we and our friends do not
participate, there will be that much less war.  Even if we fail to end
all wars, even the prevention of a single war (or the shortening of
one war!) will be worth the effort.  "War is not healthy for children
and other living things."

I've mentioned the newspaper "The Aurora" which was active during the
Adams administration.  A strong argument can be made that this one
newspaper prevented a war with France and the introduction of Monarchy
into the United States.  Considering the relatively small number of
people involved with this list, the prevention of one war would be a
fantastic achievement.

Consider the benefit that the prevention of World War I would have
brought the world.  Millions of people would not have died before
their time.  Millions of other people would not have lead lives after
the war of dejection and sorrow either due to their own direct
involvement in the war or that of their friends and relatives.

Communism would probably not have arisen sparing the lives of
millions.

World War II would probably not have occurred again sparing the lives
of millions.

The development of germ warfare, chemical warfare, and nuclear warfare
would have proceeded far more slowly.

We would be living in a far wealthier and more peaceful world.

>We as cypherpunks must be leaders in encouraging wider access to
>communications and the tools which manage information.  It's not
>right to target our message narrowly to the militias and racists who
>gravitate towards anti-government causes.  We must be inclusive,
>offering encouragement to other cultures, other races, other
>countries.  Anti-Japanese, anti-Jewish, anti-Black, anti-Arab
>sentiments will only hinder our success, and likewise with our
>emphasis on violence, killing, and death as solutions to problems.

Here I am afraid we disagree.  The world has too many damned leaders!

I also believe that it is a better practice to explore ideas that are
interesting and discuss them honestly rather than to attempt to
sweeten the ideas for consumption by large numbers of people.  The people
who are receptive to our ideas will understand.  Those who are not
will become slaves.

As for being inclusive to foreigners, it's a pretty inclusive list.
After all, anybody in the world who can operate majordomo is allowed
to participate!  You can't do much better than that.

It's my guess that most current readers of the list don't especially
care where people come from or even their exact ideological alignment,
so long as they have interesting things to say.

Finally, your perception that there is an "emphasis on violence,
killing, and death" is not accurate.  What is the cypherpunk body
count?  Last I checked it was zero.  Out of the thousands of people
who have been on the list, can you think of a single act of violence
perpetrated by a list member?  The only ones I know about happened in
wars sponsored by the U.S. government before the list was even formed.

>The fact that other cultures are often repressive in their own right
>is no excuse.  The tools we offer will help them become more
>open-minded and inclusive.  But we must set an example ourselves.  It
>is a tragedy that the message of hate is being propagated within a
>technological movement which should foster openness and
>enlightenment.  We can do better than this.

Maybe it would be best if you set an example in setting an example
for the rest of us to follow.  ;-)

My sense of your article, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, is
that you see the Cypherpunks as a more or less cohesive group with a
coherent agenda and a face to present to the outside world.

I prefer to look at it as a mailing list to which anybody in the world
may subscribe.  I am certainly not responsible for other people's work
on it, for better or for worse.

And, I believe we will get more done if I, for one example, think for
myself about the most useful thing my time could be spent doing.

If 100 cypherpunks choose one leader and follow his instructions will
we really accomplish more than if 100 cypherpunks think imaginatively
and creatively about what they themselves will do?  I doubt it.

Besides which, leaders are choke points.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 13:49:57 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:49:57 +0800
Subject: OUCH!
Message-ID: <199711182125.WAA15222@basement.replay.com>



My ass hurts.






From ggr at qualcomm.com  Tue Nov 18 13:51:35 1997
From: ggr at qualcomm.com (Greg Rose)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:51:35 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b0978b70d918@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711182137.IAA05520@avalon.qualcomm.com>



Tim May writes:
>At 5:44 AM -0700 11/18/97, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:
>>How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
>>companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest money
>>into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
>>Europe?
>
>And a U.S. company could not export expertise to a foreign site to avoid
>the export laws (ITARS, now EARs). Thus, RSA could not send Rivest and
>others to Estonia to develop s/w to bypass U.S. export laws. (In a sense,
>Rivest is non-exportable.)
 
There are also special rules about "weapons of
mass destruction" in the Wassenaar Arrangement
rules, and also I think in other US regulations.

These make interesting reading -- any form of aid
to someone developing nuclear weapons, chemical
weapons, or biological weapons is forbidden. That
aid can be giving them money, expertise, or even
technical documentation. Has anyone at Sun ever
sent a Java manual to a pharmaceutical company
outside the US? Hmmm.

Of course crypto is not currently classed as a
weapon of mass destruction, but if there was an
electronic terrorist attack on the entire US
telephone system it could easily make people
think about changing that. And in the meantime the
list of chemicals mentioned above is sufficiently
broad that almost anyone could be technically
guilty of something.

(not normally very paranoid)
Greg.

Greg Rose               INTERNET: ggr at qualcomm.com
QUALCOMM Australia      VOICE:  +61-2-9743 4646   FAX: +61-2-9736 3262
6 Kingston Avenue       http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ 
Mortlake NSW 2137       B5 DF 66 95 89 68 1F C8  EF 29 FA 27 F2 2A 94 8F






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 18 13:53:01 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:53:01 +0800
Subject: Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
In-Reply-To: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v0400274eb097a09049c4@[139.167.130.246]>



At 9:51 pm -0500 on 11/17/97, Tim May wrote:

> You give yourself too much credit, Little Bunny Rabbit.
>
> Given that I've been posting, and you haven't, you appear to be delusional
> as well as frightened.

Patience, yourself, Grasshopper. :-).


I've been *working*, Tim, for actual money. Mostly. (I *knew* you'd be
happy for me.)  2 articles, (one for Russian publication (ooooo!), one for
a Mac (hisssss!!!!) internet magazine, on the effect of cryptography on
markets and on cryptography policy, respectively, a meeting with someone
who, out of the blue, offered to shop for e$lab money on a trip to New
York, and a bunch of FC98 stuff.

Oh. And a, um, 41k e$ rant. :-), which, I think, just counts for posting to
cypherpunks, I'd bet. Heck, it's even mildly germaine to what's left of the
charter around here...

Now, I'm starting to thrash the inbound e$pam traffic after 4 days. So,
it'll be *real* interesting to see exactly how useful (ie worth sending to
my subscribers and paying sponsors) your "posting" to this list has been
the past few days.

Hint: if the past year's been any indication, not much, not since you've
regressed to your youth and joined the Weather Underground.

So, smell ya later, chief. Then, you can tell me, yet again, just exactly
which way the wind's blowin'.

Just don't forget your coat, while you're standing there in the breeze...


Feh.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 18 13:55:41 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:55:41 +0800
Subject: Invasive interface
Message-ID: <v0400272eb097920be0a3@[139.167.130.246]>




--- begin forwarded text


From: Eric Paulos <paulos at cs.berkeley.edu>
To: wearables List <wearables at media.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Invasive interface
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:28:02 -0800


On a somewhat related issue Eduardo Kac from the Chicago Art Institute
last week sucessfully implanted a microchip under his skin.  This is
much more of a "dumb" chip as it simply can report back an ID number
when queried and doesn't really have any sensing or processing.
However, it is notable because it was done by a non-medical individual
on his own accord and at least shows that implants are becoming a more
accessable to the common person.  Now only what to do about that
heatsink...  More info here:

	 http://www.dialdata.com.br/casadasrosas/net-art/kac/

-Eric Paulos



  AO>  Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:49:57 -0500 (EST) From: Lee Campbell
  AO>  <elwin at media.mit.edu> Subject: Re: beyond wearable

  >> My wife's uncle just got a pacemaker.  It's a new design; it
  >> listens to his heart, runs signal processing algorithms, and
  >> decides if his occasional arrhythmia is present; if so it takes
  >> over control of his heart muscles; the rest of the time it sits
  >> idle and lets his heart be controlled naturally.

	.... TRUNCATED MESSAGE

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 18 13:57:38 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:57:38 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4545] Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
In-Reply-To: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v04002754b097a866212d@[139.167.130.246]>



At 8:48 pm -0500 on 11/17/97, TruthMonger wrote:


>   Right... Like we're going to believe this when communist pedophile
> Nazi cocksucker Robert Hettinga tells it to us.

I think you've contradicted your namespace there at least twice. Certainly
not enough entropy for cryptographic purposes... Try again, please. :-).

>   I bet that when I look up 'vuperative' in the dictionary, he'll be
> wrong about that, too.

Got me again. I read the Cliff Notes.

Here, I'll use the proper spelling in a sentence: "Vituperative, aren't we?"

Oh, well, that's what I get for thinking faster than I type these days. ;-)

I suppose that beats the alternative, eh, Mr.
Monger/Toto/Baba/ChetWhack-ins/Whoever-you-are?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 18 13:59:54 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:59:54 +0800
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
Message-ID: <v0400272bb0979128ab30@[139.167.130.246]>


--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
To: IETF-Announce at ietf.org
Cc: ietf-open-pgp at imc.org
From: Internet-Drafts at ietf.org
Reply-to: Internet-Drafts at ietf.org
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:45:05 -0500
Sender: owner-ietf-open-pgp at imc.org
Precedence: bulk

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the An Open Specification for Pretty Good
Privacy Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: OP Formats - OpenPGP Message Format
	Author(s)	: R. Thayer, J. Callas, L. Donnerhacke, H. Finney
	Filename	: draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
	Pages		: 40
	Date		: 17-Nov-97

This document is maintained in order to publish all necessary
information needed to develop interoperable applications based on the
OP format.  It is not a step-by-step cookbook for writing an
application, it describes only the format and methods needed to read,
check, generate and write conforming packets crossing any network.  It
does not deal with storing and implementation questions albeit it is
necessary to avoid security flaws.

OP (Open-PGP) software uses a combination of strong public-key and
conventional cryptography to provide security services for electronic
communications and data storage.  These services include
confidentiality, key management, authentication and digital signatures.
This document specifies the message formats used in OP.

Internet-Drafts are available by anonymous FTP.  Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address.  After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt".
A URL for the Internet-Draft is:
ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt

Internet-Drafts directories are located at:

	Africa:	ftp.is.co.za

	Europe: ftp.nordu.net
		ftp.nis.garr.it

	Pacific Rim: munnari.oz.au

	US East Coast: ds.internic.net

	US West Coast: ftp.isi.edu

Internet-Drafts are also available by mail.

Send a message to:	mailserv at ds.internic.net.  In the body type:
	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt".

NOTE:	The mail server at ds.internic.net can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
	how to manipulate these messages.


Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.

Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:	<19971117171828.I-D at ietf.org>

[This attachment must be fetched by mail.
Open the stationery below and send the resulting
message to get the attachment.]

Content-Type: Message/External-body;
	name="draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt";
	site="ds.internic.net";
	access-type="anon-ftp";
	directory="internet-drafts"

[This attachment must be fetched by ftp.
 Open the document below to ask your ftp client to fetch it.]

Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:	<19971117171828.I-D at ietf.org>

--- end forwarded text



%Get_I-D_ACTION-draft-ietf-openp
Get_I-D_ACTION-draft-ietf-openp
draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
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From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 14:04:36 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:04:36 +0800
Subject: Factor a 2048-bit number
Message-ID: <199711182155.PAA01654@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"I know it is wet
And the sun is not sunny.
But we can have
Lots of good fun that is funny!"

This number is the product of two large primes:
26033143779667200325575872888095239079246638261715251025882778261061527750754689886186634470393458067971467246298195626814707422649006575326598789422416672513841540101436913518354325965591664197141268653142721096667415953906554803574814020439328026212412992491918134617881658357074747456933861654849832810755452195562122302074169491126905810585763470157682833868925415992684292240723488274475606146938817977205079259576892680373975171532967403598743810959007294946286128925732513282841571521786211052543209061869205522822739184472518973988412241386534914204118049999553410479040950698778437046093623423391818191485363

Yet, I believe that an enterprising individual will be able to factor it.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNHIVmpaWtjSmRH/5AQFqQQf/UmHeMd3ZFf0m4FV5mIhuQE5bpyphaPaY
D9NNcBcBWcq/8tacFPJ4RDAy6VH0mZCqZT8Nr6je2KiMbCWXB565N8oa2dExetk1
sGB+28sNbY025RhC6MAZOAMiAWf9P8OBqTQzpF1QR2GImxRPzvvpsgSNLzlSiEee
1EiLF049BWQqZvNq7M33lK3C21D3tctB3J3u5oLD+3Gqi8Z54ECreU6fBAh54dZf
GOdvVvCXwMd7+etz2S0zNCFxidSOc/8Dpoj70CPd8tUN2MzMd74eipz0Su7lxtlo
E5cC76+KZQY4rd1KlyAqfypxFpBEZwZ3i2HOeT/XhCWC8HtaRx/jaw==
=Q7FZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 14:10:33 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:10:33 +0800
Subject: Fairy Gold
Message-ID: <199711182201.QAA03854@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.

I do not believe this to be true.  Of course, concepts are valid
regardless of their source.  It would be unwise to take the statements
even of established identities on faith.

The advantage of persistent identity is that it allows the exploration
of more complicated ideas.  Use of the persistent identity places a
particular post in a greater context.

There is only so much that can be done in a single post.  It is the
mailing list equivalent of a sound bite.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNHIGJJaWtjSmRH/5AQEjKQf+MpQ1c+5AgYYynh9bLJi0cmk7Q1+kWdH5
qPbLwvqlnq4LfIjOv9zgcmtjjfu3JL5UVSeUB6W0LDO0t0fwAEvm5SfeLWDAyC62
BfVf+pcNXV15nnkB8j3g9czUdLc5cn+0kYr42VK7G24t4aQyDZo8Je3KkvhWkRKN
EUkZBCOMsTbBZClA7Q1DXMJyn4leTjdINm7XR9WobuiWPb1BrUmOSv+Jq1smUtcX
QzrY1fRQAVCgO3oBbmE5SG2Hs7ycQ66o3krujzhv2W6KZDlfdXg7jO7Ia62opQ/W
cAsWgbZ6bI+FWAcCXUqsvFwL+fCp/cSFcMjn/dgw2ssEAw46TRcn8g==
=+mae
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 18 14:21:48 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:21:48 +0800
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118140330.17258F-100000@well.com>





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:37:04 -0500
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg at epic.org>
To: rotenberg at epic.org
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800


Today the FBI ended the TWA Flight 800 criminal probe. The FBI's
lead investigator James Kallstrom said that the FBI found
"absolutely no evidence" that the tragedy was the result of
a criminal act.

But what was the FBI telling Congress after the incident
occurred? The following expert from CNN is worth saving.
Keep in mind that the FBI Director was simultaneously
lobbying the Judiciary Committee for expanded wiretap
authority.

Marc.


>From the CNN, July 20, 1996
[http://cnn.com/US/9607/20/twa.crash.probe/index.html]

U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, who was among members of Congress briefed
Friday by FBI Director Louis Freeh, said it looked "pretty darn conclusive"
that
either a bomb or a missile caused the explosion.

"We're looking at a criminal act," Hatch said. "We're looking at somebody who
either put a bomb on it or shot a missile, a surface-to-air missile."

Hatch, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, told CNN he came to his conclusions
after "various conversations" with government officials.

"I won't go so far as to say it was terrorism, but there was sabotage
here," Hatch
said. "It looks like that."

"It's very -- almost 100 percent unlikely -- that this was a mechanical
failure," he
said. "It looks pretty darn conclusive that it was an explosion caused either
internally or externally that was caused by a criminal act."

 * * *









From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Nov 18 14:22:49 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:22:49 +0800
Subject: Ryan's eternity DDS (Re: technical issues of the list)
In-Reply-To: <199711181854.NAA08249@tana.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199711182158.VAA01101@server.test.net>




Ryan Lackey <rdl at mit.edu> writes:
> I'm pretty sure all 5 years fit on one cd-rom -- I've been using 4
> years as an eternity dds dataset, along with some other stuff, and I
> think it is less than 500mb, although one of the problems with my
> current eternity file system under linux is that there is no way of
> telling how big a directory is (yay VFS kludges).

Sounds like you are building a file system interface to a distributed
data store, cool.  Want to give us a brief description of what it does?
I know I'd be interested, I'm sure others would too.

Adam






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 14:26:34 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:26:34 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <abb1add8bd15a907a1704e6641aa7854@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118100847.006d70e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 06:44 AM 11/18/1997 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>Bill Stewart writes:
[...]
>>         For example, a commercial purpose includes the use of the 
>>         application within a commercial business or facility or 
>>         the use of the product to provide a service, or in support 
>>         of service, for which you charge. 
>>         Commercial purpose also includes use by any government agency
>>         or organization. 
>> First of all, it sounds like it can only be used by students at
>> non-government-run universities, but not at Berkeley, and if
>> Random MIT Student develops PGPwidget using the toolkit,
>> students at U.C.Berkeley can't use it for academic use either,
>> except perhaps on their PCs at home (if they live off-campus.)
>> (Do any of the UK universities count as non-government-run?)
>
>You consider use by students at U.C.Berkeley to be use by a "government
>agency or organization".  I don't think that is what is meant.  They mean
>something like the NSA, or Congress, or the military.

That may not be what they _intended_, but it's what they said..  
They're very explicit that using "within a commercial business or facility"  
is commercial, and they're including government agencies and organizations.
That means if you're using it in a government-owned building,
it's commercial from their license's standpoint.

>> But "within a commercial business or facility" is far more 
>> restrictive.  
>
>"Within" is probably meant in the organizational sense, not in terms of
>physical inclusion.  The fundamental point is whether revenue generation

If they hadn't explicitly said "facility", that might be a reasonable
interpretation, but they've provided carefully crafted language 
that's pinning down a very broad definition of commercial.

>You can't use it to do your work.  Your company should buy a copy in
>that case.  Reading your work email counts as part of doing your work.

If they want to go that direction, well, it's their code (mostly.)
But it's a much different direction from the previous policies.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 18 14:39:36 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:39:36 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>



[Forwarded with permission, first few grafs deleted by request. --Declan]

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Margarita Lacabe <marga at derechos.org>
Subject: UN Conference

[The lineup from the conference]

-Debra Guzman, a long-time american human rights activist, gave a general
appreciation of hate sites online. She said that it was very difficult to
find them and unlikely that one would stumble on them.

-Teresa Peters, another american from the Organisation for Economic
Co-Operation and Development Information Computer and
Communications Policy Committee talked about a study that her organization
had made about regulating speech on the internet, and about the problems
this lead to. I think the study is not public, and she did not go much
beyond what the study concluded. I didn't take good notes on her speech,
however :-(

-Philip Reitinger, a prosecutor with the US DOJ, summarize US free speech
legislation and made clear that hate web sites are protected under US law.
He also addressed the likely constitutional protections of anonimity, but
left open the question of whether the US could cooperate with other
countries in investigating people who violate speech laws abroad.

-Timothy Jenkins, who as far as I can tell is mostly a consultant and
someone who is trying to get the black leadership interested in the
internet, talked about how the real problem here was that internet access
is disproportionatelly held by white (males?) in the US and Europe, and
how the lack of access to computers might be a form of racial
discrimination. He did not agree with censorship of web sites BUT he
introduced the issue of anonimity, being for restricting anonimity so as
to be able to tell who the authors of racist speech were (this was
followed by a strong denunciation by the US delegate and yours truely)

-ERic Lee, from the  Commercial Internet eXchange, an association of ISPs
talked about why ISPs shouldn't be held responsible for content and also
gave a good explanation of how the internet works.

-Agha Shahi, a member of the  Committee on the Elimination of Racial
Discrimination, gave a forceful opinion on how the Convention applies
online and how countries must criminalize hate speech online.

-Rudiger Dossow, from the Council of Europe, talked about what the Council
has been thinking about the issue and warned about potential pitfalls.

-Maya Sooka, from Sangonet in SA, questioned the code of conduct idea that
had been proposed several times

- Anthony M. Rutkowski, now from Magic, talked about how the internet
works, how impossible it is to regulate it, and how it should not be
regulated differently from other media.

At some point there was a presentation by the Simon Wiesenthal center on
hate sites online, and another by the ITU, which I did not quite
understand, about how hundreds of satellites are being launched.

In addition to the experts, the conference had representatives from some
UN and Int'l bodies, including the department of public information, the
OHCHR, the ITU, the Internet Society and others who remained mostly
silent. There were representatives from several countries, including the
US, Sweeden, Germany, France and Cuba. Most representatives were embassy
people, but those from Sweeden, france and germany were from different
ministries in their countries. These three representatives who were among
the most vocal in the conference seemed to be the only ones who were
actually aware of the legal issues concerned, as well as to what the
internet is :-)  The NGOs were badly represented, there was no one from
the groups that watch hate speech online (except for the brief appearance
of the guy from the simon Wiesenthal center). In addition to the three of
us, article 19 - the free speech organization - in England was
represented, there was a guy from the World Jewish Conference who was
there half the time, a couple of people from this organization for adult
education, a professor from the Universtiy of Geneva who spoke a few
times, and some assorted people from Geneva based groups who were mostly
silent.  There was also a guy from Indigienous World Association who
missunderstood pretty much everything said, but was very passionate.

(to be continued)

Margarita Lacabe - Derechos - marga at derechos.org - http://www.derechos.org
____________________________________________________________________________

        The governors as well as the governed are bound by the law and
    by the established system of making, changing and interpreting the law
                             AKA The Rule of Law







From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 18 14:53:14 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:53:14 +0800
Subject: Text of U.N. presentation: demands for Net-censorship
Message-ID: <v0300780ab097c87b9ad2@[168.161.105.216]>



Attached below is a presentation given at the November 10-14 United Nations
summit on the Internet and "hate speech." Note what the speaker wants the
U.N. to do:

>a) shall declare an offence punishable by law all
>dissemination of ideas based on racial superiority or
>hatred, incitement to racial discrimination, as well
>as all acts of violence or incitement to such acts
>against any race or group of persons of another colour
>or ethnic origin, and also the provision of any
>assistance to racist activities, including the
>financing thereof;
>
>b) shall declare illegal and prohibit organizations,
>and also all other propaganda activities which promote
>and incite racial discrimination and

-Declan

---

IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PROGRAMME OF ACTION FOR THE
THIRD DECADE TO COMBAT RACISM AND RACIAL
DISCRIMINATION

Seminar on the role of Internet with regard to the
provisions of the International Convention on the
Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

Geneva, 10-14 November 1997

Item V: Prohibition of Racist Propaganda on the
Internet:  Juridical Aspects,
              International Measures

Note: The opinions expressed in this paper are those
of the author and are not necessarily shared by the
OHCHR.



Mr. Agha Shahi, Member of the Commitee on the
Elimination of Racial Discrimination

The International Community is increasingly concerned
that new technological developments in the sphere of
communications and in particular computer networks
such as the Internet, are being exploited to
disseminate racist propaganda through out the world.
It is therefore necessary to assess the role of the
Internet in spreading ideas of racial superiority and
hatred through a wide variety of electronic
communication and information retrieval methods, known
as cyberspace and to explore from the juridical aspect
what international measures can be taken to ensure a
responsible use of the new medium, taking into account
the provisions of the International Convention on the
Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination
(ICERD)

The International Convention which has been ratified
or acceded to by 148 States, is the international
community's primary legal instrument for combating
racial hatred and discrimination. In Article 4 of this
Convention:

"State Parties ... undertake to adopt immediate and
positive measures designed to eradicate:

all incitement to, or acts of, (racial) discrimination
and, to this end, with due regard to the principles
embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
and the rights expressly set forth in article 5 of
this Convention, interalia:

a) shall declare an offence punishable by law all
dissemination of ideas based on racial superiority or
hatred, incitement to racial discrimination, as well
as all acts of violence or incitement to such acts
against any race or group of persons of another colour
or ethnic origin, and also the provision of any
assistance to racist activities, including the
financing thereof;

b) shall declare illegal and prohibit organizations,
and also all other propaganda activities which promote
and incite racial discrimination and

shall recognise participation in such organizations
and activities as an offence punishable by law;

c) shall not permit public authorities or public
institutions, national or local to promote or incite
racial discrimination".

Article 1, paragraph 1 of ICERD defines "racial
discrimination" as:

"... any distinction, exclusion, restriction or
preference based on race, colour, descent, or national
or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of
nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or
exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and
fundamental freedoms in the political, economic,
social, cultural or any other field of public life."


Article 6 of the International Convention provides for
remedies against acts of racial discriminations as
well as just and adequate reparation or satisfaction
for any damage suffered as a result of the violation
of Article 4 and the human rights expressly set forth
in Article 5 of the Convention.

In its General Recommendation XV (42) of 17 March
1993, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial
Discrimination (CERD) reminded the States Parties that
Article 4 is of a mandatory nature and that they have
the obligation not only to enact laws to criminalise
racial discrimination but also to ensure that the laws
are effectively enforced by national tribunals and
other state institutions.

Article 4 aims at prevention rather than cure; the law
penalises in order to deter racism or racial
discrimination as well as activities aimed at their
promotion or incitement. In respect of Article 4(b),
CERD stresses that States Parties are required to
declare illegal and prohibit all organisations as well
as organised and other propaganda activities and
punish participation in them and that 4(c) outlines
the obligations of public authorities at all
administrative levels, to ensure that they do not
promote or incite racial discrimination.

The introductory clause to Article 4 of International
Convention imposes an obligation to pay due regard to
the principles embodied in the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights (UDHR) and the rights expressly set
forth in Article 5 of the Convention including the
criminalisation and punishment of:

"All dissemination of ideas based on racial
superiority or hatred"... (as well as)
"Organisations", and also all other propaganda
activities which promote and incite racial
discrimination and (also) participation in such
organisations and activities".

Article 5(d)(viii) and (ix) of the Convention do not
spell out the right to freedom of opinion and
expression nor the right to freedom of peaceful
assembly and association. The Universal Declaration
defines these rights in its Articles 19 and 20:

Article 19

"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and
expression; this right includes freedom to hold
opinions without interference and to seek, receive and
impart information and ideas through any media and
regardless of frontiers".

Article 20

"1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful
assembly and association.

2. No one may be compelled to belong to an
association".

Article 29 of the Universal Declaration limits the
rights to freedom of opinion and expression and to
peaceful assembly and association as follows:

Article 29

Paragraph 2:

"In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone
shall be subject only to such limitations as are
determined by law solely for the purpose of securing
due recognition and respect for the rights and
freedoms of others and of meeting the just
requirements of morality, public order and the general
welfare in a democratic society."

Paragraph 3:

"These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised
contrary to the purposes and principles of the United
nations".

There is a further lmitation in the Universal
Declaration:

Article 30:

"Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as
implying for any State, group or person any right to
engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at
the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set
forth herein".

Under Article 4 of ICERD, "due regard" to the rights
to freedom of expression and freedom of peaceful
assembly and association must also take into account
the limitation put on the exercise of these rights as
set forth in Articles 29 and 30 of UDHR. Therefore,
the "due regard" clause cannot be interpreted as
reducing to ineffectiveness, the mandatory force of
ICERD's Article 4(a) and (b). Dissemination of ideas
of racist superiority or the prohibition of
organisations and propaganda activities which promote
and incite racial discrimination are also contrary to
one of the purposes of the United Nations which is, in
the words of Article 1 paragraph 3 of the UN Charter
"to promote and encourage respect for human rights and
fundamental freedom for all without distinction as to
race, sex, language or religion and also to Article 55
of the Charter which enjoins respect for and
observance of these rights and freedoms.

In Article 4 of the International Convention, the "due
regard" clause makes no reference to the provisions of
the International Covenant on Civil and Political
Rights (ICCPR), as the latter was adopted by the UN
General Assembly one year after the former. The
Covenant which is an international treaty, translates
into precise rules of international law, the
principles of the Universal Declaration which do not
constitute a legally binding text though arguably,
because of the Declaration's universal acceptance, it
is claimed to have the force of customary
international law.

The following Articles of the ICCPR spell out the
right of freedom of opinion and expression and the
permissible limitations on the exercise of this right:

Article 19 (ICCPR)

1. Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions
without interference.

2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of
expression; this shall include freedom to seek,
receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds,
regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or
in print, in the form of art, or through any other
media of his choice.

3. The exercise of the rights provided for in
paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special
duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be
subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only
be such as are provided by law and are necessary:

(a) for respect of the rights or reputations of
others;

(b) for the protection of national security or of
public order (ordre public), or of public health or
morals.

Article 20 (ICCPR) constitutes a further limitation of
the foregoing Article 19. It reads:

1. Any propaganda for war (war of aggression) shall be
prohibited by law.

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious
hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination,
hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.

The question arises whether under Article 20 (2) and
law enacted should not be restricted to protection of
national security, or of public order or public health
or morals as in Article 19 (3) (though the two
articles stand apart) by projecting into Article 20
(2) "due regard" for freedom of expression,
particularly in view of Article 5 paragraph 1 of the
Covenant that:

"no state, group or person has the right to engage in
any activity aimed at the destruction of any of the
rights and freedoms recognised herein (including
freedom of expression) or their limitation to a
greater extent than is provided for in the Covenant".

There are also corresponding provisions in ICCPR
Article 21 on the right of peaceful assembly and
limitations thereon to UDHR Article 20 on the right to
freedom of peaceful assembly and association, as well
as in regard to the limitations that are permissible
in the two instruments on grounds of recognition and
respect for the rights and freedoms of others and
requirements of morality, public order and the general
welfare in a democratic society...

Reservations to or declarations of interpretation of
Article 4 of ICERD have been made by some sixteen
State Parties including the United Kingdom, France,
Germany, Austria, Italy and Switzerland and some
others. They have stated that legislative measures in
the fields covered in subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c)
of that article are to be adopted only with "due
regard" to freedom of opinion and expression and
freedom of peaceful assembly and association and to
attain the end specified in the earlier part of
Article 4. But these reservations fail to pay due
regard to the limitations on the rights to the
freedoms of expression and association in the
Universal Declaration and the International Covenant
themselves. As for the declarations of interpretation
of these States Parties, they

"do not constitute reservations and have no legal
effect on the obligations under ICERD of the States
that make them" (HR Geneva/1996/SEM 1/BP2 by Luis
Valencia Rodriguez, Member CERD)

The United States has made more far-reaching
reservations -- that "nothing in the Convention
(ICERD) shall be deemed to require or authorise
legislation or other action by the United States of
America incompatible with the Constitution of the
United States of America", i.e. incompatible with the
extensive protections of individual freedom of speech,
expression and association.

The Human Rights Committee, which has built up an
impressive body of jurisprudence through
interpretation of the provisions of ICCPR, has held
that proscription of racist speech to be an
appropriate and legitimate restriction. It holds that
Article 19 which protects freedom of speech needs to
be interpreted in the light of Article 20 (in JRT and
WG Party V Canada DOC A/38/40 at 231--Paper presented
by Australia to UN Seminar 9-13 September 1996, Geneva
on Racist propaganda through Computer and Electronic
Network). This working paper concludes:

"It should be noted that it is only in the United
States, with its quasi-absolutist conception of
freedom of speech, that the regulation of racist
speech is held to violate the constitutional right of
free speech. Free speech is a constitutional right in
Canada and many European countries. Yet the highest
courts in these countries have held that provisions
which prohibit racial incitement and the dissemination
of racist ideas are reasonable and necessary
exceptions to the right of free speech. In 1989, for
instance, the Canadian Supreme Court upheld Canada's
anti-hate speech legislation. Interpretation of
freedom of expression involves resort to the values
and principles of a free and democratic society".

This conclusion is in line with the view of the
Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination
(CERD) as well as the generality among the State
Parties that the right to freedom of expression is not
absolute but subject to certain limitations (in UDHR
and ICCPR), that these limitations lie in the balance
to be struck between the obligations deriving from
Article 4 of the International Convention (ICERD) and
the protection of these fundamental freedoms. CERD has
consistently rejected any construction of "due regard"
for freedom of expression as neutralising the
obligation to prohibit and punish dissemination of
ideas based on racial superiority or hatred or
incitement to racial discrimination or acts of
violence.

It is clear that from the juridical point of view, the
provisions of Article 4(a) and (b) of ICERD are
mandatory rules of internationl law that call for
enforcement through competent international tribunals
and other state institutions as laid down in Article 6
of ICERD. "Due regard" for the rights to freedom of
expression or to freedom of peaceful assembly and
association cannot be so construed as to justify
failure to prohibit or punish over the Internet
dissemination of ideas of racial superiority or hatred
and all other propaganda activities which promote and
incite racial discrimination or recognise
participation in organisations carrying out such
activities as an offence punishable by law.

INTERNET AND RACIST PROPAGANDA

"The Internet is an international network of
interconnected computers that enables millions of
people to communicate with one another in cyberspace
and to access vast amounts of information around the
world... It is a unique and wholly new medium of
worldwide human communication.

So declared the US Supreme Court in its judgement of
26 June 1997 in Reno, Attorney General of the United
States et al v American Civil Liberties Union (See US
Supreme Court Syllabus) ruling indecent transmission
(pornography) on the Internet as unconstitutional on
the ground that it abridged freedom of speech
protected by the First Amendment. The Supreme Court
estimated that the "host" computers -- those that
store information and relay communications, to number
9,400,000, roughly 60% of these hosts being located in
the United States. It is estimated that about 40
million people use the Internet and that this number
is expected to grow exponentially to 200 million by
1999.

The Supreme Court judgement provides other valuable
information about the Internet which is summarised
below:

Individuals can obtain access to the Internet from
many different sources, generally the hosts themselves
or entitles with a host affiliation. Most colleges and
universities provide access to their students and
faculty and many corporations to their employees. Many
communities and local libraries provide free access.

Several major on-line services such as America
on-line. Compuserve, the Microsoft, Network and
Prodigy offer access to their own proprietary networks
as well as a link to the much larger resources of the
Internet. These commercial on-line services had by the
middle of 1996 almost 12 million consumers.

Anyone with access to the internet can communicate and
retrieve information through electronic mail (E-mail)
automatic mailing list services ("mail exploders" or
listservs"), "newsgroups", "chat rooms" and "World
Wide Web". All of these methods can be used to
transmit text; most can transmit sound, pictures and
moving video images. Taken together these tools
constitute a unique medium known to users as
cyberspace--located in no particular geographical
location, but available to anyone, anywhere in the
world with access to the Internet.

The World Wide Web is the best known category of
communication over the Internet. It allows users to
search for and retrieve information stored in remote
computers, as well as to communicate back, in some
cases, to designated sites. In concrete terms, the Web
consists of a vast number of documents stored in
different computers all over the world. Elaborate
documents known as web pages have their own addresses
which frequently contain information and allow the
viewer to communicate with the page's (or the site's)
author.

Any person or organisation with a computer connected
to the Internet can publish information and make it
available to all other Internet users or confine
access to a selected group.

No single organisation controls any membership in the
Web nor is there any centralised point from which
individual Web sites or services can be blocked from
the Web.

Unlike communications received by radio or television,
receipt of information from the Internet requires a
series of more deliberate and directed steps than
merely turning a dial.

According to the Tel Aviv University paper (HR Geneva
A/1996/SEM1) Anti-semitism on the Internet:

the most widely used systems for the dissemination of
anti-semitism over the Internet today are the World
Wide Web and Usenet, with lesser use of mailing lists,
FTP and Gopher.

World Wide Web

The World Wide Web (WWW) is a global information
system made up of a body of software and a set of
protocols and conventions which uses hypertext and
multimedia techniques to provide easy access to
information through the Internet. The programs for
accessing and viewing information in WWW are called
"browsers". The most popular WWW browser today is
Netscape Navigator. Using a browser, one can access
information specially prepared for WWW using the Hyper
Text Transfer Protocol (HTTP), as well as other
systems such as FTP, Gopher and Usenet news. WWW
browsers use an addressing system called Uniform
Resources Locators (URL) to request information.

Thus, if one encounters offensive material in WWW,
there is an address for complaints.

USENET

Usenet is a worldwide distributed discussion system.
It consists of a set of "newsgroups" with names that
are classified by subject. There are thousands of
newsgroups covering a very wide range of topics.

Thus, it is often impossible to determine the true
identity of the sender of a Usenet article. Moreover,
one can make it appear that the message actually came
from someone else.

Electronic mailing lists are also used. And there is
the E-mail for person to person private communication,
which can be made more secure by encryption.

Racist organisations, neo-Nazis and hate groups have
established propaganda sites on the World Wide Web
(WWW) - Working Papers (HR Geneva/1996 SEM 1 WP2 and
WP3) prepared by the Anti-Defamation League of the
United States, provide a survey of extremist material
on WWW which sows racial hatred against Jews, blacks,
Asians, Latin Americans and foreigners, proclaims
white supremacy, and spreads propaganda to justify
racial separatism and even an apocalyptic race war
waged with weapons of mass destruction.

Article 4 of ICERD is as much applicable to the
dissemination on the Internet of ideas of racial
superiority or hatred and other racist propaganda as
it is to such offences and illegal acts in the press,
radio, television or any other media.

While an opinion on racial supremacy held by an
individual or a group may be an absolute right, once
such an opinion is broadcast, , it become an act or
behaviour. This behaviour transgresses, just as an act
of racial discrimination does, national as well as
international law which call for legal penalties. Most
State Parties take this position. The case of the
United States is sui generis because of the First
Amendment which guarantees virtually absolute freedom
of speech.

"Chat room" talk on the Internet by persons holding
racist convictions could well lead to advocacy of
ideas of white racist supremacy. Participation in such
gatherings could thus be deemed culpable under Article
4(b) of ICERD.

The enforcement of the provisions of Article 4 and
Article 6 to assure remedies to, and

reparation for any damage suffered by, a victim of
racist propaganda or racial discrimination on the
Internet however present some technical problems.

Internet telecommunication though not as invasive as
radio or television as it does not appear on one's
computer screen unbidden, has today over a 100 million
users worldwide and this figure is growing
exponentially.

Internet has no sender who distributes offensive
material to specific recipients. It allows the
speakers and listeners to mask their identities.

In the United States, anti-semitic and racist speech
on the Internet is protected by the First Amendment
guarantee of freedom of expression. Consequently,
material that is treated as illegal in most other
democracies outside the US, including racist and
defamatory statements, will be presented on the
Internet (via US postings) and as a result, would be
accessible to virtually everyone around the globe,
regardless of existing local laws and mores. (HR
Geneva/1996/SEM1 p.6 Background paper 3 of Simon
Wiesental Centre).

As the Supreme Court judgement referred to above says,
while the "chat rooms" and Web Sites for example,
exist at fixed geographical locations on the Internet,
users can transmit and receive messages on it without
revealing anything about their identities.
Abbreviations that make up an Internet address might
be a deception.

To what extent can democratic governments regulate the
material that passes through the Net? The Internet
providers, can, if they wish, refuse service. They can
also screen content appropriately with the aid of
technologies that are evolving rapidly. The Economist
in its issue of October 19th, 1996 (page 15) states:

"Governments need to force Internet service providers,
many of which will in future be big telephone
companies, to take responsibility for what they
knowingly carry on their sites".

This in no way implies that racist talk should not
also be dealt with by monitoring and refutation.
Furthermore, all Internet traffic should be compelled
to make known its electronic signature and source
address on all messages so that it could not longer
enjoy impunity.

To draw a dividing line between what is to be
permitted and prohibited on the Internet, the relevant
provisions of the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, but also those of the International Convenant
on Civil and Political Rights as well as the
International Convention on the Elimination of All
Forms of Racial Discrimination, in particular Article
4, must also be taken into account.


###







From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 18 14:54:29 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:54:29 +0800
Subject: EC to require "voluntary" tagging of harmful materials
Message-ID: <v0300780bb097c996dd41@[168.161.105.216]>



[Is it just me or have a bunch of international bureaucrats suddenly
decided they really, really want to regulate the Net? Of course this has
been in the works for some time. Reference:
http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Declan_McCullagh/iu.plague.073196.article --
Declan]

********

BRUSSELS (November 17, 1997 1:53 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - The
European Commission is set to suggest guidelines on
Tuesday for codes of conduct aimed at protecting children from harmful
material on the Internet or other online networks.

The codes would be drawn up by service providers themselves in each of the
15 European Union countries, reflecting the
Commission's preference for self-regulation in the sensitive area of
Internet content.

Reluctant to propose new legislation to rein in the global computer
network, the Commission says in a draft report that the EU
must respect the "fundamental democratic principles of freedom of
expression and respect for privacy."

The report, expected to be adopted at the Commission's weekly meeting in
Strasbourg, proposes that EU ministers adopt a
recommendation asking governments and industry players to cooperate to keep
sexually explicit and other harmful online
material away from children.

The central plank of the recommendation, parts of which would cover the
television industry as well, is a network of voluntary
codes of conduct.

The report, a copy of which was obtained by Reuters, says the codes should
ensure that legal but potentially harmful online
material is flagged in some way -- for example, through warning pages,
descriptive labelling or systems to check ages of users.

Parents and teachers should when possible also be given tools to filter out
unwanted content so that children can use computer
networks without supervision, it says.

Users could install filter software themselves or operators could limit
access to certain sites, the proposal says.

The codes should also set up "hotlines" for handling complaints about
illegal content that is "offensive to human dignity," as well
as rules for cooperating with judicial and police authorities to combat the
circulation of such material, it says.

They should also introduce "dissuasive measures" for companies who violate
the codes, with appeal and mediation procedures
available.

The report asks the broadcast industry to experiment with new means of
protecting minors and informing viewers, although it
gives no specific suggestions. It also asks each country to set up a
national body able to share information with its EU
counterparts.

The United States is also searching for ways to shield children from
harmful Internet material after the Supreme Court in June
struck down parts of a law banning indecent material as unconstitutional.







From lizard at mrlizard.com  Tue Nov 18 14:55:44 1997
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:55:44 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971118143504.00dd5d90@dnai.com>



At 05:22 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[Forwarded with permission, first few grafs deleted by request. --Declan]
>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:22 -0800 (PST)
>From: Margarita Lacabe <marga at derechos.org>
>Subject: UN Conference
>
<Much deleted>
> There was also a guy from Indigienous World Association who
>missunderstood pretty much everything said, but was very passionate.

Well, if that isn't a summary of 99% of non-netizens, I don't know what is...






From pethern at inet.uni2.dk  Tue Nov 18 14:56:57 1997
From: pethern at inet.uni2.dk (Peter Herngaard)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:56:57 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9711182331.A19441-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>



Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United 
States to
set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in 
California out of reach
of German law.
Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from 
violating the speech
codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?






From pizouguo91 at shiny.it  Wed Nov 19 07:08:21 1997
From: pizouguo91 at shiny.it (Floodgate)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:08:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bulk Email For Profit
Message-ID: <199711191187JAA45583@post.silicon.net.my>



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----------------------------------------------------


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From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 18 15:11:12 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:11:12 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v0300780db097ccdea2d8@[168.161.105.216]>



My take on it is that overseas citizens have no Constitutional rights.
However ISPs in the U.S. have rights that U.S. laws recognize and protect.

If a U.S. law prevented an ISP from contracting to put a web site online,
it would be like a law that prevented a U.S. book company from publishing a
book penned by a German. Or the Netly News from publishing an article
written by our London correspondent. Such a law would be facially
unconstitutional.

Perhaps the analogy between an ISP and publisher is inexact, but that's the
type of analysis I'd pursue.

-Declan


At 23:33 +0100 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
>a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United
>States to
>set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
>For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in
>California out of reach
>of German law.
>Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from
>violating the speech
>codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?








From ben at algroup.co.uk  Tue Nov 18 15:27:37 1997
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:27:37 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711182137.IAA05520@avalon.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <34722259.CB54E462@algroup.co.uk>



Greg Rose wrote:
> Of course crypto is not currently classed as a
> weapon of mass destruction

Hmmm ... the EEC/UK regs on WMD have specific things to say about
crypto, and definitely restrict crypto export (at least in some
circumstances - naturally, the whole thing is horrifically complex and
no-one is about to explain it).

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
Ben Laurie            |Phone: +44 (181) 735 0686|Apache Group member
Freelance Consultant  |Fax:   +44 (181) 735 0689|http://www.apache.org
and Technical Director|Email: ben at algroup.co.uk |Apache-SSL author
A.L. Digital Ltd,     |http://www.algroup.co.uk/Apache-SSL
London, England.      |"Apache: TDG" http://www.ora.com/catalog/apache






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Nov 18 15:41:39 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:41:39 +0800
Subject: US Constitution & law coverage
Message-ID: <199711182341.RAA25501@einstein.ssz.com>




Section 2.  The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, 
arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties 
made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; -- to all Cases affecting 
Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; -- to all Cases of admiralty 
and maritime Jurisdiction; -- to Controversies between two or more States; -- 
between a State and Citizens of another State; -- between Citizens of 
different States; -- between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under 
Grants of different States; -- and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, 
and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. 
	In all Cases, affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and 
Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall 
have original Jurisdiction.  In all other Cases before mentioned, the supreme 
Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such 
Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. 
	The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be 
by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes 
shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial 
shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed. 

 
Section 3.  New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; 
but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any 
other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, 
or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States 
concerned as well as of the Congress. 
	The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful 
Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging 
to the United States, and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed 
as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State. 
 
 
Section 4.  The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union 
a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against 
Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when 
the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence. 
 
 
	All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the 
Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States 
under this Constitution, as under the Confederation. 
	This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall 
be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, 
under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the 
Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the 
Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. 

 
				ARTICLE XI. 
 
	The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed 
to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against 
one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens 
or Subjects of any Foreign State.  [8 January 1798.] 
 
 

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Tue Nov 18 16:11:37 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:11:37 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <25B74059.7925@gaw.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118185752.30992B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>



Why can't they have it both ways for this one particular point?

For instance, at netlynews.com, we have unmoderated bulletin board areas
and "talk about it" sections where we want our readers to be able to speak
freely -- no matter what country they're from. 

-Declan

On Fri, 19 Jan 1990, Jonathan Gaw wrote:

> I could imagine numerous scenarios where ISPs would prefer the telephone
> company analogy of being a passive carrier, as opposed to the publisher
> model. can they have it both ways?
> 
> Jonathan Gaw
> The Star Tribune
> 
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > My take on it is that overseas citizens have no Constitutional rights.
> > However ISPs in the U.S. have rights that U.S. laws recognize and protect.
> > 
> > If a U.S. law prevented an ISP from contracting to put a web site online,
> > it would be like a law that prevented a U.S. book company from publishing a
> > book penned by a German. Or the Netly News from publishing an article
> > written by our London correspondent. Such a law would be facially
> > unconstitutional.
> > 
> > Perhaps the analogy between an ISP and publisher is inexact, but that's the
> > type of analysis I'd pursue.
> > 
> > -Declan
> > 
> > At 23:33 +0100 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
> > >Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
> > >a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United
> > >States to
> > >set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
> > >For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in
> > >California out of reach
> > >of German law.
> > >Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from
> > >violating the speech
> > >codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?
> 
> ------------------------------------------------ 
> Jonathan Gaw
> The Star Tribune
> 612-673-4237 (voice)
> jgaw at startribune.com (e-mail)
> 425 Portland Avenue, Minneapolis, MN 55488 
> http://www.startribune.com/etherblot
> ----- Wasting Digital Bandwidth Since 1986 -----
> 






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Tue Nov 18 16:14:50 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:14:50 +0800
Subject: Dr Doobs'CD (was Re: technical issues of the list)
Message-ID: <199711182353.PAA21109@sirius.infonex.com>




>> up on the web, ready for people to mirror.  Dr. Dobbs' Journal sells
>> a Cryptography CD-ROM with AC v 2, etc. on it for $99, and combined with
>
>Has anyone actually received this yet?  I ordered mine in August, and I 

I called a couple of days ago. they said it should be shipped within
2 weeks...






From jaed at best.com  Tue Nov 18 16:29:22 1997
From: jaed at best.com (Jeanne A. E. DeVoto)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:29:22 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03007806b097e05a05ca@[206.163.125.122]>



At 8:29 AM -0800 1/19/90, Jonathan Gaw wrote:
>I could imagine numerous scenarios where ISPs would prefer the telephone
>company analogy of being a passive carrier, as opposed to the publisher
>model. can they have it both ways?

Bookstores. See *Cubby vs. CompuServe*.

--
Morning people may be respected, but night people are feared.







From joswald at rpkusa.com  Tue Nov 18 16:46:24 1997
From: joswald at rpkusa.com (Jack Oswald)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:46:24 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
Message-ID: <01BCF43F.82159220@joswald@rpkusa.com>



I am also aware of a company called VASCO that bought a crypto chip maker in Belgium which was apparently OK too.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From:	Jyri Kaljundi [SMTP:jk at stallion.ee]
Sent:	Tuesday, November 18, 1997 4:45 AM
To:	cypherpunks at toad.com; cryptography at c2.net
Subject:	export restictions and investments


How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest money
into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
Europe? 

Since Sun bought the Russian Elvis+ company it seems to be Ok, just wanted
to check if there are any other opinions. Does anyone know of any other
non-US companies that have received US investments, or venture capital or
whatever?

Jyri Kaljundi
jk at stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/






From aleph at cco.caltech.edu  Tue Nov 18 16:50:10 1997
From: aleph at cco.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:50:10 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9711182331.A19441-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118163834.00ca77e0@pop-server.caltech.edu>



At 05:59 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>My take on it is that overseas citizens have no Constitutional rights.
>However ISPs in the U.S. have rights that U.S. laws recognize and protect.
>
Actually I seem to remember that U.S. citizens have full constitutional
protection (only from the U.S. government of course) no matter where they
reside, non-citizens have full protection within the borders of the U.S.,
and non-citizens have partial protection outside the borders of the U.S.  I
don't remember how much is covered by the last though.  

>If a U.S. law prevented an ISP from contracting to put a web site online,
>it would be like a law that prevented a U.S. book company from publishing a
>book penned by a German. Or the Netly News from publishing an article
>written by our London correspondent. Such a law would be facially
>unconstitutional.
>
>Perhaps the analogy between an ISP and publisher is inexact, but that's the
>type of analysis I'd pursue.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>At 23:33 +0100 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
>>a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United
>>States to
>>set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
>>For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in
>>California out of reach
>>of German law.
>>Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from
>>violating the speech
>>codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?
>
>
>
>
>


                             -Colin






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 18 16:54:39 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:54:39 +0800
Subject: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711182014.OAA23881@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v04002704b097c16e02cc@[139.167.130.248]>



At 3:14 pm -0500 on 11/18/97, Jim Choate shows the benefits of being on the
top of a CDR address stack :-) :

> Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at best.

Nope. Check it out. As defined in any decent book of American history,
well, maybe one that hasn't been too "revised" :-),  the "Great Awakening",
which gave us most of our American-flavored religions, happened in the
early part of the 19th century, though rumblings started shortly after the
revolution.

> Is your claim that there was a
> second Great Awakending or are you saying the traditional (if you will)
> dating is incorrect?

I'm saying that I think you're confusing the Renaissance with the Great
Awakening. :-). BTW, Emerson, Dickenson, Whitman, Thureau, etc., were part
of the same ideological outpouring which, in the theological arena, was the
Great Awakening. A lot can be said for the view that this was American
Romanticism, as Chopin, Byron, the Brontes, Austen, etc., were all
happening in roughly the same couple of generations. Later, like libertines
and enthusiasts throughout history, they became extremely repressive. We
eventually came to call them Victorians. (Sound familiar, you baby boomers?)

> > that Vlad Dracul, the Impaler, was Transylvanian
>
> Actualy, to be accurate his name was Vlad Teppish. He was eventualy killed by
> his lord for carrying on excesses such as killing a woman because she let her
> husband walk around with a tattered coat. Dracul and Dracula are derived
> from dragon and imply a connection with the devil (which also derives its
> own existance from this lexical tree).

Okay. I have to go back and look now, I woudldn't be surprised if you're
right. Anyway, there were two Transylanian nobelmen, father and son, and
one, the impaler was, among other things, called Vlad, son of Dracul,
which, I think, gets you Dracula, but I'm not sure. The Teppish part sounds
like it's more right, now that you mention it. Maybe we're looking at Vlad
Dracul the father, and Vlad Tepish, Dracula, (son of Dracul)?  Oh, well, as
I said in my rant, the cost of error is bandwidth. :-). Someone here
probably has all the, um, gory details...

> > Of opinion, influence, and reputation, opinion is the most atomic. An
>opinion
> > can be safely defined as a judgement, right or wrong, based on some
>accepted,
> > or maybe just perceived, set of facts.
>
> Doesn't the use of 'perceived' imply some a priori assumptions about the
> base structure of reality and in fact imply a more atomistic issue, that
> of conceptual viability?

I don't think so, but I haven't thought about it much. I'd hate to get into
a recursive regress when a simple opinion will do. ;-).

I think a little further on you saw what I was getting at. I meant, in the
above, "most atomic", as in most atomic of the three. I would be hard
pressed to turn that into "absolute" atomism of any sort. :-).

> How does an opinion become atomistic if in order
> to express it we must invoke other equaly critical (or atomistic)
> expressions? Further, without testing a 'perceived' fact is nothing but an
> opinion.

Good question. Mostly, I was starting from small bits, opinions, and
munging them together into bigger coherent bits, influence, and then adding
persistance, reputation.

> > word about whether Socrates said the words himself. Opinion can be
>completely
> > dissociated from identity. An anonymous post on a mailing list can have an
> > opinion, and people can agree or disagree with that opinion as they see
>fit.
>
> That doesn't change the fact that the opinion, anonymous or not, originated
> from a single source.

I think I could argue for multiple simultaneous sources of the same opinion
pretty successfully. :-).

> While I can accept that testable facts can be isolated
> from source biases it escapes me how an opinion can be so isolated.

I think this sums up Socrates' "Right Opinion" statement pretty well. Have
you read Plato, by chance? ;-). Folks later called this the Mind/Body
problem. How do we know what we think in here is what we see out there,
etc. Big problem in philosophy. Science solves it to most people's
understanding of it. Or mine, anyway.

However, again, I'm just talking about opinions, and, as you've noticed,
not about truth. :-).  I said later on in the rant that when we got to
science, that that was better. With science, we got as close to "truth" as
we're ever going to get, asymptotically closer, but not to truth itself. We
gave up on Aristotle's First(?) Cause, what *is* something, because we
admitted we'll never know. But, frankly, it doesn't matter. Science gives a
way to keep getting *closer*...


>  At its
> lowest level it is nothing more than a description of an individuals
> beliefs about reality and their place in it and clearly has impact on the
> sorts of ideas that are expressible in them.

Okay...

> Perhaps opinion & fact are unwittingly being confused. Opinions tell the
> observer about the holder of the opinion, not the subject the opinion is
> direct toward.

Maybe, but remember my smart crack about hueristics. It's all we've got, in
any practical sense. We can't just go around testing every opinion we hear,
more than once, anyway, :-), and, frankly, most of us just take other
people's word for things, especially if we respect their reputation. :-).

Remember the story about Gauss, who, in the middle of some guy's
announcement that he'd discovered the normal distribution(?), said
something like, "Oh. I did that already. Years ago.", and everyone believed
Gauss, even though, I think, he never proved it? I'd bet that Gauss *did*
discover the normal distribution, but the operative function there was
Gauss's reputation/influence, because he'd been right so much before. A
hueristic: Gauss is usually right, so he must be right here, too. (An
appeal to authority, for you informal fallacy counters out there... :-).)


> > can't *prove* our opinions are right. The definition of modern human
>thinking,
> > is, however, that at the core of it all, someone, somewhere, is using
>science
> > - -- which is all about verifiable and replicable physical results -- to
> > validate, and occasionally create, the set of opinions most of us would now
> > call knowlege. So, science or no, our thinking is still functionally,
> > heuristics, but it works. Oh, well. Life is hard. :-).
>
> Science is about how to ask questions, it is NOT concerned with the results
> directly.

Well, actually, it's more about how to make replicable results, I'd say.
The "how to ask questions" might come from a theory (brought about by
observing reality with replicable results), and the creativity of the
questioner.

> Science is a non-intuitive mechanism whereby we can regulate how
> we think about the world around us.

And, my understanding is that at the core of that is the replicability of
experiment. And the predictivity of theory, of course.

> What to do with the results is engineering.

How to make the results *profitable* is what engineering is... ;-).

> Science itself is heuristic.

I'm not sure how that differs with what I'm saying, though.

>
> > I think the nice thing about science in the geodesic age, by the way,
>is that
> > the technology of microcomputers and networks makes it easier for more
>people
> > to be closer to scientific truth.
>
> There is no 'scientific truth', THE main axiom of science is that everything
> is open to review and change in responce to the observation and description
> of the item under studies interactions with the environment around it.

Woops. I used the "T" word inappropriately. Sorry. I agree with you
completely. Scientific truth is, as I've said before, a non-sequitur to the
extent that science is about how to make replicable experiments and
predictive theory. It's not "truth" at all in the Aristotelean sense.
Which, by the way, helps me out with my bit about perception and opinion,
above, I think...


> > So, what's influence? On a personal basis, influence occurs when
>someone else
> > agrees with your opinions.
>
> Only if they changed their opinions *because* of the expression of your
> opinions.

Okay...

>  Otherwise we are left with independant discovery.

Glad you figured this out, too. (see above)

>Influence is
> the ability of one theory to cause the holder of another theory to add
> data or tests that could potentialy alter the outcome of that original
> theory. The results may or may not support either of the original theories
> or could even cause a 3rd theory to be born.

Cool. I'll go for that...

> > The more people agree with your opinions, the more
> > influence you have.
>
> The more people agree with your opinions AND are willing to act on them is
> a measure of influence. Also, the fact that others may in fact be motivated
> to act because they *disagree* with you also is clearly a possibility you
> don't address.

True enough, there is such a thing as negative influence (TM) ;-). I'll
take action and opinion as part of influence for the time being.

> Never confuse popularity with influence.

Well, since I don't know how to define one in terms of the other, I won't.
How's that?

> > Back to our stack of planes, by no means does the "line" of someone's
>identity
> > have to be a straight one
>
> This runs counter to your assumption regarding the number of line-plane
> intersections. If the line is not geometricaly 'straight' it can in fact have
> zero, one, or more intersections. This causes a problem with this part of the
> conclusion, you are using the axiom as proof of the assertion (the axiom).

I don't think so. a line goes through a plane. If it doesn't intersect that
plane, it only appears on that plane at a single point. If the line's
curvy, and it goes through a bunch of other planes parallel to the first
plane, then, whether it's squiggly or not, the more planes you have data
from the better the resolution is on your picture of the line. That's the
point of the analogy, there. You can get the functional equivalence of
concordance, and thus identity from enough data. Kind of a "motherhood",
but there it is.

Besides, even though I'm talking in geometry here, it's still just a
(twisted :-)) metaphor. I said I wasn't trying for mathematical rigor,
because I don't have a mathematical handle on the problem, and probably
never will, unfortunately.

Still, I think the idea of opinion/influence/reputation/identity as linked
this way allows you to think about it better.

Or at least it helped *me* think about it better, anyway.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Nov 18 17:07:25 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:07:25 +0800
Subject: ITAR
Message-ID: <19971119010002.15815.qmail@nym.alias.net>



If someone writes a piece of software, a networking layer, or anything else
with support for later cryptographic enhancement but doesn't actually
include the cryptographic implementation and it is later added by somebody
outside of the United States does this fall under ITAR? 

In other words the original U.S. authors wrote the software with support for
crypto, function hooks, etc. They didn't include any crypto at all. Somebody
outside the United States uses these hooks and writes strong cryptography.
These modifications are kept as patches and never exported from the U.S.. Is
this allowed? What if the U.S. authors are actively collaborating with the
non-US authors?






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 17:10:35 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:10:35 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <199711190052.TAA12785@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 05:22 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> said:

>-Agha Shahi, a member of the  Committee on the Elimination of Racial
>Discrimination, gave a forceful opinion on how the Convention applies
>online and how countries must criminalize hate speech online.


Agha Shahi is a Statest Pig (As are most UN memebers).

Below is a list of who is on the Committee on the Elimination of Racial
Discrimination:

	M J Yutzis   	       *Argentina
	Hamzat Ahmadu	       *Nigeria   
	Ivan Garvalov           Bulgaria  
	Andrew Chigovera       *Zimbabwe
	Songu Shuhua           *China
	Mahmoud Aboul-Nasr     *Egypt
	Valencia Rodriguez      Ecuador 
	Michael P Banton       *UK
	Shanti Sadiq Ali       *India
	Carlos L Hevia         *Cuba 
	T Van Boven	        Netherlands
	Agha Shahi	       *Pakistan 
	E Ferrero Costa	        Peru 
	Ion Diaconu	       *Romania 
	Michael E Sherifis	Cyprus 
	Regis de Gouttes	France 
	Yuri A Rechetov	        Russian Fed. 
	Rudiger Wolfram        *Germany 
 
* Countries that have not ratified Article 14 allowing complaints from
their own citizens to the  Committee.
 
Members of the CERD Committee are elected by secret ballot from a list of
persons nominated by countries which have ratified the International
Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

NOTE: This information is a couple of years old so there may have been
recent changes to the make-up of CERD.

Would you really trust any of these countries on a "freedom of speech"
issue? These are a bunch of statist pigs from irrelevant 3rd world
countries wishing to subvert democracy and freedom through UN charters.
Notice that most of these members woun't even be bothered with the
pretence of listening to their own citizens.

The UN is a plague on humanity.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 17:14:04 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:14:04 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v0300780db097ccdea2d8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <199711190058.TAA12841@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi Dekan,

I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
of it).


In <v0300780db097ccdea2d8@[168.161.105.216]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 05:59 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> said:

>My take on it is that overseas citizens have no Constitutional rights.
>However ISPs in the U.S. have rights that U.S. laws recognize and
>protect.

>If a U.S. law prevented an ISP from contracting to put a web site online,
>it would be like a law that prevented a U.S. book company from publishing
>a book penned by a German. Or the Netly News from publishing an article
>written by our London correspondent. Such a law would be facially
>unconstitutional.

>Perhaps the analogy between an ISP and publisher is inexact, but that's
>the type of analysis I'd pursue.

>-Declan


>At 23:33 +0100 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
>>a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United
>>States to
>>set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
>>For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in
>>California out of reach
>>of German law.
>>Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from
>>violating the speech
>>codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Tue Nov 18 17:33:37 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:33:37 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711190058.TAA12841@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Hi Dekan,
> 
> I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
> protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
> against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
> provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
> rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
> of it).
> 

Interesting.  I was under the opinion that schooling and "social services"
were no more constitutional rights then, say, free food or a pot to
piss in.

Constitutional rights are contractual government guarantees to protect
well known natural rights.  (pleez send all natural rights flames straight
to /dev/null since we all know what they are and have different name for
them) 

Because of the kind of animals that we are, natural law has evolved as an
emergent philosophical model that protects the right of the individual to
do as they please and to profit from the fruits of their labors so long as
they harm no one else.  I pretty much massacred that definition, but
hey, I'm not getting payed for this.

How can we provide *services* to non-citizens and call that a right?

Who the hell pays for it?

Of course you could make the argument that involutarily providing
services even for citizens is brain damaged, but we call that socialism
and take it up to argue on some other channel than cypherpunks.

jim








From brian at smarter.than.nu  Tue Nov 18 17:38:20 1997
From: brian at smarter.than.nu (Brian W. Buchanan)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:38:20 +0800
Subject: ITAR
In-Reply-To: <19971119010002.15815.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971118172217.19078B-100000@thought.calbbs.com>



On 19 Nov 1997, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:

> 
> If someone writes a piece of software, a networking layer, or anything else
> with support for later cryptographic enhancement but doesn't actually
> include the cryptographic implementation and it is later added by somebody
> outside of the United States does this fall under ITAR? 
> 
> In other words the original U.S. authors wrote the software with support for
> crypto, function hooks, etc. They didn't include any crypto at all. Somebody
> outside the United States uses these hooks and writes strong cryptography.
> These modifications are kept as patches and never exported from the U.S.. Is
> this allowed? What if the U.S. authors are actively collaborating with the
> non-US authors?
 
I've always been told that software with function hooks for crypto was
just as unexportable as crypto itself.  This however doesn't make any
sense, because then anything with a plugin interface falls into that
category.  Hell, anything that can call external programs would qualify as
having a plugin interface, and all web browsers, mail/news readers, IRC
clients, editors, and possibly even all operating systems would fall into
that category.  Of course, this is the goobermint we're dealing with...
what did we expect but another arbitrary-arrest law.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian at smarter.than.nu

No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Nov 18 17:41:18 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:41:18 +0800
Subject: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711190143.TAA26250@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
> Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)

> 
> At 3:14 pm -0500 on 11/18/97, Jim Choate shows the benefits of being on the
> top of a CDR address stack :-) :
> 
> > Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at best.
> 
> Nope. Check it out. As defined in any decent book of American history,
> well, maybe one that hasn't been too "revised" :-),  the "Great Awakening",
> which gave us most of our American-flavored religions, happened in the
> early part of the 19th century, though rumblings started shortly after the
> revolution.

I did a little web-search (still being at work and deprived of my library)
but what I can find clearly indicates the 'Great Awakening' was fininished
by the mid to late 1750's. Most of the sources that I found from Alta Vista
give the beginning of the Great Awakening as the late 1600's to early
1700's.

While I clearly put the beginning of the movement too early (I always get
this confused with the beacon on the hill jive) all the evidence that I
can gather shows that it did *not* extend into any part of the 1800's.
As I understood the movement it didn't survive the American War of
Indipendance.

I used Alta Vista and search terms of 'great' & 'awakening'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From nobody at neva.org  Tue Nov 18 18:04:10 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:04:10 +0800
Subject: Overcoming War by Making Friends
Message-ID: <199711190155.TAA05884@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
>Monty Cantsin writes:
>>One of the things that appeals to me about the tools the cypherpunks
>>are developing is the likelihood that they will end war.  What
>>percentage of wars are instigated and organized by governments?
>>That is, how many wars can we think of in which a war originated in
>>the population of country and dragged its unwilling government into
>>the fray?  I cannot think of any.
>
>That's a good point.  Cypherpunk technologies should actually
>_reduce_ the scope of violence, killing, death.

And really, once we drop all the propaganda memes, isn't it sort of
reasonable that if people are able to talk to each other without fear
of retribution that the right things are going to happen?

>It's ironic that some of the greatest supporters of crypto privacy
>are also the ones who call for more killing, who support terrorist
>actions like the Oklahoma bombing or a nuclear massacre.  They don't
>seem to understand what this technology is all about.

Oh, but The Masters of War understand all too well what this
technology is about!

"The story is told of Sir John Hawkwood (1.) that when two mendicant
friars greeted him with the conventional 'God give you peace', he
retorted: 'God take from you your alms.'  When pressed for an
explanation, he replied: 'Why do pray to God that I should die of
hunger?  Do you not know that I live by war and that peace would undo
me?'"

1. Hawkwood was a highly successful English leader of mercenaries in
Northern Italy during the 14th century.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 18:05:29 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:05:29 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <199711190153.UAA13393@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000 at westsec.denver.ssds.com>, on
11/18/97 
   at 06:28 PM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes at ssds.com> said:

>On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> 
>> Hi Dekan,
>> 
>> I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>> protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>> against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>> provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>> rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>> of it).
>> 

>Interesting.  I was under the opinion that schooling and "social
>services" were no more constitutional rights then, say, free food or a
>pot to piss in.

>Constitutional rights are contractual government guarantees to protect
>well known natural rights.  (pleez send all natural rights flames
>straight to /dev/null since we all know what they are and have different
>name for them) 

>Because of the kind of animals that we are, natural law has evolved as an
>emergent philosophical model that protects the right of the individual to
>do as they please and to profit from the fruits of their labors so long
>as they harm no one else.  I pretty much massacred that definition, but
>hey, I'm not getting payed for this.

>How can we provide *services* to non-citizens and call that a right?

>Who the hell pays for it?

>Of course you could make the argument that involutarily providing
>services even for citizens is brain damaged, but we call that socialism
>and take it up to argue on some other channel than cypherpunks.

Oh I agree with you here that there is not constutional right to social
services. I wish I had a reference to the court decisions on this. It was
a year or two ago regarding one of the balot propositions in California
that would cut off various social services to illegal aliens. I am going
off memory here but I don't think it ever got all the way to the SC. If
anyone has a reference to this case please post. 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Tue Nov 18 18:21:08 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:21:08 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <01BCF43F.82159220@joswald@rpkusa.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120030154.10759A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Jack Oswald wrote:

> 
> I am also aware of a company called VASCO that bought a crypto chip maker in Belgium which was apparently OK too.

At this point a brief overview of modexp accelerators might be  in order:

o the Belgian chips I've seen are too slow.
o the Rainbow board is OK, but non-exportable.
o the Chrysalis PCMCIA card has the same performance as the Rainbow board
at half the price.  Also non-exportable.
o  the Ncipher SCSI based accelearator screams, but it a bit pricey.
UK product. Exportable (?) http://www.ncipher.com/
o a high-end Alpha also performs rather nicely, according to some
benchmarks Eric Young once posted.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From marshall at ibm.net  Tue Nov 18 18:37:27 1997
From: marshall at ibm.net (James F. Marshall)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:37:27 +0800
Subject: New Idea to Generate Random Numbers
Message-ID: <199711190227.CAA114150@out2.ibm.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:36:08 -0500, Edupage Editors wrote:

>RANDOMLY GROOVY
>Scientists at Silicon Graphics have taken the mesmerizing flow of the lava
>lamp to the next level of utility -- using the favorite fixtures of the '60s
>to generate truly random numbers, something computers cannot do.  The
>process involves using a digital camera to snap periodic shots of six oozing
>cylinders, combining those images with electronic noise and converting it
>into 1s and 0s, and then using the Secure Hash Algorithm from the National
>Institute of Standards and Technologies to compress and scramble the binary
>string to create a seed value for a standard random-number generator.
>(Scientific American Nov 97)

How do I implement this at home?  ;*)

- -- James F. Marshall, Esq., Pasadena, California
   Subject "JFM Public Key" for PGP Public Key

- -- OS/2 is to Windows as Stradivarius is to Yamaha

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From bomd at dev.null  Tue Nov 18 18:45:50 1997
From: bomd at dev.null (My Other Brother Dimitri)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:45:50 +0800
Subject: ObCypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <bulk.6433.19971118145804@ns.internetmedia.com>
Message-ID: <347244FC.7A31@dev.null>



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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 19:09:41 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:09:41 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <199711190258.DAA27799@basement.replay.com>



Mr. Geiger writes:

>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>of it).

But that applied to non-citizens on US soil. IIRC, it removed the 
distinction between "good aliens" (i.e., those who had green cards) and
"bad aliens" where availability of services was concerned.

I don't think non-citizens who aren't on US soil have any particular
protection under US law. They can bring a lawsuit against the US or a US
entity, but I think that's about it (cf. Jim Choate's posting of the
relevant Constitutional sections).







From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 18 19:11:53 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:11:53 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v0300780db097ccdea2d8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03007802b09803dce3d1@[168.161.105.216]>



Sorry. I was unclear. I was comparing U.S. citizens with citizens of
another country who are living in that country.

If a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. is running an ISP, I would argue from
principle that he has a right to distribute writings (I like Jeanne's
bookstore analogy) penned by citizens of another country.

-Declan

At 16:38 -0800 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:
>At 05:59 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>My take on it is that overseas citizens have no Constitutional rights.
>>However ISPs in the U.S. have rights that U.S. laws recognize and protect.
>>
>Actually I seem to remember that U.S. citizens have full constitutional
>protection (only from the U.S. government of course) no matter where they
>reside, non-citizens have full protection within the borders of the U.S.,
>and non-citizens have partial protection outside the borders of the U.S.  I
>don't remember how much is covered by the last though.
>
>>If a U.S. law prevented an ISP from contracting to put a web site online,
>>it would be like a law that prevented a U.S. book company from publishing a
>>book penned by a German. Or the Netly News from publishing an article
>>written by our London correspondent. Such a law would be facially
>>unconstitutional.
>>
>>Perhaps the analogy between an ISP and publisher is inexact, but that's the
>>type of analysis I'd pursue.
>>
>>-Declan
>>
>>
>>At 23:33 +0100 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>>Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
>>>a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United
>>>States to
>>>set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
>>>For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in
>>>California out of reach
>>>of German law.
>>>Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from
>>>violating the speech
>>>codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>                             -Colin








From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 18 19:18:08 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:18:08 +0800
Subject: [cpj:250] (fwd) I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
In-Reply-To: <9711190057.AA00121@crear_vip.nds.co.jp>
Message-ID: <34725193.529B@dev.null>



Intercepeted email:

Makoto MITSUI wrote:
> $B$O$8$a$^$7$F!";00f$H$$$$$^$9!#(J
> 
> --/ Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take at barrier-free.co.jp> /-- $B$5$s$N(J
> $B!X(J[cpj:248] (fwd) I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt$B!Y$K$D$$$F(J...
> 
>  >OpenPGP $B$N%$%s%?!<%M%C%H%I%i%U%H$,=P$?!"$H$$$&$*CN$i$;$,(J
>  >$B2s$C$F$-$^$7$?!#(J
> 
> $B$9$_$^$;$s(J(^^;
> 
> $B$I$J$?$+(J PGP $B$H(J PGP/MIME $B$H(J OpenPGP $B$N0c$$$d(J
> $B$I$N$h$&4XO"$,$"$k$N$+65$($FD:$1$J$$$G$7$g$&$+!)(J(^^;
> 
>  >$B<B:]$N%I%i%U%H$O>e5-(J ftp $B$GF~<j$G$-$^$9!#0l1~(J
>  >  http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/homes/PGPJ/
>  >
>  >$B$K$bCV$-$^$7$?!#$I$J$?$+K]Lu$7$F$$$?$@$1$k$H=u$+$k$N$G$9(J
>  >$B$,(J...$B!#(J
> 
> ('')(..)
> 
> --
>  Makoto MITSUI
>  e-mail mitsui at nds.co.jp, m-mitsui at imasy.or.jp
>  Key fingerprint = 82 CB 8D 9C A8 89 1E 53  45 51 E2 C5 DB 8A F0 4B

Translation:
Pearl Harbor Computers...Dec. 7th...Code Phrase: "Nuke Tim C. May"







From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 18 19:21:46 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:21:46 +0800
Subject: While we waste our time discussing crypto issues...
Message-ID: <3472571C.451@dev.null>



* News of the Weird reported in 1994 on the controversy over who
owned the world's largest cow hairball, but it now appears that an
also-ran at that time, Mike Canchola of Sterling, Colo., is now
number one.  In 1994 a Garden City, Kan., historical society had a
37-incher, but Canchola has since come across one measuring 43.3
inches around.  In the course of his work at a local beef plant,
Canchola plucks out the non-championship hairballs, dries them,
has colleague Frank Alcala paint faces or scenery on them, and sells
them for $50 each. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)







From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 18 19:21:53 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:21:53 +0800
Subject: But will it work for Congress?
Message-ID: <34725441.61B8@dev.null>



* The University of Minnesota was seeking more "specialists" to
work on its three-year, $390,000 program to set an "odor emissions
rating system" for regulating the state's 35,000 animal feedlots,
according to an August Minneapolis Star Tribune story.  Having
judges, or government officials, go sniff the feedlot apparently
would give insufficient due process of law; rather, a panel of
sniffers will develop objective standards on the types of odors and
their strength.  Already 35 people are employed and have begun
sniffing the nearly-200 chemical components of cow and pig
manure in order to categorize them for the formal state stench test. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)







From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 18 19:24:21 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:24:21 +0800
Subject: But, do they insure Japenese CypherPunks...?
Message-ID: <3472553F.4683@dev.null>



* In February, members of the West Palm Beach, Fla., Pit Bull
Terrier Club received notices that some insurance companies would
not renew their homeowner policies because that breed of dog was
responsible for an increasing number of liability claims.  Club officer
Linda Kender termed such insurance company stereotyping "dog
racism." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)







From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 18 19:25:15 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:25:15 +0800
Subject: Glad I could clear that up for everyone...
Message-ID: <347255D4.66F2@dev.null>



* The Dutch Federation for Military Personnel union (which 20
years ago won the right for soldiers to wear their hair long)
announced in April it would back a female recruit's desire to wear a
tongue ring.  The code of conduct, the union said, bans jewelry "on
the head," not "in the head." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)







From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 18 19:26:09 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:26:09 +0800
Subject: Password Snarfing
Message-ID: <34725680.49A1@dev.null>



* Life Imitates TV: (1) A Bangkok hotel worker was convicted in
July of stealing from guests' safe-deposit boxes by rubbing his nose
oil onto the buttons so he could check later to see which buttons
had been pushed by the guest to open the safe.  He said he learned
the trick from watching the TV show "MacGyver."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)







From schear at lvdi.net  Tue Nov 18 19:27:45 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:27:45 +0800
Subject: Flight 007 and our Civil Liberties
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09795d84b18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0980428d66c@[208.129.55.202]>



>The FBI has just completed a long press conference in which it reported its
>"no terrorist activity suspected" conclusions. Having watched most of it,
>and having seen the CIA animation shown at the press conference, I agree
>with their conclusions.
>
>(Cypherpunks arch-enemy James Kallstrom, Assistant Director of the FBI,
>nevertheless did a fine job,  both in the investigation and in the
>reporting. Credit where credit is due.)
>
>However, now that the Flight 007 explosion has been ruled a non-terrorist
>event, will we get our freedoms back?
>
>The other big "terrorist event" of that summer of 1996 was the bomb in a
>crowd at the Summer Olympic Games in Atlanta. The "fits the profile" perp,
>Richard Jewell, was finally cleared of all charges.
>
>So, these were the two big events which stimulated the FAA, under higher
>orders, to require mandatory ID of all travelling passengers. And more
>multimillion dollar sniffers to be installed in airports.
>
>It seems that each such event ratchets down certain civil liberties, and
>even the later repudiation of terrorists and other Horsemen in these events
>never results in the liberties coming back....

Actually, even when their knee-jerk security measures are relaxed it isn't publicized, probably for concern it might encourage would be mules and terrorists to take advantage of 'relaxed' security measures.  Case in point profiling and John Gilmore's run-in with airport security last year.  As I recall, John purchased his ticket with cash within 24-hour of departure and had only carry-on items.  He was subjected to what he felt were requests for an unnecessary search of his carry-on and person.  

At the beginning of November and unannounced to the public, and seemingly unknown to most airline employees, such searches are now unnecessary under FAA regulation (don't have the particular citing).  Although notice of this change should have been posted in most airline employee break areas, few if any airlines offer regular rule update training to their ground personnel.  As a result many airline service agents continue the practice since its better to be safe... If a passenger objects and asks for a supervisor and assuming the sup is up to date on the regulations, they should not now be required to undergo this ordeal.

--Steve 







From pethern at inet.uni2.dk  Tue Nov 18 19:29:57 1997
From: pethern at inet.uni2.dk (Peter Herngaard)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:29:57 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b09803dce3d1@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9711190431.A11416-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>





On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Sorry. I was unclear. I was comparing U.S. citizens with citizens of
> another country who are living in that country.
> 
> If a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. is running an ISP, I would argue from
> principle that he has a right to distribute writings (I like Jeanne's
> bookstore analogy) penned by citizens of another country.
But would the goverment under existing law have a right to force
the publisher  to disclose the real identity of the one who wrote the 
inflamatory message to a foreign goverment?
Does the application of bilateral treaties the United States has with 
other countries require dual criminality i.e. child pornography, piracy, 
fraud etc?
 Most speech that would be considered hate speech in Europe would not 
meet the prerequirement of dual criminality.






From Afriend at good-buddy-911.com  Wed Nov 19 11:34:07 1997
From: Afriend at good-buddy-911.com (Afriend at good-buddy-911.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:34:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: - Herbatrol Beats Them All -
Message-ID: <28093935_97745020>



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From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 18 19:46:03 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:46:03 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>



At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>of it).

        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
across the border. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 18 19:51:22 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:51:22 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971118230627.0aef514c@pop.mindspring.com>



At 11:33 PM 11/18/97 +0100, Peter Herngaard wrote:

>Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
>a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United 
>States to set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?

>For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in 
>California out of reach of German law.

        It is not against US law to claim to be or to be a Nazi so the
action is legal in the US. 

>Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from 
>violating the speech codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?

        The US currently has laws governing foreign ownership of
publications in the US. Ted Turner had to become a citizen. Don't remember
the details but precedent for publications not intended primarily for US
consumption. (A CNN of the future will be an interesting question.) 

        At least by international custom, a person another country is bound
by the laws of the country is in. Doing business in the US is bound by the
laws of the US. A non-US citizen setting up a website in the US receives
the same protections as anyone else doing business in the US. This is a
principle of international commerce. 

        As a matter of diplomacy, international conventions, such a law
would not be passed. The larger issue is it would incorporate the foreign
law into US law and in consequence case law stemming from it. At the
moment, on more important issues like taxes, because there is no common tax
law, even extradition for tax law violations is not possible. 

        As to the constitutionality of it, strict reading says no. It is
difficult to conceive that original intent would have meant Congress could
have passed laws prohibiting speaking ill of the King of England. 

        As to the ISP situation. The US has held that if you call for it,
it can not be regulated. Dial 1-900-sex4all can not be subject to federal
law. The internet is at worst a 900 number by analogy. It can not be
legislated against only regulated as to the mechanics of charging and
transactions, not content. 

        A lot of words but from what has gone before, no both
constitutionally and diplomatically and as a matter of economic policy. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 18 19:51:31 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:51:31 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971118231543.0dc79284@pop.mindspring.com>



At 05:22 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[Forwarded with permission, first few grafs deleted by request. --Declan]
>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:22 -0800 (PST)
>From: Margarita Lacabe <marga at derechos.org>
>Subject: UN Conference
>
>[The lineup from the conference]

        Without reviewing the list, these are all people from NGOs,
non-governmental organizations. They speak for no one but their
organizations if then. These people are no more representative of what they
might claim than is David Duke or Simon Wiesenthal. 

        Rather where it the public outrage at UN money being wasted on
giving self-important assholes a platform to promote their agendas? 

-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 18 19:54:33 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:54:33 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971118230721.0aefda2e@pop.mindspring.com>



At 02:35 PM 11/18/97 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>At 05:22 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>[Forwarded with permission, first few grafs deleted by request. --Declan]
>>
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:22 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Margarita Lacabe <marga at derechos.org>
>>Subject: UN Conference
>>
><Much deleted>
>> There was also a guy from Indigienous World Association who
>>missunderstood pretty much everything said, but was very passionate.
>
>Well, if that isn't a summary of 99% of non-netizens, I don't know what is...

        And 98% of netizens. 

-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 20:10:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:10:58 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b09803dce3d1@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b09803760c07@[207.167.93.63]>



At 8:14 PM -0700 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> Sorry. I was unclear. I was comparing U.S. citizens with citizens of
>> another country who are living in that country.
>>
>> If a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. is running an ISP, I would argue from
>> principle that he has a right to distribute writings (I like Jeanne's
>> bookstore analogy) penned by citizens of another country.
>But would the goverment under existing law have a right to force
>the publisher  to disclose the real identity of the one who wrote the
>inflamatory message to a foreign goverment?

No, "Congress shall make no law..." means, in most cases (*), that
bookstores, publishers, distributors, etc., cannot be compelled to request
permission about whom they may sell things to, may not be compelled to
require certificates of permission to sell material, etc.

So, getting back to the "can a law be passed against foreigners using U.S.
sites?" issue, this misses the real point. The chokepoint, or point of
control, is not enforcing U.S. laws against Germans, or Kuwaitis, or
Botswanans...it is, rather, at the bookstore, point of distribution, ISP,
publisher, etc. And it is clear that the U.S. government (and by extension,
the states) cannot compel a publisher, distributor, ISP, bookstore, etc.,
to screen purchasers, to require a license to read, etc.

(* The exceptions being for obscenity, espionage, and the usual things. I
don't agree with these exceptions, but these are the oft-debated
impingements on the First.)


> Most speech that would be considered hate speech in Europe would not
>meet the prerequirement of dual criminality.

None of it would. We in America are perfectly free to call for the killing
of all niggers, the expulsion of gypsies, and the truth about the Holocaust
myth.  (Not taht I personally believe in any of these examples.) Too bad
other countries place civil order above basic liberty.

It's time to "Just Say No" to the U.N. The John Birch Society makes more
sense every day.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From rfarmer at HiWAAY.net  Tue Nov 18 20:11:17 1997
From: rfarmer at HiWAAY.net (Randall Farmer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:11:17 +0800
Subject: Stylometry
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971118211117.5311A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>



Here (here being at the bottom of the message :) is the code for the stylometry
program. Note that I specified that the stylometry also involved a calculator
-- that's because the shell script only processes your data to get the numbers
you need out; the tough part is still up to you. 

After it runs, you have 

A. a file, ./counts, containing wordcounts like so. (The first line is the
ever-present quirk, which occurs because I have yet to master sed.)

1689 
 550 THE
 344 AND
 316 TO
...

and B. Output to the screen, like so:

[wc/uwc]
      1738     12561     77775 <-- Lines/words/bytes for the original file
      2557      5113     31226 <-- First part is the number of *different*
                                   words used in the document, ignore the rest.
[word counts] <-- A juicy excerpt from the counts file
 550 THE
 344 AND
 316 TO
 271 A
 195 OF
[punc frequency: comma/period/hyphen/quote/semi]
584 <-- Number of commas
1536 <-- Periods
79 <-- Dashes
315 <-- Double-quote marks
10 <-- Semicolons
[and/or/but as sentence-splitters]
24 <-- Occurrences of "and," (including comma -- that's the point)
12 <-- "or,"
7 <-- "but,"

There are too many things you can calculate from this output for me to
enumerate (although the ratios of words to periods, commas, semicolons, and
conjunctions as sentence splitters are rather useful...compare two or three of
a known author's documents to find his/her characteristics, then compare that 
to your unknown and see if you've got a match). 

[Note that the whole sed mess is supposed to be one line]

#!/bin/sh
# prep: Prepares a text for analysis

sed "y/abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ/;s/[^A-Z']/ /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;y/ /\n/;"<$1|sort|uniq -c|sort -rn>./counts

echo [wc/uwc]
wc<$1
wc<./counts
echo [word counts]
grep -wie "the" -e "and" -e "to" -e "a" -e "of" < counts
echo [punc frequency: comma/period/hyphen/quote/semi]
grep -c ","<$1
grep -c "."<$1
grep -c "-"<$1
grep -c \"<$1
grep -c "\;"<$1
echo [and/or/but as sentence-splitters]
grep -c "and,"<$1
grep -c "or,"<$1
grep -c "but,"<$1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer at hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer








From rsalz at opengroup.org  Tue Nov 18 20:15:46 1997
From: rsalz at opengroup.org (Rich Salz)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:15:46 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
Message-ID: <199711190359.WAA10764@sulphur.osf.org>



>How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
>companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest
>money into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
>Europe? 

We got an official legal opinion, which was that wholly-owned subsidiaries
of US entities are subject to US regulations in this area.

>Since Sun bought the Russian Elvis+ company

Are you really sure that they bought it all? That would go against what
we had been told, and I have a great deal of respect for the legal/crypto
expertise of "Barry an Jay" at the Washington, DC, law office of Hale & Dorr.
	/r$






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Nov 18 20:17:23 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:17:23 +0800
Subject: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711190409.WAA27422@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
> Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
> 
> > Is your claim that there was a
> > second Great Awakending or are you saying the traditional (if you will)
> > dating is incorrect?
> 
> I'm saying that I think you're confusing the Renaissance with the Great
> Awakening. :-).

Hardly, the Renaissance started toward the beginning of the 1400's (eg
Galileo) and ended by the end of the 1500's (eg Newton). Did you know that
Galileo died the same year that Newton was born? Some contemporary of Newton
made the comment that the world could support no more than 1 such intellect
at a time.

> BTW, Emerson, Dickenson, Whitman, Thureau, etc., were part
> of the same ideological outpouring which, in the theological arena, was the
> Great Awakening. A lot can be said for the view that this was American
> Romanticism, as Chopin, Byron, the Brontes, Austen, etc., were all
> happening in roughly the same couple of generations. Later, like libertines
> and enthusiasts throughout history, they became extremely repressive. We
> eventually came to call them Victorians. (Sound familiar, you baby boomers?)

After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.

In thinking about this it occurs to me that immediately after each such
occurance of a 'Great Awakening' there is a war of global (or at least
what passes for the know world) proportions.

Fortunately I can lay claim to being either the last of the baby boomers
or the first of the gen-x'ers depending on whose definition you use.
Personaly, I consider the labels spin-doctorisms intended to focus folks on
the differences instead of the similarities.

> > > that Vlad Dracul, the Impaler, was Transylvanian
> >
> > Actualy, to be accurate his name was Vlad Teppish. He was eventualy killed by
> > his lord for carrying on excesses such as killing a woman because she let her
> > husband walk around with a tattered coat. Dracul and Dracula are derived
> > from dragon and imply a connection with the devil (which also derives its
> > own existance from this lexical tree).
> 
> Okay. I have to go back and look now, I woudldn't be surprised if you're
> right. Anyway, there were two Transylanian nobelmen, father and son, and
> one, the impaler was, among other things, called Vlad, son of Dracul,
> which, I think, gets you Dracula, but I'm not sure. The Teppish part sounds
> like it's more right, now that you mention it. Maybe we're looking at Vlad
> Dracul the father, and Vlad Tepish, Dracula, (son of Dracul)?  Oh, well, as
> I said in my rant, the cost of error is bandwidth. :-). Someone here
> probably has all the, um, gory details...

Actualy 'dracul' is a word that means devil, it has the same roots as
'dragon'. Neither father or son used that in their name, it's what others
called Vlad when they weren't calling him the Impaler.

> > That doesn't change the fact that the opinion, anonymous or not, originated
> > from a single source.
> 
> I think I could argue for multiple simultaneous sources of the same opinion
> pretty successfully. :-).

Yes, but each of those were individuals. Opinions are tied to individuality
and not geography or chronological ordering. What you actualy have is a
group of individual opinions that once the observer is aware of the set then
forms their own opinion of what the original opinions meant.

> > While I can accept that testable facts can be isolated
> > from source biases it escapes me how an opinion can be so isolated.
> 
> I think this sums up Socrates' "Right Opinion" statement pretty well. Have
> you read Plato, by chance? ;-). Folks later called this the Mind/Body
> problem. How do we know what we think in here is what we see out there,
> etc. Big problem in philosophy. Science solves it to most people's
> understanding of it. Or mine, anyway.

A better and more fundamental question:

How do we know what we think is what we think?

If you can't demonstrate this then you have no way of demonstrating there is
even an 'out there' to see.

The point that always seemed clear to me is that there is an implicit
assumption with the whole mind/body question, in short; there is more to
reality than what we experience. Therefore our experience of reality is
fundamentaly different than reality. A further problem I see is that the
implied assumption that the observer is seperate and isolated from that
being observed.

> I said later on in the rant that when we got to
> science, that that was better. With science, we got as close to "truth" as
> we're ever going to get, asymptotically closer, but not to truth itself.

You are using a fundamentaly different science than I use. At no time does
science assume there is a truth, only interactions that can be manipulated
and are simple enough in their core interactions for us to understand.

> Science gives a way to keep getting *closer*...

Science is nothing more than a methodology for asking questions that fit
particular and well defined forms. At the core of this is a basic assumption
about nature, it is homogenous and isomorphic.

> > Perhaps opinion & fact are unwittingly being confused. Opinions tell the
> > observer about the holder of the opinion, not the subject the opinion is
> > direct toward.
> 
> Maybe, but remember my smart crack about hueristics. It's all we've got, in
> any practical sense.

Please be so kind why heuristics is the only thing we got? Seems to me that
serendipity has raised its head more than once. As I understand heuristic
algorithms (ie rule base) is that they pre-suppose a system for goal meeting
and then go through a itterative process comparing the current position with
the goal and then reducing that distance.

> We can't just go around testing every opinion we hear,
> more than once, anyway, :-), and, frankly, most of us just take other
> people's word for things, especially if we respect their reputation. :-).

Ah, but there is a rub here. Respect is an opinion.

> Remember the story about Gauss, who, in the middle of some guy's
> announcement that he'd discovered the normal distribution(?), said
> hueristic: Gauss is usually right, so he must be right here, too. (An
> appeal to authority, for you informal fallacy counters out there... :-).)

Yeah, he did this several times. He nearly caused Bolya to quit mathematics.
He made many such claims through his life, quite a few of them were never
born out when his papers were examined after his death, though quite a few
of them were as well. He also told his son to ask his wife to wait a moment
to die while he finished his cyphers (calculations).

> Well, actually, it's more about how to make replicable results, I'd say.
> The "how to ask questions" might come from a theory (brought about by
> observing reality with replicable results), and the creativity of the
> questioner.

If you don't know how to ask a question in a scientific manner you can't
test it. Science itself doesn't say anything about the results directly
other than they are homogenous and isomorphic, the observer does however when
we examine the goals and reasons for the experiment in the first place. To
observe nature requires a fundamentaly different methodolgy than 'commen
sense' observation. Further, the realization that there are processes in
nature that are fundamentaly un-repeatable is what forced the creation of
statistics and the study of families of events.

> > Science is a non-intuitive mechanism whereby we can regulate how
> > we think about the world around us.
> 
> And, my understanding is that at the core of that is the replicability of
> experiment. And the predictivity of theory, of course.

Replication of experiments comes from a base assumption in science (which
unlike other axiomatic systems are open to refutation) that nature is
fundamentaly homogenous and isomorphic, in other words the rules of nature
are the same irrespective of geography. Should we find such a non-homogenous
or non-isomorphism in nature then the fundamental reliance on science as we
impliment it now would be shown wrong. 

The flip side to this is that if the universe turns out to be so arranged
then we have in effect a non-relativistic frame of reference because we have
now proven by exception that a given point or particle in the universe is
truly unique and identifiable through some mechanism.

> > What to do with the results is engineering.
> 
> How to make the results *profitable* is what engineering is... ;-).

No, that is business management. At no point in an engineering study is the
issue of cost v price examined. Study Nikola Tesla to understand why your
statement is fallacious.

> > Never confuse popularity with influence.
> 
> Well, since I don't know how to define one in terms of the other, I won't.
> How's that?

Popularity means that the issue is well known, influence is that people use
it as a reason for their actions.

> Still, I think the idea of opinion/influence/reputation/identity as linked
> this way allows you to think about it better.
> 
> Or at least it helped *me* think about it better, anyway.

I agree that they are linked. I don't think that in the grand scheme of
getting through life they are nearly as important as some would have us
believe. I personaly am more interested in the fundamental question of
whether the meme or paradigm works in the sense of providing me the return
on my resource investment that I intended. I guess a simpler way to put it
is that intellectual capital should not be avaluated by the same methodology
we use to select books or movies to buy.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 20:17:53 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:17:53 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118230627.0aef514c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b09806b6cf7a@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:

>        The US currently has laws governing foreign ownership of
>publications in the US. Ted Turner had to become a citizen. Don't remember

Yes, this was a major hurdle for Ted Turner. Being born in the Confederacy,
renouncing his citizenship and pledging allegiance the Yankees was indeed a
major move on his part.

(He was even forced to rename the Confederate News Network to its current,
more politically correct, name.)


--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov 18 20:21:28 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:21:28 +0800
Subject: Jeffery Dahlmer Finds Work!
Message-ID: <1tzU059/BRC8uxMk5ipazA==@bureau42.ml.org>



* United Hospital in St. Paul, Minn., announced in May that it was
looking for someone to take over curating its collection of more
than 14,000 human hearts, each stored in a plastic bag and the
collection featuring specimens of nearly every kind of heart disease. 
Dr. Jesse Edwards, who started the collection and is now 85 years
old, is retiring, and says maintenance of the hearts by a staff of five
costs $650,000 a year.







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 20:25:37 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:25:37 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>of it).
>
>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>across the border.

And what would be wrong with this?

If they're not citizens, and not on a valid visa, they have no legal right
to be in the U.S.

(At a more abstract level, I support the idea of completely open borders,
provided we end all forcible contributions to welfare, medical care,
schools, job quotas, etc. But so long as taxpayers are paying 60% of
everything earned, as I am, to support others, the rules about entry to the
U.S. must be enforced.)

Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 20:28:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:28:22 +0800
Subject: Banned smells
In-Reply-To: <34725441.61B8@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0980af7cf33@[207.167.93.63]>



At 7:51 PM -0700 11/18/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>* The University of Minnesota was seeking more "specialists" to
>work on its three-year, $390,000 program to set an "odor emissions
>rating system" for regulating the state's 35,000 animal feedlots,
>according to an August Minneapolis Star Tribune story.  Having
>judges, or government officials, go sniff the feedlot apparently
>would give insufficient due process of law; rather, a panel of
>sniffers will develop objective standards on the types of odors and
>their strength.  Already 35 people are employed and have begun
>sniffing the nearly-200 chemical components of cow and pig
>manure in order to categorize them for the formal state stench test.

 This is, pardon me, a minor issue compared to other "smellist"
legislation. Here in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, some areas have
been declared "fragrance free." It's a crime to enter these fragrance-free
zones with banned smells.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 20:34:26 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:34:26 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971118163834.00ca77e0@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0980bf30a9e@[207.167.93.63]>



At 7:54 PM -0700 11/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Sorry. I was unclear. I was comparing U.S. citizens with citizens of
>another country who are living in that country.
>
>If a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. is running an ISP, I would argue from
>principle that he has a right to distribute writings (I like Jeanne's
>bookstore analogy) penned by citizens of another country.

 This is a slam dunk truth. This is black letter law.

I'm surprised this is even being debated.

"Congress shall make no law.." does not mean that government gets to ban
sales and distritution of works by Tolstoy, Zola, Stendahl, Marx, and so on.

Get real.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 20:34:27 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:34:27 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <199711190422.XAA14960@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000 at westsec.denver.ssds.com>, on
11/18/97 
   at 06:28 PM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes at ssds.com> said:

>Interesting.  I was under the opinion that schooling and "social
>services" were no more constitutional rights then, say, free food or a
>pot to piss in.

Well I have done some more research on this.

Seems that there is a SC decision in Plyler v Doe 1982 in which the courts
have ruled that a child (citizen or not) has the *right* to public
education. This comes out of a Texas case not too differnt from Prop 187
in California.

The proposition I mentioned in my last post was Prop 187.

I seem to be having some difficulty in finding the actual documents
regarding this case and subsequent court rulings (opinions on it I can
find by the truckload).

I'll keep searching but if anyone has a pointer to where this info can be
found it would be appreciated.

OK I found Plyler v Doe at:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=457&invol=202

I haven't had a chance to read through it yet.

It seems that this case is one of the main attacks against Prop 187 which
AFAIK is still in the courts.

Here is a ruling of the 9th district by Judge Mariana R. Pfaelzer:

http://128.120.36.171/By-Month/MN-Vol-3-96/Prop_187_Opinion.html

Appendix A of this ruling has the text of Prop 187.

I still have not been able to find out where this thing is in the court
system.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 18 20:42:10 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:42:10 +0800
Subject: Dateline / Nov. 18/97
Message-ID: <34726A92.4DFA@dev.null>



"I break the law by engaging in prostitution."
"I break the law by doing illegal drugs."
"I want others to go to jail for breaking the law, based on my 
testimony."

Did the concern for the upholding of the letter of the law, by the
allegedly abused woman, the police and the prosecutors, extend to
requiring the accuser to be punished for her own violation of the
law? 
I can hardly wait for the school-yard crack dealers to testify 
in the hate-speech prosecution of concerned parents who call them 
'niggers'. 

Is it my imagination, or are there a lot of people going to jail
based on the testimony of people who want other people to be
prosecuted for crimes, but who don't want to be prosecuted for
their own crimes?

God Bless what the mainstream press still claims is America!

TruthMonger






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 20:43:33 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:43:33 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711190429.XAA15043@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e at pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/18/97 
   at 11:34 PM, Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf at mindspring.com> said:

>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>of it).

>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>across the border. 

And this would be a BadThing(TM)??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 21:03:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:03:24 +0800
Subject: Nonookie Matsurbatshi's final offer...
Message-ID: <199711190452.FAA12475@basement.replay.com>



TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> * News of the Weird reported in 1994 on the controversy over who
> owned the world's largest cow hairball

> In the course of his work at a local beef plant,
> Canchola plucks out the non-championship hairballs, dries them,
> has colleague Frank Alcala paint faces or scenery on them, and sells
> them for $50 each.

For more details: http://misty.com/chop_chop.htm







From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 21:06:31 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:06:31 +0800
Subject: Banned smells
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0980af7cf33@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711190459.XAA15375@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102808b0980af7cf33@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 08:21 PM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>At 7:51 PM -0700 11/18/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>>* The University of Minnesota was seeking more "specialists" to
>>work on its three-year, $390,000 program to set an "odor emissions
>>rating system" for regulating the state's 35,000 animal feedlots,
>>according to an August Minneapolis Star Tribune story.  Having
>>judges, or government officials, go sniff the feedlot apparently
>>would give insufficient due process of law; rather, a panel of
>>sniffers will develop objective standards on the types of odors and
>>their strength.  Already 35 people are employed and have begun
>>sniffing the nearly-200 chemical components of cow and pig
>>manure in order to categorize them for the formal state stench test.

> This is, pardon me, a minor issue compared to other "smellist"
>legislation. Here in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, some areas have
>been declared "fragrance free." It's a crime to enter these
>fragrance-free zones with banned smells.

LOL!! I can just see the PSA's now: "Eat a Burrito Go to Jail"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 21:09:06 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:09:06 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0980bf30a9e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711190457.XAA15353@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102809b0980bf30a9e@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 08:25 PM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>At 7:54 PM -0700 11/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Sorry. I was unclear. I was comparing U.S. citizens with citizens of
>>another country who are living in that country.
>>
>>If a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. is running an ISP, I would argue from
>>principle that he has a right to distribute writings (I like Jeanne's
>>bookstore analogy) penned by citizens of another country.

> This is a slam dunk truth. This is black letter law.

>I'm surprised this is even being debated.

>"Congress shall make no law.." does not mean that government gets to ban
>sales and distritution of works by Tolstoy, Zola, Stendahl, Marx, and so
>on.

>Get real.

Well you forget Tim that here in the "Land of the Freeh" the Constitution
is only a minor incovienance to ObPCVoteBuying by the criminals in DC.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 18 21:18:18 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:18:18 +0800
Subject: Is Tim May a 'felon' under these laws? / Re: Banned smells
Message-ID: <199711190457.FAA13446@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote: 
> At 7:51 PM -0700 11/18/97, TruthMonger wrote:
> >Having judges, or government officials, go sniff the feedlot apparently
> >would give insufficient due process of law; rather, a panel of
> >sniffers will develop objective standards on the types of odors and
> >their strength.

>  Here in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, some areas have
> been declared "fragrance free." It's a crime to enter these fragrance-free
> zones with banned smells.

  This would explain the cancellation of all flights between DC and
Kalifornia.
  Why didn't Tim May perform a 'citizen's arrest' in Stanford? Failure
of nerve, or offsetting penalties? (Punt, Tim, punt!)

NotThatI'mATroubleMakerMonger






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 21:22:21 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:22:21 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711190511.AAA15530@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 08:12 PM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).
>>
>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border.

>And what would be wrong with this?

>If they're not citizens, and not on a valid visa, they have no legal
>right to be in the U.S.

>(At a more abstract level, I support the idea of completely open borders,
>provided we end all forcible contributions to welfare, medical care,
>schools, job quotas, etc. But so long as taxpayers are paying 60% of
>everything earned, as I am, to support others, the rules about entry to
>the U.S. must be enforced.)

>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)

Well at one time there was a demand for cheap labor by US industry that
supported the infux of immagrents. In modern times their is no such demand
( if there were we have plenty of bums on welfare that can fill this need)
but there is a demand for cheap votes. The current Statest have been
watching their power base erroding over the years as more and more
Americans refuse to beleive thier socialist lies. The only way that they
can continue in power is to import new voters who are easier to hoodwink
and cheaper to buy. Confermation of this policy can be seen in the
behavior of the INS durring the last election cycle where large numbers of
immigrants were naturalized before the elections.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From kent at songbird.com  Tue Nov 18 21:22:44 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:22:44 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118230721.0aefda2e@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19971118210857.62464@songbird.com>



On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 11:34:20PM -0600, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
> At 02:35 PM 11/18/97 -0800, Lizard wrote:
> >At 05:22 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >>[Forwarded with permission, first few grafs deleted by request. --Declan]
> >>
> >>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:22 -0800 (PST)
> >>From: Margarita Lacabe <marga at derechos.org>
> >>Subject: UN Conference
> >>
> ><Much deleted>
> >> There was also a guy from Indigienous World Association who
> >>missunderstood pretty much everything said, but was very passionate.
> >
> >Well, if that isn't a summary of 99% of non-netizens, I don't know what is...> 
>         And 98% of netizens. 

Except for the "passionate" part, of course.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 21:27:12 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:27:12 +0800
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab09818cc0f2e@[207.167.93.63]>



At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu"
>that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the
>"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often
>rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
>going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
>current
>RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
>kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to
>receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for
...

As I said earlier, Richelson's comprehensive study of foreign intelligence
agencies describes it as Chobetsu, as does Hersh. Perhaps there is an issue
of transliteration here?

I found one of my Web page bookmarks, http://www.onestep.com/milnet/iagency.htm

and it lists various SIGINT agencies. As these may be of interest to
others, I will include the full list below, including the description of
Chobetsu:


Principle SIGINT Collection Organizations


Mnemonic   Service Name                     Branch
Country
AFMBW      Amt Fur Frenmeldwesen            Branch of the              West
             Bundeswehr (Office for         Bundeswher                 Germany
             Radio Monitoring)

AMAN       Agaf Modiin (Intelligence        Intelligence Corps,        Israel
             Branch of Israeli Defense      SIGINT
             Forces)

Chobetsu   Ground Self-Defense Forces       Investigation              Japan
                      Division,
                      Second Section,
                      Annex Chamber

CSE        Communications Security          Under the Department       Canada
             Establishment                  of Defense

DGSE       Direction Generale de            Information                France
             la Securite Exterieure         Directorate,
                                            Technical Means
                                            Branch, and
                                            Evaluations,
                                            Prospectives,
                                            Orientation Branch

GCHQ       General Communications           Directorate of             UK
           Headquarters                     SIGINT Operations

GCR        Groupement de Communications     -                          France
             (Radio-Electric
             Communications Group)

HSR        Hlavni Sprava Rozvedky           Directorate D              Czecho.
             (Main Directorate of the       Third Department
             General Staff)

NSA        National Security Agency         Office of SIGINT           US
                                            (P Group), Analysis
                                            of SIGINT

SIOS       Secondo Reparto (Second          Under each of Navy         Italy
             Department                     Army, and Air Force
                                            Intelligence

SISMI      Servizio perle Informazioni      ?                          Italy
             e la Sicurezza Militaire
             (Service for Information and
             Military Security)

TD         Technical Department             ?                          China



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From aleph at cco.caltech.edu  Tue Nov 18 21:31:19 1997
From: aleph at cco.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:31:19 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118211756.00c91a60@pop-server.caltech.edu>



At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).
>>
>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border.
>
>And what would be wrong with this?
>
>If they're not citizens, and not on a valid visa, they have no legal right
>to be in the U.S.
>
I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.  

>(At a more abstract level, I support the idea of completely open borders,
>provided we end all forcible contributions to welfare, medical care,
>schools, job quotas, etc. But so long as taxpayers are paying 60% of
>everything earned, as I am, to support others, the rules about entry to the
>U.S. must be enforced.)
>
>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>
>--Tim May
>
>The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>


                             -Colin






From gnu at toad.com  Tue Nov 18 21:36:21 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:36:21 +0800
Subject: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
Message-ID: <199711190530.VAA02158@toad.com>



It has a screwy "non-commercial use only, AT&T gets everything, you
get nothing" license, but otherwise it looks interesting.

	John

From: Avi Rubin <rubin at research.att.com>

John,

You may remember that at Crypto, I described the Crowds system to you.
The system is now robust and up and running, and we have ported it to
windows and unix platforms, so just about anyone should be able to use
it. In fact, if there is such a thing as Perl for macintosh, I'm sure
it would work on that platform too.

We are very interested in getting more users of our system. As it is
intended to provide privacy to web users, I thought that perhaps it is
something that you and EFF would be interested in. Do you think you
could put a link to the Crowds page on the EFF web site?  Anything
else you can do to help increase the usage would be great, because our
system has the property that the more poeple use it, the more secure
it is. Let me know if you have any questions.

The Crowds page is:  http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds

Thanks,
Avi

--

*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin at research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Labs - Research
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809

   --> Check out http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/ for a new
       book on web security (The Web Security Sourcebook).
*********************************************************************






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 21:49:15 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:49:15 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb0981af490ec@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:58 PM -0700 11/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Well at one time there was a demand for cheap labor by US industry that
>supported the infux of immagrents. In modern times their is no such demand
>( if there were we have plenty of bums on welfare that can fill this need)

This is actually not the case. I live between Santa Cruz and Salinas and
Monterey, home to some of the most fertile soil in the world (most of the
lettuce, strawberries, artichokes, and other vegetables consumed in the
U.S. is/are grown within 30 miles of me). Every day I see stoop laborers,
up from Jalisco or Michuchan or other provinces, glad to make more in a few
months here than they make in a few years back in Mexico.

And every day I see bums, drifters, winos, layabouts, and derelicts,
holding up their pathetic "Will work for food" signs. (Which are lies, of
course. Anyone trying to get some decent work out of these bums will find
zilch.)

I saw a great bumper sticker on the back of a truck filled with spray
painting gear. Driven by a black guy, interesting enough. It said:

"I _do_ work for food."


>but there is a demand for cheap votes. The current Statest have been
>watching their power base erroding over the years as more and more
>Americans refuse to beleive thier socialist lies. The only way that they
>can continue in power is to import new voters who are easier to hoodwink
>and cheaper to buy. Confermation of this policy can be seen in the
>behavior of the INS durring the last election cycle where large numbers of
>immigrants were naturalized before the elections.

By the way, this massive purchase of votes is now being rolled back.
Immigration is planning to reverse many of these "instant citizenship"
deals. Too late to have an effect on Clinton's '96 election, but nothing
could have saved Dole.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From jito at eccosys.com  Tue Nov 18 21:58:28 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:58:28 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4532] Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711170700.QAA13617@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711190552.OAA16419@eccosys.com>



At 16:23 97/11/17 GMT, Adam Back wrote:

> I am not sure why discussion should lower your reputation capital,
> unless open discussion is frowned upon by those who you wish to
> influence.  Perhaps you fear that you will be dismissed as a
> cypherpunk, a hardliner, whilst you are trying to appear less radical.

Maybe reputation capital is not the right word. There are some people
who do not necessarily like what I am saying in Japan. I am using all
of the media spin that I can to keep the tabloids out of my face. I
regularly gets calls from the tabloids here trying to find something
to tear down my reputation in Japan. This method of media spin is
how most politicians in Japan extort and put pressure on public figures.

Even if everyone here knows exactly what I mean, people can quote
me out of context and things can escalate from there.

So yes. I fear being cast as a cypherpunk hardliner and having it
distorted in the Japanese press. I know for a fact that a few people
are trying to do this and more will in the future.

> I am pleased that you are discussing with us crypto politics in
> Japan... we have few contributors from Japan in the past.  The lower
> protection for political speech in your country I always suspected was
> the problem.  Dissidents who speak out against the government line in
> Japan I suspect are taking bigger risks than in the US, UK, and
> Europe.

You are correct. It is difficult to be a successful dissident in Japan.

> I would've thought that the NSA's world policeman attempts would be
> resented by Japanese secret service types.  I get the impression there
> are tensions between EU, UK and US secret services.

They are resented in Japan. The problem is, I have many of my assets
in the United States so taking a Japanese nationalist stance against
the NSA is not very intelligent for me. I like many things in the US
and I would like to protect my ability to access to those things.

> > So... I am a wimpy moderate, but at least I'm talking to you folks.
> > If you want me to shit or get off the pot, I think I'll get off the
> > pot.
> 
> Well be careful of doing deals with the devil.  Several crypto
> lobbying groups in the US some suspect did more harm than good.  These
> groups lost their no compromise stance, and ended up helping to draft
> laws to ban crypto because they thought they could make the laws
> mildly less obnoxious by doing so.  It may even have been the case
> that they had a net negative impact on freedom of crypto.  Making
> deals with politicians is a dangerous game to play.  They are
> opinionless power brokers, and will just use you as a bargaining chip.

I agree. I am trying to keep my politics rather disorganized and
focused on cutting through lies and bullshit rather than building
a political position. I have not organized anything other than a
regular cypherpunks meeting where many different types of people
exchange views and work on technology. I do not "negotiate" with
the government. I just express my opinions. For now... but I understand
very well the risk of political exposure. Many of my colleagues
and friends have been  socially destroyed when trying to break a pact
with the "dark side." I have already had several "recruitment"
pings from the "dark side," and the most recent attempt in the form
of a bribe offer, I reported Time Magazine. The "dark side" doesn't
like me, but they don't have anything on me... yet...

> > P.S. I am going out of town for two days and may not have
> > net connectivity. So, if I don't respond to something, it's not
> > because I'm hiding. If you don't hear from me in 3 days, call John
> > Markoff for me. ;-P
> 
> Don't know how things work in Japan, but I hear from people who've had
> spooky attentions that the best protection against spooks is harsh
> bright lights: they hate publicity.

Same. Markoff promised that if I received a threat from either the US
or Japanese government, he would write it up in the New York Times
for me. I think this is the best protection I have.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From jito at eccosys.com  Tue Nov 18 21:58:43 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:58:43 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4707] Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711162343.IAA12079@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711190552.OAA16422@eccosys.com>



At 21:21 97/11/18 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> 
> >who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the
"Chobetsu"
> >that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering
to the
> >"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the
often
> >rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
> >going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
> >current
> >RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
> >kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm
going to
> >receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for
> ...
> 
> As I said earlier, Richelson's comprehensive study of foreign intelligence
> agencies describes it as Chobetsu, as does Hersh. Perhaps there is an issue
> of transliteration here?
> 

Tim... Interesting. It sounds like the same organization I am talking about,
but I didn't know it was part of the defense force. I will ask a few experts
and back back to you if I find out more.

Maybe I'll give them a call. ;-)

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 18 22:03:27 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:03:27 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb0981af490ec@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711190555.AAA16015@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0310280cb0981af490ec@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 11:39 PM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>By the way, this massive purchase of votes is now being rolled back.
>Immigration is planning to reverse many of these "instant citizenship"
>deals. Too late to have an effect on Clinton's '96 election, but nothing
>could have saved Dole.

I'll have to agree with you there, Dole '96 was dead right out of the
gate.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of the Dornan Campagne. So
many non-citizens were voting in that election it brought back fond
memories of the politics of Chicago.

Chicago the most democratic city in the world even the dead get to vote,
twice!! :=0

BTW does anyone know what ever happend with Dornan's challenge to the last
election?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
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iqWIK0RN5pBVaHs9E8yr9SD8ufDKWVhyccAQ7WcQjtroj5k9/hm12ZgyxkJb1b8w
A6E8oCIZYhE=
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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 18 22:05:15 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:05:15 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb0981fb7af46@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

(Remember those, "Aliens, remember that you must report to the Alien
Landing Terminal every January.")

No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
Green Card.

I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From jito at eccosys.com  Tue Nov 18 22:11:53 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:11:53 +0800
Subject: Exporting Crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711171623.QAA01215@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711190559.OAA16675@eccosys.com>



At 21:52 97/11/17 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Because Ito-san is a lying sack of shit. "I support crypto, although
> not for the four horsemen." 

Just to clarify my position and respond to an earlier post by
Tim about drug dealers...

I support the use of crypto by everyone. I also agree with Tim
that historically black markets have spurred the growth of
all kinds of technologies, markets and products.

My point was that I'm not pushing for crypto "just for" the
drug dealers in Asia. This would be a stupid political position
for me and they probably don't need my help anyway.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From hayden at phoenix.net  Tue Nov 18 22:15:34 1997
From: hayden at phoenix.net (hayden at phoenix.net)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:15:34 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711190555.AAA16015@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3472827B.61E1@phoenix.net>



William H. Geiger III wrote:
>

>
> BTW does anyone know what ever happend with Dornan's challenge to the last
> election?
>


He lost.
Rumor has it he is going after it again but we will see.
Woody Jenkins case was rough too and he lost .
No telling what Woody will do.

Genie






From frantz at netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 22:29:00 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:29:00 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <v03110757b0982d422e8b@[207.94.250.122]>



At 5:51 PM -0800 11/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>Oh I agree with you here that there is not constutional right to social
>services. I wish I had a reference to the court decisions on this. It was
>a year or two ago regarding one of the balot propositions in California
>that would cut off various social services to illegal aliens. I am going
>off memory here but I don't think it ever got all the way to the SC. If
>anyone has a reference to this case please post.

It is still grinding thru the courts.  Governor Pete Wilson is still
pushing the cut off.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov 18 23:02:40 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:02:40 +0800
Subject: It seemed like a good idea at the time...
Message-ID: <34728C50.35BE@dev.null>



It was a pretty simple plan.
First, I stripped naked and painted myself blue. Then, I stood on my
head and started sending posts to the CypherPunks list.
Soon, I would be declared 'The Craziest Fucker on the InterNet' and be
the host of talk-shows across the nation. Letterman, Leno, Springer--
they would all be begging for my presence on their programs.

Little did I realize that my outrageous, insane offerings would be
trumped, time and time again, by seemingly average folks who held
down 'day jobs' in the heart of the mainstream computer industry.
Despite the widespread media coverage given to the homeless people who
wander the streets of America, babbling nonsensically to all who will
listen, as a result of the government abandoning the funding of homes
for the mentally ill and turning them out into the street...the media
is obviously ignoring the 'success stories' of those who have managed
to work their way into the heart of the computer industy, advancing 
their corporate status by mandating compliance with offically approved
vaporware, and substituting membership in the CypherPunks mailing list
for their previous mind-distorting medications.

If it wasn't for Bill Stewart and Bill Frantz constantly referring to
me as 'that *normal* guy', I "could'a been a contend'a."

TruthMonger






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 23:13:08 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:13:08 +0800
Subject: Flight 007 and our Civil Liberties
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09795d84b18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118231158.00712378@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 12:11 PM 11/18/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>The FBI has just completed a long press conference in which it reported its
>"no terrorist activity suspected" conclusions. Having watched most of it,
>and having seen the CIA animation shown at the press conference, I agree
>with their conclusions.
...
>However, now that the Flight 007 explosion has been ruled a non-terrorist
>event, will we get our freedoms back?

Flight 800, actually.....
KAL007 was the Korean plane shot down by Russians.

>So, these were the two big events which stimulated the FAA, under higher
>orders, to require mandatory ID of all travelling passengers. And more
>multimillion dollar sniffers to be installed in airports.

Is that multi-million-dollar explosive-sniffers,
or have they developed dollar-sniffers to support the War On Cash :-)

One of the parts that's irked me most about this (as distinct from
outrage at the loss of civil liberties) is that the thugs won't even
come out and say "The Government Requires You To Have Papers To Travel",
since they can't do that, at least without PR problems.
Instead they bully the airlines into requiring more obedience to 
avoid arbitrary $10,000 FUD penalties than a direct law could require.
And the airline employees keep telling me "it's always been this way"
a couple of weeks after each change of the rules.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Tue Nov 18 23:24:20 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:24:20 +0800
Subject: Overcoming War by Making Friends
In-Reply-To: <199711182118.PAA27868@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711190717.BAA00880@smoke.suba.com>



> Anonymous <nobody at replay.com> wrote:
> Consider the benefit that the prevention of World War I would have
> brought the world.  Millions of people would not have died before

	I don't consider this a benefit. 

> their time.  Millions of other people would not have lead lives after
> the war of dejection and sorrow either due to their own direct
> involvement in the war or that of their friends and relatives.

	There would have been something else to cause them sorrow and 
dejection. 
	Then think of the thinks that we aquired during WW1. Weren't 
sulfates invented during that war? Also advances in Metallurgy and 
avaition. 

> Communism would probably not have arisen sparing the lives of
> millions.
	
	Communism was already around. IIRC Mr. Marx wrote his manifesto
during the 1800's.
	
> World War II would probably not have occurred again sparing the lives
> of millions.

	And sparing us from further development in the areas of Aviation,
and medicine as well as radio & cryptography. Weather predection &etc. 

> We would be living in a far wealthier and more peaceful world.

	Doubtful. If those millions had survived, and reproduced, then 
there would me more people to share somewhat limited resources. Also,
WWII gave us the GI Bill, which allowed many people who otherwise wouldn't
have had the funds or time to persue college educations. It also was a 
major factor in the womens liberation movement. 

> Here I am afraid we disagree.  The world has too many damned leaders!

	Nope. Not enough. Not until everyone is there own leader will
we have enough leaders. 

> Finally, your perception that there is an "emphasis on violence,
> killing, and death" is not accurate.  What is the cypherpunk body
> count?  Last I checked it was zero.  Out of the thousands of people

	I think attila & Jim Choate might have racked up a few. 






From alan at clueserver.org  Tue Nov 18 23:26:29 1997
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:26:29 +0800
Subject: Almost a good case for censorship
Message-ID: <199711190824.AAA04912@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>



I saw something in the supermarket that made me almost wish for censorship.

The current issue of the Weekly Worldwide News has a picture of Jane Reno
is a swim suit.

Be afraid.  Be very afraid.
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Tue Nov 18 23:38:36 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:38:36 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711190422.XAA14960@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711190733.BAA00949@smoke.suba.com>



> >Interesting.  I was under the opinion that schooling and "social
> >services" were no more constitutional rights then, say, free food or a
> >pot to piss in.
> Well I have done some more research on this.
> Seems that there is a SC decision in Plyler v Doe 1982 in which the courts
> have ruled that a child (citizen or not) has the *right* to public
> education. This comes out of a Texas case not too differnt from Prop 187
> in California.

	The 2 problems I have are (1) Citizen implies that one is a member 
of a political division such as a state at some level. If you want to live
in a free world you have to give up citizenship as a requirement for anything. 
and (2) Education, of ANYONE, properly carried out will generate more of 
value FOR society than not educating, and one could with very little intellect
see how NOT educating people costs society.

	As to wether the state should provide financial support for schools,
well that is another matter.

	






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 23:39:11 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:39:11 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb0981af490ec@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118232342.031ab598@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:47 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>BTW does anyone know what ever happend with Dornan's challenge to the
last
>election?

The last I heard, approximately 1500 illegal aliens had been found to
have voted in that election (Dornan lost by about 940 votes) but
Democrats in the House were stonewalling taking any action to
Reinstate Dornan.  The INS was also refusing to cooperate in the
effort to determine if suspect voters were actually citizens or not.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNHKT/MJF0kXqpw3MEQIzlwCgidV9zFqVInIkZe8PY0hQa18XXD0AnA9v
Cvl0tfDG3W/9i/H7uSWzrxhn
=zs3A
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 18 23:50:22 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:50:22 +0800
Subject: mailing list archive
In-Reply-To: <199711181827.NAA08131@tana.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118231809.00715860@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 01:27 PM 11/18/1997 EST, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>If enough people want to buy CDs of the data, I'll set up an order page,
>establish pricing, etc.  Right now, for me to make a CD requires buying
>media and doing it at the media lab, unless I buy a drive, so the cost
>is somewhat dependent upon how many people are interested.  If someone wants

Remember that there's a lot of code in cypherpunks mail,
at least in the early history of the list :-)
So there's some risk of export restrictions applying,
and you might have to limit your sales to Real Americans
(or at least Real American mailing addresses.)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 19 00:36:42 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:36:42 +0800
Subject: Flight 800 and our Civil Liberties
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09795d84b18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280fb0984329032c@[207.167.93.63]>



At 12:11 AM -0700 11/19/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>One of the parts that's irked me most about this (as distinct from
>outrage at the loss of civil liberties) is that the thugs won't even
>come out and say "The Government Requires You To Have Papers To Travel",
>since they can't do that, at least without PR problems.
>Instead they bully the airlines into requiring more obedience to
>avoid arbitrary $10,000 FUD penalties than a direct law could require.
>And the airline employees keep telling me "it's always been this way"
>a couple of weeks after each change of the rules.

"We have _always_ been at war with Eastasia."

I've also noticed that the drones who work for the airlines have even less
common sense and humor than before. Any hint of a nonstandard answer
results in a stern look and perhaps a trip to Security.

I was picking up a boarding pass for a flight from San Diego to San Jose,
and truthfully answered "Yes" to the usually perfunctory "Have any of your
bags been out of your sight?"

The drone gave me a stern look, as if I were admitting to being a
terrorist, and immediately marched me toward the Security station. (I
almost chose to remain behind, but that just would've resulted in armed men
escorting me into a small room for some amount of interrogation, and no
ticket back to San Jose.)

The drone asked me, as we were walking, to explain further. I pointed to
the restrooms and said, "The stalls are too small for my bags, so I hung
one of the bags on the hooks provided."

She said, "Well,  I don't think that's what we mean by a bag leaving your
sight. But you're supposed to take the bag into the stall with you."

"Look, lady, maybe the women's restrooms are laid out differently, but the
men's restrooms have stalls that are barely wide enough to get into, let
alone carry a piece of carryon luggage into as well."

She was clearly puzzled and befuddled by a passenger-unit actually telling
the obvious truth that some large fraction of passengers just lie about....

She conferred with the security droids for several minutes, as I was told
to stand off in an empty area of the terminal. I just stood there calmly.

She told me to follow her back to the boarding area. She handed me a
boarding pass without another word being said.

I suppose a negative remark was placed in my permanent file.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov 19 00:39:01 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:39:01 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120092606.11412A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



While trying to submit the cypherpunks.to website to a few search engines,
I noticed that none of them seems to support indexing of https URL's. Is
anybody here aware of a search engine that indexes secure web pages? And
if there is no such search engine, what are the thoughts on using https to
deliberately keep pages out of indices?

Thanks,
-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From axlotl at rigel.infonex.com  Wed Nov 19 00:55:36 1997
From: axlotl at rigel.infonex.com (axlotl)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:55:36 +0800
Subject: ITAR
In-Reply-To: <19971119010002.15815.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <19971119004532.37050@rigel.infonex.com>

On Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 01:00:02AM -0000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
> If someone writes a piece of software, a networking layer, or anything else
> with support for later cryptographic enhancement but doesn't actually
> include the cryptographic implementation and it is later added by somebody
> outside of the United States does this fall under ITAR? 

Crypto exports have been governed (for the most part) by the EAR, not
ITAR, for about 11 months now. The EARs can be found at 15 CFR 730 et seq.

> In other words the original U.S. authors wrote the software with support for
> crypto, function hooks, etc. They didn't include any crypto at all. Somebody
> outside the United States uses these hooks and writes strong cryptography.
> These modifications are kept as patches and never exported from the U.S.. Is
> this allowed?

No. Software designed or modified to use cryptography is export controlled;
see ECCN 5D002 in 15 CFR part 744.

> What if the U.S. authors are actively collaborating with the
> non-US authors?

See 15 CFR 744.9, "Restrictions on Technical Assistance by US Persons With 
Respect to Encryption Items":

(a) General prohibition

No U.S. person may, without a license from BXA, provide technical assistance
(including training) to foreign persons with the intent to aid a foreign
person in the development or manufacture outside the United States of
encryption commodities and software that, if of United States origin, would
be controlled for"EI" reasons under ECCN 5A002 or 5D002. Note that this
prohibition does not apply if the U.S. person providing the assistance has a
license or is otherwise entitled to export the encryption commodities and
software in question to the foreign person(s) receiving the assistance. Note
in addition that the mere teaching or discussion of information about
cryptography, including, for example, in an academic setting, by itself would
not establish the intent described in this section, even where foreign persons
are present.

 ---

 also, see the definition of "technology" in 15 CFR 772 -

 "Technology". (General Technology Note)-- Specific information necessary for
 the "development", "production", or "use" of a product. The information takes
 the form of "technical data" or "technical assistance". Controlled "technology"
 is defined in the General Technology Note and in the Commerce Control List
 (Supplement No. 1 to part 774 of the EAR).

      N.B.: Technical assistance--May take forms such as instruction, skills
      training, working knowledge, consulting services.

      Note: "Technical assistance" may involve transfer of "technical data".

 "Technical data".--May take forms such as blueprints, plans, diagrams, models,
 formulae, tables, engineering designs and specifications, manuals and
 instructions written or recorded on other media or devices such as disk,
 tape, read-only memories.


-- 
axlotl at cyberpass.net

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From Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at BXL.DG13.cec.be  Wed Nov 19 01:00:12 1997
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at BXL.DG13.cec.be (Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at BXL.DG13.cec.be)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:00:12 +0800
Subject: Factor a 2048-bit number
In-Reply-To: <199711182155.PAA01654@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <WIN2359-971119084033-51DC*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>





>Yet, I believe that an enterprising individual will be able to factor it.

Extract from ERCIM News No. 31:

CWI factors Giant Number in Record-Time

On Wednesday, 3 September, one of the several hundred computers at CWI yield the two prime factors of the 180-digit number "see: Factor a 2048-bit number", also written as (12^167+1)/13. The factors were found after only twelve days of computation on 85 SGI/Cray computers at CWI.  One special step in the computation requiring huge memory space, was carried out at the Amsterdam Academic Computer Centre SARA.

The 180-digit number is the largest factored so far with the method employed here-the Special Number Field Sieve (SNFS).  The previous record (See:http://www.loria.fr/~zimmerma/records/), the factoring of a 167-digit number, was established last February by an international group of researchers who joined efforts through Internet.  However, this job still required two months of computing time.  In establishing the new record, CWI only used in-house resources.  The record time - a speed-up with a factor five compared to the previous record - was due to recent software improvements by CWI researchers who moreover used faster computers than their predecessors. The used code was originally developed at Oregon State University and by the Dutch mathematician Arjen Lenstra (now at Citibank, New York).  During the last few years CWI has continually improved this code, leading to several world records in this research field.  The American company Microsoft will shorty acquire the right!
!
 to use this code, in order to become more familiar with the newest factoring technologies.  With a related method, the General Number Field Sieve, the reliability of widely used cryptographic codes is tested.

Please contact:
Herman te Riele-CWI
Tel: +31 20 592 4106
E-mail: Herman.te.Riele at cwi.nl






From jito at eccosys.com  Wed Nov 19 01:06:04 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:06:04 +0800
Subject: The Japanese Media as Political Enforcement
In-Reply-To: <199711171623.QAA01215@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711190900.SAA17945@eccosys.com>



I'm not sure exactly how the media works in the US, but it might be
helpful for people to understand how politics and media work in Japan.

The politicians and lobby groups all have access to the media.
They hire investigators, photographers and use all kinds of resources
to collect dirt about their political foes. Then, when they need
to put pressure on someone, they go to the sleazy Japanese media
with the dirt and saturate the media with the dirt.

When one gets involved in business or any other activity in Japan,
one chooses either to stay out of the media or use it. Once one
get into the media and people start paying attention to you, the
attention increases. This attention helps you get loans from banks,
get jobs, etc. People think that if you are in media, it is difficult
to do shady things like rip people off, go bankrupt, or run away.
The media keeps writing lots of stuff about you as long as you keep
doing new stuff. At a certain point, after they start running out of
good things to day, they switch and start tearing you apart. That
way, they get twice the media miles out of one person.

The general structure is that your political foes keep releasing
bad stuff about you and minor magazines publish this stuff. As
soon as the political pressure gets too much or the media decides
you are a bore, a public reputation capital bankruptcy occurs
and everyone tears you apart. This has happened to almost every
major modern leader in Japan.

I realize that my public reputation capital in Japan has no
value or meaning on the Net, but it does affect what I can do
on the Net. I am currently very exposed in the media in Japan.
I regularly appear in the Newspapers, TV, Magazines and public
events. I am still not a "rock star" but I am enough of a public
figure so that people bash me publicly and recognize me on the
street. Magazines write about my private life and feel that
"who I am going out with" is worth a headline. In this state,
I have the security of being under a bright light that keeps
direct attacks away, but it makes me very vulnerable to indirect
attacks. Investigators ask my friends whether I take drugs, drive drunk,
have divorced parents... anything. So... To retain my current
position from where I am launching my assault on a bad structure,
I have to cover myself with the media and there I have to comply
with the general legal and moral norms of Japanese society.

Luckily, bashing the bad guys in government and industry is OK
as long as you win. Unfortunately, I can not take drugs, drive
drunk, be a terrorist, or... probably be a hardline cypherpunk.

My currently strategy is to protect my public position and get
as many "torso shots" as possible with my publicly acceptable weapon
before I get knocked down. I will then resort to the use of
"unauthorized weapons".

I am not out to destroy the government or industry. I'm trying
to cure the cancer that has developed. I have a feeling Japan
may die of this cancer, but at least I won't have been a part
of the cancer. and... if Japan dies of the cancer, hey, we can
all build the next Japan.

Sorry to write such a "self-oriented" message. I just wanted
to explain why I am appear very conservative for a cypherpunk
wannabe.

- Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From manager at musicblvd.com  Wed Nov 19 17:17:03 1997
From: manager at musicblvd.com (http://www.musicblvd.com/)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:17:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: News from Music Boulevard
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971119154731.007bf8a0@mail.sparknet.net>



Dear Music Boulevard Shopper,

Music Boulevard is jumping with activity! We've been working hard the
past few months to add new features to the store to improve your
shopping experience at www.musicblvd.com.  In addition, we continue to
offer competitive prices on new releases and Billboard hits, and we
strive to provide you with the quality information and service you need
to find the music you want.

Please come visit us and check out these new improvements as well as
our *HOLIDAY* gift ideas, which will make this year's holiday shopping
a piece of cake!  We're even extending our $1 SHIPPING offer (on all
U.S. orders) to make it more convenient for you to send the gift of
music to all your family and friends.

In the coming weeks, we'll be unveiling more exciting features and
specials which we promise to let you know about. As always, we
encourage you to send us your feedback, comments or questions to
info at musicblvd.com, and we look forward to seeing you again soon on
Music Boulevard.

Sincerely,

The Staff of Music Boulevard 
--------------------------------

TODAY'S CONTENTS

1. Store Features
2. Special Sales
3. New Releases
4. Advance Order Items
5. An Online Music Exclusive!

---------------------------
STORE FEATURES 
---------------------------

*ONE DOLLAR SHIPPING - we'll ship any amount anywhere in the U.S. for
just one dollar!
*GIFT SHIPPING - Add a personalized note when you send a gift from
Music Boulevard.
*GIFT CERTIFICATES - When you don't know what to get 'em -- send a
cyber-gift certificate.

---------------------------
SPECIAL SALES
---------------------------

*HOLIDAY MUSIC - Five genres worth of festive Holiday music selections.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/mrkt/holiday.txt

*BOXED SETS ON SALE _ GREAT gift ideas for every musical taste.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/mrkt/boxsets.txt

*Deutsche Grammophon "Essentials" sale - 75 must have titles from the
legendary classical label.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/lists/cidg.txt

*100 ESSENTIAL JAZZ RECORDINGS - JazzCentralStation.com selected the
best albums ever!
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/lists/jzhu.txt

*GREATEST HITS - all the Best Greatest Hits titles from the Best
Selling Artists.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/mrkt/greatest.txt

*Cool stuff from MTV - Music Boulevard is the online store for MTV and
VH1. Check out the merchandise for sale.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/main/mtv/catalog.tx
t 

---------------------------
NEW RELEASES
---------------------------
"Gold and Platinum" -The Ultimate Rock Box.  A Music Boulevard online
exclusive.  The ultimate gift for the rock fan.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/mrkt/ultimaterock.t
xt

Led Zeppelin - "BBC Sessions".  Rescued from the vault, 2 CD's for 18.99
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_453720

Celine Dion - "Let's Talk About Love"
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_457293

Metallica - "Re-Load".  The second half is here!
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_452809

Kenny G - "Greatest Hits"
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_452404

---------------------------
ADVANCE ORDER TITLES
---------------------------
Get 'em before they're hot!  All these CDs can be ordered in advance
and arrive at your door the day of release:

Garth Brooks - "Sevens". He's back with a new one at last! 11/25
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_462198

Babyface - "MTV Unplugged" 11/25 
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_457297

Sublime - "Second Hand Smoke" 11/25
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_455798

Diana Princess of Wales - "The Tribute Album" 12/02
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_461933

Bryan Adams - "Unplugged" 12/09
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_462709

---------------------------
AN ONLINE MUSIC EXCLUSIVE!
---------------------------

We've been working with one of our favorite bands, The Verve Pipe
(http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_42_168858), to bring you a
special offer exclusively for online music fans. Here's what they asked
us to tell you:

"A few weeks ago we were approached with an opportunity that we loved.
We learned about a cool new technology now available from AT&T, that
brings our music directly to our fans. 

We asked for the cooperation of both our label RCA/BMG, and our
publisher EMI, to allow us to deliver a special live performance track
in its entirety. As many of you know, the Internet has been an huge
part of our ongoing communication with you.  

One of our favorite songs, "Reverend Girl", from our album "Villains",
was recorded live at the State Theater in Kalamazoo, MI. We were very
happy with the quality of the recording and performance of that night.
After a lot of thought, we chose this live track to make available to
you in its entirety -- at no cost! 

We have been assured by the folks at AT&T that the quality of the
download is as good as the original live recording, and it will only be
available for a limited time through our web site:
http://www.thevervepipe.com 

We hope you enjoy and thanks to all."

The Verve Pipe 

---------------------------
TO UNSUBSCRIBE  
---------------------------

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send an Email to:
remove-musicblvd at sparklist.com
and you will automatically be removed from this list.


T H A N K S  F O R  S H O P P I N G  A T  M U S I C  B O U L E V A R D !





From nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus  Wed Nov 19 02:40:25 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:40:25 +0800
Subject: Disposable Remailers
Message-ID: <199711191030.LAA17934@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jonathan Wienke wrote:
>Woodwose (who appears to have borrowed my last name for his "True Name")
>appears to have done a variation of this--except that if there are
>complaints about messages being sent from woodwose at mailexcite.com, I doubt
>anything will happen other than the woodwose account at mailexcite.com
>being closed.  Hence, his "disposable remailer" claim.  Any shmuck can log
>on and input a fake name, address, and demographic data to create a new
>account at hotmail, mailexcite, or juno.  In this way, as existing
>remailers are harassed out of existence, new ones can be created on a daily
>or hourly basis.  It would probably be interesting to find out how much
>info these outfits collect (cookies, etc.) that could be definitively
>linked to a True Name.

I played around with Hotmail recently, and I didn't pick up any new cookies 
in my cookies file.  The only distinguishing information that Hotmail seems 
to collect (aside from the demographic info you feed them when you open an 
account) is the IP address you log in from.  A public proxy is sufficient to 
shield your IP address.  I created the account from one IP address and sent 
the email during a separate session from another IP address.  The 
X-Originating-IP header showed only the second address.  I don't know if 
Hotmail keeps track of all IP addresses that access each account.

Question: can anyone suggest some information/studies regarding the security 
of public proxies?

Thanks.

Nerthus

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From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Wed Nov 19 03:13:06 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:13:06 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971119064203.0b9f46a8@pop.mindspring.com>



At 10:27 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>In <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e at pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/18/97 
>   at 11:34 PM, Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf at mindspring.com> said:

>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).

>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border. 

>And this would be a BadThing(TM)??

        It would be a good thing. 

        But the former was postulating civil rights to medical care and such. 

        I mentioned constitutional rights. Once they are here they here
they are entitled to a fair trial before being kicked out. And as to bail,
if they are illegally here, what is possibly the risk of flight? To Mexico?
Is not that the point? 

        That is why the INS gives them a trial date and releases them as
they must be treated as right-protected citizens. And the objection to
release is fleeing juristidiction under the law. It is a Catch-22. 

        Cheech being born in East LA to the contrary not withstanding. The
movie protested reality after it was gone. (If it was Chong, the facts do
not change.) 




-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From jk at stallion.ee  Wed Nov 19 03:46:06 1997
From: jk at stallion.ee (Jyri Kaljundi)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:46:06 +0800
Subject: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
In-Reply-To: <199711190530.VAA02158@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971119133754.26754H-100000@nebula>



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> It has a screwy "non-commercial use only, AT&T gets everything, you
> get nothing" license, but otherwise it looks interesting.

Someone forgot to make it available outside the US, please someone drop it
at replay or some other well-equipped crypto site.

Jyri Kaljundi
jk at stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Wed Nov 19 03:47:33 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:47:33 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971119072643.0b9f333e@pop.mindspring.com>



At 09:39 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 9:58 PM -0700 11/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>>Well at one time there was a demand for cheap labor by US industry that
>>supported the infux of immagrents. In modern times their is no such demand
>>( if there were we have plenty of bums on welfare that can fill this need)
>
>This is actually not the case. I live between Santa Cruz and Salinas and
>Monterey, home to some of the most fertile soil in the world (most of the
>lettuce, strawberries, artichokes, and other vegetables consumed in the
>U.S. is/are grown within 30 miles of me). Every day I see stoop laborers,
>up from Jalisco or Michuchan or other provinces, glad to make more in a few
>months here than they make in a few years back in Mexico.
>
>And every day I see bums, drifters, winos, layabouts, and derelicts,
>holding up their pathetic "Will work for food" signs. (Which are lies, of
>course. Anyone trying to get some decent work out of these bums will find
>zilch.)
>
>I saw a great bumper sticker on the back of a truck filled with spray
>painting gear. Driven by a black guy, interesting enough. It said:
>
>"I _do_ work for food." 

        Which is precisely the issue. The US was and is dedicated to people
who will do what they can without restriction. 

        I'll take 38 wetback greasers who will work and escort every bum to
the Mexican border and be proud to call those beaners Americans. (Did I
overdo the namecalling?)

        Just because those folks south of the border get their jollies
producing a dozen kids does not obligate me in the least. If they produce
productive people, fine. If they once show up in the frigging welfare line,
I'll show them the way to Mexico City not San Jose. 

        ONLY if they HATE welfare and public services are they welcome. If
there were such a filter at the border that worked both ways I would have it. 

        This is not pie in the sky platitudes. We do not live in the sky.
This is reality. It is real nasty down here. Wishes are not fact. Piety
ain't jack shit. 

        I appreciate the woman's desire for the best treatment for her
child at the moment of birth. But for the long term, if they like the US
system so damned much let them institute it in Mexico. 

        If they want the benefits of the US system them duplicate it in
Mexico. Do not ever pretend to wanting the best of both worlds where you
can have two digit offspring in Mexico and the US has to pay for it. 

        We need to get the message to them, that if you can't keep your fly
shut and your legs crossed the US is not liable for your prurient
interests, period, next question, over. 

        We do not give a rat's ass how many Vatican approved babies you
produce. your recourse is not in the US. If their damned economic system
will not support them, that is not the responsibility of the US and do not
really give a rat's ass if there are automatic weapons that kill on sight
at the border. 

        The US did not create Mexico's problems, Mexico did. If they need
guns to correct it, they know where to get them. If they like the Mexican
system (and we know they do) and want to use the US, reload those border
guns. 

>>but there is a demand for cheap votes. The current Statest have been
>>watching their power base erroding over the years as more and more
>>Americans refuse to beleive thier socialist lies. The only way that they
>>can continue in power is to import new voters who are easier to hoodwink
>>and cheaper to buy. Confermation of this policy can be seen in the
>>behavior of the INS durring the last election cycle where large numbers of
>>immigrants were naturalized before the elections.

>By the way, this massive purchase of votes is now being rolled back.
>Immigration is planning to reverse many of these "instant citizenship"
>deals. Too late to have an effect on Clinton's '96 election, but nothing
>could have saved Dole.

        Fornicate Dole and the elephant he rode in on. 

        The vote needs be a quid pro quo other than birth and living. 



-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Wed Nov 19 03:52:59 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:52:59 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971119073427.0e3f00ec@pop.mindspring.com>



At 09:52 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>>I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>>due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>>they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

>It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

>(Remember those, "Aliens, remember that you must report to the Alien
>Landing Terminal every January.")

>No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
>perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
>Green Card.

        "Minor" point here. They are required to return on the hearing date
after arrainment. 

        Would you care to guess just how many illegals appear for the
hearing? 

        Can you tell the difference between legals and illegals? and if so
how?

-=-=-
The difference between Wiesenthal and Zundel is the latter does not charge
$90,000US a year to use his name. 






From rdl at mit.edu  Wed Nov 19 04:09:36 1997
From: rdl at mit.edu (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:09:36 +0800
Subject: Ryan's eternity DDS (Re: technical issues of the list)
In-Reply-To: <199711182158.VAA01101@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711191203.HAA16737@the-great-machine.mit.edu>



Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.ul> writes:
> Ryan Lackey <rdl at mit.edu> writes:
> > I'm pretty sure all 5 years fit on one cd-rom -- I've been using 4
> > years as an eternity dds dataset, along with some other stuff, and I
> > think it is less than 500mb, although one of the problems with my
> > current eternity file system under linux is that there is no way of
> > telling how big a directory is (yay VFS kludges).
> 
> Sounds like you are building a file system interface to a distributed
> data store, cool.  Want to give us a brief description of what it does?
> I know I'd be interested, I'm sure others would too.
> 
> Adam

I've mostly just used postgres, a db, for doing database stuff, and kludged
together a disgusting collection of kernel patches and usermode processes to
make data appear as a directory structure in a modified version of the
ext2fs (actually, most if it is in the VFS level as it should be, but I didn't
know enough about it when I started to cleanly separate the two.  Oh well).

It's not distributed, it's not reliable, it's not secure.  It's just me 
learning
how to play with virtual file systems.  And unfortunately most of the code 
is stolen from commercial/proprietary software, so I can't really release it.

My current Eternity DDS plan is to have a linux file system and an http
interface to the data store up in the first incarnation.  I'm at the stage
of playing with technology for the interface layer, and having a vaguely
workable plan for inter-server communication.  Once I have something which
can be demonstrated, I'll post an announcement to the technical people who
would be interested.

I've entered the Eternity DDS idea into a MIT-sponsored new business
competition, etc.

My current Eternity homepage is at http://sof.mit.edu/eternity/, although
it's rather sparse.
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl at mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/		







From frissell at panix.com  Wed Nov 19 04:14:54 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:14:54 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b09803760c07@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.971119065534.4102B-100000@panix.com>




On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> It's time to "Just Say No" to the U.N. The John Birch Society makes more
> sense every day.

US out of the UN and UN out of the US.

DCF






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Nov 19 04:24:05 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:24:05 +0800
Subject: New Idea to Generate Random Numbers
In-Reply-To: <199711190227.CAA114150@out2.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <eucege20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



"James F. Marshall" <marshall at ibm.net> writes:

> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:36:08 -0500, Edupage Editors wrote:
>
> >RANDOMLY GROOVY
> >Scientists at Silicon Graphics have taken the mesmerizing flow of the lava
> >lamp to the next level of utility -- using the favorite fixtures of the '60s
> >to generate truly random numbers, something computers cannot do.  The
> >process involves using a digital camera to snap periodic shots of six oozing
> >cylinders, combining those images with electronic noise and converting it
> >into 1s and 0s, and then using the Secure Hash Algorithm from the National
> >Institute of Standards and Technologies to compress and scramble the binary
> >string to create a seed value for a standard random-number generator.
> >(Scientific American Nov 97)
>
> How do I implement this at home?  ;*)

I've got a lava lamp as well as a wave machine.  I have grave doubts that
they're very random.  I think I see recurring patterns, making the bit
stream somewhat predictable.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Nov 19 04:52:17 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:52:17 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120092606.11412A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199711190932.JAA00731@server.test.net>




Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> writes:
> While trying to submit the cypherpunks.to website to a few search engines,
> I noticed that none of them seems to support indexing of https URL's. Is
> anybody here aware of a search engine that indexes secure web pages? And
> if there is no such search engine, what are the thoughts on using https to
> deliberately keep pages out of indices?

One thing you could do is to have your server use http (no s) iff the
connection comes from a known search engine.  Reasonably easy to do --
set up an http server, and block all sites, and put in allow
directives for the search engines.

It's not as if you're insisting on client certs for the HTTPS server.

Adam






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 19 04:56:03 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:56:03 +0800
Subject: Bob Hettinga's attention surplus disorder
Message-ID: <199711191251.NAA29914@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Several people have commented about Bob Hettinga's verbosity,
Thompsonesque writing style, and apparent limitless supply of bubbly
energy.

Sometime ago during a discussion of ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder)
Bob told his story on the list.  He explained that he had had ADD, but
was now on amphetamines to counteract this, and was feeling much
better.  It was quite brave of him to discuss this openly.

I suspect what we are seeing is that the amphetamines are more than
counteracting his putative ADD problems, to the extent that he has
more energy than normal to write long winded Thompsonesque rants, the
content of which could be more clearly expressed in a treatise 1/10th
the size.

Impatience is a useful trait, because it causes one to reconsider the
efficiency of approaches.  Most of us simply don't have the patience
to even read the voluminous posts of Bob's to locate the actual
content amidst the colorful metaphors (rocket launchers, snot covered
gun barrels, etc).

No offense to Bob, but I think his effectiveness would improve if he
let off the amphetamines a touch.

Amad3us

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WlCKoTWad0Y=
=xiE5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov 19 05:10:30 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:10:30 +0800
Subject: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971119133754.26754H-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120135737.11686C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, John Gilmore wrote:
> 
> > It has a screwy "non-commercial use only, AT&T gets everything, you
> > get nothing" license, but otherwise it looks interesting.
> 
> Someone forgot to make it available outside the US, please someone drop it
> at replay or some other well-equipped crypto site.

That is unlikely to  happen. The copies are  personalized.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov 19 05:25:14 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:25:14 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <199711190932.JAA00731@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120140025.11686D-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> One thing you could do is to have your server use http (no s) iff the
> connection comes from a known search engine.  Reasonably easy to do --
> set up an http server, and block all sites, and put in allow
> directives for the search engines.

Then the search engine would list the wrong URL. The idea is to get
people to use crypto. In  fact, as soon as I find the time, cypherpunks.to
will reject weak crypto browsers and provide those unfortunate enough to
use such a browser with pointers to upgrade options.

 > It's not as if you're insisting on client certs for the HTTPS
server.

Actually, there are pages on the server that do require client certs.
Of course these pages need not be listed  in any search engine. But now
that you mention it, it might be fun to set up an automated enrollment
page and require client certs for everything.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Nov 19 05:47:09 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:47:09 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4707] Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711190552.OAA16422@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <5J1ege22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Joichi Ito <jito at eccosys.com> writes:

> At 21:21 97/11/18 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> >
> > >who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the
> "Chobetsu"
> > >that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering
> to the
> > >"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the
> often
> > >rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
> > >going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
> > >current
> > >RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
> > >kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm
> going to
> > >receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but fo
> > ...
> >
> > As I said earlier, Richelson's comprehensive study of foreign intelligence
> > agencies describes it as Chobetsu, as does Hersh. Perhaps there is an issue
> > of transliteration here?
> >
>
> Tim... Interesting. It sounds like the same organization I am talking about,
> but I didn't know it was part of the defense force. I will ask a few experts
> and back back to you if I find out more.

Once again, Ito-san demonstrates that he's an ignorant uneducated buffoon,
on par with the pathologial liar Charlie Platt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From ulf at fitug.de  Wed Nov 19 05:50:31 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:50:31 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <199711190932.JAA00731@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <9711191344.AA49722@public.uni-hamburg.de>



> One thing you could do is to have your server use http (no s) iff the
> connection comes from a known search engine.

Why not set up http pages with just "description" and "keywords" headers
for the search engines, and a link to the https page for users that
come from the search engine?






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 19 06:07:09 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:07:09 +0800
Subject: Nobuki Nakatuji
Message-ID: <199711191358.OAA06580@basement.replay.com>



Nobuki Nakatuji, though lesser known, is like Monty Cantsin and 
Luther Blissett, well-burnished pseudonyms used by wads of 
artistes who believe them to be more artful than hoary Anonymous. 
Globalists are producing variations of nom-de-plumes to scribe a 
message to the clued - duh, in Imperialist Yanklish.

Reputation capital and persistent identity convince only the
duh-speakers who believe insider secrets, insider lies of hot IPOs, 
and MISTY/RSA chips ostensibly made in JP and NDA-ed to the 
gullible by pseudo-chipper fab-lab MD-stingmasters.







From builders at firstgear.com  Wed Nov 19 22:28:30 1997
From: builders at firstgear.com (builders at firstgear.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:28:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CABLE descrambler plans!
Message-ID: <199611191328.NAA04661@mail.firstgear.com>


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OppBuilders







From jito at eccosys.com  Wed Nov 19 06:29:28 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:29:28 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <199711190932.JAA00731@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711191421.XAA23981@eccosys.com>



Lucky, Infoseek will actually store id/passwords to get into
sites that it really wants to index. I've forwarded your question
to the infoseek list. I'll let you know what I find out about https.

 - Joi


>  > It's not as if you're insisting on client certs for the HTTPS
> server.
> 
> Actually, there are pages on the server that do require client certs.
> Of course these pages need not be listed  in any search engine. But now
> that you mention it, it might be fun to set up an automated enrollment
> page and require client certs for everything.
> 
> -- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
> 
> 
> 
--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From jongalt at pinn.net  Wed Nov 19 06:41:59 1997
From: jongalt at pinn.net (Jon Galt)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:41:59 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eb0981fb7af46@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971119091809.13910B-100000@everest.pinn.net>



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
> paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?
> 
> --Tim May

I have read quite a few of your messages related to this, Tim, and I find 
it quite interesting that the quintessential Crypto Anarchist has such a 
conservative attitude.

Long drawn out court cases are not "paid for by taxpayers".  They are 
paid for by the government, which happens to have stolen the funds from 
its victims (taxpayers).

Why does the fact that they (the government) have initiated force against 
you (or stolen from / taxed you) somehow imply that they now have an 
obligation to further their crimes by initiating force against others?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt at pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________






From ptrei at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 19 07:32:35 1997
From: ptrei at hotmail.com (Peter trei)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:32:35 +0800
Subject: Factor a 2048 bit number
Message-ID: <19971119151527.7288.qmail@hotmail.com>



>Someone styling themselves as "Monty Cantsin" writes:

>This number is the product of two large primes:
>[big number deleted]

>Yet, I believe that an enterprising individual will be able to factor 
>it.
>Monty Cantsin

If your belief has any basis in reality, I'd like to hear what it
is. Schneier gives estimates for factoring 2048 bit numbers using
both the General Number Field Sieve and the Special Number Field
Sieve. SNFS is by far the fastest, and with that it would take
4*10^14 MIPS-years.

All of the computer power expended in the RSA Symmetric Key 
Challenges (DES, RC5-56, etc) up to this point amount to, 
generously, 10^7 MIPS-years. This is only one forty-millionth 
of power needed.

It's been said that 'Those who will not do arithmetic are doomed
to speak nonsense.' You are proving the truth of this.

RSA has a substantial prize for factoring much smaller numbers. It's
estimated, for example, that RSA-155 (about 512 bits), could be
factored in 500,000 MIPS-years.

Peter Trei
ptrei at hotmail.com
  


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From adam at homeport.org  Wed Nov 19 07:51:23 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:51:23 +0800
Subject: cryptx spam - des-based program.
In-Reply-To: <347182CF.DA81779@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <199711191531.KAA07810@homeport.org>



As the maintainer of the free crypto libraries page
(www.homeport.org/~adam/crypto), I'm strongly tempted to refuse to add
any new library whose name starts with crypt.

Adam

Ian Grigg wrote:
| Bill Stewart said:
| > I got spammed by someone selling Cryptx, a DES-based encryption program.
| 
| Sheez, not only spam, but perverting our good name!  Cryptix is good
| strong stuff, they are simply hoping to confuse customers by dropping a
| vowel.
| 
| -- 
| iang                                      systemics.com
| 
| FP: 1189 4417 F202 5DBD  5DF3 4FCD 3685 FDDE on pgp.com
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From marmac at online-success.com  Thu Nov 20 00:16:26 1997
From: marmac at online-success.com (marmac at online-success.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:16:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Online Success Direct E-Mail: Get Paid to Advertise!
Message-ID: <wtd35245883246yb245>


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From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Nov 19 08:18:21 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:18:21 +0800
Subject: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120135737.11686C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971119110903.2266B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>



On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> That is unlikely to  happen. The copies are  personalized.

In what way?  If two people get copies of it and then diff them, the
personalizations are obvious.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From briandaniels at mindspring.com  Wed Nov 19 08:21:56 1997
From: briandaniels at mindspring.com (Brian the Obscure)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:21:56 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>



At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>
>--Tim May

Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.

It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't so
fortunate.

--Brian


Brian Daniels               | Gremlins squashed, bit-buckets emptied,
briandaniels at mindspring.com | webs woven&patched, cables untangled,
                            | users placated (extra fee), demons
                            | invoked&dispelled, hacks while you wait!
		http://www.mindspring.com/~briandaniels

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

mQENAzQh2VwAAAEH/2dBsIVIAB7fx62ylTAfa2JBgSmy3pLyywtBZj88TY/EcoB5
A7wDKsh53VjqaKM9pL1F4JQ/dxVF96lhh7QMSmWB1nqa4e/FWld2f/VqZxKSHu/9
9QDW5YgydAI/0S9wBxwefpNg/Dd9PvtJwkLlE5BtBcbzVSzc9cGPpFIs/g2914QX
uXTPhjNrqreC+7IBZAfTqv7LFO7NnACBS4A61/AGwey4X15gN1TzPBwgahK+SL4U
0+45TJfEg46MdGAv7+vs16u/5+l/e3eoCgySh6yKP/GQ+lV4h1u3+DztCRX5ypJz
DmXlCia5f4DuHXbJWLp2kA7D1rxsntS5x1I74x0ABRG0LkJyaWFuIEwuIERhbmll
bHMgPGJyaWFuZGFuaWVsc0BtaW5kc3ByaW5nLmNvbT4=
=YgZn
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From craffert at ml.com  Wed Nov 19 08:52:08 1997
From: craffert at ml.com (Colin Rafferty)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:52:08 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <ocr4t58q25f.fsf@ml.com>



Tim May writes:
> At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>> I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>> due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>> they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

> It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

> No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
> perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
> Green Card.

How do you know that someone is not a citizen?  My mother-in-law has no
green card, can barely speak English, yet can legally stay in the US for 
as long as she likes.

Of course, that's because she has been a US citizen for over thirty years.

> I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
> paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?

How do we know that you are in this country legally?  The last time you
were outdoors, would you have been able to prove that you are in this
country legally?

Innocent until proven guilty.  Unless he speaks Spanish.

It's called the Sixth Amendment, in case you weren't paying attention.

-- 
Colin






From lse at saint-elie.com  Wed Nov 19 08:55:48 1997
From: lse at saint-elie.com (Luc Saint-Elie)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:55:48 +0800
Subject: Looking for a Web anonymiser
In-Reply-To: <347182CF.DA81779@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971119173241.0081c920@mail.imaginet.fr>



Hello,

I'm in great need for a web anonymiser supporting https connections (that's
not alas the case for excellent www.anonymiser.com)






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Wed Nov 19 09:01:41 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:01:41 +0800
Subject: Why Does the CAUCE Oppose Privacy and Anonymity? (was: Re: RESULT: com
Message-ID: <199711191631.IAA12085@sirius.infonex.com>



krueger at cs.umn.edu (Alan Krueger) wrote:

> >>ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> >>
> >>>Anonymity has value that is greater than the value of CAUCE.
> >
> >Could someone help a rookie here?  What's CAUCE and how does
> >it relate to anonymity.
>  
> It doesn't, per se, but a number of people choose to believe that.  CAUCE
> is the Coalition Against Unsolicted Commercial Email and supports the
> banning of such unsolicited advertisements.  See their web page at
> http://www.cauce.org/ for more information.  
>  
> The yelling is about the proposed (now ratified) robo-moderation policy
> for the *newsgroup* to discuss CAUCE issues, comp.org.cauce, which requires
> that you post with a deliverable email address.  This was supposed to
> keep belligerant spammers and trolls from posting to the group without
> having some kind of valid contact address.  This was not supposed to be
> anti-privacy, anti-munging, or anti-anonymity, though that is what seems
> to be the big issue many people were having with it.

That makes about as much sense as holding a rally to protest auto theft and
requiring that each attendee leave his car UNLOCKED in the parking lot while
attending.  In this case, the price of admission to this "anti-UCE party" is
to contribute one's e-mail address to the UCErs' mailing lists!

And what, exactly, is the point of requiring "belligerant spammers and 
trolls" to post with a valid e-mail address?  Unless they're planning to
spam or mailbomb each other, they are the ones who have the least to fear
from publicly broadcasting their e-mail addresses on a worldwide NG for the
address harvesters to collect and exploit. 






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Nov 19 09:05:16 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:05:16 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120140025.11686D-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199711191459.OAA02975@server.test.net>




Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> writes:
> On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > 
> > One thing you could do is to have your server use http (no s) iff the
> > connection comes from a known search engine.  Reasonably easy to do --
> > set up an http server, and block all sites, and put in allow
> > directives for the search engines.
> 
> Then the search engine would list the wrong URL. 

Yes; so make the failure page from your http server say: connect to
https://www.cypherpunks.to.

More elegant, but a bit more difficult, would be to do the right
thing.

That is: 

1. connection on https port & coming from *.altavista.com allow.
2. connection on https port & coming from somewhere else insist on SSL

(Would this work?  Wander if their spider will talk to https port with
http?)

> The idea is to get people to use crypto. In fact, as soon as I find
> the time, cypherpunks.to will reject weak crypto browsers and
> provide those unfortunate enough to use such a browser with pointers
> to upgrade options.

Kewl.  Anyone know where those patches to convert for netscape 40 bit
crippleware to 128 bit crypto are?

Save download time -- a version 4 browser is quite large to download.

Adam






From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 19 09:12:05 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:12:05 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711191648.LAA05485@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8 at pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels at mindspring.com> said:

>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>
>>--Tim May

>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.

>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>so fortunate.

<sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.

This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.

It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
citizens in poverty.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 19 09:20:12 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:20:12 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <ocr4t58q25f.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <199711191658.LAA05592@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <ocr4t58q25f.fsf at ml.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 11:28 AM, Colin Rafferty <craffert at ml.com> said:

>Tim May writes:
>> At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>>> I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>>> due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>>> they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

>> It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

>> No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
>> perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
>> Green Card.

>How do you know that someone is not a citizen?  My mother-in-law has no
>green card, can barely speak English, yet can legally stay in the US for 
>as long as she likes.

>Of course, that's because she has been a US citizen for over thirty
>years.

>> I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
>> paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?

>How do we know that you are in this country legally?  The last time you
>were outdoors, would you have been able to prove that you are in this
>country legally?

>Innocent until proven guilty.  Unless he speaks Spanish.

>It's called the Sixth Amendment, in case you weren't paying attention.

This is a problem.

How do you get rid of the illegals without infringing on the rights of the
citizens?

FWIW I have been strongly against the various laws and inititives
mandating ID for the citizen units especially the push for a national ID.
Curtailing the rights of the citizens to solve a "problem" has never been
a proper approach as it leads to invented "problems" for the sole purpose
of enacting the "solution".

IMNSHO think that the various boarder states should put the National Guard
on the boarder to keep them out. Still doesn't resolve the problem of the
ones that are already here.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 19 09:28:02 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:28:02 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <199711191459.OAA02975@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711191715.MAA05794@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711191459.OAA02975 at server.test.net>, on 11/19/97 
   at 02:59 PM, Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Kewl.  Anyone know where those patches to convert for netscape 40 bit
>crippleware to 128 bit crypto are?

>Save download time -- a version 4 browser is quite large to download.

ftp://ftp.replay.com has the patches.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 19 09:29:50 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:29:50 +0800
Subject: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119081153.0324597c@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I just heard on the news that Bill Clinton has been selling the right
to be buried in Arlington National Cemetery (and possibly other
military cemeteries) to campaign contributors.  The story originally
broke in the latest edition of Insight magazine yesterday.  I think
our Maximum Leader has stooped to a new level of sleaze, and deserves
the revulsion of veterans everywhere.
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=Z7kj
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Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From craffert at ml.com  Wed Nov 19 09:33:07 1997
From: craffert at ml.com (Colin Rafferty)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:33:07 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711191648.LAA05485@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <ocryb2koljs.fsf@ml.com>



William H Geiger writes:

> It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.

Actually, it is.

-- 
Colin






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 19 09:46:08 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:46:08 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb091012f0380@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v04002701b098c46a2cda@[139.167.130.248]>



At 7:08 am -0500 on 11/14/97, frissell at panix.com wrote:


> >> But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I
> >> thought.
> >>
> >> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> >
> >was *not* a threat against a judge?
> >
> >Right, Tim, if you say so.
>
> The phrase "capital crime" (literaly "head crime") just means "worst
>crime".
> It does not imply punishment.  Punishment for capital crimes varies with
>time
> and place.  Saying someone is guilty of an infamous crime is not a death
> threat.  It's not even a death threat to say, "I think X should be arrested,
> tried by a court, and gassed."  You are merely expressing opinions about
> criminal guilt and perhaps capital punishment but you are not making a
> threat.

C'mon, Duncan, you know you're equivocating here, and you know better.

Tim says we're going to war. He says that a judge commits a capital crime,
by whatever definition he, or you, choose to use. Most people, and it
doesn't have to be you, or me, or even Tim himself, would call that a
threat, and, in the above case, against a judge. "Most people" especially
includes those folks with aptly-named "criminal justice" degrees, too much
military hardware and not enough understanding of rhetorical nuance.
*That's* the kind of threat Tim made, and the kind of people who will
interpret it.

At this point, I guess, it's moot. Tim can bay at the moon all he wants. It
is, after all, a free country. "Consider it evolution in action", as Tim's
favorite Pournelle quote goes.

But, up until he made that remark, I still had some respect for him. What
he said there was the breaking branch which turned loose this entire
landslide of disrepect for him on my part. As far as I was concerned, he
crossed the border into loonyland, and I decided to call him it. "Call a
spade a spade." Or a loon a loon.

Now, frankly, Tim still says stuff here worth reading, but I'm finding,
more and more, that other people say the same things I used to hear him
say, and they say it much better. At the moment, I expect, someday, to put
him in my own killfile, just like Chrispin, or Vulis, or Detweiller/Nuri,
or even poor Phill Hallam, who can't help himself ;-), just to keep me from
going off on him like I did this time. I'll try to restrain myself a little
bit better in the meantime.

> Tim was *not* threatening to set up his own court and try anyone himself and
> carry out a punishment.

No, he said that war was coming, and that a sitting judge had committed a
capital crime. You figure it out.

> >> You sicken me.
> >
> >Um, well... Take a pill, maybe?
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Bob Hettinga
>
> Bob, Tim's is just a different approach.  It shouldn't sicken you.

Watch your attributions, there, Duncan. Tim's the one who needs to take a
pill, not me.

I'm fine. I *was* mildly apoplectic, but I feel *much* better, now. :-).

> Tim and I
> are members of the same birth cohort and I think you are a little bit
>younger
> but it seems to me that he has absorbed the major message of modern
>education
> better.  You know -- Multi Culturalism.  Or as Mao said "let a thousand
> flowers bloom".  Tim's a very Multi Culti guy.  Individuation.  Big time.
> Micro Cultures.  He believes in letting other people explore the rich
> diversity of their lives and experiences as long as they let him do the
>same.
>  He's trying to make sure that everyone is aware that Multi Culturalism is
> *real*.  Too many proponents of same treat it as some bland mush.  Tim is
> keeping them aware of the spice.
>
> Or as my grandfather said "It doesn't matter what your race, creed or color
> is.  You can still be a son of a bitch."  True equality requires true
> liberty.

I agree with everything you said there, Duncan. All of it. Except the part
where Tim, metaphorically or not, calmly goes out into the street one nice
afternoon and throws rocks at cop cars to get their attention about how
fascist they all are.

That's not revolution. It's the act of a loon.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From jk at stallion.ee  Wed Nov 19 09:47:37 1997
From: jk at stallion.ee (Jyri Kaljundi)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:47:37 +0800
Subject: OECD E-Commerce web
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971119193033.26754a-100000@nebula>




I don't remember if it was already mentioned, but the OECD E-Commerce
conference is also being broadcast using Realaudio/Realvideo by EUNet. 
The web page is at http://www.turku.eu.net/

(And the official conference web is at:
http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/e-comm/index.htm
)

Jyri Kaljundi
jk at stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 19 09:48:51 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:48:51 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711142245.QAA05891@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04002760b098ab8f55d5@[139.167.130.248]>



At 5:43 pm -0500 on 11/13/97, Monty wrote:

> Are you asking me to use Foucault's line without giving him credit?
> That doesn't seem right to me.

This is a red herring. What I said about Foucault having a single right
opinion out of an otherwise ungainly pile of dreck has nothing to do with
whether or not you should cite him as an influence.


> BTW, how much of Foucault have you actually read?  I am generally
> unfamiliar with his work, but I have a sinking feeling the same can be
> said for certain of his critics.

Frankly, with most philosophers, you have to spend so much time reading and
rereading what they say (Kant is a good example) that you have to choose
who you read a little better than that. That is, life is too short to read
some philosophers. :-).

I suggest that you read Foucault's actual philosophical works yourself,
instead of his for-public-consumption essays, and see how far you get
before throwing it against the wall. Most of my opinions about Foucault are
from people, like, say Bloom, who say Foucault and the whole crop of French
"Resenters" are a waste of time. If you don't like my use of secondary
sources, get over it. I read what interests me, just like you do.

> >> It seems to me that Tim said "The judge in the Paladin case
> >> committed a capital crime" and not "The judge in the Paladin case
> >> committed a capital crime and should be gunned down in the streets
> >> like a dog."
> >
> >Frankly, I believe that the two sentences above are exactly the same
> >thing,...
>
> No, in the first case the possibility of a fair trial with an
> impartial jury exists.  They are different statements.

Agree to disagree then. I say you're splitting, um, doghairs at best.

> >...but that it was pretty apparently a wish (if not a threat, if you
> >want to pull semantic hairs until one bleeds) that the judge be
> >assassinated,...
>
> Tim has repeatedly made it clear to the world that this was not his
> meaning.  What is your purpose in declaring otherwise?

Tim can make it as "repeatedly clear" as he wants after the fact. However,
he has, on several occasions, made threats against people with more guns
than he has, and, sooner or later, they're gonna squash him, and his aims
won't be any farther along than they were before he decided that he was
some kind of freedom fighter in defense of our rights. To take a page from
his book, I didn't ask him to.

Frankly, I really liked him a lot better when he made sense.

> In every other instance in which Tim has discussed capital punishment,
> it has been in the context of a trial.

I think other people have answered this, and the next few things you've
said this post of yours, much better than I have.

However, Monty, you're just being an apologist for someone used to make
sense about how the world works, who still has his moments of lucidity, but
who has gotten increasingly radicalized and militant at exactly the same
time the world is figuring out that his earlier thinking on freedom, on
cryptography, on the net, and on a whole host of other really important
stuff, was right.

It's almost as if Tim keeps trying to top himself, with some newer and more
grandiose claim about the impending collapse of the world as we know it. It
just ain't so. The world don't work that way.

> >And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to end on
> >Thanksgiving Day, much less at the beginning of the millennium. Armed
> >storm troopers are probably *not* going to decend on the denizens of
> >this list and haul them off to newly built gulags in the Rockies
> >somewhere, or whatever the current fantasy of the moment is.
>
> When you drive do you always wear your seat belt, or just when you are
> going to have an accident?

Another red herring. Of course, people should educate themselves about
freedom, and know how to use the tools of freedom, including firearms, and,
now, cryptography. That lots of people don't know how to, is of course, a
drag, if not evolution in action.

However, to say that they're coming to take us all away on Thanksgiving, or
anytime soon, is more than a little paranoid, and, to attempt to force a
confrontation in hopes of preciptating a revolution, or even gratuitous
publicity :-), is, frankly, the act of a loon. As Rocky said to Bullwinkle,
"Aw, that trick never works!"

> Incidentally, it is well documented that in the 1980s, the USG had
> detailed plans for mass arrests of dissident citizens.  Ten army camps
> had been selected for this purpose.  The plan was to be executed in
> the event the country invaded Nicaragua.  The USG has incarcerated
> masses of U.S. citizens without trial at least twice during the 20th
> century.

Cool. Why don't you point me to the sources on this one, Monty. Let's see,
two independent sources who same thing should be enough. Ones that don't
quote each other would be preferrable. :-)

Oh, Monty? Don't give me that tired old crap about media conspiracy,
either. That trick never works, either...

> To claim it cannot happen again seems a little naive.

Prove to me it didn't happen?  Wait, there's a list of informal fallacies
around here somewhere. Want a copy. :-).

> >> The book I am reading is called "The Aurora: A Democratic-Republican
> >> Returns" by Richard N. Rosenfeld.
> >
> >Okay. Here's where I cop to bad craziness. It's now time for me to
> >fess up and get my butt hammered like a gentleman. :-).
>
> You certainly take your medicine like a man.  Good.

And your gloating condecention is *manly*? Sheesh...


> Hamilton wrote 51 of the essays, Madison 26, Jay 5, and 3 were written
> jointly by Madison and Hamilton.

Well, spank me dry. That's what I get for having a public eduction, I
guess. Here I thought all along Madison knew what he was talking about,
with that constitution stuff. Clearly the entire constitution is actually
Hamilton's fault. :-).

> If you are saying he attempted to subvert the Constitution, this
> letter will be of interest.  (May 20, 1798 Madison to Jefferson):
>
> >The Alien bill proposed in the Senate is a monster that must forever
> >disgrace its parents.  I should not have supposed it possible that
> >such a one could have been engendered in either House & still
> >persuade myself that it cannot be fathered by both... These addresses
> >to the feelings of the people from their enemies may have more effect
> >in opening their eyes than all the arguments addressed to their
> >understandings by their friends.  The President also seems to be
> >co-operating for the same purpose.  Every answer he gives to his
> >addressers unmasks more and more his principles & views.  His
> >language to the young men at Ph[iladelphia] is the most abominable &
> >degrading that could fall from the lips of the first magistrate of an
> >independent people...  It throws some light on his meaning when he
> >remarked to me "that there was not a single principle the same in the
> >American & French Revolutions;"... the abolition of Royalty was, it
> >seems, not one of his Revolutionary principles...

That's nice, Monty. Your cite is 9 years after Jefferson and Madison
corresponded during the constitutional convention about the bill of rights,
however, and, as far as your quote above, I see nothing there about Madison
himself subverting the constitution, though I'll take your word for it.

But, Monty, be careful, you're pushing fair use, here. Might as well copy
the whole book to us, or something. :-) So, exactly how much *do* you make
on commission at Amazon for copies of "Aurora"? ;-).

> >I believe, if you check it out, that
> >Jefferson sent the Bill of Rights to the Constitutional Convention
> >from France, and that Madison, ironically enough, had a hand in
> >getting it passed.
>
> Perhaps it is your turn to crack open a book and find the reference.
> I would be quite interested (and surprised) if you can substantiate
> your claim.

This is rich, from someone who gets such enormous mileage from just one
book. So, just for fun, I popped into AltaVista (not even the world's
greatest search engine anymore, how the mighty have fallen; I like Dogpile,
at the moment) and gave it "Jefferson wrote the bill of rights" and got
this back:

http://archon.educ.kent.edu/Oasis/Resc/Educ/teach2.html , which of course
only has one sentence about Jefferson and the bill of rights. :-). I leave
permutations and combinations of the search terms to the student as an
exercise.

>From the looks of the above citation, the principle of conservation of
irony still holds, I see...

Meanwhile, oddly enough, I *do* trust the author of the URL's source on the
subject. Unless, of course, he/she/it forgot to read "History Your Mother
Never Taught You", or something...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From adam at homeport.org  Wed Nov 19 10:02:57 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:02:57 +0800
Subject: cryptx spam - des-based program.
In-Reply-To: <3473229E.6BC5E22A@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <199711191741.MAA08648@homeport.org>



Ian Grigg wrote:
| Adam Shostack wrote:
| > 
| > As the maintainer of the free crypto libraries page
| > (www.homeport.org/~adam/crypto), I'm strongly tempted to refuse to add
| > any new library whose name starts with crypt.
| 
| I'd be interested to hear your reasons for this.  Is it a comment on
| crowding or on the use of the generic?  Looking at your page, I guess
| it's the overcrowding:  Crypto++ CryptoLib CryptLib Cryptix.  Try
| swapping the columns to intersperse the crypt-cartel.

	Its the overuse of the generic.  Cryptolib and Cryptlib are
different.  Quick, who wrote which?  I can't keep it straight.  (I
have web pages for that. :)  I can distinguish out BSAFE and SSLeay.

	Crowding is only a small problem.  If the names were better,
it would not be an issue.  The ordering on the page is the order I
created them, and it will not be changed due to the inordinate effort
required to change an HTML table.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From iang at systemics.com  Wed Nov 19 10:07:00 1997
From: iang at systemics.com (Ian Grigg)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:07:00 +0800
Subject: cryptx spam - des-based program.
In-Reply-To: <199711191531.KAA07810@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3473229E.6BC5E22A@systemics.com>



Adam Shostack wrote:
> 
> As the maintainer of the free crypto libraries page
> (www.homeport.org/~adam/crypto), I'm strongly tempted to refuse to add
> any new library whose name starts with crypt.

I'd be interested to hear your reasons for this.  Is it a comment on
crowding or on the use of the generic?  Looking at your page, I guess
it's the overcrowding:  Crypto++ CryptoLib CryptLib Cryptix.  Try
swapping the columns to intersperse the crypt-cartel.

Of course, successful names and generic roots soon get copied.  Back in
the good old days, there were so many companies with words like micro
and soft in them that it was confusing.

These days, branding has moved away from techno-terms, probably as the
industry becomes more mainstream.  Crypto is still not mainstream, but
if the USG silliness continues, it will become a more mature industry,
and there will be less need to convince the managers that a crypto
package is only good if it has the word crypto in.

As the industry matures, the original, successful brands will survive,
even though they might be inappropriate for a new entrant.  For e.g.,
Microsoft and General Motors.
-- 
iang                                      systemics.com

FP: 1189 4417 F202 5DBD  5DF3 4FCD 3685 FDDE on pgp.com






From briandaniels at mindspring.com  Wed Nov 19 10:07:12 1997
From: briandaniels at mindspring.com (Brian the Obscure)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:07:12 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>



At 10:46 AM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8 at pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels at mindspring.com> said:
>
>>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>>
>>>--Tim May
>
>>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.
>
>>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>>so fortunate.
>
><sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.

Hey, it beats the stomping of jackboots and shouts of 'Sig Heil!'

>
>This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
>house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
>it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
>shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
>than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.

Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is a
rather odd last name for an American Indian.

>
>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
>with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
>need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
>Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
>government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
>citizens in poverty.

Lets see.  Are you aware of how Texas, California, and New Mexico came to
be part of the US?  Probably doesn't matter - those dang furriners had no
right to the lands they lived on anyway, once the U.S. decided it wanted them.

I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole' want
to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  

This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.

--Brian



Brian Daniels               | Gremlins squashed, bit-buckets emptied,
briandaniels at mindspring.com | webs woven&patched, cables untangled,
                            | users placated (extra fee), demons
                            | invoked&dispelled, hacks while you wait!
		http://www.mindspring.com/~briandaniels

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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Nov 19 10:16:28 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:16:28 +0800
Subject: Rep. Smith on Lifting Crypto Export Ban
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971119174610.00d4dfb8@pop.pipeline.com>



[Congressional Record: November 13, 1997 (Extensions)]

                  ON LIFTING THE ENCRYPTION EXPORT BAN

                                 ______

                            HON. ADAM SMITH

                             of washington

                    in the house of representatives

                      Thursday, November 13, 1997

  Mr. ADAM SMITH of Washington. Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak
about an issue that is very important to me--lifting unfair export
controls on encryption technology.

  Mr. Speaker, protecting our National Security interests is among my
highest priorities. If I thought controlling encryption exports worked
toward this end, I would be its strongest proponent. Unfortunately,
export controls on encryption software simply disadvantage the United
States software industry.

  Under current law the United States allows only 40 bit encryption
codes to be exported, although software companies sell encryption codes
of up to 128 bits everywhere in the United States. Forty bit encryption
technology is so elementary, it took a graduate student a mere 3\1/2\
hours to break a code last January. Fifty-six bit encryption is 65,000
times more difficult to decode than 10 bit encryption and it only took
students three months to break the encryption code. One hundred twenty
eight bit encryption has not been broken yet.

  Naturally, foreign companies do not want to buy 40 bit encryption
software, because it is so vulnerable and insecure. The possibilities
for ``computer hackers'' to break into the system and wreak havoc are
enormous and dangerous. Therefore, foreign companies are purchasing
high-level encryption from foreign software providers instead of
American ones.

  The international demand for encryption software is growing
exponentially because of the tremendous rise in electronic commerce.
For instance, German Economics Minister, Guenter Rexrodt, said, ``Users
can only protect themselves against having data manipulated, destroyed,
or spied on by strong encryption procedures * * *. That is why we have
to use all of our powers to promote such procedures instead of blocking
them.''

  Our export restraint has not kept the technology from proliferating.
It has merely allowed foreign producers of strong encryption technology
to fill the vacuum. In fact, American companies are partnering with
foreign firms to distribute their software--taking jobs and revenue
with them.

  American-owned Sun Computers has recently joined with a Russian
software company to avoid the U.S. export ban and sell to foreign
markets. Foreign companies can also purchase American-produced 40 bit
encryption technology and upgrade it in their own countries to 128 bit
encryption technology. This ``add-on'' industry is among the fastest
growing software industries in Europe today. Clearly, if someone wants
high-level encryption technology, he or she can easily obtain it.

  The ability to obtain both powerful and affordable encryption will
now become easier with recent developments in Canada. The Canadian
Government includes encryption software in decontrolling mass market
software under the Generic Software Note. This means any software sold
over-the-counter, by mail or on the phone may be exported without
limits. Entrust, a Canadian software company, is freely marketing and
selling internationally a 128 bit encryption program right now. It
sells for less than $50, and Entrust provides a version of the
encryption technology free on the Internet. Even our most steadfast
ally sees that export controls can no longer help stem the overwhelming
demand and spread of unbreakable encryption.

  Mr. Speaker, if the United States continues to impose these
restrictive export bans on its own companies, ``foreign competition
could emerge at a level significant enough to damage the present U.S.
world leadership'' in the software industry, according to the National
Research Council's blue-ribbon panel on encryption policy. If our
export ban continues, the United States will not be the worldwide
leader on encryption technology for long, and that would be a true risk
to our national security.

  I strongly oppose any unilateral sanctions or regulations that put
the United States at an unnecessary disadvantage. Our current export
ban on encryption software is a perfect example, and I intend to
continue the fight to change our policy and allow the United States to
compete in the global software market.

                          ____________________

Archived at:

   http://jya.com/smith-crypto.txt






From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Wed Nov 19 10:17:03 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:17:03 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711190422.XAA14960@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971119103908.23634C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



>    at 06:28 PM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes at ssds.com> said:
> 
> >Interesting.  I was under the opinion that schooling and "social
> >services" were no more constitutional rights then, say, free food or a
> >pot to piss in.
> 
> Well I have done some more research on this.
> 
> Seems that there is a SC decision in Plyler v Doe 1982 in which the courts
> have ruled that a child (citizen or not) has the *right* to public
> education. This comes out of a Texas case not too differnt from Prop 187
> in California.

Either the SC has a different definition of "right" than the one I 
was taught in civics class in 1973, you misread the decision or
I have the honor of declaring the SC wrong (again).

(I know...how can a lowly citizen like me -- not even a lawyer
have the gall do declare this?  Because I don't get my opinions
from the SC.)

> I'll keep searching but if anyone has a pointer to where this info can be
> found it would be appreciated.
> 
> OK I found Plyler v Doe at:
> 
> http://caselaw.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=457&invol=202
> 

OK.  I'll read this.  To tell you the truth I don't hold a lot of hope for
the SC.  They are the ones that refused to hear the case of the little
girls in public school who were repeatedly strip searched by teachers 'cuz
they might have been hiding 5 dollars. 

All the courts up the the SC ruled that the it was just a case of
"poor judgement".  This reminds me of the Orange County Donald
Scott affair, where the prosecuting attorney of OC, after refusing
to prosecute the government agents involved, said they "lost their
moral compass".  Of course, after having said this, the prosecuting
attorney did not allude to where the agents involved could go to
find their moral compass.

I'm sure some citizen units have an idea.
> 
> It seems that this case is one of the main attacks against Prop 187 which
> AFAIK is still in the courts.
> 

I thought this was recently ruled on by our friends in the SC and 
Prop 187 was found constitutional.

Pretty screwy if you ask me, but the court system doesn't have to
make sense.  Since court decisions seem based on case law and not
any semblance of morality(?) or constitutional contractual 
obligation judges seem free to find the exact bit of case law
that defends their decisions.

Much like some sort of perverse argument between fundamentalists
each basing their reasons on selected excerpts from the bible.
If you have ever had the priveledge to witness this kind of
battle of the mentally unarmed, you know what I mean.

Then again sometimes a judge just pleasantly suprises the hell
out of me.

go figure...


jim







From sameer at c2.net  Wed Nov 19 10:23:20 1997
From: sameer at c2.net (sameer)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:23:20 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711190359.WAA10764@sulphur.osf.org>
Message-ID: <199711191809.KAA17981@gabber.c2.net>



> 
> Are you really sure that they bought it all? That would go against what

	I am pretty sure that they have only a 10% stake in Elvis+.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer at c2.net






From mishania at demos.su  Wed Nov 19 10:25:33 1997
From: mishania at demos.su (Mikhail A. Sokolov)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:25:33 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711190359.WAA10764@sulphur.osf.org>
Message-ID: <19971119210806.37214@demos.su>



On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 10:59:00PM -0500, Rich Salz wrote:
# >Since Sun bought the Russian Elvis+ company
# 
# Are you really sure that they bought it all? That would go against what
# we had been told, and I have a great deal of respect for the legal/crypto

They didn't.

# 	/r$

-- 
-mishania






From FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com  Wed Nov 19 10:27:32 1997
From: FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:27:32 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749344B@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>



I suspect this is just a hangover from the earlier days of the Web
(1993-1994) when it seemed to me that a lot of Web content was
repurposed from other sources (gopher, FTP, Telnet -- the old "page
after page of links").  I suspect that http://-only indexing occurred so
that the early search engines could manage the amount and types of data
indexed.

The other aspects are that:
* https:// can be significantly slower to server off of a smaller server
(http:// giving OK performance, but https:// being a dog), which may
prevent some from serving more content via https://; and
* Many of us find being your own Certificate Authority makes for greater
security, as you never have to let your private keys out the door, but
only recently have the tools for creating and maintaining Certificate
Authorities and server certificates become really commercialized (i.e.
GUI front ends, available from Netscape and Microsoft, etc.)

These aspects, I think, have combined to reduce the number of pages
served by https://, such that the search engine vendors probably haven't
been bugged very much to index https:// pages.  I expect this to change.
> ==========================================================
> Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
> fisherm at indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
> "Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
> 'Don't Tread on Me'"
> 






From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Nov 19 10:31:16 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:31:16 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:Tim plans to kill a federal judge
Message-ID: <199711191811.KAA12714@proxy3.ba.best.com>



At 06:10 PM 11/14/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> By the way, the same can be said about the work of Heidegger, a thinker who
> has had some influence on me. Whenever I cite anything Heidegger ever said,
> I can count on some numbskull to parrot the "Heidegger was a Nazi" shtick.

Probably because Heidegger *was* a Nazi, who pranced around in full drag 
Nazi uniform and sent certain of his colleagues to the concentration camps.

To very crudely oversimplify the relationship between Heideggers 
philosophy and Nazism, it goes like this.

No objective, only the intersubjective, therefore the community
defines reality, therefore truth is merely relative to the community.

Yeah, I know it is more complex than that, but it still boils down
to debates being resolved by hanging people from the ceiling with 
piano wire rather than by appeal to the external world.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 19 10:42:00 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:42:00 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: *DLS Lecture -Robert Morris - NSA - Tomorrow*]
Message-ID: <v0400270db098dc22bf8b@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:31:13 -0500
From: Richard Lethin <lethin at etcons.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Subject: [Fwd: *DLS Lecture -Robert Morris - NSA - Tomorrow*]
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Richard Lethin <lethin at etcons.com>



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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:17:47 -0400
To: seminar at ai.mit.edu, seminars at lcs.mit.edu, help-teach at lcs.mit.edu,
        assistants at ai.mit.edu, mas-students at media.mit.edu,
        support at media.mit.edu, eecsfaculty at eecs.mit.edu,
        dchamber at warren.med.harvard.edu, wmurphy at mediaone.net,
        Kenneth_Burrell/CAM/Lotus at lotus.com, vijak at eecs.harvard.edu,
        CMCampos at aol.com, Stephanie_Leung at cmp4.ccmail.compuserve.com
From: Barbara Barry <bbarry at hq.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: *DLS Lecture -Robert Morris - NSA - Tomorrow*

(Please excuse multiple posts)

*SEMINAR ANNOUNCEMENT ******************************

MIT Lab for Computer Science 	Distinguished Lecturer Series

Thursday, November 20, 1997	Lecture, 3:30pm
Location 34-101		Refreshments, 3:15pm
50 Vassar Street, Cambridge


Robert Morris, National Security Agency, Retired

Protection of Valuable Information

Over the past few decades, there has been a considerable shift in the area
of protection and exploitation of valuable information.  In the past, the
relevant skills were exercised by governments to protect or exploit
military and diplomatic information.  Nowadays, much of the interest in
information protection is by individuals wishing to protect their
privacy and by organizations wishing to protect their financial interests.

Here are the questions that come up that are worth some thought:

- does the breakup of the Soviet Union significantly reduce the
exploitation of U.S. Government information?

- has the world wide spread of ATMs (Automatic Teller Machines)
led to a great deal of electronic theft - and, if so how are they
protected?

- is cryptography more important than careful handling of information
and is cryptanalysis more important than burglary, bribery, and
blackmail?

Host: Ron Rivest

***************************************************
for the DLS season schedule check out
http://www.lcs.mit.edu/web_project/dls97.html
***************************************************




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 19 10:42:02 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:42:02 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.5 Freeware
Message-ID: <v04002706b098d7eac1bc@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: wprice at mail.pgp.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:42:57 -0800
To: thomassr at erols.com
From: Will Price <wprice at pgp.com>
Subject: PGP 5.5 Freeware
Cc: mac-crypto at vmeng.com
Sender: <mac-crypto at vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk

Yes, a freeware version of 5.5 for Mac and Win32 will be available later
today from the PGP, Inc. website.  Since Linux 5.5 isn't ready yet, we're
distributing source for diffs between PGP 5.0i b8 up to the final 5.0 UNIX
release.  Meanwhile, all the source to the Win32 and Mac versions of 5.5.2
is about to go to press.

The version number of the freeware going up today is 5.5.2 as we've had a
couple free updates since the main release of 5.5 Business Security.  The
freeware version contains information on exactly what the differences are
between the Freeware, Personal Privacy, and Business Security editions of
the product.

-Will

At 2:48 AM -0800 11/19/97, Tom Vier wrote:
>> PGP 5.5 is available now, is fully compatible with MacOS 8.X, and has
>> orders of magnitude more features and speed than FileCrypt.
>
>is there going to be a freeware version? what about source for
>linux systems?


Will Price, Architect/Sr. Mgr.
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.
555 Twin Dolphin Dr, Ste.570
Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Direct (650)596-1956
Main   (650)572-0430
Fax    (650)631-1033
Pager  (310)247-6595
wprice at pgp.com
Internet Text Paging: <mailto:1333485 at roam.pagemart.net>
<pgpfone://clotho.pgp.com>
<http://www.pgp.com>

PGPkey: <http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x5797A80B>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Wed Nov 19 11:31:49 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:31:49 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <ocr4t58q25f.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971120045204.131A-100000@shirley>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 19 Nov 1997, Colin Rafferty wrote:

> Tim May writes:

> > No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
> > perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
> > Green Card.
> 
> How do you know that someone is not a citizen?  My mother-in-law has no
> green card, can barely speak English, yet can legally stay in the US for 
> as long as she likes.
> 
> Of course, that's because she has been a US citizen for over thirty years.

The solition to this problem is manotory citizen identifaction cards.
With non possession of your card punishable by immeadet deportation.
Because if your not a citizen then you have no rights.

In fact if noncitizens have no rights or protection under the law I have a
great idear for an inexpencive food sorce.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 19 11:36:32 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:36:32 +0800
Subject: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd30c03db18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b098db6819cd@[207.167.93.63]>



At 11:38 AM -0700 6/22/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>The reason I ask is, given events of the past few days, it may be time to
>start standing up for our friends, no matter how unsavory their ideas.
...
>Tim was talking earlier here about how this kind of accountability should
>have been held, more stringently, for the people who burned children in
>Waco, and who shot them at Ruby Ridge. Maybe it's time to hold people who
>commit capital crimes on the state's behalf to understand that the legal
>sword cuts both ways. If so, I think the best way to start this is to do it
>in manageable increments, and ratchet up the pressure from there. To have
>zero tolerence for even the smallest offenses, starting with the jailing of
>Mr. Bell.

To paraphrase Hettinga himself, "I'm _telling!"

It appears hear that Bob is not only posting "off subject, non-coding"
stuff,  but that he appears to be calling for taking action against the
officials and judges in the Bell case.

My, my, my.


>Yeah, I know. It's me making work for someone else. Nonetheless: Anyone out
>there want to do this?

"Will no one rid me of that judge?"?

Physician, heal thyself.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 19 12:56:50 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 04:56:50 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <199711192035.VAA20768@basement.replay.com>



Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal,
make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering their
access to government services.  Anyone who has worked with these people
knows that most of them work harder than native born Americans.

Even aside from the strictly economic balance sheets, giving these
people the opportunity to succeed in a free country is a significant
moral benefit which must count in favor of free immigration.

They also serve to make our country more multi-cultural, with
greater awareness and appreciation of the value of alternate customs
and lifestyles.  We develop "hybrid vigor", as our culture is cross
fertilized by elements from all around the world.  The result is an
incredibly dynamic and flexible culture, which is why the United States
will continue to be a world leader for the next century.

Of course, this gift of diversity causes immigrants to be hated and feared
by racists such as Tim May, who sees them only as targets to mock with
threats of murder:

> Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
> This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
> illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
> Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)






From billp at nmol.com  Wed Nov 19 13:19:17 1997
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:19:17 +0800
Subject: Marshmallows
Message-ID: <34735232.3D44@nmol.com>

Attached was sent this noon.




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 19 13:24:21 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:24:21 +0800
Subject: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Message-ID: <v04002736b098f79b3403@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:00:08 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: dweightman at pop.radix.net
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com, :
From: Donald Weightman <dweightman at Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Mime-Version: 1.0

For Heaven's sake, guys, there were _two_ religious revivals by the name of
the 'Great Awakening'. One in England, early 18thC., most prominent
product: John Wesley & Methodism. The other in this country, at its height
in the 1840's,  with the Church of the Later Day saints as _its_ most
prominent product.


Don Weightman


At 08:13 AM 11/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
>To: cypherpunks at ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:43:13 -0600 (CST)
>X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>X-Loop: ssz.com
>X-Language: English, Russian, German
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
>X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>
>Forwarded message:
>
> > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0500
> > From: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
> > Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
>
> >
> > At 3:14 pm -0500 on 11/18/97, Jim Choate shows the benefits of being on
the
> > top of a CDR address stack :-) :
> >
> > > Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at
best.
> >
> > Nope. Check it out. As defined in any decent book of American history,
> > well, maybe one that hasn't been too "revised" :-),  the "Great
Awakening",
> > which gave us most of our American-flavored religions, happened in the
> > early part of the 19th century, though rumblings started shortly after the
> > revolution.
>
> I did a little web-search (still being at work and deprived of my library)
> but what I can find clearly indicates the 'Great Awakening' was fininished
> by the mid to late 1750's. Most of the sources that I found from Alta Vista
> give the beginning of the Great Awakening as the late 1600's to early
> 1700's.
>
> While I clearly put the beginning of the movement too early (I always get
> this confused with the beacon on the hill jive) all the evidence that I
> can gather shows that it did *not* extend into any part of the 1800's.
> As I understood the movement it didn't survive the American War of
> Indipendance.
>
> I used Alta Vista and search terms of 'great' & 'awakening'.
>
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    |
>    |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
>    |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
>    |                                                                    |
>    |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
>    |                                                                    |
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Where people, networks and money come together:        Consult Hyperion
>http://www.hyperion.co.uk/                          info at hyperion.co.uk
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Full-Strength Cryptographic Solutions for Worldwide Electronic Commerce
>http://www.c2.net/                                    stronghold at c2.net
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Like e$? Help pay for it!
>For e$/e$pam contributions or sponsorship:  <mailto:rah at shipwright.com>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov 19 13:47:24 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:47:24 +0800
Subject: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971119110903.2266B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971119223240.12431A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> > That is unlikely to  happen. The copies are  personalized.
> 
> In what way?  If two people get copies of it and then diff them, the
> personalizations are obvious.

Yes, indeed the personalizations are obvious. Even with just one copy. As
in "user ID" and "password", both of which are required to join the AT&T
crowd. Which happens to be the only crowd that it currently even makes
semi sense to join.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Wed Nov 19 14:25:55 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:25:55 +0800
Subject: RESULT: comp.org.cauce passes 548:122
In-Reply-To: <slrn66v7m2.gk.ichudov@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199711192132.NAA14828@sirius.infonex.com>



tskirvin at uiuc.edu (Tim Skirvin) wrote:
    
> Followup-To: comp.org.cauce 

[...]

> [note followups] 

Unable to comply, for obvious reasons.

> ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>    
> >What I _do_ see is that the un-elected "representatives" of CAUCE  
> >outlawed anonymous postings in their newsgroup.
>  
>         To repeat for everyone else - they have done no such thing.
> Anonymous postings are still okay in comp.org.cauce - however, the address
> must point back to a real address.  

If an address points back to a real address, then it's not *ANONYMOUS*, 
though.

> If anything, COC's moderation procedure has shown that they're in favor of 
> anon.penet.fi-style anonymous remailers - which, in my mind, is a good idea. 

Anon.penet.fi was *NOT* an anonymous remailer, though.  It was a "pseudonym
server".  The fact that it maintained a database by which posts could be
"traced back to a real address" is the main reason why it's no longer in
operation.  Maintaining that sort of information is an open invitation for
abuse by censorious elements, such as the "Church" of $cientology.

The chilling effect of knowing that identifying information is available for
abusive individuals and organizations to demand amounts to a form of
censorship through intimidation.

Ultimately, IMO, you harm the anti-UCE cause when you bundle it with an
anti-privacy agenda which requires broadcasting one's identity as the price
of free expression.

>         Anonymity by forgery, of course, isn't allowed in COC.  I don't
> see this as an overly bad thing.  Anonymity by munging isn't allowed there
> either, but I don't consider that to be anonymity in the first place.

This message, for example, uses neither method to attain anonymity, yet it
would be banned from comp.org.cauce.

--






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov 19 14:31:44 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:31:44 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749344B@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971119232115.12431D-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Fisher Mark wrote:
> * Many of us find being your own Certificate Authority makes for greater
> security, as you never have to let your private keys out the door, but
> only recently have the tools for creating and maintaining Certificate
> Authorities and server certificates become really commercialized (i.e.
> GUI front ends, available from Netscape and Microsoft, etc.)

About private CA's: take a look at Xcert's Sentry. http://www.xcert.com/ 


-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Nov 19 14:49:30 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:49:30 +0800
Subject: Looking for a Web anonymiser
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971119173241.0081c920@mail.imaginet.fr>
Message-ID: <199711191832.SAA05591@server.test.net>




Luc Saint-Elie <lse at saint-elie.com> writes:
> I'm in great need for a web anonymiser supporting https connections
> (that's not alas the case for excellent www.anonymiser.com)

I think Lance Cottrell offers SSL connections for a fee (he takes
payments in digicash also.)

Check out www.cyberpass.net for details, I would think.

Adam






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 19 15:18:56 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:18:56 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4707] Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711190552.OAA16422@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119150223.006e4e04@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 07:00 AM 11/19/1997 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Once again, Ito-san demonstrates that he's an ignorant uneducated buffoon,
>on par with the pathologial liar Charlie Platt.

Dmitri, you've got to keep straight which people you're calling
liars, which people you're calling pedophiles, which people you're
calling homosexuals, and which people you're calling Mama.
Otherwise we won't know whether it's really you or some forger
trying to increase your reputation capital.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From vznuri at netcom.com  Wed Nov 19 15:28:30 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:28:30 +0800
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118140330.17258F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199711192314.PAA03507@netcom10.netcom.com>




I don't understand TCM's recent comments about Kallstrom
doing a "good job" on proving or concluding that the airliner TWA800
was not shot down or bombed.

anyone who has followed anything written by Ian Goddard
on the internet can only drop their mouth in disbelief.

I urge anyone who wants more facts on the matter to look
up Ian Goddard's web site on a search engine. there is
a lot of really solid evidence, including extremely credible
eyewitness accounts, that it was a MISSILE. whether it was
from our own government or not is a question -- but I 
fail to see how any well-informed people cannot be aware
of the foul, odiferous coverup by the FBI (which to me 
suggests it was a US military exercise)

also see the book by James Sanders, "the downing of flight TWA800"--
he had a confidential informant involved in the NTSB 
investigation.





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:37:04 -0500
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg at epic.org>
To: rotenberg at epic.org
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800


Today the FBI ended the TWA Flight 800 criminal probe. The FBI's
lead investigator James Kallstrom said that the FBI found
"absolutely no evidence" that the tragedy was the result of
a criminal act.

But what was the FBI telling Congress after the incident
occurred? The following expert from CNN is worth saving.
Keep in mind that the FBI Director was simultaneously
lobbying the Judiciary Committee for expanded wiretap
authority.

Marc.


>From the CNN, July 20, 1996
[http://cnn.com/US/9607/20/twa.crash.probe/index.html]

U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, who was among members of Congress briefed
Friday by FBI Director Louis Freeh, said it looked "pretty darn conclusive"
that
either a bomb or a missile caused the explosion.

"We're looking at a criminal act," Hatch said. "We're looking at somebody who
either put a bomb on it or shot a missile, a surface-to-air missile."

Hatch, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, told CNN he came to his conclusions
after "various conversations" with government officials.

"I won't go so far as to say it was terrorism, but there was sabotage
here," Hatch
said. "It looks like that."

"It's very -- almost 100 percent unlikely -- that this was a mechanical
failure," he
said. "It looks pretty darn conclusive that it was an explosion caused either
internally or externally that was caused by a criminal act."

 * * *









From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 19 15:55:38 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:55:38 +0800
Subject: 2nd Great Awakening
Message-ID: <199711192354.RAA00136@einstein.ssz.com>



> X-within-URL: http://www.gnbvoc.mec.edu/webquest/PPERRY3.htm

>                   2ND GREAT AWAKENING & WESTWARD EXPANSION
>                                        
> 1815-1850
> 
>    
>    This time period brought the young country through rapid social and
>    economic change. This change brought with it regional and cultural
>    tensions. Americans sought personal, social and economic improvements
>    in their lives. A new middle class arose as people moved from rural to
>    urban settings. In the Northeast, lives changed for girls and women as
>    the factory system took hold. Lowell Mill Girls Americans also took
>    aim at the problems resulting from rapid social change and women like
>    Dorothea Dix left their mark on society. Women also began leaving
>    their mark in the professions, more and more women began teaching and
>    one courageous women, despite unbelieveable odds recieved a medical
>    degree. Elizabeth Blackwell 
>    
>    Participation in the anti-slavery movement inspired many women to
>    consider their own role in society. Some believed like Catharine
>    Beecher that a women's place was in her duty to home and family. She
>    wrote her down her thoughts in her Treatiste on Domestic Economy.
>    Sarah Hale, in the meantime spent 40 years defining for millions of
>    American women their proper sphere...refined, educated, moral,
>    wholesome, tasteful, gentle and skillful homemakers. She did this
>    through Godey's Lady's Book. While women like Elizabeth Cady Stanton
>    took a more active role in the fight for equal rights for women. An
>    important day came for women when Stanton and others issued the
>    Declaration of Sentiments at the Seneca Falls Convention, in Seneca
>    Falls, New York.
>    
>    American pushed westward toward Texas, California and Oregon in search
>    of new opportunities. The lives of the Native Americans were once more
>    impacted by the movement of the white man. Thousands of settlers
>    traveled west over the Oregon Trail to Oregon and California. Among
>    them Narcissa Whitman who was the first white women to travel the
>    Oregon Trail.






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 19 15:56:15 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:56:15 +0800
Subject: 3rd Great Awakening
Message-ID: <199711192358.RAA00234@einstein.ssz.com>



> X-within-URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/html/third_great_awakening.html

>    The Third Great Awakening (Second Turning, 1886-1908), began with the
>    Haymarket Riot and the student missionary movement, rose with agrarian
>    protest and labor violence, and climaxed in Bryan�s revivalist
>    candidacy (in 1896).  Gilded Age realism came under harsh attack from
>    trust-blasting muckrakers, Billy Sunday evangelicals, �new woman�
>    feminists, and chautauqua dreamers.  After radicalizing and splitting
>    the Progressive movement, the passion cooled when William Howard Taft
>    succeeded Teddy Roosevelt in the White House.






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 19 15:56:25 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:56:25 +0800
Subject: 1st Great Awakening
Message-ID: <199711192355.RAA00175@einstein.ssz.com>



> X-within-URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/html/great_awakening.html

>    The Great Awakening (Second Turning, 1727-1746) began as a spiritual
>    revival in the Connecticut Valley and reached an hysterical peak in
>    the northern colonies (in 1741) with the preachings of George
>    Whitefield and the tracts of Jonathan Edwards.  The enthusiasm split
>    towns and colonial assemblies, shattered the �old light�
>    establishment, and pitted young believers in �faith� against elder
>    defenders of �works.�  After bursting polite conventions and lingering
>    Old World social barriers, the enthusiasm receded during King George�s
>    War.






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 19 16:00:37 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:00:37 +0800
Subject: drac05.htm
Message-ID: <199711200001.SAA00285@einstein.ssz.com>



   From Issue #5
   
                                 VLAD DRACULA
                                       
   
An intriguing figure in the fifteenth century

   
   
   [IMAGE] By Benjamin H. Leblanc 
   valmont at lanzen.net
   M.Sc. Student, Sociology of Religion
   University of Montreal, Canada
   
   
   In less than two years from now the Count will celebrate his 100th
   birthday, and many Dracula enthusiasts from all around the world
   intend to underline this event. Of course, almost everybody has heard
   about this nosferatu: through movies featuring Max Schreck, Bela
   Lugosi, Christopher Lee or Gary Oldman; in several books - among which
   the recent Vampire Chronicles of Anne Rice; or even in bedtime stories
   told to us in our childhood. We all have an idea of who or what the
   Count is. However, on the other hand, Vlad Tepes Dracula, the
   historical figure who inspired Bram Stoker for his novel, is
   definitely less known. The centennial of the gothic masterpiece
   provides us with a good pretext to dive back into the life of this
   machiavellian fifteenth century leader - an initiative that will
   enable us to better appreciate the work of Stoker.
   
   Vlad Tepes was born in November or December 1431, in the fortress of
   Sighisoara, Romania. His father, Vlad Dracul, at that time appointed
   military governor of Transylvania by the emperor Sigismund, had been
   inducted into the Order of the Dragon about one year before. The order
   - which could be compared to the Knights of the Hospital of St. John
   or even to the Teutonic Order of Knights - was a semimilitary and
   religious society, originally created in 1387 by the Holy Roman
   Emperor and his second wife, Barbara Cilli. The main goals of such a
   secret fraternal order of knights was mainly to protect the interests
   of Catholicism, and to crusade against the Turks. There are different
   reasons why this society is so important to us. First, it provides an
   explanation for the name "Dracula;" "Dracul," in Romanian language,
   means "Dragon", and the boyars of Romania, who knew of Vlad Tepes'
   father induction into the Order of the Dragon, decided to call him
   "Dracul." "Dracula," a diminutive which means "the son of Dracul," was
   a surname to be used ultimately by Vlad Tepes. A second major role of
   this Order as a source of inspiration for Stoker's evil character is
   the Order's official dress - a black cape over a red garment - to be
   worn only on Fridays or during the commemoration of Christ's Passion.
   
   In the winter of 1436-1437, Dracul became prince of Wallachia (one of
   the three Romanian provinces) and took up residence at the palace of
   Tirgoviste, the princely capital. Vlad Tepes followed his father and
   lived six years at the princely court. In 1442, for political reasons,
   Dracula and his younger brother Radu were taken hostage by the Sultan
   Murad II; Dracula was held in Turkey until 1448, while his brother
   Radu decided to stay there until 1462. This Turkish captivity surely
   played an important role in Dracula's upbringing; it must be at this
   period that he adopted a very pessimistic view of life. Indeed, the
   Turks set him free after informing him of his father's assassination
   in 1447 - organized by Vladislav II. He also learned about his older
   brother's death - Mircea was the eldest legitimate son of Dracul - and
   how he had been tortured and buried alive by the boyars of Tirgoviste.
   
   
   At 17 years old, Vlad Tepes Dracula, supported by a force of Turkish
   cavalry and a contingent of troops lent to him by pasha Mustafa
   Hassan, made his first major move toward seizing the Wallachian
   throne. But another claimant, no other than Vladislav II himself,
   defeated him only two months later. In order to secure his second and
   major reign over Wallachia, Dracula had to wait until July of 1456,
   when he had the satisfaction of killing his mortal enemy and his
   father's assassin. Vlad then began his longest reign - 6 years -
   during which he committed many cruelties, and hence established his
   controversed reputation.
   
   His first major act of revenge was aimed at the boyars of Tirgoviste
   for the killing of his father and his brother Mircea. On Easter Sunday
   of what we believe to be 1459, he arrested all the boyar families who
   had participated to the princely feast. He impaled the older ones on
   stakes while forcing the others to march from the capital to the town
   of Poenari. This fifty-mile trek was quite grueling, and those who
   survived were not permitted to rest until they reached destination.
   Dracula then ordered them to build him a fortress on the ruins of an
   older outpost overlooking the Arges river. Many died in the process,
   and Dracula therefore succeeded in creating a new nobility and
   obtaining a fortress for future emergencies. What is left today of the
   building is identified as Castle Dracula.
   
   [IMAGE] Vlad became quite known for his brutal punishment techniques;
   he often ordered people to be skinned, boiled, decapitated, blinded,
   strangled, hanged, burned, roasted, hacked, nailed, buried alive,
   stabbed, etc. He also liked to cut off noses, ears, sexual organs and
   limbs. But his favorite method was impalement on stakes, hence the
   surname "Tepes" which means "The Impaler" in the Romanian language.
   Even the Turks referred to him as "Kaziglu Bey," meaning "The Impaler
   Prince." It is this technique he used in 1457, 1459 and 1460 against
   Transylvanian merchants who had ignored his trade laws. The raids he
   led against the German Saxons of Transylvania were also acts of
   proto-nationalism in order to protect and favour the Wallachian
   commerce activities.
   
   There are many anecdotes about the philosophy of Vlad Tepes Dracula.
   He was for instance particularly known throughout his land for his
   fierce insistence on honesty and order. Almost any crime, from lying
   and stealing to killing, could be punished by impalement. Being so
   confident in the effectiveness of his law, Dracula placed a golden cup
   on display in the central square of Tirgoviste. The cup could be used
   by thirsty travelers, but had to remain on the square. According to
   the available historic sources, it was never stolen and remained
   entirely unmolested throughout Vlad's reign. Dracula was also very
   concerned that all his subjects work and be productive to the
   community. He looked upon the poor, vagrants and beggars as thieves.
   Consequently, he invited all the poor and sick of Wallachia to his
   princely court in Tirgoviste for a great feast. After the guests ate
   and drank, Dracula ordered the hall boarded up and set on fire. No one
   survived.
   
   In the beginning of 1462, Vlad launched a campaign against the Turks
   along the Danube river. It was quite risky, the military force of
   Sultan Mehmed II being by far more powerful than the Wallachian army.
   However, during the winter of 1462, Vlad was very successful and
   managed to gain many victories. To punish Dracula, the Sultan decided
   to launch a full-scale invasion of Wallachia. Of course, his other
   goal was to transform this land into a Turkish province and he entered
   Wallachia with an army three times larger than Dracula's. Finding
   himself without allies, Vlad, forced to retreat towards Tirgoviste,
   burned his own villages and poisoned the wells along the way, so that
   the Turkish army would find nothing to eat or drink. Moreover, when
   the Sultan, exhausted, finally reached the capital city, he was
   confronted by a most gruesome sight: thousands of stakes held the
   remaining carcasses of some 20,000 Turkish captives, a horror scene
   which was ultimately nicknamed the "Forest of the Impaled." This
   terror tactic deliberately stage-managed by Dracula was definitely
   successful; the scene had a strong effect on Mehmed's most
   stout-hearted officers, and the Sultan, tired and hungry, admitted
   defeat (it is worth mentioning that even Victor Hugo, in his Legende
   des Siecles, recalls this particular incident). Nevertheless,
   following his retreat from Wallachian territory, Mehmed left the next
   phase of the battle to Vlad's younger brother Radu, the Turkish
   favorite for the Wallachian throne. At the head of a Turkish army and
   joined by Vlad's detractors, Radu pursued his brother to Poenari
   castle on the Arges river.
   
   According to the legend, this is when Dracula's wife, in order to
   escape Turkish capture, committed suicide by hurling herself from the
   upper battlements, her body falling down the precipice into the river
   below - a scene exploited by Francis Ford Coppola's production. Vlad,
   who was definitely not the kind of man to kill himself, managed to
   escape the siege of his fortress by using a secret passage into the
   mountain. Helped by some peasants of the Arefu village, he was able to
   reach Transylvania where he met the new king of Hungary, Matthias
   Corvinus. However, instead of providing some help, Matthias arrested
   Dracula and imprisoned him at the Hungarian capital of Visegrad. It
   was not until 1475 that Vlad was again recognized as the prince of
   Wallachia, enjoying a very short third reign. In fact, he was
   assassinated toward the end of December 1476.
   
   We do not know exactly why Bram Stoker chose this fifteenth century
   Romanian prince as a model for his fictional character. Some scholars
   have proposed that Stoker had a friendly relationship with a Hungarian
   professor from the University of Budapest, Arminius Vambery (Hermann
   Vamberger) , and it is likely that this man gave Stoker some
   information about Vlad Tepes Dracula. Moreover, the fact that Dr.
   Abraham Van Helsing mentions his "friend Arminius" in the 1897 novel
   as the source of his knowledge on Vlad seems to support this
   hypothesis. It should also be kept in mind that the only real link
   between the historical Dracula (1431-1476) and the modern literary
   myth of the vampire is in fact the 1897 novel; Stoker made use of
   folkloric sources, historic references and some of his own life
   experiences to create his composite creature. On the other hand, it is
   worth mentioning that Vlad Dracula's political detractors - mainly
   German Saxons - made use of the other meaning of the Romanian word
   "Dracul" - "Devil" - in order to blacken the prince's reputation.
   Could the association of the words "Dragon" and "Devil" in Romanian
   language explain an earlier link between Vlad Tepes and vampirism?
   
   Today, as Romania opens itself to the tourism industry, many "Dracula
   Tours" are being offered throughout the country. Two months ago, the
   author of this article attended one of them, organized by Bravo Group
   and designed by the Transylvanian Society of Dracula. This particular
   Tour includes the most important historical places related with Vlad
   Tepes, such as 15th century town of Sighisoara - Vlad's birth place;
   the Snagov Monastery - where, according to legend, Vlad is said to
   have been buried after his assassination; Castle Bran - which has been
   in the past erroneously described by officials of the Romanian Tourist
   Ministry as Castle Dracula; the Poenari fortress; the village of Arefu
   - where many Dracula legends are still told; the city of Brasov -
   where Vlad led raids against the German Saxons; and, of course, Curtea
   Domneasca - Dracula's palace in Bucharest. The Tour also covers the
   folklorical aspects of the fictional Dracula. For instance, one will
   find oneself eating the meal Jonathan Harker ate at The Golden Crown
   in Bistrita, and sleeping at Castle Dracula Hotel - built no so long
   ago on the Borgo Pass, approximately where the fictional castle of the
   Count is supposed to be. If you have another trip to the Bahamas
   planned for next Christmas and are a fan of Stoker's literary work,
   maybe should you reconsider your decision?
   
   As for the 100th birthday of the novel, may you celebrate "freely and
   of your own will!"
   
   Further reading
   
   Florescu, Radu, and Raymond T. McNally. Dracula: A Biography of Vlad
   the Impaler, 1431-1476. New York: Hawthorn Books, 1973. 239 pp.
   
   _________. Dracula: Prince of Many Faces; His Life and His Times.
   Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1989, 261 pp.
   
   Giurescu, Constantin C. The Life and Deeds of Vlad the Impaler.
   Dracula. New York: Romanian Library, 1969.
   
   McNally, Raymond T., and Radu Florescu. In Search of Dracula: The
   History of Dracula and Vampires Completely Revised. 1972. Reprint.
   Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1994, 297 pp.
   
   Stoicescu, Nicolae. Vlad the Impaler. Translated by Cristina
   Krikorian. Bucharest: Romanian Academy, 1978.
   
   Treptow, Kurt W., ed. Dracula: Essays on the Life and Times of Vlad
   Tepes. East European Monographs, no. 323, New York: Columbia
   University Press, 1991. 336 pp.
   
   
   The Transylvanian Society of Dracula
   47 Primaverii blvd.
   Buccuresti 1
   ROMANIA
   tel.: 401-6666195
   fax: 401-3123056
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   This feature appeared in Issue #5 of Journal of the Dark, and was
   written by Benjamin Leblanc. Comments may be sent to him at
   valmont at lanzen.net.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 19 16:11:55 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:11:55 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <199711192355.AAA16201@basement.replay.com>



Brian Daniels writes:

> This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
> it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
> towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.

Presumably by "this list" you are referring to the fight-censorship list,
and not the cypherpunks list (your message was distributed to both).
The cypherpunks list has been well established as an outpost of hate
and bigotry for some time.

About a year ago, influential cypherpunk Tim May turned away from the
previous emphasis on cryptography and privacy, towards a new approach
emphasizing guns, violence, killing, exclusionary rhetoric, and crude
racist humor.  New members have become active who apparently find these
topics more accessible than the arcane cryptographic technicalities
discussed in the past.  You no longer need a good mind to read the
cypherpunks list; today, a strong stomach is more important.






From rotenberg at epic.org  Wed Nov 19 16:14:39 1997
From: rotenberg at epic.org (Marc Rotenberg)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:14:39 +0800
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118140330.17258F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b098e6c94f4e@[207.172.96.252]>




FWIW, Kallstrom spent much of his time at the press
conference this week debunking the missle theory.
The FBI's explanation for why so many eyewitnesses
appeared to see a missile approach the plane boils
down to this: observers, alerted by the explosion,
were actually observing a wing falling away from
the plane.

Marc.


At 11:14 PM -0000 11/19/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>I don't understand TCM's recent comments about Kallstrom
>doing a "good job" on proving or concluding that the airliner TWA800
>was not shot down or bombed.
>
>anyone who has followed anything written by Ian Goddard
>on the internet can only drop their mouth in disbelief.
>
>I urge anyone who wants more facts on the matter to look
>up Ian Goddard's web site on a search engine. there is
>a lot of really solid evidence, including extremely credible
>eyewitness accounts, that it was a MISSILE. whether it was
>from our own government or not is a question -- but I
>fail to see how any well-informed people cannot be aware
>of the foul, odiferous coverup by the FBI (which to me
>suggests it was a US military exercise)
>
>also see the book by James Sanders, "the downing of flight TWA800"--
>he had a confidential informant involved in the NTSB
>investigation.
>
>
>
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:37:04 -0500
>From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg at epic.org>
>To: rotenberg at epic.org
>Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
>
>
>Today the FBI ended the TWA Flight 800 criminal probe. The FBI's
>lead investigator James Kallstrom said that the FBI found
>"absolutely no evidence" that the tragedy was the result of
>a criminal act.
>
>But what was the FBI telling Congress after the incident
>occurred? The following expert from CNN is worth saving.
>Keep in mind that the FBI Director was simultaneously
>lobbying the Judiciary Committee for expanded wiretap
>authority.
>
>Marc.
>
>
>>From the CNN, July 20, 1996
>[http://cnn.com/US/9607/20/twa.crash.probe/index.html]
>
>U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, who was among members of Congress briefed
>Friday by FBI Director Louis Freeh, said it looked "pretty darn conclusive"
>that
>either a bomb or a missile caused the explosion.
>
>"We're looking at a criminal act," Hatch said. "We're looking at somebody who
>either put a bomb on it or shot a missile, a surface-to-air missile."
>
>Hatch, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, told CNN he came to his
>conclusions
>after "various conversations" with government officials.
>
>"I won't go so far as to say it was terrorism, but there was sabotage
>here," Hatch
>said. "It looks like that."
>
>"It's very -- almost 100 percent unlikely -- that this was a mechanical
>failure," he
>said. "It looks pretty darn conclusive that it was an explosion caused either
>internally or externally that was caused by a criminal act."
>
> * * *



==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg at epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================







From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov 19 16:16:36 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:16:36 +0800
Subject: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb091012f0380@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3473799B.55A5@dev.null>



Robert Hettinga, leaping logical chasms with a single bound, wrote:

> At 7:08 am -0500 on 11/14/97, frissell at panix.com wrote:
> > The phrase "capital crime" (literaly "head crime") just means "worst
> >crime".
> > It does not imply punishment.  Punishment for capital crimes varies with
> >time
> > and place.  Saying someone is guilty of an infamous crime is not a death
> > threat.  It's not even a death threat to say, "I think X should be arrested,
> > tried by a court, and gassed."  You are merely expressing opinions about
> > criminal guilt and perhaps capital punishment but you are not making a
> > threat.

> Tim says we're going to war. He says that a judge commits a capital crime,
> by whatever definition he, or you, choose to use. Most people, and it
> doesn't have to be you, or me, or even Tim himself, would call that a
> threat, and, in the above case, against a judge. 

  Get real, begins-with-a-'b'-ends-with-a-'b'.
  Every President in recent history has committed capital crimes.
Pointing
that out can hardly be considered some kind of threat, since we all know
that they have always done so, and will continue to do so, with
impunity.
  A 'threat' would be to imply that anyone assassinating a judge or a
President would get to sleep with Jody Foster.

  The mainstream press is pushing the smoking-gun confirmation of Tricky
Dicky Nixy as a multiple-felon as "News" <har-har-snicker-snicker>.
  The millions of people who recognized his treason against the nation,
despite the lies of our politicians and press, could hardly be seen as
'threatening' ElTrickster, since I don't know anyone who thought he was
worth wasting a bullet on.
  As a matter of fact, I believe that a Peephole's Kourt in Kalifornia
tried Tricky Dicky, found him guilty, and sentenced him to live the
rest of his life as himself. (Cruel and unusual punishment?)

TruthMonger






From jito at eccosys.com  Wed Nov 19 16:17:34 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:17:34 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711190359.WAA10764@sulphur.osf.org>
Message-ID: <199711200004.JAA01877@eccosys.com>




At 15:01 97/11/19 -0800, via RadioMail wrote:
> when i left the program, years ago, it was 10%.
> 
> i do not know if something else was done later.
> 
>  ----- Original Message
> 
> Date: 20 Nov 97 07:50 +0900
> From: Joichi Ito <jito at eccosys.com>
> Subject: ELVIS+
> To: Jeff Rulifson <jeffr at Eng.Sun.COM>
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> what % share of ELVIS+ does Sun own?
> 
>  - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov 19 16:18:50 1997
From: tm at dev.null (Tim McVeigh)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:18:50 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.971119065534.4102B-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3472EC0C.6F5B@dev.null>



Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > It's time to "Just Say No" to the U.N. The John Birch Society makes more
> > sense every day.
> 
> US out of the UN and UN out of the US.
> 
> DCF

US out of the US.

TFM







From anon at anon.efga.org  Wed Nov 19 16:20:33 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:20:33 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <532d5c8e06a123ce2c6bc69646495202@anon.efga.org>



At 10:27 PM 11/18/97 -0600, Mr. Geiger wrote:
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e at pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/18/97 
>   at 11:34 PM, Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf at mindspring.com> said:
>
>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).
>
>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border. 
>
>And this would be a BadThing(TM)??
>
>- -- 
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3a
>Charset: cp850
>Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
>
>iQCUAwUBNHJqx49Co1n+aLhhAQFRjgP3YOksOybgbGdafOpOgya5TPsrQkBckRAm
>QhnUQWNpEbzAmUY1qPOEliaaGnZ/mftxG/Bfqmk2BGr8cQ1ofXapT1oOCpY0m5Zy
>359mb3INHk6gkW/XyjGQuvYQ9c/XITTAZ8NnjspYjpT2/oPPKarZE0zoCZV3owQI
>rFY0mGH29A==
>=L7O7
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>

I am quite confused, I thought this was the cypherpunk list, i.e. national borders are just speed bumps, anarchy, all that stuff? Has there been some change in philosophy where this is now the nationalistic statist list? Put the gestapo at the borders to kill anyone trying to sneak in? Bus those that don't belong here home?

Oooooh I now understand, you just hate, your hate for the government has now spilt over to where you hate citizen units that weren't born in this country. I think you, Mr. Geiger, would find a welcome if you submitted your resume to the Border Patrol, just think you could wear a nice spiffy uniform, and some jackboots, and carry a gun; don't drool when you get accepted.

Just like all the psuedo "freedom fighters" in the militias that Tim is so hyped on, just different thugs that want to control other people's lifes to conform to their belief systems.








From bdolan at USIT.NET  Wed Nov 19 16:24:35 1997
From: bdolan at USIT.NET (Brad Dolan)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:24:35 +0800
Subject: Patriot Militias, Neo-Conservatives, And Neo-Libertarians (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971119190659.27386C-100000@use.usit.net>



Highpoints from the 80K piece.

A really fine rant

bd
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Subject: Patriot Militias, Neo-Conservatives, And Neo-Libertarians 


              A
             AA
           AAAA        The A-Infos News Service
         AA   AA
       AA       AA
     INFOSINFOSINFOS   http://www.tao.ca/ainfos/
   AAAA       AAAA
 AAAAA      AAAAA

This essay comes from the june issue of The Leveler, a Los Angeles
Anarchist newspaper. ...

---------------------------------------------------
PART ONE 
----------------
Patriot Militias, Neo-Conservatives, And Neo-Libertarians
by Drifter "Bob" for @nt Press News


1.) ON LIBERTY, MILITIAS AND THE NEW RIGHT

Recently, the long simmering conspiracy theories that have always
existed on the lunatic fringe of the far-right here in America have
been metamorphosing into a variety of surging mass-movements,
organizations, and popular trends, to the great surprise and indeed
alarm of most Americans, especially, of course, those in the center
and left of the political spectrum. The movements associated with this
are growing in influence, power, and militancy, and continue to be
underestimated and misunderstood by the mass-media and the
professional opinion shapers. They may, in fact, reflect general
world-wide trend which could influence the next major series of
transformations of the human condition...

Nowhere can one really find an accurate analysis of these movements in
my opinion, despite the proliferation of simplistic evaluations which
are being bandied about everywhere in the wake of recent events, and I
think it is important for those of us on the far-left, particularly
(small l) libertarians, to try to reach a profound understanding of
the nature of this phenomenon for what it really is. This is true
whether your goal is to fight this thing, to influence it, to benefit
from it's presence, or to anticipate and prepare for it's many
consequences (for anarchists I think there will be many consequences,
both negative and positive).

For about the last year I have been studying the new pseudo 
libertarian right, spending a lot of time reading about it in both the
mainstream and underground media, and also talking to people who are
on the fringes of some of the constituent movements in various forums
on the internet, and other location in 'cyberspace'. Through the
course of hours of virtual arguments interviews and study, as well as
a few face to face conversations, I have formed some opinions of the
real nature of this thing and of our potential role in its
development, existence and influence. I can also guess at some of the
possible outcomes and influences it will have in the future. Before I
describe my own opinions though, I'd like to analyze the ones you are
probably already aware of.

There are basically 4 current views of this thing which are espoused
by the 4 major players who are interested in it: the Establishment
Right; the Establishment Left; the grassroots right (that is to say,
for the most part the militiamen and 'patriots' themselves, as well as
Nazi's and fascists further out on the fringe...); and the grassroots
or far-left. None of these groups in my opinion has an accurate grasp
of the nature of the movements which have arisen, the agendas or
origins of the body of theory that lie behind them, or especially of
the forces which are driving them and giving them all those ideas and
energy, seemingly out of thin air.

2.) WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE THINKS AND WHY THEY ARE ALL WRONG

The Conservative Perspective

The Establishment Right understands it the best probably, though they
of course are missing the point quite a bit so far, thank goodness. In
their opinion (to use their language) this is a popular cultural and
political counter-revolution against the extremes of social liberation
and the resultant breakdown of society, and a fundamental rejection of
the manipulation of the media and the 'cultural elite'. Basically they
see it as the pendulum getting ready to swing very far over to the
right at a time when people thought it was heading to the left, all
the further and harder because it was so unexpected.

By putting this spin on the situation they have been able to 
successfully (so successfully in fact that they may have scared 
themselves.) tap into the stream "anger" and seize a huge amount of
legislative power in the government. By withdrawing the old school
party hacks and presenting more radical, more demagogic new political
candidates who echo some of the buzzwords of the new movement, and by
adopting some issues popular with the grassroots of the right wing,
such as second amendment rights, orthodox Christianity, and various
forms of cultural or racial bigotry, they have managed to seize hold
of the keys to the candy store.

Having been given these keys by the grassroots, the Establishment (or
"Paleo") Right politicians are busy looting it on behalf of their
corporate sponsors, with even more frenetic zeal than you might expect
- as if they were afraid this golden opportunity was nothing but a
dream likely to be snatched out of their greedy hands at any moment.
Their enthusiasm is tempered only by a certain uneasiness about the
powerful and mysterious forces which so suddenly and so unexpectedly
gave them this opportunity, an uncertainty which may prove to be well
founded in the long run.

The Conservative politicians are delighted to pass any number of laws
denying welfare to practicing witches, prohibiting the use of  Soviet
Military vehicles on Interstate Highways, or forbidding members of the
Georgia National Guard from wearing blue helmets and swearing
allegiance to Zionist conspiracies, but eventually their new allies
are going to start wanting some type of action which will lead to an
inevitable conflict of interest. Obviously, any sweeping changes which
will benefit middle and working class  Americans are likely to
adversely effect not just minorities and "special interests" but the
real constituency of the Establishment Right: the Corporate
Plutocracy. When this happens, the shit is going to hit the fan,
because the Paleos won't, of course, be able to move against their
financial backers and the chances are that they won't of course be
able to double-talk the "Patriot" element of their constituency
indefinitely either.

This is the key to the whole thing, which I will explore in more depth
in a minute: some of these people just aren't buying the bullshit
anymore, regardless of how sophisticated or subtle it is - it's not
longer enough, they are going to want concrete improvements in their
lives. If they don't get them, especially when their lives are in fact
made palatably worse as a result of all the Robber-Baron legislative
initiatives sold to them by their friends in the Establishment, they
will turn elsewhere for satisfaction.

The Liberal Perspective

The Establishment Left is even more unprepared and less cognizant of
the nature of this thing. For years the mainstream left has bemoaned
the diminishing levels of popular enthusiasm for or participation in
the "Democratic Process" (i.e. universal suffrage), a fact which they
attribute in a rather elitist manner to the indifference and stupidity
of the electorate in general.

They hold this view in spite of the fact that most of them freely
admit to the rampant ideological stagnation of both parties in the
political system, and to their own personal awareness of the
Machiavellian realities which pull the strings of the power brokers on
the Left as well as the Right.they still expect citizens to
enthusiastically embrace "the lesser of two evils" in spite of the
fact that they know the mainstream left is virtually as bankrupt as
the right.

It never occurred to anyone in the mainstream Establishment, on either
end of the conventional political spectrum, that people were voting by
not voting - that they chose "none of the above" because THEY MEANT
IT, not just because they were trying to be cute. The failure by just
about all politicians other "representatives of the people," such as
the media, to recognize this fact is perhaps due to an unwillingness
on their part to accept the reason for it: many people are beginning
to realize that the current political system is incapable of meeting
their needs, and it is  now starting to look like older techniques of
what Noam Chomsky calls "manufacturing consent" are losing some of
their effectiveness.

Due to their ignorance of and perhaps hostility toward this vast
political, social, and cultural trend, the Establishment Left -
especially the democratic party and the "liberal" elements within the 
media - have positioned themselves as supporters of the reactionary
opposition to it, on the side of government authority.

[...]
One characteristic of this trend is the recognition of a new axis on
the political grid, which may change the shape of political struggle
and ultimately perhaps change the social structures which rule the
world. This new dimension is of course that of liberty versus
authority, which is becoming increasingly important to many ordinary
people, as reflected by some of the strongest new political trends in
the world right now: the libertarian center-right "Northern League"
Party in Italy, which is currently the most important political force
in that country, the left libertarian Zapatista movement in Mexico,
and our own government-fearing right wing "patriots" here in the U.S.,
not to mention various other fairly large left-libertarian anarchist
movements in countries such as Sweden, Denmark, Spain, and Greece.

Adding the libertarians vs. authoritarian axis to the standard 2
dimensional political landscape of the 20th century helps break the
deadlock that ha muddled peoples understanding of political realities
and allowed various governments or other forces to use "lesser of two
evils" rationalizations to support unpalatable agendas. Thus, any
confusion related to such contradictory concepts as the United States
supporting dictatorships in Latin America on the basis that they are
"democratic" due to their opposition to Communism, or from the other
perspective of various "Communist" dictatorships being somehow
revolutionary due to their opposition to Capitalism, can be seen in a
new light: regardless of whether Guatemala is theoretically right-wing
and North Korea is theoretically left-wing, they are both clearly
hellish authoritarian dictatorships which no one in their right mind
would want to live in.

This new distinction is often just as important to regular citizens as
the more traditional economic one (Capitalism vs. Socialism), though
it is normally totally ignored by their political leaders, and they
have finally begun to learn on their own, for some interesting
reasons, that despite the various rationalizations and rhetoric they
are fed to the contrary, the unchecked  growth of State authority in
their own Nation could be as much of a threat as the menace of
Communism or Imperialism from abroad.

The Radical Left

Unfortunately, it looks so far like the majority of organizations and
individuals in the relatively moribund North American left-wing
opposition are no more astute in their reaction to this thing than the
Democratic Party, if anything they are even more enthusiastically
jumping on the LAW AND ORDER bandwagon in their fear of it. This is of
course not entirely without good reason - like many similar populist
trends in the past the current new Right does have some affiliation
with the more rabid Nazi-type groups and political theories.

However, the new movements do not appear to me to be merely a
reincarnation of the John Birch Society. The core of these movements
are not in my opinion highly sympathetic to extreme fascist-type
beliefs, at least not yet, and the size and depth of them probably
preclude simply writing the entire phenomena off as a right-wing
aberration, nor do I believe the grassroots left will greatly benefit
from an alliance with the secret police. After all, gun wielding
citizens militias are not a new thing in this country. They were once
a highly effective tactic of certain progressive groups.
...

... the "Bullshit Gap."

To put it simply, the increasing ability and desire for rapid lateral
communication through such means as the public mail, the underground
press, telephones, fax machines, short-wave radio, and now the
Internet has enabled large sections of the general public to begin to
form their own conclusions about the nature of reality. Perhaps not
surprisingly, these opinions, derived from direct perceptions of the
world, (i.e. research, and observation of individuals), and reinforced
by comparison with the observations of neighbors and friends, differ
to a large degree from the "official" reality paradigms presented by
the Government, the Media, and all the various corporate, social, and
political entities who wish to shape and guide public opinion for
their own ends.

Waco Wake-up

One of the biggest gaps between the officially recognized worldview
and reality as these people see it is in the realm of increasing
government authority and the threat this poses to democracy.
Regardless of whether you may think this is a valid perception, there
is enough information available (especially recently after the release
of government documents to the general public in the early days of the
Clinton administration) to convince hundreds of thousands, perhaps
millions of Americans that there is an increasing danger. Certain
events such as the Waco Texas debacle have dramatically raised the
alarm of common folks from the level of the theoretical to the real
and visceral, much to the confusion of the media and others.

This actually is a common type of reaction historically. It is the
same kind of event that ended an era of hardcore union-busting when
strikers and their families machine-gunned en-masse in the Ludlow
Massacre, forced prison system reforms after the slaughter at Attica,
changed the public opinion of the Anti-War movement after protesters
were shot at Kent State, threw support behind the civil rights
struggle after numerous lynchings and bombings in the Deep South, and
has caused innumerable riots and insurrections throughout the history
of America. Citizens don't like seeing other citizens get killed, once
that starts, it's time to re-evaluate everything they are being told.

The incident at Waco and a few other eerily similar Government acts
over the last few years caused a lot of people to begin casting about
for a new worldview that would not excuse what they saw as Government
murder and oppression. Many folks encountered the increasingly
libertarian leaning body of right-wing conspiracy theories and
urban/rural legend that was already forming a new and fairly
sophisticated if quirky philosophy in the grassroots. The once narrow,
reactionary, intolerant ideology of the far-right had undergone a
quirky evolution which allowed elements of it to find this niche among
the American psyche.

...

[This has been] very frustrating to just about all of their
"representatives" in both political arms of the mainstream, each of whom
views reality through differently colored spectacles and sees these things
as signs of progress. The consensus in the media and the establishment
intelligencia is that the common people are invariably motivated by
short-term greed, backward orthodoxy, or other forms of stupidity, and
are completely incapable of understanding the "Big Picture" or
ultimately even acting in their own self-interests. There is a
universal desire on the part of these folks that the ignorant masses
would stop agitating and causing trouble for their betters and let
them engineer these things for their own good.

The American political and social elite envision an ideal type of
citizen which they have represented in the movie Forest Gump: pious,
loyal, patient, and mildly retarded, with a head full of quaint
colloquialisms and little else, devoted to a lifestyle of family
values, hard work, self-sacrifice, and quiet suffering. A
Gump-American would certainly be willing to forfeit control of his
destiny to the economists and technocrats who have the Harvard and
Yale educations needed to understand the issues of the day, and when
necessary they wold be glad to translate the reasons for the various
austerity measures he will have to endure into amusing Gump-dialect,
so that he could explain them to his family.

[...]
Part of the electorate has seen through some of the weaknesses in the
rather half-hearted arguments of their leaders, and is beginning to
form it's own opinions. Perhaps more ominously, they have developed a
new cynical outlook which insulates them from some of the manipulative
techniques of the past, thus rendering them virtually immune to that
type of influence, for better or for worse.

Thus the American male of the 1990's is in fact turning out to be a
lot different from the wistful fantasy of Forest Gump. The role model
many seem to be emulating is closer to a character from a Charles
Bronson movie: a suspicious, creepy loner with a borderline psychotic
personality which hints at the potential for sudden violence, and 
armed to the teeth with the knowledge and the equipment to be
potentially dangerous. Now many of these guys are getting together in
large groups, broadcasting their dark speculations over the short-wave
radio and the Internet, comparing evaluations of the government and
the ruling institutions, and not liking what they are seeing one bit
through their infrared binoculars.
[...]
__________________________
Radio4All:
http://www.radio4all.org/
The A-Infos Radio Project:
http://www.radio4all.org/radio
http://radio4all.web.net/

     ****** A-Infos News Service *****
  News about and of interest to anarchists

Subscribe -> email MAJORDOMO at TAO.CA
             with the message SUBSCRIBE A-INFOS
Info      -> http://www.tao.ca/ainfos/
Reproduce -> please include this section


 









From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Nov 19 16:42:01 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:42:01 +0800
Subject: NBC Mugs Jim Bell
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971120003433.007127f0@pop.pipeline.com>



An NBC News story this evening on the threat of CB
terrorism full-screened a closeup of Jim Bell's mug shot, 
the same as the lead photo in US News last week. The
story presented much the same line and Internet
sources of frightening information but did not balance
it with a sidebar on burgeoning anti-terrorist opportunism
as did US News.







From pooh at efga.org  Wed Nov 19 16:53:52 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:53:52 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749344B@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119194653.033a2098@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 01:02 PM 11/19/97 -0500, Fisher Mark wrote:
>* Many of us find being your own Certificate Authority makes for greater
>security, as you never have to let your private keys out the door, but
>only recently have the tools for creating and maintaining Certificate
>Authorities and server certificates become really commercialized (i.e.
>GUI front ends, available from Netscape and Microsoft, etc.)

Can someone direct me where to get CA software to sign my own Stronghold key?


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Nov 19 17:13:51 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:13:51 +0800
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971120010958.006d23b4@pop.pipeline.com>



Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>FWIW, Kallstrom spent much of his time at the press
>conference this week debunking the missle theory.
>The FBI's explanation for why so many eyewitnesses
>appeared to see a missile approach the plane boils
>down to this: observers, alerted by the explosion,
>were actually observing a wing falling away from
>the plane.

To amplify this a bit: the explanation also included the
speculation of cascading fuel being ignited from the
bottom and flaming upward, which could be interpreted 
by the observers as a missile rising. 

An interesting view which I wonder if any of our scientists
here find credible. 

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall the CIA video showing
upward flaming fuel, rather it showed a billowing explosion
centered on the main fuel tank of the upturning fuselage
(as the front cabin plummeted).

Is it feasible that the fuel would ignite and flame upward 
that way or would it be too broadly dispersed by speed 
and the atmosphere to cause a coherent, shaped flame 
such as that of a missile tail? For example, would an 
adept pilot be able to tell the difference?

This is posed because of the way several theories of
the OKC blomb blast got it wrong due to overly
narrow initial interpretation as did misinterpretations
of other controversial "terrorisms."

Perhaps Tim May is correct in his assessment of Jim,
but NTSC's upcoming hearing should produce more 
reliable technical information than Kallstrom appears to 
be comfortable handling -- given his bent for melodrama 
fine details of investigation seem to be an annoyance,
although he appeared to like the assurance of the CIA's 
virtual reality.

Kallstrom also said that the case will remain open, I guess
in case Boeing or TWA or something needs to be zapped
by blind justice.








From atd at stopgocal.com  Wed Nov 19 17:23:47 1997
From: atd at stopgocal.com (Auto Truck Depot)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:23:47 +0800
Subject: FREE OFFER
Message-ID: <eaep.3.0.reg.DanCR7.35753.7591636574@mail.stopgocal.com>




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  reply to this message with "remove" as the subject and you
  will not receive any more email from our server.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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11/19/97






From goddesshera at juno.com  Wed Nov 19 18:16:19 1997
From: goddesshera at juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:16:19 +0800
Subject: Deductive Reasoning
Message-ID: <19971119.185132.20247.6.goddesshera@juno.com>



Deductive Reasoning

Cypherpunk: "Hi there new neighbor, it sure is a mighty nice day to be
moving" 

Neighbor 1: "Yes, it is and people around here seem extremely
friendly"

Cypherpunk: "So what is it you do for a living?"

Neighbor 1: "I am a professor at the University, I teach deductive
reasoning"

Cypherpunk: "Deductive reasoning, what is that?"

Neighbor 1: "Let me give you and example. I see you have a dog house out
back. By that I deduce that you have a dog."

Cypherpunk: "That is right"

Neighbor 1: "The fact that you have a dog, leads me to deduce that you
have a family"

Cypherpunk: "Right again"

Neighbor 1: "Since you have a family I deduce that you have a wife"

Cypherpunk: "Correct"

Neighbor 1: "And since you have a wife I can deduce that you are
heterosexual."

Cypherpunk: "Yup"

Neighbor 1: "That is deductive reasoning"

Cypherpunk: "Cool"

Later that same day

Cypherpunk: "Hey I was talking to that new guy who moved in next door"

Neighbor 2: "Is he a nice guy?"

Cypherpunk: "Yes, and he has an interesting job"

Neighbor 2: "Oh, yeah what does he do?"

Cypherpunk: "He is a professor of deductive reasoning at the University"

Neighbor 2: "Deductive reasoning, what is that"

Cypherpunk: "Let me give you an example. Do you have a dog house?"

Neighbor 2: "No

Cypherpunk: "Fag."



This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera at juno.com>.






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 19 18:18:43 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:18:43 +0800
Subject: Nobuki Nakatuji
In-Reply-To: <199711191358.OAA06580@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119083722.006986a0@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 02:58 PM 11/19/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>Nobuki Nakatuji, though lesser known, is like Monty Cantsin and 
>Luther Blissett, well-burnished pseudonyms used by wads of 
>artistes who believe them to be more artful than hoary Anonymous. 
>Globalists are producing variations of nom-de-plumes to scribe a 
>message to the clued - duh, in Imperialist Yanklish.
>
>Reputation capital and persistent identity convince only the
>duh-speakers who believe insider secrets, insider lies of hot IPOs, 
>and MISTY/RSA chips ostensibly made in JP and NDA-ed to the 
>gullible by pseudo-chipper fab-lab MD-stingmasters.

Due to his distinctive writing style, John Young should probably have
his anonymous posts translated into English by Nobuki if he truly
wishes to remain anonymous.

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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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+LPS6mQLqJU5dep4LNct4iMz
=rUgk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 19 18:29:48 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:29:48 +0800
Subject: RESULT: comp.org.cauce passes 548:122
Message-ID: <MBKABBDLLOKHBAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>> ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>>    
>> >What I _do_ see is that the un-elected "representatives" of CAUCE 

>> >outlawed anonymous postings in their newsgroup.
>>  
>>         To repeat for everyone else - they have done no such thing.
>> Anonymous postings are still okay in comp.org.cauce - however, the
address
>> must point back to a real address.  
>
>If an address points back to a real address, then it's not
*ANONYMOUS*, 
>though.

You could always use the Woodwose Remailer--login to the URL above and
enter userID woodwose and the password jaguar7.  It is a valid return
address (the web interfase allows you to send & receive email), but it
is not connected with a True Name.
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=Ea1B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov 19 18:32:56 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:32:56 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4789] Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711192355.AAA16201@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <34739F0E.6FB4@dev.null>



Barely Anonymous wrote:
> Brian Daniels writes:
> 
> > This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
> > it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
> > towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.
> 
> Presumably by "this list" you are referring to the fight-censorship list,
> and not the cypherpunks list (your message was distributed to both).
> The cypherpunks list has been well established as an outpost of hate
> and bigotry for some time.

Timothy C[reep] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification
purposes.

            \|/
           (*,*) Timothy C[reep] May
          _m_-_m_

> About a year ago, influential cypherpunk Tim May 

The main difference between Timothy May and shit is that shit smells 
better.

     \o _o   o  o  \o  |o  |o  >>    /\/ o__  _o   o/ Timothy May
     |   |  /|  |\  |  /  /|/  \|o  o\   |  \   \  |
     |   |  << <<  << |                        << < \

> turned away from the
> previous emphasis on cryptography and privacy, 

Tim C. Maypole, a product of anal birth, appeared with a coathanger 
through his head.

         (_) _____ (_)
            /O   O\   Tim C. Maypole
           !   I   !
           ! \___/ !
            \_____/

> towards a new approach
> emphasizing guns, violence, killing, exclusionary rhetoric, and crude
> racist humor.

The only `culture' Timmy May possesses is that 
cultivated from his foreskin scrapings.

   \|/
  (*,*) Timmy May
 _m_-_m_

>  New members have become active 

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> The only `culture' Timmy May possesses is that 
> cultivated from his foreskin scrapings.
> 
>    \|/
>   (*,*) Timmy May
>  _m_-_m_
> 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of
alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> :
<ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> who apparently find these
> topics more accessible than the arcane cryptographic technicalities

Tim Maytag carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.

      _______c___c
     /       /_  _\
    |       ((6)(6)) Tim Maytag
    (  )_  __\\  //__
    o___n) (nn)\o/(nn)

> discussed in the past.  You no longer need a good mind to read the
> cypherpunks list; 

Subject: HOW TO MAKE BIG $$$ AT HOME, LICKING YOUR OWN DICK!!!

> today, a strong stomach is more important.

Timothy May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly 
wired to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. 
That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has caused 
extensive brain damage.

         o_,   o
        <\__, v|> Timothy May
         |    < \

  We are truly indebted to Barely Anonymous for reminding us of the
hallowed, non-vuterpertative history of the cypherpunks list, which we
should revere and hold in great piss-stream, as ? the Platypus would
surely tell us.
  I look forward to Barely Anonymous' posts containing "narc'ing 
cryptographic technicalities" in the future.

TruthMonger






From remailer at htp.org  Wed Nov 19 18:33:18 1997
From: remailer at htp.org (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:33:18 +0800
Subject: The Great Awakening
Message-ID: <19971120022501.17715.qmail@nsm.htp.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>Bob Hettinga wrote:
>> BTW, Emerson, Dickenson, Whitman, Thureau, etc., were part
>> of the same ideological outpouring which, in the theological arena, was the
>> Great Awakening. A lot can be said for the view that this was American
>> Romanticism, as Chopin, Byron, the Brontes, Austen, etc., were all
>> happening in roughly the same couple of generations. Later, like libertines
>> and enthusiasts throughout history, they became extremely repressive. We
>> eventually came to call them Victorians. (Sound familiar, you baby boomers?)
>
>After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
>other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
>for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.

"THE GREAT AWAKENING

"A conservative reaction against the world view of the new science was 
bound to follow, and the first half of the eighteenth century witnessed a 
number of religious revivals in both England and America.  They were 
sometimes desperate efforts to reassert the old values in the face of the 
new and, oddly enough, were themselves the direct product of the new cult of 
feeling, a philosophy which argued that man's greatest pleasure was derived 
from the good he did for others and that his sympathetic emotions (his joy as 
well as his tears) should not be contained."

 -- The Norton Anthology of American Literature, Third Edition, Volume 1

Being a New Englander, Bob should know about the revivalist of Northampton, 
Massachusetts: Jonathan Edwards.  His name is synonymous with the "Great 
Awakening."

As for the religious/ethical awakening that occurred prior to the War 
between the States, that has generally come to be known as "American 
Transcendentalism," especially the works of Whitman, Emerson and Thoreau.

Nerthus

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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 19 18:33:52 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:33:52 +0800
Subject: The Great Awakening (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711200238.UAA01352@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: 20 Nov 1997 02:25:01 -0000
> From: Anonymous <remailer at htp.org>
> Subject: The Great Awakening

> >After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
> >other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
> >for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.
> 
> "THE GREAT AWAKENING

No, "The Second Great Awakening" which happened to be followed by "The Third
Great Awakening".

You didn't read the various posts that I sent out earlier on this did you...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Wed Nov 19 18:36:01 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:36:01 +0800
Subject: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711200225.SAA25951@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and
>the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is
>the elimination of freedom and privacy.
>
>It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first
>become enslaved.

Those who wage war are rarely the slaves.  Those who die usually are.
The "cannon fodder" you mentioned.

Gives new meaning to to phrase "...give me liberty, or give me death."

Nerthus

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From buzzreg at central.cnet.com  Wed Nov 19 18:48:18 1997
From: buzzreg at central.cnet.com (buzzreg at central.cnet.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:48:18 +0800
Subject: Welcome to Builder buzz!
Message-ID: <199711200239.SAA06040@toad.com>



Welcome, cypherpunk.

You have registered as a provisional user for Builder buzz. To become a full
member, please email the following member code line back to us, so we can
confirm your email address. With most email programs, you can simply reply to
this message. (If your email program doesn't include the previous message in
its replies, you may need to cut and paste the member code line into the reply
message.)

   MEMBER CODE: 1c72 qCf0zipj 

Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to having you visit often and
participate completely in the Builder buzz conversations!

Regards,
Dan Shafer
master builder and Builder buzz host






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 19 18:51:19 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:51:19 +0800
Subject: NBC Mugs Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971120003433.007127f0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b099469547d8@[207.167.93.63]>



At 5:34 PM -0700 11/19/97, John Young wrote:
>An NBC News story this evening on the threat of CB
>terrorism full-screened a closeup of Jim Bell's mug shot,
>the same as the lead photo in US News last week. The
>story presented much the same line and Internet
>sources of frightening information but did not balance
>it with a sidebar on burgeoning anti-terrorist opportunism
>as did US News.

Just in time for his sentencing tomorrow.....

Sort of like the way one of the guns on the list of "stolen guns" (from a
gunshop) had been bought by Terry Nichols a year before the robbery,
according to records which showed up in trial today.  "Whoops."  Sounds
like a setup, with false evidence, that the government screwed up.

Justice in Amerika. "Manufacturing Consent," indeed.

Go see "The Jackal" and root for Bruce Willis...I know I did.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From dbf at rpkusa.com  Wed Nov 19 19:02:09 1997
From: dbf at rpkusa.com (Jack Oswald)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:02:09 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
Message-ID: <01BCF51B.5CC88AE0@Secure4.dbf@rpkusa.com>



I believe that is correct.  It is not a 100% ownership.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From:	sameer [SMTP:sameer at c2.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, November 19, 1997 10:10 AM
To:	Rich Salz
Cc:	jk at stallion.ee; whgiii at invweb.net; cryptography at c2.net; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject:	Re: export restictions and investments

> 
> Are you really sure that they bought it all? That would go against what

	I am pretty sure that they have only a 10% stake in Elvis+.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer at c2.net







From jito at eccosys.com  Wed Nov 19 19:04:21 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:04:21 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
Message-ID: <199711200259.LAA02696@eccosys.com>




At 15:01 97/11/19 -0800, via RadioMail wrote:
> when i left the program, years ago, it was 10%.
> 
> i do not know if something else was done later.
> 
>  ----- Original Message
> 
> Date: 20 Nov 97 07:50 +0900
> From: Joichi Ito <jito at eccosys.com>
> Subject: ELVIS+
> To: Jeff Rulifson <jeffr at Eng.Sun.COM>
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> what % share of ELVIS+ does Sun own?
> 
>  - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov 19 19:04:40 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:04:40 +0800
Subject: Finger Narcs
Message-ID: <3473A3FA.7801@dev.null>



While wandering in the Twilight Zone that lays between sleep and being
awake, I caught vague details of the following non-reality substantiated
news story:

  Ontario, in order to combat the Iron Chariotman, Road Rage, has/will
institue/d some citizen/government entity named 'Highway Rangers' (?),
whose purpose is to arrest/narc-out drivers who 'flip the bird' to
their fellow drivers, etc.

  I find it interesting that, upon awakening, I had neither the desire
nor a reason for confirming/not the details of this news story, since,
if it is _not_ true, it _could_ be.
  In short, I doubt that it is now possible to create an inner dream,
or nightmare, which is more bizarre than the ludicrousness which is
currently serving as our alleged Silver Screen of Reality.
  Go figure...

TruthMonger






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 19 19:07:38 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:07:38 +0800
Subject: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971113183601.846A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v0400274ab0990e74923b@[139.167.130.248]>



At 11:18 am -0500 on 11/14/97, Tim May wrote:


> Even here on Cypherpunks we see toadies like Bob Hettinga fretting that our
> words are going too far, that we must learn to police ourselves or the
> police will be forced to do so.

Nice try, Tim.

Frankly, if you, or Paul Bradley, want to stand up and call for the death
of anyone, a federal judge, or the President of the United States, or the
Pope, for that matter, you're welcome to do so. Have fun, you crazy kids...

You just sound like loons, is all, and, at some point, you're going to piss
someone off who'll have less brains but more guns than you do, and enough
lawyers after the fact to make it all stick. My opinion, of course. Free
speech, and all that. :-).


So, no, Tim, I don't believe that the mellenium is here, that the Forces of
Darkness are building in the shadows, much less going to Thanksgiving
dinner at Uncle Tim's house.

I think that they're just as fucked up as they always were, Tim. If we keep
making progress, and, barring some major silliness you or I can't even
fathom, progress in cryptography is practically an economic necessity, now,
they'll continue to bluster like some charging rhino or something, but they
can't hurt anyone who's paying attention and has the proper tools.

So, boys and girls, do you think you can stay out of the way of a very
dangerous cornered animal? Well, yes, probably, by very dint of the fact
that *you've* cornered it. However, if you think it's necessary to either
prove your bravery by tempting it to give you an ad hoc rectal exam, or
worse, by ignoring it (no one here's guilt of that, I bet) then you're
welcome to try to survive your case of testosterone poisoning, but don't
say I didn't warn you...


We have only the example of Jim Bell to remind us that when you bang on the
gorilla's cage, you should expect to get shit thrown in your face. Yes, I
saw what looks like Tim's repost of my "coalmine" message go by, and I
don't think my opinion of Bell's situation has changed since then, but I've
decided to shovel Tim's dreck FIFO, for the time being, to keep better tabs
on it.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 19 19:08:56 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:08:56 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711141755.SAA20812@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0400274cb099333ef18f@[139.167.130.248]>



At 12:52 pm -0500 on 11/14/97, Tim May kept shovelling it out:

> Big deal. Nothing Tom Clancy hasn't talked about in his novels. (And recall
> Clancy's delicious description of a Japanese 747 loaded with jet fuel being
> crashed into the main hall of Congress during a joint session, with the
> President and cabinet in attendance. It was clear that Clancy was vicarious
> relishing this vermin removal effort. Gonna suggest that Clancy has
> committed a crime? No doubt Hettinga would.)

Nope. It was fiction. Jingoistic :-) fiction, but fiction nonetheless.
Helps if you've sold 100 million books or something before the fact.
Frankly I didn't get that far into the story, because the way Clancy
planned to take Wall Street out made me laugh out loud.
Blow-milk-out-your-nose funny, especially if you have even the most
rudimentary financial operations experience, which is all I have. Financial
science fiction written from the viewpoint of an insurance salesman is
always funny, I guess, as we'll learn in a product announcement around here
someday, I bet...

You, on the other hand, Tim, have not sold tens of millions of books, but
you did say that war was at hand, and, in the very next breath, you
threatened a very specific federal judge by saying he committed a "capital"
crime. Whatever "capital" means. Not that it matters, of course, after all,
it's just "vermin control", right?


And, no, Tim, not once have I suggested that what you did was a crime at
all. In fact, I have consistantly said it could just be *treated* as one by
anyone with sufficient motivation to do so, whether you were apprehended,
or jailed, or tried, or convicted -- or not. And "not" in this case, as Jim
Bell shows us, can be an interesting set of results...


Finally, and to the point, I don't say that what you said then is
immediately going to get you a stay in Club Fed somewhere, but that your
continued escalation of this kind of stuff makes that a probability, and
that it looked to me like you were doing it on purpose in order to provoke
a confrontation of some kind, God knows why. I still believe you'd still be
escalating that bizarre silliness, instead of backpedaling with all this
equivocation, if I hadn't called you on it at the time.


And, finally, I *don't* believe the world's going to end in some
state-sponsored cataclysm, for you, for me, or for your favorite official
vermin, just because the technology of strong cryptography over ubiquitous
networks makes vertically integrated hierarchical entities like
nation-states economically obsolete someday.

Even if it happens all at once, which it can't. Even if that day is maybe
sooner rather than later, which would be nice but probably not anytime
soon. Even if it's the Millenium, or even Thanksgiving: a day which, of
course, is ludicrously too soon for anyone's revolution anyway. :-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 19 19:09:27 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:09:27 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749343D@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <v0400274bb0991fcb5fc5@[139.167.130.248]>



At 12:25 pm -0500 on 11/14/97, Tim May wrote:

> I had no "trouble" with Bob recently until he launched a major attack on
> one little phrase,

Straw. Camel. Back. Loon. Major Attack.

> (I found one I hadn't deleted yet, the actual kick-off of this campaign:
> "Tim's Way Cool Latter-Day Farnham's-Freehold in the Santa Clara
> mountains.... a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself
> to be these days... instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of
> every statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland.... you won't
> have to clean the snot off the end of your
> gunbarrel so often...)

Ahhhh. Fine form I was, too. You shoulda been there, Tim... Upf! You *were*
weren't you, you devil, you...

> A charming way of making his point, eh?

Thankyouverramuch....

> Some would call it "clever"
> writing.

*I*'d think so. I have the finest education that the nation-state can buy.
I love state schools, don't you, Tim?

> I call it just a string of insults. And not even as creative as
> Detweiler used to pull off.

Marvellous. Hettinga. Detweiller. Same thing. Yeah, right, Tim.  Like I
mail bomb the list with humongous screeds about Tentacles of Medusa...

Opppppssss. Um, Anonymously. I mean...

Oh. I get it. Detweiller's *more* creative than I am, so, then...

Sigh. Well, gosh. Looks like ya got me, there, Tim. Detweiller *is* more
creative than I am. I'm crushed, I have to tell ya...


> His general writing style, liberally laced with what I think of as "New
> Wave Journalism" metaphors, is not my writing style, and I usually don't

Ah, c'mon, Tim "New Wave" was 10 years *after* when I learned to write like
this. I came up in, you know, "the worst era of American Education since
the invention of the Public School," remember?

> have the patience to wade through his verbiage to find his actual points.
> Fine. His style is not mine. Neither is John Young's. Or Toto's. Or even
> Bill Stewart's. Such is life.

And, ladies and germs, another point of Tim's wanders off into the sunset,
in search of cute little barnyard animals...

Ooops. Sorry. Heh... Lost my train of thought...

> But overly personal attacks which concentrate on Bob's apparent intense
> dislike of _my_ style (despite his overuse of disingenuous smileys, like
> ":-)"), is a different matter.

:-).

> As Monty noted, "Physician heal thyself!  Much of your discussion consists
> of ad
> hominem attacks with little content such as the paragraph quoted above."

Actually, I think we've handled the definition of "Ad Hominem", already
(wait, there's a list of them somewhere... Oh, you've got it? Cool.). I'd
call what I said, "needless vituperative insults", wouldn't you? (Wait,
I've got a definition of "vituperative" somewhere... Never mind? Okay).


Just feeding you back your own bullshit, Tim, and I've learned from a
master. Reap what you've sown, Bunky.


> I've tried to keep my replies to him brief.

Like this terse little missive I'm replying to? Please.

However, if you are, maybe it's because you're at a loss for words. Maybe
it's becaue you can't write anything new anymore? Black Helicopters got
your toungue?

I remember someone as much as a year ago, talking about how there aren't
any more long essays on cypherpunks anymore. Oh. And someone else, a few
days ago, saying something about how I wasn't posting? And now here, before
I even took a *break*, you say I'm writing too *much*?

The ganglia twitch...


> It delights me that many of my
> brief replies have generated long, overwrought replies from him.

Everytime you throw a little crap at me, I park a dumptruck full on your
front lawn? Fine by me...

>  Delights
> me as I skim them to get the gist of his insults, then send his missive
> into oblivion.

Ah. Good. They were meant to be skimmed. The subliminal messages will kick
in at 12:02 pm, Thanksgiving Day. You'll have this uncontrollable urge to
stand naked on on your front porch, with your arms outstretched exactly 1
inch apart, so the local sherrif's SWAT-Auxillary can handcuff you and take
you to your new mate in a county jail somewhere...

:-).


> If Bob has objections or differences of opinion, fine.

Enormous ones. Absolutely. Damn straight. I used to think you were a
grandstanding, name-dropping vituperatively marvelous son of a bitch, Tim,
and I used to *love* your opinions.

Now, however, *my* opinion is that you're just a loon. Big difference of
opinion, there, did you catch it?

> But he should not
> squander his reputation capital by foaming about my personal choices, by
> referring to snot running down my barrel,

Tim, Tim, Tim. To you think I would squander my reputation capital on just
*anyone*? <BudLightMan> I *Love* you man...</BLM>

>  by claiming I said I was going to
> kill a judge, and other such lies.

No, Tim. You threatened a judge. Frankly, if I hadn't called you on *that*
little episode, you'd probably have said worse, by now instead of denying
up and down that you didn't say it, and, sooner or later, you'd have pissed
off someone without the "proper" educational credentials, and an
"inapprpriate" desire to play soldier. <Ooopsss. Is there an echo in here?>

> And he really ought to tone down his "Hunter S. Thompsen wannabee" style of
> writing. It was old a couple of years ago.

Thompson, Tim. Thompson. Don't take the master's name in vain. Heck, he'd
probably call me a Fucking Statist, like you will, soon enough. Anyway, my
writing not nearly tired as your "there's a [statist] under every bush" is
anymore, Mr. Welch.

However right *those* guys might have been -- and, frankly, *you* were,
until you started predicting the Immediate Destruction of the Republic,
film at eleven. Or deciding that you're going to start the revolution all
by yourself.

<WhiningLiberalMode> *Frankly*, Tim, I think it's awfully *selfish* not
having your *friends* there to help you stand at the barracades. </WLM>


Oh. Tim? One more thing.

My writing style, or lack of it, has nothing to do with the fact that
everything I said, in your bad paraphrasing of that quote of mine up there,
is stone cold truth.

Right back atcha, Tim. To paraphrase you yourself said to me, "Get over it."

Or, was it, "Get a life"?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 19 19:11:55 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:11:55 +0800
Subject: Tim plans to kill a federal judge
In-Reply-To: <v03102814b092a6fc7e52@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0400274eb0993f5cca5b@[139.167.130.248]>



At 8:10 pm -0500 on 11/14/97, Tim May, Weatherman, made the wind blow again:

> This is really rich. Hettinga hates "ad hominae."

Awwww, poooor *Timmy*. Did I decline a latin noun you didn't under*stand*?
I'm soo sorry...

(Hey, speaking of ad hominae(?) I'v got this great list of informal
fallacies... You've seen it? Oh. Okay. No, that's not one. I'll show you
later.)

> This from the guy who started this latest flame war with such choice
> phrases as:
>
> "Tim's Way Cool Latter-Day Farnham's-Freehold in the Santa Clara
> mountains.... a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself
> to be these days... instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of
> every statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland.... you won't
> have to clean the snot off the end of your
> gunbarrel so often..."

Hey, there's an echo in here! At least I have the common courtesy not just
to cut and paste my replies, Tim. :-). You wouldn't want me to cut and
paste my previous reply to your snappy synopsis, would you?  I didn't think
so.


Actually, I don't see a *single* ad hominem in up there. Let's fix that,
shall we?

Let's see if I can use a few choice ones here, just to give you a flavor
for what a *real* ad hominem looks like:

1. Tim just hates PGP because he's invested so much in RSA and he's a pal
of Jim Bidzos.

(Hey, Don't look at *me*, I only know what I read from anonymous character
assasinations posted to cypherpunks. Besides, RSA's cool by me, they're
FC98 sponsors, and I've even talked to Ron Rivest a couple of times...
They're sponsors until they read this, anyway. =:-O. This is probably an
unsubstantiated rumor, anyway. Can't possibly be true. I mean *I* don't
believe it, do *you*?)

Anyway, notice that the reason I gave, Tim's investment in RSA and his
friendship with Bidzos, has nothing to do with his stated reasons for
disliking PGP these days, whatever those reasons are. Thus this argument
has no merit because it doesn't address Tim's points about the usefulness
of PGP's software, say.

2. Tim just hates Japanese because he's a white european male.

Not because, of course, any direct refutation of Tim's stated reasons in
his discussions of Japan, whetever they were. I, um, skimmed them and then
threw them away. ;-).

3. Tim hates Latin because he doesn't know any.

Not, because, as evidently stated above, he finds it pretentious
("hoity-toity" is something he says a lot that might apply here) enough to
mock with quotation marks. Or whatever. A correct refutation of Tim's would
be what terrible mockery of a fine old dead white language his comments
are, and why would Tim be so crass as to insult it, etc.


> Hettinga, heal thyself.

Um, take a pill?

(See? There *is* an echo in here... Isn't there?)

Meanwhile, Tim's duping text this time, some 30 ignomineous lines of it
:-(, which he ends with a single sentence:

> Hettinga has admitted basic ignorance of Foucault, just as he backpedalled
> furiously on the "Aurora" claims he made.

Ah, there's that, isn't it? Actually, I don't have basic ignorance of
Foucault, though my ignorance of Foucault *is* quite close, and by choice,
Tim. And, I would wager, if *you* actually read Foucault, *you'd* wish you
had quite close to basic ignorance, yourself... :-). (Anyway, this is all
handled in another post, so I don't want to let the echo get too
recursive... Wait... There's that echo again. Isn't it?).

But, from the above quoted reasons, Tim concludes,

> (about Hettinga's repeated, and loud, claims in recent days that I have
> called for the death of a federal judge)

Which doesn't exactly follow from the last sentence, does it? Sort of like,

If a, then b
if b then c,
therefore d,

which is about the grade I'd give for this kind of logic...


> Hettinga shows his true colors by repeating these lies over and over again.
> I would not be at all surprised if he has forwarded carefully excerpted
> fragments to his friendly FBI offices, hoping they'll make a move to
> investigate me.

I would not at all be surprised if Tim really wished I would, so he'd end
up in the morning papers, or, or test out his "sensors" and his AK,
something.

Nope. Sorry, Tim, I'm not your co-star this Dog Day Afternoon...


> I have, over the years, expressed my constitutional opinion about many
> people whom I think have committed capital crimes.

Ah. Speaking of backpedaling. And, on the central point, no less, whether
or not you made a threat on a federal judge. "Constitutional opinion",
indeed. Too bad you're not using coaster brakes, Tim. You might have come
to a complete stop, by now...


Notice that this is not simply whether Foucault is a moral-relativist,
namby-pamby-candy-assed, politically correct socialist resenter, who you
yourself would line up and shoot (constitutionally, of course) at the first
opportunity. If you read his stuff.

Nor is it simply whether Monty knows how to read a book he's reading and
type it into mail messages. (At least *I* have the courtesy to do my own
book reports at length -- and at more length :-) -- in my own words without
having to play human xerox machine. Ooops. I am. I do. With e$pam, I mean.
Well -- never mind. Can I, um, backpedal that?)

The point is that Tim, here, is equivocating on that very um, evocative
statement he made which started this whole episode to begin with. The very
central fact of this whole argument.

Which, in case you haven't noticed, I'm winning. :-).


> OJ, of course. And Lon
> Horiuchi, the shooter at Ruby Ridge. And, if you check the archives, Tim
> McVeigh. Fact is, many people have committed capital crimes. And I don't
> particularly feel like paying my share of the $50-100K a year to keep them
> well fed and housed at Club Fed, so I'd just as soon spend a quarter on a
> rifle round and be done with them.

Yup. Okay.

So, Tim, why don't you tell me exactly how a sitting federal judge, who
made a decision he's legally entitled to make, silly or not, under the
constitution you liked so much as little as a year ago (or less, if memory
serves), is the same kind of person, deserves the same $.25 round in the
head, as a rich guy who slit his wife's throat and got away with it because
he has the best lawyers money can buy, or a government goon who shoots a
woman holding a baby in probable cold blood, or a, um, Freedom Fighter ;-),
who blows up a few hundred people one sunny morning?

I'd love to hear this. Constitutionally, of course.

Oh. Right. One more thing. This is also a far cry from someone who, as
little as a year ago, was disgusted and appalled when someone here made the
offhand remark "let's put a round in the head of this discussion"...

The ganglia, um, twitch...


> I don't have a clue who "Monty Cantsin" is, but his clear thinking makes it
> kind of a shame he will remain a nym forever, unless he declares himself.

Especially since he's your number one apologist and lapdog these days?
Spare me. I expect he'll go away once he pisses you off. Or vice versa.
Given your lack of command of your tongue these days, which see this whole
discussion, it shouldn't be too long...

> (No one, not even Vinge or Card, ever said nyms would carry the same
> reputation capital True Names do. Maybe someday. But not in the foreseeable
> future.)

Shades of the e$ rant I was writing at the very time Tim wrote this. Short
answer: They can if they just spend money, Tim, but they have to be
careful. Wow. Content. I'm having so much *fun* tonight...


> Indeed. Hettinga keeps quoting this "Tim plans to kill a federal judge"
> mantra so much that I'd better rename the thread to this just to keep
> Hettinga happy. There, it's done.

Why, thank you Tim. I'm honored. While you're at it, why don't you post the
LAT/LONG of your house in a reply to this exact message, so the Black
Helicopters don't have any trouble finding you on Thanksgiving?


Actually, Tim, I think you think of yourself as Helen of Corralitos, the
man who launched a thousand conspiracies. ;-). "Will no one rid me of this
judge?", which, constitutionally or not, looks like a threat to me.
Especially if I was a certain judge...

See other posts in this vein that I've written tonight. I won't repeat
them, as you are wont to do.

So much for all this new posting you're supposed to have done, Tim. Looks
like the same old same old to me...


> Hettinga doesn't bother with research. He just shoots from the hip. He
> concentrates on _style_ over substance. Must be his liberal arts training.

May doesn't bother with style, much less Latin. :-). Must be his physical
science training.

See, Tim? Both yours and mine are ad homin*ae*. Very *good* Tim.

I'll boot your D up to a C-...

Though, ah bet yew cain't boss yer meskin help fer shit with a command of
ro-mance language like the one yew have...


Take heart, however, you've still got me beat. At least you *have* Mexican
help. I mean, I've got all the education, and you've got all the money,
right? But, that's okay.

Because, when the revolution comes...

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From Alexandre.Peshevski at das.gov.au  Wed Nov 19 19:14:00 1997
From: Alexandre.Peshevski at das.gov.au (Alex Peshevski)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:14:00 +0800
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
Message-ID: <s47441b0.087@das.gov.au>



Does anyone have a copy of the CIA (FBI) Video simulation??

>>> John Young <jya at pipeline.com> 20/11/97 12:09:58 >>>
Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>FWIW, Kallstrom spent much of his time at the press
>conference this week debunking the missle theory.
>The FBI's explanation for why so many eyewitnesses
>appeared to see a missile approach the plane boils
>down to this: observers, alerted by the explosion,
>were actually observing a wing falling away from
>the plane.

To amplify this a bit: the explanation also included the
speculation of cascading fuel being ignited from the
bottom and flaming upward, which could be interpreted 
by the observers as a missile rising. 

An interesting view which I wonder if any of our scientists
here find credible. 

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall the CIA video showing
upward flaming fuel, rather it showed a billowing explosion
centered on the main fuel tank of the upturning fuselage
(as the front cabin plummeted).

Is it feasible that the fuel would ignite and flame upward 
that way or would it be too broadly dispersed by speed 
and the atmosphere to cause a coherent, shaped flame 
such as that of a missile tail? For example, would an 
adept pilot be able to tell the difference?

This is posed because of the way several theories of
the OKC blomb blast got it wrong due to overly
narrow initial interpretation as did misinterpretations
of other controversial "terrorisms."

Perhaps Tim May is correct in his assessment of Jim,
but NTSC's upcoming hearing should produce more 
reliable technical information than Kallstrom appears to 
be comfortable handling -- given his bent for melodrama 
fine details of investigation seem to be an annoyance,
although he appeared to like the assurance of the CIA's 
virtual reality.

Kallstrom also said that the case will remain open, I guess
in case Boeing or TWA or something needs to be zapped
by blind justice.









From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 19 19:26:43 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:26:43 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <01BCF43F.82159220@joswald@rpkusa.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119175940.006e729c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 03:12 AM 11/20/1997 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>At this point a brief overview of modexp accelerators might be  in order:
>o the Belgian chips I've seen are too slow.
>o the Rainbow board is OK, but non-exportable.
>o the Chrysalis PCMCIA card has the same performance as the Rainbow board
>at half the price.  Also non-exportable.
>o  the Ncipher SCSI based accelearator screams, but it a bit pricey.
>UK product. Exportable (?) http://www.ncipher.com/
>o a high-end Alpha also performs rather nicely, according to some
>benchmarks Eric Young once posted.

All of the non-exportable ones sound like specialized cryptographic devices,
which are of course evil threats to Yankee National Security,
so of course they're not exportable.  On the other hand, if they weren't
crypto-specific, but just did modexps or other bignum stuff,
as long as they weren't faster than a PentiumII-400, 
and didn't use the C-word in the product literature, they'd be exportable.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 19 19:27:45 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:27:45 +0800
Subject: Invasive interface
In-Reply-To: <v0400272eb097920be0a3@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119181404.006e729c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 01:42 PM 11/18/1997 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>On a somewhat related issue Eduardo Kac from the Chicago Art Institute
>last week sucessfully implanted a microchip under his skin.  This is
>much more of a "dumb" chip as it simply can report back an ID number
>when queried and doesn't really have any sensing or processing.
>However, it is notable because it was done by a non-medical individual
>on his own accord and at least shows that implants are becoming a more
>accessable to the common person. 

It's not tough - you can get implants for your cat or dog for ~$25.
They're installed by a vet, but it's a simple subcutaneous injection,
so all they need to do is disinfect the site, pinch some skin,
and inject it carefully, (and try to keep from getting bitten.)
No different for injecting in into a human, except the government 
wants you to have their permission to practice medicine,
and you may not need to worry about getting bitten.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 19 19:28:20 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:28:20 +0800
Subject: ITAR
In-Reply-To: <19971119010002.15815.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119184501.006e729c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



First of all, you're the first person I've seen with a Niue address -
congratulations!  (South Pacific Island suburb of Lompoc :-)

At 05:27 PM 11/18/1997 -0800, Brian W. Buchanan <brian at smarter.than.nu> wrote:
>I've always been told that software with function hooks for crypto was
>just as unexportable as crypto itself.  

The legal status of crypto-equipment-without-the-crypto-plugin is
fuzzier under the current regime than the previous one, but it was
basically illegal to export components of a cryptosystem.

> doesn't make sense
You answered that correctly later:
>Of course, this is the goobermint we're dealing with...

So don't export that crypto-cellphone - export a phone with
voice amplifier software implemented as a plugin, 
or a digital background noise reducer,
or programmable muzak-on-hold replacement, or
or even enhanced authentication protocols.
They're not crypto devices, they're perfectly normal commercial products,
and you're shocked, _shocked_ at the free scratchy-white-noise background
music plugin that somebody with entirely no musical taste is shipping,
or that some Bulgarian hackers are abusing your phone to provide service
to Colombian narcoterroristas in blatant violation of their warranty.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Wed Nov 19 19:30:05 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:30:05 +0800
Subject: Billboards as Sight Bites
Message-ID: <199711200311.TAA02459@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> It's time to "Just Say No" to the U.N. The John Birch Society makes
>> more sense every day.
>
>US out of the UN and UN out of the US.

Yup, seen the billboard.  Evidently the JBS is starting a new billboard
campaign on December 1st calling for the impeachment of Clinton.

Nerthus

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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 19 19:30:11 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:30:11 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <01BCF43F.82159220@joswald@rpkusa.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119191841.00688af4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 03:12 AM 11/20/1997 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>At this point a brief overview of modexp accelerators might be  in order:
>o the Belgian chips I've seen are too slow.
>o the Rainbow board is OK, but non-exportable.
>o the Chrysalis PCMCIA card has the same performance as the Rainbow board
>at half the price.  Also non-exportable.
>o  the Ncipher SCSI based accelearator screams, but it a bit pricey.
>UK product. Exportable (?) http://www.ncipher.com/
>o a high-end Alpha also performs rather nicely, according to some
>benchmarks Eric Young once posted.

All of the non-exportable ones sound like specialized cryptographic devices,
which are of course evil threats to Yankee National Security,
so of course they're not exportable.  On the other hand, if they weren't
crypto-specific, but just did modexps or other bignum stuff,
as long as they weren't faster than a PentiumII-400, 
and didn't use the C-word in the product literature, they'd be exportable.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From declan at well.com  Wed Nov 19 19:39:03 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:39:03 +0800
Subject: NetNanny's Gordon Ross on "Censorship and the Internet"
Message-ID: <v03007819b0995dfa6c4d@[204.254.22.110]>




=================

From: gordonr at netnanny.com (GordonR)
Reply-To: "gordonR at netnanny.com" <gordonR at netnanny.com>
To: "'Declan McCullagh'"
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:46:19 -0800
Organization: Net Nanny Software International Inc.


Censorship and the Internet
Written by: Gordon A. Ross CEO/President
Net nanny Software International Inc.

The Internet today provides a total open communication facility for all
societies on this planet to communicate with one another.  Depending on
your political and value judgments, this could be good, bad, allowed or
disallowed.

I am a firm believer in absolute freedom of speech.  However, there are
numerous organizations, societies, governments, and countries that
determine what freedom of speech is according to their own rules.  We are
capable of developing technology to allow the individual to determine what
information is appropriate or inappropriate according to their own value
sets - not mine or those of any single government.  But in order for this
type of technology to work on a global basis, we must set standards, much
like the way early telephone networks had to be set up.  Back then, if
there weren't certain "signaling" standards set within the
telecommunication community, people had to go through time-consuming
avenues in order to communicate with different foreign groups.  It is
logical that the Internet will also evolve with a set of standards, and
some of them are already in place, such as TCP/IP, HTML, and PICS (Platform
for Internet Content Selection).

Because each unique group has a different value set, we must develop a
standard that all countries can accept and use that does not infringe on
their right to govern according to their own constitutions or laws.  PICS
is such a standard.  It allows for self-imposed ratings according to the
standards of the individual, organization or country.  If ratings are
desired, PICS defines how and where a rating label should appear.  Browsers
and filtering software can read these standards and make decisions as
defined by the owner of these software applications.

Personally, I do not believe rating should be forced on any single
individual or WEB site, much in the same way I do not believe that I should
be told when I can use my telephone if it is my telephone.  However, I do
have concerns about third-party rating systems.  There are so many
important questions we have to ask:  Who is doing the rating?  What are
their qualifications?  Who determines the criteria?  How does the system
get implemented?  With the Internet's massive daily changes, how is content
validated?  And, more importantly, who validates the content?

How would rating work, if it could work at all?  There are 60 million-plus
pages on the WEB and it takes about one minute per page to rate.  To rate
every existing WEB page today, it would take about 60 million minutes - or
one million hours - or over 114 years.  Using 114 people working 24 hours a
day, the job would take a full year.  But the bad news is that as soon as
everything was rated, the process would have to start all over again,
because within a year the WEB would change drastically.  Even day-to-day
changes would be difficult to track.  That's why a self-rating system would
be the most cost-effective solution - as well as the most politically
correct.

I would be very concerned if mandatory rating is enforced.  We are
fortunate to live in a society that allows us the civil liberties that we
currently enjoy.  No single jurisdiction can - or should - govern the
Internet.  And technology will always evolve in order to get around this
type of government control.  There is simply too much content for any
single entity to monitor at this time.

Many people feel there should be no rating or controls legislated for the
Internet.  Legislation already exists to enforce proper conduct within a
country's Internet access.  Technology developed by industry will allow
individuals the control they want according to their own personal values.
 The masses should be educated as to emerging technologies that will offer
them choices - and how these technologies can be used safely.  Once people
understand how the technology can prevent problems, the divisive issues
currently facing us will become moot.

Today, we function in a global community, and we can no longer isolate
ourselves thinking we can "go it alone."  The Internet opens up worldwide
communications channels.  We can discover or share any information at any
time from any source, if we so choose.  We must strive to preserve the open
communication and the free exchange of ideas, while at the same time
protect our children when we as individuals feel it is necessary.
 Technology companies can and will provide the tools for us to accomplish
both free speech on the Internet - and protection for our families.

The Internet can be a truly wonderful resource for the entire world to
share.  Approximately 95% of it is, in fact, good.  Up until now, we have
done a great job of informing the general population of the negatives
inherent in a tool like the WEB.  But now it's time to educate people about
the positive aspects of the Internet, especially as it becomes their major
communication facility in the future.

What it comes down to is, a simple matter of choice.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------





Gordon Ross  CEO/President
Net Nanny Software International Inc.
Suite 108 - 525 Seymour Street
Vancouver, B.C.   V6B 3H7
Tel:  (604) 662-8522
E-mail: gordonR at netnanny.com








From mix at magusnet.com  Wed Nov 19 19:42:08 1997
From: mix at magusnet.com (Magus Mixmaster Anonymous Remailer Service)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:42:08 +0800
Subject: Fairy Gold
Message-ID: <7329b5c01fd0e2f938d13c3088a03f9e@magusnet.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
>>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.

If this were really true, you would have posted your message under your real 
name (a.k.a., your persistent identity).  The fact that you chose to make 
your statement anonymously only proves the inverse of what you say.

>I do not believe this to be true.  Of course, concepts are valid
>regardless of their source.  It would be unwise to take the statements
>even of established identities on faith.
>
>The advantage of persistent identity is that it allows the exploration
>of more complicated ideas.  Use of the persistent identity places a
>particular post in a greater context.
>
>There is only so much that can be done in a single post.  It is the
>mailing list equivalent of a sound bite.

We should remember that -- at least here in America and the rest of the 
so-called first world -- we live in the age of the sound bite where the 
"medium is the message."  Public opinion is manipulated by the puppetmasters 
who pull the emotional strings of John and Jane Q. Public sitting in front 
of the TV each night.  Witness how anyone who has watched a video on Waco is 
quickly being lumped into the category of an anti-government extremist 
(Terry Nichols had two copies of "Waco Under Siege" in his house).  The 
underlying message is, "don't consider any of the facts that the video 
viewer presents to you, just realize he/she is an extremist."

Frankly, I wasn't there at Waco so I don't know what happened.  However, as 
Monty pointed out in another post, the fact that the FBI/BATF/etc. 
administered the gas into the Davidian home (notice how I fail to use the 
media-sanctioned term "compound") is clearly an aggressive act on the part of 
the U.S. gov't.  Regardless of what the spinmeisters say (both on the left 
and the right) no human being with a conscience can take note of this fact 
and say that the feds were justified in their actions.  Gassing children?  
Come on.

A single sound bite on its own will do nothing, but a persistent group of 
sound bites presented over time with a recurring message can create a great 
amount of influence.  This is how public opinion is formed through mass
media channels.

But think about this: who is the author of these mass media sound bites?  
Can you name the person?

It's easy to say that it's the feds, the ZOG, the NWO crew...but you can't 
name an individual can you?  Why is that?

Seriously, think about this question.  It has a lot to do with a major
cypherpunk theme: anonymity.  But in this case, with hardly any conscious
responsibility.

Nerthus

P.S. Notice how my response becomes "negated" by Monty's previous response 
when you read the first 6 lines of text in order:

"
>>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
>>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.

If that were really true, you would have posted your message under your real
name (a.k.a., your persistent identity).  The fact that you chose to make 
your statement anonymously only proves the inverse of what you say.

>I do not believe this to be true. 
"

Think how easily Monty's "response" could be used against me if the quoted 
text marks (>) were removed.  Truths are easily twisted into lies by those 
who seek advantage from such actions.

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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 19 20:02:49 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:02:49 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199711200359.VAA02489@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:20:27 -0700
> From: Magus Mixmaster Anonymous Remailer Service <mix at magusnet.com>
> Subject: Re: Fairy Gold

> Monty Cantsin wrote:
> >Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
> >>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
> >>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.
> 
> If this were really true, you would have posted your message under your real 
> name (a.k.a., your persistent identity).  The fact that you chose to make 
> your statement anonymously only proves the inverse of what you say.

No, it only proves Monty doesn't believe what he says.

> Frankly, I wasn't there at Waco so I don't know what happened.  However, as 
> Monty pointed out in another post, the fact that the FBI/BATF/etc. 
> administered the gas into the Davidian home (notice how I fail to use the 
> media-sanctioned term "compound") is clearly an aggressive act on the part of 
> the U.S. gov't.  Regardless of what the spinmeisters say (both on the left 
> and the right) no human being with a conscience can take note of this fact 
> and say that the feds were justified in their actions.  Gassing children?  
> Come on.

To hell with gassing them, the issue is the bar-b-que that occurred after.

Something like 18 children were murdered and the US government and the
then Texas (bitch) govenor Ann Richards were complicent in the nefarious
deed. Someday she and every agent that participated will stand before a jury,
unfortunately the odds are it will be the jury of history and not their
peers.

Why were those kids deprived of the modern conveniences? Clearly the answer
"David and his followers wouldn't surrender" doesn't hold water. Those kids
deserve NO punishment for actions others *may* have committed, they were a
victim - whether of David or the actions of the gov. reps. is irrellevant.

Those people were given a public trust, they not only abused it but failed
miserably in its resolution. They must pay the price. Saying "I was
following orders" has no place in a democratic society anywhere; the
individual MUST be held accountable for their actions and they should not be
able to shirk that responsibility nor pass it off to some 3rd party.
Further, irrispective of their job or position in society or the government
the responsibilities AND rights of the individual must not be infringed AND
must take predidence over all other duties or responsibilties.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From declan at well.com  Wed Nov 19 20:11:32 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:11:32 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit agenda (December 1-3)
Message-ID: <v0300781ab09960e81d17@[204.254.22.110]>



[Note civil liberties and journalism groups are absent from the list of
organizations represented. --Declan]

===========


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                   CONTACT:
Wednesday, November 19, 1997                    Sydney Rubin, 301/654-5991
                                                        Malena Hougen,
202/828-9730



INTERNET/ONLINE SUMMIT: FOCUS ON CHILDREN RELEASES AGENDA FOR MEETING,
DECEMBER 1-3



WASHINGTON, D.C. - Organizers of the Internet/Online Summit: Focus on Children
today released an agenda for the historic three-day meeting of public
interest and family advocates, educators, industry leaders and law
enforcement officials joining forces to find  ways to enhance the safety
and education of children in cyberspace.

The meeting is the first time so many diverse organizations have come
together to address safety and content issues related to children and the
new mass medium. The Summit is the first in a series of discussions on
issues affecting children in cyberspace, including advertising, access,
privacy, and marketing and content.  The first meeting will focus on
content and safety.

The December 1-3 Summit will include speakers, panels, announcements of
initiatives taken by the Summit and its participants, and a small
exhibition of technological tools and educational resources available to
help parents manage children's time on-line.  Panelists will be announced
prior to the Summit.

The Summit Agenda, which is subject to change, follows:

MONDAY, DECEMBER 1,  5 p.m. - 8:30 p.m.
Registration and Opening Reception adjacent to technological tools kiosks

TUESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 7:30 a.m. - 6 p.m.
Breakfast
Call to Order
Speaker (Vice President Al Gore invited to speak)
Presentation on Good Content with the Public Broadcasting System and others
Framing the Issues: speaker Lois Jean White, President of the National PTA
Panel in Framing the Issues
Panel in "Safety"
Luncheon Speakers:      Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich, Secretary of
Commerce
William M. Daley

Presentation on Law Enforcement On-Line: Attorney General Janet Reno and
panelists
Presentation on Public Education: Secretary Richard W. Riley and panelists
Presentation on the Technology Tool Kit
Panel on Filtering and Ratings

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 3,  8:30 a.m. - noon
Breakfast
Review of Previous Day:  Christine Varney, Chairperson of the Summit
Congressional Roundtable with Summit Participants
Kids Panel Moderated by Linda Ellerbee
Conclusion

All activities will take place at the Renaissance Washington, D.C. Hotel at
999 Ninth Street, N.W.

Registration to attend the Summit must be done through the Summit's Web
site: www.kidsonline.org.  Separate registration forms are available at the
site for journalists and the public, as well as other information as it
become available.

A partial list of the organizations sponsoring the Summit includes:

AT&T                                                    America Online
American Library Association                            Center for
Democracy and Technology
Center for Media Education                              Children Now
The Children's Partnership                              CompuServe
The Direct Marketing Association                        Disney Online
Digital Equipment/Alta Vista                            Enough is Enough
Family Education Company                                IBM
Interactive Services Association                                The
Learning Company/Cyber Patrol
Microsoft Corporation                                   MCI Communication
Corporation
NETCOM                                          Net Nanny
National Association of Secondary School Principals
National Center for Missing & Exploited Children        National Consumers
League
National Education Association                          National Law Center
Surfwatch                                               Time Warner

# # #







From rubin at research.att.com  Wed Nov 19 20:12:08 1997
From: rubin at research.att.com (Avi Rubin)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:12:08 +0800
Subject: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
Message-ID: <199711200350.WAA29666@mgoblue.research.att.com>



Yeah, that license agreement was forced on us. We were
grateful they let us give away all the source code.

> From gnu at toad.com  Wed Nov 19 00:32:10 1997
> Delivery-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:32:11 -0500
> Return-Path: gnu at toad.com
> Received: from research.att.com (research-clone.research.att.com [135.207.30.100])
> 	by amontillado.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27270
> 	for <rubin at issr.research.att.com>; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:32:09 -0500 (EST)
> Received: from toad.com ([140.174.2.1]) by research-clone; Wed Nov 19 00:30:14 EST 1997
> Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA02158; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:30:06 -0800 (PST)
> Message-Id: <199711190530.VAA02158 at toad.com>
> X-Authentication-Warning: toad.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com, rubin at research.att.com, gnu at toad.com
> Subject: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:30:05 -0800
> From: John Gilmore <gnu at toad.com>
> Status: R
> 
> It has a screwy "non-commercial use only, AT&T gets everything, you
> get nothing" license, but otherwise it looks interesting.
> 
> 	John
> 
> From: Avi Rubin <rubin at research.att.com>
> 
> John,
> 
> You may remember that at Crypto, I described the Crowds system to you.
> The system is now robust and up and running, and we have ported it to
> windows and unix platforms, so just about anyone should be able to use
> it. In fact, if there is such a thing as Perl for macintosh, I'm sure
> it would work on that platform too.
> 
> We are very interested in getting more users of our system. As it is
> intended to provide privacy to web users, I thought that perhaps it is
> something that you and EFF would be interested in. Do you think you
> could put a link to the Crowds page on the EFF web site?  Anything
> else you can do to help increase the usage would be great, because our
> system has the property that the more poeple use it, the more secure
> it is. Let me know if you have any questions.
> 
> The Crowds page is:  http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds
> 
> Thanks,
> Avi
> 
> --
> 
> *********************************************************************
> Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin at research.att.com
> Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
> AT&T Labs - Research
> 180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
> Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
> USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809
> 
>    --> Check out http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/ for a new
>        book on web security (The Web Security Sourcebook).
> *********************************************************************
> 






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 19 20:36:57 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:36:57 +0800
Subject: Another blast from the past
Message-ID: <v03102804b0995f1609b7@[207.167.93.63]>



Another "blast from the past." Here Bob talks about showing up in Denver
for the visit by several heads of state, to stage some "street theater."

Odd that he suddenly gets so offended when I say a judge has committed a
capital crime.

Perhaps he's just more scared now than before. Or perhaps he's having
second thoughts about things. Or maybe he's had his visit. The simplest
solution is the likeliest: OTR.

--Tim May



At 7:40 AM -0700 6/6/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 8:19 am -0400 on 6/6/97, John Young wrote:
>
>
>> Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
>> to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
>> on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>>
>>    http://jya.com/denver.htm
>
>Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...
>
>Anyone up for a little road-trip?
>
>Yeah, I know. Everyone *else* has a *job*, or something... :-).

No, I don't have a job.

But there's no way in hell I'm going to expose myself to imprisonment in a
German jail to make some metaphorical point about the resurgence of fascism
in Germany.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 19 20:50:05 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:50:05 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711200435.XAA12526@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0 at pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 12:49 PM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels at mindspring.com> said:

>At 10:46 AM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8 at pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>>   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels at mindspring.com> said:
>>
>>>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>>>
>>>>--Tim May
>>
>>>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.
>>
>>>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>>>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>>>so fortunate.
>>
>><sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.

>Hey, it beats the stomping of jackboots and shouts of 'Sig Heil!'

>>
>>This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
>>house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
>>it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
>>shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
>>than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.

>Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is
>a rather odd last name for an American Indian.

My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
Mexican colony. You bring up the American Indians, it is interesting to
note that if they had bothered to stand up against the European invaders
and defended their boarders from the begining they more then likely would
still be running the place.

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

>>
>>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
>>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
>>with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
>>need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
>>Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
>>government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
>>citizens in poverty.

>Lets see.  Are you aware of how Texas, California, and New Mexico came to
>be part of the US?  Probably doesn't matter - those dang furriners had no
>right to the lands they lived on anyway, once the U.S. decided it wanted
>them.

So are you suggesting we give it back? Perhaps everyone should just pack
up and go back to Europe or Asia or Africa and give it all back to the
Indians? Of course you do know that the "Native Americans" that were in
North America at the time Europeans started to colonize North America were
not the "original" humans here. There were actually several waves of
humans coming over the Siberia-Alaska land bridge over a long period of
time. I am sure that the peace loving "Native Americans" wouldn't think of
conquering lands occupied by others now would they??

>I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole'
>want to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
>government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  

Personally I could care less what they do. It's not my problem it is
theirs. It is their responsibility to fix their problems. 

>This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
>it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
>towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.

There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
long as they are not doing it here. The same goes for the Germans, French,
Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 

I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
comming over and doing it in mine.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 19 20:52:54 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:52:54 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199711200452.WAA02757@einstein.ssz.com>



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                   POLL: YOUNG ADULTS WANT BETTER GOVERNMENT
                                       
     graphic November 19, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:57 p.m. EST (0357 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (AP) -- Most young adults don't necessarily want to
     reduce government's role in America but want it to do a better job,
     according to a new poll. As for themselves, however, they see their
     future not in government work but in private business.
     
     The survey by pollsters Peter Hart and Robert Teeter was released
     Wednesday at the kickoff of a project by corporations and nonprofit
     groups to increase public trust in government.
     
     In the poll, 40 percent of respondents said government can help them
     achieve their goals in life, compared with the 48 percent who said
     government programs and policies are a hindrance.
     
     But a large majority, 71 percent, answered that government could
     help with better leadership and management, and 60 percent would
     prefer improving the government over simply reducing its size and
     power.
     
     On working in government themselves, 66 percent said a career in the
     private sector is more appealing. The telephone survey of 505
     Americans between the ages of 18 and 34 was conducted October 29 and
     30. The margin of error is plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
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From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 19 20:55:34 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:55:34 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711192035.VAA20768@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711200445.XAA12630@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711192035.VAA20768 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 09:35 PM, Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> said:

>Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal,
>make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering their
>access to government services.

Yes and 4 out of 5 doctors in an independent study prefer Buffren. Would
you care to back this up with some actual facts.

>Anyone who has worked with these people
>knows that most of them work harder than native born Americans.

>Even aside from the strictly economic balance sheets, giving these people
>the opportunity to succeed in a free country is a significant moral
>benefit which must count in favor of free immigration.

I think it would be a significant moral benefit for these people to work
towards making their own countries free thereby giving all their
countrymen the opportunity to succeed rather than the few who manage to
slip under the wire.

>They also serve to make our country more multi-cultural, with greater
>awareness and appreciation of the value of alternate customs and
>lifestyles.  We develop "hybrid vigor", as our culture is cross
>fertilized by elements from all around the world.  The result is an
>incredibly dynamic and flexible culture, which is why the United States
>will continue to be a world leader for the next century.

What a bunch of liberal claptrap. Are they actually teaching this crap in
school nowadays??

>Of course, this gift of diversity causes immigrants to be hated and
>feared by racists such as Tim May, who sees them only as targets to mock
>with threats of murder:

Call 911 as some one has stolen your sense of humor.

>> Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>> This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>> illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>> Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 19 21:00:33 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:00:33 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <532d5c8e06a123ce2c6bc69646495202@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711200450.XAA12686@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <532d5c8e06a123ce2c6bc69646495202 at anon.efga.org>, on 11/19/97 
   at 07:12 PM, Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> said:

>At 10:27 PM 11/18/97 -0600, Mr. Geiger wrote:
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e at pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/18/97 
>>   at 11:34 PM, Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf at mindspring.com> said:
>>
>>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>>of it).
>>
>>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>>across the border. 
>>
>>And this would be a BadThing(TM)??
>>
>>- -- 
>>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
>>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>>
>>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
>>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>

>I am quite confused, I thought this was the cypherpunk list, i.e. national borders are just speed bumps, anarchy, all that stuff? Has there been some change in philosophy where this is now the nationalistic statist list? Put the gestapo at the borders to kill anyone trying to sneak in? Bus those that don't belong here home?

>Oooooh I now understand, you just hate, your hate for the government has now spilt over to where you hate citizen units that weren't born in this country. I think you, Mr. Geiger, would find a welcome if you submitted your resume to the Border Patrol, just think you could wear a nice spiffy uniform, and some jackboots, and carry a gun; don't drool when you get accepted.

>Just like all the psuedo "freedom fighters" in the militias that Tim is so hyped on, just different thugs that want to control other people's lifes to conform to their belief systems.

ad hominem (adj): marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus  Wed Nov 19 21:07:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:07:38 +0800
Subject: Fairy Gold
Message-ID: <199711200500.GAA21844@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
>>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.

If this were really true, you would have posted your message under your real 
name (a.k.a., your persistent identity).  The fact that you chose to make 
your statement anonymously only proves the inverse of what you say.

>I do not believe this to be true.  Of course, concepts are valid
>regardless of their source.  It would be unwise to take the statements
>even of established identities on faith.
>
>The advantage of persistent identity is that it allows the exploration
>of more complicated ideas.  Use of the persistent identity places a
>particular post in a greater context.
>
>There is only so much that can be done in a single post.  It is the
>mailing list equivalent of a sound bite.

We should remember that -- at least here in America and the rest of the 
so-called first world -- we live in the age of the sound bite where the 
"medium is the message."  Public opinion is manipulated by the puppetmasters 
who pull the emotional strings of John and Jane Q. Public sitting in front 
of the TV each night.  Witness how anyone who has watched a video on Waco is 
quickly being lumped into the category of an anti-government extremist 
(Terry Nichols had two copies of "Waco Under Siege" in his house).  The 
underlying message is, "don't consider any of the facts that the video 
viewer presents to you, just realize he/she is an extremist."

Frankly, I wasn't there at Waco so I don't know what happened.  However, as 
Monty pointed out in another post, the fact that the FBI/BATF/etc. 
administered the gas into the Davidian home (notice how I fail to use the 
media-sanctioned term "compound") is clearly an aggressive act on the part of 
the U.S. gov't.  Regardless of what the spinmeisters say (both on the left 
and the right) no human being with a conscience can take note of this fact 
and say that the feds were justified in their actions.  Gassing children?  
Come on.

A single sound bite on its own will do nothing, but a persistent group of 
sound bites presented over time with a recurring message can create a great 
amount of influence.  This is how public opinion is formed through mass
media channels.

But think about this: who is the author of these mass media sound bites?  
Can you name the person?

It's easy to say that it's the feds, the ZOG, the NWO crew...but you can't 
name an individual can you?  Why is that?

Seriously, think about this question.  It has a lot to do with a major
cypherpunk theme: anonymity.  But in this case, with hardly any conscious
responsibility.

Nerthus

P.S. Notice how my response becomes "negated" by Monty's previous response 
when you read the first 6 lines of text in order:

"
>>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
>>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.

If that were really true, you would have posted your message under your real
name (a.k.a., your persistent identity).  The fact that you chose to make 
your statement anonymously only proves the inverse of what you say.

>I do not believe this to be true. 
"

Think how easily Monty's "response" could be used against me if the quoted 
text marks (>) were removed.  Truths are easily twisted into lies by those 
who seek advantage from such actions.

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 19 21:12:36 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:12:36 +0800
Subject: Traffic Analysis Tip #3207
Message-ID: <199711200458.FAA21590@basement.replay.com>



TRAFFIC ANALYSIS TIP #3207: Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD)

When performing traffic analysis and/or stylometry for the purpose of
discerning the sometimes subtle differences between genuine mental
imbalance and affectation of the same by boilerplate government and/or
corporate shills, one needs to take into account the possible role that
'Seasonal Affective Disorder,' (SAD), may play in emotive attacks on
the target, be it a group or a particular subject.

The onset of SAD can often be recognized by the correlation between
increasingly emotional attacks and specifically monitorable elements
of seasonal changes, such as the decreasing amount of light in the
northern and southern climes as winter advances.
Examples of this can be easily charted using posts originating from
ISP's such as sympatico.ca. The data can then be compared to that
garnered through an analysis of Hettinga's posts, showing that the 
latter are goal-oriented emotive attacks designed to provide identity-
associated confirmation/support of the current round of anonymous posts
aimed at denigrating the cypherpunks mailing list by associating it
directly, in the minds of others, with one or two individuals/targets
on the list.

Note that although SAD can aggravate existing conditions, such as OCD
(Obssesive-Compulsive Disorder), it does not change the basic traits
of those conditions.
The excessive diatribes of Choate, for instance, upon having a few
lines of one of his posts changed/misquoted by Toto/TruthMonger, were
shown by analysis to have been easily deflected by others into a more
generalized attack/defense-of-his-position.
While Hettinga's current attack might easily be confused with an
identity-fixation focus of the same general form of OCD, closer 
analysis would show that his posts continually return to goal-
oriented repetitive misstatements aimed toward linking the individual
to a specifically designed mind-construct being advanced by the
para//el anonymous posts.

Likewise, the effect of Seasonal Affective Disorder on those afflicted
with a wider variety of interconnected dysfuntionalities, such as the
ADHD/Tourette/OCD/Schizoid tendencies of TruthMonger #1, is to merely
increase the volatility of already existing conditions.
Analysis of the known posts of #1, under a variety of personas and
anonymous list offerings, shows the same wide set of dysfunctional 
anomalies working at cross-purposes on a broad spectrum of issues.
One of the keys to differentiating these posts from those produced
by boilerroom spook operations is recognizing the existence of 
multiple underlying signs of a broader range of diagnosic criterion
than is present in a willful affectation of dysfunctional conditions
designed to elicit para//el emotive reactions in other subscribers
to the mailing list.

The effect/influence of SAD has been shown in the past to be much
greater during high levels of El Nino activity.

TAT#3207/coe






From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 19 21:13:24 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:13:24 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971119103908.23634C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <199711200457.XAA12776@users.invweb.net>



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In <Pine.LNX.3.95.971119103908.23634C-100000 at westsec.denver.ssds.com>, on
11/19/97 
   at 10:55 AM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes at ssds.com> said:

>Pretty screwy if you ask me, but the court system doesn't have to make
>sense.  Since court decisions seem based on case law and not any
>semblance of morality(?) or constitutional contractual  obligation judges
>seem free to find the exact bit of case law that defends their decisions.

Reminds me of an old Sci-Fi story where in the future all the courtrooms
were computerized. The two opposing lawers would submit disks containing
case law to the computer. One lawer would present one case and the
opposing lawer would present a case that over ruled it. This would go back
and forth until one of the lawers presented a case that could not be over
ruled by the other.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus  Wed Nov 19 21:32:32 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:32:32 +0800
Subject: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711200527.GAA25040@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>Bob Hettinga wrote:
>> BTW, Emerson, Dickenson, Whitman, Thureau, etc., were part
>> of the same ideological outpouring which, in the theological arena, was the
>> Great Awakening. A lot can be said for the view that this was American
>> Romanticism, as Chopin, Byron, the Brontes, Austen, etc., were all
>> happening in roughly the same couple of generations. Later, like libertines
>> and enthusiasts throughout history, they became extremely repressive. We
>> eventually came to call them Victorians. (Sound familiar, you baby boomers?)
>
>After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
>other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
>for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.

"THE GREAT AWAKENING

"A conservative reaction against the world view of the new science was 
bound to follow, and the first half of the eighteenth century witnessed a 
number of religious revivals in both England and America.  They were 
sometimes desperate efforts to reassert the old values in the face of the 
new and, oddly enough, were themselves the direct product of the new cult of 
feeling, a philosophy which argued that man's greatest pleasure was derived 
from the good he did for others and that his sympathetic emotions (his joy as 
well as his tears) should not be contained."

 -- The Norton Anthology of American Literature, Third Edition, Volume 1

Being a New Englander, Bob should know about the revivalist of Northampton, 
Massachusetts: Jonathan Edwards.  His name is synonymous with the "Great 
Awakening."

As for the religious/ethical awakening that occurred prior to the War 
between the States, that has generally come to be known as "American 
Transcendentalism," especially the works of Whitman, Emerson and Thoreau.

Nerthus

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From fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU  Wed Nov 19 21:50:27 1997
From: fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU (Fabrice Planchon)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:50:27 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19971120004302.39634@math.princeton.edu>



On Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 10:08:45PM -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Mexican colony. You bring up the American Indians, it is interesting to
> note that if they had bothered to stand up against the European invaders
> and defended their boarders from the begining they more then likely would
> still be running the place.

yeah yeah, sure. Because history tells you they didn't, perhaps ? They
lost. Period. Even in south america, where they were better organized
and quickly realized they had to fight, they lost. A matter of
technology, I would say....

> "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

History shows that protectionism doesn't lead anywhere usually. I think
your whole point is flawed, anyway. On one hand you complained about a
gouvernement which takes your money in taxes, and on the other hand you
want the same gouvernement to protect you from the invading mexican scum
? I don't get it. Freedom means freedom of move, and that means that
people will go where they think they can get a better life, wether you
like it or not. Besides, over the past century, a good deal of
interesting people in this country have been emigrants, anyway. So, at
least, you should phrase your point like this "I don't care if an indian
software engineer comes in California, but I don't want to see mexicans
unless they have a PhD". At least that way you will be more coherent.

> >>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
> >>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it

Actually, it is for a good part. As a few european countries are
responsable for the current shitty situation in their former colonies,
the US aren't clean either when you look at what's going on in south
america. Like it or not. Somehow you want to eat the cake and have it all.

> There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
> apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
> long as they are not doing it here. The same goes for the Germans, French,
> Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 

If you (I mean this country) had had this attitude in the past, I don't
think you would be where you are today.
Being in what is supposed to be one of the best academic places around,
I can tell you that if you were to round up and send back home all the
people who don't carry a US passport you wouldn't be left with that
much. (Please avoid saying "oh well, these have a green card and can
legally stay. My whole point is that if borders shouln't have a sense
when money, software, ideas, speech, whatever are concerned, this
applies to people as well. Otherwise your logic is different from what I
was taught)

> I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
> comming over and doing it in mine.

You may own your house and the garden which surrounds it, but otherwise
I doubt you have any more right than me, a random mexican, the guy next
door, on the street which passes by. Or to say it better, you can't
enforce any claimed right. Maybe you can on your street, but what about
the next street ? and the next ? What are you going to do ? create a
militia to defend a few blocks ? and then a bigger one to defend your
town ? pretty soon you will have a nice organization, collecting taxes
to pay the guards at the border of the territory. That's called a
gouvernement ;-) 

                          F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 19 22:23:06 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:23:06 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit II (December 1-3)
Message-ID: <199711200616.HAA29396@basement.replay.com>



[Note government criminal and pacifist groups are absent from the list
 of organizations represented. --Defcon]
===========
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                   CONTACT:
Wednesday, November 19, 1997                     Anonymous

INTERNET/ONLINE SUMMIT: FOCUS ON FASCISTS RELEASES AGENDA FOR MEETING,
DECEMBER 1-3

WASHINGTON, D.C.-Organizers of the Internet/Online Summit: Focus on 
Fascists today released an agenda for the historic three-day meeting 
of free speech and freedom advocates, marksmen, guerilla leaders and
Constitution enforcement officials joining forces to find  ways to 
enhance the safety and freedom of citizens in cyberspace.

The meeting is the first time so many diverse organizations have come
together to address freedom and content issues related to citizens and
the established mass medium which has operated exceedingly well without
government interference. 
The Summit is the first in a series of discussions on issues affecting
free citizens in cyberspace, including advertising, access, privacy, 
and marketing and content.  The first meeting will focus on fascism and
safety.

The December 1-3 Summit will include speakers, panels, announcements of
initiatives taken by the Summit and its participants, and a small
exhibition of technological tools and commonly available munitions
to help citizens manage a censor's time off-line.  Panelists will be 
anonymous prior to the Summit.

The Summit Agenda, which is subject to armed intervention, follows:

MONDAY, DECEMBER 1,  5 p.m. - 8:30 p.m.
Registration and Opening Reception adjacent to technological tools 
weapons caches.

TUESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 7:30 a.m. - 6 p.m.
K-rations
Call to Arms
Target Practice (Vice President Al Gore invited to pose)
Presentation on Fascist-approved Content with the Propaganda
Broadcasting 
System and others
Framing the Targets: targets Lois Jean White, President of the National
PTA Panel in Framing the Targets
Panel in "Release the Safety"
Luncheon Targets: Target of the Month Newt Gingrich, Godfather of
Government Theft William M. Daley

Presentation on Fascist Oppression On-Line: Attorney General Janet Reno
and small, moving-duck panelists
Presentation on Public Propaganda: Secretary Richard W. Riley and 
affirmatively-nodding panelists
Presentation on the Technology Munitions Kit
Panel on Censoring and Blocking

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 3,  8:30 a.m. - noon
K-rations
Review of Previous Reichs:  Christine Varney, Chairperson of the Summit
Bavarian Roundtable with Summit Shills
Kids Panel Molested by Moral Majority Leaders
Armageddon

All activities will take place at a site overlooking the Renaissance 
Washington, D.C. Hotel at 666 Sixth Street, N.W.

Registration to attend the Summit must be done through the Summit's Web
site: www.hotnastykidsonline.orgy.  Separate registration forms are 
available at the site for reportwhores and the pubic, as well as other
target information as it become available.

A partial list of the organizations sponsoring the Summit includes:

Anonymous Arms Dealers 
Anonymous Paramilitarists
Anonymous Freedom Fighters
Anonyous Americans
Anonymous Libertarians
Anonymous Ninjas
Anonyous Assholes
Anonymous Average Citizens
Anonymous Citizens Living In Fear Of Their Government
Anonymous Secret Government Organizations
Anonymous BATF Agents of Oklahoma
Anonyous Mind-Controlled Dupes of the New World Order
Tim C. May
# # #






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov 19 22:28:04 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:28:04 +0800
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971120010958.006d23b4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b09976cf9c73@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:09 PM -0700 11/19/97, John Young wrote:

>Perhaps Tim May is correct in his assessment of Jim,
>but NTSC's upcoming hearing should produce more
>reliable technical information than Kallstrom appears to
>be comfortable handling -- given his bent for melodrama
>fine details of investigation seem to be an annoyance,
>although he appeared to like the assurance of the CIA's
>virtual reality.
>
>Kallstrom also said that the case will remain open, I guess
>in case Boeing or TWA or something needs to be zapped
>by blind justice.

My main point in my post was about the "clampdown on civil liberties" after
the dual "terrorist incidents" of Flight 800 and Richard Jewell, and how
those liberties are not being given back to us now that the crash of Flight
800 has been ruled a non-terrorist attack.

Analysis of the missile theory was not my main thrust.

There's always a chance it _was_ a missile, or a bomb, or somesuch. I don't
see compelling evidence. The CIA reconstruction looked quite complete and
plausible to me.

We can argue for the next 30 years about the vapor trail from the grassy
knoll, but it seems like a wild goose chase to me.

And there are much more substantiated cases of malfeasance. If 1% of the
media attention given to Flight 900 had been given to
Inslaw/Cabazon/Systematics and the Octopus/Casolaro/Contras mess, much more
useful things would be learned. Learned by the American public, that is.

For starters, folks ought to do a Web search on J. Orlin Grabbe, who was on
the Cypherpunks list a couple of years ago. Lots of interesting stuff, and
his articles are getter wider distribution now.

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Nov 20 14:53:47 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:53:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971120164135.035dba00@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199711202253.RAA22495@users.invweb.net>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19971120164135.035dba00 at panix.com>, on 11/20/97 
   at 04:41 PM, Duncan Frissell <frissell at panix.com> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
>>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
>>Mexican colony. 

>Move North.

Hmmm just like the Indians should have moved West?

>What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
>contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
>rent,  etc.

When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
this is called Treason.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From aleph at cco.caltech.edu  Wed Nov 19 23:16:36 1997
From: aleph at cco.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:16:36 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119230238.00cb62b0@pop-server.caltech.edu>



Yipee!  The know-nothings are back and vehement about it.
At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0 at pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>   at 12:49 PM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels at mindspring.com> said:
>
>>At 10:46 AM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>
>>>In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8 at pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>>>   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels at mindspring.com> said:
>>>
>>>>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>>>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>>>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>>>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>>>>
>>>>>--Tim May
>>>
>>>>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.
>>>
>>>>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>>>>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>>>>so fortunate.
>>>
>>><sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.
>
>>Hey, it beats the stomping of jackboots and shouts of 'Sig Heil!'
>
>>>
>>>This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
>>>house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
>>>it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
>>>shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
>>>than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.
>
>>Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is
>>a rather odd last name for an American Indian.
>
>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
>Mexican colony. You bring up the American Indians, it is interesting to
>note that if they had bothered to stand up against the European invaders
>and defended their boarders from the begining they more then likely would
>still be running the place.
>
>"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
>
>>>
>>>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
>>>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
>>>with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
>>>need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
>>>Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
>>>government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
>>>citizens in poverty.
>
>>Lets see.  Are you aware of how Texas, California, and New Mexico came to
>>be part of the US?  Probably doesn't matter - those dang furriners had no
>>right to the lands they lived on anyway, once the U.S. decided it wanted
>>them.
>
>So are you suggesting we give it back? Perhaps everyone should just pack
>up and go back to Europe or Asia or Africa and give it all back to the
>Indians? Of course you do know that the "Native Americans" that were in
>North America at the time Europeans started to colonize North America were
>not the "original" humans here. There were actually several waves of
>humans coming over the Siberia-Alaska land bridge over a long period of
>time. I am sure that the peace loving "Native Americans" wouldn't think of
>conquering lands occupied by others now would they??
>
>>I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole'
>>want to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
>>government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  
>
>Personally I could care less what they do. It's not my problem it is
>theirs. It is their responsibility to fix their problems. 
>
>>This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
>>it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
>>towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.
>
>There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
>apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
>long as they are not doing it here. The same goes for the Germans, French,
>Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 
>
>I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
>comming over and doing it in mine.
>
>
>- -- 
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
            
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
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                             -Colin






From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 19 23:30:11 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:30:11 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119230238.00cb62b0@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <199711200717.CAA14321@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971119230238.00cb62b0 at pop-server.caltech.edu>, on 11/20/97 
   at 02:02 AM, "Colin A. Reed" <aleph at cco.caltech.edu> said:

>Yipee!  The know-nothings are back and vehement about it.

hmmmmm Quoted 115 lines of text for that one-liner?!?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From schear at lvdi.net  Thu Nov 20 00:17:05 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:17:05 +0800
Subject: Flight 007 and our Civil Liberties
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09795d84b18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b09997458bfb@[208.129.55.202]>



>>So, these were the two big events which stimulated the FAA, under higher
>>orders, to require mandatory ID of all travelling passengers. And more
>>multimillion dollar sniffers to be installed in airports.

What funny about the sniffers is that they can undoubtedly be fooled by almost any compounds (e.g., ammonium nitrate) having the hydrogen-nitrogen bond signature common to most all explosives.  Tricksters will undoubtedly have fun dusting the lobbies of airports with such chemicals an watching the resulting fun and confusion.

--Steve







From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Thu Nov 20 00:51:04 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:51:04 +0800
Subject: GAK
In-Reply-To: <e6c0e6142c88bba527aef8e8ed4f4578@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971120014013.77190B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy C. Mayonnaise is not only as queer as 
> a three dollar bill, but he is also into 
> having sex with children.
> 
>   ___
>  <*,*> Timothy C. Mayonnaise
>  [`-']
>  ' - '
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Thu Nov 20 01:03:16 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:03:16 +0800
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <UwnQ4MdR7Gmffv8HRfEj/A==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971120015244.77190D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim May will fuck anything that moves, but he'd 
> rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.
> 
>            /\
>         __/__\__
>          | 00 |  Tim May
>         |:  \ :|
>          | \_/|
>           \__/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From jito at eccosys.com  Thu Nov 20 17:11:24 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:11:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: At least it's not meat...
Message-ID: <3474DFA1.7DED@eccosys.com>


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From rfarmer at HiWAAY.net  Thu Nov 20 17:19:42 1997
From: rfarmer at HiWAAY.net (Randall Farmer)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:19:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Doh! (Re: Stylometry)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971118211117.5311A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119205057.8603A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>


There was a significant glitch in the version of the stylometry aid I
posted...read on if you care. 

Also, does anyone know where I can find some *real* stylometry programs (i.e.,
ones that do the math, etc.)? 

===============================================================================

I added the conjunctions-as-sentence-splitters after originally writing the
message with the program in it, and messed it up while updating the message to
match. Once you change this, it should catch most of the intended conjunctions
(not all of them -- specifically, not the ones with the comma on a different
line from the conjunction). 

> echo [and/or/but as sentence-splitters]
> grep -c "and,"<$1
          ^^^^^^
Should be ", and"

> grep -c "or,"<$1
          ^^^^^
Should be ", or"

> grep -c "but,"<$1
          ^^^^^^
Should be ", but"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer at hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer






From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Thu Nov 20 19:14:32 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:14:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <01bcf62b$815f3be0$06060606@russell>


>>What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
>>contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
>>rent,  etc.
>
>When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
>is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
>boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
>this is called Treason.


And when you get this sort of claptrap it is called bigottry.

If you really believed all that pseudo-Libertarian crap you write
you would understand that national government is no more
legitimate than trans national.

Why should there be artificial, government imposed controls
on labour? Let the free market decide. 


            Phill









From gnu at toad.com  Thu Nov 20 20:39:46 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:39:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Government's reply in Bernstein appeal; Dec 8 hearing coming
Message-ID: <199711210420.UAA12310@toad.com>


The Government's 38-page reply argues that:

	* The EAR's Export Controls Are Not a Facially Unconstitutional
	  Prior Restraint
	* The EAR's Export Controls Satisfy the First Amendment Standards
	  Governing Content-Neutral Regulations
	* The District Court's Declaratory and Injunctive Relief is Too Broad

The brief is available in graphical page images in:

	http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/ 

(Reload the page in your browser if you have an older version cached.)

Several amicus briefs, filed on November 10 along with Professor
Bernstein's appeal brief, are also newly on the Web.  The full set of
filings for this appeal includes:

	Government's appeal brief
	Bernstein's appeal brief
	Amicus briefs from:
		Law professors
		EPIC & civil liberties organizations
		American Assoc. for the Advencement of Science (missing)
		Thomas Jefferson Center, re Founders' use of crypto
		RSA & NCSA & others, re reduced security from controls
	Government's reply brief

The Court will now digest this large meal of cellulose, then hold a
hearing in which the judges can question the lawyers from both sides,
about anything they are unclear about.  They will then deliberate, and
write and issue their decision.

The appeal hearing is on December 8, at 9AM at the Ninth Circuit Court
of Appeals, 95 Seventh Street, San Francisco.  This is *not* the same
location as earlier hearings in the case.

We hope you can come, to witness the struggle for civil rights for
cryptographers, to speak with the press who attend, to meet with other
people concerned about cryptography policy, and to show the judges
that the public cares how they decide this case.

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation





From gls.mix.dom4 at aol  Thu Nov 20 22:55:56 1997
From: gls.mix.dom4 at aol (gls.mix.dom4 at aol)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:55:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 29 Million Fresh E-Mail Addresses for only $35 !!!
Message-ID: <>


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From gls.mix.dom4 at aol  Thu Nov 20 22:55:56 1997
From: gls.mix.dom4 at aol (gls.mix.dom4 at aol)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:55:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 29 Million Fresh E-Mail Addresses for only $35 !!!
Message-ID: <>


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From: trim at lovinlife.com (trim at lovinlife.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:16:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711210913.EAA28299@iconmail.bellatlantic.net>


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From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 13:28:51 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:28:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [cpe:4977] Re: Personal use crypto export
In-Reply-To: <34450E74.5C1@acm.org>
Message-ID: <3475FA7D.32A9@dev.null>


Ian Goldberg wrote:
> >(f) Special provisions: encryption software subject to EI controls.
> >
> >(1) Only a U.S. citizen or permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C.
> >1101(a)(20) may export or reexport encryption items controlled for EI
> >reasons under this License Exception.

> So I can't take my laptop to Anguilla, right?  (I'm not a US citizen or
> permanent resident; I'm pretty sure I don't fall under the TMP exception
> either, but I haven't checked in a while.)

Check out the regulations quoted.
A wide variety of people, such as all (or certain types of) students
qualify as 'permanent residents' under some regulations (but not
under others). 
The 'qualifying' portions of various regulations often change on
a whim. e.g. - qualification for dual citizenship of US born 
children who immigrate with their parents to another country before
they reach the age of consent.

The bottom line is that if you get an opinion from some legal source
or another (preferably in writing), it is rarely worthwhile for some
gubmint dweeb to seriously fuck with you, unless they 'want' to fuck
you for some other reason and need an excuse.
  (The Law of Karma applies, nonetheless.)

In short, cover your ass and don't use my name when crossing borders.

TotoMonger







From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Fri Nov 21 15:17:10 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:17:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971121184226.326M-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <97Nov21.181732est.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>


On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Both are necessary for the electorate in a democracy, and our supreme
> > court says we cannot teach virtue in public school, and the educators have
> > stopped teaching reason.
> 
> You are argueing that the religions have a monopoly on virtue?

No, but I am arguing that purely secular *GOVERNMENT* is incapable of
teaching it, or acting as an example - Normally you must know something or
be able to act out something in order to teach it.  Cypherpunks contains a
constant stream of government not even being hypocritical (the compliment
vice pays to virtue) - they simply act viceous.  If it ever gets something
right it is usually voiced as an unintentional consequence.  I can teach
saying Government is an example of what not to do, but Government itself
cannot do the same.  But even without getting religous I can teach virtue
as a positive instead of a series of negatives.

For example, you can teach virtue based on Aristotle, or even Socrates. 
Or as an objectivist might point out, Ayn Rand.  Although I haven't
attempted to create a curriculum, I have come across many books just in my
economics readings that don't mention God once, but mention various
virtues as such (though not always by that word).  I know someone who is
very far from my Religous beliefs, but otherwise we agree on Libertarian
ideas and the need to instill virtue - he now homeschools his children.

Even my religous view holds that those who don't hold it are exhonerated
or condemned by their own consciences (if properly formed which is a prior
responsibility) [Romans Chapter 1 is the most often cited passage]. 

Thrift (seeking higher quality at lower prices), Delaying Gratification
(e.g. Save instead of buying on credit), Temperance (we do have a drug
problem and we see how government approaches it), Prudence (ditto with
teenage sex) are all Virtues by natural law, and I could number more and
come up with a list that everyone who believe in the concept of virtue
would recognize.  These truths are accessible via reason alone - if people
would let reason reach the conclusion.

Religion is neither sufficient, nor even necessary to teach virtue, and
often fails to teach it.  But in the past it has tended to recognize
virtue and teach it before purely secular institutions.  The French
Revolution was (false) reason without virtue, and purely secular, and
everyone knows the result.  Our founders, including the Deists and
Unitarians all point out that virtue is necessary for liberty and
demonstrate that from reason. 

Within those who identify themselves as "The Religous Right", some I agree
with and some I don't, and within both, some positions are consistent and
reasonable, and some are not.  I tend to ask silly questions like my first
response to this thread ("public" school v.s. "government" schools).  If
they accept the authority of the Bible, I can usually win the argument,
but I have taken the time to develop a Libertarian Theology.  I also argue
that they do damage to their own cause by having government try to do
things which they will fail at and both the left and the right don't like
it when I argue for separation of church and state - but say that the
state should get entirely out of things like education and charity
(welfare and healthcare) because it is none of the state's business - the
churches (and other voluntary organizations) are responsible for these
functions.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From HRaSZ4U1o at thesocket.com  Sat Nov 22 04:18:16 1997
From: HRaSZ4U1o at thesocket.com (HRaSZ4U1o at thesocket.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:18:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Are You In Need Of A Lifestyle Change...?
Message-ID: <G2836>


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joining our team, you will actually learn how you can preserve it and
how to strategically invest it!

I invite you to call me for more details at 1-800-784-1710 Ext 1565.
This is a free 2 minute recording, so call right now!

Prosperous regards,

Paul Rawlins
This Is Not Multi Level Marketing/Serious Inquiries Only

























From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 18:03:19 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:03:19 +0800
Subject: Nonookie Masturbatshi beats Dimitri's time with the 'babes'...
Message-ID: <34762B94.6BF@dev.null>



* Several news organizations reported in March and April on
Japanese men's increasing sexual fascination with high school and
junior-high school girls.  One expert interviewed by the New
York Times, Hiroyuki Fukuda, 30, editor of a magazine whose
title can be translated Anatomical Illustrations of Junior High
School Girls, said, "The age at which the girls seem interesting is
clearly dropping.  But it's only the maniacs who go for girls
below the third grade." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)







From sd at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 18:03:19 1997
From: sd at dev.null (Spin Doctor)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:03:19 +0800
Subject: And made to write bad checks...
Message-ID: <34762EE0.4187@dev.null>



* In August the Johor Baru Religious Affairs Department in
Malaysia announced that convicted sexual "deviants" would, in
addition to serving prison time as punishment, be bound and
whipped. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NEWS OF THE WEIRD, founded in 1988, is a nationally syndicated
newspaper column distributed by Universal Press Syndicate.
Individuals may have the columns mailed to them electronically,
free of charge, approximately three weeks after the cover date,
which is the date when most subscribing newspapers will publish
the column.  Send a message to notw-request at nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 18:03:23 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:03:23 +0800
Subject: [cpe:5005] Further Costs of War
In-Reply-To: <199711212302.AAA19454@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3476231E.54D3@dev.null>



Monty Cansturbate wrote:

re: Income Tax Witholding

> To put this in perspective, multiply your income by 1.4.  For example,
> if your income is $50,000, that would be another $20,000 you would
> have every single year.  Where could you spend that money?
> 
> If you simply saved it at 3% a year, in 30 years you would have about
> $950,000.  That's all for doing exactly what you do now.  Who needs
> national health insurance?

  Even if it was withold and held in escrow until it became due,
with the citizen who earned the money drawing interest off of it,
the result would be a windfall for the citizens.
  Add the gain in interest by the government to the loss of interest
by the citizen, and the already outrageous government theft becomes
even more so.

  The government loves to play 'deductions'.
  Translation~~We will take an even larger amount of your money than
we can ultimately get away with stealing without getting lynched, in 
order for us to draw interest on it instead of you, and then pretend
to be working in your interest by dropping some loose change during
our post-robbery getaway.

LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT:
...and to the US Government, I leave a million dollars, so that they
can buy a half-dozen toilet seats for the restrooms next to the
Welfare and Farm Subsidy offices.

TruthMonger
"Who didn't grow cotton last year, either, and is still waiting for
 his check for $300,000."







From sd at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 18:03:36 1997
From: sd at dev.null (Spin Doctor)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:03:36 +0800
Subject: "What the murderous, sodomizing kidnapper *meant* to say, was..."
Message-ID: <34762C87.208F@dev.null>



* An ad, from an Atlanta Journal story in May on the increasing
number of Internet Web pages devoted to classified ads from
prison inmates seeking romantic relationships:  "Aren't you fed
up with meeting all the wrong men?" [asked California inmate
Ronald E. Mays, who also asked] "[Are you] In search of a truly
honest and good man . . . ?"  (Mays is serving life without parole
for first-degree murder, second-degree murder, sodomy with
force, and kidnapping.) 

>From News of the Weird:
^
|







From amp at pobox.com  Fri Nov 21 18:03:44 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:03:44 +0800
Subject: Factor a 2048-bit number
In-Reply-To: <199711211845.SAA02254@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.880141957.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>



Could be a Mersene prime. The largest prime mersenne found is several 
hundred thousand digits long. Don't know how knowing it was a mersenne 
would help the factorization though.

amp

------------------------
  From: Antonomasia <ant at notatla.demon.co.uk>
  Subject: Re: Factor a 2048-bit number 
  Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:45:09 +0000 (GMT) 
  To: cypherpunks at ssz.com


> Monty Cantsin
> 
> > Hint 2: There is an observation which suggests the number may be
> > factored.  A one word hint will reveal this observation.
> 
> > (I want to hold off on Hint 3 for a little while in case somebody is
> > already working on the problem.  If anybody wants me to withhold Hint
> > 3, please post a message to the list and I may do so.  It seems to me
> > that it will be more fun to solve without Hint 3.)
> 
> > Wouldn't it be neat to actually factor a 2048-bit number which was the
> > product of two large primes?
> 
> The wording of the original challenge suggested there was a trick to
> this particular factorisation.   My guess that q=p+2 was wrong, so
> square rooting (cheap) and using the 2 nearest odd integers was a loser.
> 
> 
> --
> ##############################################################
> # Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
> # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
> ##############################################################
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 11/21/97
Time: 14:51:33
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov 21 18:04:57 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:04:57 +0800
Subject: H.R. 2991 The Electronic Commerce Enhancement Act  (fwd)
Message-ID: <v04002733b09ba3b5b109@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:18:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank Sudia <aurelius at panix.com>
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb at ai.mit.edu>
Subject: H.R. 2991 The Electronic Commerce Enhancement Act  (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Frank Sudia <aurelius at panix.com>

>From the Am Bar Assn d/s list...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:57:18 -0500
From: "Bennett, Daniel" <Daniel.Bennett at mail.house.gov>
To: "'st-isc at abanet.org'" <st-isc at abanet.org>
Subject: H.R. 2991 The Electronic Commerce Enhancement Act

Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA) and Rep. W.J. (Billy) Tauzin (R-LA) have introduced
the Electronic Commerce Enhancement Act (H.R. 2991), which would instruct
federal agencies to make versions of their forms available online and
allow people to sign the forms using digital signatures--the online
equivalent of written signatures.  At present, only some government
documents are available online, and most agencies accept only physical
signatures to verify the authenticity of forms sent to them.  Rep. Eshoo
serves on the House Commerce Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade,
and Consumer Protection, which is chaired by Rep. Tauzin.

>Bill Text is at
>http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2991:
>Bill Summary is at
>http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d105:h.r.02991:
Rep. Anna Eshoo
http://www-eshoo.house.gov/
Rep. Billy Tauzin
http://www.house.gov/tauzin/

Daniel Bennett
Technology Liaison
Rep. Anna Eshoo
308 Cannon Building
Washington, DC 20515
(202) 225-8104
http://www-eshoo.house.gov/
daniel.bennett at mail.house.gov

--------------------------------------------------------------
	Frank W. Sudia, Consultant, Strategic Ventures
	1 Bankers Trust Plaza, MS 2371, New York, NY 10006
	Tel: 212-250-5242  Fax: 212-250-9347  Home: 212-786-1356
	frank.sudia at bankerstrust.com
--------------------------------------------------------------



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From root at localhost.nycmetro.com  Fri Nov 21 18:05:24 1997
From: root at localhost.nycmetro.com (Harka)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:05:24 +0800
Subject: spy_1.html
Message-ID: <199711211736.RAA00139@localhost.nycmetro.com>




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                      [Click here for MCA Home Video]
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Crocodile attacks man, gets poked in the eyes
   Next Story: Mantle auction to proceed with lock of hair
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Friday November 21 4:56 PM EST 
   
Spy cameras -- latest motivational tool?

   SINGAPORE (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is selling what it says is the
   latest motivational tool to get the best from staff -- spy cameras.
   
   "Productivity really does go up with this system. You see a very quick
   return on your investment in any business," said Jeffrey Tan, whose
   company ABC Asia Pacific markets 'Spy Eyes'.
   
   "It is a deterrent for staff who are lazy or who might want to steal
   from the cash register," he said.
   
   Tan told Reuters Friday he became the Asian distribution agent for the
   U.S.-made Spy Eyes camera surveillance system after installing it at
   his own firm to halt sliding sales and cut staff turnover.
   
   The system can achieve the latter effect by showing bosses that their
   staff is indeed working -- or has few customers to sell to -- and thus
   reduce unjustified management complaints.
   
   Tan has already sold at least 10 systems, which can also be fitted at
   homes for those who want to make sure the thousands of domestic maids
   employed in Singapore work hard on household chores while their
   employers are at the office.
   
   Costing about Singapore $3,500 (US$2,200) for a single camera starter
   system, Tan said he was running a special introductory offer for a
   free second camera for people who wanted to be in more than two places
   at once.
   
   "It's a helpful tool for people who want to stay in control," Tan
   said.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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   Previous Story: Crocodile attacks man, gets poked in the eyes
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    Questions or Comments






From landon at best.com  Fri Nov 21 18:06:20 1997
From: landon at best.com (landon dyer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:06:20 +0800
Subject: List still active???
In-Reply-To: <347f04dc.72285257@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971121174652.00a5a1c0@shell9.ba.best.com>



At 10:05 PM 11/21/97 GMT, you wrote:
>I know that the listserver at algebra.com is down.  Are the other servers
>still working?  Is anybody out there? 

  cyberpass.net is up

  algebra.com doesn't respond to pings, at least to me.  look at the
following tracert (forgive the line breaks):


----

% tracert algebra.com
  1    78 ms   140 ms    63 ms  pm07.san-jose.best.net [206.184.171.97]
  2    62 ms    78 ms    94 ms  core1-ether0-1.san-jose.best.net
[206.184.171.65]
  3     *       63 ms    78 ms  core1-hssi9-0-0.mv.best.net [206.86.228.117]
  4    63 ms    93 ms    79 ms  sl-gw2-sj-1-0.sprintlink.net [144.228.111.5]
  5    62 ms    94 ms    78 ms  144.232.88.1
  6    78 ms    94 ms   109 ms  sl-bb1-ana-6-1-0-T3.sprintlink.net
[144.232.8.6]
  7    94 ms    93 ms    94 ms  sl-bb3-ana-0-0-0-155M.sprintlink.net
[144.232.1.77]
  8    94 ms   125 ms   109 ms  sl-bb2-fw-1-0-0.sprintlink.net [144.232.8.49]
  9   110 ms   125 ms   125 ms  sl-gw8-fw-0-0.sprintlink.net [144.228.30.12]
 10   110 ms   140 ms   125 ms  sl-galaxys-1-0-T1.sprintlink.net
[144.228.132.14]
 11   110 ms   125 ms   172 ms  207.13.124.254
 12   297 ms   281 ms   266 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 13   282 ms   281 ms   297 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 14   407 ms   422 ms   563 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 15   579 ms   437 ms   500 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 16   593 ms   672 ms   703 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 17   657 ms   656 ms   719 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 18   782 ms   765 ms   797 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 19   750 ms   781 ms     *
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 20  1125 ms   875 ms  1016 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 21   984 ms   937 ms  1047 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 22  1015 ms  1094 ms  1188 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 23  1094 ms  1094 ms  1172 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 24  1281 ms  1375 ms  1250 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 25  1344 ms  1266 ms  1219 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 26  1406 ms  1422 ms  1375 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 27  1547 ms  1406 ms  1406 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 28  1563 ms  1609 ms  1688 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 29  1563 ms  1640 ms  1500 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 30  1672 ms  1672 ms  1844 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]


---

  either sprint or galstar has their act untogether


-landon






From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 18:07:14 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:07:14 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4972] ISBN and EAR
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b09b7a5c0bb4@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <3475F4C1.7FE9@dev.null>



Steve Schear wrote (without any carriage returns, forcing me to
do his goddamn editing for him):
 
> The Administration, through the EAR, has attempted to maintain 
the fiction that there is a qualitative difference between intellectual
works made tangible in paper and those in electronic form.  Can a 
Federal court's introduction of evidence procedure be used to establish
the interchageability of IP works in paper and elecronic form and if so
can these rules be applied to the EAR?

  Certainly, if a decent attorney is given sufficient financial 
incentive to pursue the matter.
  A lot of 'case law' is based on the bottomless pit of government
legal funding setting precedents in cases where short-funded defence
lawyers and defendants/plaintiffs cannot afford the time and expense
to adequately match the government's ante and/or raises in the legal
poker game.
  i.e. - the government agents 'buy the pot.' (no pun intended)

  Bad and marginal legal rulings accumulate to establish a base of
questionable legal precedent. When a legal concept is later challenged
in a case where the stakes are high, the defense/plaintiffs often have
the cards already stacked against them.
  i.e. - the odds are *always* with 'the house.'

> The ISBN system was established in 1968 as a standard for books and 
other monographic publications. Today, the scope of the system has 
expanded to include other media such as calendars, spoken word 
audiocassettes, videocassettes and electronic media.
> 
> Might this direction a legally fruitful way to overturn the EAR
  fiction?

  Certainly, as long as a challenge is not mounted by a terroist,
pedophile, drug-dealer, cryptographer, nigger, queer, or <shudder>
<barf> LIBERAL.

  Not that I'm getting cynical in my old age, but if one wants to
make a true difference in this regard they might consider foregoing
the usual legal challenges and punching out their spouse's lover
on the Jerry Springer show.
  Nixon was framed!

TruthMonger







From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Fri Nov 21 18:07:23 1997
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:07:23 +0800
Subject: Personal use crypto export
In-Reply-To: <34450E74.5C1@acm.org>
Message-ID: <654sfo$o2$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>



In article <v03007812b06adf711815@[163.176.132.90]>,
Lee Tien  <tien at well.com> wrote:
>I agree with Tim May, I believe it's no longer an issue.  While the current
>EAR/crypto regs don't expressly say "personal use OK," they can be read
>that way under several exemptions, and I'm reliably told that BXA does.

>(f) Special provisions: encryption software subject to EI controls.
>
>(1) Only a U.S. citizen or permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C.
>1101(a)(20) may export or reexport encryption items controlled for EI
>reasons under this License Exception.
>
>(2) The U.S. person or permanent resident must maintain effective control
>of the encryption items controlled for EI reasons.
>
>(3) The encryption items controlled for EI reasons may not be exported or
>reexported to Country Group E:2, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria.

So I can't take my laptop to Anguilla, right?  (I'm not a US citizen or
permanent resident; I'm pretty sure I don't fall under the TMP exception
either, but I haven't checked in a while.)

   - Ian






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov 21 18:08:48 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:08:48 +0800
Subject: State Department Advisory Group
Message-ID: <v0400270eb09b9c24e9fd@[139.167.130.248]>



I'm surprised they don't want a sperm sample, too.

Ooops. That's right. Sexism...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: aboss at vm.temple.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:15:31 -0500
Reply-To: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG at VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Sender: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG at VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
From: Amelia Boss <ABOSS at VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject:      State Department Advisory Group
To: DIGSIG at VM.TEMPLE.EDU

The meeting of the State Department Advisory Committee on Private
International Law Study Group on Electronic Commerce will be held from 10am
to 5pm Monday December 15 and 9am to 5pm on Tuesday December 16 in
Washington DC.

The meeting will be held at the Department of State, Conference Room 1107.
Use the 21st and D Street entrance.

To expedite admission for those of you wishing to attend, please provide
your name, affiliation, address, telephone number, date of birth and social
security number by close of business, Wednesday, December 10.  Please provide
this information to the Office of the Legal Adviser (L/PIL), Department of
State, Suite 355 South Building, 2430 E Street NW, Washington DC
20037-2800, fax 202-776-8482, or by telephone 202-776-8420, attention
Rosalie Gonzales.

Hotel Accommodations:  There are two hotels that have agreed to offer, on a
space-available basis, rooms at the government rate ($108/single;
128/double).  However, you must advise the hotel when making arrangements
that you are a State Department invitee and that the government rate should
be applied.  They, in turn, will contact the L/PIL to verify
(authenticate?) that you are on the list of attendees, so please make sure
that you have followed the procedures in the previous paragraph.

The two hotels are the Windham Bristol Hotel at 2430 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
(walking distance to State and two blocks from Foggy Bottom metro)
[202-955-6400; fax 202-955-5765] and the State Plaza Hotel at 2117 E Street
NW (across from the State Department) [phone 202-861-8200; fax 202-659-8601].

Hope to see many of you there.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From eff at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 18:18:14 1997
From: eff at dev.null (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:18:14 +0800
Subject: Factoring a 2048 bit key
In-Reply-To: <4a1a277e757631dec78e33b98a7bdfcb@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3475F6BE.7C04@dev.null>



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> I factored a 2048 bit key and all I got was
> Jerry Springers' "Too Hot for Television"
> videocassette and this bumber sticker,
> "I Brake For Illegal Immigrants"

I factored it and got:
> "I want to kill judges."
>
> - Tim May

Go figure...






From schear at lvdi.net  Fri Nov 21 18:25:32 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:25:32 +0800
Subject: ISBN and EAR
Message-ID: <v03102800b09b7a5c0bb4@[208.129.55.202]>



The Administration, through the EAR, has attempted to maintain the fiction that there is a qualitative difference between intellectual works made tangible in paper and those in electronic form.  Can a Federal court's introduction of evidence procedure be used to establish the interchageability of IP works in paper and elecronic form and if so can these rules be applied to the EAR?

The ISBN is an identification system for books and other media which allows for
order-processing by booksellers, libraries, universities, wholesalers and distributors. It identifies a title or edition of a title and is unique to that title or edition. The ISBN system was established in 1968 as a standard for books and other monographic publications. Today, the scope of the system has expanded to include other media such as calendars, spoken word audiocassettes, videocassettes and electronic media. 

Is anyone aware of a federal case, accepted into the SC, in which an work of intellectural property (esp. a book) admitted as evidence was referenced solely by its ISBN?

Might this direction a legally fruitful way to overturn the EAR fiction?

--Steve







From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Nov 21 18:32:32 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:32:32 +0800
Subject: Your Papers, Please
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>



 Network World, November 15, 1997:

 Welcome To Cyberspace. Your Papers Please? 

 About a year ago, the Treasury Department issued a little-noticed discussion 
 document entitled "Selected Tax Policy Implications of Global Electronic 
 Commerce" (www.ustreas.gov). Beavering away in obscurity, these unelected 
 technocrats have almost finished turning the broad "implications" into
detailed 
 regulations. Like most tax rulings, these regulations require no further 
 congressional action to have the force of law. So, while rehabilitated Clinton 
 apparatchik Ira Magaziner was out mesmerizing the digerati with his 
 "Framework for Global Electronic Commerce," promising free markets and no new 
 taxes, the green-eyeshade boys were quietly laying the groundwork to launch
the 
 IRS into cyberspace. ...

 The classic strategy of forcing reporting requirements on key "taxing
points," such
 as banks, clearinghouses and other financial institutions, is not likely to
work as
 the need for intermediation on the Internet will be vastly reduced. In many
ways,
 that's the whole point of electronic commerce. Any reporting burdens must be
 pushed out to the end points of each transaction. How will this be done?
This is
 where Big Brother may arrive big time. 

 Under active consideration is a plan to require taxpayers to obtain digital
IDs for all
 electronic transactions, keeping records that could be examined on audit.
The IDs
 would be issued by IRS certified agencies, subject to government developed
 standards to ensure that proper identity checks are performed before anyone is
 allowed to shop online. The IRS would enforce this by issuing its own digital
 certificates to issuers of digital IDs so that they can electronically
prove that they
 have received IRS certification. The technology they need to make this
happen is
 available. All that's missing are the regulations forcing compliance. So,
stay tuned.
 If you enjoyed the encryption key escrow debate, you'll love this one. 

 Bill Frezza

-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 18:32:49 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:32:49 +0800
Subject: READ THIS FIRST!
Message-ID: <199711211253.NAA08900@basement.replay.com>



 Besides the device, the box should contain:
   * Eight little rectangular snippets of paper that say "WARNING"
    * A plastic packet containing four 5/17 inch pilfer grommets and two
                club-ended 6/93 inch boxcar prawns.
 
 YOU WILL NEED TO SUPPLY: a matrix wrench and 60,000 feet of tram cable.
 
 IF ANYTHING IS DAMAGED OR MISSING: You IMMEDIATELY should turn to your
spouse and say: "Margaret, you know why this country can't make a car 
that can get all the way through the drive-through at Burger King 
without a major transmission overhaul?  Because nobody cares, that's 
why."
 
 WARNING: This is assuming your spouse's name is Margaret.
                 -- Dave Barry, "Read This First!"






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 18:38:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:38:14 +0800
Subject: following cypher algorithm ?
Message-ID: <199711210653.HAA04352@basement.replay.com>




Does anybody know following cypher algorithm ?

Symmetric cipher : BATON , JUNIPER 
Public key cipher : KEA , MAYFLY








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 18:38:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:38:14 +0800
Subject: Free start up kit
In-Reply-To: <34751053.15DD@iamerica.net>
Message-ID: <199711210747.IAA08443@basement.replay.com>




What's say we each send Robert "Mother Theresa" Lowery 10 copies of
our free Start-Up Kit. 



> 
> Please send me a free start up kit my name and address follows
> 
> Robert Lowery
> 1943 Hwy 472
> Winnfield, LA 71483	
> 
> My E-Mail address is tlowery at iamerica.net 
> 
> 
> Thank you  
> 
> 
>          Robert
> 






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 18:39:58 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:39:58 +0800
Subject: Factor a 2048-bit number
Message-ID: <199711210409.FAA19480@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Theodor Schlickmann and Peter Trei have expressed some skepticism
regarding the 2048-bit number which I believe can be factored.

I confess that I do not know the exact method required, but I am
pretty sure it exists.

Hint 1: The method will not work to factor 2048-bit numbers in the
general case.

Hint 2: There is an observation which suggests the number may be
factored.  A one word hint will reveal this observation.

(I want to hold off on Hint 3 for a little while in case somebody is
already working on the problem.  If anybody wants me to withhold Hint
3, please post a message to the list and I may do so.  It seems to me
that it will be more fun to solve without Hint 3.)

Wouldn't it be neat to actually factor a 2048-bit number which was the
product of two large primes?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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6S/oywGnKlWEU9xS9Yg8fnIDCWB1V6tTEW3PGJDp5fwi3x06i298eQ==
=sJgk
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From amp at pobox.com  Fri Nov 21 18:40:27 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:40:27 +0800
Subject: Did ANYONE get this number?
In-Reply-To: <34750bb5.1f64@aen.org>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.880092752.amp@rcnu3077>



Though it will probably be changed soon, this could be a useful number to 
have...

amp


Oops! President's fax line made public

Copyright (C) 1997 Nando.net
Copyright (C) 1997 The Associated Press 

WASHINGTON (November 20, 1997 5:06 p.m. EST) -- The House 
committee investigating campaign fund raising briefly posted
President Clinton's personal fax number on the Internet this 
week, despite a request that it keep the number private.

White House press secretary Mike McCurry called the incident 
"a procedural lapse" on the part of the House Government 
Reform and Oversight Committee chaired by Rep. Dan Burton, 
R-Ind.

A committee spokesman said the public posting of the number 
of the president's fax machine was a quickly corrected and 
"inadvertent" mistake with no malicious intent.

McCurry said the White House is concerned because the fax 
machine, located just outside the Oval Office, serves as 
the president's sounding board, a personal link to hundreds 
of friends and acquaintances around the country.

"It would be a source of concern to the White House because 
that's a very valuable way in which the president maintains 
contact with an incredibly diverse group of Americans," 
McCurry said.

"It's not the first time that they've had some procedural 
lapses," McCurry said of the Burton committee.

The incident was reported Thursday by Roll Call, a newspaper 
that covers Congress.

The committee obtained the fax number when it was mentioned 
by former Clinton political consultant Dick Morris during 
a deposition last August.

The committee failed to black it out when it posted the 
Morris deposition on the Internet Tuesday.

Will Dwyer, a spokesman for the committee said the number 
was available to the public for no more than an hour.

He contended committee lawyers had never definitively 
promised Morris to keep it private although Morris did 
ask that it and his private phone numbers not be disclosed. 
"I don't think we have breached any agreement," Dwyer said.

Dwyer took issue with McCurry's assertion that the incident 
was one of a series of lapses on the committee's part. "He's 
making a mountain out of a molehill," he said. "As soon as 
we discovered it we corrected it. There was no intent for 
anything malicious to occur here."
*********************************************************
To post a message to AEN NEWS, address it to news at aen.org.


---------------End of Original Message-----------------

===
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 11/21/97
Time: 01:11:39
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

Have you seen  http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
===







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 18:40:42 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:40:42 +0800
Subject: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711210312.VAA06674@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711210554.GAA29265@basement.replay.com>



> try to make a model of a complex system, and push your models beyond design
> constraints, you are going to have some amount of difficulty.  Predicting
> weather a decade hence is about a tough as predicting the market over the
> same time period...

Or trying to predict the content of the Cypherpunks Mailing list!  








From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Nov 21 18:40:54 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:40:54 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <97Nov18.110340est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971121184226.326M-100000@shirley>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:

[...]

> Both are necessary for the electorate in a democracy, and our supreme
> court says we cannot teach virtue in public school, and the educators have
> stopped teaching reason.

You are argueing that the religions have a monopoly on virtue?

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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zzXUkJuABT2pqT1XGvmluW+V6UtiAP4Yp3TSYhjuvbUHLwtmA1Aw/Q4O8jbgKLp2
8zUJ0ysTcn8=
=OtJQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Nov 21 18:42:32 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:42:32 +0800
Subject: CNET Dispatch: Comdex wrap-up; Web cops (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711210743.BAA07782@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:14:58 -0800
> From: CNET Digital Dispatch <dispatch at CNET.com>
> Subject:      CNET Dispatch: Comdex wrap-up; Web cops

> CNET Digital Dispatch: Comdex wrap-up; Web cops
> November 20, 1997

> This week on CNET:
[deleted]
> 2. How cops fight online crime
[deleted]
> 10. "Your turn": revolution of the Net
[deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|







From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Nov 21 18:42:43 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:42:43 +0800
Subject: Algebra down?
Message-ID: <199711210135.TAA06345@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Been getting bounces from Algebra for the last few hours. Anyone know what's
up on that end?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From brian at smarter.than.nu  Fri Nov 21 18:42:49 1997
From: brian at smarter.than.nu (Brian W. Buchanan)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:42:49 +0800
Subject: What REALLY happened to Flight 800...
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120212821.4607A-100000@thought.calbbs.com>



>From comp.risks:
| An article `Windows added to cockpit choices' in Flight International, 5-11
| November 1997, p 25, explains that the US company Avidyne has certificated
| an avionics system based on Windows NT.  The hardware supplier is Electronic
| Designs, who has recently received approval from the FAA (approval for what
| is not specified). Avidyne is apparently working on Level-C approval, which 
| will allow use of its moving-map display for IFR navigation. One of the 
| benefits is said to be the wide range of interfaces available to other 
| devices. 

 
"Good afternoon, Microsoft technical support."

"This is TWA Flight 800.  Our avionics system just shit itself!  Something
about a segmentation violation in the hydrolics interface driver!"

"Hmm.  Did you try rebooting it?"

"Yes, several times!  Losing attitude control!"

"Hmm.  This may require a reinstall of the operating system then.  Please
hold for a moment while I connect you to one of our reinstallation support
technicians."

"No! Wait!  The center fuel tank's thermostat control dialog is full of
random garbage now!  *SCREAM* *BOOM*"


... And in today's news, despite a leaked report from the NTSB that it was
not "digital sabotage," but a critical bug in Microsoft Windows NT for
Avionics that was responsible for the crash of TWA Flight 800, President
Clinton has asked Congress to introduce legislation that would enable the
FBI to monitor so-called computer hackers more carefully through digital
wiretaps and mandatory key escrow, to "save the children from the
info-terrorists on the other side of the Bridge to the Twenty-First
Century."  Microsoft is not commenting at this time, but a source within
the company has informed us that a fix for the "center fuel tank bug" will
be included in NT for Avionics Service Pack 4, to be released in the first
quarter of 1998.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian at smarter.than.nu
"War is peace.  Freedom is slavery.  I'm from the government, and I'm here
 to help you."
No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 18:43:08 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:43:08 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711210502.GAA24021@basement.replay.com>




This comes the same day as a Wired News story
about detritus.net, an online gallery which
plans to host works of "appropriated," copyright-
infringing art. Better not take any digital
handouts at the gallery, or you're opt to join
them in the paddy wagons, too.

The assertion of "Intellectual property" = the control of human Mind.

Lock and load.


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:38:30 -0500
From: Carl Donath <ctdonath at RPA.NET>
Reply-To: Netly <NETLY-L at LISTSERV.PATHFINDER.COM>
To: NETLY-L at LISTSERV.PATHFINDER.COM
Subject: Re: Today's netly

Jonathan Peterson wrote:
>
> So assuming I have a copy of Director on a workstation at home and
> choose to install it on a laptop so I can work on the road I'm up for
> 5 years and $250,000?

Yep.

Welcome to the reality that an increasing number of reasonable citizens
face: do something normal, reasonable, even constitutionally protected,
and face years in prison and huge fines.










From jongalt at pinn.net  Fri Nov 21 18:44:09 1997
From: jongalt at pinn.net (Jon Galt)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:44:09 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711202253.RAA22495@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971120201749.29114E-100000@everest.pinn.net>




> >What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
> >contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
> >rent,  etc.

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
> is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
> boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
> this is called Treason.

After all it is *very* important to have the Federal Government defend 
boarders against exploitation by their landlords! :-)

Seriously though.  Getting all emotionally tied up in concepts like 
"defending the borders" and "forcing" citizens to "aid in this invasion" 
may sound good, but whose land is it anyway?  I don't own a single acre, 
not even a single square foot of land in the entire southwestern/western 
part of the North American continent.

What gives the hoodlums in Washington, D.C. the right to draw a line on a 
map and try to control people's travel across that line?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt at pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________






From jr at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 18:44:26 1997
From: jr at dev.null (Janet Reamhole)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:44:26 +0800
Subject: For Blanc's Eye's Only  (WAS: "I got there just in time...")
Message-ID: <34761E6C.7DCC@dev.null>



[A very revealing series of articles at:]
http://cnet.com/Content/Features/Dlife/Finest/

The next day the San Diego ISP was contacted by someone "who knew
the hacker had been in their system," says George Vinson, assistant
special agent in charge of the San Francisco office of the FBI. "He told
the ISP the hacker's handle, and said Smak had a lot of credit card
numbers for sale." 

That third party became the FBI's cooperating witness.

  Any bets that the 'cooperating witness' who showed up 'out of
the blue' was already a government instigator/snitch?

Sources close to the investigation say the hacker used PGP, or
Pretty Good Privacy, a powerful encryption tool available as freeware on
the Internet and in commercial retail versions, to encrypt his
communications. Although encryption often makes the FBI's job even
tougher, in this case, Smak's use of encryption created an opportunity
for
the FBI to gain greater control over the sting. 

  Bullshit. Any government agency who is able to access a user's
computer via search warrant/surrepticious entry/cooperating 
accomplice, can compromise the target's encryption 99.9% of the
time.
  Has the government ever provided a *single*instance* where
inability to access encrypted files impeded a prosecution?
The ratfuckers just want to 'Go Fish' through our private lives
at will, and then go get legal authorization to pretend to
newly discover their illegally acquired information.

Unlike hackers whose main goal is to brag about their technological
prowess, Smak was selling a huge volume of credit card numbers to
criminals. 

  Right...
  It this was the Truth (TM) as opposed to horseshit, the public
would be privy to all the details of the horrendous range of his
crimes, in order to bolster the government's agenda.
  "The encryption-using hacker also murdered fifty world leaders,
but we have no information available on the details at this time.
and never will."

>From May 2, 1997, until the dramatic meeting at the airport three weeks
later, Smak and the confidential witness exchanged more than 50 email
messages.

  Let's see. The government allowed Smak to sell "a huge volume 
of credit card numbers to criminals" for three weeks--for what
purpose?
  To build a case for conviction? When they already had a 
"confidential witness" who had knowledge of Smak's crimes?
  Bullshit. The government agents needed three weeks to 
encourage and abet Smak in becoming a criminal and committing
crimes as a result of government influence.

Unbeknownst to Smak, his messages to the witness were
received at a computer controlled by the FBI, and recorded and
maintained as evidence. "Only the FBI could access the email encrypted
by Smak," says Agent Dalrymple. The cooperating witness "didn't have
the password or the ability to access the information." 

  Barf City! Give a retarded kid access to someone's computer
and they can bust it wide open in a matter of hours.

Controlling the encryption key and the password gave the FBI
confidence that it was building an airtight case. "That way we had clean
messages," says Dalrymple. "They couldn't be adulterated in any way. By
law we can prove they were his messages." 

  If the law *required* the FBI to prove that the messages *could*
have been adulterated, and that they *weren't* Smak's messages, in
order to convict him, they would have called cypherpunks, hackers
and phreaks to 'prove' it to be so.

Visa USA's fraud control team, which worked with the FBI on the
investigation, said Salgado had compromised 86,326 credit card
accounts affecting 1,214 different financial institutions. 
The potential loss: as much as $1 billion.

  Right. Bigger than the S&L crisis.
  "In addition, he was in possession of a single joint of
marihuana, which has a street-value of $2 billion on the
planet Venus."

The case also sends an important message to companies that get 
hacked: they can cooperate in an investigation without revealing 
their vulnerability.
"These guys pulled off a major case without compromising the names of
the victim companies," Vinson notes proudly. 

  Uuhhhh. These ratfuckers allowed and encouraged Smak, for a
period of at least three weeks, to "compromise" the credit cards
of more and more people, so that they could build a major bust.
Yet, since they protected the financial institutions from having
the truth exposed about their inability to protect the privacy
and security of their customers, the FBI ratfuckers are busting
their buttons with pride.

  I once saw a news interview with the boyfriend of a woman 
who had been stabbed in the face with a screwdriver in an
attempted rape:
  "When I arrived, he had already stabbed her in the face
several times with the screwdriver, but he hadn't raped her,
yet. I got there just in time..."
  NEWS FLASH!!! - You got there a little bit late, pal.
You got there a little late...


  I could catch those guys flying planeloads containing tons
of drugs into the country, if only I was allowed to invade
the privacy of everyone in the world and hold lighted cigarettes
against the skin of their newborn children.

  I strangled Vincent Foster, but he didn't exhale...

TruthMonger






From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 18:44:30 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:44:30 +0800
Subject: Despite the efforts of the CDT to work out a compromise...
Message-ID: <34762A0F.1A6E@dev.null>



* On August 7, police in Delaware, Ohio, and Thibodaux, La.,
reported that alleged child molesters had received private justice. 
According to police in Ohio, the wife and mother-in-law of
Rodney Hosler, 27, kidnapped him shortly after he was released
from prison on child-molesting charges, tied him up, shaved his
body, applied hot ointment to his genitals, inserted a cucumber
into his body, scribbled "I am a child molester" on him, and
dumped him naked in front of a pizza parlor in his home town,
70 miles away.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)







From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Nov 21 18:45:29 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:45:29 +0800
Subject: You're Fired!
Message-ID: <3475141D.2713@sk.sympatico.ca>



Igor,
  Just kidding. Say hi to Jim Bell and Tim May for me.
(Tell the rest of the CypherPunks I'll be joining UHAUL after my
 extradition hearing.)
{WARNING!!! -- If John Gilmore drops the soap...IT'S NO ACCIDENT!}

Toto
~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Nov 21 18:45:39 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:45:39 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971120201749.29114E-100000@everest.pinn.net>
Message-ID: <NV2Hge33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Jon Galt <jongalt at pinn.net> writes:
> What gives the hoodlums in Washington, D.C. the right to draw a line on a
> map and try to control people's travel across that line?

Nothing. Timmy C[...] May has exposed himself once again as a statist scum no
different from the reputed Jap pedophile Hirochi "no crypto for the four
politically incorrect horsepersons" Ito, geodesic baron Hettiga and the
jackbooted Nazi KKKent KKKrispin[1]. National borders are an artifact of a
state and must be destroyed together with the state. What makes Timmy any more
"legal" in California than some poor slob who was born a few hundred miles
south? People should be free to live where they want to / can afford to.

[1] Sandia means watermelon in Spanish.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Fri Nov 21 18:46:50 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:46:50 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: </ExNHxdX+kw2EXoXkBNHZw==@bureau42.ml.org>



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 at 11:27:12 -0500 Bob Hettinga had an epileptic
fit induced by excessive pressure in his swollen head and vomited
forth:

> Tim can make it as "repeatedly clear" as he wants after 
> the fact. However, he has, on several occasions, made 
> threats against people with more guns than he has, and, 
> sooner or later, they're gonna

Aw, bullshit, Bob! You were wrong when you started this fuckfest
and you're digging yourself deeper and deeper with every post.
There was a time when I thought you had a brain and a modicum of
common sense, but you've thoroughly disabused me of that fantasy.
I once visited your website and thought, "This guy is cool!"
Geez, I'm embarrassed to admit that now.

You've taken Tim's comments out of context and done yeoman work
for the enemy. If (or when) they ever find an excuse to bother
him, they won't be showing _his_ posts to the jury -- they'll
be showing _yours_, you clueless fuckwit. 

This is the age of "social convictions," in case you haven't 
noticed because you've been living in an e-cave. They don't 
prove cases anymore; they show that you're a "bad actor." 
It's all done with PR, whether totally in the press or partly 
in a courtroom. The first piece of paper the feds send out 
when they attack someone is a press release. The victim often 
first learns he's in trouble when the reporters call.

> ...lucidity, but who has gotten increasingly radicalized 
> and militant at exactly the same time the world is figuring 
> out that his earlier...

Maybe you're too young, child. The world is not figuring things
out fast enough or on a large enough scale to offset the
accelerating advance of the state. Tim has been around long
enough to have figured out that the statists have pissed away
his entire lifetime making him wait for things to get "figured
out." You have no respect for your elders, who have gotten 
bored over more things than you have yet learned. You should 
be spanked and made to sit in the corner until you can behave.

> It's almost as if Tim keeps trying to top himself, with 
> some newer and more grandiose claim about the impending 
> collapse of the world as we know it. It just ain't so. 
> The world don't work that way.

Tell that to the Athenians and hundreds if not thousands of 
groups since who have been surprised when their worlds 
collapsed. Tell that to the Austrians and Germans of the
1920's. Tell that to the piles of bones in Cambodia. You
suffer from the subjectivity of youth. You think that the
universe revolves around your time and space and that those
are unique in human experience. You're wrong. The times into
which we are headed have every promise of being the very most
"interesting" in human history. I for one won't feel a bit
compensated by your future whines that you "wuz wrong!"

If you had two brain cells to rub together you would have
taken your lumps in Tim's first brushoff and shut up. He's
got a right to his position and you haven't got shit. What
you will have is a place in someone's black book if it turns
out that your characterizations of Tim's posts ever turn out
to be fuel for the enemy's meatgrinder. Ignorance, even 
stupidity, are pardonable if not too tightly connected to
the motor mouth. You should consider that the damage you may
do could far exceed the value of whatever pride it is that
impels you to continue to articulate the government's ideal
(and fatuous) arguments in this matter.

> And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to 
> end on Thanksgiving Day, much less at the beginning of the 
> millennium.

Only a complete fool would be that sure.

> Armed storm troopers are probably *not* going to decend 
> on the denizens of this list and haul them off to newly 
> built gulags in the Rockies somewhere, or whatever the 
> current fantasy of the moment is.

Really, if you just stopped and thought about it a moment,
there are only a very few regular posters to the list. All
of them could be hauled off without making a ripple. We are 
meanwhile playing war footsie with Iraq after having spent
the better part of five years doing Clinton's best to 
disable, demoralize, cripple, and mismanage the military.
We're a few press conferences away from being in way over
our heads with a left-wing android in charge. Is this your
picture of stable times and a secure Constitution? Do you
seriously doubt that there are people in the Administration,
at least in the bureaucracy, who wouldn't like to be able to
make a few gratuitous PR linkages in a national emergency 
and have an excuse to get rid of the C-P annoyance once and 
for all? Did you miss entirely the personal destruction
wreaked on Jim Bell _without_ a national emergency? Would you
be utterly shocked to learn some day soon that you, too, have
ordered odd chemicals from someplace or other over the last
few years? Hey! It could _happen_!

> However, to say that they're coming to take us all away 
> on Thanksgiving, or anytime soon, is more than a little 
> paranoid, and,

No, Grasshopper, it is just a _little_ paranoid to suggest
that it might be a possibility. You're putting words in 
Tim's mouth again. You can probably assume that if Tim
were really convinced that that were going to happen, they
would find only an inflatable Tim sitting in front of a
'puter relaying email through an indirect dial link. Or
something like that. He's just concerned. I'm concerned. 
Anyone with a brain above room temperature is concerned.
Ugly things are in the wind.

> to attempt to force a confrontation in hopes of 
> preciptating a revolution, or even gratuitous publicity 

Why, Grasshopper! He's done no such thing and you well know it.
You are the one making such characterizations (as if any of
us needed that). Had I the time and the interest, I would
check what archives there are to see if you did the same
favor for Jim Bell.  Fuckwit!

Well, there's more, but your time's up. See you in the camps.

We Jurgar Din






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 18:47:43 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:47:43 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711202253.RAA22495@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711210059.BAA28202@basement.replay.com>




> >What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
> >contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
> >rent,  etc.
> 
> When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans coming across the border a year that
> is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
> borders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
> this is called Treason.

just out of curiosity, where do you get your numbers?







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 18:49:07 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:49:07 +0800
Subject: Does anybody know ?
Message-ID: <199711210813.JAA10351@basement.replay.com>




Does anybody know  hypo-cypher algorithm ?

Symmetric cipher : BATON , JUNIPER 
Public key cipher : KEA , MAYFLY

If anybody know it, Please tell it to me.
Thanks

 






From tlowery at iamerica.net  Fri Nov 21 18:51:45 1997
From: tlowery at iamerica.net (Theresa Lowery)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:51:45 +0800
Subject: Free start up kit
Message-ID: <34751053.15DD@iamerica.net>



Please send me a free start up kit my name and address follows

Robert Lowery
1943 Hwy 472
Winnfield, LA 71483	

My E-Mail address is tlowery at iamerica.net 


Thank you  


         Robert






From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Fri Nov 21 18:55:14 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:55:14 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711202253.RAA22495@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971120161706.23634P-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <3.0.2.32.19971120164135.035dba00 at panix.com>, on 11/20/97 
>    at 04:41 PM, Duncan Frissell <frissell at panix.com> said:
> 
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> >At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
> >>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
> >>Mexican colony. 
> 
> >Move North.
> 
> Hmmm just like the Indians should have moved West?
> 
> >What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
> >contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
> >rent,  etc.
> 
> When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
> is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
> boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
> this is called Treason.
> 

I feel your pain, William ;-)

I suggest we take this discussion towards a more constructive approach.

Lets just start a country in cypherspace.  I'll come up with a nice
serialized certificate of citizenship available in PDF format, suitable
for framing.  With your PDF cert comes a client-side certificate and
membership.  All this for only $1. 

Whats that I hear you say?

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"

And that's not all!

All you have to do is volunteer to spam the correct legislators
with pro-crypto lobbying.  Enlist to defend cypherspace.

Remember, enlistment guarantees citizenship!

(ahem...now back to your regularly scheduled silliness)

jim









From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Fri Nov 21 18:56:15 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:56:15 +0800
Subject: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <71108b2dd1a91d7515db8a0769fee984@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>                          The post-Yugoslav governments probably
>cooperated in creating hatreds and division to lock in their rule.
>
>This can be hard to study because usually we don't have access to the
>people doing this, their files, or their communications.

Hmmmmmmmmm...

So whose files and communications do "we" have access to?  And who
is "we"?

Nerthus

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From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Fri Nov 21 18:59:36 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:59:36 +0800
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <LFPODLLJLKKMBAAA@mailexcite.com>



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=OdWo
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 19:03:29 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:03:29 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711210803.JAA09546@basement.replay.com>





F7
        







From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Fri Nov 21 19:12:35 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:12:35 +0800
Subject: SMTP forgeries
Message-ID: <199711201948.TAA01894@server.test.net>




What is the state of the art with SMTP mail forgeries?

It seems that the forwarding SMTP agent can determine the senders IP
address.

I am wondering if this could be prevented by using IP level spoofing
to put fake return IP address on the TCP/IP connection to the
receiving mail hubs SMTP port, in that the sender does not really need
the information the SMTP hup sends back.

This would then be a variant of the IP spoof attack.  What would be
needed would be a site which blindly accepted the one sided traffic
from the receiving SMTP hub where it thought it was replying to the
traffic.

eg. Sender says:

HELO nsa.gov
250 locahost Hello locahost [127.0.0.1], pleased to meet you

The sendmail seems to be trying to be clever doing a reverse name
lookup, and ignoring what you tell it on the HELO line.
The 250 reply is not required by the sender.

MAIL FROM: nobody at nsa.gov
250 nobody at nsa.gov... Sender ok

RCPT TO: joe at acme.com
250 joe at acme.com... Recipient ok

DATA
354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself
asdfasdfasdf






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov 21 19:13:40 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:13:40 +0800
Subject: Nobuki Nakatuji
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971120122115.006cef8c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v04002739b09a388e2d14@[139.167.130.248]>



At 7:21 am -0500 on 11/20/97, John Young wrote:


> To wit: "John Young," no other vapid pseudonym have ever been so
> often used to hide god's evilist holies.

You am what you is?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From declan at well.com  Fri Nov 21 19:14:04 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:14:04 +0800
Subject: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007821b09a14f0835e@[204.254.22.110]>




*********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1588,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
November 20, 1997

Copyrights and Wrongs
By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

     If you think nothing of trading copyrighted software with
your friends, think again. A new law passed by Congress
will make even casual copyright breach a crime punishable
by a fine of up to $250,000 and five years in a federal
prison.

     While you're cooling your heels in Club Fed, you'll
have plenty of time to consider your misdeeds -- which in
this case could have been making just three copies of Adobe
Photoshop (cost: $389). The legislation covers anyone who
copies compact discs, videocasettes or computer software
worth at least $1,000. The No Electronic Theft Act, which
President Clinton is expected to sign later this month,
will be the first law in the history of the U.S. to
imprison copiers looking to save (not make) a few bucks.

     The President's signature will come not a nanosecond
too soon for the software and recording industry lobbyists
who have demanded this legislation for years. "The function
of the criminal copyright law is to deter people from
commercial-scale piracy, just as it is to penalize those
who prosecutors take to court," says Mark Traphagen, vice
president of the Software Publishers Association, the
software industry's largest trade organization.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov 21 19:14:25 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:14:25 +0800
Subject: Call for Papers: The 3rd Mac Crypto/ internet commerce workshop
Message-ID: <v04002755b09a0c93cfb6@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:36:19 -0800
To: mac crypto list <mac-crypto at vmeng.com>
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie at vmeng.com>
Subject: Call for Papers: The 3rd Mac Crypto/ internet commerce workshop
Sender: <mac-crypto at vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Its that time again folks.

I am starting to put together the 3rd Mac Crypto/ internet commerce workshop.

The dates should  be around the last week of Jan 98, most likely at in
Apple, Cupertino, (unless something changes)  This year looks like it will
a really
hot ticket.

>>>>>>>>  I am looking for folks to talk, papers etc.. <<<<<<<<<

This years goals are to:

1) Provide a place for developers to learn how they can embed crypto
support into thier MacOS / Rhapsody products today.

2) Give developers a chance to show off some of the work that has been
done in the past year.

3) Plan what needs to be done and talk about product oppertunities.

4) Give the developers a chance to tell Apple and other vendors what
they want to see in the future.

to see what we have done the past two years,  please check out the webpage at
http://www.vmeng.com/mc/ . I should be posting a preliminary schedule,
formal announcements and registration  form shortly.




Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 3F903472C3AF622D5D918D9BD8B100090B3EF042

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.
	 Paul Revere - encryption 1775


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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 19:15:14 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:15:14 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4983] Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
In-Reply-To: <v04002704b09b99c65b9c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <34764B9C.DCC@dev.null>



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> --- begin forwarded text
> From: david friedman <ddfr at BEST.COM>
> Subject:      Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?

> I am getting ready to teach my seminar on Computers, Crime and Privacy
> again, and wondering if there is something new that I should substitute for
> _Building in Big Brother_. Are there any recent books that have a
> reasonably accessible treatment of encryption, the controversy over
> regulation, etc.? For that matter, are there any good recent books on
> computer crime?

There is a great new book just out, titled "Computers, Crime and 
Privacy" which is getting rave reviews.

It is a compendium of articles by Bruce Schneider, David Chaum, Philip
Zimmermann, Tim C. May, Dorothy Denning, Louis J. Freeh, Janet Reno
and Jim Bell.

To receive a special edition copy signed by all of the above authors,
send $29.95 to:
  Publisher,
  Electronic Forgery Foundation
  Electronic Fraud Department,
  PO BOX 281,
  Bienfait, Saskatchewan
    CANADA  S0C 0M0

(Please allow 20 years for delivery.)

"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn






From schear at lvdi.net  Fri Nov 21 19:15:34 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:15:34 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711190359.WAA10764@sulphur.osf.org>
Message-ID: <v03102805b09a12b18b3b@[208.129.55.202]>



At 10:59 PM -0500 11/18/1997, Rich Salz wrote:
>>How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
>>companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest
>>money into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
>>Europe? 
>
>We got an official legal opinion, which was that wholly-owned subsidiaries
>of US entities are subject to US regulations in this area.

Does that equally apply to foreign corporations owned partially or fully by U.S. citizens, as is the case I believe for C2's Anguillan corporation?

--Steve







From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Fri Nov 21 19:19:40 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:19:40 +0800
Subject: Alternative Apology
In-Reply-To: <199711220204.UAA07970@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <347647EA.13A8@algebra.com>



I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.

The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.

Igor







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 19:23:23 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:23:23 +0800
Subject: Factor a 2048-bit number
Message-ID: <199711220156.CAA13448@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Antonomasia wrote:
>The wording of the original challenge suggested there was a trick to
>this particular factorisation.

That is exactly right.  Hint 3 is more like an insight a puzzle solver
would have rather than that of a mathematician.  When you have this
insight you will know it.

If you want me to post Hint 3, just ask.  You'll have a good laugh if
you get it yourself, though.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From jongalt at pinn.net  Fri Nov 21 19:24:17 1997
From: jongalt at pinn.net (Jon Galt)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:24:17 +0800
Subject: Your Papers, Please
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971121214332.3343A-100000@everest.pinn.net>



On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:
> This is
>  where Big Brother may arrive big time. 
> 
>  Under active consideration is a plan to require taxpayers to obtain digital
> IDs for all
>  electronic transactions, keeping records that could be examined on audit.

And what if "taxpayers" simply don't keep these records?  There have been 
quite a few things government has tried to impose on the American people 
in the last two hundred years, and have just been laughed at.  For 
example during the civil war, I believe there was a tax "imposed" which 
many people simply ignored.

> The IDs
>  would be issued by IRS certified agencies, subject to government developed
>  standards to ensure that proper identity checks are performed before anyone is
>  allowed to shop online.

This is absurd.  They can't possibly control every single one of us.  

> The IRS would enforce this by issuing its own digital
>  certificates to issuers of digital IDs so that they can electronically
> prove that they
>  have received IRS certification.

And who would they prove it to?  The IRS would have to have enough 
bureaucrats to track us all down.  - Actually they could wage a war just 
like the one with the Income Tax now.  Prosecute high-profile cases and 
publicize the hell out of them if the IRS wins, issue a gag order if the 
IRS loses.

> The technology they need to make this
> happen is
>  available. All that's missing are the regulations forcing compliance.

Regulations do not *force* compliance.  Words on pieces of paper do not 
force anything on me.

Even laws against the worst thing humans could do to each other (murder) 
do not *force* compliance.  And such laws are the ones agreed to by most 
people.  If laws that have the absolute greatest support cannot prevent 
human actions, how can you think regulations with such broad opposition 
could possibly do so?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt at pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________






From nobody at neva.org  Fri Nov 21 19:26:04 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:26:04 +0800
Subject: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711201617.KAA11756@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and
>the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is
>the elimination of freedom and privacy.
>
>It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first
>become enslaved.

Those who wage war are rarely the slaves.  Those who die usually are.
The "cannon fodder" you mentioned.

Gives new meaning to to phrase "...give me liberty, or give me death."

Nerthus

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From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Nov 21 19:27:35 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:27:35 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199711202054.OAA05162@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:24:12 +0100 (MET)
> From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> Subject: Re: The Great Awakening (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> >No, "The Second Great Awakening" which happened to be followed by "The Third
> >Great Awakening".
> >
> >You didn't read the various posts that I sent out earlier on this did you...
> 
> Uh, Hello?  Your post entitled "1st Great Awakening" describes the exact
> same thing that I called simply, "The Great Awakening."  It was not, as you
> say above, the 2nd one.

They are they same if we ignore the fact that there is 50+ years between
the 1st (1700-1750) and the 2nd (1800-1850).
 
> I did read the various posts you sent.  I don't know who chose the names for
> the 2nd and 3rd "Great Awakenings", but they don't seem to have much to do
> with religious revivalism like your "1st Great Awakening" and what I (and
> the definitive Norton Anthology) refer to as simply "The Great Awakening."
> 
> Nerthus

Then you should go back and read them some more. In fact, if you still have
the originals they include in the header the URL where I got the data from.
Take the 10 minutes and go over and take a look at them. All three were
related to religous revivalism in one form or another. The 1st (which
itself some consider to be the second occurance of a previous movement
as indicated in the title) did not occur in the 1800's which was the
original precis that somebody threw out

I did some looking around as well and other then Norton, yourself, and
whoever it was that made the original claim all references I can find to
the Great Awakening refer to the 1700-1750 event(s) as the first one to
occur in the America's. If I can find my Norton Anthology I'll take a
look at it, though it is 15+ years old.

> >Subject: 1st Great Awakening
> [...]
> > X-within-URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/html/great_awakening.html

                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >    The Great Awakening (Second Turning, 1727-1746) began as a spiritual
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 21 19:27:40 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:27:40 +0800
Subject: internet access monitored and censored
Message-ID: <7906d6c3d9cddf319c89ab0f3fe2805d@anon.efga.org>




*** my email is david.f at mailexcite.com

Hi all
please help me, this is the problem
our network admin is monitoring our internet access for "bad sites" detection
he is also blocking many of these sites
he is also (again !) blocking ports 8000-9000 (for public http proxies) and 3128-3130 for public squid caches

what to do than ?
please if you know a public proxy accessible under a port not in the blocked range,
or if you know a proxy or a search engine with SSl enabled please email that to me

*** my email is david.f at mailexcite.com
*** really sorry for using a remailer, i cant access my mailexcite account cause he may sniff my password
*** but i'm sure of one thing, he is not subscribed to this list ;-)












From nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus  Fri Nov 21 19:28:58 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:28:58 +0800
Subject: The Great Awakening (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711202024.VAA26211@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>The effect/influence of SAD has been shown in the past to be much
>greater during high levels of El Nino activity.
>
>TAT#3207/coe


Jim Choate wrote:
>No, "The Second Great Awakening" which happened to be followed by "The Third
>Great Awakening".
>
>You didn't read the various posts that I sent out earlier on this did you...

Uh, Hello?  Your post entitled "1st Great Awakening" describes the exact
same thing that I called simply, "The Great Awakening."  It was not, as you
say above, the 2nd one.

I did read the various posts you sent.  I don't know who chose the names for
the 2nd and 3rd "Great Awakenings", but they don't seem to have much to do
with religious revivalism like your "1st Great Awakening" and what I (and
the definitive Norton Anthology) refer to as simply "The Great Awakening."

Nerthus

>From: Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
>Subject: 1st Great Awakening
[...]
> X-within-URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/html/great_awakening.html
>
>    The Great Awakening (Second Turning, 1727-1746) began as a spiritual
>    revival in the Connecticut Valley and reached an hysterical peak in
>    the northern colonies (in 1741) with the preachings of George
>    Whitefield and the tracts of Jonathan Edwards.  The enthusiasm split
>    towns and colonial assemblies, shattered the 'old light'
>    establishment, and pitted young believers in 'faith' against elder
>    defenders of 'works.'  After bursting polite conventions and lingering
>    Old World social barriers, the enthusiasm receded during King George�s
>    War.

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From nobody at neva.org  Fri Nov 21 19:29:36 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:29:36 +0800
Subject: Violence and Depravity
Message-ID: <199711201532.JAA17885@multi26.netcomi.com>





Monty Cantsin wrote:

>Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time, >money, and energy.

I disagree.

The US Goverment and the mainstream media were both guilty
of either ignorance or deliberate subreption during McVeigh's
trial.  As a military trained explosive demolition instructor,
I am compelled to concur with the absent testimony and published
findings of a certain three star, to wit: 
It ain't necessarily so.

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of explosives will tell you
that two tons of ammonium nitrate, sixty feet from the base
of a tall, reinforced concrete and steel building, will not do very much more than break lots of windows.  You see, ammonium nitrate is a low velocity explosive compound useful for moving dirt.  A brissance, or shattering effect, on steel and/or reinforced concrete requires an explosive compound with much greater explosive velocity.... C-4, several types of commercial
blasting gelatin, even TNT.  

If you observed the news footage of the Murray Federal Building after the blast, you may have noticed that the damage was configured in a semi-cylindrical fashion, rather than the conic section which would have resulted from a ground placed charge of sufficient strength.  You might also have wondered about the apparent lack of a crater at the site of the explosion...
(The crater was mysteriously relocated to the basement of the structure, probably by A Terrorist-Provocateur To Be Named Later...)

If you looked closely at the ruined building, you would have seen
evidence of brissance on alternating bearing members on each floor.
(I have photos of this)

Had detailed chemical analysis of the site been permitted, evidence of a very large and elaborate line or ring main constructed of detonation cord, of the RDX or PETN based military variety, likely, would have been found.

Consider that the placement of the array of charges necessary to 
simultaneously shatter several dozen large bearing members in the
building would have required several hours for a well trained
demolition team, not to mention unlimited access to the building after hours.

Seismographs recorded TWO impacts that day, several minutes apart.

Consider that if this action was meant to revenge or commemorate the Waco massacre, it achieved the opposite goal.  However, if this was the work of agents-provocateur, it worked beautifully.  Waco was downplayed in the face of 'the threat of domestic terrorism.'  The body count was higher, and this time it came from the 'self-styled militia.'
Also, if McVeigh really had followed the Turner Diaries recipe, he would have put his bomb somewhere useful.  The book details the use of a similar device to destroy a large government database, and the truck bomb is parked underneath it
in the basement parking structure, _not_ sixty feet away...

The reader's digest version:

1)  McVeigh's bomb, as it was and where it was, was a squirt of piss in a hurricane.

2)  A well financed team of demolition professionals did the job.

3)  The payoff from this "investment" was the impressive Anti-Terrorism bill, much political mileage for the agency "targeted" by the attack, and an option for more legislation in the crypto arena.

4)  In a perfect world, McVeigh would have been prosecuted for incompetence, and given a suspended sentence because he was, after all, merely an infantry sergeant, not a demolition pro.  In the same perfect world, Woodward and Bernstein types would follow up on stuff like this instead of gulping down regurgitated propaganda like so many infant birds.  Then perhaps the true terrorists would be punished, and the political agenda of their employers exposed.

5)  The convenient deaths of poor defenseless children(TM) contributed mostly to the policy goals of the jackbooted thugs, not to those of their detractors.

6)  McVeigh pulled an Oswald.  Quit crediting him with success.


A Noncom To Be Named Later








From nobody at neva.org  Fri Nov 21 19:29:48 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:29:48 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:Tim plans to kill a federal judge
Message-ID: <199711201535.JAA17972@multi26.netcomi.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

James Donald wrote:
>At 06:10 PM 11/14/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> By the way, the same can be said about the work of Heidegger, a thinker who
>> has had some influence on me. Whenever I cite anything Heidegger ever said,
>> I can count on some numbskull to parrot the "Heidegger was a Nazi" shtick.
>
>Probably because Heidegger *was* a Nazi, who pranced around in full drag 
>Nazi uniform and sent certain of his colleagues to the concentration camps.
>
>To very crudely oversimplify the relationship between Heideggers 
>philosophy and Nazism, it goes like this.
>
>No objective, only the intersubjective, therefore the community
>defines reality, therefore truth is merely relative to the community.
>
>Yeah, I know it is more complex than that, but it still boils down
>to debates being resolved by hanging people from the ceiling with 
>piano wire rather than by appeal to the external world.

You are doing something slightly different from people who respond to
a point with "Heideggar?  That Nazi!"

The people who do this are short circuiting the discussion instead of
showing how the point made is in error.  In a sense, they are not
discussing an idea, but the group affiliations of each speaker.

I find that the ideas are more interesting.

(Although, if one were interested in Heideggar, his biography would
probably be interesting, too.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From amp at pobox.com  Fri Nov 21 19:29:52 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:29:52 +0800
Subject: ECC Challenge
Message-ID: <Chameleon.880105199.amp@rcnu3077>



Hmmm... A cracking challenge that doesn't appear to be snake oil...

As reported in PCweek 

Found at http://www.certicom.com/challenge.htm

Certicom Packs more than a Decade of Research into its ECC Challenge 

Certicom has created and launched an ECC Challenge, giving
cryptographers and mathematicians who are new to the Elliptic Curve
Cryptosystem (ECC) the benefit of hands-on experience with elliptic curve
algebra. The Certicom ECC Challenge is the result of research and
development into ECC by Certicom's cryptographic experts. 

The Certicom ECC Challenge, posted at Certicom's web site, is expected to
draw participation from cryptographers and mathematicians around the
world, giving them the opportunity to work with elementary elliptic curve
algebraic problems and test their own knowledge against what are
internationally recognized to be difficult and infeasible problems. 

"We believe the Certicom ECC Challenge is a great way for those
cryptographers and mathematicians who are looking to expand their
knowledge of elliptic curve algebra to form a strong appreciation for the
security of ECC," said Dr. Scott A. Vanstone, Certicom's Chief
Cryptographer. 

Participants in the Certicom ECC Challenge must try to compute an ECC
private key at a particular key size, given the corresponding ECC public 
key and a set of parameters. As a lead-up to the Challenge, Certicom has
included a set of Exercise problems, the simplest of which should be solved
in a matter of hours following the Challenge's launch. 

Prizes will be awarded for the first correct answer to each of the 
Exercises. Mathematical software to facilitate cryptography-related 
computations and a copy of the Handbook of Applied Cryptography will be 
awarded for the 79 and 89-bit Exercises, and US$5,000 for the 97-bit 
Exercises. 

Prizes have also been set for both Level I and II Challenge problems,
including those which are considered infeasible based on current knowledge
and available computing capabilities. The highest prize is US$100,000 to
find a 359-bit ECC private key. The elliptic curves for the Level II
Challenges meet the stringent security requirements imposed by forthcoming
ANSI banking standards, specifically ANSI X9.62 and X9.63. 

Visit Certicom's web site for ongoing status report of the ECC Challenge. 

                   Go to the Certicom ECC Challenge 

                   For more information about ECC, check out Certicom's ECC 
Tutorials and
                   Whitepapers. 


===
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 11/21/97
Time: 04:36:03
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

Have you seen  http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
===







From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Nov 21 19:29:57 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:29:57 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>



Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office 
(1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing 
had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.

Other info:

Mail sent to Jim (not by me) since his request for books has 
been returned twice that I know about

Books sent to Kitsap County jail, where he was first incarcerated,
was returned marked "Not in Jail." 

After this an inquiry to the court was made about Jim's 
location (not by me) and it was learned that he had been
transferred to Federal Detention Center at SeaTac, WA.
A letter sent there recently was returned unopened, marked 
"Return to Writer."

The court docket today at 8:00PM does not list his relocation 
nor the new sentencing date. However, entries usually appear
a day or so after an action:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock3.htm

Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's
going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially
whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached.

Now, scuttlebutt: a person at a Seattle legal document service
told me today that another case is coming up similar to Jim's
that also alleges "intimidation of IRS officials." Whether that
relates to delays in Jim's case is a mystery inside an enigma.







From nobody at neva.org  Fri Nov 21 19:30:42 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:30:42 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <199711201532.JAA17853@multi26.netcomi.com>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody at replay.com> wrote:
>Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal,
>make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering
>their access to government services.  Anyone who has worked with
>these people knows that most of them work harder than native born
>Americans.
>
>Even aside from the strictly economic balance sheets, giving these
>people the opportunity to succeed in a free country is a significant
>moral benefit which must count in favor of free immigration.
>
>They also serve to make our country more multi-cultural, with greater
>awareness and appreciation of the value of alternate customs and
>lifestyles.  We develop "hybrid vigor", as our culture is cross
>fertilized by elements from all around the world.  The result is an
>incredibly dynamic and flexible culture, which is why the United
>States will continue to be a world leader for the next century.

These are all excellent points.

If people are successful in forming strong cross border relationships,
it may no longer be meaningful to describe one country or another as a
"world leader".

>Of course, this gift of diversity causes immigrants to be hated and
>feared by racists such as Tim May, who sees them only as targets to
>mock with threats of murder:
>
>> Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration
>> laws.  This is why the militias here in California have been forced
>> to deal with illegal immigrants in the only way left to
>> them. (There's a hunt in Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)

He may be a bastard, but he's *our* bastard! ;-)

Seriously, I think you are doing yourself a disservice to characterize
Tim May as a mere racist.  His views are obviously more complex and
interesting than that.  In this case, he is making a joke.  I think.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 21 19:33:34 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:33:34 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.971119065534.4102B-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971120013554.00692f74@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 07:39 AM 11/19/1997 -0600, Tim McVeigh wrote:
>Duncan Frissell wrote:
>> US out of the UN and UN out of the US.

Nah - somebody needs to stay and corrupt the UN :-)
	(As if George Bush hadn't demonstrated that it's
	clearly been bought, if not necessarily paid for...)

Besides, it's obvious that Bureaucrats are a different race,
superior to their subjects, and that the proposed UN document
is merely hate speech indicating their right to control
the inferior beings who don't have the decency to comply
with the needs of public order and public morals.
Putting the document on a European web site obviously violates
the laws it requires its fellow Burons to impose on their Peons,
but here in America we're still free to publish such tripe...
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From jongalt at pinn.net  Fri Nov 21 19:33:34 1997
From: jongalt at pinn.net (Jon Galt)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:33:34 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711200435.XAA12526@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971120091920.16807G-100000@everest.pinn.net>



> >Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is
> >a rather odd last name for an American Indian.
> 
William H. Geiger III:
> My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
> or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
> Mexican colony.

You are here, and they are not?  Then what's the problem?  I thought you 
had a problem with the fact that they ARE "here"!


> >I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole'
> >want to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
> >government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  
> 
William H. Geiger III:
> Personally I could care less what they do.

This is simply and obviously not the case.  You do care what they do.  If 
not, you wouldn't express such violent feelings towards them.



> >This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
> >it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
> >towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.
> 
William H. Geiger III:
> There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
> apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
> long as they are not doing it here.

By the way, what do you mean by "here"?

William H. Geiger III:
> The same goes for the Germans, French,
> Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 
> 
> I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
> comming over and doing it in mine.

Oh, now I understand.  You mentioned the southwest U.S.A. earlier.  
Obviously you have a house in the U.S.A. southwest, and some furners are 
on your property.  I suggest you contact your local police, or perhaps a 
private security firm would do a better job for you.

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt at pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Nov 21 19:33:36 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:33:36 +0800
Subject: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119194653.033a2098@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <48Vgge27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



"Robert A. Costner" <pooh at efga.org> writes:

>
> At 01:02 PM 11/19/97 -0500, Fisher Mark wrote:
> >* Many of us find being your own Certificate Authority makes for greater
> >security, as you never have to let your private keys out the door, but
> >only recently have the tools for creating and maintaining Certificate
> >Authorities and server certificates become really commercialized (i.e.
> >GUI front ends, available from Netscape and Microsoft, etc.)
>
> Can someone direct me where to get CA software to sign my own Stronghold key?

Try C2net's shysters?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From T.G.Griffiths at exeter.ac.uk  Fri Nov 21 19:33:38 1997
From: T.G.Griffiths at exeter.ac.uk (Tim Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:33:38 +0800
Subject: Scientology war update
Message-ID: <aca0fceb47%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>



Wired has a good article on how the war of words on alt.scientology.religion
has split over into dawn raids and hardware seizures:

http://www.wired.com/wired/3.12/features/alt.scientology.war.html

If this is what can be achieved, think what can happen when the
government _really_ puts its back it suppression. Time to PGP every
file I own...

Tim
-- 
Dr Tim Griffiths is in real life t.griffiths at ic.ac.uk
Vmail on (0)-1392-264197
Public key available - finger tim at tim01.ex.ac.uk

			- Nothing is trivial - 






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Nov 21 19:34:04 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:34:04 +0800
Subject: Nobuki Nakatuji
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971120122115.006cef8c@pop.pipeline.com>



Jonathan Wienke wrote:

>Due to his distinctive writing style, John Young should probably have
>his anonymous posts translated into English by Nobuki if he truly
>wishes to remain anonymous.

Good god, Jonathan, you trying to get the JY-box TWA 800ed on 
CIA-TV Barney? Send fee for using TM nym.

Spoofing persistent identities, writing style, secret thoughts and hidden
agendas are adult-nut-rated kid's stuff here, the weirdo pitches the 
easiest of all, especially the puretext missionary position in white socks 
style of blackhearts which ever vaunts itself best See Jane Read Spot.

Who do you think "John Young" is if not a machinic composite 
of all previous, current and conceivable and abortable of cpunks, and 
pseudo-cpunks, extra bile-sauced with apish objective journalism 
gone stale, foul, rancid and roadkill tastier, by all the crazed truly 
knowns and unknowns passing through claoked in incredibly ordinary, 
goofily Anglicized, hide-shame names of the world's English-imitating 
kill-native cultures. 

To wit: "John Young," no other vapid pseudonym have ever been so 
often used to hide god's evilist holies.

Except the other subscribers.







From declan at well.com  Fri Nov 21 19:34:09 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:34:09 +0800
Subject: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007824b09a15beb3e7@[204.254.22.110]>



Congress has voted to make not-for-profit copyright infringments a federal
felony, as I write in my article at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1588,00.html

A Federal court in _LaMacchia_ noted that: "Since 1897, when criminal
copyright infringement was first introduced into U.S. copyright law, the
concept differentiating criminal from civil copyright violations has been
that the infringement must be pursued for purposes of commercial
exploitation."

This now changes. For the first time in the history of the U.S., nonprofit
(noncommercial) copying is a crime.

When doing research for the story I stumbled across this quote, from the
Supreme Court in Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207 (1985):

	...Interference with copyright does not easily equate with
	theft, conversion or fraud. The Copyright Act even
	employs a separate term of art to define one who
	misappropriates a copyright: "Anyone who violates any
	of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner..." [...]
	The infringer invades a statutorily defined province
	guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not
	assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he
	wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may
	colloquially like infringement with some general notion
	of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly
	implicates a more complex set of property interests than
	does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion or fraud.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Nov 21 19:34:32 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:34:32 +0800
Subject: Rep. Smith on Lifting Crypto Export Ban
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971119174610.00d4dfb8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <8D9Fge25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



John Young <jya at pipeline.com> writes:
>
>                             HON. ADAM SMITH
>
>                              of washington
>
>                     in the house of representatives

Is this the same Smith who's been pushing the "anti-Zionist" amendment?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From vznuri at netcom.com  Fri Nov 21 19:37:31 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:37:31 +0800
Subject: police state rumors
Message-ID: <199711210248.SAA17206@netcom13.netcom.com>




------- Forwarded Message


>>The following is an UNCONFIRMED RUMOR. If you have any information
>>to confirm or deny these statements, please post and cc:
>>safety.security at cancomm.com. As always, please specify your sources as
>>precisely as possible. Thanks, Wes Thomas
>>
>>-- Forwarded --
>>
>>To all,
>>
>>This e-mail came to me by way of public user in a public library.  There
was
>>no use in replying to this party for he would probably not be the one to
>>receive my reply.  I cannot verify the facts as presented in this post,
but
>>I'm sending this out for comments.  Anyone with further information on
this
>>situation please forward it through your network and cc: me a copy at
>>safety.security at cancomm.com.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Al Colombo, Editor
>>Safety & Security Magazine
>>safety.security at cancomm.com
>>http://web.raex.com/~colombo/
>>
>>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:47:18 -0800
>>>From: *** Public PC User -- Library Documents <user@***.edu>
>>>Subject: military weapons issud to police depts.
>>>To: colombo
>>>
>>>I'm a former cop with 16 years of experience including intelligence,
>>>SWAT, tactical operations, criminal investigations.
>>>
>>>Police depts. are receiving free of charge from the Defense logistics
>>>Agency all kinds of military pattern small arms.  these include m-16's
>>>(full auto kind), ammo, and even bayonets.  Also included is webb gear,
>>>ammo pouches, ponchos, night vision devices and passive infra-red and
>>>thermal imaging night sights or night vision devices.
>>>
>>>Sources of mine in the State of WA., say that many PD's are now training
>>>in advanced small unit tactics involving MOUT scenarios at the Yakima
>>>Army Training Center.  MOUT deals with street fighting in an urban
>>>warfare context.
>>>
>>>In addition, automatic weapons instruction (small arms) is also given to
>>>these units at the training center and some units report Army
>>>instructors (mostly special forces types) are instructing them in long
>>>range snipe fire and concenalment mehtods, including reconnaisance and
>>>intelligence gathering in the field.
>>>
>>>Now here's the kicker.  The WA. State Criminal Justice Training
>>>Commision is allegedly (good source on this) considering expanding the
>>>police academy curriculum and training hours from the present 440 hrs.
>>>to twice that amount.  Civil unrest and street fighting tactics are to
>>>be included in the new blocs of instruction.  Additional emphasis on
>>>sniper and full auto weapons training and intelligence gathering
>>>missions, plus joint tactical doctrine in order to facilitate working
>>>with military units may also be included.  I hear other states are to
>>>join in with the same agenda to be implemented.
>>>
>>>Sources with WA. State Emergency Management Services report that the WA.
>>>State Patrol is now designated the LEAD co-ordinating agency for all
>>>WAs. State police operations in the event of an emergency and in
>>>co-ordinating these operations with elements of the National Guard and
>>>US regular Army!
>>
>>***********************************************************
>>EWAR-L Electronic Warfare Mailing List
>>To unsubscribe or subscribe: send a message to majordomo at sonic.net
>>with the following text: unsubscribe EWAR-L or subscribe EWAR-L.
>>To post messages, send to: <EWAR-L at sonic.net>. Previous posts:
>><http://www.sonic.net/~west/ewar/digest.htm>. EWAR Web site:
>><http://www.sonic.net/~west/ewar/ewar.htm>.
>>-Wes Thomas <west at sonic.net>, list owner
>>
>
>
>``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
>This Hyperborea message was transmitted by or redirected from:
>onelight at eznet.net
>...
>[*]^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^[*]
>|                    The Galactic Courier @ Hyperborea                    |
>|              Internet News Tabloid for the Galactic Guilder   |
>|                   Metaphysics & Mischief in Cyberspace                  |
>|                 ___"all the news that's fit to post!"___                |
>[*]_____________________________________________________________________[*]
>



- - --------------5E8B804B1B913D9C90795D2F--


- ------- End of Forwarded Message


------- End of Forwarded Message

--===========================_ _= 9575805(248)--






From jk at stallion.ee  Fri Nov 21 19:42:33 1997
From: jk at stallion.ee (Jyri Kaljundi)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:42:33 +0800
Subject: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711191809.KAA17981@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971120125743.25779B-100000@nebula>



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, sameer wrote:

> > Are you really sure that they bought it all? That would go against what
> 
> 	I am pretty sure that they have only a 10% stake in Elvis+.

Yes this is the case, Sun owns 10% of Elvis+ (a Russian company). Besides
that there is Russia Communications Research, Inc. (a California
corporation), which seems to be the sales part of Elvis+. Anyway the
question was about if an US company can invest in a crypto company, and
the answer was yes. Percentages are not so important. And sorry for saying
"Sun bought Elvis+".

Jyri Kaljundi
jk at stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Fri Nov 21 19:45:34 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:45:34 +0800
Subject: RESULT: comp.org.cauce passes 548:122
In-Reply-To: <slrn66v7m2.gk.ichudov@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199711211531.HAA11593@sirius.infonex.com>



devin at premier1.net (Devin Ganger) wrote:

> : If an address points back to a real address, then it's not *ANONYMOUS*,
> : though.
>  
> I think you're pushing an unrealistic and overlarge definition of
> anonymity here.
>  
> Anonymous simply means that I don't know the real identity of the person,
> and that I have no easy way of ascertaining that knowledge.  However, I
> can still deal with that anonymous persona *as* that anonymous persona.
>  
> Two-way anonymous remailers fit that description. 

So would a message through a TRUE anonymous remailer (not a nymserver) that 
was PGP-signed with the same key used for other posts.  In fact, it would 
provide a more reliable correspondence between the post and its anonymous 
author than relying on a mere From: address in the header.  Yet the 
proponents of the CAUCE proposal insisted on a repliable (and mailbombable, 
spammable, etc.) address.  Why?
 
> What you and others are talking about when you discuss anonymity is
> something far beyond that -- you're talking about a complete
> disassociation between the speakers and their words (or posts).  Whether
> one calls that "privacy" or "irresponsibility" is a flamewar of a
> different color, and totally beside the point.  It is a concept that
> certainly *contains* anonymity as a necessary pre-condition, but it goes
> far beyond the bounds of anonymity.

"Anononymous but traceable" is an oxymoron that necessarily depends on 
trusting a person who "holds the secrets".  The security of the 
anon.penet.fi remailer, for example, depended upon the ability of its 
operator to defend the security of its database against attacks from 
powerful, censorious elements such as the "Church" of $cientology.  
Ultimately, it was unable to do so and chose to shut down rather to 
incur expensive litigation in defense of the privacy of its clients.

Not trusting such traceable schemes to protect one's privacy does not
"go far beyond the bounds of anonymity".  Calling any such scheme true
anonymity is nothing but SNAKE OIL.  The "fortress 'nym server" in which the
operator is not only personally trustworthy but also possesses the ability
to defend against any and all external attacks on the integrity of its
identifying database simply does not exist in the real world.

The fallacious assumption at work here seems to be that the validity of
an idea is somehow dependent on the identity of the messenger conveying
that idea.  Thus, the notion of "2+2=4" may not be valid if the identity
of the person stating it cannot be verified.  Personally, if I got a knock
on my door at 2 AM warning me that my house was on fire, I'd investigate
it, even I didn't know the person warning me.

> In this case, it seems that the *intent* behind the comp.org.cauce
> proposal was to allow anonymity in an environment that also allowed some
> level of accountability, which the total privacy thing necessarily
> lessens.  And, again, whether or not the means they chose to pursue that
> intent were duplicitous or not is a flamewar for other days and
> newsgroups.

The fact that identification through a unique, non-forgeable PGP signature
on each post was rejected but a repliable e-mail address was accepted as
that form of "accountability" casts doubt on the true motives behind this
requirement, though.

Real world experience on the internet should teach any objective observer
that a repliable e-mail address is no guarantee of "accountability".  The
presumption is apparently that any perceived misbehavior can be remedied
by either killfiling the person's e-mail address, or Net-copping the
individual and harassing his/her sysadmin into cancelling the account.
But how often have we seen Usenet spammers who can acquire new accounts
faster than the old ones can be killfiled or nuked?

--






From ichudov at algebra.com  Fri Nov 21 19:45:47 1997
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:45:47 +0800
Subject: Apology -- FBI abduction story
Message-ID: <199711220204.UAA07970@manifold.algebra.com>



I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list. I
was abducted by the FBI along with my computer. They are accusing me of
sponsoring seditious libel against the government. They let me go after
I explained them that the Cypherpunks Crack Force from the Mayonnaise
Mountain is ready to mount Million Man Assault against Washington, D.C.

Seriously, it happened because the DNS records for algebra.com got screwed
up. I am sorry. It is not going to happen again in the near future.

igor






From frissell at panix.com  Fri Nov 21 19:47:20 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:47:20 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971120164135.035dba00@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
>Mexican colony. 

Move North.

What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire, rent, 
etc.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNHSuioVO4r4sgSPhAQHaWgP/any2KLEnRZ7aaceAfSsqLqTij5mMtmRM
LmNmxnYY/FiDrXpuTSTaFz/pgLuuA99R2Vw21nsmt/uF/fymjl76G/dmgTnunRWn
oi00262h1rvUmd3LFUQrOXTYBOisKFMVL8l5LZY/pYzooV37O4UrjXoq6lTGBugX
QL14rFpaDvI=
=BQEO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Fri Nov 21 19:50:25 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:50:25 +0800
Subject: Factor a 2048-bit number
Message-ID: <199711211845.SAA02254@notatla.demon.co.uk>



Monty Cantsin

> Hint 2: There is an observation which suggests the number may be
> factored.  A one word hint will reveal this observation.

> (I want to hold off on Hint 3 for a little while in case somebody is
> already working on the problem.  If anybody wants me to withhold Hint
> 3, please post a message to the list and I may do so.  It seems to me
> that it will be more fun to solve without Hint 3.)

> Wouldn't it be neat to actually factor a 2048-bit number which was the
> product of two large primes?

The wording of the original challenge suggested there was a trick to
this particular factorisation.   My guess that q=p+2 was wrong, so
square rooting (cheap) and using the 2 nearest odd integers was a loser.


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From phelix at vallnet.com  Fri Nov 21 19:51:45 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:51:45 +0800
Subject: List still active???
Message-ID: <347f04dc.72285257@128.2.84.191>



I know that the listserver at algebra.com is down.  Are the other servers
still working?  Is anybody out there? 

-- Phelix






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 21 19:51:51 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:51:51 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <4a1a277e757631dec78e33b98a7bdfcb@anon.efga.org>



I factored a 2048 bit key and all I got was 
Jerry Springers' "Too Hot for Television"
videocassette and this bumber sticker,
"I Brake For Illegal Immigrants"

  -Joe7






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 19:51:59 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:51:59 +0800
Subject: [cpe:4985] State Department Advisory Group
Message-ID: <199711212203.XAA12360@basement.replay.com>



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> I'm surprised they don't want a sperm sample, too.
> --- begin forwarded text
> To expedite admission for those of you wishing to attend, please provide
> your name, affiliation, address, telephone number, date of birth and social
> security number by close of business, Wednesday, December 10.

Joe Smith, Joe Smith Organization, 123 Joe Smith drive, Smithville, JS,
(JOE) JOE-SMITH, JO/ES/MITH, JOE-SMITH-JS, <squirt-squirt>.






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 21 19:52:02 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:02 +0800
Subject: following cypher algorithm ?
In-Reply-To: <199711210653.HAA04352@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971121175104.0325e86c@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 07:53 AM 11/21/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>
>Does anybody know following cypher algorithm ?
>
>Symmetric cipher : BATON , JUNIPER 
>Public key cipher : KEA , MAYFLY

Nobuki Nakatuji should have his posts translated into English by John
Young if he truly wishes to remain anonymous.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA+AwUBNHY6hsJF0kXqpw3MEQI9jwCgnFtflJRXVaPZl7TIDvjWGOAPANMAl22x
mORvOhFRLHn3QJfcHuPylcM=
=AfOc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 19:52:06 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:06 +0800
Subject: Further Costs of War
Message-ID: <199711212302.AAA19454@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A few more comments on World War II.

Had World War II been prevented, along with deaths of 50 million or so
people, we would also have been spared (in the United States) income
tax withholding.  Previously the only people paying income tax were
fairly wealthy and there was no withholding.

I doubt very much that income tax withholding would have been accepted
if the War were not used to justify it.  ("You don't want to pay
taxes?  What are you, a traitor?")

Without income tax withholding, it would have been hard to get to the
point where we are now.  The U.S. Federal government consumes about
40% of the GDP.  When the resources aren't wasted outright, they are
used to perpetrate evil in the world.

To put this in perspective, multiply your income by 1.4.  For example,
if your income is $50,000, that would be another $20,000 you would
have every single year.  Where could you spend that money?

If you simply saved it at 3% a year, in 30 years you would have about
$950,000.  That's all for doing exactly what you do now.  Who needs
national health insurance?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNHX525aWtjSmRH/5AQF3TQf+LWjfFPOsg3oOk2B00v9gFCiQumz7ZELg
o+JFTi9sepLrhAnA7GdsnzPU2yPmJ5Q9w0j08AaBCEb29a7FNt/xX18V2XUGav9J
KWVK1CTDTLBeC1iX8rUhnqhidV/pIZjIg860LllEg7T8jdQfwaaz+EeoH/egod6f
C2Nd8D9wFlyGGxh992stC5/aicxTxwzVX9UgAox5iwdQIE0WEFRj+KAoBAfd+v6t
BQ0qhLVpHmGKRnLO4I2IYXBwzIvzRtOcYAGcy7A/k/XbVSvKs9I7vHMhJAFUDqWw
RECgxQKtKy1DK1S/xOed5oW/m52YvvIez2NDLsYoGAVeCuLNJja5Xw==
=xefg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov 21 19:52:10 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:10 +0800
Subject: Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
Message-ID: <v04002704b09b99c65b9c@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: ddfr at shell9.ba.best.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:39:58 -0800
Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From: david friedman <ddfr at BEST.COM>
Subject:      Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM

I am getting ready to teach my seminar on Computers, Crime and Privacy
again, and wondering if there is something new that I should substitute for
_Building in Big Brother_. Are there any recent books that have a
reasonably accessible treatment of encryption, the controversy over
regulation, etc.? For that matter, are there any good recent books on
computer crime?

I may end up simply substituting in a lot of URL's, but I thought it was
probably worth including some old technology as well, if available.

David Friedman
Professor of Law
Santa Clara University
ddfr at best.com
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From eff at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 19:52:13 1997
From: eff at dev.null (Electronic Forgery Foundation)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:13 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: [cpe:4980] Factoring a 2048 bit key]
Message-ID: <34760055.6252@dev.null>

Mr. Hettinga,
  The Electronic Forgery Foundation's legal counsel informs us that,
as hypocrites, we have a right to sue you for elevation of character
for forging posts in our name (even if we did it ourselves when we
were drunk and later forgot about it).
  If our legal counsel confirms this opinion once she sobers up, you
can expect to hear from us upon her graduation from law school. (She
is currently in Grade Six, so there is no rush for you to consult your
own attorney on this matter.)

Insincerely,
Jess Fission
Robert Hettinga Alternate Persona Appointee,
Electronic Forgery Foundation


Subject: [cpe:4980] Factoring a 2048 bit key
From: Robert Hettinga <eff at dev.null>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:01:50 -0600
Delivered-To: mailing list cypherpunks-e at htp.org
Mailing-List: contact cypherpunks-e-help at htp.org; run by ezmlm
Organization: "Electronic Forgery Foundation"
References: <4a1a277e757631dec78e33b98a7bdfcb at anon.efga.org>
Reply-To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Reply-To: eff at dev.null
Sender: cypherpunks-e-owner at htp.org
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com

Anonymous wrote:
> 
> I factored a 2048 bit key and all I got was
> Jerry Springers' "Too Hot for Television"
> videocassette and this bumber sticker,
> "I Brake For Illegal Immigrants"

I factored it and got:
> "I want to kill judges."
>
> - Tim May

Go figure...






From brian at smarter.than.nu  Fri Nov 21 19:52:18 1997
From: brian at smarter.than.nu (Brian W. Buchanan)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:18 +0800
Subject: What REALLY happened to Flight 800...
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971121151429.349B-100000@thought.calbbs.com>



Algebra.com is down, so I'm resending this through cyberpass.  Gotta love
distributed mailing lists.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:50:36 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian at smarter.than.nu>
To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
Subject: What REALLY happened to Flight 800...

>From comp.risks:
| An article `Windows added to cockpit choices' in Flight International, 5-11
| November 1997, p 25, explains that the US company Avidyne has certificated
| an avionics system based on Windows NT.  The hardware supplier is Electronic
| Designs, who has recently received approval from the FAA (approval for what
| is not specified). Avidyne is apparently working on Level-C approval, which 
| will allow use of its moving-map display for IFR navigation. One of the 
| benefits is said to be the wide range of interfaces available to other 
| devices. 

 
"Good afternoon, Microsoft technical support."

"This is TWA Flight 800.  Our avionics system just shit itself!  Something
about a segmentation violation in the hydrolics interface driver!"

"Hmm.  Did you try rebooting it?"

"Yes, several times!  Losing attitude control!"

"Hmm.  This may require a reinstall of the operating system then.  Please
hold for a moment while I connect you to one of our reinstallation support
technicians."

"No! Wait!  The center fuel tank's thermostat control dialog is full of
random garbage now!  *SCREAM* *BOOM*"


... And in today's news, despite a leaked report from the NTSB that it was
not "digital sabotage," but a critical bug in Microsoft Windows NT for
Avionics that was responsible for the crash of TWA Flight 800, President
Clinton has asked Congress to introduce legislation that would enable the
FBI to monitor so-called computer hackers more carefully through digital
wiretaps and mandatory key escrow, to "save the children from the
info-terrorists on the other side of the Bridge to the Twenty-First
Century."  Microsoft is not commenting at this time, but a source within
the company has informed us that a fix for the "center fuel tank bug" will
be included in NT for Avionics Service Pack 4, to be released in the first
quarter of 1998.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian at smarter.than.nu
"War is peace.  Freedom is slavery.  I'm from the government, and I'm here
 to help you."
No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov 21 19:52:24 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:24 +0800
Subject: HAYEKWEB: M Friedman Interview on Hayek & The Road to Serfdom
Message-ID: <v04002722b09ba006d369@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:17:30 -0500
Reply-To: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sender: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Greg Ransom <Gregransom at AOL.COM>
Subject:      HAYEKWEB: M Friedman Interview on Hayek & The Road to Serfdom
To: HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

>>  Hayek on the Web  <<

C-SPAN 'Booknotes' Interview with Milton Friedman
on Friedrich Hayek and his _The Road to Serfdom_.

On the Web at:

 http://www.c-span.org/mmedia/booknote/lambbook/transcripts/50060.htm

Excerpt:

"Booknotes Transcript

Author: Milton Friedman
Title: Introduction to F. A. Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom"
Air date: November 20, 1994

BRIAN LAMB: Dr. Milton Friedman, why did you choose or why did they ask
you to write the introduction to the F. A. Hayek "Road to Freedom" 50th
anniversary ...

MILTON FRIEDMAN: ""Road to Serfdom"."

LAMB: Yes, that's your title on your book. Why did you do it?

FRIEDMAN: The reason they asked me was very clear, because Hayek and I
had been associated for a very long time, in particular in an organization
called the
Montbelleron Society that he founded. The charter meeting was in 1947 in
Switzerland. Hans Morgenthau, who was a professor at the University of
Chicago when I was there, a political scientist, when I came back from the
meeting, he asked me where I had been, and I told him that I had been to a
meeting that had been called by Hayek to try to bring together the believers
in a
free, open society and enable them to have some interchange, one with
another.
He said, "Oh, a meeting of the veterans of the wars of the 19th century!" I
thought
that was a wonderful description of the Montpelleron Society.

Well, Hayek and I worked together in the Montpelleron Society and we were
fostering essentially the same set of ideas. His "Road to Serfdom" book, the
one
you have there, which was published 50 years ago, was really an amazing event
when it came out. It's very hard to remember now what the attitude was in
1944-45. Throughout the Western world, the movement was toward
centralization, planning, government control. That movement had started
already
before World War II. It started really with the Fabian Society back in the
late
19th century -- George Bernard Shaw, the Webbs and so on. But the war itself
and the fact that in war you do have to have an enormous amount of government
control greatly strengthened the idea that after the war what you needed was
to
have a rational, planned, organized, centralized society and that you had to
get rid
of the wastes of competition. That was the atmosphere.

Those of us who didn't agree believed in what we would call a liberal
society, a
free society -- 19th century liberalism. There were quite a number of us in
the
United States and in Britain, but in the rest of the world they were very
isolated,
indeed. Hayek's idea was to bring them together and enable them to get
comfort
and encouragement from one another without having to look around to see who
was trying to stab them in the back, which was the situation in their home
countries.

LAMB: The New York Times put on the Op-Ed page your introduction to this
edition. Do you know why they did that? What got their attention?

FRIEDMAN: I can't answer that. You'd have to ask the people at the New York
Times. On the whole, they have in the past not been very favorable to these
ideas
-- quite the contrary -- but they've been changing. About two or three years
ago,
they published -- they've turned down many an Op-Ed piece from me, which I
subsequently published in the Wall Street Journal or somewhere else. But a
couple of years ago, they did publish an Op-Ed piece from me about the
situation
after the fall of the Berlin Wall, in which my thesis was a very simple one.
Everybody agrees, as a result of the experience in the West, that socialism
has
been a failure. Everybody agrees that capitalism has been a success, that
wherever you have had an improvement in the conditions of the ordinary people
over any lengthy time, it's been in a capitalist society, and yet everybody
is
extending socialism.

After the fall of the Berlin Wall, there were no summits in Washington about
how
we cut down government. The lesson from the fall of the Berlin Wall was that
we
have too extensive a government and we ought to cut it down. Everybody
agrees,
but yet wherever you go, we have to extend socialism. The summit in
Washington
was about how you enable government to get more revenue in order for
government to be more important, which is exactly the opposite. So socialism
guides our behavior in strict contrast to what we believe to be the facts of
the
world.

LAMB: Let me ask you a little bit more about Friedrich Hayek. Who was he?

FRIEDMAN: Fritz Hayek was an economist. He was born in Vienna. He started
his professional career in Vienna. In the late 1920s, some people in Britain
at the
London School of Economics were very greatly impressed with the book he had
written and with the work he had done, and they invited him to come to the
London School. At a relatively young age, he became a professor at the London
School of Economics. He spent the 30s and most of the 40s there. Early in the
1950s, he left London and came to the University of Chicago where he was a
professor for about 10 years, and then he went back to Germany. He
essentially
retired to the University of Freiberg in Germany.

LAMB: How long has he been dead?

FRIEDMAN: He's been dead about two years now, I think. He lived to be 90,
and he has an enormous list of books and articles and so on he has published.
The "Road to Serfdom," the one we're showing here, was a sort of manifesto
and
a call to arms to prevent the accumulation of a totalitarian state. One of
the
interesting things about that book is whom it's dedicated to. It's dedicated
"to the
socialists of all parties," because the thesis of the book is that socialism
is paving
the way toward totalitarianism and that Socialist Russia, at the time, is not
different from Nazi Germany. Indeed, it was National Socialism -- that's
where
"nazi" comes from.

This was a kind of manifesto and had a very unexpected effect. It was turned
down by several publishers in the United States before the University of
Chicago
published it, and both in Britain and the United States, it created something
of a
sensation. It was a best-seller. The Reader's Digest published a condensation
of it
and distributed 600,000 copies. You had a big argument raising about people
who were damning it as reactionary against all the good things of the world
and
people who were praising it and showing what the real status was.

It's a book well worth reading by anybody because there's a very subtle
analysis
of why it is that well-meaning people who intend only to improve the lot of
their
fellows tend to favor courses of action which have exactly the opposite
effect. I
think from my point of view the most interesting chapter in that book is one
labeled "Why the Worst Get on Top." It's, in a way, another example of the
famous statement of Lord Acton that "power corrupts and absolute power
corrupts absolutely.""


Hayek on the Web is a regular feature of the Hayek-L list.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 21 19:54:14 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:54:14 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <27d58da7c4bee6ce203bf0ba25b3005a@anon.efga.org>



William H. Geiger III, well known Nativist (if not Native) American, writes:
> In <199711192035.VAA20768 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/19/97 
>    at 09:35 PM, Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> said:
> 
> >Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal,
> >make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering their
> >access to government services.
> 
> Yes and 4 out of 5 doctors in an independent study prefer Buffren. Would
> you care to back this up with some actual facts.

>From the Cato Institute, a well known libertarian think tank,
http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html:

> Myth number four: Immigrants impose a financial burden on
> taxpayers. Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare
> programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by
> immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security
> Income. But because immigrants tend to come to the United States during
> the start of their working years --between the ages of 18 and 35 --
> they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer
> programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions
> of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the
> foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of
> some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is
> a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility
> of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out.

More details can be found by searching for "immigration" on www.cato.org.






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 21 20:03:07 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:03:07 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808b09bf7e69f4f@[207.167.93.63]>



At 8:16 PM -0700 11/21/97, John Young wrote:
>Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
>I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office
>(1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing
>had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.

Thanks, John.

Hey, if they keep delaying his sentence, they can give him a longer
sentence than the  supposed crimes warrant....

The fucking criminal system is fucking criminal. Amerika.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 21 20:14:27 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:14:27 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: </ExNHxdX+kw2EXoXkBNHZw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03102809b09bf907e319@[207.167.93.63]>



At 10:10 PM -0700 11/20/97, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 at 11:27:12 -0500 Bob Hettinga had an epileptic
>fit induced by excessive pressure in his swollen head and vomited
>forth:

Yep. Or, as Bob likes to say:

"Well, spank me dry. I do feel like I've got a "kick me" sign on my back or
something.... Ding! You rang? Welcome to Random Acts of Kindness, Inc....I
do think my own powers of hucksterism are improving, though.... I just blew
Diet Coke out of my nose again."

>You've taken Tim's comments out of context and done yeoman work
>for the enemy. If (or when) they ever find an excuse to bother
>him, they won't be showing _his_ posts to the jury -- they'll
>be showing _yours_, you clueless fuckwit.

Yes. Bob claims to be an "ex-liberal," but he shows himself to be just
another bleeding heart, there-ought-to-be-a-law, simp wimp.


>If you had two brain cells to rub together you would have
>taken your lumps in Tim's first brushoff and shut up. He's
>got a right to his position and you haven't got shit. What

And, hackneyed though this may sound, I didn't even _start_ this thing! In
fact, the last few major "Bob vs. Tim" wars have been triggered solely by
Bob. He got overexercised that I didn't care to give a "keynote" at his Mac
Crypto cheerleading party, and wrote a vicious, over the top, rant that
even Lucky Green reacted to by saying "Get back on your Ritalin!"

This rant, called "Watching the MacRubble Bounce" (or somesuch) viciously
attacked me. And also one of his business associates, a thinly veiled
longtime Cypherpunk.

I mostly skip Hettinga's "e$-rants," as they are long on "creative writing"
chops, or so he thinks, and short on substance.


>No, Grasshopper, it is just a _little_ paranoid to suggest
>that it might be a possibility. You're putting words in
>Tim's mouth again. You can probably assume that if Tim
>were really convinced that that were going to happen, they
>would find only an inflatable Tim sitting in front of a
>'puter relaying email through an indirect dial link. Or
>something like that. He's just concerned. I'm concerned.
>Anyone with a brain above room temperature is concerned.
>Ugly things are in the wind.

Yep, again. Ugly things are in the wind. Hettinga can rant about his
"geodesic economies," but the clampdowns are continuing. Too many to list
here.

I am still hopeful, longterm, but we may have to go through some dark,
ugly, periods of war. And in this war, we know who the enemy is.

>
>> to attempt to force a confrontation in hopes of
>> preciptating a revolution, or even gratuitous publicity
>
>Why, Grasshopper! He's done no such thing and you well know it.
>You are the one making such characterizations (as if any of
>us needed that). Had I the time and the interest, I would
>check what archives there are to see if you did the same
>favor for Jim Bell.  Fuckwit!
>
>Well, there's more, but your time's up. See you in the camps.
>
>We Jurgar Din

Amen.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Nov 21 20:15:05 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:15:05 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <27d58da7c4bee6ce203bf0ba25b3005a@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711202158.QAA22009@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <27d58da7c4bee6ce203bf0ba25b3005a at anon.efga.org>, on 11/20/97 
   at 11:36 AM, Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> said:

>William H. Geiger III, well known Nativist (if not Native) American,
>writes: > In <199711192035.VAA20768 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/19/97  >   
>at 09:35 PM, Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> said:
>> 
>> >Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal,
>> >make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering their
>> >access to government services.
>> 
>> Yes and 4 out of 5 doctors in an independent study prefer Buffren. Would
>> you care to back this up with some actual facts.

>>From the Cato Institute, a well known libertarian think tank,
>http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html:

>> Myth number four: Immigrants impose a financial burden on
>> taxpayers. Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare
>> programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by
>> immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security
>> Income. But because immigrants tend to come to the United States during
>> the start of their working years --between the ages of 18 and 35 --
>> they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer
>> programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions
>> of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the
>> foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of
>> some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is
>> a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility
>> of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out.

>More details can be found by searching for "immigration" on www.cato.org.

You should have done your research better.

This report by the Cato Institute based on a report by the Urban Institute
is based on *Legal* Immigrants.

>Studies that report a decline in immigrant income and education levels
>often referred to as immigrant "quality" fail to take into account the
>fact that U.S. census data do not differentiate by immigration status.
>Legal immigrants, refugees and illegal immigrants are all included in
>U.S. censuses. But refugees and illegal immigrants have tended to be
>poorer and less educated on average than other immigrants. 

In after reviewing the some of the documents at the Urban Institute web
site http://www.urban.org I would hardly call them a libertarian
orginization. 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 21 20:23:00 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:23:00 +0800
Subject: Alternative Apology
Message-ID: <4c629215684c4169e873ce69a68c218d@anon.efga.org>



igor said:

>I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.
>The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.
>
>Igor

Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese.

doormouse








From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 20:44:55 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:44:55 +0800
Subject: [cpe:5028] police state rumors
In-Reply-To: <199711210248.SAA17206@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <34765CD4.5AA4@dev.null>



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> ------- Forwarded Message
> >>The following is an UNCONFIRMED RUMOR. If you have any information
> >>to confirm or deny these statements, please post and cc:
> >>safety.security at cancomm.com. As always, please specify your sources as
> >>precisely as possible. Thanks, Wes Thomas
> >>-- Forwarded --

> >>>Subject: military weapons issud to police depts.
> >>>To: colombo
> >>>
> >>>I'm a former cop with 16 years of experience including intelligence,
> >>>SWAT, tactical operations, criminal investigations.
> >>>
> >>>Police depts. are receiving free of charge from the Defense logistics
> >>>Agency all kinds of military pattern small arms.  these include m-16's
> >>>(full auto kind), ammo, and even bayonets.  Also included is webb gear,
> >>>ammo pouches, ponchos, night vision devices and passive infra-red and
> >>>thermal imaging night sights or night vision devices.

  If you consider the above to be "unconfirmed rumor," or difficult to 
verify, then you need to learn how to use an InterNet search engine.
  Even mainstream news articles have covered the transfer of Armed 
Forces weapons and munitions to civilian agencies, including a major
city which *returned* a load of bayonets as being too ludicrous to
accept.

> >>>Sources of mine in the State of WA., say that many PD's are now training
> >>>in advanced small unit tactics involving MOUT scenarios at the Yakima
> >>>Army Training Center.  MOUT deals with street fighting in an urban
> >>>warfare context.
...
> >>>Now here's the kicker.  The WA. State Criminal Justice Training
> >>>Commision is allegedly (good source on this) considering expanding the
> >>>police academy curriculum and training hours from the present 440 hrs.
> >>>to twice that amount.  Civil unrest and street fighting tactics are to
> >>>be included in the new blocs of instruction.  Additional emphasis on
> >>>sniper and full auto weapons training and intelligence gathering
> >>>missions, plus joint tactical doctrine in order to facilitate working
> >>>with military units may also be included.  I hear other states are to
> >>>join in with the same agenda to be implemented.

  This is supposed to be *news*?
  Have you been out of the country for a few decades? Ever heard of
CAMP (Campaign Against Marijuana Production)?
  I used to drink and get high with the CAMP crews in the heart of
the sickingly press-dubbed "Emerald Triangle." It was not considered
a 'state secret' that much of the purpose of this area of the War
on Drugs was to facilitate male-bonding and a spirit of cooperation
between federal, state and local law enfascistment agencies.
  The cammo-clad "volunteers" got to jump out of helicopters in the
middle of North-Western schoolyards armed with the latest in federal
weaponry and go play hardball with the children's hippie parents
who had a half-dozen pot plants up in the hills.

  The main purpose of the Campaign Against Marijuana Production
seemed to be to provide an opportunity for lower-level LEA agents
to get comfortable with the concept of shooting family dogs in
front of the citizen's children and confiscating TV's, chainsaws
and other personal possessions as "aids to illegal marijuana
production."

> >>>Sources with WA. State Emergency Management Services report that the WA.
> >>>State Patrol is now designated the LEAD co-ordinating agency for all
> >>>WAs. State police operations in the event of an emergency and in
> >>>co-ordinating these operations with elements of the National Guard and
> >>>US regular Army!

  Don't worry about it. They will undoubtedly only use a co-ordinated
front of assault teams against the 'bad' citizens, such as terrorists,
drug-dealers, pedophiles, tax-cheats, people who use insufficient
postage, left-handed people, and suspicious characters with last names
starting with the letters A through Z.

  In case you have trouble understanding what they are screaming, over
the sounds of your doors being kicked in and the roar of gunfire, it
is probably, "We're from the government, and we're here to *help* you!"

TruthMonger







From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 20:51:25 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:51:25 +0800
Subject: Award Announcement / Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: </ExNHxdX+kw2EXoXkBNHZw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <347650B4.5A12@dev.null>



This post gets 'One Dick Up' and the TruthMonger Barking Seal of 
Approval.
If Hettinga was Japanese, the author would be a racist!

We Jurgar Din wrote via the bureau42 Anonymous Remailer :
> 
> On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 at 11:27:12 -0500 Bob Hettinga had an epileptic
> fit induced by excessive pressure in his swollen head and vomited
> forth:
> 
> > Tim can make it as "repeatedly clear" as he wants after
> > the fact. However, he has, on several occasions, made
> > threats against people with more guns than he has, and,
> > sooner or later, they're gonna
> 
> Aw, bullshit, Bob! You were wrong when you started this fuckfest
> and you're digging yourself deeper and deeper with every post.
> There was a time when I thought you had a brain and a modicum of
> common sense, but you've thoroughly disabused me of that fantasy.
> I once visited your website and thought, "This guy is cool!"
> Geez, I'm embarrassed to admit that now.
> 
> You've taken Tim's comments out of context and done yeoman work
> for the enemy. If (or when) they ever find an excuse to bother
> him, they won't be showing _his_ posts to the jury -- they'll
> be showing _yours_, you clueless fuckwit.
> 
> This is the age of "social convictions," in case you haven't
> noticed because you've been living in an e-cave. They don't
> prove cases anymore; they show that you're a "bad actor."
> It's all done with PR, whether totally in the press or partly
> in a courtroom. The first piece of paper the feds send out
> when they attack someone is a press release. The victim often
> first learns he's in trouble when the reporters call.
> 
> > ...lucidity, but who has gotten increasingly radicalized
> > and militant at exactly the same time the world is figuring
> > out that his earlier...
> 
> Maybe you're too young, child. The world is not figuring things
> out fast enough or on a large enough scale to offset the
> accelerating advance of the state. Tim has been around long
> enough to have figured out that the statists have pissed away
> his entire lifetime making him wait for things to get "figured
> out." You have no respect for your elders, who have gotten
> bored over more things than you have yet learned. You should
> be spanked and made to sit in the corner until you can behave.
> 
> > It's almost as if Tim keeps trying to top himself, with
> > some newer and more grandiose claim about the impending
> > collapse of the world as we know it. It just ain't so.
> > The world don't work that way.
> 
> Tell that to the Athenians and hundreds if not thousands of
> groups since who have been surprised when their worlds
> collapsed. Tell that to the Austrians and Germans of the
> 1920's. Tell that to the piles of bones in Cambodia. You
> suffer from the subjectivity of youth. You think that the
> universe revolves around your time and space and that those
> are unique in human experience. You're wrong. The times into
> which we are headed have every promise of being the very most
> "interesting" in human history. I for one won't feel a bit
> compensated by your future whines that you "wuz wrong!"
> 
> If you had two brain cells to rub together you would have
> taken your lumps in Tim's first brushoff and shut up. He's
> got a right to his position and you haven't got shit. What
> you will have is a place in someone's black book if it turns
> out that your characterizations of Tim's posts ever turn out
> to be fuel for the enemy's meatgrinder. Ignorance, even
> stupidity, are pardonable if not too tightly connected to
> the motor mouth. You should consider that the damage you may
> do could far exceed the value of whatever pride it is that
> impels you to continue to articulate the government's ideal
> (and fatuous) arguments in this matter.
> 
> > And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to
> > end on Thanksgiving Day, much less at the beginning of the
> > millennium.
> 
> Only a complete fool would be that sure.
> 
> > Armed storm troopers are probably *not* going to decend
> > on the denizens of this list and haul them off to newly
> > built gulags in the Rockies somewhere, or whatever the
> > current fantasy of the moment is.
> 
> Really, if you just stopped and thought about it a moment,
> there are only a very few regular posters to the list. All
> of them could be hauled off without making a ripple. We are
> meanwhile playing war footsie with Iraq after having spent
> the better part of five years doing Clinton's best to
> disable, demoralize, cripple, and mismanage the military.
> We're a few press conferences away from being in way over
> our heads with a left-wing android in charge. Is this your
> picture of stable times and a secure Constitution? Do you
> seriously doubt that there are people in the Administration,
> at least in the bureaucracy, who wouldn't like to be able to
> make a few gratuitous PR linkages in a national emergency
> and have an excuse to get rid of the C-P annoyance once and
> for all? Did you miss entirely the personal destruction
> wreaked on Jim Bell _without_ a national emergency? Would you
> be utterly shocked to learn some day soon that you, too, have
> ordered odd chemicals from someplace or other over the last
> few years? Hey! It could _happen_!
> 
> > However, to say that they're coming to take us all away
> > on Thanksgiving, or anytime soon, is more than a little
> > paranoid, and,
> 
> No, Grasshopper, it is just a _little_ paranoid to suggest
> that it might be a possibility. You're putting words in
> Tim's mouth again. You can probably assume that if Tim
> were really convinced that that were going to happen, they
> would find only an inflatable Tim sitting in front of a
> 'puter relaying email through an indirect dial link. Or
> something like that. He's just concerned. I'm concerned.
> Anyone with a brain above room temperature is concerned.
> Ugly things are in the wind.
> 
> > to attempt to force a confrontation in hopes of
> > preciptating a revolution, or even gratuitous publicity
> 
> Why, Grasshopper! He's done no such thing and you well know it.
> You are the one making such characterizations (as if any of
> us needed that). Had I the time and the interest, I would
> check what archives there are to see if you did the same
> favor for Jim Bell.  Fuckwit!
> 
> Well, there's more, but your time's up. See you in the camps.
> 
> We Jurgar Din







From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 20:53:05 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:53:05 +0800
Subject: Personal to John Young
In-Reply-To: <NV2Hge33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3476528F.345A@dev.null>



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Jon Galt <jongalt at pinn.net> writes:
> > What gives the hoodlums in Washington, D.C. the right to draw a line on a
> > map and try to control people's travel across that line?
> 
> Nothing. Timmy C[...] May has exposed himself once again as a statist scum no
> different from the reputed Jap pedophile Hirochi "no crypto for the four
> politically incorrect horsepersons" Ito, geodesic baron Hettiga and the
> jackbooted Nazi KKKent KKKrispin[1]. National borders are an artifact of a
> state and must be destroyed together with the state. What makes Timmy any more
> "legal" in California than some poor slob who was born a few hundred miles
> south? People should be free to live where they want to / can afford to.
> 
> [1] Sandia means watermelon in Spanish.

John,
 Sure, you tell _me_ that you're out of drugs, and then you share with
Dimitri. Asshole.

Toto







From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Fri Nov 21 21:30:52 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:30:52 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <IICCMMMMBJBCCAAA@mailexcite.com>



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Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Fri Nov 21 21:33:01 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:33:01 +0800
Subject: Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
Message-ID: <199711220512.XAA12159@manifold.algebra.com>



reuters






          Florida State News

          Reuters
          20-NOV-97

          (TAMPA) -- Federal marshals and local deputies have shut down
          three Tampa area ``pirate'' radio stations, silencing unlicensed
          sources of rock music and far-right ideology. Authorities carted
          off broadcast and studio equipment from all three stations and
          dismantled a rooftop antenna that stood over one broadcaster's
          home. One of the stations was operated by 53-year-old Arthur
          Kobres, who is named in a 14- count indictment alleging
          violations of national broadcasting laws.  Authorities say
          Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government messages.

          Also silenced was ``Tampa's Party Pirate,'' a 100-watt F-M
          station run by Doug Brewer. A third operator who was shut
          down... 22-year-old Kelly Benjamin... was also arrested for
          possession of marijuana.






From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 21:34:13 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:34:13 +0800
Subject: A Challenge to the Violent and Depraved / Re: [cpe:5035] Violence and Depravity
In-Reply-To: <199711201532.JAA17885@multi26.netcomi.com>
Message-ID: <34766B3C.4E43@dev.null>



If you have not read the following post, do so.
It reflects the view of everyone I have spoken to who has even
the remotest knowledge of explosives and demolition.

Regardless, I am getting sick and tired of hearing the whining
'theories' of the 'experts' in regard to the OKC bombing.

A Challenge: If every naysayer/conspiracy theorist whose diatribes
  I have read (a small percentage of the total number) would kick
  in a couple of bucks, then there would be funds available to
  build a truck-bomb corresponding to the alleged OKC bomb, and
  to recreate the alleged crime with an abandoned building that
  can be found to provide a similar physical target.
  We're talking about a few grand, here. Put up or shut up. Anyone
  who cares to take on the challenge can cover that on T-shirt
  sales alone.
  If the re-enactment shows the truck bomb to have been a provably
  false scenario, it would be interesting to see a second display
  with BATF actors putting explosive charges in the middle of the
  building. (And then we can crash a Mercedes into the underground
  concrete pillars in Paris, to guage the results.)

TruthMonger

Neva Remailer wrote:
> Monty Cantsin wrote:
> >Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time,
> >money, and energy.
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> The US Goverment and the mainstream media were both guilty
> of either ignorance or deliberate subreption during McVeigh's
> trial.  As a military trained explosive demolition instructor,
> I am compelled to concur with the absent testimony and published
> findings of a certain three star, to wit:
> It ain't necessarily so.
> 
> Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of explosives will tell you
> that two tons of ammonium nitrate, sixty feet from the base
> of a tall, reinforced concrete and steel building, will not do 
> very much more than break lots of windows.  You see, ammonium 
> nitrate is a low velocity explosive compound useful for moving 
> dirt.  A brissance, or shattering effect, on steel and/or 
> reinforced concrete requires an explosive compound with much 
> greater explosive velocity.... C-4, several types of commercial
> blasting gelatin, even TNT.
> 
> If you observed the news footage of the Murray Federal Building 
> after the blast, you may have noticed that the damage was 
> configured in a semi-cylindrical fashion, rather than the conic 
> section which would have resulted from a ground placed charge of 
> sufficient strength.  You might also have wondered about the 
> apparent lack of a crater at the site of the explosion...
> (The crater was mysteriously relocated to the basement of the 
> structure, probably by A Terrorist-Provocateur To Be Named Later...)
> 
> If you looked closely at the ruined building, you would have seen
> evidence of brissance on alternating bearing members on each floor.
> (I have photos of this)
> 
> Had detailed chemical analysis of the site been permitted, evidence 
> of a very large and elaborate line or ring main constructed of 
> detonation cord, of the RDX or PETN based military variety, likely, 
> would have been found.
> 
> Consider that the placement of the array of charges necessary to
> simultaneously shatter several dozen large bearing members in the
> building would have required several hours for a well trained
> demolition team, not to mention unlimited access to the building 
> after hours.
> 
> Seismographs recorded TWO impacts that day, several minutes apart.
> 
> Consider that if this action was meant to revenge or commemorate the 
> Waco massacre, it achieved the opposite goal.  However, if this was 
> the work of agents-provocateur, it worked beautifully.  Waco was 
> downplayed in the face of 'the threat of domestic terrorism.'  The 
> body count was higher, and this time it came from the 'self-styled 
> militia.'
> Also, if McVeigh really had followed the Turner Diaries recipe, he 
> would have put his bomb somewhere useful.  The book details the use 
> of a similar device to destroy a large government database, and the 
> truck bomb is parked underneath it
> in the basement parking structure, _not_ sixty feet away...
> 
> The reader's digest version:
> 
> 1)  McVeigh's bomb, as it was and where it was, was a squirt of 
> piss in a hurricane.
> 
> 2)  A well financed team of demolition professionals did the job.
> 
> 3)  The payoff from this "investment" was the impressive Anti-Terrorism 
> bill, much political mileage for the agency "targeted" by the attack, 
> and an option for more legislation in the crypto arena.
> 
> 4)  In a perfect world, McVeigh would have been prosecuted for 
> incompetence, and given a suspended sentence because he was, after 
> all, merely an infantry sergeant, not a demolition pro.  In the 
> same perfect world, Woodward and Bernstein types would follow up 
> on stuff like this instead of gulping down regurgitated propaganda 
> like so many infant birds.  Then perhaps the true terrorists would 
> be punished, and the political agenda of their employers exposed.
> 
> 5)  The convenient deaths of poor defenseless children(TM) contributed 
> mostly to the policy goals of the jackbooted thugs, not to those of 
> their detractors.
> 
> 6)  McVeigh pulled an Oswald.  Quit crediting him with success.
> 
> A Noncom To Be Named Later







From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Fri Nov 21 21:34:32 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:34:32 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199711220508.XAA12104@manifold.algebra.com>



Looks like Jim has been sentenced to 10 years without the right
to correspondence.

To those who do not understand the cultural connotations of this 
phrase, I will explain. During Stalin's purges around 1937, a lot of
people were arrested and nothing could be found out about them -- 
not even when they were held. Their relatives were later notified that
the prisoners were sentenced to 10 years without the right to
correspondence.

That was an euphemism for being executed.

I would not be surprized if Jim committed a "suicide". With the advance
of modern psychology and psychotropic drugs, that could even be a true
suicide, done without physical assistance of Jim's captors.

Or Jim might suddenly die of "heart attack".

In fact, I am willing to bet 40 cents against a dollar that Jim will
notg et out of jail alive.

igor

John Young wrote:
> 
> 
> Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
> I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office 
> (1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing 
> had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.
> 
> Other info:
> 
> Mail sent to Jim (not by me) since his request for books has 
> been returned twice that I know about
> 
> Books sent to Kitsap County jail, where he was first incarcerated,
> was returned marked "Not in Jail." 
> 
> After this an inquiry to the court was made about Jim's 
> location (not by me) and it was learned that he had been
> transferred to Federal Detention Center at SeaTac, WA.
> A letter sent there recently was returned unopened, marked 
> "Return to Writer."
> 
> The court docket today at 8:00PM does not list his relocation 
> nor the new sentencing date. However, entries usually appear
> a day or so after an action:
> 
>    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock3.htm
> 
> Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's
> going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially
> whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached.
> 
> Now, scuttlebutt: a person at a Seattle legal document service
> told me today that another case is coming up similar to Jim's
> that also alleges "intimidation of IRS officials." Whether that
> relates to delays in Jim's case is a mystery inside an enigma.
> 
> 



	- Igor.






From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 21:45:32 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:45:32 +0800
Subject: internet access monitored and censored
In-Reply-To: <7906d6c3d9cddf319c89ab0f3fe2805d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <34766595.5B75@dev.null>



::
Anon-To: david.f at mailexcite.com

Anonymous wrote: 
> *** my email is david.f at mailexcite.com
> 
> Hi all
> please help me, this is the problem
> our network admin is monitoring our internet access for "bad sites" detection
> he is also blocking many of these sites
> he is also (again !) blocking ports 8000-9000 (for public http proxies) and 3128-3130 for public squid caches
> 
> i plan to send out a mountain of spam-baits using the network admin's
> return address as well as calling in bomb threats to my ISP's offices
> and possibly attacking the site physically
>
> please if you know a public proxy accessible under a port not in the blocked range,
> or if you know a proxy or a search engine with SSl enabled please email that to me
>
> *** really sorry for using a remailer, i cant access my mailexcite account cause he
> may sniff my password
> *** but i'm sure of one thing, he is not subscribed to this list ;-)
>
> i plan to make that asshole wish he was never born

David,
You should probably be using encryption to send messages of this sort.

TruthMonger (honest!)







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 21 21:52:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:52:05 +0800
Subject: The 4th Great Awakening
Message-ID: <199711220530.GAA05205@basement.replay.com>



Read "Speed" by William Burroughs.







From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 21:52:55 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:52:55 +0800
Subject: The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
Message-ID: <34766E12.4AF9@dev.null>



Is it a mere coincidence that algebra.com went down and proceeded to
send out all received messages in reverse order on the _same_day_
that the Seinfield TV show featured a reverse-order-plot show?

Picking up a little corporate spare-change, Igor?

JerryMonger







From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 21:53:13 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:53:13 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <199711220508.XAA12104@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <347671F0.6BCE@dev.null>



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Looks like Jim has been sentenced to 10 years without the right
> to correspondence.
> 
> To those who do not understand the cultural connotations of this
> phrase, I will explain. During Stalin's purges around 1937...

Fucking wonderful...
As Robert Heidegger explains to us that everything is 'roses, roses'
and that predictions of 'doom and gloom' are ludicrous, Igor begins
emerging as the Chief CypherPunks SpokesPerson, based on his knowledge
of the Stalin era and its accompanying atrocities.

I *love* this prison camp!

TruthMonger

> a lot of
> people were arrested and nothing could be found out about them --
> not even when they were held. Their relatives were later notified that
> the prisoners were sentenced to 10 years without the right to
> correspondence.
> 
> That was an euphemism for being executed.
> 
> I would not be surprized if Jim committed a "suicide". With the advance
> of modern psychology and psychotropic drugs, that could even be a true
> suicide, done without physical assistance of Jim's captors.
> 
> Or Jim might suddenly die of "heart attack".
> 
> In fact, I am willing to bet 40 cents against a dollar that Jim will
> notg et out of jail alive.
> 
> igor
> 
> John Young wrote:
> >
> >
> > Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
> > I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office
> > (1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing
> > had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.
> >
> > Other info:
> >
> > Mail sent to Jim (not by me) since his request for books has
> > been returned twice that I know about
> >
> > Books sent to Kitsap County jail, where he was first incarcerated,
> > was returned marked "Not in Jail."
> >
> > After this an inquiry to the court was made about Jim's
> > location (not by me) and it was learned that he had been
> > transferred to Federal Detention Center at SeaTac, WA.
> > A letter sent there recently was returned unopened, marked
> > "Return to Writer."
> >
> > The court docket today at 8:00PM does not list his relocation
> > nor the new sentencing date. However, entries usually appear
> > a day or so after an action:
> >
> >    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock3.htm
> >
> > Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's
> > going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially
> > whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached.
> >
> > Now, scuttlebutt: a person at a Seattle legal document service
> > told me today that another case is coming up similar to Jim's
> > that also alleges "intimidation of IRS officials." Whether that
> > relates to delays in Jim's case is a mystery inside an enigma.
> >
> >
> 
>         - Igor.






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Fri Nov 21 22:08:34 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:08:34 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971121220306.00a5e580@mail.io.com>



At 10:16 PM 11/21/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
>I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office 
>(1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing 
>had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.
>[...]
>Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's
>going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially
>whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached.

It strikes me as peculiar/unusual; perhaps there's a list subscriber with
more experience on the Federal criminal side to offer a different
perspective. The factor that strikes me as especially peculiar is that
there haven't been motions from either the defense or the prosecution in
support of these postponements; they've simply been entered as orders from
the court. (I haven't seen a docket entry for this latest postponement,
perhaps it's different.)

If the defense saw it as in their interests to delay sentencing, ordinarily
I'd expect to see a motion from the defense for each postponement, wherein
the defense would explain why they're not prepared to move forward.
Similarly, were the prosecution unprepared (perhaps the probation
department hasn't finished the presentence report), I'd expect to see a
motion to that effect .. and it'd be very unusual for either side to
succeed in gaining three postponements. Either side can probably expect one
as a matter of courtesy, perhaps a second if there's a really good reason
.. but three is unusual, especially without a motion & affidavit to explain
why.

I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be
testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and
that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the
defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's
seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in
the event of noncooperation. I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch"
without knowing more - and this is all speculation - but something looks
funny about what's happening thus far. (It's also possible that he's
physically/mentally incapacitated such that he's not able to participate in
his sentencing, which would explain why the court would be postponing on
its own initiative, and why the defense isn't opposing the continuance.)

I guess I don't really see a good (or uncomplicated) reason for these
postponements - if Jim were out of custody, it wouldn't be surprising for
him to attempt to drag the out-of-custody presentence period on for some
time. But when a defendant is in custody, they're likely to get more
immediate/focused attention from their attorney, and courts are less likely
to enter a continuance. The prosecution doesn't need to do a lot of extra
work to prepare for sentencing, and the probation department has had a lot
of time to work up the presentence report.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 21 22:25:09 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:25:09 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb09c1b3bec4b@[207.167.93.63]>



At 11:03 PM -0700 11/21/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be
>testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and
>that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the
>defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's
>seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in
>the event of noncooperation. I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch"

This is what I fear, too.

I now regret any "help" I provided him in adding crypto and digital cash to
his plans. (When I first came into contact with him, he had utterly zero
knowledge of how crypto worked, and how it could ultimately be used. His
"wonderful idea" was cheesy, built on nothing but hot air. But once certain
ideas were explained to him, his system became actually workable, albeit
not actually extant.)

I expect an arrest of several of us, on typically trumped-up RICO-type
charges.  Mere speech has become criminalized, through vague, speculative,
conspiracy charges.

Fuck them.  If it's war they want...

Lock and load,

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 21 22:34:56 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:34:56 +0800
Subject: [cpe:5043] Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
In-Reply-To: <199711220512.XAA12159@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <34767AFF.5D1C@dev.null>



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>           Reuters
>           20-NOV-97
> 
>           (TAMPA) -- Federal marshals and local deputies have shut down
>           three Tampa area ``pirate'' radio stations, silencing unlicensed
>           sources of rock music and far-right ideology. Authorities carted
>           off broadcast and studio equipment from all three stations and
>           dismantled a rooftop antenna that stood over one broadcaster's
>           home. One of the stations was operated by 53-year-old Arthur
>           Kobres, who is named in a 14- count indictment alleging
>           violations of national broadcasting laws.  Authorities say
>           Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government messages.

If you will check the archives (God, I've been waiting for a chance to
say that!), you will find that several weeks ago (years ago, in 'dog
weeks') I posted some rambling nonsense which pointed out recent court
rulings in regard to a Berkeley (?) judge upholding the right of local
freelance (?) stations to operate outside of the unconstitutional iron
hand of the FCC, and pointed out the potential importance of the judge's
ruling in regard to future legal issues surrounding the InterNet.

I also pointed out that the government would undoubtedly call and raise
this judicial ruling by launching a variety of attacks on other small,
local broadcasters in an attempt to provide a wide legal base of
precedent for deeming them 'pirate' broadcasters, thus negating the
effect of a single, unbought judge who accidentally came across some
literature describing the Constitution and realized that everything
her political Puppet Masters told her was wrong.

Cheap Self-Promotional Plug:
  I have recently opened a Psychic Hotline at 1-800-Tru-Mong, which
costs $.02/min, and I am getting filthy rich predicting the future.
  I channel Tim May in order to predict future events, and channel
Robert Hettinga, Kent Crispin and Phillip Hallam-Baker to predict
future government disinformation campaigns.
  I channel Sigmund Freud and Carl Lewis in order to keep one step
ahead of the guys with the butterfly-net.

TruthMonger
Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say CypherPunks used their equipment to broadcast
anti-government messages.
Authorities say CypherPunks used their equipment to broadcast
anti-government messages.
Authorities say Chudov used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Choates used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Cottrel used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Young used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say blanc used her equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say amp used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Schear used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Burnes used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Ito used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Vulis used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Wienke used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Galt used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
...
Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.






From emc at wire.insync.net  Fri Nov 21 22:48:09 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:48:09 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199711220640.AAA05293@wire.insync.net>



John Young wrote:

> Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
> I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office 
> (1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing 
> had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.

[snip]

> After this an inquiry to the court was made about Jim's 
> location (not by me) and it was learned that he had been
> transferred to Federal Detention Center at SeaTac, WA.
> A letter sent there recently was returned unopened, marked 
> "Return to Writer."

I would think that with all the recent publicity about the IRS abusing
citizens, limited only by the agency's creativity and its ability to
select citizen-units preceived as unable to fight back, that we should be
able to spin the Jim Bell case in a way which further damages the public
image of the IRS.

After all, the IRS is hardly the agency charged with discovering alleged
plots to overthrow the government, and the fabrication of such a plot in
order to harrass and imprison a tax protester would seem to constitute
antics similar to those disclosed in recent Congressional hearings. 

Of course, it would be difficult to wash away all the FUD the government
has disseminated about the Bell case by now.  Still, I think sloshing the
IRS with a bit of the excrement they have been dispensing to the press
might not be a bad move.  Perhaps a noisy statement about the Bell case at
one of those public meetings the IRS has been commanded to hold to discuss
its past abuses might be a good place to start.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From emc at wire.insync.net  Fri Nov 21 22:57:18 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:57:18 +0800
Subject: Scientology war update
In-Reply-To: <aca0fceb47%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <199711220650.AAA05318@wire.insync.net>




> Wired has a good article on how the war of words on
> alt.scientology.religion has split over into dawn raids and hardware
> seizures: 

There was a hilarious parody of Scientology on tonight's episode
of "Millenium."  A Cult named "Selfosophy," created by a really bad
writer named Onan Goopta, with a propensity to sue everyone, was
featured.  It had a large celebrity membership, and helped people
overcome negative thoughts with a device called an "Onan-o-Graph."

LOL!

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From phelix at vallnet.com  Fri Nov 21 23:22:50 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:22:50 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <348082ae.104506631@128.2.84.191>



On 22 Nov 1997 00:54:42 -0600, Eric Cordian <emc at wire.insync.net> wrote:

>Of course, it would be difficult to wash away all the FUD the government
>has disseminated about the Bell case by now.  Still, I think sloshing the
>IRS with a bit of the excrement they have been dispensing to the press
>might not be a bad move.  Perhaps a noisy statement about the Bell case at
>one of those public meetings the IRS has been commanded to hold to discuss
>its past abuses might be a good place to start.

Radio talk shows may be a better place to start.

-- Phelix






From roddaenterprises at email.msn.com  Sat Nov 22 15:43:03 1997
From: roddaenterprises at email.msn.com (roddaenterprises at email.msn.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:43:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secrets you should know
Message-ID: <0abe315491816b7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>


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From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov 22 00:28:21 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:28:21 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
Message-ID: <469bc1f7a895dececa160ee875981ca5@anon.efga.org>



Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> At 10:16 PM 11/21/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
> >Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
> >[...]
> >Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's
> >going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially
> >whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached.

> It strikes me as peculiar/unusual

Everything about Bell's case has been peculiar/unusual.
- posts sent to the cypherpunks list _before_ the bust quoting news
  reports which were dated the following day.
- thinly veiled threatening messages directed to Bell/cypherpunks
  posted to the list mere hours before the bust.
- follow-up posts and threatening private emails regarding Bell's 
  case sent to the list and individual cypherpunks from the 
  treasury email system.
- two prominent lawyers having their calls to Bell's legal aide
  attorney after expressing an interest to help in his case.
- the 'usual suspects' advising list members to 'be afraid,' to
  'chill out,' shut up and lay low.

[...] 
> I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be
> testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and
> that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the
> defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's
> seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in
> the event of noncooperation.

The events follow a classic pattern as described above.

> I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch"
> without knowing more - and this is all speculation - but something looks
> funny about what's happening thus far. (It's also possible that he's
> physically/mentally incapacitated such that he's not able to participate in
> his sentencing, which would explain why the court would be postponing on
> its own initiative, and why the defense isn't opposing the continuance.)

Incapacitation does not result in an information blackout surrounding
the dispensation of the case and a stonewalling of all attempts at
contact the defendant.

You can bet your sweet ass that Bell's volatile mental stability was
not lost on his captors, who would undoubtedly realize that it would
not take a great deal of prodding with the proper medications to put
him in the same frame of mind that allows police social workers to
convince small children that the mayor and the chief of police have
molested them in satanic rituals involving circus animals.
My guess is that he is currently ratting out each and every one of
us for imaginary crimes in return for LEA promises that Comet Hale-Bop
has been recalled in order to pick him up.

Be alarmed. Be very all-armed!

Loch N. Lode







From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sat Nov 22 05:13:50 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:13:50 +0800
Subject: good work
Message-ID: <199711221252.EAA16241@sirius.infonex.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bob, Tim. You guys are doing great. i
think that the enemy is confused into
thinking that we are feckless juveniles
who are at each other's throats and are
posing no real threat. excellent. this
should give us those precious few extra
weeks needed to complete Plan A. also:
perhaps you two should get together and
re-work your contingency confessions.
wouldn't want some of your accusations
against one another to accidentally be
true! (use Bob's "Toto" nym. be careful
not to accidentally Cc: the cypherpunks
list!)


white team leader


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Comment: x

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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov 22 06:12:48 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:12:48 +0800
Subject: [cpe:5043] Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711221411.IAA01646@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:26:07 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>
> Subject: Re: [cpe:5043] Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced

> Authorities say Choates used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.

It's 'Choate'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov 22 06:16:24 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:16:24 +0800
Subject: Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711221419.IAA01802@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:12:17 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

>           Florida State News
> 
>           Reuters
>           20-NOV-97
> 
>           (TAMPA) -- Federal marshals and local deputies have shut down
>           three Tampa area ``pirate'' radio stations, silencing unlicensed
>           sources of rock music and far-right ideology. Authorities carted

Anyone know of a pirate broadcast station where CDR traffic could be
re-broadcast? Filter the days traffic and use speech-synth to make it
compatible.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|







From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov 22 06:25:24 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:25:24 +0800
Subject: A Challenge to the Violent and Depraved / Re: [cpe:5035] Violence and Depravity (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711221416.IAA01754@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:18:52 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>
> Subject: A Challenge to the Violent and Depraved / Re: [cpe:5035] Violence and Depravity

> A Challenge: If every naysayer/conspiracy theorist whose diatribes
>   I have read (a small percentage of the total number) would kick
>   in a couple of bucks, then there would be funds available to
>   build a truck-bomb corresponding to the alleged OKC bomb, and
>   to recreate the alleged crime with an abandoned building that
>   can be found to provide a similar physical target.
>   We're talking about a few grand, here. Put up or shut up. Anyone
>   who cares to take on the challenge can cover that on T-shirt
>   sales alone.
>   If the re-enactment shows the truck bomb to have been a provably
>   false scenario, it would be interesting to see a second display
>   with BATF actors putting explosive charges in the middle of the
>   building. (And then we can crash a Mercedes into the underground
>   concrete pillars in Paris, to guage the results.)

Black Rock, Nevada would be a perfect place for the test. Many of the
high-performance and experimental rocketry groups I am involved in test
their birds there. 10 miles in pretty much any direction of nothing...

Also, why not simply begin to systematicaly approach each source of
materials and ask for donations for a single run test. I am shure there are
suppliers out there who would be sympathetic.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov 22 06:26:09 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:26:09 +0800
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Worldwide Caution (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711221421.IAA01851@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From owner-travel-advisories at stolaf.edu Sat Nov 22 03:18:55 1997
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:46:22 -0500
From: owner-travel-advisories <owner-travel-advisories at stolaf.edu>
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Worldwide Caution
Sender: Wally Doerge <76702.1202 at compuserve.com>
To: travel-advisories at stolaf.edu
Message-ID: <199711191249_MC2-28C9-9FC6 at compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Precedence: bulk

STATE DEPARTMENT TRAVEL INFORMATION - Worldwide Caution
============================================================
Worldwide Caution - Public Announcement
 November 19, 1997

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman


In light of events unfolding throughout the world, U.S. citizens 
traveling or residing abroad are advised to exercise greater than 
usual caution.  Recently there have been numerous incidents and 
developments that have the cumulative potential of impacting the 
security of U.S. citizens, businesses and military interests abroad, 
including the recent convictions of Mir Aimal Kasi and Ramzi Yousef, 
the murders of four businessmen in Karachi, Pakistan, the terrorist 
attack on tourists in Luxor, Egypt, and the general situation in the 
Middle East.

While at this time we know of no specific threats to U.S. citizens 
or interests overseas in relation to the above incidents, we cannot 
discount the possibility of random acts of anti-American violence, 
such as drive-by shootings, kidnappings, or bombings.  U.S. 
diplomatic posts worldwide are taking appropriate security 
precautions.  U.S. citizens planning to travel abroad should consult 
the Department of State's country-specific Public Announcements, 
Travel Warnings, Consular Information Sheets and regional travel 
brochures, and refer to the Department's advisories on security 
awareness overseas.  American citizens residing or traveling abroad 
are encouraged to contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate for 
up-to-date information on security conditions.

This Public Announcement expires December 18, 1997.

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
The "travel-advisories at stolaf.edu" mailing list is the official Internet and
BITNET distribution point for the U.S. State Department Travel Warnings and
Consular Information Sheets.  To unsubscribe, send a message containing the
word "unsubscribe" to:	travel-advisories-request at stolaf.edu

Archives of past "travel-advisories" postings are available at the URL:
"http://www.stolaf.edu/network/travel-advisories.html" or via Gopher:
gopher.stolaf.edu, Internet Resources/US-State-Department-Travel-Advisories






From bdolan at USIT.NET  Sat Nov 22 06:28:13 1997
From: bdolan at USIT.NET (Brad Dolan)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:28:13 +0800
Subject: Lewis & Clark liked dogs too [was Re: Alternative Apology]
In-Reply-To: <4c629215684c4169e873ce69a68c218d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971122091625.5768B-100000@use.usit.net>



According to _From Sea to Shining Sea_, by J. Thom, famous American
explorers William Clark and George Lewis provisioned their trip across the
continent with dog meat.  They even traded with the indians in the
northwest  for dogs so they wouldn't have to eat those yucky salmon.

bd

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> igor said:
> 
> >I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.
> >The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.
> >
> >Igor
> 
> Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese.
> 
> doormouse
> 
> 
> 
> 






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Sat Nov 22 06:28:24 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:28:24 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb09c1b3bec4b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711221419.IAA03664@manifold.algebra.com>



Tim May wrote:
> At 11:03 PM -0700 11/21/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be
> >testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and
> >that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the
> >defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's
> >seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in
> >the event of noncooperation. I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch"
> 
> This is what I fear, too.
> 
> I now regret any "help" I provided him in adding crypto and digital cash to
> his plans. (When I first came into contact with him, he had utterly zero
> knowledge of how crypto worked, and how it could ultimately be used. His
> "wonderful idea" was cheesy, built on nothing but hot air. But once certain
> ideas were explained to him, his system became actually workable, albeit
> not actually extant.)

I wish I provided Jim Bell with assistance. Jim Bell is cool.

Aside from all that, expecting a person NOT to break in the hands
of skilled mind-breakers is unreasonable.

90% of us would break. The worst thing to prisoners is hope.

	- Igor.






From amp at pobox.com  Sat Nov 22 06:59:31 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:59:31 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <199711220508.XAA12104@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.880205874.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>




so saith ichudov at algebra.com ...

> Looks like Jim has been sentenced to 10 years without the right
> to correspondence.
> 
> To those who do not understand the cultural connotations of this 
> phrase, I will explain. During Stalin's purges around 1937, a lot of
> people were arrested and nothing could be found out about them -- 
> not even when they were held. Their relatives were later notified that
> the prisoners were sentenced to 10 years without the right to
> correspondence.

the parallels between modern america and just about an other totalitarian 
regime to date are hitting frighteningly close to home. 

I remember when I was told about the horrors of the nazi and russian 
children turning their parents in for whatever the state considered to not 
be proper. now we have D.A.R.E. 

i doubt such things are mentioned in public schools anymore.

> 
> That was an euphemism for being executed.
> 
> I would not be surprized if Jim committed a "suicide". With the advance
> of modern psychology and psychotropic drugs, that could even be a true
> suicide, done without physical assistance of Jim's captors.

you mean he would be fosterized?


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 11/22/97
Time: 08:33:20
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Sat Nov 22 06:59:44 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:59:44 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.880205874.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <199711221444.IAA03943@manifold.algebra.com>



amp at pobox.com wrote:
> the parallels between modern america and just about an other totalitarian 
> regime to date are hitting frighteningly close to home. 
> 
> I remember when I was told about the horrors of the nazi and russian 
> children turning their parents in for whatever the state considered to not 
> be proper. now we have D.A.R.E. 

You know, I have been thinking about it for a long time.

My conclusion was that the government was not truly totalitarian in the
strict sense of this world.

It is the people's minds that turn more and more to totalitarianism,
submissiveness, blind belief to what they are told, and so on.

	- Igor.






From auto100 at ccusa.net  Sat Nov 22 23:17:55 1997
From: auto100 at ccusa.net (Mark Bott)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:17:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Klaas Foundation 1998 Tour
Message-ID: <19971123031641078.ACR197@ccusa.net>


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This message is intended to reach Auto Dealers & Auto Industry businesses only. If you are not an Auto related business and wish to be removed from any future contacts, please reply in the subject area only with the word "Remove" and this software will automatically block you from any future contact. 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Attention: 
Owner - General Manager - Advertising Director
The Klaas Foundation for Children Program

"What a program! We bought the program and then put 5 sponsors together for the event. We own 7 radio stations and we have done many community projects. As you know, TV and Newspapers never support your efforts due to perceived competition. The Klaas Foundation program was the #1 story on TV and front page on the newspaper. Our sponsors were so impressed and more important, we fingerprinted 400 kids in 6 hours! 
Wayne Hardy� Atlantic Star Radio Group� Wheeling, WV

"We are the #1 volume Chrysler dealer in Texas and #6 in the country. We are very selective about who we do business with. Mark Bott is a true professional and the Klaas Foundation program is now an every year event at our store. Our customers constantly mention the program. We are proud to be a Klaas Foundation national sponsor!
Amy Bowman� Grubbs Mid-Cities� Dallas, TX 

"We had over 2800 people in our showroom on Saturday. We fingerprinted over 800 kids and in the midst of this, we sold 35 cars! Mark Bott and Marc Klaas are extremely effective in the promotion of this program and I have re-booked and sent my checks for the 1998 tour."
Darren Kirkland� Koon's World Ford�� Hollywood, Florida

"I was overwhelmed with the turnout and so proud of my employees and our community. Every one in Omaha thanks me and asks when Marc Klaas will be back. I have committed to do this again next year and Norwest Bank, my cosponsor, said they are in for sure! This program still has my employees high and has spawned huge community involvement on the part of our organization. I have sold many cars to the people that I met during this program and established community, law enforcement and legislative contacts that I would have never had."
Gregg Young - Beardmore Chevrolet - Omaha, NE 


"I represent the Fulton Auto Dealers in Fulton, New York. As their advertising agency, we inspected, made calls, asked questions and brought up what ifs to Mr. Bott when he approached us on the Klaas Foundation program. We had over $400,000 in free press generated and our dealer group has re-book for 1998. We had 650 people at the Town Meeting and have recommended this program to all of our clients without hesitation."
JudySchmidt�������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������Camilus,NY

History

During a slumber party in October of 1993, 12 year old Polly Hannah Klaas was abducted at knife-point from her Petaluma, California home. A mass distribution of over 2 billion images of Polly was sent worldwide. She had soon become a symbol of love and lost innocence.

The world froze one cold evening in December when the media reported that Polly, "America's Child," the beautiful girl with the warm brown eyes shown smiling in home videos for millions of TV viewers, was not found alive. The country was outraged. The public cried out for change in legislation and pro-action in crime prevention.

"Polly was faced with a choice few people ever have to make," said her father, Marc Klaas. "By putting herself in mortal danger to protect her family and friends, Polly has become my greatest teacher." Marc Klaas immediately dove into a campaign to put children higher on the national priority list. With no prior media, political or public speaking experience, he immediately became savvy in affecting pro-active legislation, and sought to advocate children's issues and speak out on crime prevention.

The Purpose

A 7 day march through your state to affect�State and Federal legislation on the following issues.

� Raising children to the #1 priority in this country. � Keeping dangerous people behind bars.
� Making background checks mandatory for anyone that has unsupervised access to children. 
( Teachers, Coaches, Day care workers and any others that work directly with our children.)
Become a tour sponsor and join us for this March Across America with Marc Klaas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For additional information to become a sponsor, please contact:
Mr. Mark J. Bott, National Program Director
Phone 217-529-4174 - Fax 217-529-4172

47 Auto Dealers and an assortment of other retail businesses hosted this program in 1997, so there are many references.   If you are interested in bringing Mr. Klaas and the power of this program to your community, please contact us today.






From noreply at noreply.net  Sat Nov 22 23:44:16 1997
From: noreply at noreply.net (noreply at noreply.net)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:44:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Get Your Mailbox Stuffed with CASH for the Holidays!
Message-ID: <199711230734.QAA42034@parsley.people.or.jp>


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This...

I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail,
And Now I'm Going to Europe for the Holidays!



Hello!

My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks, my
P.O.
box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the cash  that keeps rolling in!

My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy for the holidays to celebrate!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared to
eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

                                                  GO FOR IT NOW!


.........Karen Liddell



The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is a LEGAL, LOW-COST, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.

PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN GET STARTED TODAY!



You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!

This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this electronic, multi-level marketing program
works
perfectly... 100% OF THE TIME!

Thousands of people have used this program to:

    -  Raise capital to start their own business
    -  Pay off debts
    -  Buy homes, cars, etc.,
    -  Even retire!

This is your chance, so read on and get started today!



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



Basically, this is what we do:

We send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next to
nothing to
produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our
business
by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every state in the
U.S.
allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (via your
computer).

The products in this program are a series of four business and financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

  * $5.00 cash
  * The name and number of the report they are ordering
  * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
     ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!  T
he $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST electronic multi-level marketing
business anywhere! 



FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******



This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if
you
don't order them).

     *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME &amp; NUMBER OF THE
        REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
        NAME &amp; RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
        whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE
        YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY
        MAIL PROBLEMS!

     *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the
        four reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can
save
        them on your computer and resell them.

     *  Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four
        reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible
        for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them
        from you.

2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
     next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way
other
     than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose
     out on the majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way
     this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it.
     Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will
     not work. ( I talked to a friend last month who has also done this
     program.  He said he had tried "playing" with it to change the
     results.  Bad idea.... he never got as much money as he did with
     the un-altered version.  Remember, it's a proven method!

    a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

    b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this advertisement
and 
         remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
         made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

    c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

    d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

    e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

    f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.



Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY!



3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
     save it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction
     portion of this letter.

4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
     INTERNET!  Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive,
     and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
     avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
     You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
     can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you. 
     BE SURE TO START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY!

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
     report they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY
     SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY
     send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt
     because they can't advertise until they receive the report!



------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***



Notes:

-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT
   CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED
-  ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS  MAIL 
-  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
   sheets of paper  
-  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number &amp; name
   of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and
   (c) your name &amp; postal address.



PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:


_______________________________________________________________

REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

      ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  


            TML
            P.O Box 383
            Pacifica, Ca 94044


______________________________________________________________

REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

      ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

            NDZ &amp; Co.
            P.O Box 7277
            Atlanta, Ga 30357-0277
_______________________________________________________________

REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

      ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

            FML
            P.O. Box 927603
            San Diego, CA  92192-0603
_______________________________________________________________

REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

      ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

            Marico
            2350 Spring Road #30-194
            Smyrna, Ga 30080
_______________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------



Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with
$5............................................$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).....................$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)............$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                      THIS TOTALS        -----------$55,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an Internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE! 

REPORT#3 shows you the most productive methods for bulk e-mailing and
purchasing e-mail lists.  Some list &amp; bulk e-mail vendors even work
on
trade!



About 50,000 new people get online every month!

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******



 *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and
     follow the directions accurately.

 *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them
    when the orders start coming in because:

        When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
        product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal &amp; Lottery
Laws,
Title
        18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
        also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state

        that "a product or service must be exchanged for money
received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
    instructions exactly, your results WILL be SUCCESSFUL!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL
    SUCCEED!




******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******



Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue
advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should
receive
at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising
until
you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue to
roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!




******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******



     This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially
the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
          Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

     My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a
cost
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I
received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail." I
made
fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did
have
seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and
it's not
for me. We owe it all to MLM.
           Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

    I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. 
Any
doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. I even
checked
with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal. It
definitely
is! IT WORKS!!!
           Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

    The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system
is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
of
money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked
this
out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
           Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

    Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that
the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I
wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised
when I
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile,
it got
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll
make
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing
about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people
live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
         Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

    I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I
wondered if
I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact
to
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another
program...11
months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more
than
$41,000 on the first try!!
          D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

     This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our
jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on
our
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you
do
it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden
opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
           Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA




ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND
GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!

NOW  IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN

DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS
POWERFUL RESULTS





From 76311928 at 24496.com  Sat Nov 22 23:48:53 1997
From: 76311928 at 24496.com (76311928 at 24496.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:48:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Jealously Guarded Secrets Revealed.....
Message-ID: <1023101@savoynet.com>


Increase your income dramatically + gain invaluable knowledge
with this cutting edge information.
Take control of your life!
Do you want to ride?Or do you want to drive????
go to:
http://members.tripod.com/~cana2/
See you there!





From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov 22 08:08:26 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:08:26 +0800
Subject: A Challenge to the Violent and Depraved
Message-ID: <50eddb2836de53dcf2eacd843d752fcf@anon.efga.org>



> Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of explosives will tell you
> that two tons of ammonium nitrate, sixty feet from the base
> of a tall, reinforced concrete and steel building, will not do 
> very much more than break lots of windows.  You see, ammonium 
> nitrate is a low velocity explosive compound useful for moving 
> dirt.  A brissance, or shattering effect, on steel and/or 
> reinforced concrete requires an explosive compound with much 
> greater explosive velocity.... C-4, several types of commercial
> blasting gelatin, even TNT.

Speed may be important for efficiency, but don't discount brute force.
A sufficiently powerful bulldozer moving at .1 mph could knock down
those exposed support columns out front.  Likewise a sufficiently strong
ammonium nitrate blast can do it.  Once the columns fall, the whole
front of the building will collapse.

Columns like this are built to withstand compressive force from above.
Strength against side impact is not the principle design goal.

> If you observed the news footage of the Murray Federal Building 
> after the blast, you may have noticed that the damage was 
> configured in a semi-cylindrical fashion, rather than the conic 
> section which would have resulted from a ground placed charge of 
> sufficient strength.

A semi-cylinder IS a conic section.  What you may have meant is that
the blast should have carved out a spherical section of the building.
But of course, once the lower floors are destroyed, the upper floors
collapse.  So a roughly cylindrical section is exactly what you would
expect.

> Consider that the placement of the array of charges necessary to
> simultaneously shatter several dozen large bearing members in the
> building would have required several hours for a well trained
> demolition team, not to mention unlimited access to the building 
> after hours.

And you're saying the government did this, when nobody was looking.

> Seismographs recorded TWO impacts that day, several minutes apart.

This is total bullshit.  This fact alone shows that the poster hasn't
done his research.  Besides, it doesn't make sense.  What was supposed
to be the purpose of the two blasts?  What was supposed to be happening
during the "several minutes" between the two blasts?  Wouldn't you think
people would get out of the building after the first blast?  Why didn't
any of the survivors report two blasts?

What this is, is a garbling of a report of a nearby seismometer showing
two ground waves a few SECONDS apart.  This can be explained by the
building taking a few seconds to collapse.  It could be a seismological
artifact as well, an echo from a deeper rock stratum.  You'd need to get
an expert seismologist to analyze the trace.  A real expert, not the bogus
"explosives expert" who supposedly wrote this.

> 6)  McVeigh pulled an Oswald.  Quit crediting him with success.

The idea that McVeigh is intentionally taking the fall for this is a
real reach.  First, where is his reward?  He's going to spend the rest
of his life in prison.  What is his motivation for not talking, and for
getting involved in this in the first place?

Also, much testimony has established that McVeigh was deeply affected
by the Waco killings, as were many of us.  Such a person would not have
wanted to cooperate with the government.  You have to assume that he was
just pretending to be upset by Waco, that this conspiracy goes back for
years.

Now you've got Nichols involved, and he has to be convinced not to
reveal the truth, either.  Fortier was involved in the planning, as
was his wife.  It's a totally unmanageable situation.  At least with
the Oswald story, they killed the guy who could have spilled the beans.
With McVeigh, he or his buddies could talk at any time.

It's all speculation built upon improbability.  Anybody who believes this
stuff is an idiot.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov 22 08:13:04 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:13:04 +0800
Subject: CIA - Some Questions
Message-ID: <199711221546.QAA00226@basement.replay.com>




Dear Cypherpunks,

In response to your upcoming questions, I have 
prepared the following materials:

> Does the Central Intelligence Agency engage in assassinations?

No. Executive Order No. 12333 explicitly prohibits the Central Intelligence
Agency from engaging, either directly or indirectly, in assassinations. Interna
oversight process assure compliance.

> Does the Central Intelligence Agency engage in drug trafficking?

No. In fact, the Central Intelligence Agency assists the US Government effort t
providing intelligence information to the Drug Enforcement Administration, the
the State Department.



Regards,
J Smith (Esq).







From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sat Nov 22 08:31:28 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:31:28 +0800
Subject: I have something to say.
In-Reply-To: <64a7lm$48d@newspeer2.dearborn.agis.net>
Message-ID: <199711221554.HAA28711@sirius.infonex.com>



nobody at nsm.htp.org wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:28:02 GMT gburnore+spam at netcom.com (Gary L.
> Burnore)  wrote:
>  
> >On 15 Nov 1997 04:21:40 -0800, rfg at monkeys.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) wrote:
> >    
> >: In article <64ajuv$r9 at newspeer2.dearborn.agis.net>,
> >: Harold <harold at agis.net> wrote:
> >: >I am taking back the statement I made. Not everyone here is pathetic.
> >:   
> >: Gee!  That's mighty white of you.
> >
> >Again with the bigoted, racist remarks, eh?
>  
>        
> Poor sorry asshole netscum Gary L. Burnore, <gburnore at databasix> <gburnore at netcom.com>.
> Just can't get over making substantially less money than Ron.
> Why the hell don't you layoff Guilmette and get a fucking life for yourself.
> Haven't you done enough damage to him and anonymous remailers you fucking piece of shit.
>      
> <cue netscum gburnore lame response>

Yeah, but poor Ron doesn't have a criminal arrest record like Gary does, 
despite Gary Burnore's unproven accusations, "big lie" campaign, crank calls 
to the FBI, etc.  Gary's charges get more and more fanciful.  Did you read
the one where he accused Ron of abusing some "teenage girl" at DataBasix.
Not a shred of evidence for his lies, of course.  Fortunately for him,
Netcom harbors net abusers and Gary had to suddenly leave California for
North Carolina after his arrest in San Francisco.

And there's his faithful sidekick, Belinda Bryan <eridani at ix.netcom.com>, who's
now posting with this forged line in her headers:

> Organization: Boycott E-Scrub Technologies. The owner is an admitted spambaiter.

This is the same looney maroon netcop who whined when somebody started posting
a URL from the AIDS Action League advocating a boycott of Gary Burnore's
ex-employer, Wells Fargo Bank in San Francisco.  And then Gary has the
nerve to call someone "racist" and "bigoted"?

These two net abusers richly deserve their NetScum pages:

  http://www.spambusters.dyn.ml.org/www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html
  http://www.spambusters.dyn.ml.org/www.netscum.net/bryanb0.html

--






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov 22 08:34:30 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:34:30 +0800
Subject: A Challenge to the Violent and Depraved
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971122162134.00717a50@pop.pipeline.com>



To buttress suggestions for simulating the OKC bombing, here's an SAIC 
press release of August 1997 on a training program for disaster handling:

SAIC AND TEEX TO PROVIDE ANTI-TERRORISM TRAINING TO 
FIRST RESPONDERS 

(MCLEAN, VA) Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) has 
signed an agreement with the Texas Engineering Extension Service (TEEX) 
to prepare civilian emergency responders for possible terrorist events. 
Under the agreement, SAIC and its teaming partners will provide training 
to firefighters and other first response personnel in the latest 
technologies for addressing chemical and biological terrorism. 

As the leader of the team, TEEX will hold training classes at Texas A&M 
University's Emergency Response Training Field at College Station, Texas, 
where firefighters and rescue workers will train in virtual reality 
simulators on the effects of chemical and biological weapons. TEEX, which 
is a member of the Texas A&M University System, annually provides training 
to 129,000 individuals and last year provided fire, rescue and hazardous 
materials training nationally and internationally to more than 28,000
responders. 

"The United States has been fortunate in that it has not had a successful 
terrorist attack perpetrated against it using biological or chemical agents," 
said G. Kemble Bennett, TEEX's CEO who oversees the 120-acre Brayton Fire 
Training Field. "However, experts agree that it is only a matter of time." 

"As a leader in chemical and biological warfare agent accident, response and 
assistance training for military and civilian emergency response agencies, 
SAIC can offer expert guidance to responders," said William L. Chadsey, 
senior vice president at SAIC. "Our company has provided emergency planning 
and consultative services to personnel and public service organizations 
worldwide." 

In September, U.S. Representative Curt Weldon (R-Pa.) is expected to 
introduce a bill in Congress to designate the training field at Texas 
A&M and its facilities as The National Training Center for Urban 
Search and Rescue. The new center is expected to feature building 
collapse simulators and a facility dubbed "Disaster City" to prepare 
responders to handle earthquakes and bombings in addition to chemical 
and biological agents. If approved, Rep. Weldon�s bill also is likely 
to facilitate the release of information from Bechtel Nevada at the 
Nevada Test Site about the handling of nuclear materials. 

Speaking at the signing ceremony, Fire Chief Gary Marrs of Oklahoma 
City, Okla., said, "The first responders in our communities, and 
specifically our firefighters, are tasked to respond and make a 
difference when disasters occur. Until the training and equipment,
utilizing the latest in technology, get down to the street level, we 
put our responders at an extreme disadvantage and endanger their lives. 
I am encouraged to see these types of cooperative efforts make this 
training and technology available to the men and women of the fire 
service who protect our cities daily." 

Marrs, who managed the fire and rescue mission at the bombing of the 
Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, chairs the Urban Search 
and Rescue Committee for the International Association of Fire Chiefs 
located in Fairfax, Va. 


http://www.saic.com/publications/news/aug97/news08-06-97.html







From ascan8506 at msn.com  Sun Nov 23 01:07:47 1997
From: ascan8506 at msn.com (ascan8506 at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:07:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pepper Sprays/ Personal Security Products
Message-ID: <806499472.HCD43645@deliver-me.com>


<HTML><PRE><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>**THREE GREAT PRODUCTS FOR THE SECURITY CONSCIOUS**

THESE VALUABLE PRODUCTS MAKE GREAT CHRISTMAS GIFTS TOO!

At this time, we are offering three different types of Security Products 
(all factory fresh in individual packaging),as follows:

(1) THE KEYCHAIN PEPPER SPRAY-
It is fast, simple, and easy to use. You have it in your hand while approaching your car
to provide added peace of mind. RETAILS for $29.95 elsewhere but yours for ONLY $15.00 which includes FREE SHIPPING!

Note: all Pepper Spray models incorporate a 10% Cayenne Pepper solution more effective than tear gas.Stops the attacker for up to 1/2 hour and can be used many
times repeatedly.Over 1,100 government agencies now report using this 10%
solution.

(2) SECURITY PLUS PERSONAL ALARM

This earsplitting 130 decibel alarm calls attention to any emergency!

The alarm is triggered when the pin of this pocket sized device is pulled. It is designed to clip to a belt, purse or to your sweats. This alarm is lightweight and convenient enough to go everywhere you go!

A wise move against attack or harassment. Good investment for:
-----High school and college students
-----shoppers in parking lots
-----people on night shift
-----riders on public transit
-----airline personnel
-----joggers and hikers
-----nurses and security guards

These make a timely and valuable holiday gift! ORDER YOURS TODAY!

Quantity  Price per unit for KEYCHAIN SPRAYER   Price per unit for ALARM
1-5                            $15.00                                             $10.00
6-20                          $14.00                                             $9.00
21-50                         $13.00                                             $8.00

******NEW ITEM!******

THE FOUNTAIN PEN PEPPER SPRAY!! 
SUPER WHOLESALE CLOSEOUT SALE

Freelance Security Products is proud to announce the latest to their line of
security products--the FOUNTAIN PEN PEPPER SPRAY! 

This pen won't write....But it may save your life!
The Fountain Pepper Spray is a lightweight 1/ 2 oz.(14 grams), and will shoot
up to 10 feet. Each pen contains 15 one second shots and has 75 pounds of
pressure. The pen's height is 5 3/4 " and the diameter is 1/2 ".
The formula used is 10% OC.(a maximum strength cayenne pepper spray)Effective
in stopping even those attackers under the influence of alcohol and drugs....

Please take advantage of our special deal. Pay the lowest rate available for these pens!

Quantity        Price per pen fee
1-5                $9.00
6-10              $8.50
11-50            $8.00
<B>
</B>Please remit payment payable to Freelance!<B> </B>and send to:

     FREELANCE!
     331 West 57th Street
     Suite # 340
     New York  NY 10019 

All orders are discreetly packaged and promptly shipped.
Please add an additional $15.00 for overnight delivery via FedEx
===========================================================
FREELANCE! SECURITY PRODUCTS ORDER FORM

Business Hours
Monday thru Friday 9am to 9pm (PST)
Saturday & Sunday 11am to 6pm (PST)

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4><B>VOICE: 212-539-3984
FAX:     212-489-8011<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>

<U>FORMS OF ACCEPTED PAYMENT:</U> 

1.CREDIT CARD ORDERS: *Minumum Order is $50.00*---Call to Place Your Order

Name as it Appears on Card:___________________________________

Credit Card Type VISA______M/C______AMEX______DISC_________

Card Number________________________________________________

Expiration Date______________________________________________

AUTHORIZED CARDHOLDER'S SIGNATURE______________________

TOTAL AMOUNT TO BE CHARGED______________________________

2. CHECK/CASH/MONEY ORDER: Please send payment and order form to addresss below payable to:  FREELANCE!
(Please allow 2 weeks for company and personal checks to clear)

Freelance! Services
331 West 57th Street
Suite # 340
New York NY 10019

ORDER FORM-----------------------CUT HERE----------------------------------

______Yes, please rush me a total of (#) _______ KEYCHAIN SPRAYS, _______ PERSONAL SHRILL ALARMS and  ______ PEN PEPPER SPRAYS. I have enclosed a total of $____________, in the form of  (cash/check/money order/credit card) payable to Freelance!. This small amount, based on the quantity ordered, covers all shipping and handling fees. Please send my order to the below address. Thank you.

NAME__________________________________________________________________

ADDRESS_______________________________________________________________

CITY_________________________ST_______ZIP_____________________________

TEL (Optional)____________________________________________________________

Email Address(For confirmation Purposes)____________________________________
(* we will send you a verification message when your order is received)
















<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 22 09:28:21 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:28:21 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971121220306.00a5e580@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122084918.006b94ac@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 10:23 PM 11/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I now regret any "help" I provided him in adding crypto and digital cash
to
>his plans. (When I first came into contact with him, he had utterly zero
>knowledge of how crypto worked, and how it could ultimately be used. His
>"wonderful idea" was cheesy, built on nothing but hot air. But once
certain
>ideas were explained to him, his system became actually workable, albeit
>not actually extant.)
>
>I expect an arrest of several of us, on typically trumped-up RICO-type
>charges.  Mere speech has become criminalized, through vague, speculative,
>conspiracy charges.

I wonder if Jim remembers the e-mail I sent him requesting a complete
description of his AP scheme, and if "they" have me on a list of people to
be watched or something because of that.  I can't seem to find his reply,
though--I think I may have deleted it when I uninstalled an ancient mail
program about a year ago.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNHcNC8JF0kXqpw3MEQKG4ACgqocnzb3DtMWMlEIyca343byt0EoAn3zb
G/EOjOfZS+6FB3H6AKQig8W2
=dQEw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 22 09:31:40 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:31:40 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <IICCMMMMBJBCCAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122090948.006bc3b8@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The following message was posted encrypted to a public/private keypair that
was posted to the list a few days ago.  For those on the list without PGP
here is the plaintext version:

To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Date: 	Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:14:39 -0700
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose at mailexcite.com>
X-Sent-Mail: off
X-Mailer: MailCity Service
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
X-Sender-Ip: 207.94.108.51
Organization: MailExcite  (http://www.mailexcite.com)
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Reply-To: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose at mailexcite.com>
X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net

At 08:06 PM 11/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I am still hopeful, longterm, but we may have to go through some dark,
>ugly, periods of war. And in this war, we know who the enemy is.

We in the U.S. are approximately where Germany was in the mid-1930's.  The
Holocaust did not start with anti-Semitic genocide; it started with
abortion.  After abortion became popular, infanticide, euthanasia and
assisted suicide were introduced.  (This is where the U.S. is at; witness
Jack Kevorkian and partial-birth infanticide.)  Once these became popular,
they began to become mandatory for individuals that were or were likely to
become a burden to the state.  After that, expanding the focus to include
Jews, Communists, Gypsies, and other groups on Hitler's shit list was a
trivial exercise.  I believe that the same process that happened in Germany
is at work in the U.S.; it is just progressing at a slower rate.

If there is another civil war in the U.S., I believe that the U.N. will
become involved.  I have been hearing stories of Russian soldiers escorting
trespassers out of the U.N. biosphere zones of various national parks for
several years now.  American soldiers may have pangs of conscience when
ordered to fire on fellow Americans, but Russian or Chinese soldiers most
likely wouldn't.  Perhaps acquiring East Bloc weapons isn't such a bad idea
after all if you can steal compatible equipment from the enemy...


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>IHk=
>=SMSY
>-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNHcR28JF0kXqpw3MEQLAbACeOULGTCneQINzdpbgZfyyUJLYU7kAoIsQ
KrAhCBjHjN/KRgN2DI3ojVTl
=5mNs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 22 09:42:39 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:42:39 +0800
Subject: Scientology war update
In-Reply-To: <aca0fceb47%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122081214.006bfa8c@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 12:50 AM 11/22/97 -0600, Eric Cordian wrote:
>There was a hilarious parody of Scientology on tonight's episode
>of "Millenium."  A Cult named "Selfosophy," created by a really bad
>writer named Onan Goopta, with a propensity to sue everyone, was
>featured.  It had a large celebrity membership, and helped people
>overcome negative thoughts with a device called an "Onan-o-Graph."

Onan is commonly (albeit incorrectly) credited with the invention of
masturbation.  (See Genesis 38:6-10 in the Bible)  I wonder what sort of
thoughts the Onan-o-graph induces? [snicker, snicker]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNHcEW8JF0kXqpw3MEQKHcgCg1OJL8Fx/7TXRGuPh04PM2YAF9OsAnA5f
bimSixl1AFufm4qpvd8yxSEy
=mvDw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 22 09:44:51 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:44:51 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb09c1b3bec4b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb09cb9b12720@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:49 AM -0700 11/22/97, Jonathan Wienke wrote:

>I wonder if Jim remembers the e-mail I sent him requesting a complete
>description of his AP scheme, and if "they" have me on a list of people to
>be watched or something because of that.  I can't seem to find his reply,
>though--I think I may have deleted it when I uninstalled an ancient mail
>program about a year ago.

Sounds like destruction of evidence to me....

Maybe if you turn state's evidence now, like Fortier did, you won't be
charged in the main "assassination politics" indictment. In fact, if you
can get list members to elaborate in more detail on how untraceable murder
markets work, with some stuff about digital cash thrown in, I expect you
might even get _paid_ as an informant.

The several-times delayed sentencing, with no protests from Bell's
court-appointed lawyer, tells me the Feds are trying to get some final
details lined up.

And they wonder why some people are holding their own trials of these
criminals?


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 22 09:55:34 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:55:34 +0800
Subject: Nonookie Masturbatshi beats Dimitri's time with the 'babes'...
In-Reply-To: <34762B94.6BF@dev.null>
Message-ID: <3yVkge39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



TruthMonger <tm at dev.null> writes:

> * Several news organizations reported in March and April on
> Japanese men's increasing sexual fascination with high school and
> junior-high school girls.  One expert interviewed by the New
> York Times, Hiroyuki Fukuda, 30, editor of a magazine whose
> title can be translated Anatomical Illustrations of Junior High
> School Girls, said, "The age at which the girls seem interesting is
> clearly dropping.  But it's only the maniacs who go for girls
> below the third grade."

The reputed Jap pedophile Hoichi "no clypto fo fo politically incollect
lacist holsemen" Ito must have an impressive collection of JPEG pornographic
pictures of underage Jap girls.  Yes, the Japs are happy to export child
porn, but not clypto. Why do your countrymen find one more irregar than the
other, Ito-san? The same reputed pedophile Ito also advocated allowing
gubmints to outlaw the possession and manufactyure of certain chemicals
and plants - what an asshole.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 22 09:56:14 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:56:14 +0800
Subject: The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <34766E12.4AF9@dev.null>
Message-ID: <JqXkge45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



TruthMonger <tm at dev.null> writes:

> Is it a mere coincidence that algebra.com went down and proceeded to
> send out all received messages in reverse order on the _same_day_
> that the Seinfield TV show featured a reverse-order-plot show?

I don't watch much TV, especially comedies. However I accidentally saw a
bit of "Seinfield" the other day and was surprise to note that they picture
Tom's restaurant, on 112th and Broadway.  I worked for 7 years upstairs
from that restaurant in a very secret organization.  I'm socked they even
show that building on TV. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 22 09:56:24 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:56:24 +0800
Subject: And made to write bad checks...
In-Reply-To: <34762EE0.4187@dev.null>
Message-ID: <yuVkge37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Spin Doctor <sd at dev.null> writes:

> * In August the Johor Baru Religious Affairs Department in
> Malaysia announced that convicted sexual "deviants" would, in
> addition to serving prison time as punishment, be bound and
> whipped.

But woudn't some of them enjoy it?

Anyway, I'm aways glad to see a country take up arms against faggots.
Didn't somebody report discovering a strong correlation between homosexuality
and some anatomical brain abnormality? If it's easy to detect, homos can be
identified and killed early in life. Perhaps even foetuses can be screened
for the telltale homosexual abnormalities in the brain and aborted.

See http://www.godhatesfags.com for more details.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 22 09:58:45 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:58:45 +0800
Subject: Alternative Apology
In-Reply-To: <347647EA.13A8@algebra.com>
Message-ID: <qPwkge42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



"(Igor Chudov @ home)" <ichudov at Algebra.COM> writes:

> The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.

How can you tell that a neighborhood's been infested by Japs?

A sign at the dog pound says: "We do not accept food stamps".


What's the happiest day of the year for Jap women?

Election day.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 22 10:05:36 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:05:36 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.880205874.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <TFykge47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



amp at pobox.com writes:
>
> so saith ichudov at algebra.com ...
>
> > Looks like Jim has been sentenced to 10 years without the right
> > to correspondence.
> >
> > To those who do not understand the cultural connotations of this
> > phrase, I will explain. During Stalin's purges around 1937, a lot of
> > people were arrested and nothing could be found out about them --
> > not even when they were held. Their relatives were later notified that
> > the prisoners were sentenced to 10 years without the right to
> > correspondence.
>
> the parallels between modern america and just about an other totalitarian
> regime to date are hitting frighteningly close to home.
>
> I remember when I was told about the horrors of the nazi and russian
> children turning their parents in for whatever the state considered to not
> be proper. now we have D.A.R.E.
>
> i doubt such things are mentioned in public schools anymore.

I mentioned in a private e-mail to Igor that the though of "10 years w/o
correspondence" occured to me too.  That what a great-grandfather of mine
got.  As for DARE, it reminds me of the great Soviet hero - Pavlik (Paul)
Morozov, a 13-year-old boy who grew up in a small village in the northern
Ural mountains. One day the Soviets decided to force all the peasants to
join a collective farm by confiscating their food and causing an artificial
famine[1]. Pavlik's father buried some grain hoping to feed hid family.
Pavlik squealed on his father, who was shot. Pavlik's grandfather later
killed Pavlik with an axe. The Soviets then shot the grandfather and
a bunch of other villagers, and made Pavlik a great hero worthy of
emulation by all Soviet children.

[1] Interesting enough, anyone in the U.S. who expressed the opinion in
the 1930's that there's a famine going on in Russia, or that the public
confessions made at the show trials might be questionable, was branded
a fascist by the new York Times crowd and was likely to lose his job.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov 22 10:13:48 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:13:48 +0800
Subject: The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971122175619.006aeb1c@pop.pipeline.com>



Dimitri confessed:

>Above Tom's restaurant, on 112th and Broadway.  I worked for 7 years upstairs
>from that restaurant in a very secret organization.  I'm socked they even
>show that building on TV. :-)

You bet, that secret org is well-known among CU pick-up artists as 
a swell place to pick up socks ...  well, more than that and sudden 
death's your next shock.







From declan at well.com  Sat Nov 22 11:59:18 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:59:18 +0800
Subject: House panel puts Clinton's private fax online
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971122113755.14764F-100000@well.com>







http://www.rollcall.com/newsscoops/leadscoop.html

House Panel Puts Clinton's Private Fax on the Internet

          By Ed Henry and Jennifer Bradley

          President Clinton's private fax number was placed on the
Internet by the
          House Government Reform and Oversight Committee for a brief time
          Tuesday in a breach that has infuriated White House officials.

          The number for the fax machine that sits right outside the Oval
Office was
          provided to Government Reform and Oversight investigators by
former
          Clinton political consultant Dick Morris, during an August
deposition, on the
          condition that it be kept private. 

          But the fax number, which Clinton uses for secure communications
with old
          friends and people he meets during trips around the nation, was
left in the
          deposition made public Tuesday on the Internet.

          "I can say on the President's behalf that he's disappointed that
the committee
          didn't respect the confidentiality of his number," White House
spokesman
          Mike McCurry said in an interview. "This is very troubling to
the White
          House."

          After being contacted by Roll Call with the President's private
number on
          Tuesday evening, McCurry did some checking and called back
within a few
          minutes to declare, "Unfortunately it's a match."

          McCurry complained that the White House will now have to change
the
          number and try to track down all of the disparate people who use
the number.
          "This basically has the potential to ruin a device the President
has used as a
          real good sounding board," he said.

          McCurry suggested this was an example of Government Reform and
          Oversight Chairman Dan Burton's (R-Ind) recklessness.
[...]








From emc at wire.insync.net  Sat Nov 22 12:05:24 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:05:24 +0800
Subject: Junior Jim Bells in Training
Message-ID: <199710281425.IAA00588@wire.insync.net>



Two more future cypherpunks added to the list of people who will 
someday "McVeigh" Washington, DC.

I'm surprised sending a flame to one of our elected leadership's 
public email addresses is not already a death penalty offense. 

-----

CORDOVA, Tenn. (AP) -- Two 13-year-old boys are charged with sending a
threatening e-mail message over the Internet to Hillary Rodham
Clinton.
 
Contents of the electronic mail message to the president's wife
haven't been released, but U.S. Secret Service agents are expected to
outline them during a hearing Monday in Juvenile Court.
 
The youngsters, whose names have not been released, are charged with
threatening and harassing Mrs. Clinton. They could face a fine,
counseling, community service or detention.
 
Officials say it's unlikely that the president's wife read the
message, which was sent last month.
 
Anyone with a computer, modem and an Internet service provider can
access the White House Web Page and Mrs. Clinton's E-mail address.
 
Her page includes photos, a biography, speeches and instructions on
sending an electronic message.
 
``The Internet is a wonderful tool that not only enables you to better
access information about the White House, but also gives us an
opportunity to hear your ideas and better serve you,'' Mrs. Clinton
says in the welcoming text of her Web page.
 
Senders must include a name, address and other information about why
they're writing. All senders receive an electronic message
acknowledging receipt of the e-mail.
 
It was not clear whether the boys included their own names and
addresses, but authorities say tracing e-mail is relatively easy.
 
``We aggressively investigate any threats or incidents of unusual
interest toward any of our protectees,'' said Steven Rutledge,
special agent in charge of the Secret Service in this area.
 
Cordova is about 15 miles east of Memphis.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 






From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 22 12:40:40 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:40:40 +0800
Subject: Lewis & Clark liked dogs too [was Re: Alternative Apology]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971122091625.5768B-100000@use.usit.net>
Message-ID: <34773685.5759@dev.null>



Brad Dolan wrote:
> 
> According to _From Sea to Shining Sea_, by J. Thom, famous American
> explorers William Clark and George Lewis provisioned their trip across the
> continent with dog meat.  They even traded with the indians in the
> northwest  for dogs so they wouldn't have to eat those yucky salmon.

  This might explain why 'Lassie' was always such a suck-up.
  Fear.

FearMonger

> On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > igor said:
> >
> > >I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.
> > >The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.
> > >
> > >Igor
> >
> > Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese.
> >
> > doormouse
> >
> >
> >
> >







From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov 22 12:49:54 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:49:54 +0800
Subject: The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
Message-ID: <84aa5c378c9f41b35c9d2de6bd850c30@anon.efga.org>



At 11:45 AM 11/22/97 EST, you wrote:
>
>TruthMonger <tm at dev.null> writes:
>
>> Is it a mere coincidence that algebra.com went down and proceeded to
>> send out all received messages in reverse order on the _same_day_
>> that the Seinfield TV show featured a reverse-order-plot show?
>
>I don't watch much TV, especially comedies. However I accidentally saw a
>bit of "Seinfield" the other day and was surprise to note that they picture
>Tom's restaurant, on 112th and Broadway.  I worked for 7 years upstairs
>from that restaurant in a very secret organization.  I'm socked they even
>show that building on TV. :-)
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
>
>

Is Dimitri a cossack? a cossock?, a cocksock?, or just a cocksucker? 

Typos the bane of understanding on the net.








From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Nov 22 12:51:14 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:51:14 +0800
Subject: Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
Message-ID: <Rt3gkVQgr0m4TyZz8swn7w==@bureau42.ml.org>



TruthMonger wrote:

> Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say CypherPunks used their equipment to broadcast
> anti-government messages.
> Authorities say CypherPunks used their equipment to broadcast
> anti-government messages.
> Authorities say Chudov used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Choates used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Cottrel used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Young used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say blanc used her equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say amp used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Schear used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Burnes used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Ito used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Vulis used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Wienke used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Galt used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> ...
> Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.

  Computer for sale.
  Cheap!







From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov 22 12:55:48 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:55:48 +0800
Subject: 10.5
Message-ID: <a2eb53d8b0dc18a9278bb092420fa0cf@anon.efga.org>



nobody since
       Nixon was been impeached for violating his oath of
       office by subverting the Constitution. This suggests
       either that everyone honors the oath or that the oath is
       meaningless.
            Suppose, in a society with a normal level of
       criminal behavior, there were no prosecutions for
       burglary. Would you infer that there were no burglaries
       in that society? Or would you infer, rather, that the
       burglary laws just weren't being enforced?

When a
       bill is proposed in Congress, our representatives almost
       never ask themselves: "Where in the Constitution do
       we get the power to enact this measure?" Instead they
       presume that they have virtually any power they
       choose to exercise. They simply feel no tension
       between their will and the Constitution that is supposed
       to restrain them. This doesn't look much like an ethos
       of limited government.








From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov 22 12:56:33 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:56:33 +0800
Subject: 10th
Message-ID: <26d40a394a05ef3de0c1fa2e4a33e550@anon.efga.org>



Professor George P. Fletcher of the Columbia
       Law School notes 
            "Not only is [McVeigh's philosophy] in line with
       the conceptions held by many of the nation's
       founders," Mr. Fletcher writes in The New Republic,
       "but it lives on today in the works of an influential
       minority of legal scholars and advocates."

Mr. Fletcher thinks the problem is that we have
       abandoned "the original Constitution" and adopted "a
       new Constitution" without facing the historical
       discontinuity this involves. In his words, "we do not
       teach this historical rupture -- not in our grade schools,
       not in our law schools. We are all good lawyers and
       therefore, like Lincoln, we pretend that the second
       Constitution is simply the natural continuation of the
       founding document."

 The first Constitution
       limited the federal government to external relations
       between the states, leaving alone such internal matters
       as slavery. The second Constitution, instituted by the
       Civil War, gave the federal government new powers to
       intervene within the states through the 13th, 14th and
       15th Amendments

The 10th Amendment, reserving to the states
       and the people all powers not "delegated" to the federal
       government, was not repealed or even modified. So
       Congress' exercise of any power not granted is still a
       usurpation, even under the "new" Constitution.








From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Nov 22 12:56:51 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:56:51 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
Message-ID: <0XLSufFhzVR/qyr+hQQZcg==@bureau42.ml.org>



Tim May wrote:
> At 11:03 PM -0700 11/21/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be
> >testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and
> >that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the
> >defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's
> >seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in
> >the event of noncooperation. I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch"

> I expect an arrest of several of us, on typically trumped-up RICO-type
> charges.  Mere speech has become criminalized, through vague, speculative,
> conspiracy charges.

Unreliable sources indicate that the authorities are waiting for a
Canadian citizen to make a previously postponed trip across the
American border before closing the net.
Do your Christmas shopping early!

A. Fiend 
    ^r







From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov 22 12:57:05 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:57:05 +0800
Subject: 10.75 - NWO
Message-ID: <f90bb9ba9703f9a2ada5a6b2dd82b1fe@anon.efga.org>



It's really a secondary matter whether the
       centralization of power is the result of a conscious
       collusion aimed at creating a world government.

Conspiracies are real, and conspiratorial behavior is
       inseparable from politics, since politics is largely the
       pursuit of power by sneaky people. 

I don't think Abraham Lincoln intended to destroy
       the independence of the states when he conducted the
       Civil War. He merely wanted to save the Union, and
       he thought in terms of that immediate goal. But it
       doesn't matter what he meant to do. As a practical
       matter, his policy set the United States on a course of
       centralization. The Union victory meant that no state
       could ever secede again, regardless of how tyrannical
       the Union might become. That removed an essential
       restraint on Union -- alias "federal" -- power.

I doubt that Franklin Roosevelt meant to destroy
       all remaining constitutional restraints on the
       government; he merely knocked them out of his way
       when necessary.

In the same way, today's globalists and
       interventionists, forever pursuing international treaties
       and alliances, may think they are promoting peace and
       prosperity, seeing no tyrannical potential in a "new
       world order." But the rest of us have to worry about
       what these arrangements may mean for us and our
       children down the road. Good intentions are beside the
       point. What is the actual tendency of these new
       contracts among superstates?








From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 22 12:58:39 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:58:39 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: [cpj:265] COS][cpj:265] COS
Message-ID: <34774099.4F5E@dev.null>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 958
URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/19971123/f90c73bc/attachment.mht>

From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 22 12:59:29 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:59:29 +0800
Subject: And your little dog, too
In-Reply-To: <4c629215684c4169e873ce69a68c218d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122113228.006fc44c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 11:00 PM 11/21/1997 -0500, doormouse wrote:
>igor said:
>>I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.
>>The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.

>Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese.

Wasn't that a TOTO forgery, rather than igor himself?

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Nov 22 13:01:02 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 05:01:02 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <xK8V2LxCxqYPzBZDlLDc9w==@bureau42.ml.org>




doormouse said:

>igor said:
>
>>I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.
>>The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.
>>
>>Igor
>
>Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese.
>
>doormouse

Perhaps they picked up the taste while they were occupying those countries
in their Fascist efforts for conquest.

DogMonger






From brianbr at together.net  Sat Nov 22 13:07:00 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 05:07:00 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
Message-ID: <199711222044.PAA14362@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/22/97 12:00 PM, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM (dlv at bwalk.dm.com)  passed
this wisdom:

>[1] Interesting enough, anyone in the U.S. who expressed the 
>opinion in the 1930's that there's a famine going on in Russia, or 
>that the public confessions made at the show trials might be 
>questionable, was branded a fascist by the new York Times crowd and 
>was likely to lose his job. 

 If I remember correctly about ten-twelve years or so ago it was
revealed thah the NY Times reporter who won a Pulitizer prize for his
coverage of the 'famine' was exposed as having not only been aware of
what was going on but wa actively involved in promoting the deception
and his award was revoked (not that it mattered much fifty years
later)

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Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Saying windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato
  that looks like Jesus and believing you've seen the Second Coming."
  -- Guy Kawasaki (MacWorld, Nov '95)








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 22 15:42:24 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:42:24 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <199711222044.PAA14362@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <ZLeLge6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



"Brian B. Riley" <brianbr at together.net> writes:

> On 11/22/97 12:00 PM, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM (dlv at bwalk.dm.com)  passed
> this wisdom:
>
> >[1] Interesting enough, anyone in the U.S. who expressed the
> >opinion in the 1930's that there's a famine going on in Russia, or
> >that the public confessions made at the show trials might be
> >questionable, was branded a fascist by the new York Times crowd and
> >was likely to lose his job.
>
>  If I remember correctly about ten-twelve years or so ago it was
> revealed thah the NY Times reporter who won a Pulitizer prize for his
> coverage of the 'famine' was exposed as having not only been aware of
> what was going on but wa actively involved in promoting the deception
> and his award was revoked (not that it mattered much fifty years
> later)

I recall reading "The book of lists" by Wallechinski/Wallace (sorry, I
threw it out and no longer have the exact reference).  One of the categories
was "10 biggest U.S. media deceptions".  Wallace claimed that the Hearst
organization manufactured the news of the artificial famine in the 1930s
and used the pictures from the tzarist era famines.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 22 15:42:41 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:42:41 +0800
Subject: Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
In-Reply-To: <Rt3gkVQgr0m4TyZz8swn7w==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <kseLge7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody at bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> > Authorities say Vulis used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> > messages.

Authorities are correct. I use my equipment to advocate destroying all gubmints
and killing all politicians and authorities.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 22 15:45:44 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:45:44 +0800
Subject: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119081153.0324597c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <uqDLge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk at ix.netcom.com> writes:
> I just heard on the news that Bill Clinton has been selling the right
> to be buried in Arlington National Cemetery (and possibly other
> military cemeteries) to campaign contributors.  The story originally
> broke in the latest edition of Insight magazine yesterday.  I think
> our Maximum Leader has stooped to a new level of sleaze, and deserves
> the revulsion of veterans everywhere.

Having zero respect for the military and all that goes with it, I fail
to see what the big deal is.  So he charges money for a burial plot...
Next he may be charging money for giving his contributors the purple
heart or the congressional medal of honor.  Bill is a political prostitute,
but by putting up for sale the worthless shit that the military would
want kids to die for he's doing a Good Thing.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Sat Nov 22 16:31:38 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 08:31:38 +0800
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <DGPMGGPENBAGCAAA@mailexcite.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Onan is commonly (albeit incorrectly) credited with the invention of
>masturbation.  (See Genesis 38:6-10 in the Bible)  I wonder what sort of
>thoughts the Onan-o-graph induces? [snicker, snicker]

get your demonized molesting mind out of the gutter
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Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov 22 17:00:52 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:00:52 +0800
Subject: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711230104.TAA04427@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
> From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 17:31:17 EST

> Having zero respect for the military and all that goes with it, I fail
> to see what the big deal is.

You moron, it has *NOTHING* to do with the military. IT HAS to do with
citizens who died in the service of their country. The not so surprising
fact is that the vast majority of those eligible are soldiers. The cemetary
recognizes their INDIVIDUAL sacrifice and NOT anything to do with the US
Government per se. Selling burial plots at Arlington should involve
impeachment.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|








From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov 22 17:06:57 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:06:57 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971123005751.006de700@pop.pipeline.com>



Tim May wrote:

>The several-times delayed sentencing, with no protests from Bell's
>court-appointed lawyer, tells me the Feds are trying to get some final
>details lined up.

Several other possibilities have circulated:

1. Jim's still ill, physically, as indicated by the docket's listing of
a doctor's visit, or psychosomatically, due to the strain of indefinite
incarceration and pressures of interrogation.

2. Jim is not fully cooperating, say, refusing to name others or provide
evidence about his own activities or those of others.

3. Jim's behaving erratically, sometimes cooperative, sometimes
defiant.

4. Jim's drawing out cooperation, negotiating for a better deal, perhaps
with his attorney's advice to do so.

5. Jim is faking it, convincingly, sending the feds off on wild goose 
chases, working with confederates on preplanned ruses.

6. Jim is not what he appears to be, never was, and nobody gets 
what he's up to. The current Jim just another ploy, AP a lure.

7. Finally, no disrespect intended -- first time jail is one shitty experience,
with nightmares of lonely long time sentence worse than most of us 
will ever know -- Jim freaks on sentencing day, shits himself, collapses, 
can't face what's coming, and the court mercifully delays the
day reckoning.

Still, there's a slim chance he's enjoying himself in Seattle or DC, working
an IRS Fortier-ruse on us.







From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov 22 17:56:13 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:56:13 +0800
Subject: Survey: Police Satisfaction [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711230158.TAA04577@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

>                   SURVEY SHOWS AMERICAN'S COMFORT WITH POLICE
>                                        
>      police contact November 22, 1997
>      Web posted at: 7:01 p.m. EST (0001 GMT)
>      
>      WASHINGTON (AP) -- A new Justice Department survey examining the way
>      the public interacts with police has found that one in five
>      Americans makes some kind of contact with law enforcement officers
>      each year mostly to report a crime, ask for help or offer
>      assistance.
>      
>      The study, released Saturday, also found that less than 1 percent of
>      people who made contact with police said officers used or threatened
>      to use physical force. If force was used, most respondents said,
>      their actions may have provoked it.
>      
>      The survey reveals nothing surprising, criminal justice experts
>      said. They said it shows that Americans are turning to police in
>      situations beyond emergencies.
>      
>      "I think to many people, the one in five number seems high. But it
>      does emphasize the varied role police have as peace officers as
>      opposed to just responding to crimes," said James Alan Fox, dean of
>      the College of Criminal Justice at Boston's Northeastern University.
>      "Most of the work police do is not necessarily respond to crimes."
>      
>      However, some feel the survey fails to address factors important to
>      relationships police have with citizens. police directions
>      
>      "It probably doesn't really speak to the strained relations between
>      the police and minority communities in America," said Arthur
>      Lurigio, chairman of the Criminal Justice Department at Loyola
>      University in Chicago.
>      
>      The first-of-its-kind study was culled from data in the annual
>      National Criminal Victimization Survey conducted by the Bureau of
>      Justice Statistics.
>      
>      According to the report, one-third of the contacts between the
>      police and the public was related to seeking help or offering
>      assistance. Another third was to report a crime, either as a witness
>      or victim. Slightly less than one-third of respondents said the
>      police had initiated the contact.
>      
>      White males and people in their 20s were the most likely to have
>      face-to-face contact, the survey found. Hispanics and blacks were
>      about 70 percent as likely as whites to have interacted with the
>      police.
>      
>      The study was based on a survey of 6,421 people, age 12 and older,
>      and used a sample of residents chosen to represent an entire
>      population. No margin of error was given.






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Subject: XXX ADULT ENTERTAINMENT
Message-ID: <199711231985WAA18921@post.com>


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From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov 22 18:16:33 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:16:33 +0800
Subject: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials (fwd)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971123020247.006c67e8@pop.pipeline.com>



Jim Choate chided Dimitri:

>You moron, it has *NOTHING* to do with the military. IT HAS to do with
>citizens who died in the service of their country. The not so surprising
>fact is that the vast majority of those eligible are soldiers. The cemetary
>recognizes their INDIVIDUAL sacrifice and NOT anything to do with the US
>Government per se. Selling burial plots at Arlington should involve
>impeachment.

I agree with Jim's acknowledement of citizen sacrifice. However, Arlington,
like all military cemetaries, is maintained by DoD for its own purposes
beyond recognition of the citizen-soldier. You bet it sells plots to sell plots.

Some citizen-soliders, I'm one, wish to have no association with military 
monuments due to inside knowledge of what the military and its advocates
are up to. Better to be buried unmarked in potter's field than near the
grotesque themepark of The Unknown Soldier and its strutting guards.

I wonder if any of the dead, if they had a say, would wish to be 
used for that purpose, or if its only the families and patriotic hustlers
who have a stake in prettifying the horrible truth: that giving one's life, 
a leg, an arm, a belief in valor and sacrifice, for a treacherous, militaristic 
nation and economy is a nasty deal, no matter how it's monumentalized 
with zillions of white headstones arrayed in sylvan vales like gullible 
soldiers going to kill and die in bloody ignorance.

Even morons grasp that these dishonorable plots are recruiting scams 
cooked up by the living up to no good.

Excuse me for losing it, don't want a war over honor, some pissed vet
to gore me with his pegleg badge of valor, some chickenshit reservist 
to earn a stripe.







From whgiii at invweb.net  Sat Nov 22 19:22:25 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:22:25 +0800
Subject: Survey: Police Satisfaction [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711230158.TAA04577@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711230317.WAA22649@users.invweb.net>



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In <199711230158.TAA04577 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/22/97 
   at 08:58 PM, Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> said:

>>      The study was based on a survey of 6,421 people, age 12 and older,
>>      and used a sample of residents chosen to represent an entire
>>      population. No margin of error was given.

6,000 people and that represents the whole country of +250 Million.

Ahhh Statistics the Mathematics of Lies.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 22 19:35:56 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:35:56 +0800
Subject: Violence and Depravity
In-Reply-To: <199711201532.JAA17885@multi26.netcomi.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122171122.006ee030@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 07:32 AM 11/20/1997 PST, Neva Remailer wrote:
>As a military trained explosive demolition instructor,
>I am compelled to concur with the absent testimony and published
>findings of a certain three star, to wit: It ain't necessarily so.
>
>Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of explosives will tell you
>that two tons of ammonium nitrate, sixty feet from the base
>of a tall, reinforced concrete and steel building, 
>will not do very much more than break lots of windows.  

The University of Wisconsin Army Mathematics Research Center
bombing in 1970 also used a van full of ANFO, and devastated the building.
The bombers didn't know that there was a worker in the building
the night they blew it up, and hadn't planned to kill anybody,
unlike the daytime bombing of the OKCity building.


>Also, if McVeigh really had followed the Turner Diaries recipe, 
>he would have put his bomb somewhere useful.  
>The book details the use of a similar device to destroy a 
>large government database, and the truck bomb is parked underneath it
>in the basement parking structure, _not_ sixty feet away...

And he would have also hijacked the van instead of using
one traceable to him (or stolen it, if he had the skill.)
Not much brighter than the World Trade Center bombers
trying to get their deposit back.  The Wisconsin Rads
had the sense to steal the van they used.
(On the other hand, somebody saw them tearing out of town
in their getaway car at 4am.)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From president at shithousehouse.com  Sat Nov 22 19:36:01 1997
From: president at shithousehouse.com (Slick Willie)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:36:01 +0800
Subject: Package Deal
In-Reply-To: <uqDLge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3477A076.7CEC@shithousehouse.com>



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Remove:  remove at olma.net


^





From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Nov 22 20:42:32 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:42:32 +0800
Subject: Survey: Police Satisfaction [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711230317.WAA22649@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971122221046.7264A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>




On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199711230158.TAA04577 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/22/97 
>    at 08:58 PM, Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> said:
> 
> >>      The study was based on a survey of 6,421 people, age 12 and older,
> >>      and used a sample of residents chosen to represent an entire
> >>      population. No margin of error was given.
> 
> 6,000 people and that represents the whole country of +250 Million.
> 
> Ahhh Statistics the Mathematics of Lies.
> 

Statistics are used by scoundrels to impress fools.
-Ben Franklin






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 22 20:53:11 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:53:11 +0800
Subject: Junior Jim Bells in Training
In-Reply-To: <199710281425.IAA00588@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <v03102811b09d4faf6463@[207.167.93.63]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 7:25 AM -0700 10/28/97, Eric Cordian wrote:
>Two more future cypherpunks added to the list of people who will
>someday "McVeigh" Washington, DC.
>
>I'm surprised sending a flame to one of our elected leadership's
>public email addresses is not already a death penalty offense.
>

Given the ease with which relatively good forgeries can be made, I'm
surprised more people have not had their enemies harassed by forging such
threats in the names of their enemies.

(Vulis, Toto, Detweiler...don't get any ideas.)

- --Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Nov 22 20:54:43 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:54:43 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <97Nov21.181732est.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971123135313.334F-100000@shirley>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:

[...]

> but say that the
> state should get entirely out of things like education and charity
> (welfare and healthcare) because it is none of the state's business - the
> churches (and other voluntary organizations) are responsible for these
> functions.

I would have to dissagry with you.  If the state has any business, it is
to provide services that the comminaty as a whole needs or services where
the market will not provide.  While churches (and other voluntary
organizations) have there place I do not beleave that it is a universal
solition.

Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 22 20:54:51 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:54:51 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: [cpj:265] COS]
In-Reply-To: <34774099.4F5E@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v03102800b09d557c02dc@[207.167.93.63]>



At 12:06 PM -0700 11/22/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>Have you heard of a Mac compatible OS called "COS" from Omega in East
>Germany?
>I just found an article about it in Japanese Mac mag and that says Omega
>announced the OS 11/13 at German MacWorldExpo.
...
>There's an interview with Omega's president in the article saying the OS
>runs on 030, 040 & PowerPC without MacROM inside. So bunch of Mac clones
>and CHRP mother boards from Taiwan etc may find a way....

This past week's issue of "MacWeek" said that this COS has been "delayed,"
with no new introduction date set.

Searching the www.zdnet.com site may reveal this. Or searching on the
company name, of course.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov 22 20:55:29 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:55:29 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <1b09dfab2e88a90142fd4e8a48293523@anon.efga.org>



THE BAY OF CAMELS
 by
 Eric Margolis  25 August 1997
 
 NEW YORK - The CIA's 50th anniversary last month turned out to be
 the Mother of All Bad Birthdays.  
 
 The Agency was still reeling from the defection of senior
 agent Aldrich Ames, who betrayed over 100 agents and CIA's
 inner workings to  Russian intelligence. Ames' monstrous
 treachery almost destroyed CIA's covert branch, and was
 comparable to the near fatal damage inflicted in the 1950's
 on Britain's Secret Intelligence Service by KGB agent, Kim
 Philby.
 
 Just when things couldn't seem to get worse for the
 beleaguered, demoralized Agency,  details of the CIA's
 biggest, most costly operational fiasco since the 1961 Bay
 of Pigs disaster surfaced - right in time for its golden
 jubilee.  Call it Clinton's Bay of Camels.  
 
 This column has followed sporadic CIA attempts over the
 past six years to overthrow Saddam Hussein's regime. All
 failed dismally. But in 1995, bitter family squabbles seemed
 to have weakened Saddam's regime. Two son's-in-law 
 embarrassingly defected to Jordan with highly sensitive
 military and political secrets.  The army was supposedly
 restive. In mid-1995, President Clinton's new CIA Director,
 John Deutch, and his deputy, George Tenet, concluded Saddam
 was vulnerable.
 
 Clinton, eager for a foreign policy triumph, ordered CIA into
 high gear to overthrow or eliminate the vexatious Saddam. The
 Agency had long financed a motley,ineffective collection of Iraqi
 exile groups and Kurdish  factions.  This time, CIA focused its
 efforts on the Iraq National Accord(INA), a group of military and
 political exiles, many formerly part of Saddam's ruling circle.  
 
 By putting them into power, CIA hoped to replicate Saddam's
 iron-fisted regime - but this time with one pro-American and
 minus Saddam. Most important, the CIA-installed generals
 were to ensure oil-rich Iraq stayed united, and did not
 splinter or fall  under Iranian influence.  
 
 CIA set INA up in Amman, Jordan. The US, Saudi Arabia and
 Kuwait provided funding. At Erbil, in the anarchic, US-
 created autonomous Kurdish zone in northern Iraq, CIA
 assembled and trained a small army of exiles and Kurds for
 the invasion of Iraq..   
 
 Agents of INA, paid by the US,  embarked on a bombing and
 assassination campaign inside Iraq,  that killed over 150
 civilians. Terrorism is bad, it seems, when used against
 Americans or Israelis, but fine when used against Iraqis.
 
 By August, 1996, the invasion was ready. It was to begin by 
 a CIA-organized assassination attempt against Saddam.  CIA's 
 army of Kurdish rebels and INA men would advance south from
 Erbil and drive on Baghdad, with massive air support from US
 warplanes and helicopter gunships.  Other anti-Saddam groups
 would invade from Jordan and Kuwait.
 
 Saddam, as usual, knew all about this ham-handed operation
 from his spies  inside INA and Kurdish groups. Souks across
 the Fertile Crescent buzzed with rumors of CIA's `secret'
 invasion. 
 
 Saddam struck first - just before the invasion. He 
 engineered a split between the two largest Kurdish rebel
 groups.  As rival Kurds battled one another, Iraqi armor
 stormed Erbil, the main CIA base in northern Iraq.
 
 The CIA and its mini-army were totally surprised. Senior
 agents fled their base one jump ahead of Iraqi troops,
 abandoning quantities of top-secret documents, electronic
 equipment, and agent lists.
 
 Saddam's dreaded secret police rolled up all CIA's extensive
 networks in Kurdistan and Iraq, executing at least 350
 American agents,  Eighty senior Iraqi officers, poised to
 mount a coup against Saddam from Baghdad, were arrested and
 shot.  
 
 The biggest. most expensive CIA field operation since the
 Bay of Pigs ended a bloody, expensive, humiliating, $200
 million fiasco.  Blame for this catastrophe must be shared
 by  President Clinton, who ordered it, inept CIA Director
 Deutch, a rank newcomer to covert work, and CIA's bumbling
 senior bureaucrats.
 
 As usual,  Clinton ducked the debacle and pretended he
 didn't know about it.  Deutch was fired and replaced as
 Director by his deputy, Tenet. True to recent CIA tradition,
 other responsible senior field officers were promoted. 
 Congress, which is supposed to oversee such major
 operations, has so far shrugged off the disaster. 
 
 The fact that the US government was funding terrorist
 bombings in Baghdad - and Tehran - was ignored by Congress
 and much of the media. As were past attempts by US agents to
 assassinate Saddam Hussein, Libya's Col. Khadaffi, and
 Lebanese Shia leaders, though these acts were outright
 violations of American law. In the Mideast, it seems, all
 rules are suspended: The moral compass spins.
 
 The Iraqi debacle is yet more proof that the bloated,
 demoralized CIA needs massive, not just not just cosmetic
 surgery.  One positive sign: recent appointment of the
 capable Jack Downing, former station chief in Moscow and
 Beijing, as chief of CIA's clandestine Operations branch.
 This is one posting the bureaucrats didn't get.
 
 Depressingly, the cost of the `bloodless' Gulf War `victory'
 keeps rising. Tens of thousands of American troops sickened
 by gas and germs. Over 100,000 Iraqi children dead from
 malnutrition caused by the American embargo of Iraq, and
 Saddam's stubbornness.  The waste of $200 million plus and
 many lives on  botched attempts to overthrow Saddam. Anarchy
 in Kurdistan. The undermining of Iraq's territorial integrity,
 with potentially explosive consequences for the entire region. 
 
 After all this, Saddam still sits proudly on his throne,.
 quite rightly boasting of his great victory at Erbil against
 the Americans.







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 22 21:08:08 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:08:08 +0800
Subject: And your little dog, too
In-Reply-To: <199711222339.AAA25078@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122193406.006e907c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 12:39 AM 11/23/1997 +0100, doormouse wrote Anonymously:
>>Wasn't that a TOTO forgery, rather than igor himself?

>I use Eudora, it doesn't show full headers, 
>when I suspect a forgery I need to save it to disk and 
>use a text editor to check full headers. 
>Have I missed an easy way to configure eudora to show full headers?

Which Eudora version are you using?
Eudora Light (and Pro, of course) have always let you see the headers,
if you'll work your way through the Tools->Options menus.
Under 3.x, the message reading window has a "Blah Blah Blah"
button to let you turn display of headers on and off easily.
I've configured my filters so that mail with obvious Toto headers in it
gets the Subject: line flagged so I notice it faster.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 22 21:09:02 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:09:02 +0800
Subject: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119081153.0324597c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122194807.0070b75c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 05:31 PM 11/22/1997 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Having zero respect for the military and all that goes with it, I fail
>to see what the big deal is.  So he charges money for a burial plot...

At least he's not yet arranging for people to become dead
so they can be buried there.   What was it Senator FooBar said?
	"I've met George Bush, and believe me, you're not George Bush" :-)

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 22 21:23:46 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:23:46 +0800
Subject: (No Subject)
In-Reply-To: <DGPMGGPENBAGCAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <B0RLge11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



"Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose at mailexcite.com> writes:

> >Onan is commonly (albeit incorrectly) credited with the invention of
> >masturbation.  (See Genesis 38:6-10 in the Bible)  I wonder what sort of
> >thoughts the Onan-o-graph induces? [snicker, snicker]
>
> get your demonized molesting mind out of the gutter

I looked up this verse and it sounds more like coitus interruptus than
masturbation.  Onan fucked his sister-in-law, didn't want to knock her up,
so he let his seed spoll on the ground.  For this waste of sperm god
struck Onan dead.  What a fucking asshole.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 22 21:31:34 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:31:34 +0800
Subject: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711230104.TAA04427@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <2csLge12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:

> > Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
> > From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> > Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 17:31:17 EST
>
> > Having zero respect for the military and all that goes with it, I fail
> > to see what the big deal is.
>
> You moron, it has *NOTHING* to do with the military. IT HAS to do with
> citizens who died in the service of their country. The not so surprising
> fact is that the vast majority of those eligible are soldiers. The cemetary
> recognizes their INDIVIDUAL sacrifice and NOT anything to do with the US
> Government per se. Selling burial plots at Arlington should involve
> impeachment.

You moron, the Americans who died while fighting in Korea, Vietnam,
Panama, Grenada (did any Americans die there?), Haiti, Iraq, etc were
fighting for an evil cause. It's a pity they died, but I've been rooting
for VC. Going back a few years, I have no sympathy for the Americans
who died fighting for the North in the Civil war, or fighting Spain
over the Philippines, or fighting the Philippine freedom fighters,
or exterminating the Indians.  There's no glory in the military.
Clinton is doing a Good Thing by whoring off the plots.

By the way, have the names of the Clinton supporters who bought
the plots been published?  I wonder if that Chinese guy was among them.

How much are the plots anyway?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov 22 21:52:13 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:52:13 +0800
Subject: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711190409.WAA27422@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0400272eb09d644cce6f@[139.167.130.248]>



At 11:09 pm -0500 on 11/18/97, Jim Choate wrote:


> Fortunately I can lay claim to being either the last of the baby boomers
> or the first of the gen-x'ers depending on whose definition you use.

We're probably close to the same age. I graduated from high school in 1977.

> Personaly, I consider the labels spin-doctorisms intended to focus folks on
> the differences instead of the similarities.

I love pigeonholes and labels. :-). Most of them are right, and you can
alway change them if they don't work. Paradoxically, I do agree that
shoving people into meaningless pigeonholes is, of course, stupid. Race is
one, but, for some reason, age cohort isn't, for me. Go figure.


> Opinions are tied to individuality
> and not geography or chronological ordering. What you actualy have is a
> group of individual opinions that once the observer is aware of the set then
> forms their own opinion of what the original opinions meant.

Again, I'm just plugging things into categories here because it helps me
think about them better. I think opinions may, like memes, originate in the
heads of individuals, but they get passed around.

> The point that always seemed clear to me is that there is an implicit
> assumption with the whole mind/body question, in short; there is more to
> reality than what we experience. Therefore our experience of reality is
> fundamentaly different than reality. A further problem I see is that the
> implied assumption that the observer is seperate and isolated from that
> being observed.

Gotta remember that the Mind/Body problem originated two millenia ago.
Again, I think a combination of ideas starting with Bacon and ending in
neuroscience, killed it off rather nicely. I'm willing to be disabused by
someone who's actually studied the problem lately, though.

> You are using a fundamentaly different science than I use. At no time does
> science assume there is a truth, only interactions that can be manipulated
> and are simple enough in their core interactions for us to understand.

Okay. However, there is a *direction* of inquiry, the thing which drives
science, which, I say at it's heart, is a quest for truth. To know how
things work, if you want to put it that way without using the "T" word. :-).

> Science is nothing more than a methodology for asking questions that fit
> particular and well defined forms.

I.E. That they're replicable? I'm not sure that's different from what I said...

> Please be so kind why heuristics is the only thing we got? Seems to me that
> serendipity has raised its head more than once. As I understand heuristic
> algorithms (ie rule base) is that they pre-suppose a system for goal meeting
> and then go through a itterative process comparing the current position with
> the goal and then reducing that distance.

I think your definition is more refined than mine. I'm saying that
heurisics are rules of thumb. Stupid brain tricks, if you will. Opinions,
and the manipulation of opinion are bound up with those rules of thumb.

> Ah, but there is a rub here. Respect is an opinion.

Recursion is fun stuff, isn't it? :-). Sure. Respect is also related to
influence somehow.


> If you don't know how to ask a question in a scientific manner you can't
> test it. Science itself doesn't say anything about the results directly
> other than they are homogenous and isomorphic, the observer does however when
> we examine the goals and reasons for the experiment in the first place.

I think this is my point. The Null Hypothesis versus H1, and all that. You
have to have an opinion about what's there before you try to test it, and,
of course, decision rules to validate that test.

> To
> observe nature requires a fundamentaly different methodolgy than 'commen
> sense' observation.

This is where my use of the word heuristics, said in anger :-), gets me
into trouble. Heuristics means "common sense" to most people. Rules of
thumb works, but it has a slightly different meaning...

> Further, the realization that there are processes in
> nature that are fundamentaly un-repeatable is what forced the creation of
> statistics and the study of families of events.

Yes. Okay. Repeatability I can also equate with observability, particularly
if other people can get the same data in their observations. :-).

> No, that is business management. At no point in an engineering study is the
> issue of cost v price examined. Study Nikola Tesla to understand why your
> statement is fallacious.

I stand corrected. I'm reminded of the various breakeven points in fusion,
i.e., scientific, engineering, and, finally, economic. :-).


> a simpler way to put it
> is that intellectual capital should not be avaluated by the same methodology
> we use to select books or movies to buy.

Good point. I understand what you're saying here, and I'll think about this
some more.

Certainly, science helps us with the fact base, and even the theoretical
base, of determining what's bulshit or not. However, when it comes to
things as nebulous as influence, and, as a result, reputation, things can
get subjective quite quickly. Resources, like you said, have to do with it.
"I'll take Jim's word for it" makes for a useful decision rule, a lot of
the time, whether we admit it or not.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov 22 21:52:52 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:52:52 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <a0c766cd7eac94b862b5202e12d07b45@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v0400272bb09d562b7c91@[139.167.130.248]>



At 5:17 am -0500 on 11/17/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:


> How quick we are to condemn those who step out of the "norm", no?  As soon
> as someone says something even slightly controversial, our inner censors
> rush in to separate ourselves from that person, to chastise him, to condemn
> him, regardless of the relationship we have developed with him in the past.

I find this particularly interesting in light of my treatment on this list
the past week or so. I point out that Tim threatens a federal judge, and
all shriek apostasy. I never knew there was cypherpunk orthodoxy until now.

It's vaguely refreshing to watch. Makes me feel positively radical.

> Once again, Bob wrote:
> >The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
> >absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
> >independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.
>
> Perhaps one way of looking at it is that if you can't see the black and
> the white, you're missing the whole picture.

Yes, but I'm not sure that people with a moral handle on their universe
can't see in shades of grey. I just said that relativism is, fundamentally,
an idiot's philosophy.

> After all, who would think that one would need to use an anonymous remailer
> and a pseudonym to express oneself in a free and open society such as ours?

Ironic, isn't it? If I had kept my criticism of Tim anonymous, I wouldn't
have to shovel out from the gales of protest, to mix a metaphor like a dead
horse.

Oh, well. Persistance breeds character, or some such Neitchean platitude.

However, I refuse to be shouted down around here when I'm right.

Armageddon ain't here yet, folks.

Hell, 1984 is still behind schedule, and, frankly, it'll never happen,
because the PERT chart for it is a spaghetti bowl, and because people are
out there, right now, writing code instead of putting a few hundred rounds
a week through their ARs and Glocks, holing up in the mountains, throwing
(metaphoric) rocks at the local gendarmarie, and keeping their lawyers on
hot-standby.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 22 21:54:36 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:54:36 +0800
Subject: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
In-Reply-To: <uqDLge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b09d64998fc7@[207.167.93.63]>



At 8:48 PM -0700 11/22/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 05:31 PM 11/22/1997 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>Having zero respect for the military and all that goes with it, I fail
>>to see what the big deal is.  So he charges money for a burial plot...
>
>At least he's not yet arranging for people to become dead
>so they can be buried there.

But wasn't Vince Foster buried at Arlington?

In any case, Clinton and Kevorkian have worked out a deal, where for a
$10,000 donation in cash, the Lincoln Bedroom can be used.

---Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov 22 21:54:55 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:54:55 +0800
Subject: Bob Hettinga's attention surplus disorder
In-Reply-To: <199711191251.NAA29914@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0400272fb09d6a2b2f97@[139.167.130.248]>




At 7:51 am -0500 on 11/19/97, Anonymous wrote:

> Several people have commented about Bob Hettinga's verbosity,
> Thompsonesque writing style, and apparent limitless supply of bubbly
> energy.

Er, thanks. I think. Makes me sound like an ibogaine-crazed Barbie doll
with an AK... :-).

> Sometime ago during a discussion of ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder)
> Bob told his story on the list.  He explained that he had had ADD, but
> was now on amphetamines to counteract this, and was feeling much
> better.  It was quite brave of him to discuss this openly.

Sure. Glad to talk about it. Well, yes, Ritalin is an amphetamine, isn't
it? I was thinking about going on actual dexadrine in time release form,
but, what I figured out is that while amphetamines made me rediculously
productive, they also made me a real grouch. I've heard that tricyclics
like Prozac help with that, but, eventually, I decided that knowing I had
ADD was probably the most important thing to gain from the whole
experience.

I haven't been on medication for ADD for at least a year, maybe 2? hard to
remember. (I can hear the howls in the peanut gallery now :-)) Frankly, I
don't have the attention span to keep up with all the ADD stuff, and the
novelty's worn off, now. ;-). I've also developed coping strategies for
dealing with it pretty well, I think.

> I suspect what we are seeing is that the amphetamines are more than
> counteracting his putative ADD problems, to the extent that he has
> more energy than normal to write long winded Thompsonesque rants, the
> content of which could be more clearly expressed in a treatise 1/10th
> the size.

Sorry to dissapoint, then. :-). Actually, I think that I'm just catching up
for all the writing I *haven't* done in the past 8 months or so, with
FC97/98, e$lab, e$pam, DCSB, etc. I've been very busy, and I didn't really
notice that until I sat down and deliberately started to write stuff again.

As far as amateur psychopharmacology or psychiatry is concerned, you should
remember that ADD is more about not controlling one's attention than it is
about having a deficit thereof. People with ADD can focus for for extremely
long periods of time on something to the exclusion of nothing else. It's
called, oddly enough, hyperfocus. :-). Now, I may be accused of that in
this particular case, but I think it's actually the result of *not* writing
anything for a while which is the cause, and not because I'm playing in my
medicine cabinet. Sorry to dissapoint.

If anything, it's maybe the opposite of attention at this point. I've had
to work very hard at saving all the fun calumny I've gotten here lately, in
order to respond to it when I can give it the proper time. And attention.
:-).

> Impatience is a useful trait, because it causes one to reconsider the
> efficiency of approaches.  Most of us simply don't have the patience
> to even read the voluminous posts of Bob's to locate the actual
> content amidst the colorful metaphors (rocket launchers, snot covered
> gun barrels, etc).

Hey, that's what the delete key's for, right? I write, like everyone else
who writes, because I like it. Most of the time when I write, other people
like it. Sometimes, people don't. Life is hard.

> No offense to Bob, but I think his effectiveness would improve if he
> let off the amphetamines a touch.

Try another one. Though I do appreciate your apparent concern for my mental
well being. ;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov 22 21:59:54 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:59:54 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711171934.NAA24335@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0400272cb09d5aa188d0@[139.167.130.248]>



At 2:33 pm -0500 on 11/17/97, Monty wrote:

> I am of the opinion that Hettinga still has some value, but he should
> work on his style and do a little more homework before posting.

Homework is for wimps. :-). I work from memory almost all of the time, and
everything I say here can be classified as my opinion, and nothing else.
Most of the things I state as fact are correct, when you root around on
them a bit, like Choate did with the Great Awakening stuff. When I'm wrong
on my memory, like the Aurora stuff, I freely admit it. Usually, I try to
write myself in some wiggle room, which I should have done with Aurora,
because I clearly didn't know what I thought I did about it.

And, frankly, I'm too lazy to go look it up when I'm just spewing a rant to
cypherpunks for my own entertainment, and the occasional witch trial. :-).
If we were doing science around here, Tim, or I, or you, wouldn't have
anything to say.

Check the archives :-) for Tim's comments on how thought out a post on this
list should be. :-). Actually, I'm very serious. Go look.

> I think what he is trying to convey is relentless positive energy and
> friendliness.

I appreciate your charity. I *am* friendly, for the most part, as people
who've met me will probably attest.

> He also doesn't seem to be aware that a good portion of his articles
> are insulting.

Nope. I know exactly when I'm insulting, and, when I write it, I don't care
if some people are insulted. See above. I do like to poke at people, a bit,
just for fun, though I try to let people know that I'm kidding them
somehow. I may feel cause to moderate myself later, of course. Which is a
good thing, too, because I *like* to shoot from the hip, and I *do* take
out people in friendly fire accidents on occasion.

> It's somewhat understandable if he is a recovering
> Democrat.

A little more complicated than that. I was born a John Birch Republican
(Pop helped found the El Paso chapter). Mom was one of those Republican
women who volunteered for, and finally ended up running, other people's
campaigns. She ran Alaskan Congressman Don Young's phone bank in his first
campaign almost 30 years ago, and he's still there. Teenage rebellion in
the mid-70's made me a liberal in high school, and in college, I've joked
about being a LUG (acronym overloading noted): Liberal Until Graduation.
(Yes, Wolfe and Thompson were my favorite authors, at the time, and it
shows, Heinlein, E.E.Smith, Pournelle, and other right-libertarian science
fiction authors are my other writing influences, mostly in childhood.)

Working for a living, particularly for Morgan Stanley when the market took
off in the early 80's, cured me fast of confiscatory government and
spending other people's money for a living. I've spent most of my time
working for, as Tim puts it, "hoity-toity" financial institutions, like
Fidelity, and Citicorp, though for the past few years, I've devoted most of
my time to thinking (which means writing, which is how I think, most of the
time) about the effects of financial cryptography on the net, and, as Tim
rightly says, not actually having a *real* job. :-).

I credit this list, and the eloquence of people like Tim, and Eric, and
Perry, and Duncan, and John, and Nick Szabo, and all the other people I
can't but should remember right now, for driving the last nail in the
coffin of my belief in any government at all. I think, eventually, that the
state will have the same power the church has now. Which is only as much as
we want it to.

> I've seen cases like this before and they are treatable.

Thanks for your extensive wisdom, Dr. Freud. Sheesh. Maybe *you* need a
job, yourself? ;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov 22 22:01:22 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:01:22 +0800
Subject: the art of fighting without fighting
In-Reply-To: <199711161959.UAA14136@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0400272ab09d50602030@[139.167.130.248]>



I'm wading through this queue of all this cypherpunks mail about me on a
FIFO basis, when I have the time to do so...

At 2:33 pm -0500 on 11/16/97, Tim May wrote:


> Hettinga seems to think I am criminally liable in case some terrorist
> decides to spend $10 million or so (the going rate, I hear) to buy a nuke
> so that he can make me happy in my, Hettinga claims, "will no one rid me of
> this city of pesitlence and vermin" entreaties.

Criminally liable to the extent that some guys with uniforms would bang on
your door someday about it, yeah, probably. Whether your lawyers could get
you out of it, is a matter between your lawyers and theirs, Tim. Certainly
if you show up at the door and, um, put a gun up someone's nose, you'll
have a harder time arguing your case in court. :-).


Besides, I think you're just doing all this to *get* that knock on the
door. Which, I guess, is your own business.

However, I reserve the right to criticize you about it, because, frankly,
when you're not looking like you're grandstanding, you look like a loon,
Tim.

> While I believe the odds are increasing that a nuclear or biological weapon
> will be used against the centers of oppression--Washington, New York, Tel
> Aviv, etc.--I certainly can't imagine any self-respecting member of Abu
> Nidal's team, for example, spending this kind of bread just to make Tim May
> happy.

It's amazing how much of this I agree with. It's what I meant at the
beginning, with the "soft targets" remark, before I started to tear you a
new asshole for being such a yutz. Clearly, someday, some idiot is going to
frag a major city on principle. Hope I'm not there when it happens. And,
when it happens, I'm obviously in the wrong part of the country. :-).

And, again, I don't think Abu Nidal, etc., *is* listening to you at all,
Tim, but I bet in your finer moments, you hope someone like them will, and,
if people *won't* pay attention to you, then you're going to get closer and
closer to *making* them pay attention to you, even physically, someday.

I expect that you're going to force a physical confrontation with the law,
with almost the same certainty that some idiot will frag a big city someday.

At this point, I'd consider it evolution in action. However, I reserve the
right to call you a loon for it, Tim, because, when you talk like that, you
*are* acting loony.


> But people like Hettinga and Crispin believe in guilt by viewpoint, and in
> keeping quiet so as not to make the authorities mad.

No. I believe that you have the right to say anything you want. So do I,
modulo the occasional charge of cypher-apostasy. :-). I'm not saying that
you should keep your mouth shut, Tim. I'm pointing out that you're
threatening a federal judge, and some people won't take kindly to that. Jim
Bell is a prime example of what happens, and I'll talk about that in
another post.

Word to the wise, in other words. If you want to martyr yourself, it's your
business, I guess. I just think it's a waste of your talents, and I think
you're inspiring other people to waste their talents as well. Kind of like
putting Oppenheimer or Von Braun in a trench.

The war, if it ever comes at all, and, frankly, I your think delusions of
impending civil war are exactly that, ain't gonna be fought, much less
start, in Corrolitos, Tim. Get over it.


> (Hettinga plans to call the cops because of this comment.)

That, of course, is a crock of shit, and I won't dignify it with any other
response.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From brianbr at together.net  Sat Nov 22 22:31:04 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:31:04 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: [cpj:265] COS]
Message-ID: <199711230618.BAA04727@mx01.together.net>



On 11/22/97 10:39 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>At 12:06 PM -0700 11/22/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>>Have you heard of a Mac compatible OS called "COS" from Omega in East
>>Germany?
>>I just found an article about it in Japanese Mac mag and that says Omega
>>announced the OS 11/13 at German MacWorldExpo.

 [snip]

>This past week's issue of "MacWeek" said that this COS has been "delayed,"
>with no new introduction date set.
>
>Searching the www.zdnet.com site may reveal this. Or searching on the
>company name, of course.

 I have read a number of articles speculating that Omega COS may be 
vaporware. I went to their webapge which has some great sounding text 
hype and nothing else, no links, no ordering info, nada!




Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Bacon and eggs: A days work for a chicken; a lifetime commitment for a 
pig"







From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 22 22:50:41 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:50:41 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <a0c766cd7eac94b862b5202e12d07b45@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v03102802b09d6e2dcfcf@[207.167.93.63]>



At 8:59 PM -0700 11/22/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Hell, 1984 is still behind schedule, and, frankly, it'll never happen,
>because the PERT chart for it is a spaghetti bowl, and because people are
>out there, right now, writing code instead of putting a few hundred rounds
>a week through their ARs and Glocks, holing up in the mountains, throwing
>(metaphoric) rocks at the local gendarmarie, and keeping their lawyers on
>hot-standby.

Spare us the "writing code instead of" appeals to some sort of guilt. The
moral equivalent of "unlike you, I have a _life_." Or the German war guilt
posters, "What have _You_ done for the War today?"

Not many people are "writing code," at least not _interesting_ code, at
least not recently. A lot of reworkings of basic crypto, a lot of
mindnumbingly boring SET crapola, but not a lot of truly interesting stuff.
The remailers, the implementations of digital cash...a lot of those who did
this at one time are now off working at real companies. Unfortunately, they
appear to be mostly buried in corporate projects of little interest to
causes of any importance. (I certainly don't blame them for working for
Verisign, or Cybercash, or whatever.)

Several days ago you listed some number of projects or articles or such
you're working on, and claimed this proved your Greater Worth to the Cause.

I'm happy for you that you believe this to be the case.

In several of your rants you have repeatedly fallen into this pattern of
attempting to lay a guilt trip on me, suggesting, variously, that I should
be sending you money for your dreams, or that I should be funding other
people, or that I should be "doing something."

I'm happy doing what I'm doing. I think I do it pretty well, Certainly
better than learning C or C++ and becoming YACC (Yet Another C Coder). No
insult to C coders, but at age 45, after making a bundle of money doing
physics and AI,  and retiring eleven years ago, I hardly think training
myself at this point to be a C journeyman is what I want to do with my life.

(Nor, as I have said several times, to no avail, am I hot to "fund a
startup." So don't repeat your pleas on this score, either.)

So, as I have said before, knock off on the moralizing about what I should
be doing and about how I'm Not Doing Enough for the Cause. Your moralizing
reminds me of Detweiler, who had an unnatural fixation on me and my exact
words and how my words were torturing him and on and on.

Get a life. Preferably, your own.

Oh, and as for your typically Hettingian "writing code instead of putting a
few hundred rounds a week through their ARs and Glocks" insult, you'd be
surprised to know who I ran into at the Los Altos Gun Range this afternoon.
And to think he was shooting an AR when he could have been coding "for the
Cause"!

Deep down, you're still basically a liberal.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 22 23:09:39 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:09:39 +0800
Subject: Survey: Police Satisfaction [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711230158.TAA04577@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b09d75ffa64e@[207.167.93.63]>



At 8:11 PM -0700 11/22/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>In <199711230158.TAA04577 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/22/97
>   at 08:58 PM, Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> said:
>
>>>      The study was based on a survey of 6,421 people, age 12 and older,
>>>      and used a sample of residents chosen to represent an entire
>>>      population. No margin of error was given.
>
>6,000 people and that represents the whole country of +250 Million.
>
>Ahhh Statistics the Mathematics of Lies.
>

The mathematics of sampling is well known, and is not the main source of
"lies." The law of large numbers, tendency to the mean, etc., are the usual
terms.

It's perfectly plausible, and common, to use samples of a few thousand to
get parameters (one of the few times this word gets used correctly) of a
population of millions, or even billions.

Bigger sources of lies are, of course, how questions are phrased.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 22 23:31:21 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:31:21 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's New Lifestyle
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3477D903.551@dev.null>



Coercive Counterintelligence Interrogation of Resistant Sources

A. Restrictions 
The purpose of this part of the handbook is to present basic information
about coercive techniques available for use in the interrogation
situation. 

B. The Theory of Coercion
Coercive procedures are designed not only to exploit the resistant
source's internal conflicts and induce him to wrestle with himself but
also to bring a superior outside force to bear upon the subject's
resistance. 
All coercive techniques are designed to induce regression. As Hinkle
notes in "The Physiological State of the Interrogation Subject as it
Affects Brain Function"(7), the result of external pressures of
sufficient intensity is the loss of those defenses most recently
acquired by civilized man: "...
Farber says that the response to coercion typically contains "... at
least three important elements: debility, dependency, and dread."
Prisoners "... have reduced viability, are helplessly dependent on their
captors for the satisfaction of their many basic needs, and experience
the emotional and motivational reactions of intense fear and anxiety.... 

Only subjects who have reached a point where they are under delusions
are likely to make false confessions that they believe. 
The profound moral objection to applying duress past the point of
irreversible psychological damage has been stated. Judging the validity
of other ethical arguments about coercion exceeds the scope of this
paper. 

The following are the principal coercive techniques of interrogation:
arrest, detention, deprivation of sensory stimuli through solitary
confinement or similar methods, threats and fear, debility, pain,
heightened suggestibility and hypnosis, narcosis, and induced
regression. 

C. Arrest 
The manner and timing of arrest can contribute substantially to the
interrogator's purposes. 

D. Detention 
If, through the cooperation of a liaison service or by unilateral means,
arrangements have been made for the confinement of a resistant source,
the circumstances of detention are arranged to enhance within the
subject his feelings of being cut off from the known and the reassuring,
and of being plunged into the strange. 

E. Deprivation of Sensory Stimuli 
John C. Lilly found "... that isolation per se acts on most persons as a
powerful stress...." 
"The symptoms most commonly produced by isolation are superstition,
intense love of any other living thing, perceiving inanimate objects as
alive, hallucinations, and delusions." 
"It is obvious that inner factors in the mind tend to be projected
outward, that some of the mind's activity which is usually reality-bound
now becomes free to turn to phantasy and ultimately to hallucination and
delusion."

F. Threats and Fear 
The threat of coercion usually weakens or destroys resistance more
effectively than coercion itself.
The same principle holds for other fears: sustained long enough, a
strong fear of anything vague or unknown induces regression.
Threats delivered coldly are more effective than those shouted in rage.

It is not enough that a resistant source should placed under the tension
of fear; he must also discern an acceptable escape route. 
In brief, the threat is like all other coercive techniques in being most
effective when so used as to foster regression and when joined with a
suggested way out of the dilemma, a rationalization acceptable to the
interrogatee.

G. Debility 
The available evidence suggests that resistance is sapped principally by
psychological rather than physical pressures. The threat of debility -
for example, a brief deprivation of food - may induce much more anxiety
than prolonged hunger.

H. Pain
"In the simple torture situation the contest is one between the
individual and his tormentor (.... and he can frequently endure). When
the individual is told to stand at attention for long periods, an
intervening factor is introduced. The immediate source of pain is not
the interrogator but the victim himself. The motivational strength of
the individual is likely to exhaust itself in this internal
encounter.... 

I. Heightened Suggestibility and Hypnosis 
Merton M. Gill and Margaret Brenman state, "The psychoanalytic theory of
hypnosis clearly implies, where it does not explicitly state, that
hypnosis is a form of regression." And they add, "...induction [of
hypnosis] is the process of bringing about a regression, while the
hypnotic state is the established regression." 
The problem of overcoming the resistance of an uncooperative
interrogatee is essentially a problem of inducing regression to a level
at which the resistance can no longer be sustained. Hypnosis is one way
of regressing people.

J. Narcosis 
Just as the threat of pain may more effectively induce compliance than
its infliction, so an interrogatee's mistaken belief that he has been
drugged may make him a more useful interrogation subject than he would
be under narcosis. 
Nevertheless, drugs can be effective in overcoming resistance not
dissolved by other techniques. As has already been noted, the so-called
silent drug (a pharmacologically potent substance given to a person
unaware of its administration) can make possible the induction of
hypnotic trance in a previously unwilling subject.

K. The Detection of Malingering 
Another technique is to pretend to take the deception seriously, express
grave concern, and tell the "patient" that the only remedy for his
illness is a series of electric shock treatments or a frontal lobotomy.






From attila at hun.org  Sun Nov 23 00:08:19 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:08:19 +0800
Subject: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971123020247.006c67e8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971123.074256.attila@hun.org>



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on or about 971122:2102, in <1.5.4.32.19971123020247.006c67e8 at pop.pipeline.com>, 
    John Young <jya at pipeline.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>Even morons grasp that these dishonorable plots are recruiting scams  cooked up
>by the living up to no good.

>Excuse me for losing it, don't want a war over honor, some pissed vet to gore
>me with his pegleg badge of valor, some chickenshit reservist  to earn a
>stripe.

    hell, no!  I did mine, gave it all I had in the face of it until the 
    youthful idealism from the farm (despite Harvard) was shot and the 
    pure bullshit of the American ideal was exposed as the world's bully 
    --at least you knew where the commies were; our great American idealistic
    motherfuckers were nothing more than an oligarchy of military-industrial
    opportunists and power freaks.

    if I had not carried too much rank, they would have assigned me to
    retrieve the dead from the jungle detail...  the ultimate in one way
    tickets.

    even if they would pardon me for my sins of telling them to fuck-off, 
    I'll join you in potters' field --probably safer anyway....

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From attila at hun.org  Sun Nov 23 00:22:23 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:22:23 +0800
Subject: Anti-Grav?
In-Reply-To: <v03102824b094d230eca7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971123.080313.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971116:0943, in <v03102824b094d230eca7@[207.167.93.63]>, 
    Tim May <tcmay at got.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>Wake me up if it's actually confirmed. But don't wake me up just to tell me the
>claims have been withdrawn.

    
    the claims have not been withdrawn.  there was an article 
    recently in the American Physics Society rag. anything goes at 
    absolute temperature including the proof of the einstein-bose
    predictions where molecules literally overlap.  plasmas have 
    some interesting effects on spatial relationships in non-miscable
    crytal structures, but the einstein-bose...

    there are at least 300 projects on cold fusion running... and one
    plausible explanation which I am aware of.  also, look at the other
    end --politics continues the Princeton ring, while the LLL Shiva
    project has not been metioned for several years.  go figure.

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Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 23 00:26:37 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:26:37 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: [cpj:265] COS]
Message-ID: <199711230814.JAA15887@basement.replay.com>



Brian B. Riley wrote:
> 
> On 11/22/97 10:39 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:
> 
> >At 12:06 PM -0700 11/22/97, TruthMonger wrote:
> >>Have you heard of a Mac compatible OS called "COS" from Omega in East
> >>Germany?
> 
> >This past week's issue of "MacWeek" said that this COS has been "delayed,"
> >with no new introduction date set.
>
>  I have read a number of articles speculating that Omega COS may be
> vaporware. I went to their webapge which has some great sounding text
> hype and nothing else, no links, no ordering info, nada!

I have a friend from Santa Fe who did some work with Omega and her
opinion was that their purpose in crypto OS development was aimed
toward using it as leverage for being bribed into compromising or
abandoning it in return for government/spook business.

Apparently, there are consultants in some of the former Eastern Bloc
countries who specialize in negotiations between corporations and
shadow agencies in order to find out the highest price they can
sell out or capitulate for without making it worth the spooks time
and effort to sabotage their project or whack them out. It seems
that it can be quite profitable if you don't waste money foolishly
on hiring programmers, engineers, etc.

I have to go now and work on my "Lounge Suit Larry Nukes DC While
Stripping Barbie Naked" program. It uses BAD IDEA encryption.

A. Fiend
    ^r






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 23 00:35:33 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:35:33 +0800
Subject: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <199711230807.JAA15377@basement.replay.com>



Timothy May was born when his mother was on the toilet.

          o       o
        /<         >\ Timothy May
        \\\_______///
        //         \\






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 23 00:36:16 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:36:16 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971123135313.334F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <FJ1Lge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
>
> > but say that the
> > state should get entirely out of things like education and charity
> > (welfare and healthcare) because it is none of the state's business - the
> > churches (and other voluntary organizations) are responsible for these
> > functions.
>
> I would have to dissagry with you.  If the state has any business, it is
> to provide services that the comminaty as a whole needs or services where
> the market will not provide.  While churches (and other voluntary
> organizations) have there place I do not beleave that it is a universal
> solition.
>
> Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.

Your influence as a voter?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!!!

When you contribute voluntarily, you can choose to contribute elsewhere
if you think your contributions are misused (like I use my charitable
deduction to the max, but I don't give to the united way and urge
others not to :-). You don't have a choice about paying taxes to
pay for the horrible public schools / socialized medicine and your
influence as a voter ain't worth shit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov 23 01:05:13 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:05:13 +0800
Subject: Survey: Police Satisfaction [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b09d75ffa64e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711230859.DAA26028@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102803b09d75ffa64e@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/23/97 
   at 01:02 AM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>At 8:11 PM -0700 11/22/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>In <199711230158.TAA04577 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/22/97
>>   at 08:58 PM, Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> said:
>>
>>>>      The study was based on a survey of 6,421 people, age 12 and older,
>>>>      and used a sample of residents chosen to represent an entire
>>>>      population. No margin of error was given.
>>
>>6,000 people and that represents the whole country of +250 Million.
>>
>>Ahhh Statistics the Mathematics of Lies.
>>

>The mathematics of sampling is well known, and is not the main source of
>"lies." The law of large numbers, tendency to the mean, etc., are the
>usual terms.

>It's perfectly plausible, and common, to use samples of a few thousand to
>get parameters (one of the few times this word gets used correctly) of a
>population of millions, or even billions.

It is common but it is bad science. As in this study there are too many
factors that would affect the results of the survey for such a small
sample size to be accurate. One of the biggest problems is the different
results that will be acquired by taking samples for different groups. A
sample group from say the projects in Chicago will give much different
results than a sample group taken from say Lake Forest. Now multiply this
"regional" effect several times for each group that will have a
predisposition one way or another (pro or anti police). For a survey to
have an accurate representation it needs to identify and sample from each
of these groups to give an accurate overall picture.

Lets say that you have decided on a sample size of 6000 and have
identified 100 different "reginal" groups that you need to sample from.
Your sample size is now down to 60/group and this is only on one factor of
many that can cause your figures to be bias. Lets now say that you have
discovered 10 key factors per group that need to be taken into account.
Your sample size is now down to 6/group/factor. Not a very comforting
sample size for developing an accurate "global" analysis.

Now lets take into account things like how the interviewer presents
himself to the subject being questioned. A officer wearing a uniform will
get a different response than say someone in a teeshirt and bluejeans.

Then you have the actual setting that the interview is taking place. Ask
someone at the local bar what they think about the police and you will get
one answer ask them at their office with their boss in the room and you
will get a different set of responses.

The single fact that there is another person there giveing the interview
rather then say haveing the subject fill out a questionnaire privately
will bias the results. 

Of course having mail in questionnaire has it's own set of problems as
only a small fraction of the people will respond and the people that do
respond may bias your results because of the reasons that they have for
responding (You may have a disproportionate number of responses from
people who feel passionately on the subject one way or another).

Now that we have gotten through all of that we still have the survey
itself.

First you have to determine what questions to ask to find the answers that
you are looking for. Not as easy as this may first seem (not to mention
the issue of wether you are looking for the right answers).

Then you have to worry about how the questions are phrased.

Now you have to study what effects these will have on the various
group/factors above. While one set of questions, phraseology, environment,
and interviewer may result in an accurate result for one group a
completely different set may be needed for another group.

>Bigger sources of lies are, of course, how questions are phrased.

How the questions are phrased are only one of a large number of factors
that influence the results of such a survey. Statistical Sampling is
difficult enough in the real sciences (chem, bio, phy, ...) let alone the
pseudo-sciences like psychology and sociology.

Any such survey as the one here to be able to show an accurate picture
could happen only by chance. More than likely they could have obtained
more accurate results by sitting in a back room flipping a coin.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From tm at dev.null  Sun Nov 23 01:30:04 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:30:04 +0800
Subject: Turn Dead Molested Children Into BIG $$$! / Re: Klaas Foundation 1998 Tour
In-Reply-To: <19971123031641078.ACR197@ccusa.net>
Message-ID: <3477F435.55CC@dev.null>



Mark Bott wrote:
> 
> ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
> This message is intended to reach Auto Dealers & Auto Industry businesses only. 
If you are not an Auto related business and wish to be removed from any
future 
contacts, please reply in the subject area only with the word "Remove"
and this 
software will automatically block you from any future contact.
> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

As Chief SpokesPerson for the CypherPunks Auto Dealers and Child 
Pornographers of America, I would like to I would like to state 
that we are behind you <no sodomy pun intended> 100%.

> The Klaas Foundation for Children Program
> 
> "The Klaas Foundation program was the #1 story on TV and front 
> page on the newspaper. Our sponsors were so impressed and more 
> important, we fingerprinted 400 kids in 6 hours!"
> Wayne Hardy  Atlantic Star Radio Group  Wheeling, WV

Good work, Wayne. The New World Order spooks on the CypherPunks
mailing list are proud of you for cutting down on their work load.
Thanks for the help!

> "We are the #1 volume Chrysler dealer in Texas and #6 in the 
> country. We are very selective about who we do business with." 
> Amy Bowman  Grubbs Mid-Cities  Dallas, TX

  Happy that the program gives you an opportunity to use a dead,
molested child to promote your business, Amy. Also glad that you
don't just sell cars to people who have the money to buy them.
 
> "We had over 2800 people in our showroom on Saturday. We 
> fingerprinted over 800 kids and in the midst of this, we sold 
> 35 cars! Mark Bott and Marc Klaas are extremely effective in 
> the promotion of this program and I have re-booked and sent 
> my checks for the 1998 tour."
> Darren Kirkland  Koon's World Ford   Hollywood, Florida

  Good for you, Mark. That's 800 more potential customers you
can track once they reach driving age.
  A little tip for you: if you put some blood-stains on the seats
of the cars you sell during this period, you can increase your
sales 50% just through subliminal erotic excitation of your
customers.

> "I have sold many cars to the people that I met during this 
> program.
> Gregg Young - Beardmore Chevrolet - Omaha, NE

  Met some nice young girls too, didn't you, Mark?

> "We had over $400,000 in free press generated and our dealer 
> group has re-book for 1998."
> Judy Schmidt  Camilus,NY

  Judy had the good sense to have her dealership's company logo
added to the autopsy pictures she made available to the press.
  Way to go, Judy!

  The CypherPunks Auto Dealers and Child Pornographers of America
would like to help you all increase your sales next year by 
providing you with computer-generated photographs of Polly Klaas
being bungholed by the perpetrator. (Plenty of blood on the
little tart!)
  To get the high-quality close-up graphic reproductions, send
$49.95 to:
  CypherPunks Auto Dealers & Child Pornographers
  BOX 281,
  Bienfait, Saskatchewan
    CANADA  S0C 0M0

[We also have a limited number of "Porry Kraas red him on!"
 bumperstickers left in our overseas warehouse.]






From tm at dev.null  Sun Nov 23 01:33:54 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:33:54 +0800
Subject: The Company You Keep Could Be Your Own / Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19971123.074256.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <3477EC5C.36AB@dev.null>



Attila T. Hun wrote:
>     John Young <jya at pipeline.com> was purported to have
>     expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:
> >Excuse me for losing it, don't want a war over honor, some pissed vet to gore
> >me with his pegleg badge of valor, some chickenshit reservist  to earn a
> >stripe.
> 
>     hell, no!  I did mine, gave it all I had in the face of it until the
>     youthful idealism from the farm (despite Harvard) was shot and the
>     pure bullshit of the American ideal was exposed as the world's bully
>
>     even if they would pardon me for my sins of telling them to fuck-off,
>     I'll join you in potters' field --probably safer anyway....

	And the company is better...

Excerpt from WebWorld: 
My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere 
inside myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there
is a 'they' to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally 
come to this for me, as for countless others. 

The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is essential 
for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and liberty to ask 
themselves upon finding themselves marveling at the outrageousness 
being perpetrated upon their neighbors by 'them'...by 'others'...by 
'Friends of the Destroyer.' 

The question is:
  "Why didn't _I_ do something?"

These are the words that legend ascribes to the tombstone erected in a 
'potters field' outside of the B.TV city of Austin, Texas. The 
tombstone, according to historians who have verified it's existence,
though it was removed after being in place for less than twenty-four
hours, was supposedly that of Vice-Admiral B. D'Shauneaux. 

And the ultimate irony, for those whose cry of lament remains, "Why 
didn't somebody 'do' something?", lies in the empty grave lying next 
to that purported to be the Vice-Admiral's final resting place-the 
grave which, legend has it, is reserved for the last free man or woman
remaining on this planet. The grave whose headstone is a plain and 
simple mirror. 

Legend has it that, at dusk during the spring equinox, that one who 
gazes into the mirror will hear the sound of the Vice-Admiral's voice 
echoing through the labyrinth of the communal mind of mankind,
whispering as if it were a gentle breeze rustling softly through the 
leaves of the aged willows surrounding the site. 

It is a voice tinged with an equal mixture of conscience and remorse. 
It is a voice that whispers, quite simply, 
    "Why didn't I do something?"







From tm at dev.null  Sun Nov 23 01:43:15 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:43:15 +0800
Subject: Tough Love
In-Reply-To: <199711230815.AAA15351@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <3477F5CD.22ED@dev.null>



sampler-request at lmboyd.com wrote:
> ======================================================
>  The Laws of the Twelve Tables in ancient Rome -- dating
> from about 450 B.C. -- permitted a father to imprison his
> children, chain them, whip them, sell them into slavery,
> or kill them. Not just when they were young. Even after
> they grew up. Even after they went into politics. Even
> after they attained high office. Nowhere else in western
> history has there been anything quite like that
> patriarchal system.
> ==============================================
> 
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm







From tm at dev.null  Sun Nov 23 01:43:15 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:43:15 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <FJ1Lge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3477F7AC.2032@dev.null>



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: 
> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> >
> > Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> > have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.
> 
> Your influence as a voter?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!!!

A million comedians out of work, and ? has to try to launch a
new career...






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 23 02:00:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:00:14 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: [cpj:265] COS]
Message-ID: <199711230935.KAA24034@basement.replay.com>



Anonymous wrote:
> > >At 12:06 PM -0700 11/22/97, TruthMonger wrote:
> > >>Have you heard of a Mac compatible OS called "COS" from Omega in East
> > >>Germany?

> I have a friend from Santa Fe who did some work with Omega and her
> opinion was that their purpose in crypto OS development was aimed
> toward using it as leverage for being bribed into compromising or
> abandoning it in return for government/spook business.

Check out the number of companies in the computer security business
and closely related areas who have a board of directors composed of
ex-spooks and ex-military brass.
I can hardly wait for the Pretty Good Freeh-Dumb software to hit
the market after the pictures of J. Edgar Hoover buttfucking young
Louey are released.

A Future Political Prisoner To Be Named Later







From tm at dev.null  Sun Nov 23 02:16:59 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:16:59 +0800
Subject: Anti-Grav?
In-Reply-To: <19971123.080313.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <3477FEDA.59AF@dev.null>



Attila T. Hun wrote:
>     Tim May <tcmay at got.net> was purported to have expostulated 
>     to perpetuate an opinion (but we _know_ how he lies):
> 
> >Wake me up if it's actually confirmed. But don't wake me up just to tell me the
> >claims have been withdrawn.
> 
> 
>     there was an article
>     recently in the American Physics Society rag. anything goes at
>     absolute temperature including the proof of the einstein-bose
>     predictions where molecules literally overlap.
> 
>     there are at least 300 projects on cold fusion running... and one
>     plausible explanation which I am aware of.  also, look at the other
>     end --politics continues the Princeton ring, while the LLL Shiva
>     project has not been metioned for several years.  go figure.

  I am tired of the constant, snide implications on the CypherPunks
list that the government might be holding something back from the
American citizens.
  Just because the announcement of startling new breakthroughs in
such things as 'cold fusion' and the like quickly turn into 'cold
silence' and denials is no reason to think that those in power
are using the latest developments in technology to increase their
hold on society, instead of using it for the benefit of all of
mankind (and the 'broads', too).

  Some asshole on the list (it might have been me, before my 90 days
in solitary confinement in a cell next to Jim Bell) even went so
far as to suggest that if the secret government laboratories were
releasing details of a new radar that could track movements of
people through stone walls, etc., that they might have even more
startling technology at their fingertips.
  What a crock! To suggest that people who are willing to sacrifice
their own integrity and moral values in order to assassinate others
for our benefit would then turn around and subject their own 
citizens to the same self-serving, arbitrary atrocities is nothing
more than the ranting of anarchistic lunatics.
[LUNATICS! DON'T _USE_ THAT WORD! I DON'T _LIKE_ THAT WORD! IT MAKES
 ME WANT TO.....AAARRRGGGHHHHH!]

  Thank you, I'm feeling much better, now...

TruthMonger






From rh at dev.null  Sun Nov 23 02:41:23 1997
From: rh at dev.null (Robert Heidegger)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:41:23 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <a0c766cd7eac94b862b5202e12d07b45@squirrel>
Message-ID: <3478043D.5E0A@dev.null>



Tim May wrote:
> Your moralizing
> reminds me of Detweiler, who had an unnatural fixation on me and my exact
> words and how my words were torturing him and on and on.

  More foolish speculation on Tim's part, as well as a shoddy 
attempt to associate my eloquent missives with the mad ramblings
of Detweiler.

  As for Tim's grandoise claims of my having an "unatural fixation,"
on him, my stalking of him and my use of binoculars and electronic
devices to monitor him have proven well worthwhile in helping to 
gain the information needed to expose him for what he is (although I
am afraid I cannot share this information with anyone without violating
the confidential integrity of the stalker-victim relationship.) 

  An "unnatural fixation" is revealed by more personal and sick,
twisted habits, such as Bill Stewart using his Eudora software
to filter Toto's posts to a special directory he projects onto
an overhead screen during his sexual orgies with farm animals.
(Pictures to follow...)
  I am astounded that Bill as much as admitted so on the list,
much as I was astounded when Tim announced that he would be
murdering Jim Bell's judge on Friday, at 4 p.m.

	Cheers,
		Bad BobbyH






From sm at dev.null  Sun Nov 23 02:59:13 1997
From: sm at dev.null (SpookMaster)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:59:13 +0800
Subject: Anti-Grav?
In-Reply-To: <19971123.080313.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <34780A28.1EDC@dev.null>



Attila T. Hun wrote:
>     there are at least 300 projects on cold fusion running... and one
>     plausible explanation which I am aware of.  also, look at the other
>     end --politics continues the Princeton ring, while the LLL Shiva
>     project has not been metioned for several years.  go figure.

Attila,
  Nice try, but few are likely to believe the obvious lies of an
anti-social psychopath who tore a page out of a phone book at
a public telephone booth in southern Utah on Jan. 3rd, 1997.
  Neither are the Cypherpunks list members likely to listen to
the ludicrous claims made by Tim May (who wipes his ass with
his left hand), Willam Geiger III (who has an unmatched blue
sock in his bottom, right-hand dresser drawer), or Dimitri Vulis,
whose name I have thrown into the mix merely to denigrate the
reputations of the others by guilt through association.

The SWAT team piling into the armored vans at this very moment
*love* this list!

SpookMasterMonger






From esoftware at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 23 19:03:42 1997
From: esoftware at hotmail.com (esoftware at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:03:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HERE IT IS!
Message-ID: <199711240303.VAA02087@dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com>


Hi,

Just wanted to pass along some info about a new piece of software I now call my 
"secret weapon" .  It's amazing!  Listen to this.....

Me and hundreds of others can now reach " millions of potential customers" - 
absolutely FREE!  A lot of us are creating immediate "cash flow explosions"
literally overnight!  And blowing our competition right out of the water!

You have to check this thing out.  To get some details, all you have to do is
call our fax on demand at: 213-960-7822 and you get the info faxed to you 
instantly.  Simple.

Take care. I'll talk to you later,
Kim






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Sun Nov 23 03:54:14 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:54:14 +0800
Subject: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971122172818.0c7f33ce@pop.mindspring.com>



At 11:28 AM 11/20/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>*********

>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1588,00.html

>The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
>November 20, 1997

>Copyrights and Wrongs
>By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

>     While you're cooling your heels in Club Fed, you'll
>have plenty of time to consider your misdeeds -- which in
>this case could have been making just three copies of Adobe
>Photoshop (cost: $389). The legislation covers anyone who
>copies compact discs, videocasettes or computer software
>worth at least $1,000. The No Electronic Theft Act, which
>President Clinton is expected to sign later this month,
>will be the first law in the history of the U.S. to
>imprison copiers looking to save (not make) a few bucks.

        It is interesting that while almost the entire body of copyright
law deals with materials other then what is to be covered, the industry has
enough clout to get their's singled out for the first criminal penalties
for violation. 

        This leaves the bulk of copyrighted material, printed material,
photographs and the like open to being stolen as does nizkor for example. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Sun Nov 23 03:55:43 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:55:43 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971123050057.3ac79780@pop.mindspring.com>



At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).

>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border.

>And what would be wrong with this?

        Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
committing a crime. Once they have been deported they have stopped
committing the crime and then they can plead to appear in court. 

-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov 23 05:34:58 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:34:58 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711231326.HAA07091@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:39:06 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
> Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)

> Homework is for wimps. :-). I work from memory almost all of the time, and
> everything I say here can be classified as my opinion, and nothing else.
> Most of the things I state as fact are correct, when you root around on
> them a bit, like Choate did with the Great Awakening stuff.

It's a pity you weren't right though, the 50 year gap in your memory pretty
much blows your assertion as well as your reputation to hell.

Homework may be for wimps, but they're successful wimps.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






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From: listserv_remove at homepublishing.com (D. Reynolds)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:47:17 +0800
Subject: FREE DEMO! Submit Your Web Site To Over 600 Search Engines.
Message-ID: <HMPB81764C34@homepublishing.com>



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From kent at songbird.com  Sun Nov 23 06:51:03 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:51:03 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <a0c766cd7eac94b862b5202e12d07b45@squirrel>
Message-ID: <19971123063843.37732@songbird.com>



On Sat, Nov 22, 1997 at 10:59:19PM -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
[...]
> I find this particularly interesting in light of my treatment on this list
> the past week or so. I point out that Tim threatens a federal judge, and
> all shriek apostasy. I never knew there was cypherpunk orthodoxy until now.

Get used to it.  I described the cryptoanarchy cult some months ago
(check the archives).  The result was a hilarious chorus of letters 
assuring me how unique and individualistic cryptoanarchists were.  

"...lost in a twisty maze of little passages, all alike".

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 23 08:19:28 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:19:28 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <3478043D.5E0A@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Jgomge18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Robert Heidegger <rh at dev.null> writes:
> Tim May wrote:
> > Your moralizing
> > reminds me of Detweiler, who had an unnatural fixation on me and my exact
> > words and how my words were torturing him and on and on.
>
>   More foolish speculation on Tim's part, as well as a shoddy
> attempt to associate my eloquent missives with the mad ramblings
> of Detweiler.

I have great respect for Detweiller.  LD is kewl.  You're no Detweiller,
Bobby, and neither is Timmy.

>   As for Tim's grandoise claims of my having an "unatural fixation,"
> on him, my stalking of him

I agree with Timmy on this one. Your fixation on Timmy is unnatural.

>   An "unnatural fixation" is revealed by more personal and sick,
> twisted habits, such as Bill Stewart using his Eudora software
> to filter Toto's posts to a special directory he projects onto
> an overhead screen during his sexual orgies with farm animals.

Proof, please.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 23 08:20:41 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:20:41 +0800
Subject: Junior Jim Bells in Training
In-Reply-To: <v03102811b09d4faf6463@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <s3Nmge17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May <tcmay at got.net> writes:

> At 7:25 AM -0700 10/28/97, Eric Cordian wrote:
> >Two more future cypherpunks added to the list of people who will
> >someday "McVeigh" Washington, DC.
> >
> >I'm surprised sending a flame to one of our elected leadership's
> >public email addresses is not already a death penalty offense.
> >
>
> Given the ease with which relatively good forgeries can be made, I'm
> surprised more people have not had their enemies harassed by forging such
> threats in the names of their enemies.
>
> (Vulis, Toto, Detweiler...don't get any ideas.)

This reminds me of a very unpleasant person named Peter Vorobieff
who pissed me off and subsequently posted numerous Usenet articles
detailing how he hates Jews and wants to help the Arabs get the
a-bomb and to poison Israeli water supply with radioactive isotopes.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 23 08:22:20 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:22:20 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09d6e2dcfcf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <uqNmge16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May <tcmay at got.net> writes:
> I'm happy doing what I'm doing. I think I do it pretty well, Certainly
> better than learning C or C++ and becoming YACC (Yet Another C Coder). No
> insult to C coders, but at age 45, after making a bundle of money doing
> physics and AI,  and retiring eleven years ago, I hardly think training
> myself at this point to be a C journeyman is what I want to do with my life.

Let's take an inventory of what Tiny Timmy can contribute to our cause:
* capital
* ability to spec out projects and figure out what needs to be done
He lacks:
* time
* C coding skills
* understanding of non-RSA cryptography (such as elliptic curves)
Here's an idea. Suppose you want a certain program to be written and
made available for free.  Spec out the design and offer to pay a few
thousand dollars for someone to code it and post it.
Put your money where your mouth it, Tiny Timmy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From jim at acm.org  Sun Nov 23 08:41:20 1997
From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:41:20 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <34785A53.4F80CE4A@acm.org>



Kent Crispin says:
> Get used to it.  I described the cryptoanarchy cult some months ago
> (check the archives).  The result was a hilarious chorus of letters
> assuring me how unique and individualistic cryptoanarchists were.

*I'm* not.

--
        Jim Gillogly
        Highday, 3 Foreyule S.R. 1997, 16:28
        12.19.4.12.11, 7 Chuen 9 Ceh, Eighth Lord of Night








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 23 08:51:56 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:51:56 +0800
Subject: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971122172818.0c7f33ce@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <56omge19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf at mindspring.com> writes:

>         This leaves the bulk of copyrighted material, printed material,
> photographs and the like open to being stolen as does nizkor for example.

Nizkor are criminals in many other ways as well.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 23 09:58:46 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:58:46 +0800
Subject: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971122172818.0c7f33ce@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b09e0cfb1f42@[207.167.93.63]>



At 5:32 AM -0700 11/23/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:

>        It is interesting that while almost the entire body of copyright
>law deals with materials other then what is to be covered, the industry has
>enough clout to get their's singled out for the first criminal penalties
>for violation.
>
>        This leaves the bulk of copyrighted material, printed material,
>photographs and the like open to being stolen as does nizkor for example.

I mentioned this point back when I was on the Cyberia-l list a few years ago.

Some of the law professors on the list were complaining that their
copyright rights were being violated by the quoting or forwarding of
articles.

And the major newspapers were sending out threatening letters, which were
generally heeded by the "offenders."

Well, what about _my_ stuff? (More generally, anybody's stuff.)

Why  does Professor Joe Shmoe or "The New Attleboro Times" have a greater
claim to "copyright violations" than Fred Nobody?

This is a semi-rhetorical question, as it mostly involves who is willing to
hire a lawyer to enforce such property claims. But, as M. Frieden notes,
the deck is stacked in favor of large newspapers, publishers, and even
professional authors, and is stacked against private individuals and lesser
authors gaining access to the courts.

"Some copyrights are more equal than others."

(Personally, I don't really believe in copyrights.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From remailer at htp.org  Sun Nov 23 10:05:26 1997
From: remailer at htp.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 02:05:26 +0800
Subject: The Great Awakening - Final Post (hopefully)
Message-ID: <19971123175500.10793.qmail@nsm.htp.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>Then you should go back and read them some more. In fact, if you still have
>the originals they include in the header the URL where I got the data from.
>Take the 10 minutes and go over and take a look at them. All three were
>related to religous revivalism in one form or another. The 1st (which
>itself some consider to be the second occurance of a previous movement
>as indicated in the title) did not occur in the 1800's which was the
>original precis that somebody threw out

Bob Hettinga said it was in the 1800's.  You said you thought it started in 
the 1500's, going no later than the early 1700's.  Bob retorted that he 
thought you were confusing the Renaissance with the Great Awakening.  I
chimed in by quoting Norton's Anthology which stated that the period was
in the early 18th century.  Take 10 minutes to "check the archives."  

>I did some looking around as well and other then Norton, yourself, and
>whoever it was that made the original claim all references I can find to
>the Great Awakening refer to the 1700-1750 event(s) as the first one to
>occur in the America's. If I can find my Norton Anthology I'll take a
>look at it, though it is 15+ years old.

If you look back at my post, you will see that this is what I (and Norton) 
were claiming.  The early eighteenth century = the early 1700's!  Read my
first post which included the quote from Norton's Anthology.

In other words, we both agree that the Great Awakening ended by the middle
of the eighteenth century (a.k.a., 1700's), not the middle of the nineteenth
century (a.k.a., 1800's) as Bob was claiming.

>> >Subject: 1st Great Awakening
>> [...]
>> > X-within-URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/html/great_awakening.html
>
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >    The Great Awakening (Second Turning, 1727-1746) began as a spiritual
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Second Turning" has to due with the cyclical theory that the authors of the 
web page you cited have written about.  The fact is that they refer to that 
time period (early 1700's/18th c.) as the Great Awakening, not the Second 
Great Awakening.  If you read the other pages at the site *more carefully* 
you will see that they were stuffing the Great Awakening into their theory 
under the category named the Second Turning (out of four, thus the site's 
name: fourthturning.com).

Notice your Subject: line says 1st Great Awakening, but that you're using the
parenthetically referenced Second Turning as a justification to contradict
what I (and you) have been saying all along.  What's going on here?

How can we have any meaningful discussion on this list when we don't pay any
attention to what we are writing or what others wrote?

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNHTymeFWwZe05jcJAQGyswf+PhJIbFZlR7om8rWF6dogcsJf25bz9mHo
OHj5k0j7RuEzx0s2j17Ico2ZckWOAdVhwg1fv9AWo4om1lUmysxpqTUHineJk3M2
A2Mw+Y9ogMps1V9nrrVsGmDswKulmBMA222XT8v6Si0X3r4D19qgSRqgH4rs8qs2
as51/AqxEeayx+Yphskys0HsU8ZjY/4w76dZP/TbakwWT+R5V4Yx3yQkcnsxh+iR
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=GaMe
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 ^^^^
Dig that!






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Sun Nov 23 10:49:56 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 02:49:56 +0800
Subject: Influence as a voter
In-Reply-To: <FJ1Lge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199711231837.MAA00619@manifold.algebra.com>



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> others not to :-). You don't have a choice about paying taxes to
> pay for the horrible public schools / socialized medicine and your
> influence as a voter ain't worth shit.

Dimitri, some time ago there was a vote on a certain soc.culture.* 
newsgroup.

As you know, the group passed, but if there was one YES vote less than
the number cast, the group would not pass.

That one vote came from you (thank you). Do you think that your influence
in the vote was not worth shit? I think not.

	- Igor.






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov 23 11:41:08 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 03:41:08 +0800
Subject: My last comment on Great Awakening...
Message-ID: <199711231941.NAA07844@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

It has been claimed that the original claim by Bob and anonymous was that
the first Great Awakening ended by the late 18'th century. This is a
complete fabrication. The original claim put forth clearly references dates
in the 1800's as the date of the first instance, clearly 50-100 years in
error from the original Great Awakening that occurred between 1700-1750. In
my original posting I (thought) made it clear that I didn't quite know when
the original event occurred but was certain it ended prior to the late
1700's which would clearly pre-date the original claim. I subsequently took
the time to provide references for those citation and clearly indicated
where my memory was in error, and even took the time to explain my confusion
regarding the 'Beacon on the Hill' movement. In responce Bob and apparently
anonymous made it clear that they saw no reason to do 'homework'
irrespective of the impact of historical accuracy on their claims.

Make up your own mind on the validity of the claims.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 23 12:01:29 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:01:29 +0800
Subject: Boys, 13, charged with E-mail threat to Hillary
Message-ID: <199711231950.UAA11644@basement.replay.com>




Sunday, November 23, 1997 - 20:40:28 MET

>From the Orange County Register:

	Two 13-year-old boys are charged with 
sending a threatening e-mail message over the 
Internet to Hillary Rodham Clinton.
	Contents of the electronic mail message 
to the first lady haven't been released, but U.S.
 Secret Service agents are expected to outline 
themn during a hearing Monday in Juvenile Court 
in Cordova, Tenn.
	The youngsters, charged with threatening
 and harassing Mrs. Clinton, could face a fine, 
counseling, community service or detention.       






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 23 12:01:37 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:01:37 +0800
Subject: Influence as a voter
In-Reply-To: <199711231837.MAA00619@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <0a1mge22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > others not to :-). You don't have a choice about paying taxes to
> > pay for the horrible public schools / socialized medicine and your
> > influence as a voter ain't worth shit.
>
> Dimitri, some time ago there was a vote on a certain soc.culture.*
> newsgroup.
>
> As you know, the group passed, but if there was one YES vote less than
> the number cast, the group would not pass.
>
> That one vote came from you (thank you). Do you think that your influence
> in the vote was not worth shit? I think not.

Since that time, the news.groups voting process has become even more corrupt.
When the skirvins and the isleys want to pass (or not pass) a newsgroup,
they just make up votes from nonexistant addresses as needed.

I'm sure if it weren't for my YES vote, the UVV would have forged a YES
vote from someone else.  In fact, I have a strong suspicion that the UVV
either made up or discarded some YES votes to make it look like the
proposal passed by a single vote.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Nov 23 12:34:24 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:34:24 +0800
Subject: Russ Alberry/CAUCE vs. the Cypherpunks (was: Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauc
In-Reply-To: <64pmr8$b4j@smash.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <19971123202001.27996.qmail@nym.alias.net>



mindspring.com> <slrn676p9b.728.ichudov at manifold.algebra.com> <m3hg981owi.fsf at w

Russ Allbery <rra at stanford.edu> wrote:

> * I am specifically pissed at Igor about trolling for votes on random
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   newsgroups and on Cypherpunks.  I am not pissed at him for disliking
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^
>   the moderation policy; he's entirely entitled to dislike the moderation
>   policy and vote accordingly.
>   
> * If he keeps trolling for votes on Cypherpunks to defeat random
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   moderated group proposals he doesn't happen to like for one reason or
>   another, I'll keep doing what I can to counter his propaganda campaigns
>   (and judging from this result, I think it's fairly obvious that he'll
>   continue losing and may in fact help a few groups *pass* that wouldn't
>   have otherwise just by being as annoying as he was this time).

In what sense are you using the word "trolling"?  Are you saying that the
mention of a proposal to ban anonymity is considered "trolling" when posted
amongst a group of pro-privacy, pro-anonymity individuals such as the
Cypherpunks?  Or are you objecting, in general, to the mention of a proposal
to ANY group that's not likely to favor it?

Why should a proposal to require the disclosure of a poster's e-mail address
(and its contribution to the address harvesters) as a pre-requisite to 
express an opinion not itself be fully disclosed and discussed?  Were you
counting on slipping that rule through unnoticed?

Why is publicly disagreeing with you considered a "propaganda campaign"?
Why should the C.A.U.C.E. brand of propaganda be the only variety allowed?

When I first heard of the C.A.U.C.E., my initial thought was that it was a 
good idea.  Finally a means to fight back against the spammers.  Now I'm 
starting  to wonder what sort of agenda is driving some of these illogical
anti-privacy requirements.  As bad as spam and UCE has become, one does have 
to make sure that each proposed cure isn't worse than the disease itself.  
For example, you *COULD* remedy the problem of criminals carrying concealed 
weapons by requiring everyone to walk the streets naked...

--






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Nov 23 12:35:44 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:35:44 +0800
Subject: Belinda Bryan's Defense of Gary "Sadaam" Burnore (was: Re: Keman the K
In-Reply-To: <347d10bb.32754853@news.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19971123202000.14607.qmail@nym.alias.net>



eridani+spam at netcom.com (Belinda Bryan) wrote:
       ^^^^^

> X-No-Archive: yes

Clever.  You and Gary demand "proof" of what you've said in the past, then you
attempt to conceal the very evidence you're demanding like this.  It figures.
Nothing like this, coupled with repeated false claims of "forgery", to give 
your posts a little "plausible deniability", is there?

> Organization: Boycott E-Scrub Technologies. The owner is an admitted spambaiter.

Your obsessive disinformation campaign continues, I see...

[...]

> >>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:54:33 GMT, eguy at mindspring.com (Eric Guy) wrote:
> >>The account is closed.  Find something ELSE to be obsessed about.
> >                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >Take your own fucking advice. Get off Ron Guilmette's back.
> > You posted his ten year old tax lien.
>  
> Public information.  Just like all those "public" email addresses rfg
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> posted of users of ISPS who didn't meet his standards.  Tit for tat.

Well, if posting public information is OK, then why the hate campaign against 
Ron Guilmette and his business for (allegedly) doing like you and Gary did?

Actually, either you're lying now about the reason that Gary posted the info
back in February, or Gary was lying back then when he said: "What say each 
time you slam DataBasix for no reason, we post some publicly available 
information about monkeys.com.  HEre's the first try" and "More where this 
came from. Yu wanna keep slamming DataBasix for no good reason?". [1]  That 
sounds like an attempt at censorship through intimidation to me.  After you 
pull stunts like that is it any wonder that people post their opinions 
anonymously?  The more you attack anonymous remailers and their users, the
more people will see the benefit of utilizing them.

> Life's a bitch that way, ain't it? 
           ^^^^^

No, LIFE isn't, but, OTOH ...

> > You mail bombed him and tried syn flooding without success.
>  
> THAT'S A VICIOUS LIE.  POST THE GODDAMN PROOF OR SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Now I'm beginning to see why you weren't able to convince Jeff Burchell that
you were a "lawyer" for DataBasix when you tried the Scientology-esque stunt
of demanding that he turn all of his (non-existent) user logs over to
DataBasix to use in their witch hunt against the users of his remailer. [2] 
Going on a tantrum like that in a courtroom would get you jailed for 
contempt of court.

I see you haven't changed your typical DataBasix tactics of demanding proof
from others, but never bothering to offer any for your own accusations.  Like
the accusations that Ron Guilmette "spam baited" addresses at databasix.com.
(The only thing you've posted that even looked like evidence was some idle
talk about netcom.com addresses.)  Or how about that claim that Mr. Guilmette
supposedly "abused" an unnamed "teenage girl" at DataBasix?
 
> > These days you looking for more blood. Find someone else to be obsessed
> > about. Asshole. 
>  
> Jesus, cretins like you give *responsible* people posting anonymously a
> bad name.  As do those such as the delta sub-moron who forged my
> former [1] email address in the Reply to: line of an obscene Usenet
> post.

As far as giving anonymous posters a bad name, since when have you EVER
had anything decent or civil to say about those who don't believe that 
setting one's self up for abuse should be the price of free speech?  Calling
anonymous posters "anon assholes" only betrays your pernicious bigotry and
hatred of those who dare to speak their minds without subjecting themselves
to the revenge that seems to (coincidentally?) befall those who dare to
criticize the almighty Sadaam Burnore.

As far as "delta sub-morons" engaging in "forgery" (assuming they aren't your
fellow "delta sub-morons" on the DataBasix gang) what about all the crude
attempts at forgery involving the e-mail addresses of those who've dared to
publicly disagree with Gary Burnore and his DataBasix wrecking crew?  What
about the letters in various MMF and MLM NGs saying "I have a lot of money
to invest, please send me information on how I can get rich quick" and
purportedly signed by these folks?  I must have missed your vehement
protests about that.
 
> You aren't worth the bother anymore.
>  
> *PLONK*

Did anyone force you to post THIS tantrum?  Don't let the door strike your 
posterior on the way out.
 
> [1] former because I had to close the account when it become completely
> unusable, thanks to some anonymous cretin who (a) used the address as
> spambait several *thousand* times and (b) subscribed me to every
> freaking html-ized newsletter in existence.

Once again, you post accusations without proof.  (Maybe I ought to do my
DataBasix impression of you and Sadaam Burnore stomping your feet and 
chanting in unison, "Not a shred of evidence! Not a shred of evidence!")
You can only say "I didn't do it, nobody saw me doing it, and you can't
prove a thing" so often.

Your post no evidence that such alleged abuse even occurred, nor that, *IF* it
did occur, it was perpetrated by someone other than you or one of your fellow 
abusers at DataBasix, perhaps as a pretext to get a remailer shut down.  If by 
your "former e-mail address" you're referring to an account at DataBasix.com,
could the real reason be that Gary is so technically inept that he has been
unable to get the databasix.com domain up and running after his hasty exodus
from California to North Carolina?  At least that's been his alibi -- "I
couldn't have posted any spam bait - databasix.com is still down".
 
Your whining is so hypocritical, anyway.  Where were those protests when your
fellow staffer at DataBasix, William J. McClatchie (aka "Wotan"), was busy
making THOUSANDS of e-mail addresses useless when he went on his successful
campaign to get the Mailmasher server shut down?  (Remember the bogus 
"forgery" charges and the pitiful "evidence" that was posted?)

> P.S.  Fix your goddamn line wrap.

Why?  You claim to have "plonked" him/her....

Why not just fix your newsreader?

--
Since Belinda likes to footnote her posts:

[1] http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com/HTML-1997-11/msg00529.html
[2] http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 23 12:39:42 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:39:42 +0800
Subject: The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122175619.006aeb1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <1H3mge23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



John Young <jya at pipeline.com> writes:

> Dimitri confessed:
>
> >Above Tom's restaurant, on 112th and Broadway.  I worked for 7 years upstair
> >from that restaurant in a very secret organization.  I'm socked they even
> >show that building on TV. :-)
>
> You bet, that secret org is well-known among CU pick-up artists as
> a swell place to pick up socks ...  well, more than that and sudden
> death's your next shock.

Columbia University's campus map shows it as the 'Armstrong Building'.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov 23 12:44:29 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:44:29 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711232043.OAA08112@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:02:01 +0100 (MET)
> From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> Subject: Further Costs of War

Hi Monty,

I have a couple of questions...

> A few more comments on World War II.
> 
> Had World War II been prevented, along with deaths of 50 million or so
> people, we would also have been spared (in the United States) income
> tax withholding.  Previously the only people paying income tax were
> fairly wealthy and there was no withholding.

Any particular methodology you might care to share on stopping WWII?
Being an avid amateur historian concerning WWII I am very much interested in
any insight you might have.

As to taxation and withholding:

 
			       ARTICLE XVI. 
 
	The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on 
incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the 
several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. 
[25 February 1913.] 
 
Notice the date of implimentation, considerably before WWII, it is in fact
the year before the US became involved in WWI. Perhaps you meant WWI instead
of WWII? Citizens of the US have been paying taxes since 1914.

> I doubt very much that income tax withholding would have been accepted
> if the War were not used to justify it.  ("You don't want to pay
> taxes?  What are you, a traitor?")

What war? The taxes came about because of issues other than fighting a war
which hadn't even happened yet.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Nov 23 12:50:33 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:50:33 +0800
Subject: Another Anti-Privacy Bigot Heard From (was: The Guilmette/Burnore deba
In-Reply-To: <slrn67eevb.fjb.sjsobol@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <19971123204001.21381.qmail@nym.alias.net>



sjsobol at devel.nacs.net (Steve Sobol) wrote:

> So my challenge to the people posting anonymously is to either go away, or
> find some balls and post non-anonymously. I know this won't happen, as much
> of the stuff being said is rather libelous and can get the poster into a lot
> of legal trouble, but hey, if any of the cowards involved would *like* to
> reveal themselves...

If you'd like to expose ... er, I mean "reveal" yourself, be my guest. <g>

But knock off the bigotry -- anonymous posters are not going to be relegated
to the back of the bus just because some control freak is annoyed by hearing 
things with which he disagrees posted by people that he can't identify.  
You're merely chanting the same line we've all heard over and over -- 
"unless you have something to hide, you won't mind my snooping and meddling 
in every aspect of your life".

Threats of "a lot of legal trouble" for speaking one's mind are nothing new.  
But the tort of libel requires that the information be FALSE.  There's a 
difference between something being libellously false and merely being 
embarassingly true.  And, of course, the burden of proof is on the person 
making the charge.

--






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Nov 23 12:55:02 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:55:02 +0800
Subject: Sadaam Burnore Strikes Again (was: Re: Keman the Klueless Strikes
In-Reply-To: <347d10bb.32754853@news.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19971123204001.2705.qmail@nym.alias.net>



gburnore+spam at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
        ^^^^^
        
No thanks, Gary.  I'll avoid your added spam.

> X-No-Archive: yes

Cute, Gary.  Hide the evidence, then challenge people later on to produce it.
 
> : Gary L. Burnore <gburnore at netcom.com> wrote:
> :    
> : > X-Rfg-Is-An-Asshole: yes
> :  
> : What follows ought to be really objective, right?
> :  
> : > : >The account is closed.  Find something ELSE to be obsessed about.
> : > :                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> : > 
> : > : Take your own fucking advice. Get off Ron Guilmette's back.
> : > 
> : > Why?
> : >
> : > : You posted his ten year old tax lien.
> : >
> : > Yup, that's right. Just as he said: It's public information, already
> : > available to the public so it's Ok to post (Referring to email addresses
> : > of NETCOM customers.  Ron Guilmette's own words.
> :
> : OK, so you both posted "public information", but you're justified for doing
> : so, but Ron was not?  Aren't you the hypocrite who was spouting off about
> : "two wrongs don't make a right"?
> :
> : So if he was right for what he (supposedly) did, what's your problem?  Why
> : the ongoing vendetta?  And if he was wrong, then you were, too!
> :
> : > : You mail bombed him and tried syn flooding without success.
> : >
> : > Of course you have no _EVIDENCE_ of any of this. From where did i syn
> : > flood? From where did I mailbomb?
> : >
> : > If I did these terrible things and you err... ron, have proof, why not
> : > show that to my provider.  Again, which provider? When and where am I
> : > supposed to have done this from? WHERES THE EVIDENCE?
> :
> : And where's the evidence for all of the fanciful charges you've made
> : against Ron?  Where's the proof, for example, that he "abused" an alleged,
> : unnamed, "teenage girl" at DataBasix, as you've charged?
>  
> Where's the proof that I accused him of abusing someone? You have none because
> there is none.

You're so sure that just because you hide all your posts behind that 
"X-No-Archive" header and had DejaNews remove all of your old posts from their 
archives that no one can hold you accountable for the numerous false charges
you've made in the past?  Maybe you can find a job cataloging video tapes of
campaigning fund-raising events for the White House.  Your selective memory
might be put to good use, there.  <g>

Perhaps you've conveniently forgotten about this accusation you posted:

> Subject:      Cowards                                    
> From:         gburnore at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore)
> Date:         1997/02/18
> Message-ID:   <gburnoreE5rxEF.F3n at netcom.com>
> Sender:       gburnore at netcom22.netcom.com
> Organization: the home office in Wazoo, NE
> Newsgroups:   news.admin.net-abuse.misc
>  
>  
> [ Article crossposted from news.admin.net-abuse.email ]
> [ Author was Gary L. Burnore (gburnore at netcom.com) ]
> [ Posted on Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:26:02 GMT ]
>  
> So now the cowards in Ronald Francis's corner (I'm outright expecting the
> culprit to be ronald francis himself) have taken to sending email to
> those who have names listed on databasix's web page.  Sending comments to
> a 17 year old that they're going to tell her mother that she's having an
> affair with me.  Telling her mother that I'm molesting her daughter.
> Having all sorts of fun.
>  
>  
> Well OK Ronald Francis.  You win. You were right. It _IS_ ok to send a
> list of names of those who annoy you to UCE sites causing those who annoy
> you grief.  I see it a lot differently now. You were right.  BTW, as soon
> as I find the connection between these posts, those from wazoo.com, those
> from mailmasher.com and YOU ronnie, it'll all be reported to law inforcement.
>    
> -- 
> gburnore at databasix.com                       mailto:gburnore at databasix.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>          I spilled spot remover on my dog.  Now I can't find him.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary L. Burnore                       |  �۳�ݳ޳�ݳ�۳�ݳ޳�ݳݳ޳�ݳ��۳
> DataBasix                             |  �۳�ݳ޳�ݳ�۳�ݳ޳�ݳݳ޳�ݳ��۳
> San Francisco, CA                     |  �۳�ݳ޳�ݳ�۳�ݳ޳�ݳݳ޳�ݳ��۳
>                                       |  �۳ 3 4 1 4 2  ݳ޳ 6 9 0 6 9 �۳
> http://www.databasix.com              |     Official Proof of Purchase
> ===========================================================================
>    
> --
> gburnore at databasix.com                       mailto:gburnore at databasix.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                          <-- Invisable Sig
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary L. Burnore                       |  �۳�ݳ޳�ݳ�۳�ݳ޳�ݳݳ޳�ݳ��۳
> DataBasix                             |  �۳�ݳ޳�ݳ�۳�ݳ޳�ݳݳ޳�ݳ��۳
> San Francisco, CA                     |  �۳�ݳ޳�ݳ�۳�ݳ޳�ݳݳ޳�ݳ��۳
>                                       |  �۳ 3 4 1 4 2  ݳ޳ 6 9 0 6 9 �۳
> http://www.databasix.com              |     Official Proof of Purchase
> ===========================================================================

In fact, just to really smear Ron, you posted the article twice.  The
second copy was identified as follows:

> Message-ID:   <gburnoreE5rxJ6.FFt at netcom.com>

This allegation was based on a supposed anonymous message to an anonymous
"victim" at DataBasix, and people are supposed to believe that Ron Guilmette
was responsible for it despite that you've posted, to borrow your own words,
"not a shred of evidence".

--






From 0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 23 12:58:05 1997
From: 0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM (Michael Wilson)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:58:05 +0800
Subject: Iraq and computers
Message-ID: <01IQD2KOFMHCAUT4XW@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>



As you see from the news bit attached, I wonder if we'll need to worry
about 'disk escrow,' or perhaps a requirement that disks be of an
unusually large size (thus making them easier to detect), or a requirement
for diskless machines...
MW
http://www.7pillars.com/

   ________________________________________________________________________
                                       
             Iraq reportedly hiding arms data on U.S.-made computers
  ____________________________________________________________________________
                                        
      Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
      Copyright ) 1997 Reuters
      
   WASHINGTON (November 23, 1997 02:35 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - To
   conceal its deadliest arms from U.N. weapons inspectors, Iraq has
   increasingly turned to U.S.-made computers sold in Baghdad since the end
   of the 1991 Gulf War in violation of international sanctions, the Los
   Angeles Times reported in its Sunday editions.
   
   Quoting U.S. officials and U.N. diplomats, the newspaper said that Iraqi
   scientists and defense officials are using Western-made computers to
   transfer data from bulky papers to small disks that can be easily
   dispersed, making the information difficult for inspectors to track.
   
   In addition, they are using computers for research and development in
   the four categories specifically forbidden under the U.N. resolution
   ending the war -- nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and
   long-range missiles.
   
   U.N. sources did not disclose the brands or quantity of U.S.-made
   computers, except to say they make up a significant percentage of what
   was in use in Iraq, the paper said.
   
   "There are not garden-variety computers that you can go down to Radio
   Shack and buy," the paper said, quoting a former U.S. diplomat. "This
   requires specialized equipment and programs only available in certain
   places.
   
   Most of the U.S. equipment was probably purchased through third parties
   to circumvent U.S. companies' more rigorous monitoring of such illegal
   sales, U.N. and U.S. sources said, according to the newspaper.
   
   The use of high-tech equipment underscored how Baghdad continued to keep
   data beyond the reach of the United Nations, the paper said, adding that
   President Saddam Hussein's regime was widely suspected of using the
   three-week gap while U.N. inspectors were out of the country to further
   disperse data on disks.
   
   The use of computers also reflected the way Iraq used its limited
   sources to modernize its military capability rather than address
   humanitarian issues, U.S. and U.N. officials said, according to the
   report.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov 23 13:20:20 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:20:20 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <32dea1912a187624aca30f2cee100755@anon.efga.org>



Robert Hettinga wrote:
>...people are out there, right now, writing code instead of...

To which Tim May replied:
>Spare us the "writing code instead of" appeals to some sort of
>guilt.

Cypherpunks write code for computers.  Tim May writes code for
cypherpunks.







From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Nov 23 13:43:08 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:43:08 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <v0400272bb09d562b7c91@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v04002744b09e08a183b1@[139.167.130.248]>



<Nice to see I'm back out of TCM's killfile. He apparently figured out he
can run, etc.>


At 12:41 am -0500 on 11/23/97, Tim May lobs a low, slow one, right over the
plate:

> Oh, and as for your typically Hettingian "writing code instead of putting a
> few hundred rounds a week through their ARs and Glocks" insult, you'd be
> surprised to know who I ran into at the Los Altos Gun Range this afternoon.
> And to think he was shooting an AR when he could have been coding "for the
> Cause"!

Actually, <insult> ya yutz </insult> :-), it's exactly *why* I wrote it, if
you notice the time of my posting.

Shooting is a good skill to have. I wish I had it myself. However, I have a
lot more respect for Vinnie, putting in practice at the range -- a firearms
instructor who shoots not only for self protection, but because he likes it
*and* is good at it (as you probably noticed) -- than I do for you, someone
who's on the verge of joining a militia somewhere, though not because
you're shooting per se. There's a difference between being ready for a
confrontation involving gunfire and going out and causing one, which you
clearly seem to be trying to do lately. The former is good sense. The
second is, of course, the act of a loon -- oops, "Freedom Fighter".

Interestingly, those people who are most interested in starting a
revolution are also the people who want to be in charge when the revolution
is over. cf., Townsend's "Don't get fooled again", and Radovan Karadzic. Is
that *you*, Tim?...

Nawwww...


If attacked under the proper conditions, like, say, at Concord, fighting is
a real good idea. :-). If you read interviews with people at the time, and
not, say, 50 years later after several historical revisions, those folks
defended themselves more because an occupying army was marching up the road
straight at them, threatening their lives, limb and property, than for any
political consideration.

That and the fact that they actually had the military wherewithall to slow,
and apparently stop, that army. :-). Being a near-frontier society, where
people still used a, um, geodesic, force architecture :-) to fight bandits,
and had at least a memory of dealing with marauding indians that way, paid
off handsomely. Texas and the Texas Rangers were an analogous situation
with the Commanches, for instance.

Concord is clearly proof that Britain didn't understand that they couldn't
control America anymore and acted on that misinformation. It was *their*
problem, as the revolution bore out.


And, frankly, as a member of a congregation whose church was broken up for
firewood as a "nest of traitors" during the occupation of Boston, and,
having done some myself once in a while, I'm no stranger to the fun and
games of good old fashioned rabble-rousing, something this list seems to
excel at these days. But, the point is, if someone went out alone, in the
middle of, say, occupied Boston, and started shooting, they'd die, and
everyone would call them a fool. And, no, I don't think that modern
Corrolitos, much less Boston itself :-), is the equivalent of occupied, or
even pre-revolutionary war, Boston, either.


Finally, as far as code is concerned -- or even *talking* about
cryptographic technology and what it can do anymore -- the irony of what
*you* do all day, Tim, versus what Vinnie does, is of course, rather
immense.


I'll answer the rest of your post when it crawls to the top of the dreck
pile, like all the rest of them...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Nov 23 13:43:29 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:43:29 +0800
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711231326.HAA07091@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v04002746b09e4c56caaa@[139.167.130.248]>



At 8:26 am -0500 on 11/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:

<ZOT!>
> It's a pity you weren't right though, the 50 year gap in your memory pretty
> much blows your assertion as well as your reputation to hell.
</Z>

Don't you just love the smell of ozone in the morning?

:-). What? Me? Reputation? I *thought* I had one around here somewhere...


Anyway, I'm not so sure about your above assertion. We can quibble about
*which* great awakening it was I thought was the first one, of course, but
you yourself posted the facts which bore out what I was saying to my own
satisfaction, and, I'd bet way past what most anyone else around here who
cares about the discussion, would say, as well.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and cypherpunk rants?

> Homework may be for wimps, but they're successful wimps.

Yup. You're obvious evidence of that. Congratulations on all of your
accomplishments. Enjoy your smug self-satisfaction. Clearly you must have
earned it...

:-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From tm at dev.null  Sun Nov 23 13:54:38 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:54:38 +0800
Subject: Russ Alberry/CAUCE vs. the Cypherpunks (was: Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauc
In-Reply-To: <64pmr8$b4j@smash.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <3478A08B.72DE@dev.null>



lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
> 
> Russ Allbery <rra at stanford.edu> wrote:
> 
> > * I am specifically pissed at Igor about trolling for votes on                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >  random newsgroups and on Cypherpunks.

> In what sense are you using the word "trolling"?  Are you saying that the
> mention of a proposal to ban anonymity is considered "trolling" when posted
> amongst a group of pro-privacy, pro-anonymity individuals such as the
> Cypherpunks? 

  Sounds like he is only objecting to you discussing issues important
to you with groups you belong to and groups that you *don't* belong to.
  Sounds like Chelsea is pushing daddy's fascist agenda at Stanford.

> Why is publicly disagreeing with you considered a "propaganda campaign"?
> Why should the C.A.U.C.E. brand of propaganda be the only variety allowed?

  Because fickless ducks live in fear of individuals who threaten
their ability to hide under phantom security blankets.
  
> When I first heard of the C.A.U.C.E., my initial thought was that it was a
> good idea.  Finally a means to fight back against the spammers.  Now I'm
> starting  to wonder what sort of agenda is driving some of these illogical
> anti-privacy requirements.

  Often, it is just the result of people who come up with some inane
brainstorm that looks good on the surface, but are too intellectually
lazy to think it through and resent anyone who does so (thus destroying
their petty work of self-proclaimed 'genius'.
  The real losers end up doing a lot of campaigning to make up for the
insufficiency of their logic, under the delusion that getting as many
others as possible to jump on their bandwagon will somehow increase
their low level of self-esteem.

  Sounds to me like the dweeb is pissed because he had to do a lot
of blather-spamming to overcome the effects of Igor's rational
and balanced posts on the subject.
  Perhaps his next project could be to promote a vote on a new
value for 'pi'. 

TruthMonger






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 23 14:03:40 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:03:40 +0800
Subject: The hacker's friend
Message-ID: <199711232143.WAA24302@basement.replay.com>



http://cnet.com/Content/Features/Dlife/Inside/ss03.html

"Microsoft and Netscape insist that the W3C does produce truly open
standards, and that it's the only way to make sure the Web doesn't
dissolve into chaos."

  The W3C is also producing a "single point of failure" so that 
hackers will be able to concentrate their energies on gaining access
to *everything*.

Chaos==Anarchy==Freedom







From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Nov 23 14:54:17 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:54:17 +0800
Subject: Remailer Header Truncation?
Message-ID: <19971123224000.4644.qmail@nym.alias.net>



I've started to notice that in posts to Usenet involving a Mixmaster remailer 
and a mail2news gateway, the lines in the header were being truncated to 79
characters or less.  Is this limitation in the gateway software or in
Mixmaster itself?

--






From jongalt at pinn.net  Sun Nov 23 14:57:48 1997
From: jongalt at pinn.net (Jon Galt)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:57:48 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971123135313.334F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971123174103.24326D-100000@everest.pinn.net>



On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> ...  If the state has any business, it is
> to provide services that the comminaty as a whole needs or services where
> the market will not provide.  While churches (and other voluntary
> organizations) have there place I do not beleave that it is a universal
> solition.
> 
> Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.

Then I take it you have almost the exact same worries about contributing 
to churches as you have about "contributing" to government.

Reminds me of a short exchange I had with a co-worker a couple of years 
ago.  He had bought a lottery ticket (which I don't do), and it went like 
this:

I:  What are your chances of winning?
he:  What are *yours*?
I:  Not much different than yours!

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt at pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________






From jongalt at pinn.net  Sun Nov 23 15:05:30 1997
From: jongalt at pinn.net (Jon Galt)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:05:30 +0800
Subject: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971122194807.0070b75c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971123175138.24326E-100000@everest.pinn.net>



On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
(referring to Herr Comrade Bill Clinton)
> At least he's not yet arranging for people to become dead
> so they can be buried there.

Are you so certain of this?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt at pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sun Nov 23 15:25:58 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:25:58 +0800
Subject: Mondex help needed
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971124001555.20959A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



I just received one of the Chase Manhattan Mondex cards. Since I've been
doing a bit of work with smartcards lately
<https://www.cypherpunks.to/scard/>, I'd like to take an extended look at
this card.

The task would be much easier if I had one or several of the following:

o Mondex card Programer Reference Manual. Somebody on this list must have
access to one.
o Protocol specifications. Even partial specs would be helpful.
o Any PC software that talks RS-232 to a reader that is meant to hold a
Mondex card. And of course the reader. If the reader work with non-Mondex
cards, all the better, because that probably means that the reader is
generic and the commands can be reverse engineered and emulated.
o An RS-232 adapter to the PCMCIA sized reader that came with my Chase
Mondex card and associated PC software. The reader has a tiny connector on
the side meant to connect to a serial port adapter. Since this is a
Mondex-only reader, I am not sure how much of the intelligence resides in
the reader. Listening to the communication between the PC software and
this
particular reader may not provide much information.

Your help is much appreciated. Anonymous donations are accepted and
encouraged. 

Thanks,



-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From sunder at brainlink.com  Sun Nov 23 15:41:30 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:41:30 +0800
Subject: CyberCash response to: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971123183647.24644B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>





=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:08:28 -0500
From: Pat Farrell <pfarrell at CYBERCASH.COM>
To: BUGTRAQ at NETSPACE.ORG
Subject: CyberCash response to: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2

This message is going to bugtraq because I first heard of
the report from this list. I believe it is in the spirit of
the list's usage guidelines. Redistributed in accordance
to the terms below.

Other responses should be off list, directly to me.

Pat

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have been asked by Steve Crocker, CyberCash's Chief Technical Officer,
to post this message concerning security of CyberCash's software.

The following should appear in its entirety if it's printed at all.
Permission is granted to repost this message as long as the entire
message is reposted unaltered with the PGP signature intact.

Pat




The following message appeared on the net.
> === begin quoted message ===
>
>From: Anonymous <anon at ANON.EFGA.ORG>
>Subject:      Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2
>To: BUGTRAQ at NETSPACE.ORG
>
>CyberCash v. 2.1.2 has a major security flaw that causes all credit
>card information processed by the server to be logged in a file with
>world-readable permissions.  This security flaw exists in the default
>CyberCash installation and configuration.
>
>The flaw is a result of not being able to turn off debugging.  Setting
>the "DEBUG" flag to "0" in the configuration files simply has no
>effect on the operation of the server.
>
>In CyberCash's server, when the "DEBUG" flag is on, the contents of
>all credit card transactions are written to a log file (named
>"Debug.log" by default).
>
>The easiest workaround I've found is to simply delete the existing
>Debug.log file.  In my experience with the Solaris release, the
>CyberCash software does not create this file at start time when the
>DEBUG flag is set to 0.
>
>The inability to turn off debugging is noted on CyberCash's web site
>under "Known Limitations".  The fact that credit card numbers are
>stored in the clear, in a world readable file, is not.
>
> === end quoted message ===


We have taken this quite seriously and have put through a full release
of our software which will be available Monday 11/24 for three
platforms and others shortly thereafter. The flaw was in the
debug logging function, not in the protocols or core
implementation.  Nonetheless, the effect was an unnecessary
exposure of potentially sensitive information, and it shouldn't
have gone out the door that way.  We're tightening our internal
processes to avoid this in the future.

That said, here's the actual exposure.  The credit card information
that's in the clear in the log comes from "merchant-initiated"
transactions, which means the merchant obtains the credit
card number from somewhere -- phone, mail, fax, SSL-protected
Internet interaction, or unprotected Internet interaction.
The merchant thus has the same info in the clear already.

If the card number was provided via a wallet, then the card
number is blinded at the consumer's end.  It is therefore
not in the clear as it passes through the merchant's machine
and the reported exposure does not apply..

In order for the unprotected log to pose a risk of exposure,
someone has to be able to gain access to the merchant's machine.
If the machine is well protected, viz behind a firewall and/or
carefully configured, presumably an outsider won't be able to
gain access.  And in terms of the *additional* exposure the
open log represents over existing risks, if the same information
is accessible in the clear elsewhere on the machine, eliminating
from the log or encrypting the log provides little or no real
protection.  We continue to advise merchants to take strong steps
to protect their machines.

To our knowledge, the exposure documented above has not resulted
in the actual loss of any customer data or other security incident.


- ----------------------------------
Steve Crocker                                   Desk:  +1 703 716 5214
CyberCash, Inc.                                 Main:  +1 703 620 4200
2100 Reston Parkway                             Fax:   +1 703 620 4215
Reston, VA 20191                                crocker at cybercash.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNHfwF7CsmOInW9opAQHurAP+MPve2kBqh7Vtt6cMbzohCt2PTjaa6dl3
AzxTVPzgMPdGLB+pehGNxsxrlb/hQ07P3IqMaKcaKXs9O+7Av7ijaUGGkbWpbhEJ
Zy38iKpEsMIHe2vrLXyyjVbzorj/8f/OHEr28NbXjviSllyJlGzowgS0AXuFMLMt
lByJBsTAAS4=
=ZlLs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Pat Farrell    CyberCash, Inc.          w:(703) 715-7834
Senior Engineer                   pfarrell at cybercash.com
#include standard.disclaimer






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov 23 15:44:48 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:44:48 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199711232350.RAA09036@einstein.ssz.com>



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
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          WOMAN, 80, PUT OFF GREYHOUND BECAUSE OF BIRTHDAY-GIFT PUPPY
                                       
     woman with dog November 23, 1997
     Web posted at: 6:32 p.m. EST (2332 GMT)
     
     TAMPA, Florida (AP) -- The bus was a Greyhound, but the driver was
     no dog lover.
     
     An 80-year-old woman returning home from her birthday party was
     kicked off a bus at a rural truck stop late at night because of her
     birthday present: a tiny puppy named Cookie.
     
     Dogs aren't allowed on Greyhound and the driver refused to make an
     exception, leaving Antonia Sanabria at the side of the road about 80
     miles from home at 3 a.m. Friday.
     
     A security guard summoned by the bus driver called Marion County
     sheriff's deputies -- adding to her fright.
     
     "When the bus pulled away and I saw all those policemen I was
     scared," Sanabria said. "I thought they were going to put me in
     jail. I don't know, I was crazy with fear. I've never gone to jail."
     
     
     What could have quickly become a terrifying ordeal for the woman,
     who walks with a crutch and has trouble hearing and seeing, instead
     became an inspiration.
     
     After getting her a sandwich and something to drink, police from
     different jurisdictions teamed up to ferry Sanabria all the way from
     the Ocala area to her Tampa doorstep in five different patrol cars.
     
     "I've never seen so many people so nice with me -- an old lady. They
     gave me love, respect, attention," she said. "Love has a lot of
     names -- compassion, respect, friendliness."
     
     As soon as she got home, all Sanabria wanted to do was sleep, which
     she did with her new 7-week-old Pekinese pup.
     
     When she woke up she found a bouquet of roses with a card that read:
     "We want you to know there are still some nice people in the world,"
     from Hillsborough sheriff's deputies in Tampa who coordinated the
     relay.
     
     Greyhound apologized and gave her a refund on Saturday. The
     unidentified driver, a 20-year Greyhound veteran, was suspended
     pending an investigation.
     
     "It's unfortunate that a lady of this age and condition would have
     something like this happen to her in the middle of the night," said
     George Gravley, a Greyhound spokesman.
     
     Sanabria's daughter, Sally Creel of Panama City, was outraged,
     saying: "What a low-life thing to do."
     
     But after the police rescue, her mother was far from bitter.
     
     "It was a birthday I'll never forget," Sanabria said.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related site:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * Greyhound Lines
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.
     
   
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From jongalt at pinn.net  Sun Nov 23 15:53:12 1997
From: jongalt at pinn.net (Jon Galt)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:53:12 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971123050057.3ac79780@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971123183247.24326G-100000@everest.pinn.net>



On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Mikhael Frieden wrote:

> At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
> >>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
(Geiger)
> >>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
> >>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
> >>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
> >>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
> >>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
> >>>of it).
> 
(Frieden)
> >>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
> >>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
> >>across the border.
> 
(May)
> >And what would be wrong with this?
> 
(Frieden)
>         Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
> committing a crime.

And who is it that gets to decide what is a "crime" and what is not?  The 
politicos, the bureaucrats, the hoodlums in DC and elsewhere who think 
they have the right to run the lives of everybody else.

Again I ask the question:
What gives the hoodlums in Washington DC the right to draw a line on a 
map and control people's travel across that line?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt at pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Nov 23 16:05:25 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:05:25 +0800
Subject: Junior Jim Bells in Training
Message-ID: <2JHnYJ838QwZv0bUsUYI/w==@bureau42.ml.org>



Tim May wrote:

> (Vulis, Toto, Detweiler...don't get any ideas.)

At least one of us has been there...done that--over ten years ago. 

Seeing the fuckers face when the Feds knock on his door comes
close to being a beautific sexual experience. It is well worth
the wait.

Anyone familiar with the statute of limitations involved?








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 23 16:28:57 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:28:57 +0800
Subject: Mondex help needed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971124001555.20959A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <aRcNge24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> writes:

> The task would be much easier if I had one or several of the following:
<long list of hacker toys>

Your asshole employer, C2Net, must be on the verge of bankrupcy if they
can't afford to get this shit for you and you have to beg on mailing lists.
Don't you just haye Internet panhanders: "I'm a poor student, please send
me a few dollars..." "I work for c2net, please send me a magnetic stripe
reader..." How pathetic.

When are you having a "going out of business" sale?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Sun Nov 23 16:45:25 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:45:25 +0800
Subject: Digital signatures
In-Reply-To: <199711230807.JAA15377@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971123173232.53944B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>



On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy May was born when his mother was on the toilet.
> 
>           o       o
>         /<         >\ Timothy May
>         \\\_______///
>         //         \\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov 23 16:54:48 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:54:48 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199711240058.SAA09319@einstein.ssz.com>



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   Barnes and Noble 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   World banner 4MB upgrade only $49.99 rule
   
               FACING CRISIS, JAPAN'S OLDEST BROKERAGE TO CLOSE
                                       
      graphic November 23, 1997
     Web posted at: 7:06 p.m. EST (0006 GMT)
     
     TOKYO (Reuters) -- Yamaichi Securities Co. Ltd, Japan'soldest
     brokerage, will shut down, a spokesman said Monday,resulting in the
     country's biggest financial failure since World War II.
     
     Financial sources said a last-ditch review at a meeting ofYamaichi's
     board of directors determined it had no chance ofsurviving a credit
     crunch, shrinking business and high-profile scandals.
     
     The board was to hold a news conference later Monday,the spokesman
     said.
     
     Japanese markets were closed on Monday for a national holiday, but
     international stock markets and the yen were expected to be hit by
     the news of the shutdown amid fears of a domino effect across Japan,
     Asia and possibly beyond.
     
   International markets brace for possible fallout
  
     
     
     International markets were braced for fallout from Asia's latest
     economic crisis, the final chapter in a saga of Japanese corporate
     racketeering that has worldwide implications.
     
     The fear that Japan might be the next Asian domino to fallhas kept
     international monetary officials, already dealing with a crisis in
     South Korea, the world's 11th largest economy, and other Asian
     nations, on edge.
     
     "The initial reaction is likely to be selling pressure onthe yen and
     equity markets and a firmer opening for U.S.Treasuries," said Kirit
     Shah, chief market strategist at Sanwa International in London.
     
     Bank of Japan sources told Reuters a special board meetingwould be
     held on Monday morning on whether to extend specialunsecured loans
     to Yamaichi.
     
     The Finance Ministry and central bank contacted overseasauthorities
     to alleviate global concerns, especially in U.S. and European
     markets.
     
   Third brokerage to collapse in past month
  
     
     
     The Yamaichi crisis follows the collapse in the past monthof
     second-tier brokerage Sanyo Securities Co. Ltd. and10th-ranking
     commercial bank Hokkaido Takushoku Bank.
     
     Finger-pointing has already started over what was behind thecollapse
     in its centenary year of a Japanese household name that has a staff
     of 7,500 at home and 33 branches abroad.
     
     Takeo Nishioka, secretary-general of the main opposition NewFrontier
     Party, said Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto's ruling Liberal
     Democratic Party had not acted decisively enough to ensure financial
     stability in Japan.
     
     "The Yamaichi Securities situation has undermined the trustof
     Japanese investors and international financial markets,"Nishioka
     said on national television.
     
   A financial system in need of reform
  
     
     
     The criticism added up to a unanimous view that Japan'sfinancial
     system was in urgent need of reform, deregulation and closer
     supervision -- and there was more bad news to come.
     
     At its core, the liquidity crunch faced by Yamaichi has beendriven
     by concern that creditors cannot pin down just how large the
     brokerage's potential losses could become, analysts said.
     
     "It's a story of lack of sufficient disclosure andsupervision," said
     James Fiorillo, senior banking analyst at ING Barings in Tokyo.
     
     A Finance Ministry official said on Saturday there weresuspicions of
     vast off-balance sheet liabilities exceeding 200 billion yen ($1.58
     billion) from illegal trading practices.
     
     If that is the extent of the problem, one industry source said that
     a "white knight might be found to pick up at least some of the
     pieces.
     
     But there were worries the numbers may be much larger, withpossibly
     1 trillion yen ($7.9 billion) accumulated fromillegal deals since
     the 1980s.
     
     Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
     
   
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From jito at eccosys.com  Sun Nov 23 16:58:35 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:58:35 +0800
Subject: Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
In-Reply-To: <v04002704b09b99c65b9c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199711240053.JAA00520@eccosys.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

You should get Whitfield Diffie and Susan Landau's "Privacy
on the Line : The Politics of Wiretapping and Encryption" MIT
Press.

If it isn't out yet, it should be out soon. It is excellent.

 - Joi

At 15:05 97/11/21 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> X-Sender: ddfr at shell9.ba.best.com
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:39:58 -0800
> Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>               <CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
> Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>               <CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
> From: david friedman <ddfr at BEST.COM>
> Subject:      Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
> To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> 
> I am getting ready to teach my seminar on Computers, Crime and Privacy
> again, and wondering if there is something new that I should substitute for
> _Building in Big Brother_. Are there any recent books that have a
> reasonably accessible treatment of encryption, the controversy over
> regulation, etc.? For that matter, are there any good recent books on
> computer crime?
> 
> I may end up simply substituting in a lot of URL's, but I thought it was
> probably worth including some old technology as well, if available.
> 
> David Friedman
> Professor of Law
> Santa Clara University
> ddfr at best.com
> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNHhRX+SNryotlGHxEQJ0lgCggrhifLoMwUYkPaTJeXlIzlWYbFgAnjRk
sI57zMIWqgaeiN8Wj6WWF176
=CFoO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From emc at wire.insync.net  Sun Nov 23 17:03:59 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:03:59 +0800
Subject: Negronics
Message-ID: <199710291928.NAA02735@wire.insync.net>



According to the Associated Press, the first Black student at the
University of Mississippi, James Meredith, has just opened an
institute which teaches Black men and boys to be successful by
avoiding the use of Black English, or Ebonics.
 
Speaking at a news conference today, Meredith told reporters that
Black males could never be intellectual giants unless they learned
proper English.
 
Meredith promised that after attending his new Mississippi Meredith
Institute's weekend classes, the Black male would be "as comfortable
in the library as he is on the basketball court."
 
The Meredith Institute would not be open to girls or women, Meredith
explained, although they may sit in on classes if they pay a $50 fee.
He explained that Black women would still prevail in the Black family,
because, "She's not going to let the boy get ahead of her."
 
Meredith's first school, the Library Scool for Black Boys and Men in
Jackson, Mississippi, is scheduled to open in January.  A second
school will open in February in San Diego.
 
No Ho's or Bitches need apply.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 






From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Nov 23 17:13:02 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:13:02 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711232043.OAA08112@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0400274fb09e5fc84c58@[139.167.130.248]>



At 3:43 pm -0500 on 11/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:


> 			       ARTICLE XVI.
>
> 	The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on
> incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the
> several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
> [25 February 1913.]

Wasn't the 16th ammendment the result of the constitutional challenge of a
Spanish American War tax? Or maybe it was used to fund whatever progressive
stuff TR was up to at the time. It seems to me that, from the Spanish
American War until the ammendment's implementation would be a reasonable
timeframe to get an ammendment effort underway, passed by congress, and
ratified by the states. Given the popularity of the war, it wouldn't
surprise me if a tax implemented to pay for it would have gone down so
easily.

I know that the income tax was first attempted as a temporary measure in
the Civil War, without much compliance, I bet, given that was a book entry
tax being tried in a predominantly cash-settled bearer certificate economy,
and, that, when they tried to do it again, sometime in the Third Great
Awakening :-),  the Supreme Court struck it down.

Of course, all the pseudoconstitutionalist claptrap about the 16th being
unconstitutional is, of course, that. The constitution's what the Supreme
Court says it is, unfortunately.

Doesn't mean the damn thing shouldn't be repealed, though there's fat
chance of that. Oh well. Fortunately, we can fight back with digital bearer
settlement. Someday. Soon, I hope.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 23 17:16:13 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:16:13 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711232043.OAA08112@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b09e53a4b922@[207.167.93.63]>



At 1:43 PM -0700 11/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
...
>Any particular methodology you might care to share on stopping WWII?
>Being an avid amateur historian concerning WWII I am very much interested in
>any insight you might have.

Not entering the war. There's ample evidence that the U.S. provoked the
Japanese in various ways. (I'm not saying the Japanese were blameless, or
lily-white, or"nice," etc., only that most historians agree--and Japanese
archives support--that the Japanese were motivated to attack Pearl Harbor
in the hope that a devastating first blow would sink enough ships, etc., to
cause America to back off in its actions in the ironically named Pacific.)

Had the U.S. concentrated on its own affairs, on just trade, it is unlikely
that what the Japanese were doing in Malaysia, Manchuria, Korea, Indochina,
and the Phillipines would have had any major interest for us.

As for Europe, this was even less our war than the Pacific war.

In a sense, so _what_ if some army from some nation was rolling over other
armies?

(The "evilness" of Hitler is not the issue, either. Else Stalin and Mao
would have been cause enough to go to war.)

(And the issue of "alliances" is even murkier. The states of the U.S. have
little to fear from Canada or Mexico, so what use have "alliances" ever
been? Much could be said about the pros and cons of alliances, but I am
persuaded that the U.S. should avoid them. And certainly the monarchic
alliances which led to the First World War--a war fought over the Hapsburg
Dynasty and assorted intrigues==were completely absurd. Even the proximate
cause of the U.S. entry into the war, the sinking of the "Lusitania" and
related events, was duplicitous on the part of the U.S. government...the
U.S. gov't. was "taking sides" by shipping munitions on the L.)

As for the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem...not my war.  A tragedy
and a horrible atrocity, to be sure, but so were the forced starvation of
the Kulaks and others, the decision by the PRC government to deliberately
sacrifice a region of 30 million peasants, the "killing fields" of
Cambodia, the Rwanda massacres, and so on.

Just as invading Cambodia to save a million Cambodians was not justified,
just as invading Rwanda to stop the killing of a million Hutus or Tutsis or
both, so, too, was an invasion of Europe to save some Frenchmen or some
Jews or Gypsies unjustified.

If the U.S. had not become "policeman to the world" in the early part of
this century ("...but carry a big stick"), or, more to the point, if the
United States were (emphasis on the plural "were," not "was") highly
authonomous and decentralized, it is hard to imagine Illinois or New
Hampshire deciding to send their men to die in the Pacific for some
abstract notion of "stopping Japanese imperialism." Ditto for the war in
Europe, although no doubt many with relatives in Euope would be pressing
for mandatory action. Understandable, but ignorable in a free society.

Those who wanted to liberate the death camps, or to push Hitler back into
Gerrmany, or to kick the Emperor's butt could, of course, simply go over
and volunteer. In a free society, mercenaries are legal.

The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From Devin-Akin at usa.net  Sun Nov 23 17:54:05 1997
From: Devin-Akin at usa.net (Devin Akin)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:54:05 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <01bcf878$b0ab1fa0$26d9f5ce@devin>





Dear Sir,
�
I would like to request a copy of the crack 
files for Windows 95 and WFW "pwl" files if you have them.� I am 
a network engineer and I'm doing some small-time network security for a couple 
of clients.� I would like to show them just how vulnerable their network is 
to even the simplest of file utilities.� Thanks in advance for any help you 
might provide.
�
<A 
href="mailto:Devin-Akin at usa.net">Devin-Akin at usa.net
MCNE, MCSE



From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sun Nov 23 18:05:49 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:05:49 +0800
Subject: Another Anti-Privacy Bigot Heard From (was: The Guilmette/Burnore deba
In-Reply-To: <slrn67eevb.fjb.sjsobol@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <199711240054.QAA27858@sirius.infonex.com>



sjsobol at devel.nacs.net (Steve Sobol) wrote:

> So my challenge to the people posting anonymously is to either go away, or
> find some balls and post non-anonymously. I know this won't happen, as much
> of the stuff being said is rather libelous and can get the poster into a lot
> of legal trouble, but hey, if any of the cowards involved would *like* to
> reveal themselves...

If you'd to expose ... er, I mean "reveal" yourself, be my guest. <g>

But knock off the bigotry -- anonymous posters are not going to be relegated
to the back of the bus just because some control freak is annoyed by hearing 
things with which he disagrees posted by people that he can't identify.  
You're merely chanting the same line we've all heard over and over -- 
"unless you have something to hide, you won't mind my snooping and meddling 
in every aspect of your life".

Threats of "a lot of legal trouble" for speaking one's mind are nothing new.  
But the tort of libel requires that the information be FALSE.  There's a 
difference between something being libellously false and merely being 
embarassingly true.  And, of course, the burden of proof is on the person 
making the charge.

--






From amp at pobox.com  Sun Nov 23 18:34:04 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:34:04 +0800
Subject: executive officers
Message-ID: <Chameleon.880332648.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>



Someone recently sent a post ot this list where they mentioned that George 
Bush and Ronald Reagan were former chief executive officers of a 
corporation that sells military equipment.

Can whoever posted this send it to me?

amp

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 11/23/97
Time: 19:43:22
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sun Nov 23 19:01:59 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:01:59 +0800
Subject: Belinda Bryan's Defense of Gary "Sadaam" Burnore (was: Re: Keman the K
In-Reply-To: <347d10bb.32754853@news.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711240132.RAA03759@sirius.infonex.com>



eridani+spam at netcom.com (Belinda Bryan) wrote:
       ^^^^^

> X-No-Archive: yes

Clever.  You and Gary demand "proof" of what you've said in the past, then you
attempt to conceal the very evidence you're demanding like this.  It figures.
Nothing like this, coupled with repeated false claims of "forgery", to give 
your posts a little "plausible deniability", is there?

> Organization: Boycott E-Scrub Technologies. The owner is an admitted spambaiter.

Your obsessive disinformation campaign continues, I see...

[...]

> >>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:54:33 GMT, eguy at mindspring.com (Eric Guy) wrote:
> >>The account is closed.  Find something ELSE to be obsessed about.
> >                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >Take your own fucking advice. Get off Ron Guilmette's back.
> > You posted his ten year old tax lien.
>  
> Public information.  Just like all those "public" email addresses rfg
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> posted of users of ISPS who didn't meet his standards.  Tit for tat.

Well, if posting public information is OK, then why the hate campaign against 
Ron Guilmette and his business for (allegedly) doing like you and Gary did?

Actually, either you're lying now about the reason that Gary posted the info
back in February, or Gary was lying back then when he said: "What say each 
time you slam DataBasix for no reason, we post some publicly available 
information about monkeys.com.  HEre's the first try" and "More where this 
came from. Yu wanna keep slamming DataBasix for no good reason?". [1]  That 
sounds like an attempt at censorship through intimidation to me.  After you 
pull stunts like that is it any wonder that people post their opinions 
anonymously?  The more you attack anonymous remailers and their users, the
more people will see the benefit of utilizing them.

> Life's a bitch that way, ain't it? 
           ^^^^^

No, LIFE isn't, but, OTOH ...

> > You mail bombed him and tried syn flooding without success.
>  
> THAT'S A VICIOUS LIE.  POST THE GODDAMN PROOF OR SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Now I'm beginning to see why you weren't able to convince Jeff Burchell that
you were a "lawyer" for DataBasix when you tried the Scientology-esque stunt
of demanding that he turn all of his (non-existent) user logs over to
DataBasix to use in their witch hunt against the users of his remailer. [2] 
Going on a tantrum like that in a courtroom would get you jailed for 
contempt of court.

I see you haven't changed your typical DataBasix tactics of demanding proof
from others, but never bothering to offer any for your own accusations.  Like
the accusations that Ron Guilmette "spam baited" addresses at databasix.com.
(The only thing you've posted that even looked like evidence was some idle
talk about netcom.com addresses.)  Or how about that claim that Mr. Guilmette
supposedly "abused" an unnamed "teenage girl" at DataBasix?
 
> > These days you looking for more blood. Find someone else to be obsessed
> > about. Asshole. 
>  
> Jesus, cretins like you give *responsible* people posting anonymously a
> bad name.  As do those such as the delta sub-moron who forged my
> former [1] email address in the Reply to: line of an obscene Usenet
> post.

As far as giving anonymous posters a bad name, since when have you EVER
had anything decent or civil to say about those who don't believe that 
setting one's self up for abuse should be the price of free speech?  Calling
anonymous posters "anon assholes" only betrays your pernicious bigotry and
hatred of those who dare to speak their minds without subjecting themselves
to the revenge that seems to (coincidentally?) befall those who dare to
criticize the almighty Sadaam Burnore.

As far as "delta sub-morons" engaging in "forgery" (assuming they aren't your
fellow "delta sub-morons" on the DataBasix gang) what about all the crude
attempts at forgery involving the e-mail addresses of those who've dared to
publicly disagree with Gary Burnore and his DataBasix wrecking crew?  What
about the letters in various MMF and MLM NGs saying "I have a lot of money
to invest, please send me information on how I can get rich quick" and
purportedly signed by these folks?  I must have missed your vehement
protests about that.
 
> You aren't worth the bother anymore.
>  
> *PLONK*

Did anyone force you to post THIS tantrum?  Don't let the door strike your 
posterior on the way out.
 
> [1] former because I had to close the account when it become completely
> unusable, thanks to some anonymous cretin who (a) used the address as
> spambait several *thousand* times and (b) subscribed me to every
> freaking html-ized newsletter in existence.

Once again, you post accusations without proof.  (Maybe I ought to do my
DataBasix impression of you and Sadaam Burnore stomping your feet and 
chanting in unison, "Not a shred of evidence! Not a shred of evidence!")
You can only say "I didn't do it, nobody saw me doing it, and you can't
prove a thing" so often.

Your post no evidence that such alleged abuse even occurred, nor that, *IF* it
did occur, it was perpetrated by someone other than you or one of your fellow 
abusers at DataBasix, perhaps as a pretext to get a remailer shut down.  If by 
your "former e-mail address" you're referring to an account at DataBasix.com,
could the real reason be that Gary is so technically inept that he has been
unable to get the databasix.com domain up and running after his hasty exodus
from California to North Carolina?  At least that's been his alibi -- "I
couldn't have posted any spam bait - databasix.com is still down".
 
Your whining is so hypocritical, anyway.  Where were those protests when your
fellow staffer at DataBasix, William J. McClatchie (aka "Wotan"), was busy
making THOUSANDS of e-mail addresses useless when he went on his successful
campaign to get the Mailmasher server shut down?  (Remember the bogus 
"forgery" charges and the pitiful "evidence" that was posted?)

> P.S.  Fix your goddamn line wrap.

Why?  You claim to have "plonked" him/her....

Why not just fix your newsreader?

--
Since Belinda likes to footnote her posts:

[1] http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com/HTML-1997-11/msg00529.html
[2] http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov 23 19:21:21 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:21:21 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711240315.VAA10145@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:12:02 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
> Subject: Re: Further costs of war
> 
> At 1:43 PM -0700 11/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> ...
> >Any particular methodology you might care to share on stopping WWII?
> >Being an avid amateur historian concerning WWII I am very much interested in
> >any insight you might have.
> 
> Not entering the war.

Do you have a particular method in mind?

> There's ample evidence that the U.S. provoked the
> Japanese in various ways.

Such as?

> (I'm not saying the Japanese were blameless, or
> lily-white, or"nice," etc., only that most historians agree--and Japanese
> archives support--that the Japanese were motivated to attack Pearl Harbor
> in the hope that a devastating first blow would sink enough ships, etc., to
> cause America to back off in its actions in the ironically named Pacific.)

So how does Tojo and his out of control Kwantung Army figure into this? Do
you feel that Japans Co-prosperity Sphere was a benign goal? How do you
consign your position that we provoked Japan with their behaviour in such
situations as Nanking?

> Had the U.S. concentrated on its own affairs, on just trade, it is unlikely
> that what the Japanese were doing in Malaysia, Manchuria, Korea, Indochina,
> and the Phillipines would have had any major interest for us.

The Phillipines at the time were a US protectorate, is your position that we
should have simply turned them over without a fight? Korea was ceeded to
Japan as a result of the 1903 defeat of Russia, how is this relevant to your
position? Let's assume for a moment that the US hadn't gotten involved. The
Japanese would have eventualy gotten to Australia. Once there what would have
kept them from expanding their co-prosperity sphere eastward in order to
better stabalize their resources. When they knocked on Guam or Midway's door
should we have let them go like the Phillipines? How about the Japanese's
eventual expansion into the Allutians? Should we have simply given Alaska to
them as well? Is your position that once they had the western half of the
pacific rim they would have no pretentions on the eastern half? What do you
base this on?

> As for Europe, this was even less our war than the Pacific war.

Really? How so? Is your position that Germany would have benignly left the
US alone once they had defeated Britian (I am assuming of course the US
hadn't shipped resources such as oil and fuel to them)? Had the US not
gotten into the war the resources available to Germany and Japan were such
they could realisticaly have beaten the Russian. One of the reasons that
Russia had the resources to reinforce the eastern front was their ability to
remove troops from the Chinese border based on Richard Sorge's intelligence.

> In a sense, so _what_ if some army from some nation was rolling over other
> armies?

That depends on where they stop their rolling. Is your position that if we
had refused to support conflicts against Japan and Germany all would have
been well? Are you proposing that Germany would not have advanced with their
atomic research? Completed development on their jet-based New York Bomber?

> Those who wanted to liberate the death camps, or to push Hitler back into
> Gerrmany, or to kick the Emperor's butt could, of course, simply go over
> and volunteer. In a free society, mercenaries are legal.

Volunteer to who?

> The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
> arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.

Justifiable war? How is the invasion of the US by British troops
significantly different than the invasion by German or Japanese troops?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU  Sun Nov 23 20:19:42 1997
From: fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU (Fabrice Planchon)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:19:42 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711240315.VAA10145@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971123231231.18995@math.princeton.edu>



On Sun, Nov 23, 1997 at 09:15:20PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Had the U.S. concentrated on its own affairs, on just trade, it is unlikely
> > that what the Japanese were doing in Malaysia, Manchuria, Korea, Indochina,
> > and the Phillipines would have had any major interest for us.
> 
> The Phillipines at the time were a US protectorate, is your position that we
> should have simply turned them over without a fight? Korea was ceeded to
> Japan as a result of the 1903 defeat of Russia, how is this relevant to your
> position? Let's assume for a moment that the US hadn't gotten involved. The
> Japanese would have eventualy gotten to Australia. Once there what would have
> kept them from expanding their co-prosperity sphere eastward in order to
> better stabalize their resources. When they knocked on Guam or Midway's door
> should we have let them go like the Phillipines? How about the Japanese's
> eventual expansion into the Allutians? Should we have simply given Alaska to

I guess what Tim means is at some point a equilibrium is reached, such
as in this case 2 dominant players (Japan and USA) face each other and
rather coexist than fight, because trading is more beneficial to them
than war. The problem with such a theory is that it supposes both actors
are intelligent enough to figure out when war isn't the best
solution. In that particular case, I have little to no faith in the
japanese side...

> Really? How so? Is your position that Germany would have benignly left the
> US alone once they had defeated Britian (I am assuming of course the US
> hadn't shipped resources such as oil and fuel to them)? Had the US not
> gotten into the war the resources available to Germany and Japan were such
> they could realisticaly have beaten the Russian. One of the reasons that

Hum hum. I frankly doubt that. Somehow your ability to expand durably
depends on your ability to keep your new possessions. While occupying
France, using a satellite gouvernment, isn't that hard, occupying Russia
(for the germans) and China (for the japanese) is another, quite
impossible, task if you don't get the population support (or, at least,
indifference). So, if Hitler had known better, he would have stuck to
western europe...

> That depends on where they stop their rolling. Is your position that if we
> had refused to support conflicts against Japan and Germany all would have
> been well? Are you proposing that Germany would not have advanced with their
> atomic research? Completed development on their jet-based New York Bomber?

This is a better argument than the domino theory you were suggesting for
the Pacific front. If countries like France, England (and Italy, as
Mussolini wasn't particulary fond of Hitler in the beginning of the
30's) had been smarter, they could have dealt with Hitler differently
when he successively invaded his smallest "german speaking"
neighbours. Of course, if you go that way, you may as well rewrite the
Versailles treaty to avoid what happened in Germany latter. Always easy
to rewrite history when you know what happened....

> > The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
> > arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.

Justifiable as "we (the states of the Union) were invaded by the British
?". Actually, don't you think you deserved that one as the same states
tried to invade (then british) Canada, hoping GB was to busy dealing
with Napoleon ? Or correct me if I am wrong ? if you take that path, the
last justifiable war is the independence one.

> Justifiable war? How is the invasion of the US by British troops
> significantly different than the invasion by German or Japanese troops?

Once again, if 1812 the invasion actually occured, when during WWII it
was merely a possibility. You see it as certain, Time probably doesn't,
and it's a matter of opinions more than anything. Being born in Paris I
am personnally rather glad the US decided to come over ;-)

                            F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735








From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 23 20:22:34 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:22:34 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09d6e2dcfcf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102809b09e9d9e1a67@[207.167.93.63]>



At 2:01 PM -0700 11/23/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
><Nice to see I'm back out of TCM's killfile. He apparently figured out he
>can run, etc.>

A red herring. I last had Hettinga in my filter file about a year ago,
after his "Watching the MacRubble Bounce" eruption and aftermath. It is
true that I usually just glance at your posts and then hit the D
key....it's tough to extract meaning out of strings of expressions like:

"The ganglia twitch... don't forget to swallow your milk before you read
this....Don't want to blow it all out your nose... Er, thanks. I think.
Makes me sound like an ibogaine-crazed Barbie doll with an AK... :-)....
<BudLightMan> I *Love* you man...</BLM>... Ooops. I am. I do. With e$pam, I
mean. Well -- never mind. Can I, um, backpedal that?... So, boys and
girls,... Ooops. Sorry. Heh... Lost my train of thought... Vinnie saying to
him (YANC), in effect, we need him (YANC) for a proper Laying-On of Hands,
him being a Piece of the True Crypto Cross, and all.... The ganglia, um,
twitch... Thanks to the e$ e$lves... (at 360lbs soaking wet, *I* should
talk...)... Now, where *is* that "kick me" sign... Ding! You rang? Welcome
to Random Acts of Kindness, Inc. Our motto: "You never know when we're
going to make your day!"..."

(These are just a few of the Bobisms out of my "H-Files."

This weird mix of "Alice's Restaurant" and "Fear and Loathing on the Road
to Las Vegas" styles is incomprehensible to me. Maybe it makes sense to
Bob's intended audience...maybe to Guy Kawasaki and other such hucksters.

What nuggets of truth Bob uncovers are usually buried in mountains of
florid rhetoric. More than anything, he needs to get back on his Ritalin,
or whatever he takes for his ADD, and


>Finally, as far as code is concerned -- or even *talking* about
>cryptographic technology and what it can do anymore -- the irony of what
>*you* do all day, Tim, versus what Vinnie does, is of course, rather
>immense.

Yet another claim that I am not doing enough for the Cause, or at least
that Bob's friend Vinnie is doing ever so much more. (Knowing Vinnie,
however slightly, I imagine he must find this hero worship by Bob a bit
unseemly.)


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Nov 24 12:40:30 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:40:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why posts are not appearing in NG.
In-Reply-To: <199711240215.DAA29717@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971124204002.8181.qmail@nym.alias.net>


nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:

> Anonimity has already been lost due to the fact that if some
> ass who is a control freak keeps posting crap to the
> news.lists.filters newsgroup. Go ahead an see for yourselves
> how many groups have been eliminated from receiving posts from
> anonymous remailers. All that need be done is post some spam
> through the anonymous remailer to a legitimate group, make a
> request to cancel all postings to the newsgroup from that remailer
> and guess what, your posts will no longer appear in the newsgroup.
> 
> No investigation, no nothing! Just like that all posts from an
> anonymous remailer stop appearing in a group.
> So if your posts are not appearing on a particular newsgroup,
> chances are that it has been prevented from accepting posts due
> to idiots that just do as they are requested. By the way, who has
> authority to just terminate (restrict the acceptance of posts)
> to a newsgroup?
> Do not believe it? Go to Deja News, go to power search and type in
> the following (anonymous and news.lists.filters) and see what
> the results are. Shocking. Someone or group of individuals is
> abusing this privalage and must be exposed/dealt with accordingly.

That's becoming old hat with the censorious control freaks.  If they don't 
like what's being posted anonymously, the post a whole bunch of anonymous 
"abuse" themselves, then turn around and demand that "something to be done 
to stop this abuse".  It's gotten remailers banned from posting through 
certain mail2news gateways, and even gotten remailers (like Mailmasher,
Huge Cajones, and Lucifer) shut down entirely.

In many cases, it's not hard to figure out who's doing it.  Just look for
posts where anonymous posters are called "anonymous assholes", accused of
"hiding behind the skirts of a remailer", etc.  For info on the attack on
Jeff Burchell's remailers, visit:

 http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com/HTML-1997-11/msg00536.html

-or-

 http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html

> One of the biggest abusers of this practice is at
> Unknown News Administrator <news at news.msfc.nasa.gov>
> 8862 news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins
> This individual posts requests through legitimate servers and is
> slowly eroding the anonymous posts purpose.
> Go ahead and check to see if the newsgroup you post to is on the
> list and report back to the group.
   
If you'll visit the "control" NG, you'll find see that <news at news.msfc.nasa.gov>
is forging a lot of cancel messages to kill anonymous posts.  Perhaps a
complaint to NASA is in order to protest government computers being used
for forgery. And if someone is also forging a NASA address to make them look
bad at the same time, then they need to know about that, too.

--





From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Sun Nov 23 20:49:42 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:49:42 +0800
Subject: Russ Alberry/CAUCE vs. the Cypherpunks (was: Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauc
In-Reply-To: <3478A08B.72DE@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711240434.WAA03995@manifold.algebra.com>



I do not think that your message made it to USENET, TruthMonger.

igor

TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> 
> lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
> > 
> > Russ Allbery <rra at stanford.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > > * I am specifically pissed at Igor about trolling for votes on                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >  random newsgroups and on Cypherpunks.
> 
> > In what sense are you using the word "trolling"?  Are you saying that the
> > mention of a proposal to ban anonymity is considered "trolling" when posted
> > amongst a group of pro-privacy, pro-anonymity individuals such as the
> > Cypherpunks? 
> 
>   Sounds like he is only objecting to you discussing issues important
> to you with groups you belong to and groups that you *don't* belong to.
>   Sounds like Chelsea is pushing daddy's fascist agenda at Stanford.
> 
> > Why is publicly disagreeing with you considered a "propaganda campaign"?
> > Why should the C.A.U.C.E. brand of propaganda be the only variety allowed?
> 
>   Because fickless ducks live in fear of individuals who threaten
> their ability to hide under phantom security blankets.
>   
> > When I first heard of the C.A.U.C.E., my initial thought was that it was a
> > good idea.  Finally a means to fight back against the spammers.  Now I'm
> > starting  to wonder what sort of agenda is driving some of these illogical
> > anti-privacy requirements.
> 
>   Often, it is just the result of people who come up with some inane
> brainstorm that looks good on the surface, but are too intellectually
> lazy to think it through and resent anyone who does so (thus destroying
> their petty work of self-proclaimed 'genius'.
>   The real losers end up doing a lot of campaigning to make up for the
> insufficiency of their logic, under the delusion that getting as many
> others as possible to jump on their bandwagon will somehow increase
> their low level of self-esteem.
> 
>   Sounds to me like the dweeb is pissed because he had to do a lot
> of blather-spamming to overcome the effects of Igor's rational
> and balanced posts on the subject.
>   Perhaps his next project could be to promote a vote on a new
> value for 'pi'. 
> 
> TruthMonger
> 



	- Igor.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 23 21:16:16 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:16:16 +0800
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <199711240455.FAA28286@basement.replay.com>



"Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose at mailexcite.com> sez:

>>Onan is commonly (albeit incorrectly) credited with the invention of
>>masturbation.  (See Genesis 38:6-10 in the Bible)  I wonder what sort of
>>thoughts the Onan-o-graph induces? [snicker, snicker]
>
>get your demonized molesting mind out of the gutter

Yep, that's definitely Second Dynamic out-ethics to the Scienos. Of course, they'd be glad to sell you some auditing to bring you up on the tone scale.
Got a few thousand extra dollars sitting around?

I didn't make up any of this stuff -- if you care enough to learn about it, do an Altavista search on "Operation Clambake." See L. Ron Hubbard's mind in action! Read about the Galactic Confederation! Thrill to the Xenu legend! Enjoy NOT spending your money to learn this stuff!

"I mock up my reactive mind." -- A great $cientology $ecret, their Clear
Cognition. I just saved you a few grand. Tip your waitress.







From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov 23 21:19:39 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:19:39 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711240521.XAA10697@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:12:31 -0500
> From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)

> I guess what Tim means is at some point a equilibrium is reached, such
> as in this case 2 dominant players (Japan and USA) face each other and
> rather coexist than fight, because trading is more beneficial to them
> than war. The problem with such a theory is that it supposes both actors
> are intelligent enough to figure out when war isn't the best
> solution. In that particular case, I have little to no faith in the
> japanese side...

Considering the relationship between the Kwantung Army and the Emporer
faith and the Japanese are a clearly mis-matched combination.

> > Really? How so? Is your position that Germany would have benignly left the
> > US alone once they had defeated Britian (I am assuming of course the US
> > hadn't shipped resources such as oil and fuel to them)? Had the US not
> > gotten into the war the resources available to Germany and Japan were such
> > they could realisticaly have beaten the Russian. One of the reasons that
> 
> Hum hum. I frankly doubt that.

Japan beat the shit out of Russia in 1903. Had it not been for Richard
Sorge's intelligence of the situation in 1938 around Chankufeng Hill at
Vladivostok indicating the Japanese governments committment to keep the
situation from becoming a declared war and Georgi Zukhov at Khalkin Gol in
1939 the Japs would have beaten them then as well. In both situations Stalin
was up against the wall. In 1938 there are clear indications that instead of
counter-attacking he might very well have sued for peace and in the process
lost the port at Vladivostok. Had the Japanese re-inforced their army they
could have beaten the Russian troops available. Considering the lack of
roads and rail in that part of Russia it is unrealistic to expect
reinforcements to have arrived from Russia in a meaningful time frame
without recognizing the contribution Japans hesitancy in getting into a
conflict with Russia and Richard Sorge's clandestine intelligence
contributed. Had either one of those not been present then Russia would have
been eaten in little gobbles from the east and west.

> Somehow your ability to expand durably
> depends on your ability to keep your new possessions. While occupying
> France, using a satellite gouvernment, isn't that hard, occupying Russia
> (for the germans) and China (for the japanese) is another, quite
> impossible, task if you don't get the population support (or, at least,
> indifference). So, if Hitler had known better, he would have stuck to
> western europe...

Had it not been for the oil, food, and weapons we shipped Britian he would
have owned Europe in toto. It is clear from Hitlers earliest writings that
he had full intention of taking Russia. Had Stalin not had Sorge's
intelligence regarding the Japanese's intent not to attack Russia at that
time he would not have been able to pull troops from that front. Had those
troops not been pulled then both Moscow and Stalingrad *would* have fallen.
If Moscow fell Stalin fell. The Japanese also had intentions of taking
Russia but only if they could consolidate their hold in the western Pacific
Rim *and* keep America out of the conflict. China was beaten at the time.
The only thing keeping the Japanese from taking over the entire country was
two things. Their interest in expanding southward and eastward in the
Pacific to gain more oil and resource reserves (Manchuria's oil was critical
but no sufficient) and the fact that they simply didn't have enough men to
do both, expand north/west and south/east. The Japanese chose to go
south/east because they figured that with no chance of Russia attacking with
the Germans on their doorstep they could flesh out their co-prosperity sphere
and then come back once they had sufficient troops and resources *and* by
doing this in concert with the Germans there is little chance of Russia
surviving. It was also clear to many in Japan that there was no way America
could afford to stand by and watch the Pacific be taken by force. At the
time America was involved in its own expansion (ala Philipines & Guam) and
it is clear that both American and Japanese expansion in that area would not
work. The only clear path was to eliminate the American naval threat in the
Pacific. Should such a situation be achieved there was no way American could
afford to reduce the naval strength in the Atlantic by much, the Germans
were waging unrestricted submarine warfare sinking even American ships.

> > That depends on where they stop their rolling. Is your position that if we
> > had refused to support conflicts against Japan and Germany all would have
> > been well? Are you proposing that Germany would not have advanced with their
> > atomic research? Completed development on their jet-based New York Bomber?
> 
> This is a better argument than the domino theory you were suggesting for
> the Pacific front.

But this is a domino theory as well...there is one thing that studying
history and playing wargames teaches...all conflicts are a domino theory.

> If countries like France, England (and Italy, as Mussolini wasn't particulary
 fond of Hitler in the beginning of the
> 30's) had been smarter,

Mussolini may not have been fond of Hitler but he certainly admired and
respected the man, or at least that is what Ciano's diaries indicate.
Mussolini's explorations in Africa were a result of an attempt on his part
to gain respect in Hitlers eyes. Mussolini's attack on France was a gambit
to buy a seat at the surrender equal to Hitler. Mussolini's invasion of
Greece over Hitlers protests were a measure of his equality. Unfortunately
for the Italians the French & Greeks were more than capable of beating the
Italian forces. Note that the Italians were not poor forces (examine the
history of the Ariete Division in N. Africa) but rather very poorly led and
supplied. It's further of some interest to note that Japan was very diligantly
trying to get Italy to declare war on the US as late as Dec. 3, 1941.

> > > The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
> > > arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.
> 
> Justifiable as "we (the states of the Union) were invaded by the British
> ?". Actually, don't you think you deserved that one as the same states
> tried to invade (then british) Canada, hoping GB was to busy dealing
> with Napoleon ? Or correct me if I am wrong ? if you take that path, the
> last justifiable war is the independence one.
> 
> > Justifiable war? How is the invasion of the US by British troops
> > significantly different than the invasion by German or Japanese troops?
> 
> Once again, if 1812 the invasion actually occured, when during WWII it
> was merely a possibility.

The Japanese were certainly not bashful about taking Guam, Philipines,
Midway, the Aleutian Islands; all in their original plans. The Germans were
sinking ships as close as 20 miles off the easter seaboard. Bodies were
washing up on the beach on a regular basis all along the eastern US coast.

Keep in mind that from the tip of Siberia to the tip of Alaska is only
something like 90 miles. Now with that in mind and considering the state of
mind of Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, etc. how realistic is it to expect them to
have passed on such a plum?

> You see it as certain,

Absolutely, every indication is that Hitler and the Japanese had full
intention of involving the US. Neither could afford to let the resources and
peoples of north and south America sit untouched even if they hadn't planned
to get the US involved. Consider where the only two locations for platinum
are located and the impact of that metal on high-technology.* Further
consider, had Germany and Japan worked in concert a little closer they could
have had 90% of all the oil on the planet. You think the oil shortages of
the 70's were a bitch. In such a world the US would not have been the first
on the moon (I suspect we wouldn't even be in the running). We would not in
all probability have developed the atom bomb in time; Germany would have
inhereted all the work the British did and considering that at the time they
had all the heavy water on the planet they would have had a definite
advantage. Take that and put things such as the ME-262, the New York Blitz
Bomber, the V2, the Tri-partite signatories expansionistic dreams, the
picture becomes quite nasty.

And if you think for one minute that the US could have stood against Europe,
Asia, Africa, and Australia combined under some sort of combined assault
with the technological edge going to the tri-partites you are sorely
misinformed.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


*  Russia & S. Africa






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Sun Nov 23 21:36:56 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:36:56 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971124000458.0e8f3962@pop.mindspring.com>



At 06:38 PM 11/23/97 -0500, Jon Galt wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>
>> At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>(May)

>> >And what would be wrong with this?
 
>(Frieden)

>>         Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
>> committing a crime.

>And who is it that gets to decide what is a "crime" and what is not?  

        It would appear to me that an illegal in the country is as much in
the act of committing a crime as a burglar is while in a place other than
his own. 

>The 
>politicos, the bureaucrats, the hoodlums in DC and elsewhere who think 
>they have the right to run the lives of everybody else.

        The politicians are responding to voters. The voters who are
pressuring them are siding with foreign nationals against the interests of
the United States which is presumed to be their new country of loyalty.
That siding should be sufficient justification remove citizenship and
return them to the land of dysentary and mui Ninos. 

>Again I ask the question:
>What gives the hoodlums in Washington DC the right to draw a line on a 
>map and control people's travel across that line?

        The people who made handgun ownership a felony gave them that right. 

        Lawmakers are resonsible for all foreseeable consequences not just
the intended consequences. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Sun Nov 23 21:36:56 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:36:56 +0800
Subject: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971124001823.10b73e70@pop.mindspring.com>



At 09:46 AM 11/23/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 5:32 AM -0700 11/23/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>
>>        It is interesting that while almost the entire body of copyright
>>law deals with materials other then what is to be covered, the industry has
>>enough clout to get their's singled out for the first criminal penalties
>>for violation.
>>
>>        This leaves the bulk of copyrighted material, printed material,
>>photographs and the like open to being stolen as does nizkor for example.
>
>I mentioned this point back when I was on the Cyberia-l list a few years ago.
>
>Some of the law professors on the list were complaining that their
>copyright rights were being violated by the quoting or forwarding of
>articles.
>
>And the major newspapers were sending out threatening letters, which were
>generally heeded by the "offenders."
>
>Well, what about _my_ stuff? (More generally, anybody's stuff.)
>
>Why  does Professor Joe Shmoe or "The New Attleboro Times" have a greater
>claim to "copyright violations" than Fred Nobody?
>
>This is a semi-rhetorical question, as it mostly involves who is willing to
>hire a lawyer to enforce such property claims. But, as M. Frieden notes,
>the deck is stacked in favor of large newspapers, publishers, and even
>professional authors, and is stacked against private individuals and lesser
>authors gaining access to the courts.

>"Some copyrights are more equal than others."

>(Personally, I don't really believe in copyrights.)

        Perhaps but there is something particularly obnoxious to the rule
of law when scum like McVay being able to say to the effect, 'I know I am
stealing from you. Sue me.' 

        It is most clearly a mockery of the law to find his pack of
drooling toadies such as McC using the theft as a juvenile taunt, that some
may set themselves above the law solely upon the grounds of the cost of
civil action. 

        That is something simply not done in civilized society. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sun Nov 23 22:05:14 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:05:14 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711240525.VAA15090@sirius.infonex.com>



Fellow Kryptophiles,

I submit, for your reading pleasure, this link:

http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/cases.html

Discuss...

Socraticus






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov 23 22:06:38 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:06:38 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <1dc1ab3d3c51deee973ea2bb249d272f@anon.efga.org>



http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/CRASH/TWA/CIAVIDEO/ciavideo.html
        
"
Aircraft with natural stability, whether a toy glider, a Cessna, or a 747, achieve that stability by designing
the aircraft so that the center of gravity is slightly foreward of the center of lift. The plane is balanced by the
pressure of the tail downward, called the "tail drag". By keeping the aerodymic center (the wings) aft of the
center of gravity, the plane is kept naturally stable. It will fly with the nose foreward. The same with the
flights of a dart or the fletching on an arrow. The stable configuration is with the aerodynamic center to the
rear of the center of gravity. 

With the exception of modern combat CCV aircraft, which require computer control to maintain stability, all
aircraft, from the Wright Flyer to the Space Shuttle, follow these same principles. 

Without the nose, the center of gravity of the aircraft would move aft of the aerodynamic center. Continued
level flight in that configuration is an impossability. Trying to fly a 747 without it's nose would be like
trying to throw a dart backwards. Both would tumble, trying to swap ends. In the case of the 747, the
wings, even if they did not tear off while flat on to the 340 knot airstream, would lose all lift, and gravity
would take over. "







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 23 22:43:46 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:43:46 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19971123231231.18995@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <ZJsNge28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Fabrice Planchon <fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU> writes:

>
> On Sun, Nov 23, 1997 at 09:15:20PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> > > Had the U.S. concentrated on its own affairs, on just trade, it is unlike
> > > that what the Japanese were doing in Malaysia, Manchuria, Korea, Indochin
> > > and the Phillipines would have had any major interest for us.
> >
> > The Phillipines at the time were a US protectorate, is your position that w
> > should have simply turned them over without a fight? Korea was ceeded to
> > Japan as a result of the 1903 defeat of Russia, how is this relevant to you
> > position? Let's assume for a moment that the US hadn't gotten involved. The
> > Japanese would have eventualy gotten to Australia. Once there what would ha
> > kept them from expanding their co-prosperity sphere eastward in order to
> > better stabalize their resources. When they knocked on Guam or Midway's doo
> > should we have let them go like the Phillipines? How about the Japanese's
> > eventual expansion into the Allutians? Should we have simply given Alaska t
>
> I guess what Tim means is at some point a equilibrium is reached, such
> as in this case 2 dominant players (Japan and USA) face each other and
> rather coexist than fight, because trading is more beneficial to them
> than war. The problem with such a theory is that it supposes both actors
> are intelligent enough to figure out when war isn't the best
> solution. In that particular case, I have little to no faith in the
> japanese side...

While I have no love for the japs, I mus point out in all fairness that
FDR was attacking them on all fronts for years: 1) stopping the japs
from immigrating into the us, 2) cutting off their supplies of raw
materials (and therefore pushing the japs to conquer the territories
that would assure the supply). In particular, right before the japs
attacked pearl harbor, the US embargoed oil shipments to the japs.
The japs had said previously that they'd consider such an embargo
as a declaration of war. In particular, their line about p.h. was
that it wasn't a "sulplise attack", and that the US had previously
declared war on the japs by imposing the embargo.

> > Really? How so? Is your position that Germany would have benignly left the
> > US alone once they had defeated Britian (I am assuming of course the US
> > hadn't shipped resources such as oil and fuel to them)? Had the US not
> > gotten into the war the resources available to Germany and Japan were such
> > they could realisticaly have beaten the Russian. One of the reasons that
>
> Hum hum. I frankly doubt that. Somehow your ability to expand durably
> depends on your ability to keep your new possessions. While occupying
> France, using a satellite gouvernment, isn't that hard, occupying Russia
> (for the germans) and China (for the japanese) is another, quite
> impossible, task if you don't get the population support (or, at least,
> indifference). So, if Hitler had known better, he would have stuck to
> western europe...

My recollection is that Hitler's generla staff was busily designing the
plans for invading the US, to be implemented after he  was done with
the GB and the USSR. They involved invading via his latin american
allies (notably mexico) and possibly canada. However there was no
way to sell the war against germany to the american public, except
as part of a package deal with the war on japs.

Hitler probably made a mistake by attacking the USSR before he was finished
with the GB.  On the other hand, there's good evidence that Stalin was
hoping to attack Germany in the summer of 1941 while it was busy invading
the british isles. He made another mistake by pissing off the population,
which initially was very supportive of him, viewing him as the liberator
from the communists.

By the way, the Nazis and the Japs were never very close. Recall that the
japs became friendly with the soviets after several skirmishes in the 1930's;
the japs never joined hitler in his attack on the USSR (which would have
surely fallen had they attacked from the east); and the soviets kept trading
with the japs (at war with their british and us allies) all the way until 1945,
when they finally attacked the japs.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 23 22:51:57 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:51:57 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b09e9d9e1a67@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <4aTNge29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tiny Timmy May <tcmay at got.net> writes:
<a long collection of statist quotes from Bobby the geodesic baron>
> (These are just a few of the Bobisms out of my "H-Files."

Now who's displaying an unnatural obsession?

> What nuggets of truth Bob uncovers are usually buried in mountains of
> florid rhetoric. More than anything, he needs to get back on his Ritalin,

I suggest cyanide.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Nov 23 23:20:31 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:20:31 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Sxyza/qC3Tns+Lb/J+MBzg==@bureau42.ml.org>



Timmy Maypole studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so he could 
blow himself (nobody else will).

    _
   {~}
  ( V-) Timmy Maypole
  '|Y|'
  _|||_






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Mon Nov 24 01:34:24 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:34:24 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <FJ1Lge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971124190633.1446B-100000@shirley>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> > have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.
> 
> Your influence as a voter?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!!!

Recall that .au has a very diffrent voteing system to that of the US.  I
have more political inflence [1] on my politions then the adverage US
voter.

[1] As a tackticly voteing swinger.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus  Mon Nov 24 02:10:59 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COMNerthus (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:10:59 +0800
Subject: Choate Doesn't Do His Homework
Message-ID: <199711241003.LAA27231@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>Make up your own mind on the validity of the claims.

I prefer facts when it comes to making up my mind instead of baseless
claims.  For the others on this list who prefer the same, let me set the
record straight...

Jim Choate wrote:
>It has been claimed that the original claim by Bob and anonymous was that
>the first Great Awakening ended by the late 18'th century. This is a
>complete fabrication. 

Yes, and you are the fabricator.  Bob claimed it happened in the 19th 
century (see Fact 1 below).  I claimed it happened in the early 18th 
century (see Fact 3 below).

>                       The original claim put forth clearly references dates
>in the 1800's as the date of the first instance, clearly 50-100 years in
>error from the original Great Awakening that occurred between 1700-1750. 

For the umpteenth time, that was Bob's original claim, not mine.  See above.

>                                                                          In
>my original posting I (thought) made it clear that I didn't quite know when
>the original event occurred but was certain it ended prior to the late
>1700's which would clearly pre-date the original claim. I subsequently took
>the time to provide references for those citation and clearly indicated
>where my memory was in error, and even took the time to explain my confusion
>regarding the 'Beacon on the Hill' movement.  In responce Bob and apparently
>anonymous made it clear that they saw no reason to do 'homework'
>irrespective of the impact of historical accuracy on their claims.

Bullshit!  I did my homework.  You (and Bob) didn't.  But because I am a nice
guy, I share it with you here.

The bottomline is that you screwed up, Jim.  You misread my original post 
(confusing the 18th century for the 1800's) and started this whole chain of 
events.  The facts (not the claims) clearly bear this out.

Nerthus

_________________

T H E   F A C T S

[note: I have edited the attribution lines for clarity, but all posts are
referenced to the Cypherpunk Archive]


F A C T  1: 
<http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0556.html>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0500
Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at best.
>
>Nope. Check it out. As defined in any decent book of American history,
>well, maybe one that hasn't been too "revised" :-),  the "Great Awakening",
>which gave us most of our American-flavored religions, happened in the
>early part of the 19th century, though rumblings started shortly after the
>revolution.


F A C T  2: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0036.html>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:54:37 -0600 (CST)
Jim Choate wrote:
> X-within-URL: http://www.gnbvoc.mec.edu/webquest/PPERRY3.htm
>
>                   2ND GREAT AWAKENING & WESTWARD EXPANSION
>                                        
> 1815-1850


F A C T  3: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0055.html>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:25:01 -0000 
Nerthus wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote [in response to Bob]:
>>After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
>>other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
>>for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.
>
>"THE GREAT AWAKENING
>
>"A conservative reaction against the world view of the new science was 
>bound to follow, and the first half of the eighteenth century witnessed a 
>number of religious revivals in both England and America.  They were 
>sometimes desperate efforts to reassert the old values in the face of the 
>new and, oddly enough, were themselves the direct product of the new cult of 
>feeling, a philosophy which argued that man's greatest pleasure was derived 
>from the good he did for others and that his sympathetic emotions (his joy as 
>well as his tears) should not be contained."
>
> -- The Norton Anthology of American Literature, Third Edition, Volume 1


F A C T  4: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0056.html>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:38:10 -0600 (CST)
Jim Choate wrote:
>Nerthus wrote: 
>> "THE GREAT AWAKENING
>
>No, "The Second Great Awakening" which happened to be followed by "The Third
>Great Awakening".
>
>You didn't read the various posts that I sent out earlier on this did you...

[Once again, yes I did.  1815-1850 does not equal early 18th century!]


F A C T  5: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0143.html>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:54:09 -0600 (CST)
Jim Choate wrote:
>Nerthus Wrote:
>> Uh, Hello?  Your post entitled "1st Great Awakening" describes the exact
>> same thing that I called simply, "The Great Awakening."  It was not, as you
>> say above, the 2nd one.
>
>They are they same if we ignore the fact that there is 50+ years between
>the 1st (1700-1750) and the 2nd (1800-1850).

>I did some looking around as well and other then Norton, yourself, and
>whoever it was that made the original claim all references I can find to
>the Great Awakening refer to the 1700-1750 event(s) as the first one to
>occur in the America's. If I can find my Norton Anthology I'll take a
>look at it, though it is 15+ years old.

[Once again, Norton and myself referenced the Great Awakening to the
early 1700's/18th century: see Fact 3]

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From paparazzi at www.kornet.nm.kr  Mon Nov 24 19:44:16 1997
From: paparazzi at www.kornet.nm.kr (paparazzi at www.kornet.nm.kr)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:44:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: DIANA : The Unrevealed Pics (NEW URL)
Message-ID: <38101371991.CAB42044@press119.com>


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Note : If you want your name permanently REMOVED from this list, please e-mail :
removelist at mlweb.com

For the first time on the internet, here are the UNREVEALED pics of DIANA !
Given the sensitive nature of the materials involved, only adults will access the site.
Go to http://151.196.201.51/diana/



</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov 24 04:10:37 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:10:37 +0800
Subject: Tremble Bureaucrats
Message-ID: <c5c15afd30c5dc42eb513fe655c7a925@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Telegram from "The Situationist International Anthology" edited and
translated by Ken Knabb

17 MAY 1968 / POLITBURO OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE USSR THE KREMLIN
MOSCOW / SHAKE IN YOUR SHOES BUREAUCRATS STOP THE INTERNATIONAL POWER
OF THE WORKERS COUNCILS WILL SOON WIPE YOU OUT STOP HUMANITY WON'T BE
HAPPY TILL THE LAST BUREAUCRAT IS HUNG WITH THE GUTS OF THE LAST
CAPITALIST STOP LONG LIVE THE STRUGGLE OF THE KRONSTADT SAILORS AND OF
THE MAKHNOVSHCHINA AGAINST TROTSKY AND LENIN STOP LONG LIVE THE 1956
COUNCILIST INSURRECTION OF BUDAPEST STOP DOWN WITH THE STATE STOP LONG
LIVE REVOLUTIONARY MARXISM STOP OCCUPATION COMMITTEE OF THE AUTONOMOUS
AND POPULAR SORBONNE

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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Mon Nov 24 04:24:40 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:24:40 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971123174103.24326D-100000@everest.pinn.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971124213606.1568D-100000@shirley>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Jon Galt wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

[...]

> > Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> > have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.
> 
> Then I take it you have almost the exact same worries about contributing 
> to churches as you have about "contributing" to government.

Basicly yes,  Churchers are more like small goverments of there own,
accountable only to there vision of God (wich will be redifined if it
becomes to difficalt to get away with what thay wish.)

> Reminds me of a short exchange I had with a co-worker a couple of years 
> ago.  He had bought a lottery ticket (which I don't do), and it went like 
> this:
> 
> I:  What are your chances of winning?
> he:  What are *yours*?
> I:  Not much different than yours!

One neet thing about knowing a bit of maths (aprat from the ablity to do
cyrto) is that you clearly know the probilities of winning lotto.

ObDisclamer  I am not crising the idear of relgion or spiritality.  More
the way thay are currently implermented in todays socity.  In otherwords
its not God I have a beef with but the peaple who /say/ that there acting
on His wishes.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Nov 24 05:09:58 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:09:58 +0800
Subject: Gov May Tighten Crypto Exports
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971124125950.0072d13c@pop.pipeline.com>



Markoff reports today on a plan to tighten crypto exports
for non-bank financial companies and reactions from
industry trying to loosen them:

   http://www.nytimes.com

Mirrored:

   http://jya.com/tighten.txt







From veronica_65 at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 24 21:19:55 1997
From: veronica_65 at hotmail.com (veronica_65 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:19:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Video Sex
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@hotmail.com>


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From bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us  Mon Nov 24 06:45:24 1997
From: bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us (Brandon Crosby)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:45:24 +0800
Subject: BIOS Help
Message-ID: <199711241422.IAA16823@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>



Hey,

Does anyone know where specs for Award BIOS chips are? I accidentily
locked mine and lost the password.

-Brandon Crosby






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 24 06:48:56 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:48:56 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711241431.IAA12181@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
> From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 00:46:22 EST

> While I have no love for the japs, I mus point out in all fairness that
> FDR was attacking them on all fronts for years: 1) stopping the japs
> from immigrating into the us, 2) cutting off their supplies of raw
> materials (and therefore pushing the japs to conquer the territories
> that would assure the supply). In particular, right before the japs
> attacked pearl harbor, the US embargoed oil shipments to the japs.
> The japs had said previously that they'd consider such an embargo
> as a declaration of war. In particular, their line about p.h. was
> that it wasn't a "sulplise attack", and that the US had previously
> declared war on the japs by imposing the embargo.

The Japanese joined the Tri-partite on Sept. 27, 1940. 5 days later it began
its first attacks in Indo-china, 13 months prior to the attack on Pearl
Harbor. America was shocked by these acts and interpreted them as openly
hostile and tended to strengthen Chian Kai-shek's claims as the legitimate
Chinese authority. Prior to this signing Japanese forces had advanced up the
Kowloon Peninsula to glair through the wire at Hong Kong. Tokyo demanded the
British close the Burma Road and cease all war material trade with China. The
British requested the Americans invoke a general embargo as well as moving
naval forces to the western Pacific. The Americans rejected all these
suggestions. They had moved the Pacific Fleet from the West Coast to Pearl
Harbor. Because of the upcoming election it was felt that such actions would
be interpreted as support for the British colonialism which was politicaly
unacceptable to much of America. The British responded by offering to close
the Burma Road for 3 months (during the monsoon season when there was little
traffic to interrupt). Only in July of 1940, 2 months before Japan signed the
act, did Roosevelt finaly put an embargo in place which covered aviation fuel,
lubricants, and certain scrap iron and steel. In September the regulations
were tightened. Only in Nov. after being re-elected did he include copper,
zinc, brass, oil-drilling equipment, and other strategic materials.

It's important to note that as early as January 1941 the Emporer had ordered
Yamamoto to review the attack on Hawaii. Presumably because he felt
uncomfortable with the entire thing.

So the time line is something like this:

15 months prior to Pearl Harbor the US places an embargo on Japan presumably
because of their aggressive policies.

13 months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor the Japanese sign the
Tri-partite Act.

12 months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor the Emporer gets cold feet
and orders a review of the plan.

> My recollection is that Hitler's generla staff was busily designing the
> plans for invading the US, to be implemented after he  was done with
> the GB and the USSR. They involved invading via his latin american
> allies (notably mexico) and possibly canada. However there was no
> way to sell the war against germany to the american public, except
> as part of a package deal with the war on japs.

Actualy at the time, German invasion through Mexico was felt to be a real
possibility. There was significant build-up of both covert agents in Mexico
as well as military forces along the border during this time.

Note, I would appreciate any references to the regulation of Japanese
nationals transiting through or applying for residence in the US during this
period. Can't say that I've ever seen this issue in anything I've read.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From jongalt at pinn.net  Mon Nov 24 07:01:18 1997
From: jongalt at pinn.net (Jon Galt)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:01:18 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971124000458.0e8f3962@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971124091249.18346C-100000@everest.pinn.net>



> >>         Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
> >> committing a crime.

(Galt)
> >And who is it that gets to decide what is a "crime" and what is not?  

(Frieden)
>         It would appear to me that an illegal in the country is as much in
> the act of committing a crime as a burglar is while in a place other than
> his own. 

I don't dispute this.  If a "crime" is defined as whatever the 
politicos/bureaucrats/hoodlums say it is, then a "crime" is certainly 
being committed.  (Of course there is another definition of crime.)


(Galt)
> >The 
> >politicos, the bureaucrats, the hoodlums in DC and elsewhere who think 
> >they have the right to run the lives of everybody else.

(Frieden)
>         The politicians are responding to voters. The voters who are
> pressuring them are siding with foreign nationals against the interests of
> the United States which is presumed to be their new country of loyalty.

"If voting could change anything, it would have been outlawed long ago."  
Not strictly true.  But if I vote or don't vote...well it's just about 
the same difference as whether I buy a lottery ticket or not.

Don't vote - it only ENCOURAGES them!

> That siding should be sufficient justification remove citizenship and
> return them to the land of dysentary and mui Ninos. 

Citizenship, Schmitizenship.  Granted I don't want to renounce my 
citizenship - at least not at the moment.  But the whole game of riling 
up people's emotions about "citizenship" and "patriotism" is just a bread 
and circuses ruse to keep us focused on something other than what the 
professional control freaks are doing to us.


(Galt)
> >Again I ask the question:
> >What gives the hoodlums in Washington DC the right to draw a line on a 
> >map and control people's travel across that line?
> 
>         The people who made handgun ownership a felony gave them that right. 

The people who made handgun ownership a felony should be sent down a dark 
alley without any means of self-defense.  Perhaps they would gain a small 
glimmer of understanding of the real issues - unless they already 
understand that they are the hoodlums around the corner in the dark 
alley.  In that case....

>         Lawmakers are resonsible for all foreseeable consequences not just
> the intended consequences. 

Lawmakers can hardly be held responsible for tying their own shoes!  I 
suspect you had your satire mode on full when you wrote this.

> 
> 
> -=-=-
> The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt at pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________






From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Nov 24 07:02:13 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:02:13 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199711241450.GAA13728@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias at alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster at remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer at replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer at cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config at nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix at squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config at weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman at cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer at anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config at anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer at bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer at neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa at weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain at notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera at juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config at anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer at replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer at neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 24 07:04:02 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:04:02 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711241502.JAA12382@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:45:35 -0500 (EST)
> From: Jon Galt <jongalt at pinn.net>
> Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism

> being committed.  (Of course there is another definition of crime.)

How about an act which harms a person or their property without their prior
permission?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Mon Nov 24 07:47:12 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:47:12 +0800
Subject: BIOS Help
In-Reply-To: <199711241422.IAA16823@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <199711241517.JAA03651@manifold.algebra.com>



Brandon Crosby wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know where specs for Award BIOS chips are? I accidentily
> locked mine and lost the password.
> 

get the little battery out

	- Igor.






From sunder at brainlink.com  Mon Nov 24 08:32:04 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:32:04 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <199711220640.AAA05293@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971124103333.22344A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>



> Of course, it would be difficult to wash away all the FUD the government
> has disseminated about the Bell case by now.  Still, I think sloshing the
> IRS with a bit of the excrement they have been dispensing to the press
> might not be a bad move.  Perhaps a noisy statement about the Bell case at
> one of those public meetings the IRS has been commanded to hold to discuss
> its past abuses might be a good place to start.

Not so difficult.  Remember that Bell stink-bombed those offices
allegedly.  This could easily be seen as a teenage-mentality prank.
Play that part up, and the ludicrousness of everything else he was
"schemeing", and it makes the IRS look very very bad.  They are pushing
the bad ass terrorist view of him.  We need to push the "he was a
misguided kid" or "this was all fantasy" bit.  Hell everyone whose ever
dealt with the IRS can sympathise with his desire to stink bomb them.

The big bad thing is that they haven't yet sentenced him.  If they do,
it'll be very bad for him, however, it will be that much worse for the
IRS (perhaps another reason for the delays, or it could be they need to
break him so he confesses terrorist plots first...) it can generate "IRS
throws Bevis like kid in Jail for Stink Bombing" headlines.  (Sure, he's
no kid, but make him look like one.)

Perhaps a timeline article of all of the IRS's abuses with this one as the
final point would add to the fuel...

How do we further force them into that position?


> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
Love is the law,
Love under will. (Taxed by the IRS at 30% of course.) 


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Mon Nov 24 08:48:46 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:48:46 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971124102900.846C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:19:18 -0600
From: TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>
Reply-To: 6ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes at ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism

Jim Burnes wrote:
> (ahem...now back to your regularly scheduled silliness)

Jim,
  Did you get enough drugs to share with *everybody*?

Actually I'm fresh out.  I think I'll go back to the coffee
pot and brew some more...

;-)








From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 24 09:18:29 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:18:29 +0800
Subject: Encrypted Economic Speech is Protected
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb09f48773e15@[207.167.93.63]>



Some thoughts on the proposal floating around to require all electronic
transactions be identified and have IRS-endorse tags. I believe this runs
smack up against the First Amendment (and possibly the Fourth), and that
private transactions, contracts, IOUs, and such are essentially untaxable
and nonvisible to the government (practically speaking, a la the situation
today and at all times in the past).

Encrypted financial speech is indistinguishable from encrypted political or
religious or romantic speech, for example, so any requirement that economic
speech be visible to the government for taxation or regulatory purposes
would have an unconstitutional effect on speech in general.

(Not all speech is free of government regulation, obviously. Many examples
of regulated speech: medical claims, speech to minors, obscenity, and so
on. But the regulation of this speech is done "ex post facto," not by prior
restraint or official censorship (where a censor has to approve material),
and not by the government opening letters to determine if they comply with
regulations. Bear this in mind when reading the stuff below.)


At 5:21 AM -0700 11/21/97, John Young wrote:
> Network World, November 15, 1997:
>
> Welcome To Cyberspace. Your Papers Please?

> Under active consideration is a plan to require taxpayers to obtain digital
>IDs for all
> electronic transactions, keeping records that could be examined on audit.
>The IDs
> would be issued by IRS certified agencies, subject to government developed
> standards to ensure that proper identity checks are performed before
>anyone is
> allowed to shop online. The IRS would enforce this by issuing its own digital
> certificates to issuers of digital IDs so that they can electronically
>prove that they
> have received IRS certification. The technology they need to make this
>happen is
> available. All that's missing are the regulations forcing compliance. So,
>stay tuned.
> If you enjoyed the encryption key escrow debate, you'll love this one.


I doubt this would pass court challenges. Yes, I now about "the power to
regulate commerce," but consider these points:

1. There are no specified transaction forms in commerce.  (With only a few
exceptions, such as firearms purchases and some "big ticket" items like
houses, which have complicated sets of contract agreements, waivers, title
checks, etc.)

2. There is generally no requirement whatsoever for identification of a
purchaser, or a seller, for that matter. When Alice buys a disk drive, or a
box of cereal, or a carton of cigarettes, there is no governmental
requirement that she provide a True Name, or any kind of name at all.

(Caveats: It will be tiresome to repeat these caveats, so I will list them
once. Note that they do not mean there is either a requirement for identity
in transactions, or for specific forms of paperwork to be completed. Some
caveats: age credentials may be needed for some purchases (alcohol,
tobacco, firearms, R- or X-rated material, etc.). Firearms generally now
have required paperwork, restrictions, and waiting periods. Pharmaceuticals
have various ID requirements. Courtesy of the "War on Terrorism," airlines
now require ID. Etc.)

3. Many businesses have started asking for ID for more purchases (perhaps
because they think it will lessen liability problems, perhaps because they
just think that all customer-units should be tracked). An example: hotel
rooms. (Used to be one could just pay cash...now ID is demanded at some
hotels.) Some businesses are even demanding Social Security numbers. (And I
don't mean banks or other businesses with IRS reporting requirements...a
local gun range demanded my SS number for their range ID card.)

However, these ID requirements are not the norm, and most merchants will
happily take cash money for any and all purchases.

4. "Receipts" are not even required by law for transactions. Alice and Bob
can complete a transaction without any paperwork. Or with handwritten
notes. Or a Xeroxed receipt form. Or with their Palm Pilots or Newtons, or
whatever.

(Something Ian Goldberg has demonstrated with a Pilot linking to an e-cash
server in Finland, for example.)

5. Transactions may be undertaken over telephone or computer lines, perhaps
to sites in other countries. A variety of receipts, ID systems, etc.

6. True Names may be required for certain transactions so as to ensure
collection of promised monies. Especially in time-lapse payment
arrrangements. Cf. the usual debate about on-line vs. off-line clearing,
and the role of escrow agents.

7. "Money is Speech."  An encrypted message making arrangements for some
transaction may be indistinguishable from other encrypted messages. A law
requiring that all encrypted transmissions be compliant with reporting
requirements would impinge on speech. (It is not possible to distinguish
"money speech" from "political speech," or "other speech" in general. This
is a point both Michael Froomkin and I emphasized in our panel discussion
and papers for CFP '97.)

Also, certain forms of political and private speech would be chilled if
identification of all electronic transactions were to be required. Think of
someone buying information on birth control methods, or books from the John
Birch Society, etc.

(Buyer anonymity is obviously a good thing in many cases. Seller anonymity
is also a good thing in many cases. I constructed for Chaum, who has not
been supporting full, two-way anonymity of late, a plausible scenario where
seller anonymity is required to prevent government sting operations.
Purchasing porn electronically is a current example. One can imagine
Islamic countries using seller traceability in all sorts of bad ways. Only
true "Chaumian" e-cash, not the "new Chaumian" semi-traceable form, meets
goals we are interested in.)

8. Tax collection issues are generally separate from the details of the
transaction. Sales taxes (and VATs) are generally the responsibility of the
seller to collect at the time of the transaction, and to report. The seller
need not know the identity of the buyer to collect a sales tax.

(Of course, part of the reason for the "electronic ID" mentioned in the
article John Young quotes is the difficulty of collecting sales taxes
across national and state boundaries.)

9. In the U.S. at least, there is essentially no attempt to collect sales
taxes on private, two-party transactions.  This is not enforceable at flea
markets, garage sales, and other such markets, let alone in private
transactions between Alice and Bob.

10. To enforce tax collection in such areas, the state would have to become
intrusive at an Orwellian level. (And Alice and Bob could _still_ perform
"unmonitored transactions" in the time-honored ways.)

11. To enforce tax collection when Alice is using computer communications
to contact Bob in Holland, or in Japan, or in cypherspace, the state would
have to become intrusive in all computer communications.

12. The expression "to utter a check" dates back before Eric Hughes' usage
a few years ago (so I was told by M. Froomkin). A check is a kind of
promise to pay.  So is an IOU. So is a promissory (sp?) note. So are many
kinds of contracts.

The state cannot inject itself into all of these private negotiations,
contracts, IOUs, etc., at least not before they are litigated because of
some agreement. (There's a big difference between the state getting
involved because parties to a contract disagree on enforcement, and the
state becoming a third party even in early stages, or when no disagreement
about enforcement exists.)



In summary, much as the government and various advisory panels might wish
for some role in "regulating cyberspace commerce," or in taxing it, any
attempt to mandate the forms of such commerce or to require that certain
identification be used, will directly impinge on the rights of individuals
to communicate as they wish with others.

Practically speaking, the idea is a non-starter. There are so many ways to
skirt the proposed ID systems, using cut-outs, off-shore accounts,
pseudonyms, etc., that enforcement would be a nightmare.

And the system could probably be monkey-wrenched by staging some major
court challenges, where Alice and Bob "break the law" about using digital
IDs...and it turns out in court that they were discussing some clearly
protected subject, like religious beliefs, personal matters, etc.

Once again, the First Amendment provides core protections.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From schear at lvdi.net  Mon Nov 24 09:32:04 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:32:04 +0800
Subject: Mondex help needed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971124001555.20959A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <v03102801b09f60a9c75a@[208.129.55.202]>



At 12:16 AM +0100 11/24/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>I just received one of the Chase Manhattan Mondex cards. Since I've been
>doing a bit of work with smartcards lately
><https://www.cypherpunks.to/scard/>, I'd like to take an extended look at
>this card.
>
>The task would be much easier if I had one or several of the following:
>
>o Mondex card Programer Reference Manual. Somebody on this list must have
>access to one.

Yes, I'd be interested in seeing a copy.  Better yet, I'd be nice is a copy was posted on Eternity.

>o Protocol specifications. Even partial specs would be helpful.

Ditto to above.

>o Any PC software that talks RS-232 to a reader that is meant to hold a
>Mondex card. And of course the reader. If the reader work with non-Mondex
>cards, all the better, because that probably means that the reader is
>generic and the commands can be reverse engineered and emulated.

I talked with Bret Tobay, Tritheim Technology, (813) 943-8684, a Mondex certified developer at COMDEX.  They have a complete line of SC readers (SmartPort DT and LT) and software.  Development kit $495.

BTW, also had a very interesting discussion with the Chipper folks at COMDEX.

--Steve







From declan at pathfinder.com  Mon Nov 24 09:35:28 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:35:28 +0800
Subject: Your Papers, Please
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124115725.29334B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>



I wrote about this report a year ago, and took a critical look at it:

   http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,31,00.html

            The sound bite would have made George Bush proud: "No New
   Internet Taxes."
        At least that's how articles in c|netand the New York Times
   described the recommendations of a Treasury Department report released
   last Thursday. The Times quoted Deputy Treasury Secretary Lawrence
   Summers as saying, "The key message of the report is, no Internet
   taxes." Indeed, the 46-page draft sketches out the Clinton
   administration's tax policy for the Internet and says that no
   additional taxes should be imposed on the Net.
       But, dear reader, you have to read the fine print. Which I did.
   That's where one finds the very clear suggestion that existing tax
   laws must be extended to encompass the Internet -- in the kind of
   clumsy and misinformed way that has typified federal forays into
   legislating online behavior. The theme of the report is clear: Since
   taxation is largely based on physical presence, the nature of the Net
   represents a threat to the taxman. Not surprisingly, the IRS could
   well return the favor by increasing its role in cyberspace.

[...]

-Declan


On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:

>  Network World, November 15, 1997:
> 
>  Welcome To Cyberspace. Your Papers Please? 
> 
>  About a year ago, the Treasury Department issued a little-noticed discussion 
>  document entitled "Selected Tax Policy Implications of Global Electronic 
>  Commerce" (www.ustreas.gov). Beavering away in obscurity, these unelected 
>  technocrats have almost finished turning the broad "implications" into
> detailed 
>  regulations. Like most tax rulings, these regulations require no further 
>  congressional action to have the force of law. So, while rehabilitated Clinton 
>  apparatchik Ira Magaziner was out mesmerizing the digerati with his 
>  "Framework for Global Electronic Commerce," promising free markets and no new 
>  taxes, the green-eyeshade boys were quietly laying the groundwork to launch
> the 
>  IRS into cyberspace. ...
> 
>  The classic strategy of forcing reporting requirements on key "taxing
> points," such
>  as banks, clearinghouses and other financial institutions, is not likely to
> work as
>  the need for intermediation on the Internet will be vastly reduced. In many
> ways,
>  that's the whole point of electronic commerce. Any reporting burdens must be
>  pushed out to the end points of each transaction. How will this be done?
> This is
>  where Big Brother may arrive big time. 
> 
>  Under active consideration is a plan to require taxpayers to obtain digital
> IDs for all
>  electronic transactions, keeping records that could be examined on audit.
> The IDs
>  would be issued by IRS certified agencies, subject to government developed
>  standards to ensure that proper identity checks are performed before anyone is
>  allowed to shop online. The IRS would enforce this by issuing its own digital
>  certificates to issuers of digital IDs so that they can electronically
> prove that they
>  have received IRS certification. The technology they need to make this
> happen is
>  available. All that's missing are the regulations forcing compliance. So,
> stay tuned.
>  If you enjoyed the encryption key escrow debate, you'll love this one. 
> 
>  Bill Frezza
> 
> -----
> 
> 






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Mon Nov 24 09:48:18 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:48:18 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b09e53a4b922@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971124104803.9915F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>




> 
> The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
> arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.
> 
> --Tim May
> 

Chuckle. The "war" of 1812 was nearly as much of an internal political 
struggle over the form the U.S. gov't was to take as was the "civil war."

"State's rights" were a key issue, with most of New England strongly 
opposed to the "war", which was causing New Englanders severe economic 
loss to to blockades which prevented their trade with England (the enemy).

Many did not wish to add additional states beyond the origianl seaboard 
13, which would have doomed the new nation to being a British dependant.

There was great debate over the form a representative government was to 
take, with some supporting the idea that the "common" man was too 
ignorant to perceive long-term issues; some wanted a "house of lords" and 
"house of commons" as in England, with membership to the "upper" house, 
the Senate, restricted to an Elitist class. The Monarchists still had a 
great deal of support in parts of the original thirteen states.

The western states, such as Tennessee, were more in favor of supporting a 
combined "Federal" action against Britain than were the seaboard 
colonies, as the British were arming the local Indian tribes and inciting 
uprisings in an effort to block westward expansion. Folks in Tennessee 
wanted Madison to invade Canada to choke off the supply route.

French-speaking New Orleans didn't much care for having been sold to a 
foreign power, and had closer ties to Spanish Florida than to its new 
masters in Washington. Andrew Jackson's army did not receive a very warm 
welcome when he came to "defend" the city form the British; he had 
difficulty obtaining supplies, and had to declare martial law to maintain 
control of the city.

The trade issues and the "kidnapping" of American merchant seamen are 
given as "official" reasons for the conflict, but there were many other 
reasons as well.

Without the War of 1812, the "United States" as a single entity may never 
have emerged, and a loose coalition of states may have remained in its 
place, probably as a British dependant. Britian would have likely 
succeeded in regulating western movement, at least in the northern part 
of North America, and we'd all be talking like Phil.

The War of 1812 had arguably as great an impact on the Federal vs. States 
issue as did the Civil War. Interesting to see you "justifiying" this. :)  

-r.w.






From declan at well.com  Mon Nov 24 09:59:07 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:59:07 +0800
Subject: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007801b09f6380288a@[204.179.142.80]>



*********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1594,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
November 24, 1997

Anonymity At Any Cost
by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

        When Lance Cottrell created an easy-to-use anonymous e-mail service
	back in 1994, he feared that nobody would use it. "I used to be
	worried that people didn't want anonymity enough to pay for it,"
	he says. Today his company, Infonex, boasts 3,000 customers who
	pay $60 a year to browse the Web without leaving behind digital
	footprints.

        Which leaves Cottrell with new and more troubling worries. The
	mushrooming popularity of his Web-based "Anonymizer" (he also
	offers a slower, free version) has placed him at the heart of
	an explosive Internet debate over the limits of free speech and
	privacy online. Is Infonex - or Cottrell personally - responsible
	if a user breaks the law and can't be traced? Should the
	government restrict anonymous remailers or untraceable Web
	browsing?

        Last weekend Cottrell and I joined 40 lawyers, technologists and
	academics at a conference sponsored by the American Association
	for the Advancement of Science. Our charge: to puzzle through
	some of the questions surrounding anonymous communication.

[...]







From declan at pathfinder.com  Mon Nov 24 10:06:51 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 02:06:51 +0800
Subject: Scientology war update
In-Reply-To: <aca0fceb47%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124123639.29334G-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>



Don't mean to spoil the fun, but that article's over two years old.

Though I hear Helena K is still sending nastygrams. At the anonymity conf
over the weekend, I talked to a lawyer who knew and met her. He called her
"mousy," among other things.

-Declan


On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Tim Griffiths wrote:

> Wired has a good article on how the war of words on alt.scientology.religion
> has split over into dawn raids and hardware seizures:
> 
> http://www.wired.com/wired/3.12/features/alt.scientology.war.html
> 
> If this is what can be achieved, think what can happen when the
> government _really_ puts its back it suppression. Time to PGP every
> file I own...
> 
> Tim
> -- 
> Dr Tim Griffiths is in real life t.griffiths at ic.ac.uk
> Vmail on (0)-1392-264197
> Public key available - finger tim at tim01.ex.ac.uk
> 
> 			- Nothing is trivial - 
> 
> 






From fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU  Mon Nov 24 10:14:48 1997
From: fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU (Fabrice Planchon)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 02:14:48 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711240521.XAA10697@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971124130413.42897@math.princeton.edu>



On Sun, Nov 23, 1997 at 11:21:48PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Japan beat the shit out of Russia in 1903. Had it not been for Richard

Reread what you quoted below, and you will see that I don't want to
debate over wether or not in a frontal clash between USSR and Japan the
japanese army wins or not. I will grant you they win the first
battle. The same way the germans won for a while... And even admittedly
if you destroy the organised forces from your enemy, it doesn't mean you
are done. You are only if you manage to get the population on your
side. Dimitri makes a very good point in his post, saying that the
germans fucked up in the west, as they could have taken great advantage
from being seen as liberators. As for "Moscow fall, Stalin  fall",
remember Napoleon ?

> > Somehow your ability to expand durably
> > depends on your ability to keep your new possessions. While occupying
> > France, using a satellite gouvernment, isn't that hard, occupying Russia
> > (for the germans) and China (for the japanese) is another, quite
> > impossible, task if you don't get the population support (or, at least,
> > indifference). So, if Hitler had known better, he would have stuck to
> > western europe...
> 
> Had it not been for the oil, food, and weapons we shipped Britian he would
> have owned Europe in toto. It is clear from Hitlers earliest writings that
> he had full intention of taking Russia. Had Stalin not had Sorge's

Yeah, he was stupid. That's my point ;-)

> Rim *and* keep America out of the conflict. China was beaten at the time.
> The only thing keeping the Japanese from taking over the entire country was
> two things. Their interest in expanding southward and eastward in the
> Pacific to gain more oil and resource reserves (Manchuria's oil was critical
> but no sufficient) and the fact that they simply didn't have enough men to
> do both, expand north/west and south/east. The Japanese chose to go

Ultimatly this cost them the game. Not enough men. Had the situation
last a little longer, japanese occupation forces in China would have
faced some serious problems (they were already, actually).

> Mussolini may not have been fond of Hitler but he certainly admired and
> respected the man, or at least that is what Ciano's diaries indicate.

Well, in 34 it wasn't yet the case: when there were serious rumors that
Hitler might be tempted to invade Austria, Mussolini moved troops close
to his autrian border. He was a close friend of the austrian prime
minister of the time (later to be killed...). How Mussolini changed his
mind is a mix of his internal situation in Italy, and his rejection by
the rest of Europe...

> peoples of north and south America sit untouched even if they hadn't planned
> to get the US involved. Consider where the only two locations for platinum
> are located and the impact of that metal on high-technology.* Further
> consider, had Germany and Japan worked in concert a little closer they could
> have had 90% of all the oil on the planet. You think the oil shortages of
> the 70's were a bitch. In such a world the US would not have been the first
> on the moon (I suspect we wouldn't even be in the running). We would not in
> all probability have developed the atom bomb in time; Germany would have
> inhereted all the work the British did and considering that at the time they
> had all the heavy water on the planet they would have had a definite
> advantage. Take that and put things such as the ME-262, the New York Blitz
> Bomber, the V2, the Tri-partite signatories expansionistic dreams, the
> picture becomes quite nasty.
> 
> And if you think for one minute that the US could have stood against Europe,
> Asia, Africa, and Australia combined under some sort of combined assault
> with the technological edge going to the tri-partites you are sorely
> misinformed.

I think you are the one playing games, not me. Once again, I don't
disagree with you on the fact that the US made the right decision
anyway. But had they waited until Hitler was knocking on their door it
wouldn't probably have changed the issue by much. (I would be a native
german-speaker, perhaps...)

                         F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735








From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Mon Nov 24 10:33:09 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 02:33:09 +0800
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <Sxyza/qC3Tns+Lb/J+MBzg==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971124110430.90838A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>



On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy Maypole studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so he could 
> blow himself (nobody else will).
> 
>     _
>    {~}
>   ( V-) Timmy Maypole
>   '|Y|'
>   _|||_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 24 11:10:07 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:10:07 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b09e53a4b922@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280db09f70fec3a4@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:12 AM -0700 11/24/97, Rabid Wombat wrote:
>>
>> The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
>> arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.
>>
>> --Tim May
>>
>
>Chuckle. The "war" of 1812 was nearly as much of an internal political
>struggle over the form the U.S. gov't was to take as was the "civil war."

That's why I was careful to say, "arguably." It may or may not have been a
justifiable war, but at least it involved foreign powers acting on or
against actual domestic, contental soil. Something the various later wars
did not directly involve.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 24 11:30:02 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:30:02 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711241930.NAA13443@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:04:13 -0500
> From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)

> Reread what you quoted below, and you will see that I don't want to
> debate over wether or not in a frontal clash between USSR and Japan the
> japanese army wins or not. I will grant you they win the first
> battle. The same way the germans won for a while... And even admittedly
> if you destroy the organised forces from your enemy, it doesn't mean you
> are done. You are only if you manage to get the population on your
> side. Dimitri makes a very good point in his post, saying that the
> germans fucked up in the west, as they could have taken great advantage
> from being seen as liberators. As for "Moscow fall, Stalin  fall",
> remember Napoleon ?

Napolean never took Moscow, he was stopped - just like Hitler - at the
gates. The closest either French or German forces got was to look at the
spires of the Kremlin. Beyond that similarity there are a wide range of
differences between the situation. The fact remains that had Stalin *not*
been able to withdraw troops from the Chinese border he would not have been
able to keep Stalingrad or Moscow. Further, the *only* reason that Stalin
could afford to do that was because Sorge indicated that the Japanese were
interested in other goals at the time. Oh, regarding Napolean, the reason
that he couldn't take Moscow was because troops, called Cossacks, were moved
from the east to the west.

> > Had it not been for the oil, food, and weapons we shipped Britian he would
> > have owned Europe in toto. It is clear from Hitlers earliest writings that
> > he had full intention of taking Russia. Had Stalin not had Sorge's
> 
> Yeah, he was stupid. That's my point ;-)

Hitler may have been a lot of things, stupid was not one of them.

> Ultimatly this cost them the game. Not enough men. Had the situation
> last a little longer, japanese occupation forces in China would have
> faced some serious problems (they were already, actually).

Such as? The situation in China at the time was that a variety of warlords
were spending more time fighting each other than the Japanese. China at that
time was not a cohesive entity. The reason that Japan lost WWII was that at
no point did they have strategic supplies of oil for longer than 5-9 months
*and* the US waged unrestricted submarine warfare in the Pacific destroying
what merchant marine the Japanese had so they could not take advantage of
the oil refineries in such nifty places as Palembang, Sumatra (whose taking
in Feb. 1942 was the first use of Japanese paratroops, all 700 were wiped
out). It was not because they didn't have the men.

> Well, in 34 it wasn't yet the case: when there were serious rumors that
> Hitler might be tempted to invade Austria, Mussolini moved troops close
> to his autrian border. He was a close friend of the austrian prime
> minister of the time (later to be killed...). How Mussolini changed his
> mind is a mix of his internal situation in Italy, and his rejection by
> the rest of Europe...

In 1934 Mussolini invaded Abyssinia all on his own, Hitler took the
opportunity to march into the Rhineland while the rest of the world stood
aghast at the use of modern weapons against stone-age tribesmen. The next
thing Mussolini did was send troops to help Franco, troops which fought
right along side Germans troops. On Nov. 30, 1938 Ciano made a comment in
the Fascist Chamber about 'natural aspiration' and the members stood yelling
"Corsica, Tunis, Nice!". The talk of taking Nice obviously did nothing to 
settle the French's worries. In July, 1938 5 billion lire was asigned to
modernize the Italian forces. The Abyssinian campaign cost 13 billion lire
and tied up 300,000 Italian troops. The help in Spain cost hardware and
involved another 50,000 troops who were still there. When the Spanish Civil
War ended in 1939 he invaded Albania, which was an Italian protectorate. By
this time Italy as allied strongly to Germany in the minds of just about
everyone. Around 12 August, 1939 after Ciano discovered the intended invasion
of Poland and passed this to Mussolini did there become a measure of doubt in
Mussolini's mind that perhaps he had picked the wrong allies.

> I think you are the one playing games, not me. Once again, I don't
> disagree with you on the fact that the US made the right decision
> anyway. But had they waited until Hitler was knocking on their door it
> wouldn't probably have changed the issue by much. (I would be a native
> german-speaker, perhaps...)

If the US had waited until Hitler began dropping bombs on New York and
firing V2's from submarines 20 miles off the coast while at the same time
Japan was doing the same sorts of things, with a nice base at Pearl Harbor,
*and* you claim the US could have stood the test then I can only say you
are confused at best.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 11:42:40 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:42:40 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711241935.UAA23852@basement.replay.com>



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Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Of course, all the pseudoconstitutionalist claptrap about the 16th
>being unconstitutional is, of course, that. The constitution's what
>the Supreme Court says it is, unfortunately.

Personally, I do not believe in the infallibility of the Supreme
Court.  The people on the Court are just people.  They can make
mistakes.  They can have ulterior motives.  They can be corrupt.

The Constitution is understood by many people to be something like a
charter in which the people of the United States granted the
government certain powers, reserving all others to themselves.

The Constitution has meaning.  The Supreme Court may not amend this
meaning, it may only interpret it.  When the Court makes a decision
which is obviously not consistent with the meaning of the Constitution
it is reasonable to say that the Court is in error.  In an extreme
situation many people would say that it is reasonable for the people
of the United States to revoke the Charter granted to this government.

Consider this scenario: Chief Justice Rehnquist appears in Court
wearing a tutu.  He declares that the Court has just decided that in
emergency situations it is proper and Constitutional for the Supreme
Court to take control of the government to protect democracy.

Would it be reasonable to say that the Constitution had changed or
would it be reasonable to put the Chief Justice in the loony bin?

Let's take an example from history.  The United States decides to
enter World War I.  People who are opposed to this war and to the
draft make speeches opposing both policies.  A law is passed
forbidding this activity.  The Chief Justice declares that speech may
be controlled if it is akin to "yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded movie
house."  Following this logic, the government jails people who speak
against the War and the draft.  One of these people, Eugene Debs,
campaigns from jail for the Presidency and gets about a million votes.

Would it be proper to conclude that speaking against the War may be
punished Constitutionally or that the Court had failed to carry out
its duties?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 11:49:56 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:49:56 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711241934.UAA23715@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Of course, all the pseudoconstitutionalist claptrap about the 16th
>being unconstitutional is, of course, that. The constitution's what
>the Supreme Court says it is, unfortunately.

Personally, I do not believe in the infallibility of the Supreme
Court.  The people on the Court are just people.  They can make
mistakes.  They can have ulterior motives.  They can be corrupt.

The Constitution is understood by many people to be something like a
charter in which the people of the United States granted the
government certain powers, reserving all others to themselves.

The Constitution has meaning.  The Supreme Court may not amend this
meaning, it may only interpret it.  When the Court makes a decision
which is obviously not consistent with the meaning of the Constitution
it is reasonable to say that the Court is in error.  In an extreme
situation many people would say that it is reasonable for the people
of the United States to revoke the Charter granted to this government.

Consider this scenario: Chief Justice Rehnquist appears in Court
wearing a tutu.  He declares that the Court has just decided that in
emergency situations it is proper and Constitutional for the Supreme
Court to take control of the government to protect democracy.

Would it be reasonable to say that the Constitution had changed or
would it be reasonable to put the Chief Justice in the loony bin?

Let's take an example from history.  The United States decides to
enter World War I.  People who are opposed to this war and to the
draft make speeches opposing both policies.  A law is passed
forbidding this activity.  The Chief Justice declares that speech may
be controlled if it is akin to "yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded movie
house."  Following this logic, the government jails people who speak
against the War and the draft.  One of these people, Eugene Debs,
campaigns from jail for the Presidency and gets about a million votes.

Would it be proper to conclude that speaking against the War may be
punished Constitutionally or that the Court had failed to carry out
its duties?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From ppomes at Qualcomm.com  Mon Nov 24 11:53:55 1997
From: ppomes at Qualcomm.com (Paul Pomes)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:53:55 +0800
Subject: Scientology war update
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124123639.29334G-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <4269.880400708@zelkova.qualcomm.com>



Speaking of Scientologists, last week's episode of Millenium, almost a
self-parody, had a wonderful sendup of "Selfologists" and its founder
"Onan Gupta".

/pbp
--
No one has the right to destroy another person's belief by demanding empirical
evidence.
 
                -- Ann Landers, columnist and a director of Handgun Control Inc






From frissell at panix.com  Mon Nov 24 13:06:15 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 05:06:15 +0800
Subject: Encrypted Economic Speech is Protected
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971124154454.007526f8@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:08 AM 11/24/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Some thoughts on the proposal floating around to require all electronic
>transactions be identified and have IRS-endorse tags. I believe this runs
>smack up against the First Amendment (and possibly the Fourth), and that
>private transactions, contracts, IOUs, and such are essentially untaxable
>and nonvisible to the government (practically speaking, a la the situation
>today and at all times in the past).

Not to mention GATT and the WTO.  I don't think the US can unilaterally 
mandate a particular electronic commerce scheme and force it on electronic 
merchants in Mongolia (the freest trading country on earth these days).  

That's why when Pat said GATT would destroy U.S. soveriegnty, I said "I sure 
hope so."  

>3. Many businesses have started asking for ID for more purchases (perhaps
>because they think it will lessen liability problems, perhaps because they
>just think that all customer-units should be tracked). An example: hotel
>rooms. (Used to be one could just pay cash...now ID is demanded at some
>hotels.) 

Though most hotels actually want credit cards and believe that credit cards 
are a form of ID even though they most certainly are not.

I was asked for a picture ID before being shown an apartment.  Real Estate 
agent concern about crime directed at them?

>Some businesses are even demanding Social Security numbers. (And I
>don't mean banks or other businesses with IRS reporting requirements...a
>local gun range demanded my SS number for their range ID card.)

"I'm Canadian.  I don't have an SS#."  Works for everything that can be 
purchased or joined by Canadians in the US.

>However, these ID requirements are not the norm, and most merchants will
>happily take cash money for any and all purchases.

Very true.

>4. "Receipts" are not even required by law for transactions. Alice and Bob
>can complete a transaction without any paperwork. Or with handwritten
>notes. Or a Xeroxed receipt form. Or with their Palm Pilots or Newtons, or
>whatever.

The Finanzia Guardia (pardon my Italian spelling) (Financial Police) in Italy 
enforce the Italian requirement for receipts by fining customers who can't 
produce them.  Designed to back up VAT collection.  I noticed that most 
receipts there were generated by PCs under control of shopkeepers.  Good 
opportunities for keeping double books.  I wonder if Italy mandates POS and 
accounting software?

>9. In the U.S. at least, there is essentially no attempt to collect sales
>taxes on private, two-party transactions.  This is not enforceable at flea
>markets, garage sales, and other such markets, let alone in private
>transactions between Alice and Bob.

Though the New Jersey Gestapo *have* been attending computer, collector, etc. 
shows and demanding resale certificates, estimating revenue based on 
displayed stock, and seizing stock if not paid.  (Not recommended at gun 
shows -- which have been driven out of NJ in any case).  Hard work for the 
revenooers, though.

>12. The expression "to utter a check" dates back before Eric Hughes' usage
>a few years ago (so I was told by M. Froomkin). A check is a kind of
>promise to pay.  So is an IOU. So is a promissory (sp?) note. So are many
>kinds of contracts.

Uttering checks is from the dawn of commercial paper under common law.  I'm 
sure Eric read it in one of the banking books he likes to read.

>Practically speaking, the idea is a non-starter. There are so many ways to
>skirt the proposed ID systems, using cut-outs, off-shore accounts,
>pseudonyms, etc., that enforcement would be a nightmare.

No kidding.

DCF
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From declan at well.com  Mon Nov 24 14:56:23 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 06:56:23 +0800
Subject: Free speech and jlist groups press conf on ratings (12/1)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124142946.20021J-100000@well.com>





                         ** MEDIA ADVISORY **

           Press Conference on Internet Ratings and Filtering


WHO:   Internet Free Expression Alliance (IFEA)

WHAT:  Press conference announcing the formation of IFEA, a coalition of
organizations devoted to the continuation of the Internet as a forum for
open expression and to identify new threats to free expression and First
Amendment values on the Internet, whether legal or technological.

WHEN:  Monday, December 1, 12:30 p.m.

WHERE: First Amendment Lounge
       National Press Club
       14th & F Streets, N.W.
       Washington, DC

WHY:   To address the free speech issues raised by proposals to rate
and filter "objectionable" content on the Internet.  These proposals
will be featured prominently at the White House-endorsed "Internet
Online Summit" that opens on December 2.  Representatives of the
following IFEA member organizations will be available for comment:

       American Civil Liberties Union
       American Society of Newspaper Editors
       Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility
       Electronic Frontier Foundation
       Electronic Privacy Information Center
       Feminists for Free Expression
       Institute for Global Communications
       National Campaign for Freedom of Expression
       National Coalition Against Censorship
       Society of Professional Journalists

CONTACT:

David Sobel, EPIC: 202-544-9240
David Greene, NCFE: 202-393-2787
Emily Whitfield, ACLU: 212-549-2566


..









From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Nov 24 15:17:19 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:17:19 +0800
Subject: Mondex help needed
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b09f60a9c75a@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971125000014.22620A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> BTW, also had a very interesting discussion with the Chipper folks at COMDEX.

Tell me more. While I have full specifications for Chipknip, it is
extremely difficult to get anything on Chipper. Unless you work for IBM.
BTW, Chipknip (Proton)  will be supported in the next revision of
SIO/STEST, the Cypherpunks Smartcard Developer Association's award winning
software :-) 

We are currently at 1.9, with updates coming out about once a week. Yes, I
know I need to put up a CHANGES file on the site.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 24 15:25:39 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:25:39 +0800
Subject: SigFiles
In-Reply-To: <4269.880400708@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <347A0766.11DC@dev.null>



>                 -- Ann Landers, columnist and a director of Handgun Control Inc

Isn't "Handgun Contol, Inc." the place where they align your gun-sights
for free?






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov 24 15:28:36 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:28:36 +0800
Subject: Free Crime! (Take One...) / Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed
Message-ID: <6q4nduOcKfiNfFLr+CyOdw==@bureau42.ml.org>



Again


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> > Of course, it would be difficult to wash away all the FUD the government
> > has disseminated about the Bell case by now. 

> Not so difficult.  Remember that Bell stink-bombed those offices
> allegedly.  This could easily be seen as a teenage-mentality prank.
> Play that part up, and the ludicrousness of everything else he was
> "schemeing", and it makes the IRS look very very bad.  They are pushing
> the bad ass terrorist view of him.

One way of looking at it is that a greater crime than he committed
has already been 'paid for'. Whatever they add to his sentence will
serve to increase the value of the 'gift certificate' Bell is buying
for some lucky CypherPunk for Christmas.

Since much of the authority of society revolves around guilt/shame,
then a crime already paid for allows us to committ it without guilt.
e.g. - Tim McVeigh

I am tired of the whiners who cry out for the public hanging of
every person deemed guilty by the justice system of 12 million
jurors whipped into an emotional frenzy by the press and the
government spin doctors, and who then bitch and moan when some
servant of the Tao, such as Terrible Timmy, exercises the other
side of the two-edged sword.
Since McVeigh was a dead-duck anyway, it is a shame that he didn't
just stand up in front of the jury with a history book and a
calculator, do some figuring, and say, "By my calculations, not
only is my crime already paid for, but 'we the people' still have
plenty of 'credit' left on the account."

~~~
YouCanBetYourSweetAssIAmSending*This*PostAnonymouslyMonger







From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 24 15:37:04 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:37:04 +0800
Subject: Fear & Gloating in Tennessee
Message-ID: <347A0C67.6724@dev.null>



>From CNN(AP):
Web posted at: 10:47 a.m. EST (1547 GMT) 

                     FRANKLIN, Tennessee (AP) --
                     Three books by photographers
                     Jock Sturges and David Hamilton
                     have received some critical praise,
                     but a Tennessee county grand jury
                     claims they may violate state
                     obscenity laws. 

                     "The Age of Innocence" by
                     Hamilton and "The Last Day of Summer" and "Radiant
Identities"
                     by Sturges were cited in the indictment against
Barnes & Noble's
                     Brentwood store. 

                     The obscenity charges focus on photographs of nude
children in
                     the books. 

I certainly hope that the prosecutor, judge and jury didn't look
at those pictures. Probably turn them all into pedophiles, eh?

                     Barnes & Noble was served with a summons to appear
in
                     Williamson County Criminal Court on December 1.
Jerome
                     Melson, an attorney for the Tennessee Press
Association, said
                     interpretations of what is obscene vary widely and
he believes the
                     grand jury is not looking to put anyone in jail. 

                     "They're probably just looking for a fine... to get
the bookstore to
                     change its manner," he said. "In other words,
change your shelves."

Oh! Voluntary/Mandatory under threat of imprisonment...

Is it time for some new NewSpeak?
   Volundated -- Voluntary/Mandated
   Volundatory -- Voluntary/Mandatory
   Volutelse -- Voluntary/Or else!

                     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights
reserved.
                     This material may not be published, broadcast,
rewritten, or
                     redistributed.

Sure it can. I just did it...

TruthMonger






From goddesshera at juno.com  Mon Nov 24 16:06:42 1997
From: goddesshera at juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:06:42 +0800
Subject: where to download pgp 5.0 for Linux?
Message-ID: <19971124.164146.2839.1.goddesshera@juno.com>



where to download pgp 5.0 for Linux?
(for free)


This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera at juno.com>.






From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 24 16:15:05 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:15:05 +0800
Subject: Put it where the SUN don't shine...
Message-ID: <347A1225.68B2@dev.null>



The Microsoft spoofers, who work for Palladium Interactive
software, didn't let the feel-good fest rain on their parade. They
said their tiny Larkspur, Calif. company drew lots of interest in
their parody of Microsoft's upcoming Windows 98 operating
program, which goes by a name that can't be mentioned here
because of its sexual connotations. 

The program includes games such as Billagotchi, an on-screen
"cyber pet" that people need to feed money and tend to his needs
or else he throws a tantrum. 

For example, the parody includes an icon for "MS Exploiter" that
links to a Palladium Web site. And in a skit based on Star Trek,
cartoon characters from the Star Ship Explorer blow up the SS
Netscape. 

"The party line is if you don't have a booth, you can't hand out
literature," said Rebecca Murphy, director of product marketing
for the firm.
                     
"We're just trying to have some fun."






From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Nov 24 16:40:33 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:40:33 +0800
Subject: Update On Jim Bell
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971125002759.006e8104@pop.pipeline.com>



Just a bit of new info about recent court actions, which is 
documented at:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock4.htm

In short, on November 17 Jim's attorney (D') and the prosecutor
(P') submitted Sentencing Memoranda to the Court. On November
21 (the previously scheduled sentencing date), D' presented a 
Supplement to Sentencing Memo. Both of D's memos were 
Filed Under Seal, but not the P's.

On November 21 the Court acks receipt of the sentencing
memoranda and a Pre-Sentencing Report (PSR) from the Probation 
Officer (PO). There was argument. The Court will present counsel with 
additional questions on sentencing. The sentencing is postponed 
(continued) until December 12. Jim, jail (D' remanded).

Leg. wiz. w'll now expl. ths is just jive just. in No. 1 Amer.







From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 24 17:08:52 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:08:52 +0800
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9711-24-cyberhate.web.site.ap-
Message-ID: <199711250105.TAA14628@einstein.ssz.com>



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   Barnes and Noble 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Click here to see the Q phone from QUALCOMM, the highest
   evolution of digital. rule
   
                   CIVIL RIGHTS WEB SITE TO FIGHT CYBERHATE
                                       
      CivilRights.org November 24, 1997
     Web posted at: 6:01 p.m. EST (2301 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (AP) -- Responding to President Clinton's call to fight
     hate crime, the nation's largest civil rights coalition and a
     regional Bell telephone company have created a Web site designed to
     combat Internet hate speech.
     
     The Leadership Conference on Civil Rights said Monday the site --
     www.civilrights.org -- was developed and will be maintained for two
     years with a $100,000 contribution from Bell Atlantic.
     
     Clinton issued a call two weeks ago at a White House Conference on
     Hate Crimes to find ways to fight the problem.
     
     "You are providing an antidote to cyberhate," he told the civil
     rights coalition in a letter read by Transportation Secretary Rodney
     Slater at a news conference on Monday.
     
     Wade Henderson, LCCR executive director, said the idea to create a
     Web site was triggered by a proliferation of Internet hate speech by
     groups such as the Ku Klux Klan and White Aryan Resistance.
     
     Bell Atlantic chairman Ray Smith cited a study by the
     Anti-Defamation League showing the number of hate sites on the
     Internet has doubled to 250 in the past year. He called the new site
     "an antidote for poison."
     
     The idea is to "counter the frightening espousal of hatred and
     violence against Americans because of their race, gender, religious
     or sexual orientation," he said.
     
     Henderson said hate groups have become more sophisticated in
     communicating their doctrines and recruiting. "Instead of the
     street, they recruit on the net," he explained.
     
     There is also concern for the First Amendment protection of free
     speech, Henderson said. "This Web site will respond to hate with
     information and competing ideas without seeking to restrict Internet
     speech."
     
     In addition to providing information on hate crimes around the
     country, the site will explain various strategies to address those
     crimes and offer materials for young people, parents and teachers to
     encourage diversity.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related stories:
     * AllPolitics: Clinton denounces Denver's racial violence - November
       22, 1997
     * Denver seeks answers in apparent wave of hate crime - November 21,
       1997
     * Hate case raises Internet free speech issues - November 9, 1997
       
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * CivilRights.org - Leadership Conference on Civil Rights
     * Bell Atlantic
     * American Communication Association WWW Archives
          + Freedom of Speech
          + Human Rights Issues
            
     
     
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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Nov 24 17:12:13 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:12:13 +0800
Subject: Gov May Tighten Crypto Exports
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971124125950.0072d13c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971125014703.22845A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



This was one of the worst researched articles on crypto policy I've read
in a long time. In fact, it is so full of errors, I can't tell what
factual events it is actually attempting to report on. 

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:

> Markoff reports today on a plan to tighten crypto exports
> for non-bank financial companies and reactions from
> industry trying to loosen them:
> 
>    http://www.nytimes.com
> 
> Mirrored:
> 
>    http://jya.com/tighten.txt
> 
> 
> 


-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 17:34:06 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:34:06 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711250120.CAA06322@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>Once again, if 1812 the [British] invasion [of the United States] actually occured,...

They burned the White House to the ground.  Does that count?  ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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FC6atL8fO2TUHDVz47TV57vvBcThJogcUKxVloLgaQTxhoTFlY/VW70T9kvS3VWl
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S+qeBKMowlkvi42CtpBFQ/8MtmEZnaiCQof4IcUgOfTFYnfjcJfmRA==
=P7qe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 17:38:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:38:14 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <199711250129.CAA08070@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Concord is clearly proof that Britain didn't understand that they
>couldn't control America anymore and acted on that misinformation. It
>was *their* problem, as the revolution bore out.

Britain would probably have been capable of controlling America had
France not intervened.

France provided desperately needed powder and money to the
revolutionaries.  During the siege of Boston it was seriously proposed
that bow and arrows be employed due to powder shortages.  Spears were
actually prepared for use!

France also provided officers to staff the poorly trained and
organized American armies, troops, and even a navy.

The final victory at Yorktown was largely a French operation, for
example.  Here is Richard N. Rosenfeld's take on it from "American
Aurora":

Page 418: "There are approximately 32,000 French soldiers and sailors
at Yorktown, four to six times the number of George Washington's army,
and more than twice, if not three times, the number of all Americans
at Yorktown, including militia.  Indeed, there are many more French
soldiers on the ground than American Continentals.  The entire
blockading force at sea is French."

Page 419: "Of French and American forces which encircle Charles
Cornwallis at Yorktown, the naval part of this circle consists
strictly of French warships (more than thirty) and sailors (nineteen
thousand!).  America has no warships in this naval blockade."

Page 419: "Orchestrating the siege at Yorktown is strictly a matter
for the French.  Washington has no experience in siege warfare.  The
French perfected the art.  Rochambeau has taken part in fourteen
sieges!  General Lebigne, the Chevalier Du Portail, and other French
officers and engineers take charge of siege operations."

Page 420: "Two French soldiers die for each American death at
Yorktown.  Two French soldiers are wounded for each American wound at
Yorktown.  French casualties exceed 250."

Page 421: "British General Charles O'Hara, acting on behalf of General
Charles Cornwallis (who has pleaded illness), attempts to surrender
Cornwallis' (sic) sword to French Commander in Chief General the Comte
de Rochambeau, but Rochambeau magnanimously refuses to accept the
surrender weapon and directs the British general to George
Washington."

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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/uT8emxWak0aPAAynug6ZGPU3CXdRZ3JsWKB6a2s3kVgGiIQ2oLxrg==
=ZZoe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 17:49:04 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:49:04 +0800
Subject: Iraq and computers
Message-ID: <199711250133.CAA09163@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Michael Wilson wrote that Reuters wrote:
>WASHINGTON (November 23, 1997 02:35 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -
>To conceal its deadliest arms from U.N. weapons inspectors, Iraq has
>increasingly turned to U.S.-made computers sold in Baghdad since the
>end of the 1991 Gulf War in violation of international sanctions, the
>Los Angeles Times reported in its Sunday editions.
>
>Quoting U.S. officials and U.N. diplomats, the newspaper said that
>Iraqi scientists and defense officials are using Western-made
>computers to transfer data from bulky papers to small disks that can
>be easily dispersed, making the information difficult for inspectors
>to track.

This is an interesting development because it also makes it hard for
the Iraqi government to track what is going on, too.  The government
of Iraq has been aware of the dangers of computers for many years.  At
one time they were tightly controlled.  Even typewriters were
controlled.  The government had writing samples of each one.

Now, apparently, this policy is loosening.  This suggests that U.S.
policy of the last 8 years has managed to achieve what Saddam Hussein
could not - it has made the Hussein regime a genuinely popular
government.

Still, it can't be universally popular.  How many cypherpunks live in
Iraq?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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HYRfv/Z5yzqpY5doAtdfy5RkvREwrINvCtLn+hgcBxQ0YTEDO8zUUg==
=jyt7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From jinn at inetnebr.com  Mon Nov 24 18:01:50 1997
From: jinn at inetnebr.com (D'jinnie)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:01:50 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711241930.NAA13443@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124195015.1962C-100000@falcon>



On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

: Napolean never took Moscow, he was stopped - just like Hitler - at the
: gates. The closest either French or German forces got was to look at the
: spires of the Kremlin. Beyond that similarity there are a wide range of
: differences between the situation. The fact remains that had Stalin *not*
: been able to withdraw troops from the Chinese border he would not have been
: able to keep Stalingrad or Moscow. Further, the *only* reason that Stalin
: could afford to do that was because Sorge indicated that the Japanese were
: interested in other goals at the time. Oh, regarding Napolean, the reason
: that he couldn't take Moscow was because troops, called Cossacks, were moved
: from the east to the west.

I don't feel qualified to argue on any of the points brought up in this
rather long thread, but the fact is, Napoleon DID conquer Moscow. He was
stopped AFTER Moscow was taken. On his way out, he burned as much of it as
he could. Indeed, the taking of Moscow was a rallying point for Russian
troops. Kutuzov, who refused to participate earlier in the war, changed
his mind and took control of the armies.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 18:16:25 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:16:25 +0800
Subject: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711250205.DAA15538@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nerthus wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and
>>the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is
>>the elimination of freedom and privacy.
>>
>>It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first
>>become enslaved.
>
>Those who wage war are rarely the slaves.  Those who die usually are.
>The "cannon fodder" you mentioned.

"Okay soldier, let's see that pass!"  Is this the treatment accorded
to a free man?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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YNJ6oqn9095/jBuJxXImd2Yc8a3fVeLlto8B2T/kVzcsfNVgOXdAGA==
=tY4g
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From ipitco at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 25 10:22:18 1997
From: ipitco at hotmail.com (ipitco at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:22:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 1 Million for $1.60
Message-ID: <98333241851110312.5421@ipit.co.th>


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Could you use 52 MILLION responsive email addresses?

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���������������                    








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 18:32:00 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:32:00 +0800
Subject: New Algorithm (reposted)
Message-ID: <199711250220.DAA18306@basement.replay.com>



Hello

 I send you links to my site where my crypto algorithm is published. I
hope you will find time to visit it and see what I have
discover. Algorithms I have design are Anigma and MEX128. Anigma is
encryption algo based on use Variable Function Technology, it
main characteristic is possibility to create unique encryption function
for every possible key. This make algorithm strong to all
known attacks, this is only my thesis I look for your help to find out
is it true. Please visit
<http://eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk/~kbajalc/algo/index.html>. Documentation
about Anigma and Mex128 now are available only in Macedonian.
I will appreciate very much if you give me your opinion about Anigma and
Mex128 or give me address of people who can do.

                                                                        
Koki

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------- 
 Kostadin Bajalcaliev           http://eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk/~kbajalc/
 26th of April Str. No: 14
 91480 Gevgelija                 kbajalc at eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk
 Macedonia                        kbajalc at informa.mk
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 18:35:21 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:35:21 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conferen
Message-ID: <199711250216.DAA17532@basement.replay.com>



Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf at mindspring.co> wrote reg. "illegal
immigrants":

 > > In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
 > > constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and
 > > bussed across the border.

 > > And what would be wrong with this?

 > Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
 > committing a crime. Once they have been deported they have
 > stopped committing the crime and then they can plead to appear
 > in court.

It used to be, that people are "felons under an increasing number
of laws". Now we've congressed to an "increasing number of felons
regardless of what they do" (their "crime" is being from "other
side" of the pencil-lines, that the statists have drawn on their
papers).

Even the "freedom-loving", no-boundaries etc. Cypherpunks fall over
those imaginery "border-lines", without having it ever dawn on
them, that *everything* done now to "illegal immigrants" will one
day soon be extended to the government-issued passport/digital
VeriSign-Tax-ID bearing "Americans" as well.
(Please refer to the "War on Drugs" for proof of patterns.)

In fact, it's being done already. The systems developed to "track
down illegal aliens" can track ANYBODY for that matter.

AnybodyHomeMonger






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 18:50:12 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:50:12 +0800
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <199711250244.DAA22331@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Concord is clearly proof that Britain didn't understand that they
>couldn't control America anymore and acted on that misinformation. It
>was *their* problem, as the revolution bore out.

Britain would probably have been capable of controlling America had
France not intervened.

France provided desperately needed powder and money to the
revolutionaries.  During the siege of Boston it was seriously proposed
that bow and arrows be employed due to powder shortages.  Spears were
actually prepared for use!

France also provided officers to staff the poorly trained and
organized American armies, troops, and even a navy.

The final victory at Yorktown was largely a French operation, for
example.  Here is Richard N. Rosenfeld's take on it from "American
Aurora":

Page 418: "There are approximately 32,000 French soldiers and sailors
at Yorktown, four to six times the number of George Washington's army,
and more than twice, if not three times, the number of all Americans
at Yorktown, including militia.  Indeed, there are many more French
soldiers on the ground than American Continentals.  The entire
blockading force at sea is French."

Page 419: "Of French and American forces which encircle Charles
Cornwallis at Yorktown, the naval part of this circle consists
strictly of French warships (more than thirty) and sailors (nineteen
thousand!).  America has no warships in this naval blockade."

Page 419: "Orchestrating the siege at Yorktown is strictly a matter
for the French.  Washington has no experience in siege warfare.  The
French perfected the art.  Rochambeau has taken part in fourteen
sieges!  General Lebigne, the Chevalier Du Portail, and other French
officers and engineers take charge of siege operations."

Page 420: "Two French soldiers die for each American death at
Yorktown.  Two French soldiers are wounded for each American wound at
Yorktown.  French casualties exceed 250."

Page 421: "British General Charles O'Hara, acting on behalf of General
Charles Cornwallis (who has pleaded illness), attempts to surrender
Cornwallis' (sic) sword to French Commander in Chief General the Comte
de Rochambeau, but Rochambeau magnanimously refuses to accept the
surrender weapon and directs the British general to George
Washington."

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 24 19:00:39 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:00:39 +0800
Subject: Iraq and computers
In-Reply-To: <199711250133.CAA09163@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102812b09fd96149e8@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:33 PM -0700 11/24/97, Anonymous wrote:

(stuff elided about more computers being deployed in Iraq)

>This is an interesting development because it also makes it hard for
>the Iraqi government to track what is going on, too.  The government
>of Iraq has been aware of the dangers of computers for many years.  At
>one time they were tightly controlled.  Even typewriters were
>controlled.  The government had writing samples of each one.
>
>Now, apparently, this policy is loosening.  This suggests that U.S.
>policy of the last 8 years has managed to achieve what Saddam Hussein
>could not - it has made the Hussein regime a genuinely popular
>government.

Embargos (or is it embargoes?) tend to alienate the people who are,
obviously, most affected. Embargos seldom affect the ruling class.

In the case of Iraq, more than a hundred thousand infants and children and
others are estimated to have died as a direct result of the embargo. (I
don't know if this is precisely accurate, but anytime the U.S. exerts its
superpower status to embargo free trade with some nation, obviously there
is some effect.)

As for Iraq and Hussein, he's JAD...Just Another Dictator. Not that much
worse than several dozen others, including most rulers in the Middle East,
that the U.S. deals with on a daily basis.

For some reason (hint: oil companies), the American President decided to
take a stand against his invasion of a neighboring country. No such stands
have been taken in recent years in many other such invasions.

(Bush may not have properly consulted the oil companies, either, as there
is ample evidence that Hussein would _not_ have cut off oil shipments had
he succeeded. In fact, he probably would have _increased_ oil exports.
Hmmmhhhh.)

>Still, it can't be universally popular.  How many cypherpunks live in
>Iraq?

I certainly wouldn't choose to live there. Of the 200 or so nations, there
are very few I would choose to live in, and few that would be conducive to
"Cypherpunks activities."

(It is not an accident that the nexus of the Net and Web is, loosely
speaking, "Western Civilization" in general, and America in particular.
Many reasons for this. Not just overall wealth, which allows for very good
connectivity and zillions of PCs in homes and businesses, but also the
First Amendment and facsimiles in European nations. Etc. Etc.)

But the whole Iraq situation bugged me, as that is one of the few places I
really planned to visit someday as a tourist...Sumeria, Babylon, the
Hanging Gardens, all those great Mesopotamian places. Egypt has no
attraction to me, but seeing the Gate of Ishtar, what's left of
Babylon....wow.

Maybe if I'm arrested for anti-government activities here in the U.S. I'll
be able to travel safely in Iraq when I get out of prison.

(Though by then the CIA may have successfully assassinated Hussein and
installed its own repressive government. )

I'm not a champion of Hussein or Iraq, but he's just another dictator (JAD).

By the way, I totally and completely and fully reject the U.S. position on
Cuba. It seems a slam dunk issue of repressing the liberties of Americans
to say they cannot travel to Cuba, cannot trade with Cubans, cannot give
money to Cubans, just because the government in D.C. decided 37 years ago
to isolate Castro.

Castro is JAD, and our isolation of Cuba has helped keep him in power.

>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 19:03:07 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:03:07 +0800
Subject: Violence and Depravity
Message-ID: <199711250251.DAA23507@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A Noncom To Be Named Later wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time, >money, and energy.
>
>I disagree.

I've removed the discussion regarding McVeigh's involvement.  It is
entirely possible he is an Oswald.  I simply do not know.  However, my
discussion was really intended to consider the morality of war and to
point out that McVeigh's alleged actions and alleged values are not
far removed from those exercised by governmentally sponsored warriors.

If you like, change all the names and call it a thought problem.

>Consider that if this action was meant to revenge or commemorate the
>Waco massacre, it achieved the opposite goal.  However, if this was
>the work of agents-provocateur, it worked beautifully.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that the Oklahoma City bombing
was the act of provocateurs hoping to increase the power and authority
of the U.S. Federal government.  It is the case that the use of
violence has been applied to this goal successfully many times in the
past.

This certainly does call into question my claim that "Violence is, in
nearly every case, a poor investment of time, money, and energy."

Your observation and my claim are actually not inconsistent if you
consider that I do not consider increasing the power and authority of
most governments as a good thing.

Let's expand the discussion to war.  If one considers it desirable to:

1. increase taxes,
2. to waste vast resources,
3. to kill large numbers of civilians indiscriminately or methodically,
4. to kill large numbers of conscripts,
5. to destroy the land,
6. to create millions of people who will live the rest of their lives
   in post combat nightmares,
7. to lay the seeds for future wars,
8. to create thousands, or even millions, of orphans,
9. to cause food shortages and disease,
10. and to traumatize human society,

then violence in the form of war is a good investment.  Not too many
people see this as desirable.

I still maintain that in nearly every case, if one is intent on
pursuing a worthwhile goal, it will not be attained through the use of
violence.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov 24 19:07:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:07:55 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711250120.CAA06322@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102813b09fe207522c@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:20 PM -0700 11/24/97, Anonymous wrote:

>Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>>Once again, if 1812 the [British] invasion [of the United States]
>>actually occured,...
>
>They burned the White House to the ground.  Does that count?  ;-)

Wait...they burned the White House to the ground?

Maybe we need to rethink this...maybe the British were ur-Cypherpunks.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Nov 24 19:09:54 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:09:54 +0800
Subject: RESULT: comp.org.cauce passes 548:122
In-Reply-To: <ptrg1ommutz.fsf@uta.fi>
Message-ID: <19971125030002.6098.qmail@nym.alias.net>



Jari Aalto -- AT poboxes.com <ssjaaa at uce-die.uta.fi> wrote:

> | Anon.penet.fi was *NOT* an anonymous remailer, though.  It was a "pseudonym
> | server".  The fact that it maintained a database by which posts could be
> | "traced back to a real address" is the main reason why it's no longer in
> | operation.
>    
> You give wrong inmpression about PENET; which was after all, the first
> anonymnous service. There are levels of anonymity. For penet strory,
> refer to this:
> 
> http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/scientology/anon/penet.html

I'm not knocking the anon.penet.fi experiment.  We've all learned a lot from
it.  Let's not forget those lessons.

The same attack has been tried on two different remailers.  In 1996, the
anon.penet.fi remailer was the subject of an attack by the Co$.  As part of
that attack, the remailer's database which linked the "anonymous" accounts
to their actual holders. The operator valiantly defended the integrity of
that database, and it was not compromised.  But the potential was certainly
there.

This year, Jeff Burchell's "Huge Cajones Remailer" came under attack.
Alleging "abuse" involving that remailer, Gary Burnore and Belinda Bryan of 
DataBasix demanded that Jeff turn over ALL his logs to them.  Fortunately, 
Jeff wisely kept no such logs.  Even though the remailer was eventually 
harassed out of existence, the privacy of its users was preserved because the 
information the attackers demanded simply wasn't there to demand.  That's a 
wise idea for the same reason that retail merchants remove the cash from 
their cash registers when they're closed, leaving the cash drawers unlocked.  
There's less temptation to stage an attack if you know in advance that you 
won't get what you're seeking (the identity of someone you'd like to 
silence, for example) by staging such an attack.  Any operator that keeps 
identifying information is inviting litigation, or worse.  If you're an ISP 
and are making money, then perhaps that risk is justified.  But you can't 
expect a volunteer operator of a free remailer to take such a risk for 
nothing.

You're right.  For those who only need a superficial level of "anonymity"
and don't really care if their identity is eventually revealed publicly,
some of the alternatives such as Hotmail would perhaps suffice.  But that's
a decision best left to the user, and not to be mandated by others with a
lesser stake in the consequences.

--






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 24 19:11:46 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:11:46 +0800
Subject: 1812_Napoleon_in_Moscow.htm
Message-ID: <199711250316.VAA15746@einstein.ssz.com>



   Napoleonic Literature
   Greenhill  [INLINE] Books
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   [INLINE] 1812: NAPOLEON IN MOSCOW
   by Paul Britten Austin
   
   9 x 6 in. (240 x 159 mm).  272 pages.  22 halftones, 2 maps.
   ISBN 1-85367-195-9.
   U.K. Price &pound;19.50.  U.S. Price $40.00.
   
   Napoleon's Grande Arm�e waits at the gates of Moscow, preparing to
   enter in triumphal procession. But it finds a city abandoned by its
   inhabitants - save only the men who emerge to fan the flames as
   incendiary fuzes hidden throughout the empty buildings of Moscow set
   the city alight. For three days Moscow burns, while looters dodge the
   fires to plunder and pillage. And so begins 1812: Napoleon in Moscow,
   Paul Britten Austin's atmospheric 'word-film' presented through the
   testimony of more than 100 of the people who witnessed the took part
   in the campaign. A large proportion of these close-up accounts have
   never been seen in English before.
   
   After the fires die down the army settles in the ruins of Moscow. For
   five weeks Napoleon waits at the Kremlin, expecting 'his brother the
   Tsar' in St. Petersburg to capitulate and make peace, while in fact
   the Russian army is gathering its strength. At the same time Murat's
   cavalry, the advance guard, is encamped in dreadful conditions three
   days' march away at Winkowo, where it is being starved to death. When
   Napoleon eventually realizes the futility of his plans and prepares to
   leave Moscow, the advance guard is surprised by a Russian attack and
   tumbles head over heels out of its position. The most astounding
   exodus in modern times ensues. Trailing thousands of wagons and
   carriages laden with all the stupendous loot of Moscow, the Grande
   Arm�e moves slowly south in an attempt to outflank the Russian General
   Kutusov. At Malo-Jaroslavetz, 100 kilometers from Moscow, it runs
   headlong into ten of Kutuzov's divisions, and its 'conquest of the
   world' comes to an end with the shock of Napoleon himself narrowly
   escaping capture by Cossacks.
   
   1812: Napoleon in Moscow follows on from the brilliant 1812: The March
   on Moscow, which brought Napoleon's army across Europe to the great
   city. Paul Britten Austin recreates this next phase of the epic
   campaign with characteristic verve, and an astonishing sense of
   immediacy from the words of the participants themselves.
   
   Paul Britten Austin went to sea as a cabin boy in the British merchant
   marine, graduating to Radio Officer and serving in tankers and liberty
   ships. In 1947 he recovered his childhood home in Paris, but moved to
   Sweden, where he married the Swedish novelist Margareta Bergman,
   sister of the film director. For nearly a decade he was in charge of
   English-language broadcasts from Radio Sweden; thereafter, from 1957
   to 1969, of the Swedish government tourist office in London.
   
   He has written a score of books on various subjects, both in English
   and in Swedish, including a classic biography of the eighteenth
   century Swedish poet Carl Michael Bellman. He has also translated many
   other Swedish classics and he has been awarded a Swedish knighthood of
   the Order of the North Star and an honorary D.Litt. In 1989 he
   contributed the article on Marshal Oudinot to David Chandler's
   anthology Napoleon's Marshals.
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   (If you surfed directly to this page, please go to the Napoleonic
   Literature Home Page to see the wealth of information that's available
   on this website.)






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov 24 19:12:18 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:12:18 +0800
Subject: BIOS Help
In-Reply-To: <199711241422.IAA16823@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971124184804.006ba4ec@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 08:22 AM 11/24/97 -0600, Brandon Crosby wrote:
>Hey,
>
>Does anyone know where specs for Award BIOS chips are? I accidentily
>locked mine and lost the password.

If the CMOS chip is socketed (as opposed to soldered in), remove it, wrap
it in aluminum foil, and let it sit for about an hour.  This will clear all
CMOS data including the password, hard drive parameters, date/time, and
other settings maintained there.  If removing the chip is impractical,
unplug the power supply from the motherboard, and remove the battery that
powers the chip.  (Even if it is soldered in, desoldering a 2-pin device is
orders of magnitude easier than desoldering a 40-60 pin DIP)  Once you have
done this, wait for an hour.  When time is up, put everything the way it
was, start the machine, enter the setup program (F1/F10/DEL) and redo all
the settings.  Hopefully, you have them archived with Norton Utilities or
something similar sou you needn't try to remember if you had enabled the
BIOS shadowing at 0xC8000 and other such trivia.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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lUTIeOmx8AtESQjuJZGzGxPs
=784N
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Nov 24 19:13:49 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:13:49 +0800
Subject: "Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally." (was: Furor over Spam)
In-Reply-To: <657kr7$rv@clarknet.clark.net>
Message-ID: <19971125030000.27436.qmail@nym.alias.net>



tweek at netcom.com (R R M Tweek) wrote:
 
> I think it's fucking funny if you ask me.  The unworthy "databasix goons"
                                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> were concerned just about this sort of thing occuring.  

Isn't it amazing how they can "predict" thing like that?

> I hope that  
> LOA was running some sort of caller ID, or supeonas the phone records
> of those calls who step across the line and made threats in their 4am
> phone calls.  Can't wait to see how this story sways the congresscritters
> when Sanford tries to spin this incident his was in the anti-spam legislation
> hearings.  

Maybe you ought to give (or sell cheaply) your fellow "databasix goon" Gary
Burnore the clue that if he's going to call an alleged "spammer" on the phone 
at 2 AM and ream him about a Usenet post, that he shouldn't brag about it 
publicly.

And yet he did exactly that.  Would it be any wonder if people were to
start suspecting that he might have done the same thing again?

Now go subpoena those phone records.  You might want to concentrate on calls
made from the Raleigh-Durham, NC area.  If you're alluding to the fact that 
Ron Guilmette may have been responsible, since the disinformation team at
DataBasix has accused him practically everything else, you have about as
much chance of proving that as O.J. Simpson does of "finding the real 
killers".

> Good job NANAE.  You really fucked up royally.

One could conceivably substitute "DataBasix" for "NANAE" in that flame.

--






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Nov 24 19:13:55 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:13:55 +0800
Subject: Open Letter from ClickZ Publisher
In-Reply-To: <347b570e.6405845@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19971125030003.14451.qmail@nym.alias.net>



gburnore+spam at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
 
> : gburnore+spam at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
> : >      
> : >Oh no, couldn't have been anyone from this group, right?  BULLSHIT.
> :                 
> : Unless it was you, criminal.
>  
> So a being arrested (a ticket actually) is being a criminal to you, eh?

Good ol' Gary "Shoot from the Lip" Burnore ... gotta love 'im, right?  I
gotta hand it to you, Burnore, you have a knack for snatching defeat from
the jaws of victory.  The "criminal" comment was obviously intended as a
joke, and the poster even apologized for it, but you just couldn't leave
it alone, could you?  You had to go bragging about your "martyrdom" in
San Francisco, didn't you? For further info on Gary's arrest, visit: 

   http://www.e-media.com/cm/sac.html

First off, it eventually became "a ticket actually" because it was plea
bargained down to that.  That's one of the advantages of committing a
"politically correct" offense in a city like Frisco.  The San Francisco 
Police Department presumably doesn't take people into custody and impound 
their vehicles for mere traffic tickets.

But it does prove that you're willing to break the law to prove a point.
Remember how you bragged about calling a spammer at home at 2 AM to
harass him?  When you say: 

  "Oh no, couldn't have been anyone from this group, right?  BULLSHIT." 
  
you're absolutely correct.  It could have been you! I have no doubt that 
someone who'd dig up an ancient tax lien and post it to Usenet in an 
attempt to embarass and silence a critic could well have done what's 
mentioned here.

--






From fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU  Mon Nov 24 19:16:32 1997
From: fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU (Fabrice Planchon)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:16:32 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711250120.CAA06322@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971124220636.26202@math.princeton.edu>



On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 02:20:34AM +0100, Anonymous wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Fabrice Planchon wrote:
> >Once again, if 1812 the [British] invasion [of the United States] actually occured,...
> 
> They burned the White House to the ground.  Does that count?  ;-)

Oups... of course I made a typo, and everybody read "in 1812
yadayadayada".
And yes it counts and I like it (just because the initial reason for
this mess was the tentative to take over Canada, and it just illustrates
that the US were already as any other country, trying to take over their
neighbours ;-) Of course nowadays you don't see that they miserabily
failed on that occasion)

                             F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735








From jongalt at pinn.net  Mon Nov 24 19:38:06 1997
From: jongalt at pinn.net (Jon Galt)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:38:06 +0800
Subject: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971124001823.10b73e70@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971124220936.27317E-100000@everest.pinn.net>



On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
> 
>         Perhaps but there is something particularly obnoxious to the rule
> of law when scum like McVay being able to say to the effect, 'I know I am
> stealing from you. Sue me.' 
> 
>         It is most clearly a mockery of the law to find his pack of
> drooling toadies such as McC using the theft as a juvenile taunt, that some
> may set themselves above the law solely upon the grounds of the cost of
> civil action. 
> 
>         That is something simply not done in civilized society. 

I'll mention something else that is simply not done in civilized 
society:  forcefully preventing someone from peacefully using information 
that they have, simply because someone else supposedly "owns" that 
information.

I'm not making any comment about the people that were referred to above.  
I'm making a comment about copyright laws.

You cannot *own* an idea.

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt at pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________






From rm at dev.null  Mon Nov 24 19:47:35 1997
From: rm at dev.null (Redneck Motherfucker)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:47:35 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conferen
In-Reply-To: <199711250216.DAA17532@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <347A443A.7AF9@dev.null>



Anonymous wrote: 
> Michael Friedman <mikhaelf at mindspring.co> wrote reg. "illegal
> immigrants":
>  > While in this country they are in the act of
>  > committing a crime. Once they have been deported they have
>  > stopped committing the crime and then they can plead to appear
>  > in court.

> (their "crime" is being from "other
> side" of the pencil-lines, that the statists have drawn on their
> papers).

Have you noticed they stopped bringing their goddamn goats with
them since the Marines took firm action?
  
> Even the "freedom-loving", no-boundaries etc. Cypherpunks fall over
> those imaginery "border-lines", without having it ever dawn on
> them, that *everything* done now to "illegal immigrants" will one
> day soon be extended to the government-issued passport/digital
> VeriSign-Tax-ID bearing "Americans" as well.

Sure, pal. Since you're posting anonymously, I assume you have to
hide your identity because you don't have an Information Highway
driver's license.
Hit the road, pal. We're wise to your type.

> In fact, it's being done already. The systems developed to "track
> down illegal aliens" can track ANYBODY for that matter.

Not me, buddy. I am a Masturbater of Deception, and I use my long
tongue to keep from leaving my pecker-tracks behind for others to
follow. 

> AnybodyHomeMonger

AhhhhUuhhYAAHHMonger (See...now you can't tell who I am, can you?)






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 24 19:47:48 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:47:48 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711250350.VAA16081@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:00:04 -0500
> From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)

> On Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 01:30:37PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

> To quote one of your examples,
> the production of the Me 262 was seriously delayed due to his obsession
> to make a bomber of it. Not that it would have changed the game, just
> made it more difficult for the allies.

True, but my reference had to do with what would have happened if the US had
NOT gotten into the conflict. Then such shortages as the 4-engine bomber
would not have been as critical to Germanys servival as early in the war.
The bottem line, had the US not entered the war Germany and Japan had enough
resources to reach their goal. Further, it is unreasonable given the nature
of Hitler, Mussolini, & Tojo to believe they would have left the US alone,
let alone stable long-term trade.

> > Such as? The situation in China at the time was that a variety of warlords
> > were spending more time fighting each other than the Japanese. China
> 
> Nothing better than a common enemy to help reconciliation...

It's unfortunate the Chinese didn't see it that way.

> Well, you want to stick to this issue of fighting battles between
> armies.

Actualy I am discussing the strategic and operational level, not tactical.
It isn't the result of a single battle but rather the management of a string
of battles that is important to winning. That takes understanding motives,
transportation, raw supplies, processing facilities, etc. The thesis was
that had the US not entered the war the result would have been a relatively
benign quad of the US, Germany, Italy, & Japan, supposedly moderated by
distance and economic dependancy. I challene that.

Consider the strategic interacion of 3 parties, easily extensible to more.
It is in each of the parties best long-term interest (assuming unrestricted
access to resources, theological supperiority, etc.) to pair with one of the
other parties and attack the 3rd, evenly splitting the spoils. The stablist
strategic form is binary or possibly unitary. I would further feel
historicaly supported to propose that given sufficient time, resources, and
planning this situation will develop *and* devlolve to either a binary or a
unitary form. A recent example was the Soviet Union. The interesting question
is whether the current apparent unitary position of the US will devlove into
a multi-party situation or whether it can actualy win over by some means the
other parties to willing cooperation.

> So I am ready to accept that they win all this battles. So what
> next ? next they have to deal with too many territories to take care
> of. Unless they can have local faction to deal with that for
> them. Doesn't work very well usually. That's simple constation from past
> history. That's all. They won't be able to put a japanese soldier in
> every household from the great wall to Rhode Island.

And once they had control of the basic infrastructure they wouldn't have to.
I challenge the thesis that the Japanese would have had to put a soldier in
every house. Consider the situation in Vichy France and it's relationship
with German occupiers. The Chinese could certainly have no higher level of
objectionable feelings. Yet the Vichy French as a rule were quite
cooperative in supporting German goals. Even to the point of firing on their
French brothers in North Africa.

> This Abyssinia adventure was one of the reasons Mussolini got in trouble
> with, let's say, the ONU of this time, the "Soci�t� des Nations", as you
> pointed out. Doesn't change anything to what I said, and can be checked,
> about the fact that Mussolini wasn't a great friend of Hitler at
> first. It came more as a necessity than anything else.

Why? The Tripartite Pact wasn't signed until Sept. 27, 1940. A considerable
time before this Churchill had been sending letters to Mussolini requesting
him to stand against Germany. That act on Mussolini's part would definitely
thrown a wrench in the Germans plan on the strategic and political level. He
chose to go with the Germans because he at some level felt they would win.

> > If the US had waited until Hitler began dropping bombs on New York and
> > firing V2's from submarines 20 miles off the coast while at the same time
> > Japan was doing the same sorts of things, with a nice base at Pearl Harbor,
> > *and* you claim the US could have stood the test then I can only say you
> > are confused at best.
> 
> I think they could have done it. Let's say 50/50 ;-)

Seriously? What would the US have used? The P-51 Mustang would most
certainly not have gotten the surge it did because Britian would have been
giving their hot-rod Merlins to the Germans to put in their 109's. The
impact of that simple act alone would have seriously crippled the US and
given a considerable lead to the Germans in engine technology. Consider also
that without the military load the ME-262, Komet, Blitz Bomber, V2, etc.
would have gotten farther quicker. The US got its first jet engine from
Whipple who was a Brit.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 24 19:50:05 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:50:05 +0800
Subject: Iraq and computers
In-Reply-To: <199711250133.CAA09163@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <347A40F1.1D5E@dev.null>



Monkey Catskin wrote:

> Michael Wilson wrote that Reuters wrote:
> >Quoting U.S. officials and U.N. diplomats, the newspaper said that
> >Iraqi scientists and defense officials are using Western-made
> >computers to transfer data from bulky papers to small disks that can
> >be easily dispersed, making the information difficult for inspectors
> >to track.
> 
> This is an interesting development because it also makes it hard for
> the Iraqi government to track what is going on, too.  The government
> of Iraq has been aware of the dangers of computers for many years.  At
> one time they were tightly controlled.  Even typewriters were
> controlled.  The government had writing samples of each one.
> 
> Now, apparently, this policy is loosening.  This suggests that U.S.
> policy of the last 8 years has managed to achieve what Saddam Hussein
> could not - it has made the Hussein regime a genuinely popular
> government.

  I told the Pentagon that they could avoid the Iraqui citizens
misunderstanding our intentions by stenciling "We're from the US
government, and we're here to help you!" on the sides of the
missles and bombs. But nnooooo...that would make too much sense,
wouldn't it?
 
> Still, it can't be universally popular.  How many cypherpunks live in
> Iraq?

  At least one...

SaddaMonger







From jongalt at pinn.net  Mon Nov 24 19:55:19 1997
From: jongalt at pinn.net (Jon Galt)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:55:19 +0800
Subject: Microsoft/Phillipines
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971124223818.2537B-100000@everest.pinn.net>



This is from Infobeat News - Morning Edition, 11/24/97

> *** Microsoft grants software amnesty to Philippines
>
> Philippines President Fidel Ramos met with Microsoft Corp. Chairman
> Bill Gates Friday and collected a certificate legalizing much of his
> government's pirated computer software. After a ceremony to observe
> the signing of agreements tightening relations between the software
> giant and the Philippines, Gates gave Ramos a license for free
> software that was the equivalent of a partial declaration of amnesty.
> The license allows the Philippine government to use older Microsoft
> products, such as the DOS operating system, that previously were
> being used illegally by many government agencies. See
> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6086523-f4f

I think it is really cool that a private company can actually negotiate 
somewhat as an equal with a government.  One implication of this is that 
Microsoft is becoming a more powerful corporation - which is not 
necessarily a good thing.

But the other thing it might imply is that the power of government is 
slipping - which is definitely a good thing.

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt at pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov 24 20:06:33 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:06:33 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conferen
Message-ID: <199711250400.FAA03801@basement.replay.com>



> 
> Even the "freedom-loving", no-boundaries etc. Cypherpunks fall over
> those imaginery "border-lines", without having it ever dawn on
> them, that *everything* done now to "illegal immigrants" will one
> day soon be extended to the government-issued passport/digital
> VeriSign-Tax-ID bearing "Americans" as well.
> (Please refer to the "War on Drugs" for proof of patterns.)

Please give us some references to your abusive and highly infalmmatory
allegations that the Gov't has followed a pattern of transgression on
the rights of any judaeo-christian-god-fearing-tax-paying-40bit-key-using-honest-law-abiding-citizen.(TM)

I for one just can't bring myself to believe it.


> In fact, it's being done already. The systems developed to "track
> down illegal aliens" can track ANYBODY for that matter.

Proof Please.  Or at least a more concrete reference to these nebulous
systems would be nice.






From usacm_dc at acm.org  Tue Nov 25 12:07:40 1997
From: usacm_dc at acm.org (USACM Washington Office)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:07:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: USACM Calls on Pres Clinton to Veto HR 2265
Message-ID: <v03110700b0a0dc7f4ab8@[204.91.138.218]>


PRESS RELEASE

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 1997

COMPUTER SCIENTISTS URGE PRESIDENT CLINTON TO VETO LEGISLATION
RESTRICTING FLOW OF SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION

Computer scientists fear that legislation rushed through in the closing
days of Congress may inadvertently criminalize many scientific publications
that are freely available on the Internet today. They are calling on the
President to veto the measure.

The Association for Computing's U.S. Public Policy Committee (USACM) said
that the legislation could lead to criminal prosecutions against
scientists, educators and others who do nothing more than share their own
articles on the Internet with students and colleagues.  According to USACM
Chair Dr. Barbara Simons, "This legislation was hurried through Congress,
was poorly drafted, and is likely to have many unintended consequences."

The "No Electronic Theft Act" would criminalize the copying of materials
which are currently protected under the well established U.S. doctrine of
Fair-Use. According to the Act, any person who infringes a copyright
willfully, by the electronic reproduction or distribution of one or more
copies which have a total retail value of more than $1000 dollars, will be
subject to a criminal prosecution.

The scientists say that an essential element of research is that papers
be reviewed by others.  Scientists submit papers describing their research
to scientific journals which facilitate the peer-review process.  The
journals then print the reviewed papers and thus own their copyrights.
Since the Internet's development, researchers have used it to make their
research widely available to others in their field.  According to the
letter, "Under the No Electronic Theft Act, an author who posts their
research on the Internet, and whose documents are frequently read on-line,
could be subject to criminal prosecution."

USACM argues that the No Electronic Theft Act will have a chilling effect
upon the free speech of scientists and professionals in universities and
research labs.  Universities may forbid scientists from publishing their
research on- line, or reading and reviewing other scientist's research
on-line, to avoid the potential of massive copyright litigation.

According to Dr. Simons "This legislation is clearly contrary
to the White House's stated goal of avoiding Internet regulation. We
believe it is inconsistent with the Administration's policy to promote
dramatically expansive laws for the Internet where other less burdensome
means may be available to address copyright concerns."

The Association for Computing (ACM) is the largest and oldest professional
association of computer scientists in the United States.  ACM's U.S. Public
Policy Committee (USACM) facilitates communications between computer
scientists and policy makers on issues of concern to the computing community.

For more information, Please contact:


Barbara Simons, Chair, USACM: 408/256-3661, simons at VNET.IBM.COM
David Farber, USACM:  215/898-9508, farber at cis.upenn.edu
Lauren Gelman, Associate Director, USACM, 202/544-4859, gelman at acm.org

http://www.acm.org/usacm/copyright/

_____________________
November 25, 1997

President William J. Clinton
1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear President Clinton:

	The Association for Computing's U.S. Public Policy Committee
believes that the  "No Electronic Theft Act" (H.R. 2265), which is now
before you, does not adequately reflect the nature of the new digital
environment and will have a  negative impact on the rich scientific
communications that have developed on the Internet in many fields,
including computer science.  For this reason, we are asking you to veto the
legislation. We agree that copyright holders have a legitimate need to
protect their intellectual property.  However,  we are concerned that the
bill was rushed through both Houses of Congress without careful
consideration of its unintended consequences.

	We are concerned the Bill may:

*	Restrict scientists and other professionals from making their
research available on the Internet for use by colleagues and students.
Most scientists do not own the copyright on their own materials.  Instead,
that copyright ownership is retained by the scientific journal which
peer-reviews and publishes the research.  Under the No Electronic Theft
Act, an author who posts their research on the Internet, and whose
documents are frequently read on-line, could be subject to criminal
prosecution.  If the bill becomes law, scientists may have to choose
between having their work peer-reviewed or making it widely available.

*	Criminalize the transfer of information that is currently protected
under the U.S. 'fair use' doctrine.  Copyright law is derived from the U.S.
Constitution and is intended to advance "science and the useful arts."  The
fair-use doctrine protects reading and nonprofit copying and thus allows
scientists and educators to openly exchange information.  H.R. 2265 does
not explicitly protect the "fair use" privilege which makes this open
exchange of scientific information possible.

*	Chill free speech in universities and research labs. The
terminology used in the Bill, including "willfully" and "for profit," are
not defined; it is unclear what the parameters of a criminally prosecutable
copyright infringement are.  As a result, it is likely that many
institutions will mandate that all copyrighted documents be removed from
the net to avoid having to defend copyright infringement prosecutions.

	We hope that you will veto this measure and ask your staff to work
with Congress during the next session to develop more sensible legislation.


Sincerely,

Dr. Barbara Simons Chair,
U.S. Public Policy Committee
Association For Computing


The Association for Computing (ACM) is the largest and oldest professional
association of computer scientists in the United States.  ACM's U.S. Public
Policy Committee (USACM) facilitates communication between computer
scientists and policy makers on issues of concern to the computing
community.

cc:	Vice President Albert Gore, Jr.
	Ira Magaziner, Senior Adviser to President
	Brian Kahin, Office of Science Technology and Public Policy.
	Henry J. Hyde, Chair, House Judiciary Committee
	John Conyers, Jr., Ranking Member, House Judiciary Committee
	Howard Coble, Chair, Courts and Intellectual Property Subcommittee,
House Judiciary 	Committee
	Orrin G. Hatch, Chair, Senate Judiciary Committee
	Patrick J. Leahy, Ranking Member, Senate Judiciary Committee
	John Ashcroft, Chair, Constitution, Federalism and Property Rights
Subcommittee, Senate 	Judiciary Committee
	Mike DeWine, Chair, Antitrust, Business Rights and Competition
Subcommittee, Senate 	Judiciary Comittee
	Representative Virgil H. Goode
	Representative Barney Frank, House Judiciary Committee
	Representative Christopher Cannon, House Judiciary Committee
	Representative William Delahunt, House Judiciary Committee
	Representative Elton Gallegly, House Judiciary Committee
	Representative Bob Clement








From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 24 20:20:35 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:20:35 +0800
Subject: Global Strategic Structure - Speculative
Message-ID: <199711250420.WAA16286@einstein.ssz.com>



Thesis:

Given,

  - n-party political systems evolve/devolve into binary or unitary
    party systems.

  - a binary system is stable provided each individual party is stable.

  - no truly global unitary system has ever existed.

  - historicaly we see multi-party systems devolve into 2-3 primary
    parties.

  - it may be possible that the US is the first country in history to
    reach the unitary model.

  - that unitary position, if it exists, is not total, there being at
    least 1 3rd world level participant. in fact there being 200+ such
    parties.

Then,

  - does the unitary position evolve/devolve back to a n-party system
    where the unitary party is either eliminated or reduced in stature.

  - is it reasonable that a single governmental system can possibly
    manage a global resource pool.

  - will we then see an averaging of political systems across the total
    set of parties.

  - is it possible, considering the range of human desires & beliefs, that
    a multiplicity at todays level of parties is a stable state, because of
    the averaging effect. In effect creating a global government rule-set
    for inter-national and intra-national behaviour. the root cause being
    that this averaging reduces the pay-off for violence and maximizes the
    pay-off for cooperating.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Nov 24 20:32:45 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:32:45 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <19971125042001.3010.qmail@nym.alias.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Of course, all the pseudoconstitutionalist claptrap about the 16th being
>unconstitutional is, of course, that. The constitution's what the Supreme
>Court says it is, unfortunately.

I don't agree with you on this one, Bob.

The fact is that the 16th was never properly ratified.  It slid through the 
cracks, contrary to the procedure for ratifying amendments as outlined in 
the Constitution.  The reason there was no public outcry was because the 
initial tax was 1% on anyone earning more than $4,000 a year (roughly 
$80,000 in today's money).  Besides, I seriously doubt many people rushed
down to the Treasury to cough up their 1% either.

This deceptive non-ratification is clearly documented by Bill Benson in his 
book "The Law That Never Was" <http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html>.  
Although his book has been in print for several years, I have yet to hear of 
anyone who has refuted his claims.

The "pseudoconstitutionalist claptrap" that should be pointed out is 
your claim that "the constitution's what the Supreme Court says it is."  
Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution gives the Supreme Court judicial 
power "...to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this 
Constitution..."

The words "under this Constitution" imply that the Supreme Court must work 
by the letter of the law as outlined in the Constitution.  How can the 
Supreme Court pass a decision involving the 16th when the amendment was 
never ratified as outlined in Section V?  These are the kind of shenanigans
one would expect from a banana republic tribunal, not the Supreme Court.

>Doesn't mean the damn thing shouldn't be repealed, though there's fat
>chance of that. 

Why bother to repeal what never existed?  When enough people learn what 
really happened, and when they couple it with the fact that most of their 
tax money is wasted and could be better "redistributed" according to their
own individual judgement, the house of cards will collapse.

>                 Oh well. Fortunately, we can fight back with digital bearer
>settlement. Someday. Soon, I hope.

I hope so, too.  But I don't advocate waiting until that day to fight back.
We can start now by learning the facts and then passing on that knowledge.
Consider it to be the creation of a ready and willing market for digital
bearer certificates.

Nerthus

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From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov 24 21:04:57 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:04:57 +0800
Subject: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971124220936.27317E-100000@everest.pinn.net>
Message-ID: <347A598B.6266@dev.null>



Jon Galt wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
> >         Perhaps but there is something particularly obnoxious to the rule
> > of law when scum like McVay being able to say to the effect, 'I know I am
> > stealing from you. Sue me.'

> I'll mention something else that is simply not done in civilized
> society:  forcefully preventing someone from peacefully using information
> that they have, simply because someone else supposedly "owns" that
> information.
> 
> I'm not making any comment about the people that were referred to above.
> I'm making a comment about copyright laws.
> 
> You cannot *own* an idea.

Copyright is one of those ideas which seems to have more benefits than
downsides until it actually comes into common use in a wide variety
of areas. As always, the thieves and scum at the top of the food chain
manage to mark the legislative trail so that all roads lead to their
own hungry mouths.

Thanks to copyright, instead of listening to the spritit of the muse,
we end up listening to the canned muzak in the supermarket, and the
shrink-wrapped former musicians on the radio.
Copyright invariably ends up being 'Corporationright.'

The standard argument for Copyright is that it encourages creative
people to produce and share ideas, etc.
Bullshit. It encourages Record Companies to pay songwriters a 
hundred bucks a week to live in a shack at the back of the parking
lot and crank out ten or twenty bullshit tunes a day. It also
encourages the companies to promote dogs that they have heavy
(cocaine up the nose) investments in, and add a lot of flash to 
the packaging so nobody notices their 'artists' are just barking.

The same applies to drug and pharmaceutical copyrights.
All of a sudden, Madam Curie's grandaughter can't experiment 
with titanium, because it sounds like uranium, and the corporate
lawyers are worried. Marcus Polo can't work on a cure for
Polio, because the bean counters have determined that there
is more money in treating Polo injuries, and they get a kickback
from the gypsum companies that provide cast materials.

Copyright, in the end, leads to labor and products being priced,
not according to their usefulness, but according to what level
of restriction there is as to who is 'allowed' to produce or
use the ideas inherent in the labor or product.

Copyright is an excellent example of a legislative construct
which is not dripping with inherent evilness, having no redeeming
value, but is actually a rather innocuous little wart which 
has been legislated into becoming a giant cancer by those who
have positioned themselves to make money off its treatment.

Be wary of legislators who propose legislation which contains
fine print saying, "Except for me and my pals..."

TruthMonger






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 24 21:23:00 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:23:00 +0800
Subject: revq.html
Message-ID: <199711250507.XAA16468@einstein.ssz.com>



   Revolutionary Quotes
   
   
          
   We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.
          John Wayne Allegheny Uprising
          
   
          
   Restrictions of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of
          all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most
          easily defeat us.
          William O. Douglas
          
   
          
   The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's for which the sheep
          thanks the shepherd as his liberator, while the wolf denounces
          him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty. Plainly, the
          sheep and the wolf are not agreed upon a definition of liberty.
          
          Abraham Lincoln 
          
   
          
   The Revolution was effected before the war commenced. The Revolution
          was in the minds and hearts of the people. This radical change
          in the principles, opinions, sentiments and affections of the
          people was the real American Revolution.
          John Adams
          
   
          
   Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent
          revolution inevitable.
          John F. Kennedy
          
   
          
   Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of
          others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny
          ripple of hope...build(ing) a current that can sweep down the
          mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.
          Robert F. Kennedy
          
   
          
   Those who suppress freedom always do so in the name of law and order.
          John V. Lindsay
          
   
          
   Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are
          men who want rain without thunder and lightning.
          Frederick Douglass
          
   
          
   All civilization has from time to time become a thin crust over a
          volcano of revolution.
          Havelock Ellis
          
   
          
   Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's
          inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary.
          Reinhold Niebuhr
          
   
          
   This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit
          it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government,
          they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or
          their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.
          Abraham Lincoln
          
   
          
   The French Revolution of a hundred and fifty years ago gradually
          ushered in an age of political equality, but the times have
          changed, and that by itself is not enough today. The boundaries
          of democracy have to be widened now so as to include economic
          equality also. This is the great revolution through which we
          are all passing.
          Jawaharlal Nehru
          
   
          
   If our economy of freedom fails to distribute wealth as ably as it has
          created it, the road to dictatorship will be open to any man
          who can persuasively promise security to all.
          Will Durant
          
   
          
   Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgement and
          for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support
          the totalitarian state.
          John Dewey
          
   
          
   I call that mind free which jealously guards its intellectual rights
          and powers, which calls no man master, which does not content
          itself with a passive or hereditary faith, which opens itself
          to light whencesoever it may come, which receives new truth as
          an angel from Heaven.
          William Ellery Channing
          
   
          
   A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves.
          Bertrand de Jouvenel
          
   
          
   All the higher, more penetrating ideals are revolutionary. They
          present themselves far less in the guise of effects of past
          experience than in that of probable causes of future
          experience.
          William James
          
   
          
   A regime, an established order, is rarely overthrown by a
          revolutionary movement; usually a regime collapses of its own
          weakness and corruption and then a revolutionary movement
          enters among the ruins and takes over the powers that have
          become vacant.
          Walter Lippman
          
   
          
   Government is, or ought to be, instituted for the common benefit and
          security of the people, nation or community; whenever any
          government shall be found inadequate or contrary to these
          purposes, a majority of the community hath an indubitable,
          unalienable, indefeasible right, to reform, alter, or abolish
          it, in such manner as shall be judged most conducive to the
          public Weal.
          George Mason
          
   
          
   You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You
          must have a democracy in order to have a revolution.
          G.K. Chesterton
          
   
          
   Here in America we a descended in blood and in spirit from
          revolutionists and rebels- men and women who dared to dissent
          from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, we may never confuse
          honest dissent with disloyal subversion.
          Dwight Eisenhower
          
   
          
   There is no substitute for a militant freedom.
          Calvin Coolidge
          
   
          
   He who would be free must strike the first blow.
          Frederick Douglass
          
   
          
   Those who give the first shock to a state are the first overwhelmed in
          its ruin; the fruits of public commotion are seldom enjoyed by
          him who was the first mover; he only beats the water for
          another's net.
          Michel De Montaigne
          
   
          
   There is a kind of revolution of so general a character that it
          changes the tastes as well as the fortunes of the world.
          La Rochefoucauld
          
   
          
   The art of revolutionizing and overturning states is to undermine
          established customs, by going back to their origin, in order to
          mark their want of justice.
          Blaise Pascal
          
   
          
   Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the
          property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under
          arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with
          the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further
          obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath
          provided for all men against force and violence.
          John Locke
          
   
          
   Everything I see about me is sowing the seeds of a revolution that is
          inevitable, though I shall not have the pleasure of seeing it.
          The lightning is so close at hand that it will strike at the
          first chance, and then there will be a pretty uproar. The young
          are fortunate, for they will see fine things.
          Voltaire
          
   
          
   The most sensible and jealous people are so little attentive to
          government that there are no instances of resistance until
          repeated, multiplied oppressions have placed it beyond a doubt
          that their rulers had formed settled plans to deprive them of
          their liberties; not to oppress an individual or a few, but to
          break down the fences of a free constitution, and deprive the
          people at large of all share in the government, and all the
          checks by which it is limited.
          John Adams
          
   
          
   It is an observation of one of the profoundest inquirers into human
          affairs that a revolution of government is the strongest proof
          that can be given by a people of their virtue and good sense.
          John Adams
          
   
          
   To dare: that is the whole secret of revolutions.
          Antoine Saint-Just
          
   
          
   An oppressed people are authorized whenever they can to rise and break
          their fetters.
          Henry Clay
          
   
          
   Wherever a man comes, there comes revolution. The old is for slaves.
          Ralph Waldo Emerson
          
   
          
   Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communist revolution. The
          proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a
          world to win. Working men of all countries, unite!
          Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels
          
   
          
   All men recognize the right of revolution: that is, the right to
          refuse allegiance to, or to resist, the government when its
          tyranny or its inefficiency are great and unendurable.
          Henry David Thoreau
          
   
          
   Insurgents are like conquerors: they must go forward. The moment they
          are stopped they are lost.
          Wellington
          
   
          
   Revolutions are not made: they come. A revolution is as natural a
          growth as an oak. It comes out of the past. Its foundations are
          laid far back.
          Wendell Phillips
          
   
          
   Revolutions never go backwards.
          William Henry Steward
          
   
          
   The French revolution was a machine invented and constructed for the
          purpose of manufacturing liberty; but it had neither lever
          cogs, nor adjusting powers, and the consequences were that it
          worked so rapidly that it destroyed its own inventors, and set
          itself on fire.
          C.C. Colton
          
   
          
   Great revolutions, whatever may be their causes, are not lightly
          commenced, and are not concluded with precipitation.
          Benjamin Disraeli
          
   
          
   A reform is a correction of abuses; a revolution is a transfer of
          power.
          E.G. Bulwer-Lytton
          
   
          
   Whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty
          manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are
          ineffectual, the people may, and of a right ought to reform the
          old, or establish a new government; the doctrine of
          non-resistance against arbitrary power and oppression is
          absurd, slavish and destructive of the good and happiness of
          mankind.
          Declaration of Rights, Maryland
          
   
          
   There are but three ways for the populace to escape its wretched lot.
          The first two are by the routes of the wine-shop or the church;
          the third is by that of the social revolution.
          M.A. Bakunin
          
   
          
   Revolutions are not made by men in spectacles.
          Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.
          
   
          
   Revolutions are not made with rosewater.
          E.G. Bulwer-Lytton
          
   
          
   It is not the insurrections of ignorance that are dangerous, but the
          revolts of intelligence.
          James Russell Lowell
          
   
          
   The right to revolution is an inherent one. When people are oppressed
          by their government, it is a natural right they enjoy to
          relieve themselves of the oppression, if they are strong
          enough, either by withdrawal from it, or by overthrowing it and
          substituting a government more acceptable.
          U.S. Grant
          
   
          
   Revolutions can no longer be achieved by minorities. No matter how
          energetic and intelligent a minority may be, it is not enough,
          in modern times at least, to make a revolution. The cooperation
          of a majority, and a large majority too, is needed.
          Jean Jaures
          
   
          
   One of the chief symptoms of every revolution is the sharp and sudden
          increase in the number of ordinary people who take an active,
          independent and forceful interest in politics.
          Nikolai Lenin
          
   
          
   It is impossible to predict the time and progress of revolution. It is
          governed by its own more or less mysterious laws. But when it
          comes it moves irresistibly.
          Nikolai Lenin
          
   
          
   We must enter and take possession of the consciences of the children,
          of the consciences of the young, because they do belong, and
          should belong to the revolution.
          Plutarco Calles
          
   
          
   Those who are inclined to compromise can never make a revolution.
          Kemal Ataturk
          
   
          
   He that accepts protection, stipulates obedience. We have always
          protected the Americans; we may therefore subject them to
          government.
          Samuel Johnson
          
   
          
   If there was ever a just war since the world began, it is this in
          which America is now engaged.
          Thomas Paine
          
   
          
   I desired as many as could to join together in fasting and prayer,
          that God would restore the spirit of love and of a sound mind
          to the poor deluded rebels in America.
          John Wesley
          
   
          
   If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop
          was landed in my country I never would lay down my arms,-
          never! never! never!
          William Pitt
          
   
          
   The American Revolution was a vindication of liberties inherited and
          possessed. It was a conservative revolution.
          William E. Gladstone
          
   
          
   Who draws his sword against his prince must throw away the scabbard.
          James Howell
          
   
          
   Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   My call is the call of battle- I nourish active rebellion;/ He going
          with me must go well armed.
          Walt Whitman
          
   
          
   Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's
          original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has
          been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.
          Oscar Wilde
          
   
          
   Disobedience, the rarest and most courageous of the virtues, is seldom
          distinguished from neglect, the laziest and commonest of the
          vices.
          George Bernard Shaw
          
   
          
   Tyranny brings ignorance and brutality with it. It degrades men from
          their just rank into the class of brutes; it damps their
          spirits; it suppresses art; it extinguishes every spark of
          noble ardor and generosity in the breasts of those who are
          enslaved by it; it makes naturally strong and great minds
          feeble and little, and triumphs over the ruins of virtue and
          humanity.
          Jonathan Mayhew
          
   
          
   No government power can be abused long. Mankind will not bear it.
          Samuel Johnson
          
   
          
   Some boast of being friends to government; I am a friend to righteous
          government, to a government founded upon the principles of
          reason and justice; but I glory in publicly avowing my eternal
          enmity to tyranny.
          John Hancock
          
   
          
   The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.
          John Hay
          
   
          
   It is lawful and hath been held so through all ages for any one who
          have the power to call to account a tyrant or wicked king, and
          after due conviction to depose and put him to death.
          John Milton
          
   
          
   If a sovereign oppresses his people to a degree they will rise and cut
          off his head. There is a remedy in human nature against tyranny
          that will keep us safe under every form of government.
          Samuel Johnson
          
   
          
   'Twixt kings and tyrants there's this difference known;/ Kings seek
          their subjects' good: tyrants their own.
          Robert Herrick
          
   
          
   The mob is easily led and may be moved by the smallest force, so that
          its agitations have a wonderful resemblance to those of the
          sea.
          Polybius
          
   
          
   The common people suffer when the powerful disagree.
          Phaedrus
          
   
          
   Do not wonder if the common people speak more truly than those above
          them: they speak more safely.
          Francis Bacon
          
   
          
   Do not be too severe upon the errors of the people, but reclaim them
          by enlightening them.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   The people are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our
          liberty.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   I am not among those who fear the people. They, and not the rich, are
          our dependence for continued freedom.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   The welfare of the people is the supreme law.
          Motto of Missouri
          
   
          
   In your dread of dictators you established a state of society in which
          every ward boss is a dictator, every private employer a
          dictator, every financier a dictator, all with the livelihood
          of the workers at his mercy, and no public responsibility.
          George Bernard Shaw
          
   
          
   It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep
          the rest in order.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   Arbitrary rule has its basis, not in the strength of the state or the
          chief, but in the moral weakness of the individual, who submits
          almost without resistance to the domineering power.
          Friedrich Hatzel
          
   
          
   Despotism has forever had a powerful hold upon the world. Autocratic
          government, not self-government, has been the prevailing state
          of mankind. The record of past history is the record, not of
          the success of republics, but of their failure.
          Calvin Coolidge
          
   
          
   It violates right order whenever capital so employs the working or
          wage-earning classes as to divert business and economic
          activity entirely to its own arbitrary will and advantage,
          without any regard to the human dignity of the workers, the
          social character of economic life, social justice, and the
          common good.
          Pope Pius XI
          
   
          
   The foundation on which (our government is) built is the natural
          equality of man, the denial of every pre-eminence but that
          annexed to legal office, and particularly the denial of a
          pre-eminence by birth.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   When the government violates the people's rights, insurrection is, for
          the people and for each portion of the people, the most sacred
          of rights and the most indispensable of duties.
          Marquis De Lafayette
          
   
          
   Revolution is the larva of civilization.
          Victor Hugo
          
   
          
   General rebellions and revolts of a whole people never were encouraged
          now or at any time. They are always provoked.
          Edmuns Burke
          
   
          
   It is only by instigation of the wrongs of men that what we call the
          rights of men become turbulent and dangerous.
          James Russell Lowell
          
   
          
   Revolutions are like the most noxious dungheaps, which bring into life
          the noblest vegetables.
          Napoleon
          
   
          
   When all other rights are taken away, the right of rebellion is made
          perfect.
          Thomas Paine
          
   
          
   Caesar had his Brutus, Charles the First his Cromwell, and George the
          Third may profit by their example. If this be treason, make the
          most of it.
          Patrick Henry
          
   
          
   None but tyrants have any business to be afraid.
          Hardouin de Perefixe
          
   
          
   He who strikes terror into others is himself in continual fear.
          Claudian
          
   
          
   Tyrants have not yet discovered any chains that can fetter the mind.
          Colton
          
   
          
   There is something about men more capable of shaking despotic power
          than lightening, whirlwind, or earthquake, that is, the
          threatened indignation of the whole civilized world.
          Daniel Webster
          
   
          
   Anarchy is the sure consequence of tyranny; for no power that is not
          limited by laws can ever be protected by them.
          John Milton
          
   
          
   One sharp, stern struggle, and the slaves of centuries are free.
          George Massey
          
   
          
   The bigger a state becomes the more liberty diminishes.
          Jean Jacques Rousseau
          
   
          
   Every generation must wage a new war for freedom against new forces
          which seek through new devices to enslave mankind.
          Progressive Party Platform
          
   
          
   The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
          Edmund Burke
          
   
          
   Tyrants are always assassinated too late. That is their great excuse.
          E.M. Cioran
          
          
   There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to
          conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the
          lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
          Machiavelli
          
   
   
   Archimedes' Cockpit | Democracy Wall






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Nov 24 21:26:18 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:26:18 +0800
Subject: quotes2.htm#During-the-War:
Message-ID: <199711250528.XAA16560@einstein.ssz.com>



   
   
   Revolutionary War Quotations
   
   By Kristen Ballard
   
   Contents:
   
   Introduction | Before the War | During the War | Conclusion |
   Bibliography
   
   Introduction:
   
   Many famous quotes came from the Revolutionary War. Quotes were said
   by people to express and tell other people their feelings. Many quotes
   effected people during battles, and some quotes led to the beginning
   of some battles.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   Before The War:
   
   
   
   "If this be treason, make the most of it!"
   
   This quote was said by Patrick Henry at the time of the Stamp Act in
   1964. His purpose for saying this was to defend himself. This quote
   helped from a patriot group called the Stamp Act Congress.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "If our Trade be taxed, why not our Lands, or Produce� in short,
   everything we possess? They tax us without having legal
   representation."
   
   This quote was said by Samuel Adams after the Stamp Act of 1765. His
   purpose for saying this was to make people go against the idea of
   having the trade taxed. The effect it had was it made other Americans
   think about what had happened and many became discontent.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "The distinctions between Virginians, Pennsylvanians, New Yorkers, and
   New Englanders are no more. I AM NOT A VIRGINIAN, BUT AN AMERICAN!"
   
   This quote was said by Patrick Henry in 1774 right after the Boston
   Tea Party had taken place. His purpose for saying this was to keep
   self-interest from destroying the common effort of some Americans. The
   effect it had was that it made American colonists work together and it
   angered the British.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "� the very tails of American sheep are so are so laden with wool that
   each sheep has little wagon to support its tail and to keep it from
   trailing on the ground."
   
   This quote was written by Benjamin Franklin after "Braddock�s Defeat"
   in the London Chronicle. His purpose for saying this was to mock the
   English. It made the English mad and brought up several arguments
   about governing the colonies in America.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "� I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me
   liberty or give me death!"
   
   This quote was said by Patrick Henry at a meeting of the First
   Continental Congress in 1774. His purpose for saying this was to make
   the Americans fight for liberty and independence. The effect it had
   was it played an important part on the making of the Declaration of
   Independence.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   During the War:
   
   
   
   "Don�t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it
   begin here."
   
   This quote was said by Captain John Parker after Paul Revere�s ride in
   April of 1775 in the town of Lexington. His purpose for saying this
   was that he didn�t want to start the war, but if the British did, they
   would fight. This began the Revolutionary War when one shot went off
   because all of the British men started firing furiously.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "..Should the colonies send an army of two or three thousand man and
   attack Montreal, we should have little to fear from the Canadians or
   Indians, and would easily make a conquest of that place� "
   
   This quote was written by Ethan Allen in 1775 after the war had begun.
   His purpose for saying this was because he wanted to fight the British
   and to tell his army that they shouldn�t be afraid of the Indians or
   the Canadians because they could defeat them. This made it impossible
   for restoration of harmony.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "I move that these united colonies ought to be free and independent�"
   
   This quote was said by Richard Henry Lee in 1776 at the writing of the
   Deceleration of Independence. His purpose for saying this was to tell
   how the American colonists felt about freedom and independence.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "�On our side, the war should be defensive� we are now in a
   [dangerous] position. Declining an engagement to flight may throw
   discouragement over the minds of many, but when the fate of America
   may be at Stake, we should continue the war as long as possible�"
   
   This quote was written by George Washington in 1776. His purpose for
   saying this was to tell the Congress that the only way that the small
   Continental Army could win was to fight defensively, and to attack
   only when victory was certain.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "Sink or swim, live or die, survive or perish."
   
   This quote was said be John Adams in 1776 just before the writing of
   the Declaration of Independence. The reason he said this was because
   he was standing up for the idea of the colonies being independent.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "These are the times that try men�s souls�"
   
   This quote was written by Thomas Paine after the writing of the
   Declaration of Independence in a forty-seven page pamphlet called
   Common Sense. His purpose for saying this was to try to persuade the
   Americans to demand independence, rather then try to patch up their
   differences with Great Britain. The effect it had was it made George
   Washington start to prepare his army.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country."
   
   This famous quote was said by Nathan Hale at the retreat of the
   British from New York in August of 1776. His purpose for saying this
   was these were his last words before he was hanged. This quote showed
   the spirit of the fighting Americans.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "May it please Your Honor, I surrounded them!"
   
   This quote was said by Sam Clowney at the Battle of Camden. He said
   this because he was fooling five Tories into believing that he had a
   whole army with him. The effect it had was Clowney took them prisoner
   and he impressed Colonel Thomas.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "Where a goat can go, a man can go; and where a man can go, he can
   drag a gun."
   
   This quote was said by Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne at the Battle at
   Mount Defiance. He said this to encourage his troops to drag their
   cannons and weapons up Sugarloaf Mountain (Mount Defiance). The effect
   it had was General St. Clair ordered the patriots to abandon the fort
   because they knew that they were at the mercy of the men on Sugarloaf
   Mountain.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "�Let us die here rather than retreat."
   
   This quote was said by Alexander Hamilton at the Battle of Monmouth.
   He said this to convince General Lee not to retreat. The effect it had
   was it gave General Lee hope. It also caused the British to retreat
   and sneak away to New York.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "Tie up overcoats, pick touch-holes, fresh prime, and be ready to
   FIGHT!"
   
   This quote was said by Ben Cleveland at the Battle of Kings Mountain.
   He said this as the Americans were going out to fight the British. He
   said this to prepare his men for the battle. The effect it had was it
   made the Americans aware of how badly Cleveland wanted to win this
   battle. The Americans surrounded the British and took six hundred
   prisoners.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "�I know the cause it desperate; but Sir, we must either quit the
   country or attack."
   
   This quote was said by George Rogers Clark at the Battle of Vincennes
   in February of 1779. His reason for saying this was to convince
   Patrick Henry that Clark and his men must attack the Hair Buyer and
   his men or give up completely. The effect it had was the Indians fled
   because they believed Clark had about a thousand men at the bottom of
   a hill.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "I have not yet begun to fight!"
   
   This quote was said by John Paul Jones at the battle between the
   Bonhomme Richard and the Serapis in September of 179. His purpose for
   saying this was to show that he was not going to give up. The effect
   it had was the battle continued for two more hours and soon after
   that, the Serapis toppled into the water, forcing Pearson to
   surrender.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "I request you will witness to the world that I die like a brave man."
   
   
   This quote was said by John Andr� at the attack from West Point in
   August of 1780. He said this because he was hanged when he was
   pronounced a spy and even though he didn�t do the crime he didn�t
   fight to get free. It had a big effect on certain people. Sir Henry
   Clinton locked himself in his room for three days, and the English
   newspapers raged over the hanging. They called it murder.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "We began a contest for liberty ill provided with the means for the
   war, relying on our patriotism to supply the deficiency. We expected
   to encounter many wants and distressed� we must bear the present evils
   and fortitude�"
   
   This quote was said by George Washington at the battle of West Point
   in 1781. He wrote this because he was telling the army and the people
   on the home front not to give up or lose heart in the battle.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   Conclusion:
   
   Many quotations had important effects on most of the people in the
   Revolutionary War. They made some people very mad, some happy, some
   confused, and they even made some people proud. Quotes had a lot of
   thought put into them. Some people have to this awhile before they can
   understand them.
   
   
   
   Bibliography:
   
   Ingraham, Leonard W. An Album of the Americans Revolution.
   
   New York, New York: Franklin Watts, 1971
   
   Lawson, Don. The American Revolution; America�s Fist War for
   Independence.
   
   New York, New York: Abenlard-Schuman, 1974
   
   Reeder, Colonel Red. The Story of the Revolutionary War.
   
   New York, New York: Meredith Press, 1959
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   Table of Contents | Projects Menu | Greece Home Page






From cc at 4planetsolutions.com  Tue Nov 25 14:10:53 1997
From: cc at 4planetsolutions.com (cc at 4planetsolutions.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 6 Minutes Please
Message-ID: <>




I know you are busy, but this is important, Can You Spare 6 Minutes?

For years, we have heard about environmental problems facing the planet.

We talk about saving the rivers, the ocean, the whales, the rain forests and the ozone.

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It was not far away.  It was in my home!

Fortunately, I am able to fix it, so can you!
 
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Thank you for your time, to prevent receiving mail from 
our service, please click on this link,
mailto:cc at 4planetsolutions.com?subject=remove
and hit send or reply with remove in the the subject. Thank You.






From cc at 4planetsolutions.com  Tue Nov 25 14:10:53 1997
From: cc at 4planetsolutions.com (cc at 4planetsolutions.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 6 Minutes Please
Message-ID: <>




I know you are busy, but this is important, Can You Spare 6 Minutes?

For years, we have heard about environmental problems facing the planet.

We talk about saving the rivers, the ocean, the whales, the rain forests and the ozone.

They are all important.

But, candidly, they seem far away� beyond our personal control.

Recently I was surprised to learn of the worst environmental hazard 
in my life.  It was a serious threat to me and my family.

It was not far away.  It was in my home!

Fortunately, I am able to fix it, so can you!
 
I solved an insidious health threat to my family. 

If your home is typical, you may have the same problem.

The good news is that you can easily fix it, while saving money!

Please visit our web site about this major problem and its' solution,

http://www.4planetsolutions.com/cc/

Thank you for your time, to prevent receiving mail from 
our service, please click on this link,
mailto:cc at 4planetsolutions.com?subject=remove
and hit send or reply with remove in the the subject. Thank You.






From fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU  Mon Nov 24 22:50:23 1997
From: fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU (Fabrice Planchon)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:50:23 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711250350.VAA16081@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971125013501.07371@math.princeton.edu>



[ok, there we go again... this will be my last post on the subject which
is way-off topic by now. If it wasn't for the reference to Vichy I
wouldn't answer on the list]

On lun 24 nov  1997 � 09:50:54PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> strategic form is binary or possibly unitary. I would further feel
> historicaly supported to propose that given sufficient time, resources, and
> planning this situation will develop *and* devlolve to either a binary or a
> unitary form. A recent example was the Soviet Union. The interesting question
> is whether the current apparent unitary position of the US will devlove into
> a multi-party situation or whether it can actualy win over by some means the
> other parties to willing cooperation.

That's where we disagree (and other too, I hope). For one thing, you say
yourself "the current unitary position". I don't think today you could
that easily invade Canada, in a remake of 1812 and get away with it that
easily. That, and the fact the concept of nations is dead, or soon to be
(insert here your favorite rant on crypto-anarchy).

> I challenge the thesis that the Japanese would have had to put a soldier in
> every house. Consider the situation in Vichy France and it's relationship
> with German occupiers. The Chinese could certainly have no higher level of
> objectionable feelings. Yet the Vichy French as a rule were quite
> cooperative in supporting German goals. Even to the point of firing on their
> French brothers in North Africa.

Reread my previous posts, I was careful enough to mention Vichy, knowing
that it would pop up later, as a cheap shot. So, I said something like
it works only if you get the approval of the locals, or at least their
indifference (example: Vichy). Discussions of why and how this was
possible is beyond the scope of the current argument, and I don't feel
particulary bound to defend the weakness of my fellow countrymen during
this period. I will just add that even if the population was generally
quiet, the resistance activity was still a constant nuisance. So,
slightly ahead from such a situation, you have, pick up the one you
like, Afghanistan, Tchetchenia (or whatever the english word is), former
Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Algeria (now and when the bad guys were the french)
were maintaining order is a PITA.
As for North Africa, I am not sure about what you are refering to, but
say when the americans arrived in 43, despite orders to resist there
weren't a lot of fights (certainly no fight would have been better but
tension accounts for a great part. Remember Mers-el-Kebir ?)

> Why? The Tripartite Pact wasn't signed until Sept. 27, 1940. A considerable
> time before this Churchill had been sending letters to Mussolini requesting

I never challenged any of these facts. I just gave you one, proving that
Mussolini position changed from hostility to friendship. That's
all. Check the facts I mentionned.

                       F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735








From cypango at mxtro.com  Mon Nov 24 23:41:22 1997
From: cypango at mxtro.com (cypango at mxtro.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:41:22 +0800
Subject: Diamonds, diamonds.
Message-ID: <199711250720.XAA02003@toad.com>




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Please reply with "remove" in the subject line for easy and permanent 
removal from our mailing list.






From jmr at shopmiami.com  Tue Nov 25 00:04:12 1997
From: jmr at shopmiami.com (Jim Ray)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:04:12 +0800
Subject: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971125024708.3bc74668@pop.gate.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:31 PM 11/24/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>*********
>
>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1594,00.html
>
>The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
>November 24, 1997
>
>Anonymity At Any Cost
>by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

The conference must have been interesting. I wish I'd been there.
A few random thoughts:

1. The article doesn't bring this out, but Infonex hosts many/most
of the US based remailers, including the one Joey Grasty and I run
(ran, actually, as we are facing a technical problem at the moment
due to an anti-spam measure taken by Infonex). This makes Lance a
"choke point," just as Sameer was when c2 was in the ISP business.
ISPs with that "go get a warrant/court order" attitude aren't too
common. Telecommunications businesses (especially phone companies)
have historically cooperated with law enforcement.

2. I think that the courts will look at paid-for anonymity cases in
a different way from cases where anonymity is "donated" by trouble-
makers like Joey Grasty. I doubt, for example, that the feds learned
nothing in the Zimmermann case about picking defendants. My buddy
Joey - working at Motorola and living with a wife, cute kid, mother
in law, and cat - is fortunately not that defendant, IMO. A nasty-
looking Austrian Nazi, paying a US provider to break Austrian laws,
just might be. [Ironic that the anonymity which protects him would
certainly be outlawed under the very system that he advocates.]

3. I'd be interested to know the make-up of, and arguments put forth
by, the group(s) which decided the government should limit anonymity.
Obviously, they weighed the costs differently than many of us would.

4. No remailer operator that I am aware of would keep logs for Freeh,
we'd all shut down instead. Keeping records, even if not directly for
law enforcement, automatically makes you a target for them, and for
compelled disclosure by civil attorneys in discovery. "Don't do it,
mon."

If (when) a law or treaty gets passed with the effect of outlawing
anonymous browsing/remailers, it won't appear with a nice, easy to
understand preface that says: "this is an act to outlaw anonymity,
and/or require anonymous service providers to keep records for law
enforcement." It will probably look more like the recent criminal
copyright bill, and rely on hard-to-interpret words like "willful,"
which morph as they move from a civil to a criminal realm. My old
nemesis, the changing definition of the word "escrow," was merely a
warning. Future definition fudging is unlikely to be as brazen, but
will probably be just as dangerous to freedom and privacy.
JMR
[Since I'm not directly on c-punks, please cc any replies to me.]

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 25 00:15:31 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:15:31 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711250808.JAA01545@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 02:20:34AM +0100, Anonymous [Monty Cantsin] wrote:
>> Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>> >Once again, if 1812 the [British] invasion [of the United States] actually occured,...
>> 
>> They burned the White House to the ground.  Does that count?  ;-)
>
>Oups... of course I made a typo, and everybody read "in 1812
>yadayadayada".  And yes it counts and I like it...

I assume you are in the U.S. on a visa, right?  I would recommend
using a remailer for this sort of seditious comment.  (Seriously!)

>...(just because the initial reason for this mess was the tentative
>to take over Canada, and it just illustrates that the US were already
>as any other country, trying to take over their neighbours ;-) Of
>course nowadays you don't see that they miserabily failed on that
>occasion)

As late as the 1930s, the U.S. Army had detailed plans for an invasion
of Canada.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From blancw at cnw.com  Tue Nov 25 00:53:19 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:53:19 +0800
Subject: For the ADD Afflicted
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971125001454.006f1bd8@cnw.com>




Check out http://www.handle.org for an alternative solution to drugs.


    ..
Blanc






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 25 00:56:27 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:56:27 +0800
Subject: Free speech and jlist groups press conf on ratings (12/1)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971125033024.0bdf946a@pop.mindspring.com>



At 02:34 PM 11/24/97 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>                         ** MEDIA ADVISORY **
>
>           Press Conference on Internet Ratings and Filtering
>
>
>WHO:   Internet Free Expression Alliance (IFEA)
>
>WHAT:  Press conference announcing the formation of IFEA, a coalition of
>organizations devoted to the continuation of the Internet as a forum for
>open expression and to identify new threats to free expression and First
>Amendment values on the Internet, whether legal or technological.
>
>WHEN:  Monday, December 1, 12:30 p.m.
>
>WHERE: First Amendment Lounge
>       National Press Club
>       14th & F Streets, N.W.
>       Washington, DC
>
>WHY:   To address the free speech issues raised by proposals to rate
>and filter "objectionable" content on the Internet.  

        Is there any suggestion as to the first meaning to define
"objectionable"? 

        Of course not. That would limit the number of expense paid trips
around the country definitions the organization paying the bills does not
agree with. 

        "Objectionable" means anyone can write off a pseudo-vacation. And
you do not eveb have to show up for the sessions and interupt the
sightseeing tour. 




-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 25 00:57:30 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:57:30 +0800
Subject: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971125032250.0e3719dc@pop.mindspring.com>



At 12:31 PM 11/24/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>*********

>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1594,00.html

>The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
>November 24, 1997

>Anonymity At Any Cost
>by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

>        When Lance Cottrell created an easy-to-use anonymous e-mail service
>	back in 1994, he feared that nobody would use it. "I used to be
>	worried that people didn't want anonymity enough to pay for it,"
>	he says. Today his company, Infonex, boasts 3,000 customers who
>	pay $60 a year to browse the Web without leaving behind digital
>	footprints. 

        Making the cookie read only and erasing previous additions does the
same thing for free. Cottrell is PT Barnum speaking. 

-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Nov 25 02:30:50 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:30:50 +0800
Subject: Anonymizer rocks! (Re: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971125032250.0e3719dc@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711251009.KAA01273@server.test.net>




Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf at mindspring.com>
> >Anonymity At Any Cost
> >by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
> 
> >        When Lance Cottrell created an easy-to-use anonymous e-mail service
> >	back in 1994, he feared that nobody would use it. "I used to be
> >	worried that people didn't want anonymity enough to pay for it,"
> >	he says. Today his company, Infonex, boasts 3,000 customers who
> >	pay $60 a year to browse the Web without leaving behind digital
> >	footprints. 
> 
>         Making the cookie read only and erasing previous additions does the
> same thing for free. Cottrell is PT Barnum speaking. 

That's no where near what the anonymizer does for you.

For $60 Lance gives a years use of an SSL connection to an anonymizing
web proxy.  That means as well as stripping out the cookies, browser
type, and other identifying info -- it means that your IP# isn't even
listed, and what's more passive snoops (eg snoopy Feds) of net traffic
into and out of infonex might have a bit of problem figuring out who
was accessing what under the cover of SSL.  

(Modulo traffic analysis -- web traffic is patchy, pauses in transfer
will show through the SSL layer, so you would probably be better off
browsing the dodgy stuff at peak web usage times, for the cover
traffic.)

I think Lance's success with this is tremendously good for privacy,
and it is also a positive to see that some people do care enough about
privacy to pay for it.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From srf at venus.gmds.com  Tue Nov 25 20:07:15 1997
From: srf at venus.gmds.com (srf at venus.gmds.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:07:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Arthritis Suffer's!!!    Read this NOW!!!
Message-ID: <19971125711XAA23663@post.ix.netcom.com>


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From kelsey at plnet.net  Tue Nov 25 04:36:46 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:36:46 +0800
Subject: NBC Mugs Jim Bell
Message-ID: <199711251228.GAA07808@email.plnet.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 11/21/97 ##
  Subject: Re: NBC Mugs Jim Bell ]

>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:34:33 -0500
>From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
>Subject: NBC Mugs Jim Bell

>An NBC News story this evening on the threat of CB terrorism
>full-screened a closeup of Jim Bell's mug shot, the same as
>the lead photo in US News last week. The story presented
>much the same line and Internet sources of frightening
>information but did not balance it with a sidebar on
>burgeoning anti-terrorist opportunism as did US News.

I guess the good news is, we've finally figured out why
they've been holding him so long before sentencing--to make
sure he doesn't miss any of his scheduled media events.
Or perhaps, given the nature of the coverage, to make sure
he *does* miss them all.  We need a good posterboy for one
of the Four Horsemen, to ensure the passage of next year's
Guaranteeing Freedom through Imposition of a Benevolent
Police State Act of 1999, and the following year's
appointment of first lady Tipper Gore as Internet Czar.

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36






From goddesshera at juno.com  Tue Nov 25 05:11:49 1997
From: goddesshera at juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:11:49 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0 ConsensuS?? -- is it usable?
Message-ID: <19971125.060408.8463.10.goddesshera@juno.com>



Do you think that it is a good idea to migrate from pgp 2.6.3 to
pgp 5.0 now?



This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera at juno.com>.






From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov 25 06:24:25 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:24:25 +0800
Subject: News of Jim Bell
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971125141228.006e499c@pop.pipeline.com>



Anonymous forwarded three local news stories about Jim's
sentencing:

   http://jya.com/jimbell6.htm

An excerpt:

  In a hearing in U.S. District Court in Tacoma this morning, 
  Bell 's public defender and an assistant U.S. Attorney recommended 
  a 6-to-12-month jail sentence for Bell as part of a plea-bargain 
  agreement.

  But federal probation officers recommended a sentence of 27 months. 
  In doing so, they said they were looking at the "totality" of Bell's 
  behavior, including the threatening nature of his Internet essay, 
  "Assassination Politics." 

  As a result, U.S. District Court Judge Franklin D. Burgess said he 
  was uncomfortable with the situation. "Somehow I am getting a feeling 
  that somebody knows more about something than I do," Burgess said.

Also reported: Jim had encrypted some of his files. And though "Bell
plead guilty to relatively innocuous charges" IRS investigators
compared him to The Unabomber and Tim McVeigh, and claimed he
was "part of a far darker scheme to assassinate IRS agents and 
topple the   U.S. government."







From bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us  Tue Nov 25 06:29:45 1997
From: bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us (Brandon Crosby)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:29:45 +0800
Subject: Iraq and computers
Message-ID: <199711251420.IAA22997@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>



> Monkey Catskin wrote:
> > Michael Wilson wrote that Reuters wrote:
> > >Quoting U.S. officials and U.N. diplomats, the newspaper said that
> > >Iraqi scientists and defense officials are using Western-made
> > >computers to transfer data from bulky papers to small disks that can
> > >be easily dispersed, making the information difficult for inspectors
> > >to track.
> > This is an interesting development because it also makes it hard for
> > the Iraqi government to track what is going on, too.  The government
> > of Iraq has been aware of the dangers of computers for many years.  At
> > one time they were tightly controlled.  Even typewriters were
> > controlled.  The government had writing samples of each one.
> > Now, apparently, this policy is loosening.  This suggests that U.S.
> > policy of the last 8 years has managed to achieve what Saddam Hussein
> > could not - it has made the Hussein regime a genuinely popular
> > government.
I wonder... does Iraq have a web site?

While third world contries seldom have computer specialists, it seemed
pretty easy for Iraq to get biological weapon specialists working for
them. [Other more sensible arguments exist...]

Iraq has more money than they can reasonably spend, but management
troubles. Solution: IntraIraq, the network with Sadam ads. While burning
papers has some flare to it, it's pretty likely that most of the
classified data not in Sadam's head must be in some computer system[s],
easily housed by the UN no-no sites for inspectors.

Also, can Iraq's people create [and display] web pages?

-Brandon Crosby






From bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us  Tue Nov 25 06:40:35 1997
From: bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us (Brandon Crosby)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:40:35 +0800
Subject: BIOS Help
Message-ID: <199711251426.IAA23064@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>



> Hi Brandon,
> 
> > Does anyone know where specs for Award BIOS chips are? I accidentily
> > locked mine and lost the password.
> Contact Award directly. If you have the data off the tag on the BIOS chip as
> well as the version data on boot you should be able to get a technical
> manual for the particular BIOS your computer uses. Note however that these
> manuals are generaly not cheap, sometimes costing a couple hundred dollars.
> The reason for the price is that it describes the BIOS to such a deep
> extent.
> 
> Review your motherboard, there is usualy a jumper that allows the BIOS
> to be reset. The process usualy goes like:
> 
>  -  turn computer off
>  -  locate jumper and short with a shorting-block
>  -  turn computer on then off
>  -  remove the shorting-block
>  -  the BIOS should be reset
> 
> Don't know if Award has a webpage but you might try www.award.com or one
> of the search engines.
> 
Thanks for your help [and, to someone else for the default password].
OK, not much of a thankyou, I guess... [The default passwd worked]

What is a 'Magic Password'?

-Brandon Crosby






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 25 07:57:08 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:57:08 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711241934.UAA23715@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0400274eb0a087336b03@[139.167.130.248]>



At 2:34 pm -0500 on 11/24/97, Monty wrote:


> Personally, I do not believe in the infallibility of the Supreme
> Court.

This has nothing to do with "infallibility" at all. It has to do with facts
on the ground, Monty. The supreme court has its power because enough people
with guns say it does. (Whoever those people with guns are. :-))

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 25 08:03:19 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:03:19 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711251545.QAA16928@basement.replay.com>



> [ok, there we go again... this will be my last post on the subject which
> is way-off topic by now. If it wasn't for the reference to Vichy I
> wouldn't answer on the list]

There is no such thing as an off topic post on the new cypherpunks list,
at least according to Tim May and Monty Cantsin.  Whatever interests them
is automatically on-topic.






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 25 08:12:04 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:12:04 +0800
Subject: Security Risks in HTTP Proxy Agents (Re: Anonymizer rocks! (Re: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News))
In-Reply-To: <199711251009.KAA01273@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711251534.KAA20197@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711251009.KAA01273 at server.test.net>, on 11/25/97 
   at 05:09 AM, Adam Back <aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf at mindspring.com>
>> >Anonymity At Any Cost
>> >by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
>> 
>> >        When Lance Cottrell created an easy-to-use anonymous e-mail service
>> >	back in 1994, he feared that nobody would use it. "I used to be
>> >	worried that people didn't want anonymity enough to pay for it,"
>> >	he says. Today his company, Infonex, boasts 3,000 customers who
>> >	pay $60 a year to browse the Web without leaving behind digital
>> >	footprints. 
>> 
>>         Making the cookie read only and erasing previous additions does the
>> same thing for free. Cottrell is PT Barnum speaking. 

>That's no where near what the anonymizer does for you.

Absolutly, I can't beleive that Mikhael is *that* clueless.

>For $60 Lance gives a years use of an SSL connection to an anonymizing
>web proxy.  That means as well as stripping out the cookies, browser
>type, and other identifying info -- it means that your IP# isn't even
>listed, and what's more passive snoops (eg snoopy Feds) of net traffic
>into and out of infonex might have a bit of problem figuring out who was
>accessing what under the cover of SSL.  

>(Modulo traffic analysis -- web traffic is patchy, pauses in transfer
>will show through the SSL layer, so you would probably be better off
>browsing the dodgy stuff at peak web usage times, for the cover traffic.)

>I think Lance's success with this is tremendously good for privacy, and
>it is also a positive to see that some people do care enough about
>privacy to pay for it.

I had posted awhile back when these HTTP proxies first appeared about some
inherent security risks with using them.

The biggest problem with any proxy agent is one of trust. When one looks
at what a proxy agent does one can see the scary potentials for abuse.
Lets take the example of the Evil Proxy agent at www.nsa.gov.

Case #1

- -- User connects to Evil Proxy sending a request for it to retreive a web
page. -- Evil Proxy Logs who is connecting, time, and what web pages they
are requesting. -- Evil then retrieves the web pages and transmits them to
the user. -- Evil Proxy processes log data periodically to check for
either Bad User or Bad Web Page usage and flags such activity for the
Lea's.

Case #2

- -- User connects to Evil Proxy sending a request for it to retreive a web
page. -- Evil Proxy Logs who is connecting, time, and what web pages they
are requesting. -- Evil Proxy finds that web page in Bad Web Page list.
- -- Evil Proxy returns a forged web page to the user rather than the page
that the user requested. (imagine such a proxy being set-up to flag any
pgp.zip file requests and returning pgp_nsa_spoof.zip instead.) -- Evil
Proxy processes log data periodically to check for either Bad User or Bad
Web Page usage and flags such activity for the Lea's.

Case #3 (This is theoretical as I am not sure it is possessable with
current browsers)

- -- User connects to Evil Proxy sending a request for it to retreive a web
page. -- Evil Proxy Logs who is connecting, time, and what web pages they
are requesting. -- Evil Proxy finds that User in Bad User list.
- -- Evil Proxy returns the requested web page but also returns an extra
file which is saved to the Users HD without his knowledge (imagine storing
some kiddie porn gif's on a political opponents computer). -- Evil Proxy
processes log data periodically to check for either Bad User or Bad Web
Page usage and flags such activity for the Lea's.

A less damming case but still troublesome would be where Evil Proxy was
being run by commercial interest rather than governmental:

Case #4 (Not much different than Case #1)

- -- User connects to Evil Proxy sending a request for it to retreive a web
page. -- Evil Proxy Logs who is connecting, time, and what web pages they
are requesting. -- Evil then retrieves the web pages and transmits them to
the user. -- Evil Proxy processes log data periodically and sells it to
whomever want's it (Lea's, Spamford, GM, Microsoft, ... ect).

I think that you can see that the security of HTTP Proxies is the same for
a single E-Mail remailer. The natural evolution for these proxies is to
use chaining and encryption in the same way e-mail is processed through
remailers.

- -- Chaining of Proxies
- -- Multiple Layers of Encryption with the inner most layer being
end-to-end encryption.

HTTP proxies are good but still have a long way to go.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNHrvxo9Co1n+aLhhAQEZ2AP/XToQgVc9bgGZqupPUZUc14cXjiTLTYOn
tZFH8qy6fWnOyy6kz+zCZkn6R6rQ9nr7r1VTpVaYpA05hUzocO8YIDUBPlI6ZMBH
FJjFE/i3N4NK3IeS4w6nfDh1gV8OmHAB/oX++Fmv0zmLSFAgDDijHEf0LkrNkOTm
kwLlF+Pj8OY=
=hn/s
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 25 08:18:21 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:18:21 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711251545.QAA16928@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711251602.LAA20436@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711251545.QAA16928 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/25/97 
   at 10:45 AM, Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> said:

>> [ok, there we go again... this will be my last post on the subject which
>> is way-off topic by now. If it wasn't for the reference to Vichy I
>> wouldn't answer on the list]

>There is no such thing as an off topic post on the new cypherpunks list,
>at least according to Tim May and Monty Cantsin.  Whatever interests them
>is automatically on-topic.

Seems like a little jealousy to me.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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d/SF2r7NEIb+wCm6xRPZP8lLR0e35q+OwnYP2YpehzgFYdPTOvoi+80NcFBtS3Dk
+RIzhUU/3SE=
=2ctz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jellicle at inch.com  Tue Nov 25 08:50:43 1997
From: jellicle at inch.com (Michael Sims)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:50:43 +0800
Subject: Dear subscribers
Message-ID: <199711251638.LAA09841@arutam.inch.com>



Dear subscribers to the Cypherpunks list --

	Mikhael Frieden, mikhaelf at mindspring.com, is an alias for Matt
Giwer, a name I hope many of you will recognize.  On the F-C list, he
is now the origin of perhaps 25% of the traffic, as much as 50% some
days, most of which are standard, clueless, trolling, or lying
responses which are designed to suck people into endless replies
like those on what the Anonymizer does or does not do.  William
Geiger writes, "Absolutly, I can't beleive that Mikhael is *that*
clueless."  Well, yes.  When you're trying to troll, you are that
clueless.  We here on the F-C list are hoping to sort of ignore him
and hope he'll go away -- all I see of him are the number of
messages hitting my to-be-deleted folder and the endless replies
cross-posted from cypherpunks.

See:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

Giwer will even accuse *himself* of lying.

Please do the people on F-C a favor by not cross-posting any replies
that are off-topic for F-C, and hell, while I'm at it, by not
replying to Giwer at all for any reason.  If you're not careful
he'll join cypherpunks.


-- Michael Sims
[I'm not on cypherpunks - reply by direct email only, please]






From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov 25 09:02:06 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 01:02:06 +0800
Subject: RFC on Infrastructure Aliens
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971125164039.006ecfb4@pop.pipeline.com>



BXA issued today an RFC for the recent PCCIP report
on threats to the nation's infrastructure. It provides a
handy summary of the report's findings and proposals
for policy, technology, law and arms-waving of insider
gov, com and edu to protect their children against outside 
techno-bugabears:

   http://jya.com/bxa-pccip-rfc.htm  (14K)







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov 25 10:09:17 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:09:17 +0800
Subject: Moderated vs. Unmoderated Lists
In-Reply-To: <199711251545.QAA16928@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0a0ab3a309a@[207.167.93.63]>



At 8:45 AM -0700 11/25/97, Anonymous wrote:
>> [ok, there we go again... this will be my last post on the subject which
>> is way-off topic by now. If it wasn't for the reference to Vichy I
>> wouldn't answer on the list]
>
>There is no such thing as an off topic post on the new cypherpunks list,
>at least according to Tim May and Monty Cantsin.  Whatever interests them
>is automatically on-topic.

Notice I chose not to debate Jim Choate in gory detail about his
interpretation of the origins of the world wars...I limited my comment to
my early comment, that the U.S. has not been in any legitimate wars for
nearly two centuries.

This has crypto anarchy relevance in that strong crypto will undermine the
ability of the U.S. government to fight foreign wars and engange in foreign
entanglements. How this will happen should be obvious.

Yes, I talk about what interests me. A single essay I _write_ represents my
views. I avoid cc:ing the list with forwarded stuff from Yahoo, as some are
wont to do.

Thus, I feel no guilt about writing some essay or article on something of
interest to me.

The Cypherpunks list is NOT moderated, and has no official charter. In the
last few years, many have left because what they really wanted to talk
about were job-related crypto questions, or SET, or Mondex, or elliptic
curve systems, and they didn't want to hear about the political
implications, the FBI actions, the effects on currencies, etc.

Thus were the lists "coderpunks" and "cryptography" born. Both are
moderated by their owners, and hence Anonymous may be happier spending his
or her time on one or both of these lists.

And there are several other "owned" lists out there.

Me, I don't like someone announcing that my essay is "off-topic," or
mentions some forbidden topic. So I stay off those owned lists.

It works for me.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 25 10:11:09 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:11:09 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <347AF2E5.CD900646@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <v03007815b0a0bd483d3b@[204.254.22.197]>



I am very amused to see the Naderites on the warpath again. Better yet is
their claim that the Microsoft DoJ action is divorced from politics. This
is an excerpt from a message I posted to another list. Might be interesting.

-Declan

---

>     "Fundamentally, I think it's a legal issue," says
>Ed Black, president of the Computer and Communications
>Industry Association. "But to say whenever the
>wealthiest man in America and one of the most powerful
>companies in America is challenged by a cabinet
>official, you can't say there's no political impact.
>You're in a political world at that level."

And if we look at the history of antitrust we see that the political world
is often the most important one:

-- Nixon intervened in an antitrust action against ITT in 1971 in exchange
for a bribe: a hefty contribution to the 1972 Republican convention. "I
don't know whether ITT is bad, good or indifferent," he said on April 19,
1971, the White House tapes reveal. "But there is not going to be any more
antitrust actions as long as I am in this chair...goddam it, we're going to
stop it."

-- Bush's assistant attorney general derailed a criminal investigation of
Georgia Power. This after the U.S. attorney in Atlanta had issued more than
five hundred subpoenas and two hundred witnesses were called to testify
before the grand jury. Why? Months earlier, the company's CEO raised
millions of dollars for the Republicans in 1988.

-- AT&T and its manufacturing subsidary were engaged in a
billion-dollar-a-year price fixing scheme, the Justice Department claimed
in a complaint filed in January 1949. AT&T persuaded a slew of high Defense
Department officials to oppose the action on national security grounds. The
Defense Secretary himself opposed it because of the "Korean emergency."
They forced the DoJ to settle the case without getting what it wanted: AT&T
to sell Western Electric.

-- Teddy Roosevelt (who Jamie might recall was widely reported to be a
"trust buster") headed off a DoJ antitrust investigation of the electrical
industry. Roosevelt wrote: "I feel very strongly that the less activity
there is during the presidential election, unless it is necessary, the
better it will be."

Former NY Times and Newseek reporter David Burnham writes in his book about
the Justice Department: "The record is clear. Political campaign
contributions, personal bribes and other direct and indirect favors have
frequently influenced important Justice Department disions about the
enforcement of law... Virtually every administration has demanded that the
Justice Department bend the law..."

-Declan







From gnu at toad.com  Wed Nov 26 02:16:35 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:16:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: AAAS amicus brief in Bernstein case is on the Web; Citadel files too.
Message-ID: <199711260958.BAA05860@toad.com>


The American Association for the Advancement of Science filed a rather
good 62-page "brief" arguing that:

    I. The Regulations Violate the First Amendment

    II. The Regulations Violate Equal Protection Applied
    to the Federal Government Through the Fifth Amendment

    III. The Regulations Violate the Privileges and Immunities
    Clause as Applied to the Federal Government under the Fifth
    Amendment by Infringing the Right to Make Use of the Most
    Effective Commercially Available Means of Communication

    IV. The Regulations Violate the Constitutional Right of Privacy.

Their arguments are novel, interesting, and generally well presented.
See http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/971110_aaas.amicus

In addition, the Citadel for Constitutional Government has filed a sixth
amicus brief with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.  We are still pursuing
an online copy of that brief.

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation





From love at cptech.org  Tue Nov 25 10:23:34 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:23:34 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <v03007815b0a0bd483d3b@[204.254.22.197]>
Message-ID: <347B12DB.104B62CF@cptech.org>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I am very amused to see the Naderites on the warpath again. Better yet is
> their claim that the Microsoft DoJ action is divorced from politics. 
   Declan, what exactly is that "claim" that you refer to?  Are you
referring to my note on AM-INFO that DOJ filed against Microsoft without
consulting the White House?  (Something that has been reported in the
press..  WSJ?).  Or is there something else you are referring to.  I
don't think I would say any antitrust action is "divorced" from
politics, including this one.  

  Jamie



This
> is an excerpt from a message I posted to another list. Might be interesting.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> ---
> 
> >     "Fundamentally, I think it's a legal issue," says
> >Ed Black, president of the Computer and Communications
> >Industry Association. "But to say whenever the
> >wealthiest man in America and one of the most powerful
> >companies in America is challenged by a cabinet
> >official, you can't say there's no political impact.
> >You're in a political world at that level."
> 
> And if we look at the history of antitrust we see that the political world
> is often the most important one:
> 
> -- Nixon intervened in an antitrust action against ITT in 1971 in exchange
> for a bribe: a hefty contribution to the 1972 Republican convention. "I
> don't know whether ITT is bad, good or indifferent," he said on April 19,
> 1971, the White House tapes reveal. "But there is not going to be any more
> antitrust actions as long as I am in this chair...goddam it, we're going to
> stop it."
> 
> -- Bush's assistant attorney general derailed a criminal investigation of
> Georgia Power. This after the U.S. attorney in Atlanta had issued more than
> five hundred subpoenas and two hundred witnesses were called to testify
> before the grand jury. Why? Months earlier, the company's CEO raised
> millions of dollars for the Republicans in 1988.
> 
> -- AT&T and its manufacturing subsidary were engaged in a
> billion-dollar-a-year price fixing scheme, the Justice Department claimed
> in a complaint filed in January 1949. AT&T persuaded a slew of high Defense
> Department officials to oppose the action on national security grounds. The
> Defense Secretary himself opposed it because of the "Korean emergency."
> They forced the DoJ to settle the case without getting what it wanted: AT&T
> to sell Western Electric.
> 
> -- Teddy Roosevelt (who Jamie might recall was widely reported to be a
> "trust buster") headed off a DoJ antitrust investigation of the electrical
> industry. Roosevelt wrote: "I feel very strongly that the less activity
> there is during the presidential election, unless it is necessary, the
> better it will be."
> 
> Former NY Times and Newseek reporter David Burnham writes in his book about
> the Justice Department: "The record is clear. Political campaign
> contributions, personal bribes and other direct and indirect favors have
> frequently influenced important Justice Department disions about the
> enforcement of law... Virtually every administration has demanded that the
> Justice Department bend the law..."
> 
> -Declan

-- 
James Packard Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 
voice 202.387.8030  | fax 202.234.5176 
love at cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org






From jari.aalto at ntc.nokia.com  Tue Nov 25 10:23:52 1997
From: jari.aalto at ntc.nokia.com (Jari Aalto)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:23:52 +0800
Subject: send help
Message-ID: <199711251801.UAA22665@pegasus.tele.nokia.fi>



help mailing-lists






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 25 10:37:47 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:37:47 +0800
Subject: New free speech oriented civil rights site
Message-ID: <199711251805.TAA11764@basement.replay.com>



> Civil rights Web site to fight cyberhate
> 
> November 24, 1997
> Web posted at: 6:01 p.m. EST (2301 GMT) 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) -- Responding to President Clinton's call to fight hate
> crime, the nation's largest civil rights coalition and a regional Bell
> telephone company have created a Web site designed to combat Internet
> hate speech.
> 
> The Leadership Conference on Civil Rights said Monday the site --
> www.civilrights.org -- was developed and will be maintained for two
> years with a $100,000 contribution from Bell Atlantic.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Wade Henderson, LCCR executive director, said the idea to create a Web
> site was triggered by a proliferation of Internet hate speech by groups
> such as the Ku Klux Klan and White Aryan Resistance.

...and some cypherpunks?

> Bell Atlantic chairman Ray Smith cited a study by the Anti-Defamation
> League showing the number of hate sites on the Internet has doubled to
> 250 in the past year. He called the new site "an antidote for poison."
> 
> The idea is to "counter the frightening espousal of hatred and violence
> against Americans because of their race, gender, religious or sexual
> orientation," he said.

Not to mention nationality.  "You go, chop chop," says Tim May, making fun
of someone apparently from Japan.

> Henderson said hate groups have become more sophisticated in communicating
> their doctrines and recruiting. "Instead of the street, they recruit on
> the net," he explained.
> 
> There is also concern for the First Amendment protection of free speech,
> Henderson said. "This Web site will respond to hate with information
> and competing ideas without seeking to restrict Internet speech."
> 
> In addition to providing information on hate crimes around the country,
> the site will explain various strategies to address those crimes and offer
> materials for young people, parents and teachers to encourage diversity.

Cypherpunks other than May, Geiger, and the despicable Vulis will
welcome a new civil rights effort which is built around respect for
freedom of speech.

Cypherpunk technologies will be a major force to eliminate racism.
With privacy protected transactions, the color of a person's skin, his
religion and his ethnicity are no longer apparent.  People will be able
to succeed on merit - and not the "good old boys" definition of merit,
where somehow only white males seem to have what it takes.

Cypherpunks need to build bridges to minority communities, to show them
how these technologies can advance their cause.  Racist comments by
supposedly respected list members are harmful and must be countered in
order to show that these views do not reflect the feelings of most
cypherpunks.






From minow at apple.com  Tue Nov 25 10:41:06 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:41:06 +0800
Subject: Swedish policy paper on key/message escrow
Message-ID: <v03010d04b0a0c586c472@[17.202.40.158]>



Today's "Svenska Dagbladet" has an article on a policy paper released
by the Swedish Foreign Office that follows the American agenda. "Only
simple encryption that is easy to decypher should be sold outside the
country without restriction." Also, "it is required that capability
is created for legal access to clear-text or keys." (My ugly, but
precise, translation from the article's quote from the report.)

The report authors suggest a complicated structure with key depositories,
"preferably privately owned" that "can be granted control over all
of the encryption keys that are used on the Internet." Police and
proscecutors can obtain these encryption keys as needed to access
secret documents.

The report has been widely criticized.

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com








From mail at inbox.co.uk  Tue Nov 25 12:04:47 1997
From: mail at inbox.co.uk (Edward Russell)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 04:04:47 +0800
Subject: IBM, Compaq, Toshiba WANTED (pwn)
Message-ID: <01BCF999.D64FD580@edward>



To: cypherpunks at toad.com

Hi

I got your email address from your web site

I will buy laptops in any condition, new and boxed, second hand, faulty, damaged
smashed screens, etc.

I am based in California but I have facilities to collect equipment anywhere in
the USA, payment will be by cashiers check.

Quantities are immaterial, but my normal deals are for one to one hundred units.

I am only interested in 486 and Pentium laptop computers.

To give you an idea of the specific models I am interested in I have listed below
units which I currently have back orders for, list as follows.....

Toshiba Tecra, all models
Toshiba Satellite Pro, all models
Toshiba Satellite, all models
IBM Thinkpad 760, all models
Compaq LTE 5000 series, LTE5400, LTE5380, LTE5300 in particular
Compaq Armada 7700 series, Armada 7730 and 7750 in particular

Please respond by email if you have something to offer me. It is much easier
for me if you can include your phone number / contact details.

Regards

Edward Russell

P.S. This email is a one off, you will not be emailed again if you do not carry out
further email corespondents with myself. 






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov 25 12:06:43 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 04:06:43 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <EPtLawOnbaoGUl8PvUSglw==@bureau42.ml.org>



May Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya's forgeries 
get stuck up his ass so he'll have to 
shit through his filthy mouth for the 
rest of its miserable life.


 /~~~\
{-O^O-} Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya
 \ o /
  (-)






From emc at wire.insync.net  Tue Nov 25 12:09:59 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 04:09:59 +0800
Subject: IBM, Compaq, Toshiba WANTED (pwn)
In-Reply-To: <01BCF999.D64FD580@edward>
Message-ID: <199711251954.NAA08063@wire.insync.net>



A Spammer Writes:

> To give you an idea of the specific models I am interested in I have
> listed below units which I currently have back orders for, list as
> follows..... 

Do you also steal cars to order?

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 25 12:46:29 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 04:46:29 +0800
Subject: Prevention of War
Message-ID: <199711252034.VAA01169@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 1:43 PM -0700 11/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>...
>>Any particular methodology you might care to share on stopping WWII?
>>Being an avid amateur historian concerning WWII I am very much
>>interested in any insight you might have.

It looks like some context was lost.  My comments on preventing war
were part of an ongoing discussion on the effect cypherpunkly tools
may have on wars.  So, the particular "methodology" I had in mind was
that the development of extensive cross border relationships would
make wars harder to prosecute.

Imagine that in 1938 Germany that half the relationships people had
happened to cross borders.  This would mean that it would have been
far easier for many people to simply flee Germany because they would
have more couches to sleep on abroad, more people who would maybe lend
money to make it possible, and more world wide sympathy for refugees.

Also, imagine that assets were easily moved around the world and that
the German government would have been unable to control this.  This
would have made it easier for refugees to simply move what assets they
had out of the country.  But, they would probably only commit a
portion of their assets to German control, anyway, which would mean no
movement would even be necessary.

The net result of Nazi policies would have been large numbers of
people fleeing and depriving Germany of their talents and
relationships.

I do not just mean Jewish people.  Alex Le Heux mentioned that he felt
sorry for the conscripts in the Germany army who were forced to invade
other countries.  The reason people are conscripted is because they
would not otherwise volunteer.  If it was a relatively simple matter
to avoid military service, how many would fail to do so?  (And
remember that when half your friends do not have your nationality,
appeals to patriotism are less powerful.)

It is not clear that people in Germany who held substantial wealth
were all that sympathetic to Hitler.  Unfortunately, Hitler seemed to
provide a way for them to protect their wealth from other worse
people.  Later, they had to cooperate with the German government in
order to keep their wealth.  (See, for instance, the extensive
negotiations during the War to ensure that the oldest son of the Krupp
family would, in fact, inherit the firm.)

However, if the wealthy had their assets distributed through a number
of countries, this problem would have been mitigated.

The result of the policies of the German government would have been
simply to alienate and expatriate the most useful elements of German
society and deprive it of the ability to credibly wage war.

However, leaving cypherpunk issues aside, it is possible that the
necessity of World War II has been exaggerated.

Tim May wrote:
>Not entering the war. There's ample evidence that the U.S. provoked
>the Japanese in various ways.

The Japanese in 1941 were somewhat dependent on oil from the
Phillipines.  The last straw was when the U.S. embargoed this oil.
That may have been good policy, but it provoked the War.

Another little item which is usually given a strange spin is that
Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around.
Perhaps that was good policy, but it is important to remember who
attacked whom.

There is a lot to be said for delaying the start of a war because
unexpected developments may later make a peace possible.

>Had the U.S. concentrated on its own affairs, on just trade, it is
>unlikely that what the Japanese were doing in Malaysia, Manchuria,
>Korea, Indochina, and the Phillipines would have had any major
>interest for us.
>
>As for Europe, this was even less our war than the Pacific war.
>
>In a sense, so _what_ if some army from some nation was rolling over
>other armies?
>
>(The "evilness" of Hitler is not the issue, either. Else Stalin and
>Mao would have been cause enough to go to war.)

It's worth noting that Hitler's most evil activities didn't occur
until the war really got going in a big way.  This made it much harder
for people to question or even know the policies their government was
carrying out.  ("What are you, a traitor?")

Also, it is clear that the Allied governments had not entered the War
for altruistic reasons.  Few Jewish refugees were accepted during the
1930s even though they were clearly being mistreated and had every
reason to flee Germany.  Allied knowledge of the Holocaust was
*suppressed* expressly to avoid popular support for admitting
refugees!

After the War the U.S. even smuggled large numbers of Nazis, including
many war criminals, out of Germany and into South America.

Any American who wanted to do the right thing for the human race
during World War II would have been wise to stay out of the Army and
spend time and effort just finding out what was going on.  A
relatively small number of people dedicated to exposing the Holocaust
would have done more good for the world than many thousands of
soldiers.  Ironically, these people would probably have had to outwit
both the American and German governments in finding the facts and
publicizing them.

>And certainly the monarchic alliances which led to the First World
>War--a war fought over the Hapsburg Dynasty and assorted
>intrigues==were completely absurd.

The links between the two World Wars are strong.  Had World War I been
avoided - and it could have been - many of the issues I have discussed
regarding World War II would not even have occurred.

> As for the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem...not my war.

This was not a pretext for the war because it hadn't occurred yet!
The War itself made the Holocaust feasible.

Countries rarely invade other countries for altruistic reasons, but
they have be dressed up this way for popular consumption.

>If the U.S. had not become "policeman to the world" in the early part
>of this century...

And let us note that this was not an elected position.  The other
countries (and people!) in the world did not get together and ask the
U.S. government to play this role.  Probably it's most accurate to
describe this as a propaganda technique to get American popular
support for policies designed to promote American hegemony.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 25 13:24:35 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:24:35 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
Message-ID: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed
the particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is
there a way to do this?  (It seems impossible, but so does mental
poker.)

A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line separately,
but that's obviously inelegant.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 25 14:27:36 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 06:27:36 +0800
Subject: Wired: Faceless Freedom on the Net
Message-ID: <199711252217.XAA14055@basement.replay.com>



http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/8762.html

     Faceless Freedom on the Net
     by Theta Pavis 

     7:30am  25.Nov.97.PST
     NEWPORT BEACH, California - When a whole weekend is dedicated
     to exploring the principles of electronic anonymity, some big concepts
     about basic human freedoms get thrown around. And though he has
     spent a lot of time in the past couple of years providing tools that
     allow people to maintain their privacy while communicating in the
     wide-open spaces of online communications, Lance Cottrell has seen
     the more mundane realities of the anonymity issue. 

     A couple years back, Cottrell began distributing his Mixmaster
     anonymous remailer. The ability to tell the truth without announcing
     to the world, or reprisal-minded enemies, just who is speaking might
     be a cornerstone of digital freedom. But it also opens the door to those
     for whom anonymity is just a novel tool for pulling a nasty prank. 

     Cottrell, who created Mixmaster while working on his physics
     doctorate at the University of California, San Diego, said the pure
     novelty of anonymous tools made them attractive at first. 

     "People used them in abusive ways for the same reason people climb
     Mount Everest - because it's there," Cottrell said during a
     weekend-long conference here on the technical and philosophical
     underpinnings of electronic anonymity. The session, titled
     "Anonymous and Pseudonymous Communication on the Internet," was
     sponsored by the American Association for the Advancement of
     Science. 

     Cottrell, who describes himself as a "hard-line extremist in favor of
     anonymity," said the only real way to measure the problem is by
     looking at how many complaints there are about the use of software
     that protects a user's identity. 

     The pattern Cottrell has seen suggests that as use of anonymous
     remailers and the like increases, complaints about faceless harassment
     and other abuses have declined. His simple thesis for the dip:
     Anonymity tools are quickly becoming familiar, and users are
     becoming more responsible in their use. 

     Cottrell, who is also president of Infonex Internet Inc., owner of the
     popular Anonymizer email and Net access service, said that, given the
     deeper personal-freedom issues inherent in the anonymity issue, it's
     crucial that such services become profitable. 

     "There's only 15 or 20 of them [anonymous remailers] in the world, and
     they're all run by volunteers. Those volunteers are under a lot of
     pressure and are taking significant risks," he said. 

     Dealing with law enforcement requests for information comes with the
     territory, for instance. When confronted with such demands, Cottrell
     said, "We comply completely and give them everything we have -
     which is nothing. The FBI, so far, is content [to be given] log files with
     nothing useful in it." 

     Overseas, police have tried to get information a "handful" of times, he
     said. Austrian and German agents have come to Infonex to find out who
     is hosting a Web site that includes Nazi propaganda - a site run by
     Austrians but illegal in their home country. 

     But, Cottrell said, just as the people behind that site trust the company
     with their anonymity, so too can human rights organizations, which
     will increasingly be using anonymous remailers in the future. 

     "Groups of people will be putting their lives in our hands, very
     literally," Cottrell said. 






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Nov 25 14:37:32 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 06:37:32 +0800
Subject: "Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally."
In-Reply-To: <65f2mj$t22@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19971125222000.9242.qmail@nym.alias.net>



eridani at netcom.com (Belinda Bryan) wrote:

> Sorry, Steve.  I can't let this one go.

Uh, huh...

[...]
 
> I am speaking on behalf of myself and Gary L. Burnore.  

Cat got his tongue?

> When something
> is repeated often enough, some people will believe it to be true.

You mean something "repeated often enough" like this claim in your own
header?:

> Organization: Boycott E-Scrub Technologies.
>  The owner is an admitted spambaiter.

You've repeated that smear against Ron Guilmette over and over.  Doesn't your
petty little vendetta against him get tiresome after awhile?  OTOH, you 
really flipped out and royally potty-mouthed a poster a few months back for 
nothing more than a URL in his/her .sig advocating a boycott of Gary Burnore's 
former employer, Wells Fargo Bank, by the AIDS Action League.  Flaming someone
for a URL in a .sig with which you disagree is rather petty and censorious, 
don't you think?

> All we ask is that you not share our physical addresses and our
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> non-published telephone numbers with anyone but your attorney.  As you
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> may realize, there are a lot of kooks out there and I have a small child
> to protect.  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  
> Unlike other people (namely the one posting this crap anonymously), we
> have nothing to hide.                                               ^^
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Really?  Then why are you hiding your own post from being archived by a neutral
third party?  Trying to maintain "plausible deniability" if you post something
you later regret saying and want to claim it was "forged"?

> X-No-Archive: yes 

Maybe you ought to get it through your head that some of us use "non-published
e-mail addresses" for the same reason you wish to hide your own physical
address and telephone number.  You're right.  "There are a lot of kooks out 
there", and bad things have a tendency to happen to people who dare to
challenge the opinions of your buddy Gary "Sadaam" Burnore.  Of course, it
could be just another coincidence...

Or maybe it's those "databasix goons" that "Rev. Tweek" referred to in his 
post.

At any rate, you lost any credibility as being a friend of the right to
privacy when you pulled your Helena Kobrin act this summer.  Posing as a
"lawyer" for DataBasix, you demanded that Jeff Burchell turn over all of his
user logs to you and Gary, just as the so-called "Church" of $cientology
did with the anon.penet.fi remailer in Finland last year.  The end
result was the same in both cases, too.  Both remailers shut down to avoid
the continued harassment from people like you, Gary, and Helena.  I hope
you're proud of yourselves.

> Belinda Bryan
> eridani at netcom.com

--






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 25 15:08:21 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:08:21 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711252300.AAA19264@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 6:20 PM -0700 11/24/97, Anonymous [Monty Cantsin] wrote:
>>Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>>>Once again, if 1812 the [British] invasion [of the United States]
>>>actually occured,...
>>
>>They burned the White House to the ground.  Does that count?  ;-)
>
>Wait...they burned the White House to the ground?
>
>Maybe we need to rethink this...maybe the British were ur-Cypherpunks.

Hmmmm.... Isaac Newton, Tom Paine, and Alan Turing were all British.
Looks like a pattern!

(And the Great ur-Cypherpunk, Thomas Jefferson, was born British.  ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 25 15:14:13 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:14:13 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711252306.SAA24052@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711252109.WAA05443 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/25/97 
   at 10:09 PM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed the
>particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is there
>a way to do this?  (It seems impossible, but so does mental poker.)

>A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line separately, but
>that's obviously inelegant.

Well this could be done by creating a document signature and then a
collection of sub signatures but it can get ugly real quick.

What level of granularity does one use for the sub signature?

Paragraph: Contentious block of text separated by a line of white space.
Line:      Block of text ending with a CRLF.
Word:      Block of text separated by a white space.

Then what does the sub signature really tell you? Yes you can verify that
the quote was written by someone but it may be taken completely out of
context. How about when several blocks of text from different messages are
combined. Each individual block checks out but by combining them the text
has a completely different meaning than the original document.

The best thing right now is for a user to lookup the referring document in
the archives and verify the signature. It also give him the advantage of
reading the quote in its full context.

In an environment where a public archive of messages are not available
then other means of obtaining the source document are available (contact
the original author, contact the person quoting the original document). In
some environments it may be beneficial to attach the original document to
the message when sending.

Considering that a signed quote would require the Author to format his
signatures in this way I for one would not do so nor could I see a reason
for doing so.

Side Note: The above is in reference to small documents and E-Mail. In
large documents it may be desirable to sign every page or sign each
chapter in addition to signing the entire document. A case may be made for
subsignatures in a E-Mail message in which there are separate signatures
for the text of a message and accompanying attachments. In both cases
there should be a meta-signature that covers the entire document.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Tue Nov 25 15:25:27 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:25:27 +0800
Subject: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <v03102822b094c86ba119@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Nov25.181712est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



I don't censor myself when I say that some things - especially violence -
are evil, and perhaps even criminal, and don't support the use of
technology to promote them.  I happen to believe this.  Saying that
self-censorship is dishonorable presupposes a belief, even a hypocritical
one, in honor.  When one advocates anarchy, it is hard to compose a
meaningful insult.  When there are no rules, you cannot violate one.

There also has been no attempt to prove that being "governed" by a bunch
of unregulated militias would be better than what we have now.  If anyone
wants to encourage the destruction of our society and culture, they can do
so, but it will result in a new dark age whether it is desired or not -
people aren't going to be designing computers when all the power plants
and telecommunications are cut, and no raw materials can move.  All this
crypto techonology requires an infrastructure - it doesn't work with slide
rules and carrier pidgeons.

There are some very thoughtful people who are defending liberty, and there
are some crazed people who I would fear in proportion to their firepower
since they seem to lack self-control or even intelligence (McVeigh managed
to miss those who I would assume to be his targets - the ATF and FBI
agents).  I don't think it is wise to associate with people who like
violence for the sake of violence with things like ideals being just an
excuse to commit heinous crimes.  I say that I am not part of any such
group, although many would like to lump anyone advocating the reduction of
government power with the rabid-right.

I recognize that the FBI, etc. are becoming like the KGB - something which
I consider to be an evil.  The last thing I want to do is imitiate them by
wishing for the death and injury of innocents in furtherance of my causes
- that is the method of our current government.  While I suggest that
crimes are still crimes when committed by government, others seem to take
government criminality as an excuse to advocate serious crimes on their
part (or encourage other anonymous people to do).

If the response to Waco and Ruby Ridge is to descend to the level of those
in the government who committed the crimes, then there is no moral
difference between any such person and Horiuchi.  They simply aim at a
different set of targets.  Maybe the Cypherpunk-militia can kill more
innocent people than the FBI and ATF.  But would that be a victory?  Is it
a gain to liberty to randomly kill people? 

I will tell anyone who says "I want to hurt and kill innocent people" that
they are wrong.  If I am fighting for anything, it is for human rights.
And I will challenge anyone who advocates the abridgement of those rights,
even if they happen to agree with my views that cryptography enables the
exercise of those rights.

I believe in the extensive use of crypto because I believe in human
rights, not because it can be used to abridge those rights.  Those who use
crypto to help commit acts of terrorism and those who use it to enslave
citizens are on the same side.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov 25 15:51:54 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:51:54 +0800
Subject: SigFiles
In-Reply-To: <4269.880400708@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971125152951.0070f8e0@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 05:01 PM 11/24/1997 -0600, TruthMonger <tm at dev.null> wrote:
>>     -- Ann Landers, columnist and a director of Handgun Control Inc
>
>Isn't "Handgun Contol, Inc." the place where they align your gun-sights
>for free?

Yes, but you won't like the way they're aligned when they're done....
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 25 16:02:09 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:02:09 +0800
Subject: Whining
Message-ID: <199711252346.AAA27175@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> writes:
>There is no such thing as an off topic post on the new cypherpunks
>list, at least according to Tim May and Monty Cantsin.  Whatever
>interests them is automatically on-topic.

My heart bleeds for you.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm


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From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 25 16:02:19 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:02:19 +0800
Subject: quotes2.htm#During-the-War:
In-Reply-To: <199711250528.XAA16560@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0400270db0a109f514d3@[139.167.130.248]>



At 12:28 am -0500 on 11/25/97, Jim Choate wrote:


>    "These are the times that try men�s souls�"
>
>    This quote was written by Thomas Paine after the writing of the
>    Declaration of Independence in a forty-seven page pamphlet called
>    Common Sense. His purpose for saying this was to try to persuade the
>    Americans to demand independence, rather then try to patch up their
>    differences with Great Britain. The effect it had was it made George
>    Washington start to prepare his army.
>      _________________________________________________________________

Woops.  Saw this one last night. This one's actually written after "Common
Sense". It's from "On the Present(or American?) Crisis" or something, which
was actually written in camp, just before Washington crossed the Deleware
and started his first counteroffensive. See? The People's Television
Network's good for something. Clocks right twice a day, and all that...



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 25 16:02:39 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:02:39 +0800
Subject: Book review from amazon.com: Internet Cryptography
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971125154831.24457D-100000@well.com>



Internet Cryptography

                                         by Richard E. Smith

                                         Paperback, 356 pages


                           List: $27.92 ~ Our Price: $27.92

                           Availability: This title usually ships within
24 hours.

                                                    
                           (You can always remove it later...)

                           Internet Books Editor's Recommended Book,
                           11/01/97:
                           For all the talk about the Internet's very real
security weaknesses,
                           information safety is not all that difficult to
achieve. Yes, most
                           Internet technology does a better job of making
information
                           accessible than it does of protecting privacy.
Still, modern
                           cryptographic products and techniques have made
more than
                           adequate security available to just about
anyone who needs it. In
                           Internet Cryptography, network security
consultant Richard
                           Smith explains the basics of online security.
He avoids getting
                           technical with too much cryptographic theory or
the mathematics
                           behind the magic. Instead he focuses on
providing just enough
                           information to enable information systems
managers and
                           administrators to make wise decisions. In fact,
Smith pays close
                           attention to matters of system configuration
and operation,
                           showing how even the best encryption methods
can be ruined by
                           careless operation. From there, Smith explains
how today's
                           techniques can protect information from being
forged, altered, or
                           stolen. Smith devotes most of his discussion of
various
                           cryptographic options to products that are
presently on the
                           market. Therefore, the techniques he describes
are generally
                           within the reach of most businesses and
organizations. He
                           progresses from the simplest to most complex
approach,
                           examining the strengths and weaknesses of each.
As a result,
                           readers wind up with a solid understanding of
cryptographic
                           security as well as a good feel for the level
of security they
                           require. 

                           Book Description :
                           "This book provides an excellent overview of
how encryption is
                           used, its strengths and weaknesses, and what to
look for when
                           building or choosing real-world solutions. This
is a must-have
                           book for anyone considering the deployment of
an important
                           system relying on modern cryptography." -
Marcus J. Ranum,
                           Chief Scientist, V-ONE Corporation.

                           Here, in one comprehensive, soup-to-nuts book,
is the solution
                           for Internet security: modern-day cryptography.
Written by a
                           security expert with a wealth of practical
experience, this book
                           covers network and Internet security in terms
that are easy to
                           understand, using proven technology, systems,
and solutions.
                           From the client workstation to the Web host to
the e-mail server,
                           every aspect of this important topic is
examined and explained.
                           The once-daunting subject of cryptography is
demystified and
                           applied to today's security challenges. Topics
include: essentials
                           of cryptography; networking and Internet
fundamentals;
                           encryption building blocks; virtual private
networks; legal
                           considerations; setting realistic security
objectives; secured
                           electronic mail; World Wide Web transaction
security; and
                           Internet Firewalls.

                           This book is written for people who want to
move data safely
                           across the Internet and protect corporate
resources from
                           unauthorized access. Using real-life case
studies, examples, and
                           commercially available software products,
cryptography is
                           presented as a practical solution to specific,
everyday security
                           challenges. 







From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 25 16:05:35 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:05:35 +0800
Subject: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <v03020926afd30f8f70cc@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v04002701b0a0c031cf0a@[139.167.130.248]>



Frankly, Tim, I expected a whole lot more intelligence, and less vehemence
(well, maybe I didn't expect less vehemence :-)) in all this, and the
following is a perfect case in point.


At 1:11 pm -0500 on 11/19/97, Tim May cites the exception which proves the
rule in a feeble attempt at historical revisionism:

> At 11:38 AM -0700 6/22/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
> >The reason I ask is, given events of the past few days, it may be time to
> >start standing up for our friends, no matter how unsavory their ideas.
> ...
> >Tim was talking earlier here about how this kind of accountability should
> >have been held, more stringently, for the people who burned children in
> >Waco, and who shot them at Ruby Ridge. Maybe it's time to hold people who
> >commit capital crimes on the state's behalf to understand that the legal
> >sword cuts both ways. If so, I think the best way to start this is to do it
> >in manageable increments, and ratchet up the pressure from there. To have
> >zero tolerence for even the smallest offenses, starting with the jailing of
> >Mr. Bell.


Wow, Tim. You're trying to cite this as some kind of *counter*example? It's
like you didn't even *read* the above in your following comments. You did,
didn't you? Are you deliberately making this *easy* or something?


Oh, well, here's my answer, anyway. :-).

Which is: Fine. All of the above makes sense to me. Still.

The people who committed murder at Waco and Ruby Ridge *have* committed a
capital crime. It just hasn't been proven in a court of law. Yet.

I'm saying, above, and again here, that if they break the law (notice what
I said up there about the *legal* sword cutting both ways) it's time to put
them in jail. That's still completely doable, even in the cases of the
people from Waco and Ruby Ridge who have gotten off so far. It'll just take
longer because our nation-state is in the hands of freedom-hating liberals
instead of, say, libertarians or somebody like them. People still win these
kinds of legal fights decades later, because they're right, and because, in
the end, the truth usually wins. Reality is not optional. All it takes is
determination. And maybe some money.

I'm also saying, above, that it's time to start fighting back, (legally, if
you notice :-)) when the government comes to harrass and jail people just
because they're talking about using cryptography, and, it seemed to me that
Bell's case was as good a time as any to start doing it. In other words,
"Bell's in jail. Fine. People should do what they can to get Bell out of
jail. Even if we don't like Bell."

Frankly, what we've done, myself included, hasn't been good enough, if
anyone around here crying 'apostasy' has probably noticed. Bell has sat in
jail, without bail (or anyone to bail him out, for that matter) the entire
time, and, bless his loony heart, he's probably "ratted out" half the
internet by now, and whether they believe him or not remains to be seen.
That sucks. It shouldn't have happend. To the extent that anyone doesn't
help, or at least doesn't get the truth out, they're just as responsible
for Bell sitting in jail as anyone else is. Yeah, I know. Collectivist
nonsense. Sue me. :-).


More to the point, it's still stupid, as Tim insists on doing, to try to
provoke a violent confrontation, or by threatening federal judges, or, if
no one pays attention to him then, whatever else he can think up. Frankly,
that's the kind of stuff that put Bell himself in jail. I suppose learning
would have occured out there in Corrolitos, but, apparently, it hasn't.
Heck, it's also becoming apparent, from Tim's archival scholarship, that
*reading* doesn't occur in Corrolitos, either. Spend some more time on the
john, or something, Tim.

Anyway, there are lots of better ways to fill the jails, and it seems to me
that most cypherpunks I've met aren't the "fill the jails" type, anyway.


> To paraphrase Hettinga himself, "I'm _telling!"

In a word, from Hettinga himself, "Bullshit." Here's Tim again, saying that
I'm in cahoots with Billarybub hirself.

No, Tim. I'm not a tory, or a snitch, or whatever. Nor, as you paranoiacly
insinuate later on, have I gotten The Letter, The Briefing, or The
Fucking-Anything-Else, either. You have seen here on cypherpunks all I have
said to anybody on the entire issue. Frankly, it's the only place where it
matters to say it, because *here's* where you're making such a doomsaying,
sabrerattling fool of yourself.

> It appears hear that Bob is not only posting "off subject, non-coding"
> stuff,  but that he appears to be calling for taking action against the
> officials and judges in the Bell case.

Right, Tim. Officials. Not Judges. And *legal* action, not 'executive'
action, as you and Dalton Trumbo like to put it. If some dolt at the IRS or
any other member of the alphabet soup "taskforce" that hauled Bell away
that morning actually broke the law, then they should be punished. And they
probably didn't break the law, just "aggressively enforced" it, which
probably won't land them in jail. Which, also, sounds vaguely like the
scenario that would probably happen to you yourself, if you keep rattling
their cage like Bell did.

Finally, if I talked about any 'action' at all above it was to get Bell out
of jail, which, Tim, I didn't see *you* doing anything about, either.

> >Yeah, I know. It's me making work for someone else. Nonetheless: Anyone out
> >there want to do this?
>
> "Will no one rid me of that judge?"?

Actually, what happened after that, in no particular order, and if you
remember at all (maybe you should read the archives, too, Tim :-)), is that
John Young started getting court documents the case and publishing them. I
asked here if anyone wanted to go visit Bell in jail, in exchange for free
admission to FC98, and Blanc volunteered to put together a group to go.
Only, by that time, Bell wasn't taking any visitors, was being moved, and,
now, apparently, has refused mail. Blanc, and John, and Greg Broiles, and
I, and others, have been talking about the details of all this offline. I
volunteered last week to go try to raise money to pay for the cost of
documents, etc., and John said that the cost isn't that much, so far. And,
of course, Blanc still gets in free at FC98. :-).

Frankly, it's a shame that it wasn't possible to get Bell some legal
representation, because, clearly, he needed it, as anyone here would
probably agree by now. Doesn't matter if you disagree with Bell, or with
using lawyers for that matter. :-). If Bell had been able to stay out of
the clutches of the jailers (and social workers :-)), he probably wouldn't
be as messed up as he probably is by now, and, "Thanksgiving cypherpunk
massacre" or no, he might now be turning in anyone he can think of to get
out. Being stuck with a bunch of social workers and psychiatrists may do
that to a body...


Being prepared to contribute for lawyers for other people, is, by the way,
what people should now be thinking about, in case some other person, even
another indigent loon like Bell, gets hauled in. Think about it as legal
insurance? Yeah, I know. Collectivist nonsense. It's far better to hole up
on a hillside and pump a few more hundred rounds through your Glock
instead, right? Anything but figuring out how to get code written, anyway
:-).

> Physician, heal thyself.

Take a physic yourself, Tim. Maybe it'll improve your ability to read, if
not your disposition. :-).



One more thing, to everyone else. It sucks that we have to mess around with
lawyers at all. The solution is code, not lawyers. Right?

I mean, maybe it makes more sense to just cut people like Bell off and let
them flap in the breeze.

Triage. Evolution in action.

"They aren't *really* cypherpunks" sounds like an awfully good answer, but,
to follow on to what I said in the original posting, anyone who talks about
cypherpunk ideas here, much less goes out and (apparently) tries to use
them, is probably going to call themselves a cypherpunk, whether the rest
of us on the list claim those people or not. Certainly, when these people
find themselves in jail for one reason or another, especially if the
prosecution goes on a crypto witch hunt, those folks going to "reach out"
and claim us, whether we want them to or not, as Bell's case may still, in
the faintest possibility, turn out to show us. And no, I still don't think
the Alphabet Gang is decending on Corrolitos this Thursday, just because
Tim says so.


So, what I'm talking about here, maybe some kind of cryptography defense
fund, is not offense, it's defense, self-defense, like some people keep a
gun for self-defense. A defense of cryptography itself, if you will. Not
only to prevent cryptographic abolition laws by going to court to overturn
them, but, much more useful, to make sure that whatever cryptographic
component of someone's otherwise criminal activities, (like Bell's
Assassination Politics essay, versus his alleged physical attacks on IRS
and law offices) is not used as a pretext to prevent strong cryptography
from happening, much less to exacerbate that person's legal circumstances.

Let me know, offline, if you're interested in this. Like any of my other
crazy ideas, if enough people are interested, then it might be worth trying
to do, and we can put together something more um, restrained than yet
another broadside in this seemingly endless flamefest.





Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov 25 16:07:32 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:07:32 +0800
Subject: Another blast from the past
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b0995f1609b7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v04002700b0a0c027ccbc@[139.167.130.248]>



At 10:33 pm -0500 on 11/19/97, Tim May wrote:


> Another "blast from the past." Here Bob talks about showing up in Denver
> for the visit by several heads of state, to stage some "street theater."

All perfectly legal, and probably would have been fun, had I the disposable
income or time (both of which seem to be mutual exclusive, in my life :-))
to do it...

> Odd that he suddenly gets so offended when I say a judge has committed a
> capital crime.

Especially when the judge hasn't, and especially after making vieled
intimations about Dark Times To Come, the War Being Almost Upon Us, "Lock
and Load", and all that other cruft.

BTW, I have found that most people who go around saying "Lock and Load" all
the time are posers who've never actually had to in anger, or, if they
have, they're too old to remember how, anyway... :-/.

"Semper Fi", on the other hand... :-)


> Perhaps he's just more scared now than before.

Nope. This Little Bunny Rabbit has teeth. Grrrrrr... :-).

> Or perhaps he's having
> second thoughts about things.

Nope. CryptoAnarchy Rulez, d00d... Doesn't mean I'm going to go bang the
gorilla cage at the local precinct to go make it happen by, um,
Thanksgiving.

> Or maybe he's had his visit.

I seem to have answered this previously. Twice, now.

> The simplest
> solution is the likeliest: OTR.

Now, *that*'s an Ad Hominem. *Congratulations*, Tim. (Did you read my list
of informal fallacies? I found one, you know. I even posted it to the list,
somewhere. Check the archives...)


> But there's no way in hell I'm going to expose myself to imprisonment in a
> German jail to make some metaphorical point about the resurgence of fascism
> in Germany.

Yup, it seems you'd rather do it in the comfort of your own home...

You keep throwing these low slow ones, Tim, I'll keep "blasting" them.

Maybe you should have your arm looked at. Is it bursitis? *How* would you
get *that*? ...oop... Never mind...

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 25 16:08:25 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:08:25 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
Message-ID: <199711260002.BAA28863@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed the
>>particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is there
>>a way to do this?  (It seems impossible, but so does mental poker.)
>
>>A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line
>>separately, but that's obviously inelegant.
>
>Well this could be done by creating a document signature and then a
>collection of sub signatures but it can get ugly real quick.

Ugly's the word for it, alright. ;-)

>What level of granularity does one use for the sub signature?

It would be nifty if there was a way to show that any continuous set
of bits were signed given only one signature on a whole document.
Intuitively, it seems to me that this might be provably inconsistent
with a secure hash.  Still, crypto results are full of surprises, so I
could imagine there is a way to do this.

>Then what does the sub signature really tell you? Yes you can verify
>that the quote was written by someone but it may be taken completely
>out of context.

Good point.  It is nice that people who quote out of context now in a
misleading way are convicted when you demand proof.

Still, my sense is that this would be a pretty useful thing to be able
to do and it would be technically interesting.

For example, you might want to reveal parts of a message signed by
somebody else without revealing the entire message.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Tue Nov 25 16:28:41 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:28:41 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <39a04ee4329a5fe9efe92ce1e2fadd23@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jim Choate wrote:
>			       ARTICLE XVI. 
> 
>	The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on 
>incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the 
>several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. 
>[25 February 1913.] 
> 
>Notice the date of implimentation, considerably before WWII, it is in fact
>the year before the US became involved in WWI. Perhaps you meant WWI instead
>of WWII? Citizens of the US have been paying taxes since 1914.

True, but a lot less citizens were paying income taxes in 1914 than in 1941.
Following are some figures that I extracted from the "Historical Statistics 
of the United States, Colonial Times to 1970", published in 1975 by the US 
Dep't of Commerce's Bureau of the Census:

[Note: in a previous post I had said that the initial income tax was 1% on 
any person earning more than $4,000 per year.  This is incorrect.  It was 1% 
on any person earning more than $20,000 per year, or roughly $400,000 in 
today's money.  Hardly the makings for a public outcry to the new 
"constitutional amendment."  Let's face it: the American public was just as 
complacent toward unconstitutional legislation then as it is now.]

In 1916, this figure was increased to 2%.  The total US gov't income tax 
revenue for that year was $68 million.  By 1940, the first income tax 
bracket had reached 4.4% on any person earning more than $4,000 per year for 
total yearly income tax revenue of $982 million.  The numbers increased 
dramatically during World War II:

Year		%	Income	Total Individual Income Tax Revenue
- ----		--	------	-----------------------------------
1941		10	2,000			$1.4 billion
1942		19	2,000			$3.2 billion
1943		19	2,000			$6.6 billion
1944		23	2,000			$18.2	billion
1945		23	2,000			$19 billion

That's an increase of roughly 2000% in a very short span of time (1940-45).
Who says war is not a lucrative business for gov't?

>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>> I doubt very much that income tax withholding would have been accepted
>> if the War were not used to justify it.  ("You don't want to pay
>> taxes?  What are you, a traitor?")
>
>What war? The taxes came about because of issues other than fighting a war
>which hadn't even happened yet.

Withholding was not implemented until 1943, smack in the middle of WWII.  In 
1943, $686 million of the $6.6 billion was collected by withholding, or just 
over 10%.  By 1945, $10 billion of the $19 billion was collected by 
withholding, more than 50%.  In 1970, $103 billion was collected in 
individual income tax, $77 billion by witholding (75%).

In summary, WWII was a convenient way for the US gov't to tighten the screws 
on its citizens, and it continues to do so to this day.  But I've discussed 
this already in a previous post.  "Check the archives." :-)

Nerthus

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From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Tue Nov 25 16:29:50 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:29:50 +0800
Subject: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <23893ad912d19cd5ca7693b1b4c80cd3@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>Nerthus wrote:
>>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>>However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and
>>>the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is
>>>the elimination of freedom and privacy.
>>>
>>>It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first
>>>become enslaved.
>>
>>Those who wage war are rarely the slaves.  Those who die usually are.
>>The "cannon fodder" you mentioned.
>
>"Okay soldier, let's see that pass!"  Is this the treatment accorded
>to a free man?

Clearly not.  Let me rephrase what I said since it appears it was not as 
obvious as I had thought.

Those who wage war (the politicians/"kings") are rarely the slaves.  Those 
who die (the soldiers/citizens) usually are.

The soldiers and citizens are the pawns and other chessmen on the chessboard 
who are sacrificed to protect the king of their color while attempting to 
checkmate the king of the other color.  All chessmen are expendable, except 
the two kings.  When one of the kings is checkmated, the game is over.

Note: the king can be checkmated without the loss of a single chessman, 
though it is rare.  However, the possibility exists.  Think about it.

Nerthus

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov 25 16:49:21 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:49:21 +0800
Subject: Freemen and Serfs
Message-ID: <199711260038.BAA09899@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

There is a widely held belief that cryptoanarchy is an all or nothing
proposition; that is, the future can be a glorious cryptoanarchy or a
dismal police state.  (I think this is Tim May's analysis, but perhaps
others also contributed.)

It isn't clear to me that these two environments cannot co-exist in a
stable equilibrium.  Historically, in many societies which practiced
slavery, large numbers of people were neither slaves nor slave owners.

Given the naivete of large portions of the population and certain
alarming technologies such as implants which are emerging, it seems
clear that large numbers of people will become little more than cattle
in the near future.  (Incidentally, I do not know that this will be
"Joe Sixpack" and his friends.  Many of those who are "success"
oriented are also most willing to be drug tested, the most reluctant
to question authority, and the least reluctant to be little more than
a cog in the machine.)

In any event, those who perceive their environment and respond
correctly may continue to be free while others will take the other
path.  It's tragic, of course, but perhaps not our problem.  Monty
Cantsin is willing to spend only so much time and effort encouraging
people to protect their privacy.

There's no reason why cypherpunks can't do business with the slavers.
That is, in exchange for various products requiring actual work,
cypherpunks (a.k.a. knowledge workers) can provide technical expertise
and other services.

Once it is clear that enslaving a cypherpunk is expensive, it may be
that the slavers of the world discover they can live with it and that
it may even be a good deal for them.

There might be some turmoil getting to that point, of course.  Many
U.S. citizens have been told they were free, although the ruling elite
tends to see them as chattle.  This difference of opinion will have to
be resolved one way or another.  Hopefully it will be done peacefully.

Perhaps instead of seeing ourselves as "The Sons of Liberty" we should
see ourselves as "The Sons of Tleilax".

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Nov 25 16:53:11 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:53:11 +0800
Subject: mail2news at mit hasn't worked in a week...
In-Reply-To: <19971125213123.13338.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <19971126004002.29162.qmail@nym.alias.net>



lcs Remailer Administrator <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:

> > Is anyone else noticing that the m2n at anon.lcs.mit.edu hasn't
> > worked in the past week?  It used to be extremely fast and
> > reliable... now m2n posts to alt.test just don't make it at
> > all...even when posting directly (with telnet).
>  
> As far as I know things are working well.  If you can read this
> message, then the problem is probably with the way you are trying to
> post (possibly a remailer you are using went bad).  If you can't read
> this message, then your ISP may have started blocking messages through 
> this news server.

Do you have any idea which ISPs may be doing that?  What's their rationale?
This is the first I'd heard of such a practice.  Are they blocking all
posts from all mail2news gateways or just yours?  To all NGs, or just to 
alt.test?

Also, there seems to be one censorious nutcase out there who seems to think
he's on a mission from God to "despam" alt.test!  I don't know who the heck
thinks a *TEST* NG needs his brand of "ethnic" cleansing, but just look at
all the cancel messages in the "control" NG for posts to alt.test.

--






From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Tue Nov 25 16:58:50 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:58:50 +0800
Subject: mccain remailer backlog
Message-ID: <199711260034.AAA02176@notatla.demon.co.uk>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Owing to a huge pile of mail messages on Monday (and perhaps my effort to
process them faster by running smap without smapd) some messages to mccain
have had the following destinations:

    ordinary inbox, bypassing procmail

    procmail to the wrong recipe, (you may have received
    an info message)

For both of the above I still have the mail in a backlog of about
200 messages that will be getting sent RSN.

I am unable to determine whether any mail was lost.  Sorry about the
possibility of this, and the delay some messages are experiencing.

I have increased the POOLSIZE of mccain from 3 to 4, and reduced
the RATE from 100 to 90.

The tea remailer does not seem to have hit the same problem, perhaps
attracting less traffic by lower performance stats.


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--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov 25 17:10:01 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:10:01 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711260002.BAA28863@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711260102.UAA25089@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711260002.BAA28863 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/25/97 
   at 07:02 PM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>It would be nifty if there was a way to show that any continuous set of
>bits were signed given only one signature on a whole document.
>Intuitively, it seems to me that this might be provably inconsistent with
>a secure hash.  Still, crypto results are full of surprises, so I could
>imagine there is a way to do this.

Well you can do it. Wether you want to do it is another matter.

For the level of granularity you are sugesting a hash is not pratical.

You could just use RSA encryption to encrypt the message in the following
manner:

The user encrypts the message with his *private* key. Rather than
encrypting the entire document in one operation he would encrypt each
[insert you level of granularity here] and then concantinate the results.
Say we wanted a level of granularity of a word:

word1 word2 word3 word4

the resulting cypher text would be:

cypher1 cypher2 cypher3 cypher4

Now if someone wished to verifiably quote words 1,3,4 they would include
cypher1 cypher3 cypher4 in their document.

Since cypher 1,3,4 could only be generated by original author it can be
verified that he actually wrote those words.

At a bare minimum this would have to be done on a level of granularity of
a sentance to have any meaning at all and even then it's relavance would
be questioned.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From kent at songbird.com  Tue Nov 25 17:11:26 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:11:26 +0800
Subject: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <v03102822b094c86ba119@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971125170054.55027@songbird.com>



On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 06:15:56PM -0500, nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:
> I don't censor myself when I say that some things - especially violence -
> are evil, and perhaps even criminal, and don't support the use of
> technology to promote them.  I happen to believe this.  Saying that
> self-censorship is dishonorable presupposes a belief, even a hypocritical
> one, in honor.  When one advocates anarchy, it is hard to compose a
> meaningful insult.  When there are no rules, you cannot violate one.

However, the "anarchy" in cryptoanarchy is quite structured.  (I was
quite seriously criticized for using a dictionary definition of
anarchy, you may recall...) If there were *no* rules, then murder is
OK, and ownership means nothing.  Furthermore, cryptoanarchy requires
the sanctity of contracts, which implies a whole bunch. 

The whole notion of "the policeman inside" is stupid sloganeering.  Of
*course* we have a policeman inside -- we have something that tells us
(at least some of us) that murder, theft, and dishonesty are 
behaviors to be avoided.  We have something that tells us (some of us) 
it would be foolish to make a habit of running red lights.

> There also has been no attempt to prove that being "governed" by a bunch
> of unregulated militias would be better than what we have now.  If anyone
> wants to encourage the destruction of our society and culture, they can do
> so, but it will result in a new dark age whether it is desired or not -
> people aren't going to be designing computers when all the power plants
> and telecommunications are cut, and no raw materials can move.  All this
> crypto techonology requires an infrastructure - it doesn't work with slide
> rules and carrier pidgeons.
> 
> There are some very thoughtful people who are defending liberty, and there
> are some crazed people who I would fear in proportion to their firepower
> since they seem to lack self-control or even intelligence (McVeigh managed
> to miss those who I would assume to be his targets - the ATF and FBI
> agents).  I don't think it is wise to associate with people who like
> violence for the sake of violence with things like ideals being just an
> excuse to commit heinous crimes.  I say that I am not part of any such
> group, although many would like to lump anyone advocating the reduction of
> government power with the rabid-right.
> 
> I recognize that the FBI, etc. are becoming like the KGB - something which
> I consider to be an evil.  The last thing I want to do is imitiate them by
> wishing for the death and injury of innocents in furtherance of my causes
> - that is the method of our current government.  While I suggest that
> crimes are still crimes when committed by government, others seem to take
> government criminality as an excuse to advocate serious crimes on their
> part (or encourage other anonymous people to do).
> 
> If the response to Waco and Ruby Ridge is to descend to the level of those
> in the government who committed the crimes, then there is no moral
> difference between any such person and Horiuchi.  They simply aim at a
> different set of targets.  Maybe the Cypherpunk-militia can kill more
> innocent people than the FBI and ATF.  But would that be a victory?  Is it
> a gain to liberty to randomly kill people? 
> 
> I will tell anyone who says "I want to hurt and kill innocent people" that
> they are wrong.  If I am fighting for anything, it is for human rights.
> And I will challenge anyone who advocates the abridgement of those rights,
> even if they happen to agree with my views that cryptography enables the
> exercise of those rights.
> 
> I believe in the extensive use of crypto because I believe in human
> rights, not because it can be used to abridge those rights.  Those who use
> crypto to help commit acts of terrorism and those who use it to enslave
> citizens are on the same side.

Yep.  Actually,  I agree with every single thing you said, 
interestingly enough.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From kent at songbird.com  Tue Nov 25 17:17:30 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:17:30 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711260002.BAA28863@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971125170517.14061@songbird.com>



On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 06:49:17PM -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199711260002.BAA28863 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/25/97 
>    at 07:02 PM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:
> 
> >It would be nifty if there was a way to show that any continuous set of
> >bits were signed given only one signature on a whole document.
> >Intuitively, it seems to me that this might be provably inconsistent with
> >a secure hash.  Still, crypto results are full of surprises, so I could
> >imagine there is a way to do this.
> 
> Well you can do it. Wether you want to do it is another matter.
> 
> For the level of granularity you are sugesting a hash is not pratical.
> 
> You could just use RSA encryption to encrypt the message in the following
> manner:
> 
> The user encrypts the message with his *private* key. Rather than
> encrypting the entire document in one operation he would encrypt each
> [insert you level of granularity here] and then concantinate the results.
> Say we wanted a level of granularity of a word:
> 
> word1 word2 word3 word4
> 
> the resulting cypher text would be:
> 
> cypher1 cypher2 cypher3 cypher4
> 
> Now if someone wished to verifiably quote words 1,3,4 they would include
> cypher1 cypher3 cypher4 in their document.
> 
> Since cypher 1,3,4 could only be generated by original author it can be
> verified that he actually wrote those words.
> 
> At a bare minimum this would have to be done on a level of granularity of
> a sentance to have any meaning at all and even then it's relavance would
> be questioned.

The interesting case is when you do it at the granularity of the bit....

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From anon at anon.efga.org  Tue Nov 25 17:31:35 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:31:35 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
Message-ID: <199711260118.UAA25213@server1.efga.org>



Monty Cantsin writes:

01> It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed
02> the particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is
03> there a way to do this?  (It seems impossible, but so does mental
04> poker.)
05> 
06> A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line separately,
07> but that's obviously inelegant.
08> 
09> Monty Cantsin
10> Editor in Chief
11> Smile Magazine
12> http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
13> http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

An easy way to do this works only if the quoted paragraph comes from
the very end of the text.  You can supply the cumulative hash of all
the material before the quoted part, then the quotation itself, which
goes all the way to the end of the document.  From this the hash of the
whole document can be calculated, and the signature checked.

A more general approach calculates the document hash in a line oriented
way.  Normally we start at the top and work down through the document
to get the hash, which is signed.  Instead, we would calculate a hash
for each line of the document separately, and then combine them using a
tree.

In the example above hashes would be calculated for lines 1-13.  Call these
H1A - H13A.  Then second level hashes could be calculated by taking H1A
through H13A in pairs:

	H1B = hash(H1A,H2A)
	H2B = hash(H3A,H4A)
	H3B = hash(H5A,H6A)
	...
	H6B = hash(H11A,H12A)
	H7B = H13A

We repeat this until we have one hash for the whole document:

	H1C = hash(H1B,H2B)
	H2C = hash(H3B,H4B)
	H3C = hash(H5B,H6B)
	H4C = H7B

	H1D = hash(H1C,H2C)
	H2D = hash(H3C,H4C)

	H1E = hash(H1D,H2D)

We sign the final hash, H1E.

Now you can extract a paragraph, say lines 6 and 7 above.  The hashes
H6A and H7A can be calculated from this.  Supply the other hashes needed
to calculate the final hash: H5A, H8A, H1C, H2D, will be enough.  This
will allow calculating H1E and the signature can be verified.  The
required number of hashes will generally be logarithmic in the size of
the missing part of the document.






From berezina at qed.net  Tue Nov 25 17:43:41 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:43:41 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <v03007815b0a0bd483d3b@[204.254.22.197]>
Message-ID: <19971126012639357.AAB144@antigone>



Declan,

All of your examples are of antitrust actions *stopped* by political pressure. Of course, monopolies tend to have lots of cash, & that buys influence -- but this is just one more reason to bust them: the disproportion in economic power within the industry corrupts the political system.

There are plenty of ways government fucks with commerce & harms competition. I've seen little evidence that monopoly-busting has done anything but promote competition -- on the rare occasions it succeeds. & the less-rare occasions when the threat influences behavior.

Unlike Lizard, I'm genuinely self-interested. I'd hate to see what would become of the computer industry if Microsoft had no fear of the DoJ.

Paul

P.S.
James & the Naderites ought to take a closer look at MS's Win98 strategy. IE4 is genuinely integrated into the OS, & new MS apps (e.g. Outlook 98) will share much of its code. This isn't bad in itself -- they launch quickly & run smoothly -- but it gives third-party developers a choice:

1) Also live off the IE4 code, making it nearly impossible to port your app to another OS.
2) Write independently & fight with the MS code for system resources. It can't be turned off.

It also makes running Navigator, in particular, ridiculous. You open a folder & bam! there's IE4. Netscape is right to focus on the backend.

P.P.S.
Despite all that, I don't support breaking up MS. The industry is too in flux. MS isn't able to assure victory.






From rfarmer at HiWAAY.net  Tue Nov 25 18:00:58 1997
From: rfarmer at HiWAAY.net (Randall Farmer)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:00:58 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971125185947.22431D-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>



> It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed
> the particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is
> there a way to do this? 

Yes. To do it using standard proggies, hash each of your paragraphs and put the
results in a PGP-signed message. Quoter provides signature and signed hashes. 
Reader hashes your quoted paragraph and checks the signed message to see if it
was one of the original paragraphs. So simple I can do it. :) 

[Disclaimer: I think.]

A more cool-sounding solution would be to concatenate those hashes and sign
them (not a hash of them) as one packet. Since RSA sigs are secret-key
decryptions (right?), the reader can re-encrypt it and check any individual
hash. Not more secure, though, and it takes a lot of processor time.

No idea how to do it with bit-level granularity.

> (It seems impossible, but so does mental poker.) 

Mental poker? Easy.

> 
> A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line separately,
> but that's obviously inelegant.

Allows you a tad too much freedom with their quotes, too...

> 
> Monty Cantsin
> Editor in Chief
> Smile Magazine
> http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
> http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer at hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer









From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Nov 25 18:52:37 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:52:37 +0800
Subject: DaBORG
In-Reply-To: <34676B86.7AEC@webspan.net>
Message-ID: <19971126024002.9554.qmail@nym.alias.net>



Panhead <Knucklehead at webspan.net> wrote:
 
> Certainly, there must be more than these?:
>  
> I am James T. Kirk of Borg you will be assimil..... ated.
> I am John-Boy of Borg. G'night, Hugh! G'night, Lore! G'night, Data!
> I am Kira of Borg. Wanna make something out of it??!!!!
> I am Kojak of Borg:  Who loves to assimilate ya, baby.
> I am Ginsu of Borg. You WILL be ASSIMILATED, but wait! That's not all!
> I am Hamlet, prince of Borg! Prepare to be. . . or not to be
> I am Haskell of Borg. You resist well, Mrs. Cleaver.
> I am Lancelot of Borg. Resistance is feudal.
> I am Lennon of Borg. Imagine there's no assimilation . . .
> I am Madonna of Borg. Resistance turns me on.
> I am Mr. Rogers of Borg. Won't you be assimilated with me?
> I am Obi Wan of Borg. Killing me is futile.
> I am Odo of Borg.  No, now I'm a Cylon.  No, now I'm a...
> I am Opie of Borg.  Can I assimilate 'em, Pa?
> I am Oprah of Borg. So, why did you assimilate your husband?
> I am Quayle of Borg.  Speling is irelevante.
> I am Ronald Reagan of Borg.  Prepare to be ... uh, I don't recall.
> I am Rush Limbaugh of Borg.  That's a scary thought, eh?
> I am Scooby of Borg. Reware roo re arrimirated, Raggy!
> I am Skywalker of Borg. So, Ben, what do I do now ?
> I am Smiley Face of Borg. Nice days are irrelevant.
> I am Smorgas of Borg.  You will be marinated.

I am Gary Burnore of Borg.  Rational debate is futile.  Prepare to be 
assimilated, f*ckhead!  *PLONK*

--






From rfarmer at HiWAAY.net  Tue Nov 25 19:11:30 1997
From: rfarmer at HiWAAY.net (Randall Farmer)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:11:30 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711260102.UAA25089@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971125202014.22431G-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>



> You could just use RSA encryption to encrypt the message in the following
> manner:
> 
> The user encrypts the message with his *private* key. 

That's a signature. 

...
> At a bare minimum this would have to be done on a level of granularity of a 
> sent[e]nce to have any meaning at all and even then [its] rel[e]vance would
> be questioned. 

Quoting in the real world is like that (although that would allow you to
transpose/repeat sentences [?]). The problem is more one of having too much to
sign (processor time/bandwidth), but I think you're always going to have that
with a small granularity. Also, when not using a hash, you have to worry about
chosen-gidget attacks (see the excerpt from the PGP Attack FAQ after my
.sig...). 
 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer at hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From the PGP Attack FAQ:

 Choosen cipher-text attack
  
   An attacker listens in on the insecure channel in which RSA messages
   are passed. The attacker collects an encrypted message c, from the
   target (destined for some other party). The attacker wants to be able
   to read this message without having to mount a serious factoring
   effort. In other words, she wants m=c^d.
   
   To recover m, the attacker first chooses a random number, r<n. (The
   attacker has the public-key (e,n).) The attacker computes:
   
   x=r^e mod n (She encrypts r with the target's public-key)
   
   y=xc mod n (Multiplies the target ciphertext with the temp)
   
   t=r^-1 mod n (Multiplicative inverse of r mod n)
   
   The attacker counts on the fact property that:
   
                      If x=r^e mod n, Then r=x^d mod n
                                      
   The attacker then gets the target to sign y with her private-key,
   (which actually decrypts y) and sends u=y^d mod n to the attacker. The
   attacker simply computes:
   
    tu mod n = (r^-1)(y^d) mod n = (r^-1)(x^d)(c^d) mod n = (c^d) mod n
                                    = m
                                      
   To foil this attack do not sign some random document presented to you.
   Sign a one-way hash of the message instead.
 
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   HTML 3.2 Checked!
   Last modified: 19 Nov 1996
   Author: infiNity <daemon9 at netcom.com>
   Comments: galactus at stack.nl
   This document was generated with Orb v1.3 for OS/2.







From hauman at bb.com  Tue Nov 25 19:17:24 1997
From: hauman at bb.com (Glenn Hauman)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:17:24 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <347AF2E5.CD900646@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <v03007801b0a13368fd09@[166.84.212.167]>



At 12:40 PM -0500 11/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Former NY Times and Newseek reporter David Burnham writes in his book about
>the Justice Department: "The record is clear. Political campaign
>contributions, personal bribes and other direct and indirect favors have
>frequently influenced important Justice Department disions about the
>enforcement of law... Virtually every administration has demanded that the
>Justice Department bend the law..."

Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
after Microsoft? By who?


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/







From cg at miaow.com  Tue Nov 25 19:39:10 1997
From: cg at miaow.com (Christian Goetze)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:39:10 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971125191525.00940450@shell5.ba.best.com>



At 09:04 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>
>At 12:40 PM -0500 11/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>Former NY Times and Newseek reporter David Burnham writes in his book about
>>the Justice Department: "The record is clear. Political campaign
>>contributions, personal bribes and other direct and indirect favors have
>>frequently influenced important Justice Department disions about the
>>enforcement of law... Virtually every administration has demanded that the
>>Justice Department bend the law..."
>
>Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
>after Microsoft? By who?
I suppose that the slant was more like this: either Microsoft pays up and
gets a restrained treatment from the DOJ or else...
--
cg






From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 25 19:54:43 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:54:43 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b0a13368fd09@[166.84.212.167]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971125193625.11940B-100000@well.com>



My point is the same as Ed Black's, and (I believe) David Burnham's: 
Antitrust investigations as important as this one cannot be divorced from
politics. I suppose a corollary to that is that MSFT's competitors should
be wary of calling for the Feds to step in; that can backfire when MSFT
increases its lobbying efforts and turns the tables.

-Declan

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Glenn Hauman wrote:

> At 12:40 PM -0500 11/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >Former NY Times and Newseek reporter David Burnham writes in his book about
> >the Justice Department: "The record is clear. Political campaign
> >contributions, personal bribes and other direct and indirect favors have
> >frequently influenced important Justice Department disions about the
> >enforcement of law... Virtually every administration has demanded that the
> >Justice Department bend the law..."
> 
> Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
> after Microsoft? By who?







From love at cptech.org  Tue Nov 25 20:54:50 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:54:50 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <19971126012639357.AAB144@antigone>
Message-ID: <347B9F88.7F4D3589@cptech.org>



Paul Spirito wrote:
 > Declan,
> 
> All of your examples are of antitrust actions *stopped* by political
> pressure. Of course, monopolies tend to have lots of cash, & that buys
> influence -- but this is just one more reason to bust them: the
> disproportion in economic power within the industry corrupts the
> political system.


    I have worked on several antitrust issues over the past several
years.  My first serious attempt to stop a a merger involved tbe Thomson
purchase of West Publishing, for $3.4 billion.  This involved 2 of the
three large legal publishers (West was number 1).  West publishing was a
privately owned firm.  The largest shareholders were the Opperman
family.  The Opperman family gave Clinton and other democratic party
funds more than $300k during the merger review, directly, and raised
more from third parties.  Vance Opperman had coffee with Clinton and
dinner with Gore during the review.  Earlier Vance had approached
Clinton at a fundraiser to intervene in a Reno antitrust investigation
of West (which was dropped).  The merger was approved, after a
compulsory license and some modest divestitures (we were quite unhappy
with the result).

   We opposed the Bell Atlantic/Nynex merger (we didn't do as much as we
should).  Bell Atlantic has so much capitol hill juice they were able to
hold up Klein's nomination, basically until the merger was approved.

   We opposed the Staples/Office Depot merger, and were quite active. 
This was before the FTC.  Staples launched a very large PR campaign,
with some hill lobbying, but the FTC held its ground, and the merger was
stopped.

   We opposed the Boeing/McDonnell Douglas merger.  Not only did the FTC
permit the merger without any strings (Numbers 1 and 3 in a 3 firm
market with huge entry barriers), but Bill Clinton personally lobbied
the EC to approve the merger, and sent a delegation to Brussels, which
included Joel Klein, the DOJ antitrust head, to argue against
divestiture of the McDonnell Douglas civilian airline business.

    I've worked on other mergers, including  mergers in the railroad
industry, the hospital industry, and the pharmaceutical industry, and I
have been involved in other antitrust issues, such as in attempts to get
the FCC to make cable systems unbundle set top boxes, and create cross
ownership rules between cellular and PCS, and cable and DBS.  In
virtually every case politics played a role.   Typically, the incumbent
firms, or the one that want to merger, have the most influence,
politically.

    Thus, I was surprised to hear Declan say that we thought politics
didn't play a role in antitrust actions against Microsoft.  There are
many areas where politics come into play.  Gore sent his daughter to
work for Microsoft during the DOJ investigation.  Microsoft has rallied
its troops, starting with the Washington state delegation, they have
also picked up players like Vin Weber to talk with Ginrich, and they are
involved in countless other attempts to influence the Congress and the
executive branch.  Microsoft's competitors have been active too. 
Senator Hatch is obviously concerned about what MS had done to Novell
and Wordperfect.  The stakes are high, and there is a lot going on. 
That doesn't mean politics is the whole ball game.  Public opinion is a
big factor, as is the opinion of experts or reasonably informed persons.

   It is generally difficult to get DOJ or the FTC to bring an antiturst
action against anyone.  The Microsoft case is very high profile, for
many reasons.  Now that DOJ is engaged, I would expect them to make
every effort to prevail on the narrow issue before the court.  Who knows
if DOJ will be interested in pursuing the broader issues about MS's use
of the OS to gain leverage in applicaitons markets.  There is a lot
still up in the air. 

  Jamie


-- 
James Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
voice 202.387.8030; fax 202.234.5176
http://www.cptech.org  |  love at cptech.org






From wendigo at ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org  Tue Nov 25 21:01:00 1997
From: wendigo at ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org (Mark Rogaski)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:01:00 +0800
Subject: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971125032250.0e3719dc@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711260447.XAA20533@deathstar.jabberwock.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Mikhael Frieden wrote:

: 
:         Making the cookie read only and erasing previous additions does the
: same thing for free. Cottrell is PT Barnum speaking. 
: 

Considering that the bulk of the online population doesn't even know how to
use the 'attrib' command, that's a useless argument.  Anyway, that's only one
aspect of the Anonimizer service.

Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo at pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNHup7cHFI4kt/DQOEQJTHwCeNrRjT+jPVNyZXLuzjL5OkzqbC9AAoKDE
8YhHySNUFV7nb1i7R6z2lj5F
=mav7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From extrainc at opus.org  Wed Nov 26 13:56:15 1997
From: extrainc at opus.org (extrainc at opus.org)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:56:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 29 Million Fresh E-Mail Addresses for only $35 !!!
Message-ID: <>


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                                       SHERMAN OAKS, CA 91423 







From extrainc at opus.org  Wed Nov 26 13:56:15 1997
From: extrainc at opus.org (extrainc at opus.org)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:56:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 29 Million Fresh E-Mail Addresses for only $35 !!!
Message-ID: <>


         29 MILLION EMAIL  ADDRESSES VIA E-MAIL FOR ONLY $35

          Yes, we have 29 Million  FRESH email addresses that we will sell for only
$35. They are all sorted and ready to be mailed.  That is the best deal anywhere
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That's  $1,450,000  in your pocket !!! Don't believe it?
          These 29 Million email addresses are yours to keep, so you can use them
over and over. We also include the stealth mailer - this is a full version of the
incredibly fast mailing program that hides your email address when you send
mail so no one will find out where it came from and you won't lose your dial up
account. The stealth mailer  is an incredible program and absolutly FREE
with your order !


Print this E-Mail, fill the order form.
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                                ORDER FORM


Enclosed is my payment of  $35.00    ____Check    ____Money order

Name______________________  Address_______________________

______________________________State____ Zip Code___________


E-Mail address_____________________/_______________________
                                         Please print twice


               * Make Check/Money order payable, and mail the form to:

                                       M.I.R. CONSULTING, INC.

                        4334 MATILIJA AVENUE, STE 215, DEPT. 27
                                       SHERMAN OAKS, CA 91423 







From gbroiles at netbox.com  Tue Nov 25 21:56:48 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:56:48 +0800
Subject: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971125204149.2569B-100000@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971125212727.00770890@pop.sirius.com>



Kent Crispin wrote:

>The whole notion of "the policeman inside" is stupid sloganeering.  Of
>*course* we have a policeman inside -- we have something that tells us
>(at least some of us) that murder, theft, and dishonesty are 
>behaviors to be avoided.  We have something that tells us (some of us) 
>it would be foolish to make a habit of running red lights.

"The policeman inside" is neither a conscience nor an instinct towards
self-preservation. I'm familiar with the term being used to refer to the
internalization of a system of external rules, coupled with a belief in
pervasive surveillance and/or the adoption of the viewpoint of an external
supervisor, such that one with a "policeman inside" learns to fear
punishment at every moment and in every situation. See, for example,
Bentham's Panopticon or Foucault's _Discipline & Punish_ for more on the
topic. 

Also, you may note that two of the three terms you used as examples of
"wrong" behavior themselves imply judgments and a moral position - "theft"
and "murder". Whether or not the taking of a physical thing is "theft" can
be a complex question, that has a lot to do with contracts and agreements
and socially constructed ideas about property. Similarly, "murder" is (to
adopt a broad definition) an unlawful and intentional homicide - which,
again, presupposes certain judgements about relationships between people.

It's easy to say that "theft and murder are wrong", because wrongness is
part of the meaning of the terms "theft" and "murder". It's much less
satisfying to say something like "it's wrong to take things that someone
else thinks they own, unless they're mistaken or you have a superior claim"
or "it's wrong to shoot someone who didn't deserve to be shot".

It's the creation of a "policeman inside" which causes people to lose their
ability to make judgements about which people (if any) ought to be shot and
which people deserve to keep their stuff. And that loss of the ability
(cognitive and moral) is, I think, a direct cause of the very crimes (theft
and murder) you mention.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Tue Nov 25 21:56:52 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:56:52 +0800
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <EPtLawOnbaoGUl8PvUSglw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971125223700.72166A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>



On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> May Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya's forgeries 
> get stuck up his ass so he'll have to 
> shit through his filthy mouth for the 
> rest of its miserable life.
> 
> 
>  /~~~\
> {-O^O-} Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya
>  \ o /
>   (-)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Tue Nov 25 22:36:46 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:36:46 +0800
Subject: Prevention of War
In-Reply-To: <199711252034.VAA01169@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711260732.BAA00590@smoke.suba.com>



> Imagine that in 1938 Germany that half the relationships people had
> happened to cross borders.  This would mean that it would have been
> far easier for many people to simply flee Germany because they would
> have more couches to sleep on abroad, more people who would maybe lend
> money to make it possible, and more world wide sympathy for refugees.

	Look at Bosnia. These people were NEIGHBORS. Not as in across
the border, but as in NEXT DOOR. After 40+ years of Communist rule, they
were as thoroughly mixed as they could be. The boot heel lifts and 
so do the guns. 

	People just plain don't like other people.






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Tue Nov 25 22:38:22 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:38:22 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711260733.BAA00603@smoke.suba.com>



> It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed
> the particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is
> there a way to do this?  (It seems impossible, but so does mental
> poker.)

	Assuming that they digitally signed the entire document, simply
put it on the web, quote the part you want and reference the original
signed peice in the message.






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 25 23:08:02 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:08:02 +0800
Subject: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971126015057.0e475c66@pop.mindspring.com>



At 11:47 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Mark Rogaski wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1

>An entity claiming to be Mikhael Frieden wrote:

>:         Making the cookie read only and erasing previous additions does the
>: same thing for free. Cottrell is PT Barnum speaking. 

>Considering that the bulk of the online population doesn't even know how to
>use the 'attrib' command, that's a useless argument.  Anyway, that's only one
>aspect of the Anonimizer service.

        If he is charging $60, I will do it for them for $50. For $40 I
will sell detailed instructions. For $30 I well tell them about attrib /h. 

        For free it tell how not to be individually tracked. I do not think
my prices are out of line. 

        If people are worried about more than individual tracking, they are
doing things that they should not be doing with a browser in the first place. 
-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From mikhaelf at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 25 23:12:02 1997
From: mikhaelf at mindspring.com (Mikhael Frieden)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:12:02 +0800
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971126013912.10c79c0e@pop.mindspring.com>



At 09:45 AM 11/24/97 -0500, Jon Galt wrote:
>> >>         Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
>> >> committing a crime.

>(Galt)
>> >And who is it that gets to decide what is a "crime" and what is not?  

>(Frieden)
>>         It would appear to me that an illegal in the country is as much in
>> the act of committing a crime as a burglar is while in a place other than
>> his own. 

>I don't dispute this.  If a "crime" is defined as whatever the 
>politicos/bureaucrats/hoodlums say it is, then a "crime" is certainly 
>being committed.  (Of course there is another definition of crime.)

        Actually there are the courts who write their own law by intuition
protected by life tenure. 

>(Galt)
>> >The 
>> >politicos, the bureaucrats, the hoodlums in DC and elsewhere who think 
>> >they have the right to run the lives of everybody else.

>(Frieden)
>>         The politicians are responding to voters. The voters who are
>> pressuring them are siding with foreign nationals against the interests of
>> the United States which is presumed to be their new country of loyalty.

>"If voting could change anything, it would have been outlawed long ago."  
>Not strictly true.  But if I vote or don't vote...well it's just about 
>the same difference as whether I buy a lottery ticket or not.

>Don't vote - it only ENCOURAGES them!

        There has been a suggestion to outlaw political parties. Once
outlawed solicitations and organizations could be criminalized. 

        More practically, the ultimate objective if to find a way to
prohibit politicians from being involved in any that can yield a profit.
Force they to stick to the "thou shalt nots." Never let them get into areas
where compliance with the law can yield a profit. "For only from profits
can come campaign contributions." 

>> That siding should be sufficient justification remove citizenship and
>> return them to the land of dysentary and mui Ninos. 

>Citizenship, Schmitizenship.  Granted I don't want to renounce my 
>citizenship - at least not at the moment.  But the whole game of riling 
>up people's emotions about "citizenship" and "patriotism" is just a bread 
>and circuses ruse to keep us focused on something other than what the 
>professional control freaks are doing to us.

        But certainly any professed citizen acting in a manner other than
the pure self interest of the US be sent elsewhere. 

        Or as RAH suggested, voting should not be matter of age and
breathing only. 

>(Galt)
>> >Again I ask the question:
>> >What gives the hoodlums in Washington DC the right to draw a line on a 
>> >map and control people's travel across that line?
 
>>         The people who made handgun ownership a felony gave them that
right. 

>The people who made handgun ownership a felony should be sent down a dark 
>alley without any means of self-defense.  Perhaps they would gain a small 
>glimmer of understanding of the real issues - unless they already 
>understand that they are the hoodlums around the corner in the dark 
>alley.  In that case....

        Anyone involved in the illegal drug business and in his right mind
does everything he can to assure that his drugs remain illegal. That
includes encouraging every manner of condemnation of drugs even if only
inviting the simpletons to give their anti-drug speech for a hefty
honorarium. 

>>         Lawmakers are resonsible for all foreseeable consequences not just
>> the intended consequences. 

>Lawmakers can hardly be held responsible for tying their own shoes!  I 
>suspect you had your satire mode on full when you wrote this.

        I have often suspected this is the alternate reality created by a
satirist. Nothing can really be as absurd of this. 



-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 






From Biz-Man at GoodAdvertising.com  Wed Nov 26 15:32:56 1997
From: Biz-Man at GoodAdvertising.com (Biz-Man at GoodAdvertising.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:32:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: -Years End Holiday Special -
Message-ID: <8339883_38716132>



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      Phone (602)267-9688 Fax (602)275-1868  1-11pm (MST)
                 E-mail: Intrepid-1 at Juno.com


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From jmr at shopmiami.com  Wed Nov 26 00:08:08 1997
From: jmr at shopmiami.com (Jim Ray)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:08:08 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971126024241.3c7752a2@pop.gate.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:15 PM 11/25/97 -0800, Christian Goetze wrote:
>At 09:04 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Glenn Hauman wrote:
...
>>Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
>>after Microsoft? By who?
>I suppose that the slant was more like this: either Microsoft pays up and
>gets a restrained treatment from the DOJ or else...

Well, Gates has given bucks to the gungrabbing campaign, one of the
issues Slick has not waffled on...
JMR
[I'm not on c-punks, please cc any replies to me.]

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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 26 00:59:06 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:59:06 +0800
Subject: IBM, Compaq, Toshiba WANTED (pwn)
In-Reply-To: <01BCF999.D64FD580@edward>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126001913.0068a644@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 01:54 PM 11/25/1997 -0600, Eric Cordian wrote:
>A Spammer Writes:
>
>> To give you an idea of the specific models I am interested in I have
>> listed below units which I currently have back orders for, list as
>> follows..... 
>
>Do you also steal cars to order?

If he doesn't, you need to go to http://www.digicrime.com/
and use the Internet Shoplifting Service instead :-)

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 26 01:09:47 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:09:47 +0800
Subject: Open Letter from ClickZ Publisher
In-Reply-To: <347b570e.6405845@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126005217.0068a644@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 03:00 AM 11/25/1997 -0000, some flamer using lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
> For further info on Gary's arrest, visit: 
>   http://www.e-media.com/cm/sac.html
>First off, it eventually became "a ticket actually" because it was plea
>bargained down to that.  That's one of the advantages of committing a
>"politically correct" offense in a city like Frisco.  The San Francisco 
>Police Department presumably doesn't take people into custody and impound 
>their vehicles for mere traffic tickets.

The SFPD _was_ arresting several hundred people that night
and impounding their bicycles for what might normally have been
traffic tickets, though many of the arrests were for "failure to disperse" --
Mayor Willie Brown had been taking enough PR heat for the Critical Mass
bicycle rides, and decided he had to "do something".
All but a few of the arrestees were out in a few hours,
with at most traffic tickets, and got their bikes back the next day
(the city DA had to keep reminding Da Mayor that he couldn't legally
just confiscate them.)

I wasn't on the same block as Burnore, so I don't know if he was being
personally obnoxious when he got busted, or was one of the many
who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
(Not that Critical Mass isn't somewhat confrontational :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 26 01:36:21 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:36:21 +0800
Subject: Security Risks in HTTP Proxy Agents (Re: Anonymizer rocks! (Re: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News))
In-Reply-To: <199711251009.KAA01273@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126012116.00725920@popd.ix.netcom.com>



Besides the risks of using proxy.evil.nsa.mil or proxy.blacknet.net,
there are other subtle things that a proxy server could do.
For instance, replacing banner ads is easy - you can't recognize them all,
but ad.doubleclick.net and linkexchange.com are easy targets;
an anonymizing proxy might replace those ads with its own,
or at least with static images that load faster.
This has a lot of implications when using the proxy to access
advertising-supported web sites, and there have been lawsuits over
web services that provided access to other web-based news services
while adding their own advertising banners in another frame
(one such target was totalnews.com.)

Of course, if you want to make advertising banners go away,
you can start by aliasing ad.doubleclick.net to 127.0.0.2 or whatever;
I've found it loads much faster this way :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 26 02:04:17 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:04:17 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711250120.CAA06322@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126012321.007516a8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 07:03 PM 11/24/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Wait...they burned the White House to the ground?
>Maybe we need to rethink this...maybe the British were ur-Cypherpunks.

Penny for the Guy?    :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 26 02:26:14 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:26:14 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126021529.0071f210@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>Cantsin> A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph 
>Cantsin> or line separately, but that's obviously inelegant.
>
>Geiger> Well this could be done by creating a document signature 
>Geiger> and then a collection of sub signatures but it can get ugly real quick.

Creating chains of hashes lets you do this without having to
do signatures on each piece - you just sign the hash at the end.
So you'd create 
	hash_page_1 = hash( hash(page_1_para_1), hash(page_1_para_2)...)
	hash_final  = hash( hash_page_1, hash_page_2, ... )
	sign( hash_final, signaturekey )
or whatever hierarchy you like, and to demonstrate you've got page_2_para_2
correctly, you provide the hashes for all the page, and the hashes for
all the paragraphs on page 2.

But then Geiger brings out the other important point:
>Then what does the sub signature really tell you? Yes you can verify that
>the quote was written by someone but it may be taken completely out of
>context. How about when several blocks of text from different messages are
>combined. Each individual block checks out but by combining them the text
>has a completely different meaning than the original document.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Wed Nov 26 04:02:58 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:02:58 +0800
Subject: Microsoft/Phillipines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971124223818.2537B-100000@everest.pinn.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971126212446.135K-100000@shirley>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jon Galt wrote:

[...]

> I think it is really cool that a private company can actually negotiate 
> somewhat as an equal with a government.

If thare power is equal with government then there corruption will be
equal with government.  Goverment, corperation, caffelblonker there all
the diffrent lables for the same missgided idear.

> But the other thing it might imply is that the power of government is 
> slipping - which is definitely a good thing.

Now its just changing hands.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From Friendly29817 at only.com  Wed Nov 26 20:47:36 1997
From: Friendly29817 at only.com (Friendly29817 at only.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:47:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: THIS IS ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO NEEDS MONEY RIGHT NOW!
Message-ID: <>


DEAR FRIEND:

My name is Dick Hollman. In September 1991 my car was repossessed, and
bill collectors were hounding me like you wouldn't believe. I was laid off from
work and my unemployment insurance ran out. In October '91, I received a
letter telling me how to earn $800,000 anytime I wanted to! Of course I was
skeptical, but because I was so desperate, and had virtually nothing to lose, I
gave it a try. In January '92, my family and I went on a 10 day CRUISE! In
February I bought a new Cadillac with Cash! Today I'm well to do and I am
currently building a second home in Virginia and will NEVER HAVE TO WORK
AGAIN !!!

This program works perfectly. I have never failed to make $800,000 in each
mailing. This is a legitimate business opportunity; a perfectly legal money making
program. It does not require you to sell anything, or come in personal contact
with people. Best of all, the only time you have to leave home is to mail the
letters, and you can do that on the way to the grocery store!

BE HONEST, HAVEN'T YOU "BLOWN" MONEY IN RESTURANTS OR ON
ITEMS THAT GIVE ONLY TEMPORARY PLEASURE? FOLLOW THESE
INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR DREAMS WILL COME TRUE!!!

FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY AND IN 20 TO 90 DAYS YOU
WILL RECEIVE OVER $800,000.
                                                                GUARANTEED!!!

1. IMMEDIATELY SEND $1 (CASH, CHECK OR MONEY ORDER) TO EACH
    OF THE NAMES LISTED BELOW. WRAP THE DOLLAR BILL IN A NOTE
    SAYING "PLEASE ADD MY NAME TO YOUR MAILING LIST." THIS IS A
    LEGITIMATE SERVICE FOR WHICH YOU ARE PAYING $1.

2. REMOVE THE NAME AT THE TOP OF THE LIST AND MOVE THE OTHER
    FIVE UP ONE SO THAT #2 BECOMES #1 AND SO ON. PUT YOUR NAME
    ON AS #6.

3. E-MAIL NEW LIST TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE SENT YOU THEIR PROGRAMS
    OR  PROGRAMS YOU FIND IN THE NEWS GROUPS.
       
      I spent about 15 minutes last night looking in the news groups and came
up with more than enough names. You are not limited to 20 by any means -
the more you send, the more gifts you will receive. Each time someone emails
you their program, send them a copy of this to keep the cash coming in.

4. WITHIN 90 DAYS YOU SHOULD RECEIVE YOUR $800,000 ! KEEP A
    COPY OF THIS LETTER SO YOU CAN USE IT AGAIN WHEN YOU
    NEED MONEY. 

JUST DO IT!!!



1. Ophelia Harris, 228 Morrow Rd, Apt 18-D, Forest Park, GA 30297

2. L. S. Owensby, PO Box 871249, Stone Mountain, GA 30087-1249 

3. C. L. Hollis, PO Box 4, Hogh Rolls, NM 88325-0004

4. Julian M. Repta, 3539 S. Wolcott, Chicago, IL 60609

5. D. Lee, 3020 Longleaf Lane, Augusta, GA 30906

6. I. Ahkinazi, 4334 Matilija Ave, # 215, Sherman Oaks, CA 91423


HERE COMES THE INTERESTING PART.

AT A COSERVATIVE RATE OF RESPONSE. ASSUME FOR EXAMPLE
YOU GET A 7.5% RETURN RATE. MY FIRST ATTEMPT WAS ABOUT
9.5% AND MY SECOND WAS 11%

1. When sending out 200 letters, 15 people will send you $1.00
2. These 15 send out 200 letters each and 225 people send you $1.00
3. Those 225 send out 200 letters each and 3,375 people send you $1.00
4. Those 3, 375 send out 200 letters each and 50,625 people send you $1.00
5. Those 50, 625 people send out 200 letters each and 759,375 people send
    you $1.00


At this point your name is dropped off the list, but so far you have received
$813, 615!!! It works every time, but how well depends on how many letters
you send out. In the above example you send 200 letters out. I guarantee it's
correct. With this kind of return you've got to try it. Try it once and you'll try
it again!


NOT ENOUGH? WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR ??? MAIL! MAIL! MAIL!!!

PLAY IT SMART IN HANDLING YOUR MONEY, ESPECIALLY IF YOU
NEVER HAD SO MUCH MONEY IN YOUR POSSESSION.

KEEP WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOURSELF FOR A WHILE. MANY WILL
TELL YOU, IT WON'T WORK AND TRY TO TALK YOU OUT OF YOUR
DREAMS. AFTER IT WORKS LET THEM KNOW OF YOUR SUCCESS!!!

YOU HAVE NOW COMPILED A VERY EXTENSIVE MAILING LIST FIRM,
OR... MAY START YOUR OWN.

J. Hollman says, "I am naturally skeptical and I had received at least 35 letters
similar to this one in a six month period. However, there was something about
this one I liked. IT TAKES LESS INVESTMENT than others, and ALL
PARTICIPANTS receive money, not just the one! Anyway, I sent out 250
letters and hoped for the best. Nothing happened for 11 days, but on the
12th day I received $909.00! Over the next four and one-half months I
received over $800,000 cash in the mail. I'm doing it again with 1000 letters!!!"

S. Friseh - "I wanted to try a similar program in which it cost me $5 for 5 names,
plus much more expenses of which, at the time, I didn't have enough capital to
invest. The first time I sent this letter, I got my first response in one week! After
a short period of time, I got well over $800,000!!! AND NOW I'M TRYING IT
AGAIN!!! GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU!!!  IT REALLY WORKS!!!"

G. Daniels - "When I got this letter I said "yeah sure" and pitched it! Then I
remembered that skepticism breeds failure, while beliefs lead to success! So
I rescued the letter, typed a fresh mailing list and sent it out. Thank Heaven I
did!"

You can get better too!!! Once you make money, what will you do if someone
sends you this letter again? Remember how nature works! WHAT GOES
AROUND COMES AROUND! DO IT AGAIN AND KEEP THE ABUNDANCE
FLOWING FOR EVERYONE!!!         










From Friendly29817 at only.com  Wed Nov 26 20:47:36 1997
From: Friendly29817 at only.com (Friendly29817 at only.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:47:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: THIS IS ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO NEEDS MONEY RIGHT NOW!
Message-ID: <>


DEAR FRIEND:

My name is Dick Hollman. In September 1991 my car was repossessed, and
bill collectors were hounding me like you wouldn't believe. I was laid off from
work and my unemployment insurance ran out. In October '91, I received a
letter telling me how to earn $800,000 anytime I wanted to! Of course I was
skeptical, but because I was so desperate, and had virtually nothing to lose, I
gave it a try. In January '92, my family and I went on a 10 day CRUISE! In
February I bought a new Cadillac with Cash! Today I'm well to do and I am
currently building a second home in Virginia and will NEVER HAVE TO WORK
AGAIN !!!

This program works perfectly. I have never failed to make $800,000 in each
mailing. This is a legitimate business opportunity; a perfectly legal money making
program. It does not require you to sell anything, or come in personal contact
with people. Best of all, the only time you have to leave home is to mail the
letters, and you can do that on the way to the grocery store!

BE HONEST, HAVEN'T YOU "BLOWN" MONEY IN RESTURANTS OR ON
ITEMS THAT GIVE ONLY TEMPORARY PLEASURE? FOLLOW THESE
INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR DREAMS WILL COME TRUE!!!

FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY AND IN 20 TO 90 DAYS YOU
WILL RECEIVE OVER $800,000.
                                                                GUARANTEED!!!

1. IMMEDIATELY SEND $1 (CASH, CHECK OR MONEY ORDER) TO EACH
    OF THE NAMES LISTED BELOW. WRAP THE DOLLAR BILL IN A NOTE
    SAYING "PLEASE ADD MY NAME TO YOUR MAILING LIST." THIS IS A
    LEGITIMATE SERVICE FOR WHICH YOU ARE PAYING $1.

2. REMOVE THE NAME AT THE TOP OF THE LIST AND MOVE THE OTHER
    FIVE UP ONE SO THAT #2 BECOMES #1 AND SO ON. PUT YOUR NAME
    ON AS #6.

3. E-MAIL NEW LIST TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE SENT YOU THEIR PROGRAMS
    OR  PROGRAMS YOU FIND IN THE NEWS GROUPS.
       
      I spent about 15 minutes last night looking in the news groups and came
up with more than enough names. You are not limited to 20 by any means -
the more you send, the more gifts you will receive. Each time someone emails
you their program, send them a copy of this to keep the cash coming in.

4. WITHIN 90 DAYS YOU SHOULD RECEIVE YOUR $800,000 ! KEEP A
    COPY OF THIS LETTER SO YOU CAN USE IT AGAIN WHEN YOU
    NEED MONEY. 

JUST DO IT!!!



1. Ophelia Harris, 228 Morrow Rd, Apt 18-D, Forest Park, GA 30297

2. L. S. Owensby, PO Box 871249, Stone Mountain, GA 30087-1249 

3. C. L. Hollis, PO Box 4, Hogh Rolls, NM 88325-0004

4. Julian M. Repta, 3539 S. Wolcott, Chicago, IL 60609

5. D. Lee, 3020 Longleaf Lane, Augusta, GA 30906

6. I. Ahkinazi, 4334 Matilija Ave, # 215, Sherman Oaks, CA 91423


HERE COMES THE INTERESTING PART.

AT A COSERVATIVE RATE OF RESPONSE. ASSUME FOR EXAMPLE
YOU GET A 7.5% RETURN RATE. MY FIRST ATTEMPT WAS ABOUT
9.5% AND MY SECOND WAS 11%

1. When sending out 200 letters, 15 people will send you $1.00
2. These 15 send out 200 letters each and 225 people send you $1.00
3. Those 225 send out 200 letters each and 3,375 people send you $1.00
4. Those 3, 375 send out 200 letters each and 50,625 people send you $1.00
5. Those 50, 625 people send out 200 letters each and 759,375 people send
    you $1.00


At this point your name is dropped off the list, but so far you have received
$813, 615!!! It works every time, but how well depends on how many letters
you send out. In the above example you send 200 letters out. I guarantee it's
correct. With this kind of return you've got to try it. Try it once and you'll try
it again!


NOT ENOUGH? WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR ??? MAIL! MAIL! MAIL!!!

PLAY IT SMART IN HANDLING YOUR MONEY, ESPECIALLY IF YOU
NEVER HAD SO MUCH MONEY IN YOUR POSSESSION.

KEEP WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOURSELF FOR A WHILE. MANY WILL
TELL YOU, IT WON'T WORK AND TRY TO TALK YOU OUT OF YOUR
DREAMS. AFTER IT WORKS LET THEM KNOW OF YOUR SUCCESS!!!

YOU HAVE NOW COMPILED A VERY EXTENSIVE MAILING LIST FIRM,
OR... MAY START YOUR OWN.

J. Hollman says, "I am naturally skeptical and I had received at least 35 letters
similar to this one in a six month period. However, there was something about
this one I liked. IT TAKES LESS INVESTMENT than others, and ALL
PARTICIPANTS receive money, not just the one! Anyway, I sent out 250
letters and hoped for the best. Nothing happened for 11 days, but on the
12th day I received $909.00! Over the next four and one-half months I
received over $800,000 cash in the mail. I'm doing it again with 1000 letters!!!"

S. Friseh - "I wanted to try a similar program in which it cost me $5 for 5 names,
plus much more expenses of which, at the time, I didn't have enough capital to
invest. The first time I sent this letter, I got my first response in one week! After
a short period of time, I got well over $800,000!!! AND NOW I'M TRYING IT
AGAIN!!! GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU!!!  IT REALLY WORKS!!!"

G. Daniels - "When I got this letter I said "yeah sure" and pitched it! Then I
remembered that skepticism breeds failure, while beliefs lead to success! So
I rescued the letter, typed a fresh mailing list and sent it out. Thank Heaven I
did!"

You can get better too!!! Once you make money, what will you do if someone
sends you this letter again? Remember how nature works! WHAT GOES
AROUND COMES AROUND! DO IT AGAIN AND KEEP THE ABUNDANCE
FLOWING FOR EVERYONE!!!         










From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Nov 26 05:30:20 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:30:20 +0800
Subject: The Databasix gang (Paul Pomes @ Qualcomm) is now harrassing the bureau42 remailer
In-Reply-To: <10387.880512745@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <sL2Rge8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Paul Pomes is one of the least intelligent members of the Databasix gang.
He's been harrassing Jeff B.'s upstreams and employers with false complaints
at the same time Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryant, and the rest of the Databasix
gang did, eventually killing the huge cajones remailer. Now they're after
on bureau42. For some reason Pomes slipped and cc'd me one his false complaints
(even though he was ordered not to send me any more e-mail). I ask everyone to
 a) complain about Paul Pomes to Qualcomm, his employer
 b) discuss what we can do to protect bureau42 from Databasix harrassment

Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10389;
	Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:52:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes at Qualcomm.com>
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
Subject: More spam from vulis
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Id: <10385.880512741.1 at zelkova.qualcomm.com>
To: dlv at bwalk.dm.com, remailer-admin at bureau42.ml.org
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:52:25 -0800
Message-Id: <10387.880512745 at zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Sender: ppomes at Qualcomm.com

A mis-edit of my killfile let the following gem from Dimi Vulis through. FYI

/pbp
------- Forwarded Message

Return-Path: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
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	by bureau42.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27483;
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:47:01 GMT
Message-ID: <EPtLawOnbaoGUl8PvUSglw==@bureau42.ml.org>
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody at bureau42.ml.org>
Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.
	It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.
	Please report problems or inappropriate use to the
	remailer administrator at <remailer-admin at bureau42.ml.org>.
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody at bureau42.ml.org>
X-List: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 206

May Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya's forgeries
get stuck up his ass so he'll have to
shit through his filthy mouth for the
rest of its miserable life.


 /~~~\
{-O^O-} Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya
 \ o /
  (-)

------- End of Forwarded Message






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 26 06:05:42 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:05:42 +0800
Subject: official CyberCash response
Message-ID: <v04002712b0a11912a1de@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: cme at cybercash.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:37:14 -0500
To: rah at shipwright.com
From: Carl Ellison <cme at cybercash.com>
Subject: official CyberCash response
Cc: cme at cybercash.com
Mime-Version: 1.0

If you know of any lists where the message appeared but the official
response didn't, you're welcome to post the following.

 - Carl

	--------------------------------------------

[The following should appear in its entirety if it's printed at all.]

The following message appeared on the net.

From: Anonymous <anon at ANON.EFGA.ORG>
Subject:      Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2
To: BUGTRAQ at NETSPACE.ORG

CyberCash v. 2.1.2 has a major security flaw that causes all credit
card information processed by the server to be logged in a file with
world-readable permissions.  This security flaw exists in the default
CyberCash installation and configuration.

The flaw is a result of not being able to turn off debugging.  Setting
the "DEBUG" flag to "0" in the configuration files simply has no
effect on the operation of the server.

In CyberCash's server, when the "DEBUG" flag is on, the contents of
all credit card transactions are written to a log file (named
"Debug.log" by default).

The easiest workaround I've found is to simply delete the existing
Debug.log file.  In my experience with the Solaris release, the
CyberCash software does not create this file at start time when the
DEBUG flag is set to 0.

The inability to turn off debugging is noted on CyberCash's web site
under "Known Limitations".  The fact that credit card numbers are
stored in the clear, in a world readable file, is not.

We have taken this quite seriously and have put through a full release of
our software which will be available Monday 11/24 for three platforms and
others shortly thereafter. The flaw was in the debug logging function, not
in the protocols or core implementation.  Nonetheless, the effect was an
unnecessary exposure of potentially sensitive information, and it shouldn't
have gone out the door that way.  We're tightening our internal processes
to avoid this in the future.

That said, here's the actual exposure.  The credit card information that's
in the clear in the log comes from "merchant-initiated" transactions, which
means the merchant obtains the credit card number from somewhere -- phone,
mail, fax, SSL-protected Internet interaction, or unprotected Internet
interaction.  The merchant thus has the same info in the clear already.

If the card number was provided via a wallet, then the card number is
blinded at the consumer's end.  It is therefore not in the clear as it
passes through the merchant's machine and the reported exposure does not
apply..

In order for the unprotected log to pose a risk of exposure, someone has to
be able to gain access to the merchant's machine.  If the machine is well
protected, viz behind a firewall and/or carefully configured, presumably an
outsider won't be able to gain access.  And in terms of the *additional*
exposure the open log represents over existing risks, if the same
information is accessible in the clear elsewhere on the machine,
eliminating from the log or encrypting the log provides little or no real
protection.  We continue to advise merchants to take strong steps to
protect their machines.

To our knowledge, the exposure documented above has not resulted in the
actual loss of any customer data or other security incident.


----------------------------------
Steve Crocker                                   Desk:  +1 703 716 5214
CyberCash, Inc.                                 Main:  +1 703 620 4200
2100 Reston Parkway                             Fax:   +1 703 620 4215
Reston, VA 20191                                crocker at cybercash.com





--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 26 06:08:38 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:08:38 +0800
Subject: Leviathan Dying
Message-ID: <v0400271ab0a1c6df2a73@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:21:05 -0800
to: misesmail at colossus.net
from: news at mises.org
subject: Leviathan Dying
Sender: owner-misesmail at colossus.net
Precedence: Bulk

"The Future of Liberty" is the title of a feature
piece in VITAL SPEECHES OF THE DAY (November 15,
1997) by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. "The leviathan
state, that monster devouring civilization in this
century, is in the throes of death," says Rockwell.
"This is not a wish or a prediction, but a
conclusion drawn from a broad look at the trends of
the last decade and a half, which, if we take the
right steps, can continue on into the next century.
What has happened around the world--nation states
collapsing, markets outwitting planners, citizens
rising up against government masters--can and is
happening here at home."

The speech is from the 15th anniversary conference
of the Ludwig von Mises Institute. Rockwell--head
of the Institute--explains that in our times, we
are witnessing the development of something more
radical and far reaching than mere "limitation of
government"; the very idea of institutionalized
and centralized state power is under fire.

The primary catalysts for this trend are the end
of the Cold War, the increasing global resentment
of the U.S. imperium, and the rise of new
information technologies. All that's left in their
wake is the reality of Washington as a parasite,
which is how government is increasingly regarded in
the late nineties. Rockwell spells out the
implications of this and foresees a future of
liberty, conditioned on intellectuals being willing,
in the tradition of Mises and Rothbard, to take the
right steps in leading the way.

VITAL SPEECHES is widely indexed. Also in this issue
are speeches by Bill Clinton and Madeleine Albright.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 26 06:15:23 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:15:23 +0800
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711261416.IAA22618@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From owner-travel-advisories at stolaf.edu Wed Nov 26 03:44:15 1997
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:27:10 -0500
From: owner-travel-advisories <owner-travel-advisories at stolaf.edu>
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo
Sender: Wally Doerge <76702.1202 at compuserve.com>
To: travel-advisories at stolaf.edu
Message-ID: <199711241131_MC2-2974-E60C at compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Precedence: bulk

STATE DEPARTMENT TRAVEL INFORMATION - Togo
============================================================
Togo - Consular Information Sheet
 June 20, 1997

Country Description:   Togo is a small west African nation with a 
developing economy.  Tourism facilities are limited, especially 
outside Lome, the capital city.

Entry Requirements:   A passport and visa are required.  Proof of 
yellow fever immunization is required.  Travelers should obtain the 
latest information and details from the Embassy of the Republic of 
Togo, 2208 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20008.  The 
telephone number is (202) 234-4212.  Overseas inquiries should be 
made at the nearest Togo embassy or consulate.

Areas of Instability:  Togo has experienced periodic violence and 
strikes over the past five years. Although the situation has been 
calm since 1994, the potential exists for unsettled political 
conditions.

Medical Facilities:   Medical facilities in Togo are limited.  Some 
medicines are available through local pharmacies.  Doctors and 
hospitals often expect immediate cash payment for health care 
services. U.S. medical insurance is not always valid outside the 
United States.  The Medicare/ Medicaid program does not provide for 
payment of medical services outside the United States.  Travelers 
have found supplemental medical insurance with specific overseas and 
medical evacuation coverage to be useful.  For additional health 
information, travelers can contact the Centers for Disease Control 
and Prevention's international travelers hotline at (404) 332-4559.  
Internet: http://www.cdc.gov.

Information on Crime:   Pickpocketing and theft is common, 
especially along the beach and in the market areas of Lome.  There 
has been an increase in the reports of carjacking. 

Business fraud stemming from Nigerian scam operations target 
Americans and pose dangers of financial loss and physical harm.  
Persons contemplating business deals in Togo with individuals 
promoting investment in Nigeria, especially the Central Bank of 
Nigeria or the Nigerian National Petroleum Company, are strongly 
urged to check with the U.S. Department of Commerce or the U.S. 
Department of State before providing any information, making 
financial commitments, or traveling to Togo.

The loss or theft abroad of a U.S. passport should be reported 
immediately to local police and to the nearest U.S. embassy or 
consulate. The pamphlets "A Safe Trip Abroad" and "Tips for 
Travelers to Sub-Saharan Africa" provide useful information on 
protecting personal security while traveling abroad and on travel in 
the region in general.  Both are available from the Superintendent 
of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C. 
20402. 

Drug Penalties:   U.S. citizens are subject to the laws of the 
country in which they are traveling.  In Togo, the penalties for 
possession, use or trafficking in illegal drugs are strictly 
enforced.  Convicted offenders can expect jail sentences and fines.

Road Safety/Automobile Travel:   Intercity roads are generally 
paved; however, conditions are poor and  dangerous.  Overland travel 
off the main network of roads generally requires a four-wheel drive 
vehicle. Poorly-marked armed checkpoints, often manned by 
undisciplined soldiers, exist throughout the country. Nighttime 
travel on unfamiliar roads is dangerous.  Banditry, ranging from 
extortion by security forces to armed robbery, has been reported on 
all major intercity highways, including the Lome-Cotonou coastal 
highway.

Credit Card Usage:  Not all major credit cards are accepted in 
Togo.  Travelers planning to use credit cards should be aware which 
cards are accepted before they commit to any transaction.

Embassy Location/Registration:  U.S. citizens are encouraged to 
register with the Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy at the 
intersection of Rue Polisher Caventou and Rue Vauban, Lome, 
telephone (228) 21-29-91, and to obtain updated information on 
travel and security in Togo.  The Embassy's fax is (228) 21-79-52 
and the mailing address is B.P. 852, Lome.

 No. 97-106

This replaces the Consular Information Sheet dated May 3, 1996, to 
update information on entry requirements and provide information on 
credit card usage.

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
The "travel-advisories at stolaf.edu" mailing list is the official Internet and
BITNET distribution point for the U.S. State Department Travel Warnings and
Consular Information Sheets.  To unsubscribe, send a message containing the
word "unsubscribe" to:	travel-advisories-request at stolaf.edu

Archives of past "travel-advisories" postings are available at the URL:
"http://www.stolaf.edu/network/travel-advisories.html" or via Gopher:
gopher.stolaf.edu, Internet Resources/US-State-Department-Travel-Advisories






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Nov 26 07:13:37 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:13:37 +0800
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711261416.IAA22618@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711261426.OAA02287@server.test.net>



Hey Jim,

Were you thinking that we all might like to emigrate to Togo or or
something?

Adam

> [Togo travel advisory]






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 26 07:26:53 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:26:53 +0800
Subject: Suggested Reading...
Message-ID: <199711261528.JAA22801@einstein.ssz.com>




The Case Against The Global Economy: and for a turn toward the local
ed. J. Mander, E. Goldsmith
ISBN 0-87156-865-9
$16.00

A collection of 43 essays discussing the consequences and alternatives to
unitary global economy. The homogoneity of such a system is seen as
counter-productive to the long-term human condition.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cme at cybercash.com  Wed Nov 26 07:30:58 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:30:58 +0800
Subject: official CyberCash response
In-Reply-To: <v04002712b0a11912a1de@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126101408.00a1d910@cybercash.com>



Note that the following was posted without the indentation that was used to 
quote the anonymous posting.  I indicate it below with ":>".

At 07:38 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>[The following should appear in its entirety if it's printed at all.]
>
>The following message appeared on the net.
>
:>From: Anonymous <anon at ANON.EFGA.ORG>
:>Subject:      Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2
:>To: BUGTRAQ at NETSPACE.ORG
:>
:>CyberCash v. 2.1.2 has a major security flaw that causes all credit
:>card information processed by the server to be logged in a file with
:>world-readable permissions.  This security flaw exists in the default
:>CyberCash installation and configuration.
:>
:>The flaw is a result of not being able to turn off debugging.  Setting
:>the "DEBUG" flag to "0" in the configuration files simply has no
:>effect on the operation of the server.
:>
:>In CyberCash's server, when the "DEBUG" flag is on, the contents of
:>all credit card transactions are written to a log file (named
:>"Debug.log" by default).
:>
:>The easiest workaround I've found is to simply delete the existing
:>Debug.log file.  In my experience with the Solaris release, the
:>CyberCash software does not create this file at start time when the
:>DEBUG flag is set to 0.
:>
:>The inability to turn off debugging is noted on CyberCash's web site
:>under "Known Limitations".  The fact that credit card numbers are
:>stored in the clear, in a world readable file, is not.
>
>We have taken this quite seriously and have put through a full release of
>our software which will be available Monday 11/24 for three platforms and
>others shortly thereafter. The flaw was in the debug logging function, not
>in the protocols or core implementation.  Nonetheless, the effect was an
>unnecessary exposure of potentially sensitive information, and it shouldn't
>have gone out the door that way.  We're tightening our internal processes
>to avoid this in the future.
>
>That said, here's the actual exposure.  The credit card information that's
>in the clear in the log comes from "merchant-initiated" transactions, which
>means the merchant obtains the credit card number from somewhere -- phone,
>mail, fax, SSL-protected Internet interaction, or unprotected Internet
>interaction.  The merchant thus has the same info in the clear already.
>
>If the card number was provided via a wallet, then the card number is
>blinded at the consumer's end.  It is therefore not in the clear as it
>passes through the merchant's machine and the reported exposure does not
>apply..
>
>In order for the unprotected log to pose a risk of exposure, someone has to
>be able to gain access to the merchant's machine.  If the machine is well
>protected, viz behind a firewall and/or carefully configured, presumably an
>outsider won't be able to gain access.  And in terms of the *additional*
>exposure the open log represents over existing risks, if the same
>information is accessible in the clear elsewhere on the machine,
>eliminating from the log or encrypting the log provides little or no real
>protection.  We continue to advise merchants to take strong steps to
>protect their machines.
>
>To our knowledge, the exposure documented above has not resulted in the
>actual loss of any customer data or other security incident.
>
>
>----------------------------------
>Steve Crocker                                   Desk:  +1 703 716 5214
>CyberCash, Inc.                                 Main:  +1 703 620 4200
>2100 Reston Parkway                             Fax:   +1 703 620 4215
>Reston, VA 20191                                crocker at cybercash.com
>
>
>
>
>
>--- end forwarded text
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
>
>
>
>For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
>"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".
>
>

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme at cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street  PGP 08FF BA05 599B 49D2  23C6 6FFD 36BA D342 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+






From declan at well.com  Wed Nov 26 09:36:46 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:36:46 +0800
Subject: Freedom Forum First Amendment conference (12/16/97)
Message-ID: <v03007805b0a20a532590@[204.254.22.29]>



-----------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:33:05 -0500
From: Paul McMasters <pmcmasters at freedomforum.org>
Subject: First Amendment Conference

	The Freedom Forum is sponsoring a major conference on the First
Amendment
on December 16 in Arlington, Va.  We will be releasing Donna Demac's "State
of the First Amendment" report and a landmark public opinion survey on the
First Amendment.  In addition, there will be presentations by leading
authorities on violence in the media, hate speech, pornography, flag
desecration, television, the Internet, videos, the press, art, and
religion.  If you would like more details and directions for signing up
(there is no charge), please go to my web page at:
	http://www.freedomforum.org/first/1997/11/20famdcon.asp

	Here it is in a nutshell:

	Who:	Everyone concerned about the First Amendment
	What:	State of the First Amendment conference
	Where:  The Freedom Forum World Center, Arlington, Va.
	When:  Tuesday, December 16, from 8:30 a.m. until 5:30 p.m.
	Why:  Release of a major report, "State of the First Amendment," and a
landmark national survey of public attitudes toward the First Amendment
	How:  Just check our web site for details and directions
	The catch:  There is none.  No charge.  Good food.  Good conversation.
First-rate speakers.  Dynamite program.
	Contact:  Paul McMasters, 703-284-3511, or:
			pmcmasters at freedomforum.org







From declan at well.com  Wed Nov 26 09:36:48 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:36:48 +0800
Subject: Cato Institute request for policy papers on encryption
Message-ID: <v03007803b0a2067f3ed2@[204.254.22.29]>



----

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:18:33 -0500
From: Solveig Singleton <solveig at cato.org>
Subject: Request for short policy papers

Cato Institute's progam for information studies (that is, privacy and
crypto) is interested in receiving proposals for **short** policy papers
(five to thirty pages) on different aspects of the encryption debate.  In
particular, I am interested in detailed, well-argued but concise papers
addressing the following:

*  The costs (narrowly conceived) of mandatory key recovery:  OMB has one
estimate with no particular empirical support beyond the assertions of
national security folks.  We are interested in cost estimates that move the
debate forward in being based on something more concrete and reliable than
what has been offered thus far--so, we won't need years of carefully
calibrated econometric data (which just isn't there)--but we do want
something more than speculation.

*  Also needed, a short paper illustrating the impact of the export control
regime on experimental software or hardware ventures.  What are the costs of
the regulatory process in time and money, from the standpoint of the
developer?  Anecdotes welcome.

*  I would also like to do a paper on the uses of encryption in combatting
human rights violations worldwide, again replete with examples and anecdotes...

*  and A short paper on the ease of evading export controls--detailing the
ease with which encryption programs can be homemade, purchased from foreign
sources, etc.;

*  and a short paper on the strength of U.S. assertions that other countries
are likely to go along with U.S. attempts to foist mandatory key escrow upon
everyone by international agreement.

Please contact me if you are interested.



Solveig Singleton
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Director of Information Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 26 09:57:02 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:57:02 +0800
Subject: Newsletter Internetwk: InternetWeek Newsletter - Nov. 25
Message-ID: <v04002736b0a1f3fdc3eb@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Subject: Newsletter Internetwk: InternetWeek Newsletter - Nov. 25
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:01:13 -0500
From: "Eric S. Johansson" <esj at harvee.billerica.ma.us>
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "Eric S. Johansson" <esj at harvee.billerica.ma.us>


------- Forwarded Message

That Ain't No Standard Spec

It looks like SET may have run out of breath before even
leaving the starting gate. Despite a dogged insistence by
its sponsors that the 6-month-old Secure Electronic
Transactions specification is essential to the growth
of Internet commerce, the technology's creators cannot
point to one operational deployment.

And with good reason, apparently. The two main
beneficiaries of the technology--merchants and banks--say
the technology is severely flawed. They say compliance with
the spec does not guarantee compatibility across
vendor implementations. They further charge that SET is too
complex to integrate cleanly with legacy transaction
systems. In short, they say, the standard is not a standard
at all.

"It's an enormously complex technology that's flawed from
the bottom up," according to Aberdeen Group analyst Chris
Stevens. "The only people who are interested in it are the
credit card associations, analysts, the press, Hewlett-
Packard and IBM."

Two of SET's inventors, Hewlett-Packard's VeriFone division
and IBM, all but admitted SET's shortcomings earlier this
month when they announced a program to ensure that their
SET 1.0-enabled products are interoperable.

The results will be published in a reference guide for
developers. But SET products are supposed to be
interoperable by definition, according to the
published spec. Other features of the spec are
confidentiality of information, integrity of data, card
holder account authentication and merchant authentication.

The preliminary 0.0 version of the spec has been extended
to February of next year so retailers can work with a more
tested version through the Christmas season. Version 2.0 is
already in the works for release late next year.

As a result of the glitches, the sponsors of the
initiative, mainly the credit card issuers and E-commerce
software vendors, are loosening their definition of a
standard. "In the SET 1.0 specification, we tried to be as
precise as possible, but any specification is open to
interpretation," said Steve Mott, MasterCard's senior vice
president for E-commerce. "The marketplace will determine
if it's a standard."

Mott acknowledged that the root of SET's troubles is its
complexity. SET relies on a three-tier architecture-the
client wallet, the merchant server and the gateway to
processing banks. Not only does each tier have to exchange
transaction data, but it must be able to do so with
software developed by different vendors. Moreover, as a
certificate-based system, SET requires the management of
digital certificates for millions of merchants and
consumers.

All of this has left the banking industry holding the ball.
"There are a lot of operational issues left unresolved,
like the problem of integrating SET and a new level of
certificate information with the banks' legacy systems,"
said Stephanie Denny, until recently the vice president and
director of marketing for Bank of America's credit card
unit. By Matthew Friedman

http://techweb.cmp.com/internetwk/news/news1124-1.htm

*************************

- -------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 1997 CMP Media Inc. a service of InternetWeek.
- -------------------------------------------------------
Distributed by Email Publishing Inc. - http://www.emailpub.com

------- End of Forwarded Message



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From honig at otc.net  Wed Nov 26 10:33:44 1997
From: honig at otc.net (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:33:44 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <v03007815b0a0bd483d3b@[204.254.22.197]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971126091941.007d5df0@206.40.207.40>



At 09:04 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>At 12:40 PM -0500 11/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
>after Microsoft? By who?
>

The secret MS hack which disables OS's running under .gov domains when the 
right signal is given :-) :-)



------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig at otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.

















From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Nov 26 10:49:45 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:49:45 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971126131804.24545B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>



On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line separately,
> but that's obviously inelegant.

Or use a MIME attachment to store secure hashes (heck, these could even be
CRC32's if you're not too paranoid which you could pack into 5 bytes of
ascii or something) of each of the lines in the body, then a valid
signature of all the hashes at the end. 

When you reply to such a message, you'll need to reattach the hash
attachment to the reply along with some sort of translation table that
says line 20 in this message is quoted from line 502 in the original.

You'll also need some way to do quotes that won't interfere with the hash
testing... maybe using block quotes such as

:Begin_Quote
text
:End_Quote

or delete the ">" chars.  But you'll get in trouble with auto text
justifications...

i.e. reply signature mime attachment:
*Quoted Lines used: 15=234, 16=235, 17=236, etc...
*From Original Mime attachment:
*Begin body hashes
line1hash line2hash line3hash line4hash line5hash.... lineNhash
*Begin body hash signature
slkdjflskdjfjsdlfjsdlf
*End signature

Or when you quote the message, you could have the begin_quote blocks have
the line translation in them.

If you don't mind shoving HTML in the text, the begin quote blocks in the
body of the reply could include the line number.  i.e.

(using square brackets so those using HTML readers will see this.)

[Strong][QuoteLine55-69]
text_of_lines55-69_from_original_message_here.
[/QUOTE][/Strong]



Problem with this scheme:

But, then what do we do about quoted quotes from the reply of the
reply????  We could recurse the stuff through, but then deep replies will
have a large number of attachments if we chose to retain them...  Possible
solution, don't keep quoted quote signatures, or just keep the message
id's of them so they can be verified from an archive server or
something...


While you will need special mailer clients to decode the attachments and
verify the quotes, you still want some compatibility with regular mail
clients...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================







From sal at panix.com  Wed Nov 26 11:10:42 1997
From: sal at panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:10:42 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:Internet Casinos
In-Reply-To: <199711252358.SAA26330@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.971126134625.27783A-100000@panix3.panix.com>



On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> FilterBot V2.11: Originally from cypherpunks/coderpunks/elsewhere
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>  From     : Steve Schear <schear at lvdi.net>
>  Subj     : Internet Casinos
>  Date     : Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:09:16 -0800
>  Forward? : No
>  Return   : schear at lvdi.net
>  MsgID    : <v03102804b091551631d5@[208.129.55.202]>
>  FromList : owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM Thu Nov 13 20:21:47 1997
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> <bold>Internet Casinos Find a Haven in the Caribbean
> </bold>Los Angeles Times
> ST. JOHN'S, Antigua and Barbuda-None of the 64,000 residents of this
> small, three-island Caribbean nation have complained about the latest
> international gambling boom to sweep their secretive little piece of
> paradise.
> 
> In the past few months alone, more than a dozen casinos have opened
> here. But most Antiguans don't even know they exist.
> 
> That's because you can't see them.

If you can't see the tables, how do you know the games aren't rigged?

And do they offer Wayne Newton over streaming Video? What about free
drinks?
   






From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Nov 26 11:23:02 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:23:02 +0800
Subject: : [NTSEC] - cheap tempest solution (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971126141039.24545E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>





=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:50:10 -0500
From: "Stout, William" <StoutW at pios.com>
To: "'ntsecurity at iss.net'" <ntsecurity at iss.net>
Subject: RE: OFF-TOPIC RE: [NTSEC] - cheap tempest solution


> ----- Original Message -----
> From:	Tim Lebrun [SMTP:tlebrun at internetmci.com]
> 
> This may be a stupid  question,  but what is tempest monitoring?  And 
> what kind of information can you get from doing  it?

Ooh, ooh, something I was trained in once.

Tempest protection is the ability to prevent undesirable signals from
escaping a computer system.  

In the old days, electro-mechanical teletypes were used by the military.
 Someone discovered that placing a signal analyzer on the power feed
shows what character is represented by each signal spike.  Automating
the translation gives you a mirror output of each message someplace
else.  Electrical filters (not just transformers which can pass these
signals) prevent this.  Present day keyboards and mice also radiate
signals, readable even though the device is within the FCC part 15 class
A or B device signal emanation restrictions.  Both tube-type and LCD
displays are big transmitters, and can be read by receivers connected to
similarly phased displays.  The receivers can be in a nearby building,
van, plane or satellite.  Makes you think twice when typing PGP messages
or 'accidentally' hitting a 'can be used against you' newsgroup.  Search
for 'Van Eck' for more data.  Physical metallic shielding (and thorough
testing) fixes this.  Network wires and equipment are also major radio
transmitters, metallic types are readable from a distance, and of course
networks can be directly tapped, even glass fiber.  (It's been found in
military environments, a simple wire was surreptitiously stretched above
a ceiling, and which would act as a retransmitter.)  All cables are
guilty of transmitting readable signals if not properly shielded and
filtered.  Van Eck/tempest exploiting devices are used in the
military/spy/wire-fraud/'drug war' business and in both government
sponsored and private corporate espionage.

Don't confuse EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse) protection with Tempest,
since EMP is a high-energy pulse (such as created by a nuclear burst)
that generates a high-voltage electrical pulse in both plugged in and
off-line electronic equipment, and typically frys all unshielded
electronics.  Same effect as a power surge, but affects all circuits,
even parts sitting on shelves.  HERF guns do the same thing.

Damn.  I'm also guilty of contributing to the noise and 'firewalls-list'
demise of NTsecurity list.

Bill Stout








From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Nov 26 11:25:54 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:25:54 +0800
Subject: New Algorithm (reposted)
In-Reply-To: <199711250220.DAA18306@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971126141825.24545F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>




Anyone know what IP address that web server has?  My DNS server wasn't
able to resolve this.

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Hello
> 
>  I send you links to my site where my crypto algorithm is published. I
> hope you will find time to visit it and see what I have
> discover. Algorithms I have design are Anigma and MEX128. Anigma is
> encryption algo based on use Variable Function Technology, it
> main characteristic is possibility to create unique encryption function
> for every possible key. This make algorithm strong to all
> known attacks, this is only my thesis I look for your help to find out
> is it true. Please visit
> <http://eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk/~kbajalc/algo/index.html>. Documentation
> about Anigma and Mex128 now are available only in Macedonian.
> I will appreciate very much if you give me your opinion about Anigma and
> Mex128 or give me address of people who can do.
> 
>                                                                         
> Koki
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------- 
>  Kostadin Bajalcaliev           http://eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk/~kbajalc/
>  26th of April Str. No: 14
>  91480 Gevgelija                 kbajalc at eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk
>  Macedonia                        kbajalc at informa.mk
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------
> 
> 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From honig at otc.net  Wed Nov 26 11:41:36 1997
From: honig at otc.net (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:41:36 +0800
Subject: Cato Institute request for policy papers on encryption
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b0a2067f3ed2@[204.254.22.29]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971126111541.0080b720@206.40.207.40>




Thom. Jefferson was a cryptographer

http://www.monticello.org/Matters/interests/wheel_cipher.html

A good URL for educational tutorials aimed at kids.





------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig at otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.

















From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 26 12:54:55 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 04:54:55 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:Internet Casinos
In-Reply-To: <199711252358.SAA26330@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126122940.0071d73c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 01:49 PM 11/26/1997 -0500, Sal Denaro wrote:
>If you can't see the tables, how do you know the games aren't rigged?

There's a lot of cryptography work addressing this problem,
with variants like "Mental poker".  You can do things like have
the participants each 
- pick a random number, 
- share the hash of their numbers with each other, 
- then share the random numbers with the casino
- then XOR everybody's random numbers together to feed the 
	casino's card shuffler
- play the game, lose the money
- casino reveals its random number
- everybody compares hashes to verify that it was honest


>And do they offer Wayne Newton over streaming Video?
I'm sure that can be arranged :-)
> What about free drinks?
By Fedex.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From emc at wire.insync.net  Wed Nov 26 13:05:04 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 05:05:04 +0800
Subject: Student Writer Harrassed by SS
Message-ID: <199711262045.OAA10392@wire.insync.net>



BERKELEY, Calif. (AP) -- Secret Service agents searched the apartment
of a University of California student newspaper columnist who wrote a
satirical attack on Chelsea Clinton, the writer says.
 
Guy Branum, a columnist for the Daily Californian, said agents
searched his off-campus apartment Monday, the same day Chelsea
Clinton's mother, Hillary Rodham Clinton, visited the university for a
meeting on foster care. Chelsea Clinton is a freshman at rival
Stanford University.
 
The Secret Service office in San Jose refused to comment or confirm
Branum's account. A White House spokeswoman also would not comment.
 
The agents checked for weapons, Branum said Tuesday. They also had him
sign a release giving them access to his medical records, he said.
 
``They wanted to make sure there wasn't anything that would
demonstrate mental instability on my part,'' he said. ``No pictures of
Chelsea with X's through them or something like that.''
 
He said he gave two agents permission for the search after they
threatened to detain him while getting a search warrant if he didn't.
 
Branum said his column, which appeared Thursday, was meant to be
satirical. It was intended to rally spirit before the UC-Stanford
football game.
 
In the column, Branum revealed which dormitory Chelsea lives in and
wrote: ``Show your spirit on Chelsea's bloodied carcass, because as
the Stanford Daily (newspaper) lets us know, she is JUST ANOTHER
STUDENT.''
 
``She embodies the Stanford ethos of establishment worship that must
be subverted and destroyed,'' the column continued. ``Is hate a strong
word? Yes. Is it applicable? Certainly.''
 
The newspaper apologized Friday for undermining a ``student's physical
safety'' and its own reputation.
 
Stanford went on to beat UC, 21-20, in Saturday's game.
 
Branum said the agents who searched his apartment lectured him about
the column and about a previous column in which he referred to the
president as ``Sexual Predator in Chief.''

--  
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov 26 13:05:22 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 05:05:22 +0800
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711261426.OAA02287@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971126215102.25919A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



Who the hell cares about a Togo travel advisory? What's next? The Miami
weather forecast?

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Hey Jim,
> 
> Were you thinking that we all might like to emigrate to Togo or or
> something?
> 
> Adam
> 
> > [Togo travel advisory]
> 
> 


-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From HpyMutant at aol.com  Wed Nov 26 13:45:05 1997
From: HpyMutant at aol.com (HpyMutant at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 05:45:05 +0800
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <971126162253_-2095209519@mrin86.mail.aol.com>



uh...please put me on your mailing list.






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 26 14:04:05 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 06:04:05 +0800
Subject: US Air Force IPSEC Requirements
Message-ID: <v04002726b0a22d3263f4@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


From: "Boyter, Brian A." <boyter at afiwc01.af.mil>
To: "'ipsec at tis.com'" <ipsec at tis.com>
Subject: US Air Force IPSEC Requirements
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:03:03 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-ipsec at ex.tis.com
Precedence: bulk

First, I would like to introduce myself...
My name is Brian Boyter, I'm a Senior Consulting
Engineer with the Computer Sciences Corp, and I
am under contract to the US Air Force Information
Warfare Center in San Antonio, Texas, working on
USAF computer security...

The USAF is evaluating the use of IPSEC products
to help secure its unclassified networks...   These unclas
networks are used to communicate with contractors, and to
process financial, logistic, personnel, and medical data...
The IPSEC would be used to protect the data from
unauthorized viewing and to protect the networks and
computers from hackers...   Our goal is to eventually IPSEC
encrypt all unclassified computer communications end-to-end...

The USAF recently completed a hasty evaluation of several
IPSEC products...   Most products would work fine for a
small organization, but do not scale to an enterprise the size
of the USAF (500,000 computers)...

Here is a short list of basic USAF requirements which we found
lacking in the current IPSEC products:
1. 	The Department of Defense will soon deploy a Public
Key Infrastructure (PKI)...   The IPSEC products need to
use this existing PKI (not require a separate keying product)...
2. 	The USAF uses HP OpenView as its standard SNMP
management product...   Error logging and other IPSEC status
information needs to interoperate with OpenView...
3. 	The USAF needs to be able to manage the IPSEC security
policy sanely...   An example of a USAF IPSEC security policy
might be:  "all USAF computers can talk to all other USAF
computers using DES, all other computers it talks in-the-clear"...
It will not be possible to manage 500,000 different rule sets...
The security policy must be made simple...    We need the X.500
equivalent
of *.mil,  *.af.mil,  *.lackland.af.mil,  and *.hospital.*.af.mil so
that
we can generate rule sets using these wild cards...   I don't think
rules based on IP addresses will work either...

I'm not including interoperability in the above list because the ANX
has done a good job of making that requirement visible....

What I'm trying to point out is two things:
1. The IPSEC products need to re-use as much of our existing
infrastructure as possible (for example PKI, SNMP, etc)...
If the USAF were a small company that didn't have a large
infrastructure
investment already, it wouldn't be an issue...   But if each IPSEC
product
requires a management console at each air force base, then that can
add up to millions of dollars, thousands of man hours, training costs,
etc...
2. I'm also trying to point out that there is no standard (that I can
find) for
representing, storing, or disseminating the security policy....

Although these are Air Force requirements, I'm sure the same
requirements will exist for any large enterprise contemplating the
use
of IPSEC products...

I plan to be at the IETF meeting in December and will be glad to
speak to anyone about these issues...    Perhaps an IPSEC security
policy BOF could even be arranged???

Thanks,
Brian Boyter
boyter at afiwc01.af.mil
(210)977-3113

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 26 14:11:50 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 06:11:50 +0800
Subject: Global Strategic Structure - Speculative
In-Reply-To: <199711250420.WAA16286@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v04002753b0a239e05ebb@[139.167.130.248]>



At 11:20 pm -0500 on 11/24/97, Jim Choate wrote:



>   - a binary system is stable provided each individual party is stable.

Nit:
    - it is hypothesized that the reason that the US has a "binary",
two-"party" system is because of it's "winner-take-all" electoral system.
Proportional representation yields a multiplicity of "parties" up to some
multiple of the "party acceptance" threshold, as a percentage of the
electorate...

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Wed Nov 26 14:35:35 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 06:35:35 +0800
Subject: The Databasix gang is now harrassing the bureau42 remailer
In-Reply-To: <sL2Rge8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971126164820.10311A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>



Of all the people I would expect to come to my defense... :-)

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[assorted rants about Databasix and huge.cajones.com]
> now they're after on bureau42. For some reason Pomes slipped and cc'd me
> one his false complaints (even though he was ordered not to send me any more

I rather doubt that it was a "slip." It takes at least a little bit of
conscious effort to type in "dlv at bwalk.dm.com".

> e-mail). I ask everyone to
>  a) complain about Paul Pomes to Qualcomm, his employer

And this will have what effect, other than harassing him? If any of the
charges made about Pomes, Burnore, Bryan and friends are true this would be
an astoundingly bad idea. And if the charges aren't true, then we'd be
harassing someone who doesn't deserve to be harassed, which is also bad.

>  b) discuss what we can do to protect bureau42 from Databasix harrassment

Well, I tend to think I'm fairly harassment-proof, but I'm open to
suggestions...

dave

--

Today's pseudorandom quote:
"I have sworn to observe the constitution conscientiously; but what if
my conscience tells me not to observe it?" -- Otto von Bismarck

David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)








From brianbr at together.net  Wed Nov 26 15:22:03 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:22:03 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
Message-ID: <199711262308.SAA17608@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/26/97 5:15 AM, Bill Stewart (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)  passed
this wisdom:

>But then Geiger brings out the other important point:
>>Then what does the sub signature really tell you? Yes you can 
>>verify that the quote was written by someone but it may be taken 
>>completely out of context. How about when several blocks of text 
>>from different messages are combined. Each individual block checks 
>>out but by combining them the text has a completely different 
>>meaning than the original document.  

  I haven't been follwing this thread that closely, but skimming mch
of it and then rereading this whole post, I must concur that the
context issue renders much of the discussion moot unless you can not
only relate individual sub-blocks to the whole message it came from in
the proper order ... it seems to me we are right back where we
started, quoting referenced message(s) in entirety.

  It occurrs to me that if an issue is important enough that the
veracity and autheticity of a given passage is that critical,
including entire messages is of trivial concern. Now it could be
handled by the discussion participant quoting out of context and
'footnoting' his quote with a message ID. The message corresponding to
that ID has its entire text is signed and publicly stored and
accessible. If it needs to be checked then go check it, if not take it
on faith and read on.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNHyqacdZgC62U/gIEQK1cwCeNcgPSOPbXkzORDzB2lZsspiVoHIAoM8z
MSxwS/JTthmm6T+mIzlqzcOn
=2vlT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
   For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr at together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis
   for a system of government."  -- author unknown







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 26 17:33:02 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:33:02 +0800
Subject: BXA denies my administrative appeal
Message-ID: <v0400277eb0a2703ed672@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-cryptography at c2.org using -f
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:05:53 -0500
Comments: This message was remailed by a pseudonymous server.
 The operators have no way to determine the original sender.
 To contact the operator, write to <admin at anon.efga.org>.
From: Miles Vorkosigan <miles_w at anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: BXA denies my administrative appeal
Sender: owner-cryptography at c2.net
To: undisclosed-recipients:;

In message <v03007800b09f865249e2@[172.17.1.150]>, Rick Smith writes:
>
> I recently spoke informally with a couple of sub-Cabinet level officials on
> crypto policy. Their comments indicated that the FBI et al are dominating
> internal meetings on the subject with the same polarizing rhetoric they're
> using in Congress. One official said that he was accused of intentionally
> aiding terrorists at one of these meetings.

During a recent application for crypto export approval, which should have
been routine, we were contacted by an individual from the *FBI* (not from
BXA) who refused our export license because we didn't have a key recovery
system *in place now*. This is despite the facts that:

- the export license was to use our strong cryptography products for
  communications between our international sales offices and head office;
  this used to be a rubber-stamp license, and

- we are in the process of implementing key recovery technology as part of a
  a seperate export approval for our DES-56 products.

I couldn't even get an answer as to why the FBI had jurisdiction over our
export approval.

--
Miles

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 26 17:33:02 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:33:02 +0800
Subject: Hayek Manufactures Freedom...
Message-ID: <v0400278fb0a27398a02f@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:18:41 -0500
Reply-To: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sender: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Greg Ransom <Gregransom at AOL.COM>
Subject:      HAYEKWEB:  J Powel on _The Road to Serfdom_
To: HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

>>  Hayek on the Web  <<

"The Road to Serfdom� Inside story of a 50-year phenomenon"
(by Jim Powell, July 1994), on the Web at:

  http://www.lfb.org/fa7139.html

>From "The Road to Serfdom� Inside story of a 50-year phenomenon"
by Jim Powell:

"This year, much has been written about F.A. Hayek's enormously
influential classic, _The Road to Serfdom_. But until now, no one has
reported the inside story of how a few devoted friends of freedom
helped get the book published in America, despite overwhelming hostility
from publishers and the media.

"Friedrich A. Hayek's The Road to Serfdom," political science professor
 Herman Finer fumed in 1946, reflecting collectivist orthodoxy of the time,
"constitutes the most inopportune offensive against democracy to emerge
from a democratic country for many decades." No doubt about it, _The
Road to Serfdom_ was explosively controversial from the beginning,
especially his case that all forms of collectivism lead to tyranny. The book
was first published a half-century ago in Britain by Routledge, March 1944.
Nobel Prize winning economist Ronald Coase recalls that during Britain's
July 1945 parliamentary election campaign Winston Churchill cited Hayek
in his dramatic campaign speeches, to help show that a Labor Party win
would mean tyranny. Labor Party leader Clement Atlee ridiculed Hayek
and defeated Churchill. Soon afterwards, Atlee began seizing coal, steel,
railroads and other businesses ....

Opposition to Hayek's ideas was fierce in the United States, and a number
of publishers rejected the book. But there were friends of freedom who
worked wonders. Hayek authorized fellow Austrian economist Fritz Machlup,
 then working in Washington, to try to find an American publisher, but he
was unsuccessful. He gave a copy of the Routledge page proofs to
University of Chicago economics professor Aaron Director who met Hayek
in 1943 when both were teaching at the London School of Economics.
Director passed the page proofs to Frank Knight, founding father of the
"Chicago School." Knight apparently gave them to William T. Couch, a
classical liberal friend at the University of Chicago Press which agreed to
publish the book on September 18, 1944. But since nobody expected it
would sell many copies, the initial printing was only 2,000. It was a little
wartime edition about 4-7/8ths by 6-3/4 inches.

To help the book gain a hearing, the publishers asked John Chamberlain,
respected book editor for Harper's magazine and a devout libertarian, to
write a foreword. His name appeared prominently on the cover. The initial
reception was cool. On September 20, 1944, New York Times daily book
reviewer Orville Prescott called it a "sad and angry little book."

But then New York Times economics editorial writer Henry Hazlitt weighed
in with a home run:  a 1,500 word blockbuster review on the front page of
the Sunday New York Times Book Review, September 24, 1944. Hazlitt
declared that "Friedrich Hayek has written one of the most important books
of our generation." The University of Chicago Press ordered another
printing. The book sold 22,000 copies by year-end and sold this much
again by spring 1945.

Meanwhile, Reader's Digest editors DeWitt and Lila Acheson Wallace
expressed interest in publishing an excerpt from the book, and the
University of Chicago Press, eager to reach a popular audience, seems
to have given away those rights for nothing�Hayek later remarked
he never got a penny. In any case, The Road to Serfdom filled the first
20 pages of the April 1945 Reader's Digest under a banner headline drawn
 from Hazlitt's review: "One of the Most Important Books of Our Generation."
This brought Hayek's story to about 8 million people in the U.S. alone.
Subsequently, Book-of-the-Month Club distributed some 600,000 copies
of a condensed edition.

Sales records are incomplete, but there were a good many more printings
after that, and the book eventually sold at least 230,000 copies in the U.S.
Hayek went on a U.S. lecture tour, including prestigious places like Harvard
University, and he decided he rather liked being a lightning rod for freedom.

He expressed his views in popular publications like the Chicago Sun, Boston
Traveler and New York Times Magazine. He met many friends of freedom
with whom he was to collaborate in later years. Three dozen friends joined
him to found the international Mont Pelerin Society.
...

Today people around the world appreciate Hayek's profound truths
which seemed so shocking half-century ago. We at Laissez Faire
are proud to help distribute it in several dozen countries ...

Contents:
Introduction
1. The Abandoned Road
2. The Great Utopia
3. Individualism and Collectivism
4. The "Inevitability" of Planning
5. Planning and Democracy
6. Planning and the Rule of Law
7. Economic Control and Totalitarianism
8. Who, Whom?
9. Security and Freedom
10. Why the Worst Get on Top
11. The End of Truth
12. The Socialist Roots of Naziism
13. The Totalitarians in Our Midst
14. Material Conditions and Ideal Ends
15. The Prospects of International Order
16. Conclusion

 FA7139W The Road to Serfdom (paperback) 248p. $10.95"



Hayek on the Web is a regular feature of the Hayek-L list.


>>  END  <<

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 26 17:36:54 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:36:54 +0800
Subject: Laissez Faire Books - Hayek catalogue
Message-ID: <v04002791b0a273e7b2a5@[139.167.130.248]>




--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:09:27 -0500
Reply-To: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sender: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Greg Ransom <Gregransom at AOL.COM>
Subject:      HAYEKWEB: Laissez Faire Books - Hayek catalogue
To: HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

>>  Hayek on the Web  <<

Laissez Faire Books -- Books by or about F. A. Hayek,
on the web at:

  http://www.lfb.org/hayek.html


>From the section 'F. A. Hayek':

"THE ROAD TO SERFDOM
by F.A. Hayek

The classic warning of the dangers of government interventionism, it
shows why state planning always undermines both political and
economic freedom. It had a tremendous influence in the years after
World War II.
 FA7139W The Road to Serfdom (paperback) 248p. $10.95


THE ESSENCE OF HAYEK
edited by Chiaki Nichiyama and Kurt Leube

How can a busy reader get a handle on such a prolific mind as that
of F.A. Hayek? Here is a selection of essays representing the full range
of his thought, drawn by two eminent Hayek scholars from the full body
of his published writings.
 FA0118W The Essence of Hayek (paperback) 419p. $22.95


THE ECONOMICS OF FRIEDRICH HAYEK
by G.R. Steele
(St. Martin's Press, 1993/revised 1996)

If one were to read only one book about Hayek, this should be it. Rather
than criticizing Hayek's work, Steele aims to present an account of Hayek's
work that is both comprehensive and concise. In this aim the author
succeeds most admirably �Karen I. Vaughn, Journal of Economic Literature
 FA7117W The Economics of F.A. Hayek (hardcover) 262p. $19.95


HAYEK AND AFTER
Hayekian Liberalism as a Research Programme
by Jeremy Shearmur

Shearmur, who worked with philosopher Karl Popper and now teaches
at the Australian National University, chronicles Hayek's amazing
intellectual journey. He excels at describing how Hayek's ideas evolved
over the years, talking about the striking transition from Hayek's early
writings to his later writings on legal issues, the conflicts between Hayek's
utilitarian views and his moral imperative for liberty, and he offers
insightful comments about how Hayek grew more conservative in some ways, more
libertarian in others.
 FA7060W Hayek and After (hardcover) 257p. Published at $65.00
LF PRICE ONLY $24.95


HAYEK ON HAYEK
edited by Stephen Kresge and Leif Wenar

Hayek himself tells the story of his long and controversial career through
previously unpublished autobiographical notes and interviews.
"The appeal of Hayek on Hayek, I readily admit, is all the gossip in it.
Of course, since much of it is old gossip, and about famous people, it
qualifies as history. But it is not the kind of history professors dole out
to their students."
�Timothy Virkkala, Liberty
 FA6072W Hayek on Hayek (hardcover) 187p. $27.50


HAYEK: CO-ORDINATION AND EVOLUTION
His Legacy in Philosophy, Politics, Economics and the History of Ideas
edited by Jack Birner and Rudy van Zijp

This book assesses Hayek's wondrous intellectual achievements.
Roger Garrison, Gerald O'Driscoll, Norman Barry, Jeremy Shearmur,
and a host of others examine and illuminate Hayek's views on why
bureaucrats cannot produce prosperity, why socialism suppresses liberty,
what drives business cycles, the dynamics of money, how social
institutions develop spontaneously, and a constitutional order to protect
privacy and liberty.
 FA5979W Hayek: Coordination and Evolution (hardcover) 372p. Published at
$65.00
LF PRICE ONLY $24.95


CONTENDING WITH HAYEK
edited by Christoph Frei and Robert Nef

Here a group of noted European and American scholars debate
F.A. Hayek's most important ideas about a free society. John Gray,
Hans- Hermann Hoppe, Anthony de Jasay and more focus
on Hayek's social, political and legal philosophy, sometimes taking
issue with each other on major questions as well as fine points.
 FA6342W Contending with Hayek (paperback) 228p. Published at $33.95
LF PRICE ONLY $24.95


THE IDEAS OF F.A. HAYEK
narrated by Brian Crowley

These audio tapes are probably the best introduction to the life
and thought of F.A. Hayek that we're likely to get our hands on.
The format for the tapes is a simple one: it is a two-part, two-hour
radio documentary on Hayek produced for the Canadian Broadcasting
Company. The narrator, Brian Crowley, introduces Hayek's life and
ideas, and provides the continuity for the tapes.
 FA5452W The Ideas of F.A. Hayek (2 audiotapes) 2 hrs. $21.95


HAYEK, FREEDOM'S PHILOSOPHER
written & produced by Eben Wilson

While there are many great books on liberty, video material is hard
to come by. This splendid three-part video series helps you better
understand and explain his ideas which are changing the world for the
 better.
 FA6326W Hayek, Freedom's Philosopher (VHS video) 110 min. $49.95



HAYEK, THE IRON CAGE OF LIBERTY
by Andrew Gamble

Why did classical liberalism lose its appeal just as it triumphed? How
did socialists convince large numbers of people that they were legitimate
heirs to the glorious liberal tradition? Why did socialists "win" the debate
about economic calculation? What was the link between socialism and
Nazism? Why, having dismissed Hayek decades ago, do some socialists
(they are still plenty lurking around) now turn to him as an idea man for the
makeover they dream about?

Gamble, a socialist professor of politics at the University of Sheffield,
aims to answer these and many others questions as he reviews Hayek's
 prolific career and help put it in historical context.  He's often annoying,

because he never concedes the catastrophe of socialism, but he does do
a good job of summarizing Hayek's views, he raises provocative issues,
and he provides a picture of a sophisticated adversary wrestling with
classical liberal ideas. In the process, he helps show how far we've come
and how much farther we have to go. If we are to win the intellectual debates
ahead, we must clearly understand what our adversaries are thinking.
 FA7381W Hayek, the Iron Cage of Liberty (paperback) 221p. $19.95"


Hayek on the Web is a regular feature of the Hayek-L list.



>>  END  <<

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov 26 17:37:44 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:37:44 +0800
Subject: Minsky Manufactures Privacy...
Message-ID: <v0400278db0a273148101@[139.167.130.248]>



Somewhere in the bowels of an active location transponder discussion on the
wearables list...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: minsky at mailhub.media.mit.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:29:19 -0500
To: wearables at media.mit.edu
From: Marvin Minsky <minsky at media.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: location vs. tracking

 "David P. Reed" <dpreed at reed.com> worries:

>[they can use active tracking of you] for various 'public benefits' (such as
antiterrorism, antipedophilia, anti-anti-gov't thinking, and monitoring any
personal, non-business interactions, among employees. )

Did you mean to include antiterrorism?

>There's always a plausible reason that can be used to override
>whatever privacy policies and safeguards are designed into such a system.

If the reasons really are plausible, then those overrides should be added
to the system design.

>It's sad that our public institutions now tend to view everyone as a
>potentially evil person...

Do you mean all public institutions?

Perhaps, instead, we should try to design tracking systems that include
public review mechanisms -- so that whenever anyone (e.g., your employer)
accesses your record against the privacy policy, they'll be subject to
legal sanctions and damages.

The issues of privacy are pretty complicated: for example, if someone has
been furtively following you, some future technology might permit you to
authorize someone you trust to find out who it is.  Ed Fredkin once asked a
number of people how they would feel about a new device with which you
could select almost anyone in the world, and make the device produce a loud
noise near them.  They all objected angrily.  Then Ed said, "It already
exists.  It's called the telephone."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 26 19:38:05 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:38:05 +0800
Subject: DaBORG
Message-ID: <NEDKKHLACLEKDAAA@mailexcite.com>



I am James T. Kirk of Borg.  You will be assimil..... ated.
I am John-Boy of Borg.  G'night, Hugh! G'night, Lore! G'night, Data!
I am Kira of Borg.  Wanna make something out of it??!!!!
I am Kojak of Borg.  Who loves to assimilate ya, baby.
I am Ginsu of Borg.  You WILL be ASSIMILATED, but wait! That's not all!
I am Hamlet, prince of Borg!  Prepare to be...or not to be...
I am Haskell of Borg.  You resist well, Mrs. Cleaver.
I am Lancelot of Borg.  Resistance is feudal.
I am Lennon of Borg.  Imagine there's no assimilation...
I am Baez of Borg.  What if we gave an assimilation and nobody came?
I am Mr. Rogers of Borg.  Won't you be assimilated with me?
I am Barney of Borg.  Love is irrelevant, boys and girls...
I am Odo of Borg.  Look! Now I'm a Cylon.  No, now I'm a...
I am Opie of Borg.  Can I assimilate 'em, Pa?
I am Oprah of Borg. So, why did you assimilate your husband?
I am Quayle of Borg.  Speling is irelevante.
I am Ronald Reagan of Borg.  Prepare to be ... uh, I don't recall.
I am Rush Limbaugh of Borg.  That's a scary thought, eh?
I am Scooby of Borg.  Reware roo re arrimirated, Raggy!
I am Obi Wan of Borg.  The Force is with me, so killing me is futile.
I am Skywalker of Borg.  So, Ben, do we really want to assimilate Hoth?
I am Smiley Face of Borg.  Nice days are irrelevant.  [:-|
I am Smorgas of Borg.  You will be marinated.
I am Clinton of Borg.  You will not really be assimilated, exactly...
I am Janet Reno of Borg.  Resisters will be barbecued.  Waco is irrelevant.
I am Stephanopolous of Borg.  It's not assimilation, it's diversity...
I am Eastwood of Borg.  Do you feel lucky, Earthpunks?  Make my day.
I am Fonda of Borg.  After assimilation, you will have Buns of Steel.
I am Madonna of Borg.  Resistance turns me on.
I am Beavis of Borg.  Assimilation is cool, gonna score, heheheheheh...
I am Butt-head of Borg.  Scoring is irrelevant, asswipe!



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From woodwose at mailexcite.com  Wed Nov 26 19:43:48 1997
From: woodwose at mailexcite.com (Benjamin Chad Wienke)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:43:48 +0800
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <DFIBLIDNKAFKDAAA@mailexcite.com>



At 07:33 PM 11/26/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>In message <v03007800b09f865249e2@[172.17.1.150]>, Rick Smith writes:
>>
>> I recently spoke informally with a couple of sub-Cabinet level officials
on
>> crypto policy. Their comments indicated that the FBI et al are
dominating
>> internal meetings on the subject with the same polarizing rhetoric
they're
>> using in Congress. One official said that he was accused of
intentionally
>> aiding terrorists at one of these meetings.
>
>During a recent application for crypto export approval, which should have

>been routine, we were contacted by an individual from the *FBI* (not from
>BXA) who refused our export license because we didn't have a key recovery
>system *in place now*. This is despite the facts that:
>
>- the export license was to use our strong cryptography products for
>  communications between our international sales offices and head office;
>  this used to be a rubber-stamp license, and
>
>- we are in the process of implementing key recovery technology as part of a
>  a seperate export approval for our DES-56 products.
>
>I couldn't even get an answer as to why the FBI had jurisdiction over our
>export approval.

I guess the FBI has decided that it is going to be the secret police when
the time comes. (And I had been thinking it was going to be the ATF!) I
wonder if they could be egged into a turf war amongst themselves--if they
are fighting each other, they have less time and energy to fuck with us...



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com






From 89352555 at aol.com  Thu Nov 27 12:52:42 1997
From: 89352555 at aol.com (89352555 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:52:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Earn Money Shopping
Message-ID: <71428845.UYT88901@1150shopping.com>


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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Nov 26 21:00:03 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:00:03 +0800
Subject: Let's pay for online policing [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711270504.XAA25039@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

>    November 26, 1997: 2:33 p.m. ET

>    European Commission
>    
>    European Union
>    More related sites... BRUSSELS, Belgium (Reuters) - The European
>    Commission proposed Wednesday setting aside money for measures to help
>    keep illegal and harmful material off the Internet.
>    [INLINE] Continuing its push for industry self-regulation of the
>    global computer network, the commission said the European Union should
>    help set up a pan-European network of telephone hot lines to take
>    complaints about illegal items.

[material deleted]






From cnn at dev.null  Wed Nov 26 21:05:30 1997
From: cnn at dev.null (CNN)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:05:30 +0800
Subject: And the turkey you wrote in on...
In-Reply-To: <199710260417.VAA05536@gw.quake.net>
Message-ID: <347CF916.7DD@dev.null>



~	COOKING THE NEWS-TURKEY'S GOOSE
~	-------------------------------

[CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS: Bienfait, Saskatchewan] VIN SUPRYNOWICZ, A HUMOR
columnist known for his work for the Las Vegas Review-Journal and his
syndicated column, THE LIBERTARIAN, distributed via Mountain Media 
Syndications, had his journalascist colleagues and fellow reportwhores
rolling in the first-class aisles with a delightfully delicious
Dec. 3rd roasting, titled "All the News that Goes Our Way."

Suprynowicz, who managed to spell his unwieldy name right throughout
most of the column, wrote:
   "...in real life, how well do reporters ignore their own prejudices 
and preconceptions, when the populace starts moving en masse in the 
opposite direction from what the newshound and his social circle 
expected, predicted, or would prefer?"
...
  "Readers and viewers of the nation's most influential newspapers and
broadcasts could be forgiven if, this fall, they got the impression the
upcoming vote on Washington state's Initiative 676 was likely to be 
pretty darned important."

  "Placed on the ballot by those wishing to restrict firearms ownership
by potential victims (commonly called "gun control" advocates, though 
they never seem to call for any new "controls" on government snipers),
the measure would have mandated a statewide civilian gun-licensing 
system, trigger locks on guns (always useful when a woman is fumbling 
in her purse while being grabbed by a would-be rapist), and expensive,
mandatory government safety-training courses ... always useful in 
discouraging law-abiding racial minorities from legally carrying 
firearms."

  "Early polls showed the initiative leading, 60-to-30, with women 
favoring this new nest of red tape by an even more lopsided 80-20."

Vinegarous Vinnie prepared the targets of his barbed wit by basting
them in the juices of their own half-baked body of badly bloated
blathering which trumpeted their proclaimation of the importance 
and significance of the upcoming gun-battle.

  "With those numbers in hand, The New York Times ran an account of the
initiative on its front page Oct. 13, suggesting it would be a 
significant test of the strength of the nation's largest gun rights 
lobbying group, the National Rifle Association (NRA.)"

  "'For the gun lobby, there is no bigger battle in 1997,' wrote 
Timesman Timothy Egan."

  "Three days later, on Oct. 16, 'NBC Nightly News' anchorman Tom 
Brokaw covered the pending vote as a major watershed: 'Here in the 
state of Washington, the front lines have been drawn in the deadly 
battle over gun control. It started in the grass roots as anger 
exploded over the hundreds of children in this state killed or hurt 
by guns. It's now a full-blown political war.'"

Suprynowicz, ever ready to expose the naked truth which his peers
attempt to disguise by burying it in the glitteringly clothed
trappings of authority, pomposity and hi-tech grandstanding, shoots
holes (pardon the pun) in Broke-haw-haw's clever variation on,
"if it saves the life of a single (DRUG-DEALING, OLD ENOUGH TO
VOTE) child...", and stuffs the holes with facts, like:

  "As ever, the 'children' named in such statistics turn out to include
18-year-old drug dealers shooting each other in turf battles -- a fine
point Mr. Brokaw apparently didn't have time to explain."

Suprynowicz then turns up the heat by adding the word-logs of other
mainstream news sources to the fire.

  "In such lopsided media coverage, 'all that was missing was a slick 
TV graphic showing the NRA's coffin nailed shut,' L. Brent Bozell III 
and Tim Graham of the Northern Virginia-based Media Research Center 
wrote on the editorial page of the Nov. 21 Wall Street Journal."

  "'But something went wrong on the way to the funeral.' On election 
day 'A walloping 71 percent of Washington voters rejected the measure,'
Messrs. Bozell and Graham report."

Vinnie the Vamp sucks the blood out of the mainstream media's rosy
cheeks by pointing out how rapidly the vital juices flowed out of
the previously proclaimed 'Mother of all Gun Law Battles' once the
voters had poked it with their forks.

  "Suddenly, mysteriously, a story which editors and producers had been
gearing up to banner as a death blow to the hated NRA, "became an
afterthought on the networks the next day. ... ABC's morning and 
evening news shows gave the results only brief mention, simply stating
that the measure failed. ... The New York Times put the blame on the 
NRA's cash advantage and the gun controllers' poor strategy -- and 
buried the story on page A28."

The New York Times didn't go into any detail as to how the NRA had
managed to gain a "cash advantage" over a group of well established
opponents who had the financial support of the richest man in the
world.

Suprynowicz continues:

  "Where were the banner headlines, declaring 'Huge majority say "No 
more gun laws' in crucial test', Or 'Finally, Bill of Rights supporters
win one for the Gipper'?"

  "There were none."

Which rhymes with 'done'...
Which brings us back to the 'news-turkeys'...

  "These so-called "news" outfits have some serious soul-searching to
do when they can eagerly promote such a test vote as highly significant
so long as it appears to be going their way, but suddenly -- days later
-- shrug off the result as meaningless, when the voters' decision fails
to match their own pro-government, anti-freedom agenda.

Way to go, Vinnie. I'm sure that your mainstream pen-pals are
chuckling all the way to the bank as they spend their Thanksgiving
weekend gobbling up the rewards of providing the public with all
the news that's shit to stink.
Using their own words to expose the 'before and after' reality of
the mainstream media's shallow lack of journalistic integrity brings
new meaning to the words, "self-basting turkey."

It's nice to know that there are still a few flesh-eaters left in the
field of journalism who recognize the that cannibalism is just as
anarchistically proper as cross-species carnivorism. (And that the 
flesh of the Nutless News mainstream media tastes good to readers who
are tired of being fed the same old spoon-fed crap.)

		---------		--------

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin at lvrj.com. The
column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.

***

Vin Suprynowicz,   vin at lvrj.com

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in 
peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand
that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity
forget that ye were our countrymen."    -- Samuel Adams






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov 26 21:47:20 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:47:20 +0800
Subject: Moderated vs. Unmoderated Lists
Message-ID: <199711270525.GAA01200@basement.replay.com>



The issue is not moderation.  It is whether this list has a focus, a
central set of ideas, a reason for existence.  If we're just going to
talk about whatever anyone finds interesting, there is nothing to stop
the list from drifting away from its goals.

In fact, that is exactly what has happened.  Tim May's violent rhetoric
has attracted others who believe in violence.  Vulis's racist and sexist
comments have brought other members who are comfortable expressing
negative comments about other races and nationalities.  There is little
discussion about cryptography any more.

Tim May:

>This has crypto anarchy relevance in that strong crypto will undermine the
>ability of the U.S. government to fight foreign wars and engange in foreign
>entanglements. How this will happen should be obvious.

What difference does it make whether it has crypto anarchy relevance?
No one cares about that any more.  The only thing that matters today
is whether it includes crypto racism, or crypto terrorism, or crypto
white supremacy.

> Yes, I talk about what interests me. A single essay I _write_ represents my
> views. I avoid cc:ing the list with forwarded stuff from Yahoo, as some are
> wont to do.
>
> Thus, I feel no guilt about writing some essay or article on something of
> interest to me.

Writing off-topic essays isn't the problem.  Posting them here is.  Why
don't you use alt.fan.oj-simpson for your racist rants like you used to?






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Nov 26 22:04:05 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:04:05 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711240521.XAA10697@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Vq7sge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



This has little crypto relevance (unless someone drags in the fact that
some of the important ww2 naval battles were won by the us because they
broke jap codes).

Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:
> Japan beat the shit out of Russia in 1903. Had it not been for Richard
> Sorge's intelligence of the situation in 1938 around Chankufeng Hill at
> Vladivostok indicating the Japanese governments committment to keep the
> situation from becoming a declared war and Georgi Zukhov at Khalkin Gol in
> 1939 the Japs would have beaten them then as well. In both situations Stalin
> was up against the wall.

In 1904/5 (what's a couple of years between punks) the japs beat the shit out
of the tzar, not Stalin, because of the tzarist army's supreme incompetence,
and also because of severe internal unrest in Russia (general strikes and
uprisings everywhere).

Prior to that, the japs effectively beat Russia in 1875(?). You may recall
that prior to the meiji revolution, the japs considered hokkaido a foreign
territory; there were no japs living there, and any jap who ventured there
was supposed to be put to death. Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and the Kuril islands
were inhabited by the Ainus (most of whom were baptized by Russian Orthodox
missionaries in 18th century), and a few cossack settlers and missionaries
from alaska. After the meiji revolution, the japs invaded Hokkaido and
massacred the ainus and the cossacks. In 1875 they told the Russians that
they consider all of {Hokkaido, Kurils, Sakhalin} to be a part of Japan and
not a "foreign land forbidden to japs". In order to avoid a war, the Russians
bent over and let the japs have Hokkaido and some of the Kurils, but held on
to Sakhalin and the northern Kurils.

By the treaty of Portsmouth in 1905, Russia further ceded to Japan the rest
of the Kurils, half of Sakhalin (south of the 50th parallel), and most of
Russian extensive interests in China and Korea. (Russia had serious influence
in Korea prior to the war; the Japs outright annexed in in 1910). Although
Russia was pretty much beaten militarily, it probably could have negotiated
better peace terms if it didn't have to deal with the severe unrest, forcing
it to stop the hostilities ASAP.

In general, Russia's attempts at Pacific expansionism in 19th century
were all failures. They got kicked out of northern california (fort ross);
sold (leased?) Alaska (seward's folly) to the US for almost nothing; tried
and failed to grab Hawaii and a chunk of New Guinea; and ended up with
no territories there, when every European country grabbed some.

The japs occupied big chunks of Russian Far East during the revolution and
civil war (1918-24). My recollection is that they went as far West as Chita
and Lake Baikal; and it took the Soviets until 1924 to convince them to leave
Vladivostok.

As for 1938, I tend to believe that there was some truth to Stalin's
assertion that Marshal Blyukher &co were plotting to sedede from the USSR and
to form an independent "Far Eastern Republic" (like the political entity
that got merged into the RSFSR in 1924 after the Japs left) and to invite
the japs to protect their sovereignty. Stalin sent Mekhlis to the Far
East, who executed Blyukher and _most of the Red Army commanders (officers)
in the region.

At lake Khasan (near the short Soviet-Korean border) the Japs demanded
(July/August, 1938) that the Soviets turn over some strategic hills, which
would have made a future attack on Vladivostok easier.  Then the japs
just sent some troops to occupy the hills; it took the Soviets almost 2
weeks to re-take them, which can be explained both by their incompetence
and by Blyukher working for the japs. Jap casualties were 650 dead and
2500 woulnded.

Jap casualties were much higher at Khalkhin Gol. Strategically, the Japs were
trying to occupy a chunk of Mongolia that would allow them to cut off the
only railroad linking the Soviet far east with the rest of Siberia (which
passes right next to the Chinese border). The japs were bombarding the
disputed area of Mongolia in January-April 1939; invaded in May, and were
kicked out by the Soviet troops, led by Zhukov (note the correct spelling)
in late August. Their casualties were 55K, 25K of which were killed.

Another little-known fact: during this timeframe, Stalin rounded up all
the ethnic chinese and koreans from the Soviet far east and resettled
them in Kazakhstan (as he did to many other etyhnic groups a few years
later).

> In 1938 there are clear indications that instead of
> counter-attacking he might very well have sued for peace and in the process
> lost the port at Vladivostok. Had the Japanese re-inforced their army they
> could have beaten the Russian troops available. Considering the lack of
> roads and rail in that part of Russia it is unrealistic to expect
> reinforcements to have arrived from Russia in a meaningful time frame
> without recognizing the contribution Japans hesitancy in getting into a
> conflict with Russia and Richard Sorge's clandestine intelligence
> contributed. Had either one of those not been present then Russia would have
> been eaten in little gobbles from the east and west.

That's why the japs tried so hard to cut off the railroad link in 1939...
They recognized that they could have occupied Vladivostok in 1938 if
they had really tried; but eventually Russian reinforcements would
come and there would be hell to pay. Stalin demonstrated that unlike the
tzars he was willing to put up a fight over this relatively worthless
real estate.

> Had it not been for the oil, food, and weapons we shipped Britian he would
> have owned Europe in toto. It is clear from Hitlers earliest writings that
> he had full intention of taking Russia. Had Stalin not had Sorge's
> intelligence regarding the Japanese's intent not to attack Russia at that
> time he would not have been able to pull troops from that front. Had those
> troops not been pulled then both Moscow and Stalingrad *would* have fallen.
> If Moscow fell Stalin fell.

Technically speaking, Moscow did fall. :-) By Oct 16, 1941, everyone and
everything were evacuated from Moscow, down to Lenin's mummy, and the Germans
could have walked in if they wanted to. The Germans chose not to march in
because they feared mines and booby traps they encountered earlier in Kiev
(probably correct, too). While they waffled, Russian reinforcements arrived
from Siberia and drove them off.

> Mussolini may not have been fond of Hitler but he certainly admired and
> respected the man, or at least that is what Ciano's diaries indicate.
> Mussolini's explorations in Africa were a result of an attempt on his part
> to gain respect in Hitlers eyes.

Mussolini's bloody invasion of Ethiopia was mostly a revenge for the
previous invasion by Italy which ended in a humiliating defeat.

I'd venture to say that other Hitler allies (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria)
viewed him as a lesser eveil and didn't like him at all.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Nov 26 22:07:29 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:07:29 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711241431.IAA12181@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a80sge15w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



This has no crypto relevance.

Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> further writes:
<a bunch of historical facts>
> So the time line is something like this:
>
> 15 months prior to Pearl Harbor the US places an embargo on Japan presumably
> because of their aggressive policies.
>
> 13 months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor the Japanese sign the
> Tri-partite Act.
>
> 12 months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor the Emporer gets cold feet
> and orders a review of the plan.

The japs didn't join the axis out fo the blue. The US was picking on the Japs
back at the Washington conference in 1921/2, and succeffully turned the
British against the japs (they used to be allies). Ever since FDR got elected,
he bulding up the navy, building new bases on Hawaii, Guam, Midway, Samoa,
etc, (in violation of the Washington conference), grabbing small pacific
islands that no one claimed before (jervis, Howland, Phoebe, Palmira). On June
26, 1939 the US denounced the US-jap trade treaty (in response to the
Chamberlain-Arita agreement of June 24 to curtail british aid to Chiang). In
September 1940 FDR introduced the draft (that was priot to the Japs signing
the axis treaty on Sept 27). After 9/29, the US cut off iron shipments to
japan, oredered US citizens to leave Japan and its possessions, drafted 27K
reservists into the navy, and gave chiang a 25MM loan. On Nov 30 the US again
said that Chiang is the only lawful government of China and gave him another
100MM. The japs heavily negotiated for 7 months; then on July 25, 1941, FDR
froze jap assets in the US. Nevertheless in November the japs asked to resume
negotiations, and asked primarily to lift the oil embargo. On 11/26 the US
rejected this request, and called on japan to recognize chiang as the ruler of
china. On 12/6 FDR sent an threatning personal message to Hirohito telling him
to back down. On 12/7 the japs attacked Pearl Harbor and simulteneously
rejected the 11/26 demands (viewing them as an effective declaration of war by
the US). My intrepretation is that the japs certainly tried to bend over
backwards to delay a war with the US until they were in a better position, and
FDR certainly did all hsi could to hasten the war.

> Note, I would appreciate any references to the regulation of Japanese
> nationals transiting through or applying for residence in the US during this
> period. Can't say that I've ever seen this issue in anything I've read.

According to my books, the US stopped all Jap immigration into US and its
possession (i.e. Hawaii, Philippines, ec) as of May 1, 1925.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Wed Nov 26 22:22:02 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:22:02 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971126091941.007d5df0@206.40.207.40>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971127155241.161A-100000@shirley>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, David Honig wrote:

[...]

> At 09:04 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Glenn Hauman wrote:

> >Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
> >after Microsoft? By who?
> >
> 
> The secret MS hack which disables OS's running under .gov domains when the 
> right signal is given :-) :-)

There is a secret hack that crashes MS OS's?  Um,  is there one that
actuly makes them work?


- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 26 22:30:49 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:30:49 +0800
Subject: Moderated vs. Unmoderated Lists
In-Reply-To: <199711270525.GAA01200@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711270625.BAA08154@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711270525.GAA01200 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/27/97 
   at 12:25 AM, Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> said:

>The issue is not moderation.  It is whether this list has a focus, a
>central set of ideas, a reason for existence.  If we're just going to
>talk about whatever anyone finds interesting, there is nothing to stop
>the list from drifting away from its goals.

>In fact, that is exactly what has happened.  Tim May's violent rhetoric
>has attracted others who believe in violence.  Vulis's racist and sexist
>comments have brought other members who are comfortable expressing
>negative comments about other races and nationalities.  There is little
>discussion about cryptography any more.

Well you are always free to take your CENSOROUS ASS and create your own
list. Then you and your friends can hold hands and only think Pure
Thoughts(TM).

Make no mistake here Mr Anonymous is a CENSOR!! He wishes to be able to
SILENCE anyone who says anything that does not fit his obPoliticalyCorret
views of the world.

Dec 7th is comming up, Lets Nuke Japan Again just for the hell of it!!!

Lets see how many more of these wantabe nazi I can flush out with that one
:)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 26 22:45:07 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:45:07 +0800
Subject: (No Subject)
In-Reply-To: <DFIBLIDNKAFKDAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <199711270635.BAA08266@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <DFIBLIDNKAFKDAAA at mailexcite.com>, on 11/26/97 
   at 09:34 PM, "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose at mailexcite.com> said:

>I guess the FBI has decided that it is going to be the secret police when
>the time comes. (And I had been thinking it was going to be the ATF!) I
>wonder if they could be egged into a turf war amongst themselves--if they
>are fighting each other, they have less time and energy to fuck with
>us...

No the turf war woun't start until they have eliminated all external
opponents. Once that is done then things will start to really heat up
between BATF, FBI, CIA, Pentagon, et al.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Nov 26 23:04:19 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:04:19 +0800
Subject: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971126091941.007d5df0@206.40.207.40>
Message-ID: <199711270645.BAA08346@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.5.32.19971126091941.007d5df0 at 206.40.207.40>, on 11/26/97 
   at 12:19 PM, David Honig <honig at otc.net> said:

>At 09:04 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>>At 12:40 PM -0500 11/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>
>>Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
>>after Microsoft? By who?
>>

>The secret MS hack which disables OS's running under .gov domains when
>the  right signal is given :-) :-)

Well that now explains why systems running M$ OS's have to be rebooted
several times a day. And I thought it was because they wouldn't know QA if
it bit them in the ass.

Tha dam hackers have the code and are fucking with everyones system!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov 26 23:48:51 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:48:51 +0800
Subject: telnetd/sshd for NT Alpha?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971127084015.26647A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



I am looking for a *stable* telnetd or sshd for NT Alpha. Free if
possible, commercial if need be.

Thanks,

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:20:37 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:20:37 +0800
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971126215102.25919A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <347D049E.31F0@dev.null>



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> Who the hell cares about a Togo travel advisory? What's next? The Miami
> weather forecast?

  Lucky is just jealous because Togo named their country with more
concise alphabetic code than Tonga.

TruthMonger







From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:23:28 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:23:28 +0800
Subject: Government crypto views prove justified... / Re: Swedish policy paper on key/message escrow
In-Reply-To: <v03010d04b0a0c586c472@[17.202.40.158]>
Message-ID: <347D3BCE.3554@dev.null>



Martin Minow wrote:
> 
> Today's "Svenska Dagbladet" has an article on a policy paper released
> by the Swedish Foreign Office that follows the American agenda. "Only
> simple encryption that is easy to decypher should be sold outside the
> country without restriction." 

See? Even other countries are agreeing that crypto is munitions.
  i.e. - They all want to sell versions of their 'old stuff' to people
in other countries, so that Big Violent People can continue to profit
off of, support and encourage Little Violent People.

Anybody know any Drug Barons or International Terrorists (TM) who 
can't get themselves and their lackeys all of the firepower they 
require to 'take care of business'?
Anyone think crypto-munitions will not follow the same pattern of
being taken out of the hands of hands of the 'potential drug baron
and international terroist' average citizens, and reserved for
those who have self-actualized their dreams and actually _become_
drug barons and international terrorists?

Government oppressed free-enterprise at it's finest...

TruthMonger







From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:24:46 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:24:46 +0800
Subject: BXA denies my administrative appeal
In-Reply-To: <v0400277eb0a2703ed672@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <347D0A2C.1F69@dev.null>



From: Miles Vorkosigan <miles_w at anon.efga.org>

> I recently spoke informally with a couple of sub-Cabinet level officials on
> crypto policy. Their comments indicated that the FBI et al are dominating
> internal meetings on the subject with the same polarizing rhetoric they're
> using in Congress. One official said that he was accused of intentionally
> aiding terrorists at one of these meetings.

Good to see that Freedom of Speech is being suppressed by threats of
harassment and imprisonment at the highest levels, not just among the
peons. Perhaps this could be legislated in an 'Equal Loss of Rights'
amendment.

> I couldn't even get an answer as to why the FBI had jurisdiction over our
> export approval.

Uuhhh...because LEA Fascists are now running our 'Democracy'?

TruthMonger







From cp at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:28:57 1997
From: cp at dev.null (CypherPunks Press)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:28:57 +0800
Subject: I'm from the government, and I'm here to give your children food poisoning...
Message-ID: <347D4F36.61D1@dev.null>



* Reports surfaced in July from San Francisco social-service
organizations that poor kids who participated in a summer lunch
program were being served moldy green bologna in sandwiches (for
many of the kids, their main meal of the day).  According to Dr.
Johnson Ojo, the Health Department's principal inspector, what he
saw while investigating the complaints was "not that bad," and
anyway, moldy bologna will not cause food poisoning. 

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From cp at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:29:41 1997
From: cp at dev.null (CypherPunks Press)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:29:41 +0800
Subject: If it protects just a single child...
Message-ID: <347D4FDA.5732@dev.null>



* John E. Herndon, at his May sentencing (he got 20 years) in Little
Rock, Ark., for using two teenage girls in pornographic photos
after giving them alcoholic beverages:  "They were my muffins and
my flowers," he told the judge.  "They were earth angels.  I renew
my promises to the girls as a born-again Christian that I will always
love them and protect them." 

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 Send a message to notw-request at nine.org with the
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From cp at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:29:57 1997
From: cp at dev.null (CypherPunks Press)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:29:57 +0800
Subject: Reason behind ASCII art drought...
Message-ID: <347D4DCD.1502@dev.null>



* New York City special-effects artist Matt McMullen, 28, has
been offering his lifesize, authentically detailed, steel-skeletoned,
silicone dolls, under the name "Real Dolls," for several months on
the Internet, for around $4,000 each plus options.  So far, Stacy,
Natasha, Nina, and Leah are available, with choice of hair color,
skin color, and height (either "supermodel" or short and
voluptuous).  His original doll was intended as sculpture until lonely
men bombarded him with price inquiries.  Said McMullen, "There is
no way this can compete with the real thing, but it can fill a deep
void in someone's life." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Send a message to notw-request at nine.org with the
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To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
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(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
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From cp at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:33:27 1997
From: cp at dev.null (CypherPunks Press)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:33:27 +0800
Subject: But you can get them free, from the government...
Message-ID: <347D512B.4D54@dev.null>



* The Times of London reported in August that the California firm
Interval Research has developed a prototype for a new wristwatch
that would be worn not on the wrist but in the wrist.  A liquid
crystal display, microchip, and battery would be implanted under
the skin, close enough to the surface so that the time would be
readable.  Battery-recharging and time-zone changes would be done
by remote control. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Send a message to notw-request at nine.org with the
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To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)







From cp at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:34:28 1997
From: cp at dev.null (CypherPunks Press)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:34:28 +0800
Subject: Ma May
Message-ID: <347D535A.48A1@dev.null>



* In August in Leesburg, Fla., a 28-year-old woman, in the midst of
a domestic quarrel with her husband, 29, ordered the couple's two
kids, ages 6 and 8, to shoot their father with their BB guns.  The
kids complied, resulting in five chest wounds, one arm wound, and
one cheek wound.  The woman is a dispatcher for the Leesburg
Police Department.






From cp at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:34:30 1997
From: cp at dev.null (CypherPunks Press)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:34:30 +0800
Subject: Ma Bell
Message-ID: <347D530B.6B10@dev.null>



* In April, the National Olympic Committee of the Caribbean island
nation of St. Vincent and the Grenadines suspended its Olympic
coach Orde Ballantyne for four years after his mother ratted him
out.  She was head of the country's delegation at the Summer
Games in 1996 and reported him for violating protocol by refusing
to stand for the U. S. national anthem. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
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(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
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From cp at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:35:29 1997
From: cp at dev.null (CypherPunks Press)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:35:29 +0800
Subject: USACM Crawls Off the Ivory Tower
In-Reply-To: <v03110700b0a0dc7f4ab8@[204.91.138.218]>
Message-ID: <347D4940.69C3@dev.null>



USACM Washington Office wrote:
> Computer scientists fear that legislation rushed through in the closing
> days of Congress may inadvertently criminalize many scientific publications
> that are freely available on the Internet today. They are calling on the
> President to veto the measure.
...
> The "No Electronic Theft Act" would criminalize the copying of materials
> which are currently protected under the well established U.S. doctrine of
> Fair-Use.

No problem. The government can begin legislating exceptions for 
people with money or influence, and create another government 
spawned cottage industry.

> USACM argues that the No Electronic Theft Act will have a chilling effect
> upon the free speech of scientists and professionals in universities and
> research labs. 

No shit, Sherlock! 
Were those living in the Ivory Towers of higher (priced) education
under the impression that Clinton only wanted middle and lower-class
Austria, that Reno only wanted Waco and Microsoft, that Freeh wants
us all, but that his Puppet Masters are reigning him in out of their
sense of decency and integrity, rather than because he's exposing too
much of the goobermint's End Game, and making the sheeple nervous?

"They came for the Jews, and I wasn't a Jew..."

Maybe computer cientists should be required to take a couple 
of history  classes on their way to our better and brighter 
technological future.
The alternative, if they are not afraid to step off of the well-lit
mainstream media streets of the Information Highway, is to take a
few detours to the increasingly out-of-the way InterNet roadside 
stands of 'we the people', who are always the first to hear the
loud sounds of the Jackboots from their ground-level, computerized
cardboard shacks. 

> According to Dr. Simons "This legislation is clearly contrary
> to the White House's stated goal of avoiding Internet regulation. We
> believe it is inconsistent with the Administration's policy to promote
> dramatically expansive laws for the Internet where other less burdensome
> means may be available to address copyright concerns."

Golly, now we have Dr.'s named something other than Vulis figuring
out that WYSIWYG is not in the government specifications.
Could it be that the echoes of the Jackboots in the stairwells of
the Ivory Towers are causing the high and mighty minds of America
to feel The Fear (TM) of the average citizen who is waiting for
the sounds of the boots being laid to his or her own door?

> The Association for Computing (ACM) is the largest and oldest professional
> association of computer scientists in the United States.  ACM's U.S. Public
> Policy Committee (USACM) facilitates communications between computer
> scientists and policy makers on issues of concern to the computing community.

They are picking us off one at a time, Barbie Doll. Unless the ACM
is ready and willing to defend freedom of speech for Sally Slut, 
who wants to put 'swingers' pictures of her and her spouse on the
InterNet, then Sally is not very likely to help you tug your skirt
back down while Bad BillyC and his pals are trying to pull it up
as their little government peckers sing a rousing chorus of, "We're
from the government, and we're here to help you."

Welcome to the real world...

TruthMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"

> For more information, Please contact:
> 
> Barbara Simons, Chair, USACM: 408/256-3661, simons at VNET.IBM.COM
> David Farber, USACM:  215/898-9508, farber at cis.upenn.edu
> Lauren Gelman, Associate Director, USACM, 202/544-4859, gelman at acm.org
> 
> http://www.acm.org/usacm/copyright/
> 
> _____________________
> November 25, 1997
> 
> President William J. Clinton
> 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
> Washington, DC 20500
> 
> Dear President Clinton:
> 
>         The Association for Computing's U.S. Public Policy Committee
> believes that the  "No Electronic Theft Act" (H.R. 2265), which is now
> before you, does not adequately reflect the nature of the new digital
> environment and will have a  negative impact on the rich scientific
> communications that have developed on the Internet in many fields,
> including computer science.  For this reason, we are asking you to veto the
> legislation. We agree that copyright holders have a legitimate need to
> protect their intellectual property.  However,  we are concerned that the
> bill was rushed through both Houses of Congress without careful
> consideration of its unintended consequences.
> 
>         We are concerned the Bill may:
> 
> *       Restrict scientists and other professionals from making their
> research available on the Internet for use by colleagues and students.
> Most scientists do not own the copyright on their own materials.  Instead,
> that copyright ownership is retained by the scientific journal which
> peer-reviews and publishes the research.  Under the No Electronic Theft
> Act, an author who posts their research on the Internet, and whose
> documents are frequently read on-line, could be subject to criminal
> prosecution.  If the bill becomes law, scientists may have to choose
> between having their work peer-reviewed or making it widely available.
> 
> *       Criminalize the transfer of information that is currently protected
> under the U.S. 'fair use' doctrine.  Copyright law is derived from the U.S.
> Constitution and is intended to advance "science and the useful arts."  The
> fair-use doctrine protects reading and nonprofit copying and thus allows
> scientists and educators to openly exchange information.  H.R. 2265 does
> not explicitly protect the "fair use" privilege which makes this open
> exchange of scientific information possible.
> 
> *       Chill free speech in universities and research labs. The
> terminology used in the Bill, including "willfully" and "for profit," are
> not defined; it is unclear what the parameters of a criminally prosecutable
> copyright infringement are.  As a result, it is likely that many
> institutions will mandate that all copyrighted documents be removed from
> the net to avoid having to defend copyright infringement prosecutions.
> 
>         We hope that you will veto this measure and ask your staff to work
> with Congress during the next session to develop more sensible legislation.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Dr. Barbara Simons Chair,
> U.S. Public Policy Committee
> Association For Computing
> 
> The Association for Computing (ACM) is the largest and oldest professional
> association of computer scientists in the United States.  ACM's U.S. Public
> Policy Committee (USACM) facilitates communication between computer
> scientists and policy makers on issues of concern to the computing
> community.
> 
> cc:     Vice President Albert Gore, Jr.
>         Ira Magaziner, Senior Adviser to President
>         Brian Kahin, Office of Science Technology and Public Policy.
>         Henry J. Hyde, Chair, House Judiciary Committee
>         John Conyers, Jr., Ranking Member, House Judiciary Committee
>         Howard Coble, Chair, Courts and Intellectual Property Subcommittee,
> House Judiciary         Committee
>         Orrin G. Hatch, Chair, Senate Judiciary Committee
>         Patrick J. Leahy, Ranking Member, Senate Judiciary Committee
>         John Ashcroft, Chair, Constitution, Federalism and Property Rights
> Subcommittee, Senate    Judiciary Committee
>         Mike DeWine, Chair, Antitrust, Business Rights and Competition
> Subcommittee, Senate    Judiciary Comittee
>         Representative Virgil H. Goode
>         Representative Barney Frank, House Judiciary Committee
>         Representative Christopher Cannon, House Judiciary Committee
>         Representative William Delahunt, House Judiciary Committee
>         Representative Elton Gallegly, House Judiciary Committee
>         Representative Bob Clement







From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 03:38:05 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:38:05 +0800
Subject: Chicken!
Message-ID: <347D07D2.4C40@dev.null>



>>>WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD?
>>>
>>>
>>>     From the Human Resources/Training Perspective:
>>>     The chicken had a vision. The chicken was proficient in the core
>>>     competencies necessary to implement the plan and make the vision
>>>     reality.
>>>
>>>     Pat Buchanan:
>>>     To steal a job from a decent, hard-working American.
>>>
>>>     Machiavelli:
>>>     The point is that the chicken crossed the road. Who cares why? The
>>>     ends of crossing the road justify whatever motive there was.
>>>
>>>     Thomas de Torquemada:
>>>     Give me ten minutes with the chicken and I'll find out.
>>>
>>>     Timothy Leary:
>>>     Because that's the only kind of trip the Establishment would let
>>>     it take.
>>>
>>>     Carl Jung:
>>>     The confluence of events in the cultural gestalt necessitated that
>>>     individual chickens cross roads at this historical juncture, and,
>>>     therefore, synchronicitously brought such occurrences into being.
>>>
>>>     John Locke:
>>>     Because he was exercising his natural right to liberty.
>>>
>>>     Albert Camus:
>>>     It doesn't matter; the chicken's actions have no meaning except to
>>>     him.
>>>
>>>     Fox Mulder:
>>>     It was a government conspiracy.
>>>
>>>     Darwin:
>>>     Chickens, over great periods of time, have been naturally selected
>>>     in such a way that they are now genetically dispositioned to cross
>>>     roads.
>>>
>>>     Darwin #2:
>>>     It was the logical next step after coming down from the trees.
>>>
>>>     Richard M. Nixon:
>>>     The chicken did not cross the road. I repeat, the chicken did not
>>>     cross the road.
>>>
>>>     Oliver Stone:
>>>     The question is not "Why did the chicken cross the road?" but is
>>>     rather "Who was crossing the road at the same time whom we
>>>     overlooked in our haste to observe the chicken crossing?"
>>>
>>>     Jerry Seinfeld:
>>>     Why does anyone cross a road? I mean, why doesn't anyone ever
>>>     think to ask, "What the heck was this chicken doing walking around
>>>     all over the place anyway?"
>>>
>>>     The Pope:
>>>     That is only for God to know.
>>>
>>>     Louis Farrakhan:
>>>     The road, you will see, represents the black man. The chicken
>>>     crossed the "black man" in order to trample him and keep him down.
>>>
>>>     Martin Luther King, Jr.:
>>>     I envision a world where all chickens will be free to cross roads
>>>     without having their motives called into question.
>>>
>>>     Immanuel Kant:
>>>     The chicken, being an autonomous being, chose to cross the road of
>>>     his own free will.
>>>
>>>     Grandpa:
>>>     In my day, we didn't ask why the chicken crossed the road. Someone
>>>     told us that the chicken had crossed the road, and that was good
>>>     enough for us.
>>>
>>>     Dirk Gently (Holistic Detective):
>>>     I'm not exactly sure why, but right now I've got a horse in my
>>>     bathroom.
>>>
>>>     Bill Gates:
>>>     I have just released the new Chicken 2000, which will both cross
>>>     roads AND balance your checkbook, though when it divides 3 by 2 it
>>>     gets 1.4999999999.
>>>
>>>     M.C.Escher:
>>>     That depends on which plane of reality the chicken was on at the
>>>time.
>>>
>>>     George Orwell:
>>>     Because the government had fooled him into thinking that he was
>>>     crossing the road of his own free will, when he was really only
>>>     serving their interests.
>>>
>>>     Plato:
>>>     For the greater good.
>>>
>>>     Aristotle:
>>>     To actualize its potential.
>>>
>>>     Karl Marx:
>>>     It was a historical inevitability.
>>>
>>>     Nietzsche:
>>>     Because if you gaze too long across the Road, the Road gazes also
>>>     across you.
>>>
>>>     B.F. Skinner:
>>>     Because the external influences, which had pervaded its sensorium
>>>     from birth, had caused it to develop in such a fashion that it
>>>     would tend to cross roads, even while believing these actions to
>>>     be of its own freewill.
>>>
>>>     Jean-Paul Sartre:
>>>     In order to act in good faith and be true to itself, the chicken
>>>     found it necessary to cross the road.
>>>
>>>     Albert Einstein:
>>>     Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road crossed the
>>>     chicken depends upon your frame of reference.
>>>
>>>     Pyrrho the Skeptic:
>>>     What road?
>>>
>>>     The Sphinx:
>>>     You tell me.
>>>
>>>     Buddha:
>>>     If you ask this question, you deny your own chicken nature.
>>>
>>>     Emily Dickenson:
>>>     Because it could not stop for death.
>>>
>>>     Ralph Waldo Emerson:
>>>     It didn't cross the road; it transcended it.
>>>
>>>     Ernest Hemingway:
>>>     To die. In the rain.
>>>
>>>     Saddam Hussein:
>>>     This was an unprovoked act of rebellion and we were quite
>>>      justified in dropping 50 tons of nerve gas on it.
>>>
>>>     Saddam Hussein #2:
>>>     It is the Mother of all Chickens.
>>>
>>>     Joseph Stalin:
>>>     I don't care. Catch it. I need its eggs to make my omelette.
>>>
>>>     Dr. Seuss:
>>>     Did the chicken cross the road?
>>>     Did he cross it with a toad?
>>>     Yes the chicken crossed the road,
>>>     but why it crossed it, I've not been told!
>>>
>>>     Colonel Sanders:
>>>     I missed one?







From kayra at OMEGA.turk.net  Thu Nov 27 03:58:55 1997
From: kayra at OMEGA.turk.net (Kayra Otaner)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:58:55 +0800
Subject: Mailing list program
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971127134701.006a147c@mail.turk.net>




I am looking for a program that runs under Windows 95 and works like a
mailing list.
I want to handle approximately 150 or 200 mail accounts and deliver a
message from sender to the others. Does any one suggest me such a program?

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6

mQByAzNQynwAAAEDIwXbyxWEggWIqhh9Y6LqDOnI4WTFf1F26ZIBbOAkFTdvbOr1
1qf+Vld1IFWdPeHWrTT9X542Nej6qi3soVJRgLesINLBG2O6ADCd9MkoJDYrqxdk
fZrO0Lu1Bthm7/rCSRp523PxAAURtBZrYXlyYSA8a2F5cmFAdHVyay5uZXQ+
=nRRP
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From cp at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 04:16:02 1997
From: cp at dev.null (CypherPunks Press)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:16:02 +0800
Subject: Moderated vs. Unmoderated Lists
In-Reply-To: <199711270525.GAA01200@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <347D5F77.5428@dev.null>



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> The issue is not moderation.  It is whether this list has a focus, a
> central set of ideas, a reason for existence.  If we're just going to
> talk about whatever anyone finds interesting, there is nothing to stop
> the list from drifting away from its goals.

  Or from moving toward its ghouls!

> There is little discussion about cryptography any more.

  OK, which one of you is the wise-guy who told Anonymous that he or
she can't send posts about cryptography to the list?

  Anonymous (if that is your *real* name...), many of us on the list
have been anxiously awaiting a Savior to arrive on the list and begin
discussing cryptography.
  We were hoping maybe it was you, but it looks like we were wrong
again.

StillWaitingMonger







From Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at BXL.DG13.cec.be  Thu Nov 27 04:57:53 1997
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at BXL.DG13.cec.be (Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at BXL.DG13.cec.be)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:57:53 +0800
Subject: Newsflash
Message-ID: <WIN2359-971127124334-5D70*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>



The European Commission today adopted a proposal for an Action Plan on promoting safe use of the Internet.

This takes the form of a Communication from the Commission to the European Parliament, the Council, the Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions with a proposal for a Council decision adopting a Multiannual Community Action Plan on promoting safe use of the Internet.

The Action Plan is the follow up of earlier initiatives by the European Union, and refers directly to the 16 October 1996 Communication on Illegal and Harmful Content on the Internet and Green Paper on Protection of Minors and Human Dignity in Audiovisual and Information Services , and the Parliament resolutions of 24 April 1997 and 24 October 1997.
 
The Action Plan is closely linked with the Commission Communication and proposal for a Recommendation of 18 November 1997, which outlines political measures on protection of minors and human dignity in the audiovisual services (http://europa.eu.int/en/comm/dg10/avpolicy/new_srv/comlv-en.htm). 

The Action Plan contains action lines on creating a safe environment through establishing a European network of hot-lines and industry self-regulation, developing filtering and rating systems and awareness action.

The text in English is available online at http://www2.echo.lu/legal/en/internet/actplan.html. Other language versions will be available shortly.






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Nov 27 06:13:27 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:13:27 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711271414.IAA26461@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
> From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 23:55:33 EST

> This has no crypto relevance.

Actualy it does, it's just that the reason for this discussion has escaped
your blipvert mentality. The reason this is relevant was the claim made by
others that had the US *not* entered WWII then the situation would be
significantly different than now. In particular it would be a more positive
results. I draw exception to this and am willing to debate the point.

> The japs didn't join the axis out fo the blue. The US was picking on the Japs
> back at the Washington conference in 1921/2,

It's interesting that as a direct results of this conference the Japanese
took the time to put down their plans to secure (ie take over) the western
Pacific. It relied on their typical "Great All-out Battle" strategy. An
important point in this strategy was luring the US fleet into Japanese
waters and defeating it.

> he bulding up the navy, building new bases on Hawaii, Guam, Midway, Samoa,
> etc, (in violation of the Washington conference), grabbing small pacific
> islands that no one claimed before (jervis, Howland, Phoebe, Palmira).

Actualy most of these islands were originaly Dutch, German, or Spanish.
For example, the Philipines were Spanish.

[data deleted]

Vulis, this hasn't dawned on you yet but none the less, you are actualy
agreeing with my position that it isn't possible for the US to have kept
out of the war. The other participants simply didn't have the resources or
the system to organize them with otherwise.

> > period. Can't say that I've ever seen this issue in anything I've read.
> 
> According to my books, the US stopped all Jap immigration into US and its
> possession (i.e. Hawaii, Philippines, ec) as of May 1, 1925.

Which books Vulis, books you have access to or books that you wrote? I made
a request for more specificity. Which books in particular are you refering
to? Further, for this to be relevant you must show that it was a change of
state that mitigated the Japanese actions in some way. That last proviso is
the bear...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Nov 27 06:22:18 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:22:18 +0800
Subject: Moderated vs. Unmoderated Lists
In-Reply-To: <199711270525.GAA01200@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <TZXTge17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> writes:

> h                                              Vulis's racist and sexist
> comments have brought other members who are comfortable expressing
> negative comments about other races and nationalities.

I'm glad to hear that my words have caused others to reject self-censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Nov 27 06:25:12 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:25:12 +0800
Subject: USACM Crawls Off the Ivory Tower
In-Reply-To: <347D4940.69C3@dev.null>
Message-ID: <NeyTge19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



CypherPunks Press <cp at dev.null> writes:
> Golly, now we have Dr.'s named something other than Vulis figuring
> out that WYSIWYG is not in the government specifications.

Did somebody say "Dr. Atila T. Hun"?  Not to mention Dr. Fred Cohen.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Nov 27 06:39:53 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:39:53 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711271446.IAA26608@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
> From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 22:40:54 EST

> This has little crypto relevance (unless someone drags in the fact that
> some of the important ww2 naval battles were won by the us because they
> broke jap codes).

WARNING: blipvert mentality

> In 1904/5 (what's a couple of years between punks) the japs beat the shit out
> of the tzar, not Stalin, because of the tzarist army's supreme incompetence,
> and also because of severe internal unrest in Russia (general strikes and
> uprisings everywhere).

It was still Russia. The claims of incompetence and internal unrest apply to
both regimes. Is there some point you wish to review regarding this point?

> Prior to that, the japs effectively beat Russia in 1875(?).

Actualy, the Russians never beat the Japanese prior to Khalkal Gol.

[deleted material, relevance unclear]

> At lake Khasan (near the short Soviet-Korean border) the Japs demanded
> (July/August, 1938) that the Soviets turn over some strategic hills, which
> would have made a future attack on Vladivostok easier.  Then the japs
> just sent some troops to occupy the hills; it took the Soviets almost 2
> weeks to re-take them, which can be explained both by their incompetence
> and by Blyukher working for the japs. Jap casualties were 650 dead and
> 2500 woulnded.

This was the battle of Chankufeng Hill (1938). My sources indicate the
casualties were approx. 10,000 on each side.

> Jap casualties were much higher at Khalkhin Gol. Strategically, the Japs were
> trying to occupy a chunk of Mongolia that would allow them to cut off the
> only railroad linking the Soviet far east with the rest of Siberia (which
> passes right next to the Chinese border). The japs were bombarding the
> disputed area of Mongolia in January-April 1939; invaded in May, and were
> kicked out by the Soviet troops, led by Zhukov (note the correct spelling)
> in late August. Their casualties were 55K, 25K of which were killed.

But(!), the relevant point of this conflict is one simple point. The
Russians didn't re-inforce *or* launch their counter-attack until *after*
Sorge had assured the Russians that the Japanese would *not* re-inforce
themselves (which they didn't). Further, it is important to note that Zhukov
employed a massively superior force, including weapons, the likes of which
had never been employeed by the Russians before. In addition, Zhukov is
notable not for his strategic sense but his tenacity, he didn't care about
casualties and did not withdraw once forces were committed. Even though it
was clear that the Japanese would have withdrawn because of lack of
reinforcements. It was a show battle from the military perspective.

[deleted material, relevance unclear]

> They recognized that they could have occupied Vladivostok in 1938 if
> they had really tried; but eventually Russian reinforcements would
> come and there would be hell to pay. Stalin demonstrated that unlike the
> tzars he was willing to put up a fight over this relatively worthless
> real estate.

Only after he was shure that the Japanese wouldn't contest it.

> Technically speaking, Moscow did fall. :-)

Militarily speaking Moscow didn't fall. :-) There was no battle. The course
taken by the Tzars in dealing with Moscow was a political move that would
actualy provide them with more return than an actual battle. Remember,
Moscow was the fort (ala Kremli), the capital was St. Petersburg. This
strategy was discussed and discarded by Stalin as being politicaly
unworkable.

> By Oct 16, 1941, everyone and
> everything were evacuated from Moscow, down to Lenin's mummy, and the Germans
> could have walked in if they wanted to.

Actualy they did walk in. Napolean spent six weeks at the Kremli before
realizing the folly of his misunderstanding. He was waiting on the Tzarist
forces fro St. Petersburg. By that time 3/4 of Moscow had been burned to the
ground.

> The Germans chose not to march in
> because they feared mines and booby traps they encountered earlier in Kiev
> (probably correct, too). While they waffled, Russian reinforcements arrived
> from Siberia and drove them off.

The Cossacks didn't arrive until shortly *after* the French began moving
their van out of Moscow.

> Mussolini's bloody invasion of Ethiopia was mostly a revenge for the
> previous invasion by Italy which ended in a humiliating defeat.

But it's irrelevant to this discussion.

> I'd venture to say that other Hitler allies (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria)
> viewed him as a lesser eveil and didn't like him at all.

Irrelevant to this discussion as well.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 06:50:38 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:50:38 +0800
Subject: Protecting America's Infrastructures
In-Reply-To: <347D6AA3.3BA5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <347D83E4.4FE2@dev.null>



>                               25 November 1997
>         Source: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces140.html
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [Federal Register: November 25, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 227)]
> =======================================================================
> Critical Foundations: Protecting America's Infrastructures
> AGENCY: Department of Commerce.
> ACTION: Notice of availability and request for comments.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> A Statement of the Problem
> 
>     Certain national infrastructures are so vital that their incapacity
> or destruction would have a debilitating impact on the defense or
> economic security of the United States. 

What are the names of the public officials and employees who are
stepping forward to accept responsibility for allowing the defense
of the United States' physical and economic security to become 
vulnerable to destruction and debilitation?
Will there be mass resignations, as a result of those in authority
allowing this problem to develop?

> These critical infrastructures
> include telecommunications, electrical power systems, gas and oil
> storage and transportation, banking and finance, transportation, water
> supply systems, emergency services (including medical, police, fire,
> and rescue), and continuity of government services. 

It sounds like fascist elements within the government have defined
the problem in a manner which will justify oppressive government
and corporate control of everything that its citizens need in order
to survive.

> Threats to these
> critical infrastructures fall into two categories: physical threats to
> tangible property (``physical threats''), and threats of electronic,
> radio-frequency, or computer-based attacks on the information or
> communications
> components that control critical infrastructures (``cyber threats'').

There are many more threats which seem to be self-servingly going
unmentioned.
Compromise of strong security by government interference.
Government mandating of a 'single point of failure' in electronic
  techno-systems, in the rush to legislate and regulate the power
  of the government to monitor and control all human communications
  and interactions on the face of the earth.
Government promotion of funneling everybody's electronic future into
  the same sticky web as the government's future, with the aim of
  forced march to Electronic Battan. (i.e. - putting Electronic
  day-care centers in government Electronic buildings.)

> Because many of these critical infrastructures are owned and operated
> by the private sector, it is essential that the government and private
> sector work together to develop a strategy for protecting them and
> assuring their continued operation.

No it is not! It is not particularly essential unless the goal is to
  work toward a fascist wedding of corporate and government interests.
Does this "strategy for protecting them" involve corporations being
  armed similarly to government armed forces, or are the plans already
  in place designed to increase the armed government presence within
  corporations?

> Mission
> 
> ... recommend a comprehensive national policy and
> implementation strategy for protecting critical infrastructures and
> assuring their continued operation; and propose any statutory or
> regulatory changes necessary to effect its recommendations.

So the basic plan was to develop critical infrastructures which
  would be accessible to teeNintendoage hackers and adults who enjoy
  sex, and then criminalize their behavior as a national threat?
Did nobody notice if the rocket scientists promoting this scheme
  of Electronic Reality were all wearing Swastikas?

> Overview of the Report's Findings
> 
>     1. New Thinking is Required in Cyberspace. It is not surprising
> that infrastructures have always been attractive targets for those who
> would do us harm. In the past we have been protected from hostile
> attacks on the infrastructures by broad oceans and friendly neighbors.
> Today, the evolution of cyber threats has changed the situation
> dramatically. In cyberspace, national borders are no longer relevant.

Is this why the government is so desperate in its headlong rush 
to *make* its citizens physical and financial security dependent
on government control of cyberspace?

>     Formulas that carefully divide responsibility between foreign
> defense and domestic law enforcement no longer apply as clearly as they
> used to and, in some instances, you may have to solve the crime before
> you can decide who has the authority to investigate it.

Or to shoot the Electronic goat-herding children.

>     2. We Should Act Now to Protect our Future. The Commission has not
> discovered an imminent attack or a credible threat sufficient to
> warrant a sense of immediate national crisis. However, the Commission
> found that our vulnerabilities are increasing steadily while the costs
> associated with an effective attack continue to drop. The investments
> required to improve the situation are still relatively modest, but will
> rise if we procrastinate.

Is the Commission naming the names of government officials and the
  government employees who are responsible for the defense of the
  United States falling into such a dismal state of vulnerability?
Is the solution to replace all of the government officials, employees
  and regulators who allowed this situation to develop?

>     3. Infrastructure Assurance is a Shared Responsibility. National
> security requires much more than military strength. While no nation
> state is likely to invade our territory or attack our armed forces, we
> are inevitably the target of ill will and hostility from some quarters.
> Disruption of the services on which our economy and well-being depend
> could have significant effects, and if repeated frequently, could
> seriously harm public confidence. 

This sounds like it makes a good case for the formation of an
  Electronic security version of our armed forces to monitor and
  control all of CyberSpace.

> Because our military and private
> infrastructures are becoming less and less separate, because it is
> getting harder to differentiate threats from local criminals from those
> from foreign powers, and because the techniques of protection,
> mitigation, and restoration are largely the same, we conclude that
> responsibility for infrastructure protection and assurance can no
> longer be delegated on the basis of who the attacker is or where the
> attack originates. Rather, the responsibility should be shared
> cooperatively among all of the players.

This sounds like a good case for treating all criminals, local and
  global, with the same iron hand of the military that we would use
  to counter threats from foreign powers. Does this mean that Jim
  Bell and Kevin Mitnick will be hung for treason?
Will this 'sharing of responsibility' among "all of the players"
  involve restructuring governments and societies into a...how
  shall I put this...NEW WORLD ORDER?

> Overview of the Report's Recommendations
> 
>     1. A Broad Program of Education and Awareness.

Spread Fear/Uncertainty/Disinformation?
Send me a job application!

>     2. Infrastructure Protection through Industry Cooperation and
> Information Sharing. Sector-by-sector cooperation and information
> sharing would take place in the context of partnerships between owners
> and operators and government. 

Send Mussolini a job application!

> These partnerships would identify and
> share best practices. The National Institute of Standards and
> Technology, the National Security Agency, and the Department of
> Energy's National Laboratories would provide technical skills and
> expertise required to identify and evaluate vulnerabilities in the
> associated information networks and control systems. 

These are the fucking idiots who were supposed to already be doing
  these things, and they are the ones who got the nation into this
  current state which you are claiming is so dismal and dangerous.
If these dweebs haven't been able to access the ClueServer up to
  now, it is unlikely they will be able to do so in the future.

>     3. Reconsideration of Laws Related to Infrastructure Protection.
> Some laws capable of promoting infrastructure assurance efforts are not
> as clear or effective as they could be. Others operate in ways that may
> be unfriendly to security concerns. Sorting them all out will be a
> lengthy and complex undertaking, involving efforts at local, state,
> federal, and international levels. The report identifies specific
> existing laws that could be modified to support infrastructure
> protection.

The mountains of laws that have criminalized the majority of our
  citizens have not been effective in preventing our society from
  becoming a dangerous place, but additional laws, criminalizing
  even more citizens and their activities will? Right...
How many more laws will be required to compensate for the bad 
  and useless laws?

>     4. A Revised Program of Research and Development.

More government.

>     5. A National Organization Structure
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Office of National Infrastructure Assurance
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Infrastructure Assurance Support Office
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Information Sharing and Analysis Center
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     National Infrastructure Assurance Council
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Lead Agencies
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Sector Coordinators 
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Warning Center
MORE GOVERNMENT!

> William Reinsch,
> Under Secretary of Commerce, Bureau of Export Administration.

                                          \
Reinsch...that's 'German', isn't it? {;>)========< 
                                          /

Why don't you all save a lot of trees and electricity and just 
  declare martial law right now, instead of wasting everybody's
  time and energy attempting to justify a fascist future?

You've got all the guns. You've got the press in your pocket.
  You can't even be bothered with telling *good* lies, anymore.
  What the fuck is the point of some lame game of InfoWar designed
  to provide some imaginary justification for turning the whole
  world into one large prison complex?

Why don't the world leaders all get together and count up their
  weapons and then just distribute the citizens according to the
  results? Your spin-doctors can promote it as an act of mercy
  toward the citizens who will no longer have to die defending
  their imaginary freedom.

The Truth?
  "We the people" already know that our predestined future is to
  serve in slavery under a fascist New World Order run by our
  government and corporate rulers.
  We're just pretending we don't know where society is headed, in
  order to trick you into moving more slowly. Pretty ironic, eh?

But what the hell...
If it saves the life of that single child everyone seems to be
  so worried about...
  (Personally, I think we should just 'whack' the little fucker.)

TruthMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn
"The CypherPunks Secret Conspiracy to Overthrow All World Governments"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/AP1-6.htm
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/AP7-10.htm






From tm at dev.null  Thu Nov 27 07:33:18 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:33:18 +0800
Subject: Newsflash
In-Reply-To: <WIN2359-971127124334-5D70*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
Message-ID: <347D857F.202A@dev.null>



Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at BXL.DG13.cec.be wrote:
> 
> The European Commission today adopted a proposal for an Action 
> Plan on promoting safe use of the Internet.

Tomorrow they will be adopting a proposal for an Action Plan on
promoting safe use of thought.

> The Action Plan is the follow up of earlier initiatives by the 
> European Union, and refers directly to the 16 October 1996 
> Communication on Illegal and Harmful Content on the Internet 
> and Green Paper on Protection of Minors and Human Dignity in 
> Audiovisual and Information Services , and the Parliament 
> resolutions of 24 April 1997 and 24 October 1997.

AKA - the Thought Police action plan

> The Action Plan contains action lines on creating a safe 
> environment through establishing a European network of 
> hot-lines and industry self-regulation, developing filtering 
> and rating systems and awareness action.

Don't tell me, let me guess...Volumandatory self-regulation?

> The text in English is available online at http://www2.echo.lu/legal/en/internet/actplan.html. 
> Other language versions will be available shortly.

Bring your own barf bag...

TruthMonger







From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Nov 27 09:35:09 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 01:35:09 +0800
Subject: For whom the Bell is sentenced...
Message-ID: <347DAAAD.5F05@sk.sympatico.ca>



I have come to believe that "assassination politics" is a political 
Rorschach (ink-blot) test: What you think of it is strongly related 
to your political philosophy.
~ Jim Bell, "Assassination Politics"

  It's a shame that Bell wasn't prosecuted and judged by people with
a clearer conscience and more a more democratic political philosophy.

  Why are people invariably under the impression that it is someone
other than themself that is putting them on The List (TM)?






From salesinfo at dandybars.com  Thu Nov 27 09:35:11 1997
From: salesinfo at dandybars.com (Steve Nelson)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 01:35:11 +0800
Subject: Unique Wedding Mementos: Advertisement
Message-ID: <199711271658.LAA03681@www.cybermedia-inc.com>



To remove yourself from this list respond with the word REMOVE in the "subject" line.

We appologize if you received this letter in error.

Hello:

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Dandybars are Hershey's Milk Chocolate Bars with colorful wrappers (using your wedding colors).  The Front of the bar includes the Bride's & Groom's Names and  the Date of the Wedding.  The back of the bar includes the names of the entire "Wedding Party" as INGREDIENTS.  

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Thank you for your time and consideration.

Steve Nelson
salesinfo at dandybars.com






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Nov 27 10:09:21 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 02:09:21 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711271446.IAA26608@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <0Z6Tge22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



The following has zero crypto relevance.

Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:

> > In 1904/5 (what's a couple of years between punks) the japs beat the shit o
> > of the tzar, not Stalin, because of the tzarist army's supreme incompetence
> > and also because of severe internal unrest in Russia (general strikes and
> > uprisings everywhere).
>
> It was still Russia. The claims of incompetence and internal unrest apply to
> both regimes. Is there some point you wish to review regarding this point?

My point was that Russia might have negotiated a better peace at Portmouth, NH,
if it wasn't forced to stop fighting by the general strike.

> > Prior to that, the japs effectively beat Russia in 1875(?).
>
> Actualy, the Russians never beat the Japanese prior to Khalkal Gol.
>
> [deleted material, relevance unclear]

Actually, the Russians forced the japs out of port arthur in 1895 and took
it for themselves. But most times their strategy was to avoid conflict and
to let the japs take whatever japs wanted, such as Hokkaido.

> > At lake Khasan (near the short Soviet-Korean border) the Japs demanded
> > (July/August, 1938) that the Soviets turn over some strategic hills, which
> > would have made a future attack on Vladivostok easier.  Then the japs
> > just sent some troops to occupy the hills; it took the Soviets almost 2
> > weeks to re-take them, which can be explained both by their incompetence
> > and by Blyukher working for the japs. Jap casualties were 650 dead and
> > 2500 woulnded.
>
> This was the battle of Chankufeng Hill (1938). My sources indicate the
> casualties were approx. 10,000 on each side.

Sigh. My (Russian) sources refer to the incident as lake Khasan, and to the
hills by their Russian names: (vysoty) Zaozernaya and Bezymyannaya.  Your
attempts to refer to Russian hills by their Korean names are a sure sign
russophobia and racism.

(I have excellent maps of both battles, but no scanner.)

> > Jap casualties were much higher at Khalkhin Gol. Strategically, the Japs we
> > trying to occupy a chunk of Mongolia that would allow them to cut off the
> > only railroad linking the Soviet far east with the rest of Siberia (which
> > passes right next to the Chinese border). The japs were bombarding the
> > disputed area of Mongolia in January-April 1939; invaded in May, and were
> > kicked out by the Soviet troops, led by Zhukov (note the correct spelling)
> > in late August. Their casualties were 55K, 25K of which were killed.
>
> But(!), the relevant point of this conflict is one simple point. The
> Russians didn't re-inforce *or* launch their counter-attack until *after*
> Sorge had assured the Russians that the Japanese would *not* re-inforce
> themselves (which they didn't). Further, it is important to note that Zhukov
> employed a massively superior force, including weapons, the likes of which
> had never been employeed by the Russians before. In addition, Zhukov is
> notable not for his strategic sense but his tenacity, he didn't care about
> casualties and did not withdraw once forces were committed. Even though it
> was clear that the Japanese would have withdrawn because of lack of
> reinforcements. It was a show battle from the military perspective.

Russians had an overwhelming superiority in tanks (498, plus 346 armored
vehicles, to 120 jap tanks and no armored vehicles). Other than that,
Russian superiority wasn't that overwhelming: 581 Russian airplanes to
450 jap airplanes etc is not exactly "overwhelming air superiority"
on Aug 20.

As for timing: according to my sources, the japs made several raids between
May 11 and 26, but didn't try to stay on Mongol territory. On may 28, 2500
japs (much of it cavalry) invaded and were driven out within 2 days by the
Soviet troops already there, before Zhukov's arrival (thanks for spelling his
name right). After accummulating reinforcements for a month, the japs attacked
again on July 2 to 11, but were stopped. Finally on July 23-25 they managed to
penetrate Soviet defences and occupied a wedge of strategic Mongol territory
on the eastern bank of Khalkhin Gol river. (They were stopped to the south.
Anyone who saw the front line would think of cutting them off.) The Soviets
then brought in more forces for a month, in particular a large quantity of
tanks. On August 20, they attacked from the north and the south, and by August
23 they had the 6th jap army surrounded and separated into several groups.
Japs attempted to relieve the 6th army by sending more troops from Khailar,
which were immediately engaged and destroyed as they arrived Aug 24-26. The
remains of the surrounded 6th army were liquidated by aug 31. The japs
undertook several more attacks in the first half of september, and signed an
armistice on Sept 16.

I see no indication that the delay of 1 month between the Japanese incursion
on July 23 and the Soviet offensive on August 20th needs any more "explaining"
then the jap delay between the failed invasion on May 28 and the attacks in
July.

As for casualties, I have 55K japs (25K dead) vs. 9824 Soviets, which seems
plausible given that the japs were surrounded and unwilling to surrender.

As for the innovative use of tanks by Zhukov, remember that tanks were already
in wide use in 1939, and remember also who trained the nazi panzer troops
while they couldn't do it in germany under the versailles treaty. This was
happening while Germans and Soviets were invading Poland, while France and GB
declared war on Germany, and while Soviets were about to attack Finland.

> > They recognized that they could have occupied Vladivostok in 1938 if
> > they had really tried; but eventually Russian reinforcements would
> > come and there would be hell to pay. Stalin demonstrated that unlike the
> > tzars he was willing to put up a fight over this relatively worthless
> > real estate.
>
> Only after he was shure that the Japanese wouldn't contest it.

It was a centuries-old poker game, in which the tzars always folded (going
back to the Nerchinsk treaty of 1699, when they turned over to the Manchurians
huge tracts of land to avoid a possible conflict with China), and Stalin
decided to call the japs' bluff for once, and the japs folded.

> > Technically speaking, Moscow did fall. :-)
>
> Militarily speaking Moscow didn't fall. :-) There was no battle. The course
> taken by the Tzars in dealing with Moscow was a political move that would
> actualy provide them with more return than an actual battle. Remember,
> Moscow was the fort (ala Kremli), the capital was St. Petersburg. This
> strategy was discussed and discarded by Stalin as being politicaly
> unworkable.

Ahem. I was talking about Hitler in 1941, not Napoleon in 1812. (Both fucked
up the psyops and alienated the popuilation which could have viewed them as
their liberators, but that's a different thread altogether.)

Militarily speaking, by oct 16 Moscow was evacuated and useless to the
Soviets.

> > By Oct 16, 1941, everyone and
> > everything were evacuated from Moscow, down to Lenin's mummy, and the Germa
> > could have walked in if they wanted to.
>
> Actualy they did walk in. Napolean spent six weeks at the Kremli before
> realizing the folly of his misunderstanding. He was waiting on the Tzarist
> forces fro St. Petersburg. By that time 3/4 of Moscow had been burned to the
> ground.

Learn to read. I was talking about Hitler's troops in October 1941. The road
to Moscow was clear, but the Germans didn't walk in.

> > The Germans chose not to march in
> > because they feared mines and booby traps they encountered earlier in Kiev
> > (probably correct, too). While they waffled, Russian reinforcements arrived
> > from Siberia and drove them off.
>
> The Cossacks didn't arrive until shortly *after* the French began moving
> their van out of Moscow.

I'm talking about 1941! Stalin decided to assume that the japs wreen't going
to attack, so he brought in fresh troops from Siberia. By the way I feel that
from the game theortic point of view, if he knew nothing about jap intentions
(i.e., no Richard Sorge), they the right strategy would have been to assume
that the japs were not going to attack; for if they did, he would have been
fucked anyway. With the assumptions that the japs wouldn't attack, he was able
to beat off the germans.

> > Mussolini's bloody invasion of Ethiopia was mostly a revenge for the
> > previous invasion by Italy which ended in a humiliating defeat.
>
> But it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Possibly.  I was responding to your (outright silly) claim that Mussolini
invaded Ethiopia to "impress" Hitler.

> > I'd venture to say that other Hitler allies (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria)
> > viewed him as a lesser eveil and didn't like him at all.
>
> Irrelevant to this discussion as well.

Possibly.  I was responding to your (outright silly) claims.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From declan at well.com  Thu Nov 27 10:58:23 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 02:58:23 +0800
Subject: "Kids summit" -- CNNfn interview with SurfWatch president
Message-ID: <v03007801b0a3665ed999@[204.254.21.48]>



[I'd still like to hear more on the inner workings of next week's "kids on
the Net" summit from our friends at CDT who are sponsoring it. The lineup
of speakers includes Janet Reno, Al Gore, and the secretaries of commerce
and education. All joining together to Protect the Children! --Declan]

----

                                     CNNFN

                         SHOW: DIGITAL JAM 19:30 pm ET

               November 26, 1997; Wednesday 7:51 pm Eastern Time

TYPE: INTERVIEW

SECTION: Business

LENGTH: 913 words

HEADLINE:  Kids & Cyberspace

GUESTS:  Michael Sears

BYLINE:  John Defterios

BODY:


    JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNNfn ANCHOR, DIGITAL JAM: Next week family advocates,
educators and industry leaders are coming together to discuss ways to keep
children safe in cyberspace.  One of the sponsors of the Internet Online
Summit is Surfwatch a company that makes blocking software to help parents
and teachers filter out objectionable content.

    Joining me now from Stanford, California to discuss the goals of the
summit is Michael Sears.  He is the president of Surfwatch.  Michael it's
great to have you on DIGITAL JAM.  Welcome to you.

    MICHAEL SEARS, PRESIDENT, SURFWATCH: Thank you, a pleasure to be here.

    DEFTERIOS: First of all, let's discuss how this summit came about.  Was
it a building movement that finally crescendo.

    SEARS: I think it is.  It's actually the outgrowth of what we did last
June with President Clinton and Vice President Gore.  In fact June and July
time frame the CDA was overturned.  The White House decided to take the
initiative and asked the industry to get together to see what we can do to
actually empower kids and enable kids Online.

    DEFTERIOS OK.  What is the happy medium here, Michael because that's
what everybody is really looking for because the Communications Decency Act
did stumble and we had people on both side of the debate wanting to stake
out their territory.  What is , in your view, is the center ground?

    SEARS: Well, the debate will continue, but the center ground really is
that it's all about kids.  What we're talking about doing here is bringing
together industry and law enforcement and public policy people and talking
about to empower kids Online and give them effective tools. Effective tools
that are also very easy to use.

    The idea behind that is how can kids actually get on the net, learn,
research, discover, play and do it in a really enriching environment. But
also we realize that there are a lot of safety concerns Online. That's
probably what we're going to talk about primarily.

    DEFTERIOS: How about the ACLU, they were raising concerns about being
blocked out here or filtration or censorship on the extreme.  How do you
deal with that side of - the people on that side of the debate?

    SEARS: It's a slippery slope.  The idea here is do we block, companies
like Surfwatch, do we block content Online.  The idea once again is we
target your typical 12 year old in the US.  If that 12 year old should see
a site or if that 12 years old needs to discover something we try to make
sure that we have all of our technology, all of our processes in place to
insure that information comes forward.  Such as, we don't block the idea of
breast, for instance, because breast could be talking about a chicken
recipe.  It could be talk about breast cancer.  However, it it's a sexually
explicit depiction or expression of that word that's where you come in and
use filtering software to block.

    DEFTERIOS: There's another side to this, of course, that kids are often
much more computer savvy than their parents.  How do you over that hurtle?

    SEARS: That's a major hurdle.  In fact we're talking about empowering
kids with effective tools, but those tools have to be very easy to use and
the ease of use isn't really for the kids because the kids know how to do
this stuff. They know what's Online. They know what's out there and they
know how to get there.  What we really provide are the easy to use tools
for mom and dad.  So mom and dad pointing and clicking and turning switches
on and off very easily can really control the family's environment.

    DEFTERIOS: As you know, this is a political hot potato for President
Clinton because he didn't want to seem extreme on both side and he would
like industry to work it out.  When it is all said and done, Michael, what
is the solution here?

    SEARS: Well, the solution that this market is all about is called
parental control.  Surfwatch started the market about three years ago and
the word parental control itself was important not only because it's the
software in the technology, but it because of those first two words,
parental control.  Mom and dad have to be involved.  Mom and dad have to
engage not only to help the kids Online, but also make sure that in chat
rooms or with e-mail or with explicit pictures they can really sit down and
talk to the kids and moderate what their kids are doing.  We're just a tool.

    DEFTERIOS: This is not a government.  Not to interrupt you, but we're
almost out of time here.  But this is, you're saying, not government
intervention then.

    SEARS: Absolutely.

    DEFTERIOS: The technology is out there to let the families tackle this
on their own.

    SEARS: That on and off switch should be in the hands of moms and dads
not the government.

    DEFTERIOS: OK, great.  How about your market share before we let you go
tonight?  How are you faring against your competition?

    SEARS: I think we're doing very well.  All the buzz that's been
happening over the last couple of months has helped our shares as well as
our competitors. We've shipped millions of copies, 7.2 last July. We
haven't done the survey lately, but we're clearly in the tens of millions
right now.

    DEFTERIOS: OK.  It's great to have you.

    SEARS: Great to be here.  Thanks very much.

    DEFTERIOS: And have a nice Thanksgiving holiday.

    SEARS: Same to you.  Take care.

    DEFTERIOS: My pleasure.  Michael Sears, president of Surfwatch, joining
us from Stanford, California.









From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Nov 27 11:09:54 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:09:54 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711271910.NAA27192@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
> From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 97 11:22:32 EST

> My point was that Russia might have negotiated a better peace at Portmouth, NH,
> if it wasn't forced to stop fighting by the general strike.

And just exactly what does that have to do with contributing to the US
becoming involved in WWII?

> Actually, the Russians forced the japs out of port arthur in 1895 and took
> it for themselves. But most times their strategy was to avoid conflict and
> to let the japs take whatever japs wanted, such as Hokkaido.

The point to this is that at the same time the US was taking the Hawaii's, Guam,
and conquered the Philippines (costing 20,000 Filipinos & 4,000 Americans).
The US itself was making grabs into that same pie.

> > This was the battle of Chankufeng Hill (1938). My sources indicate the
> > casualties were approx. 10,000 on each side.
> 
> Sigh. My (Russian) sources refer to the incident as lake Khasan, and to the
> hills by their Russian names: (vysoty) Zaozernaya and Bezymyannaya.  Your
> attempts to refer to Russian hills by their Korean names are a sure sign
> russophobia and racism.

Actualy it stems from my being an American and the names that are chosen for
whatever reason. Pretty weak ad hominim.

[deleted material - weapons count - relevancy unclear]

> As for the innovative use of tanks by Zhukov,

Huh? Who said anything about Zhukov being innovative? His main claim to fame
is his disregard for casualties.

> Ahem. I was talking about Hitler in 1941, not Napoleon in 1812. (Both fucked
> up the psyops and alienated the popuilation which could have viewed them as
> their liberators, but that's a different thread altogether.)
> 
> Militarily speaking, by oct 16 Moscow was evacuated and useless to the
> Soviets.

The issue in both cases wasn't military. In Napoleon's case the capital
wasn't Moscow, it was St. Petersburg. Moscow was an outpost the French over
estimated the worth of. By not fighting for it the peoples sacrifice created
a great political environment and also further depleted the French who
weren't prepared for the weather. In the WWII case, Stalin couldn't afford to
be seen backing down.

> Learn to read. I was talking about Hitler's troops in October 1941. The road
> to Moscow was clear, but the Germans didn't walk in.

The Germans only got to the outskirts. And the records that I have indicate
that it wasn't a cake walk. To quote a report that Bock made to Brauchitsch
just after arriving from viewing Moscow from a front-line bunker: "I have 
last night relieved a divisional commander who reported that the Russians
had repulsed his men with hammers and shovels."

> I'm talking about 1941! Stalin decided to assume that the japs wreen't going
> to attack, so he brought in fresh troops from Siberia.

There was no assumption. Stalin had Sorge to tell him what was up.

> By the way I feel that
> from the game theortic point of view, if he knew nothing about jap intentions
> (i.e., no Richard Sorge), they the right strategy would have been to assume
> that the japs were not going to attack; for if they did, he would have been
> fucked anyway. With the assumptions that the japs wouldn't attack, he was able
> to beat off the germans.

Assuming he had no intelligence, send out scouts. I would probably look at
some form of contested withdrawal (the hardest kind of operation technicaly)
to a set of stop-lines. I would use those stop lines for re-supply &
re-organization. This would allow me to remove troops from the front lines
and compensate with improved logistics over my opponent, whose supply lines
only get longer and longer. I would in addition increase my intelligence
resources (eg traffic monitoring & analysis) on that front. I would furher
increase my air forces ability to bomb in close support to about 100 miles
behind the front lines. The lines would be about 30-60 miles apart depending
on terrain. Never under-estimate your enemy (that 'no intelligence' will
bite you in the ass *every* time) and have a clear goal. I would attempt to
pull some troops from the eastern front because the Japanese supply lines
would be long and external, while mine get shorter and are internal. This
would allow me an edge on the typical 3:1 ratio. I would further recognize
that while I had lots of natural resources in that area but few urban areas
physical control for a short period while resolving the western front is
acceptable. If something like the US entering were to occur I would then put
a light covering screen and pull troops out because the Japanese don't have
the resources to fight on that many fronts.

> Possibly.  I was responding to your (outright silly) claim that Mussolini
> invaded Ethiopia to "impress" Hitler.

No, I claim that *one* of the issues involved was to be able to appear at
the bargaining table as Hitlers equal. Material refering to these motives are
in Ciano's diary. Mussolini was wanting the entire episode to be seen as a
grand adventure. He wanted Italy to be seen as an adventersome country with
the cutting edge in political systems successfuly fulfilling its rightful
place in history. In short, he wanted to be seen as the 'good guy'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cvhd at indyweb.net  Thu Nov 27 11:21:26 1997
From: cvhd at indyweb.net (cvhd at indyweb.net)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:21:26 +0800
Subject: Request for Jim Bell Update
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971127121909.00856e10@indyweb.net>



Anyone have a pointer to a Jim Bell update page or source?
Thanks






From 37663040 at sprintmail.com  Fri Nov 28 03:45:13 1997
From: 37663040 at sprintmail.com (37663040 at sprintmail.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:45:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hot Stocks - Double your Money Before Christmas!!!
Message-ID: <>


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Who said opportunity only knocks once.
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chains. Under valued stock situations presently $1.50 per share.
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up to $10.00 by 1998. Stock symbol JTSR on NASDAQ
If you had invested just $100.00 in 1955 in Mcdonalds, it would be worth
over $100 million today.$1000 would be worth  over $1billion
Here is another opportunity for you. Visit us at http://www.jtsr.com or
call 1-888-295-6365








From 37663040 at sprintmail.com  Fri Nov 28 03:45:13 1997
From: 37663040 at sprintmail.com (37663040 at sprintmail.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:45:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hot Stocks - Double your Money Before Christmas!!!
Message-ID: <>


Visit http://www.jtsr.com or call 888-295-6365 For Complete Information.
Who said opportunity only knocks once.
JT's Restaurant is about to be one of the fastest growing Restaurant
chains. Under valued stock situations presently $1.50 per share.
Analysts predict stock to go as high as $4.00 by year's end and could go
up to $10.00 by 1998. Stock symbol JTSR on NASDAQ
If you had invested just $100.00 in 1955 in Mcdonalds, it would be worth
over $100 million today.$1000 would be worth  over $1billion
Here is another opportunity for you. Visit us at http://www.jtsr.com or
call 1-888-295-6365








From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Nov 27 12:34:40 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 04:34:40 +0800
Subject: Request for Jim Bell Update
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971127201442.0070595c@pop.pipeline.com>



>Anyone have a pointer to a Jim Bell update page or source?

Here's recent Jim Bell material:

   http://jya.com/jimbell6.htm (news stories on Bell's sentencing)

   http://jya.com/next-wave.htm  (US News on CB terrorism, stars JB)

   http://jya.com/jibell-dock4.htm  (latest court dockets for USA v. Bell)

For earlier info access backwards in each series: 

   ../jimbell5, etc.; 

   ../jimbell-dock3.htm, etc.

Not aware of a source for the classified version but the public 
version of "Assassination Politics" is at: 

   http://jya.com/ap.htm







From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Nov 27 19:48:20 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:48:20 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971126215102.25919A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <742657deba4ba52d23014c9908c692cb@anon.efga.org>



Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> writes:

> Who the hell cares about a Togo travel advisory? What's next? The Miami
> weather forecast?

                               Weather Underground: Search For: Miami (p1 of 3)

                                  [INLINE]
                                  [INLINE]

                             Search For: Miami

                                    WUI
    Weather Underground Find the Weather for any City, State or Zipcode,
   or Country______________________________ Fast Forecast Tropical Storms
                               Hurricane Map
       United States Canada Central America South America Asia Europe
                          Australia Africa Islands
                      
                          Metric | English | Both
                    
   Place Temperature Humidity Pressure Conditions Updated Warning
   Favorites
   Miami, Arizona 51� F 62% 29.9 in Partly Cloudy 7:45 PM MST
                          

   [LINK]
   Miami, Florida 75� F 57% 30.09 in Scattered Clouds 9:56 PM EST
                               Weather Underground: Search For: Miami (p2 of 3)


   [LINK]
   Miami, Indiana 46� F 66% 29.85 in Mostly Cloudy 9:55 PM EST


   [LINK]
   Miami, Missouri 59� F 77% 29.76 in Clear 8:53 PM CST


   [LINK]
   Miami, New Mexico 29� F 69% 29.78 in Overcast 8:15 PM MST
 [LINK]

   [LINK]
   Miami, Ohio 44� F 51% 30 in Clear 9:53 PM EST


   [LINK]
   Miami, Oklahoma 65� F 69% 29.7 in Overcast 5:46 PM CST


                               Weather Underground: Search For: Miami (p3 of 3)
   [LINK]
   Miami, Texas 51� F 46% 29.68 in Partly Cloudy 8:51 PM CST


   [LINK]
   Miami, West Virginia 39� F 62% 30.08 in Clear 9:56 PM EST


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          [INLINE] Copyright � 1997 The Weather Underground, Inc.


                 Weather Underground: Miami, Florida Weather Forecast (p1 of 4)

   REFRESH(900 sec): http://www.wunderground.com/US/FL/Miami.html

                                  [INLINE]
                                  [INLINE]

                 Conditions and Forecast for Miami, Florida
    
                          Metric | English | Both

               Conditions at 9:56 PM EST on November 27, 1997
                         Observed at Miami, Florida
                             Temperature 75� F
                                Humidity 57%
                               Dewpoint 59� F
                            Wind East at 10 mph
                             Pressure 30.09 in
                        Conditions Scattered Clouds
                            Visibility 10 miles
                           Sunrise 6:47 AM (EST)
                            Sunset 5:29 PM (EST)
                            Moon Phase [INLINE]

WeatherMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From attila at hun.org  Thu Nov 27 21:08:57 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:08:57 +0800
Subject: Update On Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971125002759.006e8104@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971128.045405.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971124:1927, in <1.5.4.32.19971125002759.006e8104 at pop.pipeline.com>, 
    John Young <jya at pipeline.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>In short, on November 17 Jim's attorney (D') and the prosecutor
>(P') submitted Sentencing Memoranda to the Court. On November
>21 (the previously scheduled sentencing date), D' presented a 
>Supplement to Sentencing Memo. Both of D's memos were 
>Filed Under Seal, but not the P's.
>
    if the public defender's brief is filed under seal, it generally
    discusses what the defendent has passed the government --in other
    words: snitching on others in affairs related to the defendent or
    even the names of people who the defendent feels might be part of
    the overall problem to the government --sounds like most any active
    cypherpunk to me as there are not too many happy with the government's
    actions on amendments 1,2,4,5,6,8,10,14 for a starter. by the time
    F{reeh,uck} gets through, there will be no bill of rights --Orwell
    was a piker.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNH5QDLR8UA6T6u61AQG8eAH/fEAUCJV3I6QUWg5M310iAsPkac6R6sXQ
e6CVuRx1BgmHnExbLWnHNmrzyYnCVKAjvbzi5Yb5L8zNySqIHpSa4w==
=HbOs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Thu Nov 27 21:29:42 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:29:42 +0800
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <742657deba4ba52d23014c9908c692cb@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971128062041.28048B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> writes:
> 
> > Who the hell cares about a Togo travel advisory? What's next? The Miami
> > weather forecast?
> 
>                                Weather Underground: Search For: Miami

[Miami forecast elided]

Somehow, I knew  this was going to happen.... Grow up. Get a life.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From declan at well.com  Thu Nov 27 21:33:59 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:33:59 +0800
Subject: Request for Jim Bell Update
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971127121909.00856e10@indyweb.net>
Message-ID: <v03007806b0a3fb79f5b4@[204.254.21.48]>



My report on the original raid in April:

 http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html

The July/August issue of Internet Underground has my much longer piece with
the last (I believe) interview with Jim Bell before he went to jail.

-Declan


At 12:19 -0500 11/27/97, cvhd at indyweb.net wrote:
>Anyone have a pointer to a Jim Bell update page or source?
>Thanks



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From info at infowatch.net  Thu Nov 27 21:36:51 1997
From: info at infowatch.net (Info Desk)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:36:51 +0800
Subject: Advertisement: Web Site Hosting
Message-ID: <19971127171408397.AAC161@infowatch.net>




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From declan at well.com  Thu Nov 27 22:02:41 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:02:41 +0800
Subject: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
Message-ID: <v03007807b0a402308a96@[204.254.21.48]>



So I've been reading "Freedom and the Court" by Henry Abraham, and a
passage in it made me think of Tim May and the cypherpunks list:

	"//Actual, overt// incitement of the overthrow of the government
	of the United States by force and violence, accompanied by the
	language of direct and imminent incitement, is not freedom of
	expression but a violation of Court-upheld legislative
	proscriptions; yet the //theoretical// advocacy of such
	overthrow, on the other hand, has been a judicially recognized
	protected freedom since 1957." [See Yates v. United States, 354
	U.S. 298 (1957), particularly Mr. Justice Harlan's opinion for
	the 6:1 court.] (Emphasis in the original. --DM)

Some civil liberties lawyers, incidentally, have told me that Internet
messages almost by definition are probably not "direct and imminent
incitement."

Some excerpts from Yates v. United States:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=354&page=2
9
        The essential distinction [354 U.S. 298, 325] is that those to whom
	the advocacy is addressed must be urged to do something, now or
	in the future, rather than merely to believe in something. [...]

        Instances of speech that could be considered to amount to "advocacy
	of action" are so few and far between as to be almost completely
	overshadowed by the hundreds of instances in the record in which
	overthrow, if mentioned at all, occurs in the course of doctrinal
	disputation so remote from action as to be almost wholly lacking
	in probative value. Vague references to "revolutionary" or
	"militant" action of an unspecified character, which are found
	in the evidence, might in addition be given too great weight by
	the jury in the absence of more precise instructions.
	Particularly in light of this record, we must regard the trial
	court's charge in this respect as furnishing wholly inadequate
	guidance to the jury on this central point in the case. We cannot
	allow a conviction to stand on such "an equivocal direction to
	the jury on a basic issue."

-Declan







From bdolan at USIT.NET  Thu Nov 27 23:45:38 1997
From: bdolan at USIT.NET (Brad Dolan)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:45:38 +0800
Subject: How to spot a hate group [was Re: Update On Jim Bell]
In-Reply-To: <19971128.045405.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971128023335.1745A-100000@use.usit.net>




On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>     if the public defender's brief is filed under seal, it generally
>     discusses what the defendent has passed the government --in other
>     words: snitching on others in affairs related to the defendent or
>     even the names of people who the defendent feels might be part of
>     the overall problem to the government --sounds like most any active
>     cypherpunk to me as there are not too many happy with the government's
>     actions on amendments 1,2,4,5,6,8,10,14 for a starter. by the time
>     F{reeh,uck} gets through, there will be no bill of rights --Orwell
>     was a piker.
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#From: "Clayton E. Cramer" <clayton_cramer at dlcc.com>
#Subject: the American Society of Criminology conference in San Diego
#Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:35:37 -0800

Well, it was an interesting experience. ...

Professor Joyce Malcolm of Bentley College in Massachusetts
was the chair of the panel on which I sat.  She showed me
something quite disturbing from another presentation that
she had attended.  The paper attempted to determine if the
Montana Militia could be considered a "hate group" or
not.  Among the methods by which they determined this was
examination of the phrases and concerned in Montana Militia
literature.  Among the phrases or subjects that would
classify a group as a "hate group" were:

1. Discussion of the Bill of Rights, especially the
Second Amendment.

2. Discussion of military oppression, in the U.S. or
elsewhere.

3. Discussion of the Framers of our government.

She showed me a copy of the criteria used by the criminologists
in question, and these were among the criteria.  I guess
the ACLU and Amnesty Internationl are hate groups also.
Very disturbing.

--
 


-








From coutris at ie2.u-psud.fr  Fri Nov 28 01:54:06 1997
From: coutris at ie2.u-psud.fr (emmanuel coutris)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:54:06 +0800
Subject: Algorithms
Message-ID: <199711280946.KAA09567@ie2_3.ie2.u-psud.fr>



I search to program an encoder and decoder. I know the RSA encryption method but
I don't know how to apply it to a file (I have programmed it
only with numbers). Can you send me the way I can apply
this algorithm to files (binary and text).
Manu






From mentor at mail.bip.net  Fri Nov 28 17:58:58 1997
From: mentor at mail.bip.net (mentor at mail.bip.net)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:58:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Online Marketing Course!
Message-ID: <0321432431519b7MAIL2@mail.bip.net>



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From gwb at gwb.com.au  Fri Nov 28 19:28:32 1997
From: gwb at gwb.com.au (Global Web Builders)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:28:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to overcome the apparent media boycott of Pauline Hanson's new biography
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971129124650.111f2d48@mail.pronet.net.au>


Dear One Nation supporter in NSW,

It has come to our attention that the newly released authorised biography of
"Pauline, the Hanson Phenonenon" is apparently not being stocked by major
book sellers in most Australian states.

The big exception to the rule is Queensland where publicity and coverage was
given to the book launch and resulting sales in this state have been
excellent. This media coverage has simply not occured in the other states.

Media monitor show that only "The West Australian" and "The Canberra Times"
covered the book launch or any subsequent publicity of any note.

Reading between the lines News Limited, who dominate the print press, have
totally ignored the book.

We would ask you to contact your local major book seller to make a copy of
the book available in their store, book details as follows:

"Pauline, The Hanson Phenomenon" by Helen Dodd, publishers Boolarong Press,
Queensland ISBN #0646332171.

This action will result in the book being ordered by your local book store
who have the details on how to make orders for the book. If they say they do
not wish to order or stock the book please contact GWB with the details of
the bookstore.

It is important to note that the book store does not pay for the book as it
is on consignment and anything that they do not sell is returned to the
publisher so their is no financial cost to the book store.

We are confident that the book will be sold, based on extraordinary sales in
Queensland, but without the publicity the general public will not be aware
that the book is available. It appears that the mainstream media are
attempting to prevent the book reaching its potential audience Australia wide.

Your assistance in overcoming this apparent act of censorship would be
greatly appreciated.


GWB



Scott Balson.








From frissell at panix.com  Fri Nov 28 04:49:48 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:49:48 +0800
Subject: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b0a402308a96@[204.254.21.48]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971128072501.008f4100@panix.com>



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At 12:45 AM 11/28/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>So I've been reading "Freedom and the Court" by Henry Abraham, and a
>passage in it made me think of Tim May and the cypherpunks list:

There is no crime called "advocating revolution" or even 
"revolution."  The crime that is being discussed in such cases is 
"sedition."

Any US Attorney will tell you that sedition convictions are hard to 
win because of the difficulty proving that the defendant actually 
tried to do so in a realistic way.  Tough.

The trial of a group of isolationists during WWII and some white 
supremacists a few years ago resulted in acquittals.  

DCF

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From ultramax at 206.105.237.162  Fri Nov 28 21:42:46 1997
From: ultramax at 206.105.237.162 (ultramax at 206.105.237.162)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:42:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: National Poetry Contest
Message-ID: <199711282300.TAA02547@ns.alpina1.net>



SUBJECT:  Poetry Contest, Win $3000.00

TEXT OF MESSAGE:

               -N A T I O N A L  P O E T R Y  F O R U M-

   You are invited to submit a poem to the National Poetry Forum.  All works
will be read by our staff of award winning poets and writers, and you will
receive a "Critical Analysis Report" with detailed professional comments and
thoughts on your poetry.  The top 25 poems received, as determined by our
judges, will be awarded cash prizes including a $3,000.00 Grand Award.

   The National Poetry Forum, based in New York, looks for fresh new talent
in writers and poets like you.  We employ award winning professional poets to
analyze all poetry as well as judge them for award eligibility on the basis
of creativity and literary content.  With the writers permission, the 25
award winning poems will be "displayed" on our web site.   
                         -RULES AND GUIDELINES-
-Send us ONE poem, any style and on any subject, no more than 25 lines typed
and single spaced on an 8x11 sheet of paper.  
-In the upper left corner should be:
          -Title of Poem
          -Your Name
          -Your Street Address
          -City, State, Zip
          -Your E-Mail Address
-Send poem along with a $10.00 fee (this fee is both for the Critical
Analysis Report and for entry into Award Eligibility).  Make checks payable
to "National Poetry Forum"
-All poems must be received by January 15, 1998.
-CRITICAL ANALYSIS REPORT:  You will receive a personal Critical Analysis
Report regardless of award status.  This report will contain comments on your
poetry and professional insight into the use of the poetic styles and
techniques found in your work.  You will receive report by March 15.
-AWARDS:  Money awards will be given for the top 25 poems, as determined by
our judges.  The Grand Award is $3,000.00.  If your poetry is aming the top
25, you will receive your award along with the Critical Analysis Report.  
-DEADLINE:  January 15.

Send poem along with a $10.00 non-refundable fee to:
          National Poetry Forum
          PO Box 381
          New York, NY 10040
**Make checks payable to "National Poetry Forum"

-QUESTIONS?  COMMENTS?  Feel free to E-Mail us at NatPoeFor at aol.com
Visit our web site at http://members.aol.com/NatPoeFor/poetry.html

Please note:  The National Poetry Forum does not retain the rights to any
poetry or literary works received.  All poems are the sole property of the
writer.










From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 28 06:21:10 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 22:21:10 +0800
Subject: [RePol] BCC IN REMAILERS
In-Reply-To: <199711280951.CAA12273@euromail.com>
Message-ID: <347ECDD4.77F7@dev.null>



Jay Stotzky wrote:
> On 28 Nov 97 at 0:19, Denizen wrote:
> <text snipped>
 
> Whatever.  Hope what you're doing doesn't backfire on any remailer
> operators, Rich.  That'd be a real shame.

  What I love most about self-righteous jackasses is that I can usually
count on picking up a little extra beer money by betting that their last
post to a thread where they have had their ass kicked, they will crawl
out on their bellies with some lame, moralistic equivalent of,
"Yeah, but when that single child (TM) dies, _you_ will be the one who 
 is responsible for their death. (Pictures at 11!)"
OR
"Sure, light bulb jokes are funny...until someone burns a retina."

  Hay, Jay...why don't you shoot twenty 'innocent' citizens at random
every time someone 'abuses' a remailer? Then you can point out how 
many needless deaths could be prevented by ratting out one's friends
to the remailer Gestapo. (And be sure to make everyone aware that
use of the letter, 'n', is 'abuse', in *your* definintion.)

BIG FUCKING NEWS FLASH, JACK!!!
  In the universal scheme of things, there _is_no_ abuse!

  If you read the chapter on rights in "How I Found Freedom In An 
Unfree World" and thought Harry Browne was being 'cute' with his 
one-liner, 
"People have a right to do to you whatever you can't stop them from
 doing."
then you might try reading it again without your hand down the front
of your pants.


HOW TO KNOW WHEN YOU'RE A FASCIST NAZI--TIP #7:
"The only people who should use the word 'we' are kings, priests and
people with tapeworms."

  Heigh, Jay...I may be a liar, an asshole and a forger, but at least
I lead with my balls. When I take it upon myself to speak for all
cypherpunks on the face of the earth, I try to do it as the "Chief
CypherPunks SpokesPerson," and not by trying to slip the "Royal WE"
up everyone's butt through the back door (redundant?).

  There ain't no 'we' when the Feds knock on a remailer's door, any
more than there is a 'we' in Jim Bell's WorldWide Conspiracy.

  Someone posts a simple question to a remailer list asking which
remailers support a certain function, and your reply is to try
to shake them down to find out the 'purity' of their 'motives'
in asking a technical question?
  Of course, you're not a Nazi, are you? "WE just want to ask you
a few questions..." before revealing 'source code', in order to
make certain that no one is going to make 'improper' use of any
remailers, or encryption packages, or graphic images of fully
clothed children, or...

  Becoming a remailer operator is one of the quickest ways I've
found to ferret out 'Big Brother Inside' (TMTCM).
  I regard most remailer operators as everyday heros, but I have
to laugh (or puke) when I see someone painting themselves, or
remailer operators as a whole, as some kind of Hero/Savior/Saint.
This is invariably followed by viewing themselves as part of
some Holy Crusade to 'save' remailer recipients from spam, or
one of the other Horsemen of the Remailer Apocalypse.

  Any technical limitations one imposes on the use of their remailer
that is not due purely to considerations in regard to survival, is
nothing more than using it as an ego-tool to play God/BigBrother.
  Even the process of trying to survive as a remailer operator leads
to one needing to reevaluate their character, beliefs and values.
e.g. - You may be able to survive by allowing Christian spamming,
but not Satanist spamming. Do you allow one, but not the other, in
order to keep from getting shut down?
e.g. - You may be able to survive by allowing anonymous email to
any .gov site except whitehouse.gov. Do you allow one, but not the
other?

  Hey, Jay...I recognize your 'right' to answer technical questions
about remailer use only after having the person asking the question
fill out a 10-page form asking questions such as,
"Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party?"
  I also recognize your right to be laughed at as a lame, Nazi fuck.

TruthMonger#1

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From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Nov 28 06:26:49 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 22:26:49 +0800
Subject: Naked Stealth
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971128141419.006dcb54@pop.pipeline.com>



The 26 November Guardian reports on the bungled case
of the UK hacker who allegedly threatened US national
security by hacking the Rome AFB system (and scaring the
bejesus out of the North Koreans to boot) while searching
for Area 51 info on aliens. 

The case was thrown out by the court as way overblown
and unproveable, though the USG got a lot of mileage from
it for "terrorist threats."

It hoots at the USAF's crack cyber-security team in San 
Antonio who over-mobilized to trace the terrifying teenager
by most sophisticated means, not knowing that the kid had 
already been nabbed by Scotland Yard thanks to a 
traditional-means informant.

Now the officer who led the AF hunt is working the cyber-scare
circuit peddling the top gun technology -- top secret of course,
can't even be revealed by court order.

   http://jya.com/naked-gun.htm







From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 28 07:40:29 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 23:40:29 +0800
Subject: Naked Spook Fascism / Re: Naked Stealth
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971128141419.006dcb54@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <347EE136.4E0F@dev.null>



John Young wrote:
>    http://jya.com/naked-gun.htm

SUMMARY: Britain is thinking of moving to a government/corporate
 merger system of secret intelligence agencies, but without making
 it an 'open secret' as is done in the US.

Bickford revealed that, in 1995, the intelligence agencies had secretly 
suggested to the Major government that they develop links to large 
companies in order to provide them with �protective business 
intelligence�.

The main threat to Britain now was �serious economic crime� and 
�super-terrorism�, involving the use of weapons of mass destruction, he 
said. 

Not only were �operational officers with long experience in 
intelligence� being lost to the private sector, others were lost because 
they had to take up management posts instead of carrying on in
intelligence. Tax payers were having to pay for this �waste of
experience�, Bickford claimed. 

A new �national intelligence agency� should be formed, he added, in 
order to provide protective business intelligence. It could even charge 
for its services. It was �long overdue� for the Parliamentary 
Intelligence Oversight Committee to instigate the process of 
amalgamating the three agencies. 

Bickford�s call for more intelligence and security expertise for 
business was backed by Sir Peter Imbert, former Commissioner of the 
Metropolitan Police, and other senior ex-police officers. 

[Duncan Campbell is a freelance writer and broadcaster, and not the 
 Guardian�s crime correspondent of the same name]

POST-SUMMARY: Truth in Fascism will allow for greater efficiency in
  sending citizens and troops overseas to die for Texaco and Pepsico,
  since there will no longer be a need to waste time and resources
  on promoting some bullshit 'freedom and democracy' claptrap to
  justify the murder of foreigners who fuck with corporate cash
  flow.






From billp at nmol.com  Fri Nov 28 08:02:32 1997
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:02:32 +0800
Subject: NSA
Message-ID: <347EE426.4013@nmol.com>

The battle continues.


Friday 11/28/97 6:27 AM

John Young

Morales and I could not find the word surreply in the dictionary.

Microsoft Word spelling checker didn�t recognize surreply either.

Speculation is that if I showed up at the NM district federal court 
clerk�s office this morning with a surreply, the clerk would not file
it for the reason that we did not have the leave of court.

But, of course, we are not filing a surreply.  We like the Federal Rules
of Civil Procedure better than New Mexico local rules..

Had a great time at my former Ph.D. student Sobolewski's home 
last night.

Voytek visited this summer from Poland.  I met him

Voytek brought Sobolewski some Chopin Polish vodka.  And 
several other bottles of Polish vodka. One had grass in 
the bottle.

Sobolewski was born in Cracow in 1939.

Sobolewski even recalls as a youth seeing the freight trains going 
east.  Loaded with people.  Arbeit macht frei.

Let�s hope some people see the merits in prompt settlement 
before this matter gets worse.  And get the American eagle flying
right. Especially the legal eagle.

Later
bill


		  UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                 FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW MEXICO


William H. Payne        	   	    )
Arthur R. Morales                           )
                                            )
                Plaintiffs,                 )
                                            )
v                                           )	CIV NO 97 0266 
					    )	SC/DJS
			                    )
Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF )
Director, National Security Agency	    )
National Security Agency		    )
                                            )
                Defendant                   )


PLAINTIFFS' ANSWER TO DEFENDANT'S CROSS-CLAIM REPLY TO PLAINTIFFS' 
RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR PARTIAL  DISMISSAL AND MOTION FOR 
SUMMARY JUDGMENT

1  COMES NOW plaintiffs Payne [Payne] and Morales [Morales] 

[Plaintiffs], pro se litigants to exercise their rights 

guaranteed under the Local Civil Rules to respond to 

DEFENDANT'S REPLY TO PLAINTIFFS' RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S  

MOTION FOR PARTIAL DISMISSAL AND MOTION FOR SUMMARY 

JUDGMENT [REPLY] filed 97 NOV 14 by assistant US attorney 

Jan Mitchell.

2 Local Civil Rule 7.6 Timing of and Restrictions on

Responses and Replies, (b) Surreply states

  The filing of a surreply requires leave of the Court.

But this filing is NOT A SURREPLY.

Rule 7 of the Federal Rules for Civil Procedure states

  (a)  Pleadings.  There shall be a complaint and an
  answer; a reply to a counterclaim denominated as such;
  an answer to a cross-claim, if the answer contains
  a cross-claim; a third-party complaint, if a person who 
  was not an original party is summoned under the provision
  of Rule 14; and a third-party answer, if a third-party                    
  complaint is served.  No other pleading shall be allowed,
  except that the court may order a reply to an answer or a
  third party answer.

Mitchell makes a claim in her REPLY.

Mitchell writes,

  It continues to be Defendant's position that Plaintiffs'
  Complaint for Injunctive Relief ("Complaint") filed February
  28, 1997 must be dismissed.

This ANSWER contains a cross-claim answer. 

Namely, give the public the documents legally requested under 

the FOIA.

3  Mitchell writes,

  Plaintiffs make the sweeping assertion that the "29 cases
  in Mitchell's MEMORANDUM ... do NOT APPLY to the facts in this
  case.  However, they cite to absolutely no case law to support
  their position.

No citations to case law are required for the reason that

Plaintiffs EXHAUSTED THEIR ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES, as stated

by NSA deputy director William P. Crowell.

Plaintiffs support their position by FACTS in this matter.

Mitchell attempts to force Plaintiffs to support the FACTS in 

this lawsuit with case law. 

Mitchell cited case law that applies ONLY when those seeking 

documents under the FOIA did NOT exhaust administrative 

remedies.

Mitchell's case law DOES NOT APPLY to this lawsuit for the 

reason that Plaintiffs DID EXHAUST ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES.

Lawyer Mitchell appears to attempt to apply the Nazi strategy  

   If you tell a big enough lie often enough, people
   will begin to believe it.

The lie Mitchell is attempting to convince readers of these

documents of is that Plaintiffs DID NOT exhaust administrative 

remedies.

Plaintiffs DID EXHAUST ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES.  NSA deputy

director and NSA FOIA/PA Appeals Authority William P. Crowell

writes 31 December 1996 

	Because the process of your request has not 			
	progressed to a point where there have been any 	
	initial, substantive Agency determination of the 	
	release or withholding of responsive records, I can 	
	offer you no administrative remedy.

4  Mitchell writes,

  The legal authority relied upon I the Memorandum in Support 
  of Defendant's Motion for Partial Dismissal and Motion for
  Summary Judgment (hereinafter referred to the "Memorandum"),
  provides clear legal basis for the Court to either dismiss
  Plaintiff's [sic] Complaint, or granting summary judgment to 
  Defendant as a matter of law.

Plaintiffs disagree.  Mitchell cites no case law to support

the above paragraph.

Rather Plaintiffs lawfully requested documents, mostly of 

KNOWN EXISTENCE AND LOCATION, and, as the Court may be aware

  When an administrative appeal is denied, a requester has
  the right to appeal the denial in court. A FOIA appeal 
  lawsuit can be filed in the U.S. District Court in the     
  district where the requester lives. The requester can also   
  file suit in the district where the documents are located or 
  in the District of Columbia. When a requester goes to court, 
  the burden of justifying the withholding of documents is on 
  the government. This is a distinct advantage for the 
  requester.
  
Mitchell wrongly seeks to have Defendant withhold the requested 

documents for the reason that she CLAIMS Plaintiffs have failed 

to exhaust administrative remedies.  

Bur Plaintiffs HAVE EXHAUSTED ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES as NSA 

former deputy director Crowell told Payne IN WRITING.

5  Mitchell writes,

  In Paragraphs 1-6 of Plaintiffs' Response, Plaintiffs appear
  to be claiming the Defendant has misrepresented this facts
  concerning Plaintiff Payne's Freedom of Information Act/
  Privacy Act("FOIA/PA") requests.  It is true that Plaintiff
  Payne did file two FOIA request with the National Security
  Agency ('NSA/Agency") and that NSA did not respond with the
  statutory time limit.  It is also true that Plaintiff Payne
  appealed with NSA the nonresponse to both requests and 
  subsequently received a letter dated 31 December 1997, from
  William P. Crowell, the Freedom on Information AC/Privacy
  Act appeals Authority.  Mr. Crowell stated, among other things
  that no administrative remedy could be offered at that time.

Lawyer Mitchell's "at that time" appears to be an argument that

Plaintiffs should wait indefinitely for NSA to produce requested

documents.  Plaintiffs exercise their rights and proceed to 

court as the law allows when administrative remedies have been

exhausted.

Mitchell UNSUCCESSFULLY ATTEMPTS to make a valid argument that 

Plaintiffs had to wait even longer AFTER ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES

WERE EXHAUSTED before filing a FOIA lawsuit.

6  Mitchell writes,

  Attachment 4 to Exhibit A, the Winch Declaration attached to
  Defendant's Memorandum.

NSA employee GARY W. WINCH [Winch], Director of Policy, made

a false statement under oath in an unsuccessful attempt to

reverse NSA deputy director Crowell's letter informing Payne

that administrative remedies were exhausted.

Winch's violation of the False Statement Act earned Winch

a criminal complaint affidavit file with selected magistrate

judge Antonin Scalia.

6  Mitchell writes,

  Despite the fact that Mr. Payne was clearly informed that he   
  could treat the letter from William P. Crowell as a denial of
  his appeal and he could proceed under 5 U.S.C. section 552 to
  seek judicial review of the determination, Mr. Payne did not
  proceed to exercise his right to file a civil lawsuit in the
  United States at that time.

Mitchell unsuccessfully attempts to make a valid argument that 

IMMEDIATELY UPON receiving Crowell's letter that Plaintiffs

were REQUIRED to file a lawsuit.  Mitchell cites no law to

support her argument.

The reason Mitchell cites no law is that the law does not

specify WHEN a plaintiff must file a lawsuit.

As the court may know 5 USC 552 states

  (B) On complaint, the district court of the United States
  in the district in which the complainant resides, or has his
  principal place of business, or in which the agency records     
  are situated, or in the District of Columbia, has jurisdiction 
  to enjoin the agency from withholding agency records and to 
  order the production of any agency records improperly withheld 
  from the complainant. In such a case the court shall determine  
  the matter de novo, and may examine the contents of such 
  agency records in camera to determine whether such records or 
  any part thereof shall be withheld under any of the exemptions 
  set forth in subsection (b) of this section, and the burden is 
  on the agency to sustain its action. In addition to any other 
  matters to which a court accords substantial weight, a court 
  shall accord substantial weight to an affidavit of an agency
  concerning the agency's determination as to technical
  feasibility under paragraph (2)(C) and subsection (b) and
  reproducibility under paragraph (3)(B).
    (C) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the
  defendant shall serve an answer or otherwise plead to any
  complaint made under this subsection within thirty days after
  service upon the defendant of the pleading in which such
  complaint is made, unless the court otherwise directs for good
  cause shown.

So Mitchell's argument that Plaintiffs were required to file

this lawsuit within a specific time after receiving Crowell's

letter must be dismissed as not supported by law.

7  Mitchell writes,

    In a letter dated 6 January 1997, Plaintiff Payne was       
  advised that his request for a waiver of fees had been denied
  and informed him of the estimate of the cost to search for the
  records concerning the algorithms.

NSA was clearly attempting to deny furnishing the requested 

documents by asking Payne for money for SEARCHING for the 

documents.  Payne worked with NSA implementing NSA crypto 

algorithms for about ten years.   Payne KNOWS WHO has 

documents and about WHERE the documents are located.

NO SEARCH IS REQUIRED.

Asking for fees to SEARCH is clearly a unintelligent ruse

to deny furnishing the legally requested documents.

8  Mitchell writes

  Attachment 5 to Exhibit A, the Winch Declaration attached
  to Defendant's Memorandum.  Once that letter was received,
  Mr. Payne was clearly on notice that NSA was continuing
  to process his FOIA request, and he was specifically 
  notified that if he did not agree with the fee determination,
  he could appeal in writing with 60 days to the NSA/CSS 
  Freedom of Information Act Appeals Authority.  He chose not
  to appeal the denial of the fee waiver nor did he pay the
  estimated costs.  Exhibit A, Winch Declaration, at 5, section
  14.

Payne is not required to appeal fee determination denial if 

Plaintiffs are NOT SUING OVER A FEE WAIVER DENIAL.

Mitchell cites no law to show that Payne is required to appeal

a FOIA fee denial before filing suit for legally requested

documents.

Winch wrote,

  The search cost estimate was $1,317.50, as computed in 
  accordance with DOD regulations.  Mr. Payne was informed
  that 2 hours of search would be conducted at no cost to
  him as required by the FOIA In accordance with its 
  regulations, NSA requires advance  payment of cost 
  exceeding $250 prior to initiating a search. Mr. Payne 
  was so informed in the Agency's 6 January letter and was 
  requested to pay the $1,267.50 (the remainder of the 
  estimated search costs) within 30 days.

Winch CLEARLY attempts to scam Payne by asking for $1,317.50

for a SEARCH.  No search is required.

Filing a lawsuit permits Discovery WITHOUT LEAVE OF THE COURT.

Discovery is used to located documents.

  Rule 26 (b)(1) 
 
  Parties may obtain discovery regarding any mater, not     
  privileged, which is relevant to the subject matter  
  involved in the pending action, whether it relates to the   
  claim or defense of the party seeking discovery or to the 
  claim or defense of any other party, including the existence,  
  description, nature, custody, condition, and LOCATION of any 
  books documents, or other tangible thing and the identity and 
  location of persons  have knowledge of any discoverable  
  matter. 

Economics of clearly wasting $1,317.50 or paying $125 for this

public internationally Internet-viewed lawsuit clearly favored 

the latter approach to get the lawfully requested documents.

9  Mitchell writes

    Despite Plaintiffs unsupported protestation to the contrary,
  the law is absolutely clear that when a requester elects not
  to go to court immediately -in this case, immediately after
  receiving the letter dated 31 December 1996 and before   
  receiving the letter dated 06 January 1997 - he must exhaust
  all administrative remedies within the agency.  Mr. Payne
  must have administratively exhausted the decision on the fee
  waiver decision.  Oglesby v. Department of the Army, 920 F2.d
  57, 61 (D.D.Cir. 1990); McDonnell v. United States of America,
  4 F.3d 1227, 1240 (3d Cir. 1993).  He is not do so.
  

 Mitchell cites no law to support her statement that Plaintiffs

are REQUIRED "to go to court immediately."  In fact, appearance

is that Mitchell has made another false statement under oath.
    
The fee $1,317.50 Winch requested for a search for documents

of known location, or whose location could be established

with Discovery, did not have to be appealed to exhaust 

administrative remedies.

Payne could have appealed the denial of waiver of fees but

chose not to because this was clearly a ploy on Winch's part

to cost Payne money.  And Mitchell cannot, because their is

no requirement, cite law to show that Payne is required

to appeal a fee waiver denial if Plaintiffs are not using

about fee waiver denial.

If Plaintiff's WISHED, which they did not, to sue for

fee waiver, then Payne would have had to appeal the denial

of FEE WAIVER to exhaust administrative remedies.

5 USC 552 4(A) states about a fee waiver denial lawsuit

  (vii) In any action by a requester regarding the waiver of
  fees under this section, the court shall determine the matter
  de novo: Provided, That the court's review of the matter shall
  be limited to the record before the agency.

But this lawsuit IS NOT ABOUT WAIVER OF FEES, it is about 

obtaining the lawfully requested documents.

Mitchell again attempts, unsuccessfully, to distort the law

by citing Oglesby and McDonnell where administrative remedies

were NOT exhausted.

This lawsuit is about obtaining documents.

Plaintiffs DID NOT sue for fee waiver denial.  Therefore,

no appeal of FEE WAIVER DENIAL was required.

10  Mitchell writes

    Plaintiffs not attempt to excuse Plaintiff Payne's failure
  to exhaust the administrative appeal process, by claiming that   
  the request for payment is a "ploy" to avoid providing
  the documents.  Plaintiff Payne asserts that he knows where   
  the records are located with NSA because of his association
  with the Agency during his employment with Sandia National
  Laboratory [sic] and, therefore, he maintains that no search
  is required.  Plaintiffs' Response, at 4 section 9.  Plaintiff
  Payne also asserts that even if he had paid the estimated
  costs, the Agency would not have produced the documents.
  Within the specified guiltiness, the FOIA allows an agency to
  assess fees for processing requests made under the Act and
  to require advance payment of estimated fees if it is 
  determined that the fees will exceed $250.  5 U.S.C section
  552(a)(4)(A)(i), (v).  The obligation is to conduct a search,
  the scope of which is reasonably calculated to lead to the 
  discovery of responsive records.  Under the law, there is no
  requirement that records actually be discovered in a search
  for which a requester pays.  OMB Fee Guidelines, 52 Fed. Reg.
  10,011, 10,018 (1987).  Even if Mr. Payne did know the 
  location of the records, (and Defendant certainly does not
  agree that he does),  The Agency would still have an 
  obligation under the law to conduct an adequate search.  
  Further, even if the records are found, they may still be 
  withheld under various FOIA exemptions.  In fact, the letter 
  from James P. Cavanaugh dated 06 January 1997, specifically 
  informed Mr. Payne that if any responsive records were found, 
  they would still have to be reviewed for releasibility and 
  that the records of this type most likely would be classified 
  or otherwise exempt from disclosure. Attachment F to Exhibit A
  to Defendant's Memorandum.
    Plaintiffs make an unsupported argument that because NSA
  did not respond to the FOIA requests within the allotted time,
  and because NSA failed to return the green return receipt
  cards, (Plaintiffs' Response, at 2 section 4),"[t]he law
  allows at requester to consider that his or her request has 
  been denied . . . [t]his permits the requester to file an
  administrative appeal."  Even if this statement were true,
  it has not bearing on the facts before the Court.  Plaintiff
  Payne did not timely file in Federal court prior to receiving
  the January 1997 letter from NSA informing him of the fee
  determination.  He may not pursue his action in Federal 
  court because he has not exhausted administrative remedies.

Mitchell again is incorrect.

Two issues can come before the court.

  1 Demand for documents illegally withheld under the FOIA.
  2 Demand for fee waiver.  

Text of both laws are reproduced in this ANSWER.

The lawsuit is about 1.  NOT 2.

Administrative remedies were exhausted as Crowell stated.

And Plaintiffs proceeded to court as permitted by law. 

Mitchell, as an officer of the court, has again violated

the False Statement Act again by presenting to the Court

and argument not relying on the facts of this case.

Plaintiffs did, in fact, EXHAUST ALL ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES

as required to proceed to court.

11  Michell states,

    The remainder of Plaintiffs Response, [Paragraphs 7-14]
  is filled with unrelated pieces of information from various
  sources, suppositions, assumptions, and accusations, all
  apparently designed to challenge the Agency's decision that
  to admit or deny the existence of the Iranian and Libyan
  messages and translations would reveal classified information.
  As discussed in some depth in Defendant's Memorandum, the
  Agency is accorded great deference in the area, and nothing
  Plaintiffs have presented rises to level of evidence to show
  "bad faith" by the Agency in it decision-making process.
  Halperin v. CIA, 629 F.2d 144, 148 (D.C. Cir. 1980).
    In addition, Plaintiffs appear to be claiming that 
  information concerning records of Iranian message traffic
  and translations has been put into the public domain by
  both former President Reagan and various authors or books and
  newspapers.  Plaintiffs bear the burden of "pointing to
  specific information in the public domain that appears to
  duplicate the information withheld." Afshar v. Department of
  State, 702 F2.d 1125, 1130 (D.D.C. 1989).  With regard to 
  classified material pertaining to national security concerns,
  court have held that unofficial leaks and public surmise can
  often be ignored by foreign governments that might perceive
  themselves to be harmed by disclosure; but official 
  acknowledgment may for a government to retaliate. Afshar,
  702 F.2d at 1131.
    Defendant submit that, in this case, all Plaintiffs have 
  done is identify a mishmash of information from various
  public sources, including the Internet, and then claim that
  if it is published in some manner, it must be true.  Such a
  conglomeration of information does nothing to satisfy 
  Plaintiff's burden in this regard.  Plaintiffs cannot point
  to any source which published the documentation which 
  Plaintiffs asserts exists:  NSA intercepted the Libyan message   
  and translations between January 21, 1980 and June 19, 1996.    
  In addition, generalized allegations that classified 
  information has been leaked to the media or otherwise made 
  available to the public will not defeat an Exemption 1 claim 
  under the FOIA. Executive Order 12958 section 1.2 (c); Public 
  Citizen v. Department of State, 11 F.3d 198, 201 (D.C. Cir. 
  1993).

Michell's statement,

  Plaintiffs cannot point to any source which published the 
  documentation which Plaintiffs asserts exists:  NSA 
  intercepted the Libyan message and translations between 
  January 21, 1980 and June 19, 1996.

is clearly false as the following Internet news story

attests.


  NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict 

                    by J. Orlin Grabbe 

One of the dirty little secrets of the 1980s is that the U.S. 
regularly provided Iraq's Saddam Hussein with top-secret 
communication intercepts by the U.S. National Security 
Agency (NSA). Consider the evidence. 

When in 1991 the government of Kuwait paid the public 
relations firm of Hill & Knowlton ten million dollars to drum up 
American war fever against the evil dictator Hussein, it 
brought about the end of a long legacy of cooperation 
between the U.S. and Iraq. Hill & Knowlton resurrected the 
World War I propaganda story about German soldiers 
roasting Belgian babies on bayonets, updated in the form 
of a confidential witness (actually the daughter of the
Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S.) who told Congress a tearful 
story of Iraqi soldiers taking Kuwaiti babies out of incubators 
and leaving them on the cold floor to die. President George 
Bush then repeated this fabricated tale in speeches ten times 
over the next three days. 

What is remarkable about this staged turn of events is that, 
until then, Hussein had operated largely with U.S. approval. 
This cooperation had spanned three successive 
administrations, starting with Jimmy Carter. As noted by 
John R. MacArthur, "From 1980 to 1988, Hussein had 
shouldered the burdenof killing about 150,000 Iranians, in 
addition to at least thirteen thousand of his own citizens, 
including several thousand unarmed Kurdish civilians, and in
the process won the admiration and support of elements of 
three successive U.S. Administrations" [1]. 

Hussein's artful slaughter of Iranians was aided by good 
military intelligence. The role of NSA in the conflict is an open 
secret in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. Only in this 
country has there been a relative news blackout, despite the 
fact that it was the U.S. administration that let the crypto cat 
out of the bag. 

First, U.S. President Ronald Reagan informed the world on 
national television that the United States was reading Libyan 
communications. This admission was part of a speech 
justifying the retaliatory bombing of Libya for its alleged 
involvement in the La Belle discotheque bombing in Berlin's
Schoeneberg district, where two U.S. soldiers and a Turkish 
woman were killed, and 200 others injured. Reagan wasn't 
talking about American monitoring of Libyan news 
broadcasts. Rather, his "direct, precise, and undeniable proof" 
referred to secret (encrypted) diplomatic communication
between Tripoli and the Libyan embassy in East Berlin. 

Next, this leak was compound by the U.S. demonstration that 
it was also reading secret Iranian communications. As reported 
in Switzerland's Neue Zurcher Zeitung, the U.S. provided the 
contents of encrypted Iranian messages to France to assist 
in the conviction of Ali Vakili Rad and Massoud Hendi for 
the stabbing death in the Paris suburb of Suresnes of the 
former Iranian prime minister Shahpour Bakhtiar and his 
personal secretary Katibeh Fallouch. [2] 

What these two countries had in common was they had 
both purchased cryptographic communication equipment from 
the Swiss firm Crypto AG.  Crypto AG was founded in 1952 
by the (Russian-born) Swedish cryptographer Boris Hagelin 
who located his company in Zug. Boris had created the
"Hagelin-machine", a encryption device similar to the German 
"Enigma". The Hagelin machine was used on the side of the 
Allies in World War II. 

Crypto AG was an old and venerable firm, and Switzerland 
was a neutral country. So Crypto AG's enciphering devices for 
voice communication and digital data networks were popular, 
and customers came from 130 countries. These included the 
Vatican, as well the governments of Iraq, Iran, and Libya. Such 
countries were naturally skeptical of cryptographic devices 
sold in many NATO countries, so turned to relatively neutral 
Switzerland for communication security. 

Iran demonstrated its suspicion about the source of the leaks, 
when it arrested Hans Buehler, a top salesman for Crypto AG, 
in Teheran on March 18, 1992. During his nine and a half 
months of solitary confinement in Evin prison in Teheran, 
Buehler was questioned again and again whether he had
leaked Teheran's codes or Libya's keys to Western powers. 
Luckily Buehler didn't know anything.   He in fact believed in 
his own sales pitch that Crypto AG was a neutral company 
and its equipment was the best. They were Swiss, after all. [3] 

Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for Buehler's 
release in January 1993, then promptly fired him once they 
had reassured themselves that he hadn't revealed anything 
important under interrogation, and because Buehler had begun 
to ask some embarrassing questions. Then reports appeared on
Swiss television, Swiss Radio International, all the major 
Swiss papers, and in German magazines like Der Spiegel. Had 
Crypto AG's equipment been spiked by Western intelligence 
services? the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4]. 

Swiss television traced the ownership of Crypto AG to a 
company in Liechtenstein, and from there back to a trust 
company in Munich. A witness appearing on Swiss television 
explained the real owner was the German government--the 
Federal Estates Administration. [5] 

According to Der Spiegel, all but 6 of the 6000 shares of Crypto 
AG were at one time owned by Eugen Freiberger, who resided 
in Munich and was head of the Crypto AG managing board 
in 1982. Another German, Josef Bauer, an authorized tax 
agent of the Muenchner Treuhandgesellschaft KPMG, and 
who was elected to the managing board in 1970, stated that his 
mandate had come from the German company Siemens. Other 
members of Crypto AG's management had also worked at 
Siemens. Was the German secret service, the 
Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), hiding behind the Siemens' 
connection? 

So it would seem. Der Spiegel reported that in October 1970, 
a secret meeting of the BND had discussed how the Swiss 
company Graettner could be guided into closer cooperation 
with Crypto AG, or could even merged with it. The BND 
additionally considered how "the Swedish company Ericsson
could be influenced through Siemens to terminate its own 
cryptographic business." [6] 

A former employee of Crypto AG reported that he had to 
coordinate his developments with "people from Bad 
Godesberg". This was the location of the "central office for 
encryption affairs" of the BND, and the service instructed 
Crypto AG what algorithms to use to create the codes. The 
employee also remembers an American "watcher", who 
strongly demanded the use of certain encryption methods. 

Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG often. A 
memorandum of a secret workshop at Crypto AG in August 
1975, where a new prototype of an encryption device was 
demonstrated, mentions the participation of Nora L. 
Mackebee, an NSA cryptographer. Motorola engineer 
Bob Newman says that Mackebee was introduced to him 
as a "consultant". Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG 
in the seventies in developing a new generation of
electronic encryption machines. The Americans "knew Zug 
very well and gave travel tips to the Motorola people for the 
visit at Crypto AG," Newman told Der Spiegel. 

Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto AG 
enciphering process, developed in cooperation  with the NSA 
and the German company Siemans, involved secretly 
embedding the decryption key in the cipher text. Those who 
knew where to look could monitor the encrypted 
communication, then extract the decryption key that was also 
part of the transmission, and recover the plain text message. 
Decryption of a message by a knowledgeable third
party was not any more difficult than it was for the intended 
receiver. (More than one method was used. Sometimes the 
algorithm was simply deficient, with built-in exploitable 
weaknesses.) 

Crypto AG denies all this, of course, saying such reports are 
"pure invention". 

What information was provided to Saddam Hussein exactly? 
Answers to this question are currently being sought in a 
lawsuit against NSA in New Mexico, which has asked to see 
"all Iranian messages and translations between January 1, 1980 
and June 10, 1996". [7] 

The passage of top-secret communications intelligence to 
someone like Saddam Hussein brings up other questions. 
Which dictator is the U.S. passing top secret messages to 
currently? Jiang Zemin? Boris Yeltsin? 

Will Saddam Hussein again become a recipient of NSA 
largess if he returns to the mass slaughter of Iranians? What 
exactly is the purpose of NSA anyway? 

One more question: Who is reading the Pope's 
communications? 

              Bibliography 

[1] John R. MacArthur, Second Front: Censorship and 
Propaganda in the Gulf War, Hill and Wang, New York, 1992. 

[2] Some of the background of this assassination can be found 
in "The Tehran Connection," Time Magazine, March 21, 1994. 

[3] The Buehler case is detailed in Res Strehle, Verschleusselt: 
der Fall Hans Beuhler, Werd Verlag, Zurich, 1994. 

[4] "For years, NSA secretly rigged Crypto AG machines so 
that U.S. eavesdroppers could easily break their codes, 
according to former company employees whose story is 
supported by company documents," "No Such Agency, Part 4: 
Rigging the Game," The Baltimore Sun, December 4, 1995. 

[5] Reported in programs about the Buehler case that were 
broadcast on Swiss Radio International on May 15, 1994 and 
July 18, 1994. 

[6] "Wer ist der befugte Vierte?": Geheimdienste unterwandern 
den Schutz von Verschlusselungsgeraten," Der Spiegel 36, 
1996. 

[7] U.S. District Court for the District of New Mexico, 
William H. Payne, Arthur R. Morales, Plaintiffs, v. Lieutenant 
General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, Director of National 
Security Agency, National Security Agency, Defendant, 
CIV NO 97 0266 SC/DJS. 

November 2, 1997
Web Page: http://www.aci.net/kalliste/

Michell attempts to make a valid argument that withholding of 

intercepted message is proper because they are classified.

Mitchell references EO 12958 1.2,

  c) Classified information shall not be declassified  
  automatically as a result of any unauthorized disclosure of 
  identical or similar information.
  
Plaintiffs continue to believe, classification abuse aside, that

NSA should come clean about it bungled spy sting on Iran

and settle with its victims.  And US courts should not help NSA 

hide.

Clearly NSA getting caught in, according the Baltimore Sun,

the most "audacious" spy sting in its history, spiking crypto 

units so that the crypto key is transmitted with cipher text 

falls under EO 12958, Sec. 1.8. Classification Prohibitions and 

Limitations.

  (a) In no case shall information be classified in order to:
  (1) conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative 
  error;
  (2) prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or 
  agency;
  (3) restrain competition; or
  (4) prevent or delay the release of information that does not 
  require protection in the interest of national security. ...

Not section 1.2.

Clearly, NSA getting caught is one of the greatest blunders in 

intelligence history fall under 1.8 (1) and (2).  

And also may account for the greatest number of dead victims.

But this is one part of this of this lawsuit. To get a help

get a count of the dead and maimed.

12 Mitchell writes

    Plaintiffs' allegation in the Response at Paragraph 9,
  at 4, that sanctions under the discovery rules might finally
  cause the Agency to produce some of the requested records is   
  fallacious.  This is a FOIA action; the purpose is to   
  determine whether  or not the Plaintiffs are properly in
  Federal Court, and whether or not the documents requested
  have been properly withheld under FOIA law.  It is not 
  appropriate to use the discovery rules contained in the 
  Federal Rules of Civil Procedure to bypass the requirements
  of the FOIA.

Mitchell is incorrect in her statement, " This is a FOIA 

action ..."

This is a LAWSUIT which WILL BE conducted under the Federal 

Rules of Civil Procedure.  Even in New Mexico.

Mitchell attempts to inject the rules of the FOIA into 

the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.  Plaintiffs will continue

to object.

The Plaintiffs have EXHAUSTED ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES and are

in court to obtain documents illegally withheld.  Plaintiffs

will use the tools available, including Discovery, under the

Federal Rules of Civil Procedure to locate and get the 

documents.

Plaintiffs ARE NOT in court to sue about waiver of fees.

13  Mitchell concludes

    Plaintiffs' Response contains no legal support for their
  contention that they are entitled to the requested 
  information.  Contrary to their assertion, the legal citations
  contained Defendant's Memorandum ARE most certainly relevant,
  because they contain the legal basis on which this Court must
  base it decision.  Plaintiffs' Complaint must be dismissed,
  or in the alternative, summary judgment must be granted to
  defendant.

Mitchell cites no legal support for her arguments.  Rather 

Mitchell has UNSUCCESSFULLY ATTEMPTED to make Plaintiffs'

lawsuit into a fee waiver denial lawsuit.  This is not a

fee waiver lawsuit. This is a lawsuit to obtain lawfully

requested documents.
  
			CONCLUSIONS

1  Replace judges Svet and Campos because these judges

have demonstrated, IN WRITING, they do not follow the 

Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

2  Remove lawyer Mitchell from the lawsuit for criminal 

violation of the False Statement Act. And violation of

the lawyers Rules of Professional Conduct.

Specifically Mitchell's violated in her REPLY 

  In all professional functions a lawyer should be competent,
  prompt, and diligent.


  A lawyer should use the law's procedures only for legitimate
  purposes and not to harass or intimidate other.

  [i]t is also a lawyer's duty to uphold the legal process.

  Failure to comply with an obligation or prohibition imposed
  by rule is a basis for invoking the disciplinary process.
  
  A lawyer shall not bring or defend a proceeding, or assert
  or controvert and issue therein, unless there is a basis for
  doing so that is not frivolous, which includes a good faith
  argument for an extension, modification or reversal of 
  existing law.

  A lawyer shall not knowingly:

  (1) make a false statement of material fact of law to a
  tribunal.

  (4) offer evidence that the lawyer knows to be false.

   A. make a false statement of material fact or law to a third
   person; ...

  16-804.  Misconduct
  C. engage in conduct involving dishonest, fraud, deceit or
  misrepresentation;
  B. commit a criminal act that reflects adversely on the 
  lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer
  in other respects.

3  Have replacement judges ORDER Defendant to immediately 

produce documents in machine-readable format for publication on 

Internet. 	In preparation for settlement of  this unfortunate 

bungled spy sting.  And analysis of 'deficient' NSA 

cryptographic algorithm work designed to get the US government 

out of the cryptography business.

Respectfully submitted, 
 
 

                    _________________________ 
                    William H. Payne             	   	     
                    13015 Calle de Sandias NE          	     
                    Albuquerque, NM 87111              	     

 
 			    Telephone approval
                    Morales in New Orleans
                    _________________________				 
                    Arthur R. Morales                            
                    1024 Los Arboles NW                         
                    Albuquerque, NM 87107                        
 
                    Pro se litigants 
 
 
               CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE 
 
I HEREBY CERTIFY that a copy of the foregoing memorandum
was mailed to Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, 
Director,  National Security Agency, National Security Agency, 
9800 Savage Road, Fort George G. Meade, MD 20755-6000 
and hand delivered to Jan E Mitchell, Assistant US Attorney, 
525 Silver SW, ABQ, NM 87102 this Friday November 28, 1997. 




18







From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 28 09:15:11 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:15:11 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <199711281606.IAA10607@f111.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <347EF808.7770@dev.null>



Ralph Hotmail wrote:
> 
> In a moment of boredom, I took the opportunity to check into "Denizen".
> I also read his posts under a number of names to the critical mass
> mailing list and their replies. 

> In saner moments, Beckjord runs the UFO and Bigfoot Museum. 
> 
> This is the person who wants to use BCC from an anonymous remailer  to
> get his opinion to the subscribers of the Critical Mass list.  The
> message is simple - if you help him out,you can kiss your remailer
> goodbye.

Perhaps Ralph could help the anonymous remailer 'cause' by providing
remailer operators with a list of the 'bad' people who should not
be allowed to use remailers to promote their 'wrong' views.
Maybe Mr. Hotmail could also provide a list of 'bad' words and
'bad' subjects that should be blocked, as well.

I suggest blocking Ralphie 'Kiss Your Remailer Goodbye' Hotmail.
Of course, I'm a Nazi fuck...

NaziFuckMonger






From lutz at belenus.iks-jena.de  Fri Nov 28 09:17:03 1997
From: lutz at belenus.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:17:03 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0 ConsensuS?? -- is it usable?
In-Reply-To: <19971125.060408.8463.10.goddesshera@juno.com>
Message-ID: <slrn67tug3.an.lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de>



* Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>Do you think that it is a good idea to migrate from pgp 2.6.3 to
>pgp 5.0 now?

No.






From goddesshera at juno.com  Fri Nov 28 09:28:39 1997
From: goddesshera at juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:28:39 +0800
Subject: Hat3 gr0ups
Message-ID: <19971128.102422.12887.2.goddesshera@juno.com>



could any kind soul please repost the message on hate groups and
how mentioning the founding fathers constitutes a hateg roup.



thanks


This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera at juno.com>.






From nobody at nsm.htp.org  Fri Nov 28 09:32:23 1997
From: nobody at nsm.htp.org (nobody at nsm.htp.org)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:32:23 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0 ConsensuS?? -- is it usable?
Message-ID: <19971128172143.29047.qmail@nsm.htp.org>



At 17:06 97/11/28 GMT, Lutz Donnerhacke wrote:
> * Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> >Do you think that it is a good idea to migrate from pgp 2.6.3 to
> >pgp 5.0 now?
> 
> No.

Yes.






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Nov 28 09:59:35 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:59:35 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711271414.IAA26461@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <2XZVge35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> writes:

> > Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
> > From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> > Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 23:55:33 EST
>
> > This has no crypto relevance.
>
> Actualy it does, it's just that the reason for this discussion has escaped
> your blipvert mentality. The reason this is relevant was the claim made by
> others that had the US *not* entered WWII then the situation would be
> significantly different than now. In particular it would be a more positive
> results. I draw exception to this and am willing to debate the point.

This STILL has no crypto relevance.  Moreover you can't read, don't know
any history, and resort to personal attacks when your ignorance is exposed.

> > The japs didn't join the axis out fo the blue. The US was picking on the Ja
> > back at the Washington conference in 1921/2,
>
> It's interesting that as a direct results of this conference the Japanese
> took the time to put down their plans to secure (ie take over) the western
> Pacific. It relied on their typical "Great All-out Battle" strategy. An
> important point in this strategy was luring the US fleet into Japanese
> waters and defeating it.

Not true. Japs had been trying to expand ever since the meiji revolution:
grabbed hokkaido from russia in 1875 (without a fight), taiwan et al from
china in 1895, more land from russia in 1905, annexed Korea in 1910, attacked
germany and took most of german possessions in the pacitic uring ww1. Their
strategy did not change in 1922.

The only thing that happened at the washington conference of 1921/2 was that
the US turned around and instead of praising the japs as their ww1 ally, it
suddenly started demonizing the japs, just like Noriega or Saddam Hussein
suddenly went from US allies to Ultimate Evil. The US also forced GB to
renounce their 20-year-old alliance with the japs.

It would be reasonable for the japs to revise their strategy to be more
anti-US after 1922, but I actually see no eviedence of this.

> > he bulding up the navy, building new bases on Hawaii, Guam, Midway, Samoa,
> > etc, (in violation of the Washington conference), grabbing small pacific
> > islands that no one claimed before (jervis, Howland, Phoebe, Palmira).
>
> Actualy most of these islands were originaly Dutch, German, or Spanish.
> For example, the Philipines were Spanish.

You can't read, can you? A typical product of US education system.

1. The US specifically promised in 1922 not to build naval bases on Guam,
Wake, Phillippines, etc. FDR renounced that promise and built huge bases and a
huge navy, while whining about japs violating the various arms limitation
treaties (which the japs did only after the US violated theirs).

2. Palmira et al were no-man's-island, not claimed by anyone. FDR sweeped up
the unclaimed islands as part of his stated anti-jap strategy.

3. The closest Dutch poseesssions were Indonesia - totally irrelevant.

4. Philippines used to belong to Spain; the locals pretty much overthrew
the Spanish with little US help; the US then waged a bloody war suppressing
the locals and turning Philippines into its colony.

The uniformed shit that rots at the arlington national cemetary are the bloody
murderers who massacred hundreds of unarmed phillippine civilians to provide
the us with another colony in the pacific. I virtually piss on their graves;
let Stick Willy sell all the burial sites he wants there.

> Vulis, this hasn't dawned on you yet but none the less, you are actualy
> agreeing with my position that it isn't possible for the US to have kept
> out of the war. The other participants simply didn't have the resources or
> the system to organize them with otherwise.

Your position is with your head up your ass, since you clearly don't know
what you're talking about. FDR was pulling stunts designed to pull the US
into the war in Europe, like seizing German and italian ships in US ports,
but he succeeded in proviking the japs faster. The US would have stayed out
of the war in Europe much longer under a republican administration, and
probably never would have had a war with Japan.

Since the US contribution to the European war effort was about the same in
1940/41 and 1942/44 (up until the invasion of Normandy), it would not have
changed the outcome of the war, but domestically the US would have been
less of a polica state than it became under FDR.

> > > period. Can't say that I've ever seen this issue in anything I've read.
> >
> > According to my books, the US stopped all Jap immigration into US and its
> > possession (i.e. Hawaii, Philippines, ec) as of May 1, 1925.
>
> Which books Vulis, books you have access to or books that you wrote? I made
> a request for more specificity. Which books in particular are you refering
> to?

References he wants. :-) Very good: _Spravochnik Soedinennyje Shtaty Ameriki_
Moscow: Ogiz, 1946, p. 284:

"Poskol'ku odnoj iz form japonskoj `ekspansii javljalas' usilennaja
immigratzija japontzev v SSHA i ikh kolonial'nyje vladenija - Gavaji,
Filippiny i dr., pravitel'stvo SSHA stalo prinimat' mery k ogranicheniju
`toj immigratzii, a 1/V 1925 g. vovse zapretilo ejo."

(Oops! You can't read languages other than English, can you? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Nov 28 10:17:04 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:17:04 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <347EF808.7770@dev.null>
Message-ID: <1u4Vge36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



TruthMonger <tm at dev.null> writes:

> Ralph Hotmail wrote:
> >
> > In a moment of boredom, I took the opportunity to check into "Denizen".
> > I also read his posts under a number of names to the critical mass
> > mailing list and their replies.
>
> > In saner moments, Beckjord runs the UFO and Bigfoot Museum.
> >
> > This is the person who wants to use BCC from an anonymous remailer  to
> > get his opinion to the subscribers of the Critical Mass list.  The
> > message is simple - if you help him out,you can kiss your remailer
> > goodbye.
>
> Perhaps Ralph could help the anonymous remailer 'cause' by providing
> remailer operators with a list of the 'bad' people who should not
> be allowed to use remailers to promote their 'wrong' views.
> Maybe Mr. Hotmail could also provide a list of 'bad' words and
> 'bad' subjects that should be blocked, as well.
>
> I suggest blocking Ralphie 'Kiss Your Remailer Goodbye' Hotmail.
> Of course, I'm a Nazi fuck...
>
> NaziFuckMonger


Ralphie should get together with David Smith, the operator of the bureau42
remailer, who filters out whatever contents he doesn't like. Anything
coming out of bureau42 remailer is personally approved by David Smith
who bears full civil and criminal responsibility for the contents he approves.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From tm at dev.null  Fri Nov 28 10:17:49 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:17:49 +0800
Subject: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <2XZVge35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <347F06BC.10BC@dev.null>



Kill 'em all, and let Dimitri sort 'em out.

TM






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Nov 28 11:58:28 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 03:58:28 +0800
Subject: Junger v. Daley - USA Brief
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971128194526.00709888@pop.pipeline.com>



Thanks to Peter Junger we offer the USA's second 
cross-motion for summary judgment of November 18:

   http://jya.com/pdj5.htm  (112K)







From jugs at verses.xxxjournal.net  Fri Nov 28 12:21:29 1997
