Some interesting WWI Info
Anonymous
anon at anon.efga.org
Sun Dec 28 16:17:16 PST 1997
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Message 621 Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.TELENKO [MilTech Bard] at 08:05 EST
The Autumn 1997 issue of MILITARY HISTORY QUARTERLY had an article by
Norman Polmar and Thomas Allen on U.S. military plans to gas Japan during
Operation Olympic.
They ran accross references and put in a FOIA request. Eventually they
got a copy of a document labeled "A Study of the Possible Use of Toxic Gas
in Operation Olympic." The word "Retaliatory" was PENCILED in between
possible and use.
Apparently there were only five of these documents circulated during WW2.
After the war in 1947 the document was requested by the chemical corp for
historical study. In an attempt to "Redact" history, another document was
issued to change all the copies to emphisis "Retaliatory" rather than the
reality of the US planning to use it offensively in support of the invasion
of Japan.
The plan called for US heavy bombers to drop 56,583 tons of gas in the 15
days before the invasion of Kyushu than another 23,935 tons every 30 days
after that -- and that was just the STRATEGIC bombing campaign. Tactical
air support was in addition to that.
The ground weapons would contribute 1,400 tons of gas shells. At the time
of the invasion, 144,762 tons of gas shells were available. Another 9,356
tons would arrive every 30 days after the invasion.
Chemical Corps casualty estimates for this attack plan were 5 million dead
with another 5 million casualties. Ultimatly, it looks like the plan was
not approved, but prepared for since the gas to impliment it was sent to the
Pacific -- Likely as a back up to the A-bomb.
Had the Japanese carried out their plan to kill Allied POW's and
civilians, the Allied responce would have been horrific.
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Message 622 Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.HOLSINGER [Tom] at 09:53 EST
I wasn't aware there was an _offensive_ plan, but I knew of the scale of the
planned "retaliatory" use of gas. These things have a tendency to snowball.
Trent doesn't mention that the plan called for mass spraying of mustard gas
over urban areas _at the beginning_ of this attack. That isn't retaliation.
It is extermination. My estimate of 25-30 million Japanese dead during the
US conquest of Japan was based on such a use of chemical warfare, though
most of the dead, IMO, would have been from starvation and malnutrition-
boosted disease.
Trent's discovery here shows some elements of the US government planned
overt genocide on Japan. The coverup makes it appear that someone at least
felt guilty about it. I'd be a lot more comfortable if there was evidence
that these planners were then aware, via SIGINT, of the orders the Imperial
Japanese Army had already given, when the invasion of Japan started, to
murder all Allied POW's, all interned Allied civilians, and every Allied
civilian they could catch in areas occupied by the IJA.
My estimate is that the IJA could have murdered at least several million
Allied civilians a week for months. The A-bomb, IMO, saved more lives than
were lost in all of WWII.
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Message 623 Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.ZBARASCHU1 [Tony] at 10:28 EST
I believe that the U.S. considered using gas at Iwo Jima, but decided not
to.
Trent, any evidence that this was a seriously considered plan, as opposed to
a staff study that the planners drew up just to see what the necessary
requirements would be?
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Message 624 Wed Dec 17, 1997
JOHN.BARNES [John Barnes] at 11:35 EST
Moving poison gas in those quantities strikes me as reasonably good evidence
that somebody was doing more than playing paper games.
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Message 625 Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.TELENKO [MilTech Bard] at 13:12 EST
According to Allen and Polmar, the June 18, 1945 meeting where Harry
Truman was briefed on Operation Downfall -- the over all plan to invade
Japan -- by Adm King, Gen Marshall and the rest of the Joint Chiefs was
probably when the topic was broached.
We know now that the decision to drop the atomic bomb was made then,
although the notes for the meeting only refered to "undisclosed topics.".
On 21 June 1945, orders were issued by the Army to produce and ship the
necessary quantities of war gas to the Pacific Theater to impliment the
plan.
The key passage from that Gas Attack Plan was:
"Gas is the one single weapon hitherto unused which we can have readily
available which assuredly can greatly decrease the cost in American lives
and should materialy shorten the war."
I'd say that this meeting decided that the US was unwilling to take the
kind of mass casualties, using Okinawa as a model, that a conventional
landing would cost and any available WMD would be used to reduce American
casualties.
