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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 01:56:44 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:56:44 +0800
Subject: Eugene Kashpureff in custody
Message-ID: <199711010755.IAA24125@basement.replay.com>

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:41:13 +1100
To: aussie-isp at aussie.net, link at www.anu.edu.au, aursc at lists.ah.net
From: Adam Todd 
Subject: [Oz-ISP] Eugene Kashpureff in custody.

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:40:20 -0500 (EST)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSCTALK Discussion List.  Open.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eugene Kashpureff, known for his redirect of the NSI web page, was 
apprehended this morning in Toronto by undercover RCMP detectives.

Pending a deportation hearing, he will be returned to New York to face 
Felony Wire Fraud charges that were sworn out against him after he had 
settled out of court with NSI in regard to their civil suit.

Early in the week Eugene relinquished control of the Alternic to an adhoc 
industry group.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is alledged there are 40,000 individual charges being laid agains Euegene.

It is strongly expected ISP's and DNS operators world wide will provide
support to Eugene through RSC organisation to ensure his safe return.

For more information contact the Author.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The advice offered in this email is not considered professional advice,
or it would be accompanied by an invoice.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Business Development, Technology Domain Registration and Network Advisory
Telstra Convery Member
Adam Todd                                 Personal http://adamtodd.ah.net  
Phone +61 2 9729 0565                     Network  http://www.ah.net
AU Root Server Confederation              http://aursc.ah.net
AU Internet News  mailto:internet-request at ah.net  with "subscribe"

From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov  1 01:58:03 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:58:03 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <2d9fdee2822cc80bd98da311efbf2459@squirrel>
Message-ID: 

At 10:48 PM -0700 10/31/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:

>Tim May wrote:

>>Read "The Millionaire Next Door" for tips on what millionaires (who
>>are of course the "barely non-poor" these days) are likely to be
>>wearing and flaunting. Turns out that most Yuppies driving BMWs and
>>wearning Rolexes are doing so on _credit_. Driving a Mercedes or BMW
>>has nothing to do with actual ability to pay bills.
>
>Perception, not reality, is what is important here.  A wealthy
>appearing person will generally fare better.
>
>It's true, however, that you are probably better off with proof of
>insurance than an expensive watch when being wheeled into the
>emergency room.  (Except for your privacy, that is.)

Those deciding on admittance don't look for Rolexes (besides, fake Rolexes
sell for about $29 at any flea market).

What an insurance card is really a *line of credit*. Or a *proof of
payment*. The admitting hospital knows they'll at least be reimbursed for
the initial visit and emergency treatment.

By contrast, those lacking such a card may use all sorts of claims to avoid
payment fo the bill.

I certainly agree that there ought to be better ways to tell a hospital:

"Look, I can and will pay for treatment if you admit me to your emergency
room."

Even better,

"And I'd like to pay the "preferred rate," not the 3-4x inflated price you
publish as your "list price.""

However, at this time it looks like a Blue Cross or Blue Shield or
equivalent card is the only recognized way to meet these goals.

Perhaps there's a business idea for some enterprising Cypherpunk. A prepaid
hospital card, good for a few days' worth of treatment (e.g., $5000), but
only at the better rates. This could even be done with Chaumian
privacy-protecting methods. There's an idea.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From lurker at ottoman.net  Sat Nov  1 01:58:06 1997
From: lurker at ottoman.net (lurker at ottoman.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:58:06 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710312229.OAA27632@comsec.com>

October 30, 1997
Web posted at: 9:34 p.m. EST (0234 GMT) 

ROBY, Illinois (CNN) -- Shirley A. Allen, a mentally disturbed woman
who held police off for 39 days with a shotgun and entertained herself
by listening to public radio, was captured Thursday and taken to a
hospital. 

"The good news is she's safe," said Terrance Gainer, Illinois state
police director. "The great news is nobody got seriously hurt or killed."

The standoff ended when Allen ventured out on the deck behind her
home to throw away food and water left for her by the police. On her
third trip, she stooped to cut a wire attached to a pail in which a police
camera was hidden. 

A trooper fired six rubber bullets at her, striking her two or three times
and knocking her to the deck, where she was captured. 

Gainer said that Allen, who wore a full camouflage suit padded
with a pillow and magazines, was examined at a hospital and
reported to be in good condition  was feisty enough after the
ordeal to scold police for their tactics during the standoff. 

Gainer said she is still in custody and will undergo a psychiatric
examination. 

"I think she's probably as relieved right now as we are that this
is over," said Allen's brother, Byron Dugger, who talked with her
after she was captured. 

Gainer said Allen asked Dugger to open his mouth to prove he
wasn't someone wearing a mask that looked like him. 

'They have zapped my head with radar' 

The standoff in this small central Illinois town began
September 22 when Allen, 51, brandished a shotgun
as her brother and sheriff's deputies tried to
take her in for a court-ordered evaluation. 

Allen's relatives were concerned because she had
become increasingly depressed and paranoid
since her husband died of pancreatic cancer in 1989. More
recently, she had refused to see or talk to her brother or her
86-year-old mother. 

In a letter to her mother in May 1996, Allen wrote, "They have
zapped my head with radar. I have swelling and inflammation of
the brain." 

She did not say who "they" were, but when police offered her
water after she was captured, she said "the helicopters" told her
not to drink it. There were no helicopters in sight, but she finally
drank the water after troopers drank some to prove it wasn't
poisoned. 

She told them she hadn't eaten or had anything to drink in three
days. 

Allen also talked to her daughter, Kate Waddell, after she was
captured. "But she wasn't quite sure it was Mrs. Waddell,"
Gainer said. 

Allen's case attracted the sympathy of many neighbors and
became a rallying point for some who called it "Roby Ridge,"
likening it to shootouts at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas,
as an example of overzealous law enforcement. 

Standoff cost taxpayers about $1 million 

Others questioned the expense of the standoff.
Gainer tackled that one  head-on at a news conference Thursday, saying
it was about $15,000 a day.   He estimated the total cost
of the operation at $750,000 to $1 million. 

Obviously relieved that Allen was taken alive, an
unapologetic Gainer said,  "But I don't think Mrs.
Shirley Allen is worth a cent less than that." 

Police tried to get Allen out of her green frame
farmhouse with tear gas, pepper spray and music. They
also tried to coax her out with a visit from her favorite
stepdaughter. This week, they began giving her food
and restored her power, which had been shut off
earlier, in a goodwill gesture they hoped would calm
her down. 

Allen had fought off tear gas by smearing her face with
petroleum jelly and withstood beanbag bullets by wearing
heavy layers of clothing. 

She apparently slept in a sleeping bag in the living room -- the room
where her husband died -- and had two transistor radios with earplugs.
Gainer said the radios were tuned to a local public radio station. 

Protesters gathered daily to support her and criticized the police. 

'Mrs. Allen is where she needs to be' 

"The good feeling is it's over for her. The bad feeling
is how she's going to be trapped after this is over
with," said John Powers, a neighbor and one of the
protesters. "We don't know if they'll treat her as a
person who is sane or as a person who tried to shoot
their dog." 

Although Allen fired at state troopers and wounded a
police dog sent into her home Sunday, "it would serve
no useful purpose to charge her," Gainer said. "Given
what we have known from Day 1, Mrs. Allen is where
she needs to be right now." 

Reporter Lisa Price and The Associated Press
contributed to this report.

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 02:55:55 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 18:55:55 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <059ba8257a50981b642ca5005181f75d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711011024.LAA08905@basement.replay.com>

>I am a bit confused. A post to the list claimed that the fifteen year
>old who raped and murdered the eleven year old (both boys) had not
>met his victim on the internet, as initial media sources indicated,
>but on an 800 number phone-chat line.
>I vaguely recall doing a web search to find out the facts for myself
>and confirming the claim. Now I am watching Sixty Minutes on tv and
>they keep repeating the mantra, "met on the internet, met on the 
>internet..."
>Does anyone have the so called real scoop on this?
>
>Thank You
>

Does it really matter now where they met? They could have met at school,
in the park, at a christian day camp, in the back room of a gay bar,
wherever. As long as they both had a passing interest in computers or
even had access to a computer they met on the internet. 

"people are hitting on kids"
"people are sending kiddie porn"
"terrorists and criminals are using it to hatch schemes to kill kids"
"kids are using it to meet criminals and terrorists"
"kids are hitting on terrorists who send kiddie porn"

If I were someone who wanted to make the internet look like a place 
that needed STRONG governmental controls I would put the words 
terrorists,criminals,pornographers,drug dealers/addicts,
hate groups, or any other words that the american public has 
been trained to associate with fear and hatred in a story about 
the internet and pepper it with lines like " 10,000,000 children 
have home computers" and "its the children that lose out" and 
"no longer safe in the dangerous urban streets, children must turn to
the internet" and a few things about losing their innocence at a tender
age. Then I would call the peice "the secret war against our children"

The same people who rushed to associate crime with rock and roll 
music then later rap music, and the same people that rushed to 
associate bizzare murders with dungeons and dragons and then later vampire
role playing games, and the same people who belive that someone
who has unprotected sex with someone to get drugs is not at all 
responsible when they get aids, the same people that endorse cerfews
"to protect children" and agree that high school students should be
sujected to mandatory drug tests and locker searches will all run to
endorse any laws that the government wishes to place regarding "protecting
children on the internet" 

From s67e3tG8D at actrix.gen.nz  Sat Nov  1 20:40:37 1997
From: s67e3tG8D at actrix.gen.nz (s67e3tG8D at actrix.gen.nz)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Reduce your taxes
Message-ID: 

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From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  1 05:12:30 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:12:30 +0800
Subject: apropos list talk and our culture
Message-ID: <199711011312.NAA13437@mail.iso.port.ac.uk>

>I will admit to a guilty pleasure: the opening scene, where the BATF agent
>gets shot in the face, was delicious.

It is often said that American TV is utter rubbish, but
surely this would be the saving grace of such a programme.

I too experienced such an effect a few days ago, when exiting
a stretch of dual-carriageway I saw a car accident up ahead, I
slowed down to see what had happened and saw a police motorcycle
crushed under a car`s wheels, and the badly injured officer being
stretchered away to an ambulance, a grin spread accross my face and
I started laughing. A fine sight.

Of course this story, which, since it involves the injury (and, I sincerely
hope, eventual death) of a jackbooted thug, has a sad side to it, The police
bikes 
were being riden unsafely and without any regard for other motorists (they
were in a 
convoy of about 30 bikes presumably guarding some statist motherfucker), but
I would 
lay money that the driver who was hit by the cop bike is blamed and
prosecuted for 
the accident.

Paul Bradley, currently in limbo between accounts but always reachable
at paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk

                Paul Bradley
          paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
           SMS: +44 (0)410933621
  "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov  1 05:35:36 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:35:36 +0800
Subject: BXA Agenda
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971101132827.00a5b8d0@pop.pipeline.com>

BXA has published its semiannual regulatory agenda
scheduling the issuance of export rules for encryption,
dual use technology, Wassenaar implementation, 
communications intercept devices, and, a new one (to me), 
controlling access to source code by foreign nationals, 
among other banes.

   http://jya.com/bxa-sra.htm  (60K)

Here's the abstract for GAK:

-----

   604. LICENSING OF, AND EXPANSION OF NATIONAL SECURITY 
   AND FOREIGN POLICY CONTROLS ON, RECOVERABLE 
   ENCRYPTION SOFTWARE

   Abstract: This rule will amend the Export Administration Regulations by 
   imposing enhanced national security and foreign policy controls on 
   certain recoverable encryption to supplement the national security 
   controls on those items. This rule will also amend the EAR to exclude 
   recoverable encryption software from the de minimis provisions for 
   exports from abroad of foreign-origin software incorporating U.S.-
   origin software. In addition, this rule amends the Commerce Control 
   List by adding ECCNs to control recoverable encryption software 
   transferred from the U.S. Munitions List.

-----

FIM, all departments of the USG are required to pulished twice
yearly (April and October) regulatory agendas for implementing 
rules devised to breed FAL outside GovBot and LAM within.

See compendium of all agendas published October 29 under
"Unified Agenda" at:

   http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html

From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov  1 07:06:46 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 23:06:46 +0800
Subject: Call for Papers - 3rd USENIX Electronic Commerce Workshop
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

X-Sender: treese at mail-60.OpenMarket.com
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:07:02 -0500
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
From: Win Treese 
Subject: Call for Papers - 3rd USENIX Electronic Commerce Workshop
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Win Treese 

>From: ec-mailing-owner at usenix.ORG
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:24:01 -0700 (PDT)
>Reply-To: ec-mailing-request at usenix.ORG
>Subject:  Call for Papers - 3rd USENIX Electronic Commerce Workshop
>Apparently-To: 
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>Electronic Commerce is a rapidly growing area with global economic
>implications.  I'm excited to be able to say that we're putting
>together the Third USENIX Workshop on Electronic Commerce, and I
>invite your participation.  This vital inter-disciplinary field
>thrives from a cross pollenation of ideas and techniques from many
>areas, and this workshop will be a great opportunity for you to
>present your findings as well as learn about other latest results.
>
>So, mark your calendars!  The workshop will take place from August 31
>to September 3, 1998, and paper submissions are due by March 6, 1998.
>I hope to see you in Boston!
>
>Bennet Yee
>Program Chair
>ec98chair at usenix.org
>=================================================================
>
>Announcement and Call for Participation
>
>3rd USENIX Workshop on Electronic Commerce
>August 31-September 3, 1998
>Tremont Hotel, Boston, MA
>
>Sponsored by USENIX, the Advanced Computing Systems Association
>
>For more information about this conference, see the Electronic
>Commerce Website:  http://www.usenix.org/events/ec98
>
>IMPORTANT DATES
>Extended abstracts due: 	March 6, 1998
>Notification to authors: 	April 17, 1998
>Camera-ready final papers due: 	July 21, 1998
>
>
>PROGRAM COMMITTEE
>Chair: Bennet S. Yee, UC San Diego
>
>Ross Anderson, Cambridge University
>Nathaniel Borenstein, First Virtual
>Marc Donner, Morgan Stanley
>Niels Ferguson, Digicash
>Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corp.
>Cliff Neuman, University of Southern California
>Avi Rubin, AT&T Labs
>Win Treese, OpenMarket
>Hal Varian, U.C. Berkeley
>Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University
>
>
>OVERVIEW
>
>The Third Workshop on Electronic Commerce will provide a major
>opportunity for researchers, experimenters, and practitioners in
>this rapidly self-defining field to exchange ideas and present the
>results of their work. It will set the technical agenda for work in
>electronic commerce by enabling workers to examine urgent
>questions, share their insights and discover connections with other
>work that might otherwise go unnoticed. To facilitate this, the
>conference will not be limited to technical problems and solutions,
>but will also consider their context: the economic and regulatory
>forces that influence the engineering choices we make, and the
>social and economic impact of network based trading systems.
>
>
>TUTORIALS PROPOSALS WELCOME
>
>One day of tutorials will precede the Workshop on August 31.
>USENIX's well-respected tutorials are intensive and provide
>immediately-useful information delivered by skilled instructors who
>are hands-on experts in their topic areas. Topics for the
>Electronic Commerce Workshop will include, but are not limited to,
>security and cryptography. If you are interested in presenting a
>tutorial, please contact:
>
>Dan Klein, Coordinator
>Email: dvk at usenix.org
>Phone: 412.421.2332
>
>
>WORKSHOP TOPICS
>
>Two and one-half days of technical sessions will follow the
>tutorials. We welcome submissions for technical and position paper
>presentations, reports of work-in-progress, technology debates, and
>identification of new open problems. Birds-of-a-Feather sessions in
>the evenings and a keynote speaker will round out the program.
>
>We seek papers that address a wide range of issues and ongoing
>developments, including, but not limited to:
>
>Advertising
>Anonymous transactions
>Auditability
>Business issues
>Copy protection
>Credit/Debit/Cash models
>Cryptographic security
>Customer service
>Digital money
>EDI
>Electronic libraries
>Electronic wallets
>Email-enabled business
>Exception handling
>Identity verification
>Internet direct marketing
>Internet/WWW integration
>Key management
>Legal and policy issues
>Micro-transactions
>Negotiations
>Privacy
>Proposed systems
>Protocols
>Reliability
>Reports on existing systems
>Rights management
>Service guarantees
>Services vs. digital goods
>Settlement
>Smart-cards
>
>Questions regarding a topic's relevance to the workshop may be
>addressed to the program chair via electronic mail to
>ec98chair at usenix.org. USENIX will publish Conference Proceedings
>which are provided free to technical session attendees; additional
>copies will be available for purchase from USENIX.
>
>
>WHAT TO SUBMIT
>
>Technical paper submissions and proposals for panels must be
>received by March 6, 1998. We welcome submissions of the following
>type:
>
>1. Refereed Papers - Full papers or extended abstracts should be five
>   to 20 pages, not counting references and figures.
>
>2. Panel proposals - Proposals should be three to seven pages,
>   together with a list of names of potential panelists. If
>   accepted, the proposer must secure the participation of
>   panelists, and prepare a three to seven page summary of panel
>   issues for inclusion in the Proceedings. This summary can
>   include position statements by panel participants.
>
>3. Work-In-Progress Reports - Short, pithy, and fun, WIP reports
>   introduce interesting new or ongoing work and should be 1 to 3
>   pages in length. If you have work you would like to share or a
>   cool idea that is not quite ready to publish, a WIP is for you!
>   We are particularly interested in presenting student work.
>
>Each submission must include a cover letter stating the paper title
>and authors, along with the name of the person who will act as the
>contact to the program committee. Please include a surface mail
>address, daytime and evening phone number, email and fax numbers
>and, if available, a URL for each author. If all of the authors are
>students, please indicate that in the cover letter for award
>consideration (see "Awards" below).
>
>USENIX workshops, like most conferences and journals, require that
>papers not be submitted simultaneously to more than one conference
>or publication and that submitted papers not be previously or
>subsequently published elsewhere. Submissions accompanied by
>non-disclosure agreement forms are not acceptable and will be
>returned to the author(s) unread. All submissions are held in the
>highest confidentiality prior to publication in the Proceedings,
>both as a matter of policy and in accord with the U.S. Copyright
>Act of 1976.
>
>
>WHERE TO SUBMIT PROPOSALS
>
>Please send submissions to the program committee via one of the
>following methods. All submissions will be acknowledged.
>
>Preferred Method: email (Postscript or PDF formats only) to:
>ec98papers at usenix.org.
>
>Files should be encoded for transport with uuencode or MIME base64
>encoding.  Authors should ensure that the PostScript is generic and
>portable so that their papers will print on a broad range of
>postscript printers, and should submit in sufficient time to allow
>us to contact the author about alternative delivery mechanisms in
>the event of network or other failure. If you send PostScript,
>remember the following:
>
>1) Use only the most basic fonts (TimesRoman, Helvetica, Courier).
>   Other fonts are not available with every printer or previewer.
>
>2) PostScript that requires some special prolog to be loaded into
>   the printer won't work for us. Please don't send it.
>
>3) If you use a PC- or Macintosh-based word processor to generate
>   your PostScript, print it on a generic PostScript printer before
>   sending it, to make absolutely sure that the PostScript is
>   portable.
>
>4) If you are generating the PostScript from a program running
>   under Windows, make sure that you establish the "portable"
>   setting, not the "speed" setting for PostScript generation.
>
>A good heuristic is to make sure that recent versions of Ghostview
>(e.g. Ghostview 1.5 using Ghostscript 3.33) can display your
>paper.
>
>Alternate Method: 10 copies, via postal delivery to:
>
>EC'98 Submissions
>USENIX Association
>2560 Ninth Street, Suite 215
>Berkeley, CA 94710
>
>For detailed submission guidelines, send email to ec98authors at usenix.org,
>refer to the conference Web page at
>www.usenix.org/events/ec98/guidelines.html,
>or send email to the program chair at ec98chair at usenix.org.  An
>electronic version of this Call for Papers is available at:
>www.usenix.org/events/ec98/.
>
>
>BIRDS-OF-A-FEATHER SESSIONS (BoFs)
>
>Do you have a topic that you'd like to discuss with others? Our
>Birds-of-a-Feather Sessions may be perfect for you. BoFs are very
>interactive and informal gatherings for attendees interested in a
>particular topic. Schedule your BoF in advance by telephoning the
>USENIX Conference Office at 714.588.8649 or sending email to:
>conference at usenix.org.
>
>
>AWARDS
>
>The program committee will offer awards of $500 for the best paper
>and the best student paper.
>
>
>REGISTRATION INFORMATION
>
>Materials containing all details of the technical and tutorial
>programs, registration fees and forms and hotel information will be
>available in June, 1998. If you wish to receive the registration
>materials, please contact USENIX at:
>
>USENIX Conference Office
>22672 Lambert Street, Suite 613
>Lake Forest, CA 92630
>Phone: 714 588 8649
>Fax: 714 588 9706
>Email: conference at usenix.org
>
>
>ABOUT USENIX
>
>USENIX is the Advanced Computing Systems Association. Since 1975
>USENIX has brought together the community of engineers, system
>administrators, and technicians working on the cutting edge of the
>computing world. For more information about USENIX:
>
>URL: http://www.usenix.org
>Email: office at usenix.org
>Fax: 510.548.5738
>Phone: 510.528.8649
>
>

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: 

From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Nov  1 07:39:21 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 23:39:21 +0800
Subject: FBI Provides Soft Target List! (WAS: Suitcase packed, and nowhere to go...)
In-Reply-To: <345A9417.13FA@dev.null>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

> 
> *      Following is the list of the 33 IRS District
> * Headquarters Offices:
> * 
> * FROM:  FBI NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION
> * Pacific Northwest District--Seattle, WA
> * Northern California District--Oakland, CA.

The Oakland federal building is anything but a soft target. It is a
relatively new builing that was designed from the gound up with blast
control in mind. Tapered twin towers, glass roofs build to release
excess internal pressure, ample free space around the towers, five story
buffer buildings containg only non-essential human shield services
(public post office, childcare center) along the critical sides. Excellent
design.

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

From brianbr at together.net  Sat Nov  1 08:14:58 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:14:58 +0800
Subject: apropos list talk and our culture
Message-ID: <199711011611.LAA17911@mx02.together.net>

On 10/29/97 7:38 AM, Brad Dolan (bdolan at USIT.NET)  passed this wisdom:

>"Michael Hays" is a new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney.  Last
>night's episode was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener
>to kill a BATF agent and was brought to justice.  DA convinced a jury
>that some things were "more important" than the first amendment.

 No that was not the point made, in fact the show made a strong point in 
favor of the first amendment. They went after the shock-jock because he 
specifically incited a specific individiual with words which we he knew 
would have an immediate cause and effect result in getting this guy to go 
out and kill someone. There is a difference, and I personally thought 
they made the point well .... now the accused did try to hide behind the 
first amendment but that was not what the first amendment is all about.

  You have to pick yopur mountains to die on in those arenas and the 
shock-jocks cause would not have been one I would have touched were I a 
Constitutional lawyer.

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  

  "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user,
   he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy 

From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Nov  1 08:34:33 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:34:33 +0800
Subject: FYI re BATF (fwd)
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:04:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Peter F Cassidy 
To: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: FYI re BATF (fwd)
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by pop.sneaker.net id
LAA23122

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 06:35:29 -0500
From: Unka Bart 
To: Peter Cassidy 
Subject: FYI re BATF

From: John_Johnson 
Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:30:51 -0600
To: FIREARMS at LISTSERV.UTA.EDU
Subject:      Fwd: Is the BATF Up to Their Old Tricks Again? **** Begin
              Forwarded Message ****

 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:32:09 -0700
 From: Douglas Davis 
 Subject: Is the BATF Up to Their Old Tricks Again?

> From: byteme at msn.com (Karmann Powell)
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:27:52 -0500
> Organization: AirPower Information Services (610) 259-2193
> Subject: Is the BATF Up to Their Old Tricks Again?
>
> I am cross posting this e-mailed information received from a
> Karmann in AZ. She has e-mailed me and sent local newspaper
> information via snail mail to support her claims that her
> community is being bullied by the BATF. For some reason they
> are having a difficult time getting the information out - even
> with a whole community and local newspaper of angry citizens.
> Anyone that can assist and verify the following would be most
> appreciated.
>
> ****************************************************************
>
> RIGHTS & FREEDOMS AT RISK IN NEW RIVER, ARIZONA
> New River is a small, non-incorporated community 30 miles north
> of Phoenix, AZ.  On September 10, 1997, the BATF raided the
> property of Charles Byers, a former munitions manufacturer.
> On the property they found a shed containing chemicals that the
> BATF claims are highly unstable and shock sensitive. A list of
> the chemicals obtained via court records shows that most of the
> chemicals are used in the production of fireworks. The shed has
> been described by some as "a glorified high school chem. lab".
> Our community, as well as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights,
> are under an all out assault.  The BATF has invaded New River and
> plans to create an environmental hazard against our wishes and
> without legal permits.  On September 23, 1997, the BATF blew up
> two bunkers full of explosives.  The community was not notified.
> The resulting shock wave rattled houses as far as four miles away.
> Kids at New River Elementary school were bounced out of their chairs
> and  scared half out of their wits. The materials in the shed did
> not ignite.
> The BATF brought in heavy equipment to build a berm around the shed,
> then constructed a concrete wall on top of it.  The BATF claims that
> the heavy equipment did not set off the chemicals in the shed because
> they used equipment with "rubber tires."
> The BATF decided the only way to solve the problems of the unstable
> chemicals is to burn the shed using Thermite as an accelerant to
> incinerate the shed and its contents at temperatures between 3000
> and 5000 degrees. This would completely destroy any organic compounds
> that might exist.  The inorganic compounds would not be destroyed,
> but would instead, vaporize and form possible new and deadly airborne
> combinations. The EPA approved the BATF's plan, a federal judge
> issued an evacuation order, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, went
> along.  The burn was set for October 18, 1997.  The Sheriff, a thirty
> year veteran of the DEA, sent his posse to notify residents that they
> were to evacuate their property, including all domestic animals and
> birds.  Since this is a rural area, most people have more than just
> a cat or dog. Folks here raise horses, pigs, chickens and exotic
> birds and animals.  Many raise more than one species and have
> multiple head.
> At a community meeting with the BATF, EPA and Sheriff Arpaio,
> residents asked questions of the assembled panel.  The panel could
> not or would not respond to residents inquires:  "What exactly was
> in the shed and in what quantities?  What effect would burning the
> chemicals have on our soil, air and ground water, both short and
> long term?  Where were residents to take their animals?  Who was
> going to pay for any damages sustained to properties (Brush fired
> hazard is very high this time of the years)?"
> It was evident that the effects of the burn had not been determined.
>  The EPA representative said numerous times, "We will monitor before
> and after."  Sheriff Arpaio threatened to forcibly remove anyone who
> refused to leave their property.  He could not understand why
> residents did not want - or appreciate - his 'protection'.  He stated
> that it is within his power and responsibilities to protect us from
> ourselves. So many people refused to evacuate that the October 18
> burn was postponed until November 1, 1997.  Three hundred fifty homes
> were to be evacuated, for 12 to 24 hours, within a three mile radius
> of Byers' property.  The evacuation maps provided to us, prepared by
> the BATF, were completely wrong.  They have been redrawn - with the
> radius now only extending 1.5 miles so as not to inconvenience the
> people in the Manufacturer's Outlet Mall nearly three miles from the
> proposed burn site.    When asked, "If these chemicals are so
> sensitive, why did the BATF set off explosions near the shed?", they
> said it was a mistake.
> We have not accepted that the federal, or even local, government can
> force us to leave our homes, proceed with reckless behavior with
> detrimental effects on our land, lives and livelihoods, and not be
> accountable.  The BATF and Sheriff Arpaio have tried to make us feel
> like we are over-reacting and just need to get with the program.
> Sheriff Arpaio did not stop his threats of forcible removal - until
> he was contacted by the community's attorney.
> On October 25,1997, New River residents held a peaceful demonstration
> at the site of the proposed burn.  We walked two miles up and down
> steep hills and stood before the BATF with American flags.  We wanted
> to remind the BATF that this is still America and that we have the
> right to live peacefully on our property.  Our government cannot, on
> a whim, destroy what we have worked so hard to build.
> Certain sections of our government are testing American's resolve.
> They are looking to see where we draw the line.  In New River, we
> have drawn that line in the dirt we hold sacred.  We will not allow
> the burn and will not leave our homes.
> A talk show host in Phoenix called what's happening here "The New
> River Rebellion."  We do not want New River added to the list of
> American Tragedies that  includes Ruby Ridge and Waco.  Call your
> own congressman or senator.  Let them know that you know about New
> River.  If we let it happen here, where will it stop?
>
> Contact the following people/locations for comments or more
> information:
> Karmann Powell - byteme at msn.com
> The Desert Advocate, Karen Seemeyer, Editor - thedesadv at aol.com
> The Arizona Republic - being covered by Timothy Tait
> timothy.tait at pni.com
>
> --
> (byteme at msn.com)
> AirPower Services BBS - (610) 259-2193 - info at airgunhq.com
> Interested in Firearms, RKBA, Airguns, the Shooting Sports?
>             PRN Regional HQ, Northeast United States
> *  Jim Henry and AirPower Services take no responsibility for *
> *  message content as this is an *un-moderated* list.         *
--
 John_Johnson
 TXJohn47 at ix.netcom.com
 � 1997 All rights reserved

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: 

From brianbr at together.net  Sat Nov  1 08:36:13 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:36:13 +0800
Subject: apropos list talk and our culture
Message-ID: <199711011630.LAA23465@mx01.together.net>

On 10/29/97 10:06 AM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>>At 5:38 AM -0700 10/29/97, Brad Dolan wrote: "Michael Hays" is a 
>>new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney. Last night's episode 
>>was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener to kill a 
>>BATF agent and was brought to justice. DA convinced a jury that 
>>some things were "more important" than the first amendment.
>
>I was just about to mention this show, in connection with the Waco 
>incident.
>
>I was truly disgusted by the show. None of the relative balance and 
>realismthat "Law and Order" has, by comparison. For starters, very 
>unrealistic. Even Freeh and Company understand the role of the 
>First (to give them theirdue). Just plain bad writers.

  I really disagree with your overall assessment, but yes it definitely 
wasn't in a league with L&O and the script was somewhat uneven

>Some of the slimy stuff: (all quotes are rough paraphrases)
>
>* references to Waco followers as crazies: "they seem to show up 
>everywhere"
>
>* a black assistant to Hayes talks about the chat rooms and online 
>discussion groups that the "extreme right wing" people are in: "And 
>this stuff is completely unregulated!"

  these were out of line and sort of to be expected these days

>* the First Amendment is seen as a minor obstacle to prosecution. 
>Hayes congratulates his assistant at the end for finding a way 
>around the First as a defense.

  Thats not how I viewed it, I don't remeber the words, but I saw it that 
he was not going to 'go after' the first amendment and cautioned them 
about how unwise that was. 

>* the talk show host has apparently done nothing more than many of 
>us havedone on this list
>
>* he is convicted because he claimed not to have ever met the 
>murderer, buta tearful witness (girlfriend of the murderer) says 
>they did meet, briefly.
>
>(No evidence is presented that the talk show host participated, 
>supplied weapons, encouraged the murderer, etc.)

  maybe I am dreaming about something else, but I think they clearly 
showed that he had met with the guy and was fully aware that he was a 
crazy and could be pushed over the line

>* Oh, and to add to the sliminess, the DA's office promises the 
>tearful girlfriend that her boyfriend will get a life sentence 
>instead of death if she testifies, but "whoops."

  definite slime 

>After the assistant to Hayes talks about the Net being "completely 
>unregulated!," and after finding the "Pentium II with 48 megs of 
>memory," I was expecting some mention of encryption. As a way to 
>further show how evilthe online community is. But I saw no mention.

   well gee maybe we should arrest everyone with a pentium/ppc and more 
than 16 Megs of RAM for possesion of 'cyber-terrorist' tools

>I will admit to a guilty pleasure: the opening scene, where the 
>BATF agentgets shot in the face, was delicious.  

   I looked at it with mixed emotions ... BATF is made up of guys and 
gals just like us, some good, some bad, some sheep. The problem with BATF 
is that their leadership sucked and the bad ones got their way. Just like 
years ago, when Philadelphia elected Frank Rizzo (former Police 
Commsisioner) mayor ... he wasn't a bad cop but ran a little rough shod 
over the Bill of Rights from time to time ... with him as Mayor, the 
Philadelphia PD went to hell in a handbasket because all his old cronies 
could get away with murder (often literally!)

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For my PGP Keys     

  "...error reading WinOS. (A)bort, (R)etry, (M)acintosh?"

From Selective.Marketing at dthead.dwt.daewoo.co.kr  Sun Nov  2 01:21:45 1997
From: Selective.Marketing at dthead.dwt.daewoo.co.kr (Selective.Marketing at dthead.dwt.daewoo.co.kr)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:21:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Here It Is !!
Message-ID: < 199.232.240.13>

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From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov  1 09:24:48 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:24:48 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <199711011630.LAA23465@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: 

At 9:30 AM -0700 11/1/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>On 10/29/97 10:06 AM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>>* the First Amendment is seen as a minor obstacle to prosecution.
>>Hayes congratulates his assistant at the end for finding a way
>>around the First as a defense.
>
>  Thats not how I viewed it, I don't remeber the words, but I saw it that
>he was not going to 'go after' the first amendment and cautioned them
>about how unwise that was.

You said in your other post this morning that you thought this was clearly
not a First Amendment case. I disagree. Though the episode obfuscated the
issue. Read on.

>>* the talk show host has apparently done nothing more than many of
>>us havedone on this list
>>
>>* he is convicted because he claimed not to have ever met the
>>murderer, buta tearful witness (girlfriend of the murderer) says
>>they did meet, briefly.
>>
>>(No evidence is presented that the talk show host participated,
>>supplied weapons, encouraged the murderer, etc.)
>
>  maybe I am dreaming about something else, but I think they clearly
>showed that he had met with the guy and was fully aware that he was a
>crazy and could be pushed over the line

Since when is broadcasting a radio to relevision show or writing an essay
evidence of complicity in a murder, even when it "pushes someone over the
line"?

Is Senator Helms responsible if somebody shoots Clinton? ("Clinton had
better be wearing a bulletproof vest if he visits my state") How about talk
show host G. Gordon Liddy? ("Go for head shots")

How about the people on this list? Am I culpable for the actions of, say,
Jim Bell?

If this is the criterion, all publication and broadcast will cease if the
broadcaster or publisher or writer or whatever has any belief that some
crazy person might hear his words and act on it. If Dan Rather knows that
some crazy person watches his show and is enraged to see interracial
marriages, for example, is Dan then complicit when he shows such a scene
and the crazy racist commits murder?

(Would it matter if Dan Rather had been witnessed personally speaking to
the crazy racist?)

As the "Michael Hayes" episode showed things, the radio show guy had only
barely met the guy, in passing. This does not make him responsible for the
actions of the guy. (I agree that the talk show guy was stupid to have
denied meeting the shooter....he could have just said, "I meet a lot of
people...I don't remember all of them.")

(I think this was thrown in to obfuscate the basic constitutional issues,
hence my earlier comment that the talk show host was apparently convicted
because he lied, and not on the real issue of culpability. Bad writing. Bad
law.)

Lawyers talk about a "nexus." If I rant and rave on this list about taking
action against the State, about defending myself in predawn ninja raids,
and then someone like Bell or Vulis or Detweiler actually goes out and
(allegedly) commits some crime, can I held to be a co-conspirator or a
co-participant?

Even if I _know_ they're crazy?

If there is no nexus, no direct contact, then culpability is lost.

(One defense in court I would use to the "and was fully aware that he was a
crazy" point Brian raised above is "I'm not his psychiatrist...I didn't
diagnose him." Lawyers are always fond of reminding witnesses that they're
not qualified in certain areas, so....)

Look, I disagree with the "hate speech" laws, as many free speech advocates
do. (Check out what the ACLU has to say about such laws.) But the most the
talk show host should have been charged with was a violation of the hate
speech laws (not that I support this). Calling him a co-conspirator in a
murder is ludicrous.

But since I don't who on this list is crazy and who is not, and who may be
arrested tomorrow or during the Thanksgiving Day Raids, I'd better shut up.

--Tim May, Co-Conspirator in the Bell Case

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov  1 09:30:55 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:30:55 +0800
Subject: [FWD] Further Attacks on "cajones.com" Vindicate Jeff Burchell and the Huge Cajones Remailer
Message-ID: 

dr at ripco.com (David Richards) wrote:

> It appears that the domain 'cajones.com' is being abandoned due to the
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^
> massive forgery by spammers? No nameservers respond...
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Enclosed is a spam recently received, through the open relay 'rio.bravo.net'
> from an IBM.NET dialup.
>  
> Note that the only body text in this spam is a URL that doesn't work because
> the spammer truncated the URL, and the complete url points to what appears
> to be a legitimate site, so he was probably trying to promote a personal
> home page or other sub-site on 'http://www.fcl.metronet.lib.mi.us/'
>  
>  
> === Spam with headers intact ===
> 
> From cajones.com!weijoro79 Fri Oct 31 22:58:42 1997
> Return-Path: 
> Received: from rio.bravo.net (root at 207.48.46.12)
>   by XXXXX.ZZZZZ.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 1997 04:58:38 -0000
> Received: from LOCALNAME (slip166-72-172-87.fl.us.ibm.net [166.72.172.87]) by rio.bravo.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) > with SMTP id WAA24372; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:32:27 -0600            
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:32:27 -0600
> From: weijoro79 at cajones.com               
> To: weijoro79 at cajones.com
> Comments: Authenticated sender is 
> Errors-To: nobody at nowhere.com
> Subject: Create custom targeted e-mail address lists...
> Message-Id: <199711012578NAA22995 at cajones.bravo.net>
>  
> http://www.fcl.metronet.lib.m

That's quite interesting.  Spam is arriving with forged headers that
attempt to implicate "cajones.com".

That domain has quite a colorful history.  According to InterNIC records,
it's operated by Jeff Burchell, who is also the former operator of the
defunct Huge Cajones Remailer which he operated as part of that domain.

Along came Gary Burnore , CEO of DataBasix, who
claimed that Jeff's remailer at cajones.com was being used to "forge"
his e-mail address to Usenet articles.  His only evidence was a few 
messages which happened to have a "cajones.com" message id in the 
headers, and they weren't even very convincing forgery attempts at that. 

Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryan , and William J. 
McClatchie (aka "Wotan")  managed to harass Jeff 
sufficiently that he shut the remailer down.  At the time, Burnore
refused to concede the possibility that any "forgeries" of articles in 
his name might also have forged headers designed to implicate 
"cajones.com" as well.  Rather he relied on the fact that Jeff kept no
logs which could prove the innocence of himself and his remailer.

Now the "cajones.com" domain is dead, and yet it's still showing up in
forged headers!  It looks like another of Gary Burnore's "shoot first
and ask questions later" accusations has been cast into doubt.
Unfortunately, it's probably too late to undo the disinformation
campaign that he waged against Jeff Burchell and other remailer
operators.

--
Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.

 -- General William Westmoreland   

From azur at netcom.com  Sat Nov  1 09:41:55 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:41:55 +0800
Subject: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>An entity claiming to be Steve Schear wrote:
>: >: Tim May wrote:
>: >:
>: >: (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
>: >: consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably
>from
>: >: a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing
>libertarian
>: >: whacko.)
>: >
>: >Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still
>: >indicates a sociopath.
>:
>: Perhaps, but is being a sociopath that bad?  When those who administer the
>: justice system in society are out-of-control, or have consciously decided
>: to ignore the constitutional protections they are charged with upholding
>: then strong, extra-legal, measures may be called for in order to right the
>: apple cart.
>
>While being an eloquent statement of support for gang warfare, it still
>disagrees with the old adage of "two wrongs don't make a right" [1].  It does
>indicate that this concept of justice causes any traces of "law" to go right
>down the drain anytime one person oversteps the boundary.  If Tim were
>justified in breaking the law because a (hypothetical) LEO broke his end of
>the Constitutional bargain, wouldn't that make the "law" in question moot?

Yes, such direct measures by a wronged individual can set the stage for
further lawlessness and should only be undertaken after all reasonable
legal measures within the system have been exhausted.  Justice is, in my
opinion, more important than the survivial of the system, when that system
no longer can deliver justice.  If LEOs feel they can overstep their legal
restraints with impunity, because their superiors won't know or care, or
the courts are very unlikely to punish, then the laws have already become
moot.

>
>I'm not attacking your ideals, or Tim's, I'm just wondering if this sort
>of reactionary violence is valid.  If Tim were arrested on some bogus charge
>[2] and were held as a political prisoner, let's say he does as he says he
>would ... leaving a corpse in jackboots.  Wouldn't that add more fuel to the
>fires of the political reptiles, resulting in more oppresive law enforcement?

Yes, and this is exactly what is happening with the dramatic militarization
of enforcement units in unlikely government organizations.

>
>I'm not saying that he should just turn the other cheek, I'm just wondering if
>there aren't more effective ways of dealing with an out of control government.
>The American public won't be roused to open revolution quite so easily.  They
>have jobs, cars, houses, kids, dogs, digital watches [3] and lots of other
>things that they do not want to lose.  Revolution is untidy, and Americans
>know this, so does the government ... this gives them a BIG advantage, it
>makes the citizenry very compliant.

At the time of the American Revolution a similar situation existed.  The
crown set the stage with standing colonial armies paid for by colonial
citizens against their wishes, forced billeting of soldiers in residential
homes, harsh and unjust laws and extridition of accused to England for
trials by non-peers, etc.  It has been widely estimated that only 10-15% of
the colonists participated in the Revolution, most being either loyalists
or too afraid to get involved. Of course, we're a long way from this.

>
>How do you see Tim's stance as being practical?

For those who seek the overthrow of order imposed by who they accuse of
ignoring constitutional guarantees, nothing could be better than to manuver
them into ever more blatant and publicized abuses of civil rights.  So long
as instigators carefully chose the battle ground and keep collateral damage
to a minimum, common citizens (with no particular radical bent) will see
through the spin doctors, revealing the true stripes of those with naked
power ambitions and see themselves as possible next targets for abuse.  It
only takes 10-15%.

Personally, I doubt any actions short of those which sucessfully challenge
the ability of the Feds to protect citizens from lawlessness will cause
significant numbers of citizens to reconsider their allegence.

The problems we are facing were largely explored by Alexis de Toqueville in
the first quarter of the 19th century.  He predicted that "tyranny of the
majority",the darker side of democracy, was a possible result of the
American experiment.  Jefferson's solution, frequent revolutions, has
unfortuately been shunned.

--Steve

From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov  1 09:42:50 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:42:50 +0800
Subject: BATF as an internal army
In-Reply-To: <199711011630.LAA23465@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: 

At 9:30 AM -0700 11/1/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:

>   I looked at it with mixed emotions ... BATF is made up of guys and
>gals just like us, some good, some bad, some sheep. The problem with BATF
>is that their leadership sucked and the bad ones got their way. Just like
>years ago, when Philadelphia elected Frank Rizzo (former Police
>Commsisioner) mayor ... he wasn't a bad cop but ran a little rough shod
>over the Bill of Rights from time to time ... with him as Mayor, the
>Philadelphia PD went to hell in a handbasket because all his old cronies
>could get away with murder (often literally!)

The problem with the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, for
you foreigners reading this) is that it is an agency designed solely to
fight contraband and smuggling.

Just as organized crime gained a major foothold in America by smuggling and
distributing booze (by this I mean the Kennedy Clan, of course, and some
random Sicilians), so too the BATF became a standing army to fight (or take
bribes from) their opponents.

If the government got out of the unconstitutional (I believe) business of
telling people what kind of stuff they could put in their mouths or bodies,
and got out of the business of trying to micromanage the types of Second
Amendment instruments they owned, their wouldn't be a need for the BATF,
would there?

The BATFis really an internal army, just like so many statist countries have.

This is why they're getting Blackhawk choppers, Bradley Fighting Vehicles,
fully automatic weapons, and access to SIGINT and COMINT resources. In
conjunction with the DEA, Customs, and other such agencies.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From phelix at vallnet.com  Sat Nov  1 10:33:29 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:33:29 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <345e6cee.15028468@128.2.84.191>

First, PGPsdk has been released:

	http://www.pgp.com/sdk/

The bad news:  the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
freeware or shareware applications using it.  Here's an example of the
licensing:

License Plan #1

                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
server) 

Add Certificate Server Integration: 
                                          $5,000 advance on royalties 

Support/Upgrades 
                            (includes email support by a trained
                            developer support technician) 
                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments 

Oh well, back to hacking an interface to PGPtray.

-- Phelix

From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Nov  1 10:34:30 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:34:30 +0800
Subject: Source code obfuscation
In-Reply-To: <199710281613.LAA28421@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: 

If you can generate useful source code, you should be able to write a 
useful parser that strips out comments. You can also "search and replace" 
variable names w/ obscure ones - just dont miss any.  ;)

-r.w.

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In ,
> on 10/28/97 
>    at 04:52 PM, Lucky Green  said:
> 
> >Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to 
> >obscure source code so that it builds, but no longer
> >contains comments or useful variable or procedure
> >names?
> 
> Write it in ASM, 99.9% woun't have a clue to what it is. :)
> 
> - -- 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3a
> Charset: cp850
> Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBNFYOgY9Co1n+aLhhAQGMIAQAx42lvkz9dynJF5jwjmzenn9VrjwNS1MB
> hq93tq2X8kQVjrZq4D+pmztCdFqatMiO4a4q0xLuwewQQ4gH7mcpVo5OixPONldr
> oS/rd6bf/U8yNDQvW9N+1nh2nzOV01UFoXbz0hUjhgvZpQlvs0Xs+2V1CVk1q6hA
> 3jhSS8ZwSaI=
> =ckXx
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 

From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov  1 10:39:31 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:39:31 +0800
Subject: [SURVEY] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
Message-ID: 

Adam Back  wrote:

>Fill out and email me, and I'll tabulate results, and post here and on
>ietf-open-pgp:

>==============================8<==============================
>mini straw poll on pgp2.x and 5.x usage:
>
>1. What are you currently using for everyday use: 2.x or 5.x

>[ 2 or 5 ]

2.x. 5.x is purposefully incompatable and crippled.

>2. What proportion of people you use PGP to communicate with are using 5.x

>[ x / y ]

None. If they're using 5.x I by definition can't communicate with them.

>3. How many of the 5.x users you communicate with are cypherpunks

>[ z ]

See above.

>==============================8<==============================

>The question has come up on ietf-open-pgp as to how important it is
>for the OpenPGP standard to support backwards compatibility with
>pgp2.x.

Very. 5.x right now is nothing but annoying. I can understand wanting to use
the new algorithms. However if the authors want to do that and literally
force people into upgrading then they need to make sure that every
platform which had a version of 2.x has a version of 5.x available, and they
need to stop breaking *every* script and program which calls PGP. If they 
release a version of PGP for one platform before they do others and the new
version is incompatable with the old for all intents and purposes, they're
just feeding OS wars, frustration, and hostility.

>The IETF generally likes to steer clear of patented algorithms as
>MUSTs in standards.  This encourages implementations, etc.
>(Personally I'm pretty keen on this point, though I would like more
>backwards compatible pgp5.x implementations -- I've already received
>emails I can't read without resorting to the pgp5 command line app,
>which doesn't work with my mailer integrated system.)

That's exactly my situation. I figure, however, that if somebody is going to
send out broken email I won't bother kludging around to read it no more than
I will go start X11 and fire off a 20 MB browser (Communicator) because some
moron doesn't know how to use HTML as it was originally designed. I'm 
personally appalled at the number of Cypherpunks using a version of PGP
which is completely incompatable with previous versions and outrageously
annoying to use unless you run Windows since it breaks everything which is
integrated.

>So the question arises, just how many pgp2.x users are there.  PGP Inc
>are pointing to the ratio of RSA keys to DSA/EG keys on keyservers as
>showing that pgp2.x users are in the minority.  However that ratio is
>something like 20,000 to 75,000, and I'm sure we've heard statistics
>in the past about there being literally millions of pgp 2.x users.
>One suspects that either many pgp 2.x users aren't using keyservers (I
>know several cypherpunks who have something against key servers and
>avoid them for perceived security or privacy reasons), and/or the
>pgp2.x user base is exaggerated.

You can't compare the user bases this way. 

First, 5.x integrates easily into several Windows mailers. This encourages
people to go get it and install it over 2.x. 

Second, 5.x integrates keyserver functions. 2.x does not. It's really no
work for 5.x users to submit a key to a keyserver, where it takes some
effort with 2.x. 

Third, most people probably have Windows installed already. They heard 5.x
was out, and didn't realize that it was so...well, broken. I know I fetched
5.x when it came out and installed it. I almost sent my key to the servers, 
then stopped to think about how the generated key doesn't work with 2.x. 

Fourth, if you're using Windows and communicating with other Windows users
there is really no reason not to use 5.x. People communicating with
classmates at universities and such are likely to go install 5.x because it's 
easy to use, send their key to the keyservers because they can, and inflate the
numbers.

Fifth, there are far more Windows users than users of other OSes. Windows
users have no reason not to upgrade, while other users have every reason
to stick with previous version.

I think the major problem with 5.x right now as it stands is the complete
lack of support from http://beta.pgp.com, the forced command-line
incompatabilities, and the lack of a stable multiplatform version. Add to
that the CMR debacle. 

Now in defense of PGP 5.x I do like the keyserver integration, expiry dates
on keys, and some of the other features. I like how it integrates with the
mailers. 

This entire thing makes me think of a web site which checks your browser and
OS. If you aren't running what the author likes, it tells you that you suck,
you're a moron, you're behind the times, you're using an inferior operating
system, and then doesn't show you the data. This is analogous to what PGP 
Inc. has done. This compatability thing could have very easily been avoided.

Face it, PGP Inc. screwed up. I think it's ultimately going to be the job of
Cypherpunks outside of the Land of the Freeh to clean up their mess.

Has anyone considered hacking up 2.6.xi to handle the new format? It would
have to be saner than 5.x is at this point. I would try, but I'm in the Land 
of the Freeh where you put your backside on the line to write any crypto 
software at all.

Ah, I love America.

CompatabilityMonger

From wabe at smart.net  Sat Nov  1 10:42:18 1997
From: wabe at smart.net (wabe)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:42:18 +0800
Subject: 
Message-ID: <01bce70b$eb196da0$c27f61ce@dave>

yeah, so ABC has an absolutly discusting thing last night
(was that 20/20) that I watched for almost 20 minutes,
in which they actually showed the "raptists" (he met
and had sex? with a fifteen year old girl.)  

Who even meets girls on the internet?  Then there was a
proto-hacker who shut down the porn chat rooms on Aol.
(I commend him, if for nothing else, than for developing
software that shuts down parts of AOL. :>)   Anyways,
Mr. Protohacker actually cried on the camera, because he
was raped at age 4, and he couldn't believe we let
those pornographers on the internet to spread
their web of filth.

When TV gets into the war against the Internet, it 
scares me.  I don't want a war between the bible belt
and the technocrats...

_______________________________________
-wabe

From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Nov  1 10:45:23 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:45:23 +0800
Subject: Tim's AK47 is a BB gun
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I wrote:
> 
> ---
> 
> The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo (7.62x29,
> as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles chambering this popular
> round).
> 
> ---
> 
>  Before you rush to correct me, I _meant_ to write "7.62x39" of course.
> 
> 
> (A round used by the Chinese, Soviet, and East Bloc nations, and roughly
> equivalent to the American M-16 round, known either as the .223 or 5.56mm.
> The NATO "7.62" is in a longer case length. 7.62x54, as I recall. Known in
> America as .308.
> 

Just how is a 7.62mmxanything equivilent to a 5.56mm?

The cartridge you refer to is typically used in AK-47 and similar 
weapons. The bullet is the same diameter (7.62mm) as the NATO 7.62mm / 
.308 round, but the cartridge has a different length.

OrdnanceMonger

Advice of the day: "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY"

> --Tim May
> 
> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 

From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Nov  1 10:49:41 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:49:41 +0800
Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Along the lines of keeping a "throw away" handgun around ... keep a 
"throw away" computer.

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:11:33 -0500
> X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
> protocol
> To: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> Cc: bostic at bsdi.com
> Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:04:22 -0500
> From: glen mccready 
> Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2399
> X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> Precedence: list
> Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> 
> 
> Forwarded-by: Peter Tonoli 
> 
> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:02:58 -0500
> From: David Kennedy <76702.3557 at compuserve.com>
> Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
> 
> Approved: proff at suburbia.net
> 
> Cyber Allegations (AP US & World  21 Oct 1997)
> 
> >   PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) -- A woman who said she was sexually assaulted by a
> > man she met through an on-line "chat room" has been ordered to turn over
> > her computer for examination by the defendant's lawyer.  Circuit Judge
> > Alice Gilbert issued the order Oct. 8 after the defendant said another
> > computer user told him that the woman had bragged on-line -- in a chat
> > room called "Man Haters" -- about making up the story.  The woman was
> > also ordered to reveal her password and on-line aliases.
> 
> o The accused, a 26-year old is alleged to have pulled a knife and attacked
> the victim after a date on Feb 28th.  Prosecutors have said they will
> appeal.
> 
> > "In my view, turning over somebody's computer these days is the same as
> > asking to go through their diary or mail," said prosecutor John
> > Pietrofesa.  Inspecting computer records from the opposing side, while
> > relatively new in criminal cases, has become common in civil cases, said
> > Michigan lawyer and computer law expert Robert A. Dunn.  In civil cases, a
> > judge will institute safeguards such as making both sides sign a
> > confidentiality agreement that information gleaned from computer records
> > will not be disclosed outside of court, he said.
> 
> Dave Kennedy CISSP, National Computer Security Assoc
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: 
> 
> 
> 

From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov  1 11:18:33 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:18:33 +0800
Subject: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711010306.VAA27799@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971101101925.006eb57c@popd.netcruiser>

At 09:06 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>>                    TECHNOLOGY 'SECURES' GUNFIRE IN THE CITY
>>                                        
>>      Secures October 31, 1997
>>      Web posted at: 4:44 p.m. EST (2144 GMT)
>>      
>>      ARLINGTON, Virginia (CNN) -- If you heard gunshots ring out in your
>>      neighborhood, you might be able to tell the general direction they
>>      came from. And if you happened to glance at your watch, you could
>>      say about what time. In maybe a minute, if you were so inclined, you
>>      could call the police to report it.
>>      
>>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
>>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
>>      location of gunshots.

This would be a network of microphones and processing stations which could
perform a reverse-GPS location analysis of sounds picked up by 3 or more
microphones.  (Sounds common to 2 microphones could be localized with a
lower degree of accuracy if directional microphone arrays are used.)  Yet
another instance of Big Brother technology that is of limited value to the
police.  Of course, this means that you will have the police responding to
every backfiring car, which will dampen their enthusiasm for responding
unless full-auto fire or a prolonged gunfight is overheard.  Of course, if
you have a silenced weapon and some cherry bombs with cigarette time-delay
fuses, you can use this system to docoy the police into the wrong
neighborhood.  Or if you confine yourself to single-shot assassinations
near busy streets, it will probably be written off as a vehicle backfire,
especially if you are doing a drive-by with a suppressed shotgun.  (Not
possible to silence completely, but certainly possible to quiet to the
point that it wouldn't attract undue notice along a busy street.)

In order for this system to be worth anything, it would have to be able to:
1.  Use voice recognition techniques to classify the type of weapon
(primarily useful for machine guns--it could evaluate the frequency
characteristics, rate of fire, etc. to distinguish between an AK-47 and an
UZI) sufficiently well to distinguish between small-arms fire, fireworks
(cherry bombs, M-80's, etc) and vehicle backfires.

2.  Perform "scream analysis" to distinguish the typical screams of
children at play from those of gunshot victims.

3.  Monitor conversations throughout the coverage area.  A suspicious sound
preceded by a male voice saying "Give me your money, bitch" would be much
more interesting than one preceded by a revving engine.  This would have
the added benefits of allowing LEO's to track fugitives via the sound of
their footsteps, their breathing, vehicle engine sounds, etc., as well as
gathering voiceprint data from crimes in progress.

I think point 3 is the scariest.  A properly designed system could do
voiceprint analysis of almost every word spoken in public, tie the
conversations to the identities of the speakers, and archive the time,
location, content and participants of every spoken conversation for long
periods of time in a database that could be searched by keyword, speaker
identity, time, and/or location.  The following searches could be done:

1.  "I want a list of everyone who uttered the words 'buy' and 'crack' in
the same sentence between 2100 and 0330 hours within 500 feet of 123 Maple
Drive between August 7 and December 5."

2.  "I want a list of all participants in conversations with Citizen-Unit
754-35-9710 which included the phrase 'BATF agent' in the last 6 months.

3.  "I want a map of Citizen-Unit 754-35-9710's movements for the last 2
weeks."

4.  "I want to see the movement history of all '96 Ford Escorts with a
misfire on cylinder #1."

5.  "I want the identities of everyone involved in the assault that
happened at the corner of Maple and Main at 1752 hours yesterday.

The Big Brother potential of such a system should be obvious.  What is
really scary is that such a system could be built mostly with currently
existing hardware, and at most a few man-years of software development.  If
each node in the network performs its own speech to text conversion and
archiving, and coordinates with a central voiceprint ID server, (which
could also provide the sync signal that the nodes would use to
cross-reference between nodes to locate sounds) each node could consist of
a Pentium 200 with some specialized audio signal processing cards and 15-20
GB of storage.  The only really new thing required would be an .AVI-style
format for storing MPEG audio, a text transcript of said audio (which would
need to include keywords for gunshots, passing vehicles, and other events
of interest), and location coordinates (updated on a second to second
basis) which could be indexed for reasonably efficient searching.

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From vcarlos35 at juno.com  Sat Nov  1 11:18:55 1997
From: vcarlos35 at juno.com (vcarlos35 at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:18:55 +0800
Subject: New remailer in operation at CharmQuark@juno.com
Message-ID: <19971031.135402.3822.0.vcarlos35@juno.com>

Hi everyone,
I'm running an Type 1 (or Cypherpunks) Remailer at CharmQuark at juno.com,
using
GoddessHera's Juno Remailer ver 4.9, with nym capabilities turned on.
Send a message with subject "remailer-help" (No quotes) for more
information.

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 11:46:15 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:46:15 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711011925.UAA05261@basement.replay.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May said:
> The problem with the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, for
> you foreigners reading this) is that it is an agency designed solely to
> fight contraband and smuggling.
> 
> [...]
> The BATFis really an internal army, just like so many statist countries have.
> 
> This is why they're getting Blackhawk choppers, Bradley Fighting Vehicles,
> fully automatic weapons, and access to SIGINT and COMINT resources. In
> conjunction with the DEA, Customs, and other such agencies.

Some argue that things have to get a lot worse before they'll get better.
The media coverups and brainwashing will ensure that it has to get pretty
damn bad before Joe Shmoe is going to notice anything is amiss.  Perhaps to
the stage that he knows a few people who have first hand experience of
family members assasinated by storm-troopers "protecting" them from
themselves.

The BATFuckers are just one symptom.

A few more major BOOMs would accelerate the trend.

But just how bad is bad enough?  As bad as Stalins Russia?  What was it, 1
in 10 assasinated?  What sort of place would this be like to live in when
it gets that bad?  What is the likely replacement system going to be like,
what sort of government is going to arise out of that kind of mess?

Would a similar system fill the power vacuum, or would we be left with a
the desired anarchy.

I wonder.  There might be an argument for just laying low until
cryptoanarchy starves the bloated cancerous growth.

Amad3us

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQCVAwUBNFt6ffKMuKFNFivhAQHagwP8DiNphzTEBFIxjMfuk0GMoTaSwY4Etjyb
Q234GnFkf5iqWgRsDnNJWeiQzfli9EV+/5xA/eY80N+AQxbln6eFwkG8U9btMoqS
Y7NCNwU6tDSckAOSSPOtdikZBxrNclW7ZK0ueuuHvFZGx5ciWCUBbx6bcxzphmhl
bWPRWC/asbc=
=I0Qy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0Pg==
=6dKS
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Nov  1 12:16:30 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:16:30 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711010114.TAA26954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711012006.UAA02716@server.test.net>

Jim Choate  writes:
> Adam Back  wrote:
> > The real problem as I see it with democracy is that not only do your
> > neighbours get to vote to have you locked up for something which is
> > none of their business, and has no conceivable effect up on them; but
> > they actually get to vote for you to be charged for the "service" of
> > being locked up to protect you from yourself.
> 
> Exactly what kind of democracy are you speaking of? Sounds like you are
> lumping them all into one big bucket, 

I figure it's a reasonable summary of a lot of democracies right now.

> If so, please be so kind as to demonstrate how a representative,
> constitutional, and majority democracy are the same? And for the
> record, we have a constitutional representative democracy.

Didn't say they were "the same".  But they do share a characteristic:
distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
laws on thought crimes.

> Personaly, I figure you must be one of those folks with a cognitive
> disfunction. What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not 
> understand?

I understand it, but US politicians either don't, or don't care and
largely ignore the constitution.  What does it matter whether I
understand it or not?  Your constitution says you can own and carry
guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
the constitution?

> > The wild west was better than this state of affairs -- people didn't
> > have the energy or inclination to waste their own resources being nosy
> > parkers, and those that did were apt to wind up full of lead.
> 
> Boy, you history is simply fucked. If you seriosly think the west was like
> television you should spend more time reading books and period newspapers
> and less time looking at the boob-tube. 

I don't own a TV, and so don't watch much (by choice -- it's mostly
garbage); printed mass media is a bit better, but not that much.

> At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated
> with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media
> and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking
> facts straight.

I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was low.
The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
neighbours what they could think.

> Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run
> around having gun fights all the time.

Right!

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:06:10 GMT
> From: Adam Back 
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate  writes:
> > 
> > Exactly what kind of democracy are you speaking of? Sounds like you are
> > lumping them all into one big bucket, 
> 
> I figure it's a reasonable summary of a lot of democracies right now.

What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of democracies?

> > If so, please be so kind as to demonstrate how a representative,
> > constitutional, and majority democracy are the same? And for the
> > record, we have a constitutional representative democracy.
> 
> Didn't say they were "the same".

No, but you certainly imply it with your broad brush.

> But they do share a characteristic:
> distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
> redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
> micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
> laws on thought crimes.

Again, demostrate your assertion(s).

Who? What? When? Where? Why? How?

> > Personaly, I figure you must be one of those folks with a cognitive
> > disfunction. What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not 
> > understand?
> 
> I understand it, but US politicians either don't, or don't care and
> largely ignore the constitution.  What does it matter whether I
> understand it or not?

If you don't understand it you can't use it, effectively or otherwise.

>  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> the constitution?

No, my responce is prove your assertions. Explain to me why you believe
these are valid views and why they provide a more usable environment for
understanding what is going on then others.

> > > The wild west was better than this state of affairs -- people didn't
> > > have the energy or inclination to waste their own resources being nosy
> > > parkers, and those that did were apt to wind up full of lead.
> > 
> > Boy, you history is simply fucked. If you seriosly think the west was like
> > television you should spend more time reading books and period newspapers
> > and less time looking at the boob-tube. 
> 
> I don't own a TV, and so don't watch much (by choice -- it's mostly
> garbage); printed mass media is a bit better, but not that much.

Nice side step.

> > At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated
> > with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media
> > and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking
> > facts straight.
> 
> I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was low.

No, you said *nothing* about murder rate. What you did say was that back in
the old days people ran around killing those who bothered them. Which isn't
true either.

> The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> neighbours what they could think.

Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?
Demonstrate your point.

From ericm at lne.com  Sat Nov  1 12:46:02 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:46:02 +0800
Subject: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971101101925.006eb57c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199711012030.MAA03169@slack.lne.com>

Jonathan Wienke writes:
> 
> ----==--=----===--===--==---==-====--==--=-=----=-
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> At 09:06 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >Forwarded message:
> >
> >>                    TECHNOLOGY 'SECURES' GUNFIRE IN THE CITY
> >>                                        
> >>      Secures October 31, 1997
> >>      Web posted at: 4:44 p.m. EST (2144 GMT)
> >>      
> >>      ARLINGTON, Virginia (CNN) -- If you heard gunshots ring out in your
> >>      neighborhood, you might be able to tell the general direction they
> >>      came from. And if you happened to glance at your watch, you could
> >>      say about what time. In maybe a minute, if you were so inclined, you
> >>      could call the police to report it.
> >>      
> >>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
> >>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
> >>      location of gunshots.
> 
> This would be a network of microphones and processing stations which could
> perform a reverse-GPS location analysis of sounds picked up by 3 or more
> microphones.  (Sounds common to 2 microphones could be localized with a
> lower degree of accuracy if directional microphone arrays are used.)  Yet
> another instance of Big Brother technology that is of limited value to the
> police.  Of course, this means that you will have the police responding to
> every backfiring car, which will dampen their enthusiasm for responding
> unless full-auto fire or a prolonged gunfight is overheard.

They've been testing this in the city I live in.  The police got
the company who makes it to set it up as a demo.

There's a significant area of town in which most of the residents
are mexican, and they have a habit of firing guns in the air on
important holidays.  The gunshot locator was installed primarily for
tracking down such shooters.

It turns out that it doesn't work very well- when the demo came up or
review, the police said that they didn't want to buy the system, because
it can't tell the difference between a gunshot and a car backfire and
the cops were wasting time searching for non-existent 'gunfire'.

There was an outcry from the citizenry- evidently the gunshot locator
made them "feel safer" although even the cops claim its ineffective.
The sheeple prevailed, and the city council coughed up the money to buy it.

-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5

From mnuck at umr.edu  Sat Nov  1 13:06:39 1997
From: mnuck at umr.edu (Matthew Nuckolls)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:06:39 +0800
Subject: cute.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19971101145349.14850@ultra7.umr.edu>

Warning: The following message is apolitical.

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[snip]

> I wonder.  There might be an argument for just laying low until
> cryptoanarchy starves the bloated cancerous growth.
> 
> Amad3us
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> iQCVAwUBNFt6ffKMuKFNFivhAQHagwP8DiNphzTEBFIxjMfuk0GMoTaSwY4Etjyb
> Q234GnFkf5iqWgRsDnNJWeiQzfli9EV+/5xA/eY80N+AQxbln6eFwkG8U9btMoqS
> Y7NCNwU6tDSckAOSSPOtdikZBxrNclW7ZK0ueuuHvFZGx5ciWCUBbx6bcxzphmhl
> bWPRWC/asbc=
> =I0Qy
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
> 4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
> ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
> tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0Pg==
> =6dKS
> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

--
Matthew Nuckolls
mnuck at umr.edu

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Nov  1 13:37:15 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:37:15 +0800
Subject: pgp5.x bashing (Re: [SURVEY] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711012117.VAA03414@server.test.net>

Anonymous writes:
> >The question has come up on ietf-open-pgp as to how important it is
> >for the OpenPGP standard to support backwards compatibility with
> >pgp2.x.
> 
> Very. 5.x right now is nothing but annoying. I can understand
> wanting to use the new algorithms. However if the authors want to do
> that and literally force people into upgrading then they need to
> make sure that every platform which had a version of 2.x has a
> version of 5.x available, and they need to stop breaking *every*
> script and program which calls PGP. If they release a version of PGP
> for one platform before they do others and the new version is
> incompatable with the old for all intents and purposes, they're just
> feeding OS wars, frustration, and hostility.

I think it is somewhat understandable that the windows and mac
versions work well before the unix versions, even if painful.  The way
that `make install' over-writes your pgp2.x binaries is mildly
annoying also.  (And the way the binary can't handle being renamed to
pgp5 -- insists on being called pgp which makes it more difficult to
have it coexist).

(An aside: I understand the linux version (that is if you use the unix
version under linux) is supposed to be free for any use (even
commercial) at least that's what Phil Zimmermann said sometime back --
this was to humor a Richard Stallman.)

> >The IETF generally likes to steer clear of patented algorithms as
> >MUSTs in standards.  This encourages implementations, etc.
> >(Personally I'm pretty keen on this point, though I would like more
> >backwards compatible pgp5.x implementations -- I've already received
> >emails I can't read without resorting to the pgp5 command line app,
> >which doesn't work with my mailer integrated system.)
> 
> That's exactly my situation. I figure, however, that if somebody is going to
> send out broken email I won't bother kludging around to read it no more than
> I will go start X11 and fire off a 20 MB browser (Communicator) because some
> moron doesn't know how to use HTML as it was originally designed. I'm 
> personally appalled at the number of Cypherpunks using a version of PGP
> which is completely incompatable with previous versions and outrageously
> annoying to use unless you run Windows since it breaks everything which is
> integrated.

Hmm.  It's not _completely_ incompatible, it's only broken.  If the
pgp5.x user uses an RSA key it works ok.  So people who want to
interoperate should generate two keys, one DSA/EG pair, and one RSA
key.  Use RSA for talking to pgp2.x, and DSA/EG for talking to 5.x.
(Or use RSA for everything, but 5.x has some security advantages
(better 0xdeadbeef resistance, no fingerprint spoofing problem,
separate signature and encryption keys, key expiry, etc)).

Problem is pgp5.x doesn't automate this.  It could.  It doesn't I
think because they are trying to get people to move away from RSA,
also perhaps (speculation here) because they are trying to get you to
pay for the new version.  (Though there are still freeware versions,
commercial users will need to switch, and some people may pay so they
get tech. support, etc.)

I figure a more friendly way for pgp5.x to behave would be to generate
both sorts of key (RSA and DSA/EG) and automatically do the right
thing depending on public key type of person being communicated with.

> I think the major problem with 5.x right now as it stands is the complete
> lack of support from http://beta.pgp.com, the forced command-line
> incompatabilities, 

I wouldn't say this is "forced", more that they haven't gotten to it
yet due to time pressure.  It's probably quite fiddly to get right.

> and the lack of a stable multiplatform version. Add to that the CMR
> debacle.

Uh yeah, well you won't get any arguments from me on the CMR front;
CMR is basically clipper VI (or whatever the clipper version is now).

> Face it, PGP Inc. screwed up. I think it's ultimately going to be the job of
> Cypherpunks outside of the Land of the Freeh to clean up their mess.

If you're interested, watch www.systemics.com, and enigma
http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/I.Brown/; presently they'll add pgp5.x
compatibility.  enigma and systemics cryptix is in _java_, you can't
get much more portable than that.  enigma works with any configurable
SMTP / POP3 MUA (netscape, eudora (I presume), etc)

> Has anyone considered hacking up 2.6.xi to handle the new format? It
> would have to be saner than 5.x is at this point. I would try, but
> I'm in the Land of the Freeh where you put your backside on the line
> to write any crypto software at all.

Probably someone will do this if the CMR debacle carries on.  I have
already heard some speculation on an alternative source tree branching
off from pgp2.6.x.

Watch ietf-open-pgp too, it'll be interesting to see what happens if
the long waited for draft from PGP includes CMR.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

More proof that the PGP folks have some kind of alterior motive.

Translation: They created a software package which purposefully breaks the
previous free versions of that package. Then they release a development kit
for that package with outrageous licensing fees. 

Welcome to the new PGP Inc.

>First, PGPsdk has been released:

>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/

>The bad news:  the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
>freeware or shareware applications using it.  Here's an example of the
>licensing:

>License Plan #1

>                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
>                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
>royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
>server)

>Add Certificate Server Integration:
>                                          $5,000 advance on royalties

>Support/Upgrades
>                            (includes email support by a trained
>                            developer support technician)
>                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments

From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov  1 14:00:32 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:00:32 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <036a4cbae9aea71936796fe72e12643b@anon.efga.org>

More proof that the PGP folks have some kind of alterior motive.

Translation: They created a software package which purposefully breaks the
previous free versions of that package. Then they release a development kit
for that package with outrageous licensing fees. 

Welcome to the new PGP Inc.

>First, PGPsdk has been released:

>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/

>The bad news:  the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
>freeware or shareware applications using it.  Here's an example of the
>licensing:

>License Plan #1

>                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
>                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
>royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
>server)

>Add Certificate Server Integration:
>                                          $5,000 advance on royalties

>Support/Upgrades
>                            (includes email support by a trained
>                            developer support technician)
>                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 14:04:19 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:04:19 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711012145.WAA19449@basement.replay.com>

##
In-reply-to: <19971101145349.14850 at ultra7.umr.edu> (message from Matthew
	Nuckolls on Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:53:49 -0600)
Subject: Re: cute.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Matthew Nuckolls says
> Warning: The following message is apolitical.
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> > mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
> > ...
> > =6dKS
> > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>
> What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
> channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. 

The purpose is to create a persistent nym.  The signature, and public key
ensures that you know that this message is from the same person as you were
attempting to nit pick :-]

> I can't verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since
> you're anonymous.

True.  So it's only as good as the keys you might fetch from a keyserver
that you have no connection to in the web of trust.

You aren't supposed to link it to my True Name.

All that can be done is to get a signature from a timestamp server, and a
signature from Bill Stewart's nym key signing service.

I don't think there are any timestamp servers which provide key signatures.

Anyone want to start one?

This is important because it prevents someone else from generating more
keys with the same userID, such as happened with Tim May's blacknet key.
The only protection I have against that is the public record of my key
being posted to cypherpunks.  The http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
archive helps as a public record of first publishing of a key with this
userID.

A timestamp service signature on my key would be a better solution.

Amad3us

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQCVAwUBNFugu/KMuKFNFivhAQEJUwP7BUCoER9V60RDWQHLRNB1tGudDwWtQsRy
lnZJuI+VK9ljr5ze6O8b7/3WLItSqxyd4o+yyf/hx7SARqyZ1BV6KEljUXe7i3RQ
4Dy5H7/E+hZe9B4cN9OYs8A2oAcLKs5fIYSKqyEado6+IL4G9YrDTNmz28z/flmY
kvfVsPWKk7w=
=oXSI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0PokAlQMFEDRbjMPy
jLihTRYr4QEB38ED/1P9L2yLURl5B2GJok3eIf6EnF1ahFxSK7wuK++YfKRKb3Ku
oPTzwSXH+92PZX28dpC+aYu8Qb0dMSCk4Cadn9cxz4n42u509JU4z0o897lB4u2I
TxV3YKbBAQSv/jZ/Gq8drdFtemQXUPigNL6IjDAPc/REiHv7IZNKAniSBo1P
=N8Gg
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 14:07:14 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:07:14 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711012202.QAA01722@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:36:05 -0500
> From: Anonymous 
> Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free

> >License Plan #1
> 
> >                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
> >                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
> >royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
> >server)
> 
> >Add Certificate Server Integration:
> >                                          $5,000 advance on royalties
> 
> >Support/Upgrades
> >                            (includes email support by a trained
> >                            developer support technician)
> >                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments
> 

Hmmm, will have to rethink suggesting any PGP based products to my customers
now. I simply refuse to pay anybody any percentage of my product revenues
simply because I use their tool. I buy a SDK for a flat fee like I buy a
book, screwdriver, or a car. I can't imagine Black & Decker wanting a
percentage of the house sale simply because the carpenter used their hammers
and saws. Ford or Chevy wanting to see my income statement each year so they
can figure out how much I owe them because I drive their brand of vehicle to
my customers sites...yeah right.

$25k?...PGP Inc.....Get a clue. Hell, at those kinds of license fees I can
afford to develop my own libraries.

What I do with it and how much money I make with it is my income alone
(minus taxes) *unless* they want to cover some percentage of my business
costs (which I don't want).

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From pooh at efga.org  Sat Nov  1 14:14:20 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:14:20 +0800
Subject: cute.
In-Reply-To: <199711011925.UAA05261@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971101165942.0365b498@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

At 02:53 PM 11/1/97 -0600, Matthew Nuckolls wrote:
>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

I don't think the message in question allows you to verify the state issued
id of the key owner, but it does allow you to verify that Amad3us's
message, and all similarly signed messages belong to the same person or
group .

I don't see any need for a key to be traceable to any specific person who
is in fact some particular natural person.  It seems to me that the fact
the message signature is good (I didn't check it) would be tend to prove he
is the owner of the key, since he can write messages with it.  Who he is on
his birth certificate and driver's license are beside the point.

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Nov  1 14:19:50 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:19:50 +0800
Subject: democracy?!
In-Reply-To: <199711012037.OAA01218@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711012206.WAA04285@server.test.net>

Jim Choate  writes:
> What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of
> democracies?

This is getting kind of repetitive.  Perhaps you could provide a
counter example to disprove my claim that democracies result in more
petty privacy and freedom invasive laws than would be the case with a
pure market anarchy (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
to consider as a comparison).  Do you have a democracy in mind which
doesn't result in lots thought crimes and other "crimes" which are so
far removed from normal free market schelling points.  It's just a
natural tendency of a democracy.

> > But they do share a characteristic:
> > distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
> > redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
> > micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
> > laws on thought crimes.
> 
> Again, demostrate your assertion(s).
> 
> Who? What? When? Where? Why? How?

Who?  What?  Current democracices.  When?  Now.  Why?  Market
distortion.  How?  Politicians brokering legalised mass theft and
market distortion for game theoretic reasons.

> >  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> > guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> > can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> > the constitution?
> 
> No, my responce is prove your assertions. 

You prove your assertion: are you saying there are no gun controls in
the US?

> Explain to me why you believe these are valid views 

because they are a statement of readily observable reality?

> and why they provide a more usable environment for understanding
> what is going on then others.

What others?  Give me some other views to compare for realistic value.

> > > At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated
> > > with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media
> > > and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking
> > > facts straight.
> > 
> > I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was low.
> 
> No, you said *nothing* about murder rate. 

You're right, what I said was:

: (Crime rate was reportedly pretty damn low too.)

murder rates were low to as far as I understood.  That's what I was
thinking when I wrote that.  (Of course I can't complain about your
statement above, you're right ... I didn't write what I was
thinking :-)

> What you did say was that back in the old days people ran around
> killing those who bothered them. Which isn't true either.

That bit was a statement of a belief that few people would be inclined
to invade someones privacy and attempt to impose sanctions for what
they viewed as thought crimes.  It takes governments or religions to
do this kind of thing, individuals aren't likely to -- the natural
schelling points would be far less invasive.  My thought was that if
some crazy person went invading peoples houses telling them how to
behave that that crazy person would have a decreased life expectancy
:-)

> > The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> > neighbours what they could think.
> 
> Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?
> Demonstrate your point.

I say: there were less laws in 1897 US than 1997 US.

Tell me: do you refute that claim?

How often do laws get repealed?  How often do new laws get bought in?
New laws are a lot more common.  Politicians want to produce new laws
because it makes it look like they're doing something useful to the
untrained eye.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199711012215.OAA17651@netcom4.netcom.com>

the key battles will be waged in the courtrooms after any
laws get passed. frankly, I admit I am stunned with the
seeming ease with which various bad laws get passed. in my
youthful naivete I would have thought that an unconstitutional 
bill, or one with the slightest doubt, wouldn't even be
remotely *considered*. 

but what the last crypto bill 
runaround showed rather shockingly was that it is 
horrifyingly easy for bad bills to make it far into 
the legislative process, and a kind of frankensteinan
process can occur in which a bill ends up being manipulated
far beyond or to the direct opposite of 
its original intentions. moreover, virtually no congressmen
any more care about whether a law is constitutional--
it's a concept that is trampled underfoot in all the lobbying and
powermongering.

hence, I think we need to rely more on the courtroom-- it's
the only "language" that bureacrats understand. extremely 
expensive, but more effective. it forces us to put our money
where our mouths are. "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance"
and a lot of cash as well. the PRZ case proves the public
can support such a campaign. also tactics
as used by Softwar such as the FOIA attack approach. 

I predict that there are going to be major lawsuits of interest
to the cypherpunks in the near future. the telecom industry
is dragging its feet over implementing the orwellian FBI
digital wiretap law, last I heard. this is a big story that
Wired et. al. have not noticed imho. the telecom industry
from what I can tell considers it a bureacratic nightmare and
stalling as much as possible. just wait until it gets to the
point they feel like turning loose their armies of pit-bull
lawyers. these are companies that consider litigation virtually
part of their job description.

so the major GAK lawsuit might go like this. joe sixpack
uses a GAK system but "superencrypts" on top of it. fbi
gets a warrant but cannot read his mail, tries to prosecute
him on "obstruction of justice" or whatever, unrelated to
any actual crime. joe sixpack sues the FBI for violation
of the first amendment rights. it would be a great spectacle.

increasingly I think we should not be so alarmed when
orwellian laws pass. we need to fight them tooth and nail
in the beginning, but in many ways a court victory such as
with the CDA can be far more compelling to the government
bureacrats than lobbying.

and of course there is the "guerilla tactics" that everyone
here is so fond of advocating, which I think have some
appropriateness in some forms. even Gandhi advocated
"widespread civil disobedience"

From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 15:35:13 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:35:13 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:06:03 GMT
> From: Adam Back 
> Subject: Re: democracy?!
> 
> Jim Choate  writes:
> > What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of
> > democracies?
> 
> This is getting kind of repetitive. 

I agree, I keep asking for your examples and proof and you keep avoiding
providing them. You should consider being a politician or a lawyer. It's a
real pity you can't seem to approach this discussion in good faith and with
a sense of open analysis.

> Perhaps you could provide a
> counter example to disprove my claim that democracies result in more
> petty privacy and freedom invasive laws than would be the case with a
> pure market anarchy

Pure market anarchy? What the hell is a pure market? I know what a free
market is. Define it first. Explain how it, without an explicit
bill of rights, will protect my rights? Explain how we don't end up with a
Microsoft that owns everything which effectively reduces to a commercial
communism? Where are my 'exit' choices then? What in the world would
motivate such an entity to provide me with the resources to be a direct
competitor, something clearly not in its best interest for long-term
survival? How will others learn the technology and its applications outside
the purvue of these economic regulatory entities. The unlimited expansion of
the rail-roads in the 1800's is a excellent simili for comparison for both
what such a system would be like as well as the major problems it *doesn't*
address. Taminy Hall ring any bells? There was a free market political
system if there ever was one; pay me and I'll do it for you, don't and you 
can freeze in hell. A more modern example is the history of the
telecommunications companies which even after being broken up have now
re-combined so that we in effect only have 3 domestic tel-comm providers, and
they are discussing how to combine their resources. Further explain why such
a system will guarantee that my views will at least be addressed at some
level and not relegated a priori to a trash-heap because it goes against the
market analysis of some bunch of bean-counters? Who do I go to for
resolution of claims against these entities, the self-same entities? You
call that justice, equality, or even representation? Explain why and how such
a economic based system will guarantee my right to free speech or even to run
a small business which I currently do when it is clear that I am in open
competition with the very entities which provide me the resources to make the
money? What is the economic motivation for the resource controlling entities
to support my freedoms when it reduces their income? Explain how your system
prevents economic black-balling? Another implication is that we will see more
of the sort of business stategies implimented by PGP Inc. (for example) where
they want a percentage of your income *without* accepting a percentage of the
risk, economic tyrany is tyrany just the same. What recourse do I have if the
monopolies which arise in such a system decide that the services or resources
I need won't be provided? Am I then supposed to just calmly accept becoming
some prole for some zaibatsu? What happens when those monopolies decide that
if they work together they can further streamline the market, and my going to 
church or taking a vacation goes against those business requirements?

It sounds like you are supporting Hirshleifer who says:

"The mere fact of low income under anarchy... of itself provides no clear
indication as to what is likely to happen next."

[Personly, Hirshleifer is an idiot who apparently doesn't hang out on the
wrong side of the tracks and therefore has no clue as to what motivates
the poor or stupid.]

Which in effect breaks down into one of two results for individuals (which
all free market anarchists admit openly) who don't have sufficient income
to buy their indipendance and their say:

1.  they devote a great deal of effort to fighting to gain control over
    resources.

or 

2.  they capitulate to some other party and turn over their resources
    for food and shelter.

History would argue that people will accept neither of these as a solution
to day-to-day living. Economists should stay out of politics. It's one of
the reasons that at no point in either the Declaration of Indipendance or
the Constitution that businesses are given rights are even given
consideration except in regards of taxation of inter-state commerce. People
should have seperation of government and religion and that includes the
worship of wealth.

> (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
> to consider as a comparison).

If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore? If it provided such
a superior governmental system providing the maximum return on investment
why did it go away? Why did they instead elect to go with a king? Futher,
explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without demonstrating
the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual democracies such as
ancient Greek ran into? It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of
people who are related, share world-models and have limited resources and
quite another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not thousands 
of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?

>  Do you have a democracy in mind which
> doesn't result in lots thought crimes and other "crimes" which are so
> far removed from normal free market schelling points.  It's just a
> natural tendency of a democracy.

Thought crimes and such are not a result of any political system but a
result of the psychology of people. Please be so kind as to demonstrate
(along with my previous questions I am still waiting on) how a political
system effects the basic psychological development of the participants.
Further, explain how the belief in the resolving power of money is any
different than the resolving power of Buddha? You seem to be claiming that
if we pray to the all mighty dollar all will be right with the world.

> > > But they do share a characteristic:
> > > distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
> > > redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
> > > micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
> > > laws on thought crimes.
> > 
> > Again, demostrate your assertion(s).
> > 
> > Who? What? When? Where? Why? How?
> 
> Who?  What?  Current democracices.  When?  Now.  Why?  Market
> distortion.  How?  Politicians brokering legalised mass theft and
> market distortion for game theoretic reasons.

You seriously expect any reasonable person to be satisfied with such a
side-step?

And in case you hadn't realized it, the entire concept of free-market is a
result of those same game theories. Are you claiming that such free market
based systems will abandon game theory when it clearly provides insight into
how those free markets operate?

> > >  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> > > guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> > > can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> > > the constitution?
> > 
> > No, my responce is prove your assertions. 
> 
> You prove your assertion: are you saying there are no gun controls in

The simply fact that one has a constitution that guarantees certain rights is
*not* a guarantee that others won't find those rights threatening and want to
take them away (see Hirshleifer's two alternatives above). And your assertion
is that if we go to a free market anarchy then we no longer have to worry
about anyone telling us what we can and can't do? Please be so kind as to
demonstrate why a free market anarchy will prohibit monopolistic
organizations who would be just as threatened by armed individuals as any
other centralized organization?

> > Explain to me why you believe these are valid views 
> 
> because they are a statement of readily observable reality?

Where do I observe them? Give examples. Whose reality? Are you seriously
claiming that there is one absolute reality?

> > What you did say was that back in the old days people ran around
> > killing those who bothered them. Which isn't true either.
> 
> That bit was a statement of a belief that few people would be inclined
> to invade someones privacy and attempt to impose sanctions for what
> they viewed as thought crimes.  It takes governments or religions to
> do this kind of thing, individuals aren't likely to

Governments and religions *ARE* people. There are times where I think you
have said the stupidist thing possible and then you keep typing. Individuals
are the ones who killed the Jews, put pepper spray in the eyes of
demonstrators, and just about everything else that gets done.

> > > The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> > > neighbours what they could think.
> > 
> > Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?
> > Demonstrate your point.
> 
> I say: there were less laws in 1897 US than 1997 US.
> 
> Tell me: do you refute that claim?

I don't know, never looked at the numbers *AND* it isn't my job to refute
it. *IT IS* your job to prove it since it is *YOUR* claim and apparently has
some relevance to your thesis' validity. The number of laws at any given time
is irrelevant and immaterial to my position (nice attempt at a straw man).
It is plain stupidity to make claims and not have a clue as to the reality.
I shure as hell won't be asking people to put their lives in my hands unless
I could address such issues in a manner that they would feel comfortable with.
Gut feelings are almost always wrong. The mere fact that you feel that we
should take such claims at face value is a clear indication of what kind of
worth you place in others. You believe yourself to be an angel apparently.

Oh, and for the record. Studies of deaths during the 1800's indicate that
the vast majority were accidental self-inflicted gunshot wounds, far more
than the Indians or other 3rd parties inflicted combined.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 15:49:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:49:05 +0800
Subject: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711012339.AAA04637@basement.replay.com>

Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> At 09:06 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
> >>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
> >>      location of gunshots.

> In order for this system to be worth anything, it would have to be able to:
...
> 3.  Monitor conversations throughout the coverage area.  A suspicious sound
> preceded by a male voice saying "Give me your money, bitch" would be much
> more interesting than one preceded by a revving engine.  This would have
> the added benefits of allowing LEO's to track fugitives via the sound of
> their footsteps, their breathing, vehicle engine sounds, etc., as well as
> gathering voiceprint data from crimes in progress.
> 
> I think point 3 is the scariest.  A properly designed system could do
> voiceprint analysis of almost every word spoken in public, tie the
> conversations to the identities of the speakers, and archive the time,
> location, content and participants of every spoken conversation for long
> periods of time in a database that could be searched by keyword, speaker
> identity, time, and/or location.  The following searches could be done:
> 
> 1.  "I want a list of everyone who uttered the words 'buy' and 'crack' in
> the same sentence between 2100 and 0330 hours within 500 feet of 123 Maple
> Drive between August 7 and December 5."
> 
> 2.  "I want a list of all participants in conversations with Citizen-Unit
> 754-35-9710 which included the phrase 'BATF agent' in the last 6 months.
> 
> 3.  "I want a map of Citizen-Unit 754-35-9710's movements for the last 2
> weeks."
...

  Jonathan has hit on a point which illustrates the danger of the
surveillance technologies that are _already_ in place, vis a vis,
the Internet.
  Something lost in the euphoria over the citizen's radical new 
ability to access information: Yahoo Search--"Posts by _me_."
is that the same technolgy, and more, is at the fingertips of
the proverbial 4 Horsemen AND (now for the _really_ bad news)
at the fingertips of "John Law, the Citizen's Friend."

  Sadly, "garbage in--garbage out" _has_ always, and _will_ always,
result(ed) in such inanities as Drug Counselors being 'rated' at
the same level as Drug Dealers when the computer spits out the
results of a badly structured "search for the _bad_guys_."
  Naturally, when the police mistakenly kick in the door of a 
Drug Counselor, it is always a 'regretable tragedy' when they
shoot holes in the ten year old boy in the hallway who is holding
an over-ripe banana which 'looked like a weapon.' (Almost a true
life example, told to me by a friend who left her career in law
enforcement because she was still in possession of a conscience 
which was capable of recognizing that children killed by those 
who are 'just following orders' are just as dead as the children
killed by those who are 'out of control.')
{The person in question 'pulled' her shot at the last moment, upon
 realizing she was about to murder a child with a banana. Because
 the banana "could have been a weapon," an investigation was not
 required for an officer firing upon an unarmed citizen.
 I regard this lady as a wonderful example of someone who has held
 themself to a higher standard than their government regulators and
 their peers. What is a shame is that someone who _should_ be the
 type of person charged with protecting us had to leave the system
 because there is no future for those who choose sanity, logic and
 humanity over 'following orders.'}

  If you stop to consider Jonathan's examples of (paraphrased),
"give me the names of every citizen in location 'A' at time 'B'
who has used the word 'normal' in an email in the last ten years,
etc., etc." in light of Internet search engine capabilities being
extended to such technologies as 'citizen physical location 
monitoring', 'voice recognition', 'DNA pattern analysis' (e.g. 
heriditary potential for violence, etc.), then the future may be 
very scary, indeed.

Think about this:
"Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the person who is reading this
post is the 'only' individual, out of over 20 million processed by
the Never Wrong Criminal Identification Compter System, who is in
the post reader's general location, today, has completed their
high school education and has a family member who has committed
murder in the last five generations."
(What? You claim you are not the _only_ person in New York City,
 with a high school education. Nice try, pal, but the computer is
 never wrong.)
"Although no murder has been committed yet, statistics show that
someone in that area will be, within the next two days, so I ask
that you return a verdict of 'Guilty of murder in the first degree'
and we will pick up and execute the reader of this post as soon
as a body turns up."

...in light of _this_:
A citizen was found guilty of murder by a jury, based on the slim
eyewitness testimony of a passerby who caught a fleeting glimpse
of the murderer, despite testimony from over a dozen people that
the defendant was, at the time of the murder, attending a wedding
thousands of miles away.
Some of those giving testimony did not even know the man prior to
meeting him at the wedding, and were in no way related to the man,
but the jury was still swayed by the prosecutor's claim that this
wide variety of law-abiding, average citizens were lying to try
and protect the defendant.

Do you have a great-great-grandfather who committed murder? Then 
you are, by heridity, a potential murderer. It's in your blood!
This is '10 points against' you. All of the kindness you have don
in your life does not count in your favor, because any fool can
see that it was done in an attempt to trick the jury.

> The Big Brother potential of such a system should be obvious.  What is
> really scary is that such a system could be built mostly with currently
> existing hardware, and at most a few man-years of software development.  If
> each node in the network performs its own speech to text conversion and
> archiving, and coordinates with a central voiceprint ID server, (which
> could also provide the sync signal that the nodes would use to
> cross-reference between nodes to locate sounds) each node could consist of
> a Pentium 200 with some specialized audio signal processing cards and 15-20
> GB of storage.  The only really new thing required would be an .AVI-style
> format for storing MPEG audio, a text transcript of said audio (which would
> need to include keywords for gunshots, passing vehicles, and other events
> of interest), and location coordinates (updated on a second to second
> basis) which could be indexed for reasonably efficient searching.

  Of course, Jonathan is a raving lunatic for suggesting these
outlandish
possibilities, much like the mentally unstable people who history
records
as believing that one day people would be able to send electromagnetic
waves through the atmosphere and have their images and voices appear on
machines in distant places.

  Seriously, history has shown that any technology capable of being used
for great evil _will_ be used for great evil.
  The reason that technology radically increases the ante in the game 
between good and evil is that if one 'evil' person is in control of
technology that ten million 'good' people do not have access to, then
the basic humanity or inhumanity of humankind, in general, is really
not an important part of the equation which will determine the future.
  (I challenge all other cypherpunks to a fistfight, the only rule 
being that I can use an Uzi, and you can't.)

  Remember...when all is said and done, my dad was an optomist.

George Orwelle Jr.

From judith at SABOTAGE.ORG  Sat Nov  1 16:00:46 1997
From: judith at SABOTAGE.ORG (Judith)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:00:46 +0800
Subject: french cypherpunks
Message-ID: <19970901014525.47385@damage.sabotage.org>

Hi there,

Are there any french cypherpunks or french
speaking canadian cypherpunks on this list ?

I have to discuss privacy on the net in french.
To read some articles on this subject would be very helpfull
to learn to use the right type of jargon: the dutch-french dictionary 
does not handle jargon of any type. 

Btw: did anybody scan their photo's of the HIP '97 (in this case
near the cypherpunkerstent-site) yet?
I couldn't find any.

Merci,

best regards,

Judith

From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov  1 16:04:43 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:04:43 +0800
Subject: cute.
In-Reply-To: <19971101145349.14850@ultra7.umr.edu>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 2:59 PM -0700 11/1/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>At 02:53 PM 11/1/97 -0600, Matthew Nuckolls wrote:
>>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.
>
>I don't think the message in question allows you to verify the state issued
>id of the key owner, but it does allow you to verify that Amad3us's
>message, and all similarly signed messages belong to the same person or
>group .
>
>I don't see any need for a key to be traceable to any specific person who
>is in fact some particular natural person.  It seems to me that the fact
>the message signature is good (I didn't check it) would be tend to prove he
>is the owner of the key, since he can write messages with it.  Who he is on
>his birth certificate and driver's license are beside the point.

I think Robert really "gets" it.

I have in the past been critical of some of his views, and suspected there
were things about crypto and rights he just didn't get.

But everything he says here is right on.

- --Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFu0tFK3AvrfAt9qEQJ10wCgwOVLTnlHyzfyPDq/Fce6O+XLz/IAn1FG
lx+DYDA83N0vKdkCSvTpAD9g
=W7Tc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Nov  1 16:42:28 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:42:28 +0800
Subject: Unlocking crypto-secrets Wired article
Message-ID: <199711020042.TAA27772@cti06.citenet.net>

>From: Dwight Arthur 
>To: "Dale R. Worley" 
>CC: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: Unlocking crypto-secrets Wired article

> I have no inside knowledge but picture yourself
> as a senator, really concerned about getting re-elected. Picture
> yourself looking at video of the victims of some terrorist act somewhere
> in the world, staggering out of some ruined building and expiring on
> camera. Then picture yourself hearing that if you vote the wrong way and
> this happens in the U.S. (or to U.S. citizens anywhere) your name will
> be in the papers as the reason that law enforcement was unable to
> prevent this. It's hard to argue.

And alsom maybe Jim Bell's stuff...  Does anybody have any knowledge or heard any 
rumors of Bell's essay circulating among political circles?

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C

From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sat Nov  1 17:10:11 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:10:11 +0800
Subject: cute.
Message-ID: <199711020051.QAA23884@sirius.infonex.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Amad3us wrote:
>Matthew Nuckolls says
>> What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>> channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. 
>
>The purpose is to create a persistent nym.  The signature, and public
>key ensures that you know that this message is from the same person
>as you were attempting to nit pick :-]

It has been my experience that it is more fun to operate a persistent
identity than to post unsigned and unverifiable messages.

Providing the key is at least a convenience for people who don't have
it already - it saved me a trip to the key server.

>> I can't verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since
>> you're anonymous.
>
>True.  So it's only as good as the keys you might fetch from a
>keyserver that you have no connection to in the web of trust.
>
>You aren't supposed to link it to my True Name.
>
>All that can be done is to get a signature from a timestamp server,
>and a signature from Bill Stewart's nym key signing service.

What would be really nice is if the mailing list machines time stamped
messages.

There was a discussion a little while ago suggesting that toad.com had
been compromised by people who were sowing dissension by partially
distributing certain messages.  Had toad signed all of its messages,
it would be possible to obtain evidence supporting this hypothesis
without relying entirely on the word of people we may not know.

Had somebody compromised toad, they would still have to correctly sign
messages.  Later it would have been possible to prove this had
occurred by comparing messages and signatures.

This would also prevent an attack where somebody forges mail from a
cypherpunks list machine to flush out identities.  If the attacker
sends a unique message to every person, he or she will be able to
break an identity if the message is replied to on the list.

>This is important because it prevents someone else from generating more
>keys with the same userID, such as happened with Tim May's blacknet key.
>The only protection I have against that is the public record of my key
>being posted to cypherpunks.  The http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
>archive helps as a public record of first publishing of a key with this
>userID.

I'm not sure a timestamp matters that much for "authenticating" your
key.  After all, you don't own "Amad3us", you own key 0x4D162BBE1.

If another "Amad3us" shows up, what matters if their string of posts
are worth reading, not whether they borrowed your handle.

It would cause confusion, but since the cypherpunks are so good at
slinging bits, we should be able to handle this.  It might even have
an advantage: reporters and secret police types will have a harder
time dealing with the cypherpunks without adopting some of our
technology and ideas and sharing them with others.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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XfFNOusz9Dkrhz0gearv/fbRb93GxXRejTK/Jo9sMJta8pWAm4d1Yg==
=5Loi
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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 17:24:35 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:24:35 +0800
Subject: Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw
Message-ID: <199711020120.TAA02325@einstein.ssz.com>

The fundamental flaw with the justification of a Free Market Anarchy and
also the fundamental condemnation of Democracy is that of taxation.

However, the theory of democracy does not in any way address the issues of
taxation, only how laws are made and what the boundaries on those laws are.
In fact, until about the first third of this century there was NO personal
taxation in this country at the federal level. Clear prima facia , and to use
Beck's verbage 'real', evidence that the assertion that personal taxation and
democracy are irrevocably wedded. Ask yourself, why is it that no free
market anarchist *ever* mentions commenality in humanity? Why do their have
inherent and implicit in their systems a class structure? They would have
you believe this is natural, it is not. Class structures are reflections of
the beliefs of the people, not some fundamental law of nature.

Furhermore, Free Market Anarchy does not address the issues of protection
from abuse. It does not recognize in any manner any mechanism for redress of
grievances unless you happen to be one of the few who controls the wealth.
It further assumes that those who don't have wealth will willingly take this
station in life as a given and simply work for those who do have wealth and
accept without resentment that they will forever be denied any sort of
opportunity to change their station in life except at the whim of the power
brokers. It further does not in any way address issues of life, liberty, or
pursuits of happines - only monetary wealth. It is clear that having wealth
does not in any manner guarantee any sort of empathy for others in the holder.
If anthing, history demonstrates that such 'lords of wealth' are pragmatic
about collecting wealth to the point of predation.

This argument from the specific to the general is fundamentaly flawed and
the conclusion suffers because of it.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. How that power is
obtained, by vote or specie, is irrelevant as clearly shown by history.

Some hold that the majority of the populace suffer taxation at the point of
a gun. This assertion is also false. There have historicaly been several
political parties which have promised to eliminate personal taxation. In
every case those parties could not control more than a truly minimal
percentage of the vote. Yes, people say taxation is too high, they do not
hold the assertion that taxes should be completely eliminated.

Free Market Anarchies are doomed to the same sort of death, and if ever
implimented the same sorts of abuse, as all other non-democratic systems.

Also, recognize that those who support such systems have a set of commen
character flaws. First, they can't differentiate the implimentation from the
theory of political systems. They would have you believe that if a given
implimentation of a system is flawed or broken than all systems of that ilk
are then broken or flawed. Clearly history does not support such assertions.
In short, they would throw the baby out with the bathwater. Secondly, these
in general are the sorts of people who find glee when they see a polic
officer run over in the street. Do you seriously believe that anyone this
cold and uncarring would not hesitate for an instant in putting pepper spray
in your eyes? Thirdly, they express a view which I call Theory X equality.
In short, as long as they are the ones making the profit, the fact that you
suffer for it, justly or not, is irrelevant and justified. In more prosaic
words, the ends *always* justifies the means. An assertion that history also
does not support.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 17:27:39 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:27:39 +0800
Subject: Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw (fwd) [correction]
Message-ID: <199711020123.TAA02381@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> From: Jim Choate 
> Subject: Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw
> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 19:20:20 -0600 (CST)

> The fundamental flaw with the justification of a Free Market Anarchy and
> also the fundamental condemnation of Democracy is that of taxation.
> 
> However, the theory of democracy does not in any way address the issues of
> taxation, only how laws are made and what the boundaries on those laws are.
> In fact, until about the first third of this century there was NO personal
> taxation in this country at the federal level. Clear prima facia , and to use
> Beck's verbage 'real', evidence that the assertion that personal taxation and
> democracy are irrevocably wedded.
                                  ^
                                  is false.

> Ask yourself, why is it that no free
> market anarchist *ever* mentions commenality in humanity? Why do their have
> inherent and implicit in their systems a class structure? They would have
> you believe this is natural, it is not. Class structures are reflections of
> the beliefs of the people, not some fundamental law of nature.
> 
> Furhermore, Free Market Anarchy does not address the issues of protection
> from abuse. It does not recognize in any manner any mechanism for redress of
> grievances unless you happen to be one of the few who controls the wealth.
> It further assumes that those who don't have wealth will willingly take this
> station in life as a given and simply work for those who do have wealth and
> accept without resentment that they will forever be denied any sort of
> opportunity to change their station in life except at the whim of the power
> brokers. It further does not in any way address issues of life, liberty, or
> pursuits of happines - only monetary wealth. It is clear that having wealth
> does not in any manner guarantee any sort of empathy for others in the holder.
> If anthing, history demonstrates that such 'lords of wealth' are pragmatic
> about collecting wealth to the point of predation.
> 
> This argument from the specific to the general is fundamentaly flawed and
> the conclusion suffers because of it.
> 
> Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. How that power is
> obtained, by vote or specie, is irrelevant as clearly shown by history.
> 
> Some hold that the majority of the populace suffer taxation at the point of
> a gun. This assertion is also false. There have historicaly been several
> political parties which have promised to eliminate personal taxation. In
> every case those parties could not control more than a truly minimal
> percentage of the vote. Yes, people say taxation is too high, they do not
> hold the assertion that taxes should be completely eliminated.
> 
> Free Market Anarchies are doomed to the same sort of death, and if ever
> implimented the same sorts of abuse, as all other non-democratic systems.
> 
> Also, recognize that those who support such systems have a set of commen
> character flaws. First, they can't differentiate the implimentation from the
> theory of political systems. They would have you believe that if a given
> implimentation of a system is flawed or broken than all systems of that ilk
> are then broken or flawed. Clearly history does not support such assertions.
> In short, they would throw the baby out with the bathwater. Secondly, these
> in general are the sorts of people who find glee when they see a polic
> officer run over in the street. Do you seriously believe that anyone this
> cold and uncarring would not hesitate for an instant in putting pepper spray
> in your eyes? Thirdly, they express a view which I call Theory X equality.
> In short, as long as they are the ones making the profit, the fact that you
> suffer for it, justly or not, is irrelevant and justified. In more prosaic
> words, the ends *always* justifies the means. An assertion that history also
> does not support.
> 
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    |
>    |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
>    |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
>    |                                                                    |
>    |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
>    |                                                                    | 
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
> 

From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Nov  1 18:26:50 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:26:50 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <199711020216.SAA06401@proxy4.ba.best.com>

At 05:02 PM 10/30/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
> Even if you were to use CMR, it is dumb, dumb, dumb, to allow the
> snoop key to remain after the message has passed the enforcer -- it
> should strip it off on the way out.

Unless, of course, the real intention of CMR is GMR.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com

From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Nov  1 18:28:04 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:28:04 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
Message-ID: <199711020216.SAA06135@proxy4.ba.best.com>

At 10:20 AM 10/30/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> Makes it easier for cops to see that you're not a threat,
> or that you are a threat.  If your underwear's not Kevlar,
> it's not contributing much to the process, and cops are
> probably more embarassed about beating up naked people.

Watch out for toilet plungers.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com

From srvce at micro-net.com  Sun Nov  2 10:58:04 1997
From: srvce at micro-net.com (srvce at micro-net.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:58:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hello, thought you should see this
Message-ID: <199711021857.NAA10961@candy.micro-net.net>

LEARN THE SECRET TO MAKING OVER $2750.00 A
WEEK, PART-TIME WITH YOUR HOME COMPUTER!

It's fun, it's rewarding, and it's easy.  This is so simple, most
children could do it!  All you need is a computer and E-Mail
address to begin making excellent money while relaxing in 
the comfort of your own home.  

All it takes is a couple hours a day, and you'll have more than 
$2750.00 arriving in your mailbox every week!  Right now there 
are only a few people around the country who know how to do 
this.  And these few people are having the greatest time of their 
lives while their computers make them a fortune.  They don't 
want anyone else to know how they're making all this money,
but we at Crown Industries have decided to let a few more
people in on the secret.  

Even if you are happy with your current job, you can use this 
system in your spare time to create a huge extra income.  And 
let us assure you this system is completely legal.  We are so 
sure anyone can make a fortune with this unique system, that 
we will even let you try it out for 30 days!  If you're not 100% 
satisfied, just send it back within 30 days for a full refund.  

Once you begin to see how easy it is to make money with your
computer, you will wish you had received this letter a long time 
ago.  Anyone can do this, and since very little of your time is 
required, you will have a lot more time to spend doing the things 
you have always wanted to do.

So take the first step toward financial freedom and order this 
powerful money making system today!  You'll be glad you did!

This offer will only be available for a limited time!  To insure 
you receive your copy, order today!

To receive your copy of our incredible computer money making 
system, along with a full 30 day money back guarantee, send 
a check or money order for $14.95 payable to:

Crown Industries
1630 North Main St. Suite# 310
Walnut Creek,  CA  94596

Allow 4-6 days for delivery

P.S.  You simply must see this to believe it.  Never in the 
history of America has it been possible to make this much 
money spending just a couple hours a day.  We guarantee 
that anyone can make more than $2750.00 a week, part-
time using our system and just one home computer or 
you get your money back!  

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Nov  1 19:27:54 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:27:54 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>

After seeing the intents of PGP Inc. with the
release of their new PGP that breaks the old
free versions, I have all but written them off 
as anything but the Enemy, and am waiting for
a public reply on the list by Tim May to make
it official.

But now what? Please someone answer my questions
about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
Is this so? Also, the direction they seem to be
heading is in providing more and more non-free
GAKked product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions
freeware? If so, can't others - a group of 
individuals - take that source code and build off
of that? Piss on these assholes and their licensing
fees. It was inevitable, anyway. They are a 
corporation after all, and the corporations are 
not on "our" sides.

I can see a scenario where government is impotent
and destroyed within 10 years. What will remain
and will be harder to eradicate are the corporations.
I don't think we should rely on corporate software
whenever possible, because it always comes with
an ulterior motive. Is there an effort to maintain
a version of PGP based on the free 2.x sources
that is not affiliateed with the fuckwads at 
PGP Inc.? If not, is it high time some of us 
began such an effort?

From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 19:44:24 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:44:24 +0800
Subject: LAPD reject surplus bayonets [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711020342.VAA02835@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

>                     LAPD REJECTS, RETURNS SURPLUS BAYONETS
>                                        
>      Sheriff November 1, 1997
>      Web posted at: 10:03 p.m. EST (0303 GMT)
>      
>      SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- The Los Angeles Police Department has
>      decided to return the bayonets it has received from a U.S. military
>      surplus program.

From Opportunity at cyber-pages.net  Sun Nov  2 11:49:05 1997
From: Opportunity at cyber-pages.net (Opportunity at cyber-pages.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:49:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox everyday?  I am!!
Message-ID: <>

I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 158        
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did
have
seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and
it's not
for me. We owe it all to MLM.
            Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

     The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system
is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
of
money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked
this
out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
            Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

     Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that
the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I
wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised
when I
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile,
it got
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll
make
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing
about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people
live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
          Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

      This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit
our
jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on
our
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you
do
it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden
opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
            Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET 
 STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Re: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox
everyday?  I
am!!
Date:    97-10-22 22:51:12 EST
From:    AWan0585
To:      Altophil

In a message dated 97-10-22 11:19:50 EDT, you write:

<< 
  I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 150          
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now!

From Opportunity at cyber-pages.net  Sun Nov  2 11:49:05 1997
From: Opportunity at cyber-pages.net (Opportunity at cyber-pages.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:49:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox everyday?  I am!!
Message-ID: <>

I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 158        
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did
have
seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and
it's not
for me. We owe it all to MLM.
            Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

     The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system
is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
of
money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked
this
out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
            Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

     Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that
the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I
wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised
when I
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile,
it got
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll
make
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing
about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people
live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
          Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

      This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit
our
jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on
our
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you
do
it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden
opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
            Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET 
 STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Re: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox
everyday?  I
am!!
Date:    97-10-22 22:51:12 EST
From:    AWan0585
To:      Altophil

In a message dated 97-10-22 11:19:50 EDT, you write:

<< 
  I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 150          
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now!

From blancw at cnw.com  Sat Nov  1 19:49:14 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:49:14 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971101195003.0068de90@cnw.com>

Vlad the Mad wrote:

>hence, I think we need to rely more on the courtroom-- it's
>the only "language" that bureacrats understand. extremely 
>expensive, but more effective. it forces us to put our money
>where our mouths are. "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance"
>and a lot of cash as well. the PRZ case proves the public
>can support such a campaign. also tactics
>as used by Softwar such as the FOIA attack approach. 
.......................................................

I'm agreeing with Vlad (euwwwww), mainly because I've had the same idea for
a long time, about the effect of winning intellectual battles in a
courtroom.   This is a prime location for the airing-out of ideas,
clarification of concepts, and making decisive conclusions about what is/is
not the right way for governming bodies to behave, to do, to treat
citizens, in relation to the original ideal (and could that ideal be
clarified even further, for those who still don't get it?).   It would
require some 'real' libertarian lawyers of the kind cpunks could support.
But wouldn't it be grand to watch as they decimated the opposition, as they
reminded everyone of the raison d'etre for this exceptional nation, and as
they 'put it to' a jury, in black & white, just what the deal is in a free
society?

Shoot, we don't need another President - just a good lawyer.

Just imagine!
Dream on!
    ..
Blanc

From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Nov  1 20:09:06 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:09:06 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711020403.WAA02950@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 19:50:49 -0800
> From: Blanc 
> Subject: Re: effective GACK fighting

> Vlad the Mad wrote:
> 
> >hence, I think we need to rely more on the courtroom-- it's
> >the only "language" that bureacrats understand. extremely 
> >expensive, but more effective. it forces us to put our money
> >where our mouths are. "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance"
> >and a lot of cash as well. the PRZ case proves the public
> >can support such a campaign. also tactics
> >as used by Softwar such as the FOIA attack approach. 
> .......................................................
> 
> I'm agreeing with Vlad (euwwwww), mainly because I've had the same idea for
> a long time, about the effect of winning intellectual battles in a
> courtroom.   This is a prime location for the airing-out of ideas,
> clarification of concepts, and making decisive conclusions about what is/is
> not the right way for governming bodies to behave, to do, to treat
> citizens, in relation to the original ideal (and could that ideal be
> clarified even further, for those who still don't get it?).   It would
> require some 'real' libertarian lawyers of the kind cpunks could support.

I also agree. It is high time those of who believe in our rights put their
money where our mouth is.

But, why do we need a lawyer? We have the right to represent ourselves, why
let somebody who has a intimate stake in the status quo represent us?

Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. Also, let's start
something relating to the 2nd. We should also move to have an amendment
which requires all existing and future legislation pass constitutional
review *prior* to being voted into existance. We should also move to have an
amendment that *requires* government employees be responsible for their
actions on a individual basis and eliminate the protection that Congress has
put in place, that is *not* in the Constitution. We should further move to
have the seizure laws revoked because they are not constitutional. The drug
laws should also be attacked on that level as well.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Nov  1 20:20:01 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:20:01 +0800
Subject: cute.
Message-ID: 

>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

Well, there's some point in it. If I send an anonymous message, sign it with
a key, and then include that key you can use that key to verify that it
indeed was the key used to sign the message. For this to be of any value,
however, future messages should be signed with that key but should not
include it. This just proves that the person who wrote the last message is
the same guy who wrote the first. That's about the only poitn I can see,
though.

From tcmay at got.net  Sat Nov  1 20:38:44 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:38:44 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971101195003.0068de90@cnw.com>
Message-ID: 

At 8:50 PM -0700 11/1/97, Blanc wrote:

>I'm agreeing with Vlad (euwwwww), mainly because I've had the same idea for
>a long time, about the effect of winning intellectual battles in a
>courtroom.   This is a prime location for the airing-out of ideas,

Where have you folks been the last couple of years? Given that the list has
been discussing the Bernstein case (and 30 of us even attended some of
Judge Patel's hearings in SF), and the Junger and Karn cases have been
extensively reported, and the CDA was overturned, I'd certainly say court
battles have been a priority for a long time.

In fact, the EFF has more or less officially de-emphasized legislative work
in favor of spending more time and money on court cases. The EFF was, of
course, deeply involved in the Bernstein case.

I'm not sure what Detweiler's point was, as I only saw his comment through
Blanc's quotes, but if he was calling for more of a legal focus, I think
this was realized by many a few years ago.

Certainly I don't know of any Cypherpunks pushing for legislative
solutions. Most of us have explicitly condemned the legislative actions,
realzing that Congress can only make things worse.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov  1 20:54:28 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:54:28 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971101201844.030ea1a8@popd.netcruiser>

At 04:24 AM 11/2/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:

>But now what? Please someone answer my questions
>about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
>compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
>Is this so? Also, the direction they seem to be
>heading is in providing more and more non-free
>GAKked product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions
>freeware? If so, can't others - a group of 
>individuals - take that source code and build off
>of that? Piss on these assholes and their licensing
>fees. It was inevitable, anyway. They are a 
>corporation after all, and the corporations are 
>not on "our" sides.

PGP 5.x is interoperable with PGP 2.6.x as long as you confine yourself to
using PGP 2.6.x RSA keys.  When you encrypt a message to a mix of RSA
(2.6.x) and ElGamal (5.x) keys, you will get a message stating that if you
insist on encrypting to the ElGamal keys, then 2.6.x users will not be able
to read the message.

I agree that the licensing fees posted are outrageous, but at least PGP
Inc. did release the source code so you CAN live without their SDK if you
are willing to analyze it.  How many other companies release source code?
How many other companies release freeware products like PGP 5.0?  They have
to make a few bucks here and there to stay in business, although I think
they are pricing themselves out of the market with their SDK fees.

PGP Inc. is not the enemy, although maybe some of the folks there ought to
have their heads examined.  When they implement mandatory CMR/GMR/GAK and
stop releasing source code, then I will throw rocks, too.  Until then, I
will continue to use their products, and sit on my high horse and laugh at
their marketing folks...

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Nov  1 21:37:33 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:37:33 +0800
Subject: What I've been up to
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

As some of you may know, I have been working on a skunk works project to
further knowledge about smartcards and add smartcard support to crypto
applications. 

While the latter isn't nearly ready for release, the former has resulted
in a number of tools some on this list should find useful. Namely, we have
a truly universal smartcard reader and software. Unlike the proprietary
protocol garbage the smartcard vendors will sell you for lots of cash
together with their overpriced toolkits, our reader uses only ISO
standards and can handle *any* smartcard. 

In addition, we developed drivers and fully-automated scanning 
software for UNIX and Win32. If you don't get results just by
typing "scan", then whatever you inserted isn't a smartcard.  :-) 

At this time, we need sample smartcards and documentation. Anonymous
donations of both is encouraged. For more information, please see
https://www.cypherpunks.to/

All questions/offers should be directed to scard-admin at cypherpunks.to

- -- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFwSMvXUPTw3WtkkEQLSZQCg8EVW2bprGr4E21W8Qg6EELc9+gcAoMdZ
6LbtU7WCfpfsYPi+Gj4l5ecX
=5Bi8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From pooh at efga.org  Sat Nov  1 21:56:14 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:56:14 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971102005347.006b8be4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:24 AM 11/2/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>But now what? Please someone answer my questions
>about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
>compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
>Is this so?

My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
message is signed, and my key is included within the message for those of you 
who have software that discards the non signed portion.  (If you don't know 
how to extract my key, copy it and fix the broken dashed line, or use a 
keyserver)

This is a store bought copy of Eudora 3.0.1 upgraded to 3.0.3 with PGP 5.0, 
and the $5 RSA add in from PGP.  If anyone who knows how to properly use PGP 
has a problem reading my signature, or my key, please let me know.

  -- Robert

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

mQBNAzIcsQUAAAECAOjT/WYy6iCh07ZEaohBwGOjWJc0RKarTJ1ZfKK3feoWW7QK
Wb13gBvgnMQeEo92OsW3nxwV20NGQakaFFeDk1kABRG0FFBvb2ggPHBvb2hAZWZn
YS5vcmc+tCpSb2JlcnQgQS4gQ29zdG5lciA8cmNvc3RuZXJAaW50ZXJnYXRlLm5l
dD4=
=kINy
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNFwVZUGpGhRXg5NZAQFIngH+K1v8JQD8g03mCtHb6ER3qHUvzwHLCOh2
npZUxxK0VFu23hpmc1wUCCZzEGTGYaoy2sxWYQy90eJJvnUU82/EeQ==
=czqz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key

From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Sat Nov  1 22:06:49 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:06:49 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <9217d0b2a7cb5c14a35269732b7d57a7@squirrel>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>[Ed Note: Jim Choate wrote:]
>> At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders
>> associated with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular
>> entertainment media and spin-doctor culture would have you
>> believe. Get your fucking facts straight.
>
>I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was
>low.  The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling
>their neighbours what they could think.

It's not hard to believe that this was the case in some places and in
some times, but a term like the "Wild West" covers a lot of time and
territory.

For example, in San Francisco in the early 1860s there was a very high
murder rate, something like 1000 people were killed in one year and
nobody was convicted.  (Forgive minor factual errors as I haven't
studied this in awhile.)  I have also read reports of substantial
violence in the mining communities of Nevada and California with
minimal enforcement action taken.  It seems likely to me that the low
murder rate claim has some exceptions, even if we ignore the mutual
atrocities between various native groups, Americans, and Mexicans.

I would also like to see how pervasive the temperance movement was in
the Wild West.  By the late nineteenth century my impression is that
it was going strong in the Wild West although it possibly hadn't
grasped the levers of power yet.

>> Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run
>> around having gun fights all the time.
>
>Right!

I'm pretty sure there were gunfights, but that they happened a lot
more quickly and a lot less formally than we see on TV.  But, I could
believe that overall they happened infrequently.  Anybody have a
reference?

I am told that knife fighting was a lot more common than is widely
known.  A lot of poor runaways showed up to work in various mining
towns and they were unable to afford expensive toys like guns.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFu5n5aWtjSmRH/5AQGsoQf7BfsZArO2JaJEGVAw9IzRGEQeykgrkFzc
JXmCkT32PmZOA0uhMxPW9cC7ehmijwhr7HOVOKO7j4BlxqXemD4oV5M9/EwQfqzU
rFgJJ/GIW5LF7h+HCI8gjsoS0VJtbpDs/d2zsuCOvwM4yXkQ330jwaAfk/iErgYs
3thfm7ZAgYcLJPeeCDc541b+eKAtxvbHoOCp3UTqM3EBws0NpDlD9+A3ZzT1a87e
UAUsvesecZyz3e1ZHlqw4L08eHdmaMxtkHE3bDrnfJQA4Ij4HPa1ayMMlJmC1XhR
U7PEl8CWC9dSLN2Z6pUpC0pIp3A6zqhISPxDW8nGpUipKwhojicXfQ==
=lL5j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From 00291856 at unesesames.com  Sun Nov  2 14:18:57 1997
From: 00291856 at unesesames.com (00291856 at unesesames.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:18:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: **We will Pay You to use Your Computer at Home to Set-up New Accts.
Message-ID: <>

	***** Please Note:  This is NOT a business opportunity. *****

Dear Online Neighbor:

Please read carefully because we are very serious and this offer is 
Very Real.  

	WE WILL PAY YOU TO USE YOUR COMPUTER AT HOME!

If you are seriously interested in making $200.00 to $300.00 per day 
at home answering the phone and processing new accounts for us on 
your computer, then please call us immediately.

Our Number is:  

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Note: We Will Reimburse you for the call when you Receive
              Your First Check from us.

We are a Telecommunications Company with the Best Offer of All Time - 
800 Number Service with No Per Minute charges.  AT&T, Sprint, and 
MCI charge between 12 cents and 26 cents per minute.  We charge Zero 
cents per minute.  Our service is offered to each customer at a Low 
Flat Rate per month.  Our customers will no longer have to worry 
about a $200.00, $400.00, $500.00, or more phone bill for 800 number 
service.  Our Low Flat-Rate 800 Number Service is truly the best 
offer available today.

With our Great Service and Product Pricing, we are Extremely Busy.  
We need more Telecommunications Representatives to help us with the 
volume of calls that we receive each day.

By Simply Answering your phone and using your Computer to Set-Up 
New Accounts, you should easily Make $200.00 to $300.00 per day or 
$1,000.00 to $1,500.00 Per Week.

Please call us if you are serious and ready to join a Professional 
Team.

Once again, Our Number is:

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Keep in mind that We Will Reimburse You for the call on Your
 First Pay Day!

We will be more than happy to answer any further questions that you may have.
Thank you very much for reading our letter and we hope that you will decide to
become a part of our Winning Team.

**** P.S. PLEASE do not hit "Reply" and send us e-mail as we will NOT get it. ****

It is NOT necessary to send us an e-mail asking to be "removed" from our list as we will
assume that you are not interested if you do not respond to this letter.  We will respect
your wishes by not sending you any further letters in the future.  Best Regards.

From 00291856 at unesesames.com  Sun Nov  2 14:18:57 1997
From: 00291856 at unesesames.com (00291856 at unesesames.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:18:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: **We will Pay You to use Your Computer at Home to Set-up New Accts.
Message-ID: <>

	***** Please Note:  This is NOT a business opportunity. *****

Dear Online Neighbor:

Please read carefully because we are very serious and this offer is 
Very Real.  

	WE WILL PAY YOU TO USE YOUR COMPUTER AT HOME!

If you are seriously interested in making $200.00 to $300.00 per day 
at home answering the phone and processing new accounts for us on 
your computer, then please call us immediately.

Our Number is:  

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Note: We Will Reimburse you for the call when you Receive
              Your First Check from us.

We are a Telecommunications Company with the Best Offer of All Time - 
800 Number Service with No Per Minute charges.  AT&T, Sprint, and 
MCI charge between 12 cents and 26 cents per minute.  We charge Zero 
cents per minute.  Our service is offered to each customer at a Low 
Flat Rate per month.  Our customers will no longer have to worry 
about a $200.00, $400.00, $500.00, or more phone bill for 800 number 
service.  Our Low Flat-Rate 800 Number Service is truly the best 
offer available today.

With our Great Service and Product Pricing, we are Extremely Busy.  
We need more Telecommunications Representatives to help us with the 
volume of calls that we receive each day.

By Simply Answering your phone and using your Computer to Set-Up 
New Accounts, you should easily Make $200.00 to $300.00 per day or 
$1,000.00 to $1,500.00 Per Week.

Please call us if you are serious and ready to join a Professional 
Team.

Once again, Our Number is:

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Keep in mind that We Will Reimburse You for the call on Your
 First Pay Day!

We will be more than happy to answer any further questions that you may have.
Thank you very much for reading our letter and we hope that you will decide to
become a part of our Winning Team.

**** P.S. PLEASE do not hit "Reply" and send us e-mail as we will NOT get it. ****

It is NOT necessary to send us an e-mail asking to be "removed" from our list as we will
assume that you are not interested if you do not respond to this letter.  We will respect
your wishes by not sending you any further letters in the future.  Best Regards.

From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Nov  1 22:48:12 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:48:12 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971102005347.006b8be4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:

> 
> My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
> message is signed, and my key is included within the message for those of you 
> who have software that discards the non signed portion.  (If you don't know 
> how to extract my key, copy it and fix the broken dashed line, or use a 
> keyserver)

Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows
this. He simply hopes that there are some people that don't know this. The
idea behind the original post and others like it over the last few days is
to spread FUD about PGP 5.0 after other attacks failed for lack of merrit.
If you repeat a lie often enough, eventually some people will believe you. 
PSYOPS 101. Let's not fall for it.

[Yes, I know that DSA keys can not be read by PGP 2.6. Neither will Word
1.0 read Word 7.0 files. So what?]

 -- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

From adam at homeport.org  Sat Nov  1 23:30:59 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:30:59 +0800
Subject: Japan's Constitution and GAK
Message-ID: <199711020716.CAA14575@homeport.org>

Does someone have access to a verificable copy of Japan's
Constitution?  Someone pointed me to one on the web, which would seem
to make difficult implemmenting international GAK systems.

http://www.leftjustified.com/leftjust/lib/sc/ht/wtp/japan.html

Article 21. Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech,
press and all other forms of expression are guaranteed. No censorship
shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of any means of
communication be violated.

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume

From jon at lasser.org  Sun Nov  2 00:13:45 1997
From: jon at lasser.org (J. Lasser)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:13:45 +0800
Subject: new PGP key
Message-ID: <19971102025751.44393@rwd.goucher.edu>

Due to a hard drive crash near the beginning of last month and an inane
lack of backups, I lost my old PGP keys (2047/0xDED5B791 and
1024/0xEC001E4D). I've generated a new key, enclosed below. Key info is
as follows:

Type Bits KeyID      Created    Expires    Algorithm       Use
sec+ 2047 0x4CDD6451 1997-10-12 ---------- RSA             Sign & Encrypt 
f16    Fingerprint16 = D8 5A 85 06 93 6C 86 E8  79 3A 07 AA 15 6E 3A BD

I will personally verify this information at the physical DC Cypherpunk
meeting tomorrow (well, today, actually), as well as hand out copies of
the fingerprint. The key is also available at my web page, at either
http://students.goucher.edu/jlasser/interests/pgpkey.html or
http://gwyn.tux.org/~lasser/interests/pgpkey.html

Yes, I keep backups now ;-)

Type bits/keyID    Date       User ID
pub  2047/4CDD6451 1997/10/12 Jon Lasser 

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2
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=xg8Z
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-- 
Jon Lasser (410)383-7962                             jon at lasser.org
http://wauug.erols.com/~lasser/             New PGP key coming soon
      "Flap your ears, Dumbo!  The feather was only a trick!"

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 00:13:50 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:13:50 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711020810.JAA29037@basement.replay.com>

##
In-reply-to: <199711020051.QAA23884 at sirius.infonex.com> (message from Mix on
	Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:51:19 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: cute.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty says
> What would be really nice is if the mailing list machines time stamped
> messages.

That would be nice.  I wonder, could one of our list hosts add a
script to sign outgoing majordomo traffic?

Here's a script to do it:

- --------------------8<--------------------
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
$pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
$tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";
undef($/);
$post = ;
($headers, at body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n", at body);
open(PIPE,"|$pgp -satf +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID > $tmp");
print PIPE $body;
close(PIPE);
open(SIGNED,"<$tmp");$signed=;close(SIGNED);
print "$headers\n\n$signed";
unlink($tmp);
- --------------------8<--------------------

It handles one mail only.  If you want to run it on a mail folder, use
formail.

> This would also prevent an attack where somebody forges mail from a
> cypherpunks list machine to flush out identities.  If the attacker
> sends a unique message to every person, he or she will be able to
> break an identity if the message is replied to on the list.

You could do something similar with independent parties posting hashes
of messages in the feed they got to the list, or to subscribers to the
service.

The list bot signing is more convenient to check though with existing
software.  Also, unfortunately, most MUA pgp software doesn't check
nested signatures, so a signature from the list would break ability to
auto check signatures from posters.

Here's another script to check the list added signature on receipt:

- --------------------8<--------------------
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
$pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
$tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";$in="/tmp/.in$$";$msg="/tmp/.msg$$";
undef($/);
$post = ;
($headers, at body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n", at body);
open(BODY,">$in");print BODY $body;close(BODY);
$res = system("$pgp -f +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID < $in > $tmp 2> $msg");
open(SIGNED,"<$tmp");$signed=;close(SIGNED);
open(ERR,"<$msg");$err=;close(ERR);
if ($res==0) {
    ($who) = ($err =~ m/Good signature from user "(.*)"\./);
    if ($who !~ m/$userID/) { $res=1; }
}
$headers =~ s/\[FORGERY\]//g;
if ($res) {
    $headers =~ s/(Subject: )([^\n]*)/\1\[FORGERY\] \2/g;
}
print "$headers\n";
print "X-Signature: ", $res ? "forgery" : "ok $who", "\n";
print "\n\n$signed\n";
unlink($tmp,$in,$msg);
- --------------------8<--------------------

> I'm not sure a timestamp matters that much for "authenticating" your
> key.  After all, you don't own "Amad3us", you own key 0x4D162BBE1.

Yes.  Except for minor nit: 0x4D162BBE1 is susceptible to a 0xdeadbeef
attack, anyone can generate another key with that keyID.  Even the
fingerprint is spoofable.  But the combination is truly hard to spoof,
and this I do own: 0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1
(fingerprint/keyID).

Amad3us (0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQCVAwUBNFwjxvKMuKFNFivhAQGYnAQA33Ss68TKF+QfDGweQZ7TAkbmlOeqPC/J
iBoV5zA+skqdgs+PD2afLAhQn5otm7xbx7rBEnBgMOYff9GyKB6Bfs/po7juwqs5
dACGPZhc5kNf4f18V04jv5sr6PWLWdwsoVegshVsiHmQgWtG9UlnZ0wKe2ORKzxf
sQkJsIe3/jA=
=naXX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  2 00:24:45 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:24:45 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
Message-ID: <199711020817.CAA31716@multi26.netcomi.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:
>After seeing the intents of PGP Inc. with the release of their new
>PGP that breaks the old free versions, I have all but written them
>off as anything but the Enemy, and am waiting for a public reply on
>the list by Tim May to make it official.

Personally, I don't think it is that useful to draw up enemy lists.
It is clear PGP, Inc. cannot be relied upon to achieve our goals for
us.  I think a lot of people half expected something like this out of
them, anyway.  All that left wing politics and weird anti-business
stuff from the PGP crowd did not augur well.

>But now what? Please someone answer my questions about PGP - it
>appears that the 5.x versions are not compatible with the 2.x
>versions which came previous.  Is this so? Also, the direction they
>seem to be heading is in providing more and more non-free GAKked
>product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions freeware? If so, can't
>others - a group of individuals - take that source code and build off
>of that?

The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
odd.  We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit
that it will be completely unencumbered.

It also gives us the opportunity to write it in a language other than
C, one which truly supports encapsulation.  C code is hard to verify
with great confidence because it is possible to obfuscate it and
introduce security holes.  This means that C requires one to trust the
authors to a greater extent than is desirable.

It would also be neat if the code were written outside the United
States and were put into the public domain.  If a company snaps it up
and bases a product on it - great!  The more people using the code the
better.

The whole issue of compatibility is an interesting one.  Would it be a
good idea to have a cryptographic system which was completely
incompatible with PGP, given the Big Brother risk?

Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
completely economical.

It also introduces security risk.  Let's say one of the three public
keys used to encrypt a message has been compromised.  Let's say the
other two parties live in places where they aren't supposed to be
exposed to bad ideas.  Once one key is compromised, the other
recipients are compromised in receiving a forbidden message.

On the other hand, if they were separately encrypted, the link between
the three messages is not obvious.  And, even if the messages *are*
linked, it's still not obvious that the other recipients didn't get
something else.  It provides a lot of deniability.

So, perhaps a protocol which does not support anything more than one
encryption key per message would be a good idea.

Something else that bothers me about PGP is compression.  It strikes
me as bad design to build this into an encryption program.  Zimmermann
has suggested that this increases security.  I doubt this.  Modern
algorithms like IDEA (please correct me if I am wrong) have the
property that if you get one bit, you've got them all.

And, I wonder if compression doesn't actually weaken security?  Let's
say I forward a known message with some commentary.  Since the
compression tables will be known, it seems like the increased size of
the message could provide some interesting information about the
preceding commentary.  All by itself, this probably doesn't matter,
but combined with other information it might result in a breach.  In
any event, that which is ambiguous should be eliminated.

It would also be nice if the messages were padded to predetermined
sizes, say 10K, 20K, 40K, etc.  (Once compression is eliminated this
is less of an issue.)

Anyway, if Adam Back wanted to undertake it, a nice project would be
design a good cypherpunk communications protocol.  Simple, clean, and
secure.

It seems to me that issues like wiping the stack as every function
returns, the formats of key rings, and security measures on the users
computer should not be in a communications standard.

Some other features: maybe a hashcash field which makes it possible to
quickly weed out junk.  The challenge string could be related to the
key.  Also, it would be neat if the system were designed with
steganography in mind.

How about a one time pad mode?  One time pads are more practical than
widely believed.  Many things we talk about we *do* want to keep quiet
for the rest of our natural lives.  Our present tool set and practices
do not do this reliably.  (But, I could be persuaded that one time pad
mode is actually something which should tunnel inside the cypherpunks
communication protocol.  Might as well keep everything clean and
orthogonal.)

>Piss on these assholes and their licensing fees.

There's nothing wrong with paying people for their work!  It's even
desirable if you want tools to be available.

>It was inevitable, anyway. They are a corporation after all, and the
>corporations are not on "our" sides.
>
>I can see a scenario where government is impotent and destroyed
>within 10 years. What will remain and will be harder to eradicate are
>the corporations.  I don't think we should rely on corporate software
>whenever possible, because it always comes with an ulterior motive.

I am of two minds on this question.  Free software is pretty darned
neat.  It's extremely easy to deal with and it's nifty that you can
write and release something and tens of thousands of people end up
using it.  If the code is simply placed in the public domain, then
anybody can use it for any purpose they like.  This has appeal.

On the other hand, corporations can be a good way to get things done,
too.  It is possible that the PGP approach of giving away software was
ultimately a mistake because now people don't expect to have to pay for
their code.  Elimination of a crypto market might be a bad thing.

It's clear that going the corporate route has to be handled with some
care.  Given the political implications, investors have certain risks.

Also, many people seem to switch into a different mode as soon as they
have a company.  Anything which they perceive as increasing their
profits becomes good.  PGP, Inc. has gone this way, we've seen First
Virtual do some unsavory things, and even good old C2 has made a few
people uncomfortable.

It doesn't have to be this way, of course.  Look at Comsec Partners.
We don't see any "conversation recovery", lying press releases, or any
other nonsense from them, just a beautiful product.

The key probably has to do with understanding clearly what it is you
want to do.  If you know you want to promote privacy and free speech
and are willing to volunteer a substantial amount of your time to do
so, then foregoing some blood money or maintaining your integrity is a
lot easier to do.

What I like about selling software is that you could actually make
good living by doing the right thing.  And, after all, if you've spent
six months writing something, why shouldn't the users kick in a little
money instead of freeloading?  I would like to see more crypto users
in the habit of paying for tools and in the habit starting security
companies.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  2 00:47:39 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:47:39 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <199711020837.CAA00759@multi26.netcomi.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

phelix at vallnet.com wrote:
>First, PGPsdk has been released:
>
>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/
>
>The bad news: the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
>freeware or shareware applications using it.

1. It's not bad news because it didn't cost us anything for somebody
else to write it.  We are doing just as well as last week.

2. If the licensing fees are really high, this should be a good
opportunity for competing software.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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cGyf/WZuvWtCmpHgLk5FKPUQS4zQXpeaJJG7LYJY6Cq2I9H+OYusTQ==
=gc92
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From adam at homeport.org  Sun Nov  2 01:01:42 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:01:42 +0800
Subject: What Will Revolution Look Like?
In-Reply-To: <199710312207.OAA27506@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199711020848.DAA14964@homeport.org>

	The distinction between civilians and soldiers, which came
about in the 17th and 18th centuries, is close to meaningless in the
context of a modern revolution.  However, this distinction, and the
Clausewitzian claim that war is the continuation of politics by other
means, underly the 'law of war.'

	War as the continuation of politics implies that the State
sends soldiers to war against other soldiers to fight for policy
rights.  War to gain teritory, war over insults or honor, religious
war, is seen as a thing of the past.  Barbaric.  Modern warriors can
not understand people who play by other rules.  To some extent, this
has been good for us civilians.  The firebombings of German cities
were an exception, not the rule.

	However, as the anti-colonial movement demonstrated, a people
can effectively fight a modern army, and win.  They are marked as
terrorists, defamed for their capitalist activites such as drug
smuggling to finance the struggle, and hanged when caught. 

	A modern revolution, as Mao taught, is based on forcing people
to decide if they are with you or against you.  There are no neutrals
who simply want the status quo to continue, because once the
revolutionaries have started to do their job, the state lashes out,
passing facist new laws (see Northern Ireland, Peru, the United
States).  The status quo disappears, and the revolutionaries are
committed.  It is only by making starkly clear who stands where that
enough people to fuel the revolution can have the manpower to sucseed.
The alternative to the revolution becomes living under the government
that killed your family members.  In Algeria, once the first few
thousands of martyrs died, every additional person the French killed
was a new reason to fight.  Surrender, to the Alerians, became
inconcievable.  Life as French was not worth living.  So they fought.

	When the revolution comes to the United States, it will not be
a pretty thing.  Our best hope is for a rapid surrender of the current
government, which is not likely.  By deploying now the tools of
communication (remailers, strong encryption, directions for building
bombs and traps, cheap radio transmitters), as well as the tools for
deception (how hard is it to build a fake GPS transmitter?), and the
understanding that the US governemnt has grown cancerous, we bring
closer the begenning and the end of the revolution.

	We bring its start closer by forcing the Government to show
its true colors, turning more people against it.  We bring its finish
closer by having ready the tools to render ineffective the large
fighting machines we have paid for, by making it clear tht the
government does not have the support of the people, and by making it
clear that once committed, we will have to fight.

	So, Tim, we disagree that it will be like nothing seen before.
It will be like many modern revolutions, because we can't force the
government to fight on our terms today.

	20 years later, we will look back, and realize that
governments have murdered most of the innocents they will ever kill,
because will can deploy technology to make government voluntary.  But
we're not there, and getting there may be bloody.

	There is, of course, Duncan's Berlin Wall theory, but I fear
things will have to get worse before they get better.

Adam

Tim May wrote:
| Some of the questions by Mark Rogaski and others ask about the nature of
| the revolution I and others are predicting and encouraging.
| 
| What will a just revolution, like those anticipated by Jefferson, Franklin,
| and others, look like?
| 
| The British thought the colonial rebels were "playing dirty" by shooting
| from behind trees instead of marching in bright uniforms with drums and
| bugles to herald their way.
| 
| Modern armies think freedom fighters are "terrorist scum" for not fighting
| honestly and fairly in their own M-1 Abrams tanks and aircraft carriers.
| 
| So, too, will revolutionaries be seen as fighting "unfairly" and being
| unethical sneaks, child killers, and terrorists.
| 
| (As if children and other innocents did not die in various incidents in
| past wars, on all sides.)
| 
| When Jefferson predicted that a revolution was needed every 20 years or so,
| he surely was not saying that throwing one party out of leadership and
| putting the other party in was an example of such a revolution, or that
| "campaign reform" is such an example. Nor was he saying that the only valid
| revolution would be when a buch of citizens or states got together their
| own army and marched on Washington.
| 
| (Actually, raising such an army is in violation of numerous laws about
| heavy weaons, licenses to carry weapons, etc. No doubt illegal. Ironically.)
| 
| No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from anything
| quite like we've seen to date.

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume

From blancw at cnw.com  Sun Nov  2 01:29:55 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:29:55 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971102012712.006cd37c@cnw.com>

Tim May wrote:

>Where have you folks been the last couple of years? Given that the list has
>been discussing the Bernstein case (and 30 of us even attended some of
>Judge Patel's hearings in SF), and the Junger and Karn cases have been
>extensively reported, and the CDA was overturned, I'd certainly say court
>battles have been a priority for a long time.
.............................................

The Bernstein, Junger, and Karn cases are all about a single issue.   The
EFF focuses on the same computer/internet/privacy issues.   What I was
envisioning was the fundamental conflicts like a basic observance of
respect for human beings in their pursuit of the Three Virtues (the
opposite of the Four Horsement ) - Life, Liberty, Happiness, and for
legitimate consent - not the manufactured "voluntary" complicity to demands
like taxation and all the other crimes which have been discussed on the list.

>Certainly I don't know of any Cypherpunks pushing for legislative
>solutions. Most of us have explicitly condemned the legislative actions,
>realzing that Congress can only make things worse.

I wouldn't expect any new laws to be passed as a result of this kind of
court battle, nor expect Congress or even the Supremes to approve of and
support it.  The only purpose would be to challenge the whole lot of
government agencies who accept the above-mentioned flaws as unquestionable
government rights-of-way.   A revolutionary sort of action, in other words,
not for the purpose of getting legislation/legislators on "our side", but
to back them up against the wall and squish them.   (Operation Squish.
heh-heh.  Ya'll remember that?)

I don't know exactly how this could be brought about, but I would expect it
would have more the structure and sense of a 'noble cause' such as the
Originals brought to their revolution, than simply to gather into groups
like the 'Patriots' and the 'Freemen' and such, who are more incoherent
than admirable.  

The Originals also made their attempts at negotiating their case with
unsympathetic rulers, preceding their realization that they were getting
nowhere.  And it is more than likely that current court judges are just as
dull and dense and morally asleep at the wheel as King George.   But the
thing is to bring out these flaws explicitly, in the place designed for
such things, where they may be attended to in the civilized manner created
for such conflicts of MO.    The Case of the Individual against the State.

I can dream, can't I?   It would make a great TV series.   (You, of course,
would rather spit-polish your guns and buy more ammo.)
    ..
Blanc

From blancw at cnw.com  Sun Nov  2 01:31:26 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:31:26 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971102004545.006cba90@cnw.com>

Jim Choate wrote:

>But, why do we need a lawyer? We have the right to represent ourselves, why
>let somebody who has a intimate stake in the status quo represent us?

Well, first of all I was being facetious, because of how people are always
saying we need Leadership (tm) and need to elect another President in order
to have a more Perfect Union.   But I said we need a "good" lawyer - a
libertarian lawyer - because I expect that it would take someone who had
studied the legal system and made it their project to be well-educated and
articulate on these matters, to be able to successfully represent the
Consitutional values which we subscribe to.   Maybe not.  I myself don't
think I could do it, although I would lend all kinds of backend support to
whoever would, and frankly I don't think I would select you, either, Jim,
because I don't think your arguments would be effective.   I would be
thrilled if someone like Tocqueville existed.   He would get my vote.

>Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
>Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
>relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
>the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. 

I don't know.   But this is the sort of issue I was thinking of.

>Also, let's start something relating to the 2nd. We should also move to [.
. . ]

Okay, you first. heh.  You're being quite free with your recommendations.
Remember, right now we're just a bunch of people sitting around their
computers talking.  Don't count your chickens before they hatch. 

From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov  2 01:35:51 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:35:51 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711020928.EAA28968@users.invweb.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711020324.EAA29916 at basement.replay.com>, on 11/02/97 
   at 04:24 AM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>After seeing the intents of PGP Inc. with the
>release of their new PGP that breaks the old
>free versions, I have all but written them off 
>as anything but the Enemy, and am waiting for
>a public reply on the list by Tim May to make
>it official.

>But now what? Please someone answer my questions
>about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
>compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
>Is this so? Also, the direction they seem to be
>heading is in providing more and more non-free
>GAKked product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions
>freeware? If so, can't others - a group of 
>individuals - take that source code and build off
>of that? Piss on these assholes and their licensing
>fees. It was inevitable, anyway. They are a 
>corporation after all, and the corporations are 
>not on "our" sides.

>I can see a scenario where government is impotent
>and destroyed within 10 years. What will remain
>and will be harder to eradicate are the corporations.
>I don't think we should rely on corporate software
>whenever possible, because it always comes with
>an ulterior motive. Is there an effort to maintain
>a version of PGP based on the free 2.x sources
>that is not affiliateed with the fuckwads at 
>PGP Inc.? If not, is it high time some of us 
>began such an effort?

 What a bunch of drivel. I give this post an 8th Grade rating.

>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 03:22:14 -0600

Does your mommy know you are up this late??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From jeremey at cypherpunks.to  Sun Nov  2 01:37:57 1997
From: jeremey at cypherpunks.to (Jeremey Barrett)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:37:57 +0800
Subject: ANNOUNCE: pgp5-pine 0.1
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

This is to announce version 0.1 of pgp5-pine, a set of shell (sh) scripts
for integrating pgp 5.x for unix into the pine mail reader. The scripts
operate via pine's facility for filters, both incoming and outgoing.

You can encrypt, decrypt, sign, and verify messages with some ease. The
send filter will automagically retrieve keys from a keyserver if told
to do so, and leans toward paranoia when it cannot encrypt a message.

This is the first released version, there is always the possibility
of bugs and/or behaviors you don't agree with. Note that these scripts 
do _not_ handle PGP/MIME, as pine does not pass the MIME structure of 
messages to filters.

For more information, see https://www.cypherpunks.to/

Disclaimer: I am not responsible for the choice of colors on the 
            cypherpunks.to web site, or any damage to anything yours
            from using this code.

Please direct all bug reports, requests, or other inquiries to
jeremey at cypherpunks.to

Regards,
Jeremey.
- --
Jeremey Barrett
jeremey at cypherpunks.to

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=CmDv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 02:32:47 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:32:47 +0800
Subject: Definition: Spin Doctoring
Message-ID: <199711021025.LAA10659@basement.replay.com>

Definition: Spin Doctoring � You are standing naked in the gas chamber
with a thousand of your fellow ethnic outlaws when the voice of Herr
Himmler blares out from  the speakers,  "I have decided to spare your
lives." The loud cheers of yourself and your grateful ethnological
comrades are cut short by the sound of a deadly gas being released from
the ceiling vents. A different voice comes over the speaker, saying,
"What Herr Himmler _meant_ to say, was�"

Sick humor? Moi�?

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 02:33:43 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:33:43 +0800
Subject: InfoWar Feedback Form #AB7-09-C3F87-%&((&%$%*
Message-ID: <199711021023.LAA10521@basement.replay.com>

I, the undersigned undertoad, herby express my evaluation of the
TruthMonger multi-user persona, based on my understanding of the 
contents of Epilogue 8 of 'InfoWar'.

TruthMonger should:
1. Run for President of the United States of America. [ ] ~ Y/N
2. Seek medical help immediately. [ ] ~ Y/N

PLP Signature: 

Thanking you for your input,
A Concerned Illegal Immigrant

From Cindy at mcglashan.com  Sun Nov  2 19:18:21 1997
From: Cindy at mcglashan.com (Cindy Cohn)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:18:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Change in Bernstein oral argument time
Message-ID: <199711030249.SAA17142@gw.quake.net>

The time for the oral argument in the Bernstein case has been moved by the
court from 1:00 p.m. to 9:00 a.m.

Hope to see you there,

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy at McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com

From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Nov  2 03:19:26 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:19:26 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199711021023.LAA10521@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

Anonymous   writes:

> I, the undersigned undertoad, herby express my evaluation of the
> TruthMonger multi-user persona, based on my understanding of the 
> contents of Epilogue 8 of 'InfoWar'.

> TruthMonger should:
> 1. Run for President of the United States of America. [ ] ~ Y/N

[Y]

It can't be any worse than the adminstration we've had the last 10
years.

> 2. Seek medical help immediately. [ ] ~ Y/N

> PLP Signature: 

> Thanking you for your input,
> A Concerned Illegal Immigrant

From da at dev.null  Sun Nov  2 03:29:14 1997
From: da at dev.null (Don't Ask...)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:29:14 +0800
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 8 / TEXT
Message-ID: <345C615F.228B@dev.null>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * TruthMonger#1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Infowar circa 1850
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   "Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

The Reverend Green had been playing to a full house daily as long as
the rain had been falling and the rain had been falling for two
weeks. When the kid ducked into the ratty canvas tent there was
standing room along the walls, a place or two, and such a heady reek
of the wet and bathless that they themselves would sally forth into
the downpour now and again for fresh air before the rain drove them
in again. He stood with others of his kind along the back wall. The
only thing that might have distinguished him in that crowd was that he
was not armed.

Neighbors, said the reverend, he couldnt stay out of these here
hell, hell, hellholes right here in Nacogdoches. I said to him, said:
You goin to take the son of God in there with ye? And he said: Oh
no. No I aint. And I said: Dont you know that he said I will foller
ye always even unto the end of the road?

Well, he said, I aint askin nobody to go nowheres. And I said:
Neighbor, you dont need to ask. He's a goin to be there with ye ever
step of the way whether ye ask it or ye dont. I said: Neighbor, you
caint get shed of him. Now. Are you going to drag him, *him*, into
that hellhole yonder?

You ever see such a place for rain?

The kid had been watching the reverend. He turned to the man who
spoke. He wore long moustaches after the fashion of teamsters and he
wore a widebrim hat with a low round crown. He was slightly walleyed
and he was watching the kid earnestly as if he'd know his opinion
about the rain.

I just got here, said the kid.

Well it beats all I ever seen.

The kid nodded. An enormous man dressed in an oilcloth slicker had
entered the tent and removed his hat. He was bald as a stone and he
had no trace of beard and he had no brows to his eyes nor lashes to
them. He was close on to seven feet in height and he stood smoking a
cigar even in this nomadic house of God and he seemed to have removed
his hat only to chase the rain from it for now he put it on again.

The reverend had stopped his sermon altogether. There was no sound
in the tent. All watched the man. He adjusted the hat and then
pushed his way forward as far as the crateboard pulpit where the
reverend stood and there he turned to address the reverend's
congregation. His face was serene and strangely childlike. His hands
were small. He held them out.

Ladies and gentlemen I feel it my duty to inform you that the man
holding this revival is an imposter. He holds no papers of divinity
from any institution recognized or improvised. He is altogether
devoid of the least qualifications to the office he has usurped and
has only committed to memory a few passages from the good book for the
purpose of lending to his fraudulent sermons some faint flavor of the
piety he despises. In truth, the gentleman standing here before you
posing as a minister of the Lord is not only totally illiterate but is
also wanted by the law in the states of Tennessee, Kentucky,
Mississippi, and Arkansas.

Oh God, cried the reverend. Lies, lies! He began reading
feverishly from his opened bible.

On a variety of charges the most recent of which involved a girl of
eleven years - I said eleven - who had come to him in trust and whom
he was surprised in the act of violating while actually clothed in the
livery of his God.

A moan swept through the crowd. A lady sank to her knees.

This is him, cried the reverend, sobbing. This is him. The devil.
Here he stands.

Let's hang the turd, called an ugly thug from the gallery to the
rear.

Not three weeks before this he was run out of Fort Smith Arkansas
for having congress with a goat. Yes lady, that is what I said.
Goat.

Why damn my eyes if I wont shoot the son of a bitch, said a man
rising at the far side of the tent, and drawing a pistol from his boot
he leveled it and fired.

The young teamster instantly produced a knife from his clothing and
unseamed the tent and stepped outside into the rain. The kid
followed. They ducked low and ran across the mud toward the hotel.
Already gunfire was general within the tent and a dozen exits had been
hacked through the canvas walls and people were pouring out, women
screaming, folk stumbling, folk trampled underfoot in the mud. The
kid and his friend reached the hotel gallery and wiped the water from
their eyes and turned to watch. As they did so the tent began to sway
and buckle and like a huge and wounded medusa it slowly settled to the
ground trailing tattered canvas walls and ratty guyropes over the
ground.

The baldheaded man was already at the bar when they entered. On the
polished wood before him were two hats and a double handful of coins.
He raised his glass but not to them. They stood up to the bar and
ordered whiskeys and the kid laid his money down but the barman pushed
it back with his thumb and nodded.

These here is on the judge, he said.

They drank. The teamster set his glass down and looked at the kid
or he seemed to, you couldnt be sure of his gaze. The kid looked down
the bar to where the judge stood. The bar was that tall not every man
could even get his elbows up on it but it came just to the judge's
waist and he stood with his hands placed flatwise on the wood, leaning
slightly, as if about to give another address. By now men were piling
through the doorway, bleeding, covered in mud, cursing. They gathered
about the judge. A posse was being drawn to pursue the preacher.

Judge, how did you come to have the goods on that no-account?

Goods? said the judge.

When was you in Fort Smith?

Fort Smith?

Where did you know him to know all that stuff on him?

You mean the Reverend Green?

Yessir. I reckon you was in Fort Smith fore ye come out here.

I was never in Fort Smith in my life. Doubt that he was.

They looked from one to the other.

Well where was it you run up on him?

I never laid eyes on the man before today. Never even heard of him.
He raised his glass and drank.

There was a strange silence in the room. The men looked like mud
effigies. Finally someone began to laugh. Then another. Soon they
were all laughing together. Someone bought the judge a drink.

I would be the last one to deny that those who have followed the Chronicles
of InfoWar and/or my posts to the CypherPunks mailing list would be
justified in concluding that I am a raving lunatic, suffering from some
bizarre form of psychotic delusion which has yet to be properly researched,
defined and categorized by medical science.

However, please allow me to say a few words in my own defense, in the hope
of giving you at least a modicum of insight into the method of my madness,
and vice-versa.

I have lived a life which many people would consider rather remarkable and,
in some aspects, rather unbelievable, as well. {In reality, 'unusual' is
probably a more fitting, though mundane, description.}
In order to impress upon you that I am not consciously or (too)
subconsciously attempting to pretentiously portray (or inwardly deem) myself
as some kind of eminent, all-wise, all-seeing guru or genius at the expense
of the individual uniqueness, talents and value of others, such as yourself,
let me state that I truly recognize, even in my moments of cynicism, egoism,
or a plethora of other human states of consciousness and being, that what I
regard as the absolute wonderment of my own life is no less remarkable than
that of each and every other being sharing this corporeal and metaphysical
existence with me.

If I were able to single handedly bring about world-peace upon the earth
tomorrow, heal all of the sick and lame, and make life a proverbial bowl of
cherries for all humankind, I would still regard myself as no more
remarkable than any man or woman who is capable of bringing new life into
this world.
Anyone who has ever been present at the birth of a child is likely to
understand that I am speaking of the folly of our pretensions and our
posturing, in the face of the genuine mystery of creation.

Having said this, let me proceed to attempt to elucidate the reasons for the
sincerity I strive for in writing, no matter how 'right' or 'wrong' I may be
in my beliefs, values and world-view.

I was very young as a child�

OK, seriously�

The expression "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" applies to each and
every one of us in our own way.

My life has been a process of going everywhere, doing everything, seeing and
experiencing an amazing variety of the reality-bytes that life has to offer.
Many whom I have come in contact with, who have 'settled down' to live a
life very similar to that of their family, friends and neighbors, find me to
be an interesting fascinating 'character.' What many of them do not fully
realize is that I find them to be equally fascinating.
Despite the wild, far-ranging roller coaster of life I have experienced, I
recognize that it is in no way more reality-encompassing than the life of
someone who has borne and raised a child, or children, or who have dedicated
their life to the pursuit of total understanding of minute area of the total
scheme of reality. I have sometimes been involved in conversations with
people who pour out their woes, their self-doubts, their regrets of 'roads
not taken,' etc., and I have said, in reply, "You have raised a wonderful
child. You, and everyone else who has done so deserve a Pulitzer Prize. No
one on the face of the earth, however renowned, has ever done anything which
is superior to what you have accomplished."

Everyone has things that they have the background and ability to do and
corresponding life lessons and experience that they have to share with their
fellow terrestrial travelers.
What I believe I have to share is the perceptive viewpoint of someone who
has garnered a reasonably objective outlook on the life and society around
them, as a result of having always stood slightly outside the boundaries of
whatever situational reality they were interacting with at any point in
time.
To illustrate, allow me to point out that I have been through "The End of
the World" � twice, in my lifetime to date.

The first time was as a baptized member of Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide
Church of God. (I am not only Washed In The Blood Of The Lamb, but I also
scrubbed behind my ears-mom would be proud of me.)
One of the reasons I still regard the members of the WWCOG very highly is
that during my stay in the church I suffered very little discrimination or
judgment as a result of being vastly different from almost all other members
of the church, in ways that would have resulted, as a member of most
organizations (religious or secular), in my being the target of coercive
attempts at 'changing me for the better', or [Your Example of Infringement
of One's Right To Self-Determination Here].

Hard to believe that hard-core Christians could be this liberal (Example #
6):
"We would rather that you didn't strip naked during church services, paint
yourself blue and stand on your head while chanting 'Allah is good�Allah is
great. Hopefully, further Bible study will lead you to understand that these
actions are not necessary for spiritual development. But, hey! We could be
wrong."

While you may be chuckling at my humorous representation of what I am
explaining, here, let me assure you that this tongue in cheek example is no
more outlandish than 'the real facts.'

When "The End of the World" � was announced, church members made
preparations for holing up on the specified date, having a fantastic 'last
meal' and preparing for a final night of fellowship during which most
'masks' would be dropped (being as how the last day before the end of all
physical existence doesn't lend itself to being pretentious in the hope of
receiving future benefit from misleading yourself and others).
{FYI: Yes, I was tempted to make the obvious "going out with a bang
" suggestions, all in good humor, but this was one of
the few times in my life that I was able to resist my basic urge to be
infantile and immature.}

After the WWCOG members, including myself, awoke the next morning to find
that it still hurt when they pinched their arm, so this couldn't possibly be
Heaven �, the church went through a major shake-up, with many members
becoming disillusioned and leaving for browner pastures. Most of those who
remained in the church went through great mental and emotional turmoil in
the process of resolving the dichotomy of remaining a member of a 'True
Church' which had failed the ultimate test of 'infallibility'.
Not me�

This is part and parcel of what I am trying to explain as an example of what
I regard as an ability on my part to exercise a great deal of objectivity,
even during my active participation in entering into membership in a
particular or specific belief-system.

I never, at any time, believed that the proverbial "End of the World" was
imminent. Quite the opposite, in fact, yet I participated fully in the
event.
Why? When you are a member of a bowling team, you bowl ten frames because
that is what you are there to do, as a member of the team. That is how those
involved keep score and the agreed basis upon which they judge the results.

I made no attempt to burst anyone else's bubble while preparing for an event
which I was certain would not occur but, when asked by other church members,
I did not attempt to obfuscate my beliefs in this regard, instead speaking
honestly about my view that the person reading the road map of the future
was not aware of the concept of magnetic deflection affecting the perception
of True North.
On the other hand, neither did I negate the possibility that I might, at the
appointed time, be proven wrong, as I found myself swept up into Heaven �,
to be confronted by a Supreme Being who was wagging a finger at me, saying,
"You are going to find your eternal stay in Heaven considerably more
enjoyable if you drop the cynicism."

As a result of having the objectivity which comes from being what I
characterize as "an insider watching from the outside," I found that I could
observe or participate in the debates between the 'True Believers' and the
'Disillusioned' and manage to separate the wheat from the chaff, chiefly
because I didn't have a 'position to defend.'
i.e.-I hadn't given away my bowling ball (metaphorically speaking) to
charity, out of certitude that I would not be needing it the following day,
so I had no need to 'place blame' on anyone for my having to buy a new
bowling ball for the upcoming tournament.

Although I ceased actively participating in the WWCOG shortly after The End
of the World � , it was a result of having already learned and experienced
most of those things which I was there to apperceive.

In the wake of the World inconsiderately failing to End on schedule, the
titular heads of the Worldwide Church of God rechecked their figures and,
sure enough, realized that they had forgotten to 'carry the three' and that
it had been a mistake to use the recently legislated value of pi (3.0) in
their calculations.
I found this to be very disturbing.
I personally had absolutely no problem with the World failing to End as
predicted, nor with those who had mistakenly (as it turned out) made the
prediction. My beliefs and core values were neither strengthened nor
weakened by the details of the event-I am proud to say that I felt no need
to paint myself 'green' instead of 'blue' thereafter, in an attempt to
rebuild a non-existent ivory tower of religious/spiritual belief.

Had those involved not busied themselves with attempting to pretend that
they were still infallible, but bad at math, my sojourn in the Worldwide
Church of God would have undoubtedly lasted a little longer. As it was, I
felt that there were more precipitous routes to additional knowledge and
learning, since advancement of corporal and ethereal cognitive capabilities
had been put on hold in the church in the interests of regeneration of
structures which were not truly necessary to the objectives of religious
spirituality.

To tell the truth, I find it rather ironic that intelligent, spiritually
oriented individuals who recognize the foolishness of worshipping golden
calves often fail to recognize that the 'semi-worshipping' of 'wooden'
calves may be a step forward, but is equally foolish, nonetheless.

My participation in the second (non-annual) "End of the World" � was as a
member of the Institute of Applied Metaphysics.
The event/process was very similar in concept to the WWCOG "End of the
World" �, with only the circumstantial details being significantly
different.
i.e. - As a member of IAM, I stripped naked, painted my self purple, and
stood on my head during the meetings, conferences and classes.

Once again, those involved in "The End of the World" � awoke the next
morning to find that it still hurt when they pinched their arm (or when I
pinched their butt). Again, there was a certain amount of disillusionment in
the wake of continued corporeal existence, but less so than in the WWCOG,
since there was less of a structured, ritual schematization involved.
i.e. - more people wearing jeans, fewer people wearing suits and ties

I eventually moved on to a divergent path in my quest toward finding new and
better ways to investigate the underlying unity within the boundaries of
diversity, once again taking along the lessons and experiences I had
garnered during my hiatus from constant motion (as opposed to fleeing from
the abomination of human fallibility).

The wake of this second failure of the World to End according to schedule
was of lesser amplitude than the previous one I had participated in, rocking
the boat of established position/beliefs less than before. I attribute this
to the fact that the response of the titular heads of the Institute of
Applied Metaphysics was not to 'deny' that there had been no failure, only a
slight miscalculation (PolitiSpeak), but was, instead, to 'reveal' to the
participants that the world had, in fact, come to an end, exactly as
predicted.
The 'loophole' that validated this Nostradamian spin-doctoring was that the
precise wording of the original prediction was "the world AS WE KNOW IT will
come to an end."

{Petty and cynical way to have fun with 'voices pontificating in the
wilderness' when they are so foolish as to give a date and time to their
"End of the World" � prediction: Ask them if the time quoted is Eastern
Time, Pacific Time, or Greenwich Mean Time.
NostraCanadaIsis: "The 'End of the World' � will be at 9:00 p.m. (9:30 p.m.
in Newfoundland).

Definition: Spin Doctoring - You are standing naked in the gas chamber with
a thousand of your fellow ethnic outlaws when the voice of Herr Himmler
blares out from the speakers, "I have decided to spare your lives." The loud
cheers of yourself and your grateful ethnological comrades are cut short by
the sound of a deadly gas being released from the ceiling vents. A different
voice comes over the speaker, saying, "What Herr Himmler meant to say, was�"

Sick humor? Moi�?

The two examples above involve group participation events which are
synchronous with individual examples of 'what I do.'

Everyone has things which they 'do'.
What I am speaking of here is something which I believe most people
inherently understand, but which is difficult to put into words.
i.e. - I can only describe my understanding of the concept I am expressing,
in the hope that you can compare and interpret what I say in the light of
your own knowledge and experience, be it a translation of what I say into a
mathematical equation, an emotional feeling, a graphical representation, or
whatever�

What some people do is to live a life of optimism which drives cynical
people crazy, particularly in light of the fact that the history of events
in the optimist's life confirms that his or her world-view is valid.
What other people do is live a life of cynicism which drives optimists
crazy, in light of the fact that the cynic's observations and logic are
irrefutable, thus forcing the optimist to face the fact that life is not a
bowl of cherries for those whose destiny is not to reflect the benefits of
the power of positive thinking but, rather, the reality that life is a crap
shoot.

i.e.  - Some people always find a parking space exactly where they
need one, and other people never find a parking space in the needed spot.

The "End of the World" � is something that I do.
'Participate in' might equally describe what I refer to as 'something I do',
if viewed from the perspective of the interplay between myself and others.

To explain, on a one-on-one level of individuality, what I am speaking of, I
should explain that, on occasion, people I know, vaguely know, or don't know
from Adam, will show up on my doorstep, and spend time with me.
A total stranger sometimes shows up on my doorstep and, without a word of
explanation, spends several days helping me install a new carpet, trim my
hedges, or whatever I happen to be involved in at the time. All without
saying a word before departing at some point, never to cross my path again
before making their exit from this mortal plane.
Or, they may show up and sit in my living room for an hour, a day, a week,
and tell me their life story. "I was very young, as a child�then, this
morning�" Once again, after they have done whatever it is they needed to do,
they depart.

The common link between the people who enter my life to perform variations
upon the above themes, before moving on, is that they die a short time
later.
What is the 'explanation of'/'reason for' the process I have just described?
I have some opinions and/or theories in this regard, but the bottom line is
that it does not matter in the least whether I am correct or incorrect in
this regard. The bottom line is that it is something that I do/'participate
in' and experience has taught me that if I try to interpret the 'true
meaning and purpose' of these events, thereby convincing myself that I have
some imagined 'cause of action' by which I can control/influence the
'outcome' of the event in a 'proper' manner, everything goes to hell and
takes longer than it would have if I had resisted the impulse to
control/interfere.

At this point, I would like to point out that many people might regard the
preceding as what Tim May refers to as 'magical thinking' and that they
would, in a certain sense, be right. Tim May has, in more than a few
missives, indicated his disapproval of those who engage in the 'airy-fairy'
process of 'magical thinking,' in contradiction to the known physical laws
of reality.

I have long regarded Tim May as the original Philosopher King of the
CypherPunks mailing list, and I give considerable weight to his missives,
knowing that they are, for the most part, composed in a process which
involves careful thought and analysis of the issues or technicalities of
whatever topic that his missive is addressing.
If my first reading of his post to the CypherPunks list seems to indicate
that he is simply 'on the rag' and 'blowing smoke,' then I read the post
again to see if I am correct in the assumption that he is having a 'bad hair
day,' or if I have my head up my butt and I am failing to understand what
Tim is attempting to communicate.

Tim May sometimes comes off, in the context of the
not-totally-encompassing-media of InterNet communication, as a bit of a
Redneck/Ugly-American/Materialistically-Grounded/Fuck-the-Hippie-Crystal-Worshipers
kind of guy.
i.e. - Nuke Magical Thinkers
However, I think he would be surprised, given my above claims, to find that
I agree with him, for the most part-listen closely-within the context of his
definition of 'magical thinking.'

However, 'magical thinking' is something that I do, and I believe that it is
valid from within the context of my definition of what the term truly
comprises.
i.e. - I care not in the least whether you (or I) claim that it is possible
to 'psychically will' the balance of a bank account to increase by $100.00.
My view is that this-or-that claim doesn't matter in the least. What matters
is whether the bank account does or does not increase.

What I am getting at is that, as a mathematician, the certitude of what you
recognize and accept is not dependent on my mathematical ability to
understand the concepts which you know and understand. My belief that 1 + 1
= 3 is not likely to cause you to come to the belief that your whole life is
a lie, and that you should kill yourself.
Why is this? Because mathematics is something that you do.

Likewise, metaphysics is something that I do.
What I implore you to understand is that I have no more personal, emotional
investment in a blue aura meaning 'this' as opposed to 'that', than you, as
a mathematician, have in 1 + 1 = 2, as opposed to 1 + 1 = 3.
Your concern as a mathematician is that the value you recognize is valid
within the boundaries of the logic system within which you are working. My
concern as a metaphysician is the same.

In effect, what I am saying is that people, be they friends, acquaintances
or total strangers, show up on my doorstep and do whatever it is they need
to do before departing and going off to reunite with the Spirit of the
Cosmic Muffin, or whatever.
You don't understand? Me neither�

Do you believe or disbelieve what I am telling you? Do you think it is a
'good' thing or a 'bad' thing, if true? Do you think it is the work of God,
or the work of the Devil?
Pick 'one from Column A and two from Column B', or vice-versa-it's fine by
me. Regardless of your or my belief/disbelief, attitude or opinion�it
happens.

If you feel the urge to show up on my doorstep and spend the next few
decades helping to prove or disprove what I perceive as reality, feel free
to do so, but I believe that there are probably much better ways to spend
your time.

I guess what I am haphazardly attempting to explain is my view of what
objectivity truly means, insofar as I understand the concept and strive to
arrive at an objective, truthful perception of existence, during my journey
through 'madness cleverly disguised as sanity' (or vice-versa).

Non-Taoists often perceive those who are journeying in a direction opposite
to, or tangent to, their own vector of impetus as being 'in opposition to'
themselves.
>From a Taoist perspective, however, no one is truly 'going the wrong way.'

In effect, it is as if we live in a world where traveling both North and
South are required for survival/enlightenment/whatever.
Those who are dimly aware that they are traveling North after having already
fulfilled the 'traveling South' part of the equation, are likely to
subconsciously recognize that those traveling in the opposite direction may
be doing so because have already fulfilled the 'traveling North' part of the
equation. Those who have not yet traversed the opposite side of the equation
are more likely to believe that those traveling in the opposite direction
are 'evil incarnate', actively seeking to subvert the will of the OneWay
True God who rules the 'Turn Left To Go Towards Righteousness' universe.

I believe that it might help to clarify the concept I am attempting to
express here if I ask you to think of examples from your own life, and from
the lives of others you have observed, which might serve to illustrate
people who unthinkingly shout "You are going the wrong way!" to total
strangers when, in fact, they have no idea where the person they are
shouting at is coming from, or going to.
A parallax example would be a mature person trying to impose the logic of
grownup reasoning on a teenager who is firmly ensconced in the hormonal grip
of a still-growing movement toward balancing reason and emotion.

The value that our experience and understanding can play in communicating
with others is directly related to the degree to which we have recognized,
faced and resolved those events and situations in our life that require us
to strike a balance between order and chaos, individuality and communion
with the 'other', stability and evolution-Yin and Yang.

Obtuse Parallax Non-Involvement Participation Theory: The fact that life is
a crap shoot in no way detracts from the validity of 'self-determination
through the exercise of free will' playing an essential part in determining
the final outcome of the unfolding of our predestination.

{Pretty profound, eh? I wonder if it actually means anything�}

But, seriously�I was very young as a child�

OK, I'll quit kidding around. (Honest!)

Despite the extremely multitudinous verbal effusions which I often use to
convey my understanding of life's realities and peculiarities, much of what
my preceding voluminous asseverations are aimed toward communicating can be
summed up in a two-line poem which was written by an eccentric schizoid
component of my overall persona which lurks omnipresently behind the scar
tissue on the periphery of my brain, as the result of a failed lobotomy
attempt by a well-meaning, but misguided, member of the Manson family.

                           "All My Lies Are True"

                            All my lies are true�
                      And everything I do, I really am.

In short (but time-and-volume expanded to give you the benefit of
enlightenment through overcoming the confusion of my verbal obtuseness),
there exists-in the heart of the time-space continuum that is conspiring
with extemporaneous metaphysical actuality to bring us all to a sorry
end-two separate and distinct enemies of the current direction and goals of
our lifelong aspirations.

The first enemy is whatever runs contrary to our beliefs, aims and purpose
in life, and which threatens our existence/being/survival because of our
failure to recognize its value in our life, due to the fact that it
encompasses arenas of life which we have not yet had occasion to confront
and/or experience.
The second enemy is the 'friendly enemy' which represents those arenas of
life which we have already traversed, and which constitute a hazard to the
evolution of our consciousness only by virtue of the fact that it is always
tempting to bathe in the glory of treading familiar ground, deluding
ourselves that our competence in rehashing already-learned lessons in life
is a sign of superiority to those poor souls we pass by as they stumble and
fall in their evolutionary journey through unfamiliar territory.

For those of you who have consumed less than a quart of Scotch in the last
half-hour, and are thus mystified as to what I am talking about, here, I
will point out that what I have just expressed might be considered to be the
equivalent of those who teach second-grade math indulging themselves in the
bizarre and obscene delusion that the godlike reverence which the six and
seven year old children impute to them as a result of their superior
understanding of the mysteries of multiplication is somehow reflective of
their innate superiority to the entirety of humanity around them.

Or, as a parallax example, a school yard bully who considers himself to be a
'tough guy', despite the fact that he is six-foot eight, two hundred and
forty five pounds, forty three years of age, and is still in the third
grade.
[No, asshole, this example is not based on my own life experience.]

As you may have already guessed, I have pretty much lost track of what the
hell it is I had originally intended to communicate in this duplicitous
soliloquy concerning the divine triad of incremental quaternion.
So perhaps it is best that I toss my Thesaurus in the trash and entrust to
my limited lexicon the responsibility of conveying an important, though
insipid, axiom of life which should serve as an shining beacon which has the
capacity to enlighten the waters beyond the rocky shores of my limited
attention span, and open the door to a complete understanding of how to
properly interpret and evaluate the Chronicles of InfoWar.

In other words-in plain English-articulating my unknown thoughts in a manner
which accurately expresses my lack of social skills and my disposition
toward not really giving a fat rat's ass if my efforts at elocution are
appreciated, or whether I am just pissing in the wind�
I am the living, breathing incarnation of the Jules Pfiefer elucidation of
the "Mad Dog in possession of the last false smile."

I AM the TruthMonger.

If you think that my irreverence, sick humor, and my propensity toward
expressing myself in a manner which will lead those reading my mad ramblings
to conclude that I am an uncouth, insane asshole is an indication that I am
not totally sincere in seeking to share the enlightenment that it has been
my blessing to experience during the course of my life, then Fuck You!

We are all born into a predestined domain wherein our role as a warrior is
to fight the battles which can be waged by none other than ourselves.
My predestined battle is to rail loud and long against the anal-retentive
scourge of counterfeit substantiality which we and our fellow
anthropological sycophants kneel in obeisance to, for lack of true belief in
the primacy of our sovereign franchise which not only deems us to be the
captain of our ship of life and master of our ultimate destiny, but which
also demands that we recognize our divinity and our obligation to throw off
the bondage of outside authority, accepting total responsibility for living
our life according to the dictates of our conscience and our innate soul
pattern.

"To he who does what within him lies, God will not deny his grace."
- Saint Thomas Aquinas

"We make our Gods, do battle with them, and they bless us."
- Herman Hesse

"All my lies are TruthMongering."
- The Last Canadian Outlaw
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From da at dev.null  Sun Nov  2 03:30:51 1997
From: da at dev.null (Don't Ask...)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:30:51 +0800
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 8 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <345C60CC.7A43@dev.null>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 34800 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 03:56:03 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:56:03 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0 international patches and hacks
Message-ID: <199711021150.MAA18314@basement.replay.com>

A new resource page is up on the cypherpunks.to web site, to host
various patches and hacks to the pgp 5.0i source. Currently a patch
which fixes the expiration date for the software and "Version" comment
in ASCII-armored messages is available.

For more, visit https://www.cypherpunks.to/

-- 
pgp5hacks at cypherpunks.to

From 37387166 at prodigy.com  Sun Nov  2 20:10:18 1997
From: 37387166 at prodigy.com (37387166 at prodigy.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:10:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bulk E-mail Done Your Way !!!
Message-ID: < >

If you wish to be removed from this list please respond to Remove

Let us do your Bulk E-mailing for you, the way you want it, 
at reasonable rates.
If you are interested in reaching thousands or even milliions of 
potential customers,  this is the way to go.

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Call us        (702) 883-2093  M-F 9-5 PST
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We accept Visa, Mastercard and American Express.

From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Nov  2 04:47:15 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:47:15 +0800
Subject: RSA Blows Smoke
Message-ID: <199711021240.HAA30685@users.invweb.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Wierd News
RSA Blows Standards Smoke
James Glave james at wired.com"
6:16pm 31.Oct.97.PST
http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/8196.html

Today's announcement "http://www.rsa.com/smimelive/html/9710311.html" by
RSA Data Security stating that the company has formally applied to the
Internet Engineering Task Force to establish an email security standard is
a blatant lie rooted in greed, allege sources close to the process.

"RSA is lying, and I am really livid," said Paul Hoffman of the Internet
Mail Coalition. "RSA has not submitted anything."

The flap centers around the company's ongoing efforts to get its
proprietary S/MIME email encryption technology endorsed as a standard by
the task force. Such an endorsement would give the company credibility,
and potentially, an increased market share over rival Pretty Good Privacy.
PGP submitted a competing protocol for standards consideration last month.

The Internet standards process is lengthy and complicated at best. The
sticking point in RSA's efforts to date is that the task force will only
consider non-proprietary technologies for the standards track. But S/MIME
2, the protocol at the heart of the effort, includes core RSA technologies
that must be licensed.

To be considered for standardization, RSA must relinquish "change
control," or the ability to modify the technology, to the task force. And
the portion the task force is most interested in altering is the portion
that requires RSA technology. As a result, getting change control "has
been like pulling teeth," claims Jeff Schiller, the organization's
security director. 

"Their goal has always been get this into the IETF but don't really give
up control," said Schiller. "[They want to] make sure that when the
standard comes down, if an anyone wants to implement it then they have to
be a licensee."

Schiller says that until change control is secured, RSA has no hope of
coming near a formal application - as they had claimed to have already
done this morning. RSA, however, claims that it has granted change
control.

"They are trying to get more market share by claiming that the IETF is
endorsing their commercial product," alleged Schiller.

RSA, in fact, is only one of five groups that have worked on S/MIME 2,
which is about to be submitted by the Internet Mail Coalition to the IETF
as an informational request for comments. Now, in order to retain its hold
on the S/MIME technology, RSA is taking sole credit for submitting it to
the task force, some observers claim.

"It's totally disacknowledging the work of a lot of other people," said
Hoffman. A request for comments is one of the initial steps in the
certification process, and Hoffman says that the Internet Mail Coalition
has yet to put S/MIME 2 forward.

Further, Schiller says, "When we do, it is not trying to get it as an
Internet standard. It won't go - and therefore we are not going to try."

Hoffman reiterated that S/MIME 2 won't be an Internet standard because it
relies on proprietary security technology and weak encryption. The
Internet Mail Coalition is about to begin work on S/MIME 3, which will use
stronger encryption and true open standards.

Tim Matthews, product manager for RSA, acknowledged that the announcement
may be open to misinterpretation. "It's basically a summation of all the
work we've been doing over the past month," he said.

Instead of helping its own cause, and gaining public mindshare, RSA's
announcement may end up flying back in its face.

"If it fragments the S/MIME camp it could help PGP a bit," said Charles
Breed, director of technology for competitor PGP.

"I hope [the announcement] hasn't sunk their chances because there are
still a lot of people who want to do S/MIME," said Hoffman. "RSA's
greediness could sink this, but I really hope it doesn't."

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Nov  2 05:03:15 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:03:15 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711020817.CAA31716@multi26.netcomi.com>
Message-ID: <199711021247.MAA07989@server.test.net>

Monty Cantsin writes:
> nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:
> >But now what? Please someone answer my questions about PGP - it
> >appears that the 5.x versions are not compatible with the 2.x
> >versions which came previous.  Is this so? Also, the direction they
> >seem to be heading is in providing more and more non-free GAKked
> >product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions freeware? If so, can't
> >others - a group of individuals - take that source code and build off
> >of that?
> 
> The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
> odd.  

I had a go at doing something with it (I'll let you know when I get it
to work) -- I had the damnest job figuring out what was going on.  The
problem I found with understanding it were all of the nested functions
called through vectors of functions and handler functions.  Makes it
hard to inspect what will happen without running the code under a
debugger -- lots control flow is decided at run time.

> We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit that
> it will be completely unencumbered.

Sounds maybe worth doing.

> It also gives us the opportunity to write it in a language other than
> C, one which truly supports encapsulation.  C code is hard to verify
> with great confidence because it is possible to obfuscate it and
> introduce security holes.  This means that C requires one to trust the
> authors to a greater extent than is desirable.

Some C programmers do have fun writing obfuscated chicken scratchings,
but you _can_ write C code optimised for readability.

What language did you have in mind?  modula-3?  iso-pascal/borland
pascal?

> The whole issue of compatibility is an interesting one.  Would it be a
> good idea to have a cryptographic system which was completely
> incompatible with PGP, given the Big Brother risk?

Theoretically perhaps, however I'm not sure a system will get very far
unless it can automatically interoperate with pgp2.x and 5.x.  You
could build something which did the right thing automatically based on
public key types:

hypothetical cpunks mail system (HCMS)

HCMS -> pgp2.x   use RSA/MD5/IDEA and pgp2.x message formats
HCMS -> pgp5.x   use DSA/EG/3DES/SHA1 and pgp5.x message formats
HCMS -> HCMS     use whatever goodies you want, stego, mixmaster, etc.

decision of compatibility mode to use would be based on public key
type you're sending to.

> Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
> to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
> conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
> cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
> completely economical.

This is more secure I agree.  The real kicker with this problem is
people who turn on encrypt to self -- I don't want messages with
encrypt to self (an extra door into the message) on them in my
mailbox, nor coming over the wire headed to me.

You can see the reason for multiple recipient though -- it's too ease
integration into mailers -- you can process the message and give it
back to the mailer, and then it can still send the message To: x, y;
Cc: z.

Doing away with multiple crypto recipient risk is more an issue of MUA
integration than rabid conservation of bits.

(Btw., if you've looked at pgp formats you will observe a tendency to
hand huffman encode everything -- yuck, makes decoding and encoding
fiddly, makes code bloat, is extra complexity which makes
implementation mistakes more likely).

> It also introduces security risk.  Let's say one of the three public
> keys used to encrypt a message has been compromised.  Let's say the
> other two parties live in places where they aren't supposed to be
> exposed to bad ideas.  Once one key is compromised, the other
> recipients are compromised in receiving a forbidden message.
> 
> On the other hand, if they were separately encrypted, the link between
> the three messages is not obvious.  And, even if the messages *are*
> linked, it's still not obvious that the other recipients didn't get
> something else.  It provides a lot of deniability.

Yes.  I was thinking this also.  Really paranoid cypherpunk mail
delivery should be via mixmaster, and should be forward secret.

> So, perhaps a protocol which does not support anything more than one
> encryption key per message would be a good idea.

You don't have to use it.  I tend not to.  I never use encrypt to
self, and I get annoyed with people who send me messages encrypt to
themselves, and very rarely do I use Cc on encrypted messages.

> Something else that bothers me about PGP is compression.  It strikes
> me as bad design to build this into an encryption program.  Zimmermann
> has suggested that this increases security.  I doubt this.  Modern
> algorithms like IDEA (please correct me if I am wrong) have the
> property that if you get one bit, you've got them all.

Well unless there's something wrong with IDEA it's fairly moot anyway.
Brute force of 128 bit key space is out of the question.

If IDEA did turn out to be weaker than thought -- say effective key
space turned out to be 64 bits -- then there would be some small value
to obscuring known plaintext.  But this doesn't argue for or against
compression -- firstly compression has I think a fixed known header
anyway, and secondly -- the weird IDEA CFB method includes a 16 bit
checksum anyway, which will mean that you have an instantly verifiable
way of reducing the need for more complicated checks to be only once
every 65536 keys tested.  Then you have the CTB on the contained data
-- a prefix ascii(1)||ascii(1) -- that's another 16 bits of known
plaintext.  And so it goes on :-)

> And, I wonder if compression doesn't actually weaken security?  Let's
> say I forward a known message with some commentary.  Since the
> compression tables will be known, it seems like the increased size of
> the message could provide some interesting information about the
> preceding commentary.  All by itself, this probably doesn't matter,
> but combined with other information it might result in a breach.  In
> any event, that which is ambiguous should be eliminated.

I don't understand this comment.

One thing that some people don't realise is that the plaintext gets
mixed into the random pool as an additional source of entropy.  In
automated environments (lots of MUAs which set +batchmode), this is
all the entropy you'll get -- except for the original key presses to
generate the key, and a small bit of entropy from the system clock.

It's fairly good normally because the way entropy is mixed in is a one
way function of the randseed.bin based on IDEA.  To make use of this
an attacker would need a copy of your randseed.bin before you sent the
target message, and to have suspicions of what the message is.  Even
after a few known messages it would still likely be possible to
attack, because the entropy added by the clock is partly predictable
from the message headers Date: field, and because it isn't that much
entropy each time.

> It would also be nice if the messages were padded to predetermined
> sizes, say 10K, 20K, 40K, etc.  (Once compression is eliminated this
> is less of an issue.)

It would be nice to have a system where you send 100k and receive 100k
per day regardless.  Say in 10 10k packets which get poured into a
mixmaster node.

> How about a one time pad mode?  One time pads are more practical than
> widely believed.  Many things we talk about we *do* want to keep quiet
> for the rest of our natural lives.  

Right.

The problem with this is that you need random numbers.  How do you
generate them?  If you use PGP's random pool, one suspects that if
IDEA becomes attackable at some point in the future the random pool
will start to look more like a predictable PRNG to the attacker.

I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
more suspect.

> It's clear that going the corporate route has to be handled with some
> care.  Given the political implications, investors have certain risks.
> 
> Also, many people seem to switch into a different mode as soon as they
> have a company.  Anything which they perceive as increasing their
> profits becomes good.  PGP, Inc. has gone this way, we've seen First
> Virtual do some unsavory things, 

What did FV do?  I know they don't use encryption, and Nathaniel
Borenstein wrote a few hype-hype articles about the _gasp_ newly
discovered security danger of "key board sniffers".

> and even good old C2 has made a few people uncomfortable.

Only thing slightly negative C2 did was to make a dubious decision in
handling of Mr Nemesis's fabricated claims about stronghold flaws.
C2 still rocks, though right?

> It doesn't have to be this way, of course.  Look at Comsec Partners.
> We don't see any "conversation recovery", lying press releases, or any
> other nonsense from them, just a beautiful product.

Quite so.  C2 hasn't got "web traffic recovery" either :-)

> What I like about selling software is that you could actually make
> good living by doing the right thing.  And, after all, if you've spent
> six months writing something, why shouldn't the users kick in a little
> money instead of freeloading?  I would like to see more crypto users
> in the habit of paying for tools and in the habit starting security
> companies.

New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.

If we get a real eternity service going (not the poor imitation perl
script up now where all traffic goes through a server unless you
install it locally) software copyright could become a thing of the
past :-)

Trust might be one way to go, rely on good will.  Or paying for
technical support.  Or mixmaster, or DC net packet delivery postage
charges.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

Warmaking is ever changing in response to the last wins
and losses. However, winners are less likely to change 
than losers, for why change a successful formula,
publish it, or a well-spun dissimulation.

As ever, unknown forms of war are in gestation, being
tested and debriefed, in military institutions and
wargames, in business, in education, in the amorphous
culture at large through legal competition and crime
and their variable gray areas where fair and unfair,
civilized rules and their breaking, are ever in grim 
and vicious dispute.

While there are piles of studies on organized and
guerilla wars of the past, the most provocative are
those that attempt to describe what's coming, how
to recognize its early warnings and what can be done
to head it off or, more likely, advance it.

The highest warmaking art is winning without physical
fighting, to outfox the enemy by demoralizing, by 
demonstrating that attack is futle, that there is no 
chance of defeating a superior force. That's why 
military exhibitionism and psy war is reputed
among military and political leaders to be as vital as 
that of brute force, as best exemplified by the Cold 
War 50-year stalemate and psychological "win-win" to
a status of Cool War.

To get a handle on what's in store, imagine that completely 
unbelievable methods of warfare, overt and covert, are 
being concocted now, composed of strategies, tactics, 
warfighters and armaments never before used -- and will 
not be revealed and understood until too late for defense. 

Try to forget everything you know about warfighting, 
crime fighting, conflict resolution, rules of engagement,
black operations, guerilla tactics, hiding among the 
people. Assume the enemy knows everything you know and
more, is better armed and smarter than you, has more 
spies among your supporters and in your most intimate 
circle.

Imagine that your toilet, your bed, your fridge, your car, 
your is triggered to explode by radio or your computer by
your password.

Consider that there will be no time to reflect and 
reconsider when things go catastrophically wrong and the
enemy is unrelenting attacking with inhuman viciousness, 
when you're defenses are crumbling and weapons failing,
when mates are squealing, dead or run away, when you can't 
stop shitting yourself, when your legs are buckling, when 
your minds racing out of control, when you're begging god
and mom for mercy and the upraised axe is descending, the
barrel back of head is firing.

Remember that who the enemy is is no secret to either side, 
on whichever side you're on, and presume that the emeny is 
more ready and able to cook your goose than you are theirs.

What actual war carnage teaches, what the current civil war 
in the US is showing, is what the TV-sofa war does not: 
nobody wins, ever, except the mindfuckers who've never gone
berzerk in combat or in the jobplace, killed friend and foe 
to save own asses.

You only win wars by never having to fight them, those 
started by weakling cowards unable to steal, cheat and lie 
well enough to satisfy their demonic lusts.

Best to outsmart the enemy in war, work and love, so that 
what you're up to is revealed only years later if ever. For
the best won wars are never known at the time, no parades,
no medals, no glory, no war stories, no memorial cemeteries
and monuments, no veteran hospitals filled with carrion, 
just peace and tranquility shooting deer, harpooning dolpins,
rip-tearing the landscape for profligate cowboy wargames
riding homicidal freeways.

We're all gonna lose our civil war in market place killings and 
road rage, thanks to today's warfighting lesson in free fire 
criminal enterprise by those who've never been shot and
shot and shot, and lost for good -- the vainglorious winners,
the losers desperate to regain glory days.

From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sun Nov  2 05:23:30 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:23:30 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <199711021310.FAA06433@sirius.infonex.com>

The producers of the show had better hope that it is not evidence of
complicity in a murder.

Let's say Tim is crazy.(*)  He told us how much he enjoyed seeing the
BATF agent take one in the face.  If this were to inspire him to try
the same thing in real life, how would the producers of the show be
less guilty than the talk show host?

After all, the most intense and graphic aspect of the episode was the
scene where the BATF agent was killed.  The people who made the show
obviously intended this to have the most impact.  It must be the
actual point of the show.  (It's well known that television watchers
are far more responsive to imagery than boring dialogue.)

The rest was obviously a cynical attempt to undermine the machinery of
justice by appearing to be on the side of law enforcement.  Bad People
try this trick all the time.  Fortunately, the jury usually isn't
fooled.

I'm looking forward to the miscreants getting the justice they so
richly deserve, aren't you?

(*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov  2 05:54:03 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:54:03 +0800
Subject: Japan's Constitution and GAK (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711021352.HAA04705@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> From: Adam Shostack 
> Subject: Japan's Constitution and GAK
> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:16:36 -0500 (EST)

> Does someone have access to a verificable copy of Japan's
> Constitution?  Someone pointed me to one on the web, which would seem
> to make difficult implemmenting international GAK systems.
> 
> http://www.leftjustified.com/leftjust/lib/sc/ht/wtp/japan.html
> 
> Article 21. Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech,
> press and all other forms of expression are guaranteed. No censorship
> shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of any means of
> communication be violated.

It also outlaws secret or under-cover police such as the Kempetei (or
however you spell it, too lazy to look it up).

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Nov  2 06:08:51 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:08:51 +0800
Subject: RSA Blows Smoke
In-Reply-To: <199711021240.HAA30685@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711021353.NAA09099@server.test.net>

William Geiger  forwards article:
> The Internet standards process is lengthy and complicated at
> best. The sticking point in RSA's efforts to date is that the task
> force will only consider non-proprietary technologies for the
> standards track. But S/MIME 2, the protocol at the heart of the
> effort, includes core RSA technologies that must be licensed.

No hope then, cool :-)

> RSA, in fact, is only one of five groups that have worked on S/MIME 2,
> which is about to be submitted by the Internet Mail Coalition to the IETF
> as an informational request for comments. Now, in order to retain its hold
> on the S/MIME technology, RSA is taking sole credit for submitting it to
> the task force, some observers claim.

Who worked on S/MIME 2?  How comes it's the same "Internet Mail
Coalition" that is "submitting S/MIME 2 to the IETF" as the one which
Paul Hoffman is slagging off RSA and S/MIME 2?

What version of S/MIME does netscape support?

> Hoffman reiterated that S/MIME 2 won't be an Internet standard
> because it relies on proprietary security technology and weak
> encryption. The Internet Mail Coalition is about to begin work on
> S/MIME 3, which will use stronger encryption and true open
> standards.

What's the point?  Why have two competing standards OpenPGP and S/MIME
3 -- does RSA hope that they will get some value from it?

Does S/MIME 3 have key escrow or CMR snooping support?

> "I hope [the announcement] hasn't sunk their chances because there
> are still a lot of people who want to do S/MIME," said
> Hoffman. "RSA's greediness could sink this, but I really hope it
> doesn't."

Before I heard about CMR additions to pgp5.x I would have said I do
sincerely hope RSA's greed sinks this.  (40 bit RC2/40 feh!)

I think I still do hope RSA's greed sinks S/MIME on average, but I
would be much more certain if this pgp5.x CMR thing could be resolved
satisfactorily.

Unfortunately PGP Inc have closed off dialogue on the topic --
apparent blanket ban on employee discussion of CMR.

So will the OpenPGP draft which Jon Callas dubbed "non political"
include CMR?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

Forwarded message:

> Date: 2 Nov 1997 05:47:36 -0000
> From: Secret Squirrel 
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)

> Adam Back wrote:
> >[Ed Note: Jim Choate wrote:]
> >> At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders
> >> associated with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular
> >> entertainment media and spin-doctor culture would have you
> >> believe. Get your fucking facts straight.
> >
> >I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was
> >low.  The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling
> >their neighbours what they could think.
> 
> It's not hard to believe that this was the case in some places and in
> some times, but a term like the "Wild West" covers a lot of time and
> territory.

It was the case in all places. The Wild West simply wasn't that wild.

> For example, in San Francisco in the early 1860s there was a very high
> murder rate, something like 1000 people were killed in one year and
> nobody was convicted.  (Forgive minor factual errors as I haven't
> studied this in awhile.)

Damn, I have this book - but not here, at my shop apparently - that was
written by a eastern newspaper report who was in California, to write the
book, and he described San Francisco in the 1800's during the first gold
rushes. He doesn't note significant violence. What really makes the book
interesting is that the reporter took the 'long way' to California - across
Panama via coastal steamers and such. Very interesting descriptions. I'll
make note and get the book next time I'm out there and post to the list for
review.

Would you happen to remember your source? Nothing I have read has ever
mentioned a 1000/year homicide count in San Francisco - ever.

>  I have also read reports of substantial
> violence in the mining communities of Nevada and California with
> minimal enforcement action taken.

That's interesting since this is a specific and commen example of free
market anarchy supporters, the low violence rates in the Cali. gold fields
during the rush. In particular J.D. Davidson & Lord W. Rees-Mogg go to great
lengths at a couple of places in their book "The Sovereign Individual" to
hold it us as a 'model anarchy'.

Me thinks something is going on here below the covers when both sides of the
discussion use the same example (which is why I intentionaly don't use it
but wait for others to bring it up).

> It seems likely to me that the low
> murder rate claim has some exceptions, even if we ignore the mutual
> atrocities between various native groups, Americans, and Mexicans.

If you read "My Life as a Indian" this might change your view of how it was
in that period. "The Texas Rangers" also has quite a lot to say about what
the Indian wars were like in Texas (not really since there really wasn't
much). It is interesting to note that when the cattle drives started in the
1800's the people oppossed didn't pick up a gun and fight as a rule, they
hired lawyers and sued the cattle owners for damages to their farms and
ranches. This one was one of the primary forces behind the closing of the
fronteir - putting up barbed wire - the cattle barons kept losing the cases.

> I would also like to see how pervasive the temperance movement was in
> the Wild West.  By the late nineteenth century my impression is that
> it was going strong in the Wild West although it possibly hadn't
> grasped the levers of power yet.

Let us know how your research goes.

> >> Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run
> >> around having gun fights all the time.
> >
> >Right!
> 
> I'm pretty sure there were gunfights, but that they happened a lot
> more quickly and a lot less formally than we see on TV.  But, I could
> believe that overall they happened infrequently.  Anybody have a
> reference?

See above books as well as the Time*Life series I mentioned in a previous
submission. I would wager that from 1800 to 1900 there were less than a
dozen face-to-face shoot-outs at high-noon, if any at all. There is also a
very good book that covers the French and Spanish explorations of the
southwest starting in the late 1500's up to the early 1800's when they were
either forced out by political agreements or force. I believe the University
of New Mexico puts it out. If I stumble across it (I'll keep an eye out for
it) I'll get identifiying info. Very good book, but a mother to read.

> I am told that knife fighting was a lot more common than is widely
> known.  A lot of poor runaways showed up to work in various mining
> towns and they were unable to afford expensive toys like guns.

Generaly people shot each other with rifles from a distance or back-shots.
But the fact is that most, stats put it as high as 60%, of all homicides
(accidental or intentional) were people shooting themselves with their own
weapon by accident. These sorts of incidents were clearly much higher than
Indians or homicide.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From brianbr at together.net  Sun Nov  2 07:58:12 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:58:12 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
Message-ID: <199711021554.KAA07184@mx02.together.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/29/97 8:08 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo 
>(7.62x29, as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles 
>chambering this popular round).
> ---
>Before you rush to correct me, I _meant_ to write "7.62x39" of
>course.
>
>(A round used by the Chinese, Soviet, and East Bloc nations, and 
>roughly equivalent to the American M-16 round, known either as the 
>.223 or 5.56mm. The NATO "7.62" is in a longer case length. 
>7.62x54, as I recall. Known in America as .308.

 If I remember right they were able to do this because the only ammo
available for 7.62x39  is from the Chinese and uses steel core
projectiles not lead. Then when Olympic Arms came out with the cutdown
weapon chambered for 7.62x39 it was able to be banned uder a
regualtion banning "armor piercing ammo that could be used in a
handgun."

   One thing though,  7.62x39 really could not be compared to the 5.56
NATO, its really more potent out to 2-300 meters; it is still a .30
cal vs 5.56 NATOs .223,  but its far less potent than 7.62 NATO
(7.62x54). The 7.62x39 was the standard caliber of ComBloc weapons for
several decades, most specifically the AK-47, AKM-44 (sniper weapon),
and SKS carbine. I think the Dragunov sniper system used a more potent
cartridge.

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  

 "Bacon and eggs: A days work for a chicken; a lifetime commitment for a 
pig"

From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Sun Nov  2 08:11:26 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:11:26 +0800
Subject: auto signing messages Re: perl from Amad3us
Message-ID: <199711021541.PAA02992@notatla.demon.co.uk>

>  #!/usr/local/bin/perl
>  $userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
>  $pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
>  $tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";
>  undef($/);
>  $post = ;
>  ($headers, at body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n", at body);
>  open(PIPE,"|$pgp -satf +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID > $tmp");

Real paranoiacs don't put temporary files in world-writeable directories.

If a hostile user symlinks your majordomo binary (or something)
to /tmp/.sig999 you're going to overwrite it with garbage.

A single purpose directory /tmp/mdsig writeable only by the
list account 'majordom' would be my preference.  (Correct owner
and mode for this directory and parents could be checked by the perl
script before it decides to write there.)

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Nov  2 08:24:50 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:24:50 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711021618.QAA00188@server.test.net>

Now, on the receiving end of Jim's argument style I come to understand
how those 100 article long flame wars that I never bother reading that
he gets involved with come about :-) Anyway, heedless to the folly,
I'll dive right in, it is quite interesting  :-)

Jim Choate  writes:
> Forwarded message:

You complained earlier about misquotation, your quotation style is
unusual, it looks like you're pressing the `forward' button rather
than `reply'.

> Pure market anarchy? What the hell is a pure market? 

A free market.  (That should have said pure _free_ market).

Crypto anarchy is free market principles left to run with no
government.  Some people claim that this would actually work pretty
well.  The theory being that it gives you, the individual, maximal
choice.  Not only can you choose whether to purchase a "boob-tube", or
to instead spend the money on other things, but you can choose
protection services, laws, social insurance services, etc.

A problem with democracy is that some decisions are taken centrally
which reduces individual choice.

> Explain how it, without an explicit bill of rights, will protect my
> rights?

A bill of rights is nice, if anybody takes any notice of it.  If
nobody takes any notice it's just a piece of paper.

Crypto anarchy tends to protect your rights because typically your
rights are worth more to you than they are for others to take from
you.  Eg. your neigbours might not want to risk your wrath in invading
your house to see if you smoke something which they don't smoke.  Ie
it hardly matters one way or another to you what your neigbours do
inside their house.  But to you it matters a lot what you're free to
do.  So you can buy a .44 hand gun fairly cheaply.  Now if your
neigbour gets nosy, you can make clear that if he tries invading your
house you will be likely to aerate his skull.  Even if he is better
armed, or whatever, his small gained value in perverse amusement and
satisfaction in annoying you probably isn't worth the risk to him that
you may succeed in blowing him away.

> Explain how we don't end up with a Microsoft that owns everything
> which effectively reduces to a commercial communism?

Difficult to predict of course.  However large corporations are
typically subsidized by democratic governments.  This is a fairly
natural outcome if you think about it, because democracy is in most
current day examples quite biased to best represent the wishes of
those in positions to make large campaign contributions.  Hence the
term `corporate welfare'.

Microsoft's current $1M/day fine is one counter example.

> Where are my 'exit' choices then?

Do you have to buy microsoft software?  I sure don't buy any.  The
microsoft software that I have used (on equipment bought by employers)
is very poor quality, I'd recommend other vendors on quality for the
most part.

> What in the world would motivate such an entity to provide me with
> the resources to be a direct competitor, something clearly not in
> its best interest for long-term survival?

What do you figure they're going to do?  Nuke their competitors?

Someone will try to break the monopoly if it is charging to high
prices.  IBM could easily compete with Bill Gates -- however I hear
they don't bother upgrading OS/2 (an infinitely superior product) to
win95/winNT compatibility because they fear government monopoly
actions against themselves.

> How will others learn the technology and its applications outside
> the purvue of these economic regulatory entities. The unlimited expansion of
> the rail-roads in the 1800's is a excellent simili for comparison for both
> what such a system would be like as well as the major problems it *doesn't*
> address. Taminy Hall ring any bells? There was a free market political
> system if there ever was one; pay me and I'll do it for you, don't and you 
> can freeze in hell.

No pay, no goods.  Sounds good to me!

(I'm not sure what the stated problem was -- too many rail roads?
Surely that's self regulating: too many becomes too competitive, too
low profit margin, the less efficient ones go bankrupt.)

> A more modern example is the history of the telecommunications
> companies which even after being broken up have now re-combined so
> that we in effect only have 3 domestic tel-comm providers, and they
> are discussing how to combine their resources.

A government supported monopoly if ever I heard of one.  (Oooh that
statement is going to get me in trouble).

> Further explain why such a system will guarantee that my views will
> at least be addressed at some level and not relegated a priori to a
> trash-heap because it goes against the market analysis of some bunch
> of bean-counters?

I can't see any reason for any of your wishes to come true if there is
no one who can profit from fulfilling those wishes.

> Who do I go to for resolution of claims against these entities, the
> self-same entities?

An independent third party arbitrator service who's arbitration
services and terms were agreed up front in the contract?

> You call that justice, equality, or even representation?

Yes.  Representation of the $, excellent.

> Explain why and how such a economic based system will guarantee my
> right to free speech or even to run a small business which I
> currently do when it is clear that I am in open competition with the
> very entities which provide me the resources to make the money?

I don't know what your business is, but you're bright I'm sure you'll
thrive in a free market.

> What is the economic motivation for the resource controlling
> entities to support my freedoms when it reduces their income?

None.  Their interests are to keep their customers happy so that they
buy more products and services.  If you aren't a customer, or they
can't see any gain in helping you they may tell you to fuck off.
Sounds fair enough to me.  You want to pass laws telling them what
they can do with their resources?

> Explain how your system prevents economic black-balling? 

Anonymous payments, no reporting requirements.  Who are they going to
black ball?  Just start another nym.

> Another implication is that we will see more of the sort of business
> stategies implimented by PGP Inc. (for example) where they want a
> percentage of your income *without* accepting a percentage of the
> risk, economic tyrany is tyrany just the same.

That's fine by me.  If PGP Inc's price is fair, they'll do well.  If
it's too high they'll be under cut, and be forced to adjust or lose
trade to competition.

> What recourse do I have if the monopolies which arise in such a
> system decide that the services or resources I need won't be
> provided?

Go into a different line of business?  Buy the resources on the black
market?  Find another supplier of those resources, start a company to
supply those resoureces yourself.

> Am I then supposed to just calmly accept becoming some prole for
> some zaibatsu? What happens when those monopolies decide that if
> they work together they can further streamline the market, and my
> going to church or taking a vacation goes against those business
> requirements?

There is a danger that if monopolies thrive it could get dangerous.
However I'm not sure even then it's going to be worse than the current
situation... 50% income tax?  Corporations will I think learn that a
satisfied happy employee works harder.  It simply isn't worth it to
them to piss you off.  Also I'm not sure large corporations are the
most efficient company size -- I suspect some of them may fragment
without generous corporate welfare programs.

> It sounds like you are supporting Hirshleifer who says:
> 
> "The mere fact of low income under anarchy... of itself provides no clear
> indication as to what is likely to happen next."

I tend to think there would be an economic boom... all those previous
unproductive government employees joining the work productive force.

> Which in effect breaks down into one of two results for individuals (which
> all free market anarchists admit openly) who don't have sufficient income
> to buy their indipendance and their say:
> 
> 1.  they devote a great deal of effort to fighting to gain control over
>     resources.
> 
> or 
> 
> 2.  they capitulate to some other party and turn over their resources
>     for food and shelter.

Sounds fair enough to me.  If an individual can't manage his own
finances, perhaps he would be better off in some kind of managed
community.  Better than having the state steal money off productive
people to fund his laziness or ineptitude.

> History would argue that people will accept neither of these as a
> solution to day-to-day living. Economists should stay out of
> politics.

That's a strange statement.  Economics is reality.  If you can't
persuade people to part with their money through their own volition,
it's theft!  People's charity is your only recourse if you are unable
to provide any services.  Taking charity at gun point tends to annoy
people, and tends to be called theft.

> It's one of the reasons that at no point in either the Declaration
> of Indipendance or the Constitution that businesses are given rights
> are even given consideration except in regards of taxation of
> inter-state commerce. People should have seperation of government
> and religion and that includes the worship of wealth.

Disolve government, that should be a good way of separating it from
lobbying by religious fantasists.  Worship of wealth is much healthier
than worship of institutionalised theft.

> > (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
> > to consider as a comparison).
> 
> If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore?

Considering what a murderous bunch of savages they were it's simply
amazing that it lasted as long as it did.

> If it provided such a superior governmental system providing the
> maximum return on investment why did it go away? Why did they
> instead elect to go with a king? 

They didn't realise what they were losing.

> Futher, explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without
> demonstrating the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual
> democracies such as ancient Greek ran into?

It doesn't have to scale.  People will form all sorts of groups with
local ordnances, the choice is in picking one which suits you.

> It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of people who are
> related, share world-models and have limited resources and quite
> another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not
> thousands of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?

If some people preferred democracy such sheeple could find a company
who would be happy to fleece them of 50% of their incomes, and
institute local ordnances such as 10 year incarceration for smoking of
selected herbs.

> >  Do you have a democracy in mind which
> > doesn't result in lots thought crimes and other "crimes" which are so
> > far removed from normal free market schelling points.  It's just a
> > natural tendency of a democracy.
> 
> Thought crimes and such are not a result of any political system but a
> result of the psychology of people.

Yes.  However democracy is a good way to ensure that some powerful
lobbying groups have increased ability to enforce their view points on
others.

> Please be so kind as to demonstrate (along with my previous
> questions I am still waiting on) how a political system effects the
> basic psychological development of the participants.

It avoids the moral bankruptcy of stealing money from people at the
point of a gun to enforce your personal preferences on other people.

People will live and let live if for no other reason than it is too
expensive to try to pressure their views on others.

> Further, explain how the belief in the resolving power of money is
> any different than the resolving power of Buddha? You seem to be
> claiming that if we pray to the all mighty dollar all will be right
> with the world.

Pray to Buddha for food and shelter if you like.  I reckon a $ is more
effective.  It also ensures that buyers and sellers tend to maximise
their happiness (they make trade choices to maximise their personal
hapiness, and they have more scope to make these choices because there
are less restrictions).

> The simply fact that one has a constitution that guarantees certain
> rights is *not* a guarantee that others won't find those rights
> threatening and want to take them away (see Hirshleifer's two
> alternatives above). And your assertion is that if we go to a free
> market anarchy then we no longer have to worry about anyone telling
> us what we can and can't do? Please be so kind as to demonstrate why
> a free market anarchy will prohibit monopolistic organizations who
> would be just as threatened by armed individuals as any other
> centralized organization?

> > > Explain to me why you believe these are valid views 
> > 
> > because they are a statement of readily observable reality?
> 
> Where do I observe them? 

Turn on your boob-tube:-) It's even observable through the brain
washing and spin doctoring.

> Give examples. Whose reality? Are you seriously claiming that there
> is one absolute reality?

Well there clearly is one reality.  Your perception of it may differ
from mine.  However I sort of presumed that you were vaguely
libertarian and had noticed some of the excesses of your
democractically elected and oh so accountable government :-)

> Governments and religions *ARE* people. There are times where I
> think you have said the stupidist thing possible and then you keep
> typing. Individuals are the ones who killed the Jews, put pepper
> spray in the eyes of demonstrators, and just about everything else
> that gets done.

Herds of people do much worse things than individuals no their own on
average.  Just following orders: I just turn on the gas, etc.

> > I say: there were less laws in 1897 US than 1997 US.
> > 
> > Tell me: do you refute that claim?
> 
> I don't know, never looked at the numbers *AND* it isn't my job to refute
> it. *IT IS* your job to prove it since it is *YOUR* claim and apparently has
> some relevance to your thesis' validity. 

I don't think the veracity is even debatable, it's obviously true.
Your point seems to be that I must now run off to a library and dig up
some references for you.  Go do it yourself, you don't seem to even
disagree with the claim!

> It is plain stupidity to make claims and not have a clue as to the
> reality.

I think it is a clear reality that the number of laws is increasing
over time in the US.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

 I forwarded a copy of the above article to my friend Roger who lives and 
works in Thailand and this was his response ... I thought it might be of 
interest to the list.

---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
Date:        11/02  9:13 AM
Received:    11/02  10:39 AM
From:        Roger Adams, rogera at mozart.inet.co.th
To:          Brian B. Riley, brianbr at together.net

>Brian B. Riley wrote:
>>I came across this piece the other day and am rereading it for the 
>>fourth or fifth time. "Food for thought" doesn't even begin to 
>>describe it in my rarely very humble opinion. 
>  (snip)
>>Pol Pot Speaks
>>
>> On Oct. 16 Nate Thayer, an American correspondent for the weekly 
>>Far Eastern Economic Review, conducted the first known interview 
>>since 1979 with Cambodian Communist Pol Pot. The New York Times 
>>printed excerpts Oct. 23. 

>Brian,
>
>Nate is actually based in Bangkok and I have met him quite a few 
>times in one of my favourite watering holes. I was there last Friday 
>(31st Oct) and was told that he had gone back to Phnom Penh to 
>confront Hun Sen for calling him a liar and questioning the validity 
>of his interview with Pol Pot. Nate apparently got very upset at 
>this so he decided to sort it out. All of us who know him feel that 
>he is risking his life by going back to Cambodia at this time. The 
>situation there is very unstable and life is very cheap. We all 
>hope he makes it back safely.
>
>Just for some background information, Nate is a very intense and 
>proud fellow who takes his profession very seriously indeed. He is 
>the only journalist to have been able to get close enough to Pol 
>Pot (by close, I mean in very near proximity) to be able to watch 
>and film him being tried by his fellow commanders and to interview 
>him. A very facinating chap and very likeable. I am sure you came 
>across some of these types during the Vietnam War.
>
>Will keep you posted.
>
>Roger  

----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  

  "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The
   savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe.
   Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
    -- Ayn Rand - The Fountainhead (1943)

From 1gh9TbMi2 at gen.com  Mon Nov  3 00:38:35 1997
From: 1gh9TbMi2 at gen.com (1gh9TbMi2 at gen.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:38:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Software
Message-ID: <1yB6APE@so2tUe7>

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From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov  2 09:20:31 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:20:31 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
In-Reply-To: <199711021554.KAA07184@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: 

At 8:54 AM -0700 11/2/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:

>On 10/29/97 8:08 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:
>
>>The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo
>>(7.62x29, as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles
>>chambering this popular round).
>> ---
>>Before you rush to correct me, I _meant_ to write "7.62x39" of
>>course.
>>
>>(A round used by the Chinese, Soviet, and East Bloc nations, and
>>roughly equivalent to the American M-16 round, known either as the
>>.223 or 5.56mm. The NATO "7.62" is in a longer case length.
>>7.62x54, as I recall. Known in America as .308.
>
> If I remember right they were able to do this because the only ammo
>available for 7.62x39  is from the Chinese and uses steel core
>projectiles not lead. Then when Olympic Arms came out with the cutdown
>weapon chambered for 7.62x39 it was able to be banned uder a
>regualtion banning "armor piercing ammo that could be used in a
>handgun."

Vinnie M. sent me a note also saying this. I guess the Eastern European
stuff is available--for now.

Some in the gun community are vilifying Olyarms for introducing this OA-93
"assault pistol" (the name often applied to politically incorrect pistols
like this). As if Olyarms should have been cowed into not introducing a
product out of fear that Clinton would abuse his authority to ban Chinese
ammo.

>   One thing though,  7.62x39 really could not be compared to the 5.56
>NATO, its really more potent out to 2-300 meters; it is still a .30
>cal vs 5.56 NATOs .223,  but its far less potent than 7.62 NATO
>(7.62x54). The 7.62x39 was the standard caliber of ComBloc weapons for
>several decades, most specifically the AK-47, AKM-44 (sniper weapon),
>and SKS carbine. I think the Dragunov sniper system used a more potent
>cartridge.

I've never owned anything in 7.62x39. I hear the SKS rifles are pretty good
for $150, or whatever, and a lot of people have bought them. To me they
look a little crude. And since I can afford things out of the AR-15 line....

(Debate rages in rec.guns and elsewhere about the relative merits of the
cartridges. I certainly see more variants of the AR-15 here in America,
more use by tactical and law enforcement teams, and more accessories. But
maybe I'm not looking in the right places.)

One of the more interesting images I ever saw was a photo in one of the gun
mags of a friendly meeting in the U.S. between Eugene Stoner, principal
designer of the AR-15 (the M-16 in its military version) and Mikhail
Kalashnikov, whose name needs no further explanation.

I suppose tree-hugging peaceniks would be aghast at a meeting between these
two merchants of death. I, being an antigovernment type, was nevertheless
impressed.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov  2 09:48:49 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:48:49 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <199711021310.FAA06433@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: 

At 6:10 AM -0700 11/2/97, Mix wrote:

>Tim May wrote:
>>Since when is broadcasting a radio or television show or writing an
>>essay evidence of complicity in a murder, even when it "pushes
>>someone over the line"?
>
>The producers of the show had better hope that it is not evidence of
>complicity in a murder.
>
>Let's say Tim is crazy.(*)  He told us how much he enjoyed seeing the
>BATF agent take one in the face.  If this were to inspire him to try
>the same thing in real life, how would the producers of the show be
>less guilty than the talk show host?

According to the dubious logic of that episode, no doubt they would say
they were innocent because they had not _met_ me on any occasions. If,
however, the prosecution could produce a witness saying she had seen me in
the company of the writer, director, producer, etc., then their bacon would
be cooked. By the logic of their episode, of course.

>
>(*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
>The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
>

It used to be called "free speech."

Nowadays, admitting that one has guns is fed baiting. Admitting that one
will defend one's self is fed baiting. Admtting that one has read certain
books is fed baiting. And using unbreakable crypto is fed baiting.

Ah, what has the world come to?

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sun Nov  2 09:56:49 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:56:49 +0800
Subject: cute
Message-ID: <199711021741.JAA23263@sirius.infonex.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> There was a discussion a little while ago suggesting that toad.com had
> been compromised by people who were sowing dissension by partially
> distributing certain messages.  Had toad signed all of its messages,
> it would be possible to obtain evidence supporting this hypothesis
> without relying entirely on the word of people we may not know.

How do signed messages deal with the incompleat distribushun problem?
If legit signed messages are not sent to half the list, what does
the sig gain us?

> Had somebody compromised toad, they would still have to correctly sign
> messages.

But, depending on the compromise, this could be possible.

> > This would also prevent an attack where somebody forges mail from a
> > cypherpunks list machine to flush out identities.  If the attacker
> > sends a unique message to every person, he or she will be able to
> > break an identity if the message is replied to on the list.

Thats why its a good ideal to missquote peaple.   And to only reply
from the account you read on.  And to use remalers.

Monty Cantspell
Editor in Chief
Groan Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/groan_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantspell_10.htm

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From kelsey at plnet.net  Sun Nov  2 10:11:18 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:11:18 +0800
Subject: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia
Message-ID: <199711021808.MAA30033@email.plnet.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 10/30/97 ##
  Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia ]

>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:35:41 -0800
>From: Bill Stewart 
>Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia

>At this year's CFP one evening we were playing the game of
>"You want to cause maximum disruption to the US
>infrastructure, and you've got 100 small explosive devices.
>Where do you put them?" Much creativity was displayed and
>substantial amounts of testosterone reveled in, and the
>overall conclusion was that we'd be in deep trouble if
>anybody even vaguely competent wanted to monkeywrench the
>system.

I agree.  This has always been my reaction to the infowar
folks--anyone who understands how to attack a system can
look around and find hundreds of fairly easy targets.  Some
of these targets just *can't* be protected in a
cost-effective way.  (Note the way the IRA and various
Palestinian terrorists still manage to find soft targets,
despite the fact that their intended victims have spent
years and millions of dollars hardening the obvious soft
points.)

>After that, we played the Russell-Brand-like game of
>"Destruction is easy.  What would you do if you wanted to
>create the most joy in the world instead."  That was harder
>:-)

Of course.  Any moron with a hammer can ruin a car engine;
it takes a skilled mechanic to fix one.  The same applies
almost everywhere--destroying something takes a fraction of
the skill of building or maintaining it.

>				Thanks!
>					Bill
>Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
>Regular Key PGP Fingerprint
>                D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

From kelsey at plnet.net  Sun Nov  2 10:11:21 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:11:21 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: Perry's Crypto List, Cypherpunks ## Date: 11/01/97 ##
  Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol ]

I've been working on various copyright protection schemes
from time to time over the last three years.  The general
goal is (naturally enough) to make some digital data hard to
copy without some kind of permission or payment or record
being made.  Thus, a user may have a book (mostly text,
perhaps with some illustrations) he is reading on his
computer, and the publisher wants to make sure that that
user can't give copies of the book to all his friends, or
post it to the net, or whatever.

I'm convinced that there will never be a secure solution to
this problem.  (I can't imagine that this is news to anyone
on these two lists.)  I have somewhat mixed feelings about
this--I'd hate to see my favorite authors and musicians
either waiting tables for a living, or having to insert
references to their sponsors' products in their stories.
(``And then he bought her a Coke, and her eyes lit up.'') On
the other hand, a widespread copyright commerce system that
really works is most of the infrastructure for a massive
censorship mechanism.  (Reset the price of books you don't
like to a billion dollars US per copy made.)

Suppose I want to get paid for the next chapter of my
thrilling novel.  A whole bunch of people want to see me
publish my next chapter.  So, I make some statement like
``When I get $1,000 in donations, I will publish
the next chapter in this novel.''  Readers can go to my
website, see how much further there is to go, and donate
money to the cause of getting my novel out.  Note that I,
the author, don't care *who* pays to get the next chapter
out; nor do I care about free riders.  Instead, I just care
that my $1,000 pot gets filled.  When it does, I publish the
next chapter.

There are basically three things that can go wrong here:

a.  I set my price too high, and never reach my amount.  (It
might be possible to decrease the total amount required
later, though it would be a little questionable to do this
often.)

b.  I set my price too low, and get lots less than I could
have gotten.  (This is self-correcting.)

c.  I get my amount filled, but still don't publish the next
chapter of my novel.

The trust issues, especially with (c), are worth
considering.  The obvious (clunky) way to solve this is to
have a trusted third party handle the whole transaction.  We
will call him the Publisher.

Now, I submit my novel, or parts of it, to the Publisher.
He has his editors review it to see if it's worth trying to
sell (like any publisher, albeit with rather low
printing/binding costs).  If so, he and I agree on a price
and split.  For unknown authors, the first several chapters,
or even the first few books, may be freely available, in
hopes of drawing in customers.  For known authors, perhaps
the first chapter or two is free, and the rest go through
the payment mechanism.  He has my whole novel, and on his
web site, he makes available, say, chapters 1-3 for free,
and chapter 4 will become available when $1000 is donated to
the cause of getting it out, or on January 1, 1998.

If enough readers want to hurry up and see the next chapter,
they can make a payment.  The publisher needs no
identification for this, so anonymous payment systems work
quite well.  The Publisher holds the payments in escrow
until the chapter is released, and then sends me my cut.

I think I can build a similar protocol without the Publisher
taking anything but a backup role--he gets the money
transfers and holds them in escrow, and if the chpater isn't
released, either he can release it or he can return the
money, or donate it to some charity, or whatever.  (The
whatever has to be spelled out beforehand, and the money
mustn't go to the author, directly or indirectly.)

This is obviously not a complete solution.  The neat thing
is, it can be used with other systems.  (Thus, if you want
to include a shareware/guiltware message on each copy, or
try to use some kind of software or hardware protection for
the chapters once they're published, then this system
doesn't alter that much--the donors simply get prepurchased
copies of the book, released on the normal release date.)

Similar ideas may work in other areas.  In software, I
suspect it would be a way of getting a feel from the market
for what new features are wanted.  In music, perhaps this
could be used for individual songs, or maybe it would work
better for whole albums.  Television and movie serials could
work this way (it works for PBS, doesn't it?).  Some books,
music, and movies would be *awful* to release this way,
though.  I wish I had a more useful general solution, but
maybe this will help a little.

Comments?  This is clearly not all that new, but I've never
seen it in a crypto context from anyone but me.

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

From kelsey at plnet.net  Sun Nov  2 10:15:13 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:15:13 +0800
Subject: Kyl's internet gambling bill
Message-ID: <199711021810.MAA30056@email.plnet.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 10/30/97 ##
  Subject: Kyl's internet gambling bill ]

>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:31:21 -0800
>From: Steve Schear 
>Subject: Re: Kyl S-474 Anti-Gambling Bill passes committee

[Stuff about Kyl's anti-internet gambling bill.]

>Prediction: this bill will be about as effective as
>outlawing spring.

>About 20% of gamblers are 'problem' types who now regularly
>game illegally and could careless about the penalties.  Once
>all on-line casinos offer real and 'play-money' wagering and
>strong crypto it will be neigh impossible for the Feds to
>know or prove which players are wagering real money and
>therefore gambling.  Once Onion and Crowds routers are
>operational and widespread the Feds won't even be able to
>find the casinos, and even if they do they may not be able
>to shut them down (especially if they are built in a
>distributed fasion).

I always find these laws entertaining.  In Missouri, we have
state-run gambling in the lottery system, and state-licenced
gambling on the riverboat casinos.  Our Attorney General has
been very vocal about shutting down internet casinos, to
protect Missouri's citizens from being exploited.  His
concern for the welfare of problem gamblers in our state
is touching.  Odd that he isn't worried about those same
citizens being taken advantage of by the in-state
operations.

Of course, the real issue here isn't about protecting
citizens from themselves, or even about keeping citizens
from being cheated by the electronic equivalent of weighted
dice.  It's about protecting the financial interests of
those who now benefit from having local gambling monopolies.
The state gets quite a bit of money from the lottery, and
the companies that have invested in building riverboat
casinos here are surely concerned about potential
competition via the internet.  The cities that have
riverboat casinos typically get some part of the money made
from them, which nicely brings those city governments into
line.  Presumably, something similar is happening with
various states' Indian Reservations opening casinos.

It's an interesting side-point that really anonymous
communications and payment systems applied to gambling
systems mean not only that *governments* can't shut down
competing gambling schemes, but also that organized crime
can't shut them down, whether through influencing corrupt
governments to try to shut them down, or through direct
action.

Ob Crypto:  There are cryptographic gambling protocols that
can be verified (given some set of assumptions about
underlying operations) to be fair.  Thus, it's possible for
a gambling operation to make their client software freely
available in source, and allow people to see what it does
and review it for fairness.  If you find a reviewer or two
you trust, you can ask them to digitially sign the
executable they got when they compiled the code, and refuse
to use any other code.  This gives you a level of certainty
that you're not being cheated by weighted dice that you
simply can't get in physical casinos.  (Sure, government
agencies inspect those casinos, but the inspectors aren't
incorruptible, and they can't be everywhere at once.)

For a simple example, consider a situation where Alice and
Bob need to agree on a shared seed.  Assume they already
have established a secure (encrypted and authenticated)
session. They can easily generate a new shared seed by doing
something like this:

1. Alice generates random R_0 and sends hash(R_0) to Bob.
2. Bob generates random R_1 and sends hash(R_1) to Alice.
3. Alice sends R_0 to Bob.
4. Bob sends R_1 to Alice.
5. Alice and Bob each generate their shared seed, R_0 XOR R_1.

If the hash function doesn't leak information about its
inputs, and if it is collision-resistant, then this protocol
should work.  If either party generates a random number,
then the resulting seed is random, regardless of the other
party's input.  (You still have to work out administrative

issues, like what happens when communications fail
conveniently just after Alice sends Bob R_0, but these are
easy enough to solve.)

>--Steve

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

From brianbr at together.net  Sun Nov  2 11:41:39 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 03:41:39 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
Message-ID: <199711021935.OAA25880@mx01.together.net>

On 11/2/97 11:14 AM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

 [snip]

>Some in the gun community are vilifying Olyarms for introducing this OA-93
>"assault pistol" (the name often applied to politically incorrect pistols
>like this). As if Olyarms should have been cowed into not introducing a
>product out of fear that Clinton would abuse his authority to ban Chinese
>ammo.

  I would not villify them, but I would wonder if they considered that 
aspect when they decided to market the weapon.

>>   One thing though,  7.62x39 really could not be compared to the 5.56
>>NATO, its really more potent out to 2-300 meters; it is still a .30
>>cal vs 5.56 NATOs .223,  but its far less potent than 7.62 NATO
>>(7.62x54). The 7.62x39 was the standard caliber of ComBloc weapons for
>>several decades, most specifically the AK-47, AKM-44 (sniper weapon),
>>and SKS carbine. I think the Dragunov sniper system used a more potent
>>cartridge.
>
>I've never owned anything in 7.62x39. I hear the SKS rifles are pretty good
>for $150, or whatever, and a lot of people have bought them. To me they
>look a little crude. And since I can afford things out of the AR-15 line....

 Having faced down the SKS carbine in Nam on a couple of occasions, I can 
say its a rugged built and seemingly idiot proof weapon of reasonable 
accuracy out to 2-300 meters tops. Many versions come equipped with a 
three-fluted bayonette thats considerably longer than what we used and 
its *most* impressive when some guy comes out of the brush with one in 
your direction ... I got a chance to examine the blade from a few inches 
when I deflected his thrust and delivered a blow of my own ... I would 
just a soon have remained in blissful ignorance of the details ... 

>(Debate rages in rec.guns and elsewhere about the relative merits of the
>cartridges. I certainly see more variants of the AR-15 here in America,
>more use by tactical and law enforcement teams, and more accessories. But
>maybe I'm not looking in the right places.)

   The 7.62x39 really isn't much of a cartridge, its not potent enough to 
justify its size, 7.62x54 is more potent and its not small enough to 
capitalize on its wimpiness, 5.56 NATO delivers as much oomph in much 
less size. 

  It is relatively simple to appreciate the size difference. When the 
standard issue service rifle was the M-14 (7.62x54 NATA) the standard 
load for a soldier was six(6) magazines of twenty plus the seventh in the 
rifle. When the M-16 became the standard service rifle, the same ammo 
load weight permitted twenty (20) magazines of twenty plus a twenty-first 
in the rifle.
140 rounds versus 420 rounds - biiigggg difference

>One of the more interesting images I ever saw was a photo in one of the gun
>mags of a friendly meeting in the U.S. between Eugene Stoner, principal
>designer of the AR-15 (the M-16 in its military version) and Mikhail
>Kalashnikov, whose name needs no further explanation.
>
>I suppose tree-hugging peaceniks would be aghast at a meeting between these
>two merchants of death. I, being an antigovernment type, was nevertheless
>impressed.

 I too was quite impressed with that meeting, but not surprising. I 
brought a prisoner in once, an NVA regular, a major, and spent several 
days in the field with him before we could get lifted out. He spoke 
excellant English and wonderful education and a wry wit. I found I 
related better to him than I did to most of the upper ranks in the 1st 
MarDiv in DaNang ... almost had half a mind to say 'screw the suits' and 
let him go. Of course therein lies the problem of 'the suits' ... so long 
as they can get us to think of the enemy as 'gooks' or 'ragheads' or 
'krauts' they can con us into killing them ... but as soon as you realize 
they have wives and kids and jobs and bills and neighbors and aunts and 
uncles and nephews, in short, are just like use save for the cut of their 
uniform ... its gets a lot harder to see just why you should kill them 
(unless of course they are pointing a gun at you!)

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  

 "The strongest evidence of intelligent life on other planets is that
  they haven't come here yet.' -- from somewhere on The Net

From azur at netcom.com  Sun Nov  2 12:45:38 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:45:38 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 

>> (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
>> to consider as a comparison).
>
>If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore? If it provided such
>a superior governmental system providing the maximum return on investment
>why did it go away? Why did they instead elect to go with a king? Futher,
>explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without demonstrating
>the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual democracies such as
>ancient Greek ran into? It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of
>people who are related, share world-models and have limited resources and
>quite another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not thousands
>of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?

So, a solution is to encourage (e.g., through technological means) the
break-up of nation-states into smaller geo-political groupings.

--Steve

From azur at netcom.com  Sun Nov  2 12:45:41 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:45:41 +0800
Subject: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711010306.VAA27799@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 

>>>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
>>>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
>>>      location of gunshots.
>
>This would be a network of microphones and processing stations which could
>perform a reverse-GPS location analysis of sounds picked up by 3 or more
>microphones.  (Sounds common to 2 microphones could be localized with a
>lower degree of accuracy if directional microphone arrays are used.)  Yet
>another instance of Big Brother technology that is of limited value to the
>police.  Of course, this means that you will have the police responding to
>every backfiring car, which will dampen their enthusiasm for responding
>unless full-auto fire or a prolonged gunfight is overheard.  Of course, if
>you have a silenced weapon and some cherry bombs with cigarette time-delay
>fuses, you can use this system to docoy the police into the wrong
>neighborhood.  Or if you confine yourself to single-shot assassinations
>near busy streets, it will probably be written off as a vehicle backfire,
>especially if you are doing a drive-by with a suppressed shotgun.  (Not
>possible to silence completely, but certainly possible to quiet to the
>point that it wouldn't attract undue notice along a busy street.)
>
>In order for this system to be worth anything, it would have to be able to:
>1.  Use voice recognition techniques to classify the type of weapon
>(primarily useful for machine guns--it could evaluate the frequency
>characteristics, rate of fire, etc. to distinguish between an AK-47 and an
>UZI) sufficiently well to distinguish between small-arms fire, fireworks
>(cherry bombs, M-80's, etc) and vehicle backfires.
>

In late 1994 several members of the Wireless Communication Alliance, an
organization related to Joint Venture Silicon Valley, gave a presentation
on such a system for which they were seeking LE/government funding.  As I
recall the pilot was for East Palo Alto (for those of you not familiar, its
a poor neighborhood, mostly minority, neighborhood between the Hwy 101 and
the Bay).  The wireless infrastructure was proposed to reduce costs to
practical levels by providing an inexpensive link to more centralized
processing. I haven't followed up and don't know if the project went
anywhere.

If reliable and used as presented it could reduce LE response to some
violent crimes. The prospects for misuse are truly scary.

--Steve

From equit at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  3 04:56:42 1997
From: equit at hotmail.com (equit at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:56:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: $600 Worth of FREE Software!
Message-ID: <199710311601.LAC19172@mail.nosuchplace.com>

 Hello,

You don't want to trash this one! I "WILL" give you absolutely "Free" a
New Software called "Freedom", that sells for $400. I WILL NOT ASK FOR
ANY MONEY!

Freedom software allows you to extract email addresses from the internet,
classified ads, newsgroups, AOL subscribers, Etc.

Freedom has many features, including easy extractions of the addresses 
you need to flag for removal. You can extract a "batch" of a few
hundred, or a "catagory" of thousands at a time.

BONUS!! Now I also provide you with a free Check software,"Checker", a
$200.00 value that allows you to take checks by Fax, email, and phone!  "FREE"

Will your business "EXPLODE"?

You bet it will!               IT HAS TO !!!!

You will become a part of a  DOWNLINE THAT HAS THIS CAPABLITY!

Along with "Freedom" and "Checker", I provide you with a "GREAT", "FREE
BUSINESS", that you can promote on the internet and off. Additional BONUS - 
you will receive one of the cheapest long distance rates available today!!

For quick and  FREE  details, just send an email with FREEDOM in the subject 
line to:

and you will receive information about this exciting opportunity right away!

I look forward to your response.  You may email me at:  

				cmillerton at hotmail.com 

for an immediate  response for more info.

Thanks,          

From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Sun Nov  2 13:38:51 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:38:51 +0800
Subject: cute.
Message-ID: <3758d87f6140a14b69fb75dda10350ef@squirrel>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1 a.k.a Amad3us wrote:
>> I'm not sure a timestamp matters that much for "authenticating" your
>> key.  After all, you don't own "Amad3us", you own key 0x4D162BBE1.
>
>Yes.  Except for minor nit: 0x4D162BBE1 is susceptible to a
>0xdeadbeef attack, anyone can generate another key with that keyID.
>Even the fingerprint is spoofable.  But the combination is truly hard
>to spoof, and this I do own:
>0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1 (fingerprint/keyID).

Uhhh... that's what I meant to say.  (Although I can't think of a
circumstance where the fingerprint matters if the reputation is bound
to the key only.)

While we're on the subject, why are key IDs used anyway?  People don't
really use them for anything.  Software might as well use the complete
description of the key internally.

For that matter, I'm not sure the the e-mail address and user name are
good things to associate with the key.  The e-mail address changes all
the time.  The user name should be assigned by you as part of the
authentication procedure, not by the person offering the key.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  2 13:38:55 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:38:55 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <199711022133.PAA21644@multi26.netcomi.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>According to the dubious logic of that episode, no doubt they would
>say they were innocent because they had not _met_ me on any
>occasions. If, however, the prosecution could produce a witness
>saying she had seen me in the company of the writer, director,
>producer, etc., then their bacon would be cooked. By the logic of
>their episode, of course.

That's what their smart alecky lawyer will claim, anyway.  I am
confident that a jury made up of good red blooded Americans will see
through this sham.

The producers of the show certainly know that there are terrorist
elements and psychopaths who would be watching.  They know that these
people will be turned on by the imagery of a BATF agent being brutally
murdered.  They could have told the same story using different
imagery.  Instead of using graphic violence, they could have expressed
the idea of the BATF agent getting killed with a heartrending scene of
his wife getting the phone call.  That certainly would not have been
inflammatory.

But they didn't.  The opted to go with a glorification of the act.
Why?  Incompetence won't wash - anybody getting to national TV has
spent years in the business and is a total pro.  They know what effect
they are having.

They glorified this act of violence to encourage others to do the
same.  Where is the FBI?  Why isn't anybody doing anything?  If the
life of only one BATF agent is spared, it will be worthwhile!  Think
of his poor wife and kids.

>>(*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
>>The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
>>
>
>It used to be called "free speech."
>
>Nowadays, admitting that one has guns is fed baiting. Admitting that
>one will defend one's self is fed baiting. Admtting that one has read
>certain books is fed baiting. And using unbreakable crypto is fed
>baiting.
>
>Ah, what has the world come to?

Remailers?  ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  2 13:43:00 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:43:00 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
Message-ID: <199711022136.PAA21739@multi26.netcomi.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>> My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
>> message is signed, and my key is included within the message for those of you 
>> who have software that discards the non signed portion.  (If you don't know 
>> how to extract my key, copy it and fix the broken dashed line, or use a 
>> keyserver)
>
>Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
>this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows
>this. He simply hopes that there are some people that don't know this. The
>idea behind the original post and others like it over the last few days is
>to spread FUD about PGP 5.0 after other attacks failed for lack of merrit.
>If you repeat a lie often enough, eventually some people will believe you. 
>PSYOPS 101. Let's not fall for it.

Actually, the cry of "Infowar!" itself could be used as a disruptive
technique.  It undermines dialogue.  It breeds suspicion and paranoia.
It encourages people to think of those who disagree with them as The
Enemy.  It can be used by a mole for cover.

Gee, come to think of it, isn't Lucky the one who keeps trying to
demoralize everyone by saying that Big Brother is inevitable?

And, who was it that was waving around firearms at a Cypherpunks
meeting?  Isn't that a classic provocateur technique?  (See the Earth
First experience, for example.)

Now, I think it's unlikely that Lucky is a mole.  I'm just trying to
show that once you start witch hunting, it turns out that the supply
of witches tends to be highly responsive to demand.

The Back Technique of fighting Infowar seems to be effective.  Treat
the claims of the suspected Infowarrior as if they are credible and
carefully explain why there is an inaccuracy.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From tcmay at got.net  Sun Nov  2 14:13:28 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:13:28 +0800
Subject: ISP is not an important part of identity
In-Reply-To: <3758d87f6140a14b69fb75dda10350ef@squirrel>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 2:28 PM -0700 11/2/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:

>For that matter, I'm not sure the the e-mail address and user name are
>good things to associate with the key.  The e-mail address changes all
>the time.  The user name should be assigned by you as part of the
>authentication procedure, not by the person offering the key.
>
>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine

Yep, I get people asking me to "prove" that the "Tim May" who uses the
got.net ISP is the same "Tim May" as "tcmay at netcom.com," which got
associated with my original 1992 key generation.

I try to tell them, "I'm that same entity, whoever that is, if I can sign
messages with that key."

They somehow think the tcmay at netcom.com vs. tcmay at got.net dichotomy is
what's really important. I then ignore them.

- --Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 14:15:39 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:15:39 +0800
Subject: effective GACK fighting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711022210.XAA19506@basement.replay.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Blanc wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>>But, why do we need a lawyer? We have the right to represent ourselves, why
>>let somebody who has a intimate stake in the status quo represent us?
>
>Well, first of all I was being facetious, because of how people are always
>saying we need Leadership (tm) and need to elect another President in order
>to have a more Perfect Union.   But I said we need a "good" lawyer - a
>libertarian lawyer - because I expect that it would take someone who had
>studied the legal system and made it their project to be well-educated and
>articulate on these matters, to be able to successfully represent the
>Consitutional values which we subscribe to.
[snip]

Fortunately some of these "good" lawyers already exist at the Institute for 
Justice.  Basically, they are a libertarian version of the ACLU.  They've 
accomplished some good things and deserve the support (read $$$) of 
freedom-minded individuals everywhere.  (note: I'm not connected with them
in any way; just letting the cypherpunk community know about an organization
in sync with our views)

 "If you seek a courtroom champion for individual liberty, free market
  solutions, and limited government, look only as far as the Institute
  for Justice.  When politicians pass sweepingly intrusive laws and
  bureaucrats build their empires of paperwork and power, only the
  Institute for Justice brings them to account in court."
  -- http://www.InstituteforJustice.org/

>>Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
>>Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
>>relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
>>the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. 
>
>I don't know.   But this is the sort of issue I was thinking of.

Bill Benson has done some extensive research (his book is called The Law 
That Never Was) regarding the 16th Amendment (the so-called Income Tax 
Amendment) and how it was ratified.  According to the information he has 
uncovered through exhaustive research in D.C. and all of the state capitals 
of the then 48 states, the 16th Amendment was never ratified by 3/4ths of 
the states. (see http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html for more info)

Friends of mine have spoken to Mr. Benson about this, and he says that the 
courts won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  He even sells a package (or at 
least he was selling it back in 1995) of legal information about the 
non-ratification of the 16th that can be used as a defense in an income tax 
case.  According to Mr. Benson (in 1995), each of the cases was dropped when 
the defense made it clear they were going to argue their defense based on 
this point.

I understand that folks in the "patriot" movement have tried to take this to 
the Supreme Court without success.  The Court refused to hear it.

Assuming Mr. Benson's research is accurate and legitimate, the 16th didn't 
even come close to being ratified and is truly a Law That Never Was.  Think 
about that next April 15th...the IRS's "lawful" authority is based upon a
legal fiction.  That's why it's called >voluntary< compliance.

Nerthus

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Nov  2 14:29:33 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:29:33 +0800
Subject: Vote CypherPunk!
Message-ID: <199711022212.XAA19710@basement.replay.com>

At 20:24 -0500 10/31/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>* In August, the Boston Globe profiled the Taiwan National
>Assembly (which specializes in constitutional issues), where it is
>fairly common for the minority New Party to filibuster by merely
>grabbing the microphone and physically restraining majority-party
>members so that they cannot call for votes.  Fights break out,
>sometimes bloody ones.  Said a local political science professor, "It
>may not be civilized, but it's efficient" because citizens respond by
>re-electing the aggressive legislators.  

I'd probably have a lot more respect for Congresscritters if they cared
enough about any issue to physically fight about it. Maybe we could issue
them weapons, too; then term limits would become a moot point. (Who would
win if Jesse Helms and Diane Feinstein had a fight to the death? The 
American citizens.)

A suitable quote from Monty Python:

    We would like to apologize for the way politicians are
    represented in this programme. It was never our intention  to
    imply that politicians are weak-kneed, political time-servers
    who are concerned more with their personal vendettas and
    private power struggles than the problems of government, nor
    to suggest at any point that they sacrifice their credibility
    by denying free debate on vital matters in the mistaken
    impression that party unity comes before the well-being of
    the people they supposedly represent, nor to imply at any
    stage that they are squabbling little toadies without an
    ounce of concern for the vital social problems of today. Nor
    indeed do we intend that viewers should consider them as
    crabby ulcerous self-seeking vermin with furry legs and an
    addiction to alcohol and certain explicit sexual practices
    which some people might find offensive. We are sorry if this
    impression has come across.

In fact, they could run this at the top of every hour on C-SPAN. I'll call
my cable company.

From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov  2 14:35:43 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:35:43 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199711022231.QAA06224@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:10:11 +0100 (MET)
> To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> Fortunately some of these "good" lawyers already exist at the Institute for 
> Justice.  Basically, they are a libertarian version of the ACLU.  They've 
> accomplished some good things and deserve the support (read $$$) of 
> freedom-minded individuals everywhere.  (note: I'm not connected with them
> in any way; just letting the cypherpunk community know about an organization
> in sync with our views)
> 
>  "If you seek a courtroom champion for individual liberty, free market
>   solutions, and limited government, look only as far as the Institute
>   for Justice.  When politicians pass sweepingly intrusive laws and
>   bureaucrats build their empires of paperwork and power, only the
>   Institute for Justice brings them to account in court."
>   -- http://www.InstituteforJustice.org/

Thanks, I'll check them out as I am unaware of their position.

> >>Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
> >>Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
> >>relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
> >>the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. 
> >
> >I don't know.   But this is the sort of issue I was thinking of.
> 
> Bill Benson has done some extensive research (his book is called The Law 
> That Never Was) regarding the 16th Amendment (the so-called Income Tax 
> Amendment) and how it was ratified.  According to the information he has 
> uncovered through exhaustive research in D.C. and all of the state capitals 
> of the then 48 states, the 16th Amendment was never ratified by 3/4ths of 
> the states. (see http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html for more info)
> 
> Friends of mine have spoken to Mr. Benson about this, and he says that the 
> courts won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  He even sells a package (or at 
> least he was selling it back in 1995) of legal information about the 
> non-ratification of the 16th that can be used as a defense in an income tax 
> case.  According to Mr. Benson (in 1995), each of the cases was dropped when 
> the defense made it clear they were going to argue their defense based on 
> this point.
> 
> I understand that folks in the "patriot" movement have tried to take this to 
> the Supreme Court without success.  The Court refused to hear it.
> 
> Assuming Mr. Benson's research is accurate and legitimate, the 16th didn't 
> even come close to being ratified and is truly a Law That Never Was.  Think 
> about that next April 15th...the IRS's "lawful" authority is based upon a
> legal fiction.  That's why it's called >voluntary< compliance.

Actualy, his research is one of the reasons that I am so interested in an
actual lawsuit.

What if somebody were to go for several years with no contact at all with
the IRS, and no intention of making contact. Then when approached that
person makes enough noise to guarantee that they will be going to court.
What would it then take to bush-whack the beggars? What is the absolute last
point that your defence must be revealed prior to your presenting your case
to the jury? The reason I use the first person is because to me it seems
critical that no lawyer is actualy used in the defence. As I understand it,
and I ain't no lawyer, there are some actions that a defendent may do if
representing themselves that lawyers are prohibited from doing. Among them
is stating the obvious fact, if the jurors don't believe the law is just
they may refuse to find for that reason. If the Constitution and the actual
record of votes in concert with the general feeling of excess regarding this
matter doesn't prove the case, what will?

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Nov  2 14:46:08 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:46:08 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711022240.QAA06284@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 19:55:02 -0800
> From: Steve Schear 
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (fwd)

> >If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore? If it provided such
> >a superior governmental system providing the maximum return on investment
> >why did it go away? Why did they instead elect to go with a king? Futher,
> >explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without demonstrating
> >the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual democracies such as
> >ancient Greek ran into? It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of
> >people who are related, share world-models and have limited resources and
> >quite another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not thousands
> >of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?
> 
> So, a solution is to encourage (e.g., through technological means) the
> break-up of nation-states into smaller geo-political groupings.

Technological, societal, political, religous, whatever non-confrontational
(ie avoid the use of force unless physicaly attacked) mechanism that is
present in human societies. 

Exactly! See that is the aspect of our democracy that so few people seem to
understand. The relationship between the fed's and the states is supposed to
be as equals. If the fed's want to do something they have to get a lot of
the states to go along with it or else they don't get the resources. The
states can't get too far out of line because of their ability to represent
the other n-1 states.

The problem now, fundamentaly to my view, is that the states are seen as
chatels or sub-servient to the fed's.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

From nobody at neva.org  Sun Nov  2 14:53:11 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:53:11 +0800
Subject: democracy?! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711022247.QAA24111@multi26.netcomi.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[Long discussion about crypto-anarchy vs. democracy removed]

I suggest reframing the argument.  Right now, the discussion seems to
be: "If we were Gods, how would we institute a just political system
on these people."  Unfortunately, only a few Gods are reading the
cypherpunks list and they refuse to do our bidding.

The real question is: what should we do?

Our (oversimplified) choices:

1. Democracy: Participate in the political process by joining various
   organizations, lobbying, begging for money, voting, etc. etc.

2. Crypto-Anarchy: Write code, buy guns, make money, make more money,
   etc. etc.

The second choice is clearly better in terms of protecting your own
hide.

What if we want to protect the hides of other people?  I believe
choice 2 is still the better one.  In any event, this is the more
interesting discussion.

The problem with choice 1 is that even if you can convince yourself
that a group of people and an institution are sound and reliable
today, you do not know what it will be doing later on.  Choice 2, on
the other hand, is a low risk investment and brings you into contact
with a better group of people.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFzVSpaWtjSmRH/5AQG9LQf/WCepJirikSAU4DIVlRTqYQkfkahLDtxi
H8E3a0HSoOYSJAJefx4h2Zl0yy2lYT6mdNjNYsjIR3lDbkDJh97DfgueLHAhmivE
Ht4C9XzyzKB2CRGiLD5hlbGRzBYACUWU2sm5xNIxYJ44AuwyhHgpVp8vhQts7XRM
xQzLtF4fDD+8Hc5AKq4vE4lTpJzwHUO7T2yANZlFMpx0clJDj7/pr+gSUTaWQcK4
pok4wAj+Hd9wrTtOLG40SqEQmmISi8owutvGStQgb3PSjDFsmpAQimxr4agMcylZ
7qxkNRc/sUzfdN5uc89n1cQ+E2fenocs5W6GJ7N8GRnfYP6127uveQ==
=OuX5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From fred at dev.null  Sun Nov  2 15:04:24 1997
From: fred at dev.null (Fred)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:04:24 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <199711021310.FAA06433@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <345CF865.7B54@dev.null>

::
Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

Mix wrote:

> (*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
> The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
                           ^^^ (typo)

Could you tell me the best way to kill a policeman, politician, or
world leader, without using a gun? 

Thanks,
  Fred

From millerd at vhoorl.rli-net.net  Sun Nov  2 15:17:52 1997
From: millerd at vhoorl.rli-net.net (Gabriel Millerd)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:17:52 +0800
Subject: domo & pgp
In-Reply-To: <199711022212.XAA19710@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

has anyone here gotten domo to work with pgp? at minimal signing outbound
messages?

- ---
Gabriel Millerd        |  The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as
RLI Internet Services  |     a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in
System Admin Attribu   |   philosophy because it is an exalted activity will
http://www.rli-net.net |   have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy...
                       |     neither its pipes nor its theories will hold
                       |                        water.

PGP Finger Print
DSS: 1024 0xE760079B = B6D4 DB5B 4990 C79F 00E7  BF4A 1E15 B47A E760 079B
D/H: 4096 0xD53C231B = BC6F C82E FD5C BE0A AF33  607C 8406 4A79 D53C 231B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Comment: Key on public key server http://keys.pgp.com
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF0FKx4VtHrnYAebEQIougCfRizGJwUBMc3ew3rt1VenKRfS3bsAn3bW
VahIGhTy7LHZfCdLj6TOh90m
=CUeL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Sun Nov  2 16:27:32 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:27:32 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <439400e9f3604a48781f48485a000403@squirrel>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantspell, Editor in Chief of Groan Magazine, wrote:
>> There was a discussion a little while ago suggesting that toad.com had
>> been compromised by people who were sowing dissension by partially
>> distributing certain messages.  Had toad signed all of its messages,
>> it would be possible to obtain evidence supporting this hypothesis
>> without relying entirely on the word of people we may not know.
>
>How do signed messages deal with the incompleat distribushun problem?
>If legit signed messages are not sent to half the list, what does the
>sig gain us?

When Attila says "I have this message from the list" and it has a
valid signature, it makes things considerably more interesting because
we don't have to trust Attila very much.  For instance, it may give
the owner of the signing key incontrovertible proof that his machine
was compromised.  If we have several examples of messages which are
slightly different from each other and are signed by the list key, we
know that an attack was mounted, although we may not know by whom.

>> Had somebody compromised toad, they would still have to correctly sign
>> messages.
>
>But, depending on the compromise, this could be possible.

I phrased that badly.  What I meant to say was that the person who
compromised the machine may be able to sign messages, but he or she
will still have to sign all the messages going out.  Which means that
they can be compared later, which may show incontrovertible proof that
Something Is Wrong And It Is Wrong In A Most Interesting Way.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFzqp5aWtjSmRH/5AQFAsgf7B2F4xDdQZc4koltSO1exTkAGIzxH8nCP
7lh5r2P3vPhC1BfxkCMr3+kTIAuTcXPhvkmGxXNGjud+wqPOW/BYDPUfyjGDQ/rD
TZOM23iqVYZIfiiyEdl3DbqmiIv7W0Zrs8b9yhlDnjWPXGnqmgu5QV8LM3QHEEKk
nOhKz+qm3cv4UNI9wK87+PjmFKNN9JZCq3WsFCYPI9QSCJR9qgZ7YXnGAPGs7dbG
CYRhRYRUMPYBha2RfROvkU5xWH32iRE0bdLQ/uxCjL0vZxoMSq5gDMAjm1Hu02+L
8qTsyCK/LeCRBwtNBCHTO70E71lsV2jD+03Xcxm3SzYHnNo5G6RUHQ==
=x/pi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From steve at lvdi.net  Sun Nov  2 16:34:01 1997
From: steve at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:34:01 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: 

>Comments?  This is clearly not all that new, but I've never
>seen it in a crypto context from anyone but me.

The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV
presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."   The first
part proposed an Eternity-like system to anonymously publish information
which was compatible with most Web index engines.

In the second part, Eric predicted that because of the Net's economics and
anonymous mailing and publication potential copyrights were on their way
out.  He acknowledged that some workable method of artist compensation was
still needed and proposed the movie industry as a possible model.  In this
scenario a multi-level money collection and product distribution scheme
would be supported by artist reputation and completion bonds.

--Steve

(Esther Dyson is a supporter of alternative publication economics, and I've
heard Eric's approach.)

From tm at dev.null  Sun Nov  2 16:52:17 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:52:17 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <439400e9f3604a48781f48485a000403@squirrel>
Message-ID: <345D1D29.3FBF@dev.null>

> Monty Cantspell, Iditor in Grief of Groan Ragazine, writed:

> When Attila says "I have this message from the list" and it has a
> valid signature, it makes things considerably more interesting because
> we don't have to trust Attila very much.

Attila,
  If you are short on reputation capital, I could lend you some.

TruthMonger

From sales at morbrandnames.com  Mon Nov  3 11:32:48 1997
From: sales at morbrandnames.com (sales at morbrandnames.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:32:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE WATCH, ROLEX, NOVADO, GUCCI STYLES
Message-ID: <>

FREE QUARTZ WATCH OFFER 
NO PURCHASE NECESSARY    !!!!!!!!!!

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website. Free quartz watch with a leather band,White, black
or gold face. Valued at $30 retail in the  major department stores.
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ROLEX, GUCCI, CHANEL, MOVADO, styles and many more............

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GIORGIO, COOL WATER   and many more............

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POLO SPORT, GIORGIO RED, TOMMY HILFIGER,
DRAKKAR NOIR, MICHAEL JORDAN and many more...

<<< Come  shop with us for the Holidays and save >>>

TO VISIT OUR HOME PAGE GO TO  

http://www.morbrandnames.com

Have a Happy Holiday

*If for any reason you wish to be removed from our e mail list  
mailto:sales at morbrandnames.com 
and in your subject box type " remove".
We apologize for your inconvenience.

From sales at morbrandnames.com  Mon Nov  3 11:32:48 1997
From: sales at morbrandnames.com (sales at morbrandnames.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:32:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE WATCH, ROLEX, NOVADO, GUCCI STYLES
Message-ID: <>

FREE QUARTZ WATCH OFFER 
NO PURCHASE NECESSARY    !!!!!!!!!!

Free watch to any person who will visit our shopping mall
website. Free quartz watch with a leather band,White, black
or gold face. Valued at $30 retail in the  major department stores.
We offer over 500 assorted fashion watches like: 

ROLEX, GUCCI, CHANEL, MOVADO, styles and many more............

FREE PERFUME OFFER .......... SEE WEBSITE FOR DETAILS
Over 200 PERFUME  versions  1 OZ, 2 OZ, 3.3 OZ, 3.4 OZ 

For ladies: 
CHANEL #5, WHITE DIAMONDS, CK1, 
GIORGIO, COOL WATER   and many more............

for men: 
POLO SPORT, GIORGIO RED, TOMMY HILFIGER,
DRAKKAR NOIR, MICHAEL JORDAN and many more...

<<< Come  shop with us for the Holidays and save >>>

TO VISIT OUR HOME PAGE GO TO  

http://www.morbrandnames.com

Have a Happy Holiday

*If for any reason you wish to be removed from our e mail list  
mailto:sales at morbrandnames.com 
and in your subject box type " remove".
We apologize for your inconvenience.

From brianbr at together.net  Sun Nov  2 19:38:52 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:38:52 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711030332.WAA23276@mx02.together.net>

On 10/31/97 12:46 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>I had an engineer working for me who cheerfully used the company medical
>plan for all it was worth. If his kid had a cold, off to the doctor. If his
>wife felt feverish, off to the doctor. If he had an upset stomache after
>lunch (understandable considering the state of company food and
>burrito-vending machines in 1980), off to the doctor.  He may have paid $5
>per visit. Of course, he took off a lot of time to make these various treks
>to have his kids, himself, and his wife "treated" (given aspirin, told to
>drink plenty of fluids, whatever). A nice racket for the hospitals.

 This is one (of many) things my ex-wife and I used to disagree on ... 
she would want to haul the kid or herself off to the Emergency room 
everytime anything happened ... the idea of sleeping on it and seeing how 
it seemed in the morning was foreign to her; I can see that broken limbs 
getting sharp raps in head etc ... but every little sniffle ... of course 
premiums are up. For us, it was zero co-pay since between my retired 
military status and back then Raytheon medical coverage I never had to 
lay out a penny, when its that free eats easy to over-indulge ... and 
during those times I spent in the ER waiting room I saw many other doing 
the same thing.

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  

     "Home is where your books are" --	Kitty O'Neal

From brianbr at together.net  Sun Nov  2 19:46:59 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:46:59 +0800
Subject: Bell sentencing timed to coincide with raids on militia members?
Message-ID: <199711030342.WAA23471@mx02.together.net>

On 10/31/97 3:01 PM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>Get ready, folks. By the way, I'll be at the gun show at the Cow Palace in
>San Francisco on the weekend of November 8-9, probably Saturday, the 8th.
>Seems I'm running low on certain types of ammo, and I may want to pick up a
>couple more assault rifles before Swinestein succeeds in completely banning
>them.

 I used to think that way ... but then I thought, why pay all that money 
and walk the line of whatever Swinesteen et al come up with. Instead I 
have my deer rifles and a shotgun or two and ammo for both. The way this 
all is working now, I have more combat experience than 90% of the active 
duty military and most cops, and every day goes by more and more are 
retiring. If it ever comes down to that, I'll take down one or two of 
them with my deer rifle and help myself to their weapons and ammo ... 
also kind of makes sure I haven't set myself up to depend on an obsolete 
caliber ... if I am not good enough to take some of them down and take 
their weapons, no 300 nor 30,000 rounds for my very own Armalite is going 
to make any difference.

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
   For PGP Keys  

  "Everyone who lives dies; but not everyone who dies has lived"
    -- back of a 'No Fear' t-shirt

From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Sun Nov  2 21:05:38 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:05:38 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>

Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From pooh at efga.org  Sun Nov  2 21:21:29 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:21:29 +0800
Subject: Smartcards - Drivers Licenses in New Jersey
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103001906.0356e594@rboc.net>

The New Jersey legislature has announced that they will begin issuing
smartcards for driver's licenses.  The New license is reported to contain

 * biographical info
 * auto insurance info
 * medical insurance info
 * health info

The cards are also claimed to be capable of carrying

 * fingerprints
 * photographic images
 * health records
 * billing statements

The Capitol Report article and a Web based feedback forum can be found at
http://www.cpanj.com/legislative/drivers_license_1196.html

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sun Nov  2 21:26:37 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:26:37 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

Its hard to tell.  However PGP has a number of advangers over S/MIME,
it is better supported by cilents, PGP signtures are smaller then S/MIME
sigs.  In addtion S/MIME sigs normaly have encoded in them a lot of
infomation about the user makeing it very difficalt to use via an anon
remailer.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. 
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument

From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Nov  2 23:53:03 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:53:03 +0800
Subject: the one Unbreakable crypto scheme.
Message-ID: 

/* Generic xor handler.

   With no args, xors stdin against 0xFF to stdout.  A single argument is a
   file to read xor-bytes out of.  Any zero in the xor-bytes array is treated
   as the end; if you need to xor against a string that *includes* zeros,
   you're on your own.

   *Hobbit*, 960208 */

#include 
#include 

char buf[8192];
char bytes[256];
char * py;

/* do the xor, in place.  Uses global ptr "py" to maintain "bytes" state */
xorb (buf, len)
  char * buf;
  int len;
{
  register int x;
  register char * pb;

  pb = buf;
  x = len;
  while (x > 0) {
    *pb = (*pb ^ *py);
    pb++;
    py++;
    if (! *py)
      py = bytes;
    x--;
  }
} /* xorb */

/* blah */
main (argc, argv)
  int argc;
  char ** argv;
{
  register int x = 0;
  register int y;

/* manually preload; xor-with-0xFF is all too common */
  memset (bytes, 0, sizeof (bytes));
  bytes[0] = 0xff;

/* if file named in any arg, reload from that */
#ifdef O_BINARY				/* DOS shit... */
  x = setmode (0, O_BINARY);		/* make stdin raw */
  if (x < 0) {
    fprintf (stderr, "stdin binary setmode oops: %d\n", x);
    exit (1);
  }
  x = setmode (1, O_BINARY);		/* make stdout raw */
  if (x < 0) {
    fprintf (stderr, "stdout binary setmode oops: %d\n", x);
    exit (1);
  }
#endif /* O_BINARY */

  if (argv[1])
#ifdef O_BINARY
    x = open (argv[1], O_RDONLY | O_BINARY);
#else
    x = open (argv[1], O_RDONLY);
#endif
  if (x > 0) {
    read (x, bytes, 250);		/* nothin' fancy here */
    close (x);
  }
  py = bytes;
  x = 1;
  while (x > 0) {
    x = read (0, buf, sizeof (buf));
    if (x <= 0)
      break;
    xorb (buf, x);
    y = write (1, buf, x);
    if (y <= 0)
      exit (1);
  }
  exit (0);
}

From ryan at michonline.com  Mon Nov  3 00:07:59 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:07:59 +0800
Subject: PGP 50i Beta 8a for Unix.
Message-ID: 

I jsut went and got myself a copy of this.  It's frustratingly hard to get
to compile.  The source directories are all missing header files (filling
src/include with all the headers via symlinks seems to work) but other
files seem to be missing.  Is there a better distribution of this than the
mess on pgpi.com?

Ryan Anderson - PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
RSA in Perl: (Export violations for the lazy)
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

THE FOLLOWING IS AN OPINION,
(this is a forged post anyway)

So I read Jodi's lawsuit as it is posted
on her web page.  I'll post some interesting
parts below.  Keep in mind that I'm not
a lawyer, nor do I play one in cyberspace...

Basically the lawsuit (supposably) is(was?) against
a school board in Florida where Jodi sent
her 3 children to middle school.

Jodi seeks mucho casho for emotional damages
she was inflicted by having to discover and
fight the sex-ed class.  Apparantly she originally
was one of the mothers who opted her children out,
but the school fumbled (or the child "forgot" to hand the
paper back in) and they took the class anyways.  After
one day, she yanked the kids out of school for a week,
and engaged on the legal battle we see here.  She also
seeks to shut down (or heavily amend) the sex ed class,
along with the newspaper part of a civics class, and
she wants more supervision of the children's internet
access.

As far as I can tell, oddly enough, the internet part
of the case is the only part with any real merit. (She
doesn't want her children using the internet at school to
see pornography while she isn't watching.)  That's reasonable,
and the school could have someone watching (or claim to)
to avoid it.

There's a lot of whining about the "secular humanism" of
the school which is entirely without merit and sounds foolish
in the context of a legal paper.

Selected interesting points are as follows:
(claimed as the school board's damaging sex ed class. . .)
  c) giving inaccurate and incomplete information about HIV/AIDS
transmission, by claiming students should not worry if their cut-free leg
was splashed with HIV positive blood;

  How innaccurate is this?  Do we have some "studies?"

  k) failing to emphasize abstinence from activity outside of marriage as
the expected standard for all school-age children and failing to teach the
benefits of monogamous hetero marriage;

This is CRAZY!  Not only does she want them to accept whatever she believes
as the "expected standard" but
she wants them to expound upon the glories of a boring sex life! :>

l) failing to emphasize that abstinence is a certain way to avoid
out-of-wedlock pregnancy, ly transmitted diseases, including acquired immune
deficiency syndrome (AIDS) and other associated health problems; abstinence
was only briefly mentioned and then ridiculed at length;

Not true! As claimed in her previous points (see 'bloody leg' above)

m) failing to respect the conscience and rights of parents and students;

respect is a hard thing to measure, and is often something EARNED.

  n) in addition, the opt out letter failed to fully and properly advise
parents of the nature and content of the lecture so that parents could
meaningfully decide to let their children opt out or attend the lecture;

Actually has some merit.

(Then the school board showed a laser disk purchased from the "homosexual
propagandizer" ABC which...)

c.) failing to promote an awareness of the benefits of abstinence, by
failing to equip students with abstinence decision-making techniques;

That last phase is just funny!

e.) promoting a secular humanist philosophy by teaching children that they
alone should decide when to become ly active;

hmmm....

(Now they have the GALL to buy some newspapers and provide them to the
children....these newspapers:)

a.) favoring, justifying, promoting, condoning and/or providing biased,
inaccurate and incomplete information about homo , by failing to discuss
adverse mental, physical and emotional consequences of engaging in homo
behavior and not discussing the changeability of orientation;

If they had advised the students that some of them could, if they wanted,
become homosexuals, would that
have been more proper?

  d.) failing to teach monogamous, hetero marriage as the expected standard
to prevent ly transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancy;

HAHAHA, isn't homosexual marriage a better way of avoiding pregnancy?

Then Jodi objects to some newspapers being shown in geography class which
contain an
"adult" advertisement section (aparantly)  Here are the whole of her
objections to this particular point:
  a.) providing inappropriate material as part of curriculum (one ad for an
adult video store invites customers to bring their wife, girlfriend,
boyfriend or all three);
  b.) providing material that does not promote core values;
  c.) providing material which does not promote the contributions made by
women to society, such as ads for sex-for-sale businesses;
  d.) failing to promote an awareness of the benefits of abstinence and the
consequences of teenage pregnancy;
  e.) failing to teach monogamous hetero marriage as the standard;
  f.) failing to teach respect for family and marriage;
  g.) failing to promote a moral society;
  h.) encouraging early activity of children;
  i.) contributing to the delinquency of minors by encouraging activity.

Those were very funny!  She is a comic in the classic Milk and Cheese sense!
I especially
loved c) which claims that ads for sex for sale businesses are contributions
made by women to society!
I wholeheartedly disagree!  How can she be sure the ads were placed and
created by WOMEN!?  Couldn't
a man have made the ads?

Other problems Jodi had with sex ed were:

a.) giving inaccurate, incomplete or biased information about masturbation,
by teaching there is no evidence that it is emotionally harmful, when there
is substantial evidence to the contrary;
  k.) failing to encourage respect for parents as authority figures by
telling children they can make decisions without consulting or relying on
parents' advice;

  l.) establishing a secular humanist philosophy by teaching, for example,
that children are in charge of their bodies and are free to make decisions
based on what they feel is the right thing to do at the time and by
excluding parents and other adults from decision-making processes;

Further explainations follow:

42. The actions of Defendant in paragraphs 25-28 , 30-32 and 34-40 were
outrageous, intentional and/or reckless and were intended to cause plaintiff
JODI HOFFMAN severe emotional distress and as a result of said acts,
Plaintiff suffered severe distress.
43. Plaintiff suffered an inability to sleep properly, met with the
publisher of the Miami Herald to ask that the ads be removed from the
schools, and suffered other emotional injury, loss and distress, became
anxious, worried about the safety and morals of her children as a result of
Defendant's conduct.

She then whines about the word "orientation" being added to the school's
policy of anti-discrimination
because "the undefined class known simply as " orientation" appears to
protect persons who could pose a threat to the health and safety of
students, impair the right of the school board to reject applications for
employment based on good cause and who, under 231.02 (1), may not be of good
moral character."

Among the many things she demands are:

(m.) Order that the school board institute a balanced comprehensive health
curricula, one that emphasizes abstinence until marriage and fidelity within
marriage,

  (5) Money damages for Defendant's intentional infliction of emotional
distress on Plaintiff parent and for the loss of educational opportunity to
Plaintiff's minor children.

Summery:

I WISH I could say that she was only going after the money.  In this case,
that would
be a severe case of moral improvement.  Specific phrases jump out of her
case ("failing to promote a moral society") that nail her down as a
Fundamentalist
Christian with an agenda, using the Law as one arm of her attack.  She ranks
up there
with those terrorists in Texas who filed liens against practically everyone,
in my opinion.

From Ghost at workline.com  Mon Nov  3 17:01:11 1997
From: Ghost at workline.com (Ghost at workline.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711040101.RAA12149@toad.com>

F 
R  (remote destination)
R  (remote destination)
R  (remote destination)
X - Start
Received: by soi.hyperchat.com id 00e700 at Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:58:33 -700 (Mountain Standard Time)
Message-ID: <345E731B.12 at workline.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:58:03 -0500
From: Abstruse 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
CC: Jodi Hoffman , fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
References: <199711032057.MAA08856 at k2.brigadoon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 01:48:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:48:38 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
Message-ID: <199711030925.KAA17872@basement.replay.com>

Anybody heard of syncrypt?  www.syncrypt.com

It is like pgp but has lots of cool features.  File wiping, group
encryption, automatic encryption of files put in certain directories.

Get this, hiding encrypted files in pictures!  Automatically.  It pulls
them back out again too.

Plus it has an interesting "20 questions" method for backing up your
passphrase.  If you forget your passphrase you have to answer 25 of 27
questions like "who was your favorite teacher" to get it back.

Bruce Schneier is working with them, so they should have good crypto.
It has blowfish, des and triple des, and idea.  The keys are el gamal.

Problem is the freeware is crippled to 10 encryptions (unlimited
decryptions).  $50 for full functions.

Is this the new pgp?  No gak or even cak in sight.

SynMonger

From gbroiles at netbox.com  Mon Nov  3 02:01:09 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:01:09 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971031120116.00c62d58@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971103015447.006e0abc@pop.sirius.com>

At 07:01 AM 10/31/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>
>Greg,
>
>What's your take on repeated delay in Jim's sentencing:
>

perhaps I'm just low on conspiracy juice this week, but I think that Kent's
suggestion that he's in the hospital is probably the best - his recent
letters/calls to Blanc mentioned a persistent staph infection. If he'd been
released, I expect that the docket would indicate that. (it's possible that
they've got a "phantom docket" which has parallel but different entries ..
but I doubt it.) 

I'm reluctant to wander down the "Is Jim a narc? Is Jim not a narc?" path
because it's too difficult to reach a dependable conclusion with the little
information available .. especially given that the feds may be trying to
make it look like he is, or isn't, or is but appears not to be, or
whatever. Too many people applying too much spin. My occam's razor thinks
he's in the jail ward of the local hospital, explaining why John got his
books back and why the sentencing hasn't happened.

If the feds wanted information from him, they've already got it .. and if
they're going to hold him until he testifies against co-conspirators, it's
going to take a lot longer than a continuation until mid-November. So I
doubt that's the reason for the delay.

And, to answer Tim's question re why he can't be sentenced immediately -
because that's not how it works in federal court. Federal defendants submit
to lengthy interviews with a probation officer, who then draws up a report
which summarizes the defendant's social/political/economic/pharmaceutical
background, lists the defendant's prior history of
education/crime/whatever, and so forth. The judge then imposes a sentence
based on the PSR (presentence report) and the guidelines range, which
creates a relatively narrow range of sentences matching a particular crime.
The idea is that the punishment should both be tailored to the defendant,
and be relatively standard across crimes of similar severity. More re
determinate sentencing at .

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com

From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Mon Nov  3 02:04:53 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:04:53 +0800
Subject: A Legal Strategy
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Let's say you are James Joyce and you are writing "Ulysses" on your
nice little Linux machine.  Because you fear persecution, you use
encrypted virtual disks.

Because you are clever, you have ten such disks.  One contains your
drafts of "Ulysses", four contain harmless information, and five
contain noise.

The jack booted thugs kick down your door and drag you to jail.  The
Judge orders you to produce the pass phrases of all the disks or be
penalized for contempt of court.

Now, you are in an interesting situation.  You can't give the
passwords for half of the disks, but you are unable to prove this.
This means you have nothing to gain by giving the pass phrase to the
"Ulysses" disk - you will always be seen as holding out.  Even if you
convince the Judge that some of the disks are noise, you have no
reason not to include the "Ulysses" disk in this set.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNF1945aWtjSmRH/5AQGEMQf/Rv6ZMLV/Jw9lnKa2p9QjDd3L3oukDfL7
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3O1LHOmxcqVtxOTIZ9c1P8mSYpN/E4My8vcen9bp8a5GBzkIeVdQTQ==
=RpFf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Nov  3 02:26:28 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:26:28 +0800
Subject: One Time Pads (Real Ones!)
Message-ID: <199711031002.CAA26848@sirius.infonex.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
exportable.

I've been thinking about how practical they are.

One diskette holds about 150 messages.  The people we trust tend to be
people we communicate with a lot.  An exchange of one box of diskettes
should last a long time in most cases.

The first 128 bits of the pad can be used as a key to identify it.
This the recipient can figure out how to decode it by hunting through
his or her key collection for the one that matches.

When keys are exchanged, additional information can be exchanged and
associated with each key.  Length, for example.  This means no length
fields are needed because it can be recovered from the key itself.
There are probably more examples.

One time pads are self authenticating.

For increased security, the use of a double one time pad is a good
idea.  Both correspondents generate key sets.  The message is
encrypted using one key from each key set.  Again, no identifying
information is needed, because the recipient can look for pairs of
keys that work.

If these key sets are exchanged through separate secure channels, they
will be especially hard to compromise.

Also, each user can be confident that the message is secure with
regard to key material if they have generated the keys themselves.

Keys should be destroyed immediately after use.  This means that the
only time the rubber hose attack is effective is during message
transit.

Key destruction is a hard problem, though, because it is difficult to
be confident that the key has been completely erased from a disk.  Use
of diskettes improves the situation.  Other media might be better,
such as static memory.

There is no good reason not to wrap one time pads in other encryption
protocols.  It is hard, maybe impossible for some algorithms, to crack
a message when the contents have the appearance of noise.  This means
that it is hard to tell who is using one time pads and when they are
doing it.  Naturally, the user will send many messages which consist
of noise, indistinguishable from a one time pad.  This gives the user
plausible deniability, especially if the practice is common.

If the wrapper encryption protocol has not been compromised at the
time of use, it has the pleasing result that it buys time.  Should the
message be recorded and filed on tape at Ft. Meade, and the encryption
protocol broken ten years later, the user will have a very difficult
time producing the key material.

Key generation is an inadequately solved problem right now.  There are
chips which generate streams of random bits, but it is impossible to
tell if they have been compromised.  A home brew hardware based random
number generator with a serial interface is probably the best way to
go.  The output of this device could be XORed with other source of
randomness to increase confidence.

One time pads seem practical to me.

Comments?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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1tIoEDF+fYaq6/a2yiyI4PVZ8qPMpyLayZ3K89P8N8zzuQSMS6pB7yOf4waOufcF
6nAmcVG8/O4BddID15XiKbdc7QSpHKK2R3LlwrS4ZQBHyhYvC5Quo41SHNiWIGjO
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+/PNDJXWWQDWovVrCW2yKmpKeTPgxTJ1R4aEpt2CBwdQlMqVwpVrAg==
=O5oZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov  3 03:06:15 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:06:15 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199711030925.KAA17872@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <2144e913358bc86168058feec1461cc7@anon.efga.org>

Anonymous   writes:

> Anybody heard of syncrypt?  www.syncrypt.com

> It is like pgp but has lots of cool features.  File wiping, group
> encryption, automatic encryption of files put in certain directories.

Am I supposed to be impressed?  They only support the proprietary
products of a company supporting draconian gun controls.

From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Nov  3 03:37:02 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:37:02 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971103025934.006dd7a0@cnw.com>

Greg Broiles wrote:

>perhaps I'm just low on conspiracy juice this week, but I think that Kent's
>suggestion that he's in the hospital is probably the best - his recent
>letters/calls to Blanc mentioned a persistent staph infection. 

Ach! Greg, that was supposed to be a "secret", since Jim said he didn't
want publicity over his case and I cheated by letting John post it on his
web site.   Although, it's not like most everyone suspected, hmh.

But anyway, what do you mean by saying that John's books were returned to him?
I sent a letter to Jim in the mail this past Saturday, encouraging him to
call me again and update me on his situation and on the sentencing date.
So I'll be waiting and will pass the info on to John.
    ..
Blanc

From declan at well.com  Mon Nov  3 03:45:10 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:45:10 +0800
Subject: Washington Times: "FCC wants to extend V chip to computers"
Message-ID: 

Front page:

"Not content to monitor the progrom on your television set, the FCC now
wants to install a vchip in your personal computer -- a move that could
extend the agency's reach into cyberspace...

"Lawmakers said the vchip law was intended only for TV sets..."

"Some question whether this will lead to FCC regulation of the Internet..."

Dave Banisar, Rep. Tauzin, Ed Black make appearances.

-Declan

From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Nov  3 03:59:20 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:59:20 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
Message-ID: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>Monty Cantsin writes:
>> The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
>> odd.  
>
>I had a go at doing something with it (I'll let you know when I get
>it to work) -- I had the damnest job figuring out what was going on.
>The problem I found with understanding it were all of the nested
>functions called through vectors of functions and handler functions.
>Makes it hard to inspect what will happen without running the code
>under a debugger -- lots control flow is decided at run time.

So in other words, even though we have the source code we don't really
have confidence that we can tell what it is doing.

Even though the source code is available, I don't think it has been
studied all that carefully.  For example, hardly anybody knew that the
PGP 5.0 source had CAK features lurking in it.  Or, remember that bug
with the random number generator?  As I recall (i.e., feel free to
correct me), it was in Colin Plumb's code and he found it himself.
This would imply that it got by whoever went over the code when it was
released.  Not reassuring.

C is a big part of the problem.  Also, PGP was originally designed to
operate on some fairly slow machines and they tried very hard to
optimize the hell out of it.  Now, however, cycles are a lot cheaper.
I think we should give up speed for clarity.  Slow code that we can
really trust is better.

And, the PGP code does a bunch of careful things which complicate it
like burning the stack all the time.  In my judgement, this is
misplaced.  If you don't trust the platform you are using you can't
fix it in your encryption code.

>> We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit that
>> it will be completely unencumbered.
>
>Sounds maybe worth doing.

It's at least worth talking about.  Hashing out the design is a good
exercise and it can inspire other people when they are designing their
own crypto systems.

>> It also gives us the opportunity to write it in a language other than
>> C, one which truly supports encapsulation.  C code is hard to verify
>> with great confidence because it is possible to obfuscate it and
>> introduce security holes.  This means that C requires one to trust the
>> authors to a greater extent than is desirable.
>
>Some C programmers do have fun writing obfuscated chicken scratchings,
>but you _can_ write C code optimised for readability.

What's really bad is that any part of the code can betray the rest.
Let's say you had somebody who was really very good who wanted to
weaken things.  All he or she has to do is have a little obfuscated
code someplace that undermines the majority of nicely designed and
implemented C code.

A truly encapsulated language is a lot easier to verify because if
none of the magic functions exist in the code (easy to check), you can
be confident that when you have verified one piece of code that the
other pieces can't interfere.

>What language did you have in mind?  modula-3?  iso-pascal/borland
>pascal?

Hadn't thought of Modula-3, but that is an excellent idea.  Java would
be a candidate, although performance is an issue.  There's been some
good buzz around about Ada.  It might perform well and it's here to
stay.  Is Modula-3 being used in any serious way by anybody?  If it
is, let's consider it.  (I think there is a Modula-3 -> C compiler out
there someplace, which means it's totally portable.)

A good language choice would probably save a lot of time.

>> The whole issue of compatibility is an interesting one.  Would it be a
>> good idea to have a cryptographic system which was completely
>> incompatible with PGP, given the Big Brother risk?
>
>Theoretically perhaps, however I'm not sure a system will get very far
>unless it can automatically interoperate with pgp2.x and 5.x.

It would be nice to just shed the PGP baggage for the moment and think
about how we would do a system from scratch for our own uses.

Ultimately, this system could reside in an application which also
speaks PGP.  Or, it could just be its own thing.

>You could build something which did the right thing automatically
>based on public key types:
>
>hypothetical cpunks mail system (HCMS)

We should use the acronym CMR.  (Cypherpunk Message Remodel?
Suggestions invited.)

>HCMS -> pgp2.x   use RSA/MD5/IDEA and pgp2.x message formats
>HCMS -> pgp5.x   use DSA/EG/3DES/SHA1 and pgp5.x message formats
>HCMS -> HCMS     use whatever goodies you want, stego, mixmaster, etc.

CMR nee HCMS should be an independent system.  The mail system you are
using should decide whether to use it or some other system depending
on the correspondent.

While it may seem crazy to toss compatibility, it has some advantages.
For instance, the only people who will use it are the hardcore types.
I like the idea of an exclusive crypto system that only cool people
who are fairly with it use.

What do you think about mandating a key size?  I like the idea that
use of the protocol communicates "I am very serious about my privacy."
It's also slightly cripple resistant.  (And, were I to consider mass
market concerns which I am not, I would say that it makes it easier
for the user to make the right choice.)

How about finding a way to eliminate indicators?  It's nice not to
leak any information at all.  It also makes super-encryption stronger.
If each encrypted layer looks like noise, the total key size is the
sum of the bits of each layer.

One way to eliminate indicators is through the prior agreement of the
meaning of random bits.  In effect, you can say "when you see
0x234B4D234F, it means, outside layer RSA/IDEA, middle layer
3DES/SHA1, and inner layer the Captain Crunch decoder ring."  This
information can be exchanged at the time of key authentication,
securely, by telling your correspondent how you are encrypting
everything.  Later, you can send more random bits when the tank starts
getting low.

Super-encryption is something we should do more of.  Let's say we
believe, conservatively, that any particular cipher we are using has a
10% chance of falling in a particular year.  In ten years, that's a
35% chance of compromise.  But if three different ciphers are used,
there is only a 4% chance that it will fall in a decade.

Super-encryption has been unpopular because it takes too long.
However, if you are using a modern OS, even if it takes five minutes
running in the background it's just not a big deal.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to break out authentication from
the communication protocol.  Strictly speaking they are not the same
thing.  Both programs can be called by the same message composition
program.  This naturally leads to using separate communications and
authentication keys.

I am not fond of PGP's signature design.  The "BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE"
stuff clutters things up.  How about a one line signature with a
previous character count?  Note that this wraps beautifully without
modifying the message itself.  It's unobtrusive.

ASCII armor also sets off alarms with me, but I'm not sure exactly how
to solve this problem.  It seems right to define protocols in terms of
full 8 bit bytes.  Perhaps just uuencoding encrypted messages is the
way to go?

For authentication, it would probably be okay to define an ASCII mode.

I think key management is good to think of as a separate application.
The right way to do this isn't clear, yet.  The Web of Trust is a neat
idea, but I think the concept is flawed because you are unlikely to
tell something sensitive to somebody you wouldn't (or couldn't)
authenticate yourself.  Ultimately it relies on things like driver's
licenses issued by Big Brother, which is terrible.

>> Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
>> to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
>> conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
>> cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
>> completely economical.
>
>This is more secure I agree.  The real kicker with this problem is
>people who turn on encrypt to self -- I don't want messages with
>encrypt to self (an extra door into the message) on them in my
>mailbox, nor coming over the wire headed to me.
>
>You can see the reason for multiple recipient though -- it's too ease
>integration into mailers -- you can process the message and give it
>back to the mailer, and then it can still send the message To: x, y;
>Cc: z.

But this is just bad design if you care about security in a serious
way.  Even assuming you have to reveal who you are sending the message
to, why reveal that three messages are related to each other?

This is yet another mass market issue.  If we were to do it the right
way, all the mail header fields would be contained inside the
encryption envelope.

>Doing away with multiple crypto recipient risk is more an issue of MUA
>integration than rabid conservation of bits.

I'll buy that.

>> So, perhaps a protocol which does not support anything more than one
>> encryption key per message would be a good idea.
>
>You don't have to use it.  I tend not to.  I never use encrypt to
>self, and I get annoyed with people who send me messages encrypt to
>themselves, and very rarely do I use Cc on encrypted messages.

If the protocol doesn't accept multiple keys for a message it is
slightly CAK/GAK resistent.  And, it's a nice statement of intent.
It's also nice to have tools which help you to behave securely without
carefully thinking about it when you are using them.

>> And, I wonder if compression doesn't actually weaken security?  Let's
>> say I forward a known message with some commentary.  Since the
>> compression tables will be known, it seems like the increased size of
>> the message could provide some interesting information about the
>> preceding commentary.  All by itself, this probably doesn't matter,
>> but combined with other information it might result in a breach.  In
>> any event, that which is ambiguous should be eliminated.
>
>I don't understand this comment.

Let's say it is known with high probability that I am forwarding a
particular message with some unknown prefacing comments.  It seems to
me that (possibly) some information is be revealed by the size of
the compressed encrypted text.

That is, the known message will compress to a different size depending
on your prefacing comments.

For example, if I use lots of words that are in the known message, it
will compress very well.  The result will be significantly smaller
than if I use words that never appear in the known message.  This
might not be a problem, but I don't like "mights".

Also, I like things which are really orthogonal.  There's no
particular reason for the compression to be part of an encryption
program, if you use it at all.

>One thing that some people don't realise is that the plaintext gets
>mixed into the random pool as an additional source of entropy.  In
>automated environments (lots of MUAs which set +batchmode), this is
>all the entropy you'll get -- except for the original key presses to
>generate the key, and a small bit of entropy from the system clock.
>
>It's fairly good normally because the way entropy is mixed in is a one
>way function of the randseed.bin based on IDEA.  To make use of this
>an attacker would need a copy of your randseed.bin before you sent the
>target message, and to have suspicions of what the message is.  Even
>after a few known messages it would still likely be possible to
>attack, because the entropy added by the clock is partly predictable
>from the message headers Date: field, and because it isn't that much
>entropy each time.

The randseed.bin file has always bothered me.  What we really want is
some good sources of entropy in which we have tremendous confidence.

Also, if you signed the message the Date: field won't be needed.  This
is bad design, in my opinion.  A signature and a time stamp are two
different things.  For instance, I would prefer not to time stamp my
messages as it reveals the state of my clock and the transit time of
the messages I send.

>> It would also be nice if the messages were padded to predetermined
>> sizes, say 10K, 20K, 40K, etc.  (Once compression is eliminated this
>> is less of an issue.)
>
>It would be nice to have a system where you send 100k and receive 100k
>per day regardless.  Say in 10 10k packets which get poured into a
>mixmaster node.

Yes, this would be good.  Although, I would think of this as being on
a higher level than the encryption program itself.  Probably we want
an entire communications management program which tracks everything
you've sent and analyzes your activity for weaknesses.

>> How about a one time pad mode?  One time pads are more practical than
>> widely believed.  Many things we talk about we *do* want to keep quiet
>> for the rest of our natural lives.  
>
>Right.
>
>The problem with this is that you need random numbers.  How do you
>generate them?

You only need to generate keys once in awhile.  This means that you
can go to some trouble when doing it.  For instance, you might have
some hardware which is not routinely connected to your machine.

>If you use PGP's random pool, one suspects that if IDEA becomes
>attackable at some point in the future the random pool will start to
>look more like a predictable PRNG to the attacker.
>
>I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
>more suspect.

Well, neither of these would be good for a one time pad, of course.
It would be neat to have, say, three sources of hardware randomness
and then XOR the result with the above pseudo random output.

It's hard to recognize non-randomness, so some overkill is good
practice.

BTW, it would be nice if PGP or CMR/HCMS would let you supply bits of
entropy by hand.  It takes awhile to generate 128 bits by hand, but
for some things it would be worth it.

>> It's clear that going the corporate route has to be handled with some
>> care.  Given the political implications, investors have certain risks.
>> 
>> Also, many people seem to switch into a different mode as soon as they
>> have a company.  Anything which they perceive as increasing their
>> profits becomes good.  PGP, Inc. has gone this way, we've seen First
>> Virtual do some unsavory things, 
>
>What did FV do?  I know they don't use encryption, and Nathaniel
>Borenstein wrote a few hype-hype articles about the _gasp_ newly
>discovered security danger of "key board sniffers".

The hype article was what I had in mind.  I doubt very much that
Borenstein would ever have been involved with such a thing outside a
corporation.  It seems to have a bad effect on some people.

The problem is, you don't always know where that bad effect stops once
you've noticed it.

>> and even good old C2 has made a few people uncomfortable.
>
>Only thing slightly negative C2 did was to make a dubious decision in
>handling of Mr Nemesis's fabricated claims about stronghold flaws.
>C2 still rocks, though right?

Comme ci, comme ca.  The libel suit business was uncool.  Also, there
was a press release relating to one of the cracks which was somewhat
misleading, I thought.  C2 has shown some symptoms of institutional
paranoia, which is bad.  Sameer's comments along the lines of "this
isn't some cypherpunk hobby" are also not reassuring.  All of these
things arise from being in a corporation.

The problem is that I'm not tapping their phones.  I don't really know
what they are thinking or doing.  When something happens that is
troubling, it's hard to restore trust.  I don't give C2 five stars.

That said, C2 has done some very good things.  People seem to like
Stronghold a lot.  It really is a secure product.  They publish their
source code.  I do like what they have to say in many of their press
releases and they are getting certain ideas into the mainstream.  (The
Forbes article, for instance.)

Sameer's one line comment "sell code" had a lot of influence on me,
too.

>> It doesn't have to be this way, of course.  Look at Comsec Partners.
>> We don't see any "conversation recovery", lying press releases, or any
>> other nonsense from them, just a beautiful product.
>
>Quite so.  C2 hasn't got "web traffic recovery" either :-)

No kidding.  Yes, C2 is miles above PGP, Inc. in my book.

But, Comsec gets the five stars.  They have never done anything or
said anything that gave me less than complete confidence.

>> What I like about selling software is that you could actually make
>> good living by doing the right thing.  And, after all, if you've spent
>> six months writing something, why shouldn't the users kick in a little
>> money instead of freeloading?  I would like to see more crypto users
>> in the habit of paying for tools and in the habit starting security
>> companies.
>
>New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
>from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.

The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
it clear from day one that it is not free software.  If you want to
run it, you should buy it.  (The problem with share ware is that people
get used to "borrowing" it.)

This should work well.  Cryptoanarchists, in my experience, have
pretty high integrity.  Some people will pirate, true, but that's
life.  Ironically, people who honestly discuss their skepticism of
intellectual property laws are probably less likely to pirate.

>If we get a real eternity service going (not the poor imitation perl
>script up now where all traffic goes through a server unless you
>install it locally) software copyright could become a thing of the
>past :-)
>
>Trust might be one way to go, rely on good will.  Or paying for
>technical support.  Or mixmaster, or DC net packet delivery postage
>charges.

These are good ideas.

You know, it would be cool to define a software architecture for
remailer software.  Different remailers have different properties and
different strategies.  They may continue to differentiate.

When you decided to trust a particular remailer, it could give you a
module of code with a standard external interface which prepares
messages for that particular remailer.

Putting your idea another way, the code is "free" but the remailers
cost money.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNF1+s5aWtjSmRH/5AQFvHQf+PFXqriw8FoMMcsflEf1Jo55Myl94Luj8
UxSQ9YCq6+dedih7j/FJ3RLL0LtCTa7Sn6E/kGmgqzwcAcfzcjavpl7joNdHU9Yo
pS81mXeZ3kw34Nj1hbaX2j6Shx4+46uNUskfXThi6bz3lh1OM2hy7xF63blB2m1I
MVt786tah76UfveYlWR/MXK+ZN2DwUvejiPX+bP7vNqaDsXRyrW5mX1vVUuKf6po
5PRZ5wSMKQF/ULm7tOb/g8otoj2w84iir8kckLJiiSs4Xm3hk6+QbDVIhz31aPD3
D2PXIDEXz+x+Vtr5xPIurvpfEo5GpgFdMv5Ox1y796yHr6jjJ8BJjQ==
=rjFe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov  3 04:08:20 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:08:20 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <1d429080fd14348402d587992a55f441@anon.efga.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>> Fortunately some of these "good" lawyers already exist at the Institute for 
>> Justice.  Basically, they are a libertarian version of the ACLU.  They've 
>> accomplished some good things and deserve the support (read $$$) of 
>> freedom-minded individuals everywhere.  (note: I'm not connected with them
>> in any way; just letting the cypherpunk community know about an organization
>> in sync with our views)
>> 
>>  "If you seek a courtroom champion for individual liberty, free market
>>   solutions, and limited government, look only as far as the Institute
>>   for Justice.  When politicians pass sweepingly intrusive laws and
>>   bureaucrats build their empires of paperwork and power, only the
>>   Institute for Justice brings them to account in court."
>>   -- http://www.InstituteforJustice.org/
>
>Thanks, I'll check them out as I am unaware of their position.

I should add that they haven't done anything in the field of cryptographic 
or technology issues, but have focused most of their efforts on protecting 
small entrepreneurs from overly zealous government agencies, particularly on 
the local level.  One item I found of particular interest was a report they 
published in July 1996 about the restrictive barriers New York City has 
erected to prevent entrepreneurship (i.e., expensive/restrictive licensing 
fees, tough penalties for doing business without the required permits, 
etc.).  An earlier post on this list referred to NYC as a cesspool of 
socialism.  There is truth to this statement.  Socialist politicians tend 
to punish those who help themselves, all for the public good of course.

[snip] 
>> Bill Benson has done some extensive research (his book is called The Law 
>> That Never Was) regarding the 16th Amendment (the so-called Income Tax 
>> Amendment) and how it was ratified.  According to the information he has 
>> uncovered through exhaustive research in D.C. and all of the state capitals 
>> of the then 48 states, the 16th Amendment was never ratified by 3/4ths of 
>> the states. (see http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html for more info)
>> 
>> Friends of mine have spoken to Mr. Benson about this, and he says that the 
>> courts won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  He even sells a package (or at 
>> least he was selling it back in 1995) of legal information about the 
>> non-ratification of the 16th that can be used as a defense in an income tax 
>> case.  According to Mr. Benson (in 1995), each of the cases was dropped when 
>> the defense made it clear they were going to argue their defense based on 
>> this point.
>> 
>> I understand that folks in the "patriot" movement have tried to take this to 
>> the Supreme Court without success.  The Court refused to hear it.
>> 
>> Assuming Mr. Benson's research is accurate and legitimate, the 16th didn't 
>> even come close to being ratified and is truly a Law That Never Was.  Think 
>> about that next April 15th...the IRS's "lawful" authority is based upon a
>> legal fiction.  That's why it's called >voluntary< compliance.
>
>Actualy, his research is one of the reasons that I am so interested in an
>actual lawsuit.
>
>What if somebody were to go for several years with no contact at all with
>the IRS, and no intention of making contact. Then when approached that
>person makes enough noise to guarantee that they will be going to court.

Funny you should mention this.  A few folks have this very intention. :-)

>What would it then take to bush-whack the beggars? What is the absolute last
>point that your defence must be revealed prior to your presenting your case
>to the jury? 

I'm not following the wording of this last question.  Could you clarify?

>             The reason I use the first person is because to me it seems
>critical that no lawyer is actualy used in the defence. As I understand it,
>and I ain't no lawyer, there are some actions that a defendent may do if
>representing themselves that lawyers are prohibited from doing. Among them
>is stating the obvious fact, if the jurors don't believe the law is just
>they may refuse to find for that reason. If the Constitution and the actual
>record of votes in concert with the general feeling of excess regarding this
>matter doesn't prove the case, what will?

That's exactly the point.  And that, I believe, is why the Supreme Court --
or any court for that matter -- will not go near this issue.  It is the
pivotal point that would collapse the whole house of cards that is the
Income Tax.  The feds have a huge vested interest in keeping the system
going as long as they can (Y2K bugs and all) and this issue is a
veritable hornets' nest.

Nerthus

p.s.  For those of you keeping tabs on nyms, this is the last time I will
include my public key in the body of my email.

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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=8W8j
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNF0knuFWwZe05jcJAQH8WAf/e/BA8ysXWf1xrxJKiNPP8oyEDHpeFxZQ
LWgW/kgfDmh1Y/Tfjw0i5nnnImlXfEcX5nmL8H+HezxBxKMN2O33PftHAPYghHrI
y0hSgZVmA2VOMy4Dtv0umT19RarennPVHrGDyCi2zmNF9+5v6b81CYWLEBNMYx9V
kaVOBCEt0FRdDFug1FwNRHJ+gHQjbFCVCMRF2v/0AF5r9uDPzNtCo3JP6tnllcqX
jSf6MKa3Kxw17c+Je+TuLwHgltvULt3KZBrweJqslKKbY24Qw/PSPPHczvL8ieI1
uknK9KTVl6OJLvaGyI6bpFFgFoPxTpF+JJkzUR1GnlLN5gUwuQ6NKw==
=osod
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de  Mon Nov  3 04:22:59 1997
From: lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:22:59 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711030925.KAA17872@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

* Anonymous wrote:
>Is this the new pgp?  No gak or even cak in sight.

No source no security.

From lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de  Mon Nov  3 04:26:54 1997
From: lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:26:54 +0800
Subject: GAK for PGP 2.6.2
In-Reply-To: <199710301935.UAA16086@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

* Anonymous wrote:
>Here's a patch to PGP 2.6.2 to force it to encrypt all messages to the
>FBI key.

Once again. Implement it into at least 60% existing implementation spread
out. Then come back.

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 04:47:07 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:47:07 +0800
Subject: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
Message-ID: <199711031235.NAA08077@basement.replay.com>

Anonymous  wrote:
>> > If so, then burn in hell, Nazi scum-sucking weasel!
>> >
>> Ditto for Paul Pomes and Gary Burnore.
>
>I'm familiar with the role of Gary Burnore  and that
>of his DataBasix associates Belinda Bryan  and Billy
>McClatchie (aka "Wotan")  in getting the Mailmasher
>and Huge Cajones remailers shut down.  Jeff Burchell posted a public
>expose' of their harassment to Usenet back in June, apparently catching the
>DataBasix folks off-guard.  But what's the story with Paul Pomes?  What has
>he done?

Paul Pomes was complaining about Jeff Burchell's huge cajones remailer to Jeff
Burchell's upstream and employers about the same time the rest of the Databasix
gang was doing it.  Paul Pomes appears to be a part of the Databasix gang.

>Perhaps the best thing that can be done with people like Burnore is to put
>together an FAQ about their tactics, similar to what his "fans" have done
>for the "Rev." Steve Winter.  Then when Burnore tries to stir up trouble by
>first fabricating anonymous "abuse" and then demanding that it either be
>stopped and the culprit(s) identified (knowing in advance that's
>impossible), or else that the remailer be shut down, someone can forward
>that FAQ to the remailer's upstream provider, or whoever is being pressured
>to pull the plug.  And if Paul Pomes engages in the same dishonest tactics,
>that needs to be done with him as well.

Gary Burnore had a mongo page at http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html.
So did Paul Pomes, Belinda Bryan, and the rest of the Databasix gang.
Too bad it's down for now, but it'll be back.

From loans at xitau.de  Mon Nov  3 21:00:46 1997
From: loans at xitau.de (loans at xitau.de)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:00:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Business Loans For You
Message-ID: <199711040443.UAA07994@post-office.nevada.edu>

Do you need to increase profits in your business?
Do you need venture capital to get you there?
Are you frustrated with your bank turning you down
for the capital your business needs to grow?  Be frustrated
no more.  Zion Worldwide can put you in touch with
hundreds of offshore investors waiting to invest in a
viable business just like yours.

What Is An Offshore Investor?

An offshore investor may be an offshore bank or a group of
offshore lenders looking to invest in and to lend money to
viable business enterprises both in the United States and
elsewhere around the world.

Why Not My Own Bank?

U.S. federal banking law permits American banks to tie up
a lot of their money in overhead expenses and advertising
costs.  Which means that American banks have less money
to lend out to their customers (the ones who gave the banks
their money in the first place!).  Offshore banks, on the other
hand, are required by offshore banking rules and regulations
to lend more of their customer's money to, you guessed it,
their customers.  And groups of offshore lenders (often referred
to as 'conglomerates'), are not necessarily restricted  to the
number or type of businesses that they can invest in, as long
as these businesses are viable and show potential for future growth and profit.

How Do I Take Advantage Of These Offshore Lending Opportunities?

Zion Worldwide works with literally dozens and dozens of offshore banks and conglomerates
across the world to put American businesses in touch with reputable offshore
lenders.  By submitting an offshore loan application to Zion Worldwide, your
businesss automatically becomes eligible for the following types of offshore funding:

Venture Capital Loans, Signature Loans, Equipment Leasing, Cash Grants,
Self Liquidating Loans and a $25,000 Line of Offshore Credit, as well as
offshore corporate credit cards.

How Do I Apply And How Much Does It Cost?

To apply simply write to:

Zion Worldwide
5015 W. Sahara Ave.,
Suite 125,
Las Vegas, NV, 89102.

..and ask for an offshore loan application.  There is a non-refundable
application fee of $200US payable to Zion Worldwide via money order, 
cashier's check, Visa or Mastercard.

Why The $200 Fee?

When you make application for offshore lending opportunities, Zion Worldwide
literally sends your company's loan application to several major funding
institutions around the globe.  The $200US application fee assists our
organization to cover the costs of shipping your loan application documents
around the world.

How Does Zion Worldwide Make Its Money?

When your company's loan application arrives back to our office,
Zion Worldwide receives a brokerage fee from our offshore lenders
for finding them viable businesses to invest in.

Can I Apply?

Any viable business in the US or abroad may make application to
Zion Worldwide in order to receive serious consideration from Zion's
offshore lenders.

Is It Hard To Apply?

Absolutely not.  Simply prepare to provide your company's past earnings
as well as future earnings potential, as well as some documented business
plan and, of course, some basic business details (e.g. your company's name,
address, phone, fax etc.) and you're set.  In fact, we want you to succeed in
securing your loan, because when you succeed, we succeed.

Why Is Zion Worldwide Located In Las Vegas?

Nevada is America's last haven for judgment proof corporations (better than Delaware,
better than Wyoming).  Zion Worldwide strives to take full advantage of all of the
incorporation benefits that the State of Nevada provides.

What's The Catch?

Sometimes interest rates on offshore loans are higher than interests rates on similar
loans in the United States.  However, apply for an offshore loan, then immediately
turn around and expand your business with it, and of course, enjoy the increased
profits your business generates, repay your offshore loan early, and the interest
charged to you on your offshore loan will total no more than the interest on a loan
you can (or can't) get in the US.

AnyThing Else?

Nope, except 'Apply Today'

From whgiii at invweb.net  Mon Nov  3 06:37:06 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:37:06 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199711031419.JAA11804@users.invweb.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971103044957.24885.qmail at hotmail.com>, on 11/02/97 
   at 08:49 PM, "Nobuki Nakatuji"  said:

>Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

No it is not!

S/MIME specs require support for weak RC2/40 encryption. This is not
secure!!! Add to this the fact that to date no S/MIME vendor has ever
released their crypto source code. I for one would not trust Net$cape or
Micro$oft to secure an outhouse let alone my communications. They have
shown their incompentence in this area time and time again.

Weak Crypto = No Security
No Source   = No Security

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNF3c7I9Co1n+aLhhAQGtrQP/UoYnM5FpOfu2ytg5K3jGpz2i5t7x/K1+
MGSvPIMaPkrwkfRjFz3rTg8fRrUy0d4eG1s41DhNJIJ4EJZU3r2pHGTPJkjtr4Hr
7io3DDVjYyr5h+ssHED2xHMLySi2h5ZSQuraZm5/qWeDDjCxgWPxzEaD53ui+SSz
PrcexIJWb/E=
=fK4Z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Nov  3 07:09:09 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:09:09 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199711031450.GAA10370@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>

   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = " mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = " mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config at anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer at replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer at neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.

   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.

   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.

   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.

   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.

   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.

   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.

   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.

   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.

   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.

   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.

   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.

   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.

   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.

   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.

Raph Levien

From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Mon Nov  3 07:53:40 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:53:40 +0800
Subject: Testing headers, ignore
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103154526.007a1390@pop3.demon.co.uk>

Test sent at 3:45pm 3/11/97 from c12

	          Paul Bradley	
            Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 08:35:46 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:35:46 +0800
Subject: FUD Trivia -- Sex, Bells, 'a'nd...  / [Fwd: Sampler: November 3]Sampler: November 3
Message-ID: <345DDDE1.8E6@dev.null>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 667
URL: 

From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Mon Nov  3 08:51:54 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:51:54 +0800
Subject: One Time Pads (Real Ones!)
In-Reply-To: <199711031002.CAA26848@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199711031646.LAA02843@upaya.multiverse.com>

Mix writes:

: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
: 
: One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
: forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
: exportable.

If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
EAR.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists

From kelsey at plnet.net  Mon Nov  3 09:07:21 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:07:21 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711031657.KAA08353@email.plnet.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: Cypherpunks ## Date: 11/01/97 ##
  Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy ]

>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:24:39 -0700
>From: Tim May 
>Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy

>There are interesting protocols which can be used to skirt
>statist laws about insurance. A la carte insurance, for
>specific illnesses, is one of the best examples. Thus, a
>heterosexual male who doesn't use IV needles can "opt out"
>of coverage for AIDS-related treatments, thus transferring
>the effective cost to those most worthy.

I can see practical problems with this (like finding out
that the fine print on page 248 of my insurance contract
turns out not to cover dog bites that occur on Thursdays),
but it's really just letting customers buy only what they
want.

>This has similarities to crypto protocols. And anonymity. To
>wit, it is possible to arrange anonymous blood tests for
>various conditions. So, Alice arranges a distributed set of
>such tests, perhaps at multiple labs. When she finds she has
>no preconditions or precursors for Diseases A, B, C, and D,
>she opts out of being covered for these diseases.

One problem with this is that, if it becomes widespread,
nobody will ever buy insurance for these diseases unless
they have it or probably will get it.  This kind-of defeats
the point of having insurance, which is to protect yourself
from low probability high cost things happening.  That is,
before I've taken the test for genetic disease X, my best
estimate of the probability that I will test positive is
very low.  Once I have taken it, I know the result.  If I
sign up for a-la-carte insurance for this disease, the
insurance company effectively knows I must have tested
positive for a predisposition to it, and so either won't
give me insurance, or will give me insurance only at an
extremely high rate (corresponding to a 1/10 chance of
getting the disease, rather than a 1/1,000,000 chance).

On the other hand, information isn't free--I have to spend
some money for each of the hundreds of genetic tests
available.  There may be a profitable business in providing
a battery of genetic tests for a large up-front fee, in a
sort-of inverse-lottery scheme--if you get unlucky enough to
have one or more of these disease precursors, we pay your
insurance costs, or at least give you a big bundle of money
to spend as you will.  This is subject to various kinds of
abuse (if you know you're predisposed to get some disease,
you have a strong incentive to enter the ``lottery''), but
it still might work.

>--Tim May

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNF1ZdEHx57Ag8goBAQFZsQQA7NGzgc39WbyB8eACZN71wrBwOdapExNn
fvn1aEFeHoLWZnHIcLHwzSuCiJ22I9kGK8Co88fDfjDebb+kzHj9oO4xpfMecHLr
pjvKWfEDOnv5th6hxCmzKrA6OpuMqYgtvX9USRuO1oLckjX4mTc6jvEp6ZBD96vB
uWvXhj1bPUM=
=Vc/C
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 09:14:45 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:14:45 +0800
Subject: Washington Times: "FCC wants to extend V chip to computers"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 4:34 AM -0700 11/3/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Front page:
>
>"Not content to monitor the progrom on your television set, the FCC now

Progrom?

This could mean either "program" or "pogrom."

Or both. So "progrom" is apt. Declan has coined a neologism.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Mon Nov  3 09:35:05 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:35:05 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Minty Cuntskin (Sorry Monty, I couldn't resist ;-) wrote: 
>The producers of the show certainly know that there are terrorist
>elements and psychopaths who would be watching.  They know that these
>people will be turned on by the imagery of a BATF agent being brutally
>murdered.  They could have told the same story using different
>imagery.  Instead of using graphic violence, they could have expressed
>the idea of the BATF agent getting killed with a heartrending scene of
>his wife getting the phone call.  That certainly would not have been
>inflammatory.
>
>But they didn't.  The opted to go with a glorification of the act.
>Why?  Incompetence won't wash - anybody getting to national TV has
>spent years in the business and is a total pro.  They know what effect
>they are having.

True.  I think the majority of the Hollywood community is on our side
in this one.  Folks likes Clint Eastwood have made a sincere effort to
expose the BATFucks for the thugs they are.  Some of you may recall
that Clint has become a vocal critic of the seige at Waco and spoken
out against it on several occasions.

>They glorified this act of violence to encourage others to do the
>same.  Where is the FBI?  Why isn't anybody doing anything?  If the
>life of only one BATF agent is spared, it will be worthwhile!  Think
>of his poor wife and kids.

Yes, imagine having to be related to such a creep.

Tim May wrote:
>>Ah, what has the world come to?
>
>Remailers?  ;-)

Though not a panacea, remailers do create some interesting possibilities
for the freedom of expression.

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNF1BiuFWwZe05jcJAQGGmgf7BS7N+fJ9M24l2S9rQ92iU3+/W5/K3AP2
sMdGoOKhsbKYPGhjiH4QjBw1cKWLf+99WqwDzcF+Z662zfElhShZS46TOaboxtof
B4QukJGKDws0Hqf5ixG7+H6SqEE0wyjYWMX19o204JJNIvS8dgg0egXzZiJFu6JM
aT7NS26jMXl/BAfAz73a3sWMiJ6Td92El05X2Keknblswf4WfrSCPOl1uBefLNzv
jE86NY51A2htaQO2mIa6ed1kdBG7GRhyOAw+gwRIAi3E6F7+ORJwMLmMi0lR8LSz
f+AqJDkV+INgwHj5algunSACrIkfRdEnMNjPwImFoBNPl7xpXfEBKg==
=e2sj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov  3 09:38:23 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:38:23 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: 

Secret Spin wrote:
> -----BEGIN PLP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Let's say you are Robert E. Lee and you are writing "Ulysses" 
> on your nice little Linus blanket.  Because you fear Lucy in
> the Sky with Diamonds pulling away the football, you use
> encrypted virtual herniated disks.
> 
> Because you are the Beaver, you have ten such disks.  One 
> contains your glass of draft and "Ulysses", four contain 
> harmless nuclear information, and five contain killfiles
> full of TruthMonger posts.
> 
> The jack booted Sandfarts kick down your door and drag you 
> by your dick to jail.  The gay-hispanic-transexual liberal 
> Judge orders you to produce the pass phrases of all the disks or be
> penisized for condemned of court.
> 
> Now, you are in an interesting situation.  You can't give the
> passwords for half of the disks, but you are unable to prove this.
> This means you have nothing to gain by giving the pass phrase to the
> "Ulysses" disk - you will always be seen as holding out.  Even if you
> convince the Judge that some of the disks are noise, you have no
> reason not to include the "Ulysses" disk in this set.

I am only going to not-say this once, so listen up (snoozing==luzing).
Since I am not-saying this, you are going to have to think about it.

-----NON-STANDARD DISCLAIMER----
I accept no legal responsibility for anyone who sprains, or otherwise
injures their brain, by stepping off the well-lit main streets of 
proper societal thought patterns and ducking into the dark alleyways
of their mind, where strange, outlawed personas still lurk, secretly
engaging in the lost arts of alchemical cognition and evolutionary 
development of logic, thought, rationality and common-fucking-sense.
-----IS THAT NON-STANDARD ENOUGH FOR YOU?-----

Free brochure:
Circleiculum at 'THE WORLD'S WORST CRYPTOGRAPHY SCHOOL'
-------------------------------------------------------
101 - Making Sure Mom Can't Find Your Dirty Pictures
201 - Making Sure Your Employee Can't Hide His Dirty Pictures
301 - Government Cryptography Issues--How Many Algorithms Can
      Stand On The Head Of A Pin?
302 - Your Legal Right To Refuse To Hand Over Secret Keys The
      Government Already Has!
401 - Trusting PRZ From The PGP Cradel To The PGP Grave.

Free brochure:
Magicircleiculum at 'THE WORLD'S NON-EXISTENT CRYPTOGRAPHY SCHOOL'
------------------------------------------------------------------
Open-Ended Course / Self-Structured
The student is given a plain text file upon entering the program,
and then told to "Fuck off."
When ready, the student returns for the test. The student gives
his/her encrypted file to a cryptanalyst, who proceeds to take the
test. The cryptanalyst gets all the time he/she needs to take the 
test, while the student waits.
If the cryptanalyst decrypts the file, he/she passes the test and 
the student is sentenced to death. If the cryptanalyst fails to 
decrypt the file, the student is told to "Fuck off."
Students sentenced to death are taken to Life or Death Row which 
has a Death Chamber at one end and a Door To Freedom at the other.
The Executioner asks the student, "Does PRZ talk in his sleep?"
If the student answers, the Door To Freedom automatically locks.
Once the Door To Freedom locks, it does the student no good to
realize that the proper answer was to turn and walk out the
Door To Freedom.
The school has no graduates...only survivors.

From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov  3 09:40:09 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:40:09 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: 

       NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict

                    by J. Orlin Grabbe

	One of the dirty little secrets of the 1980s is that 
the U.S. regularly provided Iraq's Saddam Hussein with 
top-secret communication intercepts by the U.S. National 
Security Agency (NSA).  Consider the evidence.

	When in 1991 the government of Kuwait paid the 
public relations firm of Hill & Knowlton ten million 
dollars to drum up American war fever against the evil 
dictator Hussein, it brought about the end of a long legacy 
of cooperation between the U.S. and Iraq.  Hill & 
Knowlton resurrected the World War I propaganda story 
about German soldiers roasting Belgian babies on 
bayonets, updated in the form of a confidential witness 
(actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the 
U.S.) who told Congress a tearful story of Iraqi soldiers 
taking Kuwaiti babies out of incubators and leaving them 
on the cold floor to die.  President George Bush then 
repeated this fabricated tale in speeches ten times over the 
next three days.

	What is remarkable about this staged turn of 
events is that, until then, Hussein had operated largely 
with U.S. approval.  This cooperation had spanned three 
successive administrations, starting with Jimmy Carter.  
As noted by John R. MacArthur, "From 1980 to 1988, 
Hussein had shouldered the burden of killing about 
150,000 Iranians, in addition to at least thirteen thousand 
of his own citizens, including several thousand unarmed 
Kurdish civilians, and in the process won the admiration 
and support of elements of three successive U.S. 
Administrations" [1].

	Hussein's artful slaughter of Iranians was aided by 
good military intelligence.  The role of NSA in the 
conflict is an open secret in Europe, the Middle East, and 
Asia.  Only in this country has there been a relative news 
blackout, despite the fact that it was the U.S. 
administration that let the crypto cat out of the bag.  

	First, U.S. President Ronald Reagan informed the 
world on national television that the United States was 
reading Libyan communications.  This admission was part 
of a speech justifying the retaliatory bombing of Libya for 
its alleged involvement in the La Belle discotheque 
bombing in Berlin's Schoeneberg district, where two U.S. 
soldiers and a Turkish woman were killed, and 200 others 
injured. Reagan wasn't talking about American 
monitoring of Libyan news broadcasts. Rather, his "direct, 
precise, and undeniable proof"  referred to secret 
(encrypted) diplomatic communication between Tripoli 
and the Libyan embassy in East Berlin.

	Next, this leak was compound by the U.S. 
demonstration that it was also reading secret Iranian 
communications.  As reported in Switzerland's Neue 
Z^�rcher Zeitung,  the U.S. provided the contents of 
encrypted Iranian messages to France to assist in the 
conviction of Ali Vakili Rad and Massoud Hendi for the 
stabbing death in the Paris suburb of Suresnes of the 
former Iranian prime minister Shahpour Bakhtiar and his 
personal secretary Katibeh Fallouch. [2]

	What these two countries had in common was they 
had both purchased cryptographic communication 
equipment from the Swiss firm Crypto AG. Crypto AG 
was founded in 1952 by the (Russian-born) Swedish 
cryptographer Boris Hagelin who located his company in  
Zug.  Boris had created the "Hagelin-machine", a 
encryption device similar to the German "Enigma".  The 
Hagelin machine was used on the side of the Allies in 
World War II.

	Crypto AG was an old and venerable firm, and 
Switzerland was a neutral country. So Crypto AG's 
enciphering devices for voice communication and digital 
data networks were popular, and customers came from 
130 countries. These included the Vatican, as well the 
governments of Iraq, Iran, and Libya.  Such countries 
were naturally skeptical of cryptographic devices sold in 
many NATO countries, so turned to relatively neutral 
Switzerland for communication security.

	Iran demonstrated its suspicion about the source of 
the leaks, when it arrested Hans Buehler, a top salesman 
for Crypto AG, in Teheran on March 18, 1992.  During 
his nine and a half months of solitary confinement in Evin 
prison in Teheran, Buehler was questioned again and 
again whether he had leaked Teheran's codes or Libya's 
keys to Western powers.  Luckily Buehler didn't know 
anything.  He in fact believed in his own sales pitch that 
Crypto AG was a neutral company and its equipment was 
the best.  They were Swiss, after all.  [3]

	Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for 
Buehler's release in January 1993, then promptly fired 
him once they had reassured themselves that he hadn't 
revealed anything important under interrogation, and 
because Buehler had begun to ask some embarrassing 
questions. Then reports appeared on Swiss television, 
Swiss Radio International, all the major Swiss papers, and 
in German magazines like Der Spiegel.  Had Crypto AG's 
equipment been spiked by Western intelligence services? 
the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4].

	 Swiss television traced the ownership of Crypto 
AG to a company in Liechtenstein, and from there back to 
a trust company in Munich. A witness appearing on Swiss 
television explained the real owner was the German 
government--the Federal Estates Administration. [5]

	According to Der Spiegel, all but 6 of the 6000 
shares of Crypto AG were at one time owned by Eugen 
Freiberger, who resided in Munich and was head of the 
Crypto AG managing board in 1982. Another German, 
Josef Bauer, an authorized tax agent of the Muenchner 
Treuhandgesellschaft KPMG, and who was elected to the 
managing board in 1970, stated that his mandate had 
come from the German company Siemens.  Other 
members of Crypto AG's management had also worked at 
Siemens. Was the German secret service, the 
Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), hiding behind the 
Siemens' connection?

	So it would seem.  Der Spiegel reported that in 
October 1970, a secret meeting of the BND had discussed 
how the Swiss company Graettner could be guided into 
closer cooperation with Crypto AG, or could even merged 
with it. The BND additionally considered how "the 
Swedish company Ericsson could be influenced through 
Siemens to terminate its own cryptographic business." [6]

	A former employee of Crypto AG reported that he 
had to coordinate his developments with "people from 
Bad Godesberg". This was the location of the "central 
office for encryption affairs" of the BND, and the service 
instructed Crypto AG what algorithms to use to create the 
codes.  The employee also remembers an American 
"watcher", who strongly demanded the use of certain 
encryption methods.

	Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG 
often. A memorandum of  a secret workshop at Crypto 
AG in August 1975, where a new prototype of an 
encryption device was demonstrated, mentions the 
participation of Nora L. Mackebee, an NSA 
cryptographer. Motorola engineer Bob Newman says that 
Mackebee was introduced to him as a "consultant".  
Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG in the seventies in 
developing a new generation of electronic encryption 
machines.   The Americans "knew Zug very well and gave 
travel tips to the Motorola people for the visit at Crypto 
AG," Newman told Der Spiegel.

	Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto 
AG enciphering process, developed in cooperation with 
the NSA and the German company Siemans, involved 
secretly embedding the decryption key in the cipher text.  
Those who knew where to look could monitor the 
encrypted communication, then extract the decryption key 
that was also part of the transmission, and recover the 
plain text message.  Decryption of a message by a 
knowledgeable third party was not any more difficult that 
it was for the intended receiver.  (More than one method 
was used.  Sometimes the algorithm was simply deficient, 
with built-in exploitable weaknesses.)

	Crypto AG denies all this, of course, saying such 
reports are ""pure invention".

	What information was provided to Saddam 
Hussein exactly?  Answers to this question are currently 
being sought in a lawsuit against NSA in New Mexico, 
which has asked to see "all Iranian messages and 
translations between January 1, 1980 and June 10, 1996". 
[7]

	The passage of top-secret communications 
intelligence to someone like Saddam Hussein brings up 
other questions.  Which dictator is the U.S. passing top 
secret messages to currently?  Jiang Zemin?  Boris 
Yeltsin?  

	Will Saddam Hussein again become a recipient of 
NSA largess if he returns to the mass slaughter of 
Iranians?  What exactly is the purpose of NSA anyway?

	One more question:  Who is reading the Pope's 
communications?

                   Bibliography

[1] John R. MacArthur, Second Front: Censorship and 
Propaganda in the Gulf War, Hill and Wang, New York, 
1992.

[2] Some of the background of this assassination can be 
found in "The Tehran Connection," Time Magazine, 
March 21, 1994.

[3] The Buehler case is detailed in Res Strehle, 
Verschleusselt: der Fall Hans Beuhler, Werd Verlag, 
Zurich, 1994.  

[4] "For years, NSA secretly rigged Crypto AG machines 
so that U.S. eavesdroppers could easily break their codes, 
according to former company employees whose story is 
supported by company documents,"  "No Such Agency, 
Part 4: Rigging the Game," The Baltimore Sun, December 
4, 1995.

[5] Reported in programs about the Buehler case that were 
broadcast on Swiss Radio International on May 15, 1994 
and July 18, 1994.

[6]  "Wer ist der befugte Vierte?":  Geheimdienste 
unterwandern den Schutz von Verschlusselungsgeraten," 
Der Spiegel 36, 1996.

[7] U.S. District Court for the District of New Mexico, 
William H. Payne, Arthur R. Morales, Plaintiffs, v. 
Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, Director 
of National Security Agency, National Security Agency, 
Defendant, CIV NO 97 0266 SC/DJS.

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 10:08:45 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:08:45 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
Message-ID: <199711031755.SAA11526@basement.replay.com>

> > It is like pgp but has lots of cool features.  File wiping, group
> > encryption, automatic encryption of files put in certain directories.
> 
> Am I supposed to be impressed?  They only support the proprietary
> products of a company supporting draconian gun controls.

You mean Microsoft.  It's foolish to reject encryption software because
it runs on the OS used by 90% of its customers.

> >Is this the new pgp?  No gak or even cak in sight.
> 
> No source no security.

You don't trust Schneier?  You've seen the limitations of source code
release.  Experts like Schneier and his team designing the crypto is
worth more than a bunch of know nothings scratching their heads and
wondering where to begin with 1000+ pages of source code.

From declan at well.com  Mon Nov  3 10:24:45 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:24:45 +0800
Subject: Larry Lessig: a new CDA better than censorware?
Message-ID: 

***********

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:11:56 -0500
From: Mike Godwin 
Subject:      Law Professor calls for new CDA
To: NETLY-L at pathfinder.com

(I have been saying for some time that Professor Lessig, despite how he
characterizes himself, is no friend of freedom of speech. But here's where
the other shoe has dropped.)

 From the online edition of the New York Times:

 October 30, 1997

 By CARL S. KAPLAN

 Is a Better CDA Preferable To Opaque Censorship?

 he Communications Decency Act is dead, and most free speech advocates say,
 "good riddance." If there must be a solution to the problem of kids and
 cyber-pornography, let a thousand software-blocking packages bloom in
 homes, libraries and schools.

 Professor Lawrence Lessig of Harvard Law School is having none of this,
 however. In a recent controversial draft essay on the regulation of
 cyberspace, Lessig, a respected cyberlaw scholar, argues that if government
 must embrace a solution to indecent speech, a revamped CDA-like plan would
 be far more protective of traditional free speech values than the dangerous
 filtering products that many civil libertarians seem to love, or at least
 to prefer.

 "My sense is that this first major victory [in Reno v. ACLU]  has set us
 in a direction that we will later regret," Lessig writes, referring to the
 Supreme Court opinion striking down the CDA on First Amendment grounds.
 "It has pushed the problem of kids and porn towards a solution that will
 (from the perspective of the interest in free speech) be much worse. The
 (filtering products) touted by free speech activists in Reno are, in my
 view, far more restrictive of free speech interests than a properly
 crafted CDA."

 Lessig is not the first free speech advocate to damn filtering software.
 But he goes further than most in his nostalgia for a revised CDA. He also
 knows that his conclusions may invite some fury.

 "Promoting a CDA-like solution to the problemb of indecency is very much
 to step out of line," he writes. "I am not advocating a CDA-like solution
 because I believe there is any real problem. In my view, it would be best
 just to let things alone. But if Congress is not likely to let things
 alone, or at least if the President is more likely to bully a private
 solution then we need to think through the consequences of these different
 solutions. . . . We may well prefer that nothing be done. But if something
 is to be done, then whether through public or private regulation, we need
 to think about its consequences for free speech."

 Lessig's article, titled "What Things Regulate Speech," is a trove of
 ideas and legal scholarship on the permissible scope of government
 regulation of indecency, the evils of filtering and the nature of law in
 cyberspace, where restrictions on speech, for example, are apt to be
 enacted not by federal or state statues, but by minimally debated software
 codes. Happily, the article is written in plain English, not law school
 professor-ese. Many of the author's ideas have been expressed in earlier
 articles, law review essays and speeches.

 Boiled down and simplified, the main points of Lessig's CDA argument run
 like this:

 First, he argues that government has the power to place or "zone" hard-core
 pornography out of the reach of kids, so long as the means chosen is the
 least restrictive form of discrimination that existing technology permits.

 For example, Lessig notes that a California law making it a crime to sell
 porn in unattended vending machines, unless the machines are equipped with
 an adult identification system, was upheld by a Federal Appeals court. The
 Supreme Court earlier this year declined to review the case and thereby
 left the California law standing. In a historical footnote, the denial was
 issued in the same week the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in the CDA
 case w another matter involving the distribution of porn to kids.

 Next, Lessig points out that the success in the CDA case came in persuading
 the Court that other, less restrictive means for protecting children from
 porn were still available. The evils associated with the less restrictive
 means [ traditional blocking software ] are legion, however.

 For one thing, blocking software is crude because it tends to filter out
 too much [ sites opened to discuss AIDS or gay rights, for example ]
 because of mistaken associations with indecency. Also, blocking software is
 opaque, because the lists of banned sites are not published. Finally, the
 filtering companies, prompted by the demands of the market, tend to offer
 generalized censorship [ restrictions on access to a variety of potentially
 objectionable sites, from those dealing with violence to gambling ] not
 just censorship of so-called indecent sites.

 The upshot is that to the extent that government embraces filtering
 software, or mandates its use in libraries or schools, for example, such
 state action may be unconstitutional, because the government is exceeding
 its narrow justification in separating kids from hard-core pornography.

 As bad as private blocking is, PICS is worse, Lessig argues. PICS, an
 acronym for "Platform for Internet Content Selection," is a proposed
 labeling standard that makes it possible to rate and block material on the
 Net.

 "It was motivated as an alternative to the CDA," Lessig, 36, said in a
 recent telephone interview. "The MIT geniuses who thought it up realized
 it had broader potential that just blocking indecent speech."

 Like blocking software, PICS will probably be used as a general filtering
 tool w far exceeding the narrow interests of government, Lessig says.
 Another problem is the invisible nature of PICS: "If I use PICS on a
 search engine, and PICS returns two hits,  and blocks 8 hits, it doesn't
report
 back to me that 8 sites have fallen off the Earth," Lessig says.

 Most ominously, he argues, PICS can be imposed by anybody in the
 distribution chain. Thus a filter can be placed on an person's computer, or
 at the level of a company, an ISP or even a nation without the end user
 ever knowing it, Lessig says, making it easier for centralized censors to
 place filters on the Net.

 Taken together, filtering software and PICS lead to a hard-wired
 architecture of blocking that is antagonistic to the original free-wheeling
 and speech-enhancing values of the Internet, Lessig argues.

 By contrast, the scheme proposed by the old CDA wasn't that bad, he
 suggests. Of course, the original CDA was flawed because it went after a
 category of speech that was too vague to pass constitutional muster, Lessig
 says - a problem that CDA II could fix by taking sharper aim at hard-core
 pornography.

 More important, the scheme envisioned by the old law was somewhat
 protective of free speech values. Under the CDA, the "means" offered to
 separate kids from pornography was to put porn behind a wall that screened
 out kids with reasonable effectiveness. The technique was not filtering.  It
 was to set up identity checks on the doors through which people wanted to
 pass.

 This type of system has two things going for it, says Lessig. First, its
 restrictions extend only as far as the legitimate governmental interest w
 screening kids from porn. Second, it is unlikely to morph into a more
 comprehensive system for general censorship.

 Lessig adds that this type of identification system - contrary to the
 court's factual findings - is workable.

 Reaction to Lessig's ideas from the free-speech cohort is understandably
 mixed. James Boyle, a law professor at American University, for example,
 agrees with Lessig's point that people should be very suspicious of
 technological solutions to indecent speech on the Internet, like blocking
 software and PICS.

 "There's a kind of belief that technological solutions are pure and
 neutral. They have an allure - like Jetson's Jurisprudence," he says.
 "But I agree with Larry; people need to understand that technology isn't
 necessarily benign."

 Even so, Boyle is disinclined to reconsider the merits of the CDA adult
 identification scheme. "I do diverge there," he says, adding that it is
 impractical to be totally against filtering systems. "The question is how
 to design filtering systems so they have the maximum vibrancy."

 Jonathan Wallace, a New York lawyer and writer on cyberspace issues, also
 shares Lessig's skepticism on blocking software and PICS. But he thinks a
 dusting off of the CDA is "wrongheaded."

 Even assuming that an adult identification scheme were viable - which he
 doubts - Wallace asserts that any attempt to redefine indecent speech more
 narrowly would invite lawsuits from right-wing groups intent on proving
 that under their community standards, objectionable speech should be
 banned.

 Carl S. Kaplan at kaplanc at nytimes.com welcomes your comments and
 suggestions.

 Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We shot a law in _Reno_, just to watch it die.

Mike Godwin, EFF Staff Counsel, is currently on leave from EFF,
participating as a Research Fellow at the Freedom Forum Media Studies
Center in New York City. He can be contacted at 212-317-6552.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 10:37:56 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:37:56 +0800
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711031657.KAA08353@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: 

At 10:02 AM -0700 11/3/97, John Kelsey wrote:

>One problem with this is that, if it becomes widespread,
>nobody will ever buy insurance for these diseases unless
>they have it or probably will get it.  This kind-of defeats

Such insurance is now common. A boat owner doesn't buy insurance for
iceberg collisions if he is never in arctic waters, a small plane pilot
doesn't buy cargo insurance if he doesn't ferry cargo, and so on.

>the point of having insurance, which is to protect yourself
>from low probability high cost things happening.  That is,

I have a different view of what insurance is than John does.

What insurance is, and how it is priced, is too long a topic to get into
here. Suffice it to say that the insurance company makes its profits by
charging more for coverage than it pays out. And the customer, of course,
tends to lose the differential.

Each side tries to get as much information as possible. If Joe Client knows
he never pilots a cargo plane, he doesn't opt for cargo insurance. If Joe
Client knows he never engages in unprotected sex with diseasy prostitutes,
etc., he skips HIV insurance. The fact that some "low probability events,"
like meteor strikes, are uncovered is part of the price of keeping Joe's
premiums tolerable.

>before I've taken the test for genetic disease X, my best
>estimate of the probability that I will test positive is
>very low.  Once I have taken it, I know the result.  If I
>sign up for a-la-carte insurance for this disease, the
>insurance company effectively knows I must have tested
>positive for a predisposition to it, and so either won't
>give me insurance, or will give me insurance only at an
>extremely high rate (corresponding to a 1/10 chance of
>getting the disease, rather than a 1/1,000,000 chance).

This is the idea. It causes those with the predilections to the disease to
pay the high coverage costs.

The alternative is not pretty: banning private testing (how?) and forcing
insurance companies to cover all applicants for all conditions at a fixed
rate.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:38:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Join The Online Goldrush!
Message-ID: <31514432_26079502>

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From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Mon Nov  3 10:49:00 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:49:00 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: 

[Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
From: Jodi Hoffman 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....

ALL:
I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.

Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the freezing
drizzle.  I really thought we could make a difference, standing there
with our banner and signs, one of which read, "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT."  Stupid me.  As the saying
goes...we've come a long way, baby.

As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
would say.
Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
to blur the lines of reality.
=====================
Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
reading this.
Paul and Jodi Hoffman
Weston, Florida

"When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
(Hitler Youth Corps).
==================================================
LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
the United States.
Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
answers.
Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

THE RULE:
The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
rights.
THE REALITY:
Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
Soviet Union.
The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA

THE RULE:
Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
control the minds of the people.

THE REALITY:
It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
presented.
Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.

This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
cold, hard reality.
The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
press itself.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE

THE RULE:
Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
and lose respect for government leaders.

THE REALITY:
Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
have the most open and honest political system in the world.   The
United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
"Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
things are run anyway!"

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING

THE RULE:
Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.

THE REALITY:
Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
than in any other nation in the world.

Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
"disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR

THE RULE:
Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
ours.

THE REALITY:
If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.

Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
claiming "impartiality."

Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?

In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).

Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
condemnation.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT

THE RULE:
Encourage government extravagance on every front.
Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
independence, motivation and strength.

THE REALITY:
The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
education.

We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
cutbacks in services are proposed.

And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.

They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES

THE RULE:
Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
one interest:   Themselves!

THE REALITY:
>From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moralrelativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The 
highest
goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
themselves.

Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
their problems on society.

We have truly become the "me generation."

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP

THE RULE:
Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.

THE REALITY:
When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
every corner.

The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
United States.

Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
banned.
After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
illegal, women will still get abortions.

RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES

THE RULES:
Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
within the ranks.
Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
of their armed forces.

THE REALITY:
Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
national product.
We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
Congress, and
(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
the new and streamlined armed services.

Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'

Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.

Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
================================================================
The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
and from the United States itself.
They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
great detail by many Americans.

-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Mon Nov  3 10:51:35 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:51:35 +0800
Subject: What Will Revolution Look Like?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971031102712.00c3d2dc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, John Young wrote:

> Preindicators to revolution and anti-revolution in US:
> 
> World's highest disparity between poor and rich population.
> 
> World's highest military expenditures.
> 
> World's highest justice expenditures.
> 
> World's largest percentage of population in prison.
> 
> World's largets percentage of population in law enforcement.
> 

This reminded me of a wonderful quote from Mr. Jefferson:

"To preserve [the] independence [of the people,] we must not let our
rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between
economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts
as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries
and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and
our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come
to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of
these to the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the
sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now
do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling
the mismanagers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring
ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers."

--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. 

(-: was he describing England or the US?  ;-)

jim

From declan at well.com  Mon Nov  3 11:28:32 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:28:32 +0800
Subject: More on Censorware Summit, from Communications Daily
Message-ID: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Communications Daily
November 3, 1997, Monday

ONLINE SUMMIT ON KIDS' ISSUES SET FOR DEC.

   Broad-based effort by industry, consumer and advocacy groups to come up with
means to protect children who use Internet and online services will begin to
announce its solutions at summit meeting Dec. 1-3 in Washington. Summit, which
could involve as many as 300 participants, is result of meeting at White House
in July following Supreme Court decision to strike down key parts of
Communications Decency Act (CDA). At meeting, industry promised to find ways to
protect children.

   While original focus was on protecting children from pornography, plan is
being drawn up to include examination of other issues with children online such
as privacy and marketing. Longer term project could take another 6 months or as
long as year, said Christine Varney, ex-FTC member now in private practice who
is chmn. of summit. She was heavily involved with online issues during her
tenure at FTC.

   Varney said there will be other events next year, tentatively set for Feb.,
April, May and June, although structure for those hasn't been set. Idea was to
concentrate first on children's safety issues for Dec. meeting, she said in
interview. Dec. conference in Washington will announce tools and
recommendations
that industry and interest groups have come up with in safety area, Varney
said,
and there will be "concrete action at each stage" of process on issues to be
considered.

   Those recommendations aren't yet final, but could include some types of
rating system. Varney rejected notion that there are First Amendment concerns
involved, saying project "is not at all about censorship." Biggest danger, she
said, is that there could be single rating system -- it's not censorship if
there are many rating systems. Daniel Weitzner, deputy dir. of Center for
Democracy & Technology (CDT), one of groups that challenged CDA, agreed, saying
that key difference is between govt.'s taking role of censor and parents'
deciding what can be seen by children. He, too, said he was worried about
proposals for "some kind of mandatory labeling, which would be clearly
unconstitutional." Because of technical limitations, TV can accommodate
only one
system, Weitzner said, but computers are much more flexible. He added: "I know
of no interpretation of the First Amendment which says individuals, private
citizens, can't control what they read."

   There is some disagreement, however. David Banisar of Electronic Privacy
Information Center (EPIC) called meeting "censorware summit." He said it's
"attempting to undo what the Supreme Court did when it struck down the
CDA," and
"this is something that should be avoided because it's worse than the disease."
Banisar agreed no First Amendment restraint is involved, but more basic
principles of free speech can be violated by filtering tools and software that
could be used on national level.  That possibility, he said, is "equally as
dangerous as the CDA." Banisar said he's working with "a coalition of free
speech groups on alternatives" to summit. He said private industry and group
effort is more dangerous than legislation because "at least with legislation
there are certain rights under the First Amendment that can be applied."

   One of Varney's challenges in heading project is to bring together
groups who
spent years fighting each other over CDA and to determine whether there
could be
some areas of agreement. So far, she said, process has been working very well.
In addition to goal of coming up with recommendations on substance of issues is
goal of "creating partnerships where they didn't exist before," process
that she
said was particularly important because it's taking place as new medium
develops. She acknowledged that there must be concerted effort to maintain
focus
on children in deliberations while persuading former opponents to "check their
differences at the door" on CDA and other issues. Donna Hughes, communications
dir. for Enough Is Enough, anti-child porn group, said she was pleased that
summit has adopted much of her group's agenda. She said she was "pleased to be
at the table, to work very closely with many people who we had debated for 3
years." One benefit of summit, she said, is to "get to know each other. That's
always constructive." Hughes said she doesn't view online summit process as
refighting of CDA issues, saying result of CDA debate was to focus public
attention on dangers to children. Varney agreed, saying that "great beauty" of
process is that "folks so divided on the CDA" are agreed on children's' issues.

   But Banisar takes different view. He said his group was part of anti-CDA
coalition that had view different from CDT. Now, he said, CDT is taking "a very
industry viewpoint on this." Commitment of America Online (AOL), another CDA
defendant and major sponsor of online summit, to free speech "has been premised
that it doesn't want to be held liable for what its people said. It doesn't
mind
when it's censoring."

From jon at pgp.com  Mon Nov  3 12:10:50 1997
From: jon at pgp.com (Jon Callas)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:10:50 +0800
Subject: RSA Blows Smoke
In-Reply-To: <199711021240.HAA30685@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103115159.0894a320@mail.pgp.com>

At 01:53 PM 11/2/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:

   Unfortunately PGP Inc have closed off dialogue on the topic --
   apparent blanket ban on employee discussion of CMR.

Horsefeathers, Adam. We've been talking about this with you a lot and you
know it. We set up a mailing list to discuss it, you've received personal
phone calls, and lots of people have bent over backwards for you.

If you think you're being ignored, perhaps you should re-examine the
signal-to-noise ratio of your posts.

	Jon

-----
Jon Callas                                  jon at pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)

From marc at cygnus.com  Mon Nov  3 13:17:51 1997
From: marc at cygnus.com (Marc Horowitz)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:17:51 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: 

Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
copy them.

While the cost of one-off CD duplication will certainly drop, I see no
reason that media will not change form in the future.  As long as it's
cheaper or more convenient to buy digital media from the publisher
than to copy it yourself, the piracy problem basically doesn't exist.
This is exactly what makes copyright work for books: I can duplicate a
book, but it will cost more than buying it legitimately.  (There is
still the problem of systematic large-scale piracy, but this is
relatively easy to notice and prosecute under existing law.)

Short works (newspapers, magazines, journals, etc.) will need a
different mechanism, such as advertising, but that infrastructure is
creating itself today.

I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem,
outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.

		Marc

From brianbr at together.net  Mon Nov  3 13:29:17 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:29:17 +0800
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711032113.QAA16739@mx02.together.net>

On 11/1/97 5:02 PM, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>Hmmm, will have to rethink suggesting any PGP based products to my customers
>now. I simply refuse to pay anybody any percentage of my product revenues
>simply because I use their tool. I buy a SDK for a flat fee like I buy a
>book, screwdriver, or a car. I can't imagine Black & Decker wanting a
>percentage of the house sale simply because the carpenter used their hammers
>and saws. Ford or Chevy wanting to see my income statement each year so they
>can figure out how much I owe them because I drive their brand of vehicle to
>my customers sites...yeah right.

 Have you ever priced earth moving equipment ... the price on them is 
easily 150-300% of what it should be, say comparing it to 'consumer' 
items, like cars and small pickups and extrapolating up for the backhoe 
or whatever ... everyone I talk to in the contracting business says the 
same thing,  "... its an item you are going to use to make money and they 
are taking a cut of your profits up front"

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  

 	"The Box said Win '95 or better - So I used a Macintosh!"
 			 -- Harold Herbert Tessman			       

From mskala at lyell.csc.UVic.CA  Mon Nov  3 13:29:30 1997
From: mskala at lyell.csc.UVic.CA (mskala at lyell.csc.UVic.CA)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:29:30 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <199711011024.LAA08905@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> If I were someone who wanted to make the internet look like a place 
> that needed STRONG governmental controls I would put the words 
> terrorists,criminals,pornographers,drug dealers/addicts,

Fnord.

From semprini at theschool.com  Mon Nov  3 13:31:01 1997
From: semprini at theschool.com (semprini at theschool.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:31:01 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711032057.MAA08856@k2.brigadoon.com>

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

Wrong. Exposure to pornography does not cause "brain damage" or 
"structural changes in the brain." That's like saying that holding up 
dirty pictures in front of an office building is going to cause 
"structural changes" in the building. Sure, a percentage of the 
little people inside looking out the windows are going to have a 
twisted little grin on their face, but holding up the pictures isn't 
going to compromise the integrity of the building structure. I'd like 
to know where you get your information, because it's false.

From landon at best.com  Mon Nov  3 13:56:15 1997
From: landon at best.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:56:15 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711032133.NAA16067@shell9.ba.best.com>

> Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
> about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
> copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
> duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
> and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
> copy them.

  you can duplicate a CD for about $2, in half an hour

  i've already encountered some copy-protected software (the CD
duplicates don't work).  my guess is we'll see a lot more of this

> I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem

  check out the "warez" newsgroups...

  peace,

-landon

From jrussell at syncrypt.com  Mon Nov  3 14:05:50 1997
From: jrussell at syncrypt.com (Jim Russell)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:05:50 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
Message-ID: <01bce8a2$032602e0$2901320a@Polaris.domain>

>>Anybody heard of syncrypt?

I have.  Of course, being one of its authors, that's to be expected.

>>File wiping, group encryption, automatic encryption of files put in
certain directories... hiding encrypted files in pictures!

True, true, true and true.  I might add that the Secure Delete file wiping
passes Kent Briggs' "Directory Snoop" check on Windows 95.

>>It pulls them back out again too.

We'd have some unhappy customers if it didn't. 

>>Plus it has an interesting "20 questions" method for backing up your
passphrase.

For the algorithmically inclined among us, this was implemented via Shamir's
secret-sharing scheme.  There was also a great deal of discussion about what
questions to ask -- "What's your favorite color?" doesn't provide as much
entropy as "What was the last name of your favorite grade school teacher?",
for example.

>>Bruce Schneier is working with them, so they should have good crypto.

Yes, having Bruce and his colleague Chris Hall consulting with us was
invaluable.  They beat up on us pretty good during the betas, which is
exactly what we wanted.

>>No gak or even cak in sight.

Absolutely true.  Our enterprise level product, SynCrypt Gold, is currently
in development, and its data recovery features will be implemented in such a
way that it could *never* become an
infrastructure for GAK.

  Jim Russell 
  Chief Software Engineer
  SynData Technologies, Inc.
  http://www.syncrypt.com

From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 14:10:39 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:10:39 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <345E4500.5828@dev.null>

Having Tourette Syndrome can sometimes be a burden, particularly when
one goes through a long period where their obscene outbursts are serving
no particular purpose. So it is refreshing when I come across situations
where all of those huddled masses of naughty words, struggling to be
free, can be expressed in a meaningful manner, thus living a productive
life instead of being just wasted.

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
> reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]

  Rookie...

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
> From: Jodi Hoffman 
> To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
> 
> ALL:
> I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.

  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

> As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
> me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> society?

  Why do I get the feeling that this Dumb Cunt (TM) has 'all of the
answers' for society and everyone in it, and is about to share them 
with us?
  Well, if she expects us to listen to the divine wisdom of her
words from the mount, I guess she had better explain to us how we
are just dirt under her feet, so that we will realize we need to
listen and learn from her.

>  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> them.

  The shame! The shame!

>  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
> taken from someone.  

  Typo...*should* read "Only a moron knows..."

>Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
> to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
> would say.

  That's right...you ask AND answer the questions, and we'll just 
sit here and shut the fuck up.

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.

  Does "numerous attempts at convincing" translate to "expressed an
opinion I disagreed with?"

>  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

  Good idea to make vague, unsubstantiated claims in this area. If you
provided sources and references, someone might be able to throw them
back in your face and laugh at you for being an ignorant sack of shit,
using self-serving 'studies' to support untenable logic.

> So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.

  Protecting? Hell, I strive to share them with as many people as
possible. 

>  That's exactly what happened with the Hitler youth, etc...

  Uuhhh...you've got a 'study' to not-quote on this theory too, eh?

>  After all, I'm sure it does help
> to blur the lines of reality.

  This makes even less sense than the last sentence. Are you trying
to communicate propaganda that you don't fully understand?
  Perhaps you should just stick to slogans and sound-bytes, rather 
than trying to turn strings of disparate sentences into paragraphs.

> =====================

> Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
> through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
> being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
> phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
> ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
> reading this.
> Paul and Jodi Hoffman
> Weston, Florida
> 
> "When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
> calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
> speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
> (Hitler Youth Corps).

  Are you positive this quote isn't from Eisenhower, in regard to the
American public educational system?

> ==================================================
> LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
> These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
> and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
> Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
> the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
> the United States.
> Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
> happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
> answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
> answers.
> Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
> be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.

  Are you sure this wasn't Nixon, taling about Vietnam and Democracy?

> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

  Alright! Party time!

> THE RULE:
> The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
> religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
> from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
> involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
> rights.
>
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
> physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
> want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
> something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
> back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
> not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
> without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
> slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
> random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
> who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
> parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
> Soviet Union.
> The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
> nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
> good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
> it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  It sounds like the Dumb Cunt (TM) is suggesting that the former Soviet
Union would have been a better place to raise our kids.
  Yep, go to any high school and all the boys talk about is going over
to the maternity wing of the hospital and porking the little sluts as
they exit the womb. Honest! There are _studies_ that show this!

 > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
> 
> THE RULE:
> Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
> control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
> control the minds of the people.
>
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
> all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
> are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
> motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
> decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
> presented.
> Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
> governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
> particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
> "arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
> pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
> Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
> submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
> showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.
> 
> This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
> cold, hard reality.
> The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
> observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
> press itself.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  It is unconscienable for the mass media to hold traditional values 
up to scorn, and mock Ra, Isis, and the many, many gods who were born
of a virgin and died and rose after three days, the last of which was...
hang on, his name is on the tip of my tongue...Jesus!
  Remember: left wing values =/= decency and morality
  Is the Dumb Cunt telling us that the Moral Majority, which would
by definition be the "prevailing order of the day," are a bunch of
queer, violent aborionists with contempt for parental authority?
I _thought_ there was something weird about those fuckers.
  Those were non-Christian 'impartial' observers and study managers,
right? 

 > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
> 
> THE RULE:
> Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
> world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
> and lose respect for government leaders.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
> history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
> average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
> hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
> have the most open and honest political system in the world.

  Hold it!

  OK, continue...

>   The
> United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
> them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
> representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
> themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
> On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
> pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
> homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
> struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
> "Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
> things are run anyway!"

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  This is the communists doing this, again, right? Flouridated water,
etc?

> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
> 
> THE RULE:
> Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
> getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
> Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
> trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
> halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
> timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
> conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
> than in any other nation in the world.
> 
> Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
> or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
> them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
> to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
> cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
> Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
> concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
> "disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
> composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  If the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing bum-buddies would quit
opposing environmental concerns, animal-rights, sodomy and dozens 
of other Neoliberal causes, then there wouldn't be all of that 
bickering now, would there? 
  The TruthMonger of the fact is, the problem is that the "real issues
of importance" *_ARE_* the subject of "concrete action" by those who
have decided that their own conservative values should be legislated
into governmental existence in the interests of punishing and 
imprisoning those with different values.
  I've never seen anyone imprisoned for _not_ smoking a joint.
  Think about _that_ you Ignorant Nazi Bitch!

> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
> 
> THE RULE:
> Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
> ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
> ours.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
> by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
> other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
> a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
> in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.
> 
> Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
> media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
> traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
> claiming "impartiality."
> 
> Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
> people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
> groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
> time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?
> 
> In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
> valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).
> 
> Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
> the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
> international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
> condemnation.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  The Bibles were removed from the schools by the white Christian
kids barricaded inside, thowing the Bibles at the niggers, as they
tried to enter the school buildings. While waiting for the Bibles
to be replaced the students had nothing left to read but the
Constitution, and realized that the Bibles shouldn't have been
there in the first place.
  I would like to remind the Dumb Cunt that there are no laws
prohibiting her children from bowing and praying toward Mecca
three times a day, and it would probably do them some good.
  The rest of the points above merely serve to illustrate that
conservatives can't handle good acid, and should probably stick
to booze.

> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
> 
> THE RULE:
> Encourage government extravagance on every front.
> Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
> government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
> independence, motivation and strength.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
> earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
> dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
> homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
> education.
> 
> We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
> of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
> government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
> cutbacks in services are proposed.
> 
> And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.
> 
> They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
> health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
> socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  I agree with the Dumb Cunt (TM) on this point. We need to fuck
away our money on billions and billions of dollars of nuclear arms,
weapons, surveillance equipment, secret agents and assassins, etc.
  A decent and moral society can only be ensured by buying 10,000
toilet seats for the Pentagon.
  (Jesus. You _really_are_ a Dumb Cunt (TM), aren't you?)

> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
> 
> THE RULE:
> Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
> in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
> religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
> one interest:   Themselves!
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> >From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moral
> relativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The highest
> goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
> Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
> person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
> themselves.
> 
> Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
> faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
> one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
> alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
> their problems on society.
> 
> We have truly become the "me generation."

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  The Dumb Cunt (TM) is beginning to degenerate into drooling and
meaningless generalizations which make little sense.

> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP
> 
> THE RULE:
> Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
> confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
> thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
> well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
> every corner.
> 
> The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
> United States.
> 
> Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
> completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
> submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
> permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
> disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
> banned.
> After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
> every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
> parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
> illegal, women will still get abortions.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  I guess it was a mistake for the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing
bum-buddies to join the left-wing sodomy artists in electing so
goddamn many Communist gun-snatchers to political office.
  I think we ought to give Hinkley his gun back, as soon as 
another Republican is elected President.

 > RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
> 
> THE RULES:
> Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
> Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
> ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
> within the ranks.
> Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
> and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
> of their armed forces.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
> national product.
> We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
> our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
> (1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
> Congress, and
> (2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
> it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
> the new and streamlined armed services.
> 
> Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
> honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
> as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'
> 
> Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
> if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.
> 
> Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  And all of the good soldiers, like Tim McVeigh, end up leaving.

> FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
> ================================================================
> The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
> that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
> attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
> extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
> from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
> and from the United States itself.
> They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
> Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
> 21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
> These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
> revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
> Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
> any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
> great detail by many Americans.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  Vladimir Lenin's best friend in the whole, wide world, is the Dumb
Cunt (TM) and her Nazi Christian bum-buddies. 
  The Godless Communists and the Nazi Christians could trade their
brochures and just interchange the words  "Commie" and "Christian."

  I wish I had a penny for every Dumb Cunt (TM) and Stupid Prick (TM)
who spent the majority of their time promoting the very same beliefs
as those they claim to oppose, the only difference being that their
'solution' is the MLM promoting of a 'god' with a different name,
or a 'flag' with a different 'hang time.'

> --
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> 1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
> Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

  Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
at others?

Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
If it saves the life of just one child...

TruthMonger

From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 14:12:36 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:12:36 +0800
Subject: Export a random number, go to jail
In-Reply-To: <199711031002.CAA26848@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: 

At 9:46 AM -0700 11/3/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:

>: One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
>: forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
>: exportable.
>
>If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
>pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
>that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
>contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
>authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
>all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
>EAR.

"Export a random number, go to jail."

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From ryan at michonline.com  Mon Nov  3 14:15:04 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:15:04 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On 3 Nov 1997, Marc Horowitz wrote:

> Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
> about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
> copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
> duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
> and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
> copy them.

No, most game manufacturers have stopped worrying about piracy because no
matter wht ehy do about it, some cracker defeats it in under a week and
posts the whole game (or a useable subet) to the Internet.

Take Diablo, one of the more popular games of the last year.  It filled a
CD - 600 megabytes of sound, animations, etc.  It was *one* big file,
encrypted, with dlls stored inside it.

The guy who cracked it broke this in a week, chopped out a bunch of the
sounds that weren't adding anything to the game (most of the music, and
the voices of all the characters).  He ended up with 1 150 megabyte
version.  This got passed around the net.

This is *common*!  Over the last 20 years, the long-time game companies
have realized that it simply isn't worth th effort.  ID for example
doesn't even bother with a pretense of copy protection (at least with
Quake they didn't).  This probably contribted to the overwhelming success
of Quake.

In an even mildly technical group of friends, even teen-agers, somebody
probably has access to a CD-Rom burner.  It's trivial to spend a coupld of
days connnected to the net downloading the archives of a game, and burn
them onto a cCD to pass around to several friend to play.  (Or, have one
person buy the game, copy all the CDs, and return it.  This is trivial
with large computer chains such as CompUSA and Computer City)

Typically it will costy $6-$12 for a copy of a popular game in incremental
costs, with the game costing either $0 ro $50 depending on whether or not
someone wants the manuals (increasingly useless portion of the product,
BTW).  Startup hardwar costs are typicall $300-$500, and occassionally the
access is through work or school, reducing even this to virtually nothing.

It is interesting to note, however, that this problem seems to exist where
the lack of jobs and income prevent people from purchasing the games.
Typicall this is with students of middle-class (to upper-middle class)
families that are going to college and have little spare cash.  As soon as
this group begins to get the income necessary to support such a habit,
this trend changes.  So, I'm not sure it's something the game companies
care about, becuase they're simply locking in a portion of the market that
wasn't going to purchase the games anyway.

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 

My advice to Monty Cantsin or whomever actually wrote this: write shorter
pieces! The quote-and-coment style, especially for very long pieces,
usually results in people skipping huge sections, or the whole thing. I
only scanned this and stopped when I saw the word "cryptoanarchist."

At 4:41 AM -0700 11/3/97, Mix wrote:
(quoting someone else)

>>New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
>>from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.
>
>The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
>cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
>it clear from day one that it is not free software.  If you want to
>run it, you should buy it.  (The problem with share ware is that people
>get used to "borrowing" it.)

_This_ cryptoanarchist will almost _never_ pay for that which is free.

If someone gives me something, no strings attached, and then says, "Oh, the
"suggested donation" is $10," I tell them that they should have charged me
that in the first place. (I'm obviously not fond of leftie events which are
advertised as free, but which require a mandatory voluntary "suggested
donation.")

More to the point, I use various freebies I get off the Net. Some of them
have obscure schemes for sending payments to the alleged authors. Too much
hassle. And if it's _free_, why pay anything?

Charityware is not a viable business model.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 14:27:35 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:27:35 +0800
Subject: I Hold These Truths To Be Self-Evident
Message-ID: <345E4733.5069@dev.null>

BASIC TRUTHS
Everyone has a photographic memory.  Some don't have film. 
A day without sunshine is like, night.
Diplomacy is saying "nice doggy " until you find a rock. 
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
Back up my hard drive? How do I put it in reverse?
I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. 
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.
Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it. 
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't. 
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe. 
He's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be 
misquoted, then used against you.
I wonder how much deeper would the ocean be without sponges.
Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular? 
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization. 
He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Nov  3 14:35:30 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:35:30 +0800
Subject: www.cypherpunks.to
Message-ID: <999fc34491ff840a6074ef2fcc763b96@anon.efga.org>

What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.

From wabe at smart.net  Mon Nov  3 14:39:05 1997
From: wabe at smart.net (wabe)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:39:05 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <01bce8be$792f3b20$d27f61ce@dave>

Dear Jodi-

So occasionally I like to turn these arguments around in my head:

Why should the smart, mature people under 18 in this
country be penalized because your immature, mentally 
retarded and over-fragile kids can't seem to handle
the sight of naked people?  What if I wanted to protect
my children from the evils of Christianity?  Could I 
ban that from the internet with the same sort of
high horse the anti-porn people seem to be riding?

 And damage and change are completely different things.  We're
all changed by our experiences.  Some people among us were 
apparantly beat over the head with dirty pictures as children
and are now horribly afraid of them.

The other bits in her letter (The bible being thrown out
of public schools for example) were just plain lies.

It's sad that when most of America has to chose between
its essential freedoms and the most trivial of
protection from objectionable thought, that we chose
to lose the freedoms.  

_______________________________________
-wabe

From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 14:59:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:59:58 +0800
Subject: Charityware
Message-ID: 

My advice to Monty Cantsin or whomever actually wrote this: write shorter
pieces! The quote-and-coment style, especially for very long pieces,
usually results in people skipping huge sections, or the whole thing. I
only scanned this and stopped when I saw the word "cryptoanarchist."

At 4:41 AM -0700 11/3/97, Mix wrote:
(quoting someone else)

>>New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
>>from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.
>
>The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
>cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
>it clear from day one that it is not free software.  If you want to
>run it, you should buy it.  (The problem with share ware is that people
>get used to "borrowing" it.)

_This_ cryptoanarchist will almost _never_ pay for that which is free.

If someone gives me something, no strings attached, and then says, "Oh, the
"suggested donation" is $10," I tell them that they should have charged me
that in the first place. (I'm obviously not fond of leftie events which are
advertised as free, but which require a mandatory voluntary "suggested
donation.")

More to the point, I use various freebies I get off the Net. Some of them
have obscure schemes for sending payments to the alleged authors. Too much
hassle. And if it's _free_, why pay anything?

Charityware is not a viable business model.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From jlhoffm at ibm.net  Mon Nov  3 15:10:16 1997
From: jlhoffm at ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:10:16 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <345E53EF.14BB@ibm.net>

TruthMonger wrote:

Monger:

Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
By the way...for whatever it's worth:
#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  
#3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
- Darth Vader
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

From lizard at mrlizard.com  Mon Nov  3 15:23:48 1997
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:23:48 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971103150536.00c76d00@dnai.com>

At 05:45 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>TruthMonger wrote:
>
>
>Monger:
>
>Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
>By the way...for whatever it's worth:
>#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

Jews, of all the people on this planet, should be the last to burn books.
We have always been a nation of scholars and readers, and the only reason
we still exist as a people is because we kept our books sacred. A Jew may
violate any commandment to save his own life, save one -- he may not
desecrate the Torah. Our culture survived through two millennia of
persecution because we had books with which we kept it alive. That you are
a bookburner is sickening to me.

Please, convert or something. I have an Uncle who would be glad to tell you
all the benefits of becoming a Christian. The Muslims would probably love
you, too. Or consider Buddhism. Anything. Please. I admit to being an
agnostic, to eating pork, to never knowing quite when Yom Kippur is...but I
still have some tiny, thin, shreds of pride in my ancestry and my heritage.

>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

You are a bookburner. That is enough for me.

From nobody at neva.org  Mon Nov  3 15:26:31 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:26:31 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711032308.RAA15514@multi26.netcomi.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Declan "Socrates" McCullagh wrote:
>[Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
>reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
>From: Jodi Hoffman 
>To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
>
>ALL:
>I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.
>
>Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
>Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the
>freezing drizzle.  I really thought we could make a difference,
>standing there with our banner and signs, one of which read, "DON'T
>SACRIFICE MY CHILD ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT."  Stupid me.
>As the saying goes...we've come a long way, baby.
>
>As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns
>on me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
>nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
>brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
>you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
>society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
>them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
>taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I
>have to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not
>many, I would say.

Hoffman's claim that she is unable to control what her child sees is
weak.  It's easy enough keep kids off the Net.  It's easy to buy
software that only reveals approved parts of the Net.

So what is it about our Constitution that Hoffman finds so offensive?
It certainly doesn't harm her own child.

If we were to be charitable, we would say that she is concerned about
other people's children seeing pornography.  The only problem is, that
the parents of these children are just as able as she is to control
their involvement with the Net.  Yet, apparently, she is unhappy with
the choices these parents are making and wishes to overrule them.  At
best, this is inconsistent with her claim that she believes parents
should decide what their own children see.

If we were to be accurate, instead of charitable, we would observe
that it is most likely that Hoffman is offended by pornography in
general, no matter who sees it.  For instance, this statement refers
to an adult, not a child: "So, keep protecting your porn-induced
orgasms."

Rather than stating her beliefs openly and honestly, she is hiding
behind children, particularly her own child, to put promote her
outrageous, unconstitutional, and un-American totalitarian policies.
(Hoffman may not even be completely conscious of her own motivations.
Often, this sort of person begins with an agenda, and then works him
or herself up into a rage using other reasons for the justification,
somewhat reminiscent of the "Two Minute Hate" sessions described in
Orwell's "1984".)

I said a few days ago that people who would use the excuse of
protecting children to promote their own twisted agenda are the lowest
of the low.  Hoffman is, I believe, a perfect example.  I pity her
child.

This is also a good example of why the use of remailers is advisable.
It lowers the odds that some whacko will come after you with an axe.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From ulf at fitug.de  Mon Nov  3 15:44:38 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:44:38 +0800
Subject: A Legal Strategy
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Monty Cantsin writes:

>Now, you are in an interesting situation.  You can't give the
>passwords for half of the disks, but you are unable to prove this.
>This means you have nothing to gain by giving the pass phrase to the
>"Ulysses" disk - you will always be seen as holding out.  Even if you
>convince the Judge that some of the disks are noise, you have no
>reason not to include the "Ulysses" disk in this set.

Bryan Olson once discussed something like this in a sci.crypt post:

From berezina at qed.net  Mon Nov  3 15:55:35 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:55:35 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <346258f1.10008797@mail.qed.net>

Jodi Hoffman  wrote:

>By the way...for whatever it's worth:
>#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

This makes you a Nazi-loving Jewish bitch. I concur in Monger's assessment
of you as a Dumb Cunt. To expand on this, nearly every position you take is
fascist -- to pick one at random, you accuse the American people of physical
flabbiness. Now, who -- in the nineteen-thirties -- abhorred such flabbiness
in the German people & made a show of public exercise rituals:

1. Jewish Intellectuals.
2. Nazis.

Not a coincidence, either. Sedentary activities include reading, discussion,
writing, &c. -- all abhorred by fascists. Yet you claim to oppose fascism.
Dumb cunt. & this is the most trivial example.

>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

To a degree, true. But apply the principle to others: you know as little, or
less, about me than I know about you. Stop trying to dictate my life.

>#3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

You're right? Sorry, I must have missed that. Was your post cyphertext?

>"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
>- Darth Vader

Yes, Darth Vader was a card-carrying member of the ACLU.

Paul

The final elegance, not to console
Nor sanctify, but plainly to propound.

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Nov  3 16:11:50 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:11:50 +0800
Subject: CMR/ARR revisited
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103115159.0894a320@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199711032338.XAA02005@server.test.net>

Jon Callas suggests that CMR has been discussed vigorously.  What was
the outcome?

Here's a short summary of a more secure and less politically
controversial alternative to CMR:

1. Escrow employee company use encryption keys.
2. Don't escrow employee personal use encryption keys.
3. Don't escrow employee company use signature keys.

As pgp5 packet format already supports multiple encryption sub keys
attached to signature keys, all that has to be done to support the
above is to put comments in the userID to say what purpose the keys
are for:

Jon Callas  (personal use)
Jon Callas  (company use)

Provide support in the business verion of the software to escrow the
company use key.  Provide support for both company use and personal
use keys.  If some companies want to disallow personal use, you might
consider adding this feature.

The above is already provided for without CMR/ARR.

CMR/ARR fields add political and security risks, so why bother?

So what is PGP Inc's position on the future of CMR?

Is it going to be phased out?

Is it going in the OpenPGP standard?

Are there any security, privacy or political objections to local
escrow?

Enciphering minds want to know...

Adam

From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov  3 16:42:16 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:42:16 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
Message-ID: 

Lucky Green wrote:

>Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
>this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows
>this. He simply hopes that there are some people that don't know this. The
>idea behind the original post and others like it over the last few days is
>to spread FUD about PGP 5.0 after other attacks failed for lack of merrit.
>If you repeat a lie often enough, eventually some people will believe you.
>PSYOPS 101. Let's not fall for it.

>[Yes, I know that DSA keys can not be read by PGP 2.6. Neither will Word
>1.0 read Word 7.0 files. So what?]

Let me guess, Lucky, you're using Windows, right? If I was a Windows user
exclusively I probably wouldn't give a damn either. Robert's version is
compatable because he's gone to strides to *make* it compatable. Most users
haven't done this.

PGP Inc. has taken a *multi-platform* *network-wide* system and broken it.
They released a Windows version months ago completely severing lines of
communication between 5.0 and 2.x users. 

Finally, after months, they get around to releasing a UNIX version so that
everybody else can use PGP 5.x. Of course the damned thing *still* isn't
stable, *still* has a timebomb in it, and *still* has the command line
broken. PGP Inc. recommends that people report bugs, get new versions, etc.
at http://beta.pgp.com, but as was covered in detail in another posting that
site is a pretty much disabled (or incomplete if you want to think of it
that way).

Microsoft Word is something completely different. We aren't distributing
Word 7.0 documents all over the Internet as a standard communications
practice.

When I encrypt a message to you using PGP 2.6, I'm using a version of a
program which is released for certain platforms. When I encrypt a message to
you using PGP 5.0 I'm using a version which is released for certain
platforms, but not all the platforms 2.x was available on. 5.x produces
messages which are incompatable with 2.x. As a result 2.x users, which
includes the UNIX community (which, last I checked, was rather large), 
are excluded from the message traffic the Windows users are sending
around. Of course I'm talking about signatures and sometimes encryption, 
but, again, last I checked that was a major reason to use PGP in the first 
place.

Then again, given the quality of the average Window user's message traffic
on the network today maybe that isn't such a great loss.

It should be worthy of note that I'd be using one of the betas for 5.x right
now if the PGP folks hadn't purposefully broken every script known to man. I
can comment out the timebomb for the expired (i.e. broken in yet another
way) versions they're releasing, or at least were as of last week.

Let's redefine SMTP, NNTP, FTP, and HTTP so that they looks nothing like what 
currently exists, install it on major providers, and write a set of UNIX 
clients. When Windows and Mac users complain about this we can all stand up 
proudly and proclaim that they'll just have to wait a few months for somebody 
to write the software which will allow them to again take part, and that their
complaining about this completely idiotic tactic is "FUD". And, of course,
since the SMTP2, NNTP2, HTTP2, and FTP2 protocols are so much better than
their previous versions (that wouldn't be too hard) this is all very smart and
nobody should mind.

If PGP Inc. had released a sane UNIX version along with their Mac and
Winblows versions there would be considerably less bitching happening right
now. Hell, they could have released patches for 2.6. Instead they've waited 
months and still don't have one out which works.

From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Nov  3 16:50:47 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:50:47 +0800
Subject: www.cypherpunks.to
In-Reply-To: <999fc34491ff840a6074ef2fcc763b96@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.

The server works fine and I can reach it from the US.

-- Lucky Green  PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

From emc at wire.insync.net  Mon Nov  3 16:51:13 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:51:13 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman Must Bite My Johnson
In-Reply-To: <199711032057.MAA08856@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <199711040037.SAA08312@wire.insync.net>

One of those Ranting, Spewing, anti-Porn FemiNazis Belches:

> Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
> Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the
> freezing drizzle.

Thus the "right" of parents to subject their minor children to
freezing drizzle, but not naked pictures, is affirmed.

> me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> them.

Actually, many of us have known for a long time that "child
protection" is just a codeword for "child disempowerment." Thanks for
confirming this.

The parents who whine the loudest about porn are the same parents who
want a Constitutional Ammendment declaring that those who do not vote
have no civil liberties, that anything short of lasting physical
injury is not abuse, and that the goverment has no power to interfere
with the "right" of parents to do as they wish to their slaves.

Fortunately, the Net is and will continue to be a level playing field,
which is ability-based, and not age-based.

> Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be taken
> from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.

Perish the thought.  I mean, it is inconceivable to some people that
any minor inconvenience on the part of some adult is not worth entire
gas chambers full of people under 18.

> I have to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not
> many, I would say. Someone on this list, I forget who, has made
> numerous attempts at convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to
> children.

One wonders why the first word out of the mouth of any self-righteous
scumbag sexuophobic parent when they are disagreed with is - "You
obviously don't have children."

> It is exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have
> shown that an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a
> second, within five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in
> the brain. Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in
> a child.

"Change" is not the same as "damage." Of course you probably regard
anyone as damaged who is not a frothing sexually inhibited lunatic
like yourself.

> So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
> happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does
> help to blur the lines of reality.

"Puritanism" might be defined as the fear that someone, somewhere, is
having a porn-induced orgasm.  Stable people tend to worry about their
own orgasms, and not their neighbors.  Perhaps if you had a few
orgasms yourself, you might lose interest in the orgasms of others.

[Nonsense Deleted]

Please bite my enormous throbbing love sausage with an ice cube in your
mouth. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

From vznuri at netcom.com  Mon Nov  3 16:55:14 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:55:14 +0800
Subject: NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict
Message-ID: <199711040042.QAA13874@netcom8.netcom.com>

------- Forwarded Message

From: KALLISTE at delphi.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 02:51:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SNET: NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran War
To: snetnews at world.std.com

- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

       NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict

                    by J. Orlin Grabbe

	One of the dirty little secrets of the 1980s is that 
the U.S. regularly provided Iraq's Saddam Hussein with 
top-secret communication intercepts by the U.S. National 
Security Agency (NSA).  Consider the evidence.

	When in 1991 the government of Kuwait paid the 
public relations firm of Hill & Knowlton ten million 
dollars to drum up American war fever against the evil 
dictator Hussein, it brought about the end of a long legacy 
of cooperation between the U.S. and Iraq.  Hill & 
Knowlton resurrected the World War I propaganda story 
about German soldiers roasting Belgian babies on 
bayonets, updated in the form of a confidential witness 
(actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the 
U.S.) who told Congress a tearful story of Iraqi soldiers 
taking Kuwaiti babies out of incubators and leaving them 
on the cold floor to die.  President George Bush then 
repeated this fabricated tale in speeches ten times over the 
next three days.

	What is remarkable about this staged turn of 
events is that, until then, Hussein had operated largely 
with U.S. approval.  This cooperation had spanned three 
successive administrations, starting with Jimmy Carter.  
As noted by John R. MacArthur, "From 1980 to 1988, 
Hussein had shouldered the burden of killing about 
150,000 Iranians, in addition to at least thirteen thousand 
of his own citizens, including several thousand unarmed 
Kurdish civilians, and in the process won the admiration 
and support of elements of three successive U.S. 
Administrations" [1].

	Hussein's artful slaughter of Iranians was aided by 
good military intelligence.  The role of NSA in the 
conflict is an open secret in Europe, the Middle East, and 
Asia.  Only in this country has there been a relative news 
blackout, despite the fact that it was the U.S. 
administration that let the crypto cat out of the bag.  

	First, U.S. President Ronald Reagan informed the 
world on national television that the United States was 
reading Libyan communications.  This admission was part 
of a speech justifying the retaliatory bombing of Libya for 
its alleged involvement in the La Belle discotheque 
bombing in Berlin's Schoeneberg district, where two U.S. 
soldiers and a Turkish woman were killed, and 200 others 
injured. Reagan wasn't talking about American 
monitoring of Libyan news broadcasts. Rather, his "direct, 
precise, and undeniable proof"  referred to secret 
(encrypted) diplomatic communication between Tripoli 
and the Libyan embassy in East Berlin.

	Next, this leak was compound by the U.S. 
demonstration that it was also reading secret Iranian 
communications.  As reported in Switzerland's Neue 
Z�rcher Zeitung,  the U.S. provided the contents of 
encrypted Iranian messages to France to assist in the 
conviction of Ali Vakili Rad and Massoud Hendi for the 
stabbing death in the Paris suburb of Suresnes of the 
former Iranian prime minister Shahpour Bakhtiar and his 
personal secretary Katibeh Fallouch. [2]

	What these two countries had in common was they 
had both purchased cryptographic communication 
equipment from the Swiss firm Crypto AG. Crypto AG 
was founded in 1952 by the (Russian-born) Swedish 
cryptographer Boris Hagelin who located his company in  
Zug.  Boris had created the "Hagelin-machine", a 
encryption device similar to the German "Enigma".  The 
Hagelin machine was used on the side of the Allies in 
World War II.

	Crypto AG was an old and venerable firm, and 
Switzerland was a neutral country. So Crypto AG's 
enciphering devices for voice communication and digital 
data networks were popular, and customers came from 
130 countries. These included the Vatican, as well the 
governments of Iraq, Iran, and Libya.  Such countries 
were naturally skeptical of cryptographic devices sold in 
many NATO countries, so turned to relatively neutral 
Switzerland for communication security.

	Iran demonstrated its suspicion about the source of 
the leaks, when it arrested Hans Buehler, a top salesman 
for Crypto AG, in Teheran on March 18, 1992.  During 
his nine and a half months of solitary confinement in Evin 
prison in Teheran, Buehler was questioned again and 
again whether he had leaked Teheran's codes or Libya's 
keys to Western powers.  Luckily Buehler didn't know 
anything.  He in fact believed in his own sales pitch that 
Crypto AG was a neutral company and its equipment was 
the best.  They were Swiss, after all.  [3]

	Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for 
Buehler's release in January 1993, then promptly fired 
him once they had reassured themselves that he hadn't 
revealed anything important under interrogation, and 
because Buehler had begun to ask some embarrassing 
questions. Then reports appeared on Swiss television, 
Swiss Radio International, all the major Swiss papers, and 
in German magazines like Der Spiegel.  Had Crypto AG's 
equipment been spiked by Western intelligence services? 
the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4].

	 Swiss television traced the ownership of Crypto 
AG to a company in Liechtenstein, and from there back to 
a trust company in Munich. A witness appearing on Swiss 
television explained the real owner was the German 
government--the Federal Estates Administration. [5]

	According to Der Spiegel, all but 6 of the 6000 
shares of Crypto AG were at one time owned by Eugen 
Freiberger, who resided in Munich and was head of the 
Crypto AG managing board in 1982. Another German, 
Josef Bauer, an authorized tax agent of the Muenchner 
Treuhandgesellschaft KPMG, and who was elected to the 
managing board in 1970, stated that his mandate had 
come from the German company Siemens.  Other 
members of Crypto AG's management had also worked at 
Siemens. Was the German secret service, the 
Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), hiding behind the 
Siemens' connection?

	So it would seem.  Der Spiegel reported that in 
October 1970, a secret meeting of the BND had discussed 
how the Swiss company Graettner could be guided into 
closer cooperation with Crypto AG, or could even merged 
with it. The BND additionally considered how "the 
Swedish company Ericsson could be influenced through 
Siemens to terminate its own cryptographic business." [6]

	A former employee of Crypto AG reported that he 
had to coordinate his developments with "people from 
Bad Godesberg". This was the location of the "central 
office for encryption affairs" of the BND, and the service 
instructed Crypto AG what algorithms to use to create the 
codes.  The employee also remembers an American 
"watcher", who strongly demanded the use of certain 
encryption methods.

	Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG 
often. A memorandum of  a secret workshop at Crypto 
AG in August 1975, where a new prototype of an 
encryption device was demonstrated, mentions the 
participation of Nora L. Mackebee, an NSA 
cryptographer. Motorola engineer Bob Newman says that 
Mackebee was introduced to him as a "consultant".  
Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG in the seventies in 
developing a new generation of electronic encryption 
machines.   The Americans "knew Zug very well and gave 
travel tips to the Motorola people for the visit at Crypto 
AG," Newman told Der Spiegel.

	Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto 
AG enciphering process, developed in cooperation with 
the NSA and the German company Siemans, involved 
secretly embedding the decryption key in the cipher text.  
Those who knew where to look could monitor the 
encrypted communication, then extract the decryption key 
that was also part of the transmission, and recover the 
plain text message.  Decryption of a message by a 
knowledgeable third party was not any more difficult that 
it was for the intended receiver.  (More than one method 
was used.  Sometimes the algorithm was simply deficient, 
with built-in exploitable weaknesses.)

	Crypto AG denies all this, of course, saying such 
reports are ""pure invention".

	What information was provided to Saddam 
Hussein exactly?  Answers to this question are currently 
being sought in a lawsuit against NSA in New Mexico, 
which has asked to see "all Iranian messages and 
translations between January 1, 1980 and June 10, 1996". 
[7]

	The passage of top-secret communications 
intelligence to someone like Saddam Hussein brings up 
other questions.  Which dictator is the U.S. passing top 
secret messages to currently?  Jiang Zemin?  Boris 
Yeltsin?  

	Will Saddam Hussein again become a recipient of 
NSA largess if he returns to the mass slaughter of 
Iranians?  What exactly is the purpose of NSA anyway?

	One more question:  Who is reading the Pope's 
communications?

                   Bibliography

[1] John R. MacArthur, Second Front: Censorship and 
Propaganda in the Gulf War, Hill and Wang, New York, 
1992.

[2] Some of the background of this assassination can be 
found in "The Tehran Connection," Time Magazine, 
March 21, 1994.

[3] The Buehler case is detailed in Res Strehle, 
Verschleusselt: der Fall Hans Beuhler, Werd Verlag, 
Zurich, 1994.  

[4] "For years, NSA secretly rigged Crypto AG machines 
so that U.S. eavesdroppers could easily break their codes, 
according to former company employees whose story is 
supported by company documents,"  "No Such Agency, 
Part 4: Rigging the Game," The Baltimore Sun, December 
4, 1995.

[5] Reported in programs about the Buehler case that were 
broadcast on Swiss Radio International on May 15, 1994 
and July 18, 1994.

[6]  "Wer ist der befugte Vierte?":  Geheimdienste 
unterwandern den Schutz von Verschlusselungsgeraten," 
Der Spiegel 36, 1996.

[7] U.S. District Court for the District of New Mexico, 
William H. Payne, Arthur R. Morales, Plaintiffs, v. 
Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, Director 
of National Security Agency, National Security Agency, 
Defendant, CIV NO 97 0266 SC/DJS.

- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo at world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: KALLISTE at delphi.com

------- End of Forwarded Message

From tcmay at got.net  Mon Nov  3 17:18:16 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:18:16 +0800
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
Message-ID: 

A few weeks ago I said that I thought the real reason for PGP's CMR
features and Policy Management Agent had little to do with the reasons
being discussed (by PGP employees, amongst others), things like "What if
Joe is not at his desk and his boss wants to access his encrypted e-mail?"
(and variants).

 I explicitly speculated that the real reason had more to do with snooping
on employees, with the corporate security and IS departments monitoring
what is being sent and received, etc. I even mentioned compliance with SEC,
FTC, and other agency rules.

(And I'm not saying such compliance isn't a valid concern, even a mandated
concern. And I'm not questioning the property rights of business owners to
enforce policies on their property with their equipment as they see fit. I
just think PGP is being disingenuous in saying they are not actually
building in snoopware. They are, and the very same objections Phil
Zimmermann had to Viacrypt's snoopware applies to PGP 5.5 and its "Policy
Management Agent.")

Well, it appears the real reason is now emerging.

In the 1997-10-27 issue of "Macweek," an article on corporate use of
crypto, including PGP, appears. "Mac encryption finding its way into
corporations," by Larry Stevens, p. 27.

Much discussion of crypto, symmetric vs. asymmetric approaches, reasons
companies haven't been using crypto, etc.

The final paragraph summarizes a key point:

"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
regulations.""

Note: I presume "IT" stands for Information Technology, or somesuch. That
is, some corporate Information Services or Computer Services group. In
other words, snoops in some department need to use the Policy Management
Agent to monitor messages.

Perhaps PGP, Inc. will say that Gartner Group does not speak for them. Fair
enough. But I think the Gartner comments correctly capture the real reason
we hear that corporations are insisting on snoopware.

And, incredibly dangerously for us all, why the SEC, FTC, OSHA, IRS, and
other agencies may seize on CMR as a feature which "must" be turned on,
with archives of messages kept, etc. Were I a bureaucrat in their shoes, I
know I would certainly want CMR mandated. "Not for Big Brother, but to
ensure compliance with corporate regulatory rules."

This is the dangerous world PGP, Inc. is helping to build. And I expect now
that RSADSI will enter this snoopware arms race and thus the escalation
will begin in earnest.

Sadly, had PGP kept true to its core foundations of personal privacy, it
might have been able to exert some moral guidance and slow down this
headlong rush into a snoopware world. But by becoming the annointed leader
of Corporate Message Recovery and Policy Management Agent products, the
other companies can jump in with their own snoopware products, pointing to
PGP. Sad. Very sad.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 17:22:00 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:22:00 +0800
Subject: Need info! / Re: Export a random number, go to jail
Message-ID: <199711040106.CAA04679@basement.replay.com>

Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:46 AM -0700 11/3/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:
> 
> >: One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
> >: forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
> >: exportable.
> >
> >If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
> >pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
> >that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
> >contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
> >authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
> >all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
> >EAR.
> 
> "Export a random number, go to jail."

Is it legal to export '37'?
How about '148'?
'276'?
'3,289,534'?
'6.33458'?

Thanks,
A Fucking Iditot

From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 17:22:01 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:22:01 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <345E7485.1A49@dev.null>

Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> Monger: 
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.

  So you approve of my therapeutic self-abuse during email exchanges?
Looks like internet communication *does* help people to put aside
their differences and reach a common ground.

> By the way...for whatever it's worth:

  On the CypherPunks list, the going rate is $.02

> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

  It's OK, I won't tell anyone you killed Jesus.

> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.

  Only from your pictures on the 'Amateur Action' web site.

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

  I am happy that you are able to find joy and increased self-esteem 
in imputing specific motives and emotives to the mad ramblings of an
obviously raving fucking lunatic, such as myself.
  Like yourself, I have very little idea of just what it was you were 
really trying to express in _your_ rambling semi-coherent missive,
and, the truth be known, I was just trying to make small talk while
trying to work up the courage to ask you if you were wearing any
panties, but I chickened out when I remembered what a savage beating
Cynthia Brown (a girl cypherpunk) gave me when I asked her.

> Jodi Hoffman   T.R.A.M.P.  http://www.go_sin.com/tramp
> Violation of Children/Research & Education Council of America

  Thanks for replying to my email. It's the first one I ever got.
Everyone else just ignores me. Go figure...

TruthMonger

From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 17:34:05 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:34:05 +0800
Subject: Higher Horses / Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <01bce8be$792f3b20$d27f61ce@dave>
Message-ID: <345E6D7D.2474@dev.null>

Wannabe Smart, in a searching for the right caliber of logic, wrote: 
> Dear Jodi-
> So occasionally I like to turn these arguments around in my head:

  Why bother, when there are so many people already willing to do
it for you?

> What if I wanted to protect
> my children from the evils of Christianity?  Could I
> ban that from the internet with the same sort of
> high horse the anti-porn people seem to be riding?

  That's it! The answer is 'Higher Horses'!!!

> The other bits in her letter (The bible being thrown out
> of public schools for example) were just plain lies.

  Beware of Christians bearing facts...

> It's sad that when most of America has to chose between
> its essential freedoms and the most trivial of
> protection from objectionable thought, that we chose
> to lose the freedoms.

  Is that 'regular' choice, 'voluntary-mandatory' choice, or
a new type of choice which is currently being developed in
secret underground labs by reptilian Nazis?

  Higher 'Trojan' Horses...yeah!...

TruthMonger

From ryan at michonline.com  Mon Nov  3 17:36:16 1997
From: ryan at michonline.com (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:36:16 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.

More so than any other event lasting three-tenths of a second?  I doubt
it. Visual centers of the brain are certinly not predisposed to treat
natural acts (even if depicted in somewhat unusal circumstances) as any
different than any other visual stimuli.  You're distorting the issue
geratly here.

> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

In what sense?  In the sense that the child's view of the world doesn't
fully agree with yours?  Or in the sense that there is actual physical
damage to the brain that imparis the brains ability to function?  I might
believe that the former occurs, but not the latter.  

>So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
>happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
>to blur the lines of reality.

Name calling really doesn't help contribute to a clear view of reality
either.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH
>THE REALITY:
>Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
>physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
[...]
>without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
>slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
>random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
>who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
>parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
>Soviet Union.

Who are you blaming for this?  the media or the parents that are
neglecting their duties as parents?  If you want a child to have certain
values and bleief structures, you must teach them those structures when
they are young.  You can't ignore them and expect the TV to do the job for
oyu.  If you're complaining about problems in the youth, the blame is
squarely on the shoulders of parents who don't take care of their children
or talk to them.

>The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
>nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
>good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
>it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

When these same children are increasingly treated in such a way as to have
no control over their own lives, and when their parents seem to be
driving the country into the ground, what kind of attitude do you expect?
This attitude is a mirror of the prevailing attitude in the country, and
those people that have become large-scale media figures.  The fact that
*Mike Tyson* can draw over $50 million dollars for a stupid boxing match
does nothing to improve the attitudes of today's youth.  

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
>Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
>governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A

IF this matieral offends you, eliminate it from your viewing habits, and
instruct your children as to why these types of material are offensive.

But you must remember, our Constitution was built upon the tenets of not
enforcing one person's religious beliefs upon another.  The Mayflower came
over to avoid religious persecution, the Quakers came over for similar
reasons.  Ignoring the fact that they immediately went on a were no
better, the country holds a tenet of reiligous tolerance.  This extends to
those areas where we may find things strange and offensive.  Buddhists,
(my spelling may be wrong, let me apologize now for that), etc, may have
religious observances that just make no sense to you, some may even
include ritual homosexuality.  You can't seek ot impose your belief
structure, (which is by far the minority int eh world) on the rest of the
world! 

>particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
>"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
>pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
>Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
>submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
>showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.

And you think the Ancient Greeks and Romans felt any different about the
roots of the Christian religion?  Look for the symbology behind the art.
Perhaps the artist is trying to demonstrate his frustration with the
religions today in their unquestioning belief in mythical figures and
their lack of acceptance of a chanign culture?  Maybe not, may he just
wanted to make fun of the4 savior so he'd be guarnateed a chance to meet
Satan.  

>This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
>cold, hard reality.

And the other cold-hard reality is that the media doesn't give a damn what
th epeople think - even Labor Unions are left out of this so-called
"left-wing bias".  If you haven't realized it already, there are only 2 or
3 large voices left in the national media that aren't dominated by large
businesses.  (NY Times, Washington Post and Wall Stree Journal are my
picks, Declan, feel free to clarify or expand if you want)  Most of the
rest of the TV stations, Radio stations and newspapers are owned by
sseveral large comapnies, or the networks.  

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
>THE REALITY:
>Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
>history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
>average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
>hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
>have the most open and honest political system in the world. 

The reason the media questions the government and poitns out every
instance of corruption they can find is so that we maintain our position
of leadership in open and honest government.  If they don't question
things that seem wrong, things will only get worse.

We *are* worse off now than 50 years ago.  I live near Detroit, and go to
school and work in Detroit.  Detroit is a city suffering from a rampant
and immovible city bureacracy that wont' change.  This is something the
local media is gradually attempting to expose and force to improve,
because the area wants to see the city continue its improvemtns!

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
>THE REALITY:
>Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
>Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
>trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
>halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
>timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
>conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
>than in any other nation in the world.

Environmental concerns are almost never trivial.  We can afford a few
trivial environmental concerns if they help us stop wiping out the planet.
We are running dangerously low in old-growth forest, El-Nino is a yearly
occurence now when it used to occur once ever 7.  We have serious global
warming concerns at this point, and we have serious ground-water depletion
and contamination problems.  

Animal rights activists would never have developed any public sympathy if
it weren't for ridiculous abuses by cosmetic companies and drug companies.
(Yes, they really did kill thousands of animals for studies of dubious
value)

>Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
>or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
>them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead

ahahahahaha, these have gotten *much* more press and concern that any of
the above issues.  Any mention of these creates problems in *any*
political campaign.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
>THE REALITY:
>If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
>by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
>other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
>a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
>in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.

There is little to no porography being distribute in our schools.  And the
Supreme Court has rulesd that teaching *any* religion in public schools is
tantamount to the government favoring that religion over others.  If you
can't see that this is a clear violoation of the Constitution, you're not
reading it very well.

>Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
>the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
>international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
>condemnation.

Oh, that's because we feel a moral responsibility to do the right thing
when meddling in foreign affairs.  Frequently we've screwed up and are
attempting to correct for past mistakes.  (Persian Gulf War, for example).
There are limits to our influence in the world.  WE can't force China to
change policies, they could simply ignore us.  

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
>THE REALITY:  The United States is flat broke. It is the number one
>debtor nation on earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000
>(five trillion dollars).  Social programs pay for everything from 
>abortion and homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to
>comprehensive sex education. 

funny.  Many economists have been saying that the debt really doesn't
matter.  The entire western world is debt-ridden in the governments, it
hasn't really affected us a heck of a lot.  Sounds like you're objecting
to public money being spent on those things which offend you, while
ignoring the public money spent on things which don't offend you.

>They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
>health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
>socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

So you don't object to family funded benefits for lesbians?  (Note: I
don't believe they qualify as sodomites even under the wierdest
definitions)  Oh, you also object to all the people who perform oral sex
getting family benefits? doh!

Giving family benefits to all people who are living together, sharing
expenses and loving each other is a truly humane act.  Denying them
because you find their style of life or religion offensive is by far the
more evil act.  those who don't marry under state law because that law
doesn't fit their religious belifs get punished under current laws.
(Unless they work for IBM, Microsoft, The University of Michigan, etc)

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
>THE RULE:
>Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
>in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
>religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
>one interest:   Themselves!

Funny.  Whatever happened to Native American beliefs?

>Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
>faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
>one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
>alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
>their problems on society.

They don't have a very successful job at it.  Most blame abusive parents,
and get put in jail anyway.

>We have truly become the "me generation."

Whose fault is that?   I notice that now you seem to be for entitlement
programs, or at least helping others.  Make up your mind.

>RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
>THE REALITY:
>Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
>national product.
>We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
>our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
>(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
>Congress, and

You want the US Military to wander the world picking fights?  Like the
Persian Gulf?  Which was a Bush-administration fuck up in the first place?
A cautious Congress is a much better deal than one that just blindly
authorizes every military action.

Remember the words of our founders (Damit, I forget which one):  Avoid
foreign entaglements.  (Or something to that effect.  I'm braindead and
away from my reference materials right now)

>(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
>it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
>the new and streamlined armed services.

New and streamlined?  bloated with intel and officers, low on combat
troops.  And this reputation is as much the military's fault as anything.
I was talking to some active Marines 3 weeks ago.  They all bitched about
it and wished that they hadn't gone in.  One sargeant, One Corporal, and
one Army Sargeant.   

Most of the US has an enormous respect for the military.  We just don't
think we should use this power very often.  We use it too much as it is.

>Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
>if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.

Where do you get this shit?

>Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

umm. no.  We learned that lesson sometime between world war I and World
War II.  I think it was sometime around December 7, personally.

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

Declan:

>[Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
>reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]

Best way to mobilize a society: give them a Devil to hate. It's much easier
to get people to hate than to love. Blame the Press, the Permissive Society,
the Liberals, the Educational System. Of course, once you get rid of the
Devil, it's usually a good idea to have the slave's collars on everyone
BEFORE they realize the problem's still around.

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
>From: Jodi Hoffman 
>To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....

[sneck]

>Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
>Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the freezing
>drizzle.  I really thought we could make a difference, standing there
>with our banner and signs, one of which read, "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
>ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT."  Stupid me.  As the saying
>goes...we've come a long way, baby.

You need a song to cheer you up. Try this one:

"There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working-class ties and his radical plans,
He refuses to bend, he refuses to fall,
And he's always at home with his back to the wall.
He's proud of the scars and the battles he's lost
And he struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross,
And he likes to be known as the angry young man."

                    --Billy Joel, "Angry Young Man"

[sneck]

>So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
>happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
>to blur the lines of reality.

You clearly need a better country to live in. I suggest China; they have a
long history of keeping impure materials out of the hands of the easily
influenced sheeple. If you have trouble there, perhaps Singapore, Iraq,
Syria, or Lebanon would be more to your liking. If you're interested in a
proven weight-loss program, maybe North Korea is your best bet. 

[sneck]

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

Done already, by the gub'mint. Kids can't read or write at all nowadays,
despite the high level of per-pupil spending.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA

Done already, by the FCC and the religious right.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE

Done already, by the actions of mudsucker politicians who seek re-election
at any cost, even the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. "I think
I'll vote Demopublican this year, or maybe Republicrat. I have such a
hard time telling their extremist positions apart."

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING

I could claim this was the reason Usenet was created, but I'm not a
conspiracy buff. Of course, on C-SPAN, we can see politicians ranting
at each other, the President, and nothing at all.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR

The religious right again.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT

See if you can guess who said this and when:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
largess out of the public treasury."

Was it:

a) Alexander Tytler, 18th century;
b) Thomas Jefferson, early 1800s;
c) Karl Marx, late 1800s;
d) V. I. Lenin, 1915

Here's a hint: Pick the Scottish historian who lived in the 1700s. So the
concept of a "bankrupt democracy" has been around for a while.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES

Create a climate of fear. Spread uncertainty and doubt among the populace.
Wave the battle flags of pedophilia and terrorism proudly from the ramparts,
so that people gladly give up their liberties to be saved from the Horsemen
of the Apocalypse.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP

If someone were to hang around your child's schoolyard with a full-auto
AK-47, would you scream "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD ON THE ALTAR OF THE
SECOND AMENDMENT"?

>RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES

Hey, that's one rule!

>THE REALITY:
>Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
>national product.

Defense of any kind is wasteful by nature. Even white corpuscles don't do
jack when there's no infection to fight.

>We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
>our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
>(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
>Congress, and
>(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
>it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
>the new and streamlined armed services.

Say what? The last I heard, military recruiting was up because it was a way
to get training in technical areas that might otherwise be impossible for
recruits to learn. (Of course, some people still have to carry rifles...)

>FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.

Land of the Freeh, and the home of the knave. Thanks for making it just a
little worse by your actions.

From chris at cyphercom.com  Mon Nov  3 17:38:55 1997
From: chris at cyphercom.com (Chris Wedgwood)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:38:55 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711040124.OAA22207@cyphercom.com>

Steve Schear  writes:

[...]

    In the second part, Eric predicted that because of the Net's economics
    and anonymous mailing and publication potential copyrights were on their
    way out.  He acknowledged that some workable method of artist
    compensation was still needed and proposed the movie industry as a
    possible model.  In this scenario a multi-level money collection and
    product distribution scheme would be supported by artist reputation and
    completion bonds.

This is just an observation, I have no idea how true this is and if it is to
what extent, but...

I have several friends who work in the `movie business' and all of these
people claim that the "multi-level money collection" system is in fact a
very poor system.

There is considerable fraud and abuse at all levels (from cinema to
production) which means that the end result is that the artists are no paid
all they are `owed' and that the consumer pays a premium for what they
receive.

Without going into details, I can think of many ways that abuse could indeed
occur and wouldn't necessarily encourage this type of model for 'net
commerce.

Perhaps a similar situation exists with books?

-Chris

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 17:53:59 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:53:59 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
Message-ID: <199711040136.CAA09703@basement.replay.com>

TruthMonger wrote:
>   Thanks for replying to my email. It's the first one I ever got.
> Everyone else just ignores me. Go figure...

Theory #1
TruthMonger's true identity is the ventriloquist dummy from 'Soap'.

Theory #2
Those strange sounds you hear when lying quietly in bed at night?
They are the sound of people slapping their foreheads when they
realize they are arguing with a dummy. (;>}

A. Dummy II

From steve at lvdi.net  Mon Nov  3 18:08:38 1997
From: steve at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:08:38 +0800
Subject: NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 5:17 PM +0000 11/3/1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>       NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict
>
>                    by J. Orlin Grabbe
[snip]
>	Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for
>Buehler's release in January 1993, then promptly fired
>him once they had reassured themselves that he hadn't
>revealed anything important under interrogation, and
>because Buehler had begun to ask some embarrassing
>questions. Then reports appeared on Swiss television,
>Swiss Radio International, all the major Swiss papers, and
>in German magazines like Der Spiegel.  Had Crypto AG's
>equipment been spiked by Western intelligence services?
>the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4].
>
[snip]
>
>	Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG
>often. A memorandum of  a secret workshop at Crypto
>AG in August 1975, where a new prototype of an
>encryption device was demonstrated, mentions the
>participation of Nora L. Mackebee, an NSA
>cryptographer. Motorola engineer Bob Newman says that
>Mackebee was introduced to him as a "consultant".
>Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG in the seventies in
>developing a new generation of electronic encryption
>machines.   The Americans "knew Zug very well and gave
>travel tips to the Motorola people for the visit at Crypto
>AG," Newman told Der Spiegel.
>
>	Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto
>AG enciphering process, developed in cooperation with
>the NSA and the German company Siemans, involved
>secretly embedding the decryption key in the cipher text.
>Those who knew where to look could monitor the
>encrypted communication, then extract the decryption key
>that was also part of the transmission, and recover the
>plain text message.  Decryption of a message by a
>knowledgeable third party was not any more difficult that
>it was for the intended receiver.  (More than one method
>was used.  Sometimes the algorithm was simply deficient,
>with built-in exploitable weaknesses.)

As I recall, this topic came up during a Cylink management meeting I
attended in late '92.  My recollection was that Cylink was asked by the
NSA/CIA to 'alter' some of its crypto units, which supposedly were being
sought by a Columbian cartele.  The party line was that we refused.  I
didn't follow up since I wasn't the product manager of that series.

--Steve

From jlhoffm at ibm.net  Mon Nov  3 18:15:04 1997
From: jlhoffm at ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:15:04 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <199711040117.CAA07010@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>

Anonymous wrote:
Jodi Hoffman propagandized:
> >RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT

> See if you can guess who said this and when:
> 
> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
> largess out of the public treasury."
> 
> Was it:
> 
> a) Alexander Tytler, 18th century;
> b) Thomas Jefferson, early 1800s;
> c) Karl Marx, late 1800s;
> d) V. I. Lenin, 1915
> 
> Here's a hint: Pick the Scottish historian who lived in the 1700s. So the
> concept of a "bankrupt democracy" has been around for a while.

Can I get another hint?

-Jodi

From steve at lvdi.net  Mon Nov  3 18:29:07 1997
From: steve at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:29:07 +0800
Subject: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
In-Reply-To: <199711031235.NAA08077@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:35 PM +0100 11/3/1997, Anonymous wrote:
>Gary Burnore had a mongo page at http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html.
>So did Paul Pomes, Belinda Bryan, and the rest of the Databasix gang.
>Too bad it's down for now, but it'll be back.

This looks like a job for Eternity Man!

--Steve

From berezina at qed.net  Mon Nov  3 18:29:42 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:29:42 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <199711040117.CAA07010@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <345e8076.9040556@mail.qed.net>

>Alexander Tyler wrote:
>> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
>> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
>> largess out of the public treasury."

This assumes there is a "majority of voters". Read James Madison, & kiss a
multiculturalist today.

Now can we get back to denouncing Jewish Nazis?

Paul

http://www,nihidyll.com/attributions.html

From lizard at dnai.com  Mon Nov  3 18:42:33 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:42:33 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103181416.03321944@dnai.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 02:04 AM 11/4/97 GMT, Paul Spirito wrote:
>>Alexander Tyler wrote:
>>> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It 
can only
>>> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote 
themselves
>>> largess out of the public treasury."
>
>This assumes there is a "majority of voters". Read James Madison, & 
kiss a
>multiculturalist today.
>
But what we actually have is countless pluralities voting to rob each 
other. The game would work, except for entropy, in the form of 
transaction costs. With each theft from one group to the other and 
back again, some money is lost -- so the tension between groups 
increases as each demands a larger share of a smaller pie.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF6E9zKf8mIpTvjWEQJqVgCdG36Rp9e5JpDeVNDhvR0PVa3pG/QAoIqH
wcgfeDhIpl8kP4Lz0qkA0W6v
=lktW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From berezina at qed.net  Mon Nov  3 18:51:33 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:51:33 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <346086e2.10685640@mail.qed.net>

Lizard wrote:

>But what we actually have is countless pluralities voting to rob each 
>other. The game would work, except for entropy, in the form of 
>transaction costs. With each theft from one group to the other and 
>back again, some money is lost -- so the tension between groups 
>increases as each demands a larger share of a smaller pie.

No -- you've got it *almost* right -- the negotiating pluralities, entropy
(as metaphor!), & all... but the pie is growing (at between 2% & 3% per
annum). So nearly everyone's content -- enough not to shoot each other,
anyway.

Paul

Her name was Julie; she wore Batman sneakers,
And she laughed when she sang,
"Money can't buy me love!"
North of Petaluma where the 1 meets the 101 --
Oh man, we took a lot of drugs...

From millerd at vhoorl.rli-net.net  Mon Nov  3 19:11:53 1997
From: millerd at vhoorl.rli-net.net (Gabriel Millerd)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:11:53 +0800
Subject: jargon generator
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103181416.03321944@dnai.com>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Does anyone have a jargon generator?

- ---
Gabriel Millerd        |   I appreciate the fact that this draft was done in
RLI Internet Services  |     haste, but some of the sentences that you are
System Admin Attribu   |    sending out in the world to do your work for you
http://www.rli-net.net |     are loitering in taverns or asleep beside the
                       |   highway.  -- Dr. Dwight Van de Vate, Professor of
                       |    Philosophy, University of Tennessee at Knoxville

PGP Finger Print
DSS: 1024 0xE760079B = B6D4 DB5B 4990 C79F 00E7  BF4A 1E15 B47A E760 079B
D/H: 4096 0xD53C231B = BC6F C82E FD5C BE0A AF33  607C 8406 4A79 D53C 231B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF6OGB4VtHrnYAebEQIGnQCfUTKDWQI/MZ+ve2uhAoaWoyw4aF0An3U3
E/8+BUMjSgHsy0g1d8M+vTOv
=cn2s
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From rwright at adnetsol.com  Mon Nov  3 19:11:54 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:11:54 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>

From:

http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html

You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
sex-education programs. 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://ross.adnetsol.com
Voice: (408) 259-2795

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 19:41:18 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:41:18 +0800
Subject: [ON TOPIC] Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711040323.EAA20527@basement.replay.com>

Paul Spirito wrote:
> >Alexander Tyler wrote:
> >> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
> >> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
> >> largess out of the public treasury."

> This assumes there is a "majority of voters". Read James Madison, & kiss a
> multiculturalist today.

> Now can we get back to denouncing Jewish Nazis?

Sorry, that's off-topic.
You _can_, however, discuss 'Remailer Hating Nazis'...

From tm at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 19:41:23 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:41:23 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <345E93C8.3B51@dev.null>

Paul Spirito wrote:
> Lizard wrote:
> >But what we actually have is countless pluralities voting to rob each
> >other. The game would work, except for entropy, in the form of
> >transaction costs. With each theft from one group to the other and
> >back again, some money is lost -- so the tension between groups
> >increases as each demands a larger share of a smaller pie.

> No -- you've got it *almost* right -- the negotiating pluralities, entropy
> (as metaphor!), & all... but the pie is growing (at between 2% & 3% per
> annum). So nearly everyone's content -- enough not to shoot each other,
> anyway.

Close, but no cigar...
Actually, life is a pyramid scheme, people exist to provide fodder for
MLM marketing ventures, and I have 'dibs' on the last living tree.

TruthMonger

From steve at lvdi.net  Mon Nov  3 20:14:46 1997
From: steve at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:14:46 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 1:25 PM -0500 11/3/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
>me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
>nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
>brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
>you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
>society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
>them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
>taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
>to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
>would say.

Daughter and two grandchildren.

>Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
>convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
>exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
>an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
>five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
>Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

Which studies?  By whom?  Have they been independently verified and are
they accepted within the appropriate medical practice?

In any case, the First Amendment stumbling block you mention is all that
stands between enlightenment and darkness.  Personally, I think the SC is
way out of line determining who's moral values are selected in order to
define any aspect of pornography.  The 'Crowded Theater Test' should be
used for all First Amendment decisions: does excercise of this speech
(e.g., yelling, "Fire") directly endanger a particular individual or
explicitly identified individuals, not some faceless group like our youth.
Sexually explicit material should no more be restricted than other
non-sexual expressions (e.g., media violence or information on the
manufacture and use of explosives.)  Since both are protected and widely
available, so should porn of all types, no limits.

--Steve

From jc at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 20:21:57 1997
From: jc at dev.null (Jesus Christ)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:21:57 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <345E9DDB.1D94@dev.null>

Jodi "I'm not *really* a Jew, but I play one on the InterNet" Hoffman 
wrote: 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> 

> Monger:
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
>
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp

Jodi,
  As you already know, I have been on extended leave from the world
for some time, having gone to visit my Father, to prepare for taking
over the family business.
  I've been catching up on my reading, in preparation for my return
in the near future, and I came across a book, "The Jesus Principle,"
which claimed that the Christian Coalition and the self-proclaimed
Moral Majority were making plans to launch a secret assault on the
electorate, pushing their hidden agendas while covering up the true
source of their Christian propaganda.
  Naturally, I laughed this off as ridiculous, but I seem to be
encountering more and more evidence of this indeed being the case.

  I am particularly perturbed by those who are doing a very, very
bad job of disguising their true intentions, goals, their hidden 
connections and secret agendas.
  In an increasingly InterNet savy world, no one who is paying
attention is going to miss the fact that your webspace is on
The Christian Interactive Network, which goes to great lengths
to make certain that those who visit their web site are made
aware that the CIN "is a 501 C (3) Nonprofit Ministry", and that
"All donations are tax exempt," so that contribitors can shift
the tax burden to non-Christians while using their own tax-exempt
money to support Christian political agendas under the guise of
religion.

  If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
  {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
   Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}

Love,
 ~JC~
"Yes I _do_ *'love'* the little children." 

From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Nov  3 20:26:04 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:26:04 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0: Keyservers
Message-ID: <19971104042001.4745.qmail@nym.alias.net>

Out of curiosity, what protection is there for PGP 5.x users submitting keys
to the keyservers? Would it not be trivial for somebody to see what dialup
SLIP link a key is coming from and tie that key to the person submitting it?

That isn't a problem for personal keys, but it is a big problem for
psuedonyms. Is there some kind of mechanism in place for submitting such
keys via anonymous remailers? 

This might already have been covered by other Cypherpunks or the PGP folks.

ParanoiaMonger

From snow at smoke.suba.com  Mon Nov  3 20:41:08 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:41:08 +0800
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710301318.HAA17701@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711040529.XAA03597@smoke.suba.com>

> People kill for religion, politics, insanity, and fun.

	Nope. Economics, survival, revenge, and insanity. 

From snow at smoke.suba.com  Mon Nov  3 20:45:07 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:45:07 +0800
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711040533.XAA03610@smoke.suba.com>

>  We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the
>  life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in
>  the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a
>  sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified?

	When you can figure out a way to fix the problem without 
stepping on freedoms. Then legislation is justified. 

	Part of the problem is that people _assume_ that legislation fixes
problems. It doesn't. Laws just give society permission to punish the 
offender. In that case we have plenty of laws, it would be rare that we 
would need another.  

From snow at smoke.suba.com  Mon Nov  3 20:49:36 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:49:36 +0800
Subject: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711040544.XAA03652@smoke.suba.com>

> >Tim May wrote:
> Well, now that wouldn't be very smart of me, would it, to tell the world
> where my defensive measures are? (I'm willing to let would-be ninjas know

	Security thru Obscurity Mr. May? Tsk. Tsk.

> >to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
> >happen during these night raids and robberies.
> >
> >Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?

	Get used to running around naked. Your testes are the least of your
concern at that point, and unless you are well outside the normal range, they
shouldn't cause much of a problem (side question...from a evolutionary 
standpoint, given a lack of clothing would "over-endowment" tend to be a 
non-survival trait, or do we not want to go there?).

> The usual advice is to secure one's bedroom for immediate invasion. (My
> bedroom is on the second floor, too.) This helps with burglars as well as
> with ninjas. For example, lock the bedroom door. This will slow down
> attackers, who first have to gain access to the main house, then have to
> get in the bedroom. The noise from the first step should provide valuable

	Ladders. I'd bet that any trained "ninja" could get a ladder up 
against the side of a house quietly enough to prevent those inside from waking
and be in thru the window before you could get the gun out from under the 
pillow. 

> seconds of awakening, grabbing a gun, etc. I don't think a locked bedroom
> door will stop an entry team from getting inside in a matter of seconds,
> but every second helps.

	Unless you are using exterior doors, I wouldn't count on more than
1/2 second. 

> (Experts also advise that homeowners facing such assaults "stay put,"
> unless, of course, they have to defend other family members in other rooms.)

	How many people have been thru enough of these to be considered 
experts? Seriously? When the law breaks in, you don't have _time_ to leave. 
Those people train to move fast. 

From hgp at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 21:11:29 1997
From: hgp at dev.null (Human Gus-Peter)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:11:29 +0800
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711040533.XAA03610@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <345EAB8F.927@dev.null>

My uncle wrote, anonymously:
>   I don't own any guns, so I guess when the Feds kick my door in,
> I'll just point at the dog, and hope they go for my clever ruse.
>   Hell, I'm even willing to testify...

"I blamed it on the dog, and all I got was this T-shirt and a spanking!"

Human Gus-Peter

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 21:11:29 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:11:29 +0800
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711040454.FAA00831@basement.replay.com>

snow wrote:
>         Part of the problem is that people _assume_ that legislation fixes
> problems. It doesn't. Laws just give society permission to punish the
> offender. 

Prosecutor: "You should find this nanny guilty of murder because
             young people like to party."
Jury: "Duuhhh...OK!"

  What I find ironically hilarious, offensive and sad, is that there
are still so many new laws being passed, in spite of the fact that
they are no longer really needed.
  Courtrooms now pretty much just serve as an arena for engaging in
the age-old sport of public stoning. Whoever does the best job of
finger pointing, while working the crowd into a frenzy, wins.

  Tim McVeigh was Dead Meat (TM) the minute the judge ruled that
fingers in the courtroom could only be pointed at Terrible Timmy.
  I guess I'm an old fart...I remember when $15 million could buy
you a decent attorney.

  I don't own any guns, so I guess when the Feds kick my door in,
I'll just point at the dog, and hope they go for my clever ruse.
  Hell, I'm even willing to testify...

Not-Me!

From wendigo at ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org  Mon Nov  3 21:48:44 1997
From: wendigo at ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org (Mark Rogaski)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:48:44 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711031755.SAA11526@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711040540.AAA03771@deathstar.jabberwock.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Anonymous wrote:

: 
: You mean Microsoft.  It's foolish to reject encryption software because
: it runs on the OS used by 90% of its customers.

If the software is only available for Windoze, I think it's safe to say
that 100% of it's users use Windoze.  Nonetheless, open standards are 
a very good thing indeed.  This message having reached you is proof of it.

: > No source no security.
: 
: You don't trust Schneier?  You've seen the limitations of source code
: release.  Experts like Schneier and his team designing the crypto is
: worth more than a bunch of know nothings scratching their heads and
: wondering where to begin with 1000+ pages of source code.

If the source were available, there would be no need to trust Schneier.
I trust his expertise, but have no basis (or inclination) to make guesses
about his character.  No matter how many people refer to Applied Crypto as
"a Bible", it's not the kind of book that encourages blind faith.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo at pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

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From Abstruse at technologist.com  Mon Nov  3 21:53:47 1997
From: Abstruse at technologist.com (Abstruse)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:53:47 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <345EB20E.6A41@technologist.com>

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).

From test.test.com at mail.txcc.net  Tue Nov  4 13:54:14 1997
From: test.test.com at mail.txcc.net (test.test.com at mail.txcc.net)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:54:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE
Message-ID: <199711042233.QAA23769@mail.txcc.net>

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From snow at smoke.suba.com  Mon Nov  3 21:58:24 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:58:24 +0800
Subject: To TruthMonger
Message-ID: <199711040544.XAA03985@smoke.suba.com>

Forwarded message:
> snow wrote:
> >         You must live in such a nice world, where the sky is always blue,
> > the grass always green, and the police eager and willing to serve a happy
> > populace.
> >         Can I come live in your world?
> snow
>   take two of the green ones, three of the yellow ones, and four of the
> red ones

	But But But all I have are little pale blue ones, and big honkin 
white ones. 

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 22:01:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:01:05 +0800
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711040552.GAA07032@basement.replay.com>

snow wrote:
> 
> > People kill for religion, politics, insanity, and fun.
> 
>         Nope. Economics, survival, revenge, and insanity.

	Nope. Voices inside my head.

From mbp at pharos.com.au  Mon Nov  3 22:01:16 1997
From: mbp at pharos.com.au (Martin Pool)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:01:16 +0800
Subject: Request for expert opinion and Feedback
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> >c) Is there any benefit to implementing the random number generation
> >   system in the Kernel?
> 
> Yes.  In the kernel, you have access to many more hard-to-guess physical
> inputs than an application level program

Have a look at the implementation of the entropy device in Linux and
some other open systems.  Introductory comments are quoted below.
(Excuse the length, as the bishop said.)

Isn't the idea of an 'entropy device' so trippy?

--
Martin Pool

/*
 * random.c -- A strong random number generator
 *
 * Version 1.00, last modified 26-May-96
 * 
 * Copyright Theodore Ts'o, 1994, 1995, 1996.  All rights reserved.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
 * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
 * are met:
 * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
 *    notice, and the entire permission notice in its entirety,
 *    including the disclaimer of warranties.
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
 *    documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
 * 3. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote
 *    products derived from this software without specific prior
 *    written permission.
 * 
 * ALTERNATIVELY, this product may be distributed under the terms of
 * the GNU Public License, in which case the provisions of the GPL are
 * required INSTEAD OF the above restrictions.  (This clause is
 * necessary due to a potential bad interaction between the GPL and
 * the restrictions contained in a BSD-style copyright.)
 * 
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
 * WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES
 * OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE
 * DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT,
 * INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES
 * (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR
 * SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
 * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT,
 * STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)
 * ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED
 * OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
 */

/*
 * (now, with legal B.S. out of the way.....) 
 * 
 * This routine gathers environmental noise from device drivers, etc.,
 * and returns good random numbers, suitable for cryptographic use.
 * Besides the obvious cryptographic uses, these numbers are also good
 * for seeding TCP sequence numbers, and other places where it is
 * desirable to have numbers which are not only random, but hard to
 * predict by an attacker.
 *
 * Theory of operation
 * ===================
 * 
 * Computers are very predictable devices.  Hence it is extremely hard
 * to produce truly random numbers on a computer --- as opposed to
 * pseudo-random numbers, which can easily generated by using a
 * algorithm.  Unfortunately, it is very easy for attackers to guess
 * the sequence of pseudo-random number generators, and for some
 * applications this is not acceptable.  So instead, we must try to
 * gather "environmental noise" from the computer's environment, which
 * must be hard for outside attackers to observe, and use that to
 * generate random numbers.  In a Unix environment, this is best done
 * from inside the kernel.
 * 
 * Sources of randomness from the environment include inter-keyboard
 * timings, inter-interrupt timings from some interrupts, and other
 * events which are both (a) non-deterministic and (b) hard for an
 * outside observer to measure.  Randomness from these sources are
 * added to an "entropy pool", which is mixed using a CRC-like function.
 * This is not cryptographically strong, but it is adequate assuming
 * the randomness is not chosen maliciously, and it is fast enough that
 * the overhead of doing it on every interrupt is very reasonable.
 * As random bytes are mixed into the entropy pool, the routines keep
 * an *estimate* of how many bits of randomness have been stored into
 * the random number generator's internal state.
 * 
 * When random bytes are desired, they are obtained by taking the MD5
 * hash of the contents of the "entropy pool".  The MD5 hash avoids
 * exposing the internal state of the entropy pool.  It is believed to
 * be computationally infeasible to derive any useful information
 * about the input of MD5 from its output.  Even if it is possible to
 * analyze MD5 in some clever way, as long as the amount of data
 * returned from the generator is less than the inherent entropy in
 * the pool, the output data is totally unpredictable.  For this
 * reason, the routine decreases its internal estimate of how many
 * bits of "true randomness" are contained in the entropy pool as it
 * outputs random numbers.
 * 
 * If this estimate goes to zero, the routine can still generate
 * random numbers; however, an attacker may (at least in theory) be
 * able to infer the future output of the generator from prior
 * outputs.  This requires successful cryptanalysis of MD5, which is
 * not believed to be feasible, but there is a remote possibility.
 * Nonetheless, these numbers should be useful for the vast majority
 * of purposes.
 * 
 * Exported interfaces ---- output
 * ===============================
 * 
 * There are three exported interfaces; the first is one designed to
 * be used from within the kernel:
 *
 * 	void get_random_bytes(void *buf, int nbytes);
 *
 * This interface will return the requested number of random bytes,
 * and place it in the requested buffer.
 * 
 * The two other interfaces are two character devices /dev/random and
 * /dev/urandom.  /dev/random is suitable for use when very high
 * quality randomness is desired (for example, for key generation or
 * one-time pads), as it will only return a maximum of the number of
 * bits of randomness (as estimated by the random number generator)
 * contained in the entropy pool.
 * 
 * The /dev/urandom device does not have this limit, and will return
 * as many bytes as are requested.  As more and more random bytes are
 * requested without giving time for the entropy pool to recharge,
 * this will result in random numbers that are merely cryptographically
 * strong.  For many applications, however, this is acceptable.
 *
 * Exported interfaces ---- input
 * ==============================
 * 
 * The current exported interfaces for gathering environmental noise
 * from the devices are:
 * 
 * 	void add_keyboard_randomness(unsigned char scancode);
 * 	void add_mouse_randomness(__u32 mouse_data);
 * 	void add_interrupt_randomness(int irq);
 * 	void add_blkdev_randomness(int irq);
 * 
 * add_keyboard_randomness() uses the inter-keypress timing, as well as the
 * scancode as random inputs into the "entropy pool".
 * 
 * add_mouse_randomness() uses the mouse interrupt timing, as well as
 * the reported position of the mouse from the hardware.
 *
 * add_interrupt_randomness() uses the inter-interrupt timing as random
 * inputs to the entropy pool.  Note that not all interrupts are good
 * sources of randomness!  For example, the timer interrupts is not a
 * good choice, because the periodicity of the interrupts is to
 * regular, and hence predictable to an attacker.  Disk interrupts are
 * a better measure, since the timing of the disk interrupts are more
 * unpredictable.
 * 
 * add_blkdev_randomness() times the finishing time of block requests.
 * 
 * All of these routines try to estimate how many bits of randomness a
 * particular randomness source.  They do this by keeping track of the
 * first and second order deltas of the event timings.
 *
 * Ensuring unpredictability at system startup
 * ============================================
 * 
 * When any operating system starts up, it will go through a sequence
 * of actions that are fairly predictable by an adversary, especially
 * if the start-up does not involve interaction with a human operator.
 * This reduces the actual number of bits of unpredictability in the
 * entropy pool below the value in entropy_count.  In order to
 * counteract this effect, it helps to carry information in the
 * entropy pool across shut-downs and start-ups.  To do this, put the
 * following lines an appropriate script which is run during the boot
 * sequence: 
 *
 *	echo "Initializing random number generator..."
 *	# Carry a random seed from start-up to start-up
 *	# Load and then save 512 bytes, which is the size of the entropy pool
 * 	if [ -f /etc/random-seed ]; then
 *		cat /etc/random-seed >/dev/urandom
 * 	fi
 *	dd if=/dev/urandom of=/etc/random-seed count=1
 *
 * and the following lines in an appropriate script which is run as
 * the system is shutdown:
 * 
 *	# Carry a random seed from shut-down to start-up
 *	# Save 512 bytes, which is the size of the entropy pool
 *	echo "Saving random seed..."
 *	dd if=/dev/urandom of=/etc/random-seed count=1
 * 
 * For example, on many Linux systems, the appropriate scripts are
 * usually /etc/rc.d/rc.local and /etc/rc.d/rc.0, respectively.
 * 
 * Effectively, these commands cause the contents of the entropy pool
 * to be saved at shut-down time and reloaded into the entropy pool at
 * start-up.  (The 'dd' in the addition to the bootup script is to
 * make sure that /etc/random-seed is different for every start-up,
 * even if the system crashes without executing rc.0.)  Even with
 * complete knowledge of the start-up activities, predicting the state
 * of the entropy pool requires knowledge of the previous history of
 * the system.
 *
 * Configuring the /dev/random driver under Linux
 * ==============================================
 *
 * The /dev/random driver under Linux uses minor numbers 8 and 9 of
 * the /dev/mem major number (#1).  So if your system does not have
 * /dev/random and /dev/urandom created already, they can be created
 * by using the commands:
 *
 * 	mknod /dev/random c 1 8
 * 	mknod /dev/urandom c 1 9
 * 
 * Acknowledgements:
 * =================
 *
 * Ideas for constructing this random number generator were derived
 * from the Pretty Good Privacy's random number generator, and from
 * private discussions with Phil Karn.  Colin Plumb provided a faster
 * random number generator, which speed up the mixing function of the
 * entropy pool, taken from PGP 3.0 (under development).  It has since
 * been modified by myself to provide better mixing in the case where
 * the input values to add_entropy_word() are mostly small numbers.
 * Dale Worley has also contributed many useful ideas and suggestions
 * to improve this driver.
 * 
 * Any flaws in the design are solely my responsibility, and should
 * not be attributed to the Phil, Colin, or any of authors of PGP.
 * 
 * The code for MD5 transform was taken from Colin Plumb's
 * implementation, which has been placed in the public domain.  The
 * MD5 cryptographic checksum was devised by Ronald Rivest, and is
 * documented in RFC 1321, "The MD5 Message Digest Algorithm".
 * 
 * Further background information on this topic may be obtained from
 * RFC 1750, "Randomness Recommendations for Security", by Donald
 * Eastlake, Steve Crocker, and Jeff Schiller.
 */

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 22:16:08 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:16:08 +0800
Subject: 
Message-ID: <199711040559.GAA07579@basement.replay.com>

>On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>> If I were someone who wanted to make the internet look like a place 
>> that needed STRONG governmental controls I would put the words 
>> terrorists,criminals,pornographers,drug dealers/addicts,
>
>Fnord.
>

I have been wondering about all the media attention on "aids assasins"
recently. 

"With a national list of people infected with the HIV virus, people could
be more informed about the people they choose to have sex with"

	I'm sure that this national list will never be used by corporations when
hiring people. It will also never be used to discredit people either, who
would say "why are you listening to him, he is a faggot" or "he hangs out
with fags, you know how all fags are."

From aleph at cco.caltech.edu  Mon Nov  3 22:18:51 1997
From: aleph at cco.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:18:51 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103220718.00c60100@pop-server.caltech.edu>

I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
children the truth instead of made up fantasies.  Unreasonable fear is very
harmful to anyone's mental health, especially children.
At 06:59 PM 11/3/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>From:
>
>http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
>
>You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
>normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
>encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
>were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
>harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
>sex-education programs. 
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Ross Wright
>King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
>http://ross.adnetsol.com
>Voice: (408) 259-2795
>
>

                             -Colin

From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Nov  3 22:23:48 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:23:48 +0800
Subject: Funding Cypherpunks Action Projects
Message-ID: 

I have worked out a plan whereby we can auction off the role of
Cypherpunks Chief Spokesperson in order to fund CAP's.
The idea for a Spokesperson pyramid scheme came to me after
realizing that the list has not only a variety of individuals
competing as the chief list 'Fed baiters', but also quite a
number of people who enjoy 'Christian baiting', as well:

TruthMonger, playing with his private parts, wrote:
>  Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
> Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
> her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
> at others?
> Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
> If it saves the life of just one child...

Eric Cordian spit out:
> "Puritanism" might be defined as the fear that someone, somewhere, is
> having a porn-induced orgasm.  Stable people tend to worry about their
> own orgasms, and not their neighbors.  Perhaps if you had a few
> orgasms yourself, you might lose interest in the orgasms of others.
> [Nonsense Deleted]
> Please bite my enormous throbbing love sausage with an ice cube in your
> mouth. 

Jesus Christ wrote:
> If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
> that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
>  {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
>   Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}

There is no telling how much money we could raise by appealing to
the macho male egos on the list who lock horns in CypherPissing 
cock-size wars, if we were to take bids on the honor of being the
Cypherpunks' authorized 'Fed-baiter' or 'Christian-pisser', etc.

Given the wide variety of individuals, groups, organizations, 
corporations, government agencies, etc., which have been the
target of vicious attacks on this list, there is no end of the
number of CypherPisser Ambassadorships we could invent to fill
the Cypherpunks Action Projects coffers.

Cypherpunks Chief MLM Spokesman

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Nov  3 22:38:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:38:46 +0800
Subject: www.cypherpunks.to
Message-ID: <199711040625.HAA10218@basement.replay.com>

Lucky Green wrote:
> > What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.
> 
> The server works fine and I can reach it from the US.

I tried www.cypherpunks.to and couldn't get connected.
I dropped the www and got sent to the www site.

And the root password there is...

From frantz at netcom.com  Mon Nov  3 22:52:48 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:52:48 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: 

A couple of real-world examples to go with your (good) ideas:

* Richard Stallman gives away the software, but sells the support.  This
technique has the perverse incentive for the author to make the software
require support.

* The Grateful Dead permitted taping at their concerts and did not object
to the non-commercial exchange of the tapes.  It is hard to tell whether
they made most of their money from performances or from sales of
recordings.  In general musicians can make money from live performance.
(Song writers have a different problem, more like that of poets.)

BTW - Marc Steigler tells me he has had a story accepted at Analog (but not
yet published) called something like, "The future of (eat more cheetos)
Copyright."

Cheers - Bill

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

From hgp at dev.null  Mon Nov  3 22:55:12 1997
From: hgp at dev.null (Human Gus-Peter)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:55:12 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103220718.00c60100@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <345EC47E.462C@dev.null>

Colin A. Reed wrote:
> 
> I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
> promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
> monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
> now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
> Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
> children the truth instead of made up fantasies.

At the risk of sounding like a Bible-basher, I have to admit that
I used to regard an inordinate number of Christians as ignorant,
until I found out that many of them are quite simply being very
deceptive about their nonsensical, party-platform claims.
To tell the truth, I respected them more when I thought they
were just ignorant.

Most of the prosetylizing that I have been subjected to consists of
vague, unsubtantiated claims, followed by prophetic pronouncements
of 'the way things are', backed up by quoting the same prophetic
pronouncements to 'prove' this or that point.

Let me state that I think there are a great many 'good' Christians
in the world. i.e. - the ones that leave me the fuck alone!

From frantz at netcom.com  Mon Nov  3 22:55:17 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:55:17 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
In-Reply-To: <199711021554.KAA07184@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: 

At 8:14 AM -0800 11/2/97, Tim May wrote:
>One of the more interesting images I ever saw was a photo in one of the gun
>mags of a friendly meeting in the U.S. between Eugene Stoner, principal
>designer of the AR-15 (the M-16 in its military version) and Mikhail
>Kalashnikov, whose name needs no further explanation.
>
>I suppose tree-hugging peaceniks would be aghast at a meeting between these
>two merchants of death. I, being an antigovernment type, was nevertheless
>impressed.

As a tree-hugging, peacenick, gun lover, I would have loved to hear the
conversation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

From aleph at cco.caltech.edu  Mon Nov  3 23:12:51 1997
From: aleph at cco.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:12:51 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103230305.00c574c0@pop-server.caltech.edu>

Oops, I meant unreasoning below.  Very different meaning.

At 10:07 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Colin A. Reed wrote:
>I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
>promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
>monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
>now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
>Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
>children the truth instead of made up fantasies.  Unreasonable fear is very
>harmful to anyone's mental health, especially children.
>At 06:59 PM 11/3/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>>From:
>>
>>http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
>>
>>You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
>>normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
>>encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
>>were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
>>harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
>>sex-education programs. 
>>
>>
>>=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>Ross Wright
>>King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
>>http://ross.adnetsol.com
>>Voice: (408) 259-2795
>>
>>
>
>
>                             -Colin
>
>

                             -Colin

From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Nov  3 23:18:13 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:18:13 +0800
Subject: www.cypherpunks.to
In-Reply-To: <199711040625.HAA10218@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> Lucky Green wrote:
> > > What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.
> > 
> > The server works fine and I can reach it from the US.
> 
> I tried www.cypherpunks.to and couldn't get connected.
> I dropped the www and got sent to the www site.

Seems there is an intermittent DNS problem. The machines alter ego,
http://pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to/ seems unaffected.

-- Lucky Green  PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

From R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl  Tue Nov  4 15:19:34 1997
From: R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl (Ray Hirschfeld)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:19:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Final Call for Papers
Message-ID: 

		      Financial Cryptography '98
		   Second International Conference
		 February 23-26, 1998, Anguilla, BWI
			FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS

General Information:

Financial Cryptography '98 (FC98) is a conference on the security of
digital financial transactions.  Meetings alternate between the island
of Anguilla in the British West Indies and other locations.  This
second meeting will be held in Anguilla on February 23-26, 1998.  FC98
aims to bring together persons involved in both the financial and data
security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas.

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including

    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility       
    Authentication                          Home Banking       
    Communication Security                  Identification     
    Conditional Access                      Implementations    
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance     
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms 
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects      
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments      
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments   
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues     
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues  
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards        
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability

Instructions for Authors:

Send a cover letter and 12 copies of an extended abstract to be
received by November 17, 1997 (or postmarked by November 7, 1997 and
sent via airmail) to the Program Chair at the address given below.

The extended abstract (a short draft of the full paper, typically 10
pages in length) should start with the title, the names of the
authors, and an abstract followed by a succinct statement appropriate
for a non-specialist reader specifying the subject addressed, its
background, the main achievements, and their significance to financial
data security.  Submissions are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of
12pt type.  Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to
authors no later than January 12, 1998.

Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will
be presented at the conference.

Proceedings:

Proceedings of the conference will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.
Instructions and deadlines for submission of final papers will be sent
later to authors of accepted papers.

Rump Session:

In addition to the regular conference program, a rump session will be
held to provide an opportunity for less formal presentations.
Although the rump session will be organized during the conference
itself, any advance proposals may be sent to the Program Co-Chair at
the email address given below.  Rump session contributions will not
appear in the conference proceedings.

Stipends:

A very limited number of stipends may be available to those unable to
obtain funding to attend the conference.  Students whose papers are
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to
apply if such assistance is needed.  Requests for stipends should be
addressed to one of the General Chairs.

Registration:

Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Anguilla itself will follow in a separate general announcement.  There
are special reduced registration rates for full-time academics and
students.  Further information about registration is available online
via the URL listed below.

Workshop:

A workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software development
experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with
FC98, to be held during the week following the conference.  Further
information about the workshop is available online via the URL listed
below.  For information about workshop registration, please contact
one of the General Chairs.

Special Attraction:

On Thursday, February 26, 1998, there will be a total eclipse of the
sun.  The narrow zone of 100% totality will pass just south of
Anguilla, and there should be an excellent view of the eclipse from
the conference site.

Send Submissions to:

Rafael Hirschfeld
FC98 Program Chair
CWI
Kruislaan 413
1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
email: ray at cwi.nl
phone: +31 20 592 4169
fax: +31 20 592 4199

Send Rump Session Contributions to:

Matthew Franklin
FC98 Program Co-Chair
email: franklin at research.att.com

Program Committee:

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY, USA

General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rah at shipwright.com
Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI
   email: vince at offshore.com.ai

Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA
   email: julie at sneaker.net

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA
   email: iang at cs.berkeley.edu

Financial Cryptography '98 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

FC98 is sponsored by:
RSA Data Security Inc. 
C2NET, Inc. 
Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, Anguilla 
Offshore Information Services 
e$ 

Those interested in becoming a sponsor of FC98 or in purchasing
exhibit space, please contact the Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager.

A copy of this call for papers as well as other information about the
conference will be available at URL http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98.

From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov  3 23:34:13 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:34:13 +0800
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103190201.03169298@popd.netcruiser>

At 05:24 PM 11/3/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Minty Cuntskin (Sorry Monty, I couldn't resist ;-) wrote: 

Just FYI, "Monty Cantsin" is not a real person.  According the the Neoism
web site (See "Monty's" posts for URL), "Everybody can BE Monty Cantsin,
but nobody IS Monty Cantsin." Same goes for Smile Magazine.  Neoism
encourages its adherents to start their own Smile Magazine.  Go figure...

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov  3 23:43:22 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:43:22 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103183411.0315aeb4@popd.netcruiser>

At 08:49 PM 11/2/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

No. S/MIME uses 40 bit keys, which are trivially breakable by paralell
brute-force key search attacks.

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Nov  3 23:52:55 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:52:55 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

[It is probably a waste of time, but I'll try it anyway...]

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Let me guess, Lucky, you're using Windows, right? If I was a Windows user
> exclusively I probably wouldn't give a damn either.

Windows 95/NT, MacOS, FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, AIX, and right now I need
to deal with OS/390. 'Nuff said on the OS flame...

> PGP Inc. has taken a *multi-platform* *network-wide* system and broken it.
> They released a Windows version months ago completely severing lines of
> communication between 5.0 and 2.x users. 
> 
> Finally, after months, they get around to releasing a UNIX version so that
> everybody else can use PGP 5.x.

I probably should find it amusing to read such nonsene by people that
don't know what they are talking about, but frankly, I just find it
annoying.

PGP released their UNIX code the same day they released  their Windows
code. I know. I was there. I have 7 volume of source on my shelf to
prove it. Hurt my back lifting several boxes for re-distribution...

That it took so long before the source was available was due to the US
export laws. [The Windows and Mac source still  isn't 100% proofread].

BTW, how many pages did *you* proofread? Thought so. I
organized a 30 man tent full of proofreaders to get get stacks of
pages full of assembler proofread. By the end of the weekend, the
source was up for ftp. Your contribution to the project was...? 'Nuff
said on this topic.

 >Of course the damned thing *still* isn't
> stable,

You have/are going to contribute how many man months of highly qualified
programmer time to make PGP 5 fully stable? ... Right...I see. 

>*still* has a timebomb in it,

https://www.cypherpunks.to/pgp5hacks/ [For the braindead...]

> and *still* has the command line
> broken.

Compatibility mode is not yet implemented. Are you voluntering your
time?... Oh.... Hmm..

Anyway, I got to go and get some work done. Been nice talking with you.

-- Lucky Green  PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

From semprini at theschool.com  Tue Nov  4 00:05:39 1997
From: semprini at theschool.com (semprini at theschool.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:05:39 +0800
Subject: 
Message-ID: <199711040738.XAA26306@k2.brigadoon.com>

> 
> > Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> > convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> > exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
> let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
> porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
> facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).

Let me set some facts straight. The idea in the paragraph above from 
Jodi Hoffman is quite contrary to the ideas held by Scientologists. 
The idea in the paragraph above has to do with the ideas held by the 
secular humanists and their attempts to explain human behaviour as 
having nothing to do with a will, but as just chemical reactions. 
Make sure you know exactly what ideas are held by a particular group 
before you attempt to denounce them. As Mark Twain once said, "First 
get your facts straight; then you can distort them."

--Dylan

FWIW, I heartily agree that Jodi probably "despises porn so much she's 
seeing red", which she has every right to do. However! She's quoting 
studies that are crocks, so her entire agrument is fallacious, as 
TruthMonger so eloquently pointed out. :)

From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Tue Nov  4 00:18:06 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:18:06 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <199711032057.MAA08856@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 semprini at theschool.com wrote:

> > Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
> Wrong. Exposure to pornography does not cause "brain damage" or 
> "structural changes in the brain."

Well part of it true,  exsposure to porn will cause structural changers in
the brain,  so will exsposure to high art,  these are called memroise and
are necery for the propper functions of the brain.  Thay do not cause
brain dammige.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. 
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument

From Jim at famailcrt.com  Tue Nov  4 19:52:11 1997
From: Jim at famailcrt.com (Jim at famailcrt.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Web Site Hosting Starting at $15.00
Message-ID: <>

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From Jim at famailcrt.com  Tue Nov  4 19:52:11 1997
From: Jim at famailcrt.com (Jim at famailcrt.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Web Site Hosting Starting at $15.00
Message-ID: <>

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Message Sent 11/04/97

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From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov  4 03:52:21 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:21 +0800
Subject: Pet Bog Crypto Ban
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971104114239.00a4cbac@pop.pipeline.com>

As a strategic bank shot for banning domestic use of encryption the 
US FBI and Fish and Wildlife Service have declared the pet Bog 
Snatch Algorithm a terrorist threat:

   http://jya.com/fws110497.txt  (134K)

B. Overutilization for Commercial, Recreational, Scientific, or 
Educational Purposes

    The bog turtle is a target for pet collectors due to its rarity in 
the wild, distinctive coloration, and small size. Take (primarily 
illegal) both for the national and international commercial pet trade 
industry has occurred for many years. Collecting is a significant 
factor in the species decline and is an ongoing threat to its continued 
existence in the wild (Anon. 1991; Earley 1993; David Flemming, U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife Service, in litt. 1991; Herman 1990; Klemens in 
press; Stearns et al. 1990; Tryon 1990; Tryon and Herman 1990). During 
the last 5 to 10 years, an increasing number of bog turtles have been 
advertised for sale, and prices have increased substantially. The 
increase in price most likely reflects the increase in demand for the 
turtles; the increase in demand increases the threats to the wild 
populations (Tryon and Herman 1990).
    Atlanta Zoo personnel reported that from 1989 to early 1991, over 
1000 bog turtles were exported to Japan. These figures differ 
significantly from CITES data and represent a significant amount of 
unreported illegal trade (Anon. 1991). The World Wildlife Fund recently 
listed bog turtles as among the world's top 10 ``most wanted'' 
endangered species (Earley 1993). According to Alan Salzburg, President 
of the American Turtle and Tortoise Society, the bog turtle is 
considered the most prized turtle in the United States, and when bog 
turtle locations become publicly known, they are exploited by 
collectors within 1 year (Laura Hood, Defenders of Wildlife, in litt. 
1997).
    Due to the threats facing bog turtle populations, the Society for 
the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles adopted a resolution calling for 
the prohibition of collection from wild populations (Stearns et al. 
1990). Due to the small size of existing populations, and the low 
reproductive and recruitment potential of this species, the removal of 
even a few breeding adults can do irrevocable damage to a population 
(Tryon 1990). Collecting has been a factor in the reduction or 
extirpation of several bog turtle populations in Delaware (Anon. 1991), 
Maryland (Anon. 1991; Smith, in litt. 1994), Massachusetts (Anon. 
1991), New Jersey (Farrell and Zappalorti 1989; Zappalorti, pers. comm. 
1994; Zappalorti, in litt. 1997), New York (Breisch, in litt. 1993; 
Breisch et al., in litt. 1994; Collins 1990; Behler, in litt. 1997), 
and Pennsylvania (Ralph Pisapia, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, in 
litt. 1992; Zappalorti, in litt. 1997). Many sites in these States have 
suitable habitat, but have much-reduced bog turtle populations, 
probably due to collecting.
    Throughout the bog turtle's entire range, States regulate take 
through classification of the species as endangered (in Connecticut, 
Delaware, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, and 
Virginia) or threatened (in Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, South 
Carolina and Tennessee), yet trade continues.
    Illegal trade is difficult to detect due to the questionable origin 
of turtles being offered for sale. Bog turtles are often ``laundered'' 
through States which either do not have native populations (e.g., West 
Virginia, Florida, California), or through States which have inadequate 
protection of their own bog turtle populations (Charles Bepler, U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife Service, in litt. 1993; Breisch, in litt. 1993; 
Michael Klemens, in litt. 1990). For example, in recent years dealers 
have claimed West Virginia as the State of origin for bog turtles; 
however, there is no evidence to support the contention that the bog 
turtle occurs in that State (Dennis Herman, Project Bog Turtle 
Coordinator, in litt. 1997; Tom Thorp, North Carolina Herpetological 
Society, in litt. 1997). Hatchling and juvenile turtles marketed as 
``captive-born'' are usually offspring from gravid adult females 
illegally brought into captivity and held until they deposit eggs. The 
eggs are then hatched in captivity, and the captive-born (but not 
captive-bred) offspring are then marketed or retained (Bepler, in litt. 
1993).
    A few specific instances of illegal bog turtle collecting and trade 
are reported below:
    (1) An undercover officer purchased eight bog turtles from a person 
who had collected them near Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Also, two 
additional bog turtles were recovered from persons who had gotten them 
from friends allegedly in the New York area (Bepler, in litt. 1993);
    (2) An individual from New Jersey was arrested for bringing bog 
turtles from New Jersey to Florida and selling them as captive-born. It 
is suspected that he collected about six turtles per year over a period 
of several years (Bepler, in litt. 1993);
    (3) A reliable source in New York reported that over 2000 wild-
caught bog turtles were shipped to Japan in a 2-year period (Murdock, 
in litt. 1990);
    (4) Researchers found several turtle traps and a much-diminished 
bog turtle population at an important bog turtle site in Pennsylvania 
(Pisapia, in litt. 1992);
    (5) In 1993, a New Jersey resident purchased 47 bog turtles in 
Florida, and since 1984 had also bought 20 additional bog turtles. This 
individual supposedly has an active breeding program for bog turtles 
(Terry Tarr, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, in litt. 1993);
    (6) When confronted in a New York wetland, an individual claiming 
to be a birdwatcher revealed the contents of the cloth bag he was 
carrying--a bog turtle and spotted turtle (Paul Novak, New York Natural 
Heritage Program, in litt. 1990);
    (7) A reliable source reported seeing approximately 60 bog turtles 
at the Ohio residence of a person who frequents reptile shows. Based on 
the physical appearance of the bog turtles, they were not captive-bred 
(Scott Smith, Maryland Department of Natural Resources, in litt. 1996);
    (8) Bog turtles have been available at the major Herpetological 
Expo in Orlando, Florida for the last 2 years (Herman, in litt. 1997; 
Thorp, in litt. 1997); and
    (9) Bog turtles were observed in several Florida dealerships in 
1996, although they have not been openly advertised for sale (Herman, 
in litt. 1997).
    The general consensus among bog turtle researchers, nongame 
biologists, and law enforcement officials is that illegal collecting is 
occurring at a much greater rate than detected or reported (Anon. 1991; 
Breisch, in litt. 1993; Flemming, in litt. 1991). Bog turtles are 
already extremely low in numbers throughout much of their range, and 
any additional take could eliminate marginal populations and hamper 
survival and recovery efforts.
    Protecting existing sites for bog turtles can pose a threat when 
these specific sites are revealed and publicized. In addition to the 
threat of collection for the pet trade industry, collection of bog
turtles for exhibition at nature centers is also a threat (Anon. 1991).

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 04:08:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:08:24 +0800
Subject: Porn gave me brain damage!!
Message-ID: <199711041153.MAA10955@basement.replay.com>

	I have been reading this list for some time now but have only posted a few
messages, you might recall them, they were about the government using
perceived threats to convince the public that they 
needed legislation to protect them from harmful elements on the 
Internet. I am not posting now about any sort of government conspiracy
or mind control tactics used to convince people they need to give up rights
in order to be safe, I am posting to tell you all how very wrong I was.

	I have just come from the neurologist where I was diagnosed with dementia
pornographia, a syndrome caused by exposure to pornography. 
I have been afflicted with an obsession with pornography since I first
realized I was attracted to women. I remember looking at them and imagining
them with no clothes on. I know now that this is when the damage was begun,
and there is nothing I can do now to reverse it.
	My first taste of pornography was in junior high school. We had a sex ed
class and the textbook was full of crudely drawn genetalia. I looked at
these pictures frequently while studying, little did I know what was being
done to me, the pictures were causing chemical changes in my brain,
stimulating synapses and causing neurons to fire.
	At first I was like any normal kid, very loving and close to my family. As
I got drawn deeper and deeper into pornography I changed, 
first I started hanging around with other boys interested in female
genetalia. Then I started searching through my parents belongings and
stealing whatever I could to support my habits. Newspapers, catalogs,
books, national geographic, anything with pictures of women in it would do.
My parents didn't understand what I was going through they just 
assumed that I was going through a phase, they didn't know that my little
"phase" caused new hormones to be released into my brain changing it 
for good.
	Through most of my high school and college years I was a 
dedicated porn user. I always surrounded myself with people that thought
porn was "cool" or that it was "no big deal". I became increasingly
estranged from my family and even went so far as to move away from home 
for my freshman year in college. I was 18 now and could legally buy
dangerous pornographic material. Once I was living away from home I started
experimenting with pre-marital sex. At first I knew it was 
wrong, but all my friends were doing it so I did it to fit in. Soon I
became to desire it, even need it. If I went for a while without it I would
do just about anything to "get laid". 
	When A friend of mine introduced me to the Internet all my
prayers had been answered, all the porn I could ever need and people 
werejust giving it away. I was chipping away at my brain bit by bit, 
every site, every newsgroup, every picture, every chatroom, was drawing me
deeper into the world of porn. Then I read Jodi Hoffmam's post and I knew
that I needed help. 

	I hope that this can help people, I am to far gone to be helped
now. I hope people can learn from the mistakes I made. I hope something 
can be done to stop the rampant proliferation of porn from hurting other
innocent children, too young to know better, but having lost their
innocence and having experienced more than any child should. It is the
children that are losing in the war against pornography.

	--Bucky

From mark at unicorn.com  Tue Nov  4 04:23:54 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (mark at unicorn.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:23:54 +0800
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
Message-ID: <878645811.4088.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>

Jodi Hoffman  wrote:
>Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
>Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the freezing
>drizzle. 

I'm sure that your daughter can't forget such an obvious example of child
abuse either. Perhaps someone should inform the BATF?

>Don't
>you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
>society?

Don't tell them or they'll all want one...

>Studies have shown that
>an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
>five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.

Studies have shown that anti-porn rhetoric kills babies and causes
cancer in lab rats. Which studies? The ones I just made up... of
course your comment isn't a total lie, it's just a blatant and, frankly,
inept attempt to twist reality to support your cause. The human brain
is a neural network; any data entering into it changes its structure.

Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that:

Exposure to anti-porn rhetoric causes actual brain damage, especially in 
a child.

>So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms. That's exactly what
>happened with the Hitler youth, etc... 

I think you'll find that the Hitler Youth were too busy burning 
'pornography' to read it, though I guess burning books may have
given them orgasms. Many people seem to have the hots for it,
after all.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1: CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

[Rest deleted; I'm glad to see that the revolution is proceeding as
planned. I'll mention you at the next Illuminati Grand Council.]

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2: CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA

Ah, this is where I come in; I have, sadly, been neglecting my cypherpunk
duties lately because I've been spending too much time on film-making. You
see, I have this dream; I want to make a movie of the entire Bible, and
not the old Charlton Heston version, but totally unexpurgated, keeping
entirely to the text, including all those embarassing bits about Lot's
daughters screwing their father while he slept in order to have his
children ('No, no your honor, it wasn't me, they did it to me in my
sleep'), men who are hung like stallions, and babies having their brains 
bashed out of their skulls.

Why? Because I want to see the religious censors squirm... I do so
enjoy their anti-porn and anti-violence rants when they're pushing
one of the most violent and pornographic novels ever written.

>Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
>Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America

Excuse me? You're part of the 'Victimization of Children Council'? You
mean child victimizers have their own lobby group these days? Boy, ain't
America wonderful?

    Mark

From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov  4 05:30:16 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:30:16 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0: Keyservers
In-Reply-To: <19971104042001.4745.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199711041321.IAA25174@users.invweb.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971104042001.4745.qmail at nym.alias.net>, on 11/04/97 
   at 04:20 AM, lcs Mixmaster Remailer  said:

>Out of curiosity, what protection is there for PGP 5.x users submitting
>keys to the keyservers? Would it not be trivial for somebody to see what
>dialup SLIP link a key is coming from and tie that key to the person
>submitting it?

>That isn't a problem for personal keys, but it is a big problem for
>psuedonyms. Is there some kind of mechanism in place for submitting such
>keys via anonymous remailers? 

>This might already have been covered by other Cypherpunks or the PGP
>folks.

All the HTTP based servers also have e-mail access for submitting and
retreiving keys. Submitting a key via remailer should not be a problem.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNF8g149Co1n+aLhhAQETzwP/QmKn5T78nvDhETZBKPpP6pNs9wYafYnY
lVfkibjOctMRBFhI3bk2oCgwZZGTk3GFi1aOkFhr5aRgfuRSHjXV5LJHKrjUnNZU
0UhMVPXFKAEteIESSzD1qAveMXfbSb3r053GeRTQFF4eoFmLTPgo2zGDFQUSgx5d
cXPcdjDEZc4=
=sgYa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov  4 05:36:00 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:36:00 +0800
Subject: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711041329.IAA25247@users.invweb.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In ,
on 11/04/97 
   at 08:52 AM, Lucky Green  said:

I don't want to get into the how much time have you devoted to PGP thread,
I am currious of if and when there will be a release of the unmodified
source code for 5.0. Curently the only available code is that which has
been modified for the unix beta. Will there be a release of this code??
IMHO this should have been the first thing released before the
modifications were started.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Charset: cp850
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From jlhoffm at ibm.net  Tue Nov  4 06:16:22 1997
From: jlhoffm at ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:16:22 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <345F2B21.1F66@ibm.net>

Ross Wright wrote:
> 
> From:
> 
> http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
> 
> You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
> normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
> encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
> were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
> harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
> sex-education programs.
> Hmmm...didn't I already have that written there?  If not, it's probably in our book.
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

From kraiwut at samart.co.th  Tue Nov  4 06:42:25 1997
From: kraiwut at samart.co.th (kraiwut at samart.co.th)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:42:25 +0800
Subject: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>

Profiling/personal computer security at Ben Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv
I just had a rather unholy experience in Israel. Maybe someone with
expertise can email me a few suggestions with regards to securing a PC at
start up.

On Nov. 2nd I arrived three hours early to Ben Gurion Airport  for my flight
to Bangkok(via Amman, Jordan). While standing in line before the check-in
counters I listened to   Shin Bet representatives interrogating passengers.
When my turn came the friendly skies  turned dark. Apparently my responses
to the standardized  questions became  an unwelcome indictment. 
I believe a few things contributed to my being selected: 
1) jobless but carrying a generous roll of C notes and a stack of trav. checks
2) purchased a one-way the day before from an Arab travel agent(with credit
card, not cash)
3) declined an Israeli stamp in my passport(*red flag*)
4) numerous stamps from Arab countries; travelled overland from Sinai
5) I rented a car from an Arab agency located in East Jerusalem
These characteristics qualified me for a trip to the back room where they
opened my bag and discovered a computer. 

"Why didn't you tell me you had a computer?" the Shin Bet trainee demanded
in a somewhat agitated tone. "Because you didn't ask",  I replied. 

A few moments later someone emerged from yet another  back room and asked me
something stupid about the computer's  battery. I removed the battery as
requested. He then asked to see the computer ostensibly to send it through a
machine to determine  if it  was actually a well-disguised  bomb. That was
his  pretense as the computer disappeared for more than 45 minutes. About 5
minutes after he left with the computer someone else walked into the room
and gave me the floppy that I always leave in that drive. I assume that this
means that  they began working on the machine as soon as they left the room
with it. Later someone else from another building came to look at the
computer so I guess this means that they have a few guys who swing between
the four departure terminals checking on progress or doing whatever. 

When the guy returned my computer there was a half inch crack on the side of
my Toshiba that hadn't been there when he left with it. Perhaps they took a
hammer and chisel to my hardware.  I started it up and found that  the
Windows 95 password was compromised(no flames, please). I know that you can
by-pass the Win95 password by going to the DOS mode, then tweaking
something. However, I don't think that was done as  the network
configuration was altered and some sort of recent Win95 utility was
installed( and it wasn't mine). I say recent because I have a newer version
Win95  on my desktop so the slight differences are easily apparent to me.
The shut down option has a different("shut down and allow user to log on")
something or other than was there before.

Now the password feature is fucked and the battery management feature isn't
working either. I have PGP5.0 installed and a few other easy-to-use crypto
and stego programs but nothing was said about those. I have three documents
encrypted with PGP but I seriously doubt that they were found. They opened
four documents in WordPerfect but nothing in those documents is in the least
bit interesting. They easily could have copied the entire C drive and given
the machine back to me. Or they could snatch an identity or two and use them
for their own corrupt pursuits. 

What can I do to make the computer fucking impenetrable at start up? --- to
the point that they have to ask me for the password or  nothing moves. 

The whole episode was unfucking believable and that wasn't all. I had a $50
bill stashed in a small space in my backpack. While in the terminal waiting
to board I discovered it missing. One of the urchins who was protecting the
Jewish state from terrorism burned me. The adapter for my Canon printer is
missing as well. 

In short, the Israelis are unscrupulous bastards who deserve a suitcase
nuke. I am convinced of this after having visited the  tragedy known as the
Occupied Territories--- but that is another matter.

I wrote down most of the questions used for their  profiling scheme. If
anyone is interested I will send them if requested. If anyone is interested
in creating a page dedicated to these profiling schemes(American, Israeli,
anyone)  I would be happy to contribute. 

send security suggestions to: hico at hotmail.com

From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Nov  4 06:59:19 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:59:19 +0800
Subject: Interpol on Computer Crime / Cryptography
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston 
From: oldbear at arctos.com (The Old Bear)
Subject: Interpol on Computer Crime / Cryptography
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:50:39 -0500
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: oldbear at arctos.com (The Old Bear)
Status: U

--- Forwarded message follows ---

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:09:25 +-5-30
From: Rishab Aiyer Ghosh 
Subject: Interpol on Computer Crime
Telecom-Digest: Volume 17, Issue 299
Lines: 135

In the context of FBI Director Louis Freeh's statements on computer crime,
here's the Interpol take.
                                             -rishab

   [from American Reporter, the Internet's only daily newspaper,
   www.american-reporter.com]

EXCLUSIVE: INTERPOL'S TOP INTERNET CRIMEFIGHTER SPEAKS OUT

 Rishab Aiyer Ghosh
 American Reporter Correspondent
 New Delhi, India

 NEW DELHI -- The impact of the Internet on crime-fighting may not be
as great as some hope, Interpol's top expert on networked computer
crimes has told the American Reporter. Hiroaki Takizawa says
old-fashioned methods of seeking evidence and gathering information
may remain the staple of crimefighters for a long time to come.

Takizawa talked to the American Reporter at the 66th annual General
Assembly of the worldwide crime-fighting organization Interpol
 in New Delhi last week, where one of the
key topics of the conference was the impact of the Internet on global
crime and enforcement.

In an interview, the top Interpol expert on Internet and computer
crimes, Hiroaki Takizawa, said despite the serious problems being
posed by the Internet to police everywhere, traditional, off-line
evidence gathering and investigation will remain the primary tools of
law enforcement.

Takizawa admitted that strong cryptography and anonymous email make
illicit transactions difficult to monitor or trace through the
Internet. Interpol, he said, is concerned at the spread of
cryptography, but does not advocate legislation banning it.

"What we concentrate on is the implementation of legislation, rather
than legislation itself," said Takizawa, when asked if he favored a
crypto ban. "Police need human and financial resources" to investigate
crime using the Internet, feels Takizawa, more than unenforceable
legislative bans.

Do police make use of intercepted messages much, on a global scale?
"Yes, I think so, yeah," said Takizawa. However, "we don't, we haven't
had many cases" that relied on undecipherable messages as evidence.

"I don't think the Interpol plays an important role so far as
[legislation on] cryptography is concerned," says Takizawa. The
Interpol cannot make binding treaties affecting national law -- "it is
not really a policy developing organization," he said.

Instead, it makes resolutions "from the police point of view" -- and
its members then go home to lobby with their governments. It does not
intend to make any resolutions on cryptography, though. Instead
"[Interpol] will focus on training and coordination" so that police
forces around the world "can develop practical solutions." As for
changing the law, "the OECD has started
discussion" on cryptography -- and has come to the conclusion
 that crypto bans are not
a good approach.

Interpol finds that an increasing amount of its work involves the Net
or computers in one way or another, and has set up a team to figure
out where police -- and the Interpol -- can have an effective
role. Interpol divides digital crime into three areas: computer crime,
which includes piracy, data-theft and time-theft (computer break-ins);
computer-related crime, which is mainly bank fraud -- "what was a
crime earlier with paper, but is now done with a computer," as
Takizawa says, and pornography.

The third, most recent area that "everyone's talking about now,"
Takizawa said, is what Interpol calls "network crime": the use of the
Internet for transactions that are already illegal -- child
pornography -- or aid illegal activity -- often involving the drug
trade, customs evasion and money laundering.

Takizawa finds that of these network crimes, child pornography and the
use of the Internet as an accessory to child sex abuse -- on-line
advertisements for Asian "sex tours" targeted at Westerners, for
example -- is the easiest to tackle. Stopping the distribution of
pornography itself is harder, though, thanks to the Internet --
"normally [pornography] was checked at the airport and confiscated by
customs, now you just download it by computer" -- so Interpol doesn't
even try, he says.

"Interception [is] impossible," said Takizawa bluntly.

Instead, Interpol uses the easily searched structure of the Net to
trace material back to its off-line origins. Police aided by
Interpol's global network locate brochures for sex tourism on the Net
much more easily than if they were in print, and follow up with
off-line investigations and arrests, he said.

The cross-jurisdictional nature of the Net -- and the fact that
countries disagree on precisely what activities are criminal -- is
less of a problem for child pornography than money-laundering.
Takizawa describes a recent case involving Germany and Japan: "from
Germany we received information [on child pornography found online]
pointing to Japan. Through Interpol we [passed] it on to Japan," where
authorities traced the originators and made arrests.

And what about money laundering? Doesn't the prospect of untraceable,
anonymous global electronic commerce on the Internet scare Interpol?

"Well, my counter-question is, have there been so many cases of
 ... [monetary] transactions using [the] Internet?" asks Takizawa.

Perhaps not -- yet. But once you have some form of the digital
currency required for any large-scale electronic commerce, what will
Interpol do about money laundering?

"We don't know," he admits. When cyberpayments are common, Takizawa
adds, "we cannot tell you what's going to happen. Everybody wants to
know that. If you can predict it perhaps you [will] get the Nobel
prize!"

For an organization sometimes represented as a global police force --
which Interpol is not -- being a coordinating body for 178 national
law enforcement agencies worldwide -- Takizawa's depiction of its
Internet policy is surprisingly tame. His view well may stem from a
basic understanding of the nature of crime, which doesn't occur on the
Internet so much as pass through it. However much criminals use the
Net, says Takizawa, police will always "need more evidence outside the
network."

                      ----------------

Rishab Aiyer Ghosh  is Editor of the New Delhi-based
Indian Techonomist, a popular technology journal.

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: 

From iancly at entrust.com  Tue Nov  4 07:19:25 1997
From: iancly at entrust.com (Ian Clysdale)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:19:25 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: 

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on that one.  S/MIME DOES use 40 bit 
RC2, by the standard, but the standard specifically states the 
weakness of those keys, and recommends using another implementation. 
 The standard strongly recommends the use of triple-DES, and 
apparently the Communicator and Outlook S/MIME triple-DES now 
interoperates properly.  Deming has also had a plugin which does 
triple-DES for quite a while.  In addition, individual vendors are 
allowed to put in any other algorithms into an S/MIME implementation 
that they desire - for example, the default algorithm in Entrust's 
S/MIME implementation is CAST-128.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that while PGP defines both 
algorithm and protocol, S/MIME just defines protocol.  As long as you 
have two clients which share common algorithms, then you can use any 
algorithms that you like with S/MIME.

								ian

----------
From:  Jonathan Wienke [SMTP:JonWienk at ix.netcom.com]
Sent:  Monday, November 03, 1997 9:34 PM
To:  Nobuki Nakatuji; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject:  Re: S/MIME

At 08:49 PM 11/2/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

No. S/MIME uses 40 bit keys, which are trivially breakable by 
paralell
brute-force key search attacks.

Jonathan Wienke

From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov  4 07:58:21 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:58:21 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711041537.KAA26462@users.invweb.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In
,
on 11/04/97 
   at 09:54 AM, Ian Clysdale  said:

>I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on that one.  S/MIME DOES use 40 bit 
>RC2, by the standard, but the standard specifically states the  weakness
>of those keys, and recommends using another implementation. 
> The standard strongly recommends the use of triple-DES, and  apparently
>the Communicator and Outlook S/MIME triple-DES now  interoperates
>properly.  Deming has also had a plugin which does  triple-DES for quite
>a while.  In addition, individual vendors are  allowed to put in any
>other algorithms into an S/MIME implementation  that they desire - for
>example, the default algorithm in Entrust's  S/MIME implementation is
>CAST-128.

>The point that I'm trying to make here is that while PGP defines both 
>algorithm and protocol, S/MIME just defines protocol.  As long as you 
>have two clients which share common algorithms, then you can use any 
>algorithms that you like with S/MIME.

This is not true.

If you read the S/MIME specs it says one MUST implement the RC2/40
algorithm. A MUST in an RFC has a very definate purpose: If an aplication
does not implement all MUST sections of the RFC then it is not compliant!
To create an S/MIME compliant application one MUST implement RC2/40 and
one MUST pay RSA to do so!!

This is the BIG difference between S/MIME and Open-PGP. In Open-PGP there
is no MUST to implemnet weak crypto. In Open-PGP there is no MUST to
implement propritary algoritms.

For those in the cheap seats:

S/MIME:

- -Weak Crypto
- -Pay RSA

Open-PGP:

- -Strong Crypto
- -Don't Pay Anyone

I think that this should be simple enough for anyone here to understand.

If your Entrust product is going to be using S/MIME to communicate with
overseas users of Netscape and/or MS Outlook then you will be using RC2/40
to do so. That is the reason it is in the specs as a MUST, so MS and
Netscape can export their products!!!

Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are letting thier greed get in the way of
developing a message encryption protocol that provides strong crypto to
ALL users.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From iancly at entrust.com  Tue Nov  4 08:02:04 1997
From: iancly at entrust.com (Ian Clysdale)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:02:04 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: 

This is not true.

If you read the S/MIME specs it says one MUST implement the RC2/40
algorithm. A MUST in an RFC has a very definate purpose: If an 
aplication
does not implement all MUST sections of the RFC then it is not 
compliant!
To create an S/MIME compliant application one MUST implement RC2/40 
and
one MUST pay RSA to do so!!

   Umm....  If you read what I wrote, you will see that I said "S/MIME 
DOES implement 40 bit RC2, but it ALSO implements XXXXXXXX. 
 Personally, I'd rather see even weak crypto getting world-wide 
deployment than seeing no crypto getting out because of stupid 
draconian export laws.  However much you may dislike their "weak 
crypto", Netscape and Microsoft are getting more seats of 
crypto-compliant software out there than PGP ever has.  And once the 
infrastructure is out there where everyone can use weak crypto, people 
will (hopefully) realize that it is insecure, and shift to stronger 
algorithms that ARE supported currently in domestic US/Canada 
versions, and which I'm sure someone outside of the States will have 
coming out in the near future, if they're not already there.

Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are letting thier greed get in the way 
of
developing a message encryption protocol that provides strong crypto 
to
ALL users.

   Either that, or Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are being practical 
and doing something that will legally put SOME cryptography in the 
hands of everyone today.  It's all in how you look at it.

							ian

From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov  4 08:37:08 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:37:08 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711041609.LAA26750@users.invweb.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In
,
on 11/04/97 
   at 10:40 AM, Ian Clysdale  said:

>   Either that, or Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are being practical  and
>doing something that will legally put SOME cryptography in the  hands of
>everyone today.  It's all in how you look at it.

There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse than
no security at all".

I doubt that you would find few if any that would agree with you that it
is a good thing having the masses using weak crypto. At least the US
members of the Open-PGP group are willing to sacrifice overseas sales in
the effort to provide STRONG crypto to EVERYONE. It is the right thing to
do. I am sorry to see that you do not uderstand this. 

If you choose to dance with the Devil to line your pockets that is your
choice but don't expect me to recomend that anyone join in with you.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Tue Nov  4 08:45:28 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:45:28 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <345E4500.5828@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711041609.QAA03086@manifold.algebra.com>

This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
after baiting you so successfully.

I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
what she wrote, seriously.

igor

TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> 
> Having Tourette Syndrome can sometimes be a burden, particularly when
> one goes through a long period where their obscene outbursts are serving
> no particular purpose. So it is refreshing when I come across situations
> where all of those huddled masses of naughty words, struggling to be
> free, can be expressed in a meaningful manner, thus living a productive
> life instead of being just wasted.
> 
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > [Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
> > reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]
> 
>   Rookie...
>  
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
> > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> > Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
> > 
> > ALL:
> > I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.
> 
>   Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
> 
> > As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
> > me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> > nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> > brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> > you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> > society?
> 
>   Why do I get the feeling that this Dumb Cunt (TM) has 'all of the
> answers' for society and everyone in it, and is about to share them 
> with us?
>   Well, if she expects us to listen to the divine wisdom of her
> words from the mount, I guess she had better explain to us how we
> are just dirt under her feet, so that we will realize we need to
> listen and learn from her.
> 
> >  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> > them.
> 
>   The shame! The shame!
> 
> >  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
> > taken from someone.  
> 
>   Typo...*should* read "Only a moron knows..."
> 
> >Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
> > to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
> > would say.
> 
>   That's right...you ask AND answer the questions, and we'll just 
> sit here and shut the fuck up.
> 
> > Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> > convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.
> 
>   Does "numerous attempts at convincing" translate to "expressed an
> opinion I disagreed with?"
> 
> >  It is
> > exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
>   Good idea to make vague, unsubstantiated claims in this area. If you
> provided sources and references, someone might be able to throw them
> back in your face and laugh at you for being an ignorant sack of shit,
> using self-serving 'studies' to support untenable logic.
>  
> > So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.
> 
>   Protecting? Hell, I strive to share them with as many people as
> possible. 
> 
> >  That's exactly what happened with the Hitler youth, etc...
> 
>   Uuhhh...you've got a 'study' to not-quote on this theory too, eh?
> 
> >  After all, I'm sure it does help
> > to blur the lines of reality.
> 
>   This makes even less sense than the last sentence. Are you trying
> to communicate propaganda that you don't fully understand?
>   Perhaps you should just stick to slogans and sound-bytes, rather 
> than trying to turn strings of disparate sentences into paragraphs.
> 
> 
> > =====================
> 
> 
> > Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
> > through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
> > being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
> > phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
> > ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
> > reading this.
> > Paul and Jodi Hoffman
> > Weston, Florida
> > 
> > "When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
> > calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
> > speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
> > (Hitler Youth Corps).
> 
>   Are you positive this quote isn't from Eisenhower, in regard to the
> American public educational system?
> 
> > ==================================================
> > LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
> > These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
> > and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
> > Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
> > the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
> > the United States.
> > Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
> > happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
> > answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
> > answers.
> > Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
> > be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.
> 
>   Are you sure this wasn't Nixon, taling about Vietnam and Democracy?
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH
> 
>   Alright! Party time!
>  
> > THE RULE:
> > The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
> > religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
> > from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
> > involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
> > rights.
> >
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
> > physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
> > want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
> > something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
> > back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
> > not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
> > without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
> > slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
> > random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
> > who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
> > parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
> > Soviet Union.
> > The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
> > nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
> > good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
> > it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   It sounds like the Dumb Cunt (TM) is suggesting that the former Soviet
> Union would have been a better place to raise our kids.
>   Yep, go to any high school and all the boys talk about is going over
> to the maternity wing of the hospital and porking the little sluts as
> they exit the womb. Honest! There are _studies_ that show this!
> 
>  > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
> > control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
> > control the minds of the people.
> >
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
> > all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
> > are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
> > motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
> > decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
> > presented.
> > Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
> > governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
> > particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
> > "arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
> > pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
> > Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
> > submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
> > showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.
> > 
> > This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
> > cold, hard reality.
> > The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
> > observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
> > press itself.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   It is unconscienable for the mass media to hold traditional values 
> up to scorn, and mock Ra, Isis, and the many, many gods who were born
> of a virgin and died and rose after three days, the last of which was...
> hang on, his name is on the tip of my tongue...Jesus!
>   Remember: left wing values =/= decency and morality
>   Is the Dumb Cunt telling us that the Moral Majority, which would
> by definition be the "prevailing order of the day," are a bunch of
> queer, violent aborionists with contempt for parental authority?
> I _thought_ there was something weird about those fuckers.
>   Those were non-Christian 'impartial' observers and study managers,
> right? 
> 
>  > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
> > world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
> > and lose respect for government leaders.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
> > history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
> > average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
> > hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
> > have the most open and honest political system in the world.
> 
>   Hold it!
>      
>   OK, continue...
> 
> >   The
> > United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
> > them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
> > representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
> > themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
> > On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
> > pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
> > homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
> > struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
> > "Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
> > things are run anyway!"
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   This is the communists doing this, again, right? Flouridated water,
> etc?
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
> > getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
> > Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
> > trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
> > halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
> > timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
> > conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
> > than in any other nation in the world.
> > 
> > Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
> > or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
> > them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
> > to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
> > cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
> > Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
> > concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
> > "disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
> > composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   If the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing bum-buddies would quit
> opposing environmental concerns, animal-rights, sodomy and dozens 
> of other Neoliberal causes, then there wouldn't be all of that 
> bickering now, would there? 
>   The TruthMonger of the fact is, the problem is that the "real issues
> of importance" *_ARE_* the subject of "concrete action" by those who
> have decided that their own conservative values should be legislated
> into governmental existence in the interests of punishing and 
> imprisoning those with different values.
>   I've never seen anyone imprisoned for _not_ smoking a joint.
>   Think about _that_ you Ignorant Nazi Bitch!
> 
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
> > ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
> > ours.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
> > by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
> > other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
> > a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
> > in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.
> > 
> > Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
> > media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
> > traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
> > claiming "impartiality."
> > 
> > Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
> > people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
> > groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
> > time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?
> > 
> > In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
> > valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).
> > 
> > Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
> > the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
> > international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
> > condemnation.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   The Bibles were removed from the schools by the white Christian
> kids barricaded inside, thowing the Bibles at the niggers, as they
> tried to enter the school buildings. While waiting for the Bibles
> to be replaced the students had nothing left to read but the
> Constitution, and realized that the Bibles shouldn't have been
> there in the first place.
>   I would like to remind the Dumb Cunt that there are no laws
> prohibiting her children from bowing and praying toward Mecca
> three times a day, and it would probably do them some good.
>   The rest of the points above merely serve to illustrate that
> conservatives can't handle good acid, and should probably stick
> to booze.
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Encourage government extravagance on every front.
> > Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
> > government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
> > independence, motivation and strength.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
> > earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
> > dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
> > homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
> > education.
> > 
> > We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
> > of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
> > government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
> > cutbacks in services are proposed.
> > 
> > And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.
> > 
> > They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
> > health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
> > socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   I agree with the Dumb Cunt (TM) on this point. We need to fuck
> away our money on billions and billions of dollars of nuclear arms,
> weapons, surveillance equipment, secret agents and assassins, etc.
>   A decent and moral society can only be ensured by buying 10,000
> toilet seats for the Pentagon.
>   (Jesus. You _really_are_ a Dumb Cunt (TM), aren't you?)
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
> > in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
> > religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
> > one interest:   Themselves!
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > >From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moral
> > relativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The highest
> > goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
> > Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
> > person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
> > themselves.
> > 
> > Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
> > faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
> > one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
> > alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
> > their problems on society.
> > 
> > We have truly become the "me generation."
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   The Dumb Cunt (TM) is beginning to degenerate into drooling and
> meaningless generalizations which make little sense.
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
> > confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
> > thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
> > well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
> > every corner.
> > 
> > The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
> > United States.
> > 
> > Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
> > completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
> > submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
> > permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
> > disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
> > banned.
> > After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
> > every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
> > parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
> > illegal, women will still get abortions.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   I guess it was a mistake for the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing
> bum-buddies to join the left-wing sodomy artists in electing so
> goddamn many Communist gun-snatchers to political office.
>   I think we ought to give Hinkley his gun back, as soon as 
> another Republican is elected President.
> 
>  > RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
> > 
> > THE RULES:
> > Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
> > Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
> > ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
> > within the ranks.
> > Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
> > and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
> > of their armed forces.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
> > national product.
> > We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
> > our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
> > (1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
> > Congress, and
> > (2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
> > it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
> > the new and streamlined armed services.
> > 
> > Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
> > honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
> > as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'
> > 
> > Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
> > if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.
> > 
> > Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   And all of the good soldiers, like Tim McVeigh, end up leaving.
>  
> > FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
> > ================================================================
> > The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
> > that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
> > attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
> > extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
> > from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
> > and from the United States itself.
> > They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
> > Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
> > 21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
> > These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
> > revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
> > Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
> > any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
> > great detail by many Americans.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   Vladimir Lenin's best friend in the whole, wide world, is the Dumb
> Cunt (TM) and her Nazi Christian bum-buddies. 
>   The Godless Communists and the Nazi Christians could trade their
> brochures and just interchange the words  "Commie" and "Christian."
> 
>   I wish I had a penny for every Dumb Cunt (TM) and Stupid Prick (TM)
> who spent the majority of their time promoting the very same beliefs
> as those they claim to oppose, the only difference being that their
> 'solution' is the MLM promoting of a 'god' with a different name,
> or a 'flag' with a different 'hang time.'
> 
> > --
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > 1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
> > Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361
> 
>   Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
> Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
> her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
> at others?
> 
> Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
> If it saves the life of just one child...
> 
> TruthMonger
> 

	- Igor.

From iancly at entrust.com  Tue Nov  4 09:01:33 1997
From: iancly at entrust.com (Ian Clysdale)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:01:33 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: 

There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse 
than
no security at all".

I doubt that you would find few if any that would agree with you that 
it
is a good thing having the masses using weak crypto. At least the US
members of the Open-PGP group are willing to sacrifice overseas sales 
in
the effort to provide STRONG crypto to EVERYONE. It is the right thing 
to
do. I am sorry to see that you do not uderstand this.

   Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is 
rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak 
crypto in certain circumstances, when it is KNOWN to be weak.   The 
phrase "Poor security is worse than no security" refers to the dangers 
in assuming that your communications are secure, even when they're 
not.  If you know that your cryptography is weak, it can still 
sometimes be sufficient for your purposes. What weak cryptography does 
is protect from passive attacks, such as simple wire-tapping.  While 
an RC2/40 message can be trivially broken in a matter of hours, it 
can't be broken in real-time.  If EVERYONE used even RC2/40, then 
passive attacks would be foiled, because the  just isn't going to bother breaking every single transmitted 
message.
   Now, of course, if you're doing something where you don't want your 
communications to be intercepted under any circumstances, then you 
want to be using something stronger than RC2/40.  However, S/MIME 
doesn't prevent that at all.  DES is a published standard, and I'm 
waiting for somebody outside of the USA to implement triple-DES with 
S/MIME.  This will inter-operate with Outlook and Netscape clients 
inside the USA (theoretically).
   Including a minimum baseline of weak cryptography is NOT denying 
strong cryptography to everyone.  Once the patent on RC2 expires 
(which is very soon) or if RSA gets dropped on their head and finally 
does the intelligent move of releasing it to the public domain, then 
S/MIME provides an expandable infrastructure for secure mail, with a 
huge user base already out there, and in a form much more spoonable to 
the unwashed masses.

						Ian

From berezina at qed.net  Tue Nov  4 09:21:55 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:21:55 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3464504f.9626871@mail.qed.net>

Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>Ross Wright wrote:
>> 
>> From:
>> 
>> http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
>> 
>> You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
>> normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
>> encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
>> were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
>> harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
>> sex-education programs.
>> Hmmm...didn't I already have that written there?  If not, it's probably in our book.

He was *quoting* you -- the apparent homophobia needed no comment. God, you
really are a

[rest of drafted reply snipped in deference to Declan]

Paul

http://www.nihidyll.com/attributions.html

From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Tue Nov  4 09:34:09 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:34:09 +0800
Subject: Forging your return address.
In-Reply-To: <199711041533.JAA03467@orion.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <345F5723.44A3@sk.sympatico.ca>

Sympatico Admin wrote:
> Hi Larry,
> 
> We have determined that you have be trying set your email program to
> be anonymous; ie forging your return address. If you wish to be
> anonymous then get a free email account with hotmail.com or rocketmail.

Dan,

The Sympatico Netscape software you provide has features that allow
the user to choose not to give out their email address to those that
they wish to keep it from, such as spammers, criminals and sex-shop
operators.
I have not been made aware of any Sympatico policy which requires your
users to make themselves vulnerable to anyone and everyone who has
connections to the InterNet.

> Your forged reply-to addresses 'fred at dev.null' get rejected by our
> email system and sit in our mail queue.

My chosen reply-to addresses at 'dev.null' are a traditional UNIX
method of directing files and email to /dev/null, which is the
equivalent of the Trash Bin on a Mac. You seem to have set up your
UNIX system to emulate a Win95 Recycle Bin, in that it assumes that 
the user doesn't know what he or she is doing, so saves deleted items.
Dev.null addresses are designed to get rejected by the email system,
so it seems rather useless to keep them in your mail queue.

> Also please do not set your
> email program to relay through someone else's server in another domain as
> there have been complaints. We do not allow this to be done from anyone
> outside our domain.

You will have to explain to me what exactly you are talking about
here, as it is unclear to me what you are referring to.
Please forward me copies of the complaints.

> Please note: this note is being sent to our security dept. as we deem this type
> of activity to be mis-use of the mail system and as such you could loose
> your access privleges.

Since this seems to be of such serious concern to you, I would certainly
appreciate it if you could explain to me in greater detail exactly what
it is about my use of my account that Sympatico has a policy problem
with, and why.

> If you have any question or concerns then please reply to this note!

I notice that your reply to address, 'Sympatico Admin ', is not
a valid InterNet email address. Is this an internal system address?

Toto

From jim at acm.org  Tue Nov  4 09:54:56 1997
From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:54:56 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <345F6ABC.1E6AB2C@acm.org>

Ian Clysdale wrote:

>    Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is
> rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak
> crypto in certain circumstances, when it is KNOWN to be weak.   The
> phrase "Poor security is worse than no security" refers to the dangers
> in assuming that your communications are secure, even when they're
> not.  If you know that your cryptography is weak, it can still
> sometimes be sufficient for your purposes. What weak cryptography does

There's a good reason this viewpoint is unpopular: it includes the tacit
assumption that strong crypto is harder to do than weak crypto.  In fact
that's not the case.  It's as fast and easy to do RC4/128 as to do
RC4/40 -- the only extra resource is keying material, which is cheap.

The  reason to use weak cryptography is political.

I'll also challenge your "If you know that your cryptography is weak"
meme:
most people have no idea what cryptography is, and at best can look at
the
little key to see if they're on a secure page.  Explaining to them that
they're
not really secure is normally possible in a one-to-one tutorial, but most

people just want to get their work done, and if the program says they're
now
in secure mode, they'll feel free to send their SSN/SIN/NID and their HIV

status.  They  know their cryptography is weak, even if you tell
them.

Bad idea!  Bad!

--
        Jim Gillogly
        14 Blotmath S.R. 1997, 18:27
        12.19.4.11.12, 1 Eb 10 Zac, Seventh Lord of Night

From declan at well.com  Tue Nov  4 11:22:17 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:22:17 +0800
Subject: Senate Commerce cmte approves tax freedom bill 14-5
Message-ID: 

[Right now I'm over at the Digital/Altavista summit to discuss rating
systems in search engines so I missed the vote. (Barry Steinhardt from the
ACLU just finished speaking. Sen. Judd Gregg, a CDA fan, spoke this
morning.) This bill limits local and state governments' ability to tax the
Net. --Declan]

----

(forwarded to me by a House staffer)

>The full Senate Commerce Committee voted today 14-5 to approve an amended
>version of the Internet Tax Freedom Act.  Here's how members voted:
>
>14 Yes: McCain, Stevens, Burns, Snowe, Ashcroft, Frist, Abraham, Brownback,
>Hollings, Inouye, Rockefeller, Kerry, Breaux, Wyden
>5 No: Gorton, Hutchinson, Ford, Bryan, Dorgan
>1 Did not vote: Lott

From lars.hornell at ornskoldsvik.mail.telia.com  Tue Nov  4 11:53:13 1997
From: lars.hornell at ornskoldsvik.mail.telia.com (lars.hornell at ornskoldsvik.mail.telia.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:53:13 +0800
Subject: mixmaster...
Message-ID: <345F760C.2E90@ornskoldsvik.mail.telia.com>

Is mixmaster not avalible to download or what???
If it IS avalible to download. Where can I download it then???

From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov  4 11:54:21 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:54:21 +0800
Subject: Monty Cantsin README
Message-ID: <+Ov6tov0v6CRImkYC6mE2g==@bureau42.ml.org>

Please post your public key somewhere. There's a variety of keyservers, or
even to this list would be adequate.

KeyMonger

From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov  4 12:19:04 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:19:04 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Igor Chudov @ home spoke:
>
> This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> after baiting you so successfully.
>
> I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> what she wrote, seriously.

Believe it, Igor. There's a large number of people in the country
who believe as she does, though perhaps not too many of them have
the chutzpah to post such opinions to the fight-censorship list
(where it could certainly be interpreted as a troll).

Let's face it, there're a lot of people in the US who'd be happier
if they were governed like China or Singapore; they want a stern
authoritarian voice keeping society 'decent' and the homosexuals
and other 'perverts' under control and out of sight, regulating
what you can read and watch on TV, and what gets taught in schools,
regulating what you can smoke and drink and sniff, and
indoctrinating children into and enforcing the rules of the
locally preferred religion.

While they may pay lip service to it, they care little for the first
amendment (except as it assures //them// the right to express
//their// views or practice //their// religion). Sure, they'll wave
the flag and mouth the words 'Constitution' and 'Bill of Rights', but
their solution to every disagreement is 'put them in jail' or 'pass
another law'.

Frondeur

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v64l2UxSDvLRRZDDZY3B2LhJTw==
=/z57
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From jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Tue Nov  4 12:26:31 1997
From: jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:26:31 +0800
Subject: Senate Commerce cmte approves tax freedom bill 14-5
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> >The full Senate Commerce Committee voted today 14-5 to approve an amended
> >version of the Internet Tax Freedom Act.  Here's how members voted:
> >
> >14 Yes: McCain, Stevens, Burns, Snowe, Ashcroft, Frist, Abraham, Brownback,
> >Hollings, Inouye, Rockefeller, Kerry, Breaux, Wyden
> >5 No: Gorton, Hutchinson, Ford, Bryan, Dorgan
> >1 Did not vote: Lott
> 

Hmmmm.  With a yes vote from the above mentioned parties I wonder
what the possible implications are.  Specifically McCain, Inouye and
Rockefeller.

Ashcroft has been pro internet for years so I'm not concerned.

Is there anything in the ITFA that assigns specific powers that
didn't exist before?  Like a Federal Tax on Internet Access?

Interesting.

jim

-----
Jim Burnes
Security Software Engineer, SSDS Inc.
Denver, CO
Remove the n-o-s-p-a-m. from my email to respond
-----

From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Nov  4 12:29:44 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:29:44 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711042002.PAA28874@users.invweb.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse 
>>than no security at all".

>>I doubt that you would find few if any that would agree with you that  it
>>is a good thing having the masses using weak crypto. At least the US
>>members of the Open-PGP group are willing to sacrifice overseas sales  in
>>the effort to provide STRONG crypto to EVERYONE. It is the right thing 
>>to do. I am sorry to see that you do not uderstand this.

In
,
on 11/04/97 
   at 11:24 AM, Ian Clysdale  said:

>   Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is 
>rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak 
>crypto in certain circumstances, when it is KNOWN to be weak.   The 
>phrase "Poor security is worse than no security" refers to the dangers 
>in assuming that your communications are secure, even when they're  not. 
>If you know that your cryptography is weak, it can still  sometimes be
>sufficient for your purposes. What weak cryptography does  is protect
>from passive attacks, such as simple wire-tapping.  While  an RC2/40
>message can be trivially broken in a matter of hours, it  can't be broken
>in real-time.  If EVERYONE used even RC2/40, then  passive attacks would
>be foiled, because the  just isn't going
>to bother breaking every single transmitted  message.
>   Now, of course, if you're doing something where you don't want your 
>communications to be intercepted under any circumstances, then you  want
>to be using something stronger than RC2/40.  However, S/MIME  doesn't
>prevent that at all.  DES is a published standard, and I'm  waiting for
>somebody outside of the USA to implement triple-DES with  S/MIME.  This
>will inter-operate with Outlook and Netscape clients  inside the USA
>(theoretically).
>   Including a minimum baseline of weak cryptography is NOT denying 
>strong cryptography to everyone.  Once the patent on RC2 expires  (which
>is very soon) or if RSA gets dropped on their head and finally  does the
>intelligent move of releasing it to the public domain, then  S/MIME
>provides an expandable infrastructure for secure mail, with a  huge user
>base already out there, and in a form much more spoonable to  the
>unwashed masses.

This is nothing but selfserving bullshit in a vain effort to justify YOUR
sellout for a paycheck.

Your product will use WEAK RC2/40 DOMESTICALLY as long as it is
communicating with someone useing these weak keys. How does your program
warn the user that the crypto being used is unacceptable?? Does it warn
them at all?? Does it refuse to use the WEAK crypto?? I know I get no
warning from NS if weak keys are being used, just the happy key to tell me
everything is ok. Do you see this as a GoodThing(TM)?? WEAK crypto is WEAK
crypto and should not be tolerated in any way shape or form. 

Having a minimum baseline of weak crypto is not a GoodThing(TM) it is a
BadThing(TM). If the people at Entrust can't figure that out then I have
serious question as to the security and quality of your product regardless
of the algorthims being used!!

PS: Please learn how to set up your mailer so that it quotes properly.
 one would think that someone in this business could grasp such
basic concepts.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From declan at well.com  Tue Nov  4 12:36:46 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:36:46 +0800
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
Message-ID: 

Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) is the chairman of the Senate appropriations
committee's subcommittee that funds the FBI. Today he spoke at
Digital/AltaVista's "Summit on Internet Content Filtering & Third-Party
Rating." He said that he "disagreed with the Supreme Court" ruling that
struck down the CDA as unconstitutional. He praised the FCC and the V-chip.
He also said:

"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
period."

Uh-huh.

-Declan

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 13:14:29 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:14:29 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: <199711042050.VAA08680@basement.replay.com>

William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >>There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse
> >>than no security at all".

>    at 11:24 AM, Ian Clysdale  said:
> 
> >   Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is
> >rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak
> >crypto in certain circumstances

> This is nothing but selfserving bullshit in a vain effort to justify YOUR
> sellout for a paycheck.

Nortel is nothing more than a Canadian schill for the SnoopSpooks.

Just as the INSLAW Thieves & Murderers used Indian Reservations in an
attempt to pretend that they weren't breaking US law because their
actions were taking place on the soil of a Soverign Nation, the US
criminals use the same bullshit logic to circumvent the laws that
apply to their illegal actions.

It is no coincidence that Nortel is the nesting place of a wide
variety of censorship vermin such as Chris Lewis, and his ilk.
An analysis of a number of employees of Nortel and their bum
buddies shows that the time spent in their output of UseNet
cancels and FUD posts and emails corresponds to the hours of
a corporate work schedule.

Nortel is nothing more than a front for the SnoopSpooks who 
want to capitalize on Canada's image as a Soverign Country
to push their backdoor products in the global community.
These are the same lame fuckers who pulled off this act
in Switzerland, with governments and corporations buying
security products from a country noted for its neutrality,
and then finding out later that it was a front for a
German company that had the CIA's nose up their butt.

It amazes me that corporations and governments put their trust
in any company with the word 'Security' in its name, without
doing a check on their backgrounds and connections that is
at least as intensive as they would do for a new employee.

From ed at justanote.com  Wed Nov  5 05:22:18 1997
From: ed at justanote.com (ed at justanote.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:22:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Congress values your opinion
Message-ID: <199711030601.BAA29226@eclipse.freemanchester.com>

Visit this URL: http://www.netline-to-congress.com/ and cast a vote that really counts.

From star at 1daystar.com  Wed Nov  5 05:23:49 1997
From: star at 1daystar.com (star at 1daystar.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:23:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: UCE - Puts money in YOUR pocket!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@1daystar.com>

***********************************************************************************************************
This list has been run through all known remove lists.  If we missed you and want to removed
from this list, reply to neweb at 1daystar.com with "remove" in the subject field.  
***********************************************************************************************************

Work SMART......not hard!

Make $THOUSANDS$ a week and do absolutely NOTHING except pass out this 800
number with your code number.   NO SELLING! NO HASSLE! A NO BRAINER!!

This company does the selling for you,  closes the deal,  and sends you your
money every Friday.

Don't miss this opportunity! Call now!

1-800-811-2141   Code #44737  (This is HOT!  If it is busy, keep trying).

In Canada call 1-800-588-9786  Code #44737

PS.  The company is Fortune 5000.  They have been in business 15 months and are
registered with the BBB in Junction City, KS.

From phelix at vallnet.com  Tue Nov  4 13:32:33 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:32:33 +0800
Subject: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>
Message-ID: <345f8817.3651882@128.2.84.191>

On 4 Nov 1997 14:08:19 -0600, kraiwut at samart.co.th wrote:

>
>Profiling/personal computer security at Ben Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv
>I just had a rather unholy experience in Israel. Maybe someone with
>expertise can email me a few suggestions with regards to securing a PC at
>start up.
>
[ long horror story deleted]
>
>What can I do to make the computer fucking impenetrable at start up? --- to
>the point that they have to ask me for the password or  nothing moves. 

Nothing can stop them completely from starting up your machine.  The best
thing you can do is to use a bios password, but that won't hold up if
somebody cracks open the machine.

If somebody can get physical control of your computer, they can start it
up.  However, that doesn't mean that they can run anything important.
Encrypt your files and install everything on one of the secure filesystems
floating around ( like SFS from
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/sfs.html ).

Also check out the following site for a description of a secure notebook
machine:

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/cbintro.html

-- Phelix

From Money at cyber-pages.net  Wed Nov  5 05:42:54 1997
From: Money at cyber-pages.net (Money at cyber-pages.net)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:42:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: #36,000 in 14 Weeks
Message-ID: <>

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

 "Please Read This Twice!" 

 Dear friend,

 =========================================================
 =========================================================
 I've always been skeptical of programs like this. But, after quadrupling
my initial investment in 1 week, I became a believer!
 If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION,  please do not click
reply, 
 use the contact information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
 =========================================================
 =========================================================

              *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

 The following income opportunity is one you may be intersested in 
taking a 
 look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income
return
 is TREMENDOUS!!!  

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
 Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the 
 program...  THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever
 see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of
 money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever
 growing population which needs additional income.

 This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not
 require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
 of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If
you 
 believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been
 waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your
 dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing program
works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start
their
 own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is
 your chance, so don't pass it up.

 OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC 
 MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

 Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product
for 
 $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all
 multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new
partners
 and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit
 new multi- level business online (with your computer).

 The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial
 reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the
e-mail
 address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the
product to
 the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST
 electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!

 FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
 Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
 So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!

         ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

 This is what you MUST do:

 1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
     For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
     RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.
     When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
     will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on
     your computer and reselling them.

 2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
     instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
     should.

     Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
     the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
     address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
     under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
     REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
     the bank.

     When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
     address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
     positions!

 3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
     and save it on your computer.

 4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
     avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
     these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
     AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

 REQUIRED REPORTS

 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

 ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC
REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR
PRIORITY MAIL AND
PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #1
   "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

     TSH        
     P.O. Box 11115
     MANASSAS PARK, VA 20113

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #2
   "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

     L Jones
     3320 48th St
     Des Moines, IA  50310

-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #3
   "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

   ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

     G. D. Enterprises
     P.O. Box 197
     Charlestown, MD 21914

-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #4
   "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

        Chris Miller
        960 Laurel Springs Lane
        Marietta, GA 30064-3961
-------------------------------------------------

 HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume
 your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better
 response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION
 gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING
 results below.

 1st level --  your 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                     
$50
 2nd level --10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)                  $500
 3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)           $5,000
 4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     $50,000
                                 THIS TOTALS----------->       $55,550

 Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
 only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
 happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get
 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

 By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.
 You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!
 REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing
 email lists.

 REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!

 *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY,
 so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
 When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/
 report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,
 Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
 also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
 state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
    instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!

 *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

         The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
 You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If
 you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
 until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at
 least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send
 out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more
 orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way
 to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

 REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in
 front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
 by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

 NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business
 name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the
Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and
answers to
 questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via
telephone
 and free seminars about business taxes.

         ******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

 This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
 rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work,
 you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really
is a
great
 opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If
you
 do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on
your
 way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in
financial
 trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                                         Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                         Sincerely, Chris Johnson

 P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks
 like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

         My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.
 I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
 pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris
 about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting
 my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it
 wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
 jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
 to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
 well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50
 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!
 I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't 
 work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby.
I
did
 have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race"
and
 it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
                                         Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

 I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. 
 Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even
 checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.  
 It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                                         Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

 This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I 
 participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised
 when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered
 off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens
 of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their
 good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
                                         Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK

 The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

 This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders
 OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you
follow
 the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not
better.
 Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
                                         Good Luck!  G. Bank

         Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make
 up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am
 I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
 just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money
 back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box
 crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to
 start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this
 year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this
 deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.
 There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                                 Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

         I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later
 I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
 idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I
 was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I
 didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
                                         D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

         This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have
 quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live
 off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan
 will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's
 sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order
 your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create
 too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
                                         Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

         Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to
 know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for
 my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention
 for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly
 from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been
 trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well
 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded
 and I'm sure the other will be soon!
                                         Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

 ====================================================

 We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!  

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
 STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

From Money at cyber-pages.net  Wed Nov  5 05:42:54 1997
From: Money at cyber-pages.net (Money at cyber-pages.net)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:42:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: #36,000 in 14 Weeks
Message-ID: <>

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

 "Please Read This Twice!" 

 Dear friend,

 =========================================================
 =========================================================
 I've always been skeptical of programs like this. But, after quadrupling
my initial investment in 1 week, I became a believer!
 If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION,  please do not click
reply, 
 use the contact information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
 =========================================================
 =========================================================

              *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

 The following income opportunity is one you may be intersested in 
taking a 
 look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income
return
 is TREMENDOUS!!!  

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
 Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the 
 program...  THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever
 see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of
 money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever
 growing population which needs additional income.

 This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not
 require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
 of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If
you 
 believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been
 waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your
 dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing program
works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start
their
 own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is
 your chance, so don't pass it up.

 OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC 
 MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

 Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product
for 
 $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all
 multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new
partners
 and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit
 new multi- level business online (with your computer).

 The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial
 reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the
e-mail
 address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the
product to
 the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST
 electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!

 FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
 Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
 So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!

         ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

 This is what you MUST do:

 1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
     For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
     RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.
     When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
     will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on
     your computer and reselling them.

 2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
     instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
     should.

     Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
     the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
     address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
     under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
     REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
     the bank.

     When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
     address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
     positions!

 3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
     and save it on your computer.

 4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
     avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
     these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
     AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

 REQUIRED REPORTS

 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

 ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC
REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR
PRIORITY MAIL AND
PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #1
   "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

     TSH        
     P.O. Box 11115
     MANASSAS PARK, VA 20113

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #2
   "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

     L Jones
     3320 48th St
     Des Moines, IA  50310

-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #3
   "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

   ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

     G. D. Enterprises
     P.O. Box 197
     Charlestown, MD 21914

-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #4
   "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

        Chris Miller
        960 Laurel Springs Lane
        Marietta, GA 30064-3961
-------------------------------------------------

 HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume
 your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better
 response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION
 gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING
 results below.

 1st level --  your 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                     
$50
 2nd level --10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)                  $500
 3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)           $5,000
 4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     $50,000
                                 THIS TOTALS----------->       $55,550

 Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
 only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
 happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get
 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

 By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.
 You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!
 REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing
 email lists.

 REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!

 *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY,
 so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
 When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/
 report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,
 Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
 also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
 state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
    instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!

 *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

         The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
 You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If
 you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
 until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at
 least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send
 out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more
 orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way
 to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

 REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in
 front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
 by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

 NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business
 name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the
Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and
answers to
 questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via
telephone
 and free seminars about business taxes.

         ******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

 This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
 rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work,
 you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really
is a
great
 opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If
you
 do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on
your
 way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in
financial
 trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                                         Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                         Sincerely, Chris Johnson

 P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks
 like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

         My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.
 I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
 pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris
 about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting
 my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it
 wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
 jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
 to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
 well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50
 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!
 I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't 
 work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby.
I
did
 have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race"
and
 it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
                                         Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

 I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. 
 Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even
 checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.  
 It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                                         Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

 This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I 
 participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised
 when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered
 off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens
 of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their
 good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
                                         Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK

 The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

 This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders
 OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you
follow
 the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not
better.
 Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
                                         Good Luck!  G. Bank

         Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make
 up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am
 I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
 just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money
 back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box
 crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to
 start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this
 year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this
 deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.
 There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                                 Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

         I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later
 I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
 idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I
 was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I
 didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
                                         D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

         This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have
 quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live
 off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan
 will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's
 sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order
 your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create
 too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
                                         Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

         Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to
 know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for
 my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention
 for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly
 from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been
 trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well
 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded
 and I'm sure the other will be soon!
                                         Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

 ====================================================

 We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!  

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
 STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

From mhw at wittsend.com  Tue Nov  4 14:10:58 1997
From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:10:58 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711040540.AAA03771@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: <199711042146.QAA02613@alcove.wittsend.com>

Mark Rogaski enscribed thusly:
> An entity claiming to be Anonymous wrote:
	:
	: - Some of message deleted
	:
> : > No source no security.
> : 
> : You don't trust Schneier?  You've seen the limitations of source code
> : release.  Experts like Schneier and his team designing the crypto is
> : worth more than a bunch of know nothings scratching their heads and
> : wondering where to begin with 1000+ pages of source code.

> If the source were available, there would be no need to trust Schneier.
> I trust his expertise, but have no basis (or inclination) to make guesses
> about his character.  No matter how many people refer to Applied Crypto as
> "a Bible", it's not the kind of book that encourages blind faith.

	Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
whatever they are telling us.  And I agree...  No source, no security.
Windows only...  No way...

	Bruce?

> Doc
> 
> -- 
> [] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
> [] wendigo at pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw at WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

From phelix at vallnet.com  Tue Nov  4 14:15:31 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:15:31 +0800
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3460988a.7864170@128.2.84.191>

On 4 Nov 1997 15:38:41 -0600, Declan McCullagh  wrote:

>
>Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) is the chairman of the Senate appropriations
>committee's subcommittee that funds the FBI. Today he spoke at
>Digital/AltaVista's "Summit on Internet Content Filtering & Third-Party
>Rating." He said that he "disagreed with the Supreme Court" ruling that
>struck down the CDA as unconstitutional. He praised the FCC and the V-chip.
>He also said:
>
>"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
>explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
>period."
>

Oh God. Please tell me they're not going to rehash that shit again (More
than anything, what's CMU now known for:  censorship.  makes me embarassed
to have a degree from that place.)

-- Phelix

From aleph at cco.caltech.edu  Tue Nov  4 14:22:49 1997
From: aleph at cco.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:22:49 +0800
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971104140135.00cbf7b0@pop-server.caltech.edu>

At 03:13 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) said:
>
>"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
>explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
>period."
>
	They spent 18 months searching and they only found a combined total
917,410 instances of the above?  That's hilarious!  It's times like these
that remind me that parents really do need to watch out for what their kids
do on the net.  Of course far more than 917,410 people are killed every 18
months in car accidents, so the net shouldn't be at the top of the list of
scary things a parent has to deal with by a long shot.  Good advice: Never
let your children use search engines.  _I_ can rarely find what I want
using them.  

                             -Colin

From jlhoffm at ibm.net  Wed Nov  5 06:25:29 1997
From: jlhoffm at ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:25:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
Message-ID: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>

From: Lizard :
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
===========
Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
finally noticed something about Christians....
Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments, which is a hell of a
lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
how to conduct a Passover service!  Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
same as being "kind of" pregnant.

(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

From askcarl at adelphia.net  Tue Nov  4 14:37:43 1997
From: askcarl at adelphia.net (Carl Beasley)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:37:43 +0800
Subject: maillist
Message-ID: <345F9F6A.5C77371C@adelphia.net>

please include me on the mail list.

thank you

carl

From berezina at qed.net  Wed Nov  5 06:52:33 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:52:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why, Jodi Hoffman?
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <346184a7.1422966@mail.qed.net>

Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>From: Lizard :
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)

Lizard's a Semite. Could you cite examples of "anti-Semetic spears"?

Paul

The final elegance, not to console
Nor sanctify, but plainly to propound.

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Nov  4 14:53:21 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:53:21 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199711042232.WAA04306@server.test.net>

Monty writes:
> >What language did you have in mind?  modula-3?  iso-pascal/borland
> >pascal?
> 
> Hadn't thought of Modula-3, but that is an excellent idea.  Java would
> be a candidate, although performance is an issue.  

Java isn't so bad.  Just in time compilers are being shipped with some
browsers (netscape on some platforms).  Sun now has native bigint
library (good for you know what, and exportable because they haven't
included the few lines required to implement public key encryption
with it).

Modula-3 is also fairly clean... garbage collection, bounds checked
arrays, etc.  A `safe' language.  There is indeed a m3 -> c
translator.  I think GNU were working on a m3 module for their
retargetable gcc compiler suite (to go with ada, C, fortran, pascal).
I did hear talk of a java gcc front end also.

> While it may seem crazy to toss compatibility, it has some advantages.
> For instance, the only people who will use it are the hardcore types.
> I like the idea of an exclusive crypto system that only cool people
> who are fairly with it use.

I think there would be advantages to always tunneling the encrypted
messages inside PGP, that way no snoops know you're using it, until
it's too late.

> How about finding a way to eliminate indicators?  It's nice not to
> leak any information at all.  It also makes super-encryption stronger.
> If each encrypted layer looks like noise, the total key size is the
> sum of the bits of each layer.

That's a reasonable idea if you're going to use things like IDEA( k1,
3DES( k2, data ) ).

> If the protocol doesn't accept multiple keys for a message it is
> slightly CAK/GAK resistent.  And, it's a nice statement of intent.
> It's also nice to have tools which help you to behave securely without
> carefully thinking about it when you are using them.

Forward secrecy is what you want for GAK resistance -- can't get much
more GAK hostile than burning your keys seconds after message receipt.

> The randseed.bin file has always bothered me.  What we really want is
> some good sources of entropy in which we have tremendous confidence.

What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
your passphrase.

> >If you use PGP's random pool, one suspects that if IDEA becomes
> >attackable at some point in the future the random pool will start to
> >look more like a predictable PRNG to the attacker.
> >
> >I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
> >more suspect.
> 
> Well, neither of these would be good for a one time pad, of course.

Linux's /dev/random might not be bad.  There is some real entropy in
key strokes and mouse movements, and they are quite conservative about
entropy estimation.  You can easily make it more conservative -- XOR
together a load of it to derive a smaller key.

> It would be neat to have, say, three sources of hardware randomness
> and then XOR the result with the above pseudo random output.

That'd be fine.  Personally not being a hardware type, I am suspicious
of hardware RNGs.. I can't tell when they are going wrong.. failure
modes can be dangerous (whoops lead fell of geiger tube), etc.
Software and computers are easier to understand.  Provided you XOR the
lot together you should be fine though.

> You know, it would be cool to define a software architecture for
> remailer software.  Different remailers have different properties and
> different strategies.  They may continue to differentiate.

One thing that is sorely needed in my opinion is a simple way to
integrate with existing mailers.  Ie to have some code which acts as
an interface between various extensible email based functions
(remailers, signatures, DC nets, keyservers) and MUAs.  Then someone
gets to fight with the plugin API once, and after that we can
automatically add features which work with lots of MUAs.

The future is in extensibility.  Java is pretty good for this.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199711042214.WAA04293@server.test.net>

Tim May  writes:
> Monty writes:
> >The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
> >cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
> >it clear from day one that it is not free software.  
> 
> _This_ cryptoanarchist will almost _never_ pay for that which is free.

It depends what you call free.  If someone puts a copy of eudora pro
5.67 or whatever other commercial software up on the eternity service,
is that "free"?

It is free to the extent that it is unlikely that you will be caught.
It is even less likely that you will be caught if you are a nym using
remailers mostly.

The difference with an anonymous cryptoanarchist run software house is
that you know that they probably aren't paying taxes on their sales.
So you have additional assurance that they can't touch you if you use
their software -- they'd have to blow their cover unless they just
made a donation to AP or something:-)

People copy commercial software all the time.  I suspect only some
small fraction of personal use software is ever paid for.  Companies
are less likely to do this because they are larger and more worth
going after, and because the SPA software police have caused some
companies problems already.

The shareware, beggarware, or "charityware" approach of giving it away
for free, and then demanding or begging payment is partly an
acknowledgement that there is no way to stop you redistributing it
even if they demanded payment up front.  Plus the advantage that you
get free distribution, if people like it, it'll be all over the place
in no time.  Beggarware has worked for a few people, I think, perhaps
ID software's DOOM was one example.  Yes most people didn't pay, but
the free advertising more than compensated I suspect.

We to frown on protocols which rely on "please give me money", or "and
then we call the cops".  Payment protocols should be clean.

One alternative which Intel is brewing up for us is clipper CPUs which
do things against their owners interests, like encrypted instruction
schemes... nasty stuff.  This would then be used to ensure your copy
of the software won't run on other peoples machines.  That could be
enabling technology for all sorts of snooping.

One idea which I did like was the open bidding for a product to be
developed, people interested in the feature or product pay how much it
is worth to them up front, developers bid to take the job on.  After
it's done the software is freeware.  Supporting ideas discussed before
on this topic are that first to complete gets paid, or lowest bidder
presents completion bond, and that there are independent aribitrators
checking quality.

There was someone who posted to the list that he was going to set this
up.  He even purchased the domain name if I recall.  What happened,
did anything come of it?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199711042243.WAA04316@server.test.net>

Marc Horowitz  writes:
> As long as it's cheaper or more convenient to buy digital media from
> the publisher than to copy it yourself, the piracy problem basically
> doesn't exist.
> [...]
> I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem,
> outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.

That principle works to some extent, particularly for the bandwidth
impoverished, and the currently bloated games software trying to fill
CD-ROMs with unnecessary junk for one presumes this very purpose.

Leave the bandwidth a while, and the problem may arise again.

I wonder at 2c/minute, say 2k/sec (28.8 modem) that's 6Mb/$ for me
(don't have free local call UK side).  That's $100 for a 600Mb CD!

So as long as the CD costs under $100 and the unnecessary bloatware is
hard for a warez hacker to strip out, that makes it worth buying the
CD.

Another advantage of having the CD is that it's a backup copy, and you
can keep large stuff (say electronic copies of manuals) on it without
chewing up disk space which is more expensive.

Be interesting to see what happens to software copyright as bandwidth
gets more plentiful, as huge solid state mass storage gets cheaper,
and as information becomes harder to track with widespread crypto, and
nicer anonymous protocols enabled by high bandwidth everywhere come
online.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199711042303.SAA28199@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>

Robert, 

Um.... I think you are over stating things "just a little"...

The URL you referenced says:

	"State policy makers and officials are CONSIDERING [emphasis
	added] innovative plans to develop a smart driver's
	license. IF IMPLEMENTED,[emphasis added] New Jersey would be
	the first state in the nation to require drivers to carry the
	new "smart card," which will look more like a credit card... "
			:
			:

There are plenty of things in the world of information privacy to get
hysterical about; but please lets not proclaim them realities before
they actually are...

Having said that... if you live in the Garden State, get on the phone
to your state legislators and express your concerns on this troubling
idea and how it may be used before is DOES become something to scream
about....

David

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector at zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security                 voice: +1 212.579.8573
Amateur Radio: W2DHM (ex-N2BCA) (ARRL life member)       GridSquare: FN30AS
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells

From j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net  Wed Nov  5 07:19:48 1997
From: j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net (James S. Tyre)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:19:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105071748.00776524@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>

At 02:23 PM 11/5/97 +0000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>From: Lizard :
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
>===========
>Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
>finally noticed something about Christians....
>Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
>(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments, which is a hell of a
>lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
>Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
>how to conduct a Passover service!  Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
>is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
>same as being "kind of" pregnant.
>
>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)

The spears I would chuck would be anti-ignorance, not anti-Sem*i*tic
(spelling counts).

But I won't chuck them, because I have suddenly seen the light that the
religion I have practiced for almost half a century is a joke.  And I've
also just been enlightened that all of the members of my shul are jokes
too.  Damn, I've just come to realize that even my Rabbi is a joke.  (Well,
you may have a point there -- he is pretty funny.)  I'd like to go ask my
grandparents about this, but, alas, I can't.  See, 3/4 of them never quite
made it out of the camps alive.  So in their absense, I am ever so grateful
that you have chosen to explain my life to me.

I do have a question, though -- actually, two.

First, are you Orthodox?  I would not dream of presuming about you, even
though you seem to know all about me.

Second, do you believe that there is only one true flavor of Christianity,
or are you more tolerant of your Christian friends?  If there is only one
true Christianity, btw, please be so kind as let the world know what it is.

-Jim, the kind of pregnant conservative Jew, who knows full well how to
lead a Seder.

From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Nov  5 09:02:14 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:02:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Final Call for Papers
Message-ID: 

--- begin forwarded text

Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:23:39 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: online.offshore.com.ai: list set sender to
fc98-request at offshore.com.ai using -f
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:18:09 +0100 (MET)
From: Ray Hirschfeld 
To: R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Final Call for Papers
Resent-From: fc98 at offshore.com.ai
X-Mailing-List:  archive/latest
X-Loop: fc98 at offshore.com.ai
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: fc98-request at offshore.com.ai

		      Financial Cryptography '98
		   Second International Conference
		 February 23-26, 1998, Anguilla, BWI
			FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS

General Information:

Financial Cryptography '98 (FC98) is a conference on the security of
digital financial transactions.  Meetings alternate between the island
of Anguilla in the British West Indies and other locations.  This
second meeting will be held in Anguilla on February 23-26, 1998.  FC98
aims to bring together persons involved in both the financial and data
security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas.

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including

    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility
    Authentication                          Home Banking
    Communication Security                  Identification
    Conditional Access                      Implementations
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability

Instructions for Authors:

Send a cover letter and 12 copies of an extended abstract to be
received by November 17, 1997 (or postmarked by November 7, 1997 and
sent via airmail) to the Program Chair at the address given below.

The extended abstract (a short draft of the full paper, typically 10
pages in length) should start with the title, the names of the
authors, and an abstract followed by a succinct statement appropriate
for a non-specialist reader specifying the subject addressed, its
background, the main achievements, and their significance to financial
data security.  Submissions are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of
12pt type.  Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to
authors no later than January 12, 1998.

Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will
be presented at the conference.

Proceedings:

Proceedings of the conference will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.
Instructions and deadlines for submission of final papers will be sent
later to authors of accepted papers.

Rump Session:

In addition to the regular conference program, a rump session will be
held to provide an opportunity for less formal presentations.
Although the rump session will be organized during the conference
itself, any advance proposals may be sent to the Program Co-Chair at
the email address given below.  Rump session contributions will not
appear in the conference proceedings.

Stipends:

A very limited number of stipends may be available to those unable to
obtain funding to attend the conference.  Students whose papers are
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to
apply if such assistance is needed.  Requests for stipends should be
addressed to one of the General Chairs.

Registration:

Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Anguilla itself will follow in a separate general announcement.  There
are special reduced registration rates for full-time academics and
students.  Further information about registration is available online
via the URL listed below.

Workshop:

A workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software development
experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with
FC98, to be held during the week following the conference.  Further
information about the workshop is available online via the URL listed
below.  For information about workshop registration, please contact
one of the General Chairs.

Special Attraction:

On Thursday, February 26, 1998, there will be a total eclipse of the
sun.  The narrow zone of 100% totality will pass just south of
Anguilla, and there should be an excellent view of the eclipse from
the conference site.

Send Submissions to:

Rafael Hirschfeld
FC98 Program Chair
CWI
Kruislaan 413
1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
email: ray at cwi.nl
phone: +31 20 592 4169
fax: +31 20 592 4199

Send Rump Session Contributions to:

Matthew Franklin
FC98 Program Co-Chair
email: franklin at research.att.com

Program Committee:

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY, USA

General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rah at shipwright.com
Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI
   email: vince at offshore.com.ai

Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA
   email: julie at sneaker.net

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA
   email: iang at cs.berkeley.edu

Financial Cryptography '98 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

FC98 is sponsored by:
RSA Data Security Inc. 
C2NET, Inc. 
Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, Anguilla 
Offshore Information Services 
e$ 

Those interested in becoming a sponsor of FC98 or in purchasing
exhibit space, please contact the Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager.

A copy of this call for papers as well as other information about the
conference will be available at URL http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98.

--- end forwarded text

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: 

From ronc at deming.com  Tue Nov  4 17:19:40 1997
From: ronc at deming.com (Ron Craswell)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:40 +0800
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: 

On Tuesday, November 04, 1997 7:23 AM, 
William H. Geiger III [SMTP:whgiii at invweb.net] wrote:
> 
> To create an S/MIME compliant application one MUST implement RC2/40 and
> one MUST pay RSA to do so!!

Just to set things a little straight, RSA posted an internet draft
describing the RC2 algorithm (draft-rivest-rc2desc) on June 23 of this
year.  RSA has maintained trademark rights to the _name_ "RC2" but
you're free to implement the algorithm and call it "RC2 compatible" and
pay RSA nothing.

> This is the BIG difference between S/MIME and Open-PGP. In Open-PGP there
> is no MUST to implemnet weak crypto. In Open-PGP there is no MUST to
> implement propritary algoritms.

The other big difference is that you are comparing something that exists
with something that doesn't.  In order to level the playing field, let's
compare two things that don't exist -- OpenPGP and S/MIME v3.

The current intent for S/MIME v3 is that the only MUST algorithm set is
DH / El Gamal / 3DES for encryption and DH / DSS for signatures. All
free, all strong (in theory ).

> I think that this should be simple enough for anyone here to understand.

I think that this should be simple enough for anyone here to understand.

--
Ron Craswell
Worldtalk Corp.

From mack97 at erols.com  Tue Nov  4 17:19:48 1997
From: mack97 at erols.com (A. C. Szul)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:48 +0800
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103220718.00c60100@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <34600224.46B4@erols.com>

Colin A. Reed wrote:
> 
> I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
> promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
> monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
> now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
> Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
> children the truth instead of made up fantasies.  Unreasonable fear is very
> harmful to anyone's mental health, especially children.
--------------------->snip>------------------------

"Fear can only prevail when victims are ignorant of the facts." - Thomas
Jefferson

-A
http://www.erols.com/mack97
"The sharpest tool in the shed." -- anonymous

From jlhoffm at ibm.net  Tue Nov  4 17:19:53 1997
From: jlhoffm at ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:53 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <345FC025.852@ibm.net>

Jesus Christ wrote:
> 
> Jodi "I'm not *really* a Jew, but I play one on the InterNet" Hoffman
> wrote:
> > TruthMonger wrote:
> > 
> 
> > Monger:
> > Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> > By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> > #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
> >
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> 
> Jodi,
>   As you already know, I have been on extended leave from the world
> for some time, having gone to visit my Father, to prepare for taking
> over the family business.
>   I've been catching up on my reading, in preparation for my return
> in the near future, and I came across a book, "The Jesus Principle,"
> which claimed that the Christian Coalition and the self-proclaimed
> Moral Majority were making plans to launch a secret assault on the
> electorate, pushing their hidden agendas while covering up the true
> source of their Christian propaganda.
>   Naturally, I laughed this off as ridiculous, but I seem to be
> encountering more and more evidence of this indeed being the case.
> 
>   I am particularly perturbed by those who are doing a very, very
> bad job of disguising their true intentions, goals, their hidden
> connections and secret agendas.
>   In an increasingly InterNet savy world, no one who is paying
> attention is going to miss the fact that your webspace is on
> The Christian Interactive Network, which goes to great lengths
> to make certain that those who visit their web site are made
> aware that the CIN "is a 501 C (3) Nonprofit Ministry", and that
> "All donations are tax exempt," so that contribitors can shift
> the tax burden to non-Christians while using their own tax-exempt
> money to support Christian political agendas under the guise of
> religion.
> 
>   If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
> that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
>   {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
>    Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}
> 
> Love,
>  ~JC~
> "Yes I _do_ *'love'* the little children." ==============
You're a bright one, aren't you?  
Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
and trouble to write so damn much.....
CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
think that was very generous of them, don't you?

Bracing For Your Next Flame...
Jodi
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

From lizard at mrlizard.com  Tue Nov  4 17:27:42 1997
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:27:42 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971104170109.00c98970@dnai.com>

At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>You're a bright one, aren't you?  
>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
>think that was very generous of them, don't you?

So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

From hayden at phoenix.net  Tue Nov  4 17:40:58 1997
From: hayden at phoenix.net (hayden at phoenix.net)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:40:58 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <345F1DC1.3AC6@phoenix.net>

I want to make a short comment-
First of all,
most of the Christians I know --in fact all-
dont use this kind of profanity that Jodi is using.
So I would not label her a "religous righter"
All this labeling of RRs and fundamentalists has to stop.
I believe in a fairly  literal interpretation of the bible(Lets not get into that) but--
I dont fit in your jar of fundamentalism and Jodi doesnt fit in mine--
Stereotypes of RRs are inaccurate as a whole.

You guys are preaching Free speech and acceptance and equality-
yet you are guilty of the very sins of hate  which you condemn others of.

:-)

BTW-
I found the mockery of Jesus offensive.

I am looking forward to some more posts on cyber stuff.
Before we got off on this tangent I was learning faster from this list about the net 
and its possibilities than I could ever teach myself.
Thanks!

From remailer at htp.org  Tue Nov  4 17:44:32 1997
From: remailer at htp.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:44:32 +0800
Subject: Forging your return address.
In-Reply-To: <345F5723.44A3@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <19971105012501.13508.qmail@nsm.htp.org>

>Sympatico Admin wrote:
>> Hi Larry,
      ^^^^^
Eek!  The snakes of Medusa?!!

From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Tue Nov  4 18:00:59 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:00:59 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <199711041609.QAA03086@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 ichudov at algebra.com wrote:

> This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> after baiting you so successfully.
> 
> I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> what she wrote, seriously.
> 
> 

I don't care, as long as she keeps writing. I love it when she talks 
dirty. There aren't many web sites dedicated to abnormal marsupial 
lifestyles, so I have to get my fun where I can.  Since my parents 
have installed NetNanny on my TRS80, thre's not much left for me.

OTOH, it might just be Toto sending another forge, trying to convince Tim 
May that Toto is actually Anita Bryant.

r.w.

From nobody at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Nov  4 18:18:16 1997
From: nobody at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:18:16 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: 

Adam Back writes:

> People copy commercial software all the time.  I suspect only some
> small fraction of personal use software is ever paid for.  Companies
> are less likely to do this

Companies do it because the boss can instruct the underlings to
do multi installs and then deny he did so.  Doesn't work on
pig-headed "Can I have that in writing" types (like me).

> One idea which I did like was the open bidding for a product to be
> developed, people interested in the feature or product pay how much it
> is worth to them up front, developers bid to take the job on.  After
> it's done the software is freeware.  Supporting ideas discussed before
> on this topic are that first to complete gets paid, or lowest bidder
> presents completion bond, and that there are independent aribitrators
> checking quality.

> There was someone who posted to the list that he was going to set this
> up.  He even purchased the domain name if I recall.  What happened,
> did anything come of it?

Bounty Software Group (BOUNTY3-DOM)
   818 West Sunnyside, Apt 3b.
   Chicago, IL 60640
   US

   Domain Name: BOUNTY.ORG

   Administrative Contact:
      Petro, Christopher  (CP588)  petro at SUBA.COM
      312.784.0099
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Strasheim, Alex R.  (AS55)  alex at SUBA.COM
      (312) 929-8008
   Billing Contact:
      Petro, Christopher  (CP588)  petro at SUBA.COM
      312.784.0099

   Record last updated on 23-Nov-96.
   Record created on 23-Nov-96.
   Database last updated on 4-Nov-97 05:29:24 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   SUBA01.SUBA.COM		198.87.202.2
   BIRD.SUBA.COM		198.87.202.33

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 18:45:15 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:45:15 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called, etc. etc.
Message-ID: <199711050210.DAA18934@basement.replay.com>

Lizard wrote:
>At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>>You're a bright one, aren't you?  
>>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
>>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
>>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
>>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
>>think that was very generous of them, don't you?
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
>pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
convenient.

If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
bottom-feeders taxed into penury.

From bs at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 19:14:05 1997
From: bs at dev.null (Bruce Schneier)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:14:05 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711042146.QAA02613@alcove.wittsend.com>
Message-ID: <345FD534.3258@dev.null>

Michael H. Warfield wrote:
>         Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
> So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
> them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
> from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
> point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
> whatever they are telling us. 

Help!!!
They are holding me hostage at syncrypt.com and using my name
to promote their product.

Please! Believe me! This is not just another unclever trick by
that forging rat bastard from sk.sympatico.ca.

Bruce

From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Nov  4 19:14:16 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:14:16 +0800
Subject: INFO-RUSS: POLITICAL PRISONERS DAY (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711050255.UAA17111@einstein.ssz.com>

Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu Tue Nov  4 20:48:11 1997
Message-Id: <9711042026.AA14816 at smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Precedence: bulk
From: info-russ 
To: info-russ at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Date: Tus, 4 Nov 1997 14:05:10 +0100
Subject: INFO-RUSS: POLITICAL PRISONERS DAY

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Reprinted from RIA-Novosti
which adopted it from
Rossiiskiye Vesti, October 30

OCTOBER 30: POLITICAL PRISONERS DAY

        On October 30 Russia marks the Day of Memory of the
     Victims of Political Persecution Campaigns. We must
     admit that we lost the fervour with which we denounced
     the political butchers in the early 1990s, and the
     sympathy we felt for the victims of the Bolshevik
     regime. We tend to repeat the phrase which was popular
     in Brezhnev's time: "Persecution campaigns were evil,
     but not everything was plain black or white then." Why
     do we do this? Who is responsible for this drawback of
     public conscience? Our analyst, Anatoly GUBANOV,
     discusses this problem with famous scientist and
     politician Alexander YAKOVLEV, Chairman of the
     Presidential Commission on the Rehabilitation of
     the Victims of Political Persecution Campaigns.

  Question: The attitude to persecution campaigns has
changed in society and in some other terms. For example, on
October 30 the staff of the State Duma decided to hold
celebrations, with a concert and expensive gifts, to be given
above all to those who were responsible for the storming of the
city hall and the Ostankino TV centre. What kind of day of the
victims of the Bolshevik regime is that?
  Answer: There is nothing new in this. I remember that in
Soviet times, when the rehabilitation of the victims of
political persecution campaigns was barely launched, acts of
crawling sabotage were staged in the Politburo.
  Question: We are approaching the 80th celebration of the
October revolution. What will happen on that day?
  Answer: Instead of commemorating victims and repenting
sins, many people will "celebrate the red-letter day." Why?
Because nobody has provided a clear-cut and unambiguous
assessment of the past yet. I have spoken about this problem
before. I understand that this is difficult to accept, but
there was no revolution, not to mention a great socialist one.
What happened then?
  The power was lying on the autumn sidewalk. Nobody
governed the country. The army was ruined. The shop shelves
were empty and the people held demonstrations and plundered
bread and wine shops. A group of Bolsheviks entered the Smolny
Palace. Antonov-Ovseyenko arrested the ministers of the
Provisional Government.
  There was no resistance, just as there was no salvo from
the Avrora cruiser. Some shots were fired, but only into the
ceiling of the Smolny Palace. Later the storming of the palace
was presented as something heroic, following the scenario used
for the storming of the Bastille, which was not stormed since
nobody resisted its occupation. At that time there were only
seven prisoners in the Bastille - several crooks, two madmen
and one pervert. They were guarded by a group of invalids.
  Question: Does your commission encounter any difficulties
in its work? Can you answer this question honestly?
  Answer: Honestly? We submitted to the President two draft
decrees on the children of the Gulag and activists of socialist
and other similar parties, exterminated by the Bolsheviks. They
have been shelved. Not long ago I met with Valentin Yumashev,
head of the Presidential Administration, and asked him about
the fate of these drafts. He showed certain interest in the
problem, but it turned out that nobody had reported to him on
it. I know that bureaucrats, taking cover behind the idea of
accord and reconciliation, are prepared to gladly forget about
any crimes of the past.
  Our bureaucrat is a very interesting person. He trims his
sails to the wind: when there is no demand for something, he
will do nothing. Besides, a bureaucrat has a natural liking for
dictatorship. As a result, we get a terrible thing:
dictatorship by bureaucrats.
  There are also problems with archives. The law is the law,
but practical matters are something different. For example, our
commission is still waiting for the Office of the Prosecutor
General to provide the verdict on the case of Beria. They use
different pretexts to bide their time. We will have to
translate from English some so-called secret documents, since
they have long been sold abroad.

   4Russia in Facts and Figures 5
  In the first few years after the Bolsheviks came to power,
they persecuted peasants who took part in anti-governmental
action, workers who went on strikes, Cossacks, members of
socialist parties and anarchist organisations, the clergy, and
the seamen who took part in the 1921 Kronstadt "revolt."
  The authorities "neutralised" 16,000 rebel peasants,
confiscated about 500 homesteads and burned down 250 peasant
houses when crushing the revolt of the Tambov peasants in June
1921. Similar "measures" were taken when the Bolsheviks put out
other revolts of peasants, which rocked the Don, Western
Siberia, the Volga Region, Karelia and other regions of the
country in 1918-22.
  in 1921 through 1953, the VChK, OGPU, NKVD and MVD
agencies persecuted 4,060,306 people for political reasons.
Their fate was sealed outside courts. As many as 799,455 were
sentenced to capital punishment (shooting). The tidal wave of
persecutions swept the country in 1937-38, when 1.3 million
were sentenced to hard labour under the notorious Article 58
("counterrevolutionary crimes"), and more than a half of them
(682,000) were shot. At least 40 million were sentenced to
different prison terms in 1923-53. As many as 2.6 million
languished in prisons in 1950, and another 2.3 million lived in
special settlements (data of the late 1940s).

  Persecution Campaigns in the Countryside
  Over 500,000 peasants were persecuted in the late 1920s
and early 1930s. In 1930-31, a total of 1.8 million members of
peasant families were herded into special camps guarded by
special garrisons, without the right to leave them. In all,
over 1 million peasant homesteads were recognised as belonging
to kulaks (well-off peasants) during the collectivisation
campaign, and nearly 5 million peasants were sent into exile.

  Persecution of the Clergy
  The year 1918 was marked by the execution of 3,000
clergymen. Another 500-odd were shot in 1928, and 2,500 in
1930. As many as 136,900 Orthodox clergymen were persecuted in
1937, 85,300 of whom were shot. In 1938-41, the church lost
another 38,900 men, 36,400 of whom were executed. The
persecution of the clergy continued well into the 1970s. By
1976, the number of dioceses in the country dropped to 7,038
(there were 48,000 in 1918). In all, about 200,000 clergymen
suffered at the hands of Bolsheviks since the 1917 revolution.

  Persecution of the Military
  The trial of Tukhachevsky, Yakir and other military
leaders in June 1937 marked the beginning of mass persecutions
in the army, which affected over 40,000 servicemen. In all, the
army was "cleansed" of 45% of commanders who were accused of
political disloyalty. Those who had been unfortunate enough to
be encircled or taken prisoner during the 1941-45 war, and
repatriated Soviet  citizens were severely persecuted during
the war and in the first few years after it. In all, 994,000
servicemen were persecuted during the war, 157,000 of whom were
shot.

  Ethnic Persecution Campaigns
  The forceful movement of whole ethnic groups began before
the 1941-45 war. Poles, Kurds, Koreans, Buryats and other
ethnic groups fell victim to them. Since the mid-1940s to 1961,
a total of 3.5 million members of ethnic groups were
persecuted. The Germans were forced to leave their homes in the
Volga Region, Moscow and Moscow Region and other areas at
gunpoint. The Ingush, Chechens, Kalmyks, Crimean Tartars and
other ethnic groups were deported. In all, 14 ethnic groups
were deported fully, and 48, partially.
  The slightest signs of anti-governmental sentiments were
mercilessly crushed after the war, for example the workers'
demonstrations in Novocherkassk in 1962, when the workers
protested against price rises and simultaneous cuts in their
wages.
  Dissidents were the main victims of persecution campaigns
in the 1960s-1980s. In 1967 through 1971, the KGB "revealed"
over 3,000 groups of "politically dangerous nature," with
13,500 members of these groups persecuted. Since the mid-1950s,
the KGB widely used psychiatrists to combat dissent. According
to the 1986 information, 5,329 dissidents were the inmates of
the Kazan, Leningrad, Orel, Sychevka, Chernyakhovsk and
Blagoveshchensk psychiatric clinics of the USSR Interior
Ministry. The number of "mental cases" in the Leningrad
hospital of the Interior Ministry went up from 324 to 1,181
in 1956-86.
========================================================

From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 19:21:30 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:21:30 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <345FDF5E.658A@dev.null>

Rabid Wombat wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 ichudov at algebra.com wrote:
> > This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> > after baiting you so successfully.
> >
> > I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> > what she wrote, seriously.

> I don't care, as long as she keeps writing. I love it when she talks
> dirty. There aren't many web sites dedicated to abnormal marsupial
> lifestyles, so I have to get my fun where I can.  Since my parents
> have installed NetNanny on my TRS80, thre's not much left for me.
> 
> OTOH, it might just be Toto sending another forge, trying to convince Tim
> May that Toto is actually Anita Bryant.

I am *really* Rabid Wombat...spam me unmercifully!

TruthBat

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 19:25:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:25:14 +0800
Subject: Higher Education
Message-ID: <199711050259.DAA24595@basement.replay.com>

>From News of the Weird:

* Five third-graders were suspended from school in April in Eaton,
Colo., for drug use.  Not only were they caught smoking marijuana
during recess, but they had rolled the joints using pieces of paper
torn from their homework.

From tm at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 19:25:33 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:25:33 +0800
Subject: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
In-Reply-To: <199711042348.XAA04981@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <345FDE65.62BE@dev.null>

> ======================================================================
> 1. Are you using pgp5.x?

  Yeah...you got a problem with that?

> If answer to 1 is NO skip to question 4

  And if I _don't_?

>   2. have you placed your pgp5.x key on the public keyservers?

  Yeah. They sent it back and told me to fuck off.

>   3. Were you using an earlier version of pgp before getting pgp5.x

  6.0. I'm from the future.

>   If answer to 3 is NO skip to 6

  Hey, pal. Quit ordering me around!

> 4. Is your pgp2.x (or 4.x) key on a public key server

  Yes,  but it's under _your_ name.

> 5. What software did you use to put your pgp2.x (or 4.x) key on the
>    keyserver?  Was it pgp5.x, or was it some other software (eg web
>    browser, emailed key submission etc)?

  I put it on using their root account. They need better security

> 6. How many people do you communicate with using PGP?

  None, really. I usually just babble incoherently.

> 7. Of those how many are using pgp2.x (or pgp4.x)

  None. Do you think that is maybe why no one ever replies?

> 8. and how many are using pgp5.x

  How the fuck would I know if they never write (Adam) back?

> 9. how many of the pgp5.x users had never used PGP before pgp5.x
>    became available

  Like, I'm _sleeping_ with everyone I write to? How long till I
get to the 'smart' questions?

> 10. How many of the people who use pgp2.x (answer to 7) are
>     cypherpunks?

  Only the guy in the next cell.

> 11. How many of the people who use pgp5.x (answer to 8) are
>     cypherpunks?

  Only the ones promoting it in anonymous posts to the list.

> ======================================================================

> Thanks for your time. 

  That's more apprecitation than the Warden ever expressed.

CellMateMonger

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 19:26:06 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:26:06 +0800
Subject: Digital Signatures Come of Age
Message-ID: <199711050301.EAA24793@basement.replay.com>

* San Francisco "conceptual artist" Guy Overfelt, 29, was
prominently, if not favorably, reviewed for two recent projects:  For
a show at the Refusalon gallery in San Francisco, he called 2,000
toll-free numbers to request that information be sent to the gallery. 
(That's it.)  For a show at New York City's White Columns Gallery
in the winter, he exhibited two 1,000-name mailing lists of art
collectors, one for the East Coast and one for the West Coast. 
(Overfelt offered for sale a "signed" edition of the mailing lists, on
PC and Mac diskettes, for $20 each.)

From tj at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 19:26:23 1997
From: tj at dev.null (Thomas Jefferson)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:26:23 +0800
Subject: FUD
Message-ID: <345FD249.8D0@dev.null>

"Fear can only prevail when victims are ignorant of the facts." 
- Thomas Jefferson

From tp at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 19:34:39 1997
From: tp at dev.null (The Pervert)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:34:39 +0800
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <345FD3A3.2677@dev.null>

Declan McCullagh wrote:

> "In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
> explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
> period."

Gee, I wonder who put the 'other' 410 on the InterNet.

The Pervert
"I thought I was the *only* one doing that shit."

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 19:34:51 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:34:51 +0800
Subject: Forcing someone to mow your lawn, in the commission of a crime...
Message-ID: <199711050301.EAA24892@basement.replay.com>

* In July, police in Lexington, Ky., were searching for Delbert
Buttrey, 47, who they believe is the man who kidnapped a transient
couple from Indiana, took them to an isolated spot, and forced
them to perform oral sex on him while Buttrey's girlfriend snapped
photographs.  After that, according to police, Buttrey took the
couple home with him and forced the man to mow his lawn.

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 20:09:34 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:09:34 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks Physical Meetings...The Rest of the Story
Message-ID: <199711050303.EAA25015@basement.replay.com>

>From News of the CypherPunks:

* In March, a 36-year-old man choked to death on a 6-inch tropical
fish he had popped into his mouth while showing off for friends in
Bayou Vista, La.  And in April, a 12-year-old boy was electrocuted
in East Palo Alto, Calif., after he climbed a high-voltage
transmission tower in the rain, dared his three companions to join
him, and then accidentally touched a wire.  And in July, a 22-year-
old man, described by his grandmother as "smart in school," died in
a bungee-cord accident on a railroad trestle in Fairfax County, Va. 
(Said a police spokesman:  "The length of the cord that he had
assembled was greater than the distance between the trestle and the
ground.")

From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov  4 20:10:18 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:10:18 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <345FC025.852@ibm.net>
Message-ID: 

At 6:01 PM -0700 11/4/97, Lizard wrote:
>At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>>You're a bright one, aren't you?
>>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time
>>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for
>>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.
>>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I
>>think that was very generous of them, don't you?
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
>pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
forms.

(I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
of truth.)

Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
conform...but such is life in many ways.

The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
plays.

Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov  4 20:10:51 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:10:51 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050210.DAA18934@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

At 7:10 PM -0700 11/4/97, Anonymous wrote:

>More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
>therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
>that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
>convenient.
>
>If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
>for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
>bottom-feeders taxed into penury.

Nonsense. And a dangerous course.

One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
particularly strong opinion on either option.

But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
opinions expressed by a church!

One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30 years.
Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism "into
penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist Entity.

Think about it.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From js at dev.null  Tue Nov  4 20:14:31 1997
From: js at dev.null (Jesus Christ)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:14:31 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <345FE31E.6C30@dev.null>

hayden at phoenix.net wrote:

> I found the mockery of Jesus offensive.

  Me too!

~J H.Fucking. C~
"So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them,
 'A prophet is not without honour except in his own
       country and on his own mailing list.'  "

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 20:19:04 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:19:04 +0800
Subject: If it wasn't for the Internet, you might never know this... (WAS: Your Tax Dollars At Work...)
Message-ID: <199711050303.EAA24990@basement.replay.com>

>From News of the Weird:

* The February Scientific American reported on how conservation
biologist Joel Berger (University of Nevada at Reno) field-studies
moose, which are notoriously unfriendly to humans.  Berger needed
to be able to hurl fresh bear and wolf dung accurately enough to
assure that a moose immediately smelled it, to see if it made the
moose fearful or aggressive.  To be able to get that close to a
moose, he engaged a designer who worked on the movie "Star
Wars" to make a moose suit, which worked so well that Berger said
he spent much of his time in the suit worrying about being
mounted.

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 20:43:13 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:43:13 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
Message-ID: <199711050422.FAA04318@basement.replay.com>

Tim May wrote:
> At 7:10 PM -0700 11/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
> >therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
> >that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
> >convenient.
> >
> >If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
> >for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
> >bottom-feeders taxed into penury.

> Nonsense. And a dangerous course.
> 
> One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
> particularly strong opinion on either option.
> 
> But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
> opinions expressed by a church!

  I feel that Tim is correct, in terms of "opinions," but the Christian
political agenda goes beyond 'opinions' and into the realm of political
activism which is regulated by law.
  It is a fact that the Moral Majority/Christian Right/Felons For Jesus,
etc., make no bones about using their tax-deductible resources to mount
political campaigns that illegally skirt the rules pertaining to the
direct support of political parties and candidates.

  If the Commie Chincs brunching at the Whithouse and sleeping in the
Lincoln bedroom tried to excuse their illegally made payoffs to the
current administration by getting a glazed look in their eye and
speaking about answering to 'a higher power', the press and the
citizens would lynch them.
  Certainly, the Christian political movement is no 'dirtier' or more
criminal than the rest of the Fools On the (Capitol) Hill, but they are
all the more hypocritical for claiming the higher moral ground in their
illegal activities.

Criminals is criminals...

JHFCMonger

From mhw at wittsend.com  Tue Nov  4 21:00:14 1997
From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:00:14 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <345FD534.3258@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711050436.XAA05517@alcove.wittsend.com>

Bruce Schneier enscribed thusly:
> Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> >         Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
> > So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
> > them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
> > from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
> > point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
> > whatever they are telling us. 

> Help!!!
> They are holding me hostage at syncrypt.com and using my name
> to promote their product.

	:-) :-) :-)

	Ok ok...  I was just making the point that they were claiming one
thing and we hadn't heard you chime in yet.  I yield.  :-)

> Please! Believe me! This is not just another unclever trick by
> that forging rat bastard from sk.sympatico.ca.

	Snicker...  I had "kinda" assumed (remember the spelling) that if
someone had been making baseless claims about your participation that you
would have been off da pad at warp one.  Just checking to make sure and
keep everyone honest (when was the LAST time I dropped out of lurk mode
on this list???).

> Bruce

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw at WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 21:00:22 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:00:22 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
Message-ID: <199711050439.FAA06121@basement.replay.com>

Tim May wrote:
> Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
> school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
> prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
> anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
> conform...but such is life in many ways.

  And then the rest of the children were made to stand at attention
while
the Jews, the Buddhists, the Muslims, et al, performed their own
religious
rituals, right?

> The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
> Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
> activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
> in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
> plays.

  Big news, Tim...non-violent discrimination against a particular 
religious faction is not quite the same as freedom from religious 
persecution.
  i.e. - Not kicking Seth's Christkilling little butt is not the 
equivalent of letting him engage in his religious activities in 
school just as the Christian kids do.

  Still looking for your shoes? Check under the bed...

~JC~

From emc at wire.insync.net  Tue Nov  4 21:05:42 1997
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:05:42 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711050458.WAA10404@wire.insync.net>

Tim May Writes:

> Nonsense. And a dangerous course.

> One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
> particularly strong opinion on either option. 

> But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on
> the opinions expressed by a church!

> One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
> anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30
> years.  Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism
> "into penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist
> Entity. 

> Think about it. 

I have no objection to churches holding opinions.  However, when they
become a tax-exempt mechanism for the illegal injection of money into
political campaigns, taxing is the minimally appropriate response.

There is a big difference between saying "Our religion disapproves of
abortion", and saying "Vote for candidate Y and attend the big rally we
are paying for out of last week's poorbox donations." 

The Christian right wing has made a mockery of the separation of church
and state in its conspicuous and direct support of particular political
candidates.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 21:14:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:14:24 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711050452.FAA07439@basement.replay.com>

Tim May wrote:

>
>Nonsense. And a dangerous course.
>
>One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
>particularly strong opinion on either option.
>
>But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
>opinions expressed by a church!
>
>One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
>anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30 years.
>Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism "into
>penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist Entity.
>
>Think about it.
>
>--Tim May

You should only tax churches who hand out guns instead of bizarre flat
bread and intone "this is my body, use it for target practice".
You should also tax any church where the priests routinely recruit young
boys and tell them anal sex with a priest will get them into heaven.
Also tax any church where the sermon is immediately followed by an orgy.

From mhw at wittsend.com  Tue Nov  4 21:21:45 1997
From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:21:45 +0800
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <345FD534.3258@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711050500.AAA05681@alcove.wittsend.com>

Uhhh....

	Can anyone tell for sure what's up with Bruce...

	After getting this message and responding to it, I dropped a note
over to Bruce's centerpane address...

Bruce Schneier enscribed thusly:
> Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> >         Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
> > So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
> > them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
> > from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
> > point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
> > whatever they are telling us. 

> Help!!!
> They are holding me hostage at syncrypt.com and using my name
> to promote their product.

> Please! Believe me! This is not just another unclever trick by
> that forging rat bastard from sk.sympatico.ca.

> Bruce

	When I forwarded my message to Bruce's address at centerpane
"just to be sure" here is what I got back...

> From schneier at mixer.visi.com  Tue Nov  4 23:46:24 1997
> Return-Path: 
> Received: from mixer.visi.com (schneier at mixer.visi.com [204.73.178.1])
> 	by alcove.wittsend.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05599
> 	for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:46:05 -0500
> Received: (from schneier at localhost) by mixer.visi.com (8.8.6/8.7.5) id WAA05081 for mhw at alcove.wittsend.com; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:45:43 -0600 (CST)
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:45:43 -0600 (CST)
> Posted-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:45:43 -0600 (CST)
> Message-Id: <199711050445.WAA05081 at mixer.visi.com>
> From: schneier at visi.com (via the vacation program)
> Subject: Schneier is missing; last seen headed for Beijing
> Status: RO
> 
> I will be away from my email until Saturday, 11/15. I won't be taking
> a computer with me, so I won't have any email access until I return.
> If you really need to get in touch with me, try leaving a voice 
> message at 612 823 1098.  And be patiend.
> 
> Information on Counterpane Systems consulting business, the 
> corrected 5th printing of Applied Cryptography 2nd Edition,
> my new book (The Electronic Privacy Papers), my S/MIME exploit,
> the PasswordSafe program, and a lot of other things can be found
> on my webiste:
> 
> 	http://www.counterpane.com/
> 
> Thanks,
> Bruce

	Ok...  If he didn't take a computer with him then he just gave
new meaning to sending a message from @dev.null...  Yeah right.  Got about
a week and a half till he's back, according to this...

	Is it Bruce or is it Memorex...  On the Internet...  Who can tell?

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw at WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 21:28:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:28:46 +0800
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711050515.GAA10042@basement.replay.com>

Tim May wrote:
>There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
>forms.
>
>(I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
>of truth.)
>
>Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
>school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
>prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
>anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
>conform...but such is life in many ways.
>
>The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
>Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
>activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
>in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
>plays.
>
>Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
>withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
>kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

Huh? Since when has school prayer had anything to do with religion?
Its about indoctrination. If you force someone to say something day
after day, or even hear it day afterday, after a while it stops
representing a idea, and starts representing a truth. The pledge of
allegiance is a prime example. 

Ask a school age kid "does america have liberty and justice for all?"
and they will quote back without thinking the pledge of allegiance 

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god
indivisible with liberty and justice for all"

Long after they stop forcing you to say it you still remember it. You 
still believe that america is "a nation under god" and has "liberty and
justice for all" whether or not there is any evidence at all to support 
it. That is the beauty of it, there need be no evidence of liberty at 
all just like there is no evidence that terrorists and kiddie porn
collectors are running rampant on the internet. Just like there is no
evidence that the economy is worse than it has ever been. Just like 
there is no evidence that 2/3s of the crime in america is committed by
teenagers.Just like there is no evidence that you have a 50% chance of
being killed when you leave your house. People hear these "facts" day 
after day on tv but are never offered any proof but im sure if you ask most
people "how is the economy" they will say "worse than it has ever been".

Say something 3 times and it becomes true. 

forget my last post about only taxing some churches, tax them all.

--bucky

From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov  4 21:31:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:31:55 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050422.FAA04318@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

At 9:22 PM -0700 11/4/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  I feel that Tim is correct, in terms of "opinions," but the Christian
>political agenda goes beyond 'opinions' and into the realm of political
>activism which is regulated by law.

It shouldn't be. "Political activism" is speech. And "Congress shall make
no law...."

The First doesn't say that Congress gets to restrict some kinds of
"political activism" (assuming it is speech, writing, etc., and not
invading property, extortion, etc.).

This is why "campaign spending limits" are thought by many constitutional
scholars and all libertarians to be unconstitutional. If Bill Gates wants
to spend his money talking about how great gun control is, no one can stop
him.

(The current "campaign financing laws" are already afoul of the First. They
may eventually be challenged and, I hope, struck down.)

Needless to say, telling churches what they can say and cannot say is a
slam dunk violation of the First.

>  It is a fact that the Moral Majority/Christian Right/Felons For Jesus,
>etc., make no bones about using their tax-deductible resources to mount
>political campaigns that illegally skirt the rules pertaining to the
>direct support of political parties and candidates.

So? Then change the tax laws for _all_ religions, churches, creeds, and cults.

As for the Christian Right lobbying, what of the Christian *Left* lobbying
for the Sanctuary Movement, the anti-Sandinista side, against the Viet Nam
war, etc.? Those Berrigan brothers and their antiwar rhetoric...surely that
was enough to cause the Catholic Church to be "taxed into penury"? Or the
liberal pinko commie jew Quakers...too bad Nixon wasn't able to shut those
pinko fags down (er, I guess Nixon _was_ a Quaker...never mind).

I think you should see where this is all going. Shut down the Buddhists for
protesting the Viet Nam War. Shut down the Baptists for arguing against
abortion. Where would it end?

Fortunately, we have the First.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From tcmay at got.net  Tue Nov  4 21:39:39 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:39:39 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 9:58 PM -0700 11/4/97, Eric Cordian wrote:

>I have no objection to churches holding opinions.  However, when they
>become a tax-exempt mechanism for the illegal injection of money into
>political campaigns, taxing is the minimally appropriate response.

Taxation or not taxing is not a favor I entrust to government. This is the
way countries with state religions favor the state religion over other
religions.

Fortunately, we do things differently in this country.

>There is a big difference between saying "Our religion disapproves of
>abortion", and saying "Vote for candidate Y and attend the big rally we
>are paying for out of last week's poorbox donations."

How a church spends its money is not for government to approve of or
disapprove of.

>The Christian right wing has made a mockery of the separation of church
>and state in its conspicuous and direct support of particular political
>candidates.

The "separation of church and state" refers to what power the state may
have over the practice of religion, the establishment of a state religion,
etc.. It has nothing whatsoever to do with stopping the Amish, say, from
voting in blocs for various causes.

See my other post on this topic. The Christian *LEFT* has been active for
several decades in opposing U.S. involvement in wars, in aiding and
abetting draft dodgers, in supporting Marxist regimes in Latin America, in
establishing the Sanctuary Movement, in sabotaging ICBM production
facilities, and in urging churchgoers to vote the agenda being pushed.

So?

Tax all churches or tax no churches, but don't give government the power to
decide if a religion is "worthy" of special tax treatment.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 22:06:44 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:06:44 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
Message-ID: <199711050535.GAA12187@basement.replay.com>

Anonymous wrote:

>Also tax any church where the sermon is immediately followed by an orgy.

Well, so much for the Church of the SubGenius. Of course, they already
weren't tax-exempt, so it's kind of a moot point. The orgies are worth
it. though.

Can we at least tax the Scientologists, too? All that Reactive Mind shit
makes me puke.

JR"B"D

From frantz at netcom.com  Tue Nov  4 22:30:08 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:30:08 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050422.FAA04318@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

At 8:26 PM -0800 11/4/97, Tim May wrote:
>This is why "campaign spending limits" are thought by many constitutional
>scholars and all libertarians to be unconstitutional. If Bill Gates wants
>to spend his money talking about how great gun control is, no one can stop
>him.

You might be able to define campaign spending limits in terms of
qualifications for the job.  (I think it would take a constitutional
amendment for federal office holders).  Then you might see the amusing
sight of, e.g. the anti-Clinton people spending heavily on pro-Clinton TV
spots to force Clinton to be disqualified from the job.

Another way which should appeal to the property owner's rights crowd would
be to say that since the 1034 Communications Act says that the airways
belong to the people (i.e. the government), they may not be used for
political advertising more than 6 weeks before an election.  The spread of
private systems such as cable will frustrate this direction.

Please note, I don't advocate either of these "solutions".  I am just
amused to think about them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Nov  4 22:31:03 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:31:03 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views?
Message-ID: <199711050615.HAA16549@basement.replay.com>

J.F. Christ wrote:

>   I feel that Tim is correct, in terms of "opinions," but the Christian
> political agenda goes beyond 'opinions' and into the realm of political
> activism which is regulated by law.
>   It is a fact that the Moral Majority/Christian Right/Felons For Jesus,
> etc., make no bones about using their tax-deductible resources to mount
> political campaigns that illegally skirt the rules pertaining to the
> direct support of political parties and candidates.

So, perhaps the modern-western idea of separation of Church and State
is based on an unreasonable optimism that such a thing is possible.
Perhaps it's actually more honest to admit that the state will always
reflect the religious framework of the rulers, as (I believe) Muslim
countries tend to do.

Of course, there's no reason to believe that honesty actually
determines social structures, and so one might say that it's just more
useful to _claim_ that church and state are separated.

::Boots

                               Hug an abortionist today!

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 00:15:54 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:15:54 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050535.GAA12187@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711050759.IAA26701@basement.replay.com>

some person wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
>
>>Also tax any church where the sermon is immediately followed by an orgy.
>
>Well, so much for the Church of the SubGenius. Of course, they already
>weren't tax-exempt, so it's kind of a moot point. The orgies are worth
>it. though.
>
>Can we at least tax the Scientologists, too? All that Reactive Mind shit
>makes me puke.
>
>JR"B"D
>
>

You know whats wierd? there are these people that think a virgin gave birth
to a guy, and this guy was the son of god! And get this, he was killed, and
came back to life! They based an entire religion on this!

Its amazing what people will believe. 

--bucky

From Michael.Johnson at mejl.com  Wed Nov  5 00:35:20 1997
From: Michael.Johnson at mejl.com (Mike)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:35:20 +0800
Subject: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105092037.0098a7d0@localhost>

kraiwut at samart.co.th wrote:
>What can I do to make the computer fucking impenetrable at start up? --- to
>the point that they have to ask me for the password or  nothing moves. 

You could try Norton Your Eyes Only. The trial version with domestic
security is floating around as YEOtrial.zip.

Mike.

From holovacsOMIT at idt.net  Wed Nov  5 02:39:40 1997
From: holovacsOMIT at idt.net (aileen holovacs)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:39:40 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <34607414.73E4@idt.net>

Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> 
> Monger:
> 
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.
> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.
> 
>
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.	I have to assume you were not born Jewish, nor converted to 
Judaism. I have yet to meet a Jew w/ such a fundamentalist Christian view 
of the world. If you were indeed born Jewish, I will apologize ahead of 
time and say only that, your education in yiddishkeit(Jewish life) and 
halakhah(Jewish law) must either have been nonexistant, or Lubavich. I 
suspect you consider yourself jewish because you are a jew for jesus. A 
Christian who has decided to adopt jewish tradition and therefore calls 
themself jewish. I bring these points to your attention:

> "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
>ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT." Jews have never been advocates of censorship in any form. A Jews were not 
allowed to act, speak, or pray in WWII Germany, they were sent to death 
instead. Jews are not allowed to worship or read the holy books in 
communist countries. The greatest Jewish leaders through out history, 
read and argued dissenting viewpoints, they did not censor them.Even 
today, Jews take responsibility for their own children, they do not ask 
others to do it for them. The more orthodox place their children in 
private schools at their own expense, and teach their children to stay 
away from non-jews, they don't expect everyone else to bend to their 
views. 

I strongly doubt any Jew would choose use a quote from hitler. 

> Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
>are held up as objects of scorn Why do you use these terms? Why not Rabbis, teachers, and even the Ten 
Commandments? And the term Christ himself????As far as Jews are 
concerned, Jesus was nothing more than a minor prophet. It is upsetting 
that other religion's icons are held in scorn, but this is because we 
respect other people's belief.

>Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
>governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day. 	Yes homosexuality is forbbidden, however, abortion and 
contraception is NOT! Even for the very orthodox, abortion is ALWAYS 
allowed to save a woman's life and in ANY case rape or incest. Among 
non-orthodox Jews, it is allowed if necessary for the sake of the family, 
or for the mental health of the woman. Even among the most orthodox, 
contraception is allowed after the birth of at least 1 male and 1 female 
child, and the sexual act is considered a mandatory act of mutual 
pelasure!
	I think you would find most Jews believe that contempt for 
parents, and lack of respect for adults is a direct result of upbringing, 
not the media or the internet.Jews teach respect by example, including 
respecting their own children. That, plus a healthy dose of jewish guilt. 
Jewish parents hold their children in such high regard, that there is no 
worse feeling than dissapointing your parents.
	While I don't think Jews as a whole hold the government in 
contepmt, they are among the first to say 'question authority'.Look at 
what has happened to us when we don't!(and sometimes even when we do)

>particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
>"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
>pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
>Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
>submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
>showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.	Many Jews are great patrons of the arts. Art is a cultural 
legacy. If it's trash, don't by it or look at it; don't sponsor a museum 
that exhibits that trash, but censor? Never! Even pornography is 
allowable, it is up to the parents to educate the children on these 
matters.

> But they say not
>a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
>in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.	It's called the Tanakh(Old Testament) not the bible. Jews have 
always insisted that their children get a Jewish education as well as an 
ecumenical one. from kindergarten on, Jewish children usually spend hours 
each week in hebrew school learning jewish history, law and culture. You 
cannot be b'nai Mitzvoh unles you go through all this. Even someone who 
converts to Judaism, must study until the Rabbi feels the have learned 
enough, before they can b'nai Mitzvah.

>Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
>person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
>themselves.	Jews take responsibility not just for themselves but for the 
welfare of society, without any other agenda. The Mitzvah(good deed) is 
one of the top 5 most importanat things about being a jew. It means 
giving simply for the sake of others. Children are shown, very early, how 
good it feels to do a mitzvah, and all jews are encouraged to do a 
mitzvah a day. They don't blame  problems on society(as you seem to), nor 
do they expect the government to fix the problem(as you seem to). The 
best way to solve these problems is to offer help freely to resolve the 
problem, Not find a way to place blame(as you seem to). Is pornography 
really the problem, or is it that our youth are out of control and lack 
leadership and role models? Banning dirty words will not keep children 
from learning them. Teaching children how people use them and why they 
are innapropriate will. Teaching "bible" at school will not instill 
morality, teaching by example will. 

>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.	We have learned enough about you, through your messages here and 
you web site, to draw rather strong conclusions.

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that. 	I intensely dislike your views, I don't hate anyone. I feel sorry 
for you, that your lack of education has left you vulnerable to the 
pseudo-science that you quote. It is obvious that you have never had a 
course in statistics, politics and government, sociology, science, ot 
research methods, to name a few. Jewish culture AND religion take great 
pride in holding education as one of the primary foundations of being a 
Jew!

Jew prize knowledge and education. Ideas are things to be nurtured and 
grown, books are things to be cherished and absorbed.The idea of 
censorship is an anathema to the entire culture.

If you were Jewish you would know at least some of this. It makes you and 
your arguments even less credible when you portray yourself as something 
you're not. Let's at least have a little honesty here even if we 
completely disagree on the censorship issue. Khlallah: gey en dregk

Men roybt undz dos lebn un recht             

Derfar vayl mir emes farlangen

Frayhayt, far bafrayt

They steal our lives and our rights,
because of our true desire,
freedom, freedom for everyone    

(from"tortured to death in captivity")
G.A.Machtet, poet
dedicated to student revolutionaries
-- 
Channah beyt Yehudit 
holovacs at idt.net

From Michael.Johnson at mejl.com  Wed Nov  5 03:08:35 1997
From: Michael.Johnson at mejl.com (Mike)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:08:35 +0800
Subject: SMTP Encryption Extension
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971021082737.00928b20@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105115851.0096fe90@localhost>

Eric Murray wrote:
>There's a port defined for SMTP-over-SSL:
>ssmtp           465/tcp    ssmtp
>(from the IANA assigned port numbers document of feb '97)

No, there isn't. The port 465 has been revoked. See
 for the current SMTP encryption
draft. It seems that port 25 will be reused with encryption.

Now, everybody please start implementing this draft and we'll soon have
secure mail. I'm already working on a DOS 8086 version for the HP 200LX.

Mike.

From adam at homeport.org  Wed Nov  5 03:16:15 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:16:15 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711050204.SAA02515@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199711051058.FAA02480@homeport.org>

Adam Back wrote:
| Monty Cantsin writes:

| > We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit that
| > it will be completely unencumbered.
| 
| Sounds maybe worth doing.
| 

Not maybe at all. The IETF will require a second, interoperable
implementation for standardization of OpenPGP.  Its sad that the
interoperable SSH was written for Pilots, since it uses some libraries
there that are not portable.

| > Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
| > to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
| > conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
| > cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
| > completely economical.
| 
| This is more secure I agree.  The real kicker with this problem is
| people who turn on encrypt to self -- I don't want messages with
| encrypt to self (an extra door into the message) on them in my
| mailbox, nor coming over the wire headed to me.

Pretty Good, not Perfectly Strong.

Never underestimate the value of pretty good security.  The bad guys
use scanners that need to work in real time; even 40 bit crypto with a
30 second delay creates huge headaches.  I see a PGP encrypted
message, even with encrypt to self on as pretty good.  Sure, its not
sealed with a two color wax seal in a tyvek envelope, but its pretty
good.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume

From berezina at qed.net  Wed Nov  5 03:23:05 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:23:05 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
Message-ID: <01bce9da$dad58560$357d8dcc@Berezina>

From: Lizard :
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
>pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

Her Muse is Fear. She has that in common with her Christian allies.

Paul

Is this the progression of our lives
                                  or merely a comment on them?

From mark at unicorn.com  Wed Nov  5 04:01:02 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (mark at unicorn.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:01:02 +0800
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
Message-ID: <878730951.18011.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>

Tim May quoted from macweek:
>"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
>allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
>encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
>isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
>regulations.""

However, this doesn't seem to work, unless I'm mistaken about CMR
enforcement and the SEC regulations. CMR will only allow the snoops 
to read incoming email, not outgoing, and hence if Joe Blow at 
Foo-Bah.com wants to send me some handy insider trading tips CMR will 
not stop them. So this seems to be another justification for CMR 
which just doesn't make sense.

    Mark

From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Wed Nov  5 04:41:05 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:41:05 +0800
Subject: Need info! / Re: Export a random number, go to jail
In-Reply-To: <199711040106.CAA04679@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711051229.HAA09540@upaya.multiverse.com>

Anonymous writes that I wrote:

: > >If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
: > >pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
: > >that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
: > >contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
: > >authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
: > >all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
: > >EAR.
: > 
: > "Export a random number, go to jail."

And then asked:

: 
: Is it legal to export '37'?
: How about '148'?
: '276'?
: '3,289,534'?
: '6.33458'?

Perhaps I was not clear enough.  The U.S. government's classifications
that I wrote about had to do with one-time pad programs, not the pads
themselves.  

I know of nothing official that says that the pads themselves are
exportable, but there is nothing in the regulations that suggests they
are not.  Random number and encrypted messages are not regulated by
the U.S. export regulations; only ``encryption software'' is
regulated.  So far as I know the government has never claimed that
one-time pads are, or are not, subject to the export regulations.

If anyone knows of a governmental classification relating to the
export status of one-time pads themselves, I would be very grateful
for a reference.

Thanks,
Peter
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists

From mark at unicorn.com  Wed Nov  5 05:08:56 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (mark at unicorn.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:08:56 +0800
Subject: Teaching Kids To Love Big Brother
Message-ID: <878734718.23058.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>

>From the Infowar Web site:

BRISBANE, Nov 2 AAP - Special computer software will stop Queensland 
school children accessing pornography on the Internet as schools are 
connected to the worldwide web over the next year, Education Minister 
Bob Quinn said today. 

[deletia]

"Students will not be permitted to deviate down the many unsavoury side 
roads off the information superhighway," Mr Quinn said in a statement. 

"We don't want children exposed to pornography. We don't want them learning 
how to make bombs. We don't want them gambling in cyberspace and we don't 
want them wasting their valuable time on silly games and other pointless pursuits." 

[deletia]

Attempts to access prohibited sites on school Internet terminals would 
trigger an automatic alarm monitored by Education Queensland's network administrators. 

Mr Quinn said e-mail would also be scrutinised and messages with 
prohibited words or phrases automatically directed to administrators. 

[deletia]

The monitoring system would also monitor traffic patterns used by 
Queensland's 450,000 students and 30,000 teachers, he said. 

>>> END

Shame about the export restrictions, or this would be a great market
for PGP's new snoopware.

    Mark

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Nov  5 05:48:19 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:48:19 +0800
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
In-Reply-To: <878730951.18011.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <199711051331.NAA01409@server.test.net>

Mark Grant  writes:
> Tim May quoted from macweek:
> >"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
> >allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
> >encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
> >isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
> >regulations.""
> 
> However, this doesn't seem to work, unless I'm mistaken about CMR
> enforcement and the SEC regulations. CMR will only allow the snoops 
> to read incoming email, not outgoing, and hence if Joe Blow at 
> Foo-Bah.com wants to send me some handy insider trading tips CMR will 
> not stop them. So this seems to be another justification for CMR 
> which just doesn't make sense.

I think that there is also a facility in the pgp5.5 for business
client to add yet another recipient: the sending companies snoop key.

I also got the impression that the policy enforcer could be set up to
bounce mail internally which did not have this extra recipient.

(Note, not having pgp5.5 for business to play with I am going on what
others have said.)

So now you've got mail headed out encrypted to 3 long term keys... if
the sender uses encrypt to self that will be 4 long term keys!  Then
the spooks in the sending country will want to be another recipient,
and spooks in the receiving country will also, bringing us to a total
of 6 long term keys.  Wew talk about security risks!

I thought it would be a good feature to put into the SMTP agent to
strip encrypt to self and recipients intended for internal snooping --
that would bring the recipients back down to 2 (or 4 with spooks).

Better still would be one recipient (as happens with adhoc local
escrow), and make that key a short term key which is burned after
expiry also.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

> 
> > Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> > convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> > exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
> let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
> porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
> facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).
> 
Take a young child to the mall. He or she sits on santa's lap.

Does the brain change at this point? The simple fact that the brain has
been altered in some way only proves that the child is concious.

-Brandon Crosby

From 94WD55P1211 at aol.com  Thu Nov  6 00:22:42 1997
From: 94WD55P1211 at aol.com (94WD55P1211 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:22:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: You Can Make $100 From Every FREE Phone Call !!!
Message-ID: <7492304188567@our.com>

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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov  5 09:05:53 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:05:53 +0800
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
In-Reply-To: <878730951.18011.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: 

At 6:31 AM -0700 11/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Mark Grant  writes:
>> Tim May quoted from macweek:
>> >"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
>> >allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
>> >encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
>> >isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
>> >regulations.""
>>
>> However, this doesn't seem to work, unless I'm mistaken about CMR
>> enforcement and the SEC regulations. CMR will only allow the snoops
>> to read incoming email, not outgoing, and hence if Joe Blow at
>> Foo-Bah.com wants to send me some handy insider trading tips CMR will
>> not stop them. So this seems to be another justification for CMR
>> which just doesn't make sense.
>

CMR and the Policy Management Agent can (and presumably will) be set to
scrutizine _all_  mail for "policy violations," outgoing as well as
incoming mail.  The PGP page has some descriptions of their products.

>I think that there is also a facility in the pgp5.5 for business
>client to add yet another recipient: the sending companies snoop key.
>
>I also got the impression that the policy enforcer could be set up to
>bounce mail internally which did not have this extra recipient.

Indeed, the Policy Management Agent enforces certain criteria, including
CMR, across _internal_ as well as external networks. "PGP� Policy
Management Agent for SMTP helps to protect an organization's vital
information by enforcing corporate security policies for email
communications across internal and external networks." (fromwww.pgp.com).

In more detail:

:"PGP Policy Management Agent works with standard SMTP mail servers,
intercepting and checking email to ensure that it conforms with desired
security
policies. A typical policy established for encryption software, for
example, is that
encrypted email must also be encrypted to a corporate message recovery key
to enable data recovery. Email that adheres to the policy is automatically
routed to the
 intended recipient. Email that fails to adhere to any of the established
policies is
 rejected by the server and sent back to the client with a configurable
SMTP error
 message, depending upon the policy failure. "

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From tm at dev.null  Wed Nov  5 09:11:25 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:11:25 +0800
Subject: ANNOUNCE: New Remailer - palnu@juno.com
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3460A427.5C0C@dev.null>

Andy Dustman wrote:
> 
> I've been pinging palnu for a day now, no response yet.

  Try looking at some dirty pictures while you do it...

IPingMyOwnPalnuTooMonger

From schear at lvdi.net  Wed Nov  5 09:14:41 1997
From: schear at lvdi.net (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:14:41 +0800
Subject: Smartcards - Drivers Licenses in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103001906.0356e594@rboc.net>
Message-ID: 

>There are plenty of things in the world of information privacy to get
>hysterical about; but please lets not proclaim them realities before
>they actually are...
>
>Having said that... if you live in the Garden State, get on the phone
>to your state legislators and express your concerns on this troubling
>idea and how it may be used before is DOES become something to scream
>about....

Has anyone done tests to see what effect putting a smartcard in a microwave
oven has ;-)

--Steve

From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov  5 09:19:31 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:19:31 +0800
Subject: Need info! / Re: Export a random number, go to jail
In-Reply-To: <199711040106.CAA04679@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

At 5:29 AM -0700 11/5/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>Anonymous writes that I wrote:

>: >
>: > "Export a random number, go to jail."

Actually, that was _my_ line, a riff on the old Cyphepunks joke, "Use a
random number, go to jail."

>And then asked:
>
>:
>: Is it legal to export '37'?
>: How about '148'?
>: '276'?
>: '3,289,534'?
>: '6.33458'?
>
>Perhaps I was not clear enough.  The U.S. government's classifications
>that I wrote about had to do with one-time pad programs, not the pads
>themselves.

As Shannon showed, the program to execute a one-time pad is ridiculously
simple: an XOR of two files or vectors. Not only can any student in any
country write such a program, it's built in to many systems.

(In a whimsical twist to Peter's own situation, he could describe in his
class what an XOR is and how it applies to one time pads, and he then would
have "conveyed" to any foreigners in his class all they need to implement a
truly unbreakable cryptosystem.)

With one time pads, the pads _are_ the only thing that matters!

While I was not seriously suggesting that one time pads would be barred
from export, I expect that permission to export one would not be granted if
applied for, for certain countries. (Someone could do this as an exercise,
by applying for an export permit to export a pad to some verboten
destination...of course, by giving a copy of the pad to the BXA/EAR folks,
one has just compromised the pad, and so....)

>I know of nothing official that says that the pads themselves are
>exportable, but there is nothing in the regulations that suggests they
>are not.  Random number and encrypted messages are not regulated by
>the U.S. export regulations; only ``encryption software'' is
>regulated.  So far as I know the government has never claimed that
>one-time pads are, or are not, subject to the export regulations.

My hunch is that if exports of one time pads ever became a concern for them
they'd find something in the BXA/EAR language to classify the pads as being
controlled.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From mark at unicorn.com  Wed Nov  5 09:36:33 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (mark at unicorn.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:36:33 +0800
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
Message-ID: <878750546.15974.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>

tcmay at got.net wrote:

> CMR and the Policy Management Agent can (and presumably will) be set to
> scrutizine _all_  mail for "policy violations," outgoing as well as
> incoming mail.  The PGP page has some descriptions of their products.

Hmm, I looked but couldn't find any real detail. If it can force
encryption to a company key for outgoing mail as well, it's even
worse than I thought.

    Mark

From mixmaster at as-node.jena.thur.de  Wed Nov  5 09:40:40 1997
From: mixmaster at as-node.jena.thur.de (Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:40:40 +0800
Subject: Libertaria in Cyberspace
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

A lot has been written about Libertaria in Cyberspace both before and
after Timothy May wrote the paper by the same name. I wonder how such a
Libertaria will form.

For a truly free communications medium we must have strong cryptography.
This is a given. Anonymity cannot be insured without strong cryptography
and the freedom of remailers or similar mechanisms to operate
unobstructed. Speech is never truly free unless it can be anonymous if
the author so chooses.  Who wants to espouse an opinion which will get
them flogged, either figuratively or literally, by their neighbors, their
government, or in some cases even their family? 

In my opinion, Mr. May is correct when he says that physical space is too
small and too exposed to outside intervention. A floating oil tanker can
be torpedoed, and a small island simply invaded. Libertaria cannot easily
build a standing army without inviting intervention by world powers and
being dubbed as terrorists or an organized gang. 

Yes, cyberspace does look much more promising. The amount of "space" in
cyberspace is unbelievably large. The amount of data I can store on one
gigabyte of hard drive is incredible by conventional standards. Data on
one computer can be made accessible through a network to any number of
other computers and it can further be distributed. And space is very cheap
in cyberspace. A three gigabyte hard drive runs around two hundred U.S.
dollars and that price is dropping all the time.

A truly free communications medium must allow its users to be anonymous. 
Speech is never truly free unless it can be anonymous if the author so
chooses. Who wants to espouse an opinion which will get them flogged,
either figuratively or literally, by their neighbors, their government, or
their own family? Who wants to die "under mysterious circumstances" or in
an automobile "accident" on an empty road? 

That an opinion is unpopular does not make that opinion wrong or invalid.
That an author does not want his "true name" attached to an opinion does
not diminish the value of that opinion. In some cases an author simply
does not want to attract attention regardless of whether such attention be
positive or negative. 

Strong cryptography is necessary for anonymity and the secure exchange of
information. A remailer system such as we have built is simply not secure
without the aid of cryptography. No network connection is secure when the
connection is visible to anyone who has the capability and curiosity to
listen in. 

A disturbing trend on the Internet today is the opinion that "good users
are known users" and that "good users have nothing to hide." This kind of
idea is offered by the government of the United States as well as many
users and system administrators. Such an opinion is detrimental to the
free flow of ideas and information.

The arguments that a "good users are known users" policy is necessary to
curb "computer crime" and network abuse are invalid in my opinion. A great
percentage of "computer crime" is simply due to lax security protocols in
the first place. When somebody can go into a university and run a sniffer
program to get hundreds of passwords the problem is not so much that the
user is running the program as it is that the data is available to the
user in the first place. When somebody can get a throw-away account and
post 30,000 ads to USENET the problem is not so much the abuser as it is
abusing the network as it is a fault in the system. When people post
mindless drivel to a network the problem isn't so much the poster as it is
that such drivel is read and ranked at the same level with more legitimate
postings. 

The first case of somebody running a packet sniffer can be avoided very
easily by using encrypted protocols and secure machines. If root
permissions can not be easily obtained on a machine and they are necessary
to install trojans one major avenue for our cracker is blocked. If all
network traffic is encrypted the cracker's job becomes all but impossible.
Sadly most people seem to send passwords and vital information in the
clear and most machines do not have encrypted communications tools
installed. The majority of TCP/IP traffic is cleartext. 

The second and third cases of network abuse and drivel propagation are
avoidable by various common sense means. First, news servers can be
altered to not propagate massively crossposted articles or articles which
are virtually identical and posted to many different groups over a short
time period. Second, readers of news can use reputation capital systems to
eliminate the remainder of off-topic postings and mindless drivel. If I
trust Bob's opinion and Bob says that a particular posting is rubbish
nobody has been censored unless Bob becomes very powerful and misuses 
that power to censor opinions he doesn't like without anybody knowing. 
However even that sort of abuse can be avoided by people being able to 
retrieve what they aren't normally seeing to occasionally check. 

And the argument that encryption must be outlawed or the government must
have access to decryption keys is rediculous. The law abiding citizens will
be monitored while the real terrorists, child pornographers, and tax evaders
will hide their data in sounds or pictures and use encryption anyway. 

Put simply, for Libertaria to truly thrive in Cyberspace many things need
to occur: 

First, encrypted network layers must become easily available. Nobody
sitting on a network backbone should be able to see what I am saying or
what anybody is saying to me. Authentication should be included here as
well. 

Second, traffic analysis must be made considerably harder if not thwarted
totally. When I go to http://www.cypherpunks.to an outside observer should
not be able to see that I was the one who filed this request by watching 
my TCP/IP traffic. A modification of CROWDS is perhaps appropriate here. 

Third, some form of true distributed and redundant data system must be
created. Eternity servers as currently implemented accomplish this to a
certain extent, but don't seem to quite reach the mark. Some form of
truly redundant, distributed, and secure filesystem which spreads across
many jurisdictions would be most appropriate, I think. There are many
technical problems involved in this however. As with anything else, such a
filesystem should be anonymous and should be very hard to shut down. 

Fourth, if indeed a programmer in the United States can use a crypto library
available outside the United States without infringing on ITAR then
programmers outside the United States should begin work on such a library.
Such a library should include many different algorithms for authentication,
encryption, and key exchange. This would allow programmers inside the United
States to legally write software which employs these technologies.

Fifth, existing news and mail readers on all major platforms need to be
altered to support anonymous remailers, encryption, decryption,
authentication, and key exchange. This should include, at minimum, Windows,
the Macintosh, and UNIX variants. 

Perhaps a whole new set of network protocols is necessary even if a bit
grandiose.

Tim May is correct: Libertaria will thrive in cyberspace. 

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From frantz at netcom.com  Wed Nov  5 09:46:28 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:46:28 +0800
Subject: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: 

At 2:32 PM -0800 11/4/97, Adam Back wrote:
>What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
>rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
>your passphrase.

Think about it for a minute.  randseed.bin is a place to store entropy.
Entropy is about uncertainty.  If I do a reversible transform (e.g.
encrypt) to randseed.bin, I still recover the entropy without reversing
(e.g. decrypting) the transform.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

From reusch at home.com  Wed Nov  5 10:24:18 1997
From: reusch at home.com (Reusch)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:24:18 +0800
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105131608.007f8100@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>

>"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
>explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
>period."
>
>-Declan

That's less than 1/10 porns per second! You would think that the
Carnegie Mellon Institute could afford a faster link.

-I am not myself today

From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Nov  5 10:39:21 1997
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:39:21 +0800
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971105100833.00c90b10@dnai.com>

At 09:23 AM 11/5/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>From: Lizard :
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
>===========
>Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
>finally noticed something about Christians....
>Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
>(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments,

But they've got the Sabbath on the wrong day. :)
And they certainly worship power more than they worship God, which is a
violation of #1.

 which is a hell of a
>lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
>Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
>how to conduct a Passover service! 

You follow the step-by-step instructions in the little blue Maxwell House
book with all the Hebrew words transliterarted into english syllables. Duh!

 Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
>is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
>same as being "kind of" pregnant.
>
So, you're saying my formerly Greek Orthodox friend who converted to
Judaism (and who I call up when I need to remember what holiday is what
'cause she knows this stuff better than me) and goes to the only synagogue
in New York with a lesbian Rabbi isn't a good Jew? Or, for that matter, my
entire family? (Concervative Jews, except for my Uncle who got 'born again'
and is now a minister in Virginia or something. But he produced ample
grandchildren, so he was forgiven.)

>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)

Given the dominant number of Red Sea Pedestrians on this list, I doubt most
of the comments can be classed as anti-semetic. Anti-Jodi, perhaps -- but
unlike the Jews, you've earned every barb tossed at you.

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 10:45:30 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:45:30 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks Web
Message-ID: <199711051825.TAA23083@basement.replay.com>

Cypherpunks International (CYPHERPUNKS5-DOM)
   23 Net St. Ste 31337
   New York, NY 10001

   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.ORG

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Burnham, Daniel E. A  (DEB48)  deab at FRESH.FLY.NET
      212-840-2600
   Billing Contact:
      Burnham, Daniel E. A  (DEB48)  deab at FRESH.FLY.NET
      212-840-2600

   Record last updated on 20-Sep-97.
   Record created on 04-Jul-97.
   Database last updated on 5-Nov-97 05:56:01 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS.OTEC.COM                  206.64.4.67
   NS1.EARTHWEB.COM             206.152.10.2

-----------------------------------------

Cypherpunks (CYPHERPUNKS4-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   US

   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.NET

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Shostack, Adam  (AS409)  adam at HOMEPORT.ORG
      (617) 354-4827
   Billing Contact:
      Shostack, Adam  (AS409)  adam at HOMEPORT.ORG
      (617) 354-4827

   Record last updated on 11-Apr-97.
   Record created on 11-Apr-97.
   Database last updated on 5-Nov-97 05:56:01 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS.HOMEPORT.ORG              205.136.65.205
   SATISFIED.APOCALYPSE.ORG     192.48.232.24

-----------------------------------------

cypherpunks (REMAILER-DOM)
   1819 Woolsey St.
   Berkeley, CA 94703

   Domain Name: REMAILER.NET

   Administrative Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric at SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1 at DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Billing Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric at SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526

   Record last updated on 16-Apr-97.
   Record created on 09-Nov-94.
   Database last updated on 5-Nov-97 05:56:01 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   FLYING.FISH.COM              140.174.97.13
   NS1.SAC.NET                  208.146.161.2

From bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us  Wed Nov  5 10:52:57 1997
From: bcrosby at mncs.k12.mn.us (Brandon Crosby)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:52:57 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711051838.MAA30824@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>

> 
> >More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
> >therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
> >that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
> >convenient.
> >
> >If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
> >for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
> >bottom-feeders taxed into penury.
> 
> Nonsense. And a dangerous course.
Yes.

> One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
> particularly strong opinion on either option.
> 
> But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
> opinions expressed by a church!
Agian, yes.

> One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
> anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30 years.
> Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism "into
> penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist Entity.

'Political Agenda' and free speech are two seperate things. Nowadays, free
speech is constantly being challanged by racism, bias and such. People sue
each other because they say something that makes someone feel bad. Churches
lie at the center of free speech, being awarded for their views by tax
exemption. Should 3M have tax exemptions because it gives people jobs?

While I do not want a debate over tax exemptions in churches, 'Free Speech'
may very well involve supporting canidates for positions in a democracy.
This is the very basis for elections. However, one begins to question this
reasoning when a church leader attempts to get into the government, using
the church's tax exemptions, for either support of the church, support of
self, or some illegal (or, at least, unethical) mix.

Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.

Uncle Sam (and his son, IRS) really shouldn't be applied to this subject:
What is free speech? Is tax exemption justifiable to all types of [free]
speech?

-Brandon Crosby

[Can you see the ghosts making snowmen?]

From eay at cryptsoft.com  Wed Nov  5 11:02:35 1997
From: eay at cryptsoft.com (Eric Young)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:02:35 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On 3 Nov 1997, Marc Horowitz wrote:
> Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
> about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
> copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
> duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
> and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
> copy them.

hmm... Besides the initial cost of a CD writer (which is coming down alot),
blank CDs cost $8AU (or about $5US).  I would not call that expensive relative
to the game cost (about $90AU).  On a double speed drive it takes about 30
minutes to duplicate a 600meg game, lots less for those that don't fill the
CD :-).

I think this is starting to become a real problem.

> I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem,
> outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.

Having visited some friends recently that had most of the recent interesting
games written onto a few CDs (multiple games on single CDs) I don't agree.

eric

From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Nov  5 11:06:27 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:06:27 +0800
Subject: entropy theft (Re: Privacy Software)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199711051828.SAA09379@server.test.net>

Bill Frantz  writes:
> 
> At 2:32 PM -0800 11/4/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
> >rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
> >your passphrase.
> 
> Think about it for a minute.  randseed.bin is a place to store entropy.
> Entropy is about uncertainty.  If I do a reversible transform (e.g.
> encrypt) to randseed.bin, I still recover the entropy without reversing
> (e.g. decrypting) the transform.

You might get some entropy from it -- but you won't get my PRNG state!
An attacker is welcome to the entropy, but may find it cheaper to
generate his own entropy than to copy some of mine.

There are certain attacks which become possible when an attacker can
snarf a copy of your randseed.bin, eg. the attacker can predict
session keys if he can guess your plaintext, and you are using an
environment which does not allow pgp2.x to sample your keystrokes (eg
integrated mail scripts).

randseed.bin is more sensitive than people treat it.  pgp2.x encrypts
private keys because people could use them to decrypt traffic, but it
does not encrypt the randseed.bin which could in some circumstances
also allow traffic to be decrypted.

An ergonomic disadvantage of encrypting randseed.bin is that you would
need to enter the passphrase to decrypt it before being able to
encrypt messages.  (You could make that optional -- and just use it in
encrypted form when you couldn't be bothered entropy shows through :-)

Encrypted public and private key rings is a separate good, and this
because it obscures who you are talking to and what your nyms are.
premail does this for you.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <3460C3E2.5395@sk.sympatico.ca>

john smith wrote:
> 
> Please tell me everything Sympatico has done to make you think they
> moniter your email. Everything please and i can make something of it.

  When I first saw your email re: Sympatico petition, I assumed
that Sympatico would be monitoring activity surrounding the
petition. I visted your web site on Oct 28 and surfed around.
When I got to the petition-signing page, I decided not to sign,
in order to see if those merely visiting the page were being 
monitored.

I pretty much forgot about it until I got an email from Sympatico Admin
which dealt with what appeared to be bogus concerns, and containing
vague threats of loss of access.
I checked out the headers on my past incoming and outgoing email
and found changes in the way it was routed and dealt with--changes
which started shortly after I visited your website. I confirmed
the results of my traffic analysis on my own account by checking
them against those of another Sympatico account whose records 
I have access to, and which is used as a 'control' because it is 
used only for very normal and boring communications by a very regular
jane/joe.
(The changes started late on Oct 28th, and I got the threat from
 Sympatico on Nov. 4th.)

As well, my follow up communications with Sympatico Admin resulted in
replies which contained further evidence that the claims they were
making in regard for the reasons for their actions were askew.

Sympatico is little more than a company that acts as a front for
the Canadian Telecos, so that they can continue to operate what are
basically monopolies, without appearing to do so.
SaskTel charged outrageous connect charges of ~$5.00 an hour out
in the boonies, as long as they could. When it became apparent that
they couldn't get away with it for much longer, Sympatico appeared
on the scene, as SaskTel's 'competition'.
The two entered into a sweetheart deal which effectively allows
Sympatico and SaskTel to operate a dual monopoly, by making it
difficult for small operators in the boonies to get a cut of the
action.

You may have noticed that 'Sympatico Admin' is pretty much synonymous
with the SaskNet Admin. Their bum-buddy relationship is covered by
only a thin veil of pretension.
SaskTel still manages to maintain a semi-monopoly in the big cities,
but their real power comes in the boondocks, where the Sympatico
deal allowing no toll-charges effectively cuts out the smaller
providers who can only offer services to a handful of in-area
customers.

The bottom line is that there are advantages to the basic infrastrucure
of the system being developed by a single entity, such as SaskTel, but
if that entity is allowed to pick and choose who receives preferred 
treatment, then they tend to do so in their own interests, and not in
the interests of the end users.
SaskTel charged $5.00/hr connect time in the boonies until there were
enough complaints that they made a deal with Sympatico to control the
market at slightly less monopolistic rates. People tend not to figure
out that the change from $5.00/hr to around $1.50/hr, practically
overnight, merely reflects that SaskTel charged over twice what was
reasonable, for as long as they could get away with it.

I checked the numbers, in regard to bandwidth costs, etc., to hook up
and provide an InterNet service, and found that the types of rates
you quote on your website are not out of line, but are not possible
if one cannot get the type of deal Sympatico gets.
  e.g. - I charge you $20/month for total access, but you pay $6.00/hr
        to SaskTel for long-distance charges, to connect.

SaskTel/Sympatico will continue to maintain a monopoly whose prices
will reflect how much they can charge before complaints force them
to move toward more truly competitive rates.
I applaud your efforts to make some noise in this regard, and hope
that they have the effect of forcing SaskTel/Sympatico to maintain
their monopoly at more reasonable rates than at present.

I am somewhat notorious in certain areas of the underground computer
movement, having been involved in the dissemination of a number of 
subversive on-line manuscripts, so I often get hackers and phreaks 
sending me confidential information from my ISP's.
I found it rather humorous that the original email from the Sympatico
Admin:
> Please note: this note is being sent to our security dept. as we
> deem this type of activity to be mis-use of the mail system and
> as such you could loose your access privileges.
...contained an 'additional' note from a hacker named the Evil-1,
who added:
> [And I'll make sure you get a copy! (;>} ~~ Evil-1]

Toto
~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn

From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov  5 11:30:03 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:30:03 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks Web
In-Reply-To: <199711051825.TAA23083@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>    Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.ORG
[...]
>    Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.NET
[...]
>    Domain Name: REMAILER.NET

Anonymous omitted CYPHERPUNKS.TO

Presumably because he couldn't figure out how to pull a whois for TO.

-- Lucky Green  PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Nov  5 11:36:51 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:36:51 +0800
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Eric Young wrote:
> 
> Having visited some friends recently that had most of the recent interesting
> games written onto a few CDs (multiple games on single CDs) I don't agree.

Things will get even better once DVD writers hit the street.

-- Lucky Green  PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

From tcmay at got.net  Wed Nov  5 11:55:03 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:55:03 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711051838.MAA30824@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: 

List members should know that there is a debate about taxation of
corporations. That is, a corporation gets taxed on its profits, then the
profits are again taxed when they are dispersed in some form to the owners
of the corporation (shareholders). Thus, every dollar Alpha Corporation
earns as profit (roughly, sales revenues minus costs of doing business) is
taxed at the corporate rate, which is roughly 40-45%. Federal and state.
Not counting property taxes, energy taxes, etc.

Then the profits are dispersed, in some cases, to the owners and
shareholders, in the form of dividends or the like. This "income" is then
again taxed, at rates between 35 and 45%, again depending on the state and
other circumstances.

Bear this in mind when thinking about taxing churches or other charitable
contribution-based entities.

At 11:38 AM -0700 11/5/97, Brandon Crosby wrote:

>While I do not want a debate over tax exemptions in churches, 'Free Speech'
>may very well involve supporting canidates for positions in a democracy.
>This is the very basis for elections. However, one begins to question this
>reasoning when a church leader attempts to get into the government, using
>the church's tax exemptions, for either support of the church, support of
>self, or some illegal (or, at least, unethical) mix.
>
>Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
>I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
>removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.

(There's an important difference between "taxing churches," i.e., applying
the income tax to churches, and eliminating the "tax deduction" for
charitably contributions. I assume the discussion has mostly been about
taxing churches, based on the comments about "taxing them into penury." Tax
deductibility has not been an important factor for many to consider, I
believe, due to the complications of claiming the deduction, the limits on
deductions, etc.)

Most churches operate mostly on charitable contributions.  So, imagine that
the Mormon Church, for example, loses its tax-exempt status and must pay
income taxes.

Imagine a worker for Novell, in Utah. Novell pays 40% of profits in taxes
and, for this example, disperses the rest. The dividends or proceeds of
sales of stock are taxed at about 30%. A Mormon employee gives money to the
Mormon Church.. The Mormon Church pays 30-40% on this "income" (perhaps
less "expenses"--churches are going to have to act like corporations!).

(By the way, one of the big problems with taxing churches on income is this
very issue: what counts as a "profit" for the church?)

Do the math: the initial dollar earned by Novell has been taxed 3 times (to
multiple tax collectors, federal, state, and maybe local). And 75% of it
has been taken in the process.

This is the danger of taxation in general, and taxation of donations in
particular.

As to what the church does with the money, who cares? Another way of
looking at a church is as a pooling of donations to accomplish some end,
e.g., saving souls, getting the U.S. out of Viet Nam, removing bad engrams,
etc. Why should people who have already been taxed twice (first the
corporations, then their dividends) be forced to pay a third set of taxes
just because they are donating?

Oh, and the same logic applies to a political action committee.

It doesn't make sense. Which is why we can expect to see it in the tax code
next year.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

From vipul at best.com  Wed Nov  5 12:22:55 1997
From: vipul at best.com (Vipul Ved Prakash)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:22:55 +0800
Subject: [news] TV station sets cybersex sting
Message-ID: <199711060101.BAA00649@fountainhead.net>

*** TV station sets cybersex sting

With cyperporn and cybersex ranking as sensational news items on
local TV stations, Fox's Los Angeles outlet has taken the trend a
step further by ensnaring adult sexual predators. KTTV's Fox 11 News
at 10 worked with a 21-year-old woman posing as a 14-year-old to
conduct cybersting operations that led to the arrests of five men.
KTTV used the unnamed woman as bait, having her enter online chat
rooms where she was immediately targeted. The station filmed the
online seductions as well as the arrests of the men, who included an
attorney, a doctor, a retired Army officer and an investigator for
the Dept. of Labor. See story at
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5777644-464

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 13:12:45 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:12:45 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711052039.VAA07597@basement.replay.com>

Brandon Crosby wrote:
> While I do not want a debate over tax exemptions in churches, 'Free Speech'
> may very well involve supporting canidates for positions in a democracy.
> This is the very basis for elections. However, one begins to question this
> reasoning when a church leader attempts to get into the government, using
> the church's tax exemptions, for either support of the church, support of
> self, or some illegal (or, at least, unethical) mix.

  The problem, as I see it, is that the laws regarding political
donations
and resulting political activity are different from the laws regarding
church donations, thus leading to the Christian Right using the
differences
to bypassing the restrictions that are placed on organizations
registered
as political groups.
  If 'Joe's Whorehouse and Illegal Drug Emporium' were to engage in the
same types of political activities that the 'We Wear Halos Church' did,
they would be subject to arrest and imprisonment for a wide variety of
violations of electoral law.

Vote-Reality is that most politicians would no sooner oppose a totally
unconstitutional law that promises to 'save the life of a single child',
than they would promote the prosecution of the 'good guys' for doing 
'bad things'.
Churches hold the same favored 'good guy' status as policemen who 
violate the civil rights of 'bad' citizens.

> Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
> I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
> removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.

  Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized 
entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
  Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.

Most of the issues/problems discussed on the Cypherpunks list are often
dealt with in terms of a combination of 'the way things are' vs. 'the
way things should be' vs. 'the way things are becoming'.
My view is that things have become so askew that any one of the above,
or any of them in combination, are not adequate for dealing with what
is to come in the near future.

The statement of one of the founding fathers, in regard to needing a
revolution every twenty years, or so, should be considered in the light
of the history of 'forest fires.'
Forest fires know that there should be a 'revolution every twenty years'
but humans do not. In our foolish wisdom, we decide to intervene in 
the natural course of things, to 'make things better'. We then proceed
to put the natural balance so far out of askew that, once we have 
'saved' the forests by not allowing forest kindling to burn for a
hundred years, the Forest Stock Market undergoes a major 'correction'.

The structure of American government, electoral laws, charitable tax
deductions, etc., are not inherently evil in themselves. The problem
is that they have all been subject to interference with the basic
underlying concepts, in efforts to improve them with a 'more is
better' mentality, that they are all ripe for burning.
["Welfare (charity) has resulted in many positive benefits. Hey! 
 I have a good idea! Let's put _everyone_ on welfare!]

The structure of government/laws/society is very similar to that
of the Internet, with everything being linked in ways that 
become increasingly complex once individual entities decide that
things need to be done a 'certain way' in their own self-interest,
instead of in the needs of the underlying infrastructure.
The problems multiply as the number of entities deciding which
'certain' way is the 'right' way becomes smaller.

"Spam is bad. _I_ am going to _save_ everyone from spam. Flames 
aren't so good, either. I'd better save you from 'flames' as
well. What constitutes a flame? Well, it all begins with
disagreement and, since I decide what is and is not a flame,
I guess that a flame could be defined as disagreement with
_me_!"
("In order to save the list from spam, we had to destroy the list.")

Now that we are all aware of the disruptive manipulations of the
Evil Dr. Vulis, perhaps he has changed his online persona to that
of 'Jodi Hoffman'. (:>}

NukeReality!
~~~~~~~~~~~~

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 13:17:25 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:17:25 +0800
Subject: [news] TV station sets cybersex sting
Message-ID: <199711052047.VAA08574@basement.replay.com>

Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>
> *** TV station sets cybersex sting
>
> With cyperporn and cybersex ranking as sensational news items on
> local TV stations, Fox's Los Angeles outlet has taken the trend a
> step further by ensnaring adult sexual predators. KTTV's Fox 11 News
> at 10 worked with a 21-year-old woman posing as a 14-year-old to
> conduct cybersting operations that led to the arrests of five men.
> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5777644-464

And Fox is going to do a similar entrapment sting on Catholic
priests, right?

From jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Wed Nov  5 13:41:45 1997
From: jvb at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:41:45 +0800
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711052039.VAA07597@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

--- respond to jim.burnes at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com --- (you know the drill)

> Brandon Crosby wrote:
> > Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
> > I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
> > removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.
> 
>   Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized 
> entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
> The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
> types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
> is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
>   Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
> Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
> becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.
> 

Ha!  This is pretty interesting.  Rather than the typical cypherpunk
approach of eliminating such inefficient and corrupting methods as
income taxation and tax exemption we are playing by their game.

The whole of HG Wells warning to society was that by systematically
altering the language, you alter the things that can be discussed.

The phrase "Tax exemption" is the newspeak form of "favored religious
group that isn't currently being financially punished for speaking
out against their masters".  The unspoken assumption in the
exempt/not-exempt argument is that you want federal income
taxation for anyone.  It also assumes there are "favored" groups vs.
"unfavored"  groups by the federal government.  Of course this all flies
directly in the face of limited constitutional government. 

So rather than bitch and moan about how the Churches are exempt, why
not rejoice in the fact that at least the churches are free from
taxation.  We are part of the way there.

Or start your own church.  ;-)

Jim

jim.burnes at n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com
(de-spamify if you wish to respond)

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Nov  5 14:18:32 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:18:32 +0800
Subject: Springer/Gates Merger
Message-ID: <199711052159.WAA18144@basement.replay.com>

CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS:
[CNN, Bienfait, Saskatchewan] BAR OWNERS at the Coaldust Saloon, 
in violation of Canadian bartender/customer confidentiality laws, 
revealed details of a planned merger between Micro$oft and the
Jerry Springer Show.
Computer magnate Bill Gates has signed a secret deal with Jerry
Springer to host a variety of WebTV productions which will be
InterActive variations on the 'Terminal Man' theme.
Springer, upset over the news media outcry over his proposed move
toward bringing his Barnum & Baily act into the mainstream news
forum, plans to take his revenge by using Micro$oft's domination
in the lowest-common-denominator market to parlay his lack of
good taste and journalistic ethics into a full-scale assasult on
the elitest mainstream news media which continues to ignore the
real desires of the general public.

Philip R. Zimmerman, former head of PGP, Inc., announced his new
position as Publicity Representative for 'New Reality Productions'
by saying, "Daddy always told me, 'If you're going to sell out a
little, you might as well sell out a lot--and make the BIG bucks.'"
PRZ told gathered reporters that the increasing interest shown by
television viewers in shows such as 'The World's Scariest Police
Chases' threatened the growing popularity of