From: jugs at verses.xxxjournal.net (Jugs)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 04:21:29 +0800
Subject: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
Message-ID: <199711282019.PAA07426@verses.xxxjournal.net>



Hello From Monique, If you are under 18 don't go any further.....

You are receiving this email because your name has been submitted to a
adult maillist..If you would like to be removed please follow the
instructions below.

http://www.DoMeLive.com

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want. Our girls are all under 20 and are ready to please you in any way
you want. You tell them what to do and they do it.

Our new technology allows you to see our girls live and interact
with them right in your NETSCAPE 2.2+, INTERNET EXPLORER 3.02, and AOL FOR
WINDOWS 95 BROWSERS......

Your not going to believe your eyes, our picture is so large and so clear
you'll be able to count the hairs on our pussies...that's if we had any
hair down there....

For a limited time only, 7 minutes FREE to each new customer

Don't cyber blind when you can DO ME LIVE..We'll do anything to keep you
coming back....

http://www.DoMeLive.com








From jugs at verses.xxxjournal.net  Fri Nov 28 12:34:20 1997
From: jugs at verses.xxxjournal.net (Jugs)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 04:34:20 +0800
Subject: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
Message-ID: <199711282019.PAA07448@verses.xxxjournal.net>



Hello From Monique, If you are under 18 don't go any further.....

You are receiving this email because your name has been submitted to a
adult maillist..If you would like to be removed please follow the
instructions below.

http://www.DoMeLive.com

LIVE LIVE LIVE....Florida Beach Babes perform for you live right in your
browser. That's right live horny teenage girls, who will do ANYTHING you
want. Our girls are all under 20 and are ready to please you in any way
you want. You tell them what to do and they do it.

Our new technology allows you to see our girls live and interact
with them right in your NETSCAPE 2.2+, INTERNET EXPLORER 3.02, and AOL FOR
WINDOWS 95 BROWSERS......

Your not going to believe your eyes, our picture is so large and so clear
you'll be able to count the hairs on our pussies...that's if we had any
hair down there....

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Don't cyber blind when you can DO ME LIVE..We'll do anything to keep you
coming back....

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From schear at lvdi.net  Fri Nov 28 13:02:29 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 05:02:29 +0800
Subject: Continuing coverage of Internet gaming
Message-ID: <v03102800b0a34f43edb5@[208.129.55.202]>



Will Roulette Wheel Land on 'Ban' or 'Tax'?
http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/8479.html

Net Gaming Operator Wins Court Round
http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/8807.html







From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Nov 28 13:37:06 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 05:37:06 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0 ConsensuS?? -- is it usable?
In-Reply-To: <slrn67tug3.an.lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de>
Message-ID: <199711282127.QAA27009@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <slrn67tug3.an.lutz at belenus.iks-jena.de>, on 11/28/97 
   at 05:06 PM, lutz at belenus.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke) said:

>* Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>>Do you think that it is a good idea to migrate from pgp 2.6.3 to
>>pgp 5.0 now?

>No.

Care to justify that?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNH826o9Co1n+aLhhAQJt6QP/YqdAhhKkUQg3O3mQ75ppSGGQV+LV21i3
BP0BbTu9dNtvxhlfgVP6qAQnGew+xINN+LfWQNceXgwjGcuHuMJl/NG6pQzYrQLE
h5y7pA6A5e4IRAqX5XxpvPFkiD4mS0CstbdeKetZBOs4HmOHMR4EYpGUpxY2pX7C
Mc1ckCEoIgs=
=3PD1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From emc at wire.insync.net  Fri Nov 28 13:59:11 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 05:59:11 +0800
Subject: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
In-Reply-To: <199711282019.PAA07426@verses.xxxjournal.net>
Message-ID: <199711282112.PAA13434@wire.insync.net>



Monique writes:

> Our new technology allows you to see our girls live and interact
> with them right in your NETSCAPE 2.2+, INTERNET EXPLORER 3.02, and AOL FOR
> WINDOWS 95 BROWSERS......

One amusing note.  To buy time on this "service," one is presented with a
form which requires one to fill in name, phone number, address, credit
card number, and other personal information.  Hitting "Submit"  sends this
form in cleartext to their web server.

On the bottom of the form is printed... 

"All Live Sex Sales are processed using CyberCash Transaction Encryption" 

While you're counting "Monique"s pussy hairs, the owner of the upstream
router will be doing his Christmas shopping on your Mastercard. :)

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Nov 28 14:01:44 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 06:01:44 +0800
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: </ExNHxdX+kw2EXoXkBNHZw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v04002718b0a47f8735aa@[139.167.130.248]>



At 12:10 am -0500 on 11/21/97, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer emetted (see?
wasn't *that* easier than what you used?):


> Aw, bullshit, Bob! You were wrong when you started this fuckfest
> and you're digging yourself deeper and deeper with every post.
> There was a time when I thought you had a brain and a modicum of
> common sense, but you've thoroughly disabused me of that fantasy.

Don't get your apparently fantastically-abused panties in a bunch.

Frankly, I don't give a squalling, um, fuck, what you, or anyone else,
thinks about me. In fact, given the heaping helping of offal you've offered
below, the worse you think about me, the better, I guess I'd say.

I'll write what I want, when I want, and post it where I want to. That's
what your killfile is for, bunky. If you don't like what I say so much, use
it.

> I once visited your website and thought, "This guy is cool!"
> Geez, I'm embarrassed to admit that now.

Good. Stay that way. I really don't give a damn. But, be careful:
Embarrased, red faces like yours make great helicopter targets, I'm told.
:-). Even in the dark...

> You've taken Tim's comments out of context and done yeoman work
> for the enemy.

No, I haven't. The "enemy"? So, it's a "war", huh? Sounds like you need to
go to work, yourself, (for a living?) and find out how reality actually
functions a while, before you go declaring "war" on the "enemy" at the drop
of a hat.


Folks, the "war" ain't here, okay? It ain't gonna be here anytime soon,
either. Anyone who wants to go out and start it, as Tim has seeming
delusions of, is really stupid, or worse, nuts.


> If (or when) they ever find an excuse to bother
> him, they won't be showing _his_ posts to the jury -- they'll
> be showing _yours_, you clueless fuckwit.

Nope. What they'll probably do is go pester him about something clueless,
something trivial and probably unrelated, and he'll show up at the door,
expecting MIB (Men in Balaclavas), and start a shootout. That's the
accidental version, anyway.

Of course, if Tim stays holed up, playing Old Man of the Mountain, and
nothing happens because nobody's listening to him anymore, maybe someday
he'll go out and *make* something happen, of course. Nonetheless, his
writing here won't do anything but be an excuse for someone to go harrass
him, probably provoking something accidental, particularly if he's waiting
for them with loaded weapons. See above.

> This is the age of "social convictions," in case you haven't
> noticed because you've been living in an e-cave. They don't
> prove cases anymore; they show that you're a "bad actor."
> It's all done with PR, whether totally in the press or partly
> in a courtroom. The first piece of paper the feds send out
> when they attack someone is a press release. The victim often
> first learns he's in trouble when the reporters call.

Which, of course, proves my earlier point which started this very thread.
Tim appears to be deliberately provoking this kind of crap, whatever his
purposes.

"Please, B'rer Fox, don't throw me into that briar patch!". I said that,
remember?

You'll also remember that I called it utter bullshit then. To paraphrase
myself. :-).


It's the day after Thanksgiving, folks. Do you know where *your* black
helicopters are? I thought so...

Give me a break...


There's one line in the latest Jim Bell continuance which says it all. It's
the Judge's clear statement that he's clueless about all this crypto stuff,
and that he's going away to think about it a bit. Now, *that* seems to me
to be an open invitation to someone, if legally possible, to go and
straighten him out on the subject of cryptography, as a friend of the
court, or something. A lawyer who knows about crypto could probably just go
do this, and make all this Guilt-by-Cryptography crap go away. And, if
there *had* been someone there from the beginning, we wouldn't be having
all this built up FUD-potential when they send Bell up the river for
whatever they can think of, just because he's had the "brilliance" to
combine Tim's quite old idea of cryptoanarchic assasination markets with
the stuff the Idea Futures folks are doing for fun. Cheez. Whadda
brainstorm that musta been...

Now, I may be whistling past the graveyard, here, but.... naaawww,
forgadaboudit, I'm not an idiot, and the Apaco-FUD around here isn't going
to get to *me* either, so I'll go out on a limb, here, with a prediction:

--->>>Those "black helicopters" are never going to land, boys and girls.
Especially as far as the Bell case is concerned. Ever. <<<---


Oddly enough, I expect that Bell *is* singing, ironically, like a canary.
Hence the sealed indictments, or whatever. Given all the goodies they found
him playing with besides AP, they were probably listening to everything he
said, hanging on his every word. Most attention he ever got in his life, I
bet. Until, of course, they figured out that his "conspiracy" was just Jim
Bell, that all the "co-conspiritors" he's "fingering" never wanted anything
to do with him.

Including Tim, who's gone on record here, many times, as saying what a
one-track, waste-of-time, loon Bell was.

Until lately, anyway. Now Bell's some kind of hero, or something. Go
figure. Maybe Tim's missing all the attention Bell's getting. Or something.


> Maybe you're too young, child.

Spoken like a child, yourself. Child, grow thyself?

> The world is not figuring things
> out fast enough or on a large enough scale to offset the
> accelerating advance of the state. Tim has been around long
> enough to have figured out that the statists have pissed away
> his entire lifetime making him wait for things to get "figured
> out." You have no respect for your elders, who have gotten
> bored over more things than you have yet learned. You should
> be spanked and made to sit in the corner until you can behave.

Bink. (The diminuative of "bunk", of course. :-))

Look. This kind of "I Have Seen the Golden Age of America, and it's Over,
Son" crap is just that. Crap.

The world, over all, is a *much* better place than it was, 100, 50, or even
10 years ago. It will continue to get better. Science kind of does that, if
you haven't noticed. If something like the state increases its control so
much that nobody feels free anymore, then eventually people will get fed up
and deal with it. Usually with technology, like cryptography, and with the
market, and I certainly count emmigration as a market function. Technology
and the market killed communism. And, frankly, I look at politics as a
trailing market indicator, cementing what the market and technology  have
already done.

So, when the political situation forgets to pay attention to market and
technological reality, you get a military solution, with an actual
revolution, like we had in this country, twice, if you count the Civil War.
Though, as I've said before, the colonists in America were already free (in
the market and technology sense) and didn't know it, and the Confederacy
wasn't free (in the same sense) and thought they were. In both cases,
reality, i.e., technology and the market, wasn't optional.


So, I think the economic and technological incompetance of the very idea of
communism, if not hierarchical vertical integration itself, is what is
causing most of what we call "revolutions" these days. And, maybe, the
collapse of those socialist, or the vertically integrated and centralized
bureaucratic, components of the American system will cause the kinds of
separatist problems seen in the other other monolithic megastates like
Russia and China as well. But, frankly, I just don't think so. There is too
much of a habit of freedom in America still, even with all the state's
attempts of social control out there -- which, I think, most people ignore,
or better, can't afford to pay attention to -- for that kind of crap to
happen. So, here in the heart of the Socialist States of America,
technology is making, or keeping, people free, and they just don't know it,
yet. Or probably care about it, for that matter.

I also think that out political leaders are just figuring that out. The NSA
only makes halfhearted attempts to control cryptography anymore, for
instance. Robert Morris asks, wryly, "How much do you trust your
government?" when asked about key escrow. The state department has gotten
out of the export control business, fobbing it off onto the Commerce
Department, who's only got the FBI to listen to. The FBI is apoplectic, but
frankly, they'll figure out that they're pissing in the wind just like NSA
and State were, hopefully before anyone gets hurt.

After the FBI, who's left, right?


> Tell that to the Athenians and hundreds if not thousands of
> groups since who have been surprised when their worlds
> collapsed. Tell that to the Austrians and Germans of the
> 1920's. Tell that to the piles of bones in Cambodia.

Hoooo... Oh, boy. Yet Another History Lesson. I'm gonna *love* this...


Well, let's see, shall we? (Monty and Jim Choate can check me here, except
that I'm not sure "American Aurora" goes back that far. Oh, well, there's
always "History Your Mother Never Told You, I guess. :-))

The Athenian government, the small minority of the population who had any
now-romantic notion of "democracy" at all (when you factor in "barbarians",
slaves, and women), had a tidy little empire, paid for with other people's
money (the Delian league). But, it only lasted a little while after the
Persian war, when the money ran out, most of it being spent on fun toys
like rebuilding the Acropolis. Then, all the other Greek city states hired
the Spartans to kick Athenian Butt after the Athenians were a little too
aggressive with a tax delinquent state, killing all the men in said state,
and sending the women and children into slavery. Is that America? Maybe,
but probably not. And, so, your point is?

The Austrian and German governments, by starting a war they couldn't win,
were made to pay war reparations they couldn't afford, which they tried to
pay for by printing money they didn't have, instead of letting their
economies alone to solve the problem by themselves. Then their economies
collapsed, and political radicals with, of course, much less economic
experience, and considerably less diplomatic experience :-), took over the
government and went to war on all their neighbors. Is that America? Maybe,
but probably not. And, so, your point is?

The Cambodians were doing just fine until a superpower conflict erupted
next door, dragging them, unfortunately, onto the side of the losing one
(Us), causing allies of the winning superpower (Them) to overthrow a
moderately stable political and social system and replace it with one
having even less of an understanding of economics, much less diplomatic
experience, than the one instituted by the people who took over Germany and
Austria 40 years before. They then, vaguely reminiscent of Germany and
Austria, proceeded to go to war on their own population, especially those
people with economic, and probably diplomatic, experience. Is that America?
Maybe :-), but probably not. And, so, your point is?

Of course, we could then turn around and look at Rome, say, which
functioned for several hundred years off and on, and, technically, didn't
go away until the fall of Constantinople in the 15th century. Or, say,
Britain, which has still been kicking around for almost a thousand years,
empire or not, but, hey, who's counting, hmmm? Anyway, are those two
America? Maybe, but probably not. And, so, my point is?

Well, lost, actually. Just like yours was. :-).


> You
> suffer from the subjectivity of youth.

I'm honored you think so. I'm almost 40 now. A veritable old fart, given
the probable mean age of this list. However, Tim (Leary, that is) *did* say
that adulthood is terminal, and I endeavor to follow that dictum, while
ignoring much of his other silliness. (Hmmm, sounds familiar...) So, maybe,
I'm just shovelling age against the tide, as it were, and should grow up.
Certainly my peers tell me so. :-)

Perhaps, however, you're projecting a bit, yourself? Naaaaw...


> The times into
> which we are headed have every promise of being the very most
> "interesting" in human history.

More apacolyptic claptrap. I have an idea. Go prove how "interesting" they
are. Tell me what happened when you get back. Don't let the door hit you on
the way out...

> I for one won't feel a bit
> compensated by your future whines that you "wuz wrong!"

That's easy to fix. Put me in your killfile. Frankly, I don't think *youz*
ever gonna be right, myself...

> If you had two brain cells to rub together you would have
> taken your lumps in Tim's first brushoff and shut up.

<pffft> *Feel* your anger Luke Skywalker...<pfft>

> He's
> got a right to his position and you haven't got shit.

One double negative, excretory or not, doesn't make a right, right? (bzzzt!
Nope, two "rights" don't make a wrong either. :-))

> What
> you will have is a place in someone's black book if it turns
> out that your characterizations of Tim's posts ever turn out
> to be fuel for the enemy's meatgrinder.

Ah. Someone hiding behind a remailer threatens someone whose address is at
the bottom of his every post... Mark away, little boy, mark away. You know
where to find me when the revolution comes, Madame LaFarge...

Of course, we know all those who talk in gloomy terms about the impending
violent revolution, um, haven't got shit, themselves. Just like the posers
who say "Lock and Load" all the time, or the Knights Who Say "Nee!". Or
something.

> Ignorance, even
> stupidity, are pardonable if not too tightly connected to
> the motor mouth. You should consider that the damage you may
> do could far exceed the value of whatever pride it is that
> impels you to continue to articulate the government's ideal
> (and fatuous) arguments in this matter.

Ah. "Fatuous." A marvellous word to use, isn't it, Mr. um, Motor Mouth? Did
you look it up for the occasion? Congratulations on your choice. You can
use it in a sentence, too. How nice.


Yup, that's me. Government Stooge. If you don't believe me, ask Tim. He's
got the pictures. And, I'm  the official Cypherpunk Apostate of the
Month... (*Tell* our double winner what he's won, Don Pardo...)


> > And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to
> > end on Thanksgiving Day, much less at the beginning of the
> > millennium.
>
> Only a complete fool would be that sure.

Prove to you the revolution *isn't* coming? Have *you* read your informal
fallacies today, Mr. Mouth? I thought not...

And, of course, only a complete fool would be "sure" that the revolution,
along with black helicopters and four part harmony, is going to happen on
Thanksgiving. Woops. It's the day *after* Thanksgiving, isn't it?

Um... Mr. Mouth? ...Know where I can get a deal on slightly
out-of-the-money futures on The American Revolution 3.0, expiration date
11/27/97? My broker in Corrolitos is not answering the phone. Maybe the
helicopters got him...


> Really, if you just stopped and thought about it a moment,
> there are only a very few regular posters to the list.

Actually, we're all tenticles of the same person. Tee hee. :-)


> All
> of them could be hauled off without making a ripple. We are
> meanwhile playing war footsie with Iraq after having spent
> the better part of five years doing Clinton's best to
> disable, demoralize, cripple, and mismanage the military.
> We're a few press conferences away from being in way over
> our heads with a left-wing android in charge. Is this your
> picture of stable times and a secure Constitution? Do you
> seriously doubt that there are people in the Administration,
> at least in the bureaucracy, who wouldn't like to be able to
> make a few gratuitous PR linkages in a national emergency
> and have an excuse to get rid of the C-P annoyance once and
> for all? Did you miss entirely the personal destruction
> wreaked on Jim Bell _without_ a national emergency? Would you
> be utterly shocked to learn some day soon that you, too, have
> ordered odd chemicals from someplace or other over the last
> few years? Hey! It could _happen_!

Right. And monkeys could fly out my butt. (Hey, it *could* happen... Prove
to me that it can't. :-))

Meanwhile your Thanksgiving turkey's getting cold, bunky. I bet you can go
away from your reinforced door for short periods without even taking your
Mossberg with you. I mean, I admire your perserverance, and all, but your
clothes are starting to stink...


> No, Grasshopper, it is just a _little_ paranoid to suggest
> that it might be a possibility. You're putting words in
> Tim's mouth again.

Actually I'm not. He's been ranting for more than 6 weeks now about how the
FBI/BATF/ETC is going to come down our chimneys, Real Soon Now, Maybe This
Thanksgiving.

I finally got sick of it. Called a spade a spade, and all that.

> You can probably assume that if Tim
> were really convinced that that were going to happen, they
> would find only an inflatable Tim sitting in front of a
> 'puter relaying email through an indirect dial link. Or
> something like that.

Pardon me while I blow eggnog out my nose. :-).

> He's just concerned. I'm concerned.
> Anyone with a brain above room temperature is concerned.
> Ugly things are in the wind.

Right. The Eeevilll One has decided that the Time To Strike is Upon Us, and
so forth. And VALIS is sending thought-rays to your brain, too, I suppose.
Don't forget to sleep with in your aluminum foil nightcap tonight.

> You are the one making such characterizations (as if any of
> us needed that). Had I the time and the interest, I would
> check what archives there are to see if you did the same
> favor for Jim Bell.

Had you the intellegence, much less the time and interest, you would notice
that I never bothered with Jim Bell much, except to put him in my killfile
after the 6th or 7th AP iteration around here. It wasn't until he got
popped for being a loon in various other arenas, and the old Alphabet Gang
decided that Crypto Made Him Do It, that I got interested in him at all,
hence my "Canarypunk in a Coalmine" post. Something you'd find in the
archives. If you had time and interest. And intellegence.

Frankly, it's beginning to look Bell's *still* a loon, and, since he's got
a cryptography connection, it makes him dangerous to anyone who uses
cryptography, whether in fact Bell is dangerous or not.


> Fuckwit!

At least I'm thinking about *something*, you, um, witless fuck.

Write *that* in your little black book, hmmm?


> Well, there's more, but your time's up. See you in the camps.

Funny farm, more like it.


> We Jurgar Din

You Making Me Laugh. I blow eggnog out my nose. Chop Chop.

(With sincere apologies to Mr. Ito: I'm sorry, but I just couldn't resist
something *that* easy. :-))



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Nov 28 14:17:57 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 06:17:57 +0800
Subject: BXA Meet in DC
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971128220859.0070ca88@pop.pipeline.com>



Should anyone attend the BXA meeting in DC referenced below, 
we'd be grateful for a report, handouts and minutes, especially 
on encryption regulation and implementation of the Wassenaar 
Arrangement -- whose issuance is now overdue.

A "Wassenaar Plenary" is scheduled for sometime in December 
as well, with a "Wassenaar list review" in May 1998, according 
to minutes of the October 21 meeting of the Information Systems 
Technical Advisory Committee:

   http://jya.com/istac102197.htm

----------

Bureau of Export Administration
 
Regulations and Procedures Technical Advisory Committee; Notice 
of Partially Closed Meeting

    A meeting of the Regulations and Procedures Technical Advisory 
Committee will be held December 9, 1997, 9:00 a.m., in the Herbert C. 
Hoover Building, Room 3884, 14th Street between Constitution and 
Pennsylvania Avenues, N.W., Washington, D.C. The Committee advises the 
Office of the Assistant Secretary for Export Administration on 
implementation of the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) and 
provides for continuing review to update the EAR as needed.

Agenda

Open Session

    1. Opening remarks by the Chairperson.
    2. Presentation of papers or comments by the public.
    3. Update on the encryption regulation.
    4. Update on the Wassenaar Arrangement implementation regulation.
    5. Discussion on the ``deemed export'' issue.
    6. Discussion on the Enhanced Proliferation Control Initiative and 
continued publication of Entities of Concern.
    7. Update on the Automated Export System.
    8. Discussion on efforts to conform the Foreign Trade Statistics 
Regulations and the Export Administration Regulations on export 
clearance requirements.

Closed Session

    9. Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 
12958, dealing with the U.S. export control program and strategic 
criteria related thereto.

    The General Session of the meeting will be open to the public and a 
limited number of seats will be available. To the extent that time 
permits, members of the public may present oral statements to the 
Committee. Written statements may be submitted at any time before or 
after the meeting. However, to facilitate the distribution of public 
presentation materials to the Committee members, the Committee suggests 
that presenters forward the public presentation materials two weeks 
prior to the meeting date to the following address: Ms. Lee Ann 
Carpenter, OAS/EA/BXA MS: 3886C, 14th & Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., 
U.S. Department of Commerce, Washington, D.C. 20230.

    The Assistant Secretary for Administration, with the concurrence of 
the delegate of the General Counsel, formally determined on December 
16, 1996, pursuant to Section 10(d) of the Federal Advisory Committee 
Act, as amended, that the series of meetings or portions of meetings of 
the Committee and of any Subcommittees thereof, dealing with the 
classified materials listed in 5 U.S.C. 552b(c)(1) shall be exempt from 
the provisions relating to public meetings found in section 10(a)(1) 
and (a)(3), of the Federal Advisory Committee Act. The remaining series 
of meetings or portions thereof will be open to the public. A copy of 
the Notice of Determination to close meetings or portions of meetings 
of the Committee is available for public inspection and copying in the 
Central Reference and Records Inspection Facility, Room 6020, U.S. 
Department of Commerce, Washington, D.C. For further information, call 
Lee Ann Carpenter at (202) 482-2583.

    Dated: November 3, 1997.
Lee Ann Carpenter,
Director, Technical Advisory Committee Unit.
[FR Doc. 97-29404 Filed 11-6-97; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 3510-DT-M








From declan at well.com  Fri Nov 28 16:35:45 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:35:45 +0800
Subject: Censor Intel
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=MSNBC%l=MSNBCRED01-971128233734Z-42196@mail.msnbc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b0a50f5f267a@[204.254.21.48]>



More intel, from the other side. The journalist and civil liberties groups
that have joined the Internet Free Expressional Alliance (compare and
contrast to the sponsors of the summit at
http://www.netparents.org/summit_part.html):

American Civil Liberties Union
American Society of Newspaper Editors
Bolt Reporter
Boston Coalition for Freedom of Expression
Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Electronic Privacy Information Center
Feminists for Free Expression
First Amendment Project
Institute for Global Communications
International Periodical Distributors Association
Journalism Education Association
National Association of Artists Organizations
National Campaign for Freedom of Expression
National Coalition Against Censorship
National Writers Union
NetAction
Peacefire
Publishers Marketing Association
Society of Professional Journalists
z publishing

The IFEA press conference at 12:30 pm Monday will be carried by CSPAN for
you outside-the-Bway-folks. One or two libertarian thinktanks may make
available some material critical of the push towards mandatory voluntary
ratings. The IFEA folks will also, I'm told, have someone at the Censorware
Summit hotel itself, on Tuesday, in Meeting Room #6 on the lower level.

-Declan







From tiacaa41 at anion.epita.fr  Sat Nov 29 09:41:37 1997
From: tiacaa41 at anion.epita.fr (benz)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 09:41:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: your request
Message-ID: <199711292463AAA29105@17253948u6t9o4uu78390.astraweb.com>


NEW IMPROVED with FREE software, FREE bulk e mail system,  FREE web site to do what you wish, ongoing support (optional), and a lot more! all included.

...........this is a one time mailing...............

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\$\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
you  are about to make at least $50,000
In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...then read it again...
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Dear friend,
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly
believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. 
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a
pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money
back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN
LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to
fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't
turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,
no matter how much money it cost me!.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you
read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in  20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100
OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program
does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of
not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work,
you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this. 
Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20
to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way
to financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!
                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free
lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through
trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally
figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the
right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have
made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been
very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business
for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that
had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of
the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will
be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did,
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil
and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested. 
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT
WORKS!
                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With
a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made
their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics
show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level
Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Dothis
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a
           SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10)                    to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International            
           orders should also include $2 extra for postage. It is
           essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
           report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You
           will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
           and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
           other than what the instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always
           provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will
           tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring
           email lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
           encourage them to take  advantage of this  fabulous 
           money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they
           love me now, more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and
           everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get email
           addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in
           email mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000
           addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 USD CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
(International orders should also include $2 USD extra for postage) 
Add you e amil address when sending in for your report this is for updated information and continueing support (optional) that will be handed down by you sponcers.
______________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
A. Siegmund #57
Trakehnenstr. 13
53332 Bornheim, Germany


______________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
J. Maz
15774 S. Lagrange Rd
Suite #312
Orland Pk, IL 60462
USA
________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

B. Thompson
13504 Greencaslte ridge Tr.  404
Burtonsville MD. 20866
USA
______________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

MUW #2
PO BOX 71442
SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84171-0442
USA
______________________________________________________
CONCLUSION
.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            






From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Nov 28 18:25:52 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 10:25:52 +0800
Subject: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
In-Reply-To: <199711282112.PAA13434@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <199711290213.VAA29305@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711282112.PAA13434 at wire.insync.net>, on 11/28/97 
   at 04:12 PM, Eric Cordian <emc at wire.insync.net> said:

>Monique writes:

>> Our new technology allows you to see our girls live and interact
>> with them right in your NETSCAPE 2.2+, INTERNET EXPLORER 3.02, and AOL FOR
>> WINDOWS 95 BROWSERS......

>One amusing note.  To buy time on this "service," one is presented with a
>form which requires one to fill in name, phone number, address, credit
>card number, and other personal information.  Hitting "Submit"  sends
>this form in cleartext to their web server.

>On the bottom of the form is printed... 

>"All Live Sex Sales are processed using CyberCash Transaction Encryption"


>While you're counting "Monique"s pussy hairs, the owner of the upstream
>router will be doing his Christmas shopping on your Mastercard. :)

This is one thing I have never understood about the greate concern users
have over their CC #'s. If ,as Eric points out , the upstream provider
goes Cristmas shopping on your Mastercard it is not the user who is out
the money! The person who gets stuck with the bill is the Vendors who sell
products to someone who is not authorized to use your card.

Of course the hype from the CC card company and those selling services
like CyberCash go a long way to explaining this.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From emc at wire.insync.net  Fri Nov 28 18:32:46 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 10:32:46 +0800
Subject: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
In-Reply-To: <199711290213.VAA29305@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711290225.UAA13753@wire.insync.net>



William H. Geiger III writes:

> This is one thing I have never understood about the greate concern users
> have over their CC #'s. If ,as Eric points out , the upstream provider
> goes Cristmas shopping on your Mastercard it is not the user who is out
> the money! The person who gets stuck with the bill is the Vendors who sell
> products to someone who is not authorized to use your card.

Actually, it's the credit card issuer who eats it.  The issuer guarantees
the merchant payment as long as the charge is approved at the point of
sale. This is why merchants almost never care who or what presents the
card, as long as the card is valid.

The actual owner of the card is also protected against having to pay
fradulent charges, as long as he informs the card company in a timely
manner if the card is lost, stolen, or misused.

The cost of guaranteeing any valid card is as good as cash to the
merchant, and holding the consumer harmless for fraud, is born through
fees and interest on card balances, and merchant fees for processing
credit card transactions. 

Of course, the attitude of "why should I care if my card is used
fradulently, I won't have to pay" raises credit card costs to everyone, as
the card companies simply recycle the added expense back to their
customers. 

You may recall a recent news story in which someone collected a huge
number of credit card numbers from a major vendor doing business on the
Net, and attempted to market them. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 28 19:02:07 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:02:07 +0800
Subject: "Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally."  -- DataBasix
In-Reply-To: <65f2mj$t22@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3dd75d15d1f8e6a2c387aa0fb78ba5e5@anonymous.poster>



gburnore+spam at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
        ^^^^^

Netcom is now requiring "truth in labelling", eh?

> : Cat got his tongue?
> 
> I was busy. Surely now you'll try to figure out what I was doing.

I'm sure we'll find out soon enough, since you seem to be so intent
on taunting your readers with your latest mischief.  If you're dying
to tell us, then feel free to do so.  Otherwise, drop it.  Your call.

> : Really?  Then why are you hiding your own post from being archived by a neutral
> : third party?  Trying to maintain "plausible deniability" if you post something
> : you later regret saying and want to claim it was "forged"?
> 
> What does DejaNews have to be with this?  You can save all of her/my posts on
> your own if you want to.   *No doubt, you've already done that* so why
> complain?

So you can claim that anything you posted that later proves to be
too embarassing was "forged", right?  That's a lot easier to do if
you don't sign them with the PGP key which you keep advertising in
your bloated .sig, and you make sure they aren't archived by any
NEUTRAL third party.  (Remember when you called someone else [who
shall remain nameless at his request] a "coward" for hiding HIS
posts behind an "X-No-Archive" header?)

Many readers will remember that you were whining pitifully a few
months ago about how remailers were allegedly being used to "forge"
posts in your name.  You were given several suggestions, one of
which was to install PGP, generate a key, and use it to sign *ALL*
of your genuine posts.  Your huge .sig now contains the fingerprint
of a PGP public key that YOU ARE STILL NOT USING.  Still trying to
maintain "plausible deniability" for your posts?

And then a few weeks ago you butted into technical question posted
to alt.privacy.anon-server about Private Idaho with the implication
that the person asking the question wanted to know the answer so
that he/she could commit "forgery".  If you're so concerned about
forgery, why have you not bothered to try what was already suggested
the last time you launched into your "remailer users are abusive
assholes" tirade?

> :  Posing as a
> : "lawyer" for DataBasix, you demanded that Jeff Burchell turn over all of his
> : user logs to you and Gary, just as the so-called "Church" of $cientology
> : did with the anon.penet.fi remailer in Finland last year. 
> 
> She never posed as a lawyer.  Yet another of your lies.

Then why did you demand that Jeff violate the privacy of all of his
users by turning over his user logs to you and Belinda Bryan
<eridani at ix.netcom.com>?  And when he said that the only condition
he'd release them was in response to a letter FROM YOUR LAWYER,
Belinda Bryan sent such a letter?

Perhaps the remailer users would like to know what purpose you had
in mind for demanding the e-mail addresses of EVERYONE who either
SENT or RECEIVED anonymous mail through Jeff's remailer.

> : The end
> : result was the same in both cases, too.  Both remailers shut down to avoid
> : the continued harassment from people like you, Gary, and Helena.  I hope
> : you're proud of yourselves.
> 
> Even the remailer operator proved you wrong.  Nice try liar.  It's not going
> to work anymore.  

It's your abuse that's not going to work anymore.  You've cried wolf
once too often about "abuse", "forgery", and other imagined
offenses.  The remailer operator did not "prove me wrong".  Reread
his post when you're sober:

  http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html

Just to refresh your memory, you were asked whether you had asked
Jeff Burchell to censor any anonymous posts that mentioned your
name.  You stonewalled the question, flippantly suggesting that
he/she ask the operator.  Someone did just that, and Jeff's post is
the result of that.  Looks like you gambled and lost that time!

You can call remailer users "liars" and "anonymous assholes" to your
heart's content, but your censorious actions and those of your
associates at DataBasix speak for themselves.

--






From blancw at cnw.com  Fri Nov 28 19:34:29 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:34:29 +0800
Subject: Cyberzine Issue on Privacy & Security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971128192835.0069108c@cnw.com>



Just discovered an online magazine at http://www.pretext.com.  The Nov/Dec
issue is on "Privacy & Security".  They feature articles on 

. The End of Privacy - are secrets safe in cyberspace?
. From Cowrie Shells to Computer Bytes - the history & future of currency
. Breaking the Codes - why National Encryption matters to you
. Herman Cohen, PI - on the trail with a virtual gumshoe

and an interview with Phil Zimmerman, plus a conversation with Lance
Cottrell on The Anonymizer.
    ..
Blanc






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 28 19:34:34 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:34:34 +0800
Subject: Sadaam Burnore Strikes Again (was: Re: Keman the Klueless Strikes Again)
In-Reply-To: <199711221553.HAA28661@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <9ceb4c221986174b257a35f0f5f348f1@anonymous.poster>



rfg at monkeys.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) wrote:

> >Your looney maroon conspiracy theories that Ron Guilmette has been "stalking"
> >you and is responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened to you
> >are simply more evidence of your paranoid mental state.
> 
> I realize that you think that you are trying to do some good, but I'm
> going to ask you nicely to please stop all of this baiting of Burnore.
> Sure, he's basically kind of a dickhead, but what's the point?
> 
> I want to be really really clear about this... What you are doing is
> just making things worse.  You aren't helping.  In fact you are making
> things worse by feeding his paranoia.  (And it isn't entirely clear from
> where I sit that he is entirely stable, so this is rather a dangerous
> thing for you to do... not for you of course... posting anonymously...
> but for me.  It isn't you that's going to be signing hospital consent
> forms when you finally push this guy over the edge and make him go postal.
> I'd like you to consider that.)

If you have evidence to support that conclusion, then do us all a
favor and give it to the authorities so that Gary Burnore can
receive the help he needs.  I can apreciate your motivation to
appease him.  In the past, he's displayed a tendency to shift his
abuse and attacks to someone else (like Scott Dentice) when you've
done that.  But shifting the focus of his attacks doesn't end them.

I doubt that you're even the PRIMARY focus of his tirades anymore,
even though that seems to be the impression he's trying to give.
Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryan, and the rest of the DataBasix wrecking
crew seem to be on a power trip these days.

The fact that he attempted to CONTROL you by posting embarassing
information to the net and threatening to post more unless you
stopped criticizing him gave us a glimpse of his real agenda.  I
doubt that discrediting Ron Guilmette forms more than a tiny
fraction of his and Belinda's overall agenda.  IMO, you and the
fanciful charges he's made against you are only his excuse for doing
what he's been doing.

> P.P.S.  If you have some beef about something that Burnore has done to
> _you_ then alright.  Talk about that and only that.  If I have a beef
> with Burnore please allow me the dignity of persuing that myself.  I
> don't need your help, and I don't need you to defend me.  I can take
> care of myself, thank you very much.

Exactly.  You've got to do what you've got to do, and I must do
likewise.  Perhaps I don't know the entire background of what's
going on here, and if you'd care to enlighten us all, then by all
means feel free to do so.  My involvement in this controversy
started when my account at Mailmasher suddenly stopped working and
I learned that one of Gary Burnore's buddies, Billy McClatchie (who
calls himself "Wotan"), was behind the attack that shut it down.

I might never have connected that attack to Gary until he and
Belinda Bryan tried something similar against another remailer also
operated by Jeff Burchell and Jeff chose to go public with an expose
(post-mortem, unfortunately) of the abusive tactics that DataBasix
had employed (see URL at the bottom), including a situation where
Belinda Bryan attempted to impersonate an attorney in demanding that
Jeff turn over all of his user logs to DataBasix.  As it turns out,
Mr. Burchell wisely kept no such logs, but what use do you suppose
Gary might found for the e-mail addresses contained in those logs,
had he succeeded in obtaining them?  When Gary uses you as an excuse
to try and violate my privacy and that of other remailer users, then
it becomes my business.

> Am I making myself clear?  Butt out.  When I need you, I'll let you know.
> In the meantime, fight your own fights.

That's exactly what I'm doing.  And I'd suggest that you do
likewise.  If you have reasonable cause to believe that Gary Burnore
would resort to violence against you, then take any and all
necessary steps to protect yourself.  But don't expect everyone else
to shut up in an attempt to appease Burnore.

If and when he chooses another pretext to attack the right to speak
freely on the net, then I'll challenge him on that.  Don't flatter
yourself in thinking that this is primarily about you.  Gary is a
CONTROL FREAK.  He has some underlying need to control what's said
on the net.  When he can't refute the MESSAGE, he attempts to punish
the MESSENGER.  While you certainly saw that happen in your case,
you're far from unique.  And when the MESSENGER is beyond his reach
(posting anonymously or whatever), he attacks the CHANNELS of
communication instead.  When one such attack affected me, then it
became my business.  (A later search in DejaNews confirmed that I
was not the first anonymous poster to draw file from Gary Burnore.)

Involving you in this is Gary's choice, not mine.  When he makes
claims such as "Ron Guilmette used an anonymous remailer to forge my
name", or "rfg sent anonymous letters to harass a teenage girl with
a web page at DataBasix" in order to attack remailers, then you've
just become unwittingly involved in the debate.

Ignoring Gary and his provocations doesn't work, because he goes out
of his way to pick fights with other remailer users.  For example,
he recently butted into a thread over on alt.privacy.anon-server
with an anti-remailer tirade.  Someone merely posted a technical
question about how to do something with a remailer interface
software package and was treated to a "reply" about how remailers
were being used by you to "spam bait" him.  In fact, he did this
with two different threads.

If you haven't been following that saga, I'd invite you to read Jeff
Burchell's account of Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryan, and Billy
McClatchie's attacks on his remailers at:

  http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html

If you come up with a way to prevent similar future attacks by Gary
Burnore, then please share it.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 28 19:45:59 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:45:59 +0800
Subject: "Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally."  -- DataBasix
In-Reply-To: <65f2mj$t22@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711290325.EAA14294@basement.replay.com>



gburnore+spam at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
        ^^^^^

Netcom is now requiring "truth in labelling", eh?

> : Cat got his tongue?
> 
> I was busy. Surely now you'll try to figure out what I was doing.

I'm sure we'll find out soon enough, since you seem to be so intent
on taunting your readers with your latest mischief.  If you're dying
to tell us, then feel free to do so.  Otherwise, drop it.  Your call.

> : Really?  Then why are you hiding your own post from being archived by a neutral
> : third party?  Trying to maintain "plausible deniability" if you post something
> : you later regret saying and want to claim it was "forged"?
> 
> What does DejaNews have to be with this?  You can save all of her/my posts on
> your own if you want to.   *No doubt, you've already done that* so why
> complain?

So you can claim that anything you posted that later proves to be
too embarassing was "forged", right?  That's a lot easier to do if
you don't sign them with the PGP key which you keep advertising in
your bloated .sig, and you make sure they aren't archived by any
NEUTRAL third party.  (Remember when you called someone else [who
shall remain nameless at his request] a "coward" for hiding HIS
posts behind an "X-No-Archive" header?)

Many readers will remember that you were whining pitifully a few
months ago about how remailers were allegedly being used to "forge"
posts in your name.  You were given several suggestions, one of
which was to install PGP, generate a key, and use it to sign *ALL*
of your genuine posts.  Your huge .sig now contains the fingerprint
of a PGP public key that YOU ARE STILL NOT USING.  Still trying to
maintain "plausible deniability" for your posts?

And then a few weeks ago you butted into technical question posted
to alt.privacy.anon-server about Private Idaho with the implication
that the person asking the question wanted to know the answer so
that he/she could commit "forgery".  If you're so concerned about
forgery, why have you not bothered to try what was already suggested
the last time you launched into your "remailer users are abusive
assholes" tirade?

> :  Posing as a
> : "lawyer" for DataBasix, you demanded that Jeff Burchell turn over all of his
> : user logs to you and Gary, just as the so-called "Church" of $cientology
> : did with the anon.penet.fi remailer in Finland last year. 
> 
> She never posed as a lawyer.  Yet another of your lies.

Then why did you demand that Jeff violate the privacy of all of his
users by turning over his user logs to you and Belinda Bryan
<eridani at ix.netcom.com>?  And when he said that the only condition
he'd release them was in response to a letter FROM YOUR LAWYER,
Belinda Bryan sent such a letter?

Perhaps the remailer users would like to know what purpose you had
in mind for demanding the e-mail addresses of EVERYONE who either
SENT or RECEIVED anonymous mail through Jeff's remailer.

> : The end
> : result was the same in both cases, too.  Both remailers shut down to avoid
> : the continued harassment from people like you, Gary, and Helena.  I hope
> : you're proud of yourselves.
> 
> Even the remailer operator proved you wrong.  Nice try liar.  It's not going
> to work anymore.  

It's your abuse that's not going to work anymore.  You've cried wolf
once too often about "abuse", "forgery", and other imagined
offenses.  The remailer operator did not "prove me wrong".  Reread
his post when you're sober:

  http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html

Just to refresh your memory, you were asked whether you had asked
Jeff Burchell to censor any anonymous posts that mentioned your
name.  You stonewalled the question, flippantly suggesting that
he/she ask the operator.  Someone did just that, and Jeff's post is
the result of that.  Looks like you gambled and lost that time!

You can call remailer users "liars" and "anonymous assholes" to your
heart's content, but your censorious actions and those of your
associates at DataBasix speak for themselves.

--






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Nov 28 20:16:11 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:16:11 +0800
Subject: Non Logging News Servers? Try #2
In-Reply-To: <0cc751b9ffaf2c1afd6a2289b4873895@anonymous.poster>
Message-ID: <e349157902e951f835e046e65101d325@anonymous.poster>



lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin at nym.alias.net> wrote:

> The unfortunate reality is that almost all news servers log, and there
> is no way to tell if you don't actually have an account on the server.
> There may be privacy conscious ISPs that actually promote the fact
> that they don't log, but I don't know of any to recommend.
> 
> The point of putting that in the help file was also to make people
> realize there is a trade-off.  Posting to news groups might not
> actually be the safest solution.  Basically, if you are more worried
> about the remailer operators, alt.anonymous messages is probably the
> best place to send messages.  However, if you are more worried about
> your employer/ISP than about the remailer operators, then it probably
> makes more sense just to have an ordinary e-mail reply block.

One solution to this problem is to run your own personal news server
like "souper" that gathers ALL new news article in a certain NG and
stores them locally for off-line reading.

If you're consistently pulling news messages for the
alt.anonymous.messages NG off of a certain server, it could be
reasonably inferred that you are the intended recipient of at least
SOME of those messages.  But if you use a client that invariably
grabs all the new messages each time, it would be rather difficult
to determine which messages you are interested in.

To avoid traffic analysis, use a software program to pull the
messages for you.  If you do it manually, even if you try to pull
them all, you will undoubtedly read and save them in a certain
order, or spend more time reading certain ones that will betray your
interest in certain messages.

As for employers, any of them that are sophistocated enough to be
monitoring NNTP connections and creating a profile of your reading
habits probably also have their own firewall and news server.  IOW,
if they run their own news server and carry a certain NG, then
they'd have a hard time objecting to your reading it.

It would probably be wise to assume a worst-case scenario and only
deviate from it when you're sure it's safe to do so.  For example,
suppose you used a pseudonym to publish an article that was critical
of the current Ayatollah in Iran, or perhaps deemed offensive to
Islam in general, and you were sentenced to death in absentia ... if
they can find and identify you.  (Sort of an anonymous Salmon
Rushdie.)  Start out assuming you need that level of security and go
from there.  But if someone has gone to the trouble of setting up a
'nym, then he probably perceives a need for more than just a casual
level of security.

--






From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Fri Nov 28 20:28:06 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (damaged justice)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:28:06 +0800
Subject: Without Laws, There Are No Rights
Message-ID: <199711290422.XAA07301@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




   [1]SIDEBAR 
   
                                 [2][LINK]
                                      
No End In Sight To Thai Internet Regulation

          ****No End In Sight To Thai Internet Regulation 11/28/97
          BANGKOK, THAILAND, 1997 NOV 28 (NB) -- By Sasiwimon Boonruang,
          Bangkok Post. Finding a consensus on how the Internet should be
          regulated in Thailand is proving to be a difficult task,
          experts say.
          
          Attorney General Office Prosecutor Shinnawat Thongpakdee said
          the law defines and protects human rights and duties and
          inevitably involves itself with human behavior. As the Internet
          is a phenomenon related with human behavior as well, it would
          "unavoidably" be involved with the law as well.
          
          There are several "rights" involved with Internet information:
          the right to control access to information, right of
          information use, right of copying information, and the right to
          publicize information. These rights cannot be separated, he
          said.
          
          The rights come from several laws - "without laws, there are no
          rights," the prosecutor said.
         
[And a BIG, HEARTY RASPBERRY to this CLUELESS MORON!]
 
          In the Internet world, the producers of information own the
          copyright to their work, and consequently, any law regarding
          the Internet should also go hand in hand with copyright laws.
          
          There is no solution at the moment as to whether there should
          be compulsory laws regarding the Internet because it's
          difficult to use legal means to enforce such laws, and they
          would also vary greatly from one country to the next.
          
          One practical approach would be drawing up of a worldwide
          conventional agreement regarding Internet regulation, allowing
          each country to sign off of their own choosing.
          
          At the very least, he said, we should accumulate information
          concerning the Internet in order to consider what should be
          allowed or prohibited - this information would be useful in the
          future.
          
          Mr Shinnawat added that Internet technology is very new for the
          legal sector and other societies, and it was difficult to make
          any conclusions in legal term about the Internet at the moment.
          
          He said the Internet provided the opportunity for all - rich
          and poor alike - to access and make use of information, even
          though the reality would be that the gap between rich and poor
          would grow even wider.
          
          According to Internet Thailand Service Center (ITSC) President
          Trin Tantsetthi, infringement on the Internet has increased
          greatly during the last year, and laws regarding the Internet
          would be very hard to enforce.
          
          For example, there were already 30,000 documents on the
          Internet in Thailand already.
          
          Copyright infringements on the works of others was wrong in
          both moral and legal terms, he said, but using legal means to
          deal with it would prove difficult. Social pressures might be
          an alternative.
          
          Wanchai Kanti, of Thammasat University, said people should have
          freedom of speech and freedom to express opinions, and that the
          flow of information "should not be closed", especially to
          academic institutes. There should not be laws to control
          Internet content, although opinions expressed should be done in
          a responsible manner.
          
          Reported By Newsbytes News Network: [3]http://www.newsbytes.com
          
          (19971128)
          
   [4]Copyright �Newsbytes News Network. All rightsreserved. For more
   Newsbytes see http://www.newsbytes.com.
   
         [5]Home | [6]Daily | [7]Weekly | [8]Publishers | [9]Search

References

   1. http://www.newsbytes.com/menus/navbar.map
   2. http://ad.preferences.com/click.ng;spacedesc=CliqTech_Newsbytes_468x60_CTGeneral_Any
   3. http://www.newsbytes.com/
   4. http://www.nbnn.com/copyrght.html
   5. http://www.nbnn.com/home.html
   6. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_daily.html
   7. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_week.html
   8. http://www.nbnn.com/publishers/publi_1.html
   9. http://www.nbnn.com/html_p/search.html






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Nov 28 20:52:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:52:14 +0800
Subject: Microsoft Rides Again
Message-ID: <199711290435.FAA20961@basement.replay.com>



Micro$oft fucked me up the ass. Please help. I'm bleeding to death.






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Nov 28 21:31:44 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:31:44 +0800
Subject: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
In-Reply-To: <199711290225.UAA13753@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <N6Xwge44w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Eric Cordian <emc at wire.insync.net> writes:
>
> > This is one thing I have never understood about the greate concern users
> > have over their CC #'s. If ,as Eric points out , the upstream provider
> > goes Cristmas shopping on your Mastercard it is not the user who is out
> > the money! The person who gets stuck with the bill is the Vendors who sell
> > products to someone who is not authorized to use your card.
>
> Actually, it's the credit card issuer who eats it.  The issuer guarantees
> the merchant payment as long as the charge is approved at the point of
> sale. This is why merchants almost never care who or what presents the
> card, as long as the card is valid.
>
> The actual owner of the card is also protected against having to pay
> fradulent charges, as long as he informs the card company in a timely
> manner if the card is lost, stolen, or misused.

of course the credit card issuers do this not out of the goodness of their
heart but because they're required to by the US gubmint. It's not at all
clear if they have to eat the fraudulent charges if the card holder hasn't
been following the issuer's instructions.

> The cost of guaranteeing any valid card is as good as cash to the
> merchant, and holding the consumer harmless for fraud, is born through
> fees and interest on card balances, and merchant fees for processing
> credit card transactions.
>
> Of course, the attitude of "why should I care if my card is used
> fradulently, I won't have to pay" raises credit card costs to everyone, as
> the card companies simply recycle the added expense back to their
> customers.
>
> You may recall a recent news story in which someone collected a huge
> number of credit card numbers from a major vendor doing business on the
> Net, and attempted to market them.

Actually, if you call up your credit card issuer and ask, hypothetically,
what would happen if you transmitted your credit card info over the Internet,
and someone got hold of them, and charged lots of money. Don't assume
that they have to eat it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Fri Nov 28 22:03:52 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:03:52 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <1u4Vge36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971128232604.21775D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>



On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Ralphie should get together with David Smith, the operator of the bureau42
> remailer, who filters out whatever contents he doesn't like. Anything
> coming out of bureau42 remailer is personally approved by David Smith
> who bears full civil and criminal responsibility for the contents he approves.

This charge is completely unfounded, and completely bogus besides.

dave






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Fri Nov 28 22:08:44 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:08:44 +0800
Subject: US Air Force IPSEC Requirements
In-Reply-To: <v04002726b0a22d3263f4@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971128233501.17990B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>




Maybe the Air Force should hire a consultant instead of CSC.

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> From: "Boyter, Brian A." <boyter at afiwc01.af.mil>
> To: "'ipsec at tis.com'" <ipsec at tis.com>
> Subject: US Air Force IPSEC Requirements
> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:03:03 -0600
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Sender: owner-ipsec at ex.tis.com
> Precedence: bulk
> 
> First, I would like to introduce myself...
> My name is Brian Boyter, I'm a Senior Consulting
> Engineer with the Computer Sciences Corp, and I
> am under contract to the US Air Force Information
> Warfare Center in San Antonio, Texas, working on
> USAF computer security...
> 
> The USAF is evaluating the use of IPSEC products
> to help secure its unclassified networks...   These unclas
> networks are used to communicate with contractors, and to
> process financial, logistic, personnel, and medical data...
> The IPSEC would be used to protect the data from
> unauthorized viewing and to protect the networks and
> computers from hackers...   Our goal is to eventually IPSEC
> encrypt all unclassified computer communications end-to-end...
> 
> The USAF recently completed a hasty evaluation of several
> IPSEC products...   Most products would work fine for a
> small organization, but do not scale to an enterprise the size
> of the USAF (500,000 computers)...
> 
> Here is a short list of basic USAF requirements which we found
> lacking in the current IPSEC products:
> 1. 	The Department of Defense will soon deploy a Public
> Key Infrastructure (PKI)...   The IPSEC products need to
> use this existing PKI (not require a separate keying product)...
> 2. 	The USAF uses HP OpenView as its standard SNMP
> management product...   Error logging and other IPSEC status
> information needs to interoperate with OpenView...
> 3. 	The USAF needs to be able to manage the IPSEC security
> policy sanely...   An example of a USAF IPSEC security policy
> might be:  "all USAF computers can talk to all other USAF
> computers using DES, all other computers it talks in-the-clear"...
> It will not be possible to manage 500,000 different rule sets...
> The security policy must be made simple...    We need the X.500
> equivalent
> of *.mil,  *.af.mil,  *.lackland.af.mil,  and *.hospital.*.af.mil so
> that
> we can generate rule sets using these wild cards...   I don't think
> rules based on IP addresses will work either...
> 
> I'm not including interoperability in the above list because the ANX
> has done a good job of making that requirement visible....
> 
> What I'm trying to point out is two things:
> 1. The IPSEC products need to re-use as much of our existing
> infrastructure as possible (for example PKI, SNMP, etc)...
> If the USAF were a small company that didn't have a large
> infrastructure
> investment already, it wouldn't be an issue...   But if each IPSEC
> product
> requires a management console at each air force base, then that can
> add up to millions of dollars, thousands of man hours, training costs,
> etc...
> 2. I'm also trying to point out that there is no standard (that I can
> find) for
> representing, storing, or disseminating the security policy....
> 
> Although these are Air Force requirements, I'm sure the same
> requirements will exist for any large enterprise contemplating the
> use
> of IPSEC products...
> 
> I plan to be at the IETF meeting in December and will be glad to
> speak to anyone about these issues...    Perhaps an IPSEC security
> policy BOF could even be arranged???
> 
> Thanks,
> Brian Boyter
> boyter at afiwc01.af.mil
> (210)977-3113
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
> 
> 
> 






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 28 22:42:36 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:42:36 +0800
Subject: PGP / Outlook Express Plugin Problem
Message-ID: <01bcfc90$3e7868e0$LocalHost@jonathan-s-pc>



I just received a CD from Microsoft with a subscription to MSN and the
install for Internet Explorer 4.0 and Outlook Express.  I installed
Explorer and Outlook but have not been able to get Outlook to recognize the
PGP plugin.  (I reinstalled PGP after installing Outlook)  Does anyone have
any suggestions?  I have encrypt and sign buttons, but they are for
Outlook's bozo built-in encryption and require a "digital ID" from
VeriSign, which I have no desire to buy.

Jonathan Wienke






From brownlist at goplay.com  Sat Nov 29 03:06:45 1997
From: brownlist at goplay.com (brownlist at goplay.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:06:45 +0800
Subject: it ain't BLUE anymore!
Message-ID: <199711291100.GAA18939@www.video-collage.com>



mailbombers?  start your engines ...

http://www.webpost.net/brownlist






From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 29 08:24:56 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:24:56 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971128232604.21775D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <34801536.7BA2@dev.null>



David E. Smith wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Ralphie should get together with David Smith, the operator of the bureau42
> > remailer, who filters out whatever contents he doesn't like. Anything
> > coming out of bureau42 remailer is personally approved by David Smith
> > who bears full civil and criminal responsibility for the contents he approves.
> 
> This charge is completely unfounded, and completely bogus besides.

Dave,
  Despite your repeated denials of the good Dr. Vulis' carefully
researched revelations regarding bureau42 remailer, you still have
not had either the courage or integrity to publically explain how
you discovered that I am, in fact, Andy Dustman, unless you are,
in fact, logging and filtering your incoming remail, in fact.

DustMonger







From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov 29 08:29:48 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:29:48 +0800
Subject: "Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally." -- sez DataBasix
In-Reply-To: <65f2mj$t22@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <b858392fe9cc7220a97b36db9ca3ce04@anonymous.poster>



gburnore at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> No, otherwise it'd say 'theanonassholeislosing@
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^

Keep up your bigoted remarks towards those of us who'd rather not
contribute our e-mail addresses to spammers and abusers.  Your true
colors are showing ever more clearly with each passing day.

> Changing your tune a bit?  hahaha You're losing.

If believing that makes you happy, go right ahead.

> I remember that you have no clue what you're talking about anymore.  You
> complain that I don't sign my posts yet you miss one thing.  I'm not posting
> from databasix.com.  That's where the accusations are leveled towards. Those
> were the posts that were forged.  When I post from DataBasix, I'll pgp sign
> them.

You were posting from Netcom, not DataBasix, when you accused the
poster of a technical question to alt.privacy.anon-server of wanting
the the information so that he could permit "forgery".

> You're an abusive asshole and you're posting anonymously.  There are
> legitimate reasons for using a remailer.  None of your posts have fit that
> criteria.

If you're campaigning for "privacy czar", this isn't going to win
you any votes.  Once again, when you take the time and effort to set
up your own remailer, then you have the privilege of determining
"legitimate reasons for using it".  Have you, Belinda Bryan
<eridani at ix.netcom.com>, or your other flunkies at DataBasix EVER
had ANYTHING civil to say publicly about anonymous posters?  Care to
cite an example?

> : Then why did you demand that Jeff violate the privacy of all of his
> : users by turning over his user logs to you and Belinda Bryan
> : <eridani at ix.netcom.com>? 
> :  And when he said that the only condition
> : he'd release them was in response to a letter FROM YOUR LAWYER,
> : Belinda Bryan sent such a letter?
> 
> One doesn't need to be a lawyer to send a letter. 

You didn't answer the question.  You demanded ALL of the user logs
for Jeff's Huge Cajones remailer.  Why?  What would have happened to
all of the e-mail addresses of his users if Jeff had given in to
that demand?

> : Perhaps the remailer users would like to know what purpose you had
> : in mind for demanding the e-mail addresses of EVERYONE who either
> : SENT or RECEIVED anonymous mail through Jeff's remailer.
> 
> Perhaps readers would be interested in knowing the real reason you're so
> attracted to me.  Maybe someday you'll post your demands.

Just leave remailers and their users the he** alone, Gary!

> Blah Blah Blah. You're such a lousy liar.  You've still never posted one shred
> of evidence that I ever abused anything or tried to shut a remailer down or
> had one shut down or whatever you like to think.  It's more likely it's YOU
> who want remailers shut down.  Many are now complaining about tactics such as
> yours. Posting lies from behind a remailer is one good way to try to get them
> shut down.  Why do you want remailers shut down so badly?

You call me a liar, then you proceed with your typical "big lie"
technique of accusing me without evidence.  "Posting lies from
behind a remailer"?  Do you fancy yourself to be the "truth squad"
or "Thought Police", Gary?  Have you got a Perl script in your back
pocket that will filter posts for "truth" and "lies" that you'd care
to donate to the remailer net, or should remailer operators just
block all posts that even mention your name just to be on the "safe"
side?

It's interesting that you'd claim "Posting lies from behind a
remailer is one good way to try to get them shut down".  Is that
your goal?  Have you tried that tactic before, perhaps as a pretext
to get a remailer shut down?  Your unproven accusations are a bit
mis-targeted.  I'm the one who's USING a remailer, you're the one
who's consistently CRITICIZED them.  Have you even USED a remailer
(that you'll admit to)?  Have you ever contributed money or
technical expertise to setting up or operating one?  Back when you
were lecturing people on how a remailer ought to be run, you were
politely invited to set up your own and SHOW us all how a remailer
should be run.  That invitation is still open.

> : Just to refresh your memory, you were asked whether you had asked
> : Jeff Burchell to censor any anonymous posts that mentioned your
> : name.  You stonewalled the question, flippantly suggesting that
> : he/she ask the operator.  Someone did just that, and Jeff's post is
> : the result of that.  Looks like you gambled and lost that time!
> 
> I said (and I told him)  I wanted any post with my email address in the From
> line or To line dropped.
> 
> Looks like your creativity is running out.  Looks like you gambled
> and lost. 

You were harassing Jeff in June and yet you weren't able to produce
any evidence of "forged" posts any more recent than February, and
even those appeared to have been forged to LOOK like they had
originated from a remailer.  The problem is, the person who posted
that manufactured "evidence" was not very knowledgeable about
remailers, and attempted to implicate a server, Mailmasher, that
didn't even support header pasting.  (It was a 'nym server, not a
remailer.)  Nevertheless, your associate at DataBasix, William J.
McClatchie, used this bogus "evidence" as part of his campaign to
get Mailmasher shut down.  (Still wanna claim that DataBasix is not
anti-remailer?)

According to Jeff, you also demanded that he block what you called
"inflammatory posts".  He also indicated that he was blocking posts
that contained your e-mail address in the *BODY* of the post (which
most replies to your posts would contain) because YOU DEMANDED IT.
Once again you've been caught in a lie, Gary.  "Forged" From:  lines
were already a non-problem -- it was the CONTENT that you sought to
censor.

I might add that while remailers have long ago removed the
capability of "forging" From:  lines to usenet posts, your own ISP,
Netcom, has not.  Maybe you ought to be whining to them and accusing
your fellow Netcommies of being "abusers".  There certainly seem to
be a lot more abuse complaints about Netcom users than there are
about remailer users.  Could it be that spammers and UCErs find
Netcom more tolerant of their net abuse than do the remailers you
continually attack?

> You've lost.  It's not working anymore.  Your unfounded and unproven
> accusations have proved you the liar.  You've yet to explain why you've go t
> such a 'thing' for me.  Bet I got your account closed for spamming or UCE. 

You weren't able to send any spam or UCE to my account because I've
never given the address to you.  That, apparently, is what's bugging
you about the fact that I'm anonymous.  We all know about how you
and Belinda Bryan like to Netcop anyone who dares to disagree with
you, but I was not among your victims.  Sorry to disappoint you.

The existence of people like you on the net is one of the best
selling points for posting anonymously and not indiscriminately
broadcasting one's name and e-mail address worldwide with every
post.  It's sort of hard to blackmail someone by posting
confidential information, like old tax liens, if you don't know his
name, isn't it?  Is that what's bugging you about not knowing my
name?

It's interesting that in a recent post, your fellow DataBasix-er
Belinda Bryan expressed concern about her UNLISTED phone number or
her street address being revealed on the net.  So why is it OK to
"hide behind the skirts of" an unlisted phone number, but using an
"unlisted" e-mail address somehow makes one a "dickless coward with
no balls" (to use her own words)?

--






From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 29 08:29:55 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:29:55 +0800
Subject: Robinson CypherPunk
In-Reply-To: <199711290815.AAA23604@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <348018B0.48DF@dev.null>



> ======================================================
>  Q. How long did the real Robinson Crusoe live on that
> desert island?
>  A. Alexander Selkirk? Nine years. In 1703, the old pirate
> got mad at his ship's master, one Capt. William Dampier,
> and jumped overboard. Slept that night on the beach. Next
> morning he hailed the ship, but the captain just laughed
> at him and set sail. It was the same Capt. Dampier who
> saw Selkirk's campfire smoke nine years later and sent a
> boat ashore. Selkirk was still mad. Madder. Took two days
> to talk him into going aboard.
> ==============================================
 
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 29 09:17:39 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 01:17:39 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971128232604.21775D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <37qXge47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



"David E. Smith" <dave at bureau42.ml.org> writes:

>
> On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Ralphie should get together with David Smith, the operator of the bureau42
> > remailer, who filters out whatever contents he doesn't like. Anything
> > coming out of bureau42 remailer is personally approved by David Smith
> > who bears full civil and criminal responsibility for the contents he approv
>
> This charge is completely unfounded, and completely bogus besides.

Proof, please.

[I've verified that Dave filters out "poltically incorrect" messages sent
to the cypherpunks list, while permitting harrassment of Dr. Grubor]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 29 10:39:53 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 02:39:53 +0800
Subject: At night, the ice weasels come...
Message-ID: <34803754.42E5@dev.null>



http://www.pretext.com/nov97/short3.htm

"Don't get me wrong. I'm not a technophobe. I just think people need to 
practice safe surfing," Cottrell says.
 "In some ways the Anonymizer is the virtual condom." 

From: 'The Anonymizer'--by Clay Hathorn






From loki at infonex.com  Sat Nov 29 13:15:37 1997
From: loki at infonex.com (Lance Cottrell)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 05:15:37 +0800
Subject: At night, the ice weasels come...
In-Reply-To: <34803754.42E5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0a63304169d@[206.170.115.5]>



That URL seems to be incorrect. The article is at
http://www.pretext.com/nov97/shorts/short3.htm

	-Lance

At 9:40 AM -0600 11/29/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>http://www.pretext.com/nov97/short3.htm
>
>"Don't get me wrong. I'm not a technophobe. I just think people need to
>practice safe surfing," Cottrell says.
> "In some ways the Anonymizer is the virtual condom."
>
>From: 'The Anonymizer'--by Clay Hathorn


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki at infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Nov 29 13:36:03 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 05:36:03 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <37qXge47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971129150313.20056A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>



> 
> Proof, please.
> 
> [I've verified that Dave filters out "poltically incorrect" messages sent
> to the cypherpunks list, while permitting harrassment of Dr. Grubor]
> 

Harrasment of Dr. Grubor will be a demonstration sport during the next 
Olympic Winter Games.






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 29 14:12:13 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:12:13 +0800
Subject: How to spot a hate group [was Re: Update On Jim Bell]
Message-ID: <01bcfd12$19c34ec0$LocalHost@jonathan-s-pc>



- -----Original Message-----
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan at usit.net>
[snip]
>Professor Joyce Malcolm of Bentley College in Massachusetts
>was the chair of the panel on which I sat.  She showed me
>something quite disturbing from another presentation that
>she had attended.  The paper attempted to determine if the
>Montana Militia could be considered a "hate group" or
>not.  Among the methods by which they determined this was
>examination of the phrases and concerned in Montana Militia
>literature.  Among the phrases or subjects that would
>classify a group as a "hate group" were:
>
>1. Discussion of the Bill of Rights, especially the
>Second Amendment.
>
>2. Discussion of military oppression, in the U.S. or
>elsewhere.
>
>3. Discussion of the Framers of our government.
>
>She showed me a copy of the criteria used by the criminologists
>in question, and these were among the criteria.  I guess
>the ACLU and Amnesty International are hate groups also.
>Very disturbing.

No wonder the EPA and every other bureaucrat is stocking up on weaponry of
all kinds...Almost everyone in America is an anti-government extremist hate
group member.  Here is some "hate speech" from a Dead White Guy� to ponder:

"They tell us we are weak�-unable to cope with so formidable an
adversary.  But when shall we be stronger?  Will it be next week, or the
next year?  Will it be when we are totally disarmed?  Shall we acquire the
means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging
the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies have bound us hand and
foot?  We are not weak if we make a proper use of the means which the God
of nature has placed in our power.  Millions of people armed in the hold
cause of Liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are
invincible.  Besides, we shall not fight our battles alone.  There is a
just God who presides over the destinies of nations, who will raise up
friends to fight our battles for us.  The battle, is not to the strong
alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave.  Many cry 'Peace,
peace'-�but there is no peace.  The war is actually begun!  Why stand we
here idle?  Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the
price of chains and slavery?  Forbid it Almighty God!  I know not what
course others may take; but as for me, give me Liberty or give me death!"
 -- Patrick Henry

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
 -- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov 29 14:22:27 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:22:27 +0800
Subject: Message
Message-ID: <199711292215.XAA05590@basement.replay.com>



"On the Internet nobody knows I'm a dog unless I want them to,"
to rephrase a well known cartoon.

Anonymous wrote:

>Cypherpunk technologies will be a major force to eliminate racism.
>With privacy protected transactions, the color of a person's skin, his
>religion and his ethnicity are no longer apparent.

>Cypherpunks need to build bridges to minority communities, to show them
>how these technologies can advance their cause.

Why not set up a website where minority websurfers could go to read about 
privacy issues and how pseudonymity is to their (and everyone's) benefit.  
After all, how can another person discriminate against you when that person 
knows practically nothing about you (e.g., name, age, race, religion, 
geographic location, etc)?  This would be an excellent way to expand 
cypherpunk technologies, don't you think?






From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Sat Nov 29 15:28:10 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:28:10 +0800
Subject: GAK
Message-ID: <383c6dafd4d5885ee2dfc6e0566ad5d1@squirrel>



>Timothy C. Mayonnaise is not only as queer as
>a three dollar bill, but he is also into
>having sex with children.
>
>  ___
> <*,*> Timothy C. Mayonnaise
> [`-']
> ' - '

This is a bad thing? In the Land of the Freeh "children" are defined as
"anybody under 18 years of age." A 16 year old is a "child" according to the
government but obviously isn't such. 

The "before 18 they're too immature" argument doesn't fly too well. At 18
they don't suddenly become "mature." If they aren't "mature" by about 14,
think of it as evolution in action.

As for homosexuality and/or uniqueness, this is supposed to be protected. Of
course it won't be if Klintonkov gets his way.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov 29 16:37:04 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 08:37:04 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <1def8856eec73e9418353fecabf6da64@anon.efga.org>



At 03:04 PM 11/29/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> 
>> Proof, please.
>> 
>> [I've verified that Dave filters out "poltically incorrect" messages sent
>> to the cypherpunks list, while permitting harrassment of Dr. Grubor]
>> 
>
>Harrasment of Dr. Grubor will be a demonstration sport during the next 
>Olympic Winter Games.
>

Please send the pictures.


AOLNewbieBinaryMonger        






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov 29 16:44:15 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 08:44:15 +0800
Subject: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711300035.BAA23280@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nerthus wrote:
>>"Okay soldier, let's see that pass!"  Is this the treatment accorded
>>to a free man?
>
>Clearly not.  Let me rephrase what I said since it appears it was not
>as obvious as I had thought.
>
>Those who wage war (the politicians/"kings") are rarely the slaves.
>Those who die (the soldiers/citizens) usually are.

Oh, I see what you mean now.  Thanks for the explanation.

>The soldiers and citizens are the pawns and other chessmen on the
>chessboard who are sacrificed to protect the king of their color
>while attempting to checkmate the king of the other color.  All
>chessmen are expendable, except the two kings.  When one of the kings
>is checkmated, the game is over.

Leaving the loser to slouch off toward Doorn, St. Helena, or Asuncion
to die.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 29 17:18:36 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 09:18:36 +0800
Subject: it ain't BLUE anymore!
In-Reply-To: <199711291100.GAA18939@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <34803C5B.1291@dev.null>



brownlist at goplay.com wrote:
> 
> mailbombers?  start your engines ...
> 
> http://www.webpost.net/brownlist

"This site has been removed by the provider due to its abrasive
content."

Looks like it ain't BROWN anymore, either...

BlueMonger







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov 29 17:34:13 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 09:34:13 +0800
Subject: This would also explain AOL...
Message-ID: <199711300115.CAA29691@basement.replay.com>



http://www.pretext.com/nov97/short4.htm

Mark Grimes: "Why do 39,440 people a month look up "Yahoo" on 
  Yahoo!? Maybe too many ate lead paint as children." 

A recent compilation of the 200 most popular keywords submitted to the 
Yahoo! Search engine offers some insights about the types of individuals 
that prowl the Web.

"Baywatch" babe Pam Anderson racked up 172,760 inquiries in a recent 
month to place 12th--two places behind "weather," 10 places ahead of 
"Microsoft," and 92 slots before "Bob Dole." 

  Janet Reno could fine Pamela an inch a day until she ranks equally
with Bob Dole, as a sex symbol. (3,000,000 places ahead of Reno.)

Good News:
"Metallica" (59) finished just ahead of "real estate" and "stock 
quotes"; at No. 82 "anal sex" was just before "cars" and "USA Today."

Bad News:
"Days of Our Lives" (91) came up more frequently than "marijuana" 
(93) and "Beatles" (111)."

Huh?:
The top 50: sex, chat, Playboy, Netscape software,
nude, porno, games, porn, weather, Penthouse,
Pamela Anderson, pornography, pussy, Persian Kitty,
maps, Halloween, music, adult, chat rooms, erotica,
Microsoft, jokes, shareware, magazines, pictures,
employment, jobs, erotic, gay, Jenny McCarthy,
Netscape, bondage, lingerie, hardcore, Cindy
Crawford, Hustler, ESPN, supermodels, Disney, Star
Wars, girls, movies, Star Trek, mIRC, genealogy,
screen savers, Japan, soccer, and tits. 

  I suppose that a more cynical mind than mine might make much of
the fact that the comma between 'Microsoft' and 'jokes' may well
be a 'typo'.
  As to why both mentions of Netscape's name are followed by a
plethora of requests for information on various forms of sexual
perversion, I would like to point out that I am not the *only*
person who uses Netscape and Yahoo, so it obviously could not
be *totally* due to my search habits.

TruthMonger






From loans at xitau.de  Sun Nov 30 10:57:48 1997
From: loans at xitau.de (loans at xitau.de)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 10:57:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Business Loans For You
Message-ID: <199711301856.SAA17500@equinox.unr.edu>



Do you need to increase profits in your business?
Do you need venture capital to get you there?
Are you frustrated with your bank turning you down
for the capital your business needs to grow?  Be frustrated
no more.  Zion Worldwide can put you in touch with
hundreds of offshore investors waiting to invest in a
viable business just like yours.

What Is An Offshore Investor?

An offshore investor may be an offshore bank or a group of
offshore lenders looking to invest in and to lend money to
viable business enterprises both in the United States and
elsewhere around the world.

Why Not My Own Bank?

U.S. federal banking law permits American banks to tie up
a lot of their money in overhead expenses and advertising
costs.  Which means that American banks have less money
to lend out to their customers (the ones who gave the banks
their money in the first place!).  Offshore banks, on the other
hand, are required by offshore banking rules and regulations
to lend more of their customer's money to, you guessed it,
their customers.  And groups of offshore lenders (often referred
to as 'conglomerates'), are not necessarily restricted  to the
number or type of businesses that they can invest in, as long
as these businesses are viable and show potential for future growth and profit.

How Do I Take Advantage Of These Offshore Lending Opportunities?

Zion Worldwide works with literally dozens and dozens of offshore banks and conglomerates
across the world to put American businesses in touch with reputable offshore
lenders.  By submitting an offshore loan application to Zion Worldwide, your
businesss automatically becomes eligible for the following types of offshore funding:

Venture Capital Loans, Signature Loans, Equipment Leasing, Cash Grants,
Self Liquidating Loans and a $25,000 Line of Offshore Credit, as well as
offshore corporate credit cards.

How Do I Apply And How Much Does It Cost?

To apply simply write to:

Zion Worldwide
5015 W. Sahara Ave.,
Suite 125,
Las Vegas, NV, 89102.

..and ask for an offshore loan application.  There is a non-refundable
application fee of $200US payable to Zion Worldwide via money order, 
cashier's check, Visa or Mastercard.

Why The $200 Fee?

When you make application for offshore lending opportunities, Zion Worldwide
literally sends your company's loan application to several major funding
institutions around the globe.  The $200US application fee assists our
organization to cover the costs of shipping your loan application documents
around the world.

How Does Zion Worldwide Make Its Money?

When your company's loan application arrives back to our office,
Zion Worldwide receives a brokerage fee from our offshore lenders
for finding them viable businesses to invest in.

Can I Apply?

Any viable business in the US or abroad may make application to
Zion Worldwide in order to receive serious consideration from Zion's
offshore lenders.

Is It Hard To Apply?

Absolutely not.  Simply prepare to provide your company's past earnings
as well as future earnings potential, as well as some documented business
plan and, of course, some basic business details (e.g. your company's name,
address, phone, fax etc.) and you're set.  In fact, we want you to succeed in
securing your loan, because when you succeed, we succeed.

Why Is Zion Worldwide Located In Las Vegas?

Nevada is America's last haven for judgment proof corporations (better than Delaware,
better than Wyoming).  Zion Worldwide strives to take full advantage of all of the
incorporation benefits that the State of Nevada provides.

What's The Catch?

Sometimes interest rates on offshore loans are higher than interests rates on similar
loans in the United States.  However, apply for an offshore loan, then immediately
turn around and expand your business with it, and of course, enjoy the increased
profits your business generates, repay your offshore loan early, and the interest
charged to you on your offshore loan will total no more than the interest on a loan
you can (or can't) get in the US.

AnyThing Else?

Nope, except 'Apply Today'
  





From Use-Author-Address-Header at [127.1]  Sat Nov 29 19:02:49 1997
From: Use-Author-Address-Header at [127.1] (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:02:49 +0800
Subject: Another Anti-Privacy Bigot Heard From (was: The Guilmette/Burnore deba
In-Reply-To: <slrn67eevb.fjb.sjsobol@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <c87feca75aa95fb3e51fe7ad0c72f17d@anonymous.poster>



gburnore at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> : The only exception I see is if
> : someone threatens the life or wellbeing of another. Then I can understand
> : why someone that posts anonymously should get into trouble.
> 
> So when someone posting anonymously makes statements about YOU that are
> outright lies what will you say?   Will you consider that part of your
> exception (falling under the well being of another) or will it be under the
> protection from the government part? 
> 
> You totally missed his point and turned it into a freedom of speech thing. 
> 
> Well guess what bozo, it's NOT within someone's rights to post lies about
> another person.  THAT's why it's being done anonymously.  It's not fear of the
> government that's keeping the anon asshole anonymous. It's knowing that if
> his/her identity is discovered, he/she could be held accountable for the
> _LIES_.

What part do you expect the goverment to play in this scenario,
though?  Shall they establish an "Internet Truth Police" squad?

The problem is, for just about every accusation there is another
voice saying that the first accusation is false and counter-accusing
that the original accuser is a "filthy rotten liar".  Neither of
these rival accusations deserves to be believed without supporting
evidence.

It's obvious that when you refer to one party in a debate as an
"anon asshole" that your mind is already made up and you're really
afraid of hearing all the facts.  It is evident that there are a far
larger number of NON-anonymous "assholes" on the net.  Such ad
hominem anti-privacy bigotry only betrays the weakness of your
position.  Ideas can stand on their own and if you must resort to an
ad hominem smear campaign to make your point, you are already well
on your way to losing the debate.  Are you implying that if an
"anonymous asshole" were to say, for example, that the world is flat
that you'd prefer to know the person's name so that you could dig up
dirt to smear him with rather than simply refuting his IDEA?

Why do I get the impression that your modus operandi is to
intimidate potential opponents into remaining silent rather than
refuting their ideas in reasoned, rational debate?

To anyone who hates privacy so much, I'd invite them to post their
snail mail address, home phone number, Social Security number, and
date of birth lest they likewise be accused of "hiding" something.
Most are too hypocritical to do so, of course.

--






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov 29 19:48:07 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:48:07 +0800
Subject: Digital Signatures
Message-ID: <199711300337.EAA14202@basement.replay.com>



You can't see it up here, but this is a signed message using a
protocol which is modestly titled "Cantsin Protocol No. 1".
Suggestions for improvement are most welcome.

At the bottom of this message you will find a series of hexadecimal
numbers expressed in ASCII which comprise the signature.  I considered
using ASCII armor or uuencode to store the information, but the
straight numbers are easier to work with.  That is, the components of
the signature are easily manipulated using off the shelf tools such as
Perl.  Also, because certain numbers are freely accessible, the
message is easy to filter without necessarily calling other programs.
It makes it easy to find signed messages using search engines which
are not necessarily aware of encryption protocol formats.

Having the numbers exposed has a nice feel.  It lets you see exactly
what is going on.  It encourages people to investigate the meaning of
the numbers and to think about the information a signature really
conveys.

Cantsin Protocol No. 1 uses El Gamal to sign hashes generated by SHA1.

Executive summary of the signature format:
<Cantsin Protocol No. 1 code> <comments>
<SHA1 hash of public key components>
<SHA1 hash of message>
<offset> <length>
<a>
<b>

The first line is "16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol
No. 1]".  The hexadecimal number was chosen randomly and is the
indicator that this is a Cantsin Protocol No. 1 signature.  The number
was chosen randomly and it is somewhat unlikely that anybody else will
accidently choose it.  The text following the number is just there so
a human reading it will know what they are looking at.  No program
should rely on that text.

The signature begins where the code (i.e., "16A59...") begins - it
need not be preceded by a newline.  (It can be used to sign anything,
in other words.)

The public portion of an El Gamal key consists of three variables p,
g, and y.  p is a large prime, g is a randomly chosen number, and y is
computed using the secret key.  (See "Applied Cryptography" for the
details.  I'm using Schneier's nomenclature.)

Monty Cantsin's public authentication key is:
p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
g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
y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

(This key should not be used for communication.  It is not very well
secured.  Also, I like Adam Back's assertion that authentication keys
should be different from communications keys.)

The second line in the signature is an SHA1 hash of the public key.
The hash is computed on the concatenation of the hexadecimal ASCII
forms of p, g, and y respectively.  There should be no leading zeros.
(Remember to leave off the newline!)

The third line is an SHA1 hash of the message itself.

The fourth line contains an offset and a length to specify the area of
the text which is signed.  The offset is relative to the signature
itself.  That is, the first character of the Cantsin Protocol No. 1
code is at position 0.  As signatures are usually appended, the offset
will usually be the additive inverse of the length.

This is an unobtrusive and highly flexible signature format.  No text
is modified to accommodate the protocol.  No information needs to be
prepended to the text.  This means that signing a document only makes
it longer at the end - the area a reader cares the least about.  You
can sign as often as you like and it won't really matter that much.
This protocol could be used to sign The Declaration of Independence.

Not only that, but it is possible to be highly selective in what is
signed.  The user could sign a portion of a message without modifying
or sabotaging other signatures.  It is completely compatible with
other signature formats.  Not only can you sign the subset of text
which another user signed, but signatures can even overlap.

The last two lines are the signatures themselves.  El Gamal signatures
consist of two values which Schneier calls "a" and "b".

Note that the signature does not contain a time stamp!  Users who want
time stamps can add one in the text.

El Gamal is simple enough that the signature on this message can be
checked using standard Unix tools such as dc version 1.1.  Let's say M
is the SHA1 hash of the message.  It is checked by verifying the truth
of this equation: (y^a * a^b) mod p = g^M mod p.

(dc version 1.1 has an | operator which is used to compute equations
of the from a^b mod n like: a b n |.  The left side of the equation
will be easier to compute if you compute ((y^a mod p) * (a^b mod p))
mod p instead.)

You also need to be able to compute SHA1 hashes.  I've been using
something called "sha1file" which, I believe, originated at Adam
Back's web site.

I have some crude tools for making and verifying these signatures, but
they still need work.  At some point they will be released into the
public domain.

Aside from ordinary message signing, there are at least two good uses
for these signatures.

One is for timestamping services.  Since the signature is unobtrusive,
it would be easy to route a message to all known timestamping
services.  The timestamp can only fail if all timestamping services
fail.  Yet, the message would still be completely readable without any
garbage at the top.

Another is for authenticating messages from the distributed
cypherpunks mailing list machines.  Right now it would be somewhat
ugly to have all three machines signing every message.  But, with this
protocol it just makes each message a little longer.  This would
prevent certain kinds of attack and make it harder to exploit a
compromise of any of the mailing list machines.  (It's harder because
an undeniable trail of inconsistency is left even if the compromiser
has the power to sign messages at will.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Digital Signatures
To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol No. 1]
AF823675BFB992A1CD9CD2EEBC5CDAE4041E6F06
71EA6E4D747292BC2DBF92422A5AF165470E65EC
-1CB9 1CB9
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







From kirby at daltek.net  Sat Nov 29 20:12:32 1997
From: kirby at daltek.net (kirby at daltek.net)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:12:32 +0800
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <199711300247.UAA10832@mercury.gmds.com>




Teddy Turner, of Atlanta >has just Pre-launched an exciting new company
with technology that is going to change the way the world communicates! You
can be a part of it! Have you ever wanted to be in on the ground floor of
something with incredible income potential? The only people who know about
this are the 800 people who were in Atlanta on Nov. 15th and the people
they have told so far. If you are interested in finding out more call this
number:
1-800-775-5953 ext.1106. If you like what you hear email me back and I will
get a hold of you and give you details about this exciting new business!
Congratulations! You've accomplished the hardest part, finding this
opportunity!

Regards,
Kerwin

P.S. I'm finding this is the perfect business to do on the Internet!








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 29 20:38:08 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:38:08 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971129150313.20056A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <B6Ryge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Rabid Wombat <wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> > [I've verified that Dave filters out "poltically incorrect" messages sent
> > to the cypherpunks list, while permitting harrassment of Dr. Grubor]
>
> Harrasment of Dr. Grubor will be a demonstration sport during the next
> Olympic Winter Games.

To verify that Dave Smith filters the contents he doesn't like (and assumes
full responsibility for the content he does pass through), conduct this
simple experiment: try sending an ASCII art article criticial of Timmy
Mayonaise via Dave Smith's bureau42 remailer and see if it shows up.

For example:

To: remailer at bureau42.ml.org

::
Request-Remailing-To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA patent

Timmy C[...] May is a slant-eyed, rice-gibbling jap in a redneck disguise.

             ---._.---
            /    |     \
           /     *      \
          (      @@      )
          /   _/-||-\_   \
         /   '/  ||  \`   \
        /    /   ()   \    \
       /    /|        |\    \
       /   / |        | \   \
      /   / /  o    o  \ \   \
     /   /  (          )  \   \
     <_ ' `--`___'`___'--' ` _>
    /  '~~---   / = \  ---~~`  \
,,,/  /        (  v  )       \  \,,,
\ /  /        @|-' '-|@       \  \ /
 \__/          //////          \__/


Dave Smith bends over for Gary Burnore, Paul Pomes, and the rest
of the Databasix gang.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Nov 29 20:43:04 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:43:04 +0800
Subject: At night, the ice weasels come...
In-Reply-To: <34803754.42E5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <mRsyge2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



TruthMonger <tm at dev.null> writes:

> http://www.pretext.com/nov97/short3.htm
>
> "Don't get me wrong. I'm not a technophobe. I just think people need to
> practice safe surfing," Cottrell says.
>  "In some ways the Anonymizer is the virtual condom."

What will Cottrell do if someone uses his anonymizer(R)[TM] to connect to
someone's web server many times in a row, requesting the same pages, and
the admins of said server whine about "denial of service" attacks?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Sat Nov 29 21:28:00 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:28:00 +0800
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <EPtLawOnbaoGUl8PvUSglw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971129221121.33866A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> May Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya's forgeries 
> get stuck up his ass so he'll have to 
> shit through his filthy mouth for the 
> rest of its miserable life.
> 
> 
>  /~~~\
> {-O^O-} Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya
>  \ o /
>   (-)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From schear at lvdi.net  Sat Nov 29 22:03:26 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:03:26 +0800
Subject: Int'l Computer Law Observer #1
Message-ID: <v03102807b0a6b0a82877@[208.129.55.202]>



>Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:59:32 +0200
>Reply-To: wgalkin at lawcircle.com
>Sender: lawobserver Computer Law Observer
>              <LAWOBSERVER at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
>From: "William S. Galkin" <wgalkin at lawcircle.com>
>Subject:      Int'l Computer Law Observer #1
>To: LAWOBSERVER at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
>
>                  **PREMIER ISSUE**
>                 ==================
>          ===============================
>     ===========================================
>        INTERNATIONAL COMPUTER LAW OBSERVER
>              December, 1997 -- No.1
>     ===========================================
>          ===============================
>                 ==================
>
>      PLEASE FREELY REDISTRIBUTE THIS ISSUE!!!
>
>Welcome to the Premier Issue of the International Computer Law Observer
>(ICLO). The ICLO is an e-mail report providing monthly coverage of
>significant legal developments from around the world relating to computers,
>technology and the Internet. Back issues and a listing of the Editorial
>Board can be found at http://www.lawcircle.com/observer . The
>Editor-in-Chief, William S. Galkin, Esq., is located in Ramat Gan, Israel,
>and can be reached for comments at wgalkin at lawcircle.com .
>

[big snip]
>--- SOUTH AFRICA ---
>
>[BOTTOM LINE] COURT GIVES NO SANCTION FOR ONLINE GAMBLING
>
>[WHAT HAPPENED] Johannesburg, Gauteng Province, South Africa - In South
>Africa's  first Internet related judgment, the Witwatersrand division of
>the  High Court of South Africa ruled in late October 1997 that it would
>not sanction online gambling in its jurisdiction [Ruben Olivier v The
>Minister of Safety and Security and the MEC for Safety and Security  of the
>Province of Gauteng]
>
>[WHY IT HAPPENED] The cyber cafe had  brought an application to court for
>the return of certain computer equipment comprising of a number of
>networked personal computers, the network server and certain peripherals
>following on the search of the cafe's premises and the seizure of the
>computer equipment.
>
>In refusing the application, the Court held that it was lawful for  the
>South African Police to impound computer equipment owned by a  cyber cafe,
>which was allegedly being used for online gambling.
>
>In terms of existing legislation, Internet gambling is illegal and the
>owner of the site is in contravention of national and provincial Gambling
>Acts, where they exist.
>
>[THE SIGNIFICANCE] Many experts have indicated that this case is indicative
>of the  controversy and complexity surrounding the issue of regulating
>Internet related transactions. Local gambling experts argue that the
>proliferation of online gambling threatens to undermine the development of
>a legal casino industry in South Africa at a time when companies are vying
>with one another for casino licenses. Many such companies are investing
>billions of rands in setting up in infrastructure development, but are
>threatened with competition from Internet gambling site operators who can
>set up shop online with ease.
>
>[INFORMATION  SOURCES] Cape Times Newspaper, 27 October 1997 edition 2.)
>Michael Silber - Werksmans attorneys
>
>[CONTRIBUTING EDITOR] Hofmeyr Herbstein Gihwala, Inc. - Contact: Lance
>Michalson - e-mail: lbm at hofmeyr.co.za







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 29 22:05:23 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:05:23 +0800
Subject: At night, the ice weasels come...
In-Reply-To: <34803754.42E5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971129215812.00696904@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 11:24 PM 11/29/1997 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>What will Cottrell do if someone uses his anonymizer(R)[TM] to connect to
>someone's web server many times in a row, requesting the same pages, and
>the admins of said server whine about "denial of service" attacks?

The Anonymizer has blocking capability to take care of web pages
whose administrators don't want anonymous users.  I don't know if
the Anonymizer automatically blocks sites that are getting pounded on,
but it can at least stop the problem after it gets noticed.
The Terms Of Service are at http://www.anonymizer.com/terms.html ;
"Abusers of the Anonymizer can expect no anonymity."
Of course, the Anonymizer maintains minimal information about its users,
so it's not clear whether you'll just lose your $15 account or 
get hunted down by dogs.

Of course, if the Anonymizer is using caching, nobody'll know to whine,
except for pages which are designed to subvert the dominant paradigm
by being uncacheable and different every time, and they deserve
Darwin's attention anyway.

Free anonymizer users aren't much risk, with 30 second delays,
assuming the anonymizer still places some limits on how many total
page hits per second or kbps it'll do for free.
Paid anonymizer users probably have more potential to cause damage,
since they're not time-limited, and using automated systems for
high-speed requests is against terms of service.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 29 22:28:55 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:28:55 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
Message-ID: <3480984B.151F@dev.null>



...you fit the 'profile' of the OKC bomber.

Be afraid...be very afraid.

TruthMonger







From tm at dev.null  Sat Nov 29 22:32:49 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:32:49 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971129150313.20056A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <34809A5A.995@dev.null>



Rabid Wombat wrote:

> > [I've verified that Dave filters out "poltically incorrect" messages sent
> > to the cypherpunks list, while permitting harrassment of Dr. Grubor]

> 
> Harrasment of Dr. Grubor will be a demonstration sport during the next
> Olympic Winter Games.

Oh, great. Now it's going to be ruined by crass commercialism.

GruborMonger
"The Official TruthMonger for the 1998-2448 Nuclear Winter Olympic
Games"







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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov 29 22:47:43 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:47:43 +0800
Subject: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b0a402308a96@[204.254.21.48]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971129223310.0072c8d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 12:45 AM 11/28/1997 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>	"//Actual, overt// incitement of the overthrow of the government
>	of the United States by force and violence, accompanied by the
>	language of direct and imminent incitement, is not freedom of
>	expression but a violation of Court-upheld legislative
>	proscriptions; yet the //theoretical// advocacy of such
>	overthrow, on the other hand, has been a judicially recognized
>	protected freedom since 1957." [See Yates v. United States, 354
>	U.S. 298 (1957), particularly Mr. Justice Harlan's opinion for
>	the 6:1 court.] (Emphasis in the original. --DM)
> http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=354&page=2
Actually, the linewrap munged the "page=298" at the end, leaving a 
reference is Reid vs. Covert, another fascinating case, 
dealing with the limits on US jurisdiction on citizens outside the 48 states,
in particarticular military jurisdiction and territorial jurisdictions
(including pointers to the cases about confiscation of Mormon Church property
during the Defense Of Marriage\\\\\\\\\\\anti-polygamy legislation.)

Yates, a case about the legalization of Communism, is at
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=354&page=298 .
While the primary opinion of the court was as above, the court
unfortunately stopped short of the blazingly absolutist defense of free speech
by Justice Hugo Black (joined by Douglas), in an opinion that partially
concurs and partially dissents, and is therefore only dicta.
	"I believe that the First Amendment forbids Congress to punish people 
	for talking about public affairs, whether or not such discussion
	incites to action, legal or illegal."   ......

It was either this case or cases like it that spurred the
John Birch Society to their calls for impeaching Earl Warren,
even before that pinko compounded his anti-Americanism by
insisting that cops read people their rights and get search warrants.

As for the case of May vs. Reno, 99 US 666 (1999) (:-), I've never
heard Tim call for the violent overthrow of the US government.
He's called for a far more dangerous method of getting rid of it
(rendering it obsolete and letting the public catch on at their own speed),
and he's also expressed the position that if a bunch of 
black-hooded thugs invade his house some night he'll defend himself
first and not worry about checking their bodies for stinkin' badges
or designer logos on their backs until the bullets stop flying.  

Not guilty.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 29 23:12:35 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:12:35 +0800
Subject: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b0a402308a96@[204.254.21.48]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0a6b13b30f6@[207.167.93.63]>



At 11:33 PM -0700 11/29/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>As for the case of May vs. Reno, 99 US 666 (1999) (:-), I've never
>heard Tim call for the violent overthrow of the US government.
>He's called for a far more dangerous method of getting rid of it
>(rendering it obsolete and letting the public catch on at their own speed),
>and he's also expressed the position that if a bunch of
>black-hooded thugs invade his house some night he'll defend himself
>first and not worry about checking their bodies for stinkin' badges
>or designer logos on their backs until the bullets stop flying.
>
>Not guilty.

An almost complete summary of my stance.

But Bill left out the third leg of my tripod, that I expect to wake up some
morning and learn that some major city, perhaps Washington, D.C. has been
nuked or bugged.

And, as I am fond of saying, I doubt I'll shed any tears.

(Which got first twisted into "Tim wants to see D.C. nuked) (possibly
true), and then further mutated into "Tim is involved in a conspiracy to
help terrorists destroy major cities" (possibly true)).

Fortunately for me, none of these legs of the tripod are (yet) illegal,
though I gather from what I saw of several of Hettinga's recent foamings
that he thinks they should be.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








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From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov 29 23:22:03 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:22:03 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <3480984B.151F@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0a6b4e40d3f@[207.167.93.63]>



At 3:33 PM -0700 11/29/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>...you fit the 'profile' of the OKC bomber.
>
>Be afraid...be very afraid.

Or tell them to fuck off.

I was stopped by the storm troopers on the Stanford University campus for
this reason--"you fit the profile"--and asked to let them inspect my
briefcase and jacket pockets. I stood my ground and said "No."

Of course, Stanford being private property, they escorted me off the campus.

(However, it was Stanford Sheriffs, representing the (alleged) city of
Stanford, CA, who did the stop-and-escort-off routine, so one wonders about
the lines being blurred between private and governmental functions.)

As computers proliferate, "fitting the profile" is becoming the de facto
way to stop any suspicious persons, or others they want to harass.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From attila at primenet.com  Sun Nov 30 01:09:36 1997
From: attila at primenet.com (attila)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:09:36 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0a6b4e40d3f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.971130084225.2104A-100000@usr07.primenet.com>



On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 3:33 PM -0700 11/29/97, TruthMonger wrote:
> >...you fit the 'profile' of the OKC bomber.
> >
> >Be afraid...be very afraid.
> 
   hell, I didnt go to defend me country; Arlo wrote that song dancing
   with the shrink --but I went to kill my share.

> Or tell them to fuck off.
> 
> I was stopped by the storm troopers on the Stanford University campus for
> this reason--"you fit the profile"--and asked to let them inspect my
> briefcase and jacket pockets. I stood my ground and said "No."
> 
    well, that's good so far. of course, you are ornery enough to stick up
    for your rights --what few we have that have not been fucked over
    totally by Bubba who sees no reason for privacy since only crooks have
    reason not to be transparent.

> Of course, Stanford being private property, they escorted me off the campus.
> 
    aint much that is important enough to put up with those attitudes.
    we are what we are --start bending over to polish the apple and you'll
    be just like them.

> (However, it was Stanford Sheriffs, representing the (alleged) city of
> Stanford, CA, who did the stop-and-escort-off routine, so one wonders about
> the lines being blurred between private and governmental functions.)
> 
    Stanford was in Palo Alto the last time I looked... is the "City of
    Stanford" a new chartered entity inside Palo Alto? to permit "real"
    law enforcement, not just hired guns?


> As computers proliferate, "fitting the profile" is becoming the de facto
> way to stop any suspicious persons, or others they want to harass.
> 
    yup. either look like the average joe couch potato or expect to be 
    profiled out for special treatment.  anyone with the fire still
    burning in their eyes is obviously some sort of maniac with a 
    problem.  "yes, officer, I just happen to normally carry a gallon
    of naplam in my briefcase... it's my lunch down at the circus."

    maybe Chelsea has them all nervous. 

> --Tim May
> 
> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
>
   no, Tim, F{reeh,uck} wants a biochip to go along with the highway
   sensors for your car.

	attila out  ...again.

__________________________________________________________________________
    go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say:
      yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off.
_________________________________________________________________ attila__

    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....
    There is no safety this side of the grave.  Never was; never will be.







From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 30 01:50:41 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:50:41 +0800
Subject: Death Penalty Expanded
Message-ID: <v03102805b0a6d8a372fc@[207.167.93.63]>




What's next, the death penalty for unregistered crypto?

No doubt Swinestein plans to introduce her own version of this in Amerika.

--Tim

# Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 6:43:53 PST
#
#    TAIPEI, Nov 24 (AFP) - Taiwan brought in new heavy penalties
# Monday to curb illegal firearm possession in an effort to tackle a
# rising crime wave here.
#    Under an amended law effective from Monday anyone caught
# manufacturing, selling or transporting illegal firearms faces the
# death penalty. Previously the law stipulated a maximum penalty of
# seven years jail.
#    The move comes just five days after the island's most wanted
# fugitive gave himself up to police.
#    "The amened law is expected to emerge as a deterrent force to
# effectively keep at bay illegal holding of firearms," President Lee
# Teng-hui said.
#    In the past, nearly 80 percent of offenders under the law faced
# only 18 months jail and were often released on parole after serving
# a third of their sentence, official statistics show.







From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 30 02:16:43 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:16:43 +0800
Subject: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <199711260038.BAA09899@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0a6dbb52bae@[207.167.93.63]>



At 5:38 PM -0700 11/25/97, Anonymous wrote:

>There is a widely held belief that cryptoanarchy is an all or nothing
>proposition; that is, the future can be a glorious cryptoanarchy or a
>dismal police state.  (I think this is Tim May's analysis, but perhaps
>others also contributed.)

This is a common misunderstanding of what I (and others) have written. In
particular, as just one item of many, I've never predicted that there will
be some kind of overall "anarchy" (as normally understood, even in the
anarcho-capitalist sense). Rather, I have predicted (correctly, so far)
that certain people, certain organizations, certain entities will use the
new "degrees of freedom" in anonymous, pseudonymous, untraceable,
unsurveillable communications systems to bypass laws, mores, and dominant
institutions. As we are seeing every day, more and more.

The effect is to to create an environment without government intrusion.
This is what I call crypto anarchy.

>It isn't clear to me that these two environments cannot co-exist in a
>stable equilibrium.  Historically, in many societies which practiced
>slavery, large numbers of people were neither slaves nor slave owners.

Sure, and I've said the same thing many times. The governments of the world
are cracking down on "illegal thoughts," and illegal vegetables, illegal
defense items, illegal television programs, and on and on. At the same
time, bootleg channels are proliferating, copyright is being skirted, money
laundering is exploding, and on and on.

The crackdown has the effect of making the sheeple even more obedient and
making the adventurers (the wolves?) even bolder. Technology works for
those who use it.

Very Nietzscheian.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov 30 02:40:44 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:40:44 +0800
Subject: Death Penalty Expanded
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0a6d8a372fc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711301037.FAA12434@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102805b0a6d8a372fc@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/30/97 
   at 03:50 AM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>What's next, the death penalty for unregistered crypto?

>No doubt Swinestein plans to introduce her own version of this in
>Amerika.

Well such laws usually have the opposite affect then intended. If gun
possession becomes a capital offence then when the storm troopers come
what does one have to loose by taking out as many as one can. Or even
better yet taking out the criminal ring leaders before they ever get
around to sending their lackeys to your door.


># Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 6:43:53 PST
>#
>#    TAIPEI, Nov 24 (AFP) - Taiwan brought in new heavy penalties #
>Monday to curb illegal firearm possession in an effort to tackle a #
>rising crime wave here.
>#    Under an amended law effective from Monday anyone caught #
>manufacturing, selling or transporting illegal firearms faces the # death
>penalty. Previously the law stipulated a maximum penalty of # seven years
>jail.
>#    The move comes just five days after the island's most wanted #
>fugitive gave himself up to police.
>#    "The amened law is expected to emerge as a deterrent force to #
>effectively keep at bay illegal holding of firearms," President Lee #
>Teng-hui said.
>#    In the past, nearly 80 percent of offenders under the law faced #
>only 18 months jail and were often released on parole after serving # a
>third of their sentence, official statistics show.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From M0Rtgman at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 30 18:53:32 1997
From: M0Rtgman at hotmail.com (M0Rtgman at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:53:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Greetings
Message-ID: <>


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continues with each new person only bringing 1 new distributor, there 
would be more than 4,000 distributors in your organization at the end of 
a year.  Keep in mind that you only brought in 1 person each month.  
If each person in your organization sold only one system per month, your 
income would be more than $,$$$,000 the first year!  What if your 
organization only did 1/3 of that?  Would you be excited?

4.  Your market is virtually unlimited. - in fact,  there is no 
competition at this time.

5.  No Accounting.  The company keeps track of everything for you and
gives access to your account on-line using your personal computer.  
Track orders, shipping, commissions due, etc...
 
6.  The Need.  Virtually EVERYONE has had or will have some type pain.
Back Pain?  Migraines?  Arthritis?   PMS? You name it!!  Everyone needs
this product.

7.  The Company. has spent years  developing this state of this product.
This is a one of a kind company  - no huge investments - no money up
from the buyer and there is NO Competition for this type of product.
 
8.  The Opportunity.  What a great feeling!  We help people feel better and that can do so much for a family's peace of mind.  And whether you 
would like to make an extra $1,000.00 a month or have visions of grandeur, this program can satisfy your needs.  The financial bottom line...  There will be many millionaires made in the next few years.

9.  It only cost $0.00 to become a distributor(includes your inventory) 
and for that you receive  everything you need to get started;  forms, full color brochures, and a video tape telling you about the company, its product and marketing plan.

                      Then Call me!!!
                     1-888-220-9850
             I will get you in business today
              with no money out of your pocket!!

                      IMPORTANT!!!
        Be sure to include your  Name,  Phone Number
          and Fax Number Immediate Response!

 
 Send email to magnets at pemail.net  to be remove from our list






From M0Rtgman at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 30 18:53:32 1997
From: M0Rtgman at hotmail.com (M0Rtgman at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:53:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Greetings
Message-ID: <>


                       Make $300.00  per Day
                          NO MONEY REQUIRED
                        TO GET INTO BUSINESS
                     UP to $24,000.00 Line of Credit

1.  There are NO UPFRONT COSTS.  You will be in business with virtually
no money out of pocket. All you do is complete the distributor's application along with our financing agreement.  Everybody is approved regardless of  Credit.  You will obtain a credit line of up to $24,000 to start your own business.

2.  You as the distributor receive a commission of up to $1,000 - once
someone is approved and financed to become a distributor.  The company
pays commission twice a month.  The commission is paid even before the
buyer makes their first payment.
And this is important.  There are never any charge backs!
 
3.  You, as the distributor can sign up others distributors and receive
bonuses of $400.00 to $800.00 per sale from distributors under you.  The
marketing plan offers a very attractive bonus plan.  By signing up 1 new
distributor, who does the same within a month, and this pattern 
continues with each new person only bringing 1 new distributor, there 
would be more than 4,000 distributors in your organization at the end of 
a year.  Keep in mind that you only brought in 1 person each month.  
If each person in your organization sold only one system per month, your 
income would be more than $,$$$,000 the first year!  What if your 
organization only did 1/3 of that?  Would you be excited?

4.  Your market is virtually unlimited. - in fact,  there is no 
competition at this time.

5.  No Accounting.  The company keeps track of everything for you and
gives access to your account on-line using your personal computer.  
Track orders, shipping, commissions due, etc...
 
6.  The Need.  Virtually EVERYONE has had or will have some type pain.
Back Pain?  Migraines?  Arthritis?   PMS? You name it!!  Everyone needs
this product.

7.  The Company. has spent years  developing this state of this product.
This is a one of a kind company  - no huge investments - no money up
from the buyer and there is NO Competition for this type of product.
 
8.  The Opportunity.  What a great feeling!  We help people feel better and that can do so much for a family's peace of mind.  And whether you 
would like to make an extra $1,000.00 a month or have visions of grandeur, this program can satisfy your needs.  The financial bottom line...  There will be many millionaires made in the next few years.

9.  It only cost $0.00 to become a distributor(includes your inventory) 
and for that you receive  everything you need to get started;  forms, full color brochures, and a video tape telling you about the company, its product and marketing plan.

                      Then Call me!!!
                     1-888-220-9850
             I will get you in business today
              with no money out of your pocket!!

                      IMPORTANT!!!
        Be sure to include your  Name,  Phone Number
          and Fax Number Immediate Response!

 
 Send email to magnets at pemail.net  to be remove from our list






From Use-Author-Address-Header at [127.1]  Sun Nov 30 03:12:33 1997
From: Use-Author-Address-Header at [127.1] (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:12:33 +0800
Subject: Another Anti-Privacy Bigot Heard From (was: The Guilmette/Burnore deba
In-Reply-To: <slrn67eevb.fjb.sjsobol@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <ec245f85c0797976e6237c8c77306649@anonymous.poster>



gburnore at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 03:48:14 GMT, eridani+spam at netcom.com wrote:
> 
> : In article <c87feca75aa95fb3e51fe7ad0c72f17d at anonymous.poster>,
> : Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>  wrote:
> : [same ole same ole]
> : 
> : Gary said THE anon asshole.  That's you, bubba.  Your writing style and
> : your tiresome beating of the same old drum give you away every time.  
> : 
> : Don't try to make this into Gary L. Burnore (and me, of course, don't
> : forget me) against everyone who posts anonymously.  It wasn't that way
> : from the start and it ain't that way now.  This is about YOU and the
> : smear campaign that YOU conduct from behind an anonymous remailer.
> 
> The anonasshole is now working on his "way out of this".  Expect many more of
> his posts to contain bits of how more than one person posting anonymously is
> making the accusations.   All is falling down around the anonasshole. 
>  
> : <cue more lies and distortions from THE anon cretin>
> 
> We'd expect no less.  I do wonder how long it will take before those who
> believe remailers are a good thing start to realise this asshole has it in for
> them.  Everything it posts could be used by the anti-remailer front as a
> reason to shut them all down.
> 
> 
>          gburnore at netcom dot com   or  gburnore at netcom databasix com          
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                   How you look depends on where you go.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary L. Burnore                       |  �۳�ݳ޳�ݳ��ۺݳ޳�ݳݳ޳�ݳ��۳
>                                       |  �۳�ݳ޳�ݳ��ۺݳ޳�ݳݳ޳�ݳ��۳
> DOH!                                  |  �۳�ݳ޳�ݳ��ۺݳ޳�ݳݳ޳�ݳ��۳
>                                       |  �۳ 3 4 1 4 2  ݳ޳ 6 9 0 6 9 �۳
> spamgard(tm):  zamboni                |     Official Proof of Purchase
> ===========================================================================
>              PGPprint: C63B CF4E 1B71 4D7E C6F8 AF4E 338D 5CB4
>     KeyID: 0x0F7EDBD9 (RSA)     finger gburnore at netcom.com for public key
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was an impressive tantrum that you and Belinda just staged.  I
suppose you thought it would distract attention from the fact that
you still refuse to reveal what your motive was for harassing Jeff
Burchell this summer in a failed attempt to get him to turn over the
logs containing the names and e-mail addresses of everyone who
either sent or received an anonymous message through his remailer.

Your attempt to spread F.U.D. (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) among
the remailer user community is reminiscent of the "Church" of
$cientology's similarly rabid anti-remailer tactics.  Your fanciful
posts about "anonymous assholes", "cyber stalkers", and other bovine
excrement don't even make good fiction anymore.  I'll take ElRon's
sci-fi over yours any day.

If posts from "anon assholes" really offend your sensitive feelings,
then you might want to stay away from most of the NGs where you've
been posting your blather.  SUGGESTION: stick with "safe" groups
like comp.org.cauce where anonymous posts are banned and content is
censo^h^h^h^h^hmoderated to ensure an appropriate level of political
correctness.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov 30 03:46:13 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:46:13 +0800
Subject: Anti-Message
Message-ID: <f4032a4ed89492586e92c98454eb81bb@anon.efga.org>



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> "On the Internet nobody knows I'm a dog unless I want them to,"
> to rephrase a well known cartoon.

  Wasn't that Toto, explaining why he/she is a Master Baiter of
Deception?

> Anonymous wrote:
> 
> >Cypherpunk technologies will be a major force to eliminate racism.
> >With privacy protected transactions, the color of a person's skin, his
> >religion and his ethnicity are no longer apparent.

  This is why it is essential to take every opportunity to attack
the virtual ethinicity of nyms such as NoNookie Masturbateshi.
  In a world that threatens to reduce us all to a nameless, faceless
collection of bits and bytes, ones and zeros, it is essential that
we hang on, as long as possible, to those things which may serve as
tools to separate us from one another, thus helping to keep us from 
becoming nothing more than generic fodder for the New Electronic 
World Order.

> >Cypherpunks need to build bridges to minority communities, to show them
> >how these technologies can advance their cause.

  Cypherpunks need to burn bridges to the wolves clothing themselves
with the flag of democracy, who are attempting to form us all into
'equal' socialist cogs designed to serve the Evil Machine.
  Cypherpunks need to show minorities how new technologies can be
used to retain and strengthen the differences between individuals,
and to evolve new, virtual minorities.

> Why not set up a website where minority websurfers could go to read about
> privacy issues and how pseudonymity is to their (and everyone's) benefit.

  So that we can live in a world where hockey players are no longer
allowed to settle their own differences and do their time in the
penalty box, but are, instead, sent for 'sensitivity training' when
they commit Politically Incorrect infractions during a game?

> After all, how can another person discriminate against you when that person
> knows practically nothing about you (e.g., name, age, race, religion,
> geographic location, etc)?  

  Easy as pie...
  They can discriminate against you based on the virtual model of 
you that they build, based on what you reveal about yourself via 
your thoughts and attitudes, you young, commie-pinko, nigger-loving,
Jew-hating, northern lattitude, piece of shit cocksucker!

> This would be an excellent way to expand
> cypherpunk technologies, don't you think?

  Fuck no!
  Cypherpunk technologies should be used to enable individuals to
build and join in new ElectroMagnetic minorities of their own choosing,
as they find their individuality being slowly stripped away by the 
New DEMOCoRporATIC World Order.
  Cypherpunks should prepare the citizens of the Information Age to
use and develop the ElectroMagnetic tools which will allow us to
survive in freedom, choosing our own allies and enemies, our own
fate, in a virtual world where wars will be fought over privacy,
access, bandwidth, virtual identity...

  ElectroMagnetic Hitler only wants .gov...
  "They came for the 0's, and I wasn't a 0, so I didn't speak up..."
  When Freeh was Fuhrer, the email ran on time...
  From each, according to his CPU speed--to each, according to his 
    baud-rate...
  Give me access, or give me death...
  The rights of the citizen to encrypt data shall not be abridged...

Nervous







From ccs at dev.null  Sun Nov 30 04:00:47 1997
From: ccs at dev.null (CypherPunks Chief SpokesPerson)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:00:47 +0800
Subject: December's Phrase
Message-ID: <34815354.5A7@dev.null>



With November drawing to a close, WE will be winding down OUR use of
the phrase, "ad hominem."
The Official CypherPunk Phrase of the Month, for December, will be:
  "Ad gaolas deliberandas"

Any disputes over the proper meaning and use of this phrase will be
settled by Jim Bell's judge (once he comes out of hiding).






From loki at infonex.com  Sun Nov 30 22:04:13 1997
From: loki at infonex.com (Lance Cottrell)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:04:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <35071a4de8a2c6f6cf77914c7747760d@anonymous.poster>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0a801cade82@[206.170.115.5]>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The risks of allowing pasted From: lines far outweigh the benefits. Pasting
of From lines makes remailer operators much more vulnerable to charges of
fostering forgery rather than simple anonymity.

Spam baiting is another obvious risk. Forged postings with deplorable
content will bring down retribution on the forgery victim. Forged From
lines can also be used to subscribe victims to thousands of mailing lists.

The uses of this "feature" can be duplicated with other mechanisms such as
nym-servers, which provide persistent unique From lines without the
possibility of forgery of arbitrary addresses. Users desiring greater
security can simply point the reply capability of the nym server at the
nearest /dev/null.


	-Lance



- ----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki at infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
- ----------------------------------------------------------


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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 30 08:13:57 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:13:57 +0800
Subject: New free speech oriented civil rights site
Message-ID: <199711301603.RAA23723@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> wrote:
>Cypherpunks need to build bridges to minority communities, to show
>them how these technologies can advance their cause.

Members of abused minority groups should be pretty much in sync with a
lot of concerns held by cypherpunks.  When we talk about police
brutality and concentration camps, most of us, as well as our friends
and relatives, have little direct experience.  This is not true of
many members of minority groups.

Sounds like a nice project.  Good luck!

>Racist comments by supposedly respected list members are harmful and
>must be countered in order to show that these views do not reflect
>the feelings of most cypherpunks.

If we do our job properly, the cypherpunk public image won't
matter. ;-)

>Cypherpunk technologies will be a major force to eliminate racism.
>With privacy protected transactions, the color of a person's skin,
>his religion and his ethnicity are no longer apparent.  People will
>be able to succeed on merit - and not the "good old boys" definition
>of merit, where somehow only white males seem to have what it takes.

White males are a minority group.  Also, I believe you are
overestimating the effects of racism when it comes to hiring talented
technical professionals.  If not, there is a tremondous arbitrage
opportunity out there.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From jeffden at c2i2.com  Sun Nov 30 10:38:34 1997
From: jeffden at c2i2.com (Crandall)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 02:38:34 +0800
Subject: Fw: Virus Warning!!  IMPORTANT!!!!
In-Reply-To: <19971130182226.29744.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.0045464644454e203030303730303037@MAPI.to.RFC822>





----------
: Date: Sunday, November 30, 1997 10:22:19
: From: THE.DUKE a.k.a. Perrin
: To: Biscuit; my_bath_tub at innocence.com; parcha at hotmail.com; Jeff Crandall
: (work); deanna at keylink.net; cjensen at smtplink.rockford.edu; yablo at hotmail.com;
: Doug; Here; Denise; flood69 at hotmail.com; Goddess; Guipe;
: nailbomb666 at hotmail.com; pierre at netins.net; jewlie at nwiowa.com;
: mansonswonka at hotmail.com; jonesy at mindless.com; Luvdust; Me; Wales; Nick;
: Nicole; philip at infospeedway.net; khanshaw at mindspring.com; Ryan; Sara Wilson;
: shandave at hotmail.com; tabnit at hotmail.com; thetigress_ at hotmail.com; Tom
: Tindell; Tony Ortega; Yankee1428 at aol.com; wrightk at tron.cochise.cc.az.us
: Subject: Virus Warning!!  IMPORTANT!!!!
:
:
:
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: ****************************************************************
:          WARNING, CAUTION, DANGER, AND BEWARE!
:          Gullibility Virus Spreading over the Internet!
: ****************************************************************
:
:
: WASHINGTON, D.C.--The Institute for the Investigation of Irregular
: Internet Phenomena announced today that many Internet users are
: becoming infected by a new virus that causes them to believe without
: question every groundless story, legend, and dire warning that shows
: up in their inbox or on their browser.  The Gullibility Virus, as it
: is called, apparently makes people believe and forward copies of silly
: hoaxes relating to cookie recipes, email viruses, taxes on modems, and
: get-rich-quick schemes [perhaps conspiracy theories should be included
: here].
:
: "These are not just readers of tabloids or people who buy lottery
: tickets based on fortune cookie numbers," a spokesman said. "Most are
: otherwise normal people, who would laugh at the same stories if told
: to them by a stranger on a street corner."  However, once these same
: people become infected with the Gullibility Virus, they believe
: anything they read on the Internet.
:

: "My immunity to tall tales and bizarre claims is all gone," reported
: one weeping victim.  "I believe every warning message and sick child
: story my friends forward to me, even though most of the messages are
: anonymous."
:
: Another victim, now in remission, added, "When I first heard about
: Good Times, I just accepted it without question.  After all, there
: were dozens of other recipients on the mail header, so I thought the
: virus must be true."  It was a long time, the victim said, before she
: could stand up at a Hoaxees Anonymous meeting and state, "My name is
: Jane, and I've been hoaxed."  Now, however, she is spreading the word.
: "Challenge and check whatever you read,"  she says.
:
: Internet users are urged to examine themselves for symptoms of the
: virus, which include the following:
:
:       * the willingness to believe improbable stories
:          without thinking
:
:       * the urge to forward multiple copies of such
:          stories to others
:
:       * a lack of desire to take three minutes to check
:          to see if a story is true
:
: T. C. is an example of someone recently infected.  He told one
: reporter, "I read on the Net that the major ingredient in almost all
: shampoos makes your hair fall out, so I've stopped using shampoo."
: When told about the Gullibility Virus, T. C. said he would stop
: reading email, so that he would not become infected.
:
: Anyone with symptoms like these is urged to seek help immediately.
: Experts recommend that at the first feelings of gullibility, Internet
: users rush to their favorite search engine and look up the item
: tempting them to thoughtless credence.  Most hoaxes, legends, and tall
: tales have been widely discussed and exposed by the Internet
: community.
:
: Courses in critical thinking are also widely available, and there is
: online help from many sources, including
:
:       * Department of Energy Computer Incident Advisory
:          Capability at
:               <a href=http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html>here</a>
:
:       * Symantec Anti Virus Research Center at
:               <a
: href=http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/index.html>here</a>
:
:       * McAfee Associates Virus Hoax List at
:               <a href=http://www.mcafee.com/support/hoax.html>here</a>
:
:       * Dr. Solomons Hoax Page at
:               <a
: href=http://www.drsolomons.com/vircen/hoax.html>here</a>
:
:       * The Urban Legends Web Site at
:               <a href=http://www.urbanlegends.com>here</a>
:
:       * Urban Legends Reference Pages at
:               <a href=http://www.snopes.com>here</a>
:
:       * Datafellows Hoax Warnings at
:               <a
: href=http://www.Europe.Datafellows.com/news/hoax.htm>here</a>
:
: Those people who are still symptom free can help inoculate themselves
: against the Gullibility Virus by reading some good material on
: evaluating sources, such as
:
:       * Evaluating Internet Research Sources at
:               <a
: href=http://www.sccu.edu/faculty/R_Harris/evalu8it.htm>here</a>
:
:       * Evaluation of Information Sources at
:               <a
: href=http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~agsmith/evaln/evaln.htm>here</a>
:
:       * Bibliography on Evaluating Internet Resources at
:               <a
: href=http://refserver.lib.vt.edu/libinst/critTHINK.HTM>here</a>
:
: Lastly, as a public service, Internet users can help stamp out the
: Gullibility Virus by sending copies of this message to anyone who
: forwards them a hoax.
:
: *******************************************************************
:
: This message is so important, we're sending it anonymously!  Forward
: it to all your friends right away!  Don't think about it!  This is not
: a chain letter!  This story is true!  Don't check it out!  This story
: is so timely, there is no date on it!  This story is so important,
: we're using lots of exclamation points!  For every message you forward
: to some unsuspecting person, the Home for the Hopelessly Gullible will
: donate ten cents to itself.  (If you wonder how the Home will know you
: are forwarding these messages all over creation, you're obviously
: thinking too much.)
:
: *****************************************************************
:    ACT NOW!  DON'T DELAY!  LIMITED TIME!  NOT SOLD IN ANY STORE
: *****************************************************************
:
:
:
: ______________________________________________________
: Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
:







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 30 10:46:31 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 02:46:31 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
Message-ID: <199711301839.TAA12277@basement.replay.com>



Rabid Wombat sayeth:
>Harrasment of Dr. Grubor will be a demonstration sport during the next 
>Olympic Winter Games.

Ah, another easy gold for the U.S. Would the people who had him disbarred be
allowed to compete, or are they considered "professionals" in this event?

GruborMonger






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sun Nov 30 10:58:07 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 02:58:07 +0800
Subject: Death Penalty Expanded
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0a6d8a372fc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971130194057.3548A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> What's next, the death penalty for unregistered crypto?
> 
> No doubt Swinestein plans to introduce her own version of this in Amerika.
["Own a gun, be 'put to sleep'" law elided]

And people said my old prediction that we'll see 10 year sentences for use
of illgal crypto were extreme. Swinestein must be drooling at the
prospect. As usual, the masses will love the idea, as long as it (might)
save just one child.

On a completely unrelated note, is there some interest in starting up a
"Cypherpunks Nuclear Physics Study Group"? I recently finished reading
"The Curve of Binding Energy". Fascinating book.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sun Nov 30 11:16:59 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 03:16:59 +0800
Subject: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0a6dbb52bae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971130195826.3548B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> Sure, and I've said the same thing many times. The governments of the world
> are cracking down on "illegal thoughts," and illegal vegetables, illegal
> defense items, illegal television programs, and on and on. At the same
> time, bootleg channels are proliferating, copyright is being skirted, money
> laundering is exploding, and on and on.

I am told that the recent criminalization of warez has led to a rush on
crypto by the warez crowd. A certain Internet juke box I am aware of and
which is serving months worth of uninterupted MP3's just might add SSL
with client certs. 
 
> The crackdown has the effect of making the sheeple even more obedient and
> making the adventurers (the wolves?) even bolder. Technology works for
> those who use it.
> 
> Very Nietzscheian.

Futhermore, if using crypto gets you the gas chamber and putting a
bullet through the head of a fed gets you the gas chamber, it stands  to
reason that more otherwise benign crypto users will be willing to put
bullets through the heads of feds. See the war on illegal vegetables.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 30 11:21:24 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 03:21:24 +0800
Subject: Updating the white bit
In-Reply-To: <199711301603.RAA23723@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b0a75b532766@[207.167.93.63]>



At 9:03 AM -0700 11/30/97, Anonymous wrote:

>Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> wrote:

>>Cypherpunk technologies will be a major force to eliminate racism.
>>With privacy protected transactions, the color of a person's skin,
>>his religion and his ethnicity are no longer apparent.  People will
>>be able to succeed on merit - and not the "good old boys" definition
>>of merit, where somehow only white males seem to have what it takes.
>
>White males are a minority group.  Also, I believe you are
>overestimating the effects of racism when it comes to hiring talented
>technical professionals.  If not, there is a tremondous arbitrage
>opportunity out there.
>
>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief

And the original comment above, that cypherpunk technologies will be a
major force to eliminate racism is only part of the picture....the
technologies also allow race to be considered as participants choose.

There is no reason the Chaumian ideas of credentials, usually with the
example of "age credentials," cannot be trivially extended to race or
gender or whatever credentials. As I wrote in an article which may
(someday) see print in a book about "true names":

"A "politically incorrect" usage of these virtual communities is to use
"race bits" to bar membership by certain races in such communities. This
can even be done without violating the protection of a nym, using the idea
of a "credential without identity." For example, the Aryan Cybernation
could demand that a credential be displayed showing one to be a Caucasian.
Ironically, an equivalent example, but one which is deemed politically
correct by many, is the example of "women-only" forums on the Net. In this
case, a woman could gain access to a women-only forum by demonstrating
possession of a credential with the appropriate gender bit set. (At the
simplest level, this can be done by having other women "vouch" for a
candidate, digitally signing a statement which the candidate presents. A
more robust system, with less opportunity for false use or false transfer
(perhaps to a male, horrors!) would be to implement Chaum's credentials
without identity scheme. But the point is to show how virtual communities
can establish their own access rules and their own enforcement mechanisms."

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 30 11:42:43 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 03:42:43 +0800
Subject: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0a6dbb52bae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0a75dbeb8b4@[207.167.93.63]>



At 12:10 PM -0700 11/30/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> Sure, and I've said the same thing many times. The governments of the world
>> are cracking down on "illegal thoughts," and illegal vegetables, illegal
>> defense items, illegal television programs, and on and on. At the same
>> time, bootleg channels are proliferating, copyright is being skirted, money
>> laundering is exploding, and on and on.
>
>I am told that the recent criminalization of warez has led to a rush on
>crypto by the warez crowd. A certain Internet juke box I am aware of and
>which is serving months worth of uninterupted MP3's just might add SSL
>with client certs.

And look for "copyright violators" to be sold to the public as a Fifth
Horsemen. It may be a tough sell, claiming that those who sell CD-ROMs of
Microsoft Office in Bangkok for $10 are on a par with nuclear terrorists,
but the drumbeats of the WIPO (I think it is called), the OECD, the GATT,
Software Publishers Association, etc., and  concerned interest by Clinton
and Magaziner and the rest of the Gang of the West (sorry for drifting into
Youngspeak here) will cause more crackdowns. After all, if the SPA can
initiate uninvited visits on corporations to look for unregistered copies
of WordPerfect, surely the SPA/GATT/WIPO can order raids on C2Net for
selling "unbreakable crypto" to "software pirates"?

(Cynics might see increased enforcment of Microsoft's claimed property
rights as part of the quid pro quo in the deal they eventually cut with the
Justice Department, the consent decree MS enters into AND the consent
decree Justice secretly enteres into. Such things are hardly new...it's how
the New World Order Military-Industrial Complex has _always_ conducted
business. Pressure is applied, deals are negotiated, and Cabinet officials
become senior corporate officers after leaving the Beltway Swamp...and they
don't even leave the swamp itself, except in title. )

>> The crackdown has the effect of making the sheeple even more obedient and
>> making the adventurers (the wolves?) even bolder. Technology works for
>> those who use it.
>>
>> Very Nietzscheian.
>
>Futhermore, if using crypto gets you the gas chamber and putting a
>bullet through the head of a fed gets you the gas chamber, it stands  to
>reason that more otherwise benign crypto users will be willing to put
>bullets through the heads of feds. See the war on illegal vegetables.

Yep. Some of the cops I encounter at the range and elsewhere are _very_
nervous about the War on Nearly Everything that is going on. They
understand that making more and more things felonies, and mandatory
sentencing guidelines, is turning law enforcement increasingly into a
military situation. Like Chicago during the height of Prohibition, where
the Thompson submachine gun gained fame...and for unsurprisingly similar
reasons....

Cops see the "other side" as having little to lose by responding in kind
with firefights.

(I was chatting with a guy yesterday about a Steyr SSG sniper rifle I've
had my eyes on. With a Kahles scope and match grade ammo, it's been shown
to produce 9-inch groups at 1000 yards...just the thing for reaching out
and touching someone. It turned out, after we'd talked for a while that
he's with the SWAT team for one of the local major counties. He understands
full well that many of those he may be called to go up against are
equipping themselves with the most advanced countersniping weaponry
available to anyone. )

As Lucky and others have noted, if the sentence for drug- or gun-dealing is
death, as it is in more and more countries (when bribery fails, of course),
then law enforcement will increasingly lead to Waco-type
standoffs...military firefights.

If this be war, unleash the dogs of war, or make the most of it, or however
that line goes.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sun Nov 30 12:58:00 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 04:58:00 +0800
Subject: At night, the ice weasels come...
In-Reply-To: <mRsyge2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971130142335.21368A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>





On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> TruthMonger <tm at dev.null> writes:
> 
> > http://www.pretext.com/nov97/short3.htm
> >
> > "Don't get me wrong. I'm not a technophobe. I just think people need to
> > practice safe surfing," Cottrell says.
> >  "In some ways the Anonymizer is the virtual condom."
> 
> What will Cottrell do if someone uses his anonymizer(R)[TM] to connect to
> someone's web server many times in a row, requesting the same pages, and
> the admins of said server whine about "denial of service" attacks?
> 

Make sure you turn off your local cache, Dr.

Anonymizer could also cache frequently requested pages. Also, there are a 
lot better ways to launch an anonymous DoS than to load pages off a 
server via an anonymous proxy.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 30 14:08:57 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:08:57 +0800
Subject: Minsky skeptical of privacy
Message-ID: <199711302158.WAA03654@basement.replay.com>



Bob Hettinga wrote that Marvin Minsky wrote:
>>There's always a plausible reason that can be used to override
>>whatever privacy policies and safeguards are designed into such a
>>system.
>
>If the reasons really are plausible, then those overrides should be
>added to the system design.

There is a curious belief implicit in this statement.  Nobody wants a
backdoor in their own privacy.  This means that the overrides will
have to be mandated by law.

Thus, what Minsky is arguing against is the right of people to protect
their own privacy.

>Perhaps, instead, we should try to design tracking systems that
>include public review mechanisms -- so that whenever anyone (e.g.,
>your employer) accesses your record against the privacy policy,
>they'll be subject to legal sanctions and damages.

It is possible that Minsky is unaware of how ineffective these sorts
of laws are.  Today we have many laws regarding financial secrecy and
the like.  However, there are people who are able to get this sort of
information fairly routinely.  These people tend not to be poor.  They
tend to be close to employers.  The tend not to advertise what they
do.

Not to mention the fact that legal systems and governments can flip
into bad modes where they exploit the authority with which they have
been entrusted.  It is somewhat naive to claim that any government is
not prone to this and that it hasn't happened repeatedly throughout
all of human history.

>Ed Fredkin once asked a number of people how they would feel about a
>new device with which you could select almost anyone in the world,
>and make the device produce a loud noise near them.  They all
>objected angrily.  Then Ed said, "It already exists.  It's called the
>telephone."

This is a cute line and I'm sure it was a hit with the crowd, but
telephones are a major problem.  We can tell how much illegal
wiretapping is going on by the which authorities by how loudly they
scream when people - people who have not been tried or convicted of
any crime! - start encrypting their conversations.

Incidentally, does anybody know what percentage of the research
funding Marvin Minsky has used in his career was directly or
indirectly related to the defense establishment?

The interesting thing about the privacy "debate" is that there is an
exceptionally high correlation between opposition to privacy and the
consumption of public money.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Minsky skeptical of privacy
To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol No. 1]
AF823675BFB992A1CD9CD2EEBC5CDAE4041E6F06
9AA5B934BC5ED71F90FE4E6CB2030FB8627F9162
-A24 A24
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







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 30 14:12:23 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:12:23 +0800
Subject: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971130195826.3548B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130140345.007434d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 11:36 AM 11/30/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>And look for "copyright violators" to be sold to the public as a Fifth
>Horsemen. It may be a tough sell, claiming that those who sell CD-ROMs of
>Microsoft Office in Bangkok for $10 are on a par with nuclear terrorists,

It's not a tough sell at all, just a different sell.
Rather than terrorizing businesses about NuclearNarcoPornoChildTerrorists,
you encourage them into supporting Insured Key Management Hierarchies and
Subpoenable Encryption, giving them protection against Intellectual 
Property Bandits at the minor cost of their own security,
so _they_ won't get in the way of terrorizing the public,
because they've got their business cases covered.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 30 14:28:30 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:28:30 +0800
Subject: Updating the white bit
Message-ID: <199711302218.XAA06054@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
>And the original comment above, that cypherpunk technologies will be
>a major force to eliminate racism is only part of the picture....the
>technologies also allow race to be considered as participants choose.

One benefit of making your living through a wire is that your end of
the wire can be anywhere you like.  So, if you want to be surrounded
exclusively by members of Group X, you are free to go live in some
commune populated exclusively with the members of that group and still
make a living.

To the extent that racism is caused by ignorance, the Net will tend to
reduce it.  But, is this claim really correct or is it simply a slur
against racists?  (The implication being that all U.S. racists live in
the South and that Southerners aren't that smart.)

I believe that many people are racists because they like to be that
way and that more knowledge about other racial groups isn't going to
change that.  Knowledge about someone is not synonymous with liking
them or forming a relationship with them.

The people who are working themselves up into a panic regarding "hate
speech" would appear to agree with me on this point.  What they fear
is that certain ideas will "spread".  That is, as certain people are
exposed to ideas and knowledge they did not have before, they will
become racist or more racist than they already are.  In other words,
there are groups of people who cannot be trusted to think for
themselves.

>Ironically, an equivalent example, but one which is deemed
>politically correct by many, is the example of "women-only" forums on
>the Net.

Oh, you mean the majority group?  The majority group will always
protect its own privileges.  Look how many men are in jail when
compared to women.  Clearly men are an oppressed group. ;-)

Seriously, people like to spend at least some of their time with
people who are a lot like themselves.  This is true of just about
every person on the planet.  A common theme in the United States at
this time is that it is wrong for white males to behave this way, but
it is not wrong for anybody else to behave this way.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Updating the white bit
To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol No. 1]
AF823675BFB992A1CD9CD2EEBC5CDAE4041E6F06
A7F5555FE7CC853AB405C5D8A60E33A0D99B08BE
-8FE 8FE
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







From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Nov 30 14:35:38 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:35:38 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <B6Ryge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971130221445.1837A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>



> To verify that Dave Smith filters the contents he doesn't like (and assumes
> full responsibility for the content he does pass through), conduct this
> simple experiment: try sending an ASCII art article criticial of Timmy
> Mayonaise via Dave Smith's bureau42 remailer and see if it shows up.
Although I know that, at this stage, you have become convinced that I am in
fact the AntiChrist (TM), I encourage such "experiments." The only people on
my blocklists are those who have expressly requested to be there.

dave






From ericm at lne.com  Sun Nov 30 14:36:06 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:36:06 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96.971130084225.2104A-100000@usr07.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <199711302208.OAA11727@slack.lne.com>



attila writes:
> On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > I was stopped by the storm troopers on the Stanford University campus for
> > this reason--"you fit the profile"--and asked to let them inspect my
> > briefcase and jacket pockets. I stood my ground and said "No."

[..] 

> > Of course, Stanford being private property, they escorted me off the campus.

[..]

> > (However, it was Stanford Sheriffs, representing the (alleged) city of
> > Stanford, CA, who did the stop-and-escort-off routine, so one wonders about
> > the lines being blurred between private and governmental functions.)
> > 
>     Stanford was in Palo Alto the last time I looked... is the "City of
>     Stanford" a new chartered entity inside Palo Alto? to permit "real"
>     law enforcement, not just hired guns?

Stanford used to be a real town.  Palo Alto annexed a number of
surrounding smaller towns in the 50s.  The town of Mayfield is one; it
consisted of the area just south and east of Stanford, where California
street is now.

Of course if you follow private property rights to their full extent,
its within Stanford's rights to escort Tim off the premises for whatever
reason they want, including simply not liking the way he looks ("fitting
the profile").  However Stanford isn't a purely private institution since
they take government money for research contracts and the like.


>     maybe Chelsea has them all nervous. 

Sure.  And having something bad happen to her while at Stanford will
get the university pilloried in the press; while harassing a few
people who "fit the profile" will probably get them kudos or at
the worst some rants in non-mainstream press.  It's not the fault of
Stanford's rulers-- they're just responding to what we as a soceity
tell them that we want: safety over freedom.



-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Nov 30 15:12:02 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:12:02 +0800
Subject: Minsky skeptical of privacy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971130230635.0075c5dc@pop.pipeline.com>



Monty Cantsin wrote:

>Incidentally, does anybody know what percentage of the research
>funding Marvin Minsky has used in his career was directly or
>indirectly related to the defense establishment?
>
>The interesting thing about the privacy "debate" is that there is an
>exceptionally high correlation between opposition to privacy and the
>consumption of public money.

Monty's customary reasonableness goes bizarro with these statements.

In that direct or indirect defense funding implicates just about every
US citizen, even world denizen, not holed up in a treetop for the last 
half century of national security octopussing.

This is not to say that that's the way it should be, just that defense
funding has been the deep pocket for nearly every commonweal
at least since WW II. 

And the same for the future appears to hold true as every federal
state and local government eagerly calibrate their demands for 
urgent aid according to national and economic security guidelines -- 
dual use brought into the open as heretofore hidden by duplicity.

Under national security programs DoD has funded through its 
pervasive tentacles scientists and mathematicians, libertarians 
and socialists, elite and trailer trash, Wall Street and underworld, 
on and on. Not a chance of stopping it any time soon.

It is doubtful that any other more bountiful and widespread source of 
condoned bribery has ever existed, and it shows no sign of
slackening, in the US or elsewhere, whether democracies, oligarchies, 
communist, or offshore outlaw, even allowing for the burgeoning private
armies, cops, gun faith forces, each loading up with new and "surplus"
arms.

Curiously, when the details of how it all works is pointed out, no one
seems to be bothered by it, except to comlain that others are getting
too much, to wheelle more leads on how to leverage more for their 
affinity gang, and, to conceal sly avarice, to blame the competition
for cheating better.

So, Monty, for comparing to Minsky's well-known federal work at MIT, 
as with many here, how about demonstrating the correlation of your 
work with inescapable defense funding complicity?







From cvhd at indyweb.net  Sun Nov 30 16:08:10 1997
From: cvhd at indyweb.net (cvhd at indyweb.net)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:08:10 +0800
Subject: RC5-56 and 2048 Bit Keys
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971130185929.00859920@indyweb.net>



With the RC5-56 having been busted, I was wondering what the going
estimated crack time was for a 2048 bit RC5 key like the one available with
SecureWIN?
TIA






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 30 16:34:48 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:34:48 +0800
Subject: New free speech oriented civil rights site
In-Reply-To: <199711301603.RAA23723@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <eea1ge10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> Anonymous <nobody at REPLAY.COM> wrote:
> >Racist comments by supposedly respected list members are harmful and
> >must be countered in order to show that these views do not reflect
> >the feelings of most cypherpunks.
>
> If we do our job properly, the cypherpunk public image won't
> matter. ;-)

I'm the official cypherpunks spokesman and I think japs are ful of shit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Sun Nov 30 16:35:21 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:35:21 +0800
Subject: launch memes
Message-ID: <199712010026.BAA29670@xs1.xs4all.nl>




-------

Cypherpunks reject politics.  They know that it is unnecessary,
counter-productive, and wrong.

Terrorism and violent confrontation are the ultimate form of
politics.

-------

Cypherpunks don't fixate on their enemies, real or imagined.
Reactionary Christians do.  Reactionary Muslims do.  Wacko
leftists do.  Wacko rightists do.  In fact, probably every
penny-ante cult and fringe political movement does.  Perhaps
it makes it easier to avoid doubt by thinking and feeling
about your enemies (real or imagined) in order to keep from
thinking about your self.

But cypherpunks don't fixate on their enemies.  They have more
important things to worry about.

-------

Cypherpunks think strategically.  Cypherpunks act strategically.

-------






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 30 16:46:18 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:46:18 +0800
Subject: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971130195826.3548B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130161144.006c9bc8@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:36 AM 11/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>(I was chatting with a guy yesterday about a Steyr SSG sniper rifle I've
>had my eyes on. With a Kahles scope and match grade ammo, it's been shown
>to produce 9-inch groups at 1000 yards...just the thing for reaching out
>and touching someone. It turned out, after we'd talked for a while that
>he's with the SWAT team for one of the local major counties. He
understands
>full well that many of those he may be called to go up against are
>equipping themselves with the most advanced countersniping weaponry
>available to anyone. )

What round does this thing fire?  .223 Rem, .270 Win, .30-06, or .22LR
(Just kidding!)?
BTW, what kind of groups can I expect to get from a MAK-90?

>As Lucky and others have noted, if the sentence for drug- or gun-dealing
is
>death, as it is in more and more countries (when bribery fails, of
course),
>then law enforcement will increasingly lead to Waco-type
>standoffs...military firefights.

Sounds like "If I'm dead anyway, I might as well take as many as I can with
me."  God help us if we ever come to that, because it would be ugly.

>If this be war, unleash the dogs of war, or make the most of it, or
however
>that line goes.

"If this be treason, let us make the most of it." -- Patrick Henry
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIIAvsJF0kXqpw3MEQK79gCfTU9TNUYu8W7C7/xD6+9UhqP4MBAAoNPY
KN7+qZhrSmMN70B1GrYa8YGk
=32aR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 30 16:46:31 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:46:31 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0a6b4e40d3f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 09:03 AM 11/30/97 +0000, attila wrote:
>    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....

Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIH8z8JF0kXqpw3MEQIOQgCgvvlSB56mWMZ1b7XYb62koKYe+AUAoP3V
8w7qR6NDBnBEG0H7Uqs/RcEE
=l3XG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Nov 30 16:55:49 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:55:49 +0800
Subject: Defense of the Homeland
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971201005450.00738e58@pop.pipeline.com>



The National Defense Panel is to release its study tomorrow,
"Defense of the Homeland," which recommends that Defense 
focus on domestic protection from weapons of mass destruction:

   http://jya.com/ndp-wmd.htm

In line with this, and Tim's NBC prognostications, the Department
of Health and Human Services Office of Emergency Prepareness
has a new Web site which describes its domestic counter terrorism 
program:

   http://www.oep_ndms.dhhs.gov/oep/terrorism/terrorism.html

These tidbits derive from the new list "Terrorism-L," which offers
terrifying scenarios for apocalypse by friend and foe and voodoo 
doll, and survivalist tips for first responders: "There's nothing we
could do."

To subscribe, send E-mail to listserv at mediccom.org with the 
following text in the message body: SUBSCRIBE terrorism







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 30 17:00:58 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:00:58 +0800
Subject: Death Penalty Expanded
Message-ID: <199712010056.BAA26873@basement.replay.com>



Lucky Green wrote:
>On a completely unrelated note, is there some interest in starting up
>a "Cypherpunks Nuclear Physics Study Group"? I recently finished
>reading "The Curve of Binding Energy". Fascinating book.

How dare you inquire into the nature of physical reality!  Officer,
please arrest that man.  ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Death Penalty Expanded
To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol No. 1]
AF823675BFB992A1CD9CD2EEBC5CDAE4041E6F06
F45932C19F0C526DBE7297FF5D74417561086272
-203 203
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







From attila at hun.org  Sun Nov 30 17:01:14 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:01:14 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <19971201.004742.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971130:1554, in <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c at popd.netcruiser>, 
    Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk at ix.netcom.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>At 09:03 AM 11/30/97 +0000, attila wrote:
>>    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....

>Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...

    uuuhhh.  12" is not the length of a riot gun barrel...
             it's your swinging length.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNIIKXLR8UA6T6u61AQE7twH/QQeNg+ZjZkZoGe/q/3X6OgZYTT/wbDul
PkgKA/dhWcJhyRoQoY5dOwXhLywnnVyGeQNQaAASZlXjQ1wJ7B3z8g==
=LxxW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov 30 17:13:11 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:13:11 +0800
Subject: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <d2fb24d6e9a80e7f6a5f5c4146d2845f@anonymous.poster>



gburnore at netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> : Presently, cracker (and some other remailers) do not allow pasting in a
> : From: header. As I have stated before, the purpose of an anonymous
> : remailer is to be anonymous, so pasting in a From: seems contradictory.
> : However, as has been pointed out, a lot of people like to do it to avoid
> : sending through nymservers, or at least psuedo-identify themselves.
> : 
> : So, I propose a compromise: What if I enable pasting of From:, but if a
> : From: header is pasted in, a short disclaimer is added to the beginning of
> : the body of the message. Would that mess anyone up? I think this would be
> : sufficient to avoid most problems with "forging".
> 
> Not a good thing.  If you allow a valid address to be in the from line, the
> results (regardless of the inside of the message) will be UCE baiting.
> Posting a message to an mlm type group with someone elses' name in the from
> line.  The address cullers would not read the post to know the address was
> false.
> 
> A better comprimise would be to allow the From line to be altered but not to
> form a valid email address.   Like name <at> site <dot> com.
> 
> At least make sure it doesn't allow the from line to be modified to a name in
> your blocked list.

Maybe when other ISPs, like Netcom where Mr. Burnore is posting
from, impose similar restrictions it might make sense to implement
them at the remailers as well.  (Remailers might well be considered
the ISP of last resort for those who consider the risks of posting
controversial ideas from a traceable address to be an intolerable
risk.)  Remailer users should not be considered second class
citizens, nor have their capabilities (such as header pasting)
crippled to appease anyone who makes a demand.  Right now, Netcom
users can and do have the capability to put just about anything in
the From:  line (or other header lines) of their usenet posts.
Presumably if that capability were such an open invitation to
"forgery", Netcom would either have disabled it or Mr. Burnore would
have cancelled his Netcom account in protest.  Why single out the
remailers?

Andy Dustman's suggestions seem quite reasonable.  When something is
loaded with disclaimers that the identity of the author has not been
authenticated, then it's not "forgery" -- not anymore than when
celebrity impersonators on Saturday Night Live are engaging in
"fraud" for pretending to be President Clinton, etc.

If Gary Burnore is so concerned about "forgery", maybe he ought to
start using that PGP key he keeps advertising in his .sig to
actually sign his posts.  Unless he does, he's still vulnerable to
forgery from his fellow Netcom users who are still allowed to insert
arbitrary From:  lines in their Usenet posts.  Actually, forging a
post with Gary Burnore's name and address in the From:  line can be
much more convincingly (no disclaimers) done from a throwaway
Netcruiser account, and with less effort than learning the proper
protocol to do it through a remailer.

Munging of addresses is better left to the discretion of the poster.
Let those who perceive a need for this "capability" use it.  At
least one of the mail2news gateways implements that as an option for
those desiring it.  I'm in favor of leaving that choice with the
poster.

Mr. Burnore made a similar "forgery" complaint here several months
ago and was advised to PGP sign his posts and request source-level
blocking if he perceived forgery to be a problem.  He has evidently
not taken the trouble to implement the first suggestion and,
assuming he took the second suggestion, he's posted no evidence to
suggest that it's not been effective.






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 30 17:33:38 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:33:38 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <89D1ge20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk at ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 09:03 AM 11/30/97 +0000, attila wrote:
> >    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....
>
> Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...

Only 2 inches are required to reach the prostate.  Anything over that
is just windows dressing.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 30 17:38:21 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:38:21 +0800
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
Message-ID: <199712010131.CAA03134@basement.replay.com>



Thanks to everybody for their interesting contributions to the partial
signature problem.

Anonymous <anon at anon.efga.org> writes:
>A more general approach calculates the document hash in a line
>oriented way.  Normally we start at the top and work down through the
>document to get the hash, which is signed.  Instead, we would
>calculate a hash for each line of the document separately, and then
>combine them using a tree.

This approach looks like the best to me.  It's a bit cumbersome for
the person doing the quoting, but that's as it should be.

Brian B. Riley writes:
>  I haven't been follwing this thread that closely, but skimming mch
>of it and then rereading this whole post, I must concur that the
>context issue renders much of the discussion moot unless you can not
>only relate individual sub-blocks to the whole message it came from
>in the proper order ... it seems to me we are right back where we
>started, quoting referenced message(s) in entirety.
>
>  It occurrs to me that if an issue is important enough that the
>veracity and autheticity of a given passage is that critical,
>including entire messages is of trivial concern. Now it could be
>handled by the discussion participant quoting out of context and
>'footnoting' his quote with a message ID. The message corresponding
>to that ID has its entire text is signed and publicly stored and
>accessible. If it needs to be checked then go check it, if not take
>it on faith and read on.

It's easy to see why we would want other people to sign with
signatures which enable partial quoting, but it's less clear why we
would sign our own messages this way.

For instance, somebody might want to quote my private e-mail out of
context where I say "Yes, I'm real glad I got rid of that guy.  He was
really a pest."  But they might not want to quote the part of the
message where I say "Thanks for the latest shipment of plastic
explosives."  In order to authenticate their claim they have to reveal
the entire message.  If they must quote the entire message for
authentication, it will discourage tacky behavior such as relaying
private messages.

So, this is sort of a solution looking for an application.  It seems
like an interesting problem and I have a strong intuitive sense that a
use for it will present itself at some point.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol No. 1]
AF823675BFB992A1CD9CD2EEBC5CDAE4041E6F06
98C5FC8D9791145578E4A26E9EE86E1419E6194F
-9DD 9DD
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







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 30 17:51:05 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:51:05 +0800
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving and the Impending Murder of Usenet
In-Reply-To: <m3btz2xk7t.fsf@windlord.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <02B1ge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Russ Allbery <rra at stanford.edu> writes:
> > So why doesn't he? For the same reason I often eat out even though I'm a
> > pretty good cook - I know how to do it, but my time can be better spent
> > doing something creative. Re-coding exploits for well-known holes, for
> > which a dozen explots already exists, is not creative.
>
> Amen.

Russ hees and haws; just a couple of days ago he was whining how we shouldn't
publish exploits because users should be forced to write their own exploits.

> > Russ clearly believes in "security by obscurity", so heinvents bogus
> > arguments to waste everyone's time.
>
> Russ does?  There are some forms of "security via obscurity" that actually
> work or which have some benefit (hell, password systems are just security
> via obscurity at their core), but no, I don't believe in it as a general
> principle.

That's from the same bootlixcking Cabal lackey who was whining and begging
me not to release my cancelbot.

[rfc 1036 rewrite]
> > (The main purpose of the rewrite, by the way, is to incorporate some
> > "anti-spam" language, and to remove the embarassing prohibition against
> > forged cancels.)
>
> Actually, the main purpose looks more to be to roll in a bunch of headers
> that had been in informal use, clarify a bunch of the language, resolve
> differences between the mail and news formats, and so forth.  Brad's
> pushing hard for a variety of authentication measures, including an
> authenticated Path header, and X-Auth will likely be rolled in in some
> form.

Bullshit. I'm on the list, I see the traffic, and all the whining about
"spam" coming from the wannabe content censors.

> > One Good Thing that might come out of masive attacks is the switch to
> > IPv6.
>
> Maybe.  That'll be a really hard one to get going.

But it would actually make the net better in many ways.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Nov 30 17:57:51 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:57:51 +0800
Subject: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971130221445.1837A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <JiD1ge17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



"David E. Smith" <dave at bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> > To verify that Dave Smith filters the contents he doesn't like (and assumes
> > full responsibility for the content he does pass through), conduct this
> > simple experiment: try sending an ASCII art article criticial of Timmy
> > Mayonaise via Dave Smith's bureau42 remailer and see if it shows up.

> Although I know that, at this stage, you have become convinced that I am in
> fact the AntiChrist (TM), I encourage such "experiments." The only people on
> my blocklists are those who have expressly requested to be there.

I've tried it and it doesn't go through, proving again that David Smith
is a pathological liar, a content censor, and a bootlicking BATF lackey.

Lock and load.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov 30 18:07:48 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:07:48 +0800
Subject: Freemen and Serfs
Message-ID: <199712010155.CAA05612@basement.replay.com>



This model of "sheeple" doomed to slavery while cypherpunks comfortably
live independent of the state is even less plausible than the original
idea of crypto anarchy.  It appeals to our elitist instincts and makes
us feel comfortably superior, but it has little connection to reality.

This idea overlooks the "fax effect", where the value of a technology
rises in proportion to the number of people who use it.  Cypherpunks will
have to set up a virtual Galt's Gulch, trading only with themselves,
and unlike in Rand's fantasy the limitations of such an economy will
soon be apparent.  Early cypherpunk experiments like "Magic Money"
showed how pointless a virtual cypherpunk bank would be.

Cypherpunk technologies create a protected boundary within which
transactions can be conducted free of third party surveillance and
tampering.  Only by extending this secure boundary to include the
masses will there be enough value generated within the secure region
to be worthwhile.  Cypherpunks who can only trade and work for each
other will not be able to generate sufficient economic growth to survive.

In an increasingly interdependent world economy, the only hope
for cypherpunk technologies to succeed is to extend them as far as
possible throughout society.  This includes reaching out to foreigners
and minorities, to the dismay of some cypherpunks.  We must oppose the
elitism and racism which some list members cling to, replacing it with
inclusion and openness to members of other cultures.  Making fun of
foreign accents and calling for the deaths of innocents does not move
us toward our goals.






From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov 30 19:10:11 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:10:11 +0800
Subject: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <199712010155.CAA05612@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0a7c86dc8d5@[207.167.93.63]>



At 6:55 PM -0700 11/30/97, Anonymous wrote:
>This model of "sheeple" doomed to slavery while cypherpunks comfortably
>live independent of the state is even less plausible than the original
>idea of crypto anarchy.  It appeals to our elitist instincts and makes
>us feel comfortably superior, but it has little connection to reality.
>
>This idea overlooks the "fax effect", where the value of a technology
>rises in proportion to the number of people who use it.  Cypherpunks will
>have to set up a virtual Galt's Gulch, trading only with themselves,
>and unlike in Rand's fantasy the limitations of such an economy will
>soon be apparent.  Early cypherpunk experiments like "Magic Money"
>showed how pointless a virtual cypherpunk bank would be.

Nope. I haven't claimed anything about an elite group trading amongst
themselves.

Rather, those who use the technology will make more money, and save more of
it, and will then be able to hire out those who failed to, and to buy stuff
made by them.

We've been seeing this for a long time. Not a new concept. For example,
those of us who used our skills and investment inclinations to make a lot
of money are not condemned to "trading only with ourselves." We routinely
trade with others.

We just have a lot more money. (And this applies to the many list members
now working in high tech, obviously.)

Strong crypto will just heighten this effect still further.

>Cypherpunk technologies create a protected boundary within which
>transactions can be conducted free of third party surveillance and
>tampering.  Only by extending this secure boundary to include the
>masses will there be enough value generated within the secure region
>to be worthwhile.  Cypherpunks who can only trade and work for each
>other will not be able to generate sufficient economic growth to survive.

See above. Whomever you are, you have a poor understanding of economics.


>In an increasingly interdependent world economy, the only hope
>for cypherpunk technologies to succeed is to extend them as far as
>possible throughout society.  This includes reaching out to foreigners
>and minorities, to the dismay of some cypherpunks.  We must oppose the

"Foreigners"? Ted Turner would have you fired for your xenophobia.

As for "reaching out to minorities," I am a minority member myself. In
fact, my ancestors came from Africa.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sun Nov 30 19:19:18 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:19:18 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971201041411.4210A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> 
> Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...
Not by much. [I prefer the 14'' HK "Entry" model].

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From attila at hun.org  Sun Nov 30 19:53:06 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:53:06 +0800
Subject: John Brown
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b08ffa004f2a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971201.032213.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    As to Monty and the 3 name criminals association alleged below:
    
        Attila The Hun
        Hun, Attila
    
    looks like two names to me, the "T." being nothing more than
    a conjunction, just like Tess d'Uberville means Tess of 
    Uberville.
    
    Incidently, John Brown was the older brother of my
    great-great-grandmother.  
    
    I grew up almost across the street from the Brown
    farm/homestead in Hudson OH; his father, Owen Brown, was a
    regent at Western Reserve University, which was in Hudson at
    that time, and a director of Oberlin College.  The village
    has an Owen Brown St, but no John Brown St.  However, the
    homestead in Hudson, and the half dozen places in the area
    he lived at various times are all listed historical
    monuments.
    
    In the 50s at Western Reserve Academy in Hudson, we were
    taught the version of events presented by anonymous.
    
    interesting that our legal system permits the about to be
    condemned the right to speak his mind before the judge; in a
    clear case where failure would have more impact than
    success, failure prevailed and the intent was consummated
    with the "martyrdom" of John Brown.
    
    the real rewriting of history began in the mid-60s.
    professors, who write books, live on grants which are passed
    out by two groups:  business and government.  books tend to
    support the views of the grantees, and their view of how
    history should be written, rewritten, denied, or "directed."

on or about 971112:1731, in
<v03102800b08ffa004f2a@[207.167.93.63]>, 
    Tim May <tcmay at got.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>At 5:54 PM -0700 11/12/97, Anonymous wrote:

>>lived,' Henry David Thoreau observed in a eulogy in Boston.  `These
>...
>>throughout the North.  Louisa May Alcott, William Dean Howells, Herman
>>Melville, John Greenleaf Whittier, and Walt Whitman were among the
>...
>>congregations sang Julia Ward Howe's new words to the song: `As He
>...
>>Carolina, while William Lloyd Garrison surveyed the cheering


>More examples of "three name criminals," eh Monty?

>And John Brown, the one they hanged, only had two names....


>(Not an important issue, but this meme that "most persons with three names
>reported are criminals" is simply false.)

>--Tim May

>The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNIIx17R8UA6T6u61AQFcrQIAlA/4G2cb+YX4VJ5ZmC0/DmLf1okrKFDs
BilNTL4Wq0vFJlBX8I/aVc00KS9hbKb4q8QsfszRuCAlCKCFUJcC0Q==
=gXir
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 30 20:16:05 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:16:05 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96.971130084225.2104A-100000@usr07.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130200943.0073b3f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>




>>     Stanford was in Palo Alto the last time I looked... is the "City of
>>     Stanford" a new chartered entity inside Palo Alto? to permit "real"
>>     law enforcement, not just hired guns?

At 02:08 PM 11/30/1997 -0800, Eric Murray wrote:
>Stanford used to be a real town.  Palo Alto annexed a number of
>surrounding smaller towns in the 50s.  The town of Mayfield is one; it
>consisted of the area just south and east of Stanford, where California
>street is now.

I'd been under the impression that Palo Alto didn't _want_ to have
the campus within its boundaries - too much risk of students voting
in city elections while living in the dorms.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov 30 20:18:21 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:18:21 +0800
Subject: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <3eed4fe6512e0a478e3afd83b7b3d240@anonymous.poster>



no at no.spam (�Old Crab�) wrote:

> >Andy Dustman wrote on Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:03:39 -0500:
> >
> >>So, I propose a compromise: What if I enable pasting of From:, but if a
> >>From: header is pasted in, a short disclaimer is added to the beginning of
> >>the body of the message. Would that mess anyone up? I think this would be
> >>sufficient to avoid most problems with "forging".
> >
> >Can't put the disclaimer in a Comments: header?
> 
> Why make a test ???
> Put the disclaimer *every_time*.
> People who want to authenticate their nym account have the thing
> signed by the nym-server...
> That if you consider that it is not *obvious* to everybody
> that the "From:" from a remailer might be fake...
> That BTW *any* "From:", from remailer or from anywhere;
> might be fake...
> Only PGP or such allows to be easily sure of the sender.....

That's absolutely correct.  That disclaimer should be implicit with
EVERY post.  Attaching it to anonymous posts, while technically
correct, gives the false implication that posts without such
disclaimers should be presumed to be genuine.  That's a dangerous
assumption.

Anyone who wants to post an article with a phony From: address can
do it far easier with a throwaway ISP account and news posting
software that can be configured with an arbitrary From: address
than going to the trouble of doing it through a remailer.

Could it be that the enemies of privacy and freedom, if they can't
ban anonymous posting altogether (at least not right now), would
like to make sure that anonymous posts are stigmatized with the
cyber equivalent of a yellow star?  If some control freaks are to be
believed, the only people who post anonymously are either "abusers",
"cowards", or otherwise have sinister motives for not promiscuously
broadcasting their names and addresses worldwide with every post.

My theory is that what really galls them is that the precursor to
the U.S. Constitution which guarantees freedom of speech (including
anonymous speech) was the ANONYMOUSLY PUBLISHED "Federalist Papers",
and they want to make sure it doesn't happen again. <g>

> That *everybody* knows that should be controlled
> when one getting a Usenet licence� :-))

Don't give the Usenet control freaks any ideas!  <g>






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov 30 20:20:07 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:20:07 +0800
Subject: Digital Signatures
Message-ID: <fbbcab88ba06fee2a7cfdfe70620c8e5@anon.efga.org>



Monty Cantsin writes:

> You can't see it up here, but this is a signed message using a
> protocol which is modestly titled "Cantsin Protocol No. 1".
> Suggestions for improvement are most welcome.

A very interesting idea!  Please consider the following suggestions if
you like, or feel free to ignore them.

One problem with signatures which have no indication at the top is that
two passes over the data are necessary: the first to scan and find the
start-of-signature indicator, and another to go back and calculate the
hash.  Signatures such as S/MIME and PGP have enough information at the
top of the signed message to allow one pass processing.

> The first line is "16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol
> No. 1]".  The hexadecimal number was chosen randomly and is the
> indicator that this is a Cantsin Protocol No. 1 signature.  The number
> was chosen randomly and it is somewhat unlikely that anybody else will
> accidently choose it.

You might want to think about what happens if the document itself contains
(maliciously, or perhaps because it is talking about your signatures)
the string in question (as yours does and this one does as well).  This
could throw off an automated signature checker.

> The second line in the signature is an SHA1 hash of the public key.
> The hash is computed on the concatenation of the hexadecimal ASCII
> forms of p, g, and y respectively.  There should be no leading zeros.
> (Remember to leave off the newline!)

Presumably you could use the key hash to look up the key to use for
verifying the message.  This has a mild denial of service attack.  Someone
else could create a key with different boundaries between p, g, and y but
which would create the same string as this concatenation, and therefore the
same hash.  If you left the "p: ", "g: ", and "y: " in place it would
prevent this.  PGP's key fingerprints have had the same problem.

> The fourth line contains an offset and a length to specify the area of
> the text which is signed.  The offset is relative to the signature
> itself.  That is, the first character of the Cantsin Protocol No. 1
> code is at position 0.  As signatures are usually appended, the offset
> will usually be the additive inverse of the length.

It is intriguing that this can be used to sign a subset of the text.
Presumably there could be multiple signature blocks each of which signed
different subsets, possibly with different keys.  One problem is that it is
not obvious to the human reader what part of the text is signed.  A nice
effect with PGP and S/MIME signatures is that even readers who don't have
the tools can have some slight confidence in signatures, because other
readers will often report it when signatures don't verify.  With a
signature that only covers a portion of the text, people might assume that
if there are no reports of failure, more of the text is signed than is the
case.  This is not a technical problem but is a social phenomenon which may
not interact well with this signature format.

You need to specify a canonical line ending format.  Based on the count
values in your document, it appears that you are counting line terminators
as being one character long.  Your count value of 1CB9 corresponds to
decimal 7353, there are exactly 7353 characters from the first character
of your message body to the beginning of your signature magic number, if
line ends are one character.

The specific characters for line endings need to be specified as well
for the hash to be calculated consistently.  Your hash appears to be
calculated with LF as the line ending (although the hash program is
broken, see below).  Probably CR/LF would be preferable for the line
endings as that is a widely used internet standard as well as being
common on windows.

> You also need to be able to compute SHA1 hashes.  I've been using
> something called "sha1file" which, I believe, originated at Adam
> Back's web site.

That program has a bug.  The routine SHA1_update in the file sha1.c
is missing a line:

   while ( ctx->mlen == 64 )
   {
      convert_to_bigendian( (word32*)ctx->M, 64 );
      SHA1_transform( ctx );
      use = min( 64, data_len );
      memcpy( ctx->M, data, use );
      ctx->mlen = use;
      data_len -= use;
***   data += use;  ***  MISSING  ***
   }

Correcting this will make your hashes be correct.

> El Gamal is simple enough that the signature on this message can be
> checked using standard Unix tools such as dc version 1.1.  Let's say M
> is the SHA1 hash of the message.  It is checked by verifying the truth
> of this equation: (y^a * a^b) mod p = g^M mod p.

El Gamal is a rather lengthy signature, although the verification equation
is relatively simple.  DSS has a shorter signature.  If you report not
r,s, but rather r,w where w is the inverse of s mod q, then the
verification is: r = g^(M*w) * y^(r*w) mod p mod q.  It's not really
much more complicated.

There are some subtleties to choosing El Gamal keys, but with the 2048
bit values you have chosen you are pretty safe.  You want to make sure
that the generator g doesn't generate a small subgroup; to do this you
need to look at the factors of p-1.  Your p-1 has several small prime
factors: 0x2^3, 0x3, 0x6b, 0x16f, 0x1f79b, 0x3533a1eb3.  Beyond that
is a 1978 bit composite which I can't factor.  Chances are very high
that a random g will generate a group of size which is a multiple of a
large prime factor of this large composite value, so it is strong,
although not quite 2048 bits strong.

Also, you can't really justify using 2048 bit keys when your hash is
only 160 bits.  The hash becomes the weak link for keys beyond about
1024 bits, and unless you use a stronger hash your key strength is
misleading.  This is why DSS is only specified up to 1024 bits.

-- A hasher to be named later --






From attila at hun.org  Sun Nov 30 20:23:19 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:23:19 +0800
Subject: November raids? [was Re: Gun Control brings on a New Arms Race]
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b08c532f2fec@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971201.040708.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971110:1309, in <v03102803b08c532f2fec@[207.167.93.63]>, 
    Tim May <tcmay at got.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>Why can't the gun grabbers realize that Americans will not give up their guns,
>and that every wave of efforts to try to grab them just stimulates the market
>even more?

>Interesting times. The rumored November raids could be very interesting.

>--Tim May

    yes, which november? this nov is gone, but I am still waiting 
    patiently for my share. maybe next year.

    actually, I think I'll hide under the bed and hope the dogs
    cant find me. any man defending himself from under his bed 
    cant be guilty of murder, can he?

    he who dies with the most notches wins?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNII6MrR8UA6T6u61AQG57wH7BgytcHkKmbccEEOTrgzsQCYYNhhxi1iQ
BvCe4Fm2ySFOSsyoIjp4zN/efi/cOTVGpQ1a6YsoTXqEO7g74GZSfQ==
=zWkA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 30 20:23:29 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:23:29 +0800
Subject: launch memes
In-Reply-To: <199712010026.BAA29670@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130200117.0075879c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 01:26 AM 12/01/1997 +0100, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
>Cypherpunks reject politics.  They know that it is unnecessary,
>counter-productive, and wrong.
..
>But cypherpunks don't fixate on their enemies.  They have more
>important things to worry about.
>-------
>
>Cypherpunks think strategically.  Cypherpunks act strategically.

But understanding the politics and the enemies do give you 
some idea of what kinds of strategies you need to develop...
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 30 20:38:13 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:38:13 +0800
Subject: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130202253.007595d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>> : So, I propose a compromise: What if I enable pasting of From:,
>> : but if a From: header is pasted in, a short disclaimer is a
>> : added to the beginning of the body of the message.
>> : Would that mess anyone up? I think this would be
>> : sufficient to avoid most problems with "forging".

News and email are two separate cases.  For news, there's almost no reason
for a poster who wants his real name and address in a message to use
an anonymous remailer; maybe something like posting with your Juno email
on the message rather than your work email.  But you can put your
real email address in the message body if you want to do that,
so not having that feature in a remailer is no restriction on 
the legitimate user.  There are lots of reasons to forge someone else's name :-)
So if the remailers don't support From: pasting, it's no loss.
Similarly, for Reply-To: and Sender: and Path: and Received:
and maybe a few other occasionally-forged header fields.

Adding a disclaimer to the beginning of the message is no problem;
adding it to the headers is useless, since almost nobody reads them,
especially the kind of shoot-from-the-hip flamers you want to avoid.

For email, perhaps you don't want the address to be visible during
the first few hops in an encrypted remailer path, but you do still 
want one of your addresses to be there for the recipient.
Again, you can put it in the message body yourself.
There's a little less risk of pasting in headers on mail to individuals,
but forged mail to mailing lists and mail2news relays is still a problem,
and you definitely can't expect remailers to recognize mailing lists.
There are also minor problems, like forging the From: address on mail
to president at whitehouse.gov, which are better avoided this way
even if you do also add disclaimers.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From alan at clueserver.org  Sun Nov 30 20:40:08 1997
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:40:08 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199712010530.VAA04238@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 04:15 AM 12/1/97 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
>> 
>> Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...
>Not by much. [I prefer the 14'' HK "Entry" model].

I always have prefered the 1 oz copper slugs.  Shot dispersal is tighter if
you have only one shot.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov 30 20:45:28 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:45:28 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Physics Study Group
Message-ID: <8f07ca0537b17a179e2c7c496793b5f2@anon.efga.org>



Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to>:

> On a completely unrelated note, is there some interest in starting up a
> "Cypherpunks Nuclear Physics Study Group"? I recently finished reading
> "The Curve of Binding Energy". Fascinating book.

Is this really unrelated or does it represent growing ambition
by the cypherpunks shooting club ?  Will you be asking for anonymous
donations of SNM ?

I could be interested, but not in the manner of the above 2 sentences.

A Nym To Be Generated Later






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov 30 21:03:05 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:03:05 +0800
Subject: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <35071a4de8a2c6f6cf77914c7747760d@anonymous.poster>



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:

> > From: Andy Dustman <andy at neptune.chem.uga.edu>
> > Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server
> > Subject: Pasting in From:
> > Date: Sunday, November 30, 1997 8:03 PM
> 
> [ ... ]
>  
> > So, I propose a compromise: What if I enable pasting of From:, but if a
> > From: header is pasted in, a short disclaimer is added to the beginning
> of
> > the body of the message. Would that mess anyone up? I think this would be
> > sufficient to avoid most problems with "forging".
> 
> What are the advantages of pasting a From: above pasting a Reply-To: ?

For one thing, many newsreaders list messages by From:  and Subject:
line.  By putting in a distinctive From: line, your posts will be
identifiable without readers having to download and read each message
body.

By pasting in a From: header, an anonymous poster can thus make his
posts recognizeable.  Pasting in a Reply-To doesn't accomplish the
same thing.  In essence, pasting enables one to adopt a
non-replyable pseudonym.  Why burden the 'nym servers if the poster
doesn't want e-mail replies to his posts?

The alternative suggestion of posting from a replyable 'nym address
does not really address the issue.  If one wants to post with a
From: address of "santaclaus at northpole.gov", why should a remailer
make that any more difficult than doing it from a non-anonymous ISP?
(If "jolly ol' St. Nick" is worried about his e-mail address being
forged, he can always request source blocking.)






From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Nov 30 21:23:34 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:23:34 +0800
Subject: Hubba hubba
Message-ID: <fYewN1+es2eCaMkhUb8aZw==@bureau42.ml.org>



I'm siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing'in in the raaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn... The yellow raiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin from Vulis' pisssssssssssssssssssss...






From declan at well.com  Sun Nov 30 21:23:48 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:23:48 +0800
Subject: "Faulty Filters" report; anti-rating free speech alliance
Message-ID: <v03007806b0a7f42e9fab@[204.254.22.168]>



[From December 1 EPIC Alert --Declan]


=======================================================================
[2] EPIC Report Slams Internet Content Filters
=======================================================================

EPIC today released a report that finds that "family-friendly" search
engines typically block access to 99 percent of the material on the
Internet that would be appropriate for young people.  The report was
released just prior to a White House summit that will examine the use of
content filters and rating systems for the Internet.

EPIC's study was based on a side-by-side comparison of an unfiltered
Internet search engine (AtltaVista) with a filtered search engine.
According to Net Shepherd, Inc., its Family Search retrieval service
screens out material that is "inappropriate and/or objectionable for
average user families."  EPIC tested both search engines using such
search phrases as the "American Red Cross," the "National Aquarium," and
"Thomas Edison."  The study found that the filtered search engine
typically blocked access to 99 percent of the documents containing those
phrases when compared with results returned by AltaVista.

The EPIC report, "Faulty Filters," includes a survey of 100 search
phrases in four categories -- schools; charitable and political
organizations; educational and artistic groups; and concepts that might
be of interest to young people.

Marc Rotenberg, Director of EPIC, said, "We found that as information on
popular topics became more widely available on the Internet, the
filtered search engine was likely to block an even higher percentage.
We further found that the search engine did not seem to restrict
sensitive topics for young people any more than it restricted matters of
general interest.  Even with the very severe blocking criteria employed,
we noted that some material which parents might consider to be
objectionable was still provided by the software."

The report was released at a press conference held at the National Press
Club.  EPIC said that it was joining with several other organizations to
establish the Internet Free Expression Alliance (IFEA) to address the
free speech implications of Internet rating and filtering proposals (see
item below).

The text of the "Faulty Filters" Report is available at:

     http://www2.epic.org/reports/filter_report.html

=======================================================================
[2] Groups Establish Internet Free Expression Alliance
=======================================================================

EPIC today announced that it is joining with 20 other organizations to
establish the Internet Free Expression Alliance (IFEA).  The new
coalition will address the free speech implications of Internet rating
and filtering proposals and promote the open exchange of information on
the Internet.

The formation of IFEA comes one day before the opening of an
Administration-sponsored summit on Internet issues.  President Clinton
is on record as supporting the widespread use of content ratings and
filtering techniques to create a "family-friendly Internet."  At an
earlier summit meeting last July, the President said that it "must be
our objective" to ensure that the labeling of Internet content "will
become standard practice."

As detailed in the report EPIC released today, such rating and filtering
systems can block access to a vast amount of valuable information;
according to the EPIC report, 99 percent of all online material is
typically filtered out by a new "family-friendly" Internet search
engine. In a statement released at IFEA's inaugural press conference at
the National Press Club, EPIC Legal Counsel David Sobel said, "It is
troubling that the White House has so readily embraced an approach that
has the potential to destroy the Internet as an educational resource."

EPIC was a plaintiff in the historic ACLU v. Reno litigation, which led
to last summer's landmark Supreme Court decision striking down the
Communications Decency Act (CDA).  Many other organizations that joined
the CDA challenge are involved in the creation of IFEA.  Alliance
members include the American Civil Liberties Union, American Society of
Newspaper Editors, Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, the
Electronic Frontier Foundation, the National Coalition Against
Censorship, the National Writers Union and the Society of Professional
Journalists.

For information on IFEA can be found at:

     http://www.ifea.net


[...]







From pooh at efga.org  Sun Nov 30 21:26:41 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:26:41 +0800
Subject: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971201001413.03a6d40c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



It seems to me that the purpose of a remailer is to strip the headers,
including the FROM header, not to put in fake headers.  Until someone can
explain it to me, I'd consider the idea of adding a FROM header to
anonymous mail to be asinine.

Best I can tell, the only reasonable good purpose for this is to create a
persistent nym identity without a reply to capability.  Well, remailer
software cannot support everything I suppose. (Even if Cracker may
apparently support this)

I would think the best way to put in a persistent nym capability would be
to database the PGP key id's along with the persistent identity.  Then the
remailer could produce lines like

	From: "Monty Cantsin" <anon at anon.efga.org>

Persistent identities would be created by sending a signed PGP message that
includes both the PGP public key and the persistent identity.  Since the
identity server would not database email addresses, only PGP key id's, and
only work for signed messages, there should be no problem with people
worrying about the remailer being compromised.  This also keeps someone
from stealing another's reputation capital.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From attila at hun.org  Sun Nov 30 21:32:30 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:32:30 +0800
Subject: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0a7c86dc8d5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971201.052518.attila@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971130:1857, in <v03102809b0a7c86dc8d5@[207.167.93.63]>, 
    Tim May <tcmay at got.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>As for "reaching out to minorities," I am a minority member myself. In fact, my
>ancestors came from Africa.

>--Tim May

    when? 4.5 million years ago? like the rest of us if you believe that
    scenario.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNIJKhbR8UA6T6u61AQGoXAH/Tx8X8MHRXOiFBPmjB/mORSJAp6HoTZXl
Z7nRKI4gpjTms+fBSmLw+5IAB+rmSP/USGisQ1C/SUbyodrxb2lkyw==
=ViM2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 30 21:45:20 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:45:20 +0800
Subject: Big Brother Is Watching ATMs
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130213445.006ad57c@popd.netcruiser>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I just heard that a bank card company has just released a program for using
photos of the iris in people's eyes as a biometric ID to replace people's
PIN codes for ATM / credit cards.  What I found really interesting is how
they plan to implement it.  As people use the ATM, they are photographed. 
(Every ATM has a security camera.)  Over time, as people use the ATM, the
security camera images are composited to produce a high-quality image of
their irises, which is coded and placed in their account information.  Once
this is accomplished, when a card is inserted into the ATM and the security
camera gets an iris image that matches the account sufficiently closely,
the user can conduct transactions without entering the PIN code.  People
affected by this will merely receive a letter that under certain
circumstances, entering the PIN is no longer necessary, but this is not a
security problem.

This scenario may not be a security problem, but it certainly poses a
privacy problem.  Given the frequency that the average Joe Sixpack uses the
ATM, it is only a matter of time before the government mandates a
nationwide eyeprint ID database to catch ATM and credit card theives, money
launderers, tax cheats, and other undesirables.  Perhaps the eyeprint could
even replace or supplement the SSN as the unique taxpayer ID key for tax
and other purposes.  Of course, given the fact that ATMs have had cameras
from the start, this theoretical eyeprint database could already be under
construction.  How's that for paranoia?  >:-(

Of course, there are a few ways to beat this, such as mirror sunglasses,
(which would only be useful while alternative credentials to eyeprint ID
are still available) and contact lenses, (which would have to be carefully
oriented so that the same side of the lens was always up, or the fact that
you are wearing contacts and are therefore a Suspicious Person� would
become obvious to the system) and of course intraocular implants of various
types.  Of course if the implant's power-on LED gives your eyes a constant
Satanic red glow, you may be flagged as a Suspicious Person� anyway.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIJMc8JF0kXqpw3MEQJEiACdH+0zupstOe2EK3nO+xkF6nY4SOsAnAuO
d/cf2DBRj3tiSUHgBaQHOgq9
=LxX3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From david at amazing.com  Sun Nov 30 22:10:31 1997
From: david at amazing.com (David H Dennis)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:10:31 +0800
Subject: "Faulty Filters" report; anti-rating free speech alliance
In-Reply-To: <v03007806b0a7f42e9fab@[204.254.22.168]>
Message-ID: <199712010558.VAA25375@remarkable.amazing.com>



> EPIC's study was based on a side-by-side comparison of an unfiltered
> Internet search engine (AtltaVista) with a filtered search engine.
> According to Net Shepherd, Inc., its Family Search retrieval service
> screens out material that is "inappropriate and/or objectionable for
> average user families."  EPIC tested both search engines using such
> search phrases as the "American Red Cross," the "National Aquarium," and
> "Thomas Edison."  The study found that the filtered search engine
> typically blocked access to 99 percent of the documents containing those
> phrases when compared with results returned by AltaVista.

Okay, I had to try this one out for myself, and I had a perfect search
term, one I had used before with some success:  megayacht .  A megayacht
is a boat over roughly 100 feet in length, generally costing several
million dollars.  I remember dimly a fascination with things big and
powerful in my childhood, so I figured it would be an excellent search
term - especially since following a search for these terms produced
absolutely no offensive material whatsoever (*).  It turns out that,
for some reason, people who talk about megayachts don't seem frightfully
sex-mad (at least while talking about megayachts), and few could find
any offensive material in descriptions of super-rugged hatches, doors
and shore power converters.

Here's a typical page I found in AltaVista but not Net Shepherd:

(WARNING: If you find a charter rate of $ 85,000 plus a week offensive,
DO NOT under any circumstances click on the link!)

http://www.superyachts.com/bigeagle/index.htm

An admittedly cursory view of the results of the search from Net Shepherd
shows the reason for this little problem:  Each response was apparently
indiviually rated by Net Shepherd's staff.

Yikes.

Have they ever heard of sysiphus?  (And can I spell him?)

D

(*) I suppose some people would say that a megayacht is evidence of
obscene wealth.  In that case, though, Net Shephard should have censored
all occurances of the word, which it did not do.







From declan at well.com  Sun Nov 30 22:15:50 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:15:50 +0800
Subject: V Chips in PCs -- comments filed with the FCC
Message-ID: <v03007811b0a802c00e4d@[204.254.22.168]>



A bunch of other groups filed comments last week, generally opposing a
requirement for Vchips in computers, but the ACLU's is the only one I have
in electronic form. An excerpt:

	Any FCC efforts to restrict content online, directly or
	indirectly, through a forced rating scheme would violate
	the First Amendment.  It would also have the effect of
	turning what the Supreme Court call the most
	participatory medium into a bland and homogenized medium
	that provides access to only self-rated or censored
	speech.

More info:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1528,00.html

-Declan

================

Subject: Fwd: fcc comments v-chip
   Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:49:29 -0500 (EST)
  From:  PRIVACLU at aol.com
     To: declan at well.com


Before the
        FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
        Washington, DC
20554

________________________________
In the Matter of

          ET Docket No. 97-206
Technical Requirements to Enable Blocking of

Video Programming Based on Program
Ratings
_______________________________

        COMMENTS OF THE AMERICAN
CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
Introduction
        The American Civil Liberties Union
(ACLU) is a nonpartisan organization
of more than 250,000 members nationwide
dedicated to defending the
principles of liberty and equality embodied in
the Bill of Rights. For
nearly a century, the ACLU has sought to preserve
and strengthen the
First Amendment as a bulwark against all forms of
governmental
censorship.
        The ACLU has previously submitted extensive
comments to the Federal
Communications Commission (FCC) in opposition to
government-prescribed
ratings systems for television programming that single
out sex,
violence, or other controversial subjects on television because
we
believe they infringe the fundamental principles of free expression.
 We
adhere to our prior views. We respectfully submit these comments on
the
different issues raised by the FCC's proposal for emerging
technology
and urge the Commission to refrain from entering into the
censorship
business.
        In particular, the ACLU urges the Commission not to
expand the
application of the proposed rules to include any and all
equipment
capable of displaying or receiving video programming, including
personal
computers and Digital Television (DTV), Multi-point
Distribution
Systems, Direct Broadcasting Systems (DBS) and other
emerging
technologies. The ACLU believes that Congress has not directed the
FCC
to mandate the inclusion of the V-Chip in these emerging technologies.

Furthermore, such an expansive reading of the Telecommunications Act
would
run afoul of the First Amendment protections accorded to speech
on
interactive media, such as the Internet, as a result of the
landmark
Supreme Court decision Reno v. ACLU. 117 S.Ct. 2329 (1997).
Finally, we
urge the FCC to abstain from prohibiting distribution services
from
deleting or modifying ratings information from television programming
as
a violation of the First Amendment.

I. THE FCC IS NOT REQUIRED TO
MANDATE INCLUSION OF BLOCKING TECHNOLOGY
IN PERSONAL COMPUTERS CAPABLE OF
RECEIVING VIDEO PROGRAMMING UNDER THE
1996 TELECOMMUNICATIONS
ACT.

        Section 551(c) of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 ("the Act"),
the
Parental Choice in Television Programming, directs the FCC to
"require
in the case of an apparatus designed to receive television signals
...
that have a picture screen 13 inches or greater in size
(measured
diagonally), that such apparatus be equipped with a feature
designed to
enable viewers to block display of all programs with a
common
rating...". Section 551 (e)(2) requires the Commission to consult
with
the television manufacturing industry to find an effective date
for
inclusion of the V-chip in televisions.  In contrast, with regard
to
technologies like the Internet, Congress directed the FCC in
section
552(d)(4)(A) of the Act to determine the availability of
alternative
blocking technology that enables parents to block programming
based on
identifying programs without ratings.
        Although the language of
the Act addresses the need for traditional
television manufacturers to
comply with the provision at issue, the
Commission's current Notice of
Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) calls for
expansion of the Telecommunications Act
of 1996, to mandate inclusion of
blocking devices in all technology capable
of displaying broadcast video
programming, even in apparatus that is not
primarily designed for
television viewing.  Specifically, the NPRM includes
a requirement for
personal computer manufacturers to include V-chip
technology. Paragraph
22 of the NPRM, states in pertinent part:
"In
addition, personal computer systems, which are not traditionally
thought of
as television receivers, are already being sold with the
capability to view
television and other video programming. Section
551(c) of the
Telecommunications Act makes it clear that the program
blocking requirements
were intended to apply to any "apparatus designed
to receive signals" that
has a picture screen of 13 inches or larger.
Accordingly, we believe that
the program blocking requirements we are
proposing should apply to any
television receiver meeting the screen
size requirements, regardless of
whether it is designed to receive video
programming that is distributed only
through cable television systems,
MDS, DBS, or by some other distribution
system.  These requirements
would also apply to any computer that is sold
with TV receiver
capability and a monitor that has a viewable picture size
of 13 inches
or larger, as we currently do of closed captioning." (emphasis
added)

        The NPRM broadly states that the rules should apply to any
computer
"regardless of whether it is designed to receive video programming
that
is distributed only through cable television systems, [satellite], or
by
some other distribution system." Under the broadest interpretation
the
rules could be extended to cover any video programming viewed using
a
computer.  Despite this confusion, the FCC has not publicly
offered
clarification as to what types of personal computer technology
would
fall under the purview of the proposed rules.
        In addition, the
NPRM statement that Section 551 (c) of the Act
"makes it clear that program
blocking requirements were intended to
apply to any apparatus" capable of
receiving television signals, is
plainly contrary to the expressed view of
Congress  and a conclusion
with which the ACLU strongly disagrees.  Congress
instead suggested in
Section 551 (d) (4) et seq., that as new video
technology is developed,
the Commission determine the availability of less
restrictive and more
informative alternatives.  Thus, Congress did not
propose the mandatory
inclusion of V-chip technology, but directed the
Commission to determine
whether other features could be used to provide
greater user choice over
content.
        We believe that the rush to embrace the
V-chip for traditional
televisions has been more damaging to the development
of other user
friendly tools that do not require the state imposition of a
rating and
blocking system.  Previously submitted comments by the
television
manufacturing industry also make clear that the FCCs haste
in
establishing schedules for the inclusion of the V-chip in
televisions
may result in poorly adapted equipment that may quickly become
obsolete.
        The expansion of V-chip technology into the computer realm makes
even
less sense. Interactive media is subject to even more rapid change
than
television and that change increasingly allows for more user choice
and
control.

II. THE FCC MAY NOT REQUIRE COMPUTERS TO INCLUDE CENSORING
TECHNOLOGY IF
THEY ARE CAPABLE OF RECEIVING VIDEO PROGRAMMING VIA THE
INTERNET OR BY
OTHER MEANS:

        Currently, there are at least three ways to
view video programming on
personal computers.  The first model is where
video programming can be
viewed on "PC-TVs," computers that include built-in
television receivers
or have an added plug-in circuit board to provided
video reception
capability. Second, a personal computer user has her Web
browser
connected to an Internet Service Provider (ISP) with the
appropriate
enabling technology to permit a multimedia connection to the
Internet.
With this connection, a user who is on the Web can go to any
number of
sites to download or view video/audio objects. Until now, the slow
speed
of Internet dial-up connections has meant that it could take
several
minutes to view online video clips. However, with new high
speed
connections, large video files may be downloaded or viewable in a
matter
or seconds -- making it possible to view video programming online
in
real time, like television and radio. Webcasting offers access to a
much
greater number of speakers or content providers than
traditional
broadcasting.
        PC-TVs and webcasting have only recently
become available, with new
models and features being marketed forth daily.
Both offer a much
greater spectrum of data, including programming
information, than is
possible by traditional broadcasting and under the
current ratings
scheme.  The potential to offer greater information means
does not mean
the FCC should expand the reach of its content restriction
through the
V-chip.  Instead, these technologies could offer transmission of
program
reviews or other detailed information about individual
programs.
        The Commission may not mandate blocking technology for computers
with
Internet software that provides the ability to view real-time
video
programs online. Unlike television, the Internet provides
inexpensive,
user controlled access and not government regulated or licensed
access.
Video programming displayed online may include traditional
broadcast
programming, but also includes a variety of authors and producers
that
have never before had the ability to gain wide distribution.  Such
an
application of the proposed rules not only runs counter to
the
Telecommunications Act, but represents an assumption of authority by
the
government over content on the Internet that has already been
rejected
by the Supreme Court.
        In the landmark case Reno v. ACLU, the
Supreme Court overturned
provisions of the Federal Communication Decency Act
(CDA) and declared
that the Internet is entitled to the highest level of
free speech
protection. The Court explicitly analogized the Internet to
the
traditional print media, saying that unlike broadcast media, which
has
been traditionally considered a more intrusive means of speech that
is
available to a fewer number of speakers, the virtually unlimited
access
and potential for speech means that the government requires a
compelling
reason to restrict lawfully protected speech.
        As the lead
attorneys and plaintiffs in the case, the ACLU successfully
argued that the
provisions of the CDA that would have made it a crime to
communicate
anything "indecent" online  violated the First Amendment.
The Court
rejected the CDA because it was an overbroad means of
addressing the
government's asserted interest in protecting minors from
inappropriate
material -- the very same reason offered today by the
Commission and
Congress in enacting V-Chip regulations.
        Moreover, the Court explicitly
rejected the notion that the government
has the authority to regulate
constitutionally protected speech online.
The Court stated, "the growth of
the Internet has been and continues to
be phenomenal.  As a matter of
constitutional tradition, in the absence
of evidence to the contrary, we
presume that governmental regulation of
the content of speech is more likely
to interfere with the free exchange
of ideas than to encourage it. The
interest in encouraging freedom of
expression in a democratic society
outweighs any theoretical but
unproven benefit of censorship." Reno v. ACLU,
117 S.Ct. 2329, -- ,
(1997).
        Although the ACLU believes that the same
First Amendment values apply
to each media,  the Court has repeatedly stated
that any government
regulation of broadcast television is justifiable only
because of the
intrusiveness of television coupled with the scarcity of
the
broadcasting transmission spectrum.   As the high court stated in
Reno
v. ACLU, neither of those rationale applies to the Internet.
        Any FCC
efforts to restrict content online, directly or indirectly,
through a forced
rating scheme would violate the First Amendment.  It
would also have the
effect of turning what the Supreme Court call the
most participatory medium
into a bland and homogenized medium that
provides access to only self-rated
or censored speech.

IV. THE FCC MAY NOT PROHIBIT OPERATORS THAT
DISTRIBUTE VIDEO PROGRAMMING
FROM DELETING OR MODIFYING PROGRAM RATINGS
CARRIED ON LINE 21 OF VBI.

        The NPRM states that the FCC proposes to amend
its rules to ensure that
ratings information is not deleted or modified
before transmission by
distributors.  Put plain, this means that the FCC is
selecting which of
the "speakers" -- from the programs writers, to its
producers, network
and local stations has the power to set a rating and
requiring all the
other speakers to agree with the given rating.  But by
removing the
power for any of these parties to modify ratings, the
government also
removes any flexibility from its proposed scheme -- it is
deciding that
national broadcasters make that decision, for all of their
writers,
producers, directors, affiliates and stations.   There is no room
for
disagreement and there is no choice but for distributors to agree
with
the designation.  Ratings must, by definition be national.  Leaving
one
that might appropriate in Mississippi but that is not in New York.

        Furthermore, there are serious First Amendment problems with
compelling
all program distributors from carrying ratings that they
find
objectionable or that they disagree with are critical.
Government
required ratings are a form of "forced speech" and diminish
any
discretion of programming distributors in determining the relevance
or
appropriateness of the proposed program rating.   That is,
mandating
labels compels private individuals and companies to say things
about
their creative offerings that they have no wish to say and with
which
they may disagree.  The Supreme Court has made clear that such
compelled
speech is as much a violation of First Amendment rights as
enforced
silence.  See, e.g., Riley v. National Federation of the Blind, 487
U.S.
781, 797 (1988); Pacific Gas & Electric Co. v. Public Utilities
Comm'n,
475 U.S. 1 (1986); Wooley v. Maynard, 430 U.S. 705, 714
(1977).
        Ratings prescribed by the FCC pursuant to the Act can hardly
be
defended as an innocuous effort to empower parents by supplying
them
with neutral information.  A truly non-coercive effort to
inform
parents, rather than censor what the government believes to
be
"negative" or dangerous ideas, would not rely on the minimal,
inevitably
misleading information conveyed by a letter or code that can be
read by
a computer chip. Parents are better served by fuller
information
(descriptions or reviews) that explains the context in which
violent or
sexual material is presented, and that enables them to make
viewing
decisions based on their own values and childrearing philosophies,
and
the personal maturity levels of their children.

Conclusion
        The ACLU
believes that the extension of the V-chip rules is unnecessary
and unwise
under the Telecommunications Act of 1996.  The ACLU believes
that the FCC
should not hastily embrace or extend plans to incorporate
V-chip technology
in emerging technologies. The FCC can and must
exercise its discretion and
consider alternatives such as media
literacy, promotion of educational
programming and episode reviews. We
believe that there are alternatives that
would not offend core First
Amendment values and accomplish the same
purpose.  In the final
analysis, violence and sex are dramatic, consistent
themes in human life
and history, and like other controversial subjects,
need to be
confronted and discussed rather than suppressed, whether through
direct
censorship laws or through more indirect, convoluted
governmental
ratings and information blocking systems.

Respectfully
submitted,

_______________________________________
Barry Steinhardt
ACLU
Associate Director

____________________________________
A. Cassidy
Sehgal
William J. Brennan Fellow of the ACLU








From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Nov 30 22:25:13 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:25:13 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <89D1ge20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712010717.BAA00499@smoke.suba.com>



Vulis said:
> Only 2 inches are required to reach the prostate.  Anything over that
> is just windows dressing.

	Sounds like the voice of experience to me.






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Sun Nov 30 22:30:40 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:30:40 +0800
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <199712010530.VAA04238@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199712010617.AAA00899@manifold.algebra.com>



Alan Olsen wrote:
> At 04:15 AM 12/1/97 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
> >On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> >> Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...
> >Not by much. [I prefer the 14'' HK "Entry" model].
> 
> I always have prefered the 1 oz copper slugs.  Shot dispersal is tighter if
> you have only one shot.

does any one of you have a .50 BMG.

	- Igor.






From ccs at dev.null  Sun Nov 30 23:24:59 1997
From: ccs at dev.null (CypherPunks Chief SpokesPerson)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:24:59 +0800
Subject: "Faulty Filters" report; anti-rating free speech alliance
In-Reply-To: <v03007806b0a7f42e9fab@[204.254.22.168]>
Message-ID: <34826267.3767@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> EPIC today released a report that finds that "family-friendly" search
> engines typically block access to 99 percent of the material on the
> Internet that would be appropriate for young people. 

 This is no more of a surprise than the results of studies which show
that inbreeding among those in cloistered geographical areas severely
limits the genetic diversity of the enclosed population.

  "Family-friendly" inevitably boils down to being a dishonestly used
simile for "ignorant christian-values."
  Despite the fact that 'family-unfriendly Jesus' spoke of his aim of
setting family members against one another, the followers of his 
mainstream religious cult are determined to institute their own
religious values in the legal system, by working toward forcing their
own religously-oriented filtering system on all citizens.

  Tell me, please, who among the organizations claiming to work for
freedom of speech are ready to demand that the words of Jesus be
subject to the same filtering as those of Aleister Crowley?
  Who is going to demand that the works such as the Bible be subject
to the same filtering values as the works of Lenny Bruce?

> The text of the "Faulty Filters" Report is available at:
> 
>      http://www2.epic.org/reports/filter_report.html
>      http://www.ifea.net
 
  The filters are not "faulty." They do exactly what they are meant
to do--imprison the minds and life-experience of those who are forced
to use them.
  Those promoting volumandatory content ratings want to imprison 
everyone, not just their own children. I't the same old lying
religious fascists up to their same old oppression of those
who breed outside their own genetic family.
  Fuck 'em.

TruthMonger