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Message 626 Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.HOLSINGER [Tom] at 21:43 EST
Trent,
Your 625's logic is convincing. The timing makes it look as though there
was a Presidential decision on June 18 to conduct a strategic gas attack on
Japan in preparation for the invasion, if the A-Bomb didn't work.
This presents a completely different picture than what I had imagined. I
thought the Japanese would have initiated genocide in the event of invasion.
Instead there is fair evidence that we would have started it.
My recollection is that Imperial Headquarters gave the genocide orders to
Field Marshal Teruachi in July.
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Message 627 Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.TELENKO [MilTech Bard] at 22:39 EST
The thing that sticks out for me is that Truman's choice was not Invasion
or the A-Bomb. It was Gas, Invasion and the A-Bomb.
Any way promised a great deal of dead.
Truman chose the route that was most likely to shock the Japanese into
surrendering with the least loss of life. History will judge him
differently in the long term because of the finding of this document. This
also explains his expressed strong faith in having taken the correct corse
of action.
Still, we don't know exactly what was said on the subject of gas in that
meeting. I suspect the full, genocidal, aspects of the gas attack plan
would not have been implimented until Operation Coronet. That is, after the
Japanese started murdering Allied POW's and interned/occupied civilians.
Operation Olympic -- the invasion of Kyushu -- would probably have been
limited to gasing the beaches and air fields after a series of raids by the
carrier fleets. To lay the proper political ground work for the use of gas,
the US Government would have released the newsreels of the Kamikazi attacks
on the US Navy off of Okinawa and Japan.
The shock that would have delivered to the American public would have
prepared them for the arguement that gas was needed to win.
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Message 628 Wed Dec 17, 1997
L.TILTON [Lois] at 23:18 EST
I wonder if there were not contingency plans for gassing Berlin. The A-bomb
was originally proposed to be used against Berlin, but it wasn't ready in
time.
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Message 629 Wed Dec 17, 1997
JOHN.BARNES [John Barnes] at 23:26 EST
There was also some hope, in late '43 when things looked like they were
coming together faster than they did, of either using the bomb to create a
no-resistanc e landing area, or using it on a rail center to prevent
reinforcement for D-Day.
I think the biggest hope was really just to get it before Hitler, who, had
the Nazis not been such nitwits, had what looked like overwhelming odds of
getting there first.
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Message 630 Thu Dec 18, 1997
T.ZBARASCHU1 [Tony] at 00:43 EST
Orders to produce and ship that much gas? OK, I'll accept that as evidence
that this was more than a "staff plan". OTOH, we did keep a fair amount of
gas on hand in the European theater for retaliatory purposes, but this
particular document does look like it was a bit more than retaliatory.
Thank God for the atom bomb.
Thank God I didn't have to make that decision.
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Message 631 Thu Dec 18, 1997
T.TELENKO [MilTech Bard] at 12:48 EST
The American Army in WW2 carried around huge amounts of war gas as a
matter of course. In Early 1943, MacArther had at his disposal in the South
West Pacific area the following:
o 15,000 gas Howitzer shells
o 19,000 gas mortar shells
o 22,500 five inch rocket shells
o 18,000 aerial bombs of various sizes
o 6,500 aerial spray tank kits.
By the end of 1945, the US had 4.4 million gas artillery shells, 1 million
mortar rounds, 1.25 million gas aerial bombs and 112,000 aerial spray tank
kits.
What counts is policy and the intent to follow it.
The article mentions that Gen Marshall brought up the use of gas in a 29
May 1945 meeting with War Sec. Stimpson. He wanted to use gas against the
"outer japanese islands" with less than our best war gas (Mustard gas) to
"take the fight out of" the Japanese soldier and reduce American casualties.
He then commissioned a the study I have been quoting using chemical
warfare officers and USAAF targetiers -- one Col and three Capt. -- who
introduced the major strategic gassing angle. I got the impression that
they wanted to use their toy to the fullest, rather than smooth the invasion
via reduced American casualties.
I suspect my idea of military gassing only -- landing beaches and
airfields -- during Operation Olympic was the most likely policy result.
After the Japanese Army went on its killing spree, all bets are off.